15800 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 19, 2002 11:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re:dukkha Dear Nina, You referred to my previous ramblings - > A recent quote from Nina (and K.Sujin), was; "Visible > object is just what appears through the eyes, that is > all." I'm wondering if that could be paraphrased as; > "Dukkha -- ultimate conditioned reality -- is just birth, > decay, death, etc., that is all." And you said; ------------- N: > I did not have this in mind, I wanted to stress something else. > --------------- K: You then gave a further explanation of the quotation which, I think, I followed reasonable well, and you added: ------------- N: > We should go step by step. We neglect to be aware of feeling, it is only a nama which feels. We are not aware of feeling, because we are immediately carried away by our pleasant or unpleasant feeling. These are conditions for being deluded by stories of people we like or dislike, keeping them in our thoughts endlessly. > ------------ K: How would you paraphrase the original quotation to make it apply to feeling? I'd have a go myself but I think I've done enough damage to it already. You conclude by asking: -------------- N: > What is your idea about this? > --------------- K: Well, I get the idea that what I said in my last message must have been horribly wrong and you are tactfully salvaging your quotation from the mess :-) It wouldn't be the first time that my theorising has led me in the wrong direction. I had the idea that the Buddha's explanation of the First Noble Truth could be read in the same way as your explanation of visible object (with some paraphrasing of course). Now, I'm wishing I had left that alone. Thank you for your additional explanations. Unfortunately, I don't have any profound ideas to add. I will gladly spend more time considering seeing and feeling, and less time theorizing :-) Kind regards Ken H 15801 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 0:37am Subject: Concepts & Realities in Plain English <2> Dear All, I mentioned that “It’s easy to comprehend that seeing is different from hearing or smelling at an intellectual level at least. It may be a little harder to comprehend that seeing is different from what is seen.” Even a small child can tell you that seeing and hearing are not the same. What a child does not know is that when we open our eyes, there is merely the visual experiencing or seeing of its object. What a child also cannot tell you is that there is only one kind of experiencing at a time. There cannot be seeing and hearing together. If we merely judge the truth by our own ignorant perception or apparent experience, we will take the illusion of these experiences occurring together --and also the illusion of it being oneself that does the experiencing -- for being the truth. In other words, we are very used to having ideas about life and reality and have held these ideas for a very long time - countless lifetimes in fact. So when we read that the Buddha encourages us to test out the truth according to experience, this doesn’t mean according to the illusory concepts and ideas with which we’re used to seeing the world in ignorance. What it means is that we need to know more about the actual phenomena, the kinds of consciousness -- like seeing -- which experience or cognize objects and the objects themselves -- like visible objects -- which are experienced and without which there cannot be any experiencing. When there is the idea of any other agent involved or object being cognized at this time, we can ask how they cognize or how they are known. For example, if we think there is a self that sees now, while we look at the computer, how does this self see? What is it that sees? Similarly, if we think that there is a computer seen, how is this experienced through the eyes or is it experienced another way? Slowly we begin to find out that much of what we take for consciousness and direct knowledge are in fact just thoughts or ideas or concepts. The reason it matters is because it is only by beginning to clear up these illusions that the truth about experience can be known. So aren’t these just more views? How can we know realities are not self? Isn’t it a kind of dualism to talk about seeing and visible objects? Are all concepts bad? ***** Sarah ===== 15802 From: Frank Kuan Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 7:11am Subject: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls I'm trying to understand something. I've noticed that people always seem to apologize or ask permission for butting into a an email conversation on a forum. I know in a real live conversation, it's considered rude and definitely annoying to have a one on one dialogue interrupted by someone. Etiquette in a live conversation calls for something like, "excuse me for interrupting..." But why on a group forum where people tend to be addressing more than one person anyway? And if you're going to apply real life etiquette in cyberspace, shouldn't you go all the way? For example: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jim, may I butt in? > There are three meanings of satipatthana: Shouldn't Nina have stopped at, "may I butt in", waited a few days for Jim to respond by email, "yes you may", or "absolutely not", before proceding to launch into a full post response? Isn't it quite presumptuous of Nina? Is this not a breach of etiquetee? On an email list, I've always operated under the assumption that the rules are slightly different. Since everyone on the list reads a "one on one" dialogue, it's not really "one to one". It's "one to all". As such, no prelude of the form "pardon me for interrupting" seems necessary. And yet, since everyone except me seems to employ this [unnecessary IMHO] etiquette, it makes me actually stop for a tiny infitessimal cheetah and question myself as to whether I'm acting like an obnoxious boor by constantly barging in on cyberspace conversations without the courteous warning. Maybe I need to conform? In fact, if I'm going to employ real world etiquette in cyberspace, maybe I shouldn't be typing this message in front of my computer while naked. After all, I wouldn't normally walk around a party like that. And maybe you all are just silly humans overdoing it with the polite thing. -fk note to moderators: suttas are actually just a skillful way of teaching abidhamma, physics and biochemistry is actually abidhamma, and when I post an article about netiquetee it's actually a skillful way of teaching abidhamma as well. And for extra insurance, I made a reference to cheetah mind moment in this post. So there! I'm on topic, you can't stop me. 15803 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 8:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls Dear Nina and Sarah, Thank-you for your replies. I would like to take the time to read them over carefully and think about how best to respond so it may be awhile before I get back to you on this matter. And yes, Nina, you or anyone else may butt in. Thanks for bringing up the three meanings of satipatthana which I have never done a thorough study of but was aware of them. The distinctions between the three still remain unclear to me. I find the first meaning interesting as it uses the term 'satigocara' (the domain of mindfulness). 'gocara' had come up for discussion in Niagara Falls regarding the term 'paramattha' which has an alternative meaning of something like 'the domain of ultimate '. I noticed that the Ven. Soma did not translate the section on the three meanings in his The Way of Mindfulness (at least in my edition), but ~Naa.namoli has a translation of a parallel passage in the Vibhanga commentary. I think it would be very good to do an in-depth study of the Pali original which is about a page long. Best wishes, Jim 15804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Realities in Plain English <1> Dear Sarah, very essential points and they are good for all of us to consider again and again. Just one remark, see below. op 19-09-2002 09:11 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > It’s easy to comprehend that seeing is different from hearing or smelling > at an intellectual level at least. It may be a little harder to comprehend > that seeing is different from what is seen. When we close our eyes, > nothing is seen. When we open our eyes, the objects which are seen, are > seen by visual experiencing or seeing. The visible objects and the > experiencing of them are quite different and have different qualities or > characteristics from each other. > > Again, when we talk now about ‘eyes’, ‘objects’, ‘consciousness’, we are > using concepts. Some of these concepts, however, represent what is acual > or real, even though at this moment, there may not be any direct knowledge > of the actual or real. > > Perhaps we can at least comprehend that the talking and thinking about > seeing or visible objects is not the same as the actual seeing or > experiencing of these objects. N: That is a very good remark! While we talk and think about seeing, we forget that there is seeing right now. The visible world could not appear through eyes if there were no citta which experiences it, seeing. It sounds simple, but do we really understand this? Mindfulness of the characteristics of seeing and visible object is indispensable, so that understanding can directly know them as they are. But this is another step that you will explain later on. Please continue with this. P.S. I liked very much your and Rob M's reports on the conversations in Hongkong. Best wishes from Nina. 15805 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 5,Wisdom, no. 10 Perfections, Ch 5, Wisdom, no. 10 We read further on in the Commentary to the Dasannaka Jataka: When the King had heard the words of the wise Åyura, he thought, ³I have said that I would give the queen to the son of the household priest, and so I have done what is very hard to do.² Hence his sorrow at heart became a little lighter, since he had done what was hard to do. The King wondered whether there was something else harder to do than saying, ³I shall give something to someone else². He reflected that speaking in such a way is difficult, but he wondered whether there was something else more difficult. Thereupon the King asked the wise Pukkusa (in the third stanza) whether there was anything else more difficult to do than saying that one would give something away. Thereupon the wise Pukkusa spoke, in order to solve this problem, the fourth stanza: ³People do not value words that are vainly spoken, and that are without effect. But when someone makes a promise and can decrease clinging, this is more difficult than swallowing a sword or merely promising something.² This passage deals with sincerity, with truthfulness pertaining to one¹s thinking and to the words one has spoken. Thus, someone may say that he shall give, but it is more difficult to truly give. When confidence in kusala, saddhå, arises, someone may well say that he shall give, but it may happen that he does not give. It is more difficult to act according to one¹s promise. When there is sincerity and truthfulness someone is able to follow up in action what he has promised. We read that the wise Pukkusa said: ³All other things are easy to do, King Mågadha, I have answered you.² The King, when he had heard this, considered, ³I first said, ŒI will give the queen to the priest¹s son,¹ and and then I did according to my word and gave her; surely I have done a difficult thing.² So his sorrow became lighter. We see that the King could give up attachment. He could take action in accordance with the words he had spoken. This is harder to do than swallowing a sword of thirtythree inches long. We read: Then it came to his mind: ³There is no one wiser than wise Senaka, I will ask this question of him. Senaka would be in his last life the Sammåsambuddha, the Exalted One. The King asked wise Senaka, ³What is harder to do than giving something away?² Wise Senaka, when he answered the King¹s question, spoke the sixth stanza: If a man should give a gift, whether small or great, in charity, Nor regret the giving afterwards, nor sorrow about it. Not having regret is harder than swallowing a sword. It is harder than saying that one will give, It is harder than giving what is dear to one, All other things are easier to do than this. King Magadha, I have answered you.² When the King had heard the words of the Bodhisatta, he reflected, ³When I gave the queen to the priest¹s son I had sorrow about this, and this is not proper. If the queen loved me she would not forsake her kingdom and flee away. But since she acted like this, of what use is it to have sorrow about her?² When the King reflected in this way all his sorrow disappeared as a drop of water falling off from a lotus leaf. At that moment he was cured of his sickness and became well and happy. He praised the Bodhisatta and spoke the last stanza: ³Wise Åyura and wise Pukkusa answered my questions. The answer of wise Senaka solved my problems completely, saying, Œwhen one gives something, one should not regret it afterwards.¹ ² The King who was delighted praised him and gave him an abundance of gifts. When the Buddha gave this Dhamma discourse, he explained the true Dhamma and finally told the story of this Jåtaka to a monk who wanted to leave the Order because he was tempted by his former wife. In a former life he was the King, and now he attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sotåpanna. The Buddha said that Mahå-Moggallåna was wise Åyura and Såriputta wise Pukkusa, and that he, the Tathågata, was wise Senaka. 15806 From: Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Jon, I have forgotten what exactly we were arguing about, but I re-read the satipatthana sutta and, for what it's worth, the only thing that looks like meditation is mindfulness of in and out breathing. Furthermore, there isn't anything about mindfulness of rupas in the abhidhamma sense in the mindfulness of body section. No sight, sound, taste, smell, or touch. So the whole thing is a bit of a mystery. Definitely needs more study. I guess what I meant by "formal" is"stiff." Go figure... Larry 15807 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 2:44pm Subject: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls Hello Frank, and All, Such blunt, no frills honesty ...Any Australian ancestors there? Scary, Frank, and you're getting closer geographically too :) I tend to agree with you that messages sent to a public list with hundreds of members become 'visible object of seeing' and should be meant for general consumption, and general reply. Members have the option of clicking on an individual's private email address if, for some reason, they wish it to be only a private conversation. (And, if so, why start off publicly). Sometimes I hope for a particular person to answer a post, when I know that person has knowledge in a particular area, or that I understand Dhamma more easily from the way they express their knowledge. But even in a face-to-face group conversation on a serious subject, one waits for an opportune moment and gives and receives visual clues as to the acceptable time to smoothly enter the conversation ... particularly if the interchange has been going on for some time between a couple of the group's members. As we can't give those visual body language clues, many persons feel it courteous to insert an initial sentence in an email instead. We are all the products of our culture, age group and conditioning. Courtesy is expressed very differently in different cultures, even if speaking the same 'root' language, as I know that you know. What is seen as the epitome of polite, kind, well-bred behaviour in one country can be regarded with embarrassment and even disdain as crass and insensitive by another culture, or as tedious and artificial and totally unnecessary. The newer cultures such as US and OZ tend to want to 'cut to the chase' and do away with what they see as unnecessary verbiage. That's just our conditioning, it doesn't make us any more right or sensible. At work (with 60 different ethnic groups) we must compulsorily complete multi-cultural training courses, but as these are fairly general, staff manage unintentionally to offend people on a daily basis. Traditions around gender of patient and professional, respect, who speaks and in what order, how much talking is necessary before bringing up the purpose of the interview, medical procedures, losing face, birth, death, food, eye contact, touching, humour ... and so on and on ad infinitum can cause grievous offense - and usually one doesn't even know as people are too polite to mention it. :) You are never an obnoxious boor Frank - I can always be sure to get honesty, common sense, and a pretty fair knowledge of the Dhamma from your posts. Just one thing though - typing on the computer naked at home is appropriate, but my advice would be not to try it in an Internet Cafe - 'different horses for different courses'? And please don't try ironing clothes that way either - one slip and the pile of rupa conventionally known as Frank would not be a happy chappy! :) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > I'm trying to understand something. I've noticed that > people always seem to apologize or ask permission for > butting into a an email conversation on a forum. I > know in a real live conversation, it's considered rude > and definitely annoying to have a one on one dialogue > interrupted by someone. Etiquette in a live > conversation calls for something like, "excuse me for > interrupting..." > > But why on a group forum where people tend to be > addressing more than one person anyway? > > And if you're going to apply real life etiquette in > cyberspace, shouldn't you go all the way? For example: > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Jim, may I butt in? > > There are three meanings of satipatthana: > > > Shouldn't Nina have stopped at, "may I butt in", > waited a few days for Jim to respond by email, "yes > you may", or "absolutely not", before proceding to > launch into a full post response? Isn't it quite > presumptuous of Nina? Is this not a breach of > etiquetee? > > On an email list, I've always operated under the > assumption that the rules are slightly different. > Since everyone on the list reads a "one on one" > dialogue, it's not really "one to one". It's "one to > all". As such, no prelude of the form "pardon me for > interrupting" seems necessary. > > And yet, since everyone except me seems to employ this > [unnecessary IMHO] etiquette, it makes me actually > stop for a tiny infitessimal cheetah and question > myself as to whether I'm acting like an obnoxious boor > by constantly barging in on cyberspace conversations > without the courteous warning. > > Maybe I need to conform? In fact, if I'm going to > employ real world etiquette in cyberspace, maybe I > shouldn't be typing this message in front of my > computer while naked. After all, I wouldn't normally > walk around a party like that. And maybe me! must be something I had from dinner> you all are > just silly humans overdoing it with the polite thing. > > -fk > > note to moderators: suttas are actually just a > skillful way of teaching abidhamma, physics and > biochemistry is actually abidhamma, and when I post an > article about netiquetee it's actually a skillful way > of teaching abidhamma as well. And for extra > insurance, I made a reference to cheetah mind moment > in this post. So there! I'm on topic, you can't stop > me. 15808 From: Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 2:57pm Subject: study thread Dear group, Since the correct understanding of the satipatthana sutta seems to be of interest and confusion to many here, why don't we take Soma Thera's trans. of the sutta and commentary, including the introduction and preface as our next study thread. If we are in agreement, it would also be helpful if additional materials pertaining to issues such as 'objects of satipatthana' etc. be introduced in the appropriate place by people who have views they think essential to the understanding of the sutta. In other words, if there are points not specifically covered in the sutta and commentary that someone thinks is essential or helpful in understanding satipatthana, that person should take the responsibility to provide short selections from a text for discussion. What's the view, yea or nay? More importantly, who will volunteer to post it in bite size pieces? Larry http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html 15809 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 3:50pm Subject: Re: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls Hi Frank, As usual you have me laughing and Christine's written an excellent reply (I doubt Frank's into ironing, though, Chris). Frank, I hope your computer room isn't overlooked by the neighbours as mine is, but then maybe that's half the fun;-) I think of the "may I butt in?" followed by the immediate butting in as being like the live "may I interrupt?" at a party, where nothing is private either....It's just an indication of courtesy and usually unnecessary as you say. I think of it as being like a 'half-way house' . It reminds me of one yoga teacher in California who always says "may I?" before touching or adjusting someone in a pose anyway. Some may fine it courteous, Others may find it over polite and even annoying. So it all comes down to checking those cheetahs again;-) Mostly when we use it on the list, we're just having fun and you're most welcome to butt in anytime on any thread without any niceties, Frank. As you suggest, the posts are written to everyone anyway. For my part, I rather appreciate Nina's and others' gestures like this one, but no reason for you or others to 'conform'. We know you're not into photo albums, SUVs (thanks Jon for the translation), or other indications of stunted spiritual progress, but you do have some clothes don't you, Frank??? We could always start a collection of cast-offs if not...... Sarah ===== 15810 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 4:53pm Subject: Re: Concepts & Realities in Plain English <1> Dear Sarah, and all, You ask: "How can the 'actual' be known?" Would this be when there is a reality appearing at one of the six doorways, and sati (right mindfulness) is mindful of that reality, and then panna (wisdom) directly penetrates and understands it? Not sure of the 'How'. I don't think it can be 'made' to happen, maybe it's a question of knowing the right conditions, or cultivating the conditions? But how would that differ from a self controlling? You also ask: "What about anatta? What does it matter?" Without 'anatta' (which I don't understand, but which I 'feel' is the truth) I would be on one of the sweet theistic spiritual paths. Surely if there is No Anatta, there is No Buddhism. Life would be much more comfortable (and familiar) with a soul and a Deity to give commands, comfort, grant favours, control things (rather erratically), and promise to 'fix' things (for true believers only) somewhere in the future ... There would be none of this having to take responsibility and do it all 'myself' - a God to praise and implore, a Devil to blame and avoid ..... In working with patients and relatives when there is birth and death, people tend to share deep feelings regarding their ultimate beliefs in life. Many are followers of the Christ, or followers of the Prophet, or followers of the Veda and have had very significant spiritual experiences (I wonder how can that be? why is it so?) that has convinced them - beyond any shadow of doubt - that their way is the only True Path. All of them had such unmovable certainty and unshakeable faith about their experience ... what existence is all about, and what the the culmination of all existence will be. Some of them had genuine and loving concern that another might be on the 'wrong path'. If one ever gets to the point of really 'knowing' that there is no self, no person, no one; that there is nothing 'personal' that continues; that each ever changing 'process' experiences uncontrollable conditioned realities playing out whatever seeming purposelessness it is that they play out (and, if, in the midst of all this uncontrollability, the entity has 'managed' to eradicate most or all defilements (and I wonder how that can be also)) - then the entity or 'process' achieves the prize of never being born again - a difficult, incomprehensible, and wonderful goal to achieve - so I am told. This prize that is the goal, the aim, the final attainment of all buddhist practice - this is Nibbana that is indescribable but continues endlessly to be the subject of intellectual speculation. (And haven't I just substituted the words 'entity' and 'process' for 'self' .... ?) Anatta matters to me, but I still find it difficult to understand, particularly regarding kamma, progress on the path and nibbana. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear All, > > In the Suttas, over and over again, the Buddha talks about the six > `worlds' experienced through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. If > we consider the first world now, the world of experience through the eyes, > while we are thinking about `eyes', `world' and `sight', there is > thinking about concepts and ideas. > > In other words, the idea of `eyes' and `sight' is not the same as what > occurs without any thinking and without any knowledge of Buddhism when we > open our eyes. > > When we open our eyes, what experiences the world through the eyes is > seeing or visual experiencing. We can talk about the nature or the > characteristic or particular quality of this kind of experiencing of the > world, but these are different terms or convenient ways of speaking to > help us understand what seeing really is. > > It's easy to comprehend that seeing is different from hearing or smelling > at an intellectual level at least. It may be a little harder to comprehend > that seeing is different from what is seen. When we close our eyes, > nothing is seen. When we open our eyes, the objects which are seen, are > seen by visual experiencing or seeing. The visible objects and the > experiencing of them are quite different and have different qualities or > characteristics from each other. > > Again, when we talk now about `eyes', `objects', `consciousness', we are > using concepts. Some of these concepts, however, represent what is acual > or real, even though at this moment, there may not be any direct knowledge > of the actual or real. > > Perhaps we can at least comprehend that the talking and thinking about > seeing or visible objects is not the same as the actual seeing or > experiencing of these objects. > > So how can the `actual' be known? How can the dhammas taught by the Buddha > be tested and proved? How about anatta? What does it matter? > ***** > This post follows a few comments (on and off list) about confusion with > regard to concepts & realities. I hope to continue with a few relatively > simple short notes like this one. Comments or objections welcome as > usual;-) > > Sarah > ===== 15811 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 9:59pm Subject: Re: study thread Hi Larry. I can't promise much, but I will try to read and respond to the thread. Best, Robert Ep. =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear group, > > Since the correct understanding of the satipatthana sutta seems to be of > interest and confusion to many here, why don't we take Soma Thera's > trans. of the sutta and commentary, including the introduction and > preface as our next study thread. If we are in agreement, it would also > be helpful if additional materials pertaining to issues such as 'objects > of satipatthana' etc. be introduced in the appropriate place by people > who have views they think essential to the understanding of the sutta. > In other words, if there are points not specifically covered in the > sutta and commentary that someone thinks is essential or helpful in > understanding satipatthana, that person should take the responsibility > to provide short selections from a text for discussion. > > What's the view, yea or nay? More importantly, who will volunteer to > post it in bite size pieces? > > Larry > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html 15812 From: Frank Kuan Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:07pm Subject: Re: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Such blunt, no frills honesty ...Any Australian > ancestors there? Not that I'm aware of. My parents and their ancestors are very well mannered and polite, unlike me. I just gotta be me :) > :) You are never an obnoxious boor Frank - I can > always be sure to > get honesty, common sense, and a pretty fair > knowledge of the Dhamma > from your posts. Thanks Chris. > Just one thing though - typing on > the computer > naked at home is appropriate, but my advice would be > not to try it in > an Internet Cafe - 'different horses for different > courses'? I've always been on the leading edge of casual dressing. This is just the logical conclusion. If our species is to evolve, people will eventually catch on and follow me lead. > And > please don't try ironing clothes that way either - > one slip and the > pile of rupa conventionally known as Frank would not > be a happy > chappy! :) > What's an iron? :) -fk 15813 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:11pm Subject: Re: Meeting up with Rob M <2> Hi Rob, Could you possibly explain how you downloaded all of the archives onto your hard Drive? Is there some command by which they all were loaded ino the appropriate files? When I save posts, I have to do a separate 'Save As' for each one, which results in pretty weird Netscape versions of each file, or else cut and paste into a document. If you prefer to reply off list, please email to me at epsteinrob@y.... Thanks, Robert Ep. ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > > Even more precious than any of the texts is the work that Rob M > has done > > to make a full back-up of the entire archives of DSG to date. He > will also > > continue to back up new archives. This means that in addition to > escribe, > > there is now a complete back-up with the same numbering for posts > > (relevant for Useful Post references for example) > > and we no longer need to live in fear of any yahoo or other > calamity > > losing all these. Rob, himself, is now able to use his back-up > system with > > a search function on the road without internet access as I > understand. > > I use all these files on my PC (more than 1000 files, each with 15 > messages) as reading material on long flights. I started with post > #1 (Tue, Dec 28 1999 8:15pm) "Welcome to Dhamma Study Group" and > have been reading sequentially. I've learned a lot and gained an > appreciation of areas in which I have a lot more to learn. It is > also fun to watch the interplay of personalities. > > This is really a win-win situation, thanks to the moderators and the > posters (frequent and "lurkers" included). > > Sarah and Jon, your efforts have touched a lot of people. Many of > them (such as the people in my class), you do not even know. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 15814 From: Frank Kuan Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:15pm Subject: Re: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls Hi Sarah, You and Chris both make eloquent arguments in favor of courtesy, even if it is redundant or unnecessary. Kind intentions (politeness/courtesy) never hurts. I'll stick to being a boor. dhamma insight -> politeness can not be properly appreciated unless people on the other end of the extreme like me run around causing mischief to provide a contrast. --- Sarah wrote: > We know you're not into photo albums, SUVs (thanks > Jon for the > translation), or other indications of stunted > spiritual progress, but you > do have some clothes don't you, Frank??? We could > always start a > collection of cast-offs if not...... > Unfortunately the paradise I live in is not completely enlightened. There are some designated beaches and areas where I'm free as a bird and my bird is free to breathe the open air. When I moved here, all I brought were shorts, tshirts, a jacket for the rare occasions when the island hits the freezing point (65 deg fah.) Most of the time I only wear a pair of shorts and sandals. If it's a more formal situation, I'll put on a t-shirt. If it's a fancy restaurant, I'll grit my teeth and bear the discomfort of wearing relaxed fit baggy jeans. -fk 15815 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:16pm Subject: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > > Just one thing though - typing on > > the computer > > naked at home is appropriate, but my advice would be > > not to try it in > > an Internet Cafe - 'different horses for different > > courses'? > > I've always been on the leading edge of casual > dressing. This is just the logical conclusion. If our > species is to evolve, people will eventually catch on > and follow me lead. Well I guess that's the end of the dsg video-conferencing idea! Seriously though, Frank, I just want to apologize for jumping into your private conversation with Christine here, especially taking into account that both of you are naked, I feel it's particularly inappropriate. Apologies again for coming in without knocking first, Robert Ep. 15816 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:20pm Subject: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > Unfortunately the paradise I live in is not completely > enlightened. There are some designated beaches and > areas where I'm free as a bird and my bird is free to > breathe the open air. When I moved here, all I brought > were shorts, tshirts, a jacket for the rare occasions > when the island hits the freezing point (65 deg fah.) > > Most of the time I only wear a pair of shorts and > sandals. If it's a more formal situation, I'll put on > a t-shirt. If it's a fancy restaurant, I'll grit my > teeth and bear the discomfort of wearing relaxed fit > baggy jeans. So they DO have a GAP where you are?? Robert Ep. 15817 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:50pm Subject: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls Hi RobEp, I was going to begin with "Robert!! I'm Shocked!! I do Earnestly Assure You That Not Only Do I Never Type On The Computer In Such An Avant Garde Mode of Dress, but ... blah, blah, blah ...." However, I'll just settle for "You'll keep mate!" :) :) and "Moderators! where is the Dhamma focus?" <--- This Is Not Dobbing. (trans. from Oz - 'to tell on someone') :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Robert Epstein" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Frank Kuan wrote: > > > > Just one thing though - typing on > > > the computer > > > naked at home is appropriate, but my advice would be > > > not to try it in > > > an Internet Cafe - 'different horses for different > > > courses'? > > > > I've always been on the leading edge of casual > > dressing. This is just the logical conclusion. If our > > species is to evolve, people will eventually catch on > > and follow me lead. > > Well I guess that's the end of the dsg video-conferencing idea! > > Seriously though, Frank, I just want to apologize for jumping into your > private conversation with Christine here, especially taking into > account that both of you are naked, I feel it's particularly > inappropriate. > > Apologies again for coming in without knocking first, > Robert Ep. 15818 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 1:34am Subject: Re: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls Hi Chris & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi RobEp, > > I was going to begin with "Robert!! I'm Shocked!! I do Earnestly > Assure You That Not Only Do I Never Type On The Computer In Such An > Avant Garde Mode of Dress, but ... blah, blah, blah ...." > However, I'll just settle for "You'll keep mate!" :) :) > and "Moderators! where is the Dhamma focus?" <--- This Is Not > Dobbing. (trans. from Oz - 'to tell on someone') :) ..... Just be glad it wasn’t muesli-eating time;-) Perhaps we should add a new rule insisting that everyone (except Frank) follow my example and submit a pic of themselves at the computer to Clarify Doubts and prevent Naughty Papanca creeping into the list. Somewhere I have one of Jon with just a towel wrapped round vital parts, shaving with one hand and typing with the other....maybe still a little too Avant Garde for a Family List.* Another idea I’ve just had -- seeing as everyone (Jon & I especially) must be tired of the Dreaded Moderator Bulletins -- would be instead to have a Group Dobbing System whereby anyone can Dob anyone for the next installment of the Satipatthana Sutta or Cetasikas. What d’ya reckon? (P'haps I'd better check with my other mate first;-)) ***** So as to avoid getting dobbed myself from the very outset, let me pick up on a relevant thread of idle chatter in “Right Speech and War” which has been sitting in my ‘next rainy day for reply’ pile. Antony gave this helpful quote: Ven U Dhamminda said in "Right Speech": "There is another place in the commentaries where it mentions that not all talk about kings and thieves and ministers (and armies, dangers and wars) etc. is idle chatter - it depends on the context in which it is spoken because even the Buddha sometimes he would use them as examples to illustrate a point of Dhamma. So in the context of Dhamma sometimes you have to talk about these things - and talk about food or whatever. So it depends on the context in which it's been spoken - if it is of benefit to somebody in a Dhammic sense in order to teach them some aspect of the Dhamma then you can talk about these things." ***** For most of us, most the time, I think such talk, as Rob M was originally pointing out, is idle chatter or ‘pointless talk’, however much we may try to justify it (as I’m doing now;-)) However, I do think the Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2), with the emphasis on ayoniso & yoniso manasikara (unwise and wise attention) is helpful in this connection: “What are the things unfit for attention that he attends to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire arises in him and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the unarisen taint of being arises in him and the arisen taint of being increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance increases in him and the arisen taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention that he attends to.” ***** B.Bodhi helpfully refers to some commentary notes here: 1.“MA makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. the distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention. that mode of attention that is a causal basis for unwholesome states of mind should be avoided, while that mode of attention that is a causal basis for wholesome states should be developed.” 2. “MA illustrates the growth of the taints through unwise attention as follows: When he attends to gratification in the five cords of sensual pleasure, the taint of sensual desire arises and increases; when he attends to gratification in the exalted states (the jhanas), the taint of being arises and increases; and when he attends to any mundane things through the four “perversions” (of permanence, pleasure, self and beautiful etc), the taint of ignorance arises and increases.” 3. “MA says that up to the attainment of the path of stream-entry, attention denotes insight (vipassanaa), but at the moment of the path it dentotes path-knowledge. Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective range is the mental and material phenomena comprised under dukkha and its origin; it can know the latter two truths only inferentially. Path-knowledge makes the truth of cessation its object, apprehending it by penetration as object (aaramma.na)...” ***** Hope there’s a little more wise attention now. Sarah p.s Chris, you know, Avant Garde or Jon’s Version of A.G. would save on the ironing......;-) ========================================== 15819 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls Dear Jim (& Nina), --- Jim Anderson wrote: >Thanks for bringing up the three meanings of > satipatthana which I have never done a thorough study of but was aware > of them. The distinctions between the three still remain unclear to > me. I find the first meaning interesting as it uses the term > 'satigocara' (the domain of mindfulness). 'gocara' had come up for > discussion in Niagara Falls regarding the term 'paramattha' which has > an alternative meaning of something like 'the domain of ultimate > '. I noticed that the Ven. Soma did not translate the > section on the three meanings in his The Way of Mindfulness (at least > in my edition), but ~Naa.namoli has a translation of a parallel > passage in the Vibhanga commentary. I think it would be very good to > do an in-depth study of the Pali original which is about a page long. ..... Thanks for this and a good idea, Jim. I had been puzzled before when Khun Sujin had referred to the 'three kinds of sattipatthana' from the sutta and commentary notes and had not been able to find it. Now I see it at the start of the Sammohavinodani translation. By domain (satigocaro), I understand it to refer to the objects or 'foundations' of mindfulness, which is why it could also refer to paramattha as you suggest above: ".....the meaning of that is: "that on which it is founded" (pati.t.thaati) is "foundation" (pa.t.thaana). What is founded? Mindfulnes. it is "mindfulness's foundation" (satiyaa pa.t.thaana.m) which is the "foundation of mindfulness" (sati-pa.t.thaana). Or foundation (pa.t.thaana) means place for effort (padhaana.t.thaana); it is the "place" (pa.t.thaana) for mindfulness (satiyaa; gen. or dat.) that is the "foundation of mindfulness" (satipa.t.thaana), like the "place for elephants" (hatthi.t.thaana), "place for horses" (assa.t.thaana)." ***** I'll be glad to hear any further comments you or Nina or anyone else may have on these 3 meanings and any in-depth study from your consideration of the Pali terms. Sarah ====== 15820 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 2:38am Subject: Jataka Tales again Dear Group, I didn't fully comprehend the Jataka tale (Dasannaka-Jataka No. 401 p 207 Vol iii) used to illustrate the danger and disadvantage of clinging. I find this example quite concerning. The Tale is said to teach that 'when one gives something one should not regret it afterwards'. But what did it teach about wise consideration, about giving only what ought to be given, about non-harming and not abusing power, consideration for others, morality, compassion, sensitivity, love? The story basically is about the King of Magadha and his beautiful Queen. The son of the house-hold priest goes off his food because he sees the Queen and lusts after her. (must have already tried all the usual strategies). The King sends for him, and says,"I give her to you for seven days, spend those days at your house and on the eighth send her back." (This is his wife - a human being here, not a set of hedge clippers). She doesn't return on the eighth day (and what woman would?) but leaves the country with the son of the house- hold priest. (which, no doubt, left the house-hold priest in an awkward position.) Why wasn't the King's behaviour severely criticised in the Tale? Why was the woman criticiised - she who seems more sinned against than sinning. Why should she come back knowing she might be 'loaned' out again at anytime on the King's whim? I don't think 'the great King Maddava' was such a great human being ... He says (can you believe it?) "I did according to my word and gave her: Surely I have done a hard thing" (I won't comment on that) AND "If she loved me she would not forsake her kingdom and flee away: what have I to do with her when she has not loved me but fled away?" (Good Grief!!) I don't understand the Bodhisatta's behaviour in the story. And did the Buddha really use this story and tell a Brother "That woman does you harm: formerly too you were dying of mental sickness owing to her, and got life owing to wise men." Somehow, I don't think 'different times, different cultures' quite explains this story. metta, Christine 15821 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] study thread Hi Larry (& Christine), This also sounds a pretty good idea to me - sure to lead to plenty of 'debate';-) If you decide on it, I would just add three suggestions: 1. Start with the Sutta and Commentary notes themselves rather than Soma's intro as we'd need to keep referring to the Sutta and com anyway to discuss some of his remarks. (Or quote from his intro when discussing the sutta or add it at the end for further discussion if you like). 2. As the Commentary and Sub-com are in different italics in the text, whoever posted sections would need to add a 'C: ' and 'Sub-C:' to make it clear. 3. As you did such a great job with ADL and stayed the whole course when one by one your study corner members dropped out or faded, I think you should continue posting the extracts and with this in mind, I'll happily give my vote to whatever you wish;-) If you don't want to be responsible, my vote goes to Christine to post extracts from 'Cetasikas' which I think would be very useful too. (Or maybe we could have both going along, but at a slower rate....e.g one extract from each every few days rather than two from one - I mean we're used to being confused and bombarded from different sources here and this would slow down and share your responsibility;-)) Sarah ===== 15822 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 4:15am Subject: Re: Meeting up with Rob M <2> Hi Rob Ep, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Robert Epstein" wrote: > Could you possibly explain how you downloaded all of the archives onto > your hard Drive? Is there some command by which they all were loaded > ino the appropriate files? When I save posts, I have to do a separate > 'Save As' for each one, which results in pretty weird Netscape versions > of each file, or else cut and paste into a document. > > If you prefer to reply off list, please email to me at > epsteinrob@y... I will answer on-line as there may be others wondering the same thing. I use Internet Explorer. I displayed a screen of 15 messages, showing the complete message (not just the subject line). I did a "Save As" command and it created an HTML document with a name like "Yahoo! Groups: dhammastudygroup Messages 1 - 15 of 15532". A directory of the same name was created in the directory that contained the images (advertisements, header, etc.). I can then open the HTML document off-line using Internet Explorer. Once this was done, I repeated the process more than 1000 times (mind numbing labour of love). Sorry, but there is no magic involved; just a lot of repetitive actions. Once the files have been saved on my hard disk, I can use the Windows search function to find instances of words or phrases. It is more than 100 Meg of files and I tried to burn a CD. Unfortunately, the CD burning software died because of the huge number of directories (more than 1000). I am looking for a more updated CD burning software. If I can make it work, I would be happy to send you a CD of the first 15,000+ messages (whatever we are up to at the time) if that would be of help. A small repayment for the valuable Dhamma that I have learned reading your posts. Thanks, Rob M :-) 15823 From: Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 1:51am Subject: Re: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls Hi, Christine (and Rob E, and Frank) - In a message dated 9/21/02 1:51:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hi RobEp, > > I was going to begin with "Robert!! I'm Shocked!! I do Earnestly > Assure You That Not Only Do I Never Type On The Computer In Such An > Avant Garde Mode of Dress, but ... blah, blah, blah ...." > However, I'll just settle for "You'll keep mate!" :) :) > and "Moderators! where is the Dhamma focus?" <--- This Is Not > Dobbing. (trans. from Oz - 'to tell on someone') :) > > metta, > Christine > ============================== Christine, you ask about Dhamma focus. To me it is obvious: You and Frank have reached the stage of *nonattachment* to rituals of dress, and your bodies are often *empty* of *adventitious defilements*. Frank, in particular, that Mahapurusa in our midst, has reached the stage, to paraphrase him, of being "free as a bird"! [My apologies all around! ;-) Just operating in silly mode!] With manic metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15824 From: Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 2:44am Subject: Slowing Down and Using Concepts Hi, all - We've talked on-list before of whether slowing down actions (such as walking) is useful in meditating (whether we consider that meditating "formal" or not). There has also been raised the question of whether or not insight has a conceptual component or only involves a "direct" knowing. I was thinking before of a trivial, quite mundane matter which, conceivably, has some relevance to these two matters. I was remembering exactly how I went about teaching my sons so many years ago how to tie their shoelaces. I recall two aspects of it: 1) I demonstrated the tying (on their own shoes) *very slowly* and pausing after separable stages in the process, and I commented on what was happening all along. What was involved was direct observation along with hearing verbal characterization, and all at a slow and staged pace. I suspect the following: a) Had this not been done slowly, they would not have learned at all, and b) Had it been done slowly, but without stages or without verbal commentary, they would still have learned, but less quickly. (Of course, their own recognitional abilities (sa~n~na) would have been operative without my verbal comments and without my making explicit the "stages" of the process. But without slowing the process down, I think it would have been hopeless.) Now, extrapolating from this to the process of meditation is, of course, a BIG jump. Still, I think there may be some relevance, at least to early stages of meditation practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15825 From: Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 3:54am Subject: A Couple More Words Re: [dsg] Slowing Down and Using Concepts Hi, all - In a message dated 9/21/02 9:44:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, all - > > We've talked on-list before of whether slowing down actions (such as > > walking) is useful in meditating (whether we consider that meditating > "formal" or not). There has also been raised the question of whether or not > > insight has a conceptual component or only involves a "direct" knowing. > I was thinking before of a trivial, quite mundane matter which, > conceivably, has some relevance to these two matters. I was remembering > exactly how I went about teaching my sons so many years ago how to tie > their > shoelaces. I recall two aspects of it: 1) I demonstrated the tying (on > their > own shoes) *very slowly* and pausing after separable stages in the process, > > and I commented on what was happening all along. What was involved was > direct > observation along with hearing verbal characterization, and all at a slow > and > staged pace. > I suspect the following: a) Had this not been done slowly, they > would > not have learned at all, and b) Had it been done slowly, but without stages > > or without verbal commentary, they would still have learned, but less > quickly. (Of course, their own recognitional abilities (sa~n~na) would have > > been operative without my verbal comments and without my making explicit > the > "stages" of the process. But without slowing the process down, I think it > would have been hopeless.) > Now, extrapolating from this to the process of meditation is, of > course, a BIG jump. Still, I think there may be some relevance, at least to > > early stages of meditation practice. > > With metta, > Howard > =========================== Obviously, the purpose of meditating is different from the purpose of learning how to tie one's shoes. In the latter case, one is merely learning an activity. In the former case, for example with walking meditation or meditation on the breath, one is learning at least the following: 1) What was originally grasped as a unity is really a composite of stages or parts, and 2) even the most elementary aspects of what was originally perceived as a substantial unity are themselves dependent on specific conditions for their arising - and they do not remain. (This is true, of course, about shoelace tying as well, but learning that fact isn't the purpose of *that* lesson.) There is also at least the following central lesson learned in the meditating: Impersonality. Breathing usually occurs without (conscious) volition, and thus obviously without an agent, and the walking occurs *with* volition, but it is "mere" volition (with no agent behind it). This latter fact, the impersonality of the volition, however, is only seen when mindfulness and concentration have risen to a sufficiently high intensity. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15826 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 8:10am Subject: Re: Slowing Down and Using Concepts: No Need To Extrpolate Dear Howard How are you? You wrote: "I suspect the following: a) Had this not been done slowly, they would not have learned at all, and b) Had it been done slowly, but without stages or without verbal commentary, they would still have learned, but less quickly. (Of course, their own recognitional abilities (sa~n~na) would have been operative without my verbal comments and without my making explicit the "stages" of the process. But without slowing the process down, I think it would have been hopeless.) Now, extrapolating from this to the process of meditation is, of course, a BIG jump. Still, I think there may be some relevance, at least to early stages of meditation practice." You do not need to extrapolate what you demonstrated to your sons, to the process of meditation. If you observed every step of your demonstration with full awareness, that very process of demonstration became the Buddhist insight meditation (vipassanaa / satipa.t.thaana). If you kept doing that demonstration with an observant mind with full awareness as though it were your meditation practice, you would end up with pre-jhaana concentration (upacaa samaadhi) which is adequate enough for bodhi-level insight. Why would the shoelace-tying demonstration become a kind of Buddhist insight meditation? That is because Buddhist insight meditation is based on real phenomena such as matter called shoelaces, the changing manners of matter called the relevant movements of your hands and eyes, and mind that is observant of every stage of movements and changes. In short, shoelace-tying demonstration is not one thing, and meditation is not another. You can neatly carry out and conbine the two things as one process. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - . . Now, extrapolating from this to the process of meditation is, of course, a BIG jump. Still, I think there may be some relevance, at least to early stages of meditation practice. With metta, Howard 15827 From: Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Slowing Down and Using Concepts: No Need To Extrpolate Hi, Suan - In a message dated 9/21/02 11:11:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > Dear Howard > > How are you? > > You wrote: > > "I suspect the following: a) Had this not been done slowly, they > would not have learned at all, and b) Had it been done slowly, but > without stages or without verbal commentary, they would still have > learned, but less quickly. (Of course, their own recognitional > abilities (sa~n~na) would have been operative without my verbal > comments and without my making explicit the "stages" of the process. > But without slowing the process down, I think it would have been > hopeless.) Now, extrapolating from this to the process of meditation > is, of course, a BIG jump. Still, I think there may be some > relevance, at least to early stages of meditation practice." > > You do not need to extrapolate what you demonstrated to your sons, to > the process of meditation. > > If you observed every step of your demonstration with full awareness, > that very process of demonstration became the Buddhist insight > meditation (vipassanaa / satipa.t.thaana). > > If you kept doing that demonstration with an observant mind with full > awareness as though it were your meditation practice, you would end > up with pre-jhaana concentration (upacaa samaadhi) which is adequate > enough for bodhi-level insight. > > Why would the shoelace-tying demonstration become a kind of Buddhist > insight meditation? > > That is because Buddhist insight meditation is based on real > phenomena such as matter called shoelaces, the changing manners of > matter called the relevant movements of your hands and eyes, and mind > that is observant of every stage of movements and changes. > > In short, shoelace-tying demonstration is not one thing, and > meditation is not another. You can neatly carry out and conbine the > two things as one process. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: You are correct - that is, I agree. ;-) You may be able to detect from my follow-up post on this topic that this subsequently occurred to me. (That is why I said there "This is true, of course, about shoelace tying as well, but learning that fact isn't the purpose of *that* lesson.") -------------------------------------------------- > > With kind regards, > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org > =========================== With metta, Howard > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > . > . > > Now, extrapolating from this to the process of meditation is, of > course, a BIG jump. Still, I think there may be some relevance, at > least to > early stages of meditation practice. > > With metta, > Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Dear Frank, :-) :-) :-) you gave me a good time, I had to laugh aloud, could not stop. Is that impolite? Should I laugh only off line? I liked your reference to cheetah, anyway, you do not forget that it is citta which thinks all these humorous, somewhat ironical things. But I know your good heart. You may butt in any time !!! Keep good cheer, Nina. op 20-09-2002 16:11 schreef Frank Kuan op fcckuan@y...: > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: >> Dear Jim, may I butt in? >> There are three meanings of satipatthana: > > > Shouldn't Nina have stopped at, "may I butt in", > waited a few days for Jim to respond by email, "yes > you may", or "absolutely not", before proceding to > launch into a full post response? Isn't it quite > presumptuous of Nina? Is this not a breach of > etiquetee? you all are > just silly humans overdoing it with the polite thing. > note to moderators: suttas are actually just a > skillful way of teaching abidhamma, physics and > biochemistry is actually abidhamma, and when I post an > article about netiquetee it's actually a skillful way > of teaching abidhamma as well. And for extra > insurance, I made a reference to cheetah mind moment > in this post. So there! I'm on topic, you can't stop > me. 15829 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:dukkha, to Ken H Dear Ken H, Your message was not , just the opposite. I tell you sincerely what was in my mind just before writing to you. I came across you last year because I was looking for a text about knowing the conditionality of phenomena, and I was thinking in this respect of 9-11, and then someone helped me to trace the text and we came to you. Since then I noticed that you always had good things to say, to the point. I was also thinking of Noosa, and the meeting at your farm with much appreciation. Then you came with this message and I thought,< how nice to have a Dhamma conversation with Ken. A pity that on line is so complicated, considering timing, and also for me keeping the telephone line. Rob K. once did this in such a lively way. Now we write something and then we have to wait for an answer. > That is why I asked in my post what you were thinking, to keep the conversation going. I also saw in your remark an opening to say something more about dukkha, but, as our good friend Frank remarked, a post is not only addressed to one person but to all (perennial lurkers included), and also to myself. Thus, don't take it personally, as criticism, I was thinking of many people when answering you. Some people do not get all the meanings of dukkha: dukkha-dukkha, painful feeling and unpleasant (mental) feeling, parinama dukkha, the changeability of things, and finally, sankhara dukkha, the impermanence of all conditioned realities which are therefore unsatisfactory. Now see below: op 20-09-2002 08:09 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: -------------- > K: > You then gave a further explanation of the quotation > which, I think, I followed reasonable well, and you > added: > ------------- > N: >> We should go step by step. We neglect to be aware of > feeling, it is only a nama which feels. We are not aware > of feeling, because we are immediately carried away by > our pleasant or unpleasant feeling. These are conditions > for being deluded by stories of people we like or > dislike, keeping them in our thoughts endlessly. > > ------------ > K: > How would you paraphrase the original quotation to make > it apply to feeling? I'd have a go myself but I think > I've done enough damage to it already. Nina: No question of damage. Feeling is one of the five khandhas which are impermament and thus unsatisfactory. But, I neglect being aware of feeling. >K:You conclude by asking:---------- >> What is your idea about this? > > --------------- >(snip) It wouldn't > be the first time that my theorising has led me in the > wrong direction. N: We all are theorizing, because direct awareness and understanding is another step. But first there should be right intellectual understanding of what the objects of awareness are, gocara sampajanna, right understanding of the field, the objects of awareness. Difficult for all of us. See Sarah's series on realities and concepts which I appreciate so much. Even though I know the theory, the practice is another matter. >K:I had the idea that the Buddha's explanation of the First > Noble Truth could be read in the same way as your > explanation of visible object (with some paraphrasing of > course). Now, I'm wishing I had left that alone. N:Do not leave it alone :-) It is correct that visible object is dukkha. But since this truth is so deep, it is hard to realize it in all implications. First, visible object should be known as rupa, different from nama which experiences. It is different from feeling which is nama. BTW, when we speak about the first stage of insight: distinguishing the different characteristics of nama and of rupa, we should not believe that nama and rupa have to be realized in a specific order, such as the of seeing and visible object, hearing and sound. A. Sujin explained that nobody can predict the objects of insight that appear. It may be a rupa such as hardness and feeling which is nama, it is beyond control. (I address all here, including myself) K: Unfortunately, I don't have any profound ideas to add. I > will gladly spend more time considering seeing and > feeling, and less time theorizing :-) N: That is for all of us, you said it. Thank you for this reminder, very good! I knew you would say useful things. Any ideas are most wellcome. With much appreciation, Nina. 15830 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls, Rob Ep. Dear Jim, see below. op 20-09-2002 17:43 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: . Thanks for bringing up the three meanings of > satipatthana which I have never done a thorough study of but was aware > of them. The distinctions between the three still remain unclear to > me. I find the first meaning interesting as it uses the term > 'satigocara' (the domain of mindfulness). 'gocara' had come up for > discussion in Niagara Falls regarding the term 'paramattha' which has > an alternative meaning of something like 'the domain of ultimate > '. Nina: a very interesting term, gocara, field or pasture. See Vis. I, 51: Here the text refers to the Sutta of the Falcon, which I like very much. So dangerous to leave this , because akusala jumps in at once. But also akusala can be contemplated as citta in citta or dhammas in dhammas, the gocara is everywhere and always there. I am so glad this was brought up in the Niagara Falls. Paramattha dhammas are the gocara of insight. Again, I would like to refer to the importance of Sarah's series. Very basic. J: I noticed that the Ven. Soma did not translate the > section on the three meanings in his The Way of Mindfulness (at least > in my edition), but ~Naa.namoli has a translation of a parallel > passage in the Vibhanga commentary. N: Also in the Samanna Phalasutta, looking ahead, etc. we find them. They can vary at different places. J: I think it would be very good to > do an in-depth study of the Pali original which is about a page long. N: I am all in !!! How and where? If it is in the Pali study, Rob Ep will protest loudly. Best wishes from Nina. 15831 From: antony272b2 Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 5:54pm Subject: Re: Meeting up with Rob M <2> --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Rob Ep, > > > I will answer on-line as there may be others wondering the same > thing. I use Internet Explorer. I displayed a screen of 15 messages, > showing the complete message (not just the subject line). I did > a "Save As" command and it created an HTML document with a name > like "Yahoo! Groups: dhammastudygroup Messages 1 - 15 of 15532". This can be done by going to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages and clicking on "Expand Messages" at the bottom of the page. metta / Antony. 15832 From: azita gill Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 7:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the lakknana rupas, impermanence --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Daer > > > dear Nina, Larry and Christine, < thanks for your comments on impermance. No, Nina, I am not more confused, now that I have more information to think about. It has taken me a while to reply; I now have a new second-hand computor which is much easier to read from, the last one was very old and had a 'wobbly' screen. < looking forward to meeting up with you in BKK in Nov/Dec. I will be there for 3 weeks. Hoping to come back home with a lot more Dhamma books than I have at the moment. < will close with another comment of Ven. Dhammadharo: < 'to talk about what Buddhist people do is not very useful to find out what the Buddha taught, bce. every individual is accumlating and has accumulated many different degrees of the 52 cetasikas. This moment of citta is conditioned by the previous citta - likewise the next moment is conditioned by this moment. Therefore the rebirth is conditioned by the moment of death consciousness. So regardless of what we think or feel about rebirth it just arises and falls away - just like this moment - until the ultimate cause is eradicated i.e. craving. < our practice is to develop the Right Understanding of realities of our daily life' < patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 15833 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 9:57pm Subject: Re: Meeting up with Rob M <2> thanks, Antony. very interesting. Rob Ep. ================== --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "antony272b2" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Rob Ep, > > > > > > I will answer on-line as there may be others wondering the same > > thing. I use Internet Explorer. I displayed a screen of 15 > messages, > > showing the complete message (not just the subject line). I did > > a "Save As" command and it created an HTML document with a name > > like "Yahoo! Groups: dhammastudygroup Messages 1 - 15 of 15532". > > This can be done by going to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages > > and clicking on "Expand Messages" at the bottom of the page. > > metta / Antony. 15834 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls, Rob Ep. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Also in the Samanna Phalasutta, looking ahead, etc. we find them. They > can vary at different places. > J: I think it would be very good to > > do an in-depth study of the Pali original which is about a page long. > N: I am all in !!! How and where? If it is in the Pali study, Rob Ep will > protest loudly. > Best wishes > from Nina. yes, I want to see it! I want to see it! : ) robert ep. 15835 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:27pm Subject: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls Hi Chris. And Howard, happy to see you in 'silly mode'. Dear Chris, I understand your distress, recalling that you are someone who didn't want their hairstyle revealed in the group photo some months ago! [I only have a decent memory for embarassing details.] But you needn't worry, Frank assures me all the videos have been destroyed. I'm just kidding!!! Okay, I formally request that the moderators stop me before I go O/T again. Howard, it's time to get serious again. Post a few mathematical formulae showing that Dhamma = Nibbana + Buddha(Samsara/exponent "n") and I will start ranting about the luminous mind, and things will be back to normal. : ) Robert Ep. ===================== --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine (and Rob E, and Frank) - > > In a message dated 9/21/02 1:51:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > > Hi RobEp, > > > > I was going to begin with "Robert!! I'm Shocked!! I do Earnestly > > Assure You That Not Only Do I Never Type On The Computer In Such An > > Avant Garde Mode of Dress, but ... blah, blah, blah ...." > > However, I'll just settle for "You'll keep mate!" :) :) > > and "Moderators! where is the Dhamma focus?" <--- This Is Not > > Dobbing. (trans. from Oz - 'to tell on someone') :) > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > ============================== > Christine, you ask about Dhamma focus. To me it is obvious: You and > Frank have reached the stage of *nonattachment* to rituals of dress, and your > bodies are often *empty* of *adventitious defilements*. Frank, in particular, > that Mahapurusa in our midst, has reached the stage, to paraphrase him, of > being "free as a bird"! > [My apologies all around! ;-) Just operating in silly mode!] > > With manic metta, > Howard 15836 From: Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] study thread Hi Sarah, I could do it but I would need some help. My memory isn't big enough to read the whole book so I would need someone to send me big chunks of text and then I could break it down into daily installments. Christine, is that in the realm of possibility for you? If so, what I would need first is the "Notes." Then I could let you know when to send some more. I can get a little way into it on my own. I think we may as well plow through it like a book and begin with the preface. However, I agree it is a little difficult to follow so having your own copy of the book would definitely be beneficial. It would probably be a good idea if everyone reads the basic sutta several times. Larry 15837 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:34pm Subject: Re: Meeting up with Rob M <2> --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > It is more than 100 Meg of files and I tried to burn a CD. > Unfortunately, the CD burning software died because of the huge > number of directories (more than 1000). I am looking for a more > updated CD burning software. If I can make it work, I would be happy > to send you a CD of the first 15,000+ messages (whatever we are up > to at the time) if that would be of help. A small repayment for the > valuable Dhamma that I have learned reading your posts. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) Dear Rob M, First of all, i apologize for giving someone else credit for your maneouver. I responded to another post that quoted part of this one. Anyway, I sure would appreciate that disk. What a great thing to have handy. I happen to have some pretty advanced CD burning software, which I might be able to get to you. Send me a message off list and if you like I'll try to mail you something. And thank you so much for your statement about my posts. That is very kind. Best, Robert Ep. 15838 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:52pm Subject: [dsg] Speech and Intentions was (Re: Updated Class Notes Now On-Line) Hi KC, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. The references are from Atthasalini, Book I, Part III, Section V, "Discourse on Courses of Immoral Action" Of course, there is a lot more detail in the Atthasalini than in my Class Notes. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Rob M > > > > > Again, P.13 of Class Notes indicates the "class" of beings (see > > remarks under "killing"). "Large animals more serious than small > > animals, humans more serious than animals. Virtuous being more > > serious than non-virtuous being." > > > > k: Where do you get these references? > > > kind regards > kc 15839 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:53pm Subject: Re: Jataka Tales again --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > The story basically is about the King of Magadha and his beautiful > Queen. The son of the house-hold priest goes off his food because > he sees the Queen and lusts after her. (must have already tried all > the usual strategies). Hmnn....wonder if he tried naked letter-writing.... The King sends for him, and says,"I give her > to you for seven days, spend those days at your house and on the > eighth send her back." (This is his wife - a human being here, not a > set of hedge clippers). Unfortunately you're pretty close to the mark. Also see the Inuit custom of 'wife-sharing'; and the old British 'rule of thumb' [this famous expression comes from the old British law that a man could not beat his wife with a stick thicker than his thumb.] Hedge clippers indeed! [snip] He says (can you believe it?) "I did according to my word > and gave her: Surely I have done a hard thing" (I won't comment on > that) AND "If she loved me she would not forsake her kingdom and flee > away: what have I to do with her when she has not loved me but fled > away?" (Good Grief!!) Men are always like that. They fool around and then they cry when the women leave them. "What'd I do? What'd I do?" > I don't understand the Bodhisatta's behaviour in the story. > And did the Buddha really use this story and tell a Brother "That > woman does you harm: formerly too you were dying of mental sickness > owing to her, and got life owing to wise men." > > Somehow, I don't think 'different times, different cultures' quite > explains this story. Unfortunately, that's probably the explanation. I personally don't adhere to a divine interpretation of everything the Buddha says, although his knowledge may be infallible, and I think that some stories, even those told by the Buddha, can be the product of a specific time and place where women were considered property, and were to defer to the men in their lives. It's still a bit like that in parts of India today, as well as other places in the world, so it's not so far-fetched that people would hold these distasteful views of women. For those who adhere to the Buddha's words as 100% Gospel, this is as much of a problem as similar statements in the Western Bible, such as, anyone who works on the Sabbath should be killed by stoning. But if you look at the lesson and ignore the example, you may still get the Buddha's point. He was bound to preach in terms that his listeners would understand. Robert Ep. 15840 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:58pm Subject: What would Ms. Manners do in cyberspace? Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Perhaps we should add a new rule insisting that everyone (except Frank) > follow my example and submit a pic of themselves at the computer to > Clarify Doubts and prevent Naughty Papanca creeping into the list. > Somewhere I have one of Jon with just a towel wrapped round vital parts, > shaving with one hand and typing with the other....maybe still a little > too Avant Garde for a Family List.* We can handle it. Robert Ep. 15841 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 0:08am Subject: [dsg] Re:dukkha, to Ken H Dear Nina, Thank you for your kind and generous reply. When I compose a message, I tend to use words that convey the wrong meaning. I don't realise this until a day or so later. Because of the need for delayed proof readings, most of my posts never get sent. Sometimes I simply lose interest, other times I thoroughly delete them, thankful they never saw the light of day. Lately, I have been hitting the `send' button in an uncharacteristically, devil-may-care fashion. In my latest message, I intended to make a few jokes at my own expense. I was aware of possibly sounding like I was wallowing in hurt feelings but I sent it anyway, relying [too heavily], on those smiley faces :-) The nature of my writing disability has been cause for endless theorising and introspection. You said that theorising is OK, provided it is consistent with the Dhamma; could we say that introspection is OK provided it amounts to understanding one's own accumulations? In "The Buddha and His Teachings," Ven. Nerada mentions an occasion when some young noblemen approached the Buddha and asked if he had seen a thief who had made off with their valuables. The Buddha said, "Which would be better, to find a thief or to find yourselves?" I suppose by `finding yourselves,' he meant `knowing your accumulations,' which would be the same as `knowing the five khandhas.' I like the idea of knowing my accumulations, it is introspection without self-obsession. Lately, I have been more accepting of my inadequacies and I don't waste so much time wishing I was like other people -- people for whom it is less than a major ordeal to jot down a few thoughts and post them off to dsg :-) Kind regards and thanks again, Ken H 15842 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 0:09am Subject: One Single Excellent Night Dear Group, It is Sunday evening here. I was printing off a page to carry through the busy day in the front of my work diary as a Dhamma reminder. Perhaps someone else may enjoy it too. This elegant and beautiful excerpt is from the translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi of: Majjhima Nikaya 133 Mahakaccanabhaddekaratta Sutta. 'Maha Kaccana and One Single Excellent Night' "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably. Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night - It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has had a single excellent night." metta, Christine 15843 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 1:08am Subject: [dsg] Re:dukkha, to Ken H Dear KenH, I understand (a little) of how you are feeling about your writing disability - perhaps I understand more than you realise ... You write something that seems to be exactly what you mean to say, to express your understanding of the Dhamma or the subtle points of a current thread under discussion to a nicety - reading it over immediately it seems to you that you have, for once, precisely conveyed your thoughts. But reading it over a day or two later (sometimes after posting), the intellectual and spiritual quality and tone of your thoughts seems to have become distorted, incomplete or trivialised. It is, without doubt, frustrating, and galling. You have such a fine intelligence and understanding of the Dhamma, as everyone who has met you agrees, and as everyone who reads your posts will know. I know that sometimes, being hobbled by such a difficulty makes you hesitant to join in or express any opinion. Please persevere, as you have been doing lately. It is to all our benefit. Even if you feel you are not saying what you intend, your posts are very valuable. I learn from and look forward to everything you write. If you feel a glaring error has been made, there can always be a follow-up post. (Each of us struggles with our own bete noire. Mine is an overpowering instantaneous emotional reaction that equally has a distorting function for up to a day or so.) As Azita says we need "patience, courage and good cheer", and as KenO often said, we should "strive on with vigour". much metta to you KenH, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Nina, > > Thank you for your kind and generous reply. When I > compose a message, I tend to use words that convey the > wrong meaning. I don't realise this until a day or so > later. Because of the need for delayed proof readings, > most of my posts never get sent. Sometimes I simply lose > interest, other times I thoroughly delete them, thankful > they never saw the light of day. > > Lately, I have been hitting the `send' button in an > uncharacteristically, devil-may-care fashion. In my > latest message, I intended to make a few jokes at my own > expense. I was aware of possibly sounding like I was > wallowing in hurt feelings but I sent it anyway, relying > [too heavily], on those smiley faces :-) > > The nature of my writing disability has been cause for > endless theorising and introspection. You said that > theorising is OK, provided it is consistent with the > Dhamma; could we say that introspection is OK provided it > amounts to understanding one's own accumulations? > > In "The Buddha and His Teachings," Ven. Nerada mentions > an occasion when some young noblemen approached the > Buddha and asked if he had seen a thief who had made off > with their valuables. The Buddha said, "Which would be > better, to find a thief or to find yourselves?" > > I suppose by `finding yourselves,' he meant `knowing your > accumulations,' which would be the same as `knowing the > five khandhas.' > > I like the idea of knowing my accumulations, it is > introspection without self-obsession. Lately, I have > been more accepting of my inadequacies and I don't waste > so much time wishing I was like other people -- people > for whom it is less than a major ordeal to jot down a few > thoughts and post them off to dsg :-) > > Kind regards and thanks again, > Ken H 15844 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 6:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again The Buddha spoke to a backsliding monk, and thus, he would not advocate the benefit of a happy marriage, and the loveliness of women. The essence is in the stanzas of the Jataka, and the story around it is in the Commentary to the Jataka. Let us look at the essence, explained by A. Sujin: In the story there is nothing about women's rights, another culture. The ancestors of the King of Thailand had more than one spouse, different mores. I did not think much about it when reading, I thought of the lesson taught. But not all Jatakas will appeal to everyone, I understand. Kindest regards, Nina. op 21-09-2002 11:38 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > I didn't fully comprehend the Jataka tale (Dasannaka-Jataka No. 401 p > 207 Vol iii) used to illustrate the danger and disadvantage of > clinging. I find this example quite concerning. The Tale is said to > teach that 'when one gives something one should not regret it > afterwards'. But what did it teach about wise consideration, about > giving only what ought to be given, about non-harming and not abusing > power, consideration for others, morality, compassion, sensitivity, > love? > > The story basically is about the King of Magadha and his beautiful > Queen. The son of the house-hold priest goes off his food because > he sees the Queen and lusts after her. (must have already tried all > the usual strategies). The King sends for him, and says,"I give her > to you for seven days, spend those days at your house and on the > eighth send her back." (This is his wife - a human being here, not a > set of hedge clippers). She doesn't return on the eighth day (and > what woman would?) but leaves the country with the son of the house- > hold priest. (which, no doubt, left the house-hold priest in an > awkward position.) > Why wasn't the King's behaviour severely criticised in the Tale? (snip) > I don't understand the Bodhisatta's behaviour in the story. > And did the Buddha really use this story and tell a Brother "That > woman does you harm: formerly too you were dying of mental sickness > owing to her, and got life owing to wise men." > > Somehow, I don't think 'different times, different cultures' quite > explains this story. 15845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 6:49am Subject: slow motion Dear Howard and all, You need not tie up shoelaces slowly, no matter fast or slow: elements do not change. Seeing is still seeing, so are hardness and bodily feeling. Sati can slip in and be mindful of nama or rupa, but it is unpredictable when, doing something slowly or quickly. If you could plan sati, it would not be anatta. The conditions are listening, considering the namas and rupas of your life. Before we may have been neglectful when tying up shoelaces, but since we are talking about it (thank you Suan) there may be conditions for a short moment of sati. Best wishes from Nina. 15846 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 6:49am Subject: animal talk Dear Sarah, I remember late Ven. Dhammadharo telling us, when talking about kings, one can remember that even a king will die. Sarah, you remember that I was sad when in Sri Lanka there was talk about flowers instead of Dhamma talk. But this talk can be with metta and sympathetic joy, concern for the others. Even talking about naked Frank is not necessarily animal talk. Frank was born as a naked babe, and in no time there is the dying moment. When his body is burnt, there is nothing left of his beautiful attire, he is naked, and also of his naked body nothing is left. Maranasati. Best wishes, Nina. 15847 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 6:49am Subject: anapanasati,Part 7, conclusion. Rob Ep ***** Part 7. Perfection of Clear Vision (vijja) and Deliverance (vimutti). We read in the anapanasati sutta (transl by ven. Nyanatiloka): The same is stated about the other enlightenment factors With regard to the word seclusion (viveka), which is seclusion from defilements, we read about the meaning in the Co to the ³Root of Existence² (Mulapariyaya sutta, as tr. by Ven. Bodhi)that there are five kinds of seclusion, or abandoning: by substitution of opposite factors(tadanga pahana), by suppression (in jhana), by eradication (by the four paths), by tranquillization ( by the four fruitions) and by escape (nibbana). As regards abandoning by substitution of opposite factors (tadanga pahana), this occurs during the development of the stages of insight. The personality view is abandoned by the first stage of insight: defining nama and rupa, distinquishing their different characteristics, and by each of the higher stages there is abandoning by opposite factors. As to the words of the sutta, fading away (viraga) and cessation (nirodha), thes have the same meaning as seclusion, viveka. As to the words, ³resulting in relinquishment², as the Visuddhimagga VIII, 236) explained, this is relinquishment as giving up (of defilements) and as entering into nibbana. We read: we read that also the path is called both relinquishment as giving up and relinquishment as entering into. We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta: The Co states that it is thus elsewhere (in other texts), but that in this sutta it is handed down that the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect the mundane enlightenment factors, and that these perfect clear vision (vijjå), deliverance (vimutti), fruition (phala) and nibbana, which are lokuttara. Because in this sutta ³clear vision and deliverance² designate clear vision, fruition (phala) and nibbana.> Final conclusion: I feel as if I have come to the end of a long journey through this study of anapana sati. I am very impressed by the Intro to the Sutta: the foremost disciples of the Buddha, arahats, instructed the new bhikkhus. The Buddha waited with the invitation ceremony until the Komudian festival, so that the bhikkhus could attain the unattained, realize the unrealized. The Buddha explained to them anapana sati because they were very interested in this subject. He explained mindfulness of breathing in four tetrads, groups of four, each of them combined subsequently with the four foundations of mindfulness. The Visuddhimagga gives a detailed explanation of the way to be mindful of breath, to develop it so that jhana is reached. Buddhaghosa did not create this way of development himself, he was most faithful to the old traditions he found, to the teachers of old. He very seldom added a thought of his own. I do not think ,if this way of development is simplified, such as following the movement of the abdomen, that there will be jhana as result. If jhana is not reached, and there are not the masteries (vasis) in jhana, such as attaining and emerging at any time, at any place, samatha, the development of calm, cannot be a foundation for vipassana. As Jon said, And also: I would add:the bhikkhus the sutta was addressed to were highly adept, they were arahats or they had accumulations to attain arahatship. We read even after the first tetrad in the Visuddhimagga: We also read in the Vis. VIII, 155: We read about the fourth jhana, and in this jhana no breathing occurs (Vis. VIII, 209). This shows again how subtle this meditation subject is, it becomes hardly perceptible when one is more advanced, and then not at all perceptible. If we would try now to notice breathing, how could we plan to notice it with kusala citta? This shows that the very beginning is already most difficult. One may believe that breath is a concept, but now I will just repeat a Co. passage to the first tetrad: The other three tetrads refer respectively to the contemplation of feelings in feelings, citta in citta, dhammas in dhammas. As we have read, the first three tetrads deal with calm and insight and the fourth deals with insight alone. The End. ******* Nina. 15848 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 6:49am Subject: Perfections, Ch 5, Wisdom, no. 11 Perfections, Ch 5, Wisdom, no. 11 We can see that it is important not to have regret after we have given something away. When we have regret, it is evident that we cling and that we have attachment to the object we give away, but this object is only something outside us. In reality there is not anybody who can possess it or who can be the owner all the time. We should be mindful of the ³momentary death² of realities. When we have seen an object just for an extremely short moment, attachment to it arises, but at all moments when there is no seeing, there is no visible object anymore. Paññå and all kinds of kusala must have sufficient strength so that one is able to further develop and accumulate them time and again, for an endlessly long time, from life to life. Paññå has to be developed so that we know the nature of our citta, and understand what is beneficial and what not, when there is kusala citta and when there is akusala citta. We may have regret after we have given something away, because of our clinging. However, when satipaììhåna arises, we can notice that we cling to the nåma and rúpa that appear, and that we do not want to let go of them, that we do not want to give up the idea of self, being or person. The stages of insight are of many degrees, its development is a gradual process, because it is so difficult to give up nåma and rúpa. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², the Commentary to the ³Book of Analysis², (Ch 4, Classification of the Truths, 85), states about the fourth noble Truth, the Path: ...the Truth of the Path has the characteristic of outlet, its function is to abandon defilements, it manifests itself as emergence... The Commentary explains that apart from the Path, there is no other ³outlet², no way out, and that this is true; that it is not otherwise. The ³Dispeller of Delusion² mentions that some people deny the four noble Truths and proclaim that the truth of dukkha is different, and the same for the other three truths. With regard to the fourth Truth, the Path, the ŒDispeller of Delusion² explains that the wise know that the Path is a Truth, because it is truly an outlet. With these words it has been refuted that the Path is not an outlet, not a way out. Each time when sati arises and is aware of the characteristics of realities and investigates them so that the characteristic of nåma, the dhamma which experiences, can be distinguished from the characteristic of rúpa which appears, the Path is developed. This is the Path that is a true way out, leading to the eradication of defilements. Hence it has been said that the wise know that the Path is a Truth, that it is the only way leading to the eradication of defilements. We read further in the ³Dispeller of Delusion² about the origin of dukkha which is craving: No other source of dukkha but craving, Nor aught that source provides but dukkha: This certainty in causing dukkha Is why it is considered truth. We read further on about the origin of dukkha, that the Buddha anounced the Truth of dukkha first and after that the Truth of the origin of dukkha. He explained that dukkha would not arise without conditions and that its arising is not due to creation by a lord creator, etc. but that it is due to craving. ***** 15849 From: Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] One Single Excellent Night Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/22/02 3:09:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > It is Sunday evening here. I was printing off a page to carry > through the busy day in the front of my work diary as a Dhamma > reminder. Perhaps someone else may enjoy it too. > This elegant and beautiful excerpt is from the translation by Bhikkhu > Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi of: > Majjhima Nikaya 133 Mahakaccanabhaddekaratta Sutta. 'Maha Kaccana and > One Single Excellent Night' > > "Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes; > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; > Let him know that and be sure of it, > Invincibly, unshakeably. > Today the effort must be made; > Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? > No bargain with Mortality > Can keep him and his hordes away, > But one who dwells thus ardently, > Relentlessly, by day, by night - > It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, > Who has had a single excellent night." > > metta, > Christine > ================================ This is a beautiful sutta! Thank you. It says just enough to direct one's attention away from reminiscing and from fantasizing over what may yet be, and towards what actually happens. It is a beautifully to-the-point skillful lesson. The Mahayanists picked up on this, adding what is noticed when examining only current actualities, saying something to the effect that the past is gone, the future is not here, and the present is ungraspable. (This addition, of course, gives away what is to be directly discovered by looking! Better, I think, to look, and see, and gasp (not grasp! ;-) with amazement. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15850 From: Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] slow motion Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/22/02 10:34:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard and all, > You need not tie up shoelaces slowly, no matter fast or slow: elements do > not change. Seeing is still seeing, so are hardness and bodily feeling. > Sati > can slip in and be mindful of nama or rupa, but it is unpredictable when, > doing something slowly or quickly. If you could plan sati, it would not be > anatta. The conditions are listening, considering the namas and rupas of > your life. Before we may have been neglectful when tying up shoelaces, but > since we are talking about it (thank you Suan) there may be conditions for > a > short moment of sati. > Best wishes > from Nina. > ============================ Yes, seeing is just seeing, but cognizing is cognizing. (Question:What was written on the shirt of that man who just ran by? Answer: I don't know - he went by too fast!) From my experience, as concentration and mindfulness grow during meditation, events do slow down (for the meditating observer), but that stage needs to be reached. For all but the meditation master, when *commencing* meditation on any events that *can* be slowed down, slowing them down helps one get started. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15851 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meeting in Niagara Falls, Rob Ep. Dear Nina and Rob Ep., I think it properly belongs on the Pali discussion list, but we could make an exception and do it here if there is no objection from the members. Since Soma Thera's The Way of Mindfulness may be coming up for study here and since the threefold mindfulness passage was left out of his translation we can try to fill in the gap with our own attempt at a translation and study of it (using ~Naa.namoli translation as a guide). I think the passage occurs in five different commentaries which can be compared for its accuracy. The first step will be to prepare a text for study in an email format which I will do but I think it would be best to post just a line or two of it at a time. Any member would be welcome to participate in the discussion or the translation with comments and questions even if they don't know much Pali. A note to members: The Pali Study Group (psg) that Nina refers to is one that I set up in early February last year as a special list for members of dsg and friends who are interested in learning Pali and studying the texts in the original. It's a closed (private) list with only 15 members at present and is not so active as here on dsg. Membership is by invitation only but if any dsg member is interested in joining psg please contact me off-list at jimanderson_on@y... although there is no guarantee of automatic acceptance. I like to keep the membership to no more than 10% of the dsg total. So there is room for more members. Best wishes, Jim > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > N: Also in the Samanna Phalasutta, looking ahead, etc. we find them. They > > can vary at different places. > > J: I think it would be very good to > > > do an in-depth study of the Pali original which is about a page long. > > N: I am all in !!! How and where? If it is in the Pali study, Rob Ep will > > protest loudly. > > Best wishes > > from Nina. > > yes, I want to see it! I want to see it! > > : ) > > robert ep. 15852 From: Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 1:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati,Part 7, conclusion. Rob Ep Here's an interesting article on anapanasati: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed058.htm Larry 15853 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 2:00pm Subject: Re: slow motion Hi Howard, Nina and all, My sons are musically gifted (unlike their father). We have a different perspective when we listen to music. I hear music at a very superficial level. They AUTOMATICALLY hear key signatures, chord progressions, structure, etc. in real-time. They don't have to slow the music down or concentrate on the music to hear these things, it happens naturally. They were born with with a talent (from previous lives, I am sure), but that was not enough. To develop this talent, they had to study music theory and spend time practicing listening to music under the guidance of a qualfied teacher. I see mindfulness of the present moment in a similar way. We learn some theory (Abhidhamma, sati, papanca, etc.), we practice noting (meditation) and at some point, mindfulness of the present moment, in real-time, starts to occur. I am not yet able to achieve mindfulness of the present moment in real-time, but I believe that it can be done. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 9/22/02 10:34:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > writes: > > > > Dear Howard and all, > > You need not tie up shoelaces slowly, no matter fast or slow: elements do > > not change. Seeing is still seeing, so are hardness and bodily feeling. > > Sati > > can slip in and be mindful of nama or rupa, but it is unpredictable when, > > doing something slowly or quickly. If you could plan sati, it would not be > > anatta. The conditions are listening, considering the namas and rupas of > > your life. Before we may have been neglectful when tying up shoelaces, but > > since we are talking about it (thank you Suan) there may be conditions for > > a > > short moment of sati. > > Best wishes > > from Nina. > > > ============================ > Yes, seeing is just seeing, but cognizing is cognizing. (Question:What > was written on the shirt of that man who just ran by? Answer: I don't know - > he went by too fast!) From my experience, as concentration and mindfulness > grow during meditation, events do slow down (for the meditating observer), > but that stage needs to be reached. For all but the meditation master, when > *commencing* meditation on any events that *can* be slowed down, slowing them > down helps one get started. > > With metta, > Howard > 15854 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Dear Nina, RobEp and All, Thank you for your explanations, though I don't find them altogether satisfying. The Jataka Tale in question was not about a happy marriage or the loveliness of women. It was not a question of men having a wandering eye (nudge,nudge - wink, wink). It was about a powerful man 'loaning' his powerless wife as a favour to another man for a week, with no consultation with her, no protection of her and no thought of her feelings, and then there being general condemnation (including by the Bodhisatta and Buddha) of the woman for escaping from the Person, who proceeded to dwell in insightless self-pity aided and abetted by all. I was concerned not by a modern day human rights issue - though there was an element of that too. (And human rights are timeless, whether they are granted or not) It is an issue of whether or not the old stories ought be repeated and reprinted (whether in a hard copy edition or on the internet) when the major story line is questionable and when it shows the Bodisatta and Buddha either accepting, not noticing, or acquiesing in situations that decent people today would not. I think this story and any like it, could be 'stumbling blocks' to many people spiritually. My understanding of the Buddha's teaching is that he never wavered from stating the truth, morally or spiritually. And in the time the Tale was allegedly being told (the time of the Buddha), he was often teaching on how we are to behave morally and spiritually towards each other The question for me is "Are the Jataka Tales (this one and any like it of the 550 in print) meant to be infallible and sacred revelations, literally Word of the Buddha" - IF NOT , than that (IMO) should be PLAINLY STATED; if so, if they are to be accepted with the same authority as the Suttas, then I find I am in deep spiritual trouble, as I would be placed in a position of "This I can't believe; This I won't accept". I take small comfort from Cowells' Preface to The Jataka or Stories of the Buddha's Former Births. "Jataka legends occur even in the Canonical Pitakas; thus the Sukha- vihari Jataka and the Tittira Jataka, which are respectively the 10th and the 37th in this volume, are found in the Culla Vagga, vii 1 and vi 6, and similarly the Khandhavatta Jataka, which ... is found in the Culla Vagga v. 6; and there are several other examples. So too one of the minor books of the Sutta Pitala (the Cariya Pitaka) consists of 35 Jatakas told in verse; and ten at least of these can be identified in the volumes of our present collection already published; Some of the birth-stories are evidently Buddhistic and entirely depend for their point on some custom or idea peculiar to Buddhism; but many are pieces of folk-lore which have floated about the world for ages as the stray waifs of literature and are liable everywhere to be appropriated by any casual claimant. The same stories may thus in the course of their long wanderings, come to be recognised under widely different aspects, as when they are used by Boccaccio or Poggio merely as merry tales, or by some Welsh bard to embellish king Arthur's legendary glories, or by some Buddhist samana or mediaeval friar to add point to his discourse. Chaucer unwittingly puts a Jataka story into the mouth of his Pardonere when he tells his tale of 'the ryotoures three'; and another appears in Herodotus as the popular explanation of the sudden rise of the Alcmaeonidae through Megacles' marriage with Cleisthenes' daughter and the rejection of his rival Hippocleides." <<<<<>>>> "We have translated the quasi-historical introductions which always precede the different birth-stories, as they are an essential part of the plan of the original work, - since they link each tale with some special incident in the Buddha's life, which tradition venerates as the occasion when he is supposed to have recalled the forgotten scene of a long past existence to his contemporaries. But it is an interesting question for future investigation how far they contain any historical data. They appear at first sight to harmonise with the framework of the Pitakas; but I confess that I have no confidence in their historical credibility - they seem to me rather the laboured invention of a later age, like the legendary history of the early centuries of ancient Rome." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The Buddha spoke to a backsliding monk, and thus, he would not advocate the > benefit of a happy marriage, and the loveliness of women. The essence is in > the stanzas of the Jataka, and the story around it is in the Commentary to > the Jataka. Let us look at the essence, explained by A. Sujin: > something away. When we have regret, it is evident that we cling and that we > have attachment to the object we give away, but this object is only > something outside us. In reality there is not anybody who can possess it or > who can be the owner all the time. We should be mindful of the ³momentary > death² of realities.> > In the story there is nothing about women's rights, another culture. The > ancestors of the King of Thailand had more than one spouse, different mores. > I did not think much about it when reading, I thought of the lesson taught. > But not all Jatakas will appeal to everyone, I understand. > Kindest regards, > Nina. > op 21-09-2002 11:38 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > > > I didn't fully comprehend the Jataka tale (Dasannaka-Jataka No. 401 p > > 207 Vol iii) used to illustrate the danger and disadvantage of > > clinging. I find this example quite concerning. The Tale is said to > > teach that 'when one gives something one should not regret it > > afterwards'. But what did it teach about wise consideration, about > > giving only what ought to be given, about non-harming and not abusing > > power, consideration for others, morality, compassion, sensitivity, > > love? > > > > The story basically is about the King of Magadha and his beautiful > > Queen. The son of the house-hold priest goes off his food because > > he sees the Queen and lusts after her. (must have already tried all > > the usual strategies). The King sends for him, and says,"I give her > > to you for seven days, spend those days at your house and on the > > eighth send her back." (This is his wife - a human being here, not a > > set of hedge clippers). She doesn't return on the eighth day (and > > what woman would?) but leaves the country with the son of the house- > > hold priest. (which, no doubt, left the house-hold priest in an > > awkward position.) > > Why wasn't the King's behaviour severely criticised in the Tale? (snip) > > I don't understand the Bodhisatta's behaviour in the story. > > And did the Buddha really use this story and tell a Brother "That > > woman does you harm: formerly too you were dying of mental sickness > > owing to her, and got life owing to wise men." > > > > Somehow, I don't think 'different times, different cultures' quite > > explains this story. 15855 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Dear Chritine, Not all details can be given in each story. You say "It was about a > powerful man 'loaning' his powerless wife as a favour to another man > for a week, with no consultation with her, no protection of her and > no thought of her feelings, and then there being general condemnation " It might seem that way when we put in our own ideas but in fact when the bodhisatta gives away his wife or children etc. he never gives unless they are ready. "Asked for his own children, wife, slaves, workers, and servants, the Great Man does not give them while they are as yet unwilling to go, afflicted with grief. But when they are willing and joyful, then he gives them. But if he knows that those who ask for them are demonic beings-ogres, demons, or goblins-or men of cruel disposition, then he does not give them away*(cariyapitaka attakatha) http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm These chidren and wives are also beings of great merit and they too wish to give and are ready to endure any hardship on their own path to parinibbana . The Bodhisatta gives them not though any disdain but because they are the most valued of all that he clings to. He is ready even to let go of his most loved ones. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Nina, RobEp and All, > > Thank you for your explanations, though I don't find them altogether > satisfying. The Jataka Tale in question was not about a happy > marriage or the loveliness of women. It was not a question of men > having a wandering eye (nudge,nudge - wink, wink). It was about a > powerful man 'loaning' his powerless wife as a favour to another man > for a week, with no consultation with her, no protection of her and > no thought of her feelings, and then there being general condemnation > (including by the Bodhisatta and Buddha) of the woman for escaping > from the Person, who proceeded to dwell in insightless self-pity > aided and abetted by all. > I was concerned not by a modern day human rights issue - > though there was an element of that too. (And human rights are > timeless, whether they are granted or not) It is an issue of whether > or not the old stories ought be repeated and reprinted (whether in a > hard copy edition or on the internet) when the major story line is > questionable and when it shows the Bodisatta and Buddha either > accepting, not noticing, or acquiesing in situations that > decent people today would not. I think this story and any like it, > could > be 'stumbling blocks' to many people spiritually. My understanding > of the Buddha's teaching is that he never wavered from stating the > truth, morally or spiritually. And in the time the Tale was allegedly > being told (the time of the Buddha), he was often teaching on how we > are to behave morally and spiritually towards each other > > The question for me is "Are the Jataka Tales (this one and any like > it of the 550 in print) meant to be infallible and sacred > revelations, literally Word of the Buddha" - IF NOT , than that (IMO) > should be PLAINLY STATED; if so, if they are to be accepted with the > same authority as the Suttas, then I find I am in deep spiritual > trouble, as I would be placed in a position of "This I can't > believe; This I won't accept". > > 15856 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Dear Robert, I can relate a little to what you are saying - For example, the only way to happiness within families as children grow towards adulthood, is for parents and children to gradually and truly relinquish each other. Any parent will know this is a hard, hard thing to do and must be consciously and constantly practised for the ultimate freedom of all. It doesn't mean not loving them in the best sense of the word, it just means there is no possessiveness, no expectations, no doomed investment in them as the sole source of one's happiness. i.e. like any truly loving relationship should be. It is a developing process - one that merely prevents worse sorrow happening when either one forcefully breaks free (usually the child). In a sense it may be even 'imposed' by the parent, slowly but skillfully, for the ultimate good of all. And when you quote "the Great Man does not give them while they are as yet unwilling to go, afflicted with grief. But when they are willing and joyful, then he gives them", perhaps it is a spiritual version of this being described (but seeming so very alien). However - I think in the instance of Jataka Dasannaka (no. 401 vol iii) the Bodhisatta was not the Giver. The Bodhisatta was Senaka 'the king's counsellor in things temporal and spiritual'. Moggallana and Sariputta were also wise counsellors of the king. King Maddava was not giving in the sense you describe above. There seems to be no spiritual process occurring. The King was a 'lender', even a 'renter', depending on what emotional 'return' he was receiving in exchange (maybe only 'Oh what a popular fellow I'll be'). He stipulated that he should get his wife back after the other man had 'taken his delight with her' for seven days. That indicates a number of things about the character of the man, 'lack of clinging' not being one of them. In the sequence of the Paramis, Giving is followed by Virtue because Virtue purifies both the donor and the recipient, and, while Giving benefits others, Virtue prevents the affliction of others. (From A Treatise on the Paramis by Bhikkhu Bodhi). King Maddava was the back-sliding Brother in the Buddha's time mentioned by Nina. The queen was the wife of the Brother (previously the King) when he was a layman. She seems to draw the short straw every time. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear Chritine, > > Not all details can be given in each story. You say "It was about a > > powerful man 'loaning' his powerless wife as a favour to another > man > > for a week, with no consultation with her, no protection of her and > > no thought of her feelings, and then there being general > condemnation " > > It might seem that way when we put in our own ideas but in fact when > the bodhisatta gives away his wife or children etc. he never gives > unless they are ready. > "Asked for his own children, wife, slaves, workers, and servants, > the Great Man does not give them while they are as yet unwilling to > go, afflicted with grief. But when they are willing and joyful, then > he gives them. But if he knows that those who ask for them are > demonic beings-ogres, demons, or goblins-or men of cruel disposition, > then he does not give them away*(cariyapitaka attakatha) > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of% 20insight.htm > These chidren and wives are also beings of great merit and they too > wish to give and are ready to endure any hardship on their own path > to parinibbana . > The Bodhisatta gives them not though any disdain but because they are > the most valued of all that he clings to. He is ready even to let go > of his most loved ones. > Robert > > > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Dear Nina, RobEp and All, > > > > Thank you for your explanations, though I don't find them > altogether > > satisfying. The Jataka Tale in question was not about a happy > > marriage or the loveliness of women. It was not a question of men > > having a wandering eye (nudge,nudge - wink, wink). It was about a > > powerful man 'loaning' his powerless wife as a favour to another > man > > for a week, with no consultation with her, no protection of her and > > no thought of her feelings, and then there being general > condemnation > > (including by the Bodhisatta and Buddha) of the woman for escaping > > from the Person, who proceeded to dwell in insightless self-pity > > aided and abetted by all. > > I was concerned not by a modern day human rights issue - > > though there was an element of that too. (And human rights are > > timeless, whether they are granted or not) It is an issue of > whether > > or not the old stories ought be repeated and reprinted (whether in > a > > hard copy edition or on the internet) when the major story line is > > questionable and when it shows the Bodisatta and Buddha either > > accepting, not noticing, or acquiesing in situations that > > decent people today would not. I think this story and any like it, > > could > > be 'stumbling blocks' to many people spiritually. My understanding > > of the Buddha's teaching is that he never wavered from stating the > > truth, morally or spiritually. And in the time the Tale was > allegedly > > being told (the time of the Buddha), he was often teaching on how > we > > are to behave morally and spiritually towards each other > > > > The question for me is "Are the Jataka Tales (this one and any like > > it of the 550 in print) meant to be infallible and sacred > > revelations, literally Word of the Buddha" - IF NOT , than that > (IMO) > > should be PLAINLY STATED; if so, if they are to be accepted with > the > > same authority as the Suttas, then I find I am in deep spiritual > > trouble, as I would be placed in a position of "This I can't > > believe; This I won't accept". > > > > 15857 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 8:58am Subject: Registration Citta Hi All, Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Chart 3.3, shows 11 types of citta able to peform the function of registration: - Citta #19 (Rootless Unwholesome Resultant Investigating with Equqanimity) - Citta #26 (Rootless Wholesome Resultant Investigating with Joy) - Citta #27 (Rootless Wholesome Resultant Investigating with Equqanimity) - Citta #39 - #46 (Beautiful Sense Sphere Resultant) Here are my questions: 1. This chart was prepared by U Silananda. In an updated set of charts dated November 2000, U Silanda did not include Citta #26 (i.e. investigating with joy) as a possible Registration citta. In the November 2000 update, U Silanda did correct a number of the original charts, but this change was not mentioned. Any idea which is correct? 2. Since the registration citta takes the same object as the other cittas in the process (except bhavanga), it makes sense that citta #19 must be the registration citta when the vipaka giving rise to the object is akusala (citta #19 is the only akusala option). I am therefore going to assume that citta #27 is the natural registration citta when the vipaka is kusala. This causes me to ask: a) when would citta #26 arise as registration citta (assuming that it is a viable option - see question 1. above)? b) when would citta #39 - #46 arise as a registration citta? Thanks, Rob M :-) 15858 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 9:33am Subject: More questions on sense door process (quanities of cittas) Hi All, For a "very slight object", there are many past bhavanga cittas then two vibrating bhavanga (no arresting bhavanga). Why two vibrating bhavanga cittas? For a "slight object", there are either two or three determining cittas before falling back into bhavanga. Why multiple determining cittas in this case? For a "great object" and a "very great object" (also for the mind door process) there are seven javana cittas. I know that the first is the weakest (it creates immediately effective kamma which will give its effect in the present existence, or will otherwise become defunct). I know that the last is the second weakest (it creates subsequently effective kamma which will bear appropriate fruit in the immediate next life, or will otherwise become defunct). There are five cittas in the middle (they create indefinitely effective kamma which will give its appropriate effects whenever circumstances permit, starting from the existence after the present one until the being gains total liberation from samsara). Why five? For a "very great object" (also for a "clear object" in the mind door process), there are two registration cittas. Why two? Thanks, Rob M :-) 15859 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:dukkha, to Ken H Dear Ken H and Christine, I am joining Christine in her observations about your posts. We want to encourage you to continue, we do like your posts. As Christine says, Everybody has after thoughts, we can always make more perfect what we write, but then we would never send in anything. Keep courage and good cheers, Nina. op 22-09-2002 10:08 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > > I understand (a little) of how you are feeling about your writing > disability - perhaps I understand more than you realise ... 15860 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again All tales, all writings can never be taken as absolute truth, as the story so told has already been written and interpreted by the writer himself. Not to mention, the writer may have presented in such a way that was acceptable to the culture at that time frame so that it may help Buddhism's acceptance at that time frame. I am a Christian (and a Buddhist), and I remember when I first got exposed to Christianity, I found many elements in Bible disturbing as well, but eventually came to an understanding that they are merely forms, and ultimately I came to appreciate the truth it was trying to convey to me. Perhaps these tales would not be suitable for introducing Buddhism to someone then. WL 15861 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 1:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Hi WL, Thank you for your reply. It is helping to sort things in general out for me. As you say, the story has already been written and interpreted by the writer himself, this, plus the cultural and time period filters would require most things to be taken with a grain of salt. I guess I was trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. Probably putting the Bodisatta and Buddha in the position of omniscient and omnipotent God who speaks to all people in all times. Better to accept that it just doesn't fit, and take what does. I could treat the Jataka Tales in this manner as many people take them as mere legends or morality tales. As you say, "Perhaps these tales would not be suitable for introducing Buddhism to someone." I think my problem has been in regarding the Buddhist scriptures as absolute truth. Today, on another List, someone equally concerned, printed a Sutta (text below) that is very confusing, confronting and causes deep hurt - in the sutta, the desperate woman's very mild behaviour is described coldly as 'discourteous' and 'this ugly action'. And the Suttas, I know, are regarded as Word of the Buddha. On the other list, the writer "half-hoped that these are later insertions, and might not reflect what the Buddha actually taught". But I think it does. And this has to be faced, not side- stepped, ignored or covered in sweet icing. Apparently there are other Suttas like it. How interesting that you combine the kindness, love and consolation of Christianity and the rational investigation of Buddhism. To be a Christian who practices buddhism ...... I came from Christianity to Buddhism, but never even thought it was remotely possible to combine the two. I know how a person believes and practices is deeply precious and private, but if you ever felt able to discuss the combining of Christianity and buddhism I would be very grateful to hear about it on or off list. metta, Christine ------------------------------------------ Udana I.8 Sangamaji Translated by John D, Ireland Thus have I heard. At one time the Lord was staying near Savatthi in the Jeta wood at Anathapindika's monastery. On that occasion the Venerable Sangamaji had arrived at Savatthi to see the Lord. The former wife of the Venerable Sangamaji, hearing that master Sangamaji had arrived at Savatthi, took her child and went to the Jeta Wood. Now at that time the Venerable Sangamaji was sitting at the foot of a certain tree to rest during the middle of the day. Then the former wife of the Venerable Sangamaji approached him and spoke these words: "I have a little son, recluse, support me." When this was said, the Venerable Sangamaji remained silent. A second time and a third time she said: "I have a little son, recluse, support me." And a third time the Venerable Sangamaji remained silent. Then the former wife of the Venerable Sangamaji put the child down in front of him and went away, saying: "This is your son, recluse, support him." But the Venerable Sangamaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to him. Then the former wife of the Venerable Sangamaji, having gone a short distance, looked back and saw that he was neither looking at the child nor speaking to him. On seeing this she thought: "This recluse does not even want his son!" She returned, took the child, and went away. With the divine eye which is purified and superhuman the Lord saw that discourteous behaviour* on the part of the Venerable Sangamaji's wife. Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance: He had no pleasure in her coming, Nor grief when she went away; Sangmaji, freed from ties,** Him I call a brahmin. Notes: * Imam evarupam vipakkaram. Comy.: This ugly action, namely, placing the son in his lap, which is unseemly for renunciants. ** Sanga: ties or attachments. Thre is a pun here on Sangamaji's name. He is freed from the five ties of lust, hate, delusion, conceit, and views (Comy.). ----------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Uan Chih Liu" wrote: > All tales, all writings can never be taken as absolute truth, as the story > so told has already been written and interpreted by the writer himself. > Not to mention, the writer may have presented in such a way that was > acceptable to the culture at that time frame so that it may help > Buddhism's acceptance at that time frame. I am a Christian (and a > Buddhist), and I remember when I first got exposed to Christianity, > I found many elements in Bible disturbing as well, but eventually > came to an understanding that they are merely forms, and ultimately I > came to appreciate the truth it was trying to convey to me. Perhaps > these tales would not be suitable for introducing Buddhism to someone > then. > > WL 15862 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 3:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Hi Christine, I see the Dhamma as a boat to help me cross the sea of samsara. Once I have crossed the sea, I have no more use for the boat and will not carry it with me. (I think that this idea comes from a Sutta where the Buddha warned monks not to be too attached to the Dhamma). Now in the time that this boat was built, it had a busty mermaid carved in the bow and gruesome little beasts painted on the sides. At the time that this boat was built, these additions were added "for luck" and made it easier for people to accept that the boat could be used by them as well. Today, we look down our noses at the superstition of our forefathers in adding these items. We use modern, rational thought and complain that they also weighed down the boat unnecessarily, perhaps making it less seaworthy. However, if we keep in mind that the boat is merely a means of transport, not meant to be an object of beauty and an object of attachment in itself, and we also keep in mind that at some point in the future, we are planning to abandon it when it is no longer needed, we can put aside our prejudices and focus on navigating the sea. Remember poor Manussa from my class notes? He put the key from the Buddha on the wall. He worshiped it, recited its virtues and studied it in detail. He did everything but use it to open the prison door. Christine, does this perspective help you sleep better? Thanks, Rob M :-) 15863 From: Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 3:52pm Subject: Way 1, Message "Way Of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Message The Satipatthana Sutta, the Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness, is generally regarded as the canonical Buddhist text with the fullest instructions on the system of meditation unique to the Buddha's own dispensation. The practice of Satipatthana meditation centers on the methodical cultivation of one simple mental faculty readily available to all of us at any moment. This is the faculty of mindfulness, the capacity for attending to the content of our experience as it becomes manifest in the immediate present. What the Buddha shows in the sutta is the tremendous, but generally hidden, power inherent in this simple mental function, a power that can unfold all the mind's potentials culminating in final deliverance from suffering. To exercise this power, however, mindfulness must be systematically cultivated, and the sutta shows exactly how this is to be done. The key to the practice is to combine energy, mindfulness, and clear comprehension in attending to the phenomena of mind and body summed up in the "four arousings of mindfulness": body, feelings, consciousness, and mental objects. Most contemporary meditation teachers explain Satipatthana meditation as a means for generating insight (vipassana). While this is certainly a valid claim, we should also recognize that satipatthana meditation also generates concentration (samadhi). Unlike the forms of meditation which cultivate concentration and insight sequentially, Satipatthana brings both these faculties into being together, though naturally, in the actual process of development, concentration will have to gain a certain degree of stability before insight can exercise its penetrating function. In Satipatthana, the act of attending to each occasion of experience as it occurs in the moment fixes the mind firmly on the object. The continuous attention to the object, even when the object itself is constantly changing, stabilizes the mind in concentration, while the observation of the object in terms of its qualities and characteristics brings into being the insight knowledges. To practice Satipatthana successfully a student will generally require a sound theoretical knowledge of the practice along with actual training preferably under the guidance of a qualified teacher. The best source of theoretical knowledge, indeed the indispensable source, is the Satipatthana Sutta itself. However, though the sutta is clear and comprehensible enough as it stands, the instructions it offers are extremely concise, often squeezing into a few simple guidelines directions that might need several pages to explain in a way adequate for successful practice. For this reason, from an early period, the ancient masters of Buddhist meditation began to supply more detailed instructions based on their own practical experience. These instructions eventually evolved into a lengthy commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, which was then incorporated into the complete commentaries on the two collections in which the sutta appears, namely, the Digha Nikaya and the Majjhima Nikaya. The two commentaries that have come down to us today, based on the older Sinhala commentaries, are called the Sumangala-vilasini (on the Digha Nikaya) and the Papañca-sudani (on the Majjhima Nikaya). These commentaries are ascribed to Acariya Buddhaghosa, an Indian thera who worked in Sri Lanka in the 5th century A.C., but are securely based on the old commentaries which record the explanations devised by the ancient masters of the Dhamma. The commentary has in turn been further elucidated by a sub-commentary, or tika, by Acariya Dhammapala, who worked in South India, near Kancipura, perhaps a century or two after the time of Buddhaghosa. This book, The Way of Mindfulness, contains all the authorized instructions on Satipatthana meditation passed down in the Theravada tradition: the Satipatthana Sutta stemming from the Buddha himself (in the more concise version of the Majjhima Nikaya, which omits the detailed analysis of the Four Noble Truths found in the Digha Nikaya's Maha-satipatthana Sutta); the commentary by Buddhaghosa; and selections from the tika by Dhammapala. While the volume of material found here will certainly exceed the amount a beginner needs to start the practice, the book will prove itself useful at successive stages and will eventually become a trusted friend and advisor in all its manifold details. Thus the reader should not be intimidated by the detail and the sometimes formidable technical terminology, but should continue reading, selecting whatever material is found useful and leaving until later whatever presently seems difficult to grasp. The book was originally compiled in the late 1930s by Ven. Soma Thera (1898-1960), a bhikkhu of Sri Lanka, and has been maintained in print since the early 1940s. The Buddhist Publication Society in Kandy has published the work since 1967 in several editions. This latest version contains several minor changes in terminology authorized by the present writer. Christine Chan and her friends in the Buddhist Communities in Malaysia, as well as Rev. Suddhinand Janthagul from Thailand, who helped in the proof-reading of the Pali texts, deserve our congratulations and appreciation for their hard work in transcribing the book and for making it available for free distribution. I am sure this book will prove an invaluable road map for anyone who has entered the steep and rugged road of Satipatthana meditation, leading to final deliverance from suffering. Bhikkhu Bodhi Kandy, Sri Lanka 15864 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again --- Dear Christine, I arrived back in kumamoto last night and have just looked at the jataka. I think we see that it was not against the queens wishes that she went with the priest as it says "They became enamoured of each other and keeping it secret fled". This disturbed the King as he had hoped that she would only stay one week with the priest. What I take from this Jataka, one I like very much, is how one should give without attachment. I like to think my girlfriend finds all she needs with me (That is conceit). But then I travel often and surely she must find other men (almost) as attractive as me. If she went with one I would feel resentment but reading over this sutta lessens that, because I see that this is pure selfish clinging. I have no regard for the joy she is having or the pleasure her (hypothetical )lover is having. These days many Buddhists are keen on doing metta meditation where they project metta to all beings in the universe. But if we are still discriminating in such common situations and not even able to wish for the benefit of the others here and now then we are not sincere about metta at all. The Dhamma leads us to let go of clinging to people and to rather treating all as equal- no favouritism in Dhamma. On the other hand it is realistic and understands that we go step by step: The Kind needed the wise councel of Senaka to help him develop the parami of giving (which lessens clinging). You feel that there is no spritual progress occuring in this Jataka. Near the end Senaka (the bodhisatta) says : "If a man should give a gift nor regret the giving after, that a harder feat would be" And the king hearing these words reflected and thought how unworthy it was of him to have given and yet now to pine and sorrow. And so he was able to let go of the great clinging he had. This is spiritual progress. I am far from the stage of being able to freely let go of what I hold dear. But it helps me to be very relaxed at parties and the like when my girlfriend is chatting with other men enjoying herself. In my callow youth I would have begrudged her and the men even that tiny pleasure. Maybe one day, given profound conditions, I can take joy if I hear that she loves other men; and have the spirit of giving firmly embedded. . Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I can relate a little to what you are saying - For example, the only > way to happiness within families as children grow towards adulthood, > is for parents and children to gradually and truly relinquish each > other. Any parent will know this is a hard, hard thing to do and > must be consciously and constantly practised for the ultimate freedom > of all. It doesn't mean not loving them in the best sense of the > word, it just means there is no possessiveness, no expectations, no > doomed investment in them as the sole source of one's happiness. i.e. > like any truly loving relationship should be. It is a developing > process - one that merely prevents worse sorrow happening when either > one forcefully breaks free (usually the child). In a sense it may be > even 'imposed' by the parent, slowly but skillfully, for the ultimate > good of all. > And when you quote "the Great Man does not give them while they are > as yet unwilling to go, afflicted with grief. But when they are > willing and joyful, then he gives them", perhaps it is a spiritual > version of this being described (but seeming so very alien). > However - I think in the instance of Jataka Dasannaka (no. 401 vol > iii) the Bodhisatta was not the Giver. The Bodhisatta was > Senaka 'the king's counsellor in things temporal and spiritual'. > Moggallana and Sariputta were also wise counsellors of the king. > King Maddava was not giving in the sense you describe above. There > seems to be no spiritual process occurring. The King was > a 'lender', even a 'renter', depending on what emotional 'return' he > was receiving in exchange (maybe only 'Oh what a popular fellow I'll > be'). He stipulated that he should get his wife back after the other > man had 'taken his delight with her' for seven days. That indicates a > number of things about the character of the man, 'lack of clinging' > not being one of them. In the sequence of the Paramis, Giving is > followed by Virtue because Virtue purifies both the donor and the > recipient, and, while Giving benefits others, Virtue prevents the > affliction of others. (From A Treatise on the Paramis by Bhikkhu > Bodhi). > King Maddava was the back-sliding Brother in the Buddha's time > mentioned by Nina. The queen was the wife of the Brother (previously > the King) when he was a layman. She seems to draw the short straw > every time. > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > Dear Chritine, > > > > Not all details can be given in each story. You say "It was about a > > > powerful man 'loaning' his powerless wife as a favour to another > > man > > > for a week, with no consultation with her, no protection of her > and > > > no thought of her feelings, and then there being general > > condemnation " > > > > It might seem that way when we put in our own ideas but in fact > when > > the bodhisatta gives away his wife or children etc. he never gives > > unless they are ready. > > "Asked for his own children, wife, slaves, workers, and servants, > > the Great Man does not give them while they are as yet unwilling to > > go, afflicted with grief. But when they are willing and joyful, > then > > he gives them. But if he knows that those who ask for them are > > demonic beings-ogres, demons, or goblins-or men of cruel > disposition, > > then he does not give them away*(cariyapitaka attakatha) > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of% > 20insight.htm > > These chidren and wives are also beings of great merit and they too > > wish to give and are ready to endure any hardship on their own path > > to parinibbana . > > The Bodhisatta gives them not though any disdain but because they > are > > the most valued of all that he clings to. He is ready even to let > go > > of his most loved ones. > > Robert > > > > > > > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > Dear Nina, RobEp and All, > > > > > > Thank you for your explanations, though I don't find them > > altogether > > > satisfying. The Jataka Tale in question was not about a happy > > > marriage or the loveliness of women. It was not a question of men > > > having a wandering eye (nudge,nudge - wink, wink). It was about a > > > powerful man 'loaning' his powerless wife as a favour to another > > man > > > for a week, with no consultation with her, no protection of her > and > > > no thought of her feelings, and then there being general > > condemnation > > > (including by the Bodhisatta and Buddha) of the woman for > escaping > > > from the Person, who proceeded to dwell in insightless self- pity > > > aided and abetted by all. > > > I was concerned not by a modern day human rights issue - > > > though there was an element of that too. (And human rights are > > > timeless, whether they are granted or not) It is an issue of > > whether > > > or not the old stories ought be repeated and reprinted (whether > in > > a > > > hard copy edition or on the internet) when the major story line > is > > > questionable and when it shows the Bodisatta and Buddha either > > > accepting, not noticing, or acquiesing in situations that > > > decent people today would not. I think this story and any like > it, > > > could > > > be 'stumbling blocks' to many people spiritually. My > understanding > > > of the Buddha's teaching is that he never wavered from stating > the > > > truth, morally or spiritually. And in the time the Tale was > > allegedly > > > being told (the time of the Buddha), he was often teaching on how > > we > > > are to behave morally and spiritually towards each other > > > > > > The question for me is "Are the Jataka Tales (this one and any > like > > > it of the 550 in print) meant to be infallible and sacred > > > revelations, literally Word of the Buddha" - IF NOT , than that > > (IMO) > > > should be PLAINLY STATED; if so, if they are to be accepted with > > the > > > same authority as the Suttas, then I find I am in deep spiritual > > > trouble, as I would be placed in a position of "This I can't > > > believe; This I won't accept". 15865 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 5:29pm Subject: Re: Jataka Tales again Dear Christine, You have uncovered more examples that the Suttas recorded in the Pali Canon are not always "warm and fuzzy" and can be disturbing. However, remember that the Buddha is not here to defend himself. The Kalama Sutta is relevant here: "So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" -- then you should abandon them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-065.html The Kalama Sutta is applicable when we have doubts in the Buddha and the reliability of the Pali Canon. Bhikkhu Bodhi points out that it does not apply once we have confidence in the Buddha and his teachings (the ones we are currently reading). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay09.html Please share with us suttas that you do have confidence in as leading to the end of suffering. Thanks / Antony. 15866 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 5:52pm Subject: Re: Jataka Tales again - apology Dear Christine, I apologise for using the term "warm and fuzzy". I deviated from my usual practice of writing on an offline computer to contemplate more what I am saying. What I should have said was that the suttas don't always cause pleasant feelings. metta / Antony. >From: "Antony Woods" >Dear Christine, > >You have uncovered more examples that the Suttas recorded in the Pali Canon >are not always "warm and fuzzy" and can be disturbing. > >However, remember that the Buddha is not here to defend himself. > >The Kalama Sutta is relevant here: > >"So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, >by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by >agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This >contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These >qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities >are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, >lead to harm & to suffering" -- then you should abandon them.' Thus was it >said. And in reference to this was it said." >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-065.html > >The Kalama Sutta is applicable when we have doubts in the Buddha and the >reliability of the Pali Canon. >Bhikkhu Bodhi points out that it does not apply once we have confidence in >the Buddha and his teachings (the ones we are currently reading). >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay09.html > >Please share with us suttas that you do have confidence in as leading to >the end of suffering. > >Thanks / Antony. > 15867 From: Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Hello Christine, Just in passing why take all this literally as written (several hundred years after being spoken)? I have a comic book of Jataka tales from India, and I like this idea. Nice stories for children with good morals, like Aesop fables. (I've heard that they may have been inspired by some of the Jataka tales.) But it was written by, apparently, Hindus. Every single one, though immediately recognizable, misses the point, misstates the story. And, of course, they're somewhat altered for the format and by the story teller giving his version. So even if, dubiously, they're all from the Buddha why can't they have suffered some occasional distortions and mistakes in the re/telling? And why can't some new ones, of inferior quality, have snuck in? I would also argue that time and place and local mores are irrelevant. Or are such considerations relevant to the Dhamma itself? Is it a *local* phenomena? Hardly, so the position is inconsistent. Should we update the Vinaya to bring it into accord with contemporary ways? (Well, yes, but not for reasons of ethical relativism.) An enlightened person should be able to rise above the culture and im/moralities of their time. I'm going for the latter additions and changes theory you reject. metta, stephen 15868 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Dear Christine & All, Thank you for sharing your honest comments and reactions to the Jataka story. I think it’s useful to look at the tale (and the other sutta about the monk and the child) and our responses. I have been very interested to read what everyone has said so far. When I read the summary of the Jataka quickly as an installment from Nina in the series on ‘Perfections’, I didn’t think much about it -- just a little about dana and regret and ‘oh yes, very familiar’ and then forgotten. You then brought it back to our attention. I laughed a lot when I read your witty summary (sorry, for that) -- especially the comments about lending the hedge clippers -- and thought I’d read the original for myself. However, the original is in ‘Jataka Stories vols 111,1V’ and this is the middle text of the Jataka set that has been missing for a long time from our library. Everytime I go to pull out this volume, I go through a repeat story to myself of how ‘I must have lent it to someone ages ago’ and ‘how could someone borrow a dhamma text and not return it?’ and regret and more regret at having lent the text out. So the lesson for me when I read the tale is about how hard it is to share or give even something as small as a dhamma text, let alone a spouse or that which we really hold most dear of all. Harder still is to give and not feel any regret at all. When I read the reminders about how giving what one is most attached to (the wife could be replaced by a husband, a child, a dog or a computer) and not regretting afterwards and how this is harder than swallowing the sword in the tale, I can really appreciate the point. How very far most of us have to go. Here I am, years later, having regret about lending a text which wasn’t returned. I found these comments of K.Sujin’s helpful in the following installment from the ‘Perfections’: ..... “Paññå has to be developed so that we know the nature of our citta, and understand what is beneficial and what not, when there is kusala citta and when there is akusala citta. We may have regret after we have given something away, because of our clinging. However, when satipaììhåna arises, we can notice that we cling to the nåma and rúpa that appear, and that we do not want to let go of them, that we do not want to give up the idea of self, being or person.” ***** When I read a sutta or a tale, I accept it at face value. However, I also accept that, just like in real life when I hear about family or other problems, there are always more facts and details I don’t know. So I prefer not to jump to conclusions. In both the Jataka and the story about the monk, I just appreciate the difficulty of accumulating kusala and the temptations or excuses we make so easily for the opposite. You reminded us about the value of seeing the ‘presently arisen state’ with insight with the fine verse from “One Single Excellent Night”: ..... "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state;” ***** The ‘harming’ or ‘hurt’ as I understand, is on account of the thinking and dosa in the reactions, rather than in the sutta itself. We know little about the queen’s intentions and wishes and she may have received what she wished for in life. She may not have considered it a ‘short straw’ at all;-) For the king, he was able to have the good fortune to hear wise advice and to see that the root of all problems lies in attachment. So often, like in my story about the lent text and the regret, we miss precious opportunities to see the truth, though of course we all appreciate that different suttas or parts of the Abhidhamma will be more appropriate for each of us to hear at different times. Again from the ‘Perfections’: “We read further in the ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ about the origin of dukkha which is craving: ..... "No other source of dukkha but craving, Nor aught that source provides but dukkha: This certainty in causing dukkha Is why it is considered truth. We read further on about the origin of dukkha, that the Buddha anounced the Truth of dukkha first and after that the Truth of the origin of dukkha. He explained that dukkha would not arise without conditions and that its arising is not due to creation by a lord creator, etc. but that it is due to craving.” ***** Sarah ===== 15869 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Hi Christine, Re: "Udana I.8, Sangamaji, Translated by John D, Ireland", I have read one interpretation of this long tme ago. I will do the best I can to find it for you. I'm kinda intrigued by your statement that "How interesting that you combine the kindness, love and consolation of Christianity and the rational investigation of Buddhism". For me both Christianity and Buddhism have high elements of love and compassion for all beings. The practice of medication leading to the state of emptiness, or realization of a lack of inherent nature leads to the "equality of all beings" and therefore, compassion for all beings. To me, Christinity and Buddhism are two "boats" helping us to eventually cross the sea of samsara, or two "paths". Different paths are suitable for different people. For myself I later found Buddhism appealing to me because of my own philosophical nature. I surely love to discuss with you on the subject some more. WL 15870 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Dear WL, Welcome to DSG. You raise some interesting points in your first post (I believe). >Perhaps > these tales would not be suitable for introducing Buddhism to someone > then. .... The Jatakas are the section of the Tipitaka most often taught to children in one form or other. Like you, I think that they are not so simple and can be understood on many levels as we're finding with just one example here. As I sometimes find with a group of children, each will respond very differently according to accumulations or tendencies. I'd be glad to hear more about how you became interested in Buddhism and any further comments on any of the discussions here. Where do you live, I wonder? Best regards, Sarah ==== --- Uan Chih Liu wrote: > All tales, all writings can never be taken as absolute truth, as the > story > so told has already been written and interpreted by the writer himself. 15871 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi KE, Thanks for this info and yes, I'd guessed from your name that you lived in Singapore (in Hong Kong we have Ng but not Eng as a surname). > I assist in teaching Basic Buddhism and Meditation. > > The system of meditation instruction I give consist of 4 stages: > (You can find it in one of the dropdownlist @ MentalCulture.org below > the logo.) > > 1. Metta - Reduce hatred > 2. 32 parts of the body - Reduce attachment of the body > 3. Jhana - increase mental concentration, pre-requisite for vipassana > 4. Vipassana - nama-rupa, rising-falling, anatta, and nibbana > > Stage 1: Practise loving kindness towards all beings in all > directions. This can be easily done by you (instructions are also > available @ MentalCulture.org). ..... "easily done by you"....hmmm....Stage 1 sounds like a pretty tall order and one we've discussed quite a lot on DSG. Sometimes there isn't even any metta for just those we live with or those we meet on the bus or in the shop or at work;-) Thank you for sharing the other details as well. Look forward to any comments you have on any of the threads. Sarah ===== > > Stage 2: Visualise the removing of the 32 parts of your body > (available @ website) and put into containers in front of you. (Some > people find it disgusting, but it reduce the mind's attachement to > the body.) > > Stage 3: Jhana (Absortions - Mental Concentration) requires the pre- > exercises in Stage 1 & 2. It first starts with single-pointedness > concentration. (Training is provided by Singapore Phor Kar See Temple > every Sunday Morning), before developing into the 4 jhana states. > Although you can progress to Arupa-jhanna, however it is not > necessary for vipassana. At the 4th jhana stage where mind is very > concentrated, we will advise meditators to realise nama-rupa. > > Stage 4: Vipassana progress of the 4 stages of Sainthood. 15872 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts & Realities in Plain English <1> Hi Chris, Thanks for your encouragement and sorry for the delay in replying to this: --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, and all, > > You ask: "How can the 'actual' be known?" > Would this be when there is a reality appearing at one of the six > doorways, and sati (right mindfulness) is mindful of that reality, > and then panna (wisdom) directly penetrates and understands it? Not > sure of the 'How'. I don't think it can be 'made' to happen, maybe > it's a question of knowing the right conditions, or cultivating the > conditions? But how would that differ from a self controlling? ...... Yes, just as you say...sati and panna have to perform their functions and will do so when the conditions are right in spite of any wishing or urging rather than as a result of these. Like you also suggest, as soon as there is an idea of ‘cultivating the conditions’ isn’t there a ‘wishing’ or ‘hoping’ or ‘trying’ with an underlying idea of ‘self controlling’? Your comments are pretty astute, I think. Understanding this point is in itself a very important condition for understanding to develop further. There’s bound to be all sorts of wishing and trying, but these can be recognised for what they are: kinds of thinking, usually with attachment and different from the characteristics of wholesome viriya (effort) and chanda (zeal) which accompany wholesome states naturally. ..... > You also ask: "What about anatta? What does it matter?" > Without 'anatta' (which I don't understand, but which I 'feel' is > the truth) I would be on one of the sweet theistic spiritual paths. > Surely if there is No Anatta, there is No Buddhism. Life would be > much more comfortable (and familiar) with a soul and a Deity to give > commands, comfort, grant favours, control things (rather > erratically), and promise to 'fix' things (for true believers only) > somewhere in the future ... There would be none of this having to > take responsibility and do it all 'myself' - a God to praise and > implore, a Devil to blame and avoid ..... ..... Quite so.....so the ‘courage’ in understanding dhammas as anatta is apparent. ..... > In working with patients and relatives when there is birth and death, > people tend to share deep feelings regarding their ultimate beliefs > in life. Many are followers of the Christ, or followers of the > Prophet, or followers of the Veda and have had very significant > spiritual experiences (I wonder how can that be? why is it so?) that > has convinced them - beyond any shadow of doubt - that their way is > the only True Path. All of them had such unmovable certainty and > unshakeable faith about their experience ... what existence is all > about, and what the the culmination of all existence will be. Some of > them had genuine and loving concern that another might be on > the 'wrong path'. ..... Which makes the point that being guided by what seems to be our true experience is not sufficient as a guide. It also shows why it is essential to distinguish between concepts and realities, I think. ..... > > If one ever gets to the point of really 'knowing' that there is no > self, no person, no one; that there is nothing 'personal' that > continues; that each ever changing 'process' experiences > uncontrollable conditioned realities playing out whatever seeming > purposelessness it is that they play out (and, if, in the midst of > all this uncontrollability, the entity has 'managed' to eradicate > most or all defilements (and I wonder how that can be also)) ..... Of course, there is no entity to perform this task as I know you understand in theory at least.....just defilements to be understood and eventually eradicated. No self involved. ..... > then > the entity or 'process' achieves the prize of never being born again - > a difficult, incomprehensible, and wonderful goal to achieve - so I > am told. This prize that is the goal, the aim, the final attainment > of all buddhist practice - this is Nibbana that is indescribable but > continues endlessly to be the subject of intellectual speculation. > (And haven't I just substituted the words 'entity' and 'process' > for 'self' .... ?) > Anatta matters to me, but I still find it difficult to understand, > particularly regarding kamma, progress on the path and nibbana. ..... As you say, no entity to be reborn. .just various namas and rupas as now. When the idea of self is eradicated, there is bound to be less and less clinging to oneself in any form and thereby less attachment to future lives. Just as maybe you have no interest in going to Disneyland, so there just aren’t any conditions to think or speculate about it. For those without any (or reduced) interest (read: attachment) in a self or in nibbana or in rebirth or result of kamma, there will be fewer conditions to speculate. So it all comes back to seeing the presently arisen states, rather than reviving the past “Or on the future build his hopes”. Thanks for your comments (let me know if mine aren’t clear) and Nina, I appreciated your encouragement too. Sarah ===== 15873 From: mentalculture Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi, Sarah, Let's Share Some Metta Experience. What is metta (Loving-Kindness)? For a start, we teach people to wish other people (beings) well and happy regardless of their relationship and physical and mental attributes in all directions. This is the practice (instructions). In Buddhism, metta has been equated to a mother's love to protect at the cost of her life for her only new-born child. That is the closest definition you can get. What is this practise going to achieve (final result)? To create a mental state call Metta (Loving-Kindness). Once you are apt at creating such a mental state, you can just do it by a single thought (just like a switch). By directing the (metta) mind, the beings receiving metta will calm down and feel at ease, well and happy. Try until you achieve this. When you practise Jhana (absorptions) with metta, it is known as Jhanic Metta. A very powerful weapon in conquering person with extreme hatred. You would be surprised that metta vary with intensity and can be directed by the mind. (Sakyamuni Buddha has demonstrated metta being applied towards a wild drunkard elephant.) Once you know metta, you will always want to be enveloped in metta, and radiating metta in all directions, a very natural progress. Metta Karuna Teo Kok Eng MentalCulture.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi KE, > > Thanks for this info and yes, I'd guessed from your name that you lived in > Singapore (in Hong Kong we have Ng but not Eng as a surname). > > > I assist in teaching Basic Buddhism and Meditation. > > > > The system of meditation instruction I give consist of 4 stages: > > (You can find it in one of the dropdownlist @ MentalCulture.org below > > the logo.) > > > > 1. Metta - Reduce hatred > > 2. 32 parts of the body - Reduce attachment of the body > > 3. Jhana - increase mental concentration, pre-requisite for vipassana > > 4. Vipassana - nama-rupa, rising-falling, anatta, and nibbana > > > > Stage 1: Practise loving kindness towards all beings in all > > directions. This can be easily done by you (instructions are also > > available @ MentalCulture.org). > ..... > "easily done by you"....hmmm....Stage 1 sounds like a pretty tall order > and one we've discussed quite a lot on DSG. Sometimes there isn't even any > metta for just those we live with or those we meet on the bus or in the > shop or at work;-) > > Thank you for sharing the other details as well. Look forward to any > comments you have on any of the threads. > > Sarah > ===== > > > > Stage 2: Visualise the removing of the 32 parts of your body > > (available @ website) and put into containers in front of you. (Some > > people find it disgusting, but it reduce the mind's attachement to > > the body.) > > > > Stage 3: Jhana (Absortions - Mental Concentration) requires the pre- > > exercises in Stage 1 & 2. It first starts with single-pointedness > > concentration. (Training is provided by Singapore Phor Kar See Temple > > every Sunday Morning), before developing into the 4 jhana states. > > Although you can progress to Arupa-jhanna, however it is not > > necessary for vipassana. At the 4th jhana stage where mind is very > > concentrated, we will advise meditators to realise nama-rupa. > > > > Stage 4: Vipassana progress of the 4 stages of Sainthood. 15874 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 2:27am Subject: Re: slow motion Hi Rob M I know you are only using music lessons as an analogy but I'd like to suggest that some people see Buddhism very much in that way. They want an interest in life; golf maybe, a musical instrument, or chess . . "What about yoga? Or Buddhism?" "OK, I'll take up Buddhism!" Contrary to first impressions, the Buddha's teaching is not about getting good at something difficult. It's right understanding right here, right now. Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Howard, Nina and all, > > My sons are musically gifted (unlike their father). We have a > different perspective when we listen to music. > > I hear music at a very superficial level. They AUTOMATICALLY hear > key signatures, chord progressions, structure, etc. in real-time. > > They don't have to slow the music down or concentrate on the music > to hear these things, it happens naturally. > > They were born with with a talent (from previous lives, I am sure), > but that was not enough. To develop this talent, they had to study > music theory and spend time practicing listening to music under the > guidance of a qualfied teacher. > > I see mindfulness of the present moment in a similar way. We learn > some theory (Abhidhamma, sati, papanca, etc.), we practice noting > (meditation) and at some point, mindfulness of the present moment, > in real-time, starts to occur. > > I am not yet able to achieve mindfulness of the present moment in > real-time, but I believe that it can be done. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > 15875 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:06am Subject: Re: slow motion Hi Ken, Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I don't find the development of mindfulness to be so easy. Undoing, unthinking, unplanning, unconceptualizing... it doesn't come naturally. I have to work at it. Hindrances happen. I try not to supress them. I note them and consider their undesireable consequences. I do my morning meditation. My duty to myself is to sit. I try not to be attached to any results. My concept is that over time, I will develop a "mindfulness perspective" in my meditation and it will automatically spill over into my daily life. I am not anxious for it to happen, it will happen when the time is right; my getting anxious about it will only slow it down (more hindrances). Comments? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob M > > I know you are only using music lessons as an analogy but > I'd like to suggest that some people see Buddhism very > much in that way. They want an interest in life; golf > maybe, a musical instrument, or chess . . "What about > yoga? Or Buddhism?" "OK, I'll take up Buddhism!" > > Contrary to first impressions, the Buddha's teaching is > not about getting good at something difficult. It's right > understanding right here, right now. > > Kind regards > Ken H > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Howard, Nina and all, > > > > My sons are musically gifted (unlike their father). We have a > > different perspective when we listen to music. > > > > I hear music at a very superficial level. They AUTOMATICALLY hear > > key signatures, chord progressions, structure, etc. in real-time. > > > > They don't have to slow the music down or concentrate on the music > > to hear these things, it happens naturally. > > > > They were born with with a talent (from previous lives, I am sure), > > but that was not enough. To develop this talent, they had to study > > music theory and spend time practicing listening to music under the > > guidance of a qualfied teacher. > > > > I see mindfulness of the present moment in a similar way. We learn > > some theory (Abhidhamma, sati, papanca, etc.), we practice noting > > (meditation) and at some point, mindfulness of the present moment, > > in real-time, starts to occur. > > > > I am not yet able to achieve mindfulness of the present moment in > > real-time, but I believe that it can be done. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) > > 15876 From: charupan phengsrithong Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 7:58am Subject: A surprising thought Dear members, In a discussion, we read King Milinda's questions. One question was about the existence of Lord Buddha. There are evidences from archaeology, in history. I was very surprised when one in a group said she used to doubt about this too. This idea has never been in my head. I thought only foreigners would doubt about this but not the Thai with Buddhism background. What do you think? Charupan 15877 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 9:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Hi Sarah, Thank you for your encouragement. I originally came from Taiwan, and has been living in the U.S. for over half of my life now. I am new to Buddhism, and was introduced to it by chance through a friend. I've been reading books in Chinese, so I'm not yet familiar with some of the terms used in this forum. I apologize in advance if I use the wrong term or sound stupid as I have so much to learn from all of you. Again, thank you for your encouragement. WL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again > Dear WL, > > Welcome to DSG. You raise some interesting points in your first post (I > believe). > > >Perhaps > > these tales would not be suitable for introducing Buddhism to someone > > then. > .... > The Jatakas are the section of the Tipitaka most often taught to children > in one form or other. Like you, I think that they are not so simple and > can be understood on many levels as we're finding with just one example > here. As I sometimes find with a group of children, each will respond very > differently according to accumulations or tendencies. > > I'd be glad to hear more about how you became interested in Buddhism and > any further comments on any of the discussions here. Where do you live, I > wonder? > > Best regards, > > Sarah > ==== > > --- Uan Chih Liu wrote: > All tales, all > writings can never be taken as absolute truth, as the > > story > > so told has already been written and interpreted by the writer himself. 15878 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: slow motion Dear Rob M and Howard, Howard, it was so funny, in the swimming pool I was tying up my shoelaces and had a mental picture of you and your shoelaces. There were some rupa elements appearing such as hardness, and also seeing and hearing, just normally. I believe that the purpose is understanding and not: concentration and having many moments of sati. It is pa~n~naa itself that will be as I quoted once. Pa~n~naa is Pa~n~naa and it will perform its own function. The Buddha did not tell everybody to go slowly so that there is more understanding. He said: draw near, listen, consider, develop understanding. He explained about the realities that appear though each of the doorways, one at a time: What is the world: seeing, visible object, eye-contact, feeling arising on account of eye-contact, and so on for the other doorways.This has been repeated time and again. Can one regulate the sobhana cetasikas such as sati and pa~n~naa ? This is the question everyone should answer for himself. I do not think that you can compare acquiring skills such as tying up shoelaces slowly with the accumulation of understanding. Sati and understanding, as has been said, are not concentration. Also Rob's words , I am not sure about, is it considering with intellectual understanding? Rob M wrote: We have to scrutinize ourselves as to the motives why we do certain things in order to induce sati. Do we want sati? Do we want many moments of it? Then there is clinging which may be so subtle that we do not notice it. I find it helpful to aim for more understanding and not to think of, when will samma-sati arise? I have read in the Co. to the but that was not enough. To develop this talent, they had to study > music theory and spend time practicing listening to music under the > guidance of a qualfied teacher. > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: From my experience, as concentration and > mindfulness >> grow during meditation, events do slow down (for the meditating > observer), >> but that stage needs to be reached. 15879 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions on sense door process (quanities of cittas) Dear Rob M, see below, but there is not always an answer to such details. op 23-09-2002 18:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > For a "very slight object", there are many past bhavanga cittas then > two vibrating bhavanga (no arresting bhavanga). Why two vibrating > bhavanga cittas? N: There is a little "disturbance", just two moments, and then no process begins. R: For a "slight object", there are either two or three determining > cittas before falling back into bhavanga. Why multiple determining > cittas in this case? N: the javana cittas do not begin. If they would, there would be a sequence of seven, but the object which is rupa falls away after seventeen moments of citta. In this case it can last just three moments more, and these are three determining cittas. R: For a "great object" and a "very great object" (also for the mind > door process) there are seven javana cittas. I know that the first > is the weakest (it creates immediately effective kamma which will > give its effect in the present existence, or will otherwise become > defunct). I know that the last is the second weakest (it creates > subsequently effective kamma which will bear appropriate fruit in > the immediate next life, or will otherwise become defunct). There > are five cittas in the middle (they create indefinitely effective > kamma which will give its appropriate effects whenever circumstances > permit, starting from the existence after the present one until the > being gains total liberation from samsara). Why five? N: there have to be seven in all, seven minus two are five. I do not really have an answer, these are details which ordinary people cannot verify. R: For a "very great object" (also for a "clear object" in the mind > door process), there are two registration cittas. Why two? N: this is easy. In the preceding sense-door process there were two moments of registration or retention, because the process could run its complete course. Remember, rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, and we count these from the past bhavangacitta. When in the preceding sense-door process there were retention cittas, they also arise in the following mind-door process. Best wishes Nina. 15880 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Registration Citta Dear Rob M, op 23-09-2002 17:58 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Chart 3.3, shows > 11 types of citta able to peform the function of registration: > - Citta #19 (Rootless Unwholesome Resultant Investigating with > Equqanimity) > - Citta #26 (Rootless Wholesome Resultant Investigating with Joy) > - Citta #27 (Rootless Wholesome Resultant Investigating with > Equqanimity) > - Citta #39 - #46 (Beautiful Sense Sphere Resultant) N: this is correct, compare with Abhidhamnmattha Sangaha, of U. Narada. > 2. Since the registration citta takes the same object as the other > cittas in the process (except bhavanga), it makes sense that citta > #19 must be the registration citta when the vipaka giving rise to > the object is akusala (citta #19 is the only akusala option). I am > therefore going to assume that citta #27 is the natural registration > citta when the vipaka is kusala. This causes me to ask: > a) when would citta #26 arise as registration citta (assuming that > it is a viable option - see question 1. above)? > b) when would citta #39 - #46 arise as a registration citta? N: there are more details in Abh Sangaha, Ch 4, there are also other conditions at work: the feeling which accompanies the javana cittas. I can understand that, because the retention are two very fast moments after the javana cittas. Also the feeling accompanying bhavangacitta has to be taken into account. Somanassa of javana is followed by somanassa of retention, and in the same way upekkha is followed by upekkha. When the javana cittas are accompanied by domanassa, the retention cittas do not have domanassa, they are vipaka. Here it depends on the feeling accompanying rebirth-consciousness: somanassa or upekkha. In the first case, no retention follows, but an upekkha santirana is arising. In the second case, the retention has upekkha feeling, as are the following bhavangas. These are many details we cannot verify. Cittas are so fast, the two moments of retention arise and fall away so fast. I myself am not so interested in these details. We can just read about them. It shows that many, many conditions are operating for the arising of one citta. Best wishes, Nina. 15881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali study Dear Jim, a very good idea and thank you for all the trouble. Another possibility, different people make their attempts at translation on psg, and we frwd only what is interesting for dsg. such as your final translation and remarks. Not all grammatical details may be of interest to all. Nina. op 22-09-2002 18:36 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: Since Soma Thera's The Way of Mindfulness may be coming up > for study here and since the threefold mindfulness passage was left > out of his translation we can try to fill in the gap with our own > attempt at a translation and study of it (using ~Naa.namoli > translation as a guide). I think the passage occurs in five different > commentaries which can be compared for its accuracy. The first step > will be to prepare a text for study in an email format which I will do > but I think it would be best to post just a line or two of it at a > time. 15882 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 1:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again/ Rob M Hi Rob M, I think the sutta you refer to where you mention the Buddha as warning monks not to be too attached to the Dhamma is Alagaddupama sutta. Don't you think it would be wise not to toss overboard any plank of the boat, or abandon ship entirely, while still paddling far from the destination? This where I still am. Until one has reached the Other Shore, I think everything the Buddha gave us is essential and needs to be used until the journey is completed. I wonder if you wouldn't mind clarifying a couple of things for me Rob? ... As a teacher of Dhamma, which parts of it do you regard as the essential bits needed for navigating between "the great expanse of water, whose near shore was dangerous and fearful and whose further shore was safe and free from fear," and, more importantly, which are the bits you mention as those that were added "for luck", or out of superstition, and which can therefore be dispensed with? I hadn't looked on the Tipitaka from quite that perspective before. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I see the Dhamma as a boat to help me cross the sea of samsara. Once > I have crossed the sea, I have no more use for the boat and will not > carry it with me. (I think that this idea comes from a Sutta where > the Buddha warned monks not to be too attached to the Dhamma). > > Now in the time that this boat was built, it had a busty mermaid > carved in the bow and gruesome little beasts painted on the sides. > At the time that this boat was built, these additions were > added "for luck" and made it easier for people to accept that the > boat could be used by them as well. > > Today, we look down our noses at the superstition of our forefathers > in adding these items. We use modern, rational thought and complain > that they also weighed down the boat unnecessarily, perhaps making > it less seaworthy. > > However, if we keep in mind that the boat is merely a means of > transport, not meant to be an object of beauty and an object of > attachment in itself, and we also keep in mind that at some point in > the future, we are planning to abandon it when it is no longer > needed, we can put aside our prejudices and focus on navigating the > sea. > > Remember poor Manussa from my class notes? He put the key from the > Buddha on the wall. He worshiped it, recited its virtues and studied > it in detail. He did everything but use it to open the prison door. > > Christine, does this perspective help you sleep better? > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 15883 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again/ Rob K Dear Robert, I think I see some of my original reaction may have been a little hasty, but I still have some difficulties. I have interspersed some comments below .. -------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: Dear Christine, I arrived back in kumamoto last night and have just looked at the jataka. I think we see that it was not against the queens wishes that she went with the priest as it says "They became enamoured of each other and keeping it secret fled". ----------------------------------------------------------- ---> CF: This could be an unexpected 'result', not necessarily a pre- existing condition. There is no indication in the story that her opinion was even considered beforehand. ---------------------------------------------------------- RK: This disturbed the King as he had hoped that she would only stay one week with the priest. What I take from this Jataka, one I like very much, is how one should give without attachment. ------------------------------------------------------ --> CF: I have read the Jataka again. I am sceptical of the King's motives, I think one should discriminate between 'pure' giving and 'impure' giving. But I agree now that the King did not take any counsel from Senaka before making the decision to give the Queen to the household priest's son. Neither did he ask the advice of Ayura (Moggallana) or Pukkusa (Sariputta). Their involvment began only long after the initial event, after she did not return, after the King sought and failed to find her, and after the King became ill. The Bodhisatta thought, "The disease is not in the king, he is touched by mental sickness because he sees not his wife: I will cure him by a certain means". ------------------------------------------------------ RK: I like to think my girlfriend finds all she needs with me (That is conceit). But then I travel often and surely she must find other men (almost) as attractive as me. If she went with one I would feel resentment but reading over this sutta lessens that, because I see that this is pure selfish clinging. I have no regard for the joy she is having or the pleasure her (hypothetical )lover is having. ------------------------------------------------------- --> CF: Possibly. Unless it ever happens you can't really know how you would react. You can know how you 'hope' you will react, that is all. It is all just thinking. But still, you make me smile Rob - how could your girlfriend possibly find other men (almost) as attractive as you, not with your great humility :). If she did go with another man (incomprehensible though we may all find such a thing :)) that would be HER choice .... Your choice is how you understand and react to it. We may all have a very different view (and so might she) if the Uni electrician took a fancy to her, went off his food, and to cheer him up, (and to practice giving without attachment, of course), you loaned her for a week or two. Possibly she may choose not to return to you either. ---------------------------------------------------------- RK: These days many Buddhists are keen on doing metta meditation where they project metta to all beings in the universe. But if we are still discriminating in such common situations and not even able to wish for the benefit of the others here and now then we are not sincere about metta at all. The Dhamma leads us to let go of clinging to people and to rather treating all as equal- no favouritism in Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------------------- --> CF: It is not a 'common situation' for a man, whether a king or not, to give his wife to another man (not of her choice) on the proviso that she be returned in a week or so. Or, for a woman, whether a queen or not, to give her husband to another woman (not of his choice) on the proviso that he be returned in a week or so. One should only give what one is entitled to give, and another being is not a thing, or a possession. ------------------------------------------------------------- RK: On the other hand it is realistic and understands that we go step by step: The Kind needed the wise councel of Senaka to help him develop the parami of giving (which lessens clinging). You feel that there is no spritual progress occuring in this Jataka. Near the end Senaka (the bodhisatta) says : "If a man should give a gift nor regret the giving after, that a harder feat would be" And the king hearing these words reflected and thought how unworthy it was of him to have given and yet now to pine and sorrow. And so he was able to let go of the great clinging he had. This is spiritual progress. ---------------------------------------------------------------- --> CF: I'll set this aside for a while Rob. Presently, I do not have such an understanding of spiritual growth of the KIng. I find it just the usual human reaction of deciding that what has happened and can't be changed, is really for the best, and then re-framing the whole incident to fit this 'new' perception, praising himself and blaming the other. The verses by themselves I totally agree with. The story is a different matter .... "Dasanna's good sword thirsts for blood, its edge is sharpened perfectly: Yet 'midst the crowd he swallows it: a harder feat there cannot be: I ask if anything is hard compared to this: pray answer me. Greed may lure a man to swallow swords though sharpened perfectly: But to say, 'I give this freely,' that a harder feat would be; All things else are easy; royal Magadha, I've answered thee. Ayura has solved my question, wise in all philosophy: Pukkusa I ask the question now, if harder feat there be: Is there aught that's hard compared to this? pray answer me. Not by words men live, and not by language uttered fruitlessly: But to give and not regret it, that a greater feat would be: All things else are easy; royal Magadha, I've answered thee. Pukkusa has solved my question, wise in all philosophy: Senaka I ask the question now, if harder feat there be: Is there aught that's hard compared to this? pray answer me: If a man should give a gift, or small or great, in charity, Nor regret the giving after: that a harder feat would be: All things else are easy: royal Magadha, I've answered thee. Ayura answered question, good Pukkusa as well: The words of Senaka the wise all answers do excel." --------------------------------------------------------------- RK: I am far from the stage of being able to freely let go of what I hold dear. But it helps me to be very relaxed at parties and the like when my girlfriend is chatting with other men enjoying herself. In my callow youth I would have begrudged her and the men even that tiny pleasure. --------------------------------------------------------------- --> CF: Perhaps this is simply called trust and maturity. ---------------------------------------------------------------- RK: Maybe one day, given profound conditions, I can take joy if I hear that she loves other men; and have the spirit of giving firmly embedded. Robert ------------------------------------------------------------- --> CF: Maybe, maybe not. May you never have to find that out metta, Christine 15884 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 1:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again/WL Hi WL, Thank you for sharing a little about yourself and your perceptions. When I was speaking of the rational investigation of Buddhism, I was wondering how the inevitable conclusion that the investigation of realities leads to - anatta or soullessness - could sit comfortably with the Christian belief in a Creator God and an eternal soul. But, interesting as I would find that, it is best left undiscussed in this forum, as has been requested previously by the Moderators. ( just before you began posting I think). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15708 I hope you can find the interpretation of Udana1.8, Sangamaji - it is kind of you to try, thank you. But don't worry if it proves not to be possible. Nice to have you here, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Uan Chih Liu" wrote: > Hi Christine, > Re: "Udana I.8, Sangamaji, Translated by John D, Ireland", I have read > one interpretation of this long tme ago. I will do the best I can to find > it > for you. > > I'm kinda intrigued by your statement that "How interesting that you > combine the kindness, love and consolation of Christianity and the rational > investigation of Buddhism". For me both Christianity and Buddhism > have high elements of love and compassion for all beings. The practice > of medication leading to the state of emptiness, or realization of a lack > of inherent nature leads to the "equality of all beings" and therefore, > compassion for all beings. To me, Christinity and Buddhism are two > "boats" helping us to eventually cross the sea of samsara, or two "paths". > Different paths are suitable for different people. For myself I later found > Buddhism appealing to me because of my own philosophical nature. I > surely love to discuss with you on the subject some more. > > WL 15885 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again/ Rob M Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I wonder if you wouldn't mind clarifying a couple of things for me > Rob? ... As a teacher of Dhamma, which parts of it do you regard as > the essential bits needed for navigating between "the great expanse > of water, whose near shore was dangerous and fearful and whose > further shore was safe and free from fear," and, more importantly, > which are the bits you mention as those that were added "for luck", > or out of superstition, and which can therefore be dispensed with? I > hadn't looked on the Tipitaka from quite that perspective before. Thanks for indentifying the Sutta. I use "right view" as a test. If something links, even remotely, to right view, then it is an essential teaching. Right view includes the law of kamma and the four noble truths. The fourth noble truth is the complete eightfold noble path. My position is inspired by the famous "poison arrow sutta" (Culamalunkya Sutta, M63). At the conclusion of this Sutta, the Buddha says, "Why have I left [answers to speculative questions] undeclared? Because it is unbeneficial, it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have left it undeclared. And what have I declared? 'This is suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the origin of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the way to the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. Why have I declared that? Because it is beneficial, it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life, it leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared it. Therefore, Malunkyaputta, remember what I have left undeclared as undeclared, and remember what I have declared as declared." As an example, I have recently asked a couple of very technical questions regarding cittas in the thought process. Nina was kind enough to provide some answers and she concluded with, "I myself am not so interested in these details..." Nina is correct. Whether there are five, six or seven javana cittas as part of the thought process is a "detail", in no way linked to "right view". I asked these questions out of intellectual curiosity, not because I felt that they were "an essential bit". I am quite happy to drop these points now; they are not really that important. On the other hand, I recently posted a message on mindfulness practice (analogy of the music perspective). Ken H suggested that my analogy may be misleading and Nina questioned if I was [merely] considering with intellectual understanding. In my opinion, this is "an essential bit" and I am keen to pursue this topic further to improve my understanding. The Abhidhamma is often taught as a series of lists. You can see from the class notes that my approach is different; I see the Abhidhamma as a structured way of teaching the Dhamma. Thanks, Rob M :-) 15886 From: Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:28pm Subject: Way 2, Foreword "Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Foreword Directing attention to the four truly genuine stages of Arahantship in this universe, the Buddha says: "Here, O Bhikkhus, are the First Ascetic [Sotapanna], the Second Ascetic [Sakadagami], the Third Ascetic [Anagami], and the Fourth Ascetic [Arahat]; empty of Ascetics are the other ways of thought. Resound thus, O Bhikkhus, your swelling diapason of just rejoicing." [Cula-sihanada Sutta]. Later, the Buddha states why he affirms that nowhere, outside his System of Deliverance, are genuine Arahants to be found. It is because the Goal, Perfection [Nittha; here a synonym for the attainment of the Arahant] is "One, not Multiple," and the views of man are many. In a Buddha's system of Deliverance there are no "views"; instead, there is right understanding of things as they really are. "The Tathagata, O Bhikkhus, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, declares himself fully aware of all forms of clinging, and he makes known to perfection the science of the same. In a doctrine and discipline [Dhamma-vinaya] of this sort, O Bhikkhus, what joy there is in the Buddha is to be proclaimed perfect; what joy there is in the Dhamma is to be proclaimed perfect; what observance of Virtue there is proclaimed perfect; what pleasure and happiness there be amongst fellow-disciples is proclaimed perfect. And for what reason? Because, truly, O Bhikkhus, clearly explained, leading to the Deliverance, conducive to the Peace taught by a Supreme Sambuddha." In the subject now presented to the reader, "The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness [Satipatthana Sutta]" (I myself prefer to call it "The Discourse on Penetrating Mindfulness") the peerless Teacher gives an aspirant details of how to use the weapon of Mind if he wishes to make an end of the Bonds of Suffering. The reader will note a certain abruptness, almost jerkiness of expression, in the text. This is even more so in the commentary. This effect is brought about partly by the concise way in which a complex subject, of many details, is treated. But actually the text reflects the course of the aspirant's progress in watchful thinking, even as verses in a gallop rhythm can picture the speeding rider and the steady beat of a horse's hooves. He who begins this practice of Satipatthana finds that indeed he needs must rein in his thoughts sharply and often. No racing steed can equal thought which, now here, looking at the Temple Bo Tree, is in a moment at Buddhagaya's Shrine, and next instant visualizing the poplars in an English park. But, as a rider slides as it were into the way of its doing, on a bicycle, or a trotting horse -- so in this practice the Yogi gradually falls in with "its way" till, after a while, its working seems smooth and clear. The Translator is a Bhikkhu well qualified for the task. For him it was a happy labor of love, and a tribute to his Teachers in that secluded many-celled Arama in far Burma, where he, and another young Bhikkhu from Lanka, held out to the last in a long course of instruction in Satipatthana method. A Maha Thera, as well-known there as he was qualified in learning and temperament, supervised the course. The Discipline was strict, but just; and the Teacher firm, compassionate and a seer beyond the normal. The lodging and diet were simple to a degree. The Maha Thera's own teacher of old, master of meditation and expert in practical teaching for all that he was a layman, was deputed to instruct the yogins. Like all older Burmese, he had aforetime himself been a wearer of the yellow robe; his experience was vast and his learning profound. The course started with a crowd of aspirants many of whom were pious lay folk; but, as the weeks passed and endurance gave way, the class of pupils was sadly thinned out. Some, after a time, gave up the effort. Others, perhaps through a difference in preparation or temperament, completed the course early. Others again went on and on with the training until, at last, the two earnest ones from Lanka were left to face the calm Teacher whose evenness of mind was in no way disturbed by the recurring phenomenon of dwindling enthusiasm or numbers in those courses of hard life and abstruse thought. The training was beyond price. Keener at the close than even at the start of that course, our Translator today is yet happily and earnestly following that trail. These are indeed difficult times for layman and Bhikkhu alike. The seven year maximum has not yet passed; and indeed we are woefully weak for the Sutta's "seven days" minimum for results -- that is Arahantship, or failing that, the Anagami stage of Awakening. Yet the strenuous will press on -- "Remembering the Arahants of other days, And recollecting how it was they lived, E'en though today be but the after-time -- One yet may win the Ambrosial Path of Peace." Saritva pubbake yogi tesam, vattam anussaram Kiñcapi pacchimo kalo phuseyya Amatam Padam. Theragatha 947 Cassius A. Pereira Nugegoda, 8 August, 1941 Translator's Note In 1936-37, while living with my teacher in Burma, I had the opportunity of knowing the practice of the Buddhist method of meditation called The Development of Insight (vipassana bhavana). The enthusiasm with which many persons there took up the practice and continued in it and the kindliness and understanding which prevailed among those who had gone through the course of training patiently to the end made me and a fellow-bhikkhu from Lanka to take up the practice. Many began to train along with us. Some of them gave up the effort in a short time and some continued the practice to the end. The time taken to complete the course varied according to the individual. We were among the last to complete the training. The details and the spirit of the method are shown in the commentary-excerpts translated here. These were at first intended for the use of a few friends. Later when a group of sympathetic students of the Dhamma decided to get these printed, a translation of the Discourse had to be included to make the compilation coherent to the general reader. I wish to record here my warm appreciation of the kindness of the members of the Saccanubodha Samiti, "Nandana", Asgiriya, Kandy, especially Mr. Richard Abeyasekere, the Hon. Secretary, and Mr. W. J. Soysa, in getting this book published and encouraging me in my humble effort to serve the Dhamma. This compilation was begun with the Ven. Bhikkhu Nyanaponika and carried out largely according to his suggestions. To him and to the Ven. Bhikkhu Kheminda I am deeply thankful for the kindly help they gave me while I was engaged in this work. I also wish to record here my sincere thanks to the Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapala for his valued assistance in reading over the proofs carefully, and for the active interest he has taken in my work. Soma Thera Island Hermitage, Dodanduwa, August 15, 1941 15887 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again/ Rob K --- Dear Christine, I just add one small point: In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: >> > ------------------------------------------------------ > RK: I like to think my girlfriend finds all she needs with me (That > is > conceit). But then I travel often and surely she must find other men > (almost) as attractive as me. If she went with one I would feel > resentment but reading over this sutta lessens that, because I see > that this is pure selfish clinging. I have no regard for the joy she > is having or the pleasure her (hypothetical )lover is having. > ------------------------------------------------------- > --> CF: Possibly. Unless it ever happens you can't really know how > you would react. You can know how you 'hope' you will react, that is > all. It is all just thinking. > ___________ I think what you say is true but it can be seen in other ways too. In fact there is no girlfriend or me at all, ever. What there is at any time is the thinking that takes a concept of girlfriend. Whe she is with me or when she is not with me - like now - there is sometimes thinking of her . That thinking may be with metta or desire or it can sometimes be with worry (is she with another man). Reading that Jataka makes me see how foolish the type of thinking with worry is. It drops away. It happens here and now - not neccessarily in the future. Robert 15888 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A surprising thought Charupan Welcome to the list from me. I'm glad you finally worked out how to post! --- charupan phengsrithong wrote: > Dear members, > In a discussion, we read King Milinda's questions. > One question was about the existence of Lord Buddha. > There are evidences from archaeology, in history. I > was very surprised when one in a group said she used > to > doubt about this too. This idea has never been in my > head. I thought only foreigners would doubt about > this > but not the Thai with Buddhism background. What do > you think? > Charupan I suppose that if a person is of a doubting nature then the tendency to doubt will manifest in all different aspects of the person's life or thoughts, just like a person who gets annoyed easily will find everything annoying. Or do you think in this particular case that it wass something more complex than this? Jon 15889 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati and Mindfulness Practice Nina --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon and Rob Ep, > I greatly enjoyed reading your dialogues. I find them very much to the > point, and please continue. > With appreciation, > Nina. Thanks for this encouragement. It's good to know we aren't testing everybody's patience too much! By the way, many thanks for the series on anapanasati. Very valuable indeed. I've saved all the posts for another reading later (any chance of an article in due course?). Jon 15890 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re:Re: Hi Hi, Sumane and Ranil Thanks to you both for the welcoming replies. The problem is going to be finding a time that suits everyone, bearing in mind that for the most part you good folk in Colombo have work commitments during the week, while Khun Sujin has regular weekend commitments in Bangkok. I'll let you know (off-list) if there are any further developments on the prospect of a trip Sumane, thanks very much for the info about my colleague son. Although my colleague is aware of my interest and this list she has not mentioned her son's interest (anyway, he is studying in the UK or US at present, so is not often in Hong Kong). I will keep it in mind to bring up on a suitable occasion. Jon --- "Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya)" wrote: > Dear Sarah & Jon, > What pleasant reminiscence I experience when you mention your next visit > to Colombo! My heartiest appreciation of you all and of course for Khun > Sujin for deciding to return to my blessed country. Why I am so > emotional is that at least a few like Ranil, Gayan, self etc. who are in > the list & the ones who join for discussions as Nihal, Suren & his wife > will benefit once more with clarifications they have been piling up for > the discussion. As for me it was a “Course Correction”! You all know > that. > > Further, any land will be blessed with so much reality seekers stepping > in there. MY LAND needs it most! > > Thanks again > Sumane > > PS: Dear Jon, > Nihal’s sister in law’s son (s-i-l works with you, we learnt) is keen on > Dhamma study. Though a Buddhist, he has had little exposure in HK, Nihal > says. Just some info to extend the light of Dhamma to someone who could > benefit therefrom. > > Sumane Rathnasuriya 15891 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again/ Rob K --- Dear Christine, One more point. In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > RK: Maybe one day, given profound conditions, I can take joy if I > hear > that she loves other men; and have the spirit of giving firmly > embedded. > Robert > ------------------------------------------------------------- > --> CF: Maybe, maybe not. May you never have to find that out > _____ I think we can find out to a certain extent by examining what is occuring now. How much attachment to the concept of 'my girlfriend' is present now? And how much attachment is there to the concept of self? If the idea of self is diminshed then one is ready for anything - even death. Consequently other 'problems' are not of that much concern. We must realise that no matter how much clinging there is to loved ones that we must separate in a very short time, less than a hundred years. They find another love or we do; or they die or we do. It is nature. Robert 15892 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 4:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Chris --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Jon and RobEp, Larry, Howard, and All, ... > ... I was very interested to read a > remark you made Jon (not sure where) that your understanding was that > formal meditation was a fairly modern phenomena .... Hmm, an interesting proposition, Chris, but not one that I recall having come up with, nor one that I have any particular ideas on. What I think I have said (but I'm not sure where) is that the idea of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as being factors to be developed separately and independently was, as far as I could tell, a relatively recent phenomena, that is to say, I haven't seen it referred to in any of the ancient commentaries. Jon 15893 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The purpose of samatha / Rob Ep Rob Ep --- epsteinrob wrote: ... <> I think the perceived connection between concentration and insight is the intuitive view of most people when they first hear about such things. But this of course doesn't mean that must be the way things actually are!! After all, what 'makes sense' to us intuitively is really what appeals to our own peculiar mixture of accumulated tendencies, and while that includes a degree of understanding and right view we need to acknowledge that ignorance and wrong view form by far the larger part of it. Regarding the connection itself -- between 'deep peace and calm with concentration' and 'clear seeing' -- would you care to elaborate on what you see that connection as being, i.e., exactly how the former operates to 'allow' the latter. Jon 15894 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 4:12pm Subject: Re: A surprising thought --- Dear Khun Charupan, Thanks for joining the list, look forward to seeing you in Bangkok (I arrive on Sunday). I think doubts about the Buddha diminish depending on understanding of the teaching. Sometimes we might wonder if the Buddha could really know the minds of others or have the powers to be able to go through the air etc etc etc. But when we examine the teachings and see for ourself that he really could understand the difference between nama and rupa - the most wondrous miracle of all- then anything else seems pretty trivial. Hence we know the Buddha from his teachings; other evidence from archaeology is not so important(but still nice to know). Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., charupan phengsrithong wrote: > Dear members, > In a discussion, we read King Milinda's questions. > One question was about the existence of Lord Buddha. > There are evidences from archaeology, in history. I > was very surprised when one in a group said she used > to > doubt about this too. This idea has never been in my > head. I thought only foreigners would doubt about > this > but not the Thai with Buddhism background. What do > you think? > Charupan > > 15895 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - ... << I list below portions of the Satipatthana Sutta which seem to me to rather unambiguously describe thinking/contemplation as part of the practice. (I will set off what I wish to draw particular attention to by using double vertical bars, ||, before and after the material):>> I agree that the development of satipatthana as set out in the Satipatthana Sutta is development through the mind-door only, which I think is the point you make here by your reference to 'thinking/contemplation'. Satipatthana has no aspect of 'action' through the speech- or body-door. Mind-door 'action' is always purely mental activity, it can never be anything more tangible than that. This is what the two bhavanas -- samatha and vipassana -- share in common, mind-door 'action' only, accompanied by panna. When all is said and done, they are mere mental states. However (and I'm not sure if this is something you are alluding to in your post), nothing in the foregoing necessarily suggests a formal aspect to the occasion on which these mental states may arise, as I would see it. It might be said that 'contemplate' usually connotes arranging things so that one can remain undistracted by external sense-door impressions, but the real question must be whether the original Pali term carries such a connotation. As far as I am aware, it doesn't. I am pasting below the segments from the same sutta that I gave in an earlier post as the 'operative words' of this sutta. I think the passages you have highlighted in your post (below, snipped for ease of reference) fall into the same category, and indeed we have cited many of the same passages. But again, is there anything in either group of passages that compels an inference of certain formalities being required for these mental states to arise/be developed? Jon J's 'operative words': ... Mindful, he breathes in ... ... thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands ... 'thinking thus, he trains himself ... understands: 'I am going'; ... is a person practising clear comprehension ... reflects... thinking thus ... thinks of his own body thus ... experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands... ... understands the consciousness with lust ... knows with understanding ... thinks: 'Thus is material form...' ... understands the eye and material forms ... knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor ... understands: 'This is suffering,' Howard's passages: ********************************** 1) Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. ... Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. 2) ' ||in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, ...: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, ....'|| 3)... || "Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, ...: ||He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' || 4) In this way he remains focused internally on the body .... ||Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.|| 5) In this way he remains focused internally on feelings.... ||Or his mindfulness that 'There are feelings' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.|| 6) In this way he remains focused internally on the mind .... ||Or his mindfulness that 'There is a mind' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.|| ************************************ 15896 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, <> Yes, I agree that the section on the first Foundation/Arousing reads in terms of the conventional physical body rather than paramattha dhammas (i.e., the rupas that comprise what we take for body). However, the commentary indicates that the intended meaning is rupas/the rupa-khandha generally. This is found at the beginning of the section on the contemplation of mental objects, where the correlation between the 4 Arousings of Mindfulness and nama/rupa (passage 'A' below), or the 4 Arousings of Mindfulness and the 5 aggregates (passage 'B' below), is explained. Jon The Way of Mindfulness The Contemplation of Mental Objects [p.119] A. "Further, - the laying hold of *pure corporeality or materiality* was taught by the Blessed One in the instruction on body-contemplation, - in the instruction on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, the laying hold of the purely spiritual. - in order to teach the laying hold of a mixture of the material and the spiritual, he [now gives the section on the contemplation of mental objects]." B. "Or - in the contemplation on the body the laying hold of the *aggregate of corporeality or materiality* was spoken of by the Master; - in the contemplation on feeling, the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling; - in the contemplation on mind, the laying hold of the aggregate of consciousness; - in order to speak of even the laying hold of the aggregates of perception and formations, he [now gives the section on the contemplation of mental objects]." 15897 From: Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and Satipatthana Hi Christine and Jon, Formal meditation isn't a new development but I read somewhere that the "Burmese Satipatthana Method" is new, developed early last century, I think. I believe this is characterized by "noting" whatever arises. As you know, Mahasi Sayadaw spread it far and wide. I had a Tibetan teacher and he found this to be compatible with, but slightly different from, his own tradition. Also, I'm sure he modified his own traditional method for western students. Larry --------------------- Jon wrote: Chris --- christine_forsyth wrote: Hi Jon and RobEp, Larry, Howard, and All, ... ... I was very interested to read a remark you made Jon (not sure where) that your understanding was that formal meditation was a fairly modern phenomena .... Hmm, an interesting proposition, Chris, but not one that I recall having come up with, nor one that I have any particular ideas on. What I think I have said (but I'm not sure where) is that the idea of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path as being factors to be developed separately and independently was, as far as I could tell, a relatively recent phenomena, that is to say, I haven't seen it referred to in any of the ancient commentaries. Jon 15898 From: Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The purpose of samatha / Rob Ep Hi, Jon (and Rob) - In a message dated 9/24/02 7:12:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Rob Ep > > --- epsteinrob wrote: > ... > < I'm not knowledgeable enough to back this up. It makes sense to me that > deep peace and calm with concentration would have the potential to allow > for clear seeing. But I will wait to gather more information before > attempting to say more.>> > > I think the perceived connection between concentration and insight is the > intuitive view of most people when they first hear about such things. But > this of course doesn't mean that must be the way things actually are!! > After all, what 'makes sense' to us intuitively is really what appeals to > our own peculiar mixture of accumulated tendencies, and while that > includes a degree of understanding and right view we need to acknowledge > that ignorance and wrong view form by far the larger part of it. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I recall sending a sutta which supported Rob's contention about the role of concentration. I described it using arrows. Do you remember that Jon? --------------------------------------------------- > > Regarding the connection itself -- between 'deep peace and calm with > concentration' and 'clear seeing' -- would you care to elaborate on what > you see that connection as being, i.e., exactly how the former operates to > 'allow' the latter. > > Jon > > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15899 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The purpose of samatha / Rob Ep Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Rob) - > > In a message dated 9/24/02 7:12:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: ... > > I think the perceived connection between concentration and insight is > the > > intuitive view of most people when they first hear about such things. > But > > this of course doesn't mean that must be the way things actually are!! > > > After all, what 'makes sense' to us intuitively is really what appeals > to > > our own peculiar mixture of accumulated tendencies, and while that > > includes a degree of understanding and right view we need to > acknowledge > > that ignorance and wrong view form by far the larger part of it. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I recall sending a sutta which supported Rob's contention about > the > role of concentration. I described it using arrows. Do you remember that > Jon? > --------------------------------------------------- I remember the discussion well, Howard, and thanks for mentioning it again. If I remember correctly, we talked about the 'virtuous spiral' effect, and I think I made the comment that this could/should be seen as having effect on a moment-to-moment basis, rather than a 'situational' basis (i.e., now develop more concentration, now develop more right effort). I am not trying to downplay the significance of concentration of the right kind, as explained at length and repeatedly in the suttas. Rather I am questioning whether our 'intuitive view' of the connection between jhana- or near jhana-states and insight is likely the correct one (according to the teachings). Jon 15900 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Will the real concept please stand up -Rob Ep Hi Rob Ep, I wrote a more detailed post to you yesterday, but it seems to have got lost. It was picking up on a few threads and posts I had in front of me. I'll just keep it very brief now. You made some good comments, I thought, to Howard about concepts and how anything other than the direct experience of a reality (you called it percept) is a concept, no matter of what kind. Just at the end I think you forgot one or two points you'd previously agreed to;-) > This also leads me to something which I am less sure about. Because of > the above, I have trouble with the abhidhammic notion as I understand > or misunderstand it that concepts do not exist in the moment and are > not the objects of cittas. It seems to me that the image of chair or > the definition of chair or whatever reified version of the object is > being invoked in the moment is an actual experience in the mind-door, > although the object is just a mental object and does not occur as a > rupa. ..... What you say here, as Howard came back and pointed out, is correct. Concepts are the objects of cittas and experienced by them, even though they do not have 'real' characteristics of a nama or a rupa which can be discerned by panna. To clarify, namas, rupas or pannatti can be objects of citta in the mind door. Remember also, that sanna (perception) arises with every citta, including those which 'think about' or experience concepts. This is why I think your earlier definition of percept applying to realities 'perceived' as opposed to concepts, might be misleading. ..... >The object of that thought may not have an actual > characteristic, such as hardness or smoothness, but neither does any > nama. ..... But namas have other characteristics e.g of experiencing an object as in feeling, tasting, seeing, liking.... ..... > I would prefer to see the experience of these kinds of objects > as a momentary experience like any other, and maybe this can be > reclarified, why a thought of a concept or the experience of the > concept itself when it arises, is not a conditioned nama. .... I think Howard clarified well. In the lost post I quoted him. The experiencing of a concept is indeed a conditioned nama. As Nina wrote in a post, the word 'thought' can cause confusion too as some us use it to refer to the concept and others use it to refer to the thinking or experiencing. ..... On a very different subject you were following up with Rob M's system for saving files of the archives. If anyone else besides me prints out messages to read away from the computer screen, I find his system is very helpful for this. I go to the DSG website, click on the first message I haven't read, click on 'message index' to get it to the top and then on 'expand' and finally 'print'. All the following messages are then printed out. I usually skim through quickly after expanding to check there are no long 'untrimmed' posts (in which case I trim them in a workbook before printing). It's by far the easiest and quickest way to download and I'm grateful to Rob M for this too. As I say, there was a bit more in the other post, but I'm never in the best of moods (and neither my wrist) when I have to 're-do' it ;-( We'll also look f/w to your contributions to the 'Way' corner, Rob. Sarah ===== 15901 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 6:10am Subject: Re: Way 2, Foreword Hi Larry, I am keen to participate in the discussion of this very, very important Sutta. I have no comments or questions on the Foreward or Translator's Note. Thanks, Rob M :-) 15902 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 6:49am Subject: A can of worms (was: Accumulations)- Rob,Rob, Rob & Rob Dear RobM and any other Robs, I mentioned to Rob M that I’d intended to join in this thread some time back and would be doing so but have had a few second thoughts...... (This may be rather technical for one thing) ...... Rob M & Rob K were having an interesting discussion some time back about “ayuhana -vinnana”, accumulations and store-consciousness. Rob M also posted this link to an article I found quite interesting by Dr Walpola Rahula on “Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness” http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha195.htm which also refers to some Theravada sources and mentions Rob Ep’s favourite thread of “luminous by nature” as well, along with various understandings of other Schools of citta, vi~n~nana and mano (consciousness). I’d just like to raise some of the terms and give definitions or a summary, as I understand them, from a Pali Canon perspective. I believe the misunderstandings are very common. I welcome any corrections on the Pali terms or comments. 1. Citta, vi~n~nana and mano =========================== These all refer to consciousness in different contexts. In the Atthasalini transl (PTS p 185f) we read about citta being used to refer to the ‘variegated nature’ of consciousness, mano being used to stress the knowing of the ‘measure’ of an object and vinnana is used when referring to the khandhas. There is no ‘store-consciousness. Steve gave us this helpful quote before: “Bhikkhus as to that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana- the uninstructed worldling is unable to experiance revulsion(nibbinditum) towards it.For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him,appropriated and grasped thus:'This is mine,This I am ,This is my Atta' It would be better,Bhikkhus for the uninstructed worldling to take as atta this body composed of the 4 great elements rather than the citta. For what reason? Because this body composed of the 4 great elements is seen standing for one year,for two years,for three,four ,five or ten years,for 20,30 40 or 50 years,for 100 years, or even longer. But that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and night. Samyutta 12:61:Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi” ***** 2. Ayuhana ========= Rob K wrote: > Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, where > aayuhana (accumulate) occurs in complex phrases. (from bodhi The > great discourse on causationp65)about Paticcasamupadda: > Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally > forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness. > gambhiiro, sa"nkhaaraana.m > abhisa"nkhara.nAAYUUHANAsaraagaviraaga.t.tho > and > > [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, > and throwing beings into the different modes of origin > bhavassa aayuuhanaabhisa"nkhara.nayo > nigati.thitinivaasesu khipana.t.tho, > > _ > One point I do not think we can correctly talk about an ayuhana > vinnana or any storehouse consciousness. This seems an idea that is > not part of the Theravada ***** The quote Rob M gave from the dictionary gives a similar meaning: “I looked up the term ayuhana in "BUDDHIST DICTIONARY Manual of Buddhist Terms & Doctrines" by Ven. Nyanatiloka and found: ayuhana: (karmic) 'accumulation', is a name used in the commentarial literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities (karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhara; s. paticca- samuppada)....” ***** When we were in Bkk, it also was raised and clarified that ayuhana is the function of sankhara dhamma, manifesting as cetana cetasika and with avijja (ignorance) as proximate cause. ‘Accumulation’ or perhaps Howard’s wave analogy is more useful than ‘store’ I think. I understand that ayuhana doesn’t refer to other accumulated tendencies. (In the Rhys Davids/Stede pali dict., aayuuhana is translated as endeavouring, striving - hmmm). In the article by Dr Rahula, he refers to a passage in AN 11,p.131 using alayarama which I can’t find easily in AN and the term isn’t in this dictionary. He adds: “Besides this Anguttara passage, the term alaya in the same sense is found in several other places of the Pali Canon. The Pali Commentaries explain this term as 'attachment to the five sense-pleasures", and do not go deeper than that. But this also is an aspect of the alayavijnana.” I‘m getting confused, so I’ll leave ayuhana vinnana and alayarama vinnana.Any clarifications welcome. 3. Pabhassara (luminous) and Pandara (clear) ================================ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ We cannot refer to all cittas as pabhassara or ‘luminous by nature’ and in certain suttas, eg the one often quoted from AN, it only refers to bhavanga cittas. In others, it refers to kusala cittas only. We have to check the context very carefully. Pandara (clear) does refer to all cittas in some contexts and can be used as another synonym for citta, stressing that they are clear or pure compared to cetasikas. This is an area we’ve discussed quite a lot;-) This is one short quote from one of Jaran’s posts on the sutta in AN referred to in the article: “ From Commentary manorathapura.nii angguttaranikaya ekanipatava.n.nanaa (book of one), it says: (The pali also provided by Suan.) navame paphassaranti pandara parisutdhi = paphassara means white meaning pure. cittanti bhavangacitta.m = citta here refers to only bhavanga citta Here it says that paphassara.m refers to only bhavanga.” ***** Dr Rahula mentions “the ‘uprooting of alaya’ - which is used in the Pali Canon as a ‘synonym for Nirvana’ and suggests ‘ the original idea of alayavijnana (as a storehouse) was already there in the Pali Canon’. He also suggests that it is this alayavijnana or citta that is considered by men as their ‘’Soul’, ‘Self’..’ The latter may be partly so (but just partly), but the ideas of a storehouse or underlying citta or luminous citta which needs to be ‘unsullied’ of ‘adventitious defilements’ or as a synonym for nibbana are not supported in the Pali Canon as I’ve seen so far. I know now why I hesitated in opening this can of worms;-) Sarah ===== 15903 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 7:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali study Dear Nina, I'm in agreement with you. It's probably better that we do most of the menial work on psg and post the end results to dsg as they become available. Much of the discussion will certainly involve a lot of grammar and word study. The main study will be on the standard commentary of the word "satipa.t.thaana" which can be interpreted in a number of different ways depending on how one resolves the compound and interpret 'pa.t.thaana'. I'm currently comparing 17 versions of the same passage in 6 different atthakathas with 3 printed editions each (except one) which will take some time to wade through and jot down the differences. So far, I'm getting the impression that none of them are exactly the same. Most of the differences are minor ones but there are a few that we may have to consider carefully as to which is the better reading. I notice some confusion between pa.t.thaana and upa.t.thaana. Looking forward to the Pali discussions ahead. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, a very good idea and thank you for all the trouble. > Another possibility, different people make their attempts at translation on > psg, and we frwd only what is interesting for dsg. such as your final > translation and remarks. Not all grammatical details may be of interest to > all. > Nina. 15904 From: Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Hi, Jon - In the following you write: "However (and I'm not sure if this is something you are alluding to in your post), nothing in the foregoing necessarily suggests a formal aspect to the occasion on which these mental states may arise, as I would see it." The answer is that, no, this post of mine didn't pertain to the formal vs informal issue at all, but rather pointed to aspects of vipassana bhavana that involve "thinking about" (which includes concept processing). As far as the formal vs informal issue is concerned (a separate issue), I see the Buddha as teaching both, and I see ongoing mindfulness and clear comprehension during "ordinary times" as a very important part of the practice. (Incidentally, Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, who taught anapanasati as a complete meditative practice leading to both absorptions and wisdom, also made much of practicing during "ordinary times".) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/24/02 7:17:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > ... > << I list below portions of the Satipatthana Sutta which seem to me > to rather unambiguously describe thinking/contemplation as part of the > practice. (I will set off what I wish to draw particular attention to by > using double vertical bars, ||, before and after the material):>> > > I agree that the development of satipatthana as set out in the > Satipatthana Sutta is development through the mind-door only, which I > think is the point you make here by your reference to > 'thinking/contemplation'. Satipatthana has no aspect of 'action' through > the speech- or body-door. > > Mind-door 'action' is always purely mental activity, it can never be > anything more tangible than that. This is what the two bhavanas -- > samatha and vipassana -- share in common, mind-door 'action' only, > accompanied by panna. When all is said and done, they are mere mental > states. > > However (and I'm not sure if this is something you are alluding to in your > post), nothing in the foregoing necessarily suggests a formal aspect to > the occasion on which these mental states may arise, as I would see it. > > It might be said that 'contemplate' usually connotes arranging things so > that one can remain undistracted by external sense-door impressions, but > the real question must be whether the original Pali term carries such a > connotation. As far as I am aware, it doesn't. > > I am pasting below the segments from the same sutta that I gave in an > earlier post as the 'operative words' of this sutta. I think the passages > you have highlighted in your post (below, snipped for ease of reference) > fall into the same category, and indeed we have cited many of the same > passages. But again, is there anything in either group of passages that > compels an inference of certain formalities being required for these > mental states to arise/be developed? > > Jon > > J's 'operative words': > ... Mindful, he breathes in ... > ... thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands > ... 'thinking thus, he trains himself > ... understands: 'I am going'; > ... is a person practising clear comprehension > ... reflects... thinking thus > ... thinks of his own body thus > ... experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands... > ... understands the consciousness with lust > ... knows with understanding > ... thinks: 'Thus is material form...' > ... understands the eye and material forms > ... knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor > ... understands: 'This is suffering,' > > > Howard's passages: > ********************************** > 1) Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. > ... Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. > > 2) ' ||in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body > from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, ...: > 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, ....'|| > > 3)... || "Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a > charnel ground, ...: ||He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: > Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' || > > 4) In this way he remains focused internally on the body .... ||Or > his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of > knowledge & remembrance.|| > > 5) In this way he remains focused internally on feelings.... ||Or > his mindfulness that 'There are feelings' is maintained to the extent of > knowledge & remembrance.|| > > 6) In this way he remains focused internally on the mind .... ||Or > his mindfulness that 'There is a mind' is maintained to the extent of > knowledge & remembrance.|| > ************************************ /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15905 From: Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] The purpose of samatha / Rob Ep Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/25/02 12:13:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Rob) - > > > > In a message dated 9/24/02 7:12:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > jonoabb@y... writes: > ... > > > I think the perceived connection between concentration and insight is > > the > > > intuitive view of most people when they first hear about such things. > > But > > > this of course doesn't mean that must be the way things actually are!! > > > > > After all, what 'makes sense' to us intuitively is really what appeals > > to > > > our own peculiar mixture of accumulated tendencies, and while that > > > includes a degree of understanding and right view we need to > > acknowledge > > > that ignorance and wrong view form by far the larger part of it. > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I recall sending a sutta which supported Rob's contention about > > the > > role of concentration. I described it using arrows. Do you remember that > > Jon? > > --------------------------------------------------- > > I remember the discussion well, Howard, and thanks for mentioning it > again. If I remember correctly, we talked about the 'virtuous spiral' > effect, and I think I made the comment that this could/should be seen as > having effect on a moment-to-moment basis, rather than a 'situational' > basis (i.e., now develop more concentration, now develop more right > effort). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, exactly. I can't seem to locate my original post (and the our ensuing posts) on that. Could you direct me to them? ------------------------------------------------------ > > I am not trying to downplay the significance of concentration of the right > kind, as explained at length and repeatedly in the suttas. Rather I am > questioning whether our 'intuitive view' of the connection between jhana- > or near jhana-states and insight is likely the correct one (according to > the teachings). > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: If by our "intuitive view" you mean the view that merely (Hah! "Merely"!) mastering the jhanas leads to insight and liberation, that view is not mine, and *certainly* was not the Buddha's. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Jon > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15906 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 8:08am Subject: Re: A can of worms (was: Accumulations)- Rob,Rob, Rob & Rob Dear Sarah You wrote: "alayarama which I can't find easily in AN and the term isn't in this dictionary." Here is the entry "Aalaya" on page 109 PED from PTS. "Alaya (p. 109) (m. & nt.) [cp. Sk. alaya, a + li, liyate, cp. allina & alliyati, also niralaya] -- 1. orig. roosting place, perch, i. e. abode settling place, house J I.10 (geh°); Miln 213; DhA II.162 (an° = anoka), 170 (= oka). -- 2. "hanging on", attachment, desire, clinging, lust S I.136 = Vin I.4 (°rama "devoted to the things to which it clings" K. S.); Vin III.20, 111; S IV.372 (an°); V.421 sq. (id.); For aalayaraama in AN: A II. 34, 131 (°rama); III.35; It 88; Sn 177 (kam° = kamesu tanha-- ditthi--vasena duvidho alayo SnA 216), 535 (+ asavani), 635; Nett 121, 123 (°samugghata); Vism 293 (id.), 497; Miln 203 (Buddh °n akasi?); DhA I.121; IV.186 (= tanha); SnA 468 (= anoka of Sn 366). -- 3. pretence, pretext, feint [cp. BSk. alaya M Vastu III.314] J I.157 (gilan°), 438; III.533 (mat°); IV.37 (gabbhini); VI 20, 262 (gilan°)." If you use Cha.t.thasangayanaa CD ROM Version 3 from VRI, please use the search word "aalayaraamaa" (please use diacritics for aa from Help menu). You will find that it shows relevant references. Please note that definition 1 of aalaya above has the original meaning as a house. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear RobM and any other Robs, 15907 From: Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] The purpose of samatha / Rob Ep Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 9/25/02 10:36:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > I can't seem to locate my original post (and the our > ensuing posts) on that. Could you direct me to them? > ============================= Never mind about giving me references for the "spiral" posts. I have found messages 14360 and 14515. Thanks anyway. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15908 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 1, Message, some question marks Dear all, a few points in this Intro by Ven Bodhi I find questionable: see below. op 24-09-2002 00:52 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: The practice of Satipatthana meditation centers on the > methodical cultivation of one simple mental faculty readily available to > all of us at any moment. This is the faculty of mindfulness, the > capacity for attending to the content of our experience as it becomes > manifest in the immediate present. N: readily available to all? B.B: Most contemporary meditation teachers explain > Satipatthana meditation as a means for generating insight (vipassana). > While this is certainly a valid claim, we should also recognize that > satipatthana meditation also generates concentration (samadhi). N: We have to examine here how this is done and what kind and degree of concentration. This should be examined when reading the text. B.B.:Unlike > the forms of meditation which cultivate concentration and insight > sequentially, Satipatthana brings both these faculties into being > together, though naturally, in the actual process of development, > concentration will have to gain a certain degree of stability before > insight can exercise its penetrating function. N:should one first concentrate so that then insight can be developed? Where did the Buddha say that this must be done by everybody? As I said in my study of anapana sati, at the Conclusion: We should know: who is developing what degree of concentration, with what aim? Is he going to be a person with deliverance both ways, even an arahat with all the special distinctions? As Jon said, Thus, we have to consider all details about concentration and insight. Therefore, I would like to suggest reading the Visuddhimagga on Samatha next to the text of the Co to the satipatthana sutta. Then one will see how subtle, how intricate the development of jhana is. It is very necessary to know all the details, otherwise people may take for jhana what is not jhana but a special experience. There has to be pa~n~naa with the jhanacitta. Many points can be cleared up anyway, when we start reading the text of this Co. B.B.:In Satipatthana, the act > of attending to each occasion of experience as it occurs in the moment > fixes the mind firmly on the object. The continuous attention to the > object, even when the object itself is constantly changing, stabilizes > the mind in concentration, while the observation of the object in terms > of its qualities and characteristics brings into being the insight > knowledges. N: Concentration is not a prerequisite of the development of satipatthana in daily life. B.B.: To practice Satipatthana successfully a student will generally require a > sound theoretical knowledge of the practice along with actual training > preferably under the guidance of a qualified teacher. N: Are the scriptures not the best teacher? Different teachers have so many different opinions, and do they base their views on the scriptures themselves? That is the big question. Further on B.B. rightly stresses the importance of the scriptural tradition and he puts this very well. Nina. 15909 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 10:03am Subject: Perfections, Ch 5, Wisdom, no 12 Perfections, Ch 5, Wisdom, no 12 Dukkha does not come from a cause outside, but all dukkha comes from clinging to realities, from taking them for self or ³me², and at such moments there is lobha, attachment, to this wrong view. If paññå comes to know the truth of non-self, if it is able to eliminate the view that nåma and rúpa are self, and if it understands the characteristics of realities as they truly are, dukkha can decrease. There will be less dukkha even when paññå is still of the level of investigating and considering the realities that are appearing, and begins to understand them as not self, not mine. However, only when the stage of enlightenment of the streamwinner, sotåpanna, has been attained, the wrong view that takes realities for self and all other kinds of wrong view are completely eradicated. So long as one has not become a sotåpanna there must be dukkha, because one takes realities for self, and if wrong view is firmly engrained dukkha will increase. Before paññå can become accomplished to the degree of attaining the different stages of insight knowledge, we should begin to understand that our life evolves in accordance with kamma and that there is no escape from the conditions for the arising of citta, cetasika and rúpa. We should have a firm understanding of kamma and the factors which are the conditions for life to evolve each day, bound up as it is with joy and sorrow. We are sometimes delighted and thrilled, and sometimes depressed or afraid; at times our expectations come true, at times we are disappointed, there are pleasant and unpleasant events. There are birth, old age, sickness and death. We live in ignorance, but when paññå arises in daily life, it is able to consider the characteristics of realities and to understand them as not a being, a person or self, but only realities which arise because of their own conditions. The reality which experiences, the element which experiences, arises all the time in our life. We are so used to experiencing objects that we do not realize, when we see at this moment, that seeing is a reality which experiences, or when sound appears and we are hearing at this moment, that hearing is a reality which experiences. Satipatthåna is awareness of the dhammas which are real in our daily life, and through satipatthåna paññå can further develop to the degree of realizing the stages of insight. When the khandha of rúpa appears, sati can be mindful of it. When the khandha of consciousness appears, which experiences an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind-door, sati can be mindful. However, there should be awareness and understanding also of the khandhas of feeling, of remembrance (saññå) and formations (sankhårakkhandha). If there is no understanding of all five khandhas, defilements cannot be eradicated. If satipatthåna does not arise in our daily life, and paññå does not investigate the characteristic of each reality that appears, it is impossible to eliminate wrong view. When remembrance or perception arises, or when there are conditions for liking or for detesting something, for wholesome thinking or for evil thinking, paññå can realize that all these phenomena which are included in the nåma-khandhas are truly not self. They are only realities each with their own characteristic. 15910 From: Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 1, Message, some question marks Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/25/02 1:06:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear all, > a few points in this Intro by Ven Bodhi I find questionable: > see below. > > op 24-09-2002 00:52 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > The practice of Satipatthana meditation centers on the > > methodical cultivation of one simple mental faculty readily available to > > all of us at any moment. This is the faculty of mindfulness, the > > capacity for attending to the content of our experience as it becomes > > manifest in the immediate present. > N: readily available to all? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Some will be more successful than others. Anyone with hands, ears, eyes, and a modicum of understanding can learn to play the violin, but not all will be virtuosos. Incidentally, Nyanaponika Thera expressed ideas quite similar to those expressed by Bhikkhu Bodhi. --------------------------------------------------- > > B.B: Most contemporary meditation teachers explain > > Satipatthana meditation as a means for generating insight (vipassana). > > While this is certainly a valid claim, we should also recognize that > > satipatthana meditation also generates concentration (samadhi). > N: We have to examine here how this is done and what kind and degree of > concentration. This should be examined when reading the text. > B.B.:Unlike > > the forms of meditation which cultivate concentration and insight > > sequentially, Satipatthana brings both these faculties into being > > together, though naturally, in the actual process of development, > > concentration will have to gain a certain degree of stability before > > insight can exercise its penetrating function. > N:should one first concentrate so that then insight can be developed? > Where > did the Buddha say that this must be done by everybody? > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Bhikkhu Bodhi isn't saying it either. (That *does* happen to be one approach sanctioned by the Buddha, but not in this sutta.) ------------------------------------------------------------ > As I said in my study of anapana sati, at the Conclusion: > such as attaining and emerging at any time, at any place, samatha, the > development of calm, cannot be a foundation for vipassana.> > We should know: who is developing what degree of concentration, with what > aim? Is he going to be a person with deliverance both ways, even an arahat > with all the special distinctions? > As Jon said, > insight known as 'insight both ways', based on jhana, in this case jhana > with breath as object. As such, is directed at those who have already > attained jhana with breath as object or who are potentially capable of > doing so. For such individuals, breath is already a naturally arising > object in their daily life, a daily life that is far different from yours > and mine. > > Thus, we have to consider all details about concentration and insight. > Therefore, I would like to suggest reading the Visuddhimagga on Samatha > next > to the text of the Co to the satipatthana sutta. Then one will see how > subtle, how intricate the development of jhana is. It is very necessary to > know all the details, otherwise people may take for jhana what is not jhana > but a special experience. There has to be pa~n~naa with the jhanacitta. > Many points can be cleared up anyway, when we start reading the text of > this > Co. > B.B.:In Satipatthana, the act > > of attending to each occasion of experience as it occurs in the moment > > fixes the mind firmly on the object. The continuous attention to the > > object, even when the object itself is constantly changing, stabilizes > > the mind in concentration, while the observation of the object in terms > > of its qualities and characteristics brings into being the insight > > knowledges. > N: Concentration is not a prerequisite of the development of satipatthana > in > daily life. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that is a slight overstatement. Some degree, even if minimal, of concentration is required. The attention must not wander - it must be focussed. -------------------------------------------------------- > B.B.: To practice Satipatthana successfully a student will generally > require a > > sound theoretical knowledge of the practice along with actual training > > preferably under the guidance of a qualified teacher. > N: Are the scriptures not the best teacher? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: They are the main teacher. But no one but a musical genius can learn to play the violin solely from a book - to speak analogically. ------------------------------------------------------ Different teachers have so many > > different opinions, and do they base their views on the scriptures > themselves? That is the big question. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep. One must be very careful in choosing teacher! --------------------------------------------------- Further on B.B. rightly stresses the> > importance of the scriptural tradition and he puts this very well. > Nina. > > > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15911 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 11:22am Subject: Howard's spiral Hi Howard, yes, I remember. It was about sila, samadhi and panna. Usually people think: first sila, etc. but you see it as a spiral, overlapping, they develop on and on. Sila develops on and on with samadhi and panna and so does samadhi. I found that post very good. Best wishes, Nina. 15912 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 0:38pm Subject: Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Dear Jim, Rob M, Larry and All, Jim has mentioned (and others have alluded to) the fact that in Soma Thera's translation: "Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html a part was not translated and left out. I understand this work is respected, but wonder if the missing passages are important to understand the complete and correct meaning? As I think what we all want is growth in understanding about the truth of the Buddha's teachings on how we should practice, and the clearing away of ignorance, could those who are more skilled in that area please take the time to join in or watch over the discussions, adding their deft touches from time to time? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: Since Soma Thera's The Way of Mindfulness may be coming up for study here and since the threefold mindfulness passage was left out of his translation we can try to fill in the gap with our own attempt at a translation and study of it (using ~Naa.namoli translation as a guide). I think the passage occurs in five different commentaries which can be compared for its accuracy. 15913 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 1, Message, some question marks Hi Howard,and all intending "The Way" discussion participants, I am so looking forward to this discussion of Soma Thera's 'The Way" as it has the potential of being really interesting - the first such discussion I will be keeping in a separate folder. Howard, could you please give me the reference to where Nyanaponika Thera agrees with Bhikkhu Bodhi on "The practice of Satipatthana meditation centers on the methodical cultivation of one simple mental faculty readily available to all of us at any moment." I'm not disputing this in any way - I just need the ref. so I can investigate for myself. Just as I will look into in a similar way whatever will be stated in the upcoming exchanges on this Sutta. I wonder if it would not be too onerous on everyone else as well, to quote references for their statements - I realise that we will all have different interpretations of those references, and this is where the usual courteous, reasoned discussion on this List is so helpful. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - 15914 From: Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:30pm Subject: Way 3, Intro "Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness (Satipatthana Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya No. 10 and Digha Nikaya No. 22) and the excerpts from its commentary given here deal with the method of training for insight (vipassana) according to the Buddha's teaching. Insight is the understanding of the true nature of things by which a complete transfiguring of mental life takes place in the seer and by which he is lifted out of the groove of birth and death. The understanding of the nature of things is the sure knowledge of the transience and subjection to sorrow of all component things and of the emptiness of all things as regards ens, self or essence. This last knowledge of the essential emptiness of all things is called the realization of the supreme void. By it the conception of a self and the craving and suffering which spring from that conception are abandoned. It marks the limit of the spiritually attainable in the Buddha's Dispensation. By it is accomplished emancipation from all bondage to ignorance and the attainment of the highest happiness. In the "Way of Analytical Knowledge" (Patisambhida Magga) it is said: "What is the supreme void? The quieting of all kammical conformations, the giving up of all clinging to rebirth, detachment, cessation, Nibbana -- this is the supreme void." The Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness (Satipatthana Magga) is for reaching that summum bonum of the Buddhas. Mindfulness is said to have "non-superficiality" as its salient characteristic, the "absence of confusion" as its function, and the "state of being turned towards the object" as its manifestation. It is also called the "non-negligence" (appamada) which indicates the state of unremitting alertness of the yogavacara, the proficient in spiritual endeavor. Clear and strong mindfulness is conjoined with wisdom and is called the "prudence of mindfulness" (sati nepakkam). It is then pure cognition, the cognition which is free from discrimination that proceeds from delusion. It is such cognition that is indicated in the teaching of the Buddha to Bahiya Daruciriya, which says that to one there must be in what is seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the contacted just the contacted, in the apperceived just the apperceived, so that one may be free from lust, hatred and delusion and from bondage to this or any other world. This "objective" way of looking at a thing, freed from considerations of the personal reactions to that thing, is the pith of the method and constitutes what is called "knowing as it is" (yathabhuta ñanadassana). Also by its quality of reckoning just what is present, mindfulness cuts down discursive thought and prepares the mind to take in the actual characteristics of the cognized objects. In this sense, mindfulness lets the objects speak for themselves and unfold their nature. Thus, it predisposes and opens the mind to the impressions of truth, induces mental pliancy and the mood of spiritual receptivity, the basis of highest intuition. The Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness sets forth the whole duty of the meditator, and provides for every phase of the process of training for insight. It is strenuous whole-time work, and only resolute hearts in whom the consciousness of life's suffering runs deep, could hope to pursue it to the end, the attainment of Arahantship. The Buddha's Goal of Emancipation is attained with the extirpation of all craving and spiritual ignorance. Who wins it, gains lasting mental strength and contentment. It is the source of real peace and equanimity. Lack of freedom consists of subjection to hate, lust and ignorance. Virtuous conduct wipes out hate; the calm of skillful concentration casts out lust; and wise understanding of the world within oneself dispels ignorance. The Way of Mindfulness does all this; it is designed for the attainment of fullest inner freedom. This is the only satisfying way for the seeker of truth when the diffuseness [papañca] of the external world with its thin layer of culture, comfort and allurement, ceases to be interesting and is found to lack true value. The seeker knows to a certainty that what he wants is to be found in the realm of the spirit. There alone he feels he would reach the vision of oneness [ekatta] of the enduring [dhuva] by transcending the diversity [nanatta] of change [aniccata]. And what he wants is inward integrity, intactness, inviolability, based on the unshakable deliverance of the mind from the sway of all conditioned phenomena. To this the Way of Mindfulness leads by showing him how to penetrate into the singleness of nature [ekasabhava] of the Supreme Void [Agga Suñña], Nibbana, which is permeated with the one taste [ekarasa] of liberation [vimutti]. The Way of Mindfulness reaches the first stage of supramundane fulfillment with what is technically known as "entry into the stream" or the arrival at the unswerving path to the Goal. Before that there could be serious deviations, but not from that point where the First Direct Glimpse of the Goal is obtained. The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness deals with the preparatory part, the Mundane Way of Mindfulness which is of immediate practical value to worldlings still in the valleys of the spirit far from the supramundane peaks. Mindfulness is a process, an event and an arising and a passing away momentarily like any other mental property. Although it is a basic power, a shelter and a refuge of the mind, the role it plays in the drama of transition from Ignorance to Knowledge differs considerably according to the other properties of mind with which it works. For instance in association with Right Understanding and its group which comprises "wisdom, intense knowledge, discrimination, research, investigation of things, consideration, close examination, pondering over, learning, skillfulness, keen-wittedness, analysis, reflection, vision, sagacity, the discernment that leads aright, penetrative insight and clear comprehension," it is rational. And when it is combined with Right Concentration and its cognates such as "mental steadfastness, serenity, immovability, quietude, non-distraction, and pacification," it is intuitive. But the intuitive or rational role does not preclude mindfulness from communicating its regulative impulse of moderation to the mind, at all times. It is the property which makes for proper proportion in the response of the mind to mental objects. 15915 From: Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 4:43pm Subject: Nyanaponika/Christine Hi Christine, Here is an essay by Nyanaponika Thera if you want some supplementary reading on satipatthana: http://www.tipitaka.net/ebooks/book0010/ Larry 15916 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 6:59pm Subject: Satipatthana Sutta (Pali Version) now on-line Hi All, After getting permission from the moderators, I have uploaded a Pali version of the Satipatthana Sutta into the files section of the discussion group. It is in .PDF format, so you don't need to install special fonts to read it. I expect that it will come in useful as we review this sutta in detail as a group. Thanks, Rob M :-) 15917 From: Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's spiral Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/25/02 2:25:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, yes, I remember. It was about sila, samadhi and panna. Usually > people think: first sila, etc. but you see it as a spiral, overlapping, > they > develop on and on. Sila develops on and on with samadhi and panna and so > does samadhi. I found that post very good. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Nina. That pleases me! ----------------------------------------------- > Best wishes, > Nina. > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15918 From: Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 1, Message, some question marks Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/25/02 4:13:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hi Howard,and all intending "The Way" discussion participants, > > I am so looking forward to this discussion of Soma Thera's 'The Way" > as it has the potential of being really interesting - the first such > discussion I will be keeping in a separate folder. Howard, could you > please give me the reference to where Nyanaponika Thera agrees with > Bhikkhu Bodhi on > "The practice of Satipatthana meditation centers on the methodical > cultivation of one simple mental faculty readily available to all of > us at any moment." I'm not disputing this in any way - I just need > the ref. so I can investigate for myself. Just as I will look into > in a similar way whatever will be stated in the upcoming exchanges > on this Sutta. > I wonder if it would not be too onerous on everyone else as well, to > quote references for their statements - I realise that we will all > have different interpretations of those references, and this is where > the usual courteous, reasoned discussion on this List is so helpful. > > metta, > Christine > =============================== The reference I had in mind was his essay "The power of Mindfulness". It is included in his book The Vision of Dhamma which I own but is possibly out of print. (BTW, he references "The Way" in the notes to that essay.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15919 From: Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 1, Message, some question marks Hi again, Christine - A follow-up on my last reply: The essay, The Power of Mindfulness, is also to be foung on ATI. the url is http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel121.html I didn't read through it, but I presume it is exactly the same as the essay included in the book The Vision of Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15920 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 1:38am Subject: Re: slow motion --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > > I do my morning meditation. My duty to myself is to sit. I try not > to be attached to any results. > > My concept is that over time, I will develop a "mindfulness > perspective" in my meditation and it will automatically spill over > into my daily life. I am not anxious for it to happen, it will > happen when the time is right; my getting anxious about it will only > slow it down (more hindrances). > > Comments? > Hi Rob(M) I do have some comments which I hope won't look like fault finding: As you were saying, some people have natural musical ability, without any training they can hit the right note occasionally. But to be accomplished musicians, they still need many hours of practice. Practice entails habituating the body to move in the desired way at the desired time. Do long hours of practice mean that natural musical ability is being accumulated? I don't think so. Mental and physical attributes are conditioned by kusala and akusala kamma which, themselves, are conditioned. There is no self who has control over these things. We can't say, with any certainty, that we are going to sit [at the piano] and generate some kusala kamma. You hope your morning meditation will develop a mindfulness perspective which, I assume, will give you an added preparedness for satipatthana. But this still begs the question; where is the kusala kamma that conditions this kusala mindfulness perspective? Kind regards Ken H 15921 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jataka Tales again Dear WL. --- Uan Chih Liu wrote: > Hi Sarah, > Thank you for your encouragement. I originally came from Taiwan, > and has been living in the U.S. for over half of my life now. I am > new to Buddhism, and was introduced to it by chance through a > friend. I've been reading books in Chinese, so I'm not yet familiar > with some of the terms used in this forum. I apologize in advance > if I use the wrong term or sound stupid as I have so much to learn > from all of you. Again, thank you for your encouragement. ..... Thank you for telling us more and for your modest comments. We can all learn from your helpful attitude too! Please don’t be concerned about sounding ‘stupid’.... As Nina said, if we all waited til our posts were perfect we wouldn’t have any discussion at all. Sometimes I send something in haste and then have a little panic wondering if it was OK, but this is usually just a little mana (conceit), caring about what others will think and so on. Where do you live in the States, btw? I know it’s difficult for many new to the list to follow many of the Pali terms used. Please ask for clarification or ignore anything too technical. You may also find it helpful to print out the simple Pali glossary in the Files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ You mentioned to Christine that you had heard some further comments about the Sangamaji sutta from the Udana. I just read the commentary to this sutta and will just add a few more details as others may be interested too: 1. Sangamaji ‘had been the son of a certain wealthy merchant of great means’. 2. He was paired by his parents ‘with a comely wife’. 3. He went to listen to the Buddha and became a sotapanna. 4. After gaining permission from his parents he became a monk. 5. He attained the jhanas and very soon became an arahat. 6. His parents, relatives and friends heard he was staying nearby in Jeta’s Grove. They went to welcome him and begged him not to waste the inheritance by ‘going forth’. Of course he was unmoved, thinking: “These do not know this state in which I have no need of sense-desires; they desire attachment solely to sense-desires like excrement-bearers to a ball of excrement. These are incapable of having it drawn to their attention with Dhamma-talk.” 7. When they saw he was unmoved, they ‘despatched the wife, together with her retinue, along with her son.’ The wife had been pregnant when he had bcome a monk. The wife agreed to the order/request. 8. Again Ven. Sangamaji was of course unmoved and kept silent to her entreaties and the leaving of the son in his lap (‘which is not good form where those gone forth are concerned’ i.e bad kamma). 9. He had no mental torment and neither rejoices or grieves, being freed from ‘the bond of lust (and) the bonds of hatred, delusion, conceit and (wrong) view.’ ***** My comments =========== For the wife, parents, other relatives and family members, how very unfortunate that though they lived near Jeta’s Grove and during the Buddha’s life, they were unable to hear about the dangers of attachment from either the Buddha or from Sangamaji who was an arahat with special powers. When I read these details, it reminds me how fortunate we are that now we are able to consider and hear a little when we are not blinded by desire, hatred and ignorance. Even arahats cannot help those who are not ready to listen. We’ve been reading details of the Perfections. Sangamaji’s example reminds me that the last perfection given is that of equanimity. Equanimity ‘purifies loving-kindness’. It has the ‘characteristic of promoting the aspect of neutrality; its function is to see things impartially; its manifestation is the subsiding of attraction and repulsion: reflection upon the fact that all beings inherit the results of their own kamma is its proximate cause.’ ( from Cariyapitaka commentary). What would have seemed to the family to be a cold, heartless response was in fact a state of the highest purity. Appearances seen through the clouds of ignorance can be very deceptive. ***** WL, one thing has led to another in this post. I’ll look forward to any further comments from you on this or any other theme. Sarah ====== 15922 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:24am Subject: Re: slow motion Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > > > > > > I do my morning meditation. My duty to myself is to sit. I try not > > to be attached to any results. > > > > My concept is that over time, I will develop a "mindfulness > > perspective" in my meditation and it will automatically spill over > > into my daily life. I am not anxious for it to happen, it will > > happen when the time is right; my getting anxious about it will > only > > slow it down (more hindrances). > > > > Comments? > > > > Hi Rob(M) > > I do have some comments which I hope won't look like fault finding: > > As you were saying, some people have natural musical > ability, without any training they can hit the right note > occasionally. But to be accomplished musicians, they > still need many hours of practice. Practice entails > habituating the body to move in the desired way at the > desired time. > > Do long hours of practice mean that natural musical > ability is being accumulated? I don't think so. Mental > and physical attributes are conditioned by kusala and > akusala kamma which, themselves, are conditioned. There > is no self who has control over these things. We can't > say, with any certainty, that we are going to sit [at the > piano] and generate some kusala kamma. > > You hope your morning meditation will develop a mindfulness > perspective which, I assume, will give you an added preparedness for > satipatthana. But this still begs the question; where is > the kusala kamma that conditions this kusala mindfulness > perspective? > > Kind regards > Ken H I never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me; don't worry about fault finding. I genuinely want to learn more about the topic (part of the reason that I am keen to particiapte in the Satipatthana discussion). Let me first clarify my point; I view mindfulness as a perspective, not a skill. My sons' perspective on music is inborn, but a little bit of training helps give them the "vocabulary" to articulate and discriminate what they hear. Even if they stopped practicing now and did not practice for fifty years, they would still have the musical perspective (though their skills would be virtually gone). There is a glass with water in it. The optimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half full"; the classification happened because of his perspective. The pessimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half empty"; again his conditioning plays a role. A "mindful person" does not see "half empty", does not see "half full", does not see "glass" and does not see "water"; a "mindful person" only sees "visible object". In all three cases (optimist, pessimist, mindful person), the same stimulus occurs. In each of the three cases, the thought process moves in a different direction; lobha (half full), dosa (half empty) or kusala (visible object). What causes the mind to move in one of the three directions? Carita, conditioned by kammic accumulations, which I am lumping under "perspective". Though we have a natural in-born perspective as a result of many cycles of samsara, we can "learn" a new perspective. I want to learn a new perspective, a perspective of mindfulness. So how do I learn? There is a Chinese saying, "Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand." I have to *do* something to learn (as a contrast, a skill is something that you have to keep doing). I beleive that to learn a mindfulness perspective, I have to practice meditation until it becomes natural. I am hoping that once I have achived that level, that I will be able to "turn mindfulness on" and "turn mindfulness off" as required (if I am only ever aware of the present moment, I will certainly miss my flight tomorrow). You asked, "where is the kusala kamma that conditions this kusala mindfulness perspective?" I am not sure that I understand the question. Past kusala kamma will condition kusala vipaka which impacts the sense-door consciousness, receiving and investigating cittas, but the determining citta (the one where yoniso manasikara / ayoniso manasikara, guided by the decision cetasika, adhimokkha, comes into play) is kiriya. In other words, we can be mindful of both akusala and kusala. I am of the understanding that mindfulness is an activity of the determining citta, a kiriya citta. I fear that I am drifting further off topic here as I don't understand the question. Ken, do my ramblings make sense? Please help me to understand better. Trying to express myself in writing forces me to organize my thoughts and it is very useful. Please challenge me in areas where my understanding is underdeveloped and don't ever worry about "fault finding". Thanks, Rob M :-) 15923 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] A surprising thought Dear Charupan, Welcome from me as well to DSG - hope you're finding it interesting and look forward to any of your contributions. You mentioned before that a group at the Foundation were studying and discussing King Milinda's Qus. I'd be very interested to hear any comments from these sessions or the points that are raised. I believe the English translation is on line, so it should be able for someone to quote a relevant part if you give a reference. I remember in the English sessions at Wat Bovorn 20 years ago, that you always raised unusual questions and look forward to any more;-) I think Jon and RobK answered this one. Charupan, I hope you don't mind the informality here, such as the "Khun" for Thai names.If you feel like it, I'm sure other members would be very glad if you would say a little about yourself, your interest in dhamma and anything else you care to share. You have been quite an inspiration to me in many ways in recent years. Sarah ===== --- charupan phengsrithong wrote: > Dear members, > In a discussion, we read King Milinda's questions. > One question was about the existence of Lord Buddha. > There are evidences from archaeology, in history. I > was very surprised when one in a group said she used > to > doubt about this too. This idea has never been in my > head. I thought only foreigners would doubt about > this > but not the Thai with Buddhism background. What do > you think? > Charupan 15924 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:45am Subject: KE and metta (was: Meditation and Satipatthana) Hi KE, Thank you for your reminders about the value of metta and for sharing your way of teaching. Your post raises many common assumptions about metta development and quite a few questions for me: Now we’re sitting at computers communicating with one another. Is there metta? How can we be sure that the pleasant feeling is accompanying metta and not lobha? Is there an idea that metta lasts or can be stretched out? Is there an idea of ‘self’ that can switch wholesome states on and off at will? If they can be switched on so easily, how come we’re not all enlightened? Why is there so much attachment, aversion and ignorance? Does a mother only have metta for her baby? What about another baby - is the feeling the same? Why not? Aren’t there many factors which will affect the benefit to someone else (including their accumulations)? Is jhana so simple as you suggest? Before there is concern about ‘all directions’, isn’t it better to really understand the characteristic of metta now and to be honest about whether it is arising? Finally, why are we so concerned to have metta or to be the loving person? ***** I don’t wish to be rude in anyway (and I apologise sincerely if these questions sound rude), but metta practice was just the first of several steps you mentioned. There has also been quite a lot of discussion on this theme on DSG with discussion of texts. You may wish to look at some of the posts in ‘Useful Posts’ in the Files section. I certainly agree on the value of teaching “people to wish other people (beings) well and happy regardless of their relationship and physical and mental attributes” whenever there is an opportunity and I appreciate the work you are doing to help others understand and benefit from the Teachings. Out of interest, do you teach people at a centre or temple in Singapore or just from the website? metta, Sarah ====== --- mentalculture wrote: > Hi, Sarah, > > Let's Share Some Metta Experience. > > What is metta (Loving-Kindness)? > > For a start, we teach people to wish other people (beings) well and > happy regardless of their relationship and physical and mental > attributes in all directions. This is the practice (instructions). > > In Buddhism, metta has been equated to a mother's love to protect at > the cost of her life for her only new-born child. That is the closest > definition you can get. > > What is this practise going to achieve (final result)? > To create a mental state call Metta (Loving-Kindness). > Once you are apt at creating such a mental state, you can just do it > by a single thought (just like a switch). > > By directing the (metta) mind, the beings receiving metta will calm > down and feel at ease, well and happy. Try until you achieve this. > > When you practise Jhana (absorptions) with metta, it is known as > Jhanic Metta. A very powerful weapon in conquering person with > extreme hatred. ================== 15925 From: Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:03am Subject: Metta Bhavana Re: [dsg] KE and metta (was: Meditation and Satipatthana) Hi, Sarah and all - I submit the following from ATI: ********************************** Sutta Nipata I.8 Karaniya Metta Sutta The Discourse on Loving-kindness Translated from the Pali by Piyadassi Thera. For free distribution only. Read alternate translations: Thanissaro Bhikkhu | Acharya Buddharakkhita Note: This sutta also appears at Khp 9. From The Book of Protection, translated by Piyadassi Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1999). Copyright ©1999 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. Translator's Introduction While the Buddha was staying at Savatthi, a band of monks, having received subjects of meditation from the master, proceeded to a forest to spend the rainy season (vassana). The tree deities inhabiting this forest were worried by their arrival, as they had to descend from tree abodes and dwell on the ground. They hoped, however, the monks would leave soon; but finding that the monks would stay the vassana period of three months, harassed them in diverse ways, during the night with the intention of scaring them away. Living under such conditions being impossible, the monks went to the Master and informed him of their difficulties. Thereon the Buddha instructed them in the Metta sutta and advised their return equipped with this sutta for their protection. The monks went back to the forest, and practicing the instruction conveyed, permeated the whole atmosphere with their radiant thoughts of metta or loving-kindness. The deities so affected by this power of love, henceforth allowed them to meditate in peace. The discourse gets divided into two parts. The first detailing the standard of moral conduct required by one who wishes to attain Purity and Peace, and the second the method of practice of metta. > 1. "He who is skilled in (working out his own) well being, and who wishes to > attain that state of Calm (Nibbana) should act thus: he should be > dexterous, upright, exceedingly upright, obedient, gentle, and humble. 2. > "Contented, easily supportable, with but few responsibilities, of simple > livelihood, controlled in the senses, prudent, courteous, and not hanker > after association with families. 3. "Let him not perform the slightest > wrong for which wise men may rebuke him. (Let him think:) 'May all beings > be happy and safe. May they have happy minds.' 4.& 5. "Whatever living > beings there may be -- feeble or strong (or the seekers and the attained) > long, stout, or of medium size, short, small, large, those seen or those > unseen, those dwelling far or near, those who are born as well as those yet > to be born -- may all beings have happy minds. 6. "Let him not deceive > another nor despise anyone anywhere. In anger or ill will let him not wish > another ill. 7. "Just as a mother would protect her only child with her > life even so let one cultivate a boundless love towards all beings. 8. "Let > him radiate boundless love towards the entire world -- above, below, and > across -- unhindered, without ill will, without enmity. 9. "Standing, > walking, sitting or reclining, as long as he is awake, let him develop this > mindfulness. This, they say, is 'Noble Living' here. 10. "Not falling into > wrong views -- being virtuous, endowed with insight, lust in the senses > discarded -- verily never again will he return to conceive in a womb." > Revised: Mon 21 January 2002 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp1-08a.html /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15926 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipa.t.thaana, word derivation. Dear Jim, I am glad you mention how many versions you are using. I am impressed by your thoroughness, as always. You do not walk over one night's ice, as we say in Dutch. Meanwhile I looked into the P.T.S. dictionnary: upa.t.thitaa sati: presence of mind. pa.t.thaana: intent contemplation and mindfulness, application of mindfulness. setting forth, setting up. Also mentioned here: the four Applications of Mindfulness. pa.t.thahati: to put down, to provide. I also looked at kamma.t.thaana: occupation, meditation subject. I looked up the note in DII, p. 324. It has been said that one should be mindful in order to understand these terms. As to the Way the Buddha and disciples went, the third meaning: this is in the beginning of the sutta itself: the one way leading to the end of dukkha. We deduct this meaning from the texts. I think it is difficult to find the three meanings by word derivation alone. How can Ven. S translate it as the four frames of reference? Best wishes from Nina. op 25-09-2002 16:16 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: The main study will be on the standard > commentary of the word "satipa.t.thaana" which can be interpreted in a > number of different ways depending on how one resolves the compound > and interpret 'pa.t.thaana'. I'm currently comparing 17 versions of > the same passage in 6 different atthakathas with 3 printed editions > each (except one) which will take some time to wade through and jot > down the differences. So far, I'm getting the impression that none of > them are exactly the same. Most of the differences are minor ones but > there are a few that we may have to consider carefully as to which is > the better reading. I notice some confusion between pa.t.thaana and > upa.t.thaana. Looking forward to the Pali discussions ahead. 15927 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Dear Christine and all, I'm interested in following the book discussion on Soma Thera's The Way of Mindfulness. I will let you know if I find any more missing parts in Soma's translation of Buddhaghosa's commentary (a.t.thakathaa) while comparing it to the Pali. I will also make the occasional remarks about the translation. Personally, I think the whole commentary should have been translated in keeping with the original. It was in the following part on p. 46 where chunks are missing: << borne in mind [dharetabbam], and memorized [vacetabbam], and that this way should be cultivated [imañca maggam bhavetabbam]." [Jim: starting at this point a translation of 19 lines at Ps I 237 beginning with kambalavaa.nijaadayo (blanket dealers, etc.) is missing. It's a continuation of the preceding passage. I also wonder if 'borne in mind' and 'memorized' amount to the same thing. I thought: (should be) 'recited' might be better for 'vaacetabba.m'.] [Jim: the following doesn't match the Pali. There is first a gloss for 'yadida.m' (namely, that is to say, lit. which are these) followed by one for 'cattaaro' (four).] Cattaro Satipatthana = "The Four Arousings of Mindfulness." Four in relation to classes of objects of mindfulness. [Jim: two consecutive parts are missing here: 24 lines on the three meanings of satipatthana followed by 19 lines on why satipatthana is in the plural number while the way (maggo) is in the singular.] Why did the Buddha teach just Four Arousings of Mindfulness and neither more nor less? By way of what was suitable for those capable of being trained. >> -- Soma's translation Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, Rob M, Larry and All, > > Jim has mentioned (and others have alluded to) the fact that in Soma > Thera's translation: > > "Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > a part was not translated and left out. I understand this work is > respected, but wonder if the missing passages are important to > understand the complete and correct meaning? > > As I think what we all want is growth in understanding about the > truth of the Buddha's teachings on how we should practice, and the > clearing away of ignorance, could those who are more skilled in that > area please take the time to join in or watch over the discussions, > adding their deft touches from time to time? > > metta, > Christine 15928 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Jim, I have uploaded a Pali version of the Satipatthana Sutta into the files section of the DSG. Could you please check it out and make sure that it is "okay". Thanks, Rob M :-) 15929 From: Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:44pm Subject: Way 4, Intro cont "Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction continued Mindfulness as memory is indicated by such terms as annussati = calling to mind; patissati = remembrance; dharanata = bearing in mind; saranata = recollection. In this connection the process of mindfulness is compared to the Treasurer of a King who reminds the King of the royal possessions in detail, daily, at night and in the morning. The mindfulness of the aspirant to the Highest Goal of Liberation from Suffering reminds him of Virtue, Concentration and Wisdom, which constitute the possessions of the Good Life in the Dispensation of the Buddha. The value of the recollective activity of mindfulness is seen in the increasing awareness of the essentials of holy living in the aspirant's mind, and the growing strength of purpose for realizing these within himself. Above that stands mindfulness as the activity that takes care of the mind and protects it. It is compared to a wagon driver who ties the oxen to the wagon's yoke, greases the axle, and drives the wagon, making the oxen go gently. In this activity mindfulness looks to the smooth working and movement of the mind and takes notice of the processes both skillful and not, taking place in the consciousness. In the more complex forms it is the selective and integrative action of the mind. The selective activity has been compared to the work of the Chief Adviser of a King. As the Adviser is instrumental in distinguishing the good from the bad, and in getting the good and avoiding the bad, so mindfulness distinguishes the worthy from unworthy things, avoids the unworthy and obtains the worthy. The integrative character of mindfulness is like the Minister-of-all-work of a King. He is wanted in putting through every project of the King. He is commissioned to organise and combine the workers and execute the tasks. Mindfulness is also like that Minister. It is the organizing activity of the mind necessary for the development of wholesome states of consciousness. It combines the various other qualities which compose those states, puts them to their appropriate tasks and keeps them in proper working order. By the strength of integrating mindfulness a conscious state of skill functions harmoniously and becomes a well-knit unity. This activity of mindfulness makes the work of the aspirant complete at every stage of his progress. Integrating mindfulness sees all lacks and deficiencies, brings in the needed qualities and suitably applies them. It is called the highest wisdom of mindfulness [parama satinepakka], and constitutes the core of the Mindfulness that is included in the Real Way [Ariya Magga Pariyapanna Sati], of the Way Factor of Mindfulness [Sati Magganga] and of the Enlightenment Factor of Mindfulness [Sati Sambojjhanga]. It is Right Mindfulness [Sammasati] in the full sense of the term. From the foregoing it can be seen that it is mindfulness that holds things together in the mental flux, brings them up, and prevents them from floating away, getting submerged, forgotten and lost. Without mindfulness there will be no reconstitution of already acquired knowledge and consciousness itself would break in pieces, become fragmentary, and be unable to do properly the work of cognition. Further, without mindfulness that has become wisdom, the highest kind of mindfulness which includes clear comprehension, cognition will be superficial; there will not be the knowledge of things gained from different relations and different angles -- the work of discernment and discrimination peculiar to selective activity -- nor any really constructive understanding -- the yield of integration -- and so penetrative vision into the full significance of spiritual things will not be reached. When one is strongly mindful, one plants one's consciousness deep in an object like a firm post well sunk in the ground, and withstands the tempestuous clamour of the extraneous by "a sublime ignoring of non-essentials". But this does not mean that in such a one interest is narrow and his outlook wrongly restricted. Strong mindfulness ignores the unnecessary, by adhering to the center of the business in hand, and extends its view to important peripheral conditions, with a widespreading watchfulness resembling that of the sentinel on a tower scanning the horizon "for the glint of armour". By such a balance between width and depth mindfulness steers clear of the extremes of lopsided vision and practice. In the sense of overcoming mental conflict, and in the sense of getting rid of all unclarity, all incapacity to judge aright and indefiniteness due to mental unquiet, mindfulness is a controlling faculty [indriya]. The controlling faculty of mindfulness makes for the absence of confusion [asamussanata] and produces lucidity of thought, sound judgment, and definiteness of outlook. Mindfulness accompanied by keen understanding appears as the controlling faculty of mindfulness. Mindfulness accompanied by sustained energy is mindfulness considered as a spiritual power [bala] and is the quality of earnestness [appamada] which destroys the wavering of negligence [pamada]. Negligence is the wandering of the mind in objects of fivefold sense-pleasure, repeatedly: it is the absence of thoroughness, of perseverance, and of steadfastness in doing good; the behavior that is stuck in the mire of worldliness; the casting aside of the desire to do what is right; the casting aside of the duties which belong to one; the absence of practice, development, and increase of wholesome qualities; the lack of right resolve, and the want of application. Earnestness is the opposite of all that negligence connotes. According to meaning, earnestness is the non-neglect of mindfulness [atthato hi so satiya avippavaso]. Indeed, earnestness is the name for mindfulness that is always active, constantly at work. Earnestness may also be explained, as it has been by some, as the four mental aggregates of feeling, perception, consciousness and formations, proceeding with application of mindfulness and clear comprehension [satisampajaññayogena pavatta cattaro arupino khandha appamado]. 15930 From: Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Dear group, I'm going to post this the same way as ADL, four days on and three days off. So the next installment will be monday evening, my time. Larry 15931 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 6:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Rob M., I downloaded the pdf file and the following is very similar to what I'm seeing on my Acrobat Reader (ver. 4). "Ek¤yano aya· bhikkhave maggo satt¤na· visuddhiy¤ soka-pariddav¤na· samatikkam¤ya dukkha-domanass¤na· atthagam¤ ¾¤yassa adhigam¤ya nibb¤nassa sacchikiriy¤ya, yadida· catt¤ro satipaÂÂh¤n¤." So looking like this I can hardly begin to check it. Note that 'atthagam¤' above should be 'atthagam¤ya'. I must be lacking a font. Wouldn't it be better to have it in a plain text file (*.txt) which can be read on any machine using the Velthuis scheme as follows: "Ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo sattaana.m visuddhiyaa soka-pariddavaana.m samatikkamaaya dukkha-domanassaana.m atthagamaaya ~naayassa adhigamaaya nibbaanassa sacchikiriyaaya, yadida.m cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa." I could easily create such a text file for uploading, if desired. Another advantage of this format is that any passage can be cut and pasted directly into email messages without the need for special fonts or font conversion. The Velthuis scheme for writing Pali and Sanskrit is the one used by the Pali Text Society on their website and is sometimes seen in email messages like this one. Best wishes, Jim > Hi Jim, > > I have uploaded a Pali version of the Satipatthana Sutta into the > files section of the DSG. > > Could you please check it out and make sure that it is "okay". > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 15932 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 6:29pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Panna and characteristics Dear Group, A conversation I had with Christine: --- Dear Christine, I think this is a useful topic. Comments interspersed: > Dear R > > Thank you for your explanation. My knowledge is limited - I know > there are two kinds of reality - mental phenomena (nama) and physical > phenomena (rupa). I understand (only intellectually) that the self > is not a reality, and it is my seeing many dhammas/elements as > a 'whole' that keeps me with a wrong view of self. And I know that > mental phenomena experiences something, a~d physical phenomena does > not experience anything. But that's about the extent of my > understanding.... ______________ And this is something you would not have known before learning Dhamma. This theoretical knowledge serves as the basis for direct testing. ____________ > I wondered if I needed clarification as to exactly what the > term 'characteristic' means when applied to a reality. > The dictionary meaning (Webster) of characteristic is: "Pertaining > to, or serving to constitue, the character, showing the character, or > distinctive qualities or traits, of a person or thing, perculiar, > distinctive." ___________ It is a good definition but remember (from mulapariyya sutta commentary) "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas: This is said for the purpose of showing that these are mere dhammas endowed with the specific natures deviod of such attributions as that of 'being' etc... These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities. And although there is no distinction between these dhammas and their characteristics the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known, according to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas."endquote _________ > I know 'seeing' is a reality. Is the characteristic of the > reality 'seeing' simply that 'it sees' (which 'hearing' or 'tasting' > can't do), or is it that 'it sees visible object', or is it different > to that? _____________ Seeing is a type of dhamma (in this case a citta, cakkhuvinnana) that experiences visible object, different colours. That is what it does. Thus it is not anyone who sees , not your seeing or my seeing but simply a conditioned reality that experiences visble object. It cannot think about visible object, it does not have any wish to experience visible object. It is not something different from the seeing: "there is no distinction between these dhammas and their characteristics" . I think it cannot be explained much more than this: it can be known directly because it is arising now. ______________ Is the characteristic of the reality of 'hearing' that > it 'hears' (which 'seeing' and 'tasting' can't do) or is it that 'it > hears sound', or is it different to that? _____________ Again "there is no distinction between these dhammas and their characteristics". Thus hearing is simply the experience of sound by that type of reality (sotavinnana). This reality cannot experience colour or tasting or hardness. ___________ > I have been told that namas and rupas appear one at a time through > the six doors...that each is said to have its own characteristic by > which it can be distinguished from other realities... No List of > them? ... or is it that the characteristic of each reality being > unique, needs to be 'experienced' and can't be put into language, > because that is moving into 'thinking'? Or am I being too precious > about the term 'characteristic' and should I set it aside? ________ Indeed the abhidhamma and commentaries give details about the different characteristics . The Atthasalani and Abhidhammathasangaha are good in this regard. Knowing the different characteristics and functions in theory helps to bring attention to them when they appear in daily life - as they do continually. _____________ > --->You say:"It can't be stressed enough that this procedure is not > limited > to thinking about these matters but that it is by the direct > insight into these dhammas as they arise in the present moment > that is true insight" > > I accept that thinking and discussing can only go so far, and can > grow to be an end in itself, a dead end. But what is "direct insight > into these dhammas as they arise in the present moment" - the > instantaneous awareness of and knowing of what is being experienced, > before thinking intervenes with labels or concepts? _______________________ The labelling and conceptualsing is bound to happen . However there can be direct insight before any labelling. there can also be insight while labelling (knowing that this is only thinking). ------------------------------- (In the past, I > have practised the Mahasi method with labelling.) Or is it before > that - e.g. two day old babies in the Nursery at work, 'know' and > are 'aware' of their mother's voices and smell as being different to > that of a midwife. Does this mean two day old babies are already > forming concepts of 'that which feeds and comforts' even though not > able to think, reason or use language? _______ Exactly so. It is one of the functions(kicca) of the minddoor process to formup these concepts. very natural - and also not self who is doing so. ___________ > With regard to your question about whether there is discernment that > what appears at the eyedoor walking along the street is only visible > object different colours ... Only by 'trying', by an effort of will > can I swap 'perception hats' and consciously see what is in view that > way ... but only for the moments of the effort, and never as a > general occurrence happening by itself. It feels artificial. I'm not > sure if these attempts are useful or not ... ___________ I think this is very natural too, that it is difficult. It is right understanding that can discern whether there is right effort or wrong. If there is wrong view then there will be wrong practice but it will not be known as such. Look at it this way; you don't have to try to have seeing - and yet it still arises. So it is not a matter, I believe, of trying to change anything ; it is instead a matter of seeing what is present now. It can always be tested because sati comes with detachment and equanimity - of a rather effortless nature. That is why understanding anatta and the uncontrollabilty of realities is crucial - otherwise there will always be a subtle belief of someone who can do something, always 'someone' to 'protect', always a search (lobha -desire) for something other than what is right now. Our refuge since time began has been the conceptual world with it promises of future pleasure or memories of past happiness. But this is an unsteady refuge. The present moment is the real world and if that is known then there can be the knowing that what the Buddha said is true - that dhammas are conditioned and evanescent- and seeing that loosens attachemnt to the ephemeral world: who would cling to a lump of foam, a mirage or a majic show?. Of course it must take a long time to properly see this and so we live mostly in the conceptual world in the beginning with little glimpses below the surface . ----------------- > > --->You say:"If this is properly done then gradually, > over a very long time, wisdom will develop and result in > enlightenment." > I don't mind how long things take. Most of the time, though, I feel > I haven't got off the 'starting blocks':) __________ Better to be at the starting blocks in the right race than out in front heading in the wrong direction. Robert --- End forwarded message --- 15933 From: Antony Woods Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 10:36pm Subject: Metta Sutta with nice commentary Dear Howard, Here is a Metta Sutta I recite regularly. I like the commentary below. http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/snapshot06.htm "In our daily lives we meet all kinds of people. Some are pleasant and some are ill-disposed. There are also moments of anxiety, moments of stress, and circumstances which are perplexing. On encountering unpleasant people, and in difficult times, a recital or perusal of the Sutta will produce beneficial results. The practice of what is contained in it will induce a tranquil state of mind, give us self-confidence, and help us to overcome difficulties." I interpret "all kinds of people" to include myself in all my skillful and unskillful moods. with metta / Antony. 15934 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 10:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Jim, I think that the problem is that I created it using Acrobat Reader ver 5 (available for free download). Might this help? I am new to Pali, so I find the Velthuis scheme to be confusing. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hi Rob M., > > I downloaded the pdf file and the following is very similar to what > I'm seeing on my Acrobat Reader (ver. 4). > > "Ek¤yano aya· bhikkhave maggo satt¤na· visuddhiy¤ soka-pariddav¤na· > samatikkam¤ya dukkha-domanass¤na· atthagam¤ ¾¤yassa adhigam¤ya > nibb¤nassa sacchikiriy¤ya, yadida· catt¤ro satipaÂÂh¤n¤." > > So looking like this I can hardly begin to check it. Note that > 'atthagam¤' above should be 'atthagam¤ya'. I must be lacking a font. > Wouldn't it be better to have it in a plain text file (*.txt) which > can be read on any machine using the Velthuis scheme as follows: > > "Ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo sattaana.m visuddhiyaa > soka-pariddavaana.m samatikkamaaya dukkha-domanassaana.m > atthagamaaya ~naayassa adhigamaaya nibbaanassa sacchikiriyaaya, > yadida.m cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa." > > I could easily create such a text file for uploading, if desired. > Another advantage of this format is that any passage can be cut and > pasted directly into email messages without the need for special fonts > or font conversion. The Velthuis scheme for writing Pali and Sanskrit > is the one used by the Pali Text Society on their website and is > sometimes seen in email messages like this one. > > Best wishes, > > Jim > > > Hi Jim, > > > > I have uploaded a Pali version of the Satipatthana Sutta into the > > files section of the DSG. > > > > Could you please check it out and make sure that it is "okay". > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 15935 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A can of worms (was: Accumulations)- Rob,Rob, Rob & Rob Dear Suan & Rob M, Suan, thank you very much for your help in looking up the terms. I’ve now found ‘aalaya’ in PED - in the article it just appears with a short ‘a’ which misled me. I think I'm clear now, but any further comments or corrections are welcome. (I don’t have the CD ROM - I believe it’s not so simple with a macintosh computer.) --- abhidhammika wrote: > > Here is the entry "Aalaya" on page 109 PED from PTS. > > "Alaya (p. 109) (m. & nt.) [cp. Sk. alaya, a + li, liyate, cp. allina > & alliyati, also niralaya] -- > > 1. orig. roosting place, perch, i. e. abode settling place, house J > I.10 (geh°); Miln 213; DhA II.162 (an° = anoka), 170 (= oka). -- > > 2. "hanging on", attachment, desire, clinging, lust S I.136 = Vin I.4 > (°rama "devoted to the things to which it clings" K. S.); Vin III.20, > 111; S IV.372 (an°); V.421 sq. (id.); > > For aalayaraama in AN: > > A II. 34, 131 (°rama); III.35; It 88; Sn 177 (kam° = kamesu tanha-- > ditthi--vasena duvidho alayo SnA 216), 535 (+ asavani), 635; Nett > 121, 123 (°samugghata); Vism 293 (id.), 497; Miln 203 (Buddh °n > akasi?); DhA I.121; IV.186 (= tanha); SnA 468 (= anoka of Sn 366). -- ..... I note (and have checked a few of the refs) that the second set of meanings of ‘desire’ or ‘lust’ are most common for aalaya and aalayaraama and as used in AN. I also note that in PED, it doesn’t mention aalayavi~n~naa.na at all. I’ve now located the passage referred to in AN to support the suggestion in the article by Dr Rahula that alaya is an ‘aspect of the alayavinnana’ referring to citta which is ‘luminous by nature’ and so on and that which is taken as self. B.bodhi’s translation (AN 4s, 78 ‘Four Wonderful Things’, p.109 in Anthology) reads: “People generally find pleasure in attachments, take delight in attachments and enjoy attachments. but when the dhamma of non-attachment is taught by the Tathagata, people wish to listen to it, give ear and try to understand it. this is the first wonderful and marvvellous thing that appears on the manifestation of a Tathagata, an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One. (Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo patubhavati.) ***** These meanings of aalaya conform with the common meaning given above, i.e ‘attachment,desire, craving, lust’. There is no suggestion of citta or vinnana or luminous or soul or self. As I mentioned before, I see no suggestion of ‘alaya’ in the Pali Canon referring to any store consciousness either in any aspect. I have found where the term alayasamugghata is referred to in the Netti. In the article it says that “’no-alaya’, is another synonym for Nirvana’. I don’t think it’s very commonly used in the Pali Canon (pls correct me). In the Netti, it’s translated as ‘the outguiding of lust’ and is followed by ‘the outguiding of hate’ and ‘the outguiding of delusion’. So as we know, no attachment means no rebirth, but I’m not sure it can be used as a synonym for nibbana. In summary, when Dr Rahula suggests the ‘original idea of alayavijnana was already there in the pali Canon of the Theravada’, with all due respect, with regard to meanings like citta, store consciousness, luminosity and so on, I think this is a real ‘stretch’. Disagreements welcome! ***** My other area of confusion, Rob, lies in the other thread on ayuhana. As far as I know now, this has nothing to do with aalaya and has a completely different meaning in every respect. Your original question referred to ayuhana vinnana, described as “sub-conscious” but with a warning. You mentioned store/no store in this connection and under the same thread introduced the alaya vinnana article. We’ve now clarifed exactly what ayuhana (accumulation of cetana or sankhara) is and what alaya (attachment, lust) is.They are completely separate terms and I understand that any suggestions of store-consciousness or sub-conscious are misleading for either. In the first place you mentioned that Dr k.Sri Dhammananda suggested that sloth and torpor are prompted by ayuhana vinnana.In the Atthasalini we read that they have ayoniso manasikara (unwise attention) “in not arousing oneself from discontent and laziness (or indulgence), as proximate cause. Thina and middha (sloth and torpor) can arise at anytime, not just when we’re tired, but whenever there isn’t wise attention and there is no kusala (wholesome) state. Certainly there must be akusala cetana (intention) at these times and so I can understand the reference to ayuhana in this connection, especially as it relates to the examples you gave before of unwholesome kamma. I’ve learnt quite a lot from this research. Thank you very much Suan for putting me on the right track and helping with the confusion. Rob, I particularly liked your post to Christine in which you realised the difference between those details which are just an intellectual curiosity and those points which will really help develop an understanding of the Teachings. I think it’s very helpful and important to know the difference (which doesn’t mean there can’t be any curiosity;-)). This has been some very non-urgent fun and curiosity for me and also a way of understanding what others are referring to better;-) Thanks for the ‘prompting’. Sarah ===== 15936 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 11:54pm Subject: Survey of Paramattha Dhammas Dear group. I uploaded a pdf file of Sujin Boriharnwanakets "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" . This book has been popular in Thailand for many years in the original Thai and Nina Van Gorkoms translation is now ready for publication. I will be arranging the printing while in Thailand and I put this edition here so that Nina can read it - her apple computer can:t properly read my windows version. Mike Nease did the formatting of the book. I will keep it on for a few weeks and then remove it or move it to www.abhidhamma.org. There are 3 chapters missing which have already been put on the web as Realities and Concepts. These will be included in the print version. Robert For anyone downloading the file be prepared that it takes several minutes due to the size. TO read it acrobat reader 5 is needed: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html 15937 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Rob, << Hi Jim, I think that the problem is that I created it using Acrobat Reader ver 5 (available for free download). Might this help? >> I went and downloaded ver. 5 (8.6MB with a slow connection!!) only to find that it didn't solve the font problem. Perhaps an additional font pack has to be downloaded as well?? However, I'm glad I downloaded the upgrade because it allows for reverse video (white letters on a black background) unlike the older version. This makes it much easier for the visually-impaired to read pdf files. << I am new to Pali, so I find the Velthuis scheme to be confusing.>> It can be initially confusing but once you get the hang of it you'll see how simple it is. A long vowel is doubled: aa; for the special consonants you only have to be aware of these 3 marks: . ~ " a dot belongs to the letter it precedes and represents the undertyped dot; the other two are found only with the n: ~n and "n (the " represents the overtyped dot). Best wishes, Jim 15938 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: A can of worms (was: Accumulations)- Rob,Rob, Rob & Rob --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Suan & Rob M, > > Suan, thank you very much for your help in looking up the terms. > > I've now found `aalaya' in PED - in the article it just appears with a > short `a' which misled me. I think I'm clear now, but any further comments > or corrections are welcome. > > (I don't have the CD ROM - I believe it's not so simple with a macintosh > computer.) > > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > Here is the entry "Aalaya" on page 109 PED from PTS. > > > > "Alaya (p. 109) (m. & nt.) [cp. Sk. alaya, a + li, liyate, cp. allina > > & alliyati, also niralaya] -- > > > > 1. orig. roosting place, perch, i. e. abode settling place, house J > > I.10 (geh°); Miln 213; DhA II.162 (an° = anoka), 170 (= oka). -- > > > > 2. "hanging on", attachment, desire, clinging, lust S I.136 = Vin I.4 > > (°rama "devoted to the things to which it clings" K. S.); Vin III.20, > > 111; S IV.372 (an°); V.421 sq. (id.); > > > > For aalayaraama in AN: > > > > A II. 34, 131 (°rama); III.35; It 88; Sn 177 (kam° = kamesu tanha-- > > ditthi--vasena duvidho alayo SnA 216), 535 (+ asavani), 635; Nett > > 121, 123 (°samugghata); Vism 293 (id.), 497; Miln 203 (Buddh °n > > akasi?); DhA I.121; IV.186 (= tanha); SnA 468 (= anoka of Sn 366). -- > ..... > > I note (and have checked a few of the refs) that the second set of > meanings of `desire' or `lust' are most common for aalaya and aalayaraama > and as used in AN. > > I also note that in PED, it doesn't mention aalayavi~n~naa.na at all. > > I've now located the passage referred to in AN to support the suggestion > in the article by Dr Rahula that alaya is an `aspect of the alayavinnana' > referring to citta which is `luminous by nature' and so on and that which > is taken as self. > > B.bodhi's translation (AN 4s, 78 `Four Wonderful Things', p.109 in > Anthology) reads: > > "People generally find pleasure in attachments, take delight in > attachments and enjoy attachments. but when the dhamma of non- attachment > is taught by the Tathagata, people wish to listen to it, give ear and try > to understand it. this is the first wonderful and marvvellous thing that > appears on the manifestation of a Tathagata, an Arahant, a Fully > Enlightened One. > > (Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata > alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam > odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato > sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo > patubhavati.) > ***** > These meanings of aalaya conform with the common meaning given above, i.e > `attachment,desire, craving, lust'. There is no suggestion of citta or > vinnana or luminous or soul or self. As I mentioned before, I see no > suggestion of `alaya' in the Pali Canon referring to any store > consciousness either in any aspect. > > I have found where the term alayasamugghata is referred to in the Netti. > In the article it says that "'no-alaya', is another synonym for Nirvana'. > I don't think it's very commonly used in the Pali Canon (pls correct me). > In the Netti, it's translated as `the outguiding of lust' and is followed > by `the outguiding of hate' and `the outguiding of delusion'. So as we > know, no attachment means no rebirth, but I'm not sure it can be used as a > synonym for nibbana. > > In summary, when Dr Rahula suggests the `original idea of alayavijnana was > already there in the pali Canon of the Theravada', with all due respect, > with regard to meanings like citta, store consciousness, luminosity and so > on, I think this is a real `stretch'. Disagreements welcome! > ***** > > My other area of confusion, Rob, lies in the other thread on ayuhana. As > far as I know now, this has nothing to do with aalaya and has a completely > different meaning in every respect. Your original question referred to > ayuhana vinnana, described as "sub-conscious" but with a warning. You > mentioned store/no store in this connection and under the same thread > introduced the alaya vinnana article. > > We've now clarifed exactly what ayuhana (accumulation of cetana or > sankhara) is and what alaya (attachment, lust) is.They are completely > separate terms and I understand that any suggestions of > store-consciousness or sub-conscious are misleading for either. > > In the first place you mentioned that Dr k.Sri Dhammananda suggested that > sloth and torpor are prompted by ayuhana vinnana.In the Atthasalini we > read that they have ayoniso manasikara (unwise attention) "in not > arousing oneself from discontent and laziness (or indulgence), as > proximate cause. Thina and middha (sloth and torpor) can arise at anytime, > not just when we're tired, but whenever there isn't wise attention and > there is no kusala (wholesome) state. Certainly there must be akusala > cetana (intention) at these times and so I can understand the reference to > ayuhana in this connection, especially as it relates to the examples you > gave before of unwholesome kamma. > > I've learnt quite a lot from this research. Thank you very much Suan for > putting me on the right track and helping with the confusion. > > Rob, I particularly liked your post to Christine in which you realised the > difference between those details which are just an intellectual curiosity > and those points which will really help develop an understanding of the > Teachings. I think it's very helpful and important to know the difference > (which doesn't mean there can't be any curiosity;-)). > > This has been some very non-urgent fun and curiosity for me and also a way > of understanding what others are referring to better;-) Thanks for the > `prompting'. > > Sarah > ===== 15939 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: A can of worms (was: Accumulations)- Rob,Rob, Rob & Rob Dear Sarah I will do some reading on Mahayana idea of "Aalayaviññaa.na". After that, I plan to write something on this matter for your thread. Won't be long. With kind regards, Saun --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Suan & Rob M, > > Suan, thank you very much for your help in looking up the terms. > > I've now found `aalaya' in PED - in the article it just appears with a > short `a' which misled me. I think I'm clear now, but any further comments > or corrections are welcome. 15940 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Rob, I fixed the problem by downloading and installing MozPali.ttf which I found in a Google search and the text can now be read on both vers. 4 and 5. After taking a quick glance at the pdf text of MN 10, I can tell you that the text is quite faulty. What I've noticed so far: 1. "m and .m are mixed up. It has to be either one or the other throughout the text. .m is more commonly seen in PTS editions but Trenckner uses "m (an m with an overtyped dot). 2. kaaya kayaanupassii instead of kaaye kaayaanupassii. The erroneous 'a' ending instead of locative 'e' is very prevalent. See also samudaya instead of samudaye. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 1:36 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Jim, I think that the problem is that I created it using Acrobat Reader ver 5 (available for free download). Might this help? I am new to Pali, so I find the Velthuis scheme to be confusing. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hi Rob M., > > I downloaded the pdf file and the following is very similar to what > I'm seeing on my Acrobat Reader (ver. 4). > > "Ek¤yano aya· bhikkhave maggo satt¤na· visuddhiy¤ soka-pariddav¤na· > samatikkam¤ya dukkha-domanass¤na· atthagam¤ ¾¤yassa adhigam¤ya > nibb¤nassa sacchikiriy¤ya, yadida· catt¤ro satipaÂÂh¤n¤." > > So looking like this I can hardly begin to check it. Note that > 'atthagam¤' above should be 'atthagam¤ya'. I must be lacking a font. > Wouldn't it be better to have it in a plain text file (*.txt) which > can be read on any machine using the Velthuis scheme as follows: > > "Ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo sattaana.m visuddhiyaa > soka-pariddavaana.m samatikkamaaya dukkha-domanassaana.m > atthagamaaya ~naayassa adhigamaaya nibbaanassa sacchikiriyaaya, > yadida.m cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa." > > I could easily create such a text file for uploading, if desired. > Another advantage of this format is that any passage can be cut and > pasted directly into email messages without the need for special fonts > or font conversion. The Velthuis scheme for writing Pali and Sanskrit > is the one used by the Pali Text Society on their website and is > sometimes seen in email messages like this one. > > Best wishes, > > Jim > > > Hi Jim, > > > > I have uploaded a Pali version of the Satipatthana Sutta into the > > files section of the DSG. > > > > Could you please check it out and make sure that it is "okay". > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 15941 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: preparation for sati? Dear Rob M , I just butt in, Frank wants it that way :-) op 26-09-2002 12:24 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Hi Ken, > > There is a glass with water in it. The optimist "automatically" sees > the glass as "half full"; the classification happened because of his > perspective. The pessimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half > empty"; again his conditioning plays a role. A "mindful person" does > not see "half empty", does not see "half full", does not see "glass" > and does not see "water"; a "mindful person" only sees "visible > object". N: When mindful, it can be very natural, also seeing a glass, because you know that it is a nama which thinks. >R: something to learn (as a contrast, a skill is something that you > have to keep doing). I beleive that to learn a mindfulness > perspective, I have to practice meditation until it becomes natural. > I am hoping that once I have achived that level, that I will be able > to "turn mindfulness on" and "turn mindfulness off" as required (if > I am only ever aware of the present moment, I will certainly miss my > flight tomorrow). N: Mindfulness is not, imho, something one could turn on and off. There would again be a self. I should correct something I said to Howard: Of course, there is right concentration performing its function together with the other Path factors. But I meant: first doing something special, like a special technique, or even attainment of jhana, before there can be mindfulness. I do not believe there is an order: do this, than that, etc. It all depends on the accumulated right understanding, that is what matters, I think. But if someone prefers a special time for samatha, one of the meditation subjects, he has accumulated inclinations for doing so and it can come very naturally. For example, after having read a sutta, we can reflect on it, and this is Recollection of Dhamma. I admire your saddha and dedication, Rob, that you find time for meditation, preparing for your class, helping with the archives. How do you do it all? R: In other words, we can be mindful of > both akusala and kusala. I am of the understanding that mindfulness > is an activity of the determining citta, a kiriya citta. N: Right, both kusala and akusala can be the object. But, mindfulness has to accompany sobhana citta, it could not be determining, an ahetuka kiriya citta. Mindfulness chooses its own time to arise, and it arises very naturally and fast, even when rushing for your plane. It could never interfere with all your activities. My impression of the Intro to the Satipatthana sutta: satipatthana is seen as such a strenuous, hard practice, and it is said that one has to prepare the mind for it. Why should it be so strenuous? There must be viriya, which overcomes laziness, but, together with panna. And none of the cetasikas is self. Through panna as leader viriya can keep the Middle Way. Best wishes, Nina. > 15942 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 10:01am Subject: The Perfections, Ch 5, Wisdom, no 13 The Perfections, Ch 5, Wisdom, no 13 Listening to the Dhamma is most beneficial if we let ourselves be guided by the Dhamma and investigate our own citta. When we hear about a person¹s death, it can remind us of the truth and to reflect upon ourselves. The person who died may have been full of attachment, he may have liked paintings, music, or other beautiful objects that were enticing. We should reflect upon our own cittas, and consider whether we are like the person who died. We can be reminded of momentary death, of the shortness of each moment of citta that arises and falls away immediately. If we have a great deal of attachment, if we cling to possessions, we should remember that in reality when something appears through the eyes, attachment and delight arise just at the moment of seeing; when a beautiful sound appears through the ears, attachment arises just at the moment of hearing that sound. When a delicious odour appears it conditions attachment only for an extremely short moment, when that odour is smelt. It is the same with flavour and tangible object. We can see in our daily life that even though rúpa which arises falls away very rapidly, there is still attachment to that rúpa which lasts for such a short moment. There is ignorance and attachment so long as paññå is not being developed. When we notice a person who is full of dosa, we should reflect upon our own citta, we should consider whether we are often angry, or whether we are irritated and disturbed time and again, or whether we are vengeful towards someone else. We should know that in reality there is no person. We have met the person we are angry with only during one life, and after this life he is no longer there. Should we be angry with him after he has passed away? So long as we see that person we may have angry thoughts about him or be irritated about him, but we should remember that he will not be for a long time in this world and depart for ever; from then on there will not be any longer this person. When we meet someone, we never know whether this is the last time that we see him and if we do not consider this we may treat him badly. Whereas, if we realize that this may be the last opportunity that we see him, it may condition the citta to be humble and gentle, we can have kindness and compassion. Before we studied the Dhamma we had no understanding of the realities appearing through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door. We had a great deal of ignorance. By listening to the Dhamma we can come to know that there are realities appearing each with their own characteristic and that we should study these. We should not merely study them in theory, or merely listen to the explanation about them without carefully considering their true nature. We should remember that at this very moment realities are appearing and that the true characteristics of those dhammas which arise and fall away should be penetrated. Hence we can be reminded that we should listen and thoroughly consider the Dhamma, so that understanding is accumulated. Understanding conditions sati to be aware of the characteristics of the dhammas at this moment, with perseverance. If we know that we still have a great deal of ignorance, moha, which should be eradicated, there are conditions to continue to listen to the Dhamma and to develop each kind of kusala. ***** 15943 From: uanchihliu Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:36am Subject: Fwd: Re: Panna and characteristics Dear Robert, Thank you for sharing the conversation with us. I, too, am new to Buddhism, and I hope the question I am about to post does not sound too stupid. You said that > > The labelling and conceptualsing is bound to happen . However there > can be direct insight before any labelling. there can also be insight > while labelling (knowing that this is only thinking). Isn't insight also citta? Doesn't it also arise and fall? A lot of meditation involves observing the rise and falls of thoughts, so who is observing the rise and fall? Isn't the experience of observing the rise and fall a citta? Is that ultimately the meaning of emptiness? Also, I've seen some posts about accumulation and learning, what is "it" that is learning and "what" is being accumulate? And there was a mention of going through many cycles of samsara, "what" is going through many cycles of samsara if there is there is no inherent existence? WL 15944 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Jim, I believe that it will be useful to have a Pali version of the Sutta available to those involved in the discussion. However, perhaps having a bad version may increase misunderstandings rather than lessen them. If you feel that it might be better to delete this file, then I will do so. Do you a better version that could be posted? I appreciate your efforts and you expertise. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I fixed the problem by downloading and installing MozPali.ttf which I > found in a Google search and the text can now be read on both vers. 4 > and 5. After taking a quick glance at the pdf text of MN 10, I can > tell you that the text is quite faulty. > > What I've noticed so far: > > 1. "m and .m are mixed up. It has to be either one or the other > throughout the text. .m is more commonly seen in PTS editions but > Trenckner uses "m (an m with an overtyped dot). > > 2. kaaya kayaanupassii instead of kaaye kaayaanupassii. The erroneous > 'a' ending instead of locative 'e' is very prevalent. See also > samudaya instead of samudaye. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "robmoult" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 1:36 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage > > > Hi Jim, > > I think that the problem is that I created it using Acrobat Reader > ver 5 (available for free download). Might this help? > > I am new to Pali, so I find the Velthuis scheme to be confusing. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" > wrote: > > Hi Rob M., > > > > I downloaded the pdf file and the following is very similar to what > > I'm seeing on my Acrobat Reader (ver. 4). > > > > "Ek¤yano aya· bhikkhave maggo satt¤na· visuddhiy¤ soka- pariddav¤na· > > samatikkam¤ya dukkha-domanass¤na· atthagam¤ ¾¤yassa adhigam¤ya > > nibb¤nassa sacchikiriy¤ya, yadida· catt¤ro satipaÂÂh¤n¤." > > > > So looking like this I can hardly begin to check it. Note that > > 'atthagam¤' above should be 'atthagam¤ya'. I must be lacking a > font. > > Wouldn't it be better to have it in a plain text file (*.txt) which > > can be read on any machine using the Velthuis scheme as follows: > > > > "Ekaayano aya.m bhikkhave maggo sattaana.m visuddhiyaa > > soka-pariddavaana.m samatikkamaaya dukkha-domanassaana.m > > atthagamaaya ~naayassa adhigamaaya nibbaanassa sacchikiriyaaya, > > yadida.m cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa." > > > > I could easily create such a text file for uploading, if desired. > > Another advantage of this format is that any passage can be cut and > > pasted directly into email messages without the need for special > fonts > > or font conversion. The Velthuis scheme for writing Pali and > Sanskrit > > is the one used by the Pali Text Society on their website and is > > sometimes seen in email messages like this one. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Jim > > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > > > I have uploaded a Pali version of the Satipatthana Sutta into the > > > files section of the DSG. > > > > > > Could you please check it out and make sure that it is "okay". > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Rob M :-) 15945 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 1:48pm Subject: for the mind to be alive and interested within the mass of humanity Dear List, I've noticed that my metta practice is limited and my mind doesn't really relate to the mass of humanity (I just looked at the prayer circle directory at BeliefNet.com - it is huge!). I understand that I can only relate in speech and actions with a few people but the mind is very fast and I think there is a possibility of cultivating metta creatively to many beings in different categories. I've read that mudita (appreciative joy) is an antidote for boredom so I'm particularly looking for ways of healing the internal split between "me" and "other people" so that the mind is alive and interested. Please share your experiences and insights with opening the mind in this way. Thanks / Antony. 15946 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:02pm Subject: Re: preparation for sati? Hi Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M , > I just butt in, Frank wants it that way :-) === To be honest, I was hoping that you would butt in and provide some guidance :-) I feel that I am groping in the dark a bit here and I am hoping that somebody can point me in a direction. Some of my questions stem from intellectual curiosity, but this question is very close to my heart. === > > > Hi Ken, > > > > There is a glass with water in it. The optimist "automatically" sees > > the glass as "half full"; the classification happened because of his > > perspective. The pessimist "automatically" sees the glass as "half > > empty"; again his conditioning plays a role. A "mindful person" does > > not see "half empty", does not see "half full", does not see "glass" > > and does not see "water"; a "mindful person" only sees "visible > > object". > N: When mindful, it can be very natural, also seeing a glass, because you > know that it is a nama which thinks. === Do I understand that it is okay to "name" when one is mindful, as long as one understands that this is "naming" (i.e. not taking the glass as a reality)? If so, where does it stop? I read somewhere about the progressive processes of the mind door process after a sense door process had completed. It gave (just as an example, not as a fixed sequence) the following: 1. Sense door process: reproduce the image of an object at sense door 2. Mind door process: construct whole picture 3. Mind door process: percieve colour 4. Mind door process: conceptualize shape 5. Mind door process: designate as "flower" 6. Mind door process: judge as "rose" 7. Mind door process: classify as "red rose" 8. Mind door process: attachment to "red rose" In this example, the first three processes generated "weak kamma", the next four processes generated "strong kamma" and the final process generated "very strong kamma". If we are restricted to only sense door processes, we would be unable to function effectively. However, can it be taken to the other extreme? Specifically, while being mindful, can we have attachment to the red rose, as long as we know that this is attachment? Somehow, this doesn't seem right (isn't it equivalent to saying that it's okay to have akusala cittas, as long as they are followed by mindfulness of that attachement). In other words, given the somewhat arbitrary listing above, at what process number (1-8) would a "mindful" person stop? === > >R: something to learn (as a contrast, a skill is something that you > > have to keep doing). I beleive that to learn a mindfulness > > perspective, I have to practice meditation until it becomes natural. > > I am hoping that once I have achived that level, that I will be able > > to "turn mindfulness on" and "turn mindfulness off" as required (if > > I am only ever aware of the present moment, I will certainly miss my > > flight tomorrow). > N: Mindfulness is not, imho, something one could turn on and off. There > would again be a self. === I guess my thinking here is that in order to function effectively, one would need to have more than the first process in the arbitrary list of eight above. I guess that if a mindful person were allowed to perform the first seven of the eight processes listed above, then they would be able to function in daily life without generating very strong kamma. === > I should correct something I said to Howard: prerequisite for satipatthana.> Of course, there is right concentration > performing its function together with the other Path factors. But I meant: > first doing something special, like a special technique, or even attainment > of jhana, before there can be mindfulness. I do not believe there is an > order: do this, than that, etc. It all depends on the accumulated right > understanding, that is what matters, I think. But if someone prefers a > special time for samatha, one of the meditation subjects, he has accumulated > inclinations for doing so and it can come very naturally. For example, after > having read a sutta, we can reflect on it, and this is Recollection of === Again, I think of mindfulness as a "perspective", rather than as a "skill". It is not a prerequisite to meditate to gain a perspective of mindfulness, however I am hoping that reflecting on meditation experiences will help one gain a mindfulness perspective. === > Dhamma. I admire your saddha and dedication, Rob, that you find time for > meditation, preparing for your class, helping with the archives. How do you > do it all? === Three factors: - I am inspired by the Dhamma. - I have an supportive wife. - My job gives me lots of time in airplanes and hotel rooms. === > R: In other words, we can be mindful of > > both akusala and kusala. I am of the understanding that mindfulness > > is an activity of the determining citta, a kiriya citta. > N: Right, both kusala and akusala can be the object. But, mindfulness has to > accompany sobhana citta, it could not be determining, an ahetuka kiriya > citta. > Mindfulness chooses its own time to arise, and it arises very naturally and > fast, even when rushing for your plane. It could never interfere with all > your activities. === I am starting to understand that with the millions of cittas every microsecond, there is "lots of time" for mindfulness in daily life. === > My impression of the Intro to the Satipatthana sutta: satipatthana is seen > as such a strenuous, hard practice, and it is said that one has to prepare > the mind for it. Why should it be so strenuous? There must be viriya, which > overcomes laziness, but, together with panna. And none of the cetasikas is > self. Through panna as leader viriya can keep the Middle Way. > Best wishes, > Nina. > > === Nina, I feel that you are starting to point me in the right direction. I would value any further input or advice. Thanks, Rob M :-) 15947 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Rob M, Jim, and All, I am fairly computer illiterate and need help with respect to understanding fonts and how to download them properly and how to install and use them. I often read articles on the Internet that says something like 'to view this correctly you will need xyz font -click to download'. (I'm very good up to the clicking stage :) I click, it downloads, and then disappears into the inside of my computer, and the world goes on exactly as it always did, with no improvements. Once upon a time, with great jubilation, I got something (the MozPali one, I think) to appear on my desktop. But the world goes on ...etc. etc. Do you think you could assist me - I've just about given up. I would need extremely simple and specific directions. Please, imagine you are instructing a six year old - instructions CANNOT be too simple. I need to know: 1. Which are the best font/s to download to view (and type) Pali words correctly 2. Where to obtain them 3. How to download them 4.Where to store them so I won't forget where I've put them, 'inside there'. 5.How they are used when needed - do I have to DO something each time I want to read or type Pali... i.e. Do I have to 'turn them on/off' for use. 6. Anything else worth knowing. "As long as I live, so long do I learn" metta, Christine 15948 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:24pm Subject: Re: for the mind to be alive and interested within the mass of humanity Hi Antony, Here is a point of view that might help. Something bad happens to you and you have three options: 1. You respond with bad 2. You respond with good 3. You do not respond Option 1 means, "bad in, bad out", you are reinforcing, propogating and more widely distributing (through your interactions with others) the bad in this world. With this approach, how can the world ever get any better? It can only get worse. You are a part of this universe, and just as any other part, your actions impact the rest of the universe. I see metta meditation as an internal exercise to develop a "metta mind" rather than a source of "psychic lighting" that is going to jump across space and impact others directly. If you develop a "metta mind", then you will automatically (automatically because it is a habit, developed through training) respond to bad with good (option 2 above) and not only will you stop one stream of the flow of bad in this world, you will initiate a new stream of good, which through your interactions with others will hopefully be propogated and make the world a better place. Mudita is a cure for boredom because it gives energy. Imagine the following scenario. You attend a recital where a child is playing the piano. The child finishes their difficult piece and has performed well. You see the child looking at the front row. You see the child's parents and teacher in the front row with big smiles on their faces. The feeling in your heart at as you observe the child, parents and teacher is one of Mudita; there is an energy. Hope that this helps. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear List, > > I've noticed that my metta practice is limited and my mind doesn't > really relate to the mass of humanity (I just looked at the prayer > circle directory at BeliefNet.com - it is huge!). > > I understand that I can only relate in speech and actions with a few > people but the mind is very fast and I think there is a possibility > of cultivating metta creatively to many beings in different > categories. > > I've read that mudita (appreciative joy) is an antidote for boredom > so I'm particularly looking for ways of healing the internal split > between "me" and "other people" so that the mind is alive and > interested. > > Please share your experiences and insights with opening the mind in > this way. > > Thanks / Antony. 15949 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Christine, I can help you on the technical aspect... as far as what fonts to download, download as many as you want. They are very small files and having too many can't hurt you in any way. Here are the instructions: 1. Click on the "Click here to download the XXX font". 2. You are then asked where you want to download the font to. My advice is to always download to the desktop (easy to find, easy to delete later) 3. The download should be quite quick (less than a minute) as the font files are small. A new file will now appear on your desktop. 4. If it is a .ZIP file, then you will have to open it first using WINZIP (people sometimes use WINZIP so that they can bundle multiple related font files together such as normal, bold, italics) 5. All font files are stored in one directory on your system, the WINDOWS\FONTS directory. Now we have to get the fonts that you have downloaded into this directory. If the downloaded file was a font file, then you can use cut and paste with Windows Explorer to move the font file to its new home. if you downloaded a .zip file, you will "Extract to" and select the WINDOWS\FONTS directory. 6. You may have to restart the application (i.e. close WORD and restart it again) for the new fonts to be recognized. I have on occasion had to restart my computer to get the fonts to be recognized. 7. Once the fonts have been recognized, you don't need the file on your desktop any more. The Pali fonts that I have accumulated on my PC are: - Mangal - MozPali - Normyn - p Charter - Raavi - Shruti - Timesnorman - Tipitaka (used for my class notes) - Tunga - VRI RomanPali DD I have no idea what most of these are for. I probably don't need so many. Let me know if this is okay. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, Jim, and All, > > I am fairly computer illiterate and need help with respect to > understanding fonts and how to download them properly and how to > install and use them. > I often read articles on the Internet that says something like 'to > view this correctly you will need xyz font -click to download'. (I'm > very good up to the clicking stage :) > I click, it downloads, and then disappears into the inside of my > computer, and the world goes on exactly as it always did, with no > improvements. Once upon a time, with great jubilation, I got > something (the MozPali one, I think) to appear on my desktop. But the > world goes on ...etc. etc. > Do you think you could assist me - I've just about given up. I would > need extremely simple and specific directions. Please, imagine you > are instructing a six year old - instructions CANNOT be too simple. > I need to know: 1. Which are the best font/s to download to view (and > type) Pali words correctly 2. Where to obtain them 3. How to > download them 4.Where to store them so I won't forget where I've put > them, 'inside there'. 5.How they are used when needed - do I have to > DO something each time I want to read or type Pali... i.e. Do I have > to 'turn them on/off' for use. 6. Anything else worth > knowing. "As long as I live, so long do I learn" > > metta, > Christine 15950 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage This is much appreciated Rob - I will try the instructions out over the weekend and get back to you if there are any difficulties. Thank you, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I can help you on the technical aspect... as far as what fonts to > download, download as many as you want. They are very small files > and having too many can't hurt you in any way. > > Here are the instructions: > 1. Click on the "Click here to download the XXX font". > 2. You are then asked where you want to download the font to. My > advice is to always download to the desktop (easy to find, easy to > delete later) > 3. The download should be quite quick (less than a minute) as the > font files are small. A new file will now appear on your desktop. > 4. If it is a .ZIP file, then you will have to open it first using > WINZIP (people sometimes use WINZIP so that they can bundle multiple > related font files together such as normal, bold, italics) > 5. All font files are stored in one directory on your system, the > WINDOWS\FONTS directory. Now we have to get the fonts that you have > downloaded into this directory. If the downloaded file was a font > file, then you can use cut and paste with Windows Explorer to move > the font file to its new home. if you downloaded a .zip file, you > will "Extract to" and select the WINDOWS\FONTS directory. > 6. You may have to restart the application (i.e. close WORD and > restart it again) for the new fonts to be recognized. I have on > occasion had to restart my computer to get the fonts to be > recognized. > 7. Once the fonts have been recognized, you don't need the file on > your desktop any more. > > The Pali fonts that I have accumulated on my PC are: > - Mangal > - MozPali > - Normyn > - p Charter > - Raavi > - Shruti > - Timesnorman > - Tipitaka (used for my class notes) > - Tunga > - VRI RomanPali DD > > I have no idea what most of these are for. I probably don't need so > many. > > Let me know if this is okay. > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 15951 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 3:11pm Subject: A Step to Improving Understanding of "Free Will" Hi All, Last night, I read an intesting passage in Visuddhimagga XIV (Description of the Aggregates) para 152 (Attention / Manasikara): It is the maker of what is to be made, it is the maker in the mind (manamhi karo), thus it is attention (bringing-to-mind - manasi- kara). It makes the mind different from the previous [life continuum] mind, thus it is attention. It has three ways of doing this: as the controller of the object, as the controller of the cognitive series, and as the controller of impulsions. Herein, the controller of the object is the maker in the mind, thus it is attention. That has the characterisitic of conducting (sarana). Its function is to yoke associated states to the object. It is manifested as confrontation with an object. Its proximate cause is an object. It should be regarded as the conductor (sarathi) of associated states by controlling the object, itself being included in the formations aggregate. Controller of the cognitive series is a term for five door adverting. Controller of impulsions is a term for mind door adverting. These last two are not included here. My interpretation of this is as follows: Whereas in the adverting stage of the sense door process, attention (manasikara) controlled the mind to advert to the new object, in the determining citta, attention (manasikara) controls the javana. This control is strengthened through conviction, which is the characteristic of resolution (adhimokkha). If wise attention (yoniso manasikara) is applied, the object is "seen as it truly is" (with mindfulness) and the following javana cittas will be kusala. If unwise attention (ayoniso manasikara) is applied, there is no mindfulness and the following javana cittas will be akusala (lobha- mula, dosa-mula or moha-mula). For me, this is a major step away from the wrong view of a self who can intervene in the thought process to exercise "free will" to determine the javana path to be taken. I understanding that it is the form of attention (wise or unwise) that determines the direction (akusala vs. kusala) in the thought process. Form of attention is conditioned by accumulations, but is it fixed (i.e. determinism)? If not, what other factors (other than a self) are at play here? I feel that I am one step closer, but not yet 100% clear, Thanks, Rob M :-) 15952 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Rob M., << I believe that it will be useful to have a Pali version of the Sutta available to those involved in the discussion. However, perhaps having a bad version may increase misunderstandings rather than lessen them. >> Jim: Yes, I agree that a Pali version of the sutta (MN 10) will be useful. It's not all that bad, see next. << If you feel that it might be better to delete this file, then I will do so. Do you a better version that could be posted? >> Jim: I had another look at the file and find that it is not so bad that you should delete it. The PTS edition in the original by Trenckner is fine. If you could correct the errors on the first page I think it would be good enough for the purposes of this list. I have a Burmese version of MN 10 that I extracted from the CSCD disk and converted to the Velthuis scheme which could be uploaded but I don't know if it is really necessary to have two versions of the same sutta. One problem with the Burmese version is that it is an enlarged version like the one found at DN 22 where the four nobles truths are explained in greater detail. This surprised me as I thought the shorter version was pretty much the standard for MN. There is a Sinhalese Pali version at http://www.metta.lk/ Just click on Tipitaka and follow the links to MN 10. You need to have the Times_csx+ font installed in order to read it. Best wishes, Jim 15953 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 5:27pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Panna and characteristics --- Dear WL, I think these questions are very useful, you really consider. Comments interspersed: In dhammastudygroup@y..., "uanchihliu" wrote: ROBERT: The labelling and conceptualsing is bound to happen . However there > > can be direct insight before any labelling. there can also be > insight > > while labelling (knowing that this is only thinking). ___________ WL:Isn't insight also citta? _________ Insight is panna cetasika (amoha) - a mental factor that arises with (some) cittas. Citta is the chief in experiencing the object. There can be knowing of the characteristic of a dhamma with panna (insight) or without. Either way knows the characteristic but only if there is panna is there real insight. It is very subtle and insight always comes with a degree of detachment and equanimity; there is no "me" who is having the insight. --------- Doesn't it also arise and fall? A lot of > meditation involves observing the rise and falls of thoughts, so who > is observing the rise and fall? Isn't the experience of observing > the rise and fall a citta? Is that ultimately the meaning of > emptiness? > _____________ We must be careful when we talk about rise and fall. Sometimes I hear people talk about rise and fall when they are, for example, knowing that a thought has changed or they know that felings are changing. However, this is merely thinking about impermanence. The actual experience of rise and fall depends on developed insight. Dhammas arsies and fall billions in a split second. No "one" can catch them but insight penetrates the characteristics of the different dhammas (realities) and sees the actual rise and fall , so the scriptures say. Before this stage there has to be the direct insight into the different characteristics so that the difference between nama and rupa is known. The insight that knows any of this is also conditioned and it also arises and falls away immediately: but it accumulates, ayuhana, given the right conditions, and so arises more frequently and becomes powerful so that it can know reality as it really is. _________ > Also, I've seen some posts about accumulation and learning, what > is "it" that is learning and "what" is being accumulate? And there > was a mention of going through many cycles of samsara, "what" is > going through many cycles of samsara if there is there is no inherent > existence? _______ Good question. Samsara is simply the khandas(the five aggregates) that are continually arising and passing. There is no one on the path, no one who is learning- but there is a path and there is learning. This letter I wrote a while back might clarify: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11609 Robert > > WL 15954 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:05pm Subject: Pali fonts, was Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Hi Rob M, and all, Think I'm doing something wrong. I downloaded the MozPali font from http://www.buddhadust.org/ThePaliLine/ThePaliLineTOC.htm to the desktop, and extracted it to Windows\fonts. Then I restarted the computer, and to test if the font had been accepted, I went to >http://www.buddhadust.org/TheMulaPariyaya/mulapariyayainpalii.htm#The Pali< to see the Mulapariyaya Sutta in Pali. But it has little square boxes and fractional numbers all over the page, so I guess something is not working correctly. I have re-checked and the MozPali fonts are definitely in the Windows\fonts folder. Any suggestions? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > This is much appreciated Rob - I will try the instructions out over > the weekend and get back to you if there are any difficulties. > Thank you, > Chris > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > > > I can help you on the technical aspect... as far as what fonts to > > download, download as many as you want. They are very small files > > and having too many can't hurt you in any way. > > > > Here are the instructions: > > 1. Click on the "Click here to download the XXX font". > > 2. You are then asked where you want to download the font to. My > > advice is to always download to the desktop (easy to find, easy to > > delete later) > > 3. The download should be quite quick (less than a minute) as the > > font files are small. A new file will now appear on your desktop. > > 4. If it is a .ZIP file, then you will have to open it first using > > WINZIP (people sometimes use WINZIP so that they can bundle > multiple > > related font files together such as normal, bold, italics) > > 5. All font files are stored in one directory on your system, the > > WINDOWS\FONTS directory. Now we have to get the fonts that you have > > downloaded into this directory. If the downloaded file was a font > > file, then you can use cut and paste with Windows Explorer to move > > the font file to its new home. if you downloaded a .zip file, you > > will "Extract to" and select the WINDOWS\FONTS directory. > > 6. You may have to restart the application (i.e. close WORD and > > restart it again) for the new fonts to be recognized. I have on > > occasion had to restart my computer to get the fonts to be > > recognized. > > 7. Once the fonts have been recognized, you don't need the file on > > your desktop any more. > > > > The Pali fonts that I have accumulated on my PC are: > > - Mangal > > - MozPali > > - Normyn > > - p Charter > > - Raavi > > - Shruti > > - Timesnorman > > - Tipitaka (used for my class notes) > > - Tunga > > - VRI RomanPali DD > > > > I have no idea what most of these are for. I probably don't need so > > many. > > > > Let me know if this is okay. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob M :-) 15955 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:18pm Subject: Pali fonts It's O.K. Rob - the god of the computer seems to have given permission for it to work .... after a while. Many thanks. Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob M, and all, > > Think I'm doing something wrong. I downloaded the MozPali font from > http://www.buddhadust.org/ThePaliLine/ThePaliLineTOC.htm to the > desktop, and extracted it to Windows\fonts. > Then I restarted the computer, and to test if the font had been > accepted, I went to > >http://www.buddhadust.org/TheMulaPariyaya/mulapariyayainpalii.htm#The > Pali< > to see the Mulapariyaya Sutta in Pali. But it has little square > boxes and fractional numbers all over the page, so I guess something > is not working correctly. I have re-checked and the MozPali fonts are > definitely in the Windows\fonts folder. > Any suggestions? > > metta, > Christine 15956 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 7:37pm Subject: Re: Pali fonts Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > It's O.K. Rob - the god of the computer seems to have given > permission for it to work .... after a while. Many thanks. > Chris I understand perfectly. When Pali was first thrown at me, it took me a while to recover too :-) We all understand that a computer and the software running on it is a bunch of empty processes, yet we are all so quick to assign a "personality" (even a Deity status!). How deep is our inclination towards "self"! Thanks, Rob M :-) 15957 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:21pm Subject: Re: Survey of Paramattha Dhammas Hi Nina, Rob K, and all, Isn't this a great book! Thanks for this very clear and understandable translation, Nina. Much gratitude and appreciation. :) I am finding Part VI Dialogue on Vipassana, Chapter 3, The Meaning of Anatta of great interest and really beneficial. I realise I should probably be reading from page 1 to the end - but I never do that - I read what interests me first and then do the 'page 1 straight through' method next. A couple of questions - if it is to be printed soon, how long do you reckon before it is available for purchase? And from where? In reading about rebirth in either happy or unhappy Planes - it always seems strange that human birth is called one of the happy Planes of existence. There never seems much of that around anywhere. As the saying goes - we are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things get worse. If we really understand anatta, even intellectually, if we really believe there exists only 'this continually self-consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena'(Nyanatiloka) which could be re-born where the Dhamma could not be heard, how can we not feel a sense of urgency? metta, Christine ------------------------------------ Excerpt: "There are only dhammas, citta, cetasika and rupa, which arise and then fall away. Life, in the ultimate sense, lasts only as long as one single moment of citta. "If we reflect time and again on death it can support the development of satipatthana. If we consider that we may die this afternoon or tomorrow, it can be a supporting condition for sati to be aware of the characteristics of nama and rupa that appear. For those who have not realized the noble Truths, thus, for those who are not ariyans, it is not certain whether, after the dying-consciousness has fallen away the rebith-consciousness will arise in a happy plane or in an unhappy plane of existence. It is not certain whether there will be again an opportunity to listen to the Dhamma and to develop satipatthana." "At death a person parts with everthing in this life, it is all over. There is nothing left, not even remembrance. When a person is born into this life he does not remember who he was, where he lived and what he did in his former life. His existence as a particular person in a former life has come to an end. Even so in this life, everything comes to an end. A person performs kusala kamma and akusala kamma, he may have conceit about his race, family, possessions, honour and fame, all this comes to an end. There will be no ties left with all the things in this life. All that we find so important in this life, all that we are holding on to and take for self, will come to an end. If people realize the true characteristics of paramattha dhammas that arise because of their own conditions, they will eliminate the inclination to take them for beings, people, self." --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear group. > I uploaded a pdf file of Sujin Boriharnwanakets "Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas" . This book has been popular in Thailand for many years in > the original Thai and Nina Van Gorkoms translation is now ready for > publication. I will be arranging the printing while in Thailand and I > put this edition here so that Nina can read it - her apple computer > can:t properly read my windows version. Mike Nease did the formatting > of the book. > I will keep it on for a few weeks and then remove it or move it to > www.abhidhamma.org. > There are 3 chapters missing which have already been put on the web > as Realities and Concepts. These will be included in the print > version. > Robert > For anyone downloading the file be prepared that it takes several > minutes due to the size. TO read it acrobat reader 5 is needed: > http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html 15958 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:18am Subject: Re: Survey of Paramattha Dhammas --- Dear Christine, Thanks for giving us the lovely quote from the book. Just to answer your question:> A couple of questions - if it is to be printed soon, how long do you > reckon before it is available for purchase? And from where? " All of the books printed in Bangkok by the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation (most of which are in Thai but maybe 6 or 7 in English ) are printed through donations for free distribution. You will be able to pick up a copy once it is printed or have it sent to you. It is hard to judge when exactly it will get printed because the way it works is that the best and most reasonably priced printers usually have the longest waiting times. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hi Nina, Rob K, and all, > > Isn't this a great book! Thanks for this very clear and > understandable translation, Nina. Much gratitude and appreciation. :) > I am finding Part VI Dialogue on Vipassana, Chapter 3, The Meaning > of Anatta of great interest and really beneficial. > I realise I should probably be reading from page 1 to the end - but I > never do that - I read what interests me first and then do the 'page > 1 straight through' method next. > > In reading about rebirth in either happy or unhappy Planes - it > always seems strange that human birth is called one of the happy > Planes of existence. There never seems much of that around anywhere. > As the saying goes - we are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then things > get worse. > If we really understand anatta, even intellectually, if we really > believe there exists only 'this continually self-consuming process of > .html 15959 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Dear group, Yesterday, I wrote: << One problem with the Burmese version is that it is an enlarged version like the one found at DN 22 where the four nobles truths are explained in greater detail. This surprised me as I thought the shorter version was pretty much the standard for MN. >> I have since done some further comparing of five different versions of the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta (MN 10) and what I have found is that out of the five, three of them are of the shorter version as follows: 1. The PTS edition by V. Trenckner (1888) M I pp. 55-63. In the Various Readings at the back of the book on page 534 there is this note for p. 62, line 24: "After pajaanaati M interpolates a passage of some length, borrowed from the Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta of DN." M refers to the Phayre Ms. (in Burmese characters) at the India Office Library. I also noticed that though the pdf file that Rob M. uploaded to the files section is copied from Trenckner, the long detailed passage (not found in Trenckner) on the 4 noble truths has been inserted into it. I traced this copy back to buddhadust.org in the section on Satipatthana Resources. 2. The Devanagari edition by the Pali Publication Board (Bihar Government) 1958. 3. The Sri Lankan BJT version found at metta.lk. Nothing is mentioned in the footnotes of 2 & 3 about the long detailed passage included in some of the other editions. The following two versions have the long passage included in MN 10: 4. The Burmese Chatthasangayana version on the CSCD disk. It is entitled: Mahaasatipa.t.thaansutta. Also online at tipitaka.org. 5. The Thai version found on the Budsir IV disk (from Bangkok). It can also be found online at budsir.org. Now the question is which is the correct version, the shorter one or the longer one? I looked in the MN commentary and found the following line which might be of help in deciding on which: "The rest of the explanation of the Real Truths is in the Path of Purity [Visuddhimagga]." -- Soma Thera, p. 192. This seems to point to a longer version. Best wishes, Jim 15960 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Panna and characteristics Dear Rob and Christine, I really enjoyed your dialogue, so lively and so basic. Nina. op 27-09-2002 03:29 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op robertkirkpatrick@r...: > And this is something you would not have known before learning > Dhamma. This theoretical knowledge serves as the basis for direct > testing. 15961 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 10:00am Subject: Satipatthana sutta, small parts Dear Larry, Thank you for all your efforts. A suggestion: could we get shorter pieces once we are at the Co? When it is long to read it does not invite to discussion, I feel. What do you think? With appreciation, Nina. 15962 From: Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana sutta, small parts Hi Nina, I would be happy to post smaller sections of the comy. I know everyone is eager to discuss this so I'm trying to get through the intro as quickly as possible without overwhelming people. I think it would also facilitate understanding to have the book in hand. Some of the commentary ventures rather far afield and it would be easy to get lost. Larry ------------------ Nina: "Dear Larry, Thank you for all your efforts. A suggestion: could we get shorter pieces once we are at the Co? When it is long to read it does not invite to discussion, I feel. What do you think? With appreciation, Nina." 15963 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 1:21pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana sutta, small parts --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry, Thank you for all your efforts. > A suggestion: could we get shorter pieces once we are at the Co? When it is > long to read it does not invite to discussion, I feel. What do you think? > With appreciation, > Nina. Hi. I'm just jumping in from out of nowhere with no right to do so, but....How about posting the whole com for a read-through, and then take it in sections for discussion after that? Best of both worlds? Best, Robert Ep. 15964 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 1:22pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana sutta, small parts --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry, Thank you for all your efforts. > A suggestion: could we get shorter pieces once we are at the Co? When it is > long to read it does not invite to discussion, I feel. What do you think? > With appreciation, > Nina. Or: if you think it will be distracting to post the whole com at once, how about putting it into the dsg 'files' section so that those interested can download it and read it? Best, Robert Ep. 15965 From: Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana sutta, small parts Dear Rob Ep, you haven't been paying attention. The whole thing is here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Larry 15966 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana sutta, small parts Dear Rob Ep, Nina, Larry and all, It's 440k and 147pp. - perhaps a bit difficult for some to download as a whole. Maybe those who have the capability can download from ATI, and the rest can await the small bits. I think having a current 'small bit' posted keeps us all on the same page, so to speak. :) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, you haven't been paying attention. The whole thing is here: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Larry 15967 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 6:44pm Subject: Re: for the mind to be alive and interested within the mass of humanity Hi Antony, I have noticed this post on a couple of lists - which is a fair indication that it is important to you. You may have noticed the differing quantity and style of the replies you received. Perhaps you may care to read some posts on a rather stimulating discussion from last November on DSG. You may be surprised at the understanding some people have of what the Scriptures actually say of 'what metta is' and 'to whom it should be pervaded'. I was. If you have time to read the posts, I am sure there would be interest from others in a discussion from any perspective. The posts mentioned above are: 9276, 9281, 9309, 9318, 9322, 9342, 9347, 9349, 9360, 9362, 9367, 9402, 9404, 9461. with metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear List, > > I've noticed that my metta practice is limited and my mind doesn't > really relate to the mass of humanity (I just looked at the prayer > circle directory at BeliefNet.com - it is huge!). > > I understand that I can only relate in speech and actions with a few > people but the mind is very fast and I think there is a possibility > of cultivating metta creatively to many beings in different > categories. > > I've read that mudita (appreciative joy) is an antidote for boredom > so I'm particularly looking for ways of healing the internal split > between "me" and "other people" so that the mind is alive and > interested. > > Please share your experiences and insights with opening the mind in > this way. > > Thanks / Antony. > > > 15968 From: rahula_80 Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 9:13pm Subject: New Group Hi, There is a new discussion group (I am the moderator) to discuss the error of Shakya Aryanatta's translation. Many have been misled by SA's translations including some of my friends. Most Buddhist do not know Pali well. I believe Buddhist who are knowledgeble in Pali should contribute to prove SA's error once and for all for the benefit of fellow Buddhist so that they will not fall into his error. I am thinking of making a website or compiled it into a book proving his error. Your help is needed. Please visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaliTrans/ Thanks, Rahula 15969 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 11:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana sutta, small parts --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, you haven't been paying attention. The whole thing is here: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Larry And I don't even know what it was I haven't been paying attention to. But I will definitely go to the site and get the com. Thanks for the URL. Robert Ep 15970 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 11:11pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana sutta, small parts --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, you haven't been paying attention. The whole thing is here: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Larry Hi, Larry. Well that was easy. I just cut and pasted the whole thing into an Appleworks document. Thanks. Robert Ep. 15971 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 0:42am Subject: Sunday afternoon therapy by the pool Dear All, It’s my habit to take a bundle of posts to the outdoor swimming pool at my health club on a Sunday afternoon and catch up with my reading whilst having a few cups of Japanese tea and a foot massage;-) It’s also a time for quiet reflection and usually there are one or two quotes from suttas or from a post that someone has written which help me ‘come to my senses’ with regard to any perceived lingering ‘issues’ from the week. A couple of days ago, a friend forwarded a copy of a letter which mentioned many inaccuracies concerning Jon, myself and others. I had been deliberating quite a bit about whether it was better to keep quiet or to say something and in which case ‘what’ and ‘to whom’ and so on. In other words, lots of thinking and lots of stories and lots of forgetting about realities. I had found it helpful in the first place to reflect on Ven Sangamaji’s example when the baby was put in his lap. To quote from my earlier post (hope it’s OK netiquette-wise): “We’ve been reading details of the Perfections. Sangamaji’s example reminds me that the last perfection given is that of equanimity. Equanimity ‘purifies loving-kindness’. It has the ‘characteristic of promoting the aspect of neutrality; its function is to see things impartially; its manifestation is the subsiding of attraction and repulsion: reflection upon the fact that all beings inherit the results of their own kamma is its proximate cause.’ ( from Cariyapitaka commentary). What would have seemed to the family to be a cold, heartless response was in fact a state of the highest purity.” When he knew he couldn’t help or change any idea, he just kept quiet. Of course we cannot --and should not try to -- imitate his example. Sometimes it is hard to keep quiet, but if it is with metta and uppekkha, it’s never wrong. I also found the recent reminders of metta on DSG very helpul. We may have an idea of ‘doing something’ as referring to an action of some kind. Rob M reminded me that the cultivation of wholesome states such as metta can be said to be ‘doing’, as long as there is no idea of a self taking steps or performing a particular ritual. What made the greatest impact this afternoon, however, was the recent extract from ‘The Perfections’ (Ch5, Wisdom, no 13). It starts with some helpful reminders about death: “When we hear about a person’s death, it can remind us of the truth and to reflect upon ourselves. The person who died may have been full of attachment, he may have liked paintings, music, or other beautiful objects that were enticing. We should reflect upon our own cittas, and consider whether we are like the person who died. We can be reminded of momentary death, of the shortness of each moment of citta that arises and falls away immediately. If we have a great deal of attachment, if we cling to possessions, we should remember that in reality when something appears through the eyes, attachment and delight arise just at the moment of seeing; when a beautiful sound appears through the ears, attachment arises just at the moment of hearing that sound. When a delicious odour appears it conditions attachment only for an extremely short moment, when that odour is smelt. It is the same with flavour and tangible object. We can see in our daily life that even though rúpa which arises falls away very rapidly, there is still attachment to that rúpa which lasts for such a short moment. There is ignorance and attachment so long as paññå is not being developed.” ***** We repeat : “We should know that in reality there is no person”, and then we forget time and again. Death may come any time and whenever we are with people or speaking to people or even thinking of peope, there is the opportunity to be ‘humble and gentle’ with ‘kindness and compassion.’ When we jump to the defence of ourselves or others (as I was inclined to do), where is the humility and gentleness? At the end of the extract, listening and understanding of the Dhamma are stressed: “Understanding conditions sati to be aware of the characteristics of the dhammas at this moment, with perseverance.” As we’ve discussed, sometimes we may feel disheartened or lacking in courage through ignorance and other kilesa. When there is sati and viriya, there is perseverance. Finally, I also appreciated the excerpt from ‘Survey’ by K.Sujin which Christine quoted. This is the last paragraph from it again: "At death a person parts with everthing in this life, it is all over. There is nothing left, not even remembrance. When a person is born into this life he does not remember who he was, where he lived and what he did in his former life. His existence as a particular person in a former life has come to an end. Even so in this life, everything comes to an end. A person performs kusala kamma and akusala kamma, he may have conceit about his race, family, possessions, honour and fame, all this comes to an end. There will be no ties left with all the things in this life. All that we find so important in this life, all that we are holding on to and take for self, will come to an end. If people realize the true characteristics of paramattha dhammas that arise because of their own conditions, they will eliminate the inclination to take them for beings, people, self." ***** Thank you so much to those who provided the right reminders at the right time for me. Writing this post has been very therapeutic;-) Sarah ====== 15972 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Survey of Paramattha Dhammas Dear Rob K, --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > Dear group. > I uploaded a pdf file of Sujin Boriharnwanakets "Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas" . This book has been popular in Thailand for many years in > the original Thai and Nina Van Gorkoms translation is now ready for > publication. I will be arranging the printing while in Thailand and I > put this edition here so that Nina can read it - her apple computer > can:t properly read my windows version. Mike Nease did the formatting > of the book. .... Thank's for keeping us informed. Your comment prompted me to make a quick call to Mike N. He asked me particularly to send his best regards to everyone here. He's still very busy with several jobs 'making ends meet' and still doesn't have a computer (having had to sell his old one on return to the States), so only very occasionally gets to use one in the local library. He sounds well and cheery nonetheless and I mentioned that his formatting work has been much appreciated. Kom also had a longer chat with some dhamma discussion recently. We both managed to wake him up;-( Sarah ====== 15973 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana sutta, small parts Hi Chris, Larry & Rob Ep, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, Nina, Larry and all, > > It's 440k and 147pp. - perhaps a bit difficult for some to download > as a whole. ..... Not to mention the strain on the limited archive space (and our nerves) if it had been downloaded as a post.... (Note: yahoo have now given all lists a finite limit, so though we hope in the future we'll be able to buy extra space as and when required, meanwhile we'll be even meaner about trimming and so on.......) Maybe those who have the capability can download from > ATI, and the rest can await the small bits. I think having a > current 'small bit' posted keeps us all on the same page, so to > speak. :) .... ....well, some of us will still be running behind, never quite catching up (I keep meaning to say something about the intros for a start), and I'm also voting for the 'small bit' side. > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Dear Rob Ep, you haven't been paying attention. The whole thing is > here: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html ..... Larry, we might as well accept it - there are going to be lots of Rob Eps who don't pay attention or read back to front or upside down or start in th middle. Perhaps it would therefore be a good idea to post the link at the beginning or end of each segment or 'small bit'. Sarah ===== 15974 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] The purpose of samatha / Rob Ep Howard My apologies for not seeing your request in time. Thanks for the references. Here is a more complete reference to the 2 threads we had going at that time: 14360 (H), 14382 (J) 14135 (J) 14140 (H), 14295 (J), 14296 (H), 14515 (J) Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Jon - > > In a message dated 9/25/02 10:36:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > upasaka@a... > writes: > > > > I can't seem to locate my original post (and the our > > ensuing posts) on that. Could you direct me to them? > > > ============================= > Never mind about giving me references for the "spiral" posts. I > have > found messages 14360 and 14515. Thanks anyway. > > With metta, > Howard 15975 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation and Satipatthana / Rob Ep Rob Ep --- epsteinrob wrote: > Hi Jon, ... <<1/ To me it [the Anapanasati Sutta] sounds like 'mindfulness meditation'. In other words, there is an attempt at each stage to focus mindful or understanding awareness towards the object of discernment. So it may not sound like some forms of meditation, but it does sound like mindfulness practice to me.>> Hmm, could you perhaps elaborate on what you are saying here, Rob. There is no doubt that the sutta is focussed on mindfulness of breathing. But where exactly in the sutta is the 'formal meditation practice' aspect, as you see it. <<2/ There is one basic object of the mindfulness, the breath, and this to me makes it an organized practice, or meditation practice. One imagines, at least I do, that to focus on these attributes of the breathing with mindfulness, one would have to be sitting and concentrating. It does not sound like a 'general' practice, to be undertaken while going through normal activities.>> There seem to be a number of assumptions involved here, such as: - Because the sutta deals with a single factor/dhamma, it is describing a meditation practice on that factor. - Because the activities described are not 'normal activities' for us, the sutta is not about normal activities for those to whom it was directed. Of course, much depends on how you define 'meditation practice', but I really question whether if it helps to characterise a sutta by a term that means many different thing to different people. <<3/ The attributes of the four foundations of mindfulness and other objects discussed in the Sutta are presented in an organized, graded fashion. It seems to me that this progression would represent a course of progress that one would move through in working with this 'set' over a period of time, in other words, a number of sessions. This also seems to me to be a meditatitve practice, and a structured progression, rather than something to be applied in a more happenstance way.>> Yes, there is indeed a carefully graded progression to the sutta. But then, almost everything the Buddha taught was a graded (and gradual) progression towards nibbana. I believe this gradual aspect is alluded to in the term 'ehipassiko' given in the recollection on the dhamma. Any mental quality properly developed develops by stages. It is part of the knowledge of a Buddha to be able to identify and describe these stages. However, this doesn't mean that the development of those qualities is a matter of formal practice, as I see it. Jon 15976 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry (and Christine) - ... << I'm coming to the view that our meditative practice needs to be a multi-pronged one, involving concentration (as deep as possible), sharp mindfulness (as sharp and sustained as possible), clear comprehension (as clear as possible), and an energetic investigation of all that arises, both pa~n~natti and paramattha dhammas, by means of both "direct observation" as well as by "mulling over", contemplating, and drawing inferences. I do think that thinking can be a tool which, when purified by other factors, and in combination with other tools, can help lead one to the well of wisdom.>> When I read this I very much liked the fact that you obviously appreciate the value of mulling over, contemplating etc what has been heard and experienced as an integral (perhaps even necessary?) part of the development of insight, i.e., as more than just something that is done only by those who don't know anything about 'real' practice!! Of course, this presupposes that one has come into contact with the dhamma in the first place and sees the value in it and in considering it further (I think those of us who are fortunate in this regard in this lifetime are sometimes inclined to take this somewhat for granted). Which leads me to the observation that if we add this last-mentioned factor in to your description above and reverse the order in which you give it, we get-- hearing the dhamma "mulling over", contemplating, and drawing inferences "direct observation" of all that arises clear comprehension sharp mindfulness concentration This is remarkably similar, apart from the position of concentration in the order of things, to the factors often mentioned given by the Buddha himself as being necessary for the development of insight (I have pasted 2 examples of such references below). I'm impressed that you should have come up with this on your own, Howard! Jon MN 70 / Kii.taagiri Sutta (At Kii.taagiri) (Trans: Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha) 22. "Bhikkhus, I do not say that final knowledge is achieved all at once. On the contrary, final knowledge is achieved by gradual training, by gradual practice, by gradual progress. 23. "And how does there come to be gradual training, gradual practice, gradual progress? Here one who has faith [in a teacher] visits him; when he visits him, he pays respect to him; when he pays respect to him, he gives ear; one who gives ear hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma he memorises it; he examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up in him; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom [Comy: With the mental body he realises Nibbana, the ultimate truth, and he penetrates it with the wisdom pertaining to the supramundane path]. A IV, 246 / The Growth of Wisdom (Trans: Numerical Discourses of the Buddha) These four things, O monks, are conducive to the growth of wisdom. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the good Dhamma, proper attention and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things are conducive to the growth of wisdom. 15977 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Larry In you post below you ask: <> This is an extremely complex matter, but in deference to your preferred style I'll try to give an answer in as short a space as possible ;-)). Mindfulness/awareness refers to moments of consciousness that directly experience a dhamma. The direct experience of a dhamma, is the basis for the panna (wisdom, insight) that sees the dhamma as it truly is, that sees the characteristics of the dhamma. It is by seeing dhammas as they truly are that attachment to them and to existence is eventually eradicated. In the context of 'mindfulness of breathing', this means mindfulness of one of the dhammas that we take for breathing, and the development of insight that arises based on that mindfulness. That insight is, of course, vipassana. However, 'mindfulness of breathing' can also refer to breath as an object of samatha development, and so it can also mean jhana based on breath as object. Now, jhana in and of itself is not something that leads to insight/enlightenment, nor is it even something that makes insight easier or more likely to occur. Yes, it is kusala accompanied by panna, but the panna is not the panna that sees the true nature of dhammas. While vipassana and samatha both involve the development of panna, it is panna of different levels and they lead to different goals. The 'point' of the sutta on mindfulness of in and out breathing is to illustrate how jhana with breath as object can be a basis for insight. In other words, how those who are advanced in the development of *both* samatha and vipassana can attain to enlightenment that is based on jhana. This is my understanding of the oft-repeated passage in the sutta that: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination." Note the wording here, "brings the four frames of reference [four arousings of mindfulness] to their culmination". To *bring something to its culmination* is not the same as developing it from scratch, and I see the emphasis in the sutta as being very much on describing the final stages of development for those ready to achieve enlightenment in that very lifetime. Hence the description of the (hypothetical) monk who has already developed samatha (and satipatthana) to a high degree. I hope this is not too confusing. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > > Your program looks excellent. I was wondering what exactly is the point > of mindfulness of in and out breathing. Is it to develop detachment to > the body, let go of the desire to breathe, or just let go of desires to > do something more entertaining or 'important?' For me it's mostly the > latter coupled with a letting go of attachment to thinking brought on by > the contrast between the nowness of rupa sensation and the conceptuality > of thinking (vitakka/vicara). The problem is, I don't see anything like > any of this in the suttas. What I see in the suttas is contentment with > a rather simple understanding: now I breathe in, now I breathe out. > There is evolution beyond that but that evolution looks like > skillfulness rather than insight that effects letting go of desires. > What do you, or anyone else, see as the 'point' of mindfulness of in and > out breathing, both in practice and according to the suttas? > > Larry 15978 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Dear Jim, Many thanks for this useful research. I find it very interesting and as I mentioned, I was confused when I heard K.Sujin refer to parts in the past that I couldn't find. I think I'll pass a few of your comments like these ones to B.Bodhi when we see him as he (or rather the BPS) may wish to consider having the extra passages included or added at the end separately in future. I'll also pass on any other comments if it seems appropriate, especially as it's such a well-read translation and booklet. Sarah ====== --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear group, > > Yesterday, I wrote: > << One problem with the Burmese version is that it is an enlarged > version like the one found at DN 22 where the four nobles truths are > explained in greater detail. This surprised me as I thought the > shorter version was pretty much the standard for MN. >> > > I have since done some further comparing of five different versions of > the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta (MN 10) and what I have found is that out of > the five, three of them are of the shorter version as follows: 15979 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Step to Improving Understanding of "Free Will" Dear Rob M, As you say, knowing about functions of cittas in processes helps to see their uncontrolibility. They succeed one another according to a regular order, nyama. As to controller of impusion, javana, we should say that the manodvaravajjana citta together with the kusala cittas are wise attention. I would put it thus: if there is wise attention, the manodvaravajjana citta is followed by kusala cittas... and the opposite. The yoniso does not stop when the javana cittas arise. op 28-09-2002 00:11 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Hi All, > > Last night, I read an intesting passage in Visuddhimagga XIV > (Description of the Aggregates) para 152 (Attention / Manasikara): > > It is the maker of what is to be made, it is the maker in the mind > (manamhi karo), thus it is attention (bringing-to-mind - manasi- > kara). It makes the mind different from the previous [life > continuum] mind, thus it is attention. It has three ways of doing > this: as the controller of the object, as the controller of the > cognitive series, and as the controller of impulsions. Herein, the > controller of the object is the maker in the mind, thus it is > attention. That has the characterisitic of conducting (sarana). Its > function is to yoke associated states to the object. It is > manifested as confrontation with an object. Its proximate cause is > an object. It should be regarded as the conductor (sarathi) of > associated states by controlling the object, itself being included > in the formations aggregate. Controller of the cognitive series is a > term for five door adverting. Controller of impulsions is a term for > mind door adverting. These last two are not included here. > > My interpretation of this is as follows: > Whereas in the adverting stage of the sense door process, attention > (manasikara) controlled the mind to advert to the new object, in the > determining citta, attention (manasikara) controls the javana. This > control is strengthened through conviction, which is the > characteristic of resolution (adhimokkha). If wise attention (yoniso > manasikara) is applied, the object is "seen as it truly is" (with > mindfulness) and the following javana cittas will be kusala. If > unwise attention (ayoniso manasikara) is applied, there is no > mindfulness and the following javana cittas will be akusala (lobha- > mula, dosa-mula or moha-mula). > > For me, this is a major step away from the wrong view of a self who > can intervene in the thought process to exercise "free will" to > determine the javana path to be taken. I understanding that it is > the form of attention (wise or unwise) that determines the direction > (akusala vs. kusala) in the thought process. Form of attention is > conditioned by accumulations, but is it fixed (i.e. determinism)? If > not, what other factors (other than a self) are at play here? > > I feel that I am one step closer, but not yet 100% clear, > > Thanks, > Rob M :-) 15980 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: preparation for sati? op 27-09-2002 23:02 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: >> N: When mindful, it can be very natural, also seeing a glass, > because you >> know that it is a nama which thinks. > === > >R: Do I understand that it is okay to "name" when one is mindful, as > long as one understands that this is "naming" (i.e. not taking the > glass as a reality)? N: We do not need to ask whether something is OK when mindful: anything that arises is conditioned, also naming. >R: If so, where does it stop? I read somewhere about the progressive > processes of the mind door process after a sense door process had > completed. It gave (just as an example, not as a fixed sequence) the > following: > 1. Sense door process: reproduce the image of an object at sense door > 2. Mind door process: construct whole picture > 3. Mind door process: percieve colour > 4. Mind door process: conceptualize shape > 5. Mind door process: designate as "flower" > 6. Mind door process: judge as "rose" > 7. Mind door process: classify as "red rose" > 8. Mind door process: attachment to "red rose" > > In this example, the first three processes generated "weak kamma", > the next four processes generated "strong kamma" and the final > process generated "very strong kamma". N: In a sense-door process there is not an image of an object, just colour, sound, etc. Akusala citta can arise in any process; akusala citta is accompanied by akusala cetana, but not every akusala citta is one of the ten kamma pathas performed through body, speech or mind. You will see discussions about this in the archives, also Rob K gave explanations. If you just like a colour or think with ignorance about a rose, that is not akusala kamma. Moreover, who knows the intensities of akusala or akusala kamma at each moment? We should not try to find out, these things are the domain of Buddhas. R: (snip) ... while > being mindful, can we have attachment to the red rose, as long as we > know that this is attachment? Somehow, this doesn't seem right > (isn't it equivalent to saying that it's okay to have akusala > cittas, as long as they are followed by mindfulness of that > attachement). In other words, given the somewhat arbitrary listing > above, at what process number (1-8) would a "mindful" person stop? N: Akusala cittas arise anyway, and they can be object of mindfulness. We do not say that they are O.K. but no need to feel guilty, taht is even more akusala. We cannot say that a person who is mindful will stop or not stop, it depends on his accumulated conditions. R: I guess my thinking here is that in order to function effectively, > one would need to have more than the first process in the arbitrary > list of eight above. I guess that if a mindful person were allowed > to perform the first seven of the eight processes listed above, then > they would be able to function in daily life without generating very > strong kamma. N: See above. We should not make our life so complicated, wondering about the strength of kamma, whether it is kamma or of what intensity at a particular moment. But there is no question of being allowed to do something or not. As you say, cittas are so fast, we do not have time to ask ourselves, may I or may I not. R: Again, I think of mindfulness as a "perspective", rather than as > a "skill". It is not a prerequisite to meditate to gain a > perspective of mindfulness, however I am hoping that reflecting on > meditation experiences will help one gain a mindfulness perspective. N: Reflecting on the scriptures is certainly a helpful condition, but if we think, I should, there may be an element of wish, expectation or desire. R: - I am inspired by the Dhamma. > - I have an supportive wife. > - My job gives me lots of time in airplanes and hotel rooms. > N: Anumodana. I have a supportive husband, he helps me in the house, shopping also for my father, so that I have more time for writing. > R: I am starting to understand that with the millions of cittas every > microsecond, there is "lots of time" for mindfulness in daily life. N: You make here a very good remark for all of us, not to have excuses, thinking, not now, not in this situation.. With appreciation, Nina. 15981 From: Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] The purpose of samatha / Rob Ep Thanks, Jon! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/29/02 5:34:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > My apologies for not seeing your request in time. Thanks for the > references. Here is a more complete reference to the 2 threads we had > going at that time: > > 14360 (H), 14382 (J) > 14135 (J) 14140 (H), 14295 (J), 14296 (H), 14515 (J) > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15982 From: Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/29/02 6:29:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > << I'm coming to the view that our meditative practice needs to be a > multi-pronged one, involving concentration (as deep as possible), sharp > mindfulness (as sharp and sustained as possible), clear comprehension (as > clear as possible), and an energetic investigation of all that arises, > both pa~n~natti and paramattha dhammas, by means of both "direct > observation" as well as by "mulling over", contemplating, and drawing > inferences. I do think that thinking can be a tool which, when purified by > other factors, and in combination with other tools, can help lead one to > the well of wisdom.>> > > When I read this I very much liked the fact that you obviously appreciate > the value of mulling over, contemplating etc what has been heard and > experienced as an integral (perhaps even necessary?) part of the > development of insight, i.e., as more than just something that is done > only by those who don't know anything about 'real' practice!! > > Of course, this presupposes that one has come into contact with the dhamma > in the first place and sees the value in it and in considering it further > (I think those of us who are fortunate in this regard in this lifetime are > sometimes inclined to take this somewhat for granted). > > ========================= Yes, I agree. Hearing the Dhamma is the starting point, and it continues to be a sure guide throughout. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 15983 From: Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana sutta, small parts Dear Sarah and Rob Ep, please see messages with subject title Way 1, Way 2, Way 3, and Way 4. Please notice at the top of the page the link to ATI's "The Way of Mindfulness". This is what we are studying. I am beginning at the beginning. Larry 15984 From: Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Jon, do you see any difference between the knowledge mentioned in the Satipatthana Sutta and the insight (vipassana) that is usually mentioned as arising after jhana? Larry 15985 From: Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Dear group, This section of the introduction is an exposition of several qualities of mindfulness, see outline below. Is everyone in agreement on these? What are the qualities of sati in citta process? Is there a difference between the sati in citta process and satipatthana? Is there sati not included in satipatthana? Larry -------------------- Outline: sati as memory: treassurer who reminds the king of his possessions day and night. Possessions = sila, samadhi, panna + essentials of holy living + resolve to realize all this. sati as care & protection of mind selecive aspect: discriminates between kusala & akusala integrative aspect: the organizing activity necessary for bringing about kusala cittas. Sees all lacks and deficiencies. Integrative aspect is considered the highest wisdom of mindfulness = sammasati. strong mindfulness: ignores unnecessary by adhering to the center of business and extends its view to important periferal conditions. Balance between width and depth of vision. as controling faculty (indriya): overcomes mental conflict, unclarity, incapacity to judge aright, indefiniteness due to mental unquiet. Makes for absence of confusion, lucidity, sound judgement, definiteness of outlook. as spiritual power (bala): mindfulness accompanied by sustained energy. The earnestness which destroys negligence. 15986 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:40am Subject: therapeutic litterature Dear Sarah, what you said about problems concerning the relation with others sounds so familiar. It is easy to have aversion and be carried away by stories. Should one speak or not? It usually works out best not to say anything. Problems get solved at a time we do not expect this. I like your post and I am so happy A. Sujin's words helped you. Here is more, from the Ch on patience I am doing now. So many good advices: We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² (Miscellaneous Sayings): Again, only the man of wisdom can patiently tolerate the wrongs of others, not the dull-witted man. In the man lacking wisdom, the wrongs of others only provoke impatience; but for the wise, they call his patience into play and make it grow even stronger. How will we live from now on? If we have right understanding, we can patiently tolerate the wrongs of someone else, but if we lack understanding, impatience will increase. We read further: Only the man of wisdom is skilful in providing for the welfare of all beings, without discriminating between dear people, neutrals, and enemies. All the teachings are beneficial. We can see that the Buddha helped his followers in explaining the Dhamma and exhorting them time and again to consider the benefit of kusala dhammas. For example, when he said, ³Only the man of wisdom is skilful in providing for the welfare of all beings, without discriminating between dear people, neutrals, and enemies.² We should not be on the side of our own group of friends, we should be impartial and skilful in providing for the welfare of all beings. Then someone is really skilful, he has patience so that he is intent on what is beneficial. When he is impatient he will not acquire any benefit and this is to the disadvantage of himself. We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct², no. 1, the Conduct of Akitti: Síla has been called ³tapa², ascetism or austerity, because it burns the impurity arising from akusala. Because of the splendour and power of the perfection of patience and the perfection of viriya, also these perfections have been called tapa, ascetism, because they burn the impurity of craving and laziness. The Bodhisatta developed those perfections to the highest degree when he was this person. It should be said that he developed them by the power of the perfection of patience (khanti påramittånubhåvena), because the restraint by patience leads to what is supreme, as the Exalted One said: ³patience is the highest ascetism² (khanti paramam tapo). The the first words of the Exhortation to the Patimokkha are, ³Patience is the hishest ascetism². If patience and endurance are lacking, the perfections cannot lead to the realization of the four noble Truths. I especially like what is said on impartiality, not to be on the side of "our dear friends". They all are dear friends, also people with contrarious behaviour. All the best, Nina. 15987 From: Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Dear group, Some more questions. If (?) we can say sati is recognition, then when I recognize someone in the street is that sati? Is it satipatthana? If I mistakenly recognize Jack as Jim, is that sati? If I mistakenly recognize vedana as rupa is that sati? Is truth a cetasika? Larry 15988 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:35pm Subject: True friends and 'right speech' was Re: Sunday afternoon therapy by the pool Hi Sarah, You say: "A couple of days ago, a friend forwarded a copy of a letter which mentioned many inaccuracies concerning Jon, myself and others. I had been deliberating quite a bit about whether it was better to keep quiet or to say something and in which case `what' and `to whom' and so on. In other words, lots of thinking and lots of stories and lots of forgetting about realities." Question: What was the purpose of passing on the letter? Wasn't this also a wrong action - 'divisive tale bearing', or did they inform the letter writer and ask permission? Bet they didn't. Question: One assumes that, as their concern was so great, they would have approached the letter writer and discussed what they saw as inaccurate statements. Bet they didn't. And if the letter was already public (i.e. on a List), and if they really thought others believed it, how simple to refute it publicly and end any possible speculation by others. Bet they didn't again. Question: Who caused the hurt? Answer: The one who gave you the letter, otherwise you wouldn't have known anything to be hurt over. Question: Who gets the consequences? Answer: Everyone except the one who passed on the letter, even the letter writer who won't know 'who' passed it on, so will lose trust in a number of people. (assuming they read this List, and know about it.) It took me a while to figure out in life that some people can do a lot of damage by seeming to act from 'pure' motives, or for the 'good' of the other. Just a thought: Why be unhappy about something if it can be remedied? And what is the use of being unhappy about something if it cannot be remedied? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear All, > > It's my habit to take a bundle of posts to the outdoor swimming pool 15989 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:43pm Subject: October Update to Class Notes now on-line Hi All, I had three review classes (no new notes) in September, so there was only one class with new material ("Inside the Thought Process"). I have uploaded a new file with just the October update (small file, easy to download). Next month, I will integrate the two and the notes from October classes. Comments and criticisms are welcomed :-) I am now starting on Rupas. I am summarizing Nina's, "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena". Thanks, Rob M :-) 15990 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 3:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Larry, I think that sati (mindfulness) is "seeing things as they truly are". In other words, as paramattha dhammas. In its simplest form, when you see a "person", mindfulness would mean noting a visible object. I think that recognition (correct or incorrect) is a function of sanna (perception). As I recall, on one of my very first postings on the DSG, you asked about memory. In "Abhidhamma Studies" by Ven. Nyanaponika Thera, there is an Appendix titled, "The Omission of Memory from the List of Dhammas". It contains an excellent explanation of how memory is a function of sanna. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear group, > > Some more questions. If (?) we can say sati is recognition, then when I > recognize someone in the street is that sati? Is it satipatthana? If I > mistakenly recognize Jack as Jim, is that sati? If I mistakenly > recognize vedana as rupa is that sati? Is truth a cetasika? > > Larry 15991 From: Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Rob M, I don't want to jump the gun too much, but what is the difference between recognizing an out breath and recognizing a person? As you know, sati is heavily involved with memory. Larry --------------------- Rob M: "Hi Larry, I think that sati (mindfulness) is "seeing things as they truly are". In other words, as paramattha dhammas. In its simplest form, when you see a "person", mindfulness would mean noting a visible object. I think that recognition (correct or incorrect) is a function of sanna (perception). As I recall, on one of my very first postings on the DSG, you asked about memory. In "Abhidhamma Studies" by Ven. Nyanaponika Thera, there is an Appendix titled, "The Omission of Memory from the List of Dhammas". It contains an excellent explanation of how memory is a function of sanna. Thanks, Rob M :-)" 15992 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 6:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Soma Thera - missing/untranslated passage Dear Sarah, Thanks for the feedback. I have some further comments to make. In my earlier post I wrote the following: <> My last remark: "This seems to point to a longer version." isn't right as it was based on a wrong assumption that "The rest . . . " referred to a commentary (which I had not checked and still have barely checked as it is quite long) in the Vism that would explain the wording of the additional passage of the long version in MN 10. I later find the same line in the Dighanikaya commentary (re: DN 22). The latter commentary does explain (immediately after the above quoted line from Soma's transl.) the words for the additional passage while the MN commentary does not (as far as I know -- I'm walking on thin ice here eg. it might have been commented on earlier). So at this point I'm far from knowing for sure about which version is the correct one for MN 10. There are pros and cons on both sides and we may never know for sure which one is correct. On the one hand two different versions suggest the Buddha gave two similar discourses in the same vicinity but on the other hand it is unusual to have two large identical discourses in the Suttantapitaka. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, > > Many thanks for this useful research. I find it very interesting and as I mentioned, I was confused when I heard K.Sujin refer to parts in the past that I couldn't find. > > I think I'll pass a few of your comments like these ones to B.Bodhi when > we see him as he (or rather the BPS) may wish to consider having the extra > passages included or added at the end separately in future. I'll also > pass on any other comments if it seems appropriate, especially as it's > such a well-read translation and booklet. > > Sarah > ====== 15993 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 6:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Larry, I want to go on record here as supporting the moderators' recent stand on focusing on Theravada teachings. My reasoning is that getting a firm grasp on Theravada is tough enough; mixing Theravada and Mahayana without clearly distinguishing them does not help understanding of either. So how does this relate to your posting? Theravada Abhidhamma holds that sati is a kusala cetasika (it does not appear in akusala cittas) whereas Mahayana Abhidhamma holds that sati is an ethically neutral cetasika. Theravada Abhidhamma holds that sati does not play a special role in memory (that is reserved for sanna) whereas (I believe) Mahayana Abhidhamma links sati and memory. "Recognizing a person" is an incredibly complex process which involves a lot of very personal experiences. For example, imagine that you had met my wife socially. When you "recognize" her, the thoughts you have would be dramatically different from the thoughts that I would have when I "recognize" her. Same visible object as a base, but dramatically different papanca (mental proliferations). Our perceived realities would be completely different. "Recognizing an out breath" is also a concept, however there will be very little difference between your perception of your out breath and my perception of my out breath (i.e. very little papanca). The other nice thing about out breaths is that it is easy to see the underlying characteristics of impermanence and anatta (can't really control the breath). You don't get this "lesson in characteristics or reality" when you recognize a person. Recognizing a person may even tend to reinforce wrong view. Larry, I found the article mentioned below by Ven. Nyanaponika Thera to be extrememly useful in helping my understanding of memory. If you do not have the book, I would be willing to fax the few pages of this article to you. If you are interested, please respond off-line with your fax number. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > I don't want to jump the gun too much, but what is the difference > between recognizing an out breath and recognizing a person? > > As you know, sati is heavily involved with memory. > > Larry > --------------------- > Rob M: "Hi Larry, > I think that sati (mindfulness) is "seeing things as they truly are". In > other words, as paramattha dhammas. In its simplest form, when you see a > "person", mindfulness would mean noting a visible object. > I think that recognition (correct or incorrect) is a function of sanna > (perception). As I recall, on one of my very first postings on the DSG, > you asked about memory. In "Abhidhamma Studies" by Ven. Nyanaponika > Thera, there is an Appendix titled, "The Omission of Memory from the > List of Dhammas". It contains an excellent explanation of how memory is > a function of sanna. > Thanks, > Rob M :-)" 15994 From: Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Rob, I agree there would be a difference in papanca between a person and a breath. I'm hoping the pali group will come up with something on similarities between pali and sanskrit words for mindfulness. This would not necessarily involve mahayana but it would have to compare different tipitakas, I guess. My take on the connection between sati and memory comes most immediately from Soma Thera's words: "Mindfulness as memory is indicated by such terms as annussati = calling to mind; patissati = remembrance; dharanata = bearing in mind; saranata = recollection" Also you might look up sati in the PTS dictionary: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Cognizing reality and recognizing reality mean pretty much the same thing to me. Btw, do you have a textual reference for sati as seeing things as they are? What I'm trying to get at is a common sati that would arise in anyone, not just a buddhist with a strong background in abhidhamma. Larry 15995 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Larry, Ven. Nyanaponika Thera mentions in his article that the term "sati" is derived from the Sanskrit "smrti" which has a meaning of "memory". He then makes the point that in Theravada usage, sati has lost the connection to memory. Given than etymology, I am not surprised that combination words such as annussati and patissati retain the "memory" connection. I am sure that reviewing Ven. Nyanaponika Thera's article would address many of your questions (and perhaps raise new ones!). Can I fax it to you? I understand "cognizing" to mean awareness (no link to "memory"). Adding the prefix, "re-" to "cognizing" implies awareness a second time (the "second time" is the link to "memory"). I appreciate your question for the text reference of "sati" meaning "seeing things as they are are". Let me look it up tonight; I am sure that this will be a journey of discovery and I will learn new things. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I agree there would be a difference in papanca between a person and a > breath. I'm hoping the pali group will come up with something on > similarities between pali and sanskrit words for mindfulness. This would > not necessarily involve mahayana but it would have to compare different > tipitakas, I guess. My take on the connection between sati and memory > comes most immediately from Soma Thera's words: > > "Mindfulness as memory is indicated by such terms as annussati = calling > to mind; patissati = remembrance; dharanata = bearing in mind; saranata > = recollection" > > Also you might look up sati in the PTS dictionary: > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > Cognizing reality and recognizing reality mean pretty much the same > thing to me. Btw, do you have a textual reference for sati as seeing > things as they are? > > What I'm trying to get at is a common sati that would arise in anyone, > not just a buddhist with a strong background in abhidhamma. > > Larry 15996 From: Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Rob, I've read Nyanaponika's article. Maybe we will have to wait for the pali group to settle the question. Soma Thera definitely includes memory as a meaning of sati but he uses it in a specialized sense applicable only to buddhist monks and nuns. Larry 15997 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 10:54pm Subject: Re: for the mind to be alive and interested within the mass of humanity --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Antony, > > I have noticed this post on a couple of lists - which is a fair > indication that it is important to you. You may have noticed the > differing quantity and style of the replies you received. Perhaps > you may care to read some posts on a rather stimulating discussion > from last November on DSG. You may be surprised at the understanding > some people have of what the Scriptures actually say of 'what metta > is' and 'to whom it should be pervaded'. I was. If you have time to > read the posts, I am sure there would be interest from others in a > discussion from any perspective. > The posts mentioned above are: 9276, 9281, 9309, 9318, 9322, 9342, > 9347, 9349, 9360, 9362, 9367, 9402, 9404, 9461. > > 15998 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:02pm Subject: Re: for the mind to be alive and interested within the mass of humanity Sorry everyone, accidentally pressing the carriage return can send a message prematurely. Here's what I meant to send: Hi Anthony and Christine, Christine wrote: ----------- > You may be surprised at the understanding some people have of what the Scriptures actually say of 'what metta is' and 'to whom it should be pervaded'. I was. > ------------ So was I Christine, but it confirmed something we Aussies were taught at primary school: "Life is mainly froth and bubble, Two things stand like stone; Kindness in an other's trouble, Courage in your own." (Adam Lindsay Gordon) We are all suffering but we apply a different therapy to other people's suffering than we apply to our own. We don't tell someone who is grieving, "there is grief here but there is no self who grieves;" the perception of insensitivity would only add to their suffering. It makes me think of that sutta (sorry, no ref.), in which the Buddha told an inconsolable bereaved mother to find a household that had not known bereavement and bring back a pinch of mustard seed. I suppose the woman thought at first, that she was being offered a medication of some sort. Had the Buddha simply said, "dukkha is everywhere," the beauty of that truth would have been lost on her. Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Antony, > > I have noticed this post on a couple of lists - which is a fair > indication that it is important to you. You may have noticed the > differing quantity and style of the replies you received. Perhaps > you may care to read some posts on a rather stimulating discussion > from last November on DSG. You may be surprised at the understanding > some people have of what the Scriptures actually say of 'what metta > is' and 'to whom it should be pervaded'. I was. If you have time to > read the posts, I am sure there would be interest from others in a > discussion from any perspective. > The posts mentioned above are: 9276, 9281, 9309, 9318, 9322, 9342, > 9347, 9349, 9360, 9362, 9367, 9402, 9404, 9461. > > 15999 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] for the mind to be alive and interested within the mass of humanity Dear Antony, Howard & All. Howard, thankyou for including the Karaniya Metta Sutta and Antony, thankyou for the following helpful comments: > I've noticed that my metta practice is limited and my mind doesn't > really relate to the mass of humanity (I just looked at the prayer > circle directory at BeliefNet.com - it is huge!). > > I understand that I can only relate in speech and actions with a few > people but the mind is very fast and I think there is a possibility > of cultivating metta creatively to many beings in different > categories. ***** I think these are very wise and honest comments. If we have the idea that metta can be universal from the start, we’re likely to be seriously misled, I think. This is why I raised the questions in my earlier post. I don’t have a copy of the commentary to the karaniya metta sutta (is there an English one available anyone?), but Kom recently wrote some helpful comments on it (reading the Thai version) to Rob M in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11202.html It is well worth reading the comments from the commentaries carefully, especially with regard to when there can be universal metta (i.e in Jhana), to whom the sutta was told (those who had developed high levels of kusala states) and so on. I agree with your suggestion that metta can be developed a little at a time ‘in speech and actions with a few people’ when there is the opportunity. The most important point, as I understand, is to clearly know the characteristic of metta when it arises and to know the distinction between metta and its near enemy, attachment. When we feel so caring towards the baby or full of love for the universe at large, how can we be sure it is metta? Is there clinging now to being the one with lots of metta? Is there an idea of self that has metta? As Kom wrote: “The section on planning the response in Metta in daily life wouldn't work too well if one bakes the cookies with the thoughts that I am doing this out of my metta, or because I need to show the worlds that I am a person with metta. Unless one knows oneself (with sati and wisdom), then it is really hard to respond to situations with kusala intentions. To seriously develop kusala dhammas, panna must lead first. Otherwise, we may be just following rules and rituals that doesn't bring the results (gasp! more lobha!) that we would like...” ***** In an earlier post on metta, Nina quoted from K.Sujin’s book “Metta” as saying: KS: Nina continues: “Thus, sincerity, truthfulness is very necessary for the development of kusala. Otherwise we make ourselves believe that we have kusala for a long time, whereas in reality, many akusala cittas arise in between. A. Sujin explains: Metta conditions other good qualities: it conditions generosity, kind speech, humbleness. It conditions true courtesy, politeness which comes from the heart. We can develop kusala without being concerned about it whether one is liked by others or not. We can develop metta towards others, even when we do not receive any kindness from them. KS KS What would the world be without metta, we have to help each other, we are dependent on each other.” ***** I like the quote: “Metta is the dhamma which is the foundation of the world”. Yesterday, Nina gave us some useful quotes and comments on patience. When there is no patience, there is no metta. When there is attachment, there is restlessness and no energy or patience for wholesome states. We read in the Cariyapitaka com. that “ restlessness due to excessive activity is abandoned through reflective acquiesence in the Dhamma (dhammanijjhaanakkhanti)”. B.Bodhi adds a footnote to this term to say that “the word khanti, ordinarily used to mean patience in the sense of forbearance of the wrongs of others and the endurance of hardships, is sometimes also used to signify the intellectual acceptance of soctrines which are not yet completely clear to the understanding.” ***** From Nina’s post on patience, I appreciated these reminders very much: “We read in the Commentary to the ‘Basket of Conduct’ (Miscellaneous Sayings): Again, only the man of wisdom can patiently tolerate the wrongs of others, not the dull-witted man. In the man lacking wisdom, the wrongs of others only provoke impatience; but for the wise, they call his patience into play and make it grow even stronger. How will we live from now on? If we have right understanding, we can patiently tolerate the wrongs of someone else, but if we lack understanding, impatience will increase. We read further: Only the man of wisdom is skilful in providing for the welfare of all beings, without discriminating between dear people, neutrals, and enemies.” ***** So often we’re ‘dull-witted’. Metta and patience will only grow with wisdom and only by being sincere and honest to know what is conditioned already at this moment, rather than what we think should be conditioned. As we’ve heard stressed, all the perfections and other noble qualities need to develop together. Nina also wrote: “The the first words of the Exhortation to the Patimokkha are, “Patience is the highest ascetism”. If patience and endurance are lacking, the perfections cannot lead to the realization of the four noble Truths. I especially like what is said on impartiality, not to be on the side of "our dear friends". They all are dear friends, also people with contrarious behaviour.” ***** Antony, I’ve appreciated reflecting on the interrelationship between metta, khanti and panna here, even if the post may have possibly strayed from your specific questions. I'll be glad to hear back from you, Howard or anyone on any of the comments. metta and khanti, Sarah =====