16000 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Group Hi Rahula, Welcome to DSG. You certainly have an auspicious name and we’ll be glad to hear anything else about you, such as where you live or how you have developed your interest in dhamma and Pali. --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > > There is a new discussion group (I am the moderator) to discuss the > error of Shakya Aryanatta's translation. > > Many have been misled by SA's translations including some of my > friends. ..... When I first started reading the Pali Canon translations there was a very limited selection - mostly just those published by the PTS and of course no internet. Sometimes I’d come across references to souls and footnotes on Christianity and I’d get somewhat annoyed. What I understand better now is that there is no deliberate attempt to mislead, but any translator will look at the texts and the materials according to his own understanding, even if he is a Pali expert. For example, ‘atta’ or ‘attan’ can refer to the reflexive pronouns, ‘myself’, ‘oneself’ etc or to ‘soul’ or ‘self’. If we say “attaana.m sukkheti piineti”, it should be translated as “he enjoys and pleases himelf”, but grammatically it could be translated (I think) as “he enjoys and pleases the soul”. Feminine nouns have the same ending for several cases, so again, grammatically they can often be translated ‘correctly’ in many ways which lead to quite different and important meanings. Christine raised the question of translations before. Of course it is very helpful if one can read Pali (not me ). Far more important, though, is the development of right understanding which will be able to discern what is right and what isn’t. Given a choice between good Pali and poor understanding and poor Pali and good understanding, I’d opt for the second. There are many variable translations available. Perhaps what is most helpful is to appreciate the good intentions of these efforts and meanwhile help to spread and encourage friends to read the ones that we think are most accurate according to Suttanta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma. Best wishes for your various projects meanwhile, Rahula. Sarah ==== 16001 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > What I'm trying to get at is a common sati that would arise in anyone, > not just a buddhist with a strong background in abhidhamma. .... Just a quick note on this one point - As you suggest, sati is not Buddhist or confined to those with a ‘strong background in abhidhamma’. Sati arises with all kusala (wholesome) cittas and at those moments keeps the mind from akusala (unwholesome states). It is mindful of what is ‘good’. So anytime someone gives or is kind or abstains from killing, there must be sati arising with the wholesome consciousness, regardless of whether anything is known about it. In other religions or philosophies, we’ll learn that giving is good and hating is bad and so on. Studying Buddhism in more detail, we’ll learn more precisely what is good (i.e. moments of consciousness rather than a long act or story) and exactly what is bad. For example, we may not speak out with harsh words and may smile pleasantly, but what about the consciousness with resentment, with attachment, with ignorance? Again, knowing more about these different states is not confined to Buddhism or abhidhamma only. Those who have developed high levels of samatha or jhana have very, very precise knowledge of the difference between moments of kusala and akusala. In this case the sati which arises with all wholesome states must be accompanied by panna (wisdom). However, it is not the panna that knows phenomena as anatta. Only when sati is accompanied by panna which knows realities as namas and rupas, as elements which are anatta, can the sati be referred to as satipatthana. Those that have not heard/read the Teachings in detail cannot know or develop satipatthana. This is because if there is not a clear theoretical understanding initially of what the paramattha dhammas are and what the objects of satipatthana can be, it cannot develop as I understand. It’s not a question of names or labels (one could call oneself a Buddhist, a phenomenologist or anythingelseist), but of truly knowing what the objects of satipatthana are and also understanding that all phenomena, including sati, are merely different mental and physical phenomena arising by conditions. Not sure if this helps or is controversial;-) Sarah ===== 16002 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:13am Subject: Informal Thoughts on Sati and Sa~n~na Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/29/02 11:12:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > My take on the connection between sati and memory > comes most immediately from Soma Thera's words: > > "Mindfulness as memory is indicated by such terms as annussati = calling > to mind; patissati = remembrance; dharanata = bearing in mind; saranata > = recollection" > > ============================ Informally, based just on the usage I've come across in written discussions of meditation, I've always thought of 'sati' as designating the function of remembering to stay with the present moment of experience - of not becoming forgetful and "getting lost" in thought, reverie, or torpor. It seems to me that it is not attention per se, nor, is it, in this usage, general memory per se, but is a remembering or keeping in mind to maintain attention. So, as I think of it, 'sati' as used in the Dhamma doesn't mean memory, per se, but it has a clear memory aspect/flavor to it. Likewise, to me 'sa~n~na', with its meaning of recognition or cognition or perception, also does not mean memory, per se, but certainly has a clear aspect/flavor of memory to it. To recognize or (even wordlessly) identify something surely requires a mental trace of some sort, though not necessarily a memory in the usual sense. (I suspect that the *common* term 'memory', apparently not explicated in Abhidhamma, designates an amalgam of mental operations, and, in the common usage of the term, denotes a type of very large and complex mental process involving long trains of thought and multiple functions.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16003 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Larry There are lots of useful references from relevant texts on the points you mention below, and also on the so-called 'memory' connection you bring up in a later post, in Nina's book 'Cetasikas'. I have pasted below a link to Ch. 6 'Mindfulness (sati). Jon http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas28.html --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear group, > > This section of the introduction is an exposition of several qualities > of mindfulness, see outline below. Is everyone in agreement on these? > What are the qualities of sati in citta process? Is there a difference > between the sati in citta process and satipatthana? Is there sati not > included in satipatthana? > > Larry > -------------------- > Outline: > > sati as memory: treassurer who reminds the king of his possessions day > and night. Possessions = sila, samadhi, panna + essentials of holy > living + resolve to realize all this. > > sati as care & protection of mind > > selecive aspect: discriminates between kusala & akusala > > integrative aspect: the organizing activity necessary for bringing about > kusala cittas. Sees all lacks and deficiencies. Integrative aspect is > considered the highest wisdom of mindfulness = sammasati. > > strong mindfulness: ignores unnecessary by adhering to the center of > business and extends its view to important periferal conditions. Balance > between width and depth of vision. > > as controling faculty (indriya): overcomes mental conflict, unclarity, > incapacity to judge aright, indefiniteness due to mental unquiet. Makes > for absence of confusion, lucidity, sound judgement, definiteness of > outlook. > > as spiritual power (bala): mindfulness accompanied by sustained energy. > The earnestness which destroys negligence. 16004 From: wink_1000 Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 9:01am Subject: not new but here again. Hello all. I used to be here on the list, and then I went away and now I am back again. This time I managed to join the group without first insulting it on other e-mail lists. So I've made progress! :-) Anyway. I'm looking forward to your posts. D.W. 16005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:01am Subject: Perfections by A. Sujin. Ch 6, Energy, no. 1 Perfections by A. Sujin. Ch 6, Energy, no. 1 The Perfection of Energy The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² defines energy, viriya, as follows: Energy has the characteristic of striving; its function is to fortify; its manifestation is infatigability; an occasion for the arousing of energy, or a sense of spiritual urgency, is its proximate cause. The cetasika viriya, energy, accompanies almost all cittas, except sixteen ahetuka cittas, cittas that are unaccompanied by beautiful roots or unwholesome roots. Thus, whenever attachment and delight with regard to an object arises, the cetasika of energy accompanies that citta and performs its function of effort or energy for attachment and delight in that object. Be it akusala citta or kusala citta which arises, viriya cetasika accompanies that citta. When akusala citta arises viriya cetasika is effort for akusala, whereas when kusala citta arises, viriya cetasika performs its function of effort for kusala. The perfection of energy is effort or endeavour for kusala. There should be energy or effort for each kind of kusala and when developed, it can become the perfection of energy. When sati arises and is aware of the characteristics of realities that are appearing at this moment, there is not me or self who makes an effort to be aware, but it is the function of right effort, sammå-våyåma. Right effort, viriya cetasika, arises and endeavours to study with awareness, to notice and pay attention to the reality that is appearing. Right effort is effort or energy for paññå which understands that what appears through the eyes is only a kind of rúpa which does not last; or that the reality which is seeing is only an element, a characteristic of nåma-dhamma experiencing what appears through the eyes. This is the perfection of energy that endeavours to study the characteristics of realities appearing one at a time. It does not matter whether the perfection of energy and sati arise often or seldom, viriya is not weary of the task of studying and noticing the reality that appears. When viriya arises, there is no discouragement; viriya performs its task all the time even if the process of the development of understanding is extremely slow and difficult. The perfection of energy is most important and it should be developed together with the other perfections so that the appropriate conditions are accumulated for reaching the further shore, that is, nibbåna. Even kusala which is dåna, generosity, cannot be performed without viriya. People may have kusala citta with the intention to give things away, but it is difficult for them to act in accordance with their good intentions because they are lazy: when there is an object they could give away, they do not give it away. They have confidence in kusala and they have the intention to be generous, but when viriya necessary for the accomplishment of generosity is deficient, they are not able to accomplish generous deeds. Therefore, the perfection of energy is essential, because it assists the other perfections, such as generosity or morality. The perfection of energy is an indispensable support for all kinds of kusala. Sometimes we may be lax and too lazy to perform kusala, we may think that its performing is troublesome, that we are too tired, or that it is time consuming. At such moments we are overcome by akusala and hence kusala cannot arise. If we know that it is difficult for us to perform kusala because we are inert and lazy, we should at this very moment, immediately, apply ourselves with diligence to kusala. Life is extremely short, as it lasts just for one moment of citta and this moment may be kusala citta or akusala citta, depending on conditions. Therefore, we should not give in to laziness with regard to our task of performing kusala. If we are all the time inert and lazy, it is evident that the perfection of energy is lacking and therefore, there are no conditions for the elimination of akusala. The only way to eliminate akusala is to be diligent and energetic in the performing of all kinds of kusala as far as we are able to. 16006 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:29pm Subject: Two very different statements Dear Group, I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu Bodh.). metta, Christine 16007 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:20pm Subject: Memory and Definition of Sati Hi Larry (and All), When preparing for my class on sati, I relied heavily on two recent books (both summarized in my Class Notes): - "Mindfulness in Plain English" by Ven. H. Gunaratana Mahathera. Full text available at http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm - "The Noble Eightfold Path" by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Full text available at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html The definition of sati in these books focuses on "seeing things as they truly are". I looked up references to sati in some of the source texts. What I found was quite interesting (thanks, Larry, for prompting me to take up this search). Clearly, there is a link between sati and memory (I was wrong in my earlier post). I have come to the conclusion after reading the source texts (plus footnotes) that the "memory" aspect of sati is not the recollection of a previous instance of the object, but recollection of the ethical quality of the object. Mindfulness, clearly separating right from wrong (wholesome from unwholesome) sees things as they truly are. For example, when I "see a pen", I can remember: 1. Label (i.e. this is called a pen) 2. Instance (i.e. this is the blue pen that I bought yesterday) 3. Characteristics (i.e. a pen is used for writing) 4. This is a visible object Points 1, 2 and 3 above are papanca and I don't think that they belong to the Buddhist definition of sati. I see "remembering that this is a visible object" as mindfulness and means, "seeing things as they truly are". Not floating on the surface of the water like a pumpkin pushed by currents and wind, but penetrating directly to the foundation like a stone placed in water, not affected by currents and wind. Here is the result of my reading the original texts: Sekha Sutta (The Disciple in Higher Learning) M53.16: "He has mindfulness; he possesses the highest mindfulness and skill; he recalls and recollects what was done long ago and spoken long ago." Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on this verse is as follows, "Here the text explains sati, mindfulness, by reference to its original meaning of memory. The relationship between the two senses of sati – memory and attentiveness – may be formulated thus: keen attentiveness to the present forms the basis for an accurate memory of the past. MA takes the mention of sati here to imply all seven factors of enlightenment, among which it is first." The Questions of King Milinda, Book II (The Distinguishing Characteristics of Ethical Qualities), Chapter I, Verse 12: "The King said: `What, Nagasena, is the characteristic mark of mindfulness?' `Repetition, O king, and keeping up.' `And how is repetition the mark of mindfulness?' `As mindfulness, O king, springs up in his heart he repeats over the good and evil, right and wrong, slight and important, dark and light qualities, and those that resemble them, saying to himself: "These are the four modes of keeping oneself ready and mindful, these the four modes of spiritual effort, these the four bases of extraordinary powers, these the five organs of the moral sense, these the five mental powers, these the seven bases of Arahantship, these eight divisions of the Excellent Way, this is serenity and this is insight, this is wisdom and this emancipation." Thus does the recluse follow after those qualities that are desirable, and not after those that are not; thus does he cultivate those which ought to be practiced, and not those which ought not. That is how repetition is the mark of mindfulness.'" Footnote to the phrase "Repetition, O king, and keeping up" by translator (T. W. Rhys Davids): "Apilapana and upaganhana, both new words. This definition is in keeping with the etymological meaning of the word sati, which is `memory'. It is one of the most difficult words (in its secondary, ethical, and more usual meaning [I think this refers to the meaning of attentiveness, as opposed to memory]) in the whole Buddhist system of ethical psychology to translate. Hardy renders `conscience', which is certainly wrong; and Gogerly has `meditation' , which is equally wide of the mark. I have sometimes rendered it, `self-possession'. It means that activity of the mind, constant presence of mind, wakefulness of heart, which is the foe of carelessness, inadvertence, self-forgetfulness. And it is a very constant theme of the Buddhist moralist. Buddhaghosa makes `readiness', its mark." Dhamma-sangani (first book of Abhidhamma) Book I (The Uprising of Thoughts) Part I (Good States of Consciousness) Chapter I, Verse 14: "What on that occasion is the faculty of mindfulness (satindriyam)? The mindfulness which on that occasion is recollecting, calling back to mind; the mindfulness which is remembering, bearing in mind, the opposite of superficiality and of obliviousness; mindfulness as faculty, mindfulness as power, right mindfulness – this is the faculty of mindfulness that there then is." Footnote to the question by translator (C. A. F. Rhys Davids): "Buddhaghosa's comment on sati, in which he closely follows and enlarges on the account in Mil. 37, 38, shows that the traditional conception of that aspect of consciousness had much in common with conscience or moral sense. Sati (Sk. : smrti, memory) is in Buddhism not merely memory, but is lucid retention of both past and present. It appears under the metaphor of an inward mentor, discriminating between good and bad and prompting choice. Hardy went so far as to render it "conscience" but this slurs over the interesting divergences between Eastern and Western thought. The former is quite unmystical on the subject of sati. It takes the psychological process of representative functioning (without bringing out the distinction between bare memory and judgment), and presents the same under an ethical aspect." Visuddhimagga Part III (Understanding) Chapter XIV (Description of the Aggregates) Paragraph 141: "By its means they remember (saranti), or it itself remembers, or it is just mere remembering (sarana) thus it is mindfulness (sati). It has the characteristic of not wobbling. It function is not to forget. It is manifested as guarding, or it is manifested as the state of confronting an objective field. Its proximate cause is strong perception, or its proximate cause is the Foundations of Mindfulness concerned with the body, and so on (see M Sutta 10). It should be regarded, however, as like a pillar because it is firmly founded, or like a door-keeper because it guards the eye door, and so on. Footnote to "wobbling" by translator (Bhikkhu Nanamoli): "Apilapana (not wobbling) is the steadying of an object, the remembering and not forgetting it, keeping it immovable as a stone instead of letting it go bobbing about like a pumpkin in water." Let me close by quoting from the introductory essay of the PTS version of Abhidhammatthasangaha by Shwe Zan Aung under the section "Confusion in terminology": "I allude to the various renderings adopted by different Occidental scholars of Buddhist technical terms. To select a few out of many: The much abused term `thought' has been made by some to stand for cetana, by others for vitakka; again by others for vicara. Sanna (perception in the widest sense of the term) used to be rendered by `memory', as also was sati (presence of mind). The former term is, of course, nearer the mark; and yet to render sanna by `memory' is to confuse it with the higher process of memory, in which sanna may play a more prominent part than in any other process, but of which it (sanna) is only an element or factor. Even in a single stage of a concrete process, sanna would be more prominent in that of delimitation (votthabbana), apperception and identification, just as another element, attention (manasikara) is more active when mind adverts to sense stimuli. For the same reason, the element of registration or identification (tadarammana) should not be mistaken for a concrete process like memory. Thanks, Rob M :-) 16008 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:00pm Subject: Way 5, Intro cont "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction continued All that the Buddha taught from the time of his enlightenment to his passing away into the Element of Immortality has been summed up in the sentence: "strive with earnestness" the last words of the Master. Earnestness runs through the whole of the Buddhaword, and embraces everything there. It is like the elephant's footprint which is able to contain the footprint of any other animal. Therefore did the Blessed One say: "all wholesome things are founded on earnestness, converge on earnestness, and earnestness is to be considered as the most excellent of them." Mindfulness in this sense is found to be the chief characteristic of all skillful actions leading to bliss here and hereafter and tending to one's own and to other's profit. It is the force which pushes one to right practice, after one has given careful thought to the Buddha's Teaching. Life as it is understood in the Dispensation of the Buddha is unsatisfactory until one can through moral joy, meditative tranquillity and wise understanding reach mental invulnerability to suffering. The Way of Mindfulness is understanding and tranquillity illumined by a bright moral character. Without a blameless happy life of virtue it is not possible to tranquilize the heart or make the intellect keen and clear for spiritual perfection. The spiritual man is a person of so sensitive and heightened a consciousness that he finds even slight moral guilt burdensome and so he cannot help avoiding all traces of it by a strict adherence to virtue. Otherwise owing to remorse at his backslidings and preoccupation with them he will not find the right inner environment and climate for developing the placidity and insight which produce the power of perfect equanimity necessary for changing over from mental slavery to freedom. The cheerful joyous atmosphere which virtue gives is more necessary to the aspirant to Nibbana than anything else to keep him spiritually alive. Although the Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness does not speak of virtue directly, in detail, and is principally concerned with the calming of the mind and wise understanding, the presence of the virtue-foundation is implied, since the instruction on mindfulness is intended for the "unification of beings", and there is no purification in the Dhamma which does not begin with "purification of virtue" [sila visuddhi], and it is only after "purification of virtue" [sila patitthaya] that the wise man develops concentration, and wisdom and attains liberation. Further , there is enough in the commentary and the explanation to it, to prove the importance of virtue to the aspirant, and to show how tranquillity and understanding help in the protecting, the preserving, and the perfecting of virtue. The Way of Mindfulness moves towards the equanimity of the fully quieted mind along the firm and sure ground of active virtue. Because of this virtuous basis it is a reliable way to highest security, free from the bogs, swamps, and sloughs of vice and the dangerous, futility of inaction. Analysis is a salient feature of the method of arriving at knowledge in the Buddhadhamma. The Buddha is the Master of analytic knowledge and his doctrine is called the Teaching of Analysis [vibhajjavada]. The Way of Mindfulness is therefore naturally replete with the application of the principles of analysis. The sentient being is radically searched through manifold analysis to see if anything in him is unanalysable. Only that which is relative is analysable; only that which is conditioned and dependent on something else. The absolute, the unconditioned, and the independent are not analysable. Is there anything absolute in the sentient being, or is everything in the sentient being relative? The answer has to be found out by the aspirant, after being convinced by valid thought and experience, in order to reach the first glimpse of the goal. By training to think along the lines indicated in the Way he will be able to conclude with certainty what the nature of sentient individuality really is. On the immovable basis of such correct knowledge rests the final realization of supra mundane perfection. The aim of analysis in the Way of the Buddha is to attain correct understanding of the component parts of sentient existence and their relations, for rightly grasping the unique totality of the individual that emerges from the relations. Only a Buddha, however, has the ability to gauge the uniqueness of individual totality consummately. But the important thing to be noted here is that a just and generally accurate perception of the significance of the totality as a thing distinct from every other and possessing a character that clearly is not to be merely described or defined by the parts is the result of the team-work of the forces of wisdom and concentrated vision. Analysis of the parts lays bare the constituent components. Analysis of the relations gives a sense of the totality. All the differences that make for uniqueness are seen as due to subtle distinctions of relations. And the uniqueness of the personality, individuality, and entirety of a living being depends on the countless number of ever changing relations, their infinite variety, subtle nuances, and endless possibilities in each separate life-flux. The analytic nature of the Way leads one finally to the vision of the sentient being as a uniquely related totality that transcends the parts and has a character all its own. The sense of totality to which the logic of analysis leads is realized as true in the intensity of the absorptive or unifying activity of concentrative thought. Here, the development of penetrative insight [vipassana] combines with that of tranquilizing concentration [samatha], and each functions in a way that does not outstrip the other. Both gain uniformity of force. Through the overdoing of analysis there could be agitation. And indolence creeps in through too much of tranquillity. Searching analysis is predominantly intellective and is the work of insight. Wholehearted acceptance is principally intuitive and springs from the placidity of concentration. In the sense of yoking [yuganandhatthena] and of not letting (either) become overwhelming [anativattanatthena] contemplative balance is reached. That balance is manifested as the sober, serene, steadfast acceptance of the truth which analysis reveals. This is a middle way. It does not overlook any valuable knowledge or experience of the spirit and does not edge sideways but goes straight forward, intent on the Real, free from all biases. Though it looks within, it is aware of what is without. Along such a way one can transcend the narrow vision of a barricaded individuality and the indefinable looseness of view of a dissipated and disintegrated spirit. 16009 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements Hi Christine Here is a nice little Sutta on "oneness". > Dear Group, > > I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. > Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. > > "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). > > "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not > endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu > Bodh.). > > metta, > Christine > Samyutta Nikaya XII.48 Lokayatika Sutta The Cosmologist Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything exist?" "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" "'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Oneness?" "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Manyness?" "'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-& -form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life." **************** Take Care Steve 16010 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory and Definition of Sati Dear Rob, Wow! What a treasure trove. Great research Rob. This one should definitely go in the Useful Posts file. Eventhough it still makes sense to me to label the recognition of breath or unpleasant feeling as a function of sati, I am willing to abandon that idea in the light of this evidence. On my reading, sati is actually an ethical cetasika regardless of buddhist doctrine. This definitely sheds a new light on mindfulness. Thanks very much. Jolly good show! Larry 16011 From: vimmuti Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:54pm Subject: nimita or sign when we concentrate on a small area of the body the area of the concentration develops its own sensation after a while. is this is what is meant by nimita and that we should shift our primary attention to it?......henry 16012 From: vimmuti Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:01pm Subject: whoops... i am also telling some young people on paltalk that the primary of the first foundation of Mindfullness is sensation and if touch the tactile pure stimuli and not the concept of touch itself is the object for meditation... is that in line with the Mahasatipathana and the vimmutimagda? 16013 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Jon, Thanks for the link and thanks to Nina for writing it. This accords nicely with Rob's quotes and adds something on the relationship between sati and vipassana. Sati is the remembrance of vipassana applied to the object. If I had read it before it had never stuck in my mind that sati is the remembrance of kusala; in this case the kusala of seeing anicca, dukkha, anatta, or, on a mundane level, at least the idea of anicca, dukkha, anatta. There has always been a lingering frustration with not experiencing a genuine insight while practicing mindfulness of breathing. Any thoughts that may have arisen, even thoughts about dhamma, I had dismissed as distractions. I think this added dimension of memory will definitely perk up the practice and make it more meaningful. Plus, I think the mere activity of sitting there in the meditation posture cultivating alert tranqulity is kusala and as such is an integral part of the sati proceedure. I'm sure I have been told this before, but it has always gone in one ear and out the other. Larry --------------------- Jon: "Larry There are lots of useful references from relevant texts on the points you mention below, and also on the so-called 'memory' connection you bring up in a later post, in Nina's book 'Cetasikas'. I have pasted below a link to Ch. 6 'Mindfulness (sati). Jon http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas28.htm " 16014 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 4, Intro cont Hi Sarah, Thanks for bringing out these points about sati as cetasika. Is sati the faculty that discriminates between kusala and akusala? Larry 16015 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] whoops... Hi Henry, I don't know the answer to the question on nimita but for what you said below I would say that is a good basic introductory instruction. If you want to go into more detail you might look here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html We are studying that text under the subject heading Way 1, Way 2 etc. I think it will be several weeks before we get to mindfulness of breathing. Larry --------------- Henry: "i am also telling some young people on paltalk that the primary of the first foundation of Mindfullness is sensation and if touch the tactile pure stimuli and not the concept of touch itself is the object for meditation... is that in line with the Mahasatipathana and the vimmutimagda?" 16016 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Four Sublime States (long message) Hi, Antony - In a message dated 9/4/02 12:43:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@h... writes: > > Dear Howard and all, > > Here is an extract from Majjhima 95 about safeguarding the truth. > > "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? > > To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the > > safeguarding of the truth." > > "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion > that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, > Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one > safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But > > it is not yet an awakening to the truth. > > "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has > something > reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered > views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion > that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, > Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one > safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But > > it is not yet an awakening to the truth." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn095.html > > with metta / Antony. > ============================ I like this very much! Gee, it seems ole Sakyamuni had few things on the ball! LOL! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16017 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/30/02 5:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. > Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. > > "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). > > "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not > endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu > Bodh.). > > metta, > Christine > ============================== Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong! All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are interdependent. However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a philosophy of nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a multiplicity of self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent origination is the middle way. That's my take. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16018 From: Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements Hi, all - I just wrote the following reply to Christine. I wrote it before reading the post from Steve (Bodhi2500@a...) in which he provides the sutta "Samyutta Nikaya XII.48 Lokayatika Sutta The Cosmologist". Had I read this first I wouldn't have bothered writing my post - the Buddha said it all, and, of course, much better! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/30/02 10:57:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 9/30/02 5:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > cforsyth@v... writes: > > > > > > Dear Group, > > > > I was intrigued by two statements that I read in the one evening. > > Perhaps they may stimulate reflection in others as well. > > > > "All things in the universe are one" (from a dhamma friend). > > > > "The teaching of the Buddha as found in the Pali Canon does not > > endorse a philosophy of non-dualism of any variety." (from Bhikkhu > > Bodh.). > > > > metta, > > Christine > > > ============================== > Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong! > All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are > interdependent. > However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a philosophy of > nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a multiplicity of > self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent > origination > is the middle way. That's my take. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16019 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] not new but here again. Hi again, DW. I think I remember you. Is there a military connection there? Anyway, wlecome back. Please feel free to join in the discussion any time. Jon --- wink_1000 wrote: > Hello all. > > I used to be here on the list, and then I went away and now I am back > again. This time I managed to join the group without first insulting > it on other e-mail lists. So I've made progress! :-) > > Anyway. I'm looking forward to your posts. > > D.W. 16020 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements/Steve Hi Steve, Thanks for the Sutta ... I don't think I'd seen it before, though the paticcasamuppada is familiar. There certainly isn't anything new under the sun. The study of Cosmology 2500 years ago? ... today it is a branch of astrophysics. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Bodhi2500@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > Here is a nice little Sutta on "oneness". > Samyutta Nikaya XII.48 > Lokayatika Sutta > The Cosmologist > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist went to the Blessed One and, > on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of > friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, > he said to the Blessed One, "Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything > exist?" "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." > "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" "'Everything does not > exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a > Oneness?" "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, > brahman." "Then is everything a Manyness?" "'Everything is a Manyness' is the > fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata > teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition > come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes > consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. > From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the > six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a > requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition > comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes > clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes > becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a > requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, > & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of > stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that > very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of > fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of > consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-& > -form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the > six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact > comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the > cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of > clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the > cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of > birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, > pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire > mass of stress & suffering." "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just > as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was > hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark > so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- > through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master > Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master > Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from > this day forward, for life." > > **************** > > Take Care > Steve 16021 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:29am Subject: Re: for the mind to be alive and interested.../KenH Hi KenH, I think the scripture you refer to is about Kisa Gotam (frail Gotami). http://www.geocities.com/zennun12_8/kisagotami.html Thanks for the 'froth and bubble' quote - it brought back memories ... (I remember having to learn parts of ALG's "Ye wearie wayfarer" by heart for talking in class.) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Anthony and Christine, > > Christine wrote: > ----------- > > You may be surprised at the understanding some people > have of what the Scriptures actually say of 'what metta > is' and 'to whom it should be pervaded'. I was. > > ------------ > > So was I Christine, but it confirmed something we Aussies > were taught at primary school: > > "Life is mainly froth and bubble, > Two things stand like stone; > Kindness in an other's trouble, > Courage in your own." > (Adam Lindsay Gordon) > > We are all suffering but we apply a different therapy to > other people's suffering than we apply to our own. We > don't tell someone who is grieving, "there is grief > here but there is no self who grieves;" the perception of > insensitivity would only add to their suffering. > > It makes me think of that sutta (sorry, no ref.), in > which the Buddha told an inconsolable bereaved mother to > find a household that had not known bereavement and bring > back a pinch of mustard seed. I suppose the woman > thought at first, that she was being offered a medication > of some sort. Had the Buddha simply said, "dukkha is > everywhere," the beauty of that truth would have been > lost on her. > > Kind regards > Ken H 16022 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Two very different statements/Howard Hi Howard, I like your take! Concise, no-frills and understandable. Thanks. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > Here's my arrogant answer: They are both wrong! > All dhammas *are* alike in being anatta, and they are interdependent. > However, they are not "one". Nonduality is not unity, and a philosophy of > nonduality need not be monism. Unity is one extreme, and a multiplicity of > self-existing things is another, but the non-duality of dependent origination > is the middle way. That's my take. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16023 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 2:07am Subject: Proximate Cause of masculinity, femininity, heart base Hi All, Does anybody know the proximate cause of masculinity, femininity and heart base? I suspect that it might be sankhara; according to paticcasamuppada, patisandhi-citta depends upon sankhara to arise and it is the patisandhi-citta which has the characteristics to masculinity / femininity and heart base. Comments? Thanks, Rob M :-) 16024 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 3:25am Subject: Way - comments on introductions-S Dear Larry & All, I have quite a few parts of the introductions so far marked for comment. I usually prefer not to make comments when the writer cannot reply and has offered this wonderful gift, but as this edition of the translation is so well-read and has been posted here for discussion, I think it’s important to raise a few points which I may also pass on to B.Bodhi. Of course, these are merely my personal views only: Foreward by Cassius A.Pereira ====================== 1. Unusual vocabulary (lost on me) used in translations, eg “diapason” in “Resound thus, O Bhikkhus, your swelling diapason of just rejoicing” in the first para. 2. Questionable comments and description, eg “..the text reflects the course of the aspirant’s progress in watchful thinking, even as verses in a gallop rhythm can picture the speeding rider and the steady beat of a horse’s hooves”. 3. Unsupported generalisations, eg “He who begins this practice of Satipatthana finds that indeed he needs must rein in his thoughts sharply and often.” 4. Unclear comments and suggestions of ‘self’, eg “But, as a rider slide as it were into the way of its doing, on a bicycle, or a trotting horse -- so in his practice the Yogi gradually falls in with “its way” till, after a while, its working seems smooth and clear.” Intro by Soma Thera (first half) ======================= 1. Ambiguous and suspect comments, eg “The seeker knows to a certainty that what he wants is to be found in the realm of the spirit. there alone he feels he would reach the vision of oneness (ekatta).......etc”, “Right Understanding and its group......is rational. And when it is combined with Right Concentration.....it is intuitive”, “the knowledge of things gained from different relations and different angles...”, “This is a middle way. It does not overlook any valuable knowledge or experience of the spirit.....Along such a way one can transcend the narrow vision of a barricaded individuality and the indefinable looseness of view of a dissipated and disintegrate spirit.” 2. Questionable comments about mindfulness (satipatthana), eg “Mindfulness as memory” is rather misleading to me, but this is being discussed separately. Also “Mindfulness as the activity that takes care of the mind and protects it”, “Strong mindfulnes ignores the unnecessary, by adhering to the center of the business in hand......By such a balance between width and depth mindfulness steers clear of the extremes of lopsided vision and practice.” 3. Inaccurate comments about satipatthana, eg “Without mindfulness there will be no reconstitution of already acquired knowledge and consciousness itself would break into pieces, become fragmentary, and be unable to do properly the work of cognition.” .Also “the aim of analysis in the Way of the Buddha is to attain correct understanding of the component parts of sentient existence and their relations, for rightly grasping the unique totality of the individual that emerges from the relations.” 4. Suggestions of the wrong view of a self that is mindful, eg “When one is strongly mindful, one plants one’s consciousness deep in an object like a firm post well sunk in the ground”,“The analytic nature of the Way leads one finally to the vision of thesentient being as a uniquely related totality that transcends the parts and has a character all its own.” 5. Comments on virtue unsupported by the sutta or other texts and also ambiguous, eg “The spiritual man is a person of so sensitive and heightened a consciousness that he finds even slight moral guilt burdensome......”, “The cheerful joyous atmosphere which virtue gives is more necessary to the aspirant to Nibbana than anything else to keep him spiritually alive.”, “...it is only after “purification of virtue” (sila patitthaya) that the wise man develops concentration, and wisdom and attains liberation.” 7. Suggestions that satipatthana is intellectual (“thinking” or “analysis”) rather than direct understanding and awareness, eg “By training to think along the lines indicated in the Way he will be able to conclude with certainty what the nature of sentient individuality really is.”, “the sentient being is radically searched through manifold analysis to see if anything in him is unanalysable”, “Searching analysis is predominantly intellective and is the work of insight.”, “Through the overdoing of analysis there could be agitation. And indolence creeps in through too much of tranquillity”. ********** I believe there are so many errors, questionable comments and ambiguities unspported by texts in these introductions, that it would be more useful to present the Sutta and commentaries (preferably in full) with the Translator’s Note and no introductions, than to include these ones by C.Pereira and Soma Thera himself. I apologise if these comments seem too strong or offensive to anyone. Sarah ===== 16025 From: vimmuti Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 4:58am Subject: need a little dhamma wisdom plz yester day i asked 2 questions, Based on: The Four Arousings of Mindfulness "What are the four? "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief i would like to know if the pure and unqualified by mental labeleling tactile sensation (if using a touch kasina) is the primary object.. and do you feel the nimita or sign acquired when momentary concentration is acheived is a physical construct of the process of concentration.. thanks...henry 16026 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] need a little dhamma wisdom plz Hi Henry, Welcome to DSG. I see you've started with two tricky questions and I expect others are considering replies. Some of us are always quite behind, so don't worry if there's some delay. Let me look quickly at your first Qu.: --- vimmuti wrote: > yester day i asked 2 questions, Based on: > > The Four Arousings of Mindfulness > "What are the four? > "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, > ardent, > clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in > this world, > covetousness and grief > > i would like to know if the pure and unqualified by mental labeleling > tactile sensation (if using a touch kasina) is the primary object.. > ..... As you know, we're discussing the Satipatthana Sutta (still on the introductions) and will be looking at this in more detail. When there is awareness of rupa (physical phenomena), experienced through any sense door, it is clear that only that rupa is experienced. Through the body door, this may be hardness/softness, heat/cold, motion/pressure. Anything else, including 'kasina' is a concept. These rupas are different from the consciousness (bodily experiencing if it's the body door) that experiences the object. As you suggest (I think), mental labelling is not the same as awareness or sati. I'm in a bit of a rush, so this may not sound very clear....let me know. Why not also introduce yourself and tell us a little more about your interest in Buddhism and where you live? Hope you find it useful on DSG, Sarah ====== 16027 From: vimmuti Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 6:32am Subject: ok Sarah First, my oldest daughters name is sarah so this feels like i found a good place. Been doing vipasana for about 30 years, mentors are Ven Piyananda, Mahasi Sayadaw, Satgayi U Ba Kin and currently Bhante Gunaratana where i am an occasional driver at his center. Mrs. Ruth Denison was my teacher... Do work for Wat Rangsee in Sterling Va. Was up in Vancouver about two weeks ago visiting the big temple in Richmond B.C. when i thought to myself, "what if we threw everything out except the practice, what would it look like as a daily video broadcast on the web, hmmm. So i built a little sit and chat channel on an ap called Paltalk and it is going pretty good. Here's an excerpt from a video chat on the 21st: Welcome Msg: Let's celebrate life for the whole human family with an informal buddhist sit each weekday. Whatever your religious persuasion we are all in this neat thing called "being" together. So let's dance and give thanks....:-) FlipperLaugh: www.bluemountainzendo.org quietmind1: the last place i wud go, seriously... quietmind1: well, maybe not the last////but it reeks of egoism and psychosis... quietmind1: how do i know... Well i helped kessei with the audio on his first web page... FlipperLaugh: yea you never finished FlipperLaugh: I have been waiting a year quietmind1: you could have had it if you had cooperated by simple yes and no answers but i and purplehaze another helper agree you are to lost in your own self importance... quietmind1: to=too for today FlipperLaugh: lol quietmind1: be well and happy, kessei... FlipperLaugh: now finish those sound bites and stop wasting time quietmind1: wanna hear the environmental background i think i will use for the sit portion of this show? quietmind1: you cud have had this plus your talks as a split two channel audio.. quietmind1: like white noise thru the right speaker... a looped chant very low and the instructions as we sit thru the left... FlipperLaugh: cool FlipperLaugh: I have yet to find out how to keep the music on throughout the page FlipperLaugh: page does not know how either FlipperLaugh: opps paz quietmind1: you will also notice no symbols. no heavy religion just sitting if you come... FlipperLaugh: I am a buddhist FlipperLaugh: but I understand why you would want to keep it neutral FlipperLaugh: being from the tradition you are in that is shocking quietmind1: well this is Kiss buddhism.... Keep It Simple, Stupid buddhism quietmind1: and who are we presenting this too. The Pali society...dont think so FlipperLaugh: Let Thich Nhat Hanh do that quietmind1: yeah. let him hinayana, mahayana, and this is the vehicle for dumb folks like you and me... vmh100: are we meditating? quietmind1: cud be... want to? vmh100: what??? quietmind??? quietmind1: yeah sure... know how quietmind1: do a 35min? quietmind1: flipper keeps time? vmh100: huh??? please give us some instruction quietmind1: want some intro v? vmh100: sure quietmind1: got to put me on your buddy list so i can shoot you the text... quietmind1: ready? vmh100: done quietmind1: ok got a pillow or cushion? vmh100: thanks FlipperLaugh: well I come here to hang out FlipperLaugh: not here to do zazen quietmind1: how about the pillow question? vmh100: I am reading the instruction now quietmind1: well that's ok, go tou have a webcam flip? quietmind1: read as do you.... FlipperLaugh: sure I do FlipperLaugh: I need some tampoons to make a kesa FlipperLaugh: do you have a kesa quiet? quietmind1: but, this room is not about a whole bunch of things. might be about 10 precepts and the reasons behind them or the four noble truths but not about things like reincarnation or buddhist cosmology or soul/no soul. quietmind1: just sit and then go over to smilingones pad if you want to chat is how i see it... FlipperLaugh: ahh quietmind1: how ya doing V? quietmind1: oh flip do you know how to use this ap to make everyone an administrator? vmh100: good FlipperLaugh: yes vmh100: why do we need to note the sensations when we experience them? FlipperLaugh: give me your code quietmind1: kuul ya wanna try the mindfulness of breath for say 10 mins...? quietmind1: ok, so that's how....thnks... quietmind1: vmh, what do you need to know so we can sit? vmh100: what are the benefits of vipassana? quietmind1: ok, i will show you but i have a lot of variations and styles for new meditators to help.. watch the video.... vmh100: where is the video? FlipperLaugh: quiet do you have it on DVD? vmh100: hello quietmind, are you still there? quietmind1: see you don't need much to get started.... quietmind1: did you click on the camera v? vmh100: yes, I see you sitting in a lotus position quietmind1: ok, now do you have a cushion or a pillow. And how do you think you could use it to sit quietly for some time? vmh100: i am sitting in a chair vmh100: i am sitting half lotus quietmind1: ok a chair is ok, but there is a but here. We use a chair for all sorts of things. It might be better to choose a special meditation position so that it reminds you what you are doing... got me? vmh100: there is a bell on my computer that rings every 15 miniutes and I stop doing everything and just pay attention to my breathe. vmh100: yes quietmind1: now do you have a pillow or cushion that you can put on the floor? vmh100: do i open or close my eyes while meditating? vmh100: yes quietmind1: in the beginning closed eyes are preffered as it reduces sensory distraction. After a couple months it doesn't matter. vmh100: ok quietmind1: ok i will show you 3 beginner postures suitable for people new to seated meditation. they are the tailors. the lions, and the womans... quietmind1: ready? quietmind1: camera on? vmh100: :) vmh100: yes vmh100: i can sit in half lotus vmh100: but gradually i want to sit in full lotus position quietmind1: did you identify all 3? vmh100: no i did not see any change on the video quietmind1: interesting????? quietmind1: do you see the screen get dark? vmh100: that's ok, i can sit in half lotus vmh100: no quietmind1: well, let's think about that for a sec.... the standard time of northern buddhist for a sit is about 45mins but for southern asian people it sometimes extends for as much as 3 hours.. How long do you think you can sit in half lotus without wiggling around or in pain? vmh100: not too long, because I am a beginner vmh100: about 15 minutes vmh100: what position are u sitting in the video? vmh100: it doesn't look like a lotus position? quietmind1: i picked the 35mins as a time i thought people should shoot for but i don't expect it. And i think it takes about 10 or 15 mins from the start to begin to get focused on the breathe.... quietmind1: i am sitting at my desk at the moment but yes i use a full lotus but i have been doing this for 30 years... vmh100: do u sit alone or with a group? quietmind1: both i sit 45mins twice a day and occasionally go to the temple... vmh100: i find sitting or practicing alone i tend to get lazy vmh100: i don't have a sangha to go to quietmind1: well that is why a little symbollic action can be a great help.. quietmind1: where do you live? vmh100: in canada quietmind1: symbollic means special position for body and hands, bowing. preliminary recital of prayer or wish, things like that vmh100: and you do that in your house with your family? quietmind1: what big town. i was just up in vancouver and it was loaded with buddhist temples. 32 flavors almost... quietmind1: yes/... vmh100: where are you from? quietmind1: virginia in the us vmh100: i am from a small town 100 km near Toronto quietmind1: on a mountain in the blue ridge appalachians.. vmh100: no buddhist or temple here that i know off vmh100: are you monastic or lay person? quietmind1: yeah, you could go to toronto once a month or something... vmh100: maybe. quietmind1: i am a worker for the Bhavana Society in Gore va and a lay person. Monks cant drive so i do that for them occasionally vmh100: oh vmh100: I would like to become a monk very soon quietmind1: how old are you? vmh100: 30 HaSsaWe: HI vmh100: hi hassawe quietmind1: ok, go to www.bhavanasociety.org and check out the Theravadin novice monk program. And i will end up driving you around too,,, vmh100: :) quietmind1: i mean it..... but in the meantime can i pop a couple more ideas on meditation? vmh100: have you heard of the vietnamese Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh quietmind1: yep, sure have, good writer and spokesperson for vietnamese buddhism HaSsaWe: c u ..i think i didn't get it bye quietmind1: bye quietmind1: what do you think focus on your breath means. Tell me how you would do that vmh100: yes I am thinking going to his monastery and practise vmh100: following the breathe, just feel the breathe coming in, and feel it going out. vmh100: know that's it the in breathe, and it's out breathe quietmind1: sort of. you fix your attention to where the greatest sensation of moving air is, cud be your nostrils, could be your upper lip cud be your sinus cavity in your nose,,, vmh100: ok quietmind1: you do not follow the inhalation or exhalation only the sensation got it? quietmind1: at one point... vmh100: i think i felt it in my nostril and abdominal quietmind1: the diaphram between your lungs and stomach is another good place but it is more complicated as you are now feeling a result and not the breath itself...got me? vmh100: yes quietmind1: we are interested in primary tactile sensation,,, quietmind1: let's try an experiment without even sitting, ok? vmh100: so is the nostril a good place to feel the sensation of the breathe? quietmind1: yes the experiment islet's see in one minute how long we can hold on to that sensation only without wandering around in our minds, ok? vmh100: yes quietmind1: ready. set. go........:-) quietmind1: ok!!!!! we did it,,,,, vmh100: :) quietmind1: ok now the wandering test. Me i was wandering about 70% of the time... You? vmh100: i felt some itch, some thought on this conversation, noise from outside quietmind1: good than you and i both know the difference between focus and non focus on a tactile stimuli... so that's great... vmh100: is that normal? quietmind1: now we have to work out a strategy so we are a hundred percent focused because in budd med that is called access concentration vmh100: access concentration? quietmind1: oh yes that is quite normal and an amazing thing occured. You noticed how flipflop your mind is. Imagine what comes up in an hour sit...:-) vmh100: yes many distraction quietmind1: ok, now do you have time on monday to sit with me at 5:30 EST? quietmind1: pm vmh100: sure, i will here vmh100: can I ask you some questions? quietmind1: kuul, we will do a 35min shot at concentration (i don't expect you to sit it thru) and then compare notes. One last thing and i have to go cut the grass,,,, quietmind1: counting and preliminary wish vmh100: are the Buddha's other basic teachings like the Four Noble Truth and Eightfold Path just as important as meditation? quietmind1: it is possible to partial block wandering mind by forming a nuemonic repetitious loop of verbal constructs. One good way is as the breathe touches your skin area on an inbreathe note 1. next breathe note 2, maybe up to 5 and then start over again... quietmind1: yes, probably more important and they lead to a lot of conjecture and anger and misunderstanding on paltalk as you know... vmh100: I see a lot of Westerners concentrate mainly on meditation and tend to ignore the Buddha's other essential teachings vmh100: maybe they think it conflict with their belief system vmh100: and from the asian side, some do a lot of worship and rituals and nothing to do with the Buddha's teachings quietmind1: Buddhism is an experiential religion that is growing. The size of the various books that are and have been written would fill a soccer stadium, Westeners get very confused as to what was meant. I am not teaching buddhism although i know a lot about it. I am trying to present the source as a living means quietmind1: if you joined me and flipper early enough that was why she left the channel, vmh100: if you don't teach the essence of the Buddha's teaching, beside just meditation, you missed out a lot vmh100: i know u are trying not to offend some of the people from other belief system vmh100: but the Buddha's teachings are not dogmatic quietmind1: ok, but by limiting myself on this channel to a nonverbal nonconjectural tiny bit that i understand very well i think i can interest young people in looking at the big picture... quietmind1: after all, i am not the dalai lama, just a guy who knows how to do vipasana meditation and has done it a loooong time...:-) vmh100: :) 30 years wow quietmind1: thirty years to life was my sentence and here i am... vmh100: i came to Buddhism several years ago when I read a book by Thich Nhat hanh "Peace is every step" vmh100: that book changed my outlook on life and buddhism quietmind1: he use to be published by the wheel society in kandy Sri Lanka and i use to read his zen stuff... quietmind1: this was when he was in saigon in the 70's. Good man, good heart... quietmind1: ok did you get the counting idea thatt habituates itself? vmh100: his explaination of Buddhism make a lot of sense to me and his teachings are very practical quietmind1: ok, now the preliminary prayer technique. Give me a short prayer you know... vmh100: no, what do u mean? quietmind1: go back to the point where i say it is possible to block wandering mind//// vmh100: prayer? I don't know any ;( quietmind1: ok, i will give you one to use, ok? vmh100: how is that? quietmind1: "may all living things be well and happy, may they be free from suffering, may they be strong self confident and peaceful" quietmind1: ok, here's how you use it.... ready? vmh100: yes...but I don't look at it as a prayer. quietmind1: yes, your wish is metta given to all living things... quietmind1: here's it's use in meditation. Ready? vmh100: yes quietmind1: at the start of the sit you do a gasho with your hands and repeat it silently. Every time you completely go off track you do gasho and repeat it silently. This clears your mind and you return to the focus subject. i,e, breathe quietmind1: did you understand the counting helper and the prayer helper? vmh100: ok i will try that in the future vmh100: thank you vmh100: can u explain the counting helper? quietmind1: enough for today. got to cut the grass. Seeya monday or whenever and e-mail me if you have any earth shaking questions. ok? vmh100: thank you vmh100: see you vmh100: :) vmh100: have a nice day quietmind vmh100: cut the grass in mindfullness :) quietmind1: ok, this is actually based on the idea thatif we habituate a repetitve pattern in the mind it will not think about anything else. we will work on this on monday or so...seeya and sometimes people like vmh100 want some text instructions so i send them: Satipathana Meditation An Introduction to Meditating An introduction to Satipathana Meditation Satipathana Meditation is also known as Insight Meditation, and the aim is to gain a better awareness of one's nature, whether physical, mental, or spiritual. One way to be more aware is by observing our perceptions; becoming aware of how we perceive with our senses. Every time one sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches, or thinks, one should make a note of the fact, becoming aware of it happening, and observing one's reactions to that sense. However, it is difficult at first to make a note of every one, and so it is probably best to begin with noting those happening which are easily observed. Set aside about 20 minutes to practice meditating. To begin, find a quiet place to sit down, either cross-legged on the floor, or in a chair with a straight back. (If this is uncomfortable, you can also practice by lying on the floor.) Breathe through your nose, and start by observing your breathing, being aware of the touch of air at your nostrils or lip when you breathe in and breathe out. Try not to verbalize to yourself, "i am breathing in, now i am breathing out." Instead, try to stay with just the sensation. Feel it with your senses and hear the sound of your breathing,just the tactile sensation. Don't try to control your breathing, Neither slow it down, nor make it faster. Breathe steadily as usual and note the inhalation at the nosetip or upper lip as they occur. Note it mentally, not verbally, and don't try to judge it by thinking, "i am breathing too quickly," or "i am breathing too slowly."Try to be aware as each breath happens. Everyone who begins meditating will have a wandering mind. That is perfectly normal. Don't worry about it, but try to become aware of it. Just think, "My mind is wandering now." You shouldn't have to force your mind to stop wandering, but instead, "lead" it back to focusing on your breathing. After you catch yourself and note it a few times, it becomes easier to persuade your mind to refocus on your breathing. If your mind continues to wander, you can take note of what it is imagining. If you imagine you are talking with someone, note "talking" to yourself. Whatever activity your mind starts to imagine, note it to yourself, but without getting angry or frustrated that it is wandering. Also note if you are feeling an emotion, such as happy, sad, excited or bored. After you have been sitting (or lying) for awhile, you might notice that you are getting stiff, or sore, or feeling warm or cold. Try to take note of those feelings, instead of just reacting to them by moving or stretching. Note them, and gently move your focus back to your breathing. After about ten or 15 minutes, you should slowly open your eyes and gradually get up. Don't worry if you didn't have any great "insights" into the nature of being in your first sessions. Just try to be more aware of your senses and emotions and their impact on you. Try to practice meditation two or three times per day if possible. It is best to practice when you are not tired mentally, so meditating early in the morning is better than late at night. However, if for some reason you can't fall asleep at night, you can try the above exercise to help calm your mind and prepare you for sleep. After you have practiced the above techniques for a few days, try to practice being aware of your senses and emotions when you are in your daily routine. If you are on the bus, close your eyes and note how you are feeling, what you are hearing, how the bus is moving up and down or side to side. When you are working, note the sounds of the various items in the office, the background noise of the air conditioner, the shuffle of your coworkers feet across the carpet, the way you hold your hands and arms when you work. From here, i would highly recommend that you pick up a book on meditation and continue practicing. A good one is the "Meditation for Dummies" book (published by the people who make all those computer books "for Dummies.") And i hope you will come back and visit this dummy often...:-) now the way i was taught does not label sensation... even to hot, cold, rough ect. and because i want to be absolutely precise and in line with the dhamma and because i was taught to switch focus to the nimita and when it habituates and stabilizes use it as a microscope, i wondered what you thought....thanks, henry 16028 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipa.t.thaana, word derivation. Dear Nina, > Dear Jim, I am glad you mention how many versions you are using. I am > impressed by your thoroughness, as always. You do not walk over one night's > ice, as we say in Dutch. Meanwhile I looked into the P.T.S. dictionnary: > upa.t.thitaa sati: presence of mind. > pa.t.thaana: intent contemplation and mindfulness, application of > mindfulness. setting forth, setting up. > Also mentioned here: the four Applications of Mindfulness. > pa.t.thahati: to put down, to provide. > I also looked at kamma.t.thaana: occupation, meditation subject. > I looked up the note in DII, p. 324. It has been said that one should be > mindful in order to understand these terms. Thank-you for taking the time to look up these words and for pointing out the interesting note in the introduction to Rhys Davids' DN 22 translation. > As to the Way the Buddha and disciples went, the third meaning: this is in > the beginning of the sutta itself: the one way leading to the end of dukkha. > We deduct this meaning from the texts. I think it is difficult to find the > three meanings by word derivation alone. The commentarial section on the three meanings takes in the word derivation but I agree that we can't go on that alone but it's a good start. The MN subcommentary goes into more detail and there are some helpful remarks on the prefixes in the anutika to Vbh-a. You can see the 'upa.t.thaana' in the Sanskrit equivalent: 'sm.rtyupasthaana' as found in Buddhist Sanskrit texts. It is possible that the 'u' is elided in the Pali 'satipa.t.thaana'. Another thing I thought of is that sati+pa.t.thaana would normally be written as satippa.t.thaana (at least in a Burmese ed.) with the doubling of the 'p' in the prefix 'pa' but I've yet to see it written that way in any of the texts. > How can Ven. S translate it as the four frames of reference? I think the translation here of the phrase is by Ven. Thanissaro, not by Ven. Soma who translates it as the four arousings of mindfulness. I don't at all agree with Ven. Thanissaro's rendering (reference for sati??). I find Thanissaro's renderings of some words and phrases too way out and distracting for me. I don't at all care for his Unbinding for nibbaana. I prefer the more conservative translations such as those of ~Naa.namoli and B. Bodhi. It may take awhile before I make much headway into the study of the three satipatthaanas as I've only just started to carefully check through all those many versions. At the same time I often get sidetracked by various dsg topics coming up in the discussions on Soma's The Way that are of interest to me. Most recently my attention turned to the meaning and derivation of 'apilaapana' (often translated as non-floating) which is a problem word as the derivation is unclear and I've seen three possibilities so far but I have put this aside for now as I could easily spend days just studying this one word. I think there must be enough material in the Satipatthana Sutta and its commentaries to keep one occupied for years and years. My responses to yours and Sarah's responses on the objects of mindfulness issue will have to wait for a long time. I just don't know enough at this time to respond. Would it be fair to say that the four domains or fields (gocaras) of satipatthana are kaaya, vedanaa, citta, and dhammas? Best wishes, Jim 16029 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 4:38pm Subject: Way 6, Intro cont "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction continued This Middle Way of Mindfulness is clearly not based on revelation, dogmas, nor vacuous beliefs like those in a Supreme Creator God and an Eternal Soul, irrational in the extreme. What is irrational is not the Teaching of the Buddha though it be found in Buddhist Scriptures. On the contrary, "Whatever is well said is the Word of the Buddha," even when it is not the Master's own utterance, because the Blessed One acknowledges Truth wherever and by whomsoever spoken. To raise up the person to a keen sense of awareness in regard to an object and to bring into activity, to call forth, and stir up the controlling faculty, the power, the enlightenment factor and the way factor of mindfulness is the Arousing of Mindfulness designed. Every Arousing of Mindfulness in regard to body feeling, consciousness or a mental object can be considered as a beginning of the road to insight. And so these "arousings" are, in a sense, "starting-points". Further with the Arousing of Mindfulness one wakes up heedfulness, intentness and carefulness, and is in a state of mental preparedness in regard to any work in hand. These Arousings of Mindfulness are many as regards objects but are one in the sense of taking place in a single way of quietude charged with insight that leads to Nibbana. All the four different objects of mindfulness: body, feeling, consciousness and mental objects, have to be understood before one reaches sanctitude. According to character, temperament and cognizing slant, one can make however only one of these the preliminary object of contemplation. It is often the case that owing to a lack of proper understanding of oneself one has to try all objects before one gets to know what suits one best for the preliminary work. The choice is made more difficult by the fact that most of us have no clear-cut natures and are a mixture of a little of every possible human characteristic. In these circumstances there is no alternative to the method of trial and error. But the earnest ones will find their way with persistence and sustained effort. By character there are two types determined by the excess of sensuous qualities of craving, or of the asensuous qualities of abstract beliefs that make up their personality. The craving type is generally extrovert; the other is generally introvert. According to temperament there are those whose mental functioning is slow, those who are languid mentally and those who are mentally keen, the nervous type. But here it must be understood that the terms languid and nervous have no necessary connection with calm and excitement. The nervous often keep cool when the languid fluster. The nervous type is sensitive, but strong and vigorous and keen. The nervous think forcefully and clearly. The languid are sluggish, inert, and weak, unclear, discursive, and often mixed-up in thought. Cognizing slant is either intuitive or intellective. According to character and temperament the body-object is recommended for the languid extravert and the feeling-object for the nervous extrovert. For the languid introvert the consciousness-object is recommended, and for the nervous introvert, mental objects. According to cognizing slant and temperament the body-object is pointed out for the mentally slow who belong to the intuitive kind which makes concentration its vehicle for progress, and for the mentally keen of this kind the feeling-object. For the mentally slow who belong to the intellective kind which makes insight its vehicle the consciousness-object is recommended, and to the mentally keen of this kind the mental object. Further, contemplation on the body destroys the delusion of beauty; that on feeling destroys the delusion of pleasure; contemplation on consciousness dispels the delusion of permanence; and that on mental objects, the delusion of the soul. The person who wishes to practice meditation according to the instruction of the Buddha on the Arousing of Mindfulness should first read the discourse, with the commentary on the synopsis, and get a fair idea of the trend of the teaching. Today, there are still people as of old who learn the discourse by heart as a preparation to practice. Such memorizing is helpful to certain types. But it is not essential. What is essential is to think long and deep on the instruction, until one gets the hang of its application to daily life. Only by repeated reflection on all the implications of it, can the discourse be made an effective instrument of mental culture. The core of the instruction is in the sections dealing with the modes of deportment and clear comprehension. These are intended for all types of aspirants. The commentary on these sections is very important and should be carefully studied. The whole practice of mindfulness depends on the correct grasp of the exercises included in the two parts referred to here. One should then look through the rest of the exercises in the discourse with the help of the commentary to find a preliminary object of concentration or subject of meditation that accords with one's character, temperament and cognizing slant mentioned earlier. If, for instance, one is an extrovert mentally languid or a person whose cognizing slant is intuitive and is temperamentally slow of mind, the contemplation on breathing could well suit that one as a preliminary object. If one finds the explanation given in the commentary to the discourse on mindfulness on any preliminary object one chooses insufficient, one should read the exposition of it in the Path of Purification [Visuddhi Magga] of our commentator. One may if a teacher of Buddhist meditation can be found, also consult him and ask for elucidation of any difficult points connected with meditative practice. Necessary too to be read by all are the portions of the commentary on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, and those on the hindrances, the sense-bases and the factors of Enlightenment (in the contemplation of Mental Objects) which give information on the obstacles and aids to concentration on the preliminary object. 16030 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:37pm Subject: logical Hello all, Picking up a somewhat dated thread I found an interesting section in "Early Madhyamika in India and China," by Richard Robinson. (I'm looking for something intelligible to read on the subject, if there is any such, and just thumbed through this in the library.) It contains a very good account of the tetralemma which is much what was proposed earlier. This is an account of the logic in itself. (In classical logic, recall: A. all x is a E. no x is a I. some x is a O some x is not-a) 1. All x is a. (Simply A.) 2. No x is a. (Simply E.) 3. Some x is a, some x is not-a. (This is the conjunction of I and O; a very plausible reading of what is otherwise a straightforward contradiction.) 4. No x is a and no x is not-a. (So the fourth is seen as the conjunction of the contradictions of the conjuncts of #3: no x is a => some x is a, and no x is not-a => some x is not-a.) Now since no x is not-a = all x is a, the fourth is the conjunction of A and E. This seems to me to be sensible, though a somewhat inferior system to Aristotle's. Since it maps entirely onto the classical syllogistic logic there is no question of third truth values or new types of logic. I, personally, find this comforting. metta, stephen 16031 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] illogical? - Nina in particular Hello Nina, all An alternative point of view, on most everything >Dear Stephen, >We should look at the whole context of the Brahmajala sutta and study such >ways of reasoning people had at that time (and even now). Yes, I think the historical context is very important, and agree that the reasoning then is, necessarily, much as now. (So, e.g., anatta is better seen as not-atta than not-self; what was being denied is clearer that way.) >Ven. Bodhi has a good intro, it is on line. Now, under Doctrines of Endless Equivocation, amaraavikkhepavaada, or eelwriggling, under the fourth case, D: Does >the Tathagata exist after death, not exist, both exist and not exist, neither >exist nor not exist.. >who are endless equivocators resort to evasive statements and endless >equivocation...> To my embarrassment, I can't find this intro. The point of the sutta seems clear, though why the Buddha didn't answer concerning the Tathagata after death is not, actually, entirely clear to me. It's not a view, one supposes, in his case; he knows. Would it not be an incentive, say to Malunkhyaputta (and me) to simply say such and such is the case? It doesn't seem beside the point; but then I want answers to all those questions he asked myself ;-) >In the Cula Malunkyasutta, the Buddha does not answer such questions, it >is endless equivocation. There is birth, aging, dying... He points to the >goal. We should not forget the essence of his teaching: he taught the four >noble Truths. Oh, all right. And how can we learn what dukkha is? It is the arising and >falling away of nama and rupa, each moment. No, not really. It's the *attachment* to the rising a falling. Not the khandha but the upadanakkhandas. >How can this be realized? By >first knowing precisely what nama is, what rupa is: a reality to be >experienced one at a time through one of the six doors, at this very moment. No, even if one could experience this, and even if this distinction is real, it wouldn't make any real difference or provide insight. What's needed is insight into one's clinging (through vipassana, one supposes); there's nothing wrong with namarupa in itself. Such knowledge (of sense-data), if any, would miss the picture. >Kom and Larry's dialogue is most important and essential, as Sarah said. >What is a concept, what is a reality. A concept is that which makes known, >thus, a name, or the idea that is made known. Yes, exactly: that which makes known. Without a concept nothing is known; all seeing is seeing-as. All perception is theory laden. Everything is 'merely' conceptualized. (Now if you're going to tell me that nama-pannatti is that which makes known and I'm misusing the definition..., but I'm doing so on purpose.) >We should not confuse >concepts with thinking. Thinking itself is real and it can think of what >is real or what is not real but what is a concept. This is an odd use of the word "thinking." I think in words all the time. >I hope this clarifies, Well, you gave it a good shot. What can one do about those obdurate types? >best wishes from Nina. >P.S. I do not like the taste of chocolate. WHAT!? Now in this case you're clearly, outrageously WRONG. Chocolate is utterly delicious! Before I get too carried away objecting ;-) metta, stephen 16032 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 6:32pm Subject: Re: logical Hi Stephen, Here are some random (perhaps related) thoughts. Consider the statement "The cup is on the table" as "X". "NOT X" will be "The cup is not on the table". The union of "X" and "NOT X" is the sample space, in other words, "The cup is either on the table or it is not on the table". The intersection of "X" and "NOT X" is the null set, in other words, "The cup cannot be both on the table and not on the table" Now the results of this symbolic logic are only true for *ONE INSTANT IN TIME*. This morning, my coffee cup has been both on the table and off the table (though never both at the same time). How can we use a tool (logic) that is so limited (only valid at one time) to explore issues that are time-independent such as ethics? I have been pondering over this question for almost thirty years... this led me to abandon the study of Decartes, Kant and other western philosophers (they were heavily into "logic") and look for another perspective. Eventually that led me to Buddhism (I have to watch myself and make sure that I keep generally to the topic of Buddhism or risk incurring the wrath of the moderators :-) ). I have the feeling that Buddhism focuses less on logic (Stcherbatsky notwithstanding) than on direct experience (Howard's beloved phenomenology). What is your opinion on this? I also want to revert to the original reason that I rasied this issue. I am (still) preparing a class showing how ancient Buddhism is still relevant (perhaps even more relevant) in these days of modern science. Traditional science says that existence is a "yes" or "no" thing; a duality. Modern science (quantum theory) says existence is a "probability wave" thing and rejects both the "yes" and the "no" extremes. I want to show that the Suttas are not in conflict with modern science. In an earlier message, you quoted a Sutta as mentioning the Buddha rejected both extremes of "existence" and "non- existence" (and that you found that Sutta to be confusing). Which Sutta was that? Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., oreznoone@a... wrote: > Hello all, > > Picking up a somewhat dated thread I found an interesting section in "Early > Madhyamika in India and China," by Richard Robinson. (I'm looking for > something intelligible to read on the subject, if there is any such, and just > thumbed through this in the library.) It contains a very good account of the > tetralemma which is much what was proposed earlier. This is an account of the > logic in itself. > > (In classical logic, recall: > A. all x is a > E. no x is a > I. some x is a > O some x is not-a) > > 1. All x is a. (Simply A.) > 2. No x is a. (Simply E.) > 3. Some x is a, some x is not-a. (This is the conjunction of I and O; a very > plausible reading of what is otherwise a straightforward contradiction.) > 4. No x is a and no x is not-a. (So the fourth is seen as the conjunction of > the contradictions of the conjuncts of #3: no x is a => some x is a, and no x > is not-a => some x is not-a.) > Now since no x is not-a = all x is a, the fourth is the conjunction of A and > E. > > This seems to me to be sensible, though a somewhat inferior system to > Aristotle's. Since it maps entirely onto the classical syllogistic logic > there is no question of third truth values or new types of logic. I, > personally, find this comforting. > metta, stephen 16033 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: logical Hi Stephen and Rob, I don't have the slightest idea what you guys are talking about but the base of neither perception nor non-perception is an example of the fourth "lemma." Larry 16034 From: Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 7:25pm Subject: Re: logical ...just a quick afterthought, The tetralemma was used by the Buddha, though I found the best account in a book concerning Madhyamika, which also used this method. It came up originally in a discussion of the Culamalunkya Sutta (#63 in the MN) in regard to its application to the state of a Tathagata after death. I think that the use of this logical system is interesting in itself, and could possibly shed some light on its use in the Suttas. Here's an interesting reference: "He [Nagarjuna] deployed a tetralemmic logic already adopted by Buddha in the early Pali texts (such as in the Brahmajala-sutta, Digha-Nikaya I). In the Pali tradition, the use of the Tetralemma is initially attributed to Sañjaya, a skeptical teacher whose students challenged Buddha early in Buddha's teaching career. Two of Sañjaya's students, Upatissa and Kolita, were won over, and went on to become two of Buddha's most important disciples, better known in the Buddhist tradition by the names Sariputta and Moggallana. It is possible that it was they who introduced the tetralemmic method to Buddhism." (http://www.human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp/~acmuller/yogacara/thinkers/nagarjuna-bio -uni.htm) Sorry for any confusion that a Mahayana logical system was being discussed, though it became that, eventually, as well. If anyone thinks that the tetralemma changed, or had a different use in the Suttas, I'd be quite interested in hearing how. metta, stephen 16035 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: logical Hi Stephen, I sympathised very easily with Larry’s comment about your first post;-) many thanks for the clarification and touching base with the sutta references;-)) Logical? Illogical? --- oreznoone@a... wrote: > . > the Pali tradition, the use of the Tetralemma is initially attributed to > > Sañjaya, a skeptical teacher whose students challenged Buddha early in > Buddha's teaching career. > Sorry for any confusion that a Mahayana logical system was being > discussed, > though it became that, eventually, as well. If anyone thinks that the > tetralemma changed, or had a different use in the Suttas, I'd be quite > interested in hearing how. ======================= As Nina mentioned before, in the suttas it falls under the Doctrines of Endless Equivocation (amaaavikkhepavaada) as discussed in the Brahmajala Sutta. “It does not die, thus it is endless (amaraa, lit. ‘immortal’). What is this? the view and speech of this theorist, which go on hedging without limits. ‘Equivocation’ (vikkhepa): tossing back and forth in diverse ways (vividha khepa). ‘Endless equivocation’: equivocation through endless views and speech.” ***** In the commentaries, we read about a number of queries regarding these and other comments (p165f, B.Bodhi transl). This is one of them which I’m quoting as it mentions Sanjaya: “Query: Isn’t it true that insofar as he takes a stand on the side of equivocation, he makes a positive affirmation of the equivocal position? Reply: No, because he is utterly deluded about that as well, and because the doctrine of equivocation occurs only by way of rejection. For example, when Sanjaya Belatthaputta was asked by King Ajatasattu about an immediately visible fruit of recluseship, he equivocated by repudiating the triad of views on the world beyond, etc.” ***** As I mentioned in an earlier post, we read in this sutta that all wrong views are contained within the net of the 62 views elaborated: “Whatever recluses or brahmins, bhikkhus, are speculators about the past, or speculators about the future, or speculators about the past and the future together, hold settled views about the past and the future, and assert various conceptual theorems referring to the past and the future, all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds, or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.” From the subcommentary we read further: “Therefore, those doctrines which are found in the Samannaphala Sutta (D.2) and in various other suttas, such as the doctrines of the moral ineficacy of action (akiriyavaada), or moral acausality (ahetukavaada), of nihilism (natthikavaada) etc, as well as the speculative views about God (issara), the Lord of Creation (pajaapati), the Primordial Spirit (purisa), time (kaala), nature (sabhaava), fate (niyati), chance (yadicchaa), etc found outside the suttas - all of these should be included and comprised in these three groups.” Referring to this paragraph a little later: “By the first ‘etc’ (after nihilism above), the doctrines of the Niganthas (the Jains) and others are included. Although the doctrine of Nataputta (Mahavira) has come down in the texts by way of the ‘fourfold restraint’ (caatuyaamasa.mvara), nevertheless, because of the evasiveness involved in its method of the sevenfold predicable, it is included in the doctrine of endless equivocation, just as Sanjaya’s doctrine is.” ***** Stephen, if you don’t already have a copy, please order the Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries from BPS. There is a lot more detail than I can type out here. I think you would also find the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy transl by Aung & Rhys Davids)) and its commentary (The Debates commentary transl by Bimala Law) from PTS very interesting and readable in spite of being abhidhamma texts;-) Hope this helps a little. Sarah === 16036 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] not new but here again. Hi Derick, --- wink_1000 wrote: > Hello all. > > I used to be here on the list, and then I went away and now I am back > again. This time I managed to join the group without first insulting > it on other e-mail lists. So I've made progress! :-) > > Anyway. I'm looking forward to your posts. .... Thanks for letting us know. Very glad to see you back too - hope this time you don't get 'blown away' by all the ‘hardcore’ dhamma;-) For those who are new of don’t remember you, I’ve retrieved your intro (hope you don’t mind): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m325.html You also wrote the following post which I really liked - and the questions were very much to the point. Rob M will find the last paragraph of particular interest as he’s expressed just the same sentiments about the DSG homepage;-): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m589.html I’d be glad to hear if you have the same questions and we’re all pretty used to ‘direct’ or ‘ouspoken’. Best wishes, Sarah p.s Nina just wrote a long series on anapanasati. Much of it is in (or will soon be in) the Useful Posts and you may wish to look at it. There will also be plenty more discussion from all sides when we get to the section on breath in the Satipatthana Sutta discussions. ============================================= 16037 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:14am Subject: When a being has laid down this body Dear Group, "The last citta of th previous life is succeeded by the first citta of this life." ADL Ch. 10 'The first citta in life' I've been reading in the Samyutta Nikaya p. 1393 Salayatanavagga 'The Debating Hall' with Vacchagotta talking to the Blessed One about Rebirth. "Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?" "When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the wind is its fuel." "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?" "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel." What could this mean? Isn't rebirth instantaneous? Is there somewhere in between? Is this the same as when some talk about 'Bardo'. Doesn't it seem that the Buddha says there is a period in between death and rebirth? metta, Christine 16038 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:00am Subject: Re: When a being has laid down this body Dear Group, And a friend just sent me this quote: "Majjhima Nikaya 9 'Sammaditthi Sutta' The Discourse on Right View "There are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and FOR THE SUPPORT OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE." It sounds like they must be hanging about 'somewhere' ... http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/mn009.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > "The last citta of th previous life is succeeded by the first citta > of this life." ADL Ch. 10 'The first citta in life' > > I've been reading in the Samyutta Nikaya p. 1393 Salayatanavagga 'The > Debating Hall' with Vacchagotta talking to the Blessed One about > Rebirth. > "Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some > distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that > occasion?" > "When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I > declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the > wind > is its fuel." > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > be its fuel on that occasion?" > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For > on that occasion craving is its fuel." > > What could this mean? Isn't rebirth instantaneous? Is there somewhere > in between? Is this the same as when some talk about 'Bardo'. > Doesn't it seem that the Buddha says there is a period in between > death and rebirth? > > metta, > Christine 16039 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi, Christine - In a message dated 10/2/02 6:15:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > "The last citta of th previous life is succeeded by the first citta > of this life." ADL Ch. 10 'The first citta in life' > > I've been reading in the Samyutta Nikaya p. 1393 Salayatanavagga 'The > Debating Hall' with Vacchagotta talking to the Blessed One about > Rebirth. > "Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some > distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that > occasion?" > "When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I > declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the > wind > is its fuel." > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > be its fuel on that occasion?" > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For > on that occasion craving is its fuel." > > What could this mean? Isn't rebirth instantaneous? Is there somewhere > in between? Is this the same as when some talk about 'Bardo'. > Doesn't it seem that the Buddha says there is a period in between > death and rebirth? > > metta, > Christine > ============================= This is an excellent observation you make. Peter Harvey also references this in his book The Selfless Mind to support the claim that the original Buddhadhamma as expressed in the Sutta Pitaka, contrary to Theravada, does countenance intermediate states (Tibetan 'bardo') between realms of existence/experience. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16040 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Dear Christine, Regarding your questions on the following: > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > be its fuel on that occasion?" > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET BEEN > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For > on that occasion craving is its fuel." I think the problem lies in the translation. The Pali for "A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY" is: ima~nca kaaya.m nikkhipati satto . . . -- S IV 400 'nikkhapati' is a verb in the present tense: lays down, is laying down (this body). Note that B. Bodhi (the translator?) has translated it in the past tense: has laid down. The commentary (Spk III 114) explains "HAS NOT (YET) BEEN REBORN" (anuppanno) in this way: "has not arisen" -- has not arisen owing to the (yet) non-arisen state of the birth-consciousness (pa.tisandhicittassa) at the death-moment (cutikkha.ne). Woodward translates the line in question as: "At the time, Vaccha, when a being lays aside this body and rises up again in another body . . ." -- GS iv 281 Here there is a problem with "and rises up again in another body" where 'rises up again' is the opposite of 'has not yet been reborn' in Bodhi's translation. Regarding the following MN 9 (M i 48) passage from your next post: "There are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and FOR THE SUPPORT OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE." "OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE" (Pali: sambhavesino pl.). The commentary (Ps i 207) gives a detailed explanation. In the case of the egg-born and the womb-born they refer to beings still inside the egg or the womb before hatching out or parturition. An explanation is also given for the moisture-born and the spontaneously-arisen (with the first citta of the new existence but not so with the next citta and afterwards). Best wishes, Jim 16041 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipa.t.thaana, word derivation. Dear Jim, Thank you for the further info. I meant Ven. Thanissaro, difficult to follow him. op 01-10-2002 18:11 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > My responses to yours and Sarah's responses on the objects of > mindfulness issue will have to wait for a long time. I Would it be fair to say that the four > domains or fields (gocaras) of satipatthana are kaaya, vedanaa, citta, > and dhammas? N: Exactly. I am also thinking of the Sutta on the falcon and the warning that the monk should keep to his own range: the four satipatthanas. In the dict. PTS, gocara: pasture, range and also object, sense object. Like visaya: locality, realm, range, and also object. Best wishes, Nina. 16042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 10:00am Subject: Intro by Ven. Soma Dear Sarah and all, Ven. Soma, as you say, has given us a great gift by his translation. But there are some points we are wondering about. We can notice that he stresses very much: virtue, and this first, and also tranquillizing concentration. It is understandable that he writes in this way because he is a monk. The monk's life is different from the laylife. The monk should live as an arahat. He should carefully observe the monk's sila and if he transgresses he should confess this and make amends. Also he leads a life where there is more opportunity for Samatha. When people read this Intro they may believe that satipatthana as like a meditation you have to do in quiet. But the Buddha also taught to laypeople. Everybody can apply his teachings in his own situation. Laypeople do not have to live like monks in order to develop satipatthana. Here are just a few thoughts, Nina. 16043 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Dear Howard, Jim and All, Howard, thank you for your post. I would be very interested if you have the time to see if Prof. Harvey has anything of significance to say about 'something' that exists between births. Does he come to any conclusions himself, as to the likelihood or otherwise of a 'something' waiting in a 'somewhere' for 'sometime' after death and before rebirth? ( I wonder about what 'form' it would take in between births in very different Planes; how long it would be there and what it would do while there). And I also wonder how this would integrate with what I have been taught about the absolute anatta-ness of everything. Thank you, Jim. I hope I don't have to annoy you in dribs and drabs of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don't remember noticing this topic before, and now it seems to be popping up everywhere. I sometimes wonder if I should try to learn Pali - would it take years to become proficient even at a beginner stage? The University of Qld does run Introductory and Advanced courses in Pali in its Studies in Religion School (presented only in the day time though -and the Hospital can't quite be brought to the understanding of the benefit in granting me study leave for Pali - even in a multi-cultural area.:). It is just frustrating to be in the power of the Translators and not even know if they themselves are in error. Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is a crucially important matter don't you think? Not just whether a Pali word means 'dark green' or 'aquamarine', or whether a comma or a semi-colon should have been used. I am very grateful that you (and others on the list) are able to throw some additional light on the Scriptures and translations. In another Sutta, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta 'The Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving' - the Blessed One is demolishing the 'pernicious view' of Sati (I always feel so sorry for Sati). There does seem here to be a mention of a being-in-waiting ... In the section (The Round of Existence: Conception to Maturity) the Buddha says "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place through the union of three things. Here, there is union of the mother and father, but it not the mother's season, and THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case there is not conception of an embryo in a womb. Here, there is the union of the mother and father, and it is the mother's season, BUT THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS NOT PRESENT - in this case too there is no conception of an embryo in a womb. But when there is a union of the mother and father and it is the mother's season, AND THE BEING TO BE REBORN IS PRESENT, THROUGH THE UNION OF THESE THREE THINGS THE CONCEPTION OF AN EMBRYO IN A WOMB TAKES PLACE." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > This is an excellent observation you make. Peter Harvey also > references this in his book The Selfless Mind to support the claim that the > original Buddhadhamma as expressed in the Sutta Pitaka, contrary to > Theravada, does countenance intermediate states (Tibetan 'bardo') between > realms of existence/experience. > > With metta, > Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Regarding your questions on the following: > > > "And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has > not > > yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to > > be its fuel on that occasion?" > > "WHEN, VACCHA, A BEING HAS LAID DOWN THIS BODY BUT HAS NOT YET > BEEN > > REBORN IN ANOTHER BODY, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. > For > > on that occasion craving is its fuel." <<>> 16044 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is > a crucially important matter don't you think? I am going to play devil's advocate here and take an opposing view. "Instantaneous rebirth" or "non-Instantaneous rebirth" does not impact kamma, four noble truths, eightfold noble path, paticcasamuppada or any of the "core" teachings of the Buddha. Why make it an issue? Tissa was reborn as a flea for seven days because he was attached to his robe. Following that, he was again reborn as a deva in Tusita heaven. Unlike the deva planes (and higher), the four woeful planes and the human plane have indefinite lifespans. Why can't we be born in one of these planes for a short time and then be reborn into another plane due to our reserve (katatta) kamma? Thanks, Rob M :-) 16045 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:17pm Subject: Way 7, Intro cont "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Introduction continued In concentration of any preliminary object, say the breath, if any feeling or thought that interferes with concentration arises, then one should contemplate on that interfering phenomenon in a manner that accords to the exposition on feeling, consciousness, the hindrances, or the sense-bases, in the commentary, until the interference disappears and then revert to the preliminary object. Similarly, when attending to the preliminary object, any over-activeness or slackness present should be overcome by the method taught in the exposition on the factors of Enlightenment in the commentary and then there will be steady work possible on the object of concentration. It is useful to bear in mind that either the favorable or the unfavorable qualities increase by pondering over them and decrease by the turning away of attention from them. In beginning to practice mindfulness, one has to become aware of one's actions, speech and thoughts, and drive these towards good as a cow-herd his charge to healthy pastures. It is helpful to get into the habit of preparing the mind before proceeding to act, and to pause a while before initiating new activities. By such practice one learns to act deliberately, consciously, and with circumspection, and not on the spur of the moment, and so does everything prepared to face all consequences, and with a proper sense of responsibility. Wholetime practice of mindfulness consists in the carrying out of each of the three following activities of contemplation at the proper time: attention to the preliminary object of concentration, reflection on the modes of deportment and clear comprehension. When one is not attending to the preliminary object for one good reason or another, one should be reflecting on the modes of deportment, or be doing clear comprehension. Wholetime practice of mindfulness can be carried out by all. There will however be differences to the degree of intensiveness of the practice according to the "busy-ness" of the individual. The more one is busy with external activities, the less time will be at his disposal for attending to the preliminary object, and also for steady reflection on deportment and for penetratively clear comprehension. One should therefore try to cut and also slow down as much as one can, rightly and reasonably, one's external activities. Who reflects on his movements and clearly comprehends states of activity and rest as taught in the commentary has his mind turned towards self-mastery. The preliminary object, however, is the basis of the practice, and is the resort of the aspirant, or the main object and ground of contemplation. The Way of Mindfulness is the objective way of viewing anything whatsoever. It reckons just what is present and stopping the garrulity of one's own mind, lets the objects speak for themselves and unfold their character. Also, by its patient pursuit of the meaning of things, its readiness to see every side of any thought or experience, and by its breadth and tolerance, it predisposes the mind to receive the impressions of truth, induces inner pliancy and the mood of spiritual receptivity, necessary for highest intuition. Since mindfulness is the only way for anyone who wishes inner happiness, men of old, irrespective of the school of thought to which they belonged, underlined the importance of the Buddha's teaching on this point. In his "Friendly Letter," Nagarjuna says: "The Happy One (Sugata) said that the only way to be walked on is mindfulness directed bodywards; therefore keep to it resolutely; for if mindfulness is lacking, all good Dhamma) decays." And Santideva in his Bodhicaryavatara says: "If the mind, the tusker maddened with passion, is bound completely with the rope of mindfulness, then all perils disappear and all blessings come into being." In the Theravada countries of South-East Asia, the Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness is well-known and much appreciated. Especially so is it in Burma today, where monk and layman go from time to time into solitude for training along this Way, under the guidance of some "meditation-master". In Burmese meditation monasteries each meditator is given a separate cell. He is not allowed to speak to any but the meditation master during the time of training. No books and no repetition of formulae are permitted. The business of the meditator is to keep mindfulness going during the whole of the waking state. Making his inhalations and exhalations the basic subject of meditation, he has to be mindful of his postures, completely aware of his behavior (going forwards etc.) and to attend to his feelings, thoughts and ideas as they arise, according to the instructions of the meditation master. Seldom does a stretch of hard training extend over a month. The aim of the meditation master is to lessen the conceptualizing proclivities of the pupil and lead him towards appreciating the "nature of the thing". This he does by encouraging bare or pure mindfulness, and letting transcience and the other characteristics of the mental and bodily objects become clear by dint of concentrated attention, because true understanding of reality must in the last resort be based on profound personal experience. Otherwise it cannot change the character of the meditator in that final and irrevocable way of Arahantship contemplated by this method. The meditation master does not load the pupil's mind with all the many particulars found in the commentary but selects what is just necessary for each pupil's progress and instructs accordingly. Continued practice of the arousings of mindfulness instills into the meditator the habit of systematic or proper attention (yoniso manasikara) regarding the details of a thing, and accustoms him to test all phenomena for their inherent characteristics of transience and so forth. Thus he gradually learns to turn away from the worldling's view of things and look at them by way of condition, cause, dependent origination, element etc., and becomes, in spirit, one with the Dhamma. The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness is one among the discourses often repeated by Buddhists and its traditional importance is seen further by its use as the viaticum to support one passing away from this life to another. The use of it as a death-bed discourse points out that mindfulness besides being one of the foremost qualities needed for holy living, is also a quality that makes for holy dying. Truly, a first and last thing. Soma Thera 16046 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 7, Intro cont ST: "Nagarjuna says: "The Happy One (Sugata) said that the only way to be walked on is mindfulness directed bodywards; therefore keep to it resolutely; for if mindfulness is lacking, all good Dhamma) decays."" L: I think this should read: the only way [for the path] to be walked on... Larry 16047 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:50pm Subject: Way 8, sutta Dear group, The next section of the book is the sutta. Since it would be premature to discuss it why don't we say everyone read the entire sutta (maybe several times) and we will begin the commentary monday evening, my time? Also you may be interested in comparing translations if you have time. Larry http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html 16048 From: Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:31pm Subject: Re: logical Hello Rob, >How can we use a tool (logic) that is so limited (only valid at one >time) to explore issues that are time-independent such as ethics? My first inclination is to say I disagree, perhaps with a reference to kamma: act/cetana now, result/vipaka later. All are actions are in time. But what do you mean? It's sometimes held that logical / mathematical statements are outside of time, just the opposite. (And the temporal status of logical truths creates problems: If it's true that you will brush your teeth tomorrow morning then isn't it determined? You have to, if it's true. There's something wrong here but it's not so easy to say what. I think it's related to what you're saying.) >I have the feeling that Buddhism focuses less on logic (Stcherbatsky >notwithstanding) than on direct experience (Howard's beloved >phenomenology). What is your opinion on this? Well, not phenomenology, but yes, direct experience. Still, there's a point in discussing logic, among other things. Philosophy texts often begin with a chapter on logic or critical thinking. What are the canons of reasoning, what kinds of evidence should be accepted. This seems to center almost entirely on the Kalama sutta these days but there's more to it. >In an earlier message, you quoted a Sutta as >mentioning the Buddha rejected both extremes of "existence" and "non- >existence" (and that you found that Sutta to be confusing). Which >Sutta was that? I almost have it in my head; is that helpful? It'll flash on me then I'll see if I can't find on online source. And a wonderful commentary so you won't be misled into some third reality beyond the real and unreal ;-) metta, stephen 16049 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] When a being has laid down this body Dear Christine, > Thank you, Jim. I hope I don't have to annoy you in dribs and drabs > of quotes from the Suttas about this. It is just that I don't > remember noticing this topic before, and now it seems to be popping > up everywhere. I sometimes wonder if I should try to learn Pali - > would it take years to become proficient even at a beginner stage? Yes, I think so from my own experience but any amount of learning however small can be of help. I first came into contact with Buddhism in 1970 and became interested in the Pali language in 1973 but it wasn't until 1976 after I had bought a well-worn second hand copy of Warder's Introduction to Pali (which incidentally contains a line in Ven. H. Saddhatissa's own handwriting) that I then decided that it was time to begin and ever since -- learning and reading Pali continues to be of primary interest to me. And looking back now, I think it was one of the best decisions I ever made. No regrets here! > The University of Qld does run Introductory and Advanced courses in > Pali in its Studies in Religion School (presented only in the day > time though -and the Hospital can't quite be brought to the > understanding of the benefit in granting me study leave for Pali - > even in a multi-cultural area.:). I didn't learn Pali by taking courses at a university although I had seriously considered doing so. The only Pali teacher I studied (briefly) with was a Sinhalese student of Prof. Warder in 1980 who was doing his Ph.D. and most of the learning has been done on my own with the help of a growing collection of Pali books. The self-taught way has worked fine for me although it's probably a much slower way as one just goes at the pace desired and without the pressure of homework assignments. The important thing is to nurture the interest and keep it alive, the rest will follow. > It is just frustrating to be in > the power of the Translators and not even know if they themselves are > in error. This is where a knowledge of Pali comes in handy as you can check the translations with the Pali originals and look up stuff in the commentaries, most of which still remain untranslated into English. > Whether there is a being, and a period between births, is > a crucially