19200 From: Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Way 42: [T] From the sort of mere awareness denoted by reference to canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a soul, the perverted perception, with the belief that there is a doer and an experiencer. One who does not uproot or remove that wrong perception owing to non-opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject of meditation. Hi all, I think the main difference between an animal's awareness and satipatthana is the objectivity in satipatthana. However, we could learn from animals in that we often don't experience rupa, or even nama, but are preoccupied with a stream of concepts. Larry 19201 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:20pm Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Dear Htoo Naing, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing " wrote: < snip > To cease sufferings and extinguish all the fire(Kilesas and Sanyojanas),Citta needs to be trained diligently until the Highest Panna is attained.As it is a leader,it can train itself and its allied cetasikas as well.One can sense the existance of one's Citta.So why not possible to lead oneself to a better living and life.One should never be led by bad things and bad thought.Lead yourselves.Behave yourselves.Citta is a leader and Citta is the Leader. KKT: You wrote: << it (ie. Citta) can train itself >> So Citta can << control >> (at least) itself? Metta, KKT 19202 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 0:36am Subject: Dear James Dear James, I read your letter number 18681 you wrote to Janice. It's my first time writing a letter to you. I just chose any letters you sent to different people and now I am making a reply. Because this is my first letter, I will introduce myself. My name is Ki Yong Kim from Korea. I am 14 years old this year. Please introduce yourself when you make a reply. I think this is the longest letter I ever read. WOW. I read that you write poems! And I read one of your poems about your car and it was quite funny. I have some questions. I never knew there were American monks! I thought Americans are all Christians. Why do American become Buddhist monks? I don't think I have anymore questions because you never wrote a letter to me before and I don't have anything more to talk about. Sorry. I will reply when you do~ Bye From, Ki Yong 19203 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:36am Subject: Star Kids Dear All, I just received a note offlist asking about the Star Kids. I now realize that for anyone who has recently joined DSG or didn’t read my introduction note when they first started writing a few months ago that there could be some confusion as in these comments: ..... off-list friend: “Who is this star kid. I think some one is just doing some research on how to answer some basics in Buddhism. I checked up their email id and there is no club of such in Yahoo HK. Have you noticed their emails?” ..... Yes, I have noticed their emails because I’m the one who opened the ‘Starkidsclub’ and who forwards the mail to DSG;-) These Star Kids are all, so far, students of mine aged between 8 and 14 yrs old. They started writing a few months ago after one of them, Jan, wished to write a letter after her teacher died in the Bali bomb attack. It snowballed from there. They read selected posts I show them or give them to take home and just if they wish, write posts themselves. Only one that I know of comes from a Buddhist family, so their questions are mostly simple and basic -- sometimes the hardest to answer as James says. Quite a few of them have photos posted in the photo album. The reason I opened a separate yahoo account and ask them to post to that address in the first place, rather than just join DSG as some of them would prefer, is so that a)parents are unlikely to object to their young children having their own email addresses shown on a public list and b) for me to be able to ‘veto’ if the whole post is off-topic. They have to follow the same rules that everyone else does and Kom helps keep an eye on this;-) As some are only 8 or 9 years old, there are bound to be comments about toys - this is daily life for kids. I hope that by encouraging these children to write, we may all in the process learn a little more about how we can share the Buddha’s Teachings with children. Of course anyone can skip these posts and the answers that some members kindly give. ..... off-list friend:“And who knows to how many buddhist groups these viruses have subscribed themselves. Why not do a test on this guy. A planned test to see his reaction. Just a concerned thought.” ..... Just to emphasise, there is no virus and ‘this guy’ is me or rather some of my students. If anyone has children or young friends who would like to participate in the same way, I’m happy to help if I can. I also think that some of the replies written by James, Kom, Christine and others are well worth reading out at home to any youngsters. I find them very inspiring too. Some of these can be seen in Useful Posts under 'Children - letters to' http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I’d like to also mention that some of these young lives have been quite ‘transformed’ by the replies. Children who had never learnt about or discussed any religion or questions about life, now arrive and the first thing they ask me is “Are there any new letters”. I hope this clarifies a little. Thank you for the enquiry. Metta, Sarah ===== 19204 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:03am Subject: Momentous occasion nr 2 Hi all, It is almost becoming cliche, Herman is posting another sutta link :-) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-088.html This one is about Punna, who answers the Buddha's questions as to how he will handle different levels of violence towards himself (upto and including murder). The fact that I am quoting these does not mean I agree with their position, or that I understand them, they are merely some things I found re Buddhist conflict resolution ( which so far sounds pretty much like "Whatever happens, do nothing with your body". Sarah, a slightly different topic, but I just love it when the star kids call you Mrs Abbott. It makes you sound like you are in your forties :-) Enough for now, hey All the best herman 19205 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:45am Subject: PHOTO NEWS + Re: Star Kids Hi Sarah (and off-list Friend), Your post made me smile, though I can see how our Friend could easily have taken the view about the Starkids that he or she did. I thank him or her for broaching the subject, because for everyone who asks, there are ten who had the same thought but remained silent. Sarah, your mention of the photos of the Starkids means that I ought to tell everyone that they can check out Kom's great work in rearranging the photos into briefcases. Starkids are members, and are therefore in the Members' briefcase. <> Here are some links to the photos and to the individual briefcases - you will note that the links don't run over two lines. Any questions on how that was accomplished, please direct to Kom (the one with the computer skills). metta, Christine Photos: http://tinyurl.com/4wyq Members: http://tinyurl.com/4wyt Significant Others & Family http://tinyurl.com/4wyv DSG Meetings: http://tinyurl.com/4wyu Others: http://tinyurl.com/4wyx --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear All, > > I just received a note offlist asking about the Star Kids. > 19206 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Dear Larry, Now you got it exactly. I think studying about Cetasikas will help us a lot to have a good insight into Dhamma.Would you like to discuss about the Cetasika''Vedana''?It is one of the five congregations and it is one of four Namakkhandha.What is more,we can stretch it out on to Vedananupassana,one of four Mahasatipathana which is again from 37 Bodhipakkhiya-dhamma,which are necessary in attaining the highest Panna. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > Thanks for your answer.The word "adhimokkha" means literally the releasing of the mind onto the object. Hence it has been rendered decision or resolution. It has the characteristic of conviction, the function of not groping, and manifestation as decisiveness. its proximate cause is a thing to beconvinced about. It is compared to a stone pillar owing to itsunshakable resolve regarding the object." CMA p. 82 >Larry 19207 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: rusty/buddha Dear Hilary, Heidi sounds as if she loves you a lot, wanting to lie close to your feet. What sort of dog is she? When there is a thunder storm, Rusty tries to get onto my lap. He weighs nearly 50 kg. so I don't let him or I would be squashed flat! I'm glad Heidi isn't sick anymore, when our dogs are sick or hurt we can feel so helpless and scared for them. You asked a really interesting question Hilary when you said "Do you think the Buddha can bless the family and the dog to safe and in good health?" The Buddha is not alive anymore - but he did teach that listening to and thinking about certain teachings could be like a blessing. Those teachings have an unusual name - Parittas. This means the Protections. When Rusty is stiff and sore from his injured leg, I sit with him and pat him slowly, and gently say 'Rusty, may you be safe and protected, may you be healthy and strong, may you be happy of heart and mind, may you live with ease and well-being". Rusty doesn't understand the words (apart from his name), but he understands the love that I am sending him in the pats and the gentle tone of my voice. I think all of us feel better when someone sends us love and speaks gently to us, don't you? metta (loving kindness) Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear Christine, > > My name is Hilary, I am 11.I have read some letters > about your lucky dog Rusty.I love dogs and have one of > my own call Heidi (even as I am writing this to you > she is under my legs)she will be turning two this > July.There was one time when Heidi was ill and the > whole family was worried sick about her. Do you think > the Buddha can bless the family and the dog to safe > and in good health? > > I'd love to hear more about Rusty > > Hope your dog is getting well! > > From > Hilary 19208 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Hi James, A few rambling thoughts below...... --- "James " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I have been meaning to reply to a post that I have now lost in mass > of other posts (ironically most of them about control). However, I > believe, if memory serves, that you and I have two main sticking > points from that post. One was about the round of becoming: I say > the Buddha said he didn't know how it originated, and you said that > he did and everything was explained in the Patthana (which when he > thought about multi-colored rays emanated from his body). The other > point was how could I deny rupa if there is a body which I > experience. Since the second one is more complicated, let's tackle > the first issue. .... S: I could certainly ditto your first sentence here. I think others replied and you found my lost post (yes, caught you talking about me behind my back I believe;-)) and we both agree that you mis-paraphrased me and you stated I mis-praphrased you. I won’t ‘tic-tac’ over that;-) I think Howard gave a very neat summary when he said: ..... H: "Now, the Patthana is an attempt at describing the varieties of relationships holding among conditioned dhammas. It serves as a parallel system, I believe, to the scheme of dependent origination. Now, whether it is due to the Buddha or not, and whether *any* of the Abhidhamma is due to the Buddha or not, I don't think that there is any contradiction between an attempt to lay bare all possible interconnections among conditioned dhammas and the fact/assumption of no first cause." .... S: In brief, I think we both can agree that ‘from an inconstruable beginning’ samsara continues on and that the Patthana contains a lot of intricate detail on conditional relations. ..... > I was surprised to learn that, yes, there is supposedly a book that > explains everything. To quote accesstoinsight.org: > ·Patthana ("The Book of Relations"). This book, by far the longest > single volume in the Tipitaka (over 6,000 pages long in the Siamese > edition), describes the 24 paccayas, or laws of conditionality, > through which the dhammas interact. These laws, when applied in every > possible permutation with the dhammas described in the Dhammasangani, > give rise to all knowable experience. .... S: Yes, it might make your Inland Revenue tome seem like light bedtime-reading, James. It starts of with a fairly simple and clear enumeration of the 24 Conditions and brief summary of these and then becomes increasingly complex. You asked about the teaching of so much detail by the Buddha. I think it’s very hard for us to have any inkling of the knowledge of the Buddha or even of Sariputta who could appreciate all this knowledge so easily. On the question of memorizing the detail, again we are referring to arahants with all the special powers who could memorize and recite until the details were written down in Sri Lanka. Monks were beginning to forget the details and hence the obvious need for this. At the First Council, I believe it took 9 months to rehearse the entire Tipitaka. I’m sure you question the purpose of these details and the applicability to life and development of wisdom. I can only stress that, just as we see on DSG, different people find it helpful to read different amounts and kinds of details. If one gets lost in the detail and it becomes just another academic subject, of course it’s quite useless. Similarly, if one doesn’t consider any detail at all, it’s dificult to see as elements those phenomena we’re used to taking for ‘wholes’ and concepts. We read this is the way to develop dispassion which as you reminded us, is so essential. I particularly liked your phrase "Dispassion is like the cooling mist that put out the flames because it is of the opposite nature." Ray gave a couple of sutta references using ‘dispassion’ too. Let me add them with a couple of comments linking them to elements and conditions: 1) From SN XII.31 "One sees with right discernment that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one is – through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance -- released from what has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one is -- through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance -- released from the nutriment by which it has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one is -- through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance -- released from what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a person who has fathomed the Dhamma. " ***** S: Comment: conditioned phenomena. As you wrote yesterday, passion (or craving) is the cause of dukkha. Developing dispassion or equanimity towards whatever is experienced is the way to release from dukkha. ***** 2. SN XXII.23 The Blessed One said, "And which are the phenomena to be comprehended? Form is a phenomenon to be comprehended. Feeling ... Perception ... Fabrications ... Consciousness is a phenomenon to be comprehended. These are called phenomena to be comprehended. "And which is comprehension? Any ending of passion, ending of aversion, ending of delusion. [1] This is called comprehension." ***** S: Comment: passion can only be attenuated and dispassion developed through comprehension of these phenomena, aka khandhas or ultimate realities. We don’t have to call them abhidhamma or refer to the Patthana, but comprehension or wisdom has to know these actualities as they are with no self anywhere to be found. Why does such a feeling or form or consciousness arise at this moment and not another? Is it really by wishing or a self controlling or is it by a complex set of conditions, one of which is kamma? ***** Ray gave other useful quotes and wrote: "Why does dependent origination not mean we are trapped in determinism? I think it is because there can be observation without an observer, decisions without a decider, for that means our actions, our thoughts this moment have a large impact on what happens the next."..... In addition, by understanding that there really are only elements arising and falling away, the futility of passion or clinging can be seen becomes a little more apparent. It has to begin with intellectual clear view. Wars, policies, responses and actions are merely "Form.... Feeling ... Perception ... Fabrications... Consciousness....These are called phenomena to be comprehended." ..... James, finally, in a recent post to Htoo, you said that the Buddha "did not teach things that only a select few with ‘panna’ could understand." I don’t want to argue over terms, but I believe he did refer to those with little dust in their eyes that could appreciate the truths. Repeatedly we read about how ‘deep’ and ‘hard to fathom’ they are. I don’t think it matters what terms we use -- and for some it’s a lot clearer to use Pali terms, but we appreciate for others like yourself that the reverse is true -- what is important is to help each other remove that dust and to continue sharing what we understand. I’ll be glad to hear any further comments you have on any of these issues or that second point about the body not yet tackled;-) Always glad to hear from you. Metta, Sarah ====== 19209 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentous occasion nr 2 Hi Herman. These are indeed 'Momentous Occasions'....I have noted a 'Visuddhi-what's-it' Momentous Occasion recently too and wondered if you realised you were quoting from a Commentary;-);-) I thought at the time I'd better not say anything unless the spell might be broken..... --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi all, > > It is almost becoming cliche, Herman is posting another sutta link :-) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-088.html > > This one is about Punna, who answers the Buddha's questions as to how > he will handle different levels of violence towards himself (upto and > including murder). > > The fact that I am quoting these does not mean I agree with their > position, or that I understand them, they are merely some things I > found re Buddhist conflict resolution ( which so far sounds pretty > much like "Whatever happens, do nothing with your body". .... I note the qualifying legalese, but like the way you give the link and a brief summary. It's good to see what you're finding too. Perhaps others will come in with comments....I'm out of time right now. .... > > Sarah, a slightly different topic, but I just love it when the star > kids call you Mrs Abbott. It makes you sound like you are in your > forties :-) .... The sad truth, Herman, is that very, very soon I'll be dreaming of when I was .....;-( Still pretty much a kid at heart though;-) Keep up the suttas....I'm following carefully..... In appreciation, Sarah ======= 19210 From: nidive Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Hi Htoo Naing, > Citta is a leader and Citta is the Leader. You are right! "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). THE COMMANDER OF THE FORTRESS STANDS FOR CONSCIOUSNESS. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html Just as the commander of the fortress is the leader of that very fortress, so is consciousness (cittas) the leader of this very fortress of existence. I like this Sutta very much. Is there any commentary on this Sutta? If anyone has it, please post. Thank you. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19211 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing > > > Hi Kom, > > Thanks for your reply. I forgot that volition is > a universal cetasika, > arising with every citta. I see that its function > is to accumulate. Does > that mean that every citta is accumulated and > becomes part of the > repository of accumulations that condition javana cittas? > As far I understand it, the accumulation (of states) is specific to Javana. You accumulates tendencies toward kusala or akusala states by way of the same kind of citta repeating in Javana 7 times. I don't think of the vipaka cittas as accumulating at all. It's not only volition that is accumulated. Other states create tendencies as well. If you are prone to anger because you experience something (and anger is obvious instead of volition being obvious), you are again prone to anger as a similar object is experienced in the future. Same thing with other akusala and kusala (including volition) states. How would you explain repository? How are all these accumulations stored? I think accumulations and habits are easier to understand. kom 19212 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] PHOTO NEWS + Re: Star Kids Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] PHOTO NEWS + Re: Star Kids > ... > > I > told him photos are rupa; that rupa is the > reality that does not > experience anything ... ergo, the kids' photos > would not be lonely > away from the parents' photos ... really, it's > O.K. Kom, you can > trust me on this! You are not splitting up > families! :-) >> > :-) It would be to my benefit if you reminds me often about nama and rupa. I don't think I can never have enough good friends in dhamma, or enough reminders. The journey is a long long one, and is easy for me to fall off the path. Appeciative, kom 19213 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Dear Larry & All, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 6:02 PM > > Way 42: [T] From the sort of mere awareness > denoted by reference to > canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a > soul, the perverted > perception, with the belief that there is a doer > and an experiencer. One > who does not uproot or remove that wrong > perception owing to > non-opposition to that perception and to absence > of contemplative > practice cannot be called one who develops > anything like a subject of > meditation. > What is meant by "non-opposition to that perception" and "contemplative practice"? kom 19214 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:26am Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Dear NSB, Thanks for your code for reference. It casts a good light on the present matter when a good example is available. I like that Sutta very much. As our lives are short,why not brush up that Leader. Thanks and With Due Respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > > Citta is a leader and Citta is the Leader. > > You are right! > > "I have given you this simile > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html > > Just as the commander of the fortress is the leader of that very > fortress, so is consciousness (cittas) the leader of this very > fortress of existence. > > I like this Sutta very much. Is there any commentary on this Sutta? > If anyone has it, please post. Thank you. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19215 From: bodhi342 Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Christine and all, Thanks for your response, and for defending Herman's point of view. Do you believe there is such a thing as rationalization? I do. I think it is a frequently invoked psychological mechanism to comfort us when inner conflict arises, which in turn occurs because we are not steadfastly in tune with the "..........." Therefore, we can rationalize infinite reasons to treat a threat to our own child in one way, and that to the anonymous child another. How many parents do you know, when faced with imminent (say weeks away) danger of death of their own child from a governmental action, will be satisfied with just writing to a politician? Even their demeanor to that politician would be more respectful, one could speculate. There would be a sense of desperation, even panic at the loss. We would not expect just sending a detached, possibly angry message, then shrugging our shoulders and saying, "Did the best under the circumstances, John Howard did not listen to me, he is to blame!" This despite having the time to plan and execute 'valid' intervention that has a chance of saving even one of the lives. How many people go and try to compassionately understand the causes that lead to any war? How many Australians would try to compassionately persuade against war by traveling to Canberra, or by traveling to Baghdad? Are these options not possibilities for action, in this day and age of fast and easy travel? My point here is that we automatically prioritize our energy and action, but not our righteousness, because expression of the latter is free! Is intention for peace sufficient in and of itself? Are our consciences so easily mollified? Buddhism offers a wise, wise alternative. Dispassion, considering that everything worldly is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta. Whether one interprets that as leading to right action or no action is dependant on conditions, I presume. Further, the dhamma would not differentiate between being killed by a western bomb to that of being killed by a dagger, or a landslide, or starvation elsewhere. Nor would it prioritize the death of your child as opposed to someone else's. Why then, should we? Yet how many practice what they talk about so much? The Ven. Punna did (please see Herman's link today)! Buddhist attitude is also commendable for its consistency. It cannot be broken down by logical argument, as is the case with so many of the secular worldviews. It is a treasure amongst treasures that is underutilized. I speculate it is underutilized because we are easily deluded with rationalization (hypocrisy is a harsher word). This issue is brought to the fore because of the ongoing dialogue about war. It occurs, that the only ways war can be eventually ended is either destruction of all the participants of war - (Armageddon); or the active participation of those whose very essence radiates tolerance, peace and dispassion. Christine, please understand that I am not judging anyone or recommending any specific action. I am just trying to probe apparent inconsistencies to better understand the gap between rhetoric and practice. metta, dharam 19216 From: James Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > A few rambling thoughts below...... Hi Sarah, Thank you for the post. You have written many things that I agree with and a few things that I believe are wishful thinking. I don't see the need to say more. Looking at my thoughts and motivations with dispassion and mindfulness, I don't see a reason to say more. I have reached my conclusions about the Abhidhamma, have enumerated them enough, and anything else would be conceit. In the future, I will try to keep an eye out for non-Abhidhamma posts and threads and participate in those. Yes, replying to the Star Kids is very difficult because they ask the most basic questions. I don't reply to their letters right away, like other posts, so let them know to have patience (something kids rarely have ;-). I have also been enjoying the replies from the other members like Christine and Kom. I am seeing a side of Kom I didn't know existed! ;-) Take care, James ps. I smiled about the member who described the Star Kids as viruses. Ironic because he's right, they are viruses...but so are we all. 19217 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:06am Subject: intimation through body and speech, no 5 intimation through body and speech, no 5 The ³Visuddhimagga² (XVIII, 31) uses a simile of a marionette in order to illustrate that there is no being in the ultimate sense, only conditioned phenomena. We read: Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: ³ The mental and material are really here, ³ But here there is no human being to be found, ³For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll-- ³ Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks. When one sees a performance with marionettes, it seems that the puppets have lives of their own: they exert themselves, they are absorbed, attached or full of hatred and sorrow, and one can laugh and cry because of the story that is being enacted. However, the puppets are only wood and strings, held by men who make them act. When one sees how the puppets are stored after the play they are not impressive anymore, only pieces of wood and strings. When we study the Abhidhamma it helps us to understand more that this marionette we call ³self² can move about, act and speak because of the appropriate conditions. As we have seen in the definitions of the two kinds of intimation by the ŒDhammasangani² (§ 636, 637), these two kinds of rúpa can be conditioned by kusala citta, akusala citta or ³inoperative² citta (kiriyacitta). When we realize that intimation through body and speech is very often conditioned by akusala citta, we come to see the danger of being forgetful of nåma and rúpa while we make gestures and speak. Then we are urged to remember the Buddha¹s words as to the practice of ³clear comprehension² (sampajañña) in the ³Satipatthåna Sutta² (Middle Length Sayings no. 10, in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, dealing with the four kinds of clear comprehension [5] ) : And further, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension. Footnote: 5. See the translation in ³The Way of Mindfulness² by Ven. Soma. The end. 19218 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. Dear Dharam and Azita, I delay my answers to Emails because I do not like to answer on the spur of the moment. Like your questions, they deserve attention. (Sorry, friends, I still have to delay answers to other mails, but it is all in my file.) op 26-01-2003 02:18 schreef bodhi342 op bodhi342@y...: > Thank you for the reference - will try to find it. By the title, it > seems to suggest that indeed dukkha is a supporting (necessary?) > condition for faith. Nina: Yes, it is more than just a stimulant or a medicine. As mentioned before, we should note the three kinds of dukkha:1. dukkha-dukkha, pain and unpleasant feeling which are obvious. 2. Dukkha as change, separation from what is desired. 3. Dukkha as the unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned realities which are impermanent and not worth clinging to. The third one is subtle and difficult to see. It is the understanding of this dukkha that can bring about a beginning of the reversal of the chain of the dependent origination. Let us first consider the Bodhisatta, when he encountered dukkha. We had discussions before on the subject, and I shall partly quote from old posts. When the Buddha was the Bodhisatta Sumedha, he saw: ³Even as evil exists, loveliness exists too, so as birth exists, the unborn also is to be desired. Even as a man fallen into filth, though seeing a brimming pool does not seek that pool, that is not a defect in the pool. So, though the pool of the Undying exists for the washing away the stains of the defilements, if one does not seek that pool, the defect is not in the pool of the Undying.² (Chronicle of the Buddhas IIA, Account of Sumedha) Thus, he understood that there must also be an end to rebirth and an end to defilements. We can consider what the Bodhisatta realized when he saw in the royal park an old person, a sick person and a dead person. We read about this in the "Sublime Story"(D III, 14) the story of the Bodhisatta Vipassi which is the same for all Bodhisattas. It is so simple and impressive (and more direct in Pali, Warder lesson 24, Jaran!). He asked the charioteer: <"What, good charioteer, is ending one's days?" "It means, my lord, that neither mother, nor father, nor other kinsfolk will see him any more, nor will he ever again see them." "But am I too then subject to death, have I not got beyond the reach of death? Will neither the raja, nor the ranee, nor any other of my kin see me more, or I ever again see them?"> The charioteer then answered that we are all subject to death. We may begin to see more the disadvantage of being subject to birth, old age and death. The cycle is conditioned by ignorance and clinging. We may understand the danger of ignorance and clinging and that nibbana is the end of all defilements, although we do not know this through direct experience. And wrong view of self should be eradicated first. It is so persistent. Acharn Sujin stressed again that there are three rounds of understanding the four noble Truths: sacca ñåna, which is the understanding of the truth (sacca meaning truth), kicca ñåna, which is the practice of right mindfulness of nåma and rúpa (kicca meaning function) and kata ñåna, the realization of the truth (kata meaning, it has been done). As to the first round, sacca ñåna, this is the firm understanding of what is dukkha: the objects appearing at this moment. They are impermanent and thus they are unsatisfactory. We may ask ourselves why sati does not arise more frequently. The reason is, that sacca ñåna is not yet firm enough, it is not well established so that it can condition kicca ñåna, the direct awareness of one nåma or rúpa at a time. Sacca ñåna is firm understanding of the truth and the right Path, so that one does not deviate from the right Path. Hardness, seeing, visible object appear all the time in daily life, but we are still ignorant of it. > Nina: Life is only one moment of experiencing an object. Life is > seeing, or hearing, etc. Do we want to stop seeing, thus, to stop > life now? Answer from > most people: No. > > D: Yes, I think that would indeed be the answer. > > However, the eye is dukkha, seeing is dukkha, the feelings which > arise on account of what is seen are dukkha. What are the > implications of this choice of continuing to see? Craving to see? > Attachment to both seeing and the object of sight? N:Attachment to all realities, not seeing their impermanence, their nature of dukkha. Ignorance blinds us. Dh: Would not-seeing or blindness aid in understanding to some extent? N: No, not at all. We also read in the Sutta that someone said to the Buddha: if I would be blind, deaf, asleep, it would be better for me. This is not the way. Objects impinge all the time, they should be known as they are: impermanent, dukkha, non-self. Dh: What is our state during sleep, when there may be a significant drop > off in namas: seeing, hearing etc. N: Sleep is not helpful, no opportunity to develop right understanding. That is why the Buddha said to the monks: don't be attached to sleep. Everybody can apply this in his own situation, no need to force oneself. > Dh: Related: is someone blind therefore partially or fully dead? (I ask > this in the conventional sense, which I think you were referring to, > not in terms of Anicca). N: Are you referring to A. Sujin's question above? I do not quite understand. She stressed especially what life is: one moment only, be it seeing, hearing or any other experience. Someone who is blind still has the other sense organs, and mind-door processes. He can develop right understanding of all that normally appears in his life. Dh: I hope you do not mind these questions which arise from a stimulating > response. [I feel like Vacchagotta :-) !] N: I am glad you are on this list and like your probing questions. This morning I heard on tape that A. Sujin said: the practice is not a set time, apart from the moment of understanding. Life is this moment of seeing or hearing. We do not have to delay and go to some place first. Then we lose precious moments of developing understanding. But we have to reflect on what we hear, it can only sink in slowly. Now and then I stop the tape, and I really have to consider what I heard, even though I have listened for a long time. But what we heard for years can gradually become more meaningful, I find. To Azita: I like your post with wise observations: even the famous 'patience, courage and good cheer' is 'not me, not mine, not my self'.> Nina: Gradually we discover lobha that is more subtle, our hidden motives we did not know before, and how glad I am also A. Sujin points this out all the time. I am especially impressed all the time and this time even more by:< life is in this moment.> Helps us not to see things as static. As I remarked to Larry while reading the Way, there is the word meditator, yogavacara all the time. it was explained by A. Supee: this is the *citta* that develops panna, but explained under the aspect of teaching by way of person (puggala desana). Now, even this we may take in a theoretical way: the Buddha taught by way of convention, vohara or by way of ultimate realities. This can still be like theory, it may not be very meaningful. But, as soon as we understand: life is in a moment, meditation is in a moment, this explanation becomes very meaningful, not theoretical at all. It helps us to see that understanding can be developed in a moment. What else is there but the present moment to develop understanding? Yogavacara, it can really have an impact on us. A reminder not to be neglectful. Nina. 19219 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:06am Subject: Perfections Ch 7, Patience, no 19 Perfections Ch 7, Patience, no 19 The Buddha did not teach Dhamma only to monks, but also to all his followers who developed paññå. He taught Dhamma so that one can see that the truth is the truth: someone who is dear, pleasant, respected and who should be praised is a person who can endure visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes and touches. Some people do not consider and think of patience and endurance, they have not accumulated patience. We can see the danger of impatience when someone who is happy himself and without trouble, cannot stand another person¹s happiness. Someone who has accumulated a great deal of impatience cannot bear even another person¹s happiness. We read in the Commentary to the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, §5, ³Begrudging² (macharí) [23] about the five kinds of avarice (macchariya) of a miser: With regard to avarice as to dwelling (åvåsa), he cannot bear to see someone else in that dwelling, with regard to avarice as to family (kula), he cannot bear to see someone else visiting that family, with regard to avarice as to gain (låbha), he cannot bear someone else to obtain something, with regard to avarice as to praise (vanna), he cannot bear that people praise the good qualities of others, with regard to avarice as to Dhamma, he does not want to explain the theory of the Dhamma to someone else. This shows the importance of patience. If sati arises which is non-forgetful of kusala, one is able to have endurance. We should know what the Scriptures say about the excellence of patience and the disadvantage of impatience. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings² (III), Book of the Fives, Ch XXII, § 5, Impatience, that the Buddha said: Monks, there are these five disadvantages from being impatient. What five? Not to many folk he is dear and pleasing; he is full of malevolence; there is much harm for him; he dies muddled in thought and rises in unhappy planes, such as hell planes. Monks, these are the five disadvantages from being impatient. It is true that someone who is impatient is not dear and pleasing to many people, that he has much malevolence. When one is irritated because of an unpleasant experience, he should know that accumulated inclinations are the conditions for being bad-tempered and often having aversion, more than a person who is patient. For someone who is impatient there is much harm, because he will receive the harmful effect of his own akusala. Someone else cannot harm that person, only his own defilements are the cause of harm for him, and moreover, he will die muddled in thought. If someone is often impatient and overcome by anger, this can also happen when he is near death. When anger, pain or strong dislike arise, one is likely to be impatient, and at that moment he follows the inclination to akusala. Everybody has to leave this world, and when the citta is impure just before dying, it is the condition for rebirth in an unhappy plane such as hell. This is a danger much more fearsome than dangers in this world. Footnote: 23. Machariya is avarice. There are five kinds explained in the Scriptures: avarice concerning dwelling (åvasa), family (kula), that is the family which gives requisites to a monk, gain (låbha), the requisites he receives, praise (vanna) and Dhamma. 19220 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical View vs. Scientific View (a big post) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Larry > > Sati does not perceive, it is sanna that perceives. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear KC,Larry and Dhamma, Now I pull the old thread.What I would like to add is that sanna cannot perceive as well.It is Citta who perceive fully everything.Sati,Sanna,vedana and all other cetasikas cannot perceive and perception is not their function. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19221 From: Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Way 43, Comm, Deportment "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Modes of Deportment, p.55 In the elucidation of these questions the following is said: Who goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity. Because of that this yogi knows thus: If there arises the thought, "I shall go," that thought produces the process of oscillation; the process of oscillation produces expression (the bodily movement which indicates going and so forth). The moving on of the whole body through the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called going. The same is the method of exposition as regards the other postures: standing and so forth. There, too, the yogi knows thus: If there arises the thought, "I shall stand," that thought produces the process of oscillation. The process of oscillation produces bodily expression. The raising upright of the whole body from below owing to the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called standing. If there arises the thought "I shall sit," that thought produces the process of oscillation. The process of oscillation produces bodily expression. The bending of the lower part of the body and the raising upright of the upper part of the body owing to the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called sitting. If there arises the thought, "I shall lie down," that thought produces the process of oscillation. The process of oscillation produces bodily expression. The straightening or the spreading of the whole body horizontally or across, owing to the diffusion of the process of oscillation, is called lying down. [Tika] There, "who goes?" is a doer-question of the action of going, without first separating efficient cause and action (tattha ko gacchatiti sadhanam kriyañca avinibbhutam katva gamana kriya kattu puccha]. That is for indicating just the bare phenomenon of going, through the condition of denying the-doer-state-endowed-with-a-soul [sa kattubhava visittha atta patikkhepatta dhamma mattasseva gamana dassanato]. (Or in other words the question "Who goes?" anticipates a negative answer, for according to the Abhidhamma there is no doer or goer but just a process dependent on conditions. There is merely a going. No one goes.) [T] With the words, "whose going is it?", the commentator says the same thing in another way after separating efficient cause and action for making clear the absence of a doer-connection [kassa gamananti tamevattham pariyayantarena vadati sadhanam kriyañca akattu sambandhi bhava vibhavanato]. [T] "On what account is it?" This is a question for the real reason of the action of going from which the idea of a goer is rejected. [kim karanati pana patikkhitta kattukaya gamana kriyaya aviparita karana puccha]. 19222 From: Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Way 42: One who does not uproot or remove that wrong perception ["idea of a soul"] owing to non-opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject of meditation. Kom: What is meant by "non-opposition to that perception" and "contemplative practice"? ------------ Hi Kom, In order to uproot the idea of a soul or person, one must be mindful of the reality of body, feeling, mind, and dhamma when they arise in experience and contemplate their characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and not self. Experiencing these characteristics in these objects is the actual uprooting. What would you say? Larry 19223 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Hi Swee Boon (NEO!), You wrote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html Neo: "Just as the commander of the fortress is the leader of that very fortress, so is consciousness (cittas) the leader of this very fortress of existence. I like this Sutta very much. Is there any commentary on this Sutta? If anyone has it, please post. Thank you." ..... S: I find it useful too and am appreciating the points you are making. I thought I had read this sutta with more notes in one of the commentaries like the Atthasalini, but I can’t find it. In a previous post I typed out part of it (see end of post as some of the terms used in the translation are a little different) from B.Bodhi’s translation. Let me add a few commentary notes he gives which may be relevant to your discussions: Note 207,page 1428 "Spk (Commentary to SN): Why is this introduced? If that bhikkhu understood (the meaning being conveyed by the ki.msuka simile), then it is introduced to teach him the Dhamma. If he did not understand, this simile of the city is introduced to explain and clarify the meaning. Again, Spk gives a much more elaborate version of the simile and its application. In brief: The lord of the city is a prince, son of a virtuous world monarch, who had been appointed by his father to administer one of the outlying provinces. Under the influence of bad friends the prince had become dissolute and passed his time drinking liquor and enjoying music and dance. The king sent the two mesengers to admonish the prince to abandon his heedless ways and resume his duties. One messenger is a brave warrior (representing the samatha meditation subject), the other a wise minister (representing the vipassana meditation subject). The brave warrior grabs hold of the wayward prince by the head and threatens to decapitate him if he doesn’t change his ways: this is like the time the mind has been grabbed and made motionless by the concentration arisen through the first jhana. The fleeing of the prince’s dissolute friends is like the disappearance of the five hindrances when the first jhana has arisen. When the prince agrees to follow the king’s command, this is like the time the meditator has emerged from jhana. When the minister delivers the king’s command, this is like the time when the meditator, with his mind pliable through concentration, develops insight meditation. When the two messengers raise up the white canopy over the prince after he has been coronated, this is like the time the white canopy of liberation is raised over the meditator after he has attained arahantship by means of serenity and insight. ..... Note 209 "Spk identifies this as the insight-mind (vipassanaacitta, which is the prince to be coronated with the coronation of arahantship by the two messengers, serenity and insight. ..... Note 210 "Spk: Nibbana is called the "message of reality" (yathaabhuuta.m vacana.m) because in its real nature it is unshakable and immutable (yathaabuutasabhaava.m akuppa.m avikaari). ***** Hope this helps. Sarah ====== B.Bodhi transl SN 1V, Salayatanavagga, 194: 'Suppose, bhikkhu, a king had a frontier city with strong ramparts, walls, and arches, and with six gates. The gatekeeper posted there would be wise, competent, and intelligent; one who keeps out strangers and admits acquaintances. A swift pair of messengers would come from the east and ask the gatekeeper: 'Where, good man, is the lord of this city?' He would reply: 'He is sitting in the central square.' Then the swift pair of messengers would deliver a message of reality to the lord of the city and leave by the route by which they had arrived. Similarly, messengers would come from the west, from the north, from the south, deliver their message, and leave by the route by which they had arrived. "I have made up this simile, bhikkkhu, in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning here: ‘The city’: this is a designation for this body consisting of the four great elements....’The six gates’: this is a designation for the six internal bases. "The gatekeeper’: this is a designation for mindfulness. ‘The swift pair of messengers’: this is a designation for serenity and insight (vipassana). ‘The lord of the city’: this is a designation for consciousness. ‘The cenral square’: this is a designation for the four great elements .....’A message of reality’: this is a designation for Nibbana. ‘The route by which they had arrived’: this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view....right concentration." ======================================= 19224 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Frank, --- Frank Kuan wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > I appreciate your thoughts on aloneness. When I was > going to school, there were students who could work 20 > hours a week, juggle relationships and all kinds of > committments, and still excel in their studies. .... .....and I’ve never been one of them;-) ..... >My hat > off to them and off to you if you find your lifestyle > affords you as much progress in the dhamma as the more > typical success stories in the suttas. ..... .....nor a sutta ‘typical success story’;-) I hope I’ve never given that impression in either of these regards. ..... > As far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of people > who have made major strides in their field, whether > worldly or unworldly, benefit from large chunks of > seclusion. > seclusion doesn't guarantee success, and has it's > difficulties as you pointed out. Just like dedicating > two hours to doing homework doesn't guarantee the > homework is going to get done or get done well. But > all else being equal, I'd say the best opportunity to > do the homework well is in seclusion than in the > company of television, friends, kids, pets, and other > distractions. And this is regardless of whether I'm a > layperson, married, ordained, whatever. ..... I certainly agree about the ‘homework in seclusion’ though some of the kids assure me they do better with the ‘television, friends, kids, pets, and other distractions’ (a little rationalization here perhaps...;-)). Certainly also for concentrated tasks - whether it be my yoga, tai chi, writing posts or office work, I find I need a fair degree of ‘seclusion’ -- to which there is a lot of attachment as well, apparent when it's 'disturbed'--, so we’re agreed up to here. When it comes to the development of satipatthana, however, I believe the picture is quite different and not determined by greater or lesser solitude. The important conditions are those which lead to the development of right understanding of realities such as listening to the good friends, considering and intellectually understanding what these realities are in the first place. I don’t doubt what you say when you remark "We all have to choose our own path. The more I practice, the more solitude I find to be necessary." I think it just depends on what one’s path and goal is. As Sukin said: "If there is understanding at this moment, does one feel propelled to *do* anything (with regard to developing sati and panna)? Even if there is confusion and restlessness, it is just that, even this knowledge is good enough for the moment. Certainly we should not be pushed to seek a quiet surrounding with the idea that sati will arise if we could just sit down and watch the breath or something. When one understands, even in theory, about the complexity of conditions and the not-self nature of it, then one does not presume that any particular thing can be done to cause sati to arise." ***** Nina (in her series of translations on ‘Dhamma Issues’ just quoted the following extract which always reminds me of just how very applicable in daily life the development of satipatthana is: Nina: Satipatthåna Sutta (Middle Length Sayings no. 10, in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, dealing with the four kinds of clear comprehension: And further, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension." ***** Frank, I know I’ve quoted more than enough from texts and other posts and yet I’m going to sign off by quoting from an early post of Jon’s (no 460): Jon: "Granted there are many references to solitude and sitting at the roots of trees etc. But a skilful reading of the whole Tripitika shows clearly that the Buddha urged his listeners, both monks and laypeople, to develop the path in the course of the life they were living from day to day. He did not urge them to set aside time from their daily routine for practice, nor did he nominate any special time or place of practice as being prime time for the development of the path. Implicit in the Buddha’s teaching is the potential for awareness at some evel of the reality arising at the present moment, without the need for a particular form of practice. If one understands the teachings in this light, one’s experience is bound to be wholly different from that you have given. And one of the most important differences is the absence of any idea of being able to make awareness arise by undertaking a certain form of practice. It is understanding the conditions for the arising of awareness at a time not of one’s own choosing that is the key to the development of the path." ***** Frank, I apologise if I’ve over-quoted here and I know there are many comments which you won't agree with . Always good to hear your reflections and never any hurry as far as I’m concerned for any response. Metta, Sarah ===== 19225 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Hi James (& A.Paul at the end), --- "James " wrote: >...... Looking at my thoughts and motivations > with dispassion and mindfulness, I don't see a reason to say more. > I have reached my conclusions about the Abhidhamma, have enumerated > them enough, and anything else would be conceit. In the future, I > will try to keep an eye out for non-Abhidhamma posts and threads and > participate in those. .... Understood and I appreciate your recent sentiments and expressions of restraint and dispassion;-) ..... > Yes, replying to the Star Kids is very difficult because they ask > the most basic questions. I don't reply to their letters right > away, like other posts, so let them know to have patience (something > kids rarely have ;-). ..... Whatever they say, there’s never any hurry as there’s always quite a time lag before I see them and show them posts (which isn’t every week by any means). Of course they'd love to meet you if you visit Hong Kong and they're around. ..... >I have also been enjoying the replies from > the other members like Christine and Kom. I am seeing a side of Kom > I didn't know existed! ;-) ..... I know - some lay it all out in the first post and others keep plenty of wit and profundity up their sleeves;-) Btw, James, do you or anyone else have any Buddhist books (preferably Theravada ones) you can recommend for me to buy for the Star Kids? If they’re easy to order, that would be an advantage as I seldom go shopping. Some read adult books, but still, it has to be appealingly presented for them. That reminds me, another member asked me off-list to recommend a book for a complete beginner as a present. Perhaps I can pass this queery to you and others as well as I don’t have much idea of what’s available apart from the Tipitaka texts themselves. ..... > ps. I smiled about the member who described the Star Kids as > viruses. Ironic because he's right, they are viruses...but so are > we all. ..... Hmmm. Metta, Virus Sarah p.s A.Paul - On the subject of books, Rob M asked us to let you know that he has a Chinese version of Abhidamattha Sangaha for you when we next meet. When you visit the bookshop in Mong Kok, perhaps you could also write down any titles of books that are suitable for children or young teenagers for me too(preferably Theravada). ========== 19226 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentous occasion nr 2 Herman Thanks for posting this and the previous sutta, both of which are relevant to the thread about war and violence. I believe they show that one who is without defilements would not be capable of any unwholesome action through body, speech or mind. Here's another snippet (mentioned in the commentary to the Honeyball Sutta): "Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world; rather, it is the world that disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma does not dispute with anyone in the world." SN XXII, 94 There is also the well-known Simile of the Saw Sutta, which ends with the passage: "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?" "No, lord." "Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn021.html Actually, the beginning part of that sutta (not included in the ATI translation) is also interesting and relevant. It describes how a monk, Phagguna, was "associating so much with bhikkhunis that if any bhikkhu spoke in dispraise of those bhikkhunis in his presence, he would become angry and displeased and would rebuke him". He was admonished to "abandon any desires and any thoughts based on the household life", so that if anyone should speak in dispraise of the bhikkhunis, or should even assault them, or should assault himself, he should train himself to be unaffected by that, to utter no evil words, to dwell without inner hate. MN 21 Jon --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi all, > > It is almost becoming cliche, Herman is posting another sutta link > :-) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-088.html > > This one is about Punna, who answers the Buddha's questions as to > how > he will handle different levels of violence towards himself (upto > and > including murder). 19227 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 6:01am Subject: The Language of the Heart http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/boowa/straight.html The Language of the Heart The Venerable Acariya Mun taught that all hearts have the same language. No matter what one's language or nationality, the heart has nothing but simple awareness, which is why he said that all hearts have the same language. When a thought arises, we understand it, but when we put it into words, it has to become this or that language, so that we don't really understand one another. The feelings within the heart, though, are the same for everyone. This is why the Dhamma fits the heart perfectly, because the Dhamma isn't any particular language. The Dhamma is the language of the heart. The Dhamma resides with the heart. Pleasure and pain reside with the heart. The acts that create pleasure and pain are thought up by the heart. The heart is what knows the results that appear as pleasure and pain; and the heart is burdened with the outcome of its own thoughts. This is why the heart and the Dhamma fit perfectly. No matter what our language or nationality, we can all understand the Dhamma because the heart and the Dhamma are a natural pair. The heart forms the core within the body. It's the core, the substance, the primary essence within the body. It's the basic foundation. The conditions that arise from the mind, such as thought-formations, appear and vanish, again and again. Here I'm referring to the rippling of the mind. When the mind ripples, that's the formation of a thought. Labels, which deal with conjecturing, memorizing, and recognizing, are termed sañña. 'Long' thoughts are sañña; short thoughts are sankhara. In other words, when a thought forms -- 'blip' -- that's a sankhara. Sañña refers to labeling and recognizing. Viññana refers to the act of taking note when anything external comes and makes contact with the senses, as when visible forms make contact with the eye and cognition results. All of these things are constantly arising and vanishing of their own accord, and so the Buddha called them khandhas. Each 'heap' or 'group' is called a khandha. These five heaps of khandhas are constantly arising and vanishing all the time. Even arahants have these same conditions -- just like ordinary people everywhere -- the only difference being that the arahants' khandhas are khandhas pure and simple, without any defilements giving them orders, making them do this or think that. Instead, their khandhas think out of their own free nature, with nothing forcing them to think this or that, unlike the minds of ordinary people in general. To make a comparison, the khandhas of ordinary people are like prisoners, constantly being ordered about. Their various thoughts, labels, assumptions, and interpretations have something that orders and forces them to appear, making them think, assume, and interpret in this way or that. In other words, they have defilements as their boss, their leader, ordering them to appear. Arahants, however, don't. When a thought forms, it simply forms. Once it forms, it simply disappears. There's no seed to continue it, no seed to weigh the mind down, because there's nothing to force it, unlike the khandhas governed by defilements or under the leadership of defilements. This is where the difference lies. But their basic nature is the same: All the khandhas we have mentioned are inconstant (aniccam). In other words, instability and changeability are a regular part of their nature, beginning with the rupa khandha, our body, and the vedana khandha, feelings of pleasure, pain, and indifference. These things appear and vanish, again and again. Sañña, sankhara, and viññana are also always in a state of appearing and vanishing as a normal part of their nature. But as for actual awareness -- which forms the basis of our knowledge of the various things that arise and vanish -- that doesn't vanish. We can say that the mind can't vanish. We can say that the mind can't arise. A mind that has been purified thus has no more problems concerning the birth and death of the body and the khandhas; and thus there is no more birth here and there, appearing in crude forms such as individuals or as living beings, for those whose minds have been purified. But those whose minds are not purified: They are the ones who take birth and die, setting their sights on cemeteries without end, all because of this undying mind. This is why the Lord Buddha taught the world, and in particular the world of human beings, who know right and wrong, good and evil; who know how to foster the one and remedy the other; who understand the language of the Dhamma he taught. This is why he taught the human world above and beyond the other worlds: so that we could try to remedy the things that are harmful and detrimental, removing them from our thoughts, words, and deeds; try to nourish and foster whatever goodness we might already have, and give rise to whatever goodness we don't yet have. He taught us to foster and develop the goodness we already have so as to nourish the heart, giving it refreshment and well-being, giving it a standard of quality, or goodness, so that when it leaves its present body to head for whatever place or level of being, this mind that has been constantly nourished with goodness will be a good mind. Wherever it fares, it will fare well. Wherever it takes birth, it will be born well. Wherever it lives, it will live well. It will keep on experiencing well-being and happiness until it gains the capacity, the potential, the accumulation of merit it has developed progressively from the past into the present -- in other words, yesterday is today's past, today is tomorrow's past, all of which are days in which we have fostered and developed goodness step by step -- to the point where the mind has the firm strength and ability, from the supporting power of this goodness, that enables it to pass over and gain release. Such a mind has no more birth, not even in the most quiet or refined levels of being that contain any latent traces of conventional reality (sammati) -- namely, birth and death as we currently experience it. Such a mind goes completely beyond all such things. Here I'm referring to the minds of the Buddhas and of the arahants. There's a story about Ven. Vangisa that has a bearing on this. Ven. Vangisa, when he was a layman, was very talented in divining the level of being in which the mind of a dead person was reborn -- no matter who the person was. You couldn't quite say he was a fortuneteller. Actually he was more a master of psychic skills. When anyone died, he would take that person's skull and knock on it -- knock! knock! knock! -- focus his mind, and then know that this person was reborn there, that person was reborn here. If the person was reborn in hell or in heaven, as a common animal or a hungry ghost, he could tell in every case, without any hesitation. All he needed was to knock on the skull. When he heard his friends say that the Buddha was many times more talented than this, he wanted to expand on his knowledge. So he went to the Buddha's presence to ask for further training in this science. When he reached the Buddha, the Buddha gave him the skull of an arahant to knock on. 'All right, see if you can tell where he was reborn.' Ven. Vangisa knocked on the skull and listened. Silence. He knocked again and listened. Silence. He thought for a moment. Silence. He focused his mind. Silence. He couldn't see where the owner of the skull was reborn. At his wit's end, he confessed frankly that he didn't know where the arahant was reborn. At first, Ven. Vangisa had thought himself talented and smart, and had planned to challenge the Buddha before asking for further training. But when he reached the Buddha, the Buddha gave him the skull of an arahant to knock on -- and right there he was stymied. So now he genuinely wanted further training. Once he had further training, he'd really be something special. This being the way things stood, he asked to study with the Buddha. So the Buddha taught him the science, taught him the method -- in other words, the science of the Dhamma. Ven. Vangisa practiced and practiced until finally he attained arahantship. From then on he was no longer interested in knocking on anyone's skull except for his own. Once he had known clearly, that was the end of the matter. This is called 'knocking on the right skull.' Once the Buddha had brought up the topic of the mind that doesn't experience rebirth -- the skull of one whose mind was purified -- no matter how many times Ven. Vangisa knocked on it, he couldn't know where the mind was reborn, even though he had been very talented before, for the place of a pure mind's rebirth cannot be found. The same was true in the case of Ven. Godhika: This story should serve as quite some food for thought. Ven. Godhika went to practice meditation, made progress step by step, but then regressed. They say this happened six times. After the seventh time, he took a razor to slash his throat -- he was so depressed -- but then came to his senses, contemplated the Dhamma, and became an arahant at the last minute. That's the story in brief. When he died, Mara's hordes searched for his spirit. To put it simply, they stirred up a storm, but couldn't tell where he had been reborn. So the Lord Buddha said, 'No matter how much you dig or search or investigate to find the spirit of our son, Godhika, who has completely finished his task, you won't be able to find it -- even if you turn the world upside down -- because such a task lies beyond the scope of conventional reality.' How could they possibly find it? It's beyond the capacity of people with defilements to know the power of an arahant's mind. In the realm of convention, there is no one who can trace the path of an arahant's mind, because an arahant lies beyond convention, even though his is a mind just the same. Think about it: Even our stumbling and crawling mind, when it is continually cleansed without stop, without ceasing, without letting perseverance lag, will gradually become more and more refined until it reaches the limit of refinement. Then the refinement will disappear -- because refinement is a matter of conventional reality -- leaving a nature of solid gold, or solid Dhamma, called a pure mind. We too will then have no more problems, just like the arahants, because our mind will have become a superlative mind, just like the minds of those who have already gained release. All minds of this sort are the same, with no distinction between women and men, which is simply a matter of sex or convention. With the mind, there is no distinction between women and men, and thus both women and men have the same capacity in the area of the Dhamma. Both are capable of attaining the various levels of Dhamma all the way to release. There are no restrictions that can be imposed in this area. All that is needed is that we develop enough ability and potential, and then we can all go beyond. For this reason, we should all make an effort to train our hearts and minds. At the very least, we should get the mind to attain stillness and peace with any of the meditation themes that can lull it into a state of calm, giving rise to peace and well-being within it. For example, mindfulness of breathing, which is one of the primary themes in meditation circles, seems to suit the temperaments of more people than any other theme. But whatever the theme, take it as a governing principle, a refuge, a mainstay for the mind, putting it into practice within your own mind so as to attain rest and peace. When the mind begins to settle down, we will begin to see its essential nature and worth. We will begin to see what the heart is and how it is. In other words, when the mind gathers all of its currents into a single point, as simple awareness within itself, this is what is called the 'mind' (citta). The gathering in of the mind occurs on different levels, corresponding to the mind's ability and to the different stages of its refinement. Even if the mind is still on a crude level, we can nevertheless know it when it gathers inwardly. When the mind becomes more and more refined, we will know its refinement -- 'This mind is refined... This mind is radiant... This mind is extremely still... This mind is something extremely amazing' -- more and more, step by step, this very same mind! In cleansing and training the mind for the sake of stillness; in investigating, probing, and solving the problems of the mind with discernment (pañña) -- which is the way of making the mind progress, or of enabling us to reach the truth of the mind, step by step, through the means already mentioned -- no matter how crude the mind may be, don't worry about it. If we get down to making the effort and persevere continually with what diligence and persistence we have, that crudeness will gradually fade away and vanish. Refinement will gradually appear through our own actions or our own striving until we are able to go beyond and gain release by slashing the defilements to bits. This holds true for all of us, men and women alike. But while we aren't yet able to do so, we shouldn't be anxious. All that is asked is that we make the mind principled so that it can be a refuge and a mainstay for itself. As for this body, we've been relying on it ever since the day we were born. This is something we all can know. We've made it live, lie down, urinate, defecate, work, make a living. We've used it, and it has used us. We order it around, and it orders us around. For instance, we've made it work, and it has made us suffer with aches here and pains there, so that we have to search for medicine to treat it. It's the one that hurts, and it's the one that searches for medicine. It's the one that provides the means. And so we keep supporting each other back and forth in this way. It's hard to tell who is in charge, the body or us. We can order it around part of the time, but it orders us around all the time. Illness, hunger, thirst, sleepiness: These are all nothing but a heap of suffering and stress in which the body orders us around, and orders us from every side. We can order it around only a little bit, so when the time is right for us to give the orders, we should make it meditate. So. Get to work. As long as the body is functioning normally, then no matter how much or how heavy the work, get right to it. But if the body isn't functioning normally, if you're ill, you need to be conscious of what it can take. As for the mind, though, keep up the effort within, unflaggingly, because it's your essential duty. You've depended on the body for a long time. Now that it's wearing down, know that it's wearing down -- which parts still work, which parts no longer work. You're the one in charge and you know it full well, so make whatever compromises you should. But as for the heart, which isn't ill along with the body, it should step up its efforts within, so that it won't lack the benefits it should gain. Make the mind have standards and be principled -- principled in its living, principled in its dying. Wherever it's born, make it have good principles and satisfactory standards. What they call 'merit' (puñña) won't betray your hopes or expectations. It will provide you with satisfactory circumstances at all times, in keeping with the fact that you've accumulated the merit -- the well-being -- that all the world wants and of which no one has enough. In other words, what the world wants is well-being, whatever the sort, and in particular the well-being of the mind that will arise step by step from having done things, such as meditation, which are noble and good. This is the well-being that forms a core or an important essence within the heart. We should strive, then, while the body is still functioning, for when life comes to an end, nothing more can be done. No matter how little or how much we have accomplished, we must stop at that point. We stop our work, put it aside, and then reap its rewards -- there, in the next life. Whatever we should be capable of doing, we do. If we can go beyond or gain release, that's the end of every problem. There will then be nothing to involve us in any turmoil. Here I've been talking about the mind because the mind is the primary issue. That which will make us fare well or badly, meet with pleasure or pain, is nothing else but the mind. As for what they call bad kamma, it lies within the mind that has made it. Whether or not you can remember, these seeds -- which lie within the heart -- can't be prevented from bearing fruit, because they are rooted in the mind. You have to accept your kamma. Don't find fault with it. Once it's done, it's done, so how can you find fault with it? The hand writes and so the hand must erase. You have to accept it like a good sport. This is the way it is with kamma until you can gain release -- which will be the end of the problem. ~meththa ranil 19228 From: James Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James (& A.Paul at the end), > > Btw, James, do you or anyone else have any Buddhist books (preferably > Theravada ones) you can recommend for me to buy for the Star Kids? If > they're easy to order, that would be an advantage as I seldom go shopping. > Some read adult books, but still, it has to be appealingly presented for > them. That reminds me, another member asked me off-list to recommend a > book for a complete beginner as a present. Perhaps I can pass this queery > to you and others as well as I don't have much idea of what's available > apart from the Tipitaka texts themselves. Virus Sarah ;-), I'm afraid there isn't much available for children and young adults concerning Buddhism. It goes from Jataka Tales to the Dali Lama; not much middle ground. That is why, as I wrote to you off-list, I am currently writing a book directed toward children and young adults. It is tentatively titled, "Buddha Smile; Buddhist Inspiration for the Young and Young-At-Heart" It will contain my letters to the Star Kids, some inspirational writings, meditation instructions in simple terms (One technique I call 'Toothpaste Tube Meditation') and various Buddhist stories of inspiration...and everything sprinkled with my wacky sense of humor. Until I finish with that, I could recommend two cartoon books titled 'Zen Speaks' and "Tao Speaks'. They are pretty entertaining in drawing, but the language and concepts are, unfortunately, very adult. Metta, James 19229 From: James Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: The Language of the Heart --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ranil gunawardena" < dearranil@h...> wrote: Hi Ranil, I very much like this post and agree with it. But it is very difficult for most to understand. I wrote a post to Sarah once that stated that she had forgotten what the heart knows. To my surprise, some other members and she thought I had suggested that she had no heart! LOL! Oh well. I am glad that you have posted such a thorough explanation of what I was trying to say at that time. Metta, James 19230 From: fcckuan Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Sarah, you wrote: Frank, I apologise if I've over-quoted here and I know there are many comments which you won't agree with . Always good to hear your reflections and never any hurry as far as I'm concerned for any response. --------------------- Quoting and sutta citation is good, and I agree with most of your comments (with conditions and in some cases in a slightly different context which can mean the difference between nibanna and hell :-). Letting go of attachments to certain types of dhamma practice and shifting of strategy of mindfulness have a proper order, as I understand the suttas, and if certain practices are let go of prematurely, then it can lead to massive suffering. I crave enlightenment. I'm deeply attached to the dhamma, crave and cling deeply to seclusion, developing right concentration in the canonical sense, i.e. JHANAS, cling to virtue, cling to right speech, etc. As long as I have not crossed the ocean of samsara, it is right that I should cling to the raft. It is proper to crave and cling to these things that are conducive to cessation of dukkha until such time they are no longer necessary (i.e. full liberation). The raft should not be abandoned prematurely. Unless we are non-returners, it is quite premature to talk about letting go of clinging to dhamma theory, letting go of right concentration. Craving to every type of object, subtle, gross, wholesome and unwholesome, have to be let go of eventually, but in the right order. Serendipitously, I came across this great passage last night. [m122.3] "Ananda, an [an aspirant determined to attain full liberation] does not shine by delighting in company...by rejoicing in society. Indeed, Ananda, it is not possible that [an aspirant] who ... devotes himself to delight in company, ... will ever obtain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment [i.e. the bliss of right concentration/jhanas]. But it can be expected that when [an aspirant] lives alone, withdrawn from society, he will obtain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the bliss of reunciation, ..., the bliss of enlightenment." ----- This excerpt unequivocally states the necessity of seclusion to properly develop jhanas (i.e. right concentration). And right concentration is necessary to develop the penetrating insight into reality that could lead to full liberation. I frequently see posts here that talk about cheetahs and atomic moments happening in such a way. How do you know that's true? How could you ever verify that without right concentration (um, JHANA!) and witnessing it directly? And even after full enlightenment, I do not recall a single case of an enlightened being in the suttas saying, "now you can stop the practice of seclusion and jhanas." The buddha and arahants always say, "we practice seclusion and jhanas for a pleasant abiding here and now, and also to set a firm example for future generations of cultivators [who might otherwise develop pernicious views of alternate paths to nibbana that do not include jhanas and seclusion]. It's not like 3 out of 4 arahants surveyed recommended continuing the practice of seclusion and jhanas. It's 10 out of 10, 9000 out of 9000. 100%. Every single samma sambuddha and arahant interviewed emphasized the practice of seclusion and jhanas in the pali suttas. Even bodhisattvas on a mahayana path with lots of socializing have to practice seclusion and jhanas. In suttas outlining the practice of the gradual path leading to enlightenment (m107 and m125 to name a couple of examples), you see seclusion and jhanas as integral parts of the gradual training. If you have 7 relay chariots (vissudhimagga) and one of the chariots is missing, you're not going to make it! I have never seen a pali sutta that talked about any other type of path, for example a path that emphasized study of abidhamma theory and mindfulness practice to the neglect of jhanas and seclusion that could lead to full liberation. At least that's my understanding of the pali suttas, and also what my intellect and intuition tell me as well. People of course have different accumlations, different obstacles, and encounter difficulties with certain essential buddhist practices. It might be pragmatic to put difficult practices aside for a short time, or even experiment with creative modifications, as a temporary measure. But if one is set on full liberation, whether monk or layperson, there is no other path (omitting any of the 8 limbs of 8fold path) that can lead to purification of mind and complete destruction of the taints. -fk 19231 From: fcckuan Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling > Jon: "Granted there are many references to solitude and sitting at the > roots of trees etc. But a skilful reading of the whole Tripitika shows > clearly that the Buddha urged his listeners, both monks and laypeople, to > develop the path in the course of the life they were living from day to > day. He did not urge them to set aside time from their daily routine for > practice, nor did he nominate any special time or place of practice as > being prime time for the development of the path. That's because for the serious aspirant, ALL THE TIME is the time to practice the 8fold path, not just a designated time here and there. Now a monk is going to be restricted to one meal a day before midday, but as far as the detailed and regimented instructions for the path to liberation, including the proper way to eat and devote ourselves to wakefulness, specific details abound. For example, in the practice of wakefulness, there is walking meditation, sitting meditation, a specific type of sleeping posture that would be conducive to a dull but conscious state of mind to get fully rested without becoming fully unconsciouss and dream, there is a proper time to wake, resume walking and sitting meditation (1st watch of night, 2nd watch of night, etc, commentaries detail the hour of day). For the layperson, the exact time of a meal would vary, but the proper way to eat remains the same for layperson and monk. Eating should be for nutrition only, to sustain this body, our vehicle to attain liberation. Eating should not be for entertainment, flavor, socializing. Similarly, the 4 nutriments are to be regarded in certain ways as we are performing those actions. We eat as if eating the flesh of... crossing the desert. We regard contact, volition, consciousness nutriments in a certain way. The exact time of day to do this practice of course is not specified. There are specifics outlining RIGHT CONCENTRATION, i.e. lower state has sustained thought, joy and rapture, higher state only has pure equanimity. Cultivators spend anywhere from one hour to 7 days absorbed in RIGHT CONCENTRATION. -fk 19232 From: fcckuan Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Buddha: "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana...the second jhana...the third...the fourth...the sphere of the infinitude of space...the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness...the sphere of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception." -- AN IX.36 19233 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, contemplation and insight Hi Larry, op 28-01-2003 02:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thinking about this some more, I agree vipassana isn't discursive. When > the commentary says, "his mindfulness is established with the thought > 'The body exists.'", this isn't a thought with words but rather an > understanding/experience. Similarly in Way 42 there is a comparison of > the awareness of deportment in animals and the awareness of sati > sampajanna. Sati sampajanna isn't contemplative or philosophical but > mindfulness with understanding, conditioned by careful noticing and > perhaps contemplative reflection. Nina: good reminder Larry, like Kom I can never have enough. Can Kom add something about this careful noticing, as a reminder for us? Nina 19234 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment, some Pali Hi Kom and Larry, here is the Pali of the relevant Tika text: tato eva attasa~n~na.m ``atthi attaa kaarako vedako''ti eva.m pavatta.m vipariitasa~n~na.m na ugghaa.teti naapaneti apa.tipakkhabhaavato, ananabruuhanato vaa. Therefore indeed the perception of self (atta sa~n~naa)ocurs that there is a self who acts or feels, and he does not abolish nor abandon this distorted perception because he does not develop the opposite quality (pa.tipakkha), he does not applies himself to development. eva.m bhuutassa cassa kuto kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavoti aaha ``kamma.t.thaana.m vaa satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaa vaa na hotii''ti. indeed, how can there for such a person be the development of a meditation subject, and therefore he said: there is no development of a meditation subject nor of satipatthana. ( I had trouble with: eva.m bhuutassa cassa kuto, kuto is how or from where. cassa is ca assa.) Now the meaning of opposite quality: we have to go back to the Way 25: two kinds of abandoning: by suppression (in samatha), vikkhambhana vinaya and the eradication by developing the opposites, tada"nga vinaya: this is the development of insight. Thus that is referred to here, I think, by pa.tipakkha: the development of the perception of impermanence to eradicate the wrong view of permanence, etc. op 28-01-2003 17:20 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > >> Way 42: [T] From the sort of mere awareness >> denoted by reference to >> canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a >> soul, the perverted >> perception, with the belief that there is a doer >> and an experiencer. One >> who does not uproot or remove that wrong >> perception owing to >> non-opposition to that perception and to absence >> of contemplative >> practice cannot be called one who develops >> anything like a subject of >> meditation. >> > > What is meant by "non-opposition to that perception" and > "contemplative practice"? 19235 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Ha Herman, Hoe gaat het met je? See below. op 26-01-2003 04:03 schreef Egberdina op hhofman@t...: >> Nina: Life is only one moment of experiencing an object. Life is > seeing, or >> hearing, etc. > I wonder why it is OK in Buddhism to have the separation of what is > essentially a unity / oneness into experience (verb), the object > (noun) of experience, the flavour of the object (adverb, adjective) > but on no account can there be a subject (pronoun)? N: This is a difficult question for me. Subject and object are loaded terms and if I would use them, I might twist the meaning that you intended, because I am not trained in philosophy. On the other hand, when we consider that which can be directly experienced, we can use any names, it does not matter how we call phenomena. Seeing is an experience, it experiences an object, visible object or colour. We can use of course the terms subject experiences object, but we have to be careful. An experience, such as seeing can be known by another experience. That is why I would avoid the word subject. You speak about a unity, and certainly what is experienced, the object, conditions the experience by way of object condition. Phenomena are different but they are related to each other in as far as they are conditions for each other. To give an example: visible object conditions seeing by being an object, but it is totally different from seeing. Visible object does not know at all that seeing experiences it. Eyesense is another conditions for seeing. Eyesense does not see, it does not experience anything, it merely is the physical base and doorway for seeing. Mind and body are a unity in as far as they condition one another, but they are not the same. H: Surely the distinction between verb, noun, adjective, adverb and > pronoun is conceptual and non-self. (snipped) > > It is considered to be a stage of insight to be able to differentiate > between nama and rupa. But why wouldn't it be a stage of insight to > realise that the particular nama/rupa (which really is one, not two) > is only happening to the subject? "I see blue" incorporates the > awareness that there are also other things happening (the precise > nature of which is unknown but including other subjects who are aware > thusly "I see yellow" "I smell a rose fragrance" etc etc.) N: Certainly, a lot of things are happening! But you know, every phenomenon is very momentary. We can use the words subject and object but let us not forget that they are so momentary. Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, they just happen in a moment. That is why a lot of things happen in split seconds. After seeing, thinking arises that thinks of "I see blue". But this has a characteristic different from seeing. Each phenomenon has its own characteristic and it shows this characteristic. These characteristics do not change. Seeing only experiences colour, it is not angry, it is not attached. Anger and attachment are qualities that can accompany other moments of cognition. As A. Sujin stressed: the dhamma is so useful, it teaches us to develop our own understanding. We do not have to believe someone else, or even the scriptures. We read that the five khandhas are non-self, but if we keep on reasoning about this truth, it will not help us much. We should try to find out the reason why it is so difficult for us to see the truth directly, what is in the way? Personality belief (sakkaya ditthi). We can define this, explain this, but it does not help sufficiently. We have to find out for ourselves what it is when it arises. As Azita said, lobha is so very subtle. When we are thinking about different things, when we go about in daily life, perform different actions, is there a subtle clinging to the idea of "I do this"? Or, "this is my opinion"? I find more and more that we have to be very honest, and that there are so many things in life we can discover, little by little. I also think of patience to slowly consider what we learn, to let it sink in, as I wrote before. I should myself consider more that patience is the highest ascetism, as the Buddha explained in the exhortation to the Patimokkha. Deprivation of food and sleep may be easier than patience to really listen to the Dhamma, consider it slowly, let it sink in and apply it by mindfulness of different characteristics. I like to quote again what Jon wrote, because this time something else strikes me here as a reminder for myself, the contrast between intellectual knowledge and direct understanding : <- repeated listening to/reading of the actual teachings (the Tipitaka) and their commentaries, - reflecting on what has been heard or studied and - applying what has been understood from the listening and reflecting. To many people this sounds like a purely intellectual exercise, but properly understood it is much more than that. It is or can be a condition for a better understanding of the presently arising reality. I think part of the reason for the scepticism that many have about this is that there's no immediate and direct 'result'. The results come in their own good time. The accumulation of understanding is very gradual and subtle and is absolutely not self (as in the adze-handle simile).> This is important: it is not a purely intellectual exercise. That is why A. Sujin stressed: no words are needed. Learn characteristics that appear. And the result: it comes in its own good time. We have to think of the chicks who are in the eggshell of ignorance and craving. Courage is needed to go on developing understanding. H: It is said the Buddha and others possessed of higher powers > could "read" the mind of others. Surely they would be able to > distinguish between the mind of the other and their own mind. To be > able to describe this situation don't you need pronouns (which do not > require the idea of self)? N: No need of any word, it was higher, direct knowledge. The Buddha did not need any words to attain Buddhahood. Herman, I do not know whether all this is of any help to you, I just tried as much as I was able to. I think Howard can add a few things about subject and object. Lodewijk thanks you for your kind greetings. He said to tell you that he is still struggling with Bach's Wohltemperiertes Klavier, All the best, also for your family, Nina. 19236 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: akusala citta, akusala kamma Dear Htoo, Thank you for your posts. I like the way you end them, with a good wish and some advice. See below op 27-01-2003 17:37 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, >> nina van gorkom wrote: >> Intimation through body and speech. no 2 >> We are inclined to take intimation as belonging to self, but bodily >> intimation is only a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. > So,if citta is Akusala it will cause Akusala Kamma.If Kusala,Kusala > Kamma.If Abyakata there will be no more Kamma.Kiriyacittas(Abyakata) > are Javanacittas of Arahats and they won't give rise to any Kamma. N: Not every akusala cittamotivates akusala kamma, certain factors are needed so that it will be akusala kamma that can cause akusala vipaka. If we like our food or laugh, there is no akusala kamma. We just discussed this again with A. Sujin. If we would think that laughing brings an unpleasant result, how unnatural our life would be. It could cause lots of scruples to people. Also when waving cheerfully, there need not be wrong view all the time. It can be with lobha but without wrong view , or with metta. But as you say, the gestures depend on cittas. One more point. Sometimes, but not always, the bodily intimation can be a doorway of kamma. You will read this in my translation later on. Someone gives an order to kill by gesture. See Atthasalini. H: If we wave people we know well with cheerful mind,the javanacittas > happening at that time will be ''Somanassa sahagatan ditthigata- > sampayottakanan asankharika cittas'' that is The Mind State that has > cheerfulness(Piti),misbelieving(ditthi)(actual dhamma are thought as > people,man,woman)along with Moha,Lobha,Ahirika,Anuttappa,Udicca and > 13 other Cetasikas. > > The gestures depend on Cittas.I hope it will clerify your queries. 19237 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas and insight op 27-01-2003 17:10 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: >> when >> our eyes are open it seems that it is light all the time. In > reality there >> is light only when seeing, and not at all the other moments. Seeing > is >> interrupted by many cittas arising in different processes. N: Of course I agree with the different objects experienced through the relevant doorways. Mybe I was not clear enough. The above is merely an illustration that we are so ignorant of what is really happening. A way to check ourselves. Nina 19238 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing Hi Kom and Larry, op 27-01-2003 07:04 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: >> From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] >> Way 41: In this section on breathing, the >> mindfulness which examines the >> respirations is the Truth of Suffering. The >> pre-craving which brings >> about that mindfulness is the Truth of >> Origination. Kom: 1) Mindfulness is the truth of suffering because it too is > anicca, dukkha, and anatta. > 2) The pre-craving that brings about the mindfulness. This > is very interesting. For samatha development, this could be > a craving for peacefulness (of concentration / jhana) or for > higher existence, and for insight, the craving for the > insights / feelings associated with insights / results of > insights (attainment). Nina: As I wrote precraving is former craving, purima tanha. Can we say: we are born because there is still craving. Thus, this former craving, stemming also from the past lives, conditions our whole life now which is dukkha, and thus also mindfulness is dukkha. But there is a way to its cessation. I would like to hear Num also. Nina. 19239 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:20am Subject: (2)1.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helper Dear Dhamma Friends, Everybody has one and the only one mind(from science point of view).Actually mind has as army of soldiers(mental factors) led by the general(Citta) or the king or the leader.When citta works like a king,accompanying cetasikas work as ministers.Ministers advise the king and the king does all the action.So,for everything,the king is responsible. There are four sets of ministers. 1.Permanent ministers(Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas) 2.Flexible ministers(Pakinnaka Cetasikas) 3.Destructive ministers(Akusala Cetasikas) 4.Constructive ministers(Kusala Cetasikas) Cetasika cannot perceive senses,which is function of citta.But their accompaniment makes the citta different names.So they can be conferred designers.Cetasikas help citta,advise citta,drive citta and do have many effects on citta.But citta behaves itself and always leads all the mental bodies. May you all have a clearer view on Cetasikas. Htoo Naing 19240 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 0:05pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Dharam and all, Please be at ease Dharam - I don't think you are judging anyone or recommending any course of action. I think you use writing to reflect upon and clarify your own thoughts - as do a number of us on this list. My previous discussion was about real actions being taken by some of us, regarding the real situations we are faced with in the moment to moment course of our lives. These come complete with personal and legal responsibilities, as well as with the limitations imposed by the small size of our financial resources and disposable income. When I am having to choose between, say, paying veterinary bills for Rusty, keeping a roof our heads, and replacing my ten year old car because I drive on rural roads at night (no luxury like public transport in my area) - I cannot afford to 'just jump on a plane' for a 2400 kilometre round trip to see my Parliamentary Representative. Perhaps incomes are greater, and air travel less expensive in America? I need to decide what action will be most effective and what action will be least harmful. (Impulsive action would bring penalties from my employer, and I need a job to live in this world. But most of all, travelling to Canberra would not be effective action, as my electorate is held by a Member of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, not by a member of the Governing Party). I am working within what is possible in a real situation. The hypothetical scenario you create is unreal and will not arise in this country in the forseeable future. As well, you seem to be projecting your own ideas of how others must be feeling and what their motives, intentions and shortcomings must be. Such surmising is all 'just thinking'... though a satisfying pastime, without doubt. I understand your words to be a variation of 'an unexamined life is not worth living'. If so, I agree. It is good for everyone to look at their *own* behaviour and see how closely they are living up to the guiding principles, the Teachings, that inform their ethical and spiritual life. One can only examine one's own mind and the actions that proceed from it, one cannot know the citta of another. Have you tried any initiative with respect to world peace that has proven more possible and effective than letter writing, telephone calls to decison makers, attendance at rallies and marches, and financial contributions to those organisations judged as effectively working for peace or assisting refugees? I would be very interested to hear about your own compassion-in-action, as opposed to armchair action and intellectual musings (articulate and enjoyable as they are). Unless you are a proponent of quietism, I am sure I could learn much from hearing of the practical application of your own spiritual beliefs in daily life. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: 19241 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 0:31pm Subject: Sanna, citta, panna was ..vs. Scientific View (a big post) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing < > > Dear KC,Larry and Dhamma, > Now I pull the old thread.What I would like to add is that sanna > cannot perceive as well.It is Citta who perceive fully > everything.Sati,Sanna,vedana and all other cetasikas cannot perceive > and perception is not their function. > > _________________ Dear Htoo, I add some more; The visuddhimagga Xiv3 "for though the state of knowing (janana-bhava) is equally presnt in perception(sanna), nevertheless perception is the mere perceiving of an object as , say, blue or yeelow; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristic as impermanent, painful and not-self (xiv3 ) "consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manisfestation of the path. Understanding (panna) knows the object in the way stated, and it brings about by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path." Very hard to really understand directly because these realities all arise together. No matter how much effort is applied if it is done with sakkya-ditthi it cannot know: In the quote from the visuddhimagga we see that citta(without panna) can know the characteristic of dhammas, it can perceive subtle feelings colours, sounds, hardness, heat - but if panna is not present one may be still developing the wrong path. Vis. Xiv6 " [the] difference is consequently subtle and hard to see. Hence the venerable nagasena said: "A difficult thing O king has been done by the Blessed one….the defining of the immaterial states of consciousness and its concomitants, which occur with a single object, and which he declared thus: this is contact, this is feeling , this is perception, this is volition, this is consciousness "(milinda panha 87) RobertK 19242 From: Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi, Nina (and Herman) - In a message dated 1/29/03 1:18:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: No need of any word, it was higher, direct knowledge. The Buddha did not > need any words to attain Buddhahood. > Herman, I do not know whether all this is of any help to you, I just tried > as much as I was able to. I think Howard can add a few things about subject > and object. > =========================== I doubt there is much of value that I can add. I think our language is limited. A subject-object experiential event, for example an act of seeing, is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects which, for lack of better terminology, we call "subjective" and "objective". With seeing for example, we unfortunately use the same word 'seeing' both for the entire event, and for its subjective aspect. The entire event is a seeing-seen unity for which we have no separate term. When we reify the subjective pole, we are "selfing" in the sense of taking that aspect of the event and making an agent out of it. When we reify the objective pole, we are "selfing: in the sense of making a "thing" out of the objective pole. These are my thoughts on the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19243 From: James Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:12pm Subject: Re: Chinese New Year!~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Hi James, > > Thanks...hehe of course Im not related to J.Lo, I sure > wish I was! Haha...Thats nice, sounds really > interesting to me! Orange! I love oranges!!! =) Yes, > Im sure its a reminder to eat healthy..hehe > > I am a horse and it does fit me too. Because I run > really fast..I just had a basketball game this > morning and my school won the other school 30-8. Our > basketball teams is very aggresive. My Astrological > sign is Virgo, Im not quite sure if it fits me or > not. =P > > Buddhist idea is sure really complicated to understand > but I still understand it. I have heard alot of > reincarnation stories from my teacher at school > these couple of weeks because we are learning about > India. Sounds scary to me but Its very interesting. > Do you have any stories of reincarnation or the > Buddhist idea of rebirth? > > What else does a Buddhist do to celebrate Chinese New > Year?? > > Well, Happy New Year to you too! Take care, thanks. > OrAnGeS!!! I love eating oranges! I'll eat really > healthy during Chinese New Year!~ [if i can!] > > Love, JoJo Hi Star Kid JoJo! I am glad that you are going to eat healthy in the New Year...if you can. It is also wise that you added 'if you can' because it is often hard to do what we intend isn't it? So many people, on all sides of us, will try to drag us down or to make us do things that we shouldn't do. This interference can be as simple as not eating oranges or as complicated as war. This leads me to the question that you ask: Do you have any stories of reincarnation or the Buddhist idea of rebirth? JoJo, there are many stories that the Buddha told about learning from past lives and how past lives affect your current life. And they are all very helpful. But I am going to tell you about another type of rebirth. There is a rebirth that is possible in this very life. There is a way to change and grow as a person, to be reborn, and it doesn't require dying first. Lately I have been thinking a lot about war, as the world may very soon get into another war, and I have been thinking about how war affects those who are innocent; especially how war affects children. And thinking of this, I have a story to tell you about rebirth. During WWII, Nazi Germany took many innocent people, mainly Jewish people, and locked them up into prisons called concentration camps. The Nazi people treated these people very badly because they thought they weren't human. They starved them, tortured them, and killed them...by the millions. There were a lot of children in these camps. One little boy, named Pavel Friedman, 11-years-old, was in a concentration camp named Terezin in 1942 when he wrote this poem: "The Butterfly" The last, the very last, So richly, brightly, dazzlingly yellow. Perhaps if the sun's tears would sing against a white stone. . . . Such, such a yellow Is carried lightly 'way up high. It went away I'm sure because it wished to kiss the world good-bye. For seven weeks I've lived in here, Penned up inside this ghetto. But I have found what I love here. The dandelions call to me And the white chestnut branches in the court. Only I never saw another butterfly. That butterfly was the last one. Butterflies don't live in here, in the ghetto. You see JoJo, even though Pavel had been locked up in a horrible place, and was treated in a horrible way, he did not let that get him down. He became reborn, like the butterfly that flew away, and he saw the beauty around him. This is the most important type of rebirth. Each day that we wake up is a chance to be a better person than the day before. It is a chance to escape whatever ugliness is around us and to see only the beauty. Pavel died two years after he wrote this poem in another concentration camp called Aushchwitz. JoJo, I hope that each day you will fly high in the air, just like a butterfly, and be reborn. Love, James 19244 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana - books > Btw, James, do you or anyone else have any Buddhist books (preferably > Theravada ones) you can recommend for me to buy for the Star Kids? If > they're easy to order, that would be an advantage as I seldom go shopping. > Some read adult books, but still, it has to be appealingly presented for > them. That reminds me, another member asked me off-list to recommend a > book for a complete beginner as a present. Perhaps I can pass this queery > to you and others as well as I don't have much idea of what's available > apart from the Tipitaka texts themselves. > ..... > > ps. I smiled about the member who described the Star Kids as > > viruses. Ironic because he's right, they are viruses...but so are > > we all. > ..... > Hmmm. > > Metta, > > Virus Sarah Pariyatti has a children's section. http://www.pariyatti.com/catalog.phtml?sort=subselect&subject=Children&sid=4 . One book I have seen is "The life of the Buddha" it is an illustrated book that is drawn from Burmese manuscripts. It has wonderful illustrations. One good book, more for adults, I have found is Thich Nhat Hanh's book Old Path White Clouds, again it is about the life of the Buddha. It is drawn from Pali sources, though there is a bit of the Hanh overlay. It is very approachable with pretty good notes. For books about general Buddhism, covering many schools, there is Entering the Stream, it can be found on Amazon and of course What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula would be a great introduction to Theravada. Ray 19245 From: david_wheeler58 Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Hi Sarah There is a place here in Boston that sells Buddhist books for children. I have not been in touch with them for a while, but I'll try and dig them up again. Metta, Dave " perhaps you could also > write down any titles of books that are suitable for children or young > teenagers for me too(preferably Theravada)." 19246 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Hi Larry & Nina, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > In order to uproot the idea of a soul or person, > one must be mindful of > the reality of body, feeling, mind, and dhamma > when they arise in > experience and contemplate their characteristics > of impermanence, > suffering, and not self. Experiencing these > characteristics in these > objects is the actual uprooting. What would you say? > I would agree with you here as it matches exactly with opposition to that perception (that dhammas are permanent, sukha, and atta), but I am nagged by the word "contemplative practice": does this mean satipatthana or something else? Nina, thank you very much for adding more notes from Tika which clarifies but also adds more questions for me: there is no development of a meditation subject. Satipatthana is developed, but what is the development of meditation subject? Does it refer to samatha or vipassana here? kom 19247 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, contemplation and insight Hi Nina & Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > > sampajanna. Sati sampajanna isn't contemplative > or philosophical but > > mindfulness with understanding, conditioned by > careful noticing and > > perhaps contemplative reflection. > Nina: good reminder Larry, like Kom I can never > have enough. Can Kom add > something about this careful noticing, as a > reminder for us? > Nina > If somebody tells me that I should be noticing the dhammas that are arising carefully, what I immediately think of is, who's doing the careful noticing? The "self" that notices would be (in realities) tanha, mana, and ditthi. If one of these is noticing the dhamma, then it is not satipatthana that is arising, but it is the dhamma, if misunderstood, could condition wrong views (that it is satipatthana). The self is immensely subtle: if we don't understand (really understand) that the Buddha's path is about detachment all the way, we might be misled by these ever more subtle kilesa. Panna is accumulated. When there is enough accumulation, it does its own thing properly. No need to be extra careful (except in not misleading oneself). The Buddha's compares the development of insights to wearing away the knife's handle. It is gradual, and hardly noticeable. When you goes for the accelerated schedule theory, or the big-bang theory, the task at hand is already being neglected. We should firmly remember the conditions of panna: sitting near the true friend, hearing the true dhamma, wise consideration, and follow the teachings the best we can. kom 19248 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma,Perceiving it & Realisation Dear Htoo (& Suan), I’m really appreciating your comments and posts though I understand that for others that the Abhidhamma details are an acquired or not to be acquired taste;-) Like various delicacies at a buffet, we need to pick and choose those that don’t give us indigestion;-) I have several of your posts before me which I’ve following as you send them. Sometimes I think there is a little difference in understanding and then I find it is just a matter of terminology. I’ve found much of the detail very helpful. Let me just raise a few points in no special order to clarify: --- "htootintnaing " wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Dhamma is Dhamma.All the dhamma can be perceptible. > > All the dhamma means all the possible things perceptible through the > watching windows of Six,including Pancadavara and Manodavara(mind- > eye). ..... I believe that when you say “All the dhamma can be perceptible” you are referring to the role of citta which experiences or cognizes all phenomena - both realities and concepts (pannatti). I agree with your other comments about citta being the ‘chief’ in experiencing an object. We can read a lot about this in the Atthasalini (Expositor). In another post you mentioned to someone that sa~n~na doesn’t perceive and that this is the role of citta. I think this may be a matter of terminology. Usually sanna is translated as perception or memory/remembrance, so it can lead to confusion if the term is used for citta, I think. I agree these may be misleading terms to us and in an earlier post, Suan made just your point and many more interesting ones in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/17264 I always meant to reply to it. One comment Suan made in this post was that to use perception for citta is “in line with the use of the term “perception” in the textbooks on psychology”. Now I was trained in psychology but I think there is little in common between the term as used there and the role of citta, so I prefer not to try to equate them. I’m also not sure I agree any more with Suan’s use of ‘memory’ as a translation for sanna (it certainly doesn’t equate with ‘memory’ in psychological use), though I appreciate his points about the use of memory in the chapter in Pali grammar, he mentions. In Abhidhamma, realities like sanna have very specific functions, manifestations and so on. Any terms are bound to be misleading. I did agree with Suan’s ‘mind or consciousness’ for citta rather than ‘thought’ which as he explained is very misleading. Generally, I just use common translations because at least people then know what Pali term is being referred to, though I understand that for Pali scholars like Suan, this is not a satisfactory solution. When you say “All the dhamma can be perceptible”, I believe you therefore mean that all dhammas are experienced (by cittas through 6 doorways (‘watching windows’), including pannatti. At first I misunderstood your post to mean ‘can be kown’, in which case, ‘dhammas’ would not include pannatti (concepts). This is later clarified in your post to James (19093). I found your posts on rupas very helpful and I hope Rob M (an Abhidhamma teacher in Malaysia) is following your posts on vithicitta (processes). You gave some useful comments here on ekaggata cetasika (concentration): Htoo: “Concentration is just a lay term.Everyone can concentrate in some ways.The dog concentrates at its food.The monkey concentrates at bananas wherever.Erotically active people concentrate on their interests.Terrorists concentrate at their attack points.Thieves concentrate on the disappearance of the owners.Manslaughters concentrate the weakest points at men and concentrate at these points. From Abhidhamma point of view,whenever citta occurs,Ekagatta occurs.BUT Ekagatta in different people and even in a person in different cittas behaves differently in terms of power,purity and strength even though its function is to fix at a point.” ***** I think you’re helping to clear up many points raised directly or indirectly and I’ll be delighted if you sweep through the archives doing this;-) ‘Dhammas’ can have different meanings in different contexts. In the post I started off replying to, when you said “All the dhamma can be perceptible”, you were