15400 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Time for a change (a long post) Hi Howard, Publisher is Buddhist Cultural Centre, 125 Anderson Road, Nedimala, Dehiwala, Sri Lanka. Tel 71-4256 Fax 72-6737. I paid Rs160 (US$1.67) for the book. It is soft cover, 110 pages (including index). ISBN 955-9219-06-5. Originally written in 1958, the second edition was printed in 1994. Howard, I would be pleased to photocopy the book and send it to you. Please send your snail mail address to me at rob.moult@j... So Howard, do you support this change or not? Thanks, Rob M :-) PS: If others would like a photocopy of this book, please advise so I can get the copying done at one time. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > I consider this post of yours to be important enough for me to save. > Thank you. I would very much appreciate a fuller reference for the book > "Buddhist Psychology of Perception" by E. Sarachchandra, M.A., Ph.D., D. > Litt., Chancellor, University of > Peradeniya, Sri Lanka. In particular, I would like the date, publisher, and > the ISBN, and I would also like to know the price of the book. Is there a pbk > edition, or only hardcover? > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 9/2/02 2:02:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... > writes: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am reading a book, "Buddhist Psychology of Perception" by E. > > Sarachchandra, M.A., Ph.D., D. Litt., Chancellor, University of > > Peradeniya, Sri Lanka. Actually, the book was his thesis submitted > > to the University of London for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy. > > A little light reading :-) The book has three sections: "Theories of > > Perception in the Nikayas", "Perception in the Abhidhamma" > > and "Theory of Bhavanga". > > > > Here is a quote from the book, "The results of the investigations > > embodied in the Nikayas were made use of by the schoolmen of the > > fifth century for the formulation of a theory of perception which, > > while being faithful as far as possible to the views of early > > Buddhism, attempted also to fill in the gaps that were left by it. > > The theory is quite unique in the history of Indian thought, and it > > was probably the work of Buddhaghosa after having immersed himself > > in Sanskrit philosophy. There are in it unmistakeable signs of the > > influence of the theories of perception that were current in the > > schools of Indian philosophy and the schools of Mahayana Buddhism. > > Whenever borrowings were made, however, they were modified and > > adapted so as to be in keeping with the ideology of Theravada > > Buddhism." > > > > There is a chapter of the book titled, "Developments in the Twelfth > > Century", where the theory of moments was introduced into the > > Abhidhamma, to merge/adapt/refute positions of the Yogacara and > > Sautrantika schools which also had developed similar theories at > > that time. Later, the book spent some time explaining the parallels > > and differences between bhavanga and the Alaya Vijnana of the > > Yogacara school. > > > > As I delve into the details of the thought process in preparation > > for my class, I come to the conclusion that if I want anything more > > than a very simple overview, I am wandering into the realm > > of "speculative theories" put forth by philosophers. The > > philosophers can't agree; there is a different view of the > > importance of the registration citta as explained in the Visuddhi > > Magga (early concept; registration is an exceptional case, rarely > > occurring), the Abhidhammatthasangaha (late concept; registration > > occurs in most thoughts) and the Atthasalini (wavers between early > > and late concepts). I even find that some of the "simple overview" > > was added later into the Abhidhamma and is not clearly supported in > > the Suttas. For example, it appears as though the registration citta > > was introduced by Buddhaghosa. In brief, I am starting to lose faith > > in the accuracy and authenticity of the Abhidhamma. > > > > Here is another quote from the book, "... the Abhidhamma does not > > make any attempt to explain the phenomenon of memory, for, having > > postulated process without substance, they were without any known > > equipment for explaining it, and were obliged to merely recognize it > > as a fact." Why is it that the Abhidhamma does not give a clear > > description on the function of memory? I think that memory is a very > > important topic that deserves a detailed explanation. > > > > The beginning few paragraphs of the final chapter, "Philosophical > > Basis of the Buddhist Theory of Perception", gives some comfort (to > > me, at least): > > > > ===== > > > > As far as the early texts reveal, the Buddha's examination of mental > > phenomena was undertaken with a purely practical end in view. His > > immediate environment suggested to him the expediency of arriving at > > a practical solution to the problem of pain. There was theorizing > > and speculation around him ad nauseam. The very failure of these > > theoretical methods to arrive at and advocate a satisfactory > > solution to the problem would have emphasized the immediate need for > > a method that would, at least as far as the individual was > > concerned, same him from the inner unrest that was tormenting him. > > No sensitive soul could remain untouched by the pervading chaos and > > disintegration of values. > > > > What the Buddha advocated was that each individual should retreat > > from the battleground and seek to gain his own inward happiness. Let > > the wranglers go on abusing one another and demonstrating their > > several theories with the help of logic. What finality was there in > > this method of logical demonstration? The theory that one of them > > held to be true and irrefutable, the other proved to be false by > > equally convincing arguments (Yam ahu saccam tathiyam ti eke, Tam > > ahu anne tuccham musa ti - Sutta Nipata 883). The alternatives, > > surely were either that all of these contradictory views were > > correct or that they were all false. It is impossible to accept the > > first alternative, for there cannot be several truths in the world > > (Ekam hi saccam na dutiyam atthi - Ibid 884). We are driven to the > > conclusion, therefore, that they are all false, and that some method > > other than logical demonstration must be found to help us in the > > search for truth. > > > > ===== > > > > As a young teenager, I started reading Descartes, Kant and a number > > of other Western Philosophers. At first, I was impressed by the > > skill of their arguments, but then I became disillusioned. These > > were the greatest minds produced by the Western World and they could > > not agree! I postulated that either there was no solution (I did not > > want to accept this) or that they had all taken a wrong turn out of > > the starting gate. My conclusion was that the use of logical > > arguments was somehow the wrong tool for philosophers. For > > example "X" = "cup is on the table" "NOT X" = "the cup is not on the > > table". The intersection of "X" and "NOT X" is the null set. In > > other words, "the cup cannot be both on the table and not on the > > table". The fallacy is that this statement, developed through > > symbolic logic, is only true at one instant in time. The questions > > being asked by philosophers are outside the domain of time and > > therefore logic (at least symbolic logic) is not an appropriate tool > > to deal with philosophical questions. I gave up reading philosophy > > (Wittgenstein did me in) and spent a few years developing "my own" > > philosophy. I thought long and hard about this. > > > > Later, when I was 19 and had a girlfriend whose father was a > > Christian minister. We were sitting around the campfire at their > > cottage one night and her father (the father) asked me about my > > views on religion. I explained that I had been brought up Christian > > but had developed my "own philosophy" over the past few years. He > > was open-minded and asked me to explain my "own philosophy". I had > > never verbalized it before and I talked solidly for two hours. The > > father listened respectfully, asking questions and clarifications > > where appropriate. When it was over, he said to me, "To become a > > minister, you have to take a course on comparative religions. What > > you have described over the past two hours is Buddhism." I was > > shocked! I had never read anything about Buddhism and I found it > > difficult to believe that "on my own" I had come up with one of the > > world's major religions! Later I realized that I had been a Buddhist > > in a previous life and it started to make sense. > > > > So here I am, twenty-five years later facing similar challenges with > > the Abhidhamma as I faced with the western philosophers as a > > teenager. Fortunately, the next few paragraphs in the last section > > of the book I am reading give some guidance: > > > > ===== > > > > One thing noticeable about the argumentations of these clever > > philosophers is that they are by no means salutary to the attainment > > of happiness which, in the last resort, should constitute their > > ultimate aim. One philosopher calls the other a fool, and the other > > retorts with the same term of abuse. If they were both correct, > > either they should both be fools or they should both be wise men and > > there should be no fools at all among the religieux (Parassa ce hi > > vacasa nihino, Tumo saha hoti nihinapanno, atha ce sayam vedagu hoti > > dhiro, na koci balo samanesu atthi - Sutta Nipata 890). Besides, > > these arguments engender passion and lead to a considerable amount > > of heart-breaking. The sad fact about them is, therefore, that they > > defeat their own purpose. > > > > Consequently we might suspect that there is something inherently > > wrong in the very premises from which these arguments start. On > > examination, they are all seen to rest on three things, dittha, suta > > and muta, that is, things seen, heard and cogitated. These three > > things belong to the sphere of sense perception, the sphere of > > discursive reasoning (sanna). Multiplicity of views is the natural > > result of dependence on sense knowledge (Na h'eva saccani bahuni > > nana, annatra sannaya niccani loke - Ibid 886) Logical reasoning > > leads to an inevitable dualism of thought. One is driven to the > > correlatives of truth and falsehood. Only these two alternatives are > > open to the way of logic (Takkan ca ditthisu pakappayitva, saccam > > musa ti dvayadhammam ahu - Ibid 886). > > > > How is one to escape from this vicious circle? It is here that > > introspective analysis helps us. Every form of mental activity is > > seen to lead to our attainment of a kind of knowledge which does not > > satisfy in the last resort. The polarities (dvandva) of happiness > > and sorrow (sukha, dukkha), pleasure and unpleasure (piya, appiya), > > attraction and repulsion (raga, dosa) agreeability and > > disagreeability (satam, asatam) are ultimately seen to rest on sense > > impression (Phassanidanam satam asatam - Ibid 870). Our notion of > > the diversity of external nature is derived from the sphere of the > > senses. All these polarities of thought and feeling lead to conflict > > and strife (kalahavivada), to rancour and pride (manamacchariya). > > > > ===== > > > > I have come to the conclusion that if I were to have the opportunity > > to meet the Buddha and ask about the detailed functions of the > > thoughts in the thought process, the Buddha would answer me as he > > answered Malunkyupatta, "If a man who is pierced by a poison arrow, > > refuses to allow the surgeon to remove the arrow until he is told > > the name, height, etc. of the archer, he would die before learning > > the answers to all of his questions." > > > > My view on the Abhidhamma has changed. No longer is it a subject > > worthy of study for its own sake, nor is it accurate in all > > respects. The Abhidhamma is, however, an excellent structure to help > > study and understand the Dhamma as laid out the Suttas. > > > > I will continue to teach Abhidhamma each Sunday morning. I will > > focus even more on the practical aspects of the teaching rather than > > the theoretical side (focusing on the practical has been my habit > > and style, anyway). I will put more focus on the Suttas. I will > > deliver my lecture on "Inside the Thought Process" on September 15, > > but my focus will using the structure of the thought process to be > > able to cover all seven neutral universal cetasikas and all six > > neutral occasional cetasikas in one class. Yes, the lecture will be > > almost purely theory (how to make a neutral cetasika "practical"?), > > but covering thirteen cetasikas in one class is not bad. > > > > This has been an extremely long post. I feel that my direction is > > shifted a little bit away from the Abhidhamma as a subject of study > > and more to the Suttas as a subject of study (using the Abhidhamma > > as a structure and to provide some background details). This is new > > territory for me and I'm not sure where it will lead. > > > > I would be interested in feedback from others either supporting or > > not supporting this shift in focus (with your reasons, of course). > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 15401 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the noumenal world Hi, Jim - In a message dated 9/2/02 6:08:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > > Dear members, > > I'm not really all that familiar with many of the philosophical terms > used by Western philosophers. I know that 'noumenon' is one of them > and when Howard was asking those tough questions about naama and > nibbaana, I wondered if there was a connection between 'naama' and > 'noumenon'. Not knowing what 'noumenon' meant I had to look it up in a > couple of dictionaries but as it turns out it doesn't have the meaning > I was banking on. At one point I was even thinking of a similar > parallel between ruupa and phenomenon but I have now dropped those > ideas. > > What I found most interesting, however, was Kant's definition of the > phenomenonal world vs the noumenal world which seem in my mind to > relate quite well to the conventional and the real world of the > Buddhist teachings. Here are the definitions given in D.D. Runes' > Dictionary of Philosophy: > > Phenomenal World: The world of appearance as opposed to the world > as-it-is-in-itself. The only world we know, said Kant, is the > world-we-know, (appearance). The real world is beyond our > knowledge. -- p. 231 > > Noumenal World: The real world as opposed to the appearance world. > Kant said of the noumenal realm that it cannot be known. -- p. 215 > > The main difference being that the Buddhist would argue that the > noumenal world can, in fact, be known through the higher > understanding. I think what the Abhidhamma may be doing is describing > this noumenal or real world. > > There is also this interesting comment in the article on Noumenon: > > In his [Kant's] practical philosophy, however, the postulation of a > noumenal realm is necessary in order to explain the possibility of > freedom. -- p. 215 > > Best wishes, > > Jim > ============================ Thanks for this interesting post. Theravada doesn't seem to allow much thought in this direction. Mahayana is more "willing". The perspective there, at least in the Madhyamika school of Nagarjuna, tends to identify noumenon with phenomenon, seeing the noumenal realm as not intrinsically different from the world of phenomena, but rather as identical with the phenomenal realm "rightly seen", which amounts to a nondual seeing of interdependent conditions which are not self-existing, but are merely aspects of an interconnected whole. I just wrote a post to Dhamma List along these lines, a part of which, slightly modified, is the following: *************************** Some people take the position that nibbana is the absence of all conditions as separate things. This position is that seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, and cognizing, and the seen, heard, touched, and cognized are not *absolutely* gone in nibbana, but are gone as separate entities - that what remains is what the defiled mind currently misperceives as separate conditions - what remains is what there is when avijja is removed, and, therefore what there always really was. In a sense, this nibbana is always present, but, in the worldling, and to some extent in the lesser ariyans, is obscured by defilements, hidden by avijja. This perspective is, perhaps, another way of pointing towards the far shore. *************************** Vi~n~nana, as I understand it, is a separative knowing, a separating out of an object from a vast, interconnected field of possibilities. This is a kind of special knowing - one which arises in dependence on kamma (and avijja). With the cessation of ignorance, and the consequent cessation of kamma, there is the cessation of vi~n~nana, leaving that "noumenon" which was actually there to begin with, but misperceived. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15402 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 0:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Time for a change (a long post) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/2/02 7:15:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Publisher is Buddhist Cultural Centre, 125 Anderson Road, Nedimala, > Dehiwala, Sri Lanka. Tel 71-4256 Fax 72-6737. I paid Rs160 (US$1.67) > for the book. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Wow, that is inexpensive! ----------------------------------------------------- It is soft cover, 110 pages (including index). ISBN > > 955-9219-06-5. Originally written in 1958, the second edition was > printed in 1994. > > Howard, I would be pleased to photocopy the book and send it to you. > Please send your snail mail address to me at rob.moult@j... > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That would be wonderful, except I wonder if that would not be a copyright violation. If the Buddhist Cultural Centre has no objection, I would love to have a photocopy mailed to me. Would there be a way for you to easily check on that? If yes, and there is no problem, I will gratefully (and speedily) send you my address. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > So Howard, do you support this change or not? > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I am reluctant to comment definitively on that, Rob. As you and others may have realized, I have serious reservations about parts of Abhidhamma and also about its origins. However, I also see enormous value in it. I don't think that my take on this is of any particular importance. This decision is a personal one for you to make. All I will commit myself to is that it always makes sense to analyze and evaluate as best as one can, and also to avoid extremes when possible. --------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > PS: If others would like a photocopy of this book, please advise so > I can get the copying done at one time. > > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15403 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Hi Howard, k: As what you said that one's predispositions depend on ones factor, that is why I am incline to discourage pple to write their own opinion even if one best shot rather than facts from the sutta and commentaries in well read or any publication. It could lead to distortion of the truth. Opinion should be confined to our own consumption or healthy discussion confining to ones circle of friends and let it be known that is our own opinion esp during this age of the dhamma. kind rgds Ong KC > This, of course, makes great sense. However, > we should also realize > that comparing the teaching to the directly taught > Dhamma is still > subjective. How one understands/interprets the > original teachings is not > entirely objective, but is a function of one's > background knowledge, one's > meditative experience, one's thinking, and, most > perilously, one's > predispositions. > So, all that one can do is "take your best > shot". As far as the > correctness of one's views, one's interpretations, > and even one's practice > are concerned, the old pragmatic adage, "The proof > of the pudding is in the > eating", probably applies. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A > star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, > a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > Sutra) > > > > 15404 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 5:25pm Subject: Re: Time for a change (a long post) Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That would be wonderful, except I wonder if that would not be a > copyright violation. If the Buddhist Cultural Centre has no objection, I > would love to have a photocopy mailed to me. Would there be a way for you to > easily check on that? If yes, and there is no problem, I will gratefully (and > speedily) send you my address. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Oops, you are correct about the copyright laws, though I'm not sure how much money they make on $1.67 :-). Here is their web-site where you can contact them and order books: http://www.buddhistcc.com/bookshop/index.html Thanks, Rob M :-) 15405 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 5:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Kom, here's a few comments: K: "Just like lobha is not conceptual, panna is not conceptual." L: Sorry, I think lobha is also conceptual, actually mis-conceptual, pervaded by miccha ditthi conceiving a self and other. I don't think we can separate concept and reality in ordinary experience. K: "But why do you think Satipatthana leads to detachment?" L: I tried to answer this with my own experience and got in a lot of trouble. Do you not think satipatthana leads to detachment? If not, what is it for? K: "What else do you think satipathana leads to that panna doesn't?" L: Satipatthana leads to present experience but panna doesn't necessarily. The upatthana of satipatthana is present moment; so satipatthana's object is necessarily present experience. Because of that satipatthana's panna is short and succinct. Whereas right view panna could be a whole book, like the Visuddhimagga. K: "Some think vipassana development is not possible / is too hard to do with out jhana development, and some don't. What's your take on this?" L: I think insight happens because of accumulations. Meditation practice seems to be a good thing to accumulate. K: "What exactly is vipassana development?" L: Satipatthana, many ideas on the best way to teach this. Almost all involve some sort of discipline as opposed to a casual approach. K: "I don't think she views (as evident by what all her students say!) Satipatthana the same way as popularly viewed by others. The more important question (I think) is whether or not what she (or anybody else) teaches matches what the Buddha has taught." L: I would be interested in reading what you and Sarah and Jon and Nina and Robert K (or any other of A. Sujin's students) think is the best way to practice satipatthana. Larry 15406 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 6:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Anatta? Hi Rob Ep > > Oh I agree. The question is, can you perceive the > anatta-nature of oneself? k: Rob, this is an extremely difficult question and is a novel one too. Honestly speaking I don't know but I speculate that one should reach at least the level of stream entrant before we could see a glimspe of it. Assuming if we could see it, I don't think we could describe it either to the human level of understanding, just like we try to explain the taste of sweet to a computer with current technology. > I think some on dsg have argued that you can't see the anatta-ness of oneself, because one cannot look at something that doesn't exist [oneself] as an object and > perceive its nature; at least that's the way I > understand it. They would > therefore say, again as I understand it [and ready > to be corrected] that one can > only gain panna towards the anatta of a dhamma - an > object - and by doing so, one > gets rid of attachement to the things of this world > and this life as 'oneself'. I > think that one would see the 'anatta' or 'non-self' > of oneself as being a concept, > perhaps a wise concept, but a concept none-the-less. > > Now I have had the experience which for me at least > seemed like a strong insight > experience, of looking back at my own thoughts, > feelings, etc. and realizing that > there was no 'self' to be found in any of that, that > the awareness by which I was > 'looking within' was impersonal and there was no > 'Robert' present in any of that. > To me that experience was one of seeing that the > presumption of self was a > concept; and to me, that seems like a realization of > 'anatta' on the personal > level. In other words, by directly seeing that > there is not 'self' within, one > realizes the anatta-nature of the presumed self. > But what does one actually > perceive in such a moment? Is it a direct > perception of something, or is it a > concept? I am not sure how to evaluate that, but in > the moment that it happened > it was a very liberating shock to the system. k: To me the experience of Not being there is a very exhilarating experience and hard to describe, it also feel like we are boundless, a sense of total freedom. But is it the real perception of anatta, that is something I do not know. >Then one can witness the arising of various things in the moment without overlaying it all the time with a sense of 'someone perceiving it'. But I am not sure how to > define that experience in terms > of namas and rupas, in terms of which we could > discuss it here on dsg, because it > is the perception of something that one thought was > there NOT being there; it is > the removal of a concept; but how is that perceived > without another concept that > notices and compares the absence? Or are there > mental factors that can account > for this kind of change within a particular citta? k: As one goes deeper into mindfulness and developing more right understanding of impermanence, this witnessing will arise. This is what I called "living in the moment", a moment without any form of prejudice or self or views attched, Some pple called it seeing things as it is. What are the technicality on what citta process involved, that I really do not know. > I think the Vedas are pretty good in most > departments and I don't think they > borrowed from Buddhism. I'm pretty sure they > pre-date the teachings of the > Buddha. The point is that they do deal with > non-clinging to objects and self; and > they do deal with the impermanence of the body and > self-concept. The primary > difference between most Hindu teachings and Buddhism > is that Hinduism still > postulates a soul or Atman which is an inner self or > higher self; a spiritual self > that replaces the lower psychophysical self; while > Buddhism says that the > structures of the psychophysical self do not > constitute a true self or entity; but > there is no 'higher' or 'inner' self to replace it; > instead there is just the > arising of consciousness within the structures of > living and the relinquishment of > that in the realization of Nibbana. > > Then within Buddhism you have the arguments about > what the Enlightened experience > is like WITHOUT a higher or inner self, and what the > implications are of > dis-identifying with the khandas and storehouse > consciousness when there is no > self left over of any kind. Some schools of > Buddhism will argue that there is a > primal nature that takes the place of the > self-concept and is discovered; or which > can be called Buddha-nature as one's true self. Or > that there is a primal > awareness which is shown to be impersonal and not > contained by the khandas, which > tends to be my point of view. But in Theravada most > schools I think tend towards > the self being a false construct and there really > being nothing to take its place > except the experience of living itself which arises > impersonally without a self > and is fully realized as such in Enlightenment. k: Some school of thought equate Nibbana as the true nature of one self, or Greater Mind. But at that time such thoughts have already manifest in various teachings in India. As we know that Buddha rejects the idea of atman, then how could we equate Nibbana as the Greater Mind or true nature. To me there is a danger to equate or describe Nibbana as the Greater Mind or true nature of one self because it generates another "self" to be obtained. Then what is Nibbana, dont asked me. It can't be describe or equate as even Buddha has diffcuitly describing Nibbana to us. > It's not a matter of blaming external things, but seeing that one > is attached to > them. One has to, as you say, acknowledge that the attachment is > one's own, not > the objects, but what is it that we attach this clinging to? > Whatever it is, we > have to let go of it, don't we? When we let go, it is 'our' > clinging that we let > go of, but it is always attached to an object of some kind, whether > a 'big > important' object like our own body, or the presence of a loved > one, or just to > food and sex, or a favorite habit. Can you think of a clinging > that doesn't have > an object? We can even be attached to enlightenment, and I bet > everyone here has > that problem! :0 > k: that is a real problem, we could even attached to enlightment. Can I think of a clinging that doesn't have an object? No. If I remember correctly, one clings till the third stage of Arahat, only the last stage of Arahat then the clinging problem will be solved. > > Because I am? Why have a choice? I AM reading the dsg mails when > I read them, > and at that time, I can't really choose not to. It seems that I > read when I read > and I stop when I stop. Sometimes I want to stop and can't!!! : / k: hmm lobha is a very strong paccaya for cetana:). > Maybe > > I should said there is no such thing as free will but > > there is such a thing as the power of choice/volition. > > I like volition better than choice, because volition has the sense > of being something that arises in conciousness and has energy. I can imagine volition just coming up out of causal factors, whereas choice to me definitely implies that there is a self, a someone, making that choice. And that is the opposite of anatta, as far as I can tell. k: I should have used volition in the first instance rather than choice :). kind regards KC (= Ken O) 15407 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Speech and Intentions was (Re: Updated Class Notes Now On-Line) Hi Rob M > > Again, P.13 of Class Notes indicates the "class" of beings (see > remarks under "killing"). "Large animals more serious than small > animals, humans more serious than animals. Virtuous being more > serious than non-virtuous being." > k: Where do you get these references? kind regards kc 15408 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 7:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Time for a change (a long post) Dear Rob, All I can say is "been there, done that". My conclusion is I don't know enough to quit, so I'm staying the course. I've learned more about the dhamma through abhidhamma study than any other way. If you are like me, what you have right now is an attitude problem. Attitude changes from moment to moment, day to day. You could look at this attitude as it arises and recognize it as an impermanent phenomenon, "not me". Everyone changes all the time, but I hope you will stay with abhidhamma. You have made an excellent contribution to this group and I bet you would be surprised at the difference you have made to your students. People can get sutta study anywhere, but abhidhamma study is rare. If it doesn't provide you with an answer to every question that pops into your head, maybe you need to rest the head. This stuff is deeper than deep. Let it work on you. best wishes, Larry 15409 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/2/02 8:12:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > k: As what you said that one's predispositions depend > on ones factor, that is why I am incline to discourage > pple to write their own opinion even if one best shot > rather than facts from the sutta and commentaries in > well read or any publication. It could lead to > distortion of the truth. Opinion should be confined > to our own consumption or healthy discussion confining > to ones circle of friends and let it be known that is > our own opinion esp during this age of the dhamma. > > > kind rgds > Ong KC > ========================== I understand your point. I generally make it a point to indicate that what is only my opinion is, indeed, just that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15410 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 9:05pm Subject: [dsg] Speech and Intentions was (Re: Updated Class Notes Now On-Line) Hi Kenneth, Am on the road now; I will check which commentary they came from when I return home on the weekend. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Rob M > > > > > Again, P.13 of Class Notes indicates the "class" of beings (see > > remarks under "killing"). "Large animals more serious than small > > animals, humans more serious than animals. Virtuous being more > > serious than non-virtuous being." > > > > k: Where do you get these references? > > > kind regards > kc > 15411 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Re: Time for a change (a long post) Hello Howard, I have this book and will be glad to loan it to you if the copyright thing is seen as a problem. I had great difficulty reading it, never getting beyond the first 15 pages or so, do to the large number of untranslated Pali footnotes (and one passage in the text, as I recall). Perhaps I can do a bit better now than a few years ago. I'd be way glad to loan it if it came back with translations! metta, stephen 15412 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 9:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Time for a change (a long post) Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Everyone changes all the time, but I hope you will stay with abhidhamma. I will definitely stay with the Abhidhamma, because, like you, I find it an excellent way to learn the Dhamma. What will change is my focus; less on the technical aspects of Abhidhamma and more on the practial aspects of the Abhidhamma (and the Dhamma). No disillusionment, just a shift in approach. Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. Thanks, Rob M :-) 15413 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1) Hi Larry & All, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > [Note: The final two chapters of ADL have been revised and are viewable > on the web only at the Zolag site. So with Christine's help I will post > these last two chapters from the final version. Due to peculiarities of > the transmission I have had to guess where to end paragraphs. Also, > diacritical marks were transmitted which I haven't eased. These may > misprint in your system. ..... It came out fine in my system ..... Many, many thanks to Binh Anson and Robert > Kirkpatrick for making this invaluable work available on their web > sites.] > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ ..... Likewise. Many thanks to you too, Larry for your hard anc consistent work for the ADL corner. I've benefitted a lot by considering more carefully. Maybe we need to start at the beginning again;-) Just kidding. Do you have any plans or suggestions for the next study corner? Perhaps we'll need a break to finish digesting ADL first. How about B.Bodhi's Abhidhamattha Sangaha? Rob M could then introduce any disparities he finds with other Tipitaka texts or commentaries and notes from other translations can be considered too. (Not sure we'd ever finish mind you - guess it would depend on Num's scheduling). If it's considered too long, we could use another one of Nina's books on line, eg Cetasikas or Nyantiloka's Buddhist Dictionary or any other text we mostly like. Sarah ===== 15414 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 10:43pm Subject: Re: Four Sublime States Dear Kom, Rob M and all, My favorite quote is: "Noble and sublime joy is not foreign to the Teaching of the Enlightened One. Wrongly the Buddha's Teaching is sometimes considered to be a doctrine diffusing melancholy. Far from it: the Dhamma leads step by step to an ever purer and loftier happiness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel006.html with metta / Antony. 15415 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 10:13pm Subject: Re: Welcome Dear Sarah, Rob K and all, Thanks for the warm welcome. I have been monitoring the dsg archives for a while and have found some topics interesting in the last week or so. I live in Sydney, Australia. I am 32 years old and have been studying Theravada since I was 23. The main point I learnt about introductory Abhidhamma from a Burmese monk Ven U Dipaloka was that anxiety, worry, fear, sadness, anger are all //dosa//. I've heard that the Patthana is profound but difficult. My interests in the Dhamma include Buddhist Economics, Right Speech and The Four Sublime States (and other works by Nyanaponika). I accepted Kamma and Rebirth only after reading the comprehensive "Paticcasamuppada" by Mahasi Sayadaw which I recommend: ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/therabud/mahasipt.zip I look forward to participating in dsg further. Best wishes / Antony. 15416 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Problem Of The Greater Mind Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: >...... Nyanatiloka writes "náma: (lit. > 'name'): 'mind', mentality." > If there is no cognitive aspect to nibbana, if it is not the > nondual > awareness of absence of objects and conditions, if it can be taken as > object > but is, itself, unknowing in addition to being unconditioned, then it > sounds > more like an "unconditioned rupa" than a nama. .... Just reading from the latest extract from Perfections: “The term by rúpas (rúpesu) means: by the four great Elements and the derived rúpas that are dependent on these”. Or from Atthasalini, “one having material qualities (ruupii) refers to the possession of material quality (ruupa.m)”. Maybe it’s easiest to just consider nibbana as nama by default or to say realities consist of cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana if that helps. ..... >Moreover, in this case, > *entry* to final nibbana sounds more like annihilation to me than > liberation > - it sounds like a final turning off of the light. Instead of being the > freeing of consciousness, the dropping off of all conditions, entry to > nibbana inaugurates the ultimate avijja (non-seeing). Let me ask you - > what > is it you would find lovely in that? > ------------------------------------------------------ I don’t find this phrase very lovely and somewhat confusing. Anpupadi-sesa nibbana or parinibbana is nibbana with the cessation of the khandhas. “They who, by knowing this state uncompounded have heart’s release, by cutting off the stream, they who have reached the core of dhamma, glad To end, such have abandoned all becomings.” (Itivuttaka, ch 11). Of course it is not appealing to those of us with so much lobha accumulated. Only the arahats have eradicated all lobha for all becoming (bhava). > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But what is distinctive about namas? > ------------------------------------------------------- I don’t think I can add much more to the quote from Atthasalini (discussed in more detail, PTS trans p500) without more research. There is also this one other short quote if it helps: “In the mind and matter group, the term ‘mind’ (naama) is applied to mental properties because ‘names’ once given to them are fixed, or because they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend the mind unto themselves. ‘Matter’ is that which changes its state or condition (according to heat or cold, etc).” (p.69) >> --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The "levels of consiousness" are variations among the cittas, > particularly as regards their intensity and the kinds of cetasikas > associated, nothing more mysterious. Bhavanga cittas, for example, have > low > intensity, and are subliminal. > ---------------------------------------------------------- I think ‘subliminal’ ‘subconscious’ are confusing terms to refer to bhavanga cittas as discussed before. I agree we could talk about the intensity of cetasikas - degrees of dosa, for example. I don’t think we could talk about seeing or bhavanga citta as being less intense because they are not accompanied by lobha or dosa though. One other point I’d like to pick up (read: butt in) from your post to Nina. She said “I better understand sound now, pleasant or unpleasant, hearing, aversion on account of it.” You replied that “this is theoretical understanding, understanding via the intellect. It is not the understanding that is freeing (though it *is* supportive of that understanding).” ..... Of course, if we talk about these realities now, it is most probably just theoretical understanding. However, at the moments hearing or aversion or sound arise, there can be direct understanding of their characteristics without any thinking or theorizing. Panna that directly knows realities can arise anytime if there is clear comprehension. This understanding is ‘freeing’ for just that moment, but of course no kilesa (defilements) will be eradicated or 'freed' until panna is of the degree to realize nibbana with the sotapatti magga (at stage of sotapanna). It just depends on conditions at this moment what kind of understanding may arise. Hope I haven’t confused further;-) Sarah =====. 15417 From: dark knight Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 1046 Hello Sir, I have a small doubt reg. "noting" mentioned in your mail attached below. Message: 11 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:26:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Epstein Subject: Re: Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) "...and in the Theravadan tradition I happened to be involved with at the time, would use the device of 'noting' the breath to involve the mind in the attention to breathing. One would 'note' gently with the mind 'rising' and 'falling' with the in and out breath, if the place of following the breath were the 'belly'. It was also possible to note breathing out and breathing in at the nostrils or with other locations of the breath. One would follow the attention and see where it went, if it departed from the breath and note what it did, such as 'thinking', 'imagining', 'feeling discomfort'; whatever the object of attention was. The noting was a gross method for sort of marking one's place and one would hopefully go beyond this to discern the exact sensation or thought or movement of the breath to the extent possible." Even though it's told that noting is a wonderfull tool, but while noting, aren't we involving our mental faculties ?ie, labelling as "thinking", or "imagining", etc. ? this process thus involves recollection. In that view, how is it different from thinking ? only that one knows that one is thinking. Doesn't this also increase one's feeling of doership or ego sense ? With Metta, Krishnan. PS : As I understand very little of Abhidhamma, I request all who are kind enough to clarify this doubt using minimum of Abhidhamma. 15418 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Problem Of The Greater Mind Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and all) - > > A bit more about nibbana. I found a (possibly) interesting item > at the > web site http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/panadi10.htm, where nibbana > is > described as an unmanifestive consciousness: > > ************************************************** > In the Theravada Canon there are references to assert that Nibbana is > the > consciousness liberated from all worldly objects and thoughts, as is > stated > in the Dighanikaya. "Nibbanam-Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato > pabbam" - > Nibbana is the consciousness that has no sign perceptible to the senses > and > it is immeasurable, purest and a state wherein all the connection with > elements cease, leaving no trace (assesam uparujjhati). (D.i. 223). > *************************************************** "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of > nothingness, .................... S: I may not have made it clear, that in the Masefield translation and Com notes which I’m using, base is used instead of dimension (as here) in ‘There is, monks,that base’ (tadayatanam) ******************** (p.1012 Udana com): “...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says ‘Wherein there is neither earth, nor water’ and so on so as to indicate its own nature via an elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations (sankhara), so are all cvonditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is that of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, nor the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), ‘Nor that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception’.” ******************** In other words, as I understand ‘endless space.....non-perception’, these lines are referring to the arupa planes where there are already an absence of the elements and all rupas. They are referred to here to indicate that even so, all ‘states belonging’ to these planes (i.e. all conditioned realities) are also absent. END EARLIER POST (1) ***** Howard, I also had some discussion with Anders this time last year on the use of vi~n~naana.m and thanks to Escribe’s search function, I just found this very easily: ***** QUOTE earlier post (Both S and Sarah are me I think;-)) > 'The intellect of Arahatship, the invisible, the endless, > accessible from every side[23] > 'Where is it that earth, water, fire, and wind,...’ > > ************************************************ S: With regard to the MN 49 (24-26) passage you quoted: Sarah: >> B.Bodhi translates the passage as: > > 'the consciousness that makes no showing, > > And in becoming about to disbecome, > > Not claiming being with respect to all: > > that is not partaken of by the earthness of earth etc Maj NIk, 49, The Invitation of a Brahma,24-26 -------------------------------- S: The word 'consciousness' is translated from 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to be understood as 'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not consciousness according to the Pali com. as explained to me. As I mentioned, BB also added in his notes (513). , Sarah: >>"MA takes > >the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the > >sense that "it can be cognized" '. ----------------------------------- S: Perhaps another translation of the first line could be: 'Cognizable (vi~n~naa.na.m), invisible (anidassana.m), shinining in all directions (ananta.m sabbatopabha)' END EARLIER POST (2) ***** The translation work here was Jim’s. Suan also wrote a useful post and translation along these lines but with far more detail (Suan, perhaps you can repost it or a link if you can find it easily....it didn’t show up on my search just now). Sarah ====== 15419 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 3:50am Subject: Re: Meditation and Satipatthana --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: >L: I would be interested in reading what you and Sarah and Jon and Nina and Robert K (or any other of A. Sujin's students) think is the best way to practice satipatthana. _________________ Dear Larry, Perhaps when we think about practice of satipatthana we are already in the realm of looking for methods and techniques that we think enhance or lead to satipatthana. There may be already the idea of me doing something to get somewhere; the same motivating factors that have been with us throughout samsara that have got us good things and bad; but that won't, I suspect, lead out of samsara because they are tainted with self view. If one has enough patience and dedication one can learn to concentrate; to become conscious of subtle sensations, of thoughts, of movements, of tastes, feelings. This may be useful but it depends on the type of citta that experiences these dhammas as to whether it is really satipatthana - the test, I believe, is whether the moment is clung to, such as a subtle wanting to understand or experience; or whether the moment is known, perhaps wordlessly, as just an insignificant dhamma - not me or mine. With effort and the right practice, we can become the 'Meditator" or the "Abhidhamma expert" or the "Calm person" because these seem desirable and have the look of progress - but they too may be varied shapes of the Paticcasamuppada(dependent origination). Think of seeing. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just in one day. Yet every moment of seeing arises because of very complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions are there it must arise. We take it for granted but it is at least as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to see. If they good eyes (conditioned by kamma and other conditions) then they must see; but if they are without eyes.... If you have time you might like to read over these edited letters I wrote to an American writer a few years ago. http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html Robert 15420 From: Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Never mind the opinion(s). What is the Dhamma knowledge and experience you have to share. I am always awed by your profound sharing. I do not ascribe to, not do I subscribe to the Dhamma ever being opinion or opinionated. Do you think this is Right View/Understanding? Metta, VBD ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 9/2/02 8:12:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > k: As what you said that one's predispositions depend > > on ones factor, that is why I am incline to discourage > > pple to write their own opinion even if one best shot > > rather than facts from the sutta and commentaries in > > well read or any publication. It could lead to > > distortion of the truth. Opinion should be confined > > to our own consumption or healthy discussion confining > > to ones circle of friends and let it be known that is > > our own opinion esp during this age of the dhamma. > > > > > > kind rgds > > Ong KC > > > ========================== > I understand your point. I generally make it a point to indicate that > what is only my opinion is, indeed, just that. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > 15421 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Time for a change (a long post) Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 9/3/02 4:46:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > Hello Howard, > I have this book and will be glad to loan it to you if the copyright thing > is > seen as a problem. I had great difficulty reading it, never getting beyond > the first 15 pages or so, do to the large number of untranslated Pali > footnotes (and one passage in the text, as I recall). Perhaps I can do a > bit > better now than a few years ago. > I'd be way glad to loan it if it came back with translations! > metta, stephen > > ============================== Thank you! That is very kind of you. I guess I'll wait to see what, if anything, Rob is able to find out. If there is an objection to making and distributing copies, then I will sure take you up on your kind offer! (But you can bet that it will *not* come back with translations of the Pali! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15422 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 9:24am Subject: McYoga from http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,42783,00.html Yogis Behaving Badly For millennia, the intricate techniques of yoga were passed down from teacher to student in a sacred exchange. But today, in the booming yoga industry, it's (downward-facing) dog-eat-dog. By Paul Keegan, September 2002 Issue You can't take it anymore. The greed, corruption, and selfishness of the business world have broken your spirit. You need inner peace. Everyone's walking around with a yoga mat these days, so you fly to Los Angeles, yoga capital of America, hoping for a little enlightenment: a quiet candlelit room, some gentle stretching, the chanting of mantras, a sage Indian guru dispensing ancient truths. But when you arrive at one of the most popular yoga centers in the country -- the Bikram Yoga College of India in Beverly Hills -- it's a giant mirrored studio crammed with more than 100 buff and sweaty devotees of the resident guru, Bikram Choudhury, a short Indian fellow sitting on a raised-platform throne wearing nothing but a black Speedo swimsuit and a diamond-studded wristwatch. Power trips, cutthroat competition, and sex scandals? Tell us about your yoga controversy. "Inhale!" cries your new master. Soon you're lying on your stomach, grasping your ankles behind you, and swaying like a rocking horse, trying to hold the Bow Pose. "Exhale!" The heat is cranked up to 105 degrees -- designed to turn your muscles into Silly Putty -- and the sweat's flying. For the next 90 minutes, the closest you get to God is praying for this torture to stop. Then, lying in the Corpse Pose when it's all over, you begin meditating: 100 people times $20 apiece = $2,000 for one class; 2,000 students a week = $2 million per year. Given that Bikram has franchised his "hot yoga" method in 600 studios nationwide, and that 600 Bikram teachers will pay $5,000 each for his 60-day crash course this year, that's another $3 million annually. Throw in lecture fees, yoga seminars, books, videos, and a line of clothing and accessories, and Bikram's empire adds up to at least $7 million, making him one of the biggest players in the burgeoning industry of Yoga Inc. After class you follow Bikram as he pads back to his office. A recognized yoga master at age 56 -- he won the National India Yoga Competition at age 11, the youngest ever -- he sits behind his big desk and begins lecturing about the sacred eight-limbed path to enlightenment outlined in the ancient Yoga Sutra. The first limb is called "yama" and consists of five Sanskrit words that mean don't harm others, lie, steal, lust, or be greedy. You nod enthusiastically. This is exactly what America needs: a thriving new industry built not on unethical behavior and ruthless opportunism but rather on timeless humanitarian ideals. Nobody knows how big the yoga market is, but with an estimated 18 million practitioners in the United States today -- mostly affluent baby boomers who drive the wider $230 billion market in healthy, environmentally friendly products -- it surely ranks in the hundreds of millions. But the business model that supports it must, by definition, defy the rapacious ethos of our era, based as it is on a 5,000-year-old philosophy of selfless devotion to helping others achieve inner peace. Excited by this prospect, you ask Bikram about some other forms of hatha yoga you might want to try -- ashtanga, iyengar, jivamukti -- but he scowls at your temerity. "Nobody does hatha yoga in America except me!" he bellows, offering as proof his celebrity students, ranging from George Harrison in 1969 to Madonna and Michael Jackson. "All of them are my students! All of them! ALL OF THEM! My name is Guru of the Stars." Later on, Bikram brags about his mansion with servants in Beverly Hills and his 30 classic cars, from Rolls-Royces to Bentleys. He also claims to have cured every disease known to humankind and compares himself to Jesus Christ and Buddha. Requiring neither food nor sleep, he says, "I'm beyond Superman." When you ask how he can make such wild statements, he answers, "Because I have balls like atom bombs, two of them, 100 megatons each. Nobody fucks with me." Perhaps. But it sounds more like Bikram has let this guru stuff go to his head. Still, one megalomaniacal yogi, you solemnly vow, will not derail your search for the pious new business model of Yoga Inc., surely in abundant evidence everywhere else. Power trips, cutthroat competition, and sex scandals? Tell us about your yoga controversy. Yoga Yama 1: Ahimsa Don't Harm Others Yoga literally means "union with God" and encourages a divine harmony with all things. Which raises an intriguing question: How do the biggest players in the yoga business reconcile ahimsa -- that one's actions should never harm others -- with the capitalist principle that one should always try to squash the competition like a bug? In short, not very well. Resentment has been brewing in recent years over what some yogis consider thuggish behavior by Yoga Journal magazine, the powerful nexus for the industry. Much of the bad karma flows toward Yoga Journal's conference business. The Berkeley-based magazine pioneered the concept of a yoga conference back in 1995, ostensibly to bring thousands together to teach, practice, and meditate. Today, these one- to seven-day conferences draw more than 1,000 neophytes and longtime practitioners alike, who cough up as much as $850 apiece to bask in the saintly glow of star yogis like Rodney Yee. At five conferences a year, this adds up to some serious money, fully 30 percent of Yoga Journal's estimated $11 million in annual revenue. Growth like that is what has inspired the magazine to launch bold new marketing gambits like the "Yoga Cruise." In February, for the first time, a luxury liner full of people doing the sun salutation will sail to the Caribbean -- for as much as $2,600 per head. As the conference business has grown, so has the number of yoga entrepreneurs seeking opportunity in various regions of our stiff-necked nation. Three years ago yoga teacher Jonny Kest started the Midwest Yoga and Wellness Conference in Ann Arbor, Mich. -- only to discover how little ahimsa was being practiced back at Yoga Journal. First, Kest says, the magazine refused to run his ads. (It took an outcry from the yoga community, he says, to make it reverse its policy a few months later.) Now, he claims, Yoga Journal is trying to run him out of business entirely by holding a conference next spring within weeks of his annual event and within 50 miles of his planned venue near Chicago. "Yoga's not so big that you can have two major conferences in one area," Kest says glumly, noting that the magazine's marketing power and ability to attract celebrity yoga teachers could wipe him out. Why doesn't the magazine go into the vast areas that still don't have big conferences, he wonders, like the Northwest, the Northeast, or Toronto? "Yoga Journal is a monopoly," he sighs. "It's trying to do the Microsoft thing." Yoga Yama 2: Satya Don't Lie Yoga Journal behaving like Microsoft? The same magazine that publishes earnest articles like "Love Thine Enemy"? Impossible. But then again, Yoga Journal is no longer the sleepy little nonprofit it was in back in 1975 when it was launched by the California Yoga Teachers Association. In 1998 a former Citicorp investment banker named John Abbott bought the magazine and began transforming it into a slick glossy. In place of New Agey pieces about crystals and how to conquer fear with trapeze flying, Abbott began publishing articles about exotic yoga travel destinations and celebrity yogis like Madonna and Sting. He even signed up supermodel Christy Turlington as the magazine's editor at large. Power trips, cutthroat competition, and sex scandals? Tell us about your yoga controversy. Purists grumbled, but many in the yoga community give Yoga Journal credit -- not only for raising yoga's overall profile but for raising serious issues, like coping with injuries and the health benefits of yoga. The results have been impressive. Since Abbott took over, paid circulation has tripled from 90,000 to 275,000, ad revenue has skyrocketed while the rest of the magazine industry slumps, and Abbott says his publication will turn a profit this year for the first time in 27 years. Abbott, who has the bespectacled, balding look of a yoga-fit middle-age businessman, rebuts charges that his publication refused to run ads for competing conferences as "absolutely false." But Anne O'Brien, the director of the magazine's conference business before leaving a year ago, says Kest is right: Yoga Journal did, in fact, have a clear policy of not accepting ads from competing conferences, until complaints came pouring in. (She applauds the magazine, however, for reversing the policy, calling it "the right decision in the best interests of yoga.") As for why Yoga Journal decided to hold its conference so close to Kest's event, Abbott chalks it up to pure coincidence. Plans for a Chicago-area conference began two years ago, he says -- though O'Brien says Yoga Journal had never discussed it as of last August, when she left -- so he didn't know about the Midwest Yoga and Wellness Conference, which drew 850 attendees last spring. Abbott denies he's trying to wipe out his competitors, but sources say that two years ago the magazine hired a consultant who advised him to do exactly that by targeting markets all over North America that already host yoga conferences. "I don't believe so," Abbott says when asked if that's true. "Maybe things are said over a beer ..." There's another reason, actually, for Abbott's reticence. While most executives love to jaw about going mano a mano with their competitors, such talk is verboten within the yoga industry because it violates ahimsa -- even for Abbott, who confesses that he got into yoga not for its spiritual dimensions but to rehab a pulled hamstring. "It would bode poorly for any person trying to grind others under to adopt business practices that are harming," he says. "In this space, if you're viewed as doing that, a lot of adherents will run away. If you practice in a crass way, a predatory way, you won't be successful." Yoga Yama 3: Asteya Don't Steal "Be successful" is the new mantra of the yoga universe, which has become so competitive that trying to crack the big leagues is far more difficult than it was even a few years ago. But how do yogis in our covetous culture separate themselves from the pack without violating asteya, the yama that strictly forbids stealing? For millennia, the intricate techniques of yoga were passed down freely from teacher to student. Today they form a collection of highly marketable intellectual properties -- a phenomenon that has only encouraged some rather unenlightened behavior. Power trips, cutthroat competition, and sex scandals? Tell us about your yoga controversy. Bikram says there has been so much stealing of his "hot yoga" techniques during the last few years that he had to spend $500,000 in January for a lawyer to trademark his sequence of 26 asanas, or yoga poses, as well as his word-for-word monologues describing how to do them. Thus yoga, the franchise, was born. "People were doing illegal things," Bikram growls. "I had to stop them." At Jivamukti in New York City -- the downtown studio with 2,000 students per week and a website that lists 51 celebrity clients, from Steve Martin to Monica Lewinsky -- owner David Life complains that several former teachers have set up shop nearby, offering the same method he painstakingly developed with co-owner Sharon Gannon during the last 17 years. "They're not calling themselves Jivamukti, but the staff is almost 100 percent certified through our training program," Life says, adding that he might consider taking action if they start using the word Jivamukti -- which, naturally, the couple has trademarked. Yoga teachers respond that big schools like Jivamukti and Yoga Works in Los Angeles don't pay them nearly enough -- $25 per class with 10 students, plus $2.50 for each additional student the teacher attracts, is not unusual -- despite having revenue of well over $1 million per year. Such schools make the situation worse, they say, by requiring teachers to sign contracts that prohibit them from teaching at other schools within a wide geographical radius. "Most teachers simply want to share it, to give the gift of yoga," says Mark Stephens, who recently opened the L.A. Yoga Center in Westwood. "Schools shouldn't have contracts preventing them from doing that." Yoga scholars say these clashes are the inevitable result of trying to sell a spiritual experience that shouldn't be marketed in the first place. But that hasn't slowed the mad dash to own a slice of divinity: When Stephens started his business, he was amazed to find that nearly every sacred yoga word or phrase had been trademarked. The latest: A New York company selling "perfumes and colognes and essential oils for personal use" has applied for a trademark for "shanti," the ancient Sanskrit word for peace. Yoga Yama 4: Brahmacharya Don't Lust As word has spread in recent years about the wonders yoga can do for your sex life -- Sting has waxed eloquent on the subject in interviews -- the reaction is predictable: People start showing up for classes looking for some action, especially from the exquisitely toned teachers. This has become enough of an issue that the California Yoga Teachers Association has established a code of ethics that flatly states, "All forms of sexual behavior or harassment with students are unethical, even when a student invites or consents to such behavior [or] involvement." But, of course, it still happens. And now Rodney Yee, the man Time magazine called the "stud muffin" of yoga, is being sued by a former teacher at Yee's studio in Oakland, Calif. The teacher claims that Yee refused to let her teach there after she confronted him about his alleged sexual affairs with students. In May, after the lawsuit was filed, one of Yee's former students, Athena Pappas, released a statement saying that when her affair with him began, she was "vulnerable and sought his help as my teacher." Another former student has also said publicly that she felt manipulated in her sexual relationship with Yee. The fact that Yee has appeared everywhere from People to Yoga Journal, preaching about how yoga has helped his marriage and family life with three children, hasn't done much for his credibility while the saga drags on. Yee was on a teaching tour of Indonesia and couldn't be reached for comment, but his lawyer, Sanford Margolin, calls the lawsuit "much ado about nothing." Power trips, cutthroat competition, and sex scandals? Tell us about your yoga controversy. Yee's sex scandal is hardly the first to hit the yoga elite. In 1994, Amrit Desai of the Kripalu Center for Yoga and Health in Lennox, Mass., resigned after admitting that he'd had affairs with three female followers -- an ironic development, given that he'd made celibacy a cornerstone of his teaching. And in 1997, the Himalayan Institute of Honesdale, Pa., lost a $1.9 million judgment after a woman charged that its spiritual leader, Swami Rama, sexually assaulted her while she was a student there. But are the gurus, in fact, the ones being victimized? The Speedo-clad Bikram certainly thinks so. Defending the behavior of Yee and Desai, Bikram says he himself was actually blackmailed several times into having sex with students. "What happens when they say they will commit suicide unless you sleep with them?" he says. "What am I supposed to do? Sometimes having an affair is the only way to save someone's life." Yoga Yama 5: Aparigraha Don't Be Greedy The final yama, aparigraha, has been trampled so many times it's impossible to keep count. Clearly, the world of big-time yoga in America is undergoing a profound crisis but won't admit it. The most influential players, like Yoga Journal -- well positioned to monitor ethical lapses -- are also the worst offenders. The small operators are terrified of the powerful -- and are trying to let go of their anger, as the practice suggests -- so nobody challenges the unscrupulous behavior that everyone knows takes place. "Yoga has become cutthroat, Mafia-like," says Thom Birch, a prominent teacher on the yoga conference circuit before he recently quit in disgust. "Many of these people are the biggest thieves, bullies, and sex addicts -- all of it under this veil of spirituality." Needing inner peace more than ever, you take off your shoes and enter a little studio on Manhattan's East Side. The Dharma Yoga Center, quietly run since the 1960s by a respected yogi named Sri Dharma Mittra, is just what you've been looking for all along: a small room with carpet and dim lighting, chants of Om-m-m-m, and a few people in baggy sweatsuits moving through their poses. Later, lying again in the Corpse Pose, enlightenment dawns: There are thousands of devoted teachers like Dharma Mittra out there. You just don't hear about them because they're not driven by riches or fame. To them yoga is not a business at all, but a service through which they simply provide themselves with life's necessities -- the very definition of aparigraha.This was the idea behind Swami Vivekananda's historic visit to Chicago in 1893, when yoga first arrived in the United States. Rather than yoga changing America, however, the reverse is happening. Bikram recalls that when he started teaching in Los Angeles in the 1960s, he didn't charge for his classes. After all, that's how it was done in Calcutta, where he grew up. "In India, rich people built yoga schools," he says. "Here, nobody builds anything. So how long can I teach yoga for free?" So Bikram built an empire, not caring a whit that his flamboyant display of wealth and aggressive business tactics made him an embarrassment to the greater yoga community. Because he knows that Yoga Inc. has nothing to do with yamas. "I learned that when you are in Rome, you must do as the Romans do," he says, his diamond-studded wristwatch flashing in the brilliant L.A. sunshine streaming through his window. "Hey, America is a beautiful country." 15423 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Problem Of The Greater Mind Hi, Sarah - Thanks for your kind reply. Most of it calls for no further comment from me. I'll just make a couple points. One of these is that I certainly do not claim that nibbana is a kind of rupa, but only that should it have no cognitive aspect whatsoever, then it would seem to have more in common with rupas than with cittas and cetasikas. Another comment is with respect to your statement "Maybe it’s easiest to just consider nibbana as nama by default or to say realities consist of cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana if that helps." Making nibbana a category unto itself, with only cittas and cetasikas being nama has some virtue, but that's not the standard. The standard, evidentally, is to include nibbana in the category of nama. Now, given the detailed precision of Abhidhamma, talking nibbana as nama by *default* seems quite anomalous. All the other namas have cognitive aspect, and that cognitive aspect is what distinguishes them from rupa. It seems straightforward to me that it is for the same reason that nibbana is nama. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/3/02 5:08:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > >...... Nyanatiloka writes "náma: (lit. > > 'name'): 'mind', mentality." > > If there is no cognitive aspect to nibbana, if it is not the > > nondual > > awareness of absence of objects and conditions, if it can be taken as > > object > > but is, itself, unknowing in addition to being unconditioned, then it > > sounds > > more like an "unconditioned rupa" than a nama. > .... > > Just reading from the latest extract from Perfections: > “The term by rúpas (rúpesu) means: by the four great Elements and the > derived rúpas that are dependent on theseâ€?. > > Or from Atthasalini, “one having material qualities (ruupii) refers to the > possession of material quality (ruupa.m)â€?. > > Maybe it’s easiest to just consider nibbana as nama by default or to say > realities consist of cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana if that helps. > ..... > > >Moreover, in this case, > > *entry* to final nibbana sounds more like annihilation to me than > > liberation > > - it sounds like a final turning off of the light. Instead of being the > > freeing of consciousness, the dropping off of all conditions, entry to > > nibbana inaugurates the ultimate avijja (non-seeing). Let me ask you - > > what > > is it you would find lovely in that? > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > I don’t find this phrase very lovely and somewhat confusing. Anpupadi-sesa > nibbana or parinibbana is nibbana with the cessation of the khandhas. > > “They who, by knowing this state uncompounded > have heart’s release, by cutting off the stream, > they who have reached the core of dhamma, glad > To end, such have abandoned all becomings.â€? (Itivuttaka, ch 11). > > Of course it is not appealing to those of us with so much lobha > accumulated. Only the arahats have eradicated all lobha for all becoming > (bhava). > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > But what is distinctive about namas? > > ------------------------------------------------------- > I don’t think I can add much more to the quote from Atthasalini (discussed > in more detail, PTS trans p500) without more research. There is also this > one other short quote if it helps: > > “In the mind and matter group, the term ‘mind’ (naama) is applied to > mental properties because ‘names’ once given to them are fixed, or because > they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend the mind unto > themselves. ‘Matter’ is that which changes its state or condition > (according to heat or cold, etc).â€? (p.69) > > >> --------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > The "levels of consiousness" are variations among the cittas, > > particularly as regards their intensity and the kinds of cetasikas > > associated, nothing more mysterious. Bhavanga cittas, for example, have > > low > > intensity, and are subliminal. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > I think ‘subliminal’ ‘subconscious’ are confusing terms to refer to > bhavanga cittas as discussed before. I agree we could talk about the > intensity of cetasikas - degrees of dosa, for example. I don’t think we > could talk about seeing or bhavanga citta as being less intense because > they are not accompanied by lobha or dosa though. > > > One other point I’d like to pick up (read: butt in) from your post to > Nina. She said “I better understand sound now, pleasant or unpleasant, > hearing, aversion on account of it.â€? You replied that “this is theoretical > understanding, understanding via the intellect. It is not the > understanding that is freeing (though it *is* supportive of that > understanding).â€? > ..... > Of course, if we talk about these realities now, it is most probably just > theoretical understanding. However, at the moments hearing or aversion or > sound arise, there can be direct understanding of their characteristics > without any thinking or theorizing. Panna that directly knows realities > can arise anytime if there is clear comprehension. This understanding is > ‘freeing’ for just that moment, but of course no kilesa (defilements) will > be eradicated or 'freed' until panna is of the degree to realize nibbana > with the sotapatti magga (at stage of sotapanna). It just depends on > conditions at this moment what kind of understanding may arise. > > Hope I haven’t confused further;-) > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15424 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 1046 Hi, Krishnan (and Rob) - In a message dated 9/3/02 6:23:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, thedarc_knight@y... writes: > > Even though it's told that noting is a wonderfull > tool, > but while noting, aren't we involving our mental > faculties ?ie, labelling as "thinking", or > "imagining", etc. ? this process thus involves > recollection. In that view, how is it different from > thinking ? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are not alone in thinking this. Bhante Gunaratana also recommends against the labelling practice. I think, however, that at least at an early stage of practice the labelling can be useful, because it moves one's thoughts in an impersonal direction: One gets used to thinking "seeing" instead of "I am seeing", "odor" instead of "I smell something", or "plannng" instead of "I am planning". This serves to establish a habit of thinking impersonally instead of personally. But, I agree that, ultimately, labelling needs to be dropped in order for vipassana to be operative. ---------------------------------------------------- only that one knows that one is thinking.> > Doesn't this also increase one's feeling of doership > or ego sense ? > > With Metta, > Krishnan. > > PS : As I understand very little of Abhidhamma, I > request all who are kind enough to clarify this doubt > using minimum of Abhidhamma. > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15425 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 9:44am Subject: dukkha of craving, conceit, I and mine The three stages of computer ownership: "The computer has 256MB of RAM." "My computer has 256MB of RAM." "I have 256MB of RAM." (from netfunny.com) 15426 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Problem Of The Greater Mind Hi, Sarah - Thanks! With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/3/02 6:28:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and all) - > > > > A bit more about nibbana. I found a (possibly) interesting item > > at the > > web site http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/panadi10.htm, where nibbana > > is > > described as an unmanifestive consciousness: > > > > ************************************************** > > In the Theravada Canon there are references to assert that Nibbana is > > the > > consciousness liberated from all worldly objects and thoughts, as is > > stated > > in the Dighanikaya. "Nibbanam-Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato > > pabbam" - > > Nibbana is the consciousness that has no sign perceptible to the senses > > and > > it is immeasurable, purest and a state wherein all the connection with > > elements cease, leaving no trace (assesam uparujjhati). (D.i. 223). > > > *************************************************** > > You may also find it useful to revisit the detailed discussions I had > quite a long time back with Ken O and Rob Ep on the Udana passages and > commentary passages - some saved under “Udanaâ€? in U.P. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > I’ll quote from one here, where although nibbana is not mentioned > specifically in the text, it is in the commentary notes and title: > > QUOTE from my earlier post > ======================= > Udana VIII.1 > > "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor > > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor > > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of > > nothingness, > .................... > > S: I may not have made it clear, that in the Masefield translation and Com > notes which I’m using, base is used instead of dimension (as here) in > > ‘There is, monks,that base’ (tadayatanam) > > ******************** > > (p.1012 Udana com): > > “...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its > highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says ‘Wherein there is > neither earth, nor water’ and so on so as to indicate its own nature via > an > elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. > > Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) > things, > since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all > formations > (sankhara), so are all cvonditioned things (not to be found) therein > either, > for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) > not > witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is > that > of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, > nor > the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind > element > whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the > four > great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any > becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) > form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of > forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of > any > of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), ‘Nor that > base > consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither > perception > nor non-perception’.â€? > > ******************** > > In other words, as I understand ‘endless space.....non-perception’, these > lines > are referring to the arupa planes where there are already an absence of > the > elements and all rupas. They are referred to here to indicate that even > so, all > ‘states belonging’ to these planes (i.e. all conditioned realities) are > also > absent. > END EARLIER POST (1) > ***** > > Howard, I also had some discussion with Anders this time last year on the > use of vi~n~naana.m and thanks to Escribe’s search function, I just found > this very easily: > ***** > QUOTE earlier post (Both S and Sarah are me I think;-)) > > > 'The intellect of Arahatship, the invisible, the endless, > > accessible from every side[23] > > 'Where is it that earth, water, fire, and wind,...’ > > > > > > ************************************************ > S: With regard to the MN 49 (24-26) passage you quoted: > > Sarah: >> B.Bodhi translates the passage as: > > > 'the consciousness that makes no showing, > > > And in becoming about to disbecome, > > > Not claiming being with respect to all: > > > that is not partaken of by the earthness of earth etc > Maj NIk, 49, The Invitation of a Brahma,24-26 > -------------------------------- > S: The word 'consciousness' is translated from 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to be > understood > as > 'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not consciousness according to the Pali > com. > as explained to me. As I mentioned, BB also added in his notes (513). , > > Sarah: >>"MA takes > > >the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in > the > > >sense that "it can be cognized" '. > ----------------------------------- > S: Perhaps another translation of the first line could be: > 'Cognizable (vi~n~naa.na.m), invisible (anidassana.m), shinining in all > directions (ananta.m sabbatopabha)' > END EARLIER POST (2) > ***** > > The translation work here was Jim’s. Suan also wrote a useful post and > translation along these lines but with far more detail (Suan, perhaps you > can repost it or a link if you can find it easily....it didn’t show up on > my search just now). > > Sarah > ====== > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dreams Dear Frank, thank you, I printed this out for Lodewijk (my husband), he wakes up overtired because of nightmares, every day. It is beyond control. The Dhamma is not a medicine for everything, but I handed him your post. You do have a sense of humor, I had to laugh so much: Well Frank, I appreciate your presence, I am glad your parents put you on this world, but they are not the real cause as you know. My nephew came with a little one and after an hour I almost started yelling, I lacked patience. op 02-09-2002 06:32 schreef frank kuan op fcckuan@y...: >> > Speaking of dreams, I had a nightmare a few nights ago > where I was getting murdered, but I was calm > throughout the murder, and woke up calmly afterwards. > My attitude throughout the dream was to not become to > wrapped up in the drama of identifying with self and > situations, and as a result I didn't really go through > any kind of anxiety or pain. > N: This also goes for real life. Are we not wrapped up in dramas? Identifying with self and situations? With appreciation, Nina. > > > > 15428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Larry and Kom, May I butt in? I find your dialogue most interestiung and very important, I appreciate it very much. There are so many points here, I shall touch on only a few. op 02-09-2002 04:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > L:"He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire comes to be; > he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; and > he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire > comes to be." N: this is about the four right efforts, very actual for daily life. When there is awareness and understanding of nama and rupa, they will reach accomplishment. L: "Herein, monks, a monk thinks, "Thus is material form;..." > > "Herein, monks, a monk knows the eye and visual forms and the fetter > that arises dependent on both..." N: this is all about satipatthana now. L: "Herein, monks, when the enlightenment-factor of mindfulness is present, > the monk knows, "The enlightenment-factor of mindfulness is in me,"" N: Satipatthana. In my series on anapanasati I shall deal more with the enlightenment factors. > "Herein, monks, a monk knows, "This is suffering," according to > reality..." > > K: How do you define "contemplation?" > > L: Conceptual cognition; not necessarily papanca but definitely vitakka > and vicara. All the examples above are more than naming, but not a lot > more. It isn't encyclopedic. > > "Naming" is how I interpret something like this: "Herein, monks, a monk > knows the consciousness with lust, as with lust...". I think several > meditation masters teach that the proper way to deal with this is to > "note". I'm calling it naming. It is more than simply paying attention > to what is happening or witnessing. It is a little nugget of cognition; > although it is often mechanical and not so cognitive. N: I personally believe that it is highly cognitive, it is panna. This is dukkha...etc., well, that is the realization of the four noble Truths. We often read this phrase in the suttas. L (snip) That's why I think the study of abidhamma without any meditation > discipline _could_ accomplish samma sati. N: Study of Abhidhamma without any meditation: again, what do people mean by meditation. I would say, just as Kom, study without mindfulness of nama and rupa is not enough. L: What is A. > Sujin's view on satipatthana meditation? Why doesn't she teach it? Does > she teach a similar discipline for developing detachment? N: There should be development of satipatthana, that is, sati and panna, development of direct awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa, very, very gradually. There may be a lot of thinking involved, but there can also be a moment of noting a characteristic without thinking. This may be seldom, but in this way the difference between thinking and sati can be known. The development of satipatthana will lead first to detachment from self, and later on from all namas and rupas. But together with satipatthana all perfections should be developed. They support panna. When the perfections are being developed there is a degree of giving up of clinging: dana, sila, renunciation, patience, metta, and the other perfections. Best wishes from Nina. 15429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 5,Understanding, no 4 Perfections, Ch 5, Understanding, no 4; The perfection of paññå can be developed when we perform deeds of generosity, when we know to what purpose we give things away: to eliminate defilements. Someone who does not know that paññå is to be developed in order to realize the four noble Truths, gives without paññå, and he may expect a reward for his good deed. However, when someone gives things away with understanding of realities he knows that there are no beings, people or self; he knows that because of birth there will be suffering and trouble, life after life. If he has truly understood this, he knows that when there is an end to rebirth, there will an end to suffering. This means that there will not be any more seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or the experience of tangible object and all the sufferings caused by them. All kinds of kusala have to be developed to the degree of a perfection, so that the four noble Truths can be realized and defilements be eradicated. When someone has become a streamwinner, sotåpanna, he will not more than seven times be reborn and then attain arahatship. When sati and paññå have become keener and more refined, we shall see that we have many different kinds of defilements through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind, the whole day. It is extremely difficult to eradicate them completely. This can only be achieved by developing every kind of kusala to the degree of a perfection. If someone has right understanding of the significance of the perfections, he will, when he performs generous deeds, not aim for anything else but the realization of the noble Truths so that defilements can be completely eradicated. We can only know ourselves whether our kusala is a perfection or not. If someone has no understanding of the way to eradicate defilements, his generosity is not a perfection. Someone who has listened to the Dhamma and notices his defilements, may perform kusala of the degree of a perfection, but it all depends on the strenghth of his paññå. Some people who have just begun to listen to the Dhamma say that they do not need to attain nibbåna, and that they do not need to be a ³streamwinner², sotåpanna, who will not be reborn more than seven times. They want to be reborn more than seven times. Thus, it is evident that in their case paññå of the level of listening is still weak. For the development of the perfections it is necessary that paññå clearly sees the benefit of developing them, be it the perfection of generosity, of síla, of renunciation or any of the other perfections. Thus, it all depends on the degree of paññå to what extent the perfections can be developed. We may not have understood that the defilements and all dukkha, suffering, which arise in this life are in ourselves, that is, the nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas we take for me, for self. The true cessation of dukkha is that nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma do not have to be reborn. 15430 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 9/3/02 7:46:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vinmardeb@e... writes: > > Never mind the opinion(s). What is the Dhamma knowledge and experience you > have to share. I am always awed by your profound sharing. > > I do not ascribe to, not do I subscribe to the Dhamma ever being opinion or > opinionated. > > Do you think this is Right View/Understanding? > > Metta, > > VBD > =============================== It's good to hear from you, Bhante. I'm not completely clear on what you are asking. Do I think *what* is Right View/Understanding? Ken's statement? Well, as far as that is concerned, I think I used the term 'opinion' where, perhaps, I would better have used the word 'understanding' or 'interpretation'. When a position is mere opinion, I do think it would be best either not communicated or, at least, clearly labelled as "opinion". However, there is nothing wrong, as I see it, to try to communicate ones *understanding* of the Dhamma, especially as one has come to see it through following the practice laid out by the Buddha. Now everything we worldlings think and do is influenced by predisposition, by craving, and by aversion, and this includes our understanding of the Dhamma. But if we restrict ourselves on that account to only quoting chapter and verse without benefit of our own understanding it would not be adequate as I see it. We are all trying to grasp the Buddha's Dhamma and make it the core of our life, and sharing our understanding of it, both theory and practice, is beneficial so long as we apply mindfulness and clear comprehension in the process. With metta, Howard > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) > > > > Hi, Ken - > > > > In a message dated 9/2/02 8:12:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > > > k: As what you said that one's predispositions depend > > > on ones factor, that is why I am incline to discourage > > > pple to write their own opinion even if one best shot > > > rather than facts from the sutta and commentaries in > > > well read or any publication. It could lead to > > > distortion of the truth. Opinion should be confined > > > to our own consumption or healthy discussion confining > > > to ones circle of friends and let it be known that is > > > our own opinion esp during this age of the dhamma. > > > > > > > > > kind rgds > > > Ong KC > > > > > ========================== > > I understand your point. I generally make it a point to indicate > that > > what is only my opinion is, indeed, just that. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15431 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 7:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dreams Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/3/02 1:00:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Frank, > thank you, I printed this out for Lodewijk (my husband), he wakes up > overtired because of nightmares, every day. It is beyond control. The > Dhamma > is not a medicine for everything, but I handed him your post. > ============================== I hope your husband manages to find a "quick fix". If not, there is a longer term procedure that might help, the cultivation of lucid dreaming, where one is aware during a dream that it *is* a dream. (It is a bringing of mindfulness into the dream state.) What is useful in this is, among other things, the ability to take some control over what occurs in the dream, to change things, to greet "monsters" with lovingkindness. It really can work, but it requires regular practice. I used to engage in it a bit, and it is quite amazing. (But I'm no expert at all.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15432 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 2:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Time for a change (a long post) Hi Howard, The link sent previously was to the publisher's on-line book store. If you penetrate to the "Philosophy" section: http://www.buddhistcc.com/bookshop/philosophy/index.html You can find this book available for purchase for US$8.00 (item #12). As the book can be easily ordered on-line (at a reaonable price), I can't see any reason for the publisher to allow me to photocopy it for you. I suggest that you borrow Stephen's copy and then decide if you want to order one for your permanent library. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Stephen - > > In a message dated 9/3/02 4:46:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... > writes: > > > > Hello Howard, > > I have this book and will be glad to loan it to you if the copyright thing > > is > > seen as a problem. I had great difficulty reading it, never getting beyond > > the first 15 pages or so, do to the large number of untranslated Pali > > footnotes (and one passage in the text, as I recall). Perhaps I can do a > > bit > > better now than a few years ago. > > I'd be way glad to loan it if it came back with translations! > > metta, stephen > > > > > ============================== > Thank you! That is very kind of you. I guess I'll wait to see what, if > anything, Rob is able to find out. If there is an objection to making and > distributing copies, then I will sure take you up on your kind offer! (But > you can bet that it will *not* come back with translations of the Pali! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard 15433 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Time for a change (a long post) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/3/02 5:40:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > The link sent previously was to the publisher's on-line book store. > If you penetrate to the "Philosophy" section: > > http://www.buddhistcc.com/bookshop/philosophy/index.html > > You can find this book available for purchase for US$8.00 (item #12). > > As the book can be easily ordered on-line (at a reaonable price), I > can't see any reason for the publisher to allow me to photocopy it > for you. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That certainly seems correct. Thank you for checking. ----------------------------------------------------- > > I suggest that you borrow Stephen's copy and then decide if you want > to order one for your permanent library. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, or perhaps I'll just order it. (I'll want to really go over the material slowly.) ------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > =========================== With metta and thanks, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15434 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 4:22pm Subject: ADL ch. 23 (2) http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 23 (1) What is right understanding? The answer is: seeing nåma and rúpa as they are: impermanent, dukkha and non-self. Right understanding can be developed. When we still have wrong view, we take realities for self: we take seeing for self, we take visible object for self, we take feeling for self, we take saññå (remembrance or ``perception´´) for self, we take thinking for self, we take defilements for self, we also take good qualities such as mindfulness and wisdom for self. In being mindful of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa which appear, the wrong view of self can be eliminated; then there will be right understanding. So long as one has not become a sotåpanna one may deviate from the right Path, there can be wrong practice. There is wrong practice when, for example, one thinks that there should be awareness only of particular kinds of nåma and rúpa, instead of being aware of whatever kind of nåma or rúpa appears. People may for example believe that lobha, dosa and moha should not or cannot be objects of mindfulness. However, akusala cittas are realities which arise because of their appropriate conditions, they are part of one's daily life. If one selects the objects of awareness, one will continue to cling to a concept of self who could exert control over one's life. Some people believe that vipassanå can only be developed when sitting in a quiet place, but then they set rules for the practice, and thus, they will not be able to see that mindfulness too is anattå. The sotåpanna has, apart from ditthi, also eradicated other defilements. He has eradicated doubt or vicikicchå. Doubt is classified as one of the ``hindrances´´; it prevents us from performing kusala. We may doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, about the right practice. The sotåpanna has no more doubt. Another akusala cetasika, eradicated by the sotåpanna, is stinginess, macchariya. The Visuddhimagga (XXII, 52) mentions five kinds of avarice: The kinds of avarice are the five, namely, avarice about dwellings, families, gain, Dhamma and praise, which occur as inability to bear sharing with others any of these things beginning with dwellings. The Atthasåliní (Expositor, Book II, part II, chapter II, 374, 375) gives an explanation of these five kinds of avarice concerning the monk's dwelling-place, the family he is used to visiting in order to receive the four requisites (robes, food, shelter and medicines), the four requisites themselves (mentioned as ``gain´´), knowledge of the Dhamma and praise (concerning personal beauty or virtues). It is explained that there is stinginess if one does not want to share any of these things with others. However, there is no stinginess if one does not want to share these things with someone who is a bad person or someone who would abuse these things. For instance, if one does not teach Dhamma to someone who will abuse Dhamma, there is no stinginess as to Dhamma. Thus we see that the eradication of stinginess does not mean sharing everything one has with anybody. The sotåpanna has eradicated stinginess; the five kinds of stinginess just mentioned do not arise anymore. Furthermore, the sotåpanna has eradicated envy, isså. Envy can arise with dosa-múla-citta (citta rooted in aversion). The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 172) states concerning envy: Envying is envy. It has the characteristic of being jealous of others' success. Its function is to be dissatisfied with that. It is manifested as averseness from that. Its proximate cause is another's success... The sotåpanna is an ariyan, a ``noble person´´, although not all defilements are eradicated by him. He is an ariyan, because at the moment of enlightenment, when the magga-citta arose, he became a different person; he is no longer a ``worldling´´, puthujjana. There are no more latent tendencies of wrong view, ditthi, and doubt, vicikicchå, accumulated in the citta, and there are no more inclinations to stinginess, macchariya, or envy, isså. What is a latent tendency? When we desire something we have lobha. When the lobha-múla-cittas have fallen away, there are other kinds of citta which are not accompanied by lobha. However, the lobha which arose before has been accumulated, it remains latent. When there are conditions for its arising, it can arise again with the akusala citta. Latent tendencies are accumulated in every citta, even in the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) which does not experience an object through one of the sense-doors or the mind-door. The question may occur whether the latent tendency of ditthi is eradicated gradually or all at once. The answer is that in the course of the development of right understanding ditthi is gradually eliminated until all latent tendencies are eradicated at the attainment of enlightenment. One cannot attain enlightenment without having cultivated the right conditions. We see that in the Buddha's time some people could attain enlightenment quickly, even during a discourse; some could attain enlightenment after a more detailed explanation of the truth, whereas others had to develop the eightfold Path for a longer time before they could attain enlightenment. It all depends on how much wisdom has already been accumulated, also during previous lives. As to the attainment of enlightenment in the present time, the right conditions have to be cultivated; enlightenment cannot occur all of a sudden. If there is awareness of all kinds of nåma and rúpa appearing in daily life, paññå can investigate their characteristics and in this way it can gradually develop. We cannot expect a great deal of sati and paññå in the beginning. However, each moment of right awareness is fruitful, because it can condition further moments of awareness and thus it can be accumulated. When paññå realizes a phenomenon which appears as nåma or rúpa, clinging to the concept of self is gradually eliminated, until finally all latent tendencies of ditthi are eradicated by the magga-citta (lokuttara kusala citta) of the sotåpanna. Then ditthi will never arise again. 15435 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1) Hi Sarah, I also feel like I need to re-read the whole thing. I would definitely like to continue with another study thread. Anything would be fine with me. Maybe it should be something on-line unless someone wants to type or scan something. Any ideas Christine? Larry 15436 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Robert K. Thanks for your reply. Would it be fair to say that your position is that the practice of satipatthana or any other kusala activity is bound to be pervaded by defilements so it is better not to persue these activities? Larry 15437 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (2) Dear Nina, thanks very much for this (below). However, I'm still not clear on what A. Sujin is teaching with regard to satipatthana meditation. I get the feeling she thinks it is a waste of time or it would be better to contemplate the dhamma unencumbered by formalities of meditation technique or the concept of satipatthana meditation is ill conceived. Any light you could shed on this would be appreciated. I would like to see what Kom, Sarah, and Jon have to say on this as well. Get sort of a consensus view. thanks, Larry --------------- Nina wrote: L: What is A. Sujin's view on satipatthana meditation? Why doesn't she teach it? Does she teach a similar discipline for developing detachment? N: There should be development of satipatthana, that is, sati and panna, development of direct awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa, very, very gradually. There may be a lot of thinking involved, but there can also be a moment of noting a characteristic without thinking. This may be seldom, but in this way the difference between thinking and sati can be known. The development of satipatthana will lead first to detachment from self, and later on from all namas and rupas. But together with satipatthana all perfections should be developed. They support panna. When the perfections are being developed there is a degree of giving up of clinging: dana, sila, renunciation, patience, metta, and the other perfections. Best wishes from Nina. 15438 From: Antony Woods Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 8:50pm Subject: Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Dear Howard and all, Here is an extract from Majjhima 95 about safeguarding the truth. "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn095.html with metta / Antony. 15439 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:03pm Subject: Some Thoughts on the Satipatthana Suttas, Pa~n~natti, and Dhammas Hi, all - I've looked over the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and Satipatthana Sutta for purposes of comparing them and for analysis of the four foundations, and a few things occur to me. First of all, as far as comparison is concerned, these seem to be basically the identical teaching, but with extraneous material on the four noble truths etc being inserted in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. The common material is basically that of the Satipatthana Sutta. Now the more interesting part. As I looked over the first three foundations of mindfulness, especially the first, what I see being taken as objects of contemplation are primarily (referents of) pa~n~natti. There is the body, there is the breath, there are bodily postures, there are bodily organs, fluids, and tissues, there are decomposing corpses, and there are also feelings and states of mind. The fourth foundation, that of "dhammas", is described by Bhikkhu Bodhi in The Middle Length Sayings as contemplation of mind-objects. But as I look over what phenomena are included, it occurs to me that they are all cittas and cetasikas, they are all so called paramattha dhammas. It seems to me that the Satipatthana Sutta takes the student through the meditative process as follows: Begin by directing the mind to conventional objects (the referents of pa~n~natti) such as the the breath, bodily postures, bodily sensations and how they feel (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral), and states of mind (angry mind, happy mind, distracted mind etc) until one's concentration, mindfulness, energy, and investigation grow in power and balance to the point that one sees through the conventional objects to the elementary phenomena that compose them. Thus, by the time that one experientially reaches the fourth foundation, one is examining with wisdom the irreducible, direct elements of experience, and already has seen the conventional objects "dissolve", and then, as the enlightenment factors strengthen, one also sees through even these paramattha dhammas as dependently arisen, and thus su~n~na: anicca, dukkha, and anatta. The process begins by attending to what the ordinary worldling can normally be aware of, and continues to subtler and subtler levels of apprehension until the most subtle elements of experience are examined and seen through, leading the mind to freedom. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15440 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 10:33pm Subject: Moderator note - Frank & All Frank, In case you don't realise, your 'McYoga' post was real no-no for this list (and if a post has been sent in error, a quick follow-up note to that effect would be appreciated). Pls note the following from the Guidelines with regard to subject matter and length: ============================================== Posts We welcome any questions, answers, or comments, however light-hearted, relating to the Buddha's teachings as found in the texts of the Theravada tradition (including the Suttanta, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and the ancient commentaries). Good Practice ... Also, please avoid quoting large chunks of text that are available elsewhere on-line -- use links instead. ================================================ All, Please also keep in mind this para from the Guidelines with regard to trimming of posts: =============================================== For replies, delete any part of the original message that is not directly relevant to your reply. This saves the reader from having to scroll through large chunks of text, and saves archive space which may be limited in future. =============================================== Many thanks for your cooperation. As usual, any comments or queries on this should be made off-list only. Jon & Sarah ========== 15441 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moderator note - Frank & All --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Frank, > > In case you don't realise, your 'McYoga' post was > real no-no for this list > (and if a post has been sent > in error, a quick follow-up note to that effect > would be appreciated). > Actually, that post was made with complete mindfulness and full awareness of intention. Links to many excellent articles tend to go stale within 2 weeks, so I actually had to do EXTRA WORK to cut and paste from 5 pages on the website to ensure that everyone could see it. The subject matter was completely relevant to dhamma practice (subjective judgement of course), or else I would not have posted it. The moderators can run the list however they like, and I understand their point of view. My apologies. -fk 15442 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1) Hi Larry, Sarah and All, Have a look at 'Cetasikas' by Nina and see what you think. I'm happy to go along with any strong preference anyone has - there is nothing that I don't need to study and learn. Has anyone else got an idea of something they would really like the group to study together? http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, I also feel like I need to re-read the whole thing. I would > definitely like to continue with another study thread. Anything would be > fine with me. Maybe it should be something on-line unless someone wants > to type or scan something. Any ideas Christine? > > Larry 15443 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Larry (& Kom), In your posts to Kom, you mention (with regard to sections of the Satipatthana sutta) “overly contemplative and therefore necessarily conceptual”, “conceptual cognition”, “naming” and “panna is conceptual”. On the contrary, I understand all the sections in the sutta to be referring to paramattha dhammas and to the development of sati sampajanna (right awareness and understanding) of these objects. It will depend on accumulations which objects are objects at any given moment- no rule. The development of satipatthana is not conceptual, but the development of the Path. Let me quote from 2 past posts in support of these comments (apologies for being rather long for you): ***** QUOTE1. Sarah: When we were discussing the translations of the Satipatthana Sutta, Erik and I were discussing the limitations of ‘focussing’ and ‘comprehending’. Afterwards, I checked the detail in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and sub-commentary on the use of sati-sampajanna and quote below from Soma Thera’s translation p.34: ***** "Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. Clearly comprehending = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. Rightly = Correctly [aviparitam]. Entirely = By knowing in all ways [sabbakarapajananena]. Equally = By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparupari visesavaha-bhavena pavattiya]. Satima = "Mindful." Endowed with mindfulness that lays hold of the body as a subject of meditation, because this yogavacara (the man conversant with contemplative activity) contemplates with wisdom after laying hold of the object with mindfulness. There is nothing called contemplation without mindfulness. Therefore the Master said: "Mindfulness is necessary in all circumstances, O bhikkhus, I declare."[17] Necessary in all circumstances = Everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable. Or, that by the help of which the other proper Factors of Enlightenment [bojjhanga] are capable of being developed, is "necessary in all circumstances." Here, contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by mindfulness. To point out the things by the influence of which the meditation of the yogi prospers, is the purpose of the words, "Ardent, clearly comprehending, and mindful." " ***** I think the following quotes, (p.22) also help us to see importance of panna (wisdom) as being foremost, even when we are discussing satipatthana: ***** "Since there is nothing called spiritual development [bhavana] without laying hold on something whatsoever in material form, feeling, consciousness and mental objects [kaya vedana citta dhammesu kiñci dhammam anamasitva] they (Santati and Patacara) too overcame sorrow and lamentation just by this Way of Mindfulness. For the hearers [savaka], namely, the disciples of the Buddha, there is no attainment of the Noble Path [Ariya Magga] possible, except by practicing the subject of meditation [kammatthana] of the Four Truths [Catu Sacca]. Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom [pañña bhavana]. Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness." ***** Sarah: In the commentary notes under ‘kayanupassi’, we read more detail about the objects of sati-sampajanna, what read to be the paramattha dhammas (p33): ***** "In this body, apart from the above mentioned collection, there is seen no body, man, woman or anything else. Beings engender wrong belief, in many ways, in the bare groups of things mentioned above. Therefore the men of old said: What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free. What he sees = What man or woman he sees. Why, is there no seeing of man or a woman with the eye? There is. "I see a woman," "I see a man." -- these statements refer to what he sees by way of ordinary perception. That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [rupayatana] in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form [viparita gahavasena miccha parikappita rupatta]. Or the meaning is: the absence of perception which is called the seeing of primary and derived materiality, beginning with things such as the hair of the head, owing to non-cognizability of the collective nature of an object like a man or woman by eye-consciousness [kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam ditthi na hoti acakkhuviññana viññeyyatta]. What is seen that he does not properly see = He does not see, according to reality by the eye of wisdom, the sense-basis which exists, the collection of primary and derived materiality beginning with hair of the head and the like [yam rupayatanam kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam dittham tam pañña-cakkhuna bhutato na passati]. Not seeing properly he is shackled = Not seeing this body as it actually is, with the eye of wisdom, he thinks: "This is mine, this am I, this is my self," and is bound with the fetter of defilement [imam attabhavam yathabhutam paññacakkhuna apassanto etam mama esohamasmi eso me attati kilesa bandhanena bajjhati]." ***** Sarah: We sometimes discuss the value of the abhidhamma when reading suttas and the following commentary note to the Satipatthana Sutta is one example (amongst many far more detailed ones) of this, followed by a reference to ‘objects visual’ as requested;-) (p.41): ***** "Consciousness and mental objects, too, should be contemplated upon by way of the diversity of the division of object (arammana], dominance [adhipati], conascence [sahajata], plane [bhumi], causal action [kamma], result [vipaka], non-causative functional process [kriya], and so forth [adi], beginning with impermanence [aniccadinam anupassananam vesena] and by way of the division of consciousness that is with passion and so forth come down in the portion of analytical exposition [niddesavare agatasaragadi bhedañca vasena]. Or the divisions of object... non-causative functional process and so forth. Contemplation should be done by way of the division of the blue and so forth pertaining to the variety of objects visual and so forth [rupadi arammana nanattassa niladi tabbhedassa); ..." ***** END QUOTE 1 QUOTE 2. Jon The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object of seeing consciousness). So the visible object at that moment falls under both the ‘rupas’ section and the ‘mind object’ section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying realities and are not in themselves absolutes. Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a ‘dhamma’; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from ‘The Way of Mindfulness’ Jon Section on Mental Objects 2. The Aggregates "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks: 'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and thus is the disappearance of material form. Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the disappearance of feeling. Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception. Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations; and thus is the disappearance of the formations. Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally ... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] ********** END QUOTE 2 Larry, I hope I haven't strained your patience and you've found something useful here. Sarah p.s I really liked your comment to Rob M about studying abhidhamma. ============================================ 15444 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ADL ch. 20 (2) Hi Herman (& Rob M), Hope your phone line’s working Ok to get these posts.... While we were away you asked a very good question: --- egberdina wrote: > > I of course know zilch about asannasatta, and I know an equal amount > about rebirth. But it is said that the thought at death determines > the plane of existence in which the next thought takes place. I > presume asannasatta have no thought at death. Where are they reborn, > and why? ..... Rob M and Nina came to the rescue and explained that the next rebirth consciousness results from dying consciousness in the preceding life. I’ve been sharing (read: force feeding) everyone with extracts from my holiday reading on ‘Conditions’ and I meant to share this extra info with you which I thought you’d find interesting as it relates the same ‘laws’ to suspension of cittas in jhanas. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ This is a footnote in the chapter of Proximity condition (Anantara paccaya) and Contiguity condition (Samanantara paccaya) which show how “The preceding citta is the condition, paccaya, for the arising of the subsequent citta which is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma)” and also how “Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, succeeding one another without interval.” QUOTE FOOTNOTE “ In some cases there can be temporary suspension of citta, and then only rúpas arise and fall away. Those who have developed samatha up to the fourth stage of arúpa-jhåna, the “Sphere of Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception “ and who have also realized the stage of enlightenment of the anågåmí, non-returner, and of the arahat, can attain “cessation” nirodha-samåpatti. This is the temporary suspension of citta, cetasikas and mind-produced rúpa. Rúpas produced by kamma, temperature and nutriment, in the case of human beings, and rúpas produced by kamma and temperature, in the case of beings in the Brahma plane, continue to arise. When they emerge from cessation, the first citta which arises is the phala-citta, fruition-consciousness (lokuttara vipåkacitta), which has nibbåna as its object. For the anågåmí it is the phala-citta of the anågåmí and for the arahat it is the phala-citta of the arahat. This citta is conditioned by the preceding citta, the arúpa-jhånacitta of the fourth stage which occurred prior to cessation. Thus, the force of proximity is not destroyed by the temporary suspension of citta. It is the same in the case of rebirth in the asañña-satta plane, the plane where there is only rúpa. When the lifespan in that plane is over and there is rebirth in the sensuous plane, the rebirth-consciousness is conditioned by the dying-consciousness which occurred prior to rebirth in the asañña-satta-plane. Thus, the force of proximity is not destroyed. “ Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 5:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: About Kerala and MahaBodhiSoceity & ROB EP Hi Krishnan, Thankyou for the extra personal details. Yes, it is less surprising to find that you are now in Bangalore and to hear about the Mahabodhi Society there. It’s great you had a chance to study some Pali there as well. Perhaps you’ll be able to help us out from time to time with it. You’re right about Palakkad, I don’t know it;-) I don’t want to pre-empt Rob Ep’ s reply to you, but I’d like to comment that I think the points you are making below are very perceptive indeed and show quite some Abhidhamma knowledge and understanding already. I look forward to hearing more from you. Sarah ============================ --- dark knight wrote: > Even though it's told that noting is a wonderfull > tool, > but while noting, aren't we involving our mental > faculties ?ie, labelling as "thinking", or > "imagining", etc. ? this process thus involves > recollection. In that view, how is it different from > thinking ? only that one knows that one is thinking. > Doesn't this also increase one's feeling of doership > or ego sense ? > > With Metta, > Krishnan. > > PS : As I understand very little of Abhidhamma, I > request all who are kind enough to clarify this doubt > using minimum of Abhidhamma. > POST TO ME --- dark knight wrote: > > It's a real surprise to hear that you are very > familiar with Kerala ! > Actually I am from Palakkad (don't tell me you know > abt palakkad !!), 15446 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Thank you, Anthony. this is wonderful! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/4/02 12:43:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@h... writes: > > Dear Howard and all, > > Here is an extract from Majjhima 95 about safeguarding the truth. > > "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? > > To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the > > safeguarding of the truth." > > "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion > that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, > Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one > safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But > > it is not yet an awakening to the truth. > > "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has > something > reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered > views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion > that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, > Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one > safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But > > it is not yet an awakening to the truth." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn095.html > > with metta / Antony. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15447 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 10:00am Subject: anapanasati, Part 4 We should go back to the third tetrad of the sutta on mindfulness of breathing: (IX) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the (manner of) consciousness². (X) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in gladdening the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness². (XI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in concentrating the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out concentrating the (manner of) consciousness². (XII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in liberating the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness²- on that occasion, monks, a monk abides contemplating citta in citta, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world. I do not say, monks, that there is mindfulness of breathing in one who is forgetful and does not clearly comprehend. That is why on that occasion, monks, a monk abides contemplating citta in citta, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world. The Visuddhimagga states: IX: In the third tetrad the experiencing of the (manner of) consciousness must be understood to be through four jhanas. As regards the words in the third tetrad: ³(X) I shall breathe in...breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness², the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 231) states that there is gladdening in two ways, namely through concentration and through insight. We read: ŒHow through concentration? He attains the two jhånas in which happiness (piti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them he inspires the mind with gladness, instils gladness into it, by means of the happiness associated with the jhåna. How through insight? After entering upon and emerging from one of the two jhånas accompanied by happiness he comprehends with insight that happiness associated with the jhåna as liable to destruction and to fall, thus at the actual time of insight he inspires the mind with gladness, instils gladness into it by making the happiness associated with jhåna the object.¹ XI: Concentrating (samaadaha.m) the (manner of) consciousness:"evenly (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics... When the yogavacara, the practitioner, concentrates on the meditation subject, in this case, breath, he needs right understanding and also samadhi that concentrates again and again and again, so that it can become access concentration and attainment concentration when he attains jhana. When he can have jhanacitta for many moments, there are no cittas of the sense sphere and no bhavangacittas in between. His concentration on the meditation subject is stable. The word evenly applies to jhana, when there is no disturbance by sense impressions. When he emerges from jhana and he can develop insight, there is momentray concentration with the citta that realizes the happiness of jhana as a dhamma arising and falling away. The Visuddhinmagga speaks about . The Vis. I, note 3 explains that no insight comes about without momentary concentration. As regards the clause: ³(XII) I shall breathe in... breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness², the Visuddhimagga explains that this also must be understood as pertaining to jhåna as well as to insight. In the first jhåna one is liberated from the ³hindrances², although they are not eradicated, and in each subsequent stage of jhåna one is liberated from the jhåna-factors, specific cetasikas which are developed in order to eliminate the hindrances. The jhåna-factors are subsequently abandoned when one is no longer dependent on them and one is able to attain a higher and more subtle stage of jhåna. After emerging from jhåna the jhånacitta is comprehended with insight. We read (Visuddhimagga VIII, 233): Œ... at the actual time of insight he delivers, liberates the mind from the perception of permanence by means of the contemplation of impermanence, from the perception of pleasure by means of the contemplation of dukkha (suffering), from the perception of self by means of the contemplation of not self, from delight by means of the contemplation of dispassion, from greed by means of the contemplation of fading away, from arousing by means of the contemplation of cessation, from grasping by means of the contemplation of relinquishment...² As to the words, , we read in a footnote (Vis. VIII, 234, note 64): Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance is one of the higher stages of insight knowledge (the sixth maha-vipassana ~naa.na), when panna has become more and more detached from conditioned realities, sees their danger and disadvantage. At the end of this tetrad, the Vis. states that this tetrad deals with contemplation of citta. The Commentary to the sutta, the Papa~ncasuudanii, explains the words of the sutta: , here this is the explanation: a monk who proceeds by the method, etc... although he makes the sign(nimitta) of the in-and-outbreathing the object, is nevertheless called someone who contemplates citta in citta, because the citta of that monk proceeds by establishing sati and sampaja~n~na (pa~n~naa) with regard to the object. Because there cannot be the development of mindfulness of breathing for someone who is forgetful and without clear comprehension. That is why, by experiencing the citta as object,(it is said) The Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta (the Papa~ncasuudanii, translated by Ven. Soma) states that just as in the case of body and feelings, citta should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up. Nina: these contemplations refer to the stages of insight: in the course of insight there is a clearer understanding of the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta, and hence a growing detachment from conditioned dhammas. When citta appears panna should see citta in citta, not a self in citta. Citta knows an object, it does not last and it is not self who knows an object. **** Nina 15448 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 10:00am Subject: omission of memory Dear Rob M, Ven. Nyanaponika in Abh Studies has in the Appendix: the Omission of Memory in the List. Maybe you have read it, but if not, I thought it would interest you. You were wondering about sa~n~naa, and the role of memory. He also mentions the later Buddhist schools. Best wishes from Nina. 15449 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Sarah, I don't get it. I didn't make it all the way to the end of your post, but in what I did read, except for Jon's opinion, I didn't see anything about discriminating between concept and reality, or any description of a pure experience devoid of concept, or anything about the fundamental incomprehensibility (vis a vis clear comprehension) of concepts. Could you clarify? thanks, Larry ------------------------ Sarah wrote: Hi Larry (& Kom), In your posts to Kom, you mention (with regard to sections of the Satipatthana sutta) "overly contemplative and therefore necessarily conceptual", "conceptual cognition", "naming" and "panna is conceptual". On the contrary, I understand all the sections in the sutta to be referring to paramattha dhammas and to the development of sati sampajanna (right awareness and understanding) of these objects. It will depend on accumulations which objects are objects at any given moment- no rule. The development of satipatthana is not conceptual, but the development of the Path. Let me quote from 2 past posts in support of these comments (apologies for being rather long for you): ***** QUOTE1. Sarah: When we were discussing the translations of the Satipatthana Sutta, Erik and I were discussing the limitations of 'focussing' and 'comprehending'. Afterwards, I checked the detail in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and sub-commentary on the use of sati-sampajanna and quote below from Soma Thera's translation p.34: ***** "Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. Clearly comprehending = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. Rightly = Correctly [aviparitam]. Entirely = By knowing in all ways [sabbakarapajananena]. Equally = By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparupari visesavaha-bhavena pavattiya]. Satima = "Mindful." Endowed with mindfulness that lays hold of the body as a subject of meditation, because this yogavacara (the man conversant with contemplative activity) contemplates with wisdom after laying hold of the object with mindfulness. There is nothing called contemplation without mindfulness. Therefore the Master said: "Mindfulness is necessary in all circumstances, O bhikkhus, I declare."[17] Necessary in all circumstances = Everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable. Or, that by the help of which the other proper Factors of Enlightenment [bojjhanga] are capable of being developed, is "necessary in all circumstances." Here, contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by mindfulness. To point out the things by the influence of which the meditation of the yogi prospers, is the purpose of the words, "Ardent, clearly comprehending, and mindful." " ***** I think the following quotes, (p.22) also help us to see importance of panna (wisdom) as being foremost, even when we are discussing satipatthana: ***** "Since there is nothing called spiritual development [bhavana] without laying hold on something whatsoever in material form, feeling, consciousness and mental objects [kaya vedana citta dhammesu kiñci dhammam anamasitva] they (Santati and Patacara) too overcame sorrow and lamentation just by this Way of Mindfulness. For the hearers [savaka], namely, the disciples of the Buddha, there is no attainment of the Noble Path [Ariya Magga] possible, except by practicing the subject of meditation [kammatthana] of the Four Truths [Catu Sacca]. Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom [pañña bhavana]. Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness." ***** Sarah: In the commentary notes under 'kayanupassi', we read more detail about the objects of sati-sampajanna, what read to be the paramattha dhammas (p33): ***** "In this body, apart from the above mentioned collection, there is seen no body, man, woman or anything else. Beings engender wrong belief, in many ways, in the bare groups of things mentioned above. Therefore the men of old said: What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free. What he sees = What man or woman he sees. Why, is there no seeing of man or a woman with the eye? There is. "I see a woman," "I see a man." -- these statements refer to what he sees by way of ordinary perception. That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [rupayatana] in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form [viparita gahavasena miccha parikappita rupatta]. Or the meaning is: the absence of perception which is called the seeing of primary and derived materiality, beginning with things such as the hair of the head, owing to non-cognizability of the collective nature of an object like a man or woman by eye-consciousness [kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam ditthi na hoti acakkhuviññana viññeyyatta]. What is seen that he does not properly see = He does not see, according to reality by the eye of wisdom, the sense-basis which exists, the collection of primary and derived materiality beginning with hair of the head and the like [yam rupayatanam kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam dittham tam pañña-cakkhuna bhutato na passati]. Not seeing properly he is shackled = Not seeing this body as it actually is, with the eye of wisdom, he thinks: "This is mine, this am I, this is my self," and is bound with the fetter of defilement [imam attabhavam yathabhutam paññacakkhuna apassanto etam mama esohamasmi eso me attati kilesa bandhanena bajjhati]." ***** Sarah: We sometimes discuss the value of the abhidhamma when reading suttas and the following commentary note to the Satipatthana Sutta is one example (amongst many far more detailed ones) of this, followed by a reference to 'objects visual' as requested;-) (p.41): ***** "Consciousness and mental objects, too, should be contemplated upon by way of the diversity of the division of object (arammana], dominance [adhipati], conascence [sahajata], plane [bhumi], causal action [kamma], result [vipaka], non-causative functional process [kriya], and so forth [adi], beginning with impermanence [aniccadinam anupassananam vesena] and by way of the division of consciousness that is with passion and so forth come down in the portion of analytical exposition [niddesavare agatasaragadi bhedañca vasena]. Or the divisions of object... non-causative functional process and so forth. Contemplation should be done by way of the division of the blue and so forth pertaining to the variety of objects visual and so forth [rupadi arammana nanattassa niladi tabbhedassa); ..." ***** END QUOTE 1 QUOTE 2. Jon The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object of seeing consciousness). So the visible object at that moment falls under both the 'rupas' section and the 'mind object' section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying realities and are not in themselves absolutes. Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a 'dhamma'; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from 'The Way of Mindfulness' Jon Section on Mental Objects 2. The Aggregates "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks: 'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and thus is the disappearance of material form. Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the disappearance of feeling. Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception. Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations; and thus is the disappearance of the formations. Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally ... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] ********** END QUOTE 2 Larry, I hope I haven't strained your patience and you've found something useful here. Sarah p.s I really liked your comment to Rob M about studying abhidhamma. 15450 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on the Satipatthana Suttas, Pa~n~natti, and Dhammas Hi Howard, I like it. It looks like a good way to teach satipatthana. I still maintain though that the distinction between concept and reality is a conceptual distinction not found in experience. That is to say it is not possible to experience one without the other. If I were a rash person I might even say when a citta cognizes an object that is conceptuality, taking one thing, an experience, for another, the object. Of course conceptual distinctions could be useful. Larry 15451 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 2:28pm Subject: Re: omission of memory Hi Nina, Thank you for the pointer. I will read this when I get home this weekend. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > Ven. Nyanaponika in Abh Studies has in the Appendix: the Omission of Memory > in the List. Maybe you have read it, but if not, I thought it would interest > you. You were wondering about sa~n~naa, and the role of memory. He also > mentions the later Buddhist schools. > Best wishes > from Nina. 15452 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 4:06pm Subject: ADL ch. 23 (3) http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 23 (3) The sotåpanna has not eradicated all defilements. One may wonder whether he can still talk in an unpleasant way to others. Of the ten kinds of akusala kamma-patha (unwholesome courses of action) there are four akusala kamma-patha through speech which are: lying, slandering, rude speech and idle, useless talk. The sotåpanna has eradicated lying. He can still say unpleasant things about others or use harsh speech, but not to the extent that it would lead to rebirth in a woeful plane. The sotåpanna cannot be reborn in a woeful plane anymore. Useless talk is speech which has not as objective dåna, síla or bhåvanå. This is not eradicated by the sotåpanna, it can only be eradicated by the arahat. The question may arise whether it is necessary to classify defilements in such a detailed way. The purpose of the study of the Abhidhamma is right understanding of realities. If one does not study at all one will not be able to judge what is the right Path and what the wrong Path. We do not live in the Buddha's time; since we cannot hear the teachings directly from him, we are dependent on the teachings as they come to us through the scriptures. Therefore, it is beneficial to study the scriptures and also the Abhidhamma. It depends on one's personal inclination to what extent one will study the details about realities. Learning about the different ways of classifying defilements helps us to see their different aspects. For instance, ditthi is classified under the group of defilements known as the latent tendencies or proclivities (anusayas) and it is also classified as one of the åsavas, ``cankers´´ or ``influxes´´, which is another group of defilements. Furthermore, defilements are classified as ways of clinging (upådånas); as we have seen, three classes of ditthi are classified under this group of defilements. Defilements are also classified as ``bonds´´ (ganthas), as ``hindrances´´ (nívaranas), and in several other ways. Each way of classifying shows us a different aspect of defilements and thus we understand better how deeply accumulated defilements are and how difficult it is to eradicate them. Only magga-cittas (lokuttara kusala cittas) can eradicate them. Not all defilements can be eradicated by the magga-citta of the first stage of enlightenment. As we have seen, there are four stages of enlightenment (the stages of the sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí, the anågåmí and the arahat), and for each of these stages there is a magga-citta which experiences nibbåna and eradicates defilements. Defilements are progressively eradicated by the magga-citta at each of the four stages of enlightenment. Thus, there are four types of magga-citta. There are four types of phala-citta (lokuttara vipåkacitta or ``fruition-consciousness´´) which are the results of the four magga-cittas. Only the magga-citta eradicates defilements; the phala-citta, which also experiences nibbåna, is vipåka, result of the magga-citta. At the moment of enlightenment nibbåna is the object which is experienced by the lokuttara citta. Some people think that nibbåna is a place which one can reach, a plane of life. In order to have more understanding of what nibbåna is, we have to consider what our life now is: nåma and rúpa arising and falling away. Our life is dukkha, because what arises and falls away is unsatisfactory. If nibbåna would be a plane where we would continue to live, there would be no end to the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, no end to dukkha. Nibbåna, however, is the unconditioned dhamma, it does not arise and fall away. Nibbåna is therefore the end of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, the end of birth, old age, sickness and death. Nibbåna is the end to dukkha. When one has attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotåpanna, it is certain that there will eventually be an end to the cycle of birth and death, an end to dukkha. When the person who is not an arahat dies, the last citta of his life, the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness) is succeeded by the patisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness) of the next life and thus life goes on. So long as there are defilements life has to continue. The fact that we are here in the human plane is conditioned by defilements. Even if there is birth in a heavenly plane, in a rúpa-brahma plane or in an arúpa-brahma plane, it is conditioned by defilements. The arahat has no more defilements, he does not have to be reborn in any plane. The arahat has to die, because he was born and birth has to be followed by death. However, for him the cuti-citta will not be succeeded by a patisandhi-citta. Thus, for him there will not be the arising of nåma and rúpa in a new life any more, and this means the end to the cycle of birth and death. For some people this would seem to be the annihilation of life, something which is frightening. We can make ourselves believe that life is good and that it should continue forever, but if we develop insight we will see more and more that life is nåma-elements and rúpa-elements which arise because of their own conditions and then have to fall away; they are beyond control, nobody can cause them to remain. We cannot cause the arising of happy feeling, if it arises it does so because of its own conditions. It is only present for an extremely short while and then there may be unhappy feeling. The ideas we used to have about life and happiness will gradually be changed. If one still clings to the ``self´´ one is anxious about what will happen to the ``self´´ after one´s death. For the arahat the question of what will happen after his death does not occur; he has no more defilements and thus no more clinging to life. The ariyan knows that what the non-ariyan takes for happiness is dukkha; the non-ariyan takes for misery what the ariyan knows as happiness. The development of wisdom brings a kind of happiness which is different from what one used to take for happiness. Our defilements are the real cause of disturbance, worry and restlessness, they are the cause of all sorrow. Nibbåna is the end of lobha, dosa and moha, and thus the end of all sorrow. When one is not an ariyan one cannot really understand what nibbåna is. If we cannot experience yet the true nature of the conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away, we cannot experience the unconditioned dhamma, the dhamma which does not arise and fall away. 15453 From: egberdina Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 5:49pm Subject: Cittas as condition Hi all, It is often said that a citta and cetasikas are conditions for the next citta and cetasikas. (If I have got that wrong then please ignore the rest of this post). I have been wondering about this, and this is what I have come up with so far. A citta is a conditioned reality, and is manifested as experience, which is absolute. The citta, however, is not its own cause. It is not a thing in itself, but a coming together of a number of other things, which are not experienced. How can this citta then be a condition for the next or a future one? Wouldn't it be more coherent to say that the conditions for a citta are the conditions for the next or a future citta? If the conditions change or are different, the citta is different. As a parallel, we do not say that whatever is reflected in a mirror at a certain time is a condition for it being reflected again the next moment. Likewise seeing a slightly pale aquamarine is not a conditon for the seeing of a slightly pale aquamarine, but the conditions for the seeing of a slightly pale aquamarine are the conditions for that to arise again. (I wish I hadn't chosen a slightly pale aquamarine. From direct experience, it is a lot to type. Next time I'll just use blue :-) ) All the best Herman 15454 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on the Satipatthana Suttas, Pa~n~natti, and Dhammas Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/4/02 4:51:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, I like it. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm pleased. (As least one person on this list will like it! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- It looks like a good way to teach satipatthana. I> > still maintain though that the distinction between concept and reality > is a conceptual distinction not found in experience. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Larry, you just brought a BIG gin to my face! Please carefully re-read this last sentence of yours and tell me if it doen't bring a grin to your face! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- That is to say it> > is not possible to experience one without the other. If I were a rash > person I might even say when a citta cognizes an object that is > conceptuality, taking one thing, an experience, for another, the object. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think so. There's a lot of processing going on in our cognition, but vi~n~nana alone I don't think invoves conceptual processing. Recognition, on the other hand, definitely does. It may be true, and I suspect it is, that there are levels upon levels of conceptual construction, but at the base of all this is vi~n~nana of various sorts. Of course, vi~n~nana, itself, is a separative knowing, conditioned by our kammic formations,and while this doesn't make it conceptual, it does make it conditioned by avijja, thus, imperfect. ------------------------------------------------------ > Of course conceptual distinctions could be useful. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Sure can be! Even the Buddha adopted them in order to function "in this world" and to teach the Dhamma. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15455 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 11:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] subtle point, to Kom Dear Nina, I asked her this questions in two different ways. One, I just gave her a print-out. The second one involved me botching your a question (on record, like usual), although I think I have got the answer nonetheless. The answer (that I want to hear and understand) is that she said Bodily Kamma is not committed only through kaya-vinnatti. Kaya-vinnatti is a way, but committing bodily-kamma doesn't necessarily involve this rupa. If one commits a kamma without wanting to communicate the meaning (communicating meaning such as the godfather nodding to his assasin to kill his enemy), then there is no kaya-vinnatti involves. The other reminders she gave in this area include: 1) There doesn't need to be a third party involved to communicate meaning. We may talk to ourselves, or signal bodily involving meanings even if there is no other third party around. 2) She said that if we understand that this rupa only lasts one citta moment, at the point where the citta conditions the communication of meanings, then we may understand this better. This is over my head, so I don't think I can explain any more. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Nina van Gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 10:05 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] subtle point, to Kom > > > Dear Kom, I have a question for A. Sujin, but > only when there is time. The > Foundation has made studies of subtle points, and > these are in a report. One > of these is bodily intimation, kaya vi~n~natti > rupa, which is the rupa > conditioning the conveying of a meaning through > the bodysense, for example > through gestures. It is also the body-door of > kamma. I read in many passages > about the monk who is walking, such as in the > Fruits of Recluseship, the thought "Let me go forward" arises, the > mind-originated air element > arises together with that thought, producing > bodily intimation.> > He does not convey a meaning here, but can we say > it is the bodydoor of his > kusala kamma since he develops samatha and > vipassana while walking? > For a long time I have been wondering about this. > Do you have the report? If > not you could ask Kh Anop. It has many interesting items. > Have a very good and fruitful trip with A. Sujin, > take good care, > Nina. > > > 15456 From: Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 8:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Thoughts on the Satipatthana Suttas, Pa~n~natti, and Dhammas Hi Howard, I'm afraid you will have to explain your grin. I think my basic argument is that a concept is an equation that isn't quite true. One thing, a sound that is spelled h o w a r d, for example, equals another thing, i.e. you. In citta process citta equals arammana. I agree with the phenomenalist view that all arammanas are strictly speaking hypothetical, or inferred. Nevertheless it makes sense to assume that there are objects out there. All that we can know about those objects is citta. Therefore, for all practical purposes, citta equals arammana (but not really) and is necessarily conceptual [if you buy the basic premise]. Larry -------------------- Howard wrote: Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/4/02 4:51:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi Howard, I like it. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm pleased. (As least one person on this list will like it! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- It looks like a good way to teach satipatthana. I> still maintain though that the distinction between concept and reality is a conceptual distinction not found in experience. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Larry, you just brought a BIG gin to my face! Please carefully re-read this last sentence of yours and tell me if it doen't bring a grin to your face! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- That is to say it> is not possible to experience one without the other. If I were a rash person I might even say when a citta cognizes an object that is conceptuality, taking one thing, an experience, for another, the object. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think so. There's a lot of processing going on in our cognition, but vi~n~nana alone I don't think invoves conceptual processing. Recognition, on the other hand, definitely does. It may be true, and I suspect it is, that there are levels upon levels of conceptual construction, but at the base of all this is vi~n~nana of various sorts. Of course, vi~n~nana, itself, is a separative knowing, conditioned by our kammic formations,and while this doesn't make it conceptual, it does make it conditioned by avijja, thus, imperfect. ---------------------------------------------- Of course conceptual distinctions could be useful. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure can be! Even the Buddha adopted them in order to function "in this world" and to teach the Dhamma. 15457 From: dark knight Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 11:48pm Subject: A doubt regarding 'Noting'. Hello Robert Ep, I have a small doubt reg. "noting" mentioned in your mail attached below. Message: 11 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:26:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Epstein Subject: Re: Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) "...and in the Theravadan tradition I happened to be involved with at the time, would use the device of 'noting' the breath to involve the mind in the attention of breathing. One would 'note' gently with the mind 'rising' and 'falling' with the in and out breath, if the place of following the breath were the 'belly'. It was also possible to note breathing out and breathing in at the nostrils or with other locations of the breath. One would follow the attention and see where it went, if it departed from the breath and note what it did, such as 'thinking', 'imagining', 'feeling discomfort'; whatever the object of attention was. The noting was a gross method for sort of marking one's place and one would hopefully go beyond this to discern the exact sensation or thought or movement of the breath to the extent possible." Even though it's told that noting is a wonderfull tool, but while noting, aren't we involving our mental faculties ?ie, labelling as "thinking", or "imagining", etc. ? this process thus involves recollection. In that view, how is it different from thinking ? only that one knows that one is thinking. Doesn't this also increase one's feeling of doership or ego sense ? With Metta, Krishnan. PS : As I understand very little of Abhidhamma, I request all who are kind enough to clarify this doubt using minimum of Abhidhamma. 15458 From: epsteinrob Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 0:18am Subject: Re: A doubt regarding 'Noting'. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., dark knight wrote: > Hello Robert Ep, > > I have a small doubt reg. "noting" mentioned in your > mail attached below. > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:26:29 -0700 (PDT) > From: Robert Epstein > Subject: Re: Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor > Point ...etc) > "...and in the Theravadan tradition I happened > to be involved with at the time, > would use the device of 'noting' the breath to > involve the mind in the attention > of breathing. One would 'note' gently with the > mind 'rising' and 'falling' with > the in and out breath, if the place of following > the breath were the 'belly'. It > was also possible to note breathing out and > breathing in at the nostrils or > with other locations of the breath. One would > follow the attention and see where > it went, if it departed from the breath and > note what it did, such as > 'thinking', 'imagining', 'feeling discomfort'; > whatever the object of attention was. The > noting was a gross method for sort of marking > one's place and one would hopefully > go beyond this to discern the exact sensation > or thought or movement of the > breath to the extent possible." > > Even though it's told that noting is a wonderfull > tool, but while noting, aren't we involving our mental > faculties ?ie, labelling as "thinking", or > "imagining", etc. ? this process thus involves > recollection. In that view, how is it different from > thinking ? only that one knows that one is thinking. > Doesn't this also increase one's feeling of doership > or ego sense ? > With Metta, > Krishnan. Dear Krishnan, You are absolutely right that this technique uses the mental faculty. What it does is employ the mental faculty in an 'expedient means' of training it to harmonize with mindfulness. Since it is so hard to keep track of mental activity, this method allows the mind to be 'yoked' to the process underway. Since the thinking process is being used as a mindfulness practice, it takes it away from distraction and errant thoughts. The idea is to make the noting coincident with the breathing. If the mind stops paying attention to the breath, it is quickly obvious as the noting is no longer coordinated. In other practices, noting is not utilized. One may use noting or dispense with it, but the basic practice is the same. Best, Robert 15459 From: epsteinrob Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 0:31am Subject: Re: Cittas as condition --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > Hi all, > > It is often said that a citta and cetasikas are conditions for the > next citta and cetasikas. > (If I have got that wrong then please ignore the rest of this post). > > I have been wondering about this, and this is what I have come up > with so far. > > A citta is a conditioned reality, and is manifested as experience, > which is absolute. The citta, however, is not its own cause. It is > not a thing in itself, but a coming together of a number of other > things, which are not experienced. How can this citta then be a > condition for the next or a future one? Wouldn't it be more coherent > to say that the conditions for a citta are the conditions for the > next or a future citta? Couldn't be, then the second citta would be an exact duplicate of the first, and we'd be experiencing the same moment over and over again. but it does raise the question of what it is that interacts with the citta to change it into the next citta. It can't be the citta itself alone, or it too would merely replicate itself exactly, since it would have the exact same conditions as those which caused it. This is an interesting problem in the single citta theory. If the conditions change or are different, > the citta is different. The conditions for a specific citta change at every moment. Nothing ever stays the same for more than a moment. > As a parallel, we do not say that whatever is reflected in a mirror > at a certain time is a condition for it being reflected again the > next moment. No, but that which is reflected in the mirror is the condition for that which is next reflected in the mirror, not because of the mirror but because of the thing that is reflected and the way it changes. The mirror doesn't have to change for the object to change, and thus the reflection. Best, Robert 15460 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Problem Of The Greater Mind Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Another comment is with respect to your statement "Maybe it's > easiest > to just consider nibbana as nama by default or to say realities consist > of > cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana if that helps." Making nibbana a > category unto itself, with only cittas and cetasikas being nama has some > > virtue, but that's not the standard. ..... I think that different classifications are standard. Different ways of considering the same realities are helpful for different people and for all of us at different times. For example, the following extract is taken from the latest chapter from ADL. Here Nina is discussing different classifications of defilements” ***** “Learning about the different ways of classifying defilements helps us to see their different aspects. For instance, ditthi is classified under the group of defilements known as the latent tendencies or proclivities (anusayas) and it is also classified as one of the åsavas, ``cankers´´ or ``influxes´´, which is another group of defilements. Furthermore, defilements are classified as ways of clinging (upådånas); as we have seen, three classes of ditthi are classified under this group of defilements. Defilements are also classified as ``bonds´´ (ganthas), as ``hindrances´´ (nívaranas), and in several other ways. Each way of classifying shows us a different aspect of defilements and thus we understand better how deeply accumulated defilements are and how difficult it is to eradicate them.” ***** Back to the ‘standard’ for paramattha dhammas I mentioned, let me quote an extract from the end of the first chapter in ADL: ***** “Summarizing the four paramattha dhammas, they are: citta cetasika } conditioned dhammas (sankhara dhamma) rupa nibbana unconditioned dhamma (visankhara dhamma) When we study Dhamma it is essential to know which paramattha dhamma such or such reality is. If we do not know this we may be misled by conventional terms. We should, for example know that what we call 'body' are actually different rupa-paramattha dhammas, not citta or cetasika. We should know that nibbana is not citta or cetasika, but the fourth paramattha dhamma. Nibbana is the end of all conditioned realities. When an arahat, passes away, there is no more rebirth for him. All conditioned dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa, are impermanent (anicca). All conditioned dhammas are 'dukkha' since they are impermanent. All dhammas are anatta, not-self (in Pali: sabbe dhamma anatta). Thus, the conditioned dhammas are impermanent and dukkha. But all dhammas, that is, the four paramattha dhammas, nibbana included, have the characteristic of anatta, not-self.” ***** >The standard, evidentally, is to > include > nibbana in the category of nama. ..... This ‘standard’ or classification doesn’t say nibbana is not nama. ..... >Now, given the detailed precision of > Abhidhamma, talking nibbana as nama by *default* seems quite anomalous. ..... I understand what you're saying. For myself, if one classification is not helpful or seems anomalous in any way, I just leave it and consider other aspects or categories. The aim is to have less confusion and more understanding rather than the reverse. My experience is that often what seems anomalous or confusing one day is often clarified later. Just like learning a new movement in Tai Chi or yoga, one can only take it so far at one time. Later it ‘works’ easily and one wonders how it could have seemed so complication or confusing before. The following paragraph is also from the latest chapter in ADL and precedes the one I just quoted on defilements: ***** “The purpose of the study of the Abhidhamma is right understanding of realities. If one does not study at all one will not be able to judge what is the right Path and what the wrong Path. We do not live in the Buddha's time; since we cannot hear the teachings directly from him, we are dependent on the teachings as they come to us through the scriptures. Therefore, it is beneficial to study the scriptures and also the Abhidhamma. It depends on one's personal inclination to what extent one will study the details about realities.” ***** Perhaps Dan, Lisa, Kom and Jim will come back from their discussions with Khun Sujin at Niagara Falls this weekend full of good reminders and explanations for us all;-) Sarah ===== 15461 From: egberdina Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 1:22am Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on the Satipatthana Suttas, Pa~n~natti, and Dhammas Hi Larry , Howard et al, Larry, in your scheme of things, at what stage of seeing, for example, does conceptualisation kick in? I would agree that naming, noting, categorising are conceptual, but does this always occur? Do you allow for seeing without naming? Would you call that seeing conceptual? All the best Herman PS Do you think Howard made a freudian slip when he said he had a gin all over his face? :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, I like it. It looks like a good way to teach satipatthana. I > still maintain though that the distinction between concept and reality > is a conceptual distinction not found in experience. That is to say it > is not possible to experience one without the other. If I were a rash > person I might even say when a citta cognizes an object that is > conceptuality, taking one thing, an experience, for another, the object. > Of course conceptual distinctions could be useful. > > Larry 15462 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: "Hi Sarah, I don't get it. I didn't make it all the way to the end of your post......" ..... Thanks for the feedback;-). Let me try to clarify in point form here what I was trying to say or quote: 1.Contrary to popular opinion, understanding the suttas is not as simple as we’d like to believe;-) As you said to Rob M with regard to the abhidhamma being “deep, very deep” (or sth similar), I’d say the same with regard to suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta or the Anapanasati Sutta as Nina is helping to show. 2. Opinions of K.Sujin’s or anyone else’ students are only of any value if they are supported by the Pali canon. This is why I was quoting from the commentaries. 3. What is true or ‘real’ can be tested and proved. There are bound to be reactions of all kinds and doubts in the process. 4.Back to the details I quoted yesterday - I’ll just run through a few points: Sampaja~n~na refers to panna (wisdom) and sati. “Discerning rightly, entirely and equally”. This is not conceptual understanding. 5. Sati is “necessary in all circumstances” including “in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable”. In other words, no need to wait for a special time or place or practice. “Here, contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by mindfulness”. Again this is not theoretical but direct understanding (panna). 6. “Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom (pa~n~na bhavana)”. It then continues to add that the objects of panna and sati are “material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects”.These are all paramattha dhammas (realities), not concepts. 7.I quoted two sets of examples often causing most confusion. The first is the section of material form (rupa) under kayanupassi. We read that those that think they see “body, man, woman or anything else” are “shackled”.”Beings engender wrong belief, in many ways, in the bare groups of things mentioned above.” It explains that such a perception “owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis (rupayatana) in the highest sense." I t continues to refer to the “collection of primary and derived materiality” which needs to be seen by the “eye of wisdom”. In order to understand what rupayatana, primary and derived materiality etc are, we need to know a little from our Abhidhamma studies. The primary materiality refers to the 4 Great Elements of earth, water, fire, wind elements. Derived materiality (upada rupa) refers to the 24 derived rupas which depend on the 4 Greats. In other words, there are only realities, no concepts included. 8. To stress the importance of having some understanding of abhidhamma in order to understand the suttas and commentaries, I quoted a paragraph which started with: “Consciousness and mental objects, too, should be contemplated upon by way of the diversity of the division of object (arammana), dominance (adhipati), conascence (sahajata).......” In other words, understanding has to develop to realize the conditioned nature of realities or actualities. These are some of the conditions I have been referring to in recent posts. Don’t be misled by the use of ‘contemplated’ in this translation. It is talking about direct knowledge, not just thinking as now. Remember this is all from the commentary and subcommentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, not from the Abhidhamma. 9. Finally, I added Jon’s clear comments and the example he referred to under ‘mental objects’ or dhammanusati as often this is understood to refer to concepts again. With the quote given about the aggregates, it is clear that the ‘mental objects’ here refer to rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara (the other 50 cetasikas) and vinnana (=citta) - all of course are paramattha dhammas. ***** Hope this clarifies, Larry. Let me just add two brief quotes from the latest ADL chapter which may clarify further the meaning of ‘satipathana meditation’ which you’ve been asking about: ***** “So long as one has not become a sotåpanna one may deviate from the right Path, there can be wrong practice. There is wrong practice when, for example, one thinks that there should be awareness only of particular kinds of nåma and rúpa, instead of being aware of whatever kind of nåma or rúpa appears.” “If there is awareness of all kinds of nåma and rúpa appearing in daily life, paññå can investigate their characteristics and in this way it can gradually develop. We cannot expect a great deal of sati and paññå in the beginning. However, each moment of right awareness is fruitful, because it can condition further moments of awareness and thus it can be accumulated. When paññå realizes a phenomenon which appears as nåma or rúpa, clinging to the concept of self is gradually eliminated, until finally all latent tendencies of ditthi are eradicated by the magga-citta (lokuttara kusala citta) of the sotåpanna. Then ditthi will never arise again.” ***** Best wishes. Let me know if you’d like a subcommentary to my commentary on yesterday’s post;-) Sarah ========= 15463 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1) Hi Chris, Larry and All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Larry, Sarah and All, > > Have a look at 'Cetasikas' by Nina and see what you think. I'm > happy to go along with any strong preference anyone has - there is > nothing that I don't need to study and learn. Has anyone else got an > idea of something they would really like the group to study together? > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html ..... I think this is a very good suggestion of yours, but we don’t have to rush any decision and it would be good to hear comments and requests from others. It might even encourage Lucy back;-) With recent remarks about copyright in mind, before I suggested BB’s CMA as one possibility (someone had mentioned it before we started with ADL I recall), I had written to B.Bodhi himself about this. I received a very friendly reply to say that as BPS president (until the end of this year only) he could give us permission if we wished to use it for this purpose (now or later I assume). (It seems he’s intending to stay on in the States at a monastery in New Jersey, Bodhi Monastery (named after him), but will be visiting Sri Lanka in November to discuss the future of BPS. He’s continuing with his medical treatments and seems very content where he is.) In any case, it might be better to just quote or scan sections when they are relevant as we tend to do now than to go through the entire text here which might be very difficult for those coming in part way through or just too much abhidhamma for most;-) We don’t want to kill off all interest after all. Sarah ===== 15464 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 2:47am Subject: Re: PALI Hi Rob K, Back to the Kesamutti sutta (Kalama sutta) again. You wrote ages ago: ‘As you noted Bodhi and Soma both have ""it is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt"" they use proper for the Pali word 'ala.m' and this is its meaning, as is 'indeed' 'truly ', (or woodwards you may 'well'...) I think if we understand that the Buddha was saying it is quite natural, lawful, 'the way things should be' -- that doubt arises when there are the conditions for doubt. I think Bodhi and Soma aren't suggesting that Doubt is 'good' - rather that it is very proper and right that it should arise in such circumstances.” ***** Yes, I agree and these seem very good comments. I just came across ala.m elsewhere and this prompted me to look it up in the big dictionary: “suitable, fitly, aptly, rightly...in affirmative sentences: part of assurance and emphasis = for sure, very much (so), indeed, truly.........eg ‘alam eva kaatu.m’ - to be sure, this is to be done = this is proper to be done. A little confusing. We both voted for Woodward’s translation below As the passage is so often quoted (i.e. suggesting one should have doubt and so on), I think it would be useful to have a breakdown of the following passage from one of our Pali experts sometime (no disrespect to your Pali expertise of course, Rob;-). Many thanks indeed for helping me to find this. Sarah ===== > The pali is kankha and viccikicca - both usually > akusala, and having similar meaning of doubt. > > ""sa.m no, > bhante, amhaaka.m hoteva ka"nkhaa hoti vicikicchaa– `ko > su naama imesa.m bhavata.m sama.nabraahma.naana.m sacca.m > aaha, ko > musaa'"ti? "Ala~nhi vo, kaalaamaa, ka"nkhitu.m ala.m vicikicchitu.m. > Ka"nkhaniiyeva pana ‚ vo .thaane vicikicchaa uppannaa".--- "" > > I like Woodward (PTS): "When we listen to them sir, we have doubt and > wavering as to which of these worthies is speaking truth and which > speaks falsehood' > Yes, kalamas, you may well doubt , you may well waver. In a doubtful > matter wavering does arise." > uppannaa, I believe,means to 'arise'. > --------- 15465 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Question on Visual Image Processing --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 26-08-2002 19:56 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Hi Howard, Ken H and all, Hi Nina, Thank you for this message. Once again, you have given me a lot to think about. You said to Howard: > I recognize myself in your question, it is what I used > to ask A. Sujin: how far does visible object extend? Her only answer: > visible object is just what appears through the eyes, that is all. At that > time I was not satisfied, and I guess neither will you now. I had to > consider more. What is the citta like, when we ask such questions? Thinking, > and thinking and thinking. Since one citta only experiences one object, > there cannot be seeing while there is thinking, and then we shall never, > never know what visible object is. I saw that thinking in that way does not > help and I stopped asking such questions. > When we see individual colours, there is defining, not seeing. > ----------- The understanding that visible object is "just what appears through the eyes, that is all," strikes me as entirely satisfactory and I think it is exactly what I need to hear. Having learnt the futility of trying to control mindfulness, I may be tending to dismiss the possibility of right mindfulness. What you have said, seems to be the middle way; neither `trying' nor `giving up.' Kind regards Ken H 15466 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cittas as condition Hi, Rob (and Larry) - Rob, I think your reply is excellent. I'd like to add my 2 cents. In a message dated 9/5/02 3:32:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote:> Hi all, > > > > It is often said that a citta and cetasikas are conditions for the > > next citta and cetasikas. > > (If I have got that wrong then please ignore the rest of this post). > > > > I have been wondering about this, and this is what I have come up > > with so far. > > > > A citta is a conditioned reality, and is manifested as experience, > > which is absolute. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear on what you mean by "absolute" here, Larry. The experience -including both the fact of its occurrence and its characteristics - is conditioned. If, by "absolute" you mean being an actual event (and not fiction), I agree. ------------------------------------------------------- The citta, however, is not its own cause. It is > > > not a thing in itself, but a coming together of a number of other > > things, which are not experienced. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Two questions here: 1) I don't think that the citta *is* the coming together of the needed conditions. The coming together of the conditions (in sufficiently appropriate proximity) results in the arising of the citta, but is not identical with it. This is a matter of dependency, as I see it, but not identity. 2) Why are the conditions necessarily not experienced? Mightn't some or even all of them be experienced? ------------------------------------------------------ How can this citta then be a > > > condition for the next or a future one? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Why not? It's absence would result the the next (or future) one not arising, which is all that is required to make it a condition. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Wouldn't it be more coherent > > to say that the conditions for a citta are the conditions for the > > next or a future citta? > > Couldn't be, then the second citta would be an exact duplicate of the > first, and we'd be experiencing the same moment over and over again. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Perfect answer! --------------------------------------------------- > > but it does raise the question of what it is that interacts with the > citta to change it into the next citta. It can't be the citta itself > alone, or it too would merely replicate itself exactly, since it would > have the exact same conditions as those which caused it. This is an > interesting problem in the single citta theory. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that it is the fact that the current citta is not, itself, the sole condition for subsequent cittas, but other earlier cittas are also needed which is the telling point. Moreover, the current citta is not typically identical with any of the conditions that led to its arising, or even to a combination of them. It arose lawfully because of those conditions, but is, itself, novel. The current citta has numerous characteristics and involves numerous cetasikas of various types and intensities, none of which had to exist among the conditions that led to this citta, and these many characteristics and cetasikas serve as conditions that help determine the nature of subsequent cittas. ------------------------------------------------------- > > If the conditions change or are different, > > the citta is different. > > The conditions for a specific citta change at every moment. Nothing > ever stays the same for more than a moment. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps. Are all "moments" of the same duration? Maybe so, maybe not. I suspect not, but, in any case, why is this important? ----------------------------------------------------- > > > As a parallel, we do not say that whatever is reflected in a mirror > > at a certain time is a condition for it being reflected again the > > next moment. > > No, but that which is reflected in the mirror is the condition for that > which is next reflected in the mirror, not because of the mirror but > because of the thing that is reflected and the way it changes. The > mirror doesn't have to change for the object to change, and thus the > reflection. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again an excellent answer. Speaking conventionally, of course, the mirror is one of the conditions for seeing a reflection, the others being the objects reflected, the light bouncing off those objects towards the mirror, and the observer. The mirror is the condition least likely to change, but should any of them change, "what is reflected in the mirror" will change. Moreoever "what is reflected in the mirror" is unique only for a particular observer. For another observer, it is different. And, in a sense, what is reflected in the mirror for a given observer is in the mind of that observer, and DOES condition what is next reflected in the mirror for that observer, if anything at all. (Perhaps what the observer sees in the mirror causes him/her to immediately close his/her eyes or avert his/her gaze!) -------------------------------------------------- > > Best, > Robert > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15467 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Satipatthana Suttas, Pa~n~natti, and Dhammas Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/5/02 4:22:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > PS Do you think Howard made a freudian slip when he said he had a gin > all over his face? :-) > =============================== Hah!! ;-)) I missed that!!! Yeah, probably *was* a Freudian slip. I've had no alcohol for at least 15 years (to follow the precept), but the enjoyment (and inclination) remains well and alive, though inactive and subdued! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15468 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dreams Dear Howard, It is so kind of you to react immediately to my post, giving a tip. I printed it out. Lodewijk said he will try. When he woke up he thought of your tip, but not during a nightmare. It is one of those things we have to accept. When awake he thinks of the perfections, the factors of enlightebnment, the factors of the eightfold Path. With many thanks, Nina. op 03-09-2002 20:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:>> > ============================== > I hope your husband manages to find a "quick fix". If not, there is a > longer term procedure that might help, the cultivation of lucid dreaming, > where one is aware during a dream that it *is* a dream. (It is a bringing of > mindfulness into the dream state.) What is useful in this is, among other > things, the ability to take some control over what occurs in the dream, to > change things, to greet "monsters" with lovingkindness. It really can work, > but it requires regular practice. I used to engage in it a bit, and it is > quite amazing. (But I'm no expert at all.) 15469 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 10:00am Subject: degrees of akusala kamma patha Dear Rob M, there was a question posed to you about the degree of akusala kamma, and the text about this. Since you are on the way a lot, may I but in? The Expositor I, Book I, Part II, ch V, 97: about killing: I would like the Pali of physical virtue. I hope this clarifies, Nina. 15470 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections, Wisdom, Ch 5, no 5 Perfections, Wisdom, Ch 5, no 5 : We read in the ³Mahåniddesa, ³Attadanda Sutta²: The word ³man² is used here with regard to someone who is inclined to nibbåna. This means, that ³men² are people in this world who perform generous deeds, undertake síla, observe the fastday, prepare water for drinking and for other uses, sweep the grounds, pay respect to the stupa, develop kusala of the three dhåtus, elements 4), that should be developed. They do not develop kusala because of rebirth, because of a plane of existence they want to attain, because they want to continue in the cycle of birth and death. They have as their goal to depart from dukkha, they are humble and they are inclined to nibbåna. Because of this goal they will develop all kinds of kusala. They are called ³men², because they are inclined to nibbåna. Someone who has not understood the true meaning of dukkha may hope for the end of dukkha in as far as he sees dukkha as merely getting what he does not wish for. Or he may just want to have no more suffering. However, when someone has understanding of the meaning of dukkha, his goal is departing from dukkha, in the sense of being inclined to nibbåna, which is the end of dukkha inherent in all conditioned dhammas. This kind of understanding has as foundation listening to the Dhamma and seeing the danger in akusala, seeing the disadvantage, suffering and danger of rebirth, of the arising of nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas. Akusala dhammas arise very often, since they are conditioned by all the akusala we have accumulated. If we see the benefit of the development of the perfections, we should find out whether in our daily life kusala arises often or whether it arises very seldom. When kusala arises we should know whether it has become firmer and whether it has reached already the degree of a perfection. Someone may have performed kusala time and again, also before he listened to the Dhamma but, after he listened to the Dhamma and he learnt that the perfections are an essential condition for the realization of the four noble Truths, his sincerity and unshakable determination to further develop kusala increases. We read in the Commentary to the ³Mahåniddesa² of the Khuddhaka Nikåya, the Commentary to the ³Guhattaka Sutta-niddesa², ³the Cave²: The term ³paññå² means: it penetrates. What does it penetrate? It penetrates the noble Truths, the Truth of, ³This is dukkha...² The noble Truth of dukkha is not merely dukkha which is suffering, oppressing us in daily life, such as loss of possessions, blame, pain etc. The noble Truth of dukkha is the truth that nothing is permanent, that whatever arises such as seeing, hearing, thinking, happiness or pain arises just for an extremely short moment and then disappears. Knowing, ³this is dukkha², means, knowing that what arises and falls away immediately is dukkha. We read further on in the Commentary quoted above: That kind of paññå is an indriya, a controlling faculty, in the sense of predominance, because it overcomes ignorance, avijjå. Whenever paññå does not arise, we are overcome by ignorance. The characteristic of paññå is the opposite of that of ignorance. Ignorance can be overcome when paññå arises. We read further on: This kind of paññå has the characteristic of illuminating and of penetration. As when a lamp burns at night in a four-walled house the darkness ceases, light manifests itself, so paññå has illuminating as its characteristic 5) . So long as the truth has not been realized we cannot speak of illumination. One merely begins to understand realities. However, paññå which has the characteristic of illuminating can realize the truth when the element of nåma, the element which experiences, appears through the mind-door. Then there is no characteristic of rúpa blended in with the characteristic of nåma-dhåtu, the element of nåma. That is the meaning of illumination 6). We read further on: To the wise at a single sitting the ten thousand world-spheres appear as of one light. ****** Footnotes: 4. These probably are: kusala which is of the sense sphere, kusala which is rúpa jhåna and kusala which is arúpa jhåna. 5. See also The Expositor, Atthasåliní, I, Book I, Part IV, Ch I, 122. 6. When insight knowledge arises the characteristic of nåma appears through the mind-door and nåma is clearly distinguished from rúpa. 15471 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 6:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dreams Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/5/02 1:01:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > It is so kind of you to react immediately to my post, giving a tip. I > printed it out. Lodewijk said he will try. When he woke up he thought of > your tip, but not during a nightmare. It is one of those things we have to > accept. > When awake he thinks of the perfections, the factors of enlightebnment, the > factors of the eightfold Path. > With many thanks, > Nina. > =========================== I hope it is helpful. What seems to be important is to keep the idea of being aware during dreaming up front in one's mind frequently during the waking state, and especially right before going to sleep and when temporarily awakening from sleep. Also suggested is "dream cultivation": planning, while still awake, on specific dream content and on reacting in specific ways to dream events, and also presetting in the mind a "cue" to notice in a dream, a cue that reminds one that he/she is dreaming - for example, noticing one's hands in the dream. Also, the intention to notice in a dream anything that is odd, abnormal, strange, or "impossible" sometimes bears fruit in anabling the dreamer to realize that "it is just a dream". There are many books and papers on this, but the main thing is regularity of practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15472 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Satipatthana Suttas, Pa~n~natti, and Dhammas Herman: "Larry, in your scheme of things, at what stage of seeing, for example, does conceptualisation kick in?" Hi Herman, off hand I would say at contact (please see recent reply to Howard on this thread). However, this is really a very difficult question, and basically I don't have a clue. This study is a work in progress depending on a better understanding of citta process and "reality". Larry 15473 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Sarah, First, on the subject of concepts, I basically disagree with the received wisdom. What is a concept if not a ditthi? There are true and correct ditthi and untrue and incorrect ditthi. Panna is just a true ditthi. In its simplest form, a correct name. Understanding is a psychological phenomenon which I don't really understand (haha). So let's wait on that one. Second, as for meditation, what I am hearing as implication from you, Jon, Robert, and Nina is don't bother to meditate because you will probably get it wrong. Instead, just study and eventually the truth will accumulate in your continuum. I think this is bad advice. What I would like instead is for you to encourage people to meditate but be open to correction. Beyond that, what I would really like is for Acharn Sujin to give meditation instruction. As recent discussions have shown, there are many ways of implementing this 'only way' of satipatthana. I would like to see what sort of program she could come up with. Larry 15474 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on the Satipatthana Suttas, Pa~n~natti, and Dhammas Hi, Larry (and Herman) - In a message dated 9/5/02 1:57:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Herman: "Larry, in your scheme of things, at what stage of seeing, for > example, does conceptualisation kick in?" > > Hi Herman, off hand I would say at contact (please see recent reply to > Howard on this thread). However, this is really a very difficult > question, and basically I don't have a clue. This study is a work in > progress depending on a better understanding of citta process and > "reality". > > Larry > ========================== As I see it, a concept is an idea that abstracts from a number of experiences, elementary or not, based on extracting of "patterns". I see the patterns as not residing solely in (and among) the elements of our experience alone, but as *emerging* from those experiences and from the mental processing i.e., with both of these as conditions for that emergence. Change the experiences or change the mode of processing (or the mental formations conditioning the mode of processing), and different patterns (and concepts) will emerge. Once concepts are formed, they serve as overlays/templates for direct experience - they serve as filters creating "the world that we live in". The concept-forming and the overlaying are done, I believe, at a level which is typically *way* below the threshhold of the worldling's awareness. So, for all *practical* purposes, but not ultimately, all is concept-only. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15475 From: Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 3:44pm Subject: ADLch. 23 (4) http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 23 (4) As we have seen, there are four paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika, rúpa and nibbåna. Citta, cetasika and rúpa are realities which arise and fall away, they are conditioned dhammas and thus dukkha. Nibbåna does not arise and fall away; it has no conditions through which it arises, it is an unconditioned dhamma. Nibbåna is the end to dukkha. If there were no cessation of dukkha the Buddha would not have taught the Path leading to the cessation of dukkha. However, since there is the cessation of dukkha, the Buddha taught the Path leading to it. We read in the Verses of Uplift (Udåna, chapter VIII, 3, Khuddaka Nikåya) that the Buddha, while he was staying in Anåthapindika's Park, said to the monks: Monks, there is a not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. Monks, if that unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded were not, there would be apparent no escape from this here that is born, become, made, compounded. But since, monks, there is an unborn... therefore the escape from this here that is born, become... is apparent. Nibbåna can be experienced at the attainment of enlightenment, but enlightenment cannot be attained unless paññå has been developed to the degree that it can experience the conditioned dhammas as they are: impermanent, dukkha and non-self (anattå). At the attainment of enlightenment the magga-citta (lokuttara kusala citta) directly experiences nibbåna. When the magga-citta has fallen away, it is succeeded immediately by the phala-citta (lokuttara vipåkacitta) which experiences the same object. When one performs kåmåvacara kusala kamma (kusala kamma of the sensuous plane of consciousness) the vipåka does not follow immediately. Even if the vipåka were to arise soon after the kamma, it could never arise in the same process of citta. When one attains rúpa-jhåna or arúpa-jhåna, the vipåkacitta, if it arises, only arises in a next life. It is different with the magga-citta, this has to be followed immediately, in the same process of citta, by the phala-cittas, which are two or three moments of citta, depending on the individual. When someone attains enlightenment of the stage of the sotåpanna, the magga-citta and the phala-cittas of the sotåpanna arise. The magga-citta of the sotåpanna eradicates the defilements which are to be eradicated at that stage, and this is once and for all. Thus, the magga-citta of the sotåpanna can arise only once in the cycle of birth and death. The phala-citta can arise again in other processes of citta if enlightenment has been attained with lokuttara jhånacitta. Someone who has developed jhåna and acquired ``mastery´´ in jhåna (Vis. IV, 131) and also develops insight can attain enlightenment with lokuttara jhånacitta, lokuttara citta accompanied by jhånafactors of one of the stages of jhåna. It is extremely difficult to acquire ``mastery´´ in jhåna; one should be able, for example, to determine when one enters jhåna and when one emerges from jhåna. Only if mastery has been acquired, jhåna can be a ``base´´ for insight, that is, an object of mindfulness in vipassanå. In that way the clinging to a self who attains jhåna can be eliminated. Those who attain enlightenment have different accumulations and according to one´s accumulations the lokuttara jhånacittas are accompanied by jhåna-factors of different stages of jhåna. The phala-citta which is accompanied by jhåna-factors can arise many times again, experiencing nibbåna with absorption. Cittas can be counted as eighty-nine or as a hundred and twenty-one. When cittas are counted as a hundred and twenty-one, there are, instead of eight lokuttara cittas, forty lokuttara cittas, and these are lokuttara cittas accompanied by the jhåna-factors of the different stages of jhåna. As we have seen, there are five stages of rúpa-jhåna and at each stage jhåna-factors are successively abandoned, until at the fifth stage (or at the fourth stage of the fourfold system) there are the remaining factors of samådhi (concentration) and upekkhå (indifferent feeling) which arises instead of sukha (pleasant feeling). Lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by jhåna-factors of each of the five stages of jhåna. For example, when lokuttara cittas are accompanied by jhåna-factors of the fifth stage of rúpa-jhåna, it means that they are accompanied by samådhi and upekkhå. As regards arúpa-jhånacittas, they have meditation subjects which are different from the meditation subjects for rúpa-jhåna, but the jhåna-factors which accompany them are the same as the jhåna-factors of the fifth stage of rúpa-jhåna, namely samådhi and upekkhå. Thus, the jhåna-factors of the five types of rúpa-jhåna have to be taken into account when we classify lokuttara jhånacittas, lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhåna-factors of the different stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna. Consequently, each one of the eight lokuttara cittas can be reckoned as fivefold and then there are forty lokuttara cittas. When cittas are counted as eighty-nine, they can be summarized as follows: 12 akusala cittas 18 ahetuka cittas 8 mahå-kusala cittas 8 mahå-vipåkacittas 8 mahå-kiriyacittas 15 rúpåvacara cittas 12 arúpåvacara cittas 8 lokuttara cittas When cittas are counted as 121, there are, instead of 8 lokuttara cittas, 40 lokuttara cittas. The way to nibbåna seems to be extremely long and we may wonder how we could ever reach the goal. We should not be impatient and wish for a result that is far off. Instead, we should consider what we have to do at the present moment: to develop right understanding of the nåma and rúpa which appear right now. Thus we develop the condition for the attainment of nibbåna. 15476 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1) Hi Larry, Christine, Sarah, . . . I'd like to enrol in the new abhidhamma class. When the idea of working our way through ADL was first mooted, I had good intentions of taking part. But, when it came to reading the quite large tracts of Abhidhamma, excellent though they were, I tended to suffer from Frank's complaint (zzzz). Having admitted that, I'd like to try again with whatever document you decide on. May I add though, that I'm not really interested in hearing how anyone agrees with some parts and disagrees with others. I'd rather we concentrate on understanding the original text. Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Chris, Larry and All, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Larry, Sarah > and All, > > > > Have a look at 'Cetasikas' by Nina and see what you think. I'm > > happy to go along with any strong preference anyone has - there is > > nothing that I don't need to study and learn. Has anyone else got an > > idea of something they would really like the group to study together? > > > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > ..... > I think this is a very good suggestion of yours, but we don't have to rush > any decision and it would be good to hear comments and requests from > others. It might even encourage Lucy back;-) > 15477 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 10:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Robert K. Thanks for your reply. Would it be fair to say that your position is that the practice of satipatthana or any other kusala activity is bound to be pervaded by defilements so it is better not to persue these activities? Larry __________ Dear Larry, What if there was only the next in breath or outbreath before death - would you use a method or would it be better to understand whatever is here right at this moment. In fact there is less time than that to have understanding because dhammas are falling away so fast. Death is happening now. Going back to my earlier post: "Think of seeing. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just in one day. Yet every moment of seeing arises because of very complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions are there it must arise. We take it for granted but it is at least as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to see. If they good eyes (conditioned by kamma and other conditions) then they must see; but if they are without eyes...." Following this up we could spend all our life urging and showing the man without eyes different ways to see - but it wouldn't help. The only way is if he gains eyes somehow. In the same way what is most critical is to develop samma-ditthi (right understanding): >>Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121>>> If this factor -right view - is not present, or distorted then: >>>From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking; from that wrong speech. From wrong speech, wrong action. From wrong action, wrong living; from that wrong effort. From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release......>> Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness So how does this right understanding develop? 'Middle Length Sayings' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta): >>>'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing wise attention into existence.'>>> Wise attention isn't limited to just thinking about the Dhamma, it includes direct attention in a wise way to the present moment: Samyutta Nikaya XXII.122 Silavant Sutta "A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry." It is easy enough for anyone to focus on the khandas, the objects of satipatthana such as feeling, rupa (heat, vibration ect) and some people assume that because they can sense subtle aspects of these (that they had never known about before) that this alone is satipatthana. But the measure is whether there is detachment from the idea of self experiencing the object (whether gross or subtle). I think pariyatti(theory) and pattipati(practice) go together. Kitagiri sutta (MN): "And how bhikkhus does the attainment of profound knowledge come by means of a gradual training...? .... he hears Dhamma; having heard Dhamma he remembers it; he tests the meaning of the things he has borne in mind; while testing the meaning, the things are approved of; there being approval of the things, chanda is born; with chanda born he makes an effort; having made the effort, he weighs it up; having weighed it up..."endquote Perhaps we think of this gradual training as a straight line? I think it is more accurate to think of it like a spiral. We (actually the formations) listen (or read), we test, we apply, we approve of the meaning.. we make an effort and then we listen again, test again, we apply again, we approve…and then back again for more listening, more testing, more application, again and again and again. Where is the practice and where is the theory? I don't think we can draw a line between the two. They are closely connected, they build on each other. And also all types of kusala support satipatthana bhavana - refer to the book by Nina: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm We might start to develop right view but still hold onto our stingy ways (for example)- and then there is no sincerity, one is using anatta as an excuse . One does not see that our hair is on fire with kilesa. Robert 15478 From: egberdina Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 11:23pm Subject: Re: Cittas as condition (this one's for you Rob Epstein) Hi Rob Epstein, Good to be typing to you :-) Comments interspersed below. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "epsteinrob" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > It is often said that a citta and cetasikas are conditions for the > > next citta and cetasikas. > > (If I have got that wrong then please ignore the rest of this post). > > > > I have been wondering about this, and this is what I have come up > > with so far. > > > > A citta is a conditioned reality, and is manifested as experience, > > which is absolute. The citta, however, is not its own cause. It is > > not a thing in itself, but a coming together of a number of other > > things, which are not experienced. How can this citta then be a > > condition for the next or a future one? > > Wouldn't it be more coherent > > to say that the conditions for a citta are the conditions for the > > next or a future citta? > > Couldn't be, then the second citta would be an exact duplicate of the > first, and we'd be experiencing the same moment over and over again. I don't think this is necessarily correct. Cannot conditions change from moment to moment? The experiencing, to my way of thinking, is a product of the ingredients that are there. The next experience is a new ball game altogether. If the same experience persists it would simply mean that the conditions (ingredients) haven't changed. > but it does raise the question of what it is that interacts with the > citta to change it into the next citta. It can't be the citta itself > alone, or it too would merely replicate itself exactly, since it would > have the exact same conditions as those which caused it. This is an > interesting problem in the single citta theory. > I wonder if cittas change, or whether each one is a new ball game? If there are similarities, again I would atribute this to conditions being similar. > If the conditions change or are different, > > the citta is different. > > The conditions for a specific citta change at every moment. Nothing > ever stays the same for more than a moment. > > > As a parallel, we do not say that whatever is reflected in a mirror > > at a certain time is a condition for it being reflected again the > > next moment. > > No, but that which is reflected in the mirror is the condition for that > which is next reflected in the mirror, not because of the mirror but > because of the thing that is reflected and the way it changes. The > mirror doesn't have to change for the object to change, and thus the > reflection. I really do not see this at all. What is reflected is a result. You seem to be saying that a result becomes a cause for the next result. It is the causes that end up with the result. Same causes, same result, different causes, different result. > > Best, > Robert Right back at you Herman 15479 From: epsteinrob Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 11:51pm Subject: Re: Cittas as condition (this one's for you Rob Epstein) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > Hi Rob Epstein, > > Good to be typing to you :-) Same here. : ) > Comments interspersed below. Me too. Gee whiz, I seem to be copying you!! > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "epsteinrob" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > It is often said that a citta and cetasikas are conditions for > the > > > next citta and cetasikas. > > > (If I have got that wrong then please ignore the rest of this > post). > > > > > > I have been wondering about this, and this is what I have come up > > > with so far. > > > > > > A citta is a conditioned reality, and is manifested as > experience, > > > which is absolute. The citta, however, is not its own cause. It > is > > > not a thing in itself, but a coming together of a number of other > > > things, which are not experienced. How can this citta then be a > > > condition for the next or a future one? > > > > Wouldn't it be more coherent > > > to say that the conditions for a citta are the conditions for the > > > next or a future citta? > > > > Couldn't be, then the second citta would be an exact duplicate of > the > > first, and we'd be experiencing the same moment over and over > again. > > I don't think this is necessarily correct. Cannot conditions change > from moment to moment? The experiencing, to my way of thinking, is a > product of the ingredients that are there. Are you saying that the ingredients are outside of the cittas themselves, 'in the world'? I think that Abhidhamma attempts not to make such an assertion. Which is also a problem for me in the sense that rupas and namas, which are distinguished as being objects of senses or objects of mind, as I understand it, do not refer to an actual complete object 'out there', but only to the momentary property of an object, such as hardness. In that case, it is hard to distinguish powerfully between a nama, mental construct, and rupa, object-property, which would also be a kind of mental construct. The next experience is a > new ball game altogether. If the same experience persists it would > simply mean that the conditions (ingredients) haven't changed. > > > but it does raise the question of what it is that interacts with > the > > citta to change it into the next citta. It can't be the citta > itself > > alone, or it too would merely replicate itself exactly, since it > would > > have the exact same conditions as those which caused it. This is > an > > interesting problem in the single citta theory. > > > > I wonder if cittas change, or whether each one is a new ball game? If > there are similarities, again I would atribute this to conditions > being similar. Well, the attributes of one citta are supposed to be passed on to the next one. This sets up a kind of contact between cittas I think, in which attributes are passed from one to the next, as I understand it. Otherwise, where would sanna, memory, and other cetasikas, get their information from? > > > If the conditions change or are different, > > > the citta is different. > > > > The conditions for a specific citta change at every moment. > Nothing > > ever stays the same for more than a moment. > > > > > As a parallel, we do not say that whatever is reflected in a > mirror > > > at a certain time is a condition for it being reflected again the > > > next moment. > > > > No, but that which is reflected in the mirror is the condition for > that > > which is next reflected in the mirror, not because of the mirror > but > > because of the thing that is reflected and the way it changes. The > > mirror doesn't have to change for the object to change, and thus > the > > reflection. > > I really do not see this at all. What is reflected is a result. You > seem to be saying that a result becomes a cause for the next result. > > It is the causes that end up with the result. Same causes, same > result, different causes, different result. I agree with this. Maybe I didn't use the analogy clearly. I'm just saying that the change in the reflection will reflect the change that is taking place in that which is reflected, not that the reflection affects the next reflection. > > > > > Best, > > Robert > > Right back at you > > Herman 15480 From: egberdina Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 11:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cittas as condition Hi Howard, Comments interspersed below. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Larry) - > > Rob, I think your reply is excellent. I'd like to add my 2 cents. In a > message dated 9/5/02 3:32:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... > writes: > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote:> Hi all, > > > > > > It is often said that a citta and cetasikas are conditions for the > > > next citta and cetasikas. > > > (If I have got that wrong then please ignore the rest of this post). > > > > > > I have been wondering about this, and this is what I have come up > > > with so far. > > > > > > A citta is a conditioned reality, and is manifested as experience, > > > which is absolute. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not clear on what you mean by "absolute" here, Larry. The > experience -including both the fact of its occurrence and its characteristics > - is conditioned. If, by "absolute" you mean being an actual event (and not > fiction), I agree. Herman: You probably meant Herman, not Larry. If I wasn't a concept I'd be miffed :-). By saying that experience is absolute I meant that it is irrefutable and undoubtable. Which pretty much means what you said, it is real. > ------------------------------------------------------- > The citta, however, is not its own cause. It is > > > > not a thing in itself, but a coming together of a number of other > > > things, which are not experienced. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > > Two questions here: > > 1) I don't think that the citta *is* the coming together of the needed > conditions. The coming together of the conditions (in sufficiently > appropriate proximity) results in the arising of the citta, but is not > identical with it. This is a matter of dependency, as I see it, but not > identity. Herman: I agree that the conditions are not identical with the resulting citta. I say this because the conditions are not experienced , the citta is. > > 2) Why are the conditions necessarily not experienced? Mightn't some > or even all of them be experienced? > ------------------------------------------------------ Herman: Cittas are parramattha dhammas, they are irreducible (as experience). One can think about the conditions, then the experience is thinking. > > How can this citta then be a > > > > condition for the next or a future one? > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Why not? It's absence would result the the next (or future) one not > arising, which is all that is required to make it a condition. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Herman: Like I said to Robert Epstein, I don't see this at all. I view experience as a result, which does not modify the underlying conditions at all. Awareness is passive. Go on, brand me a heretic :-) > > > > Wouldn't it be more coherent > > > to say that the conditions for a citta are the conditions for the > > > next or a future citta? > > > > Couldn't be, then the second citta would be an exact duplicate of the > > first, and we'd be experiencing the same moment over and over again. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Perfect answer! > --------------------------------------------------- > > Herman: I get the feeling you liked Robert's reply:-) > > but it does raise the question of what it is that interacts with the > > citta to change it into the next citta. It can't be the citta itself > > alone, or it too would merely replicate itself exactly, since it would > > have the exact same conditions as those which caused it. This is an > > interesting problem in the single citta theory. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that it is the fact that the current citta is not, itself, the > sole condition for subsequent cittas, but other earlier cittas are also > needed which is the telling point. Moreover, the current citta is not > typically identical with any of the conditions that led to its arising, or > even to a combination of them. It arose lawfully because of those conditions, > but is, itself, novel. The current citta has numerous characteristics and > involves numerous cetasikas of various types and intensities, none of which > had to exist among the conditions that led to this citta, and these many > characteristics and cetasikas serve as conditions that help determine the > nature of subsequent cittas. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > If the conditions change or are different, > > > the citta is different. > > > > The conditions for a specific citta change at every moment. Nothing > > ever stays the same for more than a moment. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Perhaps. Are all "moments" of the same duration? Maybe so, maybe not. > I suspect not, but, in any case, why is this important? > ----------------------------------------------------- Herman: If a citta lasted a million years as opposed to a millisecond, we wouldn't know.(IMHO) Time is a measurement of change, if there is no change, there is no time. > > > > > > As a parallel, we do not say that whatever is reflected in a mirror > > > at a certain time is a condition for it being reflected again the > > > next moment. > > > > No, but that which is reflected in the mirror is the condition for that > > which is next reflected in the mirror, not because of the mirror but > > because of the thing that is reflected and the way it changes. The > > mirror doesn't have to change for the object to change, and thus the > > reflection. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Again an excellent answer. Speaking conventionally, of course, the > mirror is one of the conditions for seeing a reflection, the others being the > objects reflected, the light bouncing off those objects towards the mirror, > and the observer. The mirror is the condition least likely to change, but > should any of them change, "what is reflected in the mirror" will change. > Moreoever "what is reflected in the mirror" is unique only for a particular > observer. For another observer, it is different. And, in a sense, what is > reflected in the mirror for a given observer is in the mind of that observer, > and DOES condition what is next reflected in the mirror for that observer, if > anything at all. (Perhaps what the observer sees in the mirror causes him/her > to immediately close his/her eyes or avert his/her gaze!) > -------------------------------------------------- > Herman: Perhaps the mirror was not a good example. Another example would be three sheaves standing in a field, supporting each other. For the purpose of the example, the experience is the three sheaves viewed as a unit. One cannot experience a single sheaf standing upright. This would be an abstraction. As long as the three are there, they will stand upright, take any away, it doesn't matter which one, they will all fall down, and there will not be the experience. The fact that they stand there, all three as one experienced unit, is not a condition for it to be so the next moment. It is the three sheaves separately that are conditions for it to be so. > > > > Best, > > Robert > > > > ============================ > With metta, > Howard > Me three Herman 15481 From: epsteinrob Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 0:04am Subject: Re: ADLch. 23 (4) Enjoyed reading this description. Thanks, Robert Ep. =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Abhidhamma In Daily Life > Chapter 23 (4) > > As we have seen, there are four paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika, > rúpa and nibbåna. Citta, cetasika and rúpa are realities which > arise and fall away, they are conditioned dhammas and thus dukkha. > Nibbåna does not arise and fall away; it has no conditions through > which it arises, it is an unconditioned dhamma. Nibbåna is the end to > dukkha. If there were no cessation of dukkha the Buddha would not have > taught the Path leading to the cessation of dukkha. However, since there > is the cessation of dukkha, the Buddha taught the Path leading to it. We > read in the Verses of Uplift (Udåna, chapter VIII, 3, Khuddaka > Nikåya) that the Buddha, while he was staying in Anåthapindika's > Park, said to the monks: > > Monks, there is a not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. > Monks, if that unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded were not, > there would be apparent no escape from this here that is born, become, > made, compounded. > > But since, monks, there is an unborn... therefore the escape from this > here that is born, become... is apparent. > > Nibbåna can be experienced at the attainment of enlightenment, but > enlightenment cannot be attained unless paññå has been developed > to the degree that it can experience the conditioned dhammas as they > are: impermanent, dukkha and non-self (anattå). > > At the attainment of enlightenment the magga-citta (lokuttara kusala > citta) directly experiences nibbåna. When the magga-citta has fallen > away, it is succeeded immediately by the phala-citta (lokuttara > vipåkacitta) which experiences the same object. When one performs > kåmåvacara kusala kamma (kusala kamma of the sensuous plane of > consciousness) the vipåka does not follow immediately. Even if the > vipåka were to arise soon after the kamma, it could never arise in the > same process of citta. When one attains rúpa-jhåna or > arúpa-jhåna, the vipåkacitta, if it arises, only arises in a next > life. It is different with the magga-citta, this has to be followed > immediately, in the same process of citta, by the phala-cittas, which > are two or three moments of citta, depending on the individual. > > When someone attains enlightenment of the stage of the sotåpanna, the > magga-citta and the phala-cittas of the sotåpanna arise. The > magga-citta of the sotåpanna eradicates the defilements which are to > be eradicated at that stage, and this is once and for all. Thus, the > magga-citta of the sotåpanna can arise only once in the cycle of birth > and death. > > The phala-citta can arise again in other processes of citta if > enlightenment has been attained with lokuttara jhånacitta. Someone who > has developed jhåna and acquired ``mastery´´ in jhåna (Vis. IV, > 131) and also develops insight can attain enlightenment with lokuttara > jhånacitta, lokuttara citta accompanied by jhånafactors of one of > the stages of jhåna. It is extremely difficult to acquire > ``mastery´´ in jhåna; one should be able, for example, to > determine when one enters jhåna and when one emerges from jhåna. > Only if mastery has been acquired, jhåna can be a ``base´´ for > insight, that is, an object of mindfulness in vipassanå. In that way > the clinging to a self who attains jhåna can be eliminated. Those who > attain enlightenment have different accumulations and according to > one´s accumulations the lokuttara jhånacittas are accompanied by > jhåna-factors of different stages of jhåna. The phala-citta which is > accompanied by jhåna-factors can arise many times again, experiencing > nibbåna with absorption. > > Cittas can be counted as eighty-nine or as a hundred and twenty-one. > When cittas are counted as a hundred and twenty-one, there are, instead > of eight lokuttara cittas, forty lokuttara cittas, and these are > lokuttara cittas accompanied by the jhåna-factors of the different > stages of jhåna. As we have seen, there are five stages of > rúpa-jhåna and at each stage jhåna-factors are successively > abandoned, until at the fifth stage (or at the fourth stage of the > fourfold system) there are the remaining factors of samådhi > (concentration) and upekkhå (indifferent feeling) which arises instead > of sukha (pleasant feeling). Lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by > jhåna-factors of each of the five stages of jhåna. For example, when > lokuttara cittas are accompanied by jhåna-factors of the fifth stage > of rúpa-jhåna, it means that they are accompanied by samådhi and > upekkhå. > > As regards arúpa-jhånacittas, they have meditation subjects which > are different from the meditation subjects for rúpa-jhåna, but the > jhåna-factors which accompany them are the same as the jhåna-factors > of the fifth stage of rúpa-jhåna, namely samådhi and upekkhå. > Thus, the jhåna-factors of the five types of rúpa-jhåna have to be > taken into account when we classify lokuttara jhånacittas, lokuttara > cittas accompanied by jhåna-factors of the different stages of > rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna. Consequently, each one of the eight > lokuttara cittas can be reckoned as fivefold and then there are forty > lokuttara cittas. > > When cittas are counted as eighty-nine, they can be summarized as > follows: > > 12 akusala cittas > > 18 ahetuka cittas > > 8 mahå-kusala cittas > > 8 mahå-vipåkacittas > > 8 mahå-kiriyacittas > > 15 rúpåvacara cittas > > 12 arúpåvacara cittas > > 8 lokuttara cittas > > When cittas are counted as 121, there are, instead of 8 lokuttara > cittas, 40 lokuttara cittas. > > The way to nibbåna seems to be extremely long and we may wonder how we > could ever reach the goal. We should not be impatient and wish for a > result that is far off. Instead, we should consider what we have to do > at the present moment: to develop right understanding of the nåma and > rúpa which appear right now. Thus we develop the condition for the > attainment of nibbåna. 15482 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 0:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1) / Ken H Hey Ken H, once you indicate an interest it becomes not "whatever document YOU decide on" but "whatever document WE decide on" :) It will be great to have you join in. :) What do you reckon? Any suggestions? Preferably something on-line, so we can all access it .... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Larry, Christine, Sarah, . . . > > I'd like to enrol in the new abhidhamma class. When the > idea of working our way through ADL was first mooted, I > had good intentions of taking part. But, when it came to > reading the quite large tracts of Abhidhamma, excellent > though they were, I tended to suffer from Frank's > complaint (zzzz). > > Having admitted that, I'd like to try again with whatever > document you decide on. May I add though, that I'm not > really interested in hearing how anyone agrees with some > parts and disagrees with others. C> > > Kind regards > > Ken H > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Hi Chris, Larry and All, > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Larry, Sarah > > and All, > > > > > > Have a look at 'Cetasikas' by Nina and see what you think. I'm > > > happy to go along with any strong preference anyone has - there > is > > > nothing that I don't need to study and learn. Has anyone else > got an > > > idea of something they would really like the group to study > together? > > > > > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > > ..... > > I think this is a very good suggestion of yours, but we don't have > to rush > > any decision and it would be good to hear comments and requests from > > others. It might even encourage Lucy back;-) > > 15483 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections, Ch 5, Wisdom, no. 3 Dear Nina,(Rob M and All), I’ve been appreciating the series on Perfections. Recently we read (ch5-3): “People who have developed paññå know that dukkha, suffering, arises because of clinging to rúpa. In order to abandon dukkha, we should eliminate clinging to rúpas. The dukkha in our life is caused by rúpas, because we cling and take delight in the sense objects of colour, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. All these objects are the cause of diverse kinds of dukkha.” ***** When we have troubles or problems in a day, we’re so used to thinking in terms of stories and events. Without panna (right understanding) we foget about ‘guarding the sense doors’ and assume other external causes bring these troubles. We read: “Therefore the Buddha said, that he saw all beings being troubled because of rupa.” Rob M mentioned that it was difficult to find information about sense door and mind door processes (which he refers to as thought processes) in the first text of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani. This prompted me to take a look with his comments in mind. I think that when we understand that these processes are just about realities being experienced now, we can read plenty of details about different mental states, about rupas, about kamma and about defilements. For example, with regard to the guarding of the sense doors and the troubles on account of rupas, we read: “What is it to have the door of the faculties unguarded? When a certain individual sees an object with the eye he is entranced with the general appearance, or in the details of it. He does not set himself to restrain that which might give occasion for wicked states, covetous, dejected, to flow in over him, were he to dwell unrestrained as to the sense of sight. He keeps no watch over his faculty of sight, nor does he attain to mastery over it. And so in like manner when he hears a sound with the ear........recognizes a mental object with the mind, he is entranced with the general appearance and in the details of it.........That these six faculties should be thus unguarded, untended, unwatched over, unrestrained, is what is called having the door of the faculties unguarded.” (Dhammasangani, 1345, PTS transl) ***** Of course this should all be read in the light of anatta - no self to do or not do anything. At the end of the section of Perfections (above), we read: “The perfection of truthfulness and the perfection of determination are a necessary foundation for being able to listen to the Dhamma. One should be unshakable in one’s determination to listen, no matter in what circumstances one may be.” Sometimes we may not be in the mood to listen or consider or apply the teachings. Often we are troubled on account of what has been seen, heard and so on. We are lost in stories and forget about the real cause of the troubles, i.e. the kilesa arising on account of these sense door experiences. Conditions impact on cittas all the time. On Sunday, Jon was getting out of a taxi and the driver was trying to give him too much change. Jon was having to be quite insistent to give the money back to the driver and as a result of the distraction didn’t notice that his wallet had fallen on the floor when he got out. He realised too late and the driver didn’t return with it, so he spent quite a long time making phone calls, filling out forms at the police station and later at immigration for his lost I.D. card and so on. An act of kindness and then so many stories and conditions for dosa, but also for acceptance and patience in between and further opportunities for guarding the sense doors and wise reflection whilst sitting in queues. I find the reminders about troubles on account of rupas so helpful. Just visible objects, sounds and other rupas being experienced and then all these stories and kilesa arising. How fortunate we are to have ‘good’ friends (thanks Sukin for the distinction between ‘good’ and ‘dear’) to point out these treasures to us and to be able to consider more about wholesome and unwholesome states. From the same section of Dhammasangani, 1341, we read: “What is patience? That patience which is long-suffering, compliance, absence of rudeness and abruptness, complacency of heart (khanti). What is loveableness? (soracca.m) That which is the absence of excess in deed, in word, and in deed and word together. Besides, all moral self-restraint is lovely. What is amity ?(saakhalya.m) When all such speech as is insolent (a.n.dakaa), disagreeable (asaataa), scabrous (kakkasaa), harsh to others, vituperative (paraabhisajjanii) to others, bordering upon anger, not conducive to concentration, is put away, and when all such speech as is innocuous (niddosaa), pleasant to the ear, affectionate, such as goes to the heart, is urbane (porii), sweet and acceptable to people generally - when speech of this sort is spoken - polished, friendly and gentle language - this is what is called amity. What is courtesy? The two forms of courtesy: hospitality towards bodily needs and considerateness in matters of doctrine. When anyone shows courtesy it is in one of these two forms.” ***** Thank you, Nina or sharing your translation of K.Sujin’s ‘Perfections’ and for the example of friendship and amity here. We never know how our lives will unfold from moment to moment, but the reminders of truthfulness, -. the strength and courage to face up to our kilesa at this moment - and of ‘determination to listen, no matter in what circumstances’ are invaluable. Sarah ===== 15484 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > First, on the subject of concepts, I basically disagree with the > received wisdom. What is a concept if not a ditthi? There are true and > correct ditthi and untrue and incorrect ditthi. Panna is just a true > ditthi. In its simplest form, a correct name. Understanding is a > psychological phenomenon which I don't really understand (haha). So > let's wait on that one. ..... I’m pretty confused here. Right and wrong view are cetasikas (mental factors) which accompany cittas. They are not concepts, but the thinking accompanied by right or wrong view can think about concepts. The cetasikas are real, the concepts are not. ..... > Second, as for meditation, what I am hearing as implication from you, > Jon, Robert, and Nina is don't bother to meditate because you will > probably get it wrong. Instead, just study and eventually the truth will > accumulate in your continuum. ..... I think that what you’re hearing is whether you meditate or not (according to your understanding of the word) will depend on conditions and whether you are or aren’t meditating at this moment, there are realities which can be known. Let me quote again from the Satip.com or sub com “Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom (pa~n~na bhavana).” ..... >I think this is bad advice. What I would > like instead is for you to encourage people to meditate but be open to > correction. Beyond that, what I would really like is for Acharn Sujin to > give meditation instruction. ..... According to what definition of meditation? According to the definition above of panna bhavana, I think we’d all encourage people to meditate. As Rob Ep wrote recently “we can *think* there is a self and be so convinced of it, while there really isn’t a being or entity.......there is only consciousness taking it all in, and that consciousness is just a function, it isn’t a‘you’ or an ‘I’. “Self’ seems to be a concept, a myth, an imposition of the mind on reality. It really is like a unicorn, it’s attractive but isn’t really there.” While we cling to an idea of self and control we tend to cling to an idea of fixing or limiting or setting rules for objects of awareness, not realizing that seeing, thinking and many other realities are already arising when we think of these concepts. As Rob K has been stressing with the example of seeing: “if the conditions are there it must arise.” This is the same for all realities. As for A.Sujin’s instruction, Larry, she’s in your country for a brief stay. Why not jump on a plane, head for California and ask for meditation instruction? ..... >As recent discussions have shown, there are > many ways of implementing this 'only way' of satipatthana. I would like > to see what sort of program she could come up with. ..... As I understand, there is only one way of developing satipatthana - the 8fold or rather 5fold path leading to higher insights. The program may not be the program you’re wishing to hear;-) Sarah ===== 15485 From: rikpa21 Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 3:42am Subject: Re: Meditation and Satipatthana --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: Hi Robert, > What if there was only the next in breath or outbreath before > death - would you use a method or would it be better to understand > whatever is here right at this moment. In fact there is less time > than that to have understanding because dhammas are falling away so > fast. Death is happening now. In the same way it would be an exercise in futility to attempt to play a Rachmaninov or Paganini concerto to perfection, without years of training in both musical theory and practicing rudiments of musical scales, chords, and so on, it is similarly futile to believe one can skip the rudiments of developing mindfulness (sati) & clear comprehension (sampajjana) without following the basic plot. There is a pedagogical and developmental progression implicit in the Dhamma taught by the Buddha: "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda... "The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-by- step.'" Why "step by step"? The core of the Teaching is found in both progressive instruction /and/ in progressive development, since all of us are beginning not as arahants, but where we are. Each of us needs to be led, step-by-step, out of our delusion. "The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].'" In other words, when this arises, that arises; when this ceases, that ceases. The teaching on paticca samuppada (dependent origination) is central to the Dhamma proclaimed by the Tathagata. The chain of causes-and-effects leading from suffering sentient being to the fully released arahant is based on a clearly enumerated set of conditions, causes, and effects. It does not arise spontaneously or without the appropriate conditions. > Going back to my earlier post: > > "Think of seeing. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just > in one day. Yet every moment of seeing arises because of very > complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions > are there it must arise. We take it for granted but it is at least > as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should > arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how > to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to > see. To explain sati correctly, it is assumed one has developed true sati & sampajjana to the point one can clearly, and with high degree of insight, discern the suffering, impermanence, or the emptiness of the object of investigation--even at the mundane (lokiya) level. Without proper training in the basic practices outlined by the Buddha, though, how likely is it that one has well-established mindfulness & clear comprehension to the point this type of discernment is even a remote possibility? It is easy to believe there is true mindfulness of the present moment, when in fact there are only subtle conceptual elaborations regarding what is seen, heard, smelled, tasted, touched, or cognized. Someone here recently mentioned the Zen practice of "shikantaza"-- which is the practice of taking whatever arises as the object of investigation. The Tibetan schools have many approaches that employ this type of mindfulness to whatever arises as well. In all cases, these are considered advanced practices for those who have already developed sati and samadhi to a very high degree, such that the mind can remain undistracted for long periods of time. Only mindfulness firmly established through diligent bhavana (cultivation) provides the proper conditions for clearly discerning these constantly changing phenomena. In other words, there can be much talk about "satipatthana", but if there is no emphasis on bhavana in the ways outlined by the Buddha, then it is only talk that does not lead to the abandonment of suffering. However, when one practices according to the Buddha's instructions, under the guidance of siritual friends with direct understanding of the path (kalyanamittatas), and one listens attentively, and considers carefully, and then puts the instructions into practice, correcting when correction is needed and leaving it alone when it's working, samma sati arises without conscious effort. With samma sati, samma samadhi arises without conscious effort. When these are well-established, this leads naturally to the arising of the seven factors of enlightenment to the point of supramundane (lokuttara) knowledge and vision. In this way, the development of the path is progressive (though I do really like your "spiral" analogy better that a pure, linear progression, since it resonates much more with my own experience of the Dhamma & discipline). By constrast, to skip the rudiments of bhavana (like seated meditation with favorable external conditions, such as quiet and so on) in favor of attempting to know that there is "just seeing", for example, there is little or no development--at least not of samma sati. There isn't enough of a "charge" (like building up the electrical potential in a capacitor) there to lead to the high degree of mindfulness and concentration that penetrates the thicket of conceptual elaborations and discerns the characteristics of dhammas directly. Lacking this degree of penetrative insight, there is no development of the path to the degree of realizing the path and its fruits. While the conditions for direct knowledge of the path (magga/phala- nana) are many, and it is difficult (from one perspoective), for those with highly developed mindfulness and concentration, it's also a lot easier than many suppose. In fact, if one has enough conventional Right View not to take what arises for "I, me, mine", or as something permanent, even intellectually, but has highly devloped mindfulnesss and concentration (built on a foundation of virtue, concentration, wisdom), it is, for many, "good enough" (which is all it need be--perfectionists need not apply) to realize the path & fruits. Again, it is assumed one is well-trained in morality (sila), concentration (samadhi), and wisdom (panna). The lowdown on the practice leading to the end of the effluents-- referring to the previous citations on instructions going step-by- step and emphasizing causes & conditions--the Buddha's "cheat sheet" on getting from point A (anguish) to point B (Buddhahood for those practicing the Bodhisattayana, or arahantship for those on the Sravakayana track) is most helpful: "Now, I tell you, clear knowing & release have their nutriment. They are not without nutriment. And what is their nutriment? The seven factors of awakening....And what is the nutriment for the seven factors of awakening? The four frames of reference....And what is the nutriment for the four frames of reference? The three forms of right conduct....And what is the nutriment for the three forms of right conduct? Restraint of the senses....And what is the nutriment for restraint of the senses? Mindfulness & alertness....And what is the nutriment for mindfulness & alertness? Appropriate attention....And what is the nutriment for appropriate attention? Conviction....And what is the nutriment for conviction? Hearing the true Dhamma....And what is the nutriment for hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are truly good...." > The > only way is if he gains eyes somehow. In the same way what is most > critical is to develop samma-ditthi (right understanding): Right, and how does one develop samma ditthi to the degree of direct insight-knowledge? There is mundane samma ditthi, a precursor, of course. But there is also supramundane (lokuttara) samma ditthi--and this is the samma ditthi which is the aim of the path. > >>Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication > of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > indication of wholesome states. > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For > one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right > livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort > springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs > up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs > up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. > For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up. > Anguttara Nikaya 10:121>>> Have to leave in this gerat citation. Thanks, Robert! :) > Wise attention isn't limited to just thinking about the Dhamma, it > includes direct attention in a wise way to the present moment: > It is easy enough for anyone to focus on the khandas, the objects > of satipatthana such as feeling, rupa (heat, vibration ect) and > some people assume that because they can sense subtle aspects of > these (that they had never known about before) that this alone is > satipatthana. But the measure is whether there is detachment from > the idea of self experiencing the object (whether gross or subtle). I find this a potentially misleading statement, since detachment implies an "experiencer". There are no views, nor is there "experience", at the moment of magga-nana. There is no possibility of any kind of view at all, since the direct perception of emptiness blocks the perception of conditioned realities for all but Buddhas, who can see both the dependently originated aspect and the emptiness of those dependently originated phenomena simultaneously. This knowledge is beyond even the range of arahants who still possesss the "obstructions to omnisience" completely removed by a Buddha. In emptiness there is no self, nor not-self, nor both, nor neither. It is the cessation of all fabrications, and is recognized as such only immediately afterwards, during "reviewing knowledge". > I think pariyatti(theory) and pattipati(practice) go together. > Kitagiri sutta (MN): > "And how bhikkhus does the attainment of profound > knowledge come by means of a gradual training...? > .... he hears Dhamma; > having heard Dhamma he remembers it; he tests the meaning of the > things he has borne in mind; while > testing the meaning, the things are approved of; there > being approval of the things, chanda is born; with > chanda born he makes an effort; having made the > effort, he weighs it up; having weighed it up..."endquote Again, great quote, Robert, worthy of repetition. Glad to see you appreciate the value of pariyatti & patipatti as concomitants of the Path. > We might start to develop right view but still hold onto our stingy > ways (for example)- and then there is no sincerity, one is using > anatta as an excuse . One does not see that our hair is on fire with Robert, you're starting to sound all Zen here. Using "anatta" as an excuse ("hey, it's all empty anyway, I can do whatever!) /and/ the "hair on fire" analogy used so often in Zen! Cheers, Erik 15486 From: jonoabb Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 4:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana and Defilements/meditation Goggy --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "goglerr" wrote: ... > Hello Jon, > So sorry to reply u this late. You see, I was out of town for more > than a week and I just got back today. I'm trying to catch up with > all the messages. > > Well, the sutta is in Anguttara Nikaya, III, 29. It was translated as > alley-walk discourse in the PTS. I find that this translation is not > so good. If u could look up in the Pali text would be better. > > Goglerr I'm afraid my Pali is non-existent, so I'll have to make do with the PTS translation. This gives the 5 advantages of the 'alley-walk' as follows: 1/. it hardens one for travelling [comy: one is able to endure a long journey] 2/. it is good for striving 3/. it is healthy 4/. it's use tends to good digestion after one has eaten and drunk, munched and crunched 5/. the concentration won from (the thought of) an alley-walk lasts long. So done for the right reason, this walking back and forth is beneficial, and can be a support for kusala. Thanks for the reference. Jon 15487 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] There are people Ranil --- ranil gunawardena wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Replace the word people with beings to get the correct version of the > wording. However even if you say people heres how to derieve on whether > a > person will be enlighten or not. > > Once Buddha was asked a question. > "Are all buddists going to attain Nirvana? " > > Buddha said, > > "Yes, the people (beings?) who do what I have said to do, > No, the people who do not do what I have said to do" > > That was point 1. > > Point2, well all are in Sansara, and to get out... there is no where > else > other than sansara to be in :) > > ~meththa > ranil OK, now I get it (I think). You are saying that since the future Buddha is here (in samsara), it can't be such a bad place after all. Hmm, I'm not sure the future Buddha himself would agree with that proposition. If we were fortunate enough to meet him, he would probably tell us how dangerous it would be to have even the slightest satisfaction in our present state of affairs!! Jon 15488 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism study (rumoured) (Rob Ep) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > ... > Dear Jon, > I am somewhat chagrined that I have responded to these posts two weeks > late, and > also in reverse order. Hope that's not too confusing. I was happy to > find and > finally get to these very considered responses on your part, and thank > you much > for taking the time to take up these matters. > > Answering these posts has been very pleasureable, as the subjects are > close to my > heart and mind. I hope that's not an expression of moha on my part, I > mean, > enjoying the dialogue 'too much'. : ) > > Best, > Robert Ep. Great set of posts, Rob, and I appreciate the thought and care that has gone into them. I'm looking forward to getting back to you. Only problem is, I have rather limited posting time at the moment, due to work and other commitments. So if it takes a while for my replies to come through, please don't think I've ignored you. BTW, backwards order seems to work just fine (not for me though -- too methodical by nature, I'm afraid). Jon PS Your timing was good too, coming at a relatively slow time for the list. PPS Enjoying your thread with Kom. 15489 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice Erik Thanks for coming in on this thread. The usual wealth of points to discuss ;-)) (and very eloquently put, too). I'll try and get back on some of them shortly. Jon --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Hi Rob & Jon, > > Rob: > > How ever, [Jon] may be > > correct that sitting and focussing on the breathing in a formal > session may not be > > explicitly mentioned in the sutta. > > To get a bit Clintonian, this seems a case of it depending on what > the definition of 'is' is. The hermeneutical hair-splitting on this 15490 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting the Anapanasati Sutta into practice Howard (and also Erik) (and Rob Ep indirectly) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I will insert some comments below. But as an advance summary: I do not > see matters as you do here. No surprise there, Howard ;-)) However, your comments have been cause for thought, so I hope you don't mind if I ignore your suggestion to agree to disagree, for a bit longer at least... (and apologies for rearranging the order of your post). -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Whoever the person is, he/she must "go to the wilderness", must "sit down folding his legs crosswise", must "hold his body erect", must "set mindfulness to the fore". These things don't just happen! They are willful, Jon. They constitute deliberate practice, deliberate *training* (just as the Buddha said that the forest monk "trains himself"). The Anapanasati Sutta is not mere description of an event somehow occurring. It is prescription by way of description. It's like one person asking how to bake a cake, and getting the answer: "When a cake is being baked, first the ingredients are assembled, including flour, eggs, shorthening, and yeast, then ... " This is a method of instruction. ----------------------------------------------------------- I agree pretty much with what you say here, particularly in that the sutta is a form of instruction, as indeed is the case with all the suttas. The point I was trying to make about this part of the sutta [section B of the passage below], however, is that it introduces the *particular kind of person to or about whom the instruction that follows is being given*. That kind of person possesses certain qualities that cannot be emulated by someone living the life that you or I do, I believe (namely, the tranquillity and purity of living that comes from highly-developed samatha [based in this case on the breath]), in addition to well-developed mindfulness [satipatthana]. As I see it, this is a case of the Buddha informing a group of specially qualified people what they are capable of achieving, given their particular development and inclinations, if they are able to follow his instruction. To Erik: (I hope you don't mind me discussing here part of your recent message to Rob Ep and me). I'd like to suggest that this particular passage, "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, ... sits down folding his legs crosswise ... and setting mindfulness to the fore" [section B below] is *not* the answer to the question that precedes it, "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?" [at section A below], as you seem to imply. I think a close reading of the sutta will show that this is merely the preamble to the answer to that question. The 'meat' of the answer is the teaching on the Four frames of reference [section at C], following which the Buddha declares this to be the answer [at section D]. To my reading, the significance of the passage that begins "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, ... sits down folding his legs crosswise ... and setting mindfulness to the fore" is to say, "What follows only truly applies to someone like this". The Buddha is not saying "Here's what I'm suggesting as a good practice for all of you to do". He is actually setting down the context (prerequisites, even) for what is to follow. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would direct your attention to the following phrases in what you quoted above: "trains himself" "subduing greed" "putting aside greed & distress" "developed & pursued" -------------------------------------------------------------------- I appreciate your mentioning these phrases, Howard. On looking at them in more detail and their place in the passage as a whole [section C in the passage below] I see another way of analysing the passage that may be helpful. I notice that some of the phrases you mention refer to actions that *have been done, or are to be done, by the (hypothetical) monk*, while others seem to refer to the *effects of those actions*. As far as actions done (or to be done) by the monk are concerned, these include-- (a) *discerning the manner of his breathing*. (b) *training himself to be sensitive to the entire body, or to calm bodily fabrication* while breathing (c) *remaining mindfully focused* on the body in & of itself [body as body], As a consequence of these actions (and in particular the 'remaining mindfully focussed' at (c) above), the following is achieved-- (a) greed & distress with reference to the world are subdued ('put aside'). (b) mindfulness of breathing is developed and pursued (in such a way as to bring the 4 frames of reference to their conclusion). In other words, these last 2 mentioned things are descriptive of what happens as a result of the monk who has properly trained himself and remained mindfully focussed etc. Does this seem a fair reading to you? On this reading, the emphasis again seems to be on the development of mindfulness and understanding above anything else. Jon ************************************************ A.. "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? B. "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out..." C. (The Four Frames of Reference) "[1] Now, on whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, discerns that he is breathing out long; or breathing in short, discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, discerns that he is breathing out short; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to the entire body; trains himself to breathe in... &... out calming bodily fabrication: On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this -- the in-&-out breath -- is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself ... "[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself ... "[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself ... D. "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination ...">> ****************************************************** 15491 From: Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cittas as condition Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/6/02 3:17:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Comments interspersed below. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Rob (and Larry) - > > > > Rob, I think your reply is excellent. I'd like to add my 2 > cents. In a > > message dated 9/5/02 3:32:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@Y... > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote:> > Hi all, > > > > > > > > It is often said that a citta and cetasikas are conditions for > the > > > > next citta and cetasikas. > > > > (If I have got that wrong then please ignore the rest of this > post). > > > > > > > > I have been wondering about this, and this is what I have come > up > > > > with so far. > > > > > > > > A citta is a conditioned reality, and is manifested as > experience, > > > > which is absolute. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I'm not clear on what you mean by "absolute" here, Larry. > The > > experience -including both the fact of its occurrence and its > characteristics > > - is conditioned. If, by "absolute" you mean being an actual event > (and not > > fiction), I agree. > > Herman: You probably meant Herman, not Larry. If I wasn't a concept > I'd be miffed :-). ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry. But don't both you and Larry now feel complimented? ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- > > By saying that experience is absolute I meant that it is irrefutable > and undoubtable. Which pretty much means what you said, it is real. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Yes. --------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > The citta, however, is not its own cause. It is > > > > > not a thing in itself, but a coming together of a number of > other > > > > things, which are not experienced. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > > > Two questions here: > > > > 1) I don't think that the citta *is* the coming together of > the needed > > conditions. The coming together of the conditions (in sufficiently > > appropriate proximity) results in the arising of the citta, but is > not > > identical with it. This is a matter of dependency, as I see it, but > not > > identity. > > Herman: I agree that the conditions are not identical with the > resulting citta. I say this because the conditions are not > experienced , the citta is. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I suppose that, after the fact, the citta may be experienced (in memory, or somehow), but I think of the citta, when occurring, as a mind-moment which *is* an experiencing - a bare experiencing of an object, a rupa or a nama, together with a number of other mental operations pertaining to the same object. I see the *knowing* of the object as different from but interdependent with the object known. I view vi~n~nana as a selective producing of actuality from potentiality. I see it as a kammically conditioned selection operation. (Of course, I don't claim that one's own kamma is the sole condition for vi~n~nana.) ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > 2) Why are the conditions necessarily not experienced? > Mightn't some > > or even all of them be experienced? > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Herman: Cittas are parramattha dhammas, they are irreducible (as > experience). One can think about the conditions, then the experience > is thinking. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not talking about *thinking* about conditions. I'm talking about *experiencing* them. An *experienced* sight is condition for, say, a pleasant feeling. The condition is the image, and it is experienced. We may then also think about it - that's different from experiencing it. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > How can this citta then be a > > > > > condition for the next or a future one? > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Why not? It's absence would result the the next (or future) > one not > > arising, which is all that is required to make it a condition. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Herman: Like I said to Robert Epstein, I don't see this at all. > > I view experience as a result, which does not modify the underlying > conditions at all. Awareness is passive. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: An unseen image won't be pleasant. A seen image will lead to vedana. Contact leads to vedana, and contact involves experience. Acts of awareness have consequences. That makes them conditions. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Go on, brand me a heretic :-) ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Boo! Hiss! Heretic!! Okay? ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > Wouldn't it be more coherent > > > > to say that the conditions for a citta are the conditions for > the > > > > next or a future citta? > > > > > > Couldn't be, then the second citta would be an exact duplicate of > the > > > first, and we'd be experiencing the same moment over and over > again. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Perfect answer! > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Herman: > I get the feeling you liked Robert's reply:-) > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Naah! I just wanted him to have a warm, fuzzy feeling! ;-)) [Yeah, I liked it.] -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > but it does raise the question of what it is that interacts with > the > > > citta to change it into the next citta. It can't be the citta > itself > > > alone, or it too would merely replicate itself exactly, since it > would > > > have the exact same conditions as those which caused it. This is > an > > > interesting problem in the single citta theory. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I think that it is the fact that the current citta is not, > itself, the > > sole condition for subsequent cittas, but other earlier cittas are > also > > needed which is the telling point. Moreover, the current citta is > not > > typically identical with any of the conditions that led to its > arising, or > > even to a combination of them. It arose lawfully because of those > conditions, > > but is, itself, novel. The current citta has numerous > characteristics and > > involves numerous cetasikas of various types and intensities, none > of which > > had to exist among the conditions that led to this citta, and these > many > > characteristics and cetasikas serve as conditions that help > determine the > > nature of subsequent cittas. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > If the conditions change or are different, > > > > the citta is different. > > > > > > The conditions for a specific citta change at every moment. > Nothing > > > ever stays the same for more than a moment. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Perhaps. Are all "moments" of the same duration? Maybe so, > maybe not. > > I suspect not, but, in any case, why is this important? > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Herman: If a citta lasted a million years as opposed to a > millisecond, we wouldn't know.(IMHO) Time is a measurement of change, > if there is no change, there is no time. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Good point. ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > As a parallel, we do not say that whatever is reflected in a > mirror > > > > at a certain time is a condition for it being reflected again > the > > > > next moment. > > > > > > No, but that which is reflected in the mirror is the condition > for that > > > which is next reflected in the mirror, not because of the mirror > but > > > because of the thing that is reflected and the way it changes. > The > > > mirror doesn't have to change for the object to change, and thus > the > > > reflection. > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Again an excellent answer. Speaking conventionally, of > course, the > > mirror is one of the conditions for seeing a reflection, the others > being the > > objects reflected, the light bouncing off those objects towards the > mirror, > > and the observer. The mirror is the condition least likely to > change, but > > should any of them change, "what is reflected in the mirror" will > change. > > Moreoever "what is reflected in the mirror" is unique only for a > particular > > observer. For another observer, it is different. And, in a sense, > what is > > reflected in the mirror for a given observer is in the mind of that > observer, > > and DOES condition what is next reflected in the mirror for that > observer, if > > anything at all. (Perhaps what the observer sees in the mirror > causes him/her > > to immediately close his/her eyes or avert his/her gaze!) > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > Herman: Perhaps the mirror was not a good example. Another example > would be three sheaves standing in a field, supporting each other. > For the purpose of the example, the experience is the three sheaves > viewed as a unit. One cannot experience a single sheaf standing > upright. This would be an abstraction. As long as the three are > there, they will stand upright, take any away, it doesn't matter > which one, they will all fall down, and there will not be the > experience. The fact that they stand there, all three as one > experienced unit, is not a condition for it to be so the next moment. > It is the three sheaves separately that are conditions for it to be > so. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > Robert > > > > > > > ============================ > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > Me three > Herman > > ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15492 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mind-process (was, Upekkha vs. Tatramajjhattata) Rob M --- robmoult wrote: ... > I would appreciate any links to detailed analysis of the thought > process. I find the Abhidhammathasangha to be quite light in this > area. Which of the original seven volumes did the thought process > appear in? I know it wasn't the first as I have a copy. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) Below is what Nyanatiloka says on the origins of the details on the mind process. Hope this is of interest. Jon citta-víthi, (as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes of conseiousness, such as ávajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santírana, votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, cuti): None of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. The stages, however, must have been more or less known. Cf. e.g Patth: ''Cakkhu-viññánam tam sampayuttaká ca dhammá (= cetasiká) mano-dhátuyá (performing the sampaticchana-function), tam sampayuttakánañ ca dhammánam (cetasikánani) anantara-paccayena paccayo. Mano-dhátu ... manoviññána-dhátuya (performing the santírana and votthapana function).... Purimá purimá kusalá dhammá (javaná) pacchimánam pacchimánam kusalánam dhammánam (javanacittánam) anantara-paccayena paccayo... avyákatánam dhammánam (tadárammana- and bhavanga-cittánam....)." 15493 From: egberdina Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 7:25am Subject: Why I would not join in on a study of Vis... Hi all, Recently Vicki and I went to see "I am Sam". The main character, amongst the twists and turns of the plot, explains his life in terms of the lyrics of Beatles songs and anecdotes about their life. So far so good. Language is metaphorical. It is all about establishing connections between this and that. Understanding one's life in terms of Beatles lyrics is no different to understanding it in terms of the Bible, Koran, or Donald Duck biographies. A problem looms on the horizon with the attempt at "correct" interpretation of language. This is insanity gone mad. Take the Beatles lyrics. We who live in the same lifetime as the Beatles are unable to resolve whether "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is a song about an LSD episode or a crayon drawing made by a little girl in kindergarten. Going back to the authors does not resolve the question. There are entrenched views, and that is that. Given these difficulties (entrenched views) when the sources are contemporary, how much more valueless will be the determinations as to the "correct" meaning of the Buddha's sayings arrived at by studying the interpretations of someone who lived many generations after the original insights were first put into words. Anders wrote something quite significant recently. "The point that I am trying to make (having found the words for it know, I think), is that Buddhism is NOT about having correct understanding of the scriptures, which I think many strive for. It is about getting to the understanding that produced the scriptures. The scriptures should not be verification for your own understanding. Rather, your understanding should be verification of the scriptures." One needs to assess for themselves whether a statement like this can be discarded as being arrogant. If yes, it is likely that the aim of any study one undertakes is just to find confirmation of entrenched views. And if that is the case, that is unfortunately all one will find. All the best Herman 15494 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 8:31am Subject: Nibbana Has No Cause Dear Dhamma friends The following conversation took place between Suan Lu Zaw and Therasa in the form of questions and answers. Theresa asked the following. "About the Four Noble Truths, -- The 2nd Noble Truth is the cause of the 1st Noble truth , and -- the 4th Noble Truth is the cause of the 3rd noble truth . Is that right ?? " Suan Lu Zaw answered the above question as follows. "The 2nd Noble Truth is the cause of the 1st Noble Truth. But, the 4th Noble Truth is NOT the cause of the 3rd Noble Truth." Therasa also asked the following. Is the 1st noble truth conditioned ?? ... Suan answerd Yes. Is the 2nd noble truth conditioned ?? ... Suan answerd Yes. Is the 3th noble truth conditioned ?? ... Suan answerd No. Is the 4th noble truth conditioned ?? ... Suan answerd Yes. Suan Lu Zaw additionally answered as follows. The Buddha's teachings are sometimes counter-intuitive. Even though it looked like the Path Truth as the cause of the Cessation Truth, it doesn't work that way. What the Path Truth does is to eradicate the results of our actions. That is to say, the actions carried out in line with the 4th Noble Truth no longer produce any result. The Buddha has explained the above phenomenon in Vitthaara Suttam on Kamma. To read a fresh translation of this Suttam and a modern psychological commentary on that Suttam, please visit The Science And Academic Journal Of Bodhiology on http://www.bodhiology.org . Now, the 3rd Noble Truth has been taught by the Buddha in order to confirm that the actions carried out under the 4th Noble Truth indeed no longer produce any result. Therefore, I have answered that the 3rd Noble Truth is not the result of the 4th Noble Truth. Hope that my answers satisfied your puzzle. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 15495 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] subtle point, to Kom Dear Kom, Thank you for replying, were you in an internet cafe? You took a lot of trouble. Maybe the monk who is walking conveys to himself, with mindfulness, that he is going forward now, and then there is kaya vinnatti. Looking forward to a report on the discussions at Niagara falls (sound, I am sure) and other places, With appreciation, Nina. op 04-09-2002 08:19 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > > The answer (that I want to hear and understand) is that she > said Bodily Kamma is not committed only through > kaya-vinnatti. Kaya-vinnatti is a way, but committing > bodily-kamma doesn't necessarily involve this rupa. If one > commits a kamma without wanting to communicate the meaning > (communicating meaning such as the godfather nodding to his > assasin to kill his enemy), then there is no kaya-vinnatti > involves. > > The other reminders she gave in this area include: > 1) There doesn't need to be a third party involved to > communicate meaning. We may talk to ourselves, or signal > bodily involving meanings even if there is no other third > party around. > 2) She said that if we understand that this rupa only lasts > one citta moment, at the point where the citta conditions > the communication of meanings, then we may understand this > better. This is over my head, so I don't think I can > explain any more. 15496 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] the Middle Way Dear Ken H, Howard and all, Ken, I should thank you, you made a very pointed remark: We know that we can be mindful naturally, that no preparation is necessary, but that does not mean that we should be lazy. I tend to forget viriya cetasika, its importance, but now I am reminded translating A. Sujin, the perfection of energy. It is a factor of enlightenment, a perfection and it is called . Some quotes: N: Viriya overcomes laziness, and when we read above: do not delay kusala, we can remember that kusala includes mindfulness of nama and rupa. Kom and Larry were discussing satipatthana and Kom mentioned that A. Sujin always teaches satipatthana. She keeps on explaining what seeing is, what visible object is. No matter we look around or in a mirror, only visible object appears through eyesense. That is satipatthana. The paramattha dhammas which are the objects of satipatthana are so near, but we are lazy and tend to forget. This reminds me about Howard's post on the four applications of mindfulness, are the first three about concepts? He wrote: Yes, one sees through the conventional objects to the elementary phenomena that compose them. However, I do not think this happens as a process starting at the first application and only happening at the fourth. When we read about the parts of the body it looks as if these are concepts. I looked up the Co. on the , Ch III, the Thirtytwo fold Aspect (See illustrator of Ultimate Meaning). It is used as a subject of Samatha and it is also included in Mindfulness of the Body. In Samatha one sees the aspect of the foulness and the aim is overcoming attachment to the body. When someone has accumulated skill for jhana he can attain it. We read: He should see the body parts as elements. We read: The Co states at the end that How could this happen without developing all the stages of insight which has paramattha dhammas as object? Those who have no inclination to develop jhana can be reminded to develop understanding of the true nature of realities when they hear about the parts of the body. It depends on the individual's inclinations, there is no rule. Body parts are so near, they are with us all the time. We are attached to them, we find them important, but they are only rupa elements. The same goes for the other subjects included in Mindfulness of the Body, such as breath. The jhanacitta experiences with absorption a nimitta, a of breath. In vipassana, one is mindful of the paramattha dhamma: the tangible object, or the three Elements of Earth, Fire or Wind. One should see rupa in the body. With appreciation, Nina. op 05-09-2002 12:02 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > Thank you for this message. Once again, you have given > me a lot to think about. > ----------- > > The understanding that visible object is "just what > appears through the eyes, that is all," strikes me as > entirely satisfactory and I think it is exactly what I > need to hear. Having learnt the futility of trying to > control mindfulness, I may be tending to dismiss the > possibility of right mindfulness. What you have said, > seems to be the middle way; neither `trying' nor `giving > up.' > 15497 From: Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Robert K. Admit it. You have a strong aversion to formal meditation practice. Recognizing this aversion when it arises is the only way to let go of it. Reasoning wont change your mind. Larry 15498 From: Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Sarah, Instead of saying concepts are not real why don't we say they are non-existent. If you agree to that we can translate your assertion into something like this: Thinking (ditthi) with concepts is real = thinking with non-existents exists. Is this what you are saying? As for satipatthana I believe you lot do understand satipatthana correctly; however, you also seem to have a totally unreasonable aversion to formal practice. This is a great pity. I look forward to the day when you can join the rest of your brothers and sisters on the ground of this great earth. Larry 15499 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 6:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mind-process (was, Upekkha vs. Tatramajjhattata) Hi Jon, This confirms what I already suspected. Thanks for the effort of researching this. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M > > --- robmoult wrote: > ... > > I would appreciate any links to detailed analysis of the thought > > process. I find the Abhidhammathasangha to be quite light in this > > area. Which of the original seven volumes did the thought process > > appear in? I know it wasn't the first as I have a copy. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > Below is what Nyanatiloka says on the origins of the details on the mind > process. Hope this is of interest. > > Jon > > citta-víthi, > (as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes of > conseiousness, such as ávajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santírana, > votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, cuti): > None of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. > Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or > thrice briefly mentioned. > The stages, however, must have been more or less known. Cf. e.g Patth: > ''Cakkhu-viññánam tam sampayuttaká ca dhammá (= cetasiká) mano- dhátuyá > (performing the sampaticchana-function), tam sampayuttakánañ ca dhammánam > (cetasikánani) anantara-paccayena paccayo. Mano-dhátu ... > manoviññána-dhátuya (performing the santírana and votthapana function).... > Purimá purimá kusalá dhammá (javaná) pacchimánam pacchimánam kusalánam > dhammánam (javanacittánam) anantara-paccayena paccayo... avyákatánam > dhammánam (tadárammana- and bhavanga-cittánam....)." > > > 15500 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 7:34pm Subject: Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hi All, For a number of reasons, I have decided to insert a "special class" into the Abhidhamma course syllabus on September 15 (the topic of the neutral cetasikas will be shifted until September 22). The topic of the next class will be "Buddhist Theory of Causation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity". I intend to summarize a book with this title (by Filita P. Bharucha) that I picked up recently in Colombo. I have been interested in this subject for many years, but never researched it. As a PhD thesis, the book includes a lot of math. The good news is that I took a number of courses in modern physics at university that covered the math behind Einstein's theories. That was 20 years ago, but I should be able to "dust off the cobwebs" sufficiently to present the concepts in layperson's language. Is there anybody in the DSG who has a similar interest and background so that we can enter into a discussion over the next week as I prepare my Class Notes? Does anybody know of documents or books (preferrably on-line) that cover this topic? The following books in my library touch on this subject very lightly: - The Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra - The Dancing Wu Li Masters by Gary Zukav - Abhidhamma Studies by Nyanaponika Thera (Chapter on "The Problem of Time") Let me leave you with a stimulating quote by Werner Heisenberg, one of the fathers of quantum mechanics: "The path comes into existence only when we observe it." (Heisenberg was talking about the path of nuclear particles.) Thanks, Rob M :-) 15501 From: Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/6/02 2:22:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Sarah, > > Instead of saying concepts are not real why don't we say they are > non-existent. If you agree to that we can translate your assertion into > something like this: > > Thinking (ditthi) with concepts is real = thinking with non-existents > exists. > > Is this what you are saying? > > As for satipatthana I believe you lot do understand satipatthana > correctly; however, you also seem to have a totally unreasonable > aversion to formal practice. This is a great pity. I look forward to the > day when you can join the rest of your brothers and sisters on the > ground of this great earth. > > Larry > > ================================= Larry, suppose there is a wooden boat called 'Anicca', composed of 500 boards of various sizes and shapes. One board is removed (it was warped) and replaced by another board of the same size and shape. Is this still the boat Anicca? Sure, most people would say. But what about when half the boards are replaced? Or 2/3? Or all the boards!? When all the boards have been replaced by new ones of the same sizes and shapes is this still the Anicca? Most people would say "yes", but that it was completely rebuilt. What makes it the same boat? Why is it still the same good old Anicca? Answer: It is because of CONVENTION, and ONLY convention. There is the concept of 'The Anicca', and we filter our experience through that concept. But what is actually the case? (1) The concept of 'The Anicca" is a real thought, mentally constructed, and observable through the mind door, and (2) it is "well founded" (as opposed to the concept of 'unicorn') in that it a mental construct which is applicable to certain collections of observed, interrelated phenomena but (3) its referent, the alleged boat, The Anicca, exists only conventionally and not in reality. In actuality, no matter how hard we look, we can't really find The Anicca, but only boards of various sizes and shapes. (The same applies, of course, to those boards! But that's another story.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15502 From: Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 3:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/6/02 10:35:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Let me leave you with a stimulating quote by Werner Heisenberg, one > of the fathers of quantum mechanics: > "The path comes into existence only when we observe it." > > (Heisenberg was talking about the path of nuclear particles.) > ======================== Ya see? another phenomenalist!! ;-)) With metta, howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15503 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 7:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hi Howard, Have you got the book, "Buddhist Phenomenology - A Theravadin Perspective" by Chandra B. Varma? If you are into Husserl, I think that you would really like it. If you want to order it, it will cost you US$16 and here is the site: http://www.dkpd.com/servlet/subjdisp? offset=600&subname=RELIGION:PHILOSOPHY [put this address on one line and search in alphabetical order, it is on screen #25] Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > > > Let me leave you with a stimulating quote by Werner Heisenberg, one > > of the fathers of quantum mechanics: > > "The path comes into existence only when we observe it." > > > > (Heisenberg was talking about the path of nuclear particles.) > > > ======================== > Ya see? another phenomenalist!! ;-)) > > With metta, > howard 15504 From: Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hi Rob, here's something: http://faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/ Larry 15505 From: Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Howard, what is thinking? Larry 15506 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hi Larry, Thanks for the excellent lead. I notice that there is a portion dedicated to my pet subject, "free will". Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, here's something: > http://faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/ > > Larry 15507 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 11:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hi Larry, and all, Thanks for this very interesting link, maybe a bit over my head - I have no maths or physics so I haven't attempted to read anything so far except Chapter 13. But I like the stories in Ch. 13 very much. There is one metaphor of a puppet and robot, different to the usual puppet teachings, and one on a snake and a rope that is also a little different, but emphasises absolute 'no control'. (I wonder why we inherit the fruits of our actions if we have absolutely no control in the first place?). 'Manifestation' is a different term for the self? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, here's something: > http://faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/ > > Larry 15508 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 0:20am Subject: Re: Meditation and Satipatthana --- Dear Erik, Somehow or other it seems to me that we are not very far apart these days. I agree with most of your points so just want to clarify a little(sorry for sniping some of your excellent pieces) In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > > Someone here recently mentioned the Zen practice of "shikantaza"-- > which is the practice of taking whatever arises as the object of > investigation. The Tibetan schools have many approaches that employ > this type of mindfulness to whatever arises as well. In all cases, > these are considered advanced practices for those who have already > developed sati and samadhi to a very high degree, such that the mind > can remain undistracted for long periods of time. _______________ I appreciate that the aim of many meditation techniques is to concentrate and so minimize distraction. But I also know - as I think you do- that 'distraction' is only concept (whatever it is) and that it is aversion to the distraction that is the problem. So there are two ways to go: either develop samatha by means of wholesome concentration on an object such as death; or know the reality of the moment(then the 'distraction becomes the object). I think no rule as to which is best or when to apply- it is our own path of inquiry that will teach us when one or the other is right. > By constrast, to skip the rudiments of bhavana (like seated > meditation with favorable external conditions, such as quiet and so > on) in favor of attempting to know that there is "just seeing", for > example, there is little or no development--at least not of samma > sati. You know we have only 4 postures - sitting, walking, lying and standing. So any awareness has to occur during this time. I used to have rather subtle thoughts, still do, that another time, another place another posture, another feeling, would be a better condition for awareness. Gradually I've begun to learn- just a tad and not very often- that there is only the here and now. That investigating what is here now is more fundamental and basic than getting into an ideal external situation. Because that ideal doesn't really exist - it is a concept tied up with craving that obscures the present moment. I think then the quiet places become more common - little moments while in a crowd that are there more often than we realise. But you would be taking this the wrong way if you think this means I am saying don't go off to quiet places. Robert 15509 From: egberdina Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 0:48am Subject: Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Larry, Seeing as Howard is sometimes given to calling me Larry, I'm sure he won't mind me butting in. I hope you don't mind either. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, what is thinking? > > Larry I think that one predominant aspect of thinking is that it is non- vocalised or pre-vocalised speech. Wishing you all the best Herman 15510 From: egberdina Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hi Rob M, This is probably only slightly related to your original question, but it may still be of interest. There is some research in process in Australia which promises to demonstrate that the speed of light is not constant, but variable. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > Thanks for the excellent lead. I notice that there is a portion > dedicated to my pet subject, "free will". > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Rob, here's something: > > http://faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/ > > > > Larry I'm a seeking a Enter city or ZIP Age: to Show only profiles with photos 15511 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hi Herman, Are you referring to the theory that the speed of light in the universe has been decreasing over time? I will probably mention this as an aside during the presentation to shake people up (i.e. current models are still being refined). Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > This is probably only slightly related to your original question, but > it may still be of interest. > > There is some research in process in Australia which promises to > demonstrate that the speed of light is not constant, but variable. > > All the best > > Herman > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > > > Thanks for the excellent lead. I notice that there is a portion > > dedicated to my pet subject, "free will". > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > > > Hi Rob, here's something: > > > http://faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/ > > > > > > Larry 15512 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1) / Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hey Ken H, once you indicate an interest it becomes not "whatever > document YOU decide on" but "whatever document WE decide on" :) > It will be great to have you join in. :) > > What do you reckon? Any suggestions? Preferably something on-line, > so we can all access it .... Thanks Christine, I'll get the hang of this joining-in business one day. :-) There's so much to choose from, we might have to toss a coin. I'd like to add The Ten Perfections to the list -- no shortage of on-line material there, thanks to Nina and K. Sujin. Kind regards Ken H 15513 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > Thinking (ditthi) with concepts is real = thinking with non-existents > exists. ..... I’d like to change it to: “Thinking (i.e cittas accompanied by various cetasikas which many or many not include ditthi) OF concepts is real = Thinking OF non-existents exists”. The concepts or ‘non-existents’ are phantoms of the imagination. ..... > As for satipatthana I believe you lot do understand satipatthana > correctly; however, you also seem to have a totally unreasonable > aversion to formal practice. This is a great pity. I look forward to the > day when you can join the rest of your brothers and sisters on the > ground of this great earth. ..... May I be very cheeky and quote your reply to Rob M: “All I can say is been there, done that". What I mean to suggest is merely that some of us here understand and appreciate exactly what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. When I first met Rob K, he may not have used your exact words, but the sentiment was strikingly similar and I think that contrary to the assertion about the aversion to formal practice, most of us have come from a background of an incredible amount of attachment for it. In my own case, in spite of considerable attachment, the relief and joy of no longer needing to follow any ‘rules’ in terms of time, place and action for the development of satipatthana was (and has been ever since) tremendous. For me, this understanding was what brought my ‘practice’ back down to earth. No longer were long hours working in difficult conditions or family problems seen as an interruption to practice. No longer were the crowds or hours travelling on public transport considered as cutting into thedevelopment of sati (awareness). No longer were temple and forest life considered as more favourable. No longer were my interests and hobbies and natural tendencies in need of suppression. No longer was there an idea of a persona or aura to be cultivated. Perhaps, of most importance, no longer was there an illusion of having gained higher insights than was the case. In other words, the bump back down to earth coincided with the understanding of many of the wrong views accumulated. We can only know for ourselves on this score and I’m sure neither Rob K nor I or anyone else here minds in the slightest how much or little F.M. anyone else does. It’s a matter of individual interest and inclination. just as now, there are many changing cittas - kusala and akusala. To be very cheeky and quote you back once again: “I've learned more about the dhamma through abhidhamma study than any other way. If you are like me, what you have right now is an attitude problem. Attitude changes from moment to moment, day to day. You could look at this attitude as it arises and recognize it as an impermanent phenomenon, "not me". Everyone changes all the time, but I hope you will stay with abhidhamma. You have made an excellent contribution to this group ........People can get sutta study anywhere, but abhidhamma study is rare. If it doesn't provide you with an answer to every question that pops into your head, maybe you need to rest the head. This stuff is deeper than deep. Let it work on you.” ***** Larry, I can’t say it better than that. Thankyou for putting the words into my mouth;-) Very best wishes, Sarah ===== 15514 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why I would not join in on a study of Vis... Hi, Herman - See, I paid attention to whom was replying to this time! ;-) If I found that could manage to take the time to do the matter justice yet still get my work done, I believe I *would* participate in such a study. I would do this for at least the following resons: 1) Buddhaghosa's work lies at the dead (no innuendo here!) center of the commentarial tradition of Theravada, and it is (a) the Tipitaka plus (b) the commentarial tradition plus (c) the practice lineages that *constitute* Theravada. 2) As many reservations as I have about certain aspects of Theravada (in the Abhidhamma, the commentaries, and the practice of some) and as much of value as I find in parts of Mahayana, I find myself clearly a Theravadin, and believe, thus, that it is encumbant upon me to come to better understand this tradition. 3) I've owned a copy of the Visuddhimagga for years, and have yet to really get through it. (The best I've done is look at parts of it from time to time.) I don't like to have significant works just sitting around un-read! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/6/02 10:26:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi all, > > Recently Vicki and I went to see "I am Sam". The main character, > amongst the twists and turns of the plot, explains his life in terms > of the lyrics of Beatles songs and anecdotes about their life. > > So far so good. Language is metaphorical. It is all about > establishing connections between this and that. Understanding one's > life in terms of Beatles lyrics is no different to understanding it > in terms of the Bible, Koran, or Donald Duck biographies. > > A problem looms on the horizon with the attempt at "correct" > interpretation of language. This is insanity gone mad. > > Take the Beatles lyrics. We who live in the same lifetime as the > Beatles are unable to resolve whether "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" > is a song about an LSD episode or a crayon drawing made by a little > girl in kindergarten. Going back to the authors does not resolve the > question. There are entrenched views, and that is that. > > Given these difficulties (entrenched views) when the sources are > contemporary, how much more valueless will be the determinations as > to the "correct" meaning of the Buddha's sayings arrived at by > studying the interpretations of someone who lived many generations > after the original insights were first put into words. > > Anders wrote something quite significant recently. > > "The point that I am trying to make (having found the words for it > know, I think), is that Buddhism is NOT about having correct > understanding of the scriptures, which I think many strive for. It is > about getting to the understanding that produced the scriptures. The > scriptures should not be verification for your own understanding. > Rather, your understanding should be verification of the scriptures." > > One needs to assess for themselves whether a statement like this can > be discarded as being arrogant. If yes, it is likely that the aim of > any study one undertakes is just to find confirmation of entrenched > views. And if that is the case, that is unfortunately all one will > find. > > > > All the best > > > Herman > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15515 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/6/02 10:57:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Have you got the book, "Buddhist Phenomenology - A Theravadin > Perspective" by Chandra B. Varma? > > If you are into Husserl, I think that you would really like it. > > If you want to order it, it will cost you US$16 and here is the site: > > http://www.dkpd.com/servlet/subjdisp? > offset=600&subname=RELIGION:PHILOSOPHY > > [put this address on one line and search in alphabetical order, it > is on screen #25] > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > =============================== Thanks for this. No, I've never studied Husserl - my phenomenalism is on the informal side, and is influenced by the Dhamma and by William James. BTW, this book is one of three I ordered two days ago! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15516 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/7/02 12:06:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, what is thinking? > > Larry > > ============================= My definition might be "Thinking is the flow of thoughts and the manipulation of same." An alternative definition: "Thinking is the one thing we so-called Buddhists do too much of"! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15517 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi, Robert and Erik - In a message dated 9/7/02 3:21:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robertkirkpatrick@r... writes: > --- > Dear Erik, > Somehow or other it seems to me that we are not very far apart these > days. I agree with most of your points so just want to clarify a > little(sorry for sniping some of your excellent pieces) > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > > > Someone here recently mentioned the Zen practice of "shikantaza"-- > > which is the practice of taking whatever arises as the object of > > investigation. The Tibetan schools have many approaches that employ > > this type of mindfulness to whatever arises as well. In all cases, > > these are considered advanced practices for those who have already > > developed sati and samadhi to a very high degree, such that the > mind > > can remain undistracted for long periods of time. > _______________ > > I appreciate that the aim of many meditation techniques is to > concentrate and so minimize distraction. But I also know - as I think > you do- that 'distraction' is only concept (whatever it is) and that > it is aversion to the distraction that is the problem. So there are > two ways to go: either develop samatha by means of wholesome > concentration on an object such as death; or know the reality of the > moment(then the 'distraction becomes the object). I think no rule as > to which is best or when to apply- it is our own path of inquiry that > will teach us when one or the other is right. > > > > By constrast, to skip the rudiments of bhavana (like seated > > meditation with favorable external conditions, such as quiet and so > > on) in favor of attempting to know that there is "just seeing", for > > example, there is little or no development--at least not of samma > > sati. > > You know we have only 4 postures - sitting, walking, lying and > standing. So any awareness has to occur during this time. I used to > have rather subtle thoughts, still do, that another time, another > place another posture, another feeling, would be a better condition > for awareness. Gradually I've begun to learn- just a tad and not > very often- that there is only the here and now. That investigating > what is here now is more fundamental and basic than getting into an > ideal external situation. Because that ideal doesn't really exist - > it is a concept tied up with craving that obscures the present moment. > I think then the quiet places become more common - little moments > while in a crowd that are there more often than we realise. > > But you would be taking this the wrong way if you think this means I > am saying don't go off to quiet places. > > > Robert > =========================== I find myself on both sides of this fence. To see a biological specimen clearly and with intricate detail, we use a powerful microscope with clean and well polished lenses. Analogous to this is, I believe, a mind with powerful concentration and mindfulness. However, a biologist studies specimens with his bare eyes as well, with much benefit. Likewise, I think that an ongoing mindfulness practice at "ordinary times" is also essential. I feel a bit like Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof (and, more generally, from Shalom Aleichem stories) who says "Yes, you're right!", and turning to the one who has said the opposite, "Yes, you're right too!" ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15518 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 8:08am Subject: Was Plato a Buddhist? (sorry, long post) Hi All, Ever since I was a teenager, I was intrigued by Plato's allegory of the cave. I have reproduced it below as a dialogue between Socrates and Glaucon (Glaucon is basically a "yes-man" and his comments are in square brackets). Plato starts this allegory in a Buddhist way, but then ends up getting muddled when he applies this to mundane issues (politics, role of a philosopher, etc.). I understand that Plato claimed that he could remember his previous lives, but believed that there was a maximum of ten rebirths. I am curious. Has anybody in the DSG studied Plato? Can somebody make a summary of the main similarities / differences between Plato and Buddha? Thanks, Rob M :-) ======= The Allegory of the Cave - Plato's Republic Book VII And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened:, Behold! human beings living in an underground den, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets. [I see.] And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent. [You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.] Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave? [True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?] And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows? [Yes, he said.] [And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them? And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy, when one of the passers- by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow? [No question, he replied.] To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images. [That is certain.] And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision,, what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing And when to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him? [Far truer.] And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take refuge in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him? [True, he said.] And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he is forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities? [Not all in a moment, he said.] He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day? [Certainly.] Last of all he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is. [Certainly.] He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold? [Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about it.] And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the den and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them? [Certainly, he would.] And if they were in the habit of conferring honors among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honors and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer, Better to be the poor servant of a poor master, and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner? [Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner.] Imagine once more, I said, such a one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation; would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness? [To be sure, he said.] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the den, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable), would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death. [No question, he said.] This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed, whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally either in public or private life must have his eye fixed. [I agree, he said, as far as I am able to understand you.] Moreover, I said, you must not wonder that those who attain to this beatific vision are unwilling to descend to human affairs; for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell; which desire of theirs is very natural, if our allegory may be trusted. [Yes, very natural.] And is there anything surprising in one who passes from divine contemplations to the evil state of man, when they returned to the den they would see much worse than those who had never left it. himself in a ridiculous manner; if, while his eyes are blinking and before he has become accustomed to the surrounding darkness, he is compelled to fight in courts of law, or in other places, about the images or the shadows of images of justice, and is endeavoring to meet the conceptions of those who have never yet seen absolute justice? [Anything but surprising, he replied.] Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments of the eyes are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true of the mind's eye, quite as much as of the bodily eye; and he who remembers this when he sees any one whose vision is perplexed and weak, will not be too ready to laugh; he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter life, and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark, or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by excess of light. And he will count the one happy in his condition and state of being, and he will pity the other; or, if he has a mind to laugh at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than in the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the den. [That, he said, is a very just distinction.] But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must be wrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was not there before, like sight into blind eyes? [They undoubtedly say this, he replied.] Whereas, our argument shows that the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already; and that just as the eye was unable to turn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the instrument of knowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the world of becoming into that of being, and learn by degrees to endure the sight of being, and of the brightest and best of being, or in other words, of the good. [Very true.] And must there not be some art which will effect conversion in the easiest and quickest manner; not implanting the faculty of sight, for that exists already, but has been turned in the wrong direction, and is looking away from the truth? [Yes, he said, such an art may be presumed.] And whereas the other so-called virtues of the soul seem to be akin to bodily qualities, for even when they are not originally innate they can be implanted later by habit and exercise, the virtue of wisdom more than anything else contains a divine element which always remains, and by this conversion is rendered useful and profitable; or, on the other hand, hurtful and useless. Did you never observe the narrow intelligence flashing from the keen eye of a clever rogue, how eager he is, how clearly his paltry soul sees the way to his end; he is the reverse of blind, but his keen eye- sight is forced into the service of evil, and he is mischievous in proportion to his cleverness? [Very true, he said.] But what if there had been a circumcision of such natures in the days of their youth; and they had been severed from those sensual pleasures, such as eating and drinking, which, like leaden weights, were attached to them at their birth, and which drag them down and turn the vision of their souls upon the things that are below, if, I say, they had been released from these impediments and turned in the opposite direction, the very same faculty in them would have seen the truth as keenly as they see what their eyes are turned to now. [Very likely.] Yes, I said; and there is another thing which is likely, or Neither rather a necessary inference from what has preceded, that neither the uneducated and uninformed of the truth, nor yet those who never make an end of their education, will be able educated ministers of State; not the former, because they have no single aim of duty which is the rule of all their actions, private as well as public; nor the latter, because they will not act at all except upon compulsion, fancying that they are already dwelling apart in the islands of the blest. [Very true, he replied.] Then, I said, the business of us who are the founders of the State will be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which we have already shown to be the greatest of all, they must continue to ascend until they arrive at the good; but when they have ascended and seen enough we must not allow them to do as they do now. [What do you mean?] I mean that they remain in the upper world: but this must not be allowed; they must be made to descend again among the prisoners in the den, and partake of their labors and honors, whether they are worth having or not. [But is not this unjust? he said; ought we to give them a worse life, when they might have a better?] You have again forgotten, my friend, I said, the intention of the legislator, who did not aim at making any one class in the State happy above the rest; the happiness was to be in the whole State, and he held the citizens together by persuasion and necessity, making them benefactors of the State, and therefore benefactors of one another; to this end he created them, not to please themselves, but to be his instruments in binding up the State. [True, he said, I had forgotten.] Observe, Glaucon, that there will be no injustice in compelling our philosophers to have a care and providence of others; we shall explain to them that in other States, men of their class are not obliged to share in the toils of politics: and this is reasonable, for they grow up at their own sweet will, and the government would rather not have them. Being self-taught, they cannot be expected to show any gratitude for a culture which they have never received. But we have brought you into the world to be rulers of the hive, kings of yourselves and of the other citizens, and have educated you far better and more perfectly than they have been educated, and you are better able to share in the double duty. That is why each of you, when his turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get the habit of seeing in the dark. When you have acquired the habit, you will see ten thousand times better than the inhabitants of the den, and you will know what the several images are, and what they represent, because you have seen the beautiful and just and good in their truth. And thus our State, which is also yours will be a reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in a spirit unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another about shadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in their eyes is a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers are most reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed, and the State in which they are most eager, the worst. [Quite true, he replied.] And will our pupils, when they hear this, refuse to take their turn at the toils of State, when they are allowed to spend the greater part of their time with one another in the heavenly light? [ Impossible, he answered; for they are just men, and the commands which we impose upon them are just; there can be no doubt that every one of them will take office as a stern necessity, and not after the fashion of our present rulers of State.] Yes, my friend, I said; and there lies the point. You must contrive for your future rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler, and then you may have a well-ordered State; for only in the State which offers this, will they rule who are truly rich, not in silver and gold, but in virtue and wisdom, which are the true blessings of life. Whereas if they go to the administration of public affairs, poor and hungering after their own private advantage, thinking that hence they are to snatch the chief good, order there can never be; for they will be fighting about office, and the civil and domestic broils which thus arise will be the ruin of the rulers themselves and of the whole State. [Most true, he replied.] And the only life which looks down upon the life of political ambition is that of true philosophy. Do you know of any other? [Indeed, I do not, he said.] And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight. [No question.] Who then are those whom we shall compel to be guardians? Surely they will be the men who are wisest about affairs of the state. 15519 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 10:02am Subject: anapanasati, part 5 Part 5. We have to go back to the fourth tetrad of the sutta: (XIII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence². (XIV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating fading away²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating fading away². (XV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating cessation²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating cessation². (XVI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment². (then as translated by Ven. Nyanatiloka:) <..on that occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful ,having put away covetousness and grief with regard to the world. Having see with understanding what is the abandoning of covetousness and grief, he becomes one who looks on with complete equanimity. That is why on that occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful ,having put away covetousness and grief with regard to the world. That is how respiration-mindfulness, developed and repeatedly practised, perfects the four foundations of mindfulness.> **** The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 237) states about the fourth tetrad, ŒThis tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three deal with serenity and insight.¹ As regards the words of the fourth tetrad, ³(XIII) I shall breathe in... breathe out contemplating impermanence², the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 234) states: Œ ... Impermanence is the rise and fall and change in those same khandhas, or it is their non-existence after having been; the meaning is, it is the break-up of produced khandhas through their momentary dissolution since they do not remain in the same mode. Contemplation of impermanence is contemplation of materiality, etc., as ³impermanent² in virtue of that impermanence...¹ As regards the clause: ³(XIV) I shall breathe in... breathe out contemplating fading away², the Visuddhimagga states that there are two kinds of fading away, namely: ³fading away as destruction² which is the ³momentary dissolution of formations² (conditioned realities) and ³absolute fading away² which is nibbåna. The text (Visuddhimagga VIII, 235) states: Œ... Contemplation of fading away is insight and it is the path, which occur as the seeing of these two. It is when he possesses this twofold contemplation that it can be understood of him ³He trains thus, I shall breathe in... shall breathe out contemplating fading away.² ¹ The same method of explanation is applied to the clause ³contemplating cessation² (XV). And with regard to the clause (XVI) ³contemplating relinquishment², the Visuddhimagga states: ³relinquishment is of two kinds too, that is to say, relinquishment as giving up, and relinquishment as entering into.² ³Giving up² is the giving up of defilements, and ³entering into² is the entering into nibbåna, the Visuddhimagga explains. We read: The fourth tetrad pertains to the contemplation of dhammas (mental objects) in dhammas. We read in the Commentary to the Sutta (translated by Ven. Nyanatiloka) about the explanations of the words of the sutta: : here covetousness is the hindrance of lust. By grief the hindrance of ill will is pointed out. For this tetrad is stated by way of insight. And contemplation of mental objects is sixfold... Of that contemplation, the section on the hindrances is the beginning... Accordingly, he said, in order to point out the beginning of the contemplation of mental objects. (phaana.m) means it is the knowledge of abandoning, thus, that is intended... N: The Co refers to higher stages of insight knowledge leading to more detachment from conditioned realities: fading away (viraaga~naa.na), cessation (nirodha ~naa.na), and relinquishment (pa.tinissagga). We read further on: : because one who proceeds by the method, etc., is one who looks on with complete equanimity after successively seeing with understanding not only the mental objects beginning with the hindrances, but also the knowledge of the abandoning of the mental objects stated under the heading of covetousness and grief. Therefore, it should be understood that Nina: In the Way of Mindfulness, Co translated by Ven. Soma, it is stated that just as in the case of body, feeling and citta, the mental objects should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up. As we have seen, the hindrances are classified under the mental objects, and they include also the khandhas, the sense-bases (ayatanas), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four Truths. I shall paste part of Jon¹ s post and quote from The Way of Mindfulness, Co translated by Ven. Soma: Jon: The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a dhamma’; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from The Way of Mindfulness: Section on Mental Objects 2. The Aggregates "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks: 'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and thus is the disappearance of material form. Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the disappearance of feeling. Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception. Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations; and thus is the disappearance of the formations. Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally ... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] ***** 15520 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dreams Dear Howard, thank you very much for the additional tips. Lodewijk is very grateful and will try. It will work in the long run. With appreciation, Nina. op 05-09-2002 19:47 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > =========================== > I hope it is helpful. 15521 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Sarah, Concepts: I'm not sure what a concept is. Sometimes it seems that "concept" means "sankhata," any compound. So for clarity's sake let's say "concept" means "word." When people say words are not real that is loose talk in the sense of being not precise. Anything that can be clung to must be a khandha. People do cling to words. So what do you mean when you say words are not real? Meditation: Actually this study of abhidhamma has opened my eyes to what meditation _should_ be. I completely agree with you that there is a tremendous amount of muddling around in so-called meditation. Most of the time I have no idea what I am doing. The study of anapanasati and satipatthana has made me eager to understand more and apply it in meditation. I will leave you and the rest of the gang in peace as to your own path, that is a matter of individual accumulations. But I strongly disagree that meditation is something suited only to an elite few. Meditation is for anyone. Larry 15522 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Herman and Howard, My initial thought was that there are two kinds of thinking: mechanical and discursive. Possibly the mecanical underlies the discursive. What I am mostly interested in though is the discursive. This is what I most often grasp and cling to. So in order to have confidence that thinking is "not me" I would like to know the components of thought and how thinking works. It occured to me that posssibly sanna forms thoughts but I'm not sure. Any insights? Larry 15523 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana --- LBIDD@w... wrote: >> I will leave you and the rest of the gang in peace > as to your own path, > that is a matter of individual accumulations. But I > strongly disagree > that meditation is something suited only to an elite > few. Meditation is > for anyone. Sadhu. -fk 15524 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 0:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/7/02 2:35:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Herman and Howard, > > My initial thought was that there are two kinds of thinking: mechanical > and discursive. Possibly the mecanical underlies the discursive. What I > am mostly interested in though is the discursive. This is what I most > often grasp and cling to. So in order to have confidence that thinking > is "not me" I would like to know the components of thought and how > thinking works. It occured to me that posssibly sanna forms thoughts but > I'm not sure. Any insights? > > Larry > ========================== I'm no expert on this. For me, it is sufficient to know a thought when I see one! (Obviously thoughts are formations, and clearly [to me] sa~n~na plays a role in their creation). I think there are several sorts of thinking that are counterproductive, among which are trains of thought that one is "lost" in (i.e., seriously unmindful of), trains of thoughts that have compulsive aspects to them, and trains of thought that reinforce, even cultivate, craving, aversion, and ego gratification. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15525 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 4:08pm Subject: Re: Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hello Rob M, Perhaps you might begin with a discussion of how the Dhamma and science are related, if you haven't already done so. I remember — and it seems long ago — reading Jayatilleke and Rahula giving very positive accounts of how Buddhism was quite rational / experimental and very much in accord with science. The actual practice seems to be a mix of hostility (they don't mix) and supermarket tabloid illiteracy (though I do look forward to seeing the two-headed Romanian violinist when he tours). Obviously science doesn't have all the answers; 'scientism' (the belief that the methods and objects recognized in science are the only appropriate techniques and elements) is rejected even by scientists. But do we agree with the Dalai Lama that the Dhamma must ultimately yield to science? Even so this gives a lot of wiggle room (like the Kalama sutta ;-). Cartesian dualism (nama-rupa as separate realities) is way on the outs, but certainly not eliminated. Psychic powers are sort of a joke, but who can really know? Rebirth has nothing to be said for it but clearly remains possible. But there are some things that won't be overturned by any future scientific revisions: e.g., we'll never return to a flat earth or geocentric universe. Fairly limited though, it seems. Let me offer to two examples of dead ideas, one peripheral, one more central. Jivitindriya, or the life faculty, came up recently in discussing killing. If this is seen as some sort of elan vital, something that separates the living from the inorganic creating the former, it's long defunct. (Of course it can be seen as just life itself; then an interesting and useful inquiry becomes possible about death and life signs.) Shouldn't it be discarded? Is there anything you would discard, and why/not? We know that people can only consciously register images flashed for many hundreds of a second; a bit slower and they subliminally imprint, as can be demonstrated by their effects on behavior, but are not consciously seen. But much faster (still in the several hundreds of a second) and they can't be seen. So the theory that moments of consciousness last only a few billionths of a second (or less!) is beyond rational belief. Something else to dispose of, or reconcieve? If not, again, what are the criteria? metta, stephen 15526 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 4:09pm Subject: Phenomen-alism/ology + Plato Hello all, There was, throughout most of the twentieth century, a split between British and continental philosophy. It is, in many ways, ongoing, though things are much more fluid now. The subject distinction of this post falls on completely different sides of this divide. Phenomenalism is a (British, or Anglo-American) theory of perception. In Mill's famous words, that 'objects are the permanent possibility of sensation.' Talk about external objects is to be replaced by talk about possible experiences. Howard notes that this was James view, as it was Russell's. This is a view that pretty much ended with the work of the latter Wittgenstein and company and has not really been active since before the second world war. Perhaps it will stage a comeback, the problem of qualia certainly being unresolved within analytic philosophy. (I would recommend Paul's "Is There a Problem with Sense data" and Austin's "Sense and Sensibilia" for anyone tempted into this approach. Perhaps Howard can offer a positive work; I know of none that aren't difficult. Something by Ayer, perhaps?). Phenomenology, of which I know much less, was a continental program; I don't know if it's a currently active program, or in it what form. I suspect that neither Husserl nor Merleau-Ponty have too many advocates. It is an attempt to describe consciousness in abstraction from its (intentional) contents. The point of this post being that they are two separate and not to be conflated philosophies. However, the use of the 'epoche', or bracketing of experience (the suspension of belief) appears to give priority to experience, or certain forms of putatively elementary experiences. This despite Husserl's contention that he had resolved the mind/body dichotomy, giving equal billing to both. As such it does appear to parallel phenomenalism; and that's precisely why both have fallen on hard times. Just as Wittgenstein undermined Cartesian dualism by showing the problems with the inner spectator theory of mind and the meaninglessness of language (ostensive definition) used in such contexts, so Merleau-Ponty put experience back into reality, into it's world and body involving context. metta, stephen BTW, I'm sure there must be some parallels between Buddhism and Plato, but not, I think, the metaphor of the cave. What we see and experience (in this story) are mere shadows of the forms, which are independent, real, changeless entities — sort of anti-Buddhist objects. They cause things (i.e., trees, humans), which are their pale imitations. Forms are entities of a special kind in that they can only be known rationally, not through the senses (except, possibly, obscurely, when we're dead — unembodied direct apprehension). The sun in the story is the supreme form, the Form of the Good. Knowing the forms is knowledge, knowing through the senses is opinion. The political stuff is a bunch of malarkey about how only those who have direct, mystical experience of The Good are fit to rule. They'd be the very last. 15527 From: Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 8:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati, part 5 "Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception." Hi Nina and all, I was wondering what is used as object for mindfulness of perception. I thought possibly memory. Larry 15528 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Larry Thanks for inviting me in on this thread, and sorry to take so long to respond. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > Second, as for meditation, what I am hearing as implication from you, > Jon, Robert, and Nina is don't bother to meditate because you will > probably get it wrong. Instead, just study and eventually the truth will > accumulate in your continuum. I think this is bad advice. What I would > like instead is for you to encourage people to meditate but be open to > correction. Beyond that, what I would really like is for Acharn Sujin to > give meditation instruction. As recent discussions have shown, there are > many ways of implementing this 'only way' of satipatthana. I would like > to see what sort of program she could come up with. My view on the usefulness or appropriateness of formal meditation practice issue is simple: anything that's supported by the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries, either expressly or implicitly, as being appropriate for the development of the path is to be encouraged (but if it's not, then not). In determining what falls within this ambit, I don't believe one can rely on generally held ideas among Buddhist groups, or on the assurances of others. I think it's necessary to look at the texts for oneself. Nor do i think one can simply rely on results of just any 'practice' that seem to match things found in the texts; the 'practice' must be as indicated by the Buddha from the outset, otherwise the results cannot be the real thing -- they will give a 'false positive'. I've just been looking again through the Satipatthana Sutta, this time focussing on what I might call the 'operative words', that is, the key terms used by the Buddha in describing how each of the 4 foundations/arousings of mindfulness is carried out. I list these out below. I think they make interesting reading. [Body] Mindful, he breathes in thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands 'thinking thus, he trains himself understands: 'I am going'; is a person practising clear comprehension reflects... thinking thus thinks of his own body thus [Feeling] experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands... [Consciousness] understands the consciousness with lust [Mental objects] knows with understanding [5 hindrances] thinks: 'Thus is material form...' [5 khandhas] understands the eye and material forms [6 sense-bases] knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor [7 enlightenment factors] understands: 'This is suffering,' [4 noble truths] This doesn't seem to me like the language of formal meditation practice. Do you see anything here, or elsewhere in the sutta, that points to a formal meditation practice? Jon 15529 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 9:53pm Subject: Searching for 'Courage' in the Teachings Dear Group, I have been thinking a lot recently around the subject of Courage. I couldn't find much on 'courage' in the scriptures - though there was much on fear and terror. Some Pali words related to courage are: courage (nt.) viriya. (f.) dhiti; abhãrutà. (m.) parakkama; courageous (adj.) såra; vãra; dhitimantu; viriyavantu;; courageously (adv.) savikkamaü; courageousness (nt.) såratta; vãratta, which don't bring anything much up on a Search. Then it occurred to me that as others of the admired 'worldly' qualities are not so admired within Buddhism ("righteous anger" springs to mind) - perhaps there are reasons why some types of courage are also not admired? Not sure. To me, Courage is more than the absence of fear. Courage is the 'not giving in to' or the 'overcoming' of fear. I know what it is in the worldly sense - it comes from the Old French word for 'heart' - it is the strength to do or face something that one finds frightening. It means feeling fear, but enduring that feeling, standing firm against whatever comes, and doing what needs to be done despite it. It is the quality for which, on a public level, civilian and military awards are given. But it is when that quality is exhibited privately (whether by a human or animal), with usually no recognition, that I feel it is most to be admired. I also looked at related words like 'encourage' which means 'give hope or courage' and 'inspire wtih confidence'. A friend told me about the cetasika Saddha (confidence) and how courage could be related to it. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas27.html I had previously called Saddha 'faith' (with the negative connotations that word carries for one coming from a 'faith-based' religion). As well, I looked at the Bhayabherava Sutta (Fear and Dread) and the Buddha's words "Whenever recluses or brahmins unpurified in verbal conduct ...unpurified in mental conduct ... unpurified in livelihood resort to remote jungle-thicket resting places in the forest ... they evoke unwholesome fear and dread." My understanding at this point is that firming up courage and overcoming fear depends on two things 1. Somehow increasing the power of ones Saddha and 2. Somehow decreasing the power of ones Defilements. Just have to find out how ..... metta, Christine 15530 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 10:13pm Subject: Re: Why I would not join in on a study of Vis... Dear Herman, ------------------------------------- You said: "Take the Beatles lyrics. We who live in the same lifetime as the Beatles are unable to resolve whether "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is a song about an LSD episode or a crayon drawing made by a little girl in kindergarten. Going back to the authors does not resolve the question. There are entrenched views, and that is that." ------------------------------------- Is that really so? It seems it is easily resolvable by checking the consistent statements of the author and of those reliable ones who knew him - it seems that there is verifiable evidence as to the real inspiration for the song. "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" http://www.snopes.com/music/hidden/lucysky.htm "Looking back at this matter nowadays, however, there is little question but that John's explanation was an accurate and honest one. He did not merely claim that the title was a coincidental invention of his own but offered a specific, external explanation of its origins; he provided this explanation at the time the song was released; he maintained the same explanation for the rest of his life; and his explanation is corroborated by others." --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > Hi all, > > Recently Vicki and I went to see "I am Sam". The main character, > amongst the twists and turns of the plot, explains his life in terms > of the lyrics of Beatles songs and anecdotes about their life. > 15531 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1)/ Ken H Dear Ken H,and All, I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say : "May I add though, that I'm not really interested in hearing how anyone agrees with some parts and disagrees with others. I'd rather we concentrate on understanding the original text. Kind regards Ken H" -------------------------------------------- Amicable discussions of the Teachngs are a wonderful thing and help to arrive at a deeper understanding, but there are no winners in 'debates' over practice, or disputing the validity of parts of the Dhamma. Implying others are wrong, not as widely read or mislead is not fruitful. Providing what is posted agrees with the Tipitaka, let each tread their own path. Some have mentioned others as not having the 'experience'. No-one knows the life history of others on this List. No-one knows the citta of another. As the Home Page states, this is a Theravadin Dhammastudy List set up to discuss the Three Baskets of the Tipitaka and their Commentaries, and IMO, our main focus should be studying of those texts. with much metta, Christine ----------------------------------------- An excerpt from the Pasura Sutta Among those who live above confrontation not pitting view against view, whom would you gain as opponent, Pasura, among those here who are grasping no more? So here you come, conjecturing, your mind conjuring viewpoints. You're paired off with a pure one and so cannot proceed. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-08.html --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Larry, Christine, Sarah, . . . > > I'd like to enrol in the new abhidhamma class. 15532 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 11:19pm Subject: Re: Einstein's Theory of Relativity/ Stephen Hello Stephen, I wonder if you could kindly expand on each of your following statements: "the Dalai Lama [said] that the Dhamma must ultimately yield to science? Even so this gives a lot of wiggle room (like the Kalama sutta ;-). Cartesian dualism (nama-rupa as separate realities) is way on the outs, but certainly not eliminated. Psychic powers are sort of a joke, but who can really know? Rebirth has nothing to be said for it but clearly remains possible." with gratitude in anticipation of an elucidating reply - metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello Rob M, > Perhaps you might begin with a discussion of how the Dhamma and science are > related, if you haven't already done so. 15533 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha, Samadhi and Right Concentration Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: ... > All I mean is making it a point to pay attention to what is going > on, > to notice when there is a lapse in that, and particularly, by repeated > attempts to turn this attentiveness into a *habit*. If that is *willing* > something I'm not sure. It is certainly goal-directed bahavior. > ------------------------------------------------------- Sounds pretty much like plain old *willing* to me ;-)). Is there perhaps an underlying assumption that 'making it a point to pay attention to what is going on' is kusala or more likely to be so than not, or even a kind of satipatthana? Satipatthana involves the direct experience of dhammas by consciousness that is accompanied by kusala factors of a very high level. To my understanding, the conditions for such mental states to arise cannot be willed into being, and they do not include 'goal-directed behaviour' (oh that it were so!!). Jon 15534 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > ... My "phenomenalism", > however, is not very detailed - it is just a > general thrust, a perspective. > If I were to adopt some existing fully detailed > phenomenalist theory, it would surely be > incompatible with the Dhamma at some points. > ------------------------------------------------ If your phenomenalism yields to the dhamma whenever there is an inconsistency, then I wonder what value it has for you, or why you think of yourself as a phenomenalist ;-)) (better hope no-one on the exec committee of the Phenomenalist Society had read your post!) What I can relate to, however, is something you have mentioned in earlier posts, namely the affinity you feel for phenomenalism because it was your interest in it that in a sense 'led' you to the dhamma. I think many of us have come to the teachings through unconventional routes that we viewed at the time as an indispensable part of our 'awakening'/'softening up' (in my own case, it was Javanese mysticism). But I would suggest that in fact these experiences were not the causative factors that we think of them as. The true cause must have been previous exposure to and acceptance of the teachings -- if it had not been for deeply ingrained past accumulations, no amount of exposure to dhamma-like concepts would have been sufficient. Seeing things in this light perhaps makes it easier to let go of the 'connection' to other views, which can in fact be a hindrance to progress on the path. My thoughts on it anyway ;-)) Jon 15535 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 1:14am Subject: Sutta reference wanted, please. Dear All "…though with pious heart a disciple took refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, his reward would have been greater if he had, with pious heart, undertaken to keep the precepts: ... "though with pious heart he undertook to keep the precepts, greater still would have been his reward if he had conceived even a passing thought of amity and goodwill." Does anyone know the sutta that this extract comes from? I would be most grateful for a reference (I found this excerpt at http://vmc128.8m.com/greatgifts/, but there is no reference with it). Thanks in advance. Jon 15536 From: egberdina Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 1:43am Subject: Re: Why I would not join in on a study of Vis... Hi Howard, Having been in communication with you for quite some time now, and having discussed a wide range of topics, I believe you to be an assiduous student of reality. I believe your rigour, and unbiased (without fear or favour) attitude, will always yield a deeper understanding of whatever it is that you study. If it comes to be, I would certainly be interested in your appraisals of whatever is put forth as being the "correct" interpretation of the Vis..... (don't know how to spell it) Be well Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > See, I paid attention to whom was replying to this time! ;-) > If I found that could manage to take the time to do the matter > justice yet still get my work done, I believe I *would* participate in such a > study. I would do this for at least the following resons: > 1) Buddhaghosa's work lies at the dead (no innuendo here!) center of > the commentarial tradition of Theravada, and it is (a) the Tipitaka plus (b) > the commentarial tradition plus (c) the practice lineages that *constitute* > Theravada. > 2) As many reservations as I have about certain aspects of Theravada > (in the Abhidhamma, the commentaries, and the practice of some) and as much > of value as I find in parts of Mahayana, I find myself clearly a Theravadin, > and believe, thus, that it is encumbant upon me to come to better understand > this tradition. > 3) I've owned a copy of the Visuddhimagga for years, and have yet to > really get through it. (The best I've done is look at parts of it from time > to time.) I don't like to have significant works just sitting around un-read! > ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard 15537 From: egberdina Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Einstein's Theory of Relativity Hi Rob, I think that's the one. Here's a link. www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/ 08/07/tech/main517850.shtml There's nothing quite like a paradigm shift, is there :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > Are you referring to the theory that the speed of light in the > universe has been decreasing over time? > > I will probably mention this as an aside during the presentation to > shake people up (i.e. current models are still being refined). > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > > > > This is probably only slightly related to your original question, > but > > it may still be of interest. > > > > There is some research in process in Australia which promises to > > demonstrate that the speed of light is not constant, but variable. > > > > All the best > > > > Herman 15538 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nutriment / Rob Ep Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: ... <> The 'definition' I gave was just my own clumsy attempt at expressing what would have been better left to the texts cited by Nina (and copied again below). From the Atthasalini, a more accurate definition would be, 'That which is present in food that preserves beings, keeps them alive'. As mentioned both in the Nyanatiloka extract and by Nina, this rupa can only be experienced through the mind-door. To my understanding, this for all practical purposes means it is unlikely to be experienced by us in a lifetime. However, to answer the main thrust of your post, the fact that a rupa needs a sentence or so to describe its characteristic doesn't mean it is any less a rupa. The rupas that we commonly call simply 'visible object' or 'sound' are in fact more accurately described as 'the phenomena experienced through the eye- or ear-door'. Jon http://www.zolag.co.uk/rupas.txt Nutrition is another kind of rúpa which has to arise with every kind of materiality. It can be exerienced only through the mind-door. The "Dhammasangaùi" (§ 646) mentions food such as boiled rice, sour gruel, flour, etc., which can be eaten and digested into the "juice" by which living beings are kept alive. The "Atthasåliní" (II, Book II, Ch III, 330) explains that there is foodstuff, the substance which is swallowed (kabaîinkåro åhåro, literally, morsel-made food), and the "nutritive essence"(ojå). The foodstuff which is swallowed fills the stomach so that one does not grow hungry. The nutritive essence present in food preserves beings, keeps them alive. The nutritive essence in gross foodstuff is weak, and in subtle foodstuff it is strong. After eating coarse grain one becomes hungry after a brief interval. But when one has taken ghee (butter) one does not want to eat for a long time (Atthasåliní, 331). 15539 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nutriment Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > Thank you for the following information. I must say, though - > this > business strikes me as 1) a mixing of actuality and concept, and 2) > pseudo-scientific from the modern perspective. > > With metta, > Howard As to your (1), I think we probably tend to equate 'rupas' with 'sense-door object'. However, this is not really so. While all objects that are experienced through the 5 sense-doors are indeed rupas, the reverse is not true. Only 7 of the 28 rupas are directly experienced through a sense-door. The remaining 21, nutrition among them, can be experienced only through the mind-door. However, this does not make it any more a concept and any less a rupa As to your (2), again I think we tend to associate rupas with their scientific counterparts bearing the same name/label. However, the 2 are not the same. The rupa that is sound, for example, is incapable of detection by scientific instruments. Jon 15540 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] The purpose of samatha / Rob Ep Rob Ep Just to supplement the answers I gave in an earlier post (that you apparently only got around to reading after you wrote this -- and which you say largely answers your questions) --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, <> To be a little more precise, what I said (or should have said) is that samatha and vipassana are 2 quite different aspects of kusala, and must be understood separately. The prior development of samatha to a particular stage or level is not a prerequisite for the development of satipatthana/vipassana at this present moment. And conversely, a person's level of samatha development tells us nothing about their level of understanding of dhammas, or their potential for such. <> It is an appropriate form of kusala for development by someone leading the homeless life to its fullest purity. I think if you look carefully at the texts you will find that in many suttas where samatha is being discussed, the real focus of the teaching is on how, for a monk in whom samatha is already highly developed or who has the potential for such, samatha can form the basis for enlightenment (the 'both ways' enlightenment). <> No, not inconsequential, since all kusala supports the development of vipassana; it's just that it's not an absolute prerequisite, if we are talking about the separate development of (mundane) samatha. Not to be confused with the samadhi that arises together with each moment of satipatthana, that is also developed together with the other (path) factors arising at those moments and that culminates in samma-samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path at the moment of supramundane path consciousness (= magga citta, = enlightenment). Jon 15541 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kalapas According to Nyanatiloka Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As external, mind-independent entities, rupas are mere concept, Jon! They are only hypothesized, not observed. The hair, from the Abhidhammic perspective, is mere pa~n~natti. So, WHERE are these "external", mind-independent rupas? (They don't exist in the hair or as part of the hair, since the hair is mere pa~n~natti.) If one adopts neither a realist (objectivist) standpoint nor a phenomenalist one, I don't see how to answer such a question. [For a realist, the hair is real and out there, with the so-called rupas being mere characteristics of that hair or physical parts of it. For the Buddhist phenomenalist, the rupas are internal - the objective aspects/poles of moments of experience, and the hair is conceptually constructed from these rupas.] ------------------------------------------------------------- You say, "As external, mind-independent entities, rupas are mere concept". Well, rupas are never concept, that is the whole point. But I think what you are pointing out is that when we hypothesise about rupas we are in the realm of concepts (because of the hypothesising). No argument from me there. Yes, hair is mere pannatti, no argument there either ;-)). However, the rupas that we take for 'hair' are not concepts. So when [what we take for] 'hair' is touched, what is actually happening is that consciousness arising at the body-door experiences the rupa that is hardness/softness, and that is followed by many mind-door moments that experience and then think about that object. The question we are now considering is whether, at times when there is no such touching, the hardness/softness that if touched would be taken as hair still arises. I agree that this is hypothesising about dhammas (you raised it, though, not me ;-))), and that is why I have not attempted to express any thoughts of my own on the matter. However, I do think that the texts disclose a clear position on this question. The fact that we cannot say *where* that hardness would be arising is really beside the point, imv. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do see experience as consisting of single events - discernings of objects. The discernment operation (vi~n~nana) and its object co-occur, arise together, and are mutually dependent. This is the mutual dependence of vi~n~nana and namarupa, likened to two mutually supporting sheaves. Whether or not there exist rupas that are more than mere potentialities for being objects of discernent, that are self-existing, independent things is unknowable - for only what is observable is truly knowable. ----------------------------------------------------- Yes, I agree that "Whether or not there exist rupas that ... are self-existing, independent things" is unknowable to us (and that's why it puzzles me that you would so persistently assert an answer based on your own experience and/or conjecture!). Nevertheless, the Abhidhamma position on it seems clear enough. Jon 15542 From: egberdina Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 3:40am Subject: Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Erik, > But you would be taking this the wrong way if you think this means I am saying don't go off to quiet places. > > Robert Sorry to be only referring to a snippet of your original post. I did appreciate the whole contribution, but I wished to express my gratitude that this last line was included. The suttas can make tedious reading for the uninitiated, because they can seem repetititve while applying the same teaching to many different categories of circumstance. But in so doing, they are a complete statement. I think by adding your last line, as quoted above, you have made a complete statement, and thereby have made it much more valuable than just listing the particular point(s) you may have been trying to emphasise. There is an ongoing to and fro at DSG about formal meditation versus no formal meditation. I meditated formally and regularly for at least ten years, before I had the slightest inkling that the object of the meditation was me. (self). This awakening did not render the last ten years useless. It is not possible for me to prove that the meditation led to the realisation. Or that it didn't. But this I know. I never went into meditation with some sort of preconceived idea of what the result should be. Newton's laws apply to the mind as well (IMHO) To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If one meditates with craving, aversion is sure to follow. I am glad that you have shared that you seek out silence from time to time. Nobody can read the suttas and think that The One Who Knows did any differently. All the best Herman 15543 From: egberdina Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 4:53am Subject: Re: Why I would not join in on a study of Vis... Hi Christine, The link you posted was interesting. Knowing full well that there is no such thing as value-free research, I wondered why you posted the link, as it seemed to prove my point :-). Despite what John Lennon has said about the matter, many believe the opposite. This is also clearly stated in the site you referenced. Have guilty men ever protested their innocence till the moment they were hung? All the best Herman PS I have no special attachment to my line of argument. I am simply suggesting that the determination of what anybody means by saying "X" is subjective to the nth degree (n being a pretty big number - font size not implied here:-)). And that the likelyhood of arriving at flawed determinations increases exponentially as one is removed from the original source by time and cultural context . Clearly, many believe that Buddhaghosa gave a word for word exposition of what the Buddha really meant. So be it. It is of note to me that Buddhaghosa wrote the exposition at all. Clearly there were matters that were not understood. One does not shine a torch in broad daylight. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > ------------------------------------- > You said: "Take the Beatles lyrics. We who live in the same lifetime > as the > Beatles are unable to resolve whether "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" > is a song about an LSD episode or a crayon drawing made by a little > girl in kindergarten. Going back to the authors does not resolve the > question. There are entrenched views, and that is that." > ------------------------------------- > Is that really so? It seems it is easily resolvable by checking the > consistent statements of the author and of those reliable ones who > knew him - it seems that there is verifiable evidence as to the > real inspiration for the song. > > "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" > http://www.snopes.com/music/hidden/lucysky.htm > "Looking back at this matter nowadays, however, there is little > question but that John's explanation was an accurate and honest one. > He did not merely claim that the title was a coincidental invention > of his own but offered a specific, external explanation of its > origins; he provided this explanation at the time the song was > released; he maintained the same explanation for the rest of his > life; and his explanation is corroborated by others." > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Recently Vicki and I went to see "I am Sam". The main character, > > amongst the twists and turns of the plot, explains his life in > terms > > of the lyrics of Beatles songs and anecdotes about their life. > > 15544 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha, Samadhi and Right Concentration Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/8/02 3:43:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > ... > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > ... > > All I mean is making it a point to pay attention to what is going > > on, > > to notice when there is a lapse in that, and particularly, by repeated > > attempts to turn this attentiveness into a *habit*. If that is *willing* > > something I'm not sure. It is certainly goal-directed bahavior. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Sounds pretty much like plain old *willing* to me ;-)). > > Is there perhaps an underlying assumption that 'making it a point to pay > attention to what is going on' is kusala or more likely to be so than not, > or even a kind of satipatthana? Satipatthana involves the direct > experience of dhammas by consciousness that is accompanied by kusala > factors of a very high level. To my understanding, the conditions for > such mental states to arise cannot be willed into being, and they do not > include 'goal-directed behaviour' (oh that it were so!!). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh. Well, good, Jon - so there's nothing I need to do. What will be, will be. That's good. It certainly makes my life easier - less complicated. If I sleepwalk through my days and exert no effort to do otherwise, that's unfortuanate, but just my accumulations. If "the direct experience of dhammas " should happen, that will be nice, and, if not, well - c'est la vie. Nothing to do. Nothing to cultivate. I apologize for the irony, Jon, but this is how I evaluate what you are saying. There is nothing for us to do, no actions that we should or can take. What is it, then, to be a practicing Buddhist? If, to put into practice the teachings of the Buddha does not require *doing* something, exercising of will, then everyone is a Buddhist practitioner. I'm sorry, but this no-exercise-of-volition position just escapes me. (I'm speaking conventionally here, Jon. I know that there is no "us" to be doing anything. I know there is no "you" and no "me" - but still I write to you! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Jon > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15545 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas out there Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/8/02 3:56:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > ... > > ------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > ... My "phenomenalism", > > however, is not very detailed - it is just a > > general thrust, a perspective. > > If I were to adopt some existing fully detailed > > phenomenalist theory, it would surely be > > incompatible with the Dhamma at some points. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > If your phenomenalism yields to the dhamma whenever there is an > inconsistency, then I wonder what value it has for you, or why you think > of yourself as a phenomenalist ;-)) (better hope no-one on the exec > committee of the Phenomenalist Society had read your post!) > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, as I've said before, phenomenalism makes sense to me and it also provides a perspective which supports my understanding of the Dhamma. However, I don't think of myself as a "phenomenalist". In fact, I don't even truly *characterize* my self as a "Buddhist". If I pidgeonhole myself into any of a variety of categories, I am clinging to an identity. I would rather let go of any identity. I would rather be free. Yes, I used the word 'rather', which means I have expressed a preference. One starts where one is. I still have preferences. ;-)) --------------------------------------------------------- > > What I can relate to, however, is something you have mentioned in earlier > posts, namely the affinity you feel for phenomenalism because it was your > interest in it that in a sense 'led' you to the dhamma. I think many of > us have come to the teachings through unconventional routes that we viewed > at the time as an indispensable part of our 'awakening'/'softening up' (in > my own case, it was Javanese mysticism). But I would suggest that in fact > these experiences were not the causative factors that we think of them as. > The true cause must have been previous exposure to and acceptance of the > teachings -- if it had not been for deeply ingrained past accumulations, > no amount of exposure to dhamma-like concepts would have been sufficient. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, previous exposure, and - who knows? - maybe even previous *practice*! ------------------------------------------------- > > Seeing things in this light perhaps makes it easier to let go of the > 'connection' to other views, which can in fact be a hindrance to progress > on the path. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't feel the need for a purity of Buddhist view, Jon. In any case, when I read the Kalakarama Sutta and the Bahiya Sutta I see a phenomenalist understanding expressed. That is how I understand the Dhamma. Many others do as well. Many do not. It is certainly not encumbant on anyone to see it that way - nor is it verboten. ------------------------------------------------------ > > My thoughts on it anyway ;-)) > > Jon > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15546 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why I would not join in on a study of Vis... Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/8/02 4:44:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Having been in communication with you for quite some time now, and > having discussed a wide range of topics, I believe you to be an > assiduous student of reality. I believe your rigour, and unbiased > (without fear or favour) attitude, will always yield a deeper > understanding of whatever it is that you study. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Wow. I find myself a bit embarrassed. In any case, I thank you for the kind words. I particularly appreciate them coming from you, as I admire your honesty and intelligence. ------------------------------------------------------ > > If it comes to be, I would certainly be interested in your appraisals > of whatever is put forth as being the "correct" interpretation of the > Vis..... (don't know how to spell it) > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I don't attach all that much certainty to my own appraisals. It's just that, ultimately, it is my own appraisal (based on the input of others, on my own interior experience, and on my reasoning) that I have to depend on. I think that is the way it is for each of us. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Be well > > > Herman ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15547 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mind-process Dear Rob M and Jon, I would like to expand somewhat on the process of cittas. I wrote before on this, but now more on the Path of Discrimination, Treatise on Knowledge,Ch XVII, Behaviour, Cariyaa, under behaviour of consciousness. Cittas are classified as dhatus, elements, see below, Nyanatiloka. Here they are explained as directing onto the object, but we have to keep in mind that such moments are extremely fast. We see here the name of adverting, but we do not see the names of receiving and investigating, they are just two more moments of vipaka after seeing, they just experience visible object and then they are gone immediately. Then we read about the other sense-door processes and then about , kiriyacitta which is mind-door adverting citta, and also resultant mind-principle . This is vipakacitta in the mind-door process, later on named tadarammana-citta. Now about the javanas, named here as such: What is behaviour of unknowing (a~naa.na caariya): The same of hate, delusion and other akusala cetasikas. And also with regard to the other sense objects and mental object. It is interesting that here is stressed akusala as behaviour of ignorance. And about behaviour of knowledge, panna, functional indeterminate adverting for the purpose of contemplating impermanence, the contemplation of impermanence is a behaviour of knowledge. Here are the stages of insight mentioned, up to the stages of enlightenment. You see, the nucleus of the process is there. It does not matter that names are different, they have their own place in the order of the process, which is citta niyama: certainty, definiteness. It is like a natural law. It could not be altered, it is amazing when we come to think of it. How do cittas know? They cannot do otherwise but follow this way, viithi. The Path of Discrimination is Part of the Khuddaka Nikaya, thus of the Suttanta. As to the Abhidhamma, the first Book, Dhs, enumerates cittas arising in different processes. The Vibhanga, the Book of Analysis, under Analysis of Elements, refers to the processes. So does the Patthana, Conditional Relations, under: contiguity-condtion, anantara paccaya. As to the Commentaries, Buddhagosa did not give his own ideas, his explanations were firmly based on the Tipitaka. Hoping that this clarifies, best wishes, Nina. op 06-09-2002 15:16 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > --- robmoult wrote: > ... >> I would appreciate any links to detailed analysis of the thought >> process. I find the Abhidhammathasangha to be quite light in this >> area. Which of the original seven volumes did the thought process >> appear in? I know it wasn't the first as I have a copy. > -)> Jon: Below is what Nyanatiloka says on the origins of the details on the mind > process. Hope this is of interest. > > citta-víthi, > (as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes of > conseiousness, such as ávajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santírana, > votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, cuti): > None of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. > Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or > thrice briefly mentioned. > The stages, however, must have been more or less known. Cf. e.g Patth: > ''Cakkhu-viññánam tam sampayuttaká ca dhammá (= cetasiká) mano-dhátuyá > (performing the sampaticchana-function), tam sampayuttakánañ ca dhammánam > (cetasikánani) anantara-paccayena paccayo. Mano-dhátu ... > manoviññána-dhátuya (performing the santírana and votthapana function).... > Purimá purimá kusalá dhammá (javaná) pacchimánam pacchimánam kusalánam > dhammánam (javanacittánam) anantara-paccayena paccayo... avyákatánam > dhammánam (tadárammana- and bhavanga-cittánam....)." > > > 15548 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kind speech and self-exmination Dear Sarah, I liked very much your observations about trouble caused by rupas, the example of the lost wallet when Jon got out of the taxi. Then the examples from the abhidhamma, Dhsg. Another illustration that the Abhidhamma is not theoretical :-) A. Sujin in her book on Metta is also expanding on this passage. Now I cannot resist quoting from A. Sujin's Perfections on Energy, about self-examination, the Anumana Sutta: This reminded me to examine myself before going to sleep. I had neglected this. I realized the countless, countless moments of forgetfulness. But I know that they are conditioned. The passes on like a movie picture, stronger moments of akusala stand out, but there are so many moments of ignorance, unnoticed, forgotten already. Many moments of slight bodily pain when knocking a hand or touching the hot lamp, and then aversion. But no awareness. Sarah, you said that you, before going to sleep, think of kusala you can perform the next day. An excellent advice. Could you elaborate more on this? If others can write about their experience of self-examination, it will be very inspiring, I am sure. With much appreciation, Nina. op 06-09-2002 09:29 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: . Often we are troubled on account of what has been seen, heard > and so on. We are lost in stories and forget about the real cause of the > troubles, i.e. the kilesa arising on account of these sense door > experiences. > >> From the same section of Dhammasangani, 1341, we read: > > “What is patience? > That patience which is long-suffering, compliance, absence of rudeness and > abruptness, complacency of heart (khanti). > What is loveableness? (soracca.m) > That which is the absence of excess in deed, in word, and in deed and word > together. > Besides, all moral self-restraint is lovely. > What is amity ?(saakhalya.m) > When all such speech as is insolent (a.n.dakaa), disagreeable (asaataa), > scabrous (kakkasaa), harsh to others, vituperative (paraabhisajjanii) to > others, bordering upon anger, not conducive to concentration, is put away, > and when all such speech as is innocuous (niddosaa), pleasant to the ear, > affectionate, such as goes to the heart, is urbane (porii), sweet and > acceptable to people generally - when speech of this sort is spoken - > polished, friendly and gentle language - this is what is called amity. > What is courtesy? > The two forms of courtesy: hospitality towards bodily needs and > considerateness in matters of doctrine. When anyone shows courtesy it is > in one of these two forms.” > 15549 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 7:19am Subject: Perfections, Ch 5, Wisdom, no 6 Perfections, Ch 5, no. 6 Paññå is illumination which is nåma dhamma, it is understanding which penetrates the characteristics of realities which were never before penetrated. Formerly someone may have heard about them and understood in theory about them, but he may not yet have directly realized them. Paññå can grow and it can become illumination. As we read, even when we sit in one place, the ten thousand world-spheres can appear as of one light. This means that paññå understands thoroughly and penetrates the characteristic of nåma dhamma when nåma dhamma appears. Nåma dhamma arises in the planes of the five khandhas, in the heavenly planes, in the rúpa-brahma planes, in the arúpa-brahma planes 7) , or in whatever world of the countless worldsystems, but it has only one characteristic: nåma dhamma is only the reality which experiences, the element, dhåtu, which experiences an object. When paññå penetrates the characteristics of realities, ten thousand worldsystems appear as of one light, which means that paññå clearly understands the characteristics of realities, no matter where they arise. We read further on: A man introduces an oil-lamp into a dark house; the lamp so introduced disperses the darkness, produces light, sheds lustre, makes objects visible, so, understanding as it arises dispels the darkness of ignorance, produces the light of wisdom, sheds the lustre of knowledge, makes plain the four noble Truths. Thus understanding has illuminating as its characteristic. While we are listening to the Dhamma at this moment, we are developing the perfection of paññå together with the perfections of energy and patience, so that in the future paññå that is illumination, that clearly understands realities, will arise. We read further on: And as a clever surgeon knows which food is suitable, and which is not, evenso is understanding... Here we see that paññå should be developed in daily life so that it thoroughly knows and penetrates the characteristics of realities. We read: Evenso, understanding as it arises knows states as kusala or akusala, serviceable or unserviceable, low or exalted, black or pure, similar or dissimilar. And this was said by the ³General of the Dhamma² (Såriputta): ³It knows; thus, monk, it is in consequence called understanding. And what does it know? This is dukkha, etc. Thus it should be expanded. And thus knowing should be regarded as the characteristic of understanding. Here is another view: Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature, unfaltering penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function, as it were a lamp; non-perplexity as its proximate cause, as it were a good guide in the forest. This is the characteristic of paññå which knows everything as it really is. When satipatthåna does not arise, we spend our day with ignorance: we do not know which kind of akusala citta arises, what degree of lobha accompanies akusala citta, and we cannot clearly distinguish between attachment arising through the eyes, the ears or the mind-door. The whole day we are ignorant of the truth of realities. When paññå arises, it knows precisely which dhammas are kusala and which are akusala. There is no need to ask someone else whether it is kusala or akusala that arises, because paññå is able to understand this. Paññå knows which dhammas are beneficial and which are not. When akusala citta arises paññå clearly understands it; it knows the danger of akusala and it knows that akusala should not increase. When kusala citta arises paññå clearly understands it and it knows the benefit of kusala. Footnote 7. Birth in the rúpa-brahma planes is the result of rúpa jhåna, and birth in the arúpa-brahma planes is the result of arúpa jhåna. 15550 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 7:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phenomen-alism/ology + Plato Hi Stephen and Rob, Berkeley is also a good place to look for western parallels. I like him better than modern phenomenalists because his relinquishment is more profound. Substitute kamma for God and you have Buddhism, almost. Larry 15551 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 9:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Jon: "This doesn't seem to me like the language of formal meditation practice. Do you see anything here, or elsewhere in the sutta, that points to a formal meditation practice?" Hi Jon, it all looks formal to me. I suspect what you are objecting to is giving up ordinary activities (objectives) and confining yourself to these activities. If not, and you can carry out these activities in a sustained way throughout daily life, then Bravo! you are an accomplished master. Larry 15552 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati, part 5 Hi Larry, yes, this is used for sanna, the khandha of sanna. Nina. op 08-09-2002 05:40 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus > is the disappearance of perception." >I was wondering what is used as object for mindfulness of perception. I thought possibly memory. 15553 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta reference to Jon Dear Jon, Gradual Sayings, book of the Nines, Ch II, § 10, Velama. It continues: ...had he made become, just for a fingersnap, the perception of impermanence. Nina. op 08-09-2002 10:14 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > "…though with pious heart a disciple took refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma > and the Sangha, his reward would have been greater if he had, with pious > heart, undertaken to keep the precepts: ... > "though with pious heart he undertook to keep the precepts, greater still > would have been his reward if he had conceived even a passing thought of > amity and goodwill." >> > 15554 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 2:06pm Subject: Fwd: Would learning Pali really help? Dear Group, I initially posted this message elsewhere but would be very interested to hear any thoughts anyone here may have. metta, Christine Subject: Fwd: Would learning Pali really help? > --- In Triplegem@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Recently on a number of lists, members have had differences about the > Buddha's teaching based on translations of the Tipitaka. It occurs > to me that 21st century Buddhists are at the mercy of the vigilance, > ethics, and competence of translators and of the translators > interests and biases (unconscious or otherwise). The Internet is > both a wonderful and a terrible tool. It presents information to > thousands who would never buy the books. When reading from the > internet, the majority of Buddhists have no ability to > discern 'truth' from 'almost truth' or 'error' in translations. They > can be 'blinded with science' - post up a few 'cut and pasted' > paragraphs in Pali, tell them the meaning, and hardly a one would be > able to confirm or deny this meaning. I certainly wouldn't. (And > this is even before being influenced by the colloquial usage of > words in different countries speaking the same modern language.) > Below there are two different translations of absolutely non- > controversial verses of The Chapter of Ones (Anguttara Nikaya) which > show the ordinary differences in a translation: > ------------------------------------------ > Numerical Discourses of the Buddha 'An Anthology of Suttas from the > Anguttara Nikaya'. Translated and edited by Nyanaponika Thera & > Bhikkhu Bodhi. The Chapter of Ones 2. > > "No other thing do I know, O monks, on account of which unarisen > sensual desire arises and arisen sensual desire increases and becomes > strong so much as on account of this: a beautiful object. For one > who attends improperly to a beautiful object, unarisen sensual desire > arises and arisen sensual desire increases and becomes strong." > --------------------------------------------- > Translated from The Anguttara-Nikaya Ekanipata from the combined text > of the Pali Text Society > Edited by The Rev. Richard Morris, M.A., LL.D, Second Edition > and the Vipassana Research Institute edition > (the verse in Pali can be viewed on this site also.) > > "I see no other single Thing of more power to cause the appearance of > Wanting if not Present in the Here and Now, or, if Present in the > Here and Now, to cause it's growth and increase as The Beautiful > Feature (SUBHA-NIMITTAM, The Mark, or Sign of Beauty) in a thing. > The Mark of Beauty, Beggars, if not traced back to its origins > (YONISO MANASIKARO traced back in the mind to it's origins, or womb), > causes the appearance of Wanting if not Present in the Here and Now, > or, if Present in the Here and Now, it's growth and increase." > http://www.buddhadust.org/TheOnes/theonesenglish1-97.htm > ----------------------------------------------- > The first translation seems more elegant. Personally, I prefer the > second translation as it is clearer to me and uses more everyday > language - but I have no idea which is 'more correct'. The first > doesn't mention Here and Now (which is important to my understanding > of what the Buddha taught), nor does it instruct (or urge, rouse, or > encourage:)) us to trace back the Mark of Beauty to its origins. > > Would learning Pali really help? > > metta, > Christine > --- End forwarded message --- 15555 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 2:14pm Subject: Re: Searching for 'Courage' in the Teachings --- Dear Christine, In the cullavamsa - smaller chronicle on the history of sri lanka- there was a king who was overthrown by an evil minister (or someoone - I forget some details). This usurper wanted the King to suffer greatly and so had him put into a new wall while still alive and had the his men slowly seal up the wall so that he would suffocate. the king thought to himself: this one has destroyed my present life and now wants to ruin my future ones (because he wanted the king to be fearful and angry). But the king reflected wisely and showed no agitation as he was entombed. One of the greatest things I have learnt in Dhamma is that nothing and no one can ever make us have akusala because it is conditioned within this stream of nama and rupa. Akusala -such as fear- can't be stopped by 'us' (because no 'us');but knowing that in any situation kusala can still arise is a powerful condition for viriya (energy) and saddha (faith) that supports kusala. The understanding of anatta is a very strong condition for courage because it means there is proportionally(to the degree of understanding) less clinging to 'self' who needs to be protected etc. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have been thinking a lot recently around the subject of Courage. > I couldn't find much on 'courage' in the scriptures - though there > 15556 From: onco111 Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 3:03pm Subject: DSG: Live in Niagara Our trip: We left Ithaca at about 1:00 to make the drive to Niagara to meet KS and company. After grabbing a sandwich from a Deli, dealing with the international women's problem, and a couple of wrong turns, Lisa and I made it to Niagara Falls by 5:00, an hour later than we expected. We needed to leave again at 7:00, so the meeting was to be short. We found Jim and Amara waiting patiently in the lobby of the hotel. After exchanging pleasantries for a minute or so, Amara called KS over. She had been engaged in a Thai discussion with a dozen or so folks from the group, but she came right over to meet Lisa and me. Amara got the discussion started by mentioning that she told KS that I sometimes talked about Dhamma with my children. I began to talk a little about my kids and Dhamma. KS listened politely, but I don't think ANYONE really likes to hear parents talk about their kids. She leaned way forward to listen, and when she spoke, it was in a quiet voice, almost a whisper. Afterwards, Lisa said she was glad she had been sitting between KS and me because otherwise she would not have been able to hear anything. Jim was sitting on the far side of a coffee table and must not have heard much of anything at all. Amara sat next to KS. Clearly, Amara could hear because she would occasionally make comments. Kom came at about 6:00 and sat a few feet away from Amara, and I don't suppose he heard very much. Beyond prompting KS to talk, I said little in the two hours, preferring instead to listen to her. The long trip for such a short discussion was well worth it, but we didn't really get to know Jim, Kom, and Amara much beyond seeing their faces and hearing their voices. Jim lives not far from here (6 or so hours' drive), so we hope to visit him sometime before we leave this part of the country. I'm sure we'll meet Kom and Amara again sometime, and I look forward to those days. The first taste of dsg Live was precious, and I hope to elaborate in a short series of posts to come. Dan 15557 From: onco111 Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 3:04pm Subject: Episode I: Swimming pool Maras Episode I: Amara introduces me and mentions that I sometimes talk Dhamma with my kids (well, with the older one anyway -- he's 6). I VERY briefly tell KS and Amara about a couple of chats with Matt. Here's a longer version of the "swimming pool Maras" (from an e-mail I sent to Sarah earlier this summer). It's a story about my son's first few days of swimming lessons this summer. Monday: Matt barely touches the water -- he dips in, up to his waist and immediately pops out. He stands on the side of the pool with a terrified look for the next 40 minutes. We talk about how to defeat a Mara disguised as a swimming pool. Tuesday: An enthusiastic Matt climbs into the water. With chattering teeth, he clings tightly to the ladder the whole time, shaking his head furiously whenever the teacher says anything to him. Afterwards, we talk about defeating two Maras the next day: The one disguised as a ladder, and the one disguised as a bar-bell (looks like a giant plastic Q-tip that kids cling to to keep from sinking). The Q-tip Mara says, "Oh, that water is so deep. You won't be able to touch the bottom. Be very scared! Kids can drown so easy." The ladder Mara is in cahoots with the Q-tip Mara: "That's right. You don't want to drown. Cling to me, and I'll keep you nice and safe." The way to defeat both Maras in one swift stroke is to ride the Q-tip Mara. There is no way he can stand up to that attack. Wednesday: A confident Matt steps into the pool, drapes his arms over the Q-tip Mara, and paddles around a little. Afterwards, he is ecstatic. He tells his friend: "In swimming lessons, I not only got into the water, I got on a bar-bell." He tells his Mom: "Swimming lessons were great. I even put my face under the water." He tells his Dad: "Tomorrow, I'm going to put my whole head under the water." Thursday: We shall see. We shall see. The water Mara is very strong and fights hard to prevent you from putting your whole head under. You can defeat him fairly easily, though, if you know his tricks and understand that the fear is just his poison, not You. [By the time the week was over, Matt was loving the swimming lessons, and the teachers were ecstatic about his progress. With huge grins, they gave high-fives to each other when they mentioned Matt.] I mention to KS that Matt usually is very receptive to hearing about Dhamma, but sometimes he covers his ears and screams to get away from the talk. KS tells me to tell him that no matter what he does, he can't escape Dhamma. This, I will do. Dan 15558 From: onco111 Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 3:05pm Subject: Episode II: Vedana Episode II: My first question Dan: What is vedana? KS: Feeling. [I've heard vedana glossed that way before. I've also heard it glossed as "sensation." If it is "sensation", what would be the vedana in a moment of seeing? The light-induced stimulation of the retina sending an electrical signal via the optic nerve to brain and the consequent sensation "light"? Or is it some bodily impression accompanying the stimulation of the retina? Mr. Goenka explains, "...every dhamma, anything that arises on the mind -- even a slight thought -- starts flowing with a sensation on the body: vedanaa samosaranaa sabbe dhammaa....Therefore, so far as this tradition is concerned, the sensation on the body cannot be missed....Every moment there must be awareness of sensation arising and passing." This poses great difficulty if a moment of seeing is distinct from a moment of feeling, which certainly seems to be the case. How could there be awareness of body sensation at a moment of seeing (or hearing or thinking) if they are distinct? Impossible! Do "seeing" and "body sensation" coarise?] [Having studied with Goenka and his students for a decade or so, these questions kept popping into my mind. To clear up some of that confusion, I continued.] Dan: In a moment of seeing, what is the vedana? KS: In this moment, is it pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral? Dan: Uh, ummm... KS: It is neutral. [Lightbulbs flashing in Dan's mind...] Amara: Was the long drive up here worth it? Dan: It certainly was. I think back to how KS's explanation fits so well with Bhikkhu Bodhi's definition of 'vedana' as: "the affective tone of experience - - pleasure, pain, or neutral feeling -- which occurs on every occasion of experience through any of the six sense faculties." Issue resolved. Dan 15559 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 3:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mind-process Hi Nina, Most of the descriptions of Cetasikas in my Class Notes are extracted from your "Cetasikas" book. Once again, you have provided excellent source material for my efforts with this posting. Nina, your writings have had a great influence on me, helping me with my understanding of the Dhamma. The clarity of your writings have helped me be more effective in applying the Dhamma in my own life and passing along the message of the Dhamma to others. Nina, your influence on those with whom you have interacted directly (personally or through your writings) is significant. In turn, those with whom you have interacted directly have influenced others and therefore there is a much larger audience of those with whom you have interacted "indirectly". I picture this as concentric ripples in a pond, the influence ever spreading but the focus remaining the same. Of course, the size and power of the "ripples" in the pond depends on the size and weight of the initiating object. In this case, the "ripples" are large and powerful because the initiating object is based on the Dhamma. This legacy will continue long after the nama-rupa named "Nina" is gone. Saddhu, Saddhu, Saddhu. Thanks, Rob M :-) 15560 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Episode I: Swimming pool Maras Hi, Dan - Your relating of your visit with KS et al is vert interesting. Thanks. I'll make on ebrief comment. In a message dated 9/8/02 6:04:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhd5@c... writesabout his six-year old : > I mention to KS that Matt usually is very receptive to hearing about > Dhamma, but sometimes he covers his ears and screams to get away from > the talk. ========================== My wife often reacts in exactly the same manner! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15561 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 0:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Episode II: Vedana Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/8/02 6:06:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhd5@c... writes: > > Episode II: My first question > > Dan: What is vedana? > KS: Feeling. > > [I've heard vedana glossed that way before. I've also heard it > glossed as "sensation." If it is "sensation", what would be the > vedana in a moment of seeing? The light-induced stimulation of the > retina sending an electrical signal via the optic nerve to brain and > the consequent sensation "light"? Or is it some bodily impression > accompanying the stimulation of the retina? Mr. Goenka > explains, "...every dhamma, anything that arises on the mind -- even > a slight thought -- starts flowing with a sensation on the body: > vedanaa samosaranaa sabbe dhammaa....Therefore, so far as this > tradition is concerned, the sensation on the body cannot be > missed....Every moment there must be awareness of sensation arising > and passing." This poses great difficulty if a moment of seeing is > distinct from a moment of feeling, which certainly seems to be the > case. How could there be awareness of body sensation at a moment of > seeing (or hearing or thinking) if they are distinct? Impossible! > Do "seeing" and "body sensation" coarise?] > > [Having studied with Goenka and his students for a decade or so, > these questions kept popping into my mind. To clear up some of that > confusion, I continued.] > > Dan: In a moment of seeing, what is the vedana? > KS: In this moment, is it pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral? > Dan: Uh, ummm... > KS: It is neutral. > > [Lightbulbs flashing in Dan's mind...] > > Amara: Was the long drive up here worth it? > Dan: It certainly was. > > I think back to how KS's explanation fits so well with Bhikkhu > Bodhi's definition of 'vedana' as: "the affective tone of experience - > - pleasure, pain, or neutral feeling -- which occurs on every > occasion of experience through any of the six sense faculties." Issue > resolved. > > Dan > ============================== I've had the same issues with vedana, also because of Mr Goenka's formulation. It was either Sarah or Nina (I'm sorry, ladies - I forget which of you) who cleared it up for me. Vedana is, indeed, a feeling of pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality conditioned by some bodily sensation (rupa) or by a thought or memory (nama). So a pain, for example, is a feeling of unpleasantness conditioned by a bodily sensation such as a throbbing or pressure or sharpness etc. The throbbing or pressure or sharpness etc is rupa, and the feeling of unpleasantness conditioned by it is the pain vedana. And neither of these is the aversion - the aversive reaction is sankhara. This is how I now understand the matter. I may still be off in some way on this, and I stand to be corrected. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15562 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Episode I: Swimming pool Maras Hi, Dan and all - In a message dated 9/8/02 7:24:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Your relating of your visit with KS et al is vert interesting. Thanks. > I'll make on ebrief comment. > ============================= The preceding gibberish should read: "Your relating of your visit with KS is very interesting. Thanks. I'll make one brief comment." With mush-mouthed metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15563 From: frank kuan Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Episode II: Vedana > I think back to how KS's explanation fits so well > with Bhikkhu > Bodhi's definition of 'vedana' as: "the affective > tone of experience - > - pleasure, pain, or neutral feeling -- which occurs > on every > occasion of experience through any of the six sense > faculties." Issue > resolved. Exactly. How we react to feeling each moment - with pleasure, aversion, ignorance, or understanding the nature of feeling is what's important. Right there is our dukkhometer measuring the quality of happiness we experience right now. Knowing whether cheetahs move at the speed of light or whether they arise concurrently with lobsters and other atomic realities doesn't really matter. -fk 15564 From: onco111 Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 6:08pm Subject: Episode III: Samma this, samma that; miccha this, miccha that Episode III: Samma this, samma that; miccha this, miccha that Dan [full version of the Dhs. quote not given in the conversation]: In Dhammasangani, I read that "right effort" is "...mental endeavor, riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, having sustained desire to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, endeavor as the faculty of endeavor, power of endeavor, right effort." By contrast, I read that "wrong effort" is "...mental endeavor, riddance olathargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, having sustained desire to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, endeavor as the faculty of endeavor, power of endeavor, wrong effort." KS [without even hearing the question first]: Effort is effort. Whether it is wrong effort or right effort depends on the other cetasikas. [And Dan delighted in the words.] [I brought up an interview I heard on the radio. A man was given a shotgun as a gift after never having owned any gun before. He'd always thought it strange that people hunted and enjoyed killing animals. But then, he practiced with his gun and learned. He talked of how calm and focussed the mind had to be and how sharp the concentration, in order to properly aim the gun at an animal, pull the trigger, and hit the target. Even the miccha-est of miccha samadhi can feel very calm and clean and pure. The fruits of concentration are alluring, and attachment to miccha samadhi grows and grows. KS seemed to have little comment on my stories. I'm glad -- a reminder to me that I came to hear her, not to talk her ear off. Better to turn on her voice again with questions about Dhamma.] Dan 15565 From: onco111 Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 6:09pm Subject: Episode IV: Lobha Episode IV: Lobha KS: Which do you want more, lobha or pañña? Dan: Lobha! KS+Amara: [laughter]. KS: Lobha is a very effective teacher. It's so easy to follow. 15566 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "doing" something in Buddhism Hello, Howard, Hope all is well and that the new school year is going smoothely for you. Usually am silent, but thought I'd write this time. "We" all like to think there must be a "will" do carry on some sort of practice, but when "we" think so, it is merely a "self" doing the thinking. Included in Right Understanding then, is first, the intellectual understanding that there is no self that can will "us" to carry out any action, be it getting up in the morning, etc. Owing to conditions, cittas and cetasikas arise, which condition thoughts at the mind door, which condtion action: getting up in the morning, brushing the teeth, studying, etc. Can "you" control what thoughts enter "your" mind? Included with those cittas and cetasikas constantly arising and falling away, are accumulations and inclinations that are constantly being accrued over the aeons. There is no free will in the Judeo-Christian sense, but there is no fatalism either. So, our actions are determined by conditions, but with the understanding that previous actions have led "us" to this point. Within each sense door and mind door process of cittas and cetasikas arising and falling away, the first part of the process is mostly vipaka: the result of kammic actions from the past. Whatever rupa objects are perceived through the sense doors and mind door is vipaka, the first part of the process. There is no control over this. One cannot "will" what sounds will be heard or what colors will be perceived, etc. The second part of the process is the kammic part: it is here that a "value judgement" is made of the object: it is "marked" by sanna (perception, a cetasika) as either "kusala" (wholesome) or "akusala" (unwholesome). There is no self that can will an action to occur, but rather the processes of zillions and zillions (is there such a number?) of cittas and cetasikas rising and falling, all conditioned, as described by Paticcasamuppada (sp?). So, how can "one" "practice" in the Buddhist sense? It is through lots of reading, listening, writing in on this discussion group, among other things, all of it the study of Dhamma, that will condition kusala cittas and cetasikas to arise so that "one" will continue to be interested in doing this, leading to more kusala cittas and cetasikas to arise later, slowly leading to sati and panna to arise (these are also cetasikas). When these do arise, and they are mostly imperceptable at first, they act as conditions for further study, as well as validating what we have learned on the intellectual level. So, the fact that you take the time each day to read all the letters, ponder on what various people have written in, and write responses which help you clarify your own understanding (as well as help all of us immeasurably) in ways we cannot directly pinpoint, is all part of the practice of Dhamma. All of these kusala actions are "accrued" and act as condition for more kusala to arise later (the same happens for akusala actions as well). Anumodhana (having joy for the dana--generosity--of others) to you for sharing your wisdom and understanding with us, and especially to Sarah and Jon for providing this forum, as one means of "carrying out" the practice. with metta, Betty > > Howard: > > ... > > > All I mean is making it a point to pay attention to what is going > > > on, > > > to notice when there is a lapse in that, and particularly, by repeated > > > attempts to turn this attentiveness into a *habit*. If that is *willing* > > > something I'm not sure. It is certainly goal-directed bahavior. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Sounds pretty much like plain old *willing* to me ;-)). > > > > Is there perhaps an underlying assumption that 'making it a point to pay > > attention to what is going on' is kusala or more likely to be so than not, > > or even a kind of satipatthana? Satipatthana involves the direct > > experience of dhammas by consciousness that is accompanied by kusala > > factors of a very high level. To my understanding, the conditions for > > such mental states to arise cannot be willed into being, and they do not > > include 'goal-directed behaviour' (oh that it were so!!). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ahh. Well, good, Jon - so there's nothing I need to do. What will be, > will be. That's good. It certainly makes my life easier - less complicated. > If I sleepwalk through my days and exert no effort to do otherwise, that's > unfortuanate, but just my accumulations. If "the direct experience of dhammas > " should happen, that will be nice, and, if not, well - c'est la vie. Nothing > to do. Nothing to cultivate. > I apologize for the irony, Jon, but this is how I evaluate what you > are saying. There is nothing for us to do, no actions that we should or can > take. What is it, then, to be a practicing Buddhist? If, to put into practice > the teachings of the Buddha does not require *doing* something, exercising of > will, then everyone is a Buddhist practitioner. I'm sorry, but this > no-exercise-of-volition position just escapes me. (I'm speaking > conventionally here, Jon. I know that there is no "us" to be doing anything. > I know there is no "you" and no "me" - but still I write to you! ;-) > Outgoing messages scanned and certified safe by Stop-Sign, the Personal Alarm Service. http://defender.veloz.com/dlp_ban/?n=tl&sp=08.out002 15567 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 8:04pm Subject: Fw: [dsg] "doing" something in Buddhism Sorry if this gets sent 2X; was not sure it went the first time, Betty _______________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" To: Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] "doing" something in Buddhism > Hello, Howard, > Hope all is well and that the new school year is going smoothely for you. > Usually am silent, but thought I'd write this time. "We" all like to think > there must be a "will" do carry on some sort of practice, but when "we" > think so, it is merely a "self" doing the thinking. Included in Right > Understanding then, is first, the intellectual understanding that there is > no self that can will "us" to carry out any action, be it getting up in the > morning, etc. Owing to conditions, cittas and cetasikas arise, which > condition thoughts at the mind door, which condtion action: getting up in > the morning, brushing the teeth, studying, etc. Can "you" control what > thoughts enter "your" mind? > > Included with those cittas and cetasikas constantly arising and falling > away, are accumulations and inclinations that are constantly being accrued > over the aeons. There is no free will in the Judeo-Christian sense, but > there is no fatalism either. So, our actions are determined by conditions, > but with the understanding that previous actions have led "us" to this > point. > > Within each sense door and mind door process of cittas and cetasikas arising > and falling away, the first part of the process is mostly vipaka: the result > of kammic actions from the past. Whatever rupa objects are perceived through > the sense doors and mind door is vipaka, the first part of the process. > There is no control over this. One cannot "will" what sounds will be heard > or what colors will be perceived, etc. The second part of the process is the > kammic part: it is here that a "value judgement" is made of the object: it > is "marked" by sanna (perception, a cetasika) as either "kusala" (wholesome) > or "akusala" (unwholesome). There is no self that can will an action to > occur, but rather the processes of zillions and zillions (is there such a > number?) of cittas and cetasikas rising and falling, all conditioned, as > described by Paticcasamuppada (sp?). > > So, how can "one" "practice" in the Buddhist sense? It is through lots of > reading, listening, writing in on this discussion group, among other things, > all of it the study of Dhamma, that will condition kusala cittas and > cetasikas to arise so that "one" will continue to be interested in doing > this, leading to more kusala cittas and cetasikas to arise later, slowly > leading to sati and panna to arise (these are also cetasikas). When these do > arise, and they are mostly imperceptable at first, they act as conditions > for further study, as well as validating what we have learned on the > intellectual level. > > So, the fact that you take the time each day to read all the letters, ponder > on what various people have written in, and write responses which help you > clarify your own understanding (as well as help all of us immeasurably) in > ways we cannot directly pinpoint, is all part of the practice of Dhamma. All > of these kusala actions are "accrued" and act as condition for more kusala > to arise later (the same happens for akusala actions as well). > > Anumodhana (having joy for the dana--generosity--of others) to you for > sharing your wisdom and understanding with us, and especially to Sarah and > Jon for providing this forum, as one means of "carrying out" the practice. > > with metta, > Betty > > > > Howard: > > > ... > > > > All I mean is making it a point to pay attention to what is > going > > > > on, > > > > to notice when there is a lapse in that, and particularly, by repeated > > > > attempts to turn this attentiveness into a *habit*. If that is > *willing* > > > > something I'm not sure. It is certainly goal-directed bahavior. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Sounds pretty much like plain old *willing* to me ;-)). > > > > > > Is there perhaps an underlying assumption that 'making it a point to pay > > > attention to what is going on' is kusala or more likely to be so than > not, > > > or even a kind of satipatthana? Satipatthana involves the direct > > > experience of dhammas by consciousness that is accompanied by kusala > > > factors of a very high level. To my understanding, the conditions for > > > such mental states to arise cannot be willed into being, and they do not > > > include 'goal-directed behaviour' (oh that it were so!!). > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Ahh. Well, good, Jon - so there's nothing I need to do. What will > be, > > will be. That's good. It certainly makes my life easier - less > complicated. > > If I sleepwalk through my days and exert no effort to do otherwise, that's > > unfortuanate, but just my accumulations. If "the direct experience of > dhammas > > " should happen, that will be nice, and, if not, well - c'est la vie. > Nothing > > to do. Nothing to cultivate. > > I apologize for the irony, Jon, but this is how I evaluate what you > > are saying. There is nothing for us to do, no actions that we should or > can > > take. What is it, then, to be a practicing Buddhist? If, to put into > practice > > the teachings of the Buddha does not require *doing* something, exercising > of > > will, then everyone is a Buddhist practitioner. I'm sorry, but this > > no-exercise-of-volition position just escapes me. (I'm speaking > > conventionally here, Jon. I know that there is no "us" to be doing > anything. > > I know there is no "you" and no "me" - but still I write to you! ;-) > > > Outgoing messages scanned and certified safe by Stop-Sign, the Personal Alarm Service. http://defender.veloz.com/dlp_ban/?n=tl&sp=08.out002 15568 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 4:25pm Subject: Re: Einstein's Theory of Relativity/ Christine Hello Christine, >I wonder if you could kindly expand on each of your following >statements: I can try. >"the Dalai Lama [said] that the Dhamma must ultimately yield to science? I believe this has come up especially in the context of dating suttas, some of which have been shown to be significantly later than they are reputed to be; ultimately, I believe he has said, this dating, if definitive, should be accepted. This is a big deal since supposedly some were written and hidden away through the centuries, giving them their putative legitimacy. Considering the large number of conferences he has hosted with western scientists he has shown a great interest in dialogue and harmonizing the Dhamma with science. I believe that if the Dhamma conflicts with science then science wins; but it's difficult to find a real conflict, one where science actually trumps. Does anyone hold that the earth is flat with four continents around a huge mountain? Well, then they're wrong. Does anyone believe that the Agganna sutta genesis is literally true? It isn't. So I gave a few examples of possible conflicts to show that they aren't resolved (and, possibly, they aren't resolvable) by scientific methods. >Even so this gives a lot of wiggle room (like the Kalama sutta ;-). Imagine the various sages coming back into town and being told the Buddha has since visited and convinced them to only accept what they find right within their own experience. I rather doubt they'd maliciously twist their mustaches and mutter "Foiled again." They'd say "Cool, do that." I suspect that even animal sacrificing Satanist think they're right. (Pol Pot, who killed 2 million people, thought he was right at his little trial at the end of his life.) Christians tell me all the time how they were previously rotten and Jesus turned them around; they *know* he exists from personal experience; their (rather tiresome) Kalama sutta. (And, from time to time, someone posts an anti-Kalama statement on DSG: Been at it 10 or 20 years with little to no apparent results? Then abandon the medieval scholastic approach? No, just keep at it.) As an independent epistemological criteria it's porous. >Cartesian dualism (nama-rupa as separate realities) is way on the outs, but >certainly not eliminated. Searle (in "Minds, Language, Society," I think) remarked that he was surprised, sharing a platform with the Dalai Lama, that he believed in mind/body dualism; apparently Cartesian dualism wasn't just a western error! You'd be hard pressed to find a Cartesian in philosophy or any of the brain sciences; perhaps Eccles and Popper were the last major voices. And they were so far out in the wilderness virtually no one even bothered to discuss them. It has few adherents in philosophy, is absent in cognitive science (natch), and (this isn't my field) doesn't really have any standing in neuroscience. So it's very unpopular, and under sustained and seemingly withering criticism. But it still remains possible, say, that the brain is a transmitter of an independent consciousness, like some kind of radio receiver. So all the correlation's hold (e.g., damage this part and hearing goes) but the interpretation changes. Dualism has not been, if even such is possible, refuted. It could come back, in some revised form, and supplant mind/brain identity theory, functionalism, and non-reductive monism (my favorite), the current hot trends. >Psychic powers are sort of a joke, but who can really know? There's not much I can say here without being rude; this stuff is childish. But there's no a priori reason why it's impossible. >Rebirth has nothing to be said for it but clearly remains possible." Damage the brain and consciousness is damaged, in fairly predictable ways. Destroy the occipital lobe and vision goes. Powerful local damage produces those strange cases Oliver Sacks discusses. Massive damage, massive loss of function: mental retardation. Destroy the brain => no consciousness. Everything seems to point that way. But again, it's far from a sure thing. Who knows? >with gratitude in anticipation of an elucidating reply - Oh, I think you're being a bit sarcastic, something not completely unknown to me ;-) metta, stephen 15569 From: Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 4:33pm Subject: Re: Fwd: Would learning Pali really help? At least the situation isn't like the Tao Te Ching where it's almost impossible to tell if two people are even translating the same verse. And where most of the 'translators' don't even know Chinese! I think we would all? agree that there are a large number of Pali words that should not be translated (e.g., dukkha, metta, panna). I find that a significant part of my study involves finding out what they mean, and a translation would hinder, not help. metta, stephen 15570 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 8:56pm Subject: Mindfulness in Daily Life Hi Jon (and others), In last week's class, I did a review of mindfulness (sati) and was asked, "I can appreciate how one develops mindfulness during a mediation retreat, but how can we make mindfulness part of our daily lives?" Jon, I remember posing a similar question to you when we met in Hong Kong. Perhaps it is a measure of my deepening understanding or your direct / indirect influence on me, but I was able to give an immediate reply as follows: "Don't confuse mindfulness (sati) with concentration (samadhi). Concentration can take time to develop and a conducive environment, such as a retreat, certainly helps. Mindfulness is not an action of doing something, it is an act of un-doing; not thinking, not judging, not associating, not planning, not imagining and not wishing. When we talk, we use words, the domain of papanca. To function in daily life, we live in the world of concepts, papanca again. However, we can all take a one second vacation from time to time to abandon papanca to practice mindfulness of nama and rupa. As we develop a skill of abandoning papanca and practicing mindfulness in daily lives, we can use this tool during our mediation practice." Do you agree with my response? Next week, I want to revisit this important question again at the beginning of the class. I want to expand on it further and talk about the time between lying down in bed at night and falling asleep. At this time, the mind has a tendency to move to the past (I should have said this..., why did that person do that...), or to the future (tomorrow, I have to remember to...) or move into a fantasy world (I wonder what it would be like to be that character in the film...). I am going to propose to the class that this is an excellent time to practice mindfulness (without the pain of the full lotus position). I am new to this concept of practicing mindfulness in daily life. I seek the advice of other DSGrs on how to present it effectively. Thanks, Rob M :-) 15571 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 9:01pm Subject: Re: Einstein's Theory of Relativity/ Christine Hi Stephen, I value your input. Would you be willing to review and discuss my document before I present it? If so, I suggest that we do it off-line so that we can exchange email attachments. Please give me your email address and you can expect something preliminary from me in a few days. Thanks, Rob M :-) PS: If there are other DSGrs who would like to be included in this off-line discussion, please let me know. PPS: The final version of the paper (whatever we agree upon) will be included in the October version of Class Notes, so that all DSGrs can view it. 15572 From: epsteinrob Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The purpose of samatha / Rob Ep Hi Jon. Thanks for the additional comments! I tend to think that samatha and vipassana support each other, although I'm not knowledgeable enough to back this up. It makes sense to me that deep peace and calm with concentration would have the potential to allow for clear seeing. But I will wait to gather more information before attempting to say more. Robert Ep ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > Just to supplement the answers I gave in an earlier post (that you > apparently only got around to reading after you wrote this -- and which > you say largely answers your questions) 15573 From: epsteinrob Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 9:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nutriment --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > > > Thank you for the following information. I must say, though - > > this > > business strikes me as 1) a mixing of actuality and concept, and 2) > > pseudo-scientific from the modern perspective. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > As to your (1), I think we probably tend to equate 'rupas' with > 'sense-door object'. However, this is not really so. > > While all objects that are experienced through the 5 sense-doors are > indeed rupas, the reverse is not true. Only 7 of the 28 rupas are > directly experienced through a sense-door. The remaining 21, nutrition > among them, can be experienced only through the mind-door. However, this > does not make it any more a concept and any less a rupa Dear Jon, Could you please explain how 'nutrition' and the other non-sensory dhammas are rupas, and why and how they are mind-door objects rather than sense-door objects? Thanks, Robert 15574 From: epsteinrob Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 9:17pm Subject: Re: Nutriment / Rob Ep Hi Jon. What I am having trouble understanding is not the fact that it takes a description to refer to the nutritive characteristic or essence, but how it is a rupa that can be experienced, rather than thought about or conceptualized. How is it, even if not in this lifetime, that 'nutritive essence' can be an actual object for the mind? How would a citta encounter it? It seems to me that the nutritive capacity of food is a concept. When nutrition leaves food and enters the body and continues it's journey to feed the cells and organs, there is nothing in that process that we could actually call 'nutrition'. That is a conceptual tag-word for a complex series of processes, just like everything else in life. It appears, although I am happy to be corrected, that these rupas, such as 'nutrition', are concepts elevated to the status of rupas for philosophical reasons. I think it would be important to be able to distinguish a rupa that has that general or abstract a description from a concept. Best, Robert Ep. ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > ... > < characteristic in the moment apart from thought? Surely, one can only > encounter a characteristic that is actually present in the rupa itself, > not something that has to be adduced of it? How can one perceive in the > moment that an object is capable of being food?>> > > The 'definition' I gave was just my own clumsy attempt at expressing what= > would have been better left to the texts cited by Nina (and copied again > below). From the Atthasalini, a more accurate definition would be, 'Tha= t > which is present in food that preserves beings, keeps them alive'. > > As mentioned both in the Nyanatiloka extract and by Nina, this rupa can > only be experienced through the mind-door. To my understanding, this for= > all practical purposes means it is unlikely to be experienced by us in a > lifetime. > > However, to answer the main thrust of your post, the fact that a rupa > needs a sentence or so to describe its characteristic doesn't mean it is > any less a rupa. The rupas that we commonly call simply 'visible object'= > or 'sound' are in fact more accurately described as 'the phenomena > experienced through the eye- or ear-door'. > > Jon > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/rupas.txt > Nutrition is another kind of rúpa which has to arise with every kind > of materiality. It can be exerienced only through the mind-door. The > "Dhammasangaùi" (§ 646) mentions food such as boiled rice, sour gruel, > flour, etc., which can be eaten and digested into the "juice" by which > living beings are kept alive. The "Atthasåliní" (II, Book II, Ch III, > 330) explains that there is foodstuff, the substance which is > swallowed (kabaîinkåro åhåro, literally, morsel-made food), and the > "nutritive essence"(ojå). The foodstuff which is swallowed fills the > stomach so that one does not grow hungry. The nutritive essence > present in food preserves beings, keeps them alive. The nutritive > essence in gross foodstuff is weak, and in subtle foodstuff it is > strong. After eating coarse grain one becomes hungry after a brief > interval. But when one has taken ghee (butter) one does not want to > eat for a long time (Atthasåliní, 331). 15575 From: epsteinrob Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1)/ Ken H Hi Christine. I'm not sure whose debates you are referring to here, so I don't know if it was directed in part towards myself or others -- that is part of the danger in making a general statement. It does make me nervous however, since a lot of my discussions tend to be ones that challenge parts of the Abdhidhamma that I either don't understand or that don't add up to me. I always invite clarification and have a feeling of friendship in pursuit of understanding with those who are here. My goal is ultimately understanding the path, so even if I am skeptical of some of the ideas that are expressed here - and others are of mine - I think we are involved in a healthy endeavor together. I have always been assured by Jon and Sarah that my views are welcome, and I am sure that is true for others here as well. While I agree with you that it is a mistake to make personal remarks, that is the only place I would draw the line, since the differing ways we interpret the Dhamma is part of what we have to offer each other. I just want to make sure that people are not going to start thinking that the only legitimate way to participate here is to look into the meanings of the commentaries, rather than share or even debate their diverse but sincere views. Best, Robert Ep. ======================= --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Ken H,and All, > > I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say > > : "May I add though, that I'm not > really interested in hearing how anyone agrees with some > parts and disagrees with others. I'd rather we > concentrate on understanding the original text. > Kind regards > Ken H" > -------------------------------------------- > Amicable discussions of the Teachngs are a wonderful thing and help > to arrive at a deeper understanding, but there are no winners > in 'debates' over practice, or disputing the validity of parts of the > Dhamma. Implying others are wrong, not as widely read or mislead > is not fruitful. Providing what is posted agrees with the Tipitaka, > let each tread their own path. Some have mentioned others as not > having the 'experience'. No-one knows the life history of others on > this List. No-one knows the citta of another. As the Home Page > states, this is a Theravadin Dhammastudy List set up to discuss the > Three Baskets of the Tipitaka and their Commentaries, and IMO, our > main focus should be studying of those texts. > > with much metta, > Christine > ----------------------------------------- > > An excerpt from the Pasura Sutta > > Among those who live above confrontation > not pitting view against view, > whom would you gain as opponent, Pasura, > among those here > who are grasping no more? > So here you come, > conjecturing, > your mind conjuring > viewpoints. > You're paired off with a pure one > and so cannot proceed. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-08.html > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Larry, Christine, Sarah, . . . > > > > I'd like to enrol in the new abhidhamma class. 15576 From: epsteinrob Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 9:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Jon, Jumping in, the following things make this Sutta a possible description of meditation practice to me: 1/ To me it sounds like 'mindfulness meditation'. In other words, there is an attempt at each stage to focus mindful or understanding awareness towards the object of discernment. So it may not sound like some forms of meditation, but it does sound like mindfulness practice to me. 2/ There is one basic object of the mindfulness, the breath, and this to me makes it an organized practice, or meditation practice. One imagines, at least I do, that to focus on these attributes of the breathing with mindfulness, one would have to be sitting and concentrating. It does not sound like a 'general' practice, to be undertaken while going through normal activities. 3/ The attributes of the four foundations of mindfulness and other objects discussed in the Sutta are presented in an organized, graded fashion. It seems to me that this progression would represent a course of progress that one would move through in working with this 'set' over a period of time, in other words, a number of sessions. This also seems to me to be a meditatitve practice, and a structured progression, rather than something to be applied in a more happenstance way. 4/ I like the portions you have selected for scrutiny. I think the thoughtfulness and understanding that the Buddha requires from this practice is indeed striking, and points to a deep sense of what mindfulness might consist of, whether we apply it as a formal practice or as a daily focus upon arising phenomena. Best, Robert Ep. ====================== --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I've just been looking again through the Satipatthana Sutta, this time > focussing on what I might call the 'operative words', that is, the key > terms used by the Buddha in describing how each of the 4 > foundations/arousings of mindfulness is carried out. I list these out > below. I think they make interesting reading. > > [Body] > Mindful, he breathes in > thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands > 'thinking thus, he trains himself > understands: 'I am going'; > is a person practising clear comprehension > reflects... thinking thus > thinks of his own body thus > > [Feeling] > experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands... > > [Consciousness] > understands the consciousness with lust > > [Mental objects] > knows with understanding [5 hindrances] > thinks: 'Thus is material form...' [5 khandhas] > understands the eye and material forms [6 sense-bases] > knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor [7 > enlightenment factors] > understands: 'This is suffering,' [4 noble truths] > > This doesn't seem to me like the language of formal meditation practice. > Do you see anything here, or elsewhere in the sutta, that points to a > formal meditation practice? > > Jon 15577 From: epsteinrob Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 9:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Jon, Whoops, in my response here I was really thinking of the anapanasati sutta. The satipatthana sutta, which I am slightly less familar with, seems to be organized in a way which is applicable to meditation, and some sections seem to indicate particular meditations and contemplations that can be done with specific objects. But it is also obvious that sections of it are meant to be applied to daily life. I can't imagine the mindfulness of standing, sitting, going forward and backward, etc., to be descriptive of a particular 'meditation'. It is obvious there that Buddha means practitioners to be mindful of what is taking place whenever they stand, sit, walk, or lie down, throughout daily living. If find the anapanasati sutta to be more in the form of a systematic meditation manual. By the way, I found the satipatthana sutta and commentary at this URL: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html. I know you are familiar with access to insight; just thought I'd post it in case any of us want to take a look. Looks like the whole commentary is there, and I hope to read it when I have the time. Best, Robert Ep. ================ --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "epsteinrob" wrote: > Hi Jon, > Jumping in, the following things make this Sutta a possible description > of meditation practice to me: > > 1/ To me it sounds like 'mindfulness meditation'. In other words, > there is an attempt at each stage to focus mindful or understanding > awareness towards the object of discernment. So it may not sound like > some forms of meditation, but it does sound like mindfulness practice > to me. ... 15578 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Larry, Just speaking for myself, I’m quite happy NOT to be left ‘in peace’ ....I always appreciate your comments and consideration here, Larry. Like Rob Ep just said, I too “have a feeling of friendship in pursuit of understanding with those who are here” and appreciate that we all have very different backgrounds and accumulations which affect how we communicate, study and develop this understanding. I also agree with you that it’s not true to say “that meditation is something only suited to an elite few.” and true to say that “meditation is for anyone”. However, there are many ways of understanding ‘meditation’ and for myself, I’m really only interested in what is meant by bhavana (meditation) - samatha and vipassana-- as I understand the term from the texts and as it applies to life at this moment. I’ve already explained at length why this is so. I appreciate that others have a different understanding when they read the same texts and this keeps us in discussion;-) Concepts do not need to be in words. A small baby doesn’t have any vocabulary, but there is still the thinking of concepts and the ideas about colours, smells, tastes , sounds and bodily impressions. As concepts are not ultimately real (even though they may represent actualities), they do not have the characteristics of impermanence and unsatisfactoriness. We cannot refer to them as ‘sankhata’ or formed up. Clinging can cling to anything now, including concepts. Concepts are not, however, included in the 5 khandhas.which represent all the paramattha dhammas (ultiamte realities) apart from nibbana, of course. However, if there were no khandhas now, could there be any thinking about concepts? So we can say that when there is clinging to concepts, it’s on account of the 5 khandhas - on account of rupas, of consciousness, of feelings and so on. Sarah ===== 15579 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mind-process (was, Upekkha vs. Tatramajjhattata) Dear Rob M and Jon (and anyone else not put off by processes and Pali terms), I know the following is too late for your lecture on processes, Rob, but it may at least be helpful for your Notes. ..... > Below is what Nyanatiloka says on the origins of the details on the mind > process. Hope this is of interest. > > Jon > > citta-víthi, > (as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes of > consciousness, such as ávajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santírana, > votthapana, javana, tadárammana, bhavanga, cuti): > None of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in > Pts.M. > Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice > or > thrice briefly mentioned ..... However, in the commentaries to the Abhidhamma texts, there is a wealth of detail. The following is from Sammohavinodani, Dispeller of Delusion (Commentary to the Vibhanga),.PTS (1750f). We read these details about the citta vithi (process of cittas). As you may not have a copy of this text, I’ll quote quite fully . ***** Furthermore, “clear comprehension through non-delusion” should here be understood also by way of a) “full understanding of the root” (muulapari~n~na), b) of “visiting” (aagantukabhaava) and c) of “temporariness” (taavakaalikabhaava). Firstly a) by way of “full understanding of the root”: Life continuum and adverting, seeing follows, then receiving, Investigation, determining, and then impulsion comes as seventh (DA i 194; MA i 262; SA iii 191) Herein, the life continuum (bhavanga) occurs accomplishing the function of a factor (anga) of rebirth process existence (uppatti bhava). by interrupting (aavattetvaa) that, the functional mind element (kriyaa manodhaatu) occurs accomplishing the function of adverting (aavajjana). Upon the ceasing of that, eye consciousnes (cakkhuvi~n~naana) occurs accomplishing the function of seeing (dassana). Upon the ceasing of that, (kamma) resultant mind element (vipaaka manodhaatu) occurs accomplishing the function of accepting (sa.mpa.tichana). Upon the cessation of that, (kamma) resultant mind consciousness element (vipaaaka manov~n~naanadhaatu) occurs accomplishing the function of investigation (santiirana). Upon the cessation of that, functional mind consciousness element (kriyaa-manovi~n~naanadhaatu) occurs accomplishing the function of determing (votthapana). Upon the cessation of that, impulsion (javana) impels (javati) seven times. Herein, in the first impulsion (by itself) there is no looking towards and looking away by way of lusting, hating or being deluded, (thinking:) ‘This is a woman, this is a man.’ The same is the case with the rest of the seven impulsions (singly). Nevertheless it is when these (impulsions), after breaking up, fall one on top of another, like soldiers on the battlefield, that there comes to be looking towards and looking away by way of lusting, etc (thinking:) ‘this is a woman, this is a man.’ Thus should “clear comprehension through non-delusion” here be understood by way of “full understanding of the root”. b) but when a visible datum comes into focus in the eye door, impulsion arises at the end when, following the disturbance in the life continuum, adverting, etc have arisen and ceased with the accomplishment of their respective function. That (impulsion) is like a visitor in the eye door which is the home of the previously arisen adverting and so on. And as it is improper for a visitor who has entered another’s house to ask for something, to give orders, when the owners of the home sit in silence, so lusting and hating or becoming deluded in the eye door which is the home of adverting, etc is improper when adverting, etc do not lust or hate or become deluded. Thus should “clear understanding through non-delusion” be understood by way of “visiting”. c) But those consciousnesses ending with determining which arise in the eye door break up together with their associated states just there (where they arose), they do not see each other and they are brief and temporary. Herein, in a house where all the human (occupants except one) are dead and the remaining one is due to die that very moment, it is improper for him to delight in dancing, singing, etc; so indeed, when adverting and so on with their associated states are dead in that same eye door and also the impulsion that remains is due to die that very moment, it is improper for it to delight by way of lusting, hating and becoming deluded. Thus should “clear comprehension through non-delusion” be understood by way of “temporariness”. ***** The entire section is full of helpful detail and reminders about anatta. Here are two more brief ones: “Herein, what single person moves forward? Or to what single person does the moving forward belong? For in the highest sense there is only a going of elements, a standing of elements, a sitting of elements, a lying dowin of elements. For in each portion, together with the materiality, “ ‘Tis another consciousness that rises, another consciousness that ceases; Like to a river’s (flowing) stream that occurs in unbroken succession” (DA i 193; MAi 261; SA iii 190)” ***** “Likewise the eye is the eye element; the visible datum is the visible datum element; the seeing is the eye consciousness element; the states associated therewith beginning with feeling are the mental datum element. In this way “looking towards and looking away” is stated in terms of these four elements. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person looks away?” ***** Rob, there are several other places in this text where details of the processes are given and where registration cittas (tadaarammana) are given too (eg 178 and 706f) which gives details of various processes at the time of death and rebirth in great detail - we learn about ‘dying in confusion’, ‘when one is going looking the other way, they cut off his head with a sharp sword from behind...’, ‘rapid dying’ when ‘they squash a fly sitting on the handle of a spade...’ and all the details of the citta vithi (process) that follow and the variations. There is far more detail than I can begin to convey here and quite probably the answers to points you raised on variations of citta vithi. If you would like any more detail or clarification, I can try to help;-) Christine, let me know if you'd like to hear what happens to the poor squashed fly, too;-( Btw, in an earlier series of posts I discussed (with quotes) the early origins of the Abhidhamma and Commentaries back to the Ist Council. Sarah ===== 15580 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1)/ Ken H Dear Christine, I think we are in agreement on the points that matter but in one, minor, area, I've noticed a subtle difference: If you think back to the meeting at Andrew's place, there were a couple of occasions when someone openly expressed disagreement, not with the interpretations, but with the Dhamma itself. On those occasions, I felt compelled to point out, in the nicest possible way of course, that we were there to learn the Buddhadhamma -- we hadn't driven all that way to listen to "The World According to Fred Smith!" I seem to remember that you were decidedly more tolerant than I was. Come to think of it, so were all the others. :-) I think we agree, however, on one aspect of this, an aspect that goes far beyond mere etiquette: The Dhamma may not be a teaching of blind obedience, but it does need to be taken as one's ONLY refuge. We can't have a bet each way. Ehi-passika means, "come and see;" it doesn't mean, "stand outside and peek in." I'm not making excuses for intolerance, but if we can point out to someone that he is not honestly trying to see what the Buddha taught, then we might be saving him, and ourselves, a lot of wasted time. Kind regards Ken H P.S. The above is mere opinion and might easily be wrong. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Ken H,and All, > > I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say > > : "May I add though, that I'm not > really interested in hearing how anyone agrees with some > parts and disagrees with others. I'd rather we > concentrate on understanding the original text. > Kind regards > Ken H" > -------------------------------------------- > Amicable discussions of the Teachngs are a wonderful thing and help > to arrive at a deeper understanding, but there are no winners > in 'debates' over practice, or disputing the validity of parts of the > Dhamma. Implying others are wrong, not as widely read or mislead > is not fruitful. Providing what is posted agrees with the Tipitaka, > let each tread their own path. Some have mentioned others as not > 15581 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 11:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mind-process (was, Upekkha vs. Tatramajjhattata) Hi Sarah, This is wonderful! --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Rob M and Jon (and anyone else not put off by processes and Pali > terms), > > I know the following is too late for your lecture on processes, Rob, but > it may at least be helpful for your Notes. > ..... As it turns out, it is not too late for my lecture on process. I am doing a review of kusala cetasikas now (buys me some time) and following that I will do my "Einstein" lecture. The process lecture is at least two weeks away, maybe three (depending on how the review goes). > There is far more detail than I can begin to convey here and quite > probably the answers to points you raised on variations of citta vithi. If > you would like any more detail or clarification, I can try to help;-) Please send more! Please send more! Thanks, Rob M :-) 15582 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 11:44pm Subject: PTS Printing in India Hi All, I was at one of my local Buddhist Bookstores at lunch today and they told me that the Pali Text Society would now be printing their books in India. The bookstore said that the price would drop signficantly and the first batch of books would be available in January or February. The bookstore was also hoepful that the Indian company would be more responsive than PTS. Thanks, Rob M :-) 15583 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] subtle point, to Kom Dear Nina & Kom, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote > Maybe the monk who is walking conveys to himself, with mindfulness, that > he > is going forward now, and then there is kaya vinnatti. ..... I’m not sure how relevant this is and I know you’ll have read these details before. Nina, do you have the ‘revised’ PTS edition of Sammohavinodani? We have the 1996 edition which includes a lot of Pali terms and is very user friendly. I note it was revised by Lance Cousins, Nyanaponika and C. Shaw. The section of relevance is in the chapter ‘Classification of the Jhanas’ and immediately preceds the part (1751f)I just quoted for Rob M on citta vithi (processes). The following are quotes from the section 1741 - 1751 . ***** “But ‘clear comprehension through non-delusion’ is not being deluded as regards moving forward and so on. That should be understood thus: here a bhikkhu, when moving forward or moving backward, unlike the blind ordinary man who deludes himself as regards moving forward, etc (by imagining;) ‘A self moves forward, the moving forward is produced by a self’ or : ‘I move forward, the moving forward is produced by me,’ is one who is not so deluded; when the consciousness ‘I (will) move forward’ arises, together with that same consciousness there arises the consciousness originated air element, which produces (bodily) intimation (vi~n~natti). thus this framework of bones called the body moves forward by means of the diffusion of the air element due to the action of consciousness.” *** “There is no self inside which looks towards or looks away; but when the consciousness ‘I (will) look towards’ arises, together with that same consciousness there arises the consciousness-originated air element which produces intimation. Thus the lower eyelid drops down and the upper eyelid jumps up by means of the diffusion of the air element due to the action of consciousness. There is no one who opens with a contrivance. After that, eye consciousness arises accomplishing the function of seeing. But here clear comprehension in this way is called ‘clear comprehension through non-delusion’ “. ***** Nina, there is plenty more detail in between these quotes, but I know you have access to it. There are also some details on these points and citta vithi (processes) in the sub-commentay to the Satipatthana Sutta under ‘clear comprehension of walking and so forth’ as I remember. Sarah ===== 15584 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: Einstein's Theory of Relativity/ Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello Christine, > >I wonder if you could kindly expand on each of your following > >statements: > I can try. <<<<<<<>>>>> > >with gratitude in anticipation of an elucidating reply - > Oh, I think you're being a bit sarcastic, something not completely unknown to > me ;-) > metta, stephen Hello Stephen, Thanks for your post, certainly clarifies your thoughts. Having managed to get into trouble with RobEp, Ken H, and you over my manner of posting today - I think I'll quit while I'm way behind. :-) metta, Christine 15585 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1)/ Ken H/ROB EP Hi Robert Ep, and Ken H, I always look forward to, and find valuable, any posts either of you care to send. I take your point about the danger in making such general statements and unreservedly apologise for the offense given. metta, Christine 15586 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta reference to Jon Many thanks, Nina. Much appreciated. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > Gradual Sayings, book of the Nines, Ch II, § 10, Velama. > It continues: ...had he made become, just for a fingersnap, the > perception > of impermanence. > Nina. > > op 08-09-2002 10:14 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > > > > "…though with pious heart a disciple took refuge in the Buddha, the > Dhamma > > and the Sangha, his reward would have been greater if he had, with > pious > > heart, undertaken to keep the precepts: ... > > "though with pious heart he undertook to keep the precepts, greater > still > > would have been his reward if he had conceived even a passing thought > of > > amity and goodwill." > >> > > > > > 15587 From: egberdina Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 4:39am Subject: Re: Fwd: Would learning Pali really help? Dear Christine, You asked for it:-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I initially posted this message elsewhere but would be very > interested to > hear any thoughts anyone here may have. > > metta, > Christine > > Subject: Fwd: Would learning Pali really help? > > > > --- In Triplegem@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Recently on a number of lists, members have had differences about > the > > Buddha's teaching based on translations of the Tipitaka. It occurs > > to me that 21st century Buddhists are at the mercy of the vigilance, > > ethics, and competence of translators and of the translators > > interests and biases (unconscious or otherwise). 21st century buddhists and non-buddhists alike are at the mercy of ignorance more than anything else. Not the type of ignorance that is mitigated by scholarship. More the ignorance that prevents the insight into what is happening right here, right now. You are perhaps familiar with the Leunig cartoon of a man with his arm around his little son, sharing with him the delight of seeing the sunrise on TV, whilst the sun is seen to rise through a side window. The sun doesn't rise in books. If the book helps you to find the window, good and well. Perhaps the book may show you where the door is. But to go there, you need to leave the TV and the book behind. If you really want to find the truth , you have to be prepared to forsake everything, absolutely everything. The book says that too. Anatta for starters. A little, true story. I am greatly indebted to my father. At age 50, he discarded his entire theology/philosophy library. (He also was a minister of religion). Imagine the four walls of a roomy study, lined with shelves from the floor to the ceiling, not a vacant square centimetre, all the shelves jam-packed with hefty tomes on you-name- it, anything to do with spiritual quests. What happened? A small germ had taken root. God is not found in books. He quit the church, and his garden did better out of it, too. All the best Herman 15588 From: debanstis Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 4:50am Subject: Hi from Aus Hi, My name is Deb, I am new to your group, I have always been interested in Theravada Buddhism and travelled through Sri Lanka and Thailand. I am a beginner to "terms", so I hope to gain a deeper understanding of Theravada Buddhism from the interactive context of this group. So, I may lurk for awhile before I post again. Thankyou in advance, Deb from Australia 15589 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] "doing" something in Buddhism Hi, Betty - It's nice to hear from you. In a message dated 9/8/02 11:03:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, beyugala@k... writes: > > Hello, Howard, > Hope all is well and that the new school year is going smoothely for you. > Usually am silent, but thought I'd write this time. "We" all like to think > there must be a "will" do carry on some sort of practice, but when "we" > think so, it is merely a "self" doing the thinking. Included in Right > Understanding then, is first, the intellectual understanding that there is > no self that can will "us" to carry out any action, be it getting up in the > morning, etc. Owing to conditions, cittas and cetasikas arise, which > condition thoughts at the mind door, which condtion action: getting up in > the morning, brushing the teeth, studying, etc. Can "you" control what > thoughts enter "your" mind? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no I, we, or self. Agreed. But there is willing. It is conditioned. Among the conditions are chanda and decision. (In the following, whenever the words 'I' 'we', etc are used, please know that it is conventional speech, and is so intended.) The reason I am writing to you is that I willed it. I could have chosen not to, but my wish was to reply, and so I exercised my will and did so. You and others on the list can opt for formal meditation - or not. It is your choice. It IS a choice. And we all make the choice, one way or another. Everything is conditioned. So what? Why is cetana the one cetasika that so many on DSG treat as an unwanted child. No one seems to mind to conventionally say "I think such and such", or "I felt such and such", but there is great upset should anyone say that "I chose/willed to do such and such"! --------------------------------------------------- > > Included with those cittas and cetasikas constantly arising and falling > away, are accumulations and inclinations that are constantly being accrued > over the aeons. There is no free will in the Judeo-Christian sense, but > there is no fatalism either. So, our actions are determined by conditions, > but with the understanding that previous actions have led "us" to this > point. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have no disagreement with this. Actions that are unconditioned, if they existed, would be random and of no interest to anyone. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Within each sense door and mind door process of cittas and cetasikas > arising > and falling away, the first part of the process is mostly vipaka: the > result > of kammic actions from the past. Whatever rupa objects are perceived > through > the sense doors and mind door is vipaka, the first part of the process. > There is no control over this. One cannot "will" what sounds will be heard > or what colors will be perceived, etc. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That is true. (However, one can initiate, following one's wishes, to cover one's ears or avert one's eyes [a practice, BTW, sometimes suggested by the Buddha], or move away from the present location to avoid certain experiences. That is the exercise of volition. ------------------------------------------------------- The second part of the process is the> > kammic part: it is here that a "value judgement" is made of the object: it > is "marked" by sanna (perception, a cetasika) as either "kusala" > (wholesome) > or "akusala" (unwholesome). There is no self that can will an action to > occur, but rather the processes of zillions and zillions (is there such a > number?) of cittas and cetasikas rising and falling, all conditioned, as > described by Paticcasamuppada (sp?). > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Right. There is no agent. There is willing, but no willer - just as there is thinking but no thinker, seeing but no seer, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > So, how can "one" "practice" in the Buddhist sense? It is through lots of > reading, listening, writing in on this discussion group, among other > things, > all of it the study of Dhamma, that will condition kusala cittas and > cetasikas to arise so that "one" will continue to be interested in doing > this, leading to more kusala cittas and cetasikas to arise later, slowly > leading to sati and panna to arise (these are also cetasikas). > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: "One" DECIDES to do that studying. "One" wills it. I find it fascinating that people on this list are very ready to recommend engaging in the practice of study, as if that took no volition but somehow just happens, but not anywhere near ready to speak in the same way about meditating and guarding the senses, both of which require unrelenting and powerful acts of will to be carried out in any useful way. The Buddha spoke far more of energetically pursuing sila, of guarding the senses, and of meditating, both formally and informally, than he did of studying his teachings. He even brought a mentally impaired man to some degree of awaking by means of the meditative practice of mindfully rubbing a cloth! But so many here turn this upside down, approving of willful study but disapproving (as hopeless or uncontrollable) other practices. --------------------------------------------------------- When these do> > arise, and they are mostly imperceptable at first, they act as conditions > for further study, as well as validating what we have learned on the > intellectual level. > > So, the fact that you take the time each day to read all the letters, > ponder > on what various people have written in, and write responses which help you > clarify your own understanding (as well as help all of us immeasurably) in > ways we cannot directly pinpoint, is all part of the practice of Dhamma. > All > of these kusala actions are "accrued" and act as condition for more kusala > to arise later (the same happens for akusala actions as well). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So the Buddha's path has become one of reading and writing (and thinking over the content). Could *this* be the declining of Gotama's dispensation? ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- > > Anumodhana (having joy for the dana--generosity--of others) to you for > sharing your wisdom and understanding with us, and especially to Sarah and > Jon for providing this forum, as one means of "carrying out" the practice. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I truly do appreciate your saying that I may have something worthwhile to contribute from time to time. Thank you. As far as the "issue" of this post and the post of mine to which this is a reply is concerned, however, it still seems to me that there has not been a real addressing of the matter of how one is to engage in Buddhist practice, including study, without willing to do so. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > with metta, > Betty > ============================== Thanks very much for writing, Betty. With metta, Howard Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15590 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 7:20am Subject: Re: Hi from Aus - Question? Hi Deb, Welcome to the group! You might want to download the "Class Notes" from the files section - it's pretty light on "terms" (i.e. not too much Pali). I am confused about something. The Internet is pretty much global, so there is equal opportunity for people of many nationalities to join in this discussion group. Why is it that so, so many of the members of this group are from Australia? A wildly disproportionate percentage... any theories? Perhaps it is something in the drinking water :-) ? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "debanstis" wrote: > > Hi, > My name is Deb, I am new to your group, I have always been interested > in Theravada Buddhism and travelled through Sri Lanka and Thailand. > I am a beginner to "terms", so I hope to gain a deeper understanding > of Theravada Buddhism from the interactive context of this group. > So, I may lurk for awhile before I post again. > Thankyou in advance, > Deb from Australia 15591 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Searching for 'Courage' in the Teachings Dear Chris, I’ve been reflecting quite a bit on ‘courage in the scriptures’ and perhaps some of these personal reflections and notes will be useful for you or others. There was also quite a lot of dicussion of relevance (I think) arising from the India series, so I’ll include some reminders from it as well as other posts. --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have been thinking a lot recently around the subject of Courage. > I couldn't find much on 'courage' in the scriptures - though there > was much on fear and terror. ...... > Then it occurred to me that as others of the admired 'worldly' > qualities are not so admired within Buddhism ("righteous anger" > springs to mind) - perhaps there are reasons why some types of > courage are also not admired? Not sure. ***** To be a quality to be ‘admired within Buddhism’ it will have to be reflect a wholesome or pure state of mind. As we know with these wholesome mental states, they are momentary and not to be confused with so called ‘wordly qualities’ which often are related to a story of situation. When I hear the word ‘courage’, it’s a reminder to have courage to really understand realities as they are, not as we’d like them to be. I particularly reflect on the aspect of knowing our kilesa when it comes to courage. Hiri (moral shame) and otappa (fear of blame) are the wholesome qualities which are the proximate cause of sila (morality) and which see the shame in unwholesome states: “..For when conscience (hiri) and shame (ottapa) are in existence, virtue arises and persists; and when they are not, it neither arises nor persists.....”. These states are the opposite of shamelessness and recklessness. There is courage to develop skilful states. They accompany other skilful states such as right effort ‘..for the non-arising of evil unskilled states that have not arisen....for the getting rid of evil unskilled states that have arisen....’ and so on. Under the perfection of sila in the Cariyapitaka com (B.Bodhi’s transl of Brahmajala Sutta & coms p287), we read how the bodhisattva is courteous in conduct, helps those who are sick. “When he receives well-spoken advice he expresses his appreciation. He praises the noble qualities of the virtuous and patiently endures the abuse of antagonists....when he commits a transgression he acknowledges it as such and confesses it to his co-religionists. Afterwards he perfectly fulfils the right practice.” ..... Hmm, if I were to acknowledge all my ‘transgressions’ to my ‘co-religionists’ here, I’m not sure there’d be room for anything else. Still, I find the reminders useful. Perhaps even more, when I consider courage, I think of sacca (truth) parami. In the chapter ‘The Perfection of Truthfulness’ in her own series on the Perfections, Nina writes: “The function of truthfulness is verifying according to fact. What are the facts? Our ignorance and the many defilements which arise are facts. We should not be deluded abour realities. Do we want to know them as they are, or do we pretend to be more virtuous and wise than we actually are? It takes courage to verify according to fact, but sincerity is indispensable for the development of right understanding. We may take akusala citta for kusala citta, but we have to verify the truth. For example, when we are helping others we may think that there are kusala cittas all the time, but is this true? “Helping can be very superior”, Bhante Dhammadhara reminded us.” ..... This reminder really rings a bell for me. When my students are happy or get good results, it’s easy for me to kid myself about all the kusala helping and yes, even the ‘superior’ helping. Indeed it takes courage to be honest with oneself at these times and not to 'pretend to be more virtuous and wise' than we really are. As Herman just suggested (I think), it's easy to blind oneself with book knowledge and again take akusala study for kusala wisdom. Nina just wrote about ‘Self Examination’ and there is a sutta with the same title (AN, Bk of Tens,51, B.Bodhi transl): ***** “....for a monk, self-examination is very helpful for the growth of wholesome qualities: “Am I often covetous or often not covetous? do i often hve ill will in my heart or am I often free of it?......... When, by such self-examination, a monk finds that he is often covetous, full of ill will, slothful, excited, doubtful, angry, mentally defiled, bodily restless, lazy and unconcentrated, then he should apply his utmost zeal and energy, effort and exertion, as well a unremitting mindfulness and clear comprehension, to the abandoning of all those evil, unwholesome qualities. Just as a man whose clothes or turban are on fire would apply his utmost zeal and energy, effort and exertion, as well as mindfulness and clear comprehension, so that he may extinguish the fire; even so, the monk should apply his utmost zeal and energy...for the abandoning of those evil, unwholesome qualities.” ***** I left the last paragraph about the turban in just for Sukin;-) Of course, all these reminders of wholesome and unwholesome states should be read in the light of anatta and non-control. Sacca (truthfulness) parami is followed by adhitthana (determination) parami because it takes determination to perfect sacca. Another perfection in the recent series by A.Sujin mentions nekkhama (renunciation) in the light of courage: “the perfection of renunciation does not merely mean leaving the household life and becoming a monk. Renunciation means having the energy and courage to eliminate the clinging we all have to visible object, sound and the other sense objects.” ..... We don’t usually think about courage with regard to ‘eliminating clinging’ or ‘guarding the sense doors’, but then as Larry has reminded us, the dhamma is ‘deeper than deep’. There have been reminders to have ‘patience, bravery and cheerfulness’ (athaan rarung in Thai). Nina wrote more on this and said: “When people do not see any result in being aware of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound and all objects appearing through the six doors they become disheartened, they give up. But as I learnt from a text of the Mahaniddesa given by Jim about jhaayati, reflection, we have to examine realities closely, often, frequently, in various ways, continuously. Pa~n~naa has to go on discriminating nama and rupa, not once or twice”. ..... When we’re concerned about our results and impatient for changes and development, there is no courage. Rob K wrote “...the Dhamma of the Buddha is about leading out of samsara and that doesn't happen overnight. The Buddha had the patience to develop the parami over 4 uncountable aeons and 100,000 kappas and (as Kom said) we can get the courage to carry on by knowing that it is no easy task.” Indeed the Bodhisatta had to listen to twenty four Buddhas before attaining Buddhahood eventually in his last life. Ken H replied to Azita along the same lines: “Are any of us honestly ready to give up ignorance in exchange for final extinction of the khandhas? For the time being, I'll settle for your `courage, patience and good cheer.' “ Again Nina wrote “We need patience to listen to the Dhamma, to consider often the different cittas of our life, kusala or akusala. Instead of aversion of our akusala we should have the patience to study and consider the different cittas arising because of conditions. Also energy, viriya is indispensable, to have courage, to continue studying and considering the dhammas of our daily life. When we make efforts to help others it is tiring, but then we need patience and energy, courage, not delaying kusala, not giving it up, making false excuses. “ ..... In another section from the India series, Nina writes “Each day Acharn Sujin exhorted us to take courage and to be cheerful. We read in the ‘Kindred Sayings’ (I, Sågåtha vagga, IV, Måra, Ch II, §6, The Bowl): On one occasion, at Såvatthí, the Exalted One was instructing, inciting and inspiring the monks by a sermon on the five khandhas of grasping (upadåna khandhas). And the monks with their whole mind applied, attentive and intent, listened with rapt hearing to the Dhamma. The Commentary (the Såratthappakåsiní) explains that the Buddha was instructing, teaching under different aspects the specific and general characteristics of the khandhas of grasping. The Buddha was enlightening, inciting and inspiring them. The Commentary explains that he exhorted them to have energy and endeavour. As we read in the sutta text, the monks listened with enthusiasm, with rapture, to the dhamma. Thus, this text reminds us to be courageous and not to give up developing understanding, an d to be cheerful, glad about the Dhamma. We discussed courage and cheerfulnes s because of the Dhamma several times. Acharn Sujin explained that when akusala citta arises we may dislike it, we may feel bad about it, but akusala can be realized as only a conditioned reality. Then we shall not tr y to do something else but the development of right understanding of what appears now, even if it is akusala. We have accumulated akusala for countless lives, and thus there are conditions for its arising. We shall no t be downhearted but we can be courageous and glad to be able to know the truth. We may be discouraged about our lack of awareness and understanding, our lack of progress. We should not expect the arising of a great deal of understanding when it has not yet been accumulated. Understanding should be developed very naturally in our daily life and in that way we can live happily, without anxiety. We can rejoice in the Dhamma we learnt and take courage to continue developing right understanding.” ***** Let me finish with these reminders I find so helpful from ‘Life’s Brevity’, AN, Bk of 7s, 150 (B.Bodhi transl): “Short is the life of human beings, O brahmins, limited and brief; it is full of suffering, full of tribulation. This one should wisely understand. One should do good and live a pure life; for none who is born can escape death. “Just as a dew-drop on the tip of a blade of grass will quickly vanish at sunrise an will not last ong; even so, brahmins, is human life like a dew-drop. It is short, limited and brief; it is full of suffering, full of tribulation. This one should wisely understand. One should do good and live a pure life; for none who is born can escape death.” ***** Best wishes for ‘courage, patience and good cheer’. Sarah ===== 15592 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Searching for 'Courage' in the Teachings Dear Christine, You found the word viriya, and this is courage. Further see below, you got the meaning, courage to eradicate defilements. The Ch on the perfection of Energy, viriya, is about all the aspects of viriya, and you will see all after the Ch on Wisdom. Now I shall just quote a part of it: End quotes. N: We need courage to be aware of nama and rupa in daily life, and when there is the perfection of viriya we do not become downhearted when progress is so slight that it cannot be noticed. But we continue inspite of obstacles. There is no fear for an unhappy rebirth, no stress that we should become a sotapanna in this life in order to be safe from an unhappy rebirth. Because of viriya we do not delay being aware even of such a thought, we can be aware of it as just a kind of nama that is conditioned. As Rob K reminded us, there is fire on our head, a sense of urgency is the proximate cause of viriya. That means even our wish for a faster way to the realization of the four noble Truths should be realized right now as only a nama, a kind of thinking. Then we are not lazy and inert, any moment is a moment fit for awareness. We have to become heroes. Best wishes from Nina. op 08-09-2002 06:53 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Dear Group, > > I have been thinking a lot recently around the subject of Courage. > I couldn't find much on 'courage' in the scriptures - though there > was much on fear and terror. Some Pali words related to courage are: > courage (nt.) viriya. (f.) dhiti; abhãrutà. (m.) parakkama; > courageous (adj.) såra; vãra; dhitimantu; viriyavantu;; > courageously (snip) > To me, Courage is more than the absence of fear. Courage is the 'not > giving in to' or the 'overcoming' of fear. I know what it is in the > worldly sense - it comes from the Old French word for 'heart' - it is > the strength to do or face something that one finds frightening. It > means feeling fear, but enduring that feeling, standing firm against > whatever comes, and doing what needs to be done despite it. (snip) > My understanding at this point is that firming up courage and > overcoming fear depends on two things 1. Somehow increasing the > power of ones Saddha and 2. Somehow decreasing the power of ones > Defilements. Just have to find out how ..... 15593 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 10:00am Subject: philosophy Dear Stephen, Your post was interesting but many difficult points, and thus, I asked my sister. I like to learn more because it helps me to understand different backgrounds of people. I get more interested now in philosophy. My sister explained at least a little about the quantum theory. Best wishes from Nina. 15594 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 4:29pm Subject: ADL ch. 24 (1) http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 24 (1) Enlightenment One cannot attain enlightenment without having cultivated the right conditions. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, Book XI, Kindred Sayings on Streamwinning, chapter I, §5, Såriputta) about four conditions for becoming a sotåpanna (streamwinner). The sutta states: Now the venerable Såriputta went to see the Exalted One, and on coming to him saluted him and sat down at one side. To the venerable Såriputta so seated the Exalted One said this: `` `A limb of stream-winning! A limb of stream-winning!´ is the saying, Såriputta. Tell me, Såriputta, of what sort is a limb of stream-winning.´´ ``Lord, association with the upright is a limb of stream-winning. Hearing the good Dhamma is a limb of stream-winning. Applying the mind is a limb of stream-winning. Conforming to the Dhamma is a limb of stream-winning.´´ ``Well said, Såriputta! Well said, Såriputta! Indeed these are limbs of stream-winning. Now again, Såriputta, they say: `The stream! The stream!´ Of what sort is the stream, Såriputta?´´ ``The stream, lord, is just this ariyan eightfold way, to wit: Right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.´´ ``Well said, Såriputta! Well said, Såriputta! The stream is just this ariyan eightfold way. Now again, Såriputta, they say, `Streamwinner! Streamwinner!´ Of what sort is a streamwinner, Såriputta?´´ ``Whosoever, lord, is blessed with this ariyan eightfold way--such an one of such a name, of such and such a clan, is called `Streamwinner´.´´ The first condition, association with the righteous person, is most important. It would not be possible to find the right path by oneself. Only Buddhas have accumulated such wisdom that they can find the Path by themselves, without the help of a teacher. Other people, however, need the teachings of a Buddha in order to find the right path, because ignorance has been accumulated for an endlessly long time. We need association with the right person, the good friend in Dhamma, who can point out to us the right path, because our defilements prevent us from finding the right path. Our friend in Dhamma can encourage us to develop right understanding of nåma and rúpa. The question may arise what one should do if one is not able to find the right friend in Dhamma. Is reading the scriptures not a condition to find the path leading to enlightenment? It is true that reading the scriptures is also very helpful since they can encourage us to be mindful of nåma and rúpa in daily life. We might, however, interpret the teachings in the wrong way. It depends on conditions whether we come into contact with the right person who can help us to understand the teachings as well as the practice in accordance with the teachings. Accumulated kusala kamma can be the condition for us to meet the right person. When we have heard the Dhamma from the right person, we should ``apply the mind´´; this is the third condition. We should not blindly follow the person who teaches us Dhamma, but we should investigate the scriptures ourselves, ponder over the Dhamma, and consider it carefully, in order to test the truth. The real test of the truth is the practice itself. Therefore, the fourth condition is ``conforming to the Dhamma´´, which is the development of the eightfold Path. By being mindful of the phenomena appearing through the six doors we can find out ourselves whether it is true that these phenomena are only nåma and rúpa, arising because of conditions. We can investigate ourselves whether they are impermanent or permanent, whether they are dukkha or happiness, whether they are non-self, anattå, or ``self´´. We can find out through the practice itself whether we really understand the teachings. If we practise in the wrong way we may eventually find out that this does not lead to right understanding of the realities of our daily life. Through the development of the eightfold Path we will have more confidence (saddhå) in the Buddha´s teachings. We will have more confidence when we experience that through right understanding of nåma and rúpa in daily life there will be less clinging to ``self´´. Lokuttara cittas cannot arise without the cultivation of the right conditions. Some people wish for an end to dukkha but they do not develop understanding in daily life. They hope that one day lokuttara cittas will arise. The Buddha pointed out that the realization of the four noble Truths is difficult, and he said this, not in order to discourage people, but in order to remind them not to be heedless. 15595 From: azita gill Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 4:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi from Aus --- debanstis wrote: > > Hi, > My name is Deb, > So, I may lurk for awhile before I post again. > Thankyou in advance, > Deb from Australia > > dear Deb. Welcome to the group, I am also a 'lurker', who posts occasionally, but reads fairly often. I'm sure you will find many interesting items on this site. We are an easy going mob, and you will read lots of Dhamma, which is why we are here of course, enjoy and hope you benefit. I too, am from Aus. Cheers, Azita. > > 15596 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 4:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Larry, I think we are now using the terms conceptual in different ways. Before we continue, I want to see if we can agree on some terms/meanings. Paramatha dhamma: actual realities: dhamma that appears to the nama/consciousness without any thinking involved. Hardness appears to the mind without thinking. If you hit something hard in the dark, you may not know what you hit, but the hardness appears nonetheless. If you feel around what you hit a bit, and make out a shape of a table, then you think "table" (maybe without naming). Hardness is paramatha dhamma, table is a concept. Paramatha dhamma and concepts appear to the nama, alternating very rapidly. It is hard to separate realities and concept, but only realities have its own sabhava, its own "essence", its own chracteristics, its own function; concepts don't have any of this. Can you agree to the terms above (which is commonly used in DSG and Nina's books)? If you could, then can you tell me which is which: 1) Is hardness paramatha dhamma or concept? 2) Is visible object paramatha dhamma or concept? 3) Is lobha paramatha dhamma or concept? > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 1:36 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana 15597 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 7:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Sarah, I believe our question is why are concepts not realities. I thought about this for about two hours and could neither answer it nor disprove it. I found faults with reasons on both sides of the question. Ultimately I think my problem is in not understanding either. So.... I give up. Larry 15598 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 8:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Kom, I've forgotten what our original question was but I could comment on these questions: "1) Is hardness paramatha dhamma or concept? 2) Is visible object paramatha dhamma or concept? 3) Is lobha paramatha dhamma or concept?" Hardness is just hardness, it would never be "table" unless one were trying to identify by touch. So there is a definite difference here between sensation and concept. However, there *could* be a very subtle concept involved in hardness sensation. I don't know. I'd have to take a closer look, somehow. Visual sensation usually (if not always) identifies something but not with name and meaning (concept). Concept is added later but what is this identity? Subtle concept? If so, how to separate visual sensation and concept? Even an unknown is identified as an unknown. By the way, something interesting happens when a name is added to an un-named identity. It becomes severely limited. I'm not sure what to make of this, but it's worth investigating. Lobha is very interesting. Supposedly this is a cetasika but it seems to me it is more like rupa with concept. Vedana is the same way. There are bodily sensations involved with desire or pleasant feeling, for example. But they are more than body sensation; I can't think what that 'more' could be if not concept or "subtle concept". By the way, how do you separate concept from vitakka and vicara or ditthi? Larry ps: what did Tan Acharn Sujin talk about? 15599 From: Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] philosophy Hello Nina, Thanks for the post. Perhaps your sister can come over and explain quantum physics to me! What a crazy bunch of theories, many of which are apparently true. I come from a background of analytic philosophy (insofar as I have any academic background), which has been both helpful and a hindrance. It's given me, let's say, some different ideas. I have numerous disagreements with the abhidhammic approach, some of which are over rather basic premises. I hope you will be game to discuss some of them with me as they crop up. I read your book ADL (among others) a few summers back and found it a model of clarity. Despite our differences I certainly have no hostility to the abhidhamma, finding in it a helpful spiritual psychology. metta, stephen