14800 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] help - lots of mail Hi Deanna (and Azita), I solved the problem of the procession of non-stop emails from choking up my inbox by going to: http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Click on "Edit my Groups" - change any lists (especially those with heavy email traffic) to "no mail" by selecting under "message delivery", click on "save changes" and then read at the website at your leisure by returning anytime to the link above and clicking on the Group Name in the left hand column. Like Frank, I don't always read all posts or all threads immediately. Azita - I just remembered we were also discussing this subject at Noosa.:) metta, Christine --- frank kuan wrote: > Deanna, you can set up your yahoo email account filter > (search for "dsg") and put it into a separate folder > for starters so it doesn't get mixed up with other > email. > > The desire to maintain orderliness and read every > single message in dsg is a nonobvious type of dukkha. > Dukkha should be understood. When dukkha is seen, it's > easier to let it go. > > I realized a while back that there is no law that > demands that once I start reading a book or email that > I have to finish it. Quite liberating insight and > frees up loads of time. > > -fk > 14801 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 4:04am Subject: Re: Meaning in Life Dear Robert, Looking from that different perspective is a help. I like the quote very much, and the idea about the Jatakas. metta, Chris --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > > support the search for Meaning in life? > ------------------------------- > > Dear Christine, > Sometimes I think we are looking for something to get hold of but > perhaps we should be grateful for what we have let go of... > "Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth." > -- Ludwig Borne 1786–1837, German journalist, of Jewish origin > > I sometimes find Abhidhamma not what I need; at those times I like > to turn to the Jatakas in particular ( I think you have the > excellent translation by Cowell?) as they also apply so much to > daily life. > Robert > > > > > It seems to me to have the > > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > > worthwhile - > > > > metta, > > Christine 14802 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 4:20am Subject: Re: Meaning in Life Hi Frank, You are right about the frustration - as Howard is also right about anicca being (sometimes) a good and dependable friend. Regarding dukkha - I had slipped back into thinking of it only in its grosser forms (death, heartbreak, disasters) and perhaps it causes more problems in its subtle forms dissatisfaction, uneasiness, boredom, frustration etc. Hope you're correct about the big dilemmas becoming clearer after we solve the smaller ones... :) metta, Chris --- frank kuan wrote: > Chris, From reading your original message, it > sounds like you're feeling frustration at not being > able to grasp a coherent "meaning of life" from > abidhamma, > 2) the desire to know "the meaning of life" can lead > to speculative views and much dukkha. Better to direct > attention at smaller and addressable dilemmas, knowing > that eventually the bigger dilemmas will become more > clear once we solve the smaller ones. > > -fk 14803 From: <> Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 6:59am Subject: ADL ch. 19 (3) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 19 (3) In the Abhidhamma we learn that there are eight types of maha-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness. Why isn't there only one type? The reason is that each type has its own conditions through which it arises. If we know about these different types and if we can be aware of them when their characteristics present themselves, it will help us not to take them for self. Four types of maha-kusala cittas arise with somanassa (pleasant feeling) and four types arise with upekkha (indifferent feeling). We would like to have kusala cittas with somanassa, because we cling to somanassa. However, one cannot force somanassa to arise. Sometimes we perform dana with somanassa, sometimes with upekkha. It depends on conditions whether somanassa or whether upekkha arises with the maha-kusala citta. Four types are accompanied by wisdom: four types are not accompanied by wisdom. We may, for example, help others without panna or with panna. When we realize that helping is kusala, or when we are aware of the nama or rupa appearing at that moment, there is panna arising with the maha-kusala citta. Four types are asankharika (unprompted, spontaneous, not induced by someone else or by one's own consideration) and four types are sasankharika (prompted, by someone else or by self-inducement) The eight types of maha-kusala cittas are the following: . 1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, unprompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttum, asankharikam ekam) 2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, prompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, unprompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, prompted (Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, unprompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, prompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam) 7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, unprompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam) 8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, prompted (Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, sasankhaikam ekam) Maha-kusala cittas are not the only kind of kamavacara sobhana cittas (beautiful cittas which are of the sensuous plane of consciousness). Maha-kusala cittas are cittas which are cause; they can motivate kusala kamma through body, speech or mind which is capable of bringing results. There are also maha-vipakacittas, which are results of kusala kamma performed with maha-kusala cittas. Maha-vipakacittas are sobhana (beautiful) cittas as well, arising with sobhana cetasikas. People's deeds are not the same and thus the results cannot be the same. People are born with different patisandhi-cittas (rebirth-consciousness). Patisandhi-cittas are vipakacittas; they are the result of kamma. As we have seen before (Ch, 11), human beings can be born with a patisandhi-citta which is ahetuka kusala vipaka (and in this case they are handicapped from the first moment of life), or with a patisandhi-citta which is sahetuka kusala vipaka, accompanied by sobhana hetus. In the case of human beings, and of beings born in other sensuous planes of existence, the patisandhi-citta which is sahetuka vipakacitta is maha-vipakacitta, the result of kamavacara kusala kamma (kamma performed by kusala cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness). Apart from maha-vipakacitta there are other types of sahetuka vipakacitta which are not the result of kamavacara kusala kamma but of jhanacitta. These types will be dealt with later on. As regards maha-vipakacittas, there are eight types. They can be accompanied by somanassa or by upekkha, they can be with panna or without panna, they can be asankharika (unprompted) or sasankharika (prompted). They are classified in the same way as the eight types of maha-kusala cittas mentioned above. The bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) and the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness) are the same type of citta as the first citta in one's life, the patisandhi-citta. If the patisandhi-citta is maha-vipakacitta, the bhavanga-citta and the cuti-citta of that life are the same type of maha-vipakacitta. Thus the functions of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti can be performed by maha-vipakacitta. Moreover, the function of tadarammana (registering) can also be performed by maha-vipakacitta. When we see a beautiful sight or experience pleasant objects through the other sense-doors, the citta is vipakacitta, the result of kusala kamma; however, that kind of vipakacitta is ahetuka vipaka (arising without hetu), not maha-vipaka. The functions of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and receiving impressions through the body-sense, of sampaticchana and of santirana cannot be performed by maha-vipakacittas; these functions are performed by ahetuka vipakacittas. Tadarammana-citta (registering-consciousness), however, which is a vipakacitta arising after the javana-cittas, can either be ahetuka vipakacitta or maha-vipakacitta. 14804 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 8:28am Subject: Re: Meaning in Life --- Dear Christine, Here is another quote I like - "We're all in the same boat, and half the time we're up shit creek without a paddle" (unknown) Robert "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Looking from that different perspective is a help. I like the quote > very much, > metta, > Chris > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > < > > "Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding a truth." > > -- Ludwig Borne 1786–1837, German journalist, of Jewish origin > > 14805 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 8:28am Subject: Re: Meaning in Life Christine, There is no obligation to discover the meaning of life. There is no need to `do worthwhile things.' There is only the present moment in which nama and rupa rise and fall away. Kind regards Ken H --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > support the search for Meaning in life? It seems to me to have the > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > worthwhile - > > metta, > Christine 14806 From: Sukin Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] help - lots of mail :-)Good one Frank!:-) Sukin > The desire to maintain orderliness and read every > single message in dsg is a nonobvious type of dukkha. > Dukkha should be understood. When dukkha is seen, it's > easier to let it go. > > I realized a while back that there is no law that > demands that once I start reading a book or email that > I have to finish it. Quite liberating insight and > frees up loads of time. > > -fk 14807 From: <> Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 0:49pm Subject: the meaning of life Dear group, the meaning of life is explained below, and a short comment follows: Visuddhimagga XIV, 21 In the second tetrad [concerned with the question "How many kinds of understanding are there?"], the four kinds of knowledge classed as that concerned with meaning, etc., are called the 'four discriminations'. For this is said: 'Knowledge about meaning is the discrimination of meaning. Knowledge about law is the discrimination of law. Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law is the discrimination of language. Knowledge about kinds of knowledge is discrimination of perspicuity' (Vbh. 293). Herein, *meaning* (attha) is briefly a term for the fruit of a cause (hetu). For in accordance with the cause it is served, arrived at, reached, therefore it is called 'meaning' (or 'purpose'). But in particular the five things, namely, (i) anything conditionally produced, (ii) nibbana, (iii) the meaning of what is spoken, (iv) (kamma-) result, and (v) functional consciousness, should be understood as *meaning*. When anyone reviews that meaning, any knowledge of his, falling withn the category concerned with meaning is *discrimination of meaning*. *Law* (dhamma) is briefly a term for a condition (paccaya). For since a condition necessitates (dahati) whatever it may be, makes it occur or allows it to happen, it is therefore called 'law (dhamma)'. But in particular the five things, namely, (i) any cause that produces fruit, (ii) the Noble Path, (iii) what is spoken, (iv) what is profitable, and (v) what is unprofitable, should be understood as *law*. When anyone reviews that law, any knowledge of his, falling within the category concerned with law, is the *discrimination of law*. L: So, generally speaking, all conditional results and fruitions are the meaning of life. As such, life's meaning unfolds moment by moment. good night all, Larry 14808 From: jkl_california Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thus have I heard Hi Nina, Thanks so much for your writings. Your translations of Ajahn Sujin's "Perfections" are especially helpful. > II, Ch I, on Rupa: a long list with many attributes of rupa, and one of > them: That means, rupa is > cognized also through the mind-door. Thus we see that this is not only in > the Commentaries. Rupa cognizable through the mind door - might this apply to all sense phenomena we would experience in a dream, imaginatory, or hallucinatory state? With Metta, Jim 14809 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 1:40pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend --Dear Ken, Thanks for your note. This is a hard subject and I know Nina or Kom could explain more thoroughly. In the paticcasamuppada wrong view is classifeied into there types: Ditthupadanam, wrong view clinging silabatupadanam , clinging to sila and rituals, wrong practice Attavadupadanam , clinging to personality belief, self view. All of these are eliminated by sotapattimagga Under the vipallasa (perversions)atta vipallasa (perverted view of self) is classified in three grades- ditthi , then citta, then sanna. Again all these are eradicated by sotapattimagga. I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and considered deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not arise often ( this is a coarse belief) but other levels do; depending on the degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. And as soon as we start thinking "I understand not-self" there is conceit - different from ditthi, but one of the papanca (prolongers of samsara)- jumping in, boots and all. On the Dhammapada quote: -Once, there was a bhikkhu who was feeling remorse for having unwittingly cut some grass. He confided about this to another bhikkhu. The latter was reckless and stubborn by nature, and he did not think much about committing small misdeeds. So he replied to the first bhikkhu, "Cutting grass is a very minor offence; if you just confide and confess to another bhikkhu you are automatically exonerated. There is nothing to worry about." So saying, he proceeded to uproot some grass with both hands to show that he thought very little of such trivial offences. When the Buddha was told about this he reprimanded the reckless, stubborn bhikkhu. Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 311. Just as kusa grass if badly held cuts that very hand, so also, the ill-led life of a bhikkhu drags that bhikkhu down to niraya. Verse 312. An act perfunctorily performed, or a practice that is depraved, or a questionable conduct of a bhikkhu is not of much benefit. BTW one of the meanings of kusala is derived from kusa: "Kusa grass cuts a part of the hand with both edges. Even so kusala cuts off both sections of passions - those that have arisen and those that have not arisen" (abhidhammathasangaha) Robert "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Robert K > > Thank you for this helpful message. You make > the point that a deep, subtle perception of > self is different from wrong view. Of course, > the subtle perceptions and the wrong views are > all conceptual (products of thinking), by the > time we worldlings can be aware of them. In > both cases, the realities that have been > arising and falling away will probably include > quite a lot of ditthi in amongst the usual > lobha and moha and, hopefully, a few kusala > moments as well. > > As I understand what you are saying, the > involuntary idea of a controlling self does > not, *of itself*, indicate that there has been > ditthi (rising and falling away). What it > does indicate is atta-sanna. (Thanks for > mentioning that -- another reality I need to > study.) > > On the other hand, if we are thinking that > realities need to be controlled, then that is > different. If we think the currently arising > realities (including wrong view), are > ineligible as objects of satipatthana, then we > can be sure there has been of a lot of ditthi. > > To digress a little, may I ask your opinion of > the verse in the Dhammapada which says (from > memory), "The Dhamma wrongly grasped is like > swordgrass wrongly grasped, it cuts deeply." > > Does this imply a separate category of ditthi > which is specifically directed at the Buddha's > teaching? Or is the case that all ditthi > (other than samma-ditti), amounts to a wrong > grasp of the Dhamma? > > Kind regards > Ken H > P.S. Both parents are hale and hearty, thanks > everyone for your metta. I have been home > since the weekend but am still way behind in > my dsg reading. `taking the time to > appreciate every post. > KH > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > KH> "We" can't get rid of wrong > > view - but by seeing ditthi, view (which in the case of believing > > that sati can be controlled is a very subtle and deep atta- sanna, > > self perception)it is let go of. > > It is like the man who has gone down to the river for 20 years and > > done his ritual washings and chats and yoga; they make him feel > good > > and of themself are not dangerous- but it is the silabataupadana > > (clinging to sila and ritual)the belief that this is purifying the > > mind that is wrong. > > Wrong view always comes with lobha (attachment)and hence with > > pleasant or neutral feeling- it can never feel bad! Right view too > > comes with only pleasant feeling or neutral feeling but it arises > > only with alobha (detachment). And rightview leading out of > samsara > > is intimately involoved with the understanding of anatta and > > powerlessness -- then there is detachment from the idea of 'me' > > practising; all the khandhas, every moment, are alien, and > > uncontrollable. > > Robert 14810 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 3:31pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend Dear Ken, There is also the Alagaddupama Sutta in the Majjhima nikaya (22)where it explains that learning the Dhamma wrongly is like catching a snake by the tail. One can study with the wrong motivations and actually increase mana and ditthi and tanha - and this applies to all of us. Again and again we should examine to see whether we are unknowingly trying to gain something for 'me'. This is a good sutta to discuss. Robert "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --Dear Ken, > 14811 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: forwarding to list Hi Andrew (& Anders,) > What an interesting point to explore. I think it is very relevant to > my previous posting on "animals" - am I trying to make the scriptures > verify my understanding of animals? You were referring to the extract from Anders’ post (see below) on 'verification of the scriptures'. We read in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta: ***** “..Then, without approving or disapproving, his words and expressions should be carefully noted and compared with the Suttas and reviewed in the light of the discipline. If they, on such comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: “Assuredly this is not the word of the Buddha, it has been wrongly understood by this monk”, and the matter is to be rejected. But where on such comparison and review they are found to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: “Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this monk.” (p.255,M.Walshe transl.) ***** In other words, the understanding has to conform to the scriptures rather than vice versa. ..... >One question I have is this: if > I was right in citing a reference to the Buddha saying that there > were many truths (like leaves in the forest) he was not expounding, > does it follow that the scriptures are incomplete? If so, how does > this impact, if at all, on how we should see the scriptures? ..... I don’t think it follows that the scriptures are incomplete.Every detail of prctical relevance has been taught. There is far more detail than even the great arahats could directly realize and the point is that the Buddha’s knowledge is incomprehensible and without limit. I would suggest, on the contrary, that when we quote ‘the leaves in the forest’ with regard to topics we’d like to see included in the scriptures, it may be mere wishful thinking;-) For my part, I know the Pali Canon contains far, far more knowledge than I could ever get even a very small taste of. That’s why I mentioned to Anders that it is certainly not any false humility when I say I’m not at all ‘well-versed’ in this field. Ken H wrote in a pre-Noosa meeting post: “The Buddha taught that we worldlings are, “without regard for the ariyans, without regard for the ways of the ariyans.” (Mulapariyaya-Sutta). It would be better to understand this than to deny it. We ‘have regard’ for the ariyans when we follow them, not when we imitate them.” In other words, as he put so well in his post (14238), “imitation is not the way to go”. Again I’m reminded of sacca parami (truth perfection) and the importance of really checking our so called insights and wisdom carefully against the scriptures rather than the other way round. In this regard, I liked a recent quote of Nina’s from the Perfections 3,no5: “The commentary to the Basket of Conduct compares association with fools to the tasting of water that has a bitter, unpleasant flavour, and association with wise persons to the tasting of sweet water”. ***** It was very ‘sweet water’ in Noosa and I’ve heard you, Ken H, Chris and others will be tasting more of the same this weekend on your farm and using one of Nina’s articles as a starting point. We’ll be interested to hear how it goes and hope Ken manages the ‘questions without notice’;- ) I’m sure Chris will have all the colour back in her life after the ‘monchrome’ week. Best wishes, Sarah ==== > > > > (also Anders) > > The point that I am trying to make (having found the words for it > know, I > > think), is that Buddhism is NOT about having correct understanding > of the > > scriptures, which I think many strive for. It is about getting to > the > > understanding that produced the scriptures. The scriptures should > not be > > verification for your own understanding. Rather, your understanding > should > > be verification of the scriptures. 14812 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Therevada Nun in Thailand Hi Christine, I referred to this quote in the article on the bhikkuni which suggested to the writer that that the ‘disappearance of the nuns’ component disable the Theravadin tradition’: > > "In another text, in a discussion with Mara, the Buddha is reminded > of his > > commitment not to pass away until the four components of a Buddhist > > society, namely monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen, became eligible > for > > nibbaana by cultivating the necessary qualities.[12]" He is referring to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta. when I skimmed through it, I couldn’t find the reference, but it conveniently just popped up in the extract from ADL I just read. Nina introduces it here: ***** “We all have in our daily life opportunities for dana and sila. As regards bhavana, this comprises samatha, vipassana, studying Dhamma or explaining it to others. Not only the monks, but also laypeople can study and teach Dhamma. We read in the 'MahaParinibbana-sutta' (Ch. III, l12, l13) that the Buddha told Ananda that Mara, the Evil One, had said to the Buddha after his enlightenment that it was now the time for him to pass away. The Buddha said: And when he had thus spoken, Ananda, I addressed Mara, the Evil One, and said:- -'I shall not pass away, O Evil One! until not only the monks and sisters of the Order, but also the laydisciples of either sex shall have become true hearers, wise and well trained, ready and learned, carrying the teachings in their memory, masters of the lesser corolaries that follow from the larger doctrine, correct in life, walking according to the precepts-- until they, having thus themselves learned the doctrine, shall be able to tell others of it, preach it, make it known, establish it, open it, minutely explain it and make it clear-- until they, when others start vain doctrine easy to be refuted by the truth, shall be able in refuting it to spread the wonderworking truth abroad! I shall not die until this pure religion of mine shall have become successful, prosperous, widespread, and popular in all its full extent-- until, in a word, it shall have been well proclaimed among men!' “ ***** There is no denying the gradual decline of the Sasana. However, when I read this quote from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta or the other one from Mahavaccagotta Sutta, I am reminded of how universal the Teachings are and how laydisciples can also ‘become true hearers, wise and well trained, ready and learned, carrying the teachings in their memory.........’ and so on. I’m not sure that it has any bearing on the question of the restoration of the bhikkuni order. What do you think? __ --- christine_forsyth wrote: > I have > little knowledge of this issue, and I still hope calm discussions and > explanations will be forthcoming at some point. This has not > happened elsewhere. At least, any discussion has never been with the > same thoroughness and kindness that other topics (where opinions > differ) have been explored (e.g. formal meditation, the value of the > Abhidhamma itself). It would be good to see all the information for > the basis of the current Theravada position laid out, and an > explanation of why the six recommendations in the article are/are not > sufficient to justify the restoring of the the Order of Nuns to the > Theravadin Tradition. ..... I have little knowledge on this issue either, but I don’t mind exploring it a little with you, looking at any texts in question. ..... >If anyone had the knowledge, and the > willingness to impart it, snail's pace - one point at a time - would > be perfect. ..... Maybe we can start looking together - ‘snail’s pace - one point at a time -’and perhaps others will join our ‘calm discussions’ if they have ‘the knowledge, and the willingness to impart it’.so that ‘the same thououghness and kindness’ given to other topics can be given to this one as I know you’d like. . This is the first point. Do you have any comments or would you like to introduce any comments/textual support you’ve heard for or against this first possibility ‘presented by G.P.M. Malalasekera’, before I add anything further? ***** “First, according to the Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, the Buddha, when lying on his death bed, is said to have told his attendant Aananda that the Sa"ngha was permitted to abolish lesser and minor rules.[23] Malalasekara says "That, then, is the first possibility - a decision by a representative assembly of the Sa"ngha to dispense with the traditional ceremonial in the ordination of nuns."[24] Making use of the Buddha's final concession, it is within the power of the Bhikkhu Sa"ngha to make the necessary amendments to restore the Bhikkhunii Sa"ngha by performing an ordination without, the participation of nuns. If any monk believes that the rules pertaining to the ordination of nuns are of major concern and do not fall within the category of "lesser and minor rules," he would be invited to come forth and justify his position.” Sarah ===== 14813 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 4:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thus have I heard Dear Jim, --- jkl_california wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks so much for your writings. Your translations of Ajahn > Sujin's "Perfections" are especially helpful. ..... I’ll leave your question to Nina. It’s really good to see your keen interest. I believe you are new to DSG and if so thanks for this excellent first post and a warm welcome! To avoid confusion, (we have another regular, but often lurking Jim A and used to have another Jim) you might like to be Jim K or L;-) If you’re near San Fran, you might also be interested to liaise with Kom to join the discussion with A.Sujin when she visits very soon. If you’d care to add anything further by way of an intro, we’d all be glad to know a little more about you. Sarah ===== 14814 From: goglerr Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 8:30pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend Dear Robert, I was following your interesting message and something caught my eye. Regarding on the statement of vipallasa, that all types of perversions are eradicated by sotapatti maggaphala may not be that true. On my understanding that only ditthi vipallasa are eradicated at that stage. A sotapana can still have anger, sensual desire, ignorance but not wrong view about permanent or everlasting self. Only arahants can only eradicate sanna and citta vipalassa. G --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --Dear Ken, > Thanks for your note. This is a hard subject and I know Nina or Kom > could explain more thoroughly. > In the paticcasamuppada wrong view is classifeied into there types: > Ditthupadanam, wrong view clinging > silabatupadanam , clinging to sila and rituals, wrong practice > Attavadupadanam , clinging to personality belief, self view. > > All of these are eliminated by sotapattimagga > > Under the vipallasa (perversions)atta vipallasa (perverted view of > self) is classified in three grades- ditthi , then citta, then > sanna. > Again all these are eradicated by sotapattimagga. > > I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and considered > deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not arise often ( > this is a coarse belief) but other levels do; depending on the > degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > And as soon as we start thinking "I understand not-self" there is > conceit - different from ditthi, but one of the papanca (prolongers > of samsara)- jumping in, boots and all. > > On the Dhammapada quote: > -Once, there was a bhikkhu who was feeling remorse for having > unwittingly cut some grass. He confided about this to another > bhikkhu. The latter was reckless and stubborn by nature, and he did > not think much about committing small misdeeds. So he replied to the > first bhikkhu, "Cutting grass is a very minor offence; if you just > confide and confess to another bhikkhu you are automatically > exonerated. There is nothing to worry about." So saying, he > proceeded to uproot some grass with both hands to show that he > thought very little of such trivial offences. When the Buddha was > told about this he reprimanded the reckless, stubborn bhikkhu. > > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > > Verse 311. Just as kusa grass if badly held cuts that very hand, so > also, the ill-led life of a bhikkhu drags that bhikkhu down to > niraya. > > Verse 312. An act perfunctorily performed, or a practice that is > depraved, or a questionable conduct of a bhikkhu is not of much > benefit. > > > BTW one of the meanings of kusala is derived from kusa: > "Kusa grass cuts a part of the hand with both edges. Even so kusala > cuts off both sections of passions - those that have arisen and > those that have not arisen" (abhidhammathasangaha) > Robert > > > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Dear Robert K > > > > Thank you for this helpful message. You make > > the point that a deep, subtle perception of > > self is different from wrong view. Of course, > > the subtle perceptions and the wrong views are > > all conceptual (products of thinking), by the > > time we worldlings can be aware of them. In > > both cases, the realities that have been > > arising and falling away will probably include > > quite a lot of ditthi in amongst the usual > > lobha and moha and, hopefully, a few kusala > > moments as well. > > > > As I understand what you are saying, the > > involuntary idea of a controlling self does > > not, *of itself*, indicate that there has been > > ditthi (rising and falling away). What it > > does indicate is atta-sanna. (Thanks for > > mentioning that -- another reality I need to > > study.) > > > > On the other hand, if we are thinking that > > realities need to be controlled, then that is > > different. If we think the currently arising > > realities (including wrong view), are > > ineligible as objects of satipatthana, then we > > can be sure there has been of a lot of ditthi. > > > > To digress a little, may I ask your opinion of > > the verse in the Dhammapada which says (from > > memory), "The Dhamma wrongly grasped is like > > swordgrass wrongly grasped, it cuts deeply." > > > > Does this imply a separate category of ditthi > > which is specifically directed at the Buddha's > > teaching? Or is the case that all ditthi > > (other than samma-ditti), amounts to a wrong > > grasp of the Dhamma? > > > > Kind regards > > Ken H > > P.S. Both parents are hale and hearty, thanks > > everyone for your metta. I have been home > > since the weekend but am still way behind in > > my dsg reading. `taking the time to > > appreciate every post. > > KH > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > > KH> "We" can't get rid of wrong > > > view - but by seeing ditthi, view (which in the case of > believing > > > that sati can be controlled is a very subtle and deep atta- > sanna, > > > self perception)it is let go of. > > > It is like the man who has gone down to the river for 20 years > and > > > done his ritual washings and chats and yoga; they make him feel > > good > > > and of themself are not dangerous- but it is the silabataupadana > > > (clinging to sila and ritual)the belief that this is purifying > the > > > mind that is wrong. > > > Wrong view always comes with lobha (attachment)and hence with > > > pleasant or neutral feeling- it can never feel bad! Right view > too > > > comes with only pleasant feeling or neutral feeling but it > arises > > > only with alobha (detachment). And rightview leading out of > > samsara > > > is intimately involoved with the understanding of anatta and > > > powerlessness -- then there is detachment from the idea of 'me' > > > practising; all the khandhas, every moment, are alien, and > > > uncontrollable. > > > Robert 14815 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 9:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ideas about birth and death Herman --- egberdina wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Just to supplement your comment that "my thoughts of birth and death are > based on the socially constructed and socially transmitted belief systems > of the groups I find myself in from time to time, not on experience", > there are of course one's observations of birth and death of others to add > into the mix, and I guess these count as 'experience' of some kind. [Herman:] <> [Jon:] It might be more correct to say there is no recollection (rather than no experience) of birth or death, since according to the teachings there is never a moment when consciousness does not arise. But your point remains, that our beliefs regarding these events are not based on any conscious (i.e., recollectable) experience in this lifetime. As I have suggested, though, this does not mean that our beliefs are entirely the product of conventional conditioning in this life. According to the teachings, everyone brings into this existence deeply-held beliefs in the form of latent accumulations from experiences/beliefs held in previous existences (and which may for all we know reflect some moments of actual experience or recollection). This no doubt explains to some extent at least the vastly different reactions to similar experiences as you mention in your message. > By the way, I am not so sure that direct experience is necessarily > entirely lacking in the ideas we may hold. I believe the texts indicate > that beings born in some of the heavenly realms are able to recollect > their previous life as a human being. Likewise, in previous lives one may > have attained the jhanas together with powers of recollection of former > lives. [Herman:] <> [Jon:] You ask if sanna is carried over endlessly. To my understanding, this indeed is what the texts indicate. However, the endlessly accumulated sanna does not have any real bearing on our powers of memory or recollection since these are conventional terms for what is in fact a series of mental processes rather than a particular dhamma. The function of sanna is simply to mark each and every object of citta, and without this there could be no later recognition or recall. The activities we refer to as subsequent recognition and recall based on that marking are not performed by sanna alone, as I understand it, but by multiple processes of thinking involving a number of mental factors of which sanna is only one. Thus, we all have 'perfect' sanna, but we have varying degrees of power of recall. [Herman:] <> [Jon:] The thought of a substantial I is still a thought; it is not the experience of anything. There is no limit to what thinking can come up with. The fact that we accept at an intellectual level that dhammas are not-self does not mean that thoughts such as this will suddenly disappear or even lessen, since the akusala that conditions those thoughts is not attenuated in the slightest by understanding at an intellectual level. If we are lucky, however, it will mean that wrong view is not further heaped up to quite the same degree that it would otherwise have been ;-)). Jon 14816 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 9:41pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend Dear Gogler, Thanks for following along. The vipallasa are somewhat involved. The sotapanna has eradicated all atta vipallasa (at the level of ditthi, sanna, and citta) as I said. He has also eliminated all nicca (permanence) vipallasa at all these levels. And he has eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and taking the foul for the beautiful at the level of Ditthi. However he hasn't eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and taking the foul for the beautiful at the levels of sanna and citta. Hence he still has desire for the pleasant and beutiful objects.(see patisambhidhimagga viii (2)) Robert --- "goglerr" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I was following your interesting message and something caught my eye. > Regarding on the statement of vipallasa, that all types of > perversions are eradicated by sotapatti maggaphala may not be that > true. On my understanding that only ditthi vipallasa are eradicated > at that stage. A sotapana can still have anger, sensual desire, > ignorance but not wrong view about permanent or everlasting self. > Only arahants can only eradicate sanna and citta vipalassa. > > G > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --Dear Ken, > > Thanks for your note. This is a hard subject and I know Nina or Kom > > could explain more thoroughly. > > In the paticcasamuppada wrong view is classifeied into there types: > > Ditthupadanam, wrong view clinging > > silabatupadanam , clinging to sila and rituals, wrong practice > > Attavadupadanam , clinging to personality belief, self view. > > > > All of these are eliminated by sotapattimagga > > > > Under the vipallasa (perversions)atta vipallasa (perverted view of > > self) is classified in three grades- ditthi , then citta, then > > sanna. > > Again all these are eradicated by sotapattimagga. > > > > I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and considered > > deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not arise often ( > > this is a coarse belief) but other levels do; depending on the > > degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > > And as soon as we start thinking "I understand not-self" there is > > conceit - different from ditthi, but one of the papanca (prolongers > > of samsara)- jumping in, boots and all. > > > > On the Dhammapada quote: > > -Once, there was a bhikkhu who was feeling remorse for having > > unwittingly cut some grass. He confided about this to another > > bhikkhu. The latter was reckless and stubborn by nature, and he did > > not think much about committing small misdeeds. So he replied to > the > > first bhikkhu, "Cutting grass is a very minor offence; if you just > > confide and confess to another bhikkhu you are automatically > > exonerated. There is nothing to worry about." So saying, he > > proceeded to uproot some grass with both hands to show that he > > thought very little of such trivial offences. When the Buddha was > > told about this he reprimanded the reckless, stubborn bhikkhu. > > > > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > > > > Verse 311. Just as kusa grass if badly held cuts that very hand, so > > also, the ill-led life of a bhikkhu drags that bhikkhu down to > > niraya. > > > > Verse 312. An act perfunctorily performed, or a practice that is > > depraved, or a questionable conduct of a bhikkhu is not of much > > benefit. > > > > > > BTW one of the meanings of kusala is derived from kusa: > > "Kusa grass cuts a part of the hand with both edges. Even so > kusala > > cuts off both sections of passions - those that have arisen and > > those that have not arisen" (abhidhammathasangaha) > > Robert > > > > > > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Dear Robert K > > > > > > Thank you for this helpful message. You make > > > the point that a deep, subtle perception of > > > self is different from wrong view. Of course, > > > the subtle perceptions and the wrong views are > > > all conceptual (products of thinking), by the > > > time we worldlings can be aware of them. In > > > both cases, the realities that have been > > > arising and falling away will probably include > > > quite a lot of ditthi in amongst the usual > > > lobha and moha and, hopefully, a few kusala > > > moments as well. > > > > > > As I understand what you are saying, the > > > involuntary idea of a controlling self does > > > not, *of itself*, indicate that there has been > > > ditthi (rising and falling away). What it > > > does indicate is atta-sanna. (Thanks for > > > mentioning that -- another reality I need to > > > study.) > > > > > > On the other hand, if we are thinking that > > > realities need to be controlled, then that is > > > different. If we think the currently arising > > > realities (including wrong view), are > > > ineligible as objects of satipatthana, then we > > > can be sure there has been of a lot of ditthi. > > > > > > To digress a little, may I ask your opinion of > > > the verse in the Dhammapada which says (from > > > memory), "The Dhamma wrongly grasped is like > > > swordgrass wrongly grasped, it cuts deeply." > > > > > > Does this imply a separate category of ditthi > > > which is specifically directed at the Buddha's > > > teaching? Or is the case that all ditthi > > > (other than samma-ditti), amounts to a wrong > > > grasp of the Dhamma? > > > > > > Kind regards > > > Ken H > > > P.S. Both parents are hale and hearty, thanks > > > everyone for your metta. I have been home > > > since the weekend but am still way behind in > > > my dsg reading. `taking the time to > > > appreciate every post. > > > KH > > > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 14817 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 10:00pm Subject: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Dear Larry, Sarah, and others, Thanks for replying to my questions. I didn't look for additional materials (except Larry's and Sarah's answer) for my questions, but I will attempt to answer my own questions according to my understandings. Any comments are welcome, of course. > -----Original Message----- > From: <> [mailto:<>] > > Hi Kom, here's my answers to your two sets of questions: > > 1) What is a meditation practice? > Larry: Relaxed attention to a single subject; may > or may not be > contemplative. The development of wisdom (vipassana development) is the accumulation of wisdom knowing realities as they are, as nama and rupa, as conditioned realities, as impermanence, as dukkha, and as anatta. It is not book knowledge: it is the non-forgetfullness and the wisdom of the realities that are rising at the current moment (since it is the only time where the characteristics as nama and rupa, as conditioned realities, etc., can be known). > For example, is it being at a specific place at a > specific time? > L: yes, what place is not specific? The time is now, and there is no other place. When a reality appears as it truly is, there is no place, until we think about it. There is no time either, except the rising and falling away of the realities, and then thinking about realities and time. > Is there a rule that we must follow in order for > it to be a meditation > practice? > L: yes, one pointed (ekaggata) There is one rule: know the realities that are arising as they truly are. While there is such knowledge, samma-dithi (wisdom), samma-sanghapa, samma-vayama, samma-sati, and samma-samathi (ekaggata) are con-ascent in the mundane states, and also with samma-vaca, samma-kammanta, and samma-achiva in the supramundane state. > What are the specific results/progress of a practice? > L: results = enlightenment, progress = peaceful, > calm, fewer worries, > fewer desires, realization of anatta by degrees > from shallow to deep to > complete The result (of the right practice) is the gradual accumulation of wisdom (of realities being just nama-rupa, being conditioned, etc), which results in less attachment (and wrong views) of the self, less attachment to the 5 kandhas, which will eventually result in the supra-mundane knowledge. > > Do we have to be at peace to practice? > L: yes, although agitation may be an object of meditation While sati arises, there is samatha (peace from akusala) that is conascent with the sati and wisdom. We hear many stories about when people became enlightened during the Buddha's time, and by far the majority (mentioned) was while listening to the dhamma. There were stories of those who are committing suicide, who were being seduced by women, who were doing their things in daily life. Were they at peace? While sati arises, they were... > > Do we have to follow rituals that we don't > normally follow in order to > be called practice? > L: yes, if our normal life is careless For attainment to occur, the 10 perfections must be fulfilled, and that means we need to develop kusala at all levels whenever possible. But the straight and only path is still the 8-fold path, which means satipatthana... There were people who attained in the Buddha's time even when their lives were seemingly careless too. I just read the story of Anathapindika's daughter-in-law who was heedless, mean, not helpful, unrespectful to their in-laws, who became sotapanna while first listening to the Buddha. I understand that the 10 perfections must have been fulfilled, and the path must have been walked for that to happen. > > If we are now mindful of the realities that are > occuring now, is that a > practice? > L: yes, if we are robbing a bank with > mindfulness, there is still a tiny > bit of practice involved The 8-fold path is satipatthana at the lokuttara level. While there is mindfulness and knowledge about the realities that are before us, we are walking the path (at the mundane level). > 2) Is what we learn about realities from the > Buddha the same as what we > "observe" in the practice? Or do we learn one > thing, and during the > practice, we observe another? > L: We learn a mountain of concepts and observe a > few realities The buddha explained the dhamma in details so that we don't become misguided by our own ignorance. The dhamma each individual panna can penetrate, each has the characteristics as described by the Buddha, for he was the one who thoroughly penetrated the characterstics of all realities and describe them as he had seen them. > 3) What do we learn when we "practice"? Is it > the same or different > from what we learn in hearing and considering? > L: I don't think we 'learn' calmness from > answering email questions We learn more about all the realities as they are gradually. There can be calm in answering email, if our mental states are kusala (and therefore have calmness!). > > 4) What's the difference between "sati" and > "wanting to observe what's > going on?" L: Sati isn't particularly curious Sati is non-forgetfullness. Sati in satipatthana is non-forgetfulness of realities. Attachment sticks to the object of attention. Both sati and attachment each can rise with either indifferent or pleasant feeling. > 5) Is wanting more sati a condition for the > rising of more sati? > L: yes, desire condition We have heard the buddha's teachings (and the simile) about the development of the 8-fold path. If one walks the right path, regardless of whether one wants to attain or not, eventually one will attain. But if one walks the wrong path, regardless of how much we want to attain, it is impossible. Desire is not a necessary condition for attainment, but I believe panna at all levels are. > Is the intention to observe realities a condition > for the rising of > sati? > L: yes, intention condition Intention (cetana) arises with all realities, including Sati, but intention is not a factor in the 8-fold path. > 1) Doing things slowly like walking slowly, > eating slowly? Neither the path nor support of the path. > 2) Oberserving silence, not speaking to each > other, regardless of what > the topics of discussions? The Buddha discourages non-useful speeches, but praises useful speeches. Non-useful speeches are neither the path nor support of the path. Useful speeches is definitely a support of the path. It is impossible for a non-buddha to attain without listening to a samma-sambuddha. > 3) Observing the sila, like the 5, the 8, or the 227? There were people who had major infractions of the 5 silas up to very close to the point of attainment. Following the rules of sila are not the path, but can be a support of the path, if co-arising with panna. The supra-mundane path has the 3 virati cetasikas as the sila components. > 4) Being mindful of realities that are appearing? This is the (first mundane, and eventually supramundane) path. > 5) Wanting to be more mindful? This is neither the path, nor a suport of the path. > 6) Hearing the dhamma? Satipatthana is the mundane path, and hearing the dhamma is its conditions. Hearing the dhamma is not (???) the path, but is a pre-requisite for entering the path. > 7) Considering the dhamma? Same as 6). > 8) Mental peacefulness? Being free from the > thoughts that cause us > discomfort? There were monks who attained when they were committing suicide! > 9) Eating only twice a day? This is not the path, but can be a support of the path, if done with panna. > 10) Discussing the dhamma? Similar to 6 and 7, at least for the veneyya (those who can attain in this life, but after a long period of wisdom development) and pattaparamat (those who cannot attain in this life, even though they may develop panna, a condition for futuer attainment). > Larry: all the above are factors contributing to > the path and teachings > of the Buddha. > > what are your answers? > Thanks again for your answers, Larry. kom 14818 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 0:33am Subject: vipallasa for stream entry Re: [dsg] Re: Noosa weekend are you sure you got this right Robert? do you have a link to an online version we can verify? it sounds highly improbable that one could understand the marks of impermanence and anatta to such a degree, with no perversions at the level consciousness, perception, or views, yet still have misperception of dukkha. If that's what the commentaries or suttas say, then I would have to disagree with those sources as well :) -fk --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Gogler, > Thanks for following along. > The vipallasa are somewhat involved. The sotapanna > has eradicated > all atta vipallasa (at the level of ditthi, sanna, > and citta) as I > said. He has also eliminated all nicca (permanence) > vipallasa at all > these levels. And he has eliminated taking sukkha > for dukkha and > taking the foul for the beautiful at the level of > Ditthi. However he > hasn't eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and > taking the foul for > the beautiful at the levels of sanna and citta. > Hence he still has > desire for the pleasant and beutiful objects.(see > patisambhidhimagga > viii (2)) > > Robert 14819 From: Anders Honore Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 0:44am Subject: Forwarding to list Hi Sarah. Snipped as ruthlessly as I felt I could. > Ok, I wouldn't put myself in the "well-versed in the Pali Canon" category > by any means (and this isn't any false humility;-))...... we agree on the > great benefit of the study. Ah well, perhaps different understandings of the words. I think I have a basic knowledge of what the scriptural canon covers. But as for details.... That's for experts :-) .... > > I think we can easily agree that the understanding > > of the Dhamma is > > antecedent to the spoken Dhamma. > > Not so easily at all. If we don't hear the spoken Dhamma (or read the > written Dhamma) and carefully consider, there won't be any understanding. > Only Buddhas and Pacceka Buddhas don't need to hear the Dhamma in the > lifetime before they develop wisdom and become enlightened. Allow me to clarify: Understanding of the Dhamma is that which produced the written Dhamma. In this way, understanding of the Dhamma is antecedent to the the written Dhamma. Thus, from this, one can learn that one must attain to an understanding antecedent to the written Dhamma, that is, not reliant on the written Dhamma, but nor in contradiction to it. > If the intellectual understanding or the "spoken Dhamma" is taken as > direct understanding it's wrong. Agreed. Also agreed is that lobha will > grasp onto anything, including the Spoken Dhamma, the knowledge of theory > or anything else. Moreover, it should be recognised as being intrinsically deluded. Although it may be skilful in leading to true insight, it is, in itself, still a product of the deluded mind and thus should not be clung to. ... > > Study of the practise of Dhamma is usually quite > > straightforward. It tells > > you what to do, in order to attain proper > > understanding of the Dhamma. The > > trap for some is that they bring up practises which > > they do not yet have > > capacity to carry out, because of lack of > > understanding or otherwise. > > "It tells you what to do"....hmmm.....I disagree that 'proper > understanding of the Dhamma' can be formulated into a 'what to do' recipe. > I'll wait for further explanation of your meaning here. I thought I might have been too brief here. Understanding and practise of the Dhamma cannot really be separated, because they are deeply intertwined. One's understanding of the Dhamma conditions one's quality and level of practise, and likewise, the practise conditions one's development of insight. So no, they can't really be separated that easily. > If it is seen as merely an interesting > theoretical construct, separate from 'practice', it's quite useless. I will add, that there is also the danger of projecting these 'constructs' unto reality. One must arrive at this understanding, not produce it, if you know what I mean. But otherwise, agreed. > Anwyay, we agree that any idea that the written or spoken word or mastery > of these as being any direct understanding is wrong and can be highly > misleading. I don't agree that we are seeking 'the understanding (i.e. > the Buddha's understanding) that produced these words", but do agree that > it is only the direct understanding that ultimately is of any value. What do you say then, is the nature of direct understanding? If not the Buddha's understanding, then what? The scriptures' understanding? What understanding to they have? They are just expressions of understanding. Not understanding itself. > (Btw, you don't mention what understanding or panna understands...) Even in the many stages of awakening, the realm of apperances exerts its influence, and thus, what Panna understands, can be said in many ways. Although I do not claim any ultimate understanding, it is my experience so far, that intrinsically, Panna understands the Four Noble Truths, ie cause and effect just as it is, but without conscious awareness of it being so, although it is recognised as such upon reflection. When truly realised, this could be said to be the total realisation of emptiness, ie, that realisation, that nothing truly exists, in and of itself, and through this, one does not grasp at the existence or non-existence of dhammas. Again, I do not claim knowledge of the understanding at the end of the path, and so cannot say what Panna sees, from an ultimate perspective. > One more point I don't agree (possible misunderstanding) with is your > comment about understanding being 'employed freely according to > circumstances'.....hmmm, possible self creeping in. A statement to be understood as having an understanding not fixated (ie, not rooted in static, thus conceptual understanding), and thus responds to the causal circumstances at hand directly, without static, conceptual reflection, dwelling upon the situation, to attain discernment of the situation at hand. As for grasping at the view of spontaneity, I do not perceive dhammas to be so, as that would imply that they exist as independent entities. .... > Anders, in this sutta (Dutthatthaka Sutta), as in the suttas you quoted > from before in Sutta Nipata, let's be quite clear that the Buddha is > referring to wrong views and unwholesome mental states. 'One whose >doctinres aren't clean'. In my Saddhatissa translation, I'm reading "He > whose views are mentally. constructed, causally formed, highly esteemed > but not pure..".The next but one sutta, the Paramatthaka sutta, > specifically refers in the translation I have to 'dogmatic view' and how > the 'brahmin is not led by rule and rite'. These are wrong views or wrong > understandings (i.e. the opposite of samma ditthi, the first factor of the > noble 8fold Path) that are referred to. Twisting it a bit: Are you perhaps perciving this sutta to conform with your own understanding of the Dhamma, to make the scriptures be in line with your understanding? I am no Pali expert, so I cannot say which is right. The translation, as Thanisarro Bikkhu, sounds true to me, thus I did not question it. If you wish to pursue the matter of authenticity of understanding this scripture, then perhaps comparing it to Bikkhu Bodhi's translation might illuminate the subject. But I would think that there is more merit to examining how the mind reacts and analyses the scripture, in connection with one's preconceived views and position. > Now we really start to come to our 'difference' of understanding. As I > read you here and in previous posts, you take all views and understandings > of an intellectual nature to be wrong and needing to be relinquished. No, not wrong. Right views are skilful, in that they lead to development of effacement of habitual tendencies, craving, and attachment. However, they are in themselves, habitual tendencies, and being formed, karma generating dhammas, even though they are karma-generating dhammas that lead to the effacement of other karma-generating dhammas, and thus, will eventually have to be relinquished too. .... > Actually, I recall discussing them in detail in January (?) with you and > believe you bowed out of this discussion. (Just found my last post to you > here, I think) > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7060.html lol. I don't remember this to be honest. > Now you probably decided that when I started quoting from the abhidhamma, > that I was merely 'grasping at doctines';-) It is not unlikely. It is easy to to grasp at the perception of others being caught in impurity, especially if one grasps at purity in connection with oneself. As I said, I do not remember the concrete situation, so I cannot speak about the concrete motives at the time. What I wrote above, however, is an indicator of a general tendency at the time on my part. .... > hmm....Perhaps we can just > agree -- and I thank you for pointing this out with these helpful quotes > -- that we kid ourselves often and even when we are quoting the Buddha, > the impure motives and the 'personal advantage', the 'grasping' and > 'rejecting' based on 'views' are often apparent and often unrecognised. Yes, I will now speak of the principle of stopping and seeing in relation to this, which, though not explicitly mentioned in the Pali Canon, is hinted at in the teaching of samatha and Vipassana. For those of very sharp discernment (this too, is a common conceit, that one is has sharp faculties), one can immediately cut to the heart of the matter, and recognise the grasping and rejecting, based on views (even those of the Dhamma) which has previously gone unreognised (the principle of seeing). However, for those, in which the habitual tendencies of the mind carry a strong influence, unraveling this flow, can be extremely difficult. Thus, it can be of help to be in a place where one is not prone to grasp at the Dhamma, and accept and reject certain views, based on one's entrenchment in views already. This can be accomplished, by not indulding in the habits of form, with which, these habits of mind, are often associated. For instance, debating the nature of Dhamma can be seen as a major impedement to the development of the mind, if one is prone to grasping at the Dhamma, and twisting it to suits one's own perception and understanding, in connection with one's own views. Likewise, with scriptural study. Thus, I do not say that scriptural study is absolutely skilful, nor is debating the Dhamma. But these tendencies can be hard to recognise, especially, if one craves for not having them. Moving on... When not indulging in these habits of form, these unskilful tendencies of the mind, do not proliferate, and thus, there is stopping. From this place, one can reverse the light, and recognise that whicg, from moment to moment, has previously gone unrecognised, and through seeing and comprehending them as they are, the habitual tendencies are weakened. The same principle works with Samatha, where one delves into deep meditation, where unskilful qualitties and tendencies are not proliferating in the mind. But nonetheless, the seeds for these tendencies are still present in the mind, and if one does not apply one's attention to these, then one is merely practising Brahmanic meditation, and not the transcendent one the Buddha taught. > We both understand all views are fabricated or conditioned. Can we both > agree that all realities (except nibbana) are indeed fabricated > (sankhara)? Even moments of insight and jhana are fabricated. The 5 > khandhas are indeed sankhara. Intrinsically yes. However, the direct understanding (Panna) that enables the mind to see things as they are, lies latent in the mind, obscured by ignorance. Thus, it is through unraveling that which has already come into being (views, concepts, all products of ages of accumulated delusion), that one arrives at direct seeing. > We both agree that ingorance is the cause of the cycle of samsara and > remains a latent tendency until arahatship is attained, I think. You > mention 'pure Dhamma'. Does this refer to moments of insight, to > realization of nibbana or to nibbana itself? If I were to pursue this question, I think it would lead to a debate on Nibbana, in relation to wisdom, which I think would do nothing, except to reveal a greater chasm in our understanding. I do not perceive this to be skilful at the moment, so I will let this be. I apologise for mentioning something that was not furthering understanding at the moment. > I accept your point that any theoretical view is only theoretical, is not > firm, can be influenced and 'can be shaken' and thus does not offer any > 'security'. However, in this passage I read the emphasis to be on wrong > views, 'views in which he sees personal advantage'. these are compared > with the views of those without 'delusion and conceit'. So, I think your > emphasis is a little off-track in interpretation here, useful though it > may be. (maybe Rob K or Suan will fish out the Pali to help us). Are you saying that one with Right View, though not endowed with Panna, has an understanding that can not be shaken, that canot not, through skilful talk (skilful for whatever end, pure or impure, the speaker may be aiming at), be changed to wrong views? That once one embarks on the path of the Buddhadhamma, and begins to learn of Right Views, then the path is irreversible? > Can we say the entrenchment refers to attachment and wrong view? "He > rejects one and grasps another?" As you point out, these states can arise > regardless of the subject matter. We can say it refers to attachment. > The only non fabricated, non formed, unconditioned state is nibbana. All > conditioned realities should be understood as they are. We need to hear > and consider a lot about what these conditioned realities are. See what I wrote about understanding obscured by ignorance above. When I say unformed, I say that delusion, views and ignorance can be untagled in this life, and thus they come into being and ceae in this life, whereas the mind, even with the cessation of ignorance, does not cease until the death of the physical body, due to its dependence on it. > Ok, let me be direct here, Anders. You seem to be 'fixated' on this > comprehension of views (leaving aside the difference in understanding as > to kinds of views). By views, you are referring to certain namas, moments > of thinking accompanied by attachment or wrong view, I understand. The > objects of the thinking are merely concepts and therefore don't *exist* > and cannot be known. However, there are many, many other namas and rupas > (mental and physical phenomena) which the Buddha discusses in detail in > the suttas as well as the abhidhamma. He also makes it very apparent that > without understanding these various namas and rupas when they are > apparent, there cannot be any higher levels of wisdom. Are these namas and rupas properly comprehended through views, or through direct seeing? > Yet, you seem to have no interest in clearly differentiating them or > clearly differentiating conventional and absolute realities. Which conventional and absolute realities do you say I do not distinguish? When dealing with conventional realities, I speak of views, because this is what they are rooted in, even if they are views of transcendence. In regard to absolute understanding, though it knows itself to be transcendent, it does not reflect on itself as being such, and thus goes beyond labels and forms, which are the characteristics of conventional understanding. Te minute I speak of it, it becomes conventional. > I suggest > there is a big danger in throwing out the baby with the bath water here by > pointing out repeatedly the trap of clinging to theoretical understanding > when we know that hearing and considering the details of all paramattha > dhammas in depth is so essential for direct understanding to develop and > for wrong views to be eradicated. Do we? Consider the story of the recluse Bahiya; he was given the briefest of teaching on the Dhamma: "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Through this, he attained Arahantship. It is repeatedly said, that an Arahant knows the Dhamma through release from ignorance, and the knowledge of the Dhamma is just knowledge of dependent co-origination. However, Bahiaya was never taught about dependent co-origination before he died. Can you tell me then, how he came to that knowledge, without hearing of it, being neither Pacceka Buddha nor Samyaksambuddha, but an Arahant? > In between the views now, there are > moments of seeing, hearing, feelings and so on. Is there any understanding > of them? > > What is the reluctance here? There is understanding of them, to a certain degree, though not entirely, as delusion is still active in mind. I adress the nature of views here, because they are what obstructs the direct comprehension of these dhammas. > "Your understanding should be verification of the scriptures" sounds > somewhat arrogant and misguided as though one is saying that the words of > the Buddha are correct if they conform with what is directly known and > experienced only. No, the other way around. Your understanding can be said to be correct, if what is directly known and experienced, corresponds with the Buddha's Dhamma. > On this basis, most of the world's population would > therefore rightly conclude that what the Buddha taught was nonsense and > would not be inclined to consider further. This seems to be a popular interpretation of the Kalama Sutta these days..... 14820 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thus have I heard Dear Rob Ep, Thank you very much for the intro section. The Co has more about this and I find it very interesting, I am already reading the Co. now. I have to wait reacting to your and Larry's remarks and questions for a while. Tomorrow we take my father and dog out for several hours, and also, I have to get on with my translation of the Perfections. I shall certainly come back to the sutta and commentary. Best wishes from Nina. op 07-08-2002 06:46 schreef Robert Epstein op <>: > Dear Nina, > Here is the opening section from the anapanasati sutta, and a link to the rest > of > the translated sections on this site. 14821 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 2:08am Subject: vipallasa for stream entry Re: [dsg] Re: Noosa weekend --- Dear Frank, Nice to see everyone checking up on me. Nanamoli confirms what I wrote in his translation of the Patisambhidhimagga (part of the sutta pitaka); and the Pali confirms that Nanamoli is right (assuming the Burmese rendition is correct). I did make a typo below earlier I reversed sukkha and dukkha:"And he has eliminated taking sukkha > > for dukkha and " Should be "And he has eliminated taking dukkha for sukkha ...at the level of ditthi ". Dukkha is deep! 8. Vipallaasakathaa Ime cattaaro vipallaasaa di.t.thisampannassa puggalassa pahiinaa, appahiinaati. Keci pahiinaa, keci appahiinaa? Anicce niccanti sa~n~naavi pallaaso cittavipallaaso di.t.thivipallaaso pahiino. Dukkhe sukhanti sa~n~naa uppajjati, citta.m uppajjati, di.t.thivipallaaso pahiino. Anattani attaati sa~n~naavipallaaso cittavipallaaso di.t.thivipallaaso pahiino. Asubhe subhanti sa~n~naa uppajjati, citta.m uppajjati, di.t.thivipallaaso pahiino. The phrase near the beginning: '"di.t.thisampannassa puggalassa" means person who possesses right view - i.e. sotapanna. Robert frank kuan wrote: > are you sure you got this right Robert? do you have a > link to an online version we can verify? it sounds > highly improbable that one could understand the marks > of impermanence and anatta to such a degree, with no > perversions at the level consciousness, perception, or > views, yet still have misperception of dukkha. If > that's what the commentaries or suttas say, then I > would have to disagree with those sources as well :) > > -fk > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > Dear Gogler, > > Thanks for following along. > > The vipallasa are somewhat involved. The sotapanna > > has eradicated > > all atta vipallasa (at the level of ditthi, sanna, > > and citta) as I > > said. He has also eliminated all nicca (permanence) > > vipallasa at all > > these levels. And he has eliminated taking sukkha > > for dukkha and > > taking the foul for the beautiful at the level of > > Ditthi. However he > > hasn't eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and > > taking the foul for > > the beautiful at the levels of sanna and citta. > > Hence he still has > > desire for the pleasant and beutiful objects.(see > > patisambhidhimagga > > viii (2)) > > > > Robert > 14822 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 4:59am Subject: On the Restoration of Bhikkhuni Order, was [dsg] Re: Therevada Nun in Thailand Hi Sarah, Thanks for this post. I may be a while in replying .... the pace will be that of a Very Slow Snail :) Lots of reading around this point, let alone the whole topic. metta, Christine > > This is the first point. Do you have any comments or would you like to > introduce any comments/textual support you've heard for or against this > first possibility `presented by G.P.M. Malalasekera', before I add > anything further? > ***** > "First, according to the Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, the Buddha, when lying > on his death bed, is said to have told his attendant Aananda that the > Sa"ngha was permitted to abolish lesser and minor rules.[23] Malalasekara > says "That, then, is the first possibility - a decision by a > representative assembly of the Sa"ngha to dispense with the traditional > ceremonial in the ordination of nuns."[24] Making use of the Buddha's > final concession, it is within the power of the Bhikkhu Sa"ngha to make > the necessary amendments to restore the Bhikkhunii Sa"ngha by performing > an ordination without, the participation of nuns. If any monk believes > that the rules pertaining to the ordination of nuns are of major concern > and do not fall within the category of "lesser and minor rules," he would > be invited to come forth and justify his position." > > Sarah > ===== 14823 From: <> Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 7:18am Subject: ADL ch. 19 (4) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 19 (4) There are still other kinds of kamavacara sobhana cittas: the maha-kiriyacittas. The arahat has maha-kiriyacittas instead of maha-kusala cittas. When we experience a pleasant object lobha may arise and when we experience an unpleasant object dosa may arise. The arahat has equanimity towards pleasant objects or unpleasant objects; he has no defilements. Since he cannot accumulate any more akusala kamma or kusala kamma, he has maha-kiriyacittas (inoperative cittas). For the arahat, there are, instead of maha-kusala cittas, maha-kiriyacittas performing the function of javana after the votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness) and the mano-dvaravajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness). One may wonder whether the arahat can have maha-kiriyacittas which are nana-vippayutta (not accompanied by wisdom). Arahats can have maha-kiriyacittas which are nana-vippayutta, because panna does not necessarily accompany the maha-kiriyacittas when they are not preaching or discussing Dhamma. The arahat has kiriyacittas which are sobhana cittas and also kiriyacittas which are asobhana cittas. The panca-dvaravajjana-citta (five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness, the mano-dvaravajjana-citta and the hasituppada-citta (smile-producing-consciousness of the arahat) are asobhana kiriyacittas. These types of citta are not accompanied by sobhana cetasikas, they are ahetuka. There are eight types of maha-kiriyacittas in all. They are accompanied by somanassa or by upekkha, they are accompanied by panna or not accompanied by panna, they are asankharika or sasankharika. They are classified in the same way as the eight types of maha-kusala cittas. Altogether there are fifty-four cittas which are kama-bhumi (Bhumi is plane, in this case, plane of citta, not plane of existence.), or kamavacara cittas, cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness. They are: 12 akusala cittas 18 ahetuka cittas }30 sobhana cittas 8 maha-kusala cittas 8 maha-vipakacittas }24 sobhana cittas 8 maha-kiriyacittas There are also sobhana cittas which are not kama-sobhana cittas, namely: the sobhana cittas which are rupa-bhumi (rupavacara cittas, for those who attain rupa-jhana) the sobhana cittas which are arupa-bhumi (arupavacara cittas, for those who attain arupa-jhana) the sobhana cittas which are lokuttara-bhumi, for those who attain enlightenment Only kamavacara cittas (cittas of the kama-bhumi or sensuous plane of consciousness) can be asobhana cittas. Cittas which are rupa-bhumi, arupa-bhumi and lokuttara-bhumi can only be sobhana cittas. Those who do not attain jhana or attain enlightenment cannot have the cittas of the other bhumis, but they can verify the truth of the Buddha's teachings as regards the kama-bhumi. We can find out for ourselves whether it is helpful to perform dana, observe sila and cultivate bhavana. We can find out whether the cultivation of these ways of kusala helps us to have less akusala cittas. Sometimes it is the right moment for dana, sometimes for sila or for bhavana. Vipassana, however, one can cultivate while performing dana, observing sila, cultivating samatha, or while one is studying or teaching Dhamma, and also at those moments when there is no opportunity for dana, sila or the other ways of kusala. Even if mindfulness of nama and rupa has not yet been accumulated much, one can find out whether it is a condition for having less akusala cittas and less attachment to the concept of self. In being mindful we can verify the truth of the Buddha's teachings. We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Sevens, Ch. VIII, par. 9, The message): 'Now the venerable Upali came to the Exalted One, saluted and sat down at one side. So seated, he said: 'Well were it for me, lord, if the Exalted One were to expound Dhamma briefly to me, so that, having heard it, I might abide resolute, alone, secluded, earnest and zealous.' 'The doctrines, Upali, of which you may know; 'These doctrines lead one not to complete weariness (of the world), nor to dispassion, nor to ending, nor to calm, nor to knowledge, nor to the awakening, nor to the cool' -- regard them definitely as not Dhamma, not the discipline, not the word of the Teacher. But the doctrines of which you may know: 'These doctrines lead one to complete weariness, dispassion, ending, calm, knowledge, the awakening, the cool'-- regard them unreservedly as Dhamma, the discipline, the word of the Teacher.' Questions 1. Which cittas are ahetuka (without hetu)? Are they always asobhana? 2. Do arahats have asobhana cittas? 3. Why is the jhanacitta not kamavacara citta? 4. Are maha-kusala cittas always accompanied by somanassa (pleasant feeling)? 5. Are all sobhana cittas kusala cittas? 6. Can vipakacitta be sobhana citta? 7. Can kiriyacitta be sobhana citta? 8. Why has the arahat maha-kiriyacittas instead of maha-kusala cittas? 9. How many types of kamavacara cittas are there? 14824 From: <> Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 8:18am Subject: Re: FW: [dsg] Re: Attainment of Theris in daily life. Hi Kom, I'm not clear on what is the path. Would you explain that? Also, is listening to the dhamma a bhavana? If so, what makes an activity a bhavana? thanks, Larry 14825 From: azita gill Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: past/future lives, was Noosa weekend --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Ken, > There is also the > Alagaddupama Sutta in the Majjhima nikaya (22)where > it explains that > learning the Dhamma wrongly is like catching a snake > by the tail. > One can study with the wrong motivations and > actually increase mana > and ditthi and tanha - and this applies to all of > us. Again and > again we should examine to see whether we are > unknowingly trying to > gain something for 'me'. This is a good sutta to > discuss. > Robert dear Robert, e very good - I like the reminders. What about this - if I do something in this life knowing it may benefit the being in the future, that is 'me'in the future [ ooo- this sounds like atta] however I have no way of knowing when, or even if, that result will happen, but I know if there is a result[vipaka] is may be pleasant. Can I have compassion for a being that doesn't exist yet, but I'm fairly certain will and 'I'm' doing something now to benefit that future being? I'm not too sure about this question and I must add that that this thought has only occurred one other time. I can't remember past lives and I probably won't remember this life in the future, I think memory of past lives is a highly developed ability. , Would be interested to hear your [or anyone elses] comment on this. > May you have much patience, courage and good cheer, < Azita.> > > 14826 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] help - lots of mail Dearest Christine and Fk, Thank you for your help and kind words. I will try doing what you suggested Christine and see how it works. I appreciate the help as I was feeling overwhelmed with all the emails from the group. This solution will certain create a little space in my inbox. With metta, Shakti christine_forsyth wrote:Hi Deanna (and Azita), I solved the problem of the procession of non-stop emails from choking up my inbox by going to: http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups Click on "Edit my Groups" - change any lists (especially those with heavy email traffic) to "no mail" by selecting under "message delivery", click on "save changes" and then read at the website at your leisure by returning anytime to the link above and clicking on the Group Name in the left hand column. Like Frank, I don't always read all posts or all threads immediately. Azita - I just remembered we were also discussing this subject at Noosa.:) metta, Christine --- frank kuan wrote: > Deanna, you can set up your yahoo email account filter > (search for "dsg") and put it into a separate folder > for starters so it doesn't get mixed up with other > email. > > The desire to maintain orderliness and read every > single message in dsg is a nonobvious type of dukkha. > Dukkha should be understood. When dukkha is seen, it's > easier to let it go. > > I realized a while back that there is no law that > demands that once I start reading a book or email that > I have to finish it. Quite liberating insight and > frees up loads of time. > > -fk > 14827 From: goglerr Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 1:51pm Subject: Re: Vipallasa Dear Robert, Thanks for the sharing. I went through the PTS version and found the references that you gave. Interesting. metta G --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Gogler, > Thanks for following along. > The vipallasa are somewhat involved. The sotapanna has eradicated > all atta vipallasa (at the level of ditthi, sanna, and citta) as I > said. He has also eliminated all nicca (permanence) vipallasa at all > these levels. And he has eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and > taking the foul for the beautiful at the level of Ditthi. However he > hasn't eliminated taking sukkha for dukkha and taking the foul for > the beautiful at the levels of sanna and citta. Hence he still has > desire for the pleasant and beutiful objects.(see patisambhidhimagga > viii (2)) > > Robert > --- > > "goglerr" wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > > > I was following your interesting message and something caught my > eye. > > Regarding on the statement of vipallasa, that all types of > > perversions are eradicated by sotapatti maggaphala may not be that > > true. On my understanding that only ditthi vipallasa are > eradicated > > at that stage. A sotapana can still have anger, sensual desire, > > ignorance but not wrong view about permanent or everlasting self. > > Only arahants can only eradicate sanna and citta vipalassa. > > > G > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: 14828 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 2:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipallasa Hi Goglerr & All, --- goglerr wrote: > Dear Robert, > Thanks for the sharing. I went through the PTS version and found the > references that you gave. Interesting. ..... This is an extract from an earlier post of Kom’s (see under vipallasa in U.P.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ***** Kom: As for Vipallasa, there are 3 categories: 1) Sanna-vipallasa (perversion of memory) (S) 2) Citta-vipallasa (perversion of mind) (C) 3) Dithi-vipallasa (perversion of view). (D) Except for the dithi vipallasa---which occurs only with the 4 lobha-mula cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) with micha-ditthi (wrong views)---sanna vipallasa, and citta vipallasa occur with all akusala cittas (with some ariyans exempted). Vipallassa are not said to occur in sobhana (beautiful) cittas and ahetuka (without the 6 hetu cetasikkas) cittas. The objects of the vipalassa are four: 1) Seeing impermanence as permenance 2) Seeing dukha as sukha 3) Seeing anatta as atta 4) Seeing asubha as subha The vipallasa is not completely eradicated until one becomes an ariyan. The different levels of eradication are as followed: Impermanence Dukha Anatta Asubha Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D ***** Sarah ===== 14829 From: robmoult Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 3:07pm Subject: Mindfulness for Children Hi Sarah, One of my students in my Abhidhamma class sent me a link to a site with provides tools to teach mindfulness to children. http://www.mindfulnessclasses.com/tucsonet/bilby/kindergarten.htm Don't be fooled by the title, this is not just for kindergarten kids - I really liked the graphics for thinking and egolessness. Thanks, Rob M :-) 14830 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 3:14pm Subject: Look out, my BRe: [dsg] Re: Vipallasa (i have different tabstops, so i massaged to make it line up for me...) > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D comments: 1) putujana makes perfect sense 2) arahant makes perfect sense 3) all 4 saint stages have ditthi (d) level of views perversion eradicated, which makes perfect sense and accords with the suttas. Beyond this, the rest of the chart makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to me. 1) anagami: 14831 From: frank kuan Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 3:38pm Subject: Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa (i have different tabstops, so i massaged to make it line up for me...) > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D comments: 1) putujana makes perfect sense 2) arahant makes perfect sense 3) all 4 saint stages have ditthi (d) level of views perversion eradicated, which makes perfect sense and accords with the suttas. Beyond this, the rest of the chart makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to me. 1) anagami: from the canonical qualitative description, we know that the difference between anagami and arhat is a very subtle feeling of "I am", and all desire of sensuality abandoned. So I would think that the chart would show the anatta column showing some remainder of vipallasa. But instead, not only for the anagami, but also for the stream enterer and once returner it shows all 3 types of vipallassa eradicated for anatta!!! What the .....???? This whole scheme of vipallasa and levels at sanna, citta, ditthi, when used to try to differentiate the 4 grades of sainthood seems to fall apart and make absolutely no sense. I mean, think about it. it's saying for all 4 grades of ssainthood, no wrong view of anatta, no wrong moment of citta, no wrong moment of perception arises. So please explain to me if one *sees* anatta at each moment, how the hell can erroneous views of dukkha, subha arise? If erroneous perception of dukkha arises, then anatta has DEFINITELY not been penetrated. End of story. Am I missing something here? Am I not understanding something? You all, except maybe gogler seem to think this all makes sense. Meanwhile, the needle just flew off my bullshit detector. Pardon my strong language. Despite my strong grasp of anatta, my misunderstanding of subha and dukkha seems to cause occasional outbursts of profanity. -fk 14832 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samatha and Vipassana Hi Erik, Hope you’re still there...;-) It’s always good to ‘hear’ you. --- rikpa21 wrote: > Nina is discussing anapansati in detail with Rob Ep and Larry and Rob K also got back to part of your well-written post. You ended with this paragraph: > Perhaps one helpful question to answer for oneself is, "how long can > it is possible to maintain unbroken mindfulness, even while > sitting?" If the answer is "for a few seconds" or even "for a few > minutes," then I submit there is a lot of bhavana needed before > mindfulness and concentration are well-enough established to arise > amidst daily activities, consistently, to the point they yield the > fruits of the Holy Path. I realize this is one opinion only, but it > is entirely consistent with what I've been taught and most > importantly, in experience (not pretending to have mindfulness in > all daily life situations though! Much bhavana needed for that > yet! :). ..... A few brief comments only: 1. When you came to Thailand, I remember you intended to study the Abhidhamma carefully. How does this idea of maintaining ‘unbroken mindfulness’ fit in with these studies? Please also look at comments on this in the following post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10681 2. In the suttas we read about the value of a ‘finger-snap’ of awareness and wholesome states. Isn’t it better to accept conditioned dhammas --whether kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya -- with equanimity rather than striving or trying to maintain ‘unbroken mindfulness’ with an idea of self and attachment for it? 3. When there is any concern or wishing for ‘fruits of the Holy Path’ it seems there isn’t any minfulness now. Life is very short -- just this moment. As you suggest, there is little mindfulness. There is also little understanding of mindfulness or the objects of mindfulness most the time. As we know, right understanding of namas and rupas is essential and it can only ever arise at the present moment. In what way are these realities any more real and any more likely to be objects of mindfulness at other specific times. It’s true there is a lot of ignorance, forgetfulness and other kilesa now. It takes courage (and good cheer) to face up to and accept what is conditioned already and to understand these dhammas as anatta. 4. What is the role of concentration? Is there an idea that self has to concentrate on an object such as breath? In what way is this wholesome and different from concentrating on any other object? Is there concentration now? Is there the idea that there should be more concentration? What is the present mind-state when we think like this? ***** Erik, meanwhile we look forward to seeing you very soon and hope that at an appropriate time you will give DSG an update on how you’re getting on and any happy news to share as you have many friends here;-) Sarah ===== 14833 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 5:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: past/future lives, was Noosa weekend Dear Azita, This question is a good topic. The sutta was about a monk who had studied Dhamma and reasoned that because laymen may still enjoy sexual relations - and at the same time attain stages of enlightenment - why then shouldn't monks be allowed such pleasures in their life. It is clever reasoning but not wise. Your example ""if I do something in this life knowing it > may benefit the being in the future, that is 'me'in > the future [ ooo- this sounds like atta] however I > have no way of knowing when, or even if, that result > will happen, but I know if there is a result[vipaka] > is may be pleasant. Can I have compassion for a being > that doesn't exist yet, but I'm fairly certain will > and 'I'm' doing something now to benefit that future > being? """ Knowing that doing good will bring good results in the future is part of kammasakata nana (knowledge of kamma and its results). A talk by A. Sujin on this http://www.dhammastudy.com/kammasakata.html There are many examples in the suttas of people doing good with the main aim of enjoying the pleasant results in the future. This is not ' grabbing the snake by the tail' but it is a limited view. It is not a parami when there are such aims; but it may be a parami if there is the understanding that these actions may contribute to rebirth in planes where the Dhamma can be heard and practiced. Even we have no wish for future benefits they will come because that is the way kamma works; especially, though, all kusala 'equips the mind for insight' the highest kusala. Robert --- azita gill <> wrote: > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > Dear Ken, > > There is also the > > Alagaddupama Sutta in the Majjhima nikaya (22)where > > it explains that > > learning the Dhamma wrongly is like catching a snake > > by the tail. > > One can study with the wrong motivations and > > actually increase mana > > and ditthi and tanha - and this applies to all of > > us. Again and > > again we should examine to see whether we are > > unknowingly trying to > > gain something for 'me'. This is a good sutta to > > discuss. > > Robert > 14834 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 7:30pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend Dear Robert K Thank you for this interesting information. Just one question at this early stage: You wrote: --------- > I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and considered deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not arise often (this is a coarse belief) but other levels do; depending on the degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > ----------- When you say it doesn't arise often, do you mean only once or twice per day or do you mean only once or twice per milli-second? Millions of paramattha dhammas come and go in the blink of an eye; I had assumed that there would be conditions for just about all of them to appear in that time, some in more significant proportions than others, of course. Have I picked up a wrong impression there? Kind regards Ken H --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --Dear Ken, > Thanks for your note. This is a hard subject and I know Nina or Kom > could explain more thoroughly. > In the paticcasamuppada wrong view is classifeied into there types: > Ditthupadanam, wrong view clinging > silabatupadanam , clinging to sila and rituals, wrong practice > Attavadupadanam , clinging to personality belief, self view. > > All of these are eliminated by sotapattimagga > > Under the vipallasa (perversions)atta vipallasa (perverted view of > self) is classified in three grades- ditthi , then citta, then > sanna. > Again all these are eradicated by sotapattimagga. > > I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and considered > deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not arise often ( > this is a coarse belief) but other levels do; depending on the > degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > And as soon as we start thinking "I understand not-self" there is > conceit - different from ditthi, but one of the papanca (prolongers > of samsara)- jumping in, boots and all. > > 14835 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 7:55pm Subject: Re: Noosa weekend --- Dear Ken, I'd like to hear what Nina says about this. The sotapanna has eliminated the four types of consciousness associated with ditthi (ditthigatasampayuttam)- these types of dhamma can never arise; but still has the four with ditthigatavippayuttam and these will keep arising very frequently. One thing I am not sure on is whether the atta vipallasa at the level of sanna and citta counts as 'ditthigatasampayuttam' citta. Probably it does and so for a non-ariyan this type of citta will still frequently arise. However, I think the vipallasa at the level of wrong view because it is so coarse is much less frequent for those who have considered correctly and deeply. Robert "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Robert K > > Thank you for this interesting information. Just one > question at this early stage: > > You wrote: > --------- > > I think for those who have heard a lot of Dhamma and > considered > deeply atta vipallasa at the level of ditthi does not > arise often (this is a coarse belief) but other levels > do; depending on the > degree, or lack thereof, of understanding. > > ----------- > > When you say it doesn't arise often, do you mean only > once or twice per day or do you mean only once or > twice per milli-second? > > Millions of paramattha dhammas come and go in the > blink of an eye; I had assumed that there would be > conditions for just about all of them to appear in > that time, some in more significant proportions than > others, of course. Have I picked up a wrong > impression there? > > Kind regards > Ken H > > > --- 14836 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa Hi Frank, I can't resist butting in to this thread.....(maybe it's the title;-)) --- frank kuan wrote: > > (i have different tabstops, so i massaged to make it > line up for me...) That’s funny - I tried giving it a ‘massage’ last time too - it looked fine on my screen (probably did on Kom’s too), but when it came back on the list, it looked like your massage version also;-) > > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha > > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D > > comments: > 1) putujana makes perfect sense > 2) arahant makes perfect sense > 3) all 4 saint stages have ditthi (d) level of views > perversion eradicated, which makes perfect sense and > accords with the suttas. ..... OK, good we’ll tick those off and look at all the fiddly ones in between;-) ..... > Beyond this, the rest of the chart makes ABSOLUTELY NO > SENSE to me. > 1) anagami: from the canonical qualitative > description, we know that the difference between > anagami and arhat is a very subtle feeling of "I am", > and all desire of sensuality abandoned. So I would > think that the chart would show the anatta column > showing some remainder of vipallasa. But instead, not > only for the anagami, but also for the stream enterer > and once returner it shows all 3 types of vipallassa > eradicated for anatta!!! What the .....???? ..... As I understand, at first stage of enlightenment (sotapanna), all idea and clinging to any idea of self is completely eradicated. There is no idea of “I am.”. It’s completely apparent that what is taken by the putujana’s thinking to be a self are only namas and rupas, only elements. The difference between the anagami and arahat, are some remaining very subtle cravings. There are no longer any cravings or attachment for sense objects, but subtle attachment for example to bhava (becoming)or to jhanic experience. (I forget what else).In other words, there is still sanna and citta vipallasa taking dukkha for sukha Of course there is thinking about ‘Frank’ or ‘Sarah’, but no subtle feeling of “I am” as you suggest. We can see what an extraordinary level of wisdom it is at even the sotapanna level. ...... > > This whole scheme of vipallasa and levels at sanna, > citta, ditthi, when used to try to differentiate the 4 > grades of sainthood seems to fall apart and make > absolutely no sense. ..... At the second stage (sakadagami), threre is still (subtle) attachment to sense objects and therefore the taking of the foul for beautiful (asubha for subha). For example, attachment to colours or tastes. As we know, lobha and dosa and moha have been greatly reduced at this stage. ..... > I mean, think about it. it's saying for all 4 grades > of ssainthood, no wrong view of anatta, no wrong > moment of citta, no wrong moment of perception arises. > So please explain to me if one *sees* anatta at each > moment, how the hell can erroneous views of dukkha, > subha arise? If erroneous perception of dukkha arises, > then anatta has DEFINITELY not been penetrated. End of > story. ..... ‘No wrong view of anatta’ does not mean ‘no wrong moment of citta’, if you’re meaning akusala citta (unwholesome) rather than citta with ditthi (wrong view). There can still be many, many moments of ignorance in a day and also attachment and aversion without any idea of self. This doesn’t mean there are ‘erroneous views of dukkha and subha’ (all wrong views eradicated), but clinging to the unsatisfactory and the foul, not appreciating at those moments that they are the undsatisfactory and the foul. Isn’t there attachment now to visible object? Most the time when there is this attachment there isn’t any ‘feeling of self’, just attachment to what’s seen. Of course, as soon as there’s a ‘story’ or ‘feeling’ as you describe, the erroneous idea of self is likely to creep back. ..... > Am I missing something here? Am I not understanding > something? You all, except maybe gogler seem to think > this all makes sense. Meanwhile, the needle just flew > off my bullshit detector. Pardon my strong language. > Despite my strong grasp of anatta, my misunderstanding > of subha and dukkha seems to cause occasional > outbursts of profanity. ..... Hmm....We’re watching;-) . This is why there are different classifications or ways of looking at realities, because sometimes different ones give new insights or perspectives....It really only makes a little sense to me because we discussed it earlier (you might like to check a couple of other posts on the topic in U.P) Let us know if this makes any more sense. Hope I’m not misleading you or confusing you further. Rob K or Kom may add more details. Sarah ===== 14837 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 9:52pm Subject: Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa --- Dear Frank, Just a point, the sotapanna still has mana, conceit, even though he has no view of self.... Different classifications such as the anusaya, the kilesa, the vipallasa help us to look at realities from different aspects Robert frank kuan wrote: > > (i have different tabstops, so i massaged to make it > line up for me...) > > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha > > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D > > comments: > 1) putujana makes perfect sense > 2) arahant makes perfect sense > 3) all 4 saint stages have ditthi (d) level of views > perversion eradicated, which makes perfect sense and > accords with the suttas. > > Beyond this, the rest of the chart makes ABSOLUTELY NO > SENSE to me. > 14838 From: Deanna Shakti Johnson <<>> Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 10:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meaning in Life Dear Christine, I too feel like you at times. I wonder if all this study at times in fact keeps one from really being in the moment. When I do feel this way at times I just relax into the space and go with what feels right - that to do nothing. I wonder if the point of life is to just allow it to happen. Sitting silently watching the grass grow? Shakti kenhowardau wrote:Christine, There is no obligation to discover the meaning of life. There is no need to `do worthwhile things.' There is only the present moment in which nama and rupa rise and fall away. Kind regards Ken H --- "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > The study of Abhidhamma helps to understand the real nature of > existence, so I'm told - I don't currently feel any closer to this > understanding; ... but, setting that aside, how does Abhidhamma > support the search for Meaning in life? It seems to me to have the > opposite effect - analyses any meaning out. Seems to emhasise the > fact that the whole thing is rather wearyingly pointless .... > Couldn't all this studying and discussion just be another way of > filling in the time until we die, the illusion of doing something > worthwhile - > > metta, > Christine 14839 From: robmoult Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 10:36pm Subject: Free Will Hi Robert (Kirkpatrick) and others, I was preparing my class on the Noble Eightfold Path by Reviewing Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on the subject: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html I came across the following passage, "As [mundane right view] affirms that people can choose their actions freely, within limits set by their conditions, it opposes the 'hard deterministic' line that our choices are always made subject to necessitation." This reminded me of a comment that you made a few days ago, "I want to add that negating freewill doesn't imply determinism". I want to stress again that I am not yet ready to enter into a discussion on the topic. I am, however, really looking forward to the discussion - it's gonna be really interesting! Perhaps as an appetizer, I would like to ask you to expand on your comment (just to whet my appetite and prepare my palate for the main course that is coming later). Thanks, Rob M :-) 14840 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 11:20pm Subject: Re: Free Will --- "robmoult" wrote: > > This reminded me of a comment that you made a few days ago, "I want > to add that negating freewill doesn't imply determinism". > Perhaps as an appetizer, I would like to ask you to expand on your > comment (just to whet my appetite and prepare my palate for the main > course that is coming later). ___________________________________ Dear RobM, I paste some comments I made in 2 old letters, they are a little off the point but I'm happy to add more anytime. Someone wrote to me a while back who feels that no control is a dangerous idea.They wanted to stress control and volitional intention which is what they believe that Buddha really taught and they feel uncontrollabilty to be a pernicious belief leading to apathy. "I have a choice whether to get angry in the present moment." the writer said."this is new kamma". I replied: Yes, the processes of cittas during anger are new kamma. However, they are also conditioned. The Patthana, the last and most important book of the Abhidhamma, goes into enormous detail about the 24 paccaya (conditions). Some of which are past and some present. But even the present ones do not simply arise out of nothing. Nor do they arise because "I" want them to. The processes of mind are happening at enormous speed and there is no "person" who can do anything to stop them or change them. Even the cittas that are arising at this moment are conditioned by previous cittas as well as well as by other conditions that are present at the same time. This is not the place to go into details but it is well worth studying the Patthana. It gives us a glimpse of the profundity of the path and the wisdom of the Buddha. They further wrote that "we are not just helpless automata acting out our old kamma - that is absurd. I hope the above helps overcome the despair that comes from the belief that we are a slave to our conditioning." I said "This sounds like the debates that western Philosophy used to have (and still does) about Free-will versus Determinism. The Buddha's analysis of the world is neither, it is the middle path. Thus the statement about "we being helpless automata acting out our old kamma" misses the point. There is no "we" to be anything. And kamma is not the only condition. Hearing the teachings of Buddhism - especially the deep teachings on anatta, are a condition for understanding. This understanding leads to energy: energy to hear more, and energy to carry on with the study and practice of vipassana. It leads to the type of determination that will gladly keep developing understanding moment after moment, life after life, aeon after aeon, no matter how long it takes. And if understanding grows then there will be detachment from the idea of self and of control. Then there is no more despair about the path - because "I" have been taken out of the equation. The "I" that we love so much, the "I" that we want to be happy, get enlightened , whatever. Then, as the Visuddhimagga says, 'there is a path but no one on the path'." This round of births and deaths is beginningless. However, it is not random in any sense. Because of conditions birth occurs in one plane and because of different conditions birth occurs in another plane. Panna (wisdom) is a conditioned phenomena and it is itself conditioned. What are the conditions for panna to develop : hearing the Dhamma, considering it, applying it and also accumulations of merit from the infinite past (pubekata punnata). Why are we so interested in Dhamma? Why isn't the leader of the Taliban interested; surely he makes effort, surely he has the intention to do what is best? Why do some people hear Dhamma but find it unappealing while others can't get enough even after hearing it just once? Why are some initially not interested and then later they get interested and surpass in understanding those who studied much longer? It is clear that there must be reasons for all this; and the Dhamma explains it all. You wrote "that's where i get stuck...if all dhammas except nibbana > are > conditioned (i'm going on saddha with this, of course), then > thinking one > can develop anything seems like an exercise in > micchaditthi.... _________________ Good point. I think it depends on the thinking. If we have the idea of "I can do it", then we are likely to be caught in self view. Or we think we can manufacture sati by effort or good intention - self. But there can be wisdom - not us- that sees the danger in samasara and thus there is naturally effort that arises with that understanding. It is subtle: often we slip into self view; either towards the freewill end of the continuum or towrds the fatalistic end that thinks nothing can be done. ____________________________ > > can the path be developed? or do we just leave it up to (for > lack of a > better f-word) "fate"? "" __________________ Fate implies a preordained outcome. In that case whether we did this that or the other nothing would make a thread of difference. We could go out and kill and pillage and nothing would have any effect and we would all get enlightened or not get enlightened depending on our "fate". This is not what the Buddha taught. He explained in detail many different conditions. It is true that some are past conditions but there are also present ones thus it is not fatalism. Both the idea of fatalism and the idea of freewill are bound up in self view - a self who can control and a self who can't. The Dhamma is the middle way and is neither. When we hear a teacher say "develop it" this can be a condition for either wrong effort or right effort. It depends on the understanding of the listener. Robert 14841 From: robmoult Date: Fri Aug 9, 2002 11:22pm Subject: Re: Free Will Oops, I did not give the complete quote from Bhikhu Bodhi, "As [mundane right view affirms that people can choose their actions freely, within limits set by their conditions, it opposes the 'hard deterministic' line that our choices are always made subject to necessitation, and hence that free volition is unreal and moral responsibility untenable." I interpret this as saying that "free volition" (free will?) is real. --- "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Robert (Kirkpatrick) and others, > > I was preparing my class on the Noble Eightfold Path by Reviewing > Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on the subject: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html > > I came across the following passage, "As [mundane right view] > affirms that people can choose their actions freely, within limits > set by their conditions, it opposes the 'hard deterministic' line > that our choices are always made subject to necessitation." > > This reminded me of a comment that you made a few days ago, "I want > to add that negating freewill doesn't imply determinism". > > I want to stress again that I am not yet ready to enter into a > discussion on the topic. I am, however, really looking forward to > the discussion - it's gonna be really interesting! > > Perhaps as an appetizer, I would like to ask you to expand on your > comment (just to whet my appetite and prepare my palate for the main > course that is coming later). > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 14842 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Look out, here comes a monumental rant Re: Vipallasa Hi Sarah, > saintliness Imperm Dukha Anatta Asubha Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X Yes, all are agreed that VIEWS (dithi) are eradicated for all stages of sainthood. The main problem I"m having is (according to the chart, and what Robert checked on teh translations) all 4 levels have Anatta penetrated at the aspects of S,C,D (perception, citta, dithi). So if citta antta is penetrated, and sanna anatta penetrated for ALL 4 STAGES, that to me sounds like complete enlightenement, complete understanding of anatta. One who has complete penetration of anatta is not going to be confused about dukkha and subha. Sarah, I understand from your explanation how whoever devised this vipallasa system uses it to try to explain the differnence between arhat and non-returner by showing how the subtle feeling of conceit present in the non-returner is in the subtle misperception of dukkha, and in a way that sort of makes sense, BUT: The 3 marks + subha are not independent mutually exclusive entities. Sanna, citta, do not arise independently of one another. You can not peg sainthood into these neat categories like someone trying to complete a baseball card collection by checking off independent pieces. Every moment of reality does not consist of independent pieces of anicca, dukkha, anatta that need to be understood separately. It's all just different aspects of the same moment of reality. If you completely penetrate the nature of anatta, you've also completely penetrated dukkha and anicca. ^ the above paragraph is my diplomatic way of saying the vipallasa system is completely lame and misleading. It seems like a feeble attempt to break down the concept of wisdom and quantify it in terms of more constituent basic units, but instead it just confounds. It's times like this I seriously wonder if abidhamma is legitimate buddhism. It seems like they try to break things down into minute detail to deepen understanding, but then are forced to construct even more detail and more awkward nuances in an attempt to explain away logical inconsistencies. -fk 14843 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of Breathing, hindrances and concentration. Dear Larry, perception, citta and pa~n~naa are nama, they are elements which know, but what and how they know is different in each case. The next para about the simile of the coins may be easier: Vis XIV, 4,5. Perception is like a child who sees the coin, but it does not know more about it. Citta is like the villager who knows more, he knows the value. Panna is like the money changer who knows all the details of the coins. This simile is used only to show that panna is "knowing in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving and cognizing". We should not draw wrong conclusions when we read under citta that it reaches the penetration of the characteristics of the coin. Here is not meant the three charactreistics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta that can only be known by panna. The simile could mislead one. op 07-08-2002 04:42 schreef <> op <>: > Visuddhimagga XIV, 2: > > In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (panna) in the > sense of act of understanding (pajanana). What is this act of > understanding? It is knowing (janana) in a particular mode separate from > the modes of perceiving (sanjanana) and cognizing (vijanana). > > Larry: I take this to mean that consciousness without a lot of wisdom is > capable of penetrating the three characteristics, anicca, dukkha, > anatta. And, as the second stage of the path of purification is called > citta-visuddhi, I therefore think during this _stage_ (if not actually > while immersed in jhana) the three characteristics are penetrated. N: as explained above, only panna can. Panna which has been developed through reaching all stages of insight knowledge. There is no other way. L: Beyond that, and to the question whether ordinary people like us can > experience jhana, I must confess I have a new understanding. Previously > I mistakenly thought samatha was synonymous with samadhi; it is actually > synonymous with jhana. Samadhi is just focus. So whether there is > tranquility or jhana is just a matter of degree. And considering that we > abhidhammikas regard even the briefest moment as significant, I think it > is not unlikely that all of us has experienced jhana occasionally. N: There are the different notions of samadhi, samatha and jhana we should study. The Buddhist Dictionary can help, but not in each case. Samadhi, one-pointedness, can be right concentration or wrong concentration, depending on what citta it accompanies. Samatha: tranquillity. How and when is there samatha? When kusala citta arises, because at that moment one is free from akusala and that is calm. When we are generous, there is calm, but such moments are so short. Seeing and hearing also arise, and, very often subtle clinging follows the sense impressions, but we do not notice this. It is panna which can realize this. Samatha bhavana, the development of calm. There are specific objects which can condition more calm, such as metta, recollection of the Triple Gem, which includes Recollection of the Dhamma. Also when there is mindfulness and understanding of the characteristics of the realities that appear now, there is calm. There is calm or samatha in vipassana. Samatha can be used as a synonym of samadhi, the dictionary tells us. When we read about concentration, we should also think of calm which goes together with it. When someone is interested in his meditation subject, for example, recollection of the Dhamma, there are conditions for being concentrated on it without forcing or too much effort, concentration arises naturally because of conditions. Then, we can check, there is also calm. Now in samatha, as samadhi is developed, there is: preparatory concentration, access concentration and attainment concentration or jhana. As these stages are progressively reached, calm also grows. Thus we cannot say that samadhi is synonymous with jhana as you see here. There are degrees. Samadhi is not just focussing. The Buddha did not teach to , to , he taught understanding. There has to be understanding in samatha. Lobha may lure us, and really, it must be difficult to discern when there is lobha, and when there is pure kusala citta. Strong panna and sati are essential. Is jhana some state all of us experience occasionally, as you suggest? Is it occasionally or after careful preparation, observing all conditions? See the Visuddhimagga. There is another notion we should go into: satipatthana. As mentioned before in this forum, it has three meanings: 1. the object of sati and panna, and these are classified as the four Applications of Mindfulness (in some translations: confections). These objects are whatever nama or rupa appears one at a time through one of the six doorways. If we read about the four Applications without understanding of ultimate realities misunderstandings will arise. All objects are classified among these four Applications. No matter whether we read about hairs of the head, the four postures, breath, all these subjects can remind us to be aware now. We do not have to name any Application or believe that one day we should be aware of rupas, one day of feelings. Sound may appear now, it is only a rupa appearing through the ears. The next moment there may be unpleasant feeling on account of what is heard. Or there may be mindfulness of hearing, which is different from sound, then there is mindfulness of citta. How fast objects can change. Recently I heard a tape where A. Sujin explained: we may read about the Dhamma a great deal, but we should understand this word: dhamma. It is a reality that appears. When is it true? Now, when it appears. Know the dhamma that appears, as only a dhamma. If we do not grasp this, we shall have misunderstandings of the object of satipatthana. 2. sati of satipatthana, different from sati of dana or sati of sila. It is sati sampajanna, sati and panna:awareness and the development of understanding of a characteristic of a nama or of a rupa that appears now. 3. It is the Way the Buddha and the ariyans went leading to the goal: the end of dukkha. We read and hear about the development of satipatthana: it is actually the same as the development of vipassana or the development of the eightfold Path: it all amounts to the development of right understanding of nama and rupa now. The foregoing can be of use when we, later on, deal with the anapana sati that brings to fulfillment the four Applications of Mindfulness. We should know the meaning of all those words. If we do not study Abhidhamma we may read the suttas with a notion of self who is doing a special practice and making an effort to practise. Whereas in reality there are only paramattha dhammas arising because of condiitons. As I heard on the tape: when sati is aware there must be paramattha dhammas that appear so that we know that these characteristics are not self. Without the study of the Abhidhamma we do not understand the noble Truth of dukkha: the arising and falling away, impermanence, must be a characteristic of a paramattha dhamma. What is impermanent is dukkha. Larry: Finally, I think there is a good reason to practice jhana. That reason > is dukkha. Jhana is a proximate cause for panna but it is also a > pleasant retreat from dukkha. Even panna can sometimes get to be ~too > much~. Nina: If one wants to attain jhana, as I said before, one should be prepared to live . See all the preparations that are necessary. We cannot escape dukkha so long as we are trapped by lobha and other defilements. And we have to know the meaning of the noble Truth of dukkha (see above). Do we want to gain something for ourselves? It is better to know when we are trapped than not to know. That is the beginning of panna. Rob K. handed me a treasure when he wrote to Ken: