14000 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Christine, Good questions. --- christine_forsyth Dear Sarah, Larry and All, > > If I read a post that causes dosa to arise, is the actual post, or > the 'seeing' of that post the result of kamma, of something I have > done in the past? ..... The ‘seeing’ of that post is vipaka, result of kamma. Remember it justs sees visible object and is either kusala (good) or akusala (bad) result, depending on the ‘something done’. ..... >Or is the 'feeling' I feel the result of kamma? ..... At the moment of seeing itself, the feeling accompanying it is neutral feeling. The feeling accompanying the citta (i.e. seeing in this case) is of the same jati (kind or nature), so in this case, the neutral feeling is also vipaka, result of kamma. ..... > Or is the type of personality I have that would tend to get upset at > seeing that type of post the result of kamma? ..... Now we move on to accumulations, tendencies or type of personality (remembering there isn’t a person, of course). After the seeing has fallen away -- it’s so very brief--, there may be lobha (attachment) or dosa(aversion) or any other ‘reaction’ to what was seen in the same eye door process or subsequent mind door process. At this stage, the lobha or dosa is not the result of kamma and not inevitable in the way the seeing experience is. Indeed the lobha or dosa rooted cittas at this stage may prompt new kamma to be performed. ..... >If the feeling I feel, > or the personality I have, is the result of kamma - isn't the deck > rather stacked against us, a sort of kammic vicious circle, causing > us to experience more and more dosa? ..... Also, I should add, the feeling which accompanies the dosa is unpleasant feeling as we all know. As I mentioned, the feeling --and indeed all cetasikas (mental factors)-- are of the same jati as the citta. So in this case, the feeling is also not the result of kamma, but akusala (unwholesome) and likely to role with the citta ‘causing’ rather than ‘resulting from’ akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action). I believe it’s very important in our study of dhamma to understand the difference between the diffrent jatis (kinds) of cittas and cetasikas and to know what is cause and what is result. I hope this helps a little. Please let me know if I’ve confused you further. (Kom, I’ll rely on you to let us know if I make any misakes in any details. Sometimes, like now, I write in a bit of a rush). Sarah p.s. Chris, I was tempted to say “I hope it wasn’t one of my silly posts that caused the dosa”. We all understand what this means conventionally. In reality, however, a post never causes dosa. Only the accumulation of kilesa (defilements) which arise on account of what is seen, heard and so on, can prompt dosa. Nonetheless........wishing you panna (wisdom) rather than dosa on account of what is seen when you read DSG messages;-) ====================================================== 14001 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply, I think you have sorted it out for me. :) No, your posts never 'cause' dosa only panna. Dsg posts on Dhamma may be tough to digest sometimes, but Truth is like that. metta, Christine --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Good questions. > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, Larry > and All, > > > > If I read a post that causes dosa to arise, is the actual post, or > > the 'seeing' of that post the result of kamma, of something I have > > done in the past? > ..... > The `seeing' of that post is vipaka, result of kamma. Remember it justs > sees visible object and is either kusala (good) or akusala (bad) result, > depending on the `something done'. > ..... > >Or is the 'feeling' I feel the result of kamma? > ..... > At the moment of seeing itself, the feeling accompanying it is neutral > feeling. The feeling accompanying the citta (i.e. seeing in this case) is > of the same jati (kind or nature), so in this case, the neutral feeling is > also vipaka, result of kamma. > ..... > > Or is the type of personality I have that would tend to get upset at > > seeing that type of post the result of kamma? > ..... > Now we move on to accumulations, tendencies or type of personality > (remembering there isn't a person, of course). > > After the seeing has fallen away -- it's so very brief--, there may be > lobha (attachment) or dosa(aversion) or any other `reaction' to what was > seen in the same eye door process or subsequent mind door process. At this > stage, the lobha or dosa is not the result of kamma and not inevitable in > the way the seeing experience is. Indeed the lobha or dosa rooted cittas > at this stage may prompt new kamma to be performed. > ..... > >If the feeling I feel, > > or the personality I have, is the result of kamma - isn't the deck > > rather stacked against us, a sort of kammic vicious circle, causing > > us to experience more and more dosa? > ..... > Also, I should add, the feeling which accompanies the dosa is unpleasant > feeling as we all know. As I mentioned, the feeling --and indeed all > cetasikas (mental factors)-- are of the same jati as the citta. So in this > case, the feeling is also not the result of kamma, but akusala > (unwholesome) and likely to role with the citta `causing' rather than > `resulting from' akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action). > > I believe it's very important in our study of dhamma to understand the > difference between the diffrent jatis (kinds) of cittas and cetasikas and > to know what is cause and what is result. I hope this helps a little. > Please let me know if I've confused you further. > > (Kom, I'll rely on you to let us know if I make any misakes in any > details. Sometimes, like now, I write in a bit of a rush). > > Sarah > > p.s. Chris, I was tempted to say "I hope it wasn't one of my silly posts > that caused the dosa". We all understand what this means conventionally. > In reality, however, a post never causes dosa. Only the accumulation of > kilesa (defilements) which arise on account of what is seen, heard and so > on, can prompt dosa. Nonetheless........wishing you panna (wisdom) rather > than dosa on account of what is seen when you read DSG messages;-) > ====================================================== > > 14002 From: onco111 Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Sarah (and Jon), Christine's comments may be referring to what's been going on at d- l... I really appreciate the way you moderate the list, so that the discussion stays focussed on Dhamma. With much appreciation, Dan > p.s. Chris, I was tempted to say "I hope it wasn't one of my silly posts > that caused the dosa". We all understand what this means conventionally. > In reality, however, a post never causes dosa. Only the accumulation of > kilesa (defilements) which arise on account of what is seen, heard and so > on, can prompt dosa. Nonetheless........wishing you panna (wisdom) rather > than dosa on account of what is seen when you read DSG messages;-) > ====================================================== 14003 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Goofy Glorious --- onco111 wrote: > People are much more perceptive than horses, That's a pretty speciest thing to say isn't it? Not only that, but difficult to prove. The more people I get to know, the more I doubt their presumed intellectual superiority over other species. My cat for example is much more perceptive than most people. Without any explicit training, he has a fairly sophisticated ethical system and ability to learn rules of the house without being told more than once. Some examples: 1) he quickly learned not to go on the bed, or other types of behavior that is unwelcome. 2) when he is treated in a way he doesn't like, instead of complaining or fighting back, most of the time he just calmly walks out of the room 3) With little children, he tolerates some obnoxious behavior like pulling his tail that he absolutely would not put up with from adults. 4) when play fighting with me, he never scratches, bites, unless I exceed a certain threshold of roughness. I've observed him many times when we're play fighting and I can see the physical cues of his temper rising, but he always observes his honor system of not retaliating with something more severe than he receives. 5) my cat remembers. when he sees my friend, who did an injustice to him a few years ago, he will noticably avoid eye contact with my friend when they greet. He also does that eye contact avoidance thing after he's been punished (unjustly, or at least perceived by him as unjust). -fk 14004 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections I, no 3 Perfections Ch I, no 3. Before one listened to the Dhamma, akusala citta was likely to arise often, and one did not understand at all how to develop the eightfold Path. When someone has listened to the Dhamma, he acquires understanding of the development of paññå and of the eightfold Path. However, when people have gained already some degree of understanding, they can notice that very seldom in a day sammå-sati, right awareness, arises and is aware of the characteristics of realities. Therefore, it is necessary to truly know oneself and to find out the reason why right awareness arises very seldom. It may be that someone has understood the right way of the development of paññå that can eradicate the wrong view of self and realize the four noble Truths. However, what is the reason that right awareness does not develop in accordance with one¹s understanding of the Path? The reason is that everybody has defilements, and this can be compared to suffering from illness. We are like a sick person who does not know how to recover and gain strength. We see that the way we have to travel is extremely far, but when our body is not healthy and strong we cannot travel all the way through and reach our destination. The eightfold Path is the long way we have to travel in order to reach our destination, that is, the realization of the four noble Truths. If we do not examine and know ourselves, we are likely to be a person who knows the right Path but who cannot go along it. We are like someone who does not know the way to gain strength and recover from his ailments. Therefore, listening to the Dhamma and considering it so that we gain understanding, can be compared to the situation of a person who looks for the right medicine to cure his illness. Someone who does not listen to the Dhamma and does not even know that he is sick, will not look for medicine to cure his illness. As soon as he finds the Dhamma and has right understanding of it, he is like a person who has found the right medicine that cures his illness so that he has sufficient strength to travel a long way. The dhammas that make the citta healthy and strong so that one can walk the eightfold Path all the way through are the ten perfections. We should carefully consider the perfections so that we have correct understanding of them. If we do not consider them we may listen to the Dhamma but we may not develop the perfections. We may listen to the Dhamma every day, but we should know and consider why we listen: we should listen with the firm determination and intention to have right understanding of the Dhamma so that we can apply it, and evenso apply it during each life to come. We should know the right purpose of listening: the development of paññå that can eradicate defilements. In this way the perfections can begin to develop while we listen. When we listen, the perfection of determination can develop. We should know the meaning of the perfection of determination; without mental strength one cannot fulfill this perfection. Some people who perform kusala, such as generosity, express their determination by prayer, but they do not know the meaning of determination. When one has the firm, unshakeable determination to reach the goal, the eradication of akusala, determination is a perfection, and this is an essential condition for the development of paññå. If we do not study the perfections, we may continue to just listen without knowing the right purpose of it, and because of this we surely shall not realize the four noble Truths. We should consider whether the perfections begin to develop while we listen to the Dhamma. Whenever we have the firm determination to listen with the right purpose, the development of paññå, we develop and accumulate all ten perfections so that they can reach accomplishment. ***** 14005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Dear Deanna, I am really glad you are so interested in the perfections. Finally when it is completed, it will be on different websites. With appreciation, Nina. op 25-06-2002 17:58 schreef Deanna Shakti Johnson op <>: > > Dearest Nina, > Thank you so much for posting from Ms. Sujin's book on the paramis. > Eventually will the whole book be available in English? > I have been very interested in the perfections for sometime but have not had > much access to them. Thank you for sharing this valuable information. I 14006 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Rob Ep, do not leave. Dear Rob Ep, Lodewijk told me to plead with you not to leave. You with all your interest, also in Pali, should not leave. We shall miss you. As Sarah explained before, sometimes things happen, people creep in to advertise. It cannot be helped. But you could do as Howard says, change your status. Web only. Best wishes, Nina. op 25-06-2002 18:12 schreef Robert Epstein op <>: > Dear Friends, > I am receiving too many emails, so please remove me from your mailing list. > 14007 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Larry Dear Larry, there are different methods of teaching by which different aspects are shown. The study of the sequence of cittas in processes helps you to see, at least in theory, that there is not one lasting moment of seeing but in fact many different cittas performing their functions within the eye-door process. We cannot count cittas nor know them all. A. Sujin said that panna can shoot from far and very fast. Only panna can know more, but our panna is not the Buddha's panna. Gogler explained very clearly the rapidity of cittas succeeding one another by way of the fast turning fan. The Dependent Origination shows causes and effects in life. When we study the processes it may be confusing to try to combine this with P.S., because the latter is so complex, and it has many aspects. It would be better to separate different subjects of study. The study should not be tiring, like a burden. Gradually it all will become clearer. Best wishes, Nina. op 25-06-2002 02:48 schreef <> op <>: > Also, it seems that citta process scrambles the order of > paticcasamupadda. I'm wondering at what point there is contact. If it is > adverting consciousness, why does kamma vipaka come after that instead > of before? I think I'm getting these terms mixed up, but my brains are > spaghetti and I can't get it straightened out. 14008 From: goglerr Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Hi! Larry, wishing u well and fine. >L. From the objective point of view (citta as object) if one reason we don't cognize every citta is because of compaction, is there any way we can slow down the speed? If not, how did the Buddha discover these things? >L. From the subjective point of view (citta as subject) what is the "knowing mind"? Can we expand its knowing capabilities? What is it that we are experiencing if not cittas? I can see a little how slow the mind is. It's like living in the past, literally. G: First, let's look from the subjective point of view. The `knowing mind' is also cittas, is also a cognitive process. Other words the citta (subject) is detecting the citta (object), or detecting itself. For e.g in the cittanupassana satipatthana, the knowing mind which `observe' the arising and passing away of the consciousness of associated with greed, hatred, delusion, thoughts, etc. To expand its knowing capabilities of the `knowing mind', in other words is to experience realities as they really are, is what the Buddha taught. The more we expand these capabilities, the less the defilements we will have, until finally the uprootment of all mental defilement. The way to expand it, then we come back to the core teachings, the Noble 8 Fold Path (sila ,samadhi panna) and the 4 Noble Truths through listening/reading, reflecting and most importantly `bhavana', repeatedly. The deeper the penetration of N8P and 4NT, the expansion of the knowing capabilities will be greater. You asked `What is it that we are experiencing if not cittas?'. What we are experiencing (daily, like now) is actually citta in one continous manner but we are not experiencing them as fleeting cittas where they change very fast in their most minutest form. But it does not mean we have to see them all the time. If we are able to experience them, in their minutest form, again and again, for a period of time, we began break away from from the grasping on the inherent notion of permanency, satisfaction and self/control where we unknowingly accumulated them since beginningless past. This is where bhavana comes in, expanding and exploring the `knowing mind' on the ocean of realities. Back to the objective view point. We can't slow down the speed of the cognitive process, it is beyond our `control', it takes its own course as in line with the nature of anatta. The `knowing' of each and different kinds of consciousnesses, the cognitive processes, the interelation between citta, cetasika and rupa, the conditions that are associated with them etc. comes from highly develop sort of viriya, sati and samadhi. Of course other noble factors are there too. Definitely this are not for beginners in the bhavana. A brief methodology on how one can detect a single kind of citta (or even cetasika); e.g. adverting, sense conciousness, bhavanga etc. As you know the cognitive process is flowing rapidly – different consciousnesses are arising and passing away. The meditator (conventionally used) focus his attention on the mind. He makes an intention only to see, let say, the adverting consciousness. If he is skilled in his concentration power and also having deep and dicriminative wisdom, this particular consciousness will keep arising and passing away in his mental `window' or in his `knowing' and others cosciousnesses will not be observable. He need to have dicriminative wisdom, if he doesn't, he can't differentiate one type of consciousness with another type of consciousness even he make that intention. Also the highly balanced concentrated power, is to able to hold the object (citta) strongly so that other distractions will not come in, and long enough for the panna to observe and scrutinize it. Then we can know the characteristics, functions and manifestations of that particular citta, a directly experince knowledge. Other words, since there are many objects, we are only looking at one object at one time. We use this method to `analyse' all kinds of cittas (and it's proceeses), all cetasikas, all rupas, their interconnections with one another, the interplay of conditions and nibbana too. The mind and body/Abhidhamma can be `studied' in this way. More can be spoken about it but `don't try these at home'! But Larry, the above methodology is only a `bonus' in bhavana, not the actual purpose of developing bhavana. I think I mention it in earlier post. The whole purpose of mental cultivation is to develop insight and wisdom, finally to eradicate greed, hatred and delusion. >L: I forgot that contact is a cetasika. It is also a link (nidana) in paticcasamuppada. If we say that patisandhi citta (rebirth) is vinnana and bhava nidanas, then would sense consciousness (vipaka) come before or after contact (phassa nidana)? Or is sense consciousness phassa nidana itself? G: I look at paticcasamupada on the big picture i.e. past lives, present life and future lives (as according to the nidana samyutta). I notice that the above question is not properly place. Patisandhi citta is patisandhi vinnana (rebirth consciousness), but is patisandhi citta, bhava (becoming) nidana ? I doubt so. I stand to be corrected from anyone out there. >L: Isn't this sense consciousness a result (vipaka) of sankhara nidana? If so it doesn't seem to arise according to the dependent arising sequence. If anything it seems to arise dependent on adverting consciousness. There's some confusion here between proximate cause and whatever the kamma cause is and how that fits into dependent arising. Put another way, how does citta process fit into the paticcasamuppada formula? G: Sense consciousness as one of the 3 factors of phassa, is in connection with present life. On the other hand, sankhara (kammic formations) has occurred in the past lives. Due to the kammic formations (from body, speech and mind), rebirth takes place in the present life. When we look at sankhara, we take the processes of cittas as a whole, (inclusive of adverting, sense cons., investigating, determining, javana, bhavanga etc.) where kamma were produce. As in abhidhamma, after adverting citta, will arise sense citta, true! Look from another angle. Because we were ignorant and created all forms of kamma in the past, therefore in this life, the cittas proliferates to give rise to this and that. The proliferation of cittas too (which are based upon ignorance), also creating kamma for the future, therefore future birth takes places. And the cycle repeats itself, until we uproot greed, hatred and delusion. Can I say cittas fit into every piece of puzzle in paticcasamupada? Hmmm…… let's see what the crowd say! >L: If this sense consciousness is the result of kamma, is the object of the consciousness (the rupa) also a result of kamma? G: It may or may not be so, but I'm not sure because I don't really know the actual function of kamma. What I know, not everything is conditioned by kamma. >L: If so, doesn't that make the whole citta process a result (vipaka) because every citta function in the process has the same object? If the rupa is not a result, then what is it about the sense consciousness that is resultant? G: If you are talking on conventional term `the same object' it is ok, pass! But if we are looking from the perpective of a citta process, it is not the same object but different objects. Objects and cittas are actually conditioning each other. Briefly, 1) the cittas that cause rupas to arise 2) cittas that cause other cittas to arise 3) rupas that causes cittas to arise and 4) rupas that cause other rupas to arise. >L: Thanks for all your help, G: Perhaps not helping u that much, more like muddling everything up! He! He! goglerr 14009 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Rob Ep, do not leave. Dear Nina & Lodewijk, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > Lodewijk told me to plead with you not to leave. You might not have read the end of my message to Rob Ep. It turns out (see message below) it was just a misunderstanding and he never intended to leave. He thought he was replying to Ken and Visakkha asking to be taken of their mailing list only, not realizing the circulars were coming from DSG. Sarah ====== --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Ha ha, Sarah, > this is a funny misunderstanding. > > I believe I received those emails in my 'in-box' and was asking to be > removed from > > *their* list, not dsg. I was not aware that these emails were > originating from > dsg and had infiltrated the list. > > I have no desire to be removed from dsg, nor do I want to be on 'no > emails!' > Isn't this silly? If you can put me back onto 'emails' I am happy to > receive them > in my email box. I have a special file for dsg posts that takes them > directly > into the folder, and I can then worry about which ones to read!!!! > > well, this has been quite a silly thing. ........... And please put me back on 'emails' setting, so I can get > the full > overwhelming volume of dsg messages! 14010 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:22am Subject: ADL ch. 13 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 13 (3) In the process of citta, the panca-vinnana is succeeded by sampaticchana-citta. This citta, which performs the function of sampaticchana (receiving the object), receives the object after the panca-vinnana has fallen away. Sampaticchana-citta is ahetuka vipaka. Two kinds of citta can perform this function: one is akusala vipaka and one is kusala vipaka. Kamma does not only produce the dvi-panca-vinnanas (the five pairs) and sampaticchana-citta, it also produces santirana-citta (investigating-consciousness) which succeeds sampaticchana-citta. Santirana-citta performs in the sense-door process the function of santirana (investigating the object); it is ahetuka vipakacitta. . As we have seen (Ch. 9), there are three kinds of santirana-citta which can perform the function of investigating: 1. Santirana-citta which is akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha. 2. Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha. 3. Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by somanassa (in case the object is extraordinarily pleasant). Santirana-citta is succeeded by votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness). Votthapana is another function of citta; the votthapana-citta determines the object in the sense-door process. After it has determined the object it is succeeded by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. The conditions through which it arises are different from the conditions for santirana-citta which is produced by kamma. Votthapana-citta is not vipaka and it is not kusala or akusala but it is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. As we have seen, the votthapana-citta is actually the mano-dvaravajjana-citta which performs the function of votthapana in the sense-door process and is then called votthapana-citta. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta performs two function in the mind-door process it performs the function of adverting to an object through the mind-door, and in the sense-door process it performs the function of votthapana. If we do not know about the cittas arising in processes and their different conditions we may think that there is a 'self' who decides at certain moments to do good deeds or bad deeds. In reality there is no person, no 'self' who decides, but there are cittas which are conditioned by accumulations of kusala and akusala. Cittas experience pleasant or unpleasant objects through the senses and through the mind-door. If someone has accumulated a great deal of lobha and dosa, lobha-mula-cittas are likely to arise when the object is pleasant and dosa-mula-cittas are likely to arise when the object is unpleasant. These cittas arise because of conditions, they are not self, they are beyond control. However, through the study of Dhamma and above all through the development of 'insight' there can be conditions for kusala cittas and then there is 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) to the object. No matter whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant, in the sense-door process the votthapana-citta can be succeeded by kusala cittas and in the mind-door, process the mano-dvaravajjana-citta can, after it has adverted to the object, be succeeded by kusala cittas. We are inclined to think that in the process of cittas, akusala vipakacittas which experience an unpleasant object should necessarily be followed by akusala cittas, since we let ourselves be ruled by the objects we experience. However, if there is 'wise attention' there is no aversion towards unpleasant objects. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise because of conditions which are entirely different from the conditions for vipakacittas. Akusala vipaka and kusala vipaka are the result of kamma. We wish to control our vipaka, but this is impossible. When it is time for akusala vipaka, we cannot prevent it from arising. We should realize that our life is nama and rupa, which arise because of condition and fall away immediately. If we would only realize that vipaka is but a moment of citta which falls away as soon as it has arisen, we would be less likely to have aversion towards unpleasant objects we experience. One may wonder whether it is necessary to know in detail about cittas and their functions. Is it not enough to know only about kusala cittas and akusala cittas? Apart from kusala cittas and akusala cittas we should know also about other kinds of cittas which perform different functions in the processes of cittas and which arise because of different conditions. Then there will be more understanding of the fact that there is no self which can direct the arising of particular cittas at particular moments. There is no self which can decide for kusala cittas. People have different accumulation and thus, when an object presents itselt, there will, in the process of cittas which experience it, be the arising of kusala cittas or akusala cittas, according to one's accumulations. When, for example, different people smell delicious food, some people may have akusala cittas while others may have kusala cittas. Those who are attached to food are bound to have lobha-mula-cittas. In the case of someone who has accumulations for dana (generosity), kusala citta may arise when he has smelled the food ; he may wish to offer food to the monks. In the case of others again there may be kusala cittas with panna which realizes smell, for example, as only smell, a rupa which is not some 'thing', which is devoid of 'self'. If there can be 'wise attention' to the object at this moment, there will be more conditions for 'wise attention' in the future. 14011 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Congee and enlightenment Dear Sarah, this info on congee is great! A friend of mine has a sick squirrel with what looks like a tumor on its neck. I'm going to tell her to feed it congee. If it's good for chickens and attorneys, it's probably good for squirrels. thanks a lot, Larry 14012 From: <> Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Dear Sarah, Christine, Nina, & Gogler, Thanks for your thought provoking answers, but I'm still a little doubtful and confused. Concerning the nature of vipaka cittas, I'm too bewildered to even formulate a coherent question. So let's leave it for now. Maybe further study of kamma will help. The ideas concerning the 'potential' relationship between citta process and paticcasamuppada arose from several passages in Visuddhimagga that discussed the details of birth. There patisandhi was definitely given as the vinnana nidana and in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary there was also a reference to a correspondence between patisandhi and bhava nidana, but no explanation or discussion. I was just guessng that citta process would fit into, or follow the logic of, paticcasamuppada. Maybe someone could look in Patisambhidamagga or some of the commentaries. There might be more info there. Beyond that, any info on how different kinds of conditional relations fit together would be helpful. Lastly, concerning why all consciousnesses are not conscious, this question has to do with the nature of experience and what a citta actually does, or is. Perhaps, as Goglerr suggested, the best way to proceed here is with tranquility and insight. I guess that is enough projects for this weekend. Best wishes to all, Larry 14013 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections by A. Sujin, Ch 1, no. 1 Dear Shakti, --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > Dearest Nina, > Thank you so much for posting from Ms. Sujin's book on the paramis. > Eventually will the whole book be available in English? > I have been very interested in the perfections for sometime but have not > had much access to them. ..... You may also like to read Nina's own "Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" which can be found at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm I think you'll find they are complimentary and Nina's own writing will assist the reading of the translation of K.Sujin's. (This is the copy of Perfections Christine was referring to reading on her flights, I think). If this is too much on Perfections, leave Nina's til later. Perhaps we'll also have a chance to meet you in Bkk in September with Rob.... we'll see. I know there is one long weekend. Glad to see your interest, Sarah ====== 14014 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Congee and enlightenment Hi Larry, --- <> wrote: > Dear Sarah, this info on congee is great! A friend of mine has a sick > squirrel with what looks like a tumor on its neck. I'm going to tell her > to feed it congee. If it's good for chickens and attorneys, it's > probably good for squirrels. ..... ....and let's hope it's a condition for the squirrel to become enlightened somewhere down the line too........(maybe Frank's smart cat might like it as well;-)) Sarah ===== 14015 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over/Victor Dear Christine (& Victor), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > But, what a list of things to understand and develop .... > The Four Frames of Reference > The four right exertions > the four bases of power > the five faculties > the five strengths > the seven factors of awakening > the Noble Eightfold Path > > :):) I'm disappointed Victor - no sutta references? I do hope > they're all in one or two suttas or I'll be up all night trying to > find, read and understand......:) ..... I don't know if you stayed up all night and found some helpful references or not. If not, you may find it useful to read a summary of all of these in the same order in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para12.htm It starts on the third page with th 4 Foundations of Mindfulness. I also found the 3 meanings of satipatthana I referred to the other day from our discussions: ***** The word satipaììhåna has three meanings: 1. The objects sati is aware of, thus, a paramattha dhamma, a nåma dhamma or a rúpa dhamma. These are classified as the four satipaììhånas. 2. Sati cetasika which arises together with kåmåvacara citta accompanied by paññå (ñåùa-sampayutta), and which is aware of the objects of mindfulness, the four satipaììhånas. 3. The Path the Sammå-sambuddha and the ariyan disciples have developed. The development of the ariyan eightfold Path is actually the development of the four satipaììhånas. ***** I think you'll find that the list of 'things' above to 'understand and develop' boil down to a number of sobhana cetasikas ('beautiful' mental factors, with many overlapping in the different categories. I like the chicken story too with its emphasis on conditions rather than wishing as bringing the right results. Sarah ===== 14016 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:14pm Subject: Thoughts triggered by Squirrels This ramble isn't Larry's fault ....... let's blame it on the Squirrel! Dear Jon, Sarah, Sukin, (not sure if you were all there, but you are the Usual Suspects) I wonder if any or you will remember the incident I am thinking of ..... It was at breakfast time, in Sri Lanka, at the Hotel where we had to walk a long way through the gardens to our rooms, past the restaurant with a roof and no walls, past the swimming pool and the lagoon with the night frogs, and I was upstairs from S & J ....... well, while we were having breakfast a squirrel ran across the rafters of the open air restaurant (I never knew squirrels lived anywhere else but North America and Walt Disney movies until I saw one in Bangkok with Mike and Amara - and this one in Sri Lanka....). I think some in the larger group had gone to feed fish, and between talking of about people feeding the squirrel and the fish (and monkeys and kangaroos) I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? Or was I just thinking all of that, and now I can't tell real memories from actual memories :):) ? Ive read this through and it doesn't seem very coherent, but I've had a long day and don't think my editing will help it any...... metta, Chris 14017 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:36pm Subject: Re: Thoughts triggered by Squirrels Dear group, Sorry....slight error: I think I meant "can't tell real memories from imaginary/false memories"... Chris --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: <<>>> > I think some in the larger group had gone to feed fish, and between > talking of about people feeding the squirrel and the fish (and > monkeys and kangaroos) I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that > concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was > kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of > feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the > correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then > akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the > sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? Or was I > just thinking all of that, and now I can't tell real memories from > actual memories :):) ? <<<<>>> > > metta, > Chris 14018 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:08pm Subject: shinto Dear Group, Today I went with some of my students to a Shinto temple and we talked to one of the priests. The temple is rather serene and you feel quite peaceful in the grounds. The priest was humble and calm and told us about the age (circa 500A.D), and some of the rituals. What was interesting was that the people who go to the shrine, when they die, the funeral will be conducted by a Buddhist priest. He explained that Buddhism and Shinto have different philosophies and practices but that they are very friendly. It's one of the things I like about living in Japan, 127 million people on a relatively small piece of land but they try to harmonize and humility is seen as a high virtue. I learn a lot living here. robert 14019 From: Howard Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shinto Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/27/02 8:08:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robertk writes: > Dear Group, > Today I went with some of my students to a Shinto temple and we > talked to one of the priests. The temple is rather serene and you > feel quite peaceful in the grounds. The priest was humble and calm > and told us about the age (circa 500A.D), and some of the rituals. > What was interesting was that the people who go to the shrine, when > they die, the funeral will be conducted by a Buddhist priest. He > explained that Buddhism and Shinto have different philosophies and > practices but that they are very friendly. > It's one of the things I like about living in Japan, 127 million > people on a relatively small piece of land but they try to harmonize > and humility is seen as a high virtue. I learn a lot living here. > robert > =========================== This is lovely. Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying stripes, even different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in views and practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family fights".) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14020 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Goglerr Nice to have you back, Gog, and thanks for the careful and detailed responses to Larry's questions here (and later). I admire your fine knowledge of the texts. --- goglerr wrote: > ADL: "The panca-dvaravajjana-citta arises countless times a day, but > we do not notice it." > > L: Hi all, I was wondering what is the technical reason for this? Do > we ever notice it? Since it is a consciousness, shouldn't it consious? > > G: Hi Larry, it's me again. I would like to try share my thoghts with > you. Let me explain in two aspects, the objective and the subjective > aspect. Firstly, the objective aspect. Those sense door (and mind > door) adverting consciousness are one of the consciousnesses in the > cognitive process. It is a super dynamic process. These > consciousnesses arise and pass away very very fast as if they are one > continous unchanging occurence. In a split second, perhaps hundred or > thousands of consciousnesses have already arise and pass away, and > because of these, we take it as a continuity or as a whole. This is > what we called the compaction of continuity (santati ghana). Try to > imagine a ceiling fan or a standing fan. Turn it on until the speed > is so fast that we can't see those blades anymore. Now, we only can > see a continuity rather than those individual blades, right? In the > same manner, due the dynamic cognitive process, we can't really > notice those individual consciousness instead appering as a one whole > entity. Your point about santati ghana is a good one (I believe this aspect is discussed in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, too). It's always good to have the reminder. However, I have a small query about the passage that follows. You say: > Next, the subjective aspect. We can't notice them also, because the > mind is not fast enough to detect itself, i.e the arising of the > consciousnesses, since the cognitive processes are so very fast. The > knowing mind (which is also a cognitive process itself) can't > `see' > the different kinds of consciousness in the streams of > consciousnesses. As far as I know, although the texts speak often of the speed of citta, nowhere do they suggest that the reason this is not apparent is because 'the mind is not fast enough to detect itself'. To my knowledge, the reason given is invariably ignorance, lack of developed understanding of realities. I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by the texts. Keep up the good work! Jon > L: If it is a matter of weak (subtle) or strong, what determines > that, many repititions or some kind of energy thing? > G: Not sure what do u mean by this. Anyone knows? > > L: Also, it seems that citta process scrambles the order of > paticcasamupadda. I'm wondering at what point there is contact. > G: As I know, every citta that arises will also be accompanied by > contact (one of the seven universal cetasika) but I don't think > it > scrambles the order of d/o, but honestly I don't have the answer. > > L: If it is adverting consciousness, why does kamma vipaka come after > that instead of before? > G: Not sure too. Would u like to eleborate more? Thanks. > > Goglerr 14021 From: goglerr Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) Hi Jon, it's been a while since we communicate 'face-to-face'. I glad to her from u. Hope that everything is fine over there. Jon: However, I have a small query about the passage that follows. You say: > > Next, the subjective aspect. We can't notice them also, because the mind is not fast enough to detect itself, i.e the arising of the consciousnesses, since the cognitive processes are so very fast. The knowing mind (which is also a cognitive process itself) can't `see' the different kinds of consciousness in the streams of consciousnesses. Jon: As far as I know, although the texts speak often of the speed of citta, nowhere do they suggest that the reason this is not apparent is because 'the mind is not fast enough to detect itself'. To my knowledge, the reason given is invariably ignorance, lack of developed understanding of realities. G: I really appreaciate that point. You're right, i can't deny that - the ignorance - the one that blinded us from what is real and unreal. Jon: I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by the texts. G: Not only the awareness has to be penetrative and sharp on the fast changing realities, but also has to be light (kayalahuta/cittalahuta), malleable (kayamuduta/cittamuduta), wieldy (kaya/cittakammannata) and proficient (kaya/cittapagunnata). Other words, the awareness has to be swift to be concurrent the fast arising objects of nama and rupa. The object of nama or rupa are very momenterial. They change very fast and rapid. Their promeniency are changing too. Let say, an oject from the touch door. If we are mindful of it, we can observe that they are changing. But not all the time the touch point is prominent , it changes too, then the awereness has to go to another nama rupa object with has become more prominent, so that the awareness has to be continuous and concurrent with an object of nama or rupa. Within the mind too, the awareness has to be sharp, penetrative and agile, so that it can be concurrent with different cittas that are arising and passing away. Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. Goglerr p.s: I have faith in 'slowing down'! 14022 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:00am Subject: to Rob Ep Dear Rob Ep, :-) :-) Nina. 14023 From: manji Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) What if the speed, just as lightening, does not refer to the speed at which it goes from one citta to the next to the next. Instead, what if it refers to the speed at which dhamma falls away, what if it refers to the speed at which dhamma arises? A lightening bolt arises and is manifested so fast that it creates a shock wave and a brilliant flash of light. A lightening bolt can be sustained, and then pass away suddenly just as fast as it appeared. So I do believe that this "speed" refers only to the speed of cessation and arising (death/birth). It does not refer to any measure of Citta/Cetasika per second or such. The reason this is recollected is because there is sudden noting of certain cetasika arisen and it seems to have been like lightening. Therefore the mind may be aware of these moments; the mere fact that these are listed as paramattha dhamma serves as a testimony to their tangibility. If there was no possibility for experience of these dhamma, wouldn't these be mere trivial conceptual rupa and have no merit in being labeled paramattha dhamma? So it is not a question of keeping up or being more aware; what is the question is how sensitive the mind already is: Sati. As this sensitivity requires stillness as a contrast (the leaf falling on still water generates most conspicuous waves; the leaf falling on agitated water, while generating its waves, is interfered with by the agitation, and such an obvious contrast is lost among the interference) ekagatta is also a factor. And so on to the five jhana factors, eightfold path etc. Back to the leaf anology, suppose one were to place a leaf onto still water, how fast would it take for waves to appear upon this water? Sometimes when sati rises, there is a mental fermentation, a recollection f "so fast this dhamma had arisen." Just a moment later, "so fast this dhamma has fallen away". The latest understanding of this, which is interesting, is the fact that the mental fermentations (recollections) are what obstruct reality as it is, and in effect this "speed" is only perceived because the mind is so busy with its recollection as object that it does not see the rise and fall of paramattha dhamma. So immediately there is a recollection taken as an object in the mind door (mental fermentations), this process obstructs the rise and fall being known; concepts arising from recollections are incomplete experiences of an object and as such obstruct the complete experience of the rise and fall of dhamma. This last paragraph may not make much sense, it is a quite new interpretation of experiences arising from meditation and daily life. Appreciate any sharing of experience with regard to the arising and falling away of mental fermentation, concepts, and such. -Manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: goglerr > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 12:10 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 13 (1) > > Hi Jon, it's been a while since we communicate 'face-to-face'. I glad > to her from u. Hope that everything is fine over there. > > Jon: However, I have a small query about the passage that follows. > You say: > > > Next, the subjective aspect. We can't notice them also, because > the mind is not fast enough to detect itself, i.e the arising of the > consciousnesses, since the cognitive processes are so very fast. The > knowing mind (which is also a cognitive process itself) can't > `see' the different kinds of consciousness in the streams of > consciousnesses. > > Jon: As far as I know, although the texts speak often of the speed of > citta, nowhere do they suggest that the reason this is not apparent > is because 'the mind is not fast enough to detect itself'. To my > knowledge, the reason given is invariably ignorance, lack of > developed understanding of realities. > > G: I really appreaciate that point. You're right, i can't deny that - > the ignorance - the one that blinded us from what is real and unreal. > > Jon: I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of > thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance > of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need > to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of > understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by > the texts. > > G: Not only the awareness has to be penetrative and sharp on the fast > changing realities, but also has to be light > (kayalahuta/cittalahuta), malleable (kayamuduta/cittamuduta), wieldy > (kaya/cittakammannata) and proficient (kaya/cittapagunnata). Other > words, the awareness has to be swift to be concurrent the fast > arising objects of nama and rupa. The object of nama or rupa are very > momenterial. They change very fast and rapid. Their promeniency are > changing too. Let say, an oject from the touch door. If we are > mindful of it, we can observe that they are changing. But not all the > time the touch point is prominent , it changes too, then the > awereness has to go to another nama rupa object with has become more > prominent, so that the awareness has to be continuous and concurrent > with an object of nama or rupa. Within the mind too, the awareness > has to be sharp, penetrative and agile, so that it can be concurrent > with different cittas that are arising and passing away. > > Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. > > Goglerr > p.s: I have faith in 'slowing down'! > 14024 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 3:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over Hi Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yuzhonghao > > I think that developing mindfulness is not enough. It is necessary > but not sufficient for eradicating defilements. > What specific qualties are you mentioning to? Thanks. kom 14025 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:24am Subject: cause & result Dear group, there is a parallel relationship between citta process and paticcasamuppada: they are both divided into cause and result. In ps avijja (ignorance) and sankhara (kama-formation) are causal; vinnana (consciousness), namarupa (mind and matter), ayatana (sense bases), phassa (impression), and vedana (feeling) are resultant; tanha (craving), upadana (clinging), and bhava (becoming) are causal; jati (rebirth), and jara-marana (old age and death) are resultant. In the citta process adverting consciousness, sense consciousness, receiving consciousness, and investigating consciousness are resultant, the others (I think?) are causal. Comparing these two lists, and Sarah's assertion that rupa in 5 door process is neither kamma cause nor kamma result, has led me to think that what is actually resultant in vipaka sense consciousess is the cetasikas. Suppose sometime in the past I was frightened by the sky. In the present I see the color blue; along with this sense consciousness a dosa cetasika arises as a result (vipaka) of the previous experience. This time, however, I cognize (in javana series?) this citta with dosa as merely kamma vipaka and 'not me'. In the future, when I see the sky again, the consciousness of the sky will arise (perhaps) with the cetasika 'this is kamma vipaka and not me'. This citta vipaka will, probably, then be again cognized (in javana?) as 'this is kamma vipaka and not me'. So the history of this exerience runs: sky consciousness (resultant) > fear (causal) > fear (resultant) > insight (causal) > insight (resultant) > insight (causal)... Causal consciousness following and reacting to resultant consciousness often, but not always, reinforces or copies the resultant, thereby causing the same future resultant consciousness when a similar object arises. Is this correct? Also, if someone could fill in some of these gaps, that would be appreciated. thanks, Larry ps: I made a mistake yesterday ascribing patisandhi citta to bhava nidana. I don't know where I got that but it probably should only be assigned to vinnana nidana. 14026 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 7:01am Subject: ADL ch. 13 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 13 (4) Kusala cittas and akusala cittas are bound to arise because we have accumulated both kusala and akusala. People are inclined to blame the world for the arising of their defilements since they do not know that defilements are accumulated in the citta; defilements are not in the objects around ourselves. One might wish to be without the six doors in order to have no defilements. However, the only way to eradicate defilements is : knowing the realities which appear through the six doors. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.III, par. 194, On fire) that the Buddha said to the monks: I will teach you, monks, a discourse (illustrated) by fire a Dhamma-discourse. Do you listen to it. And what, monks, is that discourse? It were a good thing, monks, if the organ of sight were seared with a red-hot iron pin, on fire, all ablaze, a glowing mass of flame. Then would there be no grasping of the marks or details of objects cognizable by the eye. The consciousness might stand fast, being firmly bound by the satisfaction either of the marks or the details (of the objects). Should one die at such a time, there is the possibility of his winning one of two destinies, either hell or rebirth in the womb of an animal. Seeing this danger, monks, do I so declare. It were a good thing, monks if the organ of hearing were pierced with an iron spike, on fire... if the organ of smell were pierced with a sharp claw, on fire... if the organ of taste were seared with a sharp razor, on fire... if the organ of touch were seared with a sword, on fire... It were a good thing, monks, to be asleep. For sleep, I declare, is barren for living things. It is fruitless for living things, I declare. It is dull for living things, I declare. For (if asleep) one would not be applying his mind to such imaginations as would enslave him, so that (for instance) he would break up the Order. Seeing this danger (of being awake), monks, do I so declare. As to that, monks, the well-taught Ariyan disciple thus reflects: 'Let alone searing the organ of sight with an iron pin, on fire, all ablaze, a glowing mass of flame, what if I thus ponder: Impermanent is the eye, impermanent are objects, impermanent is eye-consciousness, eye-contact, the pleasant or unpleasant or neutral feeling which arises owing to eye-contact, - - that also is impermanent...' So seeing, the well-taught Ariyan disciple is repelled by the eye, by objects, by eye-consciousness, by eye-contact. He is repelled by that pleasant or unpleasant or neutral feeling that arises owing to eye-contact... Being repelled he is dispassionate. Dispassionate, he is set free. By freedom comes the knowledge, 'I am freed', so that he realises: 'Destroyed is rebirth. Lived is the righteous life. Done is the task. For life in these conditions there is no hereafter.' Such, monks, is the Dhamma-discourse (illustrated) by fire. This sutta reminds us to be mindful at this moment, when we are seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing objects through the body-sense or through the mind-door. All these moments are functions, performed by different cittas which do not last. Questions 1. Which citta in a sense-door process determines the object before it is succeeded by akusala cittas or by kusala cittas? Is it accompanied by hetus (roots) or is it ahetuka? 2. Which citta in the mind-door process precedes the kusala cittas or akusala cittas arising in that process? What is its function? 3. Is the citta which in the mind-door process precedes the kusala cittas or akusala cittas the first citta of that process experiencing the object ? 4. Can this citta be accompanied by wisdom? 5. Sound is experienced through the ear-door and through the mind-door. Has the sound fallen away when it is experienced through the mind-door? 6. How many types of citta can perform the function of avajjana (adverting)? 14027 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:31am Subject: proud to be an American Looks like the judge who made the ruling on the pledge took some serious heat and buckled under pressure. That "indefinite hold" on the ruling will probably lead to an overturning. President Bush and Congress members said the ruling was outrageous. Glory! Nice to know everything is reverting back to normal. I pledge allegiance to the flag which represents a monotheistic republic led by a god fearing President and righteous constituents who forced a young atheist daughter and her father into hiding with threats of physical violence for practicing their constitutional right of religious freedom. Praise the Lord! -fk 14028 From: <> Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:07am Subject: ayuhana (accumulation) Greetings dsg, here are a few snippets from Visuddhimagga on 'accumulations'. XIV 131: [on the formations (sankhara) aggregate] what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating. n. 57: "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampindana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating; for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis. (Pm. 484) XIV 135: [concerning volition] It wills (cetayati), thus it is volition (cetana); it collects, is the meaning. Its characteristic is the state of willing. Its function is to accumulate. It is manifested as co-ordinating. It accomplishes its own and others' functions, as a senior pupil, a head carpenter, etc., do. But it is evident when it occurs in the marshalling (driving) of associasted states in connexion with urgent work, remembering, and so on. XX 90: [concerning the 18 Principal Insights] one who develops the Contemplation of Fall [of formations] abandons accumulation [of kamma]. n. 28: "Contemplation of Destruction" is the contemplation of the momentary dissolution of formations. "Perception of compactness" is the assumption of unty in a continuity or mass or function or object. "Contemplation of destruction" is contemplation of non-existence after having been, they say. Contemplation of destruction is the understanding by means of which he resolves the compact into its elements and sees that it is impermanent in the sense of destruction. Its completion starts with contemplation of dissolution, and so there is abandoning of perception of compactness then, but before that there is not, because it has not been completed. The seeing of the dissolution of formations both by actual experience and by inference and the directing of attention to their cessation, in other words, their dissoution, is "contemplation of fall"; through it accumulation [of kamma] is abandoned; his consciousness does not incline with craving to the occurrence of that [aggregate-process of existence] for the purpose of which one accumulates [kamma]. 14029 From: wangchuk37 Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:34pm Subject: buddhist forum on cyberdistributeur hello, as you know yahoo is planning to make its services fee based so i have installed a buddhism forum at http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/yabbse/index.php which will of course remain free of charge, enjoy ! Roger 14030 From: shiau_in_lin Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:12pm Subject: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dearest Sarah, I am coming in to share information from the Tipitaka, Attasalini, Tika,Nekkiparana,Visuddhimagga,VisuddhimaggaTika,Abhidhammasangaha. The Benefits of Developing Satipanna from Scriptures 1. For the purification of all living being :- purification of the citta starting from the foundamental bases of sila, samadhi,panna 2. getting rid of lobha,dosa,moha 3. getting rid of lobha with mana and lobha with dhitti 4. getting rid of dosa,worries, envy,stingy 5. getting rid of moha 8 ( not knowing Ariya Sacca Dhamma 4, don't know Khandha and Dhatu in the past,present,future, don't know Patijasamupada) 6. knowing the cause of Akusula Kamma through thought,speech and bodily action which prevents the breaking of sila. 7. to surmount over the state of loss or dukkha from body and mind 8. To know the Ariya Sacca Dhamma(4 noble truth ) 9. To be Enlightened and obtain Parinabbana All this requires condition. Satipanna sutta is Kaya,Vedana, Citta, Dhamma Kaya is the body of 42 conditioned by :-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 1. Head hair:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 2. body hair:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 3. Nail :-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 4. teeth:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 5. Skin:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 6. Flesh:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 7. Sinews:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 8. Bone:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 9. Bone Marrow:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 10. Kidney:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 11. Heart:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 12. Liver:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 13. Midriff:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 14. Spleen:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 15. Lungs:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 16. Bowel:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 17. Entrails:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 18. Gorge:-Utu 19. Dung:-Utu 20. Brain:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 21. Bile:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 22. Phlegm:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 23. Pus:-Utu 24. Blood:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 25. Sweat:-Citta, Utu 26. Fat:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 27. Tears:-Citta, Utu 28. Grease:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 29. Spittle:-Citta, Utu 30. Snot:-Citta, Utu 31. Oil of the joints:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 32. Urine:-Utu 33. up-going wind (blurb):-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 34. down-going wind (flurt):-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 35. gas in the intestine:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 36. gas in the stomach:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 37. wind all over the whole body:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 38. breath:-Citta 39. warm in the body:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 40. warm burning causes aging:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 41. warm causes sickness:-Kamma,Citta, Utu, Oja 42. fire for digestion:-Kamma The part from 1-20 is Pathavi-dhatu = Earth element The part from 21-32 is Apo-dhatu = Water element The part from 33-38 is Vayo-dhatu = Wind element The part from 39-42 is Tejo-dhatu = Fire element The ugliness of the body which can be easily seen for contemplation is from part body 1-32. Each Kalapa of Rupa from 1-32 is contemplated with Abhidhamma and 24 conditions Like for the hair, each kalapa of the rupa is constemplated like the below:- 1. Kayapasada is conditioned by Kamma and 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja )and 1 Life rupa 1 Kayapasada rupa TOTAL of 10 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by kamma 2. Bhava Rupa is conditioned by Kamma and 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja )and 1 Life rupa 1 Female or Male rupa TOTAL of 10 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by kamma 3. Rupa conditioned by Citta 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja ) TOTAL of 8 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by citta 4. Rupa conditioned by Hara or Oja 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja ) TOTAL of 8 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by hara 5. Rupa conditined by Utu 4 Maha Buta Rupa( Earth,Water,Wind,Fire )and 4 Upadaya Rupa ( Color, Smell,Taste,Oja ) TOTAL of 8 rupa in one kalapa conditioned by utu So we add all that up it becames 44 rupa in one kalapa rupa in the Hair part. This is the condition of all realities which is taught by the Buddha. If we contemplate the 32 parts of the body with the true idea of all the realities and its condition. Eventually the idea of self is not there. There will only be Rupa and Nama. The direct knowledge of all realities. With constant thinking of its conditions and its realities,eventually there will be no desire of holding on to the concept "hair" once we see ourself in the mirror or another person. The idea of all the dhamma and its condition will arise and that is realization of vipasana and samatha. It is not that all parts of the body is 44 rupa in 1 kalapa. Some parts are 33 rupa in 1 kalapa like for the Water elements of the body. The above is only a very small part of the Kaya nu passana in the Satipanna sutta which is clearing stated in all the scriptures related. If we only contemplate just the visible object which appears, it will detach the total idea of self or it will not completely eracidate the idea of a concept in everything we see. It requires full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and how it is conditioned and the practice of it according to the scripture, then we can understand the truth nature of Ariya Sacca Dhamma and its 3 characters of Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta of all things. This is a very small portion of what I would like to share from the scripture, which have explained completely and perfectly already by the Buddha. If there is anything which I have said or done, pls pardon me. Thankyou. Anumodana, Shin 14031 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thoughts triggered by Squirrels Dear Chris (& Larry & Dan) --- christine_forsyth This ramble isn't Larry's fault ....... let's blame it on the > Squirrel! Larry, just be careful not to mention those other S..... creatures...;-) Chris, I remember the squirrels (very like the ones we have here on the path above our apartment block) and the conversation about feeding various creatures. I’ve thought a little more about it: >I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that > concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was > kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of > feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the > correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then > akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the > sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? ..... I think the answer, as usual, is that we can’t evaluate the cittas (mind states) just by the action or outer appearance as I was suggesting when I was talking to Dan about helping the lady who had fallen over (Dan, I see on average about one a week here). Another city scene here, which I also face at least once a week, are the lost tourists with the map. Again, my instinct is to rush up to help ‘sort them out’, with some kindness, but also plenty of attachment as I enjoy the role of giving directions. However, men -- in particular I find -- often don’t want to be ‘sorted out’ and prefer to go in a few circles with their maps unaided. So, for me, sometimes there is more kusala involved in holding back, observing and not rushing forward to help. For Dan, it’s probably the opposite (and I agree that in a general or conventional sense we can talk about or see the other’s wholesome deeds). In the same way, for me, there may be more consideration involved in not feeding the squirrels or fish or handing out sweets or candy to children. It just depends. One may be feeding the animals out of consideration for one’s friends or children who enjoy the activity or there may really be some kindness or metta involved. In the park nearby, there are ponds with fish and turtles. At any time, next to the signs which say ‘Don’t feed the fish’, there will always be someone doing just that. Similarly, on the other side of the harbour, monkeys have become a serious problem from being over-fed in the country parks and bolder and bolder as a result to come into the city. We’re all told not to feed them, but I think people continue out of habit and perhaps out of attachment to having them come up close to feed. (Similar to the problem of the bird feeding in the Sydney suburbs which I saw in a documentary). Really, we can only know our own cittas at these times and certainly, whether we like going out to the cinema, for a walk, to feed the squirrels or stay behind to eat more breakfast, there’s bound to be attachment anyway. What do you think, Chris? I’ve rambled enough. Larry, I never heard of a pet squirrel before....send your friend’s squirrel our best wishes and let us know how it goes on the congee diet;-) Sarah ====== 14032 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Dear Larry, You suggest that ‘what is actually resultant in vipaka sense consciousness is the cetasikas’. To clarify, it is certain cittas, such as the sense door consciousness (seeing, hearing etc) and a few others that are vipaka cittas. Only the cetasikas which accompany these vipaka cittas are vipaka too. Therefore, cetasikas which only arise in javana processes (and not with these vipaka cittas), such as lobha or dosa (given in your example), are never vipaka or result. The way that cause and result is used when we are referring to kamma and vipaka is rather different from the way it is used in dependent origination (as I think Nina may have mentioned). > Causal consciousness following and reacting to resultant consciousness > often, but not always, reinforces or copies the resultant, thereby > causing the same future resultant consciousness when a similar object > arises. > > Is this correct? Also, if someone could fill in some of these gaps, that > would be appreciated. Let me put it this way: If dosa tends to arise on account of particular experiences (resultants or vipaka), then each time it arises, it will accumulate and be that much more likely to arise in future. It becomes ‘habit’. Furthermore, if it is strong enough to condition akusala kamma pattha through body, speech or mind, then the kamma (cetana cetasika) will cause a result (vipaka) in the future (depending on further conditions). With regard to paticca samuppada, we learn about the cycle of existence. If ignorance were eradicated, there would be no conditions for new kamma. Therefore, there would be no further vipaka (after the end of the current life), no sense door experience, contact, feeling, craving and so on as a result. So we learn the importance of developing understanding, which gradually eliminates ignorance. Understanding the nature of seeing or hearing consciousness as resultant consciousness (vipaka) and distinct from lobha or dosa which arise on account of these brief experiences, is an example of the development or bhavana that is essential in this task. I hope I haven’t confused you more or over-simplified. I appreciate all your helpful questions and study. (I’m always very glad to see Nina’s and Goglerr’s responses too). Sarah p.s. when I have time, I’ll try to find a reference or link for you on the causes (kamma, citta, temperature, nutriment) of different kinds of rupa which are never referred to as vipaka. I don’t want you left with the idea that it’s just what I say or think;-) ===================================================== 14033 From: sarahdhhk Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:09pm Subject: Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Shin, Welcome back to DSG! I'm very glad to hear from you again. --- "shiau_in_lin" wrote: > Dearest Sarah, > I am coming in to share information from the Tipitaka, Attasalini, > Tika,Nekkiparana,Visuddhimagga,VisuddhimaggaTika,Abhidha mmasangaha. > The Benefits of Developing Satipanna from Scriptures ..... It's good to hear you are studying the texts so carefully. As you mentioned to me (off-list), there really is "only one Teacher, The Lord Buddha" and we're very fourtunate to have all these texts available to us still at this time. ..... You also mentioned that now you are more inclined to `follow directly from the Scriptures' than to listen to any explanation or 'personal views'. I think many of us will appreciate this inclination and as I know, you now spend quite a lot of time out of Thailand, so it's better not to be dependent on any teacher. However, I think it really depends on different accumulations as to whether someone finds it more helpful to read the texts on their own, participate in discussions as we do here or listen to a teacher's explanations at any given time. Even if one were to find it sufficient to study on one's own, as you do, it can be helpful to others to share what one has learnt, I think. Anway, I certainly agree with your comments that "the Lord Buddha has already said everything perfectly in the Tipitaka". Sometimes we can just be good friends, pointing out to each other what is helpful. ..... > So we add all that up it becames 44 rupa in one kalapa rupa in the > Hair part. This is the condition of all realities which is taught by > the Buddha. If we contemplate the 32 parts of the body > with the true idea of all the realities and its condition. Eventually > the idea of self is not there. There will only be Rupa and Nama. The > direct knowledge of all realities. With constant thinking of its > conditions and its realities,eventually there will be no desire > of holding on to the concept "hair" once we see ourself in the > mirror or another person. The idea of all the dhamma and its > condition will arise and that is realization of vipasana and samatha. ...... Certainly Larry's question about the causes of the various rupas (in the body) was answered by your reference in detail I think. This has saved me from looking for a reference, thank you. I'm not sure that I fully agree, however, with your comment above about `with constant thinking......'. This may just be a language issue, but surely awareness (sati) rather than thinking will lead to more insight? ..... > If we only contemplate just the visible object which appears, it will > detach the total idea of self or it will not completely eracidate the > idea of a concept in everything we see. > It requires full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and how it is > conditioned and the practice of it according to the scripture, then > we can understand the truth nature of Ariya Sacca Dhamma and its 3 > characters of Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta of all things. ..... As I understand, Shin, only the Buddha himself had the full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and I think it depends on our different tendencies and accumulations as to which details it is possible to know and comprehend. If we just try to study and memorise the entire Abhidhamma, doesn't it then become another academic subject which will just be forgotten at the end of this life? ..... > > This is a very small portion of what I would like to share from the > scripture, which have explained completely and perfectly already by > the Buddha. > If there is anything which I have said or done, pls pardon me. > Thankyou. > Anumodana, ..... On the contrary, thank you for sharing the passages and letting us know about what you are finding helpful at this time. It's really great to see you hear again. Anumodana to you, Sarah ==================================== 14034 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Howard You posted this some time ago now, and I saved it for reply, to comment on a couple of things. I hope you don't mind me coming in at this late stage (I seem to have had precious little time to post lately). First, I appreciated your thoughtful words in reply to Christine. While I am not in full agreement with your comments on sila and samadhi (no surprise there, I'm sure !), I thought your other comments were very well said. Secondly, to pick up on the sila and samadhi point. This came up in the general context of 'dealing with defilements': --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Christine - … > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which > > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > > But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? I > > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Here is where sila and samadhi enter in, from my perspective. An > ongoing practice of observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear > comprehension, including a consistent guarding of the senses, will, by > itself, condition the development of a layer of calm in the mind, giving a > modicum of relative peace. With this as background, formal sitting and > walking meditation practice, essential from my perspective, can deepen and > strengthen that layer of calm, leading even to jhanic states which provide a > true but temporary haven and also condition the mind, making it more fit for > the cultivation of liberating pa~n~na. Throughout all this, ongoing > mindfulness should play the leadership role. You mention "observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear comprehension, including … guarding of the senses", and also mindfulness as playing a leadership role in the cultivation of panna. I believe you are referring here to an understanding of the teachings on the development of mindfulness (satipatthana). So far, all good stuff, to my understanding ;-)). But I am wondering why, that being the case, you should still see a formal sitting/walking practice and jhanic states as essential. Do you perhaps see the development of satipatthana as something that only takes one so far? The opening words of the Satipatthana Sutta describe the Four Arousings of Mindfulness as leading all the way to the final goal: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the *purification of beings*, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for *reaching the right path*, for the *attainment of Nibbana*, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." The commentary makes it clear that what begins as mundane awareness, properly developed and maintained, leads naturally and inevitably (albeit gradually) to the goal, including the eradication of all defilements. "'For the purification of beings.' For the cleansing of beings soiled by the stains of lust, hatred and delusion, and by the defilements of covetise, called lawless greed and so forth. All reach the highest purity after abandoning mental taints. … "'For reaching the right path.' The Noble Eightfold Path is called the right path. This preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness maintained (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the Supramundane Way. … "This way maintained, effects the attainment of Nibbana, gradually." On my reading of the sutta, there is no need for any intervening 'samatha practice'. Jon PS Just to pre-empt any misunderstanding on the part of those who know me less well than you do, Howard, let me add a few words. I am of course not saying that sila and samadhi can be ignored. Indeed, I believe it is not really possible to be interested in the development of mindfulness without also being interested in all other levels and aspects of kusala including sila and samadhi (samatha). However, while it is clearly possible to have high levels of sila and samadhi without awareness/understanding (as in the time before the Buddha's enlightenment) the opposite -- no awareness/understanding without high levels of sila and samadhi -- is not the case. As awareness and understanding are developed this in itself has the effect of 'purifying' one's sila and samadhi, in a way that can never be realised by the 'practice' of these forms of kusala alone. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are > > > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by a > > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for another. > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Whatever arises at any time is what there is for us to see. It's > all > impersonal, no matter how personal it might appear. Just see it. > Meanwhile, > the ongoing cultivation of sila and samadhi will calm the waters ... > gradually. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am now > > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It *might* be so attributable. It's when we can first see a bit > that > is the occasion when we see things which were always there but > previously > missed. A poorly sighted person walking through a field of snakes > doesn't > create those snakes by putting on eyeglasses. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > It's as > > > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam up > > again. Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to > > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part > > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > > conditions..... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > "Others seem," you write. But there is appearance and there is > reality. We can't really know the states of others - we guess, but often > > incorrectly. In practice, the states of others are not relevant in any > case. > Sure, we'd all "like to be in that group," but wanting things to be > other > than they are is suffering. Of course, we can't stop that wanting by > wanting > to stop it, for that is just more tanha and dukkha. But we can develop > the > habit of seeing whatever arises, including craving, noting it clearly > without > recrimination, and going on, and that is Buddhist practice. > -------------------------------------------------- > … > With metta, > Howard 14035 From: Howard Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Hi, Jon - I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of yours by a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara Nikaya which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of concentration, and 3) formal meditation. The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as *including* formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). The three refererences are the following: 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, An Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & Bhikkhu Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/28/02 10:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Howard > > You posted this some time ago now, and I saved it for reply, to comment on > a couple of things. I hope you don't mind me coming in at this late stage > (I seem to have had precious little time to post lately). > > First, I appreciated your thoughtful words in reply to Christine. While I > am not in full agreement with your comments on sila and samadhi (no > surprise there, I'm sure !), I thought your other comments were very well > said. > > Secondly, to pick up on the sila and samadhi point. This came up in the > general context of 'dealing with defilements': > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Christine - > … > > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, considering > > > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop which > > > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > > > But what happens in the long period before that is accomplished? I > > > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > > > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Here is where sila and samadhi enter in, from my perspective. An > > ongoing practice of observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear > > comprehension, including a consistent guarding of the senses, will, by > > itself, condition the development of a layer of calm in the mind, giving > a > > modicum of relative peace. With this as background, formal sitting and > > walking meditation practice, essential from my perspective, can deepen > and > > strengthen that layer of calm, leading even to jhanic states which > provide a > > true but temporary haven and also condition the mind, making it more fit > for > > the cultivation of liberating pa~n~na. Throughout all this, ongoing > > mindfulness should play the leadership role. > > You mention "observing the precepts with mindfulness and clear > comprehension, including … guarding of the senses", and also mindfulness > as playing a leadership role in the cultivation of panna. > > I believe you are referring here to an understanding of the teachings on > the development of mindfulness (satipatthana). So far, all good stuff, to > my understanding ;-)). > > But I am wondering why, that being the case, you should still see a formal > sitting/walking practice and jhanic states as essential. Do you perhaps > see the development of satipatthana as something that only takes one so > far? > > The opening words of the Satipatthana Sutta describe the Four Arousings of > Mindfulness as leading all the way to the final goal: > > "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the *purification of beings*, for > the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering > and grief, for *reaching the right path*, for the *attainment of Nibbana*, > namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." > > The commentary makes it clear that what begins as mundane awareness, > properly developed and maintained, leads naturally and inevitably (albeit > gradually) to the goal, including the eradication of all defilements. > > "'For the purification of beings.' For the cleansing of beings soiled by > the stains of lust, hatred and delusion, and by the defilements of > covetise, called lawless greed and so forth. All reach the highest purity > after abandoning mental taints. > … > "'For reaching the right path.' The Noble Eightfold Path is called the > right path. This preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness > maintained (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the > Supramundane Way. > … > "This way maintained, effects the attainment of Nibbana, gradually." > > On my reading of the sutta, there is no need for any intervening 'samatha > practice'. > > Jon > > PS Just to pre-empt any misunderstanding on the part of those who know me > less well than you do, Howard, let me add a few words. I am of course not > saying that sila and samadhi can be ignored. Indeed, I believe it is not > really possible to be interested in the development of mindfulness without > also being interested in all other levels and aspects of kusala including > sila and samadhi (samatha). However, while it is clearly possible to have > high levels of sila and samadhi without awareness/understanding (as in the > time before the Buddha's enlightenment) the opposite -- no > awareness/understanding without high levels of sila and samadhi -- is not > the case. As awareness and understanding are developed this in itself has > the effect of 'purifying' one's sila and samadhi, in a way that can never > be realised by the 'practice' of these forms of kusala alone. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions are > > > > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged by a > > > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for another. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Whatever arises at any time is what there is for us to see. It's > > all > > impersonal, no matter how personal it might appear. Just see it. > > Meanwhile, > > the ongoing cultivation of sila and samadhi will calm the waters ... > > gradually. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am now > > > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > It *might* be so attributable. It's when we can first see a bit > > that > > is the occasion when we see things which were always there but > > previously > > missed. A poorly sighted person walking through a field of snakes > > doesn't > > create those snakes by putting on eyeglasses. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's as > > > > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to dam up > > > again. Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > > > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I have to > > > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this part > > > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations and > > > conditions..... > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > "Others seem," you write. But there is appearance and there is > > reality. We can't really know the states of others - we guess, but often > > > > incorrectly. In practice, the states of others are not relevant in any > > case. > > Sure, we'd all "like to be in that group," but wanting things to be > > other > > than they are is suffering. Of course, we can't stop that wanting by > > wanting > > to stop it, for that is just more tanha and dukkha. But we can develop > > the > > habit of seeing whatever arises, including craving, noting it clearly > > without > > recrimination, and going on, and that is Buddhist practice. > > -------------------------------------------------- > > … > > With metta, > > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14036 From: <> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does not arise with lobha or dosa? Larry 14037 From: <> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Sarah, sorry for the typo. I assure you I don't think you are Satan. Too hasty. Larry ------------ >Larry wrote: Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does not arise with lobha or dosa? Larry 14038 From: shiau_in_lin Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:15am Subject: Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Sarah, > I'm not sure that I fully agree, however, with your comment above > about `with constant thinking......'. This may just be a language > issue, but surely awareness (sati) rather than thinking will lead > to more insight? We can use anything word or call it whatever but the process of the citta has accumulated the contemplating of the realities or about the realities. At that moment, it is already the accumulation of panna and sati. There is definitely no attachment of the sensual objects, only letting go of ignorance. Everything is accumulated, even if you memorized the whole Tipitaka, it will be a Upanissa-paccaya in the future. And when it is conditioned, it will arise. Remember Javana citta and all the Paccaya. We are not looking at only now. There is still a future Khanda or Ayatana. I will not be able to come in as often as I can. BUT if there is anything which is nice, I will try my best to quote it from the Tipitaka and other commentaries for the reference of others. Sarah ! In most Sutta,the Lord Buddha constantly mentioned the Bhukkhuis to remember and contemplate his teaching. I believe in him. If it is not beneficiary, why would he say it !...Doesn't that make you wonder ? Any way it is up to your own faith. From my recent experiences, it has helped me in understanding the realities in my daily life because it is like a road map for me to reference on. OK ! I guess I am talking more than I should. Take care. Kalayamitta, Shin 14039 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] buddhist forum on cyberdistributeur Dear Friends, I have heard this rumour about yahoo, but have never seen any evidence of it. Yahoo has never contacted me nor has ever sent any news flashes saying that they will start charging a fee for anything. I am a subscriber to one of their oversized email boxes, so I already pay a fee for an optional service, and I'm sure they would tell me if my other yahoo services were going to become fee-based. I also moderate a very small private yahoo group which I use to chat with a few friends, and as moderator have received no notification of any plans to charge a fee for anything. Has anyone seen or received any communciations that suggest that yahoo is actually going to do this? To Roger I would ask: how did you hear about this? Is it word of mouth, or something more reliable? And thanks for offering your site for a forum. Best, Robert Ep. ============ --- wangchuk37 wrote: > hello, > as you know yahoo is planning to make its services fee based so i > have installed a buddhism forum at > http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/yabbse/index.php > > which will of course remain free of charge, > > enjoy ! > > Roger 14040 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Rob Ep, do not leave. Yes, dear friends, and happy to be here! Thanks for thinking of me, and sorry for the misunderstanding!! Best, Robert Ep. ====== --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Nina & Lodewijk, > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > Lodewijk told me to plead with you not to leave. > > You might not have read the end of my message to Rob Ep. It turns out (see > message below) it was just a misunderstanding and he never intended to > leave. He thought he was replying to Ken and Visakkha asking to be taken > of their mailing list only, not realizing the circulars were coming from > DSG. > > Sarah > ====== > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Ha ha, Sarah, > > this is a funny misunderstanding. > > > > I believe I received those emails in my 'in-box' and was asking to be > > removed from > > > > *their* list, not dsg. I was not aware that these emails were > > originating from > > dsg and had infiltrated the list. > > > > I have no desire to be removed from dsg, nor do I want to be on 'no > > emails!' > > Isn't this silly? If you can put me back onto 'emails' I am happy to > > receive them > > in my email box. I have a special file for dsg posts that takes them > > directly > > into the folder, and I can then worry about which ones to read!!!! > > > > well, this has been quite a silly thing. ........... And please put me > back on 'emails' setting, so I can get > > the full > > overwhelming volume of dsg messages! 14041 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:05am Surject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob Ep on Love (was: KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing?) Yes, Robert, I'm here it seems for the duration. Thanks, Robert, for your kind words...although I wonder why you didn't appreciate me more when I was 'here'? Truthfully, thanks for caring. I never meant to create such an incident. I know this whole thing represents my own attachments and bad karma, all of which is deserved because of my past actions. [okay that was a joke again but may be true]. As for my views on marriage, I'm a little more conservative than I used to be. I used to be kind of a hippie, but since I've been married and had a child [just turned four], I'm very family oriented and pretty strict in some ways. So I would say that relationships and commitments are very important to me, but on the other hand I'm in favor of any arrangments along those lines that anyone wants to make. Gay marriages, single parent families, etc., are all okay with me as long as they are fine with the participants. But I am not currently the editor of Psychology Today, and if so appointed, would immediately resign. Well it's all been a shock to me as well, to be removed from dsg unwittingly, then to be reinstated just as quickly, then to discover I'm a major psychologist and apparently have these blackouts when I think I'm an acting teacher. Best, Robert Ep. ============================ --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Rob. > Whew thats relieving. I know we disagree on a few points here and > there - minor ones, but they keep coming up. And there has been the > odd occasion where I've been hardpushed to get through all your > messages:) But I only realised how attached I am to your posts once > it looked like they wern't going to arrive anymore. Funny > robert > 14042 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Dear Howard, By now you have discovered that the whole thing was a misunderstanding. I am happy to be back. My only regret is that I think I may have missed a substantive post from you to me? If so I can't find it too easily in the archives and I wonder if you could possibly repost it? Thanks for your good advice. If these emails keep piling up I may take it some day! Best, Robert Ep. ====== --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > Why not go to the web site and change your status so that you don't > get any mail sent to you at all, but leaving you the option to read and > respond to posts from the web site? > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 6/25/02 12:14:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > I am receiving too many emails, so please remove me from your mailing list. > > > > Thank You, > > Robert Epstein 14043 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. As you wish, Howard. : ) but it still remains a problem that everything that exists is contained within the five kandhas, including namas; and that nibbana is a nama that is unconditioned by the five kandhas. Someday someone will have to explain how that is not a contradiction on the very face of it. And that the citta of an sotapanna is conditioned but he has the vision of the unconditioned 'object' which is not an object through this conditioned object. Or if his citta that perceives nibbana is not conditioned, then it is an unconditioned citta, even though all cittas are conditioned. Should be interesting. Hmmn....I guess I'm back. And as usual, waiting for an expert opinion to dissolve my confusion. Robert Ep. ========= --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/24/02 2:03:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Well since there is nothing that exists that is outside of the five > > khandas, one > > has to ask of Nibbana: does this knowing exist? And is Nibbana then an > > awareness > > that knows, an awareness beyond the kandhas? > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ====== > > > ==================================== > I suspect that there is nothing further to be said, and that even what > I have already conjectured about nibbana is too much. Whatever it is, nibbana > is beyond all categories of speech. Perhaps we should just leave it as the > "the unconditioned". > > With metta, > Howard > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > In a message dated 6/19/02 3:30:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > <> writes: > > > > > > > > > > Is Nibbana one of the five kandhas? > > > > Is it classified as a nama? > > > > > > > > > > > ======================= > > > No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas > > is to > > > be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, > > > subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I > > understand > > > it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence > > of > > > conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that > > absence > > > being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a > > > knowing, it is nama. > > > It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" > > is a > > > *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of > > > possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all > > conditions > > > are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary > > > > > vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 14044 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Out of Touch --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/24/02 1:54:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > I will eventually work my way backward through posts and find out what > > happened to > > you. But suffice it to say that I was sorry to realize you were sick, and > > quite > > happy to hear that you are now well. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thank you! I would say that as of just yesterday I have am finally on > the mend. I feel much better. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > My own Father's Day was very nice. Went with my wife and recently turned > > 4 year > > old daughter to a Minor League baseball game. To celebrate the day, they > > let > > fathers and kids come down onto the field after the game and run the bases. > > My > > four year old Emily was quite a good little base runner and I really felt > > like a > > dad. Since I've always felt like a kid myself it's quite a transition to > > see what > > a real child is like, quite inspiring actually. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This sounds great! Your description creates a real (and lovely) > "Americana" image in my mind! :-) > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Anyway, I hope you have a *great* Australian Father's Day when it comes > > around, > > compliments of Christine. : ) > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes! ;-) That was a nice offering from her. Actually, Fathers Day > presents still await me, and sometime soon the family will hold its own > belated celebration. > -------------------------------------------------------- That sounds like it will be very nice Howard. Even though we had our nice outing, my wife was unable to get a present or card at the time of the real Father's Day because of her work schedule. I returned from teaching at night a few nights ago to find a belated Father's Day card from my busy working wife, along with a grab bag of treats. She had correctly observed all of my little health food candies that I like and collected a small sack of them for me at the health food store. I had both a warmed heart and a good laugh. Such is the modern Father's Day. Best, Robert Ep. 14045 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Out of Touch --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/24/02 1:54:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > I will eventually work my way backward through posts and find out what > > happened to > > you. But suffice it to say that I was sorry to realize you were sick, and > > quite > > happy to hear that you are now well. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thank you! I would say that as of just yesterday I have am finally on > the mend. I feel much better. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > My own Father's Day was very nice. Went with my wife and recently turned > > 4 year > > old daughter to a Minor League baseball game. To celebrate the day, they > > let > > fathers and kids come down onto the field after the game and run the bases. > > My > > four year old Emily was quite a good little base runner and I really felt > > like a > > dad. Since I've always felt like a kid myself it's quite a transition to > > see what > > a real child is like, quite inspiring actually. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This sounds great! Your description creates a real (and lovely) > "Americana" image in my mind! :-) > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Anyway, I hope you have a *great* Australian Father's Day when it comes > > around, > > compliments of Christine. : ) > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes! ;-) That was a nice offering from her. Actually, Fathers Day > presents still await me, and sometime soon the family will hold its own > belated celebration. > -------------------------------------------------------- That sounds like it will be very nice Howard. Even though we had our nice outing, my wife was unable to get a present or card at the time of the real Father's Day because of her work schedule. I returned from teaching at night a few nights ago to find a belated Father's Day card from my busy working wife, along with a grab bag of treats. She had correctly observed all of my little health food candies that I like and collected a small sack of them for me at the health food store. I had both a warmed heart and a good laugh. Such is the modern Father's Day. Best, Robert Ep. 14046 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Dear Sarah, Thanks for this great quote. I would be very interested in reading more about the way in which nibbana as an unconditioned and 'empty' [of objects] nama, bends the lokutarra citta towards it, and how nibbana is experienced or transformed by the lokutarra citta that experiences it. In other words: more about what type of object nibbana is. Would you have any references for that? A very interesting description!! Best, Robert Ep. ======== --- sarahdhhk wrote: > Dear RobK, Rob Ep & Howard, > > Nina wrote and quote a little on this before in this post: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/63 > 42 > > Let me quote a little from it in case Rob Ep is too busy catching > up to chase the link;-) > > Nina: >In the first book of the Abhidhamma, the > Dhammasangani (Buddhist > Psychological Ethics) Nibbana is referred to as the > unconditioned element, > asankhata dhatu (See Appendix II) and it is nama or arupa( non > rupa), but it > is different from conditioned nama, it does not experience an > object. > Realities are either nama or rupa, and since nibbana is not rupa > it is > classified as nama. Kom has explained very clearly about the > classification > of the four paramattha dhammas. > We read in the Atthasalini, Expositor (II, Book II, Part II, Suttanta > Couplets, 392) an explanation of nama. Nama is derived from > namati, bending > towards an object, and it can also be a name. Citta and cetasika > bend > towards an object, experience an object. And also: they cause > one another to > bend on to the object: "The four khandhas are name (nama) in > the sense of > bending, for they bend towards the object. In the sense of > causing to bend > all (of the foregoing, namely nibbana and the four nama > khandhas) are "name" > (nama). For the four khandhas cause one another to bend on to > the object; > and nibbana bends faultless dhammas on to itself by means of > the causal > relation of the dominant influence of the object." > Thus, nibbana does not bend towards an object, it does not > experience an > object, but, it is predominant object condition for the lokuttara > cittas > that experience it, it bends them towards itself in that way> > ***** > Sarah > ====. 14047 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is a knowing nama? Thanks Rob. The recent quote from Sarah went a long way. Looking forward to more references on this. Uh oh...homework.... Robert Ep. ===== --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Rob and Howard, > I thought I'd been able to let this one slip by. It is a good > question and one I don't think I can answer properly. > Howard asked "If nibbana is not a knowing, why is it nama? I fact, > why > > > isn't it rupa??""' > The reason it isn't a rupa (matter) is obvious and not neccesary for > me to address. Why it is clasfied in the Abhidhamma as nama is > harder to say. It is outside the khandhas, it is not consciousness, > feeling, sanna, or sankhara. It is the end of all conditioned > phenomenena. > Suan explained some aspects of this to me last year and I was very > greatful; the best I can do is say that he explained that nibbana is > to be known. Thus I guess it is classified as nama because it is to > be known by path consciousness. > I guess that doesn't say much? > best wishes > robert > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Wow, Howard, that is a really good question. > > I think you've got something there. > > > > I will wait with great anticipation for the answer! : ) > > > > Robert Ep. > > > > ============== > > > > --- <> wrote: > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > In a message dated 6/20/02 8:01:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > <> writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > > > You say nibbana is a knowing. I don't think this is in > accordance > > > > with the teachings of Theravada. But anyway what does it know? > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > > Howard: > > > Absence. BTW, if nibbana is not a knowing, why is it > nama? I fact, why > > > isn't it rupa?? > > > ------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > best wishes > > > > robert > > > ===================== > > > With metta, > > > Howard 14048 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Hi, Rob - I don't recall any recent post of import, but I'll check. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/28/02 6:09:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Dear Howard, > By now you have discovered that the whole thing was a misunderstanding. I > am > happy to be back. > > My only regret is that I think I may have missed a substantive post from > you to > me? If so I can't find it too easily in the archives and I wonder if you > could > possibly repost it? > > Thanks for your good advice. If these emails keep piling up I may take it > some > day! > > Best, > Robert Ep. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14049 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] KALAMA SUTTA: Seeing is Believing? Hi, Rob - I think the most recent post I may have sent to you, and not of much import, had the following content: Hi, Rob - In a message dated 6/24/02 2:03:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Well since there is nothing that exists that is outside of the five > khandas, one > has to ask of Nibbana: does this knowing exist? And is Nibbana then an > awareness > that knows, an awareness beyond the kandhas? > > Robert Ep. > > ====== > ==================================== I suspect that there is nothing further to be said, and that even what I have already conjectured about nibbana is too much. Whatever it is, nibbana is beyond all categories of speech. Perhaps we should just leave it as the "the unconditioned". With metta, Howard > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 6/19/02 3:30:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > <> writes: > > > > > > > Is Nibbana one of the five kandhas? > > > Is it classified as a nama? > > > > > > > > ======================= > > No, it is not one of the five khandhas. Within the five khandhas > is to > > be found vi~n~nanakhandha, which consists of acts of dualistic, > > subject-object discernment of conditions, whereas nibbana is, as I > understand > > it (and this is *my* interpretation only), nondual discernment of absence > of > > conditions, the absence of the conditions and the discernment of that > absence > > being inseparable and not a subject-object form of knowing. But, being a > > knowing, it is nama. > > It is a separate issue as to whether this "absence of conditions" > is a > > *mere* absence. I suspect not. I suspect it is more of a field of > > possibilities in which no conditions are actually there, but all > conditions > > are potentially available in the sense of being separated out by ordinary > > > vi~n~nana. The term 'vi~n~nana' indicates a separative knowing. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14050 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > … > > > I'm sure I've asked this before, but I don't recall having had a > > response. When > > > you > > > say you judge practices by their effects, does that mean effects in > > terms of the > > > dhamma and, if so, what effects found in the teachings would you be > > referring > > > to? > > > > Well, the preliminary problem in answering that is that 'in terms of the > > dhamma' > > is subject to the individual's evaluation. You can say that anything > > that creates > > kusala effects is in line with the dhamma, or you can say that only > > those things > > which are explicitly mentioned in the suttas are in line with the > > dhamma, or you > > could say that those things which lead us to the dhamma by hook or by > > crook are in > > line with the dhamma, because we all come to the dhamma by various > > combinations of > > conditions and actions. > > To my way of thinking, a 'practice' should be judged by whether leads to > detachment, understanding and, ultimately, enlightenment. Any practice > that may bring other shorter-term gains but does not lead to escape is in > fact going to prologue our time in samsara. > > Of course, developing various kinds of kusala at any opportunity is not a > form of 'practice' and is always to be encouraged. > > Jon > Hi Jon, My criteria would also be whether a practice brings one towards the path that eventually brings one to enlightenment. Any benefits that do not lead towards enlightenment or that delay or lead away from enlightenment, would not be wished for, as they would prolong or increase suffering. The question is, whether these practices aid the progress towards enlightenment or not. And I am not sure whether either of us can know that with certainty either pro or con. At best we have our educated, or less educated, guesses, and mine is that if a practice creates conditions that are in line with the dhamma then it is an aid towards the path of enlightenment, and if not, then not. If one was to develop genuine peacefulness and discernment through yoga, then the yoga would be an aid towards enlightenment. If those qualities were developed on the surface but were accompanied by akusala pride in self at accomplishing these qualities or if they were masking other akusala effects that were in the wrong direction, then they would be obstacles, not aids. There is still going to be personal interpretation involved. If a Sutta mentions that many arahants were sitting in the cross-legged position while entering the jhanas; I am sure that you will say this is a coincidence and that it is a description not a prescription; and that I will say it is the path itself. Where do we each get our separate interpretations? My guess is that it is because of our backgrounds and tendencies: yours in Abhidhamma; mine in yoga and vipassana meditation as well as mahayana studies. So is either one of us right, or are we just 'being ourselves' and following our own predilections in this lifetime? Best, Robert Ep. 14051 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > I would also like to look into the Visudhimagga and see what is said > > about the jhanas. > > > > Hmmn....that means homework...... > > OK, it's a topic that interests me, too, so here's a suggestion. If you > indicate what aspects of the jhanas you're interested in looking into, > I'll try to find some relevant passages in the Vism and post them to the > list. > > No hurry, though. Just when you're ready. ;-)) > > Jon Jon, That's a great offer [as I work my way backwards through three hundred posts, ha ha]. Well I am interested in any description or commentary in the Vissudhimagga which talks about the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, but also the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas themselves. Anything in those areas would be of great interest to me. I'm not sure why I hooked onto the subject of the jhanas when I heard about them sort of belatedly last year. I hadn't noticed them before, so it must be a kammic occurrence for me to look into something about them. They are so prominent in many Theravadan writings and practices and seem to me at least to outline the pathway of states that lead to enlightenment in a concretely available way, rather than an intellectual way. Of course whatever we read about will be intellectual in a sense, but I think the subject may 1/ make clear what some of the states of consciousness/Right Concentration are in the progression of the path, and 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. I am curious as to why it interests you as well. If you were to say a word about your interest in the jhanas, it might also help me clarify my interest a bit more. Anyway, like a dog who hears a bird, this subject just makes my ears perk up, so anything you might find would be of great interest to me. Thanks, Robert Ep. 14052 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Hi, it's me again. Thanks for the many replies sent over the past week or > 2 to my earlier posts. I am slightly overwhelmed by the sheer number and > size of them, ;-)), coming as they did all at once (there must have been 1 > or 2 all-night sessions at around that time) but I can assure you I'll be > getting round to replying, and soon I hope. > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > Hi Jon. > > Well, I never saw this post and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for your > > kind > > explanation of the emphases in Abhidhamma. As I have been giving the > Abhidhamma a > > rather hard time on paramatha dhammas lately, and probably causing some > akusala > > reactions to arise towards myself, I would like to say that I think your > > explanation for the emphasis on dry insight makes a lot of sense. The > belief that > > there will be subsequent lifetimes when the dhamma will not be available > > also helps to explain the current emphasis on dhamma study. > > I'm glad you found something in the post that helps put the abhidhamma in > a better perspective. > > I'm not sure whether your remark about 'emphasis on dry insight' refers to > me or to the abhidhamma, but I wouldn't necessarily agree in either > context. To my mind the Abhidhamma simply explains what is and what can > possibly be, and in what combinations, rather than indicating what should > be. It explains that samatha and insight are distinct forms of kusala > each having its own cause and means of development, and leading to > different goals. Samatha properly developed leads to jhana, and insight > properly developed leads to enlightenment. > > For one who attains enlightenment having first attained jhana, the > enlightenment *may* (but not *will necessarily*) be based on the jhana, > but even so the enlightenment is the culmination of the development of > insight and not of the samatha. > > I do not read the texts as suggesting that a person who attains > enlightenment having first attained samatha does so because of any > conscious decision on the matter, any more than a person chooses to be > born as a member of one sex or the other, yet you could say that in either > case that outcome nevertheless depends wholly and solely on choices made > by the person in his or her previous lives. > > Likewise in my own studies, I see no 'emphasis on dry insight', but simply > an attempt to understand what is the essence of insight, as distinct from > samatha. I believe that whatever one's inclinations to samatha, this > knowledge is indispensible and is available to us only during the > dispensation of a Buddha. > > Jon Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is not necessary. To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree with you [!] that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening factor. My sense of the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization are a factor in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality. But i would like to see what the Visudhimagga says. So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come up with. I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not lead to insight or enlightenment. So there must at the very least be a balance. The jhanas, i would think, being very deep samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of concentration might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without insight. There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practicing the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval? Best, Robert Ep. 14053 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca Weeks later: thanks for this. I will read it in more detail as time allows. Appreciated. Best, Robert Ep. ======= --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- Robert Epstein > wrote: > Sarah, > Can you please explain how concepts are not impermanent because not > real? I don't > get the connection. if something is unreal but it is thought of, > what is not > impermanent about that? It seems to me that the opposite of > impermanent is > permanent. Are you saying that that which is unreal must be > permanent? i can't > see what that could possibly mean, since something that is not real, > rather than > being permanent, doesn't even exist in the first place. It only > exists when > thought of, since it has no other existence, and thus would still be > quite > impermanent as far as I can see. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > Dear Rob.E. > This might explain: > The Dhamma Theory > Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA > Y. Karunadasa The Wheel Publication No. 412/413 (Buddhist > Publication society) > Karunadasa: > """because pannattis are without corresponding objective reality, the > commentaries call them asabhava-dhammas -- things without a real > nature -- > to distinguish them from the real elements of existence.Since > sabhava, the > intrinsic nature of a dhamma, is itself the dhamma, from the point > of view > of this definition what is qualified as asabhava amounts to an > abhava, a > non-existent in the final sense. It is in recognition of this fact > that > the three salient characteristics of empirical reality -- origination > (uppada), subsistence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga) -- are not > applied > to them. For these three characteristics can be predicated only of > those > things which answer to the Abhidhammic definition of empirical > reality. > Again, unlike the real existents, pannattis are not brought about by > conditions (paccayatthitika). For this same reason, they are also > defined > as "not positively produced" (aparinipphanna). Positive production > (parinipphannata) is true only of those things which have their own > individual nature (avenika-sabhava). Only a dhamma that has an own- > nature, > with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and > marked by > the three salient characteristics of conditioned existence, is > positively > produced. > > Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are > delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the > pannattis > can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva > sambhonti); > and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)." Pannattis > have no > own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, > presence, > and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three > phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do > not > apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time > (kalavimutta). > For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional > analysis > of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included > in the > khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be > subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic > of > pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned > (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess > their > own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of > the > conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the > description > of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of > underscoring their unreality."">> > best wishes > robert 14054 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob Ep, > > > > You'd better keep it to refer to when you forget what you agreed > > to;-). > > > > ha ha, that's very true! > > ;-) > > > is that because that which isn't actual can not be either permanent or > > impermanent? > ..... > Right. We don’t need a Buddha to teach us about stories and > concepts...there is no lack of expertise here. the Teachings are concerned > (as the radical phenomenologists would say too, eh Howard) with what can > be directly known and experienced. We can think and think for ever, but > never come up with the truth. > ..... > Sarah > ===== > > P.S. (silly and frivolous-be warned) > Rob, I'm also thinking that if you're still struggling to finish your book > on acting and 'live' role-plays, we could maybe help out with a little > cross-dressing (as Chris & Kom were discussing this I think), drag out a > few of the more zany members (I mean sensible and rational is all very > well, but it doesn’t sell books), have Erik instructing us on a few debate > strategies with all the gesticulations and posturing, have As change > places with Bs, you and Nina reading posts backwards and upside down, > Frank attaining jhanas in his vigorous astanga series, Wynn and friends > attempting miracles.....Oh and you and Sukin falling asleep as you write > booklets to each other at 3am.....Num speaking Pali ..hmm, talk about > concepts and proliferations. Of course, dialogue is no prob...you’re > spoilt for choice in the archives here;-) Dear Sarah, Better be careful...the above sounds like it has the makings of a very very interesting play....hmnnn..... Regards, Robert Ep. 14055 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities. Dear Howard, This is a very nice post, and one of the clearest on paramatha dhammas to my mind. Allow to make a few comments back, interspersed below: --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 5/22/02 10:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > Hi, Jon - > > > > > > In a message dated 5/22/02 8:50:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > <> writes: > > > > > > > Howard > > > > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > â€| > > > > > We are in basic agreement on this Robert, but, actually, I > > think > > > > > that > > > > > Abidhamma is as well. As I understand it, the Buddhist perspective, > > and > > > > > most explicitly so in Abhidhamma, is a phenomenalist one which > > doesn't > > > > > countenance objects existing independently of experience. > > > > > > > > Here I have to enter a possible disagreement, but one that I hope may > > also > > > > turn out to be more a matter of terminology than of substance ;-). > > > > > > > > > There is no hardness other than the experience of hardness, > > > > > at least none that can be actually known. > > > > > > > > I see a difference between the 2 assertions in your preceding > > statement, > > > > namely that-- > > > > (a) There is no hardness other than the hardness being experienced. > > > > (b) There is no hardness that can be actually known other than the > > > > hardness being experienced > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > There *is* a difference. Position (b) is the general phenomenalist > > > > > one. Position (a) is the radical phenomenalist one which represents an > > > admixture of phenomenalism with pragmatism - what is in principle > > unknowable > > > is "as good as" nonexistent. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > The statement at (b) is clearly so, in terms of the teachings (to my > > > > understanding). > > > > > > > > The statement at (a) needs to be qualified, I think. Hardness like any > > > > other reality arises because of conditions. In the case of the > > hardness > > > > that we take as being part of an inanimate object (like a table, tree > > or > > > > building), those conditions do not include the fact of their being the > > > > object of someone's citta. In other words, the hardness does not arise > > > > dependent on there being someone there to experience it. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > Ahh, but "the hardness that we take as being part of an inanimate > > > object (like a table, tree or building)" is concept-only. There being no > > > tables, trees, and buildings, there is no hardness possessed by them. > > > > Dear Howard, > > I wonder if it's really correct to say that there are "no tables, trees an > > buildings'. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > From my perspective, it is conventionally false but ultimately (and > pragmatically) true. That's my perspective - perspective (a), but I'm not > suggesting it be anyone else's. > ---------------------------------------------------- Well, just again to clarify this position, because it is extremely radical; you are saying that you believe that an actual object made of wood sitting on four legs probably does not actually exist. We put that together through the concept that unifies a number of different phenomenal properties experienced through feeling-door, seeing-door, etc., one moment at a time, such as hardness, smoothness, 'woody smell', 'visual whorls', angle shape, pain [interpreted as bumping into table], etc.? It is also possible to say less radically, but perhaps less Buddhistically.....'I do believe the concept is a sketch of something that probably *is* out there, a square object on legs that has plates and things actually on it. However, a human being cannot perceive this 'whole object' - all we get are aspects, one at a time, and put the picture together more or less accurately through experience. And: at any time when we do encounter the table, we always encounter it in relation to our current perception and intention, so it is never the same table, but is variously the table to set, the table to sit at, the table to eat at, the table to lean on while talking, etc. So there is not an 'is' table that is always the same, but there is some kind of physical object out there independent of us, probably.' And that would also be a reasonable assertion from our experience of sensual details and unifying concepts. Phenomenology was actually my area of concentration for my BA in Philosophy many centuries ago in the last ice age, and my sense from studying Husserl, Merleau-Ponty and a bit of Sartre [The Transcendence of the Ego] was that they were more inclined to the second position, which is a bit more common-sensical. But they veered towards your position at times as well. I think they straddled the line. I think that if the more radical formulation is taken as true, one has to truly look at this life as a dream in order to have that make any sense; in other words, one has to doubt the inherent solidity of physical reality, and work with the idea that this reality is basically a product of mind only, that there is no physical universe. It's a phantasm. Under that formulation, the creation of conceptual objects through acts of nama and rupa makes sense. A seeming physical existence with a seeming body having seeming sense-moments, all produced as a kind of hallucination. A kind of juggling act which keeps the concept of table alive through producing rupas of hardness, etc. I am not sure if this is where the Abhidhamma leads or not, I think some here would object to this radical a formulation. I kind of gravitate towards this. In a dream, things seem solid and whole, but they are just pliable and partial, subject to the mind's creative bent. But each thing created seems to take its logical place, even though it wasn't there a moment before. > Just as Buddha was unwilling to say bluntly that 'there is no self',> > > I doubt he would assert the nonexistence of tables either. Rather, I think > > he > > might say that the idea that we experience a 'table' when we experience > > 'hardness' > > is a concept. And we can never know 'table' since the concept 'table' is a > > collection of experiences that each add up to only one or another direct > > quality. > > None of these ever adds up to 'table' in actual experience, only as a > > deductive > > conclusion. Experientially speaking, and in the service of knowing the > > reality of > > the present moment, 'table' does not exist except as a concept. But this > > does not > > mean that 'table' as some sort of cosmic reality outside of experience > > either does > > or doesn't exist. It just means what Jon said when he cited version (b) > > and said > > that version (a) that no other object existed except for the one > > experienced was > > much more radical, perhaps more radical than necessary. > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Conventionally there are tables, and there is a keyboard that I am > typing on, and a chair I am sitting on. What is more, I am perceiving all > these things "out there". That's conventional truth, and it enables me to > function quite nicely in this world, this intersubjective realm of > experience, which is MIND MADE. But when I look carefully - very carefully, I > actually only experience what the Abhidhammikas call paramattha dhammas, and > these are all "in here", not "out there" - and, of course, impermanent, > unsatisfactory, impersonal, and insubstantial. > ------------------------------------------------------- Yup, I believe you're saying that the physical universe is inherently insubstantial and holographic in nature. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I agree that perceptions are really 'in here' rather than 'out there' although there's no 'inside' to a mental projection. It's just 'of mind', neither inner nor outer, since there are really no objects to be inside or outside of. > > So is there a table somewhere out in the world beyond the senses of humans? > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't think so. I'm actually not even sure what that would mean. > --------------------------------------------------------- It would mean that there is a real physical object sitting there, and we have real bodies over here. And the senses bridge the gap, but imperfectly. In other words, a Kantian universe, rather than a Merleau-Pontian one. Anything that is not metaphysical in nature winds up being inherently empirical in nature. It is very difficult to say 'there is a physical world' and then not be totally constrained by the laws of physics that it portends. > Not> > > as far as we experience directly. Still, our deductive reasoning by which > > we > > 'conceptualize' table and deal with the 'table' that we coordinate between > > our > > momentary experiences and concepts works pretty well to allow us to eat, > > drink and > > be merry, or whatever else we do on the 'table'. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No disagreement. The patterns of relations among actually experienced > conditions are such that our minds are able to create this world of apparent > things, and navigate within it. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > So it may be that there *is* something resembling a 'table', but that we > > just > > can't experience it directly all at once, and thus shouldn't confuse > > concept with > > reality. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, the only thing I know for sure about that is that there is, in > principle, no way of knowing such a thing "out there" which is responsible > for our experience of table, for all we ever experience is the very content > of experience, itself. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > What happens if we neither confirm nor deny the existence of 'table' as an > > object > > out there, but really strive to distinguish between what we actually > > experience > > and what we *think* [conceptualize] that we experience? > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What happens if we neither confirm nor deny the existence of a self? I > think that is Victor's position. But the pragmatist position is that whatever > is not known, and is in principle unknowable is effectively nonexistent. > --------------------------------------------------- > I think it makes for much> > > more clear and skillful action, and more importantly, allows us to begin to > > discern the actuality of the mind and senses which leads us towards the > > necessary > > sati and panna needed for awakening. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. Whatever an individual finds helpful is that person's business. > I don't want to even begin to attempt to foist my position on you or anyone. > It makes sense to me. That's all. Could I be all wrong? Sure!! > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > And in the meantime I think it's also skillful to be mindful of how we use > > concepts in order to 'navigate' in samsara. It's not as if the need to use > > a fork > > goes away because one develops a bit of discernment. So how do we use > > concepts in > > the moment to coordinate the idea of 'fork' with the getting of the food to > > the > > mouth? Pretty interesting. > > > > Perhaps an arahant can navigate eating a meal using only the immediate > > sensations > > of > > hardness/coolness/roughness/sourness/under-the-tongueness/swallowing/etc., > > without forming a concept of 'food' or 'fork', which would explain the > > Buddhist > > meditation on food in which it takes five minutes to take and swallow one > > bite. > > > > Anyway, I wonder what you think about this? Distinguishing between concept > > and > > nama/rupa is important, but concepts also seem necessary. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The world we live in is a world of concepts, and concepts are needed > to function in it. I expect this is even so for a Buddha. I just don't think > a Buddha (or arahant) is taken in by those concepts. > ------------------------------------------------------- Yup, that makes sense. Best, Robert Ep. 14056 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] anicca --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard, > > --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Sarah and Robert - > > > Robert, you and I understand concepts to be thoughts/ideas, and > > not > > their alleged referents (which, in terms of direct experience, sometimes > > > > exist, but most often don't.) I believe that the firm of Sarah, Jon & > > Associates, Ltd (Does that have a good ring to it, Sarah? ;-)) > > systematically > > conflate the two, or, if not that, then, at least, when using the term > > 'concept', have the alleged referents in mind whereas we have the ideas > > in > > mind. > ..... > I’d rather suggest that the firm be called ‘pannatti’ as referred to in > the texts we are discussing --and clearly elaborated in the lists that > Goglerr and others have posted of all the various kinds of pannatti--and > encompassing as you point out, all ideas, including what you refer to as > ‘their alleged referents’, if these are not the paramattha dhammas > themselves. If I found Sarah, Jon & Asociates, Ltd (hmm, not sure about > the ring) were not sticking strictly to precise definitions in these > texts, especially those in the Abhidhamma where they are given in greatest > detail, I’d certainly like to have any differences pointed out. I > certainly have no interest in formulating any new theory and from my > understanding see no need. > ..... > >Thus, as I see it, there are two groups of people here, one group > > talking about A, the other talking about B, with A and B different, but > > we > > are all acting as though we mean the same thing. Such conversations can > > be > > amazingly coherent despite the fact that they shouldn't be at all! ;-)) > ..... > I think that if one group says A is right based on experience and > study of the Tipitaka and the other says the same about B, then it’s > helpful to look at the Tipitaka with the aid of ancient commentaries and > different Pali translations if necessary, to see if, with a little > teamwork, a happy resolution can be found.You’ve made mention once or > twice I think of the ‘orthodox Theravada position’. I certainly take the > orthodox position to include the Abhidhamma in the Tipitaka.(If the > commentaries and Abhidhamma are excluded from review and the Suttas are > interpreted in different ways which seem to accord with experience, then I > agree that it’s going to be a difficult discussion;-)) > > It may take a lifetime or few, or differences may remain, but considering, > checking and understanding a little more about the various mental states > and other ‘actualities’ (just borrowed from B.Bodhi for a change) in the > process can be very helpful. As Goglerr and I concluded, if differences or > ‘gaps’ remain, that’s fine too. > > Who knows, maybe Rob Ep will agree with S,J & Assocs this time;-)) > > Sarah > ===== I think I agree. Robert Ep. 14057 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:35am Subject: Re: Convention, Beliefs, and Pragmatics of Self Re: [dsg] Re: "ritual" [Rober... Next question: If there is no self, with which i agree, then what awakens? Answer: consciousness. But doesn't that make consciousness into something substantial? Robert Ep. =========== --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 5/21/02 3:51:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Hi Howard. > > I understand your point, and I would simply ask: Is there a way to propose > > letting go of the last vestige of personal or substantial self, without > > falling > > into annihilationism? > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would say that there is. There is, in fact, no self at all right > now. Any discerning right now is a conditioned, samsaric discerning, and it > is no self. There is no self to be found, and, thus, no self to be > annihilated. There are just conditions and the knowing of conditions, with > that knowing being yet one more condition, and with the advent of nibbana, > there is just the absence of conditions, and there is no *separate* knowing > of that absence, for that would be a condition, and thus what there *would* > be is beyond all categories, beyond description. (Even to use the word 'be' > is to be in error. To say *anything* is to be in error. Only silence would be > without error. This whole post is in error!) > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > And to me that necessitates something still existing, even though it is > > neither > > self nor form. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > ============================= > With metta, > Howard 14058 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Iddhi Hi Sarah. Well I will certainly agree that the path is long, and not as easy as I had first hoped! And I agree that without discernment, practices that might seem to be spiritually beneficial will merely be expressions of ignorance. Best, Robert Ep. ============== --- Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > I fully agree with you that the practice of samadhi/jhana pre-dates > Buddhism and is not unique to it. I certainly have no doubt about the > practices so prevalent in the texts. > > Without wishing to sound disrespectful in anyway, I do however question > whether TM levitation or any form of Astanga yoga taught today, for > example, have any element of jhana involved. > > As discussed, when referring to the psychic powers in the texts, these can > only be developed -- as Wynn pointed -- by those who had accomplished all > rupa and arupa jhanas plus additional preparations. We are talking about > what (for me) are incomprehensibly high levels of refined purity and > wholesome states. We are not just talking about very highly developed > concentration. > > If there is no clear understanding whilst doing yoga, TM , or any other > practice of the difference between kusala and akusala moments, I don’t > believe there can be any chance of even reaching base camp in the > development of samatha. > > So that’s why I made my original comment;-) > > Sarah > ===== > > > --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > > W:> > > How do you explain the levitation perform by the yogis of TM > > > > (Transcendental > > > > Meditation) > > S:> > I don’t try;-) Let me know what you think! > > > R:> Perhaps they have learned something akin to the jhanas. While the > Noble > > Eightfold > > Path and the discernment of anatta may be unique to Buddhism, the > > development of > > deep meditation states and psychic powers is not. > > > > Hindu practice of samadhi/jhana is about 10 - 15,000 years old, and very > > effective. There is no doubt that the yogins of old, as exemplified by > > Patanjali's yoga suttas, were masters of many of these states. The word > > jhana is > > the Pali for the Sanskrit dhyana, which is the core of the practice of > > the > > Ashtanga [eight-limbed] path of yoga, leading to ultimate Samadhi > > states. Dhyana, > > while important for Theravadan Buddhism in its Pali form as jhana, > > became the > > basis for the most important Mahayana sects as well: dhyana practice > > was > > transmitted from India to China by Bodhidharma, where they came to > > pronounce it > > 'Ch'an'. Ch'an Buddhism was brought from China to Japan, where the > > Japanese > > pronounced it....you guessed it: Zen. Jhana = Dhyana = Ch'an = Zen. > > Those sects > > which took their version of the name 'jhana or dhyana' as the name of > > their sect, > > emphasized sitting meditation and direct realization of nibbana/nirvana. > .......... 14059 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 11:15am Subject: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Hello RobEp - can I squeeze in here? :)) Dear Group, May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under several different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I often read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular path of practice. What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), Nyanaponika Thera says: (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. It comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the capacity of leading to effacement." Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are essential, not Samatha? My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent task in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of us, and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of controlling progress? I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to practice........ metta, Christine --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > Hi, it's me again. Thanks for the many replies sent over the past week or > > 2 to my earlier posts. I am slightly overwhelmed by the sheer number and > > size of them, ;-)), coming as they did all at once (there must have been 1 > > or 2 all-night sessions at around that time) but I can assure you I'll be > > getting round to replying, and soon I hope. > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Jon. > > > Well, I never saw this post and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for your > > > kind > > > explanation of the emphases in Abhidhamma. As I have been giving the > > Abhidhamma a > > > rather hard time on paramatha dhammas lately, and probably causing some > > akusala > > > reactions to arise towards myself, I would like to say that I think your > > > explanation for the emphasis on dry insight makes a lot of sense. The > > belief that > > > there will be subsequent lifetimes when the dhamma will not be available > > > also helps to explain the current emphasis on dhamma study. > > > > I'm glad you found something in the post that helps put the abhidhamma in > > a better perspective. > > > > I'm not sure whether your remark about 'emphasis on dry insight' refers to > > me or to the abhidhamma, but I wouldn't necessarily agree in either > > context. To my mind the Abhidhamma simply explains what is and what can > > possibly be, and in what combinations, rather than indicating what should > > be. It explains that samatha and insight are distinct forms of kusala > > each having its own cause and means of development, and leading to > > different goals. Samatha properly developed leads to jhana, and insight > > properly developed leads to enlightenment. > > > > For one who attains enlightenment having first attained jhana, the > > enlightenment *may* (but not *will necessarily*) be based on the jhana, > > but even so the enlightenment is the culmination of the development of > > insight and not of the samatha. > > > > I do not read the texts as suggesting that a person who attains > > enlightenment having first attained samatha does so because of any > > conscious decision on the matter, any more than a person chooses to be > > born as a member of one sex or the other, yet you could say that in either > > case that outcome nevertheless depends wholly and solely on choices made > > by the person in his or her previous lives. > > > > Likewise in my own studies, I see no 'emphasis on dry insight', but simply > > an attempt to understand what is the essence of insight, as distinct from > > samatha. I believe that whatever one's inclinations to samatha, this > > knowledge is indispensible and is available to us only during the > > dispensation of a Buddha. > > > > Jon > > Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is not > necessary. To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree with you [!] > that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening factor. My sense of > the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization are a > factor in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that > are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality. But i would like to see > what the Visudhimagga says. So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come > up with. > > I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does > not lead to insight or enlightenment. So there must at the very least be a > balance. The jhanas, i would think, being very deep samadhic states which are > difficult to attain and require special types of concentration might be less prone > to a kind of dull bliss-state without insight. There must be some reason why so > many aspirants were practicing the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently > with his approval? > > Best, > Robert Ep. 14060 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipanna from the Scriptures Shin Nice to see you back. And thanks for the reminder that satipatthana can be developed only by understanding the actual teachings of the Buddha, not by any other understanding or 'practice'. I am impressed by the range of texts you mention below. Do you have them with you where you are now (Sarah tells me you have been away from Thailand for some time)? You are fortunate in being able to refer to the Thai texts, as some of these are not yet available in English. Looking forward to hearing more from you. Jon --- shiau_in_lin wrote: > Dearest Sarah, > I am coming in to share information from the Tipitaka, Attasalini, > Tika,Nekkiparana,Visuddhimagga,VisuddhimaggaTika,Abhidhammasangaha. > The Benefits of Developing Satipanna from Scriptures ... > > If we only contemplate just the visible object which appears, it will > detach the total idea of self or it will not completely eracidate the > idea of a concept in everything we see. > It requires full knowledge of the Abhidhamma and how it is > conditioned and the practice of it according to the scripture, then > we can understand the truth nature of Ariya Sacca Dhamma and its 3 > characters of Anicca,Dukkha,Anatta of all things. > > This is a very small portion of what I would like to share from the > scripture, which have explained completely and perfectly already by > the Buddha. > If there is anything which I have said or done, pls pardon me. > Thankyou. > Anumodana, > Shin 14061 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities. Hi, Rob - I have almost nothing to add to this post of yours. Just a brief comment or two in the midst. In a message dated 6/28/02 10:26:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear Howard, > This is a very nice post, and one of the clearest on paramatha dhammas to > my mind. > Allow to make a few comments back, interspersed below: > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > In a message dated 5/22/02 10:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > <> writes: > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > > Hi, Jon - > > > > > > > > In a message dated 5/22/02 8:50:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > <> writes: > > > > > > > > > Howard > > > > > > > > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > â€| > > > > > > We are in basic agreement on this Robert, but, actually, I > > > > think > > > > > > that > > > > > > Abidhamma is as well. As I understand it, the Buddhist > perspective, > > > and > > > > > > most explicitly so in Abhidhamma, is a phenomenalist one which > > > doesn't > > > > > > countenance objects existing independently of experience. > > > > > > > > > > Here I have to enter a possible disagreement, but one that I hope > may > > > also > > > > > turn out to be more a matter of terminology than of substance ;-). > > > > > > > > > > > There is no hardness other than the experience of hardness, > > > > > > at least none that can be actually known. > > > > > > > > > > I see a difference between the 2 assertions in your preceding > > > statement, > > > > > namely that-- > > > > > (a) There is no hardness other than the hardness being experienced. > > > > > (b) There is no hardness that can be actually known other than the > > > > > hardness being experienced > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > Howard: > > > > There *is* a difference. Position (b) is the general > phenomenalist > > > > > > > one. Position (a) is the radical phenomenalist one which represents > an > > > > admixture of phenomenalism with pragmatism - what is in principle > > > unknowable > > > > is "as good as" nonexistent. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The statement at (b) is clearly so, in terms of the teachings (to > my > > > > > understanding). > > > > > > > > > > The statement at (a) needs to be qualified, I think. Hardness like > any > > > > > other reality arises because of conditions. In the case of the > > > hardness > > > > > that we take as being part of an inanimate object (like a table, > tree > > > or > > > > > building), those conditions do not include the fact of their being > the > > > > > object of someone's citta. In other words, the hardness does not > arise > > > > > dependent on there being someone there to experience it. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Howard: > > > > Ahh, but "the hardness that we take as being part of an > inanimate > > > > object (like a table, tree or building)" is concept-only. There being > no > > > > tables, trees, and buildings, there is no hardness possessed by them. > > > > > > > Dear Howard, > > > I wonder if it's really correct to say that there are "no tables, trees > an > > > buildings'. > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > From my perspective, it is conventionally false but ultimately > (and > > pragmatically) true. That's my perspective - perspective (a), but I'm not > > > suggesting it be anyone else's. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Well, just again to clarify this position, because it is extremely radical; > you > are saying that you believe that an actual object made of wood sitting on > four > legs probably does not actually exist. We put that together through the > concept > that unifies a number of different phenomenal properties experienced > through > feeling-door, seeing-door, etc., one moment at a time, such as hardness, > smoothness, 'woody smell', 'visual whorls', angle shape, pain [interpreted > as > bumping into table], etc.? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. ---------------------------------------------- > > It is also possible to say less radically, but perhaps less > Buddhistically.....'I > do believe the concept is a sketch of something that probably *is* out > there, a > square object on legs that has plates and things actually on it. However, > a human > being cannot perceive this 'whole object' - all we get are aspects, one at > a time, > and put the picture together more or less accurately through experience. > And: at > any time when we do encounter the table, we always encounter it in relation > to our > current perception and intention, so it is never the same table, but is > variously > the table to set, the table to sit at, the table to eat at, the table to > lean on > while talking, etc. So there is not an 'is' table that is always the same, > but > there is some kind of physical object out there independent of us, > probably.' > > And that would also be a reasonable assertion from our experience of > sensual > details and unifying concepts. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: And yes. But not my position. --------------------------------------------- > > Phenomenology was actually my area of concentration for my BA in Philosophy > many > centuries ago in the last ice age, and my sense from studying Husserl, > Merleau-Ponty and a bit of Sartre [The Transcendence of the Ego] was that > they > were more inclined to the second position, which is a bit more > common-sensical. > But they veered towards your position at times as well. I think they > straddled > the line. > > I think that if the more radical formulation is taken as true, one has to > truly > look at this life as a dream in order to have that make any sense; in other > words, > one has to doubt the inherent solidity of physical reality, and work with > the idea > that this reality is basically a product of mind only, that there is no > physical > universe. It's a phantasm. Under that formulation, the creation of > conceptual > objects through acts of nama and rupa makes sense. A seeming physical > existence > with a seeming body having seeming sense-moments, all produced as a kind of > hallucination. A kind of juggling act which keeps the concept of table > alive > through producing rupas of hardness, etc. I am not sure if this is where > the > Abhidhamma leads or not, I think some here would object to this radical a > formulation. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Like a dream, yes. That's how I see it. However, and I think this is important, the mind-created world we "live in" is *not* completely arbitrary, but is based on actual relations of a variety of sorts holding among the paramattha dhammas, and, the paramattha dhammas that we encounter are based on our kamma. --------------------------------------------------- > > I kind of gravitate towards this. In a dream, things seem solid and whole, > but > they are just pliable and partial, subject to the mind's creative bent. > But each > thing created seems to take its logical place, even though it wasn't there > a > moment before. > > > Just as Buddha was unwilling to say bluntly that 'there is no self',> > > > I doubt he would assert the nonexistence of tables either. Rather, I > think > > > he > > > might say that the idea that we experience a 'table' when we experience > > > > 'hardness' > > > is a concept. And we can never know 'table' since the concept 'table' > is a > > > collection of experiences that each add up to only one or another > direct > > > quality. > > > None of these ever adds up to 'table' in actual experience, only as a > > > deductive > > > conclusion. Experientially speaking, and in the service of knowing the > > > > reality of > > > the present moment, 'table' does not exist except as a concept. But > this > > > does not > > > mean that 'table' as some sort of cosmic reality outside of experience > > > either does > > > or doesn't exist. It just means what Jon said when he cited version > (b) > > > and said > > > that version (a) that no other object existed except for the one > > > experienced was > > > much more radical, perhaps more radical than necessary. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Conventionally there are tables, and there is a keyboard that I am > > > typing on, and a chair I am sitting on. What is more, I am perceiving all > > > these things "out there". That's conventional truth, and it enables me to > > > function quite nicely in this world, this intersubjective realm of > > experience, which is MIND MADE. But when I look carefully - very > carefully, I > > actually only experience what the Abhidhammikas call paramattha dhammas, > and > > these are all "in here", not "out there" - and, of course, impermanent, > > unsatisfactory, impersonal, and insubstantial. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Yup, I believe you're saying that the physical universe is inherently > insubstantial and holographic in nature. Please correct me if I'm wrong. > I agree > that perceptions are really 'in here' rather than 'out there' although > there's no > 'inside' to a mental projection. It's just 'of mind', neither inner nor > outer, > since there are really no objects to be inside or outside of. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear on the holography business. That is not necessarily part of my take. ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > So is there a table somewhere out in the world beyond the senses of > humans? > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I don't think so. I'm actually not even sure what that would mean. > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > It would mean that there is a real physical object sitting there, and we > have real > bodies over here. And the senses bridge the gap, but imperfectly. In > other > words, a Kantian universe, rather than a Merleau-Pontian one. > > Anything that is not metaphysical in nature winds up being inherently > empirical in > nature. It is very difficult to say 'there is a physical world' and then > not be > totally constrained by the laws of physics that it portends. > > > Not> > > > as far as we experience directly. Still, our deductive reasoning by > which > > > we > > > 'conceptualize' table and deal with the 'table' that we coordinate > between > > > our > > > momentary experiences and concepts works pretty well to allow us to > eat, > > > drink and > > > be merry, or whatever else we do on the 'table'. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > No disagreement. The patterns of relations among actually > experienced > > conditions are such that our minds are able to create this world of > apparent > > things, and navigate within it. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > So it may be that there *is* something resembling a 'table', but that > we > > > just > > > can't experience it directly all at once, and thus shouldn't confuse > > > concept with > > > reality. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > Well, the only thing I know for sure about that is that there is, > in > > principle, no way of knowing such a thing "out there" which is > responsible > > for our experience of table, for all we ever experience is the very > content > > of experience, itself. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > What happens if we neither confirm nor deny the existence of 'table' as > an > > > object > > > out there, but really strive to distinguish between what we actually > > > experience > > > and what we *think* [conceptualize] that we experience? > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > What happens if we neither confirm nor deny the existence of a > self? I > > think that is Victor's position. But the pragmatist position is that > whatever > > is not known, and is in principle unknowable is effectively nonexistent. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > I think it makes for much> > > > more clear and skillful action, and more importantly, allows us to > begin to > > > discern the actuality of the mind and senses which leads us towards the > > > > necessary > > > sati and panna needed for awakening. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Okay. Whatever an individual finds helpful is that person's > business. > > I don't want to even begin to attempt to foist my position on you or > anyone. > > It makes sense to me. That's all. Could I be all wrong? Sure!! > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > And in the meantime I think it's also skillful to be mindful of how we > use > > > concepts in order to 'navigate' in samsara. It's not as if the need to > use > > > a fork > > > goes away because one develops a bit of discernment. So how do we use > > > concepts in > > > the moment to coordinate the idea of 'fork' with the getting of the > food to > > > the > > > mouth? Pretty interesting. > > > > > > Perhaps an arahant can navigate eating a meal using only the immediate > > > sensations > > > of > > > > hardness/coolness/roughness/sourness/under-the-tongueness/swallowing/etc., > > > without forming a concept of 'food' or 'fork', which would explain the > > > Buddhist > > > meditation on food in which it takes five minutes to take and swallow > one > > > bite. > > > > > > Anyway, I wonder what you think about this? Distinguishing between > concept > > > and > > > nama/rupa is important, but concepts also seem necessary. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > The world we live in is a world of concepts, and concepts are > needed > > to function in it. I expect this is even so for a Buddha. I just don't > think > > a Buddha (or arahant) is taken in by those concepts. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Yup, that makes sense. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14062 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:43am Subject: Re: Convention, Beliefs, and Pragmatics of Self Re: [dsg] Re: "ritual" [Rober... Hi, Rob - In a message dated 6/28/02 10:36:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Next question: > If there is no self, with which i agree, then what awakens? > > Answer: consciousness. But doesn't that make consciousness into something > substantial? > > Robert Ep. > ============================= Nothing awakens. There is just the event of awakening, which means the destruction of the taints. It is a ceasing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14063 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 0:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of > yours by > a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara > Nikaya > which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of > concentration, > and 3) formal meditation. > The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as > *including* > formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). > The three refererences are the following: > 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] > 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] > 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] > These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, > An > Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & > Bhikkhu > Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. > > With metta, > Howard Thanks for the homework, Howard (!) Actually, I look forward to reading these suttas over the weekend. I am pleased to know (if I read you correctly) that it is not something within the Satipatthana Sutta itself that leads you to the understanding in question (although I of course would agree that a sutta should always be read in the context of other suttas and the Tipitika as a whole, and never in isolation). Jon 14064 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thoughts triggered by Squirrels Chris --- christine_forsyth wrote: > This ramble isn't Larry's fault ....... let's blame it on the > Squirrel! > > Dear Jon, Sarah, Sukin, (not sure if you were all there, but you are > the Usual Suspects) Yes, I was there, and remember the incident (and the breakfast -- string hoppers with curry sauce). I think you have summed it up pretty well. > I wonder if any or you will remember the incident I am thinking > of ..... It was at breakfast time, in Sri Lanka, at the Hotel where > we had to walk a long way through the gardens to our rooms, past the > restaurant with a roof and no walls, past the swimming pool and the > lagoon with the night frogs, and I was upstairs from S & J ....... > well, while we were having breakfast a squirrel ran across the > rafters of the open air restaurant (I never knew squirrels lived > anywhere else but North America and Walt Disney movies until I saw > one in Bangkok with Mike and Amara - and this one in Sri Lanka....). > I think some in the larger group had gone to feed fish, and between > talking of about people feeding the squirrel and the fish (and > monkeys and kangaroos) I'm sure there was a Dhamma discussion that > concerned ethics, and whether meaning to do well by animals was > kusala if you didn't consider the (possible) well known results of > feeding the food of one species to others who may not have the > correct length intestines to digest it. .....And was it then > akusala - if you didn't think things through and just did the > sentimental 'isn't this fun and aren't they cute' action? Or was I > just thinking all of that, and now I can't tell real memories from > actual memories :):) ? > > Ive read this through and it doesn't seem very coherent, but I've had > a long day and don't think my editing will help it any...... > > metta, > Chris Just a brief comment, that came to mind recently in relation to another interesting thread of yours (suicide) but which I didn't have time to join in on. These situations (suicide, feeding animals etc) are really just concepts. This means that it's generally not possible to say anything categoric about them, because one person's understading or experience will not match another's. I think this is particularly helpful to keep in mind when reading about events in the time of the Buddha. It is temptiong to project our own mores and social values, forgetting that these have no relevance to the quality of the citta of the person involved. Getting back to feeding animals, and bearing in mind that the 'quality' of the deed depends on the quality of the accompanying mental state, all we can say about that, I think, is that it will definitely be mixed, and probably predominantly akusala. The other thing we could say is that this would also be the case if we refrained from feeding the animals ;-)). Jon 14065 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 6/29/02 12:52:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > > > I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of > > yours by > > a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara > > Nikaya > > which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of > > concentration, > > and 3) formal meditation. > > The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as > > *including* > > formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). > > The three refererences are the following: > > 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] > > 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] > > 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] > > These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, > > An > > Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & > > Bhikkhu > > Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > Thanks for the homework, Howard (!) > > Actually, I look forward to reading these suttas over the weekend. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I apologize for having given the material to you just by reference, and not quoting it. The light on my scanner needs replacing. Otherwise, I would have quoted the material for you. ------------------------------------------------------ > > I am pleased to know (if I read you correctly) that it is not something > within the Satipatthana Sutta itself that leads you to the understanding > in question (although I of course would agree that a sutta should always > be read in the context of other suttas and the Tipitika as a whole, and > never in isolation). -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is primarily the taking of this sutta as part of the whole body of scripture that permits the interpretration of both formal and informal meditation as being included, though the very first section on mindfulness of breath does, indeed, suggest standard sitting meditation. Other parts of the section on mindfulness of the body are more noncommittal, suggesting to me both formal and informal walking and standing meditation, but definitely not being explicit. Sometimes the distinction between formal and informal blurs anyway. For example, when walking, one may, as a result of purposeful intent, note that one is about to turn, and that one does then turn. This can be "informal". It does provide a level of understanding. On the other hand, in a "formal" session of walking meditation, in which one is repeatedly and slowly walking back and forth along a 20-30 pace path, constantly and carefully noting with focus the foot placements and changes, the associated sensations, the intentions to turn, the turning, and the wandering of one's attention, concentration and mindfulness tend to become quite heightened, one's "state" changes, one's attention becomes quite microscopic, and clarity is enhanced. Inasmuch as the formal practice of, especially sitting and walking, meditation has been a part of the tradition in all schools for a couple thousand years, and inasmuch as all schools revere the satipatthana sutta and anapanasat sutta and relate their practice to them, I find it reasonable to infer that these suttas do not exclude formal meditation practice. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14066 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:30pm Subject: Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation --- Dear Chris., These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive of the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello RobEp - can I squeeze in here? :)) > > Dear Group, > > May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under several > different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I often > read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - > everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not > just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and > understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular > path of practice. > > What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal > sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, > absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? > > Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my > defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to > read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at > http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. > In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being > the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), > Nyanaponika Thera says: > (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human > consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of > each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of > effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary > subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and > insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the > mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. It > comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime > meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such > quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, > and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the > capacity of leading to effacement." > Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are > essential, not Samatha? > 14067 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Shin, Nice to see you here. Being a very lazy person when it comes to studying, I really appreciate it when anyone posts some information from the Tipitaka so that I get to read it a little at a time at a pace my accumulations allow. Hope you remain here to benefit me and others like me( are there others??), quoting texts we would otherwise never read. One comment you made when I first came to know Abhidhamma, which made a big difference to my outlook, was when you made reference to your 3 yrs. of being absorbed in the study of the Visudhimagga. You realized that it was mana which made you think that you could develop understanding by studying on your own. This comment "clicked" and made me appreciate the importance of kalayanmitta even more. It showed me another face of mana. It is not that one as a result then comes to blindly believe a teacher or wise friend, in anycase one still has to use one's own understanding to interpret anything. What happens in this case is, one gets to view an interpretation different from what one's accumulated panna or lack of it would naturally be inclined toward. We usually end up taking the path of least resistence, and this is more often than not, wrong. The interpretations we make will be conditioned mainly by our accumulated views, so I think we have to be very careful. Whatever we do accumulates as sankhara khandha. If I study to accumulate, that is what I will develop a habit to, if I study to 'understand' that will be my tendency. If I think I will have to study all the details before I can come to understand "reality", then I am developing a habit of postponing the study of the present moment. Panna has to start little at a time, we cannot expect to have any deep understanding of realities if we have never taken the first step. Theory can condition more avijja, as in handling the snake by the tail, if one thinks that "the more the theory the better it is" we will get bitten. Theory can be condition for panna, but only when conditions are there. Is there any use in trying to understand paticcasamupada for instance, if one does not have any understanding about the difference between moments of kamma and moments of vippaka? I think in studying too much theory, one is carried away by the logic of it. One might see the gradual progress in understanding of more complex concepts as a progress along the path. This I think is dangerous. What we take with us when we die, is not the words in the Tipitaka, nor pali, but the panna or avijja we have accumulated. Next life we may be born in Rome or someplace, we will never remember any of the texts we have studied, but if we have understanding, we can get in touch with Buddhism again even if our parents are staunch Catholics:-). I hope you take this as a friendly exchange of views and do not mind my stressing certain points. Hope to see more of you around. metta, Sukin. -----Original Message----- From: shiau_in_lin Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 2:15 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Sarah, > I'm not sure that I fully agree, however, with your comment above > about `with constant thinking......'. This may just be a language > issue, but surely awareness (sati) rather than thinking will lead > to more insight? We can use anything word or call it whatever but the process of the citta has accumulated the contemplating of the realities or about the realities. At that moment, it is already the accumulation of panna and sati. There is definitely no attachment of the sensual objects, only letting go of ignorance. Everything is accumulated, even if you memorized the whole Tipitaka, it will be a Upanissa-paccaya in the future. And when it is conditioned, it will arise. Remember Javana citta and all the Paccaya. We are not looking at only now. There is still a future Khanda or Ayatana. I will not be able to come in as often as I can. BUT if there is anything which is nice, I will try my best to quote it from the Tipitaka and other commentaries for the reference of others. Sarah ! In most Sutta,the Lord Buddha constantly mentioned the Bhukkhuis to remember and contemplate his teaching. I believe in him. If it is not beneficiary, why would he say it !...Doesn't that make you wonder ? Any way it is up to your own faith. From my recent experiences, it has helped me in understanding the realities in my daily life because it is like a road map for me to reference on. OK ! I guess I am talking more than I should. Take care. Kalayamitta, Shin 14068 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shinto Dear Howard How are you? You wrote: "Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying stripes, even different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in views and practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family fights".)" I do not think we have to imagine it. We can observe all along the peace and harmony between followers of different Buddhist traditions. Have you ever heard of Buddhist countries going to war due to different views? You could witness how Theravada Buddhist countries in South East Asia have close ties with Mahayana Buddhist countries in East Asia, for example. Within Theravada Buddhist countries, there are also Mahayana Buddhist communities. I had live in such a Theravada Buddhist country, and I have never heard of any conflict between the citizens due to different Buddhist backgrounds. Myanmar is famous for its pure Theravada tradition, yet Tibetans also live as indigenous people in Northern Mountainous regions of Myanmar and follow their own tradition of Buddhism mixed with their unique ethnic elements. And why not? The so-called "fights" Howard mentioned are only myths and seem to be manufactured by Buddhist scholars in the Religious Departments who take pride in the so-called "Critical Studies". Whatever polemic they engaged are usually agaist Theravada Buddhism in general, and Pali Commentaries and Abhidhamma in particular. For example, Mrs Rhys Davids and her modern followers, neo-Rhys-Davidsites with PhDs. Why I was doing Pali at the ANU in Canberra during early 80s, a PhD (Buddhist Studies) student asked me what Buddhism I followed. When I answered "Theravada", he told me I was selfish. I didn't know how I could be selffish as Theravada advocates no self, as would Mahayana. SMILE. So I did not argue and kept the Noble Silence. There you have it, Howard. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 6/27/02 8:08:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > robert writes: > > > > Dear Group, > > Today I went with some of my students to a Shinto temple and we > > talked to one of the priests. The temple is rather serene and you > > feel quite peaceful in the grounds. The priest was humble and calm > > and told us about the age (circa 500A.D), and some of the rituals. > > What was interesting was that the people who go to the shrine, when > > they die, the funeral will be conducted by a Buddhist priest. He > > explained that Buddhism and Shinto have different philosophies and > > practices but that they are very friendly. > > It's one of the things I like about living in Japan, 127 million > > people on a relatively small piece of land but they try to harmonize > > and humility is seen as a high virtue. I learn a lot living here. > > robert > > > =========================== > This is lovely. Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying > stripes, even different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in > views and practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it > is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family fights".) > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14069 From: Howard Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shinto Hi, Suan - You make good and important points. I have no doubt that, on average, there is more amiability among Buddhists of all schools than is to be found elsewhere. My post grew out of experiences on another Buddhist list, and it expresses a bit of dismay that cordiality and tolerance, as good as they are among Buddhists, aren't even better. The DSG, due largely to the wonderful stewardship of Sarah and Jon, is a marvelous refuge of harmony and tolerance. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/29/02 11:29:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Suan writes: > > Dear Howard > > How are you? > > You wrote: > > "Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying stripes, even > different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in views and > practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it > is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family > fights".)" > > I do not think we have to imagine it. We can observe all along the > peace and harmony between followers of different Buddhist traditions. > Have you ever heard of Buddhist countries going to war due to > different views? > > You could witness how Theravada Buddhist countries in South East Asia > have close ties with Mahayana Buddhist countries in East Asia, for > example. Within Theravada Buddhist countries, there are also Mahayana > Buddhist communities. I had live in such a Theravada Buddhist > country, and I have never heard of any conflict between the citizens > due to different Buddhist backgrounds. > > Myanmar is famous for its pure Theravada tradition, yet Tibetans also > live as indigenous people in Northern Mountainous regions of Myanmar > and follow their own tradition of Buddhism mixed with their unique > ethnic elements. And why not? > > The so-called "fights" Howard mentioned are only myths and seem to be > manufactured by Buddhist scholars in the Religious Departments who > take pride in the so-called "Critical Studies". Whatever polemic they > engaged are usually agaist Theravada Buddhism in general, and Pali > Commentaries and Abhidhamma in particular. For example, Mrs Rhys > Davids and her modern followers, neo-Rhys-Davidsites with PhDs. > > Why I was doing Pali at the ANU in Canberra during early 80s, a PhD > (Buddhist Studies) student asked me what Buddhism I followed. When I > answered "Theravada", he told me I was selfish. I didn't know how I > could be selffish as Theravada advocates no self, as would Mahayana. > SMILE. So I did not argue and kept the Noble Silence. > > There you have it, Howard. > > With kind regards, > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14070 From: goglerr Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:06am Subject: Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Dear Group, Ch:May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under several different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I often read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular path of practice. What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? _____________________________________________ G: Chris, let's go straight to your point. The Buddha mentioned in The Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), "This is the one–way path for the purication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of the method (Path), for the realiazation of Nibbana, namely the 4 foundation of Mindfulness". When the word `bhikkhu' (monk) is mentioned, it also include nun and lay folks. Many other parts of the Canon, "Bhikkhus, these four foudations of mindfulness, when developed and cultivated, are noble and emancipating; they lead the one acts upon them to complete dectruction of suffering". Of course, they are also based upon the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 fold Path. We have to get our sequence right. First, to realize the cessation of dukkha, Nibbana, is to arouse mindfulness (which later penatrative wisdom will develop) is the priority. Next, how to arouse the mindfulness? By the contemplation/observation of the 4 foundation of mindfulness contemplation the body as body, feeling as feeling, mind as mind and mind-objects as mind-objects. In what way or how should we contemplate them? The Buddha continued `....(we should be) ardent (very diligent), fully aware, and mindful, having put away coveteouesness and grieft for the world.' In means that we have to put forth our mental effort (not lazy or care-less), with clarity of mind and able to `let go' the sensual desire and ill-will. This is not a question of in-control or non-control or clinging to the idea of progress or even self. Rather, the mechanics of paticcasamupada takes effect, simply, if this arise/occur, that will arise/occur; if we put in the right effort, we will arouse the right mindfulness, and the right mindfulness will snow-ball to right liberation. Then, what must we do? Then the Buddha carry on to explain "Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and establish mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in and mindful he breathe out..." Nowadays, we have meditation monasteries spread all over the world, which caters for anybody, may it be monks or ordinary lay folks who are interested in meditation. Then, the method to sit, that is called the lotus posture. This is what we mean by `formal sitting'. It may not be that comfortable for many a westeners, but for easterners it's very natural for them. Other ways we can use a bench or a chair. How about formal walking or even other postures? The Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, when walking, a bhikkhu undertsands: `I am walking'; when standing. he understand: `I am standing'; when sitting, he understand `I am sitting'; when lying down, he understand `I am lying down'; or he understands acordingly however his body is disposed. The Buddha also mentioned 5 benefits of walking meditation inother sutta. 1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) strenghten the mental effort for overall practice 3) balacing between sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) builds durable concentration. Many disciples of the Buddha in the Canon, they do walking meditation. Hmm....let's see. Sona Thera, he was to doing walking meditation vigorously until the Buddha intsructed him to balance his mind. Elder Ananda was doing walking meditation just before he attained full enlightenment. There are some people who say something like these `just be aware of our seeing, smelling, hearing , tasting , touching, and thinking or whatever we are doing.', as in whatever we are doing in our daily life. Well, they not wrong too. And the Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is one who acts in full awareness when going forward and returning, who acts in full awareness in looking ahead and looking away, who acts in full awareness when extending or bending his arms, who acts in full awareness when wearing his robes and carring his outer robes and bowls (nowadays it means our clothing and attire), who acts in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, and tasting; who acts in full awareness when defecating and urinating; who acts in full awareness when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, or keeping silent.' Is it not that easy though, to keep the mind focus on the activities, more often than not the mind wander off (unmindfully) to all sort of things. A good sense of basic morality and discpline through bodily, speech and mind, are essential too. The Buddha laid down the 5 precepts as the basic code of human conduct, not just as for the condusive for social harmony but also acts as a foundation for mental cultivation. Transgresing the basic code, will somehow eats into our conscience, where remorse and regret will surface (someday, sometime!), shake and waver the stability of the mind, and ultimately the mental hindrances will have the upper hand, thus making the mental development difficult. A journey into a thick dense forest, we need a knowledgeble guide. The guide, he himself has gone through it all. He knew the traps, the pit falls, the raging rivers, and with compassion, he instructs us to avoid them, and walk that ancient path where elders of the old had trodden. `At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Saripautta apprached the Blessed One...and said to him: "Venerable sir, this is the entire holy life, that is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship." "Good! Good! Sariputta! This is the entire holy life, Sariputta, that is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship. When a bhikkhu has a good friend, good companion, a good comrade, it is to expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path."' (SN 45:3) And it is true, we need or seek a good spritual friend(s) to guide us on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times, the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher – and I humbly say, this is compulsary. So as u see from here, not to say formal sitting or walking are compulsory but they are very effective to develop mindfulness. But mindfulness is one of the compulsary `ingredients' for Nibbana. _______________________________________________________ Ch: Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), Nyanaponika Thera says: (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. It comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the capacity of leading to effacement." Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are essential, not Samatha? _________________________________________________ G: When the Bodhisatta searching for the enlightenment during his 6 wandering years, he met two ascetics by the name of Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta. The former attained the 7th stage of Jhana and the latter attained highest, the 8th stage. But both of them was not enlightened. Why? They don't have Insights. We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe any paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some `tranquilizers'. But then it only a mean to the end, and not the end itself. After attaining some degree of concentration, we have to `switch' object, from a conceptual object to a paramattha object which is the 5 Aggregates, that where's Vipassana comes into play. Samatha and Vipassana complementing each other in many ways. ________________________________________________________ Ch:My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent task in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of us, and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of controlling progress? ______________________________________________ G: The Buddha said `All worldlings are mad'. Worldlings means those who have not attain any stages of santity. We are still bounded by the cords of sensual desire, lust, anger, hatred, vengence, jealousy, pride, ego, `I', views, etc. Aren't we `mad'? The Buddha also said `I only teach dukkha and the end of dukkha'. The end of the day, we should seek the `End', the eradication of all defilement and the end of samsara. But then....each one of us have a different pace due so many seen and unseen factors, may it be our parami, sense of urgency, way of life, tendencies, personality, defilement, kamma, understading etc. It all depend on us, and no, not the idea of controlling or whatever, it just a matter of `if you do it, you will get it'. __________________________________________________ I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to practice........ metta, Christine ________________________________________________ That's all for now, Chris----byee Goglerr 14071 From: sumane758 Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 3:46am Subject: Re: Sri Lanka Visit Dear Jon, Sukin & all, I feel bad that I take time to respond. This is because of so much commitment to my job – providing solace to my countrymen in dire straits (by virtue of my job in a bank), the time constraints entailing the effort (which involves extensive travel to remote areas without e-mail), the use of office PC-server-mail box for dhamma communications etc. I am impressed & inspired with your kind words on my contributions at the Colombo Meeting & to the List. Whatever, I don't deserve so much praise for what I have done since I could have done more for you nice people here, I should have but I didn't. I was all-eager to meet the Group & discuss, especially K Sujin. Sarah would bear evidence to my enthusiasm thereon and with so early notice given, I think I should have done more. Little things like visiting the Hotel & looking into arrangements before your arrival, especially when Nihal was conversant with the venue & the facilities it offered. This may be because of a feeling of alien-ness towards you all, generated with a feeling of humbleness/inferiority originating from the lesser knowledge of dhamma; may be, may not be but the greatest thing is that I now know, if it was so, then it all is unfounded. That's after meeting you all. K Sujin is special. I had read of her on the web, a little of her dedication to understand & make understand the Buddha teachings. I wouldn't have been that hesitant had it been to see Khun Sujin. There isn't any barrier to utter what I felt like (of dhamma) with her reverence. Whatever I uttered was because she was there & of course Jon made it so simple, so pertinent & that it mattered so much. I am indebted to Jon for making my utterance the priority then at the Meeting & Sarah that I should meet Khun Sujin, before by e-mail. You have displayed that you are compassionate tolerant people. That, you made the first thing known. Even with that, I think that I was late! Regards! Sumane Rathnasuriya 14072 From: sumane758 Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 5:05am Subject: Re: photos --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I had some photos of SL put on a CD.... Christine, You may by now already gone to the photo shop with your CD. If not, are you sure the photos on CD are not "Read only"? If that is the case, (if they are Read only), try change that status & upload to Yahoo. I may be taking coal to New Castle but for whomever in List to benefit, let me briefly note the process. To change "Read only" status of a file :- 1. Right click the Icon of the file 2. Click "Properties" on the drop-down 3. On the General tab Clear the "Read Only" check box To Change more than one file in a Dialog Box:- Select/highlight the required files i.e. Edit Menu > "Select All" to select all files Shift Key > Left Click 1st & last icons to select a series Ctrl Key > Left Click desired icons to select files at random & follow 1. to 3. above. Re: Large images, if this is due to High resolution of the picture (Camera settings/Bitmap Image format) you could try: 1. Open the pic 2. Image Menu > Click "Resize" 3. Select a lower resolution in the Dialog box (Proportionate to the existing measurements-or the picture will be out of proportionate) 4. Click "OK" 5. If the Pic is out-of-shape, then DO NOT SAVE 6. File Menu > Click "Save As" 7. In "Save As Type" select JPG/JPEG etc. 8. Save You may even try 1., 6., 7. & 8. If the foregoing doesn't work, you'll need to visit the photo shop. But if you are thru with the "Read only" issue you can still upload to Yahoo by selecting "Medium" or "Small" button before pressing "Upload" Good Luck! Metta Sumane 14073 From: TG Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. In a message dated 6/28/2002 3:19:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <> writes: > As you wish, Howard. : ) > > but it still remains a problem that everything that exists is contained > within the > five kandhas, including namas; and that nibbana is a nama that is > unconditioned by > Hi Robert Ep. I've never heard anyone call or claim that Nibbana was a "nama" before. I was wondering where you got that idea? Also, to my knowledge the Budda never made a statement that "everything that exists is contained within the 5 khandas." The 5 khandas to my knowledge is the description of human "parts". Thanks for considering the above points. TG 14074 From: Howard Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/29/02 6:29:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TG writes: > > As you wish, Howard. : ) > > > > but it still remains a problem that everything that exists is contained > > within the > > five kandhas, including namas; and that nibbana is a nama that is > > unconditioned by > > > > Hi Robert Ep. > > I've never heard anyone call or claim that Nibbana was a "nama" before. I > was wondering where you got that idea? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is found in Abhidhamma. ------------------------------------------------ > > Also, to my knowledge the Budda never made a statement that "everything > that > exists is contained within the 5 khandas." The 5 khandas to my knowledge > is > the description of human "parts". > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is the following: ***************************** Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.23 Sabba Sutta The All Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." ****************************** > > Thanks for considering the above points. > > TG > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14075 From: TG Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. In a message dated 6/29/2002 3:49:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Howard writes: > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.23 > > > > Sabba Sutta > > > > The All > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will > speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, > "What > is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & > flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is > called > the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe > another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his > statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to > grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." > Would it be correct to say that "The All" is the same thing as the 5 Khandas? I think that the 5 khandas deal with "the all" but I think they are described in different situations for particular reasons. Is Nibbana part of "the all?" It seems it could not be. TG 14076 From: Howard Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life. Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/29/02 7:57:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TG writes: > > In a message dated 6/29/2002 3:49:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Howard writes: > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.23 > > > > > > > > Sabba Sutta > > > > > > > > The All > > > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will > > speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, > > "What > > is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & > > > flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is > > called > > the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe > > > another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his > > statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to > > grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." > > > > Would it be correct to say that "The All" is the same thing as the 5 > Khandas? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think so. Generally, the 5 khandhas and the 12 pairs of senses and sense domains seem to be two alternate schemes for the same phenomena. ---------------------------------------------------- > > I think that the 5 khandas deal with "the all" but I think they are > described > in different situations for particular reasons. > > Is Nibbana part of "the all?" It seems it could not be. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would say not. The "all" seems to be consist of presences, of existences, of positive conditions (empty though they are), whereas nibbana is exactly the absence of all conditions. Yet to say that it is "nothing" misses the mark, I believe, because it is described as "perfect peace", as "the island", as "the refuge", as "the cool cave". I suspect that we have no idea how abrasive and dukkha is the experience of conditions, and that the experience of absence of conditions, of nibbana, is simply magnificent - a cool wind in the parching desert sun. Nibbana is the absence of all conditions, but also lies *beyond* the limitation of any conditions. It seems to me that it is the actuality of no conditions but the potentiality of all conditions, and, being described in noetic terms such as those I quoted above makes it more akin to a knowing, a nama, than to a dead nothingness. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > TG > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14077 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Dear Robert, Goglerr, and All, Robert, while looking up the meaning of the word sukkhavipassaka, I came across this definition, which speaks of 'complete control of the mind with true knowledge' by the samathayanika, and calls it the superior way. http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/vipassana.html Do you think this definition can be quite right? It does seem a little at odds with 'no control', as well as what you have both been saying, about it being in some ways a matter of emphasis...... though I think the adjectives in your list of the requisites for samatha sound difficult - careful sila, profound wisdom and renunciation. 'careful' I could manage - 'profound' might eventuate one day..... As Goggy says ------>"We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe any paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some `tranquilizers' I really appreciate the time you took to reply and will reflect some more on your post. But I'm not sure about the 'tranquilizers' - after my experience with metta, I'm worried I'd like samatha too much....... but, perhaps that could be guarded against? Your mention of 'right effort' was timely - I still tend to want to 'do' something to 'make' things happen, and once again I need to remind myself that Right Effort doesn't involve struggle at all. When I see things as they are, I can work with them, gently and without any kind of force whatsoever. Right Mindfulness - being mindful of the way I talk, the way I perform my job, my posture, my attitude toward my friends, colleagues and family. --------->Gog:"And it is true, we need or seek a good spiritual friend (s) to guide us on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher - and I humbly say, this is compulsory." --------->Chris: I agree, and have found people I regard as such on this List. I do look enviously, however, at my Christian friends, as they go to Church, have other face to face Discussion groups and even organised social contacts with people of their faith - all of this in one week..... But, this discussion has given me some ideas on how I may be able to feel more supported in a face to face manner. My first teacher Patrick spoke of actually practising Samatha-Vipasanna (one word) meditation. My understanding at the time was so limited that I thought I saw only Samatha. Perhaps a re-look at what that group or similar groups is doing may be beneficial. metta, Christine --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Chris., > These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive of > the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and > profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts > say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of > mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to > or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the > teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. > I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. > robert --- "goglerr" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Ch:May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under several > different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I often > read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - > everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not > just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and > understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular > path of practice. > > What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal > sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, > absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? > _____________________________________________ > G: Chris, let's go straight to your point. The Buddha mentioned > in > The Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), "This is the one–way path for > the > purication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, > for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of > the method (Path), for the realiazation of Nibbana, namely the 4 > foundation of Mindfulness". When the word `bhikkhu' > (monk) is > mentioned, it also include nun and lay folks. Many other parts of the > Canon, "Bhikkhus, these four foudations of mindfulness, when > developed and cultivated, are noble and emancipating; they lead the > one acts upon them to complete dectruction of suffering". Of > course, > they are also based upon the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 fold Path. We > have to get our sequence right. First, to realize the cessation of > dukkha, Nibbana, is to arouse mindfulness (which later penatrative > wisdom will develop) is the priority. > > Next, how to arouse the mindfulness? By the contemplation/observation > of the 4 foundation of mindfulness contemplation the body as body, > feeling as feeling, mind as mind and mind-objects as mind-objects. > > In what way or how should we contemplate them? The Buddha > continued `....(we should be) ardent (very diligent), fully > aware, > and mindful, having put away coveteouesness and grieft for the > world.' In means that we have to put forth our mental effort (not > lazy or care-less), with clarity of mind and able to `let go' > the > sensual desire and ill-will. This is not a question of in-control or > non-control or clinging to the idea of progress or even self. Rather, > the mechanics of paticcasamupada takes effect, simply, if this > arise/occur, that will arise/occur; if we put in the right effort, we > will arouse the right mindfulness, and the right mindfulness will > snow-ball to right liberation. > > Then, what must we do? Then the Buddha carry on to explain "Here > a > bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an empty > hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, > and establish mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes > in and mindful he breathe out..." Nowadays, we have meditation > monasteries spread all over the world, which caters for anybody, may > it be monks or ordinary lay folks who are interested in meditation. > Then, the method to sit, that is called the lotus posture. This is > what we mean by `formal sitting'. It may not be that > comfortable for > many a westeners, but for easterners it's very natural for them. > Other ways we can use a bench or a chair. How about formal walking or > even other postures? The Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, when > walking, > a bhikkhu undertsands: `I am walking'; when standing. he > understand: `I am standing'; when sitting, he understand > `I am > sitting'; when lying down, he understand `I am lying > down'; or he > understands acordingly however his body is disposed. The Buddha also > mentioned 5 benefits of walking meditation inother sutta. 1) good > stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) > strenghten the mental effort for overall practice 3) balacing between > sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) > builds durable concentration. Many disciples of the Buddha in the > Canon, they do walking meditation. Hmm....let's see. Sona Thera, > he > was to doing walking meditation vigorously until the Buddha > intsructed him to balance his mind. Elder Ananda was doing walking > meditation just before he attained full enlightenment. > > There are some people who say something like these `just be aware > of > our seeing, smelling, hearing , tasting , touching, and thinking or > whatever we are doing.', as in whatever we are doing in our daily > life. Well, they not wrong too. And the Buddha said `Again, > bhikkhus, > a bhikkhu is one who acts in full awareness when going forward and > returning, who acts in full awareness in looking ahead and looking > away, who acts in full awareness when extending or bending his arms, > who acts in full awareness when wearing his robes and carring his > outer robes and bowls (nowadays it means our clothing and attire), > who acts in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, and > tasting; who acts in full awareness when defecating and urinating; > who acts in full awareness when walking, standing, sitting, falling > asleep, waking up, talking, or keeping silent.' Is it not that > easy > though, to keep the mind focus on the activities, more often than not > the mind wander off (unmindfully) to all sort of things. > > A good sense of basic morality and discpline through bodily, speech > and mind, are essential too. The Buddha laid down the 5 precepts as > the basic code of human conduct, not just as for the condusive for > social harmony but also acts as a foundation for mental cultivation. > Transgresing the basic code, will somehow eats into our conscience, > where remorse and regret will surface (someday, sometime!), shake and > waver the stability of the mind, and ultimately the mental hindrances > will have the upper hand, thus making the mental development > difficult. > > A journey into a thick dense forest, we need a knowledgeble guide. > The guide, he himself has gone through it all. He knew the traps, the > pit falls, the raging rivers, and with compassion, he instructs us to > avoid them, and walk that ancient path where elders of the old had > trodden. > `At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Saripautta apprached the Blessed > One...and said to him: > "Venerable sir, this is the entire holy life, that is, good > friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship." > "Good! Good! Sariputta! This is the entire holy life, Sariputta, > that > is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship. When a > bhikkhu has a good friend, good companion, a good comrade, it is to > expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold > Path."' (SN 45:3) > And it is true, we need or seek a good spritual friend(s) to guide us > on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times, > the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to > rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher – and I humbly say, this > is > compulsary. > > So as u see from here, not to say formal sitting or walking are > compulsory but they are very effective to develop mindfulness. But > mindfulness is one of the compulsary `ingredients' for > Nibbana. > _______________________________________________________ > Ch: Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my > defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to > read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at > http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. > In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being > the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), > Nyanaponika Thera says: > (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human > consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of > each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of > effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary > subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and > insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the > mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. It > comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime > meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such > quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, > and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the > capacity of leading to effacement." > Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are > essential, not Samatha? > _________________________________________________ > G: When the Bodhisatta searching for the enlightenment during his 6 > wandering years, he met two ascetics by the name of Alara Kalama and > Uddaka Ramaputta. The former attained the 7th stage of Jhana and the > latter attained highest, the 8th stage. But both of them was not > enlightened. Why? They don't have Insights. > We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > any > paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > `tranquilizers'. > But then it only a mean to the end, and not the end itself. After > attaining some degree of concentration, we have to `switch' > object, > from a conceptual object to a paramattha object which is the 5 > Aggregates, that where's Vipassana comes into play. Samatha and > Vipassana complementing each other in many ways. > ________________________________________________________ > Ch:My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - > but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the > defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent task > in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this > eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I > have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of us, > and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that > doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of > this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of > controlling progress? > ______________________________________________ > G: The Buddha said `All worldlings are mad'. Worldlings means > those > who have not attain any stages of santity. We are still bounded by > the cords of sensual desire, lust, anger, hatred, vengence, jealousy, > pride, ego, `I', views, etc. Aren't we `mad'? The > Buddha also said `I > only teach dukkha and the end of dukkha'. The end of the day, we > should seek the `End', the eradication of all defilement and > the end > of samsara. But then....each one of us have a different pace due so > many seen and unseen factors, may it be our parami, sense of urgency, > way of life, tendencies, personality, defilement, kamma, understading > etc. It all depend on us, and no, not the idea of controlling or > whatever, it just a matter of `if you do it, you will get > it'. > __________________________________________________ > I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on > such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is > what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to practice........ > > metta, > Christine > ________________________________________________ > That's all for now, Chris----byee > > Goglerr 14078 From: shiau_in_lin Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 5:21pm Subject: Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Jonathon, Actually I have been coming and going out of Switzerland for almost more than 9 months already. Each time that I am here, I tried to carry all the scriptures so I can have a set here in Switzerland for reference when I need them. Yes, I am very fortunate to be able to read Thai so I could reference alot from other commentaries which is like an intepretor to scriptures for example the Tika,Attasalni,Visuddhimagga,VisuddhimaggaTika and The GUIDE ( in Thai). Actually I have switched from reading the English Tipitaka to the Thai since last year. I found great detail of information which has been explained for in one verse or sentence in the Thai one comparing with the English one. I have gained alot from reading and referencing the commentaries, in which, most of my questions were answered in the scriptures. It is like a road map in my mind and then I contemplate it daily in my life. BUT there are still limitations in the Thai translation. If I have the opportunity, I am going to study Pali so I can understand the Attha or meaning directly from Pali without any language obstacles. Dear Sukin, Thankyou for being a friend. The past which I've said is only said with extreme limitations of informations about the teaching of the Buddha. Pls kindly eliminate or forgive me for what I have suggested to you in the past. Recently I have realized that it is not mana, if I am trying to understand or contemplating the Vissudhimagga. BECAUSE :- reading or trying to understand the Teaching of the Buddha is a subject of purification of the mind. And at the moment of trying, is viriya with kusula citta. If only we can really understand what is kusula and akusula then we can understand the characteristic of all dhamma and its functions. And we can't go wrong about akusula or kusula because it is said clearly in the scriptures with all the phenonema. All Akusula is leading Khanda to samsara. All Kusula is detaching or lessening the Khanda from samsara, whether it is with panna or not. I can't really explain much to you, because it really requires oneself to read the Scriptures and understand it themself. I never will regret what I have done this time, in just totally be dependent on the teaching of the Buddha, by just simply reading the scripture carefully and following it. Depending on someone else's understanding is just dangerous and not direct. In actuality, the Dhamma belongs to the Buddha so I will just follow the Buddha by reading the scriptures, instead of some else's explanation. As I have mentioned again, the scriptures has all the answers to your questions or doubts and commentaries explained everything. There is no easy way. The most precious thing requires effort and determination and sammadhitti. Kalayamitta, Shin 14079 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 6:07pm Subject: Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation . Dear Chris., The defn. says: "There are two orders of arhats, the sukkhavipassaka and the samathayanika. The sukkhavipassaka is so called because he attains enlightenment by contemplating the dry facts of physical and moral phenomena until his passions dry up. The samathayanika, on the other hand, by complete control of his mind with true knowledge, is superior." This is a little oversimplified. The samathayanika is very definitely considered superior to the sukkhavipassaka- they may have powers, mastery of jhana etc. etc. What the netti says though is that only the ones with superior faculties are able to follow this path. What I meant by emphasis is that even the sukkhavipassaka has some of the attributes of one who develops samatha, in that tranquility of mind comes about through contemplation of nama and rupa too. And renunciation is needed for vipassana and so on. best wishes robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, Goglerr, and All, > > Robert, while looking up the meaning of the word sukkhavipassaka, I > came across this definition, which speaks of 'complete control of the > mind with true knowledge' by the samathayanika, and calls it the > superior way. > http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/vipassana.html > Do you think this definition can be quite right? It does seem a > little at odds with 'no control', as well as what you have both been > saying, about it being in some ways a matter of emphasis...... though > I think the adjectives in your list of the requisites for samatha > sound difficult - careful sila, profound wisdom and > renunciation. 'careful' I could manage - 'profound' might eventuate > one day..... > > As Goggy says ------>"We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right > liberation. Samatha > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > any paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > `tranquilizers' I really appreciate the time you took to reply and > will reflect some more on your post. But I'm not sure about > the 'tranquilizers' - after my experience with metta, I'm worried I'd > like samatha too much....... but, perhaps that could be guarded > against? > > Your mention of 'right effort' was timely - I still tend to want > to 'do' something to 'make' things happen, and once again I need to > remind myself that Right Effort doesn't involve struggle at all. > When I see things as they are, I can work with them, gently and > without any kind of force whatsoever. Right Mindfulness - being > mindful of the way I talk, the way I perform my job, my posture, my > attitude toward my friends, colleagues and family. > > --------->Gog:"And it is true, we need or seek a good spiritual friend > (s) to guide us on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for > Nibbana. At times the books may not help us that much. As in > meditation, we need to rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher - and > I humbly say, this is compulsory." > --------->Chris: I agree, and have found people I regard as such on > this List. I do look enviously, however, at my Christian friends, > as they go to Church, have other face to face Discussion groups and > even organised social contacts with people of their faith - all of > this in one week..... But, this discussion has given > me some ideas on how I may be able to feel more supported in a face > to face manner. My first teacher Patrick spoke of actually > practising Samatha-Vipasanna (one word) meditation. My understanding > at the time was so limited that I thought I saw only Samatha. Perhaps > a re-look at what that group or similar groups is doing may be > beneficial. > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear Chris., > > These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive > of > > the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and > > profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts > > say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of > > mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to > > or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the > > teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. > > I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. > > robert > > --- "goglerr" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Ch:May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under > several > > different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I > often > > read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - > > everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not > > just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and > > understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular > > path of practice. > > > > What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal > > sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, > > absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? > > _____________________________________________ > > G: Chris, let's go straight to your point. The Buddha mentioned > > in > > The Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), "This is the one–way path for > > the > > purication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, > > for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement > of > > the method (Path), for the realiazation of Nibbana, namely the 4 > > foundation of Mindfulness". When the word `bhikkhu' > > (monk) is > > mentioned, it also include nun and lay folks. Many other parts of > the > > Canon, "Bhikkhus, these four foudations of mindfulness, when > > developed and cultivated, are noble and emancipating; they lead the > > one acts upon them to complete dectruction of suffering". Of > > course, > > they are also based upon the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 fold Path. > We > > have to get our sequence right. First, to realize the cessation of > > dukkha, Nibbana, is to arouse mindfulness (which later penatrative > > wisdom will develop) is the priority. > > > > Next, how to arouse the mindfulness? By the > contemplation/observation > > of the 4 foundation of mindfulness contemplation the body as body, > > feeling as feeling, mind as mind and mind-objects as mind- objects. > > > > In what way or how should we contemplate them? The Buddha > > continued `....(we should be) ardent (very diligent), fully > > aware, > > and mindful, having put away coveteouesness and grieft for the > > world.' In means that we have to put forth our mental effort (not > > lazy or care-less), with clarity of mind and able to `let go' > > the > > sensual desire and ill-will. This is not a question of in- control > or > > non-control or clinging to the idea of progress or even self. > Rather, > > the mechanics of paticcasamupada takes effect, simply, if this > > arise/occur, that will arise/occur; if we put in the right effort, > we > > will arouse the right mindfulness, and the right mindfulness will > > snow-ball to right liberation. > > > > Then, what must we do? Then the Buddha carry on to explain "Here > > a > > bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an > empty > > hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body > erect, > > and establish mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes > > in and mindful he breathe out..." Nowadays, we have meditation > > monasteries spread all over the world, which caters for anybody, > may > > it be monks or ordinary lay folks who are interested in meditation. > > Then, the method to sit, that is called the lotus posture. This is > > what we mean by `formal sitting'. It may not be that > > comfortable for > > many a westeners, but for easterners it's very natural for them. > > Other ways we can use a bench or a chair. How about formal walking > or > > even other postures? The Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, when > > walking, > > a bhikkhu undertsands: `I am walking'; when standing. he > > understand: `I am standing'; when sitting, he understand > > `I am > > sitting'; when lying down, he understand `I am lying > > down'; or he > > understands acordingly however his body is disposed. The Buddha > also > > mentioned 5 benefits of walking meditation inother sutta. 1) good > > stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) > > strenghten the mental effort for overall practice 3) balacing > between > > sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) > > builds durable concentration. Many disciples of the Buddha in the > > Canon, they do walking meditation. Hmm....let's see. Sona Thera, > > he > > was to doing walking meditation vigorously until the Buddha > > intsructed him to balance his mind. Elder Ananda was doing walking > > meditation just before he attained full enlightenment. > > > > There are some people who say something like these `just be aware > > of > > our seeing, smelling, hearing , tasting , touching, and thinking or > > whatever we are doing.', as in whatever we are doing in our daily > > life. Well, they not wrong too. And the Buddha said `Again, > > bhikkhus, > > a bhikkhu is one who acts in full awareness when going forward and > > returning, who acts in full awareness in looking ahead and looking > > away, who acts in full awareness when extending or bending his > arms, > > who acts in full awareness when wearing his robes and carring his > > outer robes and bowls (nowadays it means our clothing and attire), > > who acts in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, > and > > tasting; who acts in full awareness when defecating and urinating; > > who acts in full awareness when walking, standing, sitting, > falling > > asleep, waking up, talking, or keeping silent.' Is it not that > > easy > > though, to keep the mind focus on the activities, more often than > not > > the mind wander off (unmindfully) to all sort of things. > > > > A good sense of basic morality and discpline through bodily, speech > > and mind, are essential too. The Buddha laid down the 5 precepts as > > the basic code of human conduct, not just as for the condusive for > > social harmony but also acts as a foundation for mental > cultivation. > > Transgresing the basic code, will somehow eats into our conscience, > > where remorse and regret will surface (someday, sometime!), shake > and > > waver the stability of the mind, and ultimately the mental > hindrances > > will have the upper hand, thus making the mental development > > difficult. > > > > A journey into a thick dense forest, we need a knowledgeble guide. > > The guide, he himself has gone through it all. He knew the traps, > the > > pit falls, the raging rivers, and with compassion, he instructs us > to > > avoid them, and walk that ancient path where elders of the old had > > trodden. > > `At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Saripautta apprached the Blessed > > One...and said to him: > > "Venerable sir, this is the entire holy life, that is, good > > friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship." > > "Good! Good! Sariputta! This is the entire holy life, Sariputta, > > that > > is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship. When a > > bhikkhu has a good friend, good companion, a good comrade, it is to > > expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold > > Path."' (SN 45:3) > > And it is true, we need or seek a good spritual friend(s) to guide > us > > on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times, > > the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to > > rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher – and I humbly say, > this > > is > > compulsary. > > > > So as u see from here, not to say formal sitting or walking are > > compulsory but they are very effective to develop mindfulness. But > > mindfulness is one of the compulsary `ingredients' for > > Nibbana. > > _______________________________________________________ > > Ch: Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my > > defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to > > read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at > > http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. > > In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being > > the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), > > Nyanaponika Thera says: > > (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human > > consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of > > each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of > > effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary > > subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and > > insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the > > mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. > It > > comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime > > meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such > > quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, > > and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the > > capacity of leading to effacement." > > Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are > > essential, not Samatha? > > _________________________________________________ > > G: When the Bodhisatta searching for the enlightenment during his 6 > > wandering years, he met two ascetics by the name of Alara Kalama > and > > Uddaka Ramaputta. The former attained the 7th stage of Jhana and > the > > latter attained highest, the 8th stage. But both of them was not > > enlightened. Why? They don't have Insights. > > We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha > > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative > to > > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > > any > > paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > > `tranquilizers'. > > But then it only a mean to the end, and not the end itself. After > > attaining some degree of concentration, we have to `switch' > > object, > > from a conceptual object to a paramattha object which is the 5 > > Aggregates, that where's Vipassana comes into play. Samatha and > > Vipassana complementing each other in many ways. > > ________________________________________________________ > > Ch:My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - > > but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the > > defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent > task > > in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this > > eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I > > have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of > us, > > and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that > > doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of > > this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of > > controlling progress? > > ______________________________________________ > > G: The Buddha said `All worldlings are mad'. Worldlings means > > those > > who have not attain any stages of santity. We are still bounded by > > the cords of sensual desire, lust, anger, hatred, vengence, > jealousy, > > pride, ego, `I', views, etc. Aren't we `mad'? The > > Buddha also said `I > > only teach dukkha and the end of dukkha'. The end of the day, we > > should seek the `End', the eradication of all defilement and > > the end > > of samsara. But then....each one of us have a different pace due so > > many seen and unseen factors, may it be our parami, sense of > urgency, > > way of life, tendencies, personality, defilement, kamma, > understading > > etc. It all depend on us, and no, not the idea of controlling or > > whatever, it just a matter of `if you do it, you will get > > it'. > > __________________________________________________ > > I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on > > such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is > > what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to > practice........ > > > > metta, > > Christine > > ________________________________________________ > > That's all for now, Chris----byee > > > > Goglerr 14080 From: manji Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 8:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Sukkhavipasska? How does the word break down? Also, what is this word that is being translated into "control", and what is its etymology? -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:06 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation > > Dear Robert, Goglerr, and All, > > Robert, while looking up the meaning of the word sukkhavipassaka, I > came across this definition, which speaks of 'complete control of the > mind with true knowledge' by the samathayanika, and calls it the > superior way. > http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/vipassana.html > Do you think this definition can be quite right? It does seem a > little at odds with 'no control', as well as what you have both been > saying, about it being in some ways a matter of emphasis...... though > I think the adjectives in your list of the requisites for samatha > sound difficult - careful sila, profound wisdom and > renunciation. 'careful' I could manage - 'profound' might eventuate > one day..... > > As Goggy says ------>"We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right > liberation. Samatha > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > any paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > `tranquilizers' I really appreciate the time you took to reply and > will reflect some more on your post. But I'm not sure about > the 'tranquilizers' - after my experience with metta, I'm worried I'd > like samatha too much....... but, perhaps that could be guarded > against? > > Your mention of 'right effort' was timely - I still tend to want > to 'do' something to 'make' things happen, and once again I need to > remind myself that Right Effort doesn't involve struggle at all. > When I see things as they are, I can work with them, gently and > without any kind of force whatsoever. Right Mindfulness - being > mindful of the way I talk, the way I perform my job, my posture, my > attitude toward my friends, colleagues and family. > > --------->Gog:"And it is true, we need or seek a good spiritual friend > (s) to guide us on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for > Nibbana. At times the books may not help us that much. As in > meditation, we need to rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher - and > I humbly say, this is compulsory." > --------->Chris: I agree, and have found people I regard as such on > this List. I do look enviously, however, at my Christian friends, > as they go to Church, have other face to face Discussion groups and > even organised social contacts with people of their faith - all of > this in one week..... But, this discussion has given > me some ideas on how I may be able to feel more supported in a face > to face manner. My first teacher Patrick spoke of actually > practising Samatha-Vipasanna (one word) meditation. My understanding > at the time was so limited that I thought I saw only Samatha. Perhaps > a re-look at what that group or similar groups is doing may be > beneficial. > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear Chris., > > These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive > of > > the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and > > profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts > > say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of > > mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to > > or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the > > teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. > > I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. > > robert > > --- "goglerr" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Ch:May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under > several > > different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I > often > > read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - > > everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not > > just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and > > understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular > > path of practice. > > > > What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal > > sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, > > absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? > > _____________________________________________ > > G: Chris, let's go straight to your point. The Buddha mentioned > > in > > The Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), "This is the one-way path for > > the > > purication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, > > for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement > of > > the method (Path), for the realiazation of Nibbana, namely the 4 > > foundation of Mindfulness". When the word `bhikkhu' > > (monk) is > > mentioned, it also include nun and lay folks. Many other parts of > the > > Canon, "Bhikkhus, these four foudations of mindfulness, when > > developed and cultivated, are noble and emancipating; they lead the > > one acts upon them to complete dectruction of suffering". Of > > course, > > they are also based upon the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 fold Path. > We > > have to get our sequence right. First, to realize the cessation of > > dukkha, Nibbana, is to arouse mindfulness (which later penatrative > > wisdom will develop) is the priority. > > > > Next, how to arouse the mindfulness? By the > contemplation/observation > > of the 4 foundation of mindfulness contemplation the body as body, > > feeling as feeling, mind as mind and mind-objects as mind-objects. > > > > In what way or how should we contemplate them? The Buddha > > continued `....(we should be) ardent (very diligent), fully > > aware, > > and mindful, having put away coveteouesness and grieft for the > > world.' In means that we have to put forth our mental effort (not > > lazy or care-less), with clarity of mind and able to `let go' > > the > > sensual desire and ill-will. This is not a question of in-control > or > > non-control or clinging to the idea of progress or even self. > Rather, > > the mechanics of paticcasamupada takes effect, simply, if this > > arise/occur, that will arise/occur; if we put in the right effort, > we > > will arouse the right mindfulness, and the right mindfulness will > > snow-ball to right liberation. > > > > Then, what must we do? Then the Buddha carry on to explain "Here > > a > > bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an > empty > > hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body > erect, > > and establish mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes > > in and mindful he breathe out..." Nowadays, we have meditation > > monasteries spread all over the world, which caters for anybody, > may > > it be monks or ordinary lay folks who are interested in meditation. > > Then, the method to sit, that is called the lotus posture. This is > > what we mean by `formal sitting'. It may not be that > > comfortable for > > many a westeners, but for easterners it's very natural for them. > > Other ways we can use a bench or a chair. How about formal walking > or > > even other postures? The Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, when > > walking, > > a bhikkhu undertsands: `I am walking'; when standing. he > > understand: `I am standing'; when sitting, he understand > > `I am > > sitting'; when lying down, he understand `I am lying > > down'; or he > > understands acordingly however his body is disposed. The Buddha > also > > mentioned 5 benefits of walking meditation inother sutta. 1) good > > stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) > > strenghten the mental effort for overall practice 3) balacing > between > > sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) > > builds durable concentration. Many disciples of the Buddha in the > > Canon, they do walking meditation. Hmm....let's see. Sona Thera, > > he > > was to doing walking meditation vigorously until the Buddha > > intsructed him to balance his mind. Elder Ananda was doing walking > > meditation just before he attained full enlightenment. > > > > There are some people who say something like these `just be aware > > of > > our seeing, smelling, hearing , tasting , touching, and thinking or > > whatever we are doing.', as in whatever we are doing in our daily > > life. Well, they not wrong too. And the Buddha said `Again, > > bhikkhus, > > a bhikkhu is one who acts in full awareness when going forward and > > returning, who acts in full awareness in looking ahead and looking > > away, who acts in full awareness when extending or bending his > arms, > > who acts in full awareness when wearing his robes and carring his > > outer robes and bowls (nowadays it means our clothing and attire), > > who acts in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, > and > > tasting; who acts in full awareness when defecating and urinating; > > who acts in full awareness when walking, standing, sitting, > falling > > asleep, waking up, talking, or keeping silent.' Is it not that > > easy > > though, to keep the mind focus on the activities, more often than > not > > the mind wander off (unmindfully) to all sort of things. > > > > A good sense of basic morality and discpline through bodily, speech > > and mind, are essential too. The Buddha laid down the 5 precepts as > > the basic code of human conduct, not just as for the condusive for > > social harmony but also acts as a foundation for mental > cultivation. > > Transgresing the basic code, will somehow eats into our conscience, > > where remorse and regret will surface (someday, sometime!), shake > and > > waver the stability of the mind, and ultimately the mental > hindrances > > will have the upper hand, thus making the mental development > > difficult. > > > > A journey into a thick dense forest, we need a knowledgeble guide. > > The guide, he himself has gone through it all. He knew the traps, > the > > pit falls, the raging rivers, and with compassion, he instructs us > to > > avoid them, and walk that ancient path where elders of the old had > > trodden. > > `At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Saripautta apprached the Blessed > > One...and said to him: > > "Venerable sir, this is the entire holy life, that is, good > > friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship." > > "Good! Good! Sariputta! This is the entire holy life, Sariputta, > > that > > is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship. When a > > bhikkhu has a good friend, good companion, a good comrade, it is to > > expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold > > Path."' (SN 45:3) > > And it is true, we need or seek a good spritual friend(s) to guide > us > > on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times, > > the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to > > rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher - and I humbly say, > this > > is > > compulsary. > > > > So as u see from here, not to say formal sitting or walking are > > compulsory but they are very effective to develop mindfulness. But > > mindfulness is one of the compulsary `ingredients' for > > Nibbana. > > _______________________________________________________ > > Ch: Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my > > defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to > > read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at > > http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. > > In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being > > the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), > > Nyanaponika Thera says: > > (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human > > consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of > > each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of > > effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary > > subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and > > insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the > > mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. > It > > comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime > > meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such > > quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, > > and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the > > capacity of leading to effacement." > > Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are > > essential, not Samatha? > > _________________________________________________ > > G: When the Bodhisatta searching for the enlightenment during his 6 > > wandering years, he met two ascetics by the name of Alara Kalama > and > > Uddaka Ramaputta. The former attained the 7th stage of Jhana and > the > > latter attained highest, the 8th stage. But both of them was not > > enlightened. Why? They don't have Insights. > > We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha > > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative > to > > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > > any > > paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > > `tranquilizers'. > > But then it only a mean to the end, and not the end itself. After > > attaining some degree of concentration, we have to `switch' > > object, > > from a conceptual object to a paramattha object which is the 5 > > Aggregates, that where's Vipassana comes into play. Samatha and > > Vipassana complementing each other in many ways. > > ________________________________________________________ > > Ch:My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - > > but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the > > defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent > task > > in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this > > eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I > > have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of > us, > > and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that > > doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of > > this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of > > controlling progress? > > ______________________________________________ > > G: The Buddha said `All worldlings are mad'. Worldlings means > > those > > who have not attain any stages of santity. We are still bounded by > > the cords of sensual desire, lust, anger, hatred, vengence, > jealousy, > > pride, ego, `I', views, etc. Aren't we `mad'? The > > Buddha also said `I > > only teach dukkha and the end of dukkha'. The end of the day, we > > should seek the `End', the eradication of all defilement and > > the end > > of samsara. But then....each one of us have a different pace due so > > many seen and unseen factors, may it be our parami, sense of > urgency, > > way of life, tendencies, personality, defilement, kamma, > understading > > etc. It all depend on us, and no, not the idea of controlling or > > whatever, it just a matter of `if you do it, you will get > > it'. > > __________________________________________________ > > I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on > > such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is > > what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to > practice........ > > > > metta, > > Christine > > ________________________________________________ > > That's all for now, Chris----byee > > > > Goglerr 14081 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 9:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation --- Dear manji, Sukkha has a few meanings. The most common of which is happiness. In this case though it means dry; and sukkhavipassaka is 'dry-insight worker' because his insight is without the soft moisture of the mundane jhanas. The word control is probably being used by the writer because those who have mastery of jhana have so many powers - they can walk on water, read minds, go to the deva worlds: it is control in the conventional sense. robert "manji" wrote: > Sukkhavipasska? How does the word break down? Also, what is this word > that is being translated into "control", and what is its etymology? > > -manji- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth > > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:06 AM > > Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation > > > > Dear Robert, Goglerr, and All, > > > > Robert, while looking up the meaning of the word sukkhavipassaka, I > > came across this definition, which speaks of 'complete control of the > > mind with true knowledge' by the samathayanika, and calls it the > > superior way. > > http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/vipassana.html > > Do you think this definition can be quite right? It does seem a > > little at odds with 'no control', as well as what you have both been > > saying, about it being in some ways a matter of emphasis...... though > > I think the adjectives in your list of the requisites for samatha > > sound difficult - careful sila, profound wisdom and > > renunciation. 'careful' I could manage - 'profound' might eventuate > > one day..... > 14082 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Howard, Goglerr, Chistine and all, Howard, I am butting in again (I hope you will often do the same, and everybody, butting in is good.) Thank you for the three suttas, and I looked up my Thai co. I like to say something about them, but if possible could you paste them, or someone else?.I seldom go on line, problems with father, his sick dog (the vet today), father fallling out of bed sometimes at night. etc. Besides, my translation work. Now about formal meditation. I have no experience with this. I read in the Co , in Pali now, after the eating of congee (yagu, hmm), about monks who walked, who took the kammathana and brought it back ((harati, paccaaharati). When there was a distraction they would stand still, to restrain defilements while standing, or another one would turn back and go again, and do this for nineteen years, until he attained arahatship. I asked A. Sujin why he acted like this, and A. Sujin answered, because it was his accumulation. I also read about bhikkhus counting while breathing in and out, and when I asked why they acted like this, A. Sujin answered, because it was their accumulation. They could not have become arahats if they had not developed all the stages of insight knowledge, beginning with discerning the difference between nama and rupa. Thus, the question is: what does panna know, is there any understanding of this moment now? At this time there are no longer arahats in this world according to the Commentaries. Should we copy those highly gifted monks who were destined for arahatship? How is life in a center, does nobody talk? In some centers it is forbidden to read and study. Are you dressed in white, do you take meals together? Are there also people you do not sympathize with? You speak about focussing attention on the feet and then turning around noticing the wandering mind, but, I think, distraction is bound to happen all the time, does it not? Then, is distraction not a reality to be understood as only a conditioned nama? Instead of focussing on it, there could be more understanding of it, or is this what you mean? And what is *understood* while walking, which rupas appear? Hardness, or heat or oscillation? Or the bodyconsciousness that experiences them? Or the trying to concentrate, is there desire to concentrate? Lobha is very natural, we have accumulated it and it will always find an object, even while meditating. What feelings appear, bodily feeling or mental feeling? Is there no tiredness, and aversion about it? I believe we should always check for ourselves: how is understanding now, not only at the center, but now in daily life. Is there somewhat more understanding, is it growing? Is there no sound while walking? Is sound over there different from sound over here? Is seeing over there different from seeing here? I believe that panna should be stressed, not mere concentration. Also when developing meditation subjects such as the kasinas. See A. Sujin's chapter in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas on Samatha, panna should be very precise and refined. As regards the brahma viharas, Dan explained the near enemies so well, they should be discerned. The brahmaviharas should be developed in daily life when there are people around. When we are alone it is easy to have noble thoughts, but what when people are unpleasant? Your ill-mannered or lazy students? The Bodhisatta would jump at such occasions: how can patience be developed if there are no unpleasant people? Otherwise, there is no way to train. So many meditation subjects can be developed now, such as the Recollection of the Triple Gem, metta, karuna. I agree that awareness of nama and rupa alone is not sufficient. We are weak, and need all the medicines of the perfections. These include all good qualities that should be developed along with panna. I understand Christine: she is looking for means to disarm defilements. Only panna can do it, not we. Even the temporary subduing of them in Samatha cannot be achieved without panna. But how difficult to know very precisely when the citta is kusala and when there is a subtle desire for a result, we have to think of the near enemies. Let me quote now part of A. Sujin's chapter on renunciation from her book about the Perfections: The lack of sati in daily life and the amount of defilements they notice may induce people to go to centers, I believe. When we have accumulated sati of satipatthana, although not much, it can support sati of other levels of kusala. We may become more sensitive to occasions where patience, karuna, respect to the Triple Gem can be developed and this in daily life. Is a center needed for this? But anyway, everybody will follow his accumulated inclinations. We know the value of patience, but often we may not realize: here is only an insignificant matter where we could develop patience, a good opportunity to cultivate it. When we do something in the kitchen, or any chore there are opportunities. How otherwise will we be patient enough for the endlessly long practice of the eightfold Path, cira kala bhavana. With appreciation, Nina. op 29-06-2002 13:45 schreef Howard op Howard: > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is primarily the taking of this sutta as part of the whole body of > scripture that permits the interpretration of both formal and informal > meditation as being included, though the very first section on mindfulness of > breath does, indeed, suggest standard sitting meditation. Other parts of the > section on mindfulness of the body are more noncommittal, suggesting to me > both formal and informal walking and standing meditation, but definitely not > being explicit. Sometimes the distinction between formal and informal blurs > anyway. For example, when walking, one may, as a result of purposeful intent, > note that one is about to turn, and that one does then turn. This can be > "informal". It does provide a level of understanding. On the other hand, in a > "formal" session of walking meditation, in which one is repeatedly and > slowly walking back and forth along a 20-30 pace path, constantly and > carefully noting with focus the foot placements and changes, the associated > sensations, the intentions to turn, the turning, and the wandering of one's > attention, concentration and mindfulness tend to become quite heightened, > one's "state" changes, one's attention becomes quite microscopic, and clarity > is enhanced. Inasmuch as the formal practice of, especially sitting and > walking, meditation has been a part of the tradition in all schools for a > couple thousand years, and inasmuch as all schools revere the satipatthana > sutta and anapanasat sutta and relate their practice to them, I find it > reasonable to infer that these suttas do not exclude formal meditation > practice. 14083 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 11:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] shinto Dear Howard Me again. You wrote: "The DSG, due largely to the wonderful stewardship of Sarah and Jon, is a marvelous refuge of harmony and tolerance." I totally agree with what you wrote above. Sarah and Jon are skilful Captains of DSG who could lead with gentleness and wisdom. I also believe that you and Robert Kirkpatrick, too, have learnt from Sarah and Jon how to manage a large discussion group with diverse views and manners, and are succeffully able to have brought the group to a working harmonious order. With kind regards, Suan --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Suan - > > You make good and important points. I have no doubt that, on average, > there is more amiability among Buddhists of all schools than is to be found > elsewhere. My post grew out of experiences on another Buddhist list, and it > expresses a bit of dismay that cordiality and tolerance, as good as they are > among Buddhists, aren't even better. The DSG, due largely to the wonderful > stewardship of Sarah and Jon, is a marvelous refuge of harmony and tolerance. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 6/29/02 11:29:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Dear Howard > > > > How are you? > > > > You wrote: > > > > "Imagine what it might be like if Buddhists of varying stripes, even > > different schools with Theravadin Buddhism, could differ in views and > > practice but remain good and humble friends! (Of course, I guess it > > is common that some of the most emotional fights are "family > > fights".)" > > > > I do not think we have to imagine it. We can observe all along the > > peace and harmony between followers of different Buddhist traditions. > > Have you ever heard of Buddhist countries going to war due to > > different views? > > > > You could witness how Theravada Buddhist countries in South East Asia > > have close ties with Mahayana Buddhist countries in East Asia, for > > example. Within Theravada Buddhist countries, there are also Mahayana > > Buddhist communities. I had live in such a Theravada Buddhist > > country, and I have never heard of any conflict between the citizens > > due to different Buddhist backgrounds. > > > > Myanmar is famous for its pure Theravada tradition, yet Tibetans also > > live as indigenous people in Northern Mountainous regions of Myanmar > > and follow their own tradition of Buddhism mixed with their unique > > ethnic elements. And why not? > > > > The so-called "fights" Howard mentioned are only myths and seem to be > > manufactured by Buddhist scholars in the Religious Departments who > > take pride in the so-called "Critical Studies". Whatever polemic they > > engaged are usually agaist Theravada Buddhism in general, and Pali > > Commentaries and Abhidhamma in particular. For example, Mrs Rhys > > Davids and her modern followers, neo-Rhys-Davidsites with PhDs. > > > > Why I was doing Pali at the ANU in Canberra during early 80s, a PhD > > (Buddhist Studies) student asked me what Buddhism I followed. When I > > answered "Theravada", he told me I was selfish. I didn't know how I > > could be selffish as Theravada advocates no self, as would Mahayana. > > SMILE. So I did not argue and kept the Noble Silence. > > > > There you have it, Howard. > > > > With kind regards, > > > > Suan > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ 14084 From: Howard Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Nina - Thank you for your reply. It is a quite lengthy one, and I am not sure exactly what really calls for response. I'll make an attempt. With regard to the three suttas, I think they are fairly clear and stand on their own without much need for comment. I would love to paste and post, but I only have access to them from the book that I mentioned, and my scanner is not working. Perhaps someone else can help. As far as what is experienced during formal meditation is concerned, well, this is a bit like trying to describe ice cream to those who may have tried milk but no dessert. ;-) It really needs to be directly experienced. As far as accumulations are concerned, well, it seems to me that we can make all sorts of guesses and assumptions about what might or might not be our "accumulations", but, in fact, we don't know. I do know that again and again the Buddha instructed his followers to find "roots of trees" etc and to meditate. I can attest first hand as to the difference in intensity there is of concentration, mindfulness, and ease of detailed, direct investigation between formal meditation (if pursued with regularity) and a practice of moment-to-moment mindfulness during ordinary activity. I strongly recommend both. With regard to meditation centers, attending an occasional retreat has value in that it constitutes an intensive and devoted period of formal meditation practice, shared with like minded folks, and in the context of strong support, with all necessities including meals provided, with all concerns other than the practice removed. With regard to this, you ask: ****************************************** How is life in a center, does nobody talk? In some centers it is forbidden to read and study. Are you dressed in white, do you take meals together? Are there also people you do not sympathize with? ******************************************* At the Goenka retreat I attended - 1) Except for the need to talk occasionally with teachers or administrators, and except for brief evening lectures, the retreat was conducted in silence, with the participants not interacting by word, glance, or gesture, 2) During the 10-day retreat, there was no reading or study, as the point was to devote the 10 days to intensive, direct practice, building what I can only describe as enormous meditative power, 3) We dressed as we wished, but modestly of course, 4) Nutritious vegetarian meals were taken together, in silence, and except for some fruit etc for "new" students, there was no eating past mid-day, 5) Accomodations were clean and adequate, with "low and non-luxurious beds", 6) The sexes were separated, 7) Shower facilities were private, and 8) There was insufficient interaction with others to develop sympathies or lack thereof. One more point about retreats: They are helpful from time to time, but they are *not* the cornerstone of a practice. The cornerstone is a daily, regular practice of one's own. Meditation is always available. The breath, sensations, feelings, thoughts, inclinations - all there, always available for investigation, both during "ordinary" moments, and, more clearly and powerfully, during formal practice. The joy of the Dhamma is enlivened by the sustenance obtained from regular, formal practice. The study and the practice support each other. Each is impovershed by the absence of the other. With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/30/02 10:22:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Dear Howard, Goglerr, Chistine and all, > > Howard, I am butting in again (I hope you will often do the same, and > everybody, butting in is good.) > Thank you for the three suttas, and I looked up my Thai co. I like to say > something about them, but if possible could you paste them, or someone > else?.I seldom go on line, problems with father, his sick dog (the vet > today), father fallling out of bed sometimes at night. etc. Besides, my > translation work. > Now about formal meditation. I have no experience with this. I read in the > Co , in Pali now, after the eating of congee (yagu, hmm), about monks who > walked, who took the kammathana and brought it back ((harati, > paccaaharati). > When there was a distraction they would stand still, to restrain > defilements > while standing, or another one would turn back and go again, and do this > for > nineteen years, until he attained arahatship. I asked A. Sujin why he acted > like this, and A. Sujin answered, because it was his accumulation. I also > read about bhikkhus counting while breathing in and out, and when I asked > why they acted like this, A. Sujin answered, because it was their > accumulation. They could not have become arahats if they had not developed > all the stages of insight knowledge, beginning with discerning the > difference between nama and rupa. Thus, the question is: what does panna > know, is there any understanding of this moment now? At this time there are > no longer arahats in this world according to the Commentaries. Should we > copy those highly gifted monks who were destined for arahatship? > How is life in a center, does nobody talk? In some centers it is forbidden > to read and study. Are you dressed in white, do you take meals together? > Are > there also people you do not sympathize with? > You speak about focussing attention on the feet and then turning around > noticing the wandering mind, but, I think, distraction is bound to happen > all the time, does it not? Then, is distraction not a reality to be > understood as only a conditioned nama? Instead of focussing on it, there > could be more understanding of it, or is this what you mean? And what is > *understood* while walking, which rupas appear? Hardness, or heat or > oscillation? Or the bodyconsciousness that experiences them? Or the trying > to concentrate, is there desire to concentrate? Lobha is very natural, we > have accumulated it and it will always find an object, even while > meditating. What feelings appear, bodily feeling or mental feeling? Is > there > no tiredness, and aversion about it? I believe we should always check for > ourselves: how is understanding now, not only at the center, but now in > daily life. Is there somewhat more understanding, is it growing? Is there > no > sound while walking? Is sound over there different from sound over here? Is > seeing over there different from seeing here? > I believe that panna should be stressed, not mere concentration. Also when > developing meditation subjects such as the kasinas. See A. Sujin's chapter > in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas on Samatha, panna should be very precise > and > refined. As regards the brahma viharas, Dan explained the near enemies so > well, they should be discerned. The brahmaviharas should be developed in > daily life when there are people around. When we are alone it is easy to > have noble thoughts, but what when people are unpleasant? Your ill-mannered > or lazy students? The Bodhisatta would jump at such occasions: how can > patience be developed if there are no unpleasant people? Otherwise, there > is > no way to train. > So many meditation subjects can be developed now, such as the Recollection > of the Triple Gem, metta, karuna. > I agree that awareness of nama and rupa alone is not sufficient. We are > weak, and need all the medicines of the perfections. These include all good > qualities that should be developed along with panna. I understand > Christine: > she is looking for means to disarm defilements. Only panna can do it, not > we. Even the temporary subduing of them in Samatha cannot be achieved > without panna. But how difficult to know very precisely when the citta is > kusala and when there is a subtle desire for a result, we have to think of > the near enemies. Let me quote now part of A. Sujin's chapter on > renunciation from her book about the Perfections: > > only develop paññå but also the perfections. Each of the perfections is an > important and helpful condition for the realization of the four noble > Truths. Some people may wonder why it is necessary to develop each day the > perfections together with satipatthåna. The reason is that satipatthåna > does > not arise all the time. > Someone may understand the development of the eightfold Path. He may know > that sati should be aware of the characteristics of realities that are > appearing, and that paññå gradually considers, notices and understands the > characteristics of the dhammas that are non-self, as nåma, the reality > which > experiences, or rúpa, the reality which does not experience. Satipatthåna > cannot arise all the time, but still, the fact that one has developed it, > listened to the Dhamma and has accumulated understanding of the way of > developing satipatthåna, all these factors are conditions for the arising > of > a level of sati other than sati of satipatthåna. This means: sati of the > level of all the excellent qualities which are the perfections. > Therefore, each perfection must have sati which is very refined. This kind > of sati is conditioned by one¹s habitual development of satipatthåna. > Satipatthåna cannot arise all the time, it does not arise when there are no > conditions for its arising, when akusala citta arises. However, the fact > that the development of satipatthåna has been accumulated can be a > condition > for the arising of sati of another level which can be mindful. Satipttìhåna > does not arise often in our daily life, but we should consider from now on > whether kusala of other levels also arises seldom. If these levels do not > often arise either we should develop satipatthåna together with all the > perfections, and this for an endlessly long time. We shall know that > satipatthåna gradually will grow, as well as the perfections which are > accompanied by sati which is very refined although it is not sati of the > level of satipatthåna. > In order to realize the four noble Truths the perfections should be > developed, not only generosity and morality, but also renunciation, the > giving up of clinging to the sense objects. One also needs to have the > perfections of energy and patience, one should have endurance and be > unshakable with regard to the sense objects, be they desirable or > undesirable.> > > The lack of sati in daily life and the amount of defilements they notice > may > induce people to go to centers, I believe. When we have accumulated sati > of > satipatthana, although not much, it can support sati of other levels of > kusala. We may become more sensitive to occasions where patience, karuna, > respect to the Triple Gem can be developed and this in daily life. Is a > center needed for this? But anyway, everybody will follow his accumulated > inclinations. We know the value of patience, but often we may not realize: > here is only an insignificant matter where we could develop patience, a > good > opportunity to cultivate it. When we do something in the kitchen, or any > chore there are opportunities. How otherwise will we be patient enough for > the endlessly long practice of the eightfold Path, cira kala bhavana. > With appreciation, > Nina. > > op 29-06-2002 13:45 schreef Howard op Howard: > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > It is primarily the taking of this sutta as part of the whole body of > > scripture that permits the interpretration of both formal and informal > > meditation as being included, though the very first section on > mindfulness of > > breath does, indeed, suggest standard sitting meditation. Other parts of > the > > section on mindfulness of the body are more noncommittal, suggesting to > me > > both formal and informal walking and standing meditation, but definitely > not > > being explicit. Sometimes the distinction between formal and informal > blurs > > anyway. For example, when walking, one may, as a result of purposeful > intent, > > note that one is about to turn, and that one does then turn. This can be > > "informal". It does provide a level of understanding. On the other hand, > in a > > "formal" session of walking meditation, in which one is repeatedly and > > slowly walking back and forth along a 20-30 pace path, constantly and > > carefully noting with focus the foot placements and changes, the > associated > > sensations, the intentions to turn, the turning, and the wandering of > one's > > attention, concentration and mindfulness tend to become quite heightened, > > one's "state" changes, one's attention becomes quite microscopic, and > clarity > > is enhanced. Inasmuch as the formal practice of, especially sitting and > > walking, meditation has been a part of the tradition in all schools for a > > couple thousand years, and inasmuch as all schools revere the > satipatthana > > sutta and anapanasat sutta and relate their practice to them, I find it > > reasonable to infer that these suttas do not exclude formal meditation > > practice. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14085 From: yuzhonghao Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 11:08am Subject: Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over/Victor Hi, Christine, Thank you for replying. I think you might be interested in this book http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/index.html Regards, Victor --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Thank you for your reply and your reference to The Nava Sutta. I had > read part of this Sutta before and looked for it again, but not under > the title of The Ship. > I like the chicken story, having kept chickens. It reminds me of > many 'Poultry Characters' I have known, usually Bantams, who would > become 'clucky', steal eggs from all the other hens, and generally be > bad tempered, peck anybody collecting eggs, and upset the whole > flock. Putting the hen in a quiet secluded place, maybe in a box > with a hessian bag as the door, on a nest of straw with her own eggs, > usually solved the civil disruption problem. Baby chickens only > develop properly if the hens' behaviour is constant, consistent and > concentrated, with the right conditions. :) > The story of the Adze about the wearing down of the handle by regular > daily use suggests that you can't or (shouldn't?) try to measure the > small increments of progress and understanding - just diligently keep > at it and youll 'just know' when a breakthrough occurs.... > And, The Ship story (though first appearing to me to be about > neglect) seems to say that using "Whatever comes' as practice, > remaining devoted to development, is a way towards eradicating > defilements. > > But, what a list of things to understand and develop .... > The Four Frames of Reference > The four right exertions > the four bases of power > the five faculties > the five strengths > the seven factors of awakening > the Noble Eightfold Path > > :):) I'm disappointed Victor - no sutta references? I do hope > they're all in one or two suttas or I'll be up all night trying to > find, read and understand......:) > > metta, > Christine > --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > I don't know if you have come across this discourse or if it has > been > > discussed before. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html > > > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: > > > Dear Sarah and All, > > > > > > I accept that as Jon said a day or so ago "it is the awareness > and > > > understanding in and of themselves that lead to the eradication > of > > > akusala, rather than any aspiration or determination inspired by > > that > > > awareness and understanding." > > > > > > And Sarah says:"We can say that the purpose of studying, > considering > > > and developing mindfulness is in order for the wisdom to develop > > which > > > decreases and eventually eradicates defilements. " > > > But what happens in the long period before that is > accomplished? > > I > > > keep wanting to 'do' something...to lessen the effect of the > > > defilements, even 'disarm' them. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that developing mindfulness is not enough. It is necessary > > but not sufficient for eradicating defilements. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The situation here and now for me is that emotions and reactions > > are > > > the controllers. I'm treading water, and sometimes am submerged > by > > a > > > wave. It is very uncomfortable, for me and occasionally for > > another. > > > I don't think it can be attributed to the fact that maybe I am > > now > > > more mindful and aware of feelings, because often, I'm not. It's > > as > > > if an underground stream has broken through that I'm trying to > dam > > up > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In order to eradicate defilements, there are other qualities to be > > developed than mindfulness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others seem to have learned to attenuate the power defilements > > > have over their lives. I'd like to be in that group, but I > have > > to > > > say that recently, after feeling I had some understanding, this > > part > > > of my life seems to have been all downhill.:) Accumulations > and > > > conditions..... > > > As Nina's recent post on dosa said: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13670 > > > "Even if we reason, the thoughts of annoyance keep coming back. > > > Conditions. It > > > seems we make progress, then we fall back. We are not non- > > returners, > > > and thus > > > the latent tendency lies dormant in the citta. It will condition > > > akusala > > > citta with dosa, and dosa always finds an object. If it is not > the > > > other > > > person, it is the wind or the rain, or a broken glass.". > > > > > > I seem to be less alarmed now at the thought of beginningless > > time > > > and the length of Samsara. I find myself thinking a lot > > > lately "That's just the way it is..." Sometimes the fact that I > > don't > > > seem to make progress causes me to feel a little > > discouraged ..... > > > like a cat looking at the moon and knowing it is out of reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another way to see it is the simile in the discourse: > > effluents/fermentations/asava is liken to the adze handle. > > > > > > > > > > > > But > > > the only choices are to persevere, or give up. I remember > reading > > > on the plane to Singapore in the Perfection of Determination. "We > > may > > > find that the development of right understanding hardly seems to > > make > > > any progress but we should remember that the Buddha and his > > > enlightened disciples had for innumerable lives maintained an > > > unshakable resolution to reach the goal." So it is O.K. if > progress > > > is very slow, it's natural. > > > > > > Best wishes with the practice. > > > > > > Regards, > > Victor 14086 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 0:44pm Subject: Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over/Victor Hi Victor, I think you could be right! :) The Seven Sets looks to be exactly what I was after. Thank you. metta, Christine --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hi, Christine, > > Thank you for replying. I think you might be interested in this book > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/index.html > > Regards, > Victor > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Victor, > > > > Thank you for your reply and your reference to The Nava Sutta. I > had > > read part of this Sutta before and looked for it again, but not > under > > the title of The Ship. > > I like the chicken story, having kept chickens. It reminds me of > > many 'Poultry Characters' I have known, usually Bantams, who would > > become 'clucky', steal eggs from all the other hens, and generally > be > > bad tempered, peck anybody collecting eggs, and upset the whole > > flock. Putting the hen in a quiet secluded place, maybe in a box > > with a hessian bag as the door, on a nest of straw with her own > eggs, > > usually solved the civil disruption problem. Baby chickens only > > develop properly if the hens' behaviour is constant, consistent and > > concentrated, with the right conditions. :) > > The story of the Adze about the wearing down of the handle by > regular > > daily use suggests that you can't or (shouldn't?) try to measure > the > > small increments of progress and understanding - just diligently > keep > > at it and youll 'just know' when a breakthrough occurs.... > > And, The Ship story (though first appearing to me to be about > > neglect) seems to say that using "Whatever comes' as practice, > > remaining devoted to development, is a way towards eradicating > > defilements. > > > > But, what a list of things to understand and develop .... > > The Four Frames of Reference > > The four right exertions > > the four bases of power > > the five faculties > > the five strengths > > the seven factors of awakening > > the Noble Eightfold Path > > > > :):) I'm disappointed Victor - no sutta references? I do hope > > they're all in one or two suttas or I'll be up all night trying to > > find, read and understand......:) > > > > metta, > > Christine > > --- "yuzhonghao" wrote: > > > Hi Christine, > > > > > > I don't know if you have come across this discourse or if it has > > been > > > discussed before. > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-101.html > > > > > > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > > wrote: 14087 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 3:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness (was, ADL ch. 13 (1)) Goggy --- goglerr wrote: > Hi Jon, it's been a while since we communicate 'face-to-face'. I glad > to her from u. Hope that everything is fine over there. Yes, thanks. Good to be talking to you again. > Jon: I appreciate the appeal of the 'not fast enough' school of > thought, but I fear it can easily lead one away from the importance > of awareness of present-moment realities, to an idea that things need > to be slowed down before there can be any appreciable level of > understanding. As I say, I don't think such ideas are supported by > the texts. > > G: Not only the awareness has to be penetrative and sharp on the fast > changing realities, but also has to be light > (kayalahuta/cittalahuta), malleable (kayamuduta/cittamuduta), wieldy > (kaya/cittakammannata) and proficient (kaya/cittapagunnata). Yes, these are the cetasikas (mental factors) that arise with the kusala citta, so it is in fact the citta (i.e., not the awareness) that is light, malleable and proficient. These indeed are the characteristics that distinguish kusala citta from akusala citta. > Other words, the awareness has to be swift to be concurrent the fast > arising objects of nama and rupa. The object of nama or rupa are very > momenterial. They change very fast and rapid. Their promeniency are > changing too. Let say, an oject from the touch door. If we are > mindful of it, we can observe that they are changing. But not all the > time the touch point is prominent , it changes too, then the > awereness has to go to another nama rupa object with has become more > prominent, so that the awareness has to be continuous and concurrent > with an object of nama or rupa. Within the mind too, the awareness > has to be sharp, penetrative and agile, so that it can be concurrent > with different cittas that are arising and passing away. I think you are saying that because the citta and its object changes very rapidly, awareness cannot keep up with it. (This perhaps forms the basis of the attraction to the 'slowing down' approach.) As I see it, there is no need for awareness to 'keep up with' the changing object. We agree that the goal is awareness of different realities, each to be known as it is. To my understanding, though, this does not mean awareness of all realities all the time, nor does it mean awareness of but a single moment of a dhamma (these would be things that only the likes of a Buddha could accomplish). Nor does it mean necessarily awareness of different dhammas successively. If there are moments of awareness of a single dhamma, then it doesn't matter whether these are in isolation or are part of other moments of awareness. > Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. > Goglerr As I've said above, we are not trying to 'catch' an individual moments of citta or its object, so the speed of change is not a problem. Jon > p.s: I have faith in 'slowing down'! PS Can dhammas be 'slowed down'? 14088 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of > yours by > a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara > Nikaya > which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of > concentration, > and 3) formal meditation. > The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as > *including* > formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). > The three refererences are the following: > 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] > 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] > 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] > These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, > An > Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & > Bhikkhu > Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. > > With metta, > Howard I've had a look at these suttas. Very interesting and well worth discussing. However, I don't think any of them says that awareness necessarily includes formal meditation practice or samatha/jhana attainments. Nor of course do they contradict the passage I cited from the opening of the Satipatthana Sutta that says in fairly specific terms that awareness properly developed and maintained, leads to the final goal, including the eradication of all defilements, or Jon > > > Howard: > > > Here is where sila and samadhi enter in, from my perspective. > An > > > ongoing practice of observing the precepts with mindfulness and > clear > > > comprehension, including a consistent guarding of the senses, will, > by > > > itself, condition the development of a layer of calm in the mind, > giving > > a > > > modicum of relative peace. With this as background, formal sitting > and > > > walking meditation practice, essential from my perspective, can > deepen > > and > > > strengthen that layer of calm, leading even to jhanic states which > > provide a > > > true but temporary haven and also condition the mind, making it more > fit > > for > > > the cultivation of liberating pa~n~na. Throughout all this, ongoing > > > mindfulness should play the leadership role. > > 14089 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 3:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion Lisa A rather belated response to your interesting post (to add to your collection!). --- lisa14850 wrote: > Dear Sara and Christine and others, > > Dan suggested I post this question. In the past several months, I've > been on the fringes of others' tragedies, and I get carried away with > sadness. Most recently, a teenager died after falling into the gorge > next to our house. I watched the helicopter pass back and forth with a > search light and clung to the ache in my chest and the thought that > some other mother's child was lost. But this was not compassion; it > was self-indulgence. What would compassion have done? > > Lisa Let me congratulate you on not taking the akusala for kusala. Being straight with oneself about the true nature of one's [akusala] mental states is a praiseworthy thing, I believe, and requires courage. It is one of the aspects of the perfections (e.g., truth, determination), and we are told that without it progress on the path is difficult. (What is perhaps even more difficult is to accept those tendencies for what they are, without wishing them to be otherwise!) Coming to your question, 'What would compassion do?', I wonder if knowing the answer will help. By this I mean, knowing how to 'act compassionately' doesn't actually mean we would have any more kusala another time. I think most of us have the idea, whether we would admit to it or not, that if only we knew what was the kusala thing to do, we would be able to have more kusala. But if we think about it for a moment, it's clear that this is not so -- doing the 'compassionate thing' is one thing, a wholesome mental state is another. Actually, I would say there is no answer to your question. Compassion per se doesn't 'do' anything. Yes, it is wholesome and has a specific function and a manifestation, but a person who has well developed compassion will still act in the way their (unique) inherent inclinations lead them to. The fact of their having more kusala and less akusala doesn't really change how the person acts by nature, in terms of whether they respond, say, actively or passively, in a 'practical' manner or just with advice, etc. On the other hand, if compassion does arise, the 'action' is definitely compassionate, even if conventionally speaking the person does nothing. So there is no single 'right' or 'compassionate' response. Lisa with highly developed compassion will still respond in a Lisa way. And a person with highly developed compassion doesn't have to consciously think how to act compassionately! What can be said for certain, however, is that in the example you give there would be less getting carried away with sadness, less ache in the chest. Perhaps the other point to bear in mind here is that compassion is not the only kusala mental state that may arise in these situations. It may be a case where it is impossible for compassion to arise for the particular individual; but upekkha may be possible. We have no control over this and, the fact is, it matters not. To repeat something I touched on the beginning (and which some would no doubt disagree with me on), even if there is no kusala (and a lot of akusala), it also matters not. Much more important is to see whatever appears for what it is. It's good to recognise the true nature of one's mental state, and ruing one's lack of kusala is just more akusala! Jon 14090 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 7:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Shin, You said: Thankyou for being a friend. The past which I've said is only said with extreme limitations of informations about the teaching of the Buddha. Pls kindly eliminate or forgive me for what I have suggested to you in the past. Sukin: Thanks to you too! No need to apologize for anything and nothing can, nor need to be eliminated. Your statement *did* have a positive effect. It may be that there were some kusala cittas alternating with akusala ones and it may not be possible to identify all of them, but isn't it good to know the dangerous ones?;) Shin: Recently I have realized that it is not mana, if I am trying to understand or contemplating the Vissudhimagga. BECAUSE :- reading or trying to understand the Teaching of the Buddha is a subject of purification of the mind. And at the moment of trying, is viriya with kusula citta. If only we can really understand what is kusula and akusula then we can understand the characteristic of all dhamma and its functions. Sukin: Yes so many different moments alternating. The intention to read with the aim to have more understanding and not to accumulate mere words is surely kusala. But when we read on and come upon difficult points and struggle to find out the meaning, isn't this possibly akusala? And if we carry this kind of understanding further, we might come to the conclusion that 'reading the Tipitaka is kusala' and 'reading anything else is akusala'!? But as you say further, we need to understand the difference between kusala and akusala moments. But this is tough and we end up only making estimations. However there is another problem which is, if I doubt another's interpretation for whatever reason, and I decide to read the texts directly without a 'filter', then I may fail to see that I carry into the readings my preconception of what the meaning "is not" and I may end up misunderstanding the teachings. Because in fact, the other person may be right all along. And this I think, would have been in part the result of 'mana'. Shin: And we can't go wrong about akusula or kusula because it is said clearly in the scriptures with all the phenonema. All Akusula is leading Khanda to samsara. All Kusula is detaching or lessening the Khanda from samsara, whether it is with panna or not. Sukin: We can and will go wrong until we have become enlightened. If we think we can recognize akusala and kusala just by "theory", then we will be stuck only upon the "stories" about dhamma and this will NOT lead to understanding. Shin: I can't really explain much to you, because it really requires oneself to read the Scriptures and understand it themself. Sukin: "Wise friends" Shin, is the prerequisite for the path of dhamma. I do not say that the scriptures are unimportant, they are. But more important is the wise friend who can point us to the correct understanding of it. Some people need to read and listen a lot, some don't, but all require a kalayanamitta to point the right words at the right time to them. Even Sariputta needed it. Shin: I never will regret what I have done this time, in just totally be dependent on the teaching of the Buddha, by just simply reading the scripture carefully and following it. Sukin: "Carefully" Shin? Who's being careful and what is this carefullness? How sure are we that it is panna and chanda leading the way and not some akusala cetasikas? Is there enough panna accumulated to condition the correct reading of the texts, can we be sure?! I don't mind if you regret( but don't dwell on it;-) ), but what if you are wrong and never know it? Shin: As I have mentioned again, the scriptures has all the answers to your questions or doubts and commentaries explained everything. Sukin: I believe so( haven't read anything myself ), but even to have a question requires awareness of everyday realities otherwise we may only be intellectualizing. Not saying that this is what your doing!;) Shin: There is no easy way. Sukin: Not easy at all. But there is only "one" way, and that is Satipatthana. And if we understand what this is, we at least have some direction for this life in which we have come to know the teachings. Shin: The most precious thing requires effort and determination and sammadhitti. Sukin: Right. But sammaditthi comes first, and we have to be sure that we have it before we can expect the other factors to be samma. Allow me to comment on this statement of yours "All Kusala is detaching or lessening the Khanda from samsara, whether it is with panna or not". My understanding is very limited and I am not confident about this; What you are saying is that the moments of dana and sila without panna also leads one out of samsara. I doubt it. When I give or refrain from breaking a precept without understanding that it is not "I" who is doing it, then surely I am doing it for a reward or fear of punishment. Even if I see theoretically the use of dana and sila, if at the moment of performing it I do it with a sense of self, I will have to be reborn to reap the fruit of the "intention" at that time, no? This sounds reasonable to me, does it to you?! Have I misunderstood something? Kalayamitta, Shin Hope you remain so. Best wishes, Sukin. 14091 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness (was, ADL ch. 13 (1)) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/1/02 3:27:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > I think you are saying that because the citta and its object changes very > rapidly, awareness cannot keep up with it. (This perhaps forms the basis > of the attraction to the 'slowing down' approach.) > > As I see it, there is no need for awareness to 'keep up with' the changing > object. We agree that the goal is awareness of different realities, each > to be known as it is. To my understanding, though, this does not mean > awareness of all realities all the time, nor does it mean awareness of but > a single moment of a dhamma (these would be things that only the likes of > a Buddha could accomplish). Nor does it mean necessarily awareness of > different dhammas successively. > > If there are moments of awareness of a single dhamma, then it doesn't > matter whether these are in isolation or are part of other moments of > awareness. > > > Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. > > Goglerr > > As I've said above, we are not trying to 'catch' an individual moments of > citta or its object, so the speed of change is not a problem. > > ========================== I think you are addressing something important and interesting here. It is also a subject which, to my mind, calls for clarification. First of all - yes, I think it is that "keeping up" aspect which motivates the attempt to "slow down", a matter which I *partially* question (and which is an issue separate from that of formal vs informal meditation.). The main thing, however, which I would like to see clarified, however, is the meaning of 'awareness' in what I have quoted by you above. It doesn't seem that it could mean vi~n~nana/citta, for that is available all the time. Can it mean sati? That strikes me as more probable. I would suppose that in an early "training phase", doing things more slowly could aid in the building of sati, but I also think that once a certain level of sati is in place, it is that, itself, which subjectively "slows things down" and leads to yet further sati. I'd be interested in hearing yours and others comments on this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14092 From: Howard Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/1/02 3:31:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > > > I'm a bit short on time. Let me reply briefly to this post of > > yours by > > a brief comment, and by three references to suttas in the Anguttara > > Nikaya > > which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of > > concentration, > > and 3) formal meditation. > > The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as > > *including* > > formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that). > > The three refererences are the following: > > 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View] > > 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma] > > 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step] > > These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha, > > An > > Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera & > > Bhikkhu > > Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > I've had a look at these suttas. Very interesting and well worth > discussing. > > However, I don't think any of them says that awareness necessarily > includes formal meditation practice or samatha/jhana attainments. > Nor of course do they contradict the passage I cited from the opening of > the Satipatthana Sutta that says in fairly specific terms that awareness > properly developed and maintained, leads to the final goal, including the > eradication of all defilements, or > > Jon > =========================== I think these suttas make several points relevant to previous discussions on DSG. At some point, either when I get my scanner fixed, or someone else can post them, a discussion of the sutta might be in worthwhile. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14093 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Larry Dear Nina and Larry, Is the "contact" in Patichcha Samuppada the same as the "passa" (contact without any gap with the object of the citta) chethacika? If so "passa" is with every citta (so contact too). ~meththa ranil Nina, you to see, at least in theory, that there is not one lasting moment of seeing but in fact many different cittas performing their functions > Larry, I'm wondering at what point there is contact. 14094 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no. 1 Perfections. Ch 2, no. 1. The Perfection of Generosity The perfection of generosity is mentioned first among the ten perfections. As we read in the definition of dåna, given by the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct²: Giving (dåna) has the characteristic of relinquishing; its function is to dispel greed for things that can be given away; its manifestation is non-attachment, or the achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of existence; an object that can be relinquished is its proximate cause. Most people know that generosity is the giving away of things for the benefit and happiness of others. Laypeople cannot give away all their possessions because they still cling to sense objects, but when there is an opportunity for generosity they should practice it. If one is unable to give away something one possesses, be it small or great, for the benefit of others, it will be so much harder to give up the clinging and attachment to the nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas one takes for self, beings and persons. Therefore, it is necessary to give away things for the benefit and happiness of others as much as one is able to, in order to eliminate defilements, including attachment to possessions as well as clinging to nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas one takes for beings, people and self. Thus, in our daily life we should not neglect the development of the perfection of generosity. We should know whether our generosity is a perfection or not. No matter how much we give away, generosity is not a perfection if we do not see the need to eradicate defilements. People who have understanding of the Dhamma and practise generosity should consider whether their generosity is a perfection. If someone gives away things without expecting a reward, not even rebirth in a heavenly plane, then his generosity can be a perfection. However, if someone wants to receive a reward, when he wishes for rebirth as a millionaire, or for rebirth in different degrees of heavenly planes, or if he wants to receive gain, honour and praise, then his life is still bound up with all kinds of expectations, and his goal is not the eradication of defilements. If we reflect about this we can know whether our giving at a specific moment is a perfection or not. The perfection of generosity is a condition to cross over to the further shore, namely, the eradication of defilements, different from the realm of defilements. It is an extremely long way to reach the further shore, the eradication of defilements; it is not easy to reach it. We should clearly understand what the eradication of defilements means. Therefore, we should know whether at the moment of giving we are hoping for a reward or not. Giving that eliminates lobha, attachment, is giving with the aim to eradicate defilements, and that means that we should not expect any kind of reward. Besides generosity by way of material aid, there is a higher kind of giving, and that is the giving of Dhamma. This is actually the gift of right understanding which will be beneficial both in this life and also in the lives to come. When we give material things to people who are needy and poor, this has only a temporary effect for them. We may not take into consideration the root cause of their poverty. The fact that people are poor is the result of akusala kamma, and so long as one commits akusala kamma there are conditions for rebirth as a poor person. Besides assistance in a material way, we should help people by going to the root cause of their poverty, and that is, helping them to have right understanding of the truth of the Dhamma. Thus we shall see that we are really able to help each other in daily life, both with material gifts and with the gift of Dhamma. By the gift of Dhamma we help others to gain right understanding of the Dhamma and to apply the Dhamma as well. Moreover, helping people to gain right understanding of the Dhamma can be a condition for them also to develop more kusala: generosity, morality and mental development. Therefore, a person practises loving kindness, mettå, when he helps others in different ways to understand the Dhamma, by propagating it through radio programs, by printing Dhamma books, by Dhamma discussions, by explaining the Dhamma, without expecting a result for himself. In that case his actions of generosity are a perfection, leading to the eradication of defilements. He has the firm understanding that developing kusala not bound up with lobha, attachment, is the development of the perfections. Some people who like to propagate the Dhamma want to evaluate the result of their good deeds. However, the true result of his efforts has nothing to do with the number of people who listen to the Dhamma one tries to propagate or the amount of good deeds one has performed for this purpose. The result of his efforts manifests itself in the citta of the listener who is thus better able to further develop his understanding and apply the Dhamma. 14095 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:00am Subject: paramattha manjusa Dear Shin, good to see you here. I am glad you wish to share your studies. Do you have the paramattha manjusa in Thai? I do not have it, and sometimes I may have a question. I should buy it in the Mahamongkut library next time. Success with your studies, with appreciation, Nina. 14096 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 6:47am Subject: ADL ch. 14 (1) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 14 (1) THE FUNCTION OF JAVANA When we see, hear, smell, taste, experience an object through the body-sense or through the mind-door, there is not only one citta experiencing the object through the appropriate doorway, but a series or process of cittas. A rupa which impinges on one of the senses is experienced by a series of cittas. When that sense-door process is over, the object is experienced by cittas through the mind-door. Sense-door processes and mind-door processes arise and fall away continuously. We may not know that both in a sense-door process and in a mind-door process there are akusala cittas or kusala cittas arising. Because of our accumulated ignorance we do not clearly know our akusala cittas and kusala cittas and we do not recognize our more subtle defilements. In a sense-door process the object is experienced first by cittas which are not kusala cittas or akusala cittas; it is experienced by kiriyacittas and by vipakacittas. The sense-door-adverting-consciousness (panca- dvaravajjana-citta) is an ahetuka kiriyacitta (a kiriya-citta without beautiful roots or unwholesome roots). It is succeeded by one of the dvi-panca-vinnanas (the five pairs, which are : seeing-consciousness, hearing-consciousness etc.) and this citta is ahetuka vipaka. Then there are two more ahetuka vipakacittas : the sampatic-chana-citta which receives the object and the santirana-citta which investigates the object. The santirana-citta is succeeded by the votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness) which is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. The votthapana-citta determines the object and is then succeeded by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. In the case of those who are arahats there are no kusala cittas or akusala cittas succeeding the votthapana-citta but kiriyacittas. When the cittas of the sense-door process have fallen away, cittas of the mind-door process experience the object. First there are bhavanga-cittas and then the mano- dvaravajjana- citta arises which has the function of adverting to the object through the mind-door. The mano- dvaravajjana-citta is succeeded by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas in the case of those who are not arahats. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta is not kusala or akusala, it is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. Since cittas arise and fall away very rapidly it is hard to know the different cittas which arise. Often we might not even know when we have kusala cittas or akusala cittas. For example, after there has been seeing we may not realize when there is attachment to the object, when there is aversion towards it, or when there is ignorance of realities. If we study the Dhamma we will learn about our more subtle defilements. Ignorance of our akusala cittas is dangerous. If we do not realize when we have akusala cittas we will continue accumulating akusala. The kusala cittas or akusala cittas which arise perform a function; they perform the function of javana or 'running through the object'. In the sense-door process the votthapana-citta has determined the object already when the javana-cittas arise and in the mind-door process the mano-dvaravajjana-citta has adverted to the object already when the javana-cittas arise. Thus, the kusala cittas or akusala cittas which follow have as their only function to 'run through' the object. Usually there are seven cittas in succession which perform the function of javana. If the first javana-citta is kusala, the succeeding six cittas are also kusala cittas ; if the first javana-citta is akusala, the succeeding six cittas are also akusala cittas. Do we realize it when javana-cittas are cittas rooted in lobha, dosa or moha, or when they are kusala cittas? We are ignorant most of the time, even of javana-cittas. 14097 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 10:46am Subject: Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Dear group, What exactly is Tathagatagarbha? Is it a Theravada doctrine? Is it the same as Alayavijnana? Is it important to learn about? metta, Christine 14098 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Hi, Christine - In a message dated 7/1/02 10:46:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > > Dear group, > > What exactly is Tathagatagarbha? Is it a Theravada doctrine? Is it > the same as Alayavijnana? Is it important to learn about? > > metta, > Christine > ======================== It is definitely not Theravadin. It is a term of one school of Mahayana. I believe it means 'Buddha womb' and that it refers to the potential for complete enlightenment in all beings. Although on the face of it, it seems rather innocuous, some writers, David Kalupahana, for example, consider it to be a kind of substantialist aberration in Mahayana, and contrary, for example, to the middle-way, emptiness direction taken by such as Nagarjuna. It isn't the same as alayavijnana. Alayavijnana is "storehouse consciousness", which, in Mahayana, is quite close to the bhavangasota notion of Theravada. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14099 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Larry Hi Ranil, you are correct. Phassa arises with every citta. So every citta is a miniature version of paticcasamuppada. On the other hand, maybe we could say sense consciousness in 5 door process is first 'contact' with a rupa, so to speak. I think these patterns of evolution are evident on different levels of organization, but maybe not. It's all pretty confusing to me. Headache! 14100 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 7:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Hi again Christine - Here are two references I just found: http://www.selfknowledge.com/dtat.htm http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Buddhism/doc With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14101 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (1) Dear group, does javana citta cause vipaka citta? Does it cause anything else? Does votthapana citta decide what kind of javana is appropriate? thanks, Larry 14102 From: <> Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (1) Re: "Dear group, does javana citta cause vipaka citta? Does it cause anything else? Does votthapana citta decide what kind of javana is appropriate? thanks, Larry" There are some useful posts in Useful Posts File about votthapana citta. The answer is yes, votthapana does determine the javana but that determination is based on 'accumulations'. I assume this is accumulations of past javana cittas. It seems to be unknown where all this is accumulated. Maybe the alayavijnana :-) Larry ps: accumulating, compounding, compacting, and forming are all the same and is the very essence of experience. Not seeing that is ignorance. 14103 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Hi Howard, and All, How my question came about is that I also look in on a multi- tradition List and find sometimes that I am unfamiliar with whether a doctrine is from All-of-Buddhism or is a doctrine of a particular tradition only. The List has over a thousand members, so a wide variety of posts appear of differing reliability. Lots of things 'sound Theravada', mostly I know what is, but sometimes I am unsure. Someone put up a long quote from Tsung-Mi with no link.(of which I give a sample para. below) "Originally there was a single true spiritual Nature, uncreate and imperishable, neither increasing nor decreasing, changeless and immutable. Sentient beings, existing from the beginningless beginning, suffering delusion, have been unaware of it. Being hidden, it is called Tathagatagarbha, the womb of the Tathagata. Because Tathagatagarbha is hidden, there are the mental characteristics called birth and death. True Mind, unborn and imperishable, and the delusions of birth and death, coexist. They are neither identical nor different, and this is called Alayavijnana, the storehouse of consciousness. Alayavijnana has two aspects, the enlightened and the unenlightened. Due to its unenlightened dimension, whenever a deluded thought appears, it is called a sign of karma. Since this thought is not recognized as unreal in essence, it activates the subjective consciousness and also projects the illusive world of objects. But one does not realize that the objective world appears out of the delusions of one's own mind. One clings to this world of objects, believing it to have indisputable existence. This is attachment to dhamma or phenomena." Thanks for your replies Howard (which mean more terms to look up :)). I'm having trouble getting your second link to match the topic... any hints? However, I also have continued to research a little on any link between the two terms Alayavijnana and Tathagatgarbha. I found this article. Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness by Venerable Dr. Walpola Rahula. http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/alaya1.htm "In the Lankavatarasutra the term tathagatagarbha is used as a synonym for alayavijnana and is described as 'luminous by nature' (prakrtiprabhasvara) and 'pure by nature' (prakrtiparisuddha) but appearing as impure 'because it is sullied by adventitious defilements' (agantuklesopaklistataya). In the Anguttaranikaya, citta is described as 'luminous' (pabhassara), but it is 'sullied by adventitious minor defilements' (agantukehi upakkilesehi upakkilittham). One may notice here that alaya-vijnana (or tathagatgarbha) and citta are described almost by the same terms. We have seen earlier that the Sandhi-nirmocana-sutra says that alayavijnana is also called citta. Asanga too mentions that it is named citta." What do you reckon? And didn't dsg have a discussion on luminous mind a while back? or was that a different thing altogether..... metta, Chris --- Howard wrote: > Hi again Christine - > > Here are two references I just found: > > http://www.selfknowledge.com/dtat.htm > http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Buddhism/doc > > With metta, > Howard 14104 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 3:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Larry, Sorry for the delay.....I’ve been trying to avoid the computer over the last few days because of a rt wrist injury....(slowly using the mouse with the left hand now). You asked about whether ‘resultant consciousness does not arise with lobha or dosa?’ I think the latest extract from ADL on javana cittas will have already confirmed for you that lobha or dosa only arise with akusala cittas (unwholesome consciousness) in the javana process which are quite distinct from the vipaka (resultant) or kiriya (inoperative, i.e neither cause nor result) cittas. After you’ve digested the segment (or at the end of the chapter), let me know if this still isn’t clear. As we’re interested in the applicability of abhidhamma in daily life, I think it’s important to consider the relevance of this to the development of satipatthana. If there is the (wrong) idea that lobha or dosa (attachment or aversion) are just the results of kamma, or that they arise with seeing or hearing automatically, I don’t believe there will be any conditions to understand the sense door experiencing such as seeing, hearing and so on, for what it is -- i.e. just a brief moment of experiencing an object with indifferent feeling, resulting from previous kamma and other conditions and quite distinct from all the stories and ‘emotions’ which arise on account of what is seen or heard. In the same way, if we have the idea of lobha and dosa as result-- rather than arising with kusala and akusala cittas later in the process -- it gives fuel to the ‘fatalistic’ idea that everything is pre-determined from previous lives and therefore inevitable. Understanding about accumulations, on the other hand -- and about kusala and akusala cittas in particular -- still doesn’t mean there is any self that controls or determines outcomes, but it shows how different conditions operate. It shows how the ‘reactions’ -- or rather the noble or ignoble qualities -- arise with the javana cittas following the vipaka cittas of seeing consciousness and so on. This sounds rather garbled, so I hope I haven't confused anyone further;-) ..... I’m just looking at a couple of your other posts and questions briefly. You just wrote to Ranil about phassa and explained that it arises with every citta. If there were no ‘contact’ between consciousness and its object (whether a nama or rupa), would there be any experiencing of the object? Would there be any attachment or grasping arising on account of the object and so on...... So we see the importance of conditions and all the various ‘parts’ coming together, for consciousness to occur Nina recently quoted from Vis. XXII, 72: “No store of broken states, no future stock; Those born balance like seeds on needle points. Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth; Those present decay, unmingled with those past. They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go; Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky.” ***** I hope this helps explain a little about phassa (contact) as a universal cetasika (mental factor) and as an essential factor in dependent origination. Rob K may add more details or you may like to review his series on d.o. in Useful Posts. Finally, you also asked (and answered;-))some Qs about javana cittas and votthapana cittas. In brief, because I’m sure we’ll soon be reading more detail in the extracts, it is the cetana (intention) in particular, arising in the javana processes with the lobha, dosa and other mental factors which causes the vipaka cittas. As you also suggest, lobha or dosa arising .with the javana citta now will ‘accumulate’ a little bit more and make it just that little bit easier for lobha or dosa to arise again in another javana process by way of many different conditions. Thank you for your helpful extracts from Vism on accumulations; “XIV 131: [on the formations (sankhara) aggregate] what is said to have the characteristic of forming is that which has the characteristic of agglomerating. n. 57: "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampindana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating; for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis. (Pm. 484)” ***** Many thanks, Larry. always good talking to you and I don’t mind how I’m addressed;-) Sarah ===== --- <> wrote: > Hi Satah, are you saying that resultant consciousness does not arise > with lobha or dosa? 14105 From: sarahdhhk Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 5:03pm Subject: Re: Perfections Ch 2, no. 1 Dear Nina, (Chris & All), I'm appreciating your translation of the `Perfections' by K.Sujin. Today I was reading the installment on generosity and considering further. You explained to Christine before about why equanimity is given after metta and I was reading about why generosity is given first in the Cariyapitaka (p245 in B.Bodhi's Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries): "Giving is stated at the beginning: (a) because it is common to all beings, since even ordinary people practise giving; (b) because it is the least fruitful; and (c) because it is the easiest to practise." ***** Hmm, `..easiest to practise'. Pause for thought: how many opportunities do we pass up in a day for giving of one kind or another, even though we know life is so very short (in theory)? If this is the easiest, no wonder the other paramis don't come easily... What I've really been reflecting on is the characteristic of dana (generosity) as being without attachment or expectation. We read in the same text: "Giving has the characteristic of relinquishing; its function is to dispel greed for things that can be given away; it manifestation is non-attachment, or the achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of existence; an object that can be relinquished is it proximate cause." ***** We read in the extract from K.Sujin's book about how dhamma dana is the highest form of giving: ..... "Besides assistance in a material way, we should help people by going to the root cause of their poverty, and that is, helping them to have right understanding of the truth of the Dhamma. Thus we shall see that we are really able to help each other in daily life, both with material gifts and with the gift of Dhamma. By the gift of Dhamma we help others to gain right understanding of the Dhamma and to apply the Dhamma as well. Moreover, helping people to gain right understanding of the Dhamma can be a condition for them also to develop more kusala: generosity, morality and mental development. Therefore, a person practises loving kindness, mettå, when he helps others in different ways to understand the Dhamma..." ..... We may think that whenever we speak or write about the dhamma, that this is dhamma dana. Of course, it depends on the intentions. Sometimes we may be concerned about whether anyone has heard or listened to what we've spoken or read what we've written here;-). We may have other hopes and expectations and be waiting for a reply of acknowledgment. There are bound to be kusala and akusala cittas involved when we offer dhamma, I think and only the panna and sati will distinguish the different states. Gradually we may learn to give dhamma dana with less expectation or concern about the result. I was particularly reflecting on the final part of today's extract of K.Sujin's book on this theme:. "Some people who like to propagate the Dhamma want to evaluate the result of their good deeds. However, the true result of his efforts has nothing to do with the number of people who listen to the Dhamma one tries to propagate or the amount of good deeds one has performed for this purpose. The result of his efforts manifests itself in the citta of the listener who is thus better able to further develop his understanding and apply the Dhamma." ***** When we were in Sri Lanka, K.Sujin mentioned to Jon and myself that the Foundation (the Centre where she and others teach) doesn't belong to her. Her intention is for the teaching of dhamma to continue, but she doesn't mind if it continues or not. She does her best to spread the dhamma with kusala intention, but has no expectations or regrets on this score. Again she reminded us that the purpose of the development should be the reduction of wrong view, clinging to self and mana (conceit), not the accumulation of details, self-importance or more conceit. Again, as we read in the Cariyapitaka (p281, BB): ..... "Giving thus, the Great Man does not give unwillingly, nor by afflicting others, nor out of fear, moral shame, or the scolding of those in need of gifts. When there is something excellent, he does not give what is mean. He does not give extolling himself and dispraging others. He does not give out of desire for the fruit, nor with loathing for those who ask, nor with lack of consideration. Rather, he gives thoroughly, with his own hand, at the proper time, considerately, without discrimination, filled with joy throughout the three times (i.e. before presenting the gift, while giving it, and after giving it). Having given, he does not become remorseful afterwards. He does not become conceited or obsequious in relation to the recipients, but behaves amiably towards them....." ***** (Chris, perhaps with regard to your questions on feeding squirrels and other creatures, we can see how dana can be increased and become a parami, by understanding more about its nature, by giving with `consideration'. `at the proper time' and so on. I think we can see how satipatthana developed with generosity will help there to be more understanding and growth of this parami.) Finally, on the subject of expectations (in general) and sorrow, I was re-reading the helpful summary of the Silavimamsa Jataka (which Manji quoted in part before) in Nina's own `Perfections' under nekkhama (renunciation) parami. Even if the object of attachment and expectations is the gift of dhamma, the desires are still like the pieces of meat here: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenme nt.htm#Chapter%202 ..... "In the train to Bodhgaya Bhante Dhammadhara read to us the "Silavimamsa-Jãtaka" (no. 330). It is said that a hawk seized a piece of meat and was pecked at by other birds who also wanted it, until he let go of it. Then another bird seized it who was harassed in his turn until he let go of it, and then the same happened to other birds who seized that piece of meat. Whoever let go of it was left in peace. The Bodhisatta said: These desires of ours are like pieces of meat. To those that grasp at them is sorrow, and to those that let go is peace. In the same Jãtaka we read about another example of the sorrow caused by clinging. A female slave Pingala had made an appointment with her lover and was waiting for him, but he did not turn up. So long as she was waiting and hoping for his arrival she was restless and could not sleep peacefully. Hope brings sorrow and the absence of hope brings peace is the lesson taught by this example. We discussed the application of this Jãtaka in daily life. We have many expectations which are all forms of attachment, lobha..." ***** With gratitude for all your dhamma dana and helpful reminders on the parami, Nina. Sarah ===== 14106 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 5:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Shin, Thank you for replying. I see Sukin is also keeping you busy... --- shiau_in_lin wrote: > Dear Sarah, > We can use anything word or call it whatever but the process of the > citta has accumulated the contemplating of the realities or about the > realities. At that moment, it is already the accumulation of panna > and sati. There is definitely no attachment of the sensual objects, > only letting go of ignorance. I think that if you are referring to sampaja~n~na for ‘contemplating of the realities” as used throughout the Satipatthana Sutta (which you mentioned), then I agree with these comments. We read in the commentary notes to the sutta that: “Sampajaano = “Clearly comprehending.” Endowed with knowledge called circumspection (sampaja~n~na) Clearly comprehending - Discerning rightly, entirely and equally (sammaa samantato sama~nca pajaananto)” ***** >Everything is accumulated, even if you > memorized the whole Tipitaka, it will be a Upanissa-paccaya in the > future. And when it is conditioned, it will arise. Remember Javana > citta and all the Paccaya. We are not looking at only now. There is > still a future Khanda or Ayatana. ..... Of course sampajanna only refers to very specific cittas accompanied by sati and panna as you mentioned. In other words, it only refers to moments of satipatthana. For most of us, when we read (or memorize) even small amounts of the Tipitaka, it’s obvious that sampajanna only arises rarely (if we’re lucky, I hear Sukin adding). Much of the time when we are studying, there is ignorance, attachment to not only what is read or being ‘grasped’, but also to sights, sounds, smells and thoughts while we read. I was studying some Pali this morning and there was quite a bit of dosa when I had to keep checking the index to find out the meaning of the vocabulary. In other words, I think it always depends on the citta at any given time as to whether it will be upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition) or other conditions for future kusala or akusala mental states. I know for myself, that often when I study intensely or try to memorize lists or vocabulary, for example, that it is soon forgotten. It may as you say, still act as a condition for wholesome states, but we know from the texts that the main conditions for the development of pa~n~na are hearing, considering and applying the teachings. Robert K recently quoted this from the commentary: ***** “In the satipatthana sutta atthakatha it says that the wisdom factor of enlightenment is dependent on: "Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects. Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma. """endquote” ***** You mention that we are ‘not only looking at now’ and this reminds me of comments that our friend Erik used to make. If we consider or understand that in fact there only is ‘now’ or these paramattha dhammas appearing now, what other dhammas could sampajanna possibly ‘clearly comprehend’? ..... > I will not be able to come in as often as I can. BUT if there is > anything which is nice, I will try my best to quote it from the > Tipitaka and other commentaries for the reference of others. ..... We’ll appreciate your quotes (or references may be easier for you to give) or comments. I was interested to look through the list of the parts of the body you quoted and to see which parts were not conditioned by kamma. ..... > > Sarah ! In most Sutta,the Lord Buddha constantly mentioned the > Bhukkhuis to remember and contemplate his teaching. I believe in him. > If it is not beneficiary, why would he say it !...Doesn't that make > you wonder ? Any way it is up to your own faith. From my recent > experiences, it has helped me in understanding the realities in my > daily life because it is like a road map for me to reference on. OK ! ..... I certainly agree with the importance of contemplation and careful consideration. Some people read a lot. I’ve always found it more helpful to read a little at a time and contemplate. We can see all the different accumulations in this regard on DSG. Sukin likes to listen, but doesn’t like to read. You and several others like to read a lot. Whatever is meant by ‘remember and contemplate’ (I’d be glad if you can give us a reference or quote to discuss further) they must refer to kusala cittas accompanied by sati. I think you’ve raised some very helpful points to consider here, Shin. I’m finding it is a condition for some useful reflection just to write to you. ..... > I guess I am talking more than I should. Take care. > Kalayamitta, > Shin ..... Not at all, Shin. It’s a pleasure to hear from you after so long. I hope you take any discussion in good faith. Like you, I rather appreciate studying on my own most the time, though I've found all the discussion on this list has been a great incentive for this. Wishing you and your husband well....it should be lovely weather in Switzerland now. I’m dreaming about the hiking we were doing there at this time last year. By the way, I wonder if you have a photo of yourself/yourselves (and your dog;-)) to add to our photo album of photogenic members? If you haven’t seen it, it’s on the homepage on the left side at ‘photos’. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Many thanks again, Shin. Sarah ===== 14107 From: Howard Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Hi, Chris - There are currents and counter-currents within Mahayana. Some of these are quite compatible with Theravada. Others, superficially similar in "sound" are substantialist reinterpretations. The writings of Vasubandhu and Asanga, the founders of the yogacara-vijnanavada school of Mahayana are rather compatible with Theravada, with alayavijnana being pretty much the ordinary flow of experience, defiled in the worldling, but undefiled in the arahant (and bodhisattva), and with tathgatagarbha being merely the potential in that flow for the defilements being uprootable due to their not being inherent, but only adventitious. However, the idealism expressed in the vijnanavada of such scriptures as the Lankavatara Sutra loses the clean, emptiness-oriented of Vasubandhu (and Nagarjuna), and, as I see it, adds on a kind of Vedantic mix filled with the smell of self and substantialism. I believe that in reading Mahayana materials that include such terms as 'alayavijnana' and 'tathagatagarbha', it is often difficult to separate the Buddhism from the aberrations, and great care is needed. In my opinion, what is good in Mahayana has all its roots in the tipitaka, and the tipitaka serves as a safe touchstone and refuge. If you are really interested in this whole matter, I can suggest a book by the Theravadin scholar David Kalupahana that may be to your liking. BTW, as far as that second link is concerned, I just tried it, and it no longer works. Sorry - anicca! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/2/02 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > > Hi Howard, and All, > > How my question came about is that I also look in on a multi- > tradition List and find sometimes that I am unfamiliar with whether a > doctrine is from All-of-Buddhism or is a doctrine of a particular > tradition only. The List has over a thousand members, so a wide > variety of posts appear of differing reliability. Lots of > things 'sound Theravada', mostly I know what is, but sometimes I am > unsure. > Someone put up a long quote from Tsung-Mi with no link.(of which I > give a sample para. below) > "Originally there was a single true spiritual Nature, uncreate and > imperishable, neither increasing nor decreasing, changeless and > immutable. Sentient beings, existing from the beginningless beginning, > suffering delusion, have been unaware of it. Being hidden, it is > called Tathagatagarbha, the womb of the Tathagata. Because > Tathagatagarbha is hidden, there are the mental characteristics called > birth and death. True Mind, unborn and imperishable, and the delusions > of birth and death, coexist. They are neither identical nor different, > and this is called Alayavijnana, the storehouse of consciousness. > Alayavijnana has two aspects, the enlightened and the unenlightened. > Due to its unenlightened dimension, whenever a deluded thought > appears, it is called a sign of karma. Since this thought is not > recognized as unreal in essence, it activates the subjective > consciousness and also projects the illusive world of objects. But one > does not realize that the objective world appears out of the delusions > of one's own mind. One clings to this world of objects, believing it > to have indisputable existence. This is attachment to dhamma or > phenomena." > > Thanks for your replies Howard (which mean more terms to look up :)). > I'm having trouble getting your second link to match the topic... any > hints? However, I also have continued to research a little on any > link between the two terms Alayavijnana and Tathagatgarbha. I found > this article. Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness by Venerable Dr. > Walpola Rahula. > http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/alaya1.htm > "In the Lankavatarasutra the term tathagatagarbha is used as a > synonym for alayavijnana and is described as 'luminous by nature' > (prakrtiprabhasvara) and 'pure by nature' (prakrtiparisuddha) but > appearing as impure 'because it is sullied by adventitious > defilements' (agantuklesopaklistataya). In the Anguttaranikaya, citta > is described as 'luminous' (pabhassara), but it is 'sullied by > adventitious minor defilements' (agantukehi upakkilesehi > upakkilittham). One may notice here that alaya-vijnana (or > tathagatgarbha) and citta are described almost by the same terms. We > have seen earlier that the Sandhi-nirmocana-sutra says that > alayavijnana is also called citta. Asanga too mentions that it is > named citta." > What do you reckon? > And didn't dsg have a discussion on luminous mind a while back? or > was that a different thing altogether..... > > metta, > Chris > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14108 From: goglerr Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness (was, ADL ch. 13 (1)) Hi Jon, > In a message dated 7/1/02 3:27:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jon writes: > > > I think you are saying that because the citta and its object changes very rapidly, awareness cannot keep up with it. (This perhaps forms the basis of the attraction to the 'slowing down' approach.) G: I didn't mean the 'slowing down' approach from this aspect. I was only refering to bodily movement (of course, on certain time!) > > As I see it, there is no need for awareness to 'keep up with' the changing object. We agree that the goal is awareness of different realities, each to be known as it is. To my understanding, though, this does not mean awareness of all realities all the time, nor does it mean awareness of but a single moment of a dhamma (these would be things that only the likes of a Buddha could accomplish). Nor does it mean necessarily awareness of different dhammas successively. > > If there are moments of awareness of a single dhamma, then it doesn't matter whether these are in isolation or are part of other moments of awareness. _________________________________________________________ G: Of course in our daily life, we cannot have sati to be the all the time. As u said , and I agree, that there are isolated moments of sati. And I personally too, try to mindful throughout day, and as I experience isolated moments and I find that it's wonderful and have much benefit. Didn't the Buddha said that sati is helpful everywhere? I see it that we are looking at different aspect and different emphasis. On my sharing, I was focusing on 'formal meditation' - as in 'formal sitting and walking'. I do them to whenever I have the time, and I find that a succesion, a continouity of sati, for a period of time, more profound and clearer dhamma are presented. I not trying to compare with biasness but a matter of explanation and understanding. They are from my personal experience that I share. _________________________________________________________ > > As I've said above, we are not trying to 'catch' an individual moments of citta or its object, so the speed of change is not a problem. > > G 14109 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sri Lanka Visit Sumane Very nice to hear from you. Thanks again for your kind words. Please don't feel there is even the slightest thing that could have turned out any better for our meeting in Colombo, from our point of view. It was a pleasure for us all, and we look forward to the next opportunity (in Colombo again, or perhaps in Bangkok if there is any chance of you making a trip there?). I appreciate your difficulties of time and access in sending messages to the list. But we will be delighted to hear from you whenever you can make it. Jon --- sumane758 wrote: > Dear Jon, Sukin & all, > > I feel bad that I take time to respond. This is because of so much > commitment to my job – providing solace to my countrymen in dire > straits (by virtue of my job in a bank), the time constraints > entailing the effort (which involves extensive travel to remote areas > without e-mail), the use of office PC-server-mail box for dhamma > communications etc. > > I am impressed & inspired with your kind words on my contributions at > the Colombo Meeting & to the List. Whatever, I don't deserve so much > praise for what I have done since I could have done more for you nice > people here, I should have but I didn't. I was all-eager to meet the > Group & discuss, especially K Sujin. Sarah would bear evidence to my > enthusiasm thereon and with so early notice given, I think I should > have done more. Little things like visiting the Hotel & looking into > arrangements before your arrival, especially when Nihal was > conversant with the venue & the facilities it offered. This may be > because of a feeling of alien-ness towards you all, generated with a > feeling of humbleness/inferiority originating from the lesser > knowledge of dhamma; may be, may not be but the greatest thing is > that I now know, if it was so, then it all is unfounded. That's after > meeting you all. > ... > Regards! > > Sumane Rathnasuriya 14110 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 9:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > > > Thanks for the homework, Howard (!) > > > > Actually, I look forward to reading these suttas over the weekend. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Actually, I apologize for having given the material to you just by > reference, and not quoting it. The light on my scanner needs replacing. > Otherwise, I would have quoted the material for you. Absolutely no apology necessary, Howard (I was just following along the standing homework joke that comes up from time to time). I have the book, and always enjoy a chance to browse (it's a very browsable book, I find). > ------------------------------------------------------ > > I am pleased to know (if I read you correctly) that it is not > something > > within the Satipatthana Sutta itself that leads you to the > understanding > > in question (although I of course would agree that a sutta should > always > > be read in the context of other suttas and the Tipitika as a whole, > and > > never in isolation). > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is primarily the taking of this sutta as part of the whole > body of > scripture that permits the interpretation of both formal and informal > meditation as being included, though the very first section on > mindfulness of > breath does, indeed, suggest standard sitting meditation. Other parts of the > section on mindfulness of the body are more noncommittal, suggesting to me > both formal and informal walking and standing meditation, but definitely > not being explicit. It may well be possible to give the Satipatthana Sutta an interpretation that is consistent with the 'formal meditation' / jhanic approach, but is this an interpretation that the sutta actually requires? If not, then surely this casts doubt on formal sitting meditation / the jhanas (or their near equivalents) as a *necessary* part of satipatthana. > Sometimes the distinction between formal and informal blurs > anyway. For example, when walking, one may, as a result of purposeful > intent, > note that one is about to turn, and that one does then turn. This can be > "informal". It does provide a level of understanding. On the other hand, > in a > "formal" session of walking meditation, in which one is repeatedly and > slowly walking back and forth along a 20-30 pace path, constantly and > carefully noting with focus the foot placements and changes, the > associated > sensations, the intentions to turn, the turning, and the wandering of one's > attention, concentration and mindfulness tend to become quite > heightened, > one's "state" changes, one's attention becomes quite microscopic, and > clarity is enhanced. Fortunately for us, the teachings are still sufficiently extant to be able to check for ourselves whether a particular form of practice, and therefore any experience arising from it, is in accordance with the Buddha's actual words. We do not have to rely solely on the opinion of another (including and perhaps most significantly one who is a teacher to us) on this very important point. Do the texts, for example, speak of slow walking (with or without 'noting with focus the foot placements' etc) as a practice, as a *means to* the arising of understanding? How does noting one's foot placements fit in with 'the all'/the khandhas that the suttas say are to be known? The texts are the ultimate touchstone for right or wrong view. We cannot safely rely on our own intuition or anyone else's assurance on this. > Inasmuch as the formal practice of, especially sitting and > walking, meditation has been a part of the tradition in all schools for a > couple thousand years, and inasmuch as all schools revere the > satipatthana > sutta and anapanasat sutta and relate their practice to them, I find it > reasonable to infer that these suttas do not exclude formal meditation > practice. Talking of reasonable inferences then, would it also be reasonable to infer that if sitting and walking meditation were a necessary part of satipatthana they would be clearly identified as such in the Satipatthana Sutta? You mention tradition among the various schools of Buddhism. There has always been and will always be (I am sure), among those who choose to lead the homeless life, a tradition of spending time in solitary contemplation. There is nothing remarkable about this. In the time of the Buddha it was obviously very widespread. Because it was generally associated with the development of certain kinds of kusala, it was encouraged by the Buddha. However, it is not called 'formal practice', in the texts, or 'practice' of any kind, as far as I know, and I don't think that's a very appropriate term for it. 'Formal practice' suggests that the time outside those periods is less a time of practice, whereas a reading of some of the commentarial literature would quickly show this not to be the case for those monks who undertook regular solitary contemplation, even for those developing high levels of samatha. In any event, this is quite a different issue from the question of formal sitting meditation practice as a necessary part of satipatthana, according to the Buddha's word. Encouragement of solitary contemplation (actually, of the kusala that is associated with solitary contemplation) does not amount to an endorsement of solitary contemplation as a necessary aspect of the path. Jon 14111 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 10:16pm Subject: Becoming a Buddhist Monk Interested in reading the ongoing experiences of an American going to the forests of Thailand to become a Buddhist Monk? He will be attending the famous and difficult Wat Pah Nanachat (International Forest Temple) in a short time. Want to follow his adventures as he follows the Buddhist path? To help spread the dharma, join the Yahoo Group: The Triple Gem at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thetriplegem/join 14112 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Howard, Goggy, Shin and all, Thank you Howard for your patience answering my questions. No need to answer all, many of my questions are more exclamations! For a long time I was wondering what motivated people to go to centers for intensive meditation, I really try to understand them. You described the atmosphere in such a center by your answers. Goggy explained that some people need a tranquillizer (in the right sense, by way of samatha), they are so restless and cannot even think of paramattha dhammas. I really see his point. Is there no other way to help them? We could speak about their problems, and show them that these are just dhammas, arising because of conditions, beyond control. We could speak about paramattha dhammas without mentioning any names, couldn't we? Another matter is that people are so impressed by the teacher who is so kind, calm, understanding. But, as A. Sujin often said, it is not the person who counts, it is the Dhamma and we have to check this *ourselves*. How much clinging is there to a person? This can blind us. When we have piti and somanassa (rapture and happy feeling) how much clinging is there? A good friend is important, but, as A. Sujin said, it is the Dhamma that is your good friend. It is difficult not to cling to people, whenever we like someone, find him or her sympathetic, there is already clinging. Anybody who can help us to have more understanding of the teachings is our good friend. I had to learn this in the course of years, now I appreciate many good friends who give me good reminders. Lodewijk said, that it is excellent what Shin is doing now and I understand her so well. She sees that clinging to a teacher is no good, that we have to check the teachings ourselves. Lodewijk reminded me that the Buddha said, take Dhamma as your island, as your refuge. We then read that this means developing satipatthana. It is difficult to detect clinging, to persons, to our progress. Lack of progress may be a motive to go to centers. And then, noticing progress because of this may be a motive. I am concerned that people may not check this: is this progress they notice not merely in their thoughts? Does it matter to be able to notice progress? If it matters to us we may neglect again the dhamma now. This is very important: how much understanding is there of nama and rupa now? Are they different from each other? That is the first thing that has to be known. If we skip the first stage of insight the next ones cannot follow, and wrong view cannot be eradicated. People want so much to have less lobha, dosa, and moha, but first wrong view has to be eradicated. Otherwise, no way. Howard's suttas: I select "Living by Dhamma", about the monk who masters Dhamma, repeats itthinks about it, but neglects to go apart and devotes himself to calm. Ekiibhaava.m vissajjeti, gives himself to being alone. The sutta ends with: see these tree roots, meditate. Jhaayathaa. The Buddha spoke to monks, they should not chat in the villages. Meditate: as discussed before, this has two meanings, I shall repeat it for those who are new. The Co. to this sutta explains that the roots of trees means, places which are free of people. It states: Thus, there are two kinds of jhana: aramanupanijjhaana (contemplation of the objects of samatha) and lakkhanupanijjhaana (contemplation of the characteristics of impermanence, etc.) Before, we discussed that samatha and vipassana are developed both, that jhana is most difficult and not for everybody, that even those who attain jhana must also develop vipassana in order to realize enlightenment. For those who like Pali: Here is the text about jhaana I referred to some months ago: Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha (do not be neglectful, do not be slothful). The other sutta next time. To conclude, I quote: As Jon wrote to Lisa, It strikes me how different accumulations of different people are. Some, when reading this may have aversion, but I feel piti and somanassa, I feel as if Jon hands me a present. Wonderful, I need to be reminded that akusala does not matter, that it is much more important to see whatever appears for what it is. I know in theory, but I keep on forgetting. Best wishes Nina. op 30-06-2002 17:52 schreef Howard op Howard: (I did not paste all): As far as what is experienced during formal meditation is concerned, > well, this is a bit like trying to describe ice cream to those who may have > tried milk but no dessert. ;-) It really needs to be directly experienced. > As far as accumulations are concerned, well, it seems to me that we > can make all sorts of guesses and assumptions about what might or might not > be our "accumulations", but, in fact, we don't know. I do know that again and > again the Buddha instructed his followers to find "roots of trees" etc and to > meditate. I can attest first hand as to the difference in intensity there is > of concentration, mindfulness, and ease of detailed, direct investigation > between formal meditation (if pursued with regularity) and a practice of > moment-to-moment mindfulness during ordinary activity. I strongly recommend > both.... > One more point about retreats: They are helpful from time to time, but > they are *not* the cornerstone of a practice. The cornerstone is a daily, > regular practice of one's own. Meditation is always available. The breath, > sensations, feelings, thoughts, inclinations - all there, always available > for investigation, both during "ordinary" moments, and, more clearly and > powerfully, during formal practice. The joy of the Dhamma is enlivened by the > sustenance obtained from regular, formal practice. The study and the practice > support each other. Each is impoverished by the absence of the other. Howard. 14113 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Larry op 01-07-2002 15:29 schreef ranil gunawardena op <>: > Is the "contact" in Patichcha Samuppada the same as the "passa" (contact > without any gap with the object of the citta) chethacika? > If so "passa" is with every citta (so contact too). > Dear Ranil, contact accompanies each citta, it supports citta and the accompanying cittas. It contacts the object so that citta and cetasikas can experience it. In the Paticcha Samuppada, contact is highlighted in a particular way: as one of the links leading to continuation of the cycle. Here it is shown how rebirth-consciousness conditions nama and rupa, the cetasikas and rupas, how these condition the six ayatanas, the six bases: the five sense bases and the sixth: mind-base, how the six bases condition contact. Without the six bases there could not be contact which contacts the objects experienced through these bases. Contact conditions feeling, and here it is the feeling that is conascent. Don't we feel differently because of contact which contacts pleasant or unpleasant objects? Feeling conditions craving, and thus the cycle goes on and on. In order to reach the end of the cycle ignorance should be eradicated, ignorance of nama and rupa, ignorance of the four noble Truths. This is in brief, but the Visuddhimagga gives all the details. Ranil, I did not hear enough about Sri Lanka, what were the discussion points that impressed you most? With appreciation, Nina. 14114 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 2, no 2 The Perfections. Ch 2, no. 2. When someone who listens to the Dhamma gains right understanding, he accumulates sincerity, and this is the perfection of truthfulness, sacca pårami. He also accumulates the perfection of determination: he has an unshakeable conviction of his aim, that is, the eradication of defilements. We can evaluate the benefit of listening to the Dhamma at this very moment: have we accumulated more kusala and eliminated akusala? There is another kind of dåna, generosity, and this is abhayadåna, the giving of freedom from danger and fear. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the Eights, Ch IV, §9, Outcomes of Merit, that there are eight outcomes (yields) of merit, which are the going for refuge to the Triple Gem and five gifts 1) . We read about these five gifts: Herein, monks, a noble disciple gives up the taking of life and abstains from it. By abstaining from the taking of life, the noble disciple gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, gives to them freedom from hostility, and freedom from oppression. By giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself will enjoy immeasurable freedom from fear, hostility and oppression... The same is said about the abstaining from stealing, sexual misconduct, wrong speech and intoxicants. Thus, síla can also be considered under the aspect of dåna. Abstaining from deeds that harm others as well as the giving of protection from danger is included in the giving of freedom from fear, abhayadåna. Moreover, also forgiving can be seen as an aspect of the giving of freedom from fear 2). When we forgive someone, we do not give in to ill feelings or revenge. If someone does not know that forgiving is a perfection he will not forgive someone else who has done him wrong. If we do not forgive others how can we attain enlightenment and eradicate defilements? If we consider this it may be a condition for the gift of freedom from fear. This is a way of generosity higher than the giving of material things, åmisa dåna. If we cannot forgive someone we do not like, we cannot develop either other kinds of kusala with regard to this person. If we do not forgive him or if we are still angry with him, we cannot be generous to him, we cannot even give him material things. Neither can we give him the gift of Dhamma, Dhamma dåna, in helping him with Dhamma discussion, or advise him as to what is beneficial in life and what is not beneficial. Footnotes: 1. I inserted this sutta and my additional remarks. I am using the translation of Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel no. 238-240, B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. 2. In Thai to forgive is to give abhåya, freedom from fear or danger. Bhåya is fear or danger, and a is a negation. 14115 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 9:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: … > Jon, > … Well I am interested in any description or commentary in the > Vissudhimagga > which talks about the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, > but also > the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas > themselves. > Anything in those areas would be of great interest to me. I'm not sure > why I > hooked onto the subject of the jhanas when I heard about them sort of > belatedly > last year. I hadn't noticed them before, so it must be a kammic > occurrence for me > to look into something about them. They are so prominent in many > Theravadan > writings and practices and seem to me at least to outline the pathway of > states > that lead to enlightenment in a concretely available way, rather than an > intellectual way. Of course whatever we read about will be intellectual > in a > sense, but I think the subject may 1/ make clear what some of the states > of > consciousness/Right Concentration are in the progression of the path, > and 2/ > perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of > meditation vs. the > role of understanding discernment through sutta. Well, it looks like we have a sort of arrangement! Here is the focus for our look at the Visuddhimagga , culled from your message above: A. Specific areas of interest: 1/ the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, 2/ the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas themselves. B. Associated aspects: 1/ hopefully, make clear what some of the states of consciousness/Right Concentration are in the progression of the path, 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. 3/ find out whether the jhanas can be seen as a states that lead to enlightenment in a concretely available way (rather than an intellectual way) If this sounds OK, I'll start looking out for passages. But don't hold your breath, this will be very much an 'as and when it happens' thing -- I hope that's OK with you. Of course, anyone else is welcome to join in with passages, questions or comments. > I am curious as to why it > interests you as well. If you were to say a word about your interest in > the jhanas, it might also help me clarify my interest a bit more. My interest is in samatha as a form of kusala that was highly praised by the Buddha. Although I have no aspiration to the jhanic states (in this lifetime, at least), I do not see that as precluding (or excusing) a better understanding of the development of samatha. I find there is very little in the suttas on what is actually meant by the development of samatha (samatha bhavana). I would like to know more. I suspect that the generally held idea on this (i.e., go to a quiet place and focus on a chosen meditation subject) seriously misses the mark. How does that sound? (Our mission statements may differ, but I think we have sufficient common ground ;-)). > Anyway, like a dog > who hears a bird, this subject just makes my ears perk up, so anything > you might > find would be of great interest to me. > > Thanks, > Robert Ep. I'm looking forward to it myself! Jon 14116 From: Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Neither of the links you have offered would open for me. Anything that can be done about this? ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:25 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha > Hi again Christine - > > Here are two references I just found: > > http://www.selfknowledge.com/dtat.htm > http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Buddhism/doc > > With metta, > Howard 14117 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 6:51am Subject: ADL ch. 14 (2) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 14 (2) There are fifty-five kinds of citta which can perform the function of javana. Twelve akusala cittas (eight lobha-mula-cittas, two dosa-mula-cittas and two moha-mula-cittas), eight kamavacara kusala cittas, which are called maha-kusala cittas (Kamavacara cittas are cittas which are of the sensuous plane of consciousness, not jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas.), eight maha-kiriyacittas of the arahat (kiriyacittas which are not ahetuka, but accompanied by sobhana hetus). The arahat has maha-kiriyacittas instead of maha-kusala cittas since he does not accumulate any more kamma. Maha-kiriyacittas are of the sensuous plane of consciousness; they are not jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas. Arahats also have kamavacara citta ; they see, hear or think of objects experienced through the senses. However, on account of what is experienced no kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. For the arahat there is also an ahetuka kiriyacitta performing the function of javana, which may arise when he smiles : the hasituppada-citta Those who attain rupa-jhana (fine material jhana) can have five types of rupavacara kusala cittas performing the function of javana, since there are five stages of rupa-jhana. Arahats who attain rupa-jhana can have five types of rupavacara kiriyacittas which perform the function of javana. For those who attain arupa-jhana (immaterial jhana) there can be four types of arupavacara kusala cittas performing the function of javana, since there are four stages of arupa-jhana. Arahats who attain arupa-jhana can have four types of Arupavacara kiriyacittas performing the function of javana. Those who directly experience nibbana have lokuttara cittas. There are eight lokuttara cittas, four of which are magga-cittas ('path-consciousness', 'magga' means path) and four of which are lokuttara vipakacittas, called phala-cittas (' fruit-consciousness', 'phala' means fruit). There are four pairs of lokuttara cittas since there are four stages of enlightenment). Vipakacittas of other levels of consciousness cannot perform the function of javana. Thus, all eight lokuttara cittas perform the function of javana. Summarising the fifty-five cittas which can perform the function of javana. [colectively known as 12 akusala cittas] 8 lobha-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) 2 dosa-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion) 2 moha-mula-citta (citta rooted in ignorance) 8 maha-kusala cittas (kamavacara kusala cittas) 8 maha-kiriyacittas 1 hasituppada-citta (ahetuka kiriyacitta which may arise when the arahat smiles) 5 rupavacara kusala cittas (rupa-jhanacittas) 5 rupavacara kiriyacittas (rupa-jhanacittas of the arahat) 4 arupavacara kusala cittas (arupa-jhanacittas) 4 arupavacara kiriyacittas (arupa-jhanacittas of the arahat) [colectively known as 8 lokuttara cittas] 4 magga-cittas (lokuttara kusala cittas) 4 phala-cittas (lokuttara vipakacittas) 14118 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Sarah, I'm still puzzled and confused about vipaka cittas. Of the different kinds or functions of vipaka cittas, sense consciousness seems to be the only one that we really notice. And if sense consciousness is merely sense consciousness, that seems like a meager, wimpy kamma result. If we have an akusala intention and the only result is sense consciousness, what kind of a deal is that??? Where's the justice? the retribution? the dukkha? the learning? Are there other kamma results of javana cittas beside vipaka cittas? What happened to your wrist? Is it kamma vipaka? Larry 14119 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha Hi, Bhante - > > Neither of the links you have offered would open for me. Anything that can > be done about this? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:25 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana/Tathagatagarbha > > > > Hi again Christine - > > > > Here are two references I just found: > > > > http://www.selfknowledge.com/dtat.htm > > http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Buddhism/doc > > > > With metta, > > Howard > =============================== I just tried them. The second one still does not work, but the first was was fine. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14120 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/2/02 7:28:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Sarah, I'm still puzzled and confused about vipaka cittas. Of the > different kinds or functions of vipaka cittas, sense consciousness seems > to be the only one that we really notice. And if sense consciousness is > merely sense consciousness, that seems like a meager, wimpy kamma > result. If we have an akusala intention and the only result is sense > consciousness, what kind of a deal is that??? Where's the justice? the > retribution? the dukkha? the learning? Are there other kamma results of > javana cittas beside vipaka cittas? > > What happened to your wrist? Is it kamma vipaka? > > Larry > > ========================== If I may butt in with my phenomenalist perspective: What happened to her wrist is all sense consciousness. What is relevant is what Sarah experiences, not some supposed external, objective event/existence independent of experience. The realm of experience we are in and the details of our experience are all either kamma vipaka or the result of actions of others sharing the same realm of experience. Utimately, all our experience flows out of the volitional actions of ourself and of others. That's how I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14121 From: yuzhonghao Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 9:29am Subject: Re: Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) Hi Rob, Jon, and all, > > Well, it looks like we have a sort of arrangement! Here is the focus for > our look at the Visuddhimagga , culled from your message above: > > A. Specific areas of interest: > 1/ the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, I think you might be interested in the discourse http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-044.html > 2/ the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas > themselves. > > B. Associated aspects: > 1/ hopefully, make clear what some of the states of consciousness/Right > Concentration are in the progression of the path, > 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of > meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. > 3/ find out whether the jhanas can be seen as a states that lead to > enlightenment in a concretely available way (rather than an intellectual > way) Regards, Victor 14122 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)) Hi, Victor (and all) - In a message dated 7/2/02 9:30:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > Hi Rob, Jon, and all, > > > > > Well, it looks like we have a sort of arrangement! Here is the > focus for > > our look at the Visuddhimagga , culled from your message above: > > > > A. Specific areas of interest: > > 1/ the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment, > > > > > > I think you might be interested in the discourse > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-044.html > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well *I* certainly find it interesting!! ;-)) [Also, the Anupada (sp?) Sutta describing the approach to complete enlightenment followed by Sariputta, Captain of the Dhamma, is interesting reading, as is, for example, the standard description of the Buddha's own attainment of complete enlightenment via the first 4 jhanas.] ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > 2/ the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas > > themselves. > > > > B. Associated aspects: > > 1/ hopefully, make clear what some of the states of > consciousness/Right > > Concentration are in the progression of the path, > > 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of > > meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta. > > 3/ find out whether the jhanas can be seen as a states that lead to > > enlightenment in a concretely available way (rather than an > intellectual > > way) > > > > Regards, > Victor > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14123 From: sukinderpal Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 10:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Nina, Howard and all, Taking advantage of your invitation for all to butt in Nina,(I like the idea too). However I hope I do not spoil the atmosphere with some uneducated criticism. I too was once attracted to the Goenka retreats, but in my case it was not so much to any result but to the promise of result in the future. At that time I did not know it, but now what I see is that we were supposed to go to learn to observe rise and fall of dhamma (intimations at first, but finally to be able to observe actual dhammas). We were never told about the difference between concepts and realities. Hence we had no idea about the added baggage we took with us to the retreat, about the idea of retreat itself. 1.There was the goal and expectation for it. 2.The planning before with regard to what we leave behind ie. the things we do daily in the conventional world. 3.The going to the retreat and what was to be done the first day, the days in between, and the last day. 4.Noble silence, doing this and this, no doing that and that. 5.Indoctrination ( as far as beginers are concerned, who are ready and willing to accept anything from an authority),with regard sitting posture, sitting time, walking meditation etc. 6.A very strong atta sanna is reinforced and we are never aware of this. We mistake sitting, standing, lying down postures to be in a way, real. 7.Implied that you are not to indulge in entertainment, yet you hear Goenka recite in pali in a singing tone and can get hooked to the pleasant voice. 8.Metta meditation, the idea about its use and the timing( at the end of the retreat). 9.Books by Goenka and his students are sold at the end of the retreat and you are indirectly discouraged to read anyone else. 10.To take all this back into daily life and follow the pattern for the rest of your life! And we were supposed to understand reality from the stand point of our peculiar accumulations. But we end up becoming like automatons. I'm not saying that all are, I'm sure you Howard are not, but I'm just critical about the concept of the retreat itself. I am tempted to conclude that in the scale that all this is done, the number of people being introduced to Buddhism and ultimately coming to have a better understanding of its real purpose is enough to not take note of the others who end up with the wrong understanding of it. But I don't think this is necessarily the case. Those who do come to have the right understanding,( only newly got introduced to buddhism) and who finally come to a more wiser approach are very small (insignificant rather). And I think, had they the seed for right understanding, they would have anyway. All in all I think the effect is in some way similar to some religious sects around which communities are formed, such as the Radhasoamis and the Rajnishis( not this extreme but some resemblance :-)). The only really positive aspect of Goenkas contribution to the Buddhist world that I see, is the translations of the Tipitaka he has undertaken to do. I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I believe that I must have some:). So what do you say Howard? Best wishes, Sukin. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard, Goggy, Shin and all, > Thank you Howard for your patience answering my questions. No need to answer > all, many of my questions are more exclamations! For a long time I was > wondering what motivated people to go to centers for intensive meditation, I > really try to understand them. You described the atmosphere in such a center > by your answers. Goggy explained that some people need a tranquillizer (in > the right sense, by way of samatha), they are so restless and cannot even > think of paramattha dhammas. I really see his point. Is there no other way > to help them? We could speak about their problems, and show them that these > are just dhammas, arising because of conditions, beyond control. We could > speak about paramattha dhammas without mentioning any names, couldn't we? > Another matter is that people are so impressed by the teacher who is so > kind, calm, understanding. But, as A. Sujin often said, it is not the person > who counts, it is the Dhamma and we have to check this *ourselves*. How much > clinging is there to a person? This can blind us. When we have piti and > somanassa (rapture and happy feeling) how much clinging is there? A good > friend is important, but, as A. Sujin said, it is the Dhamma that is your > good friend. It is difficult not to cling to people, whenever we like > someone, find him or her sympathetic, there is already clinging. Anybody who > can help us to have more understanding of the teachings is our good friend. > I had to learn this in the course of years, now I appreciate many good > friends who give me good reminders. Lodewijk said, that it is excellent what > Shin is doing now and I understand her so well. She sees that clinging to a > teacher is no good, that we have to check the teachings ourselves. Lodewijk > reminded me that the Buddha said, take Dhamma as your island, as your > refuge. We then read that this means developing satipatthana. It is > difficult to detect clinging, to persons, to our progress. Lack of progress > may be a motive to go to centers. And then, noticing progress because of > this may be a motive. I am concerned that people may not check this: is this > progress they notice not merely in their thoughts? Does it matter to be able > to notice progress? If it matters to us we may neglect again the dhamma now. > This is very important: how much understanding is there of nama and rupa > now? Are they different from each other? That is the first thing that has to > be known. If we skip the first stage of insight the next ones cannot follow, > and wrong view cannot be eradicated. People want so much to have less lobha, > dosa, and moha, but first wrong view has to be eradicated. Otherwise, no > way. > > Howard's suttas: I select "Living by Dhamma", about the monk who masters > Dhamma, repeats itthinks about it, but neglects to go apart and devotes > himself to calm. Ekiibhaava.m vissajjeti, gives himself to being alone. The > sutta ends with: see these tree roots, meditate. Jhaayathaa. The Buddha > spoke to monks, they should not chat in the villages. Meditate: as discussed > before, this has two meanings, I shall repeat it for those who are new. The > Co. to this sutta explains that the roots of trees means, places which are > free of people. It states: examining closely the object, namely the thirtyeight objects (of samatha) > and examine closely the khandhas, ayatanas, etc. , by seeing them as > impermanent, etc., by realizing the characteristics, lakkhana. He explains > it as develop samatha and vipassana.> > Thus, there are two kinds of jhana: aramanupanijjhaana (contemplation of the > objects of samatha) and lakkhanupanijjhaana (contemplation of the > characteristics of impermanence, etc.) > Before, we discussed that samatha and vipassana are developed both, that > jhana is most difficult and not for everybody, that even those who attain > jhana must also develop vipassana in order to realize enlightenment. > For those who like Pali: > Here is the text about jhaana I referred to some months ago: > Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): > Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi > (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito > (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca > vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati > maapamajjittha (do not be neglectful, do not be slothful). > > The other sutta next time. To conclude, I quote: > As Jon wrote to Lisa, > doubt disagree with me on), even if there is no kusala (and a lot of > akusala), it also matters not. Much more important is to see whatever > appears for what it is. It's good to recognise the true nature of one's > mental state, and ruing one's lack of kusala is just more akusala!> > > It strikes me how different accumulations of different people are. Some, > when reading this may have aversion, but I feel piti and somanassa, I feel > as if Jon hands me a present. Wonderful, I need to be reminded that akusala > does not matter, that it is much more important to see whatever appears for > what it is. I know in theory, but I keep on forgetting. > Best wishes > Nina. > > op 30-06-2002 17:52 schreef Howard op Howard: > (I did not paste all): > As far as what is experienced during formal meditation is concerned, > > well, this is a bit like trying to describe ice cream to those who may have > > tried milk but no dessert. ;-) It really needs to be directly experienced. > > As far as accumulations are concerned, well, it seems to me that we > > can make all sorts of guesses and assumptions about what might or might not > > be our "accumulations", but, in fact, we don't know. I do know that again and > > again the Buddha instructed his followers to find "roots of trees" etc and to > > meditate. I can attest first hand as to the difference in intensity there is > > of concentration, mindfulness, and ease of detailed, direct investigation > > between formal meditation (if pursued with regularity) and a practice of > > moment-to-moment mindfulness during ordinary activity. I strongly recommend > > both.... > > > One more point about retreats: They are helpful from time to time, but > > they are *not* the cornerstone of a practice. The cornerstone is a daily, > > regular practice of one's own. Meditation is always available. The breath, > > sensations, feelings, thoughts, inclinations - all there, always available > > for investigation, both during "ordinary" moments, and, more clearly and > > powerfully, during formal practice. The joy of the Dhamma is enlivened by the > > sustenance obtained from regular, formal practice. The study and the practice > > support each other. Each is impoverished by the absence of the other. > Howard. 14124 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sukin - At the end of this post you write: "I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I believe that I must have some:). So what do you say Howard?" Well, there is not much for me to say. I suppose, as some are accustomed to saying, it must be a matter of "accumulations". My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description rings no bell with me whatsoever. In any case, there is no inclination felt to engage in a debate on this. How you reacted is how you reacted. It's that simple. C'est la vie, and vive la difference! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/2/02 10:37:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Sukin writes: > > Dear Nina, Howard and all, > Taking advantage of your invitation for all to butt in Nina,(I like > the idea too). However I hope I do not spoil the atmosphere with > some uneducated criticism. > I too was once attracted to the Goenka retreats, but in my case it > was not so much to any result but to the promise of result in the > future. > At that time I did not know it, but now what I see is that we were > supposed to go to learn to observe rise and fall of dhamma > (intimations at first, but finally to be able to observe actual > dhammas). We were never told about the difference between concepts > and realities. Hence we had no idea about the added baggage we took > with us to the retreat, about the idea of retreat itself. > > 1.There was the goal and expectation for it. > 2.The planning before with regard to what we leave behind ie. the > things we do daily in the conventional world. > 3.The going to the retreat and what was to be done the first day, > the days in between, and the last day. > 4.Noble silence, doing this and this, no doing that and that. > 5.Indoctrination ( as far as beginers are concerned, who are ready > and willing to accept anything from an authority),with regard > sitting posture, sitting time, walking meditation etc. > 6.A very strong atta sanna is reinforced and we are never aware of > this. We mistake sitting, standing, lying down postures to be > in a way, real. > 7.Implied that you are not to indulge in entertainment, yet you hear > Goenka recite in pali in a singing tone and can get hooked to the > pleasant voice. > 8.Metta meditation, the idea about its use and the timing( at the > end of the retreat). > 9.Books by Goenka and his students are sold at the end of the retreat > and you are indirectly discouraged to read anyone else. > 10.To take all this back into daily life and follow the pattern > for the rest of your life! > > > And we were supposed to understand reality from the stand point of > our peculiar accumulations. But we end up becoming like automatons. > I'm not saying that all are, I'm sure you Howard are not, but I'm > just critical about the concept of the retreat itself. > > I am tempted to conclude that in the scale that all this is done, > the number of people being introduced to Buddhism and ultimately > coming to have a better understanding of its real purpose is enough > to not take note of the others who end up with the wrong > understanding of it. But I don't think this is necessarily the case. > Those who do come to have the right understanding,( only newly got > introduced to buddhism) and who finally come to a more wiser > approach are very small (insignificant rather). And I think, had > they the seed for right understanding, they would have anyway. > All in all I think the effect is in some way similar to some > religious sects around which communities are formed, such as the > Radhasoamis and the Rajnishis( not this extreme but some > resemblance :-)). > The only really positive aspect of Goenkas contribution to the > Buddhist world that I see, is the translations of the Tipitaka he > has undertaken to do. > > I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I > believe that I must have some:). > So what do you say Howard? > > Best wishes, > Sukin. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14125 From: <> Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Howard, I think the problem is that, according to the book (Sarah), there are no inherently undesired results to akusala javana. Maybe there are, however, unpleasant results. I've been reviewing Visuddhimagga and couldn't find anything such as 'this javana citta will produce this vipaka citta'. Sense consciousness just seems like an odd result to me. I wouldn't say that everything is kamma cause or kamma result. Kamma is pretty much an ethical, value based causal mechanism. Even though we can evaluate anything, that doesn't mean that that thing's existence depends on value. Plus there are 23 other conditional relations. On the other hand, kamma is intimately associated with sankhara and everything *is* sankhata. I don't think sakhara is quite the same as phenomenalism. It doesn't make sense to me to say all there is is experience. For one thing, its logic leads in the direction of making consciousness a kind of ultimate medium. If we have to have an ultimate medium, I would favor materiality. Abhidhamma is definitely dualistic, nama and rupa. Even psychologically it's dualistic: consciousness and object of consciousness. To translate the idea "supposed external, objective event/existence independent of experience" into paramattha dhamma lingo would suggest there is nothing outside the bhavanga 'stream'. If there were nothing outside it, nothing could interrupt it. I can see about a million flaws with my logic, but I'll leave it at that. back to you, Larry 14126 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 1:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Howard, Not that I want to take this discusion any further myself but just to clarify one point, You said;"My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description rings no bell with me whatsoever." I was just trying to analyze the situation from the standpoint of my views now, there was absolutely no such understanding at the time I was engaged in the practice. I would have been very much one of the hundreds of thousands who attend these retreats regularly. Had it not been for Rob K. directing me to dsg and K. Sujin I would probably still be a Goenka fan today;-). Best wishes, Sukin. Hi, Sukin - At the end of this post you write: "I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I believe that I must have some:). So what do you say Howard?" Well, there is not much for me to say. I suppose, as some are accustomed to saying, it must be a matter of "accumulations". My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description rings no bell with me whatsoever. In any case, there is no inclination felt to engage in a debate on this. How you reacted is how you reacted. It's that simple. C'est la vie, and vive la difference! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/2/02 10:37:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Sukin writes: > > Dear Nina, Howard and all, > Taking advantage of your invitation for all to butt in Nina,(I like > the idea too). However I hope I do not spoil the atmosphere with > some uneducated criticism. > I too was once attracted to the Goenka retreats, but in my case it > was not so much to any result but to the promise of result in the > future. > At that time I did not know it, but now what I see is that we were > supposed to go to learn to observe rise and fall of dhamma > (intimations at first, but finally to be able to observe actual > dhammas). We were never told about the difference between concepts > and realities. Hence we had no idea about the added baggage we took > with us to the retreat, about the idea of retreat itself. > > 1.There was the goal and expectation for it. > 2.The planning before with regard to what we leave behind ie. the > things we do daily in the conventional world. > 3.The going to the retreat and what was to be done the first day, > the days in between, and the last day. > 4.Noble silence, doing this and this, no doing that and that. > 5.Indoctrination ( as far as beginers are concerned, who are ready > and willing to accept anything from an authority),with regard > sitting posture, sitting time, walking meditation etc. > 6.A very strong atta sanna is reinforced and we are never aware of > this. We mistake sitting, standing, lying down postures to be > in a way, real. > 7.Implied that you are not to indulge in entertainment, yet you hear > Goenka recite in pali in a singing tone and can get hooked to the > pleasant voice. > 8.Metta meditation, the idea about its use and the timing( at the > end of the retreat). > 9.Books by Goenka and his students are sold at the end of the retreat > and you are indirectly discouraged to read anyone else. > 10.To take all this back into daily life and follow the pattern > for the rest of your life! > > > And we were supposed to understand reality from the stand point of > our peculiar accumulations. But we end up becoming like automatons. > I'm not saying that all are, I'm sure you Howard are not, but I'm > just critical about the concept of the retreat itself. > > I am tempted to conclude that in the scale that all this is done, > the number of people being introduced to Buddhism and ultimately > coming to have a better understanding of its real purpose is enough > to not take note of the others who end up with the wrong > understanding of it. But I don't think this is necessarily the case. > Those who do come to have the right understanding,( only newly got > introduced to buddhism) and who finally come to a more wiser > approach are very small (insignificant rather). And I think, had > they the seed for right understanding, they would have anyway. > All in all I think the effect is in some way similar to some > religious sects around which communities are formed, such as the > Radhasoamis and the Rajnishis( not this extreme but some > resemblance :-)). > The only really positive aspect of Goenkas contribution to the > Buddhist world that I see, is the translations of the Tipitaka he > has undertaken to do. > > I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I > believe that I must have some:). > So what do you say Howard? > > Best wishes, > Sukin. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14127 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 7/3/02 1:36:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sukin writes: > Dear Howard, > Not that I want to take this discusion any further myself but just to > clarify one point, > You said;"My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description > rings no > bell with me whatsoever." > I was just trying to analyze the situation from the standpoint of my views > now, there > was absolutely no such understanding at the time I was engaged in the > practice. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. I understand. ------------------------------------------------ > I would have been very much one of the hundreds of thousands who attend > these > retreats regularly. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I am not one if them. I attended exactly one of their retreats, about 4 or 5 years ago. It was one of the most worthwhile things I've ever done, leading to lasting insights and to a significant and life-altering "transfomation" in myself and my attitudes. Yet, I do not find myself emotionally tied to either Mr Goenka or his particular approach to teaching the practice of Dhamma. My respect and appreciation for Goenka and his work are enormous. But my love and adoration are reserved for the Buddha himself, and his Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------- Had it not been for Rob K. directing me to dsg and K. > > Sujin > I would probably still be a Goenka fan today;-). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see. Well, it is wonderful to obtain inspiration and saddha for the Dhamma from all good sources. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Best wishes, > Sukin. > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14128 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 3:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Howard, ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I am not one if them. I attended exactly one of their retreats, about 4 or 5 years ago. It was one of the most worthwhile things I've ever done, leading to lasting insights and to a significant and life-altering "transfomation" in myself and my attitudes. Yet, I do not find myself emotionally tied to either Mr Goenka or his particular approach to teaching the practice of Dhamma. My respect and appreciation for Goenka and his work are enormous. But my love and adoration are reserved for the Buddha himself, and his Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------- Well then is it possible that your experience has to do with your particular accumulations and not so much to do with the retreat?! I wanted to mention but forgot, that I hope that my views did not apply to you, Goggy and Erik, whose understandings I admire a lot and who all I am very fond of. That you fit into the retreat atmosphere and formal meditation as you would fit and feel comfortable in your own home surroundings !!? metta, Sukin. 14129 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 4:00pm Subject: language trap Dear All, Language can be confusing. I think I understand what I read - but everyday usage of words can unknowingly influence how I comprehend the Dhamma. I've begun reading "Conditions: an Outline of the 24 Paccaya" by Nina van Gorkom again. (I started last year but it was a little ambitious for me at that time.) Reading "Conditions" and reflecting on the difficulty I had when I last attempted it, I realised the very word 'condition' was, for me, flavoured by a meaning that distorted my understanding when it was used in the Teachings. "Condition" has two meanings for me in everyday life. One meaning is as a description of a 'permanent' situation - "She lives in a house that is in a terrible conditon, dilapidated, roof leaking and infested with insects.". The second meaning is an action I could choose to do - using a hair- care product "After shampooing, condition hair for a shiny manageable result". These two everyday meanings are strongly impressed upon my mind. I have to give myself a mental shake each time I see the word 'condition' in Dhamma-mode - if I am aware at the time of the 'language trap'. metta, Chris 14130 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 4:13pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Satipanna from the Scriptures Dear Sarah, This is so helpful! >>> Much of the time when we are studying, there is ignorance, attachment to not only what is read or being ‘grasped’, but also to sights, sounds, smells and thoughts while we read. <<< Thanks. Hope you remind us(me), more often about these kind of things. My level of understanding is mostly on the "events" and "situations" level, I fail to see more subtle moments of moha, lobha and dosa. Hope your wrist is OK. I was just trying to use my machine with one hand as well. But in my case it was because i was holding a brownie in one hand :-))), but I quickly and greedily finished it;). metta, Sukin. 14131 From: Howard Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 7/3/02 3:56:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sukin writes: > > Hi, Howard, > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I am not one if them. I attended exactly one of their > retreats, > about 4 or 5 years ago. It was one of the most worthwhile things I've ever > done, leading to lasting insights and to a significant and life-altering > "transfomation" in myself and my attitudes. Yet, I do not find myself > emotionally tied to either Mr Goenka or his particular approach to teaching > the practice of Dhamma. My respect and appreciation for Goenka and his work > are enormous. But my love and adoration are reserved for the Buddha > himself, > and his Dhamma. > -------------------------------------------------- > > Well then is it possible that your experience has to do with your > particular > accumulations and not so much to do with the retreat?! > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly my own characteristics are critical conditions in how I respond to any situation/environment, and I have no doubt that what might be useful for me might not be so for another. That is, of course, common sense. My personal evaluation of the quality of the retreat, however, remains the highest. ---------------------------------------------------- I wanted to mention> > but forgot, that I hope that my views did not apply to you, Goggy and Erik, > whose understandings I admire a lot and who all I am very fond of. That you > fit into the retreat atmosphere and formal meditation as you would fit and > feel comfortable in your own home surroundings !!? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The environments are quite different, but both seem to be fine for me. (Thanks for the kind words, BTW - the same to you.) ----------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Sukin. > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14132 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 9:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Friends, I took two course from Mr. Goenka back in 1975 I believe. They changed my life and I still continue to be influenced by them. Until then I was searching for a way to go in and observe what was happening. Mr. Goenka exposed me to the technique and process and I am very grateful to him for sharing the teaching. He also said, "develop awareness and develop wisdom." It was a kind of mantra for me. As I was young and new to the Dhamma I had little understanding coming from the west what that meant. I am older now but still feel I have little understanding of the Dhamma. I continue to embrace this teaching and am still open to it's meaning. This 'mantra' has even brought me to dsg. If I understand this correctly now awareness and wisdom just develop it has nothing to do with 'I'.??? I appreciate that Mr. Goenka said to observe without any judgement, identification and not to label what is being observed. Over time without adding to what is being observed words, ideas, concepts begin to fade. Of course, I observed and still observe words, ideas, concepts as they arise and at times can glimpse the emptiness of what they are and that they are not self. At times moments or gaps can be observed when there is no thinking / thoughts. When thoughts arise they can appear like faint whispers. Maybe this is due to not feeding the stories that arise or perhaps the space can be observed because of a slowing down of input. Again here I am probably deluded - any ideas about this???? I'm sure that much delusion must be mixed in with what 'I think-I am observing'. I continue with sitting practice - yes, I have some attachement to it somedays. When I see this I just observe without any judgement - when the judgement arises I just observe. I actually enjoy having a chunk of my day where I can retreat to the meditation room and just do nothing. This is easier said than done. I used to think that meditation was something that 'I did' and now I think it is a way of being or allowing what is to be present. I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who post such interesting and thought provoking posts. I am learning alot as I work my way through all the posts. With metta, Shakti Sukinder wrote: Dear Howard, Not that I want to take this discusion any further myself but just to clarify one point, You said;"My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description rings no bell with me whatsoever." I was just trying to analyze the situation from the standpoint of my views now, there was absolutely no such understanding at the time I was engaged in the practice. I would have been very much one of the hundreds of thousands who attend these retreats regularly. Had it not been for Rob K. directing me to dsg and K. Sujin I would probably still be a Goenka fan today;-). Best wishes, Sukin. Hi, Sukin - At the end of this post you write: "I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I believe that I must have some:). So what do you say Howard?" Well, there is not much for me to say. I suppose, as some are accustomed to saying, it must be a matter of "accumulations". My experience was not remotely like yours, and your description rings no bell with me whatsoever. In any case, there is no inclination felt to engage in a debate on this. How you reacted is how you reacted. It's that simple. C'est la vie, and vive la difference! ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/2/02 10:37:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Sukin writes: > > Dear Nina, Howard and all, > Taking advantage of your invitation for all to butt in Nina,(I like > the idea too). However I hope I do not spoil the atmosphere with > some uneducated criticism. > I too was once attracted to the Goenka retreats, but in my case it > was not so much to any result but to the promise of result in the > future. > At that time I did not know it, but now what I see is that we were > supposed to go to learn to observe rise and fall of dhamma > (intimations at first, but finally to be able to observe actual > dhammas). We were never told about the difference between concepts > and realities. Hence we had no idea about the added baggage we took > with us to the retreat, about the idea of retreat itself. > > 1.There was the goal and expectation for it. > 2.The planning before with regard to what we leave behind ie. the > things we do daily in the conventional world. > 3.The going to the retreat and what was to be done the first day, > the days in between, and the last day. > 4.Noble silence, doing this and this, no doing that and that. > 5.Indoctrination ( as far as beginers are concerned, who are ready > and willing to accept anything from an authority),with regard > sitting posture, sitting time, walking meditation etc. > 6.A very strong atta sanna is reinforced and we are never aware of > this. We mistake sitting, standing, lying down postures to be > in a way, real. > 7.Implied that you are not to indulge in entertainment, yet you hear > Goenka recite in pali in a singing tone and can get hooked to the > pleasant voice. > 8.Metta meditation, the idea about its use and the timing( at the > end of the retreat). > 9.Books by Goenka and his students are sold at the end of the retreat > and you are indirectly discouraged to read anyone else. > 10.To take all this back into daily life and follow the pattern > for the rest of your life! > > > And we were supposed to understand reality from the stand point of > our peculiar accumulations. But we end up becoming like automatons. > I'm not saying that all are, I'm sure you Howard are not, but I'm > just critical about the concept of the retreat itself. > > I am tempted to conclude that in the scale that all this is done, > the number of people being introduced to Buddhism and ultimately > coming to have a better understanding of its real purpose is enough > to not take note of the others who end up with the wrong > understanding of it. But I don't think this is necessarily the case. > Those who do come to have the right understanding,( only newly got > introduced to buddhism) and who finally come to a more wiser > approach are very small (insignificant rather). And I think, had > they the seed for right understanding, they would have anyway. > All in all I think the effect is in some way similar to some > religious sects around which communities are formed, such as the > Radhasoamis and the Rajnishis( not this extreme but some > resemblance :-)). > The only really positive aspect of Goenkas contribution to the > Buddhist world that I see, is the translations of the Tipitaka he > has undertaken to do. > > I can see Howard is going to point out some misunderstanding and I > believe that I must have some:). > So what do you say Howard? > > Best wishes, > Sukin. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14133 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 10:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness (was, ADL ch. 13 (1)) Goggy --- goglerr wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > In a message dated 7/1/02 3:27:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Jon writes: > > > > > I think you are saying that because the citta and its object > changes very rapidly, awareness cannot keep up with it. (This > perhaps forms the basis of the attraction to the 'slowing down' > approach.) > > G: I didn't mean the 'slowing down' approach from this aspect. I was > only refering to bodily movement (of course, on certain time!) Thanks for this clarification, and my apologies if I misunderstood you. > > > As I see it, there is no need for awareness to 'keep up with' the > changing object. We agree that the goal is awareness of different > realities, each to be known as it is. To my understanding, though, > this does not mean awareness of all realities all the time, nor does > it mean awareness of but a single moment of a dhamma (these would be > things that only the likes of a Buddha could accomplish). Nor does > it mean necessarily awareness of different dhammas successively. > > > > If there are moments of awareness of a single dhamma, then it > doesn't matter whether these are in isolation or are part of other > moments of awareness. > _________________________________________________________ > G: Of course in our daily life, we cannot have sati to be the all the > time. As u said , and I agree, that there are isolated moments of > sati. And I personally too, try to mindful throughout day, and as I > experience isolated moments and I find that it's wonderful and have > much benefit. Didn't the Buddha said that sati is helpful everywhere? > > I see it that we are looking at different aspect and different > emphasis. On my sharing, I was focusing on 'formal meditation' - as > in 'formal sitting and walking'. I do them to whenever I have the > time, and I find that a succesion, a continouity of sati, for a > period of time, more profound and clearer dhamma are presented. I not > trying to compare with biasness but a matter of explanation and > understanding. They are from my personal experience that I share. Thanks for your sharing. I didn't mean to be critical of any aspect of your practice. I was simply trying to raise for general discussion some considerations about awareness and understanding, such as what awareness is, how it functions, how it manifests. I think this is useful, indeed necessary, in order to help clarify our ideas about the practice, some of which we may not have vocalised before (I quite often find this the case myself). I have no particular interest in anyone else's practice. What I'm interested in is discussing and analysing the texts to find out more about the true meaning of the words spoken by the Buddha, what might be called 'the theory of practice', so that one's practice has a proper theoretical basis. Please feel free to share some more with us anytime. Jon 14134 From: Num Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 7:03pm Subject: Patisambhidamagga 1 Dear Nina, Sarah and all. I am somewhat busy with my new job, new place and also getting used to Thai system. I went to the Foundation last week. It was a very nice experience. Meeting a lot of eager to learn and knowledgeable persons is a very nice feeling. I will try to make a brief note from the Patisambhidamagga(PTSM) session each week. Usully it goes around 5-10 pages a week. Any feedback or questions pls let me know. I can try to ask A.Supee. I may not have time to respond to all questions. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Let me give some introduction to PTSM. PTSM is one of the book in kuddhakanikaya, suttantapitaka. It's a discourse given by Ven. Sariputta. The contents of PTSM are about intricate detail of panna and nnana. Pati= specified, sam= well, bhida= panna which is well discriminated, magga=path. Patisambhidamagga = a clear comprehension and well-discriminated wisdom (panna) for each path. The panna in this level refers only to the wisdom of an ariya-person. There are 4 differences well-discriminated wisdoms (patisambhida): 1) Attha-patisambhida : a discriminating panna (a clear comprehension) in knowing dhammas , which are consequences or results(pala). 2) Dhamma-patisambhida: a discriminating panna in knowing dhammas, whicht are causes (hetu). 3) Nirutti-patisambhida: linguistic wisdom: a discriminating panna in knowing the meaning of words, and using of languages to call or explain dhamma. 4) Patibhanna-patisambhida: a well-rounded nnana in all 3 patisambhidas. In summary: Attha (pala) refers to 5 dhammas: 1.condtioned dhamma 2. Nibbana 3.Commentary 4. Vipakacitta, and 5. Kiriyacitta. Dhamma is contidion. Dhamma (hetu) refers to 1. causes which will bring consequences 2.ariyamagga 3. The discourse of the Buddha 4. Kusalacitta, and 5. Akusalacitta. The commentary of PTSM is Saddhammapakasini. In Thai tipitaka with commentary version, PTSM is book # 68&69 from the set of 91 books. There are matika and 3 kathas in PTSM. Book # 68/91 has 8 pages of matika and 1160 pages of commentary. The matika gives a list of 73 different level of nnana. The commentary has detail from various suttas and abhidhamma for each nnana. Book #69/91 consists of the 3 vaggas: mahavagga, yuganadthavagga (pairing dhamma which is smatha and vipassana), and pannavagga. (to be cont'.) Num 14135 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 11:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Victor and Howard Victor, thanks for this reference. This sutta is one of many that talk about the development of the path by one who has attained or is developing the jhanas (as are all the suttas in this particular section, Nos. 42-61 in my PTS edition). However, nothing here supports the idea that the attainment of the mundane jhanas is a *necesary prerequisite* for enlightenment, as I read it. Howard, likewise with the descriptions of attainment by the Buddha, Sariputta and many other eminent disciples. The fact that for these worthies tranquility and insight were joined together does not make one a requirement for the other -- it just shows that enlightenment *may* be based on/joined together with tranquility (see A. IV, 170 at p.114 of Numerical Discourses of the Buddha). I'd be interested to know how you see the many lay followers who attained various stages of enlightenment, for example, Upali (Upali Sutta, M. 56, p.477 of MLDB, at p.485). Jon --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Victor (and all) - > > In a message dated 7/2/02 9:30:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Victor writes: ... > > I think you might be interested in the discourse > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-044.html > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well *I* certainly find it interesting!! ;-)) [Also, the Anupada > (sp?) > Sutta describing the approach to complete enlightenment followed by > Sariputta, Captain of the Dhamma, is interesting reading, as is, for > example, > the standard description of the Buddha's own attainment of complete > enlightenment via the first 4 jhanas.] > ---------------------------------------------------- 14136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections , reminders Sarah Dear Sarah, I appreciated so much your good reminders interspersed with the quotes on Perfections. Nina op 02-07-2002 11:03 schreef sarahdhhk op <>: > > "Giving is stated at the beginning: (a) because it is common to > all beings, since even ordinary people practise giving; (b) > because it is the least fruitful; and (c) because it is the easiest to > practise." > ***** > Hmm, `..easiest to practise'. Pause for thought: how many > opportunities do we pass up in a day for giving of one kind or > another, even though we know life is so very short (in theory)? If > this is the easiest, no wonder the other paramis don't come > easily... > > What I've really been reflecting on is the characteristic of dana > (generosity) as being without attachment or expectation. We read > in the same text: > 14137 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 1:15am Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no. 3 Perfections, Ch 2, no. 3 The gift of freedom from fear is the condition for the perfection of morality, síla påramí, to develop; it is the condition for abstinence from wrong action and speech. If we do not forgive someone else, our conduct will not be that of a friend and thus kusala cannot develop. How could we then cross over to the other shore, namely, the eradication of defilements? This shows us that our consideration of the nature of kusala in daily life should be very refined. A person who develops paññå that is able to realize the four noble Truths, should know the nature of his citta; he should know when he is mentally ill and has no moral strength. If that is the case, how could he travel the extremely long road that is the eightfold Path? He should consider the nature of his citta, so that he can gain strength of citta by means of the perfections. He may know that the Path is satipaììhåna, the development of understanding of the characterstics of realities, but sati does not arise if the perfections are not strong enough for the realization of the four noble Truths. We all should develop the ten perfections with paññå, also when we practise generosity in our daily life. We should know the truth, we should know the difference between giving without panñå and giving with paññå, such as in the case of the Bodhisatta who gave with paññå. In this way we can consider and understand the perfection of truthfulness, sincerity for kusala, so that we can follow in the the footsteps of the Bodhisatta who developed the perfections during each life. He did not develop in one life just the perfection of morality, and in another life just the perfection of renunciation, but he developed all ten perfections, without exception, during each life. Now I shall deal with generosity that goes together with sincerity, with the perfection of truthfulness, and in this context we should reflect on the generosity of the Bodhisatta. The ³Paramattha Dípaní, the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² (Cariyåpitaka, of the Khuddhaka Nikåya) explains about three kinds of dåna pårami, perfection of generosity: the giving of material things (åmisadåna), the giving of fearlessness (abhayadåna) and the giving of the Dhamma (dhammadåna). We read about the giving of external objects: When the Great Man gives an external object, he gives whatever is needed to whom ever stands in need of it; and knowing by himself that someone is in need of something, he gives it even unasked, much more when asked. A person who is ready to give something useful to someone else when he sees that he is in need, has a refined understanding of the performance of kusala. As soon as he has seen that another person is in need of something, the citta accompanied by compassion arises, and he gives immediately, he does not wait to be asked. 14138 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 4:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Howard, Jon, and all, Thank you, Howard, for the reference. I don't want to argue with you, Jon, whether the attainment of jhanas is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. Right concentration is part of Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha pointed out the Path, and it is really up to us to follow it. Jon, instead of trying to prove or figure out whether attainment of jhana is necessary for enlightenment, I think it would be more beneficial to follow the Buddha's instruction to develop right concentration, along with other factors in the Path. You might be interested in the following discourses http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html Regards, Victor --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor and Howard > > Victor, thanks for this reference. > > This sutta is one of many that talk about the development of the path by > one who has attained or is developing the jhanas (as are all the suttas in > this particular section, Nos. 42-61 in my PTS edition). > > However, nothing here supports the idea that the attainment of the mundane > jhanas is a *necesary prerequisite* for enlightenment, as I read it. > > Howard, likewise with the descriptions of attainment by the Buddha, > Sariputta and many other eminent disciples. > > The fact that for these worthies tranquility and insight were joined > together does not make one a requirement for the other -- it just shows > that enlightenment *may* be based on/joined together with tranquility (see > A. IV, 170 at p.114 of Numerical Discourses of the Buddha). > > I'd be interested to know how you see the many lay followers who attained > various stages of enlightenment, for example, Upali (Upali Sutta, M. 56, > p.477 of MLDB, at p.485). > > Jon 14139 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi, Victor - In a message dated 7/3/02 4:37:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Victor writes: > > Howard, Jon, and all, > > Thank you, Howard, for the reference. > > I don't want to argue with you, Jon, whether the attainment of jhanas > is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment. Right concentration > is part of Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha pointed out the Path, > and it is really up to us to follow it. Jon, instead of trying to > prove or figure out whether attainment of jhana is necessary for > enlightenment, I think it would be more beneficial to follow the > Buddha's instruction to develop right concentration, along with other > factors in the Path. > > You might be interested in the following discourses > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html > > Regards, > Victor > ============================ I think your reply is very reasonable, Victor. That is to say, I agree! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14140 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what is discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara Nikaya (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). Diagramatically, what is said there is the following: Sense control -> Virtue -> Right concentration -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite pivotal. That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14141 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 7:20am Subject: ADL ch. 14 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 14 (3) It is useful to know that when akusala cittas arise on account of an object, there arise not just one, but seven akusala cittas in one process and this process of cittas can be followed by other processes with akusala javana-cittas. Each time we dislike something there are processes of cittas which experience the object, and in each of these processes there are seven akusala javana-cittas. Many akusala cittas may arise on account of something we dislike or are attached to. There is no self who can prevent akusala cittas from arising; when they arise in the sense-door process the votthapana-citta has determined the object already, and when they arise in the mind-door process the mano-dvaravajjana-citta has adverted to the object already. When the first javana-citta has arisen it has to be succeeded by the following javana-cittas. The first javana-citta conditions the second one and this again the following one; the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth javana-cittas are the same. Processes with kusala javana-cittas and processes with akusala javana-cittas can arise shortly one after the other. For instance, people have the intention to offer food to the monks. However, when one has bought the ingredients for the food one is going to offer, one may find the cost rather high. At that moment there may be cittas with stinginess and then the javana-cittas are akusala cittas. Thus we see that accumulated defilement can appear at any time when there are conditions, even if one has the intention to do a good deed. It is during the time of the javana-cittas that we accumulate wholesomeness or unwholesomeness. It is not possible to control javana-cittas, but knowing the conditions for wholesomeness will help us to have fewer akusala cittas. The Buddha, out of compassion, taught people the way to have less akusala. He encouraged them to perform all kinds of kusala, no matter whether it is dana (generosity) sila (morality) or bhavana (mental development). He taught the development of the wisdom which can eradicate all kinds of akusala. There are different degrees of panna. If panna merely knows what is kusala and what is akusala, it is not of the degree that it can eradicate akusala. When panna has not been developed to the degree of 'insight-wisdom', there is still a concept of self who cultivates wholesomeness and abstains from ill deeds. When there is the concept of self, defilements cannot be eradicated. The person who is not an ariyan may be able to observe the five precepts, but there is a difference between him and the ariyan who observes them. The non-ariyan may transgress them when there are conditions for it while for the ariyan there aren't any more conditions for transgressing them. Moreover, the ariyan who observes sila does not take the observing of sila for self any more, since he has eradicated the latent tendency towards wrong view. Thus his sila is purer. He is on the way leading to the eradication of all defilements. 14142 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 10:57am Subject: vipakacitta and its object Hi all, the following is taken from A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. The reason for hashing this out is to facilitate distinguishing between kamma result and kamma cause. At the end, I will have a question. Guide to par. 17, ch. IV: Sense objects are distinguished into three classes: the undesirable (anittha), the moderately desirable (ittha, also called itthamajjhatta, desirable-neutral), and the extremely desirable (ati-ittha). While the desirable object is thus subdivided into two, all undesirable objects are comprised within a single class called simply "the undesirable." According to the Abhidhamma philosophy, this distinction in the quality of objects pertains to the intrinsic nature of the object itself; it is not a variable determined by the individual temperment and preferences of the experiencer. The Sammohavinodani, the commentary to the Vibhanga, contends that when a person considers a desirable object to be undesirable, or an undesirable object to be desirable, he does so due to a perversion of perception (sannavipallasa). The object itself, however, remains inherently desirable or undesirable independently of the person's personal preferences. The Sammohavinodani states that the distinction between the intrinsically desirable and undesirable obtains by way of the average being (majjhima-satta): "It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants." Whether on a given occasion one experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is governed by one's past kamma. Thus the object experienced provides the opportunity for kamma to ripen in the form of resultant states of consciousness (vipakacitta). The resultant cittas accord with the nature of the object spontaneously, without deliberation, just as a facial reflection in a mirror accords with the features of the face. Through the force of unwholesome kamma one encounters an undesirable object, and thus the resultant cittas in the cognitive process by which that object is cognized will be generated by the maturation of that unwholesome kamma. In this case the sense consciousness, reception, investigation, and registration cittas are necessarily unwholesome-resultants (akusalavipaka). The accompanying feeling is always equanimity (upekkha), except in the case of body-consciousness, which is accompanied by pain. Conversely, a desirable-neutral or a very desirable object is encountered through the force of wholesome kamma, and the resultant cittas in the cognitive process will be generated by the maturation of that wholesome kamma. In this case the same four resultant positions will be occupied by wholesome-resultants (kusalavipaka). These cittas will generally be accompanied by equanimity,except that body-consciousness is accompanied by pleasure and, in the experience of an extremely desirable object, investigation and registration are accompanied by joy. L: So, it seems I erred in thinking the object is not resultant. If I am reading this correctly, vipaka cittas are resultant in name only; that is to say, because of having a resultant object (though javana has the same object but it initiates a new kamma process) and also as a completion or 'maturation' of a particular kamma. The true result of kamma is the object. It isn't clear when sannavipallasa enters the picture, but that complication aside, I was wondering how we distinguish between anittha (undesirable) and dosa (aversion). This seems to be the key to distinguishing between vipaka citta and javana citta. Are there any etymological clues? Also there doesn't seem to be much discussion of feeling (vedana) in citta process but there is lots of feeling in experience. When does feeling come into the picture? thanks, Larry 14143 From: <> Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (3) Hi guys, would it be correct to say thinking is always javana and never vipaka? thanks, Larry 14144 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Larry & All, <> wrote: > Hi Sarah, I'm still puzzled and confused about vipaka cittas. Of the > different kinds or functions of vipaka cittas, sense consciousness seems > to be the only one that we really notice. And if sense consciousness is > merely sense consciousness, that seems like a meager, wimpy kamma > result. If we have an akusala intention and the only result is sense > consciousness, what kind of a deal is that??? Where's the justice? the > retribution? the dukkha? the learning? Are there other kamma results of > javana cittas beside vipaka cittas? > > What happened to your wrist? Is it kamma vipaka? ..... Good questions. I don’t pretend to know any of the answers. I’ll just try to share a little more that I find helpful and also try to use the wrist sprain example for a little abhidhamma revision..hmm.. First of all, rupas in the body are also conditioned by kamma and I agree that sesnse consciousness is the most obvious of the vipaka cittas. If there was no seeing or hearing for even a few minutes, you might not think of these as ‘meager and wimpy’ results. Also, I think that by failing to be aware of them and of the clinging to the objects seen and heard, we fail to appreciate and learn about the inherent dukkha in all moments of consciousness including these. From Nina’s ‘Conditions’, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ we read: “Kamma is actually cetanå cetasika, volition. Cetanå arises with each citta and it can therefore be kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. Cetanå directs the associated dhammas and coordinates their tasks (Atthasåliní, Book I, Part IV, Ch I, 111). Cetanå which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta has a double function: it directs the tasks of the associated dhammas and it has the function of "willing" or activity in good and bad deeds. In this last function it is capable to produce the results of good and bad deeds later on....... The cetanå, volition or intention, which motivates a good or bad deed falls away, but since each citta conditions the next one in the cycle of birth and death, the force of cetanå is accumulated from moment to moment so that it can produce result later on. It conditions the result in the form of vipåkacitta and specific rúpas of the body by way of asynchronous kamma-condition.” ***** In ‘Guide to Conditional Relations’,by U Narada (PTS) I’m reading that there are 33 volitions associated with ‘faultless and faulty consciousnesses’ and with these its function is ‘to leave behind a force, like the seed or germ, which will produce resultant mental aggregates and kamma-produced matter in the future. We read that this force is present like the latent tendencies. “And just as the latter are not concepts, so also this special force of asynchronous kamma condition is not a concept. It is a special force of the ultimate realities.” It gives the example of someone who borrows money. The act is completed as soon as the money is borrowed, but their remains a debt to be repaid, either in instalments or in a lump sum. Only when it has been fully repaid is the responsibility removed. Kamma works in a similar way and as we know there are many other conditions and factors at work determining when and how the debt is paid. ..... Both Nina’s ‘Conditions’ and Nyantiloka’s Buddhist dictionary (under ‘karma’): http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html give very helpful summaries and details about the ripening of kamma, different kinds of kamma and so on. These have also been discussed on DSG and you may like to look at the Useful Posts under ‘kamma and vipaka’ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links ..... I think you mentioned in another post that you hadn’t seen reference to the sense cittas (consciousness) resulting from kamma (cetana arising with kusala or akusala cittas in the javana process) in the texts. I’ve just pulled out the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS). The abhidhamma texts and commentaries, like this one, go into a lot of precise detail, but let me just quote a very little (p.184): “In the description of the clause “with formations as condition consciousness”, as regards cakkhuvinnanam (“eye-consciousness”) and so on, eye-consciousness is twofold, namely, profitable resultant and unprofitable resultant. Likewise ear-........ 'Here it may be (asked) ‘But how is it to be known that this consciousness of the kind stated has formations as its condition?” Because there is no kamma-result when there is no stored-up kamma. For this (consciousness) is a kamma-result and kamma-result does not arise in the absence of stored-up kamma. If it did, then all kinds of kamma-resultant would arise for all (kinds of beings); and they do not (so) arise. Thus should it be known that this consciousness has formations as its conditions.” ***** It then adds details of exactly which cittas are kusala vipaka and which are akusala vipaka. Later in the text (p.235) there is an interesting passage about accumulations, formations, kamma and the details of the javana process. (I’ll quote it another time perhaps, as I’m already pushing my luck with the wrist). Talking of the sprained wrist, let’s see if I can use it for a little revision: Through the body sense consciousness (kusala or akusala vipaka citta, result of kusala or akusala kamma), only temperature (i.e heat or cold), solidity (i.e hardness or softness) and wind (i.e. motion or pressure) are experienced. When the rupa contacts the body-sense (anywhere on the body), the body feeling is either painful or pleasant (no indifferent bodily feeling if you remember). So when it is painful or unpleasant, the citta and accompanying cetasikas are akusala vipaka. These feelings are different from the mental pleasant and unpleasant feelings accompanying lobha and dosa (in the javana process), but usually there is no sati and no distinguishing the dosa and its accompanying unpleasant feeling from the bodily feelings. An arahant still experiences bodily unpleasant feelings, but not the unpleasant mental feelings, although they are both namas. Earlier in ADL we read the passage about the splinter and how the Buddha felt the acute pain in the body but was not perturbed: “...Now at that time his foot was injured by a splinter. Sorely indeed did the Exalted One feel it, grievous the pains he suffered in the body, keen and sharp, acute, distressing and unwelcome. He truly bore them, mindful and deliberate, nor was he cast down...” (SN, 1, Sagatha-vagga, 11, The splinter) ***** Anyway, in my case, there have been some painful bodily feelings (result of kamma) from time to time, conditioned by the experience of various rupas. Often these experiences are a condition for dosa with unpleasant feeling, but not to a degree to commit any harsh speech or action. More noticable at times, however, is the thinking, the proliferations and stories about how it happened, remedies and so on. In other words, so often there is one brief moment of unpleasant bodily experience, followed by many moments of aversion and story-building on its account. Occasionally there may be awareness of the feeling or the rupa or the thinking and then there is no story. ..... Nina writes in ‘Conditions’: “ Throughout life kamma produces vipåkacittas arising in processes of cittas which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects. Seeing, for example, is vipåkacitta which experiences a pleasant or unpleasant visible object through the eyesense. It merely sees, it does not know whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas condition one another by way of vipåka-condition, they assist one another in "effortless quiet". The succeeding receiving-consciousness, sampaìicchana-citta , is also vipåkacitta, and this is succeeded by another vipåkacitta, the investigating-consciousness, santíraùa-citta. This is succeeded by the determining-consciousness, the votthapana-citta, which is a kiriyacitta. After that the javana-cittas arise which are, in the case of non-arahats, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When the object is pleasant, lobha-múla-cittas are likely to arise and when the object is unpleasant, dosa-múla-cittas are likely to arise. There are seven javana-cittas arising, succeeding one another. Cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another very rapidly and when paññå has not been developed we do not realize when there is vipåkacitta and when there is kusala citta or akusala citta. When we have an unpleasant experience such as an accident we keep on thinking of the concept of a situation or of an event we consider as "our vipåka" and we may wonder why this had to happen to us. We tend to forget that vipåkacitta is only one moment which falls away immediately....” ***** You ask about the justice. We have no idea which kamma will produce a result at which time, It depends on many factors and conditions. Only the Buddhas have full knowledge of the 'succession of kamma and its result in the twelve classes of kamma' and this 'knowledge is not shared by his disciples'. (Vism XIX, 17). In the Atthasalini (The Expositor PTS) p.88, we read a lot of detail about the diversity of the mind and its effects: “..beings have kamma as their property, they are its heirs, are originated by it, are its kin, are sheltered by it. Kamma divides beings into low and exalted. By this capacity to produce a diversity of effects (in destiny) in a manner detailed above is the diversity of the mind to be understood. For all variations are done by the mind only.” ***** It’s not necessary to know the details but when the vipassana nana which clearly understands kamma and result is realized, there is no more doubt aboutkamma and vipaka or about whether any self is involved: “there is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deed’s result; ....... ‘there is no kamma in result Nor does result exist in kamma; Though they are void of one another, There is no fruit without the kamma. ...... Phenomena alone flow on - Cause and componednt their condition” (Vism XIX,20) ***** Larry, I don’t feel qualified to really say much on this subject, but I’ve had fun pulling out all these texts and my wrist is doing better with the mouse out of its reach and with all these opportunities for wise reflection;-) Sarah ======= 14145 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 4:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Dear Howard, Victor and Jon, Hope I do not come in anyones way with my uninformed view points and guesses about a matter already much discussed by more knowledgable people than myself. I know nobody here would mind, so I will speak: Concentration, being a universal mental factor can have anything as object. In the javana process the object will be apprehended with or without sati and panna. This depends amongst other factors, upon our accumulated rt. view. To train the mind to fix upon an object if it does not happen effortlessly involves the risk of accumulating ignorance of sense impressions which would arise in other doorways(thanks to Sarah for this reminder -- I hope I've understood you rightly, Sarah!?) And if there is no sati and panna then it is wrong concentration. My guess is that in the Samahi Sutta which Victor just posted, the listeners already had a fairly high experience of satipatthana such that they could see what was going on at the moment. They didn't have to make a special effort to 'focus' on any particular ayatana- I don't think this is possible just based on theoretical knowledge alone. For them, at the moment of satipatthana, Buddhas advice to 'concentrate' simply would condition a deeper observation of the reality appearing now. In Howard's example below, what I understand is at the moment when there is sense control ( arisen by conditions), at that moment then there is an abstinence from breaking a precept. If the accumulations are favourable, this would lead to rt. concentration, and again if panna is strong, to the other parts. Whether all of this arises in just a flash or successively I am not sure at all. However, I see no room that it can be 'trained' to achieve, since panna has to be there from the very beginning. If our understanding of sila and sense control is weak, I don't think this can lead to rt.concentration. And I don't think concentration of the samma kind can be had simply by trying to control the senses and keeping strict sila. This can be done with little or no understanding. Lastly, satipatthana being the one and only way to the understanding of nama and rupa, even a jhana expert must first have had moments of satipatthana if he were to understand reality. My personal view is that jhana is not a tool for the understanding of nama and rupa. Even jhanacittas must be seen for what it is, namely anicca, dukkha and anatta. Just rambling, quite sure that I must have expressed some wrong understanding in there. Will wait and see. metta, Sukin. Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what is discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara Nikaya (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). Diagramatically, what is said there is the following: Sense control -> Virtue -> Right concentration -> Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> Revulsion and dispassion -> Knowledge and vision of liberation. The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite pivotal. That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14146 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 4:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Shakti, I wasn’t going to join in the ‘Goenka corner’, but after seeing the date in your post I can’t resist;-) ..... --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > Dear Friends, > I took two course from Mr. Goenka back in 1975 I believe. ..... “Snap”......same for me and now you have to indulge a little nostalgia (Rob Ep, you’re my excuse as you always encourage the India Tales;-)) Hyderabad, June (?), 1975. I was on my way from Macleod Ganj, Dharmsala to Sri Lanka to become a nun and live in a forest temple. The train journey (3rd class) was around 100 hours and anyone who has travelled long distance, 3rd class in India, especially any female with long blond hair recovering from hepatitis, will appreciate why 10 days with Mr Goenka in Hyderabad en route would seem like a real retreat of peace & quiet. There was no hardship at all in foregoing a telephone, quiet reading opportunities, a bed, a private shower, fancy food or any other luxuries. I’d had none of these for a year already. Personal computers were unimaginable. ..... >They changed > my life and I still continue to be influenced by them. Until then I was > searching for a way to go in and observe what was happening. Mr. Goenka > exposed me to the technique and process and I am very grateful to him > for sharing the teaching. He also said, "develop awareness and develop > wisdom." It was a kind of mantra for me. ..... I had already spent 6 months with Munindra in B.Gaya, following the Mahasi style practice and discussing and reading dhamma to a limited extent with him. I had also met Mr Goenka with Munindra and so there were few surprises. I was curious about the retreat nonetheless and as I said, it was a welcome respite from rail travel. ..... > As I was young and new to the Dhamma I had little understanding coming > from the west what that meant. I am older now but still feel I have > little understanding of the Dhamma. I continue to embrace this teaching > and am still open to it's meaning. This 'mantra' has even brought me to > dsg. If I understand this correctly now awareness and wisdom just > develop it has nothing to do with 'I'.??? ..... Right. Where or what is this ‘I’??? ..... > I appreciate that Mr. Goenka said to observe without any judgement, > identification and not to label what is being observed. Over time > without adding to what is being observed words, ideas, concepts begin to > fade. Of course, I observed and still observe words, ideas, concepts as > they arise and at times can glimpse the emptiness of what they are and > that they are not self. At times moments or gaps can be observed when > there is no thinking / thoughts. When thoughts arise they can appear > like faint whispers. Maybe this is due to not feeding the stories that > arise or perhaps the space can be observed because of a slowing down of > input. Again here I am probably deluded - any ideas about this???? ..... Sometimes I think, that as Sukin was perhaps suggesting, we are so keen for results and keen to understand anicca and so on, that it’s easy to read more into our experiences than there really is. I don’t know in your case, but whenever there is focussing on particular sensations or looking for anicca or anatta or having the idea that ‘no thinking is better’, the attachment -- and sometimes the wrong view -- creeps in, I think. This can’t be blamed on Mr Goenka or any other teacher. The wrong views have been accumulated for many aeons and easily find opportunities. I remember the leg pain (no cushions and hours and hours of lotus sitting with no walking). I remember the very well-fed Indian ladies in beautiful saris who weren’t so bothered about following the rules as the small handful of keen young foreigners. They’d drift in and out, they had seats or cushions at the back and would often chat in corners. I remember there was no opportunity for any dhamma discussion and I remember the ‘magic’ of the experience of the sensations from head to toe. Now the latter reminds me very much of what I experience in my acupuncture treatments or Tai chi or Qi Gong. I see it as an unblocking of energy or ‘chi’ which is very good for the health and still a little magical. Mr Goenka explained how his migraines had been cured and I have no doubt about the efficacy for all sorts of health problems. I arranged a private ‘chat’ with him during the retreat. My question then was why particular sensations only were chosen to focus on initially. His answer was that in the beginning it’s too difficult to be aware of all the 4 Foundations and this way was easier as the sensations were most apparent. This didn’t make sense to me then and less still now. I also believe they were wrongly identified as vedanupassana, but it’s all a long time ago and there were no books by Mr Goenka then, as far as I know. So after I left the retreat, I continued with the Mahasi style meditation for another 6 months in Sri Lanka until it became apparent that this too was motivated by an idea of self. For a few years after I returned to England, like Christine has mentioned, I rather yearned (but found it impossible) to be part of a group or to be able to fit into the nearby Goenka household or to be able to appreciate the retreats as others did. Nina gave me a lot of support and those days are long, long gone. Actually, I feel tremendous relief that I don’t have any idea of a special time or place or technique for the practice and development of satipatthana. As Rob K has mentioned, life becomes a lot simpler and easier if one doesn’t cling to these situations as being more beneficial in some way. ..... > I'm sure that much delusion must be mixed in with what 'I think-I am > observing'. I continue with sitting practice - yes, I have some > attachement to it somedays. When I see this I just observe without any > judgement - when the judgement arises I just observe. I actually enjoy > having a chunk of my day where I can retreat to the meditation room and > just do nothing. This is easier said than done. I used to think that > meditation was something that 'I did' and now I think it is a way of > being or allowing what is to be present. ..... Shakti, I can appreciate this. I also value (and have a lot of attachment for) my quiet yoga time or daily swim, although I wouldn’t do wither if it weren’t for the health benefits. Is there any idea of ‘I’ observing? Is there any idea that there will be or should be more awareness whilst sitting quietly than at other times? Is there an idea that concentrating or focussing on an object is the way to develop sati? Is there any understanding now about paramattha dhammas? ..... > I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who post such > interesting and thought provoking posts. I am learning alot as I work > my way through all the posts. ..... It’s always very nice to hear from you Shakti and I look forward to more. Sarah ===== 14147 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 1:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sarah - VERY interesting post! Thank you. I was particularly interested in the following: ***************************** Mr Goenka explained how his migraines had been cured and I have no doubt about the efficacy for all sorts of health problems. I arranged a private ‘chat’ with him during the retreat. My question then was why particular sensations only were chosen to focus on initially. His answer was that in the beginning it’s too difficult to be aware of all the 4 Foundations and this way was easier as the sensations were most apparent. This didn’t make sense to me then and less still now. I also believe they were wrongly identified as vedanupassana, but it’s all a long time ago and there were no books by Mr Goenka then, as far as I know. ********************************** I also have puzzled over the emphasis on physical sensations. In current writings by Goenka et al, the claim seems to be that all elements of experience have an effect in that area, and it can serve as a kind of central focus point. To my mind, it is, in fact, a zeroing in on a limited area of experience, albeit an important one, and one via which enliughtenment factors can develop. I also question whether this practice actually constitutes vedanupassana. I suspect it might be better described as a form of "internal" kayanupassana. On that issue, I have long been confused on the preceise meaning of 'vedana'. Sometimes it seems to mean, as with Goenka, bodily sensation perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, but at other times it seems to mean the very experience of plesantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality itself, as opposed to the physical sensation. The suttas don't clarify this sufficiently for me. What about Abhidhamma? With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/4/02 4:51:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear Shakti, > > I wasn’t going to join in the ‘Goenka corner’, but after seeing the date > in your post I can’t resist;-) > ..... > --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > > Dear Friends, > > I took two course from Mr. Goenka back in 1975 I believe. > ..... > “Snapâ€......same for me and now you have to indulge a little nostalgia > (Rob Ep, you’re my excuse as you always encourage the India Tales;-)) > > Hyderabad, June (?), 1975. I was on my way from Macleod Ganj, Dharmsala to > Sri Lanka to become a nun and live in a forest temple. The train journey > (3rd class) was around 100 hours and anyone who has travelled long > distance, 3rd class in India, especially any female with long blond hair > recovering from hepatitis, will appreciate why 10 days with Mr Goenka in > Hyderabad en route would seem like a real retreat of peace & quiet. > > There was no hardship at all in foregoing a telephone, quiet reading > opportunities, a bed, a private shower, fancy food or any other luxuries. > I’d had none of these for a year already. Personal computers were > unimaginable. > ..... > >They changed > > my life and I still continue to be influenced by them. Until then I was > > searching for a way to go in and observe what was happening. Mr. Goenka > > exposed me to the technique and process and I am very grateful to him > > for sharing the teaching. He also said, "develop awareness and develop > > wisdom." It was a kind of mantra for me. > ..... > I had already spent 6 months with Munindra in B.Gaya, following the Mahasi > style practice and discussing and reading dhamma to a limited extent with > him. I had also met Mr Goenka with Munindra and so there were few > surprises. I was curious about the retreat nonetheless and as I said, it > was a welcome respite from rail travel. > ..... > > As I was young and new to the Dhamma I had little understanding coming > > from the west what that meant. I am older now but still feel I have > > little understanding of the Dhamma. I continue to embrace this teaching > > and am still open to it's meaning. This 'mantra' has even brought me to > > dsg. If I understand this correctly now awareness and wisdom just > > develop it has nothing to do with 'I'.??? > ..... > Right. Where or what is this ‘I’??? > ..... > > I appreciate that Mr. Goenka said to observe without any judgement, > > identification and not to label what is being observed. Over time > > without adding to what is being observed words, ideas, concepts begin to > > fade. Of course, I observed and still observe words, ideas, concepts as > > they arise and at times can glimpse the emptiness of what they are and > > that they are not self. At times moments or gaps can be observed when > > there is no thinking / thoughts. When thoughts arise they can appear > > like faint whispers. Maybe this is due to not feeding the stories that > > arise or perhaps the space can be observed because of a slowing down of > > input. Again here I am probably deluded - any ideas about this???? > ..... > Sometimes I think, that as Sukin was perhaps suggesting, we are so keen > for results and keen to understand anicca and so on, that it’s easy to > read more into our experiences than there really is. I don’t know in your > case, but whenever there is focussing on particular sensations or looking > for anicca or anatta or having the idea that ‘no thinking is better’, the > attachment -- and sometimes the wrong view -- creeps in, I think. This > can’t be blamed on Mr Goenka or any other teacher. The wrong views have > been accumulated for many aeons and easily find opportunities. > > I remember the leg pain (no cushions and hours and hours of lotus sitting > with no walking). I remember the very well-fed Indian ladies in beautiful > saris who weren’t so bothered about following the rules as the small > handful of keen young foreigners. They’d drift in and out, they had seats > or cushions at the back and would often chat in corners. I remember there > was no opportunity for any dhamma discussion and I remember the ‘magic’ of > the experience of the sensations from head to toe. Now the latter reminds > me very much of what I experience in my acupuncture treatments or Tai chi > or Qi Gong. I see it as an unblocking of energy or ‘chi’ which is very > good for the health and still a little magical. > > Mr Goenka explained how his migraines had been cured and I have no doubt > about the efficacy for all sorts of health problems. I arranged a private > ‘chat’ with him during the retreat. My question then was why particular > sensations only were chosen to focus on initially. His answer was that in > the beginning it’s too difficult to be aware of all the 4 Foundations and > this way was easier as the sensations were most apparent. This didn’t make > sense to me then and less still now. I also believe they were wrongly > identified as vedanupassana, but it’s all a long time ago and there were > no books by Mr Goenka then, as far as I know. > > So after I left the retreat, I continued with the Mahasi style meditation > for another 6 months in Sri Lanka until it became apparent that this too > was motivated by an idea of self. > > For a few years after I returned to England, like Christine has mentioned, > I rather yearned (but found it impossible) to be part of a group or to be > able to fit into the nearby Goenka household or to be able to appreciate > the retreats as others did. Nina gave me a lot of support and those days > are long, long gone. > > Actually, I feel tremendous relief that I don’t have any idea of a special > time or place or technique for the practice and development of > satipatthana. As Rob K has mentioned, life becomes a lot simpler and > easier if one doesn’t cling to these situations as being more beneficial > in some way. > ..... > > I'm sure that much delusion must be mixed in with what 'I think-I am > > observing'. I continue with sitting practice - yes, I have some > > attachement to it somedays. When I see this I just observe without any > > judgement - when the judgement arises I just observe. I actually enjoy > > having a chunk of my day where I can retreat to the meditation room and > > just do nothing. This is easier said than done. I used to think that > > meditation was something that 'I did' and now I think it is a way of > > being or allowing what is to be present. > ..... > Shakti, I can appreciate this. I also value (and have a lot of attachment > for) my quiet yoga time or daily swim, although I wouldn’t do wither if it > weren’t for the health benefits. Is there any idea of ‘I’ observing? Is > there any idea that there will be or should be more awareness whilst > sitting quietly than at other times? Is there an idea that concentrating > or focussing on an object is the way to develop sati? Is there any > understanding now about paramattha dhammas? > ..... > > I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who post such > > interesting and thought provoking posts. I am learning alot as I work > > my way through all the posts. > ..... > It’s always very nice to hear from you Shakti and I look forward to more. > > Sarah > ===== > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14148 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 5:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Sarah, Yes I've been thinking these past few months about how we create goals and expectations and end up being directed by them. Even to differentiate and place value upon the importance of kusala over akusala can sometimes when taken as a 'desired' state can cause us to ignore and disregard what is actually being experienced, as Jon reminded us in his post to Lisa. Also I was thinking this morning, about our deep-seated tendency to explain the stories of our lives in terms of causes. And because we have so little understanding about the complexity of conditions, we so easily attribute certain results to certain 'particular' cause which may in fact not be a major cause at all. Anyway all this I think, is due to thinking as I do, 'about' dhamma and not understanding the moments themselves. Best wishes, Sukin. Sarah: ..... Sometimes I think, that as Sukin was perhaps suggesting, we are so keen for results and keen to understand anicca and so on, that it’s easy to read more into our experiences than there really is. I don’t know in your case, but whenever there is focussing on particular sensations or looking for anicca or anatta or having the idea that ‘no thinking is better’, the attachment -- and sometimes the wrong view -- creeps in, I think. This can’t be blamed on Mr Goenka or any other teacher. The wrong views have been accumulated for many aeons and easily find opportunities. 14149 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 2:45pm Subject: Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, all - Having made a few references from time to time of how phenomenalism provides me with a helpful conceptual platform for viewing the Dhamma, I decided to post a copy of the Kalakarama Sutta, from the Book of Fours in the Anguttara Nikaya. To me, it is the premier example of "Buddhist phenomenalism" (with the Bahiya Sutta taking the silver medal). The following is a tranlation I found on the net. [An entire booklet dvoted to a study of this sutta is Magic of the Mind, by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda.] The sutta follows (The bracketed material is *not* part of the sutta, but was added by the person who provided the web article from which this was taken): ************************** The Kalakarama Sutta. [The Setting.] At one time the Exalted One was staying in Saketa in Kalaka's monastery. There the Exalted One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." "Revered Sir," replied those monks in assent. [As a Vedic or Greek god would talk, declaring omniscience,] the Exalted One said: "Monks, whatsoever in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of recluses and brahmins, gods and humans--whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind--all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever in the world . . . of gods and humans, -- whatsoever is seen, . . . by the mind, -- that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. [Now he denies alternatives to be construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of Fours.] If I were to say: `Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and humans--whatsoever is seen ... by the mind--all that I do not know'--it would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I both know it and know it not' -- that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I neither know it nor am ignorant of it' --it would be a fault in me. [The Buddha now declares how one uses the senses while avoiding the `apprehender' and the`apprehended'.] Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an `unseen', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-seeing', he does not conceive about a seer. He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of `an unheard', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-hearing', he does not conceive about a hearer. He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; he does not conceive of a`thing-worth-sensing', he does not conceive about one who senses. He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-cognizing', he does not conceive about one who cognizes. Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'. Moreover, than he who is `Such', there is none other greater or more excellent, I declare."[Now verses on how ordinary persons use their senses, sometimes called `the fantasy of normalcy'.] Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched in their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], whereon humans are hooked, impaled."I know, I see, `tis verily so"--no such clinging for the Tathagatas. ******************************** For comparison purposes, I also post here the Bahiya Sutta, copied from ATI: ******************************** Udana I.10 Bahiya Sutta About Bahiya Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was living in Supparaka by the seashore. He was worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, given homage -- a recipient of robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medical requisites for the sick. Then, when he was alone in seclusion, this line of thinking arose to his awareness: "Now, of those who in this world are arahants or have entered the path of arahantship, am I one?" Then a devata who had once been a blood relative of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth -- compassionate, desiring his welfare, knowing with her own awareness the line of thinking that had arisen in his awareness -- went to where he was staying and on arrival said to him: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have the practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of arahantship." "But who, living in this world with its devas, is an arahant or has entered the path to arahantship?" "Bahiya, there is a city in the northern country named Savatthi. The Blessed One -- an arahant, rightly self-awakened -- is living there now. He is truly an arahant and he teaches the Dhamma that leads to arahantship. " Then Bahiya, deeply chastened by the devata, left Supparaka right then and, in the space of one day and night, went all the way to where the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking meditation in the open air. He went to them and, on arrival, said, "Where, venerable sirs, is the Blessed One staying -- the arahant, right self-awakened? We want to see him." "He has gone into the town for alms." Then Bahiya, hurriedly leaving Jeta's Grove and entering Savatthi, saw the Blessed One going for alms in Savatthi -- calm, calming, his senses at peace, his mind at peace, tranquil and poised in the ultimate sense, accomplished, trained, guarded, his senses restrained, a Great One (naga). Seeing him, he approached the Blessed One and, on reaching him, threw himself down, with his head at the Blessed One's feet, and said, "Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have entered the town for alms." A second time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." A second time, the Blessed One said to him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have entered the town for alms." A third time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from the effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance. Having exhorted Bahiya of the Bark-cloth with this brief explanation of the Dhamma, the Blessed One left. Now, not long after the Blessed One's departure, Bahiya -- attacked by a cow with a calf -- lost his life. Then the Blessed One, having gone for alms in Savatthi, after the meal, returning from his alms round with a large number of monks, saw that Bahiya had died. On seeing him, he said to the monks, "Take Bahiya's body and, placing it on a litter and carrying it away, cremate it and build him a memorial. Your companion in the holy life has died." "As you say, lord," the monks replied. After placing Bahiya's body on a litter, carrying it off, cremating it, and building him a memorial, they went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they said to him, "Bahiya's body has been cremated, lord, and his memorial has been built. What is his destination? What is his future state?" "Monks, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was wise. He practiced the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma and did not pester me with issues related to the Dhamma. Bahiya of the Bark-cloth, monks, is totally unbound." Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: > Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing: > There the stars do not shine, > the sun is not visible, > the moon does not appear, > darkness is not found. > And when a sage, > a brahman through sagacity, > has known [this] for himself, > then from form & formless, > from bliss & pain, > he is freed. ********************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14150 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 11:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of teaching, to Nina Dear Nina, Apologies for the delay in responding. Thank you very much for the explanation of Patichcha Samuppada. Dhamma points which I was impressed: The boiling down of everything to paramaththa dhamma. and how much we ignore it. I mean we all know that every thing is citta, chetacika, rupa and nirvana. But the discussion showed that how much we ignore it and are stuck in concepts and worring unnecessarily. And I got a chance to know that I how little understanding on the Dhamma I have. I would realy like to attend an Abi Dhamma class by K. Sujin. And I am so happy for your concern... Take care, ~with meththa ranil 14151 From: yuzhonghao Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 11:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment Hi Howards, Thank you, Howard, for the reference. Regards, Victor --- Howard wrote: > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) - > > It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what is > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara Nikaya > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). Diagramatically, what > is said there is the following: > > Sense control > -> > Virtue > -> > Right concentration > -> > Knowledge and vision of things as they really are > -> > Revulsion and dispassion > -> > Knowledge and vision of liberation. > > The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite pivotal. > That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three. > > With metta, > Howard 14152 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Dear Howard, Thank you very very much for posting this sutta. I have wondered many times what Buddhist phenomenalism is and now thru your kind efforts I have some reference. I am wondering why the Buddha made him wait for the Dhamma while he was on alms? With metta, shakti Howard wrote: Hi, all - Having made a few references from time to time of how phenomenalism provides me with a helpful conceptual platform for viewing the Dhamma, I decided to post a copy of the Kalakarama Sutta, from the Book of Fours in the Anguttara Nikaya. To me, it is the premier example of "Buddhist phenomenalism" (with the Bahiya Sutta taking the silver medal). The following is a tranlation I found on the net. [An entire booklet dvoted to a study of this sutta is Magic of the Mind, by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda.] The sutta follows (The bracketed material is *not* part of the sutta, but was added by the person who provided the web article from which this was taken): ************************** The Kalakarama Sutta. [The Setting.] At one time the Exalted One was staying in Saketa in Kalaka's monastery. There the Exalted One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." "Revered Sir," replied those monks in assent. [As a Vedic or Greek god would talk, declaring omniscience,] the Exalted One said: "Monks, whatsoever in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of recluses and brahmins, gods and humans--whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind--all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever in the world . . . of gods and humans, -- whatsoever is seen, . . . by the mind, -- that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. [Now he denies alternatives to be construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of Fours.] If I were to say: `Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and humans--whatsoever is seen ... by the mind--all that I do not know'--it would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I both know it and know it not' -- that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I neither know it nor am ignorant of it' --it would be a fault in me. [The Buddha now declares how one uses the senses while avoiding the `apprehender' and the`apprehended'.] Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an `unseen', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-seeing', he does not conceive about a seer. He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of `an unheard', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-hearing', he does not conceive about a hearer. He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; he does not conceive of a`thing-worth-sensing', he does not conceive about one who senses. He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-cognizing', he does not conceive about one who cognizes. Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'. Moreover, than he who is `Such', there is none other greater or more excellent, I declare."[Now verses on how ordinary persons use their senses, sometimes called `the fantasy of normalcy'.] Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched in their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], whereon humans are hooked, impaled."I know, I see, `tis verily so"--no such clinging for the Tathagatas. ******************************** For comparison purposes, I also post here the Bahiya Sutta, copied from ATI: ******************************** Udana I.10 Bahiya Sutta About Bahiya Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was living in Supparaka by the seashore. He was worshipped, revered, honored, venerated, given homage -- a recipient of robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medical requisites for the sick. Then, when he was alone in seclusion, this line of thinking arose to his awareness: "Now, of those who in this world are arahants or have entered the path of arahantship, am I one?" Then a devata who had once been a blood relative of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth -- compassionate, desiring his welfare, knowing with her own awareness the line of thinking that had arisen in his awareness -- went to where he was staying and on arrival said to him: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have the practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of arahantship." "But who, living in this world with its devas, is an arahant or has entered the path to arahantship?" "Bahiya, there is a city in the northern country named Savatthi. The Blessed One -- an arahant, rightly self-awakened -- is living there now. He is truly an arahant and he teaches the Dhamma that leads to arahantship. " Then Bahiya, deeply chastened by the devata, left Supparaka right then and, in the space of one day and night, went all the way to where the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking meditation in the open air. He went to them and, on arrival, said, "Where, venerable sirs, is the Blessed One staying -- the arahant, right self-awakened? We want to see him." "He has gone into the town for alms." Then Bahiya, hurriedly leaving Jeta's Grove and entering Savatthi, saw the Blessed One going for alms in Savatthi -- calm, calming, his senses at peace, his mind at peace, tranquil and poised in the ultimate sense, accomplished, trained, guarded, his senses restrained, a Great One (naga). Seeing him, he approached the Blessed One and, on reaching him, threw himself down, with his head at the Blessed One's feet, and said, "Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have entered the town for alms." A second time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." A second time, the Blessed One said to him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have entered the town for alms." A third time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from the effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance. Having exhorted Bahiya of the Bark-cloth with this brief explanation of the Dhamma, the Blessed One left. Now, not long after the Blessed One's departure, Bahiya -- attacked by a cow with a calf -- lost his life. Then the Blessed One, having gone for alms in Savatthi, after the meal, returning from his alms round with a large number of monks, saw that Bahiya had died. On seeing him, he said to the monks, "Take Bahiya's body and, placing it on a litter and carrying it away, cremate it and build him a memorial. Your companion in the holy life has died." "As you say, lord," the monks replied. After placing Bahiya's body on a litter, carrying it off, cremating it, and building him a memorial, they went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they said to him, "Bahiya's body has been cremated, lord, and his memorial has been built. What is his destination? What is his future state?" "Monks, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was wise. He practiced the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma and did not pester me with issues related to the Dhamma. Bahiya of the Bark-cloth, monks, is totally unbound." Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: > Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing: > There the stars do not shine, > the sun is not visible, > the moon does not appear, > darkness is not found. > And when a sage, > a brahman through sagacity, > has known [this] for himself, > then from form & formless, > from bliss & pain, > he is freed. ********************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14153 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 7:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Shakti - In a message dated 7/4/02 11:36:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Dear Howard, > Thank you very very much for posting this sutta. I have wondered many times > what Buddhist phenomenalism is and now thru your kind efforts I have some > reference. > I am wondering why the Buddha made him wait for the Dhamma while he was on > alms? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I suppose that one reason might have been to teach patience. But more to the point, note that the Buddha replied after the 3rd request. This business of asking three times (three's a charm! ;-) was traditional. ---------------------------------------------------- > With metta, shakti > ========================= With metta, Howard > Howard wrote: Hi, all - > > Having made a few references from time to time of how phenomenalism > provides me with a helpful conceptual platform for viewing the Dhamma, I > decided to post a copy of the Kalakarama Sutta, from the Book of Fours in > the > Anguttara Nikaya. To me, it is the premier example of "Buddhist > phenomenalism" (with the Bahiya Sutta taking the silver medal). The > following > is a tranlation I found on the net. [An entire booklet dvoted to a study of > > this sutta is Magic of the Mind, by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda.] The sutta follows > (The bracketed material is *not* part of the sutta, but was added by the > person who provided the web article from which this was taken): > > ************************** > The Kalakarama Sutta. > [The Setting.] At one time the Exalted One was staying in Saketa in > Kalaka's > monastery. There the Exalted One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." > "Revered Sir," replied those monks in assent. [As a Vedic or Greek god > would > talk, declaring omniscience,] the Exalted One said: "Monks, whatsoever in > the > world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of > recluses and brahmins, gods and humans--whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed > (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, > sought > after and pondered over by the mind--all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever > in > the world . . . of gods and humans, -- whatsoever is seen, . . . by the > mind, > -- that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but > the > Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. [Now he denies alternatives to > be > construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of > Fours.] > If I were to say: `Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and > humans--whatsoever is seen ... by the mind--all that I do not know'--it > would > be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I both know it and know it not' -- > > that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I neither know it > nor > am ignorant of it' --it would be a fault in me. [The Buddha now declares > how > one uses the senses while avoiding the `apprehender' and the`apprehended'.] > > Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from > > sight; he does not conceive of an `unseen', he does not conceive of a > `thing-worth-seeing', he does not conceive about a seer. He does not > conceive > of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of `an > unheard', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-hearing', he does not > conceive about a hearer. He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as > apart from sensation; he does not conceive of a`thing-worth-sensing', he > does > not conceive about one who senses. He does not conceive of a cognizable > thing > as apart from cognition; he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-cognizing', > > he does not conceive about one who cognizes. Thus, monks, the Tathagata, > being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and > cognized, > is `Such'. Moreover, than he who is `Such', there is none other greater or > more excellent, I declare."[Now verses on how ordinary persons use their > senses, sometimes called `the fantasy of normalcy'.] Whatever is seen, > heard, > sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other folk. Midst those who are > > entrenched in their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. > This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], > whereon humans are hooked, impaled."I know, I see, `tis verily so"--no such > > clinging for the Tathagatas. > ******************************** > > For comparison purposes, I also post here the Bahiya Sutta, copied > from ATI: > > ******************************** > > Udana I.10 > > > > Bahiya Sutta > > > > About Bahiya > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. > Ireland > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Savatthi, > in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time Bahiya of the > Bark-cloth was living in Supparaka by the seashore. He was worshipped, > revered, honored, venerated, given homage -- a recipient of robes, > almsfood, > lodgings, and medical requisites for the sick. Then, when he was alone in > seclusion, this line of thinking arose to his awareness: "Now, of those who > > in this world are arahants or have entered the path of arahantship, am I > one?" Then a devata who had once been a blood relative of Bahiya of the > Bark-cloth -- compassionate, desiring his welfare, knowing with her own > awareness the line of thinking that had arisen in his awareness -- went to > where he was staying and on arrival said to him: "You, Bahiya, are neither > an > arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have > the > practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of > arahantship." "But who, living in this world with its devas, is an arahant > or > has entered the path to arahantship?" "Bahiya, there is a city in the > northern country named Savatthi. The Blessed One -- an arahant, rightly > self-awakened -- is living there now. He is truly an arahant and he teaches > > the Dhamma that leads to arahantship. " Then Bahiya, deeply chastened by > the > devata, left Supparaka right then and, in the space of one day and night, > went all the way to where the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in > Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. At that time, a large number of > monks were doing walking meditation in the open air. He went to them and, > on > arrival, said, "Where, venerable sirs, is the Blessed One staying -- the > arahant, right self-awakened? We want to see him." "He has gone into the > town > for alms." Then Bahiya, hurriedly leaving Jeta's Grove and entering > Savatthi, > saw the Blessed One going for alms in Savatthi -- calm, calming, his senses > > at peace, his mind at peace, tranquil and poised in the ultimate sense, > accomplished, trained, guarded, his senses restrained, a Great One (naga). > Seeing him, he approached the Blessed One and, on reaching him, threw > himself > down, with his head at the Blessed One's feet, and said, "Teach me the > Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be > for > my long-term welfare and bliss." When this was said, the Blessed One said > to > him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have entered the town for alms." A > second time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: "But it is hard to know for > sure > what dangers there may be for the Blessed One's life, or what dangers there > > may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O > > One-Well-Gone, that will be for my long-term welfare and bliss." A second > time, the Blessed One said to him: "This is not the time, Bahiya. We have > entered the town for alms." A third time, Bahiya said to the Blessed One: > "But it is hard to know for sure what dangers there may be for the Blessed > One's life, or what dangers there may be for mine. Teach me the Dhamma, O > Blessed One! Teach me the Dhamma, O One-Well-Gone, that will be for my > long-term welfare and bliss." "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself > thus: > In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the > heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In > reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train > > yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the > seen, > only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to > the > sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there > > is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is > > no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder > nor > between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Through hearing > this > brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bahiya of > > the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from the effluents through > > lack of clinging/sustenance. Having exhorted Bahiya of the Bark-cloth with > this brief explanation of the Dhamma, the Blessed One left. Now, not long > after the Blessed One's departure, Bahiya -- attacked by a cow with a calf > -- > lost his life. Then the Blessed One, having gone for alms in Savatthi, > after > the meal, returning from his alms round with a large number of monks, saw > that Bahiya had died. On seeing him, he said to the monks, "Take Bahiya's > body and, placing it on a litter and carrying it away, cremate it and build > > him a memorial. Your companion in the holy life has died." "As you say, > lord," the monks replied. After placing Bahiya's body on a litter, carrying > > it off, cremating it, and building him a memorial, they went to the Blessed > > One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they > were > sitting there, they said to him, "Bahiya's body has been cremated, lord, > and > his memorial has been built. What is his destination? What is his future > state?" "Monks, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was wise. He practiced the Dhamma > in > accordance with the Dhamma and did not pester me with issues related to the > > Dhamma. Bahiya of the Bark-cloth, monks, is totally unbound." Then, on > realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion > exclaimed: > > Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing: > > There the stars do not shine, > > the sun is not visible, > > the moon does not appear, > > darkness is not found. > > And when a sage, > > a brahman through sagacity, > > has known [this] for himself, > > then from form & formless, > > from bliss & pain, > > he is freed. > ********************************** > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14154 From: Howard Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 7:54pm Subject: A Minor Point Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard Hi, Jon - In a recent post you asked: > Do the texts, for example, speak of > slow walking (with or without 'noting with focus the foot placements' etc) > as a practice, as a *means to* the arising of understanding? How does > noting one's foot placements fit in with 'the all'/the khandhas that the > suttas say are to be known? The texts are the ultimate touchstone for > right or wrong view. We cannot safely rely on our own intuition or anyone > else's assurance on this. > ========================== I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts certainly do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from the Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking meditation in the open air." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14155 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 0:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Sarah, Thank you for sharing some of your Indian experiences. I always enjoy hearing such stories. I first sat with Mr. Goenka in Bodhgaya and then in Varanasi in 1974 or 75. Prior to that I met a student of his who told me about annapanasati so I did many months on breath awareness. I had no idea of what I was really doing - only the inclination to explore. When I finally sat w/Mr. Goenka and we began to explore body sensations I was amazed to find that in some areas of my body I had absolutely no awareness of sensation. At least I couldn't sense anything - not even pain seemed to be present in some areas. I wanted to do anything but watch - Mr. Goenka said just keep penetrating the area. Slowly I became aware of subtle sensations. As I look back on the experience - more explanation would have been better. Perhaps the experience would have been different. There was no awareness of hardness or instructions to be aware of this. In '74/75 Mr. Goenka too must have been new at teaching and I wonder if I would have heard more Abhidhamma if I would even have understood. I do know now that I am very grateful to have had all the experiences that I have had and that all of them have brought me to this moment. Every moment I am grateful to hear from all of you and have the opportunity to contemplate what is being said at dsg. Sarah, you asked below what is this'I'. I wrote, if I understand this correctly wisdom and awareness just develop they have nothing to do with 'I'. What I mean by this 'I' is the sense of me actually being in control of something here. Wisdom and awareness seem to develop when conditions are right. There is no I - I am only speaking conventionally. On another note, Mr Goenka will be here in Missoula, Montana (where I live) in a few days. He will pass thru Missoula as part of his North American tour where he will travel thru different parts of Canada and the USA. He will conduct a one day sit for old students and then that night give a public talk at the university of Montana. I will be sitting with about 50 other old students here. I will let you all know what that was like later next week. I have heard that he will be answering questions - so now maybe your opportunity. Any burning questions?????? With metta, shakti Sarah wrote: Dear Shakti, I wasn’t going to join in the ‘Goenka corner’, but after seeing the date in your post I can’t resist;-) ..... --- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Friends, > I took two course from Mr. Goenka back in 1975 I believe. ..... “Snap”......same for me and now you have to indulge a little nostalgia (Rob Ep, you’re my excuse as you always encourage the India Tales;-)) Hyderabad, June (?), 1975. I was on my way from Macleod Ganj, Dharmsala to Sri Lanka to become a nun and live in a forest temple. The train journey (3rd class) was around 100 hours and anyone who has travelled long distance, 3rd class in India, especially any female with long blond hair recovering from hepatitis, will appreciate why 10 days with Mr Goenka in Hyderabad en route would seem like a real retreat of peace & quiet. There was no hardship at all in foregoing a telephone, quiet reading opportunities, a bed, a private shower, fancy food or any other luxuries. I’d had none of these for a year already. Personal computers were unimaginable. ..... >They changed > my life and I still continue to be influenced by them. Until then I was > searching for a way to go in and observe what was happening. Mr. Goenka > exposed me to the technique and process and I am very grateful to him > for sharing the teaching. He also said, "develop awareness and develop > wisdom." It was a kind of mantra for me. ..... I had already spent 6 months with Munindra in B.Gaya, following the Mahasi style practice and discussing and reading dhamma to a limited extent with him. I had also met Mr Goenka with Munindra and so there were few surprises. I was curious about the retreat nonetheless and as I said, it was a welcome respite from rail travel. ..... > As I was young and new to the Dhamma I had little understanding coming > from the west what that meant. I am older now but still feel I have > little understanding of the Dhamma. I continue to embrace this teaching > and am still open to it's meaning. This 'mantra' has even brought me to > dsg. If I understand this correctly now awareness and wisdom just > develop it has nothing to do with 'I'.??? ..... Right. Where or what is this ‘I’??? ..... > I appreciate that Mr. Goenka said to observe without any judgement, > identification and not to label what is being observed. Over time > without adding to what is being observed words, ideas, concepts begin to > fade. Of course, I observed and still observe words, ideas, concepts as > they arise and at times can glimpse the emptiness of what they are and > that they are not self. At times moments or gaps can be observed when > there is no thinking / thoughts. When thoughts arise they can appear > like faint whispers. Maybe this is due to not feeding the stories that > arise or perhaps the space can be observed because of a slowing down of > input. Again here I am probably deluded - any ideas about this???? ..... Sometimes I think, that as Sukin was perhaps suggesting, we are so keen for results and keen to understand anicca and so on, that it’s easy to read more into our experiences than there really is. I don’t know in your case, but whenever there is focussing on particular sensations or looking for anicca or anatta or having the idea that ‘no thinking is better’, the attachment -- and sometimes the wrong view -- creeps in, I think. This can’t be blamed on Mr Goenka or any other teacher. The wrong views have been accumulated for many aeons and easily find opportunities. I remember the leg pain (no cushions and hours and hours of lotus sitting with no walking). I remember the very well-fed Indian ladies in beautiful saris who weren’t so bothered about following the rules as the small handful of keen young foreigners. They’d drift in and out, they had seats or cushions at the back and would often chat in corners. I remember there was no opportunity for any dhamma discussion and I remember the ‘magic’ of the experience of the sensations from head to toe. Now the latter reminds me very much of what I experience in my acupuncture treatments or Tai chi or Qi Gong. I see it as an unblocking of energy or ‘chi’ which is very good for the health and still a little magical. Mr Goenka explained how his migraines had been cured and I have no doubt about the efficacy for all sorts of health problems. I arranged a private ‘chat’ with him during the retreat. My question then was why particular sensations only were chosen to focus on initially. His answer was that in the beginning it’s too difficult to be aware of all the 4 Foundations and this way was easier as the sensations were most apparent. This didn’t make sense to me then and less still now. I also believe they were wrongly identified as vedanupassana, but it’s all a long time ago and there were no books by Mr Goenka then, as far as I know. So after I left the retreat, I continued with the Mahasi style meditation for another 6 months in Sri Lanka until it became apparent that this too was motivated by an idea of self. For a few years after I returned to England, like Christine has mentioned, I rather yearned (but found it impossible) to be part of a group or to be able to fit into the nearby Goenka household or to be able to appreciate the retreats as others did. Nina gave me a lot of support and those days are long, long gone. Actually, I feel tremendous relief that I don’t have any idea of a special time or place or technique for the practice and development of satipatthana. As Rob K has mentioned, life becomes a lot simpler and easier if one doesn’t cling to these situations as being more beneficial in some way. ..... > I'm sure that much delusion must be mixed in with what 'I think-I am > observing'. I continue with sitting practice - yes, I have some > attachement to it somedays. When I see this I just observe without any > judgement - when the judgement arises I just observe. I actually enjoy > having a chunk of my day where I can retreat to the meditation room and > just do nothing. This is easier said than done. I used to think that > meditation was something that 'I did' and now I think it is a way of > being or allowing what is to be present. ..... Shakti, I can appreciate this. I also value (and have a lot of attachment for) my quiet yoga time or daily swim, although I wouldn’t do wither if it weren’t for the health benefits. Is there any idea of ‘I’ observing? Is there any idea that there will be or should be more awareness whilst sitting quietly than at other times? Is there an idea that concentrating or focussing on an object is the way to develop sati? Is there any understanding now about paramattha dhammas? ..... > I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who post such > interesting and thought provoking posts. I am learning alot as I work > my way through all the posts. ..... It’s always very nice to hear from you Shakti and I look forward to more. Sarah ===== 14156 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 1, some remarks Dear Num, admirable that you still find time to help with this subject, going to the Foundation inspite of your new work situation. Anumodana. You give a word definition of the title, with the four discriminating knowledges. I always found it so difficult, no wonder. In the course of time there were still arahats with these four discriminations, and then there were arahats without these, and after that in this time there are no longer arahats in this world. Some references: The Buddhist Dictionnary, the Intro to the Path of Discrimination, The Book of Analysis and Dispeller of Delusion, I think (no time now to look it up), The Guide, Netti pakarana, has a lot about attha result and dhamma, cause, and see also Visuddhimagga. Moreover, they are mentioned in the Gradual Sayings and the Debates Discourse. However, this most difficult subject is not dealt with in the beginning of the Path of Discrimination, see Treatise XVI. I asked A. Supee in the bus in India, and he gave me a brief outline: The Buddha has the highest degree of these four, and this is a condition to contemplate the Buddha's wisdom. The four discr. of Sariputta are of a higher degree than those of the other excellent disciples. no. 1: attha:knowing the deep meaning of all subjects and aspects of the dhamma. no. 2: dhamma: the Buddha knew the causes and condiitons for everything, nothing excepted. All kammas and all vipakas. All condiitons, such as: the conditions for the sotapanna's sila, which are such that he would never kill, A. Supee said. no. 3: nirutti: the Buddha chose the right words adapted to the accumulations of the listeners. The Buddha had the highest degree of this, he knew so well whet a particular person could understand, when it was the right time for his enlightenment. no. 4: knowledge with regard to the first three, pa.tibhaana. This is the capability to answer all Dhamma questions. op 03-07-2002 17:03 schreef Num op Num: > > Let me give some introduction to PTSM. > There are 4 differences well-discriminated wisdoms (patisambhida): > 1) Attha-patisambhida : a discriminating panna (a clear comprehension) in > knowing dhammas , which are consequences or results(pala). > 2) Dhamma-patisambhida: a discriminating panna in knowing dhammas, whicht are > causes (hetu). > 3) Nirutti-patisambhida: linguistic wisdom: a discriminating panna in knowing > the meaning of words, and using of languages to call or explain dhamma. > 4) Patibhanna-patisambhida: a well-rounded nnana in all 3 patisambhidas. > > In summary: Attha (pala) refers to 5 dhammas: 1.condtioned dhamma 2. Nibbana > 3.Commentary 4. Vipakacitta, and 5. Kiriyacitta. Dhamma is contidion. Dhamma > (hetu) refers to 1. causes which will bring consequences 2.ariyamagga 3. The > discourse of the Buddha 4. Kusalacitta, and 5. Akusalacitta. > > > > PTSM is one of the book in kuddhakanikaya, suttantapitaka. It's a discourse > given by Ven. Sariputta. The contents of PTSM are about intricate detail of > panna and nnana. Pati= specified, sam= well, bhida= panna which is well > discriminated, magga=path. Patisambhidamagga = a clear comprehension and > well-discriminated wisdom (panna) for each path. The panna in this level > refers only to the wisdom of an ariya-person. Nina: From beginning to end this work deals with panna. It is impressive that in the very beginning it is said: the all should be directly known. This includes not only the five khandhas, but also the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. Suan said so well: all the Buddha taught is abhidhamma. I could add: all the Buddha taught is the development of right understanding of realities, because that is what abhidhamma is all about. Yes, also sila, not without panna, also samatha, not without panna. Num: Book #69/91 consists of the 3 vaggas: mahavagga, yuganadthavagga (pairing > dhamma which is smatha and vipassana), and pannavagga. Nina: Mahavagga, this is about sutta maya ~naana understanding through listening, and sila maya ~naana, knowledge consisting in sila, and, as A. Sujin said, this is the practice. Listening and practice. Here all degrees of sila are dealt with, as in the Visduddhimagga, up to lokuttara sila. (When we are going to study Visuddhimagga with Jon we should also study this chapter, also quoted by Vis.) Thus, it is all about the development of panna, not: first sila then samatha, then vipassana. The threepartite division of Vis is a question of system, it classifies under these three headings, that is all. Because when the Buddha teaches it is all about panna. The pairing of dhammas: samatha and vipassana. When samatha is dealt with: it is together with panna. It was a different matter outside the Buddha's teachings. With appreciation, looking forward to more, Nina. 14157 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 1:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 2, no. 4 Perfections, Ch 2, no. 4 Further on we read in the Commentary: He gives only when there is something to be given. He does not trouble himself nor feel disturbed when at times he wishes to give but he does not have anything he can give. The Bodhisatta gives only when he has something he can give. We read: When there are things to be given he gives what people like to have, not what they do not want. When other people are in need of something, he gives it away, provided there is something to be given. We read: He does not give because he expects something in return. And when there is not enough to give sufficiently to all, he distributes evenly whatever can be shared. But he does not give things that lead to affliction for others, such as weapons, poisons and intoxicants. Nor does he give amusing things which are harmful and lead to negligence. And he does not give unsuitable food or drink to a person who is sick, even though that person might ask for it, and he does not give what is suitable beyond the proper measure. If we really want to help someone, such as a person who is ill, we need to reflect with compassion on the way we will give him assistance. We should not just give without any discrimination, but we should also know to what extent our gift is suitable and useful to a sick person. We should know in detail what is kusala, and we should be discriminative, not neglectful of kusala. Just as a doctor should precisely know the condition of a person who is ill and the dosage of medicaments to be taken that is suitable for each individual, evenso should we give with discrimination. The Commentary states: Again, when asked, he gives to householders things appropriate for householders, and to monks things appropriate for monks. He gives to his mother and father, kinsmen and relatives, friends and colleagues, children, wife, slaves and workers, without causing pain to anyone. Having promised an excellent gift, he does not give something mean. He does not give because he desires gain, honour or fame, or because he expects something in return, or out of expectation of some fruit other than the supreme enlightenment (in the case of the Bodhisatta). He does not give detesting the gift or those who ask. He does not give a discarded object as a gift, not even to unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse him. 14158 From: onco111 Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 2:25am Subject: formal sitting and corruptions of insight I just popped into DSG and noticed that "calm and insight" looks like the topic of the week. And since butting in has been elevated to the level of a good-thing-to-do, how can I resist? [Hmmm... Come to think of it, I'm quite accomplished at resisting doing the right thing, but I'll butt in anyway.] I want to start with Robert's excellent and brief comment. > Dear Chris., > These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive of > the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and > profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts > say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of > mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to > or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the > teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. > I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. > robert This is a carefully written, nuanced comment, Robert, but I'll leave the nuances aside for now and stick with the main thrust. You make an interesting and important point, and one that you've made often before, viz. that calm accompanies insight. Can we take it a step further, to insight induces calm? In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of phenomena such as illumination, rapture, tranquility, bliss, etc. These phenomena may arise for one without insight in the course of formal meditation by, say, directing the mind to a kasina or the touch of the breath on the upper lip. However, these phenomena can also arise "due to insight" in a "beginner of insight," according to Vism. [107...] It may seem like a subtle distinction here -- whether the calm is induced by directing the mind onto a particular object or whether it is induced by insight -- but the distinction is clear. With the purposive directing of the mind onto an object, there is a repeated fixing of the attention on the object and the conscious suppression of the hindrances. With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104] "And now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him. ...illumination due to insight...knowledge due to insight...rapturous happiness due to insight...tranquillity due to insight...bliss due to insight...faith...well-exerted energy...well-founded mindfulness...equanimity...attachment due to insight." [Vism XX 105- 122]. [An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be reckoned as imperfections of insight." I don't think this reading makes sense, even though the translation might suggest it. After all, who is this 'person' with the status of 'beginner of insight'? And why are these things called 'imperfections' in him and not in someone who does not have that status? It would make more sense to read it more along the lines of: "With the tender insight knowledge (as discussed on the previous pages), ten imperfections might arise." But does the Pali support this? In other words, does the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on that... "Athassa imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)] When formations are seen with insight thus as anicca, anatta, and dukkha, there is no way calm does not arise. With the calm there may also arise any of a number of mental phenomena. These phenomena may also arise from a manufactured calm in the course of, say, a Goenka or Mahasi meditation retreat. But their arising may or may not have anything to do with insight. When they are induced by insight, Buddhagosa calls them "imperfections". When they arise from in the course of a meditation retreat, they are frequently called something like "way stations". Whether they arise due to insight or due to a manufactured calm, they have tremendous seductive power to pull the meditator away from the path toward attachment. This is especially true when the insight is weak, or the phenomena arise more from a manufactured calm and less from insight. A cornerstone of the alluring power is confusion between calm and insight. "...when his insight is adorned with illumination, etc., attachment arises in him, which is subtle and peaceful in aspect, and it relies on (clings to) that insight; and he is not able to discern that attachment as a defilement....[I]llumination, etc., are called imperfections because they are the basis for imperfection, not because they are unprofitable [akusala]. But attachment is both an imperfection and the basis for imperfection." [Vism X 122, 124]. The result of confusing calm for insight? "When he takes what is not the path to be the path and what is not fruition to be fruition, the course of his insight is interrupted." [Vism. XX, 123]. Now, supposing these phenomena arise, whether due to insight or a manufactured calm, there are a few possible responses. First, "When a man takes it thus, 'Illumination has arisen in me', his way of taking is due to wrong view [ditthi]. When he takes it thus, 'How agreeable this illumination that has arisen is', his way of taking is due to pride (conceit) [mana]. When he relishes the illumination, his way of taking is due to craving. So there are three ways of taking it in the case of illumination, that is to say, due to ditthi, to pride (conceit), and to craving. Likewise with the rest." [Vism. XX 125] The response may also be with understanding: "'This illumination has arisen. But it is impermanent, formed, conditionally arisen, subject to destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation.' Or he thinks: 'If illumination were self, it would be right to take it as self; but being not-self, it is taken as self. Therefore it is not-self in the sense of no pwer being exercisable over it; it is impermanent in the sense of non-existence after having come to be; it is painful in the sense of oppression by rise and fall'..." [Vism. XX 126] The arising of the phenomena are not insight, they aren't necessarily associated with insight (or signify insight), and they don't give rise to insight in any special way. They are just mental states that arise and pass away, and it is no easier to view these fruits of concentration with insight than it is to view so many other mental states with insight. In fact, it may even be more difficult for insight to arise about these corruptions than with many other types of phenomena because they are so pleasant, they seem so "right", and the allure is so strong that they represent substantial obstacles to insight, especially when they arise from manufactured calm in the context of formal sitting. This does not mean that formal sitting is wrong or bad or to-be- avoided, but for it to not be more harmful than beneficial, it must be approached with a good deal of caution, prudence, and humility. If not, the 10 corruptions of insight are more likely to serve as the basis of attachment than insight. Dan 14159 From: onco111 Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 2:25am Subject: formal sitting and corruptions of insight I just popped into DSG and noticed that "calm and insight" looks like the topic of the week. And since butting in has been elevated to the level of a good-thing-to-do, how can I resist? [Hmmm... Come to think of it, I'm quite accomplished at resisting doing the right thing, but I'll butt in anyway.] I want to start with Robert's excellent and brief comment. > Dear Chris., > These are good points. I think all types of kusala are supportive of > the path. To develop samatha correctly takes careful sila and > profound wisdom and renunciation. While it is true that the texts > say that nibbana can be attained without prior development of > mundane jhana, even the sukkhavipassaka must, whether they want to > or not, experience levels of calm that come from reflection on the > teachings and the deeper calm that comes with levels of insight. > I think in some ways it is a matter of emphasis. > robert This is a carefully written, nuanced comment, Robert, but I'll leave the nuances aside for now and stick with the main thrust. You make an interesting and important point, and one that you've made often before, viz. that calm accompanies insight. Can we take it a step further, to insight induces calm? In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of phenomena such as illumination, rapture, tranquility, bliss, etc. These phenomena may arise for one without insight in the course of formal meditation by, say, directing the mind to a kasina or the touch of the breath on the upper lip. However, these phenomena can also arise "due to insight" in a "beginner of insight," according to Vism. [107...] It may seem like a subtle distinction here -- whether the calm is induced by directing the mind onto a particular object or whether it is induced by insight -- but the distinction is clear. With the purposive directing of the mind onto an object, there is a repeated fixing of the attention on the object and the conscious suppression of the hindrances. With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104] "And now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him. ...illumination due to insight...knowledge due to insight...rapturous happiness due to insight...tranquillity due to insight...bliss due to insight...faith...well-exerted energy...well-founded mindfulness...equanimity...attachment due to insight." [Vism XX 105- 122]. [An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be reckoned as imperfections of insight." I don't think this reading makes sense, even though the translation might suggest it. After all, who is this 'person' with the status of 'beginner of insight'? And why are these things called 'imperfections' in him and not in someone who does not have that status? It would make more sense to read it more along the lines of: "With the tender insight knowledge (as discussed on the previous pages), ten imperfections might arise." But does the Pali support this? In other words, does the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on that... "Athassa imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)] When formations are seen with insight thus as anicca, anatta, and dukkha, there is no way calm does not arise. With the calm there may also arise any of a number of mental phenomena. These phenomena may also arise from a manufactured calm in the course of, say, a Goenka or Mahasi meditation retreat. But their arising may or may not have anything to do with insight. When they are induced by insight, Buddhagosa calls them "imperfections". When they arise from in the course of a meditation retreat, they are frequently called something like "way stations". Whether they arise due to insight or due to a manufactured calm, they have tremendous seductive power to pull the meditator away from the path toward attachment. This is especially true when the insight is weak, or the phenomena arise more from a manufactured calm and less from insight. A cornerstone of the alluring power is confusion between calm and insight. "...when his insight is adorned with illumination, etc., attachment arises in him, which is subtle and peaceful in aspect, and it relies on (clings to) that insight; and he is not able to discern that attachment as a defilement....[I]llumination, etc., are called imperfections because they are the basis for imperfection, not because they are unprofitable [akusala]. But attachment is both an imperfection and the basis for imperfection." [Vism X 122, 124]. The result of confusing calm for insight? "When he takes what is not the path to be the path and what is not fruition to be fruition, the course of his insight is interrupted." [Vism. XX, 123]. Now, supposing these phenomena arise, whether due to insight or a manufactured calm, there are a few possible responses. First, "When a man takes it thus, 'Illumination has arisen in me', his way of taking is due to wrong view [ditthi]. When he takes it thus, 'How agreeable this illumination that has arisen is', his way of taking is due to pride (conceit) [mana]. When he relishes the illumination, his way of taking is due to craving. So there are three ways of taking it in the case of illumination, that is to say, due to ditthi, to pride (conceit), and to craving. Likewise with the rest." [Vism. XX 125] The response may also be with understanding: "'This illumination has arisen. But it is impermanent, formed, conditionally arisen, subject to destruction, subject to fall, subject to fading away, subject to cessation.' Or he thinks: 'If illumination were self, it would be right to take it as self; but being not-self, it is taken as self. Therefore it is not-self in the sense of no pwer being exercisable over it; it is impermanent in the sense of non-existence after having come to be; it is painful in the sense of oppression by rise and fall'..." [Vism. XX 126] The arising of the phenomena are not insight, they aren't necessarily associated with insight (or signify insight), and they don't give rise to insight in any special way. They are just mental states that arise and pass away, and it is no easier to view these fruits of concentration with insight than it is to view so many other mental states with insight. In fact, it may even be more difficult for insight to arise about these corruptions than with many other types of phenomena because they are so pleasant, they seem so "right", and the allure is so strong that they represent substantial obstacles to insight, especially when they arise from manufactured calm in the context of formal sitting. This does not mean that formal sitting is wrong or bad or to-be- avoided, but for it to not be more harmful than beneficial, it must be approached with a good deal of caution, prudence, and humility. If not, the 10 corruptions of insight are more likely to serve as the basis of attachment than insight. Dan 14160 From: onco111 Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 2:26am Subject: jhana When insight arises, there is also a measure of calm induced, even to the point where various, very pleasant phenomena ("corruptions or imperfection of insight") may arise, such as discussed in Vism XX 105ff. These phenomena also arise as fruits of cultivation of concentration. But whether they arise due to insight or more narrowly as a cultivated fruit of concentration, they are simply mental states, empty of anything we can call a self. Does mundane jhana yield to the same characterization, i.e. arising due to insight or as a result of cultivated concentration? I believe it does. For example, we read in Vism V:19: "Of the white kasina it is said: 'One who is learning the white kasina apprehends the sign in white, either in a flower or in a cloth or in a color element.' So firstly, when someone has merit, having had previous practice, the sign arises in him when he sees a flowering bush of such a kind or vassikasumana (jasmine) flowers, etc., spread out, or a heap of white lotuses or lilies, white cloth or color element; and it also arises in a tin disk, a silver disk, and the moon's disk. "Anyone else should make a kasina, in the way already described for the blue kasina, with the white flowers already mentioned, or with cloth or color element. He should bring to mind as 'white, white'. The rest is as before [in the discussion of earth kasina]." In the second case, there is a directed, purposefully cultivated one- pointedness arising from fixing the mind on a chosen object. In contrast, with the first casethe sign arises upon seeing a flower, or a white cloth, or the moon, or... The object spontaneously acts as a kasina when insight arises and when the characteristics of one- pointedness concentration are recognized because of previous cultivation. But what kind of insight could "spontaneously" give rise to the arising of the sign in an object seen? "Quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unprofitable things he enters upon and dwells in the first jhana." [Vbh.245, cited in Vism. IV, 79]. The 'quite secluded' here means that the hindrances are wholly suppressed. 'Secluded' means that the mind does not indulge the sense desires, withdraws from the sense desires, stays away from the touch of the sense desires. This seclusion can arise from a purposefully cultivated one-pointedness (as in formal sitting) or from insight into the danger of sense desire and the clear awareness of the utter unsatifactoriness of all kinds of sense desire. With this insight, the mind recoils from any hints of sense desire as they arise, and eventually there is a good degree of seclusion. Along with the insight, there necessarily arises calm together with increasing seclusion. The insights may arise outside of formal sitting, as may a heightening degree of seclusion. The calm, insight, and seclusion build on each other until the sign arises in a simple object. The process is that insight into the wretchedness of sense desire repeatedly pulls the mind away from sense desire and a seclusion is developed. If the insight is strong enough and repeated enough, the seclusion is developed to the degree that that sign arises naturally and "spontaneously." This is substantially different from the directed cultivation of the arising of the sign because insight cannot be forced or directed. There is no saying, "Hmmmm.... Insight in the wretchedness of sense desire is a desirable thing, so I will make it arise by repeating: 'sense desire is wretched, sense desire is wretched." Nothing doing. This may give rise to strong concentration, but not to insight. Insight arises from clear comprehension of states as they arise and pass away, not so much from picking an object to fix the mind to. When the insight DOES arise, the next thing you know, the body may end up under a tree, erect, with mindfulness firmly established. The mind may then be quite secluded from sense desire and enter into the first jhana, emerge from the first jhana, enter into the second jhana, etc. Or it may not. It may instead embark on the noble path. Most likely, though, the mind is able to find some attachment, and the insight comes to a screeching halt, perhaps without any realization that the attachment is a defilement, so that instead of 'noble path', the mind walks the wrong path. Now, the arising of the sign is only the first step in moving to jhana. It is followed by the arising of the counterpart sign, which is an indication what is called 'access concentration' -- one step away from jhana. The arising of the sign does not necessarily entail the arising of the counterpart sign; on the contrary, "the arousing of the counterpart sign...is very difficult." [Vism IV, 34]. By my reading, the sign may arise spontaneously due to insight during daily life, but probably not the counterpart sign or full jhana. This appears to virtually require that the body ends up under a tree or on a cushion. However, when the insight is strong enough to arouse the sign in an object in daily life and the body moves to a cushion, the force of the insight may indeed relatively readily facilitate the arising of the counterpart sign and even the flash of a moment of jhana. At any point, the thought may arise: "Ahhh... This is wonderful!" or "Oooo... I had some cool insights!" or "Wow! I'd like to see that counterpart sign arise now!" At that point, the process is derailed and is replaced by attachment and craving. This development of jhana is not is explicitly cultivated; rather, it is a possible consequence of the development of insight. There is also an explicitly cultivated jhana that Vism. also discusses. The jhana is the same in both cases, and the seclusion that is associated with the arising of the sign, the counterpart sign, and the jhana is kusala. But the development may well not conduce to development of subsequent detachment and discernment. Analogies -- Case 1: A householder that gives food to famous monk on his birthday in order to store up merit. There may well be a moment or two of kusala (dana) in the whole process of giving, but it is so much mixed up with wrong view that the kusala has little force. Case 2: Insight may arise in a meditator to the degree that one or more of the 10 "corruptions of insight" arise. There may well be some kusala moments of detachment and saddha (as opposed to mana), but they might be so much mixed up with wrong view about the practice that the kusala has little force. Case 3: An accomplished meditator may be able to cultivate jhana, which is no doubt kusala. But the whole process may be so much mixed up with wrong view that the kusala has little force, and the practice package (not the jhana itself) might end up being a vehicle for generating craving and ignorance. How so? The cultivation of jhana may wrongly be viewed as the vehicle or as the path itself. The meditator may have an occasional moment of jhana interspersed with trillions and trillions of moments of craving for jhana or lamenting the passing away of those rare and precious jhana moments. The concept of jhana may then become an object for clinging, and the cycle of becoming continues unabated: "May I be reborn in a higher plane! May I be born in a higher plane!" Case 4: A long-experienced but unaccomplished meditator tries to attain jhana but cannot because conditions are not ripe for him. The trillions and trillions of moments of craving for things to be as they are not, for particular mental states that have not arisen, are not attenuated by even the brief moments of jhana that an accomplished meditator may experience. The practice becomes a wonderful vehicle for generating attachment. Is the intention to have this or that attainment, to relish some types of mental states, or to develop understanding and detachment? When the object is development of understanding, there is not so much thought of this practice or that practice, or even the question of the necessity or desirability of "formal practice." Instead, there is concern about understanding this moment, understanding the mental states as they arise, without being overly concerned about waiting for the material conditions to be conducive to focusing the mind on a particular object that one choosing as the important one. Dan 14161 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 7:06am Subject: ADL ch. 14 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 14 (4) When we are not mindful of realities, we take the objects we experience for self. When panna realizes the objects which are experienced as nama and rupa, elements which do not last, there is less opportunity for akusala javana-cittas. In the 'Visuddhimagga' (I, 55) we read about the 'Elder' Maha-Tissa : ...It seems that as the Elder was on his way from Cetiya-pabbata to Anuradhapura for alms, a certain daughter-in-law of a clan, who had quarrelled with her husband and had set out early from Anuradhapura all dressed up and tricked out like a celestial nymph to go to her relatives' home, saw him on the road, and being low-minded, she laughed a loud laugh. (Wondering) 'What is that?", the Elder looked up, and finding in the bones of her teeth the perception of foulness, he reached Arahantship. Hence it was said : 'He saw the bones that were her teeth, And kept in mind his first perception; And standing on that very spot, The Elder became an Arahant.' But her husband who was going after her saw the Elder and asked 'Venerable sir, did you by any chance see a woman?' The Elder told him: 'Whether it was a man or woman That went by I noticed not ; But only that on this high road There goes a group of bones.' Maha-Tissa was not absorbed in the object he experienced, nor entranced by the details. He realized when he perceived the woman's teeth the 'foulness of the body' and he did not take what he perceived for 'self'. The perception of the 'foulness of the body' reminds us not to see the self in the body, but to realize bodily phenomena as rupas which do not stay. Maha-Tissa saw things as they are; the panna arising at that moment was to the degree that it could eradicate all defilements. There are countless javana-cittas in a day with lobha, dosa and moha, and therefore we should not be heedless, but we should be as mindful as we are able to. We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, par. 97, Dwelling heedless) : At Savatthi was the occasion (of this discourse)... 'I will teach you, monks, of the one who dwells heedless, and of the one who dwells earnest. Do you listen to it. And how, monks, does one dwell heedless? In him, monks, who dwells with the faculty of sight uncontrolled, the heart is corrupted by objects cognizable by the eye. In him whose heart is corrupted there is no delight. Without delight there is no joy. Where joy is not, there is no calm. Without calm one dwells in sorrow. The sorrowful man's heart is not composed. When the heart is not composed, one has not clear ideas. Through not having clear ideas he is reckoned as one who dwells heedless. (And it is the same with regard to the faculties of taste, touch and mind). And how, monks, does one dwell in earnest? In him, monks, who dwells with the faculty of sight controlled the heart is not corrupted by objects cognizable by the eye. In him whose heart is not corrupted delight is born. In one delighted joy is born. When one is joyful the body is calmed. He whose body is calmed feels at ease. Composed is the heart of him who is at ease. When the heart is composed one's ideas are clear. Through having clear ideas one is reckoned as one who dwells earnest. (And it is the same with regard to the faculty of taste, touch and mind.) Thus, monks, is one a dweller in earnestness.' Questions 1. Are there for the arahat only lokuttara cittas performing the function of javana, or can he also have kamavacara cittas (cittas of the sensuous plane) performing the function of javana? 2. Are there vipakacittas which can perform the function of javana? 14162 From: lbn1959 Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 7:22am Subject: test only a test sorry Leonardo 14163 From: <> Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] cause & result Hi Sarah, thanks for all this great research. I didn't mean to put you to so much trouble. I have a couple of comments on two of your sources. S: In 'Guide to Conditional Relations',by U Narada (PTS) I'm reading that there are 33 volitions associated with 'faultless and faulty consciousnesses' and with these its function is 'to leave behind a force, like the seed or germ, which will produce resultant mental aggregates and kamma-produced matter in the future. We read that this force is present like the latent tendencies. L: By 'resultant mental aggregates' I take it Ven. U Narada means vipaka cittas. Correct? S: "In the description of the clause "with formations as condition consciousness", as regards cakkhuvinnanam ("eye-consciousness") and so on, eye-consciousness is twofold, namely, profitable resultant and unprofitable resultant. Likewise ear-........ L: I think there must be some confusion here. "With formations as condition, consciousness" refers to rebirth consciousness (patisandhi). Eye consciousness doesn't arise until after ayatana nidana. I think it's more or less assumed in phassa (contact) nidana. I guess it's kind of fruitless to try to reason this process out in detail since it can only be superficially known. What should we be doing with citta process as a study or practice topic? Its ok with me if you wait awhile to respond. It hurts my wrist to read your posts. best wishes, Larry 14164 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi Howard, --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > VERY interesting post! ..... I’m glad to hear your response. (Jon said he found it interesting too as he never knew I’d been on a Goenka retreat - sooner or later he finds out all my closet skeletons here;-)) > ********************************** > > I also have puzzled over the emphasis on physical sensations. In > current writings by Goenka et al, the claim seems to be that all > elements of > experience have an effect in that area, and it can serve as a kind of > central > focus point. To my mind, it is, in fact, a zeroing in on a limited area > of > experience, albeit an important one, and one via which enliughtenment > factors > can develop. I also question whether this practice actually constitutes > vedanupassana. I suspect it might be better described as a form of > "internal" > kayanupassana. ..... Of course there is a very big difference -- as we all discuss here-- between vedana (a kind of nama) and rupa. We also know that if there isn’t clear comprehension and understanding developed of the distinction, by being aware of all kinds of namas and rupas over and over again, there cannot be any higher knowledge (let alone enlightenment) and realities will continue to be taken for self. ..... >On that issue, I have long been confused on the preceise > meaning of 'vedana'. Sometimes it seems to mean, as with Goenka, bodily > sensation perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, but at other > times > it seems to mean the very experience of plesantness, unpleasantness, or > neutrality itself, as opposed to the physical sensation. The suttas > don't > clarify this sufficiently for me. What about Abhidhamma? ..... Actually, there is also plenty of detail in the suttas, but it is often misunderstood and I used to get rather confused too. For example, in the Samyutta Nikaya, Salayatanavagga, the Theme of the Hundred and Eight (following the Sivaka Sutta, p1280 in BB’s translation), it discusses the different classifications of vedana (feelings) and is a good example of how realities are classified according to the context.: “I have spoken of five kinds of feelings...six kinds...eighteen...thirty-six..; and I have spoken of one hundred and eight kinds of feelings by (still another) method of exposition...” It gives detail, but without the abhidhamma and dependent on a translation, it’s very easy to get confused, I think. Like you sugggest, the physical sensations experienced by body consciousness are rupas (hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion). The vedana (feelings) are nama accompanying the cittas at every moment. Let me quote from a post I wrote a while ago to Manji: ***** When the feelings are summarised into 5 kinds (commonly), they are: a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) c) happy feeling (somanassa) d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is kusala or akusala vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of kamma) and it is accompanied by either sukha or dukkha respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, however, be followed by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome or unwholesome consciousness) and these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha. ***** So even pleasant and painful bodily feelings are mental factors, namas, which experience the rupas at these times with the cittas and other mental factors. I’ll be glad to hear if this still isn’t clear. I’d also recommend the chapter on vedana in “Cetasikas’ by NIna for further clarification. It’s interesting that we both shared this confusion and I know many others do as well. =============== Btw, on the Elephant’s Footprint 2. thread, I think I didn’t reply to your last post because we were in pretty much full agreement (no news is good news from me;-)) As I was discussing with Larry, if there is no result of kamma by way of seeing consciousness at this moment, then even though we may be ‘looking’ at a car, for example, if the ‘external forms’ don’t come ‘into range’, we’re in trouble. I’ll sign off here, but add some of your comments below which I appreciated and agreed with, including the one about academic parties;-) Sarah ====== > Howard: > There is just the anger ("our" anger, namely the anger directly > perceived and not just inferred in "another"), as it is, with the > accompanying unpleasantness, tightness, burning, and agitation, and > there is > the knowing of it, all impersonal phenomena. The anger and the knowing > of it > co-occur as a single experiential event, never separately, but not > one-and-the-same either. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > So we begin to understand a little more about the universality of the > > Teachings by understanding directly the namas and rupas appearing now. -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. And what is most critical that we come to understand is the > impersonality of the entire process and all its elements: citta, > cetasika, > and rupa, and especially the impersonality of the knowing, which is mere > > function and not an agent. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Using your party analogy, .......> ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. By repeated observation, we can distinguish parties from > funerals > (though sometimes this is difficult - considering some academic parties > I've > been to! ;-)), and, by careful observation, we can learn to distinguish > such > pairs as knowing from known, permanent from impermanent, substantial > from > insubstantial, and directly perceived from conceptually constructed. > ----------------------------------------------------------- 14165 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 4:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Dear Shakti, Probably if we delved enough we’d find we’d been in Bodhgaya at the same time. (There is one other member on the list that I remember from then). Bodh Gaya was just a very small sleepy village with a few rickshaws. In the newspaper today, I read that Sri Lankan airways are starting a direct flight to B.Gaya from Colombo. Is it possible?? ..... > ... When I finally sat w/Mr. Goenka and we began to explore body > sensations I was amazed to find that in some areas of my body I had > absolutely no awareness of sensation. At least I couldn't sense > anything - not even pain seemed to be present in some areas. I wanted > to do anything but watch - Mr. Goenka said just keep penetrating the > area. ..... Again, I can see a therapeutic value or potential in this, but question what it has to do with the Buddha’s Teachings. ..... > Sarah, you asked below what is this'I'. I wrote, if I understand this > correctly wisdom and awareness just develop they have nothing to do with > 'I'. What I mean by this 'I' is the sense of me actually being in > control of something here. Wisdom and awareness seem to develop when > conditions are right. There is no I - I am only speaking > conventionally. ..... Thank you....I may have mis-understood your "???" ..... > On another note, Mr Goenka will be here in Missoula, Montana (where I > live) in a few days. He will pass thru Missoula as part of his North > American tour where he will travel thru different parts of Canada and > the USA. He will conduct a one day sit for old students and then that > night give a public talk at the university of Montana. I will be > sitting with about 50 other old students here. I will let you all know > what that was like later next week. I have heard that he will be > answering questions - so now maybe your opportunity. Any burning > questions?????? ..... That’ll be interesting......he must be in his 70s or 80s now? I admire his stamina and kindness. No burning questions, but I’ll be interested to read your report. You could ask, if you feel inclined, where in the Tipitaka it suggests there should be the focussing on these sensations. Was the method taught by the Buddha or was it introduced by his teacher, U Ba Kin (sp?) Howard or Sukin may have other questions. Thanks for all your other comments too. Have fun! Sarah ==== 14166 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 1 Hi Num, (Nina, Jaran & Kom in passing), --- Num wrote: > Dear Nina, Sarah and all. > > I am somewhat busy with my new job, new place and also getting used to > Thai > system. I went to the Foundation last week. It was a very nice > experience. > Meeting a lot of eager to learn and knowledgeable persons is a very nice > > feeling. ..... It must have been quite interesting for you after hearing so much from your aunt and others. I’m sure they were all very glad to meet you and I’m sure your sense of humour will help with the changes in systems;-) ..... Thank you for your intro below.which is interesting but rather like a foreign language to me at this stage, so I’ll just sit back and enjoy your discussion with Nina. I started reading the long intro by AK Warder in the 1997 PTS ed of the text. It’s very detailed and frankly, mostly over my head (read- just an intellectual exercise at this stage). It gives a lot of cross-referencing on the discriminations and compares the uses in Anguttara,Parivara (Vinaya), Vibhanga, Kathavatthu and other texts. It suggests some differences, so I’m glad to read Nina’s notes too. Enough said. ***** On quite a separate thread, we were discussing with Jaran the meaning of “If you wish” (sace akankhati) which he was questioning in MN152 (I think) where it appears frequently. I mentioned it sometime to K.Sujin and she suggested it was just conventional usage. For example, if a child has learnt to play the piano, we may say “play now, if you wish”. Of course it doesn’t mean that there is any self to decide, to control, to arrange conditions or to play, but having mastered various skills, conventionally we can say “play, if you wish” because the child has the ability. Kom gave a couple of examples about wishes in a helpful post to Christine on "Merit Making" which were interesting. He pointed out that “it is impossible to have small kusala, make big wishes, and get big results”. There are also the suttas which have been quoted to show that it is the understanding and not the wishing that brings results. The reason I started thinking about this now is because when I was looking for a particular reference for my post to Larry yesterday in Sammohavinodani, I came across a section title “One’s Wish’ under Classification of the Truths (11): “Icchaa uppajjati (“there arises the wish”): there arises the craving. Aho vata (“Ah!”) is the aspiration. Na kho pan’eta.m icchaaya pattabba.m (“but this is not to be had by wishing”): this non-subjection to birth which exists in the pious who have abandoned arising, and ths non-coming of birth which exists in those who have attained extinction, wished for thus:...........is not to be had by wishing because it is not to be had without developing the path by one who wishes, and because it is to be had through developing the path by one who does not wish..........because there is something whereby one who wishes for an unobtainable thing (vatthu) does not obtain it, the wishing for the unobtainable thing should be understood as suffering.....yam p’iccham.m na labbhati tam pi dukkha.m (“also this not obtaining one’s wish is pain”). ***** Thanks for keeping in touch with us Num and look f/w to any of your reports. Sarah ===== 14167 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 6:10pm Subject: A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi Larry, Let’s see if I can be kind to both our wrists this time;-) Let me just say that you didn'tput me to any trouble....it was a pleasure and was written for others too. A few ‘clear-up’ comments if I may: 1.’Resultant mental aggregates’ referred to by U Narada would refer to vipaka cittas and associated cetasikas. 2.With regard to the quote I gave from the Sammohavinodani regarding eye-consciousness and the other vipaka cittas, it is referring to resulting vipakas at birth and throughout life (as in the case of sense consciousness). Let me add another short quote: “Firstly, in one who is reborn by means of either profitable result or unprofitable result, according as his faculties mature, (so) the five profitable resultant eye (etc) consciousnesses occur, accomplishing the functions of seeing, hearing (etc), on being instigated (respectively) by a desirable or undesirable-neutral visible datum etc as objects come into focus of the eye etc, and having eye-sensitivity as their (material) support. Likewise the five unpfofitable resultant......” 3.By understanding a little more theory and carefully considering it as you do, it can be a condition for understanding to develop. I was just discussing with Howard about rupas and vedana and so on. If they are all mixed together (not the language issue), it’s very difficult for namas and rupas to be known. Concepts will be taken for realities and an idea of self is bound to be involved, i think. 4. Thinking is never vipaka. We may be referring to specific cetasikas (Vitakka and vicara), to a combination of factors or to the cittas involved. Maybe we can come back to this;-) 5. I found your CMA quote very helpful. Some of your conclusions weren’t quite right as I read them. Vipaka cittas are not result in name only. It is as a result of kamma that the citta experiences the desirable or undesirable object and thus it is kusala or akusala vipaka at that time. Dosa and sannavipallasa will arise in the following javana process. I hope my other post to H. on vedana (feeling)may have helped a little. Vedana is a universal cetasika, like sanna, arising with every citta. ***** I’m trying hard to be kind to our wrists and get ready for my tai chi class at the same time. Let me know if anything still isn’t clear or if I’ve made any mistakes. Sarah ===== 14168 From: Howard Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 3:01pm Subject: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sarah - I'll just zero in on that part of your post I still have questions about. In a message dated 7/5/02 3:49:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > >On that issue, I have long been confused on the preceise > > meaning of 'vedana'. Sometimes it seems to mean, as with Goenka, bodily > > sensation perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, but at other > > times > > it seems to mean the very experience of plesantness, unpleasantness, or > > neutrality itself, as opposed to the physical sensation. The suttas > > don't > > clarify this sufficiently for me. What about Abhidhamma? > ..... > Actually, there is also plenty of detail in the suttas, but it is often > misunderstood and I used to get rather confused too. For example, in the > Samyutta Nikaya, Salayatanavagga, the Theme of the Hundred and Eight > (following the Sivaka Sutta, p1280 in BB’s translation), it discusses the > different classifications of vedana (feelings) and is a good example of > how realities are classified according to the context.: > > “I have spoken of five kinds of feelings...six > kinds...eighteen...thirty-six..; and I have spoken of one hundred and > eight kinds of feelings by (still another) method of exposition...†> > It gives detail, but without the abhidhamma and dependent on a > translation, it’s very easy to get confused, I think. > > Like you sugggest, the physical sensations experienced by body > consciousness are rupas (hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion). > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay, rupas. But what about tinglings, itches, pressures, and pains? Are these also rupas (and/or conceptually grouped pkgs of rupas) or are these vedana. Goenka et al seem to consider them vedana, but I suspect that is miscategorization. ----------------------------------------------------- The> > vedana (feelings) are nama accompanying the cittas at every moment. Let me > quote from a post I wrote a while ago to Manji: > ***** > When the feelings are summarised into 5 kinds (commonly), they are: > > a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) > b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) > c) happy feeling (somanassa) > d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) > e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, but this is still partly ambiguous. Items c) and d) are clear to me, being mental feelings, being unambiguously on the "nama side". Items a), b), and e), however, could still be understood in more than one way. On the one hand, they could refer to various physical sensations *felt* as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutrally. On this reading, there would be *multitudes* of differing vedana - a huge aggregate. On the other hand, they could refer merely to instances of pleasantness, unpleasantness, and indifference *conditioned* by sensory contact, with the instances all differing due to the differences in the sensory contacts that conditioned their arising. (This reading would also allow for a huge aggregate, but the differences in instances is more indirect in this case, being based not on the feelings themselves, but on the conditioning contact.) I suspect that it is this *latter* reading that was intended by the Buddha, but I don't find this issue crystal clear. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is kusala or akusala > vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of kamma) and it is accompanied by > either sukha or dukkha respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these > moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very > short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, however, be followed > by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome or unwholesome consciousness) and > these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha. > ***** > So even pleasant and painful bodily feelings are mental factors, namas, > which experience the rupas at these times with the cittas and other mental > factors. > > I’ll be glad to hear if this still isn’t clear. I’d also recommend the > chapter on vedana in “Cetasikas’ by NIna for further clarification. It’s > interesting that we both shared this confusion and I know many others do > as well. > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14169 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 11:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Awareness (was, ADL ch. 13 (1)) Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I think you are saying that because the citta and its object changes very > rapidly, awareness cannot keep up with it. (This perhaps forms the basis > of the attraction to the 'slowing down' approach.) > > As I see it, there is no need for awareness to 'keep up with' the changing > object. We agree that the goal is awareness of different realities, each > to be known as it is. To my understanding, though, this does not mean > awareness of all realities all the time, nor does it mean awareness of but > a single moment of a dhamma (these would be things that only the likes of > a Buddha could accomplish). Nor does it mean necessarily awareness of > different dhammas successively. > > If there are moments of awareness of a single dhamma, then it doesn't > matter whether these are in isolation or are part of other moments of > awareness. > > > Hope my little clarification on 'not fast enough' will help. > > Goglerr > > As I've said above, we are not trying to 'catch' an individual moments of > citta or its object, so the speed of change is not a problem. > > ========================== Howard: I think you are addressing something important and interesting here. It is also a subject which, to my mind, calls for clarification. First of all - yes, I think it is that "keeping up" aspect which motivates the attempt to "slow down", a matter which I *partially* question (and which is an issue separate from that of formal vs informal meditation.). The main thing, however, which I would like to see clarified, however, is the meaning of 'awareness' in what I have quoted by you above. It doesn't seem that it could mean vi~n~nana/citta, for that is available all the time. Can it mean sati? That strikes me as more probable. I would suppose that in an early "training phase", doing things more slowly could aid in the building of sati, but I also think that once a certain level of sati is in place, it is that, itself, which subjectively "slows things down" and leads to yet further sati. I'd be interested in hearing yours and others comments on this. =============================== Jon: Yes, I very much agree that this is an important area (and an interesting one, too). Thanks for raising it. I hope I can contribute something useful, and that others will come in. 1. The meaning of 'awareness' 'Awareness' and 'mindfulness' are terms used for the Pali 'sati', as in 'satipatthana'. This term is found in both the suttas and the abhidhamma. In the abhidhamma, sati is identified as one of the cetasikas (mental factors), so it arises together with, and experiences the same object as, a citta (moment of consciousness). When we talk about having awareness/being aware, we refer in fact to *consciousness that is accompanied by the mental factor of awareness* (just as when we talk about being angry we refer to consciousness accompanied by the mental factor of dosa). 2. Whether advanced sati can result in a subjective slowing down of things. From my reading of texts such as the Satipatthana Sutta, it seems that highly developed awareness, when accompanied by understanding, results in dhammas being perceived more clearly and that seems to include, for want of a better way of putting it, perceiving more dhammas and perceiving them more according to their true nature (not self etc). The sense I get is 'in greater detail', or 'in a magnified form' rather than 'in a slowed-down form', but it probably amounts to much the same thing. 3. Whether doing things more slowly can be an aid to awareness in the beginning. While this has a certain superficial appeal, it lacks any support from the texts. As I said in an earlier post, the assumption here is that the 'problem' is that things are happening too fast, or are too intermingled, to be 'caught' by awareness, whereas in reality the problem is quite simply that the awareness accumulated to date is not sufficiently well developed. As to specifically in what sense it departs from the development of awareness as found in the texts, I would say as follows. The purpose of slowing down is to enable one's attention to be focussed more strongly on a particular dhamma or on dhammas generally. However, the texts do not draw any distinction between one dhamma and another, as far as the descriptions of 'things to be known as they are' are concerned. I refer here to the 5 khandhas, 'the all', the 4 satipatthanas, etc. No one dhamma is said to be more in need of being known than another. It seems to me that whenever we 'focus on a dhamma', we are actually focussing on something that we *take for* a dhamma but is not in fact so, since without awareness dhammas are not and cannot be directly experienced and so do not appear to us as they are. This is why, in my view, any attempted focussing or directed attention on an object is bound to fail. The danger in all this is that there can be 'results' from this kind of practice that appear to match things described in the texts, and this is readily taken as confirmation of the correctness of the practice. Well, that's how I see it. I hope this offers something of interest. I'd like to hear what others have to say, too. Jon 14170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Dear Larry, thinking is always javana, and never vipaka. But when we mean by thinking the cetasika vitakka, which hits and strikes the object so that citta can cognize it, this arises with all cittas of the sensesphere other than the five pairs of seeing, hearing, etc. Seeing does not need vitakka in order to see. But it accompanies the vipakacittas which are receiving-consciousness and investigating-consciousness, besides, the ahetuka kiriyacitta that is the sense-door adverting-consciousness. But let us talk now about thinking of stories and concepts. When the objective is not dana, sila or bhavana, we think with akusala cittas, often with lobha. The moments of thinking in a day are countless, and how little do we know about them, they pass unnoticed. Nina. op 04-07-2002 05:08 schreef <> op <>: > Hi guys, would it be correct to say thinking is always javana and never > vipaka? > > thanks, Larry 14171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] how little we know Dear Ranil, That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep understanding of characteristics that appear now. I also find that every time I have a discussion, like we had in India, I learn something, I understand just a tiny bit more. Should't we be grateful for that tiny bit? If we think that we have nothing to learn, then we are really stuck. It is true we are stuck with concepts and worrying unnecessarily, that is about stories which do not exist. If there is awareness just of what appears now, no worry in the world. But how difficult. With appreciation, Nina. op 04-07-2002 17:00 schreef ranil gunawardena op <>: > > Dhamma points which I was impressed: > The boiling down of everything to paramaththa dhamma. and how much we ignore > it. I mean we all know that every thing is citta, chetacika, rupa and > nirvana. But the discussion showed that how much we ignore it and are stuck > in concepts and worrying unnecessarily. > > And I got a chance to know how little understanding on the Dhamma I > have. I would realy like to attend an Abi Dhamma class by K. Sujin. 14172 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re:walking, cankamana op 04-07-2002 17:54 schreef Howard op Howard: Jon said: Do the texts, for example, speak of >> slow walking (with or without 'noting with focus the foot placements' etc) >> as a practice, as a *means to* the arising of understanding? How does >> noting one's foot placements fit in with 'the all'/the khandhas that the >> suttas say are to be known? The texts are the ultimate touchstone for >> right or wrong view. We cannot safely rely on our own intuition or anyone >> else's assurance on this. >> > ========================== Howard: I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts certainly > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from the > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking > meditation in the open air." > Dear Howard and all, My translation PTs does not have walking meditation: walking about in the open air, and this must be in Pali: cankamana. The Buddha himself and also the monks had to change posture after sitting for a long time, that was good for the body. We read this in the "daily routine of the Buddha". The monks knew that there can be mindfulness in any posture, thus, also when walking: there are only nama and rupa. There could also be talk on Dhamma while walking. We read in the K, II, on Elements 2, § 15 Conduct, that the monks walked in groups, and that each group consisted of monks with the same inclinations, such as righteous converse or strict observance, etc. It was all very natural, nothing formal about it, no rules. I thought of cankamana when walking to the supermarket, but I am so heedless. There are nama and rupa, but I forget. Jon would say: what does it matter. We better learn that whatever arises is only a conditioned reality and beyond control. No good trying to be aware or to slow down. Besides, I have a lot of work to do how could I slow down? You also wrote in a recent post about Goenka: Howard: I also have puzzled over the emphasis on physical sensations. In current writings by Goenka et al, the claim seems to be that all elements of experience have an effect in that area, and it can serve as a kind of central focus point. To my mind, it is, in fact, a zeroing in on a limited area of experience, albeit an important one, and one via which enliughtenment factors can develop. I also question whether this practice actually constitutes vedanupassana. I suspect it might be better described as a form of "internal" kayanupassana. On that issue, I have long been confused on the preceise meaning of 'vedana'. Sometimes it seems to mean, as with Goenka, bodily sensation perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, but at other times it seems to mean the very experience of plesantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality itself, as opposed to the physical sensation. The suttas don't clarify this sufficiently for me. What about Abhidhamma? Feelings are so clearly classified and also mentioned in the suttas: The feelings accompanying bodyconsciousness are vipaka: painful or pleasant, and in addition: pleasant (mental) feeling which can be kusala or akusala, unpleasant feeling always accompanying dosa, thus akusala, and indifferent feeling, which can accompany the sense-cognitions other than body-consciousness, and also kiriyacittas, and also kusala citta or akusala citta. As Sarah recently pointed out, it is difficult to distinguish between painful feeling and for example body-consciousness, and the unpleasant feeling arising shortly afterwards. We can use the word sensation, but this is not precise enough. I understand your phenomenological point of view: only what can be experienced counts, no abstractions. But, if we would think of a central focus point or a zeroing in on a limited area of experience, is there not a danger of the clinging to self, namely that point we take for mine? This is bound to happen to all of us, when there is awareness of a rupa in the body. Is there not a danger of limiting the objects of awareness? So long as we are not a sotapanna this wrong view has not been eradicated, and it can take on many forms like Mara, which we do not detect at all. It is so treacherous I find. Even those who are so advanced that they realize the arising and falling away of nama and rupa can have the vipassana upakilesa: O this insight, O this calm, how wonderful. Then they get stuck. At breakfast Lodewijk and I listened to a tape I had made of Bhikkhu Dhammadharo: he talked about the old self so deeply engrained. You remember we talked about him on this forum, he passed away in a car accident. I quote what he wrote to me in a letter: This is bound to happen and we better be alert to it. There is a danger here we should not underestimate. You also mentioned in the context of slowing down, awareness, and what is sati: Howard: The main thing, however, which I would like to see clarified, however, is the meaning of 'awareness' in what I have quoted by you above. It doesn't seem that it could mean vi~n~nana/citta, for that is available all the time. Can it mean sati? That strikes me as more probable. I would suppose that in an early "training phase", doing things more slowly could aid in the building of sati, but I also think that once a certain level of sati is in place, it is that, itself, which subjectively "slows things down" and leads to yet further sati. I'd be interested in hearing yours and others comments on this. Nina: As you say, awareness is not vi~n~naana. It has to be satisampaja~n~na, sati and panna that understands a characteristic that appears. If it is only sati but no panna, what is the use? Understanding characteristics of realities is the goal. Therefore, there should be a firm foundation understanding of what are exactly the objects of satipatthana: nama and rupa now, nothing else. Not you, but sati and panna do it all. We understand this in theory, but, without our noticing it, self creeps in, is that not true? Pittfalls all the time. Best wishes and with appreciation, from Nina. 14173 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi Sarah, thanks for your tidy list of responses. One further question. With regard to the CMA quote on desirable and undesirable objects of vipaka cittas: 1. why are there no mind door vipaka cittas? 2. how can the bare data of sensory sensations be desirable or undesirable? Red isn't particularly desirable or undesirable but blood is. thanks, hope your wrist is better Larry 14174 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi Nina, I was wondering about kamma and accumulations. Would it be correct to say, if an akusala javana citta is _not_ acted on, there will be no kamma but there will be accumulations of the akusala cittas? If an akusala javana citta *is* acted on there will be _both_ accumulations and kamma? thanks, Larry 14175 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi, Larry - You raise two interesting questions, Larry. I'm going to give my opinions. That's all they are, opinions, not based on Abhidhamma, but only on my own experience and my "common sense", which is likely to be in error! ;-). In a message dated 7/5/02 5:47:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Sarah, thanks for your tidy list of responses. One further question. > With regard to the CMA quote on desirable and undesirable objects of > vipaka cittas: > > 1. why are there no mind door vipaka cittas? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I caanot believe that there are not! Surely memories, thoughts, feelings, and emotions arise in the mind as vipaka. ------------------------------------------------------- > > 2. how can the bare data of sensory sensations be desirable or > undesirable? Red isn't particularly desirable or undesirable but blood > is. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I think is the following: The sense datum (of red, or rose-odor, or wind-sound, or an emotion such as fear, or a memory etc) arises. In response to that there automatically arises a (possibly subtle) bodily sensation (rupa), and that sensation, due either to physical wiring (for example in the case of pain), or due to habituated predispositions (kamma) is felt (vedana) as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. The bottom line, as I see it, is that certain sensations are experienced in a fairly uniform way for given lifeforms (e.g., pain for humans - of course, masochists would be exceptions), but other sensations are experienced idiosyncratically from individual to individual, depending on that individual's kammic accumulations. In any case, you are right - there is nothing inherently "pleasant" in redness. This is how I see it. --------------------------------------------------- > > thanks, hope your wrist is better > > Larry > ============================= With metta, and too many opinions ;-)), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14176 From: <> Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi Howard, I didn't completely follow what you said about desirable and undesirable results. These terms (desirable/undesirable) come from a commentary cited in CMA and refer to 'conventional values'. The notion of conventional values is obviously problematic, but, that aside, I'm trying to get someone to say that kamma results are complex events, like a comet falling out of the sky and hitting me on the head. Not just simple sensations like hardness. 'Citta process' doesn't seem to accommodate a complex event, like you can't talk about making bread with atoms. Maybe we need to move up to a larger scale of organization. Larry 14177 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 8:41am Subject: Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults Dear All, I've been listening to a Bhikkhu Bodhi tape on Rebirth and Kamma, and it made me wonder - Are there any scriptures about 'differing levels of responsibility' with Kamma? For example, if a child of seven years goes around with a rock killing many crabs on the beach, or steals something from a shop.... In most countries, the Law recognises various ages when the level of understanding of actions and consequences is more/less fully developed. I think in my country, a child cannot 'legally' be made responsible for any crime under the age of seven (and even after that is hugely protected, records suppressed, sentencing usually withheld), boys and girls cannot 'legally' agree to sexual acts under the age of sixteen, people cannot 'legally' marry, buy real estate, obtain credit, or vote in elections under the age of eighteen. People with intellectual impairment are not subject at law to the same consequences for their action as those not so impaired, as in the interests of fairness and justice, it is realised they don't have comprehension equal to that of unimpaired adults. I know there is a saying (according to the the last police constable I was having a lively discussion with about a faulty tail light) ... "Madam, ignorance of the state of your car, or of the Law, is no excuse - there is still a fine." Do children and people with an intellectual impairment attract the same kammic results for the same actions, as mentally competent adults? If you don't consider that you are doing, saying, thinking something wrong - what is the process that 'decides' right and wrong, and 'stores' the result for future consequences? I've always had difficulty with this 'process that decides'. How does the process take into consideration, not only the things mentioned above, but the different cultures and time periods? Consider two people, one lived centuries ago in a culture that approved of infanticide as a method of contraception, the other lives today in a culture that strictly opposes such a thing, but this person still feels driven to commit a similar act; the first one may regard what was done as just an unfortunate but necessary part of life, the second one may suffer all sorts of fear, guilt and remorse. Both commit the same act - one 'knows' the action is right and feels no unease, one has been taught it isn't and suffers. The attribution of responsibility of kammic acts seems so relentless, and I wonder if anything softens it? metta, Christine 14178 From: Num Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:32am Subject: Patisambhidamagga 2 Dear all, Sarah: Hope you get well soon. I have not read every single mail on dsg, so I have no clue of what's happened. PTSM is way above my head as well, but I do think that this is an extremely precious discourse. The intricate detail of clear comprehension of dhammas is minutely sliced and digested here. Nina: I really appreciate your remark. Thanks. There are 2 more sessions from the tape, then I will try update PTSM weekly (if conditions permit) as the session by A.Supee. Best wishes, Num ******************************* Path of Discrimination/Patisambhidamagga Cont' summary of PTSM introduction (p. 15-32) The introduction (gantharambhakatha) then refers to Vibhanga. According to suttantabha_jani_ya (fine classification according to suttas) patisambhidavibanga, there are 5 aspects of PTSM. 1.Saccava_ra (truths section) 2.Hetuva_ra (causes section) 3.Dhammava_ra (dhamma section) 4.Paccayakarava_ra (paticcasamuppada section) 5.Pariyattidhammava_ra (discourse section) 1) Saccava_ra: Discriminating panna in dukkha is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in causes of dukkha (lobha) is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in nibbana is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in magga is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all dhammas is patibhana-patisambhida. (Dukkha is a consequence, lobha is a cause, nibbana is the consequence, magga is the cause). 2) Hetuva_ra: Discriminating panna in dhammas, which are causes, is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in consequences of causes, is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all those n~a_na is patibhana-patisambhida. 3) Dhammava_ra: Discriminating panna in dhammas, which have already arisen, occurred or manifested, is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in dhammas, which cause those arisen, occurred or manifested dhamma is dhammapatisambhida. . Discriminating panna in using language for those dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all those n~a_na is patibhana-patisambhida. 4) Paccayakarava_ra: Discriminating panna in aging and death (jara and moran.a) is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in causes of aging and death is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in cessation of aging and death is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in causes of cessation of aging and death is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all those n~a_na is patibhana-patisambhida (this section deals with paticcasamuppada. Jara, and moran.a are consequences, avijja is the cause). 5) Pariyattidhammava_ra: Discriminating panna in discourse of the Buddha is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in the meaning of discourses is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all those n~a_na is patibhana-patisambhida. 2 levels of patisambhida: sekhabhumi (sotapattimagga/pala-arahatmagga) and asekhabhumi (arahatpala). 5 factors of clearness/'purity (visada): adhigama (attainment of arahat level), pariyatti (studying the Buddha teaching), savana (listening), paripuccha (well-rounded examination and cross-examination, literally: well-rounded asking/analyzing), and pubbayoga (previous practice of vipassana). Then the book mentioned the importance of samma_dit.th.i as the preceding factor of n~a_na. "one knows samma-dit.th.i as samma_dit.th.i, micchdit.th.i as micchadit.th.i. That knowledge is samma-dit.th.i. Then repeat for one knows samma…(another 7 magga factors) as samma…, knows miccha…(another 7 magga factors) as miccha… That knowledge is samma…. The writer (also A.Supee) then emphasizes on importance of n~a_na(panna) by pointing out that is the reason why the book of patisambhidamagga is starting with n~a_nakatha. The introduction then ended with a quote from san.gi_tisutta, dighanikaya/patikavaggo, from the section of fours: 4 factors of attaining sotapana. 1) Association with the wise (sappurissam.sevo) 2) dhamma listening (saddhammasasavanam.) 3) proper/wise/thorough consideration (yonisomanasikaro) <>, and 4) practice dhamma according to dhamma (dhammanudhammapatipat.t.i) << from atthakatha: this refers to 4 satipatthana, ekayanamagga, pubbabha_gamagga(magga at the beginning)>>. <> 14179 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > it made me wonder - Are there any scriptures about > 'differing levels > of responsibility' with Kamma? For example, if a > child of seven > years goes around with a rock killing many crabs on > the beach, or > steals something from a shop.... The scriptures talk about the relative severity of kammic fruit for various types of actions, but probably not to the extent that you're asking. On the polar extreme of heinous crimes, there is probably some commentary analyzing the nuances of kammic results, but for misdemeanors and less severe crimes, probabably not too much is said. To me, lack of in depth commentary on kamma makes sense because : 1) kamma is complex: conditioned by so many factors, including a time feedback loop component, that it's impossible to understand completely, if only for the practical reason that there are infinite causal factors and no time to examine the proportionate effect of each one. The best we can do is know which causal factors have the greatest influence on action. 2) Because computers and cpu's, the brains of computers can perform complex tasks, there's an illusion of intelligence. My computer architecture professor used to frequently say in class, "There is no little man inside your computer." Similarly, there is a tendency for people to want to believe there is some kind of intelligent force behind kamma. To paraphrase my professor, there is no board of kamma directors who sit behind every action and deliberate over the subtle nuances of the causal factors and declare a judgement of what type of fruit results. The complexity of kamma is due to the number of input factors that condition it, but we need not be overwhelmed or frustrated by the inability to completely understand all of the subtle nuances. It's only natural due to complexity. 3) It's more important to focus on controlling those important causal factors that we have influence over, namely right view and right intention. By maximizing and fully developing our potential for right view and right intention, we know that much wholesome fruit will result from this, even though due to kammic complexity we don't know EXACTLY all the details and subtle nuances. The important thing is to fully understand: a) wholesome intentions and right view produce wholesome results b) wholesome intentions and WRONG view produce mixed results. This is an important corollary that buddhists often misunderstand, believing that wholesome intention is the most influential factor in kammic fruit. To give an extreme example, rednecks who hunt for sport with a wholesome intention of having some fun, with no explicit malice/unwholesome intention towards animals, are reaping boat loads of bad kamma due to wrong view. c) unwholesome intention + wrong view produces unwholesome results To recap: important thing is to develop wholesome intention and right view. Does it really matter that we don't fully understand the shape and form of the wholesome results that will inevitably follow? 4) Even for an enlightened being, they will unintentionally cause some harm while living in this world. That's dukkha. As for the relative demerits and nuances of unwholesome kamma, again, is it really important to know the degrees of undesirable conseqeuences? The important thing is that we know eliminating (to whatever extent) wrong view and wrong intention will minimize the harm we cause. > The attribution of responsibility of kammic acts > seems so relentless, > and I wonder if anything softens it? > My view is that at a micro level of operation, there is absolutely no mitigating or softening unwholesome kammic fruits. Kamma, like any other natural law, is not acting with an intelligent force behind it that recognizes higher level entities (justice, people, morality). To speak more plainly, the impersonal nature of kamma does not allow for us to do some "wholesome" action to cancel out an "unwholesome" action, as some interpretations of kammic law in various forms of religions might imply. But from a higher level of abstraction, there can be a perception of "softening" of unwholesome kammic fruit. For example, say we perform an abundance of wholesome action and relatively little unwholesome action, the results of the unwholesome action, although still there in full force, would have a proportionately less severe perceived impact. No cancellation of kamma taking place, no energy is magically created or destroyed, just a perception due to relative proportion is altered. On a slight tangent: Isn't it interesting how we always make judgements like: - I had a good day/bad day. - he's a good guy/bad guy - I'm in a good mood/bad mood - I'm having a good life/bad life. One of the consequences of dhamma practice is that I rarely experience these kinds of views any more. Attention to impermanence, dukkha, anatta has a way of making things soften, dissolve. How this insight relates to kammic fruit? My view and perception of kamma is shifting to a more low level, a more raw perception of a natural law acting one moment after another without the unnatural boundaries imposed by higher level abstractions like morality, justice, etc. Anatta isn't just about solidifed perception of "people" entities. Other entities like "morality", "justice", are also mental objects that we personify, solidify and cling to - contrary to the Buddha teaching us to not to see these entities "as I, mine, my self". -fk 14180 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Goggy I enjoyed reading your very informative reply to Christine. In your reply you mention the 5 benefits of walking meditation as given by the Buddha. As you may have seen, the subject of walking meditation has come up in another thread with Howard. Do you have a reference to the sutta where the 5 benefits are mentioned? I would like to read more about it. Thanks. Jon --- goglerr wrote: > Dear Group, > > Ch:May I touch on this topic that people are discussing under several > different subject headings - which still confuses me greatly? I often > read the discussions only to find myself no clearer at the end - > everyone makes such good points, so articulately. But this is not > just a philosophical discussion - this is essential knowledge, and > understanding of it can direct a person's life down a particular > path of practice. > > What does the Canon have to say regarding meditation? Is formal > sitting and walking meditation part of the essential, compulsory, > absolutely necessary, no other way to Nibanna teachings? > _____________________________________________ > G: Chris, let's go straight to your point. The Buddha mentioned > in > The Satipatthana Sutta (MN10), "This is the one–way path for > the > purication of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, > for the passing away of pain and displeasure, for the achievement of > the method (Path), for the realiazation of Nibbana, namely the 4 > foundation of Mindfulness". When the word `bhikkhu' > (monk) is > mentioned, it also include nun and lay folks. Many other parts of the > Canon, "Bhikkhus, these four foudations of mindfulness, when > developed and cultivated, are noble and emancipating; they lead the > one acts upon them to complete dectruction of suffering". Of > course, > they are also based upon the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 fold Path. We > have to get our sequence right. First, to realize the cessation of > dukkha, Nibbana, is to arouse mindfulness (which later penatrative > wisdom will develop) is the priority. > > Next, how to arouse the mindfulness? By the contemplation/observation > of the 4 foundation of mindfulness contemplation the body as body, > feeling as feeling, mind as mind and mind-objects as mind-objects. > > In what way or how should we contemplate them? The Buddha > continued `....(we should be) ardent (very diligent), fully > aware, > and mindful, having put away coveteouesness and grieft for the > world.' In means that we have to put forth our mental effort (not > lazy or care-less), with clarity of mind and able to `let go' > the > sensual desire and ill-will. This is not a question of in-control or > non-control or clinging to the idea of progress or even self. Rather, > the mechanics of paticcasamupada takes effect, simply, if this > arise/occur, that will arise/occur; if we put in the right effort, we > will arouse the right mindfulness, and the right mindfulness will > snow-ball to right liberation. > > Then, what must we do? Then the Buddha carry on to explain "Here > a > bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree or to an empty > hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, > and establish mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes > in and mindful he breathe out..." Nowadays, we have meditation > monasteries spread all over the world, which caters for anybody, may > it be monks or ordinary lay folks who are interested in meditation. > Then, the method to sit, that is called the lotus posture. This is > what we mean by `formal sitting'. It may not be that > comfortable for > many a westeners, but for easterners it's very natural for them. > Other ways we can use a bench or a chair. How about formal walking or > even other postures? The Buddha said `Again, bhikkhus, when > walking, > a bhikkhu undertsands: `I am walking'; when standing. he > understand: `I am standing'; when sitting, he understand > `I am > sitting'; when lying down, he understand `I am lying > down'; or he > understands acordingly however his body is disposed. The Buddha also > mentioned 5 benefits of walking meditation inother sutta. 1) good > stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 2) > strenghten the mental effort for overall practice 3) balacing between > sitting and walking 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 5) > builds durable concentration. Many disciples of the Buddha in the > Canon, they do walking meditation. Hmm....let's see. Sona Thera, > he > was to doing walking meditation vigorously until the Buddha > intsructed him to balance his mind. Elder Ananda was doing walking > meditation just before he attained full enlightenment. > > There are some people who say something like these `just be aware > of > our seeing, smelling, hearing , tasting , touching, and thinking or > whatever we are doing.', as in whatever we are doing in our daily > life. Well, they not wrong too. And the Buddha said `Again, > bhikkhus, > a bhikkhu is one who acts in full awareness when going forward and > returning, who acts in full awareness in looking ahead and looking > away, who acts in full awareness when extending or bending his arms, > who acts in full awareness when wearing his robes and carring his > outer robes and bowls (nowadays it means our clothing and attire), > who acts in full awareness when eating, drinking, consuming food, and > tasting; who acts in full awareness when defecating and urinating; > who acts in full awareness when walking, standing, sitting, falling > asleep, waking up, talking, or keeping silent.' Is it not that > easy > though, to keep the mind focus on the activities, more often than not > the mind wander off (unmindfully) to all sort of things. > > A good sense of basic morality and discpline through bodily, speech > and mind, are essential too. The Buddha laid down the 5 precepts as > the basic code of human conduct, not just as for the condusive for > social harmony but also acts as a foundation for mental cultivation. > Transgresing the basic code, will somehow eats into our conscience, > where remorse and regret will surface (someday, sometime!), shake and > waver the stability of the mind, and ultimately the mental hindrances > will have the upper hand, thus making the mental development > difficult. > > A journey into a thick dense forest, we need a knowledgeble guide. > The guide, he himself has gone through it all. He knew the traps, the > pit falls, the raging rivers, and with compassion, he instructs us to > avoid them, and walk that ancient path where elders of the old had > trodden. > `At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Saripautta apprached the Blessed > One...and said to him: > "Venerable sir, this is the entire holy life, that is, good > friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship." > "Good! Good! Sariputta! This is the entire holy life, Sariputta, > that > is, good friendship, good campanionship, good comradeship. When a > bhikkhu has a good friend, good companion, a good comrade, it is to > expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold > Path."' (SN 45:3) > And it is true, we need or seek a good spritual friend(s) to guide us > on our spiritual quest, especially the quest for Nibbana. At times, > the books may not help us that much. As in meditation, we need to > rely on a good friend/instructor/teacher – and I humbly say, this > is > compulsary. > > So as u see from here, not to say formal sitting or walking are > compulsory but they are very effective to develop mindfulness. But > mindfulness is one of the compulsary `ingredients' for > Nibbana. > _______________________________________________________ > Ch: Having recently had my 'consciousness raised' regarding my > defilements, I have been studying in this area. This led me to > read 'The Simile of the Cloth' and 'The Discourse on Effacement' at > http://www.gangessangha.org/Cloth.html by Nyanaponika Thera. > In verses 4 to 11 of The Discourse on Effacement (effacement being > the radical removal of detrimental qualities of mind), > Nyanaponika Thera says: > (Secs. 4-11) The eight meditative attainments lift the human > consciousness to sublime heights of refinement; yet, in the case of > each, the Buddha emphatically says that they are not states of > effacement, as he understands them. They can effect only temporary > subsidence of defilements, and if unsupported by mature virtue and > insight, they cannot penetrate deep enough into the recesses of the > mind for a radical removal of moral and intellectual defilements. It > comes as a kind of anti-climax that after mentioning those sublime > meditative attainments, the Buddha now speaks (in Sec. 12) of such > quite "ordinary and earth-bound" ethical qualities as harmlessness, > and ascribes to them, and not to the meditative absorptions, the > capacity of leading to effacement." > Would it be right to say that this means that Insight and Sila are > essential, not Samatha? > _________________________________________________ > G: When the Bodhisatta searching for the enlightenment during his 6 > wandering years, he met two ascetics by the name of Alara Kalama and > Uddaka Ramaputta. The former attained the 7th stage of Jhana and the > latter attained highest, the 8th stage. But both of them was not > enlightened. Why? They don't have Insights. > We need sila, samadhi and panna for the right liberation. Samatha > meditation, if we cultivate it, is extremely helpful, comparative to > one who doesn't have. It can suppress a lot of hindrances of the > mind. Some people have very high degree of lust, anger, mental > lethargy, too much thinking or doubts, which they can't observe > any > paramattha dhamma at all. Therefore they need some > `tranquilizers'. > But then it only a mean to the end, and not the end itself. After > attaining some degree of concentration, we have to `switch' > object, > from a conceptual object to a paramattha object which is the 5 > Aggregates, that where's Vipassana comes into play. Samatha and > Vipassana complementing each other in many ways. > ________________________________________________________ > Ch:My understanding may be wrong and I would welcome corrections - > but isn't our 'job' to root out and eradicate as many of the > defilements as possible? If this is so, wouldn't the most urgent task > in a person's life, taking priority over everthing else, be this > eradication or effacement of the detrimental qualities of mind. I > have a strong sense of how little time there could be for any of us, > and how precious what time we have is. Wouldn't anything that > doesn't directly lead towards Nibbana be just a pleasant waste of > this scarce time? A clinging to a self, to feelings, to the idea of > controlling progress? > ______________________________________________ > G: The Buddha said `All worldlings are mad'. Worldlings means > those > who have not attain any stages of santity. We are still bounded by > the cords of sensual desire, lust, anger, hatred, vengence, jealousy, > pride, ego, `I', views, etc. Aren't we `mad'? The > Buddha also said `I > only teach dukkha and the end of dukkha'. The end of the day, we > should seek the `End', the eradication of all defilement and > the end > of samsara. But then....each one of us have a different pace due so > many seen and unseen factors, may it be our parami, sense of urgency, > way of life, tendencies, personality, defilement, kamma, understading > etc. It all depend on us, and no, not the idea of controlling or > whatever, it just a matter of `if you do it, you will get > it'. > __________________________________________________ > I know this subject has been discussed many times on this List, on > such a vital issue, surely the answer should be clear cut, this is > what the Buddha meant, this is how it is necessary to practice........ > > metta, > Christine > ________________________________________________ > That's all for now, Chris----byee > > Goglerr 14181 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults I just remembered a couple of nifty things: 1) the complexity of the full working of kamma is one of the "imponderables", things that the Buddha discouraged us from speculating or overanalyzing or else we'd go mad. 2) the noble 8fold factor of right effort is awesome: If practiced as intended, 24/7, it automatically has the effect of maximizing wholesome kamma and minimizing unwholesome kamma, in proportion of course to how well the other 7 factors of the path are developed. Had I remembered this earlier, I could have spared you all my long winded original response. -fk 14182 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/5/02 6:46:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Howard, I didn't completely follow what you said about desirable and > undesirable results. These terms (desirable/undesirable) come from a > commentary cited in CMA and refer to 'conventional values'. =============================== I took your questions to pertain to the objects of kammically resultant mindstates (and I understand all discernments of objects not directly volitionally produced as involving kamma vipaka to some degree), and whether or not they are inherently desirable/undesirable. My position is that no such objects are inherently desirable or undesirable - it all depends on our predispositions. First of all, I take 'desirable' to really mean typically experienced as pleasant, and 'undesirable' to really mean typically experienced as unpleasant. Now, actually, what I think happens is that what we actually find pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral are bodily sensations, sensations following upon contacts with paramattha dhammas of various sorts. We then associate such affective response (of pleasure, displeasure, or neutrality) with, first, the sensations, then the dhammas (sights, sounds, tastes, odors, touches, thoughts/memories/emotions) that produced the sensations, and, then, derivatively, with conventional objects mentally contructed from those paramattha dhammas, the conventional objects being seen as desirable (when the sensation is felt as pleasant), undesirable (when the sensation is felt as unpleasant), or as neutral (when the sensation is felt as neutral). My position is that what we actually and directly find pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral are bodily sensations (which we then associate first with the conditioning objects, and then with conventional objects). For example, we experience pain from a bee sting. The pain is felt as unpleasant, and we then think of the sharp touch that caused the pain (i.e., the bee sting) and the bee, itself, as undesirable. Or we experience rapture after attaining the first jhana, the rapture being felt as pleasant, and we then respond by considering both the rapture and the jhana as desirable. Or we experience an odd tingling and warmth sensation in the heart/throat/neck area after hearing (and understanding) the sounds of being complemented by someone of the opposite sex. If that is our make-up, we feel this sensation as pleasant, and we respond by considering the tingling and warmth, and, secondarily, the sounds heard, and, thirdly, both the complement and the complementer as all being "desirable". But the core of the whole process is in feeling sensations as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, and my main point was that *which* sensations are felt as pleasant, which as unpleasant, and which as neutral, is due to kammic accumulations or predispositions, and are not *inherently* one or the other of these. I hope this clarifies my thoughts a bit. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14183 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight Dear Dan, There is a lot of material, research and many helpful references in your 2 posts. There are also many areas that it would be useful to discuss further and I’m just wondering where to start (and also hoping others will be picking up points for discussion). As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday: “That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep understanding of characteristics that appear now”. ..... When Nina or someone else we respect says this, it may sound like they are just saying it or being modest. Or we may think that even if it’s like that for them, we’ve had some particular vipassana insights or other experiences confirmed by our studies. I’ll never forget the shock when I first heard friends like Nina saying that “we don’t even understand seeing or visible object at this moment”. With this in mind, I’d like to look at your comments about ‘tender insight’ first. (aside to Christine - like your shampoo and conditioning distraction, tender insight also makes me think of the book “Tender is the Night”.) Sorry, Dan;-) --- onco111 wrote:> > In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX > 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of > phenomena such as .... When we read these quotes about the “beginner”, we have to read them in the full context of the development of insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as beginning stages or ‘tender insight’ (tiirana vipassanaa) to differentiate them from ‘insight as power’ (balava vipassanaa). However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the second stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent without any ignorance or doubt.At the third stage, panna knows the rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling away.In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, noticing or focussing on these phenomena. A.Sujin gives a good summary of the stages of insight in “Survey of Paramattha Dhammas” too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... > With insight? > "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, > methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics > [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to > him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being > previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they > are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like > dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), > like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an > awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage > (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, > like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. > > "At this point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is > known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104] .... We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I’m discussing with Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn’t the clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa in practice without any doubt, then it’s impossible to really understand these more refined levels of wisdom. .... > "And now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, > ten imperfections of insight might arise in him. ...illumination due > to insight...knowledge due to insight...rapturous happiness due to > insight...tranquillity due to insight...bliss due to > insight...faith...well-exerted energy...well-founded > mindfulness...equanimity...attachment due to insight." [Vism XX 105- > 122]. > > [An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all these 'due to > insight' comments, I wonder about the translation of the first > line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, > ten imperfections of insight might arise in him." The translation has > a sense of "Once someone officially becomes a beginner of insight > (i.e. after he has the insights discussed on the previous pages), a > number of phenomena might arise in the course of meditation. These > phenomena are to be reckoned as imperfections of insight." In other words, does the "with this tender insight" refer to > the person or the occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on > that... "Athassa imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa > vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)] ..... Dan, I’ll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. Meanwhile, surely the discussion is about the conditions for these kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not arise at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why it is ‘tender’ insight and not a power. Remember, only the sotapanna is on the path of ‘no return’, so to speak. The person ‘with this tender insght’ refers to the level of vipassana. Person or sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, if I misunderstand any of your comments here > > When formations are seen with insight thus as anicca, anatta, and > dukkha, there is no way calm does not arise. With the calm there may > also arise any of a number of mental phenomena. These phenomena may > also arise from a manufactured calm in the course of, say, a Goenka > or Mahasi meditation retreat. But their arising may or may not have > anything to do with insight. When they are induced by insight, > Buddhagosa calls them "imperfections". When they arise from in the > course of a meditation retreat, they are frequently called something > like "way stations". Whether they arise due to insight or due to a > manufactured calm, they have tremendous seductive power to pull the > meditator away from the path toward attachment. This is especially > true when the insight is weak, or the phenomena arise more from a > manufactured calm and less from insight. ..... A few comments in brief: 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 2. ‘Imperfections’ or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for akusala. 3. What is ‘manufactured’ calm? If the citta is not kusala, even though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), there cannot be calm. 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop. 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to cling and ‘distract’. 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest of your snipped post. ***** I’ve already said too much, I’m sure and I’ve possibly misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't a condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, but wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first. Sarah ===== 14184 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 3:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Different practices Frank (and Christine) I agree with the thrust of your post below and particularly where you point out that "the highest form of honoring the Buddha and Dhamma is developing and practicing the 8fold path". However, not all acts that we would tend to regard as ritualistic are necessarily that. The other day I came across the following passage in the commentary to the Samannaphala Sutta (D.2) in the translation by Bh. Bodhi, 'The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship' (p. 101), where it mentions the circumambulation of a cetiya and veneration at a Bodhi tree. Both the cetiya and the Bodhi tree are seen as representative of the Buddha himself (I believe cetiyas are generally built over relics of the Buddha or some other token of him). Chris, you may be interested in the reference to the 4 points of the cetiya, which we wondered about at the cetiya at Anuradhapura (but no, I have no idea why 4 points for a large one, 8 points for a small one!). "At the time for the almsround he rises and keeping in mind his meditation subject, he takes his robe and bowl, leaves his dwelling place, and goes to the terrace of the cetiya, still attending to the meditation subject. … Having climbed to the terrace, he should circumambulate the cetiya three times, venerating it at four points if it is a large cetiya and at eight points if it is a small one. "After venerating the cetiya, the bhikkhu should go to the terrace of the Bodhi tree and venerate the Bodhi tree, displaying a humble manner just as if he were in the presence of the Exalted Buddha himself. Having thus venerated both the cetiya and the Bodhi tree, … he robes himself just outside the village and enters the village for alms." Jon --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Christine, > I'm pretty sure the Buddha and his original > followers did not wear cotton wrist bracelets. They > also didn't have statues of Buddha that they > circumambulated. > Many of these peripheral ceremonial aspects of > "buddhism" (chanting, incense, string bracelets, > fortune telling, praying for protection, blessings) > probably originated and evolved to ensure the > institutional survival of Buddhism competing against > other relgions purporting to offer protection by > higher powers, blessings, etc. In a way, these > peripheral elements may have played a strong role in > the longevity and survival of Buddhism. > I'm from the school of thinking that the highest > form of honoring the Buddha and Dhamma is developing > and practicing the 8fold path. If burning incense, > wearing string bracelets, etc, is helpful in reminding > one to do that, then MAYBE it's useful for some people > to that extent, although my perception is that > reliance on rites and rituals is more likely to result > in empty excercises devoid of right view. I also can't > help pointing out that burning incense is bad for the > environment, a waste of resources, smells bad, is bad > for your lungs, and bad for the lungs of the people > around you. > As for the efficacy of mantra (having supernatural > powerful effects), I'm not necessarily skeptical as > many modern scientifically inclined buddhists tend to > be, but I view it the same way as I do supernormal > powers - it's not the goal of buddhism, and it's not > necessary to rely on that for liberation or developing > the 8fold path. > > -fk > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Dear All, … > > Another practice I participated in but didn't quite > > understand at the > > time, was walking around a stupa in a clockwise > > direction. On > > occasion we did this three times, and I was told > > this is an act of > > merit. Not really sure about this either, why it is > > considered an > > act of merit (say compared to offering service, food > > or money to > > others). Any information would be appreciated. > > > > metta, > > Christine 14185 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Dear Dan, Dan: “In the second case, there is a directed, purposefully cultivated one- pointedness arising from fixing the mind on a chosen object. In contrast, with the first casethe sign arises upon seeing a flower, or a white cloth, or the moon, or... The object spontaneously acts as a kasina when insight arises and when the characteristics of one- pointedness concentration are recognized because of previous cultivation. But what kind of insight could "spontaneously" give rise to the arising of the sign in an object seen? "Quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unprofitable things he enters upon and dwells in the first jhana." [Vbh.245, cited in Vism. IV, 79].” ***** I’ve only (unfairly, I know) taken one extract from your second post. Let me just add that with regard to the development of samatha, I think similar considerations apply to the development of vipassana. There cannot be the high levels of upacara samadhi or jhana without the right understanding of the object of calm and the basic development for a very long time first. (I agreed with your final comments about non-selection.) I’d like to share the following extract from a tape of K.Sujin which I listened to recently. I’ll be interested to hear any comments you have (and please re-quote any parts from your other messages if you wish): ***** “When there is some understanding that the wholesome and calm moments are so brief and infrequent, samatha bhavana can be developed by knowing which object can be a condition for calm. This is by understanding, not by wishing or focussing. By understanding the value of skilful cittas, it will be a condition for skilful reflections, such as thinking about others with metta. If there is concentrating on an object and wanting to develop more concentration, there is no detachment at these times from clinging and conceit. Samatha can only be developed when there is understanding more and more of how much attachment there is to sesnsuous objects. In other words, it’s not just the object that is important, but for it to be a moment of samatha bhavana, there must be right understanding (at the level of samatha) at that moment. There can be reflection on death with or without understanding of how it calms the mind. When the citta is kusala, there will be more and more calm which may lead to stages of wholesome concentration with calm and understanding. Again it has to be right from the very beginning. A moment of awareness is different from a moment with no awareness. Understanding knows the difference without any selection. By developing satipatthana and samatha, this is the way that we learn what our ‘nature’ is, what kind of carita (person) one is. It depends on individual accumulations whether metta or marana sati (recollection on death) or even reflection on earth or solidity will condition calm and kusala cittas. For example, with regards to earth, we fight just to get ‘solidity’. reflecting wisely on the importance we attach to ‘earth’ can be a condition for calm. Are we friendly and ready to help? Do we see the value of metta now?. There cannot be metta when there is craving. The deeds and speech may be the same, but without the attachment. Like a mother to child, without attachment. The purpose is to be detached. If we select breath, it suggests a wanting of that object. What is the purpose of concentrating on breath? It’s useless without panna, otherwise it merely conditions attachment.” ***** Sarah ===== 14186 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 4:22pm Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi Howard, --- Howard wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Okay, rupas. But what about tinglings, itches, pressures, and > pains? > Are these also rupas (and/or conceptually grouped pkgs of rupas) or are > these > vedana. Goenka et al seem to consider them vedana, but I suspect that is > > miscategorization. > ----------------------------------------------------- Interesting questions and a useful discussion. I think what we call the tinglings and pressures are rupas (esp. motion/pressure - air element). The pain is mostly vedana, dukkha. It’s called bodily feeling because, like the kaya vinnana (body consciousness) it accompanies, it is experiencing rupas at different parts of the body. In other words, they are conditioned by impact on the bodysense. Like we discussed with seeing consciousness, the body consciousness and painful feeling are akusala vipaka, immediately conditioned by the unpleasant object coming into range through the bodysense. Here the unpleasant object is the temperature (eg too hot, too cold), solidity (eg too hard, too soft) or pressure being experienced.The pleasant and unpleasant/painful bodily feelings only accompany kaya vinnana (body consciousness) and there cannot be indifferent feeling experiencing these rupas (unlike the other sense experiences, such as seeing, which are always acompanied by indifferent feeling, regardless of the object).. As you suggest, usually when we refer to tinglings or pressures or pains, we’re talking about ‘conceptually grouped packages’ (good expression) and it’s difficult to know the different phenomena precisely, but at least there can be the direct understanding of the distinction between concepts and realities and between namas and rupas. ..... > The> > > vedana (feelings) are nama accompanying the cittas at every moment. > Let me > > quote from a post I wrote a while ago to Manji: > > ***** > > When the feelings are summarised into 5 kinds (commonly), they are: > > > > a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) > > b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) > > c) happy feeling (somanassa) > > d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) > > e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay, but this is still partly ambiguous. Items c) and d) are > clear to > me, being mental feelings, being unambiguously on the "nama side". Items > a), > b), and e), however, could still be understood in more than one way. On > the > one hand, they could refer to various physical sensations *felt* as > pleasant, > unpleasant, or neutrally. ..... For a) and b) if there is the idea that they are ‘physical sensations *felt*’, it is wrong, to my understanding. They are namas, arising with body consciousness and do the feeling. They have no other function than to feel or experience the ‘taste’ of the rupas. With regard to e) indifferent feeling, this doesn’t arise when rupas are being experienced through the body-sense. ..... >On this reading, there would be *multitudes* > of > differing vedana - a huge aggregate. On the other hand, they could refer > > merely to instances of pleasantness, unpleasantness, and indifference > *conditioned* by sensory contact, with the instances all differing due > to the > differences in the sensory contacts that conditioned their arising. > (This > reading would also allow for a huge aggregate, but the differences in > instances is more indirect in this case, being based not on the feelings > > themselves, but on the conditioning contact.) I suspect that it is this > *latter* reading that was intended by the Buddha, but I don't find this > issue > crystal clear. ..... Certainly as there is such a variety of cittas, there is a great variety of vedana too and its importance is reflected by having its ‘own’ khandha. You’ve lost me with some of your other comments here. The vedana experiences the ‘taste’, and accompanies the cittas cognizing their objects as discussed. Phassa (contact) also accompanies each of these cittas too, contacting the object, of course. Let me know if I’ve misunderstood you. This has been helpful for me to reflect on. Sarah ===== 14187 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:15pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Shakti Thanks for telling us about your background and past interest in the dhamma. A very interesting story! I hope you'll stick around and share more. --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > > Dear Sarah, ... > On another note, Mr Goenka will be here in Missoula, Montana (where I > live) in a few days. He will pass thru Missoula as part of his North > American tour where he will travel thru different parts of Canada and > the USA. He will conduct a one day sit for old students and then that > night give a public talk at the university of Montana. I will be > sitting with about 50 other old students here. I will let you all know > what that was like later next week. I have heard that he will be > answering questions - so now maybe your opportunity. Any burning > questions?????? No *burning* questions for Mr Goenka, but several I would be very interested to hear his answers to. I have put one of them below. Naturally, it reflects my own understanding/biases rather than any part of his approach, and furthermore it won't be in the appropriate Goenka terminology, but I am sure you can see the thrust of the question and so be able to phrase it appropriately, if a chance arises. Thanks. Jon Q. What effect does awareness developed in previous lifetimes have on the arising of awareness in this lifetime (after we have met the teachings) and, in particular, on the likely objects of any awarness arising in this lifetime? Do different people have potentially different levels of awareness of different objects? 14188 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults Hi Frank, I really liked your post - IMHO you should write more posts, more often. Nothing special to comment on or question, yet. I smiled at the 'Board of Kamma Directors' - would that be a worse Office to hold than Moderator of a Yahoo List? :) I am still not settled in my mind about how the mechanism, procedure, protocol, process - call it what you will - for assessing and recording a 'persons' good and bad Intentional Action works. I think I need to do a little more reflection over what I have been taught on rebirth and paticcasamupadda, and what I am currently studying on Conditions. I don't really want to know what result follows which set of causes. I don't want to know how to evade consequences of my actions. But I want to be able to trust that what I have been taught is true, and works in a just, rational, logical, consistent manner. At this point, I do not feel that. You've been a good help though Frank, making me think more clearly, thanks. metta, Chris --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Chris, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > it made me wonder - Are there any scriptures about > > 'differing levels > > of responsibility' with Kamma? For example, if a > > child of seven > > years goes around with a rock killing many crabs on > > the beach, or > > steals something from a shop.... > > The scriptures talk about the relative severity of > kammic fruit for various types of actions, but > probably not to the extent that you're asking. On the > polar extreme of heinous crimes, there is probably > some commentary analyzing the nuances of kammic > results, but for misdemeanors and less severe crimes, > probabably not too much is said. > To me, lack of in depth commentary on kamma makes > sense because : > 1) kamma is complex: conditioned by so many factors, > including a time feedback loop component, that it's > impossible to understand completely, if only for the > practical reason that there are infinite causal > factors and no time to examine the proportionate > effect of each one. The best we can do is know which > causal factors have the greatest influence on action. > 2) Because computers and cpu's, the brains of > computers can perform complex tasks, there's an > illusion of intelligence. My computer architecture > professor used to frequently say in class, "There is > no little man inside your computer." Similarly, there > is a tendency for people to want to believe there is > some kind of intelligent force behind kamma. To > paraphrase my professor, there is no board of kamma > directors who sit behind every action and deliberate > over the subtle nuances of the causal factors and > declare a judgement of what type of fruit results. The > complexity of kamma is due to the number of input > factors that condition it, but we need not be > overwhelmed or frustrated by the inability to > completely understand all of the subtle nuances. It's > only natural due to complexity. > 3) It's more important to focus on controlling those > important causal factors that we have influence over, > namely right view and right intention. By maximizing > and fully developing our potential for right view and > right intention, we know that much wholesome fruit > will result from this, even though due to kammic > complexity we don't know EXACTLY all the details and > subtle nuances. The important thing is to fully > understand: > a) wholesome intentions and right view produce > wholesome results > b) wholesome intentions and WRONG view produce mixed > results. This is an important corollary that buddhists > often misunderstand, believing that wholesome > intention is the most influential factor in kammic > fruit. To give an extreme example, rednecks who hunt > for sport with a wholesome intention of having some > fun, with no explicit malice/unwholesome intention > towards animals, are reaping boat loads of bad kamma > due to wrong view. > c) unwholesome intention + wrong view produces > unwholesome results > > To recap: important thing is to develop wholesome > intention and right view. Does it really matter that > we don't fully understand the shape and form of the > wholesome results that will inevitably follow? > 4) Even for an enlightened being, they will > unintentionally cause some harm while living in this > world. That's dukkha. As for the relative demerits and > nuances of unwholesome kamma, again, is it really > important to know the degrees of undesirable > conseqeuences? The important thing is that we know > eliminating (to whatever extent) wrong view and wrong > intention will minimize the harm we cause. > > > > The attribution of responsibility of kammic acts > > seems so relentless, > > and I wonder if anything softens it? > > > > My view is that at a micro level of operation, there > is absolutely no mitigating or softening unwholesome > kammic fruits. Kamma, like any other natural law, is > not acting with an intelligent force behind it that > recognizes higher level entities (justice, people, > morality). To speak more plainly, the impersonal > nature of kamma does not allow for us to do some > "wholesome" action to cancel out an "unwholesome" > action, as some interpretations of kammic law in > various forms of religions might imply. > But from a higher level of abstraction, there can > be a perception of "softening" of unwholesome kammic > fruit. For example, say we perform an abundance of > wholesome action and relatively little unwholesome > action, the results of the unwholesome action, > although still there in full force, would have a > proportionately less severe perceived impact. No > cancellation of kamma taking place, no energy is > magically created or destroyed, just a perception due > to relative proportion is altered. > > On a slight tangent: > Isn't it interesting how we always make judgements > like: > - I had a good day/bad day. > - he's a good guy/bad guy > - I'm in a good mood/bad mood > - I'm having a good life/bad life. > > One of the consequences of dhamma practice is that I > rarely experience these kinds of views any more. > Attention to impermanence, dukkha, anatta has a way of > making things soften, dissolve. > How this insight relates to kammic fruit? My view > and perception of kamma is shifting to a more low > level, a more raw perception of a natural law acting > one moment after another without the unnatural > boundaries imposed by higher level abstractions like > morality, justice, etc. Anatta isn't just about > solidifed perception of "people" entities. Other > entities like "morality", "justice", are also mental > objects that we personify, solidify and cling to - > contrary to the Buddha teaching us to not to see these > entities "as I, mine, my self". > > -fk 14189 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Howard You don't say exactly which part of the sutta supports the phenomenalist approach, but my guess is that it would be the part that reads: "a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight;… . He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; … . He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; … . He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; … . Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'." According to the PTS translation of the same sutta (on which, by the way, the translation you have quoted is clearly based), 'conceived of' here is a translation of our old friend 'mannana'/'mannati' that we have discussed previously in the context of the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Discourse on the Root of Existence). As we know from that sutta, 'conceiving of' is something found in the untrained worldling but not in the enlightened ones. It means not seeing dhammas correctly. To me, this sutta is saying, the Buddha *knows about* what is, he doesn't *conceive about* anything. This I think is made clear by the final verse passage: "Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed As truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched In their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. Well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], This barb I beheld whereon humans are hooked, impaled. "I know, I see, 'tis verily so" -- no such clinging for the Tathagatas." Jon --- Howard wrote: > Hi, all - > > Having made a few references from time to time of how > phenomenalism > provides me with a helpful conceptual platform for viewing the Dhamma, I > > decided to post a copy of the Kalakarama Sutta, from the Book of Fours > in the > Anguttara Nikaya. To me, it is the premier example of "Buddhist > phenomenalism" (with the Bahiya Sutta taking the silver medal). The > following > is a tranlation I found on the net. [An entire booklet dvoted to a study > of > this sutta is Magic of the Mind, by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda.] The sutta > follows > (The bracketed material is *not* part of the sutta, but was added by the > > person who provided the web article from which this was taken): > ************************** The Kalakarama Sutta. [The Setting.] At one time the Exalted One was staying in Saketa in Kalaka's monastery. There the Exalted One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." "Revered Sir," replied those monks in assent. [As a Vedic or Greek god would talk, declaring omniscience,] the Exalted One said: "Monks, whatsoever in the world with its gods, Maras and Brahmas, among the progeny consisting of recluses and brahmins, gods and humans--whatsoever is seen, heard, sensed (sensations arising from taste, touch and smell), cognized, attained, sought after and pondered over by the mind--all that do I know. Monks, whatsoever in the world . . . of gods and humans, -- whatsoever is seen, . . . by the mind, -- that have I fully understood; all that is known to the Tathagata, but the Tathagata has not taken his stand upon it. [Now he denies alternatives to be construed as four in number, because the scripture is in the Book of Fours.] If I were to say: `Monks, whatsoever in the world ... of ... gods and humans--whatsoever is seen ... by the mind--all that I do not know'--it would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I both know it and know it not' -- that too would be a falsehood in me. If I were to say: `I neither know it nor am ignorant of it' --it would be a fault in me. [The Buddha now declares how one uses the senses while avoiding the `apprehender' and the`apprehended'.] Thus, monks, a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an `unseen', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-seeing', he does not conceive about a seer. He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; he does not conceive of `an unheard', he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-hearing', he does not conceive about a hearer. He does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; he does not conceive of a`thing-worth-sensing', he does not conceive about one who senses. He does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; he does not conceive of a `thing-worth-cognizing', he does not conceive about one who cognizes. Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'. Moreover, than he who is `Such', there is none other greater or more excellent, I declare."[Now verses on how ordinary persons use their senses, sometimes called `the fantasy of normalcy'.] Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed as truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched in their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. This barb I beheld, well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], whereon humans are hooked, impaled."I know, I see, `tis verily so"--no such clinging for the Tathagatas. ******************************** 14190 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Hi Larry, --- <> wrote: > Hi Sarah, thanks for your tidy list of responses. Hope your wrist appreciated the curbing of words;-) One further question. > With regard to the CMA quote on desirable and undesirable objects of > vipaka cittas: > > 1. why are there no mind door vipaka cittas? there are, eg tadarammana cittas, but not dvi panca vinnana cittas.Why not? Because eyes, ears and so on are not in the mind;-) (silly answer- I don’t know more) > > 2. how can the bare data of sensory sensations be desirable or > undesirable? Red isn't particularly desirable or undesirable but blood > is. Rather than talk about red or blood, can I just say that what is seen, heard or tasted at this moment is inherently desirable or undesirable. The quote from CMA was a good one. This is a favourite topic of Dan’s? How can we say/know the noise heard now is necessarily an undesirable one? We can’t know and there can be attachment to what is undesirable and the reverse. However, we give examples of ‘desirable’ and ‘undesirable’ objects, as would be commonly pereived or expected (eg noise of thunder, undesirable and so on) just to show there are these two categories. If we look at a pool of blood, we could say it’s akusala vipaka, seeing unpleasant visible object at the time. Really, only a Buddha (or key disciples, I should think?), could really know at any given moment. > > thanks, hope your wrist is better It’s making a good recovery. I took it out for a treat (and retreat from the computer) today and let it have a massage. The Chinese masseur was rather intrigued by the dirty bit of thread still left on the same wrist from the trip to Sri Lanka. He kept giving it perplexed looks, but I really didn’t think my poor Cantonese was up to explaining about Buddhist pirit ceremonies in Sri lanka and why I’ve become rather attached to this thread;-)... Anyway, the wrist enjoyed the outing. Sarah ===== 14191 From: sarahdhhk Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 7:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults Hi Chris & Frank, --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Frank, > > I really liked your post - IMHO you should write more posts, more > often. > Nothing special to comment on or question, yet. I smiled at > the 'Board of Kamma Directors' - would that be a worse Office to hold > than Moderator of a Yahoo List? :) Good to see you both in such witty form;-) S 14192 From: Ruth Klein Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 7:54pm Subject: introduction Hello. I joined this group yesterday and have been amazed at the number and depths of the messages received so far! Just for that I felt it better to introduce myself, rather than lurk - even though I probably won't have much to post later. I have been slowly coming around to Buddhist teachings. It's taken me almost 3 years (talk about wading in at the shallow end!) and I keep exploring. The past four months I have really committed myself to practice, though not so much study. Later this summer I will be going on my first retreat - at Wat Metta in CA. I joined this group while searching for a sangha of support; I'm travelling for the summer and feel cut off from my home community. Well, I'll be around, reading more than anything... asking questions... Namaste, Ruth 14193 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation Hi, Sarah - I'll excerpt and reply in context to two parts of the following post of yours. (By in large, I think we pretty much have the same understanding on this issue.) 1) You write: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting questions and a useful discussion. I think what we call the tinglings and pressures are rupas (esp. motion/pressure - air element). The pain is mostly vedana, dukkha. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I tend to disagree on this, though I'm far from certain. I think that pains come in a wide variety, in terms of both degree and kind. I think that they are rupas. Pains of some kinds, particularly of light to moderate intensity can be experienced (even by "normal" people ;-) as pleasant. Even intense pain can be experienced by some people in some contexts as pleasant. What sort of pain, and how much, will be felt as pleasant,unpleasant, or neutral seems to be a very individual matter. I tend to think that the experiencing of pain as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is the vedanic element, not the pain itself, which would be rupa. I stand to be corrected on this. I certainly can see the *possibility* that, for example, a feeling of tremendous crushing pressure and heaviness in the chest (from a heart attack) would be the rupa, and the pain could be the associated vedana. However, this just doesn't quite match my experience of pain. I can easily distinguish between crushing pressure and heaviness, on the one hand, and actual physical pain (which *hurts*), with *both* of these being completely physical, completely rupic (though, of course, discerned by vi~n~nana) and "tasted" with the vedana of unpleasantness. --------------------------------------------------------------- It’s called bodily feeling because, like the kaya vinnana (body consciousness) it accompanies, it is experiencing rupas at different parts of the body. In other words, they are conditioned by impact on the bodysense. Like we discussed with seeing consciousness, the body consciousness and painful feeling are akusala vipaka, immediately conditioned by the unpleasant object coming into range through the bodysense. Here the unpleasant object is the temperature (eg too hot, too cold), solidity (eg too hard, too soft) or pressure being experienced.The pleasant and unpleasant/painful bodily feelings only accompany kaya vinnana (body consciousness) and there cannot be indifferent feeling experiencing these rupas (unlike the other sense experiences, such as seeing, which are always acompanied by indifferent feeling, regardless of the object).. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 2) You write: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >On this reading, there would be *multitudes* > of > differing vedana - a huge aggregate. On the other hand, they could refer > > merely to instances of pleasantness, unpleasantness, and indifference > *conditioned* by sensory contact, with the instances all differing due > to the > differences in the sensory contacts that conditioned their arising. > (This > reading would also allow for a huge aggregate, but the differences in > instances is more indirect in this case, being based not on the feelings > > themselves, but on the conditioning contact.) I suspect that it is this > *latter* reading that was intended by the Buddha, but I don't find this > issue > crystal clear. ..... Certainly as there is such a variety of cittas, there is a great variety of vedana too and its importance is reflected by having its ‘own’ khandha. You’ve lost me with some of your other comments here. The vedana experiences the ‘taste’, and accompanies the cittas cognizing their objects as discussed. Phassa (contact) also accompanies each of these cittas too, contacting the object, of course. Let me know if I’ve misunderstood you. This has been helpful for me to reflect on. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry I was unclear here. I was attempting to lay out the two alternative views of "vedana" here. The first of these , let's call it the "Goenka view", sees an aggregate of thousands upon thousands of categories of vedana, each of which is a bodily sensation such as an itch, tingle, pain, subtle vibration, etc, with each *perceived* as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, but it being the sensations themselves, and not the affective flavor, that are the vedana. The second of these, let's call it the "traditional view", sees the aggregate of vedana as consisting of instances of pleasant "taste", unpleasant "taste", and neutral "taste" conditioned by thousands of alternative bodily sensations (all rupa) such as the "itch, tingle, pain, subtle vibration, etc" enumerated above, and considered there as vedana. In this view, the conditioning sensations are rupa, and it is only the resulting affective "taste" that is vedana. I suspect that it is this "traditional view" what the Buddha actually presented. The two views are *close* to interchangeable, possibly because it is so hard for us to sort out and separate bodily sensation from the associated affective taste. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/6/02 4:23:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- Howard wrote: > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > Okay, rupas. But what about tinglings, itches, pressures, and > > pains? > > Are these also rupas (and/or conceptually grouped pkgs of rupas) or are > > these > > vedana. Goenka et al seem to consider them vedana, but I suspect that is > > > > miscategorization. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Interesting questions and a useful discussion. I think what we call the > tinglings and pressures are rupas (esp. motion/pressure - air element). > The pain is mostly vedana, dukkha. It’s called bodily feeling because, > like the kaya vinnana (body consciousness) it accompanies, it is > experiencing rupas at different parts of the body. In other words, they > are conditioned by impact on the bodysense. Like we discussed with seeing > consciousness, the body consciousness and painful feeling are akusala > vipaka, immediately conditioned by the unpleasant object coming into range > through the bodysense. Here the unpleasant object is the temperature (eg > too hot, too cold), solidity (eg too hard, too soft) or pressure being > experienced.The pleasant and unpleasant/painful bodily feelings only > accompany kaya vinnana (body consciousness) and there cannot be > indifferent feeling experiencing these rupas (unlike the other sense > experiences, such as seeing, which are always acompanied by indifferent > feeling, regardless of the object).. > > As you suggest, usually when we refer to tinglings or pressures or pains, > we’re talking about ‘conceptually grouped packages’ (good expression) and > it’s difficult to know the different phenomena precisely, but at least > there can be the direct understanding of the distinction between concepts > and realities and between namas and rupas. > ..... > > The> > > > vedana (feelings) are nama accompanying the cittas at every moment. > > Let me > > > quote from a post I wrote a while ago to Manji: > > > ***** > > > When the feelings are summarised into 5 kinds (commonly), they are: > > > > > > a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) > > > b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) > > > c) happy feeling (somanassa) > > > d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) > > > e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Okay, but this is still partly ambiguous. Items c) and d) are > > clear to > > me, being mental feelings, being unambiguously on the "nama side". Items > > a), > > b), and e), however, could still be understood in more than one way. On > > the > > one hand, they could refer to various physical sensations *felt* as > > pleasant, > > unpleasant, or neutrally. > ..... > For a) and b) if there is the idea that they are ‘physical sensations > *felt*’, it is wrong, to my understanding. They are namas, arising with > body consciousness and do the feeling. They have no other function than to > feel or experience the ‘taste’ of the rupas. > > With regard to e) indifferent feeling, this doesn’t arise when rupas are > being experienced through the body-sense. > ..... > >On this reading, there would be *multitudes* > > of > > differing vedana - a huge aggregate. On the other hand, they could refer > > > > merely to instances of pleasantness, unpleasantness, and indifference > > *conditioned* by sensory contact, with the instances all differing due > > to the > > differences in the sensory contacts that conditioned their arising. > > (This > > reading would also allow for a huge aggregate, but the differences in > > instances is more indirect in this case, being based not on the feelings > > > > themselves, but on the conditioning contact.) I suspect that it is this > > *latter* reading that was intended by the Buddha, but I don't find this > > issue > > crystal clear. > ..... > Certainly as there is such a variety of cittas, there is a great variety > of vedana too and its importance is reflected by having its ‘own’ khandha. > You’ve lost me with some of your other comments here. The vedana > experiences the ‘taste’, and accompanies the cittas cognizing their > objects as discussed. Phassa (contact) also accompanies each of these > cittas too, contacting the object, of course. Let me know if I’ve > misunderstood you. This has been helpful for me to reflect on. > > Sarah > ===== > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14194 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/6/02 5:57:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > You don't say exactly which part of the sutta supports the phenomenalist > approach, but my guess is that it would be the part that reads: > > "a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight;… . > He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing; … . He > does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation; … . He > does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition; … . > Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena > seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'." > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed, that is the part. That part, as I see it, points out the "emptiness of the experienced", and the rest, not quoted here, points out he "emptiness of the experiencer". --------------------------------------------------- > > According to the PTS translation of the same sutta (on which, by the way, > the translation you have quoted is clearly based), 'conceived of' here is > a translation of our old friend 'mannana'/'mannati' that we have discussed > previously in the context of the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Discourse on the Root > of Existence). > > As we know from that sutta, 'conceiving of' is something found in the > untrained worldling but not in the enlightened ones. It means not seeing > dhammas correctly. > > To me, this sutta is saying, the Buddha *knows about* what is, he doesn't > *conceive about* anything. This I think is made clear by the final verse > passage: > > "Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed > As truth by other folk. Midst those who are entrenched > In their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. > Well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], > This barb I beheld whereon humans are hooked, impaled. > "I know, I see, 'tis verily so" -- no such clinging for the Tathagatas." ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: And I believe that you and I, Jon, are hooked on opposite ends of that very same barb, but both hooked. ;-)) We read the same words, and see them differently Accumulations! ------------------------------------------------------ > > Jon > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14195 From: Ruth Klein Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 9:22pm Subject: RE: Rupa vs Vedana This seems to be a very interesting discussion - but I'm jumping in the middle. Can someone point me to the originating post(s) so I can follow somewhat? Namaste, Ruth 14196 From: Howard Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 6:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: Rupa vs Vedana Hi, Ruth - Welcome to the list! I've assembled a partial trace of the vedana thread, and I'm sending it directly to you. I hope it will be useful. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/6/02 9:23:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ruth writes: > > This seems to be a very interesting discussion - but I'm jumping in the > middle. Can someone point me to the originating > post(s) so I can follow somewhat? > > Namaste, > > Ruth > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14197 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result) Thanks Howard, it does clarify considerably. I also re-thought my bewilderment and discovered I had completely forgotten that bodily sensation vipaka is with pleasant or unpleasant feeling. So a comet falling out of the sky and hitting me on the head is not only the sensation of hardness; it is hardness and painfulness. And 'hard and painful' does sound like a kamma result. This brought up another question. Is all pleasant bodily feeling resultant, with no kamma consequences? If so, then all bodily feeling must be resultant and all mental feeling must be javana, and potentially kamma causing. Incidentally, I believe the pleasantness of shape and taste would be mental feeling. what do you think, Larry ps: It just occurred to me that your other point about memory being vipaka could be explained as memory being conditioned by 'accumulations.' 'Accumulations' is a very shadowy subject. I'm wondering if it is both cause and result of javana, and if both javana and vipaka contribute to accumulations. 14198 From: <> Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Hi Dan and Sarah, you have both made strong arguments for not practicing meditation, the gist of which is that the likelyhood of getting it perfectly right is nill, but I am sure we could find an equal number of imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma. In fact, given that there are zero living arahats, I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold path at all. It seems like the safest thing to do is turn on the tv and vegetate. Larry 14199 From: Howard Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Uh, oh!! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/6/02 4:24:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Hi Dan and Sarah, you have both made strong arguments for not practicing > meditation, the gist of which is that the likelyhood of getting it > perfectly right is nill, but I am sure we could find an equal number of > imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma. In fact, given that there > are zero living arahats, I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold path > at all. It seems like the safest thing to do is turn on the tv and > vegetate. > > Larry > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)