16600 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 4:37pm Subject: PERFECTIONS Dear group, (esp. Azita), I have typed a listing of the postings Nina has made of her translations of "Perfections" by A. Sujin, with hyperlinks, in case anyone joined in on the series late and would like an easy reference for reading. Hope there are no errors. The Links for Chapters 1 to 5 so far covering four Perfections of Generosity, Morality, Renunciation, and Wisdom are below. Azita - I may have misunderstood, but I think Nina's translations are a 'Work in Progress' at the moment - very happy to be corrected though if they are available elsewhere. metta, Christine —------------------------------------------------- 13977 Ch.1 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13977 13992 Ch. 1 No.2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13992 14004 Ch. 1 No.3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14004 —------------------------- "The Perfection of Generosity" 14094 Ch. 2 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14094 14114 Ch. 2 No. 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14114 14137 Ch. 2 No. 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14137 14157 Ch. 2 No. 4 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14157 14210 Ch. 2 No. 5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14210 14226 Ch. 2 No. 6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14226 14237 Ch. 2.No. 7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14237 14252 Ch. 2 No. 8 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14252 14265 Ch. 2 No. 9 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14265 14320 Ch. 2 No.10 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14320 14345 Ch. 2 No.11 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14345 —------------------------- "The Perfection of Morality" 14395 Ch. 3 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14395 14429 Ch. 3 No. 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14429 14483 Ch. 3 No. 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14483 14511 Ch. 3 No. 4 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14511 14551 Ch. 3 No. 5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14551 14569 Ch. 3 No. 6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14569 14593 Ch. 3 No. 7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14593 14646 Ch. 3 No. 8 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14646 14713 Ch. 3 No. 9 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14713 —------------------------- "The Perfection of Renunciation" 14766 Ch. 4 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14766 14876 Ch. 4 No. 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14876 14979 Ch. 4 No. 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14979 15013 Ch. 4 No. 4 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15013 15055 Ch. 4 No. 5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15055 15082 Ch. 4 No. 6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15082 15207 Ch. 4 No. 7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15207 —------------------------ "The Perfection of Wisdom" 15259 Ch. 5 No. 1 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15259 15332 Ch. 5 No. 2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15332 15368 Ch. 5 No. 3 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15368 15429 Ch. 5 No. 4 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15429 15470 Ch. 5 No. 5 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15470 15549 Ch. 5 No. 6 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15549 15636 Ch. 5 No. 7 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15636 15731 Ch. 5 No. 8 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15731 15787 Ch. 5 No. 9 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15787 15805 Ch. 5 No.10 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15805 15848 Ch. 5 No.11 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15848 15909 Ch. 5 No.12 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15909 15942 Ch. 5 No.13 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15942 16601 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, Rahula - This post confuses me. I don't recall giving any reference. (I don't know why you mention my name.) Also, when I try to access your url, I get a msg saying that there is no msg 82804. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/1/02 7:26:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, rahula_80@y... writes: > > Hi, > > From > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/82804. > > Howard: > > Could you please be more detailed in this reference? From "SN 4" I > have no > idea of where to look. > > Anders: > > I'm pretty sure it's the Samyutta Nikaya I 4. > > ------ > > > This is Samyutta Nikaya I. 4 > > Accentisutta.m > > 4. Saavatthinidaana.m Ekamanta.m thitaa kho saa devataa bhagavato > santike ima.m gaatha.m abhaasi– > "Accenti kaalaa tarayanti rattiyo, > vayogu.naa anupubba.m jahanti; > eta.m bhaya.m mara.ne pekkham±no, > puññaani kayiraatha sukhaavahaanii"ti. > "Accenti kaalaa tarayanti rattiyo, > vayogu.naa anupubba.m jahanti; > eta.m bhaya.m mara.ne pekkham±no, > lokaamisa.m pajahe santipekkho"ti. > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16602 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:01pm Subject: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana Dear Sarah and all, to appreciate the Buddhist goal of parinibbana (was "paramis are not lost through parinibbana") I would like to appreciate and form skillful beliefs about the Buddhist goal of parinibbana in order to feel inspired and arouse interest in practising the path. I would like to believe that parinibbana is full of love and compassion like the path is rather than just an undifferentiated peace. I was reassured by Thanissaro's article on Nibbana which explains that in ancient India the blowing out of a fire was not considered to be annihilation but that the fire became dormant and diffused throughout the cosmos. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/nibbana.html I would like to believe that the Buddha is still with us in some way. Nibbana is not defined as non-existence. I believe that Nibbana cannot be described with language but it is the goal of Buddhism and gives the practice its sense of direction and purpose. Thanks / Antony. 16603 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:02pm Subject: Re: Ugliness (Re: [dsg] Way 17, Comm) Dear Howard and all, In contemplating the parts of the body I don't believe the Buddha intended us to have a "mood .... of revulsion or gloom but of unruffled calm .... from sober, analytical observation" (to use the words of Nyanaponika). To quote the Buddha from the Satipatthana Sutta: "Just as if, O bhikkhus, there were a bag having two openings, full of grain differing in kind, namely, hill-paddy, paddy, green-gram, cow-pea, sesamum, rice; and a man with seeing eyes, having loosened it, should reflect thinking thus: 'This is hill paddy; this is paddy, this is green-gram; this is cow-pea; this is sesamum; this is rice.' In the same way, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body hemmed in by the skin and full of manifold impurity from the soles up, and from the top of the hair down, thinking thus: 'There are in this body: hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, fibrous threads (veins, nerves, sinews, tendons), bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, contents of the stomach, intestines, mesentery, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, solid fat, tears, fat dissolved, saliva, mucus, synovic fluid, urine.' I admit I've only tried the first five visible parts "hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin" with metta / Antony. 16604 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi James, I think anything within a Theravada context is on topic. "Fear" seems like a good one to me. What's on your mind? Larry 16605 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:11pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 4:08 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" > > > Hi, Kom (and anyone else interested) - > > My point is that concepts/pa~n~natti are mind made, not just > nature-given (as are rupas, vedana, etc). My question is what > cetasikas, what > basic mental functions other than vi~n~nana, are involved in the > constructing > of pa~n~natti, and how are pa~n~natti maintained and passed on (as > templates). When I look outside and see "a tree", what is occurring is a > complex juxtaposition of processes, some of which involve the > pa~n~natti of > 'tree'. How was that pa~n~natti constructed (by means of what > cetasikas), how > does it get applied to a series of processes of paramattha > dhammas, and how > is it passed along from mind-state to mind-state? This is a very > important > topic, because our entire world as we normally experience it, > that is - the > conventional world, is virtually all concept. Abhidhamma surely > must give a > complete account of concept formation. > > Aha. This is a very interesting question, but it is beyond what I have studied so far. The abhidhamma gives very detailed descriptions of how the mind works. Understanding it is another matter altogether. It is obviously not possible to understand everything that the Buddha has taught: it depends on one's accumulation to get it. The functions of cetasikas, as we have discussed so far, are functions that applies to a single moment of the citta. When the citta (vinnana) cognizes a concept, sanna (memory) marks that concept, and vitakka brought the nama to "touch" that concept. To study relations, one must study Patthana (conditions), something mostly beyond my grasp. Otherwise, as I have mentioned in the previous message, the tikas (commentaries to the commentaries!) describe the stages of the conceptualization. Unfortunately, I don't think it is at the level of details you are looking for. kom ps: I am appreciative of your keen observation that most of what we experience in our daily life are conceptual. We spend so much time thinking about the realities that we experience that we are not truly aware of the realities. We spend so much time being attached and being aversed to things that don't even exist in nature! 16606 From: Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Hi Kom, Is rupa a group of elements? Does citta always arise in a group of cetasikas? That is what I meant. We think of these realities as single (whole) things, but we don't experience them that way. They are anatta, fragments. Larry 16607 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" James, Thank you for your answer. I guess as I am not a full arahant, so my struggle is only natural because our mirrors have been so dirty coming from generations of dusts. I'm beginning to understand what the elders have been saying: - never to speak with conviction - keep an open mind - wisdom by hearing, wisdom by thinking, wisdom by direct experience, but ultimately one has to be freed from hearing and thinking and direct experience. metta, WL 16608 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 5:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:22 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" > > > Hi Kom, > > Is rupa a group of elements? Does citta always arise in a group of > cetasikas? That is what I meant. We think of these realities as single > (whole) things, but we don't experience them that way. They are anatta, > fragments. > > Larry Ah. Thanks for the clarification. Then, I think we are on the same page. When the citta cognizes a reality, only one specific characteristic is appearing. Citta is not cognized at the same time as cetasikas. >From my perspective, a rupa is not a group of elements, but is used to refer to: 1) a specific element, e.g., hardness, which is not nama 2) a category of elements, e.g., all the elements that are rupa Citta is harder. It is used to refer to: 1) a specific element, e.g., cognition (which is chief in all cognitive dhamma). 2) a classification of elements, e.g., all the 89 cittas 3) a collective set of both citta and cetasikas (as in rupa conditioned by citta, which really means rupa conditioned by citta and the con-ascent cetasikas) When I refer to an object that is a reality, the object is the characteristic of the reality: there is nothing beyond the characteristic of the reality. I think we are very close on the understandings of realities and concepts, but somehow, when I read what you write, I always thought you are saying something different... kom 16609 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 8:07pm Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 --- Dear Anthony, Thanks for bringing up your honest feelings about this. "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Sarah and all, I would like to appreciate and form skillful beliefs > about the Buddhist goal of parinibbana in order to feel > inspired and arouse interest in practising the path. > I would like to believe that parinibbana is full of love > and compassion like the path is rather than just an > undifferentiated peace. > I was reassured by Thanissaro's article on Nibbana which > explains that in ancient India the blowing out of a fire > was not considered to be annihilation but that the fire > became dormant and diffused throughout the cosmos. I would like to believe that the Buddha is still with us > in some way. Nibbana is not defined as non-existence. >> > ___________________ I think it is so natural that we all have different ideas about what nibbana is and what (read who) it is who gets there. Some of 'us' might hope that our suffering 'self' is anihilated at khandha parinibbana. Others hope that there will be in some non-manisfestative consciousness that carries on.. The differences in views are numerous: Mulpariyaya sutta(MN1) buddha says "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- He perceives Nibbana as Nibbana .Perceiving Nibbana as Nibbana , he conceives things about Nibbana , he conceives things in Nibbana , he conceives things coming out of Nibbana , *he conceives Nibbana as 'mine,' * he delights in Nibbana . Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.""ENDquote All this -whether of the anilhilationist end or eternalist end of the self view spectrum - comes about because self view is still anusaya(latent). Once self view is eradicated there are no more such views. Your mention of that the Buddha meant by the blowing out of the fire that it "was not considered to be annihilation but that the fire > became dormant and diffused throughout the cosmos" is creative but does not agree with the ancient commentaries - passed from India to Sri lanka. Perhaps you would be open to considering this way of understanding the simile of the fire The fuel is craving and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) the fire will soon die out(khandha parinibbana Arahant is a term useful to designate a stream of nama and rupa (past, present or future) that no longer has avijja (and hence no other defilements). Before cuti citta(death moment) arises this stream is like a fire where no more fuel is added; at cuti citta the fire is finally extinguished. It is different for a non-arahant. The term non-arahant helps to designate a stream of nama and rupa where avijja and other defilements keep arising. These are the fuel and it is continually being added to (moments of insight excepted). When cuti citta arise for this stream the fire is simply passed to another place and the process continues. robert 16610 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 8:18pm Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Antony Woods" > I would like to believe that parinibbana is full of love > and compassion like the path is rather than just an > undifferentiated peace. > I would like to believe that the Buddha is still with us > in some way. Nibbana is not defined as non-existence. ___________________________ Dear Anthony, I add some more: I think sometimes we tend to think life is good , somehow, somewhere- if not now then in the future. But life is a concept and what there is is only the five khandhas - and they are dukkha. They arise and pass away, and oppress continually because there is no one who can stop them arising again and again, never ceasing even for an instant. In the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the Buddha explained to the monks about the most fearful and terrible thing: There is indeed, monk, another darkness, greater and more fearsome. And what is that other darkness? Monk, whatsoever recluses or brahmins understand not, as it really is, the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus taking delight they compose a compound of activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus composing a compound of activities they fall down into the darkness of rebirth...and despair. They are not released from birth, and death...and despair. They are not released from dukkha, I declare. But, monk, those recluses or brahmins who do understand as it really is, the meaning of : This is dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take not delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth...They are released from dukkha, I declare. Wherefore, monk, an effort must be made to realize: This is dukkha. This is the arising of dukkha. This is the ceasing of dukkha. This is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha.' "endquote Thus perhaps rather than hoping for some pleasant state of love and compasion a motivation for the path to parinibbana is seeing it as the gradual elimination of avijja (ignorance) -as James said- and thus the breaking up of the Paticcasamuppada - the wheel of birth and death. A. III. 32 This, truly, is Peace, this is the Highest, namely the end of all Karma formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving. detachment, extinction, Nibbaana. A. I. 15 And it is impossible that a being possessed of right understanding should regard anything as the Self. S. XXII. 30 Hence the annihilation, cessation and overcoming of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness: this is the extinction of suffering, the end of disease, the overcoming of old age and death. (endsutta) From the Itivuttaka (no.38 PTS). I use Nyanaponika's translation (wheel 251/253) This was said by the Blessed one, sopken by the holy One , and thus have I heard: there are , o monks, two aspects of Nibbana; the Nibbana element with the groups of existence still remainin (saupadisesa-nibbanadhatu) and the Nibbana-element with no groups remaining (anupadisesa -nibbana dhatu). What is the Nibbana element with groups of existence still remaing? in that case , o monks, a monk is an arahant; he is taint free..but there still remain with him(until death) the five sense organs that have not yet disappeared and through which he still experiences what is pleasant and unpleasant, as well as bodily ease and pain. The extinction of greed, hatred and delusion in him, this is called the nibbana element with the groups of existence still remaining. And what is the Nibbana-element with no groups remaining? In that case a monk is an arahant..in him those feelings no longer relished , will even here (at his death) come to extinction. This is called the Nibbana-element with no groups of existence remaining. End Quote Robert 16611 From: antony272b2 Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 2:30am Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 Dear Robert (Robert K?), Thanks for your detailed responses. I can now appreciate that Nibbana is not aesthetically pleasing and I've read that it seems painful to the ordinary worldling. Maybe grieving the disappearance of the Buddha is just grieving suffering phenomena. Maybe the Buddha was not just a "nice" teacher but really demanded his disciples put their lives on the line. There were no smiley faces in your posts which remind me of the late Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw in their seriousness (I have his photo on my wall and formatted his comprehensive work on paticcasamuppada: ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/therabud/mahasipt.zip I'm rather shocked and will close this post for now. with respect / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Anthony, > I add some more: > I think sometimes we tend to think life is good , somehow, somewhere- > if not now then in the future. > But life is a concept and what there is is only the five khandhas - and > they are dukkha. They arise and pass away, and oppress continually > because there is no one who can stop them arising again and again, > never ceasing even for an instant. > In the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred > Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the > Buddha explained to the monks about the most fearful and terrible thing: 16612 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 5:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi James, > > I think anything within a Theravada context is on topic. "Fear" seems > like a good one to me. What's on your mind? > > Larry Larry, Related to this topic of concepts and how they shape our world; I am thinking more and more that most of the suffering and stress (dukkha) in our modern world is caused by fear and terror rather than craving and desire. These are my initial thoughts, not fully formed, but I wouldn't mind sharing. Before I delve into the reasons I am thinking this, let me quote one of my favorite sections from the suttas, the: Bhaya-bherava Sutta; Fear & Terror "The thought occurred to me: 'When priests or contemplatives who are drooling idiots, resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings, it's the fault of their drooling idiocy that they give rise to unskillful fear & terror. But it's not the case that I am a drooling idiot, when I resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. I am consummate in discernment." This part delights me for two reasons: 1. The Buddha uses the term `drooling idiots' to describe some holy men/contemplatives/monks. Hmmm…very telling about his outlook concerning the sacrosanct, a time for harsh speech, etc., but I won't comment further 2. The Buddha gives the very simple and straightforward solution/cure to fear and terror (but not so easy to follow): Discernment. I am very interested in the Evolutionary Psychology theories of emotions and believe that fear is one emotion that, in our ever- changing, complicated society, is in overdrive. Fear, from an evolutionary perspective, served a very valuable purpose: it saved your neck! Fear allowed a person to respond quickly to dangerous situations, unfamiliar situations, and unexpected situations. And this response of fear is hardwired into us to activate whenever we feel threatened, unsure, confronted, unsafe, etc. Unfortunately, the level of fear in today's world, in my estimation, is higher than during the Buddha's time...and usually unnecessary fear. What is the difference between our modern society and the society of the Buddha? Just a few examples, in ancient India they did not have: cars, airplanes, telephones, computers, television, atomic bombs, credit cards, guns, public education, national debt, HMOs, serial killers, toxic waste, pollution, high divorce rate, neglected elderly, suicidal terrorists, etc, etc, etc,….get the picture? Our world is a LOT more stressful and unsure than the Buddha's was. The result is that we live with a lot of fear and insecurity. Additionally, something interesting happens when we do finally get ourselves into a secure job, house, minimal debt, nice family etc.; we usually create problems where there are none so that we can be afraid of them. We get so accustomed to feeling fear that we cannot seem to be `content' unless it is constantly running in the background of our minds. This `fear factor' is so strong in people that I don't know a single person, other than myself, who can easily go to sleep at night. Fear, terror, and anxiety will keep running even when the day is finished. Lately, I have been observing my own fear throughout the day and the fear I believe I see in others due to their actions, words, facial expressions, body language, etc. (purely subjective I know). It seems that `fear' is a way of life in this modern world and occurs much more frequently than desire or craving. After all, a lot of our modern conveniences have met a lot of our daily needs and desires…all except our need to feel safe and secure. As the Buddha said, we should use the faculty of `Discernment' to reduce this escalating fear (not tranquilizers, anti-anxiety medication, booze, or drugs; as are most often used nowadays). We should closely examine ourselves throughout the day, observe the emotions and reactions we have to our daily lives, and note the number of times we feel fear. Then, with discernment, determine if the fear is worth having. And most of the time, fear is not worth having unless a person is being attacked or threatened, or is in physical danger somehow. If the fear is not worth having, we should drop it! Rationally tell the mind not to be afraid, why there is no fear present/no danger around so there is no 'need' for the fear response, and the fear will usually go away (of course it may be back again in a few minutes, but it will take practice to keep taming it). This is one thing that we all can do, which doesn't require meditation practice, and will greatly enrich the quality and fullness of our lives. Metta, James ps. I know this is not as 'scholarly' as most of the posts here. My apologies. But I thought that some might benefit from it, or add a more 'Buddhist Scholarship' to it; or disprove it, which is fine also. 16613 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 5:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa: To KKT Dear KKT You wrote the following. "...since one meaning of atta is that something << exists by itself >> and is << independent >> of other things." I wonder if you could post those meanings of atta in Pali or Sanskrit when you have spare time. I will like to check them side by side with the meanings of nibbana in that Udaana passage. Thanking in advance. With kind regards Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "phamdluan2000" wrote: Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Rahula - Any interpretation which views nibbana as atta is, I believe, heretical, and the Dhammakaya Buddhist Meditation Institute's taking that position causes me to wonder about that organization. The Buddha's teachings are generally quite precise, and his using 'sankhara' twice, once with 'anicca' and once with 'dukkha', but then changing to 'dhamma' with regard to 'anatta' is quite unlikely to be unintentional. With metta, Howard KKT: A definition of Nibbana from the Udana: O bhikkhus, there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned. Were there not the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, there would be no escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. Since there is the unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned, so there is escape for the born, grown, and conditioned. This definition could easily lead one to think that Nibbana is atta since one meaning of atta is that something << exists by itself >> and is << independent >> of other things. If Nibbana is << unborn, ungrown, and unconditioned >> then isn't Nibbana << existing by itself >> and << independent >> of everything? I raise this question not because I want to defend the atta doctrine but because I want to show that this matter is not easily to clinch. Peace, KKT 16614 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 6:02am Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 --- --- Dear Antony (BTW sorry for mispelling your name last post), I really appreciate your honesty in your letters. I certainly can't compare with the austerity and seriousness of any monks - particularly one like the venerable Mahasi . In fact I met 4 Korean girls at the pool today and we are all going out for dinner (but no wine, at least for me) in a couple of hours. So while I can write about and understand a little of what Dukkha means I am still very much entranced by the pleasant sights, sounds, tastes, smells, touch and mental objects of this world. I know they are dukkha at one level but I also know that it takes time for avijja (ignorance ) to be eliminated. There is so much accumulated tanha(desire) and avijja that to want to get rid of them fast is scary - and not really possible. But the avijja and tanha (as upadana) that arise in conjunction with wrongview are the most dangerous and these types can definitely be attenuated to whatever degree is suitable (to our accumulations) in this life. When you indicate the Dhamma requires us to put our lives on the line I think this is true in the sense that we may come to the day when we really surrender to the Buddha and dhamma and sangha. But it hinges on anatta becuase I think what this surrender means is giving up the idea of self. And that gradually. kind regards Robert K. In dhammastudygroup@y..., "antony272b2" wrote: > Dear Robert (Robert K?), > > Thanks for your detailed responses. > > I can now appreciate that Nibbana is not aesthetically pleasing and > I've read that it seems painful to the ordinary worldling. > > Maybe grieving the disappearance of the Buddha is just grieving > suffering phenomena. > > Maybe the Buddha was not just a "nice" teacher but really demanded > his disciples put their lives on the line. There were no smiley faces > in your posts which remind me of the late Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw in > their seriousness (I have his photo on my wall and formatted his > comprehensive work on paticcasamuppada: > ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/therabud/mahasipt.zip > > I'm rather shocked and will close this post for now. > with respect / Antony. > 16615 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 6:06am Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 Anthony, If I may comment on this spiritual angst you are so honorably expressing in a truthful way: --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "antony272b2" wrote: > Dear Robert (Robert K?), > > Thanks for your detailed responses. > > I can now appreciate that Nibbana is not aesthetically pleasing and > I've read that it seems painful to the ordinary worldling. (The Buddha said that we are all on fire with dukkha. We are burning, burning, burning, suffering, suffering, suffering...and Nibbana is when the fire is finally put out. I find that very aesthetically pleasing. Nibbana is not painful; it is the opposite of painful. It is pure joy, love, peace, acceptance, wisdom, understanding, etc. It is a light of purity that will fill your heart and mind with everlasting peace. It is the the best there is, nothing higher. Parinibbana is this, even more so! The last fetters, defilements, and karma have been dropped away. Is there 'existence' after Nibbana. The Buddha refused to have a view on this or to answer; he said it wasn't important. But, he very specifically said that it wasn't a complete 'nothing' or 'void'. So it doesn't take much logic to determine that it must be something. What is it? I am not sure of course, but when I think of this, for some reason, I always think of that line from '2001; A Space Oddessey', "It's Full of Stars." > > Maybe grieving the disappearance of the Buddha is just grieving > suffering phenomena. (Some may think I am crazy for saying this; but that wouldn't be a first for me. :-) I believe that the Buddha visited me once during a meditation. I specifically could feel his presence with me, and I could feel that it was pure love and acceptance like I have never felt before. And I could 'hear' his thoughts in my mind to go to Thailand and discover if I wanted to become a monk or not. And he was right. I didn't become one, but I learned a lot in the process. I think the Buddha is still out there, and in there, and everywhere. :-) Smile! :-) You already know this! Trust your feelings. Love, James > Maybe the Buddha was not just a "nice" teacher but really demanded > his disciples put their lives on the line. There were no smiley faces > in your posts which remind me of the late Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw in > their seriousness (I have his photo on my wall and formatted his > comprehensive work on paticcasamuppada: > ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/therabud/mahasipt.zip > > I'm rather shocked and will close this post for now. > with respect / Antony. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear Anthony, > > I add some more: > > I think sometimes we tend to think life is good , somehow, > somewhere- > > if not now then in the future. > > But life is a concept and what there is is only the five khandhas - > and > > they are dukkha. They arise and pass away, and oppress continually > > because there is no one who can stop them arising again and again, > > never ceasing even for an instant. > > In the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred > > Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the > > Buddha explained to the monks about the most fearful and terrible > thing: > 16616 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana1 Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/1/02 11:08:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > The fuel is craving > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once > that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) > the fire will soon die out(khandha parinibbana > Arahant is a term useful to designate a stream of nama and rupa > (past, present or future) that no longer has avijja (and hence > no other defilements). > Before cuti citta(death moment) arises this stream is like a > fire where no > more fuel is added; at cuti citta the fire is finally > extinguished. > ============================ How, please, is that different from the atheist/materialist annihilationist picture of death? [Unless, of course, the cessation of namarupa is not the cessation of awareness in *every* possible sense, but only of a particular, dualistic sort of defiled awareness flowing out of unexpired kamma.] Some people will answer that this would be an annihilationist view only if to begin with there is a self which is annihilated at death. But I find that response to be inadequate, because a complete cessation of awareness in every possible sense, even a non-samsaric sense, is annihilationist enough for me. It seems to me that the passages in the Udana and elsewhere suggest a meaning for nibbana that is something else, something that is neither the becoming of the worlding nor the nothingness of absolute death. And, in fact, throughout the Sutta Pitaka, the most common characterizations of nibbana are that it is the end of dukkha and the end of the three poisons. Also, it seems to me that if the death-simile for nibbana had been the core understanding presented by the Buddha, it would have led to words other than 'Buddha' and 'bodhi' - it would have led to words which instead of denoting an awakened one and the awakened state would signify nothingness and annihilation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16617 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear Hi, James - In a message dated 11/2/02 8:44:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Bhaya-bherava Sutta; > Fear &Terror > > "The thought occurred to me: 'When priests or contemplatives who are > drooling idiots, resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings, > it's the fault of their drooling idiocy that they give rise to > unskillful fear &terror. But it's not the case that I am a drooling > idiot, when I resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. I am > consummate in discernment." > > This part delights me for two reasons: 1. The Buddha uses the > term `drooling idiots' to describe some holy > men/contemplatives/monks. Hmmm…very telling about his outlook > concerning the sacrosanct, a time for harsh speech, etc., but I won't > comment further ======================== That is a buddha speaking. When we are buddhas/arahants, and the circumstances are suitable, perhaps we will speak that way as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16618 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 7:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear Howard, Oops...I was hoping you wouldn't notice that! hehehe... I am not sure if I agree with your perspective; after all, would it matter to those being referred to as 'drooling idiots' if a Buddha said it or not? Probably not, after all, they are drooling idiots! hehehe... Smile, it was not sour grapes. I was just making a general comment about our society and world. Ever since going to Thailand, my eyes have been opened to the abuses of religious power, everywhere. I believe the sacrosanct is becoming a strong hinderance to following the Buddhist path in today's Buddhism, but that may be the Zen in me. However, I am entitled to my opinion. What did you think of the rest of the post? I would value your input. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 11/2/02 8:44:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > Bhaya-bherava Sutta; > > Fear &Terror > > > > "The thought occurred to me: 'When priests or contemplatives who are > > drooling idiots, resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings, > > it's the fault of their drooling idiocy that they give rise to > > unskillful fear &terror. But it's not the case that I am a drooling > > idiot, when I resort to isolated forest or wilderness dwellings. I am > > consummate in discernment." > > > > This part delights me for two reasons: 1. The Buddha uses the > > term `drooling idiots' to describe some holy > > men/contemplatives/monks. Hmmm…very telling about his outlook > > concerning the sacrosanct, a time for harsh speech, etc., but I won't > > comment further > ======================== > That is a buddha speaking. When we are buddhas/arahants, and the > circumstances are suitable, perhaps we will speak that way as well. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > 16619 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear Hi, James - In a message dated 11/2/02 10:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Howard, > Oops...I was hoping you wouldn't notice that! hehehe... I am not > sure if I agree with your perspective; after all, would it matter to > those being referred to as 'drooling idiots' if a Buddha said it or > not? Probably not, after all, they are drooling idiots! hehehe... > > Smile, it was not sour grapes. I was just making a general comment > about our society and world. Ever since going to Thailand, my eyes > have been opened to the abuses of religious power, everywhere. I > believe the sacrosanct is becoming a strong hinderance to following > the Buddhist path in today's Buddhism, but that may be the Zen in > me. However, I am entitled to my opinion. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. As far as bhikkhus are concerned, it is obviously true that becoming a bhikkhu does not automatically make one "holy". Not all bhikkhus are admirable, but all should be accorded respect out of respect for the position, out of respect for the institution of the sangha. ----------------------------------------------- > What did you think of the > rest of the post? I would value your input. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that aversion, with fear, anger, hatred etc as special cases, is a more harmful category of defilement than craving. (Of course, aversion is a kind of craving - craving for absence/cessation.) More generally, there has been much in your recent posts that appeals to me, especially the "sense of life" it reflects. [Just my opinion.] ------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, James ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16620 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:59am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 11/2/02 10:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > Howard, > > Oops...I was hoping you wouldn't notice that! hehehe... I am not > > sure if I agree with your perspective; after all, would it matter to > > those being referred to as 'drooling idiots' if a Buddha said it or > > not? Probably not, after all, they are drooling idiots! hehehe... > > > > Smile, it was not sour grapes. I was just making a general comment > > about our society and world. Ever since going to Thailand, my eyes > > have been opened to the abuses of religious power, everywhere. I > > believe the sacrosanct is becoming a strong hinderance to following > > the Buddhist path in today's Buddhism, but that may be the Zen in > > me. However, I am entitled to my opinion. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly. As far as bhikkhus are concerned, it is obviously true that > becoming a bhikkhu does not automatically make one "holy". Not all bhikkhus > are admirable, but all should be accorded respect out of respect for the > position, out of respect for the institution of the sangha. James: Hmmmm...I think I understand your position a bit more clear now. Not sure if I completely agree; but it is definitely admirable. Those who follow pure principles are becoming more and more rare nowadays. However, my thinking is that this position can lead to a 'slippery slope' of religious corruption. I believe more in the Buddha's system of 'Checks and Balances'. He supported that the behavior and practice of a monk should determine if he is affored 'respect' and should be 'worthy of gifts', not his position in the Sangha. Tough issue, but the future of Buddhism depends on it. > ----------------------------------------------- > > > What did you think of the > > rest of the post? I would value your input. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree that aversion, with fear, anger, hatred etc as special cases, > is a more harmful category of defilement than craving. (Of course, aversion > is a kind of craving - craving for absence/cessation.) More generally, there > has been much in your recent posts that appeals to me, especially the "sense > of life" it reflects. [Just my opinion.] James: *Blush, Blush* Thank you for the kind words. Yes, of course fear is a form of aversion, which is actually craving. But most don't see it that way. I was suggesting a new way to look at the original teachings. Nothing new here really, still all goes back to the Buddha. Thankfully, the Buddha's teachings are timeless and complete as they are. As I study the Abihdhamma more and ponder it more, I am starting to view it as an over-intellectualization of the Buddha's profound, yet simple, teachings. But I could be biased. The jury is still not in with me. :-) Metta, James > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > Metta, James > ========================== > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > 16621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 9:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, . Pali texts co and subco. Dear Larry, you quoted: In the commentary it is said that by way of remembering and of meeting in one thing, the Arousing of Mindfulness is only one; and that it is fourfold when regarded as a subject of meditation. [Tika} "By way of remembering": by way of the reflection of actions of skill, and so forth, of body, speech, and thought. [T] "Meeting in one thing" = union in the one-natured Nibbana. Nina: Pali of Co: a.t.thakathaaya.m pana sara.navasena (because of remembering) ceva ekattasamosara.navasena (because meeting, associating in unity) ca ekameva satipa.t.thaana.m (satip is one) aaramma.navasena (because of the objects) cattaaroti etadeva vutta.m (it is said to be fourfold). subcommentary: sara.navasenaati kaayaadiina.m kusalaadidhammaana~nca upadhaara.navasena. N: because of remembrance, it is said. And because of consideration of kusala dhammas through the body, etc. saranti gacchanti nibbaana.m etaayaati satiiti N:They recollect, they go to nibbana, by means of this, namely, sati. imasmi.m atthe ekatte ekasabhaave nibbaane samosara.na.m samaagamo ekattasamosara.na.m. N: as to this meaning there is a coming together, in unity, in nibbana with one nature, an assembling in unity. (this is coarse. I am grateful you press me on the Pali texts Jim took so much trouble to give to me.) You remember the post before about recollecting by sati: I quoted the Co to the Sekha-sutta (M. 53): the Papa~ncasuudanii. > The words: discrimination, remembering, recollecting what he has done and said long > ago.> .... the words done long ago (carikata.mpi): the > development of > the practice, namely, the eighty religious duties (vatta), such as the > duties of the shrine terrace, which someone does himself or which others > do > long ago, through bodily action the words said long ago (caribhaasita.mpi): words which someone > himself has spoken or others have spoken long ago.> The Co gives > examples of > extending merit, anumodana, meetings, teaching, etc. > The words remembering and recollecting are explained in English in my > PTs > edition: saritaa, remembering once, and anusaritaa, remembering again > and > again. > The Co speaks again about kamma through body and speech, explaining that > kamma through the body done long ago, means, through body-intimation ( > the > rupa which is kayavi~n~natti) and kamma through speech, done long ago, > means, through speech-intimation (the rupa which is vaci-vi~n~natti). It > explains that there are ruupa, citta and cetasika, thus, rupa dhammas > and > arupa dhammas: there should be awareness of them as: they arise thus, > they > fall away thus. Here sati as factor of enlightenment has been explained, > according to the co. It states that by this kind of sati the ariyan > disciple > knows: because > there can be awareness often.>End quote of Co. I have a question to Rob K: Rob, you said that this kind of remembrance is a wholesome accumulation which can condition the arising of sati now. I like to hear more, could you take it up with A. Sujin? I understand that the accumulation of the inclination to kusala is a support, but what is the role of this kind of remembrance? We may not remember at all the kusala we did. Larry, you asked about meditation subjects: did people ask the Buddha? Yes. We see in the Co about the daily routine of the Buddha: they came to ask him kammatthanas. We have to understand this in the right way. The Buddha, before his enlightenment, was taught meditation subjects leading to rupajhana and arupajhana, but he found out: this is not the way. Would he after his enlightenmennt merely teach in the same way as his teachers taught him before his enlightenment? No. He taught that even jhanacitta should not be taken for self, that there must be awareness of one nama or rupa at a time as it appears now through one of the six dooways. Insight must be developed, otherwise no way leading to the end of the cycle. Thus he taught to Rahula: how can mindfulness of breathing be of great benefit? He taught Rahula first mindfulness of breathing and then about the elements. Also the Co (as I quoted before): what is the kammatthana leading to arahatship: the khandhas, the dhatus (elements), the ayatanas. Eventually all namas and rupas which appear now have to be thoroughly known as they are. Thus, when reading in the satipatthana sutta about the different meditation subjects, we should understand this in the right way. The Buddha gave these subjects a totally new dimension, a different, a higher meaning. The Buddha would not omit teaching the four noble Truths he had penetrated when he became the Sammasambuddha. He continued to teach the one way, the best way. I read in the subco. a passage about the many aspects of the one way, and now we can understand this in the right sense: naanaamukhabhaavanaanayappavattoti kaayaanupassanaadimukhena tatthaapi aanaapaanaadimukhena bhaavanaanayena pavatto. ekaayananti ekagaamina.m, nibbaanagaaminanti attho. nibbaana~nhi adutiyattaa se.t.thattaa ca ``eka''nti vuccati. N: naanaamukhabhaavanaanayappavattoti: mukha: face or aspect. the method of precedure has many aspects of development, a procedure of methods with the aspect of mindfulness of body etc., and also mindfulness of breathing, etc. One way, one course, meaning, it goes to nibbana. Nibbana is not two, and it is the best (settho), it is said that it is one. This is a coarse translation, I wellcome corrections. With appreciation for your study and all the considering of what you are reading, Nina. op 01-11-2002 01:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > In the commentary it is said that by way of remembering and of meeting > in one thing, the Arousing of Mindfulness is only one; and that it is > fourfold when regarded as a subject of meditation. > > [Tika} "By way of remembering": by way of the reflection of actions of > skill, and so forth, of body, speech, and thought. > Does anyone have the pali version of this? I was wondering if "skill" is > a translation of kusala. If so it would reinforce previous research that > indicates "sati" is the recollection of ethical considerations. 16622 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation"...include fear Hi James, I agree "fear" is an important topic and I can say from experience it is the cause of many a sleepless night. It came up in the Satipatthana Sutta Commentary and we have been discussing it in this thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16375 A related essay by Bhikkhu Bodhi can be found at Access To Insight if you search for "Subrahma". Both hope and fear are based on the concept that there is something to gain or loose. best wishes, Larry 16623 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, . Pali texts co and subco. Hi Nina, Thanks very much for the detailed reply concerning sati as recollection of kusala. I am still uneasy about my understanding of this. I've been calling it recollection of ethical considerations but I don't think "ethical" is quite the right word. "Ethical" is too narrowly concerned with interpersonal relations, while "kusala" is very broadly, as you translate, "wholesome". I guess for now I will be satisfied with simply saying sati is recollection of kusala and satipatthana is directing that kusala toward nibbana, unless you have some qualms about this. best wishes, Larry 16624 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 Hi Antony, I've been trying to find something to cheer you up. This (below) was in my mailbox. It's from another (semiVedanta) group, but it may do the trick. Larry ---------------- On that day, I truly realized how ordinary I was in every way and it filled my heart with gladness and joy. And knowing my own Heart, and realizing that it was the One Heart, all the scriptures made sense, and all the teachings lost their hold. Over time, it seemed like my heart was some leaky faucet that could no longer be contained with love seeping out in drips.... little drops, little drops, big drops...... If we see clearly with the mind, the nature of the mind, we see that the ordinary mind is the Buddha Mind. So there is not much to do but to breathe in and breathe out in gratitude, love, and awareness and go about your daily life. Love to all Harsha 16625 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 11:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" Dear James, Welcome to DSG. I don't agree on everything you say, but I am appreciative of your interests. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: James [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:34 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" > > > Larry and Kom, > 16626 From: James Mitchell Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 0:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" --- Kom Tukovinit <kom@a...> wrote: > Dear James, > > Welcome to DSG. I don't agree on everything you > say, but I > am appreciative of your interests. > > kom Kom, Thank you for the welcome and accepting my participation in your discussion. I especially appreciate this type of disagreement. It is less nit-picky, showy, and gentler than most. Take care. Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16627 From: James Mitchell Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 0:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear James, > > Welcome to DSG. I don't agree on everything you > say, but I > am appreciative of your interests. > > kom Hi Kom, Thank you for the welcome and accepting my participation in your discussion. I especially appreciate this type of disagreement. It is less nit-picky, showy, and gentler than most. Take care. Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16628 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 2:35pm Subject: Re: to appreciate Buddhist goal of parinibbana2 Hi Antony, and All, Possibly, I'm feeling a little more samvega than usual today, so forgive me if I say that I'm glad you are shocked. :) Being shocked is very good - It makes you think - even if only to try to understand what shocks you and why, and refute it. Hopefully, eventually, you'll thank RobK for being the condition for your shock. Shock can wake us up. I've been shocked on and off by various posts ever since finding out that Buddhism wasn't a sweet and gentle, warm and fuzzy, touchy/feely, way to worldly happiness, with a ticket to heaven-by-another-name attached. Buddhism is a sure and certain way out of Samsara, the relentless Round of Becoming. But only if you find the true Path and then only if you walk on it. That is all the Blessed One came to teach - Impermanence, Unsatisfactoriness, No-self - and the Pathway out. It is up to us whether we realise our incredible good fortune at being born as a human while the Dhamma still exists in the world. It is up to us to follow the true Teachings and make it to the Exit, or swirl away in the stream for uncountable suffering lives in various forms again. There is no everloving Buddha/God/Brahma/Ground of All Being who will personally rescue us. The Buddha left his Teachings for us. Each of us could die tomorrow, and who knows when we would find this Dhamma again. There is no guaranteed step by step progression in each life. Meaning well is not enough. There is no special protection for a good bloke like you or a great shiela like me :), it is just as possible for us to tumble way, way back as it has been for anyone anywhere in the world throughout beginningless time. The extinguishing of the defilements and the accumulation of wisdom and insight is difficult, wasting time on what we 'wish' or 'would like to believe' the Buddha meant is dangerous, there are no guarantees about protection from harm or length of life - hence the Buddha urged us to practice 'as if our hair was on fire'. I find it easy to see impermanence, easy to see suffering - but the hardest of all is Anatta. Most of this post is really me talking to myself, and I hope I haven't offended. Thank you for being the condition for my reflections. much metta and karuna, Antony Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "antony272b2" wrote: > Dear Robert (Robert K?), > > Thanks for your detailed responses. > > I can now appreciate that Nibbana is not aesthetically pleasing and > I've read that it seems painful to the ordinary worldling. > > Maybe grieving the disappearance of the Buddha is just grieving > suffering phenomena. > > Maybe the Buddha was not just a "nice" teacher but really demanded > his disciples put their lives on the line. There were no smiley faces > in your posts which remind me of the late Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw in > their seriousness (I have his photo on my wall and formatted his > comprehensive work on paticcasamuppada: > ftp://ftp.buddhanet.net/therabud/mahasipt.zip > > I'm rather shocked and will close this post for now. > with respect / Antony. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > Dear Anthony, > > I add some more: > > I think sometimes we tend to think life is good , somehow, > somewhere- > > if not now then in the future. > > But life is a concept and what there is is only the five khandhas - > and > > they are dukkha. They arise and pass away, and oppress continually > > because there is no one who can stop them arising again and again, > > never ceasing even for an instant. > > In the 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred > > Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the > > Buddha explained to the monks about the most fearful and terrible > thing: > 16629 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 5:36pm Subject: Buddha's gradual instruction Dear Christine, Robert K and all, Our experience of the Buddha's teachings is very different to that of the Buddha's time. We can read volumes of the Buddha's words but cannot talk to him in person. In Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary I found the Buddha's gradual instruction i.e. dana, sila, heaven, drawback of sensual pleasures, renunciation; and then when (and maybe only when) "the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas, that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html So for people at a stage which is far from elevated and lucid the Buddha may not have even mentioned the word dukkha at all, maybe because it could be misunderstood as saying that they have a self that is suffering, that they are a failure etc. etc. Thanks for listening, Antony. anupubbi-katha: 'gradual instruction', progressive sermon; given by the Buddha when it was necessary to prepare first the listener's mind before speaking to him on the advanced teaching of the Four Noble Truths. The stock passage (e.g. D. 3; D 14; M. 56) runs as follows: "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, he spoke on liberality ('giving', dana, q.v.), on moral conduct (sila) and on the heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. When the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhanam samukkamsika desana), that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm 16630 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 6:39pm Subject: Re: Buddha's gradual instruction --- Dear Anthony, Yes this is a good point. In the Netti-pakarana it says (from memory) that the Buddha at times taught reward, at times danger and at other times both reward and danger (I forget the exact words)depending on the needs of the listener. One of the advantages of studying broadly is that one will find passages that seem to speak directly to us. Other passages may seem redundant or unhelpful so we need to learn how to pass those by without feeling daunted or annoyed by them. And who knows whether they might be useful in future times. I think the heart of the Dhamma points to the direct insight into the characteristics of the presently arising dhamma, so it isn't strictly necessary to study so many details. And yet if there isn't sufficient wisom to insight dhammas then how can it develop without some study to attentuate the avijja and clinging to wrongview that blocks insight. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Christine, Robert K and all, > > Our experience of the Buddha's teachings is very different > to that of the Buddha's time. We can read volumes of the > Buddha's words but cannot talk to him in person. In > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary I found the Buddha's > gradual instruction i.e. dana, sila, heaven, drawback of > sensual pleasures, renunciation; and then when (and maybe > only when) "the Blessed One perceived that the listener's > mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated > and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching > particular to the Buddhas, that is: suffering, its cause, > its ceasing, and the path." > plans/2monthsfree.asp 16631 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 18, Comm. [Tika] Drawing distinctions, it is said: Body and feeling are the cause of zest [assadassa karana]. Hi all, What does assadassa mean? Is it the same as piti ('joyful interest')? thanks, Larry 16632 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 7:38pm Subject: Parenthetical Citations Hello Friends, I have a question for this group of scholars. I am quite confused about the uniform way to cite Buddhist scripture in parenthetical citations. For example, I went to the Buddhist Dictionary Antony hyperlinked and I found this type of parenthetical cite: (See A. VI, 102; A. VII, 48; Ud. IV, 1; S. XXII, 102) I don't know how to read this to find these references. I checked my MLA Handbook and it doesn't give examples for Buddhist scripture, only the Bible; and the above example isn't comparable to those examples. Of course my copy of the MLA Handbook isn't one of the newest ones. Is the standard for Buddhist scripture in the newest Handbook? Can anyone tell me a resource for how to read these parenthetical citations? Thank you in advance for any help offered. Metta, James 16633 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 7:57pm Subject: Re: Parenthetical Citations Hi James, I get equally confused at times. Most hard copy Texts have a list in the front citing which edition, translation, and publisher they are using. It differs from author to author. For instance, recently I was feeling frustrated at reading "An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics" because Peter Harvey has used different translations of the Nikayas to the ones I have at home or can access on the Net. (It would have been SO much easier if he had 'named' the Suttas instead of using the page numbers of his editions...) An example of the system of abbreviations that one respected on-line dictionary uses can be found at: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/abbreviations.html metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Hello Friends, > > I have a question for this group of scholars. I am quite confused > about the uniform way to cite Buddhist scripture in parenthetical > citations. For example, I went to the Buddhist Dictionary Antony > hyperlinked and I found this type of parenthetical cite: > (See A. VI, 102; A. VII, 48; Ud. IV, 1; S. XXII, 102) > > I don't know how to read this to find these references. I checked > my MLA Handbook and it doesn't give examples for Buddhist scripture, > only the Bible; and the above example isn't comparable to those > examples. Of course my copy of the MLA Handbook isn't one of the > newest ones. Is the standard for Buddhist scripture in the newest > Handbook? Can anyone tell me a resource for how to read these > parenthetical citations? Thank you in advance for any help offered. > > Metta, James 16634 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 19, Comm. Further these Four Arousings of Mindfulness were taught not only for the purpose of casting out the four illusions, but for getting rid of the four floods, bonds, outflowings, knots, clingings, wrong courses, and the penetration of fourfold nutriment, too. This is according to the method of exegesis in the Nettipakarana. Hi all, Here is something from Visuddhimagga XIV par. 226: And in particular, one who sees internal materiality as foul (ugly) fully understands nutriment consisting of physical nutriment. He abandons the perversion [of perceiving] beauty in the foul (ugly), he crosses the flood of sense desire, he is loosed from the bond of sense desire, he becomes canker free as regards the canker of sense desire, he breaks the bodily tie of covetousness. He does not cling with sense-desire clinging. One who sees feeling as pain fully understands nutriment consisting of contact. He abandons the perversion of perceiving pleasure in the painful. He crosses the flood of becoming. He is loosed from the bond of becoming. He becomes caker free as regards the canker of becoming. He breaks the bodily tie of ill-will. He does not cling with rites-and-ritual clinging. One who sees perception and formations as not-self fully understands nutriment consisting of mental volition. He abandons the perversion of perceiving self in the not-self. He crosses the flood of views. He is loosed from the bond of views. He breaks the bodiy tie of interpretations (insistence) that 'This is the truth'. He does not cling with self-theory clinging. One who sees consciousness as impermanent fully understands nutriment consisting of consciousness. He abandons the perversion of perceiving permanence in the impermanent. He crosses the flood of ignorance. He is loosed from the bond of ignorance. He breaks the bodily tie of holding to rites and rituals. He does not [cling with false-] view clinging. -----------------end quote L: So seeing consciousness as impermanent, perception and formation as not self, feeling as pain, and internal materiality as foul is, in brief, the sum total of the vipassana aspect of satipatthana. Correct? Larry note: the above listing of the 4 satipatthanas is slightly out of order, i.e., body, feeling, dhamma, consciousness. 16635 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:05pm Subject: Re: Buddha's gradual instruction Hi Antony, Thanks for your reply - I came to Buddhism accidently via a short meditation course, heard the Dhamma and stayed because it talked about Dukkha, and had an explanation of Dukkha. Afterwards, kamma and rebirth seemed naturally to fit, and I can accept anatta, so far only intellectually. But from the foundation of the Teachings on Dukkha all else flows. Dukkha seemed the most obvious, unavoidable, and up until then, inexplicable fact in the world. I feel the Buddha would have had to have taught on that topic at all levels - Suffering, from all sorts of causes, would have been so extremely apparent. Then, as now, Suffering and Impermanence would have been the major cause for people to think beyond a life of hedonism. I was a Christian prior to needing to find a solution to Suffering - plenty of agape (love), morality, compassion, and community with the Christians. I was happy there, and found no need to change, until I couldn't buy their explanation for Suffering. I remember the answer a respected meditation/Dhamma teacher gave when asked why there weren't very many teenagers in the Dhamma class - "They haven't suffered enough yet. They still believe they're ten foot tall and bullet proof." A good point though not to judge others experience by ones own. Nice 'reading' you, Antony. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear Christine, Robert K and all, > > Our experience of the Buddha's teachings is very different > to that of the Buddha's time. We can read volumes of the > Buddha's words but cannot talk to him in person. In > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary I found the Buddha's > gradual instruction i.e. dana, sila, heaven, drawback of > sensual pleasures, renunciation; and then when (and maybe > only when) "the Blessed One perceived that the listener's > mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated > and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching > particular to the Buddhas, that is: suffering, its cause, > its ceasing, and the path." > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html > > So for people at a stage which is far from elevated and > lucid the Buddha may not have even mentioned the word > dukkha at all, maybe because it could be misunderstood as > saying that they have a self that is suffering, that they > are a failure etc. etc. > > Thanks for listening, > Antony. > > > anupubbi-katha: 'gradual instruction', progressive sermon; given by the > Buddha when it was necessary to prepare first the listener's mind > before speaking to him on the advanced teaching of the Four Noble > Truths. The stock passage (e.g. D. 3; D 14; M. 56) runs as follows: > "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, > he spoke on liberality ('giving', dana, q.v.), on moral conduct (sila) > and on the heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the > depravity of sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. When > the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, > pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to > him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhanam > samukkamsika desana), that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and > the path." > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm 16636 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:16pm Subject: Re: PERFECTIONS Thank you Christine, you really are a helpful person. I now have all those posts pasted into one document. (Thanks also to Nina, by the way.) Just one mistake: For Ch 3 No 8, you have given message 14646 where it should be 14644. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear group, (esp. Azita), > > I have typed a listing of the postings Nina has made of her > translations of "Perfections" by A. Sujin, with hyperlinks, in case > anyone joined in on the series late and would like an easy reference > for reading. Hope there are no errors. The Links for Chapters 1 to > 5 16637 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:27pm Subject: Re: PERFECTIONS Thanks for letting me know KenH - I've fixed my copy and will make a note when I post the next installment. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "kenhowardau" wrote: > Thank you Christine, you really are a helpful person. I > now have all those posts pasted into one document. > (Thanks also to Nina, by the way.) > > Just one mistake: For Ch 3 No 8, you have given message > 14646 where it should be 14644. > > Ken H 16638 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 8:36pm Subject: Buddhism message ****************************************************** Hi everyone, My name is Jan Chearavanont and I am 11 years old.I live in Hong Kong but my dad is Thai and my mom is Korean. My first languge is English and Thai and my second languge is Chinese but im not so good at speaking or writing in chinese. Unfotunatly I dont speak Korean so I might learn that is the future. Last year I was learning about different types of religons such as Buddhism and so Mrs Abbott,my english tutor said that mabye I can write a small message to everyone who is intrested in the descussion group. Recently one of my teachers past away from the Bali Bomb , his name was Mr Wash-till...i was quite upset about it. I always belived in recarnation and so i always think that Mr. Wash-till would recarnate and i might even get to see him in his future life. I hope to hear from you. Jan De Liver De Letter De Sooner De Better De Later De Letter De Madder I Getter Thx ------------------------------------------------------ 16639 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 3:38pm Subject: Buddha's Parinibbana: "Like a flame's unbinding was the liberation of awareness" Hi, all - A liberated awareness is still awareness. It is well described as vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato paham (translated as "discernment, non-manifestive, infinite, accessible from all round"), and this in answer to the question of where the four great elements stop without remainder. [The preceding is taken from the Kevaddha Sutta of the Digha Nikaya as translated by Peter Harvey. Maurice Walshe translates it as "Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all luminous"] The following is the ending of the Parinibbana Sutta (taken from ATI), translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: ************************** When the Blessed One was totally Unbound, simultaneously with the total Unbinding, Ven. Anuruddha uttered this verse:
wrote: > passing on any replies. Sarah> > ****************************************************** > > Hi everyone, > > My name is Jan Chearavanont and I am 11 years old.I > live in Hong Kong but my dad is Thai and my mom is > Korean. My first languge is > English and Thai and my second languge is Chinese but > im not so good at speaking or writing in > chinese. Unfotunatly I dont speak Korean so I might > learn that is the future. > > Last year I was learning about different types of > religons such as Buddhism and so Mrs Abbott,my english > tutor said that mabye I can write a small message to > everyone who is intrested in the descussion group. > > Recently one of my teachers past away from the Bali > Bomb , his name was Mr Wash-till...i was quite upset > about it. > > I always belived in recarnation and so i always think > that Mr. Wash-till would recarnate and i might even > get to see him in his future life. > > I hope to hear from you. > Jan > > De Liver > > De Letter > > De Sooner > > De Better > > De Later > > De Letter > > De Madder > > I Getter > > Thx 16642 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism message Correction: He will be reborn. There is no "reincarnation" as such for there is no soul to reincarnate. Reincarnation is a Hindu concept/notion. Rebirth is quite different from the Dhamma perspective. Here is what will make clarification: patisandhi: lit. 'reunion, relinking', i.e. rebirth, is one of the 14 functions of consciousness (viññána-kicca, q.v.). It is a karma-resultant type of consciousness and arises at the moment of conception i.e. with the forming of new life in the mother's womb. Immediately afterwards it sinks into the subconscious stream of existence (bhavangasota, q.v.), and conditioned thereby ever and ever again corresponding states of subconsciousness arise. Thus it is really rebirth-consciousness that determines the latent character of a person. "Neither has this (rebirth-) consciousness transmigrated from the previous existence to this present existence, nor did it arise without such conditions, as karma, karma-formations, propensity, object, etc. That this consciousness has not come from the previous existence to this present existence, yet that it has come into existence by means of conditions included in the previous existence, such as karma (q.v.), etc., this fact may be illustrated by various things, such as the echo, the light of a lamp, the impression of a seal, or the image produced by a mirror. For just as the resounding of the echo is conditioned by a sound, etc., and nowhere a transmigration of sound has taken place, just so it is with this consciousness. Further it is said: 'In this continuous process, no sameness and no otherness can be found.' For if there were full identity (between the different stages), then also milk never could turn into curd. And if there were a complete otherness, then curd could never come from milk.... If in a continuity of existence any karma-result takes place, then this karma-result neither belongs to any other being, nor does it come from any other (kamma), because absolute sameness and otherness are excluded here" (Vis, XVII 164ff). In Mil. it is said: "Now, Venerable Nágasena, the one who is reborn, is he the same as the one who has died, or is he another?" "Neither the same, nor another" (na ca so na ca añño). "Give me an example." "What do you think, o King: are you now, as a grown-up person, the same that you had been as a little, young and tender babe? " "No, Venerable Sir. Another person was the little, young and tender babe, but quite a different person am I now as a grown-up man . " . . . "... Is perhaps in the first watch of the night one lamp burning, another one in the middle watch, and again another one in the last watch?" "No, Venerable Sir. The light during the whole night depends on one and the same lamp.'' "Just so, o King, is the chain of phenomena linked together. One phenomenon arises, another vanishes, yet all are linked together, one after the other, without interruption. In this way one reaches the final state of consciousnes neither as the same person. nor as another person.'' According to the nature of their rebirth consciousness, beings divide into the following 3 groups: 1. ahetu-patisandhika: a 'being reborn without rootconditions', is a being whose consciousness at the moment of rebirth was not accompanied by any of the 3 noble rootconditions, viz. greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (s. múla), i.e. selflessness, kindness, intelligence. Such beings are found in the 4 lower worlds (apáya, q.v.), in which case the function of rebirth is exercised by the class of consciousness listed in Tab. I as No. 56. But if such beings are born in the sensuous sphere as humans, they will be crippled, blind, deaf, mentally deficient, etc. (Rebirth-consciousness = Tab. I, No. 41) 2. dvihetu (or duhetu)-patisandhika: a 'being reborn with only 2 (noble) root-conditions', i.e. greedlessness and hatelessness. (Rebirth-consciousness = Tab. I, Nos. 44, 45, 48 or 49.) 3. tihetu-patisandhika: a 'being reborn with 3 (noble) rootconditions'. Such a being can be found only among men. (Rebirth-consciousness = Tab. 1, Nos. 42, 43, 46, or 47) and higher heavenly beings. On these 3 types of rebirth, See Atthasálini Tr. 11, 354 - 379. (App.: patisandhika). In the suttas, the terms for rebirth are chiefly punabbhava (q.v.), 'renewed existence', and abhinibbatti 'arising'; or both combined as punabbhavábhinibbatti. - (App.: patisandhi). Literature Vis.M. XVII, 133f, 164f, 189f, 289f; Vis.M. XIX, 22f. - Karma and Rebirth, by Nyanatiloka Thera (WHEEL 9). - The Case for Rebirth, by Francis Story (WHEEL 12/13). - Survival and Karma in Buddhist Perspective, by K. N. Jayatilleke (WHEEL 141/143). - Rebirth Explained, by V. F. Gunaratna (WHEEL 167/169). ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism message > Hi Jan, > > I'm sure Mr. Wash-til will reincarnate but you won't know who he is. So > it's a good idea to be kind to everyone. > > I'm 56 years old and live in the middle of the US, Boulder Colorado. It > is very cold and wintery here right now. About 16 inches of snow on the > ground and more expected tomorrow. Brrrr > > Larry > > > 16643 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 10:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Should the Garden be left to Grow? Tom Hi, and welcome to the list from me. Good to see you here. Sorry to be so slow in coming in on your thread (if you haven't noticed already, I usually run a long way behind with my posting). I think what prompted your original post was the general issue of consideration for other beings/creatures, rather than taking life in particular. This is a theme that has interested me a lot over the years. In a sense, it seems as though much of our life is lived 'selfishly', i.e. for our own benefit and without much regard to the concerns of others. This becomes particularly apparent in certain instances such as the one you gave about sweeping away spider webs, with possible loss of life. I would just like to add 1 or 2 random thoughts to the many excellent comments already posted. As far as selfish motives are concerned, these are an inherent aspect of our lives. Like it or not, the intrinsic nature of us all is 'unwholesome' and tending to become more so, and this is something we have to come to terms with before there can be any progress in the other direction. Consequently, deciding to refrain from doing any act that was motivated by self-interest, would simply mean we'd end up doing nothing (and even then it's unlikely there'd be any less 'selfishness' than if we had just gone on with our lives normally). However, at moments when there is true concern for the welfare of others ('wholesome' moments), this will be reflected in the act being done at that time (including sweeping away spider webs). The difference in terms of outward appearance/immediate results may not be readily apparent, but the 'quality' of the act will be different. There is another aspect to this that's also worth bearing in mind. Even if we studiously avoided doing any act that seemed likely to bring suffering to another, this would not necessarily mean that the quality of the (non-)act was any more wholesome/less unwholesome than if we had done the act (indeed, it could be less wholesome). Actually, even if a person was completely freed of selfish tendencies, his/her acts would still impact adversely on others. It is an inherent feature of life in this existence that this should be so. Merely by walking down the street, we probably bring about the demise of countless (mostly unseen) creatures. Think of all the creatures whose lives have been lost in the interests of getting the salad into our sandwich/vegetables into our curry! What I am trying to say is that our conduct will be 'purer', less harmful to others, if there is more of the wholesome qualities such as consideration for the welfare of others (i.e., it is the wholesome mental states that, if developed, will lead to improvement in the quality of our conduct, not the other way around). Finally, a couple of brief observations on the topics of taking life and its consequences, that have been discussed in this thread. First, the precept against taking life applies as much to the life of an ant as it does to the life of a person. At the same time, however, it is made clear it that this is a rule of training rather than an 'absolute rule', and this reflects the fact that it is not something we should expect of be perfect at. Second, we need to understand that there is a qualitative difference between doing something with the intention of causing the death of a sentient being, and doing something when that intention is absent but there is the knowledge that what we are doing is going to result in the death of sentient beings. Life is a lot easier if we don't confuse 1 with the other (this of course is not to say that while one is 'bad' the other is 'OK'). So while there are certain kinds of conduct (the precepts) that we are strongly urged to avoid as far as possible in all circumstances, we need to be clear about exactly what these kinds of conduct are and how they are distinguished from look-alike acts that are much less severe in their moral impact. Jon --- proctermail wrote: > Hi Christine and group, > > Thanks for your comments - you have elaborated the question well > and > given me more to think about. Your problem of ants is similar to > another I have - slugs. It is very wet here and even my carpet gets > > wet when it rains so slugs are encouraged to come inside. I agree > that prevention in is probably an acceptable way forward - I > removed > as many slugs as I could find and then placed salt in the likely > places where they got in - hopefully I have discouraged them not > killed them and have had less of a problem since. There is prob > some > negative kamma invilved but it could be worse - perhaps leave a > bowl > of water outside for the ants (though this may encourage!). > > I guess I realise that the garden has to be cut back but i once > killed a frog inadvertantly whilst strimming. > > It is also interesting what you say about sentient beings as we > think > of plants as living and dying and returning to the earth to be > reborn > in another format but I guess thats a whole different discussion > topic! > > tp 16644 From: James Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 11:27pm Subject: Re: Buddhism message Hi Star Kid! (AKA Jan): Thanks for writing. I really liked your letter. I'm impressed that you know so many languages for being so young! You must be really smart and study really hard. You are one STAR KID alright! :-) I am also glad that you are learning about Buddhism. It is a very happy way to live and view life :-). You sound like a very nice girl and I wish you well in your religion and language studies. I am sorry to hear about the death of your teacher. I am also sorry to hear that it upset you. Yes, Mr. Wash-till will be reborn and you may just meet him again one day. How will you know it is him when you do? Well, you won't know for sure but there are some things you can look for: As he was kind, so he will be reborn as kind. As he was generous, so he will be reborn as generous. As he was wise, so he will be reborn as wise. As he taught others, so he will be reborn to teach others. As he was loved, so he will be reborn to be loved. Jan, whatever good things he was before he died, he will be those things again when he is reborn. Just like they say, "You are what you eat", it is also true that "You are what you do and think." So, Mr. Wash-till, since he was someone who people loved and cared about (like you did), will be reborn as someone who people love and care about again. He will be just fine and very happy. Please don't be too sad for him. Think good thoughts and his new, happy life. I liked your poem also. Let me give you this little poem written by Shel Silverstein to make you smile, since you may be still sad about your teacher; and to remind you again about rebirth/reincarnation. It is also about a boy who became exactly what he thought about and did all the time. I hope you aren't like this boy…but I am sure you aren't :-). Love, James Jimmy Jet and His TV Set I'll tell you the story of Jimmy Jet - And you know what I tell you is true. He loved to watch his TV set Almost as much as you. He watched all day, he watched all night Till he grew pale and lean, From "The Early Show" to "The Late Late Show" And all the shows between. He watched till his eyes were frozen wide, And his bottom grew into his chair. And his chin turned into a tuning dial, And antennae grew out of his hair. And his brains turned into TV tubes, And his face to a TV screen. And two knobs saying "vert" and "horiz." Grew where his ears had been. And he grew a plug that looked like a tail So we plugged in little Jim. And now instead of him watching TV, We all sit around and watch him. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Star Kid wrote: > passing on any replies. Sarah> > ****************************************************** > > Hi everyone, > > My name is Jan Chearavanont and I am 11 years old.I > live in Hong Kong but my dad is Thai and my mom is > Korean. My first languge is > English and Thai and my second languge is Chinese but > im not so good at speaking or writing in > chinese. Unfotunatly I dont speak Korean so I might > learn that is the future. > > Last year I was learning about different types of > religons such as Buddhism and so Mrs Abbott,my english > tutor said that mabye I can write a small message to > everyone who is intrested in the descussion group. > > Recently one of my teachers past away from the Bali > Bomb , his name was Mr Wash-till...i was quite upset > about it. > > I always belived in recarnation and so i always think > that Mr. Wash-till would recarnate and i might even > get to see him in his future life. > > I hope to hear from you. > Jan > > De Liver > > De Letter > > De Sooner > > De Better > > De Later > > De Letter > > De Madder > > I Getter > > Thx > ------------------------------------------------------ > 16645 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 0:44am Subject: request to members Dear Group, I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat hair ... Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved over time - as all good buddhists should. :) http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst metta, Christine 16646 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 0:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] request to members Dear Christina, I am the one in monks robes.Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Enviado el: Domingo, Noviembre 03, 2002 07:44 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] request to members Dear Group, I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat hair ... Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved over time - as all good buddhists should. :) http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst metta, Christine 16647 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] request to members Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Yanatharo, Sir, I think it would be a lovely idea if all the Venerables on the list put their photos in the Album. (Ven. Kumara is in the Files section of Dhamma-List.) I'm not sure how many Bhikkhus there are on dsg, as Members listing is not public - but Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo and Ven. Dr. Bhikkhu Yanatharo spring to mind. :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" wrote: > Dear Christina, I am the one in monks robes.Ven. Yanatharo > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Enviado el: Domingo, Noviembre 03, 2002 07:44 p.m. > Para: dhammastudygroup@y... > Asunto: [dsg] request to members > > > Dear Group, > > I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album > might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on > view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with > the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the > long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the > comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat > hair ... > > Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved > over time - as all good buddhists should. :) > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > metta, > Christine 16648 From: antony272b2 Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 2:48am Subject: Re: Buddha's gradual instruction Hi Christine, Robert K and all, My attempt to focus on mundane happiness instead of sankhara dukkha was incomplete. Thanks for sharing this journey with me. with respect / Antony. 16649 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 2:56am Subject: Star Kids Hi Larry, Chris, James & All, Jon & I both really liked your replies to Jan - kind, very helpful and funny (esp. James' poem;-)) I won't see her til next Sat, but will f/w them and any further ones in the meantime. I'll also print them out to use in class. She didn't put it in her message, but she told me she'd been at camp with her teacher during most the week, returned with him on Friday afternoon. The next day he flew to Bali and that evening the bomb went off. Actually, she wanted to join DSG using her own email account, but after chatting about it, we decided to open the starkidsclub@y... for any kids to send messages to first, so as to avoid their own email addresses being shown (as a precaution and in case of parental concerns). This way we can also just check the messages are suitable before f/w to the list, but don't intend to edit in anyway and they'll be treated just like regular members in any other respects. So, if any of you have kids, grandkids, students, friends' kids or street kids who you can encourage to send Buddhist or 'life' questions to our helpful panel (Larry, Chris & James so far), then it's a condition for us all to learn more about teaching Buddhism to kids too. I'm sure the kids'll be teaching us plenty too - like Jan's sign-off;-) Chris, I'll also try to help Jan post a photo (actually that's a joke, b.c she and all my other students are far more internet savvy than I am - maybe she can help me to do this). Many thanks Sarah p.s We live in Star Street, so all kids who come here are Star Kids;-) ======================================================================= 16650 From: ajahn_paul Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] request to members Hi Chris, i'd uploaded mine! ^^ Paul 16651 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] request to members Thanks Paul - Lovely to see your friendly face! - I find that it does make a difference when writing to people if you can 'visualise' them. Somehow you feel you know them better. :) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "ajahn_paul" wrote: > Hi Chris, > > i'd uploaded mine! ^^ > > Paul 16652 From: Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhism message Dear Jan - There isn't much anyone can add to the loving messages you have received from folks on this list. Please do know we do feel love for you even though we don't know you first hand. We can easily understand that what has happened has surprised you and made you unhappy. It isn't easy to lose somebody we care about. I don't believe that when we die we are gone for good. We just have new experiences, and we probably even meet people we knew and loved before. I am sure that the good things we do now lead to good things for the furure, and that after all is said and done, there really isn't anything we need to be afraid of. We are safe. Really. With much love, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16653 From: rahula_80 Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 5:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi Howard, You wrote: > This post confuses me. I don't recall giving any reference. < I apologise. The confusion is really my error. > (I don't know why you mention my name.) Also, when I try to access your url, I get a msg saying that there is no msg 82804.< First, there is no message of 82804. Therefore, it is my error. Secondly, I was not mentioning your name. I was quoting from the url Sarah gave. The url is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8280 I am not sure whether Howard in the message is you or not as I have not joing at that time. I am sorry for all these. With apology, Rahula 16654 From: Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, Rahula - Ahhh. I see. No apology needed. And, yes, I was the "Howard" Anders quoted. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/3/02 8:39:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, rahula_80@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > You wrote: > > >This post confuses me. I don't recall giving any reference. < > > I apologise. The confusion is really my error. > > >(I don't know why you mention my name.) Also, when I try to access > your url, I get a msg saying that there is no msg 82804.< > > First, there is no message of 82804. Therefore, it is my error. > Secondly, I was not mentioning your name. I was quoting from the url > Sarah gave. The url is: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8280 > > I am not sure whether Howard in the message is you or not as I have > not joing at that time. I am sorry for all these. > > With apology, > Rahula > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16655 From: rahula_80 Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 5:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi, I would like to check whether Samyutta Nikaya I 4. contains the phrase "sabbe dhammaa aniccaa". I found this it is Accentisutta.m and it does not contain the phrase. I am using http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html So, I was thinking if someone has other other Tipitaka text to verify it. The same thing goes for Samyutta Nikaya III 132 quoted by PTS Dictionary as containing the phrase. But I check with that url but found that it is Channa Sutta. And the phrase according to that website is " Sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa; sabbe dhammaa anattaa"ti" Rahula 16656 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] third insight knowledge Nina --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 26-10-2002 14:29 schreef Jonothan Abbott op > Jon: > I, too, find this interesting. The key seems to be that it is associated > with panna that is weak. My guess is that what is being referred to here > is the fact that, even when there is the direct experience of a dhamma, if > the general level of awareness is weak (as we know it in fact is), there > is still the idea of a person at such moments. <> As we all know, there appear to be several different phenomena (dhammas) continuously present at any one time (and we are told that the reason for this is the rapidity with which these phenomena arise and fall away). But awareness if it arises will have only one of those dhammas as its object. So even though there will be no idea of person in relation to that particular dhamma, it seems to me that there could still be the idea of person in connection with any of the other dhammas arising at the same time, since these would in fact be different mind-moments. > Jon: > In terms of paramattha dhammas, this I suppose means that there are > moments of awareness (kusala) and moments of 'ordinary' (akusala) > perception of the world arising alternately, with the latter > predominating. > > This may be why it is said that when awareness is weak it can be difficult > to see it for what it is, since it may manifest as moments of just a > glimmer of direct experience of a dhamma, hardly distinguishable from > moments when awareness is totally absent. <> I agree that at moments with sati there would be no thought of a person, but I'm not so sure that the difference between moment with sati and moment without must always be so clear. Even though there have been moments of strong insight, this doesn't mean all subsequent moments of insight/awarenes will be so strong and clear. There are still accumulations of all the usual defilements, and so there may still be doubt about the true nature of any moment, including a moment of (weak) awareness or understanding. Just my thoughts. Jon 16657 From: ajahn_paul Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] request to members Totally agree with u! ^_~ --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks Paul - Lovely to see your friendly face! - I find that it does > make a difference when writing to people if you can 'visualise' them. > Somehow you feel you know them better. :) > metta, > Chris > 16658 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 6:33am Subject: Re: request to members: To Sarah And Christine Dear Sarah and Christine I do not forget Sarah's e-mail regarding an electronic image of mine for DSG photo files. Now, Christine's reminder. I agree with you, Christine, that it is good to be able to visualize the people we communicate with. The reason I still haven't sent my electronic image to DSG photo files is a technical one. I do not have a digital camera. However, for those who would like to visualize how I would look, the following are some hints. I have fair skin color for an Asian, thick lips, medium height, long hair. If you have watched Samurai movies, Toshiro Mifune could remind you of my face. Visualize very hairy Mifune, though! But, smiley and sweet mountain man. :) As soon as technical problems are solved, I would send an electronic image of mine to DSG photo files. For now, visualization of (hairy) Toshiro Mifune in his Samurai movies would do the trick. Happy visualization! With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat hair ... Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved over time - as all good buddhists should. :) http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst metta, Christine 16659 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 7:13am Subject: Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 13 Perfections, Ch 6, Energy, no. 13 The Buddha, after he had finished the discourse, spoke the following words: ³Monk, long ago you followed the instruction, but why do you not now strive?² The Buddha declared the Truths and at the conclusion that monk was established in the fruition of streamwinning. The Buddha identified the persons in that former life: ³That monk was prince Samvara who became the King at that time, Såriputta was prince Uposatha, the Elders and secondary Elders were the other princes, the buddhist followers were their followers, and I myself was the courtier who advised the King.² The Buddha¹s followers in the past were the buddhist assembly at the time of the Buddha Gotama. We can see that it is not difficult for a result to materialize, but that the development of the right conditions leading to such a result is difficult. If at this moment there is not yet the cause that can bring its appropriate result, the result cannot arise, no matter how much one tries to hasten its arising. We should continue to apply energy with the development of understanding and we should be truthful with regard to it: we should find out whether we know the characteristics of realities that are appearing right now or not yet. This kind of understanding is not intellectual understanding which stems from listening, but it is of the level of satipatthåna. Satipatthåna is developed when sampajañña (paññå) arises together with sati and knows the characteristics of realities appearing at this moment as they are. Paññå develops gradually, time and again, so that one day the four noble Truths can be penetrated. When the time for enlightenment has come, this result is in accordance with the cause, and it will arise without difficulty. However, we should continue to be patient and to have energy and endeavour to develop understanding. We read in ³Ardent Energy² (Gradual Sayings, Ch V, § 49) that the Buddha said: Monks, on three occasions ardent energy is to be exerted. What three? To prevent the arising of evil, unprofitable states not yet arisen; to cause the arising of good, profitable states not yet arisen; to endure the bodily feelings that have arisen, feelings which are painful, sharp, bitter, acute, distressing and unwelcome, which drain the life away. These are the three occasions... Now, when a monk exerts himself on these three occasions, he is called ³strenuous, wise and mindful so that he makes an end of dukkha². Even a very short text can remind us of the endeavour we should make on three occasions, so that patience and endurance can further develop. ******* End of chapter. The next one, on patience, will be presented after my stay in Thailand, after medio Dec. Yes Christine and Azita, it is a work in progress. After a long time, when finished, it will be put on Web. Thanks for your kind words. Nina. 16660 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 8:29am Subject: Re: Reincarnation and connections Dear Jan, Am so glad that you have written in to the Dhamma Study Group. Somehow, I feel connected to you, because Ms. Abbott is also a dear friend of mine and because one of your relatives, Marissa Chearavanont, was my student at ISB (International School Bangkok) many years ago. Her mother is American, her father is, of course, Thai, and she is still working in Paris, I think. Should you have her contact information, please tell her Mrs. Yugala says hello. And speaking of connections, as you rightly surmised, we are all interconnected through a myriad of lifetimes; that it is not inconceivable that everyone we have ever met in any one lifetime, we probably have met before, in countless other lifetimes and in numerous situations and relationships. You have probably known Mr. Wash-till (sp?) in many previous lives, for this is how all of us have built up our attachments to the various people we know and love, and who have touched our lives, lifetime after lifetime. Thus, it is perfectly natural that when someone we have been attached to is taken from us in death, it brings about a deep sense of sadness and loss. But the beauty of Buddhism is that it teaches us to really understand and see such losses clearly. When we understand what is really going on, we can see such events in their true nature, and thus we can learn to detach from such losses and the pain that they bring. But this kind of detachment does not mean ignoring the loss or trying to convince ourselves that it doesn't affect us, or denying it. It means accepting the loss with a sense of inner peace, and deeply understanding what is meant when the Buddha taught that all reality has 3 characteristics. All reality is (1) impermanent, it does not last; (2) that all reality is dukkha, a Pali word meaning unsatisfactory ("things" are not the way "we" want them to be, thereby making us unhappy about them); and the hardest to understand, (3) that all reality is not a self, a being, an "I". However, this last teaching, the most important in Buddhism, is also the hardest to understand, and therefore I will leave it for a later time. But, try and think about the connections between these 3 characteristics of reality and the myriad of things and persons to which you are attached in this lifetime. How does one then develop the depth of understanding in order to detach from persons and things we are attached to? How does Buddhism teach us to go about developing that understanding? These are the central questions of Buddhism that usually take many lifetimes to answer and to understand. You are indeed fortunate to have the opportunity to know Ms. Abbott, for she has a wonderful understanding of these questions and can begin to explain them to you. And yes, you have known Ms. Abbott in many previous lifetimes and it is no accident that you have the good fortune to know her again in this lifetime. Should you wish to write to me, to ask questions, please feel free to do so at the contact information below, or through the Dhamma Study Group. with metta, Mom B. Yugala _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 8:04 PM Subject: [dsg] Digest Number 1124 > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:36:18 +0800 (CST) > From: Star Kid > Subject: Buddhism message > > passing on any replies. Sarah> > ****************************************************** > > Hi everyone, > > My name is Jan Chearavanont and I am 11 years old.I > live in Hong Kong but my dad is Thai and my mom is > Korean. My first languge is > English and Thai and my second languge is Chinese but > im not so good at speaking or writing in > chinese. Unfotunatly I dont speak Korean so I might > learn that is the future. > > Last year I was learning about different types of > religons such as Buddhism and so Mrs Abbott,my english > tutor said that mabye I can write a small message to > everyone who is intrested in the descussion group. > > Recently one of my teachers past away from the Bali > Bomb , his name was Mr Wash-till...i was quite upset > about it. > > I always belived in recarnation and so i always think > that Mr. Wash-till would recarnate and i might even > get to see him in his future life. > > I hope to hear from you. > Jan > > De Liver > > De Letter > > De Sooner > > De Better > > De Later > > De Letter > > De Madder > > I Getter > > Thx > 16661 From: James Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 9:00am Subject: Re: request to members Christine, Thanks for the citation information. Now I know it isn't just me! I have also uploaded a recent picture of myself (July, 2002). It was taken at my temple during a personal meditation retreat (thus I am in all white). Little girl, whose mother cooked for the monks, liked to play with me while the monks ate. This is after the monk's one meal and we are receiving the blessings. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album > might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on > view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with > the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the > long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the > comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat > hair ... > > Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved > over time - as all good buddhists should. :) > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > metta, > Christine 16662 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 11:34am Subject: Re: request to members: Suan Hi Suan, Now Suan, we are slowly backing you into a corner! :) You don't have to have a digital camera ... You don't even have to have the negative of a favourite photo. All you need is either the print or a negative. Go to a place that you usually put your film in for processing. Ask them to prepare the chosen photo for emailing. They will put it on a disk. Some people get all their photos developed onto a disk - some get them put onto a CD - but I take too many of 'backs of heads' 'inside of handbag' type photos to justify the small extra cost. Insert disk in computer at home, then either send an ordinary email to one of us at home with selected photo/s as the attachment - or fiddle about yourself and upload it to the Photos section. The person uploading the photo is the only one who can 'delete' it when they wish. (which is easy to do at any time.) This offer applies to anyone less computer literate than I(!?) Anyone knowing of a simpler way, your instruction/correction would be welcome. And, by the way, it is perfectly O.K. for anyone NOT to want their photo in the album - no need for people to feel any pressure - I simply remind members every so often that we'd all love to see them, and then drop the matter (for a while:))... .... not another word ... Well, maybe, just a few - You will notice I haven't mentioned people like Antony, Rahula, WL, KKT, Stephen, Tom, Sarah F, Peter and anyone else who has momentarily slipped my mind. :) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Sarah and Christine > > I do not forget Sarah's e-mail regarding an electronic image of mine > for DSG photo files. > > Now, Christine's reminder. > > I agree with you, Christine, that it is good to be able to visualize > the people we communicate with. > > The reason I still haven't sent my electronic image to DSG photo > files is a technical one. I do not have a digital camera. > > However, for those who would like to visualize how I would look, the > following are some hints. > > I have fair skin color for an Asian, thick lips, medium height, long > hair. > > If you have watched Samurai movies, Toshiro Mifune could remind you > of my face. Visualize very hairy Mifune, though! But, smiley and > sweet mountain man. :) > > As soon as technical problems are solved, I would send an electronic > image of mine to DSG photo files. > > For now, visualization of (hairy) Toshiro Mifune in his Samurai > movies would do the trick. > > Happy visualization! > > With kind regards, > > Suan > > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Group, > > I wonder if some of our members who are not yet in our photo album > might consider adding their faces to the collection? We are all on > view there - All are welcome and wanted "whatsoever pulsates with > the breath of life, the frail or strong, without exception - the > long, the large, the medium-sized, the short the thin or 'the > comparatively well fed'." And even an occasional one with flat > hair ... > > Please consider ... Updates are welcome if you feel you've improved > over time - as all good buddhists should. :) > > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > metta, > Christine 16663 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 11:37am Subject: Re: request to members Great photo James - cute little girl and angelic looking James! The camera doesn't lie! :):) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Christine, > Thanks for the citation information. Now I know it isn't just me! > > I have also uploaded a recent picture of myself (July, 2002). It > was taken at my temple during a personal meditation retreat (thus I > am in all white). Little girl, whose mother cooked for the monks, > liked to play with me while the monks ate. This is after the monk's > one meal and we are receiving the blessings. > > Metta, James 16664 From: Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 0:13pm Subject: commentary break Dear Nina and all, I don't want anyone to miss out on the commentary while they are visiting Thailand, so when should we take a break? Larry 16665 From: James Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 0:29pm Subject: Re: request to members Hi Christine, *Blush, Blush*. Thank you. I posted that photo because it is Buddhist themed. Hmmm...I never thought of myself as looking angelic! Thank goodness my horns and forked tail don't show up in photographs! hehehe...just kidding. I think the little girl, Jennifer, looks much more angelic than me. Isn't she a doll?!! (Her mom gave me permission to put the photo on the Internet, btw. Now if her mother isn't scared, I don't see why anyone in this group should be scared of posting a photo. Buddhists are predominately pacifists; and life is too short to live in fear.). This was day 9 of a 10-day, self-guided, meditation retreat...I think I look rode hard and put away wet! :-) I hope the other members post photos also. Your instructions were impecible. Metta, James --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Great photo James - cute little girl and angelic looking James! The > camera doesn't lie! :):) > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > > Christine, > > Thanks for the citation information. Now I know it isn't just me! > > > > I have also uploaded a recent picture of myself (July, 2002). It > > was taken at my temple during a personal meditation retreat (thus I > > am in all white). Little girl, whose mother cooked for the monks, > > liked to play with me while the monks ate. This is after the > monk's > > one meal and we are receiving the blessings. > > > > Metta, James 16666 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 1:20pm Subject: Fear and Courage Hi James, I'm leaving for work in a moment - it's after 7.00 a.m. Monday morning in Brisbane right now. All of us in the Asia-Pacific Region will be slaving away while you lucky ones in North America are having a lazy Sunday!! I'd to talk a bit about the 'Fear' subject you mentioned. I am not a very brave person and brought this up in September from a different perspective - the other side of the coin, which is 'courage'. Would you have time to have a look at my original letter, and the replies listed at the foot of the post, and see if you would care to continue discussing any part of the thread? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15529 metta, Christine 16667 From: Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 4:55pm Subject: Way 20, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness"by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing the commentary on: "What are the four? Here, Bhikkhus a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body..." Katame cattaro = "What are the four?" This is a question indicating the desire to expound the teaching. Idha = "Here." In this Dispensation. Bhikkhave = "Bhikkhus". This is a term for addressing persons who accept the teaching. Bhikkhu[15] is a term to indicate a person who earnestly endeavors to accomplish the practice of the teaching. Others, gods and men, too, certainly strive earnestly to accomplish the practice of the teaching, but because of the excellence of the bhikkhu-state by way of practice, the Master said: "Bhikkhu." For amongst those who accept the teaching of the Buddha, the bhikkhu is the highest owing to fitness for receiving manifold instruction. Further, when that highest kind of person, the bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are reckoned, as in regard to a royal procession and the like, when the king is reckoned, by the reckoning of the king, the retinue is reckoned. Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by the Buddha to point out the bhikkhu-state through practice of