14200 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 7:02am
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  Hey Larry -  Frustration and discouragement are natural - welcome to 
Samsara, The Land of Dukkha...... "not getting what is wanted is 
dukkha".   Thank goodness you weren't struck by discouragement until 
I started to improve. :) 
This mob of Buddhists  won't all agree totally... That's just the way 
it is.  And they'll only give spoonfulls of teaching, and then expect 
and require that we explore, find, search, sift, reflect, verify and 
eventually 'know' for ourselves.
Who cares if they don't agree on meditation?  Try to find what works 
for you, take as long as it takes. Check everything against the 
Tipitaka.  Keep what measures up and works, keep an open mind, be 
kind and patient with yourself - and remember how much benefit you 
have brought to others by your exploring and struggling with 
ADL....    Thanks.

much metta,
Chris

---  Larry wrote:
> Hi Dan and Sarah, you have both made strong arguments for not 
practicing
> meditation, the gist of which is that the likelyhood of getting it
> perfectly right is nill, but I am sure we could find an equal 
number of
> imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma. In fact, given that 
there
> are zero living arahats, I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold 
path
> at all. It seems like the safest thing to do is turn on the tv and
> vegetate. 
> 
> Larry

 
14201 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:25am
Subject: There are problems, and then - there are PROBLEMS...

 
  Dear Group,

For those moments when your life seems colourless and flat, when the 
world closes in on you, when there seems no point and everything is 
difficult, when your practice is arid, when understanding won't come 
at your command, and when the international scene seems gloomy - just 
remember there are those with worse problems than you....

It's Winter, this is a sub-tropical area, and recently the night-time 
temperature has dropped to below freezing, so everyone human and non-
human is coping the best way they can.  Some have tried the 
geographical escape.
I came home unexpectedly and surprised some Intruders.  I found a 
pregnant lady rat....and a field mouse.....IN my house.  The 
Agreement has always been that THEY have the shed, the roof cavity, 
the old chicken coop and the fields - the humans and companion 
animals have the rooms of the house.  THEY have reneged on this 
Agreement.  We need Industrial Relations Mediation down here! This is 
different to, and more serious than, the 'noisy possums in the 
ceiling' problem, from Spring time.  When I made my unscheduled 
return home, the field mouse was in the kitchen waste bin. A dear 
little thing, he took four jumps to get out and I nearly had to give 
him a hoist up.  The lady rat is heavily pregnant and because her 
centre of gravity has radically shifted, is finding it hard to run 
fast on the floor tiles and squeezing under furniture is a real 
problem requiring much effort.
A friend once advised me to read Kinship with All Life and I've 
belatedly ordered it from Amazon, but doubt it'll arive before the 
lady rat's 'happy event'.  
So - what to do? Apart from the  stricter care with cleaning and 
removal of food sources. I have been pondering on the Precept against 
killing....Precepts are not to be kept only when convenient...... 
They are such warm and beautiful brown-eyed creatures....So full of 
panic and fear, and so wanting to live and not be harmed......... 
I've thought of putting food outside for them all, but feel this will 
just attract all the free-loaders in the neighbourhood to my place.
I have a non-harming cage trap for the mouse, and hope to find a much 
large version for the lady rat before she delivers. Though I  will 
still be causing suffering by transporting them into exile .....

Give me the 'Jhana or not to Jhana' problem anyday!

metta,
Chris

 
14202 From: onco111   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:58am
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you 
are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different 

words.

Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday:
"That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we 
know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep 

understanding of characteristics that appear now".

--> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed at 
the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry 

around. That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. Sometimes 
mana arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a 

lot!" 

That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that 
these various experiences that may arise in the course of 

formal sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender insight 
knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a 

meditation teacher may well not be arising from insight, but just as 
a consequence of developing concentration. Taking them 

as 'insight,' whether 'tender' or no, is a recipe for some very 
fattening lobha and moha -- sweet and tasty, perhaps, but 

quite unhealthy. This is especially true when there is very little 
insight associated with them. These little yardsticks for 

progress have done more to mislead millions of meditators than many 
mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be getting 

late...]

The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces calm, 
and that the calm it induces is different from the calm 

that is manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' in 
this context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that 

arises when the mind is repeatedly directed to a chosen object and 
dosa is cooled. Lobha? There may well be much lobha. The 

'choosing' and 'directing' are both evidence of lobha as well as 
conditions for generating more lobha. Not helpful. At the 

same time, though, the pleasantness grows and grows. And, encouraged 
by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as we find in 

Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as results of 
insight rather than lobha. 

Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am 
calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp 

concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', and 
equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with 

lobha may seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the 
real 'path,' but lobha is always accompanied by a 

restlessness (uddhacca, as an akusala universal), so calmness with 
lobha is not real calmness, even though it may seem so 

much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle and bustle of daily 
life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then -- the 

choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the mind 
there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured 

calm? Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating akusala 
by temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. 

It's not necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of it 
makes it very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy 

to think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I can 
do it," and then spend years and years (even decades) 

manufacturing lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I could 
do more of that, then I'd really be wise!" 

You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we know..."

<snip>
__________________________________________________________________
Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed 
[XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may 

experience a number of phenomena such as ....

Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to 
read them in the full context of the development of 

insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as 
beginning stages or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to 

differentiate them from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). 
However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly 

discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the second 
stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent 

without any ignorance or doubt. At the third stage, panna knows the 
rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling 

away. In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of 
wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly 

the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other 
realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, 

noticing or focussing on these phenomena.  A.Sujin gives a good 
summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha 

Dhammas" too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... 

--> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually all 
meditators experience and so commonly think of as 

'tender insight' may have nothing to do with insight at all. This 
distinction is easy to state and understand at a 

theoretical level, but understanding the difference is impossible 
without discernment of what 'insight' is and does. Here I 

don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of insight, but 
just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where it 

comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come 
from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, 

with annual or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily 
practice on the cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands 

of hours of manufactured calm, peaceful-seeming times when even 
subtle sensations are noted with ease, there may be scores of 

moments where there is a flash of what seems to be insight when there 
is an apparent discontinuity in the flow of 

consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these moments come 
in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of 

moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, say, 
the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the 

way uppadana paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a 
decade doesn't qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', 

because there still needs to be some consolidation of the insight, 
some development. But even the softer, attenuated, trivial 

insights that are primarily conceptual (complete with an 'Aha' flash) 
induce calm (kusala) -- just not at the level where the 

'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') arise, and not at the 
level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would call 

'beginning'. 

Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly 
developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the 

very common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem 
ourselves and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when 

we may not even be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. However, it 
may be that labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very 

highly developed' encourages conceit of a different kind -- the kind 
that esteems ourselves as 'low', the conceit that may 

lead us to aspire to be, say, like a dustrag. [The problem is not so 
much in the dustrag or what the metaphor represents, but 

in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully aware bhikkhu who sits 
under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because we want to 

be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves aware of the 
breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is 

different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a dustrag.] 
We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, 

including the conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call 
beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To 

counter the conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare 
kusala moments are; about the mountains of ignorance we 

bear with us; about the distinctions between calm with lobha, calm 
without lobha, and insight; about how most of what we take 

as 'insight' is really insight into concept and not into paramattha 
dhammas or conditionality; about how even beginner's 

level insight is 'development' but advanced concentration may not be, 
etc. 

Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent 
origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], 

and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then 
formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these 

states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, 
they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, 

but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), 
like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on 

water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a 
conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like 

the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth 
(Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this 

point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as 
a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104]....

Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, 
kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so 

on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct 
understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether 

it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing with 
Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually 

appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn't the clear 
understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa 

in practice without any doubt, then it's impossible to really 
understand these more refined levels of wisdom. ....

--> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual 
understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct 

understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct 
understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding 

of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while 
confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is 

really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only with 
the supramundane path consciousness. 

Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all 
these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation 

of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this 
tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in 

him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes 
a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights 

discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise 
in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be 

reckoned as imperfections of insight." <snip> In other words, does 
the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the 

occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on that... "Athassa 
imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa 

vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)

Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. Meanwhile, 
surely the discussion is about the conditions for these 

kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not arise 
at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why 

it is `tender' insight and not a power. Remember, only the sotapanna 
is on the path of `no return', so to speak. The person 

`with this tender insght' refers to the level of vipassana. Person or 
sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, 

if I misunderstand any of your comments here

--> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why I 
don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to 

the person in the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an 
understatement for you!), but it looks to me like the 

'with this tender insight' is in the instrumental case, with the 
sense of insight 'bringing about' the phenomena known as 

'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) rather than 
insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in insight. 

~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be taken either 
way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed 

by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day 
insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight 

about anatta arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) 
arises -- "Aha! Now I am a true beginner, so now when those 

meditation phenomena arise in me, I'll know they are tender insight!" 
And then, "Aren't I wise! Insight arises every morning 

and evening when I sit. All I need to do to make insight arise is 
focus on the breath for a few minutes. Then, illumination, 

etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on my way to 
enlightenment." 

Sarah: A few comments in brief:
1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 
2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by 
upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for 

akusala.
3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even 
though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), 

there cannot be calm.
4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or 
insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise 

knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop.
5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to 
cling and `distract'.
6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest 
of your snipped post.


--> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little 
terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I 

presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana 
cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. By 

"manufactured calm" I don't necessarily mean these kusala cetasikas. 
I'm primarily referring to the calm feelings that arise 

in the course of formal meditation, which can be either kusala or 
akusala, depending on the attachment.


Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly 
misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't 

condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, but 
wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first.

--> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have 
misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition 

too much dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far 
between. Much more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again.

Dan

 
14203 From: onco111   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:00am
Subject: Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you 
are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different words.

Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday:
"That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we 
know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep understanding 
of characteristics that appear now".

--> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed at 
the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry around. 
That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. Sometimes mana 
arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a lot!" 

That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that 
these various experiences that may arise in the course of formal 
sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender insight 
knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a meditation teacher 
may well not be arising from insight, but just as a consequence of 
developing concentration. Taking them as 'insight,' whether 'tender' 
or no, is a recipe for some very fattening lobha and moha -- sweet 
and tasty, perhaps, but quite unhealthy. This is especially true when 
there is very little insight associated with them. These little 
yardsticks for progress have done more to mislead millions of 
meditators than many mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be 
getting late...]

The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces calm, 
and that the calm it induces is different from the calm that is 
manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' in this 
context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that arises when the mind 
is repeatedly directed to a chosen object and dosa is cooled. Lobha? 
There may well be much lobha. The 'choosing' and 'directing' are both 
evidence of lobha as well as conditions for generating more lobha. 
Not helpful. At the same time, though, the pleasantness grows and 
grows. And, encouraged by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as 
we find in Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as 
results of insight rather than lobha. 

Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am 
calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp 
concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', and 
equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with lobha may 
seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the real 'path,' 
but lobha is always accompanied by a restlessness (uddhacca, as an 
akusala universal), so calmness with lobha is not real calmness, even 
though it may seem so much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle 
and bustle of daily life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then --
 the choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the 
mind there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured calm? 
Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating akusala by 
temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. It's not 
necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of it makes it 
very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy to 
think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I can do 
it," and then spend years and years (even decades) manufacturing 
lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I could do more of 
that, then I'd really be wise!" 

You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we know..."

<snip>
__________________________________________________________________
Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed 
[XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number 
of phenomena such as ....

Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to 
read them in the full context of the development of insight. The 
first three stages of insight are referred to as beginning stages 
or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to differentiate them 
from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). However, even at this 
stage, nama and rupa are clearly discerned. Realities are known as 
anatta. Furthermore, at the second stage, the conditioned nature of 
realities is apparent without any ignorance or doubt. At the third 
stage, panna knows the rapid succession of namas and rupas arising 
and falling away. In other words, there is a very highly developed 
degree of wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but 
directly the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or 
other realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, 
noticing or focussing on these phenomena.  A.Sujin gives a good 
summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" 
too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... 

--> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually all 
meditators experience and so commonly think of as 'tender insight' 
may have nothing to do with insight at all. This distinction is easy 
to state and understand at a theoretical level, but understanding the 
difference is impossible without discernment of what 'insight' is and 
does. Here I don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of 
insight, but just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where 
it comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come 
from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, with annual 
or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily practice on the 
cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands of hours of manufactured 
calm, peaceful-seeming times when even subtle sensations are noted 
with ease, there may be scores of moments where there is a flash of 
what seems to be insight when there is an apparent discontinuity in 
the flow of consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these 
moments come in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of 
moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, say, 
the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the way uppadana 
paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a decade doesn't 
qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', because there still needs to 
be some consolidation of the insight, some development. But even the 
softer, attenuated, trivial insights that are primarily conceptual 
(complete with an 'Aha' flash) induce calm (kusala) -- just not at 
the level where the 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') 
arise, and not at the level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would 
call 'beginning'. 

Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly 
developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the very 
common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem ourselves 
and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when we may not even 
be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. However, it may be that 
labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very highly developed' encourages 
conceit of a different kind -- the kind that esteems ourselves 
as 'low', the conceit that may lead us to aspire to be, say, like a 
dustrag. [The problem is not so much in the dustrag or what the 
metaphor represents, but in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully 
aware bhikkhu who sits under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because 
we want to be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves 
aware of the breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is 
different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a dustrag.] 
We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, including the 
conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call 
beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To counter the 
conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare kusala moments 
are; about the mountains of ignorance we bear with us; about the 
distinctions between calm with lobha, calm without lobha, and 
insight; about how most of what we take as 'insight' is really 
insight into concept and not into paramattha dhammas or 
conditionality; about how even beginner's level insight 
is 'development' but advanced concentration may not be, etc. 

Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent 
origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and 
characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then 
formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it 
seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they 
cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also 
short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on 
water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a 
mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a conjuring trick 
(S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling 
firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain 
trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this point he has attained tender insight-
knowledge...[and] is known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism 
XX.104]....

Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, 
kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so on, but we 
have to really consider whether this is direct understanding of the 
these characteristics of realities or whether it is conceptual 
understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing with Larry, it can be 
hard enough to even conceptually appreciate what vipaka or d.o, 
really means. If there isn't the clear understanding of the 
distinction between nama and rupa in practice without any doubt, then 
it's impossible to really understand these more refined levels of 
wisdom. ....

--> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual 
understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct understanding, especially 
since we have so little (if any) direct understanding. Of course, 
there may be clear understanding of the distinction between nama and 
rupa at one moment, while confusion and doubt about it arise again 
later -- moha is really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally 
eradicated only with the supramundane path consciousness. 

Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all 
these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation of 
the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this tender 
insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him." The 
translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes a 
beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights discussed on the 
previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise in the course of 
meditation. These phenomena are to be reckoned as imperfections of 
insight." <snip> In other words, does the "with this tender insight" 
refer to the person or the occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert 
to bite on that... "Athassa imaaya taru.navipassanaaya 
aaraddhavipassakassa dasa vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of 
Vism. II on CSCD)

Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. Meanwhile, 
surely the discussion is about the conditions for these kilesa to 
arise at this level of tender insight which would not arise at higher 
levels. In other words, it is stressing why it is `tender' insight 
and not a power. Remember, only the sotapanna is on the path of `no 
return', so to speak. The person `with this tender insght' refers to 
the level of vipassana. Person or sotapanna are concepts as I know 
you know well. Sorry, if I misunderstand any of your comments here

--> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why I 
don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to the person in 
the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an understatement 
for you!), but it looks to me like the 'with this tender insight' is 
in the instrumental case, with the sense of insight 'bringing about' 
the phenomena known as 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) 
rather than insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in 
insight. ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be 
taken either way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed 
by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day 
insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight about anatta 
arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) arises -- "Aha! 
Now I am a true beginner, so now when those meditation phenomena 
arise in me, I'll know they are tender insight!" And then, "Aren't I 
wise! Insight arises every morning and evening when I sit. All I need 
to do to make insight arise is focus on the breath for a few minutes. 
Then, illumination, etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on 
my way to enlightenment." 

Sarah: A few comments in brief:
1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 
2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by 
upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for akusala.
3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even 
though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), there 
cannot be calm.
4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or 
insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise knowledge of 
kilesa, neither can develop.
5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to 
cling and `distract'.
6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest 
of your snipped post.


--> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little 
terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I presume you are 
referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana cetasikas that 
sound like various aspects of calm. By "manufactured calm" I don't 
necessarily mean these kusala cetasikas. I'm primarily referring to 
the calm feelings that arise in the course of formal meditation, 
which can be either kusala or akusala, depending on the attachment.


Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly 
misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't 
condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, but 
wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first.

--> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have 
misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition too much 
dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far between. Much 
more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again.

Dan

 
 
14204 From: onco111   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  Dear Sarah,
Nice comments from K.S... 

Development of samatha must be accompanied by panya, or it is more 
likely to be development of attachment. That's right. Now, the 
question is when is there panya? What are the characteristics? How 
can we discern the difference between panya and attachment? It is so 
difficult to do...

Dan

> "When there is some understanding that the wholesome and calm 
moments are
> so brief and infrequent, samatha bhavana can be developed by 
knowing which
> object can be a condition for calm. This is by understanding, not by
> wishing or focussing. By understanding the value of skilful cittas, 
it
> will be a condition for skilful reflections, such as thinking about 
others
> with metta. If there is concentrating on an object and wanting to 
develop
> more concentration, there is no detachment at these times from 
clinging
> and conceit. Samatha can only be developed when there is 
understanding
> more and more of how much attachment there is to sesnsuous objects. 
In
> other words, it's not just the object that is important, but for it 
to be
> a moment of samatha bhavana, there must be right understanding (at 
the
> level of samatha) at that moment. There can be reflection on death 
with or
> without understanding of how it calms the mind. When the citta is 
kusala,
> there will be more and more calm which may lead to stages of 
wholesome
> concentration with calm and understanding. Again it has to be right 
from
> the very beginning. A moment of awareness is different from a 
moment with
> no awareness. Understanding knows the difference without any 
selection. 
> 
> By developing satipatthana and samatha, this is the way that we 
learn what
> our `nature' is, what kind of carita (person) one is. It depends on
> individual accumulations whether metta or marana sati (recollection 
on
> death)  or even reflection on earth or solidity will condition calm 
and
> kusala cittas. For example, with regards to earth, we fight just to 
get
> `solidity'. reflecting wisely on the importance we attach 
to `earth' can
> be a condition for calm. Are we friendly and ready to help? Do we 
see the
> value of metta now?. There cannot be metta when there is craving.  
The
> deeds and speech may be the same, but <when there is metta it is> 
without
> the attachment. Like a mother to  child, without attachment. The 
purpose
> is to be detached. If we select breath, it suggests a wanting of 
that
> object. What is the purpose of concentrating on breath? It's useless
> without panna, otherwise it merely conditions attachment." <end 
quote>
> *****
> Sarah
> =====
>  
> 
> 

 
14205 From: onco111   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  Oh, Larry! You silly goose! I'm not making any argument for not 
practicing meditation. Yes, the likelihood of getting it right in a 
short time is close to nill. Same with studying Abhidhamma. This is 
no reason to abstain. On the contrary, we need to work and work, very 
hard, for years and years to win any noticeable development. False 
estimation of progress is a tremendously dangerous trap that stifles 
true development. To face the huge mountains of ignorance that we 
carry around on our backs takes tremendous courage and resolve. And 
we have to do it alone -- totally alone, with no Self to help! If we 
lean too hard on that Self, it will relish the burden and keep 
supporting us, on and on and on. 

I'm only saying that when you sit on the cushion, keep studying 
realities as they arise and pass away. One that is especially 
difficult to discern is lobha because lobha can be quite pleasant. Is 
pleasantness the goal of sitting? If so, then you wouldn't be much 
worse off watching TV (although TV isn't even very pleasant). 

Now for some specific responses:

Larry: In fact, given that there are zero living arahats
--> Dan: There are? Are you sure? How do you know? 

Larry: I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold path at all. 

--> Dan: You do? What is the 8-fold path (in your own words)?

Dan

P.S. I've really been enjoying your recent posts. Your hard work is 
an inspiration. Thank-you.

 
14206 From: yuzhonghao  <Victor> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 0:21pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Hi Dan and Sarah,

Questions for you:

How would you develop right concentration? 
What is your suggestion on developing right concentration?

Thank you.

Regards,
Victor


---  "onco111"  wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
> Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you 
> are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different 
> 
> words.
> 
> Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday:
> "That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we 
> know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep 
> 
> understanding of characteristics that appear now".
> 
> --> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed 
at 
> the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry 
> 
> around. That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. Sometimes 
> mana arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a 
> 
> lot!" 
> 
> That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that 
> these various experiences that may arise in the course of 
> 
> formal sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender 
insight 
> knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a 
> 
> meditation teacher may well not be arising from insight, but just 
as 
> a consequence of developing concentration. Taking them 
> 
> as 'insight,' whether 'tender' or no, is a recipe for some very 
> fattening lobha and moha -- sweet and tasty, perhaps, but 
> 
> quite unhealthy. This is especially true when there is very little 
> insight associated with them. These little yardsticks for 
> 
> progress have done more to mislead millions of meditators than many 
> mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be getting 
> 
> late...]
> 
> The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces calm, 
> and that the calm it induces is different from the calm 
> 
> that is manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' in 
> this context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that 
> 
> arises when the mind is repeatedly directed to a chosen object and 
> dosa is cooled. Lobha? There may well be much lobha. The 
> 
> 'choosing' and 'directing' are both evidence of lobha as well as 
> conditions for generating more lobha. Not helpful. At the 
> 
> same time, though, the pleasantness grows and grows. And, 
encouraged 
> by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as we find in 
> 
> Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as results of 
> insight rather than lobha. 
> 
> Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am 
> calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp 
> 
> concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', 
and 
> equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with 
> 
> lobha may seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the 
> real 'path,' but lobha is always accompanied by a 
> 
> restlessness (uddhacca, as an akusala universal), so calmness with 
> lobha is not real calmness, even though it may seem so 
> 
> much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle and bustle of daily 
> life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then -- the 
> 
> choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the mind 
> there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured 
> 
> calm? Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating 
akusala 
> by temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. 
> 
> It's not necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of 
it 
> makes it very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy 
> 
> to think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I 
can 
> do it," and then spend years and years (even decades) 
> 
> manufacturing lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I could 
> do more of that, then I'd really be wise!" 
> 
> You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we 
know..."
> 
> <snip>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are 
discussed 
> [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may 
> 
> experience a number of phenomena such as ....
> 
> Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to 
> read them in the full context of the development of 
> 
> insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as 
> beginning stages or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to 
> 
> differentiate them from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). 
> However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly 
> 
> discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the 
second 
> stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent 
> 
> without any ignorance or doubt. At the third stage, panna knows the 
> rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling 
> 
> away. In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of 
> wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly 
> 
> the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other 
> realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, 
> 
> noticing or focussing on these phenomena.  A.Sujin gives a good 
> summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha 
> 
> Dhammas" too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... 
> 
> --> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually 
all 
> meditators experience and so commonly think of as 
> 
> 'tender insight' may have nothing to do with insight at all. This 
> distinction is easy to state and understand at a 
> 
> theoretical level, but understanding the difference is impossible 
> without discernment of what 'insight' is and does. Here I 
> 
> don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of insight, but 
> just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where it 
> 
> comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come 
> from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, 
> 
> with annual or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily 
> practice on the cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands 
> 
> of hours of manufactured calm, peaceful-seeming times when even 
> subtle sensations are noted with ease, there may be scores of 
> 
> moments where there is a flash of what seems to be insight when 
there 
> is an apparent discontinuity in the flow of 
> 
> consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these moments come 
> in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of 
> 
> moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, 
say, 
> the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the 
> 
> way uppadana paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a 
> decade doesn't qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', 
> 
> because there still needs to be some consolidation of the insight, 
> some development. But even the softer, attenuated, trivial 
> 
> insights that are primarily conceptual (complete with an 'Aha' 
flash) 
> induce calm (kusala) -- just not at the level where the 
> 
> 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') arise, and not at the 
> level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would call 
> 
> 'beginning'. 
> 
> Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly 
> developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the 
> 
> very common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem 
> ourselves and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when 
> 
> we may not even be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. However, 
it 
> may be that labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very 
> 
> highly developed' encourages conceit of a different kind -- the 
kind 
> that esteems ourselves as 'low', the conceit that may 
> 
> lead us to aspire to be, say, like a dustrag. [The problem is not 
so 
> much in the dustrag or what the metaphor represents, but 
> 
> in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully aware bhikkhu who sits 
> under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because we want to 
> 
> be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves aware of 
the 
> breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is 
> 
> different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a dustrag.] 
> We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, 
> 
> including the conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call 
> beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To 
> 
> counter the conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare 
> kusala moments are; about the mountains of ignorance we 
> 
> bear with us; about the distinctions between calm with lobha, calm 
> without lobha, and insight; about how most of what we take 
> 
> as 'insight' is really insight into concept and not into paramattha 
> dhammas or conditionality; about how even beginner's 
> 
> level insight is 'development' but advanced concentration may not 
be, 
> etc. 
> 
> Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the 
dependent 
> origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], 
> 
> and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then 
> formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these 
> 
> states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being 
arisen, 
> they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, 
> 
> but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 
137), 
> like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on 
> 
> water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a 
> conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like 
> 
> the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth 
> (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this 
> 
> point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as 
> a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104]....
> 
> Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, 
> kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so 
> 
> on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct 
> understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether 
> 
> it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing 
with 
> Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually 
> 
> appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn't the 
clear 
> understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa 
> 
> in practice without any doubt, then it's impossible to really 
> understand these more refined levels of wisdom. ....
> 
> --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse 
intellectual 
> understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct 
> 
> understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct 
> understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding 
> 
> of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while 
> confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is 
> 
> really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only with 
> the supramundane path consciousness. 
> 
> Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all 
> these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation 
> 
> of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this 
> tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in 
> 
> him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially 
becomes 
> a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights 
> 
> discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise 
> in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be 
> 
> reckoned as imperfections of insight." <snip> In other words, does 
> the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the 
> 
> occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on 
that... "Athassa 
> imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa 
> 
> vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)
> 
> Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. 
Meanwhile, 
> surely the discussion is about the conditions for these 
> 
> kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not 
arise 
> at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why 
> 
> it is `tender' insight and not a power. Remember, only the 
sotapanna 
> is on the path of `no return', so to speak. The person 
> 
> `with this tender insght' refers to the level of vipassana. Person 
or 
> sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, 
> 
> if I misunderstand any of your comments here
> 
> --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why 
I 
> don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to 
> 
> the person in the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an 
> understatement for you!), but it looks to me like the 
> 
> 'with this tender insight' is in the instrumental case, with the 
> sense of insight 'bringing about' the phenomena known as 
> 
> 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) rather than 
> insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in insight. 
> 
> ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be taken 
either 
> way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed 
> 
> by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day 
> insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight 
> 
> about anatta arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) 
> arises -- "Aha! Now I am a true beginner, so now when those 
> 
> meditation phenomena arise in me, I'll know they are tender 
insight!" 
> And then, "Aren't I wise! Insight arises every morning 
> 
> and evening when I sit. All I need to do to make insight arise is 
> focus on the breath for a few minutes. Then, illumination, 
> 
> etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on my way to 
> enlightenment." 
> 
> Sarah: A few comments in brief:
> 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 
> 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by 
> upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for 
> 
> akusala.
> 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even 
> though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), 
> 
> there cannot be calm.
> 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or 
> insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise 
> 
> knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop.
> 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to 
> cling and `distract'.
> 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the 
rest 
> of your snipped post.
> 
> 
> --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little 
> terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I 
> 
> presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of 
sobhana 
> cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. By 
> 
> "manufactured calm" I don't necessarily mean these kusala 
cetasikas. 
> I'm primarily referring to the calm feelings that arise 
> 
> in the course of formal meditation, which can be either kusala or 
> akusala, depending on the attachment.
> 
> 
> Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly 
> misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't 
> 
> condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, 
but 
> wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first.
> 
> --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have 
> misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition 
> 
> too much dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far 
> between. Much more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again.
> 
> Dan

 
14207 From: <> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 1:14pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  Thanks for clearing that up Dan. I thought you were being too hard on
meditators and not hard enough on abhidhamikas.

I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure
she has a good source.

Actually, by my estimate, there must be several thousand arahats at
least, surely. Maybe the reason we say there are no arahats is that it
would be conceited to compare arahats to people or people to arahats or
arahats to arahats.

Btw, I agree that tranquility follows insight; I almost said 'results'
from insight but I don't think tranquility is resultant. I think
tranquility in the sense of temporarily discontinuing the grasping
impulse is a little taste of nibbana. So if you are not sure if nibbana
is really what you want you could try out tranquility and see if it
fits.

best wishes, Larry

 
14208 From: onco111   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 5:20pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Dear Victor,
Most critical is to know the difference between "Right concentration" 
and wrong concentration. But right concentration does not develop all 
by itself, it must be accompanied by right view; otherwise, there is 
no understanding of the difference between concentration and right 
concentration and no development of right concentration. 

What is your suggestion for developing right concentration?

Dan


> Hi Dan and Sarah,
> 
> Questions for you:
> 
> How would you develop right concentration? 
> What is your suggestion on developing right concentration?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Regards,
> Victor
> 
> 
> ---  "onco111"  wrote:
> > Dear Sarah,
> > Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think 
you 
> > are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different 
> > 
> > words.
> > 
> > Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday:
> > "That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we 
> > know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep 
> > 
> > understanding of characteristics that appear now".
> > 
> > --> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed 
> at 
> > the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry 
> > 
> > around. That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. 
Sometimes 
> > mana arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a 
> > 
> > lot!" 
> > 
> > That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that 
> > these various experiences that may arise in the course of 
> > 
> > formal sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender 
> insight 
> > knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a 
> > 
> > meditation teacher may well not be arising from insight, but just 
> as 
> > a consequence of developing concentration. Taking them 
> > 
> > as 'insight,' whether 'tender' or no, is a recipe for some very 
> > fattening lobha and moha -- sweet and tasty, perhaps, but 
> > 
> > quite unhealthy. This is especially true when there is very 
little 
> > insight associated with them. These little yardsticks for 
> > 
> > progress have done more to mislead millions of meditators than 
many 
> > mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be getting 
> > 
> > late...]
> > 
> > The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces 
calm, 
> > and that the calm it induces is different from the calm 
> > 
> > that is manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' 
in 
> > this context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that 
> > 
> > arises when the mind is repeatedly directed to a chosen object 
and 
> > dosa is cooled. Lobha? There may well be much lobha. The 
> > 
> > 'choosing' and 'directing' are both evidence of lobha as well as 
> > conditions for generating more lobha. Not helpful. At the 
> > 
> > same time, though, the pleasantness grows and grows. And, 
> encouraged 
> > by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as we find in 
> > 
> > Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as results of 
> > insight rather than lobha. 
> > 
> > Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am 
> > calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp 
> > 
> > concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', 
> and 
> > equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with 
> > 
> > lobha may seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the 
> > real 'path,' but lobha is always accompanied by a 
> > 
> > restlessness (uddhacca, as an akusala universal), so calmness 
with 
> > lobha is not real calmness, even though it may seem so 
> > 
> > much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle and bustle of daily 
> > life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then -- the 
> > 
> > choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the 
mind 
> > there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured 
> > 
> > calm? Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating 
> akusala 
> > by temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. 
> > 
> > It's not necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of 
> it 
> > makes it very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy 
> > 
> > to think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I 
> can 
> > do it," and then spend years and years (even decades) 
> > 
> > manufacturing lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I 
could 
> > do more of that, then I'd really be wise!" 
> > 
> > You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we 
> know..."
> > 
> > <snip>
> > __________________________________________________________________
> > Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are 
> discussed 
> > [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may 
> > 
> > experience a number of phenomena such as ....
> > 
> > Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to 
> > read them in the full context of the development of 
> > 
> > insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as 
> > beginning stages or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to 
> > 
> > differentiate them from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). 
> > However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly 
> > 
> > discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the 
> second 
> > stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent 
> > 
> > without any ignorance or doubt. At the third stage, panna knows 
the 
> > rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling 
> > 
> > away. In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of 
> > wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly 
> > 
> > the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other 
> > realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, 
> > 
> > noticing or focussing on these phenomena.  A.Sujin gives a good 
> > summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha 
> > 
> > Dhammas" too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... 
> > 
> > --> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually 
> all 
> > meditators experience and so commonly think of as 
> > 
> > 'tender insight' may have nothing to do with insight at all. This 
> > distinction is easy to state and understand at a 
> > 
> > theoretical level, but understanding the difference is impossible 
> > without discernment of what 'insight' is and does. Here I 
> > 
> > don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of insight, 
but 
> > just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where it 
> > 
> > comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come 
> > from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, 
> > 
> > with annual or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily 
> > practice on the cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands 
> > 
> > of hours of manufactured calm, peaceful-seeming times when even 
> > subtle sensations are noted with ease, there may be scores of 
> > 
> > moments where there is a flash of what seems to be insight when 
> there 
> > is an apparent discontinuity in the flow of 
> > 
> > consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these moments 
come 
> > in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of 
> > 
> > moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, 
> say, 
> > the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the 
> > 
> > way uppadana paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a 
> > decade doesn't qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', 
> > 
> > because there still needs to be some consolidation of the 
insight, 
> > some development. But even the softer, attenuated, trivial 
> > 
> > insights that are primarily conceptual (complete with an 'Aha' 
> flash) 
> > induce calm (kusala) -- just not at the level where the 
> > 
> > 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') arise, and not at the 
> > level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would call 
> > 
> > 'beginning'. 
> > 
> > Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly 
> > developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the 
> > 
> > very common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem 
> > ourselves and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when 
> > 
> > we may not even be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. 
However, 
> it 
> > may be that labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very 
> > 
> > highly developed' encourages conceit of a different kind -- the 
> kind 
> > that esteems ourselves as 'low', the conceit that may 
> > 
> > lead us to aspire to be, say, like a dustrag. [The problem is not 
> so 
> > much in the dustrag or what the metaphor represents, but 
> > 
> > in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully aware bhikkhu who 
sits 
> > under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because we want to 
> > 
> > be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves aware of 
> the 
> > breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is 
> > 
> > different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a 
dustrag.] 
> > We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, 
> > 
> > including the conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call 
> > beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To 
> > 
> > counter the conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare 
> > kusala moments are; about the mountains of ignorance we 
> > 
> > bear with us; about the distinctions between calm with lobha, 
calm 
> > without lobha, and insight; about how most of what we take 
> > 
> > as 'insight' is really insight into concept and not into 
paramattha 
> > dhammas or conditionality; about how even beginner's 
> > 
> > level insight is 'development' but advanced concentration may not 
> be, 
> > etc. 
> > 
> > Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the 
> dependent 
> > origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], 
> > 
> > and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, 
then 
> > formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these 
> > 
> > states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being 
> arisen, 
> > they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, 
> > 
> > but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 
> 137), 
> > like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on 
> > 
> > water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like 
a 
> > conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like 
> > 
> > the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like 
froth 
> > (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this 
> > 
> > point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known 
as 
> > a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104]....
> > 
> > Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of 
dep.origination, 
> > kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so 
> > 
> > on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct 
> > understanding of the these characteristics of realities or 
whether 
> > 
> > it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing 
> with 
> > Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually 
> > 
> > appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn't the 
> clear 
> > understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa 
> > 
> > in practice without any doubt, then it's impossible to really 
> > understand these more refined levels of wisdom. ....
> > 
> > --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse 
> intellectual 
> > understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct 
> > 
> > understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct 
> > understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding 
> > 
> > of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while 
> > confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is 
> > 
> > really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only 
with 
> > the supramundane path consciousness. 
> > 
> > Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all 
> > these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation 
> > 
> > of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this 
> > tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in 
> > 
> > him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially 
> becomes 
> > a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights 
> > 
> > discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might 
arise 
> > in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be 
> > 
> > reckoned as imperfections of insight." <snip> In other words, 
does 
> > the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the 
> > 
> > occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on 
> that... "Athassa 
> > imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa 
> > 
> > vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)
> > 
> > Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. 
> Meanwhile, 
> > surely the discussion is about the conditions for these 
> > 
> > kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not 
> arise 
> > at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why 
> > 
> > it is `tender' insight and not a power. Remember, only the 
> sotapanna 
> > is on the path of `no return', so to speak. The person 
> > 
> > `with this tender insght' refers to the level of vipassana. 
Person 
> or 
> > sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, 
> > 
> > if I misunderstand any of your comments here
> > 
> > --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's 
why 
> I 
> > don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to 
> > 
> > the person in the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's 
an 
> > understatement for you!), but it looks to me like the 
> > 
> > 'with this tender insight' is in the instrumental case, with the 
> > sense of insight 'bringing about' the phenomena known as 
> > 
> > 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) rather than 
> > insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in insight. 
> > 
> > ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be taken 
> either 
> > way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed 
> > 
> > by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one 
day 
> > insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight 
> > 
> > about anatta arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) 
> > arises -- "Aha! Now I am a true beginner, so now when those 
> > 
> > meditation phenomena arise in me, I'll know they are tender 
> insight!" 
> > And then, "Aren't I wise! Insight arises every morning 
> > 
> > and evening when I sit. All I need to do to make insight arise is 
> > focus on the breath for a few minutes. Then, illumination, 
> > 
> > etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on my way to 
> > enlightenment." 
> > 
> > Sarah: A few comments in brief:
> > 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 
> > 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but 
by 
> > upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for 
> > 
> > akusala.
> > 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even 
> > though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), 
> > 
> > there cannot be calm.
> > 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or 
> > insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise 
> > 
> > knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop.
> > 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to 
> > cling and `distract'.
> > 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the 
> rest 
> > of your snipped post.
> > 
> > 
> > --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a 
little 
> > terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I 
> > 
> > presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of 
> sobhana 
> > cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. By 
> > 
> > "manufactured calm" I don't necessarily mean these kusala 
> cetasikas. 
> > I'm primarily referring to the calm feelings that arise 
> > 
> > in the course of formal meditation, which can be either kusala or 
> > akusala, depending on the attachment.
> > 
> > 
> > Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly 
> > misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't 
> > 
> > condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, 
> but 
> > wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first.
> > 
> > --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have 
> > misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition 
> > 
> > too much dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far 
> > between. Much more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again.
> > 
> > Dan

 
14209 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:42pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  ---
Dear Larry,
I just got back from Tokyo and red a few posts. So far I haven't 
seen anywhere where Sarah or Dan are saying don't meditate. In fact 
I think both of them consistently in hundreds of posts have been 
saying meditate as much as possible - but do it with right view. 
We have a very short life - a hundred years or less - and if we 
limit the time to develop insight to our imagined 'ideal 
sitauation'i.e. when I am sitting, or when I am standing, or when I 
am alone, or when I am with others who are doing the same thing, or 
when I am concentrated, then we will subtlely assume that other 
moments are not the right time for insight, and then there may be 
neglect and falling away.
The bodhisatta was invigorated when he realised the difficulty of 
the task:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of
20insight.htm#treatise

"""If he were to hear: ".... If he were to hear: "He alone can 
attain Buddhahood who can cut through a whole world-system that has 
become a jungle of thorny creepers covered by a solid thicket of 
bamboo, cross out, and reach the other side," etc .... If he were to 
hear: "Buddhahood can only be attained after being tortured in hell 
for four incalculables and a 100,000 aeons" -- he would not deem 
that difficult to do, but would be filled with desire for the task 
and would not shrink away."""

The five aggregates are samsara vatta, the round of births and 
deaths. They arise and cease endlessly, continuosly fueled by 
ignorance and craving. The way out is not by fooling ourself about 
progress but only by the true eightfold path. I believe there has to 
be investigation and consideration of the teachings for right view 
and the other factors to arise.
 

 """Thus, with wisdom, mindfulness, and energy preceded by skilful 
means, a bodhisattva should first thoroughly immerse himself in this 
entire sphere of learning -[i.ethe five aggregates, the twelve sense 
bases, the eighteen elements, the four truths, the twenty-two 
faculties, the twelve factors of dependent origination, the 
foundations of mindfulness, etc., the various classifications of 
phenomena such as the wholesome, etc.,]- through study, listening, 
memorization, learning, and interrogation..........
    Then he should develop wisdom born of reflection (cintamayi 
panna) by first reflecting upon the specific nature of the phenomena 
such as the aggregates, and then arousing reflective acquiescence in 
them. Next, he should perfect the preliminary portion of the wisdom 
born of meditation (pubbabhagabhavanapanna) by developing the 
mundane kinds of full understanding through the discernment of the 
specific and general characteristics of the aggregates, etc.22  To 
do so, he should fully understand all internal and external 
phenomena without exception as follows: "This is mere mentality-
materiality (namarupamatta), which arises and ceases according to 
conditions. There is here no agent or actor. It is impermanent in 
the sense of not being after having been; suffering in the sense of 
oppression by rise and fall; and non-self in the sense of being 
unsusceptible to the exercise of mastery." Comprehending them in 
this way, he abandons attachment to them, and helps others to do so 
as well. """"



When you 'vegitate out in front of TV' there are the processes of 
cittas you have been studying in the Abhidhamma. There is seeing and 
then many processes that think about what was seen- no self 
anywhere. The visible objects on the screen are rupa - so different 
from nama, but this can only be seen by right insight. There are 
different feelings that arise while watching- these can be 
insighted. There are many, many moments of ignorance about 
realities - ignorance is real, it is different from any moments of 
understanding, it can be known. There may be impatience when you 
feel you are not becoming wise fast enough - this is dosa, part of 
sankhara khandha, it propels action.

best wishes
robert


  Larry wrote:
> Hi Dan and Sarah, you have both made strong arguments for not 
practicing
> meditation, the gist of which is that the likelyhood of getting it
> perfectly right is nill, but I am sure we could find an equal 
number of
> imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma. In fact, given that 
there
> are zero living arahats, I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold 
path
> at all. It seems like the safest thing to do is turn on the tv and
> vegetate. 
> 
> Larry

 
14210 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:57pm
Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no 5

 
  Perfections Ch 2, no. 5

Each time we give, we should carefully investigate our citta. The citta
should truly be gentle and tender. We should not have contempt for the
people who ask for something or dislike the things we give; we should not
give discarded objects, not even to unrestrained beggars who revile and
abuse us. 
Can we follow this up? The person who receives a gift may be annoyed, or
sometimes his behaviour may be most impolite. But still, the citta of the
person who gives can be gentle and tender. He can give without dislike of
the receiver. It may happen that the receiver is unrestrained in his
behaviour, that his conduct is improper, or that he reviles the person who
gives; he may be angry, he may say that the other person gives too little,
or that he does not want to have the things that are given. However, inspite
of this, the citta of the giver should be steadfast in kusala.
We read in the Commentary:

He gives invariably with confidence, with compassion and respect.

In this way one can eradicate one¹s own defilements, also when giving.
The Commentary states:

He does not give through belief in superstitious omens: but he gives
believing in kamma and its fruit. When he gives he does not afflict those
who ask by making them do homage to him, etc.; but he gives without
afflicting others. He does not give a gift with the intention of deceiving
others or with the intention of injuring; he gives only with an undefiled
mind. He does not give a gift with harsh words or a frown, but with words of
endearment, congenial speech, and a smile on his face.
Whenever greed for a particular object becomes excessive, due to its high
value and beauty, its antiquity, or because attachment has been accumulated
since a long time, the Bodhisatta recognizes his greed, quickly dispels it,
seeks out some recipients, and gives it away.

A person who understands himself well knows the extent of his clinging, he
knows when he can give up something or when he cannot. Sometimes he may
think of giving, but he is not able to give. However, as we read, it is
different for the Bodhisatta.
The passage quoted above deals with the giving of material goods, åmisa
dåna. The Commentary gives many more details of the Bodhisatta¹s practice
while he developed the perfections in order to attain the supreme
enlightenment as the Sammå-Sambuddha. However, I shall now only deal with a
few details so that people can investigate more carefully their own citta in
order to develop kusala further.
The Commentary states about the giving of freedom from fear, abhaya dåna:

The giving of freedom from fear is the giving of protection to beings when
they have become frightened on account of kings, thieves, fire, water,
enemies, lions, tigers, other wild beasts, dragons, ogres, demons, goblins,
etc.

 
14211 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [dsg]Patisambhidamagga 2 and practice.

 
  Dear Num, thank you for all the trouble.
What you quote is part of the Co, the Intro, and this does not exist in
English. I looked at my Thai edition. It is too long to translate all, but I
would like to elaborate somewhat on a few passages.
op 06-07-2002 03:32 schreef Num op Num
> 
>  Num: The introduction (gantharambhakatha) then refers to Vibhanga. According
to 
> suttantabha_jani_ya (fine classification according to suttas)
> patisambhidavibanga, there are 5 aspects of PTSM.
Nina: See Book of Analysis Ch 15, and for further study its Co. Dispeller of
Delusion II, Ch 15.
Num:  1.Saccava_ra (truths section)
> 2.Hetuva_ra (causes section)
> 3.Dhammava_ra (dhamma section)
> 4.Paccayakarava_ra (paticcasamuppada section)
> 5.Pariyattidhammava_ra (discourse section)

Nina: here the four discriminations are applied to the four noble Truths. Of
course this is all very detailed, and it shows that there are many methods
of explaining. It is also to be applied to the Dependent Origination. As
Robert explained: there is not one cause and one fruit, but many causes and
many fruits.    
Num:  1) Saccava_ra: Discriminating panna in dukkha is atthapatisambhida.
> Discriminating panna in causes of dukkha (lobha) is dhammapatisambhida.
> Discriminating panna in nibbana is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in
> magga is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those
> dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all dhammas is
> patibhana-patisambhida. (Dukkha is a consequence, lobha is a cause, nibbana
> is the consequence, magga is the cause).
..............
> 
> 2 levels of patisambhida: sekhabhumi (sotapattimagga/pala-arahatmagga) and
> asekhabhumi (arahatpala).

Nina: Sekha: the ariyan who is not arahat. The Co. mentions names and we see
that even enlightened  layfollowers at that time had this discriminative
knowledge: such as Upali and Khujjuttara. Of course there were different
levels of these discriminative knowledges.

Num: 5 factors of clearness/'purity (visada): adhigama
> (attainment of arahat level), pariyatti (studying the Buddha teaching),
> savana (listening), paripuccha (well-rounded examination and
> cross-examination, literally: well-rounded asking/analyzing), and pubbayoga
> (previous practice of vipassana).

Nina: As to listening, the Co states:

<listening to the true Dhamma is savana, listening. The discriminative
knowledge  of someone who is interested in the Dhamma by having reverence
for it is clear. >
I like this: listening with respect for the Dhamma, that means, really
considering what one hears, not passive listening and forgetting
immediately. 
Then , pubbayoga, previous training is one condition. The Dispeller
explains: the carrying forth and carrying back of the meditation subject in
former times. (This is what I was reading about in the co to the Fruits of a
Recluse). The Co to the Patis. elaborates more about this:

<Former practice is: the application to the meditation subjects of vipassana
again and again, until the arising of the stage of insight that is:
sankarupekkha ~naa.na (equanimity towards conditioned realities) which is
close to adaptation knowledge and change of lineage (the last two before
enlightenment), thus, the development of vipassana that the meditator
(yogavacara) had practised according to the teachings of former Buddhas.
Thus, the discriminative knowledge of such a person is clear....>
Now comes a part I find of particular importance:

Num:  Then the book mentioned the importance of samma_dit.th.i as the
preceding 
> factor of n~a_na. "one knows samma-dit.th.i as samma_dit.th.i, micchdit.th.i
> as micchadit.th.i. That knowledge is samma-dit.th.i. Then repeat for one
> knows sammaŠ(another 7 magga factors) as sammaŠ, knows micchaŠ(another 7
> magga factors) as micchaŠ  That knowledge is sammaŠ. The writer (also
> A.Supee) then emphasizes on importance of n~a_na(panna) by pointing out that
> is the reason why the book of patisambhidamagga is starting with n~a_nakatha.

Nina: The Co stresses:
<Understanding is the beginning of the practice, because it is the dhamma
that purifies from stains as to the practice. >
The Co stresses that sammaditthi is the leader.

My remarks: it is panna that can see when there is wrong understanding. This
is most important, how easily can wrong understanding slip in, and then
there are "stains as to the practice". It can happen so easily that we take
for sati what is only thinking, even very quick thinking, of realities. Now
I find that the perfection of sincerity, of truthfulness is essential. Do we
wish to recognize that we are not so advanced as we would like to be? It
takes courage to recognize this. But what does it matter, it is so much to
be preferred to live according to the truth. I liked Ranil's post, saying he
found out that he knew so little when meeting A. Sujin. That is sincerity,
and from that point on one can learn gradually more. If one deludes oneself,
no way. As Sarah quoted from a tape of a. Sujin: <A moment of awareness is
different from a moment of no awareness. Understanding knows the difference
without any selection> Whatever arises is conditioned, it appears already.
In that way it can be clear what sati is that also arises when there are
conditions, not when we try to focus on something or want it to arise.  And
A. Sujin also stressed: detachment is the goal. I remember what Ven.
Dhammadaro once said, very plainly: "What do you want awareness for? To show
it to others?" The foregoing passage of the Co. to the Patis. very much
concerns the practice.
Now another passage concerning the practice:
 
Num: The introduction then ended with a quote from san.gi_tisutta,
> dighanikaya/patikavaggo, from the section of fours: 4 factors of attaining
> sotapana. 1) Association with the wise (sappurissam.sevo) 2) dhamma listening
> (saddhammasasavanam.) 3) proper/wise/thorough consideration
> (yonisomanasikaro) <<atthakatha : reflection over aniccalakkhna,
> dukkhalakkhana, and anattalakkhana>>, and 4) practice dhamma according to
> dhamma (dhammanudhammapatipat.t.i) << from atthakatha: this refers to 4
> satipatthana, ekayanamagga, pubbabha_gamagga(magga at the beginning)>>.

Nina: We need association with the wise, because if we are on our own, we
can delude ourselves so easily. We can take thinking for awareness. We
forget that detachment is the goal: how we like to make progress, my
progress. 
As to no 4: we often see this text: dhammanudhammapatipa.t.ti: practice of
dhamma according to dhamma: anudhamma. The second dhamma refers to the nine
lokuttara dhammas, A. Supee explained in India. If there is no right
practice lokuttara dhammas can never be reached. That is why A. Sujin will
ask us time and again: do we know what seeing and visible object now are?
Hearing and sound? Nama is different from rupa, but do we know only in
theory? If that is so we have to begin considering carefully any reality
that appears now. It has to be right from the very beginning. If we do not
gradually learn the difference between nama and rupa, not just by thinking,
no way to ever reach the first stage of tender insight.
Thank you, Num, the texts helped me to consider more.
I am looking forward to  notes of the next sessions, in particular about
what  A. Sujin says about the connection of the Patis. with daily life.
This is what we need above all.
With appreciation,
Nina.

 
14212 From: yuzhonghao  <Victor> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 10:12pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Hi Dan,

My suggestion is:

Sit in a secluded place.  Cross the legs.  Close the eyes.  Keep the 
back erect.  Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities.  
Focus the mind on in and out breathing.  After sitting, you might 
want to check your experience against the definition/description of 
right concentration in the Pali Canon.  If you have a teacher, talk 
to him to get feedback too. 

Regards,
Victor

---  "onco111"  wrote:
> Dear Victor,
> Most critical is to know the difference between "Right 
concentration" 
> and wrong concentration. But right concentration does not develop 
all 
> by itself, it must be accompanied by right view; otherwise, there 
is 
> no understanding of the difference between concentration and right 
> concentration and no development of right concentration. 
> 
> What is your suggestion for developing right concentration?
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> > Hi Dan and Sarah,
> > 
> > Questions for you:
> > 
> > How would you develop right concentration? 
> > What is your suggestion on developing right concentration?
> > 
> > Thank you.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Victor
> > 
> > 
> > ---  "onco111"  wrote:

 
14213 From: yuzhonghao  <Victor> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 10:24pm
Subject: Yuganaddha Sutta - In Tandem

 
  Anguttara Nikaya IV.170
Yuganaddha Sutta
In Tandem
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's 
monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" 
"Yes, friend," the monks responded. 

Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the 
attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of 
one or another of four paths. Which four? 

"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by 
tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the 
path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he 
follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are 
abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. 

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity 
preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, 
the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As 
he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are 
abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. 

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in 
tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with 
insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues 
it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his 
fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. 

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness 
concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under 
control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, 
settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is 
born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows 
the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, 
his obsessions destroyed. 

"Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in 
my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four 
paths." 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html

 
14214 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 10:34pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats

 
  Dear Larry and Dan, I would like to quote from an old post:

<The Buddha thought of people with different accumulations. He praised
samatha, and the person who deserves the highest respect is the person
endowed with jhanas, supranatural powers and the four <analytical
knowledges>, patisambiddhas. In the Co. it has been explained that when
further away from the Buddha's time the arahats have less excellent
qualities, no more analytical knowledges. In the Co. to the In the
³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch X,
on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of
this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. This Commentary explains about the degrees
of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing
away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still arahats
with the four ³analytical knowledges², paìisambhidå . In the following
period of  thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka,
those who had not attained any stage  of jhåna, but who had developed only
insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who
have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of
thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of
thousand years there are only sotåpannas.>

Nina. 


> I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure
> she has a good source.
> 




 
14215 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson  <<>> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 11:13pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats

 
  Dear Friends, 
Thanks for this post.  I was wondering why this has happened?  Does anyone have any ideas?  
With metta, shakti
  Nina van Gorkom  wrote: Dear Larry and Dan, I would like to quote from an old post:

samatha, and the person who deserves the highest respect is the person
endowed with jhanas, supranatural powers and the four knowledges>, patisambiddhas. In the Co. it has been explained that when
further away from the Buddha's time the arahats have less excellent
qualities, no more analytical knowledges. In the Co. to the In the
³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch X,
on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of
this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. This Commentary explains about the degrees
of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing
away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still arahats
with the four ³analytical knowledges², paìisambhidå . In the following
period of thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka,
those who had not attained any stage of jhåna, but who had developed only
insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who
have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of
thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of
thousand years there are only sotåpannas.>

Nina. 


> I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure
> she has a good source.
> 





 
14216 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 7:35pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats

 
  Hi, Shakti, Nina, and all -

       I haven't seen any reference to this pointed out from within the 
suttas, though that doesnt mean it isn't there. What there does seem to be in 
the suttas are indications that a given dispensation of the Buddhadhamma, as 
with all conditioned phenomena, eventually declines, degrades, and finally 
ceases. One can imagine that as this process of decline moves forward, there 
would be decreasing success in practicing the Dhamma due to decreasing 
understanding of it. As far as the precision of the timeline and the details o
f the decline are concerned, well, I take that with a grain of salt.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 7/7/02 11:14:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
<> writes:


> Dear Friends, 
> Thanks for this post.  I was wondering why this has happened?  Does anyone 
> have any ideas?  
> With metta, shakti
>   Nina van Gorkom  wrote: Dear Larry and Dan, I would like 
> to quote from an old post:
> 
> samatha, and the person who deserves the highest respect is the person
> endowed with jhanas, supranatural powers and the four knowledges>, 
> patisambiddhas. In the Co. it has been explained that when
> further away from the Buddha's time the arahats have less excellent
> qualities, no more analytical knowledges. In the Co. to the In the
> ³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch 
> X,
> on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of
> this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. This Commentary explains about the degrees
> of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing
> away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still 
> arahats
> with the four ³analytical knowledges², paìisambhidå . In the following
> period of thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka,
> those who had not attained any stage of jhåna, but who had developed only
> insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who
> have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of
> thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of
> thousand years there are only sotåpannas.>
> 
> Nina. 
> 
> 
> > I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure
> > she has a good source.
> > 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14217 From: frank kuan   
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 2:47am
Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats

 
  What do you wannabe when you grow up?
I wannabe an Arahant
Couldn't make it as a worldling.
Worldly joys can not satiate. 
Unworldly joy relaxed and easy.
Beyond worldly and unworldly joy they say,
is even better than you can imagine.

-fk




 
14218 From: <> 
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 8:44am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (4)

 
  Dear group, this story of Maha Tissa's awakening is particularly
interesting to me.  Not only is it in a 'daily life' satipatthana
situation, it is also _external_ kayanupassana. In addition, the vipaka
citta is not a kusala citta of a young woman 'tricked out like a
celestial nymph' but rather an akusala citta of her teeth which were
experienced as a perception of foulness, the javana citta that lead to
his awakening. 

I thought I would print it again to see if anyone had any additional
comments.

Larry
---------------------
In the 'Visuddhimagga' (I, 55) we read about the 'Elder' Maha-Tissa : 

...It seems that as the Elder was on his way from Cetiya-pabbata to
Anuradhapura for alms, a certain daughter-in-law of a clan, who had
quarrelled with her husband and had set out early from Anuradhapura all
dressed up and tricked out like a celestial nymph to go to her
relatives' home, saw him on the road, and being low-minded, she laughed
a loud laugh. (Wondering) 'What is that?", the Elder looked up, and
finding in the bones of her teeth the perception of foulness, he reached
Arahantship. Hence it was said : 'He saw the bones that were her teeth,
And kept in mind his first perception; And standing on that very spot,
The Elder became an Arahant.' But her husband who was going after her
saw the Elder and asked 'Venerable sir, did you by any chance see a
woman?' The Elder told him: 'Whether it was a man or woman That went by
I noticed not ; But only that on this high road There goes a group of
bones.'

Maha-Tissa was not absorbed in the object he experienced, nor entranced
by the details. He realized when he perceived the woman's teeth the
'foulness of the body' and he did not take what he perceived for 'self'.
The perception of the 'foulness of the body' reminds us not to see the
self in the body, but to realize bodily phenomena as rupas which do not
stay. Maha-Tissa saw things as they are; the panna arising at that
moment was to the degree that it could eradicate all defilements.

 
 
14219 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 5:36am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (4)

 
  Hi, Larry -

       Maha Tissa was ready, he was prepared, he was primed - the fruit was 
ready to fall from the tree, it only needed a slight breeze to push it off.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 7/7/02 8:46:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> 
writes:


> 
> Dear group, this story of Maha Tissa's awakening is particularly
> interesting to me.  Not only is it in a 'daily life' satipatthana
> situation, it is also _external_ kayanupassana. In addition, the vipaka
> citta is not a kusala citta of a young woman 'tricked out like a
> celestial nymph' but rather an akusala citta of her teeth which were
> experienced as a perception of foulness, the javana citta that lead to
> his awakening. 
> 
> I thought I would print it again to see if anyone had any additional
> comments.
> 
> Larry
> ---------------------
> In the 'Visuddhimagga' (I, 55) we read about the 'Elder' Maha-Tissa : 
> 
> ...It seems that as the Elder was on his way from Cetiya-pabbata to
> Anuradhapura for alms, a certain daughter-in-law of a clan, who had
> quarrelled with her husband and had set out early from Anuradhapura all
> dressed up and tricked out like a celestial nymph to go to her
> relatives' home, saw him on the road, and being low-minded, she laughed
> a loud laugh. (Wondering) 'What is that?", the Elder looked up, and
> finding in the bones of her teeth the perception of foulness, he reached
> Arahantship. Hence it was said : 'He saw the bones that were her teeth,
> And kept in mind his first perception; And standing on that very spot,
> The Elder became an Arahant.' But her husband who was going after her
> saw the Elder and asked 'Venerable sir, did you by any chance see a
> woman?' The Elder told him: 'Whether it was a man or woman That went by
> I noticed not ; But only that on this high road There goes a group of
> bones.'
> 
> Maha-Tissa was not absorbed in the object he experienced, nor entranced
> by the details. He realized when he perceived the woman's teeth the
> 'foulness of the body' and he did not take what he perceived for 'self'.
> The perception of the 'foulness of the body' reminds us not to see the
> self in the body, but to realize bodily phenomena as rupas which do not
> stay. Maha-Tissa saw things as they are; the panna arising at that
> moment was to the degree that it could eradicate all defilements.
> 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14220 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 3:49pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] introduction

 
  Dear Ruth (and any other newbies here),

 --- Ruth Klein  wrote: > Hello.  I joined this
group yesterday and have been amazed at the number
> and depths of the messages received so far!  Just for that I felt it
> better to introduce myself, rather than lurk - even though I probably
> won't have much to post later.  

A warm welcome to DSG and thank you for setting such a good example to
other newbies with this introduction. I really hope some of the other
recent members will do the same. 

As you have found, there are some considerably detailed and in-depth
discussions on the Budha’s Teachings here and some threads go back a long
way. (I’ll try to give a little more help at the end of the post)

> I have been slowly coming around to Buddhist teachings.  It's taken me
> almost 3 years (talk about wading in at the shallow end!) and I keep
> exploring.  The past four months I have really committed myself to
> practice, though not so much study.  Later this summer I will be going
> on my first retreat - at Wat Metta in CA.  I joined this group while
> searching for a sangha of support; I'm travelling for the summer and
> feel cut off from my home community.
> 
> Well, I'll be around, reading more than anything... asking questions...

After wading in the shallow end, you may feel you’re plunging in the deep
end here (sometimes I do, anyway), but initially, just follow what is of
interest and seems applicable to you, if that helps.  Are you based in
California too? A few other members here are as well. Anyway, hope you
have a good summer of travel and dhamma reminders and look forward to any
of your questions or comments. Thanks again for posting this message and
for your interest in the vedana thread which I know Howard has helped
with. Hope you’ll join in on that one.

A few suggestions to any DSG newbies
=============================

1. Pali challenged? A very simple pali golssary can be found at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary
You’re also welcome to shout and ask for clarifications anytime -
sometimes we forget to add the English in brackets, esp. if it’s a word
that most people are used to here.

2. Want to find the start of a thread? Go to escribe (back-up for all
posts), click on the last message in the thread you are interested in: eg
‘vedana’, then click on where it says ‘view other messages in this thread’
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/

3. The escribe link is alo useful for finding messages by a particular
writer or for tracing a message or topic, using the search function.

4. Certain messages on particular themes such as ‘Pali’ or ‘Kamma’ or
‘Luminous Mind’ have been kept aside at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts
================================================

Please feel welcome to drop in on any threads or to start your own,and
never be concerned if it’s been discussed before or seems too simple.
You’ll be doing us all a favour.

If any of the links here don’t work, pls let me know (off-list perhaps)
and I’ll f/w them to Kom for attention!

Sarah
=====




 
14221 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 9:16pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Dan,

 --- onco111  wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you 
> are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different words.
.....
Mainly I think this is right, though I think there may be a few areas to
consider further. I think I misunderstood some of your comments before
too. This may have been partly because of having read the ‘jhana’ one
first, partly being somewhat confused by the ‘manufactured calm’, but
mainly because I couldn’t quite see why you raised these ‘imperfections of
insight’ from Vis XX. (Maybe also I’m still in shock that we’re in
agreement on so many essential aspects of the Teachings these days;-))
I’ve got both yr posts on this thread in front of me now, plus the Vism.

To get back to yr earlier post:

> In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX 
> 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of 
> phenomena such as illumination, rapture, tranquility, bliss, etc. 
.....
I’ve now looked at the section. These are very specific ‘imperfections’
only pertaining to ‘the beginner of insight’ or the one with tender
insight (as I understand). For example, the illumination is ‘illumination
due to insight’ and so on. I might as well mention here why I suggested
this ‘beginner’ stage is actually an advanced level of wisdom. Already at
this stage the conditioned nature of all namas and rupas is apparent
(past, present and future), all uncertainty in this regard is removed
(X1X,5f), kamma-vipaka, paticca samuppada are apparent with no doubt
remaining, ‘rise and fall in the two ways according to condition and
according to instant, the several truths, aspects of ..
> These phenomena may arise for one without insight in the course of 
> formal meditation by, say, directing the mind to a kasina or the 
> touch of the breath on the upper lip. However, these phenomena can 
> also arise "due to insight" in a "beginner of insight," according to 
> Vism. [107...] 
.....
I don’t understand that the very specific phenomena (i.e. the
‘imperfections’ you raise) arise without the insight specified. As you
discuss, anything can mimic anything and as we know from our old friends
the vancaka (cheating) dhammas, it’s always easy to be deceived by our
experiences, esp. as you go on to discuss, when we read the texts. (Larry:
pls note, if anything I’m questioning the reading of the texts here and am
not talking about meditation practices;-))
.....
>It may seem like a subtle distinction here -- whether 
> the calm is induced by directing the mind onto a particular object or 
> whether it is induced by insight -- but the distinction is clear. 
> With the purposive directing of the mind onto an object, there is a 
> repeated fixing of the attention on the object and the conscious 
> suppression of the hindrances.
.....
I’d rather just say that calm accompanies kusala cittas. The kusala cittas
are moments of dana, sila or bhavana. For the 2 kinds of bhavana (samatha
and vipassana) there must be understanding of the object. So I wouldn’t
use ‘induced by directing...’ and I’m not sure I’d use ‘induced by
insight’, but possibly. I’d have to think more about that one. 
.....
> With insight? 
> "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, 
> methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics 
> [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to 
> him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being 
> previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they 
> are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like 
> dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), 
> like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an 
> awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage 
> (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, 
> like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc.
> 
> "At this point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is 
> known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104]
.....
This is a good quote that I think reinforces the degree of wisdom required
here. To give an analogy. For those who climb Mt Everest, base camp is the
‘beginner’ level at which point the serious and dangerous climbing begins.
On the otherhand, for most of us worldlings, even trekking up to base camp
would be a high level of accomplishment. Beginner or advanced level? Is
the glass half full or half empty? I don't think this is so much a
question of conceit as of realism to be 'truthful' to the level of
understanding now as Nina was referring to (sacca parami). (I'll leave
your dust-rag red herring for now, Dan, but bring it up another time- a
discussion in itself;-))
.....
> "And now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, 
> ten imperfections of insight might arise in him. ...illumination due 
> to insight...knowledge due to insight...rapturous happiness due to 
> insight...tranquillity due to insight...bliss due to 
> insight...faith...well-exerted energy...well-founded 
> mindfulness...equanimity...attachment due to insight." [Vism XX 105-
> 122]. 
.....
So now we have clearly established we are only talking about a specific
level of insight and specific experiences at that level.

Back to the 2nd post:
===============
I fully agree and appreciate almost everything you wrote (much clearer for
me), so I’ll snip most of it for now. I also agree about the misleading
‘yardsticks’...many of us know just what you mean;-) Like I said to Sukin
about the meditation course, we can’t blame the teacher or the
Visuddhimagga or anything/one else....the characteristic of wrong view is
to assume what is wrong to be right. While it hasn’t been eradicated, it
will continue (as you point out so well) to mislead while following
special practices or as Larry points out, while studying abhidhamma or
other texts. (Larry, hope that’s passing your censor, more on this
tomorrow perhaps;-))
_________________________________________________________________ >In a
decade of formal practice, with annual 
> or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily practice on the 
> cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands of hours of manufactured 
> calm, peaceful-seeming times when even subtle sensations are noted 
> with ease, there may be scores of moments where there is a flash of 
> what seems to be insight when there is an apparent discontinuity in 
> the flow of consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these 
> moments come in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of 
> moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, say, 
> the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the way uppadana 
> paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a decade doesn't 
> qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', because there still needs to 
> be some consolidation of the insight, some development. But even the 
> softer, attenuated, trivial insights that are primarily conceptual 
> (complete with an 'Aha' flash) induce calm (kusala) -- just not at 
> the level where the 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') 
> arise, and not at the level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would 
> call 'beginning'. 
.....
OK, agreed. I’d probably go even further and question whether there really
can be any ‘moments of genuine insight’ if the distinction between
concepts and realities isn’t apparent (i.e if the object of panna isn’t
known). Yes, there will be calm accompanying conceptual rt understanding
(if it’s kusala), but this isn’t insight. If there is an ‘apparent
discontinuity of consciousness’, I’ve no idea what this is. Consciousness
never ‘discontinues’ as I understand.
.....
.> --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual 
> understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct understanding, especially 
> since we have so little (if any) direct understanding. Of course, 
> there may be clear understanding of the distinction between nama and 
> rupa at one moment, while confusion and doubt about it arise again 
> later -- moha is really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally 
> eradicated only with the supramundane path consciousness. 
.....
Finally eradicated yes, but gradually attenuated and removed at these
stages and different aspects of doubt about 1)n&r 2)kamma & conditions 3)
rise and fall of realities at these stages, to my understanding.
“When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly knows and sees the
sign. Hence ‘right seeing’ is said.  thus by inference from that all
formations are clearly seen as impermanent.  Herein doubt is
abandoned.....”X1X,26

Furthermore, I understand when the stages are realised, there can be no
doubt about it.
.....
> --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why I 
> don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to the person in 
> the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an understatement 
> for you!), but it looks to me like the 'with this tender insight' is 
> in the instrumental case, with the sense of insight 'bringing about' 
> the phenomena known as 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) 
> rather than insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in 
> insight. ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be 
> taken either way. 
.....
To be honest Dan, I don’t see the big deal and I don’t see the distinction
or am I being dim?.  We talk about the Buddha’s wisdom or the sotapanna’s
eradication of defilements and so on. We know there is no Buddha, but
we’re talking conventionally. I understand it to be talking about the
particular defilements arising in those with tender insight and
conditioned by it. Just like the ‘seeing sees’ old thread, it depends how
it’s understood and of course can yet again be the object of wrong view.
.....
>Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed 
> by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day 
> insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight about anatta 
> arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) arises -- "Aha! 
> Now I am a true beginner, so now when those meditation phenomena 
> arise in me, I'll know they are tender insight!" And then, "Aren't I 
> wise! Insight arises every morning and evening when I sit. All I need 
> to do to make insight arise is focus on the breath for a few minutes. 
> Then, illumination, etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on 
> my way to enlightenment." 
.....
Like you said at the start, we’re really in almost full agreement and
perhaps I wanted to really clarify this before looking at the other jhana
thread in more detail with you. I also appreciate that you have plenty of
first-hand experience to back up your comments about the dangers of this
aspect of wrong view and misunderstanding of the stages of insight. I’ve
also seen and heard of several monks and laypeople (usually very
intelligent and serious students) having a very hard time indeed as a
result. A hard time as a result of attachment and wrong view, but
conditioned by what is read or heard too. I think you’re doing a great
service by pointing out these pitfalls  (I hope you write a book one day
;-)). Dan and for the record, I have much respect for the courage shown by
you in facing up to the truth. It must be harder still, perhaps for those
who are revered and highly regarded.
..... 
> Sarah: A few comments in brief:
> 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 
> 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by 
> upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for akusala.
> 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even 
> though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), there 
> cannot be calm.
> 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or 
> insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise knowledge of 
> kilesa, neither can develop.
> 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to 
> cling and `distract'.
> 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest 
> of your snipped post.
> 
> 
> --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little 
> terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I presume you are 
> referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana cetasikas that 
> sound like various aspects of calm. 
.....
Primarily calm refers to passaddhi cetasika as you suggested earlier. Like
you suggest, though, all the 6 pairs accompany all all sobhana (beautiful)
cittas. Maybe more on this in the jhana thread later.
.....
>By "manufactured calm" I don't 
> necessarily mean these kusala cetasikas. I'm primarily referring to 
> the calm feelings that arise in the course of formal meditation, 
> which can be either kusala or akusala, depending on the attachment.
.....
..and ignorance. I was confused by the term when I last wrote....
..... 
> --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have 
> misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition too much 
> dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far between. Much 
> more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again.
.....
There are bound to be misunderstandings here, I’m sure.  You set a good
example (along with Goggy;-)) in accepting, seeing good intentions and
movng on......

I have a few posts ear-marked for reply, but I hope to get back on the
other one soon.

Sarah
=======
 


 
14222 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 9:55pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices

 
  Rob Ep

 --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > 
My criteria would also be whether a practice brings one towards the path
that
eventually brings one to enlightenment.  Any benefits that do not lead
towards
enlightenment or that delay or lead away from enlightenment, would not be 
wished
for, as they would prolong or increase suffering.

The question is, whether these practices aid the progress towards
enlightenment 
or
not.  And I am not sure whether either of us can know that with certainty 
either
pro or con.  At best we have our educated, or less educated, guesses, and
mine 
is
that if a practice creates conditions that are in line with the dhamma
then it 
is
an aid towards the path of enlightenment, and if not, then not.  If one
was to
develop genuine peacefulness and discernment through yoga, then the yoga
would 
be
an aid towards enlightenment.  If those qualities were developed on the
surface
but were accompanied by akusala pride in self at accomplishing these
qualities 
or
if they were masking other akusala effects that were in the wrong
direction, 
then
they would be obstacles, not aids.  There is still going to be personal
interpretation involved.  If a Sutta mentions that many arahants were
sitting 
in
the cross-legged position while entering the jhanas; I am sure that you
will 
say
this is a coincidence and that it is a description not a prescription; and
that 
I
will say it is the path itself.  <g>  Where do we each get our separate
interpretations?   My guess is that it is because of our backgrounds and
tendencies:  yours in Abhidhamma; mine in yoga and vipassana meditation as
well 
as
mahayana studies.  So is either one of us right, or are we just 'being 
ourselves'
and following our own predilections in this lifetime?

Jon:
Yes, a person's understanding of a given passage from the suttas is a
reflection of their personal interoperation and understanding.  However,
the original intended meaning is not, and it is that that we need to try
to ascertain.  

You say, "If one was to develop genuine peacefulness and discernment
through yoga, then the yoga would be an aid towards enlightenment."

Within the teachings there are discussions of the factors that if
developed lead to more understanding, so it is possible to compare those
parts of the texts with a given practice and see what similarities if any
there are.

I would see as somewhat unreliable the approach of undertaking the
practice first and then 'checking' the perceived results against
descriptions found in the texts (if that's what you're refering to).  I
would imagine that using that approach any number of practices could be
'justified' as being an aid.  Don’t you think it's rather subjective?  Why
not first consider whether the practice in question talks about the same
things as are found in the teachings?

Jon



 
14223 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 10:00pm
Subject: Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc)

 
  Howard

--- Howard wrote: 
> Hi, Jon -
…
>        I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts
certainly
> do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from
the
> Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking 
> meditation in the open air."
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a
translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'.   According to the
dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down
(as given in both PED and CPED).  If cankamana is the original, then the
'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss.  This is
perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a
prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the
translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation').

I was interested to read the 5 benefits of cankamana as summarised by
Goggy in a recent post.  In Goggy's words (I have yet to find the
original) they are: 
1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 
2) strengthen the mental effort for overall practice 
3) balancing between sitting and walking 
4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 
5) builds durable concentration. 

There is no indication here that the walking necessarily involves
'meditation', or that it is regarded as being of any particular benefit as
far as the development of understanding is concerned.  (Actually, these
remind me somewhat of the benefits given somewhere for eating congee.)

The problem with using 'meditation' in translations is that it has no
precise meaning in English, but can be read as implying any number of
things.

Jon



 
14224 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 6:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc)

 
  Hi, Jon -

       I know a lot of folks who do considerable walking as exercise, but I 
never noticed that they particularly developed "durable concentration".
       Oh -  one more point: It seems that every ongoing lineage within both 
Theravada and Mahayana has a walking meditation practice of long standing 
(centuries), and these differ hardly at all from each other. Don't you find 
this to be a rather surprising coincidence? (The Chinese, BTW, do two kinds: 
Slow walking with attention to the smallest details of position, placement, 
and sensation, and normal-speed walking with attention to the body as a 
whole, whereas the Theravadins seem to concentrate on the former.)

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 7/8/02 10:02:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> 
> Howard
> 
> --- Howard wrote: 
> > Hi, Jon -
> …
> >        I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts
> certainly
> > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from
> the
> > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking 
> > meditation in the open air."
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> 
> As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a
> translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'.   According to the
> dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down
> (as given in both PED and CPED).  If cankamana is the original, then the
> 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss.  This is
> perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a
> prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the
> translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation').
> 
> I was interested to read the 5 benefits of cankamana as summarised by
> Goggy in a recent post.  In Goggy's words (I have yet to find the
> original) they are: 
> 1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 
> 2) strengthen the mental effort for overall practice 
> 3) balancing between sitting and walking 
> 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 
> 5) builds durable concentration. 
> 
> There is no indication here that the walking necessarily involves
> 'meditation', or that it is regarded as being of any particular benefit as
> far as the development of understanding is concerned.  (Actually, these
> remind me somewhat of the benefits given somewhere for eating congee.)
> 
> The problem with using 'meditation' in translations is that it has no
> precise meaning in English, but can be read as implying any number of
> things.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14225 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Yuganaddha Sutta - In Tandem, and com. notes.

 
  Dear Victor and Dan, I quote the sutta in the PTs translation from an old
post. With Co notes. Dan will be interested to see notes on calm and
insight.
Nina. 


We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours( II, Ch XVI, §10, Coupled)
that Anada said :
Reverend sirs, when anyone, be it monk or nun, proclaaims in my presence
that he has attained arahatship, all such do so by virtue of four factors or
by one of these four. What are they?
Herein, your reverences, a monk develops insight preceded by calm. In him
thus developing insight preceded by calm is born the Way. He follows along
that Way, makes it grow, makes much of it... the fetters are abandoned, the
lurking tendencies come to an end.
Or again, your reverences, a monk develops calm preceded by insight. In him
thus developing calm preceded by insight is born the Way... the lurking
tendencies come to an end.
Yet again, your reverences, a monk develops calm-and-insight coupled. In him
thus developing.. the Way is born... the lurking tendencies come to an end.
Once more, your reverences, a monk¹s mind is utterly cleared of perplexities
about dhamma. That is the time, your reverences, when his thought stands
fixed in the very self, settles down, becomes one-pointed, is composed. In
him the Way is born... the lurking tendencies come to an end.

The Co explains that the Way is the first stage of enlightenment. As to the
second factor, the monk is already used to developing insight and then
samadhi arises. As to the third factor, he is aware and considers the
sankharas, jhanafactors, in between the different stages of jhana he enters
and emerges from. As to the fourth factor, he has abandoned the ten
defilements of vipassana. He does not cling to samatha nor to vipassana.

It is interesting that there is no special order, a person¹s way of
development depends on his accumulations.
I discussed calm and insight with A. Supee in India. He reminded me that
whenever we read about calm, it is implied that it goes together with
insight. For some people the factor calm is stronger, for others less
strong. And as Kom explained, when insight is developed there are conditions
for more calm, in a natural way. The sotapanna has more calm than the
ordinary person, because he has less defilements. The sotapanna who has
developed insight has such strong, unshakable confidence in the Triple gem,
and when there are conditions he can have great calm while contemplating the
Buddha¹s virtues. Only ariyans could attain access concentration with this
meditation subject. The person who has attained the third stage of
enlightenment, the anagami, is no longer attached to sense objects, thus,
naturally, he has a great deal of calm.
When we read about the ideal Recluse, he goes forth with the aim to attain
arahatship, and becomes endowed with the highest qualities. Taken into
account that we are further away from the Buddha¹s time, we can draw our
conclusions to what extent all such high qualities are still possible. Then,
when we read about jhanas, we will understand all these passages in their
rig