14200 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 7:02am
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  Hey Larry -  Frustration and discouragement are natural - welcome to 
Samsara, The Land of Dukkha...... "not getting what is wanted is 
dukkha".   Thank goodness you weren't struck by discouragement until 
I started to improve. :) 
This mob of Buddhists  won't all agree totally... That's just the way 
it is.  And they'll only give spoonfulls of teaching, and then expect 
and require that we explore, find, search, sift, reflect, verify and 
eventually 'know' for ourselves.
Who cares if they don't agree on meditation?  Try to find what works 
for you, take as long as it takes. Check everything against the 
Tipitaka.  Keep what measures up and works, keep an open mind, be 
kind and patient with yourself - and remember how much benefit you 
have brought to others by your exploring and struggling with 
ADL....    Thanks.

much metta,
Chris

---  Larry wrote:
> Hi Dan and Sarah, you have both made strong arguments for not 
practicing
> meditation, the gist of which is that the likelyhood of getting it
> perfectly right is nill, but I am sure we could find an equal 
number of
> imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma. In fact, given that 
there
> are zero living arahats, I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold 
path
> at all. It seems like the safest thing to do is turn on the tv and
> vegetate. 
> 
> Larry

 
14201 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:25am
Subject: There are problems, and then - there are PROBLEMS...

 
  Dear Group,

For those moments when your life seems colourless and flat, when the 
world closes in on you, when there seems no point and everything is 
difficult, when your practice is arid, when understanding won't come 
at your command, and when the international scene seems gloomy - just 
remember there are those with worse problems than you....

It's Winter, this is a sub-tropical area, and recently the night-time 
temperature has dropped to below freezing, so everyone human and non-
human is coping the best way they can.  Some have tried the 
geographical escape.
I came home unexpectedly and surprised some Intruders.  I found a 
pregnant lady rat....and a field mouse.....IN my house.  The 
Agreement has always been that THEY have the shed, the roof cavity, 
the old chicken coop and the fields - the humans and companion 
animals have the rooms of the house.  THEY have reneged on this 
Agreement.  We need Industrial Relations Mediation down here! This is 
different to, and more serious than, the 'noisy possums in the 
ceiling' problem, from Spring time.  When I made my unscheduled 
return home, the field mouse was in the kitchen waste bin. A dear 
little thing, he took four jumps to get out and I nearly had to give 
him a hoist up.  The lady rat is heavily pregnant and because her 
centre of gravity has radically shifted, is finding it hard to run 
fast on the floor tiles and squeezing under furniture is a real 
problem requiring much effort.
A friend once advised me to read Kinship with All Life and I've 
belatedly ordered it from Amazon, but doubt it'll arive before the 
lady rat's 'happy event'.  
So - what to do? Apart from the  stricter care with cleaning and 
removal of food sources. I have been pondering on the Precept against 
killing....Precepts are not to be kept only when convenient...... 
They are such warm and beautiful brown-eyed creatures....So full of 
panic and fear, and so wanting to live and not be harmed......... 
I've thought of putting food outside for them all, but feel this will 
just attract all the free-loaders in the neighbourhood to my place.
I have a non-harming cage trap for the mouse, and hope to find a much 
large version for the lady rat before she delivers. Though I  will 
still be causing suffering by transporting them into exile .....

Give me the 'Jhana or not to Jhana' problem anyday!

metta,
Chris

 
14202 From: onco111   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:58am
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you 
are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different 

words.

Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday:
"That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we 
know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep 

understanding of characteristics that appear now".

--> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed at 
the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry 

around. That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. Sometimes 
mana arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a 

lot!" 

That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that 
these various experiences that may arise in the course of 

formal sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender insight 
knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a 

meditation teacher may well not be arising from insight, but just as 
a consequence of developing concentration. Taking them 

as 'insight,' whether 'tender' or no, is a recipe for some very 
fattening lobha and moha -- sweet and tasty, perhaps, but 

quite unhealthy. This is especially true when there is very little 
insight associated with them. These little yardsticks for 

progress have done more to mislead millions of meditators than many 
mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be getting 

late...]

The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces calm, 
and that the calm it induces is different from the calm 

that is manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' in 
this context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that 

arises when the mind is repeatedly directed to a chosen object and 
dosa is cooled. Lobha? There may well be much lobha. The 

'choosing' and 'directing' are both evidence of lobha as well as 
conditions for generating more lobha. Not helpful. At the 

same time, though, the pleasantness grows and grows. And, encouraged 
by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as we find in 

Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as results of 
insight rather than lobha. 

Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am 
calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp 

concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', and 
equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with 

lobha may seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the 
real 'path,' but lobha is always accompanied by a 

restlessness (uddhacca, as an akusala universal), so calmness with 
lobha is not real calmness, even though it may seem so 

much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle and bustle of daily 
life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then -- the 

choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the mind 
there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured 

calm? Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating akusala 
by temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. 

It's not necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of it 
makes it very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy 

to think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I can 
do it," and then spend years and years (even decades) 

manufacturing lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I could 
do more of that, then I'd really be wise!" 

You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we know..."

<snip>
__________________________________________________________________
Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed 
[XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may 

experience a number of phenomena such as ....

Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to 
read them in the full context of the development of 

insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as 
beginning stages or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to 

differentiate them from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). 
However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly 

discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the second 
stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent 

without any ignorance or doubt. At the third stage, panna knows the 
rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling 

away. In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of 
wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly 

the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other 
realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, 

noticing or focussing on these phenomena.  A.Sujin gives a good 
summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha 

Dhammas" too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... 

--> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually all 
meditators experience and so commonly think of as 

'tender insight' may have nothing to do with insight at all. This 
distinction is easy to state and understand at a 

theoretical level, but understanding the difference is impossible 
without discernment of what 'insight' is and does. Here I 

don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of insight, but 
just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where it 

comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come 
from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, 

with annual or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily 
practice on the cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands 

of hours of manufactured calm, peaceful-seeming times when even 
subtle sensations are noted with ease, there may be scores of 

moments where there is a flash of what seems to be insight when there 
is an apparent discontinuity in the flow of 

consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these moments come 
in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of 

moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, say, 
the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the 

way uppadana paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a 
decade doesn't qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', 

because there still needs to be some consolidation of the insight, 
some development. But even the softer, attenuated, trivial 

insights that are primarily conceptual (complete with an 'Aha' flash) 
induce calm (kusala) -- just not at the level where the 

'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') arise, and not at the 
level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would call 

'beginning'. 

Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly 
developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the 

very common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem 
ourselves and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when 

we may not even be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. However, it 
may be that labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very 

highly developed' encourages conceit of a different kind -- the kind 
that esteems ourselves as 'low', the conceit that may 

lead us to aspire to be, say, like a dustrag. [The problem is not so 
much in the dustrag or what the metaphor represents, but 

in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully aware bhikkhu who sits 
under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because we want to 

be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves aware of the 
breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is 

different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a dustrag.] 
We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, 

including the conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call 
beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To 

counter the conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare 
kusala moments are; about the mountains of ignorance we 

bear with us; about the distinctions between calm with lobha, calm 
without lobha, and insight; about how most of what we take 

as 'insight' is really insight into concept and not into paramattha 
dhammas or conditionality; about how even beginner's 

level insight is 'development' but advanced concentration may not be, 
etc. 

Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent 
origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], 

and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then 
formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these 

states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, 
they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, 

but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), 
like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on 

water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a 
conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like 

the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth 
(Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this 

point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as 
a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104]....

Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, 
kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so 

on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct 
understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether 

it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing with 
Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually 

appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn't the clear 
understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa 

in practice without any doubt, then it's impossible to really 
understand these more refined levels of wisdom. ....

--> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual 
understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct 

understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct 
understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding 

of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while 
confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is 

really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only with 
the supramundane path consciousness. 

Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all 
these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation 

of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this 
tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in 

him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes 
a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights 

discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise 
in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be 

reckoned as imperfections of insight." <snip> In other words, does 
the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the 

occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on that... "Athassa 
imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa 

vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)

Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. Meanwhile, 
surely the discussion is about the conditions for these 

kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not arise 
at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why 

it is `tender' insight and not a power. Remember, only the sotapanna 
is on the path of `no return', so to speak. The person 

`with this tender insght' refers to the level of vipassana. Person or 
sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, 

if I misunderstand any of your comments here

--> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why I 
don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to 

the person in the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an 
understatement for you!), but it looks to me like the 

'with this tender insight' is in the instrumental case, with the 
sense of insight 'bringing about' the phenomena known as 

'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) rather than 
insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in insight. 

~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be taken either 
way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed 

by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day 
insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight 

about anatta arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) 
arises -- "Aha! Now I am a true beginner, so now when those 

meditation phenomena arise in me, I'll know they are tender insight!" 
And then, "Aren't I wise! Insight arises every morning 

and evening when I sit. All I need to do to make insight arise is 
focus on the breath for a few minutes. Then, illumination, 

etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on my way to 
enlightenment." 

Sarah: A few comments in brief:
1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 
2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by 
upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for 

akusala.
3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even 
though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), 

there cannot be calm.
4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or 
insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise 

knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop.
5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to 
cling and `distract'.
6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest 
of your snipped post.


--> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little 
terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I 

presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana 
cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. By 

"manufactured calm" I don't necessarily mean these kusala cetasikas. 
I'm primarily referring to the calm feelings that arise 

in the course of formal meditation, which can be either kusala or 
akusala, depending on the attachment.


Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly 
misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't 

condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, but 
wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first.

--> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have 
misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition 

too much dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far 
between. Much more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again.

Dan

 
14203 From: onco111   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:00am
Subject: Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Sarah,
Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you 
are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different words.

Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday:
"That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we 
know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep understanding 
of characteristics that appear now".

--> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed at 
the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry around. 
That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. Sometimes mana 
arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a lot!" 

That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that 
these various experiences that may arise in the course of formal 
sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender insight 
knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a meditation teacher 
may well not be arising from insight, but just as a consequence of 
developing concentration. Taking them as 'insight,' whether 'tender' 
or no, is a recipe for some very fattening lobha and moha -- sweet 
and tasty, perhaps, but quite unhealthy. This is especially true when 
there is very little insight associated with them. These little 
yardsticks for progress have done more to mislead millions of 
meditators than many mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be 
getting late...]

The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces calm, 
and that the calm it induces is different from the calm that is 
manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' in this 
context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that arises when the mind 
is repeatedly directed to a chosen object and dosa is cooled. Lobha? 
There may well be much lobha. The 'choosing' and 'directing' are both 
evidence of lobha as well as conditions for generating more lobha. 
Not helpful. At the same time, though, the pleasantness grows and 
grows. And, encouraged by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as 
we find in Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as 
results of insight rather than lobha. 

Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am 
calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp 
concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', and 
equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with lobha may 
seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the real 'path,' 
but lobha is always accompanied by a restlessness (uddhacca, as an 
akusala universal), so calmness with lobha is not real calmness, even 
though it may seem so much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle 
and bustle of daily life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then --
 the choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the 
mind there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured calm? 
Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating akusala by 
temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. It's not 
necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of it makes it 
very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy to 
think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I can do 
it," and then spend years and years (even decades) manufacturing 
lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I could do more of 
that, then I'd really be wise!" 

You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we know..."

<snip>
__________________________________________________________________
Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed 
[XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number 
of phenomena such as ....

Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to 
read them in the full context of the development of insight. The 
first three stages of insight are referred to as beginning stages 
or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to differentiate them 
from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). However, even at this 
stage, nama and rupa are clearly discerned. Realities are known as 
anatta. Furthermore, at the second stage, the conditioned nature of 
realities is apparent without any ignorance or doubt. At the third 
stage, panna knows the rapid succession of namas and rupas arising 
and falling away. In other words, there is a very highly developed 
degree of wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but 
directly the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or 
other realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, 
noticing or focussing on these phenomena.  A.Sujin gives a good 
summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" 
too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... 

--> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually all 
meditators experience and so commonly think of as 'tender insight' 
may have nothing to do with insight at all. This distinction is easy 
to state and understand at a theoretical level, but understanding the 
difference is impossible without discernment of what 'insight' is and 
does. Here I don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of 
insight, but just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where 
it comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come 
from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, with annual 
or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily practice on the 
cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands of hours of manufactured 
calm, peaceful-seeming times when even subtle sensations are noted 
with ease, there may be scores of moments where there is a flash of 
what seems to be insight when there is an apparent discontinuity in 
the flow of consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these 
moments come in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of 
moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, say, 
the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the way uppadana 
paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a decade doesn't 
qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', because there still needs to 
be some consolidation of the insight, some development. But even the 
softer, attenuated, trivial insights that are primarily conceptual 
(complete with an 'Aha' flash) induce calm (kusala) -- just not at 
the level where the 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') 
arise, and not at the level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would 
call 'beginning'. 

Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly 
developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the very 
common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem ourselves 
and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when we may not even 
be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. However, it may be that 
labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very highly developed' encourages 
conceit of a different kind -- the kind that esteems ourselves 
as 'low', the conceit that may lead us to aspire to be, say, like a 
dustrag. [The problem is not so much in the dustrag or what the 
metaphor represents, but in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully 
aware bhikkhu who sits under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because 
we want to be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves 
aware of the breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is 
different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a dustrag.] 
We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, including the 
conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call 
beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To counter the 
conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare kusala moments 
are; about the mountains of ignorance we bear with us; about the 
distinctions between calm with lobha, calm without lobha, and 
insight; about how most of what we take as 'insight' is really 
insight into concept and not into paramattha dhammas or 
conditionality; about how even beginner's level insight 
is 'development' but advanced concentration may not be, etc. 

Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent 
origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and 
characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then 
formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it 
seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they 
cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also 
short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on 
water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a 
mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a conjuring trick 
(S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling 
firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain 
trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this point he has attained tender insight-
knowledge...[and] is known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism 
XX.104]....

Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, 
kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so on, but we 
have to really consider whether this is direct understanding of the 
these characteristics of realities or whether it is conceptual 
understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing with Larry, it can be 
hard enough to even conceptually appreciate what vipaka or d.o, 
really means. If there isn't the clear understanding of the 
distinction between nama and rupa in practice without any doubt, then 
it's impossible to really understand these more refined levels of 
wisdom. ....

--> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual 
understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct understanding, especially 
since we have so little (if any) direct understanding. Of course, 
there may be clear understanding of the distinction between nama and 
rupa at one moment, while confusion and doubt about it arise again 
later -- moha is really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally 
eradicated only with the supramundane path consciousness. 

Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all 
these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation of 
the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this tender 
insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in him." The 
translation has a sense of "Once someone officially becomes a 
beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights discussed on the 
previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise in the course of 
meditation. These phenomena are to be reckoned as imperfections of 
insight." <snip> In other words, does the "with this tender insight" 
refer to the person or the occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert 
to bite on that... "Athassa imaaya taru.navipassanaaya 
aaraddhavipassakassa dasa vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of 
Vism. II on CSCD)

Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. Meanwhile, 
surely the discussion is about the conditions for these kilesa to 
arise at this level of tender insight which would not arise at higher 
levels. In other words, it is stressing why it is `tender' insight 
and not a power. Remember, only the sotapanna is on the path of `no 
return', so to speak. The person `with this tender insght' refers to 
the level of vipassana. Person or sotapanna are concepts as I know 
you know well. Sorry, if I misunderstand any of your comments here

--> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why I 
don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to the person in 
the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an understatement 
for you!), but it looks to me like the 'with this tender insight' is 
in the instrumental case, with the sense of insight 'bringing about' 
the phenomena known as 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) 
rather than insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in 
insight. ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be 
taken either way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed 
by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day 
insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight about anatta 
arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) arises -- "Aha! 
Now I am a true beginner, so now when those meditation phenomena 
arise in me, I'll know they are tender insight!" And then, "Aren't I 
wise! Insight arises every morning and evening when I sit. All I need 
to do to make insight arise is focus on the breath for a few minutes. 
Then, illumination, etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on 
my way to enlightenment." 

Sarah: A few comments in brief:
1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 
2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by 
upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for akusala.
3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even 
though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), there 
cannot be calm.
4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or 
insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise knowledge of 
kilesa, neither can develop.
5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to 
cling and `distract'.
6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest 
of your snipped post.


--> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little 
terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I presume you are 
referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana cetasikas that 
sound like various aspects of calm. By "manufactured calm" I don't 
necessarily mean these kusala cetasikas. I'm primarily referring to 
the calm feelings that arise in the course of formal meditation, 
which can be either kusala or akusala, depending on the attachment.


Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly 
misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't 
condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, but 
wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first.

--> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have 
misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition too much 
dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far between. Much 
more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again.

Dan

 
 
14204 From: onco111   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  Dear Sarah,
Nice comments from K.S... 

Development of samatha must be accompanied by panya, or it is more 
likely to be development of attachment. That's right. Now, the 
question is when is there panya? What are the characteristics? How 
can we discern the difference between panya and attachment? It is so 
difficult to do...

Dan

> "When there is some understanding that the wholesome and calm 
moments are
> so brief and infrequent, samatha bhavana can be developed by 
knowing which
> object can be a condition for calm. This is by understanding, not by
> wishing or focussing. By understanding the value of skilful cittas, 
it
> will be a condition for skilful reflections, such as thinking about 
others
> with metta. If there is concentrating on an object and wanting to 
develop
> more concentration, there is no detachment at these times from 
clinging
> and conceit. Samatha can only be developed when there is 
understanding
> more and more of how much attachment there is to sesnsuous objects. 
In
> other words, it's not just the object that is important, but for it 
to be
> a moment of samatha bhavana, there must be right understanding (at 
the
> level of samatha) at that moment. There can be reflection on death 
with or
> without understanding of how it calms the mind. When the citta is 
kusala,
> there will be more and more calm which may lead to stages of 
wholesome
> concentration with calm and understanding. Again it has to be right 
from
> the very beginning. A moment of awareness is different from a 
moment with
> no awareness. Understanding knows the difference without any 
selection. 
> 
> By developing satipatthana and samatha, this is the way that we 
learn what
> our `nature' is, what kind of carita (person) one is. It depends on
> individual accumulations whether metta or marana sati (recollection 
on
> death)  or even reflection on earth or solidity will condition calm 
and
> kusala cittas. For example, with regards to earth, we fight just to 
get
> `solidity'. reflecting wisely on the importance we attach 
to `earth' can
> be a condition for calm. Are we friendly and ready to help? Do we 
see the
> value of metta now?. There cannot be metta when there is craving.  
The
> deeds and speech may be the same, but <when there is metta it is> 
without
> the attachment. Like a mother to  child, without attachment. The 
purpose
> is to be detached. If we select breath, it suggests a wanting of 
that
> object. What is the purpose of concentrating on breath? It's useless
> without panna, otherwise it merely conditions attachment." <end 
quote>
> *****
> Sarah
> =====
>  
> 
> 

 
14205 From: onco111   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  Oh, Larry! You silly goose! I'm not making any argument for not 
practicing meditation. Yes, the likelihood of getting it right in a 
short time is close to nill. Same with studying Abhidhamma. This is 
no reason to abstain. On the contrary, we need to work and work, very 
hard, for years and years to win any noticeable development. False 
estimation of progress is a tremendously dangerous trap that stifles 
true development. To face the huge mountains of ignorance that we 
carry around on our backs takes tremendous courage and resolve. And 
we have to do it alone -- totally alone, with no Self to help! If we 
lean too hard on that Self, it will relish the burden and keep 
supporting us, on and on and on. 

I'm only saying that when you sit on the cushion, keep studying 
realities as they arise and pass away. One that is especially 
difficult to discern is lobha because lobha can be quite pleasant. Is 
pleasantness the goal of sitting? If so, then you wouldn't be much 
worse off watching TV (although TV isn't even very pleasant). 

Now for some specific responses:

Larry: In fact, given that there are zero living arahats
--> Dan: There are? Are you sure? How do you know? 

Larry: I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold path at all. 

--> Dan: You do? What is the 8-fold path (in your own words)?

Dan

P.S. I've really been enjoying your recent posts. Your hard work is 
an inspiration. Thank-you.

 
14206 From: yuzhonghao  <Victor> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 0:21pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Hi Dan and Sarah,

Questions for you:

How would you develop right concentration? 
What is your suggestion on developing right concentration?

Thank you.

Regards,
Victor


---  "onco111"  wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
> Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you 
> are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different 
> 
> words.
> 
> Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday:
> "That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we 
> know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep 
> 
> understanding of characteristics that appear now".
> 
> --> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed 
at 
> the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry 
> 
> around. That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. Sometimes 
> mana arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a 
> 
> lot!" 
> 
> That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that 
> these various experiences that may arise in the course of 
> 
> formal sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender 
insight 
> knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a 
> 
> meditation teacher may well not be arising from insight, but just 
as 
> a consequence of developing concentration. Taking them 
> 
> as 'insight,' whether 'tender' or no, is a recipe for some very 
> fattening lobha and moha -- sweet and tasty, perhaps, but 
> 
> quite unhealthy. This is especially true when there is very little 
> insight associated with them. These little yardsticks for 
> 
> progress have done more to mislead millions of meditators than many 
> mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be getting 
> 
> late...]
> 
> The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces calm, 
> and that the calm it induces is different from the calm 
> 
> that is manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' in 
> this context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that 
> 
> arises when the mind is repeatedly directed to a chosen object and 
> dosa is cooled. Lobha? There may well be much lobha. The 
> 
> 'choosing' and 'directing' are both evidence of lobha as well as 
> conditions for generating more lobha. Not helpful. At the 
> 
> same time, though, the pleasantness grows and grows. And, 
encouraged 
> by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as we find in 
> 
> Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as results of 
> insight rather than lobha. 
> 
> Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am 
> calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp 
> 
> concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', 
and 
> equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with 
> 
> lobha may seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the 
> real 'path,' but lobha is always accompanied by a 
> 
> restlessness (uddhacca, as an akusala universal), so calmness with 
> lobha is not real calmness, even though it may seem so 
> 
> much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle and bustle of daily 
> life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then -- the 
> 
> choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the mind 
> there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured 
> 
> calm? Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating 
akusala 
> by temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. 
> 
> It's not necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of 
it 
> makes it very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy 
> 
> to think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I 
can 
> do it," and then spend years and years (even decades) 
> 
> manufacturing lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I could 
> do more of that, then I'd really be wise!" 
> 
> You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we 
know..."
> 
> <snip>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are 
discussed 
> [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may 
> 
> experience a number of phenomena such as ....
> 
> Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to 
> read them in the full context of the development of 
> 
> insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as 
> beginning stages or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to 
> 
> differentiate them from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). 
> However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly 
> 
> discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the 
second 
> stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent 
> 
> without any ignorance or doubt. At the third stage, panna knows the 
> rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling 
> 
> away. In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of 
> wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly 
> 
> the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other 
> realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, 
> 
> noticing or focussing on these phenomena.  A.Sujin gives a good 
> summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha 
> 
> Dhammas" too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... 
> 
> --> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually 
all 
> meditators experience and so commonly think of as 
> 
> 'tender insight' may have nothing to do with insight at all. This 
> distinction is easy to state and understand at a 
> 
> theoretical level, but understanding the difference is impossible 
> without discernment of what 'insight' is and does. Here I 
> 
> don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of insight, but 
> just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where it 
> 
> comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come 
> from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, 
> 
> with annual or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily 
> practice on the cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands 
> 
> of hours of manufactured calm, peaceful-seeming times when even 
> subtle sensations are noted with ease, there may be scores of 
> 
> moments where there is a flash of what seems to be insight when 
there 
> is an apparent discontinuity in the flow of 
> 
> consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these moments come 
> in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of 
> 
> moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, 
say, 
> the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the 
> 
> way uppadana paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a 
> decade doesn't qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', 
> 
> because there still needs to be some consolidation of the insight, 
> some development. But even the softer, attenuated, trivial 
> 
> insights that are primarily conceptual (complete with an 'Aha' 
flash) 
> induce calm (kusala) -- just not at the level where the 
> 
> 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') arise, and not at the 
> level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would call 
> 
> 'beginning'. 
> 
> Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly 
> developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the 
> 
> very common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem 
> ourselves and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when 
> 
> we may not even be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. However, 
it 
> may be that labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very 
> 
> highly developed' encourages conceit of a different kind -- the 
kind 
> that esteems ourselves as 'low', the conceit that may 
> 
> lead us to aspire to be, say, like a dustrag. [The problem is not 
so 
> much in the dustrag or what the metaphor represents, but 
> 
> in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully aware bhikkhu who sits 
> under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because we want to 
> 
> be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves aware of 
the 
> breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is 
> 
> different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a dustrag.] 
> We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, 
> 
> including the conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call 
> beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To 
> 
> counter the conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare 
> kusala moments are; about the mountains of ignorance we 
> 
> bear with us; about the distinctions between calm with lobha, calm 
> without lobha, and insight; about how most of what we take 
> 
> as 'insight' is really insight into concept and not into paramattha 
> dhammas or conditionality; about how even beginner's 
> 
> level insight is 'development' but advanced concentration may not 
be, 
> etc. 
> 
> Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the 
dependent 
> origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], 
> 
> and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then 
> formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these 
> 
> states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being 
arisen, 
> they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, 
> 
> but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 
137), 
> like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on 
> 
> water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like a 
> conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like 
> 
> the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like froth 
> (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this 
> 
> point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known as 
> a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104]....
> 
> Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, 
> kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so 
> 
> on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct 
> understanding of the these characteristics of realities or whether 
> 
> it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing 
with 
> Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually 
> 
> appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn't the 
clear 
> understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa 
> 
> in practice without any doubt, then it's impossible to really 
> understand these more refined levels of wisdom. ....
> 
> --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse 
intellectual 
> understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct 
> 
> understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct 
> understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding 
> 
> of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while 
> confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is 
> 
> really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only with 
> the supramundane path consciousness. 
> 
> Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all 
> these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation 
> 
> of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this 
> tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in 
> 
> him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially 
becomes 
> a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights 
> 
> discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might arise 
> in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be 
> 
> reckoned as imperfections of insight." <snip> In other words, does 
> the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the 
> 
> occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on 
that... "Athassa 
> imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa 
> 
> vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)
> 
> Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. 
Meanwhile, 
> surely the discussion is about the conditions for these 
> 
> kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not 
arise 
> at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why 
> 
> it is `tender' insight and not a power. Remember, only the 
sotapanna 
> is on the path of `no return', so to speak. The person 
> 
> `with this tender insght' refers to the level of vipassana. Person 
or 
> sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, 
> 
> if I misunderstand any of your comments here
> 
> --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why 
I 
> don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to 
> 
> the person in the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an 
> understatement for you!), but it looks to me like the 
> 
> 'with this tender insight' is in the instrumental case, with the 
> sense of insight 'bringing about' the phenomena known as 
> 
> 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) rather than 
> insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in insight. 
> 
> ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be taken 
either 
> way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed 
> 
> by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day 
> insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight 
> 
> about anatta arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) 
> arises -- "Aha! Now I am a true beginner, so now when those 
> 
> meditation phenomena arise in me, I'll know they are tender 
insight!" 
> And then, "Aren't I wise! Insight arises every morning 
> 
> and evening when I sit. All I need to do to make insight arise is 
> focus on the breath for a few minutes. Then, illumination, 
> 
> etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on my way to 
> enlightenment." 
> 
> Sarah: A few comments in brief:
> 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 
> 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by 
> upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for 
> 
> akusala.
> 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even 
> though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), 
> 
> there cannot be calm.
> 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or 
> insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise 
> 
> knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop.
> 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to 
> cling and `distract'.
> 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the 
rest 
> of your snipped post.
> 
> 
> --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little 
> terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I 
> 
> presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of 
sobhana 
> cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. By 
> 
> "manufactured calm" I don't necessarily mean these kusala 
cetasikas. 
> I'm primarily referring to the calm feelings that arise 
> 
> in the course of formal meditation, which can be either kusala or 
> akusala, depending on the attachment.
> 
> 
> Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly 
> misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't 
> 
> condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, 
but 
> wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first.
> 
> --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have 
> misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition 
> 
> too much dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far 
> between. Much more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again.
> 
> Dan

 
14207 From: <> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 1:14pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  Thanks for clearing that up Dan. I thought you were being too hard on
meditators and not hard enough on abhidhamikas.

I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure
she has a good source.

Actually, by my estimate, there must be several thousand arahats at
least, surely. Maybe the reason we say there are no arahats is that it
would be conceited to compare arahats to people or people to arahats or
arahats to arahats.

Btw, I agree that tranquility follows insight; I almost said 'results'
from insight but I don't think tranquility is resultant. I think
tranquility in the sense of temporarily discontinuing the grasping
impulse is a little taste of nibbana. So if you are not sure if nibbana
is really what you want you could try out tranquility and see if it
fits.

best wishes, Larry

 
14208 From: onco111   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 5:20pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Dear Victor,
Most critical is to know the difference between "Right concentration" 
and wrong concentration. But right concentration does not develop all 
by itself, it must be accompanied by right view; otherwise, there is 
no understanding of the difference between concentration and right 
concentration and no development of right concentration. 

What is your suggestion for developing right concentration?

Dan


> Hi Dan and Sarah,
> 
> Questions for you:
> 
> How would you develop right concentration? 
> What is your suggestion on developing right concentration?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Regards,
> Victor
> 
> 
> ---  "onco111"  wrote:
> > Dear Sarah,
> > Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think 
you 
> > are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different 
> > 
> > words.
> > 
> > Sarah: As Nina was commenting to Ranil yesterday:
> > "That is the conclusion of all of us all the time: how little we 
> > know. We know in theory, but that is not the real, deep 
> > 
> > understanding of characteristics that appear now".
> > 
> > --> Dan: This is always such a good reminder! I'm often impressed 
> at 
> > the enormity of the mountains of ignorance that I carry 
> > 
> > around. That's not always the conclusion I draw, though. 
Sometimes 
> > mana arises, and the conclusion then is: "I really know a 
> > 
> > lot!" 
> > 
> > That was one of the two main points I was trying to make -- that 
> > these various experiences that may arise in the course of 
> > 
> > formal sitting that seem to match the description of 'tender 
> insight 
> > knowledge' that we read from Vism. or hear from a 
> > 
> > meditation teacher may well not be arising from insight, but just 
> as 
> > a consequence of developing concentration. Taking them 
> > 
> > as 'insight,' whether 'tender' or no, is a recipe for some very 
> > fattening lobha and moha -- sweet and tasty, perhaps, but 
> > 
> > quite unhealthy. This is especially true when there is very 
little 
> > insight associated with them. These little yardsticks for 
> > 
> > progress have done more to mislead millions of meditators than 
many 
> > mountains of mundane moha (maybe). [Must be getting 
> > 
> > late...]
> > 
> > The other point I was trying to make is that insight induces 
calm, 
> > and that the calm it induces is different from the calm 
> > 
> > that is manufactured during a formal sit. A 'manufactured calm' 
in 
> > this context is simply the pleasant peacefulness that 
> > 
> > arises when the mind is repeatedly directed to a chosen object 
and 
> > dosa is cooled. Lobha? There may well be much lobha. The 
> > 
> > 'choosing' and 'directing' are both evidence of lobha as well as 
> > conditions for generating more lobha. Not helpful. At the 
> > 
> > same time, though, the pleasantness grows and grows. And, 
> encouraged 
> > by a teacher or riveting descriptions such as we find in 
> > 
> > Vism., we can wrongly understand these phenomena as results of 
> > insight rather than lobha. 
> > 
> > Part of the problem is that it is so easy to confuse what I am 
> > calling 'calm' (pleasant suppression of dosa with sharp 
> > 
> > concentration) with tranquillity (passaddhi), the other 'pairs', 
> and 
> > equanimity (tatramajjhattataa or upekkha). Calmness with 
> > 
> > lobha may seem like real peace, real happiness, real kusala, the 
> > real 'path,' but lobha is always accompanied by a 
> > 
> > restlessness (uddhacca, as an akusala universal), so calmness 
with 
> > lobha is not real calmness, even though it may seem so 
> > 
> > much calmer and more pleasant than the hustle and bustle of daily 
> > life. It is even akusala. What of the sit, then -- the 
> > 
> > choosing of an object for concentration and the directing the 
mind 
> > there and the suppression of dosa and the manufactured 
> > 
> > calm? Very commonly, it is a wonderful vehicle for generating 
> akusala 
> > by temporarily replacing dosa with lobha. Not helpful. 
> > 
> > It's not necessarily like that, but the 'manufacturing' aspect of 
> it 
> > makes it very difficult for it not to be. It's very easy 
> > 
> > to think, "Aha! 'Difficult' maybe, but I'm different. I'm wary. I 
> can 
> > do it," and then spend years and years (even decades) 
> > 
> > manufacturing lobha and moha, maybe even thinking, "If only I 
could 
> > do more of that, then I'd really be wise!" 
> > 
> > You are right to often emphasize the theme of "how little we 
> know..."
> > 
> > <snip>
> > __________________________________________________________________
> > Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are 
> discussed 
> > [XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may 
> > 
> > experience a number of phenomena such as ....
> > 
> > Sarah: When we read these quotes about the "beginner", we have to 
> > read them in the full context of the development of 
> > 
> > insight. The first three stages of insight are referred to as 
> > beginning stages or `tender insight' (tiirana vipassanaa) to 
> > 
> > differentiate them from `insight as power' (balava vipassanaa). 
> > However, even at this stage, nama and rupa are clearly 
> > 
> > discerned. Realities are known as anatta. Furthermore, at the 
> second 
> > stage, the conditioned nature of realities is apparent 
> > 
> > without any ignorance or doubt. At the third stage, panna knows 
the 
> > rapid succession of namas and rupas arising and falling 
> > 
> > away. In other words, there is a very highly developed degree of 
> > wisdom accumulated to know, not just in theory, but directly 
> > 
> > the arising and falling away of seeing or visible object or other 
> > realities appearing. This is not the same as considering, 
> > 
> > noticing or focussing on these phenomena.  A.Sujin gives a good 
> > summary of the stages of insight in "Survey of Paramattha 
> > 
> > Dhammas" too: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... 
> > 
> > --> Dan: Yes, that's right. The pleasant phenomena that virtually 
> all 
> > meditators experience and so commonly think of as 
> > 
> > 'tender insight' may have nothing to do with insight at all. This 
> > distinction is easy to state and understand at a 
> > 
> > theoretical level, but understanding the difference is impossible 
> > without discernment of what 'insight' is and does. Here I 
> > 
> > don't mean a deep understanding of the whole power of insight, 
but 
> > just a recognition of a moment of simple insight, where it 
> > 
> > comes from (or, perhaps more importantly, where it *doesn't* come 
> > from), and what it does. In a decade of formal practice, 
> > 
> > with annual or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily 
> > practice on the cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands 
> > 
> > of hours of manufactured calm, peaceful-seeming times when even 
> > subtle sensations are noted with ease, there may be scores of 
> > 
> > moments where there is a flash of what seems to be insight when 
> there 
> > is an apparent discontinuity in the flow of 
> > 
> > consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these moments 
come 
> > in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of 
> > 
> > moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, 
> say, 
> > the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the 
> > 
> > way uppadana paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a 
> > decade doesn't qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', 
> > 
> > because there still needs to be some consolidation of the 
insight, 
> > some development. But even the softer, attenuated, trivial 
> > 
> > insights that are primarily conceptual (complete with an 'Aha' 
> flash) 
> > induce calm (kusala) -- just not at the level where the 
> > 
> > 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') arise, and not at the 
> > level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would call 
> > 
> > 'beginning'. 
> > 
> > Now, what Buddhagosa calls 'beginning,' you call 'very highly 
> > developed' wisdom. I suspect that you do this to stopper the 
> > 
> > very common (almost ubiquitous) tendency we have to overesteem 
> > ourselves and our wisdom, thinking we are quite advanced when 
> > 
> > we may not even be 'beginners' yet. I like the sentiment. 
However, 
> it 
> > may be that labelling 'beginning' insight as 'very 
> > 
> > highly developed' encourages conceit of a different kind -- the 
> kind 
> > that esteems ourselves as 'low', the conceit that may 
> > 
> > lead us to aspire to be, say, like a dustrag. [The problem is not 
> so 
> > much in the dustrag or what the metaphor represents, but 
> > 
> > in the aspiring -- like mimicking the fully aware bhikkhu who 
sits 
> > under a tree in the Satipatthana sutta because we want to 
> > 
> > be like him. When wisdom arises, we might find ourselves aware of 
> the 
> > breath or we might resemble a dustrag, but this is 
> > 
> > different from aspiring to be a bhikkhu under a tree or a 
dustrag.] 
> > We must be alert to all kinds of conceit, Sarah, 
> > 
> > including the conceit, "I don't understand anything." Let's call 
> > beginning 'beginning' instead of 'highly developed'. To 
> > 
> > counter the conceit of overestimation, we can talk about how rare 
> > kusala moments are; about the mountains of ignorance we 
> > 
> > bear with us; about the distinctions between calm with lobha, 
calm 
> > without lobha, and insight; about how most of what we take 
> > 
> > as 'insight' is really insight into concept and not into 
paramattha 
> > dhammas or conditionality; about how even beginner's 
> > 
> > level insight is 'development' but advanced concentration may not 
> be, 
> > etc. 
> > 
> > Dan: With insight? "When the several truths, aspects of the 
> dependent 
> > origination, methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], 
> > 
> > and characteristics [anatta] have become evident to him thus, 
then 
> > formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these 
> > 
> > states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being 
> arisen, 
> > they cease.' And they are not only perpetually renewed, 
> > 
> > but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 
> 137), 
> > like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on 
> > 
> > water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an awl's out core, like 
a 
> > conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like 
> > 
> > the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, like 
froth 
> > (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc. "At this 
> > 
> > point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is known 
as 
> > a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104]....
> > 
> > Sarah: We may think we have some understanding of 
dep.origination, 
> > kamma/vipaka, the rising and falling of realities and so 
> > 
> > on, but we have to really consider whether this is direct 
> > understanding of the these characteristics of realities or 
whether 
> > 
> > it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As I'm discussing 
> with 
> > Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually 
> > 
> > appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn't the 
> clear 
> > understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa 
> > 
> > in practice without any doubt, then it's impossible to really 
> > understand these more refined levels of wisdom. ....
> > 
> > --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse 
> intellectual 
> > understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct 
> > 
> > understanding, especially since we have so little (if any) direct 
> > understanding. Of course, there may be clear understanding 
> > 
> > of the distinction between nama and rupa at one moment, while 
> > confusion and doubt about it arise again later -- moha is 
> > 
> > really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally eradicated only 
with 
> > the supramundane path consciousness. 
> > 
> > Dan: An aside -- Here, I'm curious about the Pali. With all 
> > these 'due to insight' comments, I wonder about the translation 
> > 
> > of the first line: "...when he is a beginner of insight with this 
> > tender insight, ten imperfections of insight might arise in 
> > 
> > him." The translation has a sense of "Once someone officially 
> becomes 
> > a beginner of insight (i.e. after he has the insights 
> > 
> > discussed on the previous pages), a number of phenomena might 
arise 
> > in the course of meditation. These phenomena are to be 
> > 
> > reckoned as imperfections of insight." <snip> In other words, 
does 
> > the "with this tender insight" refer to the person or the 
> > 
> > occasion? Maybe we can get a Pali expert to bite on 
> that... "Athassa 
> > imaaya taru.navipassanaaya aaraddhavipassakassa dasa 
> > 
> > vipassanupakkilesaa uppajjanti."(§732 of Vism. II on CSCD)
> > 
> > Sarah: Dan, I'll look f/w to any bites by any experts too. 
> Meanwhile, 
> > surely the discussion is about the conditions for these 
> > 
> > kilesa to arise at this level of tender insight which would not 
> arise 
> > at higher levels. In other words, it is stressing why 
> > 
> > it is `tender' insight and not a power. Remember, only the 
> sotapanna 
> > is on the path of `no return', so to speak. The person 
> > 
> > `with this tender insght' refers to the level of vipassana. 
Person 
> or 
> > sotapanna are concepts as I know you know well. Sorry, 
> > 
> > if I misunderstand any of your comments here
> > 
> > --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's 
why 
> I 
> > don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to 
> > 
> > the person in the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's 
an 
> > understatement for you!), but it looks to me like the 
> > 
> > 'with this tender insight' is in the instrumental case, with the 
> > sense of insight 'bringing about' the phenomena known as 
> > 
> > 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) rather than 
> > insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in insight. 
> > 
> > ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be taken 
> either 
> > way. Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed 
> > 
> > by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one 
day 
> > insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight 
> > 
> > about anatta arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) 
> > arises -- "Aha! Now I am a true beginner, so now when those 
> > 
> > meditation phenomena arise in me, I'll know they are tender 
> insight!" 
> > And then, "Aren't I wise! Insight arises every morning 
> > 
> > and evening when I sit. All I need to do to make insight arise is 
> > focus on the breath for a few minutes. Then, illumination, 
> > 
> > etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on my way to 
> > enlightenment." 
> > 
> > Sarah: A few comments in brief:
> > 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 
> > 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but 
by 
> > upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for 
> > 
> > akusala.
> > 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even 
> > though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), 
> > 
> > there cannot be calm.
> > 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or 
> > insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise 
> > 
> > knowledge of kilesa, neither can develop.
> > 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to 
> > cling and `distract'.
> > 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the 
> rest 
> > of your snipped post.
> > 
> > 
> > --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a 
little 
> > terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I 
> > 
> > presume you are referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of 
> sobhana 
> > cetasikas that sound like various aspects of calm. By 
> > 
> > "manufactured calm" I don't necessarily mean these kusala 
> cetasikas. 
> > I'm primarily referring to the calm feelings that arise 
> > 
> > in the course of formal meditation, which can be either kusala or 
> > akusala, depending on the attachment.
> > 
> > 
> > Sarah: I've already said too much, I'm sure and I've possibly 
> > misunderstood your comments. I hope any misunderstanding isn't 
> > 
> > condition for dosa;-( I also need to re-read the section in Vism, 
> but 
> > wanted to at least acknowledge your fine posts first.
> > 
> > --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have 
> > misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition 
> > 
> > too much dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far 
> > between. Much more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again.
> > 
> > Dan

 
14209 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:42pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  ---
Dear Larry,
I just got back from Tokyo and red a few posts. So far I haven't 
seen anywhere where Sarah or Dan are saying don't meditate. In fact 
I think both of them consistently in hundreds of posts have been 
saying meditate as much as possible - but do it with right view. 
We have a very short life - a hundred years or less - and if we 
limit the time to develop insight to our imagined 'ideal 
sitauation'i.e. when I am sitting, or when I am standing, or when I 
am alone, or when I am with others who are doing the same thing, or 
when I am concentrated, then we will subtlely assume that other 
moments are not the right time for insight, and then there may be 
neglect and falling away.
The bodhisatta was invigorated when he realised the difficulty of 
the task:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of
20insight.htm#treatise

"""If he were to hear: ".... If he were to hear: "He alone can 
attain Buddhahood who can cut through a whole world-system that has 
become a jungle of thorny creepers covered by a solid thicket of 
bamboo, cross out, and reach the other side," etc .... If he were to 
hear: "Buddhahood can only be attained after being tortured in hell 
for four incalculables and a 100,000 aeons" -- he would not deem 
that difficult to do, but would be filled with desire for the task 
and would not shrink away."""

The five aggregates are samsara vatta, the round of births and 
deaths. They arise and cease endlessly, continuosly fueled by 
ignorance and craving. The way out is not by fooling ourself about 
progress but only by the true eightfold path. I believe there has to 
be investigation and consideration of the teachings for right view 
and the other factors to arise.
 

 """Thus, with wisdom, mindfulness, and energy preceded by skilful 
means, a bodhisattva should first thoroughly immerse himself in this 
entire sphere of learning -[i.ethe five aggregates, the twelve sense 
bases, the eighteen elements, the four truths, the twenty-two 
faculties, the twelve factors of dependent origination, the 
foundations of mindfulness, etc., the various classifications of 
phenomena such as the wholesome, etc.,]- through study, listening, 
memorization, learning, and interrogation..........
    Then he should develop wisdom born of reflection (cintamayi 
panna) by first reflecting upon the specific nature of the phenomena 
such as the aggregates, and then arousing reflective acquiescence in 
them. Next, he should perfect the preliminary portion of the wisdom 
born of meditation (pubbabhagabhavanapanna) by developing the 
mundane kinds of full understanding through the discernment of the 
specific and general characteristics of the aggregates, etc.22  To 
do so, he should fully understand all internal and external 
phenomena without exception as follows: "This is mere mentality-
materiality (namarupamatta), which arises and ceases according to 
conditions. There is here no agent or actor. It is impermanent in 
the sense of not being after having been; suffering in the sense of 
oppression by rise and fall; and non-self in the sense of being 
unsusceptible to the exercise of mastery." Comprehending them in 
this way, he abandons attachment to them, and helps others to do so 
as well. """"



When you 'vegitate out in front of TV' there are the processes of 
cittas you have been studying in the Abhidhamma. There is seeing and 
then many processes that think about what was seen- no self 
anywhere. The visible objects on the screen are rupa - so different 
from nama, but this can only be seen by right insight. There are 
different feelings that arise while watching- these can be 
insighted. There are many, many moments of ignorance about 
realities - ignorance is real, it is different from any moments of 
understanding, it can be known. There may be impatience when you 
feel you are not becoming wise fast enough - this is dosa, part of 
sankhara khandha, it propels action.

best wishes
robert


  Larry wrote:
> Hi Dan and Sarah, you have both made strong arguments for not 
practicing
> meditation, the gist of which is that the likelyhood of getting it
> perfectly right is nill, but I am sure we could find an equal 
number of
> imperfections in our own study of abhidhamma. In fact, given that 
there
> are zero living arahats, I wonder about the efficacy of the 8-fold 
path
> at all. It seems like the safest thing to do is turn on the tv and
> vegetate. 
> 
> Larry

 
14210 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:57pm
Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no 5

 
  Perfections Ch 2, no. 5

Each time we give, we should carefully investigate our citta. The citta
should truly be gentle and tender. We should not have contempt for the
people who ask for something or dislike the things we give; we should not
give discarded objects, not even to unrestrained beggars who revile and
abuse us. 
Can we follow this up? The person who receives a gift may be annoyed, or
sometimes his behaviour may be most impolite. But still, the citta of the
person who gives can be gentle and tender. He can give without dislike of
the receiver. It may happen that the receiver is unrestrained in his
behaviour, that his conduct is improper, or that he reviles the person who
gives; he may be angry, he may say that the other person gives too little,
or that he does not want to have the things that are given. However, inspite
of this, the citta of the giver should be steadfast in kusala.
We read in the Commentary:

He gives invariably with confidence, with compassion and respect.

In this way one can eradicate one¹s own defilements, also when giving.
The Commentary states:

He does not give through belief in superstitious omens: but he gives
believing in kamma and its fruit. When he gives he does not afflict those
who ask by making them do homage to him, etc.; but he gives without
afflicting others. He does not give a gift with the intention of deceiving
others or with the intention of injuring; he gives only with an undefiled
mind. He does not give a gift with harsh words or a frown, but with words of
endearment, congenial speech, and a smile on his face.
Whenever greed for a particular object becomes excessive, due to its high
value and beauty, its antiquity, or because attachment has been accumulated
since a long time, the Bodhisatta recognizes his greed, quickly dispels it,
seeks out some recipients, and gives it away.

A person who understands himself well knows the extent of his clinging, he
knows when he can give up something or when he cannot. Sometimes he may
think of giving, but he is not able to give. However, as we read, it is
different for the Bodhisatta.
The passage quoted above deals with the giving of material goods, åmisa
dåna. The Commentary gives many more details of the Bodhisatta¹s practice
while he developed the perfections in order to attain the supreme
enlightenment as the Sammå-Sambuddha. However, I shall now only deal with a
few details so that people can investigate more carefully their own citta in
order to develop kusala further.
The Commentary states about the giving of freedom from fear, abhaya dåna:

The giving of freedom from fear is the giving of protection to beings when
they have become frightened on account of kings, thieves, fire, water,
enemies, lions, tigers, other wild beasts, dragons, ogres, demons, goblins,
etc.

 
14211 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [dsg]Patisambhidamagga 2 and practice.

 
  Dear Num, thank you for all the trouble.
What you quote is part of the Co, the Intro, and this does not exist in
English. I looked at my Thai edition. It is too long to translate all, but I
would like to elaborate somewhat on a few passages.
op 06-07-2002 03:32 schreef Num op Num
> 
>  Num: The introduction (gantharambhakatha) then refers to Vibhanga. According
to 
> suttantabha_jani_ya (fine classification according to suttas)
> patisambhidavibanga, there are 5 aspects of PTSM.
Nina: See Book of Analysis Ch 15, and for further study its Co. Dispeller of
Delusion II, Ch 15.
Num:  1.Saccava_ra (truths section)
> 2.Hetuva_ra (causes section)
> 3.Dhammava_ra (dhamma section)
> 4.Paccayakarava_ra (paticcasamuppada section)
> 5.Pariyattidhammava_ra (discourse section)

Nina: here the four discriminations are applied to the four noble Truths. Of
course this is all very detailed, and it shows that there are many methods
of explaining. It is also to be applied to the Dependent Origination. As
Robert explained: there is not one cause and one fruit, but many causes and
many fruits.    
Num:  1) Saccava_ra: Discriminating panna in dukkha is atthapatisambhida.
> Discriminating panna in causes of dukkha (lobha) is dhammapatisambhida.
> Discriminating panna in nibbana is atthapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in
> magga is dhammapatisambhida. Discriminating panna in using language for those
> dhammas is niruttipatisambhida. Discriminating panna in all dhammas is
> patibhana-patisambhida. (Dukkha is a consequence, lobha is a cause, nibbana
> is the consequence, magga is the cause).
..............
> 
> 2 levels of patisambhida: sekhabhumi (sotapattimagga/pala-arahatmagga) and
> asekhabhumi (arahatpala).

Nina: Sekha: the ariyan who is not arahat. The Co. mentions names and we see
that even enlightened  layfollowers at that time had this discriminative
knowledge: such as Upali and Khujjuttara. Of course there were different
levels of these discriminative knowledges.

Num: 5 factors of clearness/'purity (visada): adhigama
> (attainment of arahat level), pariyatti (studying the Buddha teaching),
> savana (listening), paripuccha (well-rounded examination and
> cross-examination, literally: well-rounded asking/analyzing), and pubbayoga
> (previous practice of vipassana).

Nina: As to listening, the Co states:

<listening to the true Dhamma is savana, listening. The discriminative
knowledge  of someone who is interested in the Dhamma by having reverence
for it is clear. >
I like this: listening with respect for the Dhamma, that means, really
considering what one hears, not passive listening and forgetting
immediately. 
Then , pubbayoga, previous training is one condition. The Dispeller
explains: the carrying forth and carrying back of the meditation subject in
former times. (This is what I was reading about in the co to the Fruits of a
Recluse). The Co to the Patis. elaborates more about this:

<Former practice is: the application to the meditation subjects of vipassana
again and again, until the arising of the stage of insight that is:
sankarupekkha ~naa.na (equanimity towards conditioned realities) which is
close to adaptation knowledge and change of lineage (the last two before
enlightenment), thus, the development of vipassana that the meditator
(yogavacara) had practised according to the teachings of former Buddhas.
Thus, the discriminative knowledge of such a person is clear....>
Now comes a part I find of particular importance:

Num:  Then the book mentioned the importance of samma_dit.th.i as the
preceding 
> factor of n~a_na. "one knows samma-dit.th.i as samma_dit.th.i, micchdit.th.i
> as micchadit.th.i. That knowledge is samma-dit.th.i. Then repeat for one
> knows sammaŠ(another 7 magga factors) as sammaŠ, knows micchaŠ(another 7
> magga factors) as micchaŠ  That knowledge is sammaŠ. The writer (also
> A.Supee) then emphasizes on importance of n~a_na(panna) by pointing out that
> is the reason why the book of patisambhidamagga is starting with n~a_nakatha.

Nina: The Co stresses:
<Understanding is the beginning of the practice, because it is the dhamma
that purifies from stains as to the practice. >
The Co stresses that sammaditthi is the leader.

My remarks: it is panna that can see when there is wrong understanding. This
is most important, how easily can wrong understanding slip in, and then
there are "stains as to the practice". It can happen so easily that we take
for sati what is only thinking, even very quick thinking, of realities. Now
I find that the perfection of sincerity, of truthfulness is essential. Do we
wish to recognize that we are not so advanced as we would like to be? It
takes courage to recognize this. But what does it matter, it is so much to
be preferred to live according to the truth. I liked Ranil's post, saying he
found out that he knew so little when meeting A. Sujin. That is sincerity,
and from that point on one can learn gradually more. If one deludes oneself,
no way. As Sarah quoted from a tape of a. Sujin: <A moment of awareness is
different from a moment of no awareness. Understanding knows the difference
without any selection> Whatever arises is conditioned, it appears already.
In that way it can be clear what sati is that also arises when there are
conditions, not when we try to focus on something or want it to arise.  And
A. Sujin also stressed: detachment is the goal. I remember what Ven.
Dhammadaro once said, very plainly: "What do you want awareness for? To show
it to others?" The foregoing passage of the Co. to the Patis. very much
concerns the practice.
Now another passage concerning the practice:
 
Num: The introduction then ended with a quote from san.gi_tisutta,
> dighanikaya/patikavaggo, from the section of fours: 4 factors of attaining
> sotapana. 1) Association with the wise (sappurissam.sevo) 2) dhamma listening
> (saddhammasasavanam.) 3) proper/wise/thorough consideration
> (yonisomanasikaro) <<atthakatha : reflection over aniccalakkhna,
> dukkhalakkhana, and anattalakkhana>>, and 4) practice dhamma according to
> dhamma (dhammanudhammapatipat.t.i) << from atthakatha: this refers to 4
> satipatthana, ekayanamagga, pubbabha_gamagga(magga at the beginning)>>.

Nina: We need association with the wise, because if we are on our own, we
can delude ourselves so easily. We can take thinking for awareness. We
forget that detachment is the goal: how we like to make progress, my
progress. 
As to no 4: we often see this text: dhammanudhammapatipa.t.ti: practice of
dhamma according to dhamma: anudhamma. The second dhamma refers to the nine
lokuttara dhammas, A. Supee explained in India. If there is no right
practice lokuttara dhammas can never be reached. That is why A. Sujin will
ask us time and again: do we know what seeing and visible object now are?
Hearing and sound? Nama is different from rupa, but do we know only in
theory? If that is so we have to begin considering carefully any reality
that appears now. It has to be right from the very beginning. If we do not
gradually learn the difference between nama and rupa, not just by thinking,
no way to ever reach the first stage of tender insight.
Thank you, Num, the texts helped me to consider more.
I am looking forward to  notes of the next sessions, in particular about
what  A. Sujin says about the connection of the Patis. with daily life.
This is what we need above all.
With appreciation,
Nina.

 
14212 From: yuzhonghao  <Victor> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 10:12pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Hi Dan,

My suggestion is:

Sit in a secluded place.  Cross the legs.  Close the eyes.  Keep the 
back erect.  Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities.  
Focus the mind on in and out breathing.  After sitting, you might 
want to check your experience against the definition/description of 
right concentration in the Pali Canon.  If you have a teacher, talk 
to him to get feedback too. 

Regards,
Victor

---  "onco111"  wrote:
> Dear Victor,
> Most critical is to know the difference between "Right 
concentration" 
> and wrong concentration. But right concentration does not develop 
all 
> by itself, it must be accompanied by right view; otherwise, there 
is 
> no understanding of the difference between concentration and right 
> concentration and no development of right concentration. 
> 
> What is your suggestion for developing right concentration?
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> > Hi Dan and Sarah,
> > 
> > Questions for you:
> > 
> > How would you develop right concentration? 
> > What is your suggestion on developing right concentration?
> > 
> > Thank you.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Victor
> > 
> > 
> > ---  "onco111"  wrote:

 
14213 From: yuzhonghao  <Victor> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 10:24pm
Subject: Yuganaddha Sutta - In Tandem

 
  Anguttara Nikaya IV.170
Yuganaddha Sutta
In Tandem
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
For free distribution only. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's 
monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" 
"Yes, friend," the monks responded. 

Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the 
attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of 
one or another of four paths. Which four? 

"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by 
tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the 
path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he 
follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are 
abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. 

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity 
preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, 
the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As 
he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are 
abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. 

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in 
tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with 
insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues 
it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his 
fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. 

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness 
concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under 
control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, 
settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is 
born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows 
the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, 
his obsessions destroyed. 

"Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in 
my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four 
paths." 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Revised: Mon 10 September 2001 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html

 
14214 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 10:34pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats

 
  Dear Larry and Dan, I would like to quote from an old post:

<The Buddha thought of people with different accumulations. He praised
samatha, and the person who deserves the highest respect is the person
endowed with jhanas, supranatural powers and the four <analytical
knowledges>, patisambiddhas. In the Co. it has been explained that when
further away from the Buddha's time the arahats have less excellent
qualities, no more analytical knowledges. In the Co. to the In the
³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch X,
on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of
this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. This Commentary explains about the degrees
of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing
away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still arahats
with the four ³analytical knowledges², paìisambhidå . In the following
period of  thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka,
those who had not attained any stage  of jhåna, but who had developed only
insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who
have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of
thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of
thousand years there are only sotåpannas.>

Nina. 


> I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure
> she has a good source.
> 




 
14215 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson  <<>> 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 11:13pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats

 
  Dear Friends, 
Thanks for this post.  I was wondering why this has happened?  Does anyone have any ideas?  
With metta, shakti
  Nina van Gorkom  wrote: Dear Larry and Dan, I would like to quote from an old post:

samatha, and the person who deserves the highest respect is the person
endowed with jhanas, supranatural powers and the four knowledges>, patisambiddhas. In the Co. it has been explained that when
further away from the Buddha's time the arahats have less excellent
qualities, no more analytical knowledges. In the Co. to the In the
³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch X,
on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of
this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. This Commentary explains about the degrees
of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing
away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still arahats
with the four ³analytical knowledges², paìisambhidå . In the following
period of thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka,
those who had not attained any stage of jhåna, but who had developed only
insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who
have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of
thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of
thousand years there are only sotåpannas.>

Nina. 


> I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure
> she has a good source.
> 





 
14216 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 7:35pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats

 
  Hi, Shakti, Nina, and all -

       I haven't seen any reference to this pointed out from within the 
suttas, though that doesnt mean it isn't there. What there does seem to be in 
the suttas are indications that a given dispensation of the Buddhadhamma, as 
with all conditioned phenomena, eventually declines, degrades, and finally 
ceases. One can imagine that as this process of decline moves forward, there 
would be decreasing success in practicing the Dhamma due to decreasing 
understanding of it. As far as the precision of the timeline and the details o
f the decline are concerned, well, I take that with a grain of salt.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 7/7/02 11:14:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
<> writes:


> Dear Friends, 
> Thanks for this post.  I was wondering why this has happened?  Does anyone 
> have any ideas?  
> With metta, shakti
>   Nina van Gorkom  wrote: Dear Larry and Dan, I would like 
> to quote from an old post:
> 
> samatha, and the person who deserves the highest respect is the person
> endowed with jhanas, supranatural powers and the four knowledges>, 
> patisambiddhas. In the Co. it has been explained that when
> further away from the Buddha's time the arahats have less excellent
> qualities, no more analytical knowledges. In the Co. to the In the
> ³Samantapåsådikå², in the Commentary to the Vinaya, to the Cullavagga, Ch 
> X,
> on Nuns, the decline of Buddhism has been explained in the Buddha era of
> this Buddha, the Buddha Gotama. This Commentary explains about the degrees
> of paññå of ariyans in the different periods after the Buddha¹s passing
> away. During the period of the first thousand years there were still 
> arahats
> with the four ³analytical knowledges², paìisambhidå . In the following
> period of thousand years there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka,
> those who had not attained any stage of jhåna, but who had developed only
> insight. In the third period of thousand years there are only people who
> have attained the state of non-returner, anågåmí, in the fourth period of
> thousand years there are only sakadågåmís and in the fifth period of
> thousand years there are only sotåpannas.>
> 
> Nina. 
> 
> 
> > I don't really think there are no arahats, but Nina said so and I'm sure
> > she has a good source.
> > 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14217 From: frank kuan   
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 2:47am
Subject: Re: [dsg] arahats

 
  What do you wannabe when you grow up?
I wannabe an Arahant
Couldn't make it as a worldling.
Worldly joys can not satiate. 
Unworldly joy relaxed and easy.
Beyond worldly and unworldly joy they say,
is even better than you can imagine.

-fk




 
14218 From: <> 
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 8:44am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (4)

 
  Dear group, this story of Maha Tissa's awakening is particularly
interesting to me.  Not only is it in a 'daily life' satipatthana
situation, it is also _external_ kayanupassana. In addition, the vipaka
citta is not a kusala citta of a young woman 'tricked out like a
celestial nymph' but rather an akusala citta of her teeth which were
experienced as a perception of foulness, the javana citta that lead to
his awakening. 

I thought I would print it again to see if anyone had any additional
comments.

Larry
---------------------
In the 'Visuddhimagga' (I, 55) we read about the 'Elder' Maha-Tissa : 

...It seems that as the Elder was on his way from Cetiya-pabbata to
Anuradhapura for alms, a certain daughter-in-law of a clan, who had
quarrelled with her husband and had set out early from Anuradhapura all
dressed up and tricked out like a celestial nymph to go to her
relatives' home, saw him on the road, and being low-minded, she laughed
a loud laugh. (Wondering) 'What is that?", the Elder looked up, and
finding in the bones of her teeth the perception of foulness, he reached
Arahantship. Hence it was said : 'He saw the bones that were her teeth,
And kept in mind his first perception; And standing on that very spot,
The Elder became an Arahant.' But her husband who was going after her
saw the Elder and asked 'Venerable sir, did you by any chance see a
woman?' The Elder told him: 'Whether it was a man or woman That went by
I noticed not ; But only that on this high road There goes a group of
bones.'

Maha-Tissa was not absorbed in the object he experienced, nor entranced
by the details. He realized when he perceived the woman's teeth the
'foulness of the body' and he did not take what he perceived for 'self'.
The perception of the 'foulness of the body' reminds us not to see the
self in the body, but to realize bodily phenomena as rupas which do not
stay. Maha-Tissa saw things as they are; the panna arising at that
moment was to the degree that it could eradicate all defilements.

 
 
14219 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 5:36am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (4)

 
  Hi, Larry -

       Maha Tissa was ready, he was prepared, he was primed - the fruit was 
ready to fall from the tree, it only needed a slight breeze to push it off.

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 7/7/02 8:46:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> 
writes:


> 
> Dear group, this story of Maha Tissa's awakening is particularly
> interesting to me.  Not only is it in a 'daily life' satipatthana
> situation, it is also _external_ kayanupassana. In addition, the vipaka
> citta is not a kusala citta of a young woman 'tricked out like a
> celestial nymph' but rather an akusala citta of her teeth which were
> experienced as a perception of foulness, the javana citta that lead to
> his awakening. 
> 
> I thought I would print it again to see if anyone had any additional
> comments.
> 
> Larry
> ---------------------
> In the 'Visuddhimagga' (I, 55) we read about the 'Elder' Maha-Tissa : 
> 
> ...It seems that as the Elder was on his way from Cetiya-pabbata to
> Anuradhapura for alms, a certain daughter-in-law of a clan, who had
> quarrelled with her husband and had set out early from Anuradhapura all
> dressed up and tricked out like a celestial nymph to go to her
> relatives' home, saw him on the road, and being low-minded, she laughed
> a loud laugh. (Wondering) 'What is that?", the Elder looked up, and
> finding in the bones of her teeth the perception of foulness, he reached
> Arahantship. Hence it was said : 'He saw the bones that were her teeth,
> And kept in mind his first perception; And standing on that very spot,
> The Elder became an Arahant.' But her husband who was going after her
> saw the Elder and asked 'Venerable sir, did you by any chance see a
> woman?' The Elder told him: 'Whether it was a man or woman That went by
> I noticed not ; But only that on this high road There goes a group of
> bones.'
> 
> Maha-Tissa was not absorbed in the object he experienced, nor entranced
> by the details. He realized when he perceived the woman's teeth the
> 'foulness of the body' and he did not take what he perceived for 'self'.
> The perception of the 'foulness of the body' reminds us not to see the
> self in the body, but to realize bodily phenomena as rupas which do not
> stay. Maha-Tissa saw things as they are; the panna arising at that
> moment was to the degree that it could eradicate all defilements.
> 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14220 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 3:49pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] introduction

 
  Dear Ruth (and any other newbies here),

 --- Ruth Klein  wrote: > Hello.  I joined this
group yesterday and have been amazed at the number
> and depths of the messages received so far!  Just for that I felt it
> better to introduce myself, rather than lurk - even though I probably
> won't have much to post later.  

A warm welcome to DSG and thank you for setting such a good example to
other newbies with this introduction. I really hope some of the other
recent members will do the same. 

As you have found, there are some considerably detailed and in-depth
discussions on the Budha’s Teachings here and some threads go back a long
way. (I’ll try to give a little more help at the end of the post)

> I have been slowly coming around to Buddhist teachings.  It's taken me
> almost 3 years (talk about wading in at the shallow end!) and I keep
> exploring.  The past four months I have really committed myself to
> practice, though not so much study.  Later this summer I will be going
> on my first retreat - at Wat Metta in CA.  I joined this group while
> searching for a sangha of support; I'm travelling for the summer and
> feel cut off from my home community.
> 
> Well, I'll be around, reading more than anything... asking questions...

After wading in the shallow end, you may feel you’re plunging in the deep
end here (sometimes I do, anyway), but initially, just follow what is of
interest and seems applicable to you, if that helps.  Are you based in
California too? A few other members here are as well. Anyway, hope you
have a good summer of travel and dhamma reminders and look forward to any
of your questions or comments. Thanks again for posting this message and
for your interest in the vedana thread which I know Howard has helped
with. Hope you’ll join in on that one.

A few suggestions to any DSG newbies
=============================

1. Pali challenged? A very simple pali golssary can be found at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary
You’re also welcome to shout and ask for clarifications anytime -
sometimes we forget to add the English in brackets, esp. if it’s a word
that most people are used to here.

2. Want to find the start of a thread? Go to escribe (back-up for all
posts), click on the last message in the thread you are interested in: eg
‘vedana’, then click on where it says ‘view other messages in this thread’
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/

3. The escribe link is alo useful for finding messages by a particular
writer or for tracing a message or topic, using the search function.

4. Certain messages on particular themes such as ‘Pali’ or ‘Kamma’ or
‘Luminous Mind’ have been kept aside at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts
================================================

Please feel welcome to drop in on any threads or to start your own,and
never be concerned if it’s been discussed before or seems too simple.
You’ll be doing us all a favour.

If any of the links here don’t work, pls let me know (off-list perhaps)
and I’ll f/w them to Kom for attention!

Sarah
=====




 
14221 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 9:16pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Dan,

 --- onco111  wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> Thanks for the thoughtful comments. For the most part, I think you 
> are just restating what I wrote, albeit in different words.
.....
Mainly I think this is right, though I think there may be a few areas to
consider further. I think I misunderstood some of your comments before
too. This may have been partly because of having read the ‘jhana’ one
first, partly being somewhat confused by the ‘manufactured calm’, but
mainly because I couldn’t quite see why you raised these ‘imperfections of
insight’ from Vis XX. (Maybe also I’m still in shock that we’re in
agreement on so many essential aspects of the Teachings these days;-))
I’ve got both yr posts on this thread in front of me now, plus the Vism.

To get back to yr earlier post:

> In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed [XX 
> 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number of 
> phenomena such as illumination, rapture, tranquility, bliss, etc. 
.....
I’ve now looked at the section. These are very specific ‘imperfections’
only pertaining to ‘the beginner of insight’ or the one with tender
insight (as I understand). For example, the illumination is ‘illumination
due to insight’ and so on. I might as well mention here why I suggested
this ‘beginner’ stage is actually an advanced level of wisdom. Already at
this stage the conditioned nature of all namas and rupas is apparent
(past, present and future), all uncertainty in this regard is removed
(X1X,5f), kamma-vipaka, paticca samuppada are apparent with no doubt
remaining, ‘rise and fall in the two ways according to condition and
according to instant, the several truths, aspects of ..
> These phenomena may arise for one without insight in the course of 
> formal meditation by, say, directing the mind to a kasina or the 
> touch of the breath on the upper lip. However, these phenomena can 
> also arise "due to insight" in a "beginner of insight," according to 
> Vism. [107...] 
.....
I don’t understand that the very specific phenomena (i.e. the
‘imperfections’ you raise) arise without the insight specified. As you
discuss, anything can mimic anything and as we know from our old friends
the vancaka (cheating) dhammas, it’s always easy to be deceived by our
experiences, esp. as you go on to discuss, when we read the texts. (Larry:
pls note, if anything I’m questioning the reading of the texts here and am
not talking about meditation practices;-))
.....
>It may seem like a subtle distinction here -- whether 
> the calm is induced by directing the mind onto a particular object or 
> whether it is induced by insight -- but the distinction is clear. 
> With the purposive directing of the mind onto an object, there is a 
> repeated fixing of the attention on the object and the conscious 
> suppression of the hindrances.
.....
I’d rather just say that calm accompanies kusala cittas. The kusala cittas
are moments of dana, sila or bhavana. For the 2 kinds of bhavana (samatha
and vipassana) there must be understanding of the object. So I wouldn’t
use ‘induced by directing...’ and I’m not sure I’d use ‘induced by
insight’, but possibly. I’d have to think more about that one. 
.....
> With insight? 
> "When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, 
> methods [conditionality and kamma/vipaka], and characteristics 
> [anatta] have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to 
> him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being 
> previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease.' And they 
> are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like 
> dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv, 137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), 
> like a line drawn on water (A.iv, 137), like a mustard seed on an 
> awl's out core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage 
> (Dh.46), like the circle of a whirling firebrand, like a goblin city, 
> like froth (Dh. 46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), etc.
> 
> "At this point he has attained tender insight-knowledge...[and] is 
> known as a 'beginner of insight'."[Vism XX.104]
.....
This is a good quote that I think reinforces the degree of wisdom required
here. To give an analogy. For those who climb Mt Everest, base camp is the
‘beginner’ level at which point the serious and dangerous climbing begins.
On the otherhand, for most of us worldlings, even trekking up to base camp
would be a high level of accomplishment. Beginner or advanced level? Is
the glass half full or half empty? I don't think this is so much a
question of conceit as of realism to be 'truthful' to the level of
understanding now as Nina was referring to (sacca parami). (I'll leave
your dust-rag red herring for now, Dan, but bring it up another time- a
discussion in itself;-))
.....
> "And now when he is a beginner of insight with this tender insight, 
> ten imperfections of insight might arise in him. ...illumination due 
> to insight...knowledge due to insight...rapturous happiness due to 
> insight...tranquillity due to insight...bliss due to 
> insight...faith...well-exerted energy...well-founded 
> mindfulness...equanimity...attachment due to insight." [Vism XX 105-
> 122]. 
.....
So now we have clearly established we are only talking about a specific
level of insight and specific experiences at that level.

Back to the 2nd post:
===============
I fully agree and appreciate almost everything you wrote (much clearer for
me), so I’ll snip most of it for now. I also agree about the misleading
‘yardsticks’...many of us know just what you mean;-) Like I said to Sukin
about the meditation course, we can’t blame the teacher or the
Visuddhimagga or anything/one else....the characteristic of wrong view is
to assume what is wrong to be right. While it hasn’t been eradicated, it
will continue (as you point out so well) to mislead while following
special practices or as Larry points out, while studying abhidhamma or
other texts. (Larry, hope that’s passing your censor, more on this
tomorrow perhaps;-))
_________________________________________________________________ >In a
decade of formal practice, with annual 
> or semiannual intensive retreats fortified with daily practice on the 
> cushion, there may be hundreds or thousands of hours of manufactured 
> calm, peaceful-seeming times when even subtle sensations are noted 
> with ease, there may be scores of moments where there is a flash of 
> what seems to be insight when there is an apparent discontinuity in 
> the flow of consciousness, there may be dozens of times when these 
> moments come in rapid succession, and there may even be a handful of 
> moments of genuine insight where there is direct recognition of, say, 
> the distinction between between nama and rupa, or the way uppadana 
> paccaya's bhava. But a few moments of insight in a decade doesn't 
> qualify one as a 'beginner of insight', because there still needs to 
> be some consolidation of the insight, some development. But even the 
> softer, attenuated, trivial insights that are primarily conceptual 
> (complete with an 'Aha' flash) induce calm (kusala) -- just not at 
> the level where the 'imperfections' (or 'meditation phenomena') 
> arise, and not at the level of direct insight that Buddhagosa would 
> call 'beginning'. 
.....
OK, agreed. I’d probably go even further and question whether there really
can be any ‘moments of genuine insight’ if the distinction between
concepts and realities isn’t apparent (i.e if the object of panna isn’t
known). Yes, there will be calm accompanying conceptual rt understanding
(if it’s kusala), but this isn’t insight. If there is an ‘apparent
discontinuity of consciousness’, I’ve no idea what this is. Consciousness
never ‘discontinues’ as I understand.
.....
.> --> Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual 
> understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct understanding, especially 
> since we have so little (if any) direct understanding. Of course, 
> there may be clear understanding of the distinction between nama and 
> rupa at one moment, while confusion and doubt about it arise again 
> later -- moha is really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally 
> eradicated only with the supramundane path consciousness. 
.....
Finally eradicated yes, but gradually attenuated and removed at these
stages and different aspects of doubt about 1)n&r 2)kamma & conditions 3)
rise and fall of realities at these stages, to my understanding.
“When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly knows and sees the
sign. Hence ‘right seeing’ is said.  thus by inference from that all
formations are clearly seen as impermanent.  Herein doubt is
abandoned.....”X1X,26

Furthermore, I understand when the stages are realised, there can be no
doubt about it.
.....
> --> Dan: Yes, person or sotapanna are only concepts, and that's why I 
> don't think the 'with this tender insight' refers to the person in 
> the Vism. quote. I'm no Pali expert (now, there's an understatement 
> for you!), but it looks to me like the 'with this tender insight' is 
> in the instrumental case, with the sense of insight 'bringing about' 
> the phenomena known as 'vipassanupakkilesaa' (corruptions of insight) 
> rather than insight 'belonging to' the 'person' who is a beginner in 
> insight. ~Nm's translation is a bit ambiguous because it could be 
> taken either way. 
.....
To be honest Dan, I don’t see the big deal and I don’t see the distinction
or am I being dim?.  We talk about the Buddha’s wisdom or the sotapanna’s
eradication of defilements and so on. We know there is no Buddha, but
we’re talking conventionally. I understand it to be talking about the
particular defilements arising in those with tender insight and
conditioned by it. Just like the ‘seeing sees’ old thread, it depends how
it’s understood and of course can yet again be the object of wrong view.
.....
>Taking the 'tender insight' as something possessed 
> by the 'beginner' could be very misleading. For example, if one day 
> insight about nama and rupa arises, another day insight about anatta 
> arises, and another day insight about d.o. (or p.s.) arises -- "Aha! 
> Now I am a true beginner, so now when those meditation phenomena 
> arise in me, I'll know they are tender insight!" And then, "Aren't I 
> wise! Insight arises every morning and evening when I sit. All I need 
> to do to make insight arise is focus on the breath for a few minutes. 
> Then, illumination, etc. arise, signifying insight! Oh, I am well on 
> my way to enlightenment." 
.....
Like you said at the start, we’re really in almost full agreement and
perhaps I wanted to really clarify this before looking at the other jhana
thread in more detail with you. I also appreciate that you have plenty of
first-hand experience to back up your comments about the dangers of this
aspect of wrong view and misunderstanding of the stages of insight. I’ve
also seen and heard of several monks and laypeople (usually very
intelligent and serious students) having a very hard time indeed as a
result. A hard time as a result of attachment and wrong view, but
conditioned by what is read or heard too. I think you’re doing a great
service by pointing out these pitfalls  (I hope you write a book one day
;-)). Dan and for the record, I have much respect for the courage shown by
you in facing up to the truth. It must be harder still, perhaps for those
who are revered and highly regarded.
..... 
> Sarah: A few comments in brief:
> 1. Calm arises with every kusala citta. 
> 2. `Imperfections' or kilesa do not arise with kusala citta, but by 
> upanissaya paccaya, kusala may be a condition for akusala.
> 3. What is `manufactured' calm? If the citta is not kusala, even 
> though it may seem so calm (attachment can seem very calm), there 
> cannot be calm.
> 4. Whether we are talking about the development of samatha or 
> insight, understanding is the key. Without the precise knowledge of 
> kilesa, neither can develop.
> 5. The nature of lobha (whether on or off a retreat) is always to 
> cling and `distract'.
> 6. Even more deadly is ditthi (wrong view) as you suggest in the rest 
> of your snipped post.
> 
> 
> --> Dan: These points are all right on the money. There is a little 
> terminology left to clean up, though. By "calm", I presume you are 
> referring in particular to the 'six pairs' of sobhana cetasikas that 
> sound like various aspects of calm. 
.....
Primarily calm refers to passaddhi cetasika as you suggested earlier. Like
you suggest, though, all the 6 pairs accompany all all sobhana (beautiful)
cittas. Maybe more on this in the jhana thread later.
.....
>By "manufactured calm" I don't 
> necessarily mean these kusala cetasikas. I'm primarily referring to 
> the calm feelings that arise in the course of formal meditation, 
> which can be either kusala or akusala, depending on the attachment.
.....
..and ignorance. I was confused by the term when I last wrote....
..... 
> --> Dan: Thank-you for your insights, Sarah. I think you may have 
> misunderstood my comments, and I hope it didn't condition too much 
> dosa for you! For me? Sheesh. The dosas are few and far between. Much 
> more prominent is appreciation. Thanks again.
.....
There are bound to be misunderstandings here, I’m sure.  You set a good
example (along with Goggy;-)) in accepting, seeing good intentions and
movng on......

I have a few posts ear-marked for reply, but I hope to get back on the
other one soon.

Sarah
=======
 


 
14222 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 9:55pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices

 
  Rob Ep

 --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > 
My criteria would also be whether a practice brings one towards the path
that
eventually brings one to enlightenment.  Any benefits that do not lead
towards
enlightenment or that delay or lead away from enlightenment, would not be 
wished
for, as they would prolong or increase suffering.

The question is, whether these practices aid the progress towards
enlightenment 
or
not.  And I am not sure whether either of us can know that with certainty 
either
pro or con.  At best we have our educated, or less educated, guesses, and
mine 
is
that if a practice creates conditions that are in line with the dhamma
then it 
is
an aid towards the path of enlightenment, and if not, then not.  If one
was to
develop genuine peacefulness and discernment through yoga, then the yoga
would 
be
an aid towards enlightenment.  If those qualities were developed on the
surface
but were accompanied by akusala pride in self at accomplishing these
qualities 
or
if they were masking other akusala effects that were in the wrong
direction, 
then
they would be obstacles, not aids.  There is still going to be personal
interpretation involved.  If a Sutta mentions that many arahants were
sitting 
in
the cross-legged position while entering the jhanas; I am sure that you
will 
say
this is a coincidence and that it is a description not a prescription; and
that 
I
will say it is the path itself.  <g>  Where do we each get our separate
interpretations?   My guess is that it is because of our backgrounds and
tendencies:  yours in Abhidhamma; mine in yoga and vipassana meditation as
well 
as
mahayana studies.  So is either one of us right, or are we just 'being 
ourselves'
and following our own predilections in this lifetime?

Jon:
Yes, a person's understanding of a given passage from the suttas is a
reflection of their personal interoperation and understanding.  However,
the original intended meaning is not, and it is that that we need to try
to ascertain.  

You say, "If one was to develop genuine peacefulness and discernment
through yoga, then the yoga would be an aid towards enlightenment."

Within the teachings there are discussions of the factors that if
developed lead to more understanding, so it is possible to compare those
parts of the texts with a given practice and see what similarities if any
there are.

I would see as somewhat unreliable the approach of undertaking the
practice first and then 'checking' the perceived results against
descriptions found in the texts (if that's what you're refering to).  I
would imagine that using that approach any number of practices could be
'justified' as being an aid.  Don’t you think it's rather subjective?  Why
not first consider whether the practice in question talks about the same
things as are found in the teachings?

Jon



 
14223 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 10:00pm
Subject: Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc)

 
  Howard

--- Howard wrote: 
> Hi, Jon -
…
>        I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts
certainly
> do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from
the
> Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking 
> meditation in the open air."
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a
translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'.   According to the
dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down
(as given in both PED and CPED).  If cankamana is the original, then the
'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss.  This is
perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a
prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the
translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation').

I was interested to read the 5 benefits of cankamana as summarised by
Goggy in a recent post.  In Goggy's words (I have yet to find the
original) they are: 
1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 
2) strengthen the mental effort for overall practice 
3) balancing between sitting and walking 
4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 
5) builds durable concentration. 

There is no indication here that the walking necessarily involves
'meditation', or that it is regarded as being of any particular benefit as
far as the development of understanding is concerned.  (Actually, these
remind me somewhat of the benefits given somewhere for eating congee.)

The problem with using 'meditation' in translations is that it has no
precise meaning in English, but can be read as implying any number of
things.

Jon



 
14224 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 6:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc)

 
  Hi, Jon -

       I know a lot of folks who do considerable walking as exercise, but I 
never noticed that they particularly developed "durable concentration".
       Oh -  one more point: It seems that every ongoing lineage within both 
Theravada and Mahayana has a walking meditation practice of long standing 
(centuries), and these differ hardly at all from each other. Don't you find 
this to be a rather surprising coincidence? (The Chinese, BTW, do two kinds: 
Slow walking with attention to the smallest details of position, placement, 
and sensation, and normal-speed walking with attention to the body as a 
whole, whereas the Theravadins seem to concentrate on the former.)

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 7/8/02 10:02:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> 
> Howard
> 
> --- Howard wrote: 
> > Hi, Jon -
> …
> >        I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts
> certainly
> > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from
> the
> > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking 
> > meditation in the open air."
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> 
> As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a
> translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'.   According to the
> dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down
> (as given in both PED and CPED).  If cankamana is the original, then the
> 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss.  This is
> perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a
> prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the
> translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation').
> 
> I was interested to read the 5 benefits of cankamana as summarised by
> Goggy in a recent post.  In Goggy's words (I have yet to find the
> original) they are: 
> 1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 
> 2) strengthen the mental effort for overall practice 
> 3) balancing between sitting and walking 
> 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 
> 5) builds durable concentration. 
> 
> There is no indication here that the walking necessarily involves
> 'meditation', or that it is regarded as being of any particular benefit as
> far as the development of understanding is concerned.  (Actually, these
> remind me somewhat of the benefits given somewhere for eating congee.)
> 
> The problem with using 'meditation' in translations is that it has no
> precise meaning in English, but can be read as implying any number of
> things.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14225 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Yuganaddha Sutta - In Tandem, and com. notes.

 
  Dear Victor and Dan, I quote the sutta in the PTs translation from an old
post. With Co notes. Dan will be interested to see notes on calm and
insight.
Nina. 


We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours( II, Ch XVI, §10, Coupled)
that Anada said :
Reverend sirs, when anyone, be it monk or nun, proclaaims in my presence
that he has attained arahatship, all such do so by virtue of four factors or
by one of these four. What are they?
Herein, your reverences, a monk develops insight preceded by calm. In him
thus developing insight preceded by calm is born the Way. He follows along
that Way, makes it grow, makes much of it... the fetters are abandoned, the
lurking tendencies come to an end.
Or again, your reverences, a monk develops calm preceded by insight. In him
thus developing calm preceded by insight is born the Way... the lurking
tendencies come to an end.
Yet again, your reverences, a monk develops calm-and-insight coupled. In him
thus developing.. the Way is born... the lurking tendencies come to an end.
Once more, your reverences, a monk¹s mind is utterly cleared of perplexities
about dhamma. That is the time, your reverences, when his thought stands
fixed in the very self, settles down, becomes one-pointed, is composed. In
him the Way is born... the lurking tendencies come to an end.

The Co explains that the Way is the first stage of enlightenment. As to the
second factor, the monk is already used to developing insight and then
samadhi arises. As to the third factor, he is aware and considers the
sankharas, jhanafactors, in between the different stages of jhana he enters
and emerges from. As to the fourth factor, he has abandoned the ten
defilements of vipassana. He does not cling to samatha nor to vipassana.

It is interesting that there is no special order, a person¹s way of
development depends on his accumulations.
I discussed calm and insight with A. Supee in India. He reminded me that
whenever we read about calm, it is implied that it goes together with
insight. For some people the factor calm is stronger, for others less
strong. And as Kom explained, when insight is developed there are conditions
for more calm, in a natural way. The sotapanna has more calm than the
ordinary person, because he has less defilements. The sotapanna who has
developed insight has such strong, unshakable confidence in the Triple gem,
and when there are conditions he can have great calm while contemplating the
Buddha¹s virtues. Only ariyans could attain access concentration with this
meditation subject. The person who has attained the third stage of
enlightenment, the anagami, is no longer attached to sense objects, thus,
naturally, he has a great deal of calm.
When we read about the ideal Recluse, he goes forth with the aim to attain
arahatship, and becomes endowed with the highest qualities. Taken into
account that we are further away from the Buddha¹s time, we can draw our
conclusions to what extent all such high qualities are still possible. Then,
when we read about jhanas, we will understand all these passages in their
right perspective. No more doubts whether all of us should develop jhana.
  



op 07-07-2002 16:24 schreef yuzhonghao op Victor:

> Anguttara Nikaya IV.170
> Yuganaddha Sutta
> In Tandem
> Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
> For free distribution only.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's
> monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!"
> "Yes, friend," the monks responded.
> 
> Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the
> attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of
> one or another of four paths. Which four?
> 
> "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by
> tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the
> path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he
> follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are
> abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
> 
> "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity
> preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight,
> the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As
> he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are
> abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
> 
> "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in
> tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with
> insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues
> it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his
> fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.
> 
> "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness
> concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under
> control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly,
> settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is
> born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows
> the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned,
> his obsessions destroyed.
> 
> "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in
> my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four
> paths."

 
14226 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no 6

 
  Perfections Ch 2, no 6.
The Commentary to "the Basket of Conduct" continues:

The giving of the Dhamma, Dhamma dåna, is an unperverted discourse on the
Dhamma given with an undefiled mind; that is, methodical instruction
conducive to good in the present life, in the life to come, and to ultimate
deliverance (ditthidhammika samparåyikaparamattha). By means of such
discourses, those who have not entered the Buddha¹s Dispensation enter it,
while those who have entered it reach maturity therein. This is the method:-
In brief, he speaks on giving, on virtue, and on heaven, on the
unsatisfactoriness and defilement in sense pleasures, and on the benefit in
renouncing them.

People may have understanding of dåna, of the danger in sense pleasures and
the benefit of renouncing them, but when one is unaware and does not listen
to the Dhamma, one is bound to be overcome by defilements. When we often
listen to the Dhamma, even though we hear what was said before, or when we
listen to what has been said about daily life, we are reminded to reflect
and be aware of realities, and, thus, there are conditions to accumulate
more kusala.
We read further on in the Commentary:

In detail, to those whose minds are disposed towards the enlightenment of
disciples (såvakabodhiyam adhimuttacittånam), he gives a discourse
establishing and purifying them (in progress towards their goal) by
elaborating upon the noble qualities of whichever among the following topics
is appropriate: going for refuge, restraint by virtue, guarding the doors of
the sense-faculties, moderation in eating, application to wakefulness...

One should know the degree of one¹s understanding. As we read, the Buddha
gave a discourse in detail to those whose minds were disposed towards the
enlightenment of disciples, he gave a discourse establishing and purifying
them (in progress towards their goal) by elaborating upon the noble
qualities as was appropriate to them.
Those who want to develop satipaììhåna, to develop right understanding of
the characteristics of the dhammas that are appearing, and to develop the
perfections in daily life, are already disposed towards the enlightenment of
disciples, and that means that they go for refuge to the Triple Gem, that
they observe síla, guard the doors of the sense-faculties, are moderate in
eating and apply themselves to wakefulness, to energy, time and again.
We should develop the perfections together with satipaììhåna, life after
life. The Bodhisatta had developed the perfections for aeons to an
incomparably high degree. He accumulated the perfection of generosity
together with paññå and all other wholesome qualities which formed together
the conditions (as the khandha of formations, sankhårakkhandha 3) for the
realization of the four noble Truths when he attained Buddha hood.  The
accumulation of the perfection of dåna and the other perfections have lead
to this result.

Footnote:
3. Conditioned phenomena can be classified as five khandhas, aggregates: the
khandha of physical phenomena, rúpakkhandha, the khandha of feeling,
vedanåkkhandha, the khandha of perception, saññåkkhandha, the khandha of
formations or activities, sankhårakkhandha, the khandha of consciousness,
viññånakkhandha.The khandha of formations or activities, saòkhårakkhandha,
includes all cetasikas other than feeling, vedanå, and remembrance or
perception, saññå. It includes all akusala cetasikas and sobhana cetasikas.
Generosity and also the other sobhana cetasikas such as paññå and sati, are
accumulated together and condition one another so that finally enlightenment
can be attained.

 
14227 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 7:15am
Subject: ADL ch. 15 (1)

 
  http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm

Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 15 (1)

THE FUNCTIONS OF TADARAMMANA AND CUTI 

An object which impinges on one of the senses can be visible object,
sound, smell, taste or an impression through the body-sense. Each one of
these objects is rupa. They arise and fall away, but they do not fall
away as rapidly as nama. Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of
citta. When rupa impinges on one of the senses, the
panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) does
not arise immediately. First there have to be bhavanga-cittas and they
are: the atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga), the bhavanga-calana (vibrating
bhavanga) and the bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga or last
bhavanga-citta before the stream of 
bhavanga-cittas is arrested). These bhavanga-cittas do not experience
the rupa which has contacted one of the senses. The
panca-dvaravajjana-citta, which is a kiriyacitta, adverts to the object
which has impinged on one of the senses. It is succeeded by the
dvi-panca-vinnana (seeing-consciousness, hearing-consciousness, etc. )
which is vipaka, the result of a good deed or an ill deed. There is,
however, not only one moment of vipaka in a process, but several
moments. The dvi-panca-vinnana is succeeded by sampaticchana-citta
(receiving-consciousness) which is vipaka and this citta is succeeded by
santirana-citta (investigating- consciousness) which is also vipaka. The
santirana-citta is succeeded by the votthapana-citta (determining-
consciousness) which is kiriyacitta. This citta is succeeded by seven
javana-cittas which are, in the case of non-arahats, akusala cittas or
kusala cittas. All cittas, starting with the panca-dvaravajjana-citta,
experience the object which has impinged on one of the senses. 

As we have seen, rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. If
the rupa which has impinged on one of the senses arose at the same time
as the atita-bhavanga, then that rupa will not have fallen away yet when
the seventh javana-citta has fallen away; only fifteen moments of citta
have passed since the atita-bhavanga arose. Thus there could be two more
cittas in that process which directly experience the object. After the
javana- cittas two vipaka-cittas may arise which experience the object
and these are the tadarammana-cittas (or tadalambana-cittas) They
perform the function of tadalambana or tadarammana, which is sometimes
translated as 'registering' or 'retention'. Tadarammana literally means
'that object'; the citta 'hangs on' to that object. When the
tadarammana-cittas have fallen away the sense-door process has run its
full cruise. If the rupa which impinges on one of the senses has arisen
before the atita-bhavanga, the process cannot run its full course,
because the rupa falls away before the tadarammana-cittas can arise. 

Only in the sense-door process kamma can, after the javana-cittas,
produce the tadarammana-cittas which 'hang on' to the object. For those
who are born in rupa-brahma planes where there are less conditions for
sense-impressions, and for those who are born in arupa-brahma planes
where there are no sense- impressions, there are no tadarammana-cittas.
[Birth in a rupo-brahma plane is the result of rupa vacarakusala citta
(rupa-jhanacitta) and birth in an arupa-brahma plane is the result of
arupavacara kusala citta (arupa- hanacitta).] 

Summarizing the cittas which succeed one another when rupa impinges on
one of the senses and becomes the object of cittas of a sense-door
process: 

1. Atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) 
2. Bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) 
3. Bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga) 
4. Panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting) 
consciousness) 
5. Dvi-panca-vinnana (seeing-consciousness, etc.) 
6. Sampaticchana-citta (receiving-consciousness) 
7. Santirana-citta (investigating-consciousness) 
8. Votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness) 
9. Javana-citta} kusala cittas or akusala cittas (in the case of non -
arahats), 'running through' the object 
10. Javana-citta
11. Javana-citta
12. Javana-citta
13. Javana-citta
14. Javana-citta 
15. Javana-citta 
16. Tadarammana-citta (registering-consciousness) 
17. Tadarammana-citta (registering-consciousness)

 
14228 From: frank kuan   
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 8:44am
Subject: ahimsa and coexisting with critters

 
  Hi Chris,
  I can relate to sharing living space with uninvited
guests. Geckos walk up the ceiling and the walls,
cockroaches freeze in their tracks and twitch
nervously when I look at them, mosquitos here are
different than the mainland. They're smaller, and make
a barely audible buzzing sound so you don't usually
notice them until after you're bitten. Ants are half
the size as mainland ones and twice as fast.
Centipedes have pretty toxic stings, they like to
crawl into people's beds at night because it's warm
and then if the unconscious humans bother them they
get stung. Wasps are pretty common, and they started
building a nest a month ago right on the stairway
which is the only path I can take to get to my door. 

> ....Precepts are not to be kept only when
> convenient...... 

  At the same time, the ideal of ahimsa is impossible
to achieve, we are constantly having to kill to
survive and make the choice/compromise. Your body's
immune system cells are constantly killing pathogens -
bacteria, viruses, 2nd hand incense smoke created by
Buddhists in your lungs. Do we extend metta and no
killing precept to microscopic pathogens? 
  I admire how theravada monks try to make every
effort to not kill mosquitos, but I find it odd how
they aren't allowed to drop any hints to the laypeople
donors that vegetarian food offerings would minimize
killing. That's just another example of imperfect
compromises and shows the impossibility of carrying
out ahimsa all the way. 
  Here's how I dealt with some of my guests:

1) Geckos - they're cute, and they don't do anything
that bothers me other than leave droppings here and
there. I don't mind them.
2) Cockroaches - they're ugly, and they startle me
sometimes but they leave me alone, I leave them alone.
3) Ants - You wouldn't believe the lengths I go to in
order not to kill them. Again, I empathize with the
dukkha of their struggle just to get food and survive,
so as long as they don't attack me, I leave them
alone. Sometimes they must experience some hard times,
because they even go after Frank food, which is the
blandest, no salt, no sauce, no sugar, simple
nutritious goo that I eat for the continuance of my
body. Even monks would find the food I eat hard to
take. Just the other night, I started eating some
leftover from lunch when I noticed it was overrun with
ants. I thought what a shame to throw away such a
large pot of nutritious leftover Frank food, so I
figured those ants would probably realize there was
nothing interesting to them after awhile and leave.
Sure enough, after a few hours, they had abandoned my
food, and I happily ate it. 
4) mosquitos, fleas, ticks, carrier of deadly
parasites and virus that like to bite you - I vow not
to kill any living beings, except female mosquitos
(male ones don't go after you). Why? You can't
compromise. Even if you offer them one free drink,
they relentlessly attack you again and again until
they die. I try to kill them with a minimum of anger
and joy. That's my compromise. 
5) wasps: So like I was saying, this nest of wasps was
starting to expand, and it's on my stairway, which
means I had to walk about 1 foot next to it several
times a day. As the nest got bigger, more wasps hung
out. I figured the power of my metta was mighty
indeed. They didn't bother me, until last week one
misguided wasp stung me. I actually spent about a week
wearing body armor every time I walked past them,
contemplated setting up a ladder to bypass them, etc.
I researched all my options, but concluded that there
was no way to negotiate, and if I didn't kill them,
they would eventually sting me again or the next
tenant who moved in after me. So I had them
exterminated, and felt really bad about it. They were
just trying to survive and protect the queen. 
6) Terrorists on commercial airlines - under certain
circumstances, if no other skillful option seemed
viable, I would kill them directly by my own hands and
not feel one iota of regret. 

> ....Precepts are not to be kept only when
> convenient...... 
I still don't believe in the death penalty, but I do
believe in making the most skillful choice under
duress even if it means violating the killing precept.
At the same time, I realize the limitations of my own
wisdom. I very well may see things differently when I
evolve. 

-fk



 
14229 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 8:59am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 14 (4)

 
  Group Hi, one aspect of Maha-Tissa's enlightenment is that it turns on
the perception of the undesirable. I think by far the most common reason
the Buddha uses to establish not-self is that a self cannot be something
undesirable. What is impermanent is not self because what is impermanent
is undesirable. There are other reasons, no control and elusiveness, but
I think even they are understood to devolve into undesirableness. The
mahayana treats elusiveness as a neutral phenomenon, neither desirable
nor undesirable, and there is no particular problem with this. 

What I see as a problem, however, is that a psychological sense of self
(as opposed to a metaphysical one for example) has no difficulty
accomodating a negative self image. So just because something is
undesirable does not disqualify it from being 'me.'

In thinking about this problem, it occurred to me that there are
actually two different kinds of subjectivity that make up a
psychological self. One is a cognitive subjectivity which consists of a
citta and its cetasikas; the other is, it seems to me, conceit (mana). 

In satipatthana all objects are not self simply because they are object
and therefore not subject. And, the subject that observes conceit cannot
have conceit as one of its cetasikas because it is sati. Of course, the
same can be said about the various roots, but I think the heart of this
sense of 'I' and 'me' is conceit. 

So the point of this email is to recommend that you look for and
recognize conceit as often as possible. Simply doing that is to
recognize that it is not self because it is an object.

best wishes, Larry

 
14230 From: Sarah   
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 5:05pm
Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation

 
  Hi Howard,

 S:>> The pain is mostly vedana, dukkha.
> -----------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I tend to disagree on this, though I'm far from certain. I think
> that 
> pains come in a wide variety, in terms of both degree and kind. I think
> that 
> they are rupas. 
.....
As I read in the texts, the only rupas experienced through the bodysense
are solidity, temperature and pressure as discussed. This is just as you
suggested in this example:
.....
> .... for example, a feeling of tremendous crushing pressure and
> heaviness in 
> the chest (from a heart attack) would be the rupa, and the pain could be
> the 
> associated vedana. 
.....
Under “Pain’ in the Sammohavinondani, Commentary to Vibhanga, we read this
colourful description of bodily painful feeling (dukkha vedana) and mental
unpleasant feeling (domanassa vedana):
.....
“For in one who is afflicted with the pain due to cutting off the hands
and feet and of the ears and nose and is lying in the refuge for the
helpless with an unclean pot in front of him,  there arises great bodily
pain when maggots come out from the openings of his wounds.  And, on
seeing crowds enjoying a festival and wearing cloth dyed in many colours
and beautiful ornaments, great mental pain arises in him.  Thus firstly
should bodily pain be understood as the basis for the two kinds of pain.

Furthermore:

“This pain of body that afflicts
produces further pain of mind as well,
And that accordingly is why
this specially is known as suffering”.

Those who are seized with mental pain, however, tear their hair and thump
their breasts and twist and writhe, they throw themselves over cliffs, use
the knife, swallow poison, hang themselves with ropes, enter into fires; 
remorseful and with burning mind, they thinbk on this or that misfortune. 
Thus should mental pain be understood as the basis for both kinds of
pain.” <end quote>
*****
No need for my comments. Hopefully, i’ve got everyone’s attention now;-))

Later in the same text, there is a ‘Classification of the Foundations of
Mindfulness (satipatthanavibhanga). Under ‘Contemplation of Feeling’
(p.324 PTS trans), it clarifies that awareness of pleasant (or painful)
feeling is not the same as the conventional awareness of such that we all
know:
.....
“but as regards sukham vedaa.m vediyamaano (feeling a pleasant feeling),
etc, sukha.m vedana.m (a pleasant feeling) <means that> feeling a pleasant
bodily or mental feeling, he understands: “I understand a pleasant
feeling.’  Herein, although certainly children lying on their backs,
drinking their mother’s milk and so on know: ‘We feel pleasure,’
nevertheless this is not said with reference to such knowing.  For such
knowing does not abandon the belief in a being, or abolish the perception
of a being, and it is neither a meditation subject nor the development of
a foundation of mindfulness.......”

It continues to stress that feelings are to be understood as anatta (not
self):

“..Feeling may come to be because of the object which is its basis
(vatthu).  Therefore he knows acordingly that “feeling feels by making
this or that basis for pleasure and so on its object, but <the words> ‘I
feel’ are merely a conventional expression....” <end quote>
*****
It may not be apparent where or what rupas exactly are involved, even for
those with very highly developed wisdom. It’s not necessary to pinpoint
and attempts to try are likely to be with lobha or selection again. Just
after this passage, there is the interesting account of an Elder who was
sick. He was ‘groaning and rolling from side to side through the violence
of his feeling.  A young bhikkhu said to him:
‘What place is hurting, venerable sir?’
‘Friend, there is no particular place that hurts.  It is just feeling that
feels by making the basis its object.’<snip a little>
The Elder endured.  The wind (-y humour) burst up to his heart.  His
entrails lay in a heap on the bed.  the Elder showed <this> to the young
bhikkhu.”

The Elder makes some comments about endurance and then ‘yoking together
energy and tranquillity, reached Arahatship together with the
discriminations and as “Equal-Headed One” (samasiisin) he attained
complete extinction  <simultaneously with death>.” <end quotes from
Sammohavinodan>
*****
>However, this just doesn't quite match my experience
> of 
> pain. I can easily distinguish between crushing pressure and heaviness,
> on 
> the one hand, and actual physical pain (which *hurts*), with *both* of
> these 
> being completely physical, completely rupic (though, of course,
> discerned by 
> vi~n~nana) and "tasted" with the vedana of unpleasantness.
.....
Well, Howard, I hope you never have to endure the dukkha in these graphic
accounts  quoted to prove the point;-)

I know you’re also patiently reading these accounts and saying to yourself
“hmm, more abhidhamma and commentaries.....where do we read this in the
suttas?”.

As I have the Mahahattipadopama Sutta (Elephant’s Footprint), MN28 already
marked with a yellow sticker with your name on, let’s look there too;-):

Let me just give a short quote to show that even in the suttas, pain is
vedana:
.....
“So then, if others abuse, revile, scold, and harass a bhikkhu (who has
seen this element <i.e earth element> as it actually is), he understands
thus: “This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me.  That is
dependent, not independent.....”
.....
You have mentioned in one or two other posts, I think, that you find it
difficult to accept objects are inherently pleasant or unpleasant. I
certainly agree that most the finding pleasant and unpleasant has little
to do with the initial experience of rupas, but far more to do with the
accumulated liking and disliking of what is expereinced.

In a Commentary quote to this sutta (the simile of the saw segment), we
read in B.Bodhi’s translation about equanimity to ‘agreeable and
disagreeable objects’:
.....
“Equanimity supported by the wholesome” (upekkhaa kusalanissitaa) is the
equanimity of insight, the sixfold equanimity of neither attraction nor
aversion towards agreeable and disagreeable objects that appear at the six
sense doors...”
<end quote>
*****
<snip>
.>................ In 
> this view, the conditioning sensations are rupa, and it is only the
> resulting 
> affective "taste" that is vedana.
>        I suspect that it is this "traditional view" what the Buddha
> actually 
> presented. The two views are *close* to interchangeable, possibly
> because it 
> is so hard for us to sort out and separate bodily sensation from the 
> associated affective taste.
.....
I agree that it is quite complex and ‘hard to sort out’. Even when we
refer to ‘itches and tingles”, like with the ‘rose’, thinking and concepts
follow the experiencing of rupas so rapidly. Only direct sati and panna
will directly know what is experienced (i.e the rupa) and what is the
vedana without any confusion or need to ‘work out’. It’s important, I
think, to understand that vedana and rupas are quite distinct and that the
bodily feelings are quite different from the mental feelings. This
knowledge (even if largely intellectual) can be a condition for direct
understanding of these phenomena.Like in the quote about the elder above,
it’ll depend on accumulations what will be the object of sati at any given
time.

Howard, I appreciate your sincere and practical interest. I’ve enjoyed the
excuse to type out the references (though I look f/w to having a scanner
one day;-)) and thank your for helping me to reflect further as always.

Sarah
=====



 
14231 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 5:46pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Victor

Since you came in on my thread, I trust you won't mind me coming on on
yours :-))

 --- yuzhonghao <Victor> wrote: > Hi Dan,
> 
> My suggestion is:
> 
> Sit in a secluded place.  Cross the legs.  Close the eyes.  Keep the 
> back erect.  Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities.  
> Focus the mind on in and out breathing.  After sitting, you might 
> want to check your experience against the definition/description of 
> right concentration in the Pali Canon.  If you have a teacher, talk 
> to him to get feedback too. 
> Regards,
> Victor

I have been following this thread with interest.  I have a couple of
questions to throw in for discussion.

1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and how
is that accomplished?

2. What is the difference in the mental state between--
a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and
b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and whose
mind is focussed on in and out breathing?

Jon 
 
> ---  "onco111"  wrote:
> > Dear Victor,
> > Most critical is to know the difference between "Right 
> concentration" 
> > and wrong concentration. But right concentration does not develop 
> all 
> > by itself, it must be accompanied by right view; otherwise, there 
> is 
> > no understanding of the difference between concentration and right 
> > concentration and no development of right concentration. 
> > 
> > What is your suggestion for developing right concentration?
> > 
> > Dan
> > 
> > 
> > > Hi Dan and Sarah,
> > > 
> > > Questions for you:
> > > 
> > > How would you develop right concentration? 
> > > What is your suggestion on developing right concentration?
> > > 
> > > Thank you.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Victor



 
14232 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 6:04pm
Subject: Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters

 
  Hi Frank,

First - just in case we ever meet, allow me to assure you, I am not a 
terrorist. :)  
I seem to have an unwritten agreement with the gecko - I think 
Brisbane is about the extreme southern fringe of their habitable 
area.  He/she comes in for an hour or two at night, eats any insects, 
and squeezes back out under the door, and lives on the back verandah -
 so cockroaches are one 'critter' I don't currently have. 
At the risk of stating the obvious - regarding mosquitos - I have 
insect screens on the windows, and use insect repellent when outside 
in an area likely to have lots of them.  If one gets inside, I catch 
them in a clear floppy disk box and release them outside. Similarly 
with flies in summer. Cane toads I catch in a plastic shopping bag, 
and take up to the SDA church which has the  street light, and 
release them. Only one 'round up' each summer.
Ants - they only come in for a day or two when there has been lots of 
rain and the ground is saturated, and it is difficult to find food.   
Though 'fire ants' (who stowed away on a ship from the USA a couple 
of years ago) are spreading in South East Queensland, despite  
efforts by the Government to eradicate them.  Apparently they can be 
a danger to native and domestic animal life, and perhaps human 
babies.  
All the creepy crawlies seem to go into a different part of their 
life cycle in winter, and leave the field mouse and the lady rat 
scavenging for human leftovers.  (I've got a friend in the 
Environmental movement looking for non-harming cage traps for the 
rat.) 

I think the Precept against harming refers to Sentient Beings (happy 
to be corrected on this).  A Sentient Being is able "to experience 
and to suffer, and has the related ability, in this or a future life, 
to transcend suffering by 
attaining enlightenment"  (This would require a brain/nervous system?)
 "One's present fortunate position as a human is only a temporary 
state of affairs, dependent on past good kamma.  One cannot isolate 
oneself from the plight of animals, as one has oneself experienced 
it, just as animals have had past rebirths as humans.  Moreover, in 
the ancient round of rebirths, every being one comes across, down to 
an insect, will at some time have been a close relative or friend, 
and have been very good to one.  Bearing this in mind, one should 
return the kindness in the present"  - [ 'An Introduction to Buddhist 
Ethics' Peter Harvey p.151]
Great to hear conscientous attempts at ahimsa, Frank.

metta,
Chris


---  frank kuan  wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>   I can relate to sharing living space with uninvited
> guests. Geckos walk up the ceiling and the walls,
> cockroaches freeze in their tracks and twitch
> nervously when I look at them, mosquitos here are
> different than the mainland. They're smaller, and make
> a barely audible buzzing sound so you don't usually
> notice them until after you're bitten. Ants are half
> the size as mainland ones and twice as fast.
> Centipedes have pretty toxic stings, they like to
> crawl into people's beds at night because it's warm
> and then if the unconscious humans bother them they
> get stung. Wasps are pretty common, and they started
> building a nest a month ago right on the stairway
> which is the only path I can take to get to my door. 
> 
> > ....Precepts are not to be kept only when
> > convenient...... 
> 
>   At the same time, the ideal of ahimsa is impossible
> to achieve, we are constantly having to kill to
> survive and make the choice/compromise. Your body's
> immune system cells are constantly killing pathogens -
> bacteria, viruses, 2nd hand incense smoke created by
> Buddhists in your lungs. Do we extend metta and no
> killing precept to microscopic pathogens? 
>   I admire how theravada monks try to make every
> effort to not kill mosquitos, but I find it odd how
> they aren't allowed to drop any hints to the laypeople
> donors that vegetarian food offerings would minimize
> killing. That's just another example of imperfect
> compromises and shows the impossibility of carrying
> out ahimsa all the way. 
>   Here's how I dealt with some of my guests:
> 
> 1) Geckos - they're cute, and they don't do anything
> that bothers me other than leave droppings here and
> there. I don't mind them.
> 2) Cockroaches - they're ugly, and they startle me
> sometimes but they leave me alone, I leave them alone.
> 3) Ants - You wouldn't believe the lengths I go to in
> order not to kill them. Again, I empathize with the
> dukkha of their struggle just to get food and survive,
> so as long as they don't attack me, I leave them
> alone. Sometimes they must experience some hard times,
> because they even go after Frank food, which is the
> blandest, no salt, no sauce, no sugar, simple
> nutritious goo that I eat for the continuance of my
> body. Even monks would find the food I eat hard to
> take. Just the other night, I started eating some
> leftover from lunch when I noticed it was overrun with
> ants. I thought what a shame to throw away such a
> large pot of nutritious leftover Frank food, so I
> figured those ants would probably realize there was
> nothing interesting to them after awhile and leave.
> Sure enough, after a few hours, they had abandoned my
> food, and I happily ate it. 
> 4) mosquitos, fleas, ticks, carrier of deadly
> parasites and virus that like to bite you - I vow not
> to kill any living beings, except female mosquitos
> (male ones don't go after you). Why? You can't
> compromise. Even if you offer them one free drink,
> they relentlessly attack you again and again until
> they die. I try to kill them with a minimum of anger
> and joy. That's my compromise. 
> 5) wasps: So like I was saying, this nest of wasps was
> starting to expand, and it's on my stairway, which
> means I had to walk about 1 foot next to it several
> times a day. As the nest got bigger, more wasps hung
> out. I figured the power of my metta was mighty
> indeed. They didn't bother me, until last week one
> misguided wasp stung me. I actually spent about a week
> wearing body armor every time I walked past them,
> contemplated setting up a ladder to bypass them, etc.
> I researched all my options, but concluded that there
> was no way to negotiate, and if I didn't kill them,
> they would eventually sting me again or the next
> tenant who moved in after me. So I had them
> exterminated, and felt really bad about it. They were
> just trying to survive and protect the queen. 
> 6) Terrorists on commercial airlines - under certain
> circumstances, if no other skillful option seemed
> viable, I would kill them directly by my own hands and
> not feel one iota of regret. 
> 
> > ....Precepts are not to be kept only when
> > convenient...... 
> I still don't believe in the death penalty, but I do
> believe in making the most skillful choice under
> duress even if it means violating the killing precept.
> At the same time, I realize the limitations of my own
> wisdom. I very well may see things differently when I
> evolve. 
> 
> -fk
> 
> 

 
14233 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 2:08pm
Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation

 
  Hi, Sarah -

       Thank you for the helpful and detailed reply. I will respond here just 
to one little piece. In a message dated 7/9/02 5:05:48 AM Eastern Daylight 
Time, <> writes:

> As I read in the texts, the only rupas experienced through the bodysense
> are solidity, temperature and pressure as discussed. This is just as you
> suggested in this example:
> .....
> > .... for example, a feeling of tremendous crushing pressure and
> > heaviness in 
> > the chest (from a heart attack) would be the rupa, and the pain could be
> > the 
> > associated vedana. 
> 
==============================
       Okay, this gets precise: solidity, temperature, and pressure - that is 
bodily rupa. This then presumably leaves physical pain as vedana (normally, 
but not always, felt as unpleasant). But where does this leave such things as 
itches, tinglings, vibrations, feelings of "numbness", queasy 
pit-of-the-stomach feelings/"butterflies in the stomach", the odd feelings on 
knees/shoulders associated with fear, hunger pangs, physical thirst, etc, 
etc. The question is whether these are varieties, perhaps in combination, of 
solidity, temperature, and pressure, and whether even pains, themselves, are 
varieties of these? That seems quite doubtful. It seems more likely that 
these are a different category things, namely automatic responses to 
variously sensed rupas (through various ayatana) rather than varieties of 
bodily rupas themselves. That is, these are vedana.
       If none of these things are (combinations of) varieties of solidity, 
temperature, and pressure, but, rather, are automatic bodily/mental responses 
to phassa (in biological terms, perhaps a kind of thrashing about of the 
nervous system), then they are all vedana, not rupa, and the Goenka 
interpretation is correct, with pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutrality 
being (conditioned) *characteristics* of vedana, but not the vedana 
themselves. [So, for example, contact with certain rupas produces the vedana 
of tingling on ones cheek, a tingling that is, say, neutral in feel. There 
would then be three things involved, the original contact, the resulting 
vedana of tingling, and, not really separate from the tingling, its 
characteristic of "neutral feel".]  
       At this point, I still see two alternative views, with the case not 
having been fully made for either. 
       One last point: As far as one's "salvation" is concerned, to use a 
very non-Buddhist term, this whole issue is not of great importance. (It is 
only of interest in having a clear understanding of terminology.) What *is* 
important is in realizing that all these experienced phenomena, whatever we 
call them, are impermanent, insubstantial, conditioned, and impersonal - 
neither me nor mine. And directly seeing them through vipassana bhavana as 
they arise and cease enables the direct understanding of their true nature, 
the wisdom that frees us from clinging to them.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         

 
14234 From: Sarah   
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 6:21pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana

 
  Hi Larry,

Others have given helpful comments on the ‘not practicing meditation’
theme.

To reiterate, my interest is in understanding what the Buddha taught in
this respect. Words like ‘jhayati’, ‘vipassana’, ‘bhavana’ and so on, need
to be considered carefully in context and I believe we need to consider
and reflect on many parts of the Tipitaka for this. Actually, in the post
heading (i.e ‘jhana’) you used, I thought I was (at least my intention
was) to ‘challenge’ Dan on the way one reads the texts and interprets
experiences(in this case Vism), rather than anything else.

On this note, I agree with you about the ‘imperfections in our own study
of abhidhamma’. Unless the study helps develop more understanding of
present realities, I think it’s quite useless. We have to know our
‘limits’ in this regard, rather than collect details ‘in case they come in
useful on a rainy day’. 

I like the way you consider carefully and practically. Having said that, I
find DSG is a condition for me to study many details which I might not
otherwise have any ‘need’ or interest in. For example, details of jhanas
or nibbana  have never been of much interest to me at all, but I can see
that for some people, because of their particular practice or
understanding, it’s essential to know more details, even if only to clear
out erroneous views.

This is what I wrote in my first message to Dan in this regard:

“We may think we have some understanding of dep.origination, kamma/vipaka,
the rising and falling of realities and so on, but we have to really
consider whether this is direct understanding of the these characteristics
of realities or whether it is conceptual understanding at this moment. As
I’m discussing with Larry, it can be hard enough to even conceptually
appreciate what vipaka or d.o, really means. If there isn’t the clear
understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa in practice without
any doubt, then it’s impossible to really understand these more refined
levels of wisdom.”

Many suttas such as “Living by the Dhamma” (AN, V,73) which Howard
recently pointed out, discuss just this danger of ‘mastering’ dhamma in
theory only:

“ “Here, monk, a monk masters the dhamma - the discourses, mixed prose,
expositions verses, inspired utterances, brief sayings, birth stories,
marvellous accounts, and miscellanies. He passes the day engaged in that
mastery of the Dhamma, he neglects seclusion, he neither applies himself
to internal tranaquillity of mind nor further understands its meaning with
wisdom. <S:refers here to samatha and vipassana development>  This is
called a monk who is engrossed in mastery over learning, not one who lives
by the Dhamma.””
*****
We read other suttas and commentaries (such as the commentary to the
Mulapariyaya Sutta) where the monks were so conceited with their so-called
knowledge, that they were unable to appreciate the essence of the
Teachings. So your reminders are well-taken, Larry. 

In Nina’s “Perfections” under ‘the Perfection of Truthfulness’(sacca
parami), she gives many examples of how we think about being in ‘another
situation’ without realizing each one ‘is conditioned already’. This
applies  to times when we have the idea that the quiet place or cushion
would be better, or the study of the dhamma book or even dhamma
discussions as Nina suggests below:

http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm

“....It may happen that we start to develop right understanding and then,
after ten or more years, when we still do not see much result, we become
impatient. We may wonder whether being in another situation would help us
to have more sati. We do not realize that each situation is conditioned
al-ready. Any object, also kusala citta, can become object of clinging. We
may not even notice that we prefer other situa-tions, other objects to the
present one. Even subtle clinging to kusala can be dangerous, because it
makes it most difficult for us to develop understanding in daily life. 
.......
“During my last afternoon in Delhi we had a Dhamma discussion in the lobby
of the hotel. I was clinging to particular situa-tions which, I thought,
were favorable for sati, and Khun Sujin tried to bring me back to the
present moment by her way of an-swering my questions. I thought that when
there would not be an occasion for Dhamma discussions I would be missing
out opportu-nities to learn...”<end quote>
***** 
Sacca (truth) is not just a question of following a precept, but being
'sincere' in one's practice and development of understanding, to really
know realities. 

So Larry, as Rob K pointed out, whether you’re studying abhidhamma,
sitting on the cushion or vegetating in front of the TV, there are still
only namas and rupas appearing...

Hope this helps clarify a little and ‘rights’any imbalance;-).

Sarah
====


 


 
14235 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 10:12pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc)

 
  Howard

--- Howard wrote: 
> Hi, Jon -
> 
>        I know a lot of folks who do considerable walking as exercise,
but I
> never noticed that they particularly developed "durable concentration".

Quite so (myself included! - we walkers are a very *unconcentrated* lot,
actually).  Here, though, we are not talking about any ordinary kind of
walking, but what Bh. Bodhi refers to as 'walking back and forth'.  This
means, as I understand it, walking along a walkway of some sort prepared
for the purpose, usually in conjunction with periods of sitting.

I read the reference to durable concentration as being to one who is
developing (higher levels of) samatha.

>        Oh -  one more point: It seems that every ongoing lineage within
both
> Theravada and Mahayana has a walking meditation practice of long
standing
> (centuries), and these differ hardly at all from each other. Don't you
find
> this to be a rather surprising coincidence? (The Chinese, BTW, do two
kinds:
> Slow walking with attention to the smallest details of position,
placement,
> and sensation, and normal-speed walking with attention to the body as a
> whole, whereas the Theravadins seem to concentrate on the former.)

What you say is no doubt correct.  But to me the only question is the
significance that the walking is given in the texts.  I'm not sure that
how it has come to be generally understood all these centuries later is of
much relevance to that question.

By coincidence, I just came across the Nanda Sutta (A. VIII, 9) at p.200
of Bh. Bodhi's 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'.  This sutta describes
4 respects in which Nanda 'lives the perfect and pure holy life', namely,
by guarding the sense doors, by being moderate in eating, by cultivating
wakefulness and by setting up mindfulness and clear comprehension.

The text explains how each of these is achieved.  In relation to the
cultivating of wakefulness,  it says that "Nanda purifies his mind from
obstructive thoughts during the day while walking back and forth or
sitting", and likewise during the first watch of the night, sleeping
during the middle watch only.  In the last watch of the night "he again
purifies his mind from obstructive thoughts while walking back and forth
and sitting.  This is Nanda's cultivation of wakefulness."

In this instance the walking back and forth is clearly related to the
cultivation of wakefulness, and not the aspects of guarding the sense
doors or setting up mindfulness and clear comprehension (awareness and
understanding).

As far as I am aware, the idea of 'slowness' as a means or aid to the
development of understanding is not found anywhere in the texts.  

Jon



 
14236 From: abhidhammika  <Suan> 
Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 11:35pm
Subject: Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth

 
  Dear Sarah, Jon, Robert Epstein, and Dhamma Friends

How are you?

The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes the 
fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically 
literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render it in 
as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax Walk-
through" on the translation.

I hope you find it useful.


"`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, 
bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, 
ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko 
udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe …pe… 
udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu
tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa
udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.

The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, 
Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, 
produced by Vipassana research Institute .


THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH

Translated By Suan Lu Zaw

Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light 
occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is the 
noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The eye, 
the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on 
the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that noble 
truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be 
followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and 
the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, as 
for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of 
misery has been accomplished.


GRAMMARTICAL NOTES

Pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu = the previously unheard-of realities 
  This expression could have been rendered as "new discoveries" in 
the modern context.

Me = to me. Me is in the dative case and received the action of 
occurring (udapaadi). It does not have the previously unheard-of 
realities as its object in this context. The Buddha's emphasis here 
is on how his awakening in terms of the five synonyms had occurred to 
him, not on his ignorance of realities.

Cakkhum = cakkhu, the eye of awakening.

Tam = That as the determining adjective of the noble truth. The 
Buddha used "tam" here to contrast it with "idam", which is the 
subject in the previoius sentence so that he could highlight the 
contrast between the observation (This is the noble truth) and the 
action in line with that observation (That noble truth ... should be 
followed through).

Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the 
observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble truth 
as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths.

Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the sound 
effect.

Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows.

Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. Section 
265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa.

Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96 
Paathika Atthakathaa.


With regards,

Suan

http://www.bodhiology.org/

 
14237 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no 7.

 
  Perfections Ch 2, no 7.

We read in the Commentary about the Bodhisatta¹s accumulation of the
perfection of giving:

When he gives a material gift, the Great Man gives food, thinking: ²May I,
by this gift, enable beings to achieve long-life, beauty, happiness,
strength, intelligence, and the supreme fruit of unsullied bliss.² He gives
drink, wishing to allay the thirst of sensual defilements; garments to gain
the adornments of shame and moral dread and the golden complexion (of a
Buddha); vehicles for attaining the modes of psychic potency and the bliss
of nibbåna; scents for producing the sweet scent of virtue; garlands and
unguents for producing the beauty of the Buddha-qualities; seats for
producing the seat on the terrace of enlightenment; bedding for producing
the bed of a Tathågata¹s rest; dwellings so he might become a refuge for
beings; lamps so he might obtain the five eyes 4). He gives visible forms
for producing the fathom-wide aura (surrounding a Buddha); sounds for
producing the Brahmå-like voice (of a Buddha); tastes for endearing himself
to all the world; and tangibles for acquiring a Buddha¹s elegance. He gives
medicines so he might later give the ageless and deathless state of nibbåna.
He gives slaves the gift of freedom so he might later emancipate beings from
the slavery of defilements. He gives blameless amusements and enjoyments in
order to produce delight in the true Dhamma. He gives his own children as a
gift so that he might adopt all beings as his children by granting them an
ariyan birth. He gives his wives as a gift in order that he might become
master over the entire world. He gives gifts of gold, gems, pearls, coral,
etc. in order to achieve the major marks of physical beauty (characteristics
of a Buddha¹s body), and the gifts of the diverse means of beautification in
order to achieve the minor features of physical beauty. He gives his
treasuries as a gift in order to obtain the treasury of the true Dhamma; the
gift of his kingdom in order to become the king of the Dhamma; the gift of
monasteries, parks, ponds, and groves in order to achieve the jhånas, etc.;
the gift of his feet in order that he might approach the terrace of
enlightenment with feet marked with the auspicious wheels; the gift of his
hands in order that he might give to beings the rescuing hand of the true
Dhamma to help them across the four floods 5) ; the gift of his ears, nose,
etc. in order to obtain the spiritual faculties of faith, etc.; the gift of
his eyes in order to obtain the universal eye; the gift of his flesh and
blood with the thought: ³May my body be the means of life for all the world!
May it bring welfare and happiness to all beings at all times, even on
occasions of merely seeing, hearing, recollecting, or ministering to me!²
And he gives the gift of his head in order to become supreme in all the
world.

All his deeds of generosity contributed to his realization of the four noble
Truths when he became the Sammå-sambuddha. We read further on about the
gifts of the Bodhisatta:

The gift of sounds (sadda dåna) should be understood by way of the sounds of
drums, etc. It is certainly not possible to give a sound as one gives a
cluster of lotuses, tearing it out by its bulbs and roots and placing it in
the hands. But one gives a gift of sound by giving its base. Thus he makes a
gift of sound by presenting a musical instrument, such as drums or tom toms,
to the Triple Gem.

One may offer a drum for the benefit of a temple as an offering of sound,
because it can be used to announce the time, the hours or the watches (of
the day and night) and so on. One may play music as an offering of sound to
the Triple Gem, by using instruments such as a drum or tom tom. One may
arrange for oneself or for someone else to use an instrument such as a drum,
with the intention to give sound as an offering.

Footnotes: 
4. These five eyes are the fleshly eye, the divine eye by which he sees the
passing away and rebirth of beings, the wisdom eye, by which he sees all
dhammas with their characteristics and their conditions, the Buddha-eye, by
which he sees the dispositions of beings and the maturity of their
faculties, and the universal eye, his knowledge of omniscience.
5. Floods, oghas, are sensual desire, desire for existence, wrong views and
ignorance.

 
14238 From: kenhowardau   
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 3:57am
Subject: Re: A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result)

 
  Hi Larry, Howard, everyone,

I think it makes perfect sense that wholesome action should bear
pleasant fruit and unwholesome action should bear unpleasant fruit. 
It seems that the only  difficulty any of us are having with this, is 
that it is hard to imagine, or conceptualise, how anything can be
*inherently* pleasant or unpleasant.  

But so what?  Doesn't the difficulty in finding a conceptual 
equivalent of a paramattha dhamma simply illustrate how inadequate 
concepts are? 

Perhaps the lesson to be learnt here is that imitation is not the way 
to go. Admittedly, the Buddha's discourses were presented mainly in
conventional (conceptual), terms but I'm not so sure that he wanted us
to conceptualise (imagine, visualise) what we, as worldlings, cannot
see.
 
This relates back to the matter of formal practice:  Because we can't
directly know realities, some of us settle for closely observing
concepts (breath, thoughts, postures etc.) instead.  This is done with
the intention of seeing them as anicca, dukkha and anatta even though
that is technically incorrect. (Concepts are neither anicca nor dukkha
and are only anatta by default.)

The Buddha taught that we worldlings are, "without regard for the
ariyans, without regard for the ways of the ariyans."(Mulapariyaya-
sutta)  It would be better to understand this than to deny it. 
We `have regard' for the ariyans when we follow them, not when we 
imitate them.

Kind regards :-)
Ken H

 
14239 From: <> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:29am
Subject: ADL ch. 15 (2)

 
  http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm

Abhidhamma In Daily Life 
Chapter 15 (2)

The tadarammana-citta experiences an object not only through the five
sense-doors, but also through the mind-door. In the sense-door process
tadarammana-citta can arise only when the object has not fallen away
yet. If tadarammana-cittas arise in the sense-door process they can
arise also in the succeeding mind-door process. 

The tadarammana-citta is a vipakacitta which can experience an object
through six doors. If the object is visible object, which, in the
eye-door process, is experienced by citta through the eye-door, then the
tadarammana-cittas of that process also experience the object through
the eye-door. The tadarammana-cittas of the mind-door process succeeding
the eye-door process experience that object through the mind-door. If
the object which contacts the sense-door is unpleasant, all vipakacittas
of that process and thus also the tadarammana-cittas, if they arise, are
akusala vipaka. The tadarammana-cittas of the mind-door process
succeeding that sense-door process are also akusala vipaka. If the
object which contacts the sense-door is pleasant, all vipakacittas of
that process, tadarammana-cittas included, are kusala vipaka. It is the
same with the tadarammana cittas of the subsequent mind-door process. 

The function of tadarammana can be performed by eleven different kinds
of citta: by three ahetuka vipakacittas (unaccompanied by roots or
hetus) and by eight sahetuka vipakacittas (accompanied by sobhana
hetus). 

If the tadarammana-citta is ahetuka, the function of tadarammana is
performed by santirana-citta. As we have seen, santirana-citta, which is
always ahetuka vipaka, can perform more than one function.
Santirana-citta performs the function of santirana (investigating) when
it arises in the sense-door process and succeeds sampaticchana-citta.
Apart from the function of santirana, santirana-citta can perform the
functions of patisandhi (rebirth), bhavanga, cuti (dying) and, moreover,
it can perform the function of tadarammana. 

As stated before, there are three kinds of santirana-citta: 

1. Santirana-citta which is akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha
(indifferent feeling). 
2. Santiana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha. 
3. Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by somanassa
(pleasant feeling). 

Only the first and the second kind of santirana-citta (santirana-citta
which is akusala vipaka, and santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka,
accompanied by upekkha) can perform the functions of patisandhi,
bhavanga and cuti. The function of santirana (investigating) can be
performed by all three kinds of santirana-citta. As we have seen,
santirana-citta accompanied by somanassa performs the function of
santirana when the object is extraordinarily pleasant. 

All the time cittas arise and fall away, performing different functions.
The last function of citta in life is the function of cuti (dying). When
we say in conventional language that a person has died, the cuti-citta
(dying-consciousness), which is the last citta of that life, has fallen
away. The cuti-citta is succeeded by the patisandhi-citta
(rebirth-consciousness) of the following life. 

Death is unavoidable. Everybody, no matter whether he is in one of the
hell planes, in the human-being plane or in one of the heavenly planes
has to have cuti-citta. We read in the teachings about birth, old age,
sickness and death. Old age is mentioned immediately after birth, before
sickness is mentioned. The reason is that as soon as we are born, we are
already ageing, we are already on our way to death. We read in the
'Khuddaka Nikaya' ('sutta-Nipata', 'Woven Cadences';, Ch.lll, The Great
Chapter, par. 8, The Dart, vs. 574-583, I use the translation by E.M.
Hare.): 

How insignificant is man's lot here, 
How brief, obscure, how troubled, fraught with ill! 
there is no means whereby man shall not die: 
Death follows on decay: such is life's course. 
The early ripening fruit hazards the fall: 
Ever death's hazard haunts the lives of men. 
Just as the potter's earthen vessel end 
In shards, so too man's life. Young and mature, 
The fool and sage, come all within the power 
Of death: death is for all the common lot; 
And of death's victims passing to yond world, 
No father saves his son, no kith his kin. 
See! while they crowd and gaze and weep, their kin 
Are one by one, as ox to slaughter, borne. Thus smitten is the world by
old age and death, 
The wise world-plight discern, lamenting not. 
Thou knowest not the 'whence' or 'whither' way 
And, seeing neither course, grievest in vain!

 
14240 From: yuzhonghao  <Victor> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 9:32am
Subject: Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Hi Jon and all,

Hmmm, this thread is not mine anyway.

Questions:
1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and 
how is that accomplished?

Answers:
Unskillful qualities are to be understood as passion, aversion, and 
delusion.  They are also to be understood as sensual desire, ill-
will, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and worry, and doubt.  When 
one withdraws from sensuality and unskillful qualities, one abandons 
them.  How is that accomplished?  Please refer this discourse in
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn020.html

Question:
2. What is the difference in the mental state between--
a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and
b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and 
whose mind is focussed on in and out breathing?

For Question 2, Jon, I would suggest to:
Sit in a secluded place with leg crossed and eye closed.  Withdraw 
from sensuality and unskillful qualities.  Focus on in and out 
breathing.  See for yourself, Jon.


Regards,
Victor


---  Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Victor
> 
> Since you came in on my thread, I trust you won't mind me coming on 
on
> yours :-))
> 
>  --- yuzhonghao <Victor> wrote: > Hi Dan,
> > 
> > My suggestion is:
> > 
> > Sit in a secluded place.  Cross the legs.  Close the eyes.  Keep 
the 
> > back erect.  Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities.  
> > Focus the mind on in and out breathing.  After sitting, you might 
> > want to check your experience against the definition/description 
of 
> > right concentration in the Pali Canon.  If you have a teacher, 
talk 
> > to him to get feedback too. 
> > Regards,
> > Victor
> 
> I have been following this thread with interest.  I have a couple of
> questions to throw in for discussion.
> 
> 1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', 
and how
> is that accomplished?
> 
> 2. What is the difference in the mental state between--
> a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, 
and
> b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities 
and whose
> mind is focussed on in and out breathing?
> 
> Jon

 
14241 From: <> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 9:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A gift from Sarah's wrist to Larry's wrist (was, cause & result)

 
  Hi Ken, I agree about the 'so what.' It doesn't make the least
difference whether a vipaka citta is kusala or akusala. What does make a
difference is whether the reaction to it (javana) is with clear
comprehension (sampajanna), or not. 

As I understand it, clear comprehension would discriminate desirable and
undesirable, but there is nothing esoteric about this value. It's just
what bankers and merchants think is desirable and undesirable. In other
words, it is conventional or consensus valuation. The 'ariyan' part is
seeing which ever it is as anicca, dukkha, anatta. We can do that, but
maybe not all the time.

best wishes, Larry

 
14242 From: sukinderpal   
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:53am
Subject: Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters

 
  Hi Frank,

Firstly I like to say that I enjoyed your post to Christine
on Kamma very much. And like her, I think you should write more 
often.
Regarding this post I would however like to make a small comment.

You said:
>   I admire how theravada monks try to make every
> effort to not kill mosquitos, but I find it odd how
> they aren't allowed to drop any hints to the laypeople
> donors that vegetarian food offerings would minimize
> killing. That's just another example of imperfect
> compromises and shows the impossibility of carrying
> out ahimsa all the way. 

I think, when we go to the market for instance, we can look at the 
meat and think it as food and potential source of protein, or we can 
think that it is a dead cow or pig and go on to wonder about why 
someone would kill it. We can pass the meat stall with dosa or 
indifference and move on to the vegetable stall and think that we are
doing the right thing being a vegetarian. Or we can still buy the 
meat just so that we can feed ourselves and at the same time feel 
moved to talk to the butcher about dhamma and the harm in killing.

Sometimes, being a vegetarian or non-vegetarian one may just feel
that talking to ceratin people about non-harming will not help at 
all. So we just move on and eat what we eat and continue with 
concerning mainly with the purification of our own minds.

In the case of the monk, he may like the meat and not desire that he 
be given vegetarian food as offering. Or he may just eat whatever is 
offered and allow the lessons of dhamma to have its effect on the 
lay follower as when and how it will, wothout interference.

The veg. and non-veg. both have loads of arguments for and against.
But I think we need to be concerned about the real "stain" in our 
minds, namely the kilesas, not the stain that we think exists out 
there. When we realize what the Buddha meant by the Middle Way, we 
will know that everything else is just mental proliferation.

I agree with you about he inevitablity of killing small creatures
simply because we are here. But ahimsa is not a matter of whether we 
do step on a cockroach or not no!? Isn't it a question of intention?

Anticipating an enjoyable reply.

Best wishes,
Sukin.

 
14243 From: Robert Epstein  <<>> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:42pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Victor
> 
> Since you came in on my thread, I trust you won't mind me coming on on
> yours :-))
> 
>  --- yuzhonghao <Victor> wrote: > Hi Dan,
> > 
> > My suggestion is:
> > 
> > Sit in a secluded place.  Cross the legs.  Close the eyes.  Keep the 
> > back erect.  Withdraw from sensuality and unskillful qualities.  
> > Focus the mind on in and out breathing.  After sitting, you might 
> > want to check your experience against the definition/description of 
> > right concentration in the Pali Canon.  If you have a teacher, talk 
> > to him to get feedback too. 
> > Regards,
> > Victor
> 
> I have been following this thread with interest.  I have a couple of
> questions to throw in for discussion.
> 
> 1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and how
> is that accomplished?
> 
> 2. What is the difference in the mental state between--
> a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and
> b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and whose
> mind is focussed on in and out breathing?
> 
> Jon 

Jon, 
Since you have jumped in on Victor's thread, may I jump in with you?  Hmmn...the
water seems tepid, just the way I like it, neither hot nor cold.  <g>

Question:  isn't it possible to focus on breathing without having a 'who' that is
focussing?  The consciousness that focusses on breathing can merely focus it, and
then you get a 'breathing-focussed' citta, for better, worse, or neutral.

Robert Ep.

===============================

> > ---  "onco111"  wrote:
> > > Dear Victor,
> > > Most critical is to know the difference between "Right 
> > concentration" 
> > > and wrong concentration. But right concentration does not develop 
> > all 
> > > by itself, it must be accompanied by right view; otherwise, there 
> > is 
> > > no understanding of the difference between concentration and right 
> > > concentration and no development of right concentration. 
> > > 
> > > What is your suggestion for developing right concentration?
> > > 
> > > Dan


 
14244 From: Robert Epstein  <<>> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:44pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc)

 
  I would think that since walking, sitting and lying down are the three main
positions of life, that there would be specialized practices of one kind or
another for practicing mindfulness during these basic phases of physical living. 
It makes sense to me.

Robert Ep.

===

--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Jon -
> 
>        I know a lot of folks who do considerable walking as exercise, but I 
> never noticed that they particularly developed "durable concentration".
>        Oh -  one more point: It seems that every ongoing lineage within both 
> Theravada and Mahayana has a walking meditation practice of long standing 
> (centuries), and these differ hardly at all from each other. Don't you find 
> this to be a rather surprising coincidence? (The Chinese, BTW, do two kinds: 
> Slow walking with attention to the smallest details of position, placement, 
> and sensation, and normal-speed walking with attention to the body as a 
> whole, whereas the Theravadins seem to concentrate on the former.)
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> 
> In a message dated 7/8/02 10:02:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Jon writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Howard
> > 
> > --- Howard wrote: 
> > > Hi, Jon -
> > â€|
> > >        I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts
> > certainly
> > > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from
> > the
> > > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking 
> > > meditation in the open air."
> > > 
> > > With metta,
> > > Howard
> > 
> > As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a
> > translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'.   According to the
> > dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down
> > (as given in both PED and CPED).  If cankamana is the original, then the
> > 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss.  This is
> > perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a
> > prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the
> > translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation').
> > 
> > I was interested to read the 5 benefits of cankamana as summarised by
> > Goggy in a recent post.  In Goggy's words (I have yet to find the
> > original) they are: 
> > 1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 
> > 2) strengthen the mental effort for overall practice 
> > 3) balancing between sitting and walking 
> > 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 
> > 5) builds durable concentration. 
> > 
> > There is no indication here that the walking necessarily involves
> > 'meditation', or that it is regarded as being of any particular benefit as
> > far as the development of understanding is concerned.  (Actually, these
> > remind me somewhat of the benefits given somewhere for eating congee.)
> > 
> > The problem with using 'meditation' in translations is that it has no
> > precise meaning in English, but can be read as implying any number of
> > things.
> > 
> > Jon


 
14245 From: Robert Epstein  <<>> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:46pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc)

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Howard
> 
> --- Howard wrote: 
> > Hi, Jon -
> …
> >        I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts
> certainly
> > do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from
> the
> > Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking 
> > meditation in the open air."
> > 
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> 
> As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a
> translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'.   According to the
> dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down
> (as given in both PED and CPED).  If cankamana is the original, then the
> 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss.  This is
> perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on a
> prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which the
> translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation').

Jon,
Could you tell me the difference between seated contemplation and sitting
meditation?  Those seem pretty similar to me.  

Robert Ep.

============

> I was interested to read the 5 benefits of cankamana as summarised by
> Goggy in a recent post.  In Goggy's words (I have yet to find the
> original) they are: 
> 1) good stamina for long journeys (good for health too, isn't it?) 
> 2) strengthen the mental effort for overall practice 
> 3) balancing between sitting and walking 
> 4) assist digestion (to overcome drowsiness) 
> 5) builds durable concentration. 
> 
> There is no indication here that the walking necessarily involves
> 'meditation', or that it is regarded as being of any particular benefit as
> far as the development of understanding is concerned.  (Actually, these
> remind me somewhat of the benefits given somewhere for eating congee.)
> 
> The problem with using 'meditation' in translations is that it has no
> precise meaning in English, but can be read as implying any number of
> things.
> 
> Jon



 
14246 From: Robert Epstein  <<>> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:55pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Rob Ep
> 
>  --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > 
> My criteria would also be whether a practice brings one towards the path
> that
> eventually brings one to enlightenment.  Any benefits that do not lead
> towards
> enlightenment or that delay or lead away from enlightenment, would not be 
> wished
> for, as they would prolong or increase suffering.
> 
> The question is, whether these practices aid the progress towards
> enlightenment 
> or
> not.  And I am not sure whether either of us can know that with certainty 
> either
> pro or con.  At best we have our educated, or less educated, guesses, and
> mine 
> is
> that if a practice creates conditions that are in line with the dhamma
> then it 
> is
> an aid towards the path of enlightenment, and if not, then not.  If one
> was to
> develop genuine peacefulness and discernment through yoga, then the yoga
> would 
> be
> an aid towards enlightenment.  If those qualities were developed on the
> surface
> but were accompanied by akusala pride in self at accomplishing these
> qualities 
> or
> if they were masking other akusala effects that were in the wrong
> direction, 
> then
> they would be obstacles, not aids.  There is still going to be personal
> interpretation involved.  If a Sutta mentions that many arahants were
> sitting 
> in
> the cross-legged position while entering the jhanas; I am sure that you
> will 
> say
> this is a coincidence and that it is a description not a prescription; and
> that 
> I
> will say it is the path itself.  <g>  Where do we each get our separate
> interpretations?   My guess is that it is because of our backgrounds and
> tendencies:  yours in Abhidhamma; mine in yoga and vipassana meditation as
> well 
> as
> mahayana studies.  So is either one of us right, or are we just 'being 
> ourselves'
> and following our own predilections in this lifetime?
> 
> Jon:
> Yes, a person's understanding of a given passage from the suttas is a
> reflection of their personal interoperation and understanding.  However,
> the original intended meaning is not, and it is that that we need to try
> to ascertain.  
> 
> You say, "If one was to develop genuine peacefulness and discernment
> through yoga, then the yoga would be an aid towards enlightenment."
> 
> Within the teachings there are discussions of the factors that if
> developed lead to more understanding, so it is possible to compare those
> parts of the texts with a given practice and see what similarities if any
> there are.
> 
> I would see as somewhat unreliable the approach of undertaking the
> practice first and then 'checking' the perceived results against
> descriptions found in the texts (if that's what you're refering to).  I
> would imagine that using that approach any number of practices could be
> 'justified' as being an aid.  Don’t you think it's rather subjective?  Why
> not first consider whether the practice in question talks about the same
> things as are found in the teachings?
> 
> Jon

I wish I had the time to compare Patanjali's yoga sutras with the noble eightfold
path.  At present I don't.  While the discernment of anatta is at least explicitly
unique to Buddhism, there are many other aspects of practice that seem to be
similar or parallel.  Since samatha and vipassana, as well as various
samadhis/jhanas, focussing on the nature of the mind, and discerning realities
occur in both; I would say they have some path-goals in common.  Where they may
diverge, one would of course go further and continue on the Buddhist path.  

But we differ I think in that I don't have the assurance you seem to that there is
a single objective meaning for each thing said by the Buddha and that it can be
known with certainty.  I think that meanings are contextualized by one's overall
paradigm and global understanding of the path, and that such a context is
inherently subjective.  I don't think that's an impediment. Rather than striving
for objective, scientific truth in Buddhism, I strive for a trained subjectivity
that gradually gains personal understandings of  Suttic truths from inside out,
not outside in.  The Buddha that is real is the Buddha within, the nature of
consciousness itself, which may be misinterpreted by delusion, but is still
present at all times, waiting to be discerned.  So there are two things:  there
are the realities themselves as they arise for consciousness, and there is the
gradual honing of clarity and understanding through the combination of Suttic
understanding/contemplation and skillful practice at discernment, through
meditation if you like, or through contemplative discernment in everyday life, if
you prefer.  So I see the Suttas as guides rather than answers; and I see the
fruit in front of the eyes, not in the written word.  One glance at a true reality
will explain many suttas; but without them there would be no way to verify one's
perception or to contextualize it in the overall path.  So I see them working
together.

Robert Ep.



 
14247 From: Robert Epstein  <<>> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 2:27pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation

 
  --- Sarah  wrote:
> Dear Shakti,
> 
> I wasn’t going to join in the ‘Goenka corner’, but after seeing the date
> in your post I can’t resist;-)
> .....
>  --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > 
> >  Dear Friends, 
> > I took two course from Mr. Goenka back in 1975 I believe.  
> .....
> “Snap”......same for me and now you have to indulge a little nostalgia
> (Rob Ep, you’re my excuse as you always encourage the India Tales;-))

glad to serve that function!  : )

> Hyderabad, June (?), 1975. I was on my way from Macleod Ganj, Dharmsala to
> Sri Lanka to become a nun and live in a forest temple. The train journey
> (3rd class) was around 100 hours and anyone who has travelled long
> distance, 3rd class in India, 

yikes you should try the bus!  squeezed into a seat with no knee room, knees up on
the chest for nine hours with no bathroom stop, a family of three next to me, and
goats in the back.

Best,
Robert Ep.



 
14248 From: Sarah   
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 5:06pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults

 
  Hi Chris (& Frank),

 --- christine_forsyth  wrote:

> I don't really want to know  what result follows which set of 
> causes.  I don't want to know how to evade  consequences of my 
> actions.  But I want to be able to trust that what I have been taught 
> is true, and works in a just, rational, logical, consistent manner. 
> At this point, I do not feel that. You've been a good help though 
> Frank, making me think more clearly, thanks.

I’ve also appreciated Frank’s posts and great reminders on the
complexities of kamma:
“the complexity of the full working of kamma is one of the
“impnderables”.....", and also his honest post on ahimsa and his
limits;-))) thanks, Frank.....
*****
So how can we trust what we’ve been taught is true and so on? How can we
trust anything the Buddha said about kamma for that matter? Certainly not
by blind belief or just ‘following’ what we’ve been told.  The only way,
as I understand, is by knowing more about wholesome and unwholesome states
and other phenomena, such as rupas and feelings at this moment. By knowing
what is ‘good’ and what is ‘bad’, by seeing the difference between
different intentions, by understanding the immediate efects of the former,
compared with the latter, knowing these dhammas as anatta, there will be
more and more confidence in the ‘rational, logical’ nature of the
Teachings relating to past, present and future.

For example, you can prove for yourself that when there is metta or
kindness to all those ‘critters’ that you attract (possums, monkeys,
pregnant rats, midnight mini-bar inspectors...;-)), you are not ‘harmed’
by them. When one gently wipes aside or ignores the mosquitos (after
taking the precautions you mention), one really doesn’t seem so affected
as when one starts reacting madly with dosa. Of course one may still get
hurt -- and I was bitten by a dog in Bangkok earlier in the year -- but,
when there is metta for the dog, the bodily painful feeling seems less
than when there is dosa. 

In the same way, when one is angry and speaks harshly, not only do others
have a hard time, but one feels many physical effects immediately and the
dosa merely accumulates rather than serving any useful purpose. 

It  also becomes more apparent that intentions cannot be judged by outer
appearances. You give the examples of intellectually impaired adults or
actions performed in different cultures. Even for ourselves, the same act
might be performed with different intentions at different times and
different intentions from moment to moment. Only panna can know what the
(“our’) intention is. We can only guess for others or consider on a
conventional or generalised level.

I’d suggest really, rather than being concerned about future kammic
results and rebirths, it is more helpful to understand present realities
and the nature of inherently good and bad states at this moment. After
all, no other moment can be known. This is the way that gradually we’ll
understand (or rather panna understands) it’s always been like this and
always will, from moment to moment, lifetime to lifetime, with ignorance
as condition. Slowly the cause of suffering (i.e the attachment now to
phenomena which don’t last more than an instant) becomes a little more
apparent. If we think we’ll perform a good deed (good kamma) tomorrow but
neglect the development of kusala at this moment, we lose precious
opportunities, especially opportunities to understand namas and rupas as
anatta.

So it really doesn’t matter what label we use, whether it’s ‘Christian’ or
‘Buddhist’ or what our lifestyle is.or what we enjoy doing. The only
question, as far as I see, is what is the paramattha dhamma (reality) at
this moment which can be known? For this, we need to hear and consider a
lot, over and over again, because  our own experience and ignorance is
very deceptive. As you said to Larry, what we hear needs to be filtered,
examined, checked out and understood carefully, because we’re bound to
hear many different philosophies and Teachings. It is not a matter of
‘self-help’ or ‘doing of anything’, but of sincerely understanding what
life is at this moment. 

Chris, I’m trying (probably not very successfully, but with good
intentions;-)) to approach an area of concern for you and many others.
I’ll be glad if you add any comments or let me know if it’s all off-track.

*****
To finish off on a different topic (the feeding squirrels and fish topic),
I’d like to add a quote from N’s translation of KS’s ‘Perfections’ (under
‘dana’) which I thought added a little more to this theme (for someone, we
can read squirrels, perhaps ;-):

“If we really want to help someone, such as a person who is ill, we need
to
reflect with compassion on the way we will give him assistance. We should
not just give without any discrimination, but we should also know to what
extent our gift is suitable and useful to a sick person. We should know in
detail what is kusala, and we should be discriminative, not neglectful of
kusala. Just as a doctor should precisely know the condition of a person
who
is ill and the dosage of medicaments to be taken that is suitable for each
individual, evenso should we give with discrimination.
The Commentary states:

Again, when asked, he gives to householders things appropriate for
householders, and to monks things appropriate for monks. He gives to his
mother and father, kinsmen and relatives, friends and colleagues,
children,
wife, slaves and workers, without causing pain to anyone. Having promised
an
excellent gift, he does not give something mean. He does not give because
he
desires gain, honour or fame, or because he expects something in return,
or
out of expectation of some fruit other than the supreme enlightenment (in
the case of the Bodhisatta). He does not give detesting the gift or those
who ask. He does not give a discarded object as a gift, not even to
unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse him.”
*****
metta,
Sarah
=====
p.s  Thanks for all your humorous 'critter' posts (let us know what
happens to Mrs pregnant Rat) and Frank, best wishes with the 'evolving';-)

C:“He/she <the gecko> comes in for an hour or two at night, eats any
insects, and squeezes back under the door, and lives on the back verandah
- so cockroaches are one ‘critter’ I don’t currently have.”

My comment: cockroaches in Brisbane must be a lot smaller,weaker and more
timid than the Hong Kong varieties;-)
.................................................................................................................

 
 
14249 From: Sarah   
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 5:21pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth

 
  Dear Suan,

Thank you for your translation and comments which I found very helpful.

>You could perform the "Syntax Walk-
> through" on the translation.
.....
I enjoy this form of 'walk-through' meditation';-)

For ‘cakkhum’ in “the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight etc”,
you mention this is “cakkhu, the eye of awakening.”

I read this just before I read Nina’s latest translation from the Paramis
which refers to the Cariyapitaka’s account of the Bodhisatta’s
accumulation of the parami of giving. It mentions all the objects he gives
and these include “lamps so he might obtain the five eyes.”.

The footnote to the commentary (quoted by Nina) gives:

 “These five eyes are the fleshly eye, the divine eye by which he sees the
passing away and rebirth of beings, the wisdom eye, by which he sees all
dhammas with their characteristics and their conditions, the Buddha-eye,
by
which he sees the dispositions of beings and the maturity of their
faculties, and the universal eye, his knowledge of omniscience.”

I assume ‘cakkhum’ in the 4th Noble Truth refers to the third one, the
‘wisdom eye’, although this probably doesn’t apply as they are all
referring to the Buddha’s ‘five eyes’.....;-)

Thanks,
Sarah
=====
 --- abhidhammika <Suan> wrote: > 
> 
> Dear Sarah, Jon, Robert Epstein, and Dhamma Friends
> 
> How are you?
> 
> The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes the 
> fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically 
> literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render it in 
> as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax Walk-
> through" on the translation.
> 
> I hope you find it useful.
> 
> 
> "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, 
> bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, 
> ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko 
> udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
> ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe …pe… 
> udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
> ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu
> tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa
> udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.
> 
> The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, 
> Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, 
> produced by Vipassana research Institute .
> 
> 
> THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH
> 
> Translated By Suan Lu Zaw
> 
> Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light 
> occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is the 
> noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The eye, 
> the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on 
> the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that noble 
> truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be 
> followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and 
> the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, as 
> for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of 
> misery has been accomplished.
> 
> 
> GRAMMARTICAL NOTES
> 
> Pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu = the previously unheard-of realities 
>   This expression could have been rendered as "new discoveries" in 
> the modern context.
> 
> Me = to me. Me is in the dative case and received the action of 
> occurring (udapaadi). It does not have the previously unheard-of 
> realities as its object in this context. The Buddha's emphasis here 
> is on how his awakening in terms of the five synonyms had occurred to 
> him, not on his ignorance of realities.
> 
> Cakkhum = cakkhu, the eye of awakening.
> 
> Tam = That as the determining adjective of the noble truth. The 
> Buddha used "tam" here to contrast it with "idam", which is the 
> subject in the previoius sentence so that he could highlight the 
> contrast between the observation (This is the noble truth) and the 
> action in line with that observation (That noble truth ... should be 
> followed through).
> 
> Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the 
> observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble truth 
> as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths.
> 
> Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the sound 
> effect.
> 
> Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows.
> 
> Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. Section 
> 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa.
> 
> Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96 
> Paathika Atthakathaa.
> 
> 
> With regards,
> 
> Suan
> 
> http://www.bodhiology.org/


 
14250 From: onco111   
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 8:03pm
Subject: Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Sarah,
My goodness you are tough cookie, but I do appreciate both your 
understanding and your careful consideration. Let's get over these 
last few hurdles before I go back into hibernation (with a number of 
unacknowledged snips...let me know if my taking anything out of 
context distorts what you are saying).

Sarah: I couldn't quite see why you raised these `imperfections of 
insight' from Vis XX. 
--> Dan: There are a number of reasons. Trying to address a number of 
issues at once leads to muddled posts -- no wonder it got confusing! 
Sorry about that. The why's? First, I noticed a lot of 'formal 
meditation' subject lines. The 'imperfections' are a wonderful issue 
to discuss in this context. Second, I think these fit in well with 
Robert's comments about the relationship between insight and calm (in 
particular the idea that insight -> calm) -- Buddhagosa says over and 
over such-and-such meditation phenomenon "due to insight." These two 
issues seemed closely enough related to throw in the mix together. 
Maybe it didn't come out so clear. No matter. I just keep plugging 
away at it.

________________________________
Dan: In Visuddhi Magga, the "imperfections of insight" are discussed 
[XX 105ff], wherein "a beginner of insight" may experience a number 
of phenomena such as illumination, rapture, tranquility, bliss, etc. 

Sarah: I've now looked at the section. These are very 
specific `imperfections' only pertaining to `the beginner of insight' 
or the one with tender insight (as I understand). For example, the 
illumination is `illumination due to insight' and so on. 
--> Dan: Right. Let me re-emphasize what I'm talking about here. 
These phenomena (illumination, etc.) commonly arise in the course of 
meditation, but they are called 'imperfections of insight' only when 
they arise DUE TO insight. I'm sure you'd agree that tranquillity, 
rapture, etc. can arise either from insight or some other cause. When 
they arise without insight, they are called simply tranquillity, 
rapture, etc. instead of 'imperfections of insight'. In addition, the 
manufactured calm that arises during sitting meditation will not even 
be kusala (i.e. won't really 
be 'tranquillity', 'rapture', 'illumination', etc.) if lobha is 
present, even though it may appear to be.

________________________________
Dan: These phenomena may arise for one without insight in the course 
of formal meditation by, say, directing the mind to a kasina or the 
touch of the breath on the upper lip. However, these phenomena can 
also arise "due to insight" in a "beginner of insight," according to 
Vism. [107...] 

Sarah: I don't understand that the very specific phenomena (i.e. 
the `imperfections' you raise) arise without the insight specified. 
--> Dan: There can arise the phenomena of illumination, rapture, 
tranquillity, bliss, etc. without insight. These are what I am 
referring to as 'these phenomena'. They can also arise 'due to' 
insight, in which case they are referred to as imperfections.' 

________________________________
Dan: It may seem like a subtle distinction here -- whether the calm 
is induced by directing the mind onto a particular object or whether 
it is induced by insight -- but the distinction is clear. With the 
purposive directing of the mind onto an object, there is a repeated 
fixing of the attention on the object and the conscious suppression 
of the hindrances.

Sarah: I'd rather just say that calm accompanies kusala cittas. The 
kusala cittas are moments of dana, sila or bhavana. For the 2 kinds 
of bhavana (samatha and vipassana) there must be understanding of the 
object. So I wouldn't use `induced by directing...' and I'm not sure 
I'd use `induced by insight', but possibly. I'd have to think more 
about that one. 
--> Dan: Yes, 'calm accompanies kusala cittas' is a fine thing to 
say. Also, "calm" as I have defined it earlier can surely be 'induced 
by directing'. Confusion between "manufactured calm" and the calm 
accompanying kusala cittas is a big danger. I think our difference 
here is one of pedagogy...Is it more helpful to think of the 
calmness 'induced by directing' as not really calmness, even though 
it sure seems like, especially when we have little experience with 
and awareness of the calmness that accompanies kusala? Or is it more 
helpful to say there are different kinds of calmness, and we need to 
know the differences between them? [No need to define 'calmness' as 
some subset of sobhana cetasikas...] I vote for the latter, so it's 
either going to be a unanimous 2-0 or a 1-1 draw. Actually, we should 
be open to both ways of thinking and talking about it, using 
whichever makes more sense in a given context.

___________________________________
Sarah: To give an analogy. For those who climb Mt Everest, base camp 
is the `beginner' level at which point the serious and dangerous 
climbing begins. On the otherhand, for most of us worldlings, even 
trekking up to base camp would be a high level of accomplishment. 
Beginner or advanced level? Is the glass half full or half empty? I 
don't think this is so much a question of conceit as of realism to 
be 'truthful' to the level of understanding now as Nina was referring 
to (sacca parami). 
--> Dan: The 'beginner of insight' is a beginner of insight. Of 
course, we need to stress that insight is distinctly different from 
purely intellectual understanding, different from thinking about 
kusala/akusala, different from fruits of concentration. Insight 
typically does not arise without tremendous prior support in this 
lifetime from intellectual understanding, thinking about 
kusala/akusala, fruits of concentration, I think. Is this what you 
mean by 'beginning insight' is 'high level wisdom'? I can see how it 
would make sense to talk about this way. Then, to understand 
what 'beginning insight' means, the focus would be on the distinction 
between 'wisdom' and 'insight'. Is that easier to understand that 
than to understand that distinction between insight and intellectual 
understanding + sila + fruits of concentraion is quite sharp? I lean 
toward the latter, but I will abstain this time in favor of "we 
should be open to both ways of thinking and talking about it," so I 
will probably lose 1-0 in the vote. <n' eva domanassa, na wah-wah :) >

__________________________________
Sarah: I'd probably go even further and question whether there really 
can be any `moments of genuine insight' if the distinction between 
concepts and realities isn't apparent (i.e if the object of panna 
isn't known). 
--> Dan: Right.

Sarah: Yes, there will be calm accompanying conceptual rt 
understanding (if it's kusala), but this isn't insight. 
--> Dan: Well, it is not vipassana, but it is a kind of panya.

Sarah: If there is an `apparent discontinuity of consciousness', I've 
no idea what this is. Consciousness never 'discontinues' as I 
understand.
--> Dan: Right. That's why I threw in the word 'apparent'. I've 
heard 'flash of insight,' 'like a lightning flash,' and such 
described in the texts. The view of the world at a moment of a flash 
of insight is quite different from the view at other times [hence the 
description 'flash']. Consciousness putters along, first in this 
direction, then in another, then it might spiral along a certain 
pathway for awhile, and then *WHAM* -- it sees what it's really doing 
for a moment; and then *BOINK* -- it's right back to viewing the 
world in the normal way again, but it has lost its grasp on what it 
had just a few short moments prior: "Huh?! Now where was I?" Followed 
by a little period of "disoriented" spluttering along. That's what I 
mean by an 'apparent discontinuity.'

_______________________
Dan: That's right, Sarah. It is very easy to confuse intellectual 
understanding of d.o. or vipaka with direct understanding, especially 
since we have so little (if any) direct understanding. Of course, 
there may be clear understanding of the distinction between nama and 
rupa at one moment, while confusion and doubt about it arise again 
later -- moha is really a persistent problem. Doubt is finally  
eradicated only with the supramundane path consciousness. 

Sarah: Finally eradicated yes, but gradually attenuated and removed 
at these stages and different aspects of doubt about 1)n&r 2)kamma & 
conditions 3) rise and fall of realities at these stages, to my 
understanding. "When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly 
knows and sees the sign. Hence `right seeing' is said. thus by 
inference from that all formations are clearly seen as impermanent. 
Herein doubt is abandoned....."X1X,26 
--> Dan: Lots of things here to discuss...
1.'Doubt' vs. 'moha', and 'understanding concept' vs. 'understanding 
paramatta-dhamma' are interesting distinctions. (a) As with the 
sotapanna, who at times still has a moha sense of "I am" and a mana 
sense of "I am," no longer has any doubt that "I am" is rubbish and 
why it is so, so the beginner of insight still has a moha sense 
of "nama is rupa" but no has any doubt that "nama is rupa" is rubbish 
and just what that means. This moha that arises from moment to moment 
is not eradicated until arahantship. (b) The game of developing an 
intellectual understanding is distinctly different from developing 
experiential understanding at the paramattha level. One can memorize 
many long lists of various doctrinal terms and talk intelligently 
about each of them and about how they interact but have no bhavana-
maya-panya (wisdom based on direct experience). Similarly, one can 
have direct knowledge of realities and a developed wisdom but still 
not understand the conceptual intricacies and subtleties involved in 
the long lists of terms. [Do we need a skit here about an arahant 
getting lost in all the Pali terminology?]  
2. The paragraph that you cite sounds like stream-entry to me. Let's 
do a little more of the paragraph: "...all formations are clearly 
seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned. [...all formations 
are clearly seen as painful. Herein all doubt is abandoned. <Filling 
in the elision in Ñm's translation>] ...all states are clearly seen 
as not-self. Herein doubt is abandoned." Indeed, it is, as clearly 
expressed in the next two paragraphs: "'Correct knowledge and right 
seeing [as described in the previous paragraph] and covercoming of 
doubt -- these things are one in meaning and only the letter is 
different'(Ps.ii,62f). When a man practicing insight has become 
possessed of this knowledge, he has found comfort in the Buddhas' 
dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, 
he is called a 'lesser stream-enterer.'" An explicit statement about 
the difference between the 'lesser stream-enterer' and the 
regular 'stream-enterer' is not given until the last paragraph of the 
next chapter: "The defining of the truth of suffering has been 
effected with the defining of mentality-materiality in the 
purification of view. The defining of the truth of origination has 
been effected with the discerning of conditions in the purification 
by overcoming doubt. The defining of the truth of the path has been 
effected with the emphasizing of the right path in this purification 
by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path. 
So the defining of three truths has been effected firstly by means of 
mundane knowledge only." [XX 130]


________________________________________
A few final nitpicks...

Dan: ... By "calm", I presume you are referring in particular to 
the 'six pairs' of sobhana cetasikas that sound like various aspects 
of calm. 

Sarah: Primarily calm refers to passaddhi cetasika as you suggested 
earlier. Like you suggest, though, all the 6 pairs accompany all all 
sobhana (beautiful) cittas...
--> Dan: Correction. When YOU use "calm", you are primarily referring 
to passaddhi cetasika. There is no intrisic, necessary association 
between 'calm' and 'passaddhi'. 

.............
Sarah: There are bound to be misunderstandings here, I'm sure. 
--> Dan: Isn't the primary purposes of your discussion group to bring 
to light misunderstandings, and to rectify those that warrant 
rectifying and pass over those that don't? 

.............
Sarah: ...I think you're doing a great service by pointing out these 
pitfalls (I hope you write a book one day ;-)). Dan and for the 
record, I have much respect for the courage shown by you in facing up 
to the truth...
-->Dan: I'm glad that you find my words helpful. Thanks, Sarah. Now, 
it's my turn to choke on the lemonade! 

But I'm puzzled too. I really can't take credit for showing any 
courage, but I don't think jumping into a round of speculation about 
Dan's cittas and cetasikas would be helpful in the slightest bit. Can 
we just pass over this one?

Dan

P.S. No book! Like you say, "It must be harder still, perhaps for 
those who are revered and highly regarded [to face the truth]." I 
look at a book as a way to establish entrenched views in myself. It 
becomes so much harder to develop wisdom when there is the need to 
defend one's published views. Let's wait until I have something less 
speculative to say (and until I'm free of the obligation to bring 
home the bacon).

 
14251 From: abhidhammika  <Suan> 
Date: Wed Jul 10, 2002 11:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth

 
  Dear Sarah

Thank you for mentioning "The Five Eyes" from Nina's post.

In my translation of the fourth noble truth, though, I merely 
regarded the eye as a synonym of the right view or the right seeing. 
In fact, I regarded all the five terms beginning with the eye as 
synonyms of awakening because the Buddha was describing how he 
discovered the four noble truths.

With regards,

Suan








---  Sarah  wrote:
> Dear Suan,
> 
> Thank you for your translation and comments which I found very 
helpful.
> 
> >You could perform the "Syntax Walk-
> > through" on the translation.
> .....
> I enjoy this form of 'walk-through' meditation';-)
> 
> For `cakkhum' in "the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight 
etc",
> you mention this is "cakkhu, the eye of awakening."
> 
> I read this just before I read Nina's latest translation from the 
Paramis
> which refers to the Cariyapitaka's account of the Bodhisatta's
> accumulation of the parami of giving. It mentions all the objects 
he gives
> and these include "lamps so he might obtain the five eyes.".
> 
> The footnote to the commentary (quoted by Nina) gives:
> 
>  "These five eyes are the fleshly eye, the divine eye by which he 
sees the
> passing away and rebirth of beings, the wisdom eye, by which he 
sees all
> dhammas with their characteristics and their conditions, the Buddha-
eye,
> by
> which he sees the dispositions of beings and the maturity of their
> faculties, and the universal eye, his knowledge of omniscience."
> 
> I assume `cakkhum' in the 4th Noble Truth refers to the third one, 
the
> `wisdom eye', although this probably doesn't apply as they are all
> referring to the Buddha's `five eyes'.....;-)
> 
> Thanks,
> Sarah
> =====
>  --- abhidhammika <Suan> wrote: > 
> > 
> > Dear Sarah, Jon, Robert Epstein, and Dhamma Friends
> > 
> > How are you?
> > 
> > The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes 
the 
> > fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically 
> > literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render 
it in 
> > as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax 
Walk-
> > through" on the translation.
> > 
> > I hope you find it useful.
> > 
> > 
> > "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, 
> > bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, 
> > ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko 
> > udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
> > ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe …pe… 
> > udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
> > ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu
> > tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa
> > udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.
> > 
> > The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, 
> > Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, 
> > produced by Vipassana research Institute .
> > 
> > 
> > THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH
> > 
> > Translated By Suan Lu Zaw
> > 
> > Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the 
light 
> > occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is 
the 
> > noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The 
eye, 
> > the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me 
on 
> > the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that 
noble 
> > truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be 
> > followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, 
and 
> > the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities 
that, as 
> > for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for 
cessation of 
> > misery has been accomplished.
> > 
> > 
> > GRAMMARTICAL NOTES
> > 
> > Pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu = the previously unheard-of realities 
> >   This expression could have been rendered as "new discoveries" 
in 
> > the modern context.
> > 
> > Me = to me. Me is in the dative case and received the action of 
> > occurring (udapaadi). It does not have the previously unheard-of 
> > realities as its object in this context. The Buddha's emphasis 
here 
> > is on how his awakening in terms of the five synonyms had 
occurred to 
> > him, not on his ignorance of realities.
> > 
> > Cakkhum = cakkhu, the eye of awakening.
> > 
> > Tam = That as the determining adjective of the noble truth. The 
> > Buddha used "tam" here to contrast it with "idam", which is the 
> > subject in the previoius sentence so that he could highlight the 
> > contrast between the observation (This is the noble truth) and 
the 
> > action in line with that observation (That noble truth ... should 
be 
> > followed through).
> > 
> > Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the 
> > observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble 
truth 
> > as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths.
> > 
> > Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the 
sound 
> > effect.
> > 
> > Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows.
> > 
> > Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. 
Section 
> > 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa.
> > 
> > Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 
96 
> > Paathika Atthakathaa.
> > 
> > 
> > With regards,
> > 
> > Suan
> > 
> > http://www.bodhiology.org/


 
14252 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no. 8

 
  Perfections Ch 2, no 8.

The Commentary explains further about the ways of offering the gift of
sound:

... by giving medicine for the voice, such as oil and molasses, to preachers
of the Dhamma; or by announcing a lecture on the Dhamma, chanting the
scriptures, giving a discourse on the Dhamma, holding a discussion, or
expressing appreciation for the good deeds of others.

One may invite people to sit close for a Dhamma discussion or ask others to
invite them for this purpose. Also when expressing words of appreciation,
anumodana, one can give sound as an offering. When one speaks these words
aloud or invites others to join in the expressing of them, one offers the
gift of sound. This is a condition for others to also take part in the
offering of sound by way of the expression of anumodana.
We read in the Commentary:

Giving thus, the Great Man does not give unwillingly, nor by afflicting
others, nor out of fear, moral shame, or the scolding of those in need of
gifts. When there is something excellent, he does not give what is mean. He
does not give extolling himself and disparaging others. He does not give out
of desire for the fruit, nor with loathing for those who ask, nor with lack
of consideration. Rather, he gives thoroughly, with his own hand, at the
proper time, considerately, without discrimination, filled with joy
throughout the three times (before, during and after giving). Having given,
he does not become remorseful afterwards. He does not become either
conceited or obsequious in relation to the recipients, but behaves amiably
towards them. Bountiful and liberal, he gives things together with a bonus
(saparivåra). For when he gives food, thinking: ²I will give this along with
a bonus², he gives garments, etc. as well. And when he gives garments,
thinking: ³I will give this along with a bonus,² he gives food, etc. as
well...

His generosity is boundless, and he gives something else as a bonus to
accompany his gift. In our daily life we all should investigate and examine
the realities that arise within us as they really are. Although we have
listened to the texts about the Bodhisatta¹s giving, the way we give depends
on conditions and we cannot equal the Bodhisatta in generosity.
Further on in the Commentary we read what the Bodhisatta is thinking when he
has an object that can be given but his citta is not inclined to give:

When the Bodhisatta possesses objects that can be given and suppliants are
present, but his mind does not leap up at the thought of giving and he does
not want to give, he should conclude: ²Surely, I have not been accustomed to
giving in the past, therefore, a desire to give does not arise now in my
mind. So that my mind will delight in giving in the future, I will give a
gift. With an eye for the future let me now relinquish what I have to those
in need.

Thus, we see that giving cannot be forced. A person who has accumulated the
inclination to give often, time and again, is able to give immediately,
without hesitation, without having to think about it again and again.
Therefore, when someone¹s mind does not leap up at the thought of giving
immediately, or when he hesitates, it can be known that he surely did not
accumulate giving in the past.

 
14253 From: <> 
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 7:06am
Subject: ADL ch. 15 (3)

 
  http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm

Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 15 (3)

If one is not wise, one grieves, but for those who cultivate the
Eightfold Path, there will be less sorrow. For him who has attained the
stage of the arahat, there will be cuti-citta, but it will not be
succeeded by patisandhi-citta. Then there is an end to birth, old age,
sickness and death. 

We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Threes, Ch. VII, par. 62,
Terror, V and VI): 

Monks, these three terrors part mother and son. What three? 

A mother cannot bear to see her son grow old. She says, 'I am growing
old. Let not my son grow old.' The son likewise cannot bear to see his
mother grow old. He says, 'I am growing old. Let not my mother grow
old.' And it is the same with regard to getting sick and dying. These
are the three terrors that part mother and son. 

But, monks, there is a way, there is a practice that leads to the
abandoning, to the overpassing of these three terrors that part mother
and son, a way which joins mother and son. What is that way, what is
that practice which so leads?. 

It is just this Eightfold Way, to wit: Right view,..... right
concentration, That is the way, that is the practice... ..

If one is not an arahat yet, there will be a patisandhi-citta succeeding
the cuti-citta, Before the cuti-citta arises, there are only five
javana-citta instead of seven and these are the last javana-cittas of
that lifespan. If kusala kamma will produce the patisandhi-citta of the
next life these last javana-cittas are kusala cittas and if akusala
kamma will produce the patisandhi-citta of the next life they are
akusala cittas. These javana-cittas can experience a pleasant or
unpleasant object through one of the sense-doors or through the
mind-door and this object is conditioned by the kamma which will produce
the patisandhi-citta (See ch.10) . One may remember previous kamma, or
one may experience a sign or symbol of it, or else one may experience a
sign or symbol of the place of one's rebirth. These javana-cittas may or
may not be followed by tadarammana-cittas. The cuti-citta has only the
function of being the dying-moment of that life. The cuti-citta is
vipakacitta produced by the kamma which produced the patisandhi-citta
and the bhavanga-cittas of the life which is just ending; it is of the
same type as these cittas and it experiences the same object. 

When the cuti-citta has fallen away the patisandhi-citta of the
following life arises, which citta may be of a different type, depending
on the kamma which produces it. This patisandhi-citta experiences the
same object as the last javana-cittas arising before the cuti-citta of
the previous life. The patisandhi-citta, all bhavanga-cittas and the
cuti-citta of the next life experience that object. 

The same types of citta which can perform the functions of patisandhi
and bhavanga, can perform the function of cuti. Since there are nineteen
types of citta which can perform the function of patisandhi (See ch.ll)
and the function of bhavanga, there are nineteen types of citta which
can perform the function of cuti. 

If someone suffers great pains before he dies because of an accident or
sickness, the last javana-cittas arising before the cuti-citta will not
necessarily be akusala cittas. There may be akusala cittas with aversion
when he feels the pain, but the last javana-cittas may be kusala cittas.
There may be 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) preceding the
cuti-citta.

 
14254 From: Robert Epstein  <<>> 
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 0:39pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II))

 
  wow, boy did I like that sutta.

robert

=======

--- Howard wrote:
> Hi, Victor (and all) -
> 
> In a message dated 7/2/02 9:30:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Victor writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Hi Rob, Jon, and all,
> > 
> > > 
> > > Well, it looks like we have a sort of arrangement!  Here is the 
> > focus for
> > > our look at the Visuddhimagga , culled from your message above:
> > > 
> > > A. Specific areas of interest:
> > > 1/  the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment,
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I think you might be interested in the discourse
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-044.html
> > 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Well *I* certainly find it interesting!! ;-)) [Also, the Anupada (sp?) 
> Sutta describing the approach to complete enlightenment followed by 
> Sariputta, Captain of the Dhamma, is interesting reading, as is, for example, 
> the standard description of the Buddha's own attainment of complete 
> enlightenment via the first 4 jhanas.]
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > 2/  the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas
> > > themselves. 
> > > 
> > > B. Associated aspects:
> > > 1/ hopefully, make clear what some of the states of 
> > consciousness/Right
> > > Concentration are in the progression of the path,
> > > 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of
> > > meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta.
> > > 3/ find out whether the jhanas can be seen as a states that lead to
> > > enlightenment in a concretely available way (rather than an 
> > intellectual
> > > way)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Victor



 
14255 From: Robert Epstein  <<>> 
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 0:46pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II))

 
  Jon,
I have finally worked my way backwards to this post.  The problem is, in going
backwards, there are always new posts to get through.  It's like trying to get
through the powerful waves at the shoreline to try to get out to the big waves at
sea.  There are always more waves coming in.  Anyway, enough analogy.

I find your 'battle plan' for the jhanas very congenial, and I like your goal in
looking at samatha and the jhanas as well as my own.  I think between us we have a
pretty good interest in looking at the subject, and I'll look forward to anything
you find.

I'll also be on the lookout myself.

Best,
Robert Ep.

========

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Rob Ep
> 
> --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote:
> … 
> > Jon,
> > …  Well I am interested in any description or commentary in the
> > Vissudhimagga
> > which talks about the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment,
> > but also
> > the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas
> > themselves. 
> > Anything in those areas would be of great interest to me.  I'm not sure
> > why I
> > hooked onto the subject of the jhanas when I heard about them sort of
> > belatedly
> > last year.  I hadn't noticed them before, so it must be a kammic
> > occurrence for me
> > to look into something about them.  They are so prominent in many
> > Theravadan
> > writings and practices and seem to me at least to outline the pathway of
> > states
> > that lead to enlightenment in a concretely available way, rather than an
> > intellectual way.  Of course whatever we read about will be intellectual
> > in a
> > sense, but I think the subject may 1/ make clear what some of the states
> > of
> > consciousness/Right Concentration are in the progression of the path,
> > and 2/
> > perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of
> > meditation vs. the
> > role of understanding discernment through sutta.
> 
> Well, it looks like we have a sort of arrangement!  Here is the focus for
> our look at the Visuddhimagga , culled from your message above:
> 
> A. Specific areas of interest:
> 1/  the role of the jhanas in the path to enlightenment,
> 2/  the mechanism, order, production and experience of the jhanas
> themselves. 
> 
> B. Associated aspects:
> 1/ hopefully, make clear what some of the states of consciousness/Right
> Concentration are in the progression of the path,
> 2/ perhaps clarify some of our previous discussions on the role of
> meditation vs. the role of understanding discernment through sutta.
> 3/ find out whether the jhanas can be seen as a states that lead to
> enlightenment in a concretely available way (rather than an intellectual
> way)
> 
> If this sounds OK, I'll start looking out for passages.  But don't hold
> your breath, this will be very much an 'as and when it happens' thing -- I
> hope that's OK with you.
> 
> Of course, anyone else is welcome to join in with passages, questions or
> comments.
> 
> > I am curious as to why it
> > interests you as well.  If you were to say a word about your interest in
> > the jhanas, it might also help me clarify my interest a bit more.
> 
> My interest is in samatha as a form of kusala that was highly praised by
> the Buddha.  Although I have no aspiration to the jhanic states (in this
> lifetime, at least), I do not see that as precluding (or excusing) a
> better understanding of the development of samatha.
> 
> I find there is very little in the suttas on what is actually meant by the
> development of samatha (samatha bhavana).  I would like to know more.  I
> suspect that the generally held idea on this (i.e., go to a quiet place
> and focus on a chosen meditation subject) seriously misses the mark.
> 
> How does that sound?  (Our mission statements may differ, but I think we
> have sufficient common ground ;-)).
> 
> > Anyway, like a dog
> > who hears a bird, this subject just makes my ears perk up, so anything
> > you might
> > find would be of great interest to me.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Robert Ep.
> 
> I'm looking forward to it myself!
> 
> Jon



 
14256 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:53pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism study (was, Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II))

 
  Rob Ep

 --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: 
> Jon,
> I have finally worked my way backwards to this post.  The problem is, in
> going
> backwards, there are always new posts to get through.  It's like trying
> to get
> through the powerful waves at the shoreline to try to get out to the big
> waves at
> sea.  There are always more waves coming in.  Anyway, enough analogy.

A good analogy, Rob.  I find it perfectly describes the difficulty I'm
having in getting anything posted on this thread.  There are always plenty
of other interesting (not to mention challenging) posts to respond to!
 
> I find your 'battle plan' for the jhanas very congenial, and I like your
> goal in
> looking at samatha and the jhanas as well as my own.  I think between us
> we have a
> pretty good interest in looking at the subject, and I'll look forward to
> anything
> you find.
> 
> I'll also be on the lookout myself.

Yes, I think we'll make a good team (between us covering the 2 extremes of
view!!)

Jon



 
14257 From: Sarah   
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:21pm
Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation

 
  Hi Howard (& Christine),

I’m just back from having tea with Christine’s very fine (grown) kids who
are on holiday in Hong Kong and Beijing and were keen to give the
‘NormalityTest for Parental Internet Friends’.  Actually, thanks to their
gentle questions, I think we managed to scrape through, because at the end
of the Test, they both announced they’d be joining us for the Noosa DSG
get together later this month;-)). (Now, if it had been Dan’s or Sukin’s
sons or Rob Ep’s daughter, we might have been given far tougher qus like:
“Where is Mr Dosa?”, “When you’re sick, do you eat congee for every
meal?”, or “Where’s your baseball?”)

Enough frivolity. Back to rupas and thankyou for these helpful points for
consideration:

   --- Howard wrote: 

>        Okay, this gets precise: solidity, temperature, and pressure -
> that is 
> bodily rupa. This then presumably leaves physical pain as vedana
> (normally, 
> but not always, felt as unpleasant). 
.....
By definition, if it’s ‘physical pain’ it will always be unpleasant bodily
feeling, conditioned by the rupas. Sometimes, like when a mosquito lands
on an arm(this is for Frank;-)), we assume there is painful feeling
because of the ‘story’, but it may not be so.
.....
>But where does this leave such
> things as 
> itches, tinglings, vibrations, feelings of "numbness", queasy 
> pit-of-the-stomach feelings/"butterflies in the stomach", the odd
> feelings on 
> knees/shoulders associated with fear, hunger pangs, physical thirst,
> etc, 
> etc. The question is whether these are varieties, perhaps in
> combination, of 
> solidity, temperature, and pressure, and whether even pains, themselves,
> are 
> varieties of these? 
.....
What we take for the above are the rupas that appear throught the
bodysense and the unpleasant feeling which experiences them. (Even though
these are the only rupas experienced through the bodysense, of course all
rupas arise together in a ‘kalapa’ of at least 8 rupas together, but I
don’t want to get too technical here).

Those that haven’t heard the dhamma (or phenomenalism??), are sure that
they can feel a computer or piece of glass. We are now sure this isn’t
correct, but we may be sure we can experience apo dhatu (water or
cohesion) through the bodysense, especially as we know it’s a reality. We
can in fact prove that when we think there is the experience of water
touched, in fact it’s only temperature, softness and motion, even though
apo dhatu has to arise together with and ‘bind’ all other rupas. I mention
these examples just to show how unreliable experience can be.

In your examples above, I think that the element of wind (vayo dhatu) is
particularly prominent.  When there is the bodily experience of vibration,
oscillation, motion or pressure experienced, it is vayo dhatu.

From the Mahhatthipadopama Sutta (MN 28, Elephant’s footprint, BB trans.)
yet again:

“What, friends, is the air element?  The air element may be either
internal or external.  What is the internal air element?  Whatever
internally, belonging to oneself, is air, airy, and clung-to;  that is,
up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the belly, winds in the bowels,
winds that course through the limbs, in-breath and out-breath, or whatever
else internally, belonging to oneself, is air, airy, and clkung-to;  this
is called the air element....”<end quote>
*****
The air element acts as distension of the other three Great Elements
(i.e.earth, fire and water elements) and each of these Great Elements has
the other three as proximate cause, conditioning each other (Vis X1, 109).
As there is so vey little awareness of elements and these rupas, we are
continually deceived by them as we’ve been discussing. In Vis X1, 100 we
read:

“..these elements (referring to the 4 Great Elements) conceal each their
own characteristics and function classed as hardness, etc, by means of a
pleasing skin colour of women’s and men’s bodies, etc, and pleasing shapes
of limbs and pleasing gestures of fingers, toes nd eyebrows, and they
deceive simple people by concealing their own functions and
characteristics beginning with hardness and do not allow their individual
essences to be seen....” <end quote>
*****

>That seems quite doubtful. It seems more likely that
> these are a different category things, namely automatic responses to 
> variously sensed rupas (through various ayatana) rather than varieties
> of 
> bodily rupas themselves. That is, these are vedana.
.....
Remember, all these vedana do are to feel or ‘taste’ the rupas experienced
through the body sense. These vedana are only pleasant or unpleasant,
never neutral. Also, remember there are many other rupas involved in the
kalapa (smallest unit).. For example, whenever citta causes any part of
the body to move there must be lahuta rupa (buoyancy), muduta rupa
(plasticity) and kammannata rupa (wieldiness) produced by temperature and
nutrition, otherwise the body wouldn’t move, such as when a limb is
paraylsed. Again, I think it’s easy to be deceived by the effects.
......
>        If none of these things are (combinations of) varieties of
> solidity, 
> temperature, and pressure, but, rather, are automatic bodily/mental
> responses 
> to phassa (in biological terms, perhaps a kind of thrashing about of the
> 
> nervous system), then they are all vedana, not rupa, and the Goenka 
> interpretation is correct, with pleasantness, unpleasantness, and
> neutrality 
> being (conditioned) *characteristics* of vedana, but not the vedana 
> themselves. [So, for example, contact with certain rupas produces the
> vedana 
> of tingling on ones cheek, a tingling that is, say, neutral in feel.
> There 
> would then be three things involved, the original contact, the resulting
> 
> vedana of tingling, and, not really separate from the tingling, its 
> characteristic of "neutral feel".]  
>        At this point, I still see two alternative views, with the case
> not 
> having been fully made for either. 
>        One last point: As far as one's "salvation" is concerned, to use
> a 
> very non-Buddhist term, this whole issue is not of great importance. (It
> is 
> only of interest in having a clear understanding of terminology.) 
.....
On the otherhand, I think it is important to ‘separate’ (by direct
understanding, not just by thinking or ‘focussing’) the distinction
between the unpleasant or painful feeling and the rupas experienced as
between any other namas and rupas.
.....
>What
> *is* 
> important is in realizing that all these experienced phenomena, whatever
> we 
> call them, are impermanent, insubstantial, conditioned, and impersonal -
> 
> neither me nor mine. And directly seeing them through vipassana bhavana
> as 
> they arise and cease enables the direct understanding of their true
> nature, 
> the wisdom that frees us from clinging to them.
.....
I agree with this helpful summary. However, as I’ve been discussing with
Dan, before there can be any understanding of the rising and falling away
of these phenomena through vipassana bhavana, they have to be clearly
understood and known first.The 4 characteristics of rupas (arising
(upacaya), continuation (santati), decay (jarata) and falling away
(aniccata) can only be known after the distinct sabhava or lakhana or the
rupas is apparent as I understand.

I may have got a little lost in some of your comments towards the end, but
I know you’ll let me know if they are not addressed.

Sarah
======

 


 
14258 From: Sarah   
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:42pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: formal meditation

 
  Hi Rob Ep,

Always glad to see you around..looking f/w to when you and Jon actually
brave those waves;-)

 --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > 

> > .. 3rd class in India, 
> 
> yikes you should try the bus!  squeezed into a seat with no knee room,
> knees up on
> the chest for nine hours with no bathroom stop, a family of three next
> to me, and
> goats in the back.
.....
;-))) being small in Asia has its advantages.... still lots of
opportunities for 'formal meditation' (as in our heading) with no end to
the "itches, tinglings, vibrations, feelings of "numbness", queasy
pit-of-the-stomach feelings/"butterflies in the stomach", the odd feelings
on knees/shoulders axxxociated with fear, hunger pangs, physical thirst,
etc, etc" <to quote Howard>.;-)

What fun we had when we were young......;-)

Sarah
======


 
14259 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:49pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma - children or intell. impaired adults

 
  Hi Sarah,

I appreciated this post, very clear and satisfying to read, and 
allayed a number of concerns (though I have to protest at being 
accused of attracting 'critters'  this smacks of victim blaming...:)
  
Thanks for letting me know my offspring are alive and well - I'll 
resist asking any other 'mother' type questions.  SarahF did tell me 
they had visited a very large Buddha statue on an island, and Luke 
said he had been hiking the walking trails around Hong Kong, got 
lost, and had found the Temple of the Ten thousand Buddhas on the top 
of a hill.  Glad to hear you passed the test - what would we have 
done if you hadn't come up to scratch....? :)

At the end of your post I get the distinct impression you have the 
same feeling about my cockroach-eating gecko as I do about your 
gulping snake...... So, a gift for you ...
http://www.geocities.com/brisbane_hoppers/Cockroaches.htm

metta,
Chris

---  Sarah  wrote:
> Hi Chris (& Frank),
> 
>  --- christine_forsyth  wrote:
> 
> > I don't really want to know  what result follows which set of 
> > causes.  I don't want to know how to evade  consequences of my 
> > actions.  But I want to be able to trust that what I have been 
taught 
> > is true, and works in a just, rational, logical, consistent 
manner. 
> > At this point, I do not feel that. You've been a good help though 
> > Frank, making me think more clearly, thanks.
> 
> I've also appreciated Frank's posts and great reminders on the
> complexities of kamma:
> "the complexity of the full working of kamma is one of the
> "impnderables".....", and also his honest post on ahimsa and his
> limits;-))) thanks, Frank.....
> *****
> So how can we trust what we've been taught is true and so on? How 
can we
> trust anything the Buddha said about kamma for that matter? 
Certainly not
> by blind belief or just `following' what we've been told.  The only 
way,
> as I understand, is by knowing more about wholesome and unwholesome 
states
> and other phenomena, such as rupas and feelings at this moment. By 
knowing
> what is `good' and what is `bad', by seeing the difference between
> different intentions, by understanding the immediate efects of the 
former,
> compared with the latter, knowing these dhammas as anatta, there 
will be
> more and more confidence in the `rational, logical' nature of the
> Teachings relating to past, present and future.
> 
> For example, you can prove for yourself that when there is metta or
> kindness to all those `critters' that you attract (possums, monkeys,
> pregnant rats, midnight mini-bar inspectors...;-)), you are 
not `harmed'
> by them. When one gently wipes aside or ignores the mosquitos (after
> taking the precautions you mention), one really doesn't seem so 
affected
> as when one starts reacting madly with dosa. Of course one may 
still get
> hurt -- and I was bitten by a dog in Bangkok earlier in the year -- 
but,
> when there is metta for the dog, the bodily painful feeling seems 
less
> than when there is dosa. 
> 
> In the same way, when one is angry and speaks harshly, not only do 
others
> have a hard time, but one feels many physical effects immediately 
and the
> dosa merely accumulates rather than serving any useful purpose. 
> 
> It  also becomes more apparent that intentions cannot be judged by 
outer
> appearances. You give the examples of intellectually impaired 
adults or
> actions performed in different cultures. Even for ourselves, the 
same act
> might be performed with different intentions at different times and
> different intentions from moment to moment. Only panna can know 
what the
> ("our') intention is. We can only guess for others or consider on a
> conventional or generalised level.
> 
> I'd suggest really, rather than being concerned about future kammic
> results and rebirths, it is more helpful to understand present 
realities
> and the nature of inherently good and bad states at this moment. 
After
> all, no other moment can be known. This is the way that gradually 
we'll
> understand (or rather panna understands) it's always been like this 
and
> always will, from moment to moment, lifetime to lifetime, with 
ignorance
> as condition. Slowly the cause of suffering (i.e the attachment now 
to
> phenomena which don't last more than an instant) becomes a little 
more
> apparent. If we think we'll perform a good deed (good kamma) 
tomorrow but
> neglect the development of kusala at this moment, we lose precious
> opportunities, especially opportunities to understand namas and 
rupas as
> anatta.
> 
> So it really doesn't matter what label we use, whether 
it's `Christian' or
> `Buddhist' or what our lifestyle is.or what we enjoy doing. The only
> question, as far as I see, is what is the paramattha dhamma 
(reality) at
> this moment which can be known? For this, we need to hear and 
consider a
> lot, over and over again, because  our own experience and ignorance 
is
> very deceptive. As you said to Larry, what we hear needs to be 
filtered,
> examined, checked out and understood carefully, because we're bound 
to
> hear many different philosophies and Teachings. It is not a matter 
of
> `self-help' or `doing of anything', but of sincerely understanding 
what
> life is at this moment. 
> 
> Chris, I'm trying (probably not very successfully, but with good
> intentions;-)) to approach an area of concern for you and many 
others.
> I'll be glad if you add any comments or let me know if it's all off-
track.
> 
> *****
> To finish off on a different topic (the feeding squirrels and fish 
topic),
> I'd like to add a quote from N's translation of KS's `Perfections' 
(under
> `dana') which I thought added a little more to this theme (for 
someone, we
> can read squirrels, perhaps ;-):
> 
> "If we really want to help someone, such as a person who is ill, we 
need
> to
> reflect with compassion on the way we will give him assistance. We 
should
> not just give without any discrimination, but we should also know 
to what
> extent our gift is suitable and useful to a sick person. We should 
know in
> detail what is kusala, and we should be discriminative, not 
neglectful of
> kusala. Just as a doctor should precisely know the condition of a 
person
> who
> is ill and the dosage of medicaments to be taken that is suitable 
for each
> individual, evenso should we give with discrimination.
> The Commentary states:
> 
> Again, when asked, he gives to householders things appropriate for
> householders, and to monks things appropriate for monks. He gives 
to his
> mother and father, kinsmen and relatives, friends and colleagues,
> children,
> wife, slaves and workers, without causing pain to anyone. Having 
promised
> an
> excellent gift, he does not give something mean. He does not give 
because
> he
> desires gain, honour or fame, or because he expects something in 
return,
> or
> out of expectation of some fruit other than the supreme 
enlightenment (in
> the case of the Bodhisatta). He does not give detesting the gift or 
those
> who ask. He does not give a discarded object as a gift, not even to
> unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse him."
> *****
> metta,
> Sarah
> =====
> p.s  Thanks for all your humorous 'critter' posts (let us know what
> happens to Mrs pregnant Rat) and Frank, best wishes with 
the 'evolving';-)
> 
> C:"He/she <the gecko> comes in for an hour or two at night, eats any
> insects, and squeezes back under the door, and lives on the back 
verandah
> - so cockroaches are one `critter' I don't currently have."
> 
> My comment: cockroaches in Brisbane must be a lot smaller,weaker 
and more
> timid than the Hong Kong varieties;-)
> ....................................................................
.............................................
>

 
14260 From: Ruth Klein   
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:57pm
Subject: FW: [dsg] introduction

 
  > -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarah [mailto:<>]
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 4:03 AM
> To: Ruth
> Subject: RE: [dsg] introduction
>
>
> Dear Ruth,
>
>  --- Ruth Klein  wrote:
>
> > Thank your for your kind reply and warm welcome.
> .....
> Thank you for adding more info below:
> .....
> > Since I haven't done much study, it IS like diving in here.  Though I
> > have
> > read many commentaries and listened to many Dhamma talks, I have not
> > read
> > the cource material yet.  I have just taken a translation of the
> > Majjhima
> > Nikaya out of the library.  My intention is to read 1 sutta every
> > evening
> > for the next 150 days!  At least that will familiarize me with things,
> > before going through an depth analysis of anything.
> .....
> This sounds like an excellent project. Is it the PTS translation of MN
> that you’ve borrowed? In any case, please share any of your reading,
> considerations, comments or questions with us in any way you like. Most of
> us have copies of one translation or other and we’ll be glad to hear how
> you find the suttas and what carries special meaning for you.
> ....
> >
> > I am not in CA... although I came pretty close to accepting a graduate
> > assistantship at San Diego State Univ.  (The quartet got a better offer
> > from
> > the University of Oklahoma....)  There in Norman I found a small, but
> > strong, non-sectarian meditation group.  For the summer, however, I am
> > working in small town Ohio.  The closest meditation group is 1.5 hours
> > away,
> > and my schedule is so quirky that I don't get to sit with them on a
> > regular
> > basis.  I'm really going through a depression right, feeling very
> > separated,
> > different and alone now, and feel the need for some external support.
> .....
> I’m sorry to hear you’re having a difficult time and I hope we can offter
> ‘some external support’. I know many others on DSG will understand these
> thoughts and feelings and I hope this discussion group can fill a ‘gap’.
> .....
> > My
> > parents haven't been helping - with their well-intended but unwelcome
> > comments about finding a real job, a husband, and making grandchildren.
> .....
> It’s good you can appreciate their kind intentions....Parents want their
> kids to be happy and these are the ways conventionally considered to lead
> to happiness;-) A good sense of humour helps too, I think.
> .....
> >
> > When this festival ends in Aug I will be flying out to CA to spend a
> > week at
> > Wat Metta.  I have never been at a Buddhist monestary before - actually,
> > I
> > have never even met a monk or nun or even had a real spiritual teacher
> > yet.
> > However, I have a friend who studies with Ajaan Geoff (and who intends
> > to
> > ordain at the monestary soon).  I have been inspired by some of the
> > Ajaan's
> > writings and talks, so I figured I'd give it a try.  It's time.  I
> > cannot
> > live through this confusion and fog. I think I've put myself on the
> > right
> > path, but often I have to stumble through.  If someone else had a torch
> > I
> > might be able to see where to make the next step.
> >
> > Well, my alarm just went off... 15 minutes to get dressed and run over
> > for
> > the matinee...
> .....
> Thanks for sharing, Ruth. We’ll be glad to hear how you get on. In the
> meantime, if we can help with the ‘confusion and fog’ at all, pls let us
> know. So often what we think of in this way is just thinking with
> aversion, which doesn’t necessarily make it any easier;-)
>
> Sarah
> ======
>
>

 
14261 From: Ruth Klein   
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 7:05pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] introduction

 
  [stuff deleted]

> > > Since I haven't done much study, it IS like diving in here.  Though I
> > > have
> > > read many commentaries and listened to many Dhamma talks, I have not
> > > read
> > > the cource material yet.  I have just taken a translation of the
> > > Majjhima
> > > Nikaya out of the library.  My intention is to read 1 sutta every
> > > evening
> > > for the next 150 days!  At least that will familiarize me with things,
> > > before going through an depth analysis of anything.
> > .....
> > This sounds like an excellent project. Is it the PTS translation of MN
> > that you’ve borrowed? In any case, please share any of your reading,
> > considerations, comments or questions with us in any way you
> like. Most of
> > us have copies of one translation or other and we’ll be glad to hear how
> > you find the suttas and what carries special meaning for you.
> > ....

No, I have the Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bohdi translation.  I've
supplemented it with the translations from Access to Insight
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index.html) which are mostly Thanissaro
Bhikkhu's translations.  The later are easier (lighter) to carry around!

Ruth

 
14262 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:05pm
Subject: Re: Rupa vs Vedana Re: [dsg] Re: formal meditation

 
  Hi, Sarah -

       Okay, thanks. What I mainly get from the following are three things:
       1) The "itches, tinglings, vibrations, feelings of 'numbness', queasy 
pit-of-the-stomach feelings/'butterflies in the stomach', the odd  feelings 
on  knees/shoulders associated with fear, hunger pangs, physical thirst,  
etc,  etc." are all rupas - variants of "earth, air, fire, and water", of 
solidity, of motion/energy, of varieties and degrees of warmth, and of 
fluidity/cohesion.
       2) Vedana is the tasting of rupas (and namas) as pleasant, unpleasant, 
or neutral, and
       3) Instances of physical pain are always instances of unpleasant 
vedana.
       I had first written the following in reply to this:
*********************************************************
       I'm quite satisfied with this except for item 3. It just does not make 
personal sense to me. I can readily distinguish between four things: a) The 
sharp, strong pressure on my arm of an injection, b) the resulting pain, c) 
the unpleasant feel of that pain, and d) the reaction of aversion. Taking the 
view that physical sensation is rupa and the affective tase of is is vedana, 
I see this as follows: a) is rupa, b) is rupa!!, c) is vedana, and d) is 
sankhara. The pain is felt as unpleasant, but it is not that unpleasantness. 
It is just the same as an itch being felt as unpleasant, but not itself being 
that unpleasantness. To me, physical pains fall into exactly the same 
category as itches, tinglings, etc. Either they are all rupa or they are all 
vedana, but they are inthe same class.
       The other respect with which I differ on item 3 is with regard to 
physical pain being consistently unpleasant. This is just not so. There are 
varieties and degrees of pain, and how they are felt (tasted) differes from 
person to person. The extreme of this, of course, occurs in the case of 
masochists who typically find pain as pleasant. But even for "normal" people, 
pains of certain sorts and of certain intensities (or lack thereof) are felt 
as pleasant, this differing from person to person. I agree that *usually* 
pain is unpleasant. I disagree that it is *always* so.
*************************************************
       But I have just re-read and re-thought the matter, and I find myself 
disagreeing with what I, myself, just wrote!! ;-)) So let me do an instant 
self-criticism and correction:
       1) With regard to my distinguishing a) The sharp, strong pressure on 
my arm of an injection, b) the resulting pain, c) the unpleasant feel of that 
pain, and d) the reaction of aversion, I believe I was in error here. In 
fact, (b) = (c).The sharp, strong pressure of the injection, item (a), is 
indeed, rupa. It may be felt as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Feeling it 
as unpleasant, (c), is exactly what (b) is, namely physical pain (i.e., 
rupa-induced unpleasantness). The juxtaposition of the sharp strong pressure 
(rupa) with the ensuing unpleasant feel (vedana) gets mixed in the mind , and 
there *seems* to be an intermediate and separate rupa of "physical pain", but 
that is an error.
       Secondly, what I took to be some people finding some pains as 
pleasant, others as unpleasant, and still others as neutral is not that at 
all. What is really the case is that some *rupas* (strong or light pressures, 
tinglings, itches etc) are felt as neutral, pleasant, or unpleasant by 
various people under various circumstances. Feeling a rupa as unpleasant is 
the experience of pain. That can be the *definition* of physical pain. It 
still remains true, however, that pain need not be met with aversion. It may 
be met with equanimity. The sharp, strong pressure of an injection may well 
be painful (i.e., felt as unpleasant), but we may or may not *mind* that 
pain. When we mind it, that is the sankhara of aversion.

With metta,
Howard
             

In a message dated 7/11/02 5:22:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
<> writes:


> Hi Howard (& Christine),
> 
> I’m just back from having tea with Christine’s very fine (grown) kids who
> are on holiday in Hong Kong and Beijing and were keen to give the
> ‘NormalityTest for Parental Internet Friends’. Actually, thanks to their
> gentle questions, I think we managed to scrape through, because at the end
> of the Test, they both announced they’d be joining us for the Noosa DSG
> get together later this month;-)). (Now, if it had been Dan’s or Sukin’s
> sons or Rob Ep’s daughter, we might have been given far tougher qus like:
> “Where is Mr Dosa?�, “When you’re sick, do you eat congee for every
> meal?�, or “Where’s your baseball?�)
> 
> Enough frivolity. Back to rupas and thankyou for these helpful points for
> consideration:
> 
>    --- Howard wrote: 
> 
> >        Okay, this gets precise: solidity, temperature, and pressure -
> > that is 
> > bodily rupa. This then presumably leaves physical pain as vedana
> > (normally, 
> > but not always, felt as unpleasant). 
> .....
> By definition, if it’s ‘physical pain’ it will always be unpleasant bodily
> feeling, conditioned by the rupas. Sometimes, like when a mosquito lands
> on an arm(this is for Frank;-)), we assume there is painful feeling
> because of the ‘story’, but it may not be so.
> .....
> >But where does this leave such
> > things as 
> > itches, tinglings, vibrations, feelings of "numbness", queasy 
> > pit-of-the-stomach feelings/"butterflies in the stomach", the odd
> > feelings on 
> > knees/shoulders associated with fear, hunger pangs, physical thirst,
> > etc, 
> > etc. The question is whether these are varieties, perhaps in
> > combination, of 
> > solidity, temperature, and pressure, and whether even pains, themselves,
> > are 
> > varieties of these? 
> .....
> What we take for the above are the rupas that appear throught the
> bodysense and the unpleasant feeling which experiences them. (Even though
> these are the only rupas experienced through the bodysense, of course all
> rupas arise together in a ‘kalapa’ of at least 8 rupas together, but I
> don’t want to get too technical here).
> 
> Those that haven’t heard the dhamma (or phenomenalism??), are sure that
> they can feel a computer or piece of glass. We are now sure this isn’t
> correct, but we may be sure we can experience apo dhatu (water or
> cohesion) through the bodysense, especially as we know it’s a reality. We
> can in fact prove that when we think there is the experience of water
> touched, in fact it’s only temperature, softness and motion, even though
> apo dhatu has to arise together with and ‘bind’ all other rupas. I mention
> these examples just to show how unreliable experience can be.
> 
> In your examples above, I think that the element of wind (vayo dhatu) is
> particularly prominent.  When there is the bodily experience of vibration,
> oscillation, motion or pressure experienced, it is vayo dhatu.
> 
> From the Mahhatthipadopama Sutta (MN 28, Elephant’s footprint, BB trans.)
> yet again:
> 
> “What, friends, is the air element?  The air element may be either
> internal or external.  What is the internal air element?  Whatever
> internally, belonging to oneself, is air, airy, and clung-to;  that is,
> up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the belly, winds in the bowels,
> winds that course through the limbs, in-breath and out-breath, or whatever
> else internally, belonging to oneself, is air, airy, and clkung-to;  this
> is called the air element....�<end quote>
> *****
> The air element acts as distension of the other three Great Elements
> (i.e.earth, fire and water elements) and each of these Great Elements has
> the other three as proximate cause, conditioning each other (Vis X1, 109).
> As there is so vey little awareness of elements and these rupas, we are
> continually deceived by them as we’ve been discussing. In Vis X1, 100 we
> read:
> 
> “..these elements (referring to the 4 Great Elements) conceal each their
> own characteristics and function classed as hardness, etc, by means of a
> pleasing skin colour of women’s and men’s bodies, etc, and pleasing shapes
> of limbs and pleasing gestures of fingers, toes nd eyebrows, and they
> deceive simple people by concealing their own functions and
> characteristics beginning with hardness and do not allow their individual
> essences to be seen....� <end quote>
> *****
> 
> >That seems quite doubtful. It seems more likely that
> > these are a different category things, namely automatic responses to 
> > variously sensed rupas (through various ayatana) rather than varieties
> > of 
> > bodily rupas themselves. That is, these are vedana.
> .....
> Remember, all these vedana do are to feel or ‘taste’ the rupas experienced
> through the body sense. These vedana are only pleasant or unpleasant,
> never neutral. Also, remember there are many other rupas involved in the
> kalapa (smallest unit).. For example, whenever citta causes any part of
> the body to move there must be lahuta rupa (buoyancy), muduta rupa
> (plasticity) and kammannata rupa (wieldiness) produced by temperature and
> nutrition, otherwise the body wouldn’t move, such as when a limb is
> paraylsed. Again, I think it’s easy to be deceived by the effects.
> ......
> >        If none of these things are (combinations of) varieties of
> > solidity, 
> > temperature, and pressure, but, rather, are automatic bodily/mental
> > responses 
> > to phassa (in biological terms, perhaps a kind of thrashing about of the
> > 
> > nervous system), then they are all vedana, not rupa, and the Goenka 
> > interpretation is correct, with pleasantness, unpleasantness, and
> > neutrality 
> > being (conditioned) *characteristics* of vedana, but not the vedana 
> > themselves. [So, for example, contact with certain rupas produces the
> > vedana 
> > of tingling on ones cheek, a tingling that is, say, neutral in feel.
> > There 
> > would then be three things involved, the original contact, the resulting
> > 
> > vedana of tingling, and, not really separate from the tingling, its 
> > characteristic of "neutral feel".]  
> >        At this point, I still see two alternative views, with the case
> > not 
> > having been fully made for either. 
> >        One last point: As far as one's "salvation" is concerned, to use
> > a 
> > very non-Buddhist term, this whole issue is not of great importance. (It
> > is 
> > only of interest in having a clear understanding of terminology.) 
> .....
> On the otherhand, I think it is important to ‘separate’ (by direct
> understanding, not just by thinking or ‘focussing’) the distinction
> between the unpleasant or painful feeling and the rupas experienced as
> between any other namas and rupas.
> .....
> >What
> > *is* 
> > important is in realizing that all these experienced phenomena, whatever
> > we 
> > call them, are impermanent, insubstantial, conditioned, and impersonal -
> > 
> > neither me nor mine. And directly seeing them through vipassana bhavana
> > as 
> > they arise and cease enables the direct understanding of their true
> > nature, 
> > the wisdom that frees us from clinging to them.
> .....
> I agree with this helpful summary. However, as I’ve been discussing with
> Dan, before there can be any understanding of the rising and falling away
> of these phenomena through vipassana bhavana, they have to be clearly
> understood and known first.The 4 characteristics of rupas (arising
> (upacaya), continuation (santati), decay (jarata) and falling away
> (aniccata) can only be known after the distinct sabhava or lakhana or the
> rupas is apparent as I understand.
> 
> I may have got a little lost in some of your comments towards the end, but
> I know you’ll let me know if they are not addressed.
> 
> Sarah
> ======
> 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14263 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:24pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)

 
  Rob Ep

Thanks for these comments, Rob.  I will extract 1 or 2 passages from your
post and intersperse my comments.

Rob:  "…the experience of deep peace free of conceptualization is a factor
in developing insight, because insight cannot be developed by cittas that
are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality".

Jon:  It is true, as you say, that "insight cannot be developed by cittas
that are clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality".  But then,
neither can samatha (or the jhanas) be developed by cittas that are
'clouded by ignorant conceptualizations of reality'.  

Both samatha and vipassana require panna for their development.  But there
is a difference in the quality of the panna required -- in the case of
samatha it is panna of the kind that knows the difference between kusala
and akusala mental states, and knows the value of the tranquillity that
comes with kusala.  In the case of vipassana, it is panna that knows the
true nature of the dhamma (be it a mental state or sense-door object)
presently appearing.

As to the ignorance or and wrong view that lies behind any 'ignorant
conceptualizations of reality', these factors are as much hindrances to
samatha as they are to vipassana.

As far as other kilesas are concerned, in neither case can the panna arise
contemporaneously with the akusala.  But this aside, there is an important
difference between samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana in the manner in
which the other kilesa constitute a hindrance to its development, and this
is tied in with the different nature of the 2 kinds of development.  At
high levels of samatha, further progress depends on being able to maintain
continuously a particular object or sign (kammatthana or nimitta).  Any
moment of akusala that disturbs this continuity therefore interrupts the
development.  

In the development of insight, however, there is no single or particular
dhamma that is the 'right' object for awareness or understanding.  A
moment of (just fallen away) akusala is as good an object for insight as
any another dhamma.  Indeed, all categories of dhammas, including the
kilesas, must sooner or later be seen as they truly are, otherwise the
idea of self will not be eradicated in relation to that particular
category of dhamma.

Of course, since the Buddha urged the development of all kinds of kusala,
samatha included, we should not neglect any opportunity for development of
any aspect of kusala.  Also, I acknowledge that the attainment of both
mundane jhana and enlightenment is a higher attainment than the attainment
of enlightenment alone.  Nevertheless, it is important to understand
clearly the distinction between the 2 as regards their characteristic,
function and goal.  There is a tendency to fudge the difference.

Well, I seem to have gone on at some length on this 1 point, so perhaps
I'll send this off and come back on any other points later.

Jon

============
 --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > 
...
Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is
not necessary.  To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree
with you  [!] that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening
factor.  My sense of the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free
of conceptualization are a factor in developing insight, because insight
cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant
conceptualizations of reality.  But i would like to see what the
Visudhimagga says.  So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come
up with.  

 I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state,
which  does not lead to insight or enlightenment.  So there must at the
very least be a balance.  The jhanas, i would think, being very deep
samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of
concentration might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without
insight.  There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practicing
the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval?

 Best, 
Robert Ep. 
============


 
 
14264 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am
Subject: Frankfood

 
  Dear Frank,
We cannot keep the five precepts until we are sotapanna. Only he has no more
conditions to transgress them. We may try to observe them, but when there
are specific conditions it is not sure what we shall do. I appreciate your
efforts to keep them as best as you can.
I am just curious what is frank food that a monk would not even take? I had
to laugh. Is it an ascetic practice or even more severe? Did you not relish
good food before? Ants have crawled over dust, don't eat dirty food. Food is
a medicine for the body. Take good care,
Nina.

 
14265 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am
Subject: Perfections, Ch 2, no. 9

 
  Perfections, Ch 2, no 9.

We read further on:

Thus he gives a gift- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing;
one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and sharing. In this way the
Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the first shackle to giving.

Here we see that we should investigate our citta when we are not inclined to
give. We read:

Again, when the object to be given is inferior or defective, the Great Being
reflects: ³Because I was not inclined to giving in the past, at present my
requisites are defective. Therefore: though it pains me, let me give
whatever I have as a gift even if the object is low and inferior. In that
way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving.² Thus
he gives whatever kind of gift he can- generous, open-handed, delighting in
relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and in
sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the
second shackle to giving.

When someone does not give, he may reflect on it; he may realize that he did
not accumulate generosity and that, from now on, he will try to accumulate
it. Or, he realizes that the things he could give are defective or scarce
because he did not give in the past, and that he from now on, even though he
has little, should give.
We read further on:

When a reluctance to give arises due to the excellence or beauty of the
object to be given, the Great Being admonishes himself: ²Good man, haven¹t
you made the aspiration for the supreme enlightenment, the loftiest and most
superior of all states? Well then, for the sake of enlightenment, it is
proper for you to give excellent and beautiful objects as gifts.² Thus he
gives what is excellent and beautiful- generous, open-handed, delighting in
relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and in
sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the
third shackle to giving.

Sometimes when a person regrets it to give something away, he should
consider what he really wants: does he want to keep that object or does he
want to realize the four noble Truths? Reflection in this way could be a
condition for the arising of generosity, and at that moment a shackle to
generosity is destroyed.
We read:

When the Great Being is giving a gift, and he sees the loss of the object
being given, he reflects thus: ³This is the nature of material possessions,
that they are subject to loss and to passing away. Moreover, it is because I
did not give such gifts in the past that my possessions are now depleted.
Let me then give whatever I have as a gift, whether it be limited or
abundant. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the
perfection of giving.² Thus he gives whatever he has as a gift- generous,
open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked,
delighting in giving and sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys,
shatters, and eradicates the fourth shackle to giving.

*****

 
14266 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Formal meditation and a Howard sutta

 
  Dear Howard, Jon and all, as promised, I would look at my Thai commentary,
especially no. VI, 50, Howard mentioned,  of which the title in my PTS
ediiton is: The senses (not: step by step). I render in short:
<Monks, when sense control is not, virtue perforce is destroyed in him who
has fallen away from sense-control; when virtue is not, right concentration
is perforce destroyed in him...; when concentration is not, true knowledge
and insight are perforce destroyed in him; when true knowledge and insight
are not, aversion and dispassion are perforce destroyed in him; when
aversion and dispassion are not, emancipated knowledge and insight are
perforce destroyed in him who has fallen away from aversion and
dispassion...>
Then comes a parable of a tree with branches and leaves fallen away, it will
not grow properly, and the same happens when sense control. etc. is not.
When sense-control exists, etc. the opposite is the case.
Now the Co:, it gives some word meanings. The title is: Indriya samvara
sila, of which there are many levels. When there is mindfulness of what
appears through the six doors (the indriyas or sense faculties) one is not
misled by the outer appearance (think of Maha Tissa), not by concepts, and
evil states do not arise, the doors are guarded by sati. This sutta
highlights indriya samvara sila as we shall see at the end.
The Co explains that the foundation of sila is destroyed (when there is no
sense control read: indriya samvara sila).
The Co goes over the different words but does not mention concentration
here.
< true knowledge and insight: yaatabhuuta ~naa.na dassana.m: this is tender
insight. aversion and dispassion: nibbidaa viraago which will now be
explained: vipassanaa which is a power is called nibbidaa, the eightfold
Path is viraago. vimutti~naa.nadassana.m (emancipated knowledge and
insight), this is here explained: vimutti (release) is  arahatta fruition
(phala), and ~naa.nadassana is here viewing knowledge, paachavekkhana
~naa.na (arising after the attainment of enlightenment).
the expression, there is upanissayasampanna (succesful with, endowed with a
foundation) means, sila has a foundation that is completed. In this sutta
The Buddha spoke about indriya samvara which is a means that supports the
observance of sila.>

My remarks: Nibbidaa, vipassana as power (balava vipassana), these are the
higher stages of insight: satipatthana can arise naturally, no matter where,
no matter in which circumstances and be aware of any object that presents
itself. Viraago: the eightfold Path: detachment. It leads to detachment. The
whole practice should be with detachment. A good reminder, I find.
Emancipated knowledge and insight here is of the person who has attained
arahatship. 
Sila is highlighted here: the guarding of the six doors leading up to
arahatship. I do not believe there has to be first the precepts, sila, then
concentration then vipassana. How could one observe the precepts perfectly
if one is not a sotapanna? It all has to go together from the beginning with
mindfulness of nama and rupa and thenthere should be development on and on.
The co. does not mention here concentration, this is mentioned in many other
suttas. We have discussed many times before about it that when sammaditthi
is developed also sammasamadhi develops. It depends on the individual to
what degree, whether he is able to develop jhaana and then be aware of the
jhana factors. I just like to add that specific jhana factors serve as
opposing specific hindrances and is this not the aim of samatha?  This
means, that someone who develops jhanain order to suppress the hindrances
must have a most refined knowledge of the jhanafactors, such as vitakka,
applied thinking, and vicara, sustained thinking. They are so close, usually
arising together, but still they have to be distinguished. At the second
stage of jhana there is vicara but no longer vitakka. Who is able to know
this fine distinction? Also, in order to be aware of the jhana factors, it
is necessary, as also Kom stated before, to have the masteries of jhana
(vasis): deciding when to enter jhana and when to emerge from it, etc. so
that there can be mindfulness of nama and rupa in between jhanas. If there
is no awareness of the jhana factors one does not develop vipassana,
awareness and understanding of any reality that appears. One would continue
to take jhana for my jhana.
As regards formal meditation and to what degree one wants to engage upon
this, everybody will do what he finds personally most suitable for himself,
it is conditioned. 
Another matter is to look at the texts and see whether this or that sutta
points out the benefit of  formal practice. This is what Jon is interested
at.   
I am glad to have had the opportunity to consider the Co to the sutta
pointed out by Howard.
Nina.  

op 29-06-2002 13:45 schreef Howard op Howard:
three references to suttas in the Anguttara
>>> Nikaya 
>>> which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of
>>> concentration, 
>>> and 3) formal meditation.
>>> The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as
>>> *including* 
>>> formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that).
>>> The three refererences are the following:
>>> 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View]
>>> 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma]
>>> 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step]
>>> These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha,
>>> An 
>>> Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera &
>>> Bhikkhu 
>>> Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0.
>>

 
14267 From: frank kuan   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:54am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters

 
  Hi Sukin,
--- sukinderpal  wrote:
> [snip]
> But ahimsa is not a
> matter of whether we 
> do step on a cockroach or not no!? Isn't it a
> question of intention?
> 
> Anticipating an enjoyable reply.

   Sorry to disappoint, but there's not much for me to
say since I agree with everything you said. You'll
have to settle for a short but agreeable reply.
Intention may be the most dominant factor in
determining kamma and ahimsa, but again right view can
not be overlooked or diminished. For example, say
someone who is driving a car (an inherently dangerous
activity requiring full mindfulness) who decides to
engage in animated conversation and mindful attention
on front seat passenger and makes frequent eye contact
(at the cost of being fully mindful of the road)
accidentally hits and kills some bicyclists on the
narrow shoulder of the road. Is it right intention? Is
it right view? Is it ahimsa?

-fk



 
14268 From: frank kuan   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:11am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood

 
  Hi Nina,
> I am just curious what is frank food that a monk
> would not even take? I had
> to laugh. Is it an ascetic practice or even more
> severe? Did you not relish
> good food before? Ants have crawled over dust, don't
> eat dirty food. Food is
> a medicine for the body. Take good care,

  Frank food is simple, nutritious, mostly raw
fruit/veggies and steamed veggies and sprouted
legumes/grains steamed. No oil, no sauce, a pinch of
salt and sometimes a pinch of curry to diversify
mineral and nutrient diversity, but not enough for
most people to actually realize there is any salt. My
diet is something that evolved over time to optimize
for nutrition and high performance yoga/meditation
(i.e. maximize energy, minimize sluggishness,
drowsiness, other undesirable side effects of rich
flavorful meals). These meals are delicious to me, but
not so stimulating that would encourage overeating.
Delicious taste is a natural biological resopnse to
guide us to satisfy nutrient requirements like sugar,
fat, minerals, etc. However, the refined, heavily
processed foods and extravagantly rich sauces has a
way of enticing desire and induce heavy overeating. By
eating simple, it's much easier to monitor the body's
feedback which naturally lets you know when it has
enough fat, sugar, salt, etc. 
  Some monks may actually appreciate what I eat, but
most monks, just as most people in the world would
find my typical meal an austere practice. Admittedly,
my food is not as flavorful and conventionally
delicious as typical food people eat, but the benefits
to energized physical and mental alertness is well
worth the trade off. And over time, the benefits are
so overwhelmingly clear that even the most delicious
dishes have very little allure to me anymore. Kind of
like how I still fully understand the gratification of
owning and driving an exotic sports car, but
understanding the dangers, I find  the peace and
relaxation of renunciation is far preferable.
  My experience when I do short repeats at a temple is
that it there is a tremendous difference in my
meditation from the diet in the temple
(delicious/spicy/oily) vs. my normal diet. Normal food
gives me cramps, gas, spiciness induced sharp pains in
body, sluggishness in my meditation if I eat a
sufficent amount to satisfy hunger. But if I don't eat
enough, to decrease the negative side effects, then I
slowly but systematically suffer loss of energy from
lack of good nutrition. 

-fk






 
14269 From: <> 
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:54am
Subject: ADL ch. 15 (4)

 
  http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm

Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 15 (4)

We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Sixes, Ch. VI, par. 2,
Phagguna) that the Buddha visited the venerable Phagguna who was very
ill. Phagguna had attained the second stage of enlightenment (the stage
of the sakadagami; he was not yet completely freed from the 'five lower
fetters';. We read in the sutta that the Buddha said to Phagguna: 

'I hope, Phagguna, you're bearing up, keeping going; that Your aches and
pains grow less, not more; that there are signs of their growing less,
not more?' 

'Lord, I can neither bear up nor keep going; my aches and pains grow
grievously more, not less; and there are signs of their growing more,
not less. 

Lord, the violent ache that racks my head is just as though some lusty
fellow chopped at it with a sharp-edged sword; Lord, I can neither bear
up nor keep going; my pains grow more, not less....' 

So the Exalted one instructed him, roused him, gladdened him and
comforted him with Dhamma-talk, then rose from his seat and departed. 

Now not long after the Exalted One's departure, the venerable Phagguna
died; and at the time of his death his faculties were completely
purified. 

Then went the venerable Ananda to the Exalted One, saluted him, and sat
down at one side. So seated, he said: 

'Lord, not long after the Exalted One left, the venerable Phagguna died;
and at that time his faculties were completely purifiedl 

'But why, Ananda, should not the faculties of the monk Phagguna have
been completely purified? The monk's mind, Ananda, had not been wholly
freed from the five lower fetters; but, when he heard that Dhamma
teaching, his mind was wholly freed. 

There are these six advantages, Ananda, in hearing Dhamma in time, in
testing its goodness in time. What six? 

Consider, Ananda, the monk whose mind is not wholly freed from the five
lower fetters, but, when dying, is able to see the Tathagata: the
Tathagata teaches him Dhamma, lovely in the beginning, lovely in the
middle, lovely in the end, its goodness, its significance; and makes
known the brahman-life(1), wholly fulfilled, perfectly pure. When he has
heard that Dhamma teaching, his mind is wholly freed from the five lower
fetters(2) . This Ananda, is the first advantage in hearing Dhamma in
time.

(1. In Pali: brahma-cariya: pure or holy life. This term is used for the
life of the monks and for the life of laypeople who observe eight
precepts. However it is also used with regard to all those who develop
the Eightfold Path. The goal of the 'brahma-cariya' is the eradication
of all defilements.) 

(2. Those who have attained the third stage of enlightenment, the stage
of the anagami are completely free from the five 'lower fetters.') 

Or... though not just able to see the Tathagata, sees his disciple, who
teaches him Dhamma... and makes known the brahman-life... Then is his
mind wholly freed from the five lower fetters. This, Ananda, is the
second advantage... 
Or.., though not able to see the Tathagata or his disciple, continues to
reflect in mind on Dhamma, as heard, as learnt, ponders on it, pores
over it. Then is his mind wholly freed from the five lower fetters.
This, Ananda, is the third advantage in testing its goodness in time...
' 

The same is said with regard to the monk who has attained the third
stage of enlightenment (the stage of the anagami), and who, has the
opportunity to hear dhamma and consider dhamma while listening, can
attain the stage of the arahat. 

Summary of functions (kicca) of citta: 

1. patisandhi (rebirth) 
2. bhavanga (life-continuum) 
3. avajjana (adverting) 
4. seeing 
5. hearing 
6. smelling 
7. tasting 
8. experiencing impressions through the body-sense 
9. sampaticchana (receiving) 
10. santirana (investigating) 
11. votthapana (determining) 
12. javana (impulsion, or 'running through the object') 
13. tadarammana (or tadalambana, registering) 
14. cuti (dying) 

Questions 

1. Which functions can be performed by the santirana-citta which is
akusala vipaka? 

2. Which functions can be performed by the santirana-citta which is
kusala vipska, accompanied by upekkha (indifferent feeling)? 

3. Which functions can be performed by santirana-citta which is kusala
vipaka, accompanied by somanassa?. 

4. By how many types of citta can the function of cuti (dying) be
performed? Which types?. 

5. Why can tadarammana-citta not arise in the rupa-brahma planes and in
the arupa-brahma planes? 

6. Can all types of vipakacittas experience an object through the six
doors?

 
14270 From: Sukinder   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:44pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters

 
  Dear Frank,

:-)).

Frank:
   Sorry to disappoint, but there's not much for me to
say since I agree with everything you said. You'll
have to settle for a short but agreeable reply.
Intention may be the most dominant factor in
determining kamma and ahimsa, but again right view can
not be overlooked or diminished. For example, say
someone who is driving a car (an inherently dangerous
activity requiring full mindfulness) who decides to
engage in animated conversation and mindful attention
on front seat passenger and makes frequent eye contact
(at the cost of being fully mindful of the road)
accidentally hits and kills some bicyclists on the
narrow shoulder of the road. Is it right intention? Is
it right view? Is it ahimsa?

Sukin:
Leaving out the 'animated' conversation. Can we say that a 
Sotapanna could be driving and causing the accident?!

Now I'm certain I'll be receiving a "Frank" reply :-).

Best wishes,
Sukin.



 


 
14271 From: Sarah   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:41pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Dan,

 --- onco111  wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> My goodness you are tough cookie,.... 
.....
Must be thanks to the gruelling training here that Dan’n Erik have put me
through;-)

OK, I’ll try to stick to the main points and snip out where we’re mostly
in agreement. (I note the ‘threat’ of hibernation ;-( )
.....
<BIG snip>
> --> Dan: The 'beginner of insight' is a beginner of insight. Of 
> course, we need to stress that insight is distinctly different from 
> purely intellectual understanding, different from thinking about 
> kusala/akusala, different from fruits of concentration. Insight 
> typically does not arise without tremendous prior support in this 
> lifetime from intellectual understanding, thinking about 
> kusala/akusala, fruits of concentration, I think. Is this what you 
> mean by 'beginning insight' is 'high level wisdom'? 
.....
From what you write here, it suggests that the ‘tremendous prior support’
is only from intellectual understanding for these first 3 vipassana nanas
to be realized and for the ‘beginner of insight’as we’re discussing in the
Vism. On the contrary, I understand there has to the development of
satipatthana, the repeated awareness and understanding of realities --of
namas and rupas--over and over and over again until the panna is strong
enough for the first vipassana nana to be realised. So in addition to all
the theory and details that need to be heard, there has to be a gradual
development of understanding to reach the first ‘base camp’.

I believe this ‘gradual training’ and combination of pariyatti (theory)
and pattipati (practice) is well supported in so many suttas, such as the
Kitagiri Sutta (MN 70, BB trans) where it speaks about deep knowledge
coming about by hearing, remembering, testing, checking out and so on:

“Here one who has faith (in a teacher) visits him;  when he visits him, he
pays respect to him;  when he pays respect to him, he gives ear;  one who
gives ear hears the Damma;  having heard the Dhamma, he momorises it;  he
examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised;  when he examines
the meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings;  when he
has gained a reflective acceptance of thsoe teachings, zeal springs up in
him;  when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will;  haivng applied his
will, he scrutinises;  having scrutinised, he srives;  resolutely
striving, he realises with the body the ultimate truth andf sees it by
penetrating it with wisdom.”<end quote>
*****
.....
>I can see how it 
> would make sense to talk about this way. Then, to understand 
> what 'beginning insight' means, the focus would be on the distinction 
> between 'wisdom' and 'insight'. Is that easier to understand that 
> than to understand that distinction between insight and intellectual 
> understanding + sila + fruits of concentraion is quite sharp? I lean 
> toward the latter, but I will abstain this time in favor of "we 
> should be open to both ways of thinking and talking about it," so I 
> will probably lose 1-0 in the vote. <n' eva domanassa, na wah-wah :) >
.....
As I say, it sounds like a jump between intellectual understanding ++ to
high levels of insight with no ‘groundwork’ as I read you.<I’ll leave you
to worry about the votes and the double negatives;-)>
.....
> Sarah: If there is an `apparent discontinuity of consciousness', I've 
> no idea what this is. Consciousness never 'discontinues' as I 
> understand.
> --> Dan: Right. That's why I threw in the word 'apparent'. I've 
> heard 'flash of insight,' 'like a lightning flash,' and such 
> described in the texts. The view of the world at a moment of a flash 
> of insight is quite different from the view at other times [hence the 
> description 'flash']. Consciousness putters along, first in this 
> direction, then in another, then it might spiral along a certain 
> pathway for awhile, and then *WHAM* -- it sees what it's really doing 
> for a moment; and then *BOINK* -- it's right back to viewing the 
> world in the normal way again, but it has lost its grasp on what it 
> had just a few short moments prior: "Huh?! Now where was I?" Followed 
> by a little period of "disoriented" spluttering along. That's what I 
> mean by an 'apparent discontinuity.'
.....
Hmm- did you read this in a comic strip?????   I’ll be glad to see your
reference before more comment;-) 
.....
  > Sarah: Finally eradicated yes, but gradually attenuated and removed 
> at these stages and different aspects of doubt about 1)n&r 2)kamma & 
> conditions 3) rise and fall of realities at these stages, to my 
> understanding. "When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly 
> knows and sees the sign. Hence `right seeing' is said. thus by 
> inference from that all formations are clearly seen as impermanent. 
> Herein doubt is abandoned....."X1X,26 
> --> Dan: Lots of things here to discuss...
> 1.'Doubt' vs. 'moha', and 'understanding concept' vs. 'understanding 
> paramatta-dhamma' are interesting distinctions. (a) As with the 
> sotapanna, who at times still has a moha sense of "I am" and a mana 
> sense of "I am," no longer has any doubt that "I am" is rubbish and 
> why it is so, so the beginner of insight still has a moha sense 
> of "nama is rupa" but no has any doubt that "nama is rupa" is rubbish 
> and just what that means. This moha that arises from moment to moment 
> is not eradicated until arahantship. 
.....
I’m a little lost in what you write here. At this stage, no doubt about
nama and rupa, but plenty of moha (ignorance) as you suggest. For example,
when there is no wise thinking or understanding, but just looking and
speaking and having aversion, there is moha.
.....
(b) The game of developing an 
> intellectual understanding is distinctly different from developing 
> experiential understanding at the paramattha level. One can memorize 
> many long lists of various doctrinal terms and talk intelligently 
> about each of them and about how they interact but have no bhavana-
> maya-panya (wisdom based on direct experience). Similarly, one can 
> have direct knowledge of realities and a developed wisdom but still 
> not understand the conceptual intricacies and subtleties involved in 
> the long lists of terms. [Do we need a skit here about an arahant 
> getting lost in all the Pali terminology?]  
.....
Actually, I look f/w to your skit....Sounds fun and Rob ep’s always
looking for material for his acting book. Maybe Erik will join in too;-))

Of course, it’s not a matter of terminology or memorised lists, but as
we’re probably all ‘neyya’ (guidable types, but only after hearing
detailed expositions of dhamma, wise reflection, associating with good
friends, asking qus etc) unless we’re ‘padaparama’ (the types that don’t
develop insight, even though they memorise and recite the teachings), I
believe we need to hear and understand a considerable amount of intricacy
and subtlety. For example, when we first hear about the dhamma or go on a
retreat, we may think there is some understanding of ‘anicca’. By hearing
more details about paramattha dhammas. as in the discussion with Howard on
rupas, we see that the details are more intricate than we thought. I just
thought of this example because I came across the reference to ‘tirana’
(tender <insight>) in a footnote at the start of the chapter (Vis XX n2),
while looking for another one:

“Tirana could also be rendered by ‘judging’.  On specific and general
characteristics Pm. says : ‘hardness, touching, etc, as the respective
characteristics of earth, contact etc, which are observable at all three
instants <of arising, presence and dissolutin>, are apprehended by their
being established  the respective individual essences of definite
materialness...” <end quote>
*****
I mention this to show that while someone may think they understand the
impermanence of realities, but there has to be very clear understanding of
namas and rupas without any confusion first. Panna has to grow slowly and
gradually and not by wishing to reach stages as you know.

There was another footnote and quote I came across from Pm about how it
must be known in theory first and inference from the texts and then
gradually with development the dhamma becomes known from direct
experience. I just can’t find it now.
.....
> 2. The paragraph that you cite sounds like stream-entry to me. Let's 
> do a little more of the paragraph: "...all formations are clearly 
> seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned. [...all formations 
> are clearly seen as painful. Herein all doubt is abandoned. <Filling 
> in the elision in Ñm's translation>] ...all states are clearly seen 
> as not-self. Herein doubt is abandoned." Indeed, it is, as clearly 
> expressed in the next two paragraphs: "'Correct knowledge and right 
> seeing [as described in the previous paragraph] and covercoming of 
> doubt -- these things are one in meaning and only the letter is 
> different'(Ps.ii,62f). When a man practicing insight has become 
> possessed of this knowledge, he has found comfort in the Buddhas' 
> dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, 
> he is called a 'lesser stream-enterer.'" An explicit statement about 
> the difference between the 'lesser stream-enterer' and the 
> regular 'stream-enterer' is not given until the last paragraph of the 
> next chapter: "The defining of the truth of suffering has been 
> effected with the defining of mentality-materiality in the 
> purification of view. The defining of the truth of origination has 
> been effected with the discerning of conditions in the purification 
> by overcoming doubt. The defining of the truth of the path has been 
> effected with the emphasizing of the right path in this purification 
> by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path. 
> So the defining of three truths has been effected firstly by means of 
> mundane knowledge only." [XX 130]
.....
Thank you for all the extra details. Any yet, this ‘lesser stream-enterer’
is the one with tender insight as I read it. These descriptions are all
from chapters XIX and XX. I think you begin to see why I refer to this 3rd
stage as a very, very highly developed level of wisdom now. Even though
there is lots of thinking, like now, there is no more wrong view of the
‘whole world’ or doubt about namas and rupas. There is also no doubt, as I
understand, about anatta. Realities including this degree of panna are
conditioned and not self. Any kind of kusala can only arise when the
conditions are right and not by a special effort or practice with the idea
of self who can ‘fix’ it or direct it as you’ve been reminding us all.

It becomes clear from your quote why saddha (confidence/faith)-- which is
often discussed -- in the Buddha’s Teachings, only develops and becomes
‘unshakeable’ as panna grows.
.....
> A few final nitpicks...
.....
Ok, who is the ‘tough cookie’, Dan??;-)
..... 
> Sarah: Primarily calm refers to passaddhi cetasika as you suggested 
> earlier. Like you suggest, though, all the 6 pairs accompany all all 
> sobhana (beautiful) cittas...
> --> Dan: Correction. When YOU use "calm", you are primarily referring 
> to passaddhi cetasika. There is no intrisic, necessary association 
> between 'calm' and 'passaddhi'. 
.....
I think we’ll have to add this to the samatha/jhana thread which I’m happy
to start on as soon as we are agreed here (no hurry as far as I’m
concerned -- I mean , look how long Jon and Rob Ep are taking to even
touch the shallow waves;-)). Actually, I was planning to introduce parts
from your other post this time, but this one has proved a full-time job in
its own right;-)...I’ll just potter along at my usual rate and if we have
breaks when you hibernate or I travel -I’ll be going away mid next-week
for 2wks--we can just continue later, unless anyone else joins in or takes
over meanwhile (as I always hope;-))
.....
>> P.S. No book! Like you say, "It must be harder still, perhaps for 
> those who are revered and highly regarded [to face the truth]." I 
> look at a book as a way to establish entrenched views in myself. It 
> becomes so much harder to develop wisdom when there is the need to 
> defend one's published views. Let's wait until I have something less 
> speculative to say (and until I'm free of the obligation to bring 
> home the bacon).
.....
Excellent answer;-)
......
Sarah
=====



 
14272 From: Sarah   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:47pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] introduction

 
  Dear Ruth,

Thanks for bringing it back on list.

 --- Ruth Klein  wrote: 
> No, I have the Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bohdi translation.  I've
> supplemented it with the translations from Access to Insight
> (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index.html) which are mostly Thanissaro
> Bhikkhu's translations.  The later are easier (lighter) to carry around!

Ok, the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation is the one I now use and which replaced
my PTS ones (I only have a very small space). I was just quoting from it.
It also has some useful commentary notes at the back. maybe you can use
the other one when you go out and re-read the Bodhi one when you get home.
I'm just impressed the local library has this.

There is so much material just in the first two suttas (Mulapariyaya and
Sabbasava Suttas). Let us know how you get on or if there's anything you
wish to discuss so we can act as a surrogate support group;-).

Thanks,
Sarah
======
> 
> Ruth
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>  


 
14273 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:11pm
Subject: Rebirth

 
  Dear Group,

I have been reading around the topic of rebirth recently, and wonder 
if anyone can point me in the direction of more Suttas where the 
Buddha explained and taught rebirth.  I have located those below, 
plus some teachings from Bhikkhu Bodhi - any additional references 
would be much appreciated.

metta,
Christine

Samyutta Nikaya XX.2
Nakhasikha Sutta 'The Tip of the Fingernail'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn20-002.html
"In the same way, monks, few are the beings reborn among human 
beings. Far more are those reborn elsewhere. Thus you should train 
yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train 
yourselves." 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html 

Scroll down to: 

XV. Anatamagga-samyutta -- The unimaginable beginnings of samsara and 
transmigration. 

Assu Sutta (SN XV.3) -- Tears. "Which is greater, the tears you have 
shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time...or the 
water in the four great oceans 
Danda Sutta (SN XV.9) -- The Stick. We bounce from one birth to the 
next, as a thrown stick bounces along the ground 
Duggata Sutta (SN XV.11) -- Fallen on Hard Times. When you encounter 
an unfortunate person, remember: you've been there, too. 
Sukhita Sutta (SN XV.12) -- Happy. When you encounter a fortunate 
person, remember: you've been there, too. 
Mata Sutta (SN XV.14-19) -- Mother. It's hard to meet someone who has 
not been, at some time in the distant past, your mother, father, son, 
daughter, sister, or brother. Samyutta Nikaya LVI.48
Chiggala Sutta 'The Hole'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html
"Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & 
happiness?' Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the 
break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good 
destination."

Samyutta Nikaya XLII.6
Paccha-bhumika Sutta '[Brahmans] of the Western Lands'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-006.html
""So it is with any man who refrains from taking life, from stealing, 
& from indulging in illicit sex; refrains from lying, from speaking 
divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; is not 
greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Even 
though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, 
praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the 
heart -- [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after 
death, reappear in a destitution, a bad destination, the lower 
realms, hell!' -- still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he 
would reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world." 

"Rebirth" by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha058.htm

'Dhamma without rebirth?'  by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay06.html

 
14274 From: onco111   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:10pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Sarah,
I've enjoyed my stay (as always), but I do need to hibernate. I'll be 
travelling to Montana for two weeks in two weeks (are there even any 
computers there?! Well, at least not where I'm going--cabin in the 
mountains), and there is a lot of work to be done before that. 

It seems like this thread has run its course, so I'll just add a very 
small set of closing comments.
________________________________
Sarah: On the contrary, I understand there has to the development of 
satipatthana, the repeated awareness and understanding of realities --
of namas and rupas--over and over and over again until the panna is 
strong enough for the first vipassana nana to be realised. So in 
addition to all the theory and details that need to be heard, there 
has to be a gradual development of understanding to reach the 
first `base camp'....

Dan: Well put. 

> > Sarah: If there is an `apparent discontinuity of consciousness', 
I've 
> > no idea what this is. Consciousness never 'discontinues' as I 
> > understand.
> > 
> > Dan: Right. That's why I threw in the word 'apparent'. I've 
> > heard 'flash of insight,' 'like a lightning flash,' and such 
> > described in the texts. The view of the world at a moment of a 
flash 
> > of insight is quite different from the view at other times [hence 
the 
> > description 'flash']. Consciousness putters along, first in this 
> > direction, then in another, then it might spiral along a certain 
> > pathway for awhile, and then *WHAM* -- it sees what it's really 
doing 
> > for a moment; and then *BOINK* -- it's right back to viewing the 
> > world in the normal way again, but it has lost its grasp on what 
it 
> > had just a few short moments prior: "Huh?! Now where was I?" 
Followed 
> > by a little period of "disoriented" spluttering along. That's 
what I 
> > mean by an 'apparent discontinuity.'
> .....
> Hmm- did you read this in a comic strip?????   I'll be glad to see 
your
> reference before more comment;-) 

Dan: Let's just say it's a Dan-ish paraphrase of something he might 
be able to find in the future.

One thing I'd like to put on the list of things to talk about when we 
both come back is the correspondence between words and reality -- how 
the words are such simplistic summaries of extraordinarily intricate 
phenomena that they are bound to miss the target and that there is 
considerable variability in how phenomena can be described. In other 
words, there may be several conceptualization schemes for the 
same 'idea' and none of them are perfect pointers to the reality 
[e.g. silabbataparamasa and sakayaditthi may just be two different 
words for the phenomenon]). This has reverberations and consequences 
throughout the study and practice of Dhamma. 

Another topic I'd like to put on the list is the relationship between 
intellectual understanding, satipatthana, and vipassana.

Of course, by the time we get back, all memory of what I am thinking 
vaguely about now may well have been totally erased. No matter.

Best wishes, Sarah. Have a wonderful trip.

Dan

 
14275 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:14pm
Subject: Sarah/ Your Last Post on Vedana and Rupa

 
  Hi, Sarah -

       Just a brief "thank you" for the conversation on vedana and rupa, and 
particularly for the last post of yours on the topic. What you had to say 
there, together with my mulling the matter over, has enormously clarified the 
subject for me to the point that I have a *much* clearer distinction in my 
mind between the two categories of  rupa and vedana. Aside from the 
terminological and definitional distinctions, which, by themselves, are 
useful and interesting but not of great importance, I actually have gained an 
experiential insight ('insight' in the plebian, ordinary sense ;-). What that 
is is the following: It had seemed to me that there is a category of 
experience called "pain" that is distinct from ordinary bodily sensation 
(such as pressure or sharpness or dull weight etc) on the one hand, and also 
distinct from the displeasure resulting from such bodily sensation. It had 
seemed to me that this alleged 3rd category was intermediate between these 
two, with the bodily sensation (rupa) resulting in pain (also rupa), and the 
pain typically resulting in displeasure (vedana). But, in response to your 
post, I engaged in introspection, and discovered that there is no separate, 
intermediate category of "pain". What there is is the initial rupic contact 
of pressure or sharpness or dull weight etc which conditions displeasure 
which, itself, is the actual physical pain. (Our mind, after the fact, blends 
the rupic contact with the displeasure into a separate percept which was not 
directly encountered as a "paramattha dhamma", but was mind-constructed.) The 
distinctions we make among various pains are due to the conditioning rupic 
contacts. The prick of a bee sting and the cramp in my leg are two different 
(groups of) rupas; the feeling of them as unpleasant, in each case, is 
physical pain; the apparent *difference* in those pains is not due to the 
differences in occurrences of the vedana of unpleasant feeling per se, but, 
rather, to the characteristics of the conditioning rupas. The mind *mixes* 
the two, the rupa and vedanic response - it conflates them.
       So - the bottom line here is that I have come to see my experience of 
rupa and vedana a bit more clearly, and I thank you for helping that along. 
For a person like me who is inclined to math, science, and philosophy, 
"seeing clearly" the way things are is pleasant, if not compulsive. ;-)) 
       Of course, as far as the real importance of "clear seeing" is 
concerned, that, I think, lies only in leading one to seeing the 
*impersonality* of all dhammas, their conditioned and tentative status, and 
their unworthiness of being clung to. Ultimately, it is the only the direct 
knowing of the tilakkhana which is freeing, not knowing the specific 
characteristics of specific dhammas. Knowing these specific characteristics 
is simply a means to the end of realizing the tilakkhana.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14276 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:27pm
Subject: Re: A Minor Point Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard

 
  Howard

I have a few thoughts about the use of 'meditation' in translations of the
suttas, following my earlier comment that the term does not have a precise
meaning in English.

--- Howard wrote: 
> Hi, Jon -
> 
> In a recent post you asked:
> 
> > Do the texts, for example, speak of
> > slow walking (with or without 'noting with focus the foot placements'
> etc)
> > as a practice, as a *means to* the arising of understanding?  How does
> > noting one's foot placements fit in with 'the all'/the khandhas that
> the
> > suttas say are to be known?  The texts are the ultimate touchstone for
> > right or wrong view.  We cannot safely rely on our own intuition or
> anyone
> > else's assurance on this.
> > 
> ==========================
>        I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts
> certainly 
> do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from
> the 
> Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking 
> meditation in the open air."
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

I think it's worth keeping in mind that 'meditation' is not a translation
of an exact equivalent term in the Pali.  As far as I have been able to
figure out, 'meditation' is used to translate a variety of Pali terms
including the following:

-  bhavana, as in samatha bhavana (rendered as 'concentration meditation')
and vipassana bhavana ('insight meditation')
-  jhaayatha, 'meditate'
-  cankamana, 'walking meditation'

It might be helpful to consider the original Pali terms so that we have a
better idea of the possible context when we meet the term 'meditation'.

Bhavana
The Pali term 'bhavana' seems to mean 'development'.  In the texts it is
used to refer particularly to the development of wholesome acts that are
accomplished wholly through the mind door, i.e., they are acts that do not
include any expression through speech or body.  To my understanding, this
development requires the presence of panna (understanding).  Thus, bhavana
means wholesome acts performed through the mind-door and accompanied by
panna.  In the teachings these are classed as either samatha or vipassana.

Now, while the higher levels of samatha may involve periods of sitting
(interspersed with 'cankamana' - walking back and forth), there is no
*necessary* association between samatha bhavana and 'sitting'.  And in the
case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the
seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts.

If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as something
that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting for
the purpose.  Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries this
implication for many readers.

Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am
misinterpreted.  I am of course not overlooking the fact that there were
many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while
'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting'
attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not 'sitting'
-- listening to the Buddha's discourses).  And among the many monks in the
Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most (but
not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'.  (BTW, I wonder
if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work out
the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…).

Jhaayatha
This is a term that refers collectively to the 2 kinds of bhavana just
discussed, so my comments on the use of meditation here would be much the
same.  

However, jhaayatha is perhaps considered as having an additional claim to
association with 'meditation' in that it sometimes appears in connection
with references to the roots of trees and empty places, as in 'There are
these roots of trees, these empty huts.  Meditate, bhikkhus, do not delay
or else you will regret it later.  This is our instruction to you.' (M
19).  In this context does jhaayatha refer to formal seated meditation?

To my reading of the texts, the reference to empty places and roots of
trees is a reference to a whole way of living, implying in fact not just
the monk's life but a particular 'higher' form of the homeless life -- not
living in a 'town' monastery, having no contact with lay people outside
the alms round, not taking up any duties or interests such as study or
instruction, being solitary by nature, and so forth.  It's a lifestyle
that not every monk (perhaps only a small minority) would be suited to.

For those who are ready for this form of the homeless life, to whom it
comes naturally, it is purer even than the 'regular' monk's life, due to
the more highly developed kusala required to live the life properly.  Yes,
the time of day after the almsround and (single) daily meal is spent
walking back and forth and sitting (as is most of the night), but this is
as much a reflection of the highly developed kusala of the monk who is
able to live this life as it is a means for the further development of
that monk's kusala.  

In urging his followers spend time in empty places and at the roots of
trees, the Buddha was encouraging monks to lead an even purer life than
they were already living.  To my reading, though, it is not a case of the
Buddha saying that a person who leads this lifestyle will have more, or
more highly developed, kusala (and even less is it a case of him saying,
if you want to have more kusala, then lead this lifestyle/spend more time
sitting).

My two cents on 'meditation' as found in the texts!

Jon



 
14277 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:37pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)

 
  Rob Ep

Let me continue with 1 or 2 other points from your post.

Rob:  "…samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not
lead to insight or enlightenment.  The jhanas, being very deep samadhic
states which are difficult to attain and require special types of
concentration, might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without
insight."

Jon:  Hmmm …  Not sure about this.  Samatha is the tranquillity that
accompanies wholesome (kusala) moments only, and the jhanas are the
highest form of samatha.  In other words, jhana is the outcome of samatha
properly developed and maintained to its fullest.  So samatha could never
lead to a drug-like state.  Perhaps you are thinking of concentration. 
Concentration can be either kusala or akusala, and may indeed lead to
unwholesome concentrated states.

The terminology can be a little confusing here.  'Concentration' can have
different meanings, depending on the context.  It might be worth
mentioning one or two examples.  'Concentration' can refer, for example,
to:
--Samatha/the jhanas. Samatha is kusala only.  Its literal meaning is
tranquillity or calm, which is a reference to the calmness that comes with
kusala.  Because in highly developed samatha the concentration factor is
also highly developed, it is sometimes referred to as samadhi (e.g., in
the Visuddhimagga)
--A period of (apparently) continuous attention to the same object.  This
is the conventional meaning of concentration in the context of mental
development.  Can be kusala or akusala.  If akusala, could result in a
'drug-like' state.
--The mental factor of concentration (samadhi cetasika), one of the 7
mental factors that accompanies every moment of consciousness (the
'universals').
--The fact that a citta and its cetasikas all take the same object and
that object only.  This is the function of samadhi cetasika.

Rob:  "There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practising the
jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval?'

Jon:  The practice of samatha and the attainment of the jhanas was
obviously very widespread among ascetics of all persuasions in the time of
the Buddha.  It was I believe a phenomenon that existed quite
independently of the Buddha's encouragement of it to his followers.

It was approved and encouraged by the Buddha, I suppose, because it is a
very high level of kusala and, as such, a support for the development of
panna/vipassana.  While samatha is not something that only monks can have
or develop, its development to the degree of jhana, and the attainments
that come with its mastery, is a proper 'resort' (gocara') for monks in
particular rather than lay-people.

Jon

============
 --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > 
...
Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is
not necessary.  To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree
with you  [!] that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening
factor.  My sense of the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free
of conceptualization are a factor in developing insight, because insight
cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant
conceptualizations of reality.  But i would like to see what the
Visudhimagga says.  So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come
up with.  

 I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state,
which  does not lead to insight or enlightenment.  So there must at the
very least be a balance.  The jhanas, i would think, being very deep
samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of
concentration might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without
insight.  There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practicing
the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval?

 Best, 
Robert Ep. 
============




 
14278 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:06pm
Subject: Re: Rebirth

 
  Dear Christine,
There are so many that you will spend a long time collecting them 
all.
The 545 Jataka are one group. Here is a couple more:

http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm
Anguttara Nikaya
CHAPTER XX
Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER
1) Blessings
BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with 
the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration 
with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What 
four ?
Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the 
Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, 
carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies 
bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, 
there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. 
Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being 
quickly achieves distinction therein

http://www.vipassana.info/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm
Majjhima Nikaaya I. 
2. 9. Dvedhaavitakkasutta.m 
I recollected the manifold previous births such as one birth, two 
births, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a 
hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand births, innumerable forward 
cycles of births, innumerable backward cycles of births and 
innumerable forward and backward cycles of births. There I was of 
such name, clan, disposition, supports, experiencing such pleasant 
and unpleasant feelings, and with such a life span. Disappearing 
from there was born there, There too I was of such name, clan, 
disposition, supports, experiencing such pleasant and unpleasant 
feelings, and with such .a life span. Disappearing from there is 
born here.Thus I recollect the manifold previous births..This is the 
first knowledge that I realized in the first watch of the night and 
knowledge arose and darkness got dispelled when I abode diligent for 
dispelling. 
best
Robert


 "christine_forsyth"  wrote:
> Dear Group,
> 
> I have been reading around the topic of rebirth recently, and 
wonder 
> if anyone can point me in the direction of more Suttas where the 
> Buddha explained and taught rebirth.  I have located those below, 
> plus some teachings from Bhikkhu Bodhi - any additional references 
> would be much appreciated.
> 
> metta,
> Christine
> /news/essay06.html

 
 
14264 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am
Subject: Frankfood

 
  Dear Frank,
We cannot keep the five precepts until we are sotapanna. Only he has no more
conditions to transgress them. We may try to observe them, but when there
are specific conditions it is not sure what we shall do. I appreciate your
efforts to keep them as best as you can.
I am just curious what is frank food that a monk would not even take? I had
to laugh. Is it an ascetic practice or even more severe? Did you not relish
good food before? Ants have crawled over dust, don't eat dirty food. Food is
a medicine for the body. Take good care,
Nina.

 
14265 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am
Subject: Perfections, Ch 2, no. 9

 
  Perfections, Ch 2, no 9.

We read further on:

Thus he gives a gift- generous, open-handed, delighting in relinquishing;
one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and sharing. In this way the
Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the first shackle to giving.

Here we see that we should investigate our citta when we are not inclined to
give. We read:

Again, when the object to be given is inferior or defective, the Great Being
reflects: ³Because I was not inclined to giving in the past, at present my
requisites are defective. Therefore: though it pains me, let me give
whatever I have as a gift even if the object is low and inferior. In that
way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving.² Thus
he gives whatever kind of gift he can- generous, open-handed, delighting in
relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and in
sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the
second shackle to giving.

When someone does not give, he may reflect on it; he may realize that he did
not accumulate generosity and that, from now on, he will try to accumulate
it. Or, he realizes that the things he could give are defective or scarce
because he did not give in the past, and that he from now on, even though he
has little, should give.
We read further on:

When a reluctance to give arises due to the excellence or beauty of the
object to be given, the Great Being admonishes himself: ²Good man, haven¹t
you made the aspiration for the supreme enlightenment, the loftiest and most
superior of all states? Well then, for the sake of enlightenment, it is
proper for you to give excellent and beautiful objects as gifts.² Thus he
gives what is excellent and beautiful- generous, open-handed, delighting in
relinquishing, one who gives when asked, delighting in giving and in
sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys, shatters, and eradicates the
third shackle to giving.

Sometimes when a person regrets it to give something away, he should
consider what he really wants: does he want to keep that object or does he
want to realize the four noble Truths? Reflection in this way could be a
condition for the arising of generosity, and at that moment a shackle to
generosity is destroyed.
We read:

When the Great Being is giving a gift, and he sees the loss of the object
being given, he reflects thus: ³This is the nature of material possessions,
that they are subject to loss and to passing away. Moreover, it is because I
did not give such gifts in the past that my possessions are now depleted.
Let me then give whatever I have as a gift, whether it be limited or
abundant. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the
perfection of giving.² Thus he gives whatever he has as a gift- generous,
open-handed, delighting in relinquishing, one who gives when asked,
delighting in giving and sharing. In this way the Great Being destroys,
shatters, and eradicates the fourth shackle to giving.

*****

 
14266 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:01am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Formal meditation and a Howard sutta

 
  Dear Howard, Jon and all, as promised, I would look at my Thai commentary,
especially no. VI, 50, Howard mentioned,  of which the title in my PTS
ediiton is: The senses (not: step by step). I render in short:
<Monks, when sense control is not, virtue perforce is destroyed in him who
has fallen away from sense-control; when virtue is not, right concentration
is perforce destroyed in him...; when concentration is not, true knowledge
and insight are perforce destroyed in him; when true knowledge and insight
are not, aversion and dispassion are perforce destroyed in him; when
aversion and dispassion are not, emancipated knowledge and insight are
perforce destroyed in him who has fallen away from aversion and
dispassion...>
Then comes a parable of a tree with branches and leaves fallen away, it will
not grow properly, and the same happens when sense control. etc. is not.
When sense-control exists, etc. the opposite is the case.
Now the Co:, it gives some word meanings. The title is: Indriya samvara
sila, of which there are many levels. When there is mindfulness of what
appears through the six doors (the indriyas or sense faculties) one is not
misled by the outer appearance (think of Maha Tissa), not by concepts, and
evil states do not arise, the doors are guarded by sati. This sutta
highlights indriya samvara sila as we shall see at the end.
The Co explains that the foundation of sila is destroyed (when there is no
sense control read: indriya samvara sila).
The Co goes over the different words but does not mention concentration
here.
< true knowledge and insight: yaatabhuuta ~naa.na dassana.m: this is tender
insight. aversion and dispassion: nibbidaa viraago which will now be
explained: vipassanaa which is a power is called nibbidaa, the eightfold
Path is viraago. vimutti~naa.nadassana.m (emancipated knowledge and
insight), this is here explained: vimutti (release) is  arahatta fruition
(phala), and ~naa.nadassana is here viewing knowledge, paachavekkhana
~naa.na (arising after the attainment of enlightenment).
the expression, there is upanissayasampanna (succesful with, endowed with a
foundation) means, sila has a foundation that is completed. In this sutta
The Buddha spoke about indriya samvara which is a means that supports the
observance of sila.>

My remarks: Nibbidaa, vipassana as power (balava vipassana), these are the
higher stages of insight: satipatthana can arise naturally, no matter where,
no matter in which circumstances and be aware of any object that presents
itself. Viraago: the eightfold Path: detachment. It leads to detachment. The
whole practice should be with detachment. A good reminder, I find.
Emancipated knowledge and insight here is of the person who has attained
arahatship. 
Sila is highlighted here: the guarding of the six doors leading up to
arahatship. I do not believe there has to be first the precepts, sila, then
concentration then vipassana. How could one observe the precepts perfectly
if one is not a sotapanna? It all has to go together from the beginning with
mindfulness of nama and rupa and thenthere should be development on and on.
The co. does not mention here concentration, this is mentioned in many other
suttas. We have discussed many times before about it that when sammaditthi
is developed also sammasamadhi develops. It depends on the individual to
what degree, whether he is able to develop jhaana and then be aware of the
jhana factors. I just like to add that specific jhana factors serve as
opposing specific hindrances and is this not the aim of samatha?  This
means, that someone who develops jhanain order to suppress the hindrances
must have a most refined knowledge of the jhanafactors, such as vitakka,
applied thinking, and vicara, sustained thinking. They are so close, usually
arising together, but still they have to be distinguished. At the second
stage of jhana there is vicara but no longer vitakka. Who is able to know
this fine distinction? Also, in order to be aware of the jhana factors, it
is necessary, as also Kom stated before, to have the masteries of jhana
(vasis): deciding when to enter jhana and when to emerge from it, etc. so
that there can be mindfulness of nama and rupa in between jhanas. If there
is no awareness of the jhana factors one does not develop vipassana,
awareness and understanding of any reality that appears. One would continue
to take jhana for my jhana.
As regards formal meditation and to what degree one wants to engage upon
this, everybody will do what he finds personally most suitable for himself,
it is conditioned. 
Another matter is to look at the texts and see whether this or that sutta
points out the benefit of  formal practice. This is what Jon is interested
at.   
I am glad to have had the opportunity to consider the Co to the sutta
pointed out by Howard.
Nina.  

op 29-06-2002 13:45 schreef Howard op Howard:
three references to suttas in the Anguttara
>>> Nikaya 
>>> which relate to 1) the approach of study-only, 2) the role of
>>> concentration, 
>>> and 3) formal meditation.
>>> The brief comment is that I understand satipatthana as
>>> *including* 
>>> formal meditation practice (but certainly far from only that).
>>> The three refererences are the following:
>>> 1) V, 25 [The Five Helpers of Right View]
>>> 2) V, 73 & 74 [Living by the Dhamma]
>>> 3) VI, 50 [Step by Step]
>>> These are all taken from The Numerical Dicourses of the Buddha,
>>> An 
>>> Anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya, Nyanaponika Thera &
>>> Bhikkhu 
>>> Bodhi, 1999 (BPS), ISBN 0-7425-0405-0.
>>

 
14267 From: frank kuan   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:54am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters

 
  Hi Sukin,
--- sukinderpal  wrote:
> [snip]
> But ahimsa is not a
> matter of whether we 
> do step on a cockroach or not no!? Isn't it a
> question of intention?
> 
> Anticipating an enjoyable reply.

   Sorry to disappoint, but there's not much for me to
say since I agree with everything you said. You'll
have to settle for a short but agreeable reply.
Intention may be the most dominant factor in
determining kamma and ahimsa, but again right view can
not be overlooked or diminished. For example, say
someone who is driving a car (an inherently dangerous
activity requiring full mindfulness) who decides to
engage in animated conversation and mindful attention
on front seat passenger and makes frequent eye contact
(at the cost of being fully mindful of the road)
accidentally hits and kills some bicyclists on the
narrow shoulder of the road. Is it right intention? Is
it right view? Is it ahimsa?

-fk



 
14268 From: frank kuan   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:11am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood

 
  Hi Nina,
> I am just curious what is frank food that a monk
> would not even take? I had
> to laugh. Is it an ascetic practice or even more
> severe? Did you not relish
> good food before? Ants have crawled over dust, don't
> eat dirty food. Food is
> a medicine for the body. Take good care,

  Frank food is simple, nutritious, mostly raw
fruit/veggies and steamed veggies and sprouted
legumes/grains steamed. No oil, no sauce, a pinch of
salt and sometimes a pinch of curry to diversify
mineral and nutrient diversity, but not enough for
most people to actually realize there is any salt. My
diet is something that evolved over time to optimize
for nutrition and high performance yoga/meditation
(i.e. maximize energy, minimize sluggishness,
drowsiness, other undesirable side effects of rich
flavorful meals). These meals are delicious to me, but
not so stimulating that would encourage overeating.
Delicious taste is a natural biological resopnse to
guide us to satisfy nutrient requirements like sugar,
fat, minerals, etc. However, the refined, heavily
processed foods and extravagantly rich sauces has a
way of enticing desire and induce heavy overeating. By
eating simple, it's much easier to monitor the body's
feedback which naturally lets you know when it has
enough fat, sugar, salt, etc. 
  Some monks may actually appreciate what I eat, but
most monks, just as most people in the world would
find my typical meal an austere practice. Admittedly,
my food is not as flavorful and conventionally
delicious as typical food people eat, but the benefits
to energized physical and mental alertness is well
worth the trade off. And over time, the benefits are
so overwhelmingly clear that even the most delicious
dishes have very little allure to me anymore. Kind of
like how I still fully understand the gratification of
owning and driving an exotic sports car, but
understanding the dangers, I find  the peace and
relaxation of renunciation is far preferable.
  My experience when I do short repeats at a temple is
that it there is a tremendous difference in my
meditation from the diet in the temple
(delicious/spicy/oily) vs. my normal diet. Normal food
gives me cramps, gas, spiciness induced sharp pains in
body, sluggishness in my meditation if I eat a
sufficent amount to satisfy hunger. But if I don't eat
enough, to decrease the negative side effects, then I
slowly but systematically suffer loss of energy from
lack of good nutrition. 

-fk






 
14269 From: <> 
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:54am
Subject: ADL ch. 15 (4)

 
  http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm

Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 15 (4)

We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Sixes, Ch. VI, par. 2,
Phagguna) that the Buddha visited the venerable Phagguna who was very
ill. Phagguna had attained the second stage of enlightenment (the stage
of the sakadagami; he was not yet completely freed from the 'five lower
fetters';. We read in the sutta that the Buddha said to Phagguna: 

'I hope, Phagguna, you're bearing up, keeping going; that Your aches and
pains grow less, not more; that there are signs of their growing less,
not more?' 

'Lord, I can neither bear up nor keep going; my aches and pains grow
grievously more, not less; and there are signs of their growing more,
not less. 

Lord, the violent ache that racks my head is just as though some lusty
fellow chopped at it with a sharp-edged sword; Lord, I can neither bear
up nor keep going; my pains grow more, not less....' 

So the Exalted one instructed him, roused him, gladdened him and
comforted him with Dhamma-talk, then rose from his seat and departed. 

Now not long after the Exalted One's departure, the venerable Phagguna
died; and at the time of his death his faculties were completely
purified. 

Then went the venerable Ananda to the Exalted One, saluted him, and sat
down at one side. So seated, he said: 

'Lord, not long after the Exalted One left, the venerable Phagguna died;
and at that time his faculties were completely purifiedl 

'But why, Ananda, should not the faculties of the monk Phagguna have
been completely purified? The monk's mind, Ananda, had not been wholly
freed from the five lower fetters; but, when he heard that Dhamma
teaching, his mind was wholly freed. 

There are these six advantages, Ananda, in hearing Dhamma in time, in
testing its goodness in time. What six? 

Consider, Ananda, the monk whose mind is not wholly freed from the five
lower fetters, but, when dying, is able to see the Tathagata: the
Tathagata teaches him Dhamma, lovely in the beginning, lovely in the
middle, lovely in the end, its goodness, its significance; and makes
known the brahman-life(1), wholly fulfilled, perfectly pure. When he has
heard that Dhamma teaching, his mind is wholly freed from the five lower
fetters(2) . This Ananda, is the first advantage in hearing Dhamma in
time.

(1. In Pali: brahma-cariya: pure or holy life. This term is used for the
life of the monks and for the life of laypeople who observe eight
precepts. However it is also used with regard to all those who develop
the Eightfold Path. The goal of the 'brahma-cariya' is the eradication
of all defilements.) 

(2. Those who have attained the third stage of enlightenment, the stage
of the anagami are completely free from the five 'lower fetters.') 

Or... though not just able to see the Tathagata, sees his disciple, who
teaches him Dhamma... and makes known the brahman-life... Then is his
mind wholly freed from the five lower fetters. This, Ananda, is the
second advantage... 
Or.., though not able to see the Tathagata or his disciple, continues to
reflect in mind on Dhamma, as heard, as learnt, ponders on it, pores
over it. Then is his mind wholly freed from the five lower fetters.
This, Ananda, is the third advantage in testing its goodness in time...
' 

The same is said with regard to the monk who has attained the third
stage of enlightenment (the stage of the anagami), and who, has the
opportunity to hear dhamma and consider dhamma while listening, can
attain the stage of the arahat. 

Summary of functions (kicca) of citta: 

1. patisandhi (rebirth) 
2. bhavanga (life-continuum) 
3. avajjana (adverting) 
4. seeing 
5. hearing 
6. smelling 
7. tasting 
8. experiencing impressions through the body-sense 
9. sampaticchana (receiving) 
10. santirana (investigating) 
11. votthapana (determining) 
12. javana (impulsion, or 'running through the object') 
13. tadarammana (or tadalambana, registering) 
14. cuti (dying) 

Questions 

1. Which functions can be performed by the santirana-citta which is
akusala vipaka? 

2. Which functions can be performed by the santirana-citta which is
kusala vipska, accompanied by upekkha (indifferent feeling)? 

3. Which functions can be performed by santirana-citta which is kusala
vipaka, accompanied by somanassa?. 

4. By how many types of citta can the function of cuti (dying) be
performed? Which types?. 

5. Why can tadarammana-citta not arise in the rupa-brahma planes and in
the arupa-brahma planes? 

6. Can all types of vipakacittas experience an object through the six
doors?

 
14270 From: Sukinder   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 4:44pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters

 
  Dear Frank,

:-)).

Frank:
   Sorry to disappoint, but there's not much for me to
say since I agree with everything you said. You'll
have to settle for a short but agreeable reply.
Intention may be the most dominant factor in
determining kamma and ahimsa, but again right view can
not be overlooked or diminished. For example, say
someone who is driving a car (an inherently dangerous
activity requiring full mindfulness) who decides to
engage in animated conversation and mindful attention
on front seat passenger and makes frequent eye contact
(at the cost of being fully mindful of the road)
accidentally hits and kills some bicyclists on the
narrow shoulder of the road. Is it right intention? Is
it right view? Is it ahimsa?

Sukin:
Leaving out the 'animated' conversation. Can we say that a 
Sotapanna could be driving and causing the accident?!

Now I'm certain I'll be receiving a "Frank" reply :-).

Best wishes,
Sukin.



 


 
14271 From: Sarah   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:41pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Dan,

 --- onco111  wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> My goodness you are tough cookie,.... 
.....
Must be thanks to the gruelling training here that Dan’n Erik have put me
through;-)

OK, I’ll try to stick to the main points and snip out where we’re mostly
in agreement. (I note the ‘threat’ of hibernation ;-( )
.....
<BIG snip>
> --> Dan: The 'beginner of insight' is a beginner of insight. Of 
> course, we need to stress that insight is distinctly different from 
> purely intellectual understanding, different from thinking about 
> kusala/akusala, different from fruits of concentration. Insight 
> typically does not arise without tremendous prior support in this 
> lifetime from intellectual understanding, thinking about 
> kusala/akusala, fruits of concentration, I think. Is this what you 
> mean by 'beginning insight' is 'high level wisdom'? 
.....
From what you write here, it suggests that the ‘tremendous prior support’
is only from intellectual understanding for these first 3 vipassana nanas
to be realized and for the ‘beginner of insight’as we’re discussing in the
Vism. On the contrary, I understand there has to the development of
satipatthana, the repeated awareness and understanding of realities --of
namas and rupas--over and over and over again until the panna is strong
enough for the first vipassana nana to be realised. So in addition to all
the theory and details that need to be heard, there has to be a gradual
development of understanding to reach the first ‘base camp’.

I believe this ‘gradual training’ and combination of pariyatti (theory)
and pattipati (practice) is well supported in so many suttas, such as the
Kitagiri Sutta (MN 70, BB trans) where it speaks about deep knowledge
coming about by hearing, remembering, testing, checking out and so on:

“Here one who has faith (in a teacher) visits him;  when he visits him, he
pays respect to him;  when he pays respect to him, he gives ear;  one who
gives ear hears the Damma;  having heard the Dhamma, he momorises it;  he
examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised;  when he examines
the meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings;  when he
has gained a reflective acceptance of thsoe teachings, zeal springs up in
him;  when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will;  haivng applied his
will, he scrutinises;  having scrutinised, he srives;  resolutely
striving, he realises with the body the ultimate truth andf sees it by
penetrating it with wisdom.”<end quote>
*****
.....
>I can see how it 
> would make sense to talk about this way. Then, to understand 
> what 'beginning insight' means, the focus would be on the distinction 
> between 'wisdom' and 'insight'. Is that easier to understand that 
> than to understand that distinction between insight and intellectual 
> understanding + sila + fruits of concentraion is quite sharp? I lean 
> toward the latter, but I will abstain this time in favor of "we 
> should be open to both ways of thinking and talking about it," so I 
> will probably lose 1-0 in the vote. <n' eva domanassa, na wah-wah :) >
.....
As I say, it sounds like a jump between intellectual understanding ++ to
high levels of insight with no ‘groundwork’ as I read you.<I’ll leave you
to worry about the votes and the double negatives;-)>
.....
> Sarah: If there is an `apparent discontinuity of consciousness', I've 
> no idea what this is. Consciousness never 'discontinues' as I 
> understand.
> --> Dan: Right. That's why I threw in the word 'apparent'. I've 
> heard 'flash of insight,' 'like a lightning flash,' and such 
> described in the texts. The view of the world at a moment of a flash 
> of insight is quite different from the view at other times [hence the 
> description 'flash']. Consciousness putters along, first in this 
> direction, then in another, then it might spiral along a certain 
> pathway for awhile, and then *WHAM* -- it sees what it's really doing 
> for a moment; and then *BOINK* -- it's right back to viewing the 
> world in the normal way again, but it has lost its grasp on what it 
> had just a few short moments prior: "Huh?! Now where was I?" Followed 
> by a little period of "disoriented" spluttering along. That's what I 
> mean by an 'apparent discontinuity.'
.....
Hmm- did you read this in a comic strip?????   I’ll be glad to see your
reference before more comment;-) 
.....
  > Sarah: Finally eradicated yes, but gradually attenuated and removed 
> at these stages and different aspects of doubt about 1)n&r 2)kamma & 
> conditions 3) rise and fall of realities at these stages, to my 
> understanding. "When he brings to mind as impermanent, he correctly 
> knows and sees the sign. Hence `right seeing' is said. thus by 
> inference from that all formations are clearly seen as impermanent. 
> Herein doubt is abandoned....."X1X,26 
> --> Dan: Lots of things here to discuss...
> 1.'Doubt' vs. 'moha', and 'understanding concept' vs. 'understanding 
> paramatta-dhamma' are interesting distinctions. (a) As with the 
> sotapanna, who at times still has a moha sense of "I am" and a mana 
> sense of "I am," no longer has any doubt that "I am" is rubbish and 
> why it is so, so the beginner of insight still has a moha sense 
> of "nama is rupa" but no has any doubt that "nama is rupa" is rubbish 
> and just what that means. This moha that arises from moment to moment 
> is not eradicated until arahantship. 
.....
I’m a little lost in what you write here. At this stage, no doubt about
nama and rupa, but plenty of moha (ignorance) as you suggest. For example,
when there is no wise thinking or understanding, but just looking and
speaking and having aversion, there is moha.
.....
(b) The game of developing an 
> intellectual understanding is distinctly different from developing 
> experiential understanding at the paramattha level. One can memorize 
> many long lists of various doctrinal terms and talk intelligently 
> about each of them and about how they interact but have no bhavana-
> maya-panya (wisdom based on direct experience). Similarly, one can 
> have direct knowledge of realities and a developed wisdom but still 
> not understand the conceptual intricacies and subtleties involved in 
> the long lists of terms. [Do we need a skit here about an arahant 
> getting lost in all the Pali terminology?]  
.....
Actually, I look f/w to your skit....Sounds fun and Rob ep’s always
looking for material for his acting book. Maybe Erik will join in too;-))

Of course, it’s not a matter of terminology or memorised lists, but as
we’re probably all ‘neyya’ (guidable types, but only after hearing
detailed expositions of dhamma, wise reflection, associating with good
friends, asking qus etc) unless we’re ‘padaparama’ (the types that don’t
develop insight, even though they memorise and recite the teachings), I
believe we need to hear and understand a considerable amount of intricacy
and subtlety. For example, when we first hear about the dhamma or go on a
retreat, we may think there is some understanding of ‘anicca’. By hearing
more details about paramattha dhammas. as in the discussion with Howard on
rupas, we see that the details are more intricate than we thought. I just
thought of this example because I came across the reference to ‘tirana’
(tender <insight>) in a footnote at the start of the chapter (Vis XX n2),
while looking for another one:

“Tirana could also be rendered by ‘judging’.  On specific and general
characteristics Pm. says : ‘hardness, touching, etc, as the respective
characteristics of earth, contact etc, which are observable at all three
instants <of arising, presence and dissolutin>, are apprehended by their
being established  the respective individual essences of definite
materialness...” <end quote>
*****
I mention this to show that while someone may think they understand the
impermanence of realities, but there has to be very clear understanding of
namas and rupas without any confusion first. Panna has to grow slowly and
gradually and not by wishing to reach stages as you know.

There was another footnote and quote I came across from Pm about how it
must be known in theory first and inference from the texts and then
gradually with development the dhamma becomes known from direct
experience. I just can’t find it now.
.....
> 2. The paragraph that you cite sounds like stream-entry to me. Let's 
> do a little more of the paragraph: "...all formations are clearly 
> seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned. [...all formations 
> are clearly seen as painful. Herein all doubt is abandoned. <Filling 
> in the elision in Ñm's translation>] ...all states are clearly seen 
> as not-self. Herein doubt is abandoned." Indeed, it is, as clearly 
> expressed in the next two paragraphs: "'Correct knowledge and right 
> seeing [as described in the previous paragraph] and covercoming of 
> doubt -- these things are one in meaning and only the letter is 
> different'(Ps.ii,62f). When a man practicing insight has become 
> possessed of this knowledge, he has found comfort in the Buddhas' 
> dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, 
> he is called a 'lesser stream-enterer.'" An explicit statement about 
> the difference between the 'lesser stream-enterer' and the 
> regular 'stream-enterer' is not given until the last paragraph of the 
> next chapter: "The defining of the truth of suffering has been 
> effected with the defining of mentality-materiality in the 
> purification of view. The defining of the truth of origination has 
> been effected with the discerning of conditions in the purification 
> by overcoming doubt. The defining of the truth of the path has been 
> effected with the emphasizing of the right path in this purification 
> by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path. 
> So the defining of three truths has been effected firstly by means of 
> mundane knowledge only." [XX 130]
.....
Thank you for all the extra details. Any yet, this ‘lesser stream-enterer’
is the one with tender insight as I read it. These descriptions are all
from chapters XIX and XX. I think you begin to see why I refer to this 3rd
stage as a very, very highly developed level of wisdom now. Even though
there is lots of thinking, like now, there is no more wrong view of the
‘whole world’ or doubt about namas and rupas. There is also no doubt, as I
understand, about anatta. Realities including this degree of panna are
conditioned and not self. Any kind of kusala can only arise when the
conditions are right and not by a special effort or practice with the idea
of self who can ‘fix’ it or direct it as you’ve been reminding us all.

It becomes clear from your quote why saddha (confidence/faith)-- which is
often discussed -- in the Buddha’s Teachings, only develops and becomes
‘unshakeable’ as panna grows.
.....
> A few final nitpicks...
.....
Ok, who is the ‘tough cookie’, Dan??;-)
..... 
> Sarah: Primarily calm refers to passaddhi cetasika as you suggested 
> earlier. Like you suggest, though, all the 6 pairs accompany all all 
> sobhana (beautiful) cittas...
> --> Dan: Correction. When YOU use "calm", you are primarily referring 
> to passaddhi cetasika. There is no intrisic, necessary association 
> between 'calm' and 'passaddhi'. 
.....
I think we’ll have to add this to the samatha/jhana thread which I’m happy
to start on as soon as we are agreed here (no hurry as far as I’m
concerned -- I mean , look how long Jon and Rob Ep are taking to even
touch the shallow waves;-)). Actually, I was planning to introduce parts
from your other post this time, but this one has proved a full-time job in
its own right;-)...I’ll just potter along at my usual rate and if we have
breaks when you hibernate or I travel -I’ll be going away mid next-week
for 2wks--we can just continue later, unless anyone else joins in or takes
over meanwhile (as I always hope;-))
.....
>> P.S. No book! Like you say, "It must be harder still, perhaps for 
> those who are revered and highly regarded [to face the truth]." I 
> look at a book as a way to establish entrenched views in myself. It 
> becomes so much harder to develop wisdom when there is the need to 
> defend one's published views. Let's wait until I have something less 
> speculative to say (and until I'm free of the obligation to bring 
> home the bacon).
.....
Excellent answer;-)
......
Sarah
=====



 
14272 From: Sarah   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:47pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] introduction

 
  Dear Ruth,

Thanks for bringing it back on list.

 --- Ruth Klein  wrote: 
> No, I have the Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bohdi translation.  I've
> supplemented it with the translations from Access to Insight
> (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index.html) which are mostly Thanissaro
> Bhikkhu's translations.  The later are easier (lighter) to carry around!

Ok, the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation is the one I now use and which replaced
my PTS ones (I only have a very small space). I was just quoting from it.
It also has some useful commentary notes at the back. maybe you can use
the other one when you go out and re-read the Bodhi one when you get home.
I'm just impressed the local library has this.

There is so much material just in the first two suttas (Mulapariyaya and
Sabbasava Suttas). Let us know how you get on or if there's anything you
wish to discuss so we can act as a surrogate support group;-).

Thanks,
Sarah
======


 
14273 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 6:11pm
Subject: Rebirth

 
  Dear Group,

I have been reading around the topic of rebirth recently, and wonder 
if anyone can point me in the direction of more Suttas where the 
Buddha explained and taught rebirth.  I have located those below, 
plus some teachings from Bhikkhu Bodhi - any additional references 
would be much appreciated.

metta,
Christine

Samyutta Nikaya XX.2
Nakhasikha Sutta 'The Tip of the Fingernail'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn20-002.html
"In the same way, monks, few are the beings reborn among human 
beings. Far more are those reborn elsewhere. Thus you should train 
yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train 
yourselves." 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html 

Scroll down to: 

XV. Anatamagga-samyutta -- The unimaginable beginnings of samsara and 
transmigration. 

Assu Sutta (SN XV.3) -- Tears. "Which is greater, the tears you have 
shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time...or the 
water in the four great oceans 
Danda Sutta (SN XV.9) -- The Stick. We bounce from one birth to the 
next, as a thrown stick bounces along the ground 
Duggata Sutta (SN XV.11) -- Fallen on Hard Times. When you encounter 
an unfortunate person, remember: you've been there, too. 
Sukhita Sutta (SN XV.12) -- Happy. When you encounter a fortunate 
person, remember: you've been there, too. 
Mata Sutta (SN XV.14-19) -- Mother. It's hard to meet someone who has 
not been, at some time in the distant past, your mother, father, son, 
daughter, sister, or brother. Samyutta Nikaya LVI.48
Chiggala Sutta 'The Hole'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html
"Or what, having been done by me, will be for my long-term welfare & 
happiness?' Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the 
break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in a good 
destination."

Samyutta Nikaya XLII.6
Paccha-bhumika Sutta '[Brahmans] of the Western Lands'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-006.html
""So it is with any man who refrains from taking life, from stealing, 
& from indulging in illicit sex; refrains from lying, from speaking 
divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; is not 
greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Even 
though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, 
praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the 
heart -- [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after 
death, reappear in a destitution, a bad destination, the lower 
realms, hell!' -- still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he 
would reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world." 

"Rebirth" by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha058.htm

'Dhamma without rebirth?'  by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay06.html

 
14274 From: onco111   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 7:10pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Sarah,
I've enjoyed my stay (as always), but I do need to hibernate. I'll be 
travelling to Montana for two weeks in two weeks (are there even any 
computers there?! Well, at least not where I'm going--cabin in the 
mountains), and there is a lot of work to be done before that. 

It seems like this thread has run its course, so I'll just add a very 
small set of closing comments.
________________________________
Sarah: On the contrary, I understand there has to the development of 
satipatthana, the repeated awareness and understanding of realities --
of namas and rupas--over and over and over again until the panna is 
strong enough for the first vipassana nana to be realised. So in 
addition to all the theory and details that need to be heard, there 
has to be a gradual development of understanding to reach the 
first `base camp'....

Dan: Well put. 

> > Sarah: If there is an `apparent discontinuity of consciousness', 
I've 
> > no idea what this is. Consciousness never 'discontinues' as I 
> > understand.
> > 
> > Dan: Right. That's why I threw in the word 'apparent'. I've 
> > heard 'flash of insight,' 'like a lightning flash,' and such 
> > described in the texts. The view of the world at a moment of a 
flash 
> > of insight is quite different from the view at other times [hence 
the 
> > description 'flash']. Consciousness putters along, first in this 
> > direction, then in another, then it might spiral along a certain 
> > pathway for awhile, and then *WHAM* -- it sees what it's really 
doing 
> > for a moment; and then *BOINK* -- it's right back to viewing the 
> > world in the normal way again, but it has lost its grasp on what 
it 
> > had just a few short moments prior: "Huh?! Now where was I?" 
Followed 
> > by a little period of "disoriented" spluttering along. That's 
what I 
> > mean by an 'apparent discontinuity.'
> .....
> Hmm- did you read this in a comic strip?????   I'll be glad to see 
your
> reference before more comment;-) 

Dan: Let's just say it's a Dan-ish paraphrase of something he might 
be able to find in the future.

One thing I'd like to put on the list of things to talk about when we 
both come back is the correspondence between words and reality -- how 
the words are such simplistic summaries of extraordinarily intricate 
phenomena that they are bound to miss the target and that there is 
considerable variability in how phenomena can be described. In other 
words, there may be several conceptualization schemes for the 
same 'idea' and none of them are perfect pointers to the reality 
[e.g. silabbataparamasa and sakayaditthi may just be two different 
words for the phenomenon]). This has reverberations and consequences 
throughout the study and practice of Dhamma. 

Another topic I'd like to put on the list is the relationship between 
intellectual understanding, satipatthana, and vipassana.

Of course, by the time we get back, all memory of what I am thinking 
vaguely about now may well have been totally erased. No matter.

Best wishes, Sarah. Have a wonderful trip.

Dan

 
14275 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:14pm
Subject: Sarah/ Your Last Post on Vedana and Rupa

 
  Hi, Sarah -

       Just a brief "thank you" for the conversation on vedana and rupa, and 
particularly for the last post of yours on the topic. What you had to say 
there, together with my mulling the matter over, has enormously clarified the 
subject for me to the point that I have a *much* clearer distinction in my 
mind between the two categories of  rupa and vedana. Aside from the 
terminological and definitional distinctions, which, by themselves, are 
useful and interesting but not of great importance, I actually have gained an 
experiential insight ('insight' in the plebian, ordinary sense ;-). What that 
is is the following: It had seemed to me that there is a category of 
experience called "pain" that is distinct from ordinary bodily sensation 
(such as pressure or sharpness or dull weight etc) on the one hand, and also 
distinct from the displeasure resulting from such bodily sensation. It had 
seemed to me that this alleged 3rd category was intermediate between these 
two, with the bodily sensation (rupa) resulting in pain (also rupa), and the 
pain typically resulting in displeasure (vedana). But, in response to your 
post, I engaged in introspection, and discovered that there is no separate, 
intermediate category of "pain". What there is is the initial rupic contact 
of pressure or sharpness or dull weight etc which conditions displeasure 
which, itself, is the actual physical pain. (Our mind, after the fact, blends 
the rupic contact with the displeasure into a separate percept which was not 
directly encountered as a "paramattha dhamma", but was mind-constructed.) The 
distinctions we make among various pains are due to the conditioning rupic 
contacts. The prick of a bee sting and the cramp in my leg are two different 
(groups of) rupas; the feeling of them as unpleasant, in each case, is 
physical pain; the apparent *difference* in those pains is not due to the 
differences in occurrences of the vedana of unpleasant feeling per se, but, 
rather, to the characteristics of the conditioning rupas. The mind *mixes* 
the two, the rupa and vedanic response - it conflates them.
       So - the bottom line here is that I have come to see my experience of 
rupa and vedana a bit more clearly, and I thank you for helping that along. 
For a person like me who is inclined to math, science, and philosophy, 
"seeing clearly" the way things are is pleasant, if not compulsive. ;-)) 
       Of course, as far as the real importance of "clear seeing" is 
concerned, that, I think, lies only in leading one to seeing the 
*impersonality* of all dhammas, their conditioned and tentative status, and 
their unworthiness of being clung to. Ultimately, it is the only the direct 
knowing of the tilakkhana which is freeing, not knowing the specific 
characteristics of specific dhammas. Knowing these specific characteristics 
is simply a means to the end of realizing the tilakkhana.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14276 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:27pm
Subject: Re: A Minor Point Re: [dsg] Re: Lutes, flutes and falling over - Howard

 
  Howard

I have a few thoughts about the use of 'meditation' in translations of the
suttas, following my earlier comment that the term does not have a precise
meaning in English.

--- Howard wrote: 
> Hi, Jon -
> 
> In a recent post you asked:
> 
> > Do the texts, for example, speak of
> > slow walking (with or without 'noting with focus the foot placements'
> etc)
> > as a practice, as a *means to* the arising of understanding?  How does
> > noting one's foot placements fit in with 'the all'/the khandhas that
> the
> > suttas say are to be known?  The texts are the ultimate touchstone for
> > right or wrong view.  We cannot safely rely on our own intuition or
> anyone
> > else's assurance on this.
> > 
> ==========================
>        I don't know about the speed or the details, but the texts
> certainly 
> do talk of walking meditation. For example there is the following from
> the 
> Bahiya Sutta: "At that time, a large number of monks were doing walking 
> meditation in the open air."
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

I think it's worth keeping in mind that 'meditation' is not a translation
of an exact equivalent term in the Pali.  As far as I have been able to
figure out, 'meditation' is used to translate a variety of Pali terms
including the following:

-  bhavana, as in samatha bhavana (rendered as 'concentration meditation')
and vipassana bhavana ('insight meditation')
-  jhaayatha, 'meditate'
-  cankamana, 'walking meditation'

It might be helpful to consider the original Pali terms so that we have a
better idea of the possible context when we meet the term 'meditation'.

Bhavana
The Pali term 'bhavana' seems to mean 'development'.  In the texts it is
used to refer particularly to the development of wholesome acts that are
accomplished wholly through the mind door, i.e., they are acts that do not
include any expression through speech or body.  To my understanding, this
development requires the presence of panna (understanding).  Thus, bhavana
means wholesome acts performed through the mind-door and accompanied by
panna.  In the teachings these are classed as either samatha or vipassana.

Now, while the higher levels of samatha may involve periods of sitting
(interspersed with 'cankamana' - walking back and forth), there is no
*necessary* association between samatha bhavana and 'sitting'.  And in the
case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the
seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts.

If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as something
that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting for
the purpose.  Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries this
implication for many readers.

Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am
misinterpreted.  I am of course not overlooking the fact that there were
many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while
'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting'
attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not 'sitting'
-- listening to the Buddha's discourses).  And among the many monks in the
Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most (but
not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'.  (BTW, I wonder
if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work out
the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…).

Jhaayatha
This is a term that refers collectively to the 2 kinds of bhavana just
discussed, so my comments on the use of meditation here would be much the
same.  

However, jhaayatha is perhaps considered as having an additional claim to
association with 'meditation' in that it sometimes appears in connection
with references to the roots of trees and empty places, as in 'There are
these roots of trees, these empty huts.  Meditate, bhikkhus, do not delay
or else you will regret it later.  This is our instruction to you.' (M
19).  In this context does jhaayatha refer to formal seated meditation?

To my reading of the texts, the reference to empty places and roots of
trees is a reference to a whole way of living, implying in fact not just
the monk's life but a particular 'higher' form of the homeless life -- not
living in a 'town' monastery, having no contact with lay people outside
the alms round, not taking up any duties or interests such as study or
instruction, being solitary by nature, and so forth.  It's a lifestyle
that not every monk (perhaps only a small minority) would be suited to.

For those who are ready for this form of the homeless life, to whom it
comes naturally, it is purer even than the 'regular' monk's life, due to
the more highly developed kusala required to live the life properly.  Yes,
the time of day after the almsround and (single) daily meal is spent
walking back and forth and sitting (as is most of the night), but this is
as much a reflection of the highly developed kusala of the monk who is
able to live this life as it is a means for the further development of
that monk's kusala.  

In urging his followers spend time in empty places and at the roots of
trees, the Buddha was encouraging monks to lead an even purer life than
they were already living.  To my reading, though, it is not a case of the
Buddha saying that a person who leads this lifestyle will have more, or
more highly developed, kusala (and even less is it a case of him saying,
if you want to have more kusala, then lead this lifestyle/spend more time
sitting).

My two cents on 'meditation' as found in the texts!

Jon



 
14277 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 9:37pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Concentration - Rob Ep (II)

 
  Rob Ep

Let me continue with 1 or 2 other points from your post.

Rob:  "…samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state, which does not
lead to insight or enlightenment.  The jhanas, being very deep samadhic
states which are difficult to attain and require special types of
concentration, might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without
insight."

Jon:  Hmmm …  Not sure about this.  Samatha is the tranquillity that
accompanies wholesome (kusala) moments only, and the jhanas are the
highest form of samatha.  In other words, jhana is the outcome of samatha
properly developed and maintained to its fullest.  So samatha could never
lead to a drug-like state.  Perhaps you are thinking of concentration. 
Concentration can be either kusala or akusala, and may indeed lead to
unwholesome concentrated states.

The terminology can be a little confusing here.  'Concentration' can have
different meanings, depending on the context.  It might be worth
mentioning one or two examples.  'Concentration' can refer, for example,
to:
--Samatha/the jhanas. Samatha is kusala only.  Its literal meaning is
tranquillity or calm, which is a reference to the calmness that comes with
kusala.  Because in highly developed samatha the concentration factor is
also highly developed, it is sometimes referred to as samadhi (e.g., in
the Visuddhimagga)
--A period of (apparently) continuous attention to the same object.  This
is the conventional meaning of concentration in the context of mental
development.  Can be kusala or akusala.  If akusala, could result in a
'drug-like' state.
--The mental factor of concentration (samadhi cetasika), one of the 7
mental factors that accompanies every moment of consciousness (the
'universals').
--The fact that a citta and its cetasikas all take the same object and
that object only.  This is the function of samadhi cetasika.

Rob:  "There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practising the
jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval?'

Jon:  The practice of samatha and the attainment of the jhanas was
obviously very widespread among ascetics of all persuasions in the time of
the Buddha.  It was I believe a phenomenon that existed quite
independently of the Buddha's encouragement of it to his followers.

It was approved and encouraged by the Buddha, I suppose, because it is a
very high level of kusala and, as such, a support for the development of
panna/vipassana.  While samatha is not something that only monks can have
or develop, its development to the degree of jhana, and the attainments
that come with its mastery, is a proper 'resort' (gocara') for monks in
particular rather than lay-people.

Jon

============
 --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > 
...
Well, perhaps the samatha has a relationship to vipassana, perhaps it is
not necessary.  To me the connection makes some sense, although I agree
with you  [!] that it is the insight that is ultimately the enlightening
factor.  My sense of the jhanas is that the experience of deep peace free
of conceptualization are a factor in developing insight, because insight
cannot be developed by cittas that are clouded by ignorant
conceptualizations of reality.  But i would like to see what the
Visudhimagga says.  So I'm looking forward to whatever excerpts you come
up with.  

 I also understand that samatha by itself can lead to a drug-like state,
which  does not lead to insight or enlightenment.  So there must at the
very least be a balance.  The jhanas, i would think, being very deep
samadhic states which are difficult to attain and require special types of
concentration might be less prone to a kind of dull bliss-state without
insight.  There must be some reason why so many aspirants were practicing
the jhanas in the time of the Buddha, apparently with his approval?

 Best, 
Robert Ep. 
============




 
14278 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 10:06pm
Subject: Re: Rebirth

 
  Dear Christine,
There are so many that you will spend a long time collecting them 
all.
The 545 Jataka are one group. Here is a couple more:

http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm
Anguttara Nikaya
CHAPTER XX
Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER
1) Blessings
BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with 
the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration 
with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What 
four ?
Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the 
Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, 
carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies 
bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, 
there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. 
Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being 
quickly achieves distinction therein

http://www.vipassana.info/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm
Majjhima Nikaaya I. 
2. 9. Dvedhaavitakkasutta.m 
I recollected the manifold previous births such as one birth, two 
births, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a 
hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand births, innumerable forward 
cycles of births, innumerable backward cycles of births and 
innumerable forward and backward cycles of births. There I was of 
such name, clan, disposition, supports, experiencing such pleasant 
and unpleasant feelings, and with such a life span. Disappearing 
from there was born there, There too I was of such name, clan, 
disposition, supports, experiencing such pleasant and unpleasant 
feelings, and with such .a life span. Disappearing from there is 
born here.Thus I recollect the manifold previous births..This is the 
first knowledge that I realized in the first watch of the night and 
knowledge arose and darkness got dispelled when I abode diligent for 
dispelling. 
best
Robert


 "christine_forsyth"  wrote:
> Dear Group,
> 
> I have been reading around the topic of rebirth recently, and 
wonder 
> if anyone can point me in the direction of more Suttas where the 
> Buddha explained and taught rebirth.  I have located those below, 
> plus some teachings from Bhikkhu Bodhi - any additional references 
> would be much appreciated.
> 
> metta,
> Christine
> /news/essay06.html

 
 
14279 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:00am
Subject: problems in daily life, to Ruth.

 
  Dear Ruth,
Welcome here in dsg. You know, we also talk here about daily problems. You
wrote about expectations that parents have of their children, how oppressive
this can be. There is possessiveness, my child, it has to be like me. This
is different from pure metta, when one only thinks of the benefit of someone
else. Pure metta comes over differently, I find, one can sense it, even an
animal knows.  My father (101 years) is very possessive about his dog, and
the dog senses the difference between possessiveness and metta. He feels it
when you just think of his benefit, when we, for example, take him to the
vet. But we are also attached to the dog. I have found that Sarah and
Chistine have many helpful suggestions applying the Dhamma in daily life. I
asked Sarah about mindfulness of death, saying, that I need this, and she
wrote to me in a most helpful way. Also writing about your problems will
help you to feel less lonely, I am sure. As Sarah said, a sense of humor
will help, it is funny too how parents expect things, it can make us laugh.
We make thorough studies here but we also have fun. I often laugh aloud on
my own when reading a post. No need to feel lonely here, but I can
sympathize with you. Take good care,
Nina.

 
14280 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:00am
Subject: characteristics

 
  Dear Howard, Sarah and all,
I followed with interest the discussions on feelings, stingy, tingling,
prickly or whatever. The injection needle, pressure (during Howard's
sickness?), musquito bites. When I was with A. Sujin I talked about mosquito
bites and was only thinking of painful feeling, but she asked: is there no
heat? We may be thinking so much of all these definitions that we forget
what can be directly experienced, without defining. Then it may well be that
a reality, a dhamma, appears,(if we are not *trying* to find out) different
from what we were thinking about.
I listened to a tape yesterday, made in India and heard Jon ask: what is the
difference between sabhava dhamma (dhamma with its own nature, bhava) and a
characteristic, lakkhana. A. Sujin answered:
<No difference, because the dhamma which appears has a characteristic.
Everything that is real has its specific characteristic, it must be nama or
rupa. We name things as bread or chair, but there are only two kinds of
characteristics, nama and rupa. Rupa does not see, hear or feel, nama
feels.>

I remembered here a post of Howard, where he so carefully explained that
there is no difference between a reality and its characteristic, as I just
heard when listening to the tape.
I think it is important to know the difference between a rupa impinging on
the bodysense and feeling. Feeling is nama, it experiences, it feels. We do
not have to think: it experiences, it does not experience, most important is
to realize these two characteristics as different, and this is a gradual
process, it takes a long time. When our eyes are open there is seeing,
visible object, thinking of what we see. When we close our eyes, there is
hearing, sound, thinking. There may also be bodily impressions: rupas and
namas. We do not have to name them or define them. But it can be gradually
learnt that feeling, no matter what kind, is not rupa. Is this not a
phenomenological enterprise, as Howard would say?
The tape continued:
<Why do we see people? Because there is nama that sees and thinking follows.
Rupa cannot know this. If we do not know the truth of these two realities
there will be the idea of self and we shall continue being in the cycle of
birth and death. Dhamma is real, it has no owner. There are two
characteristics of dhamma: nama and rupa. >
We think that we know what direct awareness is, and when we listen again to
the Dhamma we realize that we did not understand yet. Ups and downs.
The boundary line between thinking and awareness may not seem clear. When we
read in the Visuddhimagga about the stages of tender insight and we read
about knowledge by deduction, it seems theory. I used to think that. But A.
Sujin explained that it is all about insight, not theoretical understanding.
The first stage: distinguishing between the characteristic of nama and of
rupa is not theoretical at all. I asked A. Sujin in India:
<N: Thinking and development seem to be so close and then doubt arises.
A. Sujin: Doubt is not yet eradicated, it must arise. All that arises must
have a condition for its arising. When it arises we know that it is not yet
eradicated. 
What appears seems to last because of remembrance. The arising and falling
away of realities is so fast, we cannot catch it. The main thing now is:
what characteristic appears now, it should be known more clearly as only a
nama or a rupa, not self.>
This makes me think of the discussions on trying to slow things down,
because we are not in time. But no need to worry about that, panna's only
task is realizing the characteristic that appears. Th tape continues:
<Q: what is considering realities?
A. Sujin: it is not on the theoretical level, because then there would still
be an idea of self who considers. Sati sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa)
"studies" for a moment so that there is gradually more understanding. Study
here means: there is a beginning of correct understanding of a
characteristic that appears. There are three levels of study: paryatti
(theoretical understanding), patipatti (practice) and pativedha (direct
realization of the truth).>

The eightfold Path leads to detachment, there should be detachment from a
self who tries to find out about realities. Don't we build up obstructions
to sati, trying to ensure favorable conditions for sati, instead of letting
sati do its task: just being aware of whatever appears now? Hundreds of
times we think of bread or chair, my feeling, my body, but once in a while
when we do not try to have sati or do not even expect it, just a
characteristic may appear through one doorway at a time. Then realities are
not taken together as a whole, self, the world. It is a most difficult
subject and I find I need to consider it a lot and discuss it. I all mounts
to knowing when there is sati and when thinking of a concept or idea.
Best wishes from Nina.

 
14281 From: frank kuan   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 1:33am
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: ahimsa and coexisting with critters

 
  Hi Sukin,

> 
> Sukin:
> Leaving out the 'animated' conversation. Can we say
> that a 
> Sotapanna could be driving and causing the
> accident?!
> 
> Now I'm certain I'll be receiving a "Frank" reply
> :-).

   There certainly are no certainties, especially when
predicting Frank behavior, but as luck (kamma?)would
have it once again I reply. I feel like a sports
superstar now, referring to myself in third person.
Now all I need is a dhamma possee, new rims for my
mercedes, a gold chain around my neck with the letters
"dsg", and I'll be dhamma pimpin in style. 
   I recall the sotopanna who was known for drinking
(alcoholic beverages) and boorish behavior. The other
monks and lay people couldn't believe it when the
Buddha proclaimed him a stream-enterer. If that
particular guy is driving the car, or even just a
horse and chariot, I would definitely NOT want to be
riding my bike on the shoulder when he's zooming by.
My confidence in scripture only goes so far. 

-fk
 

  


 
14282 From: Ruth Klein   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:15am
Subject: RE: [dsg] problems in daily life, to Ruth.

 
  Hello Nina,

Ok, so I don't have much knowledge of scripture, but I sure do have first
hand knowledge of life's little problems!  I often don't realize (until much
much later) that others have the SAME problems; and may have already found
ways of working them out.

The biggest issue I'm dealing with right now is the pressure to marry and
start a family.  Most of the time I am content with my life the way it is.
I spent three years examining "Who am I?" and have become comfortable with
where I am.  However, I don't think that that question is skillful anymore;
and I'm not sure what question I should be asking.  In addition, though I am
happy whith where I am in life, I very easily get caught up in the idea of
finding some 'special' person with whom to share my life.  Quite often I
can't tell if it's truely my own desire, or a societal/parental pressure.  I
feel most lonely when I'm trying to separate what is real from what is
conditioned thought and my mind is not often quiet enough to find out.

Has anyone else found a way to deal with this?  Ironically this feeling
usually overwhelms me 20-30 minutes AFTER a formal meditiation session, and
I've suffered more because I cannot stop the rest of my life to sit and
explore more thoroughly.  It gets burried 'til the next time.

Namaste,
Ruth

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nina van Gorkom [mailto:Nina]
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 1:01 PM
> Subject: [dsg] problems in daily life, to Ruth.
>
>
> Dear Ruth,
> Welcome here in dsg. You know, we also talk here about daily problems. You
> wrote about expectations that parents have of their children, how
> oppressive
> this can be. There is possessiveness, my child, it has to be like me. This
> is different from pure metta, when one only thinks of the benefit
> of someone
> else. Pure metta comes over differently, I find, one can sense it, even an
> animal knows.  My father (101 years) is very possessive about his dog, and
> the dog senses the difference between possessiveness and metta.
> He feels it
> when you just think of his benefit, when we, for example, take him to the
> vet. But we are also attached to the dog. I have found that Sarah and
> Chistine have many helpful suggestions applying the Dhamma in
> daily life. I
> asked Sarah about mindfulness of death, saying, that I need this, and she
> wrote to me in a most helpful way. Also writing about your problems will
> help you to feel less lonely, I am sure. As Sarah said, a sense of humor
> will help, it is funny too how parents expect things, it can make
> us laugh.
> We make thorough studies here but we also have fun. I often laugh aloud on
> my own when reading a post. No need to feel lonely here, but I can
> sympathize with you. Take good care,
> Nina.


 
14283 From: <> 
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:02am
Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics

 
  Hi all, now you have me thinking about feeling and rupa. So I thought I
would throw my 2 cents in.

First, what we are talking about is body consciousness, a nama. Body
consciousness is different from the other physical senses in that it can
experience pleasure and pain while seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting
can only experience neutral feeling. 

Secondly, there is a difference between touching (nama) and hardness
(rupa); just as there is a difference between light and seeing.

Thirdly, mind consciousness can experience pleasant, painful, and
neutral feeling. 

So there can be a painful body feeling followed by a painful mental
feeling, or not. 

One other thing of interest, the pleasantness of a pleasant taste is
actually a pleasant mental feeling.

Also, 5-door feelings are results of kamma and mind door feelings
motivate kamma.

have a nice day, Larry

 
14284 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] problems in daily life, to Ruth.

 
  ---  "Ruth Klein"  wrote:
> I feel most lonely when I'm trying to separate what is real from 
what is conditioned thought and my mind is not often quiet enough to 
find out. Has anyone else found a way to deal with this?  Ironically 
this feeling usually overwhelms me 20-30 minutes AFTER a formal 
meditiation session, and
> I've suffered more because I cannot stop the rest of my life to 
sit and
> explore more thoroughly.  It gets burried 'til the next time.
> amaste,
> Ruth
>___________
Dear Ruth,
I think gradually we learn to see - by means of the Dhamma- that 
every moment is the same: just conditioned phenomenena. When there 
is any clinging to place or time or formal meditation then there is 
no understanding of the moments that are happening right now; rather 
there is wishing that things could be other than they are. 

But nama(mentality) and rupa(materiality) arise whether one is calm 
or when one is agitated - they have to be known no matter they are 
pleasant or unpleasant. By learning the Dhamma one comes to know 
that all dhammas are not-self, alien, dukkha (even the most 
pleasant) and that knowledge brings with it unlimited courage. Then, 
I think the many trials in life, can be opportunities for insight 
and other beneficial qualities to develop.
This is an old post you might like to read:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/837
Also this book is very good
http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm
metta
Robert

 
14285 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:53pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] problems in daily life, to Ruth.

 
  Hello Ruth,

Lovely to read your post, may I add my welcome and  hope to hear lots 
more from you .... 

Feeling isolated and unsupported is a very familiar  experience.  I 
feel exactly as you do quite often. Like you,  I realised there were 
only two choices ... continue on in spiritual loneliness and 
depression, and possibly fall away from the Teachings, or try to do 
something about it.  Initially, I used anything that could help.  
Meditation groups, Retreats, Internet groups, visiting monasteries, 
discussion with other Buddhists.  For a meditator, meditation groups 
are a good contact point - though with  the one I was in, once the 
original teacher moved away none of the 
members were interested in any more than the two hour gathering and 
practice once a week, and social meetings - most had no knowledge of 
the Teachings, and they considered themselves vaguely non-
denominational  buddhists.  Regarding dear ones who are not 
buddhist ... over time I have noticed a change in relatives and 
friends.  Very few have dropped away. Most accept me as I am, just as 
they used to do before I became 'nice, but odd'...... If someone is 
really interested in Buddhism and asks questions, I try to give 
sufficient info in my answers so they can search further if they 
wish, and are prepared to  make an effort themselves.  But I do not 
bring up the subject of  buddhism unless asked.  
For me, the answer was the Internet (for study and discussion) and a 
few trips during the year to meet with buddhist friends I've found, 
and those I can learn from.  Still not the easy way it was in 
Christianity - meeting with scores of like-minded people more than 
once a week, the integration of a structured spiritual life, social 
life and the school life of my children,  culturally acceptable and 
approved.  But this is just the way it is  - we are Buddhists in 
nominally Christian countries, nothing else we can  do but live the 
life we have.  The rewards grew for me as  a satisfying order came 
into my life. As I studied more of the Teachings, I lost interest 
in 'what' (and sometimes 'who') were not useful in learning and 
understanding the Dhamma, and gained interest in 'what'  and 'who' 
were.  I really didn't have much free choice - it happened - 
resisting the Dhamma was not one of the available options.
Be at peace about whether or not you should marry, or whether or not 
you should have children .... Is someone you love and desire beating 
down the door right at this moment demanding a decision? ....if you 
wish to and the opportunity arises ...do so; if you don't wish 
to ...don't.    To marry and have children is the easiest thing in 
the world to begin ..... a more difficult thing to maintain and 
continue .... a most difficult thing to finish and leave.  There are 
no guarantees.  There is no hurry, no compulsion to decide your 
entire Life's path right now..... Though broad plans are advisable no-
one can predict how long each of us will live, the urgent need is to 
practice and study the Teachings now, there is really just this 
moment. Everything can only be experienced in this moment.  All the 
rest is the past that has gone for ever, or the future that may never 
come. 

metta,
Christine

---  "Ruth Klein"  wrote:
> Hello Nina,
> 
> Ok, so I don't have much knowledge of scripture, but I sure do have 
first
> hand knowledge of life's little problems!  I often don't realize 
(until much
> much later) that others have the SAME problems; and may have 
already found
> ways of working them out.
> 
> The biggest issue I'm dealing with right now is the pressure to 
marry and
> start a family.  Most of the time I am content with my life the way 
it is.
> I spent three years examining "Who am I?" and have become 
comfortable with
> where I am.  However, I don't think that that question is skillful 
anymore;
> and I'm not sure what question I should be asking.  In addition, 
though I am
> happy whith where I am in life, I very easily get caught up in the 
idea of
> finding some 'special' person with whom to share my life.  Quite 
often I
> can't tell if it's truely my own desire, or a societal/parental 
pressure.  I
> feel most lonely when I'm trying to separate what is real from what 
is
> conditioned thought and my mind is not often quiet enough to find 
out.
> 
> Has anyone else found a way to deal with this?  Ironically this 
feeling
> usually overwhelms me 20-30 minutes AFTER a formal meditiation 
session, and
> I've suffered more because I cannot stop the rest of my life to sit 
and
> explore more thoroughly.  It gets burried 'til the next time.
> 
> Namaste,
> Ruth

 
14286 From: Sarah   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 5:40pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah/ Your Last Post on Vedana and Rupa

 
  Hi Howard,

I really appreciate your two messages to me. I’ve also found the
discussion very helpful.  Sometimes it’s only when one is really
questioned by someone with a great or only slightly different
understanding that one considers more carefully and also begins to look at
what one is just repeating and what is really understood directly.

In your first post where you very helpfully gave your initial response and
then your re-thought resonse, I particularly appreciated the openness, the
pragmatic approach and lack of evident mana (conceit) which made it
possible for you to re-evaluate in this way. I’m talking very
conventionally here, but I know you’ll understand.(I’m not suggesting
you’re an arahat with no mana;-)) We can all learn from the example and
it’s easy to see how entrenched views and mana would make this impossible.

Just a brief comment on the last two paragraphs of your second post as
we’re nicely winding up this thread for now, I think:

--- Howard wrote: >

>        So - the bottom line here is that I have come to see my
> experience of 
> rupa and vedana a bit more clearly, and I thank you for helping that
> along. 
> For a person like me who is inclined to math, science, and philosophy, 
> "seeing clearly" the way things are is pleasant, if not compulsive. ;-))
.....
Perhaps for all of us, each little bit of dust that is removed from our
vision gives great relief and usually, it’s only when it’s removed that we
have any idea that the dust was there....;-) It’s challenging (but
helpful) for me to talk to mathematicians like you and Dan, because
anything said has to be logical. But then, the Dhamma is logical....
.....
> 
>        Of course, as far as the real importance of "clear seeing" is 
> concerned, that, I think, lies only in leading one to seeing the 
> *impersonality* of all dhammas, their conditioned and tentative status,
> and 
> their unworthiness of being clung to. 
.....
Very nicely put.  This is exactly why it is important to understand
dhammas as namas and rupas (as Nina just wrote about) -- It’s the only way
that they will be seen as anatta.
.....
>Ultimately, it is the only the
> direct 
> knowing of the tilakkhana which is freeing, not knowing the specific 
> characteristics of specific dhammas. Knowing these specific
> characteristics 
> is simply a means to the end of realizing the tilakkhana.
.....
Ah, but remember the tilakkhana are the characteristics of ‘specific
dhammas’, so they go together, so to speak......Not sure if we have any
difference here or not.....

Thank you again for your kind and generous comments and for sharing what
you have learnt, Howard.

Sarah
====
p.sAnyone who has been following this thread might find Nina’s ‘Rupas’
useful reading (1st 2 chapters in particular) and also C4 on Rupa in her
translation of K.Sujin’s ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’. Probably the
chapter on ‘vedana’ in Cetasikas would be helpful too.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/Preface%20to%20paramattha.htm
http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas.html
http://www.dhammastudy.com/Rupas1.html>  
.............................................................................................




 
14287 From: Sarah   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:05pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Dan,

 --- onco111  wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> I've enjoyed my stay (as always), but I do need to hibernate. I'll be 
> travelling to Montana for two weeks in two weeks (are there even any 
> computers there?! Well, at least not where I'm going--cabin in the 
> mountains), and there is a lot of work to be done before that. 
> 
> It seems like this thread has run its course, so I'll just add a very 
> small set of closing comments.
.....
I hope you have a great trip to the mountains. Sounds lovely. Maybe you
can work on your skit and points for the ‘next round’. Do Lisa and the
kids get the holiday too, I wonder? If so, perhaps Lisa can write her own
skit on her 'glorious husband' stuck in his Pali grammar...;-) 

Jon’s latest toy is an I-pod (sp?) which somehow ‘goes with’ a Mac
computer and carries about 60 hrs of dhamma discussion from MP3 files into
a tiny little matchbox machine which now accompanies him on hikes, on
flights and even to bed. So now on a walk, a typical conversation goes:

Sarah: there’s another snake to tell Chris about...
Jon: <> (Thai shorthand)...good point
Sarah: Huh? did you see the white cockatoo?
Jon: &%$#@% (more Thai)....it means ‘metta now is more precious
than.....’*&%$
Sarah: Maybe we’ll have some silent walking meditation......;-)
.....
>> Dan: Let's just say it's a Dan-ish paraphrase of something he might 
> be able to find in the future.
.....
I’ll be waiting..;-))
....
OK, this is a good agenda (below) and I can see I’ll need a good holiday
first;-)
We can also add:
- your comments on dustrag
- samatha and jhana
-insight -> jhana

As you say, a good point to pause and we can both look out for/consider
reinforcements, as hopefully will others;-)

Many thanks again for all the Vism quotes and stimulating (read:demanding)
discussion which I found very helpful. We’ll speak after our trips.

Sarah
=====
 
> One thing I'd like to put on the list of things to talk about when we 
> both come back is the correspondence between words and reality -- how 
> the words are such simplistic summaries of extraordinarily intricate 
> phenomena that they are bound to miss the target and that there is 
> considerable variability in how phenomena can be described. In other 
> words, there may be several conceptualization schemes for the 
> same 'idea' and none of them are perfect pointers to the reality 
> [e.g. silabbataparamasa and sakayaditthi may just be two different 
> words for the phenomenon]). This has reverberations and consequences 
> throughout the study and practice of Dhamma. 
> 
> Another topic I'd like to put on the list is the relationship between 
> intellectual understanding, satipatthana, and vipassana.
> 
> Of course, by the time we get back, all memory of what I am thinking 
> vaguely about now may well have been totally erased. No matter.
................................................................................................





 
14288 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:36pm
Subject: Re: Rebirth

 
  Dear Robert, and All,

Thanks Robert.  I have often heard you and others say there are a 
great many references to show where the Buddha taught rebirth, that 
it was not in doubt.  I am particularly looking for Sutta 
references.  I had always accepted incessant rebirth as 
unquestionedly a  Buddhist Doctrine - but reading messages on a multi-
tradition list, and also on other Theravada lists, has given me a 
shock. Very large numbers of western Buddhists regard rebirth merely 
as a poetic way of expressing the process of awakening, and regard 
awakening itself  as being a metaphor for the continuous process of 
overcoming ignorance. They either reject the orthodox view of rebirth 
totally or are agnostic.  So I feel a need to verify that the Buddha 
specifically taught rebirth, and that he meant actual rebirth not 
using the term as a metaphor for something else.

metta,
Christine

---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
<robert> wrote:
> Dear Christine,
> There are so many that you will spend a long time collecting them 
> all.
> The 545 Jataka are one group. Here is a couple more:
> 
> http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm
> Anguttara Nikaya
> CHAPTER XX
> Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER
> 1) Blessings

> http://www.vipassana.info/019-dvedhavitakka-sutta-e1.htm
> Majjhima Nikaaya I. 
> 2. 9. Dvedhaavitakkasutta.m 
> best
> Robert

>  "christine_forsyth"  wrote:
> > Dear Group,
> > 
> > I have been reading around the topic of rebirth recently, and 
> wonder 
> > if anyone can point me in the direction of more Suttas where the 
> > Buddha explained and taught rebirth.  I have located those below, 
> > plus some teachings from Bhikkhu Bodhi - any additional 
references 
> > would be much appreciated.
> > 
> > metta,
> > Christine
> > /news/essay06.html

 
14289 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 3:11pm
Subject: No Difference (Re: [dsg] Sarah/ Your Last Post on Vedana and Rupa)

 
  Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 7/13/02 5:41:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
<> writes:


> >Ultimately, it is the only the
> > direct 
> > knowing of the tilakkhana which is freeing, not knowing the specific 
> > characteristics of specific dhammas. Knowing these specific
> > characteristics 
> > is simply a means to the end of realizing the tilakkhana.
> .....
> Ah, but remember the tilakkhana are the characteristics of ‘specific
> dhammas’, so they go together, so to speak......Not sure if we have any
> difference here or not.....
> 
=======================
       No, I don't think any difference. Knowing individual characteristics 
is important. The only true knowing is direct and detailed. I'm just 
pinpointing exactly where I see that importance to lie, namely in leading one 
to the tilakkhana., and from there to liberation.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14290 From: Ruth Klein   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 7:30pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] problems in daily life

 
  Christine,

What an encouraging response.  Thank you.

Actually, my parents are quite accepting of my studying Buddhism.  I come
from a Jewish 'house', where my parents sent us to religious school, but
themselves didn't seriously practice.  In fact, one of the reasons I chose
to 'leave' the Jewish community - many years before I heard any Dhamma - was
the feeling of lip service, mechanism of ritual, and politicism I saw Jews
paying to their own religion.

When I first decided to accept the 5 Precepts, it really wasn't all that
different from the way I was already trying to conduct my daily life (though
I REALLY need to become more mindful of gossip!).  I think part of my
parents' acceptance is that, well, they can see that I'm not being
brainwashed into something.  So I sit and meditate, ok... They all see that
I try to treat people with respect and kindness, and that I really sit and
listen, which are things they tried to teach me as a child!  Often I have a
hard time accepting that I am a Buddhist and not just a Jew studying the
teachings of the Buddha.  But then I remember that both are simply labels
and it doesn't really matter anymore.

Actually, about love and marriage, no one is beating down my door.  In fact,
its just the opposite.  Everyone is concerned that I never date. Its not
that I'm not attracted to men. I just happen to not be attracted to just
every man who crosses my path, and the few who I have... well, let's just
say that in the past 2.5 years there have been 2 men - one has chosen to Go
Forth and ordain, the other lives in Germany (and I currently call Oklahoma
home).

Enough talk!  Be safe,

Ruth


> -----Original Message-----
> From: christine_forsyth
> Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 3:54 AM

> Feeling isolated and unsupported is a very familiar  experience.  I
> feel exactly as you do quite often. Like you,  I realised there were
> only two choices ... continue on in spiritual loneliness and
> depression, and possibly fall away from the Teachings, or try to do
> something about it.  Initially, I used anything that could help.
> Meditation groups, Retreats, Internet groups, visiting monasteries,
> discussion with other Buddhists.  For a meditator, meditation groups
> are a good contact point - though with  the one I was in, once the
> original teacher moved away none of the
> members were interested in any more than the two hour gathering and
> practice once a week, and social meetings - most had no knowledge of
> the Teachings, and they considered themselves vaguely non-
> denominational  buddhists.  Regarding dear ones who are not
> buddhist ... over time I have noticed a change in relatives and
> friends.  Very few have dropped away. Most accept me as I am, just as
> they used to do before I became 'nice, but odd'...... If someone is
> really interested in Buddhism and asks questions, I try to give
> sufficient info in my answers so they can search further if they
> wish, and are prepared to  make an effort themselves.  But I do not
> bring up the subject of  buddhism unless asked.
> For me, the answer was the Internet (for study and discussion) and a
> few trips during the year to meet with buddhist friends I've found,
> and those I can learn from.  Still not the easy way it was in
> Christianity - meeting with scores of like-minded people more than
> once a week, the integration of a structured spiritual life, social
> life and the school life of my children,  culturally acceptable and
> approved.  But this is just the way it is  - we are Buddhists in
> nominally Christian countries, nothing else we can  do but live the
> life we have.  The rewards grew for me as  a satisfying order came
> into my life. As I studied more of the Teachings, I lost interest
> in 'what' (and sometimes 'who') were not useful in learning and
> understanding the Dhamma, and gained interest in 'what'  and 'who'
> were.  I really didn't have much free choice - it happened -
> resisting the Dhamma was not one of the available options.
> Be at peace about whether or not you should marry, or whether or not
> you should have children .... Is someone you love and desire beating
> down the door right at this moment demanding a decision? ....if you
> wish to and the opportunity arises ...do so; if you don't wish
> to ...don't.    To marry and have children is the easiest thing in
> the world to begin ..... a more difficult thing to maintain and
> continue .... a most difficult thing to finish and leave.  There are
> no guarantees.  There is no hurry, no compulsion to decide your
> entire Life's path right now..... Though broad plans are advisable no-
> one can predict how long each of us will live, the urgent need is to
> practice and study the Teachings now, there is really just this
> moment. Everything can only be experienced in this moment.  All the
> rest is the past that has gone for ever, or the future that may never
> come.
>

 
14291 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson  <<>> 
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 8:06pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Sarah, 
Yes, we have computers in Montana as I am typing on one.  If you are really coming to Montana and happen to pass thru Missoula on your way to your cabin in the wood if you have time and would like to get together for tea I would certain enjoy meeting you.  I will be here thru mid August so please let me know.    
With metta, Shakti
  Sarah  wrote: Dear Dan,

--- onco111 wrote: > Dear Sarah,
> I've enjoyed my stay (as always), but I do need to hibernate. I'll be 
> travelling to Montana for two weeks in two weeks (are there even any 
> computers there?! Well, at least not where I'm going--cabin in the 
> mountains), and there is a lot of work to be done before that. 
> 
> It seems like this thread has run its course, so I'll just add a very 
> small set of closing comments.
.....
I hope you have a great trip to the mountains. Sounds lovely. Maybe you
can work on your skit and points for the ‘next round’. Do Lisa and the
kids get the holiday too, I wonder? If so, perhaps Lisa can write her own
skit on her 'glorious husband' stuck in his Pali grammar...;-) 

Jon’s latest toy is an I-pod (sp?) which somehow ‘goes with’ a Mac
computer and carries about 60 hrs of dhamma discussion from MP3 files into
a tiny little matchbox machine which now accompanies him on hikes, on
flights and even to bed. So now on a walk, a typical conversation goes:

Sarah: there’s another snake to tell Chris about...
Jon: <> (Thai shorthand)...good point
Sarah: Huh? did you see the white cockatoo?
Jon: &%$#@% (more Thai)....it means ‘metta now is more precious
than.....’*&%$
Sarah: Maybe we’ll have some silent walking meditation......;-)
.....
>> Dan: Let's just say it's a Dan-ish paraphrase of something he might 
> be able to find in the future.
.....
I’ll be waiting..;-))
....
OK, this is a good agenda (below) and I can see I’ll need a good holiday
first;-)
We can also add:
- your comments on dustrag
- samatha and jhana
-insight -> jhana

As you say, a good point to pause and we can both look out for/consider
reinforcements, as hopefully will others;-)

Many thanks again for all the Vism quotes and stimulating (read:demanding)
discussion which I found very helpful. We’ll speak after our trips.

Sarah
=====

> One thing I'd like to put on the list of things to talk about when we 
> both come back is the correspondence between words and reality -- how 
> the words are such simplistic summaries of extraordinarily intricate 
> phenomena that they are bound to miss the target and that there is 
> considerable variability in how phenomena can be described. In other 
> words, there may be several conceptualization schemes for the 
> same 'idea' and none of them are perfect pointers to the reality 
> [e.g. silabbataparamasa and sakayaditthi may just be two different 
> words for the phenomenon]). This has reverberations and consequences 
> throughout the study and practice of Dhamma. 
> 
> Another topic I'd like to put on the list is the relationship between 
> intellectual understanding, satipatthana, and vipassana.
> 
> Of course, by the time we get back, all memory of what I am thinking 
> vaguely about now may well have been totally erased. No matter.
................................................................................................






 
14292 From: yuzhonghao  <Victor> 
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:09pm
Subject: Re: Rebirth

 
  Hi Christine and all,

Please refer to the section (Recollection of Past Lives) in
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html

The first sentence in that section says:
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, 
free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to 
imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the 
recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes)."

Not everyone is able to see his or her past lives.  It would be a 
mistake to say that there are no past lives when one does not see 
them.

Regards,
Victor


---  "christine_forsyth"  
wrote:
> Dear Robert, and All,
> 
> Thanks Robert.  I have often heard you and others say there are a 
> great many references to show where the Buddha taught rebirth, that 
> it was not in doubt.  I am particularly looking for Sutta 
> references.  I had always accepted incessant rebirth as 
> unquestionedly a  Buddhist Doctrine - but reading messages on a 
multi-
> tradition list, and also on other Theravada lists, has given me a 
> shock. Very large numbers of western Buddhists regard rebirth 
merely 
> as a poetic way of expressing the process of awakening, and regard 
> awakening itself  as being a metaphor for the continuous process of 
> overcoming ignorance. They either reject the orthodox view of 
rebirth 
> totally or are agnostic.  So I feel a need to verify that the 
Buddha 
> specifically taught rebirth, and that he meant actual rebirth not 
> using the term as a metaphor for something else.
> 
> metta,
> Christine

 
14293 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:28pm
Subject: Re: Rebirth

 
  ---
Dear Christine (and Victor),
I love reading over the Dhammapada too. Many short suttas here 
mention rebirth. e.g.
http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm#334337
Manujassa pamattacaarino, ta.nhaa va.d.dhati maaluvaa viya;
          so plavatii huraa hura.m, phalamiccha.mva vanasmi vaanaro.

Verse 334. In a man who is unmindful craving grows like a creeper. 
He runs from birth to birth, like a monkey seeking fruits in the 
forest. 
Huraahura.m means 'in various existences or succesive births'.
 
I also read this in the same section which is nice to contemplate:

Verse 367. He who does not take the mind-and-body aggregate (nama-
rupa) as "I and mine", and who does not grieve over the dissolution 
(of mind and body) is, indeed, called a bhikkhu. 
367. Sabbaso naamaruupasmi.m, yassa natthi mamaayita.m;
          asataa ca na socati, sa ve "bhikkhuu"ti vuccati.
Robert



  "yuzhonghao" <Victor> wrote:
> Hi Christine and all,
> 
> Please refer to the section (Recollection of Past Lives) in
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html
> 
> The first sentence in that section says:
> "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, 
unblemished, 
> free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to 
> imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the 
> recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes)."
> 
> Not everyone is able to see his or her past lives.  It would be a 
> mistake to say that there are no past lives when one does not see 
> them.
> 
> Regards,
> Victor
> 
> 
> ---

 

14294 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment

 
  Victor

--- yuzhonghao <Victor> wrote: 
> Howard, Jon, and all,
…
> I don't want to argue with you, Jon, whether the attainment of jhanas 
> is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment.  Right concentration 
> is part of Noble Eightfold Path.  The Buddha pointed out the Path, 
> and it is really up to us to follow it.  Jon, instead of trying to 
> prove or figure out whether attainment of jhana is necessary for 
> enlightenment, I think it would be more beneficial to follow the 
> Buddha's instruction to develop right concentration, along with other 
> factors in the Path.
> You might be interested in the following discourses
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html

I of course agree that Right Concentration is a factor of the Noble
Eightfold Path.  However, I think you and I disagree as to just what that
means.  

You understand that, since Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path
is described in terms of the jhanas, it means that Right Concentration is
developed by developing samatha/the jhanas, and that this may be done
independently of the other 7 factors.  

I understand it to mean that Right Concentration is the concentration that
arises together with the other 7 path factors at a moment of path
consciousness, and accordingly that Right Concentration is developed by
developing satipatthana, which is also known as the mundane path.

So we are not about to agree on anything just now ;-))

Many thanks for the sutta references.  In the first of these (copied
below, because it is quite short), the Buddha encourages the development
of that concentration by which a monk 'discerns things as they actually
are present'.  To my way of thinking, this is a description of the
concentration that accompanies satipatthana rather than the concentration
that accompanies samatha/the jhanas.  In samatha, there is no discerning
of *things [dhammas] as they actually are present*, since samatha
generally has a concept/nimitta as its object, and the aim is the
attainment of tranquillity by excluding all sense-door experiences.

The second sutta is rather more complicated but, in brief, seems to refer
to the development of understanding in one who is also developing samatha
('tranquillity' in the series of factors).  I see no particular
significance here as regards how Right Concentration is to be developed,
other than, again, that it develops as understanding is developed.  (BTW,
the term 'prerequisite' in this translation is given as 'proximate cause'
in the Bh Bodhi translation.)

You suggest that it's better to actually start following the Buddha's
instruction than to concern oneself with getting the theory right.  I'm
afraid I can't agree here.  If the teachings are not correctly understood,
I don't think the 'practice' can have any chance of being right.  Simply
following what we understand from a superficial reading of selected
suttas, or what we are told by a 'teacher' to be the practice, does not
seem to me either prudent or in accord with what the Buddha himself said
on the subject.  

On the question of what the Buddha himself said, let me quote this passage
from a sutta cited by Rob K in a post to Christine a few hours ago:

Anguttara Nikaya, Chapter XX, Mahavaggo, The Great Chapter
(1) Blessings
"Brethren, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the
ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the
mind and penetration of the Norm through insight. What four? …"

The Buddha constantly reminded his followers of the need for frequent and
repeated listening to the teachings, careful considering of what has been
heard and applying to the present moment what has been considered and
understood.  This in fact *is* the practice.

Jon

PS  Have you had a chance to look at the Upali Sutta I mentioned in my
post to Howard?
> > I'd be interested to know how you see the many lay followers who
attained
> > various stages of enlightenment, for example, Upali (Upali Sutta, M.
56,
> > p.477 of MLDB, at p.485).

=====================
Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99
Samadhi Sutta -- Concentration
Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

"Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they
actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? 
"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'...
'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'...
'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on
eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as
neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' 
"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is inconstant'...
'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body is
inconstant"... 
"He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is
inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is
inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in
dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain,
or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' 
"So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as
they actually are present."
=====================



 
14295 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment

 
  Howard

I thought your diagrammatic representation below to be an interesting way
of presenting the sutta (probably comes naturally to a mathematician!).

 --- Howard wrote: 
> Hi again, Victor (and Jon) -
>        It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what
is 
> discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara
> Nikaya 
> (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). Diagramatically,
what  is said there is the following:
> 
>        Sense control
>        ->
>        Virtue
>        ->
>        Right concentration
>        ->
>        Knowledge and vision of things as they really are
>        ->
>        Revulsion and dispassion
>        ->
>        Knowledge and vision of liberation.
> 
>        The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite
pivotal. 
> That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three.

I do not for a moment question the importance of Right Concentration (or
of any of the 8 path factors for that matter).

However, would you not agree that the sense control, virtue,
concentration, knowledge and vision, etc, are to be developed
concurrently, as far as that is possible in the individual case, each
supporting the development of the other, and not in an exclusively
sequential manner? 

Otherwise, you would have to say that virtue must be perfected before
Right Concentration can be developed, and sense control even before
virtue.

Jon



 
14296 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 6:48pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 7/13/02 9:58:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> 
> Howard
> 
> I thought your diagrammatic representation below to be an interesting way
> of presenting the sutta (probably comes naturally to a mathematician!).
> 
> --- Howard wrote: 
> > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) -
> >        It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what
> is 
> > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara
> > Nikaya 
> > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). Diagramatically,
> what  is said there is the following:
> > 
> >        Sense control
> >        ->
> >        Virtue
> >        ->
> >        Right concentration
> >        ->
> >        Knowledge and vision of things as they really are
> >        ->
> >        Revulsion and dispassion
> >        ->
> >        Knowledge and vision of liberation.
> > 
> >        The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite
> pivotal. 
> > That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three.
> 
> I do not for a moment question the importance of Right Concentration (or
> of any of the 8 path factors for that matter).
> 
> However, would you not agree that the sense control, virtue,
> concentration, knowledge and vision, etc, are to be developed
> concurrently, as far as that is possible in the individual case, each
> supporting the development of the other, and not in an exclusively
> sequential manner? 
> 
--------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I would, indeed, agree with that. In fact, I picture bhavana (in its 
general sense) as proceeding rather like an ever-widening spiral, so that 
"later" factors developed in an interior portion of the spiral are conditions 
for "early" factors developed in more exterior portions (if you can envisage 
what I mean). This sutta happens to display certain basic  conditionalities. 
I think it is important in that it shows the fundamental role that right 
concentration plays. It shows it as a condition for the arising of liberative 
wisdom, and, by doing so, it may serve as a cautionary note for any folks who 
might happen to downplay the importance of concentration at that formative 
stage of practice.
--------------------------------------------------

> 
> Otherwise, you would have to say that virtue must be perfected before
> Right Concentration can be developed, and sense control even before
> virtue.
> 
---------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       That would be a great error. On that basis, one could never get 
started! ;-) This is exactly my point with regard to spiral development. A 
degree of sense control leads to a degree of virtue, ..., leads to a degree 
of wisdom, leads, yet again, to a further degree of sense control, etc, 
around and around, wider and wider.
---------------------------------------------------

> 
> Jon
> 
> 
==========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14297 From: abhidhammika  <Suan> 
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 11:17pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth: More Translations

 
  Dear Sarah, Jon, and DSG Pali Friends

In case you would like to read translations of some commentary Pali 
quotes left untranslated in my post "Syntax Shell ..", the following 
is my reply to Nina's request.

Hope you find them useful.

Suan

--------------------------------------------------


Dear Nina

How are you?

Sorry for my late reply. Due to my ISP technical problems, I was not 
able to log on to the Internent since last Thursday night (11 July 
2002). Only now I was able to log on to the Internet.

Thank you for your kind comments.

Here are the translations for the quotes in my post.

1."Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. 
Section 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa."

The above commentary Pali refers to the following Pali original.

 "Ekamidaaham,  bho  gotama,  samayam.." 

"Ekam idam aham, bho gotama, samayam..."

"Once, Gotama, I .."

Therefore, we could translate the commentary Pali as follows.

In the phrase "Ekamidaaham", 'idam' is merely nipaata with no meaning 
here. The meaning of "ekamidaaham" would be "Once, I ...".    


2. Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. Section 96
Paathika Atthakathaa.
 
The above commentary Pali refers to the following Pali original.

"manussesu ekidam sattaa vaºnºnavanto honti, ekidam sattaa 
dubbaºnºnaa."

"Monks, among human beings, some beings are beautiful, some beings 
ugly".

Therefore, we could trnaslate the commentary Pali as follows.

In the phrase "Ekidam", 'idam is merely nipaata with no meaning here. 
The meaning of "Ekidam sattaa" would be "Some beings ..". 

Please notice that "eke" is unusual. It looks like the case of a 
plural object. So "one"'s plural would be "ones". Amazing! But, we 
need to translate "Eke" as "some" for natural English. 


With kind regards,

Suan









---  "abhidhammika" <Suan> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Sarah
> 
> Thank you for mentioning "The Five Eyes" from Nina's post.
> 
> In my translation of the fourth noble truth, though, I merely 
> regarded the eye as a synonym of the right view or the right 
seeing. 
> In fact, I rugarded all the five terms beginning with the eye as 
> synonyms of awakening because the Buddha was describing how he 
> discovered the four noble truths.
> 
> With regards,
> 
> Suan
> 
> 
> 
> ---  Sarah  wrote:
> > Dear Suan,
> > 
> > Thank you for your translation and comments which I found very 
> helpful.
> > 
> > >You could perform the "Syntax Walk-
> > > through" on the translation.
> > .....
> > I enjoy this form of 'walk-through' meditation';-)
> > 
> > For `cakkhum' in "the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight 
> etc",
> > you mention this is "cakkhu, the eye of awakening."
> > 
> > I read this just before I read Nina's latest translation from the 
> Paramis
> > which refers to the Cariyapitaka's account of the Bodhisatta's
> > accumulation of the parami of giving. It mentions all the objects 
> he gives
> > and these include "lamps so he might obtain the five eyes.".
> > 
> > The footnote to the commentary (quoted by Nina) gives:
> > 
> >  "These five eyes are the fleshly eye, the divine eye by which he 
> sees the
> > passing away and rebirth of beings, the wisdom eye, by which he 
> sees all
> > dhammas with their characteristics and their conditions, the 
Buddha-
> eye,
> > by
> > which he sees the dispositions of beings and the maturity of their
> > faculties, and the universal eye, his knowledge of omniscience."
> > 
> > I assume `cakkhum' in the 4th Noble Truth refers to the third 
one, 
> the
> > `wisdom eye', although this probably doesn't apply as they are all
> > referring to the Buddha's `five eyes'.....;-)
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Sarah
> > =====
> >  --- abhidhammika <Suan> wrote: > 
> > > 
> > > Dear Sarah, Jon, Robert Epstein, and Dhamma Friends
> > > 
> > > How are you?
> > > 
> > > The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes 
> the 
> > > fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically 
> > > literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render 
> it in 
> > > as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax 
> Walk-
> > > through" on the translation.
> > > 
> > > I hope you find it useful.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > "`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, 
> > > bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, 
> > > ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko 
> > > udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
> > > ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe …pe… 
> > > udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
> > > ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu
> > > tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa
> > > udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.
> > > 
> > > The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 
1081, 
> > > Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, 
> > > produced by Vipassana research Institute .
> > > 
> > > 
> > > THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH
> > > 
> > > Translated By Suan Lu Zaw
> > > 
> > > Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the 
> light 
> > > occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is 
> the 
> > > noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The 
> eye, 
> > > the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me 
> on 
> > > the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that 
> noble 
> > > truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be 
> > > followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the 
insight, 
> and 
> > > the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities 
> that, as 
> > > for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for 
> cessation of 
> > > misery has been accomplished.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > GRAMMARTICAL NOTES
> > > 
> > > Pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu = the previously unheard-of 
realities 
> > >   This expression could have been rendered as "new discoveries" 
> in 
> > > the }odern context.
> > > 
> > > Me = to me. Me is in the dative case and received the action of 
> > > occurring (udapaadi). It does not have the previously unheard-
of 
> > > realities as its object in this context. The Buddha's emphasis 
> here 
> > > is on how his awakening in terms of the five synonyms had 
> occurred to 
> > > him, not on his ignorance of realities.
> > > 
> > > Cakkhum = cakkhu, the eye of awakening.
> > > 
> > > Tam = That as the determining adjective of the noble truth. The 
> > > Buddha used "tam" here to contrast it with "idam", which is the 
> > > subject in the previoius sentence so that he could highlight 
the 
> > > contrast between the observation (This is the noble truth) and 
> the 
> > > action in line with that observation (That noble truth ... 
should 
> be 
> > > followed through).
> > > 
> > > Kho panidam = As for contrast. The Buddha was contrasting the 
> > > observations and the actions taken regarding the fourth noble 
> truth 
> > > as well as the first, the second, and the third noble truths.
> > > 
> > > Panidam = Pana + idam. Here, "idam" has been uttered for the 
> sound 
> > > effect.
> > > 
> > > Other examples of "idam" as the sound effect are as follows.
> > > 
> > > Ekamidaahanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam. Ekam ahanti attho. 
> Section 
> > > 265 Siilakkhandha Atthakathaa.
> > > 
> > > Ekidanti ettha idanti nipaatamattam, eke sattaati attho. 
Section 
> 96 
> > > Paathika Atthakathaa.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > With regards,
> > > 
> > > Suan
> > > 
> > > http://www.bodhiology.org/


 
14298 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 0:57am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood

 
  Dear Frank, Thank you for your very enjoyable, agreeable reply. Sukin will
also be happy.
But I find it also very informative, helps me to consider more the influence
of food on the citta. Very practical. I shall print it out. But you have
found out what is suitable for you, personally. I need cheese for calcium,
and when I hike in the heat and perspire, my body needs salt. But I use too
much, maybe not good? It is a habit of mine.
What is power yoga? What is its goal?
You speak about renunciation, and it may be of interest to you to hear what
A. Sujin tells about this subject in her book on the perfections, also
mentioning food. This made me think, and now I have also your post about
food. I quote: 

<Therefore, the perfection of renunciation does not merely mean leaving the
household life and becoming a monk. Renunciation means having the energy and
courage to eliminate the clinging we all have to visible object, sound and
the other sense objects. So long as we have not attained the excellent state
of the non-returner, we have not eradicated clinging to sense objects. We
should know ourselves as we are, we should know whether we are sincere and
have the firm determination to eliminate the clinging to the five sense
objects. We are, for example, attached to colour, when we look at pictures,
when we find them beautiful and delightful. Generally, when we see something
beautiful, we are likely to have enjoyment and clinging, lobha. If there is
heedfulness, it can be known that at such a  moment this is only a reality,
a dhamma, that appears. Attachment can decrease by not trying to obtain the
attractive object so that we accumulate even more attachment. Thus, when
there is a pleasant object, we can see it, but when it is not there and we
cannot see it, we shall not search for it.
We may usually eat delicious food, and when we eat too much it is bad for
our body. However, the citta that is attached to the flavour of food causes
us to eat even when we are not hungry. If we can eliminate clinging, if we
can have renunciation with regard to flavour, we shall eat just enough to
satisfy our hunger, and if possible, we shall not even relish the food so
much. Someone may not be hungry, and he knows that he will feel
uncomfortable if he still eats. However, because the food is so delicious,
he will just savour one morsel. This shows that he does not have
renunciation. If there is renunciation, someone can begin to train himself
by endurance, and thus, he needs to have also the perfection of patience, so
that he will eat just sufficiently to satisfy his hunger; he knows when the
amount of food is enough and will be of use to his body.
We can understand that it is most difficult to be free from clinging to the
sense objects, because even training oneself to decrease clinging is already
difficult. Therefore, we should develop moral strength so that all the
perfections can assist satipaììhåna to be aware of the characteristics of
realities more often in daily life.
If we have patience we can endure the experience of heat or cold. When the
weather is hot, we do not need to make special efforts to have a cold bath,
or when it is cold, we do not need a warm bath. For some people it may be
necessary for their body to take care of the right temperature of their
bath. However, when this is not the case, we may just be attached to the
temperature of the water. Some people, when they have a warm bath, just feel
comfortable and pleasant; even though their body is strong and they do not
need a warm bath, they just like to have this pleasant sensation. Or
sometimes they take pleasure in having a cold bath. When someone understands
the perfection of renunciation, he can have more endurance, no matter
whether he experiences heat or cold. When he has endurance, he also needs
the perfection of patience and of energy.
Nobody can tell someone else to give up attachment to sense pleasures, nor
can one tell oneself to do this, but it must be paññå which understands the
true meaning of the perfection of renunciation.>
  
Thank you Frank,  
Nina. 

> 
> Frank food is simple, nutritious, mostly raw
> fruit/veggies and steamed veggies and sprouted
> legumes/grains steamed. No oil, no sauce, a pinch of
> salt and sometimes a pinch of curry to diversify
> mineral and nutrient diversity, but not enough for
> most people to actually realize there is any salt. My
> diet is something that evolved over time to optimize
> for nutrition and high performance yoga/meditation
> (i.e. maximize energy, minimize sluggishness,
> drowsiness, other undesirable side effects of rich
> flavorful meals). These meals are delicious to me, but
> not so stimulating that would encourage overeating.
> Delicious taste is a natural biological resopnse to
> guide us to satisfy nutrient requirements like sugar,
> fat, minerals, etc. However, the refined, heavily
> processed foods and extravagantly rich sauces has a
> way of enticing desire and induce heavy overeating. By
> eating simple, it's much easier to monitor the body's
> feedback which naturally lets you know when it has
> enough fat, sugar, salt, etc.
> Some monks may actually appreciate what I eat, but
> most monks, just as most people in the world would
> find my typical meal an austere practice. Admittedly,
> my food is not as flavorful and conventionally
> delicious as typical food people eat, but the benefits
> to energized physical and mental alertness is well
> worth the trade off. And over time, the benefits are
> so overwhelmingly clear that even the most delicious
> dishes have very little allure to me anymore. Kind of
> like how I still fully understand the gratification of
> owning and driving an exotic sports car, but
> understanding the dangers, I find  the peace and
> relaxation of renunciation is far preferable.
> My experience when I do short repeats at a temple is
> that it there is a tremendous difference in my
> meditation from the diet in the temple
> (delicious/spicy/oily) vs. my normal diet. Normal food
> gives me cramps, gas, spiciness induced sharp pains in
> body, sluggishness in my meditation if I eat a
> sufficent amount to satisfy hunger. But if I don't eat
> enough, to decrease the negative side effects, then I
> slowly but systematically suffer loss of energy from
> lack of good nutrition. 




 
14299 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 0:57am
Subject: Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life.

 
  Dear Jon, 
you wrote to Howard about meditation in texts and then mentioned the
following: 

op 12-07-2002 15:27 schreef Jonothan Abbott op <>:
And in the
> case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the
> seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts.
> 
> If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as something
> that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting for
> the purpose.  Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries this
> implication for many readers.
>> Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am
> misinterpreted.  I am of course not overlooking the fact that there were
> many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while
> 'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting'
> attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not 'sitting'
> -- listening to the Buddha's discourses).  And among the many monks in the
> Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most (but
> not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'.  (BTW, I wonder
> if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work out
> the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…).> end quote.

N: Very interesting subject, Jon. I took out last night the "Psalms of the
Brothers and Sisters" and began to look at a few of the Theris who attained
enlightenment: 

Canto I, no 1, an anonymous sister: her curry burnt in the oven, it reminded
her of impermanence and she became a non-returner.
no. 17, Dhamma: returning from her alms round she lost her balance and fell.
This reminded her of the Truth: "all the misery besetting this poor mortal
frame" and she attained arahatship.
No 23, Citta: she climbed in her old age Vulture's Peak, her bowl
overturned, and she leaned agains a rock. She attained arahatship.
You remember the shady place on top near a rock where we could sit and rest.
Then we saw A. Sujin being carried up in a chair, Khun Santi was helping
her, because she had some trouble with her leg.
no. 47, Patacara: she had lost chidren and husband. The trickling water and
the fading light of the lamp reminded her of impermanence and she became an
arahat.

I could go on and on, I only looked at the beginning. Many instances also of
attaining enlightenment when listening to the Buddha's preaching of Dhamma.
But it is said that they had already developed the right conditions for
aeons. They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of daily
life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. We have so
many reminders all around, but we let them pass. We could make a better use
of them. 
Thank you Jon, of this suggestion to consider daily life,
with appreciation, 
Nina.

 
14300 From: Ruth Klein   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 1:31am
Subject: anyone in Southern CA (SD area)?

 
  I just found out that my ride from the SD airport to Wat Metta has fallen through (my friend will be in New Jersey!).  Is there anyone in the area who might be willing to drop me off/pick me up (and get a chance to go visit the monestary for a day)?   I could take an airport van, but that would really cut into my rather tight student budget.

Ruth 



 
14301 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Jul 13, 2002 11:42pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life.

 
  Hi, Nina (and Jon) -

In a message dated 7/13/02 12:58:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina 
writes:


> 
> Dear Jon, 
> you wrote to Howard about meditation in texts and then mentioned the
> following: 
> 
> op 12-07-2002 15:27 schreef Jonothan Abbott op <>:
> And in the
> > case of vipassana bhavana, there is no particular association with the
> > seated position at all, to my understanding of the texts.
> > 
> > If this is so, then it would not be correct to regard bhavana as 
> something
> > that can only happen, or that is more likely to happen, while sitting for
> > the purpose.  Unfortunately, the term 'meditation' probably carries this
> > implication for many readers.
> >> Before moving on, I need to add some disclaimers in case I am
> > misinterpreted.  I am of course not overlooking the fact that there were
> > many monks, like the Buddha himself, who attained enlightenment while
> > 'sitting', but the suttas also abound with instances of non-'sitting'
> > attainers (including the many who attained while seated but not 'sitting'
> > -- listening to the Buddha's discourses).  And among the many monks in 
> the
> > Buddha's time who attained enlightenment together with jhanas, most (but
> > not necessarily all) would have done so while 'sitting'.  (BTW, I wonder
> > if anyone has ever done an analysis of the Thera- Their-gatha to work out
> > the incidence of enlightenment while sitting…).> end quote.
> 
> N: Very interesting subject, Jon. I took out last night the "Psalms of the
> Brothers and Sisters" and began to look at a few of the Theris who attained
> enlightenment: 
> 
> Canto I, no 1, an anonymous sister: her curry burnt in the oven, it 
> reminded
> her of impermanence and she became a non-returner.
> no. 17, Dhamma: returning from her alms round she lost her balance and 
> fell.
> This reminded her of the Truth: "all the misery besetting this poor mortal
> frame" and she attained arahatship.
> No 23, Citta: she climbed in her old age Vulture's Peak, her bowl
> overturned, and she leaned agains a rock. She attained arahatship.
> You remember the shady place on top near a rock where we could sit and 
> rest.
> Then we saw A. Sujin being carried up in a chair, Khun Santi was helping
> her, because she had some trouble with her leg.
> no. 47, Patacara: she had lost chidren and husband. The trickling water and
> the fading light of the lamp reminded her of impermanence and she became an
> arahat.
> 
> I could go on and on, I only looked at the beginning. Many instances also 
> of
> attaining enlightenment when listening to the Buddha's preaching of Dhamma.
> But it is said that they had already developed the right conditions for
> aeons. They were mindful of nama and rupa in daily life and events of daily
> life were their "goad", reminded them of the truth of realities. We have so
> many reminders all around, but we let them pass. We could make a better use
> of them. 
> Thank you Jon, of this suggestion to consider daily life,
> with appreciation, 
> Nina. 
> 
================================
       One comes across very similar stories in the Zen tradition, such as 
someone becoming enlightened after a stone chip sharply hits a bamboo, or a 
bowl breaks upon falling to the ground. It is like a sudden breeze causing a 
ripe fruit to fall from the tree. An unripe fruit would not fall even in a 
typhoon, but a ripe fruit falls easily. Much ripening has to come first, much 
cultivation.To mix metaphors, the wind is just the final straw to break the 
camel's back.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14302 From: frank kuan   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 5:34am
Subject: kamma?

 
  Cause and effect
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 His name was Fleming, and he was a poor Scottish
farmer. One day, while trying to make a living for his
family, he heard a cry for help coming from a nearby
bog. He dropped his tools and ran to the bog. There,
mired to his waist in black muck, was a terrified boy,
screaming and struggling to free himself.

Farmer Fleming saved the lad from what could have been
a slow and terrifying death.

The next day, a fancy carriage pulled up to the
Scottsman's sparse surroundings. An elegantly dressed
nobleman stepped out and introduced himself as the
father of the boy Farmer Fleming had saved. "I want to
repay you," said the nobleman. "You saved my son's
life." "No, I can't accept payment for what I did,"
the Scottish farmer replied, waving off the offer.

At that moment, the farmer's own son came to the door
of the family hovel. "Is that your son?" the nobleman
asked. "Yes," the farmer replied proudly. "I'll make
you a deal. Let me provide him with the level of
education my son will enjoy. If the lad is anything
like his father, he'll no doubt grow to be a man we
both will be proud of."

And that he did.

Farmer Fleming's son attended the very best schools
and in time, he graduated from St. Mary's Hospital
Medical School in London, and went on to become known
throughout the world as the noted Sir Alexander
Fleming, the discoverer of Penicillin.

Years afterward, the same nobleman's son who was saved
from the bog was stricken with pneumonia. What saved
his life this time? Penicillin.

The name of the nobleman? Lord Randolph Churchill.

His son's name? Sir Winston Churchill.



 
14303 From: yuzhonghao  <Victor> 
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 6:01am
Subject: Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment

 
  Hi Jon,

Thank you, Jon, for replying.  Best wishes with the practice.

Regards,
Victor

---  Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Victor
> 
> --- yuzhonghao <Victor> wrote: 
> > Howard, Jon, and all,
> …
> > I don't want to argue with you, Jon, whether the attainment of 
jhanas 
> > is a necessary prerequisite for enlightenment.  Right 
concentration 
> > is part of Noble Eightfold Path.  The Buddha pointed out the 
Path, 
> > and it is really up to us to follow it.  Jon, instead of trying 
to 
> > prove or figure out whether attainment of jhana is necessary for 
> > enlightenment, I think it would be more beneficial to follow the 
> > Buddha's instruction to develop right concentration, along with 
other 
> > factors in the Path.
> > You might be interested in the following discourses
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html
> 
> I of course agree that Right Concentration is a factor of the Noble
> Eightfold Path.  However, I think you and I disagree as to just 
what that
> means.  
> 
> You understand that, since Right Concentration of the Noble 
Eightfold Path
> is described in terms of the jhanas, it means that Right 
Concentration is
> developed by developing samatha/the jhanas, and that this may be 
done
> independently of the other 7 factors.  
> 
> I understand it to mean that Right Concentration is the 
concentration that
> arises together with the other 7 path factors at a moment of path
> consciousness, and accordingly that Right Concentration is 
developed by
> developing satipatthana, which is also known as the mundane path.
> 
> So we are not about to agree on anything just now ;-))
> 
> Many thanks for the sutta references.  In the first of these (copied
> below, because it is quite short), the Buddha encourages the 
development
> of that concentration by which a monk 'discerns things as they 
actually
> are present'.  To my way of thinking, this is a description of the
> concentration that accompanies satipatthana rather than the 
concentration
> that accompanies samatha/the jhanas.  In samatha, there is no 
discerning
> of *things [dhammas] as they actually are present*, since samatha
> generally has a concept/nimitta as its object, and the aim is the
> attainment of tranquillity by excluding all sense-door experiences.
> 
> The second sutta is rather more complicated but, in brief, seems to 
refer
> to the development of understanding in one who is also developing 
samatha
> ('tranquillity' in the series of factors).  I see no particular
> significance here as regards how Right Concentration is to be 
developed,
> other than, again, that it develops as understanding is developed.  
(BTW,
> the term 'prerequisite' in this translation is given as 'proximate 
cause'
> in the Bh Bodhi translation.)
> 
> You suggest that it's better to actually start following the 
Buddha's
> instruction than to concern oneself with getting the theory right.  
I'm
> afraid I can't agree here.  If the teachings are not correctly 
understood,
> I don't think the 'practice' can have any chance of being right.  
Simply
> following what we understand from a superficial reading of selected
> suttas, or what we are told by a 'teacher' to be the practice, does 
not
> seem to me either prudent or in accord with what the Buddha himself 
said
> on the subject.  
> 
> On the question of what the Buddha himself said, let me quote this 
passage
> from a sutta cited by Rob K in a post to Christine a few hours ago:
> 
> Anguttara Nikaya, Chapter XX, Mahavaggo, The Great Chapter
> (1) Blessings
> "Brethren, four blessings should be expected from listening to with 
the
> ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with 
the
> mind and penetration of the Norm through insight. What four? …"
> 
> The Buddha constantly reminded his followers of the need for 
frequent and
> repeated listening to the teachings, careful considering of what 
has been
> heard and applying to the present moment what has been considered 
and
> understood.  This in fact *is* the practice.
> 
> Jon
> 
> PS  Have you had a chance to look at the Upali Sutta I mentioned in 
my
> post to Howard?
> > > I'd be interested to know how you see the many lay followers who
> attained
> > > various stages of enlightenment, for example, Upali (Upali 
Sutta, M.
> 56,
> > > p.477 of MLDB, at p.485).
> 
> =====================
> Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99
> Samadhi Sutta -- Concentration
> Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
> 
> "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things 
as they
> actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is 
present? 
> "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is 
inconstant'...
> 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'...
> 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on
> eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as
> neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' 
> "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is 
inconstant'...
> 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is inconstant'... 'The body 
is
> inconstant"... 
> "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is
> inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is
> inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever 
arises in
> dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as 
pain,
> or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' 
> "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns 
things as
> they actually are present."

 
14304 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:12am
Subject: Question?

 
  Hi All,

I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page 1023 '30 
Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas.
Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And why 
would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu 
desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the company 
of these egg-born supannas?
Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali Text 
Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon.

metta,
Christine

 
14305 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:22am
Subject: Re: Question?

 
  --- 
Dear Christine,
The are many types of being in this universe, most of which we 
cannot see. I think suppanas are supposed to be very powerful 
birdlike creatures that fight with nagas - who are snake like 
creatures. It is not considered especially good kamma to be born as 
one of these, but some people may wish to because of the supernormal 
powers that these beings are said to have.
As the commentary notes that Buddha taught these suttas so that 
those bhikkhus would give up their desire for this type of birth.
Robert

 "christine_forsyth"  wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page 
1023 '30 
> Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas.
> Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And 
why 
> would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu 
> desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the 
company 
> of these egg-born supannas?
> Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali 
Text 
> Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon.
> 
> metta,
> Christine

 
14306 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:42am
Subject: Re: Question?

 
  Thanks Robert.


As you say,  the Buddha teaches that we live in this world surrounded 
by Unseen beings of various types. 
The next two discourses are about Devas of the Gandhabba order who 
dwell in fragrant roots,  heartwood,  soft-wood,  bark,  shoots,  
leaves flowers, fruits, sap and scents, and Devas of the Cloud-
dwelling order (Cool-Cloud Devas, Warm-Cloud Devas, Storm-Cloud 
Devas, Wind-Cloud Devas, and Rain-Cloud Devas). p1025 p1028
How delightful! 
Ummm....   As I'm looking into rebirth at the moment, and seeking to 
discover that what the Buddha taught was exactly what he said and he 
wasn't using poetic language or metaphor, or going along with Folk 
beliefs so as not to shock the everyday person....I'll just ask this 
straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this sound a 
little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?'  Pixies and elves 
and gnomes, only perhaps more powerful?  It seems that people who 
lived at that time had experience of the Devas.  Has anyone in modern 
times experienced or seen such beings?  If not, I wonder why not?

metta,
Christine

---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
<robert> wrote:
> --- 
> Dear Christine,
> The are many types of being in this universe, most of which we 
> cannot see. I think suppanas are supposed to be very powerful 
> birdlike creatures that fight with nagas - who are snake like 
> creatures. It is not considered especially good kamma to be born as 
> one of these, but some people may wish to because of the 
supernormal 
> powers that these beings are said to have.
> As the commentary notes that Buddha taught these suttas so that 
> those bhikkhus would give up their desire for this type of birth.
> Robert
> 
>  "christine_forsyth"  wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page 
> 1023 '30 
> > Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas.
> > Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? And 
> why 
> > would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a Bhikkhu 
> > desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the 
> company 
> > of these egg-born supannas?
> > Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the Pali 
> Text 
> > Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this afternoon.
> > 
> > metta,
> > Christine

 
14307 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:57am
Subject: Re: Question?

 
  ---
Aghh! I'm shocked:
Chris:"I'll just ask this 
> straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this 
sound a 
> little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?'""

I haven't seen any devas or petas or ghosts - not once. But what 
convinces me it is all true is the size of the universe and that it 
is all recorded in the texts. They scriptures are  so accurate when 
it comes to describing what is real in this fathom lenght body - I 
now know things to be true about that, that I couldn't have imagined 
before learning the Dhamma. 
It seems impossible for me to believe that in this vast universe the 
only beings that exist happen to be the ones I can see - humans and 
animals - a very one-dimensional, earthcentric view I feel.
Sometimes there are trivial points in the commentaries that I wonder 
about, but rarely. And it is peripheral to the main issues - for me 
I have no desire to be born as a naga or suppana.
robert
  
  "christine_forsyth"  wrote:
> Thanks Robert.
> 
> 
> As you say,  the Buddha teaches that we live in this world 
surrounded 
> by Unseen beings of various types. 
> The next two discourses are about Devas of the Gandhabba order who 
> dwell in fragrant roots,  heartwood,  soft-wood,  bark,  shoots,  
> leaves flowers, fruits, sap and scents, and Devas of the Cloud-
> dwelling order (Cool-Cloud Devas, Warm-Cloud Devas, Storm-Cloud 
> Devas, Wind-Cloud Devas, and Rain-Cloud Devas). p1025 p1028
> How delightful! 
> Ummm....   As I'm looking into rebirth at the moment, and seeking 
to 
> discover that what the Buddha taught was exactly what he said and 
he 
> wasn't using poetic language or metaphor, or going along with Folk 
> beliefs so as not to shock the everyday person....I'll just ask 
this 
> straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this 
sound a 
> little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?'  Pixies and 
elves 
> and gnomes, only perhaps more powerful?  It seems that people who 
> lived at that time had experience of the Devas.  Has anyone in 
modern 
> times experienced or seen such beings?  If not, I wonder why not?
> 
> metta,
> Christine
> 
> ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
> <robert> wrote:
> > --- 
> > Dear Christine,
> > The are many types of being in this universe, most of which we 
> > cannot see. I think suppanas are supposed to be very powerful 
> > birdlike creatures that fight with nagas - who are snake like 
> > creatures. It is not considered especially good kamma to be born 
as 
> > one of these, but some people may wish to because of the 
> supernormal 
> > powers that these beings are said to have.
> > As the commentary notes that Buddha taught these suttas so that 
> > those bhikkhus would give up their desire for this type of birth.
> > Robert
> > 
> >  "christine_forsyth"  
wrote:
> > > Hi All,
> > > 
> > > I'm reading Chapter IX of the Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi) page 
> > 1023 '30 
> > > Supannasamyutta' Connected Discourses on Supannas.
> > > Could some one explain what an "egg-born supanna" is please? 
And 
> > why 
> > > would they wish to carry off naga eggs? And why would a 
Bhikkhu 
> > > desire, after the break up of the body, to be reborn in the 
> > company 
> > > of these egg-born supannas?
> > > Nyanatiloka's dictionary doesn't mention this term, and the 
Pali 
> > Text 
> > > Society online dictionary isn't allowing me access this 
afternoon.
> > > 
> > > metta,
> > > Christine

 
14308 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:27am
Subject: Re: Question?

 
  Dear Robert and All,

All very well to joke about being shocked.... :)  After a few 
experiences on different lists, I'm beginning to feel that posting 
messages can be like walking on quicksand. So I fluctuate between 
apologising in advance for nothing much, and jumping in like a bull 
in a china shop. That should probably be 'cow'. :)

This quoted paragraph was just below something I was reading on 
rebirth, and caught my eye.  Would it be fair to say that this could 
be an explanation of  why, for instance, members of this list found 
their way here and feel comfortable with  all the others here?  
Would 'elements' be equivalent to 'accumulations'?  

On p638 of Volume 1 of The Samyutta Nikaya 'The Book of Causation 14 
Dhatusamyutta

"14 (4) " At Savatthi.  "Bhikkhus, it is by way of elements that 
beings come together and unite.  Those of an inferior disposition 
come together and unite with those of an inferior disposition; those 
of a good disposition come together and unite with those of a good 
disposition.  In the past, by way of elements, beings came together 
and united...... In the future, too, by way of elements, beings will 
come together and unite...... Now, too, at present, by way of 
elements, beings come together and unite with those of an inferior 
disposition; those of a good disposition come together and unite with 
those of a good disposition."

metta,
Chris


---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
<robert> wrote:
> ---
> Aghh! I'm shocked:
> Chris:"I'll just ask this 
> > straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this 
> sound a 
> > little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?'""
> 
> I haven't seen any devas or petas or ghosts - not once. But what 
> convinces me it is all true is the size of the universe and that it 
> is all recorded in the texts. They scriptures are  so accurate when 
> it comes to describing what is real in this fathom lenght body - I 
> now know things to be true about that, that I couldn't have 
imagined 
> before learning the Dhamma. 
> It seems impossible for me to believe that in this vast universe 
the 
> only beings that exist happen to be the ones I can see - humans and 
> animals - a very one-dimensional, earthcentric view I feel.
> Sometimes there are trivial points in the commentaries that I 
wonder 
> about, but rarely. And it is peripheral to the main issues - for me 
> I have no desire to be born as a naga or suppana.
> robert
>   
>   "christine_forsyth"  
wrote:
> > Thanks Robert.
> > 
> > 
> > As you say,  the Buddha teaches that we live in this world 
> surrounded 
> > by Unseen beings of various types. 
> > The next two discourses are about Devas of the Gandhabba order 
who 
> > dwell in fragrant roots,  heartwood,  soft-wood,  bark,  shoots,  
> > leaves flowers, fruits, sap and scents, and Devas of the Cloud-
> > dwelling order (Cool-Cloud Devas, Warm-Cloud Devas, Storm-Cloud 
> > Devas, Wind-Cloud Devas, and Rain-Cloud Devas). p1025 p1028
> > How delightful! 
> > Ummm....   As I'm looking into rebirth at the moment, and seeking 
> to 
> > discover that what the Buddha taught was exactly what he said and 
> he 
> > wasn't using poetic language or metaphor, or going along with 
Folk 
> > beliefs so as not to shock the everyday person....I'll just ask 
> this 
> > straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this 
> sound a 
> > little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?'  Pixies and 
> elves 
> > and gnomes, only perhaps more powerful?  It seems that people who 
> > lived at that time had experience of the Devas.  Has anyone in 
> modern 
> > times experienced or seen such beings?  If not, I wonder why not?
> > 
> > metta,
> > Christine
> > 
 
 
 
14309 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:47am
Subject: Sutta References about Rebirth

 
  Dear Group,

I've found the following references to Rebirth(Punabbhava) or Re-
becoming (Upapatti). Perhaps they may be useful to some of you.  I'm 
sure there are lots more references, but I only looked until I had no 
more doubt that the Blessed One taught re-birth as an actual fact, 
not as poetical metaphor, or as a 'kindness' to the uneducated or 
superstitious of his time.  Hope there are no errors in attribution, 
or keyboard errors.  Though I looked these up in hard copy, some may 
be available on line at either:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm
http://www.tipitaka.net/home/sitemap.htm
http://www.serve.com/cmtan/Dhammapada/
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/index.html
In addition, there are those suttas and other writings mentioned in 
this previous message and in  the replies listed at its foot.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14273

metta,
Chris

The Digha Nikaya

"There are some people in the West who are attracted in many ways to 
Buddhism, but who find the idea of rebirth a stumbling-block, either 
because they find it distasteful and/or incredible in itself, or in 
some cases because they find it hard to reconcile with the 'non-self' 
idea.  Some such considerations as any of these sometimes even lead 
people to declare that the Buddha did not actually teach rebirth at 
all, or that if he did so, this was only for popular consumption, 
because his hearers could not have accepted the truth.  All such 
views are based on various kinds of misunderstanding.  It should be 
noted, incidentally, that Buddhists prefer to speak, not of 
reincarnation, but of rebirth.  Reincarnation is the doctrine that 
there is a transmigrating soul or spirit that passes on from life to 
life.  In the Buddhist view we may say, to begin with, that that is 
merely what appears to happen, though in reality no such soul or 
spirit passes on in this way.  In Majjhima Nikaya 38 the monk Sati 
was severely rebuked for declaring that 'this very consciousness' 
transmigrates, whereas in reality a new consciusness arises at 
rebirth dependent on the old.  Nevertheless there is an illusion of 
continuity in much the same wayas there is within this life.  Rebirth 
from life to life is in principle scarcely different from the rebirth 
from moment to moment that goes on in this life.  The point can be 
intellectually grasped, with a greater or less degree of difficulty, 
but it is only at the first path-moment, with the penetration of the 
spurious nature of what we call self, that it is clearly undersood 
without a shadow of doubt remaining."
p. 36 "The Long Discourses of the Buddha" - A translation of the 
Digha Nikaya by Maurice Walshe.
 
DN 12.13 'Lohicca Sutta: About Lohicca'  Good and Bad Teachers.
DN 16.2.6ff 'Mahaparinibbana Sutta The Great Passing' The Buddha's 
Last Days
DN 18.1ff 'Janavasabha Sutta: About Janavasabha' Brahma Addresses the 
Gods
DN 23.2ff 'Payasi Sutta: About Payasi' Debate with a Sceptic
DN 28.5 'Sampasadaniya Sutta: Serene Faith'
DN 33.1.10(40)(41)'Sangiti Sutta: The Chanting Together'
DN 33.3.1(7) 

Majjhima Nikaya

"According to the Buddha's teaching, all beings except the arahants 
are subject to "renewal of being in the future" (punabbhava), that 
is, to rebirth.  Rebirth, in the Buddhist conception, is not 
transmigration of a self or soul but the continuation of a process, a 
flux of becoming in which successive lives are linked together by 
causal transmissioin of influence rather than by substantial 
identity.  The basic causal pattern underlying the process is that 
defined by the teaching of dependent origination, which also 
demonstrates how rebirth is possible without a reincarnating self.
The process of rebirth, the Buddha teaches, exhibits a definite 
lawfulness essentially ethical in character.  This ethical character 
is established by the fundamental dynamism that determines the states 
into which beings are reborn and the circumstances they encounter in 
the course of their lives.  That dynamism is 'kamma', volitional 
action of body, speech, and mind.  Those beings who engage in bad 
actions - actions motivated by the three unwholesome roots of greed, 
hate, and delusion - generate unwholesome kamma that leads them to 
rebirth into lower states of existence and, if it ripens in the human 
world, brings them pain and misfortune.  Those beings who engage in 
good actions - actions motivated by the three wholesome roots of non-
greed, non-hate, and non-delusion - generate wholesome kamma that 
leads them to higher states of existence and ripens in the human 
world as pleasure and good fortune.  Because the deeds  a person 
performs in the course of a single life can be extremely varied, the 
type of rebirth that lies ahead of him can be very unpredictable, as 
the Buddha shows in MN 136.  But despite this empirical variability, 
an invariable law governs the direct relationship between types of 
actions and the types of results they yield, the basic correlations 
being sketched by the Buddha in MN 57 and laid out in greater detail 
in MN 135." (p.45 'The Middle Length Discourses of the'. A New 
translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. Translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli 
and Bhikkhu Bodhi.)

MN 4.29 'Bhayabherava Sutta' Fear and Dread
MN 7.2 'Vatthupama Sutta' Simile of the Cloth
MN 12.37ff 'Mahasihanada Sutta' The Greater Discourse on the Lion's 
Roar
MN 13.15 Mahadukkhakkhandha Sutta 'The Greater Discourse on the Mass 
of Suffering'
MN 40.3 'Cula-Assapura Sutta' The Shorter Discourse at Assapura
MN 41.4ff 'Saleyyaka Sutta' The Brahmins of Sala
MN 41.15ff
MN 45.3 'Culadhammasamadana Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on Ways of 
Undertaking Things
MN 45.5
MN 45.6ff
MN 46.14 'Mahadhammasamadana Sutta' The Greater Discourse on Ways of 
Undertaking Things
MN 46.16ff
MN 50.13 'Maratajjaniya Sutta' The Rebuke to Mara
MN 50.17
MN 57.3 'Kukkuravatika Sutta' The Dog-duty Ascetic
MN 57.5
MN 60.9ff 'Apannaka Sutta' The Incontrovertible Teaching
MN 60.12ff
MN 72.16ff ' Aggivacchagotta Sutta' To Vacchagotta on Fire
MN 84.6 'Madhura Sutta' At Madhura
MN 84.7
MN 110.13 'Culapunnama Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on the Full-moon 
Night
MN 110.24
MN 115.17 'Bahadhatuka Sutta' The Many Kind of Elements'
MN 120.2ff 'Sankahrupapatti Sutta' Reappearance by Aspiration
MN 120.37
MN 127.9 'Anuruddha Sutta' Anuruddha
MN 129.6 'Balapandita Sutta' Fools and Wise Men
MN 129.31
MN 130.2ff 'Devaduta Sutta' The Divine Messengers
MN 135.5ff 'Culakammavibhanga Sutta' The Shorter Exposition of Action
MN 136.8 'Mahakammavibhanga Sutta' The Greater Exposition of Action

The Samyutta Nikaya
Volume One
Page 184 SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 19.(9) Childless
Page 185-8  SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 21 (1) Persons
Page 614-615 SN ''The Book of Causation (Nidanavagga)' 70 (10)(ii) 
Susima
Page 638 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga)13 (3) Dhatusamyutta
Page 674 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga) 9 Kassapasamyutta
Page 1021-29 SN 'The Book of the Aggregates(Khandhavagga)
Volume Two
Page 1287-89 SN 'The Connected Discourses on Women' 37 
Matugamasamyutta
Page 1333-38 SN 'The Connected Discourses to Headmen' 42 
Gamanisamyutta
Page 1392-93 SN 'The Book of the Six Sense Bases' Salayatanavagga
Page 1878-79 SN 'The Great Book (Mahavagga)' Saccasamyutta
Page 1885-88 SN 'The Great Book' Saccasamyutta - 102(1)ff Passing 
Away.... 

'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha - An Anthology of Suttas from the 
Anguttara Nikaya' by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi

III.41 'The Refinement of the Mind - 1'
IV.77 'The Jhanas and Rebirth'
IV.89 'Queen Mallika'
IV.90 'Four Kinds of Kamma'
V.100 'The Benefits of Almsgiving'
V.101 'Five Desirable Things'
VI.123 'Don't Judge Others!'
VII.143 'Seven Bonds of Sexuality'
VIII.163 'Rebirth on account of Giving'
VIII.164 'Ways of Meritorious Action'
X.205 'The Extinction of Kamma'

 
14310 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:52am
Subject: Re: Question?

 
  ---
I think one hundred percent right, Chris. Yes, those who think this 
way do so because of accumulations in the near and distant past - 
and those who think in other ways because of different 
accumulations. Everyone is unique in their accumulations but there 
are broad areas where we (may) have similar ones, and so we of  like 
elements congregate. 
robert
  "christine_forsyth"  wrote:
> Dear Robert and All,
> 
> All very well to joke about being shocked.... :)  After a few 
> experiences on different lists, I'm beginning to feel that posting 
> messages can be like walking on quicksand. So I fluctuate between 
> apologising in advance for nothing much, and jumping in like a 
bull 
> in a china shop. That should probably be 'cow'. :)
> 
> This quoted paragraph was just below something I was reading on 
> rebirth, and caught my eye.  Would it be fair to say that this 
could 
> be an explanation of  why, for instance, members of this list 
found 
> their way here and feel comfortable with  all the others here?  
> Would 'elements' be equivalent to 'accumulations'?  
> 
> On p638 of Volume 1 of The Samyutta Nikaya 'The Book of Causation 
14 
> Dhatusamyutta
> 
> "14 (4) " At Savatthi.  "Bhikkhus, it is by way of elements that 
> beings come together and unite.  Those of an inferior disposition 
> come together and unite with those of an inferior disposition; 
those 
> of a good disposition come together and unite with those of a good 
> disposition.  In the past, by way of elements, beings came 
together 
> and united...... In the future, too, by way of elements, beings 
will 
> come together and unite...... Now, too, at present, by way of 
> elements, beings come together and unite with those of an inferior 
> disposition; those of a good disposition come together and unite 
with 
> those of a good disposition."
> 
> metta,
> Chris
> 
> 
> ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
> <robert> wrote:
> > ---
> > Aghh! I'm shocked:
> > Chris:"I'll just ask this 
> > > straight out and hope I don't offend anyone..... Doesn't this 
> > sound a 
> > > little like 'faeries at the bottom of the garden?'""
> > 
> > I haven't seen any devas or petas or ghosts - not once. But what 
> > convinces me it is all true is the size of the universe and that 
it 
> > is all recorded in the texts. They scriptures are  so accurate 
when 
> > it comes to describing what is real in this fathom lenght body - 
I 
> > now know things to be true about that, that I couldn't have 
> imagined 
> > before learning the Dhamma. 
> > It seems impossible for me to believe that in this vast universe 
> the 
> > only beings that exist happen to be the ones I can see - humans 
and 
> > animals - a very one-dimensional, earthcentric view I feel.
> > Sometimes there are trivial points in the commentaries that I 
> wonder 
> > about, but rarely. And it is peripheral to the main issues - for 
me 
> > I have no desire to be born as a naga or suppana.
> > robert
> >   
> >   "christine_forsyth"  
> wrote:


 
14311 From: frank kuan   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 0:36pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood

 
  Hi Nina,
--- Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> What is power yoga? What is its goal?

Thanks for the excerpt from Sujin's Perfections.
Excellent point about renunciation only being truly
effective from the raw sensory level at guarding the
sense doors and not grasping to sensory experience as
delightful, disagreeable, I, mine...

I don't recall mentioning anything about Power yoga,
but since you ask... Power yoga is a modern derivative
of Astanga Yoga. It preserves the idea of strength and
stamina built from strenuous exercise, but loses much
of the important/crucial subtle aspects of Astanga
Yoga such as bandha control, pranayama (breathing
techniques), gaze, opening the nadis, etc. Basically a
McYoga version of Astanga that satisfies western
mainstream's diluted expectations (physical health) of
yoga. 

Astanga Yoga is Hindu's version of an eightfold path,
a complete spiritual path not just physical exercise,
which shares several common themes with the Buddhist
8fold path. 

My reason for practicing astanga is for the benefits
it brings to physical health (from a holistic
perspective, not just western notion of physical
health) health to complement the mental culture path
from Buddhism. Some spiritual practitioners who only
develop the mind and neglect their physical health
develop higher states of concentration and
consciousness, only to suffer from permanent psychosis
and hallucinations. The astangis and taoist yogis
believe in strenghtening the body sufficiently so that
when qi channels, chakras, start opening, kundalini
awakening, the body is strong enough to handle it when
the supernormal stuff from jhanas start to happen with
corresponding physiological changes.   

-fk



 
14312 From: frank kuan   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 1:23pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rebirth

 
  --- christine_forsyth  wrote:
>   I had always accepted incessant rebirth
> as 
> unquestionedly a  Buddhist Doctrine - but reading
> messages on a multi-
> tradition list, and also on other Theravada lists,
> has given me a 
> shock. Very large numbers of western Buddhists
> regard rebirth merely 
> as a poetic way of expressing the process of
> awakening, and regard 
> awakening itself  as being a metaphor for the
> continuous process of 
> overcoming ignorance. They either reject the
> orthodox view of rebirth 
> totally or are agnostic.  So I feel a need to verify
> that the Buddha 
> specifically taught rebirth, and that he meant
> actual rebirth not 
> using the term as a metaphor for something else.

   I can respect the people who are honest enough to
admit that they don't believe the Buddha on rebirth
yet still find the rest of his teachings useful. Fair
enough. Rebirth sounds pretty incredible. But the
theory that rebirth was used by Buddha as metaphor is
ridiculous. Anyone with average intelligence who reads
the pali suttas can see that the Buddha is
consistently speaking in a plain, straightforward
manner. No trickiness or artful white lies. Not his
style. Analogies and similes are EXPLICITLY explained
when used, not left ambiguously open to fanciful
interpretation. Rebirth is just as hard for people to
believe as Anatta, and if the Buddha had no problem
speaking plainly on Anatta, why would he suddenly
worry about hurting people's feelings or become a
tricky guy using metaphors to preserve people's
cultural beliefs? Anatta is far more shocking than
rebirth! If he's not pulling punches there, he's not
going to be pulling punches on rebirth. 
   The only rational conclusion we can come to if we
desbelieve rebirth is:
1) buddha is wrong about rebirth
2) buddha's stance on rebirth was modified or
incorrectly recorded by compilers of the canon.

   The idea of buddha using rebirth as metaphor is the
completely ignorant and delusional reaction of those
who revere the Buddha and decide to modify it to
conform to their own fantasy of a coherent religion.
It's ok to not believe Buddha. It's ok to doubt the
validity of the canon.  If you think you're
enlightened, start your own religion which has no
rebirth. That's fine. But it's not ok to distort and
propogate a religion to suit your personal fancy.
There's already enough confusion about what is and is
not Buddhism. 

-fk



 
14313 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 3:14pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Rebirth

 
  Hi Frank,

Thanks for this post, which came with a strong dose of common sense.  
I often feel it isn't rebirth so much, but kamma that scares some 
people, and the only way to enfeeble kamma is to alter, scramble, and 
change the meaning of what the Buddha taught on rebirth, then one can 
alter, scramble and change the meaning of kamma.  If there is only 
this very life, then there are just the usual legal limits to abide 
by on behaviour, and pretty much no restraints on speech.
The fact is that irrespective of what people know, or don't know, 
whether or not the teachings of a Buddha are extant -   the 
inexorable and unpitying working out of the natural laws of existence 
rolls on.

metta,
Chris

---  frank kuan  wrote:
> 
> --- christine_forsyth  wrote:
> >   I had always accepted incessant rebirth
> > as 
> > unquestionedly a  Buddhist Doctrine - but reading
> > messages on a multi-
> > tradition list, and also on other Theravada lists,
> > has given me a 
> > shock. Very large numbers of western Buddhists
> > regard rebirth merely 
> > as a poetic way of expressing the process of
> > awakening, and regard 
> > awakening itself  as being a metaphor for the
> > continuous process of 
> > overcoming ignorance. They either reject the
> > orthodox view of rebirth 
> > totally or are agnostic.  So I feel a need to verify
> > that the Buddha 
> > specifically taught rebirth, and that he meant
> > actual rebirth not 
> > using the term as a metaphor for something else.
> 
>    I can respect the people who are honest enough to
> admit that they don't believe the Buddha on rebirth
> yet still find the rest of his teachings useful. Fair
> enough. Rebirth sounds pretty incredible. But the
> theory that rebirth was used by Buddha as metaphor is
> ridiculous. Anyone with average intelligence who reads
> the pali suttas can see that the Buddha is
> consistently speaking in a plain, straightforward
> manner. No trickiness or artful white lies. Not his
> style. Analogies and similes are EXPLICITLY explained
> when used, not left ambiguously open to fanciful
> interpretation. Rebirth is just as hard for people to
> believe as Anatta, and if the Buddha had no problem
> speaking plainly on Anatta, why would he suddenly
> worry about hurting people's feelings or become a
> tricky guy using metaphors to preserve people's
> cultural beliefs? Anatta is far more shocking than
> rebirth! If he's not pulling punches there, he's not
> going to be pulling punches on rebirth. 
>    The only rational conclusion we can come to if we
> desbelieve rebirth is:
> 1) buddha is wrong about rebirth
> 2) buddha's stance on rebirth was modified or
> incorrectly recorded by compilers of the canon.
> 
>    The idea of buddha using rebirth as metaphor is the
> completely ignorant and delusional reaction of those
> who revere the Buddha and decide to modify it to
> conform to their own fantasy of a coherent religion.
> It's ok to not believe Buddha. It's ok to doubt the
> validity of the canon.  If you think you're
> enlightened, start your own religion which has no
> rebirth. That's fine. But it's not ok to distort and
> propogate a religion to suit your personal fancy.
> There's already enough confusion about what is and is
> not Buddhism. 
> 
> -fk

 
14314 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:10pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics

 
  Dear Larry,
I just have a few remarks.

op 13-07-2002 03:02 schreef <> op <>:
> 
L: First, what we are talking about is body consciousness, a nama. Body
> consciousness is different from the other physical senses in that it can
> experience pleasure and pain while seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting
> can only experience neutral feeling.
N: bodyconscsiouness does not experience pleasure and pain, it only
experiences hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. It is
accompanied by feeling, pleasant or unpleasant which also experiences the
same objects as body-consciousness.
Seeing does not experience feeling, it only sees, experiences visible
object, but it is accompanied by indifferent feeling.
> 
L: One other thing of interest, the pleasantness of a pleasant taste is
> actually a pleasant mental feeling.
N: Shall we say, it conditions pleasant mental feeling? It could not be the
same, because when speaking about taste, pleasant or unpleasant, we speak
about rupa.  
L:  Also, 5-door feelings are results of kamma and mind door feelings
> motivate kamma.
N: You remember tadarammana citta, registering-consciousness,  which is
vipakacitta, this can arise in a mind-door process. It hangs on to the
object. 
We oculd not say that feeling motivates kamma. Volition or intention is
kamma, and it is accompanied by feeling which just feels, nothing else.
Best wishes, 
from Nina.

 
14315 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:10pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] problems in daily life, to Ruth.

 
  Dear Ruth, It is as Robert said, leave it to conditions.
Rob: <I think gradually we learn to see - by means of the Dhamma- that
every moment is the same: just conditioned phenomenena. When there
is any clinging to place or time or formal meditation then there is
no understanding of the moments that are happening right now; rather
there is wishing that things could be other than they are.>

N:It depends on kamma who is on our path, and whether this is agreeable or
disagreeable. Our reactions again are also conditioned by other factors: our
accumulated inclinations, good or bad. It may seem that we can plan this or
that or that parents plan for us, but in reality there are only conditioned
phenomena rolling on. You may say, I shall marry, but you may not, or the
opposite may happen. It only seems that we can act or plan, but in reality
this is not so. 
There were many worries in the past, and these are gone now. There are
worries today, but then these pass as well. When tomorrow has come you may
laugh about today's problems. Past lives, the present life, future lives, we
are in the cycle of birth and death, and thus we have to have dukkha,
suffering. But understanding can be developed. Not the outward circumstances
are important, these are not the real problems, but our attitude: we make
the problems, but understanding can be developed, that is the remedy.
You use the word student, a good word, we are students of realities. In the
first sutta of the M.S. you are reading, we read about a monk who is a
learner: even enlightened ones who are not yet arahats are learners, sekha,
or trainees. The arahat has nothing more to learn, he is asekha. For us: we
are only beginning to study.
Let us study on,
Nina.    

op 13-07-2002 00:15 schreef Ruth Klein op Ruth:

In addition, though I am
> happy whith where I am in life, I very easily get caught up in the idea of
> finding some 'special' person with whom to share my life.  Quite often I
> can't tell if it's truely my own desire, or a societal/parental pressure.  I
> feel most lonely when I'm trying to separate what is real from what is
> conditioned thought and my mind is not often quiet enough to find out.




 
14316 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:17pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rebirth

 
  Hi, Frank -

       My sentiments exactly.

With metta,
Howard


> I can respect the people who are honest enough to
> admit that they don't believe the Buddha on rebirth
> yet still find the rest of his teachings useful. Fair
> enough. Rebirth sounds pretty incredible. But the
> theory that rebirth was used by Buddha as metaphor is
> ridiculous. Anyone with average intelligence who reads
> the pali suttas can see that the Buddha is
> consistently speaking in a plain, straightforward
> manner. No trickiness or artful white lies. Not his
> style. Analogies and similes are EXPLICITLY explained
> when used, not left ambiguously open to fanciful
> interpretation. Rebirth is just as hard for people to
> believe as Anatta, and if the Buddha had no problem
> speaking plainly on Anatta, why would he suddenly
> worry about hurting people's feelings or become a
> tricky guy using metaphors to preserve people's
> cultural beliefs? Anatta is far more shocking than
> rebirth! If he's not pulling punches there, he's not
> going to be pulling punches on rebirth. 
>    The only rational conclusion we can come to if we
> desbelieve rebirth is:
> 1) buddha is wrong about rebirth
> 2) buddha's stance on rebirth was modified or
> incorrectly recorded by compilers of the canon.
> 
>    The idea of buddha using rebirth as metaphor is the
> completely ignorant and delusional reaction of those
> who revere the Buddha and decide to modify it to
> conform to their own fantasy of a coherent religion.
> It's ok to not believe Buddha. It's ok to doubt the
> validity of the canon.  If you think you're
> enlightened, start your own religion which has no
> rebirth. That's fine. But it's not ok to distort and
> propogate a religion to suit your personal fancy.
> There's already enough confusion about what is and is
> not Buddhism. 
> 
> -fk
> 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14317 From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:41pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta References about Rebirth

 
  A fine and useful piece of work.  Many thanks!

With metta,
Visakha

At 03:47 AM 7/14/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear Group,
>
>I've found the following references to Rebirth(Punabbhava) or Re-
>becoming (Upapatti). Perhaps they may be useful to some of you.  I'm
>sure there are lots more references, but I only looked until I had no
>more doubt that the Blessed One taught re-birth as an actual fact,
>not as poetical metaphor, or as a 'kindness' to the uneducated or
>superstitious of his time.  Hope there are no errors in attribution,
>or keyboard errors.  Though I looked these up in hard copy, some may
>be available on line at either:
>http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm
>http://www.tipitaka.net/home/sitemap.htm
>http://www.serve.com/cmtan/Dhammapada/
>http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/index.html
>In addition, there are those suttas and other writings mentioned in
>this previous message and in  the replies listed at its foot.
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14273
>
>metta,
>Chris
>
>The Digha Nikaya
>
>"There are some people in the West who are attracted in many ways to
>Buddhism, but who find the idea of rebirth a stumbling-block, either
>because they find it distasteful and/or incredible in itself, or in
>some cases because they find it hard to reconcile with the 'non-self'
>idea.  Some such considerations as any of these sometimes even lead
>people to declare that the Buddha did not actually teach rebirth at
>all, or that if he did so, this was only for popular consumption,
>because his hearers could not have accepted the truth.  All such
>views are based on various kinds of misunderstanding.  It should be
>noted, incidentally, that Buddhists prefer to speak, not of
>reincarnation, but of rebirth.  Reincarnation is the doctrine that
>there is a transmigrating soul or spirit that passes on from life to
>life.  In the Buddhist view we may say, to begin with, that that is
>merely what appears to happen, though in reality no such soul or
>spirit passes on in this way.  In Majjhima Nikaya 38 the monk Sati
>was severely rebuked for declaring that 'this very consciousness'
>transmigrates, whereas in reality a new consciusness arises at
>rebirth dependent on the old.  Nevertheless there is an illusion of
>continuity in much the same wayas there is within this life.  Rebirth
>from life to life is in principle scarcely different from the rebirth
>from moment to moment that goes on in this life.  The point can be
>intellectually grasped, with a greater or less degree of difficulty,
>but it is only at the first path-moment, with the penetration of the
>spurious nature of what we call self, that it is clearly undersood
>without a shadow of doubt remaining."
>p. 36 "The Long Discourses of the Buddha" - A translation of the
>Digha Nikaya by Maurice Walshe.
>
>DN 12.13 'Lohicca Sutta: About Lohicca'  Good and Bad Teachers.
>DN 16.2.6ff 'Mahaparinibbana Sutta The Great Passing' The Buddha's
>Last Days
>DN 18.1ff 'Janavasabha Sutta: About Janavasabha' Brahma Addresses the
>Gods
>DN 23.2ff 'Payasi Sutta: About Payasi' Debate with a Sceptic
>DN 28.5 'Sampasadaniya Sutta: Serene Faith'
>DN 33.1.10(40)(41)'Sangiti Sutta: The Chanting Together'
>DN 33.3.1(7)
>
>Majjhima Nikaya
>
>"According to the Buddha's teaching, all beings except the arahants
>are subject to "renewal of being in the future" (punabbhava), that
>is, to rebirth.  Rebirth, in the Buddhist conception, is not
>transmigration of a self or soul but the continuation of a process, a
>flux of becoming in which successive lives are linked together by
>causal transmissioin of influence rather than by substantial
>identity.  The basic causal pattern underlying the process is that
>defined by the teaching of dependent origination, which also
>demonstrates how rebirth is possible without a reincarnating self.
>The process of rebirth, the Buddha teaches, exhibits a definite
>lawfulness essentially ethical in character.  This ethical character
>is established by the fundamental dynamism that determines the states
>into which beings are reborn and the circumstances they encounter in
>the course of their lives.  That dynamism is 'kamma', volitional
>action of body, speech, and mind.  Those beings who engage in bad
>actions - actions motivated by the three unwholesome roots of greed,
>hate, and delusion - generate unwholesome kamma that leads them to
>rebirth into lower states of existence and, if it ripens in the human
>world, brings them pain and misfortune.  Those beings who engage in
>good actions - actions motivated by the three wholesome roots of non-
>greed, non-hate, and non-delusion - generate wholesome kamma that
>leads them to higher states of existence and ripens in the human
>world as pleasure and good fortune.  Because the deeds  a person
>performs in the course of a single life can be extremely varied, the
>type of rebirth that lies ahead of him can be very unpredictable, as
>the Buddha shows in MN 136.  But despite this empirical variability,
>an invariable law governs the direct relationship between types of
>actions and the types of results they yield, the basic correlations
>being sketched by the Buddha in MN 57 and laid out in greater detail
>in MN 135." (p.45 'The Middle Length Discourses of the'. A New
>translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. Translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli
>and Bhikkhu Bodhi.)
>
>MN 4.29 'Bhayabherava Sutta' Fear and Dread
>MN 7.2 'Vatthupama Sutta' Simile of the Cloth
>MN 12.37ff 'Mahasihanada Sutta' The Greater Discourse on the Lion's
>Roar
>MN 13.15 Mahadukkhakkhandha Sutta 'The Greater Discourse on the Mass
>of Suffering'
>MN 40.3 'Cula-Assapura Sutta' The Shorter Discourse at Assapura
>MN 41.4ff 'Saleyyaka Sutta' The Brahmins of Sala
>MN 41.15ff
>MN 45.3 'Culadhammasamadana Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on Ways of
>Undertaking Things
>MN 45.5
>MN 45.6ff
>MN 46.14 'Mahadhammasamadana Sutta' The Greater Discourse on Ways of
>Undertaking Things
>MN 46.16ff
>MN 50.13 'Maratajjaniya Sutta' The Rebuke to Mara
>MN 50.17
>MN 57.3 'Kukkuravatika Sutta' The Dog-duty Ascetic
>MN 57.5
>MN 60.9ff 'Apannaka Sutta' The Incontrovertible Teaching
>MN 60.12ff
>MN 72.16ff ' Aggivacchagotta Sutta' To Vacchagotta on Fire
>MN 84.6 'Madhura Sutta' At Madhura
>MN 84.7
>MN 110.13 'Culapunnama Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on the Full-moon
>Night
>MN 110.24
>MN 115.17 'Bahadhatuka Sutta' The Many Kind of Elements'
>MN 120.2ff 'Sankahrupapatti Sutta' Reappearance by Aspiration
>MN 120.37
>MN 127.9 'Anuruddha Sutta' Anuruddha
>MN 129.6 'Balapandita Sutta' Fools and Wise Men
>MN 129.31
>MN 130.2ff 'Devaduta Sutta' The Divine Messengers
>MN 135.5ff 'Culakammavibhanga Sutta' The Shorter Exposition of Action
>MN 136.8 'Mahakammavibhanga Sutta' The Greater Exposition of Action
>
>The Samyutta Nikaya
>Volume One
>Page 184 SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 19.(9) Childless
>Page 185-8  SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 21 (1) Persons
>Page 614-615 SN ''The Book of Causation (Nidanavagga)' 70 (10)(ii)
>Susima
>Page 638 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga)13 (3) Dhatusamyutta
>Page 674 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga) 9 Kassapasamyutta
>Page 1021-29 SN 'The Book of the Aggregates(Khandhavagga)
>Volume Two
>Page 1287-89 SN 'The Connected Discourses on Women' 37
>Matugamasamyutta
>Page 1333-38 SN 'The Connected Discourses to Headmen' 42
>Gamanisamyutta
>Page 1392-93 SN 'The Book of the Six Sense Bases' Salayatanavagga
>Page 1878-79 SN 'The Great Book (Mahavagga)' Saccasamyutta
>Page 1885-88 SN 'The Great Book' Saccasamyutta - 102(1)ff Passing
>Away....
>
>'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha - An Anthology of Suttas from the
>Anguttara Nikaya' by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi
>
>III.41 'The Refinement of the Mind - 1'
>IV.77 'The Jhanas and Rebirth'
>IV.89 'Queen Mallika'
>IV.90 'Four Kinds of Kamma'
>V.100 'The Benefits of Almsgiving'
>V.101 'Five Desirable Things'
>VI.123 'Don't Judge Others!'
>VII.143 'Seven Bonds of Sexuality'
>VIII.163 'Rebirth on account of Giving'
>VIII.164 'Ways of Meritorious Action'
>X.205 'The Extinction of Kamma'
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Please visit our newly established websites!

Buddhist Relief Mission  <http://www.brelief.org/>
Burmese Relief Center--USA  <http://www.brelief.net/>
Relief Notes 2002 <http://home.earthlink.net/~brelief/>

 
14318 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 4:58pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta References about Rebirth

 
  Hi, Christine -

       Thank you for the work you put into this post! You have done a great 
service, I think, in putting forward the case for the Buddhist view of 
"rebirth". I think there are several issues of importance (and several 
dangers involved) in this matter. 
       One danger in the matter of rebirth (which I think is a misnomer, but 
which I shall nonetheless render without quotes! ;-) is that it is a concept 
easily infected by belief in self. As some of your quoted material points 
out, "heresies" such as Sati's easily arise, views which see rebirth as the 
situation of "a consciousness" moving from body to body or realm to realm, 
like a person travelling from place to place. This is a Brahmanical notion 
with no genuine relation to the Dhamma. Sometimes, the atta "infection" here 
may be quite subtle. Though one may deny that "a consciousness" continues, 
one still may have in the back of ones mind that, somehow, ones "identity" 
continues. Now, that is still a clinging to self. In fact, nothing at all 
continues. Current conditions, including current kamma and kammic 
accumulations result in the arising of subsequent conditions. This occurs 
from moment to moment as well as over gaps in time. But nothing, neither "a 
consciousness", nor an "identity", nor any core of any sort continues or is 
reborn. Anicca and paticcasamupada are the facts, but they are easily 
misconstrued.  Rebirth serving as a repository for atta belief is one danger.
       A second, closely related danger, is bhava tanha, the craving for 
continued existence as an entity/identity/person/being. This is rooted in a  
belief and sense of self, and it may be the most tenacious of all cravings. 
It can be very subtle. It can seem to us that we have *no belief* in a self 
at all, yet this craving persists. In fact, even a stream enterer, who is 
without belief in self, still has the *sense* of self, and a subtle craving 
for existence remains. The belief in rebirth, though it needn't do so, is 
still likely to play into the subtle craving for being of the non-arahant, 
and, most especially of the worldling. So, bhava tanha is a danger.
       The opposite dangers exist as well. One can believe in a kind of 
annihilationist rebirth. That is, one can think (or, better, "feel") that one 

truly exists now as an entity/identity/person/being, that this person is "cut 

off" entirely at death, and then another "real person" is born somewhere (and 

some place) else, with that "real person" being the spiritual ancestor of the 

first. In this case, instead of having substantial continuation, one has 
complete annihilation of a real being followed by later birth of a distinctly 

separate real being. This view is a separatist, annihilationist view, and it 
serves as basis for craving for nonexistence, for escape by annihilation. 
This is the opposite side of the coin from the first view. It is the other 
extreme which the middle way of dependent arising avoids. In reality, there 
is no real being or entity or person or identity that exists even from moment 

to moment, and no real being later arises. There are just fleeting, empty 
conditions arising and ceasing, and serving as basis for the arising of 
subsequent formations.
       So, the foregoing are disclaimers. But those disclaimers aside, the 
Buddha did teach the continuation of the process of conditionality beyond the 

limit of a single "lifetime" and beyond the limit of a single realm of 
experience. He did teach it. I do believe it: Never did he teach the 
termination of that process except in the attaining of final nibbana. But 
belief in it is not the sine qua non of being a Buddhist, nor of practicing 
the Dhamma. In fact, a belief in rebirth can sometimes be more of an 
impediment than a disbelief - because the dangers are considerable.

With metta,
Howard



In a message dated 7/13/02 11:48:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Christine writes:


> Dear Group,
> 
> I've found the following references to Rebirth(Punabbhava) or Re-
> becoming (Upapatti). Perhaps they may be useful to some of you.  I'm 
> sure there are lots more references, but I only looked until I had no 
> more doubt that the Blessed One taught re-birth as an actual fact, 
> not as poetical metaphor, or as a 'kindness' to the uneducated or 
> superstitious of his time.  Hope there are no errors in attribution, 
> or keyboard errors.  Though I looked these up in hard copy, some may 
> be available on line at either:
> http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm
> http://www.tipitaka.net/home/sitemap.htm
> http://www.serve.com/cmtan/Dhammapada/
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/index.html
> In addition, there are those suttas and other writings mentioned in 
> this previous message and in  the replies listed at its foot.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14273
> 
> metta,
> Chris
> 
> The Digha Nikaya
> 
> "There are some people in the West who are attracted in many ways to 
> Buddhism, but who find the idea of rebirth a stumbling-block, either 
> because they find it distasteful and/or incredible in itself, or in 
> some cases because they find it hard to reconcile with the 'non-self' 
> idea.  Some such considerations as any of these sometimes even lead 
> people to declare that the Buddha did not actually teach rebirth at 
> all, or that if he did so, this was only for popular consumption, 
> because his hearers could not have accepted the truth.  All such 
> views are based on various kinds of misunderstanding.  It should be 
> noted, incidentally, that Buddhists prefer to speak, not of 
> reincarnation, but of rebirth.  Reincarnation is the doctrine that 
> there is a transmigrating soul or spirit that passes on from life to 
> life.  In the Buddhist view we may say, to begin with, that that is 
> merely what appears to happen, though in reality no such soul or 
> spirit passes on in this way.  In Majjhima Nikaya 38 the monk Sati 
> was severely rebuked for declaring that 'this very consciousness' 
> transmigrates, whereas in reality a new consciusness arises at 
> rebirth dependent on the old.  Nevertheless there is an illusion of 
> continuity in much the same wayas there is within this life.  Rebirth 
> from life to life is in principle scarcely different from the rebirth 
> from moment to moment that goes on in this life.  The point can be 
> intellectually grasped, with a greater or less degree of difficulty, 
> but it is only at the first path-moment, with the penetration of the 
> spurious nature of what we call self, that it is clearly undersood 
> without a shadow of doubt remaining."
> p. 36 "The Long Discourses of the Buddha" - A translation of the 
> Digha Nikaya by Maurice Walshe.
> 
> DN 12.13 'Lohicca Sutta: About Lohicca'  Good and Bad Teachers.
> DN 16.2.6ff 'Mahaparinibbana Sutta The Great Passing' The Buddha's 
> Last Days
> DN 18.1ff 'Janavasabha Sutta: About Janavasabha' Brahma Addresses the 
> Gods
> DN 23.2ff 'Payasi Sutta: About Payasi' Debate with a Sceptic
> DN 28.5 'Sampasadaniya Sutta: Serene Faith'
> DN 33.1.10(40)(41)'Sangiti Sutta: The Chanting Together'
> DN 33.3.1(7) 
> 
> Majjhima Nikaya
> 
> "According to the Buddha's teaching, all beings except the arahants 
> are subject to "renewal of being in the future" (punabbhava), that 
> is, to rebirth.  Rebirth, in the Buddhist conception, is not 
> transmigration of a self or soul but the continuation of a process, a 
> flux of becoming in which successive lives are linked together by 
> causal transmissioin of influence rather than by substantial 
> identity.  The basic causal pattern underlying the process is that 
> defined by the teaching of dependent origination, which also 
> demonstrates how rebirth is possible without a reincarnating self.
> The process of rebirth, the Buddha teaches, exhibits a definite 
> lawfulness essentially ethical in character.  This ethical character 
> is established by the fundamental dynamism that determines the states 
> into which beings are reborn and the circumstances they encounter in 
> the course of their lives.  That dynamism is 'kamma', volitional 
> action of body, speech, and mind.  Those beings who engage in bad 
> actions - actions motivated by the three unwholesome roots of greed, 
> hate, and delusion - generate unwholesome kamma that leads them to 
> rebirth into lower states of existence and, if it ripens in the human 
> world, brings them pain and misfortune.  Those beings who engage in 
> good actions - actions motivated by the three wholesome roots of non-
> greed, non-hate, and non-delusion - generate wholesome kamma that 
> leads them to higher states of existence and ripens in the human 
> world as pleasure and good fortune.  Because the deeds  a person 
> performs in the course of a single life can be extremely varied, the 
> type of rebirth that lies ahead of him can be very unpredictable, as 
> the Buddha shows in MN 136.  But despite this empirical variability, 
> an invariable law governs the direct relationship between types of 
> actions and the types of results they yield, the basic correlations 
> being sketched by the Buddha in MN 57 and laid out in greater detail 
> in MN 135." (p.45 'The Middle Length Discourses of the'. A New 
> translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. Translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli 
> and Bhikkhu Bodhi.)
> 
> MN 4.29 'Bhayabherava Sutta' Fear and Dread
> MN 7.2 'Vatthupama Sutta' Simile of the Cloth
> MN 12.37ff 'Mahasihanada Sutta' The Greater Discourse on the Lion's 
> Roar
> MN 13.15 Mahadukkhakkhandha Sutta 'The Greater Discourse on the Mass 
> of Suffering'
> MN 40.3 'Cula-Assapura Sutta' The Shorter Discourse at Assapura
> MN 41.4ff 'Saleyyaka Sutta' The Brahmins of Sala
> MN 41.15ff
> MN 45.3 'Culadhammasamadana Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on Ways of 
> Undertaking Things
> MN 45.5
> MN 45.6ff
> MN 46.14 'Mahadhammasamadana Sutta' The Greater Discourse on Ways of 
> Undertaking Things
> MN 46.16ff
> MN 50.13 'Maratajjaniya Sutta' The Rebuke to Mara
> MN 50.17
> MN 57.3 'Kukkuravatika Sutta' The Dog-duty Ascetic
> MN 57.5
> MN 60.9ff 'Apannaka Sutta' The Incontrovertible Teaching
> MN 60.12ff
> MN 72.16ff ' Aggivacchagotta Sutta' To Vacchagotta on Fire
> MN 84.6 'Madhura Sutta' At Madhura
> MN 84.7
> MN 110.13 'Culapunnama Sutta' The Shorter Discourse on the Full-moon 
> Night
> MN 110.24
> MN 115.17 'Bahadhatuka Sutta' The Many Kind of Elements'
> MN 120.2ff 'Sankahrupapatti Sutta' Reappearance by Aspiration
> MN 120.37
> MN 127.9 'Anuruddha Sutta' Anuruddha
> MN 129.6 'Balapandita Sutta' Fools and Wise Men
> MN 129.31
> MN 130.2ff 'Devaduta Sutta' The Divine Messengers
> MN 135.5ff 'Culakammavibhanga Sutta' The Shorter Exposition of Action
> MN 136.8 'Mahakammavibhanga Sutta' The Greater Exposition of Action
> 
> The Samyutta Nikaya
> Volume One
> Page 184 SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 19.(9) Childless
> Page 185-8  SN 'The Book with Verses (Sagathavagga)' 21 (1) Persons
> Page 614-615 SN ''The Book of Causation (Nidanavagga)' 70 (10)(ii) 
> Susima
> Page 638 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga)13 (3) Dhatusamyutta
> Page 674 SN 'The Book of Causation(Nidanavagga) 9 Kassapasamyutta
> Page 1021-29 SN 'The Book of the Aggregates(Khandhavagga)
> Volume Two
> Page 1287-89 SN 'The Connected Discourses on Women' 37 
> Matugamasamyutta
> Page 1333-38 SN 'The Connected Discourses to Headmen' 42 
> Gamanisamyutta
> Page 1392-93 SN 'The Book of the Six Sense Bases' Salayatanavagga
> Page 1878-79 SN 'The Great Book (Mahavagga)' Saccasamyutta
> Page 1885-88 SN 'The Great Book' Saccasamyutta - 102(1)ff Passing 
> Away.... 
> 
> 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha - An Anthology of Suttas from the 
> Anguttara Nikaya' by Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi
> 
> III.41 'The Refinement of the Mind - 1'
> IV.77 'The Jhanas and Rebirth'
> IV.89 'Queen Mallika'
> IV.90 'Four Kinds of Kamma'
> V.100 'The Benefits of Almsgiving'
> V.101 'Five Desirable Things'
> VI.123 'Don't Judge Others!'
> VII.143 'Seven Bonds of Sexuality'
> VIII.163 'Rebirth on account of Giving'
> VIII.164 'Ways of Meritorious Action'
> X.205 'The Extinction of Kamma'
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14319 From: goglerr   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:50pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation

 
  ---  Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Goggy
> 
> I enjoyed reading your very informative reply to Christine.
> 
> In your reply you mention the 5 benefits of walking meditation as 
given by
> the Buddha.  As you may have seen, the subject of walking 
meditation has
> come up in another thread with Howard.  Do you have a reference to 
the
> sutta where the 5 benefits are mentioned?  I would like to read 
more about
> it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jon
> 


Hello Jon,
So sorry to reply u this late. You see, I was out of town for more 
than a week and I just got back today. I'm trying to catch up with 
all the messages. 

Well, the sutta is in Anguttara Nikaya, III, 29. It was translated as 
alley-walk discourse in the PTS. I find that this translation is not 
so good. If u could look up in the Pali text would be better. 

Goglerr

 
14320 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:51pm
Subject: Perfections Ch 2, no. 10

 
  Perfections Ch 2, no. 10:

Some people believe that when they give things away their possessions will
vanish, but in reality, it is already in the nature of possessions to
vanish. No matter whether we give or do not give, when it is the right time
for our possessions to vanish, they will disappear. Some people who have
many possessions fear that if they do not share them out they will vanish,
and therefore, they believe that they should rather give them away. When
there are calamities caused by fire, inundation, robbers, or when
possessions are confiscated by kings, one may regret it that one did not
give things away. We can see that possessions do not vanish because of
giving, but that it depends on kamma whether one has possessions or whether
one loses them. 
It is most difficult to develop the perfections, even though one has
listened to the Dhamma and learnt much about the perfections. It depends on
the capacity of each individual to what degree he can develop kusala. The
perfections should very gradually be developed together with paññå, they
should be developed time and again. We know that this is necessary if we
realize that we have many defilements and that it is difficult to develop
the paññå that can eradicate them. Therefore, during each life defilements
should gradually be eliminated, so that the four noble Truths can be
realizied when one becomes a streamwinner, sotåpanna. Then one has reached
the first stage of enlightenment, and one will not be reborn more than seven
times. 
We should know what kind of paññå accompanies the perfection of generosity.
The Book of Analysis (the second Book of the Abhidhamma), in Ch 16,
Classification of Knowledge, 325) explains about different kinds of paññå,
such as wisdom by means of thinking, wisdom by means of hearing, wisdom by
means of giving, wisdom by means of síla 6). We read about wisdom by means
of giving (dånamayå paññå):

...Concerning giving, the achieving of giving, that which arises is wisdom,
understanding...

The ³Dispeller of Delusion² (the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, in Ch
16, 412) explains that understanding associated with the intention or
volition (cetanå) of giving is ³understanding based on giving² or
³understanding by means of giving² (dånamayå paññå).
When we read this we should investigate in detail the paññå which is
accompanied by the volition or intention of giving (cetanå of dåna). Paññå
cannot arise with akusala citta, it cannot arise when someone expects a
result.  
We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion²:

...that understanding which arises associated in this way with the volition
of giving, this is called ³understanding based on giving² (dånamayå paññå).
But that has three forms, namely, prior volition, volition of relinquishing
and subsequent volition, according as it arises in one who thinks: ³I shall
give a gift², in one giving a gift or in one reviewing after having given a
gift.

The ³Dispeller of Delusion² shows here in detail when paññå accompanies the
kusala cittas that are intent on generosity. Kusala citta can be
unaccompanied by paññå or accompanied by paññå. Kusala citta of the sense
sphere accompanied by paññå cetasika (mahå-kusala citta ñånasampayutta 7)
can be kusala citta of the level of dåna, of síla, or of bhåvanå, mental
development, including samatha and satipatthåna, which is the development of
vipassanå. When we develop the perfection of generosity, the aim should be
the correct understanding of realities as they are, without any expectation
of a result for ourselves. This is the condition for paññå which is
understanding based on dåna (dånamayå paññå).

Footnotes:
6. I inserted the text of the ³Book of Analysis².
7. Mahå-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, are classified as
ñåùa vippayutta, unaccompanied by paññå or ñåùa sampayutta, accompanied by
paññå; ñåùa means paññå.





 
14321 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:51pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta References about Rebirth

 
  Dear Christine,
I really appreciate your thorough study and references about rebirth,
anumodana,
Nina. 

op 14-07-2002 05:47 schreef christine_forsyth op Christine:
> 
> I've found the following references to Rebirth(Punabbhava) or Re-
> becoming (Upapatti).

 
14322 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:51pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Frankfood

 
  Dear Frank,
Thank you for the explanation. As A. Sujin told me in former days, it is
also wisdom to look after the body.
Nina. 

op 14-07-2002 06:36 schreef frank kuan op <>:

> Thanks for the excerpt from Sujin's Perfections.
> Excellent point about renunciation only being truly
> effective from the raw sensory level at guarding the
> sense doors and not grasping to sensory experience as
> delightful, disagreeable, I, mine...

> Astanga Yoga is Hindu's version of an eightfold path,
> a complete spiritual path not just physical exercise,
> which shares several common themes with the Buddhist
> 8fold path. 
> 
> My reason for practicing astanga is for the benefits
> it brings to physical health (from a holistic
> perspective, not just western notion of physical
> health) health to complement the mental culture path
> from Buddhism. Some spiritual practitioners who only
> develop the mind and neglect their physical health
> develop higher states of concentration and
> consciousness, only to suffer from permanent psychosis
> and hallucinations.

 
14323 From: abhidhammika  <Suan> 
Date: Sun Jul 14, 2002 11:22pm
Subject: Saha And Saddhi.m With Some Translations

 
  Dear DSG Pali Friends

I have just posted the following to reply the request of Bill Strider
regarding the uses of saha and saddhi.m. in Pali Group.

I hope you find it useful, too.

Suan

--------------------------



Dear Bill Strider,(and other Pali Friends)

How are you?

You wrote:

"Both saha and saddhi.m are used with instrumental case
nouns to mean "with."

Are these two words entirely interchangeable, or are there
situations where one of them is more appropriate than the
other?"

Generally, they are interchangeable.

However, when saha has the meaning of being filled, adorned, dressed, 
covered, or complete with, only saha is more appropriate than 
saddhi.m. 

"Saha iti sampannatthe ca". Chapter 8, Catupadavibhaaga, Nipaatapada, 
Saddaniiti Suttamaalaa By Sayadaw Aggavamsa Of Myanmar.

"Saha is also used in the sense of being complete with."

Sayadaw gave the following quote from Majjhimanikaaya.    

 "(A.t.thi tacena onaddham,[my addition]) saha vatthebhi sobhati." 
Section 302, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya.
          
"(The body), being built with bones and skin, and covered with 
clothes, looks good."

I hope you find the above information helpful.


With kind regards,

Suan Lu Zaw

http://www.bodhiology.org/

 
 
14324 From: searchttt   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 0:47am
Subject: new !

 
  Hello !

I'm new to the list.

A fe words to introduce myself.

I'm 42 years old and live in Belgium (in the "French-talking" part 
of the country).

I'm interested in spirituality in general.

As far as buddhism is concerned, on an intelletual point of view, I 
will simply say that I've read many books written by buddhists 
from various paths.  I've had the opportunity to discuss with 
many buddhists.

On a practical point of view, I praticed yoga meditation (non 
buddhist), zazen with teachers or monks. For a rather short time, 
I've practiced vipassana.

best regards.

Jean-François

 
14325 From: robmoult   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:00am
Subject: Also new to group

 
  Not familiar with "group ediquitte", but I saw that a new user 
recently introduced himself, so I will do the same.

I am Canadian, but live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. For the past 10+ 
years, I have been attending the Brickfields Vihara, home of Ven. 
Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda.

Each Sunday, I teach an intoductory Abhidhamma class to about 75 
Chinese devotees. We use Nina van Gorkom's book "Abhidhamma in Daily 
Life" and another book of the same title written by Ashin 
Janakabhivamsa.

I get asked some interesting questions in class, so I may be posting 
them here to get answers.

I see that there have been some 14000 messages posted in this group, 
so I will be doing some back reading to improve my understanding and 
come up with interesting discussion topics for class.

For a starter, does anybody have anything interesting to say about 
Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, 
Citta/Kaya muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, 
Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata). I am using Nina von Gorkom's 
book "Cetasikas" as a reference, but I am having a problem making 
these kusala cetasikas relevant and interesting to a lay audience.

 
14326 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:07am
Subject: Re: Also new to group

 
  --
Dear Rob,
Welcome to the group.
Some of the first books I ever read on Dhamma were by the ven. 
Dhammananda - a tireless worker for the Dhamma.
I'll be in Bangkok from August 15 -20 and Sarah and Jon will be 
there from 16-18 , we will be meeting with khun Sujin and others for 
Dhamma discussions which you would be most welcome to join.
For back reading of the files there is a section where some of the 
useful posts are kept:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts
metta
Robert
-  "robmoult"  wrote:
> Not familiar with "group ediquitte", but I saw that a new user 
> recently introduced himself, so I will do the same.
> 
> I am Canadian, but live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. For the past 
10+ 
> years, I have been attending the Brickfields Vihara, home of Ven. 
> Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda.
> 
> Each Sunday, I teach an intoductory Abhidhamma class to about 75 
> Chinese devotees. We use Nina van Gorkom's book "Abhidhamma in 
Daily 
> Life" and another book of the same title written by Ashin 
> Janakabhivamsa.
>

 
14327 From: robmoult   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:43am
Subject: Re: Also new to group

 
  Thanks for the offer, Robert,

Currently, I spend weekdays in China and weekends in Malaysia. I go 
to Bangkok a few times a year, but at the moment, I don't think that 
I will be in Thailand in August.



---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
<robert> wrote:
> --
> Dear Rob,
> Welcome to the group.
> Some of the first books I ever read on Dhamma were by the ven. 
> Dhammananda - a tireless worker for the Dhamma.
> I'll be in Bangkok from August 15 -20 and Sarah and Jon will be 
> there from 16-18 , we will be meeting with khun Sujin and others 
for 
> Dhamma discussions which you would be most welcome to join.
> For back reading of the files there is a section where some of the 
> useful posts are kept:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts
> metta
> Robert
> -  "robmoult"  wrote:
> > Not familiar with "group ediquitte", but I saw that a new user 
> > recently introduced himself, so I will do the same.
> > 
> > I am Canadian, but live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. For the past 
> 10+ 
> > years, I have been attending the Brickfields Vihara, home of 
Ven. 
> > Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda.
> > 
> > Each Sunday, I teach an intoductory Abhidhamma class to about 75 
> > Chinese devotees. We use Nina van Gorkom's book "Abhidhamma in 
> Daily 
> > Life" and another book of the same title written by Ashin 
> > Janakabhivamsa.
> >

 
14328 From: robmoult   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:29pm
Subject: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala 
cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya 
muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, 
Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople.

The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on 
application in daily life.

I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas?

 
14329 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:54pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Dear Rob M,

Thank you SO much for your detailed and interesting intro. I know Nina
will also be very glad to hear about the abhdidhamma course you teach. In
the 70s, when Jon was living in Bkk, he used to send boxes and boxes of
ADL and other books to friends in Malaysia (esp. in Penang) and had quite
a lot of contact with these keen students.

I note you spend time in China.  Let us know if you pass through Hong Kong
too. There will also be quite a gathering of DSGers in Bkk at the end
Nov/beg Dec when Nina, Christine, Azita will also be joining Rob,
ourselves and others already there.
**********
A couple of suggestions which may give you one or two ideas with your qu.
below:

6 Pairs
======
I wrote a post to Erik in reply to comments of his with daily life
relevance I think:

http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3798.html
(my post)

http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3686.html
(Erik's)

Tattramajjhattata
=============
Try looking under 'Equanimity' in Useful Posts (which Rob K mentioned):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts

You can always try a potentially wild goose search chase by putting a
words such as 'kaya lahuta' or 'tattramajjhattata' in the search on
escribe as I just did to find the first posts:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/

(Note: the escribe back-up only started quite sometime --that means I've
fortotten when-- after DSG started and there have been periods when they
broke down and messages weren't recorded there)

Please let us know anymore about your classes and your presentation. We'll
be delighted to hear of any tricky questions by your students and look
forward to any answers or comments you give us in the meantime.

<Rob is a very popular name here, so I hope you don't mind being Rob M. to
avoid confusion?>

Sarah
====== 
p.s, I'm sure you'll have seen that Larry is 'running' an ADL study corner
here.....we're about up to C15 or C16. We'll be delighted to hear any of
your comments on this or for any of your students to join.
.......

--- robmoult  wrote: > I need to present
Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala 
> cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya 
> muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, 
> Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople.
> 
> The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on 
> application in daily life.
> 
> I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas?



 
14330 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:04pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] new !

 
  Hi Jean-Francois,

Welcome to DSG and thank you for setting such a good example to Rob M by
introducing yourself.

 --- searchttt  wrote: > Hello !
> 
> I'm new to the list.
> 
> A fe words to introduce myself.
> 
> I'm 42 years old and live in Belgium (in the "French-talking" part 
> of the country).
> 
> I'm interested in spirituality in general.
......
Well, Nina is your neighbour in Holland. I'm sure there are many French
speakers around, but your English is obviously very fluent.
..... 
> As far as buddhism is concerned, on an intelletual point of view, I 
> will simply say that I've read many books written by buddhists 
> from various paths.  I've had the opportunity to discuss with 
> many buddhists.
> 
> On a practical point of view, I praticed yoga meditation (non 
> buddhist), zazen with teachers or monks. For a rather short time, 
> I've practiced vipassana.
.....
This all sounds very interesting. You'll get to meet others here who
practice yoga (all kinds), vipassana (full range of understanding of the
term) and who've come from zazen and other Mahayana schools.
.....
We'll be glad to hear questions, comments, answers from you. Feel free to
join in any thread or ignore those that are of no interest to you.

Hope to speak to you later,

Sarah

p.s for simple Pali terms, you may like to print out this glossary if they
are not familiar to you:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary
======




 
14331 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:09pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [...corruptions of insight [Sarah -- (easier to read)]

 
  Dear Shakti,

 --- Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> wrote: > 
>  Dear Sarah, 
> Yes, we have computers in Montana as I am typing on one.  If you are
> really coming to Montana and happen to pass thru Missoula on your way to
> your cabin in the wood if you have time and would like to get together
> for tea I would certain enjoy meeting you.  I will be here thru mid
> August so please let me know. 
 .....
I think you meant to address this note to Dan. Missoula doesn't sound like
it'll be on the way from Hong Kong to Sydney;-( ,  so It'll have to be
another time. I hope you get to meet Dan & family. Let us know if so.

Sarah
=====



 
14332 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:06pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta References about Rebirth

 
  Hi Howard & Chris,

In addition to all your excellent research, Chris, I think you can also
add all the Jatakas (as Rob suggested), many Dhammapada verses, many
Thera-therigatha verses, all the Petavatthu and Vimanavatthu (Stories of
the Departed & Mansions) in that all these come under the suttas in the
Sutta-pitaka, though not in the first four nikayas you refer to.
..........
Howard, you’ve made some excellent comments in your post.  As you suggest,
the clinging to an idea of ‘self’ is very tenacious, regardless of whether
one accepts or discards ‘rebirth’ in theory. Only by developing the wisdom
which really understands the conditioned nature and arising and falling
away of paramattha dhammas will it clearly be understood without doubt. As
Dan and i've been discussing, this stage of insight which understands the
conditioned nature of realities, can only be realized when there is no
doubt about namas and rupas:
.....
"After discerning the material body's conditions in this way, he again
discerns the mental body in the way beginnng: 'due to eye and to visible
object eye-consciousness arises' (Sii72, Mi,111).

When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due
to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the past too its
occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence
will be due to conditions.

When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is to
say, the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus: "Was I in
the past..........<etc> and also the five kinds of uncertainty about the
future stated thus: "Shall I be in the future?...<etc>., and also the six
kinds of uncertainty about the present stated thus: "Am I?...<etc>"(Mi,8) 
(end quote from Vism XIX,5)
*****

I particularly liked this danger you raise here:

--- Howard wrote: 
>        One danger in the matter of rebirth (which I think is a misnomer,
> but 
> which I shall nonetheless render without quotes! ;-) is that it is a
> concept 
> easily infected by belief in self. As some of your quoted material
> points 
> out, "heresies" such as Sati's easily arise, views which see rebirth as
> the 
> situation of "a consciousness" moving from body to body or realm to
> realm, 
> like a person travelling from place to place. This is a Brahmanical
> notion 
> with no genuine relation to the Dhamma. Sometimes, the atta "infection"
> here 
> may be quite subtle. Though one may deny that "a consciousness"
> continues, 
> one still may have in the back of ones mind that, somehow, ones
> "identity" 
> continues. Now, that is still a clinging to self. In fact, nothing at
> all 
> continues. Current conditions, including current kamma and kammic 
> accumulations result in the arising of subsequent conditions. This
> occurs 
> from moment to moment as well as over gaps in time. But nothing, neither
> "a 
> consciousness", nor an "identity", nor any core of any sort continues or
> is 
> reborn. Anicca and paticcasamupada are the facts, but they are easily 
> misconstrued.  Rebirth serving as a repository for atta belief is one
> danger.
.....
With regard to your second danger mentioned, bhava tanha, again you make
some helpful points. As I understand, bhava tanha can be either with or
without the (wrong) view of self and so we need to read the context
carefully. The anagami still has a subtle clinging for existence or the
results of jhana, but all view of self has long since been eradicated (at
the stage of the sotapanna).I know Nina will be happy to discuss this
subject further if you are interested while I’m away.
.....
You then mention the annihilationist views and add more useful
points.which I’ll just add at the end of the post as I’m unable to ‘snip’
when they’re all so helpful and relevant;-) As you suggest, there is still
the idea of self in this view. You’ve been considering carefully.

All the wrong views are included in the Brahmajala sutta, in the ‘net of
views’, including those concerned with annhihilation and eternalism. All
these views are rooted in an idea of self.

(Newcomers may like to read these posts on the subject also with textual
references:)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11082
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10500

Thank you both for covering this difficult topic so beautifully.

Sarah
=====

>....So, bhava tanha is a danger.
>        The opposite dangers exist as well. One can believe in a kind of 
> annihilationist rebirth. That is, one can think (or, better, "feel")
> that one 
> 
> truly exists now as an entity/identity/person/being, that this person is
> "cut 
> 
> off" entirely at death, and then another "real person" is born somewhere
> (and 
> 
> some place) else, with that "real person" being the spiritual ancestor
> of the 
> 
> first. In this case, instead of having substantial continuation, one has
> 
> complete annihilation of a real being followed by later birth of a
> distinctly 
> 
> separate real being. This view is a separatist, annihilationist view,
> and it 
> serves as basis for craving for nonexistence, for escape by
> annihilation. 
> This is the opposite side of the coin from the first view. It is the
> other 
> extreme which the middle way of dependent arising avoids. In reality,
> there 
> is no real being or entity or person or identity that exists even from
> moment 
> 
> to moment, and no real being later arises. There are just fleeting,
> empty 
> conditions arising and ceasing, and serving as basis for the arising of 
> subsequent formations.
>        So, the foregoing are disclaimers. But those disclaimers aside,
> the 
> Buddha did teach the continuation of the process of conditionality
> beyond the 
> 
> limit of a single "lifetime" and beyond the limit of a single realm of 
> experience. He did teach it. I do believe it: Never did he teach the 
> termination of that process except in the attaining of final nibbana.
> But 
> belief in it is not the sine qua non of being a Buddhist, nor of
> practicing 
> the Dhamma. In fact, a belief in rebirth can sometimes be more of an 
> impediment than a disbelief - because the dangers are considerable.
...................................................................................................




 
14333 From: searchttt   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:18pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] new !

 
  ---  Sarah  wrote:

> Well, Nina is your neighbour in Holland. I'm sure there are 
many French
> speakers around, but your English is obviously very fluent.
> ..... 

Yes. Holland is a country I like very much. This year I'll go to 
Holland, but just for a one-day trip.

A few words to Nina: Hallo Nina, hoe gaat het? Misschie hebben 
we ooit de gelengenheid samen te mediteren? Wie weet?



> You'll get to meet others here who
> practice yoga (all kinds), vipassana (full range of 
understanding of the
> term) and who've come from zazen and other Mahayana 
schools.


Which is a very good thing :-)

Jean-François

 
14334 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 6:12pm
Subject: Refuge and Precepts

 
  Hi everyone,
I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by 
Bhikkhu Bodhi.  About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this 
topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a 
meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and 
remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism.  It seemed 
at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a 
lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or 
society.  Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not 
familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary.  It 
would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole 
booklet is quite inspiring to read.
I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder 
what others think about this possibility?  
Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the 
Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action 
or speech of some sort.  But should these feelings be discouraged?  
Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any 
alternatives?

metta,
Christine

  
"Going for Refuge 
The Buddha's teaching can be thought of as a kind of building with 
its own distinct foundation, stories, stairs, and roof. Like any 
other building the teaching also has a door, and in order to enter it 
we have to enter through this door. The door of entrance to the 
teaching of the Buddha is the going for refuge to the Triple Gem -- 
that is, to the Buddha as the fully enlightened teacher, to the 
Dhamma as the truth taught by him, and to the Sangha as the community 
of his noble disciples. From ancient times to the present the going 
for refuge has functioned as the entranceway to the dispensation of 
the Buddha, giving admission to the rest of the teaching from its 
lowermost story to its top. All those who embrace the Buddha's 
teaching do so by passing through the door of taking refuge, while 
those already committed regularly reaffirm their conviction by making 
the same threefold profession: 

Buddham saranam gacchami
I go for refuge to the Buddha; 
Dhammam saranam gacchami
I go for refuge to the Dhamma; 

Sangham saranam gacchami
I go for refuge to the Sangha. 

As slight and commonplace as this step might seem, especially in 
comparison with the lofty achievements lying beyond, its importance 
should never be underestimated, as it is this act which imparts 
direction and forward momentum to the entire practice of the Buddhist 
path. Since the going for refuge plays such a crucial role it is 
vital that the act be properly understood both in its own nature and 
in its implications for future development along the path. To open up 
the process of going for refuge to the eye of inner understanding, we 
here present an examination of the process in terms of its most 
significant aspects. These will be dealt with under the following 
eight headings: the reasons for taking refuge; the existence of a 
refuge; the identification of the refuge objects; the act of going 
for refuge; the function of going for refuge, methods of going for 
refuge; the corruption and breach of the going for refuge; and the 
similes for the refuges." 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel282.html#ref

 
14335 From: Ruth Klein   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 6:44pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Refuge and Precepts

 
  A question that's been on my mind, too.  Having no monastic community near
by, I have not had the opportunity to participate in this ritual either.  I
will have the option when I'm at Wat Metta next month.  However, one is
supposed to approach this undertaking without any doubts - many of which I
still harbor.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: christine_forsyth 
> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 6:13 AM
>
> Hi everyone,
> I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by
> Bhikkhu Bodhi.  About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this
> topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a
> meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and
> remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism.  It seemed
> at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a
> lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or
> society.  Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not
> familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary.  It
> would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole
> booklet is quite inspiring to read.
> I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder
> what others think about this possibility?
> Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the
> Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action
> or speech of some sort.  But should these feelings be discouraged?
> Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any
> alternatives?
>
> metta,
> Christine

 
14336 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:08pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Refuge and Precepts

 
  Hi, Christine -

In a message dated 7/15/02 6:13:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Christine writes:


> 
> Hi everyone,
> I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by 
> Bhikkhu Bodhi.  About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this 
> topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a 
> meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and 
> remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism.  It seemed 
> at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a 
> lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or 
> society.  Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not 
> familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary.  It 
> would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole 
> booklet is quite inspiring to read.
> I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder 
> what others think about this possibility?  
> Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the 
> Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action 
> or speech of some sort.  But should these feelings be discouraged?  
> Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any 
> alternatives?
> 
> metta,
> Christine
> 
>   
> "Going for Refuge 
> The Buddha's teaching can be thought of as a kind of building with 
> its own distinct foundation, stories, stairs, and roof. Like any 
> other building the teaching also has a door, and in order to enter it 
> we have to enter through this door. The door of entrance to the 
> teaching of the Buddha is the going for refuge to the Triple Gem -- 
> that is, to the Buddha as the fully enlightened teacher, to the 
> Dhamma as the truth taught by him, and to the Sangha as the community 
> of his noble disciples. From ancient times to the present the going 
> for refuge has functioned as the entranceway to the dispensation of 
> the Buddha, giving admission to the rest of the teaching from its 
> lowermost story to its top. All those who embrace the Buddha's 
> teaching do so by passing through the door of taking refuge, while 
> those already committed regularly reaffirm their conviction by making 
> the same threefold profession: 
> 
> Buddham saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Buddha; 
> Dhammam saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Dhamma; 
> 
> Sangham saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Sangha. 
> 
> As slight and commonplace as this step might seem, especially in 
> comparison with the lofty achievements lying beyond, its importance 
> should never be underestimated, as it is this act which imparts 
> direction and forward momentum to the entire practice of the Buddhist 
> path. Since the going for refuge plays such a crucial role it is 
> vital that the act be properly understood both in its own nature and 
> in its implications for future development along the path. To open up 
> the process of going for refuge to the eye of inner understanding, we 
> here present an examination of the process in terms of its most 
> significant aspects. These will be dealt with under the following 
> eight headings: the reasons for taking refuge; the existence of a 
> refuge; the identification of the refuge objects; the act of going 
> for refuge; the function of going for refuge, methods of going for 
> refuge; the corruption and breach of the going for refuge; and the 
> similes for the refuges." 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel282.html#ref
> 
> 
> 
=============================
       I think this is a very personal, very individual matter. I never 
attended a formal going-for-refuge ceremony. At the one 10-day Goenka retreat 
I attended, there was a group recitation of the three refuges which I 
participated in and took quite seriously. Whenever I visit with the Thai monk 
I see, prior to our sitting to meditate he has me recite the "namo tassa" and 
the three refuges, which, again, I take quite seriously, with concentration 
and devotional intent. I think that what is important in this regard is one's 
intention.
       You write "Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at 
the 
Teachings ..." To me, this is the core of taking refuge, because it comes 
from your heart. You may find it kind of  completion to further express it in 
word and deed, but you already have the core of it, the genuine deep respect, 
appreciation, and love. That's what really counts as I see it.
       As far as empty ritual is concerned, that will be operative if one 
thinks that the recitation and formal ceremony has a magical element to it, 
and that the mere recitation is, itself, of value. But if one views a formal 
taking of refuge and expression of devotion as the external completion of 
what already exists internally, then this is not mere ritual, and it could be 
quite a lovely experience. That's how I see the matter.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14337 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson  <<>> 
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:54pm
Subject: Re: coming to Montana?

 
  Dear Sarah and Dan, 
Sorry for the confusion.  Dan if you and your family are coming to Montana and pass thru Missoula please let me know and perhaps I can act as a tour guide for a day or so.  
With metta, Shakti
  Sarah  wrote: Dear Shakti,

--- Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > 
> Dear Sarah, 
> Yes, we have computers in Montana as I am typing on one. If you are
> really coming to Montana and happen to pass thru Missoula on your way to
> your cabin in the wood if you have time and would like to get together
> for tea I would certain enjoy meeting you. I will be here thru mid
> August so please let me know. 
.....
I think you meant to address this note to Dan. Missoula doesn't sound like
it'll be on the way from Hong Kong to Sydney;-( , so It'll have to be
another time. I hope you get to meet Dan & family. Let us know if so.

Sarah
=====



 
14338 From: abhidhammika  <Suan> 
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16pm
Subject: Re: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas: To Rob Moult

 
  Dear Rob Moult

I reproduced the following post I sent to the other groups a few 
weeks ago whose themes or traditions are different from here in DSG. 
It contained a brief discussion of "kaayakammaññataa" 
and "cittakammaññataa".
 
As for tatramajjhattata, you can find my old post on the bodhiology 
website. It can be found under Academic Snippets,  Content 2001, The 
Science And Academic Journal Of Bodhiology on the website (see the 
link below the present post.)

I hope you find them useful.

Suan

-------------------------------------


(Preface To The Previous Groups)

The following post attempted to show how we could describe the 
experiences of a veteran psychoanalyst by applying technical terms of 
Pali Abhidhamma. 

Please also note that the psychoanalyst in question had no recourse 
to any modern technical terms to describe his own experiences when he 
performed successful psychotherapy.

Here, you could witness the capability and versatility of technical 
terms found in 600 BC Pali Abhidhamma Texts in expressing the 
experiences of modern human beings. 


Suan

------------------------------------


Dear Julio (and Chris, and group)

Thank you for sharing the experiences of a retired psychoanalyst who 
made the following statements for his clinical successes.

"...Thinking back on it, those were the moments when everything 
happened -the moments when it seemed like nothing was happening at 
all. 

"It took thirty years to learn to let that happen", he said. ..."

What attracted my attention most from the above statements was the 
experience expressed as the moments when everything happened, yet 
seeming like nothing was happening at all.

The above expression reminded me of two important technical terms of 
psychology found in 600 BC Pali Abhidhamma texts.

They are "kaayakammaññataa" and "cittakammaññataa".

Kaayakammaññataa means the workability of the mental associates while 
cittakammaññataa is the workability of the mind.

Workability here refers to the situation in which we find ourselves 
effortless in whatever we do. When we are in such a situation, we 
could experience, like the psychoanalyst in Julio's post, the moments 
when everything happens while feeling as if nothing was happening.

I hope this post gives you something to ponder over.

With kind regards,

Suan Lu Zaw


http://www.bodhiology.org/






---  "robmoult"  wrote:
> I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala 
> cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya 
> muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, 
> Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople.
> 
> The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on 
> application in daily life.
> 
> I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas?

 
 
 
14339 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson  <<>> 
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:22pm
Subject: Robert, Sarah and Jon - Bkk

 
  Dear Robert, Sarah and Jon, 
I was happy to hear that you would all be in Bangkok in August but sadden that I will miss you all by a few days.  I will be in Bangkok August 24th for a few days before I leave for Kathmandu and then Tibet.  I then will return October 1st or so.  I hope to meet members of dsg group at that time.  With metta, Shakti
  "robertkirkpatrick.rm"  wrote: --
Dear Rob,
Welcome to the group.
Some of the first books I ever read on Dhamma were by the ven. 
Dhammananda - a tireless worker for the Dhamma.
I'll be in Bangkok from August 15 -20 and Sarah and Jon will be 
there from 16-18 , we will be meeting with khun Sujin and others for 
Dhamma discussions which you would be most welcome to join.
For back reading of the files there is a section where some of the 
useful posts are kept:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts
metta
Robert
-  "robmoult" wrote:
> Not familiar with "group ediquitte", but I saw that a new user 
> recently introduced himself, so I will do the same.
> 
> I am Canadian, but live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. For the past 
10+ 
> years, I have been attending the Brickfields Vihara, home of Ven. 
> Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda.
> 
> Each Sunday, I teach an intoductory Abhidhamma class to about 75 
> Chinese devotees. We use Nina van Gorkom's book "Abhidhamma in 
Daily 
> Life" and another book of the same title written by Ashin 
> Janakabhivamsa.
> 




 
14340 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:24pm
Subject: Re: Robert, Sarah and Jon - Bkk

 
  --- 
Wonderful Deanna,
I plan to be back in Bangkok from late september so we'll meet then.
Much looking foward to it. please take some photos in tibet!
Robert
 Deanna Shakti Johnson 
 wrote:
> 
>  Dear Robert, Sarah and Jon, 
> I was happy to hear that you would all be in Bangkok in August but 
sadden that I will miss you all by a few days.  I will be in Bangkok 
August 24th for a few days before I leave for Kathmandu and then 
Tibet.  I then will return October 1st or so.  I hope to meet 
members of dsg group at that time.  With metta, Shakti

 
14341 From: search   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:35am
Subject: Re : [dsg] Refuge and Precepts

 
  Hi !

Walpula Rahula says that you can be a buddhist without going for refuge. You
simply have to follow the teaching of the Buddha. Yet, he added that it is a
tradition to take refuge.

I've also read somewhere that in some traditions you take refuge on
different occasions, even every day.

Personnaly, I do think that rituals are important in everbody's life.

There are rituals in everyday life, as kissing the child before he/she goes
to bed, shaking hands when you meet somebody (in some countries), thanking
your boss when he gives you a big file to deal with...

There are also rituals with a spiritual meaning. You can find them in
religions, in freemasonry, etc...

Rituals are a way of expressing something you can't express otherwise. Like
symbols.

But this is only my point of view.

Best regards.

Jean-François

----------
>De : "christine_forsyth" 
>Objet : [dsg] Refuge and Precepts
>Date : Lun 15 juil 2002 11:12
>

> Hi everyone,
> I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by
> Bhikkhu Bodhi.  About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this
> topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a
> meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and
> remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism.  It seemed
> at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a
> lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or
> society.  Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not
> familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary.  It
> would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole
> booklet is quite inspiring to read.
> I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder
> what others think about this possibility?
> Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the
> Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action
> or speech of some sort.  But should these feelings be discouraged?
> Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any
> alternatives?
>
> metta,
> Christine
>
>
> "Going for Refuge
> The Buddha's teaching can be thought of as a kind of building with
> its own distinct foundation, stories, stairs, and roof. Like any
> other building the teaching also has a door, and in order to enter it
> we have to enter through this door. The door of entrance to the
> teaching of the Buddha is the going for refuge to the Triple Gem --
> that is, to the Buddha as the fully enlightened teacher, to the
> Dhamma as the truth taught by him, and to the Sangha as the community
> of his noble disciples. From ancient times to the present the going
> for refuge has functioned as the entranceway to the dispensation of
> the Buddha, giving admission to the rest of the teaching from its
> lowermost story to its top. All those who embrace the Buddha's
> teaching do so by passing through the door of taking refuge, while
> those already committed regularly reaffirm their conviction by making
> the same threefold profession:
>
> Buddham saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Buddha;
> Dhammam saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Dhamma;
>
> Sangham saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Sangha.
>
> As slight and commonplace as this step might seem, especially in
> comparison with the lofty achievements lying beyond, its importance
> should never be underestimated, as it is this act which imparts
> direction and forward momentum to the entire practice of the Buddhist
> path. Since the going for refuge plays such a crucial role it is
> vital that the act be properly understood both in its own nature and
> in its implications for future development along the path. To open up
> the process of going for refuge to the eye of inner understanding, we
> here present an examination of the process in terms of its most
> significant aspects. These will be dealt with under the following
> eight headings: the reasons for taking refuge; the existence of a
> refuge; the identification of the refuge objects; the act of going
> for refuge; the function of going for refuge, methods of going for
> refuge; the corruption and breach of the going for refuge; and the
> similes for the refuges."
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel282.html#ref

 
14342 From: robmoult   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:08am
Subject: Re: Refuge and Precepts

 
  Hi Christine,

Manussa is unhappy (dukkha). He is unhappy because he is in jail. 
His crime? Craving. His sentence? Life imprisonment. The prison? 
Samsara. He had just finished a life term for the crime of craving 
and as soon as he was released, he was thrown back into the prison 
of samsara for the same crime. One day, the Buddha appeared and 
said, "Like you, I used to be a prisoner in Samsara. I escaped and I 
showed my friends, the Ariyas, how to escape as well." The Buddha 
then gave Manussa a key and said, "This key opens the door to the 
prison of Samsara. To use it, you must walk to the door, put the key 
in the keyhole, turn the key and open the door." The Buddha 
disappeared leaving the key behind. Unfortunately, Manussa lacked 
wisdom (panna) and wasn't sure what to do with the key. Manussa 
remembered that the key had been given to him by the Buddha. He 
decided to frame the key and hang it on the wall. Each week, Manussa 
would take refuge in the key, he would worship the key and recite 
the virtues of the key. These rites and rituals made Manussa feel a 
bit better. He hoped that the key would let him out of the prison of 
Samsara. Poor Manussa! He needed faith to believe that there was a 
door and that the key would work, however, to get out of Samsara, 
right effort is needed. Without right effort, the key is useless.

Having said this, taking refuge or reciting precepts can be of great 
value, if done with understanding. This is because these actions, if 
done with understanding, inspire kusala cetasikas. Repeated 
regularly, these actions build positive mental habits (Buddhi-
carita / saddha-carita / vitakka-carita). Carita impacts the 
determining citta of the thought process. Since the moral quality of 
any action depends on the underlying volition, taking refuge or 
reciting precepts (if done with understanding) helps one to be 
virtuous naturally in daily life.

The taking of refuge or reciting of precepts must be done with 
proper understanding to be of great value. I agree with you that 
Bhikkhu Bodhi's book is very inspiring, it contributes greatly 
to "proper understanding" of taking refuge and reciting precepts. 

There is however, one point in this book that I am not sure about. 
When listing the factors required to constitute a breaking of the 
precept of "false speech", Bhikkhu Bodhi states that the conveying 
of a false impression is enough, it is not required that the other 
person believe what you have said is true. This would mean that 
teasing and joking would fall under the purview of this precept. In 
fact, Bhikkhu Bodhi states that joking, exaggerating and flattery 
are examples of false speech motivated by moha. I am not sure about 
this because, in cases such as this, there is no intention / 
volition / thought to deceive. Anybody have any comments on this?

I have digressed from your question. In my opinion, though faith 
plays an important part in Buddhism, particularly at the beginning 
of the practice, it is action that gains us salvation and release 
from suffering. The type of action appropriate for you depends on 
your nature. Most of us are not ready to shave our heads. I think 
that people who are experiencing worries (financial or otherwise) 
should focus on dana. Donating time is more important than money. 
Spending an hour massaging a spastic child or helping orphans with 
their homework is enough to reset anybody's perspective about their 
own problems. For those who are stressed, I think that meditation is 
a good idea. Try holding up a cup for an hour – it gets really 
painful. However, if you regularly put the cup down, even for a few 
seconds, you can carry the cup for a long time. In this analogy, I 
think it is from Ajan Chah, the cup is the thing that is stressing 
you and "putting it down" is clearing the mind with meditation. For 
those people who are neither worried nor stressed, they should go 
for refuge and take precepts at the beginning of the day and then 
being aware of daily life and how our actions measure up against the 
precepts.

Avoiding evil (sila), doing good (dana), and purifying the mind 
(bhavana) are all kusala actions and help establish positive habits, 
thereby helping us along the path.

Sorry that this message ended up being so longwinded, I am on an 
airplane with some time to kill and decided to take it out on you 
:-). I hope that my musings are of some help.

Thanks,
Rob :-)


---  "christine_forsyth"  
wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by 
> Bhikkhu Bodhi.  About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this 
> topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within 
a 
> meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and 
> remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism.  It 
seemed 
> at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming 
a 
> lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or 
> society.  Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either 
not 
> familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary.  
It 
> would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His 
whole 
> booklet is quite inspiring to read.
> I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder 
> what others think about this possibility?  
> Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the 
> Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in 
action 
> or speech of some sort.  But should these feelings be 
discouraged?  
> Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there 
any 
> alternatives?
> 
> metta,
> Christine
> 
>   
> "Going for Refuge 
> The Buddha's teaching can be thought of as a kind of building with 
> its own distinct foundation, stories, stairs, and roof. Like any 
> other building the teaching also has a door, and in order to enter 
it 
> we have to enter through this door. The door of entrance to the 
> teaching of the Buddha is the going for refuge to the Triple Gem --
 
> that is, to the Buddha as the fully enlightened teacher, to the 
> Dhamma as the truth taught by him, and to the Sangha as the 
community 
> of his noble disciples. From ancient times to the present the 
going 
> for refuge has functioned as the entranceway to the dispensation 
of 
> the Buddha, giving admission to the rest of the teaching from its 
> lowermost story to its top. All those who embrace the Buddha's 
> teaching do so by passing through the door of taking refuge, while 
> those already committed regularly reaffirm their conviction by 
making 
> the same threefold profession: 
> 
> Buddham saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Buddha; 
> Dhammam saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Dhamma; 
> 
> Sangham saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Sangha. 
> 
> As slight and commonplace as this step might seem, especially in 
> comparison with the lofty achievements lying beyond, its 
importance 
> should never be underestimated, as it is this act which imparts 
> direction and forward momentum to the entire practice of the 
Buddhist 
> path. Since the going for refuge plays such a crucial role it is 
> vital that the act be properly understood both in its own nature 
and 
> in its implications for future development along the path. To open 
up 
> the process of going for refuge to the eye of inner understanding, 
we 
> here present an examination of the process in terms of its most 
> significant aspects. These will be dealt with under the following 
> eight headings: the reasons for taking refuge; the existence of a 
> refuge; the identification of the refuge objects; the act of going 
> for refuge; the function of going for refuge, methods of going for 
> refuge; the corruption and breach of the going for refuge; and the 
> similes for the refuges." 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel282.html#ref

 
14343 From: robmoult   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:13am
Subject: Re: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas: To Rob Moult

 
  Thanks, useful stuff.


---  "abhidhammika" <Suan> wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Rob Moult
> 
> I reproduced the following post I sent to the other groups a few 
> weeks ago whose themes or traditions are different from here in 
DSG. 
> It contained a brief discussion of "kaayakammaññataa" 
> and "cittakammaññataa".
>  
> As for tatramajjhattata, you can find my old post on the 
bodhiology 
> website. It can be found under Academic Snippets,  Content 2001, 
The 
> Science And Academic Journal Of Bodhiology on the website (see the 
> link below the present post.)
> 
> I hope you find them useful.
> 
> Suan
> 
> -------------------------------------
> 
> 
> (Preface To The Previous Groups)
> 
> The following post attempted to show how we could describe the 
> experiences of a veteran psychoanalyst by applying technical terms 
of 
> Pali Abhidhamma. 
> 
> Please also note that the psychoanalyst in question had no 
recourse 
> to any modern technical terms to describe his own experiences when 
he 
> performed successful psychotherapy.
> 
> Here, you could witness the capability and versatility of 
technical 
> terms found in 600 BC Pali Abhidhamma Texts in expressing the 
> experiences of modern human beings. 
> 
> 
> Suan
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Dear Julio (and Chris, and group)
> 
> Thank you for sharing the experiences of a retired psychoanalyst 
who 
> made the following statements for his clinical successes.
> 
> "...Thinking back on it, those were the moments when everything 
> happened -the moments when it seemed like nothing was happening at 
> all. 
> 
> "It took thirty years to learn to let that happen", he said. ..."
> 
> What attracted my attention most from the above statements was the 
> experience expressed as the moments when everything happened, yet 
> seeming like nothing was happening at all.
> 
> The above expression reminded me of two important technical terms 
of 
> psychology found in 600 BC Pali Abhidhamma texts.
> 
> They are "kaayakammaññataa" and "cittakammaññataa".
> 
> Kaayakammaññataa means the workability of the mental associates 
while 
> cittakammaññataa is the workability of the mind.
> 
> Workability here refers to the situation in which we find 
ourselves 
> effortless in whatever we do. When we are in such a situation, we 
> could experience, like the psychoanalyst in Julio's post, the 
moments 
> when everything happens while feeling as if nothing was happening.
> 
> I hope this post gives you something to ponder over.
> 
> With kind regards,
> 
> Suan Lu Zaw
> 
> 
> http://www.bodhiology.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---  "robmoult"  wrote:
> > I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala 
> > cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya 
> > muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, 
> > Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople.
> > 
> > The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused 
on 
> > application in daily life.
> > 
> > I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas?

 
14344 From: robmoult   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:17am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Sarah, Thanks for the info.

---  Sarah  wrote:
> Dear Rob M,
> 
> Thank you SO much for your detailed and interesting intro. I know 
Nina
> will also be very glad to hear about the abhdidhamma course you 
teach. In
> the 70s, when Jon was living in Bkk, he used to send boxes and 
boxes of
> ADL and other books to friends in Malaysia (esp. in Penang) and 
had quite
> a lot of contact with these keen students.
> 
> I note you spend time in China.  Let us know if you pass through 
Hong Kong
> too. There will also be quite a gathering of DSGers in Bkk at the 
end
> Nov/beg Dec when Nina, Christine, Azita will also be joining Rob,
> ourselves and others already there.
> **********
> A couple of suggestions which may give you one or two ideas with 
your qu.
> below:
> 
> 6 Pairs
> ======
> I wrote a post to Erik in reply to comments of his with daily life
> relevance I think:
> 
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3798.html
> (my post)
> 
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3686.html
> (Erik's)
> 
> Tattramajjhattata
> =============
> Try looking under 'Equanimity' in Useful Posts (which Rob K 
mentioned):
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts
> 
> You can always try a potentially wild goose search chase by 
putting a
> words such as 'kaya lahuta' or 'tattramajjhattata' in the search on
> escribe as I just did to find the first posts:
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/
> 
> (Note: the escribe back-up only started quite sometime --that 
means I've
> fortotten when-- after DSG started and there have been periods 
when they
> broke down and messages weren't recorded there)
> 
> Please let us know anymore about your classes and your 
presentation. We'll
> be delighted to hear of any tricky questions by your students and 
look
> forward to any answers or comments you give us in the meantime.
> 
> <Rob is a very popular name here, so I hope you don't mind being 
Rob M. to
> avoid confusion?>
> 
> Sarah
> ====== 
> p.s, I'm sure you'll have seen that Larry is 'running' an ADL 
study corner
> here.....we're about up to C15 or C16. We'll be delighted to hear 
any of
> your comments on this or for any of your students to join.
> .......
> 
> --- robmoult  wrote: > I need to present
> Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala 
> > cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya 
> > muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata, 
> > Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople.
> > 
> > The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused 
on 
> > application in daily life.
> > 
> > I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas?

 
14345 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Perfections, Ch 2, no 11

 
  Perfections, Ch 2, no 11:

We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct², Division II, the
Perfection of Renunciation, no. 1, ³Conduct of Yudhañjaya² 8) :

Paññå of the beginning stage that considers the impermanence of realities,
knows which dhammas are beneficial concerning generosity etc. and which are
not. This is the perfection of paññå.

Dåna, generosity, is the giving away of objects for the benefit and
happiness of others. When we give things away we are not selfish. Paññå of
the beginning stage considers the impermanence of realities. Did we ever
consider at the moment of giving that there is nothing lasting? Even
possessions that we still have today and that we have not yet given away may
vanish before we can give them away, because they are impermanent. Even we
ourselves who have not yet given away things are impermanent, we may die
even before we have the opportunity to be generous. When we reflect on the
impermanence of those who give and those who receive, kusala citta may
motivate us to give assistance to others. When we give away things that are
beneficial to others with the understanding of the impermanence of
everything, the perfection of wisdom can develop. We can only know for
ourselves whether we consider impermanence at such moments. When we meet
people who are poor, we can reflect on the unsatisfactoriness of life and on
impermanence before giving, at the moment of giving and after having given,
thus at the three moments of wholesome intention, kusala cetanå, with regard
to giving.
Some people feel joy with regard to some kinds of dåna, not to all kinds,
and when they recollect their generosity afterwards they are delighted and
have attachment to their generosity. This shows that there may be wholesome
intention, kusala cetanå, before giving, and at the moment of giving, but
that afterwards there may not be kusala citta.
We should investigate, when we recollect our generosity after we have given,
whether the citta is kusala citta or akusala citta. We may be happy when we
consider that we have done something beneficial, that we have given
assistance to people so that they are free from suffering. Others may not
give assistance to them because they may not know of their needs. When we
have given assistance to people  and we recollect the kusala we have
performed, we may feel delighted, but this is non-self, anattå; it is beyond
control whether happiness arises or not. Happy feeling may arise because we
had an opportunity to help someone who was in need and whom we should give
assistance. However, if we desire to recollect our kusala in order to have
benefit for ourselves, it is not the perfection of generosity. The
difference between generosity that is a perfection and that isn¹t is very
subtle.  

Footnote: 
8. When the Bodhisatta was Yudhañjaya, a King¹s son, he saw a dewdrop that
vanished by the heat of the sun. This reminded him of impermanence and
caused him to wish to renounce worldly life.



*****

 
14346 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 6:55am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Rob M, I couldn't get into escribe to see what Sarah wrote, so this
may be redundant.

There is a good description of the sobhana cetasikas in "A Comprehensive
Manual Of Abhidhamma" which is a reworking of M. Narada's translation of
Abhidhammatta Sangaha with commentary by B. Bodhi and U Rewata Dhamma.

Here's a brief synopsis of the ones you are interested in:

Tatramajjhattata (neutrality of mind) lit. "there in the middleness".
Synonym equanimity (upekkha), mental attitude of balance, detachment,
impartiality. Characteristic of conveying consciousness and mental
factors evenly. Function: prevent deficiency and excess, or prevent
partiality. "...like a charioteer who looks on with equanimity at the
thoroughbreds progressing evenly along the roadway."
"Neutrality of mind becomes the sublime quality of equanimity toward
living beings. As such it treats beings free from discrimination,
without preferences and prejudices, looking upon all as equal. This
equanimity should not be confused with its "near enemy," the
worldly-minded indifference due to ignorance."

The next 6 pairs relate to citta and kaya ("kaya" in this instance
refers to the "body" of associated cetasikas).

Passaddhi (tranquility) c&k: Characteristic: quieting down disturbances
in the mental body and conscousness. Function to crush such
disturbances. Manifested as peacefulness and coolness. Opposed to
restlessness and worry.

Lahuta (lightness) c&k: Characteristic of subsiding of heaviness.
Function to crush heaviness. Manifested as non-sluggishness. Opposed to
sloth and torpor.

Muduta (malleability) c&k: Characteristic of subsiding of rigidity in
citta and kaya. Function is to crush regidity. Manifested as
non-resistance. Opposed to wrong views and conceit.

Kammannata (wieldiness): Characteristic of subsiding of unwieldiness in
citta & kaya. Function is to crush unwieldiness. Manifested as success
of citta and kaya in making something an object. "It should be regarded
as opposed to the remaining hindrances, which create unwieldiness of the
mental body and consciousnss."

Pagunnata (proficiency): Characteristic of healthiness of kaya and
citta.  Function is to crush unhealthiness. Manifested as absence of
disability. Opposed to lack of faith etc. which cause unhealthiness of
mental body and consciousness. 

Ujjukata (rectitude) = straightness: Characteristic of uprightness of
citta and kaya. Function is to crush tortuousness of c & k.
Manifestation is non-crookedness. Opposed to hypocrasy and fraudulance
which are crookedness in c & k.
<end>

I don't know what "remaining hindrances" means under kammannata but the
rest seems about as clear as abhidhamma gets. 

good luck,Larry

 
14347 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:35am
Subject: ADL ch. 16 (1)

 
  Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 16 (1)

OBJECTS AND DOORS 

Citta knows or experiences something; it experiences an object. There
cannot be any citta without an object. When an object presents itself
through one of the five senses or through the mind-door, do we realize
that it is citta which experiences that object? When we do not see
things as they are, we think that a self experiences objects, and,
moreover, we take objects for permanent and for self. For example, when
we see a log of wood, we are used to thinking that the object which is
seen at that moment is the log of wood; we do not realize that only
visible object is the object which can be seen. When we touch the log of
wood, hardness or cold, for example, can be experienced through the
body-sense. We take the log of wood for a thing which lasts, but what we
call 'log of wood' are many different rupas which arise and fall away.
Only one characteristic of rupa can be experienced at a time, when it
presents itself. If we develop our understanding to see different
characteristics which appear through different doorways we will be able
to see things as they really are. 

The ariyan sees life in a way which is different from the way the
non-ariyan sees it. What the person who is not an ariyan takes for
happiness (in Pali : sukha), is for the ariyan sorrow (dukkha) ; what
for the non-ariyan is sorrow, is for the ariyan happiness. In the
'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Third Fifty, Ch. IV, par. 136)
it is said in a verse : 

Things seen and heard, tastes, odours, what we touch, 
Perceive, - - all, everything desirable, 
Pleasant and sweet, while one can say 'it is', 
These are deemed 'sukha' by both gods and men. 
And when they cease to be they hold it woe. 
The dissolution of the body-self 
To ariyans seems 'sukha'. Everything 
The world holds good, sages see otherwise. 
What other men call 'sukha', that the saints 
Call 'dukkha' what the rest so name, 
That do the Ariyans know as happiness. 
Behold a Dhamma that's hard to apprehend. 
Hereby are baffled they that are not wise. 
Darkness is theirs, enmeshed by ignorance: 
Blindness is theirs, who cannot see the light....

The Buddha taught about objects, experienced by cittas through different
doors, in order to cure people of their blindness. When we study the
teachings we learn that there are six classes of objects (in Pali :
arammana), which can be known by citta. 

The first class is visible object or ruparammana. The object which is
experienced through the eye-door can only be the kind of rupa which is
visible object. We can call it visible object or colour, it does not
matter how we name it, but we should know that it is just that which is
visible, which appears through the eyes. Visible object is not a thing
or a person we may think of. When we think that we see a tree, animal or
man, we think of concepts and there is not the knowing of visible
object. 

The second class of arammana is sound, or saddarammana. 

The third class is smell, or gandharammana. 

The fourth class is taste, or rasarammana. 
The fifth class is the object which is experienced through the
bodysense, photthabbarammana. This object comprises the following rupas: 

Solidity or the 'Element of Earth' (in Pali : pathavi-dhatu), which can
be experienced as hardness or softness. 

Temperature or the 'Element of Fire' (in Pali : tejo-dhatu), which can
be experienced as heat or cold. 

Motion or the 'Element of wind' (in Pali: vayo-dhatu), which can be
experienced as motion or pressure. 

Solidity (earth), cohesion (water), temperature (fire) and motion (wind
or air) are the 'four principal rupas' (maha-bhuta-rupas). Cohesion
(apo-dhatu) can' t be experienced through the body-sense. When we touch
water the characteristics of hardness or softness, heat or cold, motion
or pressure can be directly experienced through the body-sense. The
characteristic of cohesion can be experienced only through the
mind-door; it is included in the sixth class of arammana, the
dhammarammana. 

Dhammarammana comprises all objects which are not included in the first
five classes. These can be experienced only through the mind-door. 

If one has not cultivated insight, one does not clearly know which
object presents itself through which doorway, one is confused as to
objects and doors; thus one is confused about the world. The ariyan is
not confused about the world; he knows the arammanas which appear
through the six doors as nama and rupa, not self.

 
14348 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 3:49am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1)

 
  Hi, Larry and all -

       I just looked the following over and noticed something: this is pure 
phenomenalism! Look it over, folks, that's what it is!! ;-))

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 7/15/02 7:36:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> 
writes:


> Abhidhamma In Daily Life
> Chapter 16 (1)
> 
> OBJECTS AND DOORS 
> 
> Citta knows or experiences something; it experiences an object. There
> cannot be any citta without an object. When an object presents itself
> through one of the five senses or through the mind-door, do we realize
> that it is citta which experiences that object? When we do not see
> things as they are, we think that a self experiences objects, and,
> moreover, we take objects for permanent and for self. For example, when
> we see a log of wood, we are used to thinking that the object which is
> seen at that moment is the log of wood; we do not realize that only
> visible object is the object which can be seen. When we touch the log of
> wood, hardness or cold, for example, can be experienced through the
> body-sense. We take the log of wood for a thing which lasts, but what we
> call 'log of wood' are many different rupas which arise and fall away.
> Only one characteristic of rupa can be experienced at a time, when it
> presents itself. If we develop our understanding to see different
> characteristics which appear through different doorways we will be able
> to see things as they really are. 
> 
> The ariyan sees life in a way which is different from the way the
> non-ariyan sees it. What the person who is not an ariyan takes for
> happiness (in Pali : sukha), is for the ariyan sorrow (dukkha) ; what
> for the non-ariyan is sorrow, is for the ariyan happiness. In the
> 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Third Fifty, Ch. IV, par. 136)
> it is said in a verse : 
> 
> Things seen and heard, tastes, odours, what we touch, 
> Perceive, - - all, everything desirable, 
> Pleasant and sweet, while one can say 'it is', 
> These are deemed 'sukha' by both gods and men. 
> And when they cease to be they hold it woe. 
> The dissolution of the body-self 
> To ariyans seems 'sukha'. Everything 
> The world holds good, sages see otherwise. 
> What other men call 'sukha', that the saints 
> Call 'dukkha' what the rest so name, 
> That do the Ariyans know as happiness. 
> Behold a Dhamma that's hard to apprehend. 
> Hereby are baffled they that are not wise. 
> Darkness is theirs, enmeshed by ignorance: 
> Blindness is theirs, who cannot see the light....
> 
> The Buddha taught about objects, experienced by cittas through different
> doors, in order to cure people of their blindness. When we study the
> teachings we learn that there are six classes of objects (in Pali :
> arammana), which can be known by citta. 
> 
> The first class is visible object or ruparammana. The object which is
> experienced through the eye-door can only be the kind of rupa which is
> visible object. We can call it visible object or colour, it does not
> matter how we name it, but we should know that it is just that which is
> visible, which appears through the eyes. Visible object is not a thing
> or a person we may think of. When we think that we see a tree, animal or
> man, we think of concepts and there is not the knowing of visible
> object. 
> 
> The second class of arammana is sound, or saddarammana. 
> 
> The third class is smell, or gandharammana. 
> 
> The fourth class is taste, or rasarammana. 
> The fifth class is the object which is experienced through the
> bodysense, photthabbarammana. This object comprises the following rupas: 
> 
> Solidity or the 'Element of Earth' (in Pali : pathavi-dhatu), which can
> be experienced as hardness or softness. 
> 
> Temperature or the 'Element of Fire' (in Pali : tejo-dhatu), which can
> be experienced as heat or cold. 
> 
> Motion or the 'Element of wind' (in Pali: vayo-dhatu), which can be
> experienced as motion or pressure. 
> 
> Solidity (earth), cohesion (water), temperature (fire) and motion (wind
> or air) are the 'four principal rupas' (maha-bhuta-rupas). Cohesion
> (apo-dhatu) can' t be experienced through the body-sense. When we touch
> water the characteristics of hardness or softness, heat or cold, motion
> or pressure can be directly experienced through the body-sense. The
> characteristic of cohesion can be experienced only through the
> mind-door; it is included in the sixth class of arammana, the
> dhammarammana. 
> 
> Dhammarammana comprises all objects which are not included in the first
> five classes. These can be experienced only through the mind-door. 
> 
> If one has not cultivated insight, one does not clearly know which
> object presents itself through which doorway, one is confused as to
> objects and doors; thus one is confused about the world. The ariyan is
> not confused about the world; he knows the arammanas which appear
> through the six doors as nama and rupa, not self.
> 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14349 From: robmoult   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:22am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Larry,

I have the books that you mentioned and I also find that Nina van 
Gorkom's "Cetasikas" book to be very useful.

Let me explain my problem.

Each week, I have to deliver a 75 minute Abhidhamma talk to about 75 
Chinese laypeople, most of whom do not meditate. My objective is 
*NOT* to teach them new Pali terms or new ways of classifying 
cittas/cetasikas. I want to relate the subject to their daily lives 
and have them leave feeling that the talk was RELEVANT to them.

I will start the talk with a technical definition (including 
characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause) and 
then move to relating the subject to daily life. I have definitions 
of Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas, but I am having a 
problem linking them to daily life.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Rob M :-)




---  Larry wrote:
> Hi Rob M, I couldn't get into escribe to see what Sarah wrote, so 
this
> may be redundant.
> 
> There is a good description of the sobhana cetasikas in "A 
Comprehensive
> Manual Of Abhidhamma" which is a reworking of M. Narada's 
translation of
> Abhidhammatta Sangaha with commentary by B. Bodhi and U Rewata 
Dhamma.
> 
> Here's a brief synopsis of the ones you are interested in:
> 
> Tatramajjhattata (neutrality of mind) lit. "there in the 
middleness".
> Synonym equanimity (upekkha), mental attitude of balance, 
detachment,
> impartiality. Characteristic of conveying consciousness and mental
> factors evenly. Function: prevent deficiency and excess, or prevent
> partiality. "...like a charioteer who looks on with equanimity at 
the
> thoroughbreds progressing evenly along the roadway."
> "Neutrality of mind becomes the sublime quality of equanimity 
toward
> living beings. As such it treats beings free from discrimination,
> without preferences and prejudices, looking upon all as equal. This
> equanimity should not be confused with its "near enemy," the
> worldly-minded indifference due to ignorance."
> 
> The next 6 pairs relate to citta and kaya ("kaya" in this instance
> refers to the "body" of associated cetasikas).
> 
> Passaddhi (tranquility) c&k: Characteristic: quieting down 
disturbances
> in the mental body and conscousness. Function to crush such
> disturbances. Manifested as peacefulness and coolness. Opposed to
> restlessness and worry.
> 
> Lahuta (lightness) c&k: Characteristic of subsiding of heaviness.
> Function to crush heaviness. Manifested as non-sluggishness. 
Opposed to
> sloth and torpor.
> 
> Muduta (malleability) c&k: Characteristic of subsiding of rigidity 
in
> citta and kaya. Function is to crush regidity. Manifested as
> non-resistance. Opposed to wrong views and conceit.
> 
> Kammannata (wieldiness): Characteristic of subsiding of 
unwieldiness in
> citta & kaya. Function is to crush unwieldiness. Manifested as 
success
> of citta and kaya in making something an object. "It should be 
regarded
> as opposed to the remaining hindrances, which create unwieldiness 
of the
> mental body and consciousnss."
> 
> Pagunnata (proficiency): Characteristic of healthiness of kaya and
> citta.  Function is to crush unhealthiness. Manifested as absence 
of
> disability. Opposed to lack of faith etc. which cause 
unhealthiness of
> mental body and consciousness. 
> 
> Ujjukata (rectitude) = straightness: Characteristic of uprightness 
of
> citta and kaya. Function is to crush tortuousness of c & k.
> Manifestation is non-crookedness. Opposed to hypocrasy and 
fraudulance
> which are crookedness in c & k.
> <end>
> 
> I don't know what "remaining hindrances" means under kammannata 
but the
> rest seems about as clear as abhidhamma gets. 
> 
> good luck,Larry

 
14350 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1)

 
  Hi all, is rupa arammana and rupa the same? Does hardness interrupt the
bhavangha stream? What does the 'sensitive matter' (pasadarupa) that
makes up the sense doors do?

thanks, Larry

 
14351 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:57am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Rob, I don't have any ideas at the moment and my brain doesn't want
to go there but coincidentally I was wondering today about a similar
problem. I was trying to figure out what tadarammana does and I finally
came up with something like what we do when we register a significant
perception. We sort of take extra note of it. The problem is, this is a
complex process that I am using to understand a single citta. The cittas
in a citta process are practically on an atomic scale. And molecules
don't behave like atoms, so to speak. So can the study of citta process
tell us anything about experience?

yes? Larry
--------------
Rob M. wrote:
Hi Larry, 
I have the books that you mentioned and I also find that Nina van
Gorkom's "Cetasikas" book to be very useful. 
Let me explain my problem. 
Each week, I have to deliver a 75 minute Abhidhamma talk to about 75
Chinese laypeople, most of whom do not meditate. My objective is *NOT*
to teach them new Pali terms or new ways of classifying
cittas/cetasikas. I want to relate the subject to their daily lives and
have them leave feeling that the talk was RELEVANT to them. 
I will start the talk with a technical definition (including
characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause) and then
move to relating the subject to daily life. I have definitions of
Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas, but I am having a
problem linking them to daily life. 
Any suggestions? 
Thanks,
Rob M :-)

 
14352 From: robmoult   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Larry, I have a different view of tadarammana.

Some of my students tried to directly link tadarammana to memory and 
I don't think that this is correct.

There are a million million cittas in each second and therefore we 
run through the thought process hundreds of millions of times each 
second. The tadarammana citta "marks" or "registers" an object so 
that the subsequent thought process can use the same object.

Think of the following sequence of thought processes:
1. An external object is reproduced at the mind door
    - Visible object / weak kamma
2. We construct a mind object; we perceive the whole picture
    - Mind object / weak kamma
3. We perceive colour
    - Mind object / weak kamma
4. We concieve the shape of the object
    - Mind object / strong kamma (oops, we've got a concept, now!)
5. We designate the object as a flower
    - Mind object / strong kamma
6. We judge that the flower is a rose
    - Mind object / strong kamma
7. We classify the object as a red rose
    - Mind object / strong kamma
8. We are attached to the red rose
    - Mind object / very strong kamma (lobha!)

Each of the eight listed above are a separate thought process, each 
thought process with 17 cittas. Citta-niyama orders the sequence of 
cittas within a thought process, but it is the tadarammana citta 
that links the object from one thought process to the next.

Following the eight thought processes listed above, there could be 
thousands of subsequent thought processes as we remember prior 
experiences with red roses (mostly lobha-mula, I'm sure!).

If the object is "slight" then there is no tadarammana in a thought 
process and no continuation of the flow of thought processes.

Each of these thought processes create kamma. In other words, we 
generate hundreds of millions of bits of kamma each second. This 
kammic energy is "accumulated" in the "warehouse of consciousness" 
(ayuhana-vinnana) until conditions arise which allow the appropriate 
vipaka to ripen. It is my understanding that this ayuhana-vinnana is 
the foundation of what we call "memory".

I will not say that I am 100% sure of my interpretation... perhaps 
there is an Abhidhamma scholar who can correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks,
Rob M :-) 

---  Larry wrote:
> Hi Rob, I don't have any ideas at the moment and my brain doesn't 
want
> to go there but coincidentally I was wondering today about a 
similar
> problem. I was trying to figure out what tadarammana does and I 
finally
> came up with something like what we do when we register a 
significant
> perception. We sort of take extra note of it. The problem is, this 
is a
> complex process that I am using to understand a single citta. The 
cittas
> in a citta process are practically on an atomic scale. And 
molecules
> don't behave like atoms, so to speak. So can the study of citta 
process
> tell us anything about experience?
> 
> yes? Larry
> --------------
> Rob M. wrote:
> Hi Larry, 
> I have the books that you mentioned and I also find that Nina van
> Gorkom's "Cetasikas" book to be very useful. 
> Let me explain my problem. 
> Each week, I have to deliver a 75 minute Abhidhamma talk to about 
75
> Chinese laypeople, most of whom do not meditate. My objective is 
*NOT*
> to teach them new Pali terms or new ways of classifying
> cittas/cetasikas. I want to relate the subject to their daily 
lives and
> have them leave feeling that the talk was RELEVANT to them. 
> I will start the talk with a technical definition (including
> characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause) and 
then
> move to relating the subject to daily life. I have definitions of
> Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas, but I am having a
> problem linking them to daily life. 
> Any suggestions? 
> Thanks,
> Rob M :-)

 
14353 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:28pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Rob, tadarammana as a linking citta makes sense to me. I think this
group has pretty much given up on understanding anything about memory. I
vaguely recall reading an essay by Nyanaponika Thera defending
abhidhamma's lack of having anything to say about it beyond sanna. Where
did you get this info on ayuhanna-vinnana? As detailed and voluminous as
it is, my impression is that abhidhamma is still only a sketch and
perhaps that is all, or even more than, is necessary. 

As regards the question of whether the study of citta process can tell
us anything about experience, one thing I could say is that we can use
experience to understand citta process. And in so doing, we take a
closer look at experience and perhaps learn a little about who we think
we are. Your point about there being millions of cittas every
micro-second is a bit overwhelming. I don't know what to do with that
idea.

It sounds like you have a pretty sharp group. I'm sure any discussions
you would like to share would be provocative for all.

best wishes, Larry

 
 
14354 From: robmoult   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:18pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Larry,

A couple of months back, I was discussing sloth and torpor. I 
mentioned that these cetasikas only occur in cittas that are 
prompted. A student asked, "Imagine that I am meditating. Sloth and 
torpor arise. What is it that prompted sloth and torpor?".

I said that I did not know but would find out. I looked in the texts 
and could not find an answer. I asked the guy who teaches 
intermediate Abdhidhamma (Bro. Teo - really knowledgeable) and he 
did not know either.

I then went to Dr. K. Sri. Dhammananda. I was nervous, afraid that I 
might embarass him because he might not know the answer. Chief 
Reverend never gives Dhamma talks on Abhidhamma, but I was told that 
he knew the subject well. I did not need to be afraid. He 
immediately told me that the prompting came from the ayuhanna-
vinnana (he also used the more modern term "sub-conscious" to 
describe it, but warned against associating ayuhanna-vinnana with 
modern psychology definitions of sub-conscious). I mentioned that I 
had not come across the concept before. Chief Reverend explained 
that Therevada Abhidhamma did not put much emphasis on this concept, 
but Mahayana Abhidhamma dealt with it more fully. I left it at that.

The fact that there are millions of thought processes every 
microsecond has important ethical implications. Obviously, it is 
imposssible to "be on active guard" watching this many things so 
quickly. The only answer, therefore, is to set up an "automatic 
response mechanism" (a habit - carita), to deal with the vipaka 
cittas as they occur in the thought process (i.e. during the 
determining citta when "free will" is exercised. A habit is only 
instilled trough repeated ACTION. Intellectualizing ain't gonna do 
it. In my earlier posting to Christine (message 14342), I talked 
about going for refuge and taking precepts as a type of ACTION that 
creates a kusala habit.

Pariyatti -> Patipatti -> pativedha (study -> practice -> 
realization). I feel that it is important that we apply the 
Abhidhamma into our daily life as a practice and turn it into action 
wherever possible. Most of us study Abhidhamma to gain a Buddhist 
perspective on life. Perspective is extremely important. If we can 
gain a Buddhist perspective on life, we will perceive everything in 
a different way. Changing our perspective causes a fundamental shift 
in our perception of the world. As we gain a Buddhist perspective, 
the nature of the mind (lobha, dosa, moha) and the characteristics 
of reality (anicca, dukkha, anatta) will be obvious to us; not just 
at a "knowledge level" but at a deeper, "belief / confidence level". 

An untrained ear hears a melody. A trained ear instantly recognizes 
notes, structure, chord progressions, etc. in the music. The trained 
ear has a different, deeper perspective when listening to music. 
A "trained ear" requires considerable study of music theory followed 
up by practice of listening to music. 

Studying Abhidhamma is the first step in getting a "trained mind". 
The next step, which should be done in parallel with study, is the 
practice of Dana, Sila and Bhavana. With a "trained mind" we will 
see things as they truly are. A single day of practice of the Dhamma 
is more valuable than a hundred years of theoretical study.

As you can see, my preferred focus on Abhidhamma is ACTION. 
The "homework" for the class is to do something kusala each week. 
Through this, they build habits and learn that there is a world of 
difference between "enjoying a Dhamma talk" and "listening to a 
Dhamma talk with joy". The pleasant feeling associated with kusala 
is far, far more powerful than the pleasant feeling associated with 
lobha. The pleasant feeling assocaiated with kusala is addictive.

Thanks,
Rob M :-)

---  Larry wrote:
> Hi Rob, tadarammana as a linking citta makes sense to me. I think 
this
> group has pretty much given up on understanding anything about 
memory. I
> vaguely recall reading an essay by Nyanaponika Thera defending
> abhidhamma's lack of having anything to say about it beyond sanna. 
Where
> did you get this info on ayuhanna-vinnana? As detailed and 
voluminous as
> it is, my impression is that abhidhamma is still only a sketch and
> perhaps that is all, or even more than, is necessary. 
> 
> As regards the question of whether the study of citta process can 
tell
> us anything about experience, one thing I could say is that we can 
use
> experience to understand citta process. And in so doing, we take a
> closer look at experience and perhaps learn a little about who we 
think
> we are. Your point about there being millions of cittas every
> micro-second is a bit overwhelming. I don't know what to do with 
that
> idea.
> 
> It sounds like you have a pretty sharp group. I'm sure any 
discussions
> you would like to share would be provocative for all.
> 
> best wishes, Larry

 
14355 From: goglerr   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 2:34pm
Subject: Re: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Rob M (and Larry),

I like the your below-mentioned sequence. Similar to Ledi Sayadaw's 
expalanation. A food for thought. 

I wanna ramble something on 'memory'. As to my understanding, all 
citta have sanna as their associated cetasika, as well as the other 6 
universal cetasikas. Each cognitive process (mind or body process) 
run through very rapidly, that is to say, they arise and passes away 
very fast. So too, a 'collective of sanna', which are also arising 
and passing away with the cittas, formed the memory/recognition 
(memories), appearing as mental images, mental vision and recalling 
process. Sustaining/recalling those memories (long or short term) are 
conditioned and strenghten (or weaken) by other associated cetasikas 
too.   

A little sharing,
goglerr

---  "robmoult"  wrote:
> Hi Larry, I have a different view of tadarammana.
> 
> Some of my students tried to directly link tadarammana to memory 
and 
> I don't think that this is correct.
> 
> There are a million million cittas in each second and therefore we 
> run through the thought process hundreds of millions of times each 
> second. The tadarammana citta "marks" or "registers" an object so 
> that the subsequent thought process can use the same object.
> 
> Think of the following sequence of thought processes:
> 1. An external object is reproduced at the mind door
>     - Visible object / weak kamma
> 2. We construct a mind object; we perceive the whole picture
>     - Mind object / weak kamma
> 3. We perceive colour
>     - Mind object / weak kamma
> 4. We concieve the shape of the object
>     - Mind object / strong kamma (oops, we've got a concept, now!)
> 5. We designate the object as a flower
>     - Mind object / strong kamma
> 6. We judge that the flower is a rose
>     - Mind object / strong kamma
> 7. We classify the object as a red rose
>     - Mind object / strong kamma
> 8. We are attached to the red rose
>     - Mind object / very strong kamma (lobha!)
> 
> Each of the eight listed above are a separate thought process, each 
> thought process with 17 cittas. Citta-niyama orders the sequence of 
> cittas within a thought process, but it is the tadarammana citta 
> that links the object from one thought process to the next.
> 
> Following the eight thought processes listed above, there could be 
> thousands of subsequent thought processes as we remember prior 
> experiences with red roses (mostly lobha-mula, I'm sure!).
> 
> If the object is "slight" then there is no tadarammana in a thought 
> process and no continuation of the flow of thought processes.
> 
> Each of these thought processes create kamma. In other words, we 
> generate hundreds of millions of bits of kamma each second. This 
> kammic energy is "accumulated" in the "warehouse of consciousness" 
> (ayuhana-vinnana) until conditions arise which allow the 
appropriate 
> vipaka to ripen. It is my understanding that this ayuhana-vinnana 
is 
> the foundation of what we call "memory".
> 
> I will not say that I am 100% sure of my interpretation... perhaps 
> there is an Abhidhamma scholar who can correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rob M :-) 
> 
> ---  Larry wrote:
> > Hi Rob, I don't have any ideas at the moment and my brain doesn't 
> want
> > to go there but coincidentally I was wondering today about a 
> similar
> > problem. I was trying to figure out what tadarammana does and I 
> finally
> > came up with something like what we do when we register a 
> significant
> > perception. We sort of take extra note of it. The problem is, 
this 
> is a
> > complex process that I am using to understand a single citta. The 
> cittas
> > in a citta process are practically on an atomic scale. And 
> molecules
> > don't behave like atoms, so to speak. So can the study of citta 
> process
> > tell us anything about experience?
> > 
> > yes? Larry
> > --------------
> > Rob M. wrote:
> > Hi Larry, 
> > I have the books that you mentioned and I also find that Nina van
> > Gorkom's "Cetasikas" book to be very useful. 
> > Let me explain my problem. 
> > Each week, I have to deliver a 75 minute Abhidhamma talk to about 
> 75
> > Chinese laypeople, most of whom do not meditate. My objective is 
> *NOT*
> > to teach them new Pali terms or new ways of classifying
> > cittas/cetasikas. I want to relate the subject to their daily 
> lives and
> > have them leave feeling that the talk was RELEVANT to them. 
> > I will start the talk with a technical definition (including
> > characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause) and 
> then
> > move to relating the subject to daily life. I have definitions of
> > Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas, but I am having a
> > problem linking them to daily life. 
> > Any suggestions? 
> > Thanks,
> > Rob M :-)

 
14356 From: goglerr   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 2:58pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Rob M,
---  "robmoult"  wrote:

> Hi Larry,
> 
> A couple of months back, I was discussing sloth and torpor. I 
> mentioned that these cetasikas only occur in cittas that are 
> prompted. A student asked, "Imagine that I am meditating. Sloth and 
> torpor arise. What is it that prompted sloth and torpor?".
> 

Recently, I was going through Samyutta Nikaya (A New Translation by 
B.Bodhi) and I so happened to see the paragraph on page 1569. On this 
chapter - the nutriment for hindrances (snip)- The Buddha says:

"And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen 
sloth and torpor and for the increase and expansion of arisen sloth 
and torpor? There are, bhikkhus, discontented, lethargy, lazy 
streching, drowsiness after meals, sluggishness of mind: frquently 
giving careless attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of 
the unarisen sloth and torpor and for the increase and expansion of 
arisen sloth and torpor."  

I definitely know if we eat too much in the afternoon, will actually 
makes us drowsy!! :-)

Goglerr

 
14357 From: Sarah   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 5:52pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts (& the other thread)

 
  Dear Rob M (& Larry & All),

Rob M wrote:

“There is however, one point in this book that I am not sure about. 
When listing the factors required to constitute a breaking of the 
precept of "false speech", Bhikkhu Bodhi states that the conveying 
of a false impression is enough, it is not required that the other 
person believe what you have said is true. This would mean that 
teasing and joking would fall under the purview of this precept. In 
fact, Bhikkhu Bodhi states that joking, exaggerating and flattery 
are examples of false speech motivated by moha. I am not sure about 
this because, in cases such as this, there is no intention / 
volition / thought to deceive. Anybody have any comments on this?”
*********
I’m just going to make a few comments (thoughts out loud) and use this
area for another attempt at the practical applicability of equanimity and
the 6 Pairs you asked about....hmm, useful for revision and consideration
for me. (Please excuse any stating of the obvious, all of which I realize
you both know).

Firstly, if the citta isn’t kusala (wholesome), it must be akusala
(unwholesome)-- in the javana process-- (except in the case of arahants)
as I understand. So if the speech isn’t motivated by kusala cittas, it’s
motivated by akusala cittas. This means whenever the cittas (moments of
consciousness) aren’t concerned with dana, sila or bhavana (mental
development --samatha or vipassana), they must be akusala and motivated by
lobha, dosa or moha (greed, aversion or ignorance). Right speech or samma
vaca is the moment --i.e. the citta --  which abstains from unwholesome
speech. At the moment this sobhana citta (beautiful consciousness) arises,
it has to be accompanied by all these sobhana mental factors we’re
discussing--i.e equanimity and the 6 Pairs.

Of course, as you say, the intention is of most importance and it can be
difficult to tell when the citta is kusala or akusala or whether there is
any intention to deceive in your examples. There are also different
degrees of abstaining from ‘false speech’ discussed in the Atthasalini.
Even though the sotapanna has eradicated lying, they may still slander,
use harsh speech and idle talk. .Only the arahat has eradicated the
tendency to idle speech completely. So just because the speech is
motivated by moha and unwholesome, doesn’t mean it is ‘lying’ or a breach
of the precepts.
*****
In a day, working with students and living in a city, I speak a lot. Most
of it is unwholesome, even if it wouldn’t be classified as false or
breaking a precept. (I’ll leave others to find refs to exactly what is
included here). What I realize is that much of what I used to think of as
being quite harmless and ‘innocent’ is quite impure and the kilesa slowly
become more apparent. 

When there is exaggerating, joking or flattery, they are usually motivated
by lobha. There may not be an intention to deceive, but there is an
intention to ‘gain’  We discussed the advice to Rahula before who was
instructed ‘I will not speak a lie, even for fun’. If I say to Jon,
‘there’s a gigantic cockroach in the bath’, I know he won’t believe it is
‘gigantic’, but still the intention is to get his attention quickly and
probably to ‘momentarily’ deceive him in this way. Of course, even if we
don’t speak out or live on our own, these same unwholesome thoughts occur.

Let me see if I can ‘apply’ our mental factors to these examples:

1. Tatramajjhattata/upekkha (equanimity). When there is the intention to
attract the other’s interest in what we say or to create fun with a child,
there is no ‘impartiality’ or ‘mental attitude of balance’ at that moment.

2.Passaddhi c&k (tranquility). At these moments of joking and
exagerration, there is restlessness which accompanies all akusala cittas.
There is no calmness which accompanies moments of metta and dana, for
example.We’re restlessly trying to create an ‘effect’.

3.Lahuta c&k (lightness). When we’re carried away with our ‘story’ or the
fun of the situation, there is no energy for kusala states. There is
laziness of the mental states. As you said, sloth and torpor arise with
‘prompted’ cittas, destroying any inclination for mental development,
dana, metta or sila. They can arise at any time, even when conventionally
we may say we’re ‘full of energy’ such as when we’re teasing or having
fun. The cittas are not ‘light’ at these times in the sense of being free
from ‘heavy’ kilesa.

4.Muduta c&k (malleability).  When we’re pleased with the effect of our
joke or flattery or by the story, mana can arise very easily I think. One
is pleased with the effect on the children when they enjoy the joke. If we
think it is wholesome, there may be wrong view too.At these times there is
mental rigidity or lack of appreciation of metta, or other kinds of
wholesome staes. One is ‘fixed’ on the course of lobha or moha.

5.Kammannata c&k (wieldiness).  Wieldiness is opposed to the ‘remaining
hindrances’ of lobha and dosa  in particular, I think. When we’re talking
about the ‘gigantic cockroach’ (either with lobha or dosa), there’s no
calm or patience for metta or dana at that time. The mind is ‘rigid’ like
the untempered gold and ‘fixed’ on its story.

6.Pugunnata c&k (proficiency). When there is unwholesome or false speech,
there is a lack of competence or cinfidence in the value of skilful
speech. the harm of the unwholesomeness isn’t seen at that moment  and so
there is an ‘inefficiency’ in the development of wholesome states.

7.Ujjukata c&k (rectitude). These are the easiest to apply to our
examples. When there is ‘rectitude’ or ‘uprightness’, they ‘crush
crookedness’ (Atth.) and are the opponents of ‘deception and craftiness’.
It may seem like a real storm in a tea-cup to consider the trick on my
students or the exagerration as examples of ‘deception and craftiness’,
but I find it helpful (though rather disconcerting to consider). This one
is also the opponent of insincere flattery and hypocrisy and hinting for
gain.
**********
I know I haven’t really answered your question above -- hopefully someone
else may. Thanks for prompting these reflections and hope there’s
something of use on the practical applicability of these states.

Sarah
======================================================




 
14358 From: Sarah   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 6:13pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta References about Rebirth

 
  Dear All,

When I replied yesterday on the ‘rebirth theme’, I quoted the following:

.> "After discerning the material body's conditions in this way, he again
> discerns the mental body in the way beginnng: 'due to eye and to visible
> object eye-consciousness arises' (Sii72, Mi,111).
> 
> When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is
> due
> to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the past too its
> occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence
> will be due to conditions.
> 
> When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is
> to
> say, the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus: "Was I in
> the past..........<etc> and also the five kinds of uncertainty about the
> future stated thus: "Shall I be in the future?...<etc>., and also the
> six
> kinds of uncertainty about the present stated thus: "Am
> I?...<etc>"(Mi,8) 
> (end quote from Vism XIX,5)
> *****
 
I just came across one of Gogglerr’s helpful posts on rebirth
consciousness (to Larry) and I’d like to repost the main part here as I
think it may be a little clearer to some of us as to why the understanding
of present namas and rupas is the only way to develop confidence that the
same process occurred in the past and will continue in future at the end
of this ‘life’.The applicability of the details from the Abhidhamma may be
more apparent in this area too:
*****

“Birth and death are broad conventional phrases to denote arising and 
passing away of nama and rupa. Patisandhi citta, cuti citta, and 
other kinds of cittas are functional phrases to indicate the basic 
functions of the cittas. Therefore the functions make each citta 
unique in abhidhamma sense. 

Every citta (including patisandhi and cuti citta) has to undergo 
three phases, i.e the arising, the middle and the passing away 
(decay). For patisandhi and cuti citta, in an existencial realm (a 
life faculty) e.g a human realm, the first citta in that human 
existence is patisandhi citta and the last citta is cuti citta. In 
other words, another angle, at the last moment we die that is cuti 
citta is followed immediately by patisandhi citta of the next life. 
So they are two different cittas. 

Patisandhi citta is a single citta arising together with cetasikas. 
At the moment of physical death, either one of the three objects 
experience at any of the 6 sense doors, i.e. a kamma, a sign of kamma 
and a sign of destiny. Long long discussion, difficult to eleborate 
but kindly refer to Abhidhammattha Sangaha, translated by B. Bodhi, 
V$435, pg 221 and III$17 pg 136-139. “
**********
Thanks Goggy.

Sarah
=====
 


 
14359 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:28pm
Subject: Re: Refuge and Precepts

 
  Dear Ruth, Howard, Rob M, Jean-Francois, and Sarah,

Thank you all for your helpful replies on this topic. 

Ruth - you say, "One is supposed to approach this undertaking without 
any doubts - many of which I still harbor."
>>>Any doubts that you feel would more than likely be things we have 
all felt in the past or, for some of us, still feel currently.  For 
instance, I came to a Buddhism that was presented as a sweet tranquil 
balm - a solution to my suffering during a divorce. Under those 
circumstances, I had *great* difficulty coming to terms with 
Siddhartha Gautama leaving his wife immediately after the birth of 
their baby Rahula.  As I often deal with women in just these 
searingly painful circumstances in my everday work, I still find some 
references and attitudes to women and children in the scriptures very 
difficult to comprehend spiritually.<<<

Rob M - 
>>> Sarah has given an excellent answer to your query re "false 
speech".  May I just add a sutta quote on Pointless Talk....  I 
always appreciate people's musings, loved your story, and didn't find 
it longwinded at all. :)
 p. 1843 Mahavagga of the Samyutta Nikaya (Saccasamyutta)
10 (10) Pointless Talk

"Bhikkus, do not engage in the various kinds of pointless talk, that 
is, talk about kings, thieves, and ministers of state; talk about 
armies, dangers, and wars; talk about food, drink, garments, and 
beds; talk about garlands and scents; talk about relations, vehicles, 
villages, towns, cities and countries; talk about women and talk 
about heroes; street talk and talk by the well; talk about those 
departed in days gone by; rambling chitchat; speculation about the 
world and about the sea; talk about becoming this or that. For what 
reason?  Because, bhikkhus, this talk is unbeneficial, irrelevant to 
the fundamentals of the holy life, and does not lead to revulsion, to 
dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to 
enlightenment, to Nibbana."<<<

Howard - 
>>>Thank you for your post.  I think how you see the matter is how I 
see the matter too, though I was not able to express myself so 
well.<<<

Jean-francois - 
>>>Glad to hear Walpula Rahula's opinion.  I never doubted I was a 
Buddhist - I just feel the need to be able to express the reverence, 
the sense of sacredness, more formally.  ..... hmmm ... a ritual to 
thank your boss when he gives you a big file :) I must remember that!
>>>

Sarah -
>>> I really appreciated your post - right speech is the hardest 
precept for me to keep.  My tongue literally runs away with me 
sometimes.  Perhaps it gets too much practice, being the main tool I 
use for my work.
One question ..... I don't suppose (in line with your  post) if one 
is moved to severely edit one's past posts, that it would be 
allowed? :):)

metta,
Christine

 
14360 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 5:35pm
Subject: Jon/ More on Spirals Re: [dsg] Re: Vism study - role of jhanas in enlightenment

 
  Hi again, Jon -

       I just read the first two suttas from the book of tens in the A. 
Nikaya, and they are quite relevant to what we were discussing (growing out 
of VI, 50). In the first of these, the Buddha puts forth the following chain 
of conditionality:

       Virtuous ways of conduct
       ->
       Non-remorse
       ->
       Gladness
       ->
       Joy
       ->
       Serenity
       ->
       Happiness
       ->
       Concentration of the mind
       ->
       Knowledge and vision of things as they really are
       ->
       Revulsion and dispassion
       ->
       Knowledge and vision of liberation.

       This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What is 
interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second sutta of 
the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality as 
above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once 
again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the 
preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding 
qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the 
near shore to the far shore."
       This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting, and 
is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the 
factors affect each other.

With metta,
Howard
       

In a message dated 7/13/02 10:49:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard 
writes:


> 
> Hi, Jon -
> 
> In a message dated 7/13/02 9:58:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Jon writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Howard
> > 
> > I thought your diagrammatic representation below to be an interesting way
> > of presenting the sutta (probably comes naturally to a mathematician!).
> > 
> > --- Howard wrote: 
> > > Hi again, Victor (and Jon) -
> > >        It happens that the role of right concentration is part of what
> > is 
> > > discussed in the the sutta, VI, 50 [Step by Step], from the Anguttara
> > > Nikaya 
> > > (one of the three suttas I mentioned in a post to Jon). 
> Diagramatically,
> > what  is said there is the following:
> > > 
> > >        Sense control
> > >        ->
> > >        Virtue
> > >        ->
> > >        Right concentration
> > >        ->
> > >        Knowledge and vision of things as they really are
> > >        ->
> > >        Revulsion and dispassion
> > >        ->
> > >        Knowledge and vision of liberation.
> > > 
> > >        The role of Right concentration is, according to this, quite
> > pivotal. 
> > > That was the purpose of my including that sutta in the list of three.
> > 
> > I do not for a moment question the importance of Right Concentration (or
> > of any of the 8 path factors for that matter).
> > 
> > However, would you not agree that the sense control, virtue,
> > concentration, knowledge and vision, etc, are to be developed
> > concurrently, as far as that is possible in the individual case, each
> > supporting the development of the other, and not in an exclusively
> > sequential manner? 
> > 
> --------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        I would, indeed, agree with that. In fact, I picture bhavana (in its 
> 
> general sense) as proceeding rather like an ever-widening spiral, so that 
> "later" factors developed in an interior portion of the spiral are 
> conditions 
> for "early" factors developed in more exterior portions (if you can 
> envisage 
> what I mean). This sutta happens to display certain basic  
> conditionalities. 
> I think it is important in that it shows the fundamental role that right 
> concentration plays. It shows it as a condition for the arising of 
> liberative 
> wisdom, and, by doing so, it may serve as a cautionary note for any folks 
> who 
> might happen to downplay the importance of concentration at that formative 
> stage of practice.
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> > 
> > Otherwise, you would have to say that virtue must be perfected before
> > Right Concentration can be developed, and sense control even before
> > virtue.
> > 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        That would be a great error. On that basis, one could never get 
> started! ;-) This is exactly my point with regard to spiral development. A 
> degree of sense control leads to a degree of virtue, ..., leads to a degree 
> 
> of wisdom, leads, yet again, to a further degree of sense control, etc, 
> around and around, wider and wider.
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> > 
> > Jon
> > 
> > 
> ==========================
> With metta,
> Howard
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14361 From: Ruth Klein   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:44pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts

 
  Christine (et al),

> -----Original Message-----
> From: christine_forsyth 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 7:28 AM

> Ruth - you say, "One is supposed to approach this undertaking without
> any doubts - many of which I still harbor."
> >>>Any doubts that you feel would more than likely be things we have
> all felt in the past or, for some of us, still feel currently.  For
> instance, I came to a Buddhism that was presented as a sweet tranquil
> balm - a solution to my suffering during a divorce. Under those
> circumstances, I had *great* difficulty coming to terms with
> Siddhartha Gautama leaving his wife immediately after the birth of
> their baby Rahula.  As I often deal with women in just these
> searingly painful circumstances in my everday work, I still find some
> references and attitudes to women and children in the scriptures very
> difficult to comprehend spiritually.<<<

I couldn't agree more!  One of my most frequent doubts is the g-dlike
reverence (bowing, statues, etc) to Siddhartha Gautama.   I understand,
intellectually, the significance of a man achieving enlightenment.  And that
bowing, to someone brought up in an Asian culture, is a gesture of respect,
and used for all teachers, dignitaries, etc - almost like a Western
handshake.  (Ok, not quite, but you get the idea... its a cultural thing.)

However, I cannot help but stop myself from setting up my own altar or
bowing to the Buddha, simply because of the conditioned beliefs of "Thou
shalt have no other g-d before me." and "Thou shalt not make unto thee any
graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above...."

Also, if I am not mistaken, though the earlier suttas expound that
Siddhartha Gautama was a man, some of the later ones (and works such as the
Buddhavamsa) have elevated him past the human realm to a superman,
Maha-Purisa.  (See George Bond: "The Word of the Buddha: The Tipitaka and
its Interpretation in Theravada Buddhism", M.D. Gunasena & Co, 1982).

I don't know if I will ever 'resolve' these internal conflicts; but I need
to explore them further.

> Sarah -
> >>> I really appreciated your post - right speech is the hardest
> precept for me to keep.  My tongue literally runs away with me
> sometimes.  Perhaps it gets too much practice, being the main tool I
> use for my work.
> One question ..... I don't suppose (in line with your  post) if one
> is moved to severely edit one's past posts, that it would be
> allowed? :):)
>

!!!!  :)

Ruth

 
14362 From: Jaran Jainhuknan   
Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:00pm
Subject: RE: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Dear Rob:

Welcome to DSG. It's good to know that there is a dhamma class near
Singapore. Maybe one of these days, I will join you.

Regarding Tatramajjhattata(TMT) and the six pairs of kusala, I'm
listening to the talks by K.Sujin on Sobhanadhamma (in Thai).

She spends quite a lot of  time on these.

TMT is very relevant to our lives indeed.

TMT is the cetasika that makes you have right thoughts (among many other
functions, discussed later) not to violate the precepts, be kind to
people etc. From the moment one listens to dhamma and begins to
understand the teaching, and what your lives and the world are all
about, TMT is already hard at work directing one to the right thoughts.

The moment one knows that one is not being kind to others and begins to
be otherwise, is also TMT.

Any moment of kusala arises because of TMT.

K.Sujin has also included many levels of panna in this TMT. Your class
won't be until Sunday, so I have some time to dig up the tapes or CD.

Later,
jaran

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:29:09 -0000
   From: "robmoult" 
Subject:

I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala
cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya
muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata,
Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople.

The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on
application in daily life.

I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas?

 
14363 From: robmoult   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 0:51am
Subject: Re: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Jaran,

As it turns out, this weeks class is cancelled because we are having 
a Sangdikha Dana, so my talk isn't until next week.

Is this material available in English (I don't speak Thai)? I will 
be in Singapore this Thursday evening and Friday morning.

Thanks,
Rob M :-)


---  "Jaran Jainhuknan"  wrote:
> Dear Rob:
> 
> Welcome to DSG. It's good to know that there is a dhamma class near
> Singapore. Maybe one of these days, I will join you.
> 
> Regarding Tatramajjhattata(TMT) and the six pairs of kusala, I'm
> listening to the talks by K.Sujin on Sobhanadhamma (in Thai).
> 
> She spends quite a lot of  time on these.
> 
> TMT is very relevant to our lives indeed.
> 
> TMT is the cetasika that makes you have right thoughts (among many 
other
> functions, discussed later) not to violate the precepts, be kind to
> people etc. From the moment one listens to dhamma and begins to
> understand the teaching, and what your lives and the world are all
> about, TMT is already hard at work directing one to the right 
thoughts.
> 
> The moment one knows that one is not being kind to others and 
begins to
> be otherwise, is also TMT.
> 
> Any moment of kusala arises because of TMT.
> 
> K.Sujin has also included many levels of panna in this TMT. Your 
class
> won't be until Sunday, so I have some time to dig up the tapes or 
CD.
> 
> Later,
> jaran
> 
> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:29:09 -0000
>    From: "robmoult" 
> Subject:
> 
> I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala
> cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya
> muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata,
> Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople.
> 
> The presentation should not be too theoretical, but more focused on
> application in daily life.
> 
> I'm stumped. Anybody got any ideas?

 
14364 From: search   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:40am
Subject: Re : [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts

 
  Christine wrote:



>>>>Glad to hear Walpula Rahula's opinion.  I never doubted I was a
> Buddhist - I just feel the need to be able to express the reverence,
> the sense of sacredness, more formally.  .....

That is exactly what I feel, too...

Jean-François

 
14365 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Re: [dsg] welcome

 
  Hallo Jean Francois,
Welcome to the group. I am very glad you have joined and I hope it will be
useful to you and that we can correspond about many kinds of interesting
dhamma topics,
Best wishes, 
from Nina. 

> 
> A few words to Nina: Hallo Nina, hoe gaat het?
> 
>

 
14366 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Dear Rob M, welcome to the group. Yes, I would be interested to hear
questions from your students about Abhidhamma.
As to the six pairs, you could get also more info from Ven Nyanaponika,
Abhidhamma Studies. He deals with the six pairs and it is very interesting
what he wrote. 
We can see that there are many sobhana cetasikas assisting kusala citta. You
could ask your group whether they can notice a difference when the citta is
akusala or kusala. One of the pairs pertains to citta and one to the
cetasikas. Let us take feeling: can they notice the difference between
pleasant feeling that is akusala and that is kusala? Akusala dhammas are
rigid, inert, stiff, crooked. When the six pairs assist kusala citta, the
citta and cetasikas are not rigid, inert, stiff, crooked. We cannot catch
all these cetasikas, but the Buddha classified them all, and this helps us
to see that citta arises because of very intricate conditions. Nobody can
control what citta arises at a particular moment. However much we want citta
to be kusala, when there are not the appropriate conditions, it is
impossible. 
There were former posts about tatramajjhattata. People get confused about it
and wonder whether it is upekkha feeling. You will see. You could ask the
audience lots of questions to make them think, and I am sure you give them
examples from daily life. They won't fall asleep.
Wishing you success, Nina.
op 15-07-2002 07:29 schreef robmoult op <>:

> I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala
> cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya
> muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata,
> Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople.

 
14367 From: robmoult   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:08am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts (& the other thread)

 
  Hi Sarah,

Great stuff!!

Teasing, joking, exaggerating, etc. is definitely akusala. However, 
there is lots of stuff that is akusala that doesn't get elevated to 
the level of "violating a precept". 

Thanks,
Rob M :-)

---  Sarah  wrote:
> Dear Rob M (& Larry & All),
> 
> Rob M wrote:
> 
> "There is however, one point in this book that I am not sure 
about. 
> When listing the factors required to constitute a breaking of the 
> precept of "false speech", Bhikkhu Bodhi states that the conveying 
> of a false impression is enough, it is not required that the other 
> person believe what you have said is true. This would mean that 
> teasing and joking would fall under the purview of this precept. 
In 
> fact, Bhikkhu Bodhi states that joking, exaggerating and flattery 
> are examples of false speech motivated by moha. I am not sure 
about 
> this because, in cases such as this, there is no intention / 
> volition / thought to deceive. Anybody have any comments on this?"
> *********
> I'm just going to make a few comments (thoughts out loud) and use 
this
> area for another attempt at the practical applicability of 
equanimity and
> the 6 Pairs you asked about....hmm, useful for revision and 
consideration
> for me. (Please excuse any stating of the obvious, all of which I 
realize
> you both know).
> 
> Firstly, if the citta isn't kusala (wholesome), it must be akusala
> (unwholesome)-- in the javana process-- (except in the case of 
arahants)
> as I understand. So if the speech isn't motivated by kusala 
cittas, it's
> motivated by akusala cittas. This means whenever the cittas 
(moments of
> consciousness) aren't concerned with dana, sila or bhavana (mental
> development --samatha or vipassana), they must be akusala and 
motivated by
> lobha, dosa or moha (greed, aversion or ignorance). Right speech 
or samma
> vaca is the moment --i.e. the citta --  which abstains from 
unwholesome
> speech. At the moment this sobhana citta (beautiful consciousness) 
arises,
> it has to be accompanied by all these sobhana mental factors we're
> discussing--i.e equanimity and the 6 Pairs.
> 
> Of course, as you say, the intention is of most importance and it 
can be
> difficult to tell when the citta is kusala or akusala or whether 
there is
> any intention to deceive in your examples. There are also different
> degrees of abstaining from `false speech' discussed in the 
Atthasalini.
> Even though the sotapanna has eradicated lying, they may still 
slander,
> use harsh speech and idle talk. .Only the arahat has eradicated the
> tendency to idle speech completely. So just because the speech is
> motivated by moha and unwholesome, doesn't mean it is `lying' or a 
breach
> of the precepts.
> *****
> In a day, working with students and living in a city, I speak a 
lot. Most
> of it is unwholesome, even if it wouldn't be classified as false or
> breaking a precept. (I'll leave others to find refs to exactly 
what is
> included here). What I realize is that much of what I used to 
think of as
> being quite harmless and `innocent' is quite impure and the kilesa 
slowly
> become more apparent. 
> 
> When there is exaggerating, joking or flattery, they are usually 
motivated
> by lobha. There may not be an intention to deceive, but there is an
> intention to `gain'  We discussed the advice to Rahula before who 
was
> instructed `I will not speak a lie, even for fun'. If I say to Jon,
> `there's a gigantic cockroach in the bath', I know he won't 
believe it is
> `gigantic', but still the intention is to get his attention 
quickly and
> probably to `momentarily' deceive him in this way. Of course, even 
if we
> don't speak out or live on our own, these same unwholesome 
thoughts occur.
> 
> Let me see if I can `apply' our mental factors to these examples:
> 
> 1. Tatramajjhattata/upekkha (equanimity). When there is the 
intention to
> attract the other's interest in what we say or to create fun with 
a child,
> there is no `impartiality' or `mental attitude of balance' at that 
moment.
> 
> 2.Passaddhi c&k (tranquility). At these moments of joking and
> exagerration, there is restlessness which accompanies all akusala 
cittas.
> There is no calmness which accompanies moments of metta and dana, 
for
> example.We're restlessly trying to create an `effect'.
> 
> 3.Lahuta c&k (lightness). When we're carried away with our `story' 
or the
> fun of the situation, there is no energy for kusala states. There 
is
> laziness of the mental states. As you said, sloth and torpor arise 
with
> `prompted' cittas, destroying any inclination for mental 
development,
> dana, metta or sila. They can arise at any time, even when 
conventionally
> we may say we're `full of energy' such as when we're teasing or 
having
> fun. The cittas are not `light' at these times in the sense of 
being free
> from `heavy' kilesa.
> 
> 4.Muduta c&k (malleability).  When we're pleased with the effect 
of our
> joke or flattery or by the story, mana can arise very easily I 
think. One
> is pleased with the effect on the children when they enjoy the 
joke. If we
> think it is wholesome, there may be wrong view too.At these times 
there is
> mental rigidity or lack of appreciation of metta, or other kinds of
> wholesome staes. One is `fixed' on the course of lobha or moha.
> 
> 5.Kammannata c&k (wieldiness).  Wieldiness is opposed to 
the `remaining
> hindrances' of lobha and dosa  in particular, I think. When we're 
talking
> about the `gigantic cockroach' (either with lobha or dosa), 
there's no
> calm or patience for metta or dana at that time. The mind 
is `rigid' like
> the untempered gold and `fixed' on its story.
> 
> 6.Pugunnata c&k (proficiency). When there is unwholesome or false 
speech,
> there is a lack of competence or cinfidence in the value of skilful
> speech. the harm of the unwholesomeness isn't seen at that moment  
and so
> there is an `inefficiency' in the development of wholesome states.
> 
> 7.Ujjukata c&k (rectitude). These are the easiest to apply to our
> examples. When there is `rectitude' or `uprightness', they `crush
> crookedness' (Atth.) and are the opponents of `deception and 
craftiness'.
> It may seem like a real storm in a tea-cup to consider the trick 
on my
> students or the exagerration as examples of `deception and 
craftiness',
> but I find it helpful (though rather disconcerting to consider). 
This one
> is also the opponent of insincere flattery and hypocrisy and 
hinting for
> gain.
> **********
> I know I haven't really answered your question above -- hopefully 
someone
> else may. Thanks for prompting these reflections and hope there's
> something of use on the practical applicability of these states.
> 
> Sarah
> ======================================================


 
14368 From: robmoult   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:16am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Hi Nina,

Thanks for the input. I will consult Ven Nyanaponika's book as well.

I am curious. Have you considered releasing an expanded version of 
ADL, to include some of the issues & misunderstandings raised in 
this group?

Thanks,
Rob :-)

---  Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> Dear Rob M, welcome to the group. Yes, I would be interested to 
hear
> questions from your students about Abhidhamma.
> As to the six pairs, you could get also more info from Ven 
Nyanaponika,
> Abhidhamma Studies. He deals with the six pairs and it is very 
interesting
> what he wrote. 
> We can see that there are many sobhana cetasikas assisting kusala 
citta. You
> could ask your group whether they can notice a difference when the 
citta is
> akusala or kusala. One of the pairs pertains to citta and one to 
the
> cetasikas. Let us take feeling: can they notice the difference 
between
> pleasant feeling that is akusala and that is kusala? Akusala 
dhammas are
> rigid, inert, stiff, crooked. When the six pairs assist kusala 
citta, the
> citta and cetasikas are not rigid, inert, stiff, crooked. We 
cannot catch
> all these cetasikas, but the Buddha classified them all, and this 
helps us
> to see that citta arises because of very intricate conditions. 
Nobody can
> control what citta arises at a particular moment. However much we 
want citta
> to be kusala, when there are not the appropriate conditions, it is
> impossible. 
> There were former posts about tatramajjhattata. People get 
confused about it
> and wonder whether it is upekkha feeling. You will see. You could 
ask the
> audience lots of questions to make them think, and I am sure you 
give them
> examples from daily life. They won't fall asleep.
> Wishing you success, Nina.
> op 15-07-2002 07:29 schreef robmoult op <>:
> 
> > I need to present Tatramajjhattata and the six pairs of kusala
> > cetasikas (Citta/Kaya passaddhi, Citta/Kaya lahuta, Citta/Kaya
> > muduta, Citta/Kaya kammannata, Citta/Kaya pagunnata,
> > Cittujjukata/Kayujjukata) to a group of laypeople.

 
 
14369 From: <> 
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:23am
Subject: ADL ch. 16 (2)

 
  http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm

Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 16 (2)

The 'Discourse on the Six Sixes' (Middle Length Sayings III. No.148) is
very helpful for the understanding of realities which present themselves
through the six doors. When the Buddha was staying in the Jeta Grove in
Anathapindika's monastery, he explained to the monks about the six
'internal sense-fields' and the six 'external sense-fields' (in Pali :
ayatana). The six 'internal sense-fields' are the six doors through
which objects are experienced. The six 'external sense-fields' are the
objects, experienced through the six doors. The Buddha then explained
about the six classes of consciousness which arise in dependence on the
six doors and about the objects experienced through the six doors. He
also explained about six kinds of contact (phassa), six kinds of feeling
conditioned by the six kinds of contact, and six kinds of craving
conditioned by the six kinds of feeling. Thus there are 'Six Sixes', six
groups of six realities. 

The Buddha then explained about the person who has attachments, aversion
or ignorance with regard to what he experiences through the six doors.
We read : 

'Monks, visual consciousness arises because of eye and visible object,
the meeting of the three is contact; an experience arises conditioned by
contact that is pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant. He,
being impinged on by a pleasant feeling, delights, rejoices and persists
in cleaving to it; a tendency to attachment is latent in him. Being
impinged on by a painful feeling, he grieves, mourns, laments, beats his
breast and falls into disillusion; a tendency to repugnance is latent in
him. Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor
pleasant, he does not comprehend the origin nor the going down nor the
satisfaction nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it as it
really is; a tendency to ignorance is latent in him...'

The same is said with regard to the other doorways. 

The person who has 'wise attention' instead of attachment, aversion or
ignorance can make an end to the cycle of birth and death. Further on we
read : 

'... He, being impinged on by pleasant feeling, does not delight,
rejoice or persist in cleaving to it; a tendency to attachment is not
latent in him. Being impinged on by a painful feeling, he does not
grieve, mourn, lament, beat his breast or fall into disillusion ; a
tendency to repugnance is not latent in him. Being impinged on by a
feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he comprehends the origin
and the going down and the satisfaction and the peril of that feeling
and the escape as it really is, a tendency to ignorance is not latent in
him. That he, monks, by getting rid of any tendency to attachment to a
pleasant feeling, by driving out any tendency to repugnance for a
painful feeling, by rooting out any tendency to ignorance concerning a
feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, by getting rid of
ignorance, by making knowledge arise, should here and now be an
end-maker of dukkha--this situation exists.

Seeing this thus, monks, the instructed disciple of the ariyans turns
away from eye, turns away from material shapes, turns away from visual
consciousness, turns away from impact on the eye, turns away from
feeling, turns away from craving. He turns away from ear, he turns away
from sounds.... He turns away from nose, he turns away from smells....
He turns away from tongue, he turns away from tastes.... He turns away
from body, he turns away from touches.... He turns away from mind, he
turns away from mental states, he turns away from mental consciousness,
he turns away from impact on the mind, he turns away from feeling, he
turns away from craving, Turning away he is dispassionate; by dispassion
he is freed; in freedom is the knowledge that he is freed, and he
comprehends: Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the Brahma-faring,
done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so .' 

Thus spoke the Lord. Delighted, these monks rejoiced in what the Lord
had said. And while this exposition was being given the minds of as many
as sixty monks were freed from the cankers without grasping.'

 
14370 From: <> 
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:31am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2)

 
  "Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither painful nor pleasant, he
does not comprehend the origin nor the going down nor the satisfaction
nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it as it really is; a
tendency to ignorance is latent in him..."

Greetings group, could someone fill in the main points of the above:
origin, going down, satisfaction, peril, escape.

thanks, Larry

 
14371 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:51am
Subject: RE: [dsg] Refuge and Precepts

 
  Dear Christine,

My view about this may be inadaquate for your self expression, but let me
give an alternative viewpoint from a layperson who seldom goes to the
temple, and hence hardly ever follows the rituals of "going for refuge", or
"taking" the sila from the sangha.

Although I am born a Buddhist (well, isn't most everyone from Thailand?), I
don't think I can say I have taken refuge in the triple gems until recently.
Whenever there is sati, which is caused by having listened to the teachings,
I feel that the sati is the refuge that would have been impossible hadn't
the Buddha taught for 45 years as a samma-sambuddha (and accumulating parami
for such a purpose for over 4 unccountable aeons), impossible hadn't the
sangha strived to retain the teachings in whatever way they can for all
these centuries, and impossible hadn't K. Sujin taught and explained the
Buddha's teachings so tirelessly and exactly for all these years.  I have
done the rituals of going for refuge, and taking the sila, but they had no
meaning until the Buddha's teachings became more accessible which cause
subsequent changes impossible otherwise.

The Buddha accumulated the 10 perfections for over 4 aeons exactly for one
purpose: so that others may follow in his path.  He taught for 45 years also
for that purpose, and the sangha had kept the dhamma also for that purpose.
Whenever I follow the Buddha's teachings (and hence, follow the path), there
is no other higher reverence I can give to the triple gems.

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: christine_forsyth 
> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 3:13 AM
> Subject: [dsg] Refuge and Precepts
>
>
> Hi everyone,
> I am presently reading "Going for Refuge - Taking the Precepts" by
> Bhikkhu Bodhi.  About a year (or so) ago I was interested in this
> topic - mainly because it came up in conversation regularly within a
> meditation group - everyone it seemed had 'gone for Refuge' and
> remembered the date as they would a birthday or baptism.  It seemed
> at the time that some considered it an essential part of becoming a
> lay Buddhist - usually those not born into a Buddhist family or
> society.  Others (those born and bred as Buddhists) were either not
> familiar with the term or experience, or thought it unnecessary.  It
> would seem that Bhikkhu Bodhi also considers it essential. His whole
> booklet is quite inspiring to read.
> I have not ever gone for Refuge, or taken the Precepts, and wonder
> what others think about this possibility?
> Often, I feel almost overwhelmed by reverence and awe at the
> Teachings, and feel the lack of being able to express this in action
> or speech of some sort.  But should these feelings be discouraged?
> Are they a leftover from Theism or a wish for ritual? Are there any
> alternatives?
>
> metta,
> Christine
>
>
> "Going for Refuge
> The Buddha's teaching can be thought of as a kind of building with
> its own distinct foundation, stories, stairs, and roof. Like any
> other building the teaching also has a door, and in order to enter it
> we have to enter through this door. The door of entrance to the
> teaching of the Buddha is the going for refuge to the Triple Gem --
> that is, to the Buddha as the fully enlightened teacher, to the
> Dhamma as the truth taught by him, and to the Sangha as the community
> of his noble disciples. From ancient times to the present the going
> for refuge has functioned as the entranceway to the dispensation of
> the Buddha, giving admission to the rest of the teaching from its
> lowermost story to its top. All those who embrace the Buddha's
> teaching do so by passing through the door of taking refuge, while
> those already committed regularly reaffirm their conviction by making
> the same threefold profession:
>
> Buddham saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Buddha;
> Dhammam saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Dhamma;
>
> Sangham saranam gacchami
> I go for refuge to the Sangha.
>
> As slight and commonplace as this step might seem, especially in
> comparison with the lofty achievements lying beyond, its importance
> should never be underestimated, as it is this act which imparts
> direction and forward momentum to the entire practice of the Buddhist
> path. Since the going for refuge plays such a crucial role it is
> vital that the act be properly understood both in its own nature and
> in its implications for future development along the path. To open up
> the process of going for refuge to the eye of inner understanding, we
> here present an examination of the process in terms of its most
> significant aspects. These will be dealt with under the following
> eight headings: the reasons for taking refuge; the existence of a
> refuge; the identification of the refuge objects; the act of going
> for refuge; the function of going for refuge, methods of going for
> refuge; the corruption and breach of the going for refuge; and the
> similes for the refuges."
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel282.html#ref


 
14372 From: search   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:52am
Subject: Re : [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts

 
  When I practiced zazen, there was a ritual when we entered the dojo. One of
the gesture was sign of respect in front of the statue of the Buddha.

But I remember the words of a monk I meditated with. These words were the
same  as the wors of a "sensei".

When you bow in front of a wooden statue is a kind of "showing outside" the
respect to your own "nature-of-Buddha".

You know that the statue is only wood, only a statue. But it is simply a
symbol of your nature-of-Buddha.

Sorry if I didn't use the right terms in English.

Jean-François

----------
>De : "Ruth Klein" 
>Objet : RE: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts
>Date : Mar 16 juil 2002 14:44
>

> I couldn't agree more!  One of my most frequent doubts is the g-dlike
> reverence (bowing, statues, etc) to Siddhartha Gautama.   I understand,
> intellectually, the significance of a man achieving enlightenment.  And that
> bowing, to someone brought up in an Asian culture, is a gesture of respect,
> and used for all teachers, dignitaries, etc - almost like a Western
> handshake.  (Ok, not quite, but you get the idea... its a cultural thing.)

 
14373 From: frank kuan   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 0:28pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2)

 
  Hi Larry,
 --- <> wrote:
> "Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither
> painful nor pleasant, he
> does not comprehend the origin nor the going down
> nor the satisfaction
> nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it
> as it really is; a
> tendency to ignorance is latent in him..."
> 

origin: the conditional, dependently arisen nature of
feeling, i.e. feeling has causal factors such as
contact, sense organ, extern object, bare
consciousness of object as conditions for its arising.

going down: the impermanent nature of feeling, that
feeling arises, then dissipates, fades away, ceases

satisfaction: what is pleasing and delightful in
feeling

peril: the unsatisfactoriness of craving impermanent
feeling, the insatiability, the inability of feeling
to satisfy or bring lasting happiness

escape from feeling: through detachment,
non-attachment, non-clinging, seeing it's true nature

-fk



 
14374 From: frank kuan   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:02pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts

 
  Hi Chris, Ruth, rest of the gang,

--- Ruth Klein  wrote:
[on ritual, taking refuge]
> I don't know if I will ever 'resolve' these internal
> conflicts; but I need
> to explore them further.
>

  I'm about the last Buddhist to endorse ceremony,
religious paraphernalia, rituals, but as far as I can
tell the Buddhist refuge ceremony is pretty inoccuous.
It's not like you're signing over your soul to the
Buddha, swearing loyalty to a cult, or professing to
have absolute faith in completely unverifiable claims
(Jesus Christ is my lord and savior...)
   The Buddhist refuge and precepts are all pretty
common sensical things that people ought to do on
their own anyway. The Buddha, like the Buddhas before
him and the Buddhas after him only claimed to
rediscover universal truth, the same truth accessible
to all who put forth the effort. 
   In other words, I can take refuge in my house from
harsh weather, take refuge in the U.s. constitution
without feeling blackmailed, and take refuge in the
qualities of one who is awakened, take refuge in the
teachings that lead to awakening, and take refuge in
those who devote their life to propogating these
teachings without feeling like it's worshipping a
deity or joining a cult. In a very real sense, just
seeking truth, trying to know truth directly is
implicitly taking refuge in the triple jewel, whether
we perform a ceremony or not. Taking refuges is really
nothing to feel squeamish about, unless you belong in
a cult-like religion that claims to have a monopoly on
truth and every other religion is wrong. :-)
     
-fk


 


 
14375 From: frank kuan   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 1:18pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2)

 
  Larry, seeing the 5 aspects of feeling (origin,
dissipation, gratification, danger, escape) is a very
prominent theme throughout the pali canon. From
personal experience I can tell you it will definitely
sink in, if due to nothing else except sheer
repetition. Here's one of my favorite passages:

If one feels joy, but knows not feeling's nature,
bent towards greed, he will not find deliverance.
If one feels pain, but knows not feeling's nature,
bent toward hate, he will not find deliverance.
And even neutral feeling which as peaceful
the Lord of Wisdom has proclaimed,
if, in attachment, he should cling to it,
he will not be free from the round of ill.

And having done so, in this very life
will be free from cankers, free from taints.
Mature in knowledge, firm in Dhamma's ways,
when once his life-span ends, his body breaks,
all measure and concept he has transcended. 




 
14376 From: Jaran Jai-nhuknan   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 5:49pm
Subject: "practice"/"practical"/"application" in Nya's Abhidhamma Studies..

 
  Hi all:
I am enjoying my souvenir from Sri Lanka: Many books form PBS. ... and I have a quick question:

I am reading this "Abhidhamma Studies" Preface and Chapter one. I think it's a good book. Both Bhikhu Bodhi and Ven. Nyanaponika Thera clearly differentiate Samatha and Vipassana meditation. One question I have is the words like "practice","practical" and "application" (in Concluding Remarks pp 16-17), do they belong there? 

In my opinion, they do if the word 'practice' and practical' mean observe or being aware of dhamma in daily life, and 'application' means make dhamma relevant to daily life. But I am not sure in what context he means. 

What do you all think?

Jaran



------
Jaran Jai-nhuknan, 
BrukerDaltonics Singapore PTE
77 Science Park Drive, 
#01-01 CINTECH III, Singapore 118256
voice: +(65)6774-7702 ext. 815 
fax: +(65)6774-7703

 
14377 From: Ruth Klein   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 6:41pm
Subject: RE: Re : [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts

 
  Your English is great... however, the Japanese :) ???  What is a sensei?

Ruth

> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 1:53 PM
> Subject: Re : [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts
>
>
> When I practiced zazen, there was a ritual when we entered the
> dojo. One of
> the gesture was sign of respect in front of the statue of the Buddha.
>
> But I remember the words of a monk I meditated with. These words were the
> same  as the wors of a "sensei".
>
> When you bow in front of a wooden statue is a kind of "showing
> outside" the
> respect to your own "nature-of-Buddha".
>
> You know that the statue is only wood, only a statue. But it is simply a
> symbol of your nature-of-Buddha.
>
> Sorry if I didn't use the right terms in English.
>
> Jean-François
>

 
14378 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 6:46pm
Subject: Re: "practice"/"practical"/"application" in Nya's Abhidhamma Studies..

 
  Hi Jaran,


I'm glad you got some great books in Sri Lanka too. :)
For those who do not have the book 'Abhidhamma Studies -  Buddhist 
Explorations of Consciousness and Time' by Venerable Nyanaponika 
Thera, edited and with an introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi,  -  the  
pages 16 and 17 that you mention are excerpted below, with the words 
in question capitalised.

metta,
Christine

"CONCLUDING REMARKS AND A WARNING

Taking a middle path between overrating or underrating the 
Abhidhamma, we might say: The teachings in the Sutta Pitaka with an 
Abhidhamma flavor - that is, those given in precise philosophical 
terminology - are certainly indispensable for the understanding and 
PRACTICE of the Dhamma; and the elaboration of these teachings in the 
Abhidhamma proper may prove very helpful, and in some cases even 
necessary, for both understanding and PRACTICE. As to the codified 
Abhidhamma Pitaka, familiarity with all its details is certainly not 
compulsory; but if it is studied and APPLIED in the way briefly 
indicated in these pages, this will surely nurture a true 
understanding of actuality and aid the work of PRACTICE aimed at 
liberation.  Also, if suitable presented, the Abhidhamma can provide 
those with a philosophical bent a stimulating approach to the Dhamma 
that could prove fruitful, provided they take care to balance 
intellectual understanding with ACTUAL PRACTICE.  Such an approach to 
the Dhamma should certainly not be blocked by the wholesale 
disparagement of Abhidhamma study sometimes found nowadays among 
Buddhists in the West, and even in Asia.  Dangers of one-sided 
emphasis and development lurk not only in Abhidhamma but also in 
other approaches to the Dhamma, and they cannot be entirely avoided 
until a very high level of harmonious integration of the spiritual 
faculties has been attained.
To be sure, without an earnest attempt TO APPLY the Abhidhamma 
teachings in such ways as intimated above, they may easily become a 
rigid system of lifeless concepts.  Like other philosophical systems, 
the Abhidhamma can lead to a dogmatic and superstitious belief in 
words, for example, to the opinion that one really knows something 
about a subject if one is skilled in navigating its conceptual 
system.  The study of the Abhidhamma should therefore not be allowed 
to degenerate into a mere collecting, counting, and arranging of such 
conceptual labels.  This would make of Abhidhamma study - though, of 
course, not of the Abhidhamma itself - just one more among the many 
intellectual "playthings" that serve as an escape from facing 
reality, or as a "respectable excuse" with which to evade the hard 
inner work needed for liberation.  A merely abstract and conceptual 
approach to the Abhidhamma may also lead to that kind of intellectual 
pride that often goes together with specialized knowledge.
If these pitfalls are avoided, there is a good chance that the 
Abhidhamma may again become a living force that stimulates thought 
and aids the meditative endeavour for the mind's liberation, the 
purpose for which the Abhidhamma is really meant.  To achieve this, 
however, the Abhidhamma teachings must be not merely accepted and 
transmitted verbally but carefully examined and contemplated in their 
philosophical and PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS.  These teachings are often 
extremely condensed, and on many points of interest even the 
classical commentaries are silent.  Thus to work out their 
implications will require the devoted effort of searching and 
imaginative minds.  As they will have to work on neglected and 
difficult ground, they should not lack the courage to make initial 
mistakes, which can be rectified by discussion and constant reference 
to the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka."

---  Jaran Jai-nhuknan  wrote:
> Hi all:
> I am enjoying my souvenir from Sri Lanka: Many books form PBS. ... 
and I have a quick question:
> 
> I am reading this "Abhidhamma Studies" Preface and Chapter one. I 
think it's a good book. Both Bhikhu Bodhi and Ven. Nyanaponika Thera 
clearly differentiate Samatha and Vipassana meditation. One question 
I have is the words like "practice","practical" and "application" (in 
Concluding Remarks pp 16-17), do they belong there? 
> 
> In my opinion, they do if the word 'practice' and practical' mean 
observe or being aware of dhamma in daily life, and 'application' 
means make dhamma relevant to daily life. But I am not sure in what 
context he means. 
> 
> What do you all think?
> 
> Jaran

 
14379 From: Jaran Jai-nhuknan   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 7:14pm
Subject: Re: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas

 
  Rob M:

Unfortunately, all materials is till in Thai. There is sooo many of these talks! I will try my best to summarize what she says on this subject!

See you later,
jaran

 
14380 From: Sarah   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 8:19pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts

 
  Dear Kom & Frank,

No one would doubt your respect and appreciation of the Triple Gem here. I
agree with all your sincere comments and understanding of taking ‘refuge’.
Let me just quote the following brief extracts:

 --- Kom Tukovinit  wrote:

> Whenever there is sati, which is caused by having listened to the
> teachings,
> I feel that the sati is the refuge that would have been impossible
> hadn't
> the Buddha taught for 45 years as a samma-sambuddha (and accumulating
> parami
> for such a purpose for over 4 unccountable aeons), impossible hadn't the
> sangha strived to retain the teachings in whatever way they can for all
> these centuries.............
..........
> Whenever I follow the Buddha's teachings (and hence, follow the path),
> there
> is no other higher reverence I can give to the triple gems.

**********
 --- frank kuan  wrote: 

>..... In a very real sense, just
> seeking truth, trying to know truth directly is
> implicitly taking refuge in the triple jewel, whether
> we perform a ceremony or not. 
**********

Anumodana and thank you for sharing with us.

Sarah
=====



 
14381 From: Sarah   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 8:48pm
Subject: 'pretty much given up' ?????

 
  Hey Larry,

 --- <> wrote: > Hi Rob, tadarammana as a linking citta makes
sense to me. I think this
> group has pretty much given up on understanding anything about memory.
---
.....
Now when did this group ‘pretty much’ give up on ‘understanding anything’
on anything??? Did you read all Num's posts on sanna in U.P. for a start?

Goggy proves my point with another neat description here, I think:

goglerr  wrote:  
> I wanna ramble something on 'memory'. As to my understanding, all 
> citta have sanna as their associated cetasika, as well as the other 6 
> universal cetasikas. Each cognitive process (mind or body process) 
> run through very rapidly, that is to say, they arise and passes away 
> very fast. So too, a 'collective of sanna', which are also arising 
> and passing away with the cittas, formed the memory/recognition 
> (memories), appearing as mental images, mental vision and recalling 
> process. Sustaining/recalling those memories (long or short term) are 
> conditioned and strenghten (or weaken) by other associated cetasikas 
> too.   
.**********

Btw, with regard to the account about Maha Tissa you raised, there were no
akusala cittas involved. the vipaka citta was the seeing which just saw
visible object and instead of then seeing the ‘beautiful in the foul’, the
rupas of the body were understood as they truly are as elements which are
unsatisfactory and foul. This last vipallasa (perversion) of seeing the
asubha (foul) as beautiful or pleasant is only finally eradicated by the
arahat.

I enjoyed your reminders about conceit as well and I’m glad to see there
are several others with keen abhidhamma knowledge to help in the ADL
corner and to answer your always challenging questions while we go away
(and probably far more succinctly and accurately too;-)) Even Kom is
around..;-))

Sarah
=====



 
14382 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:32pm
Subject: Re: Jon/ More on Spirals

 
  Howard

I am still some days (weeks?) away from reaching this post of yours in my
own inbox, but thanks to Sarah's daily print-out of new posts I was able
to read it over breakfast this morning.  I thought it deserved to jump the
queue!

=====================
Howard:
This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What is
interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second sutta
of the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality
as above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once
again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the
preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding
qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the
near shore to the far shore."
       This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting,
and is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the
factors affect each other.
=====================

Great sutta quote, Howard, and I do agree with your comments about the
'spiral of conditionality'.  This is perhaps how much of the teachings was
intended to be understood, and your reference brings this out nicely.

I think it also helps to highlight the momentary nature of the individual
factors in the various groups of factors, since they are no longer seen 
as 'stages' to be attained.  That momentary arising occurs because of
multiple conditioning factors that are beyond our perception (apparent
only to a Buddha).

Thanks for the good reminders and the useful sutta reference to keep in
mind.

Jon

 --- Howard wrote: > Hi again, Jon -
> 
>        I just read the first two suttas from the book of tens in the A. 
> Nikaya, and they are quite relevant to what we were discussing (growing
> out 
> of VI, 50). In the first of these, the Buddha puts forth the following
> chain 
> of conditionality:
> 
>        Virtuous ways of conduct
>        ->
>        Non-remorse
>        ->
>        Gladness
>        ->
>        Joy
>        ->
>        Serenity
>        ->
>        Happiness
>        ->
>        Concentration of the mind
>        ->
>        Knowledge and vision of things as they really are
>        ->
>        Revulsion and dispassion
>        ->
>        Knowledge and vision of liberation.
> 
>        This, of course, is quite similar to the content of VI, 50. What
> is 
> interesting to me is the material of the very next sutta, the second
> sutta of 
> the book of tens. It puts forward the very same chain of conditionality
> as 
> above, but, at the end *circling back* to virtuous ways of conduct once 
> again. And then the sutta closes with the following: "Thus, monks, the 
> preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding 
> qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from
> the 
> near shore to the far shore."
>        This is exactly the spiral conditionality that I was suggesting,
> and 
> is, of course, in harmony with both of our understandings that all the 
> factors affect each other.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard



 
14383 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:43pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Role of jhanas in enlightenment

 
  Sukin

I thought your explanation of the links from Howard's sutta was very well
said.  I particularly appreciated the point that the attainment of the
jhanas is no substitute for the development of right understanding.

To digress a little, there seems to be a fairly widely held view that once
the jhanas have been attained, and the hindrances (temporarily)
suppressed, dhammas will suddenly become visible and apparent, or that
understadning will somehow arise more freely.  This to my view ignores
your point that the understanding necessary for discernment of dhammas is
of an entirely different nature to the understanding  that accompanies
samatha, and must be developed in its own right, gradually, by studying
dhammas as and when they appear.

Viewed in this light, the suppression of the hindrances is not the 'key'
to the development of vipassana that some seem to regard it as.

To take a parallel situation in one wishing to develop the jhanas.  We
know that highly developed sila is essential for that attainment.  This
does not mean, however, that sila must be developed to a high degree
first, before there can be any development of samatha.  The development of
samatha can begin regardless of how pure the sila, although obviously the
rate of progress in that development will depend to some degree on how
well the sila develops in parallel with the samatha.

Sorry for the digression, which doesn't really arise from your post.  Just
some random thoughts that happen to more or less coincide with something
in your post!

Jon

PS  The MP3 files work great on the new player (iPod).  Thanks for the
CD's.  I have several weeks of listening in hand right now.  New and
cheaper players with similar functions (i.e., they store the MP3 files
internally and do not need the CD to be physically loaded) are coming onto
the market at a rapid rate.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Dear Howard, Victor and Jon,
... ... ...
In Howard's example below, what I understand is at the moment when there
is sense control ( arisen by conditions), at that moment then there is an
abstinence from breaking a precept. If the accumulations are favourable,
this
would lead to rt. concentration, and again if panna is strong, to the
other parts.
Whether all of this arises in just a flash or successively I am not sure
at all.
However, I see no room that it can be 'trained' to achieve, since panna
has
to be there from the very beginning. If our understanding of sila and
sense
control is weak, I don't think this can lead to rt.concentration. And I
don't think
concentration of the samma kind can be had simply by trying to control
the senses and keeping strict sila. This can be done with little or no
understanding.

Lastly, satipatthana being the one and only way to the understanding of
nama and rupa, even a jhana expert must first have had moments of
satipatthana if he were to understand reality. My personal view is that
jhana is not a tool for the understanding of nama and rupa. Even
jhanacittas
must be seen for what it is, namely anicca, dukkha and anatta.
... ... ...
metta,
Sukin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


 
14384 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:47pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta

 
  Howard

Here's something else we manage to agree on ;-)) :
-----------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       And I believe that you and I, Jon, are hooked on opposite ends of
that very same barb, but both hooked. ;-)) We read the same words, and see
them differently Accumulations!
------------------------------------------------------
Very true indeed.  

However, your earlier comments in the same post have me puzzled.  Just
when I thought I was beginning to get a handle on phenomenalism, you post
something that suggests it is equated with emptiness (or so it seems to
me).  You said:
--------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Yes, indeed, that is the part [Jon:  i.e., the part that supports
the phenomenalist approach]. That part, as I see it, points out the
"emptiness of the experienced", and the rest, not quoted here, points out
he "emptiness of the experiencer".
---------------------------------------------------

I'm afraid I cannot see what the 'emptiness' of the presently arising
matter has to do with the phenomenalist approach, which I had gathered to
be essentially the assertion that only what is being experienced at the
present moment actually exists.  

Since the subject continues to come up, I hope you won't mind my asking
you to make the connection.  Thanks.

Jon


...........................
Hi, Jon -
In a message dated 7/6/02 5:57:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:
> Howard
> 
> You don't say exactly which part of the sutta supports the phenomenalist
> approach, but my guess is that it would be the part that reads:
> 
> "a Tathagata does not conceive of a visible thing as apart from
sight;� .
> He does not conceive of an audible thing as apart from hearing;  � .
He
> does not conceive of a thing to be sensed as apart from sensation;  �
. He
> does not conceive of a cognizable thing as apart from cognition;  � .
> Thus, monks, the Tathagata, being such-like in regard to all phenomena
> seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, is `Such'."
> 
--------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Yes, indeed, that is the part. That part, as I see it, points out
the 
"emptiness of the experienced", and the rest, not quoted here, points out
he 
"emptiness of the experiencer".
---------------------------------------------------
... ... ...
> To me, this sutta is saying, the Buddha *knows about* what is, he
doesn't
> *conceive about* anything.  This I think is made clear by the final
verse
> passage:
> 
> "Whatever is seen, heard, sensed or clung to, is esteemed 
> As truth by other folk.  Midst those who are entrenched 
> In their own views, being `Such' I hold none as true or false. 
> Well in advance [i.e., at the foot of the Bodhi tree], 
> This barb I beheld whereon humans are hooked, impaled. 
> "I know, I see, 'tis verily so" -- no such clinging for the Tathagatas."
------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       And I believe that you and I, Jon, are hooked on opposite ends of
that 
very same barb, but both hooked. ;-)) We read the same words, and see them

differently Accumulations!
------------------------------------------------------


 
14385 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:51pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Syntax Shell For The Fourth Noble Truth

 
  Suan

Many thanks for presenting this translation and for the supporting notes. 
It is interesting to see a translation that follows the grammatical
structure of the original Pali.

I just have one question (below)

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Dear Sarah, Jon, Robert Epstein, and Dhamma Friends

How are you?

The following is my translation of the paragraph that describes the 
fourth noble truth. I tried my best to provide a syntactically 
literal translation of the paragraph while attempting to render it in 
as natural English as possible. You could perform the "Syntax Walk-
through" on the translation.

I hope you find it useful.

"`Idam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasaccan'ti me, 
bhikkhave, pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, 
ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko 
udapaadi. Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
ariyasaccam bhaavetabban'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe …pe… 
udapaadi. `Tam kho panidam dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa 
ariyasaccam bhaavitan'ti me, bhikkhave, pubbe ananussu
tesu dhammesu cakkhum udapaadi, ñaa.nam udapaadi, paññaa
udapaadi, vijjaa udapaadi, aaloko udapaadi.

The above Pali is from Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam, Section 1081, 
Mahavaggo, Samyutta Nikayo, Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3, 
produced by Vipassana research Institute .


THE FOURTH NOBLE TRUTH

Translated By Suan Lu Zaw

Monks, the eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light 
occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that this is the 
noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery. The eye, 
the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and the light occur to me on 
the previously unheard-of realities that, as for contrast, that noble 
truth of the practice bound for cessation of misery should be 
followed through. The eye, the knowing, the wisdom, the insight, and 
the light occur to me on the previously unheard-of realities that, as 
for contrast, that noble truth of the practice bound for cessation of 
misery has been accomplished.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jon:
It's still not easy for the Pali-challenged like me to relate a particular
word back to the original.  Is 'practice bound for cessation of misery' a
translation of ' dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa'?  I am interested in
the term ' pa.tipadaa', whether it is the same word (in different form) as
'pa.tipatti', and what meaning and connotations it carries.  If you have
time to comment on this, I would be very interested to hear.

Thanks again for all your work.

Jon



 
14386 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:56pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: formal sitting and corruptions of insight

 
  Victor

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hi Jon and all,

Hmmm, this thread is not mine anyway.

Questions:
1. What is 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskillful qualities', and 
how is that accomplished?

Answers:
Unskillful qualities are to be understood as passion, aversion, and 
delusion.  They are also to be understood as sensual desire, ill-
will, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and worry, and doubt.  When 
one withdraws from sensuality and unskillful qualities, one abandons 
them.  How is that accomplished?  Please refer this discourse in
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn020.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jon:
I think we are going around in circles here, Victor ;-)).  You refer above
to the abandoning of the hindrances (I think), but in the texts this
normally implies jhana.  This would mean that before sitting down to focus
on the breath (in order to develop Right Concentration), jhana would be
needed first.

Is this how you see it?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Question:
2. What is the difference in the mental state between--
a) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities, and
b) one who is withdrawn from sensuality and unskillful qualities and 
whose mind is focussed on in and out breathing?

For Question 2, Jon, I would suggest to:
Sit in a secluded place with leg crossed and eye closed.  Withdraw 
from sensuality and unskillful qualities.  Focus on in and out 
breathing.  See for yourself, Jon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jon:
In asking this question, I had in mind that a mind that is focussed on the
breath could be either kusala or akusala.  Since the purpose here is the
development of Right Concentration, which obviously arises only with
kusala citta, is it your view that mind with breath as object is more
likely to be kusala than mind without breath as object?  I am not aware of
any basis for that in the texts.  And anyway, how would a person know
whether the citta is kusala or akusala?

Alternatively, if you are postulating a mind that is already kusala --
since you refer to 'withdrawal from sensuality and unskilful qualities' (a
pretty big 'if', I believe) -- then what additional benefit do you see as
following from focussing the mind on breath?

You suggest that rather than seek to understand the theory I should simply
try it and see for myself.  I am not aware of the Buddha ever suggesting
or endorsing this approach.  Indeed, he spent the whole of his life after
enlightenment explaining the why's and wherefore's to those who would
listen (many became enlightened while listening and considering as he
spoke).

Quite apart from the doubts I have about your approach, the state of being
'withdrawn from sensuality and unskilful qualities' doesn't sound like me,
so I don't think I even make it to first base ;-))

Joking aside though, Victor, it is useful to exchange views on these
important areas, and I am grateful for the opportunity to do so with you.

Jon



 
14387 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 9:59pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] formal sitting and corruptions of insight [Sarah]

 
  Rob Ep

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Since you have jumped in on Victor's thread, may I jump in with you? 
Hmmn...the water seems tepid, just the way I like it, neither hot nor
cold.  <g>

Question:  isn't it possible to focus on breathing without having a 'who'
that is focussing?  The consciousness that focusses on breathing can
merely focus it, and then you get a 'breathing-focussed' citta, for
better, worse, or neutral.

Robert Ep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You're welcome.  As long as you don't make too big a splash!

I think your observation here is right on, Rob.  As I said in my post to
Victor just sent, a citta focussed on the breath may be either kusala or
akusala (but not, I think, neutral).  What's to say it's more likely to be
the former than the latter?

Which brings me back to a point we've discussed before on samatha/the
jhanas.  The development of samatha involves the development of kusala
citta to the (eventual) exclusion of akusala.  This development cannot
occur unless there is the highly developed discrimination that knows the
difference between the 2.  I think people tend to assume that the mere
fact of 'taking' as object one of the 40 meditation subjects given in the
Visuddhimagga  will condition the citta to be kusala, or will
significantly increase the chances of it being so.  However, I am not
aware of any basis for this in the texts, and I believe it to be
misconceived.

Any thoughts on this yourself?

Jon



 
14388 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 10:03pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc)

 
  Rob Ep

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I would think that since walking, sitting and lying down are the three
main positions of life, that there would be specialized practices of one
kind or another for practicing mindfulness during these basic phases of
physical living. 
It makes sense to me.

Robert Ep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, if mindfulness was a matter of a particular 'practice to be done',
then I would be inclined to agree with you.  But I happen to believe it's
not, and I see some significance in the fact that there is an absence of
walking-, sitting and lying down-practices in the texts.

To my reading of the texts, the Buddha in fact positively indicates that
there is no distinction to be drawn as to posture, time of day, nature of
activity as far as the development of insight is concerned.  I'm sure you
are already familiar with the passages from the Satipatthana Sutta copied
below, but they bear repeating.

Jon

Satipatthana Sutta
[The Modes of Deportment]
"And further, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going'; when
he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is sitting, he
understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he understands: 'I am
lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he understands it. ..."

[The Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension]
"And further, a bhikkhu, 
-- in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising
clear comprehension; 
-- in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, ... 
-- in bending and in stretching, ... 
-- in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl,
... 
-- in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, ... 
-- in defecating and in urinating, ... 
-- in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in
sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person
practising clear comprehension."



 
14389 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 10:06pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc)

 
  Rob Ep

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Howard
... ... ...
> As Nina commented in her post, 'walking meditation' here is probably a
> translation of the Pali 'cankamana'/'cankamati'.   According to the
> dictionaries, this means simply walking up and down/to walk up and down
> (as given in both PED and CPED).  If cankamana is the original, then the
> 'meditation' part is very much the translator's own gloss.  This is
> perhaps based on the fact that this form of walking often took place on
a
> prepared walkway as relief from periods of seated contemplation (which
the
> translator would no doubt see as 'sitting meditation').

Jon,
Could you tell me the difference between seated contemplation and sitting
meditation?  Those seem pretty similar to me.  

Robert Ep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I didn't intend to draw any particular distinction.  It was more a case of
wanting to avoid using 'meditation', because of the different things it
means to different people.  I've since realised that 'seated
contemplation' probably suffers from the same shortcoming, so I am now
using 'sitting', following Bh Bodhi's translation in 'Numerical Discourses
of the Buddha'.

Jon



 
14390 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:11pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts

 
  Dear Group,
Here is a short sutta from the Dhammapada that I like:
364. Dhammaaraamo dhammarato, dhamma.m anuvicintaya.m;
          dhamma.m anussara.m bhikkhu, saddhammaa na parihaayati.
364. The bhikkhu who abides in the Dhamma, who delights in the 
Dhamma, who meditates on the Dhamma, and is ever mindful of the 
Dhamma, does not fall away from the Dhamma of the virtuous.

 The background  is as follows:

The Buddha annouced that he would attain khandha parinibbana - 
extinction of the five khandhas in 4 months. The monk Dhammarama 
decided to strive and consequently went off by himself "considering, 
pondering and calling to mind the Dhamma" (Burlingame p249).
The other monks wondered why he didn't go to see the Buddha and 
thought he had to affectation for the Buddha. He was brought to the 
Buddha: He told the Buddha that he was striving for arahantship 
and "considering, pondering and calling to mind the Dhamma" p250.
"Good, good! exclaimed the Teacher to the monks, Monks every other 
monk should show his affection for me just as Dhammarama has done. 
For they that honour me with garlands perfumes and the like honour 
me not; but they that practice the higher and lower law they alone 
truly honour me" p250 (This includes the development of samatha and 
vipassana and the bodhipakkhiyadhammaa --  culminating in 
arahantship)
Robert

 
14391 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Wed Jul 17, 2002 11:15pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Refuge and Precepts

 
  --- 
"had to affectation" - should be "have no affection"
 "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
<robert> wrote:
> Dear Group,
> Here is a short sutta from the Dhammapada that I like:
> 364. Dhammaaraamo dhammarato, dhamma.m anuvicintaya.m;
>           dhamma.m anussara.m bhikkhu, saddhammaa na parihaayati.
> 364. The bhikkhu who abides in the Dhamma, who delights in the 
> Dhamma, who meditates on the Dhamma, and is ever mindful of the 
> Dhamma, does not fall away from the Dhamma of the virtuous.
> 
>  The background  is as follows:
> 
> The Buddha annouced that he would attain khandha parinibbana - 
> extinction of the five khandhas in 4 months. The monk Dhammarama 
> decided to strive and consequently went off by 
himself "considering, 
> pondering and calling to mind the Dhamma" (Burlingame p249).
> The other monks wondered why he didn't go to see the Buddha and 
> thought he had to affectation for the Buddha. He was brought to 
the 
> Buddha: He told the Buddha that he was striving for arahantship 
> and "considering, pondering and calling to mind the Dhamma" p250.
> "Good, good! exclaimed the Teacher to the monks, Monks every other 
> monk should show his affection for me just as Dhammarama has done. 
> For they that honour me with garlands perfumes and the like honour 
> me not; but they that practice the higher and lower law they alone 
> truly honour me" p250 (This includes the development of samatha 
and 
> vipassana and the bodhipakkhiyadhammaa --  culminating in 
> arahantship)
> Robert

 
14392 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 0:29am
Subject: RE: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2)

 
  Hi Larry (and Frank),

Adding more to Frank's excellent answer:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: frank kuan [mailto:<>]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 9:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (2)
>
>
> Hi Larry,
>  --- <> wrote:
> > "Being impinged on by a feeling that is neither
> > painful nor pleasant, he
> > does not comprehend the origin nor the going down
> > nor the satisfaction
> > nor the peril of that feeling nor the escape from it
> > as it really is; a
> > tendency to ignorance is latent in him..."
> >
>
> origin: the conditional, dependently arisen nature of
> feeling, i.e. feeling has causal factors such as
> contact, sense organ, extern object, bare
> consciousness of object as conditions for its arising.

Also, attachment (as the cause of all dukha) and avijja (the common cause of
all dukkha).

>
> going down: the impermanent nature of feeling, that
> feeling arises, then dissipates, fades away, ceases
>
> satisfaction: what is pleasing and delightful in
> feeling
>
> peril: the unsatisfactoriness of craving impermanent
> feeling, the insatiability, the inability of feeling
> to satisfy or bring lasting happiness

Also, the impermanence, the dukkha, and the conditioned nature of the
feeling.

>
> escape from feeling: through detachment,
> non-attachment, non-clinging, seeing it's true nature
>

And ultimately, nibbana....

kom

 
14393 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: Tatramajjhattata / 6 pairs of kusala cetasikas, Jaran, Rob M

 
  Dear Jaran and Rob M,
I enjoyed Jaran's rendering of the tape very much. I am very keen also to
have more of this material, thank you Jaran. I do not have the possibility
now to listen to CD Rom with sound. It is beyond me. If you just write an
extract of the essence it is wonderful.
I have been thinking about this:

<TMT is the cetasika that makes you have right thoughts (among many other
functions, discussed later) not to violate the precepts, be kind to
people etc. From the moment one listens to dhamma and begins to
understand the teaching, and what your lives and the world are all
about, TMT is already hard at work directing one to the right thoughts.>

N: The impartiality of TMT is important, when performing dana, or having
genuine kindness: no thought of being kind to this person, not to that,
because everybody is just nama and rupa.  Also for the development of
insight: whatever arises is conditioned, no preference for this reality or
that reality. As Jon stressed so often: also akusala has to be known and it
is not an object that is less worthy than the other objects of awareness and
understanding. 
 
Rob M, It may be a good idea if you indicate each time about what subject
you will be talking next for your group. It gives us the opportunity to
consider this subject also and in this way we can all share, it would be
very useful. 
with appreciation,
Nina. 

op 16-07-2002 16:00 schreef Jaran Jainhuknan op <>:


> 
> Regarding Tatramajjhattata(TMT) and the six pairs of kusala, I'm
> listening to the talks by K.Sujin on Sobhanadhamma (in Thai).
> 




 
14394 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M

 
  Dear Larry, 
I try to answer. 
op 16-07-2002 03:32 schreef <> op <>:
Hi all, is rupa arammana and rupa the same? Does hardness interrupt the
bhavangha stream? What does the 'sensitive matter' (pasadarupa) that
makes up the sense doors do?

L:  is rupa arammana and rupa the same?
N: Rupa is not always an arammana, only when it impinges on the relevant
doorway and is thus experienced by citta.
L: Does hardness interrupt the
> bhavangha stream?
N: The sense-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door
adverting-consciousness follow upon the bhavanga-citta, namely the
arrest-bhhavanga and then the stream is discontinued. There are several
conditions for this to happen, not just the rupa which impinges on a
doorway. That is why I want to be careful and not point to just hardness. We
do not have continuously bhavanga-cittas in our life. We were born to
receive sense impressions, to see, hear, etc. The sense-cognitions are the
results of kamma, but, as you know, before seeing can arise there has to be
the arrest bhavanga and then the sense-door adverting consciousness, which
is not vipaka. But it is the first citta of the sense-door process during
which the result of kamma can be experienced. Here we see the intricacy of
the many conditions which play their part.
L: What does the 'sensitive matter' (pasadarupa) that
> makes up the sense doors do?
N: It is produced by kamma and is a condition for the receiving of the
relevant object. It is rupa, thus, it does not experience anything, but it
is a condition for the experience of rupa.

You discussed about a special function of tadarammana citta as to memory. I
do not think so. In the sensuous planes and with regard to cittas of the
sense sphere, kamma can produce two more moments of vipakacittas, which have
as their only function to experience that sense objects for two more
moments. They do not do anything special, they are more passive. Retention
is a better translation than registering. This shows how much we are
involved with sense objects.

You were discussing with Rob M about ayuhana vinnana. I quote from his post:
<Each of these thought processes create kamma. In other words, we
generate hundreds of millions of bits of kamma each second. This
kammic energy is "accumulated" in the "warehouse of consciousness"
(ayuhana-vinnana) until conditions arise which allow the appropriate
vipaka to ripen. It is my understanding that this ayuhana-vinnana is
the foundation of what we call "memory"
I will not say that I am 100% sure of my interpretation... perhaps
there is an Abhidhamma scholar who can correct me if I am wrong.>


Nina: We read in Vis. XX, 72:

<No store of broken states, no future stock;
Those born balance like seeds on needle points.
Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth;
Those present decay, unmingled with those past.
They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go;
Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky.>

Thus, no store we read here.
When there is such an ayuhana vinnana, how could this agree with
impermanence? We may cling immediately to it as mine. And then there would
be more than one citta at a time. Accumulation takes place each moment: one
citta falls away and conditions the next one, and in this way all
experiences and all kusala, akusala, are accumulated from citta to citta,
from life to life. The force of kamma can propel to a future time and
produce vipaka later on. Also memory; there are conditions for recalling
later on an event of the past, just because each citta is accompanied by
sanna and conditions the following citta.
I would not say that each process creates kamma, is that not too much?
Akusala citta arises, such as some irritation, but that is not kamma
motivating deeds through body, speech and mind.
Best wishes,  Nina.     




 
14395 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:00am
Subject: The Perfections by A. Sujin, Ch 3, no 1.

 
  Perfections Ch 3, no 1

Chapter 3

The Perfection of Morality

The Commentary to ³The Basket of Conduct² defines the perfection of morality
as follows:

 Virtue (síla) has the characteristic of composing (sílana); co-ordinating
(samådhåna) and establishing (patiììhana) are also mentioned as its
characteristic. Its function is to dispel moral depravity, or its function
is blameless conduct; its manifestation is moral purity; shame and moral
dread are its proximate cause.

The transgression of morality, síla, such as killing, stealing, sexual
misconduct, is motivated by akusala: by attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa),
and ignorance (moha). When someone commits evil deeds he lacks mettå, loving
kindness towards others. All akusala kammas are conditioned by clinging to
visible object, sound, smell, flavour, tangible object and the wrong view
that there is self, being or person.
The streamwinner who has realized the four noble Truths and attained the
first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated the defilements in accordance
with that stage of enlightenment. He observes the five precepts perfectly,
he cannot transgress them anymore. If one is not a streamwinner which
precepts can one observe? Even before we are a streamwinner, we should not
transgress the precepts. The coarse defilements can be subdued and worn away
until paññå will be developed to the degree of a perfection and is able to
realize the four noble Truths.
The perfection of síla is an excellent quality that is a supporting
condition for reaching the further shore, namely the eradication of
defilements. We read about  Akitti¹s síla in the Commentary to the ³Basket
of conduct² 1) :

When the Buddha was the ascetic Akitti, he dwellt in a Kåra wood with
strength  and enery to fulfill the ascetic practices (tapa), that is, the
perfection of síla. Síla is indeed called ascetism, because it burns the
impurity of akusala. Evenso the perfection of renunciation and the
perfection of energy are called ascetism (tapa), because they burn by their
strength the impurity of clinging and laziness.

The ten perfections are supporting conditions for each other, also at the
time the Buddha was the ascetic Akitti. He accumulated the perfection of
síla together with the other perfections, such as renunciation and energy.
We read:

At the time he was the ascetic Akitti he built a hermitage beside a great
Kåra tree. When this tree gave fruits he fed on them, and when there were no
fruits he fed on its leaves sprinkled with water. Thus he had time and
opportunity to apply himself to the attainment of jhåna.
The ascetic Akitti searched for Kåra leaves that were sufficient for only
one meal a day, because he found that searching for food for two meals would
not lead to the eradication of defilements.

This is the perfection of patience, because his life was not involved with
the urge  to eat. We read:

His behaviour caused Sakka, the King of the devas, to wonder why the ascetic
Akitti had such pure conduct of action, speech and thought, was devoid of
attachment in his life, and had Kåra leaves as his only food, which were
ascetic practices most difficult to perform.

We should know the aim of our practice, such as the observing of síla,
morality.  People who want to give up attachment to visible object, sound,
odour, flavour and tangible object should know why they are doing this. We
read:

When Sakka saw this, he wondered why the ascetic Akitti observed such
practice. He thought that the ascetic Akitti practised in this way because
he desired to become Sakka, King of the Devas.
Sakka, in the guise of a brahmin, came to see the ascetic Akitti, thinking,
³If the ascetic Akitti wishes to become Sakka, he will give me his sodden
Kåra leaves, but if he has not such a wish, he will not give them away.²

Footnote:
1.See the Akitta Jåtaka, no. 480.

 
14396 From: robmoult   
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 4:35am
Subject: Abhidhamma Class

 
  Hi all,

In a recent posting, Nina wrote, "Rob M, It may be a good idea if 
you indicate each time about what subject you will be talking next 
for your group. It gives us the opportunity to consider this subject 
also and in this way we can all share, it would be very useful."

This is great for me (and the students!).

Here is a bit of background to put things into context.

The Vihara runs a Sunday School. I suspect that there must be close 
to 1000 kids registered, but not all show up each week. Some of the 
parents want to take classes as well on Sunday mornings while their 
kids are occupied. There is a one-year "Introduction to Buddhism" 
course for adults. After the introductory course, many of the adults 
follow this up with Abhidhamma classes the following year. This is 
the path that I took.

For four years, I studied Abhidhamma under Brother Teo. He really 
knows his stuff. In January 2002, I voluntered to be Bro. 
Teo's "apprentice" and take over the first 75 minutes of class. 
After a brief break, Bro. Teo then teaches for 75 minutes followed 
by another brief break and Vipassana mediation led by Bro. Teo.

In his part of the class, Bro. Teo has somebody read a section from 
ADL and then he gives more background information. After seven 
months, we are just now on Chapter 4. For my portion of the class, I 
want to put more focus on the "in daily life" aspect of Abhidhamma. 
I try to focus on "relevance" and "action", leaving the job of 
teaching the more theoretical stuff to Bro. Teo. I am interested in 
the theoretical stuff, but Bro. Teo is better at it than I am.

For the past few months, I have been going through the cetasikas, 
drawing heavily on Nina's book, "Cetasikas". I am finished with the 
akusala cetasikas and am now doing the universal kusala cetasikas. 
Each week, I take one cetasika and start with the definition 
(characteristic, function, manifestation, proximate cause). I then 
summarize the relevant chapter from Nina's book. I then summarize 
practical points from other materials downloaded from the Internet.

For example, I recently talked on Alobha and then summarized Bhikkhu 
Bodhi's book "Dana". Each week, I prepare class notes in bullet form 
(typically one page) which is distributed. I also summarize the 
stuff that I download from the Internet and hand it out as well. 
Bro. Teo reviews all of my material before I distribute it. In the 
past seven months, I have prepared more than 100 pages of handouts. 
I make 75 copies of each handout and they all get used up. By the 
end of 2002, I will have 150 - 200 pages of handouts and I will get 
them printed up as "class notes" for next year.

My objective is to make the subject come alive, relevant in daily 
life, drive people to action. This is where I am hoping to get help 
from this group. I have lots of reference books (I recently picked 
up more than 50 books/booklets on a trip to Colombo). What I am 
looking for are ways of making the material come alive to a non-
academic group of parents.

The class schedule for the next few weeks is as follows:
Jul 21 - Sangdikha Dana (no class)
Jul 28 - Tatramajjhattata / six pairs
Aug 4 - Adosa (Khanti + Metta)
Aug 11 - I will probably be on vacation
Aug 18 - Start the wholesome occasional cetasikas (Vaci-duccarita 
Virati - abstinence from wrong speech )
Aug 25 - Kaya-duccarita Virati (Abstinence from Wrong Action)

I am not sure that I can fill up a full 75 minutes of motivational 
talk on Tatramajjhattata / six pairs on July 28. My "plan B" is to 
bring in a monk for a portion of my time to discuss the process of 
becoming a monk and describe a monk's daily life. Unfortunately, I 
can't use this "get out of jail free card" more than once, so I have 
to make sure that I have a full plate of materials for future 
classes.

Metta is a farily easy topic to make relevant to people's lives, but 
I would be happy to start collecting ideas on how to make the three 
abstinences more interesting.

Thanks,
Rob M :-)

 
14397 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 1:54am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Phenomenalism - The Kalakarama Sutta

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 7/17/02 9:48:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> 
> Howard
> 
> Here's something else we manage to agree on ;-)) :
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        And I believe that you and I, Jon, are hooked on opposite ends of
> that very same barb, but both hooked. ;-)) We read the same words, and see
> them differently Accumulations!
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Very true indeed.  
> 
> However, your earlier comments in the same post have me puzzled.  Just
> when I thought I was beginning to get a handle on phenomenalism, you post
> something that suggests it is equated with emptiness (or so it seems to
> me).  You said:
> --------------------------------------------------
> Howard:
>        Yes, indeed, that is the part [Jon:  i.e., the part that supports
> the phenomenalist approach]. That part, as I see it, points out the
> "emptiness of the experienced", and the rest, not quoted here, points out
> he "emptiness of the experiencer".
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> I'm afraid I cannot see what the 'emptiness' of the presently arising
> matter has to do with the phenomenalist approach, which I had gathered to
> be essentially the assertion that only what is being experienced at the
> present moment actually exists.  
> 
> Since the subject continues to come up, I hope you won't mind my asking
> you to make the connection.  Thanks.
> 
> Jon
> 
===========================
       The phenomenalist relevance to emptiness is only a part of the story. 
It is the sense that in the seen, there is *only* the seen, *merely* the 
seen, i.e., the visual image, and not some "thing out there" which is seen. 
The "experienced" (i.e., the object) is empty from the phenomenalist 
perspective, and I also believe from the Buddhist (especially the 
Abhidhammist) perspective, in the sense that it is not an object in the 
conventional sense existing "out there" independent of being known, but 
rather, exists only in being the object of a citta - that is, its existence 
is interdependent with the knowing of it. This type of dependency is one 
aspect of the  emptiness of the object, the other being its dependence on 
previous conditions. The object, arammana, is dependent on the subject, 
citta, and that dependency, that lack of independent status, is part of the 
"emptiness" of the object. Similarly, the knowing citta is dependent on the 
known aramanna, so that the subject lacks independent status, depending as it 
does on the associated object. Again of course, that is not the only reason 
for the emptiness of the citta - the citta (as well as its object) arises due 
to previous conditions, most especially due to mental formations conditioned 
by avijja.
       There are no trees "out there", there are just mind-constructs that 
*appear* to us as trees out there. But also, there is no hardness, nor 
roughness, nor greenness and brownness, nor trunk-shape, nor leaf-shapes "out 
there". There are just these paramattha-dhamma aramannas arising 
interdependently with cittas, mutually and simultaneously conditioning each 
other by co-occurrence (and also conditioned by previous states), and all 
empty (i.e., lacking independent status, lacking self) due to that 
conditioning. The specific conditionality that is the phenomenalist aspect is 
that all of "this" is an internal stream of arisings, each an interdependent 
vi~n~nana/namarupa (or citta/aramanna) pair.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
14398 From: Howard 
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 2:24am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 16 (1) Larry and Rob M

 
  Hi, Nina (and Larry) -

In a message dated 7/17/02 1:03:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina 
writes:


> L:  is rupa arammana and rupa the same?
> N: Rupa is not always an arammana, only when it impinges on the relevant
> doorway and is thus experienced by citta.
> 
------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       How does one (anyone, including a Buddha) know a rupa that is not the 
object of a citta?
-----------------------------------------------------

> L: Does hardness interrupt the
> > bhavangha stream?
> N: The sense-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door
> adverting-consciousness follow upon the bhavanga-citta, namely the
> arrest-bhhavanga and then the stream is discontinued. There are several
> conditions for this to happen, not just the rupa which impinges on a
> doorway. That is why I want to be careful and not point to just hardness. 
> We
> do not have continuously bhavanga-cittas in our life. We were born to
> receive sense impressions, to see, hear, etc. The sense-cognitions are the
> results of kamma, but, as you know, before seeing can arise there has to be
> the arrest bhavanga and then the sense-door adverting consciousness, which
> is not vipaka. But it is the first citta of the sense-door process during
> which the result of kamma can be experienced. Here we see the intricacy of
> the many conditions which play their part.
> 
--------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       When hardness is not the object of a citta, *where* does it abide? It 
is a rupa, but not always an aramanna. So what is its existential status when 
not an object? Where is it? In the land of Plato's ideals??? ;-))
       My not so subtle point is that I do not buy the idea of rupas existing 
independently of vi~n~nana. One cannot say, for example, that hardness exists 
as a characteristic of some "thing out there" like a table, or a floor, or a 
tree, because these are just concepts. And one also cannot say that hardness 
exists in some disembodied fashion all on its own, in some Platonic heaven. 
It seems to me that one can *only* say that hardness occurs as the objective 
pole of a citta-aramanna event.
=============================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         


 
14399 From: <> 
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2002 8:39am
Subject: ADL ch. 16 (3)

 
  http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm

Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 16 (3)

As regards dhammarammana, the sixth class of arammana, this can again be
subdivided into six classes. 

They are : 

1. The five sense-organs (pasada-rupas) 
2. The sixteen subtle rupas (sukhuma-rupas) 
3. Citta 
4. Cetasika 
5. Nibbana 
6. Conventional terms or concepts (pannatti) 

The first class of dhammarammana comprises the five sense-organs
(pasada-rupas) ; they are the rupas which have the capacity to receive
sense-impressions. The pasada-rupas do not experience anything, they are
rupa, not nama; they can be the doors through which cittas experience
objects. The pasada-rupas cannot be known through the sense-doors; they
can only be known through the mind-door. For example, we cannot
experience eye-sense through the eyes; we know that there is eye-sense,
because there is seeing. 

As regards the 'subtle rupas' (sukhuma-rupas), there are sixteen kinds
of subtle rupa. Altogether there are twenty-eight kinds of rupa of which
twelve are classified as 'gross' (olarika) and sixteen as subtle
(sukhuma). . 

The gross rupas include the seven objects which can be directly
experienced through the five sense-doors: four rupas though the four
sense-doors of eyes, ears, nose and tongue respectively, and the three
rupas of solidity, temperature and motion through the body-door.
Furthermore there are the gross rupas which are the five senses
(pasada-rupas), the rupas which can be the doors through which these
objects are experienced. The five pasada-rupas are classified as the
first class of dhammarammana. 

The sixteen kinds of subtle rupa can be experienced only through the
mind-door. Among them are, for example, 'nutritive essence' (oja),
vaci-vinnatti, the rupa which is the physical condition for speech, and
kaya-vinnatti, the rupa which is the physical condition for expression
through gestures (bodily expression). 

It depends on the accumulated panna whether the true nature of subtle
rupas can be experienced or not. When one thinks about one of the subtle
rupas it does not mean that there is panna which directly experiences
its characteristic, as only a kind of rupa, not self. 

Citta is another class of dhammarammana; cittas experience different
arammanas, but citta itself can be arammana as well. Citta can have
kusala cittas, akusala cittas and many other types of citta as its
object. 

The class of dhammarammana which is cetasika comprises all fifty-two
cetasikas. Feeling is a cetasika. Painful feeling, for example, can be
known by citta; then the object of citta is dhammarammana. When one
experiences hardness the object is not dhammarammana but
phothabbarammana (tangible object). Hardness and painful bodily feeling
can appear closely one after the other. If one does not realize that
hardness and painful bodily feeling are different arammanas and if one
is ignorant of the different characteristics of nama and rupa, one will
continue taking them for self. 

Citta can experience all kinds of objects. Even nibbana can be
experienced by citta. Nibbana is dhammarammana, it can only be
experienced through the mind-door. Thus, citta can experience both
sankhara dhammas (conditioned dhammas) and visankhara dhamma
(unconditioned dhamma). The citta which experiences sankhara dhamma is
lokiya citta (lokiya is usually translated as 'mundane', but it does not
mean 'worldly' as it is understood in conventional language). The citta
which directly experiences nibbana is lokuttara citta. 

Another class of dhammarammana is conventional terms, concepts and ideas
(pannatti). Thus we see that citta can know both paramattha dhammas,
which are nama and rupa, and concepts or conventional terms, which are
not paramattha dhammas. 

A concept or a conventional term citta thinks of is not a paramattha
dhamma. We can think of a person, an animal or a thing because of
remembrance of past experiences, but they are not paramattha dhammas,
realities which can be directly experienced. When there is thinking
about a conventional term or a concept, it is nama which thinks; nama is
a paramattha dhamma. Thus, the reality at that moment is the thinking. 

Conventional terms can denote both realities and things which are not
real. A term which in itself is not a paramattha dhamma, can denote a
paramattha dhamma. For instance, the terms 'nama' and 'rupa' are
pannatti, but they denote paramattha dhammas. It is essential to know
the difference between paramattha dhamma and pannatti. If we cling to
the terms 'nama' and 'rupa' and continue thinking about nama and rupa
instead of being aware of their characteristics when they appear, we
will only know pannattis instead of realities.