18200

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 5:01am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi -

In a message dated 12/26/02 12:37:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
nidive@y... writes:

> Dear Howard,
> 
> >Okay. My point was that jhana or anything else is nothing beyond
> >its aspects/characteristics. You seem to be accepting that in this
> >post.
> 
> No, you are mistaken.
> 
> Consider the characteristics of nibbana described by the Buddha in 
> these sample suttas from AccessToInsight:
> 
> "This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all 
> fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of 
> craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana." 
> -- AN III.32
> 
> "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, 
> nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, 
> nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of 
> nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; 
> neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And 
> there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; 
> neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without 
> foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the 
> end of stress." 
> -- Ud VIII.1 
> 
> "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated. 
> If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, 
> there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- 
> become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely 
> because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, 
> emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is 
> discerned."
> 
------------------------------------------------
Howard:
All the foregoing is a mere "pointing at", and not a listing of 
characteristics. Nibbana is asankhata, and an alleged ascription of 
characteristics is not an actual ascription of characteristics. What the 
Buddha is doing there is the best that can be done with language with respect 
to nibbana, a mere pointing. Nibbana is, after all, an absence - the absence 
of the three poisons and of dukkha. An absence is a thing with properties 
only linguistically, and not in reality. What color is the unicorn that is 
not in my room?
-----------------------------------------------

> 
> 
> Questions...
> 
> (1) Why have you not realized nibbana given the characteristics of
> nibbana?
> 
> (2) If you have not realized nibbana, then is the descriptions of the
> characteristics of nibbana given by the Buddha incomplete?
> 
> (3) If it is incomplete, how do we know that the "nibbana" that we
> know is the same as that known by the Buddha?
> 
> (4) If it is complete, why haven't you realized nibbana? After all,
> nibbana is nothing beyond what the Buddha had described.
> 
> (5) What is the cause of characteristics? Does a ball know that it
> is round? Does nibbana know that it is anatta? What is a
> characteristic other than it is mind-made?
> 
> (6) If a characteristic is mind-made, then a characteristic must be
> impermanent. If a characteristic is impermanent (existing only
> as being sustained by the mind), the characteristic must come to
> cease (pass away). If nibbana is nothing beyond its
> characteristics and all characteristics must come to cease
> (pass away), nibbana must come to cease (pass away) as well.
> 
> (7) If nibbana must come to cease (pass away), how do I understand
> the characteristic of nibbana which is "neither passing away
> nor arising"?
> 
---------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Answers ...

(1) I have already replied with regard to the "characteristics" of 
nibbana. Moreover, knowing conceptually a list of the characteristics of a 
thing is not the same as direct apprehension.

(2), (3), and (4) are unanswerable given the answer to (1).

(5) and (6): I don't know what you mean here by "mind-made". If you 
mean concept-only, then no.

(7) Who claims that nibbana must "come to cease"? Not I.
-------------------------------------------------------


> 
> 
> >You are close to showing in this post, by analysis of
> >characteristics, that what is normally called "jhana" is subsumed
> >and superceded by supermundane path consciousness. To me, this
> >makes supermundane path consciousness "jhana plus".
> 
> No, not so. Your analysis is likened to holding a wedding banquet 
> when there isn't a bride and a groom.
> 
-------------------------------------------
Howard:
Well, I hope the food is good! 
-------------------------------------------

> 
> 
> Regards,
> NEO Swee Boon
> 
> 
=========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
18201

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:04am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues,Qu on Fruition-attainment

 	
Dear Howard, see below.
op 24-12-2002 19:17 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:

As to: 
>> The conclusion regarding the issue of analysis: The ariyan who has not
>> attained jhåna is not able to enter fruition attainment.
=======================
> Exactly what is meant by "attained jhana"? Is it not so that path
> consciousness is attained at least the level of the first jhana? Henepola
> Gunaratana has written the following...
Nina: I appreciate it that you studied this issue and gave it considerable
thought. What you say about calm with lokuttara citta is quite right. This
is mentioned at the end of the issue, as you will see. It is at the
conclusion, but I shall now quote it:
<One may object that when for the ariyan without jhåna attainment the
magga-citta arises there is a high degree of calm with absorption which can
be compared to the calm of the first stage of jhåna. One might therefore
conclude that afterwards he is likely to be able to enter
fruition-attainment with phala-citta accompanied by factors of the first
jhåna (pathama jhånika phala). However, we should consider the following: it
is true that the magga-citta of the ariyan without jhåna-attainment has calm
with absorption equal to the tranquillity of the first jhåna, but this is
because nibbåna is the object at that moment. Since he is without jhåna
attainment and he has lokuttara citta without jhåna factors, samådhi,
concentration, has not sufficient strength so that the citta with strong
absorption in the object of nibbåna could arise again after he attained
enlightenment and became an ariyan.>
Jhana-factors here means: developed by the practice of samatha.
As you will see from the parts that follow, many sources are used for this
issue. It was difficult to translate, because many texts do not exist in
English. I hope Num and Kom will help when you and others ask questions.
Half a minute after I had met Num in Bgk, for the first time, waiting for
the van to go to Kraeng Kacang, we dived into this text and immediately he
phoned Kh Krisna, his aunt. She takes part in the weekly committee meetings
where all the texts are prepared and gives an important imput there. She is
very kind and said she will help again via Num. Just recently another
booklet came out on the latent tendencies.
Nina.
	
18202

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:04am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 28,the three characteristics, stages of insight

 	
Dear Victor and Sarah, see below.
op 24-12-2002 20:59 schreef yu_zhonghao <yu_zhonghao@y...> op
yu_zhonghao@y...:

> Hi Nina and all,
> 
>> From what you wrote, I don't see that you really explained how the
> understanding that hardness is not seeing relates to the
> understanding that each and every aggregate is impermanent,
> unsatisfactory, not self.
> 
> Could you explain it in a more concise language?
I like the way Sarah explained it and I quote:
<In brief, Victor, I think the point Nina was making by including the
detail to this sutta was that comprehending objects of satipatthana as
anicca, dukkha and anatta has to begin by clearly understanding the
difference between nama and rupa. In other words we can't put the icing on
the Christmas cake before the basic ingredients have been identfied and
put in the mixing bowl;-)Sometimes I think that understanding details in
the Abhidhamma and commentaries is easier than understanding verses in the
suttas. Often what seems the simplest is the most profound.>
I like Sarah's post with additional comments and quotes from other
commentaries. Sarah, I do not have Ven. Bodhi's translations, and if you
have time I appreciate it very much if you can give more details.
I heard on a tape that A. Sujin said to Rob K: in the words clear
comprehension (in Thai ru chad) are included the development of panna going
through all the stages of insight.
Thus, it is a matter of development, not pariyatti, theoretical
understanding, but patipatti, practice, so that finally panna of pativeda
(direct realization) can be reached. When we read suttas we may not
distinguish these three levels of panna. We can get some benefit from
theoretical understanding, but we do not profit to the full if we do not
develop satipatthana, awareness of this very moment.
Nina.
	
18203

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:04am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Patience, o patience

 	
Dear Sarah,
Your reminders are very helpful, and also repeating this once more for me.
Instead of anger, dosa, we can also think of aversion or sadness. But when
we are sad because of what somone else said to us, it seems that we are at
such moments not openminded to these reminders, even though we read them or
type them out. Lack of satipatthana, the conditions are not right.
But later on, conditions change again.
Thank you, with appreciation, Nina.
P.S. I also appreciate very much Beth's quote, because it is "my own"
akusala when I am dismayed or sad, I better be aware of the citta at that
moment:

Let none find fault with others;
let none see the omissions and commissions of others.
But let one see one's own acts, done and undone.
Dhammapada 4:50

This is very deep in meaning, Beth. We can have theoretical understanding of
it, that is, we think about our faults, the story. It does make a difference
if sati sampajanna (sati and panna) can arise right at that moment. It can
realize akusala as akusala. Or, on the level of satipatthana, sati
sampajanna realizes at that moment the characteristic of the dhamma that
appears, without having to think about it. It can be realized as only a
conditioned nama, not self. It depends on conditions what level of
understanding arises. With satipatthana the deepest meaning of what the
Buddha taught can be understood. We learn that the Dhamma is subtle and
deep, difficult to understand. It takes so long to develop satipatthana, but
it is good to realize what we do not understand yet. It is good to know that
by just reading and considering we have not understood the teachings yet.
Reading and considering are conditions for the arising of sati sampajanna.
Nina. 

op 25-12-2002 11:15 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...:


> K.Sujin: “Whoever may have done wrong to us or may have harmed us, his
> deeds have ceased at that moment, and therefore we should not continue to
> be angry”.
> .....
> Commentary: “With whom, then, should you now be angry, and by whom should
> anger be aroused? When all phenomena are non-self, who can do wrong to
> whom?
	
18204

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:04am
Subject: Dhamma Issues, Fruition Attainment 2

 	
Dhamma Issues, Fruition Attainment 2

2: The Visuddhimagga, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing
Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot)
states: ³All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment². This is a conclusion
which refutes an argument of some teachers who had wrong view. They stated
that the sotåpanna (streamwinner) and the sakadågåmí (once-returner) are not
able to enter fruition-attainment, and that only the anågåmí (non-returner)
and the arahat could enter fruition-attainment. They argued that only the
anågåmí and the arahat could reach accomplishment in samådhi
(concentration). However, even the ordinary person (who is not an ariyan)
may reach accomplishment in samådhi, so that he may enter mundane
jhåna-attainment, jhåna-samåpatti (5. Thus, all ariyans, namely, the
sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí, the anågåmí and the arahat can enter
fruition-attainment, provided they are able to attain jhåna.

The Paramatthadípaní, Commentary to the Udåna, Khuddaka Nikåya, in the
Commentary to Ch 1, Enlightenment explains the term vimutti sukha, the
enjoyment of the happiness of freedom of the Buddha after his enlightenment.
(6 

We read in the ³Middle Length Sayings² (I, 44), ³The Lesser Discourse of the
Miscellany² (Cúlavadallasutta) that the nun Dhammadinnå spoke with the
layfollower Visåkha about the abiding in fruition-attainment, explaining
cetovimutti, deliverance of mind (7. Thus, only the ariyan with
jhåna-attainment can enter fruition-attainment.

Footnotes:
5. Evenso, all ariyans who have accumulated the inclination to and the skill
in the development of samatha, can attain jhåna.
6. See the Translation by P. Masefield, p. 58-62, ³But in the present case
it is the Lord¹s liberation in terms of fruition that has nibbåna as its
object that is implied, for which reason ³Experiencing the bliss of
liberation (vimuttisukhapaìisaÿvedí) means: (he) was seated experiencing the
bliss of liberation, the bliss associated with fruition-attainment²...
The Buddha had attained all stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna.
7. Ceto-vimutti refers to a person who has developed insight and samatha to
the degree of jhåna. Dhammadinnå explains about the attainment of cessation
of perception and feeling, which can be reached only by a person with jhåna
attainment.
	
18205

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 5:11am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues,Qu on Fruition-attainment

 	
Wonderful, Nina! You have told me what was needed to answer my question. (I 
suspected I could count on you! ;-)

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 12/26/02 1:07:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... 
writes:

> Dear Howard, see below.
> op 24-12-2002 19:17 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:
> 
> As to: 
> >>The conclusion regarding the issue of analysis: The ariyan who has not
> >>attained jhåna is not able to enter fruition attainment.
> =======================
> >Exactly what is meant by "attained jhana"? Is it not so that path
> >consciousness is attained at least the level of the first jhana? Henepola
> >Gunaratana has written the following...
> Nina: I appreciate it that you studied this issue and gave it considerable
> thought. What you say about calm with lokuttara citta is quite right. This
> is mentioned at the end of the issue, as you will see. It is at the
> conclusion, but I shall now quote it:
> <One may object that when for the ariyan without jhåna attainment the
> magga-citta arises there is a high degree of calm with absorption which can
> be compared to the calm of the first stage of jhåna. One might therefore
> conclude that afterwards he is likely to be able to enter
> fruition-attainment with phala-citta accompanied by factors of the first
> jhåna (pathama jhånika phala). However, we should consider the following: 
> it
> is true that the magga-citta of the ariyan without jhåna-attainment has 
> calm
> with absorption equal to the tranquillity of the first jhåna, but this is
> because nibbåna is the object at that moment. Since he is without jhåna
> attainment and he has lokuttara citta without jhåna factors, samådhi,
> concentration, has not sufficient strength so that the citta with strong
> absorption in the object of nibbåna could arise again after he attained
> enlightenment and became an ariyan.>
> Jhana-factors here means: developed by the practice of samatha.
> As you will see from the parts that follow, many sources are used for this
> issue. It was difficult to translate, because many texts do not exist in
> English. I hope Num and Kom will help when you and others ask questions.
> Half a minute after I had met Num in Bgk, for the first time, waiting for
> the van to go to Kraeng Kacang, we dived into this text and immediately he
> phoned Kh Krisna, his aunt. She takes part in the weekly committee meetings
> where all the texts are prepared and gives an important imput there. She is
> very kind and said she will help again via Num. Just recently another
> booklet came out on the latent tendencies.
> Nina. 
> 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
18206

From: nidive <nidive@y...> <nidive@y...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:20am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi Howard,

> All the foregoing is a mere "pointing at", and not a listing of
> characteristics. Nibbana is asankhata, and an alleged ascription
> of characteristics is not an actual ascription of characteristics.
> What the Buddha is doing there is the best that can be done with
> language with respect to nibbana, a mere pointing. Nibbana is,
> after all, an absence - the absence of the three poisons and of
> dukkha. An absence is a thing with properties only linguistically,
> and not in reality. What color is the unicorn that is not in my
> room?

Then please enlighten me on the characteristics of nibbana.
I take it that anatta is not a characteristic of nibbana then, since 
all alleged descriptions of the characteristic of nibbana are 
not 'actual descriptions'.

NEO Swee Boon
	
18207

From: James <buddhatrue@y...> <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 11:05am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive <nidive@y...>" 
<nidive@y...> wrote:
> 
> Then please enlighten me on the characteristics of nibbana.
> I take it that anatta is not a characteristic of nibbana then, 
since 
> all alleged descriptions of the characteristic of nibbana are 
> not 'actual descriptions'.
> 
> NEO Swee Boon

Hi NEO,

I am not Howard, but if I may jump in. I have little to do today! :-)

Does Nibbana have the characteristic of Anatta? No. Nibbana doesn't 
have any definable characteristics...including non-self. Nibbana is 
indefinable because nibbana is release from all of the clung-to 
aggregates and any definitions come from mental formations 
(thoughts), which is one of the aggregates, so any definition from 
the mind cannot describe something that is foreign to the mind. 
Definable charactersitics come from thoughts, but nibbana is non-
thought; so it cannot be defined or described.

However, since the five aggregates are caused by fermentations, and 
fermentations are defined as something that is agitated, an 
approximate description for Nibbana would be `profound calm'. 

Metta, James
	
18208

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 11:53am
Subject: Significant Event

 	
Hi Sarah and Jon, and fellow dsg-ers, 

Just wanted to draw your attention to a significant event happening 
on 28 December. Dhamma Study Group will have its third birthday. 
Walking, talking, and out of nappies now!

Thank you for the camaraderie, the sharing and teaching, the metta 
and karuna, the humour and patience, the expounding and clarifying, 
and the hair-tearing exasperation some of your posts have caused.:-)

Cheers,
Chris
	
18209

From: James <buddhatrue@y...> <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 0:23pm
Subject: Re: Significant Event

 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth 
<cforsyth@v...>" <cforsyth@v...> wrote:
<snip>
> and the hair-tearing exasperation some of your posts have caused.:-)

Hey!! I think I resemble that remark! ;-) Thank you Christine for 
your insightful posts, thorough research, and being such a sweet 
person. I also want to thank Sarah and Jon for accepting me to this 
group, overlooking my rebel-rousing tendencies, and keeping me on the 
straight-and-narrow. I appreciate all of the main posters to this 
group and the lurkers out there. I am appreciative for the positive 
feedback I have gotten about my posts. Though they may sometimes 
lack the deepest insight, I hope they always show the deepest heart. 
And finally, I want to express my appreciation to `that Nina person' 
for providing a role model of `Dhamma Dedication'. I hope everyone is 
learning as much as I am.

Metta, James
	
18210

From: chase8383 <dcwcc@w...> <dcwcc@w...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 5:53am
Subject: Re: Mara No More

 	
Hi Howard

You said in your post: "The word 'salvific' bothers you, I'm sure, due to your Christian 
background. The word, itself, carries no onus. My background is different, and the word raises no red flags with me. The word merely means having the power to save,"

My question is, is there anything to be saved? If we are at our core Buddha Nature, where is the salvation? If an airbag pops open in my car, preventing me from hitting the dash board during a crash, was there an act of salvation? Or was there just a cause and effect? Did anything really change? 

Be spacious, David
	
18211

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:46am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi, Swee Boon -

In a message dated 12/26/02 1:21:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
nidive@y... writes:

> 
> Then please enlighten me on the characteristics of nibbana.
> I take it that anatta is not a characteristic of nibbana then, since 
> all alleged descriptions of the characteristic of nibbana are 
> not 'actual descriptions'.
> 
==========================
Anatta is not a characteristic of anything. It is the absence of 
something. It is the absence of a core and of a controlling agent. 

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 



18212

From: peterdac4298 <peterdac4298@y...> <peterdac4298@y...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:10pm
Subject: Photo album

 	
Hi All

Finally took the hint. Sorry about the quality, cheep home digi 
cam. Will nip out to the photo machine and get a less grainy analog 
version as soon as every thing is up and running after the bank 
holidays.

Cheers
Peter
	

 	 

	
18213

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:13pm
Subject: Way 30, Synopsis

 	
"The Way of Mindflness" by Soma Thera, Section of the Synopsis p.41
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html

Consciousness and mental objects, too, should be contemplated upon by
way of the diversity of the division of object (arammana], dominance
[adhipati], conascence [sahajata], plane [bhumi], causal action [kamma],
result [vipaka], non-causative functional process [kriya], and so forth
[adi], beginning with impermanence [aniccadinam anupassananam vesena]
and by way of the division of consciousness that is with passion and so
forth come down in the portion of analytical exposition [niddesavare
agatasaragadi bhedañca vasena]. 

[Tika] "Or the divisions of object... non-causative functional process
and so forth." Contemplation should be done by way of the division of
the blue and so forth pertaining to the variety of objects visual and so
forth [rupadi arammana nanattassa niladi tabbhedassa); by way of the
division of the "low" and so forth pertaining to the diverse kinds of
dominance of the will-to-do and so forth [chandadi adhipati nanattassa
hinadi tabbhedassa]; by way of the division of the spontaneous and
non-spontaneous consciousness, absorption with initial application and
so forth pertaining to the variety of conditions of conascence of
knowledge, absorption and so forth [ñana jhanadi nanattassa
sasankharikasankharika savitakkadi tabbhedassa]; by way of the division
of lofty, middling, and so forth pertaining to the diverse planes,
sensuous and so forth [kamavacaradi bhuminanattassa ukkattha majjhimadi
tabbhedassa]; by way of the division of conduciveness to
deva-plane-rebirth and so forth, pertaining to the diverse kind of moral
action of skill and so forth [kusaladi kammananattassa devagati
samvattaniyatadi tabbhedassa]; by way of the division of the state of
requital which could be perceived in this very present condition of life
and so forth, pertaining to the variety of dark and bright resultants of
evil and good deeds (kanha sukka vipaka nanattassa dittha dhamma
vedaniyatadi tabbhedassa]; by way of the division of the three good
conditions of rebirth and so forth, pertaining to non-causative
functional diversity of the sensuous plane and so forth [paritta
bhumakadi kriya nanattassa tihetukadi tabbhedassa]. 

Mental objects should be contemplated upon by way of own characteristic
[sallakkhana] [T: of impression and the like [phusanadi]]; by way of
general characteristic [samañña lakkhana] [T: of impermanence and
the like [aniccatadi]]; by way of phenomenon-emptiness [suññta
dhamma], [T: namely, by way of the void-nature called soullessness
[anattata sankhata suññata sabhavassa] to explain which clearly, the
instruction of the portion dealing with the void in the Abhidhamma
proceeded by means of the statement beginning with "At that time indeed
there are phenomena, there are aggregates [yam vibhavetum abhidhamme
tasmim kho pana samaye dhamma honti khandha hantiti adina
suññatavara desana pavatta]], without any mention of a soul; by way
of the seven contemplations of impermanence and so forth [aniccadi satta
anupassananam]; and by way of the divisions of what is present and what
is absent and so forth, in the analytical portion [niddesavare agata
santasantadi bhedanañca vasena].
	
18214

From: phamdluan2000 <phamdluan@a...> <phamdluan@a...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:19pm
Subject: Re: Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
Dear James,


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James <buddhatrue@y...>" 
<buddhatrue@y...> wrote:


Hi Rhula,

Nice collection of quotes. Good scholarship on your part. I will 
give my two cents worth about anatta since I have been studying it a 
bit also. These scholars are mistaken. They are assuming that the 
aggregates individually are not `the self', so perhaps the aggregates 
together could be considered `the self'. In other words, to use an 
example, they are saying that the Buddha, when talking about a house, 
said, "The door is not the house, the roof is not the house, the 
walls are not the house, the windows are not the house, etc." But 
the house does exist if you put them all together. So individually 
the aggregates are non-self, but maybe together they are self. 

This is not what the Buddha meant. Since each aggregate is non-self, 
even put together they should be non-self. BUUUTTTT….actually, the 
Buddha didn't want us to try to answer the question if we have a self 
or not. He just wanted us to view the aggregates as non-self and to 
not try to figure out if, when put together, they create a self. 
When he was asked this question directly, `Do we have a self', he 
refused to answer. He later explained to Ananda that to say we 
either do or don't have a self is wrong view and makes practice 
impossible. In other words, anatta cannot be figured out 
intellectually because its nature is beyond the scope of either 
existence or non-existence as we know them. Check out this article 
by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, "No Self or Not Self?" 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself2.html 




KKT: Allow me to pop in here.

There are two main meanings of Self.

(1) The metaphysical self and
(2) The empirical self.

The self the Buddha refused to answer
to the question about its existence
is the << metaphysical self >> !

This self in the historical context of 
the Buddha's time refers to the Atman 
of Brahmanism or the Jiva (life principle) 
of Jainism.

It has the same meaning of << soul >>

A metaphysical self is something
substantial, independent, self-existent, 
eternal, changeless, and permanent.

The reason the Buddha refused
to answer, I think, is because
such question is of the domain 
of pure speculation and useless
for the purpose of liberation.


But the self you refer to as
<< individually the aggregates are non-self, 
but maybe together they are self >>
is the << empirical self >> !

This is the << feeling of I, Me, Mine, Myself >>

This is this self that in countless 
suttas the Buddha denounced it
as the source of our ignorance,
the cause of our endless rebirths,
and << the house-builder >> !


I think one must distinguish
clearly those two selfs.


Peace,


KKT
	
18215

From: kenhowardau <kenhowardau@y...> <kenhowardau@y...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 5:13pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman

 	
Hello Sarah,


We still have a house-full of guests left over from Xmas and I'm 
barely finding time to read the daily bulletins. Thanks for
that extra material on vitari, it seems to answer all my
questions and more. I'll report back when I've read it a
few more times.


Kind regards
Ken H
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> wrote:
> Dear Ken H & All,
> 
> I have some more quotes which I hope are useful on the theme of the 
3
> virati cetasikas
	
18216

From: azita gill <gazita2002@y...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 6:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Significant Event

 	
--- "James <buddhatrue@y...>" <
> dear James,
In the past I did not tear my hair out re some
of your posts -- I just did not read them - press the
delete button and you were gone!
However, I have been reading some of your
later posts and really like them - esp. the very
sensitive and caring letters that you have written to
the Star Kids. I have also benefited from them.
I am enjoying Nina's posts on patience -
Khanti - and thought that you have must have patience
to answer the Star Kids' letters.
Seems like we need LOTS of patience to develop
right understanding of this present moment. I have
been listening to tapes that were recorded while we
were in Thailand and K.Sujin constantly reminds us to
stay with this present moment and that clinging takes
us away from this moment, again and again.
I remind ple. to have patience, courage and
good cheer, but I think I am only just beginning to
see the real value in developing patience - the
supreme purification of body, speech and mind.
Thanks James,
Cheers, Azita

	
18217

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 7:26pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 30, Synopsis

 	
Hi all,

It looks to me like this section opens the contemplation of
consciousness and dhammas to include all the fine details and many ways
of classifying them of the abhidhamma. Does anyone know what text this
line refers to and what it means:

"the instruction of the portion dealing with the void in the Abhidhamma
proceeded by means of the statement beginning with "At that time indeed
there are phenomena, there are aggregates [yam vibhavetum abhidhamme
tasmim kho pana samaye dhamma honti khandha hantiti adina
suññatavara desana pavatta]], without any mention of a soul"

thanks, Larry
	
18218

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:36pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
“It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could 
treat anything as self – there is no such possibility.�



(The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg.928, Bahudhatuka 
Sutta, The Many Kinds of Elements.)



TG


	
18219

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 9:45pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
Hi TG & all,

There is an interesting note to the passage you quote, "It is
impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could
treat anything as self -- there is no such possibility."

Previously in this section of the sutta about the impossible and the
possible the Buddha says a bhikkhu skilled in the impossible and the
possible would say it is impossible that a person possessing right view
could treat any *formation* as permanent or pleasurable. Here follows B.
Bodhi's note:

In the passage on self, sankhara, "formation," is replaced by dhamma,
"thing." MA explains that this substitution is made to include concepts,
such as kasina sign, etc., which the ordinary person is also prone to
identify as self. However, in view of the fact that Nibbana is described
as imperishable (accuta) and as bliss (sukha), and is also liable to be
misconceived as self (see MN 1.26), the word "sankhara" may be taken to
include only the conditioned, while "dhamma" includes both the
conditioned and the unconditioned. This interpretation, however, is not
endorsed by the commentaries of Acariya Buddhagosa. <end quote> 

L: The note on MN 1.26 concerning how Nibbana is wrongly conceived as
self is as follows:

MA understands "Nibbana" here to refer to the five kinds of "supreme
Nibbana here and now" included among the sixty-two wrong views of the
Brahamajalla Sutta (DN 1.3.19-25/i.36-38), that is, Nibbana identified
with the full enjoyment of sense pleasures or with the four jhanas.
Enjoying this state, or yearning for it, he conceives it with craving.
Priding himself on attaining it, he conceives it with conceit. Holding
this imaginary Nibbana to be permanent, etc., he conceives it with
views. <end quote>

L: I notice that in both notes, MA, the commentary to the Majjima
Nikaya, avoids saying Nibbana is not self.

Larry
	
18220

From: <Bodhi2500@a...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 5:27pm
Subject: Space element

 	
Hi

Abhidhammattha Sangaha Ch VIII, section 4, on pannattis:
vii) concept of space (akasa), such as a well or a cave. It is 
derived from space which is not contacted by the four Great Elements. 

From the Bahudhatuka Sutta M.>

There are Ananda these 6 elements:The earth,water,fire,air,space and 
consciousness element.


Could someone please explain what this space element is, is it a Paramattha 
Dhamma or Pannatti/the concept of space as above ?

Thanks 
Steve.


	
18221

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:35pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member

 	
Hi Ted (Tep), Beth, Dot and Ram,

I'm also very glad to see you all here and appreciate the introductions
you've kindly shared.

Please be patient with old threads and just ignore those which are too
confusing or feel free to ask for any clarifications. Best of all, just
start your own - we always welcome new topics.

Some particular topics in Useful Posts such as "New to the List', "New to
Abhidhamma' and "Pali' may be helpful:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts

Also the simple Pali glossary if you're not familiar with many of the
terms (I'm sure Ram is):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms

Also the search function on the back-up archives can be helpful:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/
**********
Beth, I'm also appreciating the helpful Dhp verses and your honest and
sincere comments. Where do you live?

Ram, as Chris said, there are a few others from Sri Lanka here and some of
us have also spent quite a lot of time in your beautiful country.
Actually, Jon and I met there and we also joined Chris and the others on
the trip in June.

Dot, I'm sure you'll feel very at home with the other Queenslanders here -
quite a vocal mob on your doorstep and a treat to meet......(dreaming of
Noosa....;-))

Ted, as Kom said, there are several Thais and American Thais around
here...sometimes they even break out into Thai-Pali, so that should make
life easier for you;-) I'm impressed that your friend's search found us
and look f/w to hearing more about your ideas on vipassana and meditation.
(Hope we hear again from Chuck, also from Texas and last spotted in
Bangkok too..)

Ram, I also share your appreciation for the Tipitaka and think we're
really fortunate to have access to it and be able to study, share and
discuss together.

Look forward to reading any further comments, questions or answers that
any of you care to contribute.

Sarah
========



--- "Tep Sastri <tepsastri@y...>" <tepsastri@y...> wrote: >
Hello everyone!
> 
> I just recently joined DhammastudyGroup and would like to introduce 
> myself a little bit. 


	
18222

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 11:02pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Significant Event

 	
Hi Christine, James & All,

--- "christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...>" <cforsyth@v...>
wrote: > Hi Sarah and Jon, and fellow dsg-ers, 
> 
> Just wanted to draw your attention to a significant event happening 
> on 28 December. Dhamma Study Group will have its third birthday. 
> Walking, talking, and out of nappies now!
.....
I'm not very good on baby stages - does that mean we're past the
'teething' one??? Thanks a lot for drawing our attention to this milestone
event. Perhaps we'll have a little celebration....
.....
> Thank you for the camaraderie, the sharing and teaching, the metta 
> and karuna, the humour and patience, the expounding and clarifying, 
> and the hair-tearing exasperation some of your posts have caused.:-)
.....
;-) As you always remind us,'good friends' make the holy life and any
group or list is only as good as the participants.....Many thanks to all
for all the support and wonderful contributions -- including those that
need a few prods on the 'straight and narrow';-)I've really benefited and
learnt a lot from the good reminders, the references, the keen questioning
and challenging, the debates, the friendships, the worldly conditions and
more.

For any (many) shortcomings in style or content on list or behind the
scenes on our part, apologies and we'll try to improve....

As for the 'hair-tearing exasperation', just be glad it doesn't all show
on screen yet;-)

Thanks again for the kind words,

Sarah
=======



	
18223

From: rahula_80 <rahula_80@y...> <rahula_80@y...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 11:41pm
Subject: Origins of Buddhism

 	
Hi,

Can anyone recommend books on the origins of Buddhism or early 
Buddhism other than Gombrich's "How Buddhism Began"

Also, I would appreciate comments on the following books.

1. Studies in the Origins of Buddhism by Govind Chandra Pande

2. Early Buddhism and its Origins by Vishwanath Prasad Varma

3. Buddhist and Vedic Studies Oliver Hector de Alwis Wijesekara

4. Early Buddhism by T.W. Rhys Davids

5. Sakya or Buddhist Origins by Caroline A.F. Rhys Davids 

6. The Vedantic Buddhism of Buddha by J.G. Jennings

7. Hinduism and Buddhism Ananda Kettish Coomaraswamy 

Rahula
	
18224

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 11:48pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Photo album

 	
Peter,

--- "peterdac4298 <peterdac4298@y...>" <peterdac4298@y...>
wrote: > Hi All
> 
> Finally took the hint. Sorry about the quality, cheep home digi 
> cam. Will nip out to the photo machine and get a less grainy analog 
> version as soon as every thing is up and running after the bank 
> holidays.
.....
Good to see you in the 'Hall of Fame. The quality of yr neighbours' pic
(Joanne and Janice)is just as poor....they may be begging for an upgrade
too;-)No one minds and at least you managed to avoid the stray arm phantom
that slipped into Larry's;-)Perhaps James can remove the grain without
leaving home.....

So to any other newbies or oldies, pls don't let grainy analog, stray arms
or pouting expressions deter you from joining us (left side of home page
under photos):
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup

And now, Peter, you can relax and help Chris & James drop hints to
others;-)

Sarah (retiring and handing over her album team place to James with his
P.R. and scanning skills - <James, do you remove grey hairs too???>) 
=======



	
18225

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 0:57am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Patience, o patience

 	
Hi Nina,(James and Christine)

Thankyou for the extra reminders.

--- nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote: 
> But when we are sad because of what somone else said to us, it seems 
that we are at such moments not openminded to these reminders, even though
we read them or type them out. Lack of satipatthana, the conditions are
>not right.
.....
Just as you say: we can write about patience, but when there aren’t the
right conditions it doesn’t arise. We can also see at such times how much
clinging there is to self - finding oneself important, raising the banner
without any metta or consideration for the other or detachment from the
sounds and visible objects being experienced at those times.
.....
> But later on, conditions change again.
> Thank you, with appreciation, Nina.
> P.S. I also appreciate very much Beth's quote, because it is "my own"
> akusala when I am dismayed or sad, I better be aware of the citta at
> that
> moment:
> 
> Let none find fault with others;
> let none see the omissions and commissions of others.
> But let one see one's own acts, done and undone.
> Dhammapada 4:50
....
As you say, while we are concerned with the others’ deeds, we forget about
‘our’ akusala cittas (unwholesome consciusness) at such times.

James asked some time back about ‘whether generating metta toward oneself
be the same as generating metta toward another’ as there’s no self. He
also asked about being selfish. 

I think that whenever we find ourselves important or are concerned about
our own thoughts, feelings or consciousness, the selfishness and
attachment to self is evident. At these times we are so swayed and
influenced by the 8 worldly conditions. When there is metta and kindness
to others, on the otherhand, there is no concern for praise, gain and so
on. There isn’t any expectation or anxiety about others’ responses to us. 

It’s not a matter of ‘working’ on metta, so much as understanding the
difference between when there are moments of kindness, friendliness and
consideration (without attachment or aversion) and when there aren’t.
Howard gave some helpful reminders on patience, forgiveness and metta in
post 17378. He wrote: “Also, I think the perfection of khanti
(patience/forbearance) is close in meaning and effect to forgiveness.”
There can be just a little more giving up of the clinging to self every
day....dana, forgiveness and patience never hurt...slowly, slowly. 

Because, in reality there is no self, doesn’t mean that with more
understanding ‘one’ doesn’t think of oneself and others. There can be
thinking with right view, wrong view,ignorance or any other state. Metta
remains a wholesome quality and selfishness an unwholesome one. I liked
the reminders James quoted for the benefits of developed metta:

“One sleeps easily, wakes easily, dreams no evil dreams. One is dear to
human beings, dear to non-human beings. The devas protect one. Neither
fire, poison, nor weapons can touch one. One’s mind gains concentration
quickly. One’s complexion is bright. One dies unconfused and --if
penetrating no higher -- is headed for the Brahma worlds”. 

I think like James wrote to one of the Star Kids, we can begin to see the
heaven and hell we create for ourselves all the time and can begin to know
the difference between the light and ‘pure’ states and compared to the
heavy and ‘impure’ ones.
.....
Christine was also discussing more about the characteristic of metta. In
her book ‘Metta’(transl by Nina), Khun Sujin says:

“No matter whether we meet people in a room, or outside, on the street or
in the bus, do we consider everybody we meet as a friend? If that is not
so we should not recite the words about extending metta to all beings,
that will not be of any use. If we see someone now, at this moment, and
we feel misgivings about him, we should not try to extend metta to all
beings. Only those who have attained jhana are able to do this. When the
meditation subject of metta brahma-vihara has been developed metta can
become boundless. However, we should begin with simply applying sincere
metta in daily life.”

Later, she also says:
“Metta conditions generosity in giving and it conditions kind, agreeable
speech. It makes one abstain from rude, disgracious conduct,from doing
wrong to others. We can help people with kindness and we can consider them
as fellow-beings who are friends. We can learn not to think of them with
conceit,as strangers who are different. We will learn not to think of them
in terms of “he” and “me”, or to consider them as superior or as inferior
in comparison with ourselves, because that is conceit. When we
investigate the characteristic of our citta we will know from our own
experience that kusala citta is completely different from akusala citta.

The Dhammasangani (the 1st book of the Abhidhamma, 1340) refers to
wholesome qualities such as plasticity, gentlenes, smoothness, pliancy,
and humbleness of heart. The commentary to this passage
(Atthasalini11,Bk111,395)describes humbleness of heart as follows:

“by the absence of conceit this person’s heart is humble; the state of
such a person is humbleness of heart.”

Softness, gentleness, pliancy and humbleness of heart, these qualities are
characteristics of metta.”<end quote>
*******

Sarah
======


	
18226

From: Sarah <sarahdhhk@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 1:41am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
Hi Rahula,

--- "rahula_80 <rahula_80@y...>" 

> 1. TW Rhys Davids went "mad" while working on the PTS Pali English 
> Dictionary which Stede had to finish for him because of his "mental 
> breakdown".
.....
I have no idea whether this or the other comments you gave are correct or
not. What I would say, though, is that I think we are all really indebted
to the devotion and dedication of these early translators and compilers
and founders of the PTS. For many of us, the PTS translations and
dictionaries were for many decades the only ones available. These were our
only access to the written dhamma.

Miss Horner (a very kind and helpful lady imho), in her introduction to
the translation of the Vinaya series, reminds us how when Rhys Davids and
Oldenberg wrote their partial translation, the PTS had not been founded,
the other Pali translations had not been published and nor had this
dictionary.

In his introduction to the dictionary,written in 1921, TW Rhys Davids
acknowledges the immense support of Stede:

“Anybody familiar with this sort of work will know what care and patience,
what scholarly knowledge and judgment are involved in the collection of
such material, in the sorting, the sifting and final arrangement of it, in
the adding of cross references, in the consideration of etymological
puzzles, in the comparison and correcion of various or faulty readings,
and in the verification of references given by others, or found in the
indexes. For all this work the users of the Dictionary will have to thank
my colleague, Dr William Stede. It may be interesting to notice here that
the total number of refernces to appear in this first edition of the new
dictionary is estimated to be between one hundered and fifty and one
hundred and sixty thousand. The Bavarian Academy has awarded to Dr Stede a
personal grant of 3100 marks for his work on this Dictionary.”<end quote>
*****
These works were done by those living on very limited funds, no computers
or even electric typewriters, very limited communication with other
research expertise and so on.

Rahula, with your other question about texts on early Buddhism, I can only
refer you to the ancient texts themselves and their commentaries, which
you would have no difficulty following. These would include:

- Book of the Discipline (Vinaya) and Bahiranidana (introduction to the
commentary)- all PTS
- Mahavamsa -Ancient chronicles of Sri Lanka PTS
- Atthasalini (Expositor) comm. to Dhammasangani, PTS
*****
I also like Malalaskera’s “Pali Literature of Ceylon” a helpful history
and Nina has “The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa” by Law. I’m not sure where
you can get these - actually I want to get the one on Buddhaghosa if
anyone sees it and can help.
*****
Nina, Rob K or others may give further suggestions. I usually just read
the texts themselves or books that stay very close to the texts.

Sarah
=======


	
18227

From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) <dbd@s...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 1:55am
Subject: RE: [dsg] Significant Event

 	
Dear Sarah, Jon, Christine & the Group,
Congrats & thanks for opportunities offered!
It is Great to be in the shade of those with prag~na;
Yet struggling to find direction,
Sumane
	
18228

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 2:03am
Subject: Re: Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
Hi Rahula, James, KKT, TG, Larry, and All,

A few quotes on self and Self - (Buddha-nature, Dharma-body, rigpa 
and Nibbana get a mention as well).

Bhikkhu Bodhi: "The Mulapariyaya Sutta, the first entry of the 
Majjhima Nikaya, ... sets itself the aim of exposing the whole mass 
of subjective misconceptions from their branches down to their 
roots. ... As both its title and position imply, the Mulapariyaya 
Sutta is the most fundamental of the Buddha's discourses found in the 
Pali Canon. It is the concentrated essence of the teaching, packing 
into its enigmatic statements profound truths of ontological, 
epistemological, and psychological significance." (The Discourse on 
the Root of Existence - the Mulapariyaya Sutta and its Commentaries)

Thanissaro Bhikkhu says in his Translators Note to the Mulapariyaya 
sutta: "there has long been -- and still is -- a common tendency to 
create a "Buddhist" metaphysics in which the experience of emptiness, 
the Unconditioned, the Dharma-body, Buddha-nature, rigpa, etc., is 
said to function as the ground of being from which the "All" -- the 
entirety of our sensory & mental experience -- is said to spring and 
to which we return when we meditate. Some people think that these 
theories are the inventions of scholars without any direct meditative 
experience, but actually they have most often originated among 
meditators, who label (or in the words of the discourse, "perceive") 
a particular meditative experience as the ultimate goal, identify 
with it in a subtle way (as when we are told that "we are the 
knowing"), and then view that level of experience as the ground of 
being out of which all other experience comes. "

The MN 1 Mulapariyaya Sutta 'The Root Sequence'ends with the unusual 
sentence - "That is what the Blessed One said. Displeased, the monks 
did not delight in the Blessed One's words." 
"Any teaching that follows these lines would be subject to the same 
criticism that the Buddha directed against the monks who first heard 
this discourse." 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html

-----------------------------------------------

A quote from "No Inner Core - Anatta" by U Silananda 

"They claim that Buddha was only directing us not to see the real 
Self in the personal ego - a view identical to the Hindu view. They 
reason that Buddha's denial of certain things being atta indicates 
that He affirmed a true atta of a different nature. When Buddha 
said, "This is not atta," these scholars insert the following 
argument: "But a moment's consideration of the logic of the words 
will show that they assume the reality of a Self that is not any one 
or all of the `things' that are denied of it." 

But let us say, for the sake of argument, that I have five animal 
horns here. If I say "None of these horns is the horn of a rabbit," 
does it mean that there exists somewhere else or in another form such 
a thing as a horn of a rabbit? 

No. A horn of a rabbit is just a designation, an abstraction, without 
any corresponding reality. Similarly Buddha often said, "This is not 
atta. That is not atta. Nothing here is atta." Does that indicate 
that Buddha means that there exists somewhere something that can be 
called atta? No. 

I will conclude this section by explaining a very important statement 
found in Patisambhidamagga and in Majjhima Nikaya: "Sabbe sankhara 
anicca; sabbe sankhara dukkha (not in M.N.); sabbe dhamma anatta." 
The first sentence means, "AII conditioned things are impermanent." 
The second means, `All conditioned things are suffering." 

The third sentence, however is different. Here, Buddha does not use 
the word sankhara, but He uses dhamma instead. Dhamma here means all 
things without exception. So the third sentence means, `AII things, 
conditioned or unconditioned, are anatta, are void of self and soul." 
This means that even Nibbana, which is asankhara, unconditioned, is 
not atta or is void of atta. This statement unequivocally denies atta 
of any kind, even in ultimate Truth and Enlightenment, even in 
Nibbana. "

http://www.buddha.per.sg/dharma01/anatta6.htm

metta,

Christine


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80 <rahula_80@y...>" 
<rahula_80@y...> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Many scholars (eg. Pande, Nakamura etc.) have claim
> that the Buddha never denied the existence of Self except that the 5
> aggregates is NOT Self or should be identified as Self.
> 
> Are they in error?
	
18229

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 2:07am
Subject: Re: Photo album

 	
Hi Peter,

Great to see who I'm talking to at last! Victor, Paul and James 
are in the rows behind and the four of you should be able to keep all 
those kids there under control, if not - see Mrs. Abbott :-)

metta,
Christine

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "peterdac4298 
<peterdac4298@y...>" <peterdac4298@y...> wrote:
> Hi All
> 
> Finally took the hint. Sorry about the quality, cheep home digi 
> cam. Will nip out to the photo machine and get a less grainy 
analog 
> version as soon as every thing is up and running after the bank 
> holidays.
> 
> Cheers
> Peter
	
18230

From: Beth <An_Morrigna@B...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 3:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member

 	
*********snipped*****************
Sarah wrote:
Beth, I'm also appreciating the helpful Dhp verses and your honest and
sincere comments. Where do you live?

Hello all, Hello Sarah,
Thank you for the warm welcome :-)
I'm thankful for this list already, even though some of the
subject matter is a tad heady for me at the moment. I realize when one
begins something there's usually a learning curve :-) I will take advantage
of the resources on this list.
I live in Pennsylvania USA, very close to Philadelphia. I have
as of yet to go to any of the Buddhist centers in the city as of yet.

~peace,
Beth
	
18231

From: Jonothan Abbott <jonoabb@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 3:36am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Howard

--- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon -
...
<< I do think, however, that the following is somewhat
overstated: "Once the highest level of jhana has been attained, there
is no further development possible on that 'track'. Nor is there any
crossover from jhana to insight." 
There is cross-over, but more is required to achieve it - it is not
an automatic development from the jhanas. Using the jhanas as a
foundation for vipassana bhavana, as a basis, stepping-off point,
support, and cross-over point is the most classical approach,
expressed again and again, most especially in the Majhima Nikaya.>>

What the texts talk about, to my recollection, is enlightenment with
jhana as base, not jhana as a basis for insight. The difference is
significant. 

When jhana forms the base for enlightenment, it does so by being the
object of the moments of insight that lead to enlightenment. This of
course cannot occur unless insight has already been developed to the
point that enlightenment is imminent. To my knowledge, jhana is not
given as a basis for the development of insight in the sense of
facilitating, or being a stepping-off point, for that development.

Liberation that is attained 'both ways' is a higher attainment that
liberation by insight only. To my understanding, the persons who
attain in this manner are relatively few, so I would not see it as
the classic approach. I would be interested to know what suttas you
have in mind here.

<<But, for sure, if the jhanas are attained but nothing more is done
- specifically no investigation of reality, no intensified
application of mindfulness and clear comprehension to arising and
ceasing conditions, then no liberation follows; that is not even
remotely in dispute by me.>>

Enlightenment however attained can only be the outcome of the proper
investigation of reality (i.e., insight), and enlightenment both ways
occurs in certain cases where jhana has been developed as well as
that insight (but not by any means in all such cases). 

To my understanding, it is not a case of 'jhana first, then the
investigation of reality'. There is reality at every present moment
for all of us, and there is therefore the potential for some level of
awareness of reality, if the appropriate conditions have been
developed.

Jon


	
18232

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 11:09pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member

 	
Hi, Beth -

In a message dated 12/27/02 6:33:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
An_Morrigna@B... writes:

> Hello all, Hello Sarah,
> Thank you for the warm welcome :-)
> I'm thankful for this list already, even though some of the
> subject matter is a tad heady for me at the moment. I realize when one
> begins something there's usually a learning curve :-) I will take advantage
> of the resources on this list.
> I live in Pennsylvania USA, very close to Philadelphia. I have
> as of yet to go to any of the Buddhist centers in the city as of yet.
> 
> ~peace,
> Beth
> 
> 
=========================
Welcome to the list from another member and an ex-Philadelphian! I was 
born in Philly *many* years ago, West Philly to be exact, and I remained 
there until my early 30's. My wife and lived there while I was going for my 
Ph.D. at the U. of P and teaching math at Temple University. We lived near 
City Line Avenue near the park at that time.
Are there any Theravadin groups, centers, wats, or other Theravadin 
organizations in the area now? All I ever seem to see on lists are 
non-Theravadin, Buddhist organizations in the Philly area.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
18233

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Thu Dec 26, 2002 11:31pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 12/27/02 6:37:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jonoabb@y... writes:

> 
> Howard
> 
> --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon -
> ...
> << I do think, however, that the following is somewhat
> overstated: "Once the highest level of jhana has been attained, there
> is no further development possible on that 'track'. Nor is there any
> crossover from jhana to insight." 
> There is cross-over, but more is required to achieve it - it is not
> an automatic development from the jhanas. Using the jhanas as a
> foundation for vipassana bhavana, as a basis, stepping-off point,
> support, and cross-over point is the most classical approach,
> expressed again and again, most especially in the Majhima Nikaya.>>
> 
> What the texts talk about, to my recollection, is enlightenment with
> jhana as base, not jhana as a basis for insight. The difference is
> significant. 
> 
> When jhana forms the base for enlightenment, it does so by being the
> object of the moments of insight that lead to enlightenment. This of
> course cannot occur unless insight has already been developed to the
> point that enlightenment is imminent. To my knowledge, jhana is not
> given as a basis for the development of insight in the sense of
> facilitating, or being a stepping-off point, for that development.

-----------------------------------------------------
Howard:
I understand your point. However, attaining the jhanas includes the 
the arousing of a number of enlightenment factors, which puts one already a 
step up on the way. By attaining jhanas, and then embarking on vipassana 
bhavana, one is starting the climb having already ascended some steps. Then, 
classically, as in the Anupada Sutta, and as you point out, the jhanas, their 
features, and especially the entering and leaving of jhanas, can serve as 
objects of investigation.
--------------------------------------------------------

> 
> Liberation that is attained 'both ways' is a higher attainment that
> liberation by insight only.
> 
----------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Liberation attained both ways, as I understand it, must involve the 
formless absorptions. That, however, is not the standard, classic formula, 
which involves achieving enlightenment from the base of the 4th jhana.
----------------------------------------------------------
To my understanding, the persons who> 
> attain in this manner are relatively few, so I would not see it as
> the classic approach.
----------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
With regard to the role of the formless absorptions, I agree. But the 
formula involving the 4th jhana is, by far, the most repeated one, especially 
in the Majhima Nikaya.
----------------------------------------------------------
I would be interested to know what suttas you> 
> have in mind here.
> 
----------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Loads of suttas in the M. Nikaya. They involve entering the 4th jhana, 
and then turning the mind to a variety of dhammas, to past lives, to the 
births and deaths of beings, and finally to the destruction of the taints. 
------------------------------------------------------------

> <<But, for sure, if the jhanas are attained but nothing more is done
> - specifically no investigation of reality, no intensified
> application of mindfulness and clear comprehension to arising and
> ceasing conditions, then no liberation follows; that is not even
> remotely in dispute by me.>>
> 
> Enlightenment however attained can only be the outcome of the proper
> investigation of reality (i.e., insight), and enlightenment both ways
> occurs in certain cases where jhana has been developed as well as
> that insight (but not by any means in all such cases). 
> 
---------------------------------------------------
Howard:
I'm not making a universal claim here, Jon.
--------------------------------------------------

> 
> To my understanding, it is not a case of 'jhana first, then the
> investigation of reality'. There is reality at every present moment
> for all of us, and there is therefore the potential for some level of
> awareness of reality, if the appropriate conditions have been
> developed.
> 
---------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Jhana-first is *one* way, the most standard one, but far from the only 
one. There is insight-first, there is tandem development, etc.
--------------------------------------------------- 

> 
> Jon
> 
> 
=========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
18234

From: nidive <nidive@y...> <nidive@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:14am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Dear James,

> Nibbana is indefinable because nibbana is release from all of
> the clung-to aggregates and any definitions come from mental
> formations (thoughts), which is one of the aggregates, so any
> definition from the mind cannot describe something that is
> foreign to the mind.

I don't agree that nibbana is undefinable. If it were undefinable, I 
am sure the Buddha would have said that it is undefinable. But he 
didn't. Instead he gave us various descriptions of it through 
various suttas from the Tipitaka. And he never mentioned that 
nibbana is undefinable (not any sutta I know of). I am pretty sure 
the idea of nibbana as undefinable originates from the Mahayana 
school of teaching.

I don't agree that nibbana is foreign to the mind of an ariyan. 
Nibbana is known by any ariyan. How is nibbana known? It is by means 
of the impermanent mind that nibbana is known. And it was through 
that that the Buddha was able to give us a description of nibbana. 
If nibbana was not known by the impermanent mind of the Buddha, we 
are all discussing about nibbana in vain.

Supposing there is a kind of animal that no man had ever seen. How 
are we going to 'define' such an unknown animal? Something which is 
not known by the mind cannot be 'defined'. Similarly, a non-ariyan 
cannot 'define' nibbana simply because his mind does not know 
nibbana. But an ariyan can 'define' nibbana simply because his mind 
does know nibbana.

> Definable charactersitics come from thoughts, but nibbana is
> non-thought; so it cannot be defined or described.

But I am sure that the following sutta quote comes from the thoughts 
of the Buddha:

"This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all 
fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of 
craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana." 
-- AN III.32

I am sure that the Buddha does know nibbana. I am sure that the 
Buddha is Fully Self-Enlightened.

I am sure that if nibbana is undefinable, the Buddha would have said 
so. It is too important a subject for him to keep silent.


Regards,
NEO Swee Boon
	
18235

From: nidive <nidive@y...> <nidive@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:30am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi Howard,

> Anatta is not a characteristic of anything. It is the absence of 
> something. It is the absence of a core and of a controlling agent. 

What exactly do you mean by 'characteristic'?

For I perceive the 'absence of a core and of a controlling agent' as 
a characteristic in itself. It is a negative characteristic as 
opposed to a positive characteristic, ie. 'presence of a core and of 
a controlling agent'.

For example,

"This person has long hair". Long hair is a characteristic of this 
person. It is a positive characteristic.

"That person has no long hair". No long hair is a characteristic of 
that person. It is a negative characteristic.


NEO Swee Boon
	
18236

From: James <buddhatrue@y...> <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:33am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Photo album

 	
Sarah,

I tried to remove the grain in Peter's picture. I was successful to 
some extent. I think it looks much better and gives a good idea of 
Peter's visage (I can just hear him saying `Cheers!') As requested, 
I also removed your gray hair. Additionally, I took the opportunity 
to give you a more forceful appearance. I don't think anyone will 
mess with you after they see this photo!! ;-) I also, for the 
holiday season, fixed up a picture of Howard. It captures his Jolly 
Spirit!! 

The pics can be viewed at this link:
http://www.geocities.com/buddhatrue/dsg.htm

Metta, James
Ps. I have my niece visiting (7 years old) from out of town and she 
is very high maintenance…and views her uncle as a private 
entertainer! I will respond to the other posts written to me later 
when I have time.
	
18237

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 3:39am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi, Swee Boon -

I agree that defining what is meant by 'characteristic' is not easy. 
Generally I am suspicious of so-called "negative characteristics". There are 
too many of them. 

With metta,
Howard

In a message dated 12/27/02 11:31:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
nidive@y... writes:

> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> >Anatta is not a characteristic of anything. It is the absence of 
> >something. It is the absence of a core and of a controlling agent. 
> 
> What exactly do you mean by 'characteristic'?
> 
> For I perceive the 'absence of a core and of a controlling agent' as 
> a characteristic in itself. It is a negative characteristic as 
> opposed to a positive characteristic, ie. 'presence of a core and of 
> a controlling agent'.
> 
> For example,
> 
> "This person has long hair". Long hair is a characteristic of this 
> person. It is a positive characteristic.
> 
> "That person has no long hair". No long hair is a characteristic of 
> that person. It is a negative characteristic.
> 
> 
> NEO Swee Boon
> 
> 


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
18238

From: nidive <nidive@y...> <nidive@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:43am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi Howard,

> I agree that defining what is meant by 'characteristic' is not
> easy. Generally I am suspicious of so-called "negative
> characteristics". There are too many of them. 

There are just as many 'positive characteristics' as there 
are 'negative characteristics'.

I think it is pretty pointless to go on discussing about this 
subject until there is a clear definition of what is meant 
by 'characteristic'.

Regards,
NEO Swee Boon
	
18239

From: <upasaka@a...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 4:52am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi, Swee Boon -

In a message dated 12/27/02 11:44:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
nidive@y... writes:

> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> >I agree that defining what is meant by 'characteristic' is not
> >easy. Generally I am suspicious of so-called "negative
> >characteristics". There are too many of them. 
> 
> There are just as many 'positive characteristics' as there 
> are 'negative characteristics'.
> 
------------------------------------------------
Howard:
Is any polygon simultaneously a triangle and a square? No. Is there 
such a characteristic, then, if nothing has it or can have it? I think not. 
But every polygon lacks being simultaneously triangular and square. Does that 
mean that there *is* the characteristic of not being simultaneously 
triangular and square? This is one problem I have with "negative 
characteristics". Any property concept we can dream up which applies to 
nothing at all yields a universal negative characteristic.
To me, in general, to say that something is missing is not to ascribe 
a characteristic, but to deny one. I do not see a balance in this matter. But 
perhaps this is just a matter of taste. Whatever we may or may not work out 
on this, there is still dukkha and the need to remove it. So perhaps we 
should turn our efforts more towards that and a bit away from questions of 
how many characterictics can dance on the head of a pin! ;-))
------------------------------------------------------

> 
> I think it is pretty pointless to go on discussing about this 
> subject until there is a clear definition of what is meant 
> by 'characteristic'.
> 
--------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
I agree.
---------------------------------------------------------

> 
> Regards,
> NEO Swee Boon
> 
> 
============================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 




	
18240

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 10:03am
Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no. 7

 	
Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no. 7

We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² (Miscellaneous
Sayings)²

Again, only the man of wisdom can patiently tolerate the wrongs of others,
not the dull-witted man. In the man lacking wisdom, the wrongs of others
only provoke impatience; but for the wise, they call his patience into play
and make it grow even stronger.

How shall we live from now on? If we have right understanding, we can
patiently tolerate the wrongs of someone else, but if we lack understanding,
impatience will increase. We read further on:

Only the man of wisdom is skilful in providing for the welfare of all
beings, without discriminating between dear people, neutrals, and enemies.

All the teachings are beneficial. We can see that the Buddha helped his
followers in explaining the Dhamma and exhorting them time and again to
consider the benefit of kusala dhammas. For example, when he said, ³Only the
man of wisdom is skilful in providing for the welfare of all beings, without
discriminating between dear people, neutrals, and enemies.² We should not be
on the side of our own group of friends, we should be impartial and skilful
in providing for the welfare of all beings.
When someone is really skilful, he has patience so that he is intent on what
is beneficial. When he is impatient he will not acquire any benefit and this
is to the disadvantage of himself.
We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct², no. 1, the Conduct of
Akitti:

Síla has been called ³tapa², ascetism or austerity, because it burns (3 the
impurity arising from akusala. Because of the splendour and power of the
perfection of patience and the perfection of viriya, also these perfections
have been called tapa, ascetism: they burn the impurity of craving and
laziness. The Bodhisatta developed those perfections to the highest degree
when he was in this life. It should be said that he developed them by the
power of the perfection of patience (khanti påramittånubhåvena), because the
restraint by patience leads to what is supreme. The Exalted One said:
³patience is the highest ascetism² (khanti paramam tapo).

The first words of the ³Exhortation to the Påtimokkha² are, ³Patience is the
hishest ascetism². If patience and endurance are lacking, the perfections
cannot lead to the realization of the four noble Truths. We should think of
the patience of people at the time when the Buddha had not yet finally
passed away. When we read the suttas and reflect on them in detail we can
see the patience and endurance of people at that time who applied the Dhamma
in their conduct and practice.

footnote:
3. Tappati is the passive form of tapati. Tappati means to burn, to shine.
	
18241

From: nidive <nidive@y...> <nidive@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 10:11am
Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi Howard,

> Does that mean that there *is* the characteristic of not being
> simultaneously triangular and square?

To me, there indeed is the characteristic of not being 
simultaneously triangular and square.

> This is one problem I have with "negative characteristics". Any
> property concept we can dream up which applies to nothing at all
> yields a universal negative characteristic.

To me, any negative characteristic will always yield a corresponding 
positive characteristic just as any positive characteristic will 
always yield a corresponding negative characteristic.

I liken it to the nature of conditioned dhammas. Where there is 
this, there is that. Where there is not this, there is not that.


> Whatever we may or may not work out on this, there is still dukkha
> and the need to remove it. So perhaps we should turn our efforts
> more towards that and a bit away from questions of how many
> characterictics can dance on the head of a pin! ;-))

Agree.


Regards,
NEO Swee Boon
	
 	
 	
18242

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 2:41pm
Subject: Re: Space element

 	
Hi Steve,

Nyanatiloka's definition is:

"ákása: 'space', is, according to Com., of two kinds: 1. limited 
space (paricchinnákása or paricchedákása), 2. endless space 
(anantákása), i.e. cosmic space.

1. Limited space, under the name of ákása-dhátu (space element), 
belongs to derived corporeality (s. khandha, Summary I; Dhs 638) and 
to a sixfold classification of elements (s. dhátu; M 112, 115, 140). 
It is also an object of kasina (q.v.) meditation. It is defined as 
follows: "The space element has the characteristic of delimiting 
matter. Its function is to indicate the boundaries of matter. It is 
manifested as the confines of matter; or its manifestation consists 
in being untouched (by the 4 great elements), and in holes and 
apertures. Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. It is on 
account of the space element that one can say of material things 
delimited that 'this is above. below, around that' " (Vis.M. XIV, 63).

2. Endless space is called in Atthasálini ajatákása, 'unentangled', 
i.e. unobstructed or empty space. It is the object of the first 
immaterial absorption (s. jhána), the sphere of boundless space 
(ákásánañcáyatana). According to Abhidhamma philosophy, endless space 
has no objective reality (being purely conceptual), which is 
indicated by the fact that it is not included in the triad of the 
wholesome (kusalatika), which comprises the entire reality. Later 
Buddhist schools have regarded it as one of several unconditioned or 
uncreated states (asankhata dharma) - a view that is rejected in 
Kath. (s. Guide. p. 70). Theraváda Buddhism recognizes only Nibbána 
as an unconditioned element (asankhata-dhátu: s. Dhs. 1084)."

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm

metta,
Christine

--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bodhi2500@a... wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Abhidhammattha Sangaha Ch VIII, section 4, on pannattis:
> vii) concept of space (akasa), such as a well or a cave. It is 
> derived from space which is not contacted by the four Great 
Elements. 
> 
> From the Bahudhatuka Sutta M.>
> 
> There are Ananda these 6 elements:The earth,water,fire,air,space 
and 
> consciousness element.
> 
> 
> Could someone please explain what this space element is, is it a 
Paramattha 
> Dhamma or Pannatti/the concept of space as above ?
> 
> Thanks 
> Steve.
	

 	
	
	


18243

From: Beth <An_Morrigna@B...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 0:25pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member

 	
From: <upasaka@a...>
Hi, Beth -
=========================
Welcome to the list from another member and an ex-Philadelphian! I
was
born in Philly *many* years ago, West Philly to be exact, and I remained
there until my early 30's. My wife and lived there while I was going for my
Ph.D. at the U. of P and teaching math at Temple University. We lived near
City Line Avenue near the park at that time.
Are there any Theravadin groups, centers, wats, or other Theravadin
organizations in the area now? All I ever seem to see on lists are
non-Theravadin, Buddhist organizations in the Philly area.

With metta,
Howard
**************************************
Hello all, Hello Howard,
Thank you Howard for sharing some of your background with me
:-)
I've lived in rural Pa. most of my life and moved here to Blue
Bell about five years ago.
I've checked the web, only centers I've seen thus far aren't
specifically Theravedan.

~peace,
Beth
	
18244

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 0:12pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
In a message dated 12/26/2002 9:46:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
LBIDD@w... writes:

<< L: I notice that in both notes, MA, the commentary to the Majjima
Nikaya, avoids saying Nibbana is not self.

Larry >>

I disagree with your take on these quotes Larry. I believe in the first 
case, it in fact does directly say that Nibbana is not self as follows: --

Quote: -- "dhamma" includes both the
conditioned and the unconditioned.

The point of saying that "all dhammas are not self" as opposed to saying -- 
all sankharas are not self -- is to include both the conditioned and 
unconditioned (nibbana).

The second quote is merely making a point regarding particular misconceivings 
of what Nibbana means; ie, various false views.
	
18245

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 6:49pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
Hi TG,

This quote, "Quote: -- "dhamma" includes both the conditioned and the
unconditioned." is Ven. Bodhi's comment and he follows this with, "This
interpretation, however, is not endorsed by the commentaries of Acariya
Buddhagosa."

Larry
	
18246

From: James <buddhatrue@y...> <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 7:02pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Significant Event

 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, azita gill 
<gazita2002@y...> wrote:
> --- "James <buddhatrue@y...>" <
> > dear James,
> In the past I did not tear my hair out re some
> of your posts -- I just did not read them - press the
> delete button and you were gone!
> However, I have been reading some of your
> later posts and really like them - esp. the very
> sensitive and caring letters that you have written to
> the Star Kids. I have also benefited from them.
> I am enjoying Nina's posts on patience -
> Khanti - and thought that you have must have patience
> to answer the Star Kids' letters.
> Seems like we need LOTS of patience to develop
> right understanding of this present moment. I have
> been listening to tapes that were recorded while we
> were in Thailand and K.Sujin constantly reminds us to
> stay with this present moment and that clinging takes
> us away from this moment, again and again.
> I remind ple. to have patience, courage and
> good cheer, but I think I am only just beginning to
> see the real value in developing patience - the
> supreme purification of body, speech and mind.
> Thanks James,
> Cheers, Azita

Azita and All,

You would actually delete my posts when you received them? Hehehe… 
That cracks me up! Good for you!! Better to delete my posts than to 
let them bother you.

Well, I am not sure if I am terribly different now than when I began 
posting. Granted, my posts to the Star Kids are sweet, genuine, 
caring, creative, and more insightful than my posts to adult members 
most of the time. Why is that? I relate better with most kids more 
than most adults. Many adults (not all) seem to have too many 
hidden agendas, defensiveness, inferiority complexes, `know-it-
all'ness, and insincerity. Most kids (not all) are like blank 
slates asking questions in a pure and straightforward way. Even 
when they disagree, it is not usually because they want to disprove 
someone else, they just don't agree. With adults, it is often a 
game of intellectual `king of the hill', and many people for reasons 
I have yet to understand often target me as someone to knock down. 
Azita, you did the right thing. If I rub you the wrong way, just 
delete my post. That should be the end of problem. But many adults 
are not insightful enough to do that. I have been banned 
(permanently and temporarily) from at least four other 
Buddhist/spiritual groups (two Buddhist, one gay Buddhist, one gay 
Pagan). I have received more hate mail from Buddhists than most 
would think possible. Was this entirely their fault? No, I think 
it was predominately my fault because I didn't have the patience you 
credit me with. One snotty post got another one in return from me, 
until it snowballed and I was finally kicked out or sanctioned. 
When it comes to a `war of words' I rarely lose and rarely give in. 
Not very wise on my part. Thankfully, DSG has predominately wise 
members who don't play `one-upmanship' (except a few new members who 
are pushing it lately) and is under the wise leadership of Sarah and 
Jon…who both have patience in abundance.

Patience is indeed one the greatest virtues a person can cultivate. 
And it is just about the hardest thing to practice; but so very 
important. Patience is so difficult to have because just think about 
what it requires: humility, wisdom, compassion, love, selflessness, 
energy, dedication, faith, empathy, etc., etc., etc.,. Azita, you 
credit me far too much with the declaration that I have patience. I 
am still working on that one immensely; but I thank you all the same 
and am glad that my recent posts don't inspire you to delete `me' 
anymore…like some kind of voodoo doll destroyed in effigy ;-).

I know I am going on about patience, but I think it is so 
important. I want to relate one more thing. These days I am 
reminded of an episode of 60 minutes I saw several years ago. In 
that episode, sociology researchers decided to conduct a 
longitudinal study of a group of six-year-olds. The study was to 
see the effect of patience in a person's life. They took each child 
into a room, put a small bowl of three M&Ms in front of him or her, 
and gave the following instructions: `I am going to leave the room. 
You are to stay in this chair and wait for me. If you want, you can 
eat these M&Ms, but if you can wait until I get back, I will give 
you five more.' Then the researcher left the child alone in the 
room for five minutes with nothing to do except stare at these 
candies. Some of them ate the candy right away; some of them waited 
a few minutes and ate the candy; and some of them waited the whole 
time to receive more candy. These children were re-visited 10, 15, 
and 20 years later to see how they were progressing in life. The 
majority of those who could not wait had a very hard life filled 
with drug abuse, crime, inability to maintain relationships, and 
personal dissatisfaction. The majority of those who could wait were 
very successful, highly educated, and had a great deal of personal 
satisfaction.

Can we all wait before eating our three candies? So much rests on 
just that one thing.

Metta, James
	
18247

From: James <buddhatrue@y...> <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 7:54pm
Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive <nidive@y...>" 
<nidive@y...> wrote:
> Dear James,
> I don't agree that nibbana is undefinable. If it were undefinable, 
I 
> am sure the Buddha would have said that it is undefinable. 
<snip>

Hi NEO,

I replied to some of your comments in-text and follow up with some 
source information:

I don't agree that nibbana is undefinable. If it were undefinable, I 
am sure the Buddha would have said that it is undefinable. 

<James: He did.>

But he didn't.

<James: Yes he did. So did his enlightened monks and nuns.> 

Instead he gave us various descriptions of it through various suttas 
from the Tipitaka.

<James: He didn't give any descriptions of it. He just explained 
what it is NOT; which really isn't a description at all. [i.e. I 
got something for Christmas. It wasn't a red corvette, a Barbie 
doll, nor an electric cattle prod. What was it? You don't know? 
Why not? I just gave you as much description as the Buddha did for 
nibbana!] He just didn't want people to think they had achieved 
Nibbana when they really hadn't. He had to say something about it. 
It is the Third Noble Truth after all. But he said as little as 
possible. He didn't have to say much really, when people were 
around him they knew he had it. When people where around his 
arahants, they knew they had it. Now that the world is void of 
arahants, too many people seek definitions or something else 
tangible. There is nothing to be found. You have to look 
inside.> 

And he never mentioned that nibbana is undefinable (not any sutta I 
know of).

<James: Do you know all of the suttas? You really shouldn't speak 
like such an authority unless you are 100% sure of something. I 
will provide some sutta originations after my in-text replies.>

I am pretty sure the idea of nibbana as undefinable originates from 
the Mahayana school of teaching.

<James: Huh? What makes you say this? Just because you don't agree 
you shouldn't immediately blame those poor, innocent, misguided 
Mahayana Buddhists!;-) Just kidding!>

I don't agree that nibbana is foreign to the mind of an ariyan.
Nibbana is known by any ariyan. How is nibbana known? It is by means 
of the impermanent mind that nibbana is known.

<James: Until you become an arahant, I don't see how you have the 
place to make any assumptions of how nibbana is known.>

And it was through that that the Buddha was able to give us a 
description of nibbana. If nibbana was not known by the impermanent 
mind of the Buddha, we are all discussing about nibbana in vain.

<James: Discussions of nibbana ARE in vain, but they are fun. It is 
fun to boggle the mind with what it cannot possibly know. But I 
believe that the greater purpose of this group and discussion is to 
further clarify the Eightfold Path, how best to follow it, and to 
provide inspiration. Not everyone may even believe in nibbana. 
Which is fine. Buddhism is good in the beginning, good in the 
middle, and good in the end.>

Supposing there is a kind of animal that no man had ever seen. How 
are we going to 'define' such an unknown animal? Something which is 
not known by the mind cannot be 'defined'. Similarly, a non-ariyan 
cannot 'define' nibbana simply because his mind does not know 
nibbana. But an ariyan can 'define' nibbana simply because his mind 
does know nibbana.

<James: Neo, this is circular logic based on a false assumption. 
The assumption you are making is that nibbana has the qualities 
similar to the mind or animals, or anything really. Nibbana doesn't 
have any such qualities. It is off the radar screen my friend. How 
does an enlightened person know nibbana with a mind foreign to 
nibbana? I don't know. Get back to me if and when I am enlightened…
probably several hundred lifetimes from now. And then I probably 
wouldn't be able to tell you anyway! ;-)>

> Definable charactersitics come from thoughts, but nibbana is
> non-thought; so it cannot be defined or described.

But I am sure that the following sutta quote comes from the thoughts 
of the Buddha:

"This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all 
fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of 
craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana." 
-- AN III.32

I am sure that the Buddha does know nibbana. I am sure that the 
Buddha is Fully Self-Enlightened.

I am sure that if nibbana is undefinable, the Buddha would have said 
so. It is too important a subject for him to keep silent.

<James: Neo, you are sure of a lot of things I am not so sure of. 
The only thing I know is that even if the Buddha really, really, 
really, really wanted to describe what nibbana was like, he 
couldn't. It would be impossible for him to capture the full flavor 
of it. He resulted to using metaphors to give some idea. He 
couldn't use analytical thought to describe it in a way that 
everyone would be in agreement about…or even be partly in agreement 
about. Why do you think he was so hesitant to teach what he had 
learned? How do you teach what is impossible to describe?>


Okay, I am rather busy with my niece so I don't have the time to 
track down the original suttas this article refers to and analyze 
them; thankfully, the work has already been done for me. Here is 
unequivocal proof that the Buddha and his enlightened monks/nuns 
said that it is impossible to describe Nibbana or Parinibbana, and 
why, from "Buddhist Women at the Time of the Buddha" by Hellmuth 
Hecker :

"…Khema tried to explain this to the King with a simile. She asked 
him whether he had a clever mathematician or statistician, who could 
calculate for him how many hundred, thousand or hundred-thousand 
grains of sand are contained in the river Ganges. The King replied 
that that is not possible. The nun then asked him whether he knew of 
anyone who could figure out how many gallons of water are contained 
in the great ocean. That, too, the King considered impossible. Khema 
asked him why it is not possible. The King replied that the ocean is 
mighty, deep, unfathomable.

Just so, said Khema, is the Exalted One. Whoever wished to define 
the Awakened One, could only do so through the five clung-to 
aggregates and the Buddha no longer clung-to them. "Released from 
clinging to form, feeling, perception, mental formations and 
consciousness is the Enlightened One, mighty, deep unfathomable as 
the great ocean." 

Therefore it was not appropriate to say he existed or did not exist, 
or existed and did not exist, nor did he neither exist nor not 
exist. All these designations could not define what was undefinable. 
Just that was liberation: liberation from the compulsion to 
stabilize as "self" the constant flux of the five aggregates, which 
are never the same in any given moment, but only appear as a 
discharge of tensions arising from mental formations. 

The King rejoiced in the penetrating explanation of the nun Khema. 
Later on he met the Enlightened One and asked him the same four 
questions. The Buddha explained it exactly as Khema had done, even 
using the same words. The King was amazed and recounted his 
conversation with the wise nun Khema, the Arahant. (S 44,1)"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel292.html

Metta, James
	
18248

From: James <buddhatrue@y...> <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 7:58pm
Subject: Re: Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 
<phamdluan@a...>" <phamdluan@a...> wrote:
> 
> Dear James,
> 
> <snip>
> But the self you refer to as
> << individually the aggregates are non-self, 
> but maybe together they are self >>
> is the << empirical self >> !
<snip> 
> 
> Peace,
> 
> 
> KKT

Hi KKT,

I didn't refer to any such thing! I stated that the scholars Rahula 
quoted are using that argument, which I disagreed with. Hmmmm...was 
I unclear? My apologies.

Metta, James
	
18249

From: phamdluan2000 <phamdluan@a...> <phamdluan@a...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 9:01pm
Subject: Re: Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
Dear James,


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James <buddhatrue@y...>" 
<buddhatrue@y...> wrote:


> Dear James,
> 
> <snip>
> But the self you refer to as
> << individually the aggregates are non-self, 
> but maybe together they are self >>
> is the << empirical self >> !
<snip> 
> 
> Peace,
> 
> 
> KKT


Hi KKT,

I didn't refer to any such thing! I stated that the scholars Rahula 
quoted are using that argument, which I disagreed with. Hmmmm...was 
I unclear? My apologies.

Metta, James





KKT: Thanks for the clarification.
It's my fault to not carefully read.

Sometimes I think in using such medium
people understand each other at best 30% :-))


Metta,


KKT
	
18250

From: phamdluan2000 <phamdluan@a...> <phamdluan@a...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 9:10pm
Subject: Re: Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
Dear Christine


--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth 
<cforsyth@v...>" <cforsyth@v...> wrote:


Hi Rahula, James, KKT, TG, Larry, and All,

A few quotes on self and Self - (Buddha-nature, Dharma-body, rigpa 
and Nibbana get a mention as well).

< snip >




KKT: Thank you very much
for those interesting quotes.

I'm particularly interested
in the following one:


Thanissaro Bhikkhu says in his Translators Note to the Mulapariyaya 
sutta: "there has long been -- and still is -- a common tendency to 
create a "Buddhist" metaphysics in which the experience of emptiness, 
the Unconditioned, the Dharma-body, Buddha-nature, rigpa, etc., is 
said to function as the ground of being from which the "All" -- the 
entirety of our sensory & mental experience -- is said to spring and 
to which we return when we meditate. Some people think that these 
theories are the inventions of scholars without any direct meditative 
experience, but actually they have most often originated among 
meditators, who label (or in the words of the discourse, "perceive") 
a particular meditative experience as the ultimate goal, identify 
with it in a subtle way (as when we are told that "we are the 
knowing"), and then view that level of experience as the ground of 
being out of which all other experience comes. "


Peace,


KKT
	
18251

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 9:18pm
Subject: Cankers/clingings/tendencies/fetters/defilements etc. vs Perfections

 	
Dear Group,

I was thinking about the year to come, and the significance of New 
Year's Eve and the resolutions most people make. Usually the 
Resolutions are to decrease some qualities/behaviours seen as 
unwholesome (drinking, smoking, harsh speech) or to increase some 
qualities/behaviours seen as wholesome (thinking before one speaks, 
being kinder and more generous.). 

Just to help you prepare your List, here is what the Buddha taught 
were the Unwholesome things to be discouraged, and eradicated 
(rather depressingly, in so many lists and under so many different 
names). Does any list seem easier than the others? :-)): 

3 floods, oghas a.k.a. 3 yokes, yoghas - sense-desire (kamasava), 
of (desiring eternal ) existence (bhavasava), and of ignorance 
(avijjasava).
4 cankers, asavas - sense-desire (kamasava), of (desiring eternal ) 
existence, (bhavasava), (wrong) views (ditthasava), and ignorance 
(avijjasava).
4 ties, ganthas - the bodily tie (kayagantha), covetousness 
(abhijjha), ill-will (vyapada), clinging to rule and ritual 
(silabbata-paramasa), of dogmatical fanaticism (idamsaccabhinivesa) 
4 ways of clinging, upadanas - sensuous clinging (kamupadana), 
clinging to views (dittupadana), clinging to mere rules and ritual 
(silabbatupadana), clinging to the personality-belief (atta-
vadupadana)
5 hindrances, nivaranas - sensuous desire (kamacchanda), ill-will 
(vyapada), sloth and torpor (thina-middha), restlessness and scruples 
(uddhacca-kukkucca) and sceptical doubt (vicikiccha).
7 latent tendencies, anusayas - sensuous greed (kama-raga), grudge 
(patigha), speculative opinion (ditthi), sceptical doubt 
(vicikiccha), conceit (mana), craving for continued existence 
(bhavaraga), ignorance (avijja).
10 fetters, samyojanas - personality-belief (sakkaya-ditthi), 
sceptical doubt (vicikiccha), clinging to mere rules and ritual 
(silabbata-paramasa) sensuous craving (kama-raga), ill-will 
(vyapada), craving for fine-material existence (rupa-raga), craving 
for immaterial existence (arupa-raga), conceit (mana), restlessness 
(uddhacca), ignorance (avijja).
10 defilements, kilesas - greed (lobha), hate (dosa), delusion 
(moha), conceit (mana), speculative views (ditthi), sceptical doubt 
(vicikiccha), mental torpor (thina), restlessness (uddhacca), 
shamelessness (ahirika), lack of moral dread or unconscientiousness 
(anottappa).

And what the Buddha taught were the ten Wholesome qualities to be 
encouraged and increased:

The Paramis -

The Perfection of Giving (dana-parami)
The Perfection of Morality (sila-parami)
The Perfection of Renunciation (nekkhamma-parami)
The Perfection of Wisdom (panna-parami)
The Perfection of Energy (viriya-parami)
The Perfection of Patience (khanti-parami)
The Perfection of Truthfulness (sacca-parami)
The Perfection of Resolution (adhitthana-parami)
The Perfection of Loving-kindness (metta-parami)
The Perfection of Equanimity (upekkha-parami).

metta,
Christine
	
18252

From: nidive <nidive@y...> <nidive@y...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 6:03am
Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi James,

<James: He didn't give any descriptions of it. He just explained 
what it is NOT; which really isn't a description at all.>

But in AN III.32, he explained what it IS.


<James: Do you know all of the suttas? You really shouldn't speak 
like such an authority unless you are 100% sure of something.>

I am sure there are numerous scholars who have turned the pages of 
the Tipitaka over and over again. If there were any suttas where the 
Buddha said that nibbana is undefinable, I should have read them at 
AccessToInsight. After all, nibbana is such an important topic. If 
nibbana is undefinable, the Buddha would have asked his Bikkhus to 
shut up, because discussions about nibbana would be unprofitable. Is 
there any Vinaya rule that says something to that effect?


<James: Huh? What makes you say this? Just because you don't agree 
you shouldn't immediately blame those poor, innocent, misguided 
Mahayana Buddhists!;-) Just kidding!>

Those Mahayana Buddhists as indeed poor and misguided anyway.


<James: Here is unequivocal proof that the Buddha and his 
enlightened monks/nuns said that it is impossible to describe 
Nibbana or Parinibbana, and why, from "Buddhist Women at the Time of 
the Buddha" by Hellmuth Hecker : >

James, I appreciate your effort in finding this sutta. But Bikkhuni 
Khema was not talking about nibbana. She was talking about self-
views. All four questions asked by the King have self-view as a 
requisite. That was why all four questions were rejected by the 
Buddha.

Bikhuni Khema said:
"Released from clinging to form, feeling, perception, mental
formations and consciousness is the Enlightened One, mighty, deep, 
unfathomable as the great ocean."

But she did NOT say:
"Released from clinging to form, feeling, perception, mental 
formations and consciousness is nibbana, mighty, deep, unfathomable 
as the great ocean."

Clearly, the Enlightened One, though unbound, is not equivalent to 
nibbana. Bikkhuni Khema did not say that nibbana is mighty, deep, 
unfathomable as the great ocean.

The purpose of this sutta is to eliminate self-views. The King 
clearly sees the Enlightened One as possessing a self by reference 
to the four questions he asked. Bikkhuni Khema was trying 
to 'divert' the King away from self-views.

The statement "Released from clinging to form, feeling, perception, 
mental formations and consciousness is the Enlightened One, mighty, 
deep, unfathomable as the great ocean." does not have self-views as 
a requisite.

I would not comment on what was written by the author of this 
article. I only comment on what was said by Bikkhuni Khema. My 
interpretation of the sutta is different from that of the author of 
this article.


Regards,
NEO Swee Boon
	
18253

From: nidive <nidive@y...> <nidive@y...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:15am
Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1

 	
Hi James,

> I would not comment on what was written by the author of this 
> article. I only comment on what was said by Bikkhuni Khema. My 
> interpretation of the sutta is different from that of the author
> of this article.

On second thought, I think it would be unskilful of me not to 
comment on this statement made by the author of this article.

... Therefore it was not appropriate to say he existed or did not 
exist, or existed and did not exist, nor did he neither exist nor 
not exist. All these designations could not define what was 
undefinable. ...

It is inappropriate NOT because these designations could not define 
what was undefinable.

It is inappropriate because these designations have self-views as 
the requisite.

P.: Does an Awakened One exist after death?
K.: The Exalted One has not declared that an Awakened One exists 
after death.
P.: Then an Awakened One does not exist after death?
K.: That too, the Exalted One has not declared.
P.: Then the Awakened One exists after death and does not exist?
K.: Even that, the Exalted One has not declared.
P.: Then one must say, the Awakened One neither exists nor not 
exists after death?
K.: That too, the Exalted One has not declared.

If the Buddha had not declared, how could the author of this article 
declare as undefinable what the Buddha had not declared?

It is like stuffing words into the Buddha's mouth when the Buddha 
had not even opened his mouth to speak.


Regards,
NEO Swee Boon
	
18254

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 10:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Significant Event

 	
Dear James.
:-) :-)

op 26-12-2002 21:23 schreef James <buddhatrue@y...> op
buddhatrue@y...:

I want to express my appreciation to `that Nina person'
> for providing a role model of `Dhamma Dedication'. I hope everyone is
> learning as much as I am.
	
18255

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 10:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Photo album

 	
Hi, I could nopt stop laughing.
Nina. 
op 27-12-2002 17:33 schreef James <buddhatrue@y...> op
buddhatrue@y...:

> 
> I tried to remove the grain in Peter's picture. I was successful to
> some extent. I think it looks much better and gives a good idea of
> Peter's visage (I can just hear him saying `Cheers!') As requested,
> I also removed your gray hair. Additionally, I took the opportunity
> to give you a more forceful appearance. I don't think anyone will
> mess with you after they see this photo!! ;-) I also, for the
> holiday season, fixed up a picture of Howard. It captures his Jolly
> Spirit!!
	
18256

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 10:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element

 	
Steve, 
See below
op 27-12-2002 07:27 schreef Bodhi2500@a... op Bodhi2500@a...:

> 
> Abhidhammattha Sangaha Ch VIII, section 4, on pannattis:
> vii) concept of space (akasa), such as a well or a cave. It is
> derived from space which is not contacted by the four Great Elements.
> 
>> From the Bahudhatuka Sutta M.>
> 
> There are Ananda these 6 elements:The earth,water,fire,air,space and
> consciousness element.
> 
> 
> Could someone please explain what this space element is, is it a Paramattha
> Dhamma or Pannatti/the concept of space as above ?

Nina:space is a quality of rupa which delimits the kalapas, groups of rupa.
There is space in between them so that they are distinct. When we read that
space cannot be cut or ploughed, it is a conventional way of explaining its
characteristic.
There is space in the ear, a condition for hearing sound. I do not need to
think, is this a concept or reality. It clarifies realities for me.

Nina.
	
18257

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 10:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 30, Synopsis, sunnatavara

 	
Larry,
op 27-12-2002 04:26 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:
> 
> It looks to me like this section opens the contemplation of
> consciousness and dhammas to include all the fine details and many ways
> of classifying them of the abhidhamma. Does anyone know what text this
> line refers to and what it means:
> 
> "the instruction of the portion dealing with the void in the Abhidhamma
> proceeded by means of the statement beginning with "At that time indeed
> there are phenomena, there are aggregates [yam vibhavetum abhidhamme
> tasmim kho pana samaye dhamma honti khandha hantiti adina
> suññatavara desana pavatta]], without any mention of a soul"
Nina: 
the subco has:
su~n~natadhammassaati ``dhammaa hontii''tiaadinaa (dhammasangani 121)
su~n~natavaare aagatasu~n~natasabhaavassa vasena.
Now I go to: 
Dhammasangani, p. 30. 31, Emptiness section (sunnatavaro):
Now, at that time there are states...
khandhas,ayatanas (spheres), elements, etc. these are states (dhammaa honti)
that are good (kusala).
Now I go to: 
Explanation by the Atthasalini, Expositor,I, Part IV, Ch IV, p. 206: Of the
section on the void or emptiness:

<...And here there are only states (dhammas); no permanent being, no soul is
known These (fiftysix states) are mere states without essence, without a
guiding principle. And it is to show the emptiness of this that they are
stated here also.Therefore the meaning should here be thus regarded.
At what time the first main type of moral consciousness (kusala citta)
experienced in the realm of sense arises, at that time, by virtue of being
factors in consciousness, the fifty and more states which have arisen are
ultimate things. There is nothing else whatever, neither a being, nor an
individuality, nor a man nor a person. Likewise they are aggregates in the
sense of groups...>

Now straight after this explanation in the Expositor something of interest
for Howard:
<And because there is no Jhana factor different from Jhana, no Path factor
different from the Path , therefore here it is said merely:'there is Jhana,
there is Path.'>
There is Jhana, there is Path, in that way they were enumerated in the list
in the Dhsg.
But now about jhana factors: in this context, the jhana facors developed in
samatha are referred to. But the word jhana factor can also be used in a
more general sense: they also accompany akusala citta. Thinking, vitakka
performs its function so that lobha-mula-citta views the object closely, it
conditions the accompanying dhammas by way of jhana-condition. This is one
of the twentyfour main conditions. See Ven. Nyanaponika: Abhidhamma Studies.
Nina.
	
18258

From: nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 10:32am
Subject: Dhamma Issues, 2, Fruition Attainment, no 3.

 	
Dhamma Issues, 2, Fruition Attainment, no 3.

3. The Saddhammappakåsiní, Commentary to the Paìisambhidåmagga, Path of
Discrimination, Khuddaka Nikåya, explains that the ariyan who can enter
fruition-attainment must have attained jhåna.
We read in the Commentary to Ch XXXIII, Abiding without Conflict (Arana
Vihåra, peaceful abiding) about the understanding of peaceful abiding (arana
vihåra). It explains about the arana vihåra dhammas as the means to be
without defilements which are like enemies or cause beings to cry and
lament. It states that the ariyans who can enter fruition attainment must
have attained jhåna; only then can they be intent upon fruition-attainment.
As it is said:

³ Panítådhimutta, they are intent upon fruition attainment. (panítå means:
excellent, superior, what does not cause agitation and leads to predominance
(8; adhimutta means: to be intent upon, inclined to). The inclination and
disposition to fruition-attainment is called paùítådhimutta. It is the
inclination to fruition-attainment which is subtle and refined.
Paùítådhimutta is here actually the prerequisite 9 for paññå which is intent
upon fruition-attainment.²
At another part we read, ³ In the explanation of the first jhåna etc., the
Commentator assists in explaining in the same way the term panítådhimutta.²

In another part in the Commentary, in the explanation of ³Understanding of
Peaceful Abiding², arana vihåra ñåna, we read about the arahat entering into
fruition-attainment:

²With the words pathamam jhånam, the first jhåna, he speaks about the
attainment of jhåna (jhåna samåpatti) which is the object of vipassanå of
someone wanting to enter fruition-attainment of the stage of the arahat.²

Even the arahat who does not have the hindrances, when he wants to enter
fruition-attainment, he must have calm of citta of the degree of jhåna, from
the first stage of jhåna onwards, and this is arana vihåra, peaceful
abiding. We read: 
³The meaning of the words Œpathamena jhånena nívarane harati ti, arana
vihåro¹, is as follows: it is called arana vihåra, peaceful abiding, because
it removes the hindrances by the first jhåna. It is explained that the first
jhåna is called peaceful abiding because the factors which constitute the
first jhåna remove the hindrances (nívarane harati). The other words of the
text also explain this in the same way. One should know that the first jhåna
has been referred to as removing the hindrances because the first jhåna is
opposed to the hindrances and this is said also with regard to the arahat
who does not have them anymore.²

We read further on: ²...Jhåna attainment which is the foundation for
vipassanå of fruition attainment². This clearly shows that in order to enter
fruition-attainment one must be able to attain jhåna.

footnotes:

8. We read in the ³Path of Discrimination², Ch XXXIII, Abiding without
conflict about the predominance of seeing: that contemplation of
impermanence, dukkha and anattå is predominance of seeing. The Commentary
explains that seeing here is insight knowledge.
9. Paññå accompanying jhånacitta.
	
18259

From: James <buddhatrue@y...> <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 11:20am
Subject: NEO of The Matrix (Was:Re: Dhamma Issues...etc.)

 	
Hi NEO,

Wow! You are a good sparing partner! Okay, round two of the 
intellectual combat. Are you prepared? To paraphrase what Morpheus 
tells NEO in the movie `The Matrix', `You think I am stronger than 
you because I have a bigger body. That is not what matters. The 
sizes of our bodies are illusion; the mind is the only thing that is 
real.' In other words, the size of our arguments and sutta 
references are illusion also. The mind is the only thing that is 
real. Additionally, ss Morpheus says to Neo in the movie, "There's 
a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." 
(Ignoring the bloodshed, The Matrix is one of my favorite Buddhist 
movies. I am looking forward to the sequels coming out this summer.)

Neo, you write:
"Bikhuni Khema said:
"Released from clinging to form, feeling, perception, mental
formations and consciousness is the Enlightened One, mighty, deep, 
unfathomable as the great ocean."

But she did NOT say:
"Released from clinging to form, feeling, perception, mental 
formations and consciousness is nibbana, mighty, deep, unfathomable 
as the great ocean."

Clearly, the Enlightened One, though unbound, is not equivalent to 
nibbana. Bikkhuni Khema did not say that nibbana is mighty, deep, 
unfathomable as the great ocean."

This is where you make your great mistake in thinking. You are 
taking the `illusionary' as real. It isn't. You think I am real 
and you are real. We aren't real. Nibbana is the only thing that 
is real. What is Nibbana? Release from the unreal. Who was 
released from the unreal? The Buddha. What is the difference 
between the Buddha and Nibbana? NONE. 

Furthermore, what causes the unreal? Stress and agitation from 
ignorance, desire for existence, and craving cause the unreal. What 
are the characteristics of Nibbana? From the perspective of our 
unreal existence: Profound peace or calm. As the Buddha said, in 
the sutta you like, `"This is peace, this is exquisite -- the 
resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all 
acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; 
Nibbana." Is this a description for the characteristics of 
nibbana? You seem to think so, but I disagree. You seem to think 
that Nibbana is like a secret knowledge that the Buddha had that the 
rest of us have to learn. Nope, that isn't the point. Nibbana 
isn't 'knowing' anything specific, it is releasing the mind from the 
very thing that formed it. 

Let me use an analogy to explain what I think the mind of the Buddha 
was like. He saw that we are all composed of five pieces, like a 
jigsaw puzzle with five pieces. He was able to disassemble those 
five pieces when he went into the highest Jhanic states and rest in 
pure nibbana without the aggregates assembled. However, he could 
also put the pieces back together so that he could deal and interact 
mentally with the mundane world. But with the pieces together, that 
didn't mean he had lost Nibbana, he still had it all the time 
because he knew that he was just five pieces to an illusionary 
jigsaw puzzle. He could remove one piece at a time, change the 
pieces, and manipulate them anyway he saw fit. He was nibbana. 
When he died, he entered the highest jhanic state, thus breaking 
apart the five pieces of the puzzle, and let them finally 
disappear. He entered parinibbana, without the aggregates any 
longer. He could have done this sooner, but decided to stick around 
for 45 years to teach the rest of us about our jigsaw puzzles. Now, 
you and I think our jigsaw puzzle is one thing and the complete 
picture of reality. We cannot begin to think outside of what that 
puzzle shows us. The Buddha could go between Nibbana and Samsara at 
will. He saw that Samsara is an illusion, we see it as real. We 
cannot know nibbana while we still see samsara as real. 

As Morpheus explains to Neo in `The Matrix': "As long as the Matrix 
exists, the human race will never be free." As long as a human is 
stuck in samsara, it cannot know or be in nibbana. Does this apply 
to all humans? If all humans were liberated would samsara cease to 
exist completely? This possibility applies to your comment about 
Mahayana Buddhists, which I will address at a later time. I have 
some other things to do today. 

Metta, James
	
18260

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 6:38am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
“It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could 
treat anything as self – there is no such possibility.�

(The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha (Majjhima Nikaya), 
pg.928, Bahudhatuka Sutta, The Many Kinds of Elements.)





Hi Larry and other "not self" contemplators...



I wasn't quite sure whether this quote was in dispute or the translation of 
it perhaps. It seems as clear as clear can be.

The argument that the term sankhara was changed to dhamma in the infamous 
quote -- "All conditioned things (sankharas) are impermanent, all conditioned 
things (sankharas) are dukkha, all things (dhammas) are not self" -- to 
include such things as "concepts" makes no sense. Concepts would fall under 
the category of sankhara's as they are conditioned phenomena. And certainly 
from an Abhidhamma point of view, where dhammas are considered ultimate 
realities, there would be no reason to include concepts under the heading 
"dhammas." However, one would expect to include Nibbanna under that heading.

There is another quote from the 4 Great Nikayas (not sure of exactly where) 
where the Buddha says that -- the 5 aggregates are not self and there is no 
other reasonable place to look for a self other than (outside of) the 5 
aggregates. In other words...there isn't a self anywhere to be found. 
(Perhaps our friend Ray might know the exact spot of this quote?) It seems 
that "self view" is so dominating that people want to look for it in every 
possible nook and cranny.

Just a few more thoughts on the subject.

TG


	
18261

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 0:14pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 30, Synopsis, sunnatavara

 	
Hi Nina,

Thanks for the research. I didn't follow what "kusala" had to do with
it, but the main point seemed to be that "atta", self, wasn't listed
among the list of 52 ultimate dhammas.

It's interesting that citta process is contemplated under cittanupassana
and dhammanupassana and own characteristic and general characteristic
(tilakkhana) are only contemplated under dhammanupassana. Although I'm
sure one could see that body, feeling, or consciousness are not self
while practicing those mindfulnesses.

Btw, it occured to me that "mindfulness" in the sense of attentiveness
is a better translation of "anupassana" than of "sati". I'm thinking of
the "look at" definition of anupassana here. "Mindfulness" in the sense
of being mindful of kusala dhamma or mindful of the truth would fit
"sati". What do you think? 

Larry
	
18262

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 0:24pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
Hi TG,

Abhidhamma doesn't consider concepts to be sankhara because it doesn't
consider them to be impermanent. Thinking about concepts and what we
understand by a certain concept are impermanent but the concept itself
is not, at least according to the abhidhamma system.

Larry
	
18263

From: Kom Tukovinit <kom@a...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 0:41pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
Dear Larry & TG,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...]
>
> Hi TG,
>
> Abhidhamma doesn't consider concepts to be
> sankhara because it doesn't
> consider them to be impermanent. Thinking about
> concepts and what we
> understand by a certain concept are impermanent
> but the concept itself
> is not, at least according to the abhidhamma system.
>

The Abhidhamma lists concept as something that doesn't have
its distinct characteristics (sabhava), i.e., it doesn't
exist, at least not in the same way as feeling, sanna,
citta, etc, does. Because it doesn't exist, it doesn't
arise or fall away. It's not really permanent, or
impermanent (because it doesn't exist).

This is in contrast to all the other categories of sankhara
dhammas, and visankhara dhammas (nibbana), which have their
own distinct characteristics.

kom
	
18264

From: peterdac4298 <peterdac4298@y...> <peterdac4298@y...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 2:34pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Photo album

 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James <buddhatrue@y...>" 
<buddhatrue@y...> wrote:
<snip> 
> I tried to remove the grain in Peter's picture. I was successful 
to 
> some extent. I think it looks much better and gives a good idea 
of 
> Peter's visage (I can just hear him saying `Cheers!')
<snip> 
> The pics can be viewed at this link:
> http://www.geocities.com/buddhatrue/dsg.htm
> 
> Metta, James
<snip>

Thank you James for your kind effort.

I finally gave up on the cheep digital cam, and went out and got a 
booth picture, which a local photographer's then put onto a floppy 
disk. It has been uploaded and replaces the original. Whilst it is 
a more accurate representation I somehow preferred the original 
grainy version: such is vanity.

Cheers
Peter
	
18265

From: <LBIDD@w...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 4:06pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anatta - View of some scholars

 	
Hi Kom,

It is true that according to Abhidhamma concepts are not paramattha
dhammas but it would be incorrect to say concepts are not dhammas.
Correct? 

If this is correct, the commentators would be correct in saying the word
"dhamma" could includes both sankhara dhammas and concepts but the word
"sankhara" would not include concepts. They simply didn't take up the
question of the characteristics of nibbana in the passage we are
discussing. 

I don't know, but perhaps the commentary to the "all dhammas are anatta"
line that TG brought up follows this same kind of interpretation,
refering to concepts rather than nibbana, as is commonly thought. This
would coincide with Bhikkhu Bodhi"s assertion that the ancient
commentaries as we have them from A. Buddhaghosa do not support the
position that "dhammas" is meant to include nibbana here. Nibbana is of
course a dhamma but there is no point to jumping to a conclusion on
either side of the fence. Maybe we should send someone ahead to see
what exactly nibbana is and they could report back. 

Larry
	
18266

From: James <buddhatrue@y...> <buddhatrue@y...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 4:30pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Photo album

 	
--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "peterdac4298 
<peterdac4298@y...>" <peterdac4298@y...> wrote:
> Thank you James for your kind effort.
> 
> I finally gave up on the cheep digital cam, and went out and got a 
> booth picture, which a local photographer's then put onto a floppy 
> disk. It has been uploaded and replaces the original. Whilst it 
is 
> a more accurate representation I somehow preferred the original 
> grainy version: such is vanity.
> 
> Cheers
> Peter

Hi Peter!

Oh thank you! You look dashing!!! What in the heck are you talking 
about?? If I weren't attached, I would probably start looking for 
cheap fares!! ;-) Wow! Don't look at the imperfections you see…
look at the whole picture. I am. Quite a drink of water that 
is!! ;-)

Metta, James
	
18267

From: vehapphala <vehapphala@y...> <vehapphala@y...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 4:36pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member

 	
> From: <upasaka@a...>
> Hi, Beth -
> =========================
> Welcome to the list from another member and an ex-
Philadelphian! I was born in Philly *many* years ago, West Philly to
be 
exact, and I remained there until my early 30's.
snip..............................................
.....................................
> Are there any Theravadin groups, centers, wats, or other
Theravadin
> organizations in the area now? All I ever seem to see on lists are
> non-Theravadin, Buddhist organizations in the Philly area.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard
> **************************************
> Hello all, Hello Howard,
> snip............................................
................................
... moved here to Blue Bell about five years ago. I've checked the
web, 
only centers I've seen thus far aren't specifically Theravedan.
> 
> ~peace,
> Beth
..................................................
..............................
1. Hello. My first post. If any in error please advise and delete.

2. Live in USA, retired, and travel as much as possible. Plan to
reside 
in Thailand.

3. When in the Philly area visit the Wat Thai Mongkoltepmunee in 
Bensalem, PA just north of Philly. The address is 3304 Knight Road. 
The phone number is 215.638.9755. All six Thai monks speak english. 
The acting abbot, Phra Maha Chewaa, currently is in southern Thailand 
because his father died recently. Phra Maha Suprit speaks the best 
english.

4. When in the DC area I visit Wat Thai DC in Springfield, MD. But,
that 
may be too far for you. Will provide particulars should anyone
request.

5. FWIW, I picked "vehapphala" as I may never attain this level much 
less nibbana. <smiles> Perhaps, I should use, "puthujjana?"

metta,

Norm
	
18268

From: <TGrand458@a...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 1:22pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta - forget the scholars

 	
Hi Larry



I'm still interested in your feedback on this quote that is directly 
attributed to the Buddha from the Majjhima Nikaya...

“It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could 
treat anything as self – there is no such possibility.�

(The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg.928, Bahudhatuka 
Sutta, The Many Kinds of Elements.)



TG








	
18269

From: christine_forsyth <cforsyth@v...> <cforsyth@v...> 
Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 6:42pm
Subject: Keeping Sila

 	
Dear Group,

I have been reading around the topic of Sila, what Sila is, Keeping 
Sila, possible changes to Sila, and Sila as silabbataparamasa 
(clinging to sila and wrong practice). 

In the Kimmatha Sutta, the Buddha says that keeping Sila leads to 
arahantship. Seems pretty straight forward to me, unless there's a 
hidden meaning.
'Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed 
down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the 
Blessed One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their 
reward?" 
<<<snip>>>
The Blessed One explained: "Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-
step to the consummation of arahantship." '
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an11-001.html 

Keeping Sila as the Suttas set it out sometimes seems to be 
presented as old-fashioned and outdated, clinging to rules, something 
that can change for those more advanced on the Way because of the 
higher level of panna that arises, something that can change with the 
times, or that can change with the mores of different cultures. 
I occasionally have the feeling some are implying that there is not 
just one wholesome Code of Conduct for all Buddhists, in the Training 
Rules. I almost feel that there is one way for the manyfolk but 
another way for those with greater understanding.

The Buddha spoke of the eight rewards in AN VIII.39, Abhisanda 
Sutta 'Rewards'. They consisted of going for Refuge to the Buddha, 
Dhamma and Sangha, plus the five gifts (precepts). Isn't that a 
lovely term for the Precepts?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-039.html
"Now, there are these five gifts, five great gifts -- original, long-
standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, u