16400 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 13, Comm. Hi Rob K, A quick little butting in: --- rjkjp1 wrote: > --- > Dear Nina, > Just one question , I don't have access to any pali texts right now. > What is the pali for 'proximate cause"? > with respect > Robert ... "Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause. Thus wherever we speak of characteristics, etc, their mutual difference should be understood in this wise." Atthasalini transl PTS p84 In an earlier post I questioned the use of 'proximate cause' for rupas, but I was mistaken and Rob M and Brian are discussing these and I just assume it is the same word used. Eg "Herein primary materiality is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements; but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause." Vism, XIV,35 ***** As I understand pada.t.thaana literally means 'footprint' from pada-foot. Now I understand better the use of 'footing' in the PTS Netti transl which you also have. 'footing' is translated from pada.t.thaana as in: " 'Investigate yourselves, launch out' are the footing for energy. (The words) 'Devote yourselves in the Enlightened One's Dispensation' are the footing for concentration. (The words) 'Scatter the armies of Mortality as does an elephant a hut of reeds' are the footing for understanding...."(Netti, 40 p65 in transl) ..... Also under the "Mode of conveying Footings"(Netti, 104 p140 in transl): " 'So let his cognizance be guarded': this is the footing for the three kinds of good conduct. 'Having for pasture right intention': this is the footing for quiet. 'Giving right view first place': this is the footing for insight. 'Through knowing rise and fall: this is the footing for the plane of seeing (as the path of Stream Entry). 'Transcending drowsing and lethargy a bhikkhu may': this is the footing for energy. 'Abandon all bad destinations': this is the footing for keeping in being (as the attainment of the three higher paths)." ***** Nina, Jim or others may add further details or corrections. Sarah ====== 16401 From: rikpa21 Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:29pm Subject: On Wisdom Hello fellow DSG'ers, I found this note on wisdom (taken from the Tripitika) from Prof. Richard Hayes appropriate and worthy of wise consideration: "Now as long as we are on the topic of wisdom, let's make it clear that according to the Buddha (as reported in Nandamaanavapucchaa in the Sutta-nipaata) wisdom has nothing whatsoever to do with what one believes. It has nothing at all to do with what one has experienced or how one has experienced it, nothing to do with what one has learnt or how much one has learnt or from whom one has learnt it, and nothing to do with what one has thought about and figured out by oneself. Moreover, wisdom has nothing to do with which vows one has taken or what rituals one performs. "If wisdom is none of these, asks Nanda, then what is it? The Buddha replies that wisdom consists in letting go of worldviews, letting go of traditions and teachings, letting go of rituals and obsessions about which actions are pure and which impure, and letting go of all the internal poisons. Wisdom, he goes on to say, is living in seclusion, not depending in any way on the approval of the rest of society. In other places in the Sutta-nipaata, the Buddha says that wisdom consists in "disarming", that is, letting go of all cudgels, swords and sticks (and, I would guess, uzi machine guns, AK-47 assault rifles, handguns, armoured tank divisions, vials of weapon-grade infectious diseases and nuclear bombs) and beholding all living beings with the same love that a mother has for her only child." 16402 From: Sarah Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hi Brian, --- Brian Kelley wrote: Thank you for all your comments and apologies for snipping most. > Yes, exactly. Knowing realities as they occur. .... You’ll also like this quote from Nyanaponika in ‘Abhidhamma Studies’: > The study of the Abhidhamma should therefore not be allowed > to degenerate into a mere collecting, counting, and arranging of such > conceptual labels. This would make of Abhidhamma study - though, of > course, not of the Abhidhamma itself - just one more among the many > intellectual "playthings" that serve as an escape from facing > reality, or as a "respectable excuse" with which to evade the hard > inner work needed for liberation. A merely abstract and conceptual > approach to the Abhidhamma may also lead to that kind of intellectual > pride that often goes together with specialized knowledge. ***** Having quoted that, I personally find it very helpful as you’re doing, to consider the details and true nature of paramattha dhammas. For example, to understand a little more about all phenomena as elements (dhatu) helps to lessen the attachment to an idea of self: (Sammohavinodani transl 1760) "Likewise the eye is the eye element; the visible datum is the visible datum element; the seeing is the eye-consciousness element; the state associated therewith beginning with feeling are the mental-datum element. In this way "looking towards and looking away" is stated in terms of these four elements. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person looks away?" ***** Here’s another reference with ‘proximate cause’ from an earlier post of mine: ..... > The Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 318) and the Visuddhimagga > (XIV, 54) both give the following definition of visible object: > > Visible object has the characteristic of striking the eye, the > function of being the object of eye-sense consciousness, the > manifestation of being the field of visual cognition and the four > Great Elements as proximate cause. ..... All rupas depend on the 4 Great Elements. These 4 along with visible object, odour, flavour and nutritive essence cannot be separated and constitute the smallest unit (kalapa) of rupas. Without the 4 principle or primary rupas, the other 24 derived rupas could not therefore arise, so all other rupas are dependent on them. ***** > Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to introduce myself. My name is Brian Kelley. > My wife, > Gini, and I live in a rural area of northeastern New York state, in the > foothills of > the Adirondack mountains. Before this introduction to the Abhidhamma, > my > primary area of study has been the Sutta Pitaka. For the past few > years, my > meditation practice has focused on anapanasati and cultivating metta. I > > frequently attend retreats at the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies in > Barre, > Massachusetts (about 3 and a half hours away from where we live). The > focus at BCBS is to integrate scholarly understanding and meditative > insight. ..... It sounds like a nice area and convenient for your retreats. I expect you’ll also have a chance to visit B.Bodhi in New Jersey soon if you wish. ..... > Thanks so much for letting this yogi eavesdrop on your discussions. > ..... A pleasure indeed < more smiles>. May I say that I particularly appreciate your positive and kind attitude with regard to sharing dhamma. Sarah ==== 16403 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] One Sure Way Hi Mo, > From: "Michael Olds" .... I’m glad to read your well-considered points and to hear from you again on DSG (even if indirectly. I am quite sure I cannot emulate Ananda's role, but am happy to give a few wordling comments;-): ...... > A: "N: No, usually the fivefold, sometimes sixfold. The three > abstinences > arise together when the Path is lokuttara, then it is eightfold." > > How does this square with the fact that the fourth of the Satipatthanas, > regarding things from the viewpoint of the Dhamma, culminates in > regarding > things from the viewpoint of the Four Truths (and in the case of the > MahaSatipatthana, the Eightfold Path), and the Four Truths is identical > with Samma Ditthi which includes, as it's fourth element, the Eightfold > Path? ..... I would re-phrase this to suggest that the fourth of the satipatthanas (dhammanupassana) includes all realities such as the cetasikas (apart from vedana) not included in the other 3 satipatthanas as well as all realities under various classifications such as the khandhas. These dhammas are the objects of Samma Ditthi and other kusala mental factors - not viewpoints. When these wholesome qualities, led indeed by samma ditthi, have been fully developed, the Four Truths are realized. As you suggest, this is the ‘culmination’ of satipatthana. As you say, the fourth Truth is the Eightfold Path, but we cannot say the Truths are identical with samma ditthi. ..... > Or, alternatively, if, as it is said here, only the five-fold or sixfold > path is intended, how does this statement square with the fact that this > too > includes Samma Ditthi which includes the Four Truths which includes as > it's > fourth, the Eightfold path. ..... While satipatthana is being developed, the 5 (or 6 at moments of one of the 3 abstinences)fold path is intended, including samma ditthi, but not lokuttara samma ditthi which realizes nibbana and is accompanied by the 7 other Path factors at that moment. ..... > Seeing this, one can see that even if one limits one's "Path" to the one > step, Samma Ditthi, there is sufficient scope to that to take one to the > goal. ..... Samma ditthi has to be assisted by the other path factors; at each moment of samma ditthi, there is also s.sankappa, s.vayama, s.sati and s.samadhi accompanying it. Agreed about the leadership role of s.ditthi. ..... > Again, from another angle, the Satipatthanas are not practiced in > sequence, > but describe a sequence of experiences that evolve into each other so > that, > for example, seeing that one's own body is of precisely the same nature > as > a > decaying corpse, if it is, in fact seen that way, implies seeing sense > experience (vedana), emotions (cita), and the Dhamma, and is at lease a > small taste of Nibbana here and now. ..... Agreed that the Satipatthanas are not a ‘sequence’. Different namas and rupas have to be known over and over again as elements, as phenomena, not self. I agree that as understanding develops of various paramattha dhammas, it becomes apparent that others (not yet experienced) are of the same nature: i.e elements, not-self, impermanent etc. Seeing one’s body ‘as a decaying corpse’ may be just thinking, not understanding of rupas directly. It depends. It may be a moment of samatha which is kusala but not the same as satipatthana. I don’t think we can say that moments of understanding or satipatthana are a ‘small taste o Nibbana here and now’, however. ..... > The way this business of a worldly path and a super-worldly path is > being > understood is off track. Taking just the Satipatthana, which is only one > example, and granting that one who is just beginning, begins from the > worldly path, following the Satipatthana to it's conclusion one arrives > at > The Four Truths which ends in the Magga, which ends with Samma Samadhi, > which ends with Upekkha which, when seen as freedom and when freedom is > seen > as freedom (that is, when the situation has been made conscious), is a > synonym for Nibbana. ..... I don’t think I follow. If there is a moment of satipatthana now, there must be samma ditthi accompanied by samma samadhi at a beginning level. This mundane or worldly path must be accompanied by detachment from the start. ..... > If a path leads to the goal, how can it be regarded as worldly? > It cannot. It is only the attitude of individuals towards that path that > can > be distinguished as worldly or not. (Sariputta does not say: "There is a > worldly path and an Unworldly Path"; he says "there is a taking on of > the > Path which is Worldly and there is a taking on of the Path which is > unworldly," and he goes on to describe it as a matter of attitude.) ..... I agree it depends on the attitude or rather the understanding at any given time. Still, I think the wordly path refers to the path of developing understanding of the truths as opposed to the supramundane path moments which realize nibbana. Even those who have attained levels of enlightenment, the sekkha, are still ‘in training’. Understanding and the other noble qualities continue to develop. ..... >If one > approaches the dhamma, attaining step-by-step each of it's > accomplishments, > with the idea of gain (fame, power, status, etc.) then one has walked > the > worldly path; if at each level of progress one does not exalt the self > or > disparage others but simply evaluates the situation for what it is, > seeing > that there is more to be done and setting out for it's accomplishment, > then > one is walking the path of the Higher Dhamma. ..... At moments of concern with worldly conditions or any other akusala, I don’t understand that any path (mundane or supramundane) is being followed . This can be referred to as wordly understanding, i.e wrong view, but this shouldn’t be confused with mundane or worldly path in the discussion referred to. Only moments of direct understanding of realities can be considered as moments of satipatthana or path (mundane); not moments of wise reflection or consideration. Mo, you’ve studied parts of the Tipitaka extensively and also Pali, I know. I apologise if I appear to be missing your points at all and would be glad for any further clarification. Let me finish with a quote from the Mulapariyaya Sutta commentary below with reference to the aggamagga or ‘Supreme Path’ . Sarah ===== From the commentary to the Mulapariya Sutta: “...He who fully understands the earth understands it by the three types of full understanding: the full understanding of the known (~naata.pari~n~naa), the full understanding of scrutinization (tiira.napari~n~naa), and the full understanding of abandoning (pahaanapari~n~naa).” “Therein, what is the full understanding of the known? He fully understands the earth element thus: “This is the internal earth element, this the external. This is its characteristic, this its function, manifestation, and proximate cause.” this is full understanding of the known. What is the full understanding by scrutinization? Having known it in this way, he scrutinizes the earth element in forty-two modes as impermanent, suffering, a sickness, etc. this is full undestanding by scrutinization. What is the full understanding by abandoning/ Having scrutinized it in this way, he abandons desire and lust for the earth element through the supreme path (aggamagga). This is full understanding by abandoning. Or , alternatively, the defining of mentality-materiality (naamaruupavavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehension of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity knowledge (anuloma) is the full understanding by scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning.” =========================================== 16404 From: Brian Kelley Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:46am Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Rob, You wrote: > If you are interested in rupas, Nina's book, "Rupas" is excellent: > > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html > I have downloaded it and look forward to reading it with great anticipation. (Unfortunately it has joined a long queue of materials I want to read in the near future -- a line that, the more I read, just seems to keep getting longer, not shorter!) > If you are interested in a concise summary, I have compressed Nina's > book into 12 pages. It will be part of the next update of class > notes in ten days time or if you want it sooner, please send me a > note off-line at rob.moult@j... and I will reply with the > attachment. When I downloaded the .pdf files of your class notes, I had difficulty reading them, because the paali words with diacriticals didn't display correctly. I suspect this is a font issue, or more specifically a cross-platform issue -- I use a Macintosh computer (running Mac OS X, 10.2). I realize that I didn't answer your earlier question, to say more about the project I'm working on. As I mentioned, this is my strategy for beginning to learn and memorize the lists in the CMA, by working with them and constructing a hypertext model based on certain of the charts. The way this works: I've made an html page of the chart of the 28 material phenomena, then for each item, link it to an html page with Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation, and the characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause of each item. I'll do other charts for cetasikas and cittas. The hope is to have them all cross-referenced, so that one can click on any term and be able to get information about related terms. Once all this reference material is ready, my teacher was encouraging me to make an interactive module, in which one could map out a "snapshot" of a mind-moment, taking a real life situation and having the user go through and select which cetasikas, for example, would be present. That's the idea, anyway. With metta, Brian 16405 From: Brian Kelley Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from retreat, 1 & 2 Hi Sarah, Thank you for the quotes from Ven. Nyanaponika and from the Visudhimagga. Very helpful indeed. And may I say how refreshing it is to join a list where the discussions are not only ennobling, but also conducted with gentleness and mutual respect. I apologize for the following lengthy snip: > It sounds like a nice area and convenient for your retreats. I expect > you'll also have a chance to visit B.Bodhi in New Jersey soon if you wish. On the last day of the Abhidhamma retreat, Andy mentioned that Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi has agreed to come up to BCBS to teach a course -- it was speculated that it might even be a longer version of this very Abhidhamma course. I'm very hopeful that, if this does happen, I'll be able to attend. What a marvelous opportunity that would be! With metta, Brian 16406 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] One Sure Way Dear Mike O, Your point of the four noble Truths is certainly not easy to answer, especially the Truth of cessation. We are studying slowly all the Applications. Jim has given me the Pali text and he will give me also the subco. which is very necessary to understand the Co. When we at last come to that point we shall see how to solve this dilemma. When I look in Ven. Soma's Co, just after Way 14 quoted by Larry: <~Nayassa adhigamaaya: For reaching the right Path. The real Eightfold Path is called the right path. `Verily, this preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness made to become (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the Supramundane Way.> I hope this clarifies somewhat. I think it is panna from beginning to end, first, on the level of thinking, then, it grows through direct awareness and understanding of whatever appears through the six doors, one at a time. Sammaditthi is, I believe, not the end, but I think you do not take it as the end. It develops together with the other factors. I am first of all concerned with understanding of what appears now. We can think of lokuttara panna and nibbana, but that is only thinking. It is far off, is it not? I really appreciate your keenness to study. I like your text references, and I shall look at them. I am just now rather busy, so that I cannot go into all your points. They are certainly worth discussuing, and I hope others will join in. If you are not a member of dsg, please join, we need people like you :-) with appreciation, Nina. op 21-10-2002 06:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: Questions from Mo: > > Q: "When arousing of mindfulness is mentioned the 8-fold path is implied. > QUESTION: Does this mean that when satipatthana is practiced the entire > 8-fold path is practiced?" > A: "N: No, usually the fivefold, sometimes sixfold. The three abstinences > arise together when the Path is lokuttara, then it is eightfold." > > How does this square with the fact that the fourth of the Satipatthanas, > regarding things from the viewpoint of the Dhamma, culminates in regarding > things from the viewpoint of the Four Truths (and in the case of the > MahaSatipatthana, the Eightfold Path), and the Four Truths is identical > with Samma Ditthi which includes, as it's fourth element, the Eightfold > Path? > Or, alternatively, if, as it is said here, only the five-fold or sixfold > path is intended, how does this statement square with the fact that this > too > includes Samma Ditthi which includes the Four Truths which includes as > it's > fourth, the Eightfold path. > > Seeing this, one can see that even if one limits one's "Path" to the one > step, Samma Ditthi, there is sufficient scope to that to take one to the > goal. > > Again, from another angle, the Satipatthanas are not practiced in > sequence, > but describe a sequence of experiences that evolve into each other so > that, > for example, seeing that one's own body is of precisely the same nature as > a > decaying corpse, if it is, in fact seen that way, implies seeing sense > experience (vedana), emotions (cita), and the Dhamma, and is at lease a > small taste of Nibbana here and now. > > The way this business of a worldly path and a super-worldly path is being > understood is off track. Taking just the Satipatthana, which is only one > example, and granting that one who is just beginning, begins from the > worldly path, following the Satipatthana to it's conclusion one arrives at > The Four Truths which ends in the Magga, which ends with Samma Samadhi, > which ends with Upekkha which, when seen as freedom and when freedom is > seen > as freedom (that is, when the situation has been made conscious), is a > synonym for Nibbana. > > If a path leads to the goal, how can it be regarded as worldly? > It cannot. It is only the attitude of individuals towards that path that > can > be distinguished as worldly or not. (Sariputta does not say: "There is a > worldly path and an Unworldly Path"; he says "there is a taking on of the > Path which is Worldly and there is a taking on of the Path which is > unworldly," and he goes on to describe it as a matter of attitude.) If one > approaches the dhamma, attaining step-by-step each of it's > accomplishments, > with the idea of gain (fame, power, status, etc.) then one has walked the > worldly path; if at each level of progress one does not exalt the self or > disparage others but simply evaluates the situation for what it is, seeing > that there is more to be done and setting out for it's accomplishment, > then > one is walking the path of the Higher Dhamma. > > Some references: > > See: PTS: Middle Length Sayings, I: #19: Discourse on the Twofold Thought, > pp.148 > PTS: Greater Discourse on the (Ways of) undertaking Dhamma, I.372 > and: Majjhima:114. Sevitabbasevitabba Sutta (Sevitabbaasevitabba), III.45 > Middle Length Sayings: > WP: To Be Cultivated and Not To Be Cultivated, 913 > PTS: Discourse on what is to be Followed and what is not to be Followed, > III.94 16407 From: proctermail Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:46am Subject: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi, Firstly a little introduction - i am Sarah's nephew tom. this is my first real excursion into this site and my buddhist knowledge thin so please forgive any ignorance. My first question is essentially one of practicality : I have found that on occasion, and infact the more it is thought about the more occasions in which instances of it can be found, that the action that is taken is often in conflict with mindfulness - for example, when you clean you often find spiders and spiders webs in your house - to remove these hence possibly killing the spiders and destroying their homes in the process is asserting a selfish notion ie clean over a non selfish one of preserve life and allow things to be. It could I guess be argued that if they died in right mindfulness (a prayer for example) then nothing would be disrupted but... I origianally thought of this ages ago and emailed Sarah about it, but it has developed - hence the time taken to post. The same would apply to gardening - should i let it grow? 16408 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:08pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Dear group, Tom's comments raised the old issues of 'sentient' beings, 'kamma' and 'rebirth' for me once again. It is good to 'hear' from you, Tom. Welcome to dsg. I ask similar questions occasionally. [Do you hear snakes making gulping sounds like your Aunt Sarah? - I was just wondering if it is a genetically inherited talent to attract those rare reptiles? ;-) ] Excerpt from post 12552 "Chris: - Keeping on your good side after the mention of B.Bodhi, I won't mention any scepticism about snakes making a 'gulping' sound. If you say it did Sarah, then it did! This brings up a Dhamma focus question (seriously) - Is there a Buddhist scripture relating to "not saving" - this is pertinent for me, having rescued a small lizard caught up in a spider web. I'm not sure if the lizard was grateful, But the spider was furious...no dinner, and having to repair his home... So - was it a good thing...saving another being? or was it a bad thing....depriving a being of sustenance, and damaging his living area? Should we let whatever is happening to another being (human or otherwise) happen? If we intervene, are we just delaying the fruits of their kamma?....Or were we meant to save them?" I, too, ask about the dilemma of 'other beings' from time to time. What to do about spiders, cane toads, frogs, cockroaches, ants, wasps, snakes, lizards, mice, rats and possums that seek to share my outside and inside living space. It is often difficult to discuss - most buddhists don't really take it seriously. Rebirth (if even accepted as a possibility) is not thought of as anything other than another human birth by many buddhists. So the value of the lives of insects, reptiles and other creatures seems to be given lip service only. Only one choice is usually considered when human comfort is involved (and it is mostly comfort, not health) - extermination. Currently, Queensland is undergoing the worst drought in over a hundred years. (There is to be a huge ecumenical Service led by the Archbishop and the State's Premier today in the Cathedral to pray for rain. Inevitably the prayers will be answered - I hope they put in a clause about 'timeliness of response'.) But, on a micro level, the ant population (always the ones with the most initiative, next to humans and rats) are invading my kitchen sink - they can't walk 200 metres to the rapidly drying dam for a drink, I expect. And, besides which, it is shoulder to shoulder with insect eating cattle egrets and ibis out there. The ants are also sending scouts out to locate the sugar bowl, crumbs and any other food sources. Nothing much outside - the grass is brown and crunchy underfoot. The local cattle are being grazed on the roadsides, 'the long paddock'. For anyone who remembers, Rachel the rat has disappeared. I believe prevention is the best choice and if I was starting off in a brand new house it would be easier. This week, because of the dire weather conditions (37 C and not half way through Spring yet) and raging bush fires (one human death so far, 'Others' not collected statistically), I have a tree lopping service coming to cut back many of the trees the 'Others' use as ladders onto/into the roof space. The mother possum is welcome to the sheds - but I would really prefer the rats' relatives to relocate entirely. I understand that scrupulous cleanliness is a given, but when conditions for survival are harsh to extreme outside, this doesn't prevent a clash of species' 'needs and wants' occurring. Should we just put out the 'rat bait' and 'surface spray' and call it 'their results of previous kamma' and 'commonsense' - maybe take up a mantra like 'there is no self - no-one who kills, no-one who dies' ... but if rebirth is truth, and I wipe out a nest of 30,000 ant beings deliberately, would saying 'I tried everything, but they just kept coming to the sink, so I had no choice ...' really wipe out the affects of my kamma? And will we ever get out of samsara if the deliberate killing of an insect is equivalent to killing beings more like 'us'? - an imponderable, I know. Tom, with regards to the garden, I think cutting back shrubs and trees from a Buddhist perspective is O.K. - isn't the precept about not killing applicable only to sentient beings (those who are beathing, and can feel fear)? Though knowingly entirely removing the things which a sentient being needs to sustain life would be another issue, as would garden insecticides and herbicides, so I believe. For more, look under "Animals" in Useful Posts and then follow the links and replies - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Welcome again, and hope to 'hear' you regularly, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" wrote: > Hi, > > Firstly a little introduction - i am Sarah's nephew tom. this is my > first real excursion into this site and my buddhist knowledge thin so > please forgive any ignorance. > > My first question is essentially one of practicality : > > I have found that on occasion, and infact the more it is thought > about the more occasions in which instances of it can be found, that > the action that is taken is often in conflict with mindfulness - for > example, when you clean you often find spiders and spiders webs in > your house - to remove these hence possibly killing the spiders and > destroying their homes in the process is asserting a selfish notion > ie clean over a non selfish one of preserve life and allow things to > be. It could I guess be argued that if they died in right mindfulness > (a prayer for example) then nothing would be disrupted but... > > I origianally thought of this ages ago and emailed Sarah about it, > but it has developed - hence the time taken to post. The same would > apply to gardening - should i let it grow? 16409 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:41pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Brian, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Brian Kelley" wrote: > When I downloaded the .pdf files of your class notes, I had difficulty reading > them, because the paali words with diacriticals didn't display correctly. I > suspect this is a font issue, or more specifically a cross- platform issue -- I use > a Macintosh computer (running Mac OS X, 10.2). Somebody else had a similar problem but it worked okay after they downloaded the latest version of Acrobat Reader (5.05?). Failing that, I could email to you the font file (.ttf format), if you think that it might help. > > I realize that I didn't answer your earlier question, to say more about the > project I'm working on. As I mentioned, this is my strategy for beginning to > learn and memorize the lists in the CMA, by working with them and > constructing a hypertext model based on certain of the charts. The way this > works: I've made an html page of the chart of the 28 material phenomena, > then for each item, link it to an html page with Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation, > and the characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause of each > item. I'll do other charts for cetasikas and cittas. The hope is to have them all > cross-referenced, so that one can click on any term and be able to get > information about related terms. Once all this reference material is ready, my > teacher was encouraging me to make an interactive module, in which one > could map out a "snapshot" of a mind-moment, taking a real life situation and > having the user go through and select which cetasikas, for example, would be > present. That's the idea, anyway. Wow! What an ambitious project! What is the time frame? I hope that you will be posting your work on a web-page, because even partially completed, it will be an excellent resource. Nina's book "Cetasikas" (available at the Zolag site mentioned earlier) will be an invaluable resource for you. Had you considered adding charts for the 24 conditions (Again, Nina's book on the subject is excellent) and Paticcasamuppada as well? I believe that Bhikkhu Bodhi is planning to relocate from Sri Lanka to your neck of the woods (not sure of the details, Sarah will know) in the near future. I would say that you are lucky, but that would be mana :-) Thanks, Rob M :-) 16410 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Tom, An imaginary conversation: Friend: Rob! You have shaved your head! Have you decided to become a monk? Rob: No, I have taken up competitive swimming. I read in a magazine that shaving my head will reduce resistance cutting 0.04 sec from my lap time. Friend: Rob, you are 10kg overweight and spend less than one hour a week in the pool. Why don't you focus on the more important issues before thinking about cutting 0.04 sec from your lap time? Killing insects creates bad kamma. However, let us consider the weightiness of the kamma created. The most important consideration in kammic weightiness is the quality of the underlying volition (intention). Are you malciously, sadistically and cruelly, seeking out to kill these insects? If so, that is worse kamma than failing to stop the lawnmower in time before you run over a poor worm. The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a large animal is more serious than killing a small animal. The bottom line is that if you are like me, before breakfast each day you end up doing ten bad things more weighty than killing an insect. By all means, avoid killing insects if you can. However, don't lose sight of the big picture; the mind is the forerunner of all things; work on your mental states to avoid greed/attachment (lobha), hatred/aversion (dosa) and delusion (moha). Another thing to think about is the incredible power of good kammic actions. Remember the ending of the movie, "Monsters, Inc.", when they discovered that laughter has ten times the energy of screams? A bit of dana (generosity), sila (discipline) or bhavana (meditation) creates lots and lots of good kamma. So rather than focusing on issues such as the killing of insects, perhaps you could focus on "helping an old lady to cross the street". With Metta, Rob M :-) 16411 From: Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:45pm Subject: Way 15, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued ñayassa adhigamaya = "For reaching the right path." The Noble Eightfold Path is called the right path. This preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness maintained (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the Supramundane Way. Nibbanassa sacchikiriyaya = "For the attainment of Nibbana." It is said as follows: For the attainment, the ocular experience by oneself, of the deathless which has got the name "Nibbana" by reason of the absence in it of the lust [vana, literally, sewing, weaving, from the root va, to weave] called craving [tanha]. [Tika] Craving [tanha] sews together [samsibbati] or weaves [vinati] aggregate with aggregate, effect with cause, and suffering with beings. In Nibbana there is no "vana". Or in the man who has attained to Nibbana there is no "vana". [T] Ocular experience by oneself: Sensing without aid from the outside. This way maintained, effects the attainment of Nibbana, gradually. Although by the phrase, "For the purification of beings," the things meant by the other phrases which follows it are attained, the significance of those other phrases that follow the first, is not obvious except to a person familiar with the usage of the Dispensation [sasana yutti kovido]. Since the Blessed one does not at first make people conversant with the usage of the Dispensation and after that teach the Doctrine to them, and as he by various discourses sets forth various meanings, he explained the things which "the only way" effects, with the words "For the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation," and so forth. Or it may be said that the Master explained the things accomplished by "the only way", in this manner, in order to show that every thing which leads to the purification of beings by the "only way" is dependent on the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation; that this overcoming is dependent on the destruction of suffering and grief; and that the destruction of suffering and grief is dependent on the reaching of the right path which is in turn dependent on the attainment of Nibbana. It is a declaration of the method of deliverance, by "the only way." 16412 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:45pm Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? --- Dear Rob., Just one point about cleaning out spider webs. The monks are told that they should keep their surroundings clean and the texts point out spider webs as something that they should clear away when they are cleaning.This of course can be done without killing the spiders. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "proctermail" wrote: > Hi, > > Firstly a little introduction - i am Sarah's nephew tom. this is my > first real excursion into this site and my buddhist knowledge thin so > please forgive any ignorance. > > My first question is essentially one of practicality : > > I have found that on occasion, and infact the more it is thought > about the more occasions in which instances of it can be found, that > the action that is taken is often in conflict with mindfulness - for > example, when you clean you often find spiders and spiders webs in > your house - to remove these hence possibly killing the spiders and > destroying their homes in the process is asserting a selfish notion > ie clean over a non selfish one of preserve life and allow things to > be. It could I guess be argued that if they died in right mindfulness > (a prayer for example) then nothing would be disrupted but... > > I origianally thought of this ages ago and emailed Sarah about it, > but it has developed - hence the time taken to post. The same would > apply to gardening - should i let it grow? 16413 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:05pm Subject: Re: Practice on DSG ---Dear Christine, Thanks for your interest. In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > From the first post :Meeting with Acharn somporn" > "He said > that reading the texts is one aspect but only by understanding > sabhava -realities - directly can there be proper understanding. > Everything is dhamma , whether it be seeing or hearing, colour or > sound, hardness, heat, even avijja (ignorance) is dhamma. There is no > one,no being there at all but because of wrong view the > characteristics (lakkhana ) which are simply conditioned dhamma are > taken as self. This is very deep and subtle sakkya ditthi shows > itself by clinging to wrong practice. > He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there > is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava." > > Question 1. (a) I wonder if anyone could clarify for me how 'right > practice' > would occur in the everyday life of a buddhist today? (b) or more exactly, how 'wrong practice' in everyday > life of a buddhist today would be defined? ________________ I think right practice is nothing other than the arising of panna which experiences whatever is present. Others might disagree and that is fine.When we read the satipatthana sutta we see that the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, feelings, citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to try to concentrate on some of these : However, does trying to make sati go to certain objects lead to detachment from the idea of self? We might remember that sati is just a cetasika - so ephemeral- can it really be directed and maintained? And the sati that is associated with sammaditthi of the path is the most profound of all - because it penetrates the characteristics of dhammas. On the other hand we may have the accumulations to be more skilled in understanding one of these 4 foundations than the others and so feelings appear more clear in the beginning or citta with lobha (the first under the citta classification). Or the hindrances may be the object that appears most; or visible object. However understanding has to become aware of all dhammas that appear: In the Path of Discrimination Treatise I on Knowledge, Ch 1, Section 1, All), it says: Bhikkhus, all is to be directly known. And what is all that is to be directly known? Eye is to be directly known, visible object is to be directly known, eye-consciousness... eye-contact... any feeling that arises with eye-contact as its condition whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant is also to be directly known...Ó """end translation. Acharn Sujin spoke with me on Sunday about choosing objects of satipatthana. She explained that nama and rupa are arising now. When there is choosing there are namas -sankhara khanda - that arise to choose and if there is no awareness of those moments as sankhara then there will continue to be the subtle, perhaps hidden, idea of a self who can choose. But no one can stop this aspect of self view arising - it is only be hearing the profound Dhamma that wise attention will be bought to subtle sakkya ditthi (as it arises) and by that it will slowly be attentuated. I think it is natural that we make wrong efforts -it must be that way because wrong effort is dictated by self view. However at those moments of wrong effort there are namas and rupas appearing and they can be seen - and must be seen if the right way is to be discerned. > Question 2. Many people do not fear death, I don't. I would fear > intense > unrelievable pain (at any time) but also in the dying process. I do > fear violence, but not death itself. Many people > welcome death after an illness, and many others choose death over > continuing on in an unendurable existence - whether there is belief > in any continuance or not. > ------------------------ You ask "Why would 'no fear of death' mean there is 'real understanding of sabhava dhamma'?." referring to what I wrote: "He said if there is real understanding of sabhava dhamma then there is no fear of death because there is no self in sabhava." You are right of course: I saw an interview with Osama Bin Laden when he was said he loved death and hoped for it . No fear of death can arise from many reasons but my statement was meant to indicate that knowing sabhava led to this fearless state; not vice versa.(I wasn't at all clear ). My talk with Acharn Somporn was not easy - he had to keep stopping and simplifying as it was in a mixture of thai and Pali and I have very limited knowledge of both. I am sure he wasn't as clumsy as my report makes him out to be. ---------- > And from the second post "Meeting with Acharn somporn2" :"Avijja and > tanha cannot understand dhamma but they can fool one into thinking > there is understanding. If panna arises then there is no self doing > anything but there is understanding of the moment". > > Question 3. How, then, can one ever know when there is right > understanding ... If avijja and tanha can fool one into thinking > there is. > Everyone acts out of what they think is right understanding. How can > there ever be certainty that one is practicing correctly? By anyone? > Everyone can quote a sutta or com. reference that seems to support > completely different view points, a sort of "Duelling to the Death by > Scripture Quotes". ____________ I think without a firm theoretical understanding vipassana cannot arise, and yet without some direct insight it is difficult to gain firm theoretical understanding: as you pointed out we will be swyaed by whatever sutta or teacher sounds right at the time. It seems a catch 22 bind but we should expect it to be this way. The path is different from anything we have ever done . In many lives lobha has been our friend. In this life it benefited us in manifold ways. Like a good parent it forced us to study hard . . It helped us to find good jobs, learn new languages and make money. It found our girlfriends and wives . It was even a supporting condition for kusala kamma. (we were good because we wanted the results of goodness) But it cannot understand dhammas correctly as they really are. Acharn Sujin said it is so natural that aviija and wrong view arises - they have been accumulated (ayuhana) but at those moments there are namas and rupas appearing and if panna has developed(also ayuhana) the difference between panna and avijja will come to be gradually known. Only by this way can the distinction between satipatthana and imitation awareness be known. If panna doesn't accumulate then avijja and lobha will always grasp whatever practice 'we' are doing at the moment as being right. I think again and again we have to examine whether we are firm to what the Buddha taught. He said that all dhammas are conditioned and not self and so evanescent. I know this is clear to me but I still sometimes wish that sati and panna can be made to appear by 'my' will. I try to hurry it all along. At those times it is easy to have subtle wrong practice but so often there is no awareness of it. So very natural that self view and wrong practice should arise. But if we insist to ourselves that we have right view and practice correctly now then there will be never be investigation that can gradually discern the right path. Robert In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta) Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing wise attention into existence.'" The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by listening carefully to the right person, by considering and applying what we have heard are the conditions for right understanding built up. Kotthita then asked sariputta "If right understanding is forwarded, by how many factors, your reverence, does there come to be the fruit of freedom..." Sariputta listed 5 factors: moral habit, hearing true dhama, discussion , calm, and vision. The commentary notes that discussion [with the wise] helps to give up wrong practice. 16414 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:46pm Subject: Re: Practice on DSG Hi Christine, Thanks for this list of questions; pondering over them has impressed upon me that I am barely beginning to find the answers. I think I have missed your meaning in a couple of places but here are a few comments: -------------------- Question 1. (a) I wonder if anyone could clarify for me how 'right practice' would occur in the everyday life of a buddhist today? (b) or more exactly, how 'wrong practice' in everyday life of a buddhist today would be defined? ------------------- Right practice would be mindfulness of presently arising paramattha dhammas. Of course, understanding what this means is a lifetime's work. If we have a practice that is easy to follow, then we can be pretty sure we have a wrong practice. ---------------------- > Question 2. Many people do not fear death, I don't. I would fear intense unrelievable pain (at any time) but also in the dying process. I do fear violence, but not death itself. Why would 'no fear of death' mean there is 'real understanding of sabhava dhamma'?. Many people welcome death after an illness, and many others choose death over continuing on in an unendurable existence - whether there is belief in any continuance or not.> ------------------------ The fear and fearlessness that we many-folk know, are mixtures of thoughts and emotions. We don't know precisely when there is dosa or adosa and we don't know precisely what those cetasikas have as object. I think it is nonetheless relevant for us worldlings to note when we are fearful and when we are not because we then can be reminded of the cetasikas, dosa and adosa and we can reflect on what we understand by those terms. It is also relevant to know whether we have latent tendencies towards fear or fearlessness because that too reminds us of what is accumulated in absolute reality. -------------------------- > Question 3. How, then, can one ever know when there is right understanding ... If avijja and tanha can fool one into thinking there is.> ------------------------ Panna can have panna (or ditthi), as object. I assume this from the Mahacattarika Sutta which says that when a monk knows that right understanding is right understanding and that wrong understanding is wrong understanding then that is his right understanding. Apart from fearlessness of death, how would right understanding of understanding show in daily life? Confidence in the Dhamma? ------------------ > Everyone acts out of what they think is right understanding. How can there ever be certainty that one is practicing correctly? By anyone? Everyone can quote a sutta or com. reference that seems to support completely different view points, a sort of "Duelling to the Death by Scripture Quotes".> ------------------------- Mostly, everyone acts out of what they think is pleasurable but you are making the point that we all come to our own conclusions as to what Dhamma related practices are beneficial. It's all a matter of conditionality, we shouldn't feel pride or shame, we conceptual beings only think we have a say in the matter. One day, instead of just thinking we don't fear death, we will directly know that there is only nama and rupa -- no self that dies. Even then, we are told, a measure of doubt will continue until Stream Entry when the final goal --the true deathlessness -- is seen. ---------------------------- > Question 4. The use of the word 'practice' or 'practise' is often confusing on this List. Different members seem to use the same word but not be referring to the same thing. Sometimes it is used as a noun as in 'the Practice'. This is never quite set out - one is pointed to the the Eight fold Path of practice, but the terms used here seem also to be invested with different meanings. Sometimes it is used as a verb 'when we practise' - though how can this be, when it is also said there is no-one who can 'choose' to do anything, no free-will, no-control, and when it is also said that sakkya-ditthi includes 'clinging to wrong practice.'? 5. Is formal sitting and walking meditation considered to include the idea 'a self' who because of 'lobha' for pleasant feeling is 'clinging to wrong practice'? i.e. sakkya-ditthi. > ----------------------- There is no denying our personality-belief. Where A. Somporn has said, `it shows itself as clinging to wrong practice,' I take that to mean, it shows itself in our preference for conventional reality over absolute reality. We are told that panna, like all conditioned realities, is conditioned by dhammas that are not self. However, we feel threatened by that; we want to attain enlightenment by means of self and so to some extent, we all choose conventional practices. I think the proponents of formal practice agree that it contains the [involuntary] belief in a self who can practise. They say that, in this way, sakkya-ditthi is a means to an end. Others maintain that this is wrong view. (I think there is a sutta (quoted on dsg by Robert K, if I remember correctly), that specifically describes as wrong view, "By self, I shall see not-self.") Like it or not, we have to accept that the true practice is right understanding all the way. Kind regards Ken H 16415 From: rahula_80 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:00am Subject: Hi, My understanding of Buddhism is that it did NOT teach that the five aggregates (Pali. khandha, Sanskrit. skandha) are mara but clinging to the aggregates. Is my understanding correct? If it is not, please correct me. If it is, please read on. I found these two suttas problematic to my understanding and at least one person, Shakya Aryanatta have accuse Bhikkhu Bodhi of mistranslating the suttas. They are maara sutta.m and maaradhammasutta.m. They are located in Sa.myuttanikaayo, Khandhavaggapali, Raadhasa.myutta.m, Dutiyavaggo. These suttas says that the aggregates are mara. Here are the suttas in Pali. 1. Maarasuttam Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaro, maaro'ti, bhante, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, bhante, maaro"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaro, vedanaa maaro, saññaa maaro, sa"nkhaaraa maaro, viññaa.na.m maaro. Eva.m passa.m, raadha, sutavaa ariyasaavako ruupasmimpi nibbindati, vedanaayapi nibbindati, saññaayapi nibbindati, sa"nkhaaresupi nibbindati, viñña.nasmimpi nibbindati. Nibbinda.m virajjati; viraagaa vimuccati. Vimuttasmi.m vimuttamiti ñaa.na.m hoti. `Khii.naa jaati, vusita.m brahmacariya.m, kata.m kara.niiya.m, naapara.m itthattaayaa'ti pajaanaatii"ti. Pathama.m. 2. Maaradhammasutta.m Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaradhammo, maaradhammo'ti, bhante, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, bhante, maaradhammo"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaradhammo, vedanaa maaradhammo, saññaa maaradhammo, sa"nkhaaraa maaradhammo, viññaa.nam maaradhammo. Eva.m passa.m…pe… naapara.m itthattaayaati pajaanaatii"ti. Dutiya.m. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Maraadhammasutta.m At Savatthi, the venerable Radha sitting to oneside said to Blessed One: "Venerable Sir, it is said subject to Mara, subject to Mara. What now venerable Sir is subject to Mara?" "Form, Radha is subject to Mara, Feeling is subject to Mara, Perceptions are subject to Mara, Volitional Formations are Subject to Mara, Consciousness is subject to Mara. He understands: '... there is no more for this state of being." In accusing Bhikkhu Bodhi of mistranslating these suttas, Shakya Aryantta have wrote: >> Herein Bhikkhu Bodhi glosses SN 3.195 and covers up Maradhamma with "subject to Mara", therein translating dhamma as "subject to" to gloss over the fact that the sutta states succinctly that the 5 aggregates are mara, are the dharma of mara (the evil one). Bhikkhu Bodhi glosses this word because of its implication and sutta and attempts pathetically to forgive himself in the footnote in the back without reason saying ::: Bhikkhu Bodhi's footnote to SN 3.195. #248 footnote "In the suttas that follow I translate the suffix -dhamma as "nature" rather than "subject to" Even FL Woodward translates this word (maradhamma) correctly and unglossed as "of the nature of Mara" However, the commentary to this sutta succintly states: maaradhammoti mara.nadhammo "mara's dhamma means shammas of death" Khandhavagga-atthakathaa 2.336 Dutiyavaggassa patthame maaro, maaroti mara.na.m pucchati. yasmaa pana ruupaadivinimutta.m mara.na.m naama natthi, tenassa bhagavaa ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaroti-aadimaaha. dutiye maaradhammoti mara.nadhammo. etenupaayena sabbattha attho veditabboti. << Below are Shakya Aryanatta's translation. Is it correct? If not, why? 1. Maarasutta.m At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord "Mara,Mara I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Mara mean?""Just this, form, Radha is Mara, sensations are Mara, perceptions are Mara, assemblages are Mara, sentience is Mara. Seeing thusly?this is the end of birth, the Brahma-life has been fullfiled, what must be done has been done, he discerns there is nothing further than this very Soul." 2. Maaradhammasutta.m At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord "Mara's dharma, Mara's dharma I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Mara's dharma mean?" "Just this, form, Radha is Mara's dharma, sensations are Mara's dharma, perceptions are Mara's dharma, assemblages are Mara's dharma, sentience is Mara's dharma. Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahma-life has been fullfiled, what must be done has been done, he discerns there is nothing further than this very Soul." ----------- Thanks, Rahula 16416 From: rahula_80 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:01am Subject: Khandha = Mara? Hi, My understanding of Buddhism is that it did NOT teach that the five aggregates (Pali. khandha, Sanskrit. skandha) are mara but clinging to the aggregates. Is my understanding correct? If it is not, please correct me. If it is, please read on. I found these two suttas problematic to my understanding and at least one person, Shakya Aryanatta have accuse Bhikkhu Bodhi of mistranslating the suttas. They are maara sutta.m and maaradhammasutta.m. They are located in Sa.myuttanikaayo, Khandhavaggapali, Raadhasa.myutta.m, Dutiyavaggo. These suttas says that the aggregates are mara. Here are the suttas in Pali. 1. Maarasuttam Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaro, maaro'ti, bhante, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, bhante, maaro"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaro, vedanaa maaro, saññaa maaro, sa"nkhaaraa maaro, viññaa.na.m maaro. Eva.m passa.m, raadha, sutavaa ariyasaavako ruupasmimpi nibbindati, vedanaayapi nibbindati, saññaayapi nibbindati, sa"nkhaaresupi nibbindati, viñña.nasmimpi nibbindati. Nibbinda.m virajjati; viraagaa vimuccati. Vimuttasmi.m vimuttamiti ñaa.na.m hoti. `Khii.naa jaati, vusita.m brahmacariya.m, kata.m kara.niiya.m, naapara.m itthattaayaa'ti pajaanaatii"ti. Pathama.m. 2. Maaradhammasutta.m Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaradhammo, maaradhammo'ti, bhante, vuccati. Katamo nu kho, bhante, maaradhammo"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaradhammo, vedanaa maaradhammo, saññaa maaradhammo, sa"nkhaaraa maaradhammo, viññaa.nam maaradhammo. Eva.m passa.m…pe… naapara.m itthattaayaati pajaanaatii"ti. Dutiya.m. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Maraadhammasutta.m At Savatthi, the venerable Radha sitting to oneside said to Blessed One: "Venerable Sir, it is said subject to Mara, subject to Mara. What now venerable Sir is subject to Mara?" "Form, Radha is subject to Mara, Feeling is subject to Mara, Perceptions are subject to Mara, Volitional Formations are Subject to Mara, Consciousness is subject to Mara. He understands: '... there is no more for this state of being." In accusing Bhikkhu Bodhi of mistranslating these suttas, Shakya Aryantta have wrote: >> Herein Bhikkhu Bodhi glosses SN 3.195 and covers up Maradhamma with "subject to Mara", therein translating dhamma as "subject to" to gloss over the fact that the sutta states succinctly that the 5 aggregates are mara, are the dharma of mara (the evil one). Bhikkhu Bodhi glosses this word because of its implication and sutta and attempts pathetically to forgive himself in the footnote in the back without reason saying ::: Bhikkhu Bodhi's footnote to SN 3.195. #248 footnote "In the suttas that follow I translate the suffix -dhamma as "nature" rather than "subject to" Even FL Woodward translates this word (maradhamma) correctly and unglossed as "of the nature of Mara" However, the commentary to this sutta succintly states: maaradhammoti mara.nadhammo "mara's dhamma means shammas of death" Khandhavagga-atthakathaa 2.336 Dutiyavaggassa patthame maaro, maaroti mara.na.m pucchati. yasmaa pana ruupaadivinimutta.m mara.na.m naama natthi, tenassa bhagavaa ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaroti-aadimaaha. dutiye maaradhammoti mara.nadhammo. etenupaayena sabbattha attho veditabboti. << Below are Shakya Aryanatta's translation. Is it correct? If not, why? 1. Maarasutta.m At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord "Mara,Mara I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Mara mean?""Just this, form, Radha is Mara, sensations are Mara, perceptions are Mara, assemblages are Mara, sentience is Mara. Seeing thusly?this is the end of birth, the Brahma-life has been fullfiled, what must be done has been done, he discerns there is nothing further than this very Soul." 2. Maaradhammasutta.m At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord "Mara's dharma, Mara's dharma I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Mara's dharma mean?" "Just this, form, Radha is Mara's dharma, sensations are Mara's dharma, perceptions are Mara's dharma, assemblages are Mara's dharma, sentience is Mara's dharma. Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahma-life has been fullfiled, what must be done has been done, he discerns there is nothing further than this very Soul." ----------- Thanks, Rahula 16417 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Wisdom Hi Erik, Hope you both and Eath’s nephew are doing well. I’ve just been having a look at Nanda’s Questions, Sutta-Nipata and would like to just add a couple of comments as I understand the sutta. (Someone else like Rob K may pull out the Pali or commentary, but I don’t have access to these.)Thank you for the reference and comments. ***** Ven Saddhatissa’s transl: 1. “To me, Nanda, a wise man is one who has disarmed: he lives in seclusion, without the tremble or the hunger of desire”. ..... S: seclusion, i.e secluded from desire, not from society disarmed, i.e disarmed of attachments and kilesa, not of conventional weapons ..... 2. “I would say this about religious leaders who teach that views and teachings, or deeds and rituals, or anything else will make you pure; I would say that these men, living in this world, have not gone beyond birth and ageing.’ ..... S: views and teachings,or deeds and rituals... i.e wrong views and practices as clung to by worldlings....(this was discussed earlier with regard to other suttas in Sutta Nipata). ..... 3. “There are some who have let go of world-views of teaching traditions of thoughts. They have let go of religious practices and rituals, they have left all the different forms behind and they have a total understanding of attachments. For them there are no inner poison-drives. These, truly, are the ocean-crossers.” ..... S: world-views, i.e conventional wrong views. religious practices and rituals, attachment to these as eradicated by sotapanna Understanding of attachments, i.e cause of suffering, fully developed right understanding as learnt, experienced and directly developed no poison-drives, i.e living alone, living in seclusion with sense-doors guarded, kilesa eradicated = arahants. ..... Sarah ===== --- rikpa21 wrote: > > Hello fellow DSG'ers, > > I found this note on wisdom (taken from the Tripitika) from Prof. > Richard Hayes appropriate and worthy of wise consideration: > > "Now as long as we are on the topic of wisdom, let's make it clear > that according to the Buddha (as reported in Nandamaanavapucchaa in > the Sutta-nipaata) wisdom has nothing whatsoever to do with what one > believes. It has nothing at all to do with what one has experienced > or how one has experienced it, nothing to do with what one has > learnt or how much one has learnt or from whom one has learnt it, > and nothing to do with what one has thought about and figured out by > oneself. Moreover, wisdom has nothing to do with which vows one > has taken or what rituals one performs. > > "If wisdom is none of these, asks Nanda, then what is it? The Buddha > replies that wisdom consists in letting go of worldviews, letting go > of traditions and teachings, letting go of rituals and obsessions > about which actions are pure and which impure, and letting go of all > the internal poisons. Wisdom, he goes on to say, is living in > seclusion, not depending in any way on the approval of the rest of > society. In other places in the Sutta-nipaata, the Buddha says that > wisdom consists in "disarming", that is, letting go of all cudgels, > swords and sticks (and, I would guess, uzi machine guns, AK-47 > assault rifles, handguns, armoured tank divisions, vials of > weapon-grade infectious diseases and nuclear bombs) and beholding > all living beings with the same love that a mother has for her only > child." ======================== 16418 From: rikpa21 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 6:40am Subject: On Wisdom, the Visuddhimagga, & Buddhadasa Bikkhu --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Erik, > > Hope you both and Eath's nephew are doing well. Yes, we're all doing well, and Eath and our son are doing well, though if there has ever been a test of patience, dealing with a five-year-old monkey with boundless energy has left us both completely exhausted. Thanks for your kind consideration. May you and all beings be well and free from dukkha! :) > I've just been having a look at Nanda's Questions, Sutta-Nipata and would > like to just add a couple of comments as I understand the sutta. (Someone > else like Rob K may pull out the Pali or commentary, but I don't have > access to these.)Thank you for the reference and comments. > ***** > > Ven Saddhatissa's transl: > 1. "To me, Nanda, a wise man is one who has disarmed: he lives in > seclusion, without the tremble or the hunger of desire". > ..... > S: seclusion, i.e secluded from desire, not from society > disarmed, i.e disarmed of attachments and kilesa, not of conventional > weapons Perhaps you missed the Ajarn Hayes' dry wit, as many are prone to do, and taken literally (nitattha) what is meant tongue-in-cheek (neyattha). ;) > ..... > 2. "I would say this about religious leaders who teach that views and > teachings, or deeds and rituals, or anything else will make you pure; I > would say that these men, living in this world, have not gone beyond birth > and ageing.' This could easily imlpy that the entire Visuddhimagga runs counter to what the Buddha taught, which uses views, teachings, deeds, and rituals as a means of purification that leads to release. On that note, just to stir the pot a bit, I find Buddhadasa Bikkhu's sharp critiques of both the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma worthy of careful consideration and dispassionate analysis: "Buddhadasa and Criticism of Theravada Buddhism in Thailand "It appears that in general, Buddhadasa is critical of anything standing in the way of the fulfillment of the primary soteriological purpose of religion. His work is not limited at abroadside attack on traditional interpretations of Buddhist teaching, but also includes thecriticism of various components of Thai Buddhist tradition. He opines that Buddhism has tobe dynamic since once it becomes a sterile system it will lose its vitality. Buddhadasa's criticism of Thai Buddhism is a part of his attempt to return to original Buddhism. Further, it can lead us to a better understanding of the religious situation in Thailand. Traditional Scriptures "From the doctrinal point of view the brunt of Buddhadasa's attack is directed toward Buddhaghosa, one of the greatest Buddhist commentators in the 5th century A.D., who is most acclaimed for providing a commentary and interpretative structure for the Theravada tradition, and the scholastism of the Abhidhamma. "Buddsadasa observes that in Thailand various scriptural commentaries which were later completed replaced the original Pali Text as a source of religious authority, especially Visuddhimagga (the Path of Purity), a classical scriptural commentary of Buddhaghosa which is one of the most important texts of Buddhist study in Thailand. He declares that Visudhimagga is one of the oldest historical evidence showing gradual use of Hindu concepts in interpreting Buddhist teachings. Buddhadasa illustrates this argument through historical evidence, such as Buddha's Own Word, the Suttas in the Tipitaka. "In his book he wrote the title "What is Paticcasam-uppada" (1971) showing the distinction between what he considers the interpretation of Buddhist teaching using Hindu concepts and in the Buddhist sense. He is convinced that uncritical adherence to the Buddhaghosa orthodoxy has obscured a real encounter with the Buddha's dhamma. The criticism of Visuddhimagga implies that Buddhadasa goes against the belief and understanding of not only most Thai Buddhists but also Buddhists in general. Consequently, he is condemned by some groups of monks and laymen as an ungrateful and heretical person who destroys Buddhism. "On the other hand, his book has became an important reference which most of Buddhist students have to take into consideration. Buddhadasa does not stop there, he does what nobody has dared to do, that is, he criticizes the Abhidhamma Pitaka, one of the cardinal tripartite scriptures in the Tipitaka: Abhidhamma, Sutta, and Vinaya Pitaka. It is a fact that most of Thai Buddhist students believe that Abhidhamma is the Buddha's Own Word. They prefer to study this more carefully than the other two scriptures (Sutta and Vinaya), especially since World War II, when the Burmese tradition of studying and practicing Buddhism was introduced into Thailand. "Buddhadasa insists that Abhidhamma was completed about 1300 years after the death of Buddha. He further criticizes that a large part of Abhidhamma is not only in line with Buddha's dhamma but it is also antithetical to the profound Buddhist teaching. "What is Abhidhamma" (1971), is one of Buddhadasa's important research works which refers to many sources of evidence taken from the Tipitaka, including the existing opinion of both eastern and western Buddhist scholars like Phra Nanatilaka (a German monk), Professor T.W Rhys Davids, who established the Pali-Text Society in London, andHary Singh Gour, a well-known Indian scholar. His book is regarded as the most importantoperation on the Thai Theravada Buddhism. As a result of this criticism, Buddhadasa is opposed by some conservative monks and laymen. He is accused of being a great sinner, as daring to criticize the Abhidhamma Pitaka as wrong. However, the Abhidhamma Pitaka has been discredited in the view of many monks and laymen. The prestige of the Abhidhamma has been affected immensely ever since. "Buddhadasa also criticizes the Buddhologists including most eastern and western scholars who write about Buddhism because he feels that their writings contain many non-Buddhist concepts. They generally use Hindu concepts to explain Buddhism, especially the concepts of kamma, birth and rebirth. He acknowledges that it is very difficult to clearly distinguish between Buddhist and Hindu concept through only literal study of doctrine or historical evidences. This is because one of the most difficult points centres on the application of the same word which carries completely different meanings and goals: one meaning (the meaning in Hindu sense) maintaining the "self" or attachment to "self"; whereas another meaning (the meaning in Buddhism) maintains "non-self" and demolishing the idea of "self". This point, for Buddhadasa, is a border line between Buddhist and Hindu conception." I really appreciate Buddhadasa Bikkhu's fearlessly taking on the Establishment in an attempt to help others divest themselves of the dogmatism, sectarianism, speculations, and rites and rituals--all bound up in miccha ditthi, and far removed from the Buddha's actual teachings in the Suttas. Iconoclastically yours, Erik 16419 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 6:56am Subject: Re: On Wisdom, the Visuddhimagga, & Buddhadasa Bikkhu --- Dear erik, So glad to hear you are coping with your new new charge. I have been through it and ran away a couple of couple times but as Rob M. has mentioned rearing children can be a practice in itself. So many occasions for khanti (patience)to have the chance e to arise . (And sometimes it doesn't but my suggestion is to be patient with your own impatience - it is no easy job). Sometimes the best I could do was say nothing and just study the charactersic of sound. I was intrigued with these comments and wonder if you agree? "hey generally > use Hindu concepts to explain Buddhism, especially the concepts of > kamma, birth and rebirth." Do you think rebirth and kamma are hindu ideas? Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Hi Erik, > > > > 16420 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:00am Subject: Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 9 Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 9 We read in the ³Anumånasutta², ³Discourse on Measuring in Accordance with² that Mahå- Moggallåna taught the Dhamma and explained to the monks which person is someone who is ³easy to speak to² (susceptible to instruction), and exhorted them to examine themselves as to this 7). He said: Therein, your reverences, a monk should examine himself thus: ³Now, am I of evil desires, in the thrall of evil desires?² If, your reverences, while the monk is reflecting, he knows thus: ³I am of evil desires, in the thrall of evil desires,² then, your reverences, that monk should strive to get rid of those evil, unskilled states. But if, your reverences, that monk, while reflecting, knows thus: ³I am not of evil desires, not in the thrall of evil desires², then he should abide with rapture and delight, training himself diligently day and night in skilled states. The words, ³a monk should examine himself², make it clear to us that someone else cannot examine in detail our akusala to the same extent as we ourselves. We can examine ourselves whether we are today of evil desires, in the thrall of evil desires, and moreover, we should be sincere, truthful to ourselves. If we are of evil desires, we should strive to abandon those evil, unskilled dhammas. Some people do not like to consider their own akusala, but if someone sees the benefit of the development of endeavour for kusala, he should also notice his own akusala. If a person has viriya and makes an effort to examine himself he should be sincere and he should not spare himself. If someone examines himself in this way and strives to give up akusala, he is a person who is ³easy to speak to², susceptible to instruction. A person who is difficult to speak to is the opposite, he does not strive to give up akusala. All this pertains to viriya cetasika. We read in the ³Saddhammapajjotikå², the Commentary to the ³Tuvataka Sutta² (Speedy), in the Mahå-Niddesa, Khuddaka Nikåya, an explanation of the faculty, indriya, of viriya (8: As to the word ³cetasiko², this is used in order to show that energy is always mental and that it is not bodily. There is only mental energy.... Viriya is nåma dhamma which conditions the arising of effort through the body or through citta. Even when we make an effort with the body to do something, we should know that we can make such an effort because of viriya cetasika. The Commentary refers to the Suttas which deal with someone who makes an alley walk, who is walking up and down, so that he is not indolent or sleepy. From the outward appearance this seems to be bodily energy, but in reality it is because of mental energy, viriya cetasika, that effort through the body can arise. The Commentary speaks further on about effort which has developed to the degree of the enlightenment factor of viriya (sambhojjhanga), one of the factors pertaining to the realization of the four noble Truths. The Commentary uses the Påli term viriyårambha. Årambha can mean beginning, attempt or effort. Viriyårambha is viriya cetasika, it is the putting forth of energy, such as effort to apply oneself to the Buddha¹s teachings. We read further on about the characteristic of energy which should be developed 9: Effort is called ³årambha² because it is striving. The term viriyårambha renders the characteristic of that kind of striving. What kind of striving? It is striving by way of escaping from idleness. Onward effort is so called by virtue of reaching a higher and higher state. Exertion is so called by virtue of rising up and keeping going. Endeavour is so called by virtue of special exertion; zeal, of being zealous; vigour, of firmness; fortitude, of bearing (supporting) citta and cetasikas, or of bearing the continuity of kusala by unbroken procedure. These are the characteristics of viriya. It is the escaping from idleness, progressing towards a higher state, continued exertion without stopping, zeal and fortitude by progressing on. Footnotes: 7. A monk who is ³difficult to speak to² does not listen and does not want to be corrected. The monk who is ³easy to speak to² is meek, he listens and is susceptible to instruction. 8. See also the ³Expositor² I, Part IV, Ch 2, 145. 9. See the ³Expositor² I, Part IV, Ch 2, 145-146. 16421 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:00am Subject: vimuttatta, to Rahula Dear Rahula, you asked some time ago about vimuttatta, which is: vimutta+ atta, self, being oneself emancipated. Self in conventional sense. I found this in PTS dictionary, and I do not know you had the solution meanwhile. Nina 16422 From: Frank Kuan Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 2:49pm Subject: right concentration, role of meditation in dhamma practice 37 bodhisattva practices, #29 Higher insight that penetrates right to the essence, Revealing the true way in which things exist, Can only root out our emotional problems If mental quiescence is laid as its base. Thus surpassing the four formless states of absorption We must work to achieve single-minded control, And the full concentration of deep meditation- The Sons of the Buddhas all practice this way. 16423 From: Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Practice on DSG Christine: "Everyone acts out of what they think is right understanding. How can there ever be certainty that one is practicing correctly? By anyone?" L: According to the logic of abhidhamma, whenever there is sati there cannot be lobha, dosa, or moha, except as object, of that citta. So whatever you think, feel, or do, if it is with sati, you can't go wrong (in that moment). Larry 16424 From: Charles Thompson Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 9 Help...... I goofed.............. 1. How do I stop getting e-mail. I will be in Thailand for about 30 days beginning Nov 5. 2. How do I make arrangements to meet you in Thailand? Thanks. a student, dhammasaro below deleted......................... 16425 From: Brian Kelley Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:05pm Subject: Re: A Question about proximate cause Hi Rob, You wrote: > Somebody else had a similar problem but it worked okay after they > downloaded the latest version of Acrobat Reader (5.05?). Failing > that, I could email to you the font file (.ttf format), if you think > that it might help. I just checked, and that is the version of Acrobat Reader that I have. If it's not too much trouble, if you could send that font off-list to bkelley1@n..., that would be very helpful, thank you. > Wow! What an ambitious project! What is the time frame? I hope that > you will be posting your work on a web-page, because even partially > completed, it will be an excellent resource. > > Nina's book "Cetasikas" (available at the Zolag site mentioned > earlier) will be an invaluable resource for you. > > Had you considered adding charts for the 24 conditions (Again, > Nina's book on the subject is excellent) and Paticcasamuppada as > well? > > I believe that Bhikkhu Bodhi is planning to relocate from Sri Lanka > to your neck of the woods (not sure of the details, Sarah will know) > in the near future. I would say that you are lucky, but that would > be mana :-) I think of this project (working title: AbhidhammaThing) as an open-ended, ongoing project. I hadn't really thought seriously about making it available publically for a long time. I would want people more familiar with the Abhidhamma than I am to go over it to make sure I didn't get anything wrong... I've now downloaded Ms. van Gorkom's books on Rupas, Cetasikas, and Conditions, and look forward to studying them. Yes, there's going to be a module on the 24 conditions. Heres the basic structure I've outlined: 5 reference sections and 2 interactive sections. Module 1: The 28 Material Phenomena (reference) Module 2: The 52 Mental Factors (reference) Module 3: The 89 (or 121) Mind Moments (reference) Module 4: The Series of 17 Mind Moments (reference) Module 5: The 24 Conditions (reference) Module 6: Examples from daily life (interactive -- a step-by-step "wizard") Module 7: Build your own mind moment, or series (interactive) Eventually I hope to add additional links to all of the modules, linking the material to discourses in the Sutta Pitaka (probably external links to Access to Insight). As I mentioned in an email to Sarah, I've heard that Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi might be coming to BCBS sometime next year, so I'm very hopeful that I might be able to attend that course. Thanks so much for your continued help and guidance, Rob. With much metta, Brian 16426 From: rikpa21 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 9:13pm Subject: Re: On Wisdom, the Visuddhimagga, & Buddhadasa Bikkhu --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: Hi Robert, > Dear erik, > So glad > to hear you are coping with your new new charge. I have been through > it and ran away a couple of couple times but as Rob M. has mentioned > rearing children can be a practice in itself. You ain't kiddin'! :) > So many occasions for khanti (patience)to have the chance > e to arise . Exactly the practice I'm most in need of. My lama has ensured that I get as much training in the khanti area as possible (as impatience is perhaps one of my greatest faults), and has for many (many!) years now. From the Dhammapada: "Enduring patience is the highest austerity. 'Nibbana is supreme,' say the Buddhas." In my life, the most difficult endeavor has been bearing the slings and arrows of sometimes outrageous fortune, without allowing the mind to go into the tiolet. In this regard I routinely fail the test. About a couple of months ago I was full of mana regarding progress in the paramita of patience, given difficulties already endured and the dramatically lowered mental disturbances regarding things that used to cause me to wig out. This recent adventure has been just the kick I needed to remind me that between the visa troubles, difficult people (particularly bureaucrats), and general instability of just about everything (job, living situation, etc.), that I am only a very sorry beginner in this area, still. The Dhammapada notes: "Put anger away, abandon pride, overcome every attachment, cling not to Mind and Body and thus be free from sorrow." Of course, one with truly well-developed patience would not have had cause to experience mental agitation: dosa regarding unpleasant situations, ill-will towards others (Dh. 2, 3): "He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,"—-in those who harbour such thoughts hatred will never cease. He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,"-—in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred will cease." Truly words to live by. I recall being pretty agitated and angry there for a while, regarding what I perceived as callous and unreasonable treatment that wound up costing us enormous time and money. But then again, that "problem" actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise for many people, since without that "problem" we wouldn't have an adopted son, Eath would have never met her birth mother (who she'd been looking for for years), and so on. Observing the cause-and-effect present in these experiences, I can trace a direct link back to the fiery dukkha of dosa/vyapada due to lack of sufficient forbearance: lack of forbearance in enduring difficult situations; lack of forbearance in restraining anger and ill-will toward those who appear to be acting oppressively toward "me". In all, a very general, system-wide failure in the forbearance department (of course not helped by being exhausted and travel-cranky from the back & forth between Siem Reap & Phnonm Penh, having my credit cards cancelled on me while I was stuck there and trying to sort that near-disaster out, and just generally running around like a crazy dog trying to get all kinds of legal paperwork sorted out). I like this page on khanti that demonstrates the perfection of khanti by the Buddha in a Jataka story: http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/khanti.htm And some more on khanti: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel116.html#ch4 My favorite text of all on patience has been Master Shantideva's commentary on the developing the Paramita of Patience. I have found myself referring to it again and again and again, out of necessity. It is said that without the development of khanti, the development of viriya and the higher modes of training is extremely difficult. This past month has been a real spur to train harder in the practice of forbearance, since it's obviously not nearly as developed as it should be if the mind is disturbed so easily. Given this has been the strongest dosa and ill-will experienced in a long time toward anyone, I have begun applying the antidote practice of metta bhavana, and especially attempting to turn the object of dosa into an object of metta, karuna, mudita, and upekkha using my favorite antidote recitation "Mind Training in Eight Verses"--which emphasizes seeing those who appear to oppress us as our most sacred teachers, since they show us the way to developing the greatest austerity, patience, and provide us with an opportunity we would not have otherwise have had to cultivate this critical parami. >(And sometimes it doesn't but my suggestion is to be patient > with your own impatience - it is no easy job). Truly sage advice. I was forced to laugh at myself yesterday when thinking "dammit, when is this patience training going to end already?" :) > Sometimes the best I could do was say > nothing and just study the charactersic of sound. That is an excellent idea. Given the many mental disturbances conditioned by sound lately, I take your suggestion here with gratitude. > I was intrigued with these comments and wonder if you agree? > "hey generally > > use Hindu concepts to explain Buddhism, especially the concepts of > > kamma, birth and rebirth." I think it's generally understood that kamma and rebirth have been a part of the continuum of Indian philosophies that existed long before the time of the Buddha, though in different guises and with different connotations. What I interpret Buddhadasa Bikkhu to be saying here is that the notions of kamma & rebirth are conventional notions applied to non-truly-existing "persons," that some later commentators have misunderstood and perhaps reified (though I'd need a much fuller context on this point to say anything more intelligent, and don't want to misrepresent Buddhadasa Bikkhu's points). > Do you think rebirth and kamma are hindu ideas? Most certainly. They are also Buddhist ideas, not to mention ideas held by many Christians and countless people of various stripes, religious, spiritual, or not. It is, I think, a matter of interpretation. Where I see the Buddhist Dhamma differ from other systems, is that the Buddha taught that kamma and rebirth are mere conventions, and not suggestive of there being a permanent ego- entity, "atta"; and not as "truly established," but rather, as imputed in dependence on impersonal causes and conditions which are themselves empty of independent existence. Cheers, Erik 16427 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:10pm Subject: Re: Khandha = Mara? Dear Rahula, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rahula_80" wrote: Hi, My understanding of Buddhism is that it did NOT teach that the five aggregates (Pali. khandha, Sanskrit. skandha) are mara but clinging to the aggregates. Is my understanding correct? If it is not, please correct me. If it is, please read on. I found these two suttas problematic to my understanding and at least one person, Shakya Aryanatta have accuse Bhikkhu Bodhi of mistranslating the suttas. They are maara sutta.m and maaradhammasutta.m. They are located in Sa.myuttanikaayo, Khandhavaggapali, Raadhasa.myutta.m, Dutiyavaggo. These suttas says that the aggregates are mara. KKT: I have a remark maybe irrelevant but interesting: The Surangama Sutra, a famous Mahayana Sutra, has a very long chapter describing in detail << the 50 states of Mara caused by the five aggregates >> (each aggregate causes 10 states, thus 10 x 5 = 50) Maybe this chapter of the Surangama Sutra has root from the two above Suttas ? KKT 16428 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:27pm Subject: Welcome Dhammasaro, (was:Re: [dsg] Perfections Ch 6, Energy, no 9) Hi Dhammasaro (Charles), --- Charles Thompson wrote: > Help...... > > I goofed.............. .... This is a pretty unusual intro to DSG;-) Welcome anyway and hope to hear a little more about you and your interest in Buddhism. Where are you now? .... > > 1. How do I stop getting e-mail. I will be in Thailand for about 30 > days > beginning Nov 5. .... Go to the homepage and in the top right corner it says 'edit my membership'. Click here and change your setting to 'no mail'. You can still read it anytime on the homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup When you want to get mail again, you just switch the setting back to how it was. ..... > 2. How do I make arrangements to meet you in Thailand? ..... I'm not sure if this was meant to be addressed to Nina or anyone from DSG. In any case, as a first step, I suggest you send a note off-list to Rob K, who'll all be in Bkk when you arrive and will be happy to meet up with you and take you to the foundation for any discussion with A.Sujin. Betty, Sukin, Num and a few others from DSG are also in Bkk and will be happy to help. Nina, ourselves and one or two others from DSG will be in Bkk at the very end of the month briefly. Pls send me a note off-list if you have any problems or if I can help further with this.(The same applies to anyone else visiting Bkk). .... > > Thanks. > > a student, > > dhammasaro .... Out of interest, is the 'sar' in your name shortened from sara.na as in 'refuge in the dhamma'? Best regards, Sarah ===== 16429 From: Purnomo . Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] bali blast dear all my friends I am very thank for you. You have helped me that my anger and sad are dukkha. I know that I lost control in the last. I know that we(balinesse) have been missing a life of peace. May we(buddhists) keep our metta. metta, purnomo 16430 From: Purnomo . Date: Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:48pm Subject: cryology dear friends, have you known about a dog for some days was frozen ? we must think that the dog was died. But, it wasn't. After the dog was processed so its temperature normal, it is life. Until now the dog is life. And now a child have been trying to proof of cryology theory. is it possible a man keep living in a temperature when his blood wasn't bleeding ? please see article about cryology in http://www.science-tech.nmstc.ca/english/schoolzone/Info_Science2.cfm metta, purnomo 16431 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Wisdom, the Visuddhimagga, & Buddhadasa Bikkhu Oh Erik, You do enjoy rocking the boat and shaking us all up when we’re quietly and cosily leading a peaceful life;-) --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In > Yes, we're all doing well, and Eath and our son are doing well, > though if there has ever been a test of patience, dealing with a > five-year-old monkey with boundless energy has left us both > completely exhausted. Thanks for your kind consideration. May you > and all beings be well and free from dukkha! :) ..... I can just imagine the change in your lifestyle on the mountain;-) I’ve been working with groups of monkeys (small children with boundless energy) for a long-time, so I know all about the patience tests too. I appreciated the reminders in the latest extract from K.Sujin’s ‘Perfections’. Sometimes we think we don’t have enough energy to cope, but ‘there is only mental energy’ and the question is only whether there is any wholesome energy at these times: “As to the word ‘cetasiko’, this is used in order to show that energy is always mental and that it is not bodily. There is only mental energy.... Viriya is nåma dhamma which conditions the arising of effort through the body or through citta. Even when we make an effort with the body to do something, we should know that we can make such an effort because of viriya cetasika. The Commentary refers to the Suttas which deal with someone who makes an alley walk, who is walking up and down, so that he is not indolent or sleepy. From the outward appearance this seems to be bodily energy, but in reality it is because of mental energy, viriya cetasika, that effort through the body can arise. The Commentary speaks further on about effort which has developed to the degree of the enlightenment factor of viriya (sambhojjhanga), one of the factors pertaining to the realization of the four noble Truths. The Commentary uses the Påli term viriyårambha. Årambha can mean beginning, attempt or effort. Viriyårambha is viriya cetasika, it is the putting forth of energy, such as effort to apply oneself to the Buddha’s teachings.” ***** And now I’m just questioning whether there is enough ‘energy’ (preferably of the wholesome kind) to consider your other comments with regard to Bhuddhadasa’s views. ..... > > 2. "I would say this about religious leaders who teach that > views > and > > teachings, or deeds and rituals, or anything else will make you > pure; I > > would say that these men, living in this world, have not gone > beyond birth > > and ageing.” (Sutta Nipata, Nanda’s questions) > > This could easily imlpy that the entire Visuddhimagga runs counter > to what the Buddha taught, which uses views, teachings, deeds, and > rituals as a means of purification that leads to release. ..... I hope I’m not missing any dry wit here, Erik or ‘tongue-in-cheek’ comments on your part. Just in case, I’ll add a few of my own. What you suggest here would, as I understand, be missing a)the meaning of the sutta which is specifically referring to wrong views etc and b)the entire Visuddhimagga which discusses and elaborates in detail the development of panna (right view) and the knowledge of truths as found in the suttas for those able to appreciate them. In another post, I referred to suttas in the Sutta Nipata: “.... in this sutta (Dutthatthaka Sutta), as in the suttas you quoted from before in Sutta Nipata, let’s be quite clear that the Buddha is referring to wrong views and unwholesome mental states. ‘One whose doctinres aren’t clean’. In the translation by Saddhatissa, we read: “He whose views are mentally. constructed, causally formed, highly esteemed but not pure..”.The next but one sutta, the Paramatthaka sutta, specifically refers in the translation I have to ‘dogmatic view’ and how the ‘brahmin is not led by rule and rite’. These are wrong views or wrong understandings (i.e. the opposite of samma ditthi, the first factor of the noble 8fold Path) that are referred to.” ***** As we can see in the case of just one sutta, the Satipatthana sutta or even just in one phrase like ‘ekaayano’, there is nothing simple about the understanding of the suttas. We all read the suttas with different interpretations. Some of us find it helpful to look at the commentaries by Buddhaghosa and others which have been accepted with the greatest respect by the Theravada sangha since the time they were written down. I also understand the origins of the commentaries and Abhidhamma to date from the Buddha’s own lifetime and from his Teachings and those of his great disciples such as MahaKassapa, Sariputta, MahaKaccayana, Ananda and so on who were entrusted to elaborate as appropriate. In the series on the commentary to the Vinaya, I quoted from Malalasekera (The Pali Literature of Ceylon); “When later the text of the canon came to be compiled, arranged, and edited, some of the expositions found their way into the Pitakas and were given a permanent place therein. Thus we have the Sangiti-suttanta of the Digha Nikaya, ascribed to Sariputta and forming a complete catechism of terms and passages of exegetical nature. Such was also the Sacca-vibhanga (an exposition of the four Noble Truths) of the Majjhima, which later found its proper place in the second book of the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and also the Madhu-pindika-sutta of Maha-Kaccayana, included in the Majjhima Nikaya. It sometimes happened that for a proper understanding of the text, explanations of a commentarial nature were quite essential; and in such cases the commentary was naturally incorporated into the text and formed part of the text itself.......Then there is the Niddesa, a whole book of commentary on texts now included in the Sutta-nipata; and there are passages clearly of a commentarial nature scattered throughout the Nikayas.” ***** I quite understand that many Buddhists, including well-respected teachers do not accept the commentaries or Abhidhamma, especially when what they read does not conform with their own understanding. They may even wish to ignore the Sutta Nipata for this reason;-) There is nothing new in this at all. One always has the choice of whether to follow one’s own commentary, other modern commentaries or those originating in the Buddha’s time and accepted at various Councils and carefully preserved down the centuries by the Sangha. Any suggestion that an appreciation of the Abhidhamma dates from post WW11 or is restricted to Thailand, however, would be quite wrong as your Tibetan teachers and anyone familiar with the history of Buddhism in other theravada countries would surely know. There may be minor discrepancies amongst various schools with regard to the details of the First Council, but I understand the Abhidhamma was rehearsed at this time, though as we know, the Kathavatthu was rehearsed later as instructed by the Buddha when the relevant issues arose. I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of the ancient manuscripts which Buddhaghosa based his works on (no longer available), but appreciate there will always be controversy. Certainly the commentaries were very well received by the Sangha which I believe still included large numbers of arahants at that time.In the end, as you often remind us, 'the proof is in the pudding'. In my case, I am not a (Buddhist) teacher or scholar and I am not Thai. I was brought up with a very different set of traditions and Establishments. If I can share a little of what has given me the greatest inspiration and confidence in dhamma, however, I’m glad to do so. If the decline of the Teachings accelerates as a result of the discarding of those parts of the Tipitaka which do not conform with the understanding of influential teachers, so be it. In your case, Erik, you have access to the Abhidhamma as taught in various schools by some of the finest and most knowledgable teachers who have encouraged you to understand and see the benefit of it in your daily life. These are opportunities that few others have in this lifetime. We all know you are conventionally very intelligent and gifted. I sincerely hope there is enough spiritual honesty and patience to persevere with the development of understanding as taught in the entire Tipitaka and not to follow the example of discarding those parts which seem too difficult to comprehend or those parts which do not conform with dearly held beliefs about self, kamma and rebirth, for example, when the going gets tough and there is doubt and confusion. As we know, in the decline of the Teachings, the Abhidhamma is the first part of the Tipitaka to be lost. It’s not difficult to see why and how this is so. In one word: Ignorance. ..... > On that note, just to stir the pot a bit, I find Buddhadasa Bikkhu's > sharp critiques of both the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma worthy > of careful consideration and dispassionate analysis: ... > I really appreciate Buddhadasa Bikkhu's fearlessly taking on the > Establishment in an attempt to help others divest themselves of the > dogmatism, sectarianism, speculations, and rites and rituals--all > bound up in miccha ditthi, and far removed from the Buddha's actual > teachings in the Suttas. ..... Erik, I sincerely hope that for the main part you are just stirring the pot.... I really appreciate the opportunity to hear and consider from all parts of the Tipitaka and the commentaries such as the Visuddhimagga. Without this access, I would probably still be following the miccha ditthi path as expounded by many teachers today in the name of courage, fearlessness and daring in ‘taking on the Establishment.’ I never thought I’d be a representative of any ‘Establishment’ but in this case, I’m honoured;-) Sarah ======= 16432 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:29am Subject: Re: On Wisdom, the Visuddhimagga, & Buddhadasa Bikkhu Daer Erik, With such a complete and excellent reply what is left for me to say.. Robert--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > --- > > Exactly the practice I'm most in need of. My lama has ensured that I > get as much training in the khanti area as possible (as impatience > is perhaps one of my greatest faults), and has for many (many!) > years now. > > From the Dhammapada: "Enduring patience is the highest austerity. > 'Nibbana is supreme,' say the Buddhas." > > In my life, the most difficult endeavor has been bearing the slings > and arrows of sometimes outrageous fortune, without allowing the > mind to go into the tiolet. In this regard I routinely fail the test. > > About a couple of months ago I was full of mana regarding progress > in the paramita of patience, given difficulties already endured and > the dramatically lowered mental disturbances regarding things that > used to cause me to wig out. This recent adventure has been just the > kick I needed to remind me that between the visa troubles, difficult > people (particularly bureaucrats), and general instability of just > about everything (job, living situation, etc.), that I am only a > very sorry beginner in this area, still. > > The Dhammapada notes: "Put anger away, abandon pride, overcome every > attachment, cling not to Mind and Body and thus be free from sorrow." > 16433 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:42am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Rob, Tom and all, Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, how and where does the change in the 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from being (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the next moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not worth focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the street'? I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references for "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and ethical point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... I only know things like Dhammapada 131 "Whoever, seeking his own happiness, harms with the rod pleasure-loving beings gets no happiness hereafter." which the Buddha spoke to children tormenting a snake, and the Metta Sutta "In safety and in bliss May creatures all be of a blissful heart. Whatever breathing beings there may be. No matter whether they are frail or firm, With none excepted, be they long or big Or middle-sized, or be they short or small Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, Or whether they are dwelling far or near, Existing or yet seeking to exist. May creatures all be of a blissful heart. Let no one work another one's undoing Or even slight him at all anywhere: And never let them wish each other ill Through provocation or resentful thought." And just as might a mother with her life Protect the son that was her only child, So let him then for every living thing Maintain unbounded consciousness in being;" If these distinctions you quote between the greater and lesser seriousness of kammic consequences of actions depending on the virtue, size or species of the living being concerned - would there be distinctions in the within a species? Say hurting/killing a bright intelligent high school graduate compared to a two year old born mentally disabled? hurting/killing a male compared to a female? hurting/killing a unborn fetus compared to a neonate? I have been reading "Attitude to and treatment of the natural world" in 'An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics' by Peter Harvey. "One's present fortunate position as a human is only a temporary state of affairs, dependent on past good karma. One cannot isolate oneself from the plight of animals, as one has oneself experienced it, just as animals have had past rebirths as humans. Moreover, in the ancient round of rebirths, every being one comes across, down to an insect, will at some time have been a close relative or friend, and have been very good to one. Bearing this in mind, one shouldreturn the kindness in the present." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Tom, > > An imaginary conversation: > > Friend: Rob! You have shaved your head! Have you decided to become a > monk? > > Rob: No, I have taken up competitive swimming. I read in a magazine > that shaving my head will reduce resistance cutting 0.04 sec from my > lap time. > > Friend: Rob, you are 10kg overweight and spend less than one hour a > week in the pool. Why don't you focus on the more important issues > before thinking about cutting 0.04 sec from your lap time? > > > > Killing insects creates bad kamma. However, let us consider the > weightiness of the kamma created. The most important consideration > in kammic weightiness is the quality of the underlying volition > (intention). Are you malciously, sadistically and cruelly, seeking > out to kill these insects? If so, that is worse kamma than failing > to stop the lawnmower in time before you run over a poor worm. > > The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal. > > The bottom line is that if you are like me, before breakfast each > day you end up doing ten bad things more weighty than killing an > insect. > > By all means, avoid killing insects if you can. However, don't lose > sight of the big picture; the mind is the forerunner of all things; > work on your mental states to avoid greed/attachment (lobha), > hatred/aversion (dosa) and delusion (moha). > > Another thing to think about is the incredible power of good kammic > actions. Remember the ending of the movie, "Monsters, Inc.", when > they discovered that laughter has ten times the energy of screams? A > bit of dana (generosity), sila (discipline) or bhavana (meditation) > creates lots and lots of good kamma. So rather than focusing on > issues such as the killing of insects, perhaps you could focus > on "helping an old lady to cross the street". > > With Metta, > Rob M :-) 16434 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] ekayana Dear All, I followed all the discussions on ‘ekaayana’ with interest. I believe it’s an important point as it both affects and is influenced by one’s understanding of the sutta. I’d like to summarise what I understand to date, though I appreciate that others may have come to other conclusions: > B.Bodhi wrote: > In any case, ‘ekaayana’ cannot possibly > mean "only," in the sense that Satipatthana is the only way, for the > simple reason that one cannot derive such a meaning from eka + ayana > (one > + going). ..... B.Bodhi mentions, however (MN n135) that ‘virtually all translators understand this as a statement upholding satipa.t.thaana as an exclusive path. Thus Ven Soma renders it: “This is the only way, O bhikkhus,” and Ven. Nyanaponika: “This is the sole way, monks.”.....' ..... My Pali knowledge is too limited to question this point. However, in the PTS Rhys Davids/Stede dict, it mentions “only” as a common meaning as in ‘ekadivasena’ - on the one day only, i.e on the same day (J 1.59) or as meaning one, by oneself, one only, alone, solitary as in ‘ekuddesa’ (Aiii67). For ‘ayana’ the dict. gives 2 meanings of a) “going’, road and b) going to goal and mentions ekayana maggo in this context. Jim wrote: “A literal translation of the phrasing is: "one way, monks, is this path" but because of the compound state of 'ekaayano' there are a number of ways 'eka' can be syntactically related to 'ayano' that allows for some different and equally valid interpretations as given in Soma's commentary translation. This is a good example of the limitations of an English translation in that it can choose only one of these interpretations for a sutta translation.” ***** As I understand, all the various meanings as translated by Ven Soma below are correct and should be understood in the phrase “ekaayano aya.m bhikkave maggo”. In brief, the development of satipatthana is the only way that nibbana can ever be realized. Regardless of whether samatha has been developed and jhanas attained or not, only the development of right understanding and the other factors of the eightfold path can lead to the goal and can fully comprehend the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Furthermore it can only be developed ‘alone’ in the sense of ‘being withdrawn from craving’. The path is only taught by the Buddha or from the Teachings in a Buddha era. Those who have not heard and considered the Teachings cannot develop satipatthana or the various insights. Furthemore, the (mundane)path ‘goes solely’ to Nibbana, by understanding the characteristics and nature of all the various objects (i.e paramattha dhammas)included in the four satipatthanas repeatedly. Sarah ====== _______________________________________________________ From the commentary and sub-commentary notes: "The only way" = The one way [Ekayanoti ekamaggo]. There are many words for "way". The word used for "way" here is "ayana" ("going" or road). Therefore, "This is the only way, O bhikkhus [ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo]" means here: "A single way ("going" or road), O bhikkhus, is this way; it is not of the nature of a double way [ekamaggo ayam bhikkhave maggo na dvedhapathabhuto]". Or it is "the only way" because it has to be trodden by oneself only [ekeneva ayitabbo]. That is without a companion. The state of being companionless is twofold: without a comrade, after abandoning contact with the crowd, and in the sense of being withdrawn (or secluded) from craving, through tranquillity of mind. Or it is called "ekayana" because it is the way of the one [ekassa ayana]. "Of the one" = of the best; of all beings the Blessed One is best. Therefore, it is called the Blessed One's Way. Although others too go along that way, it is the Buddha's because he creates it. Accordingly it is said: "He, the Blessed One, is the creator of the uncreated path, O Brahman." It proceeds (or exists) only in this Doctrine-and-discipline and not in any other. Accordingly the Master declared: "Subhadda, only in this Doctrine-and-discipline is the Eightfold Way to be found." And further, "ekayana" means: It goes to the one [ekam ayati] -- that is, it (the way) goes solely to Nibbana. Although in the earlier stages this method of meditation proceeds on different lines, in the latter, it goes to just the one Nibbana. And that is why Brahma Sahampati said: Whose mind perceiving life's last dying out Vibrates with love, he knows the only way That led in ancient times, is leading now, And in the future will lead past the flood.[6] As Nibbana is without a second, that is, without craving as accompanying quality, it is called the one. Hence it is said: "Truth is one; it is without a second." Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word "way"? Are there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration, besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these are implied when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because these factors exist in union with mindfulness. Knowledge, energy and the like are mentioned in the analytically expository portion [niddese]. In the synopsis [uddese], however, the consideration should be regarded as that of mindfulness alone, by way of the mental disposition of those capable of being trained. Some [keci], however, construing according to the stanza beginning with the words, "They do not go twice to the further shore [na param digunam yanti]"[7] say, "One goes to Nibbana once, therefore it is ekayana." This explanation is not proper. Because in this instruction the earlier part of the Path is intended to be presented, the preliminary part of the Way of Mindfulness proceeding in the four objects of contemplation is meant here, and not the supramundane Way of Mindfulness. And that preliminary part of the Path proceeds (for the aspirant) many times; or it may be said that there is many a going on it, by way of repetition of practice. In what sense is it a "way"? In the sense of the path going towards Nibbana, and in the sense of the path which is the one that should be (or is fit to be) traversed by those who wish to reach Nibbana. ________________________________________________________ 16435 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Tom, --- proctermail wrote: > Hi, > > Firstly a little introduction - i am Sarah's nephew tom. this is my > first real excursion into this site and my buddhist knowledge thin so > please forgive any ignorance. .... Of course Jon and I are delighted to see you here again after a very long break;-) I hope you and family are well and I'm sorry I didn't get to Sussex (or England) in the summer. I'm interested in your question (ignorance is very welcome and common amongst us), like the way you put it and am appreciating Rob M's and Christine's fine replies (in spite of C's attempts to show up my ignorance of gulping snakes - I expect I hear them in my sleep;-)) Anyway, I hope they give you some practical assistance....Let us know. Here in high-rise Hong Kong, the only occasional home critter probs we have are with an occasional cockroach. As there's seldom any food in the place, luckily they soon learn to visit other tastier flats. Yesterday, a student found a catterpillar in a pack of cards and screeched out "there's a horrible worm", whilst raising a foot to stamp on it. To the horror of a few, I very nimbly rescued the poor thing just in time and nursed it til the end of the class when it was taken outside. I expect a few parents will have heard about your wierd aunt's strange friends by now. I remember when we last me, we also had a very good discussion about 'realities'. I hope that when you've sorted out the practical concerns, you'll raise some of the other philosophical ones and also any comments from the Buddhist books you've been reading that make sense or don't make sense. Love to all, Sarah ====== > > My first question is essentially one of practicality : > > I have found that on occasion, and infact the more it is thought > about the more occasions in which instances of it can be found, that > the action that is taken is often in conflict with mindfulness - for 16436 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 6:47am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Rob, Tom and all, > > Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am > learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, how > and where does the change in the > 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from being > (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the next > moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or > spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not worth > focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the street'? > I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references for > "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> > > I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that > there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and ethical > point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... >___------ Dear Christine, There are a few places in the texts - mostly the commentaries- where it mentions this:In the kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa (translated as Minor readings PTS by nanamoli). there is a comprehensive section on the precepts. on p24 -25 it notes that the blamableness of an action varies according to its degree. hence killing a large animal is worse than killing an insect because of the degree of effort involved and other factors. it has many details. Robert 16437 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 8:42am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Christine, I took my information from the Atthasalini. I am on the road, so it will take a couple of days to give you the specific reference. However, in line with the theme of that message, let me stress that it is the unerlying volition that has the greatest impact on the kammic weight of an action. Christine, I don't understand your question regarding the 'change in worthiness'; can you ask again a different way? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi Rob, Tom and all, > > > > Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am > > learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, > how > > and where does the change in the > > 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from being > > (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the next > > moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or > > spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not worth > > focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the street'? > > I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references for > > "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing a > > > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous human. > > > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. Killing a > > > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> > > > > I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that > > there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and > ethical > > point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... > >___------ > Dear Christine, > There are a few places in the texts - mostly the commentaries- where > it mentions this:In the kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa (translated as > Minor > readings PTS by nanamoli). > there is a comprehensive section on the precepts. > on p24 -25 it notes that the blamableness of an action varies > according to its degree. hence killing a large animal is worse > than killing an insect because of the degree of effort involved > and other factors. it has many details. > Robert 16438 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 8:51am Subject: Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Hi Christine, Kenneth Ong asked the same question recently and I responded on Sep. 22 (message 15838) as follows: The references are from Atthasalini, Book I, Part III, Section V, "Discourse on Courses of Immoral Action" Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I took my information from the Atthasalini. I am on the road, so it > will take a couple of days to give you the specific reference. > > However, in line with the theme of that message, let me stress that > it is the unerlying volition that has the greatest impact on the > kammic weight of an action. > > Christine, I don't understand your question regarding the 'change in > worthiness'; can you ask again a different way? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > > wrote: > > > Hi Rob, Tom and all, > > > > > > Rob - I am finding your post hard to understand given that I am > > > learning about death and rebirth being only consecutive moments, > > how > > > and where does the change in the > > > 'worthiness' of the everchanging stream of cittas occur from > being > > > (say) a Bhikkhu [whose murder would carry heavy kamma] to the > next > > > moment being reborn as a caterpillar, lizard or > > > spider whose deliberate or indifferent death you consider not > worth > > > focusing on compared with 'helping an old lady across the > street'? > > > I wonder if you could you please give me the sutta references > for > > > "> The second consideration is the being that is killed. Killing > a > > > > virtuous human is more serious than killing a non-virtuous > human. > > > > Killing a human is more serious than killing an animal. > Killing a > > > > large animal is more serious than killing a small animal."> > > > > > > I'm assuming it would be a sutta spoken by the Buddha (and that > > > there would be many such suttas) for such an vital moral and > > ethical > > > point as to 'who it is not so serious' to harm or kill ... > > >___------ > > Dear Christine, > > There are a few places in the texts - mostly the commentaries- > where > > it mentions this:In the kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa (translated > as > > Minor > > readings PTS by nanamoli). > > there is a comprehensive section on the precepts. > > on p24 -25 it notes that the blamableness of an action varies > > according to its degree. hence killing a large animal is worse > > than killing an insect because of the degree of effort involved > > and other factors. it has many details. > > Robert 16439 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] mara sutta, Rahula Hi Rahula, I really enjoyed your post very much, I like all the Pali you gave us. Maara has many meanigs: the person of Maara, devaputta, and then: kilesa maara, the defilements, and also: all conditioned realities which are impermanent and thus dukkha. Maara is a name that can be used for all that is dukkha. Birth, old age and death are Maara. The PTS dict gives: death, maara can be applied to all conditioned realities: realm of rebirth, opposed to nibbana. Khandha, dhatu, ayatana, they are maara. S, I, Maara Samyutta. Many suttas confirm this, see suttas below that you quoted. op 23-10-2002 10:00 schreef rahula_80 op rahula_80@y...: > > My understanding of Buddhism is that it did NOT teach that the five > aggregates (Pali. khandha, Sanskrit. skandha) are mara but clinging > to the aggregates. > Here are the suttas in Pali. > > 1. Maarasuttam > > Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho > bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaro, maaro'ti, bhante, vuccati. Katamo nu > kho, bhante, maaro"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, maaro, vedanaa maaro, > saññaa maaro, sa"nkhaaraa maaro, viññaa.na.m maaro. Eva.m passa.m, > raadha, sutavaa ariyasaavako ruupasmimpi nibbindati, vedanaayapi > nibbindati, saññaayapi nibbindati, sa"nkhaaresupi nibbindati, > viñña.nasmimpi nibbindati. Nibbinda.m virajjati; viraagaa vimuccati. > Vimuttasmi.m vimuttamiti ñaa.na.m hoti. `Khii.naa jaati, vusita.m > brahmacariya.m, kata.m kara.niiya.m, naapara.m itthattaayaa'ti > pajaanaatii"ti. Pathama.m. > > 2. Maaradhammasutta.m > > Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa raadho > bhagavanta.m etadavoca– "`maaradhammo, maaradhammo'ti, bhante, > vuccati. Katamo nu kho, bhante, maaradhammo"ti? "Ruupa.m kho, raadha, > maaradhammo, vedanaa maaradhammo, saññaa maaradhammo, sa"nkhaaraa > maaradhammo, viññaa.nam maaradhammo. Eva.m passa.m…pe… naapara.m > itthattaayaati pajaanaatii"ti. Dutiya.m. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Maraadhammasutta.m > > "Venerable Sir, it is said subject to Mara, subject to Mara. What now > venerable Sir is subject to Mara?" > > "Form, Radha is subject to Mara, Feeling is subject to Mara, > Perceptions are subject to Mara, Volitional Formations are Subject to > Mara, Consciousness is subject to Mara. He understands: '... there is > no m