16800 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:39am Subject: To Suan from Bhikkhu Bodhi Dear Suan Luzan Thank you for your comments on AN 4:190. As I mentioned in my letter to Sarah, I have been travelling and don?t have any Pali reference materials with me. I had earlier used the Sinhala script ed. of AN, which reads the problematic word as ?pilapanti?, and the PTS ed., which has ?pi lapanti?. I didn?t look at the Burmese edition (Be) or the commentary, and thus, after reading your letter, I see I was too hasty in my judgment. I have to retract my previous statement and admit that the Be reading now seems to me to make the best sense. The form ?plavanti? indicates Sanskritization, which made me discount the Be reading. But if we see this as derived from a more original Pali palavanti, the case is stronger. I thus have to revise the translation I offered Sarah. First, ?sukhino? can be either masc. gen. sg. or masc. nomin. plural. Since I had understood ?pilapanti? as a transitive verb requiring an active subject, I had taken ?sukhino? in the latter sense, as referring to the devas. But if we accept ?plavanti?, then ?sukhino? becomes genitive singular qualifying ?tassa? and referring to the being who has been reborn in the deva realm. Thus we should read: ?While he is happy there [enjoying himself there], the stanzas of Dhamma float up to him [rise up in consciousness], and though his memory arises slowly, he quickly attains distinction.? I still want to check the Sinhala script commentary, which I can do next week when I am in Sri Lanka. I find it puzzling that with the comy?s explanation, Se of AN would still read ?pilapanti?. My statement that the Burmese practice of normalizing difficult readings (which can be attested in various places in the Sixth Council edition) is ?fraught with danger? was too strong. I should modify this to say that it runs the risk of pushing older, more obscure but more original readings out of circulation. This doesn?t affect the substance of the Dhamma at all, but only matters of literary expression. But still, from the standpoint of fidelity to the text, it is of value to preserve readings that might be more archaic even when they are difficult and obscure. Let me again thank you for your comments. If I see anything in the Sinh comy that shows the passage in a different light, I?ll let you know, but not if it just confirms the Be comy reading. Sincerely yours, Bhikkhu Bodhi 16801 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:48am Subject: Re: luminous, pure . Hi James, I view the Abhidhamma and the suttas as saying the same things two different ways; Suttas are lectures, Abhidhamma is a textbook. Some people (such as myself) learn better when the material is presented in a complete, structured way. Must be my engineering training :-). I agree with you that the Abhidhamma is not for everybody. Because of its structure, I find the Abhidhamma a much clearer way of learning the Dhamma than the Suttas. My gut feeling is that the Abhidhamma is a later addition (not words of the Buddha), so areas in which the Abhidhamma embelishes on the Suttas, I take with a grain of salt. However, I am not aware of any areas that the Abhidhamma contradicts the Suttas (if there are any contradictions, then I will almost certainly side with the Suttas). James, if you or any other DSGrs know of any contradictions, please advise. Kamma, dependent origination, metta and intuitive wisdom are all described in the Abhidhamma; however, from a technical analysis perspective. James, I would quote the sections, but since you are not interested in reading further, it won't make any difference :-). The Abhdhamma treats rupa as one of the five khandas that is analyzed to see that none of the components is self. I see this as quite consistent with the Suttas. James, if you are willing to give the Abhidhamma another chance (millions have found benefit in studying it for more than a thousand years, so there must be something in there), can I suggest that rather than starting with Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma", that you start with Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" (available on-line at http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html ). Nina's book is probably better for a beginner than Bhikkhu Bodhi's book. Stopping the study of the Abhdidhamma because it is not "your cup of tea" is perfectly legitimate. IMHO, stopping the study of the Abhidhamma because "the Abhidhamma is flawed" is not legitimate. Thanks, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > Robert and All, > > Wanting to learn about the Abhidhamma is what first brought me to > this group. As I have read more about it: its classifications, its > categorizations, its designations…I have completely stopped my > studies of it about one-third into it. When I realized that I was > going to have to start taking notes of my reading and create diagrams > of the concepts to remember them, I knew that it was time for me to > stop studying it. The Buddha said that his dhamma, when seen by the > wise, is put immediately into practice. So obviously it isn't > something that needs such intense study and memorization. Actually, > I wish that I could forget what I have garnered from my reading about > the Abhidhamma. thus far. Maybe time will help me to forget? > > This is going to sound radical, but I think it is a dangerous work > that hinders 'seeing things as they are'. Mostly I am going on > intuition and deduction for this evaluation, since I didn't finish my > studies of it and never intend to. I 'felt' that to go any farther > would, in the words of a Zen Master, "Put another head on top of the > one I already have." This may dismiss what I have to say, but it > shouldn't. > > I read this past exchange about the Abhidhamma and I must agree with > the overall objections you list: > 1. A monk says Abhidhamma contradicts the teachings in the sutta > pitaka, specifically it contradicts the first 4 Nikayas. > (It sure does. First, the principles of the Abhidhamma don't seem to > include the very important teachings of kamma, dependent co- > origination, metta, or intuitive wisdom. But its biggest fault, in > my estimation, is the assertion of 'Rupa', or matter, and how > knowledge of such will lead to insight. This goes contrary to what > the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught that it is from the mind that > we create our world and it is through control and taming of the mind > that we will find liberation. Knowing the various 'dhammas' of > matter have little to do with that. Basically, as the Buddha said, > it is all Nama. Anything other than that is purely speculative and > doesn't lead to liberation.) > > 2. Many Theravadans believe that the Abhidhamma is not the Buddha's > word. > (After studying it, I can see that it is very unlikely to be the > Buddha's word. The Buddha taught complicated subject matter using > metaphor and analogy. And often he would use a complicated phrase > with no explanation at all. There are three suttas where Ven. Ananda > had to explain some of the Buddha's key phrases to another monk > (Bodily Witness, Released Through Discernment, and Released[Both > Ways]) because the Buddha hadn't ever elaborated. Now, is it likely, > that they Buddha would elaborate on mind states, varying thoughts, > and varying states of matter like that found in the Abhidhamma? Not > too likely. He followed the philosophy that a 'handful of leaves' of > teachings is all one needs to know the whole forest of leaves. The > Abhidhamma is presenting a whole forest of leaves in order to > understand just a handful. It doesn't quite work that way around.) > > 3. Some modern scholars, including hermeneutics experts, have said > they think the Abhidhamma is a later addition. > (From what I have read, it is a later addition. But this doesn't > really prove much or say much because the entire Tipitaka was written > after the Buddha's death. The only thing important is to consider > how close the writings are to what the Buddha actually taught.) > > 4. The style of the Abhidhamma is much more formalistic than the > sutta pitaka so is likely not to be by the same person who taught the > suttas. > (I mention this above.) > > 5. The commentaries say it was first preached in a deva realm and > that sounds like a fairy story. > (This is a ridiculous assertion. This sounds as absurd as the Mormon > thinking of Jesus coming to North America after his crucifixion. A > deva realm is also a conditioned realm. The Buddha entered > Parinibbana, the unconditioned. How could he re-appear in a deva > realm to preach anything? And how could a teaching from a deva realm > be delivered to the human realm? Do they have an advanced postal > service? :-) This is a fairy tale type story and has to be a lie, if > not wishful thinking.) > > But, Robert, if you want to believe and study the Abhidhamma, I would > not discourage that. After all, we all are different. Maybe you > have the type of mind that won't be negatively influenced by > incongruous presentations of dhamma. But I don't think it is fair to > say that those who oppose it are showing disrespect to the dhamma. > > Metta, James 16802 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Hi, Suan - In a message dated 11/9/02 6:45:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > By the way, Howard's concept of nibbaana seems to be a form of > bodiless jhaana comsciousness very similar to Nevasaññaa > Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa's life. Uddaka who taught Nevasaññaa > Naasaññaayatana Jhaana to the Siddhatta Gotama before the Buddha > discovered nibbana, now lives in the world of Nevasaññaa > Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa, wasting his time trilliums of world years by > mistakenly believing the state of bodiless consciousness to be > nibbaana. Think about it, Howard. :) > > ========================== A couple comments in reply: I really have no firm concept of nibbana other than 1) it being the absence of suffering and the three poisons, and 2) it not being an absolute nothingness. Moreover the notion of nibbana/parinibbana as "vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato paham" is not "Howard's concept of nibbaana," but was expressed by the Buddha, and the fact that to you it "seems to be a form of bodiless jhaana consciousness very similar to Nevasaññaa Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa's life" certainly doesn't imply that this is what the Buddha had in mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16803 From: James Mitchell Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 8:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Rob M, Thank you for replying to my e-mail so intelligently and so thoroughly. You do make a good case that gives me reason to pause. Are you getting some kinda kickback from a deva realm for your unwavering support? :-) It could very well be that the Abhidhamma is a technical way of approaching the dhamma. And for an engineer such as yourself, that may be very helpful and possibly even legitimize the dhamma as an intelligent system for knowing our universe which doesn’t rely on ‘faith’. But, for someone like me, as Winnie-the-Pooh said, “A bear of little brain.” study of the Abhidhamma may lead to the thinking that I ‘know’ what the arahants ‘know’, but I really don’t ‘know’ any such thing. I might just think that I do. That is why I said it is dangerous…at least to me. I don’t mind living with my ignorance of the universe and its workings for the moment. I accept that there are some things I don’t need to know because it doesn’t lead to happiness or nibbana. Okay, I might have spoken out too soon about the concepts of karma, dependent origination, metta and intuitive wisdom not being in the Abhidhamma. In the Buddha’s dhamma, they are spoken of immediately and frequently. I didn’t see them in the Abhidhamma given the same place or precedence. This could have been because that work is very technical and I missed it or didn‘t get there. Maybe because it seems to take a more ’observable phenomenon’ approach to dhamma, and those concepts are not directly observable. So, in that case, if the Buddha didn’t write it, I give my vote that Aristotle did! J/k However, I don’t agree that ’Rupa’, as presented in the Abhidhamma, is comparable to one of the five khandas (aggregates) as the Buddha taught. You wanted to know where the Abhidhamma contradicts the suttas, this is the area where I think it does. If not overtly, at least covertly. Okay, now I have to get a little technical. You should love it! :-) In the Khandha Sutta the Buddha taught that there are actually two categories of aggregates: the aggregates and the clinging-aggregates. The aggregates are: Form, Perception, Mental Fabrications (thoughts), and Consciousness. The Buddha described the two categories as thus: 'Plain' Aggregate: "Whatever (insert aggregate) is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of (insert aggregate). Clinging-Aggregate: Whatever (insert aggregate) -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called (insert aggregate) as a clinging-aggregate. The Abhidhamma doesn’t appear to make this distinction between the two categories of ’nama’ and ’rupa’ that the Buddha does, and this distinction is very important. The Abhidhamma seems to make the assertion that all namas and rupas are clingable (since they all have the characteristic of dukkha, they are all presumably clingable) , and the only aggregate that is un-clingable is nibbana (which the Buddha didn’t list as an aggregate) . Therefore the entire ’cosmology’ of the Abhidhamma is in contradition with the ’cosmology’ presented by the Buddha. Of course, I believe the Abhidhamma was written by someone who was not enlightened, so he/she didn’t see this important difference. Since everything to this writer is ’clinging’, he/she assumes that form, perception, mental fabrications, and consciousness are all naturally clingable. If the author had been enlightened like the Buddha, this assumption wouldn’t have been made. Personally, I don’t know the difference between these two categories because I am not enlightened. But I trust the Buddha that the distinction does exist. So, by omission, this is a contradiction within the Abhidhamma...and calls into question its entire philosophy. These are just my thoughts. I enjoy this discussion and appreciate the fact that neither of us have made it personal. Granted, there have been millions of people over thousands of years who have appreciated the Abhidhamma and believed it. But I don’t live by general statistics. This is just a discussion and just my thinking at this point in time. It may change and I am open-minded to the possibility I may be mistaken. Thank you for this opportunity to work out my thinking. Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16804 From: James Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 8:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Oops...rereading this post, I realized that I left out 'feeling' as one of the five aggregates. I hope this was not a 'Freudian Slip!;-). Metta, James 16805 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 9:41am Subject: Re: To Rahula from Bhikkhu Bodhi --- Dear sarah, I think I speak for the whole group when I say how thrilled I am to see Ven. Bodhi replying to these difficult threads. It is a major boon to all of us on dsg. I hope he can contribute regularly/occasionally (of course only when he has time and inclination). I think there would be 99% of the group who use his translations. His essay on Paticcasamuppada in the introduction to the mahadinana sutta is a masterpiece and was very helpful when I wrote the series of letters earlier in the year. Robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Rahula, > > I couldn't reply earlier to your letter as I was travelling in East Asia. > I was in Hong Kong a few days ago and Sarah Abbott gave me a copy of the > long correspondence you had over her website about the translations > proposed by Shakya Aryanatta, which included his criticism of my > renderings of the Mara Suttas. I will comment on several of those, but let > me start with the one you asked me about. > > I also saw Nina van Gorkom's letter in response to yours, and think she 16806 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, anupassanaa, contemplating Hi Larry, anu has several meanings: towards, after, along. Also, as I said: in conformity with (to practise dhammanudhamma: dhamma in conformity of dhamma). following after. Also: lesser, inferior, anudhamma: lesser morality. It all depends on the context. What do you think of: anugacchati: to go after, to follow: go after the characteristics? Anuvya~jana: details. secondary attributes (of the Buddha), or minor characteristics. This may be what you thought. But here in anupassana it must be something else. I lack knowledge, will ask the Pali list. Nina op 08-11-2002 02:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I thought the 'anu' that means > little or small was the 'anu' in anupassanaa and that it therefor meant > contemplation of details. But apparently this is wrong. 16807 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 11:10 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. > > > Hi Kom, > > Peaceful, fruitful, and straight. This is a good > way to understand > kusala. The reason I ask whether kusala is > paramattha is because every > religion and even every person has a different > idea of what is kusala. > All the wars in history were fought over > different interpretations of > kusala. But everyone agrees on what is red or > what is eye consciousness > or what is liking red. So how are we to discern kusala? > A kusala citta has at least the 19 sobhana cetasikas (and 6 others which only arise in sobhana states) which do not arise with akusala states. If one knows directly the characteristic of such sobhana state, then one knows that it is probably kusala. The more conventional observation may be that if a state has the quality of the opposite of any of the 25 sobhana cetasikas, then it can't be kusala. For example, righteous indignation about the Buddha's teachings, or defense of self by hurting others, can this be kusala? If the mind is agitated, it is non-peaceful. This is an opposite of Kaya-pasadhi and citta-pasadhi: this is most likely akusala. How about discussing dhammas to show off, or to feel better about oneself (as compared to others)? You can notice that the mental states are crooked (for doing one thing to achieve another purpose), an opposite of Kaya-passaddhi and citta-passaddhi, this is again akusala. Because of our ignorance that has been accumulated for aeons, it is impossible to make such distinctions in all cases, especially when it comes to attachment. The 2nd noble truth (cause of suffering: lobha) is truly deep and subtle (and so too, the other 3 noble truths). Even when it appears now, we still don't know what it really is (as cause of suffering). Worse yet, we sometimes take it as something else (take attachment as being mindfulness). Panna needs to be developed, since only panna can make such distinctions. The Buddha teaches about Sacca-dhamma: the dhamma that truly exists. Even without the Buddha, kusala is still kusala and akusala is still akusala. If akusala states are arising in ourselves, and others (or we) say it is good, the states are still akusala. If kusala states are arising in ourselves, and others say it is no good, the states are still kusala. Kusala/akusala states are not about situations or stories: they are about the qualities of the realities that are arising now. Dhamma is anatta because it has the characteristics that nobody can control... kom 16808 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati Thanks Christine, I can't read the zip but I have the book. I think we will be getting into bare attention soon in the commentary. Larry 16809 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, anupassanaa, contemplating Thanks, Nina, I'm beginning to see that the "small" meaning of "anu" would be a poor choice. If you find out anything new from the pali group, let us know. It's all interesting. Larry 16810 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Thanks Kom, I'm going to have to contemplate this for a while. Very good. Larry 16811 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 11:09am Subject: thinking Dear group, One area of experience that hasn't been addressed by the commentary, so far, is thinking. It occurred to me that perhaps "thinking" could be included in the "theorizing" category (see below). It doesn't take an arahant to see that we are all theorizing types, so maybe we should at least notice that thinking is impermanent. If we are even more cleaver we could notice that thinking isn't who we are. Larry ----------------- Way 18: [Tika] Drawing distinctions, it is said: Body and feeling are the cause of zest [assadassa karana]. For the rejection of that zest of body, by the dull-witted [manda] man of the craving type [tanhacarita], the seeing [dassana] of the ugly [asubha] in the body, the coarse object [olarika arammana], which is the basis of craving [tanha vatthu], is convenient. To that type of man the contemplation on corporeality, the First Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity [Visuddhi Magga]. For the abandoning of that zest, by the keen-witted [tikha] man of the craving type, the seeing of suffering in feeling, the subtle object [sukhuma arammana], which is the basis of craving, is convenient, and for him the contemplation on feeling, the Second Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. [T] For the dull-witted man of the theorizing type [ditthi carita] it is convenient to see consciousness [citta] in the fairly simple way it is set forth in this discourse, by way of impermanence [aniccata], and by way of such divisions as mind-with-lust [saragadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of permanence [nicca sañña] in regard to consciousness. Consciousness is a special condition [visesa karana] for the wrong view due to a basic belief in permanence [niccanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. The contemplation on consciousness, the Third Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity of this type of man. [T] For the keen-witted man of the theorizing type it is convenient to see mental objects or things [dhamma], according to the manifold way set forth in this discourse, by way of perception, sense-impression and so forth [nivaranadi vasena], in order to reject the notion of a soul [atta sañña] in regard to mental things. Mental things are special conditions for the wrong view due to a basic belief in a soul [attanti abhinivesa vatthutaya ditthiya]. For this type of man the contemplation on mental objects, the Fourth Arousing of Mindfulness, is the Path to Purity. 16812 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 0:23pm Subject: Re: luminous, pure . James, Like RobM and the members of this List, I too see no contradiciton between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma. ButI understand a little of how you feel. I'm only a few years into Buddhism myself, and experienced fairly similar feelings a year or so ago. Just go slowly, and learn what comes easily, what you feel attracted to. Please don't feel you have to draw diagrams and memorise lists, or that you should master in a few days what the Buddha took aeons to understand. If you don't feel comfortable or drawn to much study, just stick with the Suttas. If you find theory disturbing, just be mindful of what arises at the sense doors for a while. Just relax and let be. Don't close your mind, all will be well. It is not a case of "either or" It can be "both" in whatever proportion is preferred. Dhamma is spiritual food, and like food some of it is very rich and may need to be taken in small portions at first, and like food we each have different preferences. No use getting indigestion. :) [May I also ask you honestly to consider another point? You are a very articulate and intelligent man. I don't know your academic history, but I feel you would have be a high achiever, and be used to having people come to you for explanations. Your knowledge of buddhism says to me that you have been practicing for years as well, and your practice is comfortable and familiar. James, in all of this, could there possibly be a tiny chance that, as this is a new and difficult area for you, a different way of understanding and practice, that there is some aversive reaction to being a relative beginner again with all the anxieties and exasperations that brings? Just ignore this para. if you feel it is incorrect or offensive.] A few of the many Sutta references (hope the links are current): http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/112-chabbisodhana-e.htm Majjhima Nikaya 112 Chabbisodhana Sutta - The Six-Fold Examination http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/115-bahudhatuka-e.htm Majjhima Nikaya 115 Bahudhatuka Sutta - The Many Kinds of Elements http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/140-dhatuvibhanga-e.htm Majjhima Nikaya 140 Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta - The Exposition of the Properties http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/148-chachakka-e.htm Majjhima Nikaya 148 Chachakka Sutta The Discourse of Six Sixes http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/149-mahasalayatanika-e.htm Majjhima Nikaya 149 Mahaasa.laayatanika Sutta - The Longer Discourse on the six spheres http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-056.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.56 Parivatta Sutta - The (Fourfold) Round http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-057.html Samyutta Nikaya XXII.57 - Seven Bases Samyutta Nikaya 'The Connected Discourses of the Buddha' beginning at page 627 Part III 14 Dhatu-samyutta (in The Book of Causation) beginning at page 853 Part III 22 Khandha-vagga The Book of the Aggregates beginning at page 1133 Part IV 35 Salayatana-vagga The Book of the Six Sense Bases ---------------------------- Some Visuddhimagga references: P.547 of Visuddhimagga 'The Path of Purification' XVm, 1 'Description of the Bases and Elements' P.552 of Visuddhimagga 'The Path of Purification' XV,17 ff 'Description of the Bases and Elements' P.649 of Visuddhimagga 'The Path of Purifiction' XVII, 203 [(v) The Sixfold Base] Nyanatiloka in his Buddhist Dictionary defines dhatu, ayatana and khandha as: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm dhátu: 'elements', are the ultimate constituents of a whole. (I) The 4 physical elements (dhátu or mahá-bhúta), popularly called earth, water, fire and wind, are to be understood as the primary qualities of matter. (II) The 18 physical and mental elements that constitute the conditions or foundations of the process of perception. áyatana: . The 12 'bases' or 'sources' on which depend the mental processes, consist of five physical sense-organs and consciousness, being the six personal (ajjhattika) bases; and the six objects, the so-called external (báhira) bases khandha: the 5 'groups (of existence)' or 'groups of clinging' (upádánakkhandha); alternative renderings: aggregates, categories of clinging's objects. These are the 5 aspects in which the Buddha has summed up all the physical and mental phenomena of existence, and which appear to the ignorant man as his ego, or personality. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James, > > I view the Abhidhamma and the suttas as saying the same things two > different ways 16813 From: James Mitchell Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 1:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Christine, Oh my goodness! *blush, blush* I don’t embarrass easily but this post sure did it! I feel like I had one of those dreams where I realize I am in public in just my underwear! Eeeekkk!! :-) The members of this group are so sweet it just amazes me sometimes. With all the posts filled with a Pali vocabulary so thick they seem like a foreign language, one would think that the members are rather cool and aloof. But that doesn’t appear to be the case at all. I have seen instance after instance of members jumping to reassure anyone who has doubt, frustration, or confusion about Buddhism…and without being superior about it. Okay, I will continue to plunge onward into the Abhidhamma, there must be something to it I am missing. I should give it a fair chance because I have witnessed the wisdom and compassion of those who embrace it I am also going to shop for an English-Pali dictionary today so that I can understand what most of you are talking about (I can sense that Kom‘s recent post is brilliant but I have no clue what most of it is saying! And the online Pali dictionaries I have used are rather unsatisfactory in depth and search capabilities). Hmmm…maybe I have been the big dog on the street for many years when it comes to Buddhism, and perhaps it is intimidating to be a young pup again. Additionally, you are correct, I have considerable education: 4 college degrees and I will begin a PhD (Piled Higher and Deeper :-) program probably after Christmas…I can't stop going to school! I am a professional student! I like what you write, “It is not a case of "either or" It can be "both" in whatever proportion is preferred.” This is always a good stance to take and one that I hardily accept. The Middle Way was what brought the Buddha to enlightenment. Okay Christine, your Buddhist intervention has worked. I will study more before I rush to begin a national, “Just Say No to the Abhidhamma!” campaign :-). Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16814 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 2:38pm Subject: Getting into Abhidhamma Hi James, I am really glad to see that you are not going to abandon Abhidhamma. I remember when I started attending weekly Abhidhamma classes five years ago; for the first six months, I left the class shaking my head thinking, "What did he talk about?". I wasn't used to that feeling and took it as a personal challenge to "learn the lingo" (BTW, an in-depth understanding of Pali is not required to appreciate the Abhidhamma, almost all of the Pali-related discussions on DSG are focused on Suttas, not Abhidhamma). Now the weekly class has been split into two and I teach the beginner's class. I am used to seeing people show up and leave with a blank look on their faces. Fortunately, most of them come back the following week. Now I take it as my personal challenge to share the beauty of the Abhidhamma without scaring anybody away. I strongly recommend that you use Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" as your initial basis of study and then you can move onto Bhikkhu Bodhi. I am looking forward to an extended discussion with you. I never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me and I suspect that I will learn a lot from you (and visa-versa) :-). Gotta go, need to prepare for my class which starts in a couple of hours. Metta, Rob M :-) 16815 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 2:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . James, Glad to hear you'll stick with it for a while - We like having you around. :) Theravada Buddhism has a high regard for: 1. Pariyatti - Learning the wording of the Doctrine, 2. Paripatti - Practicing it, and 3. Parivedha - Penetrating it and realising its Goal. I can remember feeling a little unsure when I first came to dsg - and even coming here took a bit of encouragement. :) One of the very first lessons I had to learn was to stop feeling apologetic for not knowing very much, and comparing myself to others in a negative way. Conceit in western terms is usually thought of as bragging about ones actual or imagined abilities. Someone kindly pointed out that Buddhism sees conceit as three-fold (equality, inferiority, and superiority) - mana, omana, and atimana. I was mortified for a day or so. But then decided that everyone here wished me well, and wanted the best for me spiritually - so, like you, I decided to soldier on. Pali dictionaries are an exciting adventure as well as oftentimes being an exercise in frustration. I obtained "Pali-English Dictionary" by T.W. Rhys Davids and William Stede. It was incomprehensible for days before I realised that a Pali dictionary follows a Pali alphabet entirely different in letter order to the English alphabet. This applies for first letters of a word and for each additional letter of that word. As well, I found a single long word can often really be about four words all joined together, there is a real skill in knowing where the (invisible) breaks are, and how to decipher all the different meanings and come up with a complete meaning - a skill I don't have. Nyanatiloka's on-line dictionary is one of the few that follow the english alphabet. Dhammastudygroup has a quick reference on-line 'glossary of Pali terms' that may be helpful for ordinary queries. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ The Yahoo Pali group have useful downloadable dictionaries and fonts (Pali often needs special fonts or comes out as gobbledy gook) in their Links and Files area. I'm not sure if you have to be a member, but if you do, it is well worth being a lurker there to explore and access their resources: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/links (click on the dictionaries folder) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > Christine, <<<<>>>> Additionally, you are correct, I have > considerable education: 4 college degrees and I will > begin a PhD (Piled Higher and Deeper :-) program > probably after Christmas…I can't stop going to school! > I am a professional student! > > I like what you write, "It is not a case of "either > or" It can be "both" in whatever proportion is > preferred." This is always a good stance to take and > one that I hardily accept. The Middle Way was what > brought the Buddha to enlightenment. Okay Christine, > your Buddhist intervention has worked. I will study > more before I rush to begin a national, "Just Say No > to the Abhidhamma!" campaign :-). > > Metta, James 16816 From: James Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:04pm Subject: Re: luminous, pure . Christine, You write, "Glad to hear you'll stick with it for a while - We like having you around. J" This is very sweet of you; btw I never said I was leaving this group. I would have to have my head examined to do such a stupid thing! I wish I had discovered this group long ago. It is very beneficial and worthwhile to all Buddhists. If monks could ever learn from laypeople, this group would be the place for that to happen. This group doesn't focus on just the Abhidhamma, there is study of all of the Tipitaka. Obviously, for Bhikkhu Bodhi of the Buddhist Publication Society to personally respond to the questions of members of this group, that does say a lot for its caliber (BTW, the BPS also very much enjoys my Buddhist writings. The chief publisher under Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ven. Mettahivariti, described them in correspondence with me as `light, refreshing and unique', and reached an agreement with me to publish a book of them…in regards to my journey to become a monk. The book was going to be titled "Buddha True; Practical Buddhism and the Modern Monk" I didn't become a monk so that book proposal fell through…sent them photos of me, had half of the book written, etc...oh well. But I had other publishers interested in my writings alone, regardless of the monk angle, so I may publish a book one day of my Buddhist ideas/journey.) I just came back from Borders Books where I ordered the Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary. It will arrive in two to four weeks they told me. Is this a good dictionary? Is there anything I should know about it to facilitate my using it most effectively? Thanks again and I will try those sources for definitions you give until my new dictionary arrives. Metta, James 16817 From: James Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:06pm Subject: Re: Getting into Abhidhamma Rob M, Wow, you teach a class on the Abhidhamma! I am very impressed. Well, we will see where I go with it. I won't give up just yet. Thanks for the encouraging words and I look forward to much correspondence with you also as I try to tame this wild beast of the Tipitaka! :-) Metta, James 16818 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Hi, James - In a message dated 11/9/02 7:05:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > just came back from Borders Books where I ordered the Pali Text > Society's Pali-English Dictionary. It will arrive in two to four > weeks they told me. Is this a good dictionary? Is there anything I > should know about it to facilitate my using it most effectively? > Thanks again and I will try those sources for definitions you give > until my new dictionary arrives. > > ============================ Until your book arrives, there is the online version (never as convenient) at the url http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html BTW, your evaluation of DSG as a great group is right on. It is an incredible source of Dhammic knowledge, it is Abhidhamma-oriented but not not Abhidhamma-bound, it is wonderfully tolerant of alternative perspectives, and it is metta-ful!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16819 From: Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Hi, all - In a message dated 11/9/02 7:23:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > it is Abhidhamma-oriented but not not > Abhidhamma-bound, ======================== The double negative was just a typo, and not a Freudian slip! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16820 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > How about discussing dhammas to show off, or to > feel better > about oneself (as compared to others)? You can > notice that > the mental states are crooked (for doing one thing to > achieve another purpose), an opposite of > Kaya-passaddhi and > citta-passaddhi, this is again akusala. One mistake (at least) here. Opposite of kaya-ujukata and citta-ujukata. kom 16821 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 4:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Dear James, > -----Original Message----- > From: James Mitchell [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > doesn’t appear to be the case at all. I have seen > instance after instance of members jumping to reassure > anyone who has doubt, frustration, or confusion about > Buddhism…and without being superior about it. Okay, I > will continue to plunge onward into the Abhidhamma, > there must be something to it I am missing. I should > give it a fair chance because I have witnessed the > wisdom and compassion of those who embrace it I am I also think, in agreement with you, that there are many people in DSG with metta and compassion who are willing to help others better understand what the Buddha teaches. People don't agree on everything (as expected), but I do get that feeling that many share one goal: to truly understand the dhamma, and ultimately nibbana. In regard to Pali usage, thanks for the reminder not to be too liberal with the usage. Most of the Pali words I used (although frequently mispelled) recently can be found in Nina's Cetasikas at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/cetfinal.html There are also many other works full of pali, abhidhamma, and teachings of the Buddha at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html kom 16822 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Suan, Howard and everyone, I am reading here and there about Nibbana and consciousness. I was reading the Brahmanimantanika Sutta MN 49 (Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation) How I got there was from note 1 of the Maha-punnama Sutta MN109 I'm stepping off the safe sandbank here into water over my head. Have mercy! :) May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal consciousness? verse 25: "The consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all." Note 1:MN109: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn109.html 1. One form of consciousness apparently does not come under the aggregate of consciousness. This is termed viññanam anidassanam -- consciousness without a surface, or consciousness without feature. MN 49 says specifically that this consciousness does not partake of the "allness of the all," the "all" being conterminous with the five aggregates. The standard definition of the aggregate of consciousness states that this aggregate includes all consciousness, "past, present, or future... near or far." However, because viññanam anidassanam stands outside of space and time it would not be covered by these terms. Similarly, where SN XXII.97 says that no consciousness is eternal, "eternal" is a concept that applies only within the dimension of time, and thus would not apply to this form of consciousness. says that no consciousness is eternal, "eternal" is a concept that applies only within the dimension of time, and thus would not apply to this form of consciousness. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Suan - > > In a message dated 11/9/02 6:45:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > suanluzaw@b... writes: > > > > > By the way, Howard's concept of nibbaana seems to be a form of > > bodiless jhaana comsciousness very similar to Nevasaññaa > > Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa's life. Uddaka who taught Nevasaññaa > > Naasaññaayatana Jhaana to the Siddhatta Gotama before the Buddha > > discovered nibbana, now lives in the world of Nevasaññaa > > Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa, wasting his time trilliums of world years by > > mistakenly believing the state of bodiless consciousness to be > > nibbaana. Think about it, Howard. :) > > > > > ========================== > A couple comments in reply: I really have no firm concept of nibbana > other than 1) it being the absence of suffering and the three poisons, and 2) > it not being an absolute nothingness. Moreover the notion of > nibbana/parinibbana as "vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato paham" is not > "Howard's concept of nibbaana," but was expressed by the Buddha, and the fact > that to you it "seems to be a form of bodiless jhaana consciousness very > similar to Nevasaññaa Naasaññaayatana Brahmaa's life" certainly doesn't imply > that this is what the Buddha had in mind. > > With metta, > Howard 16823 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 5:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: To Rahula from Bhikkhu Bodhi I second Robert's opinion about this being a boon. I very much enjoy reading his translations, sometimes, over the Thai translations that I have. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] > Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:41 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: To Rahula from Bhikkhu Bodhi > > > --- > Dear sarah, > I think I speak for the whole group when I say > how thrilled I am to > see Ven. Bodhi replying to these difficult > threads. It is a major > boon to all of us on dsg. > I hope he can contribute regularly/occasionally > (of course only when > he has time and inclination). I think there would > be 99% of the group > who use his translations. His essay on > Paticcasamuppada in the > introduction to the mahadinana sutta is a > masterpiece and was very > helpful when I wrote the series of letters > earlier in the year. > Robert 16824 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 6:23pm Subject: Meeting with A. Sujin Dear group, I met with Sujin yesrday and consider the discussion excellent. Num, Sukin and myself asked a few questions but almost all of it was with A. Sujin talking. Much about carita (temperments) in the satipathana sutta . She pointed out a refernce in the Netti-pakorn where there are 19 temperaments or even more. Pieces about stages of vipssana. About choosing objects . (Choosing is not the way - but one will realise , naturally, that he has accumulations for one object over another. because this apears to panna more frequently. Eventually all objects must be known). For those with some pali knowledge the tapes may be worth having. robert 16825 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 10:25pm Subject: to Mom Bongkojpriya ... sawadee ka! Dear Mom Bongkojpriya, Sawadee ka ! I was really happy that you replied because i didnt really expect anyone to reply so thankyou so much. Marisa Chearavanont is my mothers name , she is Korean so i dont think its her and my thai name is Tanyatip Chearavanont , my engilsh name is Jan. About Mr. Walsh-till(thats the correct spelling,i made a mistake on my other e-mail.) he went to year 7 camp(that's my grade) the day before he was reported missing. :'( I also agree the beauty of buddhism. Every night I pray to the buddha and I got so used to doing that, If I dont i wont be able to sleep or the next day i would forget somthing or get in trouble by my teachers(THIS IS VERY TRUE!!!) I always wanted to ask an American this, are you a buddhist or a Christian? Well I really hope you will reply soon Love Jan Tanyatip Chearavanont 16826 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:57am Subject: a letter form Charles Bleach Dear Jan, I don't know much about Buddhism.What was your poem? I cant really say anything because I'm only 8 years old. I almost forgot my name is Charles. I come from Hong Kong. I like playing football, swimming and gym. I like animals such as eagle's, rabbits, rats, pigeon's and hawks and I like race cars. I understood everything in the letters about Buddhism. I think we never really die we just get reborn as a human if we are good, if your very good you get reborn as a god, if your nice you get reborn as an animal, if your bad you get reborn as an insect. My parents are very nice people. My father is a barrister, he likes painting with me. My mother is the head of BVLGARI (the V is a U) and they just divorced. My nationality is half English a quarter French and a quarter of Vietnamese. From Charles P.S : Jan helped me type this up. 16827 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 3:06am Subject: with bated breath - escribe Hi all, Escribe has been working with no problems for the last 24 hours, so maybe it’s a little less impermanent than feared;-) Besides the search functions, I also find it useful for a quick glance of the posts http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Sarah ===== 16828 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elements of Thinking/Contemplation in Vipassana Bhavana Howard Sorry to have been the cause of your confusion ;-)). Let me try to explain. I think we agree that there is such a thing as awareness of the presently arising phenomena without choosing or limiting the object, but we disagree as to how that may occur. I'm saying that can only occurs if there is no directed attention or deliberate training, because whenever these are present there must be, however subtly, a limiting or choosing of the object. Also, I was trying to make the point that practice that is not right practice from the beginning can never somehow 'become' right practice further down the track, which is something I found to be implicit in the proposition that 'at less developed levels of understanding there must be a limiting/choosing of the object, while at more developed levels the limiting/choosing drops away' (my précis of your position). You may not agree, but I hope at least I have managed to 'undo' the confusion ;-)) Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 10/27/02 4:04:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > Howard > > > > If I understand you correctly, Howard, you are saying > > that at less developed levels of understanding there > > must be a limiting/choosing of the object, while at > > more developed levels the limiting/choosing drops > > away. > > > > I know this is a common perception among those who > > follow a ‘directed attention’ strategy, but I believe > > it may be a questionable approach. If > > ‘limiting/choosing’ the object is not what the Buddha > > in fact taught, then this practice could never lead to > > right understanding. > > > > I do believe it’s possible from the beginning for > > there to be awareness that arises without any limiting > > or choosing of the object of awareness. > > > > Jon > > > ========================= > Jon, what you say here confuses me. It seems to be the exact > > *opposite* of what you wrote below. And you seem to be interpreting > what I am > saying as the exact opposite of what I mean as well. You said the > following: > > *********************** > Howard > > In your post below you say of 'informal meditation': > < "getting > lost".>> > > “Seeingâ€? here is another word for “attending toâ€?. But if > you think about > it, there cannot be “attending toâ€? something without a clear > idea of what > the “somethingâ€? is. Even when we call it “whatever > arisesâ€?, there has to > be an idea of what that might possibly be, and so there is, in > effect, it > seems to me, a specifying or limiting of the object at that moment > of > directed attention. > > Jon > ********************************* > > In fact, it was exactly my point that it *is* possible to be > aware of > simply whatever arises, without preselection or limi > tation. My point was that it is possible by means of a trained > readiness of > mind and attention to be mindful and clearly comprehending of > whatever should > happen to arise at any moment. However, it is more difficult for > the > untrained mind to do this than the trained mind. That's all. > > With metta, > Howard > 16829 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Your duty is the contemplation" WL As another equally perplexed being, let me say I appreciate your bringing this subject up. I think it's a very important area to consider and discuss. Without a clear idea of what a moment of awareness or understanding is supposed to be like, we are likely either to not recognise it when it arises (being so weak and indistinct) or to take some other 'experience' as being awareness and understanding. Actually, the same point could be made about any of the other mental factors, especially the wholesome ones. Without a detailed theoretical knowledge of what they are and how they function it is too easy to take something that is in fact unwholesome for being wholesome. The function of awareness (sati) is to experience directly one of the basic phenomena (dhammas) that make up the present moment. These include such 'mundane' phenomena as seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, thinking and feeling. When awareness arises it will have one of these phenomena as it object, in other words, of one of these phenomena will be experienced directly in a way that is not normally the case. If insight (panna) arises, it sees the true nature of the same object. So to answer your question, I think we need to know as much about insight as possible (what it is, how it functions, what can be its object), consider what the Buddha said about its development and reflect at length on how what we have learnt applies to the present moment. This is not an easy subject, I find. I'm sure you must have given it some thought yourself, and I would very much like to hear your views on it. Jon PS I enjoyed reading your recent exchange with James. --- Uan Chih Liu wrote: > Hi, > I've been following this thread because I was hoping it may > provide me some answers to a question that has been > bothering me. But thus far, perhaps due to my ignorance, > I have not found the answers yet. > > My question is this: How does one know when insight occurs? > How does one know if it is insight, not knowledge, or mere > intellectural understanding of something, since we are so heavily > influenced by what we've been taught, by school, by religion, and > heck, by Buddhism? There are times while I'm contemplating > about things, all of sudden, bang, something becomes clear to me. > I'm sure everyone experiences that. Does that constitute as an > insight or was it merely intellectural understanding or was it > merely > a concept construed by my mind with so much conviction that I > actually thought it was insight? I've found learning and knowledge > > is my best friend and biggest enemy on my journey for seeking for > truth. If anyone can shed some light on this, would appreciate > it. > > A very perplexed being, > WL > 16830 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:19am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Christine You asked: "May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal consciousness?" verse 25: "The consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all." Where did you get verse 25? I could not find it in MN49 and MN109. Before I explain verse 25, I need to read it in the original Pali. According to Udaana description of nibbana, there is no eternal consciousness. To my knowledge, there is no other type of consciousness outside the consciousness aggrtegate in the five aggregates. You also asked: "what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal consciousness?" That note is merely Sayadaw Thannisaro's personal speculation (attanomati). It has no backing from the traditional Pali texts. The very fact that he felt the need to write that note showed that he himslef must have found it surprising or unbelievable in the first place. Otherwise, he would not have gone out of his way to write that note. Please kindly read, ponder and stick to the Buddha's own unmistakable definition of nibbaana in Udaana. With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 16831 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] subco bhikkhu Hi Larry, He is calm because of the extinguishment of attachment etc. The etc. is for dosa and moha: thus, all defilements. That is true calm. This is not about samatha with the foulness as meditation subject. Restraint of the faculties: no more defilements on account of what is experienced through the six doors. The four Pthas; the stages of enlightenment, he is arahat. Nina op 09-11-2002 01:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for these notes. They are particularly helpful in understanding > the relationship between seeing the foulness of the body and developing > tranquility. > > "N:... He is calm because of the extinguishment of attachment etc. He is > tamed by the restraint of the faculties. He is assured by way of the > four Paths." Weight Age Gender Female Male 16832 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 21, Comm. A tooth. Dear Larry and Kom, op 07-11-2002 08:29 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > > The Kayanupassana Sattipatthana section does mention many > body parts (still concepts) as objects of the conciousness. > When we talk about the rupas in the 18 elements, the > kandhas, the ayatanas, they are all paramatha dhammas, > however. There are two sorts of breaking down the wholes > (that I see): > 1) Breaking a body into its body parts (the 32 body parts) > 2) Breaking what we see as a whole into the only existence > that can be proven to exist. > > For 1, we can truly see what we take as beautiful body isn't > so beautiful: if this is seen with kusala states, it calms > the mind, and can be an object of samatha development. For > 2, we can truly see what we take as a whole, as a self > (either this self or other selves) are nothing but elements, > kandhas, ayatanas, and can be an object of vipassana (and > samatha) development. > >> The phrase "contemplate the body in the body" is >> said in order to >> isolate body from feeling, citta, and dhamma. So >> the contemplation of >> the elements of rupa here must be different from >> contemplating rupa as a >> khandha in dhammanupassana. Any thoughts on this? Nina: teeth, part of the body. A good reminder, also when not developing a high degree of samatha. What is really there? Mostly we do not notice teeth (unless they ache) but now we are reminded that they are just a body part. A characteristic may appear (when the tongue happens to touch a tooth, but there is thinking also). It can be the element of hardness, only a rupa. We do not have to think of khandha. Larry: So >> the contemplation of >> the elements of rupa here must be different from >> contemplating rupa as a >> khandha in dhammanupassana. N: I take contemplation to be direct awareness, no thinking about which of the four contemplations it must be. Nina. 16833 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . > Until your book arrives, there is the online version (never as > convenient) at the url http://ds al.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Howard, Thanks for giving me this link; that was very thoughtful of you. Actually, I have been using this online dictionary and have had so many problems with it I was hesitant to buy their print dictionary. The main problem with that online dictionary is that when you conduct a search for a word, they don't give a list of approximate words when that search is done. And many of the posts here, not just Kom's, have misspelled Pali words/terms in them, or incomplete words. Imagine this scenerio, which I have played out more times than I care to remember: I read a sentence that has three Pali words and each of them are essential for understanding the sentence. I go to the online dictionary, which means I must open another window and jump back and forth, and then I find the meaning of the first word. However, I can't find the meaning of the second word. It tells me it doesn't exist and doesn't offer approximate words to choose from. I look up the meaning of the last word, hoping that by context clues I will be able to figure out the sentence. I do get the meaning of that word. However, the missing word makes all of the difference and I still don't understand the sentence. I have spent at least 15 minutes trying to find out the meaning of one sentence, end up fruitless, and see that the rest of the post is FILLED with even more Pali, which may or may not be spelled correctly. Whew! It is a true test of Buddhist equanimity… :-) I knew that I needed a print dictionary to understand these posts. I will keep reading the posts though, and may respond to any which I can understand. Believe it or not, some posts speak to me in a certain way, even when I don't cognitively understand what is written; I can tell that they have said something important. That is why I am willing to dish out $40.00 on a dictionary of a thousands-of- years-old dead language. (The clerk at the bookstore was confused and asked me where they spoke Pali since he had never heard of it. I told him, 'The Internet' :-) Metta, James 16834 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Hi, James - In a message dated 11/10/02 11:43:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > (The clerk at the bookstore was confused and > asked me where they spoke Pali since he had never heard of it. I > told him, 'The Internet' :-) > ===================== ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16835 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma Dear James I join Christine in what she writes to you, she expressed it very well. Recently I heard A. Sujin say on a tape: Abhidhamma is seeing now, do not think it is just in the book. We should not consider the Abhidhamma as theory at all. It is about the practice: understanding of what appears through the six doors, now. I agree with what Christine says about not forcing any study. Don't feel unconfortable if you do dislike abh, and do not force outselves to take up my book :-) :-) B.T.W. I think you write admirably to kids. Are you a teacher? As to the dictionary: I wrote out on a front page all the letters in Pali alphabeth order, and after those letters the relevant page numbers. I also have a small dictionary: by Buddhadatta, for quick references. Nina. op 09-11-2002 21:23 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v... > > Like RobM and the members of this List, I too see no contradiciton > between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma. ButI understand a little of > how you feel. If you find theory disturbing, just be > mindful of what arises at the sense doors for a while. 16836 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: typo. Howard, you made me laugh. Maybe a Freudian slip unknowingly? :-) op 10-11-2002 01:44 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a... > > In a message dated 11/9/02 7:23:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... > writes: > >> it is Abhidhamma-oriented but not not >> Abhidhamma-bound, > ======================== > The double negative was just a typo, and not a Freudian slip! ;-)) > > 16837 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Christine and Suan Jim explained before that in this case vi~n~naa.na does not mean citta, but: what should be understood. ~naa.na is understanding. This is applicable to nibbana. Since people do not realize this, they become confused and believe that nibbana must be a certain type of consciousness. Nina op 10-11-2002 15:19 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > "May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon > about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal > consciousness?" 16838 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 1:25pm Subject: Re: abhidhamma Nina, Thank you for writing. Can I ask you something? Can I have your autograph? :-) I must admit I have been reading your book, the peer- pressure has been too great to resist! :-) But I see that the pressure is for good reason, it is an excellent book. Your writing doesn't have a lot of the 'filler' analysis most Buddhist works have, so it requires that I think for myself most of the time. Hmmm…yea, I guess I do need your autograph, on my lawsuit against you for my mental pain and suffering! LOL! Just kidding. It will take me some time to turn the theory into natural practice as you say, but perhaps I will get there. Thank you for the encouraging words. Thank you for the compliment about my letters to the kids. Yes I am a teacher. It really isn't a big secret as to how to communicate with kids. Kids are starting life new; what do you do for anyone who is starting something new? Well, the same things the members of this group have done for me in regards to my new Abhidhamma studies: Encourage, reassure, focus on the positive, point out successes, don't dismiss doubt, give specific advice, have a sense of humor, and express love and caring. I guess I am a kid at heart too (and my last name is Mitchell, as in Dennis Mitchell AKA Dennis the Menace..hmmmm... ;-)…. Metta, James Ps. I agree with you, Christine Rocks!! 16839 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: typo. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/10/02 3:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Howard, > you made me laugh. Maybe a Freudian slip unknowingly? :-) > > ====================== Hmm! A slipping, unmanifestive!! ;-)) - Howard "One can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll Vi~n~nanam means whatever I define it to mean - Lewis Carroll (or somebody! ;-) ======================= I do apologize. I just couldn't resist! (Mara made me do it! ;-)) With manic metta, Howard P.S. While I'm at it, here's a genuine quote of Lewis Carroll which shows the importance of Right Understanding: "If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there." ;-)) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16840 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 5:10pm Subject: Way 23, Comm "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Continuing commentary on "lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent... " And here, by the passage: "For the determining of the object by isolating it, and for the sifting out thoroughly of the apparently compact nature of things like continuity," this too should be understood: This person contemplates in this body only the body; he does not contemplate anything else. What does this mean? In this definitely transient, suffering, soulless body, that is unlovely, he does not see permanence, pleasure, a soul, nor beauty, after the manner of those animals which see water in a mirage. Body-contemplation is only the contemplation of the collection of qualities of transiency, suffering, soullessness, and unloveliness. Because there is no contemplating of the body with reference to a self or to anything belonging to a self, owing to the contemplating even of collections of things like the hair of the head, there is the character of contemplating, in the body, the body which is a collection of things like the hair of the head. The meaning should be understood thus too: "contemplating the body in the body" is the seeing of the body as a group of all qualities beginning with impermanence, step by step, as taught in the passage of the Patisambhida which begins with: "In this body he contemplates according to impermanence and not permanence." The bhikkhu sees the body in the body, (1) as something impermanent; (2) as something subject to suffering; (3) as something that is soulless; (4) by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; (5) by freeing himself of passion for it; (6) with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; (7) and not by way of laying hold of it, but by way of giving it up. Viharati = "Lives." Atapi = "Ardent". What burns the defilement of the three planes of becoming is ardour. Ardour is a name for energy. [Tika] Although the term burning [atapana] is applied to the abandoning of defilements here, it is also applicable to right view, thought, speech, action, livelihood, mindfulness and concentration. As "ardour" [atapa], like "glow" [atappa], is restricted by use to just energy generally, it is said: "ardour is a name for energy." Or because of the occurrence of energy [viriya] by way of instigating the associated things, in the abandoning of opposing qualities, that itself (i.e., energy) is ardour (atapa]. In this place only energy [viriya] is referred to by "atapa". By taking the word ardent [atapi] the Master points out the one possessed of right energy or exertion [sammappadhana]. 16841 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 23, Comm Way 23: Body-contemplation is only the contemplation of the collection of qualities of transiency, suffering, soullessness, and unloveliness. Hi all, Looks like contemplation of the body in the body isolates the body as object from the objects 'feeling', 'consciousness', and 'dhamma' but includes the characteristics of unloveliness, suffering, transiency and soullessness. As for the ardor of right effort there is this from A. IV, 13 in Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": "The monk rouses his will to *avoid* the arising of evil, unwholesome things not yet arisen ... to *overcome* them ... to *develop* wholesome things not yet arisen ... to *maintain* them, and not let them disappear, but to bring them to growth, to maturity and to the full perfection of development. And he makes effort, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives." See also Nina's Perfection of Energy in the archives. Larry 16842 From: Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:50pm Subject: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Hi again, Nina (and all) - I just re-read the following attempt at humor by me, and, to my dismay, I can see that it might easily be considered offensive. That was far from my intention. (In fact, I intended it to be open to alternative readings one of which makes fun of myself.) Please excuse me for not being more careful. I do apologize if I caused any offense by this. I wouldn't want to offend even those whom I think little of, let alone you folks whom I value so highly! With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/10/02 6:08:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 11/10/02 3:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > nilo@e... > writes: > > >Howard, > >you made me laugh. Maybe a Freudian slip unknowingly? :-) > > > > > ====================== > Hmm! A slipping, unmanifestive!! ;-)) - Howard > > "One can't believe impossible things." > "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your > > age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed > as > many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Lewis Carroll > > Vi~n~nanam means whatever I define it to mean - Lewis Carroll (or somebody! > > ;-) > ======================= > I do apologize. I just couldn't resist! (Mara made me do it! ;-)) > > With manic metta, > Howard > > P.S. While I'm at it, here's a genuine quote of Lewis Carroll which shows > the > importance of Right Understanding: "If you don't know where you are going, > any road will get you there." ;-)) > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16843 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:13pm Subject: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Howard, Offensive? Huh? I thought your post was really thought provoking. Lewis Carrol is one of my favorite authors because of his ability to show the absurdity of holding onto the meanings of words, ideas, or beliefs too tightly. He purposefully shakes up the reader so that what was once taken for granted won't be taken for granted any longer. Very Buddhist Detachment and very Zen. I appreciated your post for its deeper meaning and humor. I don't think you were offending anyone, you were just pointing out that things aren't always what they seem…especially words. Often times I am just plain silly, but you were silly with a higher purpose. I hope that you continue to occasionally rattle all of our cages of assumed reality. Metta, James 16844 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 9:25pm Subject: Re: Way 23, Comm --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html [Tika] Although the term burning [atapana] is applied to the abandoning of defilements here, it is also applicable to right view, thought, speech, action, livelihood, mindfulness and concentration. As "ardour" [atapa], like "glow" [atappa], is restricted by use to just energy generally, it is said: "ardour is a name for energy." Or because of the occurrence of energy [viriya] by way of instigating the associated things, in the abandoning of opposing qualities, that itself (i.e., energy) is ardour (atapa]. In this place only energy [viriya] is referred to by "atapa". By taking the word ardent [atapi] the Master points out the one possessed of right energy or exertion [sammappadhana]. Hi All, It is funny that I read this tonight because it touches on something I was thinking about. Tonight I am having one of those nights, I am not sure if others have these times or not, when I am naturally reflective, naturally peaceful, and naturally meditative. I was driving back home from seeing a movie, and I spontaneously became aware of my breathing through my nose. I felt every breath and felt calm seep through my body like water through a sponge. I came home and I immediately wanted to meditate and felt that my mind was very alert. And, though not Buddhist detachment, I kept thinking to myself, "What in the heck did I do differently tonight? I really appreciate this state-of-mind and would like to be able to repeat it at will. Why can't I be like this all of the time? Or at least most of the time?" In reading the suttas, I know that the Buddha encouraged his monks to cultivate this `mental attitude' using the methods listed above. So obviously, the Buddha knew that such a state doesn't arise naturally that often and it must be worked on. However, I have found that the natural states are about 80% better in quality and benefit than those states that are forced naturally. For example, I can set up a schedule for meditation everyday at a certain time and for a certain length. Often times, following this schedule is not easy or fun. Of course, when the meditation is over, I am thankful that I did it; but I don't approach it usually as something I really want to do. However, when I have one of the states like I have tonight, I can hardly wait to meditate. I almost felt like pulling my car off the road and meditating for a while or so. And the resulting meditation tonight was more reflective, calm and inspiring than that I have forced. I guess what I am thinking about is to how to generate that natural enthusiasm for meditation artificially? Is that even possible or is that an oxymoron? And those meditators who say that it doesn't matter the reason for doing it, it should just be done…are not being completely honest. It does matter or the Buddha wouldn't have encouraged his monks to cultivate the desire to meditate. I have searched for many years to find the secret to how to use the artificial to create a natural, or close to natural, enthusiasm about meditation and I have yet to find that secret. Honestly, guilt about not meditating has been the most effective motivator for me to do it lately. And this doesn't always work so I don't meditate as often as I should, or as often as I did when I first began meditation. I guess the love affair is over. How can I put some 'Spice' back into my relationship with meditation? Hmmm…sounds like an article for a 'Buddhist Galmour' magazine! :-) Just my thoughts. If anyone has specific advice or techniques that have worked for you, I would welcome input. Metta, James 16845 From: James Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:57pm Subject: Re: luminous, pure . --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: (BTW, > the BPS also very much enjoys my Buddhist writings. The chief > publisher under Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ven. Mettahivariti, described them in > correspondence with me as `light, refreshing and unique', and reached > an agreement with me to publish a book of them…in regards to my > journey to become a monk. The book was going to be titled "Buddha > True; Practical Buddhism and the Modern Monk" I didn't become a monk > so that book proposal fell through…sent them photos of me, had half > of the book written, etc...oh well. But I had other publishers > interested in my writings alone, regardless of the monk angle, so I > may publish a book one day of my Buddhist ideas/journey.) Hey All, I wasn't sure if I would mention this or not, but with Howard's recent public apology I guess it is okay to present a public apology of my own. I was reading some of my posts to my boyfriend, and he was very displeased about this particular post above. He said that I sound like I am bragging or something to go on and on about my past with writing a book. I told him that I just mentioned it off-hand because it seemed to fit the current discussion and I was reminded of it. He said I should have just mentioned it then and not gone into such depth; and I probably meant to subconsciously in order to 'show off'. He told me that to do so demonstrates that I have a definite issue with `Pride' and that is against Buddhism. Darn it, I hate it when he is so right! (I guess it is my karma to be moderated everywhere until I get it!) :-) I apologize to everyone for my obvious display of pride and conceit in this post. I will try to keep my posts to pure dharma and not my personal life…though that is very difficult for me. I cannot seem to separate my life from dharma or dharma from my life. And I honestly don't think people should. But I don't have to blab about myself all the time in these posts. Sorry again. Metta, James 16846 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Dear James, --- James wrote: > > Imagine this scenerio, which I have played out more times than I care > to remember: I read a sentence that has three Pali words and each of > them are essential for understanding the sentence. I go to the > online dictionary, which means I must open another window and jump > back and forth, and then I find the meaning of the first word. > However, I can't find the meaning of the second word. It tells me it > doesn't exist and doesn't offer approximate words to choose from. I > look up the meaning of the last word, hoping that by context clues I > will be able to figure out the sentence. I do get the meaning of > that word. However, the missing word makes all of the difference and > I still don't understand the sentence. I have spent at least 15 > minutes trying to find out the meaning of one sentence, end up > fruitless, and see that the rest of the post is FILLED with even more > Pali, which may or may not be spelled correctly. Whew! It is a > true test of Buddhist equanimity… :-) I knew that I needed a print > dictionary to understand these posts. ..... ;-) It’s hard not to smile about your frustrating experience. James, I really admire the diligence and the trouble you go to. A few more tips, in the hope that at least one will be of some use. (Just as we all now see Howard as our ‘model’ meditator, for this exercise I’m thinking of Kom as our ‘model’ abhidhamma writer -thanks, Kom-;-)) 1. If you’re new to the list and new to the Pali terms - relax. it takes time to ‘tune in’. For the Star Kids, I select the appropriate posts or just those written to them. We all have to do a little selection of what we are ready to hear as well. 2. Posts are usually written in the language appropriate for the ‘named’ recipient. When you write to the Star Kids, you use simple language that they'll find helpful. So if Kom is writing to Larry, he knows Larry will mostly be able to follow the Pali terms used, having discussed the entire ADL in detail already.These terms often/usually convey the meaning more precisely. (If Kom and Num are speaking together, then really watch out - you may need a ThaiPali dict;-)) 3. Print out the Pali-English glossary Christine mentioned from the Files section and keep it next to your computer: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ You will find that about 80% of the terms Kom and most of us use are contained in this list. (I don’t quite guarantee that rate for Rahula’s, Suan’s or Num’s posts which have me pulling out dictionaries too;-)) 4. If it’s a topic of special interest and you suspect some brilliance, ask Kom or the poster to explain further. Just as a kid in class who raises a hand to say “I don’t understand’ does the rest of the class a big favour, so will you. There will always be plenty of other lurkers quietly thanking you for this. 5. Use escribe to check back on a thread which may have started weeks, months or years ago, such as a couple B.Bodhi responded to. The dictionaries won’t be very helpful, but some past posts may be. For example, BB’s post to Suan is on the use of ‘pilapanti’ as used in the Satipatthana Sutta. Key this word into the search on escribe (while it’s up and running) and you’ll find it neatly shows 5 or 6 recent messages about the term, starting with Jim’s. If it’s still too confusing, again ask for clarification or a summary and challenge those using the terms;-) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ 6. Use ‘Useful Posts’ and look under topics on which clarification or some past posts may be useful. For example, for some current threads, look under: Nibbana, Udana, Rupas, Luminous, Khandhas. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ 7. Whatever else, keep encouraging our models like Kom.....;-)) ..... > I will keep reading the posts though, and may respond to any which I > can understand. Believe it or not, some posts speak to me in a > certain way, even when I don't cognitively understand what is > written; I can tell that they have said something important. That is > why I am willing to dish out $40.00 on a dictionary of a thousands-of- > years-old dead language. (The clerk at the bookstore was confused and > asked me where they spoke Pali since he had never heard of it. I > told him, 'The Internet' :-) ..... I expect he thinks we’ve made up our own language;-) Actually, I’ve used dictionaries very little over the years (as I’m not a pali scholar), although I’ve always found the Nyantiloka dictionary very useful. For most the terms in question, one has to understand a meaning that goes beyond a definition. For example, if you read rupa: physical phenomena or that which cannot experience, it doesn’t help very much. Like Nina has the alphabet at the front of the dictionary with the page numbers, I have tabs in the PTS dict with letters on. Really though, one should learn the alphabet just as a child does in English. The Pali alphabet is far more logical as it follows the phonetic pronunciation according to lingusistic rules. Hope there’s something helpful here. James, you really encourage us all with your keen interest and you have the right priorities in your abhidhamma and other studies: i.e the relevance to daily life and understand of present phenomena or realities. In appreciation, Sarah ===== 16847 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:46pm Subject: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Hi Howard, Howard wrote:> P.S. While I'm at it, here's a genuine quote of Lewis Carroll which shows > the > importance of Right Understanding: "If you don't know where you are going, > any road will get you there." ;-)) > -------------------------------- Christine: I'll see your 'Lewis Carroll quote' and raise you one 'Thomas Merton': "How do you expect to arrive at the end of your journey if you take the road to another one's city?" Be at ease Howard, you are never offensive - however, taking advantage of your guilt and remorse (am I overstating the case?), could you please point me to a reference or link for this previous statement of yours? (consider this question vipaka :)). > Moreover the notion of > nibbana/parinibbana as "vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato > paham" is not > "Howard's concept of nibbaana," but was expressed by the Buddha, ------------------------------------ metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Nina (and all) - > > I just re-read the following attempt at humor by me, and, to my > dismay, I can see that it might easily be considered offensive. That was far > from my intention. (In fact, I intended it to be open to alternative readings > one of which makes fun of myself.) > Please excuse me for not being more careful. I do apologize if I > caused any offense by this. I wouldn't want to offend even those whom I think > little of, let alone you folks whom I value so highly! > > With metta, > Howard > 16848 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 0:12am Subject: Apologies and bragging (was: luminous, pure ) Hi James, I can’t resist responding to this post of yours: --- James wrote: > > I wasn't sure if I would mention this or not, but with Howard's > recent public apology I guess it is okay to present a public apology > of my own. I was reading some of my posts to my boyfriend, and he > was very displeased about this particular post above. He said that I > sound like I am bragging or something to go on and on about my past > with writing a book. .... Be grateful you have a concerned good friend to point out any hometruths. From the commentary to the metta sutta in The Minor Readings (Khuddakapatha) on the meaning of: “And Meek and gentle and not proud”, we read: “....For a person who, when told ‘this ought not to be done’ says ‘What has been seen by you? What has been heard by you? Who are you that you speak to me; are you a Preceptor, Teacher, friend, compamion?’ or obstructs with silence or accepts (the admonition) but does not act on it, is far from arriving at any distinction; but one who, when advised, says ‘Good, venerable sir, well said. What is blameworthy is hard to see in oneslelf. If you should see me again thus, tell me out of compassion. may I long have advice from you’ and practises acording as instructed, is not far from arriving at distinction. That is why he would be meek (easily-speakable-to) by accepting (others’ advice) and acting on it. And he would be gentle (mud: lit. ‘malleable’) just as he would be meek...........Or alternatively, the word gentle (means that) he would be without grimaces, open-countenanced, easy to talk with and as welcoming as a good ford with an easy approach. And he would be not only gentle but also not proud (anatimaanii) as well; he would not be proud towards others on account of such grounds for pride as birth, race, etc, but would abide like the elder Sariputta even-minded (to all alike) whether outcaste or prince.” ***** We all have a long way to go until we’re even-minded like Sariputta and I appreciate that you were able to listen on this occasion and smile about it as well. I was given a reminder yesterday of some speech on my part that was possibly indiscreet and am only too aware of the pride and clinging to self which can hear these reminders when there isn’t any “meek, gentle and not proud’ listening. As you have been suggesting, if any abhidhamma or other knowledge is merely intellectual, one may become proud and arrogant, not understanding the purpose of the Buddha’s compassion in sharing all the Teachings with us. ..... >I told him that I just mentioned it off-hand > because it seemed to fit the current discussion and I was reminded of > it. He said I should have just mentioned it then and not gone into > such depth; and I probably meant to subconsciously in order to 'show > off'. He told me that to do so demonstrates that I have a definite > issue with `Pride' and that is against Buddhism. Darn it, I hate it > when he is so right! (I guess it is my karma to be moderated > everywhere until I get it!):-) ..... ;-) Luckily for all of us here, you and your friend are doing it for us:-) .... > I apologize to everyone for my > obvious display of pride and conceit in this post. I will try to > keep my posts to pure dharma and not my personal life…though that is > very difficult for me. I cannot seem to separate my life from dharma > or dharma from my life. And I honestly don't think people should. > But I don't have to blab about myself all the time in these posts. > Sorry again. .... I’m sure we were all smiling, don’t worry;-) The comments the Ven made about your written style were very true. Maybe half-way through the book you can just show your U-turn and how your ‘monastery’ became the internet, and you replaced the robes for the armchair to consider satipatthana and the vinaya (if that doesn’t sound disrespectful in anyway). Seriously, I think it’s so helpful to begin to know and be honest about one’s real tendencies and accumulations -- all of which are not-self-- and to live naturally without forcing a way of life which may not be suitable. Sarah ===== 16849 From: James Mitchell Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous, pure . Sarah, Thanks for these helpful hints. I am going to print out that list and start to use it. These 'behind the scenes' details are very helpful. Thank you for the effort to help me understand better. Very kind of you. Metta, James --- Sarah wrote: > Dear James, > > --- James wrote: > > > > Imagine this scenerio, which I have played out > more times than I care > > to remember: I read a sentence that has three Pali > words and each of > > them are essential for understanding the sentence. > I go to the > > online dictionary, which means I must open another > window and jump > > back and forth, and then I find the meaning of the > first word. > > However, I can't find the meaning of the second > word. It tells me it > > doesn't exist and doesn't offer approximate words > to choose from. I > > look up the meaning of the last word, hoping that > by context clues I > > will be able to figure out the sentence. I do get > the meaning of > > that word. However, the missing word makes all of > the difference and > > I still don't understand the sentence. I have > spent at least 15 > > minutes trying to find out the meaning of one > sentence, end up > > fruitless, and see that the rest of the post is > FILLED with even more > > Pali, which may or may not be spelled correctly. > Whew! It is a > > true test of Buddhist equanimity… :-) I knew that > I needed a print > > dictionary to understand these posts. > ..... > ;-) It’s hard not to smile about your frustrating > experience. James, I > really admire the diligence and the trouble you go > to. > > A few more tips, in the hope that at least one will > be of some use. (Just > as we all now see Howard as our ‘model’ meditator, > for this exercise I’m > thinking of Kom as our ‘model’ abhidhamma writer > -thanks, Kom-;-)) > > 1. If you’re new to the list and new to the Pali > terms - relax. it takes > time to ‘tune in’. For the Star Kids, I select the > appropriate posts or > just those written to them. We all have to do a > little selection of what > we are ready to hear as well. > > 2. Posts are usually written in the language > appropriate for the ‘named’ > recipient. When you write to the Star Kids, you use > simple language that > they'll find helpful. So if Kom is writing to Larry, > he knows Larry will > mostly be able to follow the Pali terms used, having > discussed the entire > ADL in detail already.These terms often/usually > convey the meaning more > precisely. > (If Kom and Num are speaking together, then really > watch out - you may > need a ThaiPali dict;-)) > > 3. Print out the Pali-English glossary Christine > mentioned from the Files > section and keep it next to your computer: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > You will find that about 80% of the terms Kom and > most of us use are > contained in this list. (I don’t quite guarantee > that rate for Rahula’s, > Suan’s or Num’s posts which have me pulling out > dictionaries too;-)) > > 4. If it’s a topic of special interest and you > suspect some brilliance, > ask Kom or the poster to explain further. Just as a > kid in class who > raises a hand to say “I don’t understand’ does the > rest of the class a big > favour, so will you. There will always be plenty of > other lurkers quietly > thanking you for this. > > 5. Use escribe to check back on a thread which may > have started weeks, > months or years ago, such as a couple B.Bodhi > responded to. The > dictionaries won’t be very helpful, but some past > posts may be. For > example, BB’s post to Suan is on the use of > ‘pilapanti’ as used in the > Satipatthana Sutta. Key this word into the search on > escribe (while it’s > up and running) and you’ll find it neatly shows 5 > or 6 recent messages > about the term, starting with Jim’s. If it’s still > too confusing, again > ask for clarification or a summary and challenge > those using the terms;-) > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ > > 6. Use ‘Useful Posts’ and look under topics on which > clarification or some > past posts may be useful. For example, for some > current threads, look > under: Nibbana, Udana, Rupas, Luminous, Khandhas. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > > 7. Whatever else, keep encouraging our models like > Kom.....;-)) > ..... > > I will keep reading the posts though, and may > respond to any which I > > can understand. Believe it or not, some posts > speak to me in a > > certain way, even when I don't cognitively > understand what is > > written; I can tell that they have said something > important. That is > > why I am willing to dish out $40.00 on a > dictionary of a thousands-of- > > years-old dead language. (The clerk at the > bookstore was confused and > > asked me where they spoke Pali since he had never > heard of it. I > > told him, 'The Internet' :-) > ..... > I expect he thinks we’ve made up our own language;-) > Actually, I’ve used > dictionaries very little over the years (as I’m not > a pali scholar), > although I’ve always found the Nyantiloka dictionary > very useful. For most > the terms in question, one has to understand a > meaning that goes beyond a > definition. For example, if you read rupa: physical > phenomena or that > which cannot experience, it doesn’t help very much. > > Like Nina has the alphabet at the front of the > dictionary with the page > numbers, I have tabs in the PTS dict with letters > on. Really though, one > should learn the alphabet just as a child does in > English. The Pali > alphabet is far more logical as it follows the > phonetic pronunciation > according to lingusistic rules. > > Hope there’s something helpful here. James, you > really encourage us all > with your keen interest and you have the right > priorities in your > abhidhamma and other studies: i.e the relevance to > daily life and > understand of present phenomena or realities. > > In appreciation, > > Sarah > ===== > > > ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16850 From: James Mitchell Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies and bragging (was: luminous, pure ) --- Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > I can’t resist responding to this post of yours: Sarah, I didn't expect anyone to reply, but I am glad that it is you and that you aren't being 'superior' in your response. I am not perfect but, unlike some, I don't accept my imperfections as a permanent condition. There are no excuses for poor, short-sighted behavior when correct behavior is possible. I encourage my boyfriend to point out to me whenever he sees me doing some of my habitually negative traits: Pride, Irritation, and Attachment. I ask him to do this because I normally don't see them in myself but others can more easily see them. When he does this, I don't argue, I thank him for telling me and take note to avoid that behavior in the future. I don't say to myself, "Well, that's just the way I am." Or make excuses...hmmm...maybe a little ;-). Life is very complicated but I do sincerely want to be the best person I can be. I want to be someone who looks back at his life when I am about to die and to know that I did the best I could to be a decent human being. Metta, James ===== Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ 16851 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies and bragging (was: luminous, pure ) Hi James, This reminds me of a discussion that we have been having in our class recently. We are studying conditional relations and it is clear that akusala (bad) factors can condition kusala (good) results. I used the example of why I volunteered to teach the class; there was an element of conceit (mana), which is akusala, in my decision making, even though the end result was good. Why do I work so hard to prepare each week for my class? There is definitely some fear (dosa), fear of making a fool of myself, involved. Certainly there is a drive to investigate the dhamma (vimamsa), which is kusala, involved, but the end result (which is good) is certainly conditioned by some bad accumulations. The trick is to know your own bad accumulations and try to channel the energy from them into doing something good. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., James Mitchell wrote: > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi James, > > > > I can't resist responding to this post of yours: > > Sarah, > > I didn't expect anyone to reply, but I am glad that it > is you and that you aren't being 'superior' in your > response. I am not perfect but, unlike some, I don't > accept my imperfections as a permanent condition. > There are no excuses for poor, short-sighted behavior > when correct behavior is possible. I encourage my > boyfriend to point out to me whenever he sees me doing > some of my habitually negative traits: Pride, > Irritation, and Attachment. I ask him to do this > because I normally don't see them in myself but others > can more easily see them. When he does this, I don't > argue, I thank him for telling me and take note to > avoid that behavior in the future. I don't say to > myself, "Well, that's just the way I am." Or make > excuses...hmmm...maybe a little ;-). > > Life is very complicated but I do sincerely want to be > the best person I can be. I want to be someone who > looks back at his life when I am about to die and to > know that I did the best I could to be a decent human > being. > > Metta, James > > ===== > Two men look out the same prison bars; one sees mud and the other stars. > > ~ Frederick Langbridge ~ > 16852 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:16am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Suan,and All, Thank you for your post. I understand why you are suggesting that I stick to the Buddha's own unmistakeable definition of nibbana - but it is a little like being told not to think of 'elephants', the harder one tries and the more one checks what thinking is thinking, the more impossible it becomes. It's 'elephants' everywhere in there. :) And this is a little more difficult - Thanissaro Bhikkhu, with his translations of selected suttas freely available on Access to Insight, has shaped Buddhist practice for perhaps the majority of western Theravada Buddhists and their teachers, particularly their understanding of meditation. The quote "The consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all." was Verse 25 is in MN49 hard copy trans. Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi "Middle Length discourses of the Buddha" (Wisdom, 1995) top of page 428. The Sutta is very long (seven pages) but I have found note 513 which may give you a clue as to where it is in your translation. (If you think Maurice Walshe's rendition at the end of n.513 hits the mark, I'll be happy with that.) n.513 reads "These lines (which also appear as part of a full verse at DN 11.85/i.223) have been a perennial challenge to Buddhist scholarship, and even Acariya Buddhaghosa seems to founder over them. MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the sense that "it can be cognized". This is obviously a contrived derivation, since nowhere in the Canon is Nibbana ever described as consciousness. <<{As you also said Suan, "It has no backing from the traditional Pali texts.}>> MA offers three explanations of the phrase subbato pabham: (1) completely possessed of splendour (pabha); (2) possessing being (pabhutam) everywhere; and (3) a ford (pahham) accessible from all sides, i.e. through any of the thirty-eight meditation objects. Only the first of these seems to have any linguistic legitimacy. Nm, in Ms, explains that he takes pabham to be a negative present participle of pabhavati - apabham - the negative-prefix 'a' dropping off in conjunction with sabbato: "The sense can be paraphrased freely by 'not predicating being in relation to "all,"' or 'not assuming of "all" that it is or is not in an absolute sense.'" As an alternative translation more in keeping with MA, Maurice Walshe renders "... consciousness [that] is signless, boundless, all- luminous". (Thus Have I Heard, p.179). I'm not sure what Ms or MA mean either. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Christine > > You asked: > > "May somebody explain verse 25 to me, and also, what do you reckon > about note 1 below seeming to state there is a form of eternal > consciousness?" > > verse 25: "The consciousness that makes no showing, > And in becoming about to disbecome, > Not claiming being with respect to all." > > > Where did you get verse 25? I could not find it in MN49 and MN109. > > Before I explain verse 25, I need to read it in the original Pali. > > According to Udaana description of nibbana, there is no eternal > consciousness. To my knowledge, there is no other type of > consciousness outside the consciousness aggrtegate in the five > aggregates. > > > You also asked: > > "what do you reckon about note 1 below seeming to state there is a > form of eternal consciousness?" > > That note is merely Sayadaw Thannisaro's personal speculation > (attanomati). It has no backing from the traditional Pali texts. > > The very fact that he felt the need to write that note showed that he > himslef must have found it surprising or unbelievable in the first > place. Otherwise, he would not have gone out of his way to write that > note. > > Please kindly read, ponder and stick to the Buddha's own unmistakable > definition of nibbaana in Udaana. > > > With kind regards, > > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org 16853 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies and bragging (was: luminous, pure ) Hi James, --- James Mitchell wrote: > > I didn't expect anyone to reply, but I am glad that it > is you and that you aren't being 'superior' in your > response. .... ;-) thanks, I'd be wanting an excuse to quote the piece from the commentary and this was the excuse I needed. I was really writing it for myself as I need to hear a lot of reminders and certainly have nothing to be 'superior' about in this (or any other) regard. Thanks for your good example (In yr other comments - very impressive) and for your boyfriend's assistance. Maybe he can monitor us all?? J/K Sarah >I am not perfect but, unlike some, I don't > accept my imperfections as a permanent condition. > There are no excuses for poor, short-sighted behavior > when correct behavior is possible. I encourage my > boyfriend to point out to me whenever he sees me doing > some of my habitually negative traits: Pride, > Irritation, and Attachment. I ask him to do this > because I normally don't see them in myself but others > can more easily see them. When he does this, I don't > argue, I thank him for telling me and take note to > avoid that behavior in the future. I don't say to > myself, "Well, that's just the way I am." Or make > excuses...hmmm...maybe a little ;-). 16854 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:18am Subject: Rupa Dear James, Just a point about rupa and the Abhidhamma. You can also find many suttas where the Buddha expounded on rupa eg: III. 2. 5. Bahudhaatukasutta.m- (115) The Discourse on Many Elements ......... When this was said, venerable Aananda asked the Blessed One, `Venerable sir, saying it rightly how does the wise bhikkhu become an inquirer?'.......... ``There is a method. The bhikkhu becomes clever in the six elements, such as the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness, Ananda, these are the six elements, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the elements'.""""" We can check and find out whether attachment is conditioned by rupa? Do some visble objects (ie rupayatana) condition attachment, some aversion, some neither? Do some tastes (type of rupa) do the same; smells, touched objects, sounds? Robert 16855 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:25am Subject: Re: a letter form Charles Bleach --- Dear Charles, I wish I had known what you know when I was 8. In my childhood none of my friends or teachers knew about kamma so mostly we all did what we were told to do (unless we thought we could get away with something secretly) . And when I was a teeenager I lived a reckless life because I really had no idea about what life is. Now I make sure my children understand about kamma, like you do; it makes such a big difference now and in the future. I hope you can continue on your understanding. "My mother is > the head of BVLGARI (the V is a U Great job! I use BVlgari for men. My wife and I divorced too. Kind regards robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., Star Kid wrote: > > > Dear Jan, > > I don't know much about Buddhism.What was your poem? I > cant really say anything because I'm only 8 years old. > I almost forgot my name is Charles. I come from Hong > Kong. I like playing football, swimming and gym. I > like animals such as eagle's, rabbits, rats, pigeon's > and hawks and I like race cars. > > I understood everything in the letters about Buddhism. > I think we never really die we just get reborn as a > human if we are good, if your very good you get reborn > as a god, if your nice you get reborn as an animal, > if your bad you get reborn as an insect. > > My parents are very nice people. My father is a > barrister, he likes painting with me. My mother is > the head of BVLGARI (the V is a U) and they just > divorced. > > My nationality is half English a quarter French and a > quarter of Vietnamese. > > From Charles > P.S : Jan helped me type this up. > > 16856 From: Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 0:51am Subject: Re: Apology for Heedlessness (Re: [dsg] Re: typo.) Hi, Christine - In a message dated 11/11/02 2:47:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > > Howard wrote:> P.S. While I'm at it, here's a genuine quote of Lewis > Carroll which shows > >the > >importance of Right Understanding: "If you don't know where you are > going, > >any road will get you there." ;-)) > > > -------------------------------- > Christine: I'll see your 'Lewis Carroll quote' and raise you > one 'Thomas Merton': > > "How do you expect to arrive at the end of your journey > if you take the road to another one's city?" > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: My quote toasts yours! Cheers!! (I don't drink, but I can remember! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- > > Be at ease Howard, you are never offensive > > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. (Also thanks to James, whom I wrote privately.) My post was ill considered, however, and I do hope that Nina is "okay" with it.) -------------------------------------------- - however, taking > > advantage of your guilt and remorse (am I overstating the case?), > could you please point me to a reference or link for this previous > statement of yours? (consider this question vipaka :)). -------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) I'm getting off easy then! The url is the following: http://www.creativequotations.com/one/336a.htm -------------------------------------------- > > >Moreover the notion of > >nibbana/parinibbana as "vi~n~nanam anidassanam anantam sabbato > >paham" is not > >"Howard's concept of nibbaana," but was expressed by the Buddha, > ------------------------------------ > > metta, > Christine > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16857 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:17am Subject: Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Dear Christine, Nina, and All How are you? Recently, Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote in his message "On The Luminous Mind" the following: "A cautious principle that I follow is to avoid constructing novel interpretations of the Dhamma on the basis of a few isolated canonical passages, particularly those in verse (not the case here). It is always best to build one?s interpretations upon those ideas that are found repeatedly in the Nikayas, and then to assume that any apparently deviant statement can somehow be interpreted in a way consistent with these main ?building blocks? of interpretation." Sayadaw's advice above is what the Buddha would call "Yoniso manasikaaro". Yoniso manasikaaro is one of the causes for a healthy consciousness to arise. I would like to translate yoniso manasikaaro literally as the making of an object in the mind sensibly". "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in Mn49 is part of the verse as found in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. Because it is part of a verse, we need to take extra care when we try to make sense of it. We also need to check what the Arahant commentators and the traditional ascetic commentators had to say on the matter. And, we also need to remember what 99.99 % of the Buddha's repeated teachings convey in Pali Tipitaka texts. Moreover, we also need to be aware of the linguistic anomalies in natural languages such as Pali and English. There is such a linguistic anomaly as homonym. A homonym is "a word pronounced and often spelled the same as another but having a different meaning." It is very common for the poets to use homonyms and synonyms in their poems and verses to give the readers the unusual feel-good factor and unexpected insights. The verse in Section 499, Keva.t.ta Suttam is no different from other poems in provoking the readers with its use of homonyms and contrasts. "Viññaa.nam" in the Keva.t.ta verse is a HOMONYM. I am a multi-ligual. When we learn a foreign language, we aim to become more and more mature and sophisticated in the new language we are learning. Once we have mastered the grammar and syntax rules, we need to handle words progressively and sensitively. Words with the same looks and sounds change their meanings in different contexts. One of the most blatant examples of homonyms, one with loftiest meaning and the other with the lowliest meaning is "abhuutam". "Abhuutam", when describing nibbaana in Udaana, means "neither caused by others, nor self-caused". But, "abhuutam" in the phrase "abhuutam ataccham" in Section 86, Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya means "untruth". No self-respecting, liguistically mature Pali scholar would not translate the term "abhuutam" in the definition of nibbaana in Section 73, Tatiyanibbaanapa.tisamyutta Suttam, Udaana Pali, as UNTRUTH even though "abhuutam" can mean "untruth" in in Section 86, Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya. Therefore, the term "Viññaa.nam" in "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in Mn49 and in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo must be treated as a HOMONYM and translated according to the context by examining the message of the verse as a whole, not just that term in isolation. By carefully reading and examining the verse as whole and treating the term "Viññaa.nam" as a HOMONYM, and by consulting the commentaries, I reached the conclusion that we cannot translate the term "Viññaa.nam" in the Keva.t.ta Suttam verse as consciousness. We can leave "Viññaa.nam" as it is without translating it. We never translate the term "nibbaana", do we? Or if we must translate it, we can translate it as nibbaana in line with the commentary on Keva.t.ta Suttam. Some Pali scholars who think that Pali language does not have homonyms, and who think they know better than the standard commentaries may translate as they please. With kind reagrd Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Suan,and All, > > Thank you for your post. I understand why you are suggesting that I > stick to the Buddha's own unmistakeable definition of nibbana - but > it is a little like being told not to think of 'elephants', the > > metta, > Christine > 16858 From: Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana As The Matterless And Sentienceless State Hi, Suan - It is an interesting idea that 'viññaa.nam' might be a homonym in this usage with a meaning other than consciousness. There are, of course, loads of homonyms in virtually all languages. For example, in English 'sound' may refer to an auditory event or to a body of water, two completely unrelated meanings, both occurring broadly throughout the language. But one should know what the meaning of 'viññaa.nam' is in this given usage. It would need to be something which would make sense as being "non-manifestive, infinite, accessible from all round." It is not unreasonable to say that nibbana fits that. So, one might say that, there, 'viññaa.nam' simply means nibbana. The question arises, however, of whether anyone knows of even one other canonical reference for 'viññaa.nam' with the meaning of nibbana. If not, it is quite a "push" to think that this argument explains away the issue. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/11/02 10:16:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > Dear Christine, Nina, and All > > How are you? > > Recently, Sayadaw Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote in his message "On The Luminous > Mind" the following: > > "A cautious principle that I follow is to avoid constructing novel > interpretations of the Dhamma on the basis of a few isolated > canonical passages, particularly those in verse (not the case here). > It is always best to build one?s interpretations upon those ideas > that are found repeatedly in the Nikayas, and then to assume that any > apparently deviant statement can somehow be interpreted in a way > consistent with these main ?building blocks? of interpretation." > > Sayadaw's advice above is what the Buddha would call "Yoniso > manasikaaro". Yoniso manasikaaro is one of the causes for a healthy > consciousness to arise. I would like to translate yoniso manasikaaro > literally as the making of an object in the mind sensibly". > > "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in > Mn49 is part of the verse as found in Section 499 in Keva.t.ta > Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo. > > Because it is part of a verse, we need to take extra care when we try > to make sense of it. We also need to check what the Arahant > commentators and the traditional ascetic commentators had to say on > the matter. And, we also need to remember what 99.99 % of the > Buddha's repeated teachings convey in Pali Tipitaka texts. > > Moreover, we also need to be aware of the linguistic anomalies in > natural languages such as Pali and English. There is such a > linguistic anomaly as homonym. > > A homonym is "a word pronounced and often spelled the same as another > but having a different meaning." > > It is very common for the poets to use homonyms and synonyms in their > poems and verses to give the readers the unusual feel-good factor and > unexpected insights. > > The verse in Section 499, Keva.t.ta Suttam is no different from other > poems in provoking the readers with its use of homonyms and > contrasts. > > "Viññaa.nam" in the Keva.t.ta verse is a HOMONYM. > > I am a multi-ligual. When we learn a foreign language, we aim to > become more and more mature and sophisticated in the new language we > are learning. Once we have mastered the grammar and syntax rules, we > need to handle words progressively and sensitively. Words with the > same looks and sounds change their meanings in different contexts. > > One of the most blatant examples of homonyms, one with loftiest > meaning and the other with the lowliest meaning is "abhuutam". > > "Abhuutam", when describing nibbaana in Udaana, means "neither caused > by others, nor self-caused". > > But, "abhuutam" in the phrase "abhuutam ataccham" in Section 86, > Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya > means "untruth". > > No self-respecting, liguistically mature Pali scholar would not > translate the term "abhuutam" in the definition of nibbaana in > Section 73, Tatiyanibbaanapa.tisamyutta Suttam, Udaana Pali, as > UNTRUTH even though "abhuutam" can mean "untruth" in in Section 86, > Abhayaraajakumaara Suttam, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, Majjhimanikaaya. > > Therefore, the term "Viññaa.nam" in "Viññaa.nam anidassanam anantam > sabbato pabham" in Section 504 in Mn49 and in Section 499 in > Keva.t.ta Suttam, Siilakkhandha Vaggo, Diighanikaayo must be treated > as a HOMONYM and translated according to the context by examining the > message of the verse as a whole, not just that term in isolation. > > By carefully reading and examining the verse as whole and treating > the term "Viññaa.nam" as a HOMONYM, and by consulting the > commentaries, I reached the conclusion that we cannot translate the > term "Viññaa.nam" in the Keva.t.ta Suttam verse as consciousness. > > We can leave "Viññaa.nam" as it is without translating it. We never > translate the term "nibbaana", do we? Or if we must translate it, we > can translate it as nibbaana in line with the commentary on Keva.t.ta > Suttam. > > Some Pali scholars who think that Pali language does not have > homonyms, and who think they know better than the standard > commentaries may translate as they please. > > With kind reagrd > > Suan > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 16859 From: James Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:37am Subject: Re: Rupa Robert, Thank you for this sutta quote. I had never read it before. It is fascinating because I haven't read too much of the Buddha speaking physics. BUT, and this is a very big question, it appears to me here, very distinctly, that the Buddha is saying that there is no difference between Nama and Rupa. He is saying that consciousness (Nama) is simply another element like earth, air, fire, water, and space (Rupa). So I don't know if this quote necessarily disproves what I was saying in regards to there being a contradiction between the Abhidhamma and the suttas in regards to Rupa and Nama being seperate. Obviously the Buddha didn't seperate them in his 'cosmology'. So actually, you may have further strengthened my original point. But I am not sure if this is an important issue really. I need to finish my studies of the Abhidhamma. This may simply be an issue of perspective and doesn't necessarily contradict the 'dhamma'. With Metta, James ps. I wonder what the Buddha means by the element of 'space'? Is this void? Or could it be support for Einstein's Theory of a 'Space- Time Fabric' that 'fills' the 'space' of the universe. Hmmmm...??? --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear James, > Just a point about rupa and the Abhidhamma. You can also find many > suttas where the Buddha expounded on rupa > eg: III. 2. 5. Bahudhaatukasutta.m- > (115) The Discourse on Many Elements > ......... > When this was said, venerable Aananda asked the Blessed > One, `Venerable sir, saying it rightly how does the wise bhikkhu > become an inquirer?'.......... > > ``There is a method. The bhikkhu becomes clever in the six elements, > such as the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space and > consciousness, Ananda, these are the six elements, when the bhikkhu > knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the > elements'.""""" > > We can check and find out whether attachment is conditioned by rupa? > Do some visble objects (ie rupayatana) condition attachment, some > aversion, some neither? Do some tastes (type of rupa) do the > same; smells, touched objects, sounds? > Robert 16860 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:39am Subject: Re: Rupa Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "James" wrote: > ps. I wonder what the Buddha means by the element of 'space'? Is > this void? Or could it be support for Einstein's Theory of a 'Space- > Time Fabric' that 'fills' the 'space' of the universe. Hmmmm...??? > Rupas always arise in groups (kalapas) which consist of at least eight rupas (the eight inseparable rupas). Our body consists of different groups of rupa and these groups are delimited by the rupa space. Space is the rupa that separates or limits; the infinitesimal space between the groups of rupa. It is "untouched by the four great Elements." Space-element has the characteristic of delimiting material objects, the function of showing their boundaries, the manifestation of showing their limits, state of being untouched by the four great elements and of being their holes and openings as manifestation, the separated objects as proximate cause. It is that of which in the separated groups we say "this is above, this is below, this is across." Space delimits the groups of rupa which are produced by kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition so that they are separate from each other. If there were no space in between the different groups of rupa, these groups would all be connected, not distinct from each other. Space comes into being whenever the groups of rupa are produced by the four factors and therefore it is regarded as originating from these four factors. I don't think that the rupa "space" relates to Einstein's space-time fabric. Prior to Einstein, space and time were considered to be absolutes and independent. One of Einstein's great achievements was to show that they are relative and that they are related. This is where the parallels with Buddhism arise. The relative concept of time is discussed by Ven. Nyanaponika Thera in "Abhidhamma Studies - Buddhist Explorations of Consciousness and Time" and the relative nature of space is covered (with lots of math) in Filita P. Bharucha's, "Buddhist Theory of Causation and Einstein's Theory of Relativity". In brief, the Buddha anticipated many of the concepts now becoming popular in modern science. However, one must understand the difference in focus between the Buddha and modern scientists such as Einstein. The Buddha focused on what we needed to know to escape samsara while modern scientists are looking to control the environment. This is why the Buddha's approach to rupa is quite phenomenological. Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 16861 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:47am Subject: Re: Rupa Hi James, Sorry, I am a little confused. I interpreted the Sutta as listing different paramattha dhammas; consciousness is different from rupa. There is one class of consciousness, 52 classes of cetasikas and 28 classes of rupa. They