14000 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Christine, Good questions. --- christine_forsyth Dear Sarah, Larry and All, > > If I read a post that causes dosa to arise, is the actual post, or > the 'seeing' of that post the result of kamma, of something I have > done in the past? ..... The ‘seeing’ of that post is vipaka, result of kamma. Remember it justs sees visible object and is either kusala (good) or akusala (bad) result, depending on the ‘something done’. ..... >Or is the 'feeling' I feel the result of kamma? ..... At the moment of seeing itself, the feeling accompanying it is neutral feeling. The feeling accompanying the citta (i.e. seeing in this case) is of the same jati (kind or nature), so in this case, the neutral feeling is also vipaka, result of kamma. ..... > Or is the type of personality I have that would tend to get upset at > seeing that type of post the result of kamma? ..... Now we move on to accumulations, tendencies or type of personality (remembering there isn’t a person, of course). After the seeing has fallen away -- it’s so very brief--, there may be lobha (attachment) or dosa(aversion) or any other ‘reaction’ to what was seen in the same eye door process or subsequent mind door process. At this stage, the lobha or dosa is not the result of kamma and not inevitable in the way the seeing experience is. Indeed the lobha or dosa rooted cittas at this stage may prompt new kamma to be performed. ..... >If the feeling I feel, > or the personality I have, is the result of kamma - isn't the deck > rather stacked against us, a sort of kammic vicious circle, causing > us to experience more and more dosa? ..... Also, I should add, the feeling which accompanies the dosa is unpleasant feeling as we all know. As I mentioned, the feeling --and indeed all cetasikas (mental factors)-- are of the same jati as the citta. So in this case, the feeling is also not the result of kamma, but akusala (unwholesome) and likely to role with the citta ‘causing’ rather than ‘resulting from’ akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action). I believe it’s very important in our study of dhamma to understand the difference between the diffrent jatis (kinds) of cittas and cetasikas and to know what is cause and what is result. I hope this helps a little. Please let me know if I’ve confused you further. (Kom, I’ll rely on you to let us know if I make any misakes in any details. Sometimes, like now, I write in a bit of a rush). Sarah p.s. Chris, I was tempted to say “I hope it wasn’t one of my silly posts that caused the dosa”. We all understand what this means conventionally. In reality, however, a post never causes dosa. Only the accumulation of kilesa (defilements) which arise on account of what is seen, heard and so on, can prompt dosa. Nonetheless........wishing you panna (wisdom) rather than dosa on account of what is seen when you read DSG messages;-) ====================================================== 14001 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply, I think you have sorted it out for me. :) No, your posts never 'cause' dosa only panna. Dsg posts on Dhamma may be tough to digest sometimes, but Truth is like that. metta, Christine --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Good questions. > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, Larry > and All, > > > > If I read a post that causes dosa to arise, is the actual post, or > > the 'seeing' of that post the result of kamma, of something I have > > done in the past? > ..... > The `seeing' of that post is vipaka, result of kamma. Remember it justs > sees visible object and is either kusala (good) or akusala (bad) result, > depending on the `something done'. > ..... > >Or is the 'feeling' I feel the result of kamma? > ..... > At the moment of seeing itself, the feeling accompanying it is neutral > feeling. The feeling accompanying the citta (i.e. seeing in this case) is > of the same jati (kind or nature), so in this case, the neutral feeling is > also vipaka, result of kamma. > ..... > > Or is the type of personality I have that would tend to get upset at > > seeing that type of post the result of kamma? > ..... > Now we move on to accumulations, tendencies or type of personality > (remembering there isn't a person, of course). > > After the seeing has fallen away -- it's so very brief--, there may be > lobha (attachment) or dosa(aversion) or any other `reaction' to what was > seen in the same eye door process or subsequent mind door process. At this > stage, the lobha or dosa is not the result of kamma and not inevitable in > the way the seeing experience is. Indeed the lobha or dosa rooted cittas > at this stage may prompt new kamma to be performed. > ..... > >If the feeling I feel, > > or the personality I have, is the result of kamma - isn't the deck > > rather stacked against us, a sort of kammic vicious circle, causing > > us to experience more and more dosa? > ..... > Also, I should add, the feeling which accompanies the dosa is unpleasant > feeling as we all know. As I mentioned, the feeling --and indeed all > cetasikas (mental factors)-- are of the same jati as the citta. So in this > case, the feeling is also not the result of kamma, but akusala > (unwholesome) and likely to role with the citta `causing' rather than > `resulting from' akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action). > > I believe it's very important in our study of dhamma to understand the > difference between the diffrent jatis (kinds) of cittas and cetasikas and > to know what is cause and what is result. I hope this helps a little. > Please let me know if I've confused you further. > > (Kom, I'll rely on you to let us know if I make any misakes in any > details. Sometimes, like now, I write in a bit of a rush). > > Sarah > > p.s. Chris, I was tempted to say "I hope it wasn't one of my silly posts > that caused the dosa". We all understand what this means conventionally. > In reality, however, a post never causes dosa. Only the accumulation of > kilesa (defilements) which arise on account of what is seen, heard and so > on, can prompt dosa. Nonetheless........wishing you panna (wisdom) rather > than dosa on account of what is seen when you read DSG messages;-) > ====================================================== > > 14002 From: onco111 Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Sarah (and Jon), Christine's comments may be referring to what's been going on at d- l... I really appreciate the way you moderate the list, so that the discussion stays focussed on Dhamma. With much appreciation, Dan > p.s. Chris, I was tempted to say "I hope it wasn't one of my silly posts > that caused the dosa". We all understand what this means conventionally. > In reality, however, a post never causes dosa. Only the accumulation of > kilesa (defilements) which arise on account of what is seen, heard and so > on, can prompt dosa. Nonetheless........wishing you panna (wisdom) rather > than dosa on account of what is seen when you read DSG messages;-) > ====================================================== 14003 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Goofy Glorious --- onco111 wrote: > People are much more perceptive than horses, That's a pretty speciest thing to say isn't it? Not only that, but difficult to prove. The more people I get to know, the more I doubt their presumed intellectual superiority over other species. My cat for example is much more perceptive than most people. Without any explicit training, he has a fairly sophisticated ethical system and ability to learn rules of the house without being told more than once. Some examples: 1) he quickly learned not to go on the bed, or other types of behavior that is unwelcome. 2) when he is treated in a way he doesn't like, instead of complaining or fighting back, most of the time he just calmly walks out of the room 3) With little children, he tolerates some obnoxious behavior like pulling his tail that he absolutely would not put up with from adults. 4) when play fighting with me, he never scratches, bites, unless I exceed a certain threshold of roughness. I've observed him many times when we're play fighting and I can see the physical cues of his temper rising, but he always observes his honor system of not retaliating with something more severe than he receives. 5) my cat remembers. when he sees my friend, who did an injustice to him a few years ago, he will noticably avoid eye contact with my friend when they greet. He also does that eye contact avoidance thing after he's been punished (unjustly, or at least perceived by him as unjust). -fk 14004 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections I, no 3 Perfections Ch I, no 3. Before one listened to the Dhamma, akusala citta was likely to arise often, and one did not understand at all how to develop the eightfold Path. When someone has listened to the Dhamma, he acquires understanding of the development of paññå and of the eightfold Path. However, when people have gained already some degree of understanding, they can notice that very seldom in a day sammå-sati, right awareness, arises and is aware of the characteristics of realities. Therefore, it is necessary to truly know oneself and to find out the reason why right awareness arises very seldom. It may be that someone has understood the right way of the development of paññå that can eradicate the wrong view of self and realize the four noble Truths. However, what is the reason that right awareness does not develop in accordance with one¹s understanding of the Path? The reason is that everybody has defilements, and this can be compared to suffering from illness. We are like a sick person who does not know how to recover and gain strength. We see that the way we have to travel is extremely far, but when our body is not healthy and strong we cannot travel all the way through and reach our destination. The eightfold Path is the long way we have to travel in order to reach our destination, that is, the realization of the four noble Truths. If we do not examine and know ourselves, we are likely to be a person who knows the right Path but who cannot go along it. We are like someone who does not know the way to gain strength and recover from his ailments. Therefore, listening to the Dhamma and considering it so that we gain understanding, can be compared to the situation of a person who looks for the right medicine to cure his illness. Someone who does not listen to the Dhamma and does not even know that he is sick, will not look for medicine to cure his illness. As soon as he finds the Dhamma and has right understanding of it, he is like a person who has found the right medicine that cures his illness so that he has sufficient strength to travel a long way. The dhammas that make the citta healthy and strong so that one can walk the eightfold Path all the way through are the ten perfections. We should carefully consider the perfections so that we have correct understanding of them. If we do not consider them we may listen to the Dhamma but we may not develop the perfections. We may listen to the Dhamma every day, but we should know and consider why we listen: we should listen with the firm determination and intention to have right understanding of the Dhamma so that we can apply it, and evenso apply it during each life to come. We should know the right purpose of listening: the development of paññå that can eradicate defilements. In this way the perfections can begin to develop while we listen. When we listen, the perfection of determination can develop. We should know the meaning of the perfection of determination; without mental strength one cannot fulfill this perfection. Some people who perform kusala, such as generosity, express their determination by prayer, but they do not know the meaning of determination. When one has the firm, unshakeable determination to reach the goal, the eradication of akusala, determination is a perfection, and this is an essential condition for the development of paññå. If we do not study the perfections, we may continue to just listen without knowing the right purpose of it, and because of this we surely shall not realize the four noble Truths. We should consider whether the perfections begin to develop while we listen to the Dhamma. Whenever we have the firm determination to listen with the right purpose, the development of paññå, we develop and accumulate all ten perfections so that they can reach accomplishment. ***** 14005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Dear Deanna, I am really glad you are so interested in the perfections. Finally when it is completed, it will be on different websites. With appreciation, Nina. op 25-06-2002 17:58 schreef Deanna Shakti Johnson op <>: > > Dearest Nina, > Thank you so much for posting from Ms. Sujin's book on the paramis. > Eventually will the whole book be available in English? > I have been very interested in the perfections for sometime but have not had > much access to them. Thank you for sharing this valuable information. I 14006 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Rob Ep, do not leave. Dear Rob Ep, Lodewijk told me to plead with you not to leave. You with all your interest, also in Pali, should not leave. We shall miss you. As Sarah explained before, sometimes things happen, people creep in to advertise. It cannot be helped. But you could do as Howard says, change your status. Web only. Best wishes, Nina. op 25-06-2002 18:12 schreef Robert Epstein op <>: > Dear Friends, > I am receiving too many emails, so please remove me from your mailing list. > 14007 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Larry Dear Larry, there are different methods of teaching by which different aspects are shown. The study of the sequence of cittas in processes helps you to see, at least in theory, that there is not one lasting moment of seeing but in fact many different cittas performing their functions within the eye-door process. We cannot count cittas nor know them all. A. Sujin said that panna can shoot from far and very fast. Only panna can know more, but our panna is not the Buddha's panna. Gogler explained very clearly the rapidity of cittas succeeding one another by way of the fast turning fan. The Dependent Origination shows causes and effects in life. When we study the processes it may be confusing to try to combine this with P.S., because the latter is so complex, and it has many aspects. It would be better to separate different subjects of study. The study should not be tiring, like a burden. Gradually it all will become clearer. Best wishes, Nina. op 25-06-2002 02:48 schreef <> op <>: > Also, it seems that citta process scrambles the order of > paticcasamupadda. I'm wondering at what point there is contact. If it is > adverting consciousness, why does kamma vipaka come after that instead > of before? I think I'm getting these terms mixed up, but my brains are > spaghetti and I can't get it straightened out. 14008 From: goglerr Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Hi! Larry, wishing u well and fine. >L. From the objective point of view (citta as object) if one reason we don't cognize every citta is because of compaction, is there any way we can slow down the speed? If not, how did the Buddha discover these things? >L. From the subjective point of view (citta as subject) what is the "knowing mind"? Can we expand its knowing capabilities? What is it that we are experiencing if not cittas? I can see a little how slow the mind is. It's like living in the past, literally. G: First, let's look from the subjective point of view. The `knowing mind' is also cittas, is also a cognitive process. Other words the citta (subject) is detecting the citta (object), or detecting itself. For e.g in the cittanupassana satipatthana, the knowing mind which `observe' the arising and passing away of the consciousness of associated with greed, hatred, delusion, thoughts, etc. To expand its knowing capabilities of the `knowing mind', in other words is to experience realities as they really are, is what the Buddha taught. The more we expand these capabilities, the less the defilements we will have, until finally the uprootment of all mental defilement. The way to expand it, then we come back to the core teachings, the Noble 8 Fold Path (sila ,samadhi panna) and the 4 Noble Truths through listening/reading, reflecting and most importantly `bhavana', repeatedly. The deeper the penetration of N8P and 4NT, the expansion of the knowing capabilities will be greater. You asked `What is it that we are experiencing if not cittas?'. What we are experiencing (daily, like now) is actually citta in one continous manner but we are not experiencing them as fleeting cittas where they change very fast in their most minutest form. But it does not mean we have to see them all the time. If we are able to experience them, in their minutest form, again and again, for a period of time, we began break away from from the grasping on the inherent notion of permanency, satisfaction and self/control where we unknowingly accumulated them since beginningless past. This is where bhavana comes in, expanding and exploring the `knowing mind' on the ocean of realities. Back to the objective view point. We can't slow down the speed of the cognitive process, it is beyond our `control', it takes its own course as in line with the nature of anatta. The `knowing' of each and different kinds of consciousnesses, the cognitive processes, the interelation between citta, cetasika and rupa, the conditions that are associated with them etc. comes from highly develop sort of viriya, sati and samadhi. Of course other noble factors are there too. Definitely this are not for beginners in the bhavana. A brief methodology on how one can detect a single kind of citta (or even cetasika); e.g. adverting, sense conciousness, bhavanga etc. As you know the cognitive process is flowing rapidly – different consciousnesses are arising and passing away. The meditator (conventionally used) focus his attention on the mind. He makes an intention only to see, let say, the adverting consciousness. If he is skilled in his concentration power and also having deep and dicriminative wisdom, this particular consciousness will keep arising and passing away in his mental `window' or in his `knowing' and others cosciousnesses will not be observable. He need to have dicriminative wisdom, if he doesn't, he can't differentiate one type of consciousness with another type of consciousness even he make that intention. Also the highly balanced concentrated power, is to able to hold the object (citta) strongly so that other distractions will not come in, and long enough for the panna to observe and scrutinize it. Then we can know the characteristics, functions and manifestations of that particular citta, a directly experince knowledge. Other words, since there are many objects, we are only looking at one object at one time. We use this method to `analyse' all kinds of cittas (and it's proceeses), all cetasikas, all rupas, their interconnections with one another, the interplay of conditions and nibbana too. The mind and body/Abhidhamma can be `studied' in this way. More can be spoken about it but `don't try these at home'! But Larry, the above methodology is only a `bonus' in bhavana, not the actual purpose of developing bhavana. I think I mention it in earlier post. The whole purpose of mental cultivation is to develop insight and wisdom, finally to eradicate greed, hatred and delusion. >L: I forgot that contact is a cetasika. It is also a link (nidana) in paticcasamuppada. If we say that patisandhi citta (rebirth) is vinnana and bhava nidanas, then would sense consciousness (vipaka) come before or after contact (phassa nidana)? Or is sense consciousness phassa nidana itself? G: I look at paticcasamupada on the big picture i.e. past lives, present life and future lives (as according to the nidana samyutta). I notice that the above question is not properly place. Patisandhi citta is patisandhi vinnana (rebirth consciousness), but is patisandhi citta, bhava (becoming) nidana ? I doubt so. I stand to be corrected from anyone out there. >L: Isn't this sense consciousness a result (vipaka) of sankhara nidana? If so it doesn't seem to arise according to the dependent arising sequence. If anything it seems to arise dependent on adverting consciousness. There's some confusion here between proximate cause and whatever the kamma cause is and how that fits into dependent arising. Put another way, how does citta process fit into the paticcasamuppada formula? G: Sense consciousness as one of the 3 factors of phassa, is in connection with present life. On the other hand, sankhara (kammic formations) has occurred in the past lives. Due to the kammic formations (from body, speech and mind), rebirth takes place in the present life. When we look at sankhara, we take the processes of cittas as a whole, (inclusive of adverting, sense cons., investigating, determining, javana, bhavanga etc.) where kamma were produce. As in abhidhamma, after adverting citta, will arise sense citta, true! Look from another angle. Because we were ignorant and created all forms of kamma in the past, therefore in this life, the cittas proliferates to give rise to this and that. The proliferation of cittas too (which are based upon ignorance), also creating kamma for the future, therefore future birth takes places. And the cycle repeats itself, until we uproot greed, hatred and delusion. Can I say cittas fit into every piece of puzzle in paticcasamupada? Hmmm…… let's see what the crowd say! >L: If this sense consciousness is the result of kamma, is the object of the consciousness (the rupa) also a result of kamma? G: It may or may not be so, but I'm not sure because I don't really know the actual function of kamma. What I know, not everything is conditioned by kamma. >L: If so, doesn't that make the whole citta process a result (vipaka) because every citta function in the process has the same object? If the rupa is not a result, then what is it about the sense consciousness that is resultant? G: If you are talking on conventional term `the same object' it is ok, pass! But if we are looking from the perpective of a citta process, it is not the same object but different objects. Objects and cittas are actually conditioning each other. Briefly, 1) the cittas that cause rupas to arise 2) cittas that cause other cittas to arise 3) rupas that causes cittas to arise and 4) rupas that cause other rupas to arise. >L: Thanks for all your help, G: Perhaps not helping u that much, more like muddling everything up! He! He! goglerr 14009 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Rob Ep, do not leave. Dear Nina & Lodewijk, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > Lodewijk told me to plead with you not to leave. You might not have read the end of my message to Rob Ep. It turns out (see message below) it was just a misunderstanding and he never intended to leave. He thought he was replying to Ken and Visakkha asking to be taken of their mailing list only, not realizing the circulars were coming from DSG. Sarah ====== --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Ha ha, Sarah, > this is a funny misunderstanding. > > I believe I received those emails in my 'in-box' and was asking to be > removed from > > *their* list, not dsg. I was not aware that these emails were > originating from > dsg and had infiltrated the list. > > I have no desire to be removed from dsg, nor do I want to be on 'no > emails!' > Isn't this silly? If you can put me back onto 'emails' I am happy to > receive them > in my email box. I have a special file for dsg posts that takes them > directly > into the folder, and I can then worry about which ones to read!!!! > > well, this has been quite a silly thing. ........... And please put me back on 'emails' setting, so I can get > the full > overwhelming volume of dsg messages! 14010 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:22am Subject: ADL ch. 13 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 13 (3) In the process of citta, the panca-vinnana is succeeded by sampaticchana-citta. This citta, which performs the function of sampaticchana (receiving the object), receives the object after the panca-vinnana has fallen away. Sampaticchana-citta is ahetuka vipaka. Two kinds of citta can perform this function: one is akusala vipaka and one is kusala vipaka. Kamma does not only produce the dvi-panca-vinnanas (the five pairs) and sampaticchana-citta, it also produces santirana-citta (investigating-consciousness) which succeeds sampaticchana-citta. Santirana-citta performs in the sense-door process the function of santirana (investigating the object); it is ahetuka vipakacitta. . As we have seen (Ch. 9), there are three kinds of santirana-citta which can perform the function of investigating: 1. Santirana-citta which is akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha. 2. Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha. 3. Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by somanassa (in case the object is extraordinarily pleasant). Santirana-citta is succeeded by votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness). Votthapana is another function of citta; the votthapana-citta determines the object in the sense-door process. After it has determined the object it is succeeded by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. The conditions through which it arises are different from the conditions for santirana-citta which is produced by kamma. Votthapana-citta is not vipaka and it is not kusala or akusala but it is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. As we have seen, the votthapana-citta is actually the mano-dvaravajjana-citta which performs the function of votthapana in the sense-door process and is then called votthapana-citta. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta performs two function in the mind-door process it performs the function of adverting to an object through the mind-door, and in the sense-door process it performs the function of votthapana. If we do not know about the cittas arising in processes and their different conditions we may think that there is a 'self' who decides at certain moments to do good deeds or bad deeds. In reality there is no person, no 'self' who decides, but there are cittas which are conditioned by accumulations of kusala and akusala. Cittas experience pleasant or unpleasant objects through the senses and through the mind-door. If someone has accumulated a great deal of lobha and dosa, lobha-mula-cittas are likely to arise when the object is pleasant and dosa-mula-cittas are likely to arise when the object is unpleasant. These cittas arise because of conditions, they are not self, they are beyond control. However, through the study of Dhamma and above all through the development of 'insight' there can be conditions for kusala cittas and then there is 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) to the object. No matter whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant, in the sense-door process the votthapana-citta can be succeeded by kusala cittas and in the mind-door, process the mano-dvaravajjana-citta can, after it has adverted to the object, be succeeded by kusala cittas. We are inclined to think that in the process of cittas, akusala vipakacittas which experience an unpleasant object should necessarily be followed by akusala cittas, since we let ourselves be ruled by the objects we experience. However, if there is 'wise attention' there is no aversion towards unpleasant objects. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise because of conditions which are entirely different from the conditions for vipakacittas. Akusala vipaka and kusala vipaka are the result of kamma. We wish to control our vipaka, but this is impossible. When it is time for akusala vipaka, we cannot prevent it from arising. We should realize that our life is nama and rupa, which arise because of condition and fall away immediately. If we would only realize that vipaka is but a moment of citta which falls away as soon as it has arisen, we would be less likely to have aversion towards unpleasant objects we experience. One may wonder whether it is necessary to know in detail about cittas and their functions. Is it not enough to know only about kusala cittas and akusala cittas? Apart from kusala cittas and akusala cittas we should know also about other kinds of cittas which perform different functions in the processes of cittas and which arise because of different conditions. Then there will be more understanding of the fact that there is no self which can direct the arising of particular cittas at particular moments. There is no self which can decide for kusala cittas. People have different accumulation and thus, when an object presents itselt, there will, in the process of cittas which experience it, be the arising of kusala cittas or akusala cittas, according to one's accumulations. When, for example, different people smell delicious food, some people may have akusala cittas while others may have kusala cittas. Those who are attached to food are bound to have lobha-mula-cittas. In the case of someone who has accumulations for dana (generosity), kusala citta may arise when he has smelled the food ; he may wish to offer food to the monks. In the case of others again there may be kusala cittas with panna which realizes smell, for example, as only smell, a rupa which is not some 'thing', which is devoid of 'self'. If there can be 'wise attention' to the object at this moment, there will be more conditions for 'wise attention' in the future. 14011 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Congee and enlightenment Dear Sarah, this info on congee is great! A friend of mine has a sick squirrel with what looks like a tumor on its neck. I'm going to tell her to feed it congee. If it's good for chickens and attorneys, it's probably good for squirrels. thanks a lot, Larry 14012 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Sarah, Christine, Nina, & Gogler, Thanks for your thought provoking answers, but I'm still a little doubtful and confused. Concerning the nature of vipaka cittas, I'm too bewildered to even formulate a coherent question. So let's leave it for now. Maybe further study of kamma will help. The ideas concerning the 'potential' relationship between citta process and paticcasamuppada arose from several passages in Visuddhimagga that discussed the details of birth. There patisandhi was definitely given as the vinnana nidana and in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary there was also a reference to a correspondence between patisandhi and bhava nidana, but no explanation or discussion. I was just guessng that citta process would fit into, or follow the logic of, paticcasamuppada. Maybe someone could look in Patisambhidamagga or some of the commentaries. There might be more info there. Beyond that, any info on how different kinds of conditional relations fit together would be helpful. Lastly, concerning why all consciousnesses are not conscious, this question has to do with the nature of experience and what a citta actually does, or is. Perhaps, as Goglerr suggested, the best way to proceed here is with tranquility and insight. I guess that is enough projects for this weekend. Best wishes to all, Larry 14013 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections by A. Sujin, Ch 1, no. 1 Dear Shakti, --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > Dearest Nina, > Thank you so much for posting from Ms. Sujin's book on the paramis. > Eventually will the whole book be available in English? > I have been very interested in the perfections for sometime but have not > had much access to them. ..... You may also like to read Nina's own "Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" which can be found at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm I think you'll find they are complimentary and Nina's own writing will assist the reading of the translation of K.Sujin's. (This is the copy of Perfections Christine was referring to reading on her flights, I think). If this is too much on Perfections, leave Nina's til later. Perhaps we'll also have a chance to meet you in Bkk in September with Rob.... we'll see. I know there is one long weekend. Glad to see your interest, Sarah ====== 14014 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Congee and enlightenment Hi Larry, --- <> wrote: > Dear Sarah, this info on congee is great! A friend of mine has a sick > squirrel with what looks like a tumor on its neck. I'm going to tell her > to feed it congee. If it's good for chickens and attorneys, it's > probably good for squirrels. ..... ....and let's hope it's a condition for the squirrel to become enlightened somewhere down the line too........(maybe Frank's smart cat might like it as well;-)) Sarah ===== 14015 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over/Victor Dear Christine (& Victor), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > But, what a list of things to understand and develop .... > The Four Frames of Reference > The four right exertions > the four bases of power > the five faculties > the five strengths > the seven factors of awakening > the Noble Eightfold Path > > :):) I'm disappointed Victor - no sutta references? I do hope > they're all in one or two suttas or I'll be up all night trying to > find, read and understand......:) ..... I don't know if you stayed up all night and found some helpful references or not. If not, you may find it useful to read a summary of all of these in the same order in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para12.htm It starts on the third page with th 4 Foundations of Mindfulness. I also found the 3 meanings of satipatthana I referred to the other day from our discussions: ***** The word satipaììhåna has three meanings: 1. The objects sati is aware of, thus, a paramattha dhamma, a nåma dhamma or a rúpa dhamma. These are classified as the four satipaììhånas. 2. Sati cetasika which arises together with kåmåvacara citta accompanied by paññå (ñåùa-sampayutta), and which is aware of the objects of mindfulness, the four satipaììhånas. 3. The Path the Sammå-sambuddha and the ariyan disciples have developed. The development of the ariyan eightfold Path is actually the development of the four satipaììhånas. ***** I think you'll find that the list of 'things' above to 'understand and develop' boil down to a number of sobhana cetasikas ('beautiful' mental factors, with many overlapping in the different categories. I like the chicken story too with its emphasis on conditions rather than wishing as bringing the right results. Sarah ===== 14016 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:14pm Subject: Thoughts triggered by Squirrels This ramble isn't Larry's fault ....... let's blame it on the Squirrel! Dear Jon, Sarah, Sukin, (not sure if you were all there, but you are the Usual Suspects) I wonder if any or you will remember the incident I am thinking of ..... It was at breakfast time, in Sri Lanka, at the Hotel where we had to walk a long way through the gardens to our rooms, past the restaurant with a roof and no walls, past the swimming pool and the lagoon with the night frogs, and I was upstairs from S & J ....... well, while we were having breakfast a squirrel ran across the rafters of the open air restaurant (I never knew squirrels lived anywhere else but North America and Walt Disney movies until I saw one in Bangkok with Mike and Amara - and this one in Sri Lanka....). I think some in the larger group had gone to feed fish, and between talking of about people feeding the squirrel and the fish (and monkeys and kangaroos) I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? Or was I just thinking all of that, and now I can't tell real memories from actual memories :):) ? Ive read this through and it doesn't seem very coherent, but I've had a long day and don't think my editing will help it any...... metta, Chris 14017 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:36pm Subject: Re: Thoughts triggered by Squirrels Dear group, Sorry....slight error: I think I meant "can't tell real memories from imaginary/false memories"... Chris --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: <<>>> > I think some in the larger group had gone to feed fish, and between > talking of about people feeding the squirrel and the fish (and > monkeys and kangaroos) I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that > concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was > kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of > feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the > correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then > akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the > sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? Or was I > just thinking all of that, and now I can't tell real memories from > actual memories :):) ? <<<<>>> > > metta, > Chris 14018 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:08pm Subject: shinto Dear Group, Today I went with some of my students to a Shinto temple and we talked to one of the priests. The temple is rather serene and you feel quite peaceful in the grounds. The priest was humble and calm and told us about the age (circa 500A.D), and some of the rituals. What was interesting was that the people who go to the shrine, when they die, the funeral will be conducted by a Buddhist priest. He explained that Buddhism and Shinto have different philosophies and practices but that they are very friendly. It's one of the things I like about living in Japan, 127 million people on a relatively small piece of land but they try to harmonize and humility is seen as a high virtue. I learn a lot living here. robert 14019 From: Howard Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shinto Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/27/02 8:08:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robertk writes: > Dear Group, > Today I went with some of my students to a Shinto temple and we > talked to one of the priests. The temple is rather serene and you > feel quite peaceful in the grounds. The priest was humble and calm > and told us about the age (circa 500A.D), and some of the rituals. > What was interesting was that the people who go to the shrine, when > they die, the funeral will be conducted by a Buddhist priest. He > explained that Buddhism and Shinto have different philosophies and > practices but that they are very friendly. > It's one of the things I like about living in Japan, 127 million > people on a relatively small piece of land but they try to harmonize > and humility is seen as a high virtue. I learn a lot living here. > robert > =========================== This is lovely. Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying stripes, even different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in views and practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family fights".) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14020 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Goglerr Nice to have you back, Gog, and thanks for the careful and detailed responses to Larry's questions here (and later). I admire your fine knowledge of the texts. --- goglerr wrote: > ADL: "The panca-dvaravajjana-citta arises countless times a day, but > we do not notice it." > > L: Hi all, I was wondering what is the technical reason for this? Do > we ever notice it? Since it is a consciousness, shouldn't it consious? > > G: Hi Larry, it's me again. I would like to try share my thoghts with > you. Let me explain in two aspects, the objective and the subjective > aspect. Firstly, the objective aspect. Those sense door (and mind > door) adverting consciousness are one of the consciousnesses in the > cognitive process. It is a super dynamic process. These > consciousnesses arise and pass away very very fast as if they are one > continous unchanging occurence. In a split second, perhaps hundred or > thousands of consciousnesses have already arise and pass away, and > because of these, we take it as a continuity or as a whole. This is > what we called the compaction of continuity (santati ghana). Try to > imagine a ceiling fan or a standing fan. Turn it on until the speed > is so fast that we can't see those blades anymore. Now, we only can > see a continuity rather than those individual blades, right? In the > same manner, due the dynamic cognitive process, we can't really > notice those individual consciousness instead appering as a one whole > entity. Your point about santati ghana is a good one (I believe this aspect is discussed in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, too). It's always good to have the reminder. However, I have a small query about the passage that follows. You say: > Next, the subjective aspect. We can't notice them also, because the > mind is not fast enough to detect itself, i.e the arising of the > consciousnesses, since the cognitive processes are so very fast. The > knowing mind (which is also a cognitive process itself) can't > `see' > the different kinds of consciousness in the streams of > consciousnesses. As far as I know, although the texts speak often of the speed of citta, nowhere do they suggest that the reason this is not apparent is because 'the mind is not fast enough to detect itself'. To my knowledge, the reason given is invariably ignorance, lack of developed understanding of realities. I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by the texts. Keep up the good work! Jon > L: If it is a matter of weak (subtle) or strong, what determines > that, many repititions or some kind of energy thing? > G: Not sure what do u mean by this. Anyone knows? > > L: Also, it seems that citta process scrambles the order of > paticcasamupadda. I'm wondering at what point there is contact. > G: As I know, every citta that arises will also be accompanied by > contact (one of the seven universal cetasika) but I don't think > it > scrambles the order of d/o, but honestly I don't have the answer. > > L: If it is adverting consciousness, why does kamma vipaka come after > that instead of before? > G: Not sure too. Would u like to eleborate more? Thanks. > > Goglerr 14021 From: goglerr Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Hi Jon, it's been a while since we communicate 'face-to-face'. I glad to her from u. Hope that everything is fine over there. Jon: However, I have a small query about the passage that follows. You say: > > Next, the subjective aspect. We can't notice them also, because the mind is not fast enough to detect itself, i.e the arising of the consciousnesses, since the cognitive processes are so very fast. The knowing mind (which is also a cognitive process itself) can't `see' the different kinds of consciousness in the streams of consciousnesses. Jon: As far as I know, although the texts speak often of the speed of citta, nowhere do they suggest that the reason this is not apparent is because 'the mind is not fast enough to detect itself'. To my knowledge, the reason given is invariably ignorance, lack of developed understanding of realities. G: I really appreaciate that point. You're right, i can't deny that - the ignorance - the one that blinded us from what is real and unreal. Jon: I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by the texts. G: Not only the awareness has to be penetrative and sharp on the fast changing realities, but also has to be light (kayalahuta/cittalahuta), malleable (kayamuduta/cittamuduta), wieldy (kaya/cittakammannata) and proficient (kaya/cittapagunnata). Other words, the awareness has to be swift to be concurrent the fast arising objects of nama and rupa. The object of nama or rupa are very momenterial. They change very fast and rapid. Their promeniency are changing too. Let say, an oject from the touch door. If we are mindful of it, we can observe that they are changing. But not all the time the touch point is prominent , it changes too, then the awereness has to go to another nama rupa object with has become more prominent, so that the awareness has to be continuous and concurrent with an object of nama or rupa. Within the mind too, the awareness has to be sharp, penetrative and agile, so that it can be concurrent with different cittas that are arising and passing away. Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. Goglerr p.s: I have faith in 'slowing down'! 14022 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:00am Subject: to Rob Ep Dear Rob Ep, :-) :-) Nina. 14023 From: manji Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) What if the speed, just as lightening, does not refer to the speed at which it goes from one citta to the next to the next. Instead, what if it refers to the speed at which dhamma falls away, what if it refers to the speed at which dhamma arises? A lightening bolt arises and is manifested so fast that it creates a shock wave and a brilliant flash of light. A lightening bolt can be sustained, and then pass away suddenly just as fast as it appeared. So I do believe that this "speed" refers only to the speed of cessation and arising (death/birth). It does not refer to any measure of Citta/Cetasika per second or such. The reason this is recollected is because there is sudden noting of certain cetasika arisen and it seems to have been like lightening. Therefore the mind may be aware of these moments; the mere fact that these are listed as paramattha dhamma serves as a testimony to their tangibility. If there was no possibility for experience of these dhamma, wouldn't these be mere trivial conceptual rupa and have no merit in being labeled paramattha dhamma? So it is not a question of keeping up or being more aware; what is the question is how sensitive the mind already is: Sati. As this sensitivity requires stillness as a contrast (the leaf falling on still water generates most conspicuous waves; the leaf falling on agitated water, while generating its waves, is interfered with by the agitation, and such an obvious contrast is lost among the interference) ekagatta is also a factor. And so on to the five jhana factors, eightfold path etc. Back to the leaf anology, suppose one were to place a leaf onto still water, how fast would it take for waves to appear upon this water? Sometimes when sati rises, there is a mental fermentation, a recollection f "so fast this dhamma had arisen." Just a moment later, "so fast this dhamma has fallen away". The latest understanding of this, which is interesting, is the fact that the mental fermentations (recollections) are what obstruct reality as it is, and in effect this "speed" is only perceived because the mind is so busy with its recollection as object that it does not see the rise and fall of paramattha dhamma. So immediately there is a recollection taken as an object in the mind door (mental fermentations), this process obstructs the rise and fall being known; concepts arising from recollections are incomplete experiences of an object and as such obstruct the complete experience of the rise and fall of dhamma. This last paragraph may not make much sense, it is a quite new interpretation of experiences arising from meditation and daily life. Appreciate any sharing of experience with regard to the arising and falling away of mental fermentation, concepts, and such. -Manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: goglerr > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 12:10 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) > > Hi Jon, it's been a while since we communicate 'face-to-face'. I glad > to her from u. Hope that everything is fine over there. > > Jon: However, I have a small query about the passage that follows. > You say: > > > Next, the subjective aspect. We can't notice them also, because > the mind is not fast enough to detect itself, i.e the arising of the > consciousnesses, since the cognitive processes are so very fast. The > knowing mind (which is also a cognitive process itself) can't > `see' the different kinds of consciousness in the streams of > consciousnesses. > > Jon: As far as I know, although the texts speak often of the speed of > citta, nowhere do they suggest that the reason this is not apparent > is because 'the mind is not fast enough to detect itself'. To my > knowledge, the reason given is invariably ignorance, lack of > developed understanding of realities. > > G: I really appreaciate that point. You're right, i can't deny that - > the ignorance - the one that blinded us from what is real and unreal. > > Jon: I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of > thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance > of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need > to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of > understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by > the texts. > > G: Not only the awareness has to be penetrative and sharp on the fast > changing realities, but also has to be light > (kayalahuta/cittalahuta), malleable (kayamuduta/cittamuduta), wieldy > (kaya/cittakammannata) and proficient (kaya/cittapagunnata). Other > words, the awareness has to be swift to be concurrent the fast > arising objects of nama and rupa. The object of nama or rupa are very > momenterial. They change very fast and rapid. Their promeniency are > changing too. Let say, an oject from the touch door. If we are > mindful of it, we can observe that they are changing. But not all the > time the touch point is prominent , it changes too, then the > awereness has to go to another nama rupa object with has become more > prominent, so that the awareness has to be continuous and concurrent > with an object of nama or rupa. Within the mind too, the awareness > has to be sharp, penetrative and agile, so that it can be concurrent > with different cittas that are arising and passing away. > > Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. > > Goglerr > p.s: I have faith in 'slowing down'! > 14024 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 3:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over Hi Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yuzhonghao > > I think that developing mindfulness is not enough. It is necessary > but not sufficient for eradicating defilements. > What specific qualties are you mentioning to? Thanks. kom 14025 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:24am Subject: cause & result Dear group, there is a parallel relationship between citta process and paticcasamuppada: they are both divided into cause and result. In ps avijja (ignorance) and sankhara (kama-formation) are causal; vinnana (consciousness), namarupa (mind and matter), ayatana (sense bases), phassa (impression), and vedana (feeling) are resultant; tanha (craving), upadana (clinging), and bhava (becoming) are causal; jati (rebirth), and jara-marana (old age and death) are resultant. In the citta process adverting consciousness, sense consciousness, receiving consciousness, and investigating consciousness are resultant, the others (I think?) are causal. Comparing these two lists, and Sarah's assertion that rupa in 5 door process is neither kamma cause nor kamma result, has led me to think that what is actually resultant in vipaka sense consciousess is the cetasikas. Suppose sometime in the past I was frightened by the sky. In the present I see the color blue; along with this sense consciousness a dosa cetasika arises as a result (vipaka) of the previous experience. This time, however, I cognize (in javana series?) this citta with dosa as merely kamma vipaka and 'not me'. In the future, when I see the sky again, the consciousness of the sky will arise (perhaps) with the cetasika 'this is kamma vipaka and not me'. This citta vipaka will, probably, then be again cognized (in javana?) as 'this is kamma vipaka and not me'. So the history of this exerience runs: sky consciousness (resultant) > fear (causal) > fear (resultant) > insight (causal) > insight (resultant) > insight (causal)... Causal consciousness following and reacting to resultant consciousness often, but not always, reinforces or copies the resultant, thereby causing the same future resultant consciousness when a similar object arises. Is this correct? Also, if someone could fill in some of these gaps, that would be appreciated. thanks, Larry ps: I made a mistake yesterday ascribing patisandhi citta to bhava nidana. I don't know where I got that but it probably should only be assigned to vinnana nidana. 14026 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 7:01am Subject: ADL ch. 13 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 13 (4) Kusala cittas and akusala cittas are bound to arise because we have accumulated both kusala and akusala. People are inclined to blame the world for the arising of their defilements since they do not know that defilements are accumulated in the citta; defilements are not in the objects around ourselves. One might wish to be without the six doors in order to have no defilements. However, the only way to eradicate defilements is : knowing the realities which appear through the six doors. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.III, par. 194, On fire) that the Buddha said to the monks: I will teach you, monks, a discourse (illustrated) by fire a Dhamma-discourse. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, is that discourse? It were a good thing, monks, if the organ of sight were seared with a red-hot iron pin, on fire, all ablaze, a glowing mass of flame. Then would there be no grasping of the marks or details of objects cognizable by the eye. The consciousness might stand fast, being firmly bound by the satisfaction either of the marks or the details (of the objects). Should one die at such a time, there is the possibility of his winning one of two destinies, either hell or rebirth in the womb of an animal. Seeing this danger, monks, do I so declare. It were a good thing, monks if the organ of hearing were pierced with an iron spike, on fire... if the organ of smell were pierced with a sharp claw, on fire... if the organ of taste were seared with a sharp razor, on fire... if the organ of touch were seared with a sword, on fire... It were a good thing, monks, to be asleep. For sleep, I declare, is barren for living things. It is fruitless for living things, I declare. It is dull for living things, I declare. For (if asleep) one would not be applying his mind to such imaginations as would enslave him, so that (for instance) he would break up the Order. Seeing this danger (of being awake), monks, do I so declare. As to that, monks, the well-taught Ariyan disciple thus reflects: 'Let alone searing the organ of sight with an iron pin, on fire, all ablaze, a glowing mass of flame, what if I thus ponder: Impermanent is the eye, impermanent are objects, impermanent is eye-consciousness, eye-contact, the pleasant or unpleasant or neutral feeling which arises owing to eye-contact, - - that also is impermanent...' So seeing, the well-taught Ariyan disciple is repelled by the eye, by objects, by eye-consciousness, by eye-contact. He is repelled by that pleasant or unpleasant or neutral feeling that arises owing to eye-contact... Being repelled he is dispassionate. Dispassionate, he is set free. By freedom comes the knowledge, 'I am freed', so that he realises: 'Destroyed is rebirth. Lived is the righteous life. Done is the task. For life in these conditions there is no hereafter.' Such, monks, is the Dhamma-discourse (illustrated) by fire. This sutta reminds us to be mindful at this moment, when we are seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing objects through the body-sense or through the mind-door. All these moments are functions, performed by different cittas which do not last. Questions 1. Which citta in a sense-door process determines the object before it is succeeded by akusala cittas or by kusala cittas? Is it accompanied by hetus (roots) or is it ahetuka? 2. Which citta in the mind-door process precedes the kusala cittas or akusala cittas arising in that process? What is its function? 3. Is the citta which in the mind-door process precedes the kusala cittas or akusala cittas the first citta of that process experiencing the object ? 4. Can this citta be accompanied by wisdom? 5. Sound is experienced through the ear-door and through the mind-door. Has the sound fallen away when it is experienced through the mind-door? 6. How many types of citta can perform the function of avajjana (adverting)? 14027 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:31am Subject: proud to be an American Looks like the judge who made the ruling on the pledge took some serious heat and buckled under pressure. That "indefinite hold" on the ruling will probably lead to an overturning. President Bush and Congress members said the ruling was outrageous. Glory! Nice to know everything is reverting back to normal. I pledge allegiance to the flag which represents a monotheistic republic led by a god fearing President and righteous constituents who forced a young atheist daughter and her father into hiding with threats of physical violence for practicing their constitutional right of religious freedom. Praise the Lord! -fk 14028 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:07am Subject: ayuhana (accumulation) Greetings dsg, here are a few snippets from Visuddhimagga on 'accumulations'. XIV 131: [on the formations (sankhara) aggregate] what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating. n. 57: "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampindana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating; for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis. (Pm. 484) XIV 135: [concerning volition] It wills (cetayati), thus it is volition (cetana); it collects, is the meaning. Its characteristic is the state of willing. Its function is to accumulate. It is manifested as co-ordinating. It accomplishes its own and others' functions, as a senior pupil, a head carpenter, etc., do. But it is evident when it occurs in the marshalling (driving) of associasted states in connexion with urgent work, remembering, and so on. XX 90: [concerning the 18 Principal Insights] one who develops the Contemplation of Fall [of formations] abandons accumulation [of kamma]. n. 28: "Contemplation of Destruction" is the contemplation of the momentary dissolution of formations. "Perception of compactness" is the assumption of unty in a continuity or mass or function or object. "Contemplation of destruction" is contemplation of non-existence after having been, they say. Contemplation of destruction is the understanding by means of which he resolves the compact into its elements and sees that it is impermanent in the sense of destruction. Its completion starts with contemplation of dissolution, and so there is abandoning of perception of compactness then, but before that there is not, because it has not been completed. The seeing of the dissolution of formations both by actual experience and by inference and the directing of attention to their cessation, in other words, their dissoution, is "contemplation of fall"; through it accumulation [of kamma] is abandoned; his consciousness does not incline with craving to the occurrence of that [aggregate-process of existence] for the purpose of which one accumulates [kamma]. 14029 From: wangchuk37 Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:34pm Subject: buddhist forum on cyberdistributeur hello, as you know yahoo is planning to make its services fee based so i have installed a buddhism forum at http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/yabbse/index.php which will of course remain free of charge, enjoy ! Roger 14030 From: shiau_in_lin Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:12pm Subject: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dearest Sarah, I am coming in to share information from the Tipitaka, Attasalini, Tika,Nekkiparana,Visuddhimagga,VisuddhimaggaTika,Abhidhammasangaha. The Benefits of Developing Satipanna from Scriptures 1. For the purification of all living being :- purification of the citta starting from the foundamental bases of sila, samadhi,panna 2. getting rid of lobha,dosa,moha 3. getting rid of lobha with mana and lobha with dhitti 4. getting rid of dosa,worries, envy,stingy 5. getting rid of moha 8 ( not knowing Ariya Sacca Dhamma 4, don't know Khandha and Dhatu in the past,present,future, don't know Patijasamupada) 6. knowing the cause of Akusula Kamma through thought,speech and bodily action which prevents the breaking of sila. 7. to surmount over the state of loss or dukkha from body and mind 8. To know the Ariya Sacca Dhamma(4 noble truth ) 9. To be Enlightened and obtain Parinabbana All this requires condition. Satipanna sutta is Kaya,Vedana, Citta, Dhamma Kaya is the body of 42 conditioned by :-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 1. Head hair:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 2. body hair:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 3. Nail :-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 4. teeth:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 5. Skin:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 6. Flesh:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 7. Sinews:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 8. Bone:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 9. Bone Marrow:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 10. Kidney:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 11. Heart:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 12. Liver:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 13. Midriff:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 14. Spleen:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 15. Lungs:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 16. Bowel:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 17. Entrails:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 18. Gorge:-Utu 19. Dung:-Utu 20. Brain:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 21. Bile:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 22. Phlegm:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 23. Pus:-Utu 24. Blood:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 25. Sweat:-Citta, Utu 26. Fat:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 27. Tears:-Citta, Utu 28. Grease:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 29. Spittle:-Citta, Utu 30. Snot:-Citta, Utu 31. Oil of the joints:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 32. Urine:-Utu 33. up-going wind (blurb):-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 34. down-going wind (flurt):-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 35. gas in the intestine:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 36. gas in the stomach:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 37. wind all over the whole body:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 38. breath:-Citta 39. warm in the body:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 40. warm burning causes aging:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 41. warm causes sickness:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 42. fire for digestion:-Kamma The part from 1-20 is Pathavi-dhatu = Earth element The part from 21-32 is Apo-dhatu = Water element The part from 33-38 is Vayo-dhatu = Wind element The part from 39-42 is Tejo-dhatu = Fire element The ugliness of the body which can be easily seen for contemplation is from part body 1-32. Each Kalapa of Rupa from 1-32 is contemplated with Abhidhamma and 24 conditions Like for the hair, each kalapa of the rupa is constemplated like the below:- 1. Kayapasada is conditioned by Kamma and 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja )and 1 Life rupa 1 Kayapasada rupa TOTAL of 10 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by kamma 2. Bhava Rupa is conditioned by Kamma and 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja )and 1 Life rupa 1 Female or Male rupa TOTAL of 10 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by kamma 3. Rupa conditioned by Citta 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja ) TOTAL of 8 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by citta 4. Rupa conditioned by Hara or Oja 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja ) TOTAL of 8 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by hara 5. Rupa conditined by Utu 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja ) TOTAL of 8 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by utu So we add all that up it becames 44 rupa in one kalapa rupa in the Hair part. This is the condition of all realities which is taught by the Buddha. If we contemplate the 32 parts of the body with the true idea of all the realities and its condition. Eventually the idea of self is not there. There will only be Rupa and Nama. The direct knowledge of all realities. With constant thinking of its conditions and its realities,eventually there will be no desire of holding on to the concept "hair" once we see ourself in the mirror or another person. The idea of all the dhamma and its condition will arise and that is realization of vipasana and samatha. It is not that all parts of the body is 44 rupa in 1 kalapa. Some parts are 33 rupa in 1 kalapa like for the Water elements of the body. The above is only a very small part of the Kaya nu passana in the Satipanna sutta which is clearing stated in all the scriptures related. If we only contemplate just the visible object which appears, it will detach the total idea of self or it will not completely eracidate the idea of a concept in everything we see. It requires full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and how it is conditioned and the practice of it according to the scripture, then we can understand the truth nature of Ariya Sacca Dhamma and its 3 characters of Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta of all things. This is a very small portion of what I would like to share from the scripture, which have explained completely and perfectly already by the Buddha. If there is anything which I have said or done, pls pardon me. Thankyou. Anumodana, Shin 14031 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thoughts triggered by Squirrels Dear Chris (& Larry & Dan) --- christine_forsyth This ramble isn't Larry's fault ....... let's blame it on the > Squirrel! Larry, just be careful not to mention those other S..... creatures...;-) Chris, I remember the squirrels (very like the ones we have here on the path above our apartment block) and the conversation about feeding various creatures. I’ve thought a little more about it: >I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that > concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was > kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of > feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the > correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then > akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the > sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? ..... I think the answer, as usual, is that we can’t evaluate the cittas (mind states) just by the action or outer appearance as I was suggesting when I was talking to Dan about helping the lady who had fallen over (Dan, I see on average about one a week here). Another city scene here, which I also face at least once a week, are the lost tourists with the map. Again, my instinct is to rush up to help ‘sort them out’, with some kindness, but also plenty of attachment as I enjoy the role of giving directions. However, men -- in particular I find -- often don’t want to be ‘sorted out’ and prefer to go in a few circles with their maps unaided. So, for me, sometimes there is more kusala involved in holding back, observing and not rushing forward to help. For Dan, it’s probably the opposite (and I agree that in a general or conventional sense we can talk about or see the other’s wholesome deeds). In the same way, for me, there may be more consideration involved in not feeding the squirrels or fish or handing out sweets or candy to children. It just depends. One may be feeding the animals out of consideration for one’s friends or children who enjoy the activity or there may really be some kindness or metta involved. In the park nearby, there are ponds with fish and turtles. At any time, next to the signs which say ‘Don’t feed the fish’, there will always be someone doing just that. Similarly, on the other side of the harbour, monkeys have become a serious problem from being over-fed in the country parks and bolder and bolder as a result to come into the city. We’re all told not to feed them, but I think people continue out of habit and perhaps out of attachment to having them come up close to feed. (Similar to the problem of the bird feeding in the Sydney suburbs which I saw in a documentary). Really, we can only know our own cittas at these times and certainly, whether we like going out to the cinema, for a walk, to feed the squirrels or stay behind to eat more breakfast, there’s bound to be attachment anyway. What do you think, Chris? I’ve rambled enough. Larry, I never heard of a pet squirrel before....send your friend’s squirrel our best wishes and let us know how it goes on the congee diet;-) Sarah ====== 14032 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Dear Larry, You suggest that ‘what is actually resultant in vipaka sense consciousness is the cetasikas’. To clarify, it is certain cittas, such as the sense door consciousness (seeing, hearing etc) and a few others that are vipaka cittas. Only the cetasikas which accompany these vipaka cittas are vipaka too. Therefore, cetasikas which only arise in javana processes (and not with these vipaka cittas), such as lobha or dosa (given in your example), are never vipaka or result. The way that cause and result is used when we are referring to kamma and vipaka is rather different from the way it is used in dependent origination (as I think Nina may have mentioned). > Causal consciousness following and reacting to resultant consciousness > often, but not always, reinforces or copies the resultant, thereby > causing the same future resultant consciousness when a similar object > arises. > > Is this correct? Also, if someone could fill in some of these gaps, that > would be appreciated. Let me put it this way: If dosa tends to arise on account of particular experiences (resultants or vipaka), then each time it arises, it will accumulate and be that much more likely to arise in future. It becomes ‘habit’. Furthermore, if it is strong enough to condition akusala kamma pattha through body, speech or mind, then the kamma (cetana cetasika) will cause a result (vipaka) in the future (depending on further conditions). With regard to paticca samuppada, we learn about the cycle of existence. If ignorance were eradicated, there would be no conditions for new kamma. Therefore, there would be no further vipaka (after the end of the current life), no sense door experience, contact, feeling, craving and so on as a result. So we learn the importance of developing understanding, which gradually eliminates ignorance. Understanding the nature of seeing or hearing consciousness as resultant consciousness (vipaka) and distinct from lobha or dosa which arise on account of these brief experiences, is an example of the development or bhavana that is essential in this task. I hope I haven’t confused you more or over-simplified. I appreciate all your helpful questions and study. (I’m always very glad to see Nina’s and Goglerr’s responses too). Sarah p.s. when I have time, I’ll try to find a reference or link for you on the causes (kamma, citta, temperature, nutriment) of different kinds of rupa which are never referred to as vipaka. I don’t want you left with the idea that it’s just what I say or think;-) ===================================================== 14033 From: sarahdhhk Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:09pm Subject: Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Shin, Welcome back to DSG! I'm very glad to hear from you again. --- "shiau_in_lin" wrote: > Dearest Sarah, > I am coming in to share information from the Tipitaka, Attasalini, > Tika,Nekkiparana,Visuddhimagga,VisuddhimaggaTika,Abhidha mmasangaha. > The Benefits of Developing Satipanna from Scriptures ..... It's good to hear you are studying the texts so carefully. As you mentioned to me (off-list), there really is "only one Teacher, The Lord Buddha" and we're very fourtunate to have all these texts available to us still at this time. ..... You also mentioned that now you are more inclined to `follow directly from the Scriptures' than to listen to any explanation or 'personal views'. I think many of us will appreciate this inclination and as I know, you now spend quite a lot of time out of Thailand, so it's better not to be dependent on any teacher. However, I think it really depends on different accumulations as to whether someone finds it more helpful to read the texts on their own, participate in discussions as we do here or listen to a teacher's explanations at any given time. Even if one were to find it sufficient to study on one's own, as you do, it can be helpful to others to share what one has learnt, I think. Anway, I certainly agree with your comments that "the Lord Buddha has already said everything perfectly in the Tipitaka". Sometimes we can just be good friends, pointing out to each other what is helpful. ..... > So we add all that up it becames 44 rupa in one kalapa rupa in the > Hair part. This is the condition of all realities which is taught by > the Buddha. If we contemplate the 32 parts of the body > with the true idea of all the realities and its condition. Eventually > the idea of self is not there. There will only be Rupa and Nama. The > direct knowledge of all realities. With constant thinking of its > conditions and its realities,eventually there will be no desire > of holding on to the concept "hair" once we see ourself in the > mirror or another person. The idea of all the dhamma and its > condition will arise and that is realization of vipasana and samatha. ...... Certainly Larry's question about the causes of the various rupas (in the body) was answered by your reference in detail I think. This has saved me from looking for a reference, thank you. I'm not sure that I fully agree, however, with your comment above about `with constant thinking......'. This may just be a language issue, but surely awareness (sati) rather than thinking will lead to more insight? ..... > If we only contemplate just the visible object which appears, it will > detach the total idea of self or it will not completely eracidate the > idea of a concept in everything we see. > It requires full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and how it is > conditioned and the practice of it according to the scripture, then > we can understand the truth nature of Ariya Sacca Dhamma and its 3 > characters of Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta of all things. ..... As I understand, Shin, only the Buddha himself had the full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and I think it depends on our different tendencies and accumulations as to which details it is possible to know and comprehend. If we just try to study and memorise the entire Abhidhamma, doesn't it then become another academic subject which will just be forgotten at the end of this life? ..... > > This is a very small portion of what I would like to share from the > scripture, which have explained completely and perfectly already by > the Buddha. > If there is anything which I have said or done, pls pardon me. > Thankyou. > Anumodana, ..... On the contrary, thank you for sharing the passages and letting us know about what you are finding helpful at this time. It's really great to see you hear again. Anumodana to you, Sarah ==================================== 14034 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Howard You posted this some time ago now, and I saved it for reply, to comment on a couple of things. I hope you don't mind me coming in at this late stage (I seem to have had precious little time to post lately). First, I appreciated your thoughtful words in reply to Christine. While I am not in full agreement with your comments on sila and samadhi (no surprise there, I'm sure !), I thought your other comments were very well said. Secondly, to pick up on the sila and samadhi point. This came up in the general context of 'dealing with defilements': --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Christine - … > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which > > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > > But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? I > > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Here is where sila and samadhi enter in, from my perspective. An > ongoing practice of observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear > comprehension, including a consistent guarding of the senses, will, by > itself, condition the development of a layer of calm in the mind, giving a > modicum of relative peace. With this as background, formal sitting and > walking meditation practice, essential from my perspective, can deepen and > strengthen that layer of calm, leading even to jhanic states which provide a > true but temporary haven and also condition the mind, making it more fit for > the cultivation of liberating pa~n~na. Throughout all this, ongoing > mindfulness should play the leadership role. You mention "observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear comprehension, including … guarding of the senses", and also mindfulness as playing a leadership role in the cultivation of panna. I believe you are referring here to an understanding of the teachings on the development of mindfulness (satipatthana). So far, all good stuff, to my understanding ;-)). But I am wondering why, that being the case, you should still see a formal sitting/walking practice and jhanic states as essential. Do you perhaps see the development of satipatthana as something that only takes one so far? The opening words of the Satipatthana Sutta describe the Four Arousings of Mindfulness as leading all the way to the final goal: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the *purification of beings*, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for *reaching the right path*, for the *attainment of Nibbana*, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." The commentary makes it clear that what begins as mundane awareness, properly developed and maintained, leads naturally and inevitably (albeit gradually) to the goal, including the eradication of all defilements. "'For the purification of beings.' For the cleansing of beings soiled by the stains of lust, hatred and delusion, and by the defilements of covetise, called lawless greed and so forth. All reach the highest purity after abandoning mental taints. … "'For reaching the right path.' The Noble Eightfold Path is called the right path. This preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness maintained (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the Supramundane Way. … "This way maintained, effects the attainment of Nibbana, gradually." On my reading of the sutta, there is no need for any intervening 'samatha practice'. Jon PS Just to pre-empt any misunderstanding on the part of those who know me less well than you do, Howard, let me add a few words. I am of course not saying that sila and samadhi can be ignored. Indeed, I believe it is not really possible to be interested in the development of mindfulness without also being interested in all other levels and aspects of kusala including sila and samadhi (samatha). However, while it is clearly possible to have high levels of sila and samadhi without awareness/understanding (as in the time before the Buddha's enlightenment) the opposite -- no awareness/understanding without high levels of sila and samadhi -- is not the case. As awareness and understanding are developed this in itself has the effect of 'purifying' one's sila and samadhi, in a way that can never be realised by the 'practice' of these forms of kusala alone. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are > > > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by a > > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for another. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Whatever arises at any time is what there is for us to see. It's > all > impersonal, no matter how personal it might appear. Just see it. > Meanwhile, > the ongoing cultivation of sila and samadhi will calm the waters ... > gradually. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am now > > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It *might* be so attributable. It's when we can first see a bit > that > is the occasion when we see things which were always there but > previously > missed. A poorly sighted person walking through a field of snakes > doesn't > create those snakes by putting on eyeglasses. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > It's as > > > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam up > > again. Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to > > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part > > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > > conditions..... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > "Others seem," you write. But there is appearance and there is > reality. We can't really know the states of others - we guess, but often > > incorrectly. In practice, the states of others are not relevant in any > case. > Sure, we'd all "like to be in that group," but wanting things to be > other > than they are is suffering. Of course, we can't stop that wanting by > wanting > to stop it, for that is just more tanha and dukkha. But we can develop > the > habit of seeing whatever arises, including craving, noting it clearly > without > recrimination, and going on, and that is Buddhist practice. > -------------------------------------------------- > … > With metta, > Howard 14035 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Hi, Jon - I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of yours by a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara Nikaya which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of concentration, and 3) formal meditation. The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as *including* formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). The three refererences are the following: 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/28/02 10:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Howard > > You posted this some time ago now, and I saved it for reply, to comment on > a couple of things. I hope you don't mind me coming in at this late stage > (I seem to have had precious little time to post lately). > > First, I appreciated your thoughtful words in reply to Christine. While I > am not in full agreement with your comments on sila and samadhi (no > surprise there, I'm sure !), I thought your other comments were very well > said. > > Secondly, to pick up on the sila and samadhi point. This came up in the > general context of 'dealing with defilements': > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Christine - > … > > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > > > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which > > > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > > > But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? I > > > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > > > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Here is where sila and samadhi enter in, from my perspective. An > > ongoing practice of observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear > > comprehension, including a consistent guarding of the senses, will, by > > itself, condition the development of a layer of calm in the mind, giving > a > > modicum of relative peace. With this as background, formal sitting and > > walking meditation practice, essential from my perspective, can deepen > and > > strengthen that layer of calm, leading even to jhanic states which > provide a > > true but temporary haven and also condition the mind, making it more fit > for > > the cultivation of liberating pa~n~na. Throughout all this, ongoing > > mindfulness should play the leadership role. > > You mention "observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear > comprehension, including … guarding of the senses", and also mindfulness > as playing a leadership role in the cultivation of panna. > > I believe you are referring here to an understanding of the teachings on > the development of mindfulness (satipatthana). So far, all good stuff, to > my understanding ;-)). > > But I am wondering why, that being the case, you should still see a formal > sitting/walking practice and jhanic states as essential. Do you perhaps > see the development of satipatthana as something that only takes one so > far? > > The opening words of the Satipatthana Sutta describe the Four Arousings of > Mindfulness as leading all the way to the final goal: > > "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the *purification of beings*, for > the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering > and grief, for *reaching the right path*, for the *attainment of Nibbana*, > namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." > > The commentary makes it clear that what begins as mundane awareness, > properly developed and maintained, leads naturally and inevitably (albeit > gradually) to the goal, including the eradication of all defilements. > > "'For the purification of beings.' For the cleansing of beings soiled by > the stains of lust, hatred and delusion, and by the defilements of > covetise, called lawless greed and so forth. All reach the highest purity > after abandoning mental taints. > … > "'For reaching the right path.' The Noble Eightfold Path is called the > right path. This preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness > maintained (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the > Supramundane Way. > … > "This way maintained, effects the attainment of Nibbana, gradually." > > On my reading of the sutta, there is no need for any intervening 'samatha > practice'. > > Jon > > PS Just to pre-empt any misunderstanding on the part of those who know me > less well than you do, Howard, let me add a few words. I am of course not > saying that sila and samadhi can be ignored. Indeed, I believe it is not > really possible to be interested in the development of mindfulness without > also being interested in all other levels and aspects of kusala including > sila and samadhi (samatha). However, while it is clearly possible to have > high levels of sila and samadhi without awareness/understanding (as in the > time before the Buddha's enlightenment) the opposite -- no > awareness/understanding without high levels of sila and samadhi -- is not > the case. As awareness and understanding are developed this in itself has > the effect of 'purifying' one's sila and samadhi, in a way that can never > be realised by the 'practice' of these forms of kusala alone. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are > > > > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by a > > > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for another. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Whatever arises at any time is what there is for us to see. It's > > all > > impersonal, no matter how personal it might appear. Just see it. > > Meanwhile, > > the ongoing cultivation of sila and samadhi will calm the waters ... > > gradually. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am now > > > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > It *might* be so attributable. It's when we can first see a bit > > that > > is the occasion when we see things which were always there but > > previously > > missed. A poorly sighted person walking through a field of snakes > > doesn't > > create those snakes by putting on eyeglasses. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's as > > > > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam up > > > again. Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > > > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to > > > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part > > > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > > > conditions..... > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > "Others seem," you write. But there is appearance and there is > > reality. We can't really know the states of others - we guess, but often > > > > incorrectly. In practice, the states of others are not relevant in any > > case. > > Sure, we'd all "like to be in that group," but wanting things to be > > other > > than they are is suffering. Of course, we can't stop that wanting by > > wanting > > to stop it, for that is just more tanha and dukkha. But we can develop > > the > > habit of seeing whatever arises, including craving, noting it clearly > > without > > recrimination, and going on, and that is Buddhist practice. > > -------------------------------------------------- > > … > > With metta, > > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14036 From: <> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does not arise with lobha or dosa? Larry 14037 From: <> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Sarah, sorry for the typo. I assure you I don't think you are Satan. Too hasty. Larry ------------ >Larry wrote: Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does not arise with lobha or dosa? Larry 14038 From: shiau_in_lin Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:15am Subject: Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Sarah, > I'm not sure that I fully agree, however, with your comment above > about `with constant thinking......'. This may just be a language > issue, but surely awareness (sati) rather than thinking will lead > to more insight? We can use anything word or call it whatever but the process of the citta has accumulated the contemplating of the realities or about the realities. At that moment, it is already the accumulation of panna and sati. There is definitely no attachment of the sensual objects, only letting go of ignorance. Everything is accumulated, even if you memorized the whole Tipitaka, it will be a Upanissa-paccaya in the future. And when it is conditioned, it will arise. Remember Javana citta and all the Paccaya. We are not looking at only now. There is still a future Khanda or Ayatana. I will not be able to come in as often as I can. BUT if there is anything which is nice, I will try my best to quote it from the Tipitaka and other commentaries for the reference of others. Sarah ! In most Sutta,the Lord Buddha constantly mentioned the Bhukkhuis to remember and contemplate his teaching. I believe in him. If it is not beneficiary, why would he say it !...Doesn't that make you wonder ? Any way it is up to your own faith. From my recent experiences, it has helped me in understanding the realities in my daily life because it is like a road map for me to reference on. OK ! I guess I am talking more than I should. Take care. Kalayamitta, Shin 14039 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] buddhist forum on cyberdistributeur Dear Friends, I have heard this rumour about yahoo, but have never seen any evidence of it. Yahoo has never contacted me nor has ever sent any news flashes saying that they will start charging a fee for anything. I am a subscriber to one of their oversized email boxes, so I already pay a fee for an optional service, and I'm sure they would tell me if my other yahoo services were going to become fee-based. I also moderate a very small private yahoo group which I use to chat with a few friends, and as moderator have received no notification of any plans to charge a fee for anything. Has anyone seen or received any communciations that suggest that yahoo is actually going to do this? To Roger I would ask: how did you hear about this? Is it word of mouth, or something more reliable? And thanks for offering your site for a forum. Best, Robert Ep. ============ --- wangchuk37 wrote: > hello, > as you know yahoo is planning to make its services fee based so i > have installed a buddhism forum at > http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/yabbse/index.php > > which will of course remain free of charge, > > enjoy ! > > Roger 14040 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Rob Ep, do not leave. Yes, dear friends, and happy to be here! Thanks for thinking of me, and sorry for the misunderstanding!! Best, Robert Ep. ====== --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Nina & Lodewijk, > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > Lodewijk told me to plead with you not to leave. > > You might not have read the end of my message to Rob Ep. It turns out (see > message below) it was just a misunderstanding and he never intended to > leave. He thought he was replying to Ken and Visakkha asking to be taken > of their mailing list only, not realizing the circulars were coming from > DSG. > > Sarah > ====== > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Ha ha, Sarah, > > this is a funny misunderstanding. > > > > I believe I received those emails in my 'in-box' and was asking to be > > removed from > > > > *their* list, not dsg. I was not aware that these emails were > > originating from > > dsg and had infiltrated the list. > > > > I have no desire to be removed from dsg, nor do I want to be on 'no > > emails!' > > Isn't this silly? If you can put me back onto 'emails' I am happy to > > receive them > > in my email box. I have a special file for dsg posts that takes them > > directly > > into the folder, and I can then worry about which ones to read!!!! > > > > well, this has been quite a silly thing. ........... And please put me > back on 'emails' setting, so I can get > > the full > > overwhelming volume of dsg messages! 14041 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:05am Surject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob Ep on Love (was: KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing?) Yes, Robert, I'm here it seems for the duration. Thanks, Robert, for your kind words...although I wonder why you didn't appreciate me more when I was 'here'? Truthfully, thanks for caring. I never meant to create such an incident. I know this whole thing represents my own attachments and bad karma, all of which is deserved because of my past actions. [okay that was a joke again but may be true]. As for my views on marriage, I'm a little more conservative than I used to be. I used to be kind of a hippie, but since I've been married and had a child [just turned four], I'm very family oriented and pretty strict in some ways. So I would say that relationships and commitments are very important to me, but on the other hand I'm in favor of any arrangments along those lines that anyone wants to make. Gay marriages, single parent families, etc., are all okay with me as long as they are fine with the participants. But I am not currently the editor of Psychology Today, and if so appointed, would immediately resign. Well it's all been a shock to me as well, to be removed from dsg unwittingly, then to be reinstated just as quickly, then to discover I'm a major psychologist and apparently have these blackouts when I think I'm an acting teacher. Best, Robert Ep. ============================ --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Rob. > Whew thats relieving. I know we disagree on a few points here and > there - minor ones, but they keep coming up. And there has been the > odd occasion where I've been hardpushed to get through all your > messages:) But I only realised how attached I am to your posts once > it looked like they wern't going to arrive anymore. Funny > robert > 14042 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Dear Howard, By now you have discovered that the whole thing was a misunderstanding. I am happy to be back. My only regret is that I think I may have missed a substantive post from you to me? If so I can't find it too easily in the archives and I wonder if you could possibly repost it? Thanks for your good advice. If these emails keep piling up I may take it some day! Best, Robert Ep. ====== --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > Why not go to the web site and change your status so that you don't > get any mail sent to you at all, but leaving you the option to read and > respond to posts from the web site? > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 6/25/02 12:14:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > I am receiving too many emails, so please remove me from your mailing list. > > > > Thank You, > > Robert Epstein 14043 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. As you wish, Howard. : ) but it still remains a problem that everything that exists is contained within the five kandhas, including namas; and that nibbana is a nama that is unconditioned by the five kandhas. Someday someone will have to explain how that is not a contradiction on the very face of it. And that the citta of an sotapanna is conditioned but he has the vision of the unconditioned 'object' which is not an object through this conditioned object. Or if his citta that perceives nibbana is not conditioned, then it is an unconditioned citta, even though all cittas are conditioned. Should be interesting. Hmmn....I guess I'm back. And as usual, waiting for an expert opinion to dissolve my confusion. Robert Ep. ========= --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/24/02 2:03:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Well since there is nothing that exists that is outside of the five > > khandas, one > > has to ask of Nibbana: does this knowing exist? And is Nibbana then an > > awareness > > that knows, an awareness beyond the kandhas? > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ====== > > > ==================================== > I suspect that there is nothing further to be said, and that even what > I have already conjectured about nibbana is too much. Whatever it is, nibbana > is beyond all categories of speech. Perhaps we should just leave it as the > "the unconditioned". > > With metta, > Howard > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > In a message dated 6/19/02 3:30:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > <> writes: > > > > > > > > > > Is Nibbana one of the five kandhas? > > > > Is it classified as a nama? > > > > > > > > > > > ======================= > > > No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas > > is to > > > be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, > > > subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I > > understand > > > it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence > > of > > > conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that > > absence > > > being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a > > > knowing, it is nama. > > > It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" > > is a > > > *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of > > > possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all > > conditions > > > are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary > > > > > vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 14044 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Out of Touch --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/24/02 1:54:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > I will eventually work my way backward through posts and find out what > > happened to > > you. But suffice it to say that I was sorry to realize you were sick, and > > quite > > happy to hear that you are now well. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thank you! I would say that as of just yesterday I have am finally on > the mend. I feel much better. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > My own Father's Day was very nice. Went with my wife and recently turned > > 4 year > > old daughter to a Minor League baseball game. To celebrate the day, they > > let > > fathers and kids come down onto the field after the game and run the bases. > > My > > four year old Emily was quite a good little base runner and I really felt > > like a > > dad. Since I've always felt like a kid myself it's quite a transition to > > see what > > a real child is like, quite inspiring actually. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This sounds great! Your description creates a real (and lovely) > "Americana" image in my mind! :-) > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Anyway, I hope you have a *great* Australian Father's Day when it comes > > around, > > compliments of Christine. : ) > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes! ;-) That was a nice offering from her. Actually, Fathers Day > presents still await me, and sometime soon the family will hold its own > belated celebration. > -------------------------------------------------------- That sounds like it will be very nice Howard. Even though we had our nice outing, my wife was unable to get a present or card at the time of the real Father's Day because of her work schedule. I returned from teaching at night a few nights ago to find a belated Father's Day card from my busy working wife, along with a grab bag of treats. She had correctly observed all of my little health food candies that I like and collected a small sack of them for me at the health food store. I had both a warmed heart and a good laugh. Such is the modern Father's Day. Best, Robert Ep. 14045 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Out of Touch --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/24/02 1:54:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > I will eventually work my way backward through posts and find out what > > happened to > > you. But suffice it to say that I was sorry to realize you were sick, and > > quite > > happy to hear that you are now well. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thank you! I would say that as of just yesterday I have am finally on > the mend. I feel much better. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > My own Father's Day was very nice. Went with my wife and recently turned > > 4 year > > old daughter to a Minor League baseball game. To celebrate the day, they > > let > > fathers and kids come down onto the field after the game and run the bases. > > My > > four year old Emily was quite a good little base runner and I really felt > > like a > > dad. Since I've always felt like a kid myself it's quite a transition to > > see what > > a real child is like, quite inspiring actually. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This sounds great! Your description creates a real (and lovely) > "Americana" image in my mind! :-) > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Anyway, I hope you have a *great* Australian Father's Day when it comes > > around, > > compliments of Christine. : ) > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes! ;-) That was a nice offering from her. Actually, Fathers Day > presents still await me, and sometime soon the family will hold its own > belated celebration. > -------------------------------------------------------- That sounds like it will be very nice Howard. Even though we had our nice outing, my wife was unable to get a present or card at the time of the real Father's Day because of her work schedule. I returned from teaching at night a few nights ago to find a belated Father's Day card from my busy working wife, along with a grab bag of treats. She had correctly observed all of my little health food candies that I like and collected a small sack of them for me at the health food store. I had both a warmed heart and a good laugh. Such is the modern Father's Day. Best, Robert Ep. 14046 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Dear Sarah, Thanks for this great quote. I would be very interested in reading more about the way in which nibbana as an unconditioned and 'empty' [of objects] nama, bends the lokutarra citta towards it, and how nibbana is experienced or transformed by the lokutarra citta that experiences it. In other words: more about what type of object nibbana is. Would you have any references for that? A very interesting description!! Best, Robert Ep. ======== --- sarahdhhk wrote: > Dear RobK, Rob Ep & Howard, > > Nina wrote and quote a little on this before in this post: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/63 > 42 > > Let me quote a little from it in case Rob Ep is too busy catching > up to chase the link;-) > > Nina: >In the first book of the Abhidhamma, the > Dhammasangani (Buddhist > Psychological Ethics) Nibbana is referred to as the > unconditioned element, > asankhata dhatu (See Appendix II) and it is nama or arupa( non > rupa), but it > is different from conditioned nama, it does not experience an > object. > Realities are either nama or rupa, and since nibbana is not rupa > it is > classified as nama. Kom has explained very clearly about the > classification > of the four paramattha dhammas. > We read in the Atthasalini, Expositor (II, Book II, Part II, Suttanta > Couplets, 392) an explanation of nama. Nama is derived from > namati, bending > towards an object, and it can also be a name. Citta and cetasika > bend > towards an object, experience an object. And also: they cause > one another to > bend on to the object: "The four khandhas are name (nama) in > the sense of > bending, for they bend towards the object. In the sense of > causing to bend > all (of the foregoing, namely nibbana and the four nama > khandhas) are "name" > (nama). For the four khandhas cause one another to bend on to > the object; > and nibbana bends faultless dhammas on to itself by means of > the causal > relation of the dominant influence of the object." > Thus, nibbana does not bend towards an object, it does not > experience an > object, but, it is predominant object condition for the lokuttara > cittas > that experience it, it bends them towards itself in that way> > ***** > Sarah > ====. 14047 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Thanks Rob. The recent quote from Sarah went a long way. Looking forward to more references on this. Uh oh...homework.... Robert Ep. ===== --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Rob and Howard, > I thought I'd been able to let this one slip by. It is a good > question and one I don't think I can answer properly. > Howard asked "If nibbana is not a knowing, why is it nama? I fact, > why > > > isn't it rupa??""' > The reason it isn't a rupa (matter) is obvious and not neccesary for > me to address. Why it is clasfied in the Abhidhamma as nama is > harder to say. It is outside the khandhas, it is not consciousness, > feeling, sanna, or sankhara. It is the end of all conditioned > phenomenena. > Suan explained some aspects of this to me last year and I was very > greatful; the best I can do is say that he explained that nibbana is > to be known. Thus I guess it is classified as nama because it is to > be known by path consciousness. > I guess that doesn't say much? > best wishes > robert > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Wow, Howard, that is a really good question. > > I think you've got something there. > > > > I will wait with great anticipation for the answer! : ) > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ============== > > > > --- <> wrote: > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > In a message dated 6/20/02 8:01:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > <> writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > > > You say nibbana is a knowing. I don't think this is in > accordance > > > > with the teachings of Theravada. But anyway what does it know? > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > > Howard: > > > Absence. BTW, if nibbana is not a knowing, why is it > nama? I fact, why > > > isn't it rupa?? > > > ------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > robert > > > ===================== > > > With metta, > > > Howard 14048 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Hi, Rob - I don't recall any recent post of import, but I'll check. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/28/02 6:09:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Dear Howard, > By now you have discovered that the whole thing was a misunderstanding. I > am > happy to be back. > > My only regret is that I think I may have missed a substantive post from > you to > me? If so I can't find it too easily in the archives and I wonder if you > could > possibly repost it? > > Thanks for your good advice. If these emails keep piling up I may take it > some > day! > > Best, > Robert Ep. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14049 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Hi, Rob - I think the most recent post I may have sent to you, and not of much import, had the following content: Hi, Rob - In a message dated 6/24/02 2:03:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Well since there is nothing that exists that is outside of the five > khandas, one > has to ask of Nibbana: does this knowing exist? And is Nibbana then an > awareness > that knows, an awareness beyond the kandhas? > > Robert Ep. > > ====== > ==================================== I suspect that there is nothing further to be said, and that even what I have already conjectured about nibbana is too much. Whatever it is, nibbana is beyond all categories of speech. Perhaps we should just leave it as the "the unconditioned". With metta, Howard > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 6/19/02 3:30:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > <> writes: > > > > > > > Is Nibbana one of the five kandhas? > > > Is it classified as a nama? > > > > > > > > ======================= > > No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas > is to > > be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, > > subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I > understand > > it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence > of > > conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that > absence > > being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a > > knowing, it is nama. > > It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" > is a > > *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of > > possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all > conditions > > are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary > > > vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14050 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > … > > > I'm sure I've asked this before, but I don't recall having had a > > response. When > > > you > > > say you judge practices by their effects, does that mean effects in > > terms of the > > > dhamma and, if so, what effects found in the teachings would you be > > referring > > > to? > > > > Well, the preliminary problem in answering that is that 'in terms of the > > dhamma' > > is subject to the individual's evaluation. You can say that anything > > that creates > > kusala effects is in line with the dhamma, or you can say that only > > those things > > which are explicitly mentioned in the suttas are in line with the > > dhamma, or you > > could say that those things which lead us to the dhamma by hook or by > > crook are in > > line with the dhamma, because we all come to the dhamma by various > > combinations of > > conditions and actions. > > To my way of thinking, a 'practice' should be judged by whether leads to > detachment, understanding and, ultimately, enlightenment. Any practice > that may bring other shorter-term gains but does not lead to escape is in > fact going to prologue our time in samsara. > > Of course, developing various kinds of kusala at any opportunity is not a > form of 'practice' and is always to be encouraged. > > Jon > Hi Jon, My criteria would also be whether a practice brings one towards the path that eventually brings one to enlightenment. Any benefits that do not lead towards enlightenment or that delay or lead away from enlightenment, would not be wished for, as they would prolong or increase suffering. The question is, whether these practices aid the progress towards enlightenment or not. And I am not sure whether either of us can know that with certainty either pro or con. At best we have our educated, or less educated, guesses, and mine is that if a practice creates conditions that are in line with the dhamma then it is an aid towards the path of enlightenment, and if not, then not. If one was to develop genuine peacefulness and discernment through yoga, then the yoga would be an aid towards enlightenment. If those qualities were developed on the surface but were accompanied by akusala pride in self at accomplishing these qualities or if they were masking other akusala effects that were in the wrong direction, then they would be obstacles, not aids. There is still going to be personal interpretation involved. If a Sutta mentions that many arahants were sitting in the cross-legged position while entering the jhanas; I am sure that you will say this is a coincidence and that it is a description not a prescription; and that I will say it is the path itself. Where do we each get our separate interpretations? My guess is that it is because of our backgrounds and tendencies: yours in Abhidhamma; mine in yoga and vipassana meditation as well as mahayana studies. So is either one of us right, or are we just 'being ourselves' and following our own predilections in this lifetime? Best, Robert Ep. 14051 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > I would also like to look into the Visudhimagga and see what is said > > about the jhanas. > > > > Hmmn....that means homework...... > > OK, it's a topic that interests me, too, so here's a suggestion. If you > indicate what aspects of the jhanas you're interested in looking into, > I'll try to find some relevant passages in the Vism and post them to the > list. > > No hurry, though. Just when you're ready. ;-)) > > Jon Jon, That's a great offer [as I work my way backwards through three hundred posts, ha ha]. Well I am interested in any description or commentary in the Vissudhimagga which talks about the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, but also the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas themselves. Anything in those areas would be of great interest to me. I'm not sure why I hooked onto the subject of the jhanas when I heard about them sort of belatedly last year. I hadn't noticed them before, so it must be a kammic occurrence for me to look into something about them. They are so prominent in many Theravadan writings and practices and seem to me at least to outline the pathway of states that lead to enlightenment in a concretely available way, rather than an intellectual way. Of course whatever we read about will be intellectual in a sense, but I think the subject may 1/ make clear what some of the states of consciousness/Right Concentration are in the progression of the path, and 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. I am curious as to why it interests you as well. If you were to say a word about your interest in the jhanas, it might also help me clarify my interest a bit more. Anyway, like a dog who hears a bird, this subject just makes my ears perk up, so anything you might find would be of great interest to me. Thanks, Robert Ep. 14052 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Hi, it's me again. Thanks for the many replies sent over the past week or > 2 to my earlier posts. I am slightly overwhelmed by the sheer number and > size of them, ;-)), coming as they did all at once (there must have been 1 > or 2 all-night sessions at around that time) but I can assure you I'll be > getting round to replying, and soon I hope. > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > Hi Jon. > > Well, I never saw this post and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for your > > kind > > explanation of the emphases in Abhidhamma. As I have been giving the > Abhidhamma a > > rather hard time on paramatha dhammas lately, and probably causing some > akusala > > reactions to arise towards myself, I would like to say that I think your > > explanation for the emphasis on dry insight makes a lot of sense. The > belief that > > there will be subsequent lifetimes when the dhamma will not be available > > also helps to explain the current emphasis on dhamma study. > > I'm glad you found something in the post that helps put the abhidhamma in > a better perspective. > > I'm not sure whether your remark about 'emphasis on dry insight' refers to > me or to the abhidhamma, but I wouldn't necessarily agree in either > context. To my mind the Abhidhamma simply explains what is and what can > possibly be, and in what combinations, rather than indicating what should > be. It explains that samatha and insight are distinct forms of kusala > each having its own cause and means of development, and leading to > different goals. Samatha properly developed leads to jhana, and insight > properly developed leads to enlightenment. > > For one who attains enlightenment having first attained jhana, the > enlightenment *may* (but not *will necessarily*) be based on the jhana, > but even so the enlightenment is the culmination of the development of > insight and not of the samatha. > > I do not read the texts as suggesting that a person who attains > enlightenment having first attained samatha does so because of any > conscious decision on the matter, any more than a person chooses to be > born as a member of one sex or the other, yet you could say that in either > case that outcome nevertheless depends wholly and solely on choices made > by the person in his or her previous lives. > > Likewise in my own studies, I see no 'emphasis on dry insight', but simply > an attempt to understand what is the essence of insight, as distinct from > samatha. I believe that whatever one's inclinations to samatha, this > knowledge is indispensible and is available to us only during the > dispensation of a Buddha. > > Jon Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is not necessary. To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree with you [!] that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening factor. My sense of the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization are a factor in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality. But i would like to see what the Visudhimagga says. So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come up with. I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not lead to insight or enlightenment. So there must at the very least be a balance. The jhanas, i would think, being very deep samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of concentration might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without insight. There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practicing the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval? Best, Robert Ep. 14053 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Weeks later: thanks for this. I will read it in more detail as time allows. Appreciated. Best, Robert Ep. ======= --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- Robert Epstein > wrote: > Sarah, > Can you please explain how concepts are not impermanent because not > real? I don't > get the connection. if something is unreal but it is thought of, > what is not > impermanent about that? It seems to me that the opposite of > impermanent is > permanent. Are you saying that that which is unreal must be > permanent? i can't > see what that could possibly mean, since something that is not real, > rather than > being permanent, doesn't even exist in the first place. It only > exists when > thought of, since it has no other existence, and thus would still be