15400 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Time for a change (a long post) Hi Howard, Publisher is Buddhist Cultural Centre, 125 Anderson Road, Nedimala, Dehiwala, Sri Lanka. Tel 71-4256 Fax 72-6737. I paid Rs160 (US$1.67) for the book. It is soft cover, 110 pages (including index). ISBN 955-9219-06-5. Originally written in 1958, the second edition was printed in 1994. Howard, I would be pleased to photocopy the book and send it to you. Please send your snail mail address to me at rob.moult@j... So Howard, do you support this change or not? Thanks, Rob M :-) PS: If others would like a photocopy of this book, please advise so I can get the copying done at one time. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > I consider this post of yours to be important enough for me to save. > Thank you. I would very much appreciate a fuller reference for the book > "Buddhist Psychology of Perception" by E. Sarachchandra, M.A., Ph.D., D. > Litt., Chancellor, University of > Peradeniya, Sri Lanka. In particular, I would like the date, publisher, and > the ISBN, and I would also like to know the price of the book. Is there a pbk > edition, or only hardcover? > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 9/2/02 2:02:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... > writes: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am reading a book, "Buddhist Psychology of Perception" by E. > > Sarachchandra, M.A., Ph.D., D. Litt., Chancellor, University of > > Peradeniya, Sri Lanka. Actually, the book was his thesis submitted > > to the University of London for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy. > > A little light reading :-) The book has three sections: "Theories of > > Perception in the Nikayas", "Perception in the Abhidhamma" > > and "Theory of Bhavanga". > > > > Here is a quote from the book, "The results of the investigations > > embodied in the Nikayas were made use of by the schoolmen of the > > fifth century for the formulation of a theory of perception which, > > while being faithful as far as possible to the views of early > > Buddhism, attempted also to fill in the gaps that were left by it. > > The theory is quite unique in the history of Indian thought, and it > > was probably the work of Buddhaghosa after having immersed himself > > in Sanskrit philosophy. There are in it unmistakeable signs of the > > influence of the theories of perception that were current in the > > schools of Indian philosophy and the schools of Mahayana Buddhism. > > Whenever borrowings were made, however, they were modified and > > adapted so as to be in keeping with the ideology of Theravada > > Buddhism." > > > > There is a chapter of the book titled, "Developments in the Twelfth > > Century", where the theory of moments was introduced into the > > Abhidhamma, to merge/adapt/refute positions of the Yogacara and > > Sautrantika schools which also had developed similar theories at > > that time. Later, the book spent some time explaining the parallels > > and differences between bhavanga and the Alaya Vijnana of the > > Yogacara school. > > > > As I delve into the details of the thought process in preparation > > for my class, I come to the conclusion that if I want anything more > > than a very simple overview, I am wandering into the realm > > of "speculative theories" put forth by philosophers. The > > philosophers can't agree; there is a different view of the > > importance of the registration citta as explained in the Visuddhi > > Magga (early concept; registration is an exceptional case, rarely > > occurring), the Abhidhammatthasangaha (late concept; registration > > occurs in most thoughts) and the Atthasalini (wavers between early > > and late concepts). I even find that some of the "simple overview" > > was added later into the Abhidhamma and is not clearly supported in > > the Suttas. For example, it appears as though the registration citta > > was introduced by Buddhaghosa. In brief, I am starting to lose faith > > in the accuracy and authenticity of the Abhidhamma. > > > > Here is another quote from the book, "... the Abhidhamma does not > > make any attempt to explain the phenomenon of memory, for, having > > postulated process without substance, they were without any known > > equipment for explaining it, and were obliged to merely recognize it > > as a fact." Why is it that the Abhidhamma does not give a clear > > description on the function of memory? I think that memory is a very > > important topic that deserves a detailed explanation. > > > > The beginning few paragraphs of the final chapter, "Philosophical > > Basis of the Buddhist Theory of Perception", gives some comfort (to > > me, at least): > > > > ===== > > > > As far as the early texts reveal, the Buddha's examination of mental > > phenomena was undertaken with a purely practical end in view. His > > immediate environment suggested to him the expediency of arriving at > > a practical solution to the problem of pain. There was theorizing > > and speculation around him ad nauseam. The very failure of these > > theoretical methods to arrive at and advocate a satisfactory > > solution to the problem would have emphasized the immediate need for > > a method that would, at least as far as the individual was > > concerned, same him from the inner unrest that was tormenting him. > > No sensitive soul could remain untouched by the pervading chaos and > > disintegration of values. > > > > What the Buddha advocated was that each individual should retreat > > from the battleground and seek to gain his own inward happiness. Let > > the wranglers go on abusing one another and demonstrating their > > several theories with the help of logic. What finality was there in > > this method of logical demonstration? The theory that one of them > > held to be true and irrefutable, the other proved to be false by > > equally convincing arguments (Yam ahu saccam tathiyam ti eke, Tam > > ahu anne tuccham musa ti - Sutta Nipata 883). The alternatives, > > surely were either that all of these contradictory views were > > correct or that they were all false. It is impossible to accept the > > first alternative, for there cannot be several truths in the world > > (Ekam hi saccam na dutiyam atthi - Ibid 884). We are driven to the > > conclusion, therefore, that they are all false, and that some method > > other than logical demonstration must be found to help us in the > > search for truth. > > > > ===== > > > > As a young teenager, I started reading Descartes, Kant and a number > > of other Western Philosophers. At first, I was impressed by the > > skill of their arguments, but then I became disillusioned. These > > were the greatest minds produced by the Western World and they could > > not agree! I postulated that either there was no solution (I did not > > want to accept this) or that they had all taken a wrong turn out of > > the starting gate. My conclusion was that the use of logical > > arguments was somehow the wrong tool for philosophers. For > > example "X" = "cup is on the table" "NOT X" = "the cup is not on the > > table". The intersection of "X" and "NOT X" is the null set. In > > other words, "the cup cannot be both on the table and not on the > > table". The fallacy is that this statement, developed through > > symbolic logic, is only true at one instant in time. The questions > > being asked by philosophers are outside the domain of time and > > therefore logic (at least symbolic logic) is not an appropriate tool > > to deal with philosophical questions. I gave up reading philosophy > > (Wittgenstein did me in) and spent a few years developing "my own" > > philosophy. I thought long and hard about this. > > > > Later, when I was 19 and had a girlfriend whose father was a > > Christian minister. We were sitting around the campfire at their > > cottage one night and her father (the father) asked me about my > > views on religion. I explained that I had been brought up Christian > > but had developed my "own philosophy" over the past few years. He > > was open-minded and asked me to explain my "own philosophy". I had > > never verbalized it before and I talked solidly for two hours. The > > father listened respectfully, asking questions and clarifications > > where appropriate. When it was over, he said to me, "To become a > > minister, you have to take a course on comparative religions. What > > you have described over the past two hours is Buddhism." I was > > shocked! I had never read anything about Buddhism and I found it > > difficult to believe that "on my own" I had come up with one of the > > world's major religions! Later I realized that I had been a Buddhist > > in a previous life and it started to make sense. > > > > So here I am, twenty-five years later facing similar challenges with > > the Abhidhamma as I faced with the western philosophers as a > > teenager. Fortunately, the next few paragraphs in the last section > > of the book I am reading give some guidance: > > > > ===== > > > > One thing noticeable about the argumentations of these clever > > philosophers is that they are by no means salutary to the attainment > > of happiness which, in the last resort, should constitute their > > ultimate aim. One philosopher calls the other a fool, and the other > > retorts with the same term of abuse. If they were both correct, > > either they should both be fools or they should both be wise men and > > there should be no fools at all among the religieux (Parassa ce hi > > vacasa nihino, Tumo saha hoti nihinapanno, atha ce sayam vedagu hoti > > dhiro, na koci balo samanesu atthi - Sutta Nipata 890). Besides, > > these arguments engender passion and lead to a considerable amount > > of heart-breaking. The sad fact about them is, therefore, that they > > defeat their own purpose. > > > > Consequently we might suspect that there is something inherently > > wrong in the very premises from which these arguments start. On > > examination, they are all seen to rest on three things, dittha, suta > > and muta, that is, things seen, heard and cogitated. These three > > things belong to the sphere of sense perception, the sphere of > > discursive reasoning (sanna). Multiplicity of views is the natural > > result of dependence on sense knowledge (Na h'eva saccani bahuni > > nana, annatra sannaya niccani loke - Ibid 886) Logical reasoning > > leads to an inevitable dualism of thought. One is driven to the > > correlatives of truth and falsehood. Only these two alternatives are > > open to the way of logic (Takkan ca ditthisu pakappayitva, saccam > > musa ti dvayadhammam ahu - Ibid 886). > > > > How is one to escape from this vicious circle? It is here that > > introspective analysis helps us. Every form of mental activity is > > seen to lead to our attainment of a kind of knowledge which does not > > satisfy in the last resort. The polarities (dvandva) of happiness > > and sorrow (sukha, dukkha), pleasure and unpleasure (piya, appiya), > > attraction and repulsion (raga, dosa) agreeability and > > disagreeability (satam, asatam) are ultimately seen to rest on sense > > impression (Phassanidanam satam asatam - Ibid 870). Our notion of > > the diversity of external nature is derived from the sphere of the > > senses. All these polarities of thought and feeling lead to conflict > > and strife (kalahavivada), to rancour and pride (manamacchariya). > > > > ===== > > > > I have come to the conclusion that if I were to have the opportunity > > to meet the Buddha and ask about the detailed functions of the > > thoughts in the thought process, the Buddha would answer me as he > > answered Malunkyupatta, "If a man who is pierced by a poison arrow, > > refuses to allow the surgeon to remove the arrow until he is told > > the name, height, etc. of the archer, he would die before learning > > the answers to all of his questions." > > > > My view on the Abhidhamma has changed. No longer is it a subject > > worthy of study for its own sake, nor is it accurate in all > > respects. The Abhidhamma is, however, an excellent structure to help > > study and understand the Dhamma as laid out the Suttas. > > > > I will continue to teach Abhidhamma each Sunday morning. I will > > focus even more on the practical aspects of the teaching rather than > > the theoretical side (focusing on the practical has been my habit > > and style, anyway). I will put more focus on the Suttas. I will > > deliver my lecture on "Inside the Thought Process" on September 15, > > but my focus will using the structure of the thought process to be > > able to cover all seven neutral universal cetasikas and all six > > neutral occasional cetasikas in one class. Yes, the lecture will be > > almost purely theory (how to make a neutral cetasika "practical"?), > > but covering thirteen cetasikas in one class is not bad. > > > > This has been an extremely long post. I feel that my direction is > > shifted a little bit away from the Abhidhamma as a subject of study > > and more to the Suttas as a subject of study (using the Abhidhamma > > as a structure and to provide some background details). This is new > > territory for me and I'm not sure where it will lead. > > > > I would be interested in feedback from others either supporting or > > not supporting this shift in focus (with your reasons, of course). > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 15401 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the noumenal world Hi, Jim - In a message dated 9/2/02 6:08:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > > Dear members, > > I'm not really all that familiar with many of the philosophical terms > used by Western philosophers. I know that 'noumenon' is one of them > and when Howard was asking those tough questions about naama and > nibbaana, I wondered if there was a connection between 'naama' and > 'noumenon'. Not knowing what 'noumenon' meant I had to look it up in a > couple of dictionaries but as it turns out it doesn't have the meaning > I was banking on. At one point I was even thinking of a similar > parallel between ruupa and phenomenon but I have now dropped those > ideas. > > What I found most interesting, however, was Kant's definition of the > phenomenonal world vs the noumenal world which seem in my mind to > relate quite well to the conventional and the real world of the > Buddhist teachings. Here are the definitions given in D.D. Runes' > Dictionary of Philosophy: > > Phenomenal World: The world of appearance as opposed to the world > as-it-is-in-itself. The only world we know, said Kant, is the > world-we-know, (appearance). The real world is beyond our > knowledge. -- p. 231 > > Noumenal World: The real world as opposed to the appearance world. > Kant said of the noumenal realm that it cannot be known. -- p. 215 > > The main difference being that the Buddhist would argue that the > noumenal world can, in fact, be known through the higher > understanding. I think what the Abhidhamma may be doing is describing > this noumenal or real world. > > There is also this interesting comment in the article on Noumenon: > > In his [Kant's] practical philosophy, however, the postulation of a > noumenal realm is necessary in order to explain the possibility of > freedom. -- p. 215 > > Best wishes, > > Jim > ============================ Thanks for this interesting post. Theravada doesn't seem to allow much thought in this direction. Mahayana is more "willing". The perspective there, at least in the Madhyamika school of Nagarjuna, tends to identify noumenon with phenomenon, seeing the noumenal realm as not intrinsically different from the world of phenomena, but rather as identical with the phenomenal realm "rightly seen", which amounts to a nondual seeing of interdependent conditions which are not self-existing, but are merely aspects of an interconnected whole. I just wrote a post to Dhamma List along these lines, a part of which, slightly modified, is the following: *************************** Some people take the position that nibbana is the absence of all conditions as separate things. This position is that seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, and cognizing, and the seen, heard, touched, and cognized are not *absolutely* gone in nibbana, but are gone as separate entities - that what remains is what the defiled mind currently misperceives as separate conditions - what remains is what there is when avijja is removed, and, therefore what there always really was. In a sense, this nibbana is always present, but, in the worldling, and to some extent in the lesser ariyans, is obscured by defilements, hidden by avijja. This perspective is, perhaps, another way of pointing towards the far shore. *************************** Vi~n~nana, as I understand it, is a separative knowing, a separating out of an object from a vast, interconnected field of possibilities. This is a kind of special knowing - one which arises in dependence on kamma (and avijja). With the cessation of ignorance, and the consequent cessation of kamma, there is the cessation of vi~n~nana, leaving that "noumenon" which was actually there to begin with, but misperceived. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15402 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 0:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Time for a change (a long post) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/2/02 7:15:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Publisher is Buddhist Cultural Centre, 125 Anderson Road, Nedimala, > Dehiwala, Sri Lanka. Tel 71-4256 Fax 72-6737. I paid Rs160 (US$1.67) > for the book. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Wow, that is inexpensive! ----------------------------------------------------- It is soft cover, 110 pages (including index). ISBN > > 955-9219-06-5. Originally written in 1958, the second edition was > printed in 1994. > > Howard, I would be pleased to photocopy the book and send it to you. > Please send your snail mail address to me at rob.moult@j... > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That would be wonderful, except I wonder if that would not be a copyright violation. If the Buddhist Cultural Centre has no objection, I would love to have a photocopy mailed to me. Would there be a way for you to easily check on that? If yes, and there is no problem, I will gratefully (and speedily) send you my address. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > So Howard, do you support this change or not? > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I am reluctant to comment definitively on that, Rob. As you and others may have realized, I have serious reservations about parts of Abhidhamma and also about its origins. However, I also see enormous value in it. I don't think that my take on this is of any particular importance. This decision is a personal one for you to make. All I will commit myself to is that it always makes sense to analyze and evaluate as best as one can, and also to avoid extremes when possible. --------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > PS: If others would like a photocopy of this book, please advise so > I can get the copying done at one time. > > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15403 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Hi Howard, k: As what you said that one's predispositions depend on ones factor, that is why I am incline to discourage pple to write their own opinion even if one best shot rather than facts from the sutta and commentaries in well read or any publication. It could lead to distortion of the truth. Opinion should be confined to our own consumption or healthy discussion confining to ones circle of friends and let it be known that is our own opinion esp during this age of the dhamma. kind rgds Ong KC > This, of course, makes great sense. However, > we should also realize > that comparing the teaching to the directly taught > Dhamma is still > subjective. How one understands/interprets the > original teachings is not > entirely objective, but is a function of one's > background knowledge, one's > meditative experience, one's thinking, and, most > perilously, one's > predispositions. > So, all that one can do is "take your best > shot". As far as the > correctness of one's views, one's interpretations, > and even one's practice > are concerned, the old pragmatic adage, "The proof > of the pudding is in the > eating", probably applies. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A > star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, > a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > Sutra) > > > > 15404 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 5:25pm Subject: Re: Time for a change (a long post) Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That would be wonderful, except I wonder if that would not be a > copyright violation. If the Buddhist Cultural Centre has no objection, I > would love to have a photocopy mailed to me. Would there be a way for you to > easily check on that? If yes, and there is no problem, I will gratefully (and > speedily) send you my address. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Oops, you are correct about the copyright laws, though I'm not sure how much money they make on $1.67 :-). Here is their web-site where you can contact them and order books: http://www.buddhistcc.com/bookshop/index.html Thanks, Rob M :-) 15405 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 5:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Kom, here's a few comments: K: "Just like lobha is not conceptual, panna is not conceptual." L: Sorry, I think lobha is also conceptual, actually mis-conceptual, pervaded by miccha ditthi conceiving a self and other. I don't think we can separate concept and reality in ordinary experience. K: "But why do you think Satipatthana leads to detachment?" L: I tried to answer this with my own experience and got in a lot of trouble. Do you not think satipatthana leads to detachment? If not, what is it for? K: "What else do you think satipathana leads to that panna doesn't?" L: Satipatthana leads to present experience but panna doesn't necessarily. The upatthana of satipatthana is present moment; so satipatthana's object is necessarily present experience. Because of that satipatthana's panna is short and succinct. Whereas right view panna could be a whole book, like the Visuddhimagga. K: "Some think vipassana development is not possible / is too hard to do with out jhana development, and some don't. What's your take on this?" L: I think insight happens because of accumulations. Meditation practice seems to be a good thing to accumulate. K: "What exactly is vipassana development?" L: Satipatthana, many ideas on the best way to teach this. Almost all involve some sort of discipline as opposed to a casual approach. K: "I don't think she views (as evident by what all her students say!) Satipatthana the same way as popularly viewed by others. The more important question (I think) is whether or not what she (or anybody else) teaches matches what the Buddha has taught." L: I would be interested in reading what you and Sarah and Jon and Nina and Robert K (or any other of A. Sujin's students) think is the best way to practice satipatthana. Larry 15406 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 6:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Anatta? Hi Rob Ep > > Oh I agree. The question is, can you perceive the > anatta-nature of oneself? k: Rob, this is an extremely difficult question and is a novel one too. Honestly speaking I don't know but I speculate that one should reach at least the level of stream entrant before we could see a glimspe of it. Assuming if we could see it, I don't think we could describe it either to the human level of understanding, just like we try to explain the taste of sweet to a computer with current technology. > I think some on dsg have argued that you can't see the anatta-ness of oneself, because one cannot look at something that doesn't exist [oneself] as an object and > perceive its nature; at least that's the way I > understand it. They would > therefore say, again as I understand it [and ready > to be corrected] that one can > only gain panna towards the anatta of a dhamma - an > object - and by doing so, one > gets rid of attachement to the things of this world > and this life as 'oneself'. I > think that one would see the 'anatta' or 'non-self' > of oneself as being a concept, > perhaps a wise concept, but a concept none-the-less. > > Now I have had the experience which for me at least > seemed like a strong insight > experience, of looking back at my own thoughts, > feelings, etc. and realizing that > there was no 'self' to be found in any of that, that > the awareness by which I was > 'looking within' was impersonal and there was no > 'Robert' present in any of that. > To me that experience was one of seeing that the > presumption of self was a > concept; and to me, that seems like a realization of > 'anatta' on the personal > level. In other words, by directly seeing that > there is not 'self' within, one > realizes the anatta-nature of the presumed self. > But what does one actually > perceive in such a moment? Is it a direct > perception of something, or is it a > concept? I am not sure how to evaluate that, but in > the moment that it happened > it was a very liberating shock to the system. k: To me the experience of Not being there is a very exhilarating experience and hard to describe, it also feel like we are boundless, a sense of total freedom. But is it the real perception of anatta, that is something I do not know. >Then one can witness the arising of various things in the moment without overlaying it all the time with a sense of 'someone perceiving it'. But I am not sure how to > define that experience in terms > of namas and rupas, in terms of which we could > discuss it here on dsg, because it > is the perception of something that one thought was > there NOT being there; it is > the removal of a concept; but how is that perceived > without another concept that > notices and compares the absence? Or are there > mental factors that can account > for this kind of change within a particular citta? k: As one goes deeper into mindfulness and developing more right understanding of impermanence, this witnessing will arise. This is what I called "living in the moment", a moment without any form of prejudice or self or views attched, Some pple called it seeing things as it is. What are the technicality on what citta process involved, that I really do not know. > I think the Vedas are pretty good in most > departments and I don't think they > borrowed from Buddhism. I'm pretty sure they > pre-date the teachings of the > Buddha. The point is that they do deal with > non-clinging to objects and self; and > they do deal with the impermanence of the body and > self-concept. The primary > difference between most Hindu teachings and Buddhism > is that Hinduism still > postulates a soul or Atman which is an inner self or > higher self; a spiritual self > that replaces the lower psychophysical self; while > Buddhism says that the > structures of the psychophysical self do not > constitute a true self or entity; but > there is no 'higher' or 'inner' self to replace it; > instead there is just the > arising of consciousness within the structures of > living and the relinquishment of > that in the realization of Nibbana. > > Then within Buddhism you have the arguments about > what the Enlightened experience > is like WITHOUT a higher or inner self, and what the > implications are of > dis-identifying with the khandas and storehouse > consciousness when there is no > self left over of any kind. Some schools of > Buddhism will argue that there is a > primal nature that takes the place of the > self-concept and is discovered; or which > can be called Buddha-nature as one's true self. Or > that there is a primal > awareness which is shown to be impersonal and not > contained by the khandas, which > tends to be my point of view. But in Theravada most > schools I think tend towards > the self being a false construct and there really > being nothing to take its place > except the experience of living itself which arises > impersonally without a self > and is fully realized as such in Enlightenment. k: Some school of thought equate Nibbana as the true nature of one self, or Greater Mind. But at that time such thoughts have already manifest in various teachings in India. As we know that Buddha rejects the idea of atman, then how could we equate Nibbana as the Greater Mind or true nature. To me there is a danger to equate or describe Nibbana as the Greater Mind or true nature of one self because it generates another "self" to be obtained. Then what is Nibbana, dont asked me. It can't be describe or equate as even Buddha has diffcuitly describing Nibbana to us. > It's not a matter of blaming external things, but seeing that one > is attached to > them. One has to, as you say, acknowledge that the attachment is > one's own, not > the objects, but what is it that we attach this clinging to? > Whatever it is, we > have to let go of it, don't we? When we let go, it is 'our' > clinging that we let > go of, but it is always attached to an object of some kind, whether > a 'big > important' object like our own body, or the presence of a loved > one, or just to > food and sex, or a favorite habit. Can you think of a clinging > that doesn't have > an object? We can even be attached to enlightenment, and I bet > everyone here has > that problem! :0 > k: that is a real problem, we could even attached to enlightment. Can I think of a clinging that doesn't have an object? No. If I remember correctly, one clings till the third stage of Arahat, only the last stage of Arahat then the clinging problem will be solved. > > Because I am? Why have a choice? I AM reading the dsg mails when > I read them, > and at that time, I can't really choose not to. It seems that I > read when I read > and I stop when I stop. Sometimes I want to stop and can't!!! : / k: hmm lobha is a very strong paccaya for cetana:). > Maybe > > I should said there is no such thing as free will but > > there is such a thing as the power of choice/volition. > > I like volition better than choice, because volition has the sense > of being something that arises in conciousness and has energy. I can imagine volition just coming up out of causal factors, whereas choice to me definitely implies that there is a self, a someone, making that choice. And that is the opposite of anatta, as far as I can tell. k: I should have used volition in the first instance rather than choice :). kind regards KC (= Ken O) 15407 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Speech and Intentions was (Re: Updated Class Notes Now On-Line) Hi Rob M > > Again, P.13 of Class Notes indicates the "class" of beings (see > remarks under "killing"). "Large animals more serious than small > animals, humans more serious than animals. Virtuous being more > serious than non-virtuous being." > k: Where do you get these references? kind regards kc 15408 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 7:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Time for a change (a long post) Dear Rob, All I can say is "been there, done that". My conclusion is I don't know enough to quit, so I'm staying the course. I've learned more about the dhamma through abhidhamma study than any other way. If you are like me, what you have right now is an attitude problem. Attitude changes from moment to moment, day to day. You could look at this attitude as it arises and recognize it as an impermanent phenomenon, "not me". Everyone changes all the time, but I hope you will stay with abhidhamma. You have made an excellent contribution to this group and I bet you would be surprised at the difference you have made to your students. People can get sutta study anywhere, but abhidhamma study is rare. If it doesn't provide you with an answer to every question that pops into your head, maybe you need to rest the head. This stuff is deeper than deep. Let it work on you. best wishes, Larry 15409 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/2/02 8:12:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > k: As what you said that one's predispositions depend > on ones factor, that is why I am incline to discourage > pple to write their own opinion even if one best shot > rather than facts from the sutta and commentaries in > well read or any publication. It could lead to > distortion of the truth. Opinion should be confined > to our own consumption or healthy discussion confining > to ones circle of friends and let it be known that is > our own opinion esp during this age of the dhamma. > > > kind rgds > Ong KC > ========================== I understand your point. I generally make it a point to indicate that what is only my opinion is, indeed, just that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15410 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 9:05pm Subject: [dsg] Speech and Intentions was (Re: Updated Class Notes Now On-Line) Hi Kenneth, Am on the road now; I will check which commentary they came from when I return home on the weekend. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Rob M > > > > > Again, P.13 of Class Notes indicates the "class" of beings (see > > remarks under "killing"). "Large animals more serious than small > > animals, humans more serious than animals. Virtuous being more > > serious than non-virtuous being." > > > > k: Where do you get these references? > > > kind regards > kc > 15411 From: Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 5:46pm Subject: Re: Time for a change (a long post) Hello Howard, I have this book and will be glad to loan it to you if the copyright thing is seen as a problem. I had great difficulty reading it, never getting beyond the first 15 pages or so, do to the large number of untranslated Pali footnotes (and one passage in the text, as I recall). Perhaps I can do a bit better now than a few years ago. I'd be way glad to loan it if it came back with translations! metta, stephen 15412 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 9:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Time for a change (a long post) Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Everyone changes all the time, but I hope you will stay with abhidhamma. I will definitely stay with the Abhidhamma, because, like you, I find it an excellent way to learn the Dhamma. What will change is my focus; less on the technical aspects of Abhidhamma and more on the practial aspects of the Abhidhamma (and the Dhamma). No disillusionment, just a shift in approach. Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. Thanks, Rob M :-) 15413 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1) Hi Larry & All, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > [Note: The final two chapters of ADL have been revised and are viewable > on the web only at the Zolag site. So with Christine's help I will post > these last two chapters from the final version. Due to peculiarities of > the transmission I have had to guess where to end paragraphs. Also, > diacritical marks were transmitted which I haven't eased. These may > misprint in your system. ..... It came out fine in my system ..... Many, many thanks to Binh Anson and Robert > Kirkpatrick for making this invaluable work available on their web > sites.] > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ ..... Likewise. Many thanks to you too, Larry for your hard anc consistent work for the ADL corner. I've benefitted a lot by considering more carefully. Maybe we need to start at the beginning again;-) Just kidding. Do you have any plans or suggestions for the next study corner? Perhaps we'll need a break to finish digesting ADL first. How about B.Bodhi's Abhidhamattha Sangaha? Rob M could then introduce any disparities he finds with other Tipitaka texts or commentaries and notes from other translations can be considered too. (Not sure we'd ever finish mind you - guess it would depend on Num's scheduling). If it's considered too long, we could use another one of Nina's books on line, eg Cetasikas or Nyantiloka's Buddhist Dictionary or any other text we mostly like. Sarah ===== 15414 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 10:43pm Subject: Re: Four Sublime States Dear Kom, Rob M and all, My favorite quote is: "Noble and sublime joy is not foreign to the Teaching of the Enlightened One. Wrongly the Buddha's Teaching is sometimes considered to be a doctrine diffusing melancholy. Far from it: the Dhamma leads step by step to an ever purer and loftier happiness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel006.html with metta / Antony. 15415 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 10:13pm Subject: Re: Welcome Dear Sarah, Rob K and all, Thanks for the warm welcome. I have been monitoring the dsg archives for a while and have found some topics interesting in the last week or so. I live in Sydney, Australia. I am 32 years old and have been studying Theravada since I was 23. The main point I learnt about introductory Abhidhamma from a Burmese monk Ven U Dipaloka was that anxiety, worry, fear, sadness, anger are all //dosa//. I've heard that the Patthana is profound but difficult. My interests in the Dhamma include Buddhist Economics, Right Speech and The Four Sublime States (and other works by Nyanaponika). I accepted Kamma and Rebirth only after reading the comprehensive "Paticcasamuppada" by Mahasi Sayadaw which I recommend: ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/therabud/mahasipt.zip I look forward to participating in dsg further. Best wishes / Antony. 15416 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Problem Of The Greater Mind Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: >...... Nyanatiloka writes "náma: (lit. > 'name'): 'mind', mentality." > If there is no cognitive aspect to nibbana, if it is not the > nondual > awareness of absence of objects and conditions, if it can be taken as > object > but is, itself, unknowing in addition to being unconditioned, then it > sounds > more like an "unconditioned rupa" than a nama. .... Just reading from the latest extract from Perfections: “The term by rúpas (rúpesu) means: by the four great Elements and the derived rúpas that are dependent on these”. Or from Atthasalini, “one having material qualities (ruupii) refers to the possession of material quality (ruupa.m)”. Maybe it’s easiest to just consider nibbana as nama by default or to say realities consist of cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana if that helps. ..... >Moreover, in this case, > *entry* to final nibbana sounds more like annihilation to me than > liberation > - it sounds like a final turning off of the light. Instead of being the > freeing of consciousness, the dropping off of all conditions, entry to > nibbana inaugurates the ultimate avijja (non-seeing). Let me ask you - > what > is it you would find lovely in that? > ------------------------------------------------------ I don’t find this phrase very lovely and somewhat confusing. Anpupadi-sesa nibbana or parinibbana is nibbana with the cessation of the khandhas. “They who, by knowing this state uncompounded have heart’s release, by cutting off the stream, they who have reached the core of dhamma, glad To end, such have abandoned all becomings.” (Itivuttaka, ch 11). Of course it is not appealing to those of us with so much lobha accumulated. Only the arahats have eradicated all lobha for all becoming (bhava). > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But what is distinctive about namas? > ------------------------------------------------------- I don’t think I can add much more to the quote from Atthasalini (discussed in more detail, PTS trans p500) without more research. There is also this one other short quote if it helps: “In the mind and matter group, the term ‘mind’ (naama) is applied to mental properties because ‘names’ once given to them are fixed, or because they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend the mind unto themselves. ‘Matter’ is that which changes its state or condition (according to heat or cold, etc).” (p.69) >> --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The "levels of consiousness" are variations among the cittas, > particularly as regards their intensity and the kinds of cetasikas > associated, nothing more mysterious. Bhavanga cittas, for example, have > low > intensity, and are subliminal. > ---------------------------------------------------------- I think ‘subliminal’ ‘subconscious’ are confusing terms to refer to bhavanga cittas as discussed before. I agree we could talk about the intensity of cetasikas - degrees of dosa, for example. I don’t think we could talk about seeing or bhavanga citta as being less intense because they are not accompanied by lobha or dosa though. One other point I’d like to pick up (read: butt in) from your post to Nina. She said “I better understand sound now, pleasant or unpleasant, hearing, aversion on account of it.” You replied that “this is theoretical understanding, understanding via the intellect. It is not the understanding that is freeing (though it *is* supportive of that understanding).” ..... Of course, if we talk about these realities now, it is most probably just theoretical understanding. However, at the moments hearing or aversion or sound arise, there can be direct understanding of their characteristics without any thinking or theorizing. Panna that directly knows realities can arise anytime if there is clear comprehension. This understanding is ‘freeing’ for just that moment, but of course no kilesa (defilements) will be eradicated or 'freed' until panna is of the degree to realize nibbana with the sotapatti magga (at stage of sotapanna). It just depends on conditions at this moment what kind of understanding may arise. Hope I haven’t confused further;-) Sarah =====. 15417 From: dark knight Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 1046 Hello Sir, I have a small doubt reg. "noting" mentioned in your mail attached below. Message: 11 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:26:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Epstein Subject: Re: Re: Walking meditation (was, A Minor Point ...etc) "...and in the Theravadan tradition I happened to be involved with at the time, would use the device of 'noting' the breath to involve the mind in the attention to breathing. One would 'note' gently with the mind 'rising' and 'falling' with the in and out breath, if the place of following the breath were the 'belly'. It was also possible to note breathing out and breathing in at the nostrils or with other locations of the breath. One would follow the attention and see where it went, if it departed from the breath and note what it did, such as 'thinking', 'imagining', 'feeling discomfort'; whatever the object of attention was. The noting was a gross method for sort of marking one's place and one would hopefully go beyond this to discern the exact sensation or thought or movement of the breath to the extent possible." Even though it's told that noting is a wonderfull tool, but while noting, aren't we involving our mental faculties ?ie, labelling as "thinking", or "imagining", etc. ? this process thus involves recollection. In that view, how is it different from thinking ? only that one knows that one is thinking. Doesn't this also increase one's feeling of doership or ego sense ? With Metta, Krishnan. PS : As I understand very little of Abhidhamma, I request all who are kind enough to clarify this doubt using minimum of Abhidhamma. 15418 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Problem Of The Greater Mind Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and all) - > > A bit more about nibbana. I found a (possibly) interesting item > at the > web site http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/panadi10.htm, where nibbana > is > described as an unmanifestive consciousness: > > ************************************************** > In the Theravada Canon there are references to assert that Nibbana is > the > consciousness liberated from all worldly objects and thoughts, as is > stated > in the Dighanikaya. "Nibbanam-Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato > pabbam" - > Nibbana is the consciousness that has no sign perceptible to the senses > and > it is immeasurable, purest and a state wherein all the connection with > elements cease, leaving no trace (assesam uparujjhati). (D.i. 223). > *************************************************** "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of > nothingness, .................... S: I may not have made it clear, that in the Masefield translation and Com notes which I’m using, base is used instead of dimension (as here) in ‘There is, monks,that base’ (tadayatanam) ******************** (p.1012 Udana com): “...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says ‘Wherein there is neither earth, nor water’ and so on so as to indicate its own nature via an elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations (sankhara), so are all cvonditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is that of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, nor the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), ‘Nor that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception’.” ******************** In other words, as I understand ‘endless space.....non-perception’, these lines are referring to the arupa planes where there are already an absence of the elements and all rupas. They are referred to here to indicate that even so, all ‘states belonging’ to these planes (i.e. all conditioned realities) are also absent. END EARLIER POST (1) ***** Howard, I also had some discussion with Anders this time last year on the use of vi~n~naana.m and thanks to Escribe’s search function, I just found this very easily: ***** QUOTE earlier post (Both S and Sarah are me I think;-)) > 'The intellect of Arahatship, the invisible, the endless, > accessible from every side[23] > 'Where is it that earth, water, fire, and wind,...’ > > ************************************************ S: With regard to the MN 49 (24-26) passage you quoted: Sarah: >> B.Bodhi translates the passage as: > > 'the consciousness that makes no showing, > > And in becoming about to disbecome, > > Not claiming being with respect to all: > > that is not partaken of by the earthness of earth etc Maj NIk, 49, The Invitation of a Brahma,24-26 -------------------------------- S: The word 'consciousness' is translated from 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to be understood as 'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not consciousness according to the Pali com. as explained to me. As I mentioned, BB also added in his notes (513). , Sarah: >>"MA takes > >the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the > >sense that "it can be cognized" '. ----------------------------------- S: Perhaps another translation of the first line could be: 'Cognizable (vi~n~naa.na.m), invisible (anidassana.m), shinining in all directions (ananta.m sabbatopabha)' END EARLIER POST (2) ***** The translation work here was Jim’s. Suan also wrote a useful post and translation along these lines but with far more detail (Suan, perhaps you can repost it or a link if you can find it easily....it didn’t show up on my search just now). Sarah ====== 15419 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 3:50am Subject: Re: Meditation and Satipatthana --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: >L: I would be interested in reading what you and Sarah and Jon and Nina and Robert K (or any other of A. Sujin's students) think is the best way to practice satipatthana. _________________ Dear Larry, Perhaps when we think about practice of satipatthana we are already in the realm of looking for methods and techniques that we think enhance or lead to satipatthana. There may be already the idea of me doing something to get somewhere; the same motivating factors that have been with us throughout samsara that have got us good things and bad; but that won't, I suspect, lead out of samsara because they are tainted with self view. If one has enough patience and dedication one can learn to concentrate; to become conscious of subtle sensations, of thoughts, of movements, of tastes, feelings. This may be useful but it depends on the type of citta that experiences these dhammas as to whether it is really satipatthana - the test, I believe, is whether the moment is clung to, such as a subtle wanting to understand or experience; or whether the moment is known, perhaps wordlessly, as just an insignificant dhamma - not me or mine. With effort and the right practice, we can become the 'Meditator" or the "Abhidhamma expert" or the "Calm person" because these seem desirable and have the look of progress - but they too may be varied shapes of the Paticcasamuppada(dependent origination). Think of seeing. It occurs almost an infinite number of times just in one day. Yet every moment of seeing arises because of very complex conditions - no one can make it arise, but if the conditions are there it must arise. We take it for granted but it is at least as amazing that seeing should arise as that satipatthana should arise. From this perspective, then, can you really tell someone how to have satipatthana; it is like trying to explain to someone how to see. If they good eyes (conditioned by kamma and other conditions) then they must see; but if they are without eyes.... If you have time you might like to read over these edited letters I wrote to an American writer a few years ago. http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html Robert 15420 From: Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Mon Sep 2, 2002 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Never mind the opinion(s). What is the Dhamma knowledge and experience you have to share. I am always awed by your profound sharing. I do not ascribe to, not do I subscribe to the Dhamma ever being opinion or opinionated. Do you think this is Right View/Understanding? Metta, VBD ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 9/2/02 8:12:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > k: As what you said that one's predispositions depend > > on ones factor, that is why I am incline to discourage > > pple to write their own opinion even if one best shot > > rather than facts from the sutta and commentaries in > > well read or any publication. It could lead to > > distortion of the truth. Opinion should be confined > > to our own consumption or healthy discussion confining > > to ones circle of friends and let it be known that is > > our own opinion esp during this age of the dhamma. > > > > > > kind rgds > > Ong KC > > > ========================== > I understand your point. I generally make it a point to indicate that > what is only my opinion is, indeed, just that. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > 15421 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Time for a change (a long post) Hi, Stephen - In a message dated 9/3/02 4:46:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > Hello Howard, > I have this book and will be glad to loan it to you if the copyright thing > is > seen as a problem. I had great difficulty reading it, never getting beyond > the first 15 pages or so, do to the large number of untranslated Pali > footnotes (and one passage in the text, as I recall). Perhaps I can do a > bit > better now than a few years ago. > I'd be way glad to loan it if it came back with translations! > metta, stephen > > ============================== Thank you! That is very kind of you. I guess I'll wait to see what, if anything, Rob is able to find out. If there is an objection to making and distributing copies, then I will sure take you up on your kind offer! (But you can bet that it will *not* come back with translations of the Pali! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15422 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 9:24am Subject: McYoga from http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,42783,00.html Yogis Behaving Badly For millennia, the intricate techniques of yoga were passed down from teacher to student in a sacred exchange. But today, in the booming yoga industry, it's (downward-facing) dog-eat-dog. By Paul Keegan, September 2002 Issue You can't take it anymore. The greed, corruption, and selfishness of the business world have broken your spirit. You need inner peace. Everyone's walking around with a yoga mat these days, so you fly to Los Angeles, yoga capital of America, hoping for a little enlightenment: a quiet candlelit room, some gentle stretching, the chanting of mantras, a sage Indian guru dispensing ancient truths. But when you arrive at one of the most popular yoga centers in the country -- the Bikram Yoga College of India in Beverly Hills -- it's a giant mirrored studio crammed with more than 100 buff and sweaty devotees of the resident guru, Bikram Choudhury, a short Indian fellow sitting on a raised-platform throne wearing nothing but a black Speedo swimsuit and a diamond-studded wristwatch. Power trips, cutthroat competition, and sex scandals? Tell us about your yoga controversy. "Inhale!" cries your new master. Soon you're lying on your stomach, grasping your ankles behind you, and swaying like a rocking horse, trying to hold the Bow Pose. "Exhale!" The heat is cranked up to 105 degrees -- designed to turn your muscles into Silly Putty -- and the sweat's flying. For the next 90 minutes, the closest you get to God is praying for this torture to stop. Then, lying in the Corpse Pose when it's all over, you begin meditating: 100 people times $20 apiece = $2,000 for one class; 2,000 students a week = $2 million per year. Given that Bikram has franchised his "hot yoga" method in 600 studios nationwide, and that 600 Bikram teachers will pay $5,000 each for his 60-day crash course this year, that's another $3 million annually. Throw in lecture fees, yoga seminars, books, videos, and a line of clothing and accessories, and Bikram's empire adds up to at least $7 million, making him one of the biggest players in the burgeoning industry of Yoga Inc. After class you follow Bikram as he pads back to his office. A recognized yoga master at age 56 -- he won the National India Yoga Competition at age 11, the youngest ever -- he sits behind his big desk and begins lecturing about the sacred eight-limbed path to enlightenment outlined in the ancient Yoga Sutra. The first limb is called "yama" and consists of five Sanskrit words that mean don't harm others, lie, steal, lust, or be greedy. You nod enthusiastically. This is exactly what America needs: a thriving new industry built not on unethical behavior and ruthless opportunism but rather on timeless humanitarian ideals. Nobody knows how big the yoga market is, but with an estimated 18 million practitioners in the United States today -- mostly affluent baby boomers who drive the wider $230 billion market in healthy, environmentally friendly products -- it surely ranks in the hundreds of millions. But the business model that supports it must, by definition, defy the rapacious ethos of our era, based as it is on a 5,000-year-old philosophy of selfless devotion to helping others achieve inner peace. Excited by this prospect, you ask Bikram about some other forms of hatha yoga you might want to try -- ashtanga, iyengar, jivamukti -- but he scowls at your temerity. "Nobody does hatha yoga in America except me!" he bellows, offering as proof his celebrity students, ranging from George Harrison in 1969 to Madonna and Michael Jackson. "All of them are my students! All of them! ALL OF THEM! My name is Guru of the Stars." Later on, Bikram brags about his mansion with servants in Beverly Hills and his 30 classic cars, from Rolls-Royces to Bentleys. He also claims to have cured every disease known to humankind and compares himself to Jesus Christ and Buddha. Requiring neither food nor sleep, he says, "I'm beyond Superman." When you ask how he can make such wild statements, he answers, "Because I have balls like atom bombs, two of them, 100 megatons each. Nobody fucks with me." Perhaps. But it sounds more like Bikram has let this guru stuff go to his head. Still, one megalomaniacal yogi, you solemnly vow, will not derail your search for the pious new business model of Yoga Inc., surely in abundant evidence everywhere else. Power trips, cutthroat competition, and sex scandals? Tell us about your yoga controversy. Yoga Yama 1: Ahimsa Don't Harm Others Yoga literally means "union with God" and encourages a divine harmony with all things. Which raises an intriguing question: How do the biggest players in the yoga business reconcile ahimsa -- that one's actions should never harm others -- with the capitalist principle that one should always try to squash the competition like a bug? In short, not very well. Resentment has been brewing in recent years over what some yogis consider thuggish behavior by Yoga Journal magazine, the powerful nexus for the industry. Much of the bad karma flows toward Yoga Journal's conference business. The Berkeley-based magazine pioneered the concept of a yoga conference back in 1995, ostensibly to bring thousands together to teach, practice, and meditate. Today, these one- to seven-day conferences draw more than 1,000 neophytes and longtime practitioners alike, who cough up as much as $850 apiece to bask in the saintly glow of star yogis like Rodney Yee. At five conferences a year, this adds up to some serious money, fully 30 percent of Yoga Journal's estimated $11 million in annual revenue. Growth like that is what has inspired the magazine to launch bold new marketing gambits like the "Yoga Cruise." In February, for the first time, a luxury liner full of people doing the sun salutation will sail to the Caribbean -- for as much as $2,600 per head. As the conference business has grown, so has the number of yoga entrepreneurs seeking opportunity in various regions of our stiff-necked nation. Three years ago yoga teacher Jonny Kest started the Midwest Yoga and Wellness Conference in Ann Arbor, Mich. -- only to discover how little ahimsa was being practiced back at Yoga Journal. First, Kest says, the magazine refused to run his ads. (It took an outcry from the yoga community, he says, to make it reverse its policy a few months later.) Now, he claims, Yoga Journal is trying to run him out of business entirely by holding a conference next spring within weeks of his annual event and within 50 miles of his planned venue near Chicago. "Yoga's not so big that you can have two major conferences in one area," Kest says glumly, noting that the magazine's marketing power and ability to attract celebrity yoga teachers could wipe him out. Why doesn't the magazine go into the vast areas that still don't have big conferences, he wonders, like the Northwest, the Northeast, or Toronto? "Yoga Journal is a monopoly," he sighs. "It's trying to do the Microsoft thing." Yoga Yama 2: Satya Don't Lie Yoga Journal behaving like Microsoft? The same magazine that publishes earnest articles like "Love Thine Enemy"? Impossible. But then again, Yoga Journal is no longer the sleepy little nonprofit it was in back in 1975 when it was launched by the California Yoga Teachers Association. In 1998 a former Citicorp investment banker named John Abbott bought the magazine and began transforming it into a slick glossy. In place of New Agey pieces about crystals and how to conquer fear with trapeze flying, Abbott began publishing articles about exotic yoga travel destinations and celebrity yogis like Madonna and Sting. He even signed up supermodel Christy Turlington as the magazine's editor at large. Power trips, cutthroat competition, and sex scandals? Tell us about your yoga controversy. Purists grumbled, but many in the yoga community give Yoga Journal credit -- not only for raising yoga's overall profile but for raising serious issues, like coping with injuries and the health benefits of yoga. The results have been impressive. Since Abbott took over, paid circulation has tripled from 90,000 to 275,000, ad revenue has skyrocketed while the rest of the magazine industry slumps, and Abbott says his publication will turn a profit this year for the first time in 27 years. Abbott, who has the bespectacled, balding look of a yoga-fit middle-age businessman, rebuts charges that his publication refused to run ads for competing conferences as "absolutely false." But Anne O'Brien, the director of the magazine's conference business before leaving a year ago, says Kest is right: Yoga Journal did, in fact, have a clear policy of not accepting ads from competing conferences, until complaints came pouring in. (She applauds the magazine, however, for reversing the policy, calling it "the right decision in the best interests of yoga.") As for why Yoga Journal decided to hold its conference so close to Kest's event, Abbott chalks it up to pure coincidence. Plans for a Chicago-area conference began two years ago, he says -- though O'Brien says Yoga Journal had never discussed it as of last August, when she left -- so he didn't know about the Midwest Yoga and Wellness Conference, which drew 850 attendees last spring. Abbott denies he's trying to wipe out his competitors, but sources say that two years ago the magazine hired a consultant who advised him to do exactly that by targeting markets all over North America that already host yoga conferences. "I don't believe so," Abbott says when asked if that's true. "Maybe things are said over a beer ..." There's another reason, actually, for Abbott's reticence. While most executives love to jaw about going mano a mano with their competitors, such talk is verboten within the yoga industry because it violates ahimsa -- even for Abbott, who confesses that he got into yoga not for its spiritual dimensions but to rehab a pulled hamstring. "It would bode poorly for any person trying to grind others under to adopt business practices that are harming," he says. "In this space, if you're viewed as doing that, a lot of adherents will run away. If you practice in a crass way, a predatory way, you won't be successful." Yoga Yama 3: Asteya Don't Steal "Be successful" is the new mantra of the yoga universe, which has become so competitive that trying to crack the big leagues is far more difficult than it was even a few years ago. But how do yogis in our covetous culture separate themselves from the pack without violating asteya, the yama that strictly forbids stealing? For millennia, the intricate techniques of yoga were passed down freely from teacher to student. Today they form a collection of highly marketable intellectual properties -- a phenomenon that has only encouraged some rather unenlightened behavior. Power trips, cutthroat competition, and sex scandals? Tell us about your yoga controversy. Bikram says there has been so much stealing of his "hot yoga" techniques during the last few years that he had to spend $500,000 in January for a lawyer to trademark his sequence of 26 asanas, or yoga poses, as well as his word-for-word monologues describing how to do them. Thus yoga, the franchise, was born. "People were doing illegal things," Bikram growls. "I had to stop them." At Jivamukti in New York City -- the downtown studio with 2,000 students per week and a website that lists 51 celebrity clients, from Steve Martin to Monica Lewinsky -- owner David Life complains that several former teachers have set up shop nearby, offering the same method he painstakingly developed with co-owner Sharon Gannon during the last 17 years. "They're not calling themselves Jivamukti, but the staff is almost 100 percent certified through our training program," Life says, adding that he might consider taking action if they start using the word Jivamukti -- which, naturally, the couple has trademarked. Yoga teachers respond that big schools like Jivamukti and Yoga Works in Los Angeles don't pay them nearly enough -- $25 per class with 10 students, plus $2.50 for each additional student the teacher attracts, is not unusual -- despite having revenue of well over $1 million per year. Such schools make the situation worse, they say, by requiring teachers to sign contracts that prohibit them from teaching at other schools within a wide geographical radius. "Most teachers simply want to share it, to give the gift of yoga," says Mark Stephens, who recently opened the L.A. Yoga Center in Westwood. "Schools shouldn't have contracts preventing them from doing that." Yoga scholars say these clashes are the inevitable result of trying to sell a spiritual experience that shouldn't be marketed in the first place. But that hasn't slowed the mad dash to own a slice of divinity: When Stephens started his business, he was amazed to find that nearly every sacred yoga word or phrase had been trademarked. The latest: A New York company selling "perfumes and colognes and essential oils for personal use" has applied for a trademark for "shanti," the ancient Sanskrit word for peace. Yoga Yama 4: Brahmacharya Don't Lust As word has spread in recent years about the wonders yoga can do for your sex life -- Sting has waxed eloquent on the subject in interviews -- the reaction is predictable: People start showing up for classes looking for some action, especially from the exquisitely toned teachers. This has become enough of an issue that the California Yoga Teachers Association has established a code of ethics that flatly states, "All forms of sexual behavior or harassment with students are unethical, even when a student invites or consents to such behavior [or] involvement." But, of course, it still happens. And now Rodney Yee, the man Time magazine called the "stud muffin" of yoga, is being sued by a former teacher at Yee's studio in Oakland, Calif. The teacher claims that Yee refused to let her teach there after she confronted him about his alleged sexual affairs with students. In May, after the lawsuit was filed, one of Yee's former students, Athena Pappas, released a statement saying that when her affair with him began, she was "vulnerable and sought his help as my teacher." Another former student has also said publicly that she felt manipulated in her sexual relationship with Yee. The fact that Yee has appeared everywhere from People to Yoga Journal, preaching about how yoga has helped his marriage and family life with three children, hasn't done much for his credibility while the saga drags on. Yee was on a teaching tour of Indonesia and couldn't be reached for comment, but his lawyer, Sanford Margolin, calls the lawsuit "much ado about nothing." Power trips, cutthroat competition, and sex scandals? Tell us about your yoga controversy. Yee's sex scandal is hardly the first to hit the yoga elite. In 1994, Amrit Desai of the Kripalu Center for Yoga and Health in Lennox, Mass., resigned after admitting that he'd had affairs with three female followers -- an ironic development, given that he'd made celibacy a cornerstone of his teaching. And in 1997, the Himalayan Institute of Honesdale, Pa., lost a $1.9 million judgment after a woman charged that its spiritual leader, Swami Rama, sexually assaulted her while she was a student there. But are the gurus, in fact, the ones being victimized? The Speedo-clad Bikram certainly thinks so. Defending the behavior of Yee and Desai, Bikram says he himself was actually blackmailed several times into having sex with students. "What happens when they say they will commit suicide unless you sleep with them?" he says. "What am I supposed to do? Sometimes having an affair is the only way to save someone's life." Yoga Yama 5: Aparigraha Don't Be Greedy The final yama, aparigraha, has been trampled so many times it's impossible to keep count. Clearly, the world of big-time yoga in America is undergoing a profound crisis but won't admit it. The most influential players, like Yoga Journal -- well positioned to monitor ethical lapses -- are also the worst offenders. The small operators are terrified of the powerful -- and are trying to let go of their anger, as the practice suggests -- so nobody challenges the unscrupulous behavior that everyone knows takes place. "Yoga has become cutthroat, Mafia-like," says Thom Birch, a prominent teacher on the yoga conference circuit before he recently quit in disgust. "Many of these people are the biggest thieves, bullies, and sex addicts -- all of it under this veil of spirituality." Needing inner peace more than ever, you take off your shoes and enter a little studio on Manhattan's East Side. The Dharma Yoga Center, quietly run since the 1960s by a respected yogi named Sri Dharma Mittra, is just what you've been looking for all along: a small room with carpet and dim lighting, chants of Om-m-m-m, and a few people in baggy sweatsuits moving through their poses. Later, lying again in the Corpse Pose, enlightenment dawns: There are thousands of devoted teachers like Dharma Mittra out there. You just don't hear about them because they're not driven by riches or fame. To them yoga is not a business at all, but a service through which they simply provide themselves with life's necessities -- the very definition of aparigraha.This was the idea behind Swami Vivekananda's historic visit to Chicago in 1893, when yoga first arrived in the United States. Rather than yoga changing America, however, the reverse is happening. Bikram recalls that when he started teaching in Los Angeles in the 1960s, he didn't charge for his classes. After all, that's how it was done in Calcutta, where he grew up. "In India, rich people built yoga schools," he says. "Here, nobody builds anything. So how long can I teach yoga for free?" So Bikram built an empire, not caring a whit that his flamboyant display of wealth and aggressive business tactics made him an embarrassment to the greater yoga community. Because he knows that Yoga Inc. has nothing to do with yamas. "I learned that when you are in Rome, you must do as the Romans do," he says, his diamond-studded wristwatch flashing in the brilliant L.A. sunshine streaming through his window. "Hey, America is a beautiful country." 15423 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Problem Of The Greater Mind Hi, Sarah - Thanks for your kind reply. Most of it calls for no further comment from me. I'll just make a couple points. One of these is that I certainly do not claim that nibbana is a kind of rupa, but only that should it have no cognitive aspect whatsoever, then it would seem to have more in common with rupas than with cittas and cetasikas. Another comment is with respect to your statement "Maybe it’s easiest to just consider nibbana as nama by default or to say realities consist of cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana if that helps." Making nibbana a category unto itself, with only cittas and cetasikas being nama has some virtue, but that's not the standard. The standard, evidentally, is to include nibbana in the category of nama. Now, given the detailed precision of Abhidhamma, talking nibbana as nama by *default* seems quite anomalous. All the other namas have cognitive aspect, and that cognitive aspect is what distinguishes them from rupa. It seems straightforward to me that it is for the same reason that nibbana is nama. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/3/02 5:08:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > >...... Nyanatiloka writes "náma: (lit. > > 'name'): 'mind', mentality." > > If there is no cognitive aspect to nibbana, if it is not the > > nondual > > awareness of absence of objects and conditions, if it can be taken as > > object > > but is, itself, unknowing in addition to being unconditioned, then it > > sounds > > more like an "unconditioned rupa" than a nama. > .... > > Just reading from the latest extract from Perfections: > “The term by rúpas (rúpesu) means: by the four great Elements and the > derived rúpas that are dependent on theseâ€?. > > Or from Atthasalini, “one having material qualities (ruupii) refers to the > possession of material quality (ruupa.m)â€?. > > Maybe it’s easiest to just consider nibbana as nama by default or to say > realities consist of cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana if that helps. > ..... > > >Moreover, in this case, > > *entry* to final nibbana sounds more like annihilation to me than > > liberation > > - it sounds like a final turning off of the light. Instead of being the > > freeing of consciousness, the dropping off of all conditions, entry to > > nibbana inaugurates the ultimate avijja (non-seeing). Let me ask you - > > what > > is it you would find lovely in that? > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > I don’t find this phrase very lovely and somewhat confusing. Anpupadi-sesa > nibbana or parinibbana is nibbana with the cessation of the khandhas. > > “They who, by knowing this state uncompounded > have heart’s release, by cutting off the stream, > they who have reached the core of dhamma, glad > To end, such have abandoned all becomings.â€? (Itivuttaka, ch 11). > > Of course it is not appealing to those of us with so much lobha > accumulated. Only the arahats have eradicated all lobha for all becoming > (bhava). > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > But what is distinctive about namas? > > ------------------------------------------------------- > I don’t think I can add much more to the quote from Atthasalini (discussed > in more detail, PTS trans p500) without more research. There is also this > one other short quote if it helps: > > “In the mind and matter group, the term ‘mind’ (naama) is applied to > mental properties because ‘names’ once given to them are fixed, or because > they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend the mind unto > themselves. ‘Matter’ is that which changes its state or condition > (according to heat or cold, etc).â€? (p.69) > > >> --------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > The "levels of consiousness" are variations among the cittas, > > particularly as regards their intensity and the kinds of cetasikas > > associated, nothing more mysterious. Bhavanga cittas, for example, have > > low > > intensity, and are subliminal. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > I think ‘subliminal’ ‘subconscious’ are confusing terms to refer to > bhavanga cittas as discussed before. I agree we could talk about the > intensity of cetasikas - degrees of dosa, for example. I don’t think we > could talk about seeing or bhavanga citta as being less intense because > they are not accompanied by lobha or dosa though. > > > One other point I’d like to pick up (read: butt in) from your post to > Nina. She said “I better understand sound now, pleasant or unpleasant, > hearing, aversion on account of it.â€? You replied that “this is theoretical > understanding, understanding via the intellect. It is not the > understanding that is freeing (though it *is* supportive of that > understanding).â€? > ..... > Of course, if we talk about these realities now, it is most probably just > theoretical understanding. However, at the moments hearing or aversion or > sound arise, there can be direct understanding of their characteristics > without any thinking or theorizing. Panna that directly knows realities > can arise anytime if there is clear comprehension. This understanding is > ‘freeing’ for just that moment, but of course no kilesa (defilements) will > be eradicated or 'freed' until panna is of the degree to realize nibbana > with the sotapatti magga (at stage of sotapanna). It just depends on > conditions at this moment what kind of understanding may arise. > > Hope I haven’t confused further;-) > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15424 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 1046 Hi, Krishnan (and Rob) - In a message dated 9/3/02 6:23:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, thedarc_knight@y... writes: > > Even though it's told that noting is a wonderfull > tool, > but while noting, aren't we involving our mental > faculties ?ie, labelling as "thinking", or > "imagining", etc. ? this process thus involves > recollection. In that view, how is it different from > thinking ? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are not alone in thinking this. Bhante Gunaratana also recommends against the labelling practice. I think, however, that at least at an early stage of practice the labelling can be useful, because it moves one's thoughts in an impersonal direction: One gets used to thinking "seeing" instead of "I am seeing", "odor" instead of "I smell something", or "plannng" instead of "I am planning". This serves to establish a habit of thinking impersonally instead of personally. But, I agree that, ultimately, labelling needs to be dropped in order for vipassana to be operative. ---------------------------------------------------- only that one knows that one is thinking.> > Doesn't this also increase one's feeling of doership > or ego sense ? > > With Metta, > Krishnan. > > PS : As I understand very little of Abhidhamma, I > request all who are kind enough to clarify this doubt > using minimum of Abhidhamma. > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15425 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 9:44am Subject: dukkha of craving, conceit, I and mine The three stages of computer ownership: "The computer has 256MB of RAM." "My computer has 256MB of RAM." "I have 256MB of RAM." (from netfunny.com) 15426 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Problem Of The Greater Mind Hi, Sarah - Thanks! With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/3/02 6:28:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and all) - > > > > A bit more about nibbana. I found a (possibly) interesting item > > at the > > web site http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/panadi10.htm, where nibbana > > is > > described as an unmanifestive consciousness: > > > > ************************************************** > > In the Theravada Canon there are references to assert that Nibbana is > > the > > consciousness liberated from all worldly objects and thoughts, as is > > stated > > in the Dighanikaya. "Nibbanam-Vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato > > pabbam" - > > Nibbana is the consciousness that has no sign perceptible to the senses > > and > > it is immeasurable, purest and a state wherein all the connection with > > elements cease, leaving no trace (assesam uparujjhati). (D.i. 223). > > > *************************************************** > > You may also find it useful to revisit the detailed discussions I had > quite a long time back with Ken O and Rob Ep on the Udana passages and > commentary passages - some saved under “Udanaâ€? in U.P. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > I’ll quote from one here, where although nibbana is not mentioned > specifically in the text, it is in the commentary notes and title: > > QUOTE from my earlier post > ======================= > Udana VIII.1 > > "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor > > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor > > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of > > nothingness, > .................... > > S: I may not have made it clear, that in the Masefield translation and Com > notes which I’m using, base is used instead of dimension (as here) in > > ‘There is, monks,that base’ (tadayatanam) > > ******************** > > (p.1012 Udana com): > > “...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its > highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says ‘Wherein there is > neither earth, nor water’ and so on so as to indicate its own nature via > an > elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. > > Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) > things, > since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all > formations > (sankhara), so are all cvonditioned things (not to be found) therein > either, > for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) > not > witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is > that > of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, > nor > the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind > element > whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the > four > great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any > becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) > form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of > forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of > any > of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), ‘Nor that > base > consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither > perception > nor non-perception’.â€? > > ******************** > > In other words, as I understand ‘endless space.....non-perception’, these > lines > are referring to the arupa planes where there are already an absence of > the > elements and all rupas. They are referred to here to indicate that even > so, all > ‘states belonging’ to these planes (i.e. all conditioned realities) are > also > absent. > END EARLIER POST (1) > ***** > > Howard, I also had some discussion with Anders this time last year on the > use of vi~n~naana.m and thanks to Escribe’s search function, I just found > this very easily: > ***** > QUOTE earlier post (Both S and Sarah are me I think;-)) > > > 'The intellect of Arahatship, the invisible, the endless, > > accessible from every side[23] > > 'Where is it that earth, water, fire, and wind,...’ > > > > > > ************************************************ > S: With regard to the MN 49 (24-26) passage you quoted: > > Sarah: >> B.Bodhi translates the passage as: > > > 'the consciousness that makes no showing, > > > And in becoming about to disbecome, > > > Not claiming being with respect to all: > > > that is not partaken of by the earthness of earth etc > Maj NIk, 49, The Invitation of a Brahma,24-26 > -------------------------------- > S: The word 'consciousness' is translated from 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to be > understood > as > 'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not consciousness according to the Pali > com. > as explained to me. As I mentioned, BB also added in his notes (513). , > > Sarah: >>"MA takes > > >the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in > the > > >sense that "it can be cognized" '. > ----------------------------------- > S: Perhaps another translation of the first line could be: > 'Cognizable (vi~n~naa.na.m), invisible (anidassana.m), shinining in all > directions (ananta.m sabbatopabha)' > END EARLIER POST (2) > ***** > > The translation work here was Jim’s. Suan also wrote a useful post and > translation along these lines but with far more detail (Suan, perhaps you > can repost it or a link if you can find it easily....it didn’t show up on > my search just now). > > Sarah > ====== > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dreams Dear Frank, thank you, I printed this out for Lodewijk (my husband), he wakes up overtired because of nightmares, every day. It is beyond control. The Dhamma is not a medicine for everything, but I handed him your post. You do have a sense of humor, I had to laugh so much: Well Frank, I appreciate your presence, I am glad your parents put you on this world, but they are not the real cause as you know. My nephew came with a little one and after an hour I almost started yelling, I lacked patience. op 02-09-2002 06:32 schreef frank kuan op fcckuan@y...: >> > Speaking of dreams, I had a nightmare a few nights ago > where I was getting murdered, but I was calm > throughout the murder, and woke up calmly afterwards. > My attitude throughout the dream was to not become to > wrapped up in the drama of identifying with self and > situations, and as a result I didn't really go through > any kind of anxiety or pain. > N: This also goes for real life. Are we not wrapped up in dramas? Identifying with self and situations? With appreciation, Nina. > > > > 15428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Larry and Kom, May I butt in? I find your dialogue most interestiung and very important, I appreciate it very much. There are so many points here, I shall touch on only a few. op 02-09-2002 04:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > L:"He knows how the arising of the non-arisen sense-desire comes to be; > he knows how the abandoning of the arisen sense-desire comes to be; and > he knows how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sense-desire > comes to be." N: this is about the four right efforts, very actual for daily life. When there is awareness and understanding of nama and rupa, they will reach accomplishment. L: "Herein, monks, a monk thinks, "Thus is material form;..." > > "Herein, monks, a monk knows the eye and visual forms and the fetter > that arises dependent on both..." N: this is all about satipatthana now. L: "Herein, monks, when the enlightenment-factor of mindfulness is present, > the monk knows, "The enlightenment-factor of mindfulness is in me,"" N: Satipatthana. In my series on anapanasati I shall deal more with the enlightenment factors. > "Herein, monks, a monk knows, "This is suffering," according to > reality..." > > K: How do you define "contemplation?" > > L: Conceptual cognition; not necessarily papanca but definitely vitakka > and vicara. All the examples above are more than naming, but not a lot > more. It isn't encyclopedic. > > "Naming" is how I interpret something like this: "Herein, monks, a monk > knows the consciousness with lust, as with lust...". I think several > meditation masters teach that the proper way to deal with this is to > "note". I'm calling it naming. It is more than simply paying attention > to what is happening or witnessing. It is a little nugget of cognition; > although it is often mechanical and not so cognitive. N: I personally believe that it is highly cognitive, it is panna. This is dukkha...etc., well, that is the realization of the four noble Truths. We often read this phrase in the suttas. L (snip) That's why I think the study of abidhamma without any meditation > discipline _could_ accomplish samma sati. N: Study of Abhidhamma without any meditation: again, what do people mean by meditation. I would say, just as Kom, study without mindfulness of nama and rupa is not enough. L: What is A. > Sujin's view on satipatthana meditation? Why doesn't she teach it? Does > she teach a similar discipline for developing detachment? N: There should be development of satipatthana, that is, sati and panna, development of direct awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa, very, very gradually. There may be a lot of thinking involved, but there can also be a moment of noting a characteristic without thinking. This may be seldom, but in this way the difference between thinking and sati can be known. The development of satipatthana will lead first to detachment from self, and later on from all namas and rupas. But together with satipatthana all perfections should be developed. They support panna. When the perfections are being developed there is a degree of giving up of clinging: dana, sila, renunciation, patience, metta, and the other perfections. Best wishes from Nina. 15429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 5,Understanding, no 4 Perfections, Ch 5, Understanding, no 4; The perfection of paññå can be developed when we perform deeds of generosity, when we know to what purpose we give things away: to eliminate defilements. Someone who does not know that paññå is to be developed in order to realize the four noble Truths, gives without paññå, and he may expect a reward for his good deed. However, when someone gives things away with understanding of realities he knows that there are no beings, people or self; he knows that because of birth there will be suffering and trouble, life after life. If he has truly understood this, he knows that when there is an end to rebirth, there will an end to suffering. This means that there will not be any more seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or the experience of tangible object and all the sufferings caused by them. All kinds of kusala have to be developed to the degree of a perfection, so that the four noble Truths can be realized and defilements be eradicated. When someone has become a streamwinner, sotåpanna, he will not more than seven times be reborn and then attain arahatship. When sati and paññå have become keener and more refined, we shall see that we have many different kinds of defilements through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind, the whole day. It is extremely difficult to eradicate them completely. This can only be achieved by developing every kind of kusala to the degree of a perfection. If someone has right understanding of the significance of the perfections, he will, when he performs generous deeds, not aim for anything else but the realization of the noble Truths so that defilements can be completely eradicated. We can only know ourselves whether our kusala is a perfection or not. If someone has no understanding of the way to eradicate defilements, his generosity is not a perfection. Someone who has listened to the Dhamma and notices his defilements, may perform kusala of the degree of a perfection, but it all depends on the strenghth of his paññå. Some people who have just begun to listen to the Dhamma say that they do not need to attain nibbåna, and that they do not need to be a ³streamwinner², sotåpanna, who will not be reborn more than seven times. They want to be reborn more than seven times. Thus, it is evident that in their case paññå of the level of listening is still weak. For the development of the perfections it is necessary that paññå clearly sees the benefit of developing them, be it the perfection of generosity, of síla, of renunciation or any of the other perfections. Thus, it all depends on the degree of paññå to what extent the perfections can be developed. We may not have understood that the defilements and all dukkha, suffering, which arise in this life are in ourselves, that is, the nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas we take for me, for self. The true cessation of dukkha is that nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma do not have to be reborn. 15430 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 9/3/02 7:46:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vinmardeb@e... writes: > > Never mind the opinion(s). What is the Dhamma knowledge and experience you > have to share. I am always awed by your profound sharing. > > I do not ascribe to, not do I subscribe to the Dhamma ever being opinion or > opinionated. > > Do you think this is Right View/Understanding? > > Metta, > > VBD > =============================== It's good to hear from you, Bhante. I'm not completely clear on what you are asking. Do I think *what* is Right View/Understanding? Ken's statement? Well, as far as that is concerned, I think I used the term 'opinion' where, perhaps, I would better have used the word 'understanding' or 'interpretation'. When a position is mere opinion, I do think it would be best either not communicated or, at least, clearly labelled as "opinion". However, there is nothing wrong, as I see it, to try to communicate ones *understanding* of the Dhamma, especially as one has come to see it through following the practice laid out by the Buddha. Now everything we worldlings think and do is influenced by predisposition, by craving, and by aversion, and this includes our understanding of the Dhamma. But if we restrict ourselves on that account to only quoting chapter and verse without benefit of our own understanding it would not be adequate as I see it. We are all trying to grasp the Buddha's Dhamma and make it the core of our life, and sharing our understanding of it, both theory and practice, is beneficial so long as we apply mindfulness and clear comprehension in the process. With metta, Howard > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) > > > > Hi, Ken - > > > > In a message dated 9/2/02 8:12:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > > > k: As what you said that one's predispositions depend > > > on ones factor, that is why I am incline to discourage > > > pple to write their own opinion even if one best shot > > > rather than facts from the sutta and commentaries in > > > well read or any publication. It could lead to > > > distortion of the truth. Opinion should be confined > > > to our own consumption or healthy discussion confining > > > to ones circle of friends and let it be known that is > > > our own opinion esp during this age of the dhamma. > > > > > > > > > kind rgds > > > Ong KC > > > > > ========================== > > I understand your point. I generally make it a point to indicate > that > > what is only my opinion is, indeed, just that. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15431 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 7:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dreams Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/3/02 1:00:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Frank, > thank you, I printed this out for Lodewijk (my husband), he wakes up > overtired because of nightmares, every day. It is beyond control. The > Dhamma > is not a medicine for everything, but I handed him your post. > ============================== I hope your husband manages to find a "quick fix". If not, there is a longer term procedure that might help, the cultivation of lucid dreaming, where one is aware during a dream that it *is* a dream. (It is a bringing of mindfulness into the dream state.) What is useful in this is, among other things, the ability to take some control over what occurs in the dream, to change things, to greet "monsters" with lovingkindness. It really can work, but it requires regular practice. I used to engage in it a bit, and it is quite amazing. (But I'm no expert at all.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15432 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 2:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Time for a change (a long post) Hi Howard, The link sent previously was to the publisher's on-line book store. If you penetrate to the "Philosophy" section: http://www.buddhistcc.com/bookshop/philosophy/index.html You can find this book available for purchase for US$8.00 (item #12). As the book can be easily ordered on-line (at a reaonable price), I can't see any reason for the publisher to allow me to photocopy it for you. I suggest that you borrow Stephen's copy and then decide if you want to order one for your permanent library. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Stephen - > > In a message dated 9/3/02 4:46:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, oreznoone@a... > writes: > > > > Hello Howard, > > I have this book and will be glad to loan it to you if the copyright thing > > is > > seen as a problem. I had great difficulty reading it, never getting beyond > > the first 15 pages or so, do to the large number of untranslated Pali > > footnotes (and one passage in the text, as I recall). Perhaps I can do a > > bit > > better now than a few years ago. > > I'd be way glad to loan it if it came back with translations! > > metta, stephen > > > > > ============================== > Thank you! That is very kind of you. I guess I'll wait to see what, if > anything, Rob is able to find out. If there is an objection to making and > distributing copies, then I will sure take you up on your kind offer! (But > you can bet that it will *not* come back with translations of the Pali! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard 15433 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Time for a change (a long post) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/3/02 5:40:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > The link sent previously was to the publisher's on-line book store. > If you penetrate to the "Philosophy" section: > > http://www.buddhistcc.com/bookshop/philosophy/index.html > > You can find this book available for purchase for US$8.00 (item #12). > > As the book can be easily ordered on-line (at a reaonable price), I > can't see any reason for the publisher to allow me to photocopy it > for you. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That certainly seems correct. Thank you for checking. ----------------------------------------------------- > > I suggest that you borrow Stephen's copy and then decide if you want > to order one for your permanent library. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, or perhaps I'll just order it. (I'll want to really go over the material slowly.) ------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > =========================== With metta and thanks, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15434 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 4:22pm Subject: ADL ch. 23 (2) http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Abhidhamma In Daily Life Chapter 23 (1) What is right understanding? The answer is: seeing nåma and rúpa as they are: impermanent, dukkha and non-self. Right understanding can be developed. When we still have wrong view, we take realities for self: we take seeing for self, we take visible object for self, we take feeling for self, we take saññå (remembrance or ``perception´´) for self, we take thinking for self, we take defilements for self, we also take good qualities such as mindfulness and wisdom for self. In being mindful of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa which appear, the wrong view of self can be eliminated; then there will be right understanding. So long as one has not become a sotåpanna one may deviate from the right Path, there can be wrong practice. There is wrong practice when, for example, one thinks that there should be awareness only of particular kinds of nåma and rúpa, instead of being aware of whatever kind of nåma or rúpa appears. People may for example believe that lobha, dosa and moha should not or cannot be objects of mindfulness. However, akusala cittas are realities which arise because of their appropriate conditions, they are part of one's daily life. If one selects the objects of awareness, one will continue to cling to a concept of self who could exert control over one's life. Some people believe that vipassanå can only be developed when sitting in a quiet place, but then they set rules for the practice, and thus, they will not be able to see that mindfulness too is anattå. The sotåpanna has, apart from ditthi, also eradicated other defilements. He has eradicated doubt or vicikicchå. Doubt is classified as one of the ``hindrances´´; it prevents us from performing kusala. We may doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, about the right practice. The sotåpanna has no more doubt. Another akusala cetasika, eradicated by the sotåpanna, is stinginess, macchariya. The Visuddhimagga (XXII, 52) mentions five kinds of avarice: The kinds of avarice are the five, namely, avarice about dwellings, families, gain, Dhamma and praise, which occur as inability to bear sharing with others any of these things beginning with dwellings. The Atthasåliní (Expositor, Book II, part II, chapter II, 374, 375) gives an explanation of these five kinds of avarice concerning the monk's dwelling-place, the family he is used to visiting in order to receive the four requisites (robes, food, shelter and medicines), the four requisites themselves (mentioned as ``gain´´), knowledge of the Dhamma and praise (concerning personal beauty or virtues). It is explained that there is stinginess if one does not want to share any of these things with others. However, there is no stinginess if one does not want to share these things with someone who is a bad person or someone who would abuse these things. For instance, if one does not teach Dhamma to someone who will abuse Dhamma, there is no stinginess as to Dhamma. Thus we see that the eradication of stinginess does not mean sharing everything one has with anybody. The sotåpanna has eradicated stinginess; the five kinds of stinginess just mentioned do not arise anymore. Furthermore, the sotåpanna has eradicated envy, isså. Envy can arise with dosa-múla-citta (citta rooted in aversion). The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 172) states concerning envy: Envying is envy. It has the characteristic of being jealous of others' success. Its function is to be dissatisfied with that. It is manifested as averseness from that. Its proximate cause is another's success... The sotåpanna is an ariyan, a ``noble person´´, although not all defilements are eradicated by him. He is an ariyan, because at the moment of enlightenment, when the magga-citta arose, he became a different person; he is no longer a ``worldling´´, puthujjana. There are no more latent tendencies of wrong view, ditthi, and doubt, vicikicchå, accumulated in the citta, and there are no more inclinations to stinginess, macchariya, or envy, isså. What is a latent tendency? When we desire something we have lobha. When the lobha-múla-cittas have fallen away, there are other kinds of citta which are not accompanied by lobha. However, the lobha which arose before has been accumulated, it remains latent. When there are conditions for its arising, it can arise again with the akusala citta. Latent tendencies are accumulated in every citta, even in the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) which does not experience an object through one of the sense-doors or the mind-door. The question may occur whether the latent tendency of ditthi is eradicated gradually or all at once. The answer is that in the course of the development of right understanding ditthi is gradually eliminated until all latent tendencies are eradicated at the attainment of enlightenment. One cannot attain enlightenment without having cultivated the right conditions. We see that in the Buddha's time some people could attain enlightenment quickly, even during a discourse; some could attain enlightenment after a more detailed explanation of the truth, whereas others had to develop the eightfold Path for a longer time before they could attain enlightenment. It all depends on how much wisdom has already been accumulated, also during previous lives. As to the attainment of enlightenment in the present time, the right conditions have to be cultivated; enlightenment cannot occur all of a sudden. If there is awareness of all kinds of nåma and rúpa appearing in daily life, paññå can investigate their characteristics and in this way it can gradually develop. We cannot expect a great deal of sati and paññå in the beginning. However, each moment of right awareness is fruitful, because it can condition further moments of awareness and thus it can be accumulated. When paññå realizes a phenomenon which appears as nåma or rúpa, clinging to the concept of self is gradually eliminated, until finally all latent tendencies of ditthi are eradicated by the magga-citta (lokuttara kusala citta) of the sotåpanna. Then ditthi will never arise again. 15435 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1) Hi Sarah, I also feel like I need to re-read the whole thing. I would definitely like to continue with another study thread. Anything would be fine with me. Maybe it should be something on-line unless someone wants to type or scan something. Any ideas Christine? Larry 15436 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Dear Robert K. Thanks for your reply. Would it be fair to say that your position is that the practice of satipatthana or any other kusala activity is bound to be pervaded by defilements so it is better not to persue these activities? Larry 15437 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (2) Dear Nina, thanks very much for this (below). However, I'm still not clear on what A. Sujin is teaching with regard to satipatthana meditation. I get the feeling she thinks it is a waste of time or it would be better to contemplate the dhamma unencumbered by formalities of meditation technique or the concept of satipatthana meditation is ill conceived. Any light you could shed on this would be appreciated. I would like to see what Kom, Sarah, and Jon have to say on this as well. Get sort of a consensus view. thanks, Larry --------------- Nina wrote: L: What is A. Sujin's view on satipatthana meditation? Why doesn't she teach it? Does she teach a similar discipline for developing detachment? N: There should be development of satipatthana, that is, sati and panna, development of direct awareness and understanding of the characteristics of nama and rupa, very, very gradually. There may be a lot of thinking involved, but there can also be a moment of noting a characteristic without thinking. This may be seldom, but in this way the difference between thinking and sati can be known. The development of satipatthana will lead first to detachment from self, and later on from all namas and rupas. But together with satipatthana all perfections should be developed. They support panna. When the perfections are being developed there is a degree of giving up of clinging: dana, sila, renunciation, patience, metta, and the other perfections. Best wishes from Nina. 15438 From: Antony Woods Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 8:50pm Subject: Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Dear Howard and all, Here is an extract from Majjhima 95 about safeguarding the truth. "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn095.html with metta / Antony. 15439 From: Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 5:03pm Subject: Some Thoughts on the Satipatthana Suttas, Pa~n~natti, and Dhammas Hi, all - I've looked over the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and Satipatthana Sutta for purposes of comparing them and for analysis of the four foundations, and a few things occur to me. First of all, as far as comparison is concerned, these seem to be basically the identical teaching, but with extraneous material on the four noble truths etc being inserted in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. The common material is basically that of the Satipatthana Sutta. Now the more interesting part. As I looked over the first three foundations of mindfulness, especially the first, what I see being taken as objects of contemplation are primarily (referents of) pa~n~natti. There is the body, there is the breath, there are bodily postures, there are bodily organs, fluids, and tissues, there are decomposing corpses, and there are also feelings and states of mind. The fourth foundation, that of "dhammas", is described by Bhikkhu Bodhi in The Middle Length Sayings as contemplation of mind-objects. But as I look over what phenomena are included, it occurs to me that they are all cittas and cetasikas, they are all so called paramattha dhammas. It seems to me that the Satipatthana Sutta takes the student through the meditative process as follows: Begin by directing the mind to conventional objects (the referents of pa~n~natti) such as the the breath, bodily postures, bodily sensations and how they feel (pleasant, unpleasant, neutral), and states of mind (angry mind, happy mind, distracted mind etc) until one's concentration, mindfulness, energy, and investigation grow in power and balance to the point that one sees through the conventional objects to the elementary phenomena that compose them. Thus, by the time that one experientially reaches the fourth foundation, one is examining with wisdom the irreducible, direct elements of experience, and already has seen the conventional objects "dissolve", and then, as the enlightenment factors strengthen, one also sees through even these paramattha dhammas as dependently arisen, and thus su~n~na: anicca, dukkha, and anatta. The process begins by attending to what the ordinary worldling can normally be aware of, and continues to subtler and subtler levels of apprehension until the most subtle elements of experience are examined and seen through, leading the mind to freedom. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15440 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 10:33pm Subject: Moderator note - Frank & All Frank, In case you don't realise, your 'McYoga' post was real no-no for this list (and if a post has been sent in error, a quick follow-up note to that effect would be appreciated). Pls note the following from the Guidelines with regard to subject matter and length: ============================================== Posts We welcome any questions, answers, or comments, however light-hearted, relating to the Buddha's teachings as found in the texts of the Theravada tradition (including the Suttanta, Abhidhamma, Vinaya and the ancient commentaries). Good Practice ... Also, please avoid quoting large chunks of text that are available elsewhere on-line -- use links instead. ================================================ All, Please also keep in mind this para from the Guidelines with regard to trimming of posts: =============================================== For replies, delete any part of the original message that is not directly relevant to your reply. This saves the reader from having to scroll through large chunks of text, and saves archive space which may be limited in future. =============================================== Many thanks for your cooperation. As usual, any comments or queries on this should be made off-list only. Jon & Sarah ========== 15441 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moderator note - Frank & All --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Frank, > > In case you don't realise, your 'McYoga' post was > real no-no for this list > (and if a post has been sent > in error, a quick follow-up note to that effect > would be appreciated). > Actually, that post was made with complete mindfulness and full awareness of intention. Links to many excellent articles tend to go stale within 2 weeks, so I actually had to do EXTRA WORK to cut and paste from 5 pages on the website to ensure that everyone could see it. The subject matter was completely relevant to dhamma practice (subjective judgement of course), or else I would not have posted it. The moderators can run the list however they like, and I understand their point of view. My apologies. -fk 15442 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 23 (1) Hi Larry, Sarah and All, Have a look at 'Cetasikas' by Nina and see what you think. I'm happy to go along with any strong preference anyone has - there is nothing that I don't need to study and learn. Has anyone else got an idea of something they would really like the group to study together? http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, I also feel like I need to re-read the whole thing. I would > definitely like to continue with another study thread. Anything would be > fine with me. Maybe it should be something on-line unless someone wants > to type or scan something. Any ideas Christine? > > Larry 15443 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Larry (& Kom), In your posts to Kom, you mention (with regard to sections of the Satipatthana sutta) “overly contemplative and therefore necessarily conceptual”, “conceptual cognition”, “naming” and “panna is conceptual”. On the contrary, I understand all the sections in the sutta to be referring to paramattha dhammas and to the development of sati sampajanna (right awareness and understanding) of these objects. It will depend on accumulations which objects are objects at any given moment- no rule. The development of satipatthana is not conceptual, but the development of the Path. Let me quote from 2 past posts in support of these comments (apologies for being rather long for you): ***** QUOTE1. Sarah: When we were discussing the translations of the Satipatthana Sutta, Erik and I were discussing the limitations of ‘focussing’ and ‘comprehending’. Afterwards, I checked the detail in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and sub-commentary on the use of sati-sampajanna and quote below from Soma Thera’s translation p.34: ***** "Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. Clearly comprehending = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. Rightly = Correctly [aviparitam]. Entirely = By knowing in all ways [sabbakarapajananena]. Equally = By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparupari visesavaha-bhavena pavattiya]. Satima = "Mindful." Endowed with mindfulness that lays hold of the body as a subject of meditation, because this yogavacara (the man conversant with contemplative activity) contemplates with wisdom after laying hold of the object with mindfulness. There is nothing called contemplation without mindfulness. Therefore the Master said: "Mindfulness is necessary in all circumstances, O bhikkhus, I declare."[17] Necessary in all circumstances = Everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable. Or, that by the help of which the other proper Factors of Enlightenment [bojjhanga] are capable of being developed, is "necessary in all circumstances." Here, contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by mindfulness. To point out the things by the influence of which the meditation of the yogi prospers, is the purpose of the words, "Ardent, clearly comprehending, and mindful." " ***** I think the following quotes, (p.22) also help us to see importance of panna (wisdom) as being foremost, even when we are discussing satipatthana: ***** "Since there is nothing called spiritual development [bhavana] without laying hold on something whatsoever in material form, feeling, consciousness and mental objects [kaya vedana citta dhammesu kiñci dhammam anamasitva] they (Santati and Patacara) too overcame sorrow and lamentation just by this Way of Mindfulness. For the hearers [savaka], namely, the disciples of the Buddha, there is no attainment of the Noble Path [Ariya Magga] possible, except by practicing the subject of meditation [kammatthana] of the Four Truths [Catu Sacca]. Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom [pañña bhavana]. Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness." ***** Sarah: In the commentary notes under ‘kayanupassi’, we read more detail about the objects of sati-sampajanna, what read to be the paramattha dhammas (p33): ***** "In this body, apart from the above mentioned collection, there is seen no body, man, woman or anything else. Beings engender wrong belief, in many ways, in the bare groups of things mentioned above. Therefore the men of old said: What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free. What he sees = What man or woman he sees. Why, is there no seeing of man or a woman with the eye? There is. "I see a woman," "I see a man." -- these statements refer to what he sees by way of ordinary perception. That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [rupayatana] in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form [viparita gahavasena miccha parikappita rupatta]. Or the meaning is: the absence of perception which is called the seeing of primary and derived materiality, beginning with things such as the hair of the head, owing to non-cognizability of the collective nature of an object like a man or woman by eye-consciousness [kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam ditthi na hoti acakkhuviññana viññeyyatta]. What is seen that he does not properly see = He does not see, according to reality by the eye of wisdom, the sense-basis which exists, the collection of primary and derived materiality beginning with hair of the head and the like [yam rupayatanam kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam dittham tam pañña-cakkhuna bhutato na passati]. Not seeing properly he is shackled = Not seeing this body as it actually is, with the eye of wisdom, he thinks: "This is mine, this am I, this is my self," and is bound with the fetter of defilement [imam attabhavam yathabhutam paññacakkhuna apassanto etam mama esohamasmi eso me attati kilesa bandhanena bajjhati]." ***** Sarah: We sometimes discuss the value of the abhidhamma when reading suttas and the following commentary note to the Satipatthana Sutta is one example (amongst many far more detailed ones) of this, followed by a reference to ‘objects visual’ as requested;-) (p.41): ***** "Consciousness and mental objects, too, should be contemplated upon by way of the diversity of the division of object (arammana], dominance [adhipati], conascence [sahajata], plane [bhumi], causal action [kamma], result [vipaka], non-causative functional process [kriya], and so forth [adi], beginning with impermanence [aniccadinam anupassananam vesena] and by way of the division of consciousness that is with passion and so forth come down in the portion of analytical exposition [niddesavare agatasaragadi bhedañca vasena]. Or the divisions of object... non-causative functional process and so forth. Contemplation should be done by way of the division of the blue and so forth pertaining to the variety of objects visual and so forth [rupadi arammana nanattassa niladi tabbhedassa); ..." ***** END QUOTE 1 QUOTE 2. Jon The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the dhamma that is the moment of c