14600 From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:07am Subject: A House Blessing for Ken & Visakha Kawasaki July 28, 2002 Dear Friends, On July 28, Buddhist Relief Mission, Burmese Relief Center--USA, Dr. Kyaw Thet Oo, Zune Mae Ngae, their children, Ken and I celebrated moving into our *new* home at 1401 Woodlawn Park Drive, Flint, MI 48503. That day, we served lunch to eight monks, from Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Burma, Laos, Bangladesh, and India. Afterwards the monks gave us the precepts and chanted Paritta in Pali with many accents. To family, friends and neighbors those who joined us for this joyous occasion and to those who sent messages of good wishes, thank you. Although he was not able to be present, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi sent us a beautiful message for the occasion, which we would like to share. His words are a rich blessing and a challenge, richly blessing us in our new home and inspiring us to make greater efforts to live the lay Buddhist life he has so eloquently described. With metta, Visakha and Ken A House Blessing for Ken & Visakha Kawasaki July 28, 2002 Preamble A couple united by love of the Dhamma Whose gaze falls fondly on the Blessed One’s face; Who are earnestly devoted to study and practice And heedfully attend to the needs of the Sangha; Who focus their eyes on the ultimate goal, Yet expand their hearts to embrace the whole world; Whose minds try to fathom the abstruse truths While they take delight in deeds of compassion; Who diligently accumulate the double requisites Of wise understanding and virtuous conduct; Whose merits cause the devas and nagas to rejoice As they seek to sustain the Teaching’s life-blood: Surely the radiance of the sublime Triple Gem, The unsurpassed refuge from suffering for the world, Will enfold in an aura of protective grace The house into which you have recently moved. Blessing May the clouds of the Blessed One’s spiritual powers, His unrivalled knowledge and boundless compassion, Pour down upon your house like a monsoon rain, Nurturing the roots of your wholesome qualities. May the Dhamma as doctrine, path, and fruition, As Nibbana the Deathless, the state beyond sorrow, Infuse your home with the glory of truth And make it an oasis for thirsty seekers. May the wavelike blessings of the Sangha-jewel, From Sariputta and Moggala to the present-day Order, Dispel all threats from the forces of darkness And envelop your home with the aura of purity. May the three discourses of protective might ­ The Metta, Ratana, and Mangala Suttas ­ Resound like a chorus of celestial angels, Bringing you success in all you undertake. May the Dhamma-protectors in all ten directions, The gods in the heavens and the nagas of the earth, Ward off all dangers, misfortunes, and hazards, And ensure you live happily in your new abode. May you dwell at home like monks in the forest, Delighting in meditation, devoted to good works. May your home shine brightly like a heavenly palace, A beacon of Dhamma giving solace to all beings. BHAVATU SABBAMANGALAM! Composed by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Please visit our newly established websites! Buddhist Relief Mission Burmese Relief Center--USA Relief Notes 2002 14601 From: azita gill Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Andrew, and also Ken H, other Noosa-weekend friends, > and All > > Andrew, thanks for ‘coming out’ and for your kind > words about last > weekend. I must say Noosa was extremely pleasant, > and I very much enjoyed Dear Jon, Sarah, Chris and all the lovely others, < I also enjoyed it very much, Jon. I have sat on that beach many times in the past but never had the discussions on Dhamma before. Very much appreciated that you and Sarah came over to Oz. < It was much cooler than Cairns but did manage a couple of icy dips in the clear-as Pacific. < It was fun to bring out my old photos of 20 something years ago of our Bangkok days. I left Noosa to return home with a feeling of 'fullness' and not because I ate too much. Lots of lobha for such a weekend, and hopefully, more wisdom. < Here is a quote from the now deceased Ven. Dhammadharo, dated 2519 BE. < 'If its not complacency that overwhelms us, its a kind of despair, a hopless feeling that we will never know the truth. When we are in the grip of this despair it seems we want to be Sotapannas first and free fromall wrong view and doubt at least, then settle down to beginning to be aware of different kinds of nama and rupa! < Why not face up to the reality of akusula? How else can we ever Know it but by being aware of it when it appears and learning to be detached from it? Be patient, be strong, be aware! Is it nama or is it rupa? Because it certainly ISN'T anything else....' > May all beings be happy, < Azita. > 14602 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:34am Subject: Samatha and Vipassana Dear Group, This is an old letter I wrote to a friend: For myself although I sound like I give vipassana priority - and, at least in theory, do - I can't avoid having samatha. I find maranasati(mindfulness of death) can go hand in hand with vipassana . It is not an essential but it leans the mind in the direction of impermanence and gives urgency, it has been like my best friend over many years. Also all vipassana afficionados must develop Dhammanusati to some degree as this IS an essential prequisite. Khun Sujin has written a book about Metta- (a type of samatha and also a perfection). There are others that we can do too. What seems to be the most common object peolple choose these days is anapanasati, the most difficult of all objects, according to the texts. This object does need special conditions - erect back, fixed posture, quiet, much application etc.; thus when on dsg we talk about vipassana in daily life it perhaps seems so different from what people are used to thinking of as bhavana(meditation). Yet many other types of samatha can be developed in daily life in any posture- (true though that more strigent conditions are needed if one wants to take them to the most advanced levels) Knowing that akusala- that desire or aversion etc are objects for awareness, that they are simply paramattha dhamma - if that understanding is firm - means that one can't be frightened by any of them. How can one feel bad - knowing that bad feeling is an object for vipassaan (of course I feel bad sometimes but these are times that I try to cherish as opportunities to understand that feeling or dosa or the conditions for dosa) In Buddhism "even the bad times feel good". They, unpleasant feelings etc., appear more as they really are. Knowing that- as the texts say- dhammas are changing so fast, one knows that even if one is in great fear ,for example, that fear is simply a conditioned dhamma and can't last even for an instant. It is because of nicca vippalasa- the perversion of permanence, that thinks it(the hindrance ) lasts, and so one is distracted by it and believes it has to be got rid of before insight can arise. Yet it has already gone even before one knows it is there - and then one is attached to a perception of it. Not realising that new conditions are creating new fear. This is what avijja(ignorance) does - clouds seeing these things. And one knows too that there are different processes such as seeing occuring that can't come with unpleasant feeling. These things can be seen for oneself - and so the teachings are being gradually tested and their truths seen. In fact, if understanding grows there are less opportunities for some types of akusala - because if there is insight into the hindrances then the conditions that create the hindrances are also being understood - at different levels. And this leads gradually to a turning away from those conditions (by panna, wisdom, not by self effort). Especially, though, insight is eliminating the idea of permanance and self and control. This is the first stage - that of the sotapanna. It is in later stages that craving for sense pleasures is eradicated. The sotapanna has all the hindrances except for doubt. This makes us realise that it is wrongview that is the real danger. I think we can spend much energy trying to stop the hindrances - and they will always come back . Understanding them is another way. However, we can't just expect this type of understanding to pop up out of the blue. There does have to be much consideration of the khandas and ayatanas and dhatus and other sublime teachings- and this is contemplation is all classified under Dhammnusati, one of the forty objects. It can be done at any time and so may not look like samatha but it is (with the proviso that one in this case is not aiming for high levels of samadhi but rather looking for understanding). Khun sujin is very helpful on explaining about seeing the present moment. She said that one can have subtle craving for kusala and that shifts one away from the present: "" if one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."endquote Nevertheless Khun Sujin does admit that satipatthana is not always going to occur. She often speaks about other ways of kusala. She writes in Deeds of merit "This is another level of kusala besides the levels of daana, generosity, and siila, morality. S. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of subduing defilements. W. : What are these four meditation subjects? S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of repulsiveness and mindfulness of death. S. : The recitation we do every night before going to sleep is the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a meritorious action of the level of siila, because it is kusala performed through body and speech. But for kusala citta with calm of the level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely recite words, but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder over the excellent qualities of the Buddha." endquote She then explains a little more about Buddhanusati. I heard on a tape recently someone asking her why she places most stress on satipatthana and anatta. Basically she said that for those who have the accumulations to understand these that this is the rarest teaching. When I heard and knew that any paramattha dhamma can be an object for insight I was elated (not discouraged). It took alot of stress away. Before that I had to be so careful to arrange my life in certain ways so as not to upset calm. Had to avoid confrontations and many other things (and still could never get things quite right.) I couldn't see how much clinging there was to what I took to be 'practice', it was actually increasing the spin of dependent origination even though I hoped and believed it to be doing the opposite. I still like to get away to quiet places and have more time to study and consider Dhamma; but now there is not the pressure of thinking I must be in such situations. It seems more natural now - a more relaxed life. That is a side effect only: what is more important is that now there are countless opportunities for awareness during each day. Instead of trying to avoid being 'distracted', the 'distraction' is the object . Robert 14603 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) --- Dear Azita, Sounds like a great weekend! What a excellent quote from Venerable Dhammadharo, please more! Robert > --- > < Here is a quote from the now deceased Ven. > Dhammadharo, dated 2519 BE. > < 'If its not complacency that overwhelms us, its a > kind of despair, a hopless feeling that we will never > know the truth. When we are in the grip of this > despair it seems we want to be Sotapannas first and > free from all wrong view and doubt at least, then > settle down to beginning to be aware of different > kinds of nama and rupa! > < Why not face up to the reality of akusula? How > else can we ever Know it but by being aware of it when > it appears and learning to be detached from it? Be > patient, be strong, be aware! Is it nama or is it > rupa? Because it certainly ISN'T anything else....' > > May all beings be happy, > < Azita. > > 14604 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:51am Subject: Re: More photos Dear Kom, Thanks for the photos. I just put one up - but it will be staying for a few hours only. Don't want everyone to wonder about my real reason for living in Japan. Robert--- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hello All, > > There are more picturesque post card pictures from down under posted in the > photo section. > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > And please always remember, among DSGers, there are no answers or questions > left uncontested, there are no photos left unposted... Please consider > this a warning. ;-) > > kom > > > 14605 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:06am Subject: RE: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 3 Num (and Nina and Kom), I feel exactly the same as Kom. Great stuff, but I need time to absorb. I hope to be able to contribute to the discussion later. Thanks a lot. Jon --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Num, > > Thanks for the posts on PTSM series. I am absolutely thrilled about > them. Will study along, although probably not at the same pace. > > Will post on this topics later. > > With appreciation, > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Num [mailto:Num] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 4:49 PM > > > Subject: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 3 > > > > > > Path of Discrimination / Patisambhidamagga #3 > > > > Dear Nina and all. > > > > Let me first say happy asalahapuja day, the day that the Buddha > > gave out his first teaching, dhammacakkapavattana sutta. > > > > I am still figuring out how best to report the PTSM session. At > > this point, I will put in the matika and then brief the > > atthakatha and stress on the part that I think it’s crucial. I > > just got my computer back, so this PTSM summary will be somewhat long. > > > > Book #1 is matika and its commentary. There are 73 different > > levels of n~ana. This part is dealing with each n~ana’s > > definition and its tipitaka references. A.Supee and A.Sujin > > stressed that each (ariyan) person has different accumulation and > > it’s not necessary that he/she attained all n~ana. Ven.Sariputta > > explained this sutta in explicit detail to cover all possible > > n~ana. For example there are 6 n~anas that can be attained only > > by the Buddha. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --------------------- > > > > Mahavagga, matika and atthakathan~a_n.akathamatika. > > > > 1) Sutamayan~a_n.a (suta: listening, maya: attain, success, nana: > > knowledge) > > Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is > sutamayan~ana. > > Atthakatah: Knowledge attained through listening > > (sutamayan~a_n.a). Suta here refers to teaching of the Buddha. > > Knowledge attained by listening to the teaching is sutamayan~ana. > > It can also refer associated dhamma of listening for example > > phassa. Knowledge in associated dhamma of listening is > > sutamayan~ana. Then the commentary gives the definition of > > knowledge (n~ana). > > < > unfaltering penetration as its characteristic, like the > > penetration of an arrow by a skillful archer. Illumination of the > > object as its function, as it were a lamp. Non-confusion as its > > manifestation, as it were a hunter gives guidance to one who is > > getting in the forest. And samadhi as its proximate cause.>> > > A.Sujin stressed on the importance of listening and the knowledge > > at the listening level. > > > > 2) Silamayan~ana > > Matika: Knowledge in listening to dhamma and then restrain is > > silaman~ana. > > Atthakatha: Knowledge attained through restrain. (silamayan~ana). > > Sangvara (restraint) factors: pat.imokkha, sati, n~ana, khanti, > > and viriya. There are many kinds and level of sila, but all > > silas has restrain as there characteristic. Getting rid of one > > who is unrestrained, or having no adverse effect as its function. > > Cleanness as its manifestation, and having shame (hiri) and fear > > of blame (ottappa) as its proximate cause. Knowledge which > > accompanies (sampayutta) by sila is silamayan~ana. Reflecting on > > adverse effects of unrestraint, reflecting on benefit of > > restraint, reflecting on purity of restraint, and reflecting the > > cleanness attained from restraint are parts of silamayan~ana. > > > > 3) Samadhibhavanamayan~na > > Matika: Knowledge in restraint and then concentrate is > bhavanamayan~ana. > > Atthakatha: Samadhibhavanamayan~na. Knowledge of the one who > > contains in restraint and precepts (sila), then focus on single > > point with the ability of upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi, > > knowledge in samadhicitta, or associated with samadhicitta. > > > > 4) Dhammat.hitin~ana (thiti:sustain) > > Matika: Knowledge in discernment of conditions is dhammathitinana. > > Atthakatha: Synonym of this nana is paccayapariggaye panna. Thiti > > means sustain. Dhamma here means all sankharadhamma, dhatu, > > sabhava: kusaladhamma, akusaladhamma and abayakatadhamma. Dhamma > > or dhatu or paccayupannadhamma called dhamma because it is being > > arisen sustained by its conditions. Knowing by discernment of > > each dhamma’s conditions, is dhammathitinana. ( atthakatha then > > says dhammathitinana is equal to namarupaparichedanana plus > > paccayapariggayanana in 16 nanas. > > The atthakatha then stresses on the importance of listening > > to the Buddha teaching. It mentions “no being” (nissattata). > > There is dhamma that exists very briefly, then changes and gone > (vikara). > > The atthakatha then raises the point why this nana is not > > being called samatha-paccayapariyanana (knowledge in discernment > > of conditions by one-pointed mind). The atthakatha says because > > samatha and vipassana are paired dhammas (yuganaddhadhamma). It > > can be said that when one sees clearly (vipassana), one’s mind is > > one-pointed, or when one’s mind is one-pointed, he/she sees > > clearly. The atthakatha then continues with “as long as magga > > dose not let go of samadhi (upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi) and > > make samadhi and vipassana as a dhamma in pair, one needs to keep > > on trying.” > > > > << A.Supee pointed out that samatha/samadhi in 8 > > magga-factor refers to 3 magga factors: sammasati, sammavayama, > > and sammasamadhi (samathisikkha). Vipassana in 8 magga-factor > > refers to sammasankappa, and sammadithti (pannasikkha). I also > > asked him a question why the tipitaka here put nana is stepwise > > manner: suta-, sila, samadhibhavana, and the dhammathitinana, is > > it a stepwise instruction? He said this manner of expounding is > > an explicit manner. It means to cover every different > > accumulation, or person. Every patisambhida person (refer only to > > the ariyan person) has different accumulation. One may attain > > both jhana and vipassana, one may attain vipassana without > > attaining nana ( samatha/samadhi and vipassana is a pairing > > dhamma, not jhana and vipassana). Ven.Sariputta covered them all > > in his teaching. >> > > > > Best wishes. > > > > Num 14606 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:56am Subject: Re: Hello message --- Nice to see you Andrew. Ken is a real encouragement to me personally (Jon, sarah, and Chris do their bit too). But tell me is he really 7 feet tall - as his photo seems to indicate? Robert Andrew wrote: > Hello everyone > I think I am Ken H's "lurking" friend. Well, as you can see, I lurk no > more. 14607 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha and Vipassana Very nice, Robert. Thanks for sharing those good thoughts. Robert Ep. ===== --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Group, > This is an old letter I wrote to a friend: > > For myself although I sound like I give vipassana priority - > and, at least in theory, do - I can't avoid having samatha. I > find maranasati(mindfulness of > death) can go hand in hand with vipassana . It is not an > essential but it leans the mind in the direction of impermanence > and gives urgency, it has been like my best friend over many > years. > Also all vipassana afficionados must develop Dhammanusati to > some degree as this IS an essential prequisite. > Khun Sujin has written a book about Metta- (a type of samatha > and also a perfection). There are others that we can do too. > > What seems to be the most common object peolple choose these > days is anapanasati, the most difficult of all objects, > according to the texts. This object does need special conditions > - erect back, fixed posture, quiet, much application etc.; thus > when on dsg we talk about vipassana in daily life it perhaps > seems so different from what people are used to thinking of as > bhavana(meditation). Yet many other types of samatha > can be developed in daily life in any posture- (true though > that more strigent conditions are needed if one wants to take > them to the most advanced levels) > > > > > Knowing that akusala- that desire or aversion etc are objects > for awareness, that they are simply paramattha dhamma - if that > understanding is firm - means that one can't be frightened by > any of them. How can one feel bad - knowing that > bad feeling is an object for vipassaan (of course I feel bad > sometimes but these are times that I try to cherish as > opportunities to understand that feeling or dosa or the > conditions for dosa) In Buddhism "even the bad times feel good". > They, unpleasant feelings etc., appear more as they really are. > Knowing that- > as the texts say- dhammas are changing so fast, one knows that > even if one is in great fear ,for example, that fear is simply a > conditioned dhamma and can't last even for an instant. It is > because of nicca vippalasa- the perversion of permanence, that thinks > it(the hindrance ) lasts, and so one is distracted by it and > believes it has to be got rid of before insight can arise. Yet > it has already gone even before one knows it is there - and then > one is attached to a perception of it. Not realising that new > conditions are creating new fear. This is what avijja(ignorance) > does - clouds seeing these things. And one knows too that there > are different processes such as seeing occuring that can't come > with unpleasant feeling. These things can be seen for oneself - > and so the teachings are being gradually tested and their truths > seen. > In fact, if understanding grows there are less opportunities for > some types of akusala - because if there is insight into the > hindrances then the conditions that create the hindrances are > also being understood - at different levels. And this leads > gradually to a turning away from those conditions (by panna, wisdom, > not by self effort). > Especially, though, insight is eliminating the idea of > permanance and self and control. This is the first stage - that > of the sotapanna. It is in later stages that craving for sense > pleasures is eradicated. The sotapanna has all the hindrances > except for doubt. This makes us realise that it is wrongview > that is the real danger. I think we can spend much energy trying > to stop the hindrances - and they will always come back . > Understanding them is another way. > > However, we can't just expect this type of understanding to pop > up out of the blue. There does have to be much consideration of > the khandas and ayatanas and dhatus and other sublime teachings- > and this is contemplation is all classified under Dhammnusati, > one of the forty objects. It can be done at any time and so may > not look like samatha but it is (with the proviso that one in > this case is not aiming for high levels of samadhi but rather > looking for understanding). > > Khun sujin is very helpful on explaining about seeing the > present moment. She said that one can have subtle craving for > kusala and that shifts one away from the present: > > "" if one > thinks that one should rather have objects other than the > present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will > never study the object which appears now. And how can one know > their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? > So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is > more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire > can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's > desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no > understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One > has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha > which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is > lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one > does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from > developing right understanding of the present object."endquote > > > Nevertheless Khun Sujin does admit that satipatthana is not > always going to occur. She often speaks about other ways of > kusala. She writes in Deeds of merit "This is another level of > kusala besides the levels of daana, generosity, and siila, > morality. > > S. : The monks are accustomed to practise continuously, for a > long time, four meditation subjects of samatha, in order to have > calm of citta and to subdue defilements which can disturb them. > Laypeople can also practise these four meditation subjects. The > Dhamma and the Vinaya which the monks practise can also be > applied by layfollowers in their own situation, as a means of > subduing defilements. > > W. : What are these four meditation subjects? > > S. : Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the > development of mettaa (loving kindness), perception of > repulsiveness and mindfulness of death. > > > S. : The recitation we do every night before going to sleep is > the paying of respect to the Buddha. This is a meritorious > action of the level of siila, because it is kusala performed > through body and speech. But for kusala citta with calm of the > level of samatha it is not sufficient to merely recite words, > but it is also necessary to recollect, to ponder over the > excellent qualities of the Buddha." endquote > She then explains a little more about Buddhanusati. > > I heard on a tape recently someone asking her why she places > most stress on satipatthana and anatta. Basically she said that > for those who have the accumulations to understand these that > this is the rarest teaching. > > When I heard and knew that any paramattha dhamma can be an > object for insight I was elated (not discouraged). It took alot > of stress away. Before that I had to be so careful to arrange my > life in certain ways so as not to upset calm. Had to avoid > confrontations and many other things (and still could never get > things quite right.) I couldn't see how much clinging there was to > what I took to be 'practice', it was actually increasing the spin of > dependent origination even though I hoped and believed it to be > doing the opposite. > I still like to get away to quiet places > and have more time to study and consider Dhamma; but now there > is not the pressure of thinking I must be in such situations. It > seems more natural now - a more relaxed life. That is a side effect > only: what is more important is that now there are countless > opportunities for awareness during each day. Instead of trying to > avoid being 'distracted', the 'distraction' is the object . > Robert > 14608 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: back from the 'Spirit of Friendship Global Tour'....;-) Dear Christine, This is incredibly funny. As always, you have a great gift for comedy. Yours in Dhamma and Humour, Robert Ep. === --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Unfair! My occasional inability to decipher road signs correctly is > acknowledged, (though I'm sure I was just agreeing with Jon), and I'm > grateful to Azita for being 'extremely assertive' about what that > picture of the Plane and the Arrow really meant on the sign. (Jon I > don't think it meant 'this lane closed') > And, Sarah, I'm sure you promised not to tell anyone about my being > marooned behind mountains of ever multiplying bubbles in the spa > with the switch that wouldn't shut off. I did have a contingency plan > of shovelling most of it into the wash basin, shower and down the > toilet if the worst came to the worst. Andrew - forget about the > Akusala Off Switch - there are more probable and important switches > to concentrate on! Thank you SarahF for your technological expertise > in eventually jiggling the switch into working, though the twenty > minute delay and the exasperated sighs were not really > necessary..... :) > And I 'may' have promised not to tell about certain Moderators who > prepared a hot bath before going down for a quick freezing > swim....then dashed upstairs to warm up, wearing only their swimmers, > caps, and goggles, and found themselves locked out and dripping on > the hall carpet when the door card wouldn't work.. Now when the > Receptionist wanted you to bring the defective card to the main hotel > Lobby and wait while they processed a new one..... did you use this > chance to practice khanti and metta? Disappointingly, I don't think > so! ...... you certainly said 'something' that made the staff member > bring a new card in seconds ...... I don't think it began with 'May > the blessings of the Triple Gem .....' > And as for those stories about the Yoga teacher, you assured me he > had said "if you get your legs tired the rest of the body and mind > will sleep well".... I now think that was just a devious trick by > KenH and you to keep me walking for 2 1/2 hours uphill in soft > sand. :) > > Fortunately the Dhamma discussions, both 'sitting still' and 'on the > move' were great, and the wonderful companions couldn't be improved > upon. Now Sundhara......about those Austrian/Dutch backpackers you > turned up with...... Oh well, Maybe we'll be a condition for them > being attracted to Dhamma in their next life ....:) > > I'm ignoring all references to Sri Lanka, The Bag, and the Item - I > prefer to think of the Item as a 'stowaway', not as 'borrowed'. > > It'll be four months or so before we all meet again Sarah - in > Bangkok at the end of November if all goes to plan..... Does it > ever? ....Hopefully we'll meet a few of those Dhamma friends we've > missed up until now. :) > > metta, > Chris > > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Dear Christine (and All), > > > > (I hope to get back to 'proper posts' and to hear other Noosa > friends' > > wise reflections after this little indulgence of post traumatic > > touch-down;-)) > > ***** > > You kindly asked me to tell you --"when you've caught your > breath" - > - how > > we nearly missed our flight....I think I'd better not wait for > the > > breath-catching as I'll have long since forgotten by then;-) > > > > It's true that you and Azita guided us with few hitches to the > airport and > > as you'd fortunately already announced on DSG that your sense > of > direction > > and sign-reading was not to be trusted, Jon --well, he is a lawyer > > --already knew to get second opinions -- otherwise this could have > been > > posted from an internet cafe in Cairns.... It's also true that > even > though > > Quantas' check-in staff have obviously never heard about the > Jonh > Travolta > > ` International superstar and Quantas Ambassador-at-Large > ...Spirit > of > > Friendship global tour' and did their best to put a spanner in > the > works > > in all the khanti and metta (patience and friendliness) > accumulated -- and > > so easily discussed on golden beaches with dhamma friends --, they > > couldn't be entirely blamed, even if it was as a result of > their > computer > > breakdowns that we were held up at immigration, helping to do their > job > > for them. > > > > Now the real chink in the `Spirit of Friendship' occurred > at the GST > > reclaim desk on `the other side'. When we'd been > encouraged to > purchase 3 > > pairs of shoes in Bondi, we'd been assured that all we'd > need to do > would > > be to wave our receipt and they'd be overjoyed at the GST > airport > desk to > > hand over enough tax refund dollars to reimburse us for the airport > > breakfasts. The GST reclaim goodwill ambassadors didn't quite > see > it like > > that and needed more evidence of purchases and a revision course on > their > > books of rules. When they were told that one pair were in the post > between > > Melbourne and Hong Kong, one pair was at the bottom of my bag under > all > > the laundry (I was always taught to pack shoes first) and the third > pair > > were the now scratched and sandy clogs on my feet, any semblance of > > remaining goodwill was lost. Still, a GST refund on two pairs out > of > > three (paying for half the breakfasts anyway) did end up back in my > pocket > > eventually. > > > > Meanwhile, I may have taken the khanti parami (patience perfection) > > reminders a little too far, waiting for the painfully slow process > to > > unfold, because by the time I reached the boarding gate (Jon had > wisely > > gone ahead and left me to sort out the GST mess), I had to thank > the next > > Quantas ambassador for a little lecture on how he would have > definitely > > shut me out without compuction if Jon hadn't begged for mercy, > (especially > > as I had no checked in luggage) and how this would have led to a > > non-refunded ticket at a cost of really a lot more breakfasts than > I care > > to think about. I tried suggesting to him that he might like to > > coordinate with his `friends' at GST and Quantas Check-in, > but he > assured > > me they were certainly not his friends, so there we have it -- a > breakdown > > in the Quantas' Spirit of Friendship. > > > > Anyway, we were appreciated when we got on the plane with a smile > and `So, > > you must be the Abbotts'. We listened for the third time to > John T's > > `Quantas is the best and safest' and came to appreciate his > words > when we > > left Sunny Queensland's blue skies and sandy beaches and got > close > to > > arrival in Hong Kong. We were told by the pilot that there were > heavy > > storms, it would certainly be bumpy, a few flights had missed the > runway > > and so we'd be circling around for `a bit' as > they'd only just re- > opened > > the runways (read: one hour, which could have been spent developing > more > > khanti with my GST friends), before landing in zero visibility. As > we > > bumped around with appropriate noise effects from some passengers, I > > reflected on the good dhamma reminders we'd been hearing over > the > last few > > days and the messages from the three films I'd just watched (a > record for > > me) on the flight (with really lots of friendly smiles and great > service): > > > > 1) High Crimes: How little we know about accumulations > > 2) Time machine: You cannot change the Past > > 3) Big Fat Liar: Truth is underestimated > > ***** > > Safely back and trying not to look too happy about having missed 10 > days > > of torrential downpours this end (and more full page advertisements > from > > Quantas with.. ..you guessed, John T)..... > > > > Hopefully more to follow with others' prompts on the many > wonderful > > discussions on concepts and realities and `only the present > moment'.Tthe > > 25years we haven't seen friends is gone and with it the > stories, > the tales > > of loss and heartbreak, the changing fortunes, the different > lifestyles > > and `causes' and papanca (proliferations) we've taken > as being so > > important in ignorance during this time. > > > > I really have to thank you, Chris, and also Ken H and Andy for all > the > > keen questions and comments which prevented the rest of us from > > over-indulging in stories too, too much from `When we were even > whackier > > than we are now'..... > > > > Sarah > > > > p.s Chris, I've just realized I've spent more time with you > than > any other > > friend (other than Jon) this year to date....so, not surprising if > the > > influence is apparent here.... > > > > Btw, do you think you should ask if anyone is travelling from > anywhere to > > Kandy in Sri Lanka, so the little `borrowed' item which > appeared > out of > > THE BAG at the airport --much like a rabbit out of a hat-- could > get a > > ride? As Azita and I agreed, we'll just leave you to add any > details about > > this happy finding or the Attack from the Bubbles (otherwise safe > with Ken > > H and ourselves), only and ONLY if it's useful for progress on > the > > Path;-)). > > ================================================================ > 14609 From: goglerr Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 0:40pm Subject: Being born as a human being or an animal --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Jon and all, > > The scariest thing, and biggest difference for me, is that it seems > most animals don't have the ability to choose to perform kusala > deeds, they have so much accumulation of akusala, and therefore so > little chance to obtain a better rebirth. > I often wonder whether the possibility of rebirth as an animal is > something that people just pay lip-service to, but deep down don't > believe. Whenever rebirth is considered, many people are really > discussing past or future human births. When I consider the hardships > that animals have to endure - lack of control over their lives and > the environment they need to survive, having to endure cruelty, > treated as products or lab specimens, having not much protection at > law - I wonder why humans think they have the corner on suffering. > I also wonder why humans aren't awake to the danger of their > defilements, and why most don't feel any urgency about studying > Dhamma and developing insight. > Because of animals like my dog, I understand a little about > Obstructive Kamma (?) now. He has had an unfortunate rebirth as an > animal, but has 10 acres to roam on, two meals a day provided, > appreciative words and hugs, occasional baths (when I can catch him) > and brushings, car trips to visit relatives, a health care plan and > regular check-ups, two day beds and a hammock for nights, and regular > holidays at The Animal Motel whenever I go away. He's valiantly > making the best of a bad situation. :) > > Aren't all of us are at certain risk of an animal rebirth unless we > are far advanced on the Way? G: Wow, I couldn't agree with you more. With deep seated greed, anger and thick delusion, we just do not know what havoc they will play. Anyway, your lucky doggie has one great loveable owner. See ya. > metta, > Christine > 14610 From: goglerr Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 0:51pm Subject: Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Nice to have you back on-line. > > It is our last thought moment that determines the plane of rebirth. > If our last thought is with anger, we are reborn in hell. If our > last thought is with lobha, then we are reborn as a hungry ghost. > However, if our last thought is moha, then we are reborn as an > animal. If we are last thought moment is rootless, then we are born > as a handicapped human. With two roots, we are born as a human but > cannot become enlightened. Since you have an obvious interest in the Dhamma and the Abhidhamma, I am sure that you have three roots > (including wisdom) and therefore have the potential to be be > enlightened. Devas and higher beings all have three roots. (snip) Hi, RobM (quite a number of Robs around here :-) Regarding on the last though moment which determine the next rebirth, well, I am have the perception that some people may think of it as the last consciousness of that particular physical life. But I think that it's more likely it the last stream of thought process. what do you think? Goglerr 14611 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:27pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > > Dear Jon and all, > > The scariest thing, and biggest difference for > me, is that it seems > most animals don't have the ability to choose to > perform kusala > deeds, they have so much accumulation of akusala, > and therefore so > little chance to obtain a better rebirth. There are a few examples of animals performing kusala deeds. There was news today about a cat saving its owner (and other apartment complex occupants) from fire. There was a seal that helps pushing a dog swim to a river bank. Although kusala states are possible in non-human/non-deva planes, it is said the be difficult because of the mind base of the existence (being non-conascent with alobha, adosa, and amoha), and the living conditions of those worlds. > Whenever rebirth is considered, many > people are really > discussing past or future human births. I think thinking this way would be the foundation for not being mindful of kusala dhammas. In our daily life, there are more akusala states more than kusala states. Why should one expect to be reborn in happy planes more than in unhappy planes? > When I > consider the hardships > that animals have to endure - lack of control > over their lives and > the environment they need to survive, having to > endure cruelty, > treated as products or lab specimens, having not > much protection at > law - I wonder why humans think they have the > corner on suffering. I think because of the pre-occupation with self! We all ultimately sufferes because of the impermanent, dukkha, and anatta nature of all the 5 kandhas. What is now must fall away, and what arises depends on conditions which we have no control. The comfortable bodily feeling that is there now must fall away, and what arises in place of it may be a result of bad kamma which must be painful. > I also wonder why humans aren't awake to the > danger of their > defilements, and why most don't feel any urgency > about studying > Dhamma and developing insight. Because of ignorance and the seducing nature of the 5 kandhas, I think... > Aren't all of us are at certain risk of an animal > rebirth unless we > are far advanced on the Way? The only way to truly escape unhappy planes of existence is through the first level of enlightenment, which eliminates rebirth in non-human/non-deva planes (and hence, through satipatthana, the development of insights). Otherwise, our rebirths are subjected to all the bad kamma (and the good kamma) which have been accumulated for aeons. The only way to escape all sufferings is through arahantship. Do you think we have accumulated more good kamma or more bad kamma? Scary, isn't it... kom 14612 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello message -Andrew Hi Andrew, --- Andrew wrote: > Hello everyone > I think I am Ken H's "lurking" friend. Well, as you can see, I lurk no > more. Out of the shadowlands of secretly reading your postings and into > the sunlight of your group. ..... You were Ken H's "lurking' friend. Delighted to see you in the sunlight and you may have noticed that your pic has also made it to the DSG Hall of Fame, thanks to an excellent combination of the skills of Chris & Kom. (You’ll soon learn on DSG that Fairness is dictated by Who Holds the Camera -- a skill that Christine and Sarah F have perfected very fast indeed....In fact I think any cries of ‘Unfair’ will fall on laughing ears. Kom, I wasn't even permitted to follow your example of 'Cool' by wearing sunglasses. * ) ..... >I recently had the pleasure of meeting Jon, > Sarah, Christine and many other wonderful people in Noosa, my hometown. ..... You may find that after other members see the photos, tranquil Noosa becomes invaded by DSGers;-) ..... > This has given me the courage to tiptoe onto your screens and ask > elementary questions. You see, whilst I have been interested in > Theravada Buddhism for some 20 years, I have only recently begun to > study Abhidhamma in detail. In the past, I have always looked upon > Abhidhamma in much the same way as I look upon one of those unending > shopping lists handed to me by the better half. No more. Thank you for > sharing your knowledge! ..... Andy, all your questions are really helpful and I wouldn’t call them elementary at all. Rather the ones raised in Noosa showed an appreciation of namas and rupas, of anatta and conditions, all very relevant to the development of understanding at this moment. It was a joy to listen to your reflections and comments too. At the end of the walk from Alexandria Bay, you were asking about how lobha or other mental states are accumulated and which conditions this term refers to. There are many very knowledgable people around on DSG who can give you more detailed and accurate answers than I was able to at the time. For any reality to arise, there are so many conditions arising in combination for the conditioned reality to be formed up at that moment. So, for lobha to arise now, there must be the roots (hetu) of attachment and ignorance, the object (either a reality or a concept) of the lobha, the preceding cittas, the conascent factors, the dependence conditions and many more. All these different conditions working together as they are at this moment, means that the citta now and the lobha now accompanying it, could not be any other way. I think you’d find it helpful to read ‘Conditions’ by Nina which can be found on this website: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I’d also be glad if you raised anything else on this topic -- especially while friends like Kom are around to help out;-) -- as I may have missed thepoint and also any other points or suttas (the raft?) that were raised and which we only touched on briefly. ***** I just read the little booklet you gave us on the history of Buddhism in Qld. It mentions David Maurice who I think is the same writer Ken H mentioned before on DSG with some interesting practical pointers. I quote: Ken H: “The first Buddhist book I ever owned was, "What the Buddha REALLY Taught" by David Maurice. It went to some lengths to describe how the Dhamma was taken from country to country over the course of centuries and how it became corrupted in the process. To give you some idea of the content, the following are the sub-headings of Chapter 4, "What Buddhism isn't!": NOT A CRUTCH NO SECRET DOCTRINE NOT LAMAISM NOT A RELIGION NOT RITE AND RITUAL NOT ZEN: NOT SOKA GAKKI NOT `YOGA' OR `MEDITATION' NOT A MERE PHILOSOPHY NOT SENTIMENTALITY NOT VEGETARIANISM NOT SELFISHNESS FREAKS, FRAUDS, FANTISTS, FANATICS NOT CHANTING NOT `AN OFFSHOOT OF HINDUISM' NOT A `CARGO CULT' NOT MIRACLE-MONGERING” ***** Thank you again for your contributions to our really enjoyable weekend (Dr Ma, my acupuncturist, told me this morning my aura had really improved;-)), and hope to hear plenty from you here (along with nudges to your friend and his Draft Folder.) Sarah ====== *be warned, Rob M, I’ve been prompted to look out our camera for our evening rendezvous;-)) 14613 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 3:01pm Subject: Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Hi Goglerr, > Regarding on the last though moment which determine the next rebirth, > well, I am have the perception that some people may think of it as > the last consciousness of that particular physical life. But I think > that it's more likely it the last stream of thought process. what do > you think? > I'm on the road, so I don't have my Abhdidhammasangaha with me. The Abhdidhammasangaha has a description covering the cuti (death) citta and the patisandhi (rebirth-linking) citta. This is a special case of the thought process and I think that the Abhdidhammasangaha even has a diagram of the process. If you are looking for a less technical description of the events before and after rebirth, in a light, non-technical form, you might want to review Chapter 9 and Chapter 10 of "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" by Ashin Janakabhivamsa. http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/Abhidhamma.htm Thanks, Rob M :-) 14614 From: egberdina Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:45pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: >the difference, if any, between being born as a > human being and being born as an animal. Does anyone have any thoughts or > information on this? Thanks. > > Jon > Hi all, I speculate that at an experiential level there is no awareness of conception as conception, birth as birth or death as death. This would be the same for all living things, including humans. There would also not be awareness of I am this, I am that at such moments. My thoughts of birth and death are based on the socially constructed and socially transmitted belief systems of the groups I find myself in from time to time, not on experience. All the best Herman 14615 From: Andrew Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 4:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello message Robert I suspect the 7 footer is me!! Not quite. 6 foot 4 and shrinking. Ken is no shrimp, mind you - but a more normal "accumulation" height wise!! Andrew "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Nice to see you Andrew. Ken is a real encouragement to me personally > (Jon, sarah, and Chris do their bit too). But tell me is he really 7 > feet tall - as his photo seems to indicate? > Robert > 14616 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 7:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Dear Rob M, Thanks for forwarding this website. What a wonderful source of teaching. I especially enjoyed reading about cetasika. Thanks, Shakti robmoult wrote: Hi Goglerr, > Regarding on the last though moment which determine the next rebirth, > well, I am have the perception that some people may think of it as > the last consciousness of that particular physical life. But I think > that it's more likely it the last stream of thought process. what do > you think? > I'm on the road, so I don't have my Abhdidhammasangaha with me. The Abhdidhammasangaha has a description covering the cuti (death) citta and the patisandhi (rebirth-linking) citta. This is a special case of the thought process and I think that the Abhdidhammasangaha even has a diagram of the process. If you are looking for a less technical description of the events before and after rebirth, in a light, non-technical form, you might want to review Chapter 9 and Chapter 10 of "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" by Ashin Janakabhivamsa. http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/Abhidhamma.htm Thanks, Rob M :-) 14617 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:10pm Subject: Re: Metta in Daily Life Hi All, It is probably "bad form" to reply to your own posting, but here goes. Nine days ago, I posted the following message to collect input from DSG members. Christine, Robert Kirkpatrick and Nina gave excellent replies. My class is this Sunday, so I am hoping that there might be some last minute ideas / additions from others. Thanks, Rob M :-) PS: Jon / Sarah, it was nice to meet you for the first time... I am sure that there will be many other opportunities. Very interesting discussion! --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > In my upcoming class, I will be covering Adosa (Metta and Khanti). > > I will start with some point form notes from Nina's > book, "Cetasikas". > > Next, I will give a summary of Acharya Buddharakkhita's > book, "Metta - The Philosophy and Practice of Universal Love". What > I have done in the past and will do with this book is to download > the entire text and then delete 80% of the words, keeping 80% of the > meaning. This is the class handout (my students don't like to read). > I then summarize the main points of the handout verbally. > > Following this, I will hand out a shortened version of the Subhasita- > jaya Sutta (debate on the virtue of patience). I suspect that the US > response to September 11 will come up as a discussion point. > > Here is the web-site for the Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn11-005.html > > I have written the following "Metta in Daily Life" that I would like > the DSG to provide suggestions to add / modify / delete. > > METTA IN DAILY LIFE > =================== > Nobody needs to be convinced that metta is good; it is obvious. What > is not so obvious is how to put metta into practice. Some people > believe that if they sit in their room radiating metta to a person, > that this will somehow impact that person. This is wrong. There is > no "psychic lightning" that jumps from the meditating mind that > impacts another person. > > A Scenario > ========== > Let us consider a scenario to illustrate the application of metta in > daily life. You hear that an acquaintance has said that they thought > you were arrogant. > > Initial Reaction > ---------------- > You analyze the situation, "Conditions arose and some vipaka > ripened; the result of some past kamma. This is why I have heard > these words. Though my past conditioning limits my choices, I still > have free will; I can choose how to respond to this situation. If I > choose to react negatively, I will have to suffer in the future. > Reacting with dosa is like picking up a red-hot iron rod to hit > somebody; I hurt myself first before getting a chance to hurt the > other person." > > You examine your feelings, "I feel hurt. However, I understand that > the words themselves did not hurt me. It was the emotions that I > added onto the words that caused the hurt. The hurt comes from my > pride, my conceit, my ego and perhaps, my arrogance. The hurt comes > from me and by noting that the source of the emotions, I take away > their power." > > You think about your acquaintance, "This comment shows that my > acquaintance has dosa. They will suffer the results of this dosa > according to the workings of their own kamma. I cannot allow their > weakness to influence me and cause me to create bad kamma for > myself. I must react to this situation with mettŚ to benefit both > myself and my acquaintance." > > Planning the Response > --------------------- > To put metta into action, you decide to bake cookies for your > acquaintance. You plan the process with metta. You buy the > ingredients with metta. You mix the batter with metta. You put the > cookies into a container with metta. With metta, you visualize > yourself handing the container of cookies to your acquaintance. Each > thought and each action, when done with metta, is kusala. > > The Response > ------------ > With metta, you approach your acquaintance and give them the > container of cookies, saying something like, "I made some cookies. I > would like to share some with you. I hope that you like them." You > say it with a smile on your face and metta in your heart. > > After the Response > ------------------ > You have done something good; you have given with metta. Remember > the pleasant feeling and commit to more kusala actions. > > Metta Bhavana > ============= > In the scenario above, there was no mention of metta meditation. > Metta meditation is a training of your mind to develop a "habit" of > automatically responding to a situation with metta. > > The mind goes through millions of thought processes each > microsecond. One cannot "stand on guard" to ensure that you respond > with metta at the appropriate time. To ensure that the mind responds > with metta, it is necessary to develop a habit of metta. The only > way to develop a habit is through routine repetition - this is why > meditation must be performed regularly. > > > > Finally, I will give out a copy of Gregory Kramer's excellent piece > on teaching Metta to Children (most of my students have kids). > > http://www.buddhanet.net/imol/lovkids.htm > > > I am looking forward to input from DSG. I plan to incorporate > Christine's input plus those of others into the final talk. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14618 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patisambhidamagga 3, comments Dear Num, thank you very much for your additional remarks, they are clear and very useful. I appreciate it all the more since you have not much free time for study now. I added a remark below but I have no more questions. With appreciation, Nina. op 29-07-2002 13:09 schreef Num op Num: > < listening level.>> Nina: I like this very much, it all begins with > listening. And as said above: < Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from > listening is sutamayan~ana.> One of the conditions for satipatthana is firm > remembrance. That comes from listening and considering again and again. The > Thai Co, p. 37, uses the word bahussuta, who has heard much.>> > > Num: Yes, I now hear from Aj.Sujin almost every week about the importance of > listening (also reading and studying) and panna that comes along with > listening. Panna can be at pariyatti (logic, reasoning or manasikara) level, > or patipatti Dhammat.hitin~ana (thiti:sustain) > Matika: Knowledge in discernment of > conditions is dhammathitinana. > Atthakatha: Synonym of this nana is > paccayapariggaye panna. Thiti means > sustain. wing > by discernment of > each dhamma?s conditions, is dhammathitinana. ( attha katha > then says > dhammathitinana is equal to namarupaparichedanana plus > paccayapariggayanana > in 16 nanas. > > Num: Panna at this ~nana level is still very weak (tarunavipassana). My > understanding is panna at this level sees the conditions that > maintain/sustain/stabilize each reality, Even though each dhamma exists very > briefly, but it cannot be existed without conditions. > > < paired dhammas > (yuganaddhadhamma). It can be said that when one sees clea rly > (vipassana), > oneąs mind is one-pointed, or when oneąs mind is one-poi nted, > he/she sees > clearly. Nina:... when oneąs mind is one-pointed, > he/she sees clearly. What > degree of one-pointedness? >> > > Num: It depends on oneąs own accumulation. Degree of one-pointedness > (ekaggata-cetasika) is different from non-jhana and jhana person, but its > function is the same: to weld together its associated dhamma. > > < concentrate. Num: The atthakatha then continues with >>< dose > not let go of samadhi (upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi) and make sa madhi > > and vipassana as a dhamma in pair, one needs to keep on trying.>><< Nina: Here > the Co, p. 51, is short. I like more info if possible. Is it that someone is > so enticed by jhana that he does not apply insight and thus keep s on taking > jhana for self? Thus, the yogi who has accumulated conditions for high degrees > of samadhi should practise samadhi and vipassana as a pair, an d keep on > applying himself to this. Is that correct? >> > > Num: The two paragraphs on p.51 are very crucial. Let me re-quote: >>< magga does not let go of samadhi (upacarasamadhi and appanasamadhi) and make > samadhi and vipassana as a dhamma in pair, one needs to keep on trying.>><< > Samadhi is not exactly equal to samatha. Samatha as a pairing dhamma with > vispassana (as itąs referred to in samatha-vipassana development) refers to > adhicittasikkha/cittavisuddhi, which includes ekaggata-, sati-, and viriya > cetasikas. Nina: I am glad you repeat those crucial paragraphs. This is the concentration of the eightfold Path: ekaggata, sati and viriya. Citta visuddhi: there is only visuddhi , purity, when, as I understood, there is also the development of the eightfold Path, so that one does not take realities for self. Num: A.Supee also gave some more detail on the difference between a > person who attains nibbana with 8 magga factors vs 7 magga factors. My > understanding, as I said, is Ven,Sariputta covered all possible means of > attaining nibbana, with or without jhana. Jhana is neither necessary nor > sufficient for nibbana. Jhana is also not contraindicated for attaining > nibbana. Jhanna citta can be a base for magga citta, but pana at jhana citta > level is not enough for vipassana. My understanding of the quote is samadhi in > jhana citta is not exactly the same as samadhi in magga citta. If someone > hold on the samadhi in jhana level, he cannot attain nibbana. When he let go > of jhana and has samatha and vipassana (satipatthana/magga moment) as pairing > dhamma, he then reaches the stream. 14619 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances Dear Larry, O.K. I go to the Visuddhimagga IV, 105-106. op 30-07-2002 02:30 schreef <> op <>: As a consequence of this discussion I have become interested > in the five hindrances (nivarana), sensuous desire (kamachnda), ill-will > (vyapada), sloth and torpor (thina-middha), restlessness and scruples > (uddhacca-kukkucca), and skeptical doubt (vicikiccha). So if you could > work these into the discussion that would also be helpful. Nina: The Vis. states: Thus we see that samadhi is assisted by the other jhanafactors while it concentrates on the meditation subject. As higher stages of jhana are attained, calm and concentration have become stronger, and thus less jhanafactors are needed to attain calm with the meditation subject. When Samatha is developed there is calm with the kusala citta. Also when we perform dana and sila there is calm, but its characteristic may not appear since we are involved with sense impressions. For instance, we give something away with kusala citta, but there is also seeing in between and clinging to visible object, even though we do not notice this. We discussed already the cetasikas calm, passaddhi, of citta and calm of the (mental) body. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 144): Ś ...But both tranquillity of that body and of consciousness have, together, the characteristic of quieting disturbance of that body and of consciousness. Their function is to crush disturbance of the (mental) body and of consciousness. They are manifested as inactivity and coolness of the (mental) body and of consciousness...ą When the citta is not intent on dĺna, síla or bhĺvĺna, mental development, there is no calm, passaddhi. Concentration on breathing with the aim to become relaxed is not a way of kusala kamma, it is not samatha. There is then no passaddhi with the citta, even if one thinks that one is feeling calm. At such a moment there may not be dosa, but lobha and moha are bound to arise. Right understanding of what is kusala and what is akusala will prevent us from taking for samatha what is not samatha. If one believes that one can develop calm to the degree of jhĺna, one should know about the many conditions which have to be fulfilled in order to attain it. If one understands how difficult it is to attain jhĺna one will not mislead oneself and believe that one has attained it when there is a sensation of sense-impressions being blotted out or other unusual experiences. The person who wants to develop samatha to the degree of jhĺna should lead a secluded life and he should not spend his time with various entertainments such as one enjoys while leading a worldly life. One should really see the disadvantages of sense-pleasures and one should have the intention to cultivate the conditions for being away from them. If the right conditions are not fulfilled there cannot even be access-concentration (upacĺra-samadhi) nor can there be the attainment of jhĺna. The Visuddhimagga (XII, 8) explains how difficult even the preliminary work is, and how difficult access-concentration and jhĺna are. We read about each stage: łOne in a hundred or thousand can do it.˛ If one leads a worldly life and is busy with oneąs daily tasks there are no favourable conditions for jhĺna. One cannot expect to attain jhĺna if one just for a little while every day concentrates on breathing. Moreover, it is not concentration which should be stressed but right understanding, pańńĺ. There must be right understanding of breath which is rúpa, conditioned by citta. It appears at the nose-tip or upper-lip, but it is very subtle. We should remember that mindfulness of breathing is one of the most difficult subjects of meditation. We read in the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 211): Ś...But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas, and Buddhasą sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons... Ś Buddhasą sons were the great disciples who had accumulated excellent qualities and skill for jhĺna. It may happen that one confuses air, that appears for example when blowing, with breath, rupa conditioned by citta. Breath appears as hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure, and it is experienced through the bodysense, just at the upperlip or nosetip. When there is mindfulness of breath as it naturally appears, the citta is kusala. When one tries to know it with attachment, there is not mindfulness of breath, there is not the development of calm with this meditation subject. Thus, there are many ways in which one may go wrong. One has to know precisely when the citta is kusala and when akusala. Best wishes from Nina. 14620 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello message Hi Andrew, Welcome. I am glad you do not lurk anymore. It would be interesting if you write about your discussions in Noosa, and also your conversations with Ken H, which I am sure must be very beneficial. What in particular did you learn from him? With appreciation, Nina. op 30-07-2002 08:52 schreef Andrew op <>: > Hello everyone > I think I am Ken H's "lurking" friend. Well, as you can see, I lurk no > more. 14621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Dear Rob M, thank you for your observations. I heard it said that if you study and consider the teachings and begin to develop awareness of nama and rupa: do not fear an unhappy rebirth, even if you have made mistakes in your life, we all do. There is only one thing in your post: the moments just before the cuti-citta are conditioning the next rebirth, not the cuti-citta itself, which is just the same type as the bhavangacittas of that life and which has as its only function being the last citta of that lifespan. With appreciation, Nina. op 30-07-2002 23:44 schreef robmoult op <>: > A general answer to your questions below is that kamma is extrememly > fair. One's last thought moment is critical in determining plane of > rebirth. It's called the cuti citta (death citta). 14622 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Dhammadharo Dear Azita, I was really moved by the quote from the late Ven. Dhammadharo, how much alive he still seems, and what a lovely reminder. If you have more quotes it is most beneficial. There is not anything else but nama and rupa. with appreciation, Nina. op 31-07-2002 02:43 schreef azita gill op <>: > < Here is a quote from the now deceased Ven. > Dhammadharo, dated 2519 BE. > < 'If its not complacency that overwhelms us, its a > kind of despair, a hopless feeling that we will never > know the truth. When we are in the grip of this > despair it seems we want to be Sotapannas first and > free fromall wrong view and doubt at least, then > settle down to beginning to be aware of different > kinds of nama and rupa! > < Why not face up to the reality of akusula? How > else can we ever Know it but by being aware of it when > it appears and learning to be detached from it? Be > patient, be strong, be aware! Is it nama or is it > rupa? Because it certainly ISN'T anything else....' >> May all beings be happy, > < Azita. > 14623 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Music, to Herman. Dear Herman, I am glad to hear from you. Just a few days ago when listening to music I thought of you, wondering how you were. I thought of our contacts about music, was wondering how you are getting on with your work. Best wishes, from Nina. op 31-07-2002 10:45 schreef egberdina op Herman: > I speculate that at an experiential level there is no awareness of > conception as conception, birth as birth or death as death. This > would be the same for all living things, including humans. There > would also not be awareness of I am this, I am that at such moments. > My thoughts of birth and death are based on the socially constructed > and socially transmitted belief systems of the groups I find myself > in from time to time, not on experience. 14624 From: robmoult Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 6:02am Subject: [dsg] Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Hi Nina, As you were writing your message in Holland, I was meeting with Jon and Sarah in Hong Kong. They gave me a gift of your "Buddhism in Daily Life" book (previously, I only had a .PDF version). I gave to them a half-finished set of my class notes. Sabbadanam dhammadanam jinati: "The gift of the Dhamma excels all other gifts" I mentioned to Jon and Sarah that I was quite confident on the material that I had already presented to the class in the first six months, but was far less confident on material not yet presented and therefore not yet researched. Still another six months to go! I have not yet covered the rebirth process in my class. Your point about the limited function of the cuti citta is, of course, correct and there is a lot more stuff (nimittas, how to treat a dying person, etc.) that should be said about the subject. In the future, if I am going to post about something that I have not yet covered in my class, I will add a header to my message as follows: ***** WARNING - UNRESEARCHED MATERIAL, MAY CONTAIN ERRORS ***** Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > thank you for your observations. > I heard it said that if you study and consider the teachings and begin to > develop awareness of nama and rupa: do not fear an unhappy rebirth, even if > you have made mistakes in your life, we all do. > There is only one thing in your post: the moments just before the cuti-citta > are conditioning the next rebirth, not the cuti-citta itself, which is just > the same type as the bhavangacittas of that life and which has as its only > function being the last citta of that lifespan. > With appreciation, > Nina. > > op 30-07-2002 23:44 schreef robmoult op <>: > > > > A general answer to your questions below is that kamma is extrememly > > fair. One's last thought moment is critical in determining plane of > > rebirth. It's called the cuti citta (death citta). 14625 From: <> Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 6:55am Subject: ADL ch. 18 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 18 (3) It may not be appealing to see the body as elements. We think of people as 'this man' or 'that woman'. We are not used to analysing what we take for a 'person' in the way we analyse matter, as we do, for example in physics. One might find it crude to think of a body carved up as a cow is carved up by a butcher. However, if we consider the body as it is, there are only elements. Isn't it true that there are solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion? Are these realities 'self', or are they elements devoid of 'self'? Do the four elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion have anything to do with our daily life? These elements arise all the time. Temperature can appear either as heat or cold; do we not feel heat or cold very often? When we are stung by an insect we can experience the characteristic of heat. We can feel impact of hardness or softness on our body when we are lying down, sitting, walking or standing. Is that not daily life? If we are mindful of the characteristics of the elements more often, we will see things as they are. The Buddha reminded people of the truth in many different ways. Sometimes he spoke about the body as a corpse in different stages of dissolution. Or he spoke about the 'parts of the body' and he explained how the body is full of impurities, in order to remind people that what we take for our body are only elements which are devoid of beauty, which are dukkha, impermanent and not self. We read in the 'Satipatthana-sutta', in the section about mindfulness of the body: Monks, it is like a double-mouthed provision bag that is full of various kinds of grain such as hill-paddy, paddy, kidneybeans, peas, sesame, rice; and a keen-eyed man, pouring them out, were to reflect: 'That's hill-paddy, that's paddy, that's kidneybeans, that's peas, that's sesame, that's rice.' Even so monks, does a monk reflect on precisely this body itself, encased in skin and full of various impurities, from the soles of the feet up and from the crown of the head down... Not only the body, but also the mind should be considered as elements. There is nothing in our life which is not an element. Our past lives were only elements and our future lives will only be elements. We are inclined to think of our future life and wish for a happy rebirth. We should, however, realize that there is no self which in the future will have another existence; there are and will be only elements. We have learned to classify citta in different ways and this reminds us that cittas are only elements. Not only cittas are elements, but cetasikas too are elements. We are attached to happy feeling and we dislike unpleasant feeling. Feelings, however, are only elements, which arise because of conditions. When we are tired or sick we take tiredness and sickness for self and we have aversion. Why do we not accept unpleasant things as they come to us, since they are only elements? One might not be inclined to see realities as elements, but it is the truth. One might not like to remember that things are impermanent, that birth is followed by ageing, sickness and death, but it is the truth. Why do we not want to see the truth? 14626 From: <> Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 7:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances Hi Nina, I wonder about this line: "Concentration (samadhi) has nondistraction as its characteristic." Is any state of mind that is not distracted considered to be in samadhi? Everyone throughout the day performs many tasks, physical and conceptual, with nondistraction. Is that considered samadhi? If one listens to the dhamma with concentration free from the hindrances (sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness, and doubt) is that samadhi? What is samadhi, or what is distraction on the level of citta process? What is the difference between concentration and compaction? Also what makes samadhi lokuttara (supramundane)? My guess is the general theme "less is better" or the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta). best wishes, Larry 14627 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ideas about birth and death (was, Re: Noosa weekend) Herman Nice to see you back :-)). --- egberdina wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > >the difference, if any, between being born as a > > human being and being born as an animal. Does anyone have any > thoughts or > > information on this? Thanks. > > > > Jon > > > > Hi all, > > I speculate that at an experiential level there is no awareness of > conception as conception, birth as birth or death as death. This > would be the same for all living things, including humans. There > would also not be awareness of I am this, I am that at such moments. > My thoughts of birth and death are based on the socially constructed > and socially transmitted belief systems of the groups I find myself > in from time to time, not on experience. Just to supplement your comment that "my thoughts of birth and death are based on the socially constructed and socially transmitted belief systems of the groups I find myself in from time to time, not on experience", there are of course one's observations of birth and death of others to add into the mix, and I guess these count as 'experience' of some kind. However, I think your point is that any ideas we may hold as to what if anything precedes birth and follows death in this life are not experience-based. This is undoubtedly so, as a general rule, and is a useful reminder to have. There may be a tendency to try to 'correct' our thinking on rebirth/kamma/superior being so that it accords with what we find expressed in the teachings, and is therefore 'right', but this I believe would be deluding ourselves on the matter. By the way, I am not so sure that direct experience is necessarily entirely lacking in the ideas we may hold. I believe the texts indicate that beings born in some of the heavenly realms are able to recollect their previous life as a human being. Likewise, in previous lives one may have attained the jhanas together with powers of recollection of former lives. Could ideas based on these episodes in your view be regarded as experience-based? (I suppose it could be argued that to ask this question is to make the very assumption that you are saying we need to question!) Jon 14628 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Hi Herman, Hope you’re all doing well and glad to see you back after your DSG holiday;-) Hope you can join us next time we get to Noosa. --- egberdina wrote: > I speculate that at an experiential level there is no awareness of > conception as conception, birth as birth or death as death. This > would be the same for all living things, including humans. There > would also not be awareness of I am this, I am that at such moments. ..... Can we say, in your view, that whenever there is an idea of “I am this, I am that”, that it is merely thinking (very often with wrong view)? Can we also agree that “I” and what is taken for “I” are merely namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena)? Do these phenomena change at this moment? Is there any birth and death of them? Is what we take for “Herman” now the same as “Herman” a moment ago? Is there any reason why these changing phenomena should not arise and pass away in the future too? ..... > My thoughts of birth and death are based on the socially constructed > and socially transmitted belief systems of the groups I find myself > in from time to time, not on experience. ..... Good to recognize this and as you suggest, it is only that which can be directly experienced and proved (by direct wisdom) that ultimately is of any real value. Sarah ====== 14629 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta in Daily Life Hi Rob M (& Kom at the end), --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > It is probably "bad form" to reply to your own posting, but here > goes. ..... I’m glad you have as we often need prompting..... ..... > > Nine days ago, I posted the following message to collect input from > DSG members. Christine, Robert Kirkpatrick and Nina gave excellent > replies. > > My class is this Sunday, so I am hoping that there might be some > last minute ideas / additions from others. ..... I don’t have anything much to add, but am happy to go through your post below, more carefully than when I was on holiday and with the extra prompt to be more ‘picky’. I know you genuinely wish to hear any feedback. ..... >> PS: Jon / Sarah, it was nice to meet you for the first time... I am > sure that there will be many other opportunities. Very interesting > discussion! ..... We were very glad to meet you too, to hear about your growing interest in dhamma and abhidhamma, your visits to temples and studies in Canada, Jakarta, Singapore and Malaysia before finding DSG in a search (*Kom see note at end), and to then discuss your main question based on the description on the DSG homepage, i.e how there can be practice and the understanding of realities at this moment when there are so many distractions and so on. More on this later. Back to metta -> ***** First, there has been a lot of discussion on metta on the list. The two main points of contention and debate seem to be; 1) Should metta start with oneself? Can there be metta for oneself? 2) Are conditions in a quiet, cross-legged position with eyes closed and no distractions more conducive to metta bhavana? There is plenty of helpful (just my opinion) material under ‘Metta’ in Useful Posts with many reference sources http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Also, you may wish to follow some of the threads discussing the above points. There was a long one earlier this year which Christine, Victor, myself and others were having. Let us know if you need a link to the start of it. ***** > > Following this, I will hand out a shortened version of the > Subhasita- > > jaya Sutta (debate on the virtue of patience). I suspect that the > US > > response to September 11 will come up as a discussion point. ..... I find this sutta full of helpful reminders --reminders of the value of kusala and the real meaning of strength, winning the battle ‘hard to win’ with patience and metta. “Those who think you a fool, know nothing of Dhamma”. Isn’t it true that the tests are when we are provoked? Reponse to 9/11 - in reality, there are always so many changing cittas and cetasikas - different moments of wise and unwise reflection, skilful and unskilful reactions, thinking in terms of a ‘situation’ or ‘story’ when really there are only different realities to be known. A moment with patience is so very brief and then there are bound to be many moments with lobha, dosa and moha. All are conditioned, not self. ..... > > Nobody needs to be convinced that metta is good; it is obvious. ..... I believe it is obvious in theory. In practice, at this moment when we are with other people or talking with friends on the net, is there any understanding of the characteristic of metta, of which moments are accompanied by metta and which by lobha (attachment)? ..... > What > > is not so obvious is how to put metta into practice. Some people > > believe that if they sit in their room radiating metta to a > person, > > that this will somehow impact that person. This is wrong. There is > > no "psychic lightning" that jumps from the meditating mind that > > impacts another person. ..... I like the way you put this;-) Putting metta into practice....hmm...is there an idea of ‘doing’, of ‘making’ or ‘trying to’ make it happen? Is there an idea of someone who has metta or wishing to have metta? ..... > > > > A Scenario > > ========== > > Let us consider a scenario to illustrate the application of metta > in > > daily life. You hear that an acquaintance has said that they > thought > > you were arrogant. > > > > Initial Reaction > > ---------------- > > You analyze the situation, "Conditions arose and some vipaka > > ripened; the result of some past kamma. This is why I have heard > > these words. Though my past conditioning limits my choices, I > still > > have free will; I can choose how to respond to this situation. If > I > > choose to react negatively, I will have to suffer in the future. ..... I understand the point and like the examples with the cookies that follow. Of course, as I know you realize, analyzing the situation is not the same as understanding and being aware of realities as Nina recently was discussing with Howard on the white tissue thread. It can be wise reflection certainly, but more useful still would be awareness of thinking as a conditioned nama (as we discussed a little last night). As for “choices, I still have free will, I can choose”.....these words can be used conventionally with no wrong view necessarily at all, as we might say “I chose to go to Noosa for a holiday”, but it’s important to understand that ultimately, as we know from our abhidhamma studies, there are only ever conditioned namas and rupas, no self that decides or chooses. (See posts under ‘Anatta and Control’ in U.P.) ..... ------------ >> You have done something good; you have given with metta. Remember > > the pleasant feeling and commit to more kusala actions. ..... Perhaps you can stress a little more that even whilst offering a gift, there are moments of generosity, accompanied by metta, but also moments of attachment to the gift or the recipients. Pleasant feelings accompany both and we know that attachment is the near enemy of metta. Understanding the value of kusala deeds is essential, but so is the understanding that the mental states are not self and not worth being clung to. ..... > > > > Metta Bhavana > > ============= > > In the scenario above, there was no mention of metta meditation. > > Metta meditation is a training of your mind to develop a "habit" > of > > automatically responding to a situation with metta. > > > > The mind goes through millions of thought processes each > > microsecond. One cannot "stand on guard" to ensure that you > respond > > with metta at the appropriate time. To ensure that the mind > responds > > with metta, it is necessary to develop a habit of metta. The only > > way to develop a habit is through routine repetition - this is why > > meditation must be performed regularly. ..... I really like your emphasis on ‘meditation in action’, and a ‘training’ of the mind to develop good habits. ‘Routine repetition’ of metta.....yesss...but with understanding precisely the characteristic of metta, when there is metta and not. In otherwords, understanding is the key to development, otherwise we may kid ourselves that metta is being developed everytime we bake and offer cookies without knowing anything about realities. Conversely, even when there are no cookies or other offering, there may be metta, even though the recipient may never have any idea. (this isn’t meant to discourage any offerings or other ‘good’ deeds - only to show that we cannot tell from the ‘situation’ necessarily). Would we like to be the one with lots of metta? Would we like to have more metta in our lives? As soon as there is the selection, I think it shows the attachment again. ..... > > Finally, I will give out a copy of Gregory Kramer's excellent > piece > > on teaching Metta to Children (most of my students have kids). > > > > http://www.buddhanet.net/imol/lovkids.htm ..... Thank you for this nice reference. As I work with lots and lots of kids, I always like looking at materials for kids. Again we come back to the question I started with w/regard to metta for oneself. I’d prefer to help the kids consider more ‘just as I’d like to be happy and free from suffering and so on’, so would the other people we’re with, the cockroaches etc... ***** Finally, back to your comment last night about the “DSG view” and the homepage description question. Firstly, there is no “DSG view”. We’re a collection of 200+ members here with different understandings of the Teachings, but a shared interest in considering and discussing them further. With regard to the question, as we started to discuss, there really only ever is the present moment, the present namas and rupas conditioned just as they are at this time. If there is the idea that now it’s too noisy or we’re too busy or too distracted and another time would be more suitable, I think it suggests an idea of selection, an idea of self that would prefer another reality to the seeing or hearing or thinking or feeling or whatever paramattha dhamma it is that is being experienced right now. Rob K included the following quote from K.Sujin in his post yesterday: ***** " if one thinks that one should rather have objects other than the present one, since these appear to be more wholesome, one will never study the object which appears now. And how can one know their true nature when there is no study, no awareness of them? So it must be the present object, only what appears now. This is more difficult because it is not the object of desire. If desire can move one away to another object, that object satisfies one's desire. Desire is there all the time. If there is no understanding of lobha as lobha, how can it be eradicated? One has to understand different degrees of realities, also lobha which is more subtle, otherwise one does not know when there is lobha. Seeing things as they are. Lobha is lobha. Usually one does not see the subtle lobha which moves one away from developing right understanding of the present object."endquote ***** Thank you again for sharing your examples and comments and links. Your Notes and presentations are very imaginative and interesting so I can easily understand how the time goes quickly. I know you’ll put all these comments through the sieve and just extract anything that may be of assistance and leave the rest;-) Sarah p.s to Kom: Rob M told us how he found DSG on a search engine. He also mentioned that he is backing up the entire DSG archives --as well as going through them systematically-- and will give us a copy of his file eventually for safe-keeping. You may wish to liaise with him on any technical/engineering points. ====================================================== 14630 From: rikpa21 Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 3:24pm Subject: Re: Samatha and Vipassana --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: Hi Robert & fellow DSG'ers, Enjoyed reading most of the points in your post, but wanted to raise this anapanasati (mindfulness of breathing) issue again, since it's come up again... > What seems to be the most common object peolple choose these > days is anapanasati, the most difficult of all objects, > according to the texts. As I think I mentioned before, I have been unable to find support for this opinion anyplace in the Suttas. I suspect this conclusion was reached by interpreting this portion of Buddhagosa's Visuddhimagga VII.211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any other meditation subect other than [anapanasati] gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficut to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and Buddhas' sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial people. In proportion as continued attention is given to it, it becomes more peaceful and more subtle. So strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary here." One important question: how do you interpret "Buddhas' sons"? That could be interpretreted as anyone who's gone for refuge at all! Once one has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, then in my book, at least, that qualifies one as a "Buddha's son or daughter." To add one comment here: I have found /no/ basis in the Suttas for the opinion the anapanasati is /too hard/, and I would be happy if someone, someplace, could find me a reference to the Sutta Pitaka that states this "too hard" notion directly, or even by implication. Anapanasati, for many, is no more difficult a meditation subject than any other, and the benefits are manifold, as it leads not only to pacifying the hindrances, but also opens the door to the absorption of the jhanas (i.e. Right Concentration). Anapanasati was praised very highly (moreso than anyo other single form of meditation in my readings) by the Buddha, and the idea it's "too difficult" flies in the face of countless experienced meditators as well as what the Buddha taught in the Suttas. Anapanasati is taught as the primary vehicle for establishing both samatha and the absorption of the jhanas in the Tibetan tradition, for example, as it is in the orthodox Theravada tradition. It is notably the accorded the status of being the /first/ training exercise in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta as well as the abridged Satipatthana Sutta, as a means for developing mindfulness and clear comprehension, leading to the establishment of Right Concentration as well as Right Mindfulness. For those who prefer the Visuddhimagga to the Buddha's teachings in the Suttas, it may be helpful to consider Anapanasati in light of the descriptions of its various features (Vis. VIII.145) as a whole, before making discouraging remarks about the development of mindfulness of breathing. Therein are detailed all the benefits of anapanasati, and they are numerous. For those who prefer the Buddha's instruction in the Suttas (in the case, the Anapanasati Sutta): "Monks, I am content with this practice. I am content at heart with this practice. So arouse even more intense persistence for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet- unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized. "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." Robert, I know of no other meditation subject spoken of by the Buddha in such terms: "I am content with this practice. I am content at heart with this practice." As with any Sutta, key is understanding not only the definitive meaning (nitattha vs. neyyattha), but also the mentality of the audience the Buddha was addressing. In this case, it ranged from those pursuing the first fruit of the Holy Life all the way to arahats. In addition to the stream-winners, once-returners, non- returners, and arahats, included are: "...monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. "...monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of monks. "...monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing." So in this Sutta the Buddha addresses those falling within the entire spectrum of disciples, from those who have cast off the yoke of samsaric existence comlpetely to those with a long way to go. > This object does need special conditions > - erect back, fixed posture, quiet, much application etc.; thus > when on dsg we talk about vipassana in daily life it perhaps > seems so different from what people are used to thinking of as > bhavana(meditation). That may or may not be the case. In my training (on the Tibetan side), mindfulness throughout /all/ activities is strenuously emphasized. It is, in fact, a root vow. However, mindfulness is not taught separately from planting ass on cushion and meditating on the breath to establish samatha conjoined with vipassana meditation on emptiness/anatta, but as an integral whole. The formal training and resolute application of mindfulness play vital roles in ensuring there is enough of what the Zennists call "joriki" (deep concentration borne of meditative momentum, or power): http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/bodhidharma/zazen.html I submit that this type of bhavana, with perhaps a few rare exceptions, is a requisite condition for "daily life" meditation, since it is the basis for developing a degree of mindfulness and concentration sufficient to condition insight amidst daily activities. Without having developed deep enough concentration by yoking oneself to the disciplines that engender mindfulness, clear comprehension, and concentration (samma samadhi a natural by-product of well-established mindfulness), then I'd suggest that the odds of sati arising in the course of daily activities is extremely low. Perhaps one helpful question to answer for oneself is, "how long can it is possible to maintain unbroken mindfulness, even while sitting?" If the answer is "for a few seconds" or even "for a few minutes," then I submit there is a lot of bhavana needed before mindfulness and concentration are well-enough established to arise amidst daily activities, consistently, to the point they yield the fruits of the Holy Path. I realize this is one opinion only, but it is entirely consistent with what I've been taught and most importantly, in experience (not pretending to have mindfulness in all daily life situations though! Much bhavana needed for that yet! :). Cheers, Erik 14631 From: robmoult Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 4:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Metta in Daily Life Hi Kom, --- Sarah wrote: > p.s to Kom: Rob M told us how he found DSG on a search engine. He also > mentioned that he is backing up the entire DSG archives --as well as going > through them systematically-- and will give us a copy of his file > eventually for safe-keeping. You may wish to liaise with him on any > technical/engineering points. > ====================================================== Let me explain what I am doing. I select "messages" and the "expand messages" option. I start at message #1 and what is displayed on my screen is a listing of all of the text in the first 15 messages posted. I then pick "File / Save As" to save everything as a complete web page. I have created a directory on my hard disk for this. Once this web page is saved, I select "Next" and messages 16 - 30 are displayed. I save this as a separate web page on my hard disk. I have completed about 10% of the messages and the directory is about 13 Meg. This means that the final directory will be about 130 Meg. I will burn this onto a CD for safekeeping. Frankly, it is a tedious process... not very elegant. However, I will be able to search for key words using the Windows search feature when I am looking for a key word. I can also use those long hours on airplanes to quickly scan past postings to see what has been discussed. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14632 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 4:39pm Subject: Moments before Death (was Being born as a human being or an animal Hi Rob M, and All, I've read the chapters 8 & 9 you mentioned at http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/Abhidhamma.htm Just bear with me here Rob :) - I think I make the worst type of student. if only I could just memorise and believe ... I have great difficulty with understanding that the last moment or the last half hour of life has such incredible consequences. Many people in this country die unexpectedly and unpredictably. (crime, car accident, heart attack, stroke). It is not the custom to die at home, so, of the remainder, most of us die after a long illness in Hospital or Nursing Home, either unconscious or with consciousness clouded by palliative drugs. Their deaths are not peaceful or aware. I wonder what point there is in observing Precepts, trying to lead a virtuous life, studying , or mental development if, in the end, the Plane of Future Rebirth is decided by one's mood/thoughts just before death? Anything can affect thought processes and emotions - it does not necessarily follow that leading a good life makes for an easy, calm death. Do you know of a reference to this 'importance of the last moments' in the Suttas? I do understand (or rather, accept) that kamma performed aeons back can loop in and come to fruition anytime. However, the idea that altering the environment of a dying person by moving them to a temple, or by perfuming the air, or chanting can control the Rebirth destination is a harder thing to accept..... Should we train Mood Enhancers rather than Pastoral Care Workers? I know kamma is said to be blind in the sense of being impartial and consistent, but surely....not so easily manipulated?... Then again, I've always had difficulty understanding kamma - perhaps I'm missing the point ... And, with respect, I'll withhold comment on the others mentioned in 'Some Strange Cases', and instead completely disagree that "A pond heron or bittern, feeling pleasure from southern breeze at the beginning of monsoon, becomes pregnant." .... at least, not the pond herons I know .... :) metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > A general answer to your questions below is that kamma is extrememly > fair. One's last thought moment is critical in determining plane of > rebirth. It's called the cuti citta (death citta). It is too big of > a subject to be covered in a single posting. I haven't come to that > subject in my class yet, so I don't have a point form summary of the > subject. > > Here is a link to another book called "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" > (this one by Ashin Janakabhivamsa). It is a lighter read than Nina's > book, but doesn't go into as much depth as Nina's book on most > subjects. > > http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/Abhidhamma.htm > > I think that you would find Chapter 8 (Mind Processes Immediately > Precceeding Death) and Chapter 9 (Patisandhi - The Nature of > Rebirth) particularly relevant to this posting. > > Chapter 10 of Nina's ADL (The First Citta in Life) has more > information as well. > > I would love to take a stab at aswering your questions below, but I > suspect that reading these three chapters will answer some of your > questions (and raise lots of other interesting ones as well). I > would like to suggest that you read these three chapters and list > some questions. It is a very big topic. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob M, and all, > > > > :) Glad to be back. This is very interesting. So one's last > thought > > is of paramount importance ..... I wonder then, about the fairness > of > > the whole process. Couldn't one then live a careless and > > disreptuable life but, either accidentally or purposefully, have a > > calm or beautiful last thought, and so have a fortunate rebirth? > And > > does this also mean someone with a strong conscience who did a > couple > > of minor misdemeanours but otherwise led an blameless, immaculate > > life could happen to think with regret about the misdemeanours and > be > > born in unfortunate circumstances?..... > > I think I suffer from the "Do not think of elephants" syndrome - > the > > minute you order your mind not to, it is filled with images of > > elephants. So I'm likely (if I know when I'm dying) to think 'I > > mustn't think with regret about things I've done wrong, I mustn't > > think with regret about things I've done wrong' - oops, too > > late ..... :) > > From the little I know about the complexity of conditions, would > it > > be fair to say that the last thought - though a very important > > influence on the state of rebirth - may not be the only influence? > > > > And, getting back to the animals, mostly they die in fear, anger > and > > pain - or at least, deep ignorance, - so their chances of a better > > rebirth are very slim indeed.... > > > > metta, > > Christine 14633 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 5:00pm Subject: Being born as a human being or an animal / Kom Dear Kom, Thank you for your examples about animals performing kusala deeds. I also am aware of a dog locked inside with his elderly owner, who became too ill to move or call for help. For very many days the dog carried a cloth in his mouth to the toilet, soaked it in water in the bowl, and carried it back to its owner to suck the moisture. This saved the owners life. That first level of enlightenment that ensures no further birth in sorrowful planes seems so hard to reach, so far away ... I don't judge anyone else, but my accumulations of kamma (that I know of) are stacked so high on the 'bad' side that even thinking about it is disheartening .... and it is scary. metta, Christine --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth > > > > Dear Jon and all, > > > > The scariest thing, and biggest difference for > > me, is that it seems > > most animals don't have the ability to choose to > > perform kusala > > deeds, they have so much accumulation of akusala, > > and therefore so > > little chance to obtain a better rebirth. > > There are a few examples of animals performing kusala deeds. > There was news today about a cat saving its owner (and other > apartment complex occupants) from fire. There was a seal > that helps pushing a dog swim to a river bank. Although > kusala states are possible in non-human/non-deva planes, it > is said the be difficult because of the mind base of the > existence (being non-conascent with alobha, adosa, and > amoha), and the living conditions of those worlds. > > > Whenever rebirth is considered, many > > people are really > > discussing past or future human births. > > I think thinking this way would be the foundation for not > being mindful of kusala dhammas. In our daily life, there > are more akusala states more than kusala states. Why should > one expect to be reborn in happy planes more than in unhappy > planes? > > > > When I > > consider the hardships > > that animals have to endure - lack of control > > over their lives and > > the environment they need to survive, having to > > endure cruelty, > > treated as products or lab specimens, having not > > much protection at > > law - I wonder why humans think they have the > > corner on suffering. > > I think because of the pre-occupation with self! We all > ultimately sufferes because of the impermanent, dukkha, and > anatta nature of all the 5 kandhas. What is now must fall > away, and what arises depends on conditions which we have no > control. The comfortable bodily feeling that is there now > must fall away, and what arises in place of it may be a > result of bad kamma which must be painful. > > > I also wonder why humans aren't awake to the > > danger of their > > defilements, and why most don't feel any urgency > > about studying > > Dhamma and developing insight. > > Because of ignorance and the seducing nature of the 5 > kandhas, I think... > > > Aren't all of us are at certain risk of an animal > > rebirth unless we > > are far advanced on the Way? > > The only way to truly escape unhappy planes of existence is > through the first level of enlightenment, which eliminates > rebirth in non-human/non-deva planes (and hence, through > satipatthana, the development of insights). Otherwise, our > rebirths are subjected to all the bad kamma (and the good > kamma) which have been accumulated for aeons. The only way > to escape all sufferings is through arahantship. > > Do you think we have accumulated more good kamma or more bad > kamma? Scary, isn't it... > > > kom 14634 From: robmoult Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 5:00pm Subject: Re: Moments before Death (was Being born as a human being or an animal Hi Christine, I want to give you a complete answer to try and address your concerns. It will be useful preparation for my "Death" lecture, which is at least a couple of months away. To prepare a complete answer, I will have to do some research. I have some books at home (I go home on weekends) so I will not be able to get back to you on this until next week. I find it best to take some of Ashin Janakabhivamsa's remarks with a grain of salt. The text was originally written by a Burmese for a Burmese audience and this impacts the style. I don't think that any of Nina's books include references to pregnant pond herons :-) Thanks, Rob M :-) 14635 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 5:11pm Subject: Re: Moments before Death (was Being born as a human being or an animal This is very kind of you, Rob - I'll look forward to your reply next week. metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I want to give you a complete answer to try and address your > concerns. It will be useful preparation for my "Death" lecture, > which is at least a couple of months away. > > To prepare a complete answer, I will have to do some research. I > have some books at home (I go home on weekends) so I will not be > able to get back to you on this until next week. > > I find it best to take some of Ashin Janakabhivamsa's remarks with a > grain of salt. The text was originally written by a Burmese for a > Burmese audience and this impacts the style. I don't think that any > of Nina's books include references to pregnant pond herons :-) > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14636 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta in Daily Life Rob M It was a pleasure meeting you yesterday evening, and I very much enjoyed our chat. I am only sorry that Sarah and I were not able to stay longer -- the discussion was just beginning to get interesting! On the subject of 'metta', there is one comment I would make. The development of any kusala (wholesome) quality, metta included, is dependent on one's ability to recognise the quality when it arises in daily life naturally and effortlessly, as undoubtedly these qualities do from time to time. If at those moments the mental state is recognised for what it is, and there is appreciation of its value and of the benefits of its development, this will be a condition for its arising again in the future. But if the wholesome quality is not known for what it is at those times when it actually arises, we can not expect to be able to distinguish the real thing from its near enemy or other forms of akusala when it is being ‘aroused’ in the prompted sense. Personally, I am sceptical of the idea of 'arousing' metta as an antidote to dosa. When we have the idea of developing metta towards someone to whom our natural reaction is one of dosa, this seems to smack of the idea of control. Are our motives really wholesome, or are there personal reasons for wanting to see metta arise instead of dosa (aversion to the idea of our dosa, for example)? The kilesa are so tricky, and can be so subtle. It's true that one can find in the suttas instances of kusala being aroused to replace akusala, but I think you will find this occurs in the context of kusala that has been developed to the level of a power or faculty, and these references have no application at more 'ordinary' levels of kusala. Just my thoughts. Jon --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > It is probably "bad form" to reply to your own posting, but here > goes. > > Nine days ago, I posted the following message to collect input from > DSG members. Christine, Robert Kirkpatrick and Nina gave excellent > replies. > > My class is this Sunday, so I am hoping that there might be some > last minute ideas / additions from others. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > PS: Jon / Sarah, it was nice to meet you for the first time... I am > sure that there will be many other opportunities. Very interesting > discussion! 14637 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 5:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Being born as a human being or an animal (Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Dear Rob M & Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: robmoult [mailto:<>] > > It is our last thought moment that determines the > plane of rebirth. > If our last thought is with anger, we are reborn > in hell. If our > last thought is with lobha, then we are reborn as > a hungry ghost. > However, if our last thought is moha, then we are > reborn as an > animal. If we are last thought moment is > rootless, then we are born > as a handicapped human. With two roots, we are > born as a human but > cannot become enlightened. Since you have an > obvious interest in the > Dhamma and the Abhidhamma, I am sure that you > have three roots > (including wisdom) and therefore have the > potential to be be > enlightened. Devas and higher beings all have three roots. I would like to mention that for a non-arahant, all thought processes (javana) are all kusala or akusala, and hence are all rooted. This includes even the last javana process in any lifetime (as a non-arahat): only an arahat has rootless javana, and I believe only in the 5 sense doors and not the mind door. It is the resulted birth citta that can be rootless. Kusala rooteless birth vipaka is said to be possible in the human and the lowest plane of heaven, although the person will be born handicapped. Akusala rootless vipaka birth will be for all beings in the unhappy planes. > > The Buddha said that it was easier for a blind > tortise swimming in > the ocean to surface and happen to put his head > through the centre > of a ring of wood than to be born as a human. In > other words, in > your cycles of samsara, it is very rare that you > get a chance to be > born as a human. We shouldn't blow this limited > time opportunity by > sitting around and watching "The Flintstones". Thanks for the opportunity to go back to read the sutta. This exerpt is from Balapandita Sutta, Fools and Wise Men, MN 129, from B. Bodhi's translation: 23: "Bikkhus, I could tell you in many ways about the animal kingdom, so much so that it is hard to find a simile for the suffering in the animal kingdom." 24. "Suppose a man threw into the sea a yoke with one hole in it, and the east wind carried to the west, and the west wind carried it to the east, and the north wind carried it to the south, and the south wind carried it to the north. Suppose there were a blind turtle that came up once at the end of each century. What do you think, bhikkhus? Would that blind turtle put his neck into the yoke with one hole in it?" "He might, vernerable sir, sometime or other at the end of a long period." "Bhikkhus, the blind turtle would take less time to put his neck into that yoke with a single hole in it than a fool, once gone to perdition, would take to regain the human state, I say. Why is that? Because there is no practising of the Dhamma there, no practising of what is righteous, no doing of what is wholesome, no performance of merit. There mutual devouring prevails, and the slaughter of the weak." 25. "If, some time or other, at the end of a long period, that fool comes back to the human state, it is into a low family that he is reborn - into a family of outcasts or hunters or bamboo-workers or cartwrights or scanvengers - one that is poor with little to eat and drink, surviving with difficulty, where he scarcely finds food and clothing; and he is ugly, unsightly, and misshapen, sickly, blind, cripple-handed, lame, or paralysed; he gets no food, drink, clothes, vehicles, garlands, scents, and unguents, bed, lodging, and light; he misconducts himself in body, speech, and mind, and having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell. 26. Bhikkhus, suppose a gambler at the very first unlucky throw loses his child and his wife and all his property and furthermore goes into bondage himself, yet an unlucky throw such as that is negligible; it is a far more unlucky throw when a fool who misconducts himself in body, speech, and mind, on the dissolution of the boy, after death, reappears in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell. This is the complete perfection of the fool's grade. [Note that the time mentioned is for a fool (who misconducts in body, speech, and mind), who has gone to perdition, to regain human states] [Also note that the Buddha didn't mention being born in an unfortunate circumstances (such as being born in a situation where eating your peers are the only way to get food) as being excuse for commit more bad kamma!] > > Use this limited time to put the concepts in the > Dhamma into action > (Dana, Sila and Bhavana). I'm sorry for sounding > like a broken > record, but this is truly the core of what I believe. Sadhu. Anumodahana.... True death is happening every moment, and the parting of this life is only around the corner. We should be mindful of all kusala! kom 14638 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 6:05pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Being born as a human being or an animal / Kom Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > > Dear Kom, > > Thank you for your examples about animals > performing kusala deeds. I > also am aware of a dog locked inside with his > elderly owner, who > became too ill to move or call for help. For > very many days the dog > carried a cloth in his mouth to the toilet, > soaked it in water in the > bowl, and carried it back to its owner to suck > the moisture. This > saved the owners life. > That first level of enlightenment that ensures no > further birth in > sorrowful planes seems so hard to reach, so far > away ... I don't > judge anyone else, but my accumulations of kamma > (that I know of) are > stacked so high on the 'bad' side that even > thinking about it is > disheartening .... and it is scary. > I believe this is why people, after having listened to the Buddha's words, keeps in mind the dhamma, becomes courageous about the dhamma, and be cheerful about the dhamma. This is the only path, and we are stumbling right upon it. Sometimes when I am mindful (at any level!), I become so grateful for the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. The mindfulness wouldn't have been possible if I hadn't have listened. kom ps: Another story how people becomes cheerful of the dhamma. When Sumedha (the current Buddha) was predicted by the samma-sambuddha Dipankara (sp?) that in another 4 aeons 100,000 kappas, Sumedha would become a samma-sambuddha. The people who heard this prediction became very cheerful, for the thought that if it was not possible for them to reach englihtenment during the Buddha Dipankara's dispensation, in another 4 aeons and 100,000 kappas there would be another Buddha by the guide of whom they may have the opportunity to attain. I think we should be as cheerful. Only the greatest of the disciples take 100,000 kappas and over to become englightened: we most likely will take less, but it will be a long road, lighted by the Buddha's teachings, that we must brave. 14639 From: egberdina Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 8:25pm Subject: Ideas about birth and death (was, Re: Noosa weekend) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > Nice to see you back :-)). Hi Jon and anyone else who wants to join in, Thank you for your kindness. > > Just to supplement your comment that "my thoughts of birth and death are > based on the socially constructed and socially transmitted belief systems > of the groups I find myself in from time to time, not on experience", > there are of course one's observations of birth and death of others to add > into the mix, and I guess these count as 'experience' of some kind. > Yes, this is very true. I believe this is where kamma comes into play. Ostensibly, we all partake of a shared reality, but privately form quite different reactions. We all experience very different combinations of attachment, aversion, intentions and actions at the observation of the same birth or death. And then we have the similarly varying reactions to how we perceive the reactions of the group members etc etc etc. And despite all this there is still not an experience of birth or death of the self, in a conventional sense. > However, I think your point is that any ideas we may hold as to what if > anything precedes birth and follows death in this life are not > experience-based. This is undoubtedly so, as a general rule, and is a > useful reminder to have. There may be a tendency to try to 'correct' our > thinking on rebirth/kamma/superior being so that it accords with what we > find expressed in the teachings, and is therefore 'right', but this I > believe would be deluding ourselves on the matter. I agree wholeheartedly. > > By the way, I am not so sure that direct experience is necessarily > entirely lacking in the ideas we may hold. I believe the texts indicate > that beings born in some of the heavenly realms are able to recollect > their previous life as a human being. Likewise, in previous lives one may > have attained the jhanas together with powers of recollection of former > lives. You may well be right. Would this mean that sanna is carried over endlessly? The problem I have is that I even question memories from three days ago :-). Have you ever had that complete feeling of certainty about a recollection only to be convinced in the face of other evidence that it couldn't have been quite like that? The fact that I am raising these questions indicates that I do not have an absolute means of distinguishing between recollection and fabrication. Could ideas based on these episodes in your view be regarded as > experience-based? (I suppose it could be argued that to ask this question > is to make the very assumption that you are saying we need to question!) I find that a difficult and pertinent question, Jon, and not as a cop- out but to help me clarify my thinking, could I reply with a question? We all have at different times and in different degrees had inklings of annatta. At an intellectual level, I accept the doctrine of annatta without reservation. Yet often, very, very often there is the thought of I, not as a shorthand, conventional I, but as a substantial I. Is it possible to experience something that isn't there ie I? Or put differently, what is being experienced when one thinks I, be it now, or 1000 lives ago? > > Jon > All the best Herman 14640 From: Howard Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 4:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Moments before Death (was Being born as a human being or an animal Hi, Christine - In a message dated 8/1/02 4:40:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > And, with respect, I'll withhold comment on the others mentioned > in 'Some Strange Cases', and instead completely disagree that "A > pond heron or bittern, feeling pleasure from southern breeze at the > beginning of monsoon, becomes pregnant." .... at least, not the pond > herons I know .... :) > ============================= I find this case as having about the same level of plausibility as that of the Bhikkhuni. With metta, and not just a tad of cynicism, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14641 From: Howard Date: Thu Aug 1, 2002 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Moments before Death (was Being born as a human being or an animal Hi, Christine - In a message dated 8/1/02 4:40:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > > Hi Rob M, and All, > > I've read the chapters 8 & 9 you mentioned at > http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/Abhidhamma.htm > Just bear with me here Rob :) - I think I make the worst type of > student. if only I could just memorise and believe ... > > I have great difficulty with understanding that the last moment or > the last half hour of life has such incredible consequences. Many > people in this country die unexpectedly and unpredictably. (crime, > car accident, heart attack, stroke). It is not the custom to die at > home, so, of the remainder, most of us die after a long illness in > Hospital or Nursing Home, either unconscious or with consciousness > clouded by palliative drugs. Their deaths are not peaceful or aware. > I wonder what point there is in observing Precepts, trying to lead a > virtuous life, studying , or mental development if, in the end, the > Plane of Future Rebirth is decided by one's mood/thoughts just before > death? Anything can affect thought processes and emotions - it does > not necessarily follow that leading a good life makes for an easy, > calm death. Do you know of a reference to this 'importance of the > last moments' in the Suttas? I do understand (or rather, accept) > that kamma performed aeons back can loop in and come to fruition > anytime. However, the idea that altering the environment of a dying > person by moving them to a temple, or by perfuming the air, or > chanting can control the Rebirth destination is a harder thing to > accept..... Should we train Mood Enhancers rather than Pastoral Care > Workers? I know kamma is said to be blind in the sense of being > impartial and consistent, but surely....not so easily manipulated?... > Then again, I've always had difficulty understanding kamma - perhaps > I'm missing the point ... > > And, with respect, I'll withhold comment on the others mentioned > in 'Some Strange Cases', and instead completely disagree that "A > pond heron or bittern, feeling pleasure from southern breeze at the > beginning of monsoon, becomes pregnant." .... at least, not the pond > herons I know .... :) > > metta, > Christine > > ============================= I empathize with your feeling of "unfairness" in this matter. Of course, conditionality is neither fair nor unfair, but merely lawful matter of fact. Here are a couple thoughts: To put matters in some perspective, what we do at the present moment frequently has the chief effect on what happens to us next. A couple weeks ago I was momentarily distracted (very briefly) and was in an auto accident. Now, I had been quite attentive all the rest of that day, but ... ;-)). Also, one other point: There is said to be "offsetting kamma" which may have the effect of moderating the effect of death consciousness (for good or ill). For example, a kusala last thought might result in a human birth, but other ripening kamma might lead to being born into a poor family or being born into a brief lifetime filled with illness or other problems. Or, an akusala last thought might result in a feline birth, but other ripening kamma might lead to being born as a pampered house cat. There *are* suttas about this, though I can't recall a reference. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha and Vipassana Dear Rob K and all, Rob K wrote: For myself although I sound like I give vipassana priority - >> and, at least in theory, do - I can't avoid having samatha. I >> find maranasati(mindfulness of >> death) can go hand in hand with vipassana . It is not an >> essential but it leans the mind in the direction of impermanence >> and gives urgency, it has been like my best friend over many >> years. Nina: I would like to add something to mindfulness of death, taken from A. Sujin's perfections: Best wishes from Nina. 14643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 1:02am Subject: Mindfulness of Breathing, second tetrad. Dear friends, now we come to the second tetrad, group of four, of the sutta on Mindfulness of Breathing, the Visuddhimagga comments upon: V) He trains thus ; he trains thus . (VI) He trains thus ; he trains thus . (VII) He trains thus ; he trains thus . (VIII) He trains thus ; he trains thus . As regards the second tetrad (marked V-VIII), the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 226) comments: (V) He trains thus , that is, making happiness (píti, also translated as rapture) known, making it plain. Herein, the happiness is experienced in two ways: (a) with the object, and (b) with non-confusion. As regards , the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced with the object? He attains the two jhĺnas in which happiness (píti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the jhĺna, because of the experiencing of the object. After the jhĺnacitta has fallen away pańńĺ realizes the characteristic of píti as it is: only a kind of nĺma, which is impermanent and not self. We read: ŠHow with non-confusion? When, after entering upon and emerging from one of the two jhĺnas accompanied by píti, he comprehends with insight that happiness associated with the jhĺna as liable to destruction and fall, then at the actual time of insight the happiness is experienced with non-confusion owing to the penetration of its characteristics (of impermanence, and so on). In a similar way the words of the second tetrad are explained: (VI) I shall breathe inŠbreathe out experiencing bliss (sukha, pleasant feeling)Š Sukha occurs in three stages of jhĺna (of the fourfold system); it does not arise in the highest stage of jhĺna where there is equanimity instead of sukha. Sukha accompanies the jhĺnacitta of the three stages of jhĺna and is, after the jhĺnacitta has fallen away, realized by pańńĺ as impermanent. The realization of the characteristic of impermanence can only occur when the stages of insight knowledge have been developed, beginning with tender insight, as I said before. Thus both jhana and insight are have been developed here. The Vis. VIII, 229, explains that mental formation pertains here to feeling and perception, sanna. The Vis. gives in this passage more word meanings and quotes the Path of Discrimination. The Vis. adds that this tetrad deals with the contemplation of feeling. It is evident that the person who develops jhana must have strong sati and panna (of the level of samatha) to discern exactly cetasikas such as piti and sukha accompanying the jhanacitta, and after emerging from jhana to comprehend them as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Best wishes from Nina. 14644 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 1:02am Subject: Perfections, ch 3, no 8 Perfections, ch 3, no 8. One should not associate with people who have wrong view. People who do not understand which cause brings which effect, may cling to superstitious omens. They may listen to the Dhamma and have confidence in it, but if they are not firmly established in their confidence of the true Dhamma they may still be carried away by superstitious believes and lack understanding of cause and effect. Síla is twofold: as avoidance (vĺritta) and as performance (cĺritta). Síla as avoidance is abstaining from evil. Síla as performance is the right conduct one should follow. We may abstain from akusala and not transgress the precepts, but with regard to síla as performance (cĺritta), we should consider the Bodhisattaąs conduct, so that we shall further develop kusala. We read further on: Herein, at the appropriate time, a bodhisattva practises salutation, rising up, giving respectful greetings (ańjali), and observing courteous conduct towards good friends worthy of reverence. At the appropriate time he renders them service, and he waits upon them when they are sick. When he receives well-spoken advice he expresses his appreciation. He praises the noble qualities of the virtuous and patiently endures the abuse of antagonists. He remembers help rendered to him by others, rejoices in their merits, dedicates his own merits to the supreme enlightenment, and always abides diligently in the practice of wholesome states. When he commits a transgression he acknowledges it as such and confesses it to his co-religionists. Afterwards he perfectly fulfils the right practice. He is adroit and nimble in fulfilling his duties towards beings when these are conducive to their good. He serves as their companion. When beings are afflicted with the suffering of disease, etc., he prepares the appropriate remedy. He dispels the sorrow of those afflicted by the loss of wealth, etc.- Of a helpful disposition, he restrains with Dhamma those who need to be restrained, rehabilitates them from unwholesome ways, and establishes them in wholesome courses of conduct. He inspires with Dhamma those in need of inspiration. And when he hears about the loftiest, most difficult, inconceivably powerful deeds of the great bodhisattvas of the past, issuing in the ultimate welfare and happiness of beings, by means of which they reached perfect maturity in the requisites of enlightenment, he does not become agitated and alarmed, but reflects: Then, with unflagging energy preceded by this faith, he perfectly fulfils the training in virtue, etc. 14645 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 5:06am Subject: RE: [dsg] Moments before Death (was Being born as a human being or an animal Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > Hi Rob M, and All, > > I've read the chapters 8 & 9 you mentioned at > http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/Abhidhamma.htm > Just bear with me here Rob :) - I think I make the worst type of > student. if only I could just memorise and believe ... > > I have great difficulty with understanding that the last moment or > the last half hour of life has such incredible consequences. Many > people in this country die unexpectedly and unpredictably. (crime, > car accident, heart attack, stroke). It is not the custom to die at > home, so, of the remainder, most of us die after a long illness in > Hospital or Nursing Home, either unconscious or with consciousness > clouded by palliative drugs. Their deaths are not peaceful or aware. > I wonder what point there is in observing Precepts, trying to lead a > virtuous life, studying , or mental development if, in the end, the > Plane of Future Rebirth is decided by one's mood/thoughts just before > death? Anything can affect thought processes and emotions - it does > not necessarily follow that leading a good life makes for an easy, > calm death. Do you know of a reference to this 'importance of the > last moments' in the Suttas? I do understand (or rather, accept) > that kamma performed aeons back can loop in and come to fruition > anytime. However, the idea that altering the environment of a dying > person by moving them to a temple, or by perfuming the air, or > chanting can control the Rebirth destination is a harder thing to > accept..... Should we train Mood Enhancers rather than Pastoral Care > Workers? I know kamma is said to be blind in the sense of being > impartial and consistent, but surely....not so easily manipulated?... > Then again, I've always had difficulty understanding kamma - perhaps > I'm missing the point ... > Before Rob M comes back we a more researched answer, let me add some points to the discussions. 1) There are many stories in the tipitakas about the potency of the last moments in life in term of influencing the birth of next life, from both good and bad perspective. a) A man lived a heedless life and was finally sentenced to be executed. Before he died, he gave dana to Maha-mogallana. As a result of that gift, he was born a deva. b) A monk lived a virtuous life and was on the path of the growth of wisdom, before he died, he committed a small infraction of the monk's rules. As a result, he was born a powerful naga who lived long enough to see another Buddha, but who couldn't develop more wisdom as a naga. c) A monk lived a virtuous life. Before he died, he worried about the clothing that he was wearing which he had attachment to. He was born a bug living in that clothing. d) 500 bats, as a result of listening to the chanting of abhidhamma, were reborn in heaven. 2) All the things that you mention that can be used as "preparation" props before death can all be objects of lobha, dosa, and moha. They don't guarantee a good rebirth for everybody, but may for some with the right accumulations. 3) If you notice about the influences of dhamma in general, something close to now has very powerful effects on now. A bad angry exchange may disturb you for the entire day even though you may have been at peace for the last 3 weeks. We see how people who have accumulated great wisdom can become influenced by the wrong views of a particular life because of bad friend(s). 4) As Howard says, Kamma isn't exactly fair, except from the standpoint that good kamma gives good results, and bad kamma gives bad results. On the other hand, the results depend on all kinds of other factors including whether or not one has attained, the environment, the time, etc... However, this is how nature works... 5) If you are confident that being on the right path (magga) will one day bring you to the destination you wish to reach (nibbana), despite the lengthy period of time that may be required, kamma is also thus. You can't control when the dhamma is going to arise: it arises when its conditions are fulfilled... kom 14646 From: Howard Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections, ch 3, no 8 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/1/02 1:04:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > One should not associate with people who have wrong view. ========================== But inasmuch as most of us, to some extent or other, have wrong view, would this not lead to a psychological dissociative state? ;-)) More seriously, the statement, is, of course, generally a truism, but inasmuch as we can't be all so certain as to how "right minded" we are, ourselves, perhaps we shouldn't be too *quick* to judge the views of others. Sometimes we can pass over gems that we mistake for dirty rocks. I've certainly had that experience with people and their views. If we keep our wits about us, there are, I think, things to learn from the most implausible sources. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14647 From: <> Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 6:36am Subject: ADL ch. 18 (4) Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 18 (4) In the 'Discourse on the Manyfold Elements' (Middle Length Sayings III, 115) we read that the Buddha, while he was staying in the Jeta Grove, in Anathapindika's monastery, said to the monks that fears, troubles and misfortunes occur to the fool, not to the wise man. He said to the monks: '...Monks, there is not fear, trouble, misfortune for the wise man. Wherefore, monks, thinking, 'Investigating, we will become wise', this is how you must train yourselves, monks.' When this had been said, the venerable Ananda spoke thus to the Lord: 'What is the stage at which it suffices to say, revered sir: 'Investigating, the monk is wise'?' 'Ananda, as soon as a monk is skilled in the elements and skilled in the (sense) fields and skilled in conditioned genesis and skilled in the possible and the impossible, it is at this stage, Ananda, that it suffices to say, 'Investigating, the monk is wise.'' 'But, revered sir, at what stage does it suffice to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements'?' 'There are these eighteen elements, Ananda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mind-objects, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ananda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements.' ' 'Might there be another way also, revered sir, according to which it suffices to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements'?' 'There might be, Ananda. There are these six elements, Ananda: the element of extension, the element of cohesion, the element of radiation, the element of mobility, the element of space, the element of consciousness. When, Ananda, he knows and sees these six elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements.'' 'Might there be another way also, revered sir, according to which it suffices to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements'?' 'There might be, Ananda. There are these six elements, Ananda: the element of happiness, the element of anguish, the element of gladness, the element of sorrowing, the element of equanimity, the element of ignorance. When, Ananda, he knows and sees these six elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements.'' The Buddha then explained still other ways of being skilled in the elements and further on we read that Ananda asked again : 'Might there be another way also, revered sir, according to which it suffices to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements'?' 'There might be, Ananda. There are these two elements, Ananda: the element that is constructed and the element that is unconstructed. When, Ananda, he knows and sees these two elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, 'The monk is skilled in the elements. The element which is constructed is all conditioned realities (the five khandhas), and the element which is unconstructed is nibbana. Also nibbana is an element, it is devoid of self. Nibbana is not a person, it is anatta. We read in this sutta about the monk who knows and sees the elements. Knowing and seeing the elements does not mean only knowing them in theory and thinking about them. One knows and sees the elements when panna realizes nama and rupa as they are: only elements, not self. This knowledge will lead to the end of 'fears, troubles and misfortunes'. Questions 1. When realities are classified as eighteen elements, what element is cetasika? 2. Which paramattha dhammas are vinnana-dhatu (consciousness-element)? 3. Is mano-vinnana-dhatu (mind-consciousness-element) included in vinnana-dhatu? 4. Through how many doors does mano-dhatu experience an object? 5. Why is also nibbana an element? 14648 From: robmoult Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 6:55am Subject: Perspective on Death (Part I) Hi Christine, Imagine you go for a casual stroll to the store. It is a ten minute walk and on average you take one step each two seconds (you walk slowly). By the time you reach the store, you have taken about 300 steps. During your walk, some of these 300 steps were directed exactly towards the store, some of the steps were in the general direction of the store and some of the steps may have actually been in the opposite direction of the store (you got distracted by something and backtracked a bit). At the end of your journey, you reached the store because you had an overall pattern to your movement, though that pattern may not have been apparent if you only focused on the direction of one step and then the way you face before taking the next step. Your postings seem to focus on your current step and the step immediately in front of you. Earlier, we chatted about going for refuge. Let me try and link these concepts together using a passage from Bhikkhu Bodhi's book "Going for Refuge, Taking the Precepts". To bring out the significance of going for refuge we can consider a contrast between two individuals: "Mr. A" meticulously observes the moral principles embedded in the five precepts. He does not formally undertake the precepts in the context of Buddhist ethical practice but spontaneously conforms to the standards of conduct they enjoin through his own innate sense of right and wrong; that is, he follows them as part of natural morality. He practices meditation several hours a day, but does this not in the framework of the Dhamma but simply as a means to enjoy peace of mind here and now. This person has met the Buddha's teaching, appreciates it and respects it, but does not feel sufficiently convinced to acknowledge its truth or find himself impelled to go for refuge. "Mr. B's" circumstances prevent perfect observance of the precepts and cannot find time for practicing meditation. Though he lacks these achievements, from the depths of his heart, with full sincerity, understanding and dedication of purpose he has gone for refuge to the Triple Gem. Comparing these two persons we can ask whose mental attitude is of greater long-term spiritual value. No clear pronouncement on this case is found in the Suttas and commentaries, but enough indication is given to support an intelligent guess. On this basis we would say that the mental attitude of the Mr. B, who has gone for refuge with clear understanding and sincerity of heart, is of greater long-term spiritual value. [Christine, note that the focus here is on long- term value, not merely the benefits in this life or the life just following this one.] As a result of his moral and meditative practices, Mr. A will enjoy peace and happiness in his present life and will have a favorable rebirth in the future. However, when that merit ripens, it will become exhausted without leading to further spiritual development. When the fortunate rebirth resulting from the merit comes to an end, it will be followed by rebirth in some other plane, as determined by stored-up kamma, and the person will continue to revolve in the cycle of existence. His virtuous undertakings do not contribute directly to the transcending of samsara. Mr. B, the person who has sincerely gone for refuge to the Triple Gem without being capable of higher practices, still lays the foundation for spiritual progress in future lives by his heartfelt act of seeking refuge. He has to reap the results of his kamma and cannot escape them by taking refuge, but the mental act of going for refuge, if it is truly the focus of his inner life, becomes a powerful positive kamma in itself. It will function as a link tending to bring him into connection with the Dhamma in future lives, thereby aiding his chances for further progress until he eventually reaches the goal. Since this all comes about through the germination of that mental act of going for refuge, we can understand that the taking of refuge is very essential. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14649 From: robmoult Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 7:09am Subject: Thanks for the input on Metta Based on your input, I added the following to my notes: - Caution not to confuse metta with its near enemy, lobha - Caution that whenever we think of other people (even with metta), there is a risk of comparison (conceit) - Habits become spontaneous (unprompted) and therefore of greater kammic weight Your feedback included many references to anatta and mindfulness of the present moment. When I tried to work these concepts into the material, the flavour changed dramatically from practical to philosophical and I am concerned that this may generate confusion and cause people not to grasp the main messages regarding metta. In fact, I could probably weave anatta and mindfulness of the present moment into almost every talk I give. I am concerned, however, that if I were to do this, it would confuse the audience and they would be distracted from whatever concept I was presenting. I am thinking that the best approach might be to not include anatta or mindfulness of the present moment in every talk, but at some point have one or two lectures dedicated to each of these topics and during those lectures, go back and show how anatta and mindfulness of the present moment touches all other aspects. Comments? Thanks, Rob M :-) 14650 From: azita gill Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 8:12am Subject: RE: [dsg] Being born as a human being or an animal / Kom --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Christine, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth > > > > > Dear Kom, > > > > Thank you for your examples about animals > > performing kusala deeds. > > > I think we should be as cheerful. Only the greatest > of the > disciples take 100,000 kappas and over to become > englightened: we most likely will take less, but it > will be > a long road, lighted by the Buddha's teachings, that > we must > brave. > > Dear Chris, Kom and others, < I found this is my little book of 'jottings' during the time of listening to Ven. Dhammadharo. < ' Why be afraid of death and rebirth - is there not death and rebirth at every moment of citta, and does not rupa arise and fall awayalmost as quickly as nama. < so it was said by the wholly Enlightened One regarding someone who hears and understands dhamma as it is taught by the Tathagata:- 'but it does not occur to him thus: I will surely be annihilated, I will surely be destroyed, I will surely not be. So he/she does not fall into disillusionment, he/she does grieve, mourn, lament, he/she does not beat his/her breast. Thus does there come to be no aniexty about something subjective that does not exist.' < Not self for 4 reasons: < because it is empty; has no owner; has no master; and because it is the opposite of self. < [from Majjhima-Nikaya] < be patient, be brave and have good cheer,< Azita > > > > 14651 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 9:43am Subject: Re: Samatha and Vipassana --- "rikpa21" wrote: > this portion of Buddhagosa's > Visuddhimagga VII.211: > > "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only > in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any other meditation > subect other than [anapanasati] gets more evident as he goes on > giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is > difficult, difficut to develop, a field in which only the minds of > Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and Buddhas' sons are at home. It is no > trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial people. In > proportion as continued attention is given to it, it becomes more > peaceful and more subtle. So strong mindfulness and understanding > are necessary here." > > One important question: how do you interpret "Buddhas' sons"? That > could be interpretreted as anyone who's gone for refuge at all! Once > one has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, then > in my book, at least, that qualifies one as a "Buddha's son or > daughter." > _________________ Dear Erik, I think it is clear that the Buddha's sons means Mahapurisa, those with great accumulations. When you look at the other 37 objects of samatha in the Visuddhimagga you will see that only anapanasati is singled out for this special attention. I think we see that anapanasati is the samatha object that even the Buddha's use on the eve of their attainment, it is such a wonderful object for those who can develop it. But that doesn't mean it is easy. From visuddimagga 211 viii the pali: Ki~ncaapi hi ya.mki~nci kamma.t.thaana.m satassa sampajaanasseva sampajjati. Ito a~n~na.m pana manasikarontassa paaka.ta.m hoti. Ida.m pana aanaapaanassatikamma.t.thaana.m garuka.m garukabhaavana.m buddhapaccekabuddhabuddhaputtaana.m mahaapurisaa na.myeva manasikaarabhuumibhuuta.m, na ceva ittara.m, na ca ittarasattasamaasevita.m. Yathaa yathaa manasi kariiyati, tathaa tathaa santa ~nceva hoti sukhuma~nca. Tasmaa ettha balavatii sati ca pa~n~naa ca icchitabbaa. =============== It is actually a stock phrase in the commentaries with regard to anapanasati. E.g: Patisambhidhimagga -atthakatha anapanassatikatha and in the Commentary to vinaya Parajika khanda attakatha . There are other places too. Some people get offended that anyone should point out the difficulty of anapanasati and think this is disparagement. However, it is helpful for peolple who may have been using this object and have not had success as then they may consider that other objects are also recommended by the Buddha, and these may be more suitable. For those that use anapanasati and are successful then they need no further help, of course. The Netti-pakarana (587) "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details. Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight. Nevertheless all types of kusala - of which samatha is one of the highest- should be developed as all kusala assists insight. Robert 14652 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 10:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Noosa weekend Hi all, I am posting this from a public library in suburban Brisbane where I have booked the email computer for half an hour. There are over two hundred messages to be read but, sneaking a look ahead, I am pleased to see that Jon and Sarah have arrived safely back in Hong Kong. Also, my old friend Andrew has emerged from the cyber shadows. The Noosa dsg meeting was excellent. It is a rare privilege to talk [in real time], to people who have a firm grasp of the Dhamma. Admittedly, it can be a bit nerve-racking if one wants to appear more knowledgable than one is -- confusion between realities and concepts just can't be concealed. Encouraged to ask and answer questions without notice, I sometimes wondered whether I had acquired any understanding at all. But that is to be expected. After so many years of trying to practice satipatthana with the idea of a self who can control and direct mindfulness, it is only natural that confusion should arise. We don't change our ways overnight. My parents are convalescing well, so I will soon be home again and back to my profuse message-sending ways :-) Kind regards Ken H 14653 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 2:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Hi Kom, I got a little behind while we were away but have particularly enjoyed the correspondence with VTK which you shared. You wrote: “I forwarded the following post to a friend recently. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14299 I got a response, to which I responded. I am wondering about how to answer my own questions. So, 1) Any comments about the exchange will be appreciated 2) Answers to the questions will be appreciated.” ***** I thought your comments and questions were very helpful indeed, Kom. A recurring theme -- which Erik and Rob M have mentioned recently as well -- is the difficulty of developing understanding and awareness of realities, now, in daily life and perhaps a lack of confidence that this is possible without some training under specific conditions with fewer distractions. Of course, the Buddha never said the Path was easy. However, when we -- or rather panna -- begins to see that the different situations are only concepts and that there are only ever the realities conditioned at the present moment to be known, regardless of whether we’re sitting at the computer, sitting on the bus or sitting on a cushion, slowly it will become apparent that wishing for a different reality or thinking another time would be more opportune, will merely lead one away from this Path. When there is the idea that there should be concentration on a particular object first or that the reality now is ‘too hard’, is there any understanding of conditioned dhammas, of elements which are anatta at this moment? Thinking is real, doubt is real, worry is real and so is the seeing, visible object, hardness, sound and other realities just as they are now. Even whilst being involved in an accident or forgetting the time after looking at our watch (very familiar) or being distracted in a noisy coffee shop, there are realities conditioned just as they are already. I found this quote from the recent extract from ADL very helpful. the more understanding there is of ‘elements’, the less clinging, worry and fear there will be to the past or future, such as to past kamma or future births. The self we take as being so precious only consists of different elements at this moment: ***** “Not only the body, but also the mind should be considered as elements. There is nothing in our life which is not an element. Our past lives were only elements and our future lives will only be elements. We are inclined to think of our future life and wish for a happy rebirth. We should, however, realize that there is no self which in the future will have another existence; there are and will be only elements. We have learned to classify citta in different ways and this reminds us that cittas are only elements. Not only cittas are elements, but cetasikas too are elements. We are attached to happy feeling and we dislike unpleasant feeling. Feelings, however, are only elements, which arise because of conditions. When we are tired or sick we take tiredness and sickness for self and we have aversion. Why do we not accept unpleasant things as they come to us, since they are only elements? One might not be inclined to see realities as elements, but it is the truth. One might not like to remember that things are impermanent, that birth is followed by ageing, sickness and death, but it is the truth. Why do we not want to see the truth?” ***** “Why do we not want to see the truth?” Good question. We may be interested in mindfulness of breath at another time, but now we can reflect on how everything we are attached to in life -- our family, our friends, our home, even our study of dhamma -- just depends on this very breath. If there is no breath, then everything is lost. This reflection now can be a condition for calm, for a moment of samatha or even a moment of direct understanding of elements. There cannot be wise attention at any other time. Finally, let me requote just one paragraph full of useful reminders for me from your post: ***** KT] “One cannot reach nibbana without the practice (pati-pati), but the question that I think is of paramount importance is what is the right practice? If we have the wrong pratice, there is no progress, and we accumulate more inclinations to do even more of the wrong practice in the future. If we have the right practice, then wisdom will develop, and wisdom develops very slowly. You may notice that in order to become a Buddha, the boddhisatta had to develop the 10 perfections (including wisdom) for 4 aeons. That, in our time frame, is *very* slow. A disciple of the Buddha will not take as long, but it would be in numerous lifetimes. If we are focused on making "progress", we may be lured into doing the wrong pratice because we hope that the wrong practice may allow us to develop faster. For me, ensuring/verifying that something is the right practice is very important because the right practice is the only way that we may progress in the path.” ***** With thanks to you and VTK for the helpful correspondence (and also to Larry for bravely answering your qus as well;-)) Sarah ===== 14654 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for the input on Metta Hi Rob M, --- robmoult wrote > > Your feedback included many references to anatta and mindfulness of > the present moment. When I tried to work these concepts into the > material, the flavour changed dramatically from practical to > philosophical and I am concerned that this may generate confusion > and cause people not to grasp the main messages regarding metta. > > In fact, I could probably weave anatta and mindfulness of the > present moment into almost every talk I give. I am concerned, > however, that if I were to do this, it would confuse the audience > and they would be distracted from whatever concept I was presenting. ..... Just speaking for myself and any input I ever give, pls don’t think I’m suggesting any change or direction for your presentation or talk or even writing anytime. I’m merely attempting to discuss aspects of the dhamma with you for our mutual consideration and benefit. How this is reflected (or whether it is reflected at all) for your audience is quite another issue and I’m sure you have a far more accurate idea of what is applicable or appropriate. The more understanding is developed by us all here, the more we will be able to help others according to our skills and talents, I believe. ..... > > I am thinking that the best approach might be to not include anatta > or mindfulness of the present moment in every talk, but at some > point have one or two lectures dedicated to each of these topics and > during those lectures, go back and show how anatta and mindfulness > of the present moment touches all other aspects. > > Comments? ..... As Christine has suggested, all topics relate to all others, but any talk or presentation has to be limited and you have to consider what is most helpful for your audience. After all, you want to encourage and not deter them from returning to hear more;-)) I think your suggestion to “go back and show how anatta and mindfulness of the present moment touches all other aspects” at some stage is a really good one......Perhaps if we keep discussing this area, by the time you get to it in the lectures, you and your audience will really be ready for the ‘essence’ of the Teachings. Let us know how it goes and thanks for sharing metta and khanti. I’ll look f/w to seeing your outline for the next topic. Best wishes, Sarah ===== 14655 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 3:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ideas about birth and death (was, Re: Noosa weekend) --- egberdina wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Herman > > > > Nice to see you back :-)). > > Hi Jon and anyone else who wants to join in, > > Thank you for your kindness. > > > > > > Just to supplement your comment that "my thoughts of birth and > death are > > based on the socially constructed and socially transmitted belief > systems > > of the groups I find myself in from time to time, not on > experience", > > there are of course one's observations of birth and death of others > to add > > into the mix, and I guess these count as 'experience' of some kind. > > > > Yes, this is very true. I believe this is where kamma comes into > play. Ostensibly, we all partake of a shared reality, but privately > form quite different reactions. We all experience very different > combinations of attachment, aversion, intentions and actions at the > observation of the same birth or death. And then we have the > similarly varying reactions to how we perceive the reactions of the > group members etc etc etc. And despite all this there is still not an > experience of birth or death of the self, in a conventional sense. > > > > However, I think your point is that any ideas we may hold as to > what if > > anything precedes birth and follows death in this life are not > > experience-based. This is undoubtedly so, as a general rule, and > is a > > useful reminder to have. There may be a tendency to try > to 'correct' our > > thinking on rebirth/kamma/superior being so that it accords with > what we > > find expressed in the teachings, and is therefore 'right', but this > I > > believe would be deluding ourselves on the matter. > > I agree wholeheartedly. > > > > > By the way, I am not so sure that direct experience is necessarily > > entirely lacking in the ideas we may hold. I believe the texts > indicate > > that beings born in some of the heavenly realms are able to > recollect > > their previous life as a human being. Likewise, in previous lives > one may > > have attained the jhanas together with powers of recollection of > former > > lives. > > You may well be right. Would this mean that sanna is carried over > endlessly? The problem I have is that I even question memories from > three days ago :-). Have you ever had that complete feeling of > certainty about a recollection only to be convinced in the face of > other evidence that it couldn't have been quite like that? The fact > that I am raising these questions indicates that I do not have an > absolute means of distinguishing between recollection and fabrication. > > Could ideas based on these episodes in your view be regarded as > > experience-based? (I suppose it could be argued that to ask this > question > > is to make the very assumption that you are saying we need to > question!) > > I find that a difficult and pertinent question, Jon, and not as a cop- > out but to help me clarify my thinking, could I reply with a question? > > We all have at different times and in different degrees had inklings > of annatta. At an intellectual level, I accept the doctrine of > annatta without reservation. Yet often, very, very often there is the > thought of I, not as a shorthand, conventional I, but as a > substantial I. Is it possible to experience something that isn't > there ie I? Or put differently, what is being experienced when one > thinks I, be it now, or 1000 lives ago? Hi Herman. I think it's just the familiar feeling of self, the thought of self, self-concept arising with various associations. The point I think is not that there is not a sense of self, but that this sense is an illusion. If one did not have the feeling that something substantial was being referenced when saying 'me', 'self', or one's name, then it wouldn't be an illusion. What makes the snake an illusion is that it really seems like a snake, but is actually a rope. Seeming does not make it real. Robert Ep. 14656 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 3:37pm Subject: Valuable lesson because of a photo Dear All, Thanks for your posts, very helpful, and I'm getting round to replying. I've been caught up with happenings off-list ... Remember the old saying 'Pride goes before a fall'? At the end of the Noosa weekend, I said that I thought I had benefited from all the Dhamma discussions and reflections, and was certain that I was much calmer, that the tides of emotional reactions were a little more under control, perhaps a thing of the past .... On Monday, when happily chatting with Jon and Sarah at Brisbane Airport, Azita gave me a precious photo of the Venerables Guttasila, Dhammadharo, Jetananda, Sundoro, and Philip (whose Pali name can't presently be remembered). The Photo was taken at Dhamma discussions in Kandy, Sri Lanka, in April 1977. She had had it for 25 years. I was conscious of its preciousness and Azita's trust, and put it safely in my handbag. Shortly after, Jon and Sarah departed, Azita and I walked to the footpath and were collected by SarahF. We dropped Azita at the Domestic Terminal to return to Cairns, and then went to SarahF's apartment - 20 minutes away. Before getting out of the car, I said I'd show her the photo of the Monks. It wasn't found...... "Don't panic" said SarahF, "it has to be here". The bag, the car, pockets, baggage were all turned upside down several times. It still wasn't found .... Rather high speed trip back to the airport (Chris stressing out, SarahF telling her how, wtih a little 'common sense', it could have been prevented from happening - where does she get all this from!? Including describing her distressed mother as 'a silly duffer' and that I was 'making a pork chop of myself' - if you're not Australian, I'm not explaining), retracing steps, frantic search on and under tables, and feverish digging in rubbish bins (disdainful looks from passing travellers). Nothing. Phone calls to coffee shops and stores in the area, Sympathy from the Cleaning Service. Decided to post a $100.00 reward for finding the photo. Sympathy plus Interest from the Cleaning Service.... Knew I had to tell Azita soon. A day of hoping, waiting, checking the answering machine... Nothing. Knew I had to tell Azita VERY soon. Received an email from SarahA saying she had a similar, but not exact photo, and would copy it and send it by mail. This seemed a good time to tell Azita. She was truly marvellous. I was amazed at her calm and lovely attitude. I learned so much from her reaction - it particularly the difference between dhamma discussion and dhamma study and actually Practicing and Integrating Dhamma teachings into daily life. She was actually concerned for me (!)....said not to worry, it didn't matter, it was all just an example of anicca, that now she didn't have the anxiety about losing the photo through some other means e.g. fading, damage from cyclones etc. - and that in reality there's no me, there's no you and there's no photo, just nama and rupa arising and falling away. She said to imagine someone finding it and it being a condition for him/her to seek out the Dhamma. One of the few times that I've been speechless. Thanks for the great lesson Azita. much metta and gratitude, Chris p.s. THE PHOTO turned up today, after being 'lost' for four days.... In The Handbag, in an address book that had been search, flipped through and shaken a dozen times by three or four people. I'll post it soon. C. 14657 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Valuable lesson because of a photo --- christine_forsyth wrote: > p.s. THE PHOTO turned up today, after being 'lost' for four days.... > In The Handbag, in an address book that had been search, flipped > through and shaken a dozen times by three or four people. I'll post > it soon. C. .........and compared to that other 'stowaway', this was a pretty quick reappearance;-) Azita, many thanks for your fine examples of helpful speech and consideration for others. I can still hear you saying on the beach (and meaning it) "well, I'm happy to be a second class citizen because there's seeing, hearing and so on, so it really doesn't matter at all".(or sth along those lines when we were discussing the role of women in the Sangha). Rob K, we realize all photos are passing elements, but we're still hoping Yoko will stay a little longer and we promise not hold her responsible for any extra days you stay in Japan;-) Perhaps she can join you and the rest of us on DSG when you're away. For any other photos that take a wander out of the album or any members who are still feeling shy, we hope to see you there soon;-) Sarah ====== 14658 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Hi Larry, op 01-08-2002 01:33 schreef <> op <>: > Hi Nina, I wonder about this line: > > "Concentration (samadhi) has nondistraction as its characteristic." > > Is any state of mind that is not distracted considered to be in samadhi? > Everyone throughout the day performs many tasks, physical and > conceptual, with nondistraction. Is that considered samadhi? N: Concentration is ekaggata cetasika, one-pointedness, arising with each citta, and its function is focussing on the object citta experiences. Samadhi is another term for this cetasika. In the development of samatha the term samadhi is used, but in that case it is samma-samadhi, right concentration, which accompanies kusala citta. Actually there is right concentration with each kusala citta, but in samatha when calm is developed with the meditation subject, concentration also develops, so that it can become access concentration and attainment concentration accompanying the jhanacitta. There is also miccha samadhi, wrong concentration. When we use the term distraction in conventional sense, there is ekaggata cetasika accompanying the akusala citta, and it can be called wrong concentration. We can also speak of non-distraction (again conventionally speaking) in performing tasks, but when these tasks are done with akusala citta there is wrong concentration. L: If one > listens to the dhamma with concentration free from the hindrances > (sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness, and doubt) is > that samadhi? N: It is samma samadhi accompanying kusala citta and it can even accompany citta with a high degree of calm. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Book II< Ch IV, §8): Note: it is the noble person who has attained enlightenment and who has as object Recollection of the Dhamma while he listens to it. As Rob K. explained, there are objects of samatha for daily life. I find this subject most beneficial. L:What is samadhi, or what is distraction on the level of > citta process? What is the difference between concentration and > compaction? N: See above. Even when we are in conventional sense distracted there is still ekaggata cetasika or samadhi performing its function of focussing on the object at that moment. I do not know what compaction is. L: Also what makes samadhi lokuttara (supramundane)? N: Samma samadhi accompanying lokuttara citta is concentration which can be compared with the intensity of concentration accompanying jhanacitta. The object is nibbana whereas for mundane jhana the object is the meditation subject. L:My guess is the > general theme "less is better" or the three characteristics (anicca, > dukkha, anatta). >N: I do not understand what you mean. In order to attain enlightenment the three characteristics have to be realized. Best wishes, Nina. > > 14659 From: <> Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 5:17am Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /Class Notes 0802.pdf Uploaded by : robmoult Description : Abhidhamma Class Notes 08/02 You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Class%20Notes%200802.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, robmoult 14660 From: robmoult Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 5:27am Subject: Class Notes on-line! Hi All, I got permission from Jon and Sarah to upload my current set of Class Notes into the "Files" section of this discussion group. This is work in progress as I am only half way through the course. Each week I cover a new topic in the class which focuses on applying Abhidhamma in daily life (with a focus on daily life). There are a number of things that I plan to change, and I am looking for YOUR input in the following areas: - Are there any inaccuracies (most important issue) - Can you recommend additional (short) pieces that could be added - Any other suggestions for improvements Thanks, Rob M :-) 14661 From: robmoult Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thanks for the input on Metta Hi Sarah, --- Sarah wrote: > Just speaking for myself and any input I ever give, pls don't think I'm > suggesting any change or direction for your presentation or talk or even > writing anytime. I'm merely attempting to discuss aspects of the dhamma > with you for our mutual consideration and benefit. How this is reflected > (or whether it is reflected at all) for your audience is quite another > issue and I'm sure you have a far more accurate idea of what is applicable > or appropriate. The more understanding is developed by us all here, the > more we will be able to help others according to our skills and talents, I > believe. > ..... When I solicit input and somebody volunteers their valuable time to reply, I feel the least that I can do is to let them know that their feedback was appreciated and seriously considered. Thanks, Rob :-) 14662 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 6:24am Subject: Re: Class Notes on-line! Hi Rob M, I tried to read the file you have posted, with only partial success. Initially, I got a black screen saying "Could not find ColorSpace named 'Cs6', and could find nothing up to page 19, then variable results up to page 70. There was a frequent error message saying "There was an error procesing a page. A font contains a bad CMap/encoding" It was O.K. from page 70 to page 115. Is this my computer's problem (most likely), or the file, or something else? <>. metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > I got permission from Jon and Sarah to upload my current set of > Class Notes into the "Files" section of this discussion group. > > This is work in progress as I am only half way through the course. > Each week I cover a new topic in the class which focuses on applying > Abhidhamma in daily life (with a focus on daily life). > > There are a number of things that I plan to change, and I am looking > for YOUR input in the following areas: > - Are there any inaccuracies (most important issue) > - Can you recommend additional (short) pieces that could be added > - Any other suggestions for improvements > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14663 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 6:26am Subject: Photo of Monks in Sri Lanka Dear Group, The 'lost' photo of the Monks has been posted (thanks to Kom :)) and can be viewed at: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst It is number 48, just after some interesting ones by RobK. Herman, where the heck is the one of you and your family? Not fair. I miss seeing you all. Please, can you re-post it, or a new one? metta, Chris 14664 From: robmoult Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 7:32am Subject: Dying to Live Hi Christine, Great News! I found a book that I think will address your questions on the role of kamma in dying and rebirth. It also happens to be available on- line. http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/dying2live.htm Let me know if this helps. Thanks, Rob :-) 14665 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 7:52am Subject: Re: Dying to Live Thanks Rob - looks interesting, this should keep me busy for quite a while :) metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Great News! > > I found a book that I think will address your questions on the role > of kamma in dying and rebirth. It also happens to be available on- > line. > > http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/dying2live.htm > > Let me know if this helps. > > Thanks, > Rob :-) 14666 From: robmoult Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 7:52am Subject: Re: Class Notes on-line! Hi Christine, I tested it and it worked okay for me. Do you have Acrobat Reader Version 5? Could somebody else try to see if they get the same problem? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > I tried to read the file you have posted, with only partial success. > Initially, I got a black screen saying "Could not find ColorSpace > named 'Cs6', and could find nothing up to page 19, then variable > results up to page 70. There was a frequent error message > saying "There was an error procesing a page. A font contains a bad > CMap/encoding" It was O.K. from page 70 to page 115. > Is this my computer's problem (most likely), or the file, or > something else? < to fix my computer, I hope it is very simple>>. > > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I got permission from Jon and Sarah to upload my current set of > > Class Notes into the "Files" section of this discussion group. > > > > This is work in progress as I am only half way through the course. > > Each week I cover a new topic in the class which focuses on > applying > > Abhidhamma in daily life (with a focus on daily life). > > > > There are a number of things that I plan to change, and I am > looking > > for YOUR input in the following areas: > > - Are there any inaccuracies (most important issue) > > - Can you recommend additional (short) pieces that could be added > > - Any other suggestions for improvements > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 14667 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 9:03am Subject: Re: Class Notes on-line! Hi Rob M, Glad you asked that question.... Ummm, it appears there is a difference between having Acrobat Reader version 5 on the desktop, and actually having installed it.... Learn something new every day:):) All is well now, I can read everything. Thanks Rob. metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I tested it and it worked okay for me. > > Do you have Acrobat Reader Version 5? > > Could somebody else try to see if they get the same problem? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > > > > I tried to read the file you have posted, with only partial > success. > > Initially, I got a black screen saying "Could not find ColorSpace > > named 'Cs6', and could find nothing up to page 19, then variable > > results up to page 70. There was a frequent error message > > saying "There was an error procesing a page. A font contains a > bad > > CMap/encoding" It was O.K. from page 70 to page 115. > > Is this my computer's problem (most likely), or the file, or > > something else? < anything > > to fix my computer, I hope it is very simple>>. > > > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I got permission from Jon and Sarah to upload my current set of > > > Class Notes into the "Files" section of this discussion group. > > > > > > This is work in progress as I am only half way through the > course. > > > Each week I cover a new topic in the class which focuses on > > applying > > > Abhidhamma in daily life (with a focus on daily life). > > > > > > There are a number of things that I plan to change, and I am > > looking > > > for YOUR input in the following areas: > > > - Are there any inaccuracies (most important issue) > > > - Can you recommend additional (short) pieces that could be added > > > - Any other suggestions for improvements > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob M :-) 14668 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 11:24am Subject: Re: Class Notes on-line! --- Dear RobM, Very attractively presented. A couple of points: You write that the Suttas are practical whereas Abhidhamma is theoretical. I am not sure we make that distinction- the Abhidhamma is about any realities that are arising here and now, as well as others that we may experience in the future; I would say it is the least theoretical of any subject in the universe. And you write in several places about how there is free will. I am Not sure that this is supported by the Abhidhamma. Best wishes Robert "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > I got permission from Jon and Sarah to upload my current set of > Class Notes into the "Files" section of this discussion group. > > This is work in progress as I am only half way through the course. > Each week I cover a new topic in the class which focuses on applying > Abhidhamma in daily life (with a focus on daily life). > > There are a number of things that I plan to change, and I am looking > for YOUR input in the following areas: > - Are there any inaccuracies (most important issue) > - Can you recommend additional (short) pieces that could be added > - Any other suggestions for improvements > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14669 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Noosa weekend Ken H Nice to hear from you. Glad to know that your parents are doing well, and I hope their health continues to improve. Jon --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi all, > I am posting this from a public library in suburban Brisbane where I > have booked the email computer for half an hour. There are over two > hundred messages to be read but, sneaking a look ahead, I am pleased > to see that Jon and Sarah have arrived safely back in Hong Kong. > Also, my old friend Andrew has emerged from the cyber shadows. > > The Noosa dsg meeting was excellent. It is a rare privilege to talk > [in real time], to people who have a firm grasp of the Dhamma. > Admittedly, it can be a bit nerve-racking if one wants to appear more > knowledgable than one is -- confusion between realities and concepts > just can't be concealed. > > Encouraged to ask and answer questions without notice, I sometimes > wondered whether I had acquired any understanding at all. But that > is to be expected. After so many years of trying to practice > satipatthana with the idea of a self who can control and direct > mindfulness, it is only natural that confusion should arise. We > don't change our ways overnight. > > > My parents are convalescing well, so I will soon be home again and > back to my profuse message-sending ways :-) > > Kind regards > Ken H 14670 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 0:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Noosa weekend --- "kenhowardau" wrote: > , I sometimes > wondered whether I had acquired any understanding at all. But that > is to be expected. After so many years of trying to practice > satipatthana with the idea of a self who can control and direct > mindfulness, it is only natural that confusion should arise. We > don't change our ways overnight. > ----------------- Dear Ken, Andrew, Chris, Azita and all, I put some photos of Aso mountain where I went with children yesterday(only a 35 minute drive). Thought I better show off Japan's nature in case dsg all migrate to Queensland. Glad your parents are doing well, Ken. Your comments above seem so right to me. "We" can't get rid of wrong view - but by seeing ditthi, view (which in the case of believing that sati can be controlled is a very subtle and deep atta-sanna, self perception)it is let go of. It is like the man who has gone down to the river for 20 years and done his ritual washings and chats and yoga; they make him feel good and of themself are not dangerous- but it is the silabataupadana (clinging to sila and ritual)the belief that this is purifying the mind that is wrong. Wrong view always comes with lobha (attachment)and hence with pleasant or neutral feeling- it can never feel bad! Right view too comes with only pleasant feeling or neutral feeling but it arises only with alobha (detachment). And rightview leading out of samsara is intimately involoved with the understanding of anatta and powerlessness -- then there is detachment from the idea of 'me' practising; all the khandhas, every moment, are alien, and uncontrollable. Robert 14671 From: Andrew Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 1:05pm Subject: Animals Dear DSG'ers Thanks for your words of welcome. Sorry I did not reply as I have been struck down with a terrible flu, and am 2 weeks behind in uni work etc. It's likely I will only be an occasional poster until late in the year unfortunately. At the Noosa weekend, I mentioned to Jon that I was raised as a Catholic but never agreed with the Church's view on animals. I was first attracted to Buddhism because I believed it was consistent with the view that there is no fundamental difference between animals and humans ie that the differences that do exist are in degree only. I was raised surrounded by animals and became an avid birdwatcher. I had a feeling that the priests and their Cartesian views were simply wrong. Later, I went to uni and did anthropology. I studied the work done by Francine Patterson with Koko the gorilla (who was taught to communicate with sign language). This and other work showed that gorillas and other "higher primates" tell lies sometimes when it suits them and have a concept of death. They also show behaviours similar to human "compassion." It seems to me (this is the controversial bit) that it is more meaningful to compare a gorilla with a human than it is to compare a human with a single-celled organism. I find some support for this in the Dhamma. Buddha did not draw an impassable line between animals and humans. While animals are put in a realm lower than humans, SOME animals are lumped together with humans in the First Abode of Beings (sattavasa) - namely, a collection of beings who are different in body and different in perception. This makes a lot of sense to me. I happily place myself and Koko the gorilla in the First Abode. Also in the First Abode is that being described by RobM - the human who does nothing but watch "The Flintstones." Do you think I am interpreting all this correctly? If I am not, I am tempted to make out the following argument. Buddha was once in the forest and picked up a handful of leaves. He explained that these were the truths he was giving, but there are others as numerous as leaves in the forest which he wouldn't teach on. (Did I get that right?) Is it possible that the true position of animals vis-a-vis humans was a truth Buddha didn't go into because people's minds would have felt insulted and would not have been receptive to Dhamma if he had lectured on how close we are to monkeys? Is it a cop-out to use such an argument? I would appreciate any comments as I want to explore if I am clinging to Wrong View on the topic of animals. Cheers, Andrew 14672 From: <> Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 1:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Dear Nina, this is great! Very interesting. I made a muddle of my last two questions,so let me rephrase. What is the difference between concentrating and compounding? In other words, is concentration a matter of bringing cetasikas together, or is it more like reducing as when we reduce milk to make it concentrated? I see I made a mistake in thinking absorption concentration (appana samadhi) is supramundane. Both access and absorption samadhis are mundane unless the absorption samadhi has nibbana as an object; in which case, it is supramundane. Correct? If so, my question should have been what makes a samadhi an appana samadhi? This question ties into my basic bewilderment about what is the purpose of jhana. Can we say jhana is a particular kind of samadhi in which the 5 hindrances are suppressed and its purpose is tranquility (samatha)? Is tranquility an end in itself because of nearness to nibbana or could it be the state of mind best suited to recognizing realities? Last question: can we practice jhana simply by working on suppressing the hindrances? thanks for everything, Larry 14673 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 1:31pm Subject: Re: Animals --- Dear Andrew, Thank you for the Gorilla cases. There are many cases in the Jataka of good and bad animals as well. I think animals or humas are no different in that both are really only the five khandhas, arisng and ceasing. You mention one- celled 'animals'. In The Dhamma such things as bacteris or virus or plants are not considered alive - they are simply complex combinations of rupa, no nama. In the Vimanavatthu and Visuddhimagga a frog listened to the Buddha and knew only that 'this is good' He died and was imediately reborn as a deva, went to listen more to the Buddha and became a sotapanna. Or as Kom mentioned a monk died, was reborn as a flea and then the next day died and was born as a deva and became sotapanna. We humans think we are better than animals but this is perhaps our conceit. Robert Andrew wrote: > Dear DSG'ers > Thanks for your words of welcome. Sorry I did not reply as I have been > struck down with a terrible flu, and am 2 weeks behind in uni work etc. > It's likely I will only be an occasional poster until late in the year > unfortunately. > At the Noosa weekend, I mentioned to Jon that I was raised as a Catholic > but never agreed with the Church's view on animals. I was first > attracted to Buddhism because I believed it was consistent with the view > that there is no fundamental difference between animals and humans ie > that the differences that do exist are in degree only. I was raised > surrounded by animals and became an avid birdwatcher. I had a feeling > that the priests and their Cartesian views were simply wrong. Later, I > went to uni and did anthropology. I studied the work done by Francine > Patterson with Koko the gorilla (who was taught to communicate with sign > language). This and other work showed that gorillas and other "higher > primates" tell lies sometimes when it suits them and have a concept of > death. They also show behaviours similar to human "compassion." > It seems to me (this is the controversial bit) that it is more > meaningful to compare a gorilla with a human than it is to compare a > human with a single-celled organism. I find some support for this in > the Dhamma. Buddha did not draw an impassable line between animals and > humans. While animals are put in a realm lower than humans, SOME > animals are lumped together with humans in the First Abode of Beings > (sattavasa) - namely, a collection of beings who are different in body > and different in perception. This makes a lot of sense to me. I > happily place myself and Koko the gorilla in the First Abode. Also in > the First Abode is that being described by RobM - the human who does > nothing but watch "The Flintstones." Do you think I am interpreting all > this correctly? > If I am not, I am tempted to make out the following argument. Buddha > was once in the forest and picked up a handful of leaves. He explained > that these were the truths he was giving, but there are others as > numerous as leaves in the forest which he wouldn't teach on. (Did I get > that right?) Is it possible that the true position of animals vis- a-vis > humans was a truth Buddha didn't go into because people's minds would > have felt insulted and would not have been receptive to Dhamma if he had > lectured on how close we are to monkeys? Is it a cop-out to use such an > argument? I would appreciate any comments as I want to explore if I am > clinging to Wrong View on the topic of animals. Cheers, > Andrew 14674 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ideas about birth and death (was, Re: Noosa weekend) Hi Rob Ep, I like your description of the illusion of self very much: --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > I think it's just the familiar feeling of self, the thought of self, > self-concept > arising with various associations. The point I think is not that there > is not a > sense of self, but that this sense is an illusion. If one did not have > the > feeling that something substantial was being referenced when saying > 'me', 'self', > or one's name, then it wouldn't be an illusion. What makes the snake an > illusion > is that it really seems like a snake, but is actually a rope. Seeming > does not > make it real. ***** Often we hear there is a self until it is eradicated....of course what this means is that there is an illusion of a self until the illusion is eradicated. Often people also say that they must practice a certain way with the idea of self because it hasn’t yet been eradicated. I would suggest that the practice is in spite of this illusion and only at moments of kusala (wholesome) consciousness when the illusion (read: wrong view) does not arise. “Seeming does not make it real”......excellent reminder;-)) Thanks, Sarah ===== 14675 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 3:39pm Subject: Re: Animals Dear Andrew, With your study of Ethics you have probably come across this article before. But if not, it is worth a read, even though a few terms used to describe humans of limited intellectual ability are not the terms sensitive people would use today.... I have found this article thought provoking (and a little comforting) in my consideration of the difficulty animals may have in being able once again to achieve a human rebirth. metta, Christine Excerpt: "The Place of Animals in Buddhism" by Francis Story In an article on evolutionary ethics, Sir John Arthur Thomsom, Regius Professor of Natural History, Aberdeen University, makes the striking observation that 'Animals may not be ethical, but they are often virtuous'. If this opinion had been expressed by a Buddhist writer it might have met with scepticism from those who hold 'commonsense' practical views on the nature of animals. Perhaps even more so from those whose religion teaches them to regard man as a special creation, the only being with a 'soul' and therefore the only one capable of noble and disinterested action. Scientific evidence that man differs from animals in quality, but not in essential kind, has not yet broken down the age-old religious idea of man's god-bestowed uniqueness and superiority. It is a view that is both flattering and convenient to homo sapiens, and so will die hard, if it dies at all, in the popular mind. To be quite fair to theistic religious ideas, the anthropocentric bias is quite as strong among people who are pleased to consider themselves rationalists as it is among the religiously orthodox. But Prof. Thomson's verdict is that of an unbiased scientific observer and student of behaviour, and most open-minded people would endorse it. Its full implication lies in the distinction between 'ethical' and 'virtuous'. Ethical conduct is that which follows a code of moral rules and is aware, to some extent of an intelligible principle underlying them. Virtue, on the other hand, is the source from which spring unpremeditated acts of kindness, self- abnegation and heroism, prompted by love or some other primal and instinctive urge. It is not an ethical sense that makes the female animal defend her young with her life, or a dog remain with its unconscious master in a burning house rather than save itself. When as Prof. Thomson points out animals 'are devoted to their offspring, sympathetic to their kindred, affectionate to their mates, self- subordinating in their community, courageous beyond praise', it is not because they are morally aware or morally trained, but because they have another quality, which can only be called virtue. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism//fstory4.htm --- Andrew wrote: > Dear DSG'ers > Thanks for your words of welcome. Sorry I did not reply as I have been > struck down with a terrible flu, and am 2 weeks behind in uni work etc. > It's likely I will only be an occasional poster until late in the year > unfortunately. > At the Noosa weekend, I mentioned to Jon that I was raised as a Catholic > but never agreed with the Church's view on animals. I was first > attracted to Buddhism because I believed it was consistent with the view > that there is no fundamental difference between animals and humans ie > that the differences that do exist are in degree only. I was raised > surrounded by animals and became an avid birdwatcher. I had a feeling > that the priests and their Cartesian views were simply wrong. Later, I > went to uni and did anthropology. I studied the work done by Francine > Patterson with Koko the gorilla (who was taught to communicate with sign > language). This and other work showed that gorillas and other "higher > primates" tell lies sometimes when it suits them and have a concept of > death. They also show behaviours similar to human "compassion." > It seems to me (this is the controversial bit) that it is more > meaningful to compare a gorilla with a human than it is to compare a > human with a single-celled organism. I find some support for this in > the Dhamma. Buddha did not draw an impassable line between animals and > humans. While animals are put in a realm lower than humans, SOME > animals are lumped together with humans in the First Abode of Beings > (sattavasa) - namely, a collection of beings who are different in body > and different in perception. This makes a lot of sense to me. I > happily place myself and Koko the gorilla in the First Abode. Also in > the First Abode is that being described by RobM - the human who does > nothing but watch "The Flintstones." Do you think I am interpreting all > this correctly? > If I am not, I am tempted to make out the following argument. Buddha > was once in the forest and picked up a handful of leaves. He explained > that these were the truths he was giving, but there are others as > numerous as leaves in the forest which he wouldn't teach on. (Did I get > that right?) Is it possible that the true position of animals vis-a- vis > humans was a truth Buddha didn't go into because people's minds would > have felt insulted and would not have been receptive to Dhamma if he had > lectured on how close we are to monkeys? Is it a cop-out to use such an > argument? I would appreciate any comments as I want to explore if I am > clinging to Wrong View on the topic of animals. Cheers, > Andrew 14676 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness Hi Frank, Larry & All, --- frank kuan wrote: > do you ever look at your watch and immediately forget > the time, so you look again? and still it doesn't > register, so you have to look a third time. And then > someone asks you what time it is, and you actually > have to look at your watch for the fourth time in 3 > minutes? Don't you feel stupid? - george carlin ***** Brief comments: 1. Spot on....very familiar;-) 2. Feeling stupid - sometimes (OK- often), just an indication of clinging to self and mana (conceit) though. 3. Lack of conventional ‘mindfulness’ as in this example, Howard’s accident or Christine’s loss of items has little if anything to do with sati (awareness) as discussed in the texts, I believe. ***** --- <> wrote: > Hi Sarah, I guess I should have said *I* have given up on understanding > memory; or perhaps, this group that is *me* has given up, instead of > *you guys* have given up on understanding memory as something other or > more than sanna. I guess my point was that I didn't think memories and > accumulations (ayuhana) was the same thing. My further point was that > everyone (*you guys*) seems to be locked-in to sanna as the alpha and > omega of memory. There's got to be more to it than "sanna marks for > memory." But whatever more there is isn't in abhidhamma; so all we can > do is speculate, and in the end that's pretty unsatisfactory. So I gave > up. ..... I believe others have already come back on this, so I hope I’m not just repeating what’s been said. Whenever we talk about a conventional term, such as memory, there are always a number of cittas, cetasikas and even rupas which are inter-related and intricately conditioning and being conditioned to form up the idea of ‘memory’ (just like the ‘rose’). Sanna plays a key role. I don’t think we need to idly speculate at all and in fact all the details are contained in the abhidhamma, even if our understanding cannont fully comprehend (or even begin to comprehend) the details. ..... >But 'giving up' being an event in a continuous flow of events, it > later occured to me that recognizing and remembering are probably > distinct, complex processes. Furthermore, we all probably have perfect > memories but there is considerable variability in our ability to > remember. This no doubt is due to hindrances to clear seeing. Would > there, by any chance, be a list of such hindrances? ..... Like you suggest, I also think these are all complex processes. Yes, there can be thinking about ‘giving up’ one moment and about ‘not giving up’ the next and so on. What is a ‘perfect memory’? Whenever there is an akusala citta (and as Kom always kindly reminds us, there is far, far more akusala than kusala), there is ‘perverted’ sanna. So, for example, when a bank robber is carefully and ‘correctly’ concentrating on opening the bank safe with the correct code (perfect memory, conventionally), there is ‘perverted’ sanna unless any wholesome moments have slipped in. On the otherhand, when we lose an item, there may be moments of kindness or mental development whilst ‘mindlessly’ slipping the photo in the book or putting the keys in the ‘wrong’ place. In other words, as i understand, sati and sanna cannot be judged by conventional ideas of mindfulness and good memory. I would suggest that hindrances to the development of samatha are one thing, hindrances to ‘clear seeing’ of realities are another and hindrances to remembering what our watch says or not getting run over or not losing items are quite another. Not sure if this helps but I’ll be glad to hear what you think. Sarah ===== 14677 From: egberdina Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 4:42pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Hi Sarah, --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Herman, > > Hope you're all doing well and glad to see you back after your DSG > holiday;-) Hope you can join us next time we get to Noosa. > Noosa sounds excellent, and the experiences that people have shared about getting together seem very beneficial. Next weekend there's about 20 of us going skiing at Charlotte's Pass. We are turning it into a non-gazetted long weekend. If you have the inclination, it would be great to discuss over a hot chocolate with a marshmallow :-) > --- egberdina wrote: > > > I speculate that at an experiential level there is no awareness of > > conception as conception, birth as birth or death as death. This > > would be the same for all living things, including humans. There > > would also not be awareness of I am this, I am that at such moments. > ..... > Can we say, in your view, that whenever there is an idea of "I am this, I > am that", that it is merely thinking (very often with wrong view)? Yes, of course. Sometimes I just don't see it, and when you don't see it , you can't make yourself see it. :-) Can we > also agree that "I" and what is taken for "I" are merely namas and rupas > (mental and physical phenomena)? Yes, for sure. Do these phenomena change at this moment? All the time. > Is there any birth and death of them? Is what we take for "Herman" now the > same as "Herman" a moment ago? No. Is there any reason why these changing > phenomena should not arise and pass away in the future too? Yes, I try and have an open mind, but I have many questions. For example, with each moment, it is possible to have a memory of a previous moment. Throughout a lifetime one acquires a multitude of memories and skills (also a form of memory). The reoccurence of the same memories creates the idea of persistence. So what is the difference between each passing moment in one lifetime and moving from one life to the next. Well, for one, you loose all your memory and all your skills from the previous lifetime. Pretty big difference, or am I missing something? All the best Herman 14678 From: robmoult Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 5:20pm Subject: Re: Class Notes on-line! Hi Robert, --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear RobM, > Very attractively presented. A couple of points: You write that the > Suttas are practical whereas Abhidhamma is theoretical. I am not > sure we make that distinction- the Abhidhamma is about any realities > that are arising here and now, as well as others that we may > experience in the future; I would say it is the least theoretical of > any subject in the universe. I agree that it doesn't make sense to use the practical/theoretical differentiation. I fell into a trap here. I have heard it said that the Sinhalese are the keepers of the Suttas, the Thais are the keepers of the Sangha and the Burmese are the keepers of the Abhidhamma. Obviously a gross oversimplification, but I will say that there is a strong pro-Sutta group at the (Sinhalese) Vihara that I attend and the criticism that they level at the Abhidhamma is that it is too abstract and theoretical. I disagree with this perspective and I am trying to show that Abhidhamma can play a part in daily life and on page 1 of my notes, I shoot myself in the foot! The bullets have been deleted. > And you write in several places about how there is free will. I am > Not sure that this is supported by the Abhidhamma. In "A Manual of Abhidhamma" by Narada (Abhidhammatthasangaha with commentary), P32-33, "After this comes that stage of representative cognition termed the determining consciousness (Votthapana). Discrimination is exercised at this stage. Free will plays its part here." In the same book, P146, "Sometimes the free will of a person determines the mode of feeling independent of the nature of the object." I have seen the term "free will" used in other texts, but not in the classical commentaries. One possible explanation is that the term is a modern invention (just as "subconscious" or "unconscious" which, I believe, sprang from modern psychology). I must admit that I am having some difficulty reconciling "free will" with anatta. There is a lot more that I need to understand about anatta and I am really looking forward to researching the subject. I see "free will" as a concept... useful in developing understanding, but not necessarily 100% technically accurate. At some point in the future, I plan to explore "free will" on-line with the DSG, but at the moment, I am not prepared. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14679 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 6:28pm Subject: Re: Class Notes on-line! --- Dear RobM, but I will say > that there is a strong pro-Sutta group at the (Sinhalese) Vihara > that I attend and the criticism that they level at the Abhidhamma is > that it is too abstract and theoretical. I disagree with this > perspective and I am trying to show that Abhidhamma can play a part > in daily life and on page 1 of my notes, I shoot myself in the foot! _________ That was easy! I am sure it must be hard to please all - I certainly come across many Buddhists who don't appreciate Abhidhamma. They are very fortunate at the Vihara that you really see that the Abhidhamma is vital in our daily life, not an abstract subject. On the question of freewill please bring it up anytime; I believe it is crucial part of the understanding of Anatta and bears directly on how we interpret and thus practice the Dhamma. Robert "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear RobM, > > Very attractively presented. A couple of points: You write that > the > > Suttas are practical whereas Abhidhamma is theoretical. I am not > > sure we make that distinction- the Abhidhamma is about any > realities > > that are arising here and now, as well as others that we may > > experience in the future; I would say it is the least theoretical > of > > any subject in the universe. > > I agree that it doesn't make sense to use the practical/theoretical > differentiation. I fell into a trap here. I have heard it said that > the Sinhalese are the keepers of the Suttas, the Thais are the > keepers of the Sangha and the Burmese are the keepers of the > Abhidhamma. Obviously a gross oversimplification, > > The bullets have been deleted. > > > And you write in several places about how there is free will. I am > > Not sure that this is supported by the Abhidhamma. > > In "A Manual of Abhidhamma" by Narada (Abhidhammatthasangaha with > commentary), P32-33, "After this comes that stage of representative > cognition termed the determining consciousness (Votthapana). > Discrimination is exercised at this stage. Free will plays its part > here." In the same book, P146, "Sometimes the free will of a person > determines the mode of feeling independent of the nature of the > object." > > I have seen the term "free will" used in other texts, but not in the > classical commentaries. One possible explanation is that the term is > a modern invention (just as "subconscious" or "unconscious" which, I > believe, sprang from modern psychology). > > I must admit that I am having some difficulty reconciling "free > will" with anatta. There is a lot more that I need to understand > about anatta and I am really looking forward to researching the > subject. I see "free will" as a concept... useful in developing > understanding, but not necessarily 100% technically accurate. > > At some point in the future, I plan to explore "free will" on-line > with the DSG, but at the moment, I am not prepared. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14680 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 10:30pm Subject: Re: Perspective on Death (Part I) --- "robmoult" wrote: >Comparing these two persons we can ask whose mental attitude is of greater long-term spiritual value. No clear pronouncement on this case is found in the Suttas and commentaries, but enough indication is given to support an intelligent guess. On this basis we would say that the mental attitude of the Mr. B, who has gone for refuge with clear understanding and sincerity of heart, is of greater long-term spiritual value. [Christine, note that the focus here is on long- term value, not merely the benefits in this life or the life just following this one.] ___________ I thought this was quite an important point. If we are looking for quick results then there are many remedies in the spiritual marketplace - and they can be very helpful in consoling and helping one to live a productive life. But the Dhamma of the Buddha is about leading out of samsara and that doesn't happen overnight. The Buddha had the patience to develop the parami over 4 uncountable aeons and 100,000 kappas and (as Kom said) we can get the courage to carry on by knowing that it is no easy task. Robert 14681 From: robmoult Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 11:52pm Subject: Re: Perspective on Death (Part I) Hi Robert, I had fun with this example in class. I posed it as a question and everybody guessed Mr. A (deeply ingrained focus on short term). I hope that the answer shocked some people into reconsidering their perspective. Another one that I had fun with was the discussion on mindfulness. I am sure you know the Sutta where the Buddha talks about the man balancing a bowl of oil on his head while walking in front of a cheering crowd and dancing girls (major distraction). The man has an executioner behind him who will cut off his head if the man spills a drop of oil from the bowl... I then asked, "who thinks that the Buddha was using the man's mental state as an example of mindfulness?" Most thought that this was the point of the Sutta. I then read the rest of the Sutta... "I have given you this parable to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: The bowl filled to the brim with oil stands for mindfulness immersed in the body. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in the body. We will pursue it, give it a means of transport, give it a grounding, steady it, consolidate it, and undertake it well.' That is how you should train yourselves." The man whose life was at risk was certainly concentrating, but this is not the same as mindfulness. Most people (incorrectly) equate mindfulness with concentration. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- "robmoult" wrote: > >Comparing these two persons we can ask whose mental attitude is of > greater long-term spiritual value. No clear pronouncement on this > case is found in the Suttas and commentaries, but enough indication > is given to support an intelligent guess. On this basis we would say > that the mental attitude of the Mr. B, who has gone for refuge with > clear understanding and sincerity of heart, is of greater long- term > spiritual value. [Christine, note that the focus here is on long- > term value, not merely the benefits in this life or the life just > following this one.] > ___________ > I thought this was quite an important point. If we are looking for > quick results then there are many remedies in the spiritual > marketplace - and they can be very helpful in consoling and helping > one to live a productive life. > But the Dhamma of the Buddha is about leading out of samsara and > that doesn't happen overnight. The Buddha had the patience to > develop the parami over 4 uncountable aeons and 100,000 kappas and > (as Kom said) we can get the courage to carry on by knowing that it > is no easy task. > Robert 14682 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 0:41am Subject: Vipassana for Children --- Sarah wrote: Hi Sarah, > ..... > > > Finally, I will give out a copy of Gregory Kramer's excellent > > piece > > > on teaching Metta to Children (most of my students have kids). > > > > > > http://www.buddhanet.net/imol/lovkids.htm > ..... > Thank you for this nice reference. As I work with lots and lots of kids, I > always like looking at materials for kids. > Many parents want to introduce Buddhism to our children at a young age. Unfortunately, concepts such as suffering, impermanence and no- soul are meaningless to young children. Young children learn by doing. Young children learn from routines. Young children are most receptive at bedtime. Gregory Kramer shows how he has used Metta meditation with his young children using all these principles. Last Vesak, I attended a Dhamma talk by Dr. Ingrid Jordt (she was visiting Malaysia). She spent some time as a Buddhist nun in Burma, but is now married and raising a daughter. She explained how she introduced vipassana meditation to her infant daughter. Each night, at bedtime, when her daughter was in her crib, she would touch her daughter's head and say, "this is your head". She would then touch her daughter's neck and say, "this is your neck". She would progress down her daughter's body. When her daughter was old enough to understand words, Ingrid told her daughter to touch her own head, touch her own neck, etc. After this routine had been established, one night, Ingrid told her daughter to touch her head, not with her hand, but with her mind. A flash of understanding came across her daughter's face. She understood that she could direct her own mind. Later, when the daughter could talk, she did not say things such as, "I am angry", but rather, "I have an angry mind". How many preschoolers do you know that can note mental states? Unfortunately, I don't think that Dr. Jordt has ever documented her experience with her daughter in writing (she is an anthropologist and her speciality is the impact of the lay mediation movement in modern Burma). Thanks, Rob M :-) 14683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections, ch 3, no 8 op 01-08-2002 23:40 schreef Howard op Howard: > > In a message dated 8/1/02 1:04:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina > writes: > >> One should not associate with people who have wrong view. > Howard: But inasmuch as most of us, to some extent or other, have wrong view, > would this not lead to a psychological dissociative state? ;-)) > More seriously, the statement, is, of course, generally a truism, but > inasmuch as we can't be all so certain as to how "right minded" we are, > ourselves, perhaps we shouldn't be too *quick* to judge the views of others. > Sometimes we can pass over gems that we mistake for dirty rocks. I've > certainly had that experience with people and their views. If we keep our > wits about us, there are, I think, things to learn from the most implausible > sources. Hi Howard, What you write is correct. We all have wrong view, and also, we can certainly learn from people with different views, yes, even in many respects. But let us look now at the word: association. What does it imply? Here is a text you also know: cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti. katame cattaaro? Four dhammas lead to the growth of pa~n`naa. Which four? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro, dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. Association with the wise person, hearing the true Dhamma, wise attention and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. (A ii 245) Now we have to look at the word association again, sa.msevo, it comes from sevati: to serve, associate with, resort to, practise, embrace. Association with the wise: we do not think so much of a specific person, but it is the Dhamma we want to hear. We read in the Dispeller of Delusion,. co to the Book of Analysis, that some people teach another set of the four noble Truths and another Path. These are views not helpful for the growth of pa~n~naa. We do not associate with such views. Thus, the sentence: we should not associate with people of wrong view should be understood in the above sense. They do not imply a negative judgement of persons. The Buddha taught that we should have no conceit, we should have metta, compassion, gentleness. Best wishes, Nina. 14684 From: Howard Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections, ch 3, no 8 Hi, Nina - Excellent. Thanks! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/3/02 1:12:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > op 01-08-2002 23:40 schreef Howard op Howard: > > > > In a message dated 8/1/02 1:04:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Nina > > writes: > > > >> One should not associate with people who have wrong view. > > > Howard: But inasmuch as most of us, to some extent or other, have wrong > view, > > would this not lead to a psychological dissociative state? ;-)) > > More seriously, the statement, is, of course, generally a truism, but > > inasmuch as we can't be all so certain as to how "right minded" we are, > > ourselves, perhaps we shouldn't be too *quick* to judge the views of > others. > > Sometimes we can pass over gems that we mistake for dirty rocks. I've > > certainly had that experience with people and their views. If we keep our > > wits about us, there are, I think, things to learn from the most > implausible > > sources. > > Hi Howard, > What you write is correct. We all have wrong view, and also, we can > certainly learn from people with different views, yes, even in many > respects. But let us look now at the word: association. > What does it imply? Here is a text you also know: > cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti. katame > cattaaro? > Four dhammas lead to the growth of pa~n`naa. Which four? > sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro, > dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. > > Association with the wise person, hearing the true Dhamma, wise attention > and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. > (A ii 245) > > Now we have to look at the word association again, sa.msevo, it comes from > sevati: to serve, associate with, resort to, practise, embrace. > Association with the wise: we do not think so much of a specific person, > but > it is the Dhamma we want to hear. We read in the Dispeller of Delusion,. co > to the Book of Analysis, that some people teach another set of the four > noble Truths and another Path. These are views not helpful for the growth > of > pa~n~naa. We do not associate with such views. > Thus, the sentence: we should not associate with people of wrong view > should > be understood in the above sense. They do not imply a negative judgement of > persons. The Buddha taught that we should have no conceit, we should have > metta, compassion, gentleness. > Best wishes, > Nina. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14685 From: <> Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness Sarah: "I would suggest that hindrances to the development of samatha are one thing, hindrances to 'clear seeing' of realities are another and hindrances to remembering what our watch says or not getting run over or not losing items are quite another." Hi Sarah, I was going to ask Nina this question but since you brought it up, I will ask you. So what are these three sets of hindrances? As to what is perfect memory, since sanna accompanies every citta then every citta and all its cetasikas and arammana throughout every lifetime must be recallable (theoretically). It is said arahats can recall previous lives, some more than others. So we all have perfect memories but there is great variability in ability to remember a memory. Larry 14686 From: Howard Date: Sat Aug 3, 2002 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking Hi again, Nina - I found the following which seems to support my "fresh memory" notion: The following is taken from: ************************************ Dying to Live The Role of Kamma in Dying and Rebirth Aggacitta Bhikkhu *********************************** Here is a brief explanation of the diagram: after the eye-door process has ceased, a memory of the visual object comes into range at the mind-door and sets off many sequences of mind-door processes whereby the object is recognized, conceptualized, thought about, and perhaps acted upon verbally or physically. The number of these consequent processes varies according to circumstances and need not conform to the arbitrary pattern in the diagram. For a detailed explanation of these processes, see A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi (Kandy: BPS, 1993), pp. 163-165. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/30/02 1:02:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Howard:When an object > >> is > >>> gone, so are all its characteristics gone. When the visual object is > gone > >> - > >>> that is, when the visual consciousness is completed and mental > >> discernment, > >>> instead, is operative, the mental discernment must be discerning some > >> mental > >>> object, which I *presumed* must be "a 'fresh memory' (a faithful > replica) > >> of > >>> the just fallen-away image". If that is not what the object of the > mental > >>> consciousness is, what is it then? > Howard: I've been thinking this over, and perhaps I get it. When an image > is > discerned by visual consciousness, there is the function of mere seeing, > but > when mental consciousness operates on the very same image, there is, for > example, the operation of sa~n~na, or identification/recognition. The same > image obtained by the process of visual discernment is processed in a > further > manner. Am I correct? > > Nina: It is visible object that is experienced by cittas in the eye-door > process, > >> and it is visible object experienced by cittas arising in the mind-door > >> process that follows immediately upon the eye-door process. Not mental > object. The same in > >> the case of the other sense-cognitions. Only later on there are > mind-door > >> processes of cittas experiencing concepts. > >> See Expositor I, from p. 95 on, Part 2, Analysis of Terms, Risings of > >> Consciousness, especially 74: >> apperceptional thought (javana) having any one of the objects arises > >> through > >> two doors in the manner described. Thus the apperception of a visible > >> object > >> arises at the eye-dooor and also at the mind-door...> > >> Only when the first stage of insight arises doubts about this disappear. > Howard: > > ============================= > > Thanks for the explanation. Okay, but could you please say a bit more > > about how the mind-door/mentality experiences a visual image? > >I've been thinking this over, and perhaps I get it. When an image is > discerned by visual consciousness, there is the function of mere seeing, > but > when mental consciousness operates on the very same image, there is, for > example, the operation of sa~n~na, or identification/recognition. The same > image obtained by the process of visual discernment is processed in a > further > manner. Am I correct? > > Nina: Seeing cognizes only what appears through eyes, colour or visible > object, not shape and form, not perspective, not an image. When your eyes > are open it can appear, and when you close them no colour appears. When > your > eyes are open there are so many colours, but you may not pay attention to > them. You see them all, but there is usually ignorance following the > seeing. > When you try to know visible object by focussing on a tissue paper there is > thinking, even when you do not think in words. When there is thinking there > is no seeing and how could you know then the characteristics of seeing or > visible object? Seeing is not fixing on an image. The mind-door process > that > follows upon the eye-door process experiences exactly the same object, no > difference. We should not over emphasize the role of sanna here, there is > sanna with each citta, also with seeing, with receiving consciousness, etc. > But since we cannot experience the mind-door, why worry about it? It is > better to know first what can be experienced now: six doors, which are > separate: hearing does not know the object of seeing, nor of smelling. > When someone else is talking to you there is not always attention to the > meaning of the words, just sound is heard. We are touching many things, > such > as hardness or heat, but we often do not pay attention to these rupas. > Tangible object is experienced and then many moments of ignorance. When we > have been listening to the Dhamma and we learnt about sati that arises > because of the right conditions, there can be sati instead of ignorance. > But > when there is trying, trying to find out, focussing on specific objects, it > is not sati. It is better to consider and investigate different objects > through different doorways, and not even think of sati. It will arise when > it is the righ time. But understanding is most important. Not concentration > should be emphasized but understanding. We should see our own ignorance, > the > moments of ignorance, that is the beginning of panna. We should know when > and where there is ignorance. When we are quite honest with ourselves, does > it not seem that we are seeing and hearing at the same time? We are mixing > the different doorways. Ignorance again. > Best wishes from > Nina. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14687 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 6:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] Perfections, ch 3, no 8 Dear Nina, > -----Original Message----- > From: Nina van Gorkom [mailto:Nina] > > Herein, at the appropriate time, a bodhisattva > practises salutation, rising > up, giving respectful greetings (ańjali), and > observing courteous conduct > towards good friends worthy of reverence. At the > appropriate time he renders > them service, and he waits upon them when they > are sick. When he receives > well-spoken advice he expresses his appreciation. > He praises the noble > qualities of the virtuous and patiently endures > the abuse of antagonists. He > remembers help rendered to him by others, > rejoices in their merits, > dedicates his own merits to the supreme > enlightenment, and always abides > diligently in the practice of wholesome states. > When he commits a > transgression he acknowledges it as such and > confesses it to his > co-religionists. Afterwards he perfectly fulfils > the right practice. > He is adroit and nimble in fulfilling his duties > towards beings when these > are conducive to their good. He serves as their > companion. When beings are > afflicted with the suffering of disease, etc., he > prepares the appropriate > remedy. He dispels the sorrow of those afflicted > by the loss of wealth, > etc.- Of a helpful disposition, he restrains with > Dhamma those who need to > be restrained, rehabilitates them from > unwholesome ways, and establishes > them in wholesome courses of conduct. He inspires > with Dhamma those in need > of inspiration. And when he hears about the > loftiest, most difficult, > inconceivably powerful deeds of the great > bodhisattvas of the past, issuing > in the ultimate welfare and happiness of beings, > by means of which they > reached perfect maturity in the requisites of > enlightenment, he does not > become agitated and alarmed, but reflects: Great Beings were only > human beings. But by developing themselves > through the orderly fulfilment of > the training they attained the loftiest spiritual > power and the highest > perfection in the requisites of enlightenment. I, > too, should practise the > same training in virtue, etc. In that way I, too, > will gradually fulfil the > training and in the end attain the same state.> > Then, with unflagging energy > preceded by this faith, he perfectly fulfils the > training in virtue, etc. > Thank you very much for this passage. I found it greatly inspiring... kom 14688 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 7:18am Subject: Characteristics and Thinking - For Howard Hi Howard, I must admit that I have not been following the whole message stream, but perhaps this posting of mine from a couple of weeks back might be relevant. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, I have a different view of tadarammana. > > Some of my students tried to directly link tadarammana to memory and > I don't think that this is correct. > > There are a million million cittas in each second and therefore we > run through the thought process hundreds of millions of times each > second. The tadarammana citta "marks" or "registers" an object so > that the subsequent thought process can use the same object. > > Think of the following sequence of thought processes: > 1. An external object is reproduced at the mind door > - Visible object / weak kamma > 2. We construct a mind object; we perceive the whole picture > - Mind object / weak kamma > 3. We perceive colour > - Mind object / weak kamma > 4. We concieve the shape of the object > - Mind object / strong kamma (oops, we've got a concept, now!) > 5. We designate the object as a flower > - Mind object / strong kamma > 6. We judge that the flower is a rose > - Mind object / strong kamma > 7. We classify the object as a red rose > - Mind object / strong kamma > 8. We are attached to the red rose > - Mind object / very strong kamma (lobha!) > > Each of the eight listed above are a separate thought process, each > thought process with 17 cittas. Citta-niyama orders the sequence of > cittas within a thought process, but it is the tadarammana citta > that links the object from one thought process to the next. > > Following the eight thought processes listed above, there could be > thousands of subsequent thought processes as we remember prior > experiences with red roses (mostly lobha-mula, I'm sure!). > > If the object is "slight" then there is no tadarammana in a thought > process and no continuation of the flow of thought processes. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- Larry wrote: > > Hi Rob, I don't have any ideas at the moment and my brain doesn't > want > > to go there but coincidentally I was wondering today about a > similar > > problem. I was trying to figure out what tadarammana does and I > finally > > came up with something like what we do when we register a > significant > > perception. We sort of take extra note of it. The problem is, this > is a > > complex process that I am using to understand a single citta. The > cittas > > in a citta process are practically on an atomic scale. And > molecules > > don't behave like atoms, so to speak. So can the study of citta > process > > tell us anything about experience? > > > > yes? Larry > > -------------- 14689 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 0:45pm Subject: Re: Dying to Live Dear All, Thanks again Rob M for the link to: Dying to Live - The Role of Kamma in Dying and Rebirth by Aggacitta Bhikkhu http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/dying2live.htm It was interesting to read and to refresh my understanding of the ten unwholesome and wholesome courses of actions. Again the importance of Right Speech is emphasised. I note that False Speech includes writing or hand signals, and have always wondered if it would include such things as not telling the full truth, or remaining silent when one knows a false impression has been created. As well, under Harsh Speech - I wonder about people who say that they use harsh, derisive or insulting speech for 'the good of others', to 'wake them up' ... a good intention or fooling themselves? With regard to The Bases of Meritorious Deeds (Dana, Sila and Bhavana) - two are very familiar and practiced here, but it is Dana that is neglected. Generosity is valued, but Transference of Merit, and Rejoicing in others' Merit is virtually unknown (perhaps in all western cultures) - unless being generally happy and pleased at anothers good deeds counts. The pages on fourfold kamma (by way of function, order of ripening, time of ripening, and place of ripening) and the ripening order of rebirth generating kamma was very clarifying for me. I loved the story of the Bhikkhu who Became a Deva as a result of Habitual Kamma (practicing Vipassana meditation) and was born in Tavatimsa heaven. He was meditating so attentively that he didn't know he had died and become a deva, he thought the thousand devis who rushed out to welcome their master were lay devotees, practised self- restraint and lowered his eyes. Once they brought a full length mirror and he realised what had happened he was aghast, wouldn't go outside his Mansion for fear of temptation. He used his powers to visit the Buddha in the human realm (followed by his thousand companions:), got precise meditation instructions and became a sotapanna. With regard to Reserve Kamma, the Modern day example of 'A can of Uncooked Rice' is effective. Two Burmese men are friends, one loans the other a can of uncooked rice. The borrower is bitten by snake and dies before returning it. Years later a village boy claims to be the dead man, and returns the rice, saying he had been a fighting cock and a calf owned, and killed, by the lender of the rice, who burst into tears and wailed, "I'll never kill again! I'll never kill again!" Rebirth is further supported by two books I have also been reading by Ian Stevenson - "Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect" (65 detailed reports) and " Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation" - which are very thought provoking. I see no reason why science would not support the truth of past rebirths, and, indeed, these books suggest it does (though using the term 'reincarnation'). I found this booklet very helpful - some of it was new to me, and I am still considering the four manifestations of rebirth-producing kamma to the dying. Because of my unfamiliarity with these manifestations, it seems strange and is not immediately acceptable to me, but I'll reflect on it. How one dies may determine ones future destiny - but I wonder if anyone really can control or influence their own or another's mind moments when they are dying? metta, Christine --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks Rob - looks interesting, this should keep me busy for quite a > while :) > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > Great News! > > > > I found a book that I think will address your questions on the role > > of kamma in dying and rebirth. It also happens to be available on- > > line. > > > > http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/dying2live.htm > > > > Let me know if this helps. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob :-) 14690 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics and Thinking - For Howard Hi, Rob - In a message dated 8/3/02 7:19:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Hi Howard, > > I must admit that I have not been following the whole message > stream, but perhaps this posting of mine from a couple of weeks back > might be relevant. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > =============================== It may well be relevant, and I thank you for it. I have one question, though, with regard to "1. An external object is reproduced at the mind door": What is the referred to reproduction? Is it a repetition of the very same visual image, or is it a memory of same? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14691 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Howard I hope you don't mind me butting in here on this post of yours to Rob K :-)) I would like to add some comments on one or two of your points. 1. "The worldling phenomenalist and the worldling "realist" have the same experiences, but interpret them differently, with the phenomenalist ... being less willing to posit the existence of unknowable things." I'm don't know if you're implying this, but the teachings do not urge us to 'posit the existence of unknowable things'. It is simply that the conditions by which rupas are said to arise, and the fact that they are said to arise in groups, clearly indicates that the abhidhamma perspective is that rupas do arise at times other than when they are the object of consciousness. At the same time, however, as you have pointed out previously, in terms of the development of the path, the teachings are clear that it is only what arises and forms part of the present moment of experience that has any direct relevance. These 2 propositions, the importance of the presently arising dhamma, and that dhamma only, as far as the development of the path is concerned, and the (alleged) fact of the arising of dhammas outside the present moment of experience, are not mutually exclusive nor even inconsistent with each other, as far as I can see. 2. " What is the rupa of sound in Abhidhamma? Is it an unknown external something, existing independently of citta, or is it the "internal" sound that is heard? (Or are they somehow the same?)" I believe that the abhidhamma explains sound as originating from the contact of the hardness of 2 or more sets of rupas. In abhidhamma terms, sound is not regarded as being 'internal' or 'external' depending on whether or not it is experienced by citta. 3. "...how do you understand the mutual conditionality between vi~n~nana and namarupa in some formulations of patticasamupada? I take namarupa as consisting of the body of mental and physical phenomena that can serve as objects for consciousness, i.e., to be "the all". Do you, instead, take 'namarupa' to refer to the mind-enlivened body, the physical body of a living being, and interpret paticcasamupada only in the 3- lifetime sense?" I may not have understood your point here, but the links of paticca-samuppada apply only to those namas and rupas that constitute what is conventionally known as a being, and not to the non-animate rupas. Finally, a question that has been puzzling me about this discussion. You have pointed out on a number of occasions that things not presently experienced are `unknowable'. On what basis then do you assert that these unknowable things do not exist? It seems to me that if something is unknowable, its non- existence can no more be asserted than its existence. Jon --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > ============================= > It seems to me that you are saying that there is some existent thing, > out in "the physical world" (which is something not directly known but > inferred to include things which sense bases, also in that "world", contact) > - something separate from and independent of discernment by a sentient being, > and which we call a 'sound'. There is also that "content of consciousness", > that arammana, which we also call a 'sound', *resulting* from contact of the > ear base with that "thing in the world" we call a sound. There seems to be an > "external sound", contact with which produces the "internal sound" that is > heard, which is the arammana to our auditory citta. This is the standard > dualist view, I think, of how things are. The phenomenalist view, however, is > that it is only what I call the "internal sounds" that are ever directly > known or knowable, and the radical phenomenalist view adds that what is in > principle unknowable, is pragmatically nonexistent. The worldling > phenomenalist and the worldling "realist" have the same experiences, but > interpret them differently, with the phenomenalist more readily applying > Occam's razor, being less willing to posit the existence of unknowable > things. > What is the rupa of sound in Abhidhamma? Is it an unknown external > something, existing independently of citta, or is it the "internal" sound > that is heard? (Or are they somehow the same?) > BTW, you write that the sound conditions the citta, but not > vice-versa, because sound can exist without being experienced. In that > regard, how do you understand the mutual conditionality between vi~n~nana and > namarupa in some formulations of patticasamupada? I take namarupa as > consisting of the body of mental and physical phenomena that can serve as > objects for consciousness, i.e., to be "the all". Do you, instead, take > 'namarupa' to refer to the mind-enlivened body, the physical body of a living > being, and interpret paticcasamupada only in the 3-lifetime sense? (I do > recognize that as a correct interpretation, just not the only correct one.) > > With metta, > Howard 14692 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 3:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism study (rumoured) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > Hi Jon. Ramble alert. Noted ;-) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< [Rob:] ha ha. well I finally got this post, just in time for a good chuckle. yup, what's fun is to know you're on one extreme or the other and to just see it as 'conditions'. It's like the 'path' itself. I stopped being so impatient when I suddenly got a view of how gigantic it was, way beyond what I could even imagine seeing, like the universe itself. Or when I saw the Himalayas for the first time [1 out of 2]. You think: 'Well that's impossible; they're not there.' Then you have to give up, and realize there are some things so much bigger than you, that it's ridiculous. How small we are. One's own nature is like that too. The years that I spent trying to change myself by main force. At some point you give up and contribute 'what you are' to the situation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Jon:] This is very true, Rob, and well put (I had a similar awesome first view of the Himalayas). In my own case however, I have found that such reluctant submission to the reality of the situation is more likely to be just another ploy by wrong view and other kilesas, than a clear appreciation of the true nature of the situation. But thanks for the reminder about acceptance of the 'what is' rather than trying to see the 'what I think should be'. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< [Rob:] So here we are, covering both ends of intention without having the capacity to intend anything in the first place. None of this has anything to do with the jhanas, but that's okay. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Jon:] And if it's nothing more than the blind leading the blind, well, at least we are accepting the 'what we are' :-)) When we get around to it, that is ... Jon PS There are quite a number of posts from you in my 'reply to' folder that I have been working on this weekend. I was tempted to try and consolidate some of them, to save others being swamped by our multiple (and marathon) exchanges, but will probably take the easy way out and send them out one-by-one (in order received, as usual). 14693 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 3:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha, samadhi & jhanas Rob Ep <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: I have heard samatha and samadhi used somewhat interchangeably. I think that you would obviously disagree, and say that samadhi can be abused, but not samatha. There are others of course who use samadhi in the same positive sense; they would not define it as samadhi if it is an unskillful form of concentration, since samadhi is the height of skillful concentration. It is possible they can be used interchangeably in the kusala sense, and that some other terms should be used for concentration-lobotomy and bliss addiction. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Jon:] No doubt samadhi can be found used in any number of ways, but I think we are concerned here with its meaning in the texts. As I said in an earlier post to Howard, samadhi is sometimes used as a synonym for samatha, but at other times it has its own meaning (concentration) and in that context can be either kusala or akusala. In my view, the commentaries are the only reliable guide to the correct interpretation of the individual suttas. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< [Rob:] So you feel that Buddha was not prescribing the jhanas, but simply acknowledging them as one possible positive support for development of the path? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Jon:] Yes, that's more or less it. I do not read the Buddha as prescribing the jhanas for everyone as a necessary precondition for the development of satipatthana and the insight that leads to enlightenment. But samatha is indeed a high level of (non-path) kusala and as such is to be developed at every opportunity. And for the benefit of those who had already developed samatha to the level of jhana, or who had the potential to do so, the Buddha gave a number of instructions on the development of insight based on the jhana experience (including, for example, the Anapanasati Sutta and the 'mindfulness of breathing' section in the Satipatthana Sutta). Jon 14694 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 3:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Supportive spiritual practices Rob Ep <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > Among other psychophysical disciplines that come out of spiritual tradition, there are some things in common with yoga and some that diverge. For instance, t'ai chi and yoga both have techniques that increase circulation of prana/ch'i; but they do it in different ways. They both have the overall goal to spiritualize both the body and mind; they both have a set of postures through which the spiritual energy and awareness is brought into the body. Yoga has stretch which not only makes the body more flexible and open, but opens up of the nadis [psychic nerve passageways] as well; T'ai Chi opens the psychic nerve passageways without a lot of stretching. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Jon:] But pointing out aspects in common doesn't really prove anything, in fact only confuses the issue. There can be any number of similarities between 2 teachings, but it is the differences that one needs to appreciate. Trying to be ecumenical about it is to miss the point entirely, in my view ;-)) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< [Rob:] Buddha may well have taken the benefits of seclusion and simple living from the ascetics; sitting posture and perhaps breathing meditation from the yogis; he may have mirrored the eightfold ashtanga yoga path in his eightfold path, while covering a much different series of elements. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Jon:] Interesting, Rob, but purely speculative, I think :-)) In any event, I am not sure how useful such a line of inquiry would be. To regard the Buddha and his teachings as an outgrowth of the time and place in which the Buddha was born is of course the conventional (non-dhamma) perspective. According to the Dhamma, however, we are a product of our own kamma and accumulated knowledge and tendencies, rather than of our forebears and the society into which we are born, so to view the teachings in the light you suggest would run counter to the teachings themselves. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< [Rob:] I think that like the genius he was, Buddha both took and transcended elements of the spiritual culture of his time, and in an evolved form brought them to the level of supreme wisdom and supreme vehicle. To see the evolutionary connections between systems is not to undermine Buddha's teaching; it is to see the way in which world, spiritual culture, and Buddha may interact, and perhaps give a context for understanding, which, living at a much later time, we may not easily have. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Jon:] This reminds me of a previous comment of yours to the effect that the teachings are not complete in themselves (in doctrinal terms) and need to be supplemented, and perhaps this view goes hand in hand with what you are saying here. Further discussion along these lines would indeed require investigation outside the teachings themselves. Would this be an approach you see as having value? Jon 14695 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting the Anapanasati Sutta into practice Victor --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hi, Jon, > > If you are making effort to put the instruction on being mindful of > breathing as set out in the Anapanasati Sutta into practice, and if there is any > part of the instruction that you don't understand, then it might be a > good idea to bring up your questions on what you don't understand to > the dsg members' attention. In this way, you might get some > responses that are helpful to your development of mindfulness of > breathing, if you are making effort to develop it in the first place. > > Regards, > Victor I happen to think that the Anapanasati Sutta was taught for the benefit of those already competent in anapanasati as an aspect of samatha, and not was not being suggested as a general practice in itself for the development of insight. That's why I was interested to hear something about your own views as to what the Buddha is saying in the sutta, and whether you see anything in the sutta that has particular application to the likes of you and me ;-)) Jon 14696 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics and Thinking - For Howard Hi Howard, The word "memory" has many connotations. Let's go back to first principles: - The first sense door thought process had an external object (rupa). That external object lasted the duration of one thought process (17 cittas), so the external object (rupa) no longer exists for the second and subsequent thought processes (mind door processes) - If the external object was a "very great object", the registration cittas "mark" the object. An important note here is that the registration cittas are vipaka... they link back to the "stimulus" and are not concerned with our "response" (javana). - Once an object is "marked", it can be used by the following mind door thought process. The subsequent mind door process uses as an object whatever the investigating citta of the sense door process passed to the determining citta of the sense door process. My understanding therefore is that the object of the mind door process will be a duplication what the investigating citta of the sense door object passed to the determining object of the sense door process. I would not call this "memory" as what is passed is a specific object. Our normal usaing of "memory" involves an imperfect recollection of concepts, feelings, emotions, etc. I haven't researched "memory" yet... I'm looking forward to it. You might want to check out pages 4, 38 and 39 of my Class Notes (Now on-line in the "files" section. There are some tables and diagrams that might be useful. I am 95% confident in what I have posted above. I would welcome any corrections from other DSG members. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 8/3/02 7:19:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> > writes: > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > I must admit that I have not been following the whole message > > stream, but perhaps this posting of mine from a couple of weeks back > > might be relevant. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > =============================== > It may well be relevant, and I thank you for it. I have one question, > though, with regard to "1. An external object is reproduced at the mind > door": What is the referred to reproduction? Is it a repetition of the very > same visual image, or is it a memory of same? > > With metta, > Howard 14697 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 4:24pm Subject: What was wrong with Ananda? Hi All, My class on Metta went well. I was giving the background to the Metta Sutta and decided to end on a lighter note. I concluded, "So at the end, as is often the case of the Suttas, everybody got enlightened and lived hapily ever after (this time it was 500 monks)." I then wondered aloud, "The Buddha was such a powerful teacher that people were always getting enlightened around him. Sometimes only a few words from the Buddha were enough to do the job. It makes me wonder about the case of Ananda. He listened to and remembered every word the Buddha said for decades, yet did not gain enlightenment until after the Buddha parinibbana." Nobody in the class had any theories. Anybody here have any ideas? Thanks, Rob M :-) 14698 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I didn't intend to draw any particular distinction. It was more a case of > wanting to avoid using 'meditation', because of the different things it > means to different people. I've since realised that 'seated > contemplation' probably suffers from the same shortcoming, so I am now > using 'sitting', following Bh Bodhi's translation in 'Numerical Discourses > of the Buddha'. > > Jon [Rob:] <> [Jon:] I am interested in the traditional interpretation of the texts, rather than the traditions practised by Buddhist communities, since I think the latter can sometimes be unsupported by the texts. I am thinking for example of certain practices relating to death and dying, conception and birth, transference of merit, ordination into the order, contact with or knowledge about the departed, and so on. As regards the actual texts, there is to my knowledge no reference to either 'walking meditation' or 'meditation' pure and simple. There is a Pali term that refers to walking back and forth on a prepared walkway, but this does not in itself connote meditation as that term is or may be understood by most current-day readers. Anyway, what do you mean by 'walking meditation'? Is it something that complements 'sitting meditation', or is it a different practice in itself? Jon 14699 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: <> [Jon:] You seem to be suggesting that unless it can be shown that 'meditation' (whatever that may mean if this context) has been specifically excluded by the Buddha *in a particular sutta* that it should be taken as an acceptable means of practice for the purposes of that sutta. That would mean ignoring other suttas (like the Satipatthana Sutta, which has been the subject of this thread up to now -- not trying to change the subject, I hope ;-) ) which might suggest that the Buddha's actual views were to the contrary (particularly in the passage I quoted in my earlier post). Would you agree that the Anapanasati Sutta is an elaboration of a particular passage within the Satipatthana Sutta and, as such, should be read in the overall context of the Satipatthana Sutta? [Rob:] <> [Jon:] The sutta talks about *mindfulness of breathing* and its development, so I wonder what specifically you mean by *breathing meditation* and why you prefer this way of referring to the sutta. Where exactly is the reference to 'meditation' in the sutta? Do the 2 terms mean the same to you or something different? [Rob:] <> [Jon:] I have no argument whatsoever about the significance or importance of mindfulness of breathing (anapanasati), either as an aspect of samatha (and in that regard as a means of attaining jhana), or as part of the first of the 4 foundations of mindfulness. I believe however that each of these 2 meanings of mindfulness of breathing/anapanasati needs to be understood quite separately. (Neither, by the way, is referred to in the texts as breathing meditation.) You ask why, out of all the 'practices', mindfulness of breathing has been singled out for its own sutta. If we had access to the commentary we would probably have an authoratitive anser to that question. My own thoughts on this (for what they are worth) are that mindfulness of breathing *as an aspect of samatha* was a fairly widespread practice amongst ascetics at the time of the Buddha, with many attaining to the level of jhana, and it was for the benefit of monks with this level of attainment and others like them or potentially so, i.e., skilled in samatha but not yet attained to enlightenment, that the Anapanasati Sutta was taught. Jon 14700 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > <> [Jon:] The purpose of meditation, generally speaking, is to focus on particular (chosen) things by excluding others. This is done, as I understand it, so as to perceive the chosen things more clearly, or perhaps to perceive the qualities of impermanence or not-self. Satipatthana is the direct experience at some level of a presently-appearing dhamma, as it truly is. The difference between the two may not be readily apparent, but it has to do with perceiving whatever is as it actually is rather than perceiving what is really our preconceived idea of how things are. This as I see it is the danger in focussing on what we believe to be dhammas, or in trying to see by directed attention what we believe to be the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta as we understand them to be. Jon 14701 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 5:20pm Subject: Re: Formal meditation practice (was, Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice) Rob Ep You invited (challenged?) me to come in on this exchange between Robert K and yourself, so here I am ;-)) --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > <> [Jon:] Just a slight clarification here, Rob. I think what I probably said was that the teachings do not talk about formal meditation practice, in the sense of making a distinction between that and daily life/daily life practice, nor in my view do they prescribe sitting, slow walking/moving, or selecting a particular object or range of objects as being practices conducive to the development of insight. I would not ascribe this view to the Abhidhamma in particular, but rather to an understanding of the suttas read together with the commentaries and the Abhidhamma (it is after all a subject spoken of at length in the sutta texts). The comment about formal practice taking one away form the present moment is not something I have seen stated as such in the texts, but is an attempt at an explanation of the difference between awareness naturally arising on the one hand and directed attention on the other. Jon 14702 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 5:27pm Subject: Monk to deva --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > > I loved the story of the Bhikkhu who Became a Deva as a result of > Habitual Kamma (practicing Vipassana meditation) and was born in > Tavatimsa heaven. He was meditating so attentively that he didn't > know he had died and become a deva, he thought the thousand devis who > rushed out to welcome their master were lay devotees, practised self- > restraint and lowered his eyes. Once they brought a full length > mirror and he realised what had happened he was aghast, wouldn't go > outside his Mansion for fear of temptation. He used his powers to > visit the Buddha in the human realm (followed by his thousand > companions:), got precise meditation instructions and became a > sotapanna. > > ____________________ Dear Christine, In case you were interested in more details of what the Buddha said to the Deva: Samyutta Nikaya sagathavagga (devatasamyutta) Translation by Bodhi p122 46(6)Accharaasutta.m Deva: Resounding with a host of Nymphs, Haunted by a host of demons! This grove is to be called deluding How does one escape from it? "Accharaaga.nasa"nghu.t.tha.m, pisaacaga.nasevita.m; vananta.m mohana.m naama, katha.m yaatraa bhavissatii"ti. The Buddha: The straight way that path is called, And fearless is its destination. The chariot is called 'unrattling', Fitted with wheels of wholesome states, "Ujuko naama so maggo, abhayaa naama saa disaa; ratho akuujano naama, dhammacakkehi sa.myuto. The sense of shame (hiri) is its leaning board Mindfulness its upholstery I call the Dhamma the charioteer, With right view running out in front, "Hirii tassa apaalambo, satyassa parivaara.na.m; dhammaaha.m saarathi.m bruumi, sammaadi.t.thipurejava.m. One who has such a vehicle Whether woman or man Has, by means of this vehicle, Drawn close to nibbana "Yassa etaadisa.m yaana.m, itthiyaa purisassa vaa; sa ve etena yaanena, nibbaanasseva santike"ti The phrase "sammaadi.t.thipurejava.m." [with]right view running out in front is explained in the commentary: Sammaadi.t.thipurejavanti vipassanaasammaadi.t.thipurejavaa assa pubbayaayikaati sammaadi.t.thipurejavo, ta.m sammaadi.t.thipurejava.m. Yathaa hi pa.thamatara.m raajapurisehi kaa.naku.ni-aadiina.mniihara.nena magge sodhite pacchaa raajaa nikkha mati, evameva.m vipassanaa sammaadi.t.thiyaa aniccaadivasena khandhaadiisu sodhitesu pacchaa bhuumiladdhava.t.ta.m parijaanamaanaa maggasammaadi.t.thi uppajjati. Tena vutta.m "dhammaaha.m saarathi.m bruumi, sammaadi.t.thipurejavan"ti. Which essentially means that the insight into the 5 khandhas as anicca (impermanent) is vipassana rightview which clears the way for magga sammaditthi (path right view), enlightenment. (It gives the analogy of the Kings servants who clear the path before the King comes out) sodhitesu -- one who cleanses parijaanamaanaa-- knowledge, ascertainment raaja-- King uppajjati- to arise Upon completing( ni.t.thaapetvaa avasaane ) the discourse( desana.m ) the Buddha (bhagavaa) explained( diipesi) the four [noble] truths( cattaari saccaani)> at the completion of this discourse (Desanaapariyosaane) the Deva was fixed (pati.t.thaasi) in the fruit of sotapatti (first stage of enlightenment) (sotaapattiphale ) . Iti bhagavaa desana.m ni.t.thaapetvaa avasaane cattaari saccaani diipesi. Desanaapariyosaane devaputto sotaapattiphale pati.t.thaasi 14703 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha, Samadhi and Right Concentration Howard --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Rob) - -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Please excuse me for butting in. -------------------------------------------------- You're most welcome, as ever, Howard :-)) -------------------------------------------------- Howard: How's this? Samatha is a condition for the development of samadhi. Actually, they are mutually supportive, but the stating of calm as leading to concentration is frequent. (Generally, an upset mind has trouble concentrating, and a calm mind has little trouble.) As you say, calm is precondition for the jhanas, with calm easing the way to increasing one-pointedness. In many places, the first four jhanas are the definition of right concentration. (Yes, right concentration is also defined otherwise in a few places, but most often and prominently as the first four jhanas.) And right concentration is one of the factors of the 8-fold path, none of which do I recall reading is expendable. Pa~n~na is what directly leads to liberation, and mindfulness is probably the chief factor leading to wisdom itself. Mindfulness, of course, fosters calm and concentration, which in turn foster more mindfulness. What I don't understand is why you seem to wish to downplay concentration and calm. Even if they don't take a leadership role, what bothers you about them? Right effort is another thing that seems to bother you a bit. My guess is that you are concerned with an emphasis on these leading to or springing from an atta view which accepts a controlling agent. Am I correct in that? -------------------------------------------------- [Jon:] To my understanding, kusala of any kind is developed, i.e. becomes stronger, by nurturing, or building on, the existing accumulations of (weaker) kusala, that is to say, by knowing the kusala when it arises and by understanding the importance of its cultivation. The arising/manifesting of this existing (weaker) kusala, which for most of the time remains latent within our accumulations, is dependent on conditions that include an appropriate opportunity and an appreciation of the value of that specific form of kusala and, in the case of insight in particular, correct intellectual understanding of the different dhammas that make up the world as we know it, and of the nature and function of the those various dhammas, so that there is a proper idea of the potential object of insight. That being the case, my own perspective on the factors you mention is that many people are far too preoccupied with them, to the detriment of the study of the presently appearing reality. And yes, I do see an insidious idea of ability to control (= idea of self) lurking behind the idea that 'effort put forth to develop kusala will result in more kusala being developed'. To put my 'concerns' in a nutshell, I do not understand the Buddha to be saying that kusala can be developed by *directed attention* or *conscious effort* and, in particular, I don't read him as saying that insight is developed by directed attention to a *selected object or range of objects*. On your point about Right Concentration being one of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, this of course I recognise (and for some it needs to be emphasised that it is concentration and not calm that is the factor). To my understanding, this concentration, together with the path factor of Right Effort and other path factors, is fostered and nurtured by the actual moments of awareness and right understanding that occur, which is why in the teachings (and particularly in the Satipatthana Sutta) awareness is emphasised above all other path factors (always the leader). Jon 14704 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 6:03pm Subject: Re: Monk to deva Dear Robert, This is great! Thanks for these extra details, much appreciated. metta, Christine --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > > I loved the story of the Bhikkhu who Became a Deva as a result > of > > Habitual Kamma (practicing Vipassana meditation) and was born in > > Tavatimsa heaven. He was meditating so attentively that he didn't > > know he had died and become a deva, he thought the thousand devis > who > > rushed out to welcome their master were lay devotees, practised > self- > > restraint and lowered his eyes. Once they brought a full length > > mirror and he realised what had happened he was aghast, wouldn't > go > > outside his Mansion for fear of temptation. He used his powers to > > visit the Buddha in the human realm (followed by his thousand > > companions:), got precise meditation instructions and became a > > sotapanna. > > > > ____________________ > > Dear Christine, > In case you were interested in more details of what the Buddha said > to the Deva: > Samyutta Nikaya sagathavagga (devatasamyutta) Translation by Bodhi > p122 > > 46(6)Accharaasutta.m > Deva: > Resounding with a host of Nymphs, > Haunted by a host of demons! > This grove is to be called deluding > How does one escape from it? > "Accharaaga.nasa"nghu.t.tha.m, pisaacaga.nasevita.m; > vananta.m mohana.m naama, katha.m yaatraa bhavissatii"ti. > The Buddha: > The straight way that path is called, > And fearless is its destination. > The chariot is called 'unrattling', > Fitted with wheels of wholesome states, > "Ujuko naama so maggo, abhayaa naama saa disaa; > ratho akuujano naama, dhammacakkehi sa.myuto. > > > The sense of shame (hiri) is its leaning board > Mindfulness its upholstery > I call the Dhamma the charioteer, > With right view running out in front, > "Hirii tassa apaalambo, satyassa parivaara.na.m; > dhammaaha.m saarathi.m bruumi, sammaadi.t.thipurejava.m. > > One who has such a vehicle > Whether woman or man > Has, by means of this vehicle, > Drawn close to nibbana > "Yassa etaadisa.m yaana.m, itthiyaa purisassa vaa; > sa ve etena yaanena, nibbaanasseva > santike"ti > > > The phrase "sammaadi.t.thipurejava.m." [with]right view running out > in front is explained in the commentary: > Sammaadi.t.thipurejavanti vipassanaasammaadi.t.thipurejavaa assa > pubbayaayikaati sammaadi.t.thipurejavo, > ta.m sammaadi.t.thipurejava.m. Yathaa hi pa.thamatara.m > raajapurisehi kaa.naku.ni-aadiina.mniihara.nena magge sodhite > pacchaa raajaa nikkha > mati, evameva.m vipassanaa sammaadi.t.thiyaa aniccaadivasena > khandhaadiisu sodhitesu pacchaa bhuumiladdhava.t.ta.m > parijaanamaanaa > maggasammaadi.t.thi uppajjati. Tena vutta.m "dhammaaha.m saarathi.m > bruumi, sammaadi.t.thipurejavan"ti. > > Which essentially means that the insight into the 5 khandhas as > anicca (impermanent) is vipassana rightview which clears the way for > magga sammaditthi (path right view), enlightenment. (It gives the > analogy of the Kings servants who clear the path before the King > comes out) > sodhitesu -- one who cleanses > parijaanamaanaa-- knowledge, ascertainment > raaja-- King > uppajjati- to arise > > > Upon completing( ni.t.thaapetvaa avasaane ) the discourse( > desana.m ) the Buddha (bhagavaa) explained( diipesi) the four > [noble] truths( cattaari saccaani)> at the completion of this > discourse (Desanaapariyosaane) the Deva was fixed (pati.t.thaasi) in > the fruit of sotapatti (first stage of enlightenment) > (sotaapattiphale ) . > > Iti bhagavaa desana.m ni.t.thaapetvaa avasaane cattaari saccaani > diipesi. Desanaapariyosaane devaputto sotaapattiphale pati.t.thaasi 14705 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 6:05pm Subject: Re: What was wrong with Ananda? Hi Rob M, My understanding is that Ananda had reached the first stage of enlightenment (Sotapanna) before the Buddha passed away. Isn't that what a 'learner' (sekha) is? Could it be possible that his many administrative duties and his personal care of the Buddha did not allow him the time that others had to practice? Could it have been kamma and accumulations? metta, Christine "Ananda's Grief 32. Then the Venerable Ananda went into the vihara and leaned against the doorpost and wept: "I am still but a learner,[ and still have to strive for my own perfection. But, alas, my Master, who was so compassionate towards me, is about to pass away!" 33. And the Blessed One spoke to the bhikkhus, saying: "Where, bhikkhus, is Ananda?" "The Venerable Ananda, Lord, has gone into the vihara and there stands leaning against the door post and weeping: 'I am still but a learner, and still have to strive for my own perfection. But, alas, my Master, who was so compassionate towards me, is about to pass away!'" 34. Then the Blessed One asked a certain bhikkhu to bring the Venerable Ananda to him, saying: "Go, bhikkhu, and say to Ananda, 'Friend Ananda, the Master calls you.'" "So be it, Lord." And that bhikkhu went and spoke to the Venerable Ananda as the Blessed One had asked him to. And the Venerable Ananda went to the Blessed One, bowed down to him, and sat down on one side. 35. Then the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ananda, saying: "Enough, Ananda! Do not grieve, do not lament! For have I not taught from the very beginning that with all that is dear and beloved there must be change, separation, and severance? Of that which is born, come into being, compounded, and subject to decay, how can one say: 'May it not come to dissolution!'? There can be no such state of things. Now for a long time, Ananda, you have served the Tathagata with loving-kindness in deed, word, and thought, graciously, pleasantly, with a whole heart and beyond measure. Great good have you gathered, Ananda! Now you should put forth energy, and soon you too will be free from the taints."" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > My class on Metta went well. I was giving the background to the > Metta Sutta and decided to end on a lighter note. I concluded, "So > at the end, as is often the case of the Suttas, everybody got > enlightened and lived hapily ever after (this time it was 500 > monks)." > > I then wondered aloud, "The Buddha was such a powerful teacher that > people were always getting enlightened around him. Sometimes only a > few words from the Buddha were enough to do the job. It makes me > wonder about the case of Ananda. He listened to and remembered every > word the Buddha said for decades, yet did not gain enlightenment > until after the Buddha parinibbana." > > Nobody in the class had any theories. Anybody here have any ideas? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14706 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 6:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The value of samatha (was, Right Concentration) Rob Ep (again!) You suggest in the post below that the obvious explanation for the frequent mention in the suttas of the cultivation of samatha is the fact that it leads directly to greater understanding (in your view). Well, I think there are a number of other possible explanations for this. First, the Buddha taught extensively about all kinds of kusala, whether or not the kusala was capable of leading one out of samsara. The importance of developing kusala regardless of its level cannot be overestimated. Samatha in fact is a very high degree of kusala, the jhanas themselves being a condition for rebirth in planes available only to those who develop the jhanas (a sort of exclusive jhana-club). Secondly because, being kusala that is performed through the mind door alone, samatha can be developed by an individual living a solitary life, for whom generally speaking there will be large parts of the day when there are not likely to be opportunities for other forms of kusala (dana and sila). Thirdly, there are a number of suttas (the Anapanasati Sutta among them) where the Buddha gave instruction to monks already well-practised in samatha on how insight could be developed in conjunction with the development of samatha. The reason why this was necessary is I believe that insight cannot be developed at actual moments of jhana, and without this instruction monks who have already attained the jhanas, or are potential contenders for jhana, would not have known how to attain the higher goal of insight based on jhana. Jon --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: > <> 14707 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 7:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The purpose of samatha (was, Right Concentration) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein <<>> wrote: <> [Jon:] My understanding is that while there is a correlation between the development of samatha and the suppression of the hindrances, there is no necessary correlation between the development of samatha and the development of insight. That is to say, a person may develop samatha, even to the attainment of the jhanas, without at the same time developing insight into the true nature of dhammas (this indeed is what happens during times when the teachings have disappeared completely) and, conversely, insight into the true nature of dhammas can be developed by anyone regardless of their present level of development of samatha. This also means that insight can be developed regardless of the fact that the hindrances have not been suppressed. This I believe is absolutely fundamental to the understanding of the Satipatthana Sutta (and please note in particular the passage "... a bhikkhu understands consciousness with lust, as with lust... with hate, as with hate ... with ignorance, as with ignorance ..."). The idea that once the hindrances are suppressed insight may freely arise is, in my view, mistaken. It seems to ignore the fact that insight can only arise to the extent that it has actually been developed, in other words, to the extent that the direct experience of dhammas has been cultivated, and dhammas here includes dhammas of all kinds (i.e., rupas and unwholesome mental states also), not just wholesome mental states. The cultivation of mundane jhana and the direct experience of dhammas are completely different skills. Jon PS I think this is the last post of yours in this series (phew!). Don't dare check my inbox in case you've had one of your bursts and replied to my weekend's work in a single sitting! 14708 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 7:22pm Subject: Vanceti -cheating dhammas "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I note that False Speech > includes writing or hand signals, and have always wondered if it > would include such things as not telling the full truth, or remaining > silent when one knows a false impression has been created. As well, > under Harsh Speech - I wonder about people who say that they use > harsh, derisive or insulting speech for 'the good of others', > to 'wake them up' ... a good intention or fooling themselves? ------------------------------- Dear Christine, This relates to a translation that Gayan did a couple of years ago about the Vanceti (based on the Netti-pakarana). These vanceti masquerade as kusala but are akusala, they are classified into 34 types. Number 17 is especially relevant http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3544 17: apisu.navaaditaapatiruupataaya anatthakaamataa va~ncetiiti yujjati. Gayan: "It is not a 'papakamma' to warn about a person ( or rather the evil qualities of such person ) to another for the well being of the 'other'. It is a good quality to warn ( and protect ) somebody from a possible harm.( a sappurisa quality ) Intention is the key here. Being 'silent' in such an occation 'thinking' " I will not say pisunavaca..." is a stage which needs to be further examined. In some minds there is this very minute 'anusaya dhatu' left that they sometimes have the secret delight in seeing harm happening to others. Anatthakamatha..... ( anattha - harm ). This cheats them . The point here is to check whether what's operating is genuine apisunavacata or a cheating akusala. ( and to be aware of the kusala as kusala , and the akusala as akusala )"" Robert 14709 From: egberdina Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 9:09pm Subject: Votthapana citta (was Re: Class Notes on-line! Hi Robert and Rob and all, I am thinking of changing my name to Rob. Peer pressure :-) Votthapana citta is a citta that functions independantly of kamma. It is the citta that precedes javana citta, where kamma is produced. The outcome of Votthapana citta ( a non-karmic event) determines karma. This is in line, at least, with Nyanatiloka's Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines. My take on this is: What you see is what you get. Any other thoughts on votthapana citta? All the best Herman --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > On the question of freewill please bring it up anytime; I believe it > is crucial part of the understanding of Anatta and bears directly on > how we interpret and thus practice the Dhamma. > Robert > > "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > > And you write in several places about how there is free will. I > am > > > Not sure that this is supported by the Abhidhamma. > > > > In "A Manual of Abhidhamma" by Narada (Abhidhammatthasangaha with > > commentary), P32-33, "After this comes that stage of > representative > > cognition termed the determining consciousness (Votthapana). > > Discrimination is exercised at this stage. Free will plays its > part > > here." In the same book, P146, "Sometimes the free will of a > person > > determines the mode of feeling independent of the nature of the > > object." > > > > I have seen the term "free will" used in other texts, but not in > the > > classical commentaries. One possible explanation is that the term > is > > a modern invention (just as "subconscious" or "unconscious" which, > I > > believe, sprang from modern psychology). > > > > I must admit that I am having some difficulty reconciling "free > > will" with anatta. There is a lot more that I need to understand > > about anatta and I am really looking forward to researching the > > subject. I see "free will" as a concept... useful in developing > > understanding, but not necessarily 100% technically accurate. > > > > At some point in the future, I plan to explore "free will" on- line > > with the DSG, but at the moment, I am not prepared. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 14710 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha, Samadhi and Right Concentration Hi Howard and All I need to correct something I said at the end of this post. I said: <> The last bit of the last sentence, beginning "which is why ..." etc, is incorrect. It is right view/understanding that is said to be the leader, not mindfulness. Awareness (sati) is said to be "a faculty in the sense of predominance. It exercises government (over associated states) by the characteristic of 'being present in', hence it is a controlling faculty". However, right view (ditthi, = panna) is the factor that is the forerunner/leader of the other path-factors. Apologies for any confusion. Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > [Jon:] > To my understanding, kusala of any kind is developed, i.e. becomes > stronger, by nurturing, or building on, the existing accumulations of > (weaker) kusala, that is to say, by knowing the kusala when it arises > and > by understanding the importance of its cultivation. > > The arising/manifesting of this existing (weaker) kusala, which for most > of the time remains latent within our accumulations, is dependent on > conditions that include an appropriate opportunity and an appreciation > of > the value of that specific form of kusala and, in the case of insight in > particular, correct intellectual understanding of the different dhammas > that make up the world as we know it, and of the nature and function of > the those various dhammas, so that there is a proper idea of the > potential > object of insight. > > That being the case, my own perspective on the factors you mention is > that > many people are far too preoccupied with them, to the detriment of the > study of the presently appearing reality. And yes, I do see an > insidious > idea of ability to control (= idea of self) lurking behind the idea that > 'effort put forth to develop kusala will result in more kusala being > developed'. > > To put my 'concerns' in a nutshell, I do not understand the Buddha to be > saying that kusala can be developed by *directed attention* or > *conscious > effort* and, in particular, I don't read him as saying that insight is > developed by directed attention to a *selected object or range of > objects*. > > On your point about Right Concentration being one of the factors of the > Noble Eightfold Path, this of course I recognise (and for some it needs > to > be emphasised that it is concentration and not calm that is the factor). > > To my understanding, this concentration, together with the path factor > of > Right Effort and other path factors, is fostered and nurtured by the > actual moments of awareness and right understanding that occur, which is > why in the teachings (and particularly in the Satipatthana Sutta) > awareness is emphasised above all other path factors (always the > leader). > > Jon 14711 From: egberdina Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 9:26pm Subject: Re: Animals Hi Robert, For my further study I would be very grateful if you could give me some Tipitaka references where your statement below is alluded to or further discussed. Until now I had always thought that it was not until last century that the likes of bacteria and viruses were "discovered". Happy to be corrected, of course. All the best Herman --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Andrew, You mention one- > celled 'animals'. In The Dhamma such things as bacteris or virus or > plants are not considered alive - they are simply complex > combinations of rupa, no nama. > 14712 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 9:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Dear Larry, I try to answer: op 03-08-2002 07:04 schreef <> op <>: > What is the difference between concentrating and compounding? In other > words, is concentration a matter of bringing cetasikas together, or is > it more like reducing as when we reduce milk to make it concentrated? N: Neither. Concentration fucusses on the object citta and cetasikas experience. It assists citta and cetasikas in experiencing one object at a time. That is why in the definition it is said: the welding together of associated states is its function. L: I see I made a mistake in thinking absorption concentration (appana > samadhi) is supramundane. Both access and absorption samadhis are > mundane unless the absorption samadhi has nibbana as an object; in which > case, it is supramundane. Correct? N: The lokuttara citta has nibbana as object and the accompanying samadhi has the strength of appana samadhi. Because of conditions. L: If so, my question should have been what makes a samadhi an appana > samadhi? >N: when calm has been developed to the degree of jhana the jhanacitta is accompanied by samadhi of the strength of appana samadhi. Those who develop the different stages of jhana (four or five depending on the system of counting jhanas) as well as insight, can have lokuttara cittas accompanied by the jhanafactors of these stages of jhana. They have lokuttara jhanacittas. Instead of eight lokuttara cittas there are then forty lokuttara cittas (five times eight, counting five stages of jhana). L: This question ties into my basic bewilderment about what is the purpose > of jhana. Can we say jhana is a particular kind of samadhi in which the > 5 hindrances are suppressed and its purpose is tranquility (samatha)? Is > tranquility an end in itself because of nearness to nibbana or could it > be the state of mind best suited to recognizing realities? N: When jhanacitta arises there are no sense impressions, and thus no hindrances on account of them. It is called After the jhanacittas have fallen away hindrances arise again. They are realities and these should be known as conditioned dhammas that are impermanent, dukkha, non-self. The calm of jhana cannot be called being near to nibbana, it does not automatically lead to nibbana, without the development of insight. Only when also insight (all stages ) has been developed nibbana can be attained. Is calm best suited to know realities? The answer is: pa~n~naa knows realities as they are, be it akusala or kusala, or kusala of the degree of jhana. When jhana has been attained, it has happened because of conditions. It is non-self. Arahats are different, with different distinctions: there are those who did not develop jhana, there are those who developed jhana and those who also had the four discriminative knowledges (patisambhiddas). Such difference in distinctions and talents happen because of conditions but what is most important: all of them eradicated defilements completely through pa~n~naa. Since jhana can be a base of insight should it not be developed first, is a question some people ask. The question, should we or shouldn't we, does not need to arise, because someone with the accumulated skills for jhana and the inclination to it, develops it already. If he has accumulated panna and develops insight, so that he has right understanding of the three characteristics of the jhanafactors after emerging from jhana, there are conditions that he can do so. Whatever we do or don't do, it all evolves because of conditions. L: Last question: can we practice jhana simply by working on suppressing > the hindrances? N: the question is how? They can only be temporarily subdued if the jhanafactors have been developed and many conditions pertaining to one's daily life have been fulfilled, as discussed before. One's life must be . No impediments coming from the place where one lives, noise is an enemy to jhana. The impediments coming from other people, or sick parents or relatives one has to look after, etc. They all are distracting from the meditation subject. Only when there is access concentration and attainment concentration there is such calm that it conditions the temporary subduing of the hindrances. Through enlightenment the hindrances are eradicated for good, stage by stage. Therefore nibbana is the cool, the true calm. This cannot happen if there is no awareness and right understanding of these akusala dhammas when they appear as non-self. Best wishes form Nina. 14713 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 9:56pm Subject: Perfections, Ch 3, no. 9 Perfections, Ch 3, no. 9: Again, he conceals his virtues and reveals his faults. He is few in his wishes, content, fond of solitude, aloof, capable of enduring suffering, and free from anxiety. He is not restless, puffed up, fickle, scurrilous or scattered in speech, but calm in his faculties and mind. Avoiding such wrong means of livelihood as scheming, etc., he is endowed with proper conduct and a suitable resort (for alms). He sees danger in the slightest faults, and having undertaken the rules of training, trains himself in them, energetic and resolute, without regard for body or life. He does not tolerate even the slightest concern for his body or life but abandons and dispels it; how much more, then, excessive concern? He abandons and dispels all the corruptions such as anger, malice, etc., which are the cause for moral depravity. He does not become complacent over some minor achievement of distinction and does not shrink away, but strives for successively higher achievements. In this way the achievements he gains do not partake of diminution or stagnation. The Great Man serves as a guide for the blind, explaining to them the right path. To the deaf he gives signals with gestures of his hands, and in that way benefits them with good. So too for the dumb. To cripples he gives a chair, or a vehicle, or some other means of conveyance. He strives that the faithless may gain faith, that the lazy may generate zeal, that those of confused mindfulness may develop mindfulness, that those with wandering minds may become accomplished in concentration, and that the dull-witted may acquire wisdom. He strives to dispel sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness-and-worry, and perplexity in those obsessed by these hindrances, and to dispel wrong thoughts of sensuality, illwill, and aggression in those subjugated by these thoughts. Out of gratitude to those who have helped him, he benefits and honours them with a similar or greater benefit in return, congenial in speech and endearing in his words. He is a companion in misfortune. Understanding the nature and character of beings, he associates with whatever beings need his presence, in whatever way they need it; and he practises together with whatever beings need to practise with him, in whatever way of practice is necessary for them. But he proceeds only by rehabilitating them from the unwholesome and establishing them in the wholesome, not in other ways. For in order to protect the minds of others, bodhisattvas behave only in ways which increase the wholesome. So too, because his inclination is to benefit others, he should never harm them, abuse them, humiliate them, arouse remorse in them, or incite them to act in ways which should be avoided. Nor should he place himself in a higher position than those who are of inferior conduct. He should be neither altogether inaccessible to others, nor too easily accessible, and he should not associate with others at the wrong time. He associates with beings whom it is proper to associate with at the appropriate time and place. He does not criticize those who are dear to others in front of them, nor praise those who are resented by them. He is not intimate with those who are not trustworthy. He does not refuse a proper invitation, or engage in persuasion, or accept excessively. Síla of performance, cĺritta síla, is very subtle and refined, and we should consider it at the present moment with sati sampajannĺ. For example, when a dear friend does something wrong, one may be off guard and blame him immediately in front of others. But when sati sampajannĺ arises, one will wait for the proper opportunity and speak to him later on. This shows that defilements have to be worn off time and again, until they eventually will be completely eradicated. ******* 14714 From: Anders Honore Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 10:21pm Subject: forwarding to list Sarah and I have been discussing via email recently, and she proposed that I forwarded parts of it to the list for discussion, which I also felt appropriate: ======== Anders: > No, this is not so. I am more than well-versed in > both the Pali and Mahayana > Canon (though not nearly as well-versed in the Pali > Canon as many of your > are) and I have found such study to be a great > benefit. I still do. > > However, it has to be done skilfully, and much of > what is done seems to be > grasping the tail instead of the head of the ox. > Allow me to clarify: > > I think we can easily agree that the understanding > of the Dhamma is > antecedent to the spoken Dhamma. > > However, the trend I see is a tendency to grasp the > spoken Dhamma as > understanding of Dhamma. When they should be > reversing the light towards > what the mind already holds, namely, ages of > accumulated delusion, they > instead add more views to this already deluded mind, > and stick the label of > wisdom/Dhamma on it. > > Skilful study of the scriptures is in two parts: > > Study of the practise of Dhamma/ > > Study of the understanding of Dhamma/ > > Study of the practise of Dhamma is usually quite > straightforward. It tells > you what to do, in order to attain proper > understanding of the Dhamma. The > trap for some is that they bring up practises which > they do not yet have > capacity to carry out, because of lack of > understanding or otherwise. > > Study of the understanding of Dhamma is not so > straightforward. Here it is > necessary not to grasp at the written or spoken word > as the Dhamma itself, > but rather, to seek the understanding that produced > these words, which is > antecedent to the written word itself, an > understanding independent of > forms and conventions, which can thus be employed > freely according > circumstances. > > Knowledge of the Dhamma should not be confused with > understanding of the > Dhamma. For this reason, the Buddha himself said: > > One whose doctrines aren't clean -- > fabricated, formed, given preference > when he sees it to his own advantage -- > relies on a peace > dependent > on what can be shaken. > > Because entrenchments in views > aren't easily overcome > when considering what's grasped > among doctrines, > that's why > a person embraces or rejects a doctrine -- > in light of these very > entrenchments. > [Sutta Nipata IV.3] > > > Do you understand these words? I am not sure, > because I have brought up such > quotes often in dsg, and they are rarely addressed. > > Since I want to make this point absolutely clear, I > offer a more in-depth > commentary: > > One whose doctrines aren't clean -- > fabricated, formed, given preference > > ========== > > What are the signs of a person with unclean > doctrines: They are fabricated, > formed. How so? They have come into being in his > mind. Ways that they can > have come into being is through reliance on the > senses, that which is seen, > heard, read, or even thought it. This is the case > for all practitioners who > have not awakened. They can only rely on the words > spoken by others, and so > their doctrine becomes fabricated. To this, they > lend preference, obviously. > As I am sure you think higher of teachings of the > Pali Canon, than that of > the Moslem fundamentalists, for instance, or even > Mahayana. Thus it is in > connection with your own self that you lend > preference to certain teachings. > > From this, we can gather that a clean doctrine is > that which is fabricated, > isn't formed. How is this found? What is formed? > What is fabricated? All > that is the product of ignorance is such. Mental > fabrications are the direct > product of ignorance and tainted with it. With the > cessation of ignorance, > so is the cessation of mental fabrications. Thus we > can discern that the > pure Dhamma is not found in the realm of thoughts, > of views. > > ========= > > when he sees it to his own advantage -- > relies on a peace > dependent > on what can be shaken. > > ========= > > Moreover, because his understanding and practise > relies on that which is > fabricated, it can be shaken. It is not unshakeable > knowledge, and thus, it > ultimately is not different in nature from the views > of fundamentalists, > oppressors and ill-doers. The difference lies in that > the views of the Dhamma > leads to the undoing of suffering, whereas the views > of the others, lead to > more suffering. However, they are intrinsically the > same, in that they are > unclean doctrine, and are not unshakeable. They can > be influenced by that > which is seen, heard and read. In short, by the > senses. > > ========= > > Because entrenchments in views > aren't easily overcome > when considering what's grasped > among doctrines, > that's why > a person embraces or rejects a doctrine -- > in light of these very > entrenchments. > > ================= > > The final part makes it clear that it is exactly > because of entrenchment in > views, that a person accepts or rejects a doctrine, > regardless of whether it > is a skilful or unskilful doctrine. > > This also provides the key to how one attains to a > clean doctrine, which is > not fabricated, not formed, not dependent on the > senses. By overcoming > entrenchment in views. The Dhamma too, the Dhamma > that is fabricated, is > part of entrenchment in views. > > From the perspective of dependent origination, all > views must be > relinquished, because they are product of ignorance, > and in order to get > beyond that ignorance, to find a doctrine that is > unformed, one must also go > beyond that which ignorance manifests in: Views. > This is not to say that > these views should be destroyed or forgotten. This > would be advocating the > annihilation of dhammas. However, they should be > comprehended, it should be > comprehended that views form a false reality, and > because of that > relinquished. > > ================ > > Feel free to make your comments on this. But > however, I would encourage you > to contemplate these words for an extended period of > time, and see how they > work in practise. > > ........ > > As far as I am concerned, none of what I wrote is > based on what I remember > from the scriptures, or I what I have thought myself it > out to be. I speak from > my direct perception of what I perceive things to > be. It just so happens > that much of this is I find in accord with the > written Dhamma. Those > points where I don't, I acknowledge my delusion, and > dependence on belief. > > ....... > > As for questioning or challenging what I say, I > would encourage this. But I > wish that people would spend as much time > questioning their own views, > examining what has given rise to those views and > whether they are valid or > not, instead of grasping at externals ...... (also Anders) The point that I am trying to make (having found the words for it know, I think), is that Buddhism is NOT about having correct understanding of the scriptures, which I think many strive for. It is about getting to the understanding that produced the scriptures. The scriptures should not be verification for your own understanding. Rather, your understanding should be verification of the scriptures. 14715 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 11:20pm Subject: Re: What was wrong with Ananda? Hi Christine, I visited Chief Reverend (Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda) this evening and asked him about Ananda. Chief explained that the Buddha had the unique talent of being able to see the defilements remaining in a person's mind. This did not give the Buddha the power to enlighten people, but rather allowed the Buddha to suggest appropriate actions. The following of the Buddha's advice (and therefore the achievement of enlightenment) was up to the individual. For example, Devatattha routinely ignored the Buddha's advice, and this stopped him from getting enlightenment. In the case on Ananda, the defilement remaining in him was his strong attachment to the Buddha. Great quality for an attendant, but certainly a quality that would impede enlightenment. Consider that Ananda achieved enlightenment shortly after the Buddha died. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > My understanding is that Ananda had reached the first stage of > enlightenment (Sotapanna) before the Buddha passed away. Isn't that > what a 'learner' (sekha) is? Could it be possible that his many > administrative duties and his personal care of the Buddha did not > allow him the time that others had to practice? Could it have been > kamma and accumulations? > > metta, > > Christine > > "Ananda's Grief > > 32. Then the Venerable Ananda went into the vihara and leaned against > the doorpost and wept: "I am still but a learner,[ and still have to > strive for my own perfection. But, alas, my Master, who was so > compassionate towards me, is about to pass away!" > > 33. And the Blessed One spoke to the bhikkhus, saying: "Where, > bhikkhus, is Ananda?" > > "The Venerable Ananda, Lord, has gone into the vihara and there > stands leaning against the door post and weeping: 'I am still but a > learner, and still have to strive for my own perfection. But, alas, > my Master, who was so compassionate towards me, is about to pass > away!'" > > 34. Then the Blessed One asked a certain bhikkhu to bring the > Venerable Ananda to him, saying: "Go, bhikkhu, and say to > Ananda, 'Friend Ananda, the Master calls you.'" > > "So be it, Lord." And that bhikkhu went and spoke to the Venerable > Ananda as the Blessed One had asked him to. And the Venerable Ananda > went to the Blessed One, bowed down to him, and sat down on one side. > > 35. Then the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ananda, > saying: "Enough, Ananda! Do not grieve, do not lament! For have I not > taught from the very beginning that with all that is dear and beloved > there must be change, separation, and severance? Of that which is > born, come into being, compounded, and subject to decay, how can one > say: 'May it not come to dissolution!'? There can be no such state of > things. Now for a long time, Ananda, you have served the Tathagata > with loving-kindness in deed, word, and thought, graciously, > pleasantly, with a whole heart and beyond measure. Great good have > you gathered, Ananda! Now you should put forth energy, and soon you > too will be free from the taints."" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > My class on Metta went well. I was giving the background to the > > Metta Sutta and decided to end on a lighter note. I concluded, "So > > at the end, as is often the case of the Suttas, everybody got > > enlightened and lived hapily ever after (this time it was 500 > > monks)." > > > > I then wondered aloud, "The Buddha was such a powerful teacher that > > people were always getting enlightened around him. Sometimes only a > > few words from the Buddha were enough to do the job. It makes me > > wonder about the case of Ananda. He listened to and remembered > every > > word the Buddha said for decades, yet did not gain enlightenment > > until after the Buddha parinibbana." > > > > Nobody in the class had any theories. Anybody here have any ideas? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 14716 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/4/02 3:15:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > > Howard > > I hope you don't mind me butting in here on this post of yours to > Rob K :-)) > > I would like to add some comments on one or two of your points. > > 1. "The worldling phenomenalist and the worldling "realist" have > the same experiences, but interpret them differently, with the > phenomenalist ... being less willing to posit the existence of > unknowable things." > > I'm don't know if you're implying this, but the teachings do not > urge us to 'posit the existence of unknowable things'. It is simply > that the conditions by which rupas are said to arise, and the fact > that they are said to arise in groups, clearly indicates that the > abhidhamma perspective is that rupas do arise at times other > than when they are the object of consciousness. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The phenomenalist and pragmatist ask how this is to be known. A radical phenomenalist, who combines his/her phenomenalism with pragmatism (often the case), and especially one influenced by the Dhamma or by modern science, sometimes views existence in the following manner: What exists is what is experienced or is able to be experienced subject to the satisfaction of various conditions. But "existence" of objects is rooted in experience, actual or conditionally possible. I've already given examples of "subjunctive conditionality" (such as the phone booth around the corner, the dark side of the moon, and the party next door). The fact that rupas arise in (sequential) groups doesn't attest to their externality but only to relations among them and to lawfulness of experience. Hardness, when it actually arises, arises as the object of a single citta, conditioned by previous experiences, co-conditioned by simutaneous cetasikas, and conditioning future experiences. This hardness is not a characteristic of some external table or floor or wall or tree or car surface etc, etc, because these are all mere pa~n~natti. One moment of observed hardness together with subsequent other experienced rupas lead to future moments of observed hardness, and, so, we say that the hardness continued to exist during the temporal gap. I agree - it did continue to exist, not as an actuality, however, but rather as a lawful, conditioned potentiality. (For simplity, I'm leaving out of this discussion the observations of other sentient beings who share the same realm of experience.) --------------------------------------------------------- > > At the same time, however, as you have pointed out previously, in > terms of the development of the path, the teachings are clear that > it is only what arises and forms part of the present moment of > experience that has any direct relevance. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We agree in this, as would all phenomenalists and pragmatists, even the less radical ones. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > These 2 propositions, the importance of the presently arising > dhamma, and that dhamma only, as far as the development of > the path is concerned, and the (alleged) fact of the arising of > dhammas outside the present moment of experience, are not > mutually exclusive nor even inconsistent with each other, as far > as I can see. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are correct. (That is, I agree! ;-) -------------------------------------------------------- > > 2. " What is the rupa of sound in Abhidhamma? Is it an unknown > external something, existing independently of citta, or is it the > "internal" sound that is heard? (Or are they somehow the > same?)" > > I believe that the abhidhamma explains sound as originating > from the contact of the hardness of 2 or more sets of rupas. In > abhidhamma terms, sound is not regarded as being 'internal' or > 'external' depending on whether or not it is experienced by citta. > > 3. "...how do you understand the mutual conditionality between > vi~n~nana and namarupa in some formulations of > patticasamupada? I take namarupa as consisting of the body of > mental and physical phenomena that can serve as objects for > consciousness, i.e., to be "the all". Do you, instead, take > 'namarupa' to refer to the mind-enlivened body, the physical body > of a living being, and interpret paticcasamupada only in the 3- > lifetime sense?" > > I may not have understood your point here, but the links of > paticca-samuppada apply only to those namas and rupas that > constitute what is conventionally known as a being, and not to > the non-animate rupas. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I accept no non-animate rupas existing independently of the experience of sentient beings, actual or possible (in the sense that I have previousle outlined). They do exist, but in this dependent manner as I see it. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Finally, a question that has been puzzling me about this > discussion. You have pointed out on a number of occasions that > things not presently experienced are `unknowable'. On what > basis then do you assert that these unknowable things do not > exist? It seems to me that if something is unknowable, its non- > existence can no more be asserted than its existence. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are correct. Some pure phenomenalists would agree, and would put "unknowable objects" into an existential limbo. It is is a "don't know" or noncommital position, and is admittedly quite reasonable. Phenomenalism combined with a pragmatism often says that what is in principle unknowable is as good as nonexistent, and it opts for complete nonexistence of unknowable objects. The extreme of this is idealism and even solipsism. But phenomenalism + pragmatism + a scientific, causality-oriented inclination (or the Dhamma, which countenences multiple namarupic streams as well as conditionality), accepts existence *also* in the form of experience of a dhamma by other sentient beings and as the lawful potentiality for the conditioned arising of a dhamma. It is this latter position that is mine, and which William James comes quite close to as well. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Jon > ============================= With metta, Howard > --- Howard wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > ============================= > > It seems to me that you are saying that there is some > existent thing, > > out in "the physical world" (which is something not directly > known but > > inferred to include things which sense bases, also in that > "world", contact) > > - something separate from and independent of discernment by > a sentient being, > > and which we call a 'sound'. There is also that "content of > consciousness", > > that arammana, which we also call a 'sound', *resulting* from > contact of the > > ear base with that "thing in the world" we call a sound. There > seems to be an > > "external sound", contact with which produces the "internal > sound" that is > > heard, which is the arammana to our auditory citta. This is the > standard > > dualist view, I think, of how things are. The phenomenalist > view, however, is > > that it is only what I call the "internal sounds" that are ever > directly > > known or knowable, and the radical phenomenalist view adds > that what is in > > principle unknowable, is pragmatically nonexistent. The > worldling > > phenomenalist and the worldling "realist" have the same > experiences, but > > interpret them differently, with the phenomenalist more readily > applying > > Occam's razor, being less willing to posit the existence of > unknowable > > things. > > What is the rupa of sound in Abhidhamma? Is it an > unknown external > > something, existing independently of citta, or is it the "internal" > sound > > that is heard? (Or are they somehow the same?) > > BTW, you write that the sound conditions the citta, but not > > vice-versa, because sound can exist without being > experienced. In that > > regard, how do you understand the mutual conditionality > between vi~n~nana and > > namarupa in some formulations of patticasamupada? I take > namarupa as > > consisting of the body of mental and physical phenomena that > can serve as > > objects for consciousness, i.e., to be "the all". Do you, instead, > take > > 'namarupa' to refer to the mind-enlivened body, the physical > body of a living > > being, and interpret paticcasamupada only in the 3-lifetime > sense? (I do > > recognize that as a correct interpretation, just not the only > correct one.) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14717 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting the Anapanasati Sutta into practice Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/4/02 3:36:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > I happen to think that the Anapanasati Sutta was taught for the benefit of > those already competent in anapanasati as an aspect of samatha, and not > was not being suggested as a general practice in itself for the > development of insight =========================== But, Jon, the sutta quite explicitly states that anapanasati is a way to implement satipatthana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14718 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 4, 2002 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics and Thinking - For Howard Hi, Rob - In a message dated 8/4/02 4:10:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > > Hi Howard, > > The word "memory" has many connotations. > > Let's go back to first principles: > - The first sense door thought process had an external object > (rupa). That external object lasted the duration of one thought > process (17 cittas), so the external object (rupa) no longer exists > for the second and subsequent thought processes (mind door processes) > - If the external object was a "very great object", the registration > cittas "mark" the object. An important note here is that the > registration cittas are vipaka... they link back to the "stimulus" > and are not concerned with our "response" (javana). > - Once an object is "marked", it can be used by the following mind > door thought process. The subsequent mind door process uses as an > object whatever the investigating citta of the sense door process > passed to the determining citta of the sense door process. > > My understanding therefore is that the object of the mind door > process will be a duplication what the investigating citta of the > sense door object passed to the determining object of the sense door > process. I would not call this "memory" as what is passed is a > specific object. Our normal usaing of "memory" involves an imperfect > recollection of concepts, feelings, emotions, etc. > > I haven't researched "memory" yet... I'm looking forward to it. > > You might want to check out pages 4, 38 and 39 of my Class Notes > (Now on-line in the "files" section. There are some tables and > diagrams that might be useful. > > I am 95% confident in what I have posted above. I would welcome any > corrections from other DSG members. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > ================================ But what of the following? (It was provided, I believe, by you) ************************************ Dying to Live The Role of Kamma in Dying and Rebirth Aggacitta Bhikkhu Here is a brief explanation of the diagram: after the eye-door process has ceased, a memory of the visual object comes into range at the mind-door and sets off many sequences of mind-door processes whereby the object is recognized, conceptualized, thought about, and perhaps acted upon verbally or physically. The number of these consequent processes varies according to circumstances and need not conform to the arbitrary pattern in the diagram. For a detailed explanation of these processes, see A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi (Kandy: BPS, 1993), pp. 163-165. ****************************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14719 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristics and thinking op 03-08-2002 20:45 schreef Howard op Howard: > Hi again, Nina - > > I found the following which seems to support my "fresh memory" notion: > > The following is taken from: > ************************************ > Dying to Live > The Role of Kamma in Dying and Rebirth Aggacitta Bhikkhu > ***********************************> > > Here is a brief explanation of the diagram: after the eye-door process has > ceased, a memory of the visual object comes into range at the mind-door and > sets off many sequences of mind-door processes whereby the object is > recognized, conceptualized, thought about, and perhaps acted upon verbally or > physically. The number of these consequent processes varies according to > circumstances and need not conform to the arbitrary pattern in the diagram. > For a detailed explanation of these processes, see A Comprehensive Manual of > Abhidhamma, edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi (Kandy: BPS, 1993), pp. 163-165. Hi Howard, What is said above is correct, except that the cittas of *first mind-door process after the eye-door process* experience just visible object. Although it has just fallen away, this can happen, because of the speed of cittas. If visible object or colour, or sound, odour, etc. could not be experienced through the mind-door, how could insight knowledge understand nama and rupa through the mind-door? The first stage of insight which understands the difference between the characteristic of nama and the characteristic of rupa does so while it arises in a mind-door process. It understands in a mind-door process rupa as it is, such as just colour or visible object, not an image of it, not a memory of it, not a concept of it. Just plain rupa, exactly as it appeared in the preceding relevant sense-door process. When Ven. Dhammadharo asked A. Sujin: is it the same or is it different, she answered: exactly the same. Best wishes from Nina. 14720 From: <> Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 3:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Dear Nina, thanks for this great answer. Although I didn't understand every detail, perhaps it will become more clear when we get to the jhana chapter in ADL. However, one thing I am doubtful of is the _purpose_ of jhana (tranquility). There are some few, slight indications here and there that with jhana we begin to understand the three characteristics. I wonder if we can view jhana as a more common, ordinary phenomenon, not so exclusive. The way the 7 stages of the path of purification is laid out, jhana comes right after sila and before purification of view. However, jhana doesn't really seem to be interested in insight. To me, the logic of it says its purpose is solely for tranquility and it advances from stage to stage by recognizing possibilities of greater tranquility through fewer qualities. But tranquility only seems like a valuable state because of anicca,dukkha, anatta. Sorry, this is pretty incoherent. I'm just thinking with my fingers. Hope to organize it better later. thanks again, Larry 14721 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 4:22am Subject: Re: What was wrong with Ananda? Hi Rob M, Thanks for this info. I'm glad you have Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda and other Bhikkhus close by to contact - though a little envious:):). metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I visited Chief Reverend (Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda) this evening and > asked him about Ananda. > > Chief explained that the Buddha had the unique talent of being able > to see the defilements remaining in a person's mind. This did not > give the Buddha the power to enlighten people, but rather allowed > the Buddha to suggest appropriate actions. The following of the > Buddha's advice (and therefore the achievement of enlightenment) was > up to the individual. For example, Devatattha routinely ignored the > Buddha's advice, and this stopped him from getting enlightenment. In > the case on Ananda, the defilement remaining in him was his strong > attachment to the Buddha. Great quality for an attendant, but > certainly a quality that would impede enlightenment. Consider that > Ananda achieved enlightenment shortly after the Buddha died. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > > > > My understanding is that Ananda had reached the first stage of > > enlightenment (Sotapanna) before the Buddha passed away. Isn't > that > > what a 'learner' (sekha) is? Could it be possible that his many > > administrative duties and his personal care of the Buddha did not > > allow him the time that others had to practice? Could it have > been > > kamma and accumulations? > > > > metta, > > > > Christine > > > > "Ananda's Grief > > > > 32. Then the Venerable Ananda went into the vihara and leaned > against > > the doorpost and wept: "I am still but a learner,[ and still have > to > > strive for my own perfection. But, alas, my Master, who was so > > compassionate towards me, is about to pass away!" > > > > 33. And the Blessed One spoke to the bhikkhus, saying: "Where, > > bhikkhus, is Ananda?" > > > > "The Venerable Ananda, Lord, has gone into the vihara and there > > stands leaning against the door post and weeping: 'I am still but > a > > learner, and still have to strive for my own perfection. But, > alas, > > my Master, who was so compassionate towards me, is about to pass > > away!'" > > > > 34. Then the Blessed One asked a certain bhikkhu to bring the > > Venerable Ananda to him, saying: "Go, bhikkhu, and say to > > Ananda, 'Friend Ananda, the Master calls you.'" > > > > "So be it, Lord." And that bhikkhu went and spoke to the Venerable > > Ananda as the Blessed One had asked him to. And the Venerable > Ananda > > went to the Blessed One, bowed down to him, and sat down on one > side. > > > > 35. Then the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Ananda, > > saying: "Enough, Ananda! Do not grieve, do not lament! For have I > not > > taught from the very beginning that with all that is dear and > beloved > > there must be change, separation, and severance? Of that which is > > born, come into being, compounded, and subject to decay, how can > one > > say: 'May it not come to dissolution!'? There can be no such state > of > > things. Now for a long time, Ananda, you have served the Tathagata > > with loving-kindness in deed, word, and thought, graciously, > > pleasantly, with a whole heart and beyond measure. Great good have > > you gathered, Ananda! Now you should put forth energy, and soon > you > > too will be free from the taints."" > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > > > > > > --- "robmoult" wrote: 14722 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 4:23am Subject: Re: Vanceti -cheating dhammas Dear RobertK,(and Gayan), Thank you so much for this information. Following your link, I then found the posts by Gayan in the Useful Posts list under Cheating Dhammas, and together with other posts they point to, it is continuing to be quite a revelation. I had been noting my own motives and behaviour, and assessing the motives and behaviour of others. Up until now I had wondered if Buddhism was a little naive in its understanding of the "real" motivations and intentions of people, as opposed to their "stated" motivations and intentions. metta, Christine --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > I note that False Speech > > includes writing or hand signals, and have always wondered if it > > would include such things as not telling the full truth, or > remaining > > silent when one knows a false impression has been created. As > well, > > under Harsh Speech - I wonder about people who say that they use > > harsh, derisive or insulting speech for 'the good of others', > > to 'wake them up' ... a good intention or fooling themselves? > ------------------------------- > Dear Christine, > This relates to a translation that Gayan did a couple of years ago > about the Vanceti (based on the Netti-pakarana). These vanceti > masquerade as kusala but are akusala, they are classified into 34 > types. Number 17 is especially relevant > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3544 > 17: apisu.navaaditaapatiruupataaya anatthakaamataa va~ncetiiti > yujjati. > > Gayan: "It is not a 'papakamma' to warn about a person ( or rather > the evil > qualities of such person ) to another for the well being of > the 'other'. > It is a good quality to warn ( and protect ) somebody from a possible > harm.( a > sappurisa quality ) > Intention is the key here. > Being 'silent' in such an occation 'thinking' " I will not say > pisunavaca..." > is a stage which needs to be further examined. > In some minds there is this very minute 'anusaya dhatu' left that > they > sometimes > have the secret delight in seeing harm happening to others. > Anatthakamatha..... > ( anattha - harm ). > This cheats them . > The point here is to check whether what's operating is genuine > apisunavacata > or a cheating akusala. > ( and to be aware of the kusala as kusala , and the akusala as > akusala )"" > Robert 14723 From: yuzhonghao Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting the Anapanasati Sutta into practice Hi Jon, Again, the Buddha pointed out the benefit of developing the mindfulness of in-&-out breathing and gave the instruction on it in Anapanasati Sutta. It is up to one to put the instruction into practice. If you don't see that you can put the instruction into practice, then perhaps you might want to find out what hinders you from developing the mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. I look forward to discussing with you on any issue you have regarding anapanasati after you start developing the mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. Regards, Victor --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > > Hi, Jon, > > > > If you are making effort to put the instruction on being mindful of > > breathing as set out in the Anapanasati Sutta into practice, and if > there is any > > part of the instruction that you don't understand, then it might be a > > good idea to bring up your questions on what you don't understand to > > the dsg members' attention. In this way, you might get some > > responses that are helpful to your development of mindfulness of > > breathing, if you are making effort to develop it in the first place. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > I happen to think that the Anapanasati Sutta was taught for the benefit of > those already competent in anapanasati as an aspect of samatha, and not > was not being suggested as a general practice in itself for the > development of insight. > > That's why I was interested to hear something about your own views as to > what the Buddha is saying in the sutta, and whether you see anything in > the sutta that has particular application to the likes of you and me ;-)) > > Jon 14724 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics and Thinking - For Howard Hi Howard, Aggacitta Bhikkhu specifically refers to the "memory of the visual object" and its function in the thought process. In common usage, when I say that I remember a person or a place, I am talking not at the "visual object" level, but rather at the concept, perception and feeling level. My take on this is that perhaps Aggacitta Bhikkhu was a little loose in his usage of the term "memory". Here are the relevant quotes from BB's text (referenced by Aggacitta Bhikkhu): P163: "Just as when a gong is struck once by a baton, the gong sends forth a continuous stream of reverberations, so when one of the five sense doors has been impinged upon by a sense object, after the five sense door process has ceased the past sense object comes into the range at the mind door and sets off many sequences of mind-door processes." It would appear that Aggacitta Bhikkhu paraphrased BB and added the word "memory". Thanks, Rob M :-) --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 8/4/02 4:10:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <> > writes: > > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > The word "memory" has many connotations. > > > > Let's go back to first principles: > > - The first sense door thought process had an external object > > (rupa). That external object lasted the duration of one thought > > process (17 cittas), so the external object (rupa) no longer exists > > for the second and subsequent thought processes (mind door processes) > > - If the external object was a "very great object", the registration > > cittas "mark" the object. An important note here is that the > > registration cittas are vipaka... they link back to the "stimulus" > > and are not concerned with our "response" (javana). > > - Once an object is "marked", it can be used by the following mind > > door thought process. The subsequent mind door process uses as an > > object whatever the investigating citta of the sense door process > > passed to the determining citta of the sense door process. > > > > My understanding therefore is that the object of the mind door > > process will be a duplication what the investigating citta of the > > sense door object passed to the determining object of the sense door > > process. I would not call this "memory" as what is passed is a > > specific object. Our normal usaing of "memory" involves an imperfect > > recollection of concepts, feelings, emotions, etc. > > > > I haven't researched "memory" yet... I'm looking forward to it. > > > > You might want to check out pages 4, 38 and 39 of my Class Notes > > (Now on-line in the "files" section. There are some tables and > > diagrams that might be useful. > > > > I am 95% confident in what I have posted above. I would welcome any > > corrections from other DSG members. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > ================================ > But what of the following? (It was provided, I believe, by you) > > ************************************ > Dying to Live > The Role of Kamma in Dying and Rebirth Aggacitta Bhikkhu > > > Here is a brief explanation of the diagram: after the eye-door process has > ceased, a memory of the visual object comes into range at the mind- door and > sets off many sequences of mind-door processes whereby the object is > recognized, conceptualized, thought about, and perhaps acted upon verbally or > > physically. The number of these consequent processes varies according to > circumstances and need not conform to the arbitrary pattern in the diagram. > For a detailed explanation of these processes, see A Comprehensive Manual of > Abhidhamma, edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi (Kandy: BPS, 1993), pp. 163- 165. > ****************************************** > > With metta, > Howard 14725 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 7:25am Subject: Votthapana citta (was Re: Class Notes on-line! Hi Herman In a sense door process, cittas 1 - 3 (bhavanga cittas) are vipaka. They are always the same, the result of the cuti (death) citta from the previous existence (Christine, again note the importance of the last thought). Cittas 4 - 7 (adverting, sense-consciousness, receiving and investigating) are also vipaka. They are the result of some other kamma. If a citta is vipaka, there is an element of "determinism". I think that it is extremely important to note that the Votthapana is not vipaka, but is kiriya. Please see page 3 and page 4 of my class notes (now available on-line in the "files" section). If the Votthapana citta were vipaka (like its predecessors), thinking would be a pure "stimulus - response" process. Thinking (and by extension, life) would be deterministic. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "egberdina" wrote: > Hi Robert and Rob and all, > > I am thinking of changing my name to Rob. Peer pressure :-) > > Votthapana citta is a citta that functions independantly of kamma. It > is the citta that precedes javana citta, where kamma is produced. The > outcome of Votthapana citta ( a non-karmic event) determines karma. > This is in line, at least, with Nyanatiloka's Manual of Buddhist > Terms and Doctrines. > > My take on this is: What you see is what you get. > > > Any other thoughts on votthapana citta? > > > All the best > > Herman > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > On the question of freewill please bring it up anytime; I believe > it > > is crucial part of the understanding of Anatta and bears directly > on > > how we interpret and thus practice the Dhamma. > > Robert > > > > "robmoult" wrote: 14726 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 7:32am Subject: Re: What was wrong with Ananda? Hi Christine, Oops, envy is issa (akusala) :-) Last night, the Chief commented that Buddhism was growing very fast in Australia. Particularly in Perth and Melbourne. One of my favourite dhamma speakers is Ajahn Brahmavamso, an Englishman who studied under Ajahn Chah. He is the abbot of the Vihara in Perth. However, I appreciate that if you live on the east coast, that Perth is a continent away. While waiting for a dynamic Bhikkhu to set up shop in your back yard, you can always turn to the DSG. I would be happy to ask the Chief Reverend any questions on your behalf. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > Thanks for this info. I'm glad you have Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda and > other Bhikkhus close by to contact - though a little envious:):). > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > I visited Chief Reverend (Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda) this evening and > > asked him about Ananda. > > > > Chief explained that the Buddha had the unique talent of being able > > to see the defilements remaining in a person's mind. This did not > > give the Buddha the power to enlighten people, but rather allowed > > the Buddha to suggest appropriate actions. The following of the > > Buddha's advice (and therefore the achievement of enlightenment) > was > > up to the individual. For example, Devatattha routinely ignored the > > Buddha's advice, and this stopped him from getting enlightenment. > In > > the case on Ananda, the defilement remaining in him was his strong > > attachment to the Buddha. Great quality for an attendant, but > > certainly a quality that would impede enlightenment. Consider that > > Ananda achieved enlightenment shortly after the Buddha died. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > > > --- "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: 14727 From: corvus121 Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 8:03am Subject: Re: forwarding to list --- "Anders Honore" wrote: > Sarah and I have been discussing via email recently, and she proposed that I > forwarded parts of it to the list for discussion, which I also felt > appropriate: > > ======== > > > > (also Anders) > The point that I am trying to make (having found the words for it know, I > think), is that Buddhism is NOT about having correct understanding of the > scriptures, which I think many strive for. It is about getting to the > understanding that produced the scriptures. The scriptures should not be > verification for your own understanding. Rather, your understanding should > be verification of the scriptures. Dear Anders and Sarah What an interesting point to explore. I think it is very relevant to my previous posting on "animals" - am I trying to make the scriptures verify my understanding of animals? One question I have is this: if I was right in citing a reference to the Buddha saying that there were many truths (like leaves in the forest) he was not expounding, does it follow that the scriptures are incomplete? If so, how does this impact, if at all, on how we should see the scriptures? Andrew 14728 From: Howard Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha, Samadhi and Right Concentration Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/4/02 5:38:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > [Jon:] > To my understanding, kusala of any kind is developed, i.e. becomes > stronger, by nurturing, or building on, the existing accumulations of > (weaker) kusala, that is to say, by knowing the kusala when it arises and > by understanding the importance of its cultivation. > > The arising/manifesting of this existing (weaker) kusala, which for most > of the time remains latent within our accumulations, is dependent on > conditions that include an appropriate opportunity and an appreciation of > the value of that specific form of kusala and, in the case of insight in > particular, correct intellectual understanding of the different dhammas > that make up the world as we know it, and of the nature and function of > the those various dhammas, so that there is a proper idea of the potential > object of insight. > > That being the case, my own perspective on the factors you mention is that > many people are far too preoccupied with them, to the detriment of the > study of the presently appearing reality. And yes, I do see an insidious > idea of ability to control (= idea of self) lurking behind the idea that > 'effort put forth to develop kusala will result in more kusala being > developed'. > > To put my 'concerns' in a nutshell, I do not understand the Buddha to be > saying that kusala can be developed by *directed attention* or *conscious > effort* and, in particular, I don't read him as saying that insight is > developed by directed attention to a *selected object or range of > objects*. > > On your point about Right Concentration being one of the factors of the > Noble Eightfold Path, this of course I recognise (and for some it needs to > be emphasised that it is concentration and not calm that is the factor). > To my understanding, this concentration, together with the path factor of > Right Effort and other path factors, is fostered and nurtured by the > actual moments of awareness and right understanding that occur, which is > why in the teachings (and particularly in the Satipatthana Sutta) > awareness is emphasised above all other path factors (always the leader). > > =============================== I find little to disagree with in the foregoing. By in large I agree with what you wrote. Where we differ I think is in the following: "To put my 'concerns' in a nutshell, I do not understand the Buddha to be saying that kusala can be developed by *directed attention* or *conscious effort* and, in particular, I don't read him as saying that insight is developed by directed attention to a *selected object or range of objects*." It is not so much the part about the restriction to a "selected object or range of objects" that we differ on, because I think that seeing the tilakkhana is possible in all conditioned dhammas, but moreso in the first part of what you say here. I DO see the Buddha as teaching that "kusala can be developed [or at least encouraged/fostered] by directed attention or conscious effort". The effort, however, cannot consist in mere *willing* of kusala traits, including wisdom, but rather should consist in conscious efforts at guarding the senses cultivating samatha and vipassana through mindfulness practice, both during "ordinary times" as well as during the restricted-input context of formal meditation practice. In all of this, I see effort at maintaining mindfulness and clear comprehension as primary. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14729 From: Howard Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Characteristics and Thinking - For Howard Hi, Rob - So, the bottom line on this, it seems to me, is that you and Nina actually think the Bhikkhu was in error on this, or at least was playing a bit fast and loose with his terminology. This, of course, is a possibility - being a Bhikkhu doesn't make one infallible. ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/4/02 7:01:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> writes: > Hi Howard, > > Aggacitta Bhikkhu specifically refers to the "memory of the visual > object" and its function in the thought process. > > In common usage, when I say that I remember a person or a place, I > am talking not at the "visual object" level, but rather at the > concept, perception and feeling level. > > My take on this is that perhaps Aggacitta Bhikkhu was a little loose > in his usage of the term "memory". > > Here are the relevant quotes from BB's text (referenced by Aggacitta > Bhikkhu): > > P163: "Just as when a gong is struck once by a baton, the gong sends > forth a continuous stream of reverberations, so when one of the five > sense doors has been impinged upon by a sense object, after the five > sense door process has ceased the past sense object comes into the > range at the mind door and sets off many sequences of mind-door > processes." > > It would appear that Aggacitta Bhikkhu paraphrased BB and added the > word "memory". > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14730 From: Ruth Klein Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 9:50am Subject: Access to Bhikkhus (was What was wrong with Ananda) Rob, I listened with great appreciation to a bunch of talks given by Ajahn Brahm (and Ajahn Nayanadhammo, who was acting abbot while Ajahn Brahm was on retreat for 6 months). They're on the Dhammaloka website- http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/audio.html. I have heard, however, that his views are a little controversial. I find them both very clear, to the point, and can't find anything to contest.... Have you any clues where/why this view might have started? Namaste, Ruth - only 9 more days until I will be at Wat Metta in California! > -----Original Message----- > From: robmoult [mailto:<>] > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 7:33 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: What was wrong with Ananda? > > > Hi Christine, > > Oops, envy is issa (akusala) :-) > > Last night, the Chief commented that Buddhism was growing very fast > in Australia. Particularly in Perth and Melbourne. One of my > favourite dhamma speakers is Ajahn Brahmavamso, an Englishman who > studied under Ajahn Chah. He is the abbot of the Vihara in Perth. > However, I appreciate that if you live on the east coast, that Perth > is a continent away. > > While waiting for a dynamic Bhikkhu to set up shop in your back > yard, you can always turn to the DSG. I would be happy to ask the > Chief Reverend any questions on your behalf. > > 14731 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting the Anapanasati Sutta into practice Howard Thanks for coming in on this thread :-)) --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 8/4/02 3:36:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Jon writes: > > > > I happen to think that the Anapanasati Sutta was taught for the > benefit of > > those already competent in anapanasati as an aspect of samatha, and > not > > was not being suggested as a general practice in itself for the > > development of insight > =========================== > But, Jon, the sutta quite explicitly states that anapanasati is a > way > to implement satipatthana. > > With metta, > Howard It depends what you mean by this. I think the question we need to consider is something like this: Does the sutta say, 'If you develop anapanasati, you develop satipatthana', or does it say 'If you want to develop satipatthana, then a great way to do this is to develop anapanasati" (I don't know if I make the distinction clear). I think you see the sutta as saying the second of these, rather than the first. What particular passages in the sutta would you say are significant in this regard? It might be useful to take a closer look. Jon 14732 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 10:22am Subject: Re: Access to Bhikkhus (was What was wrong with Ananda) Hi Ruth, Sorry, don't know where/why this view might have started. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "Ruth Klein" wrote: > I have heard, however, that his > views are a little controversial. I find them both very clear, to the > point, and can't find anything to contest.... Have you any clues where/why > this view might have started? 14734 From: a_doc99 Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 11:03am Subject: A New Member Hello Everyone: I just join this group. I want to introduce myself by sharing my website with all. www.wakeupsmart.com Have a peaceful day, A Have you cleaned up your mind yet today? -Meditation www.wakeupsmart.com 14735 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 11:13am Subject: Therevada Nun in Thailand Hi all, An interesting interview in my morning paper with Dr. Chatsumarn Kabilsingh on her controversial ordination as a Therevada nun and her quest to establish nunhood in Thailand. [Note to use this link, you must use the entire address, not just the first line] http://thestar.com.my/services/printerfriendly.asp? file=/2002/8/5/features/sznun.asp&sec=features [Alternatively, you could try this] http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp? file=/2002/8/5/features/sznun&sec=features [Or you can just go to the home page and drill down - I suspect that this may only work for today as they update the home page daily] http://thestar.com.my/ If all else fails and you are really keen to read the article, I have downloaded it as a web page and can email it to you. Please send me an email at <> if this is required (please don't use DSG posting for this). Thanks, Rob M :-) 14736 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 11:22am Subject: Votthapana citta (was Re: Class Notes on-line! --- Dear RobM and (Herman), As I think you know votthapana citta (according to the texts) arises only in a fivedoor process - in a mind door process the same type of citta has a slightly different function and is called the mind-door adverting consciousness(manodvaravajjanacitta). In your class notes you equate votthapana citta with free-will. As I said before I haven't seen this idea at all in the Abhidhamma. I think it is clear in the Abhidhamma that all cittas (even votthapana) are conditioned - they don't arise merely by wishing or chance or because of a self deciding that they should be this way or that. Robert "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Herman > > In a sense door process, cittas 1 - 3 (bhavanga cittas) are vipaka. > They are always the same, the result of the cuti (death) citta from > the previous existence (Christine, again note the importance of the > last thought). Cittas 4 - 7 (adverting, sense-consciousness, > receiving and investigating) are also vipaka. They are the result of > some other kamma. > > If a citta is vipaka, there is an element of "determinism". > > I think that it is extremely important to note that the Votthapana > is not vipaka, but is kiriya. Please see page 3 and page 4 of my > class notes (now available on-line in the "files" section). > > If the Votthapana citta were vipaka (like its predecessors), > thinking would be a pure "stimulus - response" process. Thinking > (and by extension, life) would be deterministic. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- "egberdina" wrote: > > Hi Robert and Rob and all, > > > > I am thinking of changing my name to Rob. Peer pressure :-) > > > > Votthapana citta is a citta that functions independantly of kamma. > It > > is the citta that precedes javana citta, where kamma is produced. > The > > outcome of Votthapana citta ( a non-karmic event) determines > karma. > > This is in line, at least, with Nyanatiloka's Manual of Buddhist > > Terms and Doctrines. > > > > My take on this is: What you see is what you get. > > > > > > Any other thoughts on votthapana citta? > > > > > > All the best > > > > Herman > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 14737 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 11:54am Subject: Votthapana citta (was Re: Class Notes on-line! Hi Robert, --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear RobM and (Herman), > > As I think you know votthapana citta (according to the texts) arises > only in a fivedoor process - in a mind door process the same type of > citta has a slightly different function and is called the mind- door > adverting consciousness(manodvaravajjanacitta). > In your class notes you equate votthapana citta with free-will. As > I said before I haven't seen this idea at all in the Abhidhamma. I > think it is clear in the Abhidhamma that all cittas (even > votthapana) are conditioned - they don't arise merely by wishing or > chance or because of a self deciding that they should be this way or > that. > Robert > Ever since first writing the notes, I have been trying to rationalize "anatta" with "free will". Digging more deeply into this is on my "To Do List" - part of my research for my lecture on anatta. In my mind, "free will" is a concept whereas a "citta" is a paramattha. This superficial acceptance that it might be possible to reconcile the two after further investigation has allowed me to put off a serious study of the subject. At the end, anatta is core to Buddhism, whereas "free will" is something that I think is important. Certainly the votthapana citta is conditioned. But conditioned on what? Because it is kiriya, the votthapana citta is not subject to kamma-niyama. It is, however, subject to citta-niyama which means that the falling away of the investigating citta is the condition for the arising of the votthapana citta. I am looking for a way of accepting "free will" at a conceptual level, without violating anatta at a more fundamental level. Could somebody list the differences between votthapana and manodvaravajjanacitta? Thanks, Rob M :-) 14738 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 1:13pm Subject: FreewillVotthapana citta (was Re: Class Notes on-line! Dear RobM, While you are thinking about freewill and anatta here are some thoughts that will be a condition for more reflection. The idea of freewill , I believe, is the illusion that keeps the wheel of dependent origination(paticcasamuppada) forever spinning. It occurs and is repeatedly 'confirmed' because avijja , ignorance, runs among concepts and takes what are merely elements perfoming different tasks as wholes. When we think of wholes we do not see the nature of dhammas. It is by breaking down the wholes (the direct study of realities in the present moment)that insight grows. And especially the function of the Abhidhamma is to detail these dhammas to assist this investigation. "When they are seen (the khandhas) after resolving them by means of knowledge into elements, they disintergrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhammas)occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more clear" Pm (visuddhimagga xxi n.4) It takes time to do this, a long time, cira kala bhavana. ) All dhammas, even votthapanna, are conditioned (not neccessarily by kamma - there are 24 paccaya explained in the Abhidhammma)and all have the characteristic of anatta, not self. All are as below: "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise of power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) As I said to Christine a while back: When I first started to see that this is really the way things are it scared me alot, and I wanted to turn away and try to believe that it was otherwise- I wanted to believe 'I' could control something, anything! But, you know, this is what dukkha really is. We can't stop seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, feeling, knowing, thinking; these dhammas are not ours and they arise by conditions. They oppress by continually arising and ceasing. The amazing thing is that the more we look into this, and the more obvious dukkha thus becomes, the happier we become. And paradoxically the more we see that there is no control the more freedom we have. The more we see that right effort is a conditioned phenomena the more vigor there is - because we are not wasting energy trying to have what can't yet be had. There is detachment from the idea of a self who is doing anything - there is the gradual elimination of attasanna (self perception), the paticcasamupadda is being dismantled. First it is known as theory but it can be known directly too: "First it has to be seen by inference acording to the texts. Afterwards it gradually becomes to be known by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger" Pm Vis. xx n.20 Robert "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear RobM and (Herman), > > > > As I think you know votthapana citta (according to the texts) > arises > > only in a fivedoor process - in a mind door process the same type > of > > citta has a slightly different function and is called the mind- > door > > adverting consciousness(manodvaravajjanacitta). > > In your class notes you equate votthapana citta with free-will. > As > > I said before I haven't seen this idea at all in the Abhidhamma. I > > think it is clear in the Abhidhamma that all cittas (even > > votthapana) are conditioned - they don't arise merely by wishing > or > > chance or because of a self deciding that they should be this way > or > > that. > > Robert > > > > Ever since first writing the notes, I have been trying to > rationalize "anatta" with "free will". Digging more deeply into this > is on my "To Do List" - part of my research for my lecture on > anatta. In my mind, "free will" is a concept whereas a "citta" is a > paramattha. This superficial acceptance that it might be possible to > reconcile the two after further investigation has allowed me to put > off a serious study of the subject. At the end, anatta is core to > Buddhism, whereas "free will" is something that I think is > important. > > Certainly the votthapana citta is conditioned. But conditioned on > what? Because it is kiriya, the votthapana citta is not subject to > kamma-niyama. It is, however, subject to citta-niyama which means > that the falling away of the investigating citta is the condition > for the arising of the votthapana citta. > > I am looking for a way of accepting "free will" at a conceptual > level, without violating anatta at a more fundamental level. > > Could somebody list the differences between votthapana and > manodvaravajjanacitta? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14739 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 1:56pm Subject: FreewillVotthapana citta (was Re: Class Notes on-line! Hi Robert, For some time, I have known that I was going to have a tough time with anatta. On a recent trip to Colombo book stores, I picked up anything that had "anatta" in the title. Now I have no fewer than a dozen books/booklets in my library on this subject. I haven't read any of them yet. I intend to do a lecure on anatta near the end of the year, so I will have to start my research soon. I am printing out your message below and will refer to it when I start my research. As yet, I am undecided if I should attempt to teach paticcasamuppada (I have a few unread books on this subject as well) to what is supposed to be an "introductory" class on Abhidhamma. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear RobM, > While you are thinking about freewill and anatta here are some > thoughts that will be a condition for more reflection. > The idea of freewill , I believe, is the illusion that keeps the > wheel of dependent origination(paticcasamuppada) forever spinning. It > occurs and is repeatedly 'confirmed' because avijja , ignorance, > runs among concepts and takes what are merely elements perfoming > different tasks as wholes. > When we think of wholes we do not see the nature of dhammas. It is > by > breaking down the wholes (the direct study of realities in the > present moment)that insight grows. And especially the function of the > Abhidhamma is to detail these dhammas to assist this investigation. > "When they are seen (the khandhas) after resolving them by means of > knowledge into elements, they disintergrate like froth subjected to > compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhammas)occurring due > to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self > becomes more clear" Pm (visuddhimagga xxi n.4) It takes time to do > this, a long time, cira kala bhavana. > > ) > > All dhammas, even votthapanna, are conditioned (not neccessarily by > kamma - there are 24 paccaya explained in the Abhidhammma)and all > have the characteristic of anatta, not self. All are as below: > "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise of > power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of > voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of > opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) > > As I said to Christine a while back: When I first started to see > that this is really the way things are it scared me alot, and I > wanted to turn away and try to believe that it was otherwise- I > wanted to believe 'I' could control something, anything! > But, you know, this is what dukkha really is. We can't stop > seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, feeling, knowing, thinking; > these dhammas are not ours and they arise by conditions. They > oppress by continually arising and ceasing. > > The amazing thing is that the more we look into this, and the > more obvious dukkha thus becomes, the happier we become. And > paradoxically the more we see that there is no control the more > freedom we have. The more we see that right effort is a > conditioned phenomena the more vigor there is - because we are > not wasting energy trying to have what can't yet be had. There is > detachment from the idea of a self who is doing anything - there is > the gradual elimination of attasanna (self perception), the > paticcasamupadda is being dismantled. > > First it is known as theory but it can be known directly too: "First > it has to be seen by inference acording to the texts. Afterwards it > gradually becomes to be known by personal experience when the > knowledge of development gets stronger" Pm Vis. xx n.20 > Robert > > > "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > --- > > > Dear RobM and (Herman), > > > > > > As I think you know votthapana citta (according to the texts) > > arises > > > only in a fivedoor process - in a mind door process the same type > > of > > > citta has a slightly different function and is called the mind- > > door > > > adverting consciousness(manodvaravajjanacitta). > > > In your class notes you equate votthapana citta with free- will. > > As > > > I said before I haven't seen this idea at all in the Abhidhamma. > I > > > think it is clear in the Abhidhamma that all cittas (even > > > votthapana) are conditioned - they don't arise merely by wishing > > or > > > chance or because of a self deciding that they should be this way > > or > > > that. > > > Robert > > > > > > > Ever since first writing the notes, I have been trying to > > rationalize "anatta" with "free will". Digging more deeply into > this > > is on my "To Do List" - part of my research for my lecture on > > anatta. In my mind, "free will" is a concept whereas a "citta" is a > > paramattha. This superficial acceptance that it might be possible > to > > reconcile the two after further investigation has allowed me to put > > off a serious study of the subject. At the end, anatta is core to > > Buddhism, whereas "free will" is something that I think is > > important. > > > > Certainly the votthapana citta is conditioned. But conditioned on > > what? Because it is kiriya, the votthapana citta is not subject to > > kamma-niyama. It is, however, subject to citta-niyama which means > > that the falling away of the investigating citta is the condition > > for the arising of the votthapana citta. > > > > I am looking for a way of accepting "free will" at a conceptual > > level, without violating anatta at a more fundamental level. > > > > Could somebody list the differences between votthapana and > > manodvaravajjanacitta? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 14740 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 2:30pm Subject: FreewillVotthapana citta (was Re: Class Notes on-line! --- Dear RobM, You seem very amenable to hearing about anatta - even though some aspects may be a little unpalateble at the moment- a sign that clinging to view is weak (as it should be in an Abhidhamma teacher). I 'll add some more details later - I want to add that negating freewill doesn't imply determinism - another view. Paticcasamuppada is tough - I spoke with acharn Sujin in Bangkok last time I was there and didn't get past the first spoke (and comprehended little of that). But a key part is that the fivekhandas are the paticcasamuppada and they are all anatta. Robert "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > For some time, I have known that I was going to have a tough time > with anatta. On a recent trip to Colombo book stores, I picked up > anything that had "anatta" in the title. Now I have no fewer than a > dozen books/booklets in my library on this subject. I haven't read > any of them yet. I intend to do a lecure on anatta near the end of > the year, so I will have to start my research soon. I am printing > out your message below and will refer to it when I start my research. > > As yet, I am undecided if I should attempt to teach paticcasamuppada > (I have a few unread books on this subject as well) to what is > supposed to be an "introductory" class on Abhidhamma. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > Dear RobM, > > While you are thinking about freewill and anatta here are some > > thoughts that will be a condition for more reflection. > > The idea of freewill , I believe, is the illusion that keeps the > > wheel of dependent origination(paticcasamuppada) forever spinning. > It > > occurs and is repeatedly 'confirmed' because avijja , ignorance, > > runs among concepts and takes what are merely elements perfoming > > different tasks as wholes. > > When we think of wholes we do not see the nature of dhammas. It > is > > by > > breaking down the wholes (the direct study of realities in the > > present moment)that insight grows. And especially the function of > the > > Abhidhamma is to detail these dhammas to assist this > investigation. > > "When they are seen (the khandhas) after resolving them by means > of > > knowledge into elements, they disintergrate like froth subjected > to > > compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhammas)occurring > due > > to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not- self > > becomes more clear" Pm (visuddhimagga xxi n.4) It takes time to do > > this, a long time, cira kala bhavana. > > > > ) > > > > All dhammas, even votthapanna, are conditioned (not neccessarily > by > > kamma - there are 24 paccaya explained in the Abhidhammma)and all > > have the characteristic of anatta, not self. All are as below: > > "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise > of > > power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of > > voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of > > opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) > > > > As I said to Christine a while back: When I first started to see > > that this is really the way things are it scared me alot, and I > > wanted to turn away and try to believe that it was otherwise- I > > wanted to believe 'I' could control something, anything! > > But, you know, this is what dukkha really is. We can't stop > > seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, feeling, knowing, thinking; > > these dhammas are not ours and they arise by conditions. They > > oppress by continually arising and ceasing. > > > > The amazing thing is that the more we look into this, and the > > more obvious dukkha thus becomes, the happier we become. And > > paradoxically the more we see that there is no control the more > > freedom we have. The more we see that right effort is a > > conditioned phenomena the more vigor there is - because we are > > not wasting energy trying to have what can't yet be had. There is > > detachment from the idea of a self who is doing anything - there > is > > the gradual elimination of attasanna (self perception), the > > paticcasamupadda is being dismantled. > > > > First it is known as theory but it can be known directly > too: "First > > it has to be seen by inference acording to the texts. Afterwards > it > > gradually becomes to be known by personal experience when the > > knowledge of development gets stronger" Pm Vis. xx n.20 > > Robert > > 14741 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 4:37pm Subject: Re: Therevada Nun in Thailand Hi Rob M, A very interesting article. Brave and determined woman. Have you read the article "Restoring the Order of Nuns to the Theravaadin Tradition" by Senarat Wijayasundara. I wonder what you think of the six recommendations? http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha184.htm metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi all, > > An interesting interview in my morning paper with Dr. Chatsumarn > Kabilsingh on her controversial ordination as a Therevada nun and > her quest to establish nunhood in Thailand. > > [Note to use this link, you must use the entire address, not just > the first line] > > http://thestar.com.my/services/printerfriendly.asp? > file=/2002/8/5/features/sznun.asp&sec=features > > [Alternatively, you could try this] > > http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp? > file=/2002/8/5/features/sznun&sec=features > > [Or you can just go to the home page and drill down - I suspect that > this may only work for today as they update the home page daily] > http://thestar.com.my/ > > If all else fails and you are really keen to read the article, I > have downloaded it as a web page and can email it to you. Please > send me an email at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=194233250132038190130181031248155208071048 if this is required (please > don't use DSG posting for this). > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14742 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] forwarding to list Hi Anders, A:“Sarah and I have been discussing via email recently, and she proposed that I forwarded parts of it to the list for discussion, which I also felt appropriate”: ======== Thanks for doing this (the good folks here can always ignore us, but are welcome to butt in) and also for the photos in the album (Chris, at this rate we’ll be running out of people to nag;-)) - much appreciated. Anders: > No, this is not so. I am more than well-versed in > both the Pali and Mahayana > Canon (though not nearly as well-versed in the Pali > Canon as many of your > are) and I have found such study to be a great > benefit. I still do. ..... Ok, I wouldn’t put myself in the “well-versed in the Pali Canon” category by any means (and this isn’t any false humility;-))...... we agree on the great benefit of the study. ..... > However, it has to be done skilfully, and much of > what is done seems to be > grasping the tail instead of the head of the ox. ..... OK, we all agree on this point here, I think. ..... > Allow me to clarify: > > I think we can easily agree that the understanding > of the Dhamma is > antecedent to the spoken Dhamma. ..... Not so easily at all. If we don’t hear the spoken Dhamma (or read the written Dhamma) and carefully consider, there won’t be any understanding. Only Buddhas and Pacceka Buddhas don’t need to hear the Dhamma in the lifetime before they develop wisdom and become enlightened. ..... > However, the trend I see is a tendency to grasp the > spoken Dhamma as > understanding of Dhamma. When they should be > reversing the light towards > what the mind already holds, namely, ages of > accumulated delusion, they > instead add more views to this already deluded mind, > and stick the label of > wisdom/Dhamma on it. ..... If the intellectual understanding or the “spoken Dhamma” is taken as direct understanding it’s wrong. Agreed. Also agreed is that lobha will grasp onto anything, including the Spoken Dhamma, the knowledge of theory or anything else. I also agree that the ‘ages of accumulated delusion’ lies at the very heart of samsara and can be considered as the one real hindrance to the develpment of panna. And, yes, if intellectual understanding is clung to and not seen as merely this but has the ‘label of wisdom/Dhamma on it’, the delusion accumulates all the more. Recently (in a post to Larry), I think I was supporting these same points: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m10212.html ..... > Skilful study of the scriptures is in two parts: > > Study of the practise of Dhamma/ > > Study of the understanding of Dhamma/ > > Study of the practise of Dhamma is usually quite > straightforward. It tells > you what to do, in order to attain proper > understanding of the Dhamma. The > trap for some is that they bring up practises which > they do not yet have > capacity to carry out, because of lack of > understanding or otherwise. ..... “It tells you what to do”....hmmm.....I disagree that ‘proper understanding of the Dhamma’ can be formulated into a ‘what to do’ recipe. I’ll wait for further explanation of your meaning here. ..... > Study of the understanding of Dhamma is not so > straightforward. Here it is > necessary not to grasp at the written or spoken word > as the Dhamma itself, > but rather, to seek the understanding that produced > these words, which is > antecedent to the written word itself, an > understanding independent of > forms and conventions, which can thus be employed > freely according > circumstances. ..... If the ‘study of the practice’ and ‘study of the understanding’ are seen separately, I question both the practice and the understanding. In other words, there cannot be practice without understanding. The direct understanding of realities is the practice. This is the point Rob K was just making about the abhidhamma. If it is seen as merely an interesting theoretical construct, separate from ‘practice’, it’s quite useless. From our abhidhamma study and direct testing now, in daily life, it’s apparent that there is bound to be grasping over and over and over again, whether we’re studying abhidhamma, whether we’re sitting on a cushion, whether we’re eating lunch or at any other time. It’s not a matter of not grasping with an idea of will or freewill or self that can direct mental states, but of understanding these phenomena as they are, as conditioned and non-self. Anwyay, we agree that any idea that the written or spoken word or mastery of these as being any direct understanding is wrong and can be highly misleading. I don’t agree that we are seeking ‘the understanding (i.e. the Buddha’s understanding) that produced these words”, but do agree that it is only the direct understanding that ultimately is of any value. (Btw, you don’t mention what understanding or panna understands...) One more point I don’t agree (possible misunderstanding) with is your comment about understanding being ‘employed freely according to circumstances’.....hmmm, possible self creeping in. ..... > Knowledge of the Dhamma should not be confused with > understanding of the > Dhamma. For this reason, the Buddha himself said: > > One whose doctrines aren't clean -- > fabricated, formed, given preference > when he sees it to his own advantage -- > relies on a peace > dependent > on what can be shaken. > > Because entrenchments in views > aren't easily overcome > when considering what's grasped > among doctrines, > that's why > a person embraces or rejects a doctrine -- > in light of these very > entrenchments. > [Sutta Nipata IV.3] ..... Anders, in this sutta (Dutthatthaka Sutta), as in the suttas you quoted from before in Sutta Nipata, let’s be quite clear that the Buddha is referring to wrong views and unwholesome mental states. ‘One whose doctinres aren’t clean’. In my Saddhatissa translation, I’m reading “He whose views are mentally. constructed, causally formed, highly esteemed but not pure..”.The next but one sutta, the Paramatthaka sutta, specifically refers in the translation I have to ‘dogmatic view’ and how the ‘brahmin is not led by rule and rite’. These are wrong views or wrong understandings (i.e. the opposite of samma ditthi, the first factor of the noble 8fold Path) that are referred to. Now we really start to come to our ‘difference’ of understanding. As I read you here and in previous posts, you take all views and understandings of an intellectual nature to be wrong and needing to be relinquished. On the otherhand, what I read here and in the other passages you have quoted from, it’s apparent that ditthi refer to micha ditthi (wrong views) and it is the particular unwholesome states that are unworthy. It is not referring to moments of wise reflection or consideration or to moments of dana or samatha, but to moments that are ‘not pure’, moments of ‘arrogance’, moments of grasping of doctrines. The point is well noted here and in the recent thread on vancetti dhammas (cheating dhammas) that it’s very, very easy to kid ourselves there are ‘pure’ states when there are not. ..... > Do you understand these words? I am not sure, > because I have brought up such > quotes often in dsg, and they are rarely addressed. ..... Actually, I recall discussing them in detail in January (?) with you and believe you bowed out of this discussion. (Just found my last post to you here, I think) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7060.html Now you probably decided that when I started quoting from the abhidhamma, that I was merely ‘grasping at doctines’;-) hmm....Perhaps we can just agree -- and I thank you for pointing this out with these helpful quotes -- that we kid ourselves often and even when we are quoting the Buddha, the impure motives and the ‘personal advantage’, the ‘grasping’ and ‘rejecting’ based on ‘views’ are often apparent and often unrecognised. ..... > Since I want to make this point absolutely clear, I > offer a more in-depth > commentary: > > One whose doctrines aren't clean -- > fabricated, formed, given preference > > ========== > > What are the signs of a person with unclean > doctrines: They are fabricated, > formed. How so? They have come into being in his > mind. Ways that they can > have come into being is through reliance on the > senses, that which is seen, > heard, read, or even thought it. This is the case > for all practitioners who > have not awakened. They can only rely on the words > spoken by others, and so > their doctrine becomes fabricated. To this, they > lend preference, obviously. > As I am sure you think higher of teachings of the > Pali Canon, than that of > the Moslem fundamentalists, for instance, or even > Mahayana. Thus it is in > connection with your own self that you lend > preference to certain teachings. > > From this, we can gather that a clean doctrine is > that which is (un)?fabricated, > isn't formed. How is this found? What is formed? > What is fabricated? All > that is the product of ignorance is such. Mental > fabrications are the direct > product of ignorance and tainted with it. With the > cessation of ignorance, > so is the cessation of mental fabrications. Thus we > can discern that the > pure Dhamma is not found in the realm of thoughts, > of views. > > ========= ..... We both understand all views are fabricated or conditioned. Can we both agree that all realities (except nibbana) are indeed fabricated (sankhara)? Even moments of insight and jhana are fabricated. The 5 khandhas are indeed sankhara. We both agree that ingorance is the cause of the cycle of samsara and remains a latent tendency until arahatship is attained, I think. You mention ‘pure Dhamma’. Does this refer to moments of insight, to realization of nibbana or to nibbana itself? Anyway, of course any direct understanding is not at a thinking level, but even these moments of realization are conditioned. I also had a discussion with Erik once of the meaning of views as I believe we may be at cross purposes. Please see my post again:. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9104.html ..... > when he sees it to his own advantage -- > relies on a peace > dependent > on what can be shaken. > > ========= > > Moreover, because his understanding and practise > relies on that which is > fabricated, it can be shaken. It is not unshakeable > knowledge, and thus, it > ultimately is not different in nature from the views > of fundamentalists, > oppressors and ill-doers. The difference lies in that > the views of the Dhamma > leads to the undoing of suffering, whereas the views > of the others, lead to > more suffering. However, they are intrinsically the > same, in that they are > unclean doctrine, and are not unshakeable. They can > be influenced by that > which is seen, heard and read. In short, by the > senses. > > ========= ..... I accept your point that any theoretical view is only theoretical, is not firm, can be influenced and ‘can be shaken’ and thus does not offer any ‘security’. However, in this passage I read the emphasis to be on wrong views, ‘views in which he sees personal advantage’. these are compared with the views of those without ‘delusion and conceit’. So, I think your emphasis is a little off-track in interpretation here, useful though it may be. (maybe Rob K or Suan will fish out the Pali to help us). ..... > Because entrenchments in views > aren't easily overcome > when considering what's grasped > among doctrines, > that's why > a person embraces or rejects a doctrine -- > in light of these very > entrenchments. > > ================= > > The final part makes it clear that it is exactly > because of entrenchment in > views, that a person accepts or rejects a doctrine, > regardless of whether it > is a skilful or unskilful doctrine. ..... Can we say the entrenchment refers to attachment and wrong view? “He rejects one and grasps another?” As you point out, these states can arise regardless of the subject matter. ..... > > This also provides the key to how one attains to a > clean doctrine, which is > not fabricated, not formed, not dependent on the > senses. By overcoming > entrenchment in views. The Dhamma too, the Dhamma > that is fabricated, is > part of entrenchment in views. ..... The only non fabricated, non formed, unconditioned state is nibbana. All conditioned realities should be understood as they are. We need to hear and consider a lot about what these conditioned realities are. ..... > > From the perspective of dependent origination, all > views must be > relinquished, because they are product of ignorance, > and in order to get > beyond that ignorance, to find a doctrine that is > unformed, one must also go > beyond that which ignorance manifests in: Views. > This is not to say that > these views should be destroyed or forgotten. This > would be advocating the > annihilation of dhammas. However, they should be > comprehended, it should be > comprehended that views form a false reality, and > because of that > relinquished. > > ================ ..... Ok, let me be direct here, Anders. You seem to be ‘fixated’ on this comprehension of views (leaving aside the difference in understanding as to kinds of views). By views, you are referring to certain namas, moments of thinking accompanied by attachment or wrong view, I understand. The objects of the thinking are merely concepts and therefore don’t *exist* and cannot be known. However, there are many, many other namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena) which the Buddha discusses in detail in the suttas as well as the abhidhamma. He also makes it very apparent that without understanding these various namas and rupas when they are apparent, there cannot be any higher levels of wisdom. Yet, you seem to have no interest in clearly differentiating them or clearly differentiating conventional and absolute realities. I suggest there is a big danger in throwing out the baby with the bath water here by pointing out repeatedly the trap of clinging to theoretical understanding when we know that hearing and considering the details of all paramattha dhammas in depth is so essential for direct understanding to develop and for wrong views to be eradicated. In between the views now, there are moments of seeing, hearing, feelings and so on. Is there any understanding of them? What is the reluctance here? ..... > Feel free to make your comments on this. But > however, I would encourage you > to contemplate these words for an extended period of > time, and see how they > work in practise. > > ........ Thank you, Anders. We have a kind of agreement to learn from each other on DSG. Your reminders and quotes help me to see just a little clearer how much delusion can creep into what I say and write and thin: ignorance,. deceit, conceit, personal advantage, arrogance, unstable, grasps, entrenchments, doctrines.....relinquishing;-)) - plenty to reflect on for a very ‘extended period’ and I’m serious (for me). ..... > As far as I am concerned, none of what I wrote is > based on what I remember > from the scriptures, or I what I have thought myself it > out to be. I speak from > my direct perception of what I perceive things to > be. It just so happens > that much of this is I find in accord with the > written Dhamma. Those > points where I don't, I acknowledge my delusion, and > dependence on belief. > ....... > > As for questioning or challenging what I say, I > would encourage this. But I > wish that people would spend as much time > questioning their own views, > examining what has given rise to those views and > whether they are valid or > not, instead of grasping at externals ...... (also Anders) “The point that I am trying to make (having found the words for it know, I think), is that Buddhism is NOT about having correct understanding of the scriptures, which I think many strive for. It is about getting to the understanding that produced the scriptures. The scriptures should not be verification for your own understanding. Rather, your understanding should be verification of the scriptures.” ..... Hmm..I get the point about the moon and not the finger pointing at it. “Your understanding should be verification of the scriptures” sounds somewhat arrogant and misguided as though one is saying that the words of the Buddha are correct if they conform with what is directly known and experienced only. On this basis, most of the world’s population would therefore rightly conclude that what the Buddha taught was nonsense and would not be inclined to consider further. On the contrary, I think our ‘own understanding’ needs repeated verification by the Scriptures because wrong view is so insiduous. This verification can only be by very detailed and in depth consideration of many suttas and other texts, including the abhidhamma. Many useful reflection on my part. Look forward to your direct comments;-) Sarah ===== 14743 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 4:54pm Subject: Re: Therevada Nun in Thailand Hi Christine, I agree that Theravada Buddhism would be stronger with an order of nuns. However, I don't have a stomach for politics, particularly Sangha politics. I therefore have no comment on the six recommendations. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > A very interesting article. Brave and determined woman. Have you > read the article "Restoring the Order of Nuns to the Theravaadin > Tradition" by Senarat Wijayasundara. I wonder what you think of the > six recommendations? > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha184.htm > > metta, > Christine > > --- "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > An interesting interview in my morning paper with Dr. Chatsumarn > > Kabilsingh on her controversial ordination as a Therevada nun and > > her quest to establish nunhood in Thailand. > > > > [Note to use this link, you must use the entire address, not just > > the first line] > > > > http://thestar.com.my/services/printerfriendly.asp? > > file=/2002/8/5/features/sznun.asp&sec=features > > > > [Alternatively, you could try this] > > > > http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp? > > file=/2002/8/5/features/sznun&sec=features > > > > [Or you can just go to the home page and drill down - I suspect > that > > this may only work for today as they update the home page daily] > > http://thestar.com.my/ > > > > If all else fails and you are really keen to read the article, I > > have downloaded it as a web page and can email it to you. Please > > send me an email at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=194233250132038190130181031248155208071048 if this is required (please > > don't use DSG posting for this). > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 14744 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Noosa weekend (was, Hello message) Hi Herman, --- egberdina wrote: > Noosa sounds excellent, and the experiences that people have shared > about getting together seem very beneficial. Next weekend there's > about 20 of us going skiing at Charlotte's Pass. We are turning it > into a non-gazetted long weekend. If you have the inclination, it > would be great to discuss over a hot chocolate with a marshmallow :-) .... Sounds fun....I’ve never been skiing so I fear you’d spend all your time picking me up and sorting out the mess......just remembered Chris never got her hot choc in Noosa......Have fun, anyway. ..... > Is there any reason why these changing > > phenomena should not arise and pass away in the future too? > > > Yes, I try and have an open mind, but I have many questions. > > For example, with each moment, it is possible to have a memory of a > previous moment. Throughout a lifetime one acquires a multitude of > memories and skills (also a form of memory). The reoccurence of the > same memories creates the idea of persistence. > > So what is the difference between each passing moment in one lifetime > and moving from one life to the next. Well, for one, you loose all > your memory and all your skills from the previous lifetime. > > Pretty big difference, or am I missing something? ..... Pretty big difference as you say. Still, we can again differentiate between conventional memory and skills and paramattha dhammas. So, as we usually see things, it’s a big difference. But really, in terms of what can actually be known, there are just moments of seeing, hearing, thinking (regardless of the stories), likes and dislikes, all conditioned from previous experiences. Even a baby is thinking and marking with sanna, seeing and hearing and the likes and dislikes of one baby will be different from those of another. In other words, I think it’s the ignorance and taking the world of concepts for being reality that ‘creates the idea of persistence’, but there’s no doubt there are death and rebirth consciousness, there are different lives and different cittas which have different characteristics and so on. I think it can also be a really good reflection that all the memory and skills we attach importance to will be lost at the end of this life. As Anders would agree, the views and intellectual understanding will all be lost. Only any direct panna will be accumulated and not lost. Reflecting on death can condition calm immediatel. Not a very good answer and it's time for Tai Chi....hope someone else adds something more useful. Maybe I’m missing something....??? Sarah ======= 14745 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 6:46pm Subject: View Re: [dsg] forwarding to list --Dear Sarah and Anders, As both of you point out attachment is not understanding. And as it is said in the Patthana (last book of Abhidhamma) notes somewhere; with regard to right view(and many other objects) "taking it as estimable object arise lust, arises wrong views". I am sure we all often see this happening - considering or hearing some aspect of the sublime Dhamma and feeling how wonderful it is - but so quickly attachment to it or to pleasant feeling rushes in. The only way out is to understand these moments as they occur. If there isn't understanding of this process then attachment will grow (towards the object - in this case Dhamma) and that is a real danger, or one may be conceited about 'my' knowledge or have wrong view that 'I' understand. The Pali of the paragraph below is: 791. Di.t.thiinivesaa na hi svaativattaa, dhammesu niccheyya samuggahiita.m; tasmaa naro tesu nivesanesu, nirassatii aadiyatii ca dhamma.m. (from Suttanipata attavaggo . 3 Du.t.tha.t.thakasutta.m) The commentary equates Ditthi (view) with the 62 wrong views, dvaasa.t.thidi.t.thidhammesu ta.m (as found in the Brahmajala sutta). It looks a very interesting commentary (but rather long and way beyond my ability to translate) including mentions about dependent conditionality . Robert- --------------- Sarah wrote: > .I accept your point that any theoretical view is only theoretical, is not > firm, can be influenced and `can be shaken' and thus does not offer any > `security'. However, in this passage I read the emphasis to be on wrong > views, `views in which he sees personal advantage'. these are compared > with the views of those without `delusion and conceit'. So, I think your > emphasis is a little off-track in interpretation here, useful though it > may be. (maybe Rob K or Suan will fish out the Pali to help us). > ..... > > Because entrenchments in views > > aren't easily overcome > > when considering what's grasped > > among doctrines, > > that's why > > a person embraces or rejects a doctrine -- > > in light of these very > > entrenchments. > > > > ================= > > 14746 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 7:46pm Subject: Re: Animals -- Dear Herman, In the Visuddhimagga it details the process of a new life - where the egg of the mother unites with the sperm of the father (in slightly less technical language). Both sperm and egg are cells (according to science) larger than most bacteria (and all virus) and yet according to the Visuddhimagga are not alive - until the patisandhi citta arises sometime after they unite. And plants - which are multicelled - are called 'onefacultied' , there is no mind, they are not making kamma, they are rupa only. So my comments are an inference based on the above. Robert - "egberdina" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > For my further study I would be very grateful if you could give me > some Tipitaka references where your statement below is alluded to or > further discussed. Until now I had always thought that it was not > until last century that the likes of bacteria and viruses > were "discovered". Happy to be corrected, of course. > > All the best > > > Herman > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear Andrew, > You mention one- > > celled 'animals'. In The Dhamma such things as bacteris or virus or > > plants are not considered alive - they are simply complex > > combinations of rupa, no nama. > > 14747 From: Howard Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting the Anapanasati Sutta into practice Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/4/02 10:14:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jon writes: > Howard > > Thanks for coming in on this thread :-)) > > --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > > In a message dated 8/4/02 3:36:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Jon writes: > > > > > > > I happen to think that the Anapanasati Sutta was taught for the > > benefit of > > > those already competent in anapanasati as an aspect of samatha, and > > not > > > was not being suggested as a general practice in itself for the > > > development of insight > > =========================== > > But, Jon, the sutta quite explicitly states that anapanasati is a > > way > > to implement satipatthana. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > It depends what you mean by this. I think the question we need to > consider is something like this: Does the sutta say, 'If you develop > anapanasati, you develop satipatthana', or does it say 'If you want to > develop satipatthana, then a great way to do this is to develop > anapanasati" (I don't know if I make the distinction clear). > > I think you see the sutta as saying the second of these, rather than the > first. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Definitely what I am saying is the second and not the first. Mindfulness of breathing *as taught* in the Anapanasati Sutta and as elucidated upon by many, including, for example, Bhikkus U Silananda and Buddhadasa, is a complete system of meditative practice, but it could also be used in lesser, partial ways, most particularly only for samatha bhavana. Developing awareness of the breath strictly as a concentration on the breath, as a focussing technique, might bring the jhanas, but, by itself, would not fully implement vipassana. The instructions in the Anapanasati Sutta, that title being rendered by Buddhadasa as "Mindfulness while [not 'of'] Breathing", are quite explicit. ----------------------------------------------------------- What particular passages in the sutta would you say are> > significant in this regard? It might be useful to take a closer look. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is the following three sections (particularly the first), taken from ATI: ************************************************ (The Four Frames of Reference)"[1] Now, on whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, discerns that he is breathing out long; or breathing in short, discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, discerns that he is breathing out short; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to the entire body; trains himself to breathe in... &... out calming bodily fabrication: On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this -- the in-&-out breath -- is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to rapture; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to pleasure; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to mental fabrication; trains himself to breathe in... &... out calming mental fabrication: On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this -- close attention to in-&-out breaths -- is classed as a feeling among feelings, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out satisfying the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out steadying the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out releasing the mind: On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of confused mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on inconstancy; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on dispassion; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on cessation; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on relinquishment: On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees clearly with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who oversees with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination. (The Seven Factors for Awakening)"And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination? "[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[3] In one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, unflagging persistence is aroused. When unflagging persistence is aroused in one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then persistence as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[4] In one whose persistence is aroused, a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises. When a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises in one whose persistence is aroused, then rapture as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[5] For one who is enraptured, the body grows calm and the mind grows calm. When the body & mind of an enraptured monk grow calm, then serenity as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[6] For one who is at ease -- his body calmed -- the mind becomes concentrated. When the mind of one who is at ease -- his body calmed -- becomes concentrated, then concentration as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[7] He oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity. When he oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity, equanimity as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. [Similarly with the other three frames of reference: feelings, mind, & mental qualities.] "This is how the four frames of reference are developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. (Clear Knowing & Release)"And how are the seven factors for Awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening... persistence as a factor for Awakening... rapture as a factor for Awakening... serenity as a factor for Awakening... concentration as a factor for Awakening... equanimity as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in relinquishment. "This is how the seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. ****************************************************** > > Jon > ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14748 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati - third tetrad Dear Rob Ep, Larry and all, I have come now to the third tetrad, which Rob and Larry discussed. I paste what I have in my book The World in the Buddhist Sense and add something. Third tetrad of the sutta: (IX) He trains thus łI shall breathe in experiencing the (manner of) consciousness˛; he trains thus łI shall breathe out experiencing the (manner of) consciousness˛. (X) He trains thus łI shall breathe in gladdening the (manner of) consciousness˛; he trains thus łI shall breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness˛. (XI) He trains thus łI shall breathe in concentrating the (manner of) consciousness˛; he trains thus łI shall breathe out concentrating the (manner of) consciousness˛. (XII) He trains thus łI shall breathe in liberating the (manner of) consciousness˛; he trains thus łI shall breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness˛. The Visuddhimagga states: IX: In the third tetrad the experiencing of the (manner of) consciousness must be understood to be through four jhanas. As regards the words in the third tetrad: ł(X) I shall breathe in...breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness˛, the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 231) states that there is gladdening in two ways, namely through concentration and through insight. We read: ŚHow through concentration? He attains the two jhĺnas in which happiness (piti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them he inspires the mind with gladness, instils gladness into it, by means of the happiness associated with the jhĺna. How through insight? After entering upon and emerging from one of the two jhĺnas accompanied by happiness he comprehends with insight that happiness associated with the jhĺna as liable to destruction and to fall, thus at the actual time of insight he inspires the mind with gladness, instils gladness into it by making the happiness associated with jhĺna the object.ą XI: Concentrating (samaadaha.m) the (manner of) consciousness:"evenly > (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means > of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and fall, then at the actual time of insight momentyary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics... As regards the clause: ł(XII) I shall breathe in... breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness˛, the Visuddhimagga explains that this also must be understood as pertaining to jhĺna as well as to insight. In the first jhĺna one is liberated from the łhindrances˛, although they are not eradicated, and in each subsequent stage of jhĺna one is liberated from the jhĺna-factors, specific cetasikas which are developed in order to eliminate the hindrances. The jhĺna-factors are subsequently abandoned when one is no longer dependent on them and one is able to attain a higher and more subtle stage of jhĺna. After emerging from jhĺna the jhĺnacitta is comprehended with insight. We read (Visuddhimagga VIII, 233): Ś... at the actual time of insight he delivers, liberates the mind from the perception of permanence by means of the contemplation of impermanence, from the perception of pleasure by means of the contemplation of dukkha (suffering), from the perception of self by means of the contemplation of not self...ą As I said before, the person who attains jhana needs pa~n~naa to know when he has lobha and when the citta is kusala, with pa~n~naa so that he can truly develop jhana, and clearly discerns the jhanafactors such as rapture (happiness), not confusing it with piti arising with lobha. We have to remember that lobha clings to everything, also to kusala such as jhana, except lokuttara dhammas. When the yogavacara, the practitioner, concentrates on the meditation subject, in this case, breath, he needs right understanding and also samadhi that concentrates again and again and again, so that it can become access concentration and attainment concentration when he attains jhana. When he can have jhanacitta for many moments, there are no cittas of the sense sphere and no bhavangacittas in between. His concentration on the meditation subject is stable. The word evenly applies to jhana, when there is no disturbance by sense impressions. When he emerges from jhana and he can develop insight, there is momentray concentration with the citta that realizes the happiness of jhana as a dhamma arising and falling away. The Visuddhinmagga speaks about . The Vis. I, note 3 explains that no insight comes about without momentary concentration. At the end of this tetrad, the Vis states that this tetrad deals with contemplation of citta. I I agree with Rob that there is still a lot to explore. Some literature: Ven Soma, The Way of Mindfulness (Co to Satipatthana sutta). I always found this co to mindfulness of Breathing very difficult, did not know what the is. Now I found a footnote in M III, 118: breathing is a body because it is included in the field of touch. There are also other explanations: 25 rupas (minus the 3 lakkhana rupas?) The occasion of this sutta is interesting. How the monks developed different subjects of meditation. I consulted my Thai edition (Kom, this is Uparipannasa I, p. 376, any input most welcome if you have time). I will after the fourth tetrad come back to this Co. It states that the Buddha gave the anapanasati sutta in detail because the monks were very interested in this subject. op 28-07-2002 07:07 schreef Robert Epstein op <>: N:I hope you do not mind that I made this shorter. Rob Ep: First the commentator talks about penetration "... by > means of the first jhana and so on.", meaning the other jhanas I presume. > > Then the commentator gives his alternate example, which takes place *after* > return > from the jhanas: > > "Or alternatively when, having entered upon those jhanas and emerged from > them, he > comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable > to > destruction and to fall..." > > I'm not sure if we can put aside the fact that this act of waking discernment > is > taking place on the heels of immersion in the jhanas. Is it possible that the > preparation of the mind through the jhanas is what allows the discernment of > the > three characteristics upon return from the jhanas? I think this is implied. > > It is clear in any case, by the ubiquitous presence of the jhanas in the > example, > that the commentator is speaking to, or at least about, an advanced > practitioner > who is regularly going in and out of the jhanas. This should not only be > interesting from those who have thought that abhidhamma does not take the > jhanas > as a necessary structural object, but also for those like Jon and myself who > are > engaged in the ongoing assessment of the role of the jhanas in satisfying > Right > Concentration. It seems that the commentaries are directed to abhidhammists > who > are indeed quite involved with the practice of the jhanas. One who evenly places the mind, meaning one who evenly puts it on its object; > and > the reason they are able to put it evenly on the object is because of the > momentary unification of mind facilitated by the moment of insight in which > the > object is seen truly for its three overriding characteristics of anicca, > anatta > and dukkha. > > So: the meditator emerges from the jhanas, and as he returns to reflective > consciousness, he has a moment of insight in which he understands that even > the > jhana which he had been immersed in, a high state of concentration, is also > impermanent, lacking a self, and ultimately unsatisfying. And at the very > moment > when he realizes this about the jhana, his mind becomes unified via this > insight, > and throught his unification of mind he sees the jhana truly for what it is, > just > another arising and falling dhamma. This unifies his mind, and with his mind > thus > unified, he is able to place the mind evenly upon the object and discern it > with > complete evenness. > > Going back to the beginning of the quote, remember that the commentator starts > by > saying that the initial way in which the object may be approached with > evenness is > via the jhana itself. Within the jhanas, the commentator speaks of "evenly > (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means > of > the first jhana and so on...". > 14749 From: anders_honore Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 4:42am Subject: Re: Access to Bhikkhus (was What was wrong with Ananda) --- "Ruth Klein" wrote: > Rob, > > I listened with great appreciation to a bunch of talks given by Ajahn Brahm > (and Ajahn Nayanadhammo, who was acting abbot while Ajahn Brahm was on > retreat for 6 months). They're on the Dhammaloka website- > http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/audio.html. I have heard, however, that his > views are a little controversial. I find them both very clear, to the > point, and can't find anything to contest.... Have you any clues where/why > this view might have started? Such things happen when people grasp at the apperance of the Dhamma (whther it be the ones teaching or listening). Disagreement invariably occurs as a result. 14750 From: <> Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 7:39am Subject: ADL ch. 19 (1) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 19 (1) THE SOBHANA CITTAS IN OUR LIFE There are many different types of citta and they can be classified by way of four jatis: kusala cittas (wholesome cittas) akusala cittas (unwholesome cittas) vipakacittas (cittas which are result) kiriyacittas (cittas which are neither cause nor result) However, they can also be classified by way of sobhana, asobhana. 1. sobhana cittas, cittas accompanied by sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas. 2. asobhana cittas, cittas unaccompanied by sobhana cetasikas. Both akusala cittas and ahetuka cittas are asobhana cittas, they are not accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. As we have seen, there are twelve types of akusala citta. They are: 8 types of lobha-mula-citta (cittas rooted in attachment) 2 types of dosa-mula-citta (cittas rooted in aversion) 2 types of moha-mula-citta (cittas rooted in ignorance) As regards ahetuka cittas, they are cittas which are not accompanied by any hetus (roots). When the citta is ahetuka there are no sobhana cetasikas arising with the citta and thus ahetuka cittas are asobhana. As we have seen, there are eighteen types of ahetuka citta. Summarizing them, they are : 10 dvi-panca-vinnanas, which are ahetuka vipakacittas (the five pairs which are seeing, hearing, etc. ) 2 sampaticchana-cittas, which are ahetuka vipakacittas (one kusala vipaka and one akusala vipaka). 3 santirana-cittas, which are ahetuka vipakacittas (one akusala vipaka, one kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha, and one kusala vipaka, accompanied by somanassa). 1 panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door- adverting-consciousness) which is ahetuka kiriyacitta. 1 mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) which is ahetuka kiriyacitta. 1 hasituppada-citta, an ahetuka kiriyacitta which can produce the smile of the arahat. Thus, there are thirty asobhana cittas: twelve akusala cittas and eighteen ahetuka cittas. There are also sobhana cittas arising in our life, cittas which are accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. Three among the sobhana cetasikas are hetu, root. They are: alobha, adosa and amoha or panna. Sobhana cittas are always accompanied by alobha and adosa and they may or may not be accompanied by panna. Thus, sobhana cittas are sahetuka, accompanied by hetus. When we perform dana (generosity), observe sila (morality) or apply ourselves to bhavana (which comprises samatha, vipassana and the study or teaching of Dhamma), there are kusala cittas, accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. Thus kusala cittas are among the sobhana cittas. The kusala cittas which perform dana, observe sila or apply themselves to bhavana are cittas belonging to the lowest plane of consciousness, the sensuous plane; they are kamavacara cittas. Kamavacara cittas are the cittas we have in daily life, when, for example, we are seeing, thinking or wishing for something. Sometimes kamavacara cittas arise with sobhana hetus (beautiful roots), sometimes with akusala hetus, and sometimes without any hetus. Dana, sila or bhavana is performed by kamavacara kusala cittas; these kinds of kusala kamma can be performed in daily life, where there are impressions through the six doors. Kamavacara kusala cittas are called 'maha-kusala cittas' ('maha' means 'many' or 'great'). For those who attain jhana (absorption, developed in samatha or tranquil meditation) there is at that moment no seeing, hearing or any other sense-impression; then the citta is not kamavacara citta, but it is of a higher plane of consciousness. The jhanacittas can be rupavacara cittas (rupa-jhanacittas) or arupavacara cittas (arupa-jhanacittas). However, while one is developing samatha the cittas are maha-kusala cittas before one attains jhana. When the citta directly experiences nibbana, the citta is lokuttara bhumi (lokuttara plane of consciousness). However, lokuttara kusala cittas (magga-cittas) are preceded by maha-kusala cittas in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained. We would like to have kusala cittas more often. We may think that the circumstances of our life or other people prevent us from kusala. However, if we know the conditions for the cultivation of kusala, there will be more kusala cittas in our life. Through the study of the Dhamma we will learn how to cultivate kusala. If we have not studied Dhamma we may think that we are performing kusala, while we have, on the contrary, akusala cittas. For example, we may think that when giving something away, there are only kusala cittas. However, lobha-mula-cittas may also arise. We may give something to friends and expect them to be kind to us in return. This is not kusala, but lobha. When we study Dhamma we learn that the pure way of giving is giving without expecting anything in return. We should find out why we are giving. Do we, deep in our hearts, wish for something in return? Or do we want to have less defilements? 14751 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Access to Bhikkhus (was What was wrong with Ananda) Ruth and Anders (nice to have you back, Anders:-)) Even the Buddha's views were (and are still!) controversial, so the Ven is in good company there. However, whether a controversy over views reflects a wrong view on the part of the expounder of that view or a grasping to views on the part his critic(s) can perhaps best be determined by a close look at the particular speech/writing in question. Personally, I consider the question of someone else's right/wrong view to be pretty much a waste of time. Discussion of what is right view as found in the teachings, however, is another thing altogether, and is always of value, to my thinking. Jon --- anders_honore wrote: > --- "Ruth Klein" wrote: > > Rob, > > > > I listened with great appreciation to a bunch of talks given by > Ajahn Brahm > > (and Ajahn Nayanadhammo, who was acting abbot while Ajahn Brahm > was on > > retreat for 6 months). They're on the Dhammaloka website- > > http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/audio.html. I have heard, however, > that his > > views are a little controversial. I find them both very clear, to > the > > point, and can't find anything to contest.... Have you any clues > where/why > > this view might have started? > > Such things happen when people grasp at the apperance of the Dhamma > (whther it be the ones teaching or listening). Disagreement > invariably occurs as a result. 14752 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 1:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana for Children Hi Rob M, I’m glad your talk on metta went well and I’m also appreciating all your contributions here. --- robmoult wrote: > Many parents want to introduce Buddhism to our children at a young > age. Unfortunately, concepts such as suffering, impermanence and no- > soul are meaningless to young children. Young children learn by > doing. Young children learn from routines. Young children are most > receptive at bedtime. Gregory Kramer shows how he has used Metta > meditation with his young children using all these principles. ..... I agree with your comments and the principles G.Kramer applies. I mentioned at the start of my comments before that one of the two most controversial aspects of discussions on DSG concerning metta have revolved around the widely held interpretation that metta has to begin with oneself. Without wishing to re-open this discussion particularly, I think it would be more helpful (and accurate) to encourage children to start considering the welfare of others rather than themselves in this way, or to consider first what makes the child happy and then apply it to others: “Loving-kindness has the characteristic of promoting the welfare (of living beings); its function is to provide for THEIR welfare , or its function is to remove resentment; its manifestation is kinliness; seing the agreeable side of beings is its proximate cause.” Cariyapitaka,as quoted by BB in Brahmajala Sutta and Cos.,p.250) It may seem like nit-picking, but obviously we only teach or guide others according to our own understanding of qualities like metta. ***** > Last Vesak, I attended a Dhamma talk by Dr. Ingrid Jordt (she was > visiting Malaysia). She spent some time as a Buddhist nun in Burma, > but is now married and raising a daughter. She explained how she > introduced vipassana meditation to her infant daughter. > > Each night, at bedtime, when her daughter was in her crib, she would > touch her daughter's head and say, "this is your head". She would > then touch her daughter's neck and say, "this is your neck". She > would progress down her daughter's body. When her daughter was old > enough to understand words, Ingrid told her daughter to touch her > own head, touch her own neck, etc. After this routine had been > established, one night, Ingrid told her daughter to touch her head, > not with her hand, but with her mind. A flash of understanding came > across her daughter's face. She understood that she could direct her > own mind. Later, when the daughter could talk, she did not say > things such as, "I am angry", but rather, "I have an angry mind". > How many preschoolers do you know that can note mental states? ***** This is interesting and I don’t doubt there is value in it. It reminds me of some other practices (not necessarily Buddhist). I question, however, the connection with vipassana, just as I question whether other more popular meditation practices for adults are vipassana bhavana. Vipassana or ‘insight’ is the development of panna (wisdom) which understands realities as anatta. Again, this may seem to be a quibble, but you may wish to raise the issue again of ‘directing the mind’ when you are ready to consider freewill and anatta in depth. The understanding we have of metta or any other mental states is largely determined by this understanding of anatta and of paramattha dhammas I believe. Note: I am not suggesting changes in your Notes or references, merely raising points for discussion and consideration;-) I’d also be glad to hear of any of your own experiences (or anyone else’s) with your children. Sarah p.s. If you have a pic of your family you’d like to share with us all in the DSG album I won’t rush to get a shop to scan in the Sheraton one of our pleasant gathering. ===== 14753 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana for Children Hi Sarah, My kids (aged 10 and 12) attend my Abhidhamma class. After the class, I ask them what they remembered and frankly, it ain't much. But who knows how much is being registered for later recall? Regarding Vipassana for Children, I sent an email to Dr. Jordt asking her to write a 600 word (very short) summary of her experience for my class notes - she hasn't replied yet, perhaps she is doing research in Burma. I think remember what I think I heard three months ago, but her version will be more authentic. I believe that she is an experienced vipassana meditator and probably views her steps with her daughter as appropriate for the situation (the daughter's age). I don't want to put words into her mouth, so I hope she replies to my email. Thanks, Rob M :-) PS: Sorry, no recent pics of my family (I am never home long enough). --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > I'm glad your talk on metta went well and I'm also appreciating all your > contributions here. > > --- robmoult wrote: > > > Many parents want to introduce Buddhism to our children at a young > > age. Unfortunately, concepts such as suffering, impermanence and no- > > soul are meaningless to young children. Young children learn by > > doing. Young children learn from routines. Young children are most > > receptive at bedtime. Gregory Kramer shows how he has used Metta > > meditation with his young children using all these principles. > ..... > I agree with your comments and the principles G.Kramer applies. I > mentioned at the start of my comments before that one of the two most > controversial aspects of discussions on DSG concerning metta have revolved > around the widely held interpretation that metta has to begin with > oneself. Without wishing to re-open this discussion particularly, I think > it would be more helpful (and accurate) to encourage children to start > considering the welfare of others rather than themselves in this way, or > to consider first what makes the child happy and then apply it to others: > > "Loving-kindness has the characteristic of promoting the welfare (of > living beings); its function is to provide for THEIR welfare , > or its function is to remove resentment; its manifestation is kinliness; > seing the agreeable side of beings is its proximate cause." > Cariyapitaka,as quoted by BB in Brahmajala Sutta and Cos.,p.250) > > It may seem like nit-picking, but obviously we only teach or guide others > according to our own understanding of qualities like metta. > ***** > > Last Vesak, I attended a Dhamma talk by Dr. Ingrid Jordt (she was > > visiting Malaysia). She spent some time as a Buddhist nun in Burma, > > but is now married and raising a daughter. She explained how she > > introduced vipassana meditation to her infant daughter. > > > > Each night, at bedtime, when her daughter was in her crib, she would > > touch her daughter's head and say, "this is your head". She would > > then touch her daughter's neck and say, "this is your neck". She > > would progress down her daughter's body. When her daughter was old > > enough to understand words, Ingrid told her daughter to touch her > > own head, touch her own neck, etc. After this routine had been > > established, one night, Ingrid told her daughter to touch her head, > > not with her hand, but with her mind. A flash of understanding came > > across her daughter's face. She understood that she could direct her > > own mind. Later, when the daughter could talk, she did not say > > things such as, "I am angry", but rather, "I have an angry mind". > > How many preschoolers do you know that can note mental states? > ***** > This is interesting and I don't doubt there is value in it. It reminds me > of some other practices (not necessarily Buddhist). I question, however, > the connection with vipassana, just as I question whether other more > popular meditation practices for adults are vipassana bhavana. Vipassana > or `insight' is the development of panna (wisdom) which understands > realities as anatta. Again, this may seem to be a quibble, but you may > wish to raise the issue again of `directing the mind' when you are ready > to consider freewill and anatta in depth. The understanding we have of > metta or any other mental states is largely determined by this > understanding of anatta and of paramattha dhammas I believe. > > Note: I am not suggesting changes in your Notes or references, merely > raising points for discussion and consideration;-) I'd also be glad to > hear of any of your own experiences (or anyone else's) with your children. > > Sarah > p.s. If you have a pic of your family you'd like to share with us all in > the DSG album I won't rush to get a shop to scan in the Sheraton one of > our pleasant gathering. > ===== 14754 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness Hi Larry, --- <> wrote: > Sarah: "I would suggest that hindrances to the development of samatha > are one thing, hindrances to 'clear seeing' of realities are another and > hindrances to remembering what our watch says or not getting run over or > not losing items are quite another." > > Hi Sarah, I was going to ask Nina this question but since you brought it > up, I will ask you. So what are these three sets of hindrances? ..... Nina has also been discussing the hindrances in more detail. Let me suggest these; 1. Hindrances to the development of samatha: ================================= *kamacchanda -sensuous desire *vyapada -ill-will *thina-middha -sloth and torpor *udhacca-kukkucca - restlessness and worry *vicikiccha -doubt (*avijja -ignorance) these hindrances are temporarily ‘suspended’ on entering the first absorption (upacara samadhi). 2. Hindrances to the development of satipatthana ==================================== *ignorance any unwholesome state can be said to ‘weaken’ insight in the sense of being counter-productive but are not hindrances in that awareness can be and must be aware of any reality arising. Ignorance ‘is the major obstacle to the arising of wisdom’ (CMA, B.Bodhi p.267) (See past discussions under ‘Hindrances’ also in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 3. Hindrances to conventionally understood mindfulness ======================================== *doing too many things at once *being distracted *putting items down in the ‘wrong’ places *changes of routine * * add your own - in other words, conventional ‘situations’ that have little if anything to do with the development (or lack of) wholesome states. ***** > > As to what is perfect memory, since sanna accompanies every citta then > every citta and all its cetasikas and arammana throughout every lifetime > must be recallable (theoretically). It is said arahats can recall > previous lives, some more than others. So we all have perfect memories > but there is great variability in ability to remember a memory. ..... Yes, understood. Of course, any recollection by the arahats of previous states or lives is with wholesome cittas and with highly developed jhanic concentration and special powers. For us, when there is the recalling of childhood states or experiences even, it’s likely to be with attachment, aversion or ignorance and even then, it’s always a ‘story’, so it is really hard to understand the recollections of the Buddha or these arahats, even in theory, I think. Happy to hear any other opinions. Sarah ==== 14755 From: corvus121 Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 5:34pm Subject: Thought for the day When Buddha points the way, don't just keep staring at his finger. - taken from "Dharma the Cat: Philosophy with Fur" Cheers everyone Andrew 14756 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 7:30pm Subject: Moderators' reminder – trim those tails! Dear All, Just a reminder to trim *all parts* of previous posts that are not necessary to your reply. Also, please put your reply at the beginning rather than at the end of long messages wherever possible. These points assist those reading in digest form, those who print out messages or those reading in haste. Thanks, Jon & Sarah (who also forget at times) 14757 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 8:33pm Subject: Re: Vegetarianism -- Dear RobM and All, I was looking over the suttanipata today and found this interesting sutta preached by Kassapa buddha. In this sutta the Buddha Kassapa refutes the idea of the ascetic Tissa that by abstaining from eating meat etc. one is pure.. Extract: "When men are rough and harsh, backbiting, treacherous, without compassion, haughty, ungenerous and do not give anything to anybody; this is uncleanness and not the eating of flesh." "Neither abstaining from flesh or fish, nor fasting, nor nakedness, nor tonsure, nor matted hair, nor dirt, nor rough skins, nor the worshipping of the fire, nor the many immortal penances in the world, nor hymns, nor oblations, nor sacrifice, nor observance of the season, purify a mortal who has not conquered his doubt." Thus the blessed one preached this again and again and that Brahmin who was well versed in the ancient lore understood it; for the sage free from defilements, detached and hard to track uttered this in beautiful verses. Iccetamattha.m bhagavaa punappuna.m, akkhaasi na.m ‚vedayi mantapaaraguu. citraahi gaathaahi munii pakaasayi, niraamagandho asito durannayo. Having listened to the well-preached word of the Buddha, which is free from defilement, and which ends all misery, he paid homage to the Tathagatha with humble spirit and begged to be admitted into the order at that very place. (translation by the editors of the light of the Dhamma Burma) Sutvaana buddhassa subhaasita.m pada.m, niraamagandha.m sabbadukkhappanuudana.m; niicamano vandi tathaagatassa, tattheva pabbajjamarocayitthaati. Robert - "robmoult" wrote: > Hi all, > > I was eating a burger with a Christian friend and he said, "I > thought that Buddhists were supposed to be vegetarian." > > I 14758 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 9:40pm Subject: Pali Dear group, I read this inspiring article today for those who are learning some pali terms http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism//seintun1.htm 14759 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 10:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali Dear Robert, Thank you for sharing this most inspiring of articles. It really helped to support me learning more pali. I shall forward it on to other interested people. Thanks, Shakti "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: Dear group, I read this inspiring article today for those who are learning some pali terms http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism//seintun1.htm 14760 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 11:27pm Subject: Noble Eightfold Path - Somewhat Urgent Hi All, Sorry, I am late in preparing for this week's class and I need your help! I have finished with the wholesome universal cetasikas and I am now going to start on the wholesome occasional cetasikas. First are the three abstinences; abstinence from wrong speech (vaci- duccarita virati), abstinence from wrong action (kaya-duccarita virati) and abstinence from wrong livelihood (ajiva-duccarita virati). My first question is why where only these three picked out from the eightfold noble path? In other words, why are there not kusala cetasikas for "abstinence from wrong view" (or is this panna?), "abstinence from wrong intention", "abstinence from wrong effort", "abstinence from wrong mindfulness" and "abstinence from wrong concentration"? I understand that right speech, right action, and right livelihood collectively make up the first of the three divisions of the path, the division of moral discipline (silakkhandha). What I do not understand is how this qualifies them for their own cetasikas. This particularly true since speech, action and livelihood are only indirectly linked to mental states (especially livelihood). It would seem to me that the other five factors are much more closely linked to mental states and therefore are "more deserving" of having their own cetasikas. I intend to expand on the subject of the three abstinences by making the theme of my lecture, "Applying the Noble Eighfold Path in Daily Life". My idea is to define each factor and then give a few pointers about how to apply this factor in daily life. "Applying a factor in daily life" can take one of two forms; either causing one to perform some action that might not otherwise be performed (such as daily meditation), or causing one to adopt a different perspective than is commonly held; a new perspective that helps one understand/manage/cope with daily realities. I am summarizing Bhikkhu Bodhi's Book, "The Eightfold Noble Path - The Way to the End of Suffering" for a handout on the "theory". Here is the site: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html What I am looking for from the DSG are specific suggestions on how to apply factors in daily life. As a quick summary, here is a factorial analysis of the Noble Eightfold Path: - Right view (Understanding suffering, Understanding its origin, Understanding its cessation, Understanding the way leading to its cessation) - Right intention (Intention of renunciation, Intention of good will, Intention of harmlessness) - Right speech (Abstaining from false speech, Abstaining from slanderous speech, Abstaining from harsh speech, Abstaining from idle chatter) - Right action (Abstaining from taking life, Abstaining from stealing, Abstaining from sexual misconduct) - Right livelihood (Giving up wrong livelihood, One earns one's living by a right form of livelihood) - Right effort (The effort to restrain defilements, The effort to abandon defilements, The effort to develop wholesome states, The effort to maintain wholesome states) - Right mindfulness (Mindful contemplation of the body, Mindful contemplation of feelings, Mindful contemplation of the mind, Mindful contemplation of phenomena) - Right concentration (The first / second / third / fourth jhana) I'm sorry, but I need your input in the next day or two to prepare for this Sunday's talk. Again, what I am looking for from the DSG are a few simple, practial ideas for each factor... I will get all the theory I need from Bhikhu Bodhi's book. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14761 From: Ruth Klein Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 11:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Noble Eightfold Path - Somewhat Urgent Just an obtuse observation, and I don't know if this has any relevance, but speech, action and livihood are all external... something that can be observed by an 'outsider' (if you will) as an action. Intention, effort, mindfullness and concentration are internal, more like thought processes and cannot be obseved by another being. To use the analogy of a method actor, who performs an action with the 'feeling' to flow through the action. If you do the perform an action often enough, right view may follow?????? Am I making any sense??? Namaste, Ruth > -----Original Message----- > From: robmoult [mailto:<>] > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:28 AM > Subject: [dsg] Noble Eightfold Path - Somewhat Urgent > > > Hi All, > > Sorry, I am late in preparing for this week's class and I need your > help! > > I have finished with the wholesome universal cetasikas and I am now > going to start on the wholesome occasional cetasikas. > > First are the three abstinences; abstinence from wrong speech (vaci- > duccarita virati), abstinence from wrong action (kaya-duccarita > virati) and abstinence from wrong livelihood (ajiva-duccarita > virati). > > My first question is why where only these three picked out from the > eightfold noble path? In other words, why are there not kusala > cetasikas for "abstinence from wrong view" (or is this > panna?), "abstinence from wrong intention", "abstinence from wrong > effort", "abstinence from wrong mindfulness" and "abstinence from > wrong concentration"? I understand that right speech, right action, > and right livelihood collectively make up the first of the three > divisions of the path, the division of moral discipline > (silakkhandha). What I do not understand is how this qualifies them > for their own cetasikas. This particularly true since speech, action > and livelihood are only indirectly linked to mental states > (especially livelihood). It would seem to me that the other five > factors are much more closely linked to mental states and therefore > are "more deserving" of having their own cetasikas. > [remainder delted] 14762 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noble Eightfold Path - Somewhat Urgent hi RobM, Just a few random comments, may or may not help with your class notes, but may be thought provoking. 1) I see the 8fp not as a daily activity, but a moment to moment activity. daily is really not setting a proper goal to strive for (IMHO). 8fp should be (IMHO) 24hr/7days a week, all the time, through sleep, illness, till you die, and after you die, until the time of your enlightenment. 2) I tend to focus more of the my time analyzing/practicing right view, right mindfulness, right effort. The morality division, as you pointed out, could have been formulated in a number of ways and still retain essentially the same meaning. Right view especially deserves a disproportionate amount of attention. Once one has right view, then morality just becomes an obvious outflow, not something we need to constantly check whether we conform to moral laws declared by some religion. I see the moral division of the 8fp as a necessary part just as a sanity check so that novices with undeveloped right view do not practice distorted morals, but if too much attention is focused on the moral division instead of developing and expanding understanding of right view, then there is a danger of the buddhist just following commandments (trying to obey the letter of the law) without understanding the principle behind it. -fk 14763 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vegetarianism --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > -- > Dear RobM and All, > I was looking over the suttanipata today and found > this interesting > sutta preached by Kassapa buddha. > > In this sutta the Buddha Kassapa refutes the idea of > the ascetic > Tissa that by abstaining from eating meat etc. one > is pure.. > I would like to point out that Buddhas did not prohibit or discourage their followers from all ascetic practices. Some austerities, such as practicing dhamma diligently, are encouraged. Ascetic practices certainly would not guarantee purity of mind, but neither does practicing the 8fold noble path. Does that mean we should stop practicing 8fold path? Does that mean we should automatically reject ALL ascetic practices because they don't guarantee purity of mind? The Buddha did not require his followers to be vegetarian, and that is a testament to his wisdom. But he did not discourage for forbid people from being vegetarian, as he does some ascetic practices. This is something to really think about, and not just simply assume we could all easily attain purity of mind while enjoying eating whatever we like. -fk 14764 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thus have I heard Dear Howard, It is O.K. I am used to it that there are errors in translations. That is why I like to check the Pali. I thought of you when I just came across a text in the first Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasamgani (Buddhist Psychological Ethics, p. 157), Book II, Ch I, on Rupa: a long list with many attributes of rupa, and one of them: That means, rupa is cognized also through the mind-door. Thus we see that this is not only in the Commentaries. Thank you for getting the Anapana Sati sutta on line. I do not know what ATI is. It helps when I shall refer to it. Unfortunately the beginning of the sutta is on this online edition missing. In my edition of the Middle Length Saings, III, no. 118, it is mentioned where the sutta has been spoken, to whom, on what occasion. When Ananda said, evam me suttam, thus have I heard, he remembered all these things. By whom it was spoken, when, where, why. It is important to know. What kind of bhikkhus were they? Could they attain immediately, even after hearing a few words, or after hearing a more lengthy explanation, or after having been guided again and again (those who have to be guided, neyyo)? These are three types of people who had accumulated sufficient wisdom to attain enlightenment in that life. Or were they people who could not attain enlightenment in that life, although they understood the meaning of the words and accumulated understanding (pada parama). In the Co to the Mangala Sutta, Good Omen Discourse (Minor Readings and Illustrator, V) there is an explanation of , thus have I heard. You will also find here the history of the first Council. Sarah wrote several posts on this subject, as you know. Best wishes from Nina. op 05-08-2002 03:33 schreef Howard op Howard: > So, the bottom line on this, it seems to me, is that you and Nina > actually think the Bhikkhu was in error on this, or at least was playing a > bit fast and loose with his terminology. This, of course, is a possibility - > being a Bhikkhu doesn't make one infallible. ;-)) > 14765 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Dear Larry, Tranquillity is not the same as insight. We cannot say that through jhana the three characteristics are understood. It is more like this: pa~n~naa understands also jhana as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Jhana is not common or ordinary, it is a high degree of kusala. But not everybody can attain it. See all the conditions that are necessary, and the role of pa~n~naa of the level of samatha that is essential. I myself find the subject of anapana sati very difficult, and I like to go slowly to have more understanding of it. If we go too quickly we cannot absorp what we study. But is it not useful to understand somewhat more the details? Maybe the subject is more intricate than we thought at first, and this is a gain. Best wishes from Nina. op 04-08-2002 21:45 schreef <> op <>: > > However, one thing I am doubtful of is the _purpose_ of jhana > (tranquility). There are some few, slight indications here and there > that with jhana we begin to understand the three characteristics. I > wonder if we can view jhana as a more common, ordinary phenomenon, not > so exclusive. The way the 7 stages of the path of purification is laid > out, jhana comes right after sila and before purification of view. > However, jhana doesn't really seem to be interested in insight. To me, > the logic of it says its purpose is solely for tranquility and it > advances from stage to stage by recognizing possibilities of greater > tranquility through fewer qualities. But tranquility only seems like a > valuable state because of anicca,dukkha, anatta. 14766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 1:00am Subject: The Perfections by A. Sujin. Ch 4, Renunciation, no 1. Ch 4. Renunciation, no. 1 The Commentary to the łBasket of Conduct˛ defines the perfection of renunciation as follows: Renunciation (nekkhamma) has the characteristic of departing from sense pleasures and existence; its function is to verify the unsatisfactoriness they involve; its manifestation is the withdrawal from them; a sense of spiritual urgency (samvega) is its proximate cause. The perfection of renunciation is the giving up of pleasure, clinging, and the ways of wrong thinking that are: sensuous thinking (kĺma vitakka), thinking of hate (vyĺpĺda vitakka) and thinking of cruelty (vihimsĺ vitakka). These unwholesome ways of thinking can be given up by becoming a monk or by the development of satipatthĺna. When someone gives up thoughts of sense pleasures, of hate and of harming others, he is developing the perfection of renunciation. Generally people believe that one can practise renunciation only by becoming a monk, but in order to understand the real meaning of renunciation we have to consider the different types of citta that are thinking, be they kusala or akusala. We usually think in our daily life in an unwholesome way of the sense objects: of visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, thus, there is sensuous thinking, kĺma vitakka. Can we avoid thinking of sense objects with pleasure, infatuation and clinging? The opposite of sensuous thinking is thinking of renunciation (nekkhamma vitakka). Renunciation, departing from sense pleasures, is practised not only by entering the state of monkhood, which is a superior state, but it can also be practised by laypeople in daily life. Did we ever consider to abandon sense pleasures? Are we becoming disenchanted with sense objects? We have attachment to visible object, sound and the other sense objects; we do not have to give them up, but do we want ever more of them? If we have not yet enough of them we give in to sensuous thinking, whereas if we find that we have quite sufficient of them, we have thoughts of renunciation. When we continue to crave for ever more sense pleasures, it shows that we have defilements. We should ask ourselves whether we wish to have more defilements. Each time we are attached to visible object and the other sense objects, defilements arise. If we do not realize that we have already a great deal of defilements, the thought of renunciation will not arise. We may want to obtain ever more pleasant sense objects and never be contented with what we have already. We do not have to become a monk in order to develop renunciation, but we could ask ourselves whether we have already enough pleasant things, and whether we wish to have ever more of them. It may happen that we, for example, do not wish to buy more clothing again that merely serve as beautification of the body, and we may consider what we have as more than sufficient. In that case there is renunciation in daily life. We should begin to investigate and consider with regard to ourselves whether our possessions are already sufficient; we should become contented with what we have. If we obtain more than we need, we could give it away if it can be of use to others. In that way the perfection of renunciation develops. Instead of sensuous thinking there can be thinking of renunciation. If we want to eradicate defilements it is essential to consider the perfections in our daily life. We should reflect on the Buddhaąs former lives, on his conduct leading to Buddhahood. We may think the stories about his former lives just very ordinary, but, in fact, these stories deal with the perfections the Bodhisatta developed during all those lives. 14767 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 4:50am Subject: Meaning in Life Dear All, The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma support the search for Meaning in life? It seems to me to have the opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something worthwhile - metta, Christine 14768 From: Howard Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thus have I heard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/6/02 1:02:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nina writes: > > Dear Howard, > It is O.K. I am used to it that there are errors in translations. That is > why I like to check the Pali. > I thought of you when I just came across a text in the first Book of the > Abhidhamma, the Dhammasamgani (Buddhist Psychological Ethics, p. 157), Book > II, Ch I, on Rupa: a long list with many attributes of rupa, and one of > them: That means, rupa is > cognized also through the mind-door. Thus we see that this is not only in > the Commentaries. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep! Thanks for this. ----------------------------------------------------- > Thank you for getting the Anapana Sati sutta on line. I do not know what ATI > is. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm sorry. It's Access to Insight. ------------------------------------------------------- It helps when I shall refer to it. Unfortunately the beginning of the> > sutta is on this online edition missing. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Do you mean missing from what I quoted? I only quoted part of the sutta in reply to Jon's inquiry. ----------------------------------------------------- In my edition of the Middle Length> > Saings, III, no. 118, it is mentioned where the sutta has been spoken, to > whom, on what occasion. When Ananda said, evam me suttam, thus have I > heard, > he remembered all these things. By whom it was spoken, when, where, why. It > is important to know. What kind of bhikkhus were they? Could they attain > immediately, even after hearing a few words, or after hearing a more > lengthy > explanation, or after having been guided again and again (those who have to > be guided, neyyo)? These are three types of people who had accumulated > sufficient wisdom to attain enlightenment in that life. Or were they people > who could not attain enlightenment in that life, although they understood > the meaning of the words and accumulated understanding (pada parama). > In the Co to the Mangala Sutta, Good Omen Discourse (Minor Readings and > Illustrator, V) there is an explanation of , thus have I > heard. You will also find here the history of the first Council. Sarah > wrote > several posts on this subject, as you know. > Best wishes from Nina. > > op 05-08-2002 03:33 schreef Howard op Howard: > > So, the bottom line on this, it seems to me, is that you and Nina > > actually think the Bhikkhu was in error on this, or at least was playing > a > > bit fast and loose with his terminology. This, of course, is a > possibility - > > being a Bhikkhu doesn't make one infallible. ;-)) > > > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14769 From: Howard Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meaning in Life Hi, Christine - In a message dated 8/6/02 4:51:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > > Dear All, > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > support the search for Meaning in life? It seems to me to have the > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > worthwhile - > > metta, > Christine > ================================ My view is that Abhidhamma, to the extent that it correctly presents the Buddha's vision, which I largely think is true, is primarily helpful as an adjunct to Buddhist practice. An ongoing mindfulness practice, including both formal meditation and informal mindfulness practice, leads to certain insights which can be checked against descriptions in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, which can serve as a corrective or a clarification or a corroboration. But I see far less value in Abhidhamma if one has no corresponding ongoing practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14770 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 7:18am Subject: RE: [dsg] Noble Eightfold Path - Somewhat Urgent Dear Rob M, > -----Original Message----- > From: robmoult [mailto:<>] > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:28 AM > Subject: [dsg] Noble Eightfold Path - Somewhat Urgent > > > First are the three abstinences; abstinence from wrong speech (vaci- > duccarita virati), abstinence from wrong action (kaya-duccarita > virati) and abstinence from wrong livelihood (ajiva-duccarita > virati). > > My first question is why where only these three picked out from the > eightfold noble path? In other words, why are there not kusala > cetasikas for "abstinence from wrong view" (or is this > panna?), "abstinence from wrong intention", "abstinence from wrong > effort", "abstinence from wrong mindfulness" and "abstinence from > wrong concentration"? I understand that right speech, right action, > and right livelihood collectively make up the first of the three > divisions of the path, the division of moral discipline > (silakkhandha). What I do not understand is how this qualifies them > for their own cetasikas. This particularly true since speech, action > and livelihood are only indirectly linked to mental states > (especially livelihood). It would seem to me that the other five > factors are much more closely linked to mental states and therefore > are "more deserving" of having their own cetasikas. The cetasikas are classified into 52 according to their characteristics (sabhava) each distinct from one another. There are exactly 3 virati cetasikas because there are no more, nor there are fewer than, 3 cetasikas that have the characteristics of abstaining. > > I intend to expand on the subject of the three abstinences by making > the theme of my lecture, "Applying the Noble Eighfold Path in Daily > Life". My idea is to define each factor and then give a few pointers > about how to apply this factor in daily life. "Applying a factor in > daily life" can take one of two forms; either causing one to perform > some action that might not otherwise be performed (such as daily > meditation), or causing one to adopt a different perspective than is > commonly held; a new perspective that helps one > understand/manage/cope with daily realities. According to my understanding, the 8-fold path (the 5-fold, in the lokiya path) is developed when there is mindfullness arising to know realities as they truly are. If one perform silas (abstain from wrong doing, speech) without knowing the realities, it is not the path, even if it supports the path. Sila alone may be called samma-vaca, samma-kammanta, or samma-achiva, but sila alone is not the path. > > I'm sorry, but I need your input in the next day or two to prepare > for this Sunday's talk. Again, what I am looking for from the DSG > are a few simple, practial ideas for each factor... I will get all > the theory I need from Bhikhu Bodhi's book. > My belief is that the best way to apply the 8 fold path in daily life is to develop wisdom and mindfulness. To support the path, one performs kusala at all levels including: a) metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha for all people around you - be friendly to others: say hello, pay attention to, and help, if possible, others' well being - be courteous and considerate: holding the door open, cleaning up so others may do things comfortably, allowing people to move in front when you are driving, speak pleasant speeches. - be helpful with tasks, when asked for help. - be moderate when taking shared resources - be generous b) the 10 objects of wholesomeness including i) Gift to others: including objects, non-object gift that brings fearlessness, and dhamma. ii) Dedication/making known one's kusala so other may rejoice iii) rejoice in other kusala iv) abstention from wrong deed, speech, and livelihood v) giving respect for those deserving the respect (parents, teachers, elders, etc.) vi) helping in tasks that are appropriate vii) listen to the dhamma (to learn more about the truths) viii) discussing dhammas ix) samatha and vipassana development x) making one thought, memory, and knowledge straight in accordance to reality (to dhammas) kom 14771 From: <> Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 7:30am Subject: ADL ch. 19 (2) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 19 (2) People have different accumulations and because of these accumulations kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. For example, when people visit a temple and see others presenting gifts to the monks, they may, because of their different accumulations, react in different ways. Some people may appreciate someone else's good deeds; others may not be interested at all. If one would only know the value of kusala and realize that appreciating the good deeds of others is a way of dana (generosity), one would use more opportunities to cultivate wholesomeness. If the Buddha had not attained enlightenment and taught Dhamma we would not have any means of knowing ourselves thoroughly; we would not have a precise knowledge of our kusala cittas and akusala cittas and of the conditions through which they arise. The Buddha taught people how to cultivate wholesomeness and to eradicate defilements and thus, living according to the precepts and performing other kinds of wholesomeness is the way to pay respect to him. We read in the 'Maha-Parinibbana-sutta' (Dialogues of the Buddha II, No. 16, Ch.V, 137, 138) that before the Buddha passed away, the twin Sala trees, which were full of flowers although it was not the season, dropped their flowers all over his body, heavenly Mandarava-flowers and sandalwood-powder descended on his body and heavenly music sounded out of reverence for him. The Buddha said to Ananda: 'Now it is not thus, Ananda, that the Tathagata is rightly honoured, reverenced, venerated, held sacred or revered. But the monk or the sister, the devout man or the devout woman, who continually fulfills all the greater and the lesser duties, who is correct in life, walking according to the precepts- - it is he who rightly honours, reverences, venerates, holds sacred, and reveres the Tathagata with the worthiest homage. Therefore, Ananda, be constant in the fulfillment of the greater and of the lesser duties, and be correct in life, walking according to the precepts; and thus, Ananda, should it be taught.' We all have in our daily life opportunities for dana and sila. As regards bhavana, this comprises samatha, vipassana, studying Dhamma or explaining it to others. Not only the monks, but also laypeople can study and teach Dhamma. We read in the 'MahaParinibbana-sutta' (Ch. III, l12, l13) that the Buddha told Ananda that Mara, the Evil One, had said to the Buddha after his enlightenment that it was now the time for him to pass away. The Buddha said: And when he had thus spoken, Ananda, I addressed Mara, the Evil One, and said:- -'I shall not pass away, O Evil One! until not only the monks and sisters of the Order, but also the laydisciples of either sex shall have become true hearers, wise and well trained, ready and learned, carrying the teachings in their memory, masters of the lesser corolaries that follow from the larger doctrine, correct in life, walking according to the precepts-- until they, having thus themselves learned the doctrine, shall be able to tell others of it, preach it, make it known, establish it, open it, minutely explain it and make it clear-- until they, when others start vain doctrine easy to be refuted by the truth, shall be able in refuting it to spread the wonderworking truth abroad! I shall not die until this pure religion of mine shall have become successful, prosperous, widespread, and popular in all its full extent-- until, in a word, it shall have been well proclaimed among men!' The fact that we are able to perform wholesome deeds in our lives is due to conditions, it is not due to a self. We read in the 'Tenfold Series' (Dialogues of the Buddha III, No. 34, Ch. IV, 276) about factors which are helpful : Four... that help much: -- four 'wheels', to wit, the orbit of a favourable place of residence, the orbit of association with the good, perfect adjustment of one's self, the cycle of merit wrought in the past. As regards a favourable place of residence, living in a Buddhist country can be a helpful condition for kusala cittas. Then one has the opportunity to visit temples and to listen to the preaching of Dhamma. The Dhamma can change our life and it is the condition for the performing of wholesome deeds, for dana, sila and bhavana. As regards 'association with the good', this means association with the right friend in Dhamma. If one, even though living in a Buddhist country, does not meet the right friend in Dhamma who can help in the search for the truth, one lacks the condition which is most helpful for the cultivation of wisdom and the eradication of defilements. 'Perfect adjustment of one's self' is 'adjusting oneself' with kusala as the goal. There are many degrees of kusala. If one develops the wisdom of the Eightfold Path by being mindful of nama and rupa, there will be less clinging to the concept of self. If there is mindfulness of nama and rupa while performing wholesome deeds, one will come to realize that no self, no person performs these deeds. Thus kusala kamma will become purer and eventually defilements will be eradicated. The accumulation of kusala in the past is the fourth factor which is helpful. If we haven't accumulated kusala in the past how can we do good deeds in the present? The kusala kammas which were accumulated in the past are the condition for us to go to the right place and meet the right people. It is kamma which causes one to be born in a Buddhist Country or to live in a Buddhist country. The kusala accumulated in the past conditions our study and practice of the Dhamma at the present time. If we consider the factors in our life which are the conditions for kusala we will better understand that it is not self which performs good deeds. 14772 From: <> Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness Hi Sarah, I think there must be doctrinal lists of hindrances to insight and hindrances to recollection as there is a list of hindrances to jhana. Maybe Christine would be interested in researching this. Larry 14773 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 8:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noble Eightfold Path - Somewhat Urgent ---. Right > view especially deserves a disproportionate amount of > attention. Once one has right view, then morality just > becomes an obvious outflow, not something we need to > constantly check whether we conform to moral laws > declared by some religion. > -fk > >------------------------------------------------ Dear Frank This seems in line with the sutta below: "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121" Robert 14774 From: corvus121 Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 9:48am Subject: Thought for the day - children Hello all Finishing my last hurried post, children do respond well to cartoons and you may like to check out the little book "Dharma the Cat: Philosophy with Fur" by David Lourie and Ted Blackall. It cost me about A$11. The characters are a novice monk, a cat and a mouse. One familiar pattern is the monk expounding the Buddhist theory and trying to apply it but being sorely tested by the cat's antics. It is amusing and I recommend it. You can check out the website at www.DharmaTheCat.com There is an explanation of Buddhism and a glossary at the back of the book. Enjoy! Andrew 14775 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: Thought for the day - children Thanks for the link Andrew, a very insightful series. I think I'll buy it for my children - and me! DHARMA THE CAT SAYS: With any lesson, applying too much eagerness and not enough throroughness means you will it learn the hard way. --- "corvus121" wrote: >. > One familiar pattern is the monk expounding the Buddhist theory and > trying to apply it but being sorely tested by the cat's antics. It > is amusing and I recommend it. You can check out the website at > www.DharmaTheCat.com > 14776 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 10:28am Subject: email problems Hi All: I had some problems with my email in the past few days. If you have sent me any mails from August 1 to August 6, 2002, could you please re-send them to <>? I apologize for any inconvenience. Have a nice day, jaran Jaran Jai-nhuknan, <> BrukerDaltonics Singapore PTE 77 Science Park Drive, #01-01 CINTECH III, Singapore 118256 voice: +(65)6774-7702 ext. 815, fax: +(65)6774-7703 14777 From: <> Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Hi Nina, here is something to consider. My comments follow: Visuddhimagga XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (panna) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (panna) in the sense of act of understanding (pajanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (janana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sanjanana) and cognizing (vijanana). For though the state of knowing (janana-bhava) is equally present in perception (sanna), in consciousness (vinnana), and in understanding (panna), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. L: I take this to mean that consciousness without a lot of wisdom is capable of penetrating the three characteristics, anicca, dukkha, anatta. And, as the second stage of the path of purification is called citta-visuddhi, I therefore think during this _stage_ (if not actually while immersed in jhana) the three characteristics are penetrated. Beyond that, and to the question whether ordinary people like us can experience jhana, I must confess I have a new understanding. Previously I mistakenly thought samatha was synonymous with samadhi; it is actually synonymous with jhana. Samadhi is just focus. So whether there is tranquility or jhana is just a matter of degree. And considering that we abhidhammikas regard even the briefest moment as significant, I think it is not unlikely that all of us has experienced jhana occasionally. Finally, I think there is a good reason to practice jhana. That reason is dukkha. Jhana is a proximate cause for panna but it is also a pleasant retreat from dukkha. Even panna can sometimes get to be ~too much~. So, what do you think? Larry 14778 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 11:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Noosa weekend Dear Robert K Thank you for this helpful message. You make the point that a deep, subtle perception of self is different from wrong view. Of course, the subtle perceptions and the wrong views are all conceptual (products of thinking), by the time we worldlings can be aware of them. In both cases, the realities that have been arising and falling away will probably include quite a lot of ditthi in amongst the usual lobha and moha and, hopefully, a few kusala moments as well. As I understand what you are saying, the involuntary idea of a controlling self does not, *of itself*, indicate that there has been ditthi (rising and falling away). What it does indicate is atta-sanna. (Thanks for mentioning that -- another reality I need to study.) On the other hand, if we are thinking that realities need to be controlled, then that is different. If we think the currently arising realities (including wrong view), are ineligible as objects of satipatthana, then we can be sure there has been of a lot of ditthi. To digress a little, may I ask your opinion of the verse in the Dhammapada which says (from memory), "The Dhamma wrongly grasped is like swordgrass wrongly grasped, it cuts deeply." Does this imply a separate category of ditthi which is specifically directed at the Buddha's teaching? Or is the case that all ditthi (other than samma-ditti), amounts to a wrong grasp of the Dhamma? Kind regards Ken H P.S. Both parents are hale and hearty, thanks everyone for your metta. I have been home since the weekend but am still way behind in my dsg reading. `taking the time to appreciate every post. KH --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: KH> "We" can't get rid of wrong > view - but by seeing ditthi, view (which in the case of believing > that sati can be controlled is a very subtle and deep atta-sanna, > self perception)it is let go of. > It is like the man who has gone down to the river for 20 years and > done his ritual washings and chats and yoga; they make him feel good > and of themself are not dangerous- but it is the silabataupadana > (clinging to sila and ritual)the belief that this is purifying the > mind that is wrong. > Wrong view always comes with lobha (attachment)and hence with > pleasant or neutral feeling- it can never feel bad! Right view too > comes with only pleasant feeling or neutral feeling but it arises > only with alobha (detachment). And rightview leading out of samsara > is intimately involoved with the understanding of anatta and > powerlessness -- then there is detachment from the idea of 'me' > practising; all the khandhas, every moment, are alien, and > uncontrollable. > Robert 14779 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Thought for the day - children I just went to Amazon and ordered it. Thanks. If my child doesn't like it, I will show it to the cat. Robert ======== --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Thanks for the link Andrew, a very insightful series. I think I'll > buy it for my children - and me! > > DHARMA THE CAT SAYS: With any lesson, applying too much eagerness > and not enough throroughness means you will it learn the hard way. > > > --- > > "corvus121" wrote: > >. > > One familiar pattern is the monk expounding the Buddhist theory > and > > trying to apply it but being sorely tested by the cat's antics. > It > > is amusing and I recommend it. You can check out the website at > > www.DharmaTheCat.com > > 14780 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Dear Larry, I think what Nina says here is very helpful; especially cautioning that the subject of anapanasati is difficult and should be understood in its details. For myself, I am very interested in the details of both mindfulness work with breathing, and with the nature and purpose of the jhanas, so I am happy to go slow and listen to anyone who can lay out some of these specifics. I would like to add that aside from tranquility, my understanding is that a major attainment of jhana is concentration. In jhana the mind is one-pointed until the distinction between subject-object is extinguished and there is no sense of separate self. In the case of someone who still has seeds of self, this may be a suppression rather than a final attainment, but jhana imitates and also sets as foundation for the eradication of self-concept; at least this is how I understand it. Robert ======== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry, > Tranquillity is not the same as insight. We cannot say that through jhana > the three characteristics are understood. It is more like this: pa~n~naa > understands also jhana as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Jhana is not > common or ordinary, it is a high degree of kusala. But not everybody can > attain it. See all the conditions that are necessary, and the role of > pa~n~naa of the level of samatha that is essential. > I myself find the subject of anapana sati very difficult, and I like to go > slowly to have more understanding of it. If we go too quickly we cannot > absorp what we study. But is it not useful to understand somewhat more the > details? Maybe the subject is more intricate than we thought at first, and > this is a gain. > Best wishes > from Nina. > > op 04-08-2002 21:45 schreef <> op <>: > > > > > However, one thing I am doubtful of is the _purpose_ of jhana > > (tranquility). There are some few, slight indications here and there > > that with jhana we begin to understand the three characteristics. I > > wonder if we can view jhana as a more common, ordinary phenomenon, not > > so exclusive. The way the 7 stages of the path of purification is laid > > out, jhana comes right after sila and before purification of view. > > However, jhana doesn't really seem to be interested in insight. To me, > > the logic of it says its purpose is solely for tranquility and it > > advances from stage to stage by recognizing possibilities of greater > > tranquility through fewer qualities. But tranquility only seems like a > > valuable state because of anicca,dukkha, anatta. > 14781 From: Robert Epstein <<>> Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thus have I heard Dear Nina, Here is the opening section from the anapanasati sutta, and a link to the rest of the translated sections on this site. I have included a bit of the Mindfulness of Breathing section, so you can see where the intro ends. I have cut out the commentary that was on the site, but it seems very knowledgeable and interesting, and might be worth looking at separately. First here is the link: http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/vimalaramsi/part2.html#sutta I will be interested in your assesssment of the level of ability of those the Buddha spoke this sutta to, if the intro suggests that to you. Best, Robert Ep. =========== The Anapanasati Sutta (Introductory Section) 1] Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in the Eastern Park, in the Palace of Migara's Mother, together with many very well-known elder disciples -- the Venerable Sariputta, the Venerable Maha-Moggallana, the Venerable Maha Kassapa, the Venerable Maha Kaccana, the Venerable Maha Kotthita, the Venerable Maha Kappina, the Venerable Cunda, the Venerable Anuruddha, the Venerable Revata, the Venerable Ananda, and other very well known elder disciples. 2] Now on that occasion elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing new Bhikkhus; some elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing ten new Bhikkhus, some elder Bhikkhus had been teaching and instructing twenty. . . thirty. . . forty new Bhikkhus. And the new Bhikkhus, taught and instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, had achieved successive stages of high distinction. 3] On that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, on the full-moon night of the Pavarana ceremony,[9] The Blessed One was seated in the open surrounded by the Sangha of Bhikkhus. Then, surveying the silent Sangha of Bhikkhus, he addressed them thus: 4] "Bhikkhus, I am content with this progress. My mind is content with this progress. So arouse still more energy to attain the unattained, to achieve the unachieved, to realize the unrealized. I shall wait here at Sivatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth month." The Bhikkhus can still practice their meditation or make new robes and prepare to go out wandering or teaching the Dhamma to other monks and layperson during this extra month. The Kathina Ceremony is also held during this month. This is the time for laymen and laywomen to make extra merit by practicing their generosity by giving robes and other requisites to the Sangha members. 5] The Bhikkhus of the countryside heard: "The Blessed One will wait there at Savatthi for the Komudi full moon of the fourth month." And the Bhikkhus of the countryside left in due course for Savatthi to see the Blessed One. 6] And the elder Bhikkhus still more intensively taught and instructed new Bhikkhus; some elder Bhikkhus taught and instructed ten new Bhikkhus, some elder Bhikkhus taught and instructed twenty. . . thirty. . . forty new Bhikkhus. And the new Bhikkhus, taught and instructed by the elder Bhikkhus, achieved successive stages of high distinction. 7] On that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night of the Komudi full moon of the fourth month -- the Blessed One was seated in the open surrounded by the Sangha of Bhikkhus. Then, surveying the silent Sangha of Bhikkhus, he addressed them thus: 8] "Bhikkhus, this assembly is free from prattle, this assembly is free from chatter.[10] It consists purely of heartwood. Such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. Such an assembly as is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, an incomparable field of merit for the world -- Such is this assembly. Such an assembly that a small gift given to it becomes great and a great gift becomes greater -- such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. Such an assembly as is rare for the world to see -- such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. Such an assembly as would be worthy journeying many leagues with a travel-bag to see -- such is this Sangha of Bhikkhus, such is this assembly. 9] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus, there are Bhikkhus who are arahats with taints destroyed, who have lived the holy life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached the true goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and are completely liberated through final knowledge -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. 10] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the five lower fetters, are due to reappear spontaneously (in the pure abodes) and there attain final Nibbana, without ever returning from that world -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. 11] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the destruction of three fetters and with the attenuation of lust, hate and delusion, are once-returners, returning once to this world to make an end of suffering -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. 12] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who, with the destruction of the three fetters, are stream-enterers, no longer subject to perdition, bound [for deliverance], headed for enlightenment -- such Bhikkhus are there in this sangha of Bhikkhus. 13] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of the four foundations of mindfulness[11] -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the four right kinds of strivings (efforts). . . of the four bases for spiritual power. . . of the five faculties. . . of the five powers. . . of the seven enlightenment factors. . . of the Noble Eightfold Path -- such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus 14] "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of loving-kindness. . . of compassion. . . of appreciative joy. . . of equanimity. . . of the meditation of foulness. . . of the perception of impermanence - - such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of mindfulness of breathing. (Mindfulness of Breathing) 15] "Bhikkhus, when mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it is of great fruit and great benefit. When Mindfulness of Breathing is developed and cultivated, it fulfills the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. When the Four Foundations of Mindfulness are developed and cultivated, they fulfill the Seven Enlightenment Factors. When the Seven Enlightenment Factors are developed and cultivated, they fulfill true knowledge and deliverance. 16] And how, Bhikkhus, is mindfulness of breathing developed and cultivated, so that it is of great fruit and great benefit? 17] "Here a Bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. 18] "Breathing in long, he understands: 'I breathe in long'; or breathing out long, he understands: 'I breathe out long.' Breathing in short, he understands: 'I breathe in short'; or breathing out short he understands 'I breathe out short'. ===================== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard, > It is O.K. I am used to it that there are errors in translations. That is > why I like to check the Pali. > I thought of you when I just came across a text in the first Book of the > Abhidhamma, the Dhammasamgani (Buddhist Psychological Ethics, p. 157), Book > II, Ch I, on Rupa: a long list with many attributes of rupa, and one of > them: That means, rupa is > cognized also through the mind-door. Thus we see that this is not only in > the Commentaries. > Thank you for getting the Anapana Sati sutta on line. I do not know what ATI > is. It helps when I shall refer to it. Unfortunately the beginning of the > sutta is on this online edition missing. In my edition of the Middle Length > Saings, III, no. 118, it is mentioned where the sutta has been spoken, to > whom, on what occasion. When Ananda said, evam me suttam, thus have I heard, > he remembered all these things. By whom it was spoken, when, where, why. It > is important to know. What kind of bhikkhus were they? Could they attain > immediately, even after hearing a few words, or after hearing a more lengthy > explanation, or after having been guided again and again (those who have to > be guided, neyyo)? These are three types of people who had accumulated > sufficient wisdom to attain enlightenment in that life. Or were they people > who could not attain enlightenment in that life, although they understood > the meaning of the words and accumulated understanding (pada parama). > In the Co to the Mangala Sutta, Good Omen Discourse (Minor Readings and > Illustrator, V) there is an explanation of , thus have I > heard. You will also find here the history of the first Council. Sarah wrote > several posts on this subject, as you know. > Best wishes from Nina. > > op 05-08-2002 03:33 schreef Howard op Howard: > > So, the bottom line on this, it seems to me, is that you and Nina > > actually think the Bhikkhu was in error on this, or at least was playing a > > bit fast and loose with his terminology. This, of course, is a possibility - > > being a Bhikkhu doesn't make one infallible. ;-)) > > 14782 From: robmoult Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 2:18pm Subject: Re: Meaning in Life Hi Christine, I tried to address this question on Page 20 of my class notes, "Why Study Abhidhamma?" I would be interested in your feedback on what I wrote. Does it help? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > support the search for Meaning in life? It seems to me to have the > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > worthwhile - > > metta, > Christine 14783 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 3:38pm Subject: A. Sujin's Trip to US Dear Group, A. Sujin is coming to California for dhamma discussions. Some members of the bay area studying group are travelling with her for the entire trip, and some part of the trip. The schedule is becoming rapidly fixed (the first part, trip to Niagara falls, is completely fixed (all arrangement booked). 9/02: arrival in the evening 9/03: bay area reception 9/04: Flight to Buffalo and Bus to Niagara Falls (Canadian Side) 9/07: Back to the bay area. 9/09-9/15: Bus trip to Las Vegas, Grand Canyon, Los Angeles, Bay Area. I think by the upcoming weekend, the schedule will be completely fixed. I will repost once it is. I will also reconfirm the NF's schedule. Please let me know (off-line) if you would like any other details, and I will summarize for others as well. I personally would spend time with the group during her time in the Bay Area and in Niagara Falls only. kom 14784 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 4:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali Hi Rob K, Thanks for this article which I enjoyed reading: > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism//seintun1.htm ..... Also, I’m appreciating the assistance you are giving with Dhp, Sutta Nipata (just now to Anders and myself) and other Pali quotes in many places very much. Your notes on the SN verse was helpful and I liked the verses on births, running from birth to birth ‘like a monkey seeking fruits in the forest’....so apt. I’m also just reminded that there used to be a link to a Dhp site (maybe on your website, I forget now) http://www.abhidhamma.org/ which explained in detail the grammar of each Pali verse. When I last tried to locate it, I couldn’t find it or the link was no longer working.Do you have it? Also, while I think of it and I’m writing to you, in post 12170 some time ago, I was talking to Christine about doubt as mentioned in the Kalama suta. I’m wondering whether you could track down the Pali for these two lines and we could look again at the translations so often quoted. (Jim or Nina may need to help us with the grammar here or off-list): ***** C:> From the Kalama Sutta, the Buddha said: "it is proper for you, > Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you > about what is doubtful." ..... S:I’d be glad if Num or someone would provide the Pali for these few lines, with simple translation and confirm that it is vicikicchaa(doubt) that is referred to. If vicikiccha is the Pali here (always an unwholesome mental factor), this passage is a little surprising to me. The translations by Thanissaro, Soma and the Nyanaponika/Bodhi ones are very similar furthermore. However, being rather curious (and unable to find the Pali), I also checked in my old PTS, Rhys Davids translation. Here we read: “Yes, Kalamas, you may well doubt, you may well waver. In a doubtful matter wavering does arise...” This translation makes a lot more sense to me and has a rather different meaning, I think. It’s quite different to say “it is proper... to.doubt.” and “you may well doubt”. ***** Finally, your new website already contains some very useful materials including a DN translation ( by TW Rhys Davids) and an MN translation (by Sister? oops-forgotten), Dhp stories (some of these can be read or worked on with teenagers, Rob M, I’ve found), Nina’s writings and much more: http://www.vipassana.info/contents-vipassana.htm Rob’s first website is: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ I’m not quite sure how you decide what goes on what website and I know they are both growing still. Is vipassana.com on the bookmarks yet, I haven’t checked? See you soon in Bkk;-) With thanks, Sarah ===== 14785 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Therevada Nun in Thailand Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth Hi Rob M, > > A very interesting article. Brave and determined woman. Have you > read the article "Restoring the Order of Nuns to the Theravaadin > Tradition" by Senarat Wijayasundara. I wonder what you think of the > six recommendations? > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha184.htm ..... I don’t know if you are familiar with the game ‘fortunately, unfortunately’, but I kept thinking of it as I read the first part of the article carefully and with interest. We say ‘fortunately...such and such happened’ or ‘unfortunately.......’, but so often ‘fortunately’ turns out to be ‘unfortunately’ and vice versa. (Erik can give excellent reminders on this topic from experience and the Chinese fable if he is inclined to do so.) So we read that fortunately with Ananda’s ‘skilful diplomacy’, a bhikkuii Sangha was formed. Unfortunately it disappeared in Sri Lanka around the 10th century. “Although in the Theravaada tradition women who aspire to be nuns are prevented by historical circumstances from receiving ordination, their counterparts in the Mahaayaana tradition fortunately are not.” I’ve left out many of the ‘fortunately’ and ‘unfortunately’ details in between. A few comments on the first section as I know this is a topic of interest to you and many others (and I’m not as wise as Rob M when it comes to avoiding trouble;-)): 1.”This puts women in Theravaadin societies at a spiritual disadvantage through no fault of their own” Does it? I’m not convinced. 2. “Permission to enter the Order for nuns was won with much difficulty thanks to the skilful diplomacy of the monk Aananda who appealed to the Buddha on behalf of Mahaapajaapatii [2] and her companions.” We read that as a result, the Buddha predicted the Sasana would be significantly reduced (by half, I think). Perhaps it was ‘fortunately’ for Mahapajapati and her companions, but not for future generations ??? 3. “Opposition to the revival of an order of Buddhist nuns seems to run counter the spirit as well as the religious aims of Buddhism.” What is this ‘spirit’, I wonder? I don’t have any strong feelings either way, but I’m more interested in looking at the texts than the ‘spirit’ I think. “Two significant statements found in two authoritative suttas indicate how important the presence of nuns is in Buddhism and how much is lost in their absence. The first statement occurs in a relevant discussion between the Buddha and a wanderer, Vacchagotta.[11] In this discussion the Buddha affirms that all six components of Buddhist society named by Vacchagotta are expected to realize their ideals. These six components are: monks, nuns, celibate laymen, celibate laywomen, ordinary laymen, and ordinary laywomen.” I think the point made in the sutta is that not only the Buddha, but large numbers of people from these various ‘groups’ have become enlightened and that the ‘direct knowledge’ and ‘deliverance of mind and deliverence by wisdom’ can be attained by all to various stages of enlightenment. In other words, Vacchagotta is suggesting that ‘this holy life would be deficient’ if the Buddha were ‘accomplished in the Dhamma’ but none of his followers were. “In another text, in a discussion with Mara, the Buddha is reminded of his commitment not to pass away until the four components of a Buddhist society, namely monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen, became eligible for nibbaana by cultivating the necessary qualities.[12]” I can find (in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta here referred to), reference to the four pairs of persons, ‘the Sangha of the Lord’s disciples’, referring to those enlightened (4 stages), but at a quick skim through, I can’t find this other ref. Maybe you can help. I'd be glad to hear what you or others think about these points and references. 4.”Finally, the problem of full ordination for women was referred to Gunavannan of Kashmir by Hui Kuo, the woman who was to become the first Chinese bhikkhunii, herself an expert in Vinaya.[16] When she asked him whether it was legitimate for women to receive full ordination without the participation of nuns, Gunavarman responded by saying that there would be nothing wrong with such an ordination. When she asked whether it would be wrong for monks to grant bhikkhunii ordination to women without the participation of nuns, he replied that there would be no fault on the part of the monks if they did so. He explained that monks would be deemed at fault only if they gave bhikkhunii ordination without nuns when nuns were available to participate. Since there were no nuns in China at the time, there would be nothing wrong with such an ordination. This was a wise solution that was within the limits of Vinaya.” Was it? I think we’d need to look at and consider the Vinaya in more detail here. Certainly when Mahinda and his companions (arahants with the highest powers) went to Sri Lanka, they were not able to ordain women, ripe for full enlightenment and already sakadagamis (2nd stage of enlightenment) if I recall from the Mahavamsa, as there were no ordained nuns in the country. 5. “The two suttas discussed earlier show that the disappearance of the nuns' component disable the Theravaadin tradition.” I’m not convinced of this. I’ve also heard similar arguments for sticking rigidly to any of the rules for the Sangha which seem out-dated. These arguments go back to the earliest days and Councils. “ .. In addition, the inability of the Theravaadin tradition to meet the legitimate demands of women to practice Buddhism equally makes it vulnerable to criticism. Therefore, it is imperative for the Theravaadin tradition to meet this serious challenge and open its doors to nuns.” Certainly the Theravadin tradition is open to criticism. It always has been, even in the Buddha’s lifetime. I’m not at all sure that criticism should be any criterion for action however. We could think of a long list of rules in the Vinaya and other adjustments in the Teachings that would make it more palatable. Doesn’t this suggest we know better than the great arahats at those early Councils who preserved the Teachings just as they were recited by the Buddha? We’ve discussed issues of equality and fairness on DSG in the light of kamma, conditions and anatta. Why are some dogs more pampered than others? Why are women weaker? More importantly, what does it mean to practice Buddhism equally? Which is more precious - the chance to really hear and consider the dhamma as a laywoman or the chance to become a nun? ‘Unfortunately’, I thought, I couldn’t become a nun in Sri Lanka, all those years ago. ‘Fortunately’, as a result perhaps, I’ve had wonderful opportunities to travel and hear the dhamma in detail and to understand that the lifestyle is not important for the development of panna. ***** Chris, it probably doesn’t sound like it here, but this is not an issue that I have any particular interest in any outcome or ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. I can understand, however, how and why it becomes a very emotive issue for many people and I apologise if I’ve caused any offence as a result. I do think any schisms in the Sangha or any ‘watering-down’ of the Vinaya for modern convenience is serious and should be considered carefully if that is what is involved (we have to look at the points first). If you would like to discuss it further, let me know your comments on what I’ve said so far and then perhaps we can look at the 6 points, one by one and discuss these at a snail’s pace. I may have to rely on you to introduce the links for both sides of the discussion as I have no doubt you have these close at hand;-) I’m also reminded of a pretty silly film “Sliding Doors’ which I saw on a flight once. We follow the 2 scenarios of Gwyneth Paltrow just catching and just missing an underground train and how her life progressed as a result of that one second difference in time. Conditions are very complex...One thing I really wonder is whether those who would like to join a bhikkuni order if possible would really be able to happily follow the very strict rules laid down in the Vinaya for the bhikkuni or whether the next step would be to try and have these rules modified...Fortunately, unfortunately..... One question, I often hear the quote about the Buddha saying minor rules could be changed, but is there any suggestion in the Vinaya that changes to ordination procedures are considered minor? It seems pretty major to me, but that’s just my feeling only. I don’t know. Sarah p.s Your really fast notes and review on ‘Dying to Live’ were amazing. I was just looking at the introduction and you’d finished the book. Can we ask you to review all recommended books in this way??? Also, if you make any further lists of suttas on a theme you're studying, as you did for 'Rebirth', pls share them with us as this is very helpful. =============================== 14786 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali Sarah wrote: > > I'm also just reminded that there used to be a link to a Dhp site (maybe > on your website, I forget now) > http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > which explained in detail the grammar of each Pali verse. When I last > tried to locate it, I couldn't find it or the link was no longer > working.Do you have it? > ________________ Dear sarah, The site is rather erratic . here is a note from another list. If you can find it Ok let me know and I will copy the whole piece onto my site - and try to get permission to keep it there: ""gdirectly to > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/olcourse.htm > Then under the Pali tab, open up the "Readings in Pali > Texts" and you will find your way to the Dhammapada. > There each verse is listed and includes a very nice > parsing of the Pali (extremely helpful to beginners!) > and English translations, brief commentary and sound > files for the whole verse and for each word. > There are lots of other useful resources for Pali > students there too. > Unfortunately the site is now more inconsistent in its > response - sometimes very slow, and sometimes failing > to open, and other times opening just fine - so be > patient. It's definitely worth looking at." > Also, while I think of it and I'm writing to you, in post 12170 some > time ago, I was talking to Christine about doubt as mentioned in the > Kalama suta. I'm wondering whether you could track down the Pali for > these two lines and we could look again at the translations so often > quoted. (Jim or Nina may need to help us with the grammar here or > off-list): > ***** > C:> From the Kalama Sutta, the Buddha said: "it is proper for you, > > Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you > > about what is doubtful." > ..... > > S:I'd be glad if Num or someone would provide the Pali for these few > lines, > with simple translation and confirm that it is vicikicchaa(doubt) that is > referred to. ____________________ The pali is kankha and viccikicca - both usually akusala, and having similar meaning of doubt. ""sa.m no, bhante, amhaaka.m hoteva ka"nkhaa hoti vicikicchaa– `ko su naama imesa.m bhavata.m sama.nabraahma.naana.m sacca.m aaha, ko musaa'"ti? "Ala~nhi vo, kaalaamaa, ka"nkhitu.m ala.m vicikicchitu.m. Ka"nkhaniiyeva pana ‚ vo .thaane vicikicchaa uppannaa".--- "" I like Woodward (PTS): "When we listen to them sir, we have doubt and wavering as to which of these worthies is speaking truth and which speaks falsehood' Yes, kalamas, you may well doubt , you may well waver. In a doubtful matter wavering does arise." uppannaa, I believe,means to 'arise'. --------------------------------------------- > > > http://www.vipassana.info/contents-vipassana.htm > > Rob's first website is: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > > I'm not quite sure how you decide what goes on what website and I know > they are both growing still. Is vipassana.com on the bookmarks yet, I > haven't checked? > > See you soon in Bkk;-) > > With thanks, > > Sarah > ===== >_________ Vipassana.info is a new site I am working on. I haven't figured out how it will finally be, but it does have a few collections now. See you soon Robert 14787 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 6:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meaning in Life Thanks Howard - makes sense to me - I'm having one of those monochrome weeks when the colour has faded out of the world ....... metta, Christine --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 8/6/02 4:51:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > <> writes: > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > > support the search for Meaning in life? It seems to me to have the > > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > > worthwhile - > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > ================================ > My view is that Abhidhamma, to the extent that it correctly presents > the Buddha's vision, which I largely think is true, is primarily helpful as > an adjunct to Buddhist practice. An ongoing mindfulness practice, including > both formal meditation and informal mindfulness practice, leads to certain > insights which can be checked against descriptions in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, > which can serve as a corrective or a clarification or a corroboration. But I > see far less value in Abhidhamma if one has no corresponding ongoing > practice. > > With metta, > Howard 14788 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 6:54pm Subject: Re: Meaning in Life Hi Rob M, I read over page 20 'Why Study Abhidhamma?' and the importance of having a defined goal before starting. I don't think I chose to study Abhidhamma to begin with - it just kept popping up wherever I looked on the internet. After a while, on the Yahoo groups, the people I most respected, and could learn from, all seemed to value and study Abhidhamma. So initially I just wanted to see where these people had come from - not really a defined goal. You say: "an untrained ear hears a melody. A trained ear instantly recognizes notes, structure, chord progressions, etc. in the music. The trained ear has a different, deeper perspective when listening to music. A "trained ear" requires considerable study of music theory followed up by practice of listening to music." Perhaps, I've just lost the melody for a while, while looking at the elements. metta, Christine --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I tried to address this question on Page 20 of my class notes, "Why > Study Abhidhamma?" > > I would be interested in your feedback on what I wrote. Does it help? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > > support the search for Meaning in life? It seems to me to have > the > > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > > worthwhile - > > > > metta, > > Christine 14789 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 6:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Therevada Nun in Thailand Hi Sarah, I have no particular barrow to push on this issue other than that I have never seen it explained comprehensively in such a way as to give understanding to those, like me, genuinely wondering. I have little knowledge of this issue, and I still hope calm discussions and explanations will be forthcoming at some point. This has not happened elsewhere. At least, any discussion has never been with the same thoroughness and kindness that other topics (where opinions differ) have been explored (e.g. formal meditation, the value of the Abhidhamma itself). It would be good to see all the information for the basis of the current Theravada position laid out, and an explanation of why the six recommendations in the article are/are not sufficient to justify the restoring of the the Order of Nuns to the Theravadin Tradition. It may even save further angst - we could have a topic in the Useful Posts called 'Reasons for/against Restoring the Bhikkuni Order'. If anyone had the knowledge, and the willingness to impart it, snail's pace - one point at a time - would be perfect. metta, Christine --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > > > A very interesting article. Brave and determined woman. Have you > > read the article "Restoring the Order of Nuns to the Theravaadin > > Tradition" by Senarat Wijayasundara. I wonder what you think of the > > six recommendations? > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha184.htm > ..... > I don't know if you are familiar with the game `fortunately, > unfortunately', but I kept thinking of it as I read the first part of the > article carefully and with interest. We say `fortunately...such and such > happened' or `unfortunately.......', but so often `fortunately' turns out > to be `unfortunately' and vice versa. (Erik can give excellent reminders > on this topic from experience and the Chinese fable if he is inclined to > do so.) > > So we read that fortunately with Ananda's `skilful diplomacy', a bhikkuii > Sangha was formed. Unfortunately it disappeared in Sri Lanka around the > 10th century. "Although in the Theravaada tradition women who aspire to be > nuns are prevented by historical circumstances from receiving ordination, > their counterparts in the Mahaayaana tradition fortunately are not." I've > left out many of the `fortunately' and `unfortunately' details in between. > > A few comments on the first section as I know this is a topic of interest > to you and many others (and I'm not as wise as Rob M when it comes to > avoiding trouble;-)): > > 1."This puts women in Theravaadin societies at a spiritual disadvantage > through no fault of their own" > > Does it? I'm not convinced. > > 2. "Permission to enter the Order for nuns was won with much difficulty > thanks to the skilful diplomacy of the monk Aananda who appealed to the > Buddha on behalf of Mahaapajaapatii [2] and her companions." > > We read that as a result, the Buddha predicted the Sasana would be > significantly reduced (by half, I think). Perhaps it was `fortunately' for > Mahapajapati and her companions, but not for future generations ??? > > 3. "Opposition to the revival of an order of Buddhist nuns seems to run > counter the spirit as well as the religious aims of Buddhism." > > What is this `spirit', I wonder? I don't have any strong feelings either > way, but I'm more interested in looking at the texts than the `spirit' I > think. > > "Two significant statements found in two authoritative suttas indicate how > important the presence of nuns is in Buddhism and how much is lost in > their absence. The first statement occurs in a relevant discussion between > the Buddha and a wanderer, Vacchagotta.[11] In this discussion the Buddha > affirms that all six components of Buddhist society named by Vacchagotta > are expected to realize their ideals. These six components are: monks, > nuns, celibate laymen, celibate laywomen, ordinary laymen, and ordinary > laywomen." > > I think the point made in the sutta is that not only the Buddha, but large > numbers of people from these various `groups' have become enlightened and > that the `direct knowledge' and `deliverance of mind and deliverence by > wisdom' can be attained by all to various stages of enlightenment. In > other words, Vacchagotta is suggesting that `this holy life would be > deficient' if the Buddha were `accomplished in the Dhamma' but none of his > followers were. > > "In another text, in a discussion with Mara, the Buddha is reminded of his > commitment not to pass away until the four components of a Buddhist > society, namely monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen, became eligible for > nibbaana by cultivating the necessary qualities.[12]" > > I can find (in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta here referred to), reference to > the four pairs of persons, `the Sangha of the Lord's disciples', referring > to those enlightened (4 stages), but at a quick skim through, I can't find > this other ref. Maybe you can help. I'd be glad to hear what you or others > think about these points and references. > > 4."Finally, the problem of full ordination for women was referred to > Gunavannan of Kashmir by Hui Kuo, the woman who was to become the first > Chinese bhikkhunii, herself an expert in Vinaya.[16] When she asked him > whether it was legitimate for women to receive full ordination without the > participation of nuns, Gunavarman responded by saying that there would be > nothing wrong with such an ordination. When she asked whether it would be > wrong for monks to grant bhikkhunii ordination to women without the > participation of nuns, he replied that there would be no fault on the part > of the monks if they did so. He explained that monks would be deemed at > fault only if they gave bhikkhunii ordination without nuns when nuns were > available to participate. Since there were no nuns in China at the time, > there would be nothing wrong with such an ordination. This was a wise > solution that was within the limits of Vinaya." > > Was it? I think we'd need to look at and consider the Vinaya in more > detail here. Certainly when Mahinda and his companions (arahants with the > highest powers) went to Sri Lanka, they were not able to ordain women, > ripe for full enlightenment and already sakadagamis (2nd stage of > enlightenment) if I recall from the Mahavamsa, as there were no ordained > nuns in the country. > > 5. "The two suttas discussed earlier show that the disappearance of the > nuns' component disable the Theravaadin tradition." > > I'm not convinced of this. I've also heard similar arguments for sticking > rigidly to any of the rules for the Sangha which seem out-dated. These > arguments go back to the earliest days and Councils. > > " .. In addition, the inability of the Theravaadin tradition to meet the > legitimate demands of women to practice Buddhism equally makes it > vulnerable to criticism. Therefore, it is imperative for the Theravaadin > tradition to meet this serious challenge and open its doors to nuns." > > Certainly the Theravadin tradition is open to criticism. It always has > been, even in the Buddha's lifetime. I'm not at all sure that criticism > should be any criterion for action however. We could think of a long list > of rules in the Vinaya and other adjustments in the Teachings that would > make it more palatable. Doesn't this suggest we know better than the great > arahats at those early Councils who preserved the Teachings just as they > were recited by the Buddha? > > We've discussed issues of equality and fairness on DSG in the light of > kamma, conditions and anatta. Why are some dogs more pampered than others? > Why are women weaker? More importantly, what does it mean to practice > Buddhism equally? Which is more precious - the chance to really hear and > consider the dhamma as a laywoman or the chance to become a nun? > `Unfortunately', I thought, I couldn't become a nun in Sri Lanka, all > those years ago. `Fortunately', as a result perhaps, I've had wonderful > opportunities to travel and hear the dhamma in detail and to understand > that the lifestyle is not important for the development of panna. > ***** > Chris, it probably doesn't sound like it here, but this is not an issue > that I have any particular interest in any outcome or `right' or `wrong'. > I can understand, however, how and why it becomes a very emotive issue for > many people and I apologise if I've caused any offence as a result. I do > think any schisms in the Sangha or any `watering-down' of the Vinaya for > modern convenience is serious and should be considered carefully if that > is what is involved (we have to look at the points first). > > If you would like to discuss it further, let me know your comments on what > I've said so far and then perhaps we can look at the 6 points, one by one > and discuss these at a snail's pace. I may have to rely on you to > introduce the links for both sides of the discussion as I have no doubt > you have these close at hand;-) > > I'm also reminded of a pretty silly film "Sliding Doors' which I saw on a > flight once. We follow the 2 scenarios of Gwyneth Paltrow just catching > and just missing an underground train and how her life progressed as a > result of that one second difference in time. Conditions are very > complex...One thing I really wonder is whether those who would like to > join a bhikkuni order if possible would really be able to happily follow > the very strict rules laid down in the Vinaya for the bhikkuni or whether > the next step would be to try and have these rules modified...Fortunately, > unfortunately..... > > One question, I often hear the quote about the Buddha saying minor rules > could be changed, but is there any suggestion in the Vinaya that changes > to ordination procedures are considered minor? It seems pretty major to > me, but that's just my feeling only. I don't know. > > Sarah > > p.s Your really fast notes and review on `Dying to Live' were amazing. I > was just looking at the introduction and you'd finished the book. Can we > ask you to review all recommended books in this way??? Also, if you make > any further lists of suttas on a theme you're studying, as you did for > 'Rebirth', pls share them with us as this is very helpful. > =============================== 14790 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 7:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali Dear Sarah, I thought I would add some more about the Kesamuttisutta (poplur name Kalama sutta). As you noted Bodhi and Soma both have ""it is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt"" they use proper for the Pali word 'ala.m' and this is its meaning, as is 'indeed' 'truly ', (or woodwards you may 'well'...) I think if we understand that the Buddha was saying it is quite natural, lawful, 'the way things should be' -- that doubt arises when there are the conditions for doubt. I think Bodhi and Soma aren't suggesting that Doubt is 'good' - rather that it is very proper and right that it should arise in such circumstances. Robert "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > > > Sarah wrote: > > > I'm also just reminded that there used to be a link to a Dhp > site (maybe > > on your website, I forget now) > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > > which explained in detail the grammar of each Pali verse. When I > last > > tried to locate it, I couldn't find it or the link was no longer > > working.Do you have it? > > ________________ > > Dear sarah, > The site is rather erratic . here is a note from another list. If > you can find it Ok let me know and I will copy the whole piece onto > my site - and try to get permission to keep it there: ""gdirectly > to > > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/olcourse.htm > > Then under the Pali tab, open up the "Readings in Pali > > Texts" and you will find your way to the Dhammapada. > > There each verse is listed and includes a very nice > > parsing of the Pali (extremely helpful to beginners!) > > and English translations, brief commentary and sound > > files for the whole verse and for each word. > > There are lots of other useful resources for Pali > > students there too. > > Unfortunately the site is now more inconsistent in its > > response - sometimes very slow, and sometimes failing > > to open, and other times opening just fine - so be > > patient. It's definitely worth looking at." > > > > Also, while I think of it and I'm writing to you, in post 12170 > some > > time ago, I was talking to Christine about doubt as mentioned in > the > > Kalama suta. I'm wondering whether you could track down the Pali > for > > these two lines and we could look again at the translations so > often > > quoted. (Jim or Nina may need to help us with the grammar here or > > off-list): > > ***** > > C:> From the Kalama Sutta, the Buddha said: "it is proper for you, > > > Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in > you > > > about what is doubtful." > > ..... > > > > S:I'd be glad if Num or someone would provide the Pali for these > few > > lines, > > with simple translation and confirm that it is vicikicchaa (doubt) > that is > > referred to. > ____________________ > > The pali is kankha and viccikicca - both usually > akusala, and having similar meaning of doubt. > > ""sa.m no, > bhante, amhaaka.m hoteva ka"nkhaa hoti vicikicchaa– `ko > su naama imesa.m bhavata.m sama.nabraahma.naana.m sacca.m > aaha, ko > musaa'"ti? "Ala~nhi vo, kaalaamaa, ka"nkhitu.m ala.m vicikicchitu.m. > Ka"nkhaniiyeva pana ‚ vo .thaane vicikicchaa uppannaa".--- "" > > I like Woodward (PTS): "When we listen to them sir, we have doubt and > wavering as to which of these worthies is speaking truth and which > speaks falsehood' > Yes, kalamas, you may well doubt , you may well waver. In a doubtful > matter wavering does arise." > uppannaa, I believe,means to 'arise'. > --------------------------------------------- > > > > > http://www.vipassana.info/contents-vipassana.htm > > > > Rob's first website is: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > > > > I'm not quite sure how you decide what goes on what website and I > know > > they are both growing still. Is vipassana.com on the bookmarks > yet, I > > haven't checked? > > > > See you soon in Bkk;-) > > > > With thanks, > > > > Sarah > > ===== > >_________ > Vipassana.info is a new site I am working on. I haven't figured out > how it will finally be, but it does have a few collections now. > See you soon > Robert 14791 From: Howard Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meaning in Life Hi, Chris - In a message dated 8/7/02 6:53:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Christine writes: > Thanks Howard - makes sense to me - I'm having one of those > monochrome weeks when the colour has faded out of the world ....... > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry. That happens to most of us from time to time. Sometimes anicca is a good and dependable friend! ;-) -------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Christine > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 14792 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Re: Meaning in Life --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > support the search for Meaning in life? ------------------------------- Dear Christine, Sometimes I think we are looking for something to get hold of but perhaps we should be grateful for what we have let go of... "Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth." -- Ludwig Borne 1786–1837, German journalist, of Jewish origin I sometimes find Abhidhamma not what I need; at those times I like to turn to the Jatakas in particular ( I think you have the excellent translation by Cowell?) as they also apply so much to daily life. Robert It seems to me to have the > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > worthwhile - > > metta, > Christine 14793 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 11:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] A. Sujin's Trip to US Here's the confirmation: Sept. 2dn arriving SFO. check in hotel Sept. 3rd tour San Francisco Sept. 4th leaving for Buffalo NY. arrive same day check in hotel (Niagara falls) Canada Sept. 5th tour Toronto and Niagara Falls Canada Sept. 6th stay at Niagara Falls ( dhamma discussion) Sept. 7th leaving for SF. dhamma wat Thai temple Fremont Sept. 8th dhamma SF. Sept. 9th,10th.&11th SF-LA. Disney Land, Universal Studio Sept. 11th,12th LA- LAS VEGAS Sept. 13th Grand Canyon ( one day trip) Sept. 14th Las Vegas to SF. ( overnight SF.) Sept. 15th leaving for Thailand Please forward to everybady that are coming. > -----Original Message----- > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:<>] > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:38 AM > To: Dhammastudygroup > Cc: Jack Tiphayachan; Jarurin (O) Pua; Ell Walsh > Subject: [dsg] A. Sujin's Trip to US > > > Dear Group, > > A. Sujin is coming to California for dhamma > discussions. Some members of > the bay area studying group are travelling with > her for the entire trip, and > some part of the trip. The schedule is becoming > rapidly fixed (the first > part, trip to Niagara falls, is completely fixed > (all arrangement booked). > > 9/02: arrival in the evening > 9/03: bay area reception > 9/04: Flight to Buffalo and Bus to Niagara Falls > (Canadian Side) > 9/07: Back to the bay area. > > 9/09-9/15: Bus trip to Las Vegas, Grand Canyon, > Los Angeles, Bay Area. > 14794 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 0:21am Subject: help - lots of mail Dear Friends, As I travel some when I return home I feel overwhelmed by the amount of email from the group. I feel compelled to read the posts and stay aware of the discussions. I am learning so much from all of your posts. My question is does anyone have any tips on how to keep up? Any thoughts? With metta, Shakti 14795 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] A. Sujin's Trip to US Dear Group, How wonderful to hear that A. Sujin will be coming to the USA. Unfortunately for me I will be in Thailand and Nepal at that time and won't be able to meet her here. I do hope to meet her and some of you in Bangkok when I am there after October 1st. As I have not booked my return flight from Nepal to Bangkok yet I was wondering if there are particular days or nights when discussion groups happen? With metta, Shakti Kom Tukovinit wrote:Dear Group, A. Sujin is coming to California for dhamma discussions. Some members of the bay area studying group are travelling with her for the entire trip, and some part of the trip. The schedule is becoming rapidly fixed (the first part, trip to Niagara falls, is completely fixed (all arrangement booked). 9/02: arrival in the evening 9/03: bay area reception 9/04: Flight to Buffalo and Bus to Niagara Falls (Canadian Side) 9/07: Back to the bay area. 9/09-9/15: Bus trip to Las Vegas, Grand Canyon, Los Angeles, Bay Area. I think by the upcoming weekend, the schedule will be completely fixed. I will repost once it is. I will also reconfirm the NF's schedule. Please let me know (off-line) if you would like any other details, and I will summarize for others as well. I personally would spend time with the group during her time in the Bay Area and in Niagara Falls only. kom 14796 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] help - lots of mail Deanna, you can set up your yahoo email account filter (search for "dsg") and put it into a separate folder for starters so it doesn't get mixed up with other email. The desire to maintain orderliness and read every single message in dsg is a nonobvious type of dukkha. Dukkha should be understood. When dukkha is seen, it's easier to let it go. I realized a while back that there is no law that demands that once I start reading a book or email that I have to finish it. Quite liberating insight and frees up loads of time. -fk 14797 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] A. Sujin's Trip to US -- Dear Deanna , The usual days for English discussions are saturdays but keep in contact with me off-list as I will be in Thailand from the end of september and I can help arrange for a meeting with Sujin on a day that suits you; she understands the scheduling restraints of overseas visitors and tries to meet anyone who wants to discuss. Robert (and remember the Tibet photos) - Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: > > Dear Group, > How wonderful to hear that A. Sujin will be coming to the USA. Unfortunately for me I will be in Thailand and Nepal at that time and won't be able to meet her here. > I do hope to meet her and some of you in Bangkok when I am there after October 1st. As I have not booked my return flight from Nepal to Bangkok yet I was wondering if there are particular days or nights when discussion groups happen? > With metta, Shakti > have been removed] 14798 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meaning in Life Chris, I like what Howard said (quoted below for rereading). From reading your original message, it sounds like you're feeling frustration at not being able to grasp a coherent "meaning of life" from abidhamma, in the same way that a Christian would find comfort in "knowing" that the meaning of life is that God loves us and has grand (but mysterious) plans for our future. A few thoughts to temper this kind of view: 1) the middle path avoids the extreme of nihilism or eternalism. The dhamma dispels the illusion that we have an eternal soul, but also dispels the illusion that life is meaningless. Life has meaning, but just not as clean and perfect as we might wish 2) the desire to know "the meaning of life" can lead to speculative views and much dukkha. Better to direct attention at smaller and addressable dilemmas, knowing that eventually the bigger dilemmas will become more clear once we solve the smaller ones. -fk > > My view is that Abhidhamma, to the extent > that it correctly > presents > > the Buddha's vision, which I largely think is > true, is primarily > helpful as > > an adjunct to Buddhist practice. An ongoing > mindfulness practice, > including > > both formal meditation and informal mindfulness > practice, leads to > certain > > insights which can be checked against descriptions > in the > Abhidhamma Pitaka, > > which can serve as a corrective or a clarification > or a > corroboration. But I > > see far less value in Abhidhamma if one has no > corresponding > ongoing > > practice. 14799 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Noble Eightfold Path for the class Dear Rob M, I try to give some ideas for your class. You will come to the precepts. I like what Frank formulated, paying attention first of all the right view: < Once one has right view, then morality just becomes an obvious outflow, not something we need to constantly check whether we conform to moral laws declared by some religion. I see the moral division of the 8fp as a necessary part just as a sanity check so that novices with undeveloped right view do not practice distorted morals, but if too much attention is focused on the moral division instead of developing and expanding understanding of right view, then there is a danger of the buddhist just following commandments (trying to obey the letter of the law) without understanding the principle behind it.> It is difficult to treat each factor separately, because without right view none of the other factors is a Path factor. At the same time I understand how difficult it is to help people of your class who may not be able to take in too much at the same time. The precepts are not a set of rules, the Buddha did not lay down rules, for laypeople. He gave advices and showed cause and effect in life. He explained that the source of our deeds are the different cittas. The formulation of the training precepts is helpful: I undertake the training precept of abstinence. It ought to be trained (sikkhitabba) thus it is training (sikkha). This may help people not to become scrupulous or have fear when they cannot keep a precept. What can we expect? We have accumulated much more akusala than we ever thought. But effort for kusala should be applied. Here we come to the point you raised about anatta. Can there be right effort, striving? Yes, it is the function of the cetasika viriya, which is conditioned, non-self. There should not be a dilemma so long as we understand this. At the moment I am translating A. Sujin's chapter on the perfection of energy. She writes: We are bound to take every reality for self, energy included. Doubts will only disappear when stages of insight knowledge are reached, and it is understood that there are only nama and rupa, no person. Wrong view and doubt are, as you know, eradicated when the first stage of enlightenment is attained. Before giving a few thoughts for your class, I could say something on the three abstinences as factors of the eightfold Path. op 06-08-2002 17:27 schreef robmoult op <>: > First are the three abstinences; abstinence from wrong speech (vaci- > duccarita virati), abstinence from wrong action (kaya-duccarita > virati) and abstinence from wrong livelihood (ajiva-duccarita > virati). > > My first question is why where only these three picked out from the > eightfold noble path? ... I understand that right speech, right action, > and right livelihood collectively make up the first of the three > divisions of the path, the division of moral discipline > (silakkhandha). What I do not understand is how this qualifies them > for their own cetasikas. This particularly true since speech, action > and livelihood are only indirectly linked to mental states > (especially livelihood). It would seem to me that the other five > factors are much more closely linked to mental states and therefore > are "more deserving" of having their own cetasikas. N: The above three can arise only one at a time, and when they are Path factors (thus, accompanied by right view) of the Path that is still lokiya, mundane, they also arise one at a time, that is, when there is an opportunity for them. One can only abstain from one kind of akusala at a time since each citta experiences only one object at a time. There is not all the time opportunity for abstention, thus, in that case the Path is fivefold. It is usually a fivefold Path when still mundane. When the Path is lokuttara, supramundane, all three abstinences arise at the same time and perform their function as Path factor and they are eradicating the conditions for akusala, in accordance of the stage of enlightenment which is attained. Thus you see that these three abstinences as Path factors have a special position. I noticed the translation of sammasankappa, right thought, as right intention, but this could give rise to confusion. Cetana is usually translated as intention, but there is no cetana as factor of the eightfold Path. Samma sankappa is together with samma ditthi the wisdom of the eightfold Path. Right thought has the function of the nama or rupa that appears, so that right view can understand its characteristic. When we read right thinking, including the threefold, right or samma can refer to kusala, not always to the eightfold Path. But when these three ways (non-covetousness, etc) are accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path they are not taken for self and are included in the Path. I think it is difficult to analyze Path factors one by one, since as Path factors they have to be developed together, that is to say, the five Path factors. Each of them has its own function in assisting pa~n~naa to understand the nama or rupa which appears as it really is. I notice (below) that right concentration is described as the four jhanas. Well, we had discussions about this, it is more detailed than this. When the jhanas, after emerging, are seen as non self they are included in right concentration of the eightfold Path. Mundane jhana without understanding of the eightfold Path is right concentration, it is kusala, but not right concentration of the eightfold Path. For the class all this is too detailed. The role of metta in abstaining from akusala may be helpful to them. How do they like to be treated by others? If they remember this they may abstain from harsh speech. Abstaining from killing is also a kind of giving: you give life to that insect you do not kill. It may be helpful to explain that for killing to be a completed course of akusala kamma that will bring akusala vipaka, four factors are needed: a living being, consciousness of there being a living being., the intention to kill, death as a consequence. This may help some who have scruples or doubts: did I kill, was the insect alive? We need also patience, it will help us not to speak angry words. An example: we had a Dhamma session in Sri Lanka with A. Sujin and the late Ven. Dhammadharo and other monks. There was only one microphone for the monks, and Ven. Dhammadharo found it so helpful that he had to wait for the microphone before he could speak, otherwise he would have spoken with akusala citta. Words have come out before we realize it, is that not true? There is a lot to say about idle talk, we all indulge in it so long as we are not arahats. You reminded us the other day (thank you) that life is so short, and idle talk does not help to reach the goal. We are attached to conversation and like to keep it going, or we like to be popular, and this may inspire all sorts of useless talk. We may easily speak with conceit, finding what we say worth while, clinging to the importance of self again, like hoisting a flag. Middle Length Sayings, no. 15, Anumanasutta explains many kinds of wrong speech. The monks have to recite it three times daily and if that is impossible than once daily. When seeing all such kinds of akusala in oneself, one does not dare critizice someone else. This may also be the occasion to explain on good speech, as a remedy to bad speech. Speech with thankfulness, with appreciation of other people's kusala (anumodana), these are also ways of dana. Paying repect in words and deeds. Helping others and politeness which comes from the heart, these are actually ways of sila. Best wishes from Nina. Rob: What I am looking for from the DSG are specific suggestions on how > to apply factors in daily life. As a quick summary, here is a > factorial analysis of the Noble Eightfold Path: > - Right view (Understanding suffering, Understanding its origin, > Understanding its cessation, Understanding the way leading to its > cessation) > - Right intention (Intention of renunciation, Intention of good > will, Intention of harmlessness) > - Right speech (Abstaining from false speech, Abstaining from > slanderous speech, Abstaining from harsh speech, Abstaining from > idle chatter) > - Right action (Abstaining from taking life, Abstaining from > stealing, Abstaining from sexual misconduct) > - Right livelihood (Giving up wrong livelihood, One earns one's > living by a right form of livelihood) > - Right effort (The effort to restrain defilements, The effort to > abandon defilements, The effort to develop wholesome states, The > effort to maintain wholesome states) > - Right mindfulness (Mindful contemplation of the body, Mindful > contemplation of feelings, Mindful contemplation of the mind, > Mindful contemplation of phenomena) > - Right concentration (The first / second / third / fourth jhana)