19600 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 0:26am Subject: RE: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Kom & Howard, Kom wrote: "The V. Mahamogallana at the end of his life was beaten to death by the robbers. He is said to escape the robbers for 7 different times (with his supernormal power). In the end, it is said he knew that he could not escape the results of his kamma." ..... Thanks for this example, Kom, and the extra details. I just checked the details of Mahamogallana’s death. I think it appears in other places with slightly different details, such as in the Anguttara Nikaya commentary, but I have it in the Dhammapada commentary (bk10, story 7, Burlingame transl). We read that after his vicious attack ("they tore him limb from limb, and pounded his bones until they were as small as grains of rice.....", tossed his bones in the bushes and left him for dead), he still went to pay final respects to the Buddha. Later, "the monks began a discussion in the Hall of Truth: 'Elder Mogallana the Great met death which he did not deserve." .At that moment the Teacher approached and asked them, "Monk, what are you saying as you sit here all gathered together?" When they told him, he said, "Monks, if you regard only this present state of existence, Moggallana the Great did indeed meet death which he did not deserve. But as a matter of fact, the manner of death he met was in exact conformity with the deed he committed in a previous state of existence.' " The Buddha then tells the story of the past about how in a previous life he had killed his parents. We read the Buddha says in conclusion: "Monks, by reason of the fact that Moggallana commited so monstrous a sin, he suffered torment for numberless hundreds of thousands of years in Hell; and thereafter, because the fruit of his evil deed was not yet exhausted, in a hundred successive existences he was beaten and pounded to pieces in like manner and so met death. Therefore the manner of death which Moggallana suffered was in exact conformity with his own misdeed in a previous state of existence. Likewise the five hundrd heretics who with the five hundred thieves offended against my son who had committed no offense against them, suffered precisely the form of death which they deserved. For he that offends against the offenseless, incurs misfortune and loss through ten circumstances." He then spoke these Dhammapada verses 137 - 140: "Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, Whosoever offends against those that are without offense, Such an one will right quickly come to one of ten states: He will incur cruel suffering, or infirmity or injury of the body, Or severe sickness, or loss of mind, Or misfortune proceeding from the king, or a heavy accusation, Or death of relatives, or loss of treasures, Or else the fire of lightning will consume his houses; upon dissolution of the body such a simpleton will go to Hell." ***** Just as when I read the stories of the Petas (hungry ghosts), I’m filled with horror everytime I read this story in full, especially on account of the horror of the results from unwholesome deeds, however horrific they are. Perhaps we can all agree that continuing to perform unwholesome acts of any kind and not seeing the danger in them is the real definintion of ‘having no wit’. As Kom further wrote: "Regarding blaming the receiver or the doer, how could we blame anybody except the kamma (volition)? With the bad kamma, bad results are (almost) certain to arise. This is why we shouldn't only be shameful of akusala states, we should also fear what they bring. But as long as the kandhas continue to exist, there are conditions for the undesirable vipaka to arise. The Buddha, the supreme accumulator of all wholesome states, received the results of bad kamma even after he has become enlightened: nobody escapes the results of kamma. Our akusala states are predominantly conditioned by our own accumulations and latent kilesa. The arahant has no such states because he has already eradicated the latent kilesa. The akusala states are not directly conditioned by the past kamma: this is true within ourselves as in others." Metta and thanks to you both for these reflections. Sarah ======= 19601 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Swee Boon, --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Sarah (& Howard), > > I have read this "Did they deserve it?" thread. > It is to my understanding that the Buddha never taught that Person > B's unarisen vipaka is the cause of Person A's new kamma. > > Person A's new kamma is caused by his/her own attachment, aversion > and ignorance. > > Person A's new kamma merely provided the necessary > ingredient/condition for Person B's unarisen vipaka to arise. ..... That sounds correct. ..... > I don't see any connection between Person B's unarisen vipaka being > the cause of the decision by Person A to carry out the attack. ..... I’m not at all sure Howard was saying that, but I’d rather leave the two of you to discuss that;-) ..... > Therefore, in the case of the victims of 911 in that article, the > carrying out of the attack on the Twin Towers by the terrorists > merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for the unarisen > vipaka (think of destructive kamma) of the victims to arise. ..... Yes. ..... > But the unarisen vipaka of the victims did not cause the decision by > the terrorists to carry out the attack. That decision is caused by > the terrorists' attachment, aversion and ignorance. ..... Yes...and especially wrong view. ..... > I do hope you explain more on this if possible. ..... Hopefully the MahaMogallana details clarify. Your comments here all seem perfectly correct. ..... > And I don't see how I am wrong when I say that our very existence is > simply kamma. Or should I say "our very existence is predominantly > kamma"? I equate kamma as samsara. ..... This, however, doesn’t make much sense to me. What does it mean when you say ‘our very existence is simply kamma’ or the other statements? Kamma is very specific, as I understand, and refers to the cetana (intention) cetasika (mental factor). As I briefly suggested yesterday, there are two kinds of kamma condition: 1)conascent kamma-condition which as Htoo pointed out arises with every citta, directing the other mental factors; 2) asynchronous kamma which is wholesome or unwholesome and produces results of deeds. If you wish to read more about conditions on line, including kamma condition, I think you’d find Nina’s book “Conditions” very helpful. (Kamma condition is in ch 11). I forget if it is on RobK’s websites yet, but if not, look on Zolag: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ ..... > RobertK said: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19564 > --------------------------------------------- > > Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; > > and dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. > > {added by me} > > (and dependent on kamma vatta, there arises vipaka vatta.) > > > The revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring > > continually throughout samasara vatta. > --------------------------------------------- > > (1) If kamma vatta ceases, vipaka vatta (renew existence / becoming) > and kilesa vatta ceases. > > (2) If kilesa vatta ceases, kamma vatta and vipaka vatta (renew > existence / becoming) ceases. > > (3) If vipaka vatta (renew existence / becoming) ceases, kilesa and > kamma vatta ceases. ..... I agree with 1) and 2). Vipaka vatta only ceases at the end of the life of an arahant, i.e parinibbana. ..... > An arahant is no longer bound to the revolution of these three > vattas because his cittas (during javana) are kiriya-cittas. ..... Of course he’s till bound in the sense of experiencing vipaka for that lifetime, but no more conditions for becoming. ..... > From the perspectives of (1), (2) and (3), our very existence > revolves around kamma; our very existence is kamma. "Swee Boon" is > nothing but kamma that has the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and > anatta. Such is this compounded thing called "Swee Boon". ..... Again, you’ve lost me. I think you’re using kamma in a very general sense and we can be rather more precise. Kamma is cetana cetasika to be very precise. There will also be more in U.P. under ‘kamma and vipaka’ I’m sure;-) Let me know if anything here isn’t clear, most definitely not that I’m an expert of any of the details. Metta, Sarah p.s Jon’s going on his own now to Oz as I just mentioned, direct on CX, not via Sing. We’d love you to join us in Bkk. If there’s any chance, let me know off-list =============== 19602 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where is the mind? Hi A, --- "a_doc99 " wrote: > > NOw I'm interesting in "where is the mind?" because American scientists > try to find connection between mind and body. JUst a few weeks ago, > Time magazine of Jan 20, 2003 (Or you can go > http://www.time.com/time/magazine/0,9263,1101030120,00.html ) > had special issue about Mind and Body. ..... Jon tells me ‘A’ is a real Thai nickname;-) We also have an ‘O’ and I believe Kom’s nickname is ‘C’??? I saw the article you mention. I think the point Htoo and I were trying to suggest is that scientifically it may be possible to pinpoint all kinds of locations for all kinds of functions, but this kind of knowledge and location is quite different from what is taught by the Buddha which relates to that which can be directly known and experienced as realities. So in a Buddhist sense, what you refer to as mind and body are concepts, not ‘ultimate realities’ which can be directly known. To give a couple of examples: anger can be known, but ‘brain’ can only be known by thinking. Sound can be known, but ‘body’ again is a concept. ..... > Me as a born Buddhist from Thailand. I remember I did read a Buddhist > book that mentiond the exact locantion of mind (a specific place in > brain) > and the way that mind connects to other 5 senses. So I want to know > more and post in this group the question. ..... I’d be curious to see the reference if you come across it again. According to the Buddhist texts, the heart-base (haddaya vatthu) is the base of the kinds of consciousness apart from those concerned with experiencing the 5 senses (seeing, hearing etc). If you look at this link under heart-base, you’ll see more details. It’s quite different from most scientific ideas, I think: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ..... > Also just a few day I went to > http://origin.dailynews.lk/2002/08/21/fea09.html > It said mind is at the limbic system, which the Buddha has referred to > as > the mind organ. > I still try to find more info about where the mind is, especially what > the > Buddha really taught. Maybe I will find in Abhidhamma Pitaka. > Anyone knows more about this, please let me know. > Thank you ..... I’m not quite with you here. We read in the texts about the 12 bases (ayatanas) and one of these is mind-base or consciousness (manayatana). It refers to all kinds of consciousness. Sometimes I think the translations can be confusing, so mind base or mind organ in the texts are in no way connected to scientific ideas of a mind organ. Pls I'm not sure that this helps at all. I hope Kom or Htoo may add extra details. .....> A (my nick name) > www.wakeupsmart.com ..... Welcome again, A. I hope we can answer some of your questions. Are you still living in Thailand or are you in the States I wonder??? With metta, Sarah ===== 19603 From: nidive Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Dear Sarah, > > And I don't see how I am wrong when I say that our very > > existence is simply kamma. Or should I say "our very existence > > is predominantly kamma"? I equate kamma as samsara. > This, however, doesn't make much sense to me. What does it mean > when you say `our very existence is simply kamma' or the other > statements? Kamma is very specific, as I understand, and refers > to the cetana (intention) cetasika (mental factor). As I briefly > suggested yesterday, there are two kinds of kamma condition: 1) > conascent kamma-condition which as Htoo pointed out arises with > every citta, directing the other mental factors; 2) asynchronous > kamma which is wholesome or unwholesome and produces results of > deeds. I quote from Conditions Chapter 11 by Nina, -------------------------------------- As regards conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya, the cetanås accompanying all 89 types of citta are conascent kamma- condition for the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany as well as for the rúpas produced by them. ... It (cetana) conditions the result in the form of vipåkacitta and specific rúpas of the body by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through speech and this can produce akusala vipåka later on. The akusala cetanå or kamma conditions the vipåkacitta which arises later on by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. At the same time, the akusala cetanå is related to the citta and cetasikas it accompanies and to speech intimation (vacíviññatti), a rúpa produced by citta, by way of conascent kamma-condition. THUS, CETANA IS IN DIFFERENT WAYS A CONDITION FOR OTHER PHENOMENA. -------------------------------------- In short, "Sarah", "Swee Boon" and "Nina" are no different from cetana (kamma). Just this is existence. There is no self to be found. Regards, NEO Swee Boon PS: I just failed my driving practical test at 5 pm and I feel miserable. Why do I feel anxiety? Does an arahant have any anxiety? Can an arahant fail his driving practical test? 19604 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Manual of Abh., new book. Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear friends, > I just received from PTS a new book: Summary of the Topics of > Abhidhamma and > its co: Abhidhammatthavibhavini, in English. R. Gethin the > translator quotes > the original preface by Wijeratne who started this work, but who > died before > he could finish: ... > My > thanks are also due to Jonathan Abbot for having sent me the Thai > edition of > the atthayojana to the tika...> > Several of you will rejoice, I know. > Jon, what is the atthayojana? > Nina. I haven't a clue, I'm afraid! This is going back some 20 to 25 years now. I vaguely remember sending something over to Dr Wijeratne, but have no idea what it was. Perhaps it will be mentioned in the text. I do however, have clear memories of the good doctor himself. A very unassuming but warm person, bright-eyed, articulate and obviously very interested in and knowledgable about the teachings. I got to know him during one of my visits to Colombo from Bangkok, probably at the time that Ven Dhammadharo was staying in Sri Lanka. I would meet Dr Wijeratne each day at the temple/centre (I can't quite remember which) where we were both visiting. He was very friendly to me, invited me to his home for dinner, and we kept up correspondence for some time after I returned to Bangkok. I did not get a chance to visit Sri Lanka again until many, many years later, when Sarah and I spent a couple of days there on the way to or from India. I was looking forward very much to seeing him again. Unfortunately, when I phoned his home, I learnt that he had passed away some years before. He has obviously put his Pali skills to good use, and leaves this book as his legacy. I'm looking forward very much to receiving my copy. Thanks very much for bringing this to my notice. Jon 19605 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - <> Yes, as my post must have brought a smile to yours, Howard. I'm sure you had been wondering just when I would come in on this point ;-)). << ... I completely disagree.>> Disagreement is the norm between us, Howard ;-)), so nothing unexpected there (although this may well be the first time you've said you 'completely' disagree!) . In the comments that follow I am, as usual, simply putting forward my understanding of what the teachings have to say, rather than getting into a discussion on individually held views. In particular, I'm not saying your view of things is wrong (I have no way of knowing for sure where the truth lies -- but hope to find out some day ;-)). <> I am reminded of the passage you often refer to, of the 2 sheaves of wheat supporting each other (as a simile for the interdependence of nama and rupa, if I remember correctly). Perhaps you would also say that for the duration of their interdependence (but not otherwise) the 2 sheaves were not separate and discrete entities? If so, then our differences may be more semantic than real. <> From an Abhidhamma point of view (as best I understand it): - It would be in accordance with the Abhidhamma to say that there is no seeing consciousness without visible object (indeed, this is so by definition): - A moment of seeing consciousness and its visible object, however, are not wholly coterminous, in that the latter 'exists' (stays/lasts) for a period many times longer than the former. This means that the same momentary visible object is the object of many separate moments of seeing consciousness. - In any 'act' of experiencing a rupa through a sense-door, the rupa must have arisen already for it to be the object of the experiencing consciousness. In other words, in any 'act of seeing', the visible object must always have arisen before the seeing consciousness that experiences it (never does the seeing consciousness arise first, nor do actual moment of arising of the 2 occur at exactly the same moment). - While visible object is dependent on seeing consciousness for its *being experienced*, it is not dependent on seeing consciousness for its *arising*. Thus the proposition 'no visible object without the seeing consciousness' would not be supported by the Abhidhamma, to my understanding. <> I think this is the same point as discussed above. Having arisen, there is a brief moment of staying/maintaining before falling away, but this does not happen 'in tandem'. <> The commentarial explanation of 'empty' as used in the suttas is 'empty of self', in other words, anatta (i.e., not empty of individual essence). Thanks for sharing your views, Howard. Jon 19606 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon and Mike, ... > Jon: If I remember > > correctly, this class of attachment is referred to somewhere in > the > > teachings as attachment that is 'to be followed' (perhaps someone > > will remember the source, it has been quoted on-list before). > Put > > another way, this akusala volition simply does not involve the > degree > > of danger that other akusala volition does. > N: There are the terms sama-lobha, sama meaning *even*: lobha that > is no > very harmful, and visama-lobha, lobha that really harms. In The > Guide, > Netti, there are the terms: that is to be followed, and Rob quoted > this > before. We studied this with Jim. It is a difficult text, though. > Lobha for > attainment that is to be followed, or, that can be followed. This > is what we > saw in the commentary to the text about jhanas recently quoted by > Frank, > chanda raga for arahatship. > Nina Thanks very much for this info. I had a quick look in The Guide, but couldn't find the reference. I will keep my eyes open for it. Apart from lobha for attainment, though, I have a clear recollection of the lobha that accompanies our normal everyday activities as being given a separate description or category of some kind, but can't now remember the context. Jon 19607 From: nidive Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: Calm and Insight. Henepola. Dear Nina, > I learnt recently in Bgk: 4 is sukkha vipassana, > it concerns mundane development. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html (4) "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Nina, I interpret the fourth case as a practitioner who abandons the defilements by forceful restraint (well under control). The concentration/tranquility of the practitioner arises through the forceful restraint of the defilements. This is said in Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. "And then whichever of the higher knowledges (abhinna powers and ending of mental effluents) he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. This fourth type of practitioner is very special. The practitioner does not practice jhanic access or jhanic absorption concentration. Yet the practitioner can still attain abhinna powers and the ending of the mental effluents. /* Does this imply that jhanas are not necessary to attain mundane abhinna powers? I have suspected that this could be the case (as attested to by my own psychic experiences but this is another totally different topic). */ In short, Nina, I don't think the fourth type of arahant is the arahant released by insight alone. This type of arahant practises both insight and forceful restraint of the defilements. For there can be no restraint of the defilements without insight. I still think that the second type of arahant (develops tranquility preceded by insight) is the arahant released by insight alone. Please refer to Page 168-169 (Chapter 7 - The Two Vehicles) of Ven. Henepola's work. Please also explain what you learnt recently in Bangkok as to why this fourth type of arahant is the arahant released by insight alone. > And: in the Patisambiddha the chapter on yuganaddha: here it > concerns lokuttara maggacitta. Nina, what is the Patisambiddha? I have not come across this thing. > Then samatha and vipassana are a pair and none exceeds the other. > Nibbana is the object. Which means that when magga-citta arises, supramundane samatha (tranquility) and supramundane vipassana (insight) are definitely present. This then is inline with Kimsuka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19608 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussion on Satipatthana at the Foundation week 5 no 1 Hi Jaran, I enjoyed this very much, I can never hear enough. Listening and considering condition the arising of sati that can be directly aware of characteristics. Anumodana, Nina op 12-02-2003 09:57 schreef jaranoh op jjn@b...: > > There are many levels of understanding. When listening to > dhamma, we understand that there is dhamma: citta, cetasika > and rupa having their characteristics to be studied. > However, this is understanding of listening level; we don't > know their characteristics despite the presence of dhamma > now. 19609 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma Hi Larry, I do not get your point, sorry. Do you think of the rupa which is the means for conveying a meaning? It is just rupa and it is gone immediately. It is different from nama which experiences. It is very subtle and we should not try to catch it. We learn that there are so many condiitons for speaking and bodily expression, and thus this can help us to cling less to person. While we are speaking or making gestures there are coarse rupas that can be known: hardness, motion, etc. When we speak we move the lips, but without naming realities, there can be awareness of them. They are different from nama, they are not an experience. Nina. op 12-02-2003 00:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > Are you saying that rupa is meaningful? If so, that would seem to > contradict the difference between nama and rupa. 19610 From: Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah (and Kom) - Just a couple comments in context below. In a message dated 2/13/03 3:40:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Kom &Howard, > > Kom wrote: "The V. Mahamogallana at the end of his life was beaten to > death by the robbers. He is said to escape the robbers for 7 different > times (with his supernormal power). In the end, it is said he knew that > he could not escape the results of his kamma." > ..... > Thanks for this example, Kom, and the extra details. I just checked the > details of Mahamogallana’s death. I think it appears in other places with > slightly different details, such as in the Anguttara Nikaya commentary, > but I have it in the Dhammapada commentary (bk10, story 7, Burlingame > transl). > > We read that after his vicious attack ("they tore him limb from limb, and > pounded his bones until they were as small as grains of rice.....", tossed > his bones in the bushes and left him for dead), he still went to pay final > respects to the Buddha. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: My, quite an accomplishment I'd say! Torn from limb to limb with bones pounded down until as small as grains of sand - and then this pile of flesh and sand manages to go pay respects! Not quite believable, is it? ;-) Of course, Maha Moggalana was a master of psychic abilities - so perhaps he did a quick reassembly job! ---------------------------------------------- > > Later, "the monks began a discussion in the Hall of Truth: 'Elder > Mogallana the Great met death which he did not deserve." .At > that moment the Teacher approached and asked them, "Monk, what are you > saying as you sit here all gathered together?" When they told him, he > said, "Monks, if you regard only this present state of existence, > Moggallana the Great did indeed meet death which he did not deserve. But > as a matter of fact, the manner of death he met was in exact conformity > with the deed he committed in a previous state of existence.' " > > The Buddha then tells the story of the past about how in a previous life > he had killed his parents. We read the Buddha says in conclusion: "Monks, > by reason of the fact that Moggallana commited so monstrous a sin, he > suffered torment for numberless hundreds of thousands of years in Hell; > and thereafter, because the fruit of his evil deed was not yet exhausted, > in a hundred successive existences he was beaten and pounded to pieces in > like manner and so met death. Therefore the manner of death which > Moggallana suffered was in exact conformity with his own misdeed in a > previous state of existence. Likewise the five hundrd heretics who with > the five hundred thieves offended against my son who had > committed no offense against them, suffered precisely the form of death > which they deserved. For he that offends against the offenseless, incurs > misfortune and loss through ten circumstances." > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: This certainly does sound like kamma vipaka in this case! ----------------------------------------------------- > > He then spoke these Dhammapada verses 137 - 140: > "Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, > Whosoever offends against those that are without offense, > Such an one will right quickly come to one of ten states: > > He will incur cruel suffering, or infirmity or injury of the body, > Or severe sickness, or loss of mind, > > Or misfortune proceeding from the king, or a heavy accusation, > Or death of relatives, or loss of treasures, > > Or else the fire of lightning will consume his houses; > upon dissolution of the body such a simpleton will go to Hell." > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, but look at what the foregoing says! It says "Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, Whosoever offends against those that are without offense, Such an one will right quickly come to one of ten states ..." (It refers, of course, to the Venerable having received kammic retribution for his past misdeeds.) Note that this quoted material says that those who "deserve not punishment" (the venerable's parents in the earlier life in this case) can yet receive punishment, that "those that are without offense" can be offended against!! Bad actions can be initiated against innocent people!! Not all that comes to one is (primarily) one's own kamma vipaka! (Yet I have every confidence that some will contort the meaning to reach the opposite conclusion. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------- > ***** > Just as when I read the stories of the Petas (hungry ghosts), I’m filled > with horror everytime I read this story in full, especially on account of > the horror of the results from unwholesome deeds, however horrific they > are. Perhaps we can all agree that continuing to perform unwholesome acts > of any kind and not seeing the danger in them is the real definintion of > ‘having no wit’. > > As Kom further wrote: > > "Regarding blaming the receiver or the doer, how could we blame anybody > except the kamma (volition)? With the bad kamma, bad results are (almost) > certain to arise. This is why we shouldn't only be shameful of akusala > states, we should also fear what they bring. But as long as the kandhas > continue to exist, there are conditions for the undesirable vipaka to > arise. The Buddha, the supreme accumulator of all wholesome states, > received the results of bad kamma even after he has become enlightened: > nobody escapes the results of kamma. > > Our akusala states are predominantly conditioned by our own accumulations > and latent kilesa. The arahant has no such states because he has already > eradicated the latent kilesa. The akusala states are not directly > conditioned by the past kamma: this is true within ourselves as in > others." > > Metta and thanks to you both for these reflections. > > Sarah > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19611 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:25am Subject: Re: (3)Rupa As A Ladder Dear NEO Swee Boon, Thanks for your interest in rupa-dhammas. Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas.Lakkhana is just a characteristic.So,in real sense it is not a real rupa.It is not influenced by Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara because it is just a characteristic. All in all,the very basis,as you know is four Mahabutarupas.All other rupas have to depend on these four. Each rupa has a lifespan of 17 times the Citta.As Aniccata is not a salakkhanarupa it does not have a lifespan as long as salakkhanarupas does. It is a rupa of a rupa.I say like this because it is the lakkhanarupa of a salakkhanarupas.When a salakkhanarupa ends its lifespan that is when it is in the last moment of 51 moment(17 >< 3 = 51 ,3 = 1.Upada 2.htiti 3.Bhanga),just before it disappearance may be called Aniccata. You may have a good view on this than me.If you can find more detail let me know. With best regards, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > > 28.Aniccatarupa(Disappearance of rupa) > > Can you explain more on this? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19612 From: Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 2/13/03 4:39:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Swee Boon, > > --- "nidive " wrote: >Hi Sarah (& > Howard), > > > >I have read this "Did they deserve it?" thread. > > >It is to my understanding that the Buddha never taught that Person > >B's unarisen vipaka is the cause of Person A's new kamma. > > > >Person A's new kamma is caused by his/her own attachment, aversion > >and ignorance. > > > >Person A's new kamma merely provided the necessary > >ingredient/condition for Person B's unarisen vipaka to arise. > ..... > That sounds correct. > ..... > >I don't see any connection between Person B's unarisen vipaka being > >the cause of the decision by Person A to carry out the attack. > ..... > I’m not at all sure Howard was saying that, but I’d rather leave the two > of you to discuss that;-) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, my position was the diametrical opposite! --------------------------------------------------- > ..... > >Therefore, in the case of the victims of 911 in that article, the > >carrying out of the attack on the Twin Towers by the terrorists > >merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for the unarisen > >vipaka (think of destructive kamma) of the victims to arise. > ..... > Yes. > ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The connection then is adventitious, purely fortuitous! Obviously, if one waits long enough, for enough lifetimes, one will surely have "bad things" happen to them, and "good things" as well. That is certainly not the mechanism for kammic niyama. I find this line of reasoning quite unconvincing. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19613 From: Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma Hi Nina, To me, "intimation" means "speech". So are you saying speech is rupa? Speech seems to have its own category in the "body, speech and mind" grouping. I assumed that speech = concept, but maybe there is more to it than that. Let's let it be for awhile. Maybe clarity will dawn sometime later. Larry 19614 From: Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Way 50, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1 Clear Comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 62 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Clear comprehension of suitability is the comprehension of the suitable after considering what is suitable and not. For instance, the visiting of a relic shrine could be quite (worthily) purposeful. But when a great offering is made to a relic shrine, a multitude of people in a ten or twelve yojana area gather, and men and women according to their position go about adorned like painted figures. And if in that crowd greed could arise for the bhikkhu in an attractive object, resentment in a non-attractive one, and delusion through prejudice; if he could commit the offence of sexual intercourse; or if harm could come to the holy life of purity; then, a place like that relic shrine would not be suitable. When there could be no such harm it would be suitable. [Tika] "Prejudice" [asamapekkhana] is the name given to the grasping of an object without wise reflection by way of worldly ignorant complacency [gehasita aññanupekkha vasena arammanassa ayoniso gahanam]. [T] "Commit the offence of sexual intercourse" by way of bodily contact with a woman. [T] "Harm come to life" through trampling down by an elephant and so forth. [T] "(Harm come to) purity" through seeing those of the opposite sex and so forth. The visiting of the Sangha is a purpose of worth. Still when there is all-night preaching in a big pandal in the inner village and there are crowds and one could possibly come to hurt and harm in the way mentioned earlier, that place of preaching is not suitable to go to. When there is no hurt or harm possible one may go there as it would then be suitable. In visiting elders who are surrounded by a large following suitability and non-suitability should also be determined in the way stated above. To visit a place where the dead are cast for beholding a corpse is fit, and to explain the meaning of this the following story has been told: It is said that a young bhikkhu went with a novice to get wood for tooth-cleaners. The novice getting out of the road proceeded in front to a place in search of wood and saw a corpse. Meditating on it he produced the first absorption, and making the factors of the absorption a basis for developing insight realized the first three fruitions of arahantship, while examining the conformations [sankhare sammasanto], and stood having laid hold of the subject of meditation for realizing the path of full arahantship. The young bhikkhu not seeing the novice called out to him. The novice thought thus: From the day I took up the homeless life I have endeavored to let me never be called twice by a bhikkhu, so, I will produce the further distinction (of full arahantship) another day, and replied to the bhikkhu with the words: "What's the matter, reverend sir?" "Come," said the bhikkhu and the novice returned. The novice told the bhikkhu as follows: "Go first by this way: then stand facing north, at the place I stood, for a while and look." The young bhikkhu followed the novice's instruction and attained just the distinction reached by the novice. Thus the same corpse became profitable to two people. For the male the female corpse is not suitable, and vice versa. Only a corpse of one's own sex is suitable. Comprehension of what is suitable in this way is called the clear comprehension of suitability. Further, the going on the alms round of that one who has thus comprehended purpose and suitability after leaving and taking up just that resort -- among the thirty-eight subjects of meditation -- called the subject of meditation after his own heart is clear comprehension of resort. [T] "Subject of meditation" [kammatthana] refers to the object of concentration by way of locality of occurrence of the contemplative action that is being stated. [T] "Resort" [gocara]. Literally, pasturing ground. This word is applied to the wandering for alms of a bhikkhu and to the subject of meditation in the sense of the locus [sphere, range or scope) of contemplative action. 19615 From: Diny@ Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:38pm Subject: To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice Hi Smallchap. I asked experience of Vipassana to share so that it can help us ( like me ) to get charge. If you are practising for 18 yrs great , definately life goes on usually for all , but after Vipassana did it help you in doing Good Job, thinking attitude or is it same as it was before 18 yrs ?? About Transform i mean that did you help others too ??? metta - Dinesh --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Smallchap, > > Good to see you posting after a looong break;-);-)So glad you're still > around. > > --- "smallchap " wrote: > > > > I have been practising anapana/vipassana for about 18 years. It has > > not transformed my life. Life goes on as usual for me. I have not > > transformed others' lives too through vipassana. Lives go on as > > usual for them too. > > > > :) > ..... > I smiled a lot when I read these comments.....yes, life has to go on as > usual for all of us. Looking for some kind of transformation can be a > mistake I think and is usually just an indication of more lobha and desire > for some special results. > > > > > smallchap > > p.s. I consider life transform to be from a puthujjana to an ariya. > ..... > Good answer! > > I'm waiting for Dinesh's response..... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 19616 From: Frank Kuan Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:58pm Subject: abandoning company Re: [Pali] Re: Migajala Sutta These are my notes from sutta [A3.16], and also occurs frequently throughout the whole cannon. ========================================== a cultivator is endowed with these 3 qualities develops the basis for the ending of the effluents. 1) guarding the sense doors (1 out of 4 factors of "right effort") 2) knows moderation in eating 3) devotion to wakefulness 1. guarding the sense doors (see right effort for details) when sense objects come into contact with 6 sense organs, "does not grasp at signs and features by which if he were to dwell without restraint over the sense organ, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him." 2. knows moderation in eating eat not playfully eat not for intoxication eat not for putting on bulk eat not for beautification eat for survival and continuance of this body eat to sustain body for spiritual practice thinking "I will destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. Thus I will maintain myself, be blameless, and live in comfort." 3. devotion to wakefulness during the day - sitting and walking meditation, purify mind first watch of night [dusk to 10pm] - sitting and walking meditation, purify mind second watch of night [10pm-2am] - sleep in lion posture, lying on right side, one foot on another, right hand under right cheek. Mind is mindful, alert, with mind set on getting up [either as soon as one awakens or at a particular time]. This posture is conducive to staying conscious in a low power mode, rather than completely falling into unconsciousness. Last watch of the night [2am-dawn] - sitting and walking meditation, purify mind. =========================================== If you look at the allocation of the 24 hours in the day, 4 hours are spent sleeping, the rest of the day is split between alternating walking and sitting meditation. Even if one practices like this in the company of other cultivators, they are still in virtual solitude. These instructions are directed to monks, but I see no reason why lay people can not adopt as much of it to their ability in their daily life. If you have a professional lifestyle that expends lots of energy, you might need 6 or 7 hours of sleep. A professional may only have 2-4 hours per day on weekdays to alternate between sitting and walking meditation. But there are 2 weekend days to completely devote to serious practice. There is no time to waste in overindulging in company of even good dhamma friends, not to speak of less worthy people. I see no way to carry out the Buddha's instructions without "abandoning company", with the exception of the occasional* dhamma conversations with dhamma friends. -fk * occasional meaning only the amount necessary to establish mundane right view to carry out the training 19617 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hello Eddie, You wrote: ------ > Ken, >You described it really good, that is what exactly I have read in one of the books. > ----- Thanks Eddie, I don't recall many of the details I have read about samsara but I know it's not a nice place to be. You mentioned in passing, that the Buddha always helped those people at the extremes -- the worst and the best -- and not in between. If I understand you correctly, you are are referring to the men and women who attained enlightenment soon after hearing the Dhamma. But really, all of them had 'only a little dust in their eyes.' Even though some of them had evil traits, they all had enormous accumulations of panna . Even the serial killer, Anguilimala, had lived the good life in many previous existences. I think I may have seen that sutta you referred to -- the one about a man who was ready to join the sangha except he couldn't resist the beautiful woman to whom he was engaged. (Kom has given us a link, I will look it up as soon as I go on line.) As I remember it, he joined the sangha with the idea that it would give him access to fabulously beautiful women living in the deva realms. Later, he realised that the other monks found it highly amusing that he had actually become a monk to meet girls, and he lost his craving. After reading all the helpful messages on this thread, I see the warnings against women (or the opposite sex, as the case may be), purely as warnings against attachment to samsara. The Buddha said (somewhere), that there is nothing more attractive to a man than a woman and nothing more attractive to a woman than a man. So, women (and men) are the most obvious examples to give in warning against attachment. Kind regards Ken H 19619 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 170/Both-ways-liberated (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thank you for your kind reply. > > I realized that the phrase "awareness-release" refers to the > attainment of the jhanas. So the Suttas such as: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html > > are talking about the arahant with both awareness-release and > discernment-release. They are meant for practitioners of the first > type (released both ways), as in: > > > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, > the > > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As > he > > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html I don't think 'insight preceded by tranquility' in this sutta is the same as liberation-both-ways. What is said here is that the monk has attained jhana at some time before he attains enlightenment. But this does not mean he is both-ways-liberated, since it does not necessarily follow that (a) his enlightenment was based on his jhana attainment (but merely that his jhana attainment preceded his enlightenment in point of time) or, (b) if his enlightenment was based on his jhana attainment, that it was a case of the monk being 'both-ways-liberated'. This is a fairly technical area, which I have never really gone into in detail. From what I understand, though (and which I think Nina has mentioned already), it requires not only attainment of the jhanas but a high degree of mastery of the jhanas to be capable of becoming 'liberated both ways'. I think this might be enough for 1 post. Like Nina, I prefer to take this difficult subject in small bites (my poor brain is not capable of dealing with so many threads at once, I'm afraid!). Just on a side point, I'm puzzled by your use of 'awareness-release', especially in contradistinction to 'discernment-release'. I don't think either of these expressions has been mentioned so far in our discussion, and I've not come across them before. Would you mind elaborating. Thanks. Enjoying your posts on this area. Jon 19620 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:36am Subject: A great non-golden lotus-flower for you..... Hi Christine, I have some good news......I came across the story we were looking for in this discussion: > --- "christine_forsyth " > wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > I was browsing the Useful Posts and came across one (16672) where you > > asked for a reference to the Buddha giving a monk a golden lotus. Not > > sure if anyone sent you this previously... > > It is mentioned at the link below - Fundamentals of Vipassana > > Meditation by Mahasi Sayadaw. Click on "The dull young monk" > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/fundamentals/fundamentals.htm > ..... > Exactly what I was looking for. The point of the story was that in this > case, even Sariputta did not know what the suitable meditation object (of > samatha) was. Only the Buddha knew....as it mentions, it turns out the > monk had been a goldsmith for 500 existences and so was fascinated by the > golden lotus. When the Buddha made it fade away, he realized the > tri-lakkhana after developing jhana. > > The question at the time of the discussion was whether teachers really > know what is suitable for students in this regard. ..... We can read the full story in the Jataka commentary, Bk1, No 25, Tittha-Jataka. I came across it yesterday when I was looking for the story about MahaMoggalana which I thought was here. (What’s also interesting is that the Jataka is marked up with my writing from a long time ago but yet I don’t recall having read it here before, which reminds me that all memory of the stories will be lost, only any real understanding will be accumulated from life to life;-)) A few quotes for those who don’t have the text: “Now, it is only a Buddha who has knowledge of the hearts and can read the thoughts of men; and therefore through lack of this power, the Captain of the Faith(i.e. Sariputta) had so little knowledge of the heart and thoughts of his co-resident, as to prescribe impurity as the theme for meditation. this was no good to that Brother. The reason why it was no good to him was that, according to tradition, he had invariably been born, throughout five hundred successive births, as a goldsmith; and consequently, the cumulative effect of seeing absolutely pure gold for so long a time had made the theme of impurity useless. He spent four months without being able to get so much as the first inkling of the idea.” The Buddha instead asked him to gaze at a great lotus flower in a pond. The Buddha made it decay and the bhikkhu understood impermanence of all conditioned phenomena and “won insight” (became a sotapanna?). The Buddha then uttered this verse and as he finished it, the bhikkhu became an arahant: “Pluck out self-love, as with the hand you pluck the autumn water-lily. Set your heart On naught but this, the perfect Path of Peace, And that Extinction which the Buddha taught.” ============================================= "Pluck out self-love..." hmmm.... (Note it is not a golden lotus as discussed above. The gold references are only to the bhikkhu in this life and previous lives being a goldsmith and having looked at gold for so long.) Metta, Sarah ====== 19621 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Henepola. Hi Swee Boon, --- "nidive " wrote: > Dear Nina, > > > I learnt recently in Bgk: 4 is sukkha vipassana, > > it concerns mundane development. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html You may like to check out this post of Nina's about the same sutta (and possibly others in its thread which may be relevant). I know Nina will be quite happy if you requote anything of relevance. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14225 Metta, Sarah ===== 19622 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Jon (& Nina), wrote: > Thanks very much for this info. I had a quick look in The Guide, but > couldn't find the reference. I will keep my eyes open for it. > > Apart from lobha for attainment, though, I have a clear recollection > of the lobha that accompanies our normal everyday activities as being > given a separate description or category of some kind, but can't now > remember the context. ..... You may like to check these links: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14554 (contains comments by Nina on the AN Bk of 10s sutta about chandha) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m1292.html (contains the Netthi quote) It's getting late (for me) and I'm busy at the weekend, but Mike may know just what to put in the escribe search to find links to other old relevant threads, especially to your second point. Metta, Sarah ======= 19623 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (3)Rupa As A Ladder Hi Htoo and Swee Boon, --- "htootintnaing " wrote: > Dear NEO Swee Boon, > > Thanks for your interest in rupa-dhammas. > > Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas.Lakkhana is just a > characteristic.So,in real sense it is not a real rupa.It is not > influenced by Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara because it is just a > characteristic. ..... > You may have a good view on this than me.If you can find more detail > let me know. ..... There is more detail in the Atthasalini and in the Visudhimagga, ch X1V Nina gives a useful summary and many quotes in her book "Rupas"ch 8, which is on line. Perhaps Swee Boon, you could kindly copy a few relevant Atth. and Vism quotes from here for others to see. Sorry, too rushed to find the link. Chris will have it at her fingertips as well, I'm sure;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 19624 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula Satapanna (was: Vipassana practice and life Transformed) Hi Smallchap I have the book by Ledi Sayadaw. He says that the person who realized the dependent origination is a culasotapanna, thus, the second stage of vipassana ~naa.na. which is still tender insight, taruna vipassana. The Visuddhimagga also mentions this,Vis. XIX, 27. Kom is completely right. How to do that? Well, there is no other way but beginning now to be aware of the objects appearing through the six doors. But no you who is trying, it is of no use to want or wish something. Then there is still the idea of doing something for one's own sake. That obstructs the development of panna. Nina. op 13-02-2003 04:48 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > I read about Cula Sotapana will not be reborn in the four lower > realms. I welcome comments from you and list members on who is a cula > sotapanna. > 19625 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, processes of citta Dear all, another example that the Abhidhamma is not a later invention. I checked those process cittas in the Patthana translation, as I mentioned before. The more one reflects, the clearer it becomes that no ordinary person, even no psychoanalyst, could invent all this. Only a Sammasambuddha. But let us study the Abhidhamma first. Then we can find out for ourselves. Nina op 13-02-2003 08:46 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > > U Narada says "The mental processes were not made up by the > commentators. They took them from proximity condition of the Patthana > expounded by the Buddha. These mental processes are dealt with in the > proximity condition of this Guide." > 19626 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Henepola. Dear Swee Boon, Sorry to hear about the failed driving test, but there will be other chances. Another more important test: real life is a test for panna, but how often do we fail. For answers see below. op 13-02-2003 14:44 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > > I interpret the fourth case as a practitioner who abandons the > defilements by forceful restraint (well under control). The > concentration/tranquility of the practitioner arises through the > forceful restraint of the defilements. > Nina: well under control is different from forceful restraint. I would like caution in using such words. A certain translation may lead one into thinking in such way. It is good to compare different translations, and Pali is best. The all has to be known, also akusala. See Satipatthana sutta under cittanupassana: citta with raga, with dosa, anything that arises because of conditions. How otherwise could we understand that akusala is only a nama arising because of conditions. Also the moment one wants to suppress has to be known: there may be dosa, or conceit, clinging to the importance of self. It helps so much that each moment is conditioned, no frustrations about it. You mentioned before the triple gateway: just before enlightenment the conditioned dhamma that appears is known as impermanent, dukkha or anatta. Only one of these three can be known at a time. That is then the gateway to enlightenment. The object is any reality that appears, it can be lobha. Even just after lobha enlightenment can occur. This can remind us not to ignore akusala as object of understanding; any object is worthy of sati and panna. If we keep on suppressing, no chance to understand. That is to me the marvel of the teachings. See the Sangarava sutta (Gradual Sayings, Book of threes, quoted in ADL, Ch 22.) Jhana has to be cultivated for the abhinna powers. Because of former accumulations there may be special experiences. In order to find out whether these accompany kusala citta or akusala citta, panna and sati are necessary. Again the beauty of the teachings: nobody else can tell us, only panna. As A. Sujin said: panna has to go through everything. This can cause us to have great confidence in the teachings. We may have seemingly kusala motives for helping others, but see, how many moments of clinging to the importance of self, in action and speech. As A. Sujin said (just heard on tape): When there is "him" in the thinking we are still thinking of ourselves. It is very difficult to get rid of belonging. There is more metta when there is no particular person at all." Another reminder of her: "When we learn by words there is doubt, but when there is awareness we learn to understand realities." And read the Vinaya: what seems kusala is akusala: the monk who meditates, sitting in public with his eyes closed, but he may have selfish motives. Very subtle akusala is shown in the Tipitaka. I think of the Mirror of Dhamma, Sarah mentioned. Next week I continue, the weekend is too busy for me. Henepola: I only have the wheel 351, 353, and this does not have Ch 7. I saw the passage on khanika samadhi, later on more. I am glad about your additional text of the sutta and study the co now, very interesting. The Patisambhidamagga is translated as the Path of Discrimination. It is composed by Sariputta, it belongs to the Khuddaka Nikaya and is thus part of the Canon. I also have the Co in Thai. Numa did a series on it based on discussions in Bgk (hint: I hope more is coming). Best wishes, Nina. 19627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:06am Subject: samalobha, visamalobha Dear Jonothan, what a delightful story about Wijeratne, such kindness and hospitality, just as we experienced when in Sri Lanka. The passage in Guide: p. 121. Though conceit and craving are akusala, their object may be wholesome. A difficult subject I find. Nina 19628 From: connie Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:53pm Subject: re: another lurker Hi, Sarah and All, Just coming up for more air and thought I should answer you before it gets any later. The archives are pretty deep in a lot of places and with all the streams running into it I don't know when I'll catch up. Have been thinking I haven't been a very strong swimmer and have just floated along with any interpretation that makes the best sense to me at the time. Got pretty well caught up in the futility undercurrent for awhile. ..... Perhaps you'll also encourage Betty to write more, though I know she's always got many projects. I don't know if that is Washington DC where a couple of others live. Sounds like the Christian preachers are v.helpful. ..... I really don't know Betty but agree that it would be nice to hear more from her here. She just suggested that I join this list when I'd written her about the advanced section of the dhammastudy website. This is the other Washington, on the Pacific coast side. Omak's in the north central part of the state, about 100 miles south of Canada. ..... p.s let us know how the "rotting corpse" meditation sessions go;-) ====== I didn't see Mary this week, so don't know what the plant's doing now. She was thinking about taking it in to work because they have a room there they don't use a whole lot and then taking it back home when it's through blooming. We meet in a room the people who run the Omak Therapy Building let us use. peace, connie 19629 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:45pm Subject: I'm back Dear James, Sorry I did not write to you for so long, even though I made a plan for this letter before the holiday, as I had a holiday and I went to Phuket in Thailand. When I came back, I wanted to type a letter but the computer did not work so....... By the way, I have a few questions: -Where is the Zen Meditation temple or calm village? -Why do you like meditating?(I think it is quite boring, I cannot think quietly or maybe I do not have patience to do it.) -Is the eight foot path important to Buddhists? Please send me more poems as I really enjoy as they are funny! Metta, Janice Chung 19630 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:47pm Subject: /Nice to write to you again Dear Kom, It's Janice! Sorry I did not write to you for so long as I had a holiday! Do you mind to explain a little more about mindfulness? Is it related to the buddha? Thank You! Metta, Janice 19631 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:49pm Subject: Hello Hi James, I'm Hilary and I'm 11.I've read the letters you've written. You seem like some type of Buddhism and a great poet. Can you please answer a couple of questions on my mind about Buddhism? O.K, first of all what do buddhists do when they go to temples? I know they pray but do they do anything like dance,readings, songs, or things like that? My next question will probably occur to next year's Chinese New Year.Do buddhist do anything special during Chinese New Year. I would love to hear some more things about Buddhism in the letters you write. From, Hilary P.S - please send me some poems too. ______________________________________________________ 19632 From: smallchap Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula Sotapanna (was: Vipassana practice and life Transformed) Hi Kom and Nina, Thanks for the coments and the references. Nina, when you said second stage of vipassana ~naa.na, I believe you mean it to be udayabbaya-nana? It is interesting. I have found a comment in the book "The Essence of Budhha Abhidhamma" by Dr Mehm Tin Mon. His understanding of a cula- sotapanna is somewhat different. In Chapter IV under the section Cula-Sotapanna, De Mehm Tin Mon defined a cula-sotapanna as "a yogi who has attained Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana and Paccaya- pariggaha-nana, has temporaily eliminated ditthi and vicikiccha as described above [smallchap: in the previous section, the author talked about how to purify doubts]. So he resembles a sotapanna but he is not a sotapanna yet. He is called a cula-sotapaana meaning a junior-sotapanna. He will not be reborn in the apaya abodes in his subsequent life." The author continued: "The two knowledges, i.e. Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana and Paccya- pariggaha-nana, are very important. They are the basic knowledges in insight-meditations and they constitute the foundations for the arising of ten vipassana-nanas in later stages. They are not included in the vapassana-nanas because they do not concentrate on the three characteristic marks (Tilakkhana) of existence. Nevertheless they reveal the insight nature of the ultimate realities concerning nama and rupa." "They are important because they eliminate [smallchap: I believe the author meant temprary eliminate] the wrong or evil views (miccha- ditthi) and strengthens the right view (samma-ditthi)" So it seems to me that if one takes to vipassana meditation diligently, straigth away one is a cula-sotapanna? You are right in saying that there is no use to want or wish for something. One will get no where by mere wishing and wanting. On the other hand, however, for one who is ready to enter the magga and the phala, perhaps a (strong) desire to escape from samsara is necessary? (The Elder Sangharakkhita, Visuddhi Magga Chapter I, 135) smallchap 19633 From: James Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 0:10am Subject: Re: I'm back --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > Sorry I did not write to you for so long, > even though I made a plan for this letter before the > holiday, as I had a holiday and I went to Phuket in > Thailand. When I came back, I wanted to type a letter > but the computer did not work so....... (James: That is okay. I have been rather busy myself. I have never been to Phuket even though I have been to Thailand twice. Maybe I will go there one day. I am told it has beautiful beaches. BTW, I am going to be moving to Cairo, Egypt this summer to teach for two years. While there, I will travel to many other countries. I see that you like to travel also. Maybe I will meet you sometime in some completely foreign country! ;-) > > By the way, I have a few questions: > -Where is the Zen Meditation temple or calm village? (James: It is on 7th Ave and Baseline in Phoenix, Arizona, USA) > -Why do you like meditating?(I think it is quite > boring, I cannot think quietly or maybe I do not have > patience to do it.) (James: I wouldn't say that I `like' to meditate. I think it would be kinda weird for anyone to `like' to meditate. You see, meditation is work and no one really likes to do work…including me. Let me tell you a funny story to explain. When I was a kid, I hated to take a bath. My mother would have to fight me practically every day to take a bath. This exasperated her because I am a very stubborn type of person…even in the face of threats, punishments, or bribery. And I did not want to take a bath!! It was work and I didn't want to do any work! Geez, especially everyday!! So my dad got an idea, which bombed horribly. He told my mom to just let me go without a bath until I got so dirty I couldn't stand myself anymore; then I would come begging for a bath. LOL!…fathers can be so naïve sometimes. Well, my mother decided to give it a try. Plus it would be a break for her from having to fight me. I didn't even get through a week before my mother threw in the towel and forced me to take a bath. I had become a walking Pig Pen, a cave man child! Hehehehe… Eventually my mother got me into the habit of taking a bath. And though I still recognize it for what it is even today, Work!; lucky for everyone around me, I still do it. Our minds also get dirty, and meditation is the way to clean them. But, unfortunately, we never had parents reminding us everyday, "Okay, young man/woman, now its time for you to meditate and go to bed." And, like I was when I was a kid, if we are left to our own devices, we will let our minds become virtual Pig Pens with filth, clutter, and dirt. Some people learn that they must shift this dirt around on a daily basis in order to function, but the dirt still remains. But we all know, instinctively, that if we only meditated that would help to get rid of the dirt and we wouldn't have to move it around anymore. But most don't because meditation is work! And if you have let your mind get really, really, really dirty over many lifetimes, it can be some seriously hard work! It is like a lot of people are walking around completely filthy, stinking of B.O., hair all matted, and teeth all crusty and they say, "You know, I have heard of taking a bath, and for some reason that idea really appeals to me. I'm not sure why. Hmmmm… Well, maybe I will do it someday." Of course by the time they get to bathing themselves, they may just have to take off a layer of skin to get clean! So, I always urge everyone to meditate. I know it is hard work, it's hard work for me each time I do it; but you will feel so much better afterward. Your mind will be cleaner and wiser, you day will be happier, and your life will be brighter. After all, no one needs a dirty mind! ;-) Just start out with what you could do Janice, and work your way up. Kids can meditate also. Ask me again about this another time...this post is already getting very long! ;-) > > -Is the eight foot path important to Buddhists? (James: hehehe...actually it is called the Eightfold Path or the Eight-Branched Path (which I like because it reminds me that they seem separate but they are really one path...like the branches on the tree). It isn't the eight foot path...or we all could get to the end of that really fast! ;-) Maybe in one jump. And yes, it is very, very important to Buddhist. It is the answer to the problem of human suffering. Check out some of my other letters describing this path so that I don't write anymore. I hope you aren't asleep by this point! ;-) > > Please send me more poems as I really enjoy as they > are funny! > > Metta, > Janice Chung Metta, James (I only put my name on the same line as the farewell because this is the Internet and I don't like to make people scroll for no reason. But you are right the way you do it. Just didn't want you to be confused about that ;-) (ps. Okay, since I am going to be moving to Cairo, Egypt this summer to teach English for two years, here is a poem I like and it reminds me of Egypt: Don't Bring Camels in the Classroom by Kenn Nesbitt Don't bring camels in the classroom. Don't bring scorpions to school. Don't bring rhinos, rats, or reindeer. Don't bring mice or moose or mule. Pull your penguin off the playground. Put your python in a tree. Place your platypus wherever you think platypi should be. Lose your leopard and your lemur. Leave your llama and your leech. Take your tiger, toad, and toucan anywhere but where they teach. Send your wombat and your weasel with your wasp and wolverine. Hide your hedgehog and hyena where you're sure they won't be seen. Please get rid of your gorilla. Please kick out your kangaroo. No, the teacher didn't mean it when she called the class a "zoo." 19634 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 0:41am Subject: ~Rebirth & WW2~ Hi James, I've heard you've gone on a vacation from here, where'd you go? Well, Im not sure if I ate healthy or not..I went to China and ate lots of stuff, yummy stuff! =) Yes, I agree..if they world gets into another war..alot of innocent people will dieand the world will become a disaster which Im sure nobody wants that to happen. I've heard about the concentration camps and seenpictures of them because just a few months ago, I was doing a project for a drama class that was performing a show about Hitler, concentration camps, the Nazis, etc. Its called "The Wave"..Have you heard of that movie before? Its all about a class learning about Hitler and concentration camps. It was sure a good movie! The poem was very beautiful..I loved it! I feel really sorry for all the adults and children that was sent to the concentrations camps. Thats a very interesting way of being reborn. What will happen to the Nazis when they are reborn? Well, I hope you had fun in wherever you went for your holiday! Can you tell me something you did? How was it? Can you tell me more about the concentration camps and WW2?? Does Buddhists go to church like Christians and Catholic ? Talk to you later-Take care-Love, JoJo* 19635 From: smallchap Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice Hi Dinesh, I do find that practising vipassana regularly helps in my mundane chore. I am more efficient and more focus in the work I do, compare to previouly before I practise vapassana. As far as attitude is concerned, yes, there is a change. The urge to escape from samsara is much stronger than before. I teach vapassana meditation too, after my teacher told me to do so some 9 yers ago. So I suppose I have helped others as well. If the experience I described above (nothing to cry about)can help you in anyway in wantung to practise vipassana, that is well and good. I believe you know the purpose of pratising vapassanan meditation. regards, smallchap --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" wrote: > Hi Smallchap. > > I asked experience of Vipassana to share so that it can help us ( like me ) to > get charge. If you are practising for 18 yrs great , definately life goes on > usually for all , but after Vipassana did it help you in doing Good Job, > thinking attitude or is it same as it was before 18 yrs ?? > > About Transform i mean that did you help others too ??? > > metta > - Dinesh > > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi Smallchap, > > > > Good to see you posting after a looong break;-);-)So glad you're still > > around. > > > > --- "smallchap " wrote: > > > > > > I have been practising anapana/vipassana for about 18 years. It has > > > not transformed my life. Life goes on as usual for me. I have not > > > transformed others' lives too through vipassana. Lives go on as > > > usual for them too. > > > > > > :) > > ..... > > I smiled a lot when I read these comments.....yes, life has to go on as > > usual for all of us. Looking for some kind of transformation can be a > > mistake I think and is usually just an indication of more lobha and desire > > for some special results. > > > > > > > > smallchap > > > p.s. I consider life transform to be from a puthujjana to an ariya. > > ..... > > Good answer! > > > > I'm waiting for Dinesh's response..... > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== 19636 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:24am Subject: (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Dhamma Friends, So far have I described very concisely about Citta,Cetasikas and Rupas in my series of (1) Citta As A Leader (2)Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers-5 messages and (3) Rupa As A Ladder.In this message Pannatta will be delineated. Pannatta(naming,calling,nominating) is a necessity in daily life,without which the world would be so awkward to deal with.Even The Buddha had to utilise Pannatta.In Dhamma preaching,Pannatta had to be used.For understanding Dhamma,Pannatta is entirely necessary. Realisation of The Dhamma has to pass through words of Pannatta.Without Pannatta,realisation of everything will never be possible. There are two types of Pannatta,Sadda-pannatta and Atta-pannatta.Atta- pannatta is the final Pannatta that conveys all the necessary messages about dhammas and the nature and its laws.Sadda-pannatta is a bit different from Atta-pannatta and many languages are sorts of different sounds representing Pannatta.When the practitioner of Jhana completes his jhana and Abhinna,there is no language barrier as he will pass through the words of Atta-pannatta and realises all wishes of those sattas that he directs as Paracita-vijjanana. Sadda-pannatta is different in different countries,states,nations,races,tribes and societies.But finally the all carry the same message if the origional message is the same.But translation may makes a bit difference.However,the most important thing is to obtain the message passed by The Buddha. Pannatta is not a real thing or it is not a Paramattha Sacca.It has no lifespan.It does not arise or pass away and it is not a universal truth or ultimate truth.But all the practitioners of Dhamma have to ride on the Vehicle of Pannatta to go to Nibbana. May you all understand Pannatta and use it as a vehicle to go to Nibbana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 19638 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:12am Subject: Message sent in error Dear All My apologies for the earlier message (now deleted) that was sent in error. Jon 19639 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... <> I understand the Dhamma as teaching cause and result. Such and such a cause, if certain conditions are present, will bring such and such a result. That kind of thing. This applies to the development of understanding as much as anything else. However, we must bear in mind that the development of insight is the most difficult thing there is or ever could be to understand, and the exact causal factors are simply not capable of being laid out in bullet point form. Even in the case of the 5 precepts, which concern action the grossest kind of action (i.e., bodily rather than mental action), the teaching is not expressed in terms of volitional action/restraint. The precepts are an 'undertaking of the training of refraining from' the conduct in question. What is being taught is the cultivation of the kusala that is mental restraint. Kusala mental restraint is not the same as forced avoidance. One is kusala, the other is akusala. Turning to the specific factors you mention (hearing to and reflecting on the teachings), neither of these is a volitional activity anyway, to my thinking. For example, whether we get to hear the true dhamma is as much a function of past kamma and our interest in following up on opportunities that present themselves, as it is of present volition, wouldn't you say. It's not really something we can make happen. Perhaps we don’t appreciate at times how greatly privileged we are to have both the opportunities that we do, and the interest to make the most of those opportunities, in this lifetime. As regards reflecting on the dhamma, I'm sure you must have had the experience of this happening subconsciously, completely involuntarily, while going about your regular daily activities. There may be no apparent (conventional) volition involved, but perhaps quite a lot of kusala. Conversely, times of deliberate and directed reflecting on chosen objects may involve quite a lot of akusala (if we are honest with ourselves about it). To me, it's a matter of understanding that these necessary factors, like all other dhammas, are conditioned dhammas. <<... and that this alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, to all the enlightenment factors, and, eventually, to liberation.>> According to my reading of the teachings, the one thing that 'alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, etc ...' would satipatthana, but this cannot be developed without the repeated hearing of and reflecting on the words of the Buddha. None of this would be what I think of as volitional activity. <> I hope I've clarified. Do you think the interpretation I've given is reasonably open on the texts (I'm not asking you to agree with it, of course ;-))? <<(This is not at all my understanding of the Dhamma, but I know that you realize that. I do not consider the Dhamma as mainly descriptive but as mainly prescriptive.)>> Yes, understood. Jon 19640 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 2/15/03 7:25:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Pannatta is not a real thing or it is not a Paramattha Sacca.It has > no lifespan.It does not arise or pass away ... =========================== Either there are pa~n~natti or there are not. If there are no such things (no namings, no callings, no concepts that are constructs from more elementary mental phenomena), then ... But, of course, there *are* concepts. Whenever we think of a tree or a table or a house, there is a concept, and whenever we "see" one of these, we are applying a concept as a template to a bundle of just-passed visual experiences. Both the concepts themselves and the application of them to "bundles of just-passed experiences" actually occur. So, there *are* pa~n~natti in the sense of mentally constructed phenomena that are used as templates applied to aggregates of direct experiences. These pa~n~natti DO arise and pass away, for they exist and are conditioned, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent! Now, the word 'pa~n~natta' is *also* used for the alleged *referent* of a concept. Even when that is a paramattha dhamma, it is not an existent in the mode that it is grasped by the pa~n~natta, for that mode of (conceptual) grasping is merely indirect and inferential. Of course, the referent of a *complex* concept such as 'tree' isn't even amenable to direct experiencing but *only* via the mental construct of 'tree'. But the conventional tree is not nothing at all, because it is based on an aggregate of actual, interrelated, direct experiences. Conventional objects such as trees, though not existing *as such*, independent of our conceptualization, still can be considered to be impermanent; to the extent that they exist, which is merely conventional, they are derivatively impermanent, because the underlying "realities" are impermanent. The "tree" is seen to grow from a seed, to constantly change, with leaves growing and falling off, with branches accupying varying conditions - swaying in the breeze. That is all, of course, merely a conventional manner of speaking, but it reflects the reality of the impermanence of the paramattha dhammas underlying "the tree". I think we tread on dangerous ground when we speak of things other than nibbana as neither arising nor ceasing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19641 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon - What I would like to understand is what in your opinion is the difference between being a Buddhist and not being a Buddhist. As I understand the position you express in the following, there is no path of practice; whatever happens, happens - period. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/15/03 8:52:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > ... > < reflecting on the teachings - that is the only thing you understand > the Dhamma as teaching us to volitionally do, ...>> > > I understand the Dhamma as teaching cause and result. Such and such > a cause, if certain conditions are present, will bring such and such > a result. That kind of thing. > > This applies to the development of understanding as much as anything > else. However, we must bear in mind that the development of insight > is the most difficult thing there is or ever could be to understand, > and the exact causal factors are simply not capable of being laid out > in bullet point form. > > Even in the case of the 5 precepts, which concern action the grossest > kind of action (i.e., bodily rather than mental action), the teaching > is not expressed in terms of volitional action/restraint. The > precepts are an 'undertaking of the training of refraining from' the > conduct in question. What is being taught is the cultivation of the > kusala that is mental restraint. Kusala mental restraint is not the > same as forced avoidance. One is kusala, the other is akusala. > > Turning to the specific factors you mention (hearing to and > reflecting on the teachings), neither of these is a volitional > activity anyway, to my thinking. > > For example, whether we get to hear the true dhamma is as much a > function of past kamma and our interest in following up on > opportunities that present themselves, as it is of present volition, > wouldn't you say. It's not really something we can make happen. > Perhaps we don’t appreciate at times how greatly privileged we are to > have both the opportunities that we do, and the interest to make the > most of those opportunities, in this lifetime. > > As regards reflecting on the dhamma, I'm sure you must have had the > experience of this happening subconsciously, completely > involuntarily, while going about your regular daily activities. > There may be no apparent (conventional) volition involved, but > perhaps quite a lot of kusala. Conversely, times of deliberate and > directed reflecting on chosen objects may involve quite a lot of > akusala (if we are honest with ourselves about it). > > To me, it's a matter of understanding that these necessary factors, > like all other dhammas, are conditioned dhammas. > > <<... and that this alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala > conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, > to all the enlightenment factors, and, eventually, to liberation.>> > > According to my reading of the teachings, the one thing that 'alone > results in the subsequent arising of kusala conditions which > eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, etc ...' would > satipatthana, but this cannot be developed without the repeated > hearing of and reflecting on the words of the Buddha. > > None of this would be what I think of as volitional activity. > > <> > > I hope I've clarified. Do you think the interpretation I've given is > reasonably open on the texts (I'm not asking you to agree with it, of > course ;-))? > > <<(This is not at all my understanding of the Dhamma, but I know that > you realize that. I do not consider the Dhamma as mainly descriptive > but as mainly prescriptive.)>> > > Yes, understood. > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19642 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:31am Subject: Typo Correction Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, all - In a message dated 2/15/03 10:52:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > with branches > accupying varying conditions > ========================= That should have been "with branches occupying varying positions." Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19643 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:42am Subject: hello Hello, and greetings to everyone on this list, My name is Prema Dasa. I live in Lawrence Kansas. I am new to buddhism and would like to learn more about it. I have read some books about buddhism, and have an idea how to practice mindfullness meditaion. Some time ago I read a short biography of a Thai monk named Phra Ajaan Lee and was very impressed with his life and teachings, and I would like to learn more. Thank you very much for allowing me to join your group. your friend, Prema 19644 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: aniccata Dear Htoo and Swee Boon, I have to translate Dhamma Issues on this very topic, and this prompts me to do so as soon as time allows. Htoo is completely right. As I said, I learnt something from this Dhamma Issue I have to translate and will have to amend the relevant chapter of my rupas. Nina op 13-02-2003 20:25 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas.Lakkhana is just a > characteristic.So,in real sense it is not a real rupa.It is not > influenced by Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara because it is just a > characteristic. > 19645 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma Hi Larry, speech intimation is a special kind of rupa that performs its function when speech is expressed by citta. There are both nama and rupa involved here. Same with bodily intimation, a special kind of rupa that performs its function when citta expresses a meaning by the body. Body, speech and mind is under another heading, we speak of kamma through body, speech and mind. Nina. op 13-02-2003 23:40 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > To me, "intimation" means "speech". So are you saying speech is rupa? > Speech seems to have its own category in the "body, speech and mind" > grouping. I assumed that speech = concept, but maybe there is more to it > than that. Let's let it be for awhile. Maybe clarity will dawn sometime > later. 19646 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] /Nice to write to you again Hi Janice, I hope you had a fun holiday, and perhaps collected a few envelopes ;-). Only the Chinese communities here cerebrated the Chinese New Year, so it is not such a big event. In Thailand, Chinese New Year is a big event too, because there are many Chinese descents in Thailand. You ask a very good question (because it is hard to answer). Mindfulness is like, when you remember to do good things. For example, when you see somebody in need of help, instead of feeling bad, you remember to help them however you can. When a bug bites you, instead of squashing him or throwing him down on the floor, you put him down gently so he doesn't get hurt. There are many different kinds of mindfulness, but whenever you remember to 1) do something good, 2) avoid doing something bad, or 3) develop good qualities of the mind and also wisdom, these are all mindfulness. I hope this answer your question. If not, please let me know. Hope you write some more. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 10:48 PM > To: dsg > Subject: [dsg] /Nice to write to you again > > Do you mind to explain a little more > about mindfulness? Is it related to the buddha? 19647 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Kamma (was: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) I am a Buddhist from birth thru family upbringing. A Buddhist in name only and was only later totally surprised by the whole underlying explanation and categorization of almost all phenomena. It looks like represent the model of the truth I am looking for. The analysis of many phenomena is simply overhelming, clicks quite well and in itself is a total marvel. The amazing thing is it has been around more than 2,500 years and still it is not discovered or simply, deliberately ignored. Science has still a lot... no tons and tons to catch up with it. Then it may concur and coincide with it and that is - if science is swayed away from its correct course. Look at Galileo's case. Do not get me wrong. I am and still will be skeptical of Buddhism and that is called for by Buddha himself, who said - Do not believe just because someone says it is true. As a side note: Gotama Buddha is but only one of many Fully enlightened Buddha's. There are even more 'Not Fully enlightened Buddha's, who also of course reached Nibbana (or Nirvana). Thanks. Eddie Lou --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Eddie, > > I think this may have been your first message on DSG > (sometimes I’m not > sure;-)). Anyway, welcome either way and thanks for > posting some > interesting comments: > > --- Eddie Lou wrote: > > > All based on some kind of Karmic energy level > still to > > be discovered by science. > > > all our action (kamma) come into played and > everything > > is accountable and no administrator all automatic > as > > in the law of conservation of energy or other > physical > > laws. > ..... > This reminded me of some further comments U Narada > makes in “Guide to > Conditional Relations” based on commentary notes to > the Patthana, > concerning kamma condition. ‘Asynchronous kamma’ > refers to “the volition > which produces a result at a different instant of > time” as opposed to > conascent kamma or cetana which does not bring > results. > > “.....Although an asynchronous faultless or > faulty > volition arises for one thought-moment and then > ceases, this is not the > end of it. For a special force is left behind in > the mind’s successive > continuity so that at some time in the future, the > appropriate result of > that volition will be produced when the proper > conditions are > satisfied.............” > > He gives a helpful example from the > Paticcasamuppada-vibhanga commentary: > > “A person borrows money from another. This act of > borrowing is finalised > and ceases as soon as the money is received by the > borrower. But because > the money was borrowed, there is the indebtedness > to repay the loan > either in a lump sum or in instalments. The > borrower has to abide by his > promise to repay and this cannot be avoided by any > means. The main > concern here is not whether there has been the past > act of borrowing or > not, but the responsibility to repay the loan. Only > when the whole amount > has been paid will there be relief from this > responsibility. > > In a similar way, when an act of kamma is performed, > the kamma, before it > ceases, leaves behind a special force of > asynchronous kamma condition > which will, at some time in the future, produce an > appropriate result when > the conditions for its arising are satisfied. And > as long as the result > is not produced this indebtedness to kamma in the > round of rebirths is > ever present. The main concern here is not whether > there has been the past > act of kamma or not, but the indebtedness which will > surely produce a > result. But once a result is produced, the > indebtedness to kamma no longer > holds and no other result will be brought about > because of this particular > kamma. But if there is no opportunity for a result > to be produced, ie > kamma is no longer effective (ahosi kamma), then the > force of volition > ceases.” > > Later we read: > > “There is no place where materiality and mentality > are stored for their > continual arising and ceasing in succession. Just > as when a match is > struck a flame appears from nowhere and then > disappears, so also, when > object and base coincide consciousness and mental > factors arise from > nowhere, last for a thought-moment and then cease > and vanish altogether. > In this condition, volition, which is also an > ultimate reality, also > arises and ceases in the same fashion. > > “However, the force, which is left behind after > volition ceases, is not > destroyed and may be present for countless worlds in > the successive > continuity of a being, bound by craving, conceit and > wrong views, to > produce a result suddenly. The result cannot be > foreseen and seems to be > spontaneous. Indeed these forces give strange > results. As instances, all > of a sudden 1) a poor man wins a lottery and becomes > rich and 2) > presidents, prime ministers and national leaders are > assassinated or > gaoled.” > ***** > Hope to hear more from you Eddie and if you’d care > to add any info about > yourself, where you live or about your interest in > Buddhism, we’d all be > glad to hear. > > With metta, > > Sarah > ====== 19648 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: aniccata Hi, Nina (and Htoo) - In a message dated 2/15/03 1:18:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Htoo and Swee Boon, > I have to translate Dhamma Issues on this very topic, and this prompts me > to > do so as soon as time allows. Htoo is completely right. As I said, I learnt > something from this Dhamma Issue I have to translate and will have to amend > the relevant chapter of my rupas. > Nina > > op 13-02-2003 20:25 schreef htootintnaing op > htootintnaing@y...: > > > >Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas.Lakkhana is just a > >characteristic.So,in real sense it is not a real rupa.It is not > >influenced by Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara because it is just a > >characteristic. > > > > ============================ In fact, it's just a concept, isn't it? We never directly observe impermanence. We observe dhammas, and then we observe that they are no longer around. We CALL that being-present-at-one-time and not-being-present-at-a-later-time "impermanence". Likewise, dependent arising is concept-only. There occur dependently arisen dhammas, but dependent origination is concept-only. These are, of course, well grounded concepts, not imaginary, and, in fact, of supreme importance, but they are concepts, nonetheless. In abhidhamma, everything is either paramattha dhamma or pa~n~natta. Impermanence and paticcasamupada are pa~n~natti. (All the more reason to avoid speaking of pa~n~natti as nonexistent, I'd say.) To awaken to the truth of impermanence is actually to lose the belief in permanence and, ultimately, the sense of permanence with regard to conditioned dhammas. To awaken to the truth of not-self, is to lose the belief in (and ultimately the sense of) a core to be found in the "person" or in any dhamma, to lose the tendency towards reification. At least this is how I see the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19649 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 0:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Ken, When I say Buddha that is the Fully enlightened Buddha's and there are many of them and not the Not Fully enlightened Buddha's, who also reached Nibbana. That is what I had learnt (from one of my teacher or mentor - in modern term) and known of. About negative aspects of... issue, I think you hit it right, that is what I think it is not just warning against women but ALSO men as well from their respective opposite sex. It just happens that the event pointed in one direction against the women. In general, it is about craving or Tanha, which is driving our samsara cycle or bad loop. A good person never discriminates 'with volition' against another person for whatever reason. Frankly, I believe Buddha is a good person. We should look more relevant things and investigate before jumping into wrong conclusion. I would think it can be 'a continuing investigation', and I think Buddha will actually want that if he is still around us. Because Buddha said do not believe whatever just because someone says or even a lot of people say or tradition says so. Investigate yourself. This is in "Kalama Sutta", it is said but I do not have that Sutta. I am very impressed with preachings of many (I want to say 'ALL' but refrain) phenomena. The preachings read more like a text books of very high learning than story books. Very intricate, detailed and yet it seems click so well with what we know so far. Talking about ...created... it just happened to be like that and this is one of the questions I still have why all these samsara game plan who started all this I still have not real good answer to it. --- "kenhowardau " wrote: > Hello Eddie, > > You wrote: > ------ > > Ken, > > >You described it really good, that is what exactly > I > have read in one of the books. > > ----- > > > Thanks Eddie, I don't recall many of the details I > have > read about samsara but I know it's not a nice > place to be. > > You mentioned in passing, that the Buddha always > helped > those people at the extremes -- the worst and the > best -- > and not in between. If I understand you correctly, > you > are are referring to the men and women who attained > enlightenment soon after hearing the Dhamma. But > really, > all of them had 'only a little dust in their eyes.' > Even > though some of them had evil traits, they all had > enormous accumulations of panna . Even the serial > killer, Anguilimala, had lived the good life in many > previous existences. > > I think I may have seen that sutta you referred to > -- the > one about a man who was ready to join the sangha > except > he couldn't resist the beautiful woman to whom he > was > engaged. (Kom has given us a link, I will look it > up as > soon as I go on line.) As I remember it, he joined > the > sangha with the idea that it would give him access > to > fabulously beautiful women living in the deva > realms. > Later, he realised that the other monks found it > highly > amusing that he had actually become a monk to meet > girls, > and he lost his craving. > > After reading all the helpful messages on this > thread, I > see the warnings against women (or the opposite sex, > as > the case may be), purely as warnings against > attachment > to samsara. The Buddha said (somewhere), that there > is > nothing more attractive to a man than a woman and > nothing > more attractive to a woman than a man. So, women > (and > men) are the most obvious examples to give in > warning > against attachment. > > Kind regards > Ken H 19650 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Kamma (was: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) I want to add that Yep it is my first here in this group and hope to learn from all of you. Also one of my hobbies is science - Physical sciences like Physics, Chemistry, Biology in that order. Also computer Or Information technology. I am also interested in world affairs. I always try to be a good and real buddhist and try to see things "AS I" limited only by my small limited wisdom. I am or at least try to be open minded. However, I can be very stubborn if I feel I am correct but I do always try to check out if I am correct, given all the known (I try keep on learning) facts. I hope I answer your request. Thanks, Metta, Eddie. --- Eddie Lou wrote: > I am a Buddhist from birth thru family upbringing. > > A Buddhist in name only and was only later totally > surprised by the whole underlying explanation and > categorization of almost all phenomena. > > It looks like represent the model of the truth I am > looking for. The analysis of many phenomena is > simply > overhelming, clicks quite well and in itself is a > total marvel. > > The amazing thing is it has been around more than > 2,500 years and still it is not discovered or > simply, > deliberately ignored. > > Science has still a lot... no tons and tons to catch > up with it. Then it may concur and coincide with it > and that is - if science is swayed away from its > correct course. Look at Galileo's case. > > Do not get me wrong. I am and still will be > skeptical > of > Buddhism and that is called for by Buddha himself, > who > said - Do not believe just because someone says it > is > true. As a side note: Gotama Buddha is but only one > of > many Fully enlightened Buddha's. There are even more > 'Not Fully enlightened Buddha's, who also of course > reached Nibbana (or Nirvana). > > Thanks. > > Eddie Lou > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi Eddie, > > > > I think this may have been your first message on > DSG > > (sometimes I’m not > > sure;-)). Anyway, welcome either way and thanks > for > > posting some > > interesting comments: > > > > --- Eddie Lou wrote: > > > > > All based on some kind of Karmic energy level > > still to > > > be discovered by science. > > > > > all our action (kamma) come into played and > > everything > > > is accountable and no administrator all > automatic > > as > > > in the law of conservation of energy or other > > physical > > > laws. > > ..... > > This reminded me of some further comments U Narada > > makes in “Guide to > > Conditional Relations” based on commentary notes > to > > the Patthana, > > concerning kamma condition. ‘Asynchronous kamma’ > > refers to “the volition > > which produces a result at a different instant of > > time” as opposed to > > conascent kamma or cetana which does not bring > > results. > > > > “.....Although an asynchronous faultless > or > > faulty > > volition arises for one thought-moment and then > > ceases, this is not the > > end of it. For a special force is left behind in > > the mind’s successive > > continuity so that at some time in the future, the > > appropriate result of > > that volition will be produced when the proper > > conditions are > > satisfied.............” > > > > He gives a helpful example from the > > Paticcasamuppada-vibhanga commentary: > > > > “A person borrows money from another. This act of > > borrowing is finalised > > and ceases as soon as the money is received by the > > borrower. But because > > the money was borrowed, there is the indebtedness > > to repay the loan > > either in a lump sum or in instalments. The > > borrower has to abide by his > > promise to repay and this cannot be avoided by any > > means. The main > > concern here is not whether there has been the > past > > act of borrowing or > > not, but the responsibility to repay the loan. > Only > > when the whole amount > > has been paid will there be relief from this > > responsibility. > > > > In a similar way, when an act of kamma is > performed, > > the kamma, before it > > ceases, leaves behind a special force of > > asynchronous kamma condition > > which will, at some time in the future, produce an > > appropriate result when > > the conditions for its arising are satisfied. And > > as long as the result > > is not produced this indebtedness to kamma in the > > round of rebirths is > > ever present. The main concern here is not whether > > there has been the past > > act of kamma or not, but the indebtedness which > will > > surely produce a > > result. But once a result is produced, the > > indebtedness to kamma no longer > > holds and no other result will be brought about > > because of this particular > > kamma. But if there is no opportunity for a > result > > to be produced, ie > > kamma is no longer effective (ahosi kamma), then > the > > force of volition > > ceases.” > > > > Later we read: > > > > “There is no place where materiality and mentality > > are stored for their > > continual arising and ceasing in succession. Just > > as when a match is > > struck a flame appears from nowhere and then > > disappears, so also, when > > object and base coincide consciousness and mental > > factors arise from > > nowhere, last for a thought-moment and then cease > > and vanish altogether. > > In this condition, volition, which is also an > > ultimate reality, also > > arises and ceases in the same fashion. > > > > “However, the force, which is left behind after > > volition ceases, is not > > destroyed and may be present for countless worlds > in > > the successive > > continuity of a being, bound by craving, conceit > and > > wrong views, to > > produce a result suddenly. The result cannot be > > foreseen and seems to be > > spontaneous. Indeed these forces give strange > > results. As instances, all > > of a sudden 1) a poor man wins a lottery and > becomes > > rich and 2) > > presidents, prime ministers and national leaders > are > > assassinated or > > gaoled.” > > ***** > > Hope to hear more from you Eddie and if you’d care > > to add any info about > > yourself, where you live or about your interest in > > Buddhism, we’d all be > > glad to hear. > > > > With metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== 19651 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:41pm Subject: Abhidhamma Dear Group, Elsewhere there has been discussion as to whether there are sutta references to the Abhidhamma. The Gulissani Sutta was mentioned as proof that there was. (My only texts are the Wisdom Discourses by DN by Maurice Walshe, MN B. Nanomoli and B. Bodhi, and SN by B.Bodhi.) In looking up this sutta, I found it in MN 69 Gulissani sutta (p572) "A forest-dwelling bhikkhu should apply himself to the higher Dhamma and the higher Discipline." [note 693] This seemed a clear reference to Abhidhamma, but in reading the note, and a subsequent reference to another note, I am not so sure. Note 693 says: "abhidhamma abhivinaya. MA says that he should apply himself to learning the text and commentary to the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the 'Vinaya Pitaka. This is clearly anachronistic. On Abhidhamma in the context of the suttas, see note 362. Although there is no corresponding body of literature called "Abhivinaya," it seems probable the word refers to a systematic and analytical approach to the study of the Vinaya, perhaps that embeded in the Sutta-vibhanga of the Vinaya Pitaka." Note 363 appears in the MN 32 Mahagosinga Sutta (p. 307): "Here, friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher Dhamma [n. 362] and they question each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuiminated this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." Note 362 says: "Abhidhamma: Though the word cannot refer here to the Pitaka of that name - obviously the product of a phase of Buddhist thought later than the Nikayas - it may well indicate a systematic and analytical approach to the doctrine that served as the original nucleus of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. In a careful study of the contexts in which the word "Abhidhamma" occurs in the Sutta Pitakas of several early recensions, the Japanese Pali scholar Fumimaro Watanabe concludes that the Buddha's own disciples formed the conception of Abhidhamma as an elementary philosophical study that attempted to define, analyse, and classify dhammas and to explore their mutual relations. See his 'Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma, pp. 34-36." So, my question is - are there any references in the Suttas which irrefutably mention the Abhidhamma Pitaka by name? I do not have access to Watanabe's book, but wonder if his conclusions are disputed, and what are the implications if the Abhidhamma is considered to be a product of the Buddha's disciples? metta, Christine 19652 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 1:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Thanks. One comment: the URL or website should only be upto 2nd last qualifier or subdirectories or http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ and NOT http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-02.h and ud3-02.h means Section# 3 and bullet item# 2. Otherwise, it will say website not found. Thanks again, Kom. --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Eddie & Ken, > > Here's the sutta: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-02.h > tml > > V. Nanda is praised by the Buddha to be one who > excelled in > protecting the faculties. > > kom > > ps: I can appreciate the saying that the Buddha is > the tamer > of all men who can be tamed in this sutta. I don't > see how > it is related to the titled topic. It is normal: > there is > always a better > looking/sounding/smelling/tasting/tangible > thing. Don't we look all our lives for these > things? > 19653 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/15/03 4:42:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > So, my question is - are there any references in the Suttas which > irrefutably mention the Abhidhamma Pitaka by name? I do not have > access to Watanabe's book, but wonder if his conclusions are > disputed, and what are the implications if the Abhidhamma is > considered to be a product of the Buddha's disciples? > > ============================== Didn't the entire tipitaka post-date the Buddha? If so, there wouldn't be a sutta reference to the "Sutta Pitaka" either. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19654 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice Hi, All, One possibility is - vipassana practice itself, whether under guidance or not. I myself know precious few of practical vipassana, which is how Gotama attained Full and Final enlightment. I heard it is very effective. I remember there is a program in notorious Tihar prison in India administered by Goenka (his mentor is Sayagyi U Ba Khin) that shows great results in changing hard core criminals' attitude altogether. I think I still have the paper article (Asiaweek) but no computer scanner. Maybe you want to share some of your 18 years of vipassana experience and we can learn from it. Thx. --- "Diny@" wrote: > Hi Smallchap. > > I asked experience of Vipassana to share so that it > can help us ( like me ) to > get charge. If you are practising for 18 yrs great , > definately life goes on > usually for all , but after Vipassana did it help > you in doing Good Job, > thinking attitude or is it same as it was before 18 > yrs ?? > > About Transform i mean that did you help others too > ??? > > metta > - Dinesh > > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi Smallchap, > > > > Good to see you posting after a looong > break;-);-)So glad you're still > > around. > > > > --- "smallchap " > wrote: > > > > > > I have been practising anapana/vipassana for > about 18 years. It has > > > not transformed my life. Life goes on as usual > for me. I have not > > > transformed others' lives too through vipassana. > Lives go on as > > > usual for them too. > > > > > > :) > > ..... > > I smiled a lot when I read these comments.....yes, > life has to go on as > > usual for all of us. Looking for some kind of > transformation can be a > > mistake I think and is usually just an indication > of more lobha and desire > > for some special results. > > > > > > > > smallchap > > > p.s. I consider life transform to be from a > puthujjana to an ariya. > > ..... > > Good answer! > > > > I'm waiting for Dinesh's response..... > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== 19655 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: aniccata Hi, all - In a message dated 2/15/03 2:53:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, Nina (and Htoo) - > ======================== I should have written "Hi, Nina (and Htoo and Swee Boon) -". Sorry, Swee Boon - just an oversight. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19656 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:19pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Hi Howard and All, I think the point of my post was that I was asking if the word 'Abhidhama' is used anywhere in the Suttas to indisputably mean the body of teaching that was eventually written down in the Tipitaka. I have been taught that the Teachings were not written down until about four hundred years after the death of the Buddha. I have been taught that they were recited at the First Council by Ananda and Upali; that they were passed on orally within the Sangha by trained groups of Reciters; that they were all written down at the same time in Sri Lanka on Palm Leaves and divided into 'three baskets' at that point, from where we get the term Tipitaka. The understanding I had was that the Three Baskets were equally authoritative and revered. My understanding has been that they are all saying the same thing in different ways and with different emphases. There is a promotion elsewhere of the opinion that the Abhidhamma is somehow a later development and not the direct work of the Buddha. Or that perhaps it was a teaching only taught to a handful of disciples. Something I don't believe the Buddha did. I had believed there would be cross references in each to the others, and so my last post came to be written when I needed clarification on this point. Often one sees only the Suttas being acknowledged as the only true Teachings of the Buddha. Were there Arahats at the Third Council who recited the Abhidhamma? Were there Arahats at the Fourth Council who recited the Tipitaka entire? If all the Teachings were written down at the one time, how can one pitaka be valued over the other two? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - Didn't the entire tipitaka post-date the Buddha? If so, there wouldn't > be a sutta reference to the "Sutta Pitaka" either. > > With metta, > Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > Elsewhere there has been discussion as to whether there are sutta > references to the Abhidhamma. The Gulissani Sutta was mentioned as > proof that there was. (My only texts are the Wisdom Discourses by > DN by Maurice Walshe, MN B. Nanomoli and B. Bodhi, and SN by > B.Bodhi.) > > In looking up this sutta, I found it in MN 69 Gulissani sutta (p572) > "A forest-dwelling bhikkhu should apply himself to the higher Dhamma > and the higher Discipline." [note 693] > This seemed a clear reference to Abhidhamma, but in reading the note, > and a subsequent reference to another note, I am not so sure. > > Note 693 says: > "abhidhamma abhivinaya. MA says that he should apply himself to > learning the text and commentary to the Abhidhamma Pitaka and > the 'Vinaya Pitaka. This is clearly anachronistic. On Abhidhamma in > the context of the suttas, see note 362. Although there is no > corresponding body of literature called "Abhivinaya," it seems > probable the word refers to a systematic and analytical approach to > the study of the Vinaya, perhaps that embeded in the Sutta-vibhanga > of the Vinaya Pitaka." > > Note 363 appears in the MN 32 Mahagosinga Sutta (p. 307): > "Here, friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higher > Dhamma [n. 362] and they question each other, and each being > questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk > rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could > illuiminated this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood." > > Note 362 says: > "Abhidhamma: Though the word cannot refer here to the Pitaka of that > name - obviously the product of a phase of Buddhist thought later > than the Nikayas - it may well indicate a systematic and analytical > approach to the doctrine that served as the original nucleus of the > Abhidhamma Pitaka. In a careful study of the contexts in which the > word "Abhidhamma" occurs in the Sutta Pitakas of several early > recensions, the Japanese Pali scholar Fumimaro Watanabe concludes > that the Buddha's own disciples formed the conception of Abhidhamma > as an elementary philosophical study that attempted to define, > analyse, and classify dhammas and to explore their mutual relations. > See his 'Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and > Abhidhamma, pp. 34-36." > > So, my question is - are there any references in the Suttas which > irrefutably mention the Abhidhamma Pitaka by name? I do not have > access to Watanabe's book, but wonder if his conclusions are > disputed, and what are the implications if the Abhidhamma is > considered to be a product of the Buddha's disciples? > > metta, > Christine 19657 From: bodhi2500 Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Hi Christine and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Howard and All, > > I think the point of my post was that I was asking if the > word 'Abhidhama' is used anywhere in the Suttas to indisputably mean > the body of teaching that was eventually written down in the > Tipitaka. I have been taught that the Teachings were not written > down until about four hundred years after the death of the Buddha. I'm not sure if this quote "indisputably" means the Abhidhamma as we know it today, but it seems to imply that the 3 divisions of teachings were around at the time of the Buddha. > "If, having asked for leave in regard to Suttana, she asks about Vinaya or > Abhidhamma,there is an offence of expiation".:Nun's Pacittiya XCV.Translation by I.B.Horner Take care Steve 19658 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma Hi Nina, Thanks for the clarification. I think I see the difference between concept and speech. Speech is a reality, an activity that causes results, while concept is abstract and has no causal function. But speech is made up of concepts. This is the part I don't understand. Does Patisambhidamagga have anything to say about the relationship between speech and concept? Larry 19659 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/15/03 6:21:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hi Howard and All, > > I think the point of my post was that I was asking if the > word 'Abhidhama' is used anywhere in the Suttas to indisputably mean > the body of teaching that was eventually written down in the > Tipitaka. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I was taking you too literally when you said "So, my question is - are there any references in the Suttas which irrefutably mention the Abhidhamma Pitaka by name?" My apologies. I expect that the answer to your question is probably "no", because the references you passed on from that other list are probably the best sort to be found, and it isn't absolutely clear that they refer to what became embodied in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the references to "abhidhamma" mentioned there didn't constitute some sort of predecessor of that material. ------------------------------------------------------ I have been taught that the Teachings were not written > > down until about four hundred years after the death of the Buddha. I > have been taught that they were recited at the First Council by > Ananda and Upali; that they were passed on orally within the Sangha > by trained groups of Reciters; that they were all written down at the > same time in Sri Lanka on Palm Leaves and divided into 'three > baskets' at that point, from where we get the term Tipitaka. The > understanding I had was that the Three Baskets were equally > authoritative and revered. My understanding has been that they are > all saying the same thing in different ways and with different > emphases. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that there are some things in the Abhidhamma such as bhavanga citta, and five lower jhanas instead of four, and the details of the sequence of various types of cittas in the abhidhammic psychology of cognition that are not to be found in the suttas, but, for the most part, the Abhidhamma Pitaks contains a detailed systemization of the teachings recorded in the suttas. Whatever its origins, and to whatever extent it may embellish the teachings in the suttas, it appears to be an amazing piece of work. -------------------------------------------------------- > > There is a promotion elsewhere of the opinion that the Abhidhamma is > somehow a later development and not the direct work of the Buddha. Or > that perhaps it was a teaching only taught to a handful of disciples. > Something I don't believe the Buddha did. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: He explicitly said that he is not a closed-fist teacher, holding things back. On the other hand, he taught things differently to different people based on their needs and capacities, so conceivably he taught abhidhamma to a restricted audience. The claim, of course, is that he taught it directly to Sariputta, who took it from there. ---------------------------------------------------------- I had believed there > > would be cross references in each to the others, and so my last post > came to be written when I needed clarification on this point. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand. ----------------------------------------------------------- Often > > one sees only the Suttas being acknowledged as the only true > Teachings of the Buddha. Were there Arahats at the Third Council > who recited the Abhidhamma? Were there Arahats at the Fourth > Council who recited the Tipitaka entire? > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: How could we really verify this one way or the other? (One would hope that historians and archeologists could shed some light on this - provide some evidence one way or the other.) ----------------------------------------------------------- If all the Teachings were > > written down at the one time, how can one pitaka be valued over the > other two? > > metta, > Christine > > ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19660 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Dear Howard & Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Howard: > How could we really verify this one way or > the other? (One would hope > that historians and archeologists could shed some > light on this - provide > some evidence one way or the other.) > -------------------------------------------------- > --------- > I agree with Howard that how can we prove any of it (not just abhidhamma) that all (or some) are the Buddha's teachings. Here is when this saying is most appropriate: he who sees the dhamma sees the Buddha. We might not be able to see the "dhamma" right now, but we can learn a bit at a time about other things that we can see. By learning what appears now as they truly are, we learn more about what the Buddha truly taught, and not just stories that we hear from other people. Stories, more cross-referencing, more historical evidence, are not ways that would eliminate one's doubt (completely). As soon as somebody throw in some disagreeing "analysis" and "facts", we are shaken from what we hear/believe before. But if we truly know and understand the evidence that is appearing right in front of us, then we are less likely to be shaken: the evidence is indisputable. Wisdom is a truly wonderful quality: it allows us to see things as they are, as the Buddha has taught them. kom Weight Age Gender Female Male 19661 From: Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Htoo Naing, I don't understand how pannatta is the object of jhana. What does that mean? Is the object of jhana a word or idea attached to a visualization or 'sensualization' (as with touch in breath meditation)? In Way 50 (Satipatthana Commentary) there is the following: "It is said that a young bhikkhu went with a novice to get wood for tooth-cleaners. The novice getting out of the road proceeded in front to a place in search of wood and saw a corpse. Meditating on it he produced the first absorption, and making the factors of the absorption a basis for developing insight realized the first three fruitions of arahantship, while examining the conformations [sankhare sammasanto], and stood having laid hold of the subject of meditation for realizing the path of full arahantship." L: What would be the role of pannatta in this jhana? Would there be a visualization or similar dream-like experience? What are "the conformations"? Thanks for your help. Larry ps: I have read several accounts of children entering absorption by focusing on their names. Is this jhana? 19662 From: James Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: Adults and kids.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > > Hello James! Happy EARLY chinese new year! (from Hong > Kong) I was wondering if do you have any siblings? > and are they as annoying as mine(heehee) well my > THREE brothers are VERY annoying... > > I really enjoyed the tale called"The Great Monkey > King" and how long did it take you to type the whole > thing out? Well it must have taken you at least 15 > mins. > > I read this REALLY good book called "The Little > Prince". When you told me that some adults are > just like kids, it just reminded me of this book. > Well if you didn't read it (im sure you did) then I > recommended. And also since you mentioned that some > adults are as childish as kids, then do you know who > is Pdiddy or Usher? > > I also wanted to ask you what got you into Buddhism??? > > Plz reply asap! > Thx > from Jan! Hi Star Kid Jan! Happy Chinese New Year to you too! Sorry it took me a while to respond but I got sidetracked a bit. Yes, I did have siblings, but not anymore. I had a brother and a sister but they have both died. My brother died from using illegal drugs and my sister died from a brain hemorrhage. I miss them but hope they were reborn into better lives than the ones they had. I didn't actually type `The Great Monkey King' for you; I cut and pasted it from the Internet. I think that if suddenly you couldn't cut and paste things from the Internet, I would die!…Right on the spot! ;-) Also, I haven't read the book `The Little Prince', but I hope to one day. This is the second time I have read a reference to it. I saw the movie but I bet the book is better. You ask me what got me into Buddhism. Well, that is not a simple answer, really. But I will tell you all about it, since it is interesting for an American to become interested in Buddhism… especially to the extent that I am. But Jan, I don't know what religion you are and I don't mean to offend you in anyway. You don't have to believe what I believe, but I am going to tell you everything, since you asked. When I first heard the story of the Buddha and how he knew, just knew, that there must be more to life than what he was experiencing, I felt a deep kinship with Him. I had the same kinds of questions and strong need to find the answers to life starting at the age of 10. Even at that young age, I knew that everything in life, all questions, lead directly to religion. I just didn't know WHAT religion. My parents didn't have any religion and seemed uninterested in the whole area. I didn't know why I was this way, but the need to find a religion; needing a guiding force in my life grew very strong in me. First I tried Christianity. I went to Sunday school with a childhood friend for about two months. I learned all about Jesus and what the Bible teaches about his life. After two months, and an argument with the Sunday school teacher, I had had enough (Yes, I started arguing religion at 11-years-old! And still haven't stopped! Hehehe..). It did not make any sense to me whatsoever that a `Father' would allow the death of his `Son' for the sins of the world. Even at 11-years-old, I could see plainly that Christians had entirely the wrong idea as to the meaning of life; and that what Christianity taught me did not answer any of my questions; actually, it just raised more questions! My Sunday school teacher told me that I needed to have `faith' in those things I didn't understand. In other words, I needed to be unthinking and accepting of anything told to me for the rest of my life, with the blind hope that I will be rewarded for this ignorance when I die. I said, "No Thank You" and rejected Christianity forever (But I never rejected Jesus or the pure teachings of Jesus: Love, Forgiveness, Gentleness, and `Finding the Kingdom of Heaven Within'). On and off, I read about different world religions and found myself most attracted to Asian poetry and philosophy. I was especially drawn to Taoism and Buddhism. I chose Taoism through most of high school because it didn't require meditation. I didn't think I could do meditation. I thought I would `feel silly' and if anyone found out they would make fun of me. But Taoism only made me feel calm and peaceful while I was reading books about it, when I put the books down, feelings of doubt, insecurity, fear, and anger would come rushing back into my mind. After three years of this in high school. I decided Taoism wouldn't work for me either; I needed to try to meditate and become a Buddhist. I started meditation shortly after I started college. You know, I wasn't born into Buddhism, I only knew about it what I had read. And I could clearly read that you couldn't be a Buddhist unless you meditated. Meditation was the key to discovering what the Buddha taught. When I found out that there were Buddhists who did not meditate, I was shocked. I wondered if they even knew what Buddhism is. Honestly, I didn't think they did or do. Of everything I have read on Buddhism, if a person chooses not to meditate (in some form or another) and doesn't make a sincere effort to practice mindfulness, that person isn't a true Buddhist. I decided that if I was going to try out this religion, I was going to do it right or not at all. So I started to meditate. I felt silly at first, but I locked my bedroom door, didn't let my parents know what I was doing, and sat for just 10 minutes that first time. It was hard! I didn't realize how out of control my mind was until I sat down that first time. I did not like that at all. I swore to myself that I would keep doing meditation until I got my mind settled down so that I could gain some benefit. I saw that what the Buddha taught was true; MY MIND WAS OUT OF CONTROL! I gained many benefits starting almost immediately after I first started meditating. I gained the benefits of: less fear, calmness, openness, acceptance, non-jealousy, empathy, friendliness, and compassion. Now, I didn't become a perfect person, and the influence of other people can often get me off the Buddhist path, I was considerably a better person than I was before. Seeing that meditation gave me benefits that lasted long after I meditated, I concluded that Buddhism was the religion for me. The Buddha said for everyone to test for himself or herself what he taught. He didn't say to accept what he taught on blind faith, like the Christians told me I should do with their religion. By meditating, I experienced for myself the first two of his Noble Truths: 1. That Life is Suffering (I felt that since I was 10), 2. This suffering is caused by craving and desire (I discovered this more through meditation.). Even at this point in my meditative life, I have not experienced fully the next two Noble Truths of the Buddha: 3. This suffering can be eliminated; and 4. The way to end this suffering is by following the Eightfold Path. I don't know this first-hand to be true yet because I am not enlightened. I am still haunted by suffering caused by desire on a daily basis; but considerably less than before I started meditating. However, my thinking mind tells me that if the Buddha was correct about 1 and 2, then he is more than likely correct with 3 and 4. After all, just one and two got me a lot farther to finding the answers than any other religion had. I made the decision to become a Buddhist for the rest of my life and to experience first-hand the rest of the Buddha's teachings. I took refuge in the Triple Gem; The Buddha, The Dharma, and the Shanga. I guess I do have some faith; I have faith in the Buddha, his teachings, and what others, wiser than myself, teach me. The Buddha laid everything on the table and let me make my choice. I couldn't ask for a better religion than that. So, that is my story Jan. I hope you enjoyed it. If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask! Metta, James 19663 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 41/Right concentration (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Swee Boon I earlier gave a fairly general response to this post, but would like to follow up with some comments on specific passages you have quoted. --- "nidive " wrote: ... SB: Samatha (tranquility or jhana absorption) is not necessary for the development of insight or the arising of the path moment. But Right Concentration is necessary for the development of insight and the arising of the path moment. Jon: Yes, this is how I would see it, too. SB: Right Concentration should be understood as: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html Jon: An interesting passage. My paraphrase of it would be as follows: At any moment of insight into the impermanence (arising and falling away) of any of the fundamental phenomena (5 khandhas), right concentration is also being developed. I'd be interested to know if this is your reading also. Jon 19664 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Hi Christine & All, In addition to the references, commentary and B.Bodhi notes you gave (see in part at end of post), I think you’ll find it worthwhile to study the posts under Abhidhamma -its origins: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts In particular, please read the following posts which mention other references in addition and other relevant cross-references and information with regard to the First Council recital: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17027 (RobertK) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12658 (Sarah) ====================================================== I have read the comments and conclusions of just a few modern scholars such as those by Professor Watanabe which B.Bodhi referred to (on line if I remember). They draw on other sects or schools that of course do not accept the Pali Canon and its commentaries as being authoritative in all regards, hence the divisions and the reconvening of the Councils in the early days as well. In the end, it’s a personal matter, and everyone is free to pursue what they find of most value. As others have mentioned, doubts and confusions will never be removed by 'external' or 'historical' references, but nonetheless, let me just add some comments made by U Narada, the translator of the Patthana (Conditional Relations -5th book of Abhidhamma Pitaka) into English as well as The Guide and also the third book, the Dhatukatha (Discourse on Elements): QUOTE ***** "The Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time. This can be proved from the following passages in the Book of Discipline, vol 111: a)"p.415 "Not given leave means: without asking (for permission). Should ask a question means: if, having asked for leave in regard to Suttanta, she asks about discipline or about Abhidhamma, there is an offence of expiation. If, having asked for leave in regard to Abhidhamm, shes asks about Suttanta or about Discipline, there is an offence of expiation." b) "p.42 "There is no offence if, not desiring to disparage, he speaks, saying: "Look here, do you master suttantas or verses or what is extra to dhamma (i.e. Abhidhamma)and afterwards you will master discipline’; if he is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer." "These passages clearly show that Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time because rules about it were laid down by Him. c)"Also in Middle Length Sayings 1, p.270.....Gosinga sal-wood.......Further dhamma...*....Mogallana is a talker on dhamma** Footnotes * "It is Abhidhamma and it is specifically stated in the Burmese Editions.... ** "Moggallana is called chief of those of psychic power, Ai,23. MA ii,256 explains that ‘abhidhamma-men, having come to knowledge of subtle points, having increased their vision, can achieve a supermundane state’. Non-abhidhamma-men get muddled between ‘own doctrine’(sakavaada) and ‘other doctrine’ (paravaada)." d)"Again, at the time The Buddha returned to Sankassanagara from Tavatimsa, the realm of 33 gods, Sariputta, in Sariputta Sutta, unttered the following in praise of The Buddha: "Erst have I never seen Nor heard of one with voice So sweet as his who came From Tusita to teach." (Suttanipata verse No 955, transl by E.M. Hare, p.139) ...... "This verse is also found in Mahaniddesa (Sixth Synod, p.386), where there is a detailed commentary on it. The following is the commentary on the first line: "At the time The Buddha, after having resided for the period of Lent on the Pandukambala Stone at the foot of the Coral tree in Tavatimsa, came down to Sankassanagara.......... "When Sariputta, based on the methods given by The Buddha, preached Abhidhamma to his pupils, The Buddha not only stated that He had expounded the Abhidhamma in Tavatimsa but also narrated this Sariputta Sutta to be left behind as evidence of having done so for the later generations. The Mahaniddesa was included in the Three Councils.
e) "Besides, Peta-vatthu (Sixth Synod Edn p 159) states: 1) "At that time The Buddha, the Exalted One, was residing on the Pandukambala Stone at the foot of the Coral tree in Tavatimsa (for expounding the Abhidhamma)........ f) "Moreover, in the Buddhavamsa, it is stated in:- 1)Dipankara Buddhavamsa: "At the time when Dipankara buddha expounded the dhamma in Tavatimsa, 90,000 crores of devas and brahmas realised the four Noble Truths by path-knolwedge on three occasions." < simialar references for 2)Mangala Buddhavamsa and 3)Sobhita Buddhavamsa> 4) Dhammadassi Buddhavamsa: "At the time when Dhammadassi Buddha returned to the human world after expounding Dhamma in Tavatimsa, 100 crores of devas and brahmas assembled for the second time." .......... "The Abhidhamma, which deals with realities, is the province of Omniscience, but for those who are of the opinion that it was not expounded by The Buddha and yet cannot ascribe it to anyone else, the above extracts are given to prove definitely that it was expounded by The Buddha. This should clear up all doubts about the matter. (According to the commentary, the word ‘dhamma’ in the above extracts denotes Abhidhamma - Dhammanti Abhidhamma - as there is no other teaching besides Abhidhamma that could be expounded.)" ***** I hope this helps. I have most the texts given so I can add more details if requested. I’m also happy to discuss any articles, such as the reference B.Bodhi gave in more detail. I'll be glad to hear any further feedback. Metta, Sarah ------- Christine: >>In looking up this sutta, I found it in MN 69 Gulissani sutta (p572) "A forest-dwelling bhikkhu should apply himself to the higher Dhammaand the higher Discipline." [note 693] This seemed a clear reference to Abhidhamma, but in reading the note,and a subsequent reference to another note, I am not so sure. Note 693 says: "abhidhamma abhivinaya. MA says that he should apply himself tolearning the text and commentary to the Abhidhamma Pitaka andthe 'Vinaya Pitaka. This is clearly anachronistic. On Abhidhamma inthe context of the suttas, see note 362. Although there is nocorresponding body of literature called "Abhivinaya," it seemsprobable the word refers to a systematic and analytical approach tothe study of the Vinaya, perhaps that embeded in the Sutta-vibhangaof the Vinaya Pitaka." Note 363 appears in the MN 32 Mahagosinga Sutta (p. 307): "Here, friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talk on the higherDhamma [n. 362] and they question each other, and each beingquestioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talkrolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu couldilluiminated this Gosinga Sala-tree Wood.">> ============================================== 19665 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on AN IV, 170 Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: ... SB: Regarding the second type of arahant: "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Ven. Henepola states that: ----------------------------------------------- The commentarial exegesis of this passage (found in the Majjhima Nikaya commentary) explains the procedure for developing serenity preceded by insight thus: Here, someone contemplates with insight the five aggregates of clinging as impermanent, etc. without having produced the aforesaid kinds of serenity (jhanic access and jhanic absorption); this is insight. With the completion of insight there arises in him mental one-pointedness having as object the renunciation of the phenomena produced therein; this is serenity. Thus first comes insight, afterwards serenity. In case it should be suspected that the second type of meditator still attains mundane jhana after developing insight, the subcommentary to the passage points out: "the mental one-pointedness he gains is right concentration of the supramundane path (magga- samma-samadhi) and its object, called 'renunciation' (vavassagga), is nibbana. The Anguttara subcommentary explicitly identifies the second meditator with the vipassanayanika: "He develops serenity preceded by insight': this is said with reference to the vipassanayanika". ----------------------------------------------- Jon: I have a comment here. I of course find the commentarial passage very interesting. But I would not characterise what is quoted here as a 'procedure for developing' serenity preceded by insight. I think it is more a matter-of-fact description of the serenity that accompanies insight attainment or the mind-states that follow insight attainment (either the fruition moment (phala-citta) that immediately follows the path moment (magga citta), or subsequent cittas that are tranquil by virtue of the absence of the kilesas that have been eradicated by the path-attainment). Just to add to the general picture, a note to the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (NDB) quotes the commentary as saying: "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to insight and then, based on insight, produces concentration (samadhi)." and the Tika as saying: "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassana-yanika)." So, to anticipate your Question (1) below, there is no reference here to mundane jhana, as I read the commentarial material. SB: Question (1): Does the translation of "tranquility" in Anguttara Nikaya IV.170, refer to the "full mental absorption" of both the mundane jhana and the supramundane path? How is this translation of "tranquility" different from that in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html Or am I too nitty-picky on these details? Sometimes it's pretty frustrating. Jon: No, you are not being too nitty-picky at all, and yes, I agree it's frustrating. However, it needs to be studied carefully and in considerable detail in order to be understood. Unfortunately, only selected parts of the commentaries are available to us in English. From that, though, it seems clear that the meaning depends very much on the context and could be any one or more of the following in a given case: mundane jhana, mundane access concentration, right concentration of the supramundane path (i.e., at moment of magga citta), or right concentration of the mundane path (i.e., at moment of insight). Perhaps we can look at the other suttas individually. I hope this helps (but sympathize with any continuing frustration). Jon 19666 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > What I would like to understand is what in your opinion is > the > difference between being a Buddhist and not being a Buddhist. As I > understand > the position you express in the following, there is no path of > practice; > whatever happens, happens - period. > > With metta, > Howard First I would like to make a couple of modifications/corrections to my answer to your previous post. I said that satipatthana was the one thing that 'alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, etc ...'. Actually, satipatthana is itself the kusala that 'leads to the arising of liberating wisdom, etc ...' (I slightly misread the passage from your post that I was responding to). As to the volitional or otherwise nature of the 2 factors of repeated hearing and reflecting on the teachings, I said 'neither of these is a volitional activity anyway'. What I meant, and should have said, was that neither is a *necessarily* volitional activity. I did not mean to suggest that these were never volitional activities. My apologies for any confusion. Now to your 2 questions above. 1. 'What in your opinion is the difference between being a Buddhist and not being a Buddhist?' Quite clearly it would be that fact that for a person who has not in this lifetime heard the teachings, there can be no direct awareness of/insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma/fundamental phenomenon. No matter to what extent that skill may have been developed in previous lifetimes, it always requires the renewed exposure to the teachings to manifest, such is the depth and intricacy of the truths to which the teachings relate. For the person who has heard and understood the teachings in this lifetime, there can be satipatthana/insight. I would see this as the key difference because it encompasses or points towards all that is unique to the Buddha's teaching. At moments of satipatthana/insight there is: - panna of a level that if further developed will eventually lead to the eradication of all kilesa - the effort/energy that is the guarding of the sense-doors or the abandoning of arisen kilesa, as appropriate, and hence the abandoning of the hindrances - the concentration that is necessary for panna to arise and perform its function - some appreciation, at however weak a level, of one of the 3 characteristics of all conditioned phenomena (anicca/dukkha/anatta) which, if developed, will eventually lead to the realisation of the Four Noble Truths and also any other necessary mundane path factors (the first 3 of the above factors are of course mundane samma-ditthi, mundane samma-vayama/the 4 samma-padhanas, and mundane samma-samadhi). Moments of satipatthana/insight are the highest respect that can be paid to the Buddha/the Triple Gem by one not yet enlightened. Likewise, moments at which are being developed the necessary conditions for satipatthana/insight to arise are also moments of paying respect to the Triple Gem (or, if you like 'being a Buddhist' -- although that is not a term I would use). 2. 'As I understand [your position], there is no path of practice; whatever happens, happens - period.' If that was my position, then it would be in defiance of the principle of cause and result. So obviously, it is not my position ;-)) I am wondering if you are drawn to the conclusion of 'no path of practice' because I have said I do not see conventional volition as having a particular role in the practice. I would like to have a closer look at this issue of 'volition'. I think anyone who has an appreciation of the teachings and who sees the value in developing the path has all the conventional volition that is needed to do whatever they see as necessary to achieve that. And conversely, without that appreciation a person would not have the 'volition' to develop the path. So the key factor is the appreciation of the urgency, rather than the 'will to do'. In fact, if you think about it, the better a person appreciates the urgency of the task, the more 'innate' volition/energy there is and the less conventional volition/exertion is needed. We can see this quite easily, for example, in young kids learning their lessons. The less gifted ones have to exert much more effort, be more 'volitional', than the smarter ones to learn the same things. This apparent paradox is easily explained in dhamma terms by the fact that the path-factor that is energy/effort is accumulated, along with the path-factor that is wisdom, with each and every moment of insight that occurs. This means that the more that understanding into the true nature of dhammas has been accumulated, the greater also the accumulated energy/effort for that skill, and consequently the more natural the development/'practice' can be. It is this 'innate' effort/energy that is the key factor, rather than conventional volition or effort. I hope this makes my position a little clearer ;-)) Jon 19667 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Manual of Abh., new book. : Atthayojanaa? Dear Nina, Jon, Sarah and Dhamma friends How are you? And, Happy New Year! Nina asked: "Jon, what is the atthayojana?" Jon replied: "I haven't a clue, I'm afraid! This is going back some 20 to 25 years now" Suan came in. Atthayojana(a) is a kind of textual dictionary. When we think about a dictionary, we usually get an idea of an alphabetical list of words and their definitions. Not so with an atthayojanaa! An atthayojanaa provides words and their definitions, but instead of arranging them in the alphbetical order, follows the order of each and every sentence found in a text, defining everything found in each sentence all the way to the end of the text. In short, an atthayojanaa is a sentential and textual dictionary. A reader of an atthayojanaa should have learnt Pali first to get the most out of it. Although an atthayojanaa can be used as a translation of the original text, it is cumbersome to read so if you do not know Pali grammar. Atthayojanaas are written to serve as study aids for students and teachers of Pali language. They are also called nissayas (reliable things). When you have a Pali text and its atthayojanaa or nissaya, you no longer need to look up a dictionary for new unknown words. You just read your atthayojanaa at the right places corresonding to wherever you are in the original text. Atthyojanaas or Nissayas provide the most convenient way of learning syntax as well as new words in an original Pali text. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: 19668 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Kamma (was: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi Eddie Lou, Great post! That is, I agree with everything in it. So much truth underlying the religion. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Eddie Lou To: Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Kamma (was: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) > I am a Buddhist from birth thru family upbringing. > > A Buddhist in name only and was only later totally > surprised by the whole underlying explanation and > categorization of almost all phenomena. > > It looks like represent the model of the truth I am > looking for. The analysis of many phenomena is simply > overhelming, clicks quite well and in itself is a > total marvel. > > The amazing thing is it has been around more than > 2,500 years and still it is not discovered or simply, > deliberately ignored. > > Science has still a lot... no tons and tons to catch > up with it. Then it may concur and coincide with it > and that is - if science is swayed away from its > correct course. Look at Galileo's case. > > Do not get me wrong. I am and still will be skeptical > of > Buddhism and that is called for by Buddha himself, who > said - Do not believe just because someone says it is > true. As a side note: Gotama Buddha is but only one of > many Fully enlightened Buddha's. There are even more > 'Not Fully enlightened Buddha's, who also of course > reached Nibbana (or Nirvana). > > Thanks. > > Eddie Lou > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Hi Eddie, > > > > I think this may have been your first message on DSG > > (sometimes I'm not > > sure;-)). Anyway, welcome either way and thanks for > > posting some > > interesting comments: > > > > --- Eddie Lou wrote: > > > > > All based on some kind of Karmic energy level > > still to > > > be discovered by science. > > > > > all our action (kamma) come into played and > > everything > > > is accountable and no administrator all automatic > > as > > > in the law of conservation of energy or other > > physical > > > laws. > > ..... > > This reminded me of some further comments U Narada > > makes in "Guide to > > Conditional Relations" based on commentary notes to > > the Patthana, > > concerning kamma condition. 'Asynchronous kamma' > > refers to "the volition > > which produces a result at a different instant of > > time" as opposed to > > conascent kamma or cetana which does not bring > > results. > > > > ".....Although an asynchronous faultless or > > faulty > > volition arises for one thought-moment and then > > ceases, this is not the > > end of it. For a special force is left behind in > > the mind's successive > > continuity so that at some time in the future, the > > appropriate result of > > that volition will be produced when the proper > > conditions are > > satisfied............." > > > > He gives a helpful example from the > > Paticcasamuppada-vibhanga commentary: > > > > "A person borrows money from another. This act of > > borrowing is finalised > > and ceases as soon as the money is received by the > > borrower. But because > > the money was borrowed, there is the indebtedness > > to repay the loan > > either in a lump sum or in instalments. The > > borrower has to abide by his > > promise to repay and this cannot be avoided by any > > means. The main > > concern here is not whether there has been the past > > act of borrowing or > > not, but the responsibility to repay the loan. Only > > when the whole amount > > has been paid will there be relief from this > > responsibility. > > > > In a similar way, when an act of kamma is performed, > > the kamma, before it > > ceases, leaves behind a special force of > > asynchronous kamma condition > > which will, at some time in the future, produce an > > appropriate result when > > the conditions for its arising are satisfied. And > > as long as the result > > is not produced this indebtedness to kamma in the > > round of rebirths is > > ever present. The main concern here is not whether > > there has been the past > > act of kamma or not, but the indebtedness which will > > surely produce a > > result. But once a result is produced, the > > indebtedness to kamma no longer > > holds and no other result will be brought about > > because of this particular > > kamma. But if there is no opportunity for a result > > to be produced, ie > > kamma is no longer effective (ahosi kamma), then the > > force of volition > > ceases." > > > > Later we read: > > > > "There is no place where materiality and mentality > > are stored for their > > continual arising and ceasing in succession. Just > > as when a match is > > struck a flame appears from nowhere and then > > disappears, so also, when > > object and base coincide consciousness and mental > > factors arise from > > nowhere, last for a thought-moment and then cease > > and vanish altogether. > > In this condition, volition, which is also an > > ultimate reality, also > > arises and ceases in the same fashion. > > > > "However, the force, which is left behind after > > volition ceases, is not > > destroyed and may be present for countless worlds in > > the successive > > continuity of a being, bound by craving, conceit and > > wrong views, to > > produce a result suddenly. The result cannot be > > foreseen and seems to be > > spontaneous. Indeed these forces give strange > > results. As instances, all > > of a sudden 1) a poor man wins a lottery and becomes > > rich and 2) > > presidents, prime ministers and national leaders are > > assassinated or > > gaoled." > > ***** > > Hope to hear more from you Eddie and if you'd care > > to add any info about > > yourself, where you live or about your interest in > > Buddhism, we'd all be > > glad to hear. > > > > With metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== 19669 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Larry - In a message dated 2/16/03 12:35:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > I don't understand how pannatta is the object of jhana. What does that > mean? Is the object of jhana a word or idea attached to a visualization > or 'sensualization' (as with touch in breath meditation)? > > In Way 50 (Satipatthana Commentary) there is the following: > > "It is said that a young bhikkhu went with a novice to get wood for > tooth-cleaners. The novice getting out of the road proceeded in front to > a place in search of wood and saw a corpse. Meditating on it he produced > the first absorption, and making the factors of the absorption a basis > for developing insight realized the first three fruitions of > arahantship, while examining the conformations [sankhare sammasanto], > and stood having laid hold of the subject of meditation for realizing > the path of full arahantship." > > L: What would be the role of pannatta in this jhana? Would there be a > visualization or similar dream-like experience? What are "the > conformations"? Thanks for your help. > > Larry > > ps: I have read several accounts of children entering absorption by > focusing on their names. Is this jhana? > > ============================= I'm sure Htoo will explain his meaning. One thing that occurs to me is that the initial meditation objects used to get one *into* an absorptive state, are pa~n~natti (such as the breath "as a whole" and not the individual rupic aspects of it, circular images, repeated sound-patterns such as mantras, candle flames, etc), the direct purpose not being insight, but concentration and calm. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19670 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 41/Right concentration (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Hi, Jon (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 2/16/03 7:03:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Swee Boon > > I earlier gave a fairly general response to this post, but would like > to follow up with some comments on specific passages you have quoted. > > --- "nidive " wrote: > ... > SB: > Samatha (tranquility or jhana absorption) is not necessary for the > development of insight or the arising of the path moment. > But Right Concentration is necessary for the development of insight > and the arising of the path moment. > > Jon: > Yes, this is how I would see it, too. > > SB: > Right Concentration should be understood as: > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? > There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising &falling > away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such > its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its > origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their > origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its > origination, such its disappearance.' > This is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html > > Jon: > An interesting passage. My paraphrase of it would be as follows: > At any moment of insight into the impermanence (arising and falling > away) of any of the fundamental phenomena (5 khandhas), right > concentration is also being developed. > > I'd be interested to know if this is your reading also. > > Jon > ============================ This certainly presents "right concentration" as concentrating on the flow of dhammas together with the observing of exactly *what* is arising at any time, and seeing the arising and the falling away. There is no doubt about it. There are other places where, with just as little doubt, the Buddha explicitly defines right concentration as the 1st four jhanas. In fact, he explicitly talks about the 4th jhana, the jhana characterized by equanimity, to be the state of perfect malleability and flexibility of mind for dhammic investigation, and this last may be what can lead us out of an apparent contradiction. Of course, one answer is that the Buddha considers the term 'right concentration' to be somewhat flexible. But another is that he considers both definitions to be correct and non-contradictory. There are suttas in which the ability to peruse the flow of dhammas remains unabated in the jhanas. (I quoted one once, but I forget which sutta it was. But one sutta suggestive of what I am saying is the Anupada Sutta which can be found at the following site: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/111-anupa da-e.htm) In that sutta, many ordinary-state abilities are said to remain even up through the jhana of no-thingness. With regard to that the sutta states the following: <> One other post I wrote once along the current lines said the following: <> Also, there are suttas in which the Buddha, himself, or, more correctly, the Bodhisatta, while "in" the 4th jhana, turned his attention to beings passing out of the world and into the world, turned his attention to past lives of his, and finally turned his attention to the uprooting of def ilements. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19671 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/16/03 8:27:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > > > > What I would like to understand is what in your opinion is > >the > >difference between being a Buddhist and not being a Buddhist. As I > >understand > >the position you express in the following, there is no path of > >practice; > >whatever happens, happens - period. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > First I would like to make a couple of modifications/corrections to > my answer to your previous post. I said that satipatthana was the > one thing that 'alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala > conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, > etc ...'. Actually, satipatthana is itself the kusala that 'leads to > the arising of liberating wisdom, etc ...' (I slightly misread the > passage from your post that I was responding to). > > As to the volitional or otherwise nature of the 2 factors of repeated > hearing and reflecting on the teachings, I said 'neither of these is > a volitional activity anyway'. What I meant, and should have said, > was that neither is a *necessarily* volitional activity. I did not > mean to suggest that these were never volitional activities. My > apologies for any confusion. > > Now to your 2 questions above. > > 1. 'What in your opinion is the difference between being a Buddhist > and not being a Buddhist?' > > Quite clearly it would be that fact that for a person who has not in > this lifetime heard the teachings, there can be no direct awareness > of/insight into the true nature of a presently arising > dhamma/fundamental phenomenon. No matter to what extent that skill > may have been developed in previous lifetimes, it always requires the > renewed exposure to the teachings to manifest, such is the depth and > intricacy of the truths to which the teachings relate. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Then you disbelieve in paccekabuddhas it would seem. --------------------------------------------------------- > > For the person who has heard and understood the teachings in this > lifetime, there can be satipatthana/insight. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Mmm, yes. There can be. There also might not be. What makes the difference? What past events make the difference? Also, is hearing and understanding sufficient? Are not actions taken for the development of mindfulness and concentration needed? The Buddha seems to have recommended them. ------------------------------------------------------- I would see this as the> > key difference because it encompasses or points towards all that is > unique to the Buddha's teaching. At moments of satipatthana/insight > there is: > - panna of a level that if further developed will eventually lead to > the eradication of all kilesa > - the effort/energy that is the guarding of the sense-doors or the > abandoning of arisen kilesa, as appropriate, and hence the abandoning > of the hindrances > - the concentration that is necessary for panna to arise and perform > its function > - some appreciation, at however weak a level, of one of the 3 > characteristics of all conditioned phenomena (anicca/dukkha/anatta) > which, if developed, will eventually lead to the realisation of the > Four Noble Truths > and also any other necessary mundane path factors (the first 3 of the > above factors are of course mundane samma-ditthi, mundane > samma-vayama/the 4 samma-padhanas, and mundane samma-samadhi). ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Why do moments of satipatthana/insight arise? Merely from hearing and understanding the dhamma? And, again, what about the paccekabuddhas? ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Moments of satipatthana/insight are the highest respect that can be > paid to the Buddha/the Triple Gem by one not yet enlightened. > > Likewise, moments at which are being developed the necessary > conditions for satipatthana/insight to arise are also moments of > paying respect to the Triple Gem (or, if you like 'being a Buddhist' > -- although that is not a term I would use). > > 2. 'As I understand [your position], there is no path of practice; > whatever happens, happens - period.' > > If that was my position, then it would be in defiance of the > principle of cause and result. So obviously, it is not my position > ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: When I say path of *practice*, I am referring to a (conventionally) volitionally adopted program of training and cultivation. Are you saying that listening to and reading and thinking over the Dhamma is the entirety of that? ----------------------------------------------------- > > I am wondering if you are drawn to the conclusion of 'no path of > practice' because I have said I do not see conventional volition as > having a particular role in the practice. I would like to have a > closer look at this issue of 'volition'. > > I think anyone who has an appreciation of the teachings and who sees > the value in developing the path has all the conventional volition > that is needed to do whatever they see as necessary to achieve that. > And conversely, without that appreciation a person would not have the > 'volition' to develop the path. So the key factor is the > appreciation of the urgency, rather than the 'will to do'. > > In fact, if you think about it, the better a person appreciates the > urgency of the task, the more 'innate' volition/energy there is and > the less conventional volition/exertion is needed. We can see this > quite easily, for example, in young kids learning their lessons. The > less gifted ones have to exert much more effort, be more > 'volitional', than the smarter ones to learn the same things. > > This apparent paradox is easily explained in dhamma terms by the fact > that the path-factor that is energy/effort is accumulated, along with > the path-factor that is wisdom, with each and every moment of insight > that occurs. This means that the more that understanding into the > true nature of dhammas has been accumulated, the greater also the > accumulated energy/effort for that skill, and consequently the more > natural the development/'practice' can be. It is this 'innate' > effort/energy that is the key factor, rather than conventional > volition or effort. > > I hope this makes my position a little clearer ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: It does. Yet we are far from close on this. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19672 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:43am Subject: mantra Hi Howard and all, I've been thinking about the use of concept as object of jhana this morning and it seems to me this is precisely mantra. I think the Visuddhimagga makes clear that sensory in-put, even in visualization, is only the background of the object, which is a concept (word and idea). People may not be familiar with this aspect of mantra but it is pretty much what I was taught in a Tibetan context. So, even though there is a lot of emphasis on tranquilization of the breath, when breath is used as an object, one shouldn't dwell on the subtleties of touch. The main object is the word "breath", or something similar, and the idea behind it. I think cultivating this is what is meant by vitakka and vicara, vitakka being the word and vicara being the idea. Ideally this word should evoke a sense of profundity. That is to say, unlimited importance and vast pervasiveness. Obviously this would depend on one's accumulations. I think this accords with reports of children focusing on their own name and slipping into samadhi. Also it may explain why there is so much difficulty with jhana these days. Not enough child-like innocence and sense of security. Larry 19673 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] mantra Hi, Larry - A word/sound pattern is only one possibility for meditation subject, and, in fact, I think it may *not* have been among the 40 that the Buddha listed. It is the case that my one unambiguously jhanic experience, which had elements of 5th and 6th jhana, happens to have been induced by mantra meditation. With meditation on the body (on the breath and bodily sensations) I often reach access concentration, and *possibly* the 1st jhana on occasion, but it was only via mantra meditation that I ever got beyond this level. (I seem to have an affinity towards sound.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/16/03 11:45:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and all, > > I've been thinking about the use of concept as object of jhana this > morning and it seems to me this is precisely mantra. I think the > Visuddhimagga makes clear that sensory in-put, even in visualization, is > only the background of the object, which is a concept (word and idea). > People may not be familiar with this aspect of mantra but it is pretty > much what I was taught in a Tibetan context. So, even though there is a > lot of emphasis on tranquilization of the breath, when breath is used as > an object, one shouldn't dwell on the subtleties of touch. The main > object is the word "breath", or something similar, and the idea behind > it. I think cultivating this is what is meant by vitakka and vicara, > vitakka being the word and vicara being the idea. Ideally this word > should evoke a sense of profundity. That is to say, unlimited importance > and vast pervasiveness. Obviously this would depend on one's > accumulations. I think this accords with reports of children focusing on > their own name and slipping into samadhi. Also it may explain why there > is so much difficulty with jhana these days. Not enough child-like > innocence and sense of security. > > Larry > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19674 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:43am Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: Migajala Sutta Dear friends, the Migajalasutta was discussed here before. I had a discussion with Frank, and you may be interested to read this. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 10:03:17 +0100 Aan: Onderwerp: Re: [Pali] Re: Migajala Sutta I wrote before: There are visible objects cognizable by the eye.... The same is said with regard to the other doorways. I can't hear enough of this, because I am too forgetful, I am attached to people, but this is conditioned. When visible object (colour) is experienced, sound is not experienced, and there is no thinking of the world full of people. We are alone for a short moment. In a way we are momentary recluses, because understanding must lead to detachment. But this is a long process. It is a learning process, but we do not have to go out of our way to begin now. The objects of understanding are near, right at hand: visible object, sound, lobha, dosa, etc. They all appear now. First objects have to be seen as only elements, so that personality belief can be eradicated. This happens when the first stage of enlightenment is attained, and finally at the realization of arahatship all craving is left behind. All those who develop the eightfold Path are leading a life that is brahmacariyaa. In the Commentary to the satipa.t.thaanasutta (Ven Soma), After this a discussion Frank wrote to me, see below (sorry, I snipped his post already, not doing justice to his words). Dear Frank, I understand what you mean, stressing a sense of urgency. A sense of urgency may be rather defective, but it can grow naturally by the development of pa~n~naa. People follow their inclinations, eschewing all the chitchat of company. I understand your accumulations very well. I prefer hearing the voices of the forest to hearing traffic noise. However, because of conditions we are in different cricumstances. We can verify that seeing here is no different from seeing over there. Seeing shows its characteristic, it experiences through the eyesense just what is visible, nothing else. Visible object is the only ruupa that can be seen. Seeing, hearing, they arise all the time, and mostly lobha arises in their train, but we do not notice this. It is our nature to cling to seeing and visible object, but whatever appears can be understood as a conditioned dhamma. In each sutta, be it the Migajalasutta, the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint, the Buddha speaks personally to us. He reminds us of our defilements at this moment. Remember, every sutta pertains to this moment. He exhorts us to develop understanding of "the all". Seeing is an experience, it is different from visible object and hardness which do not know anything. Everything can be the object of understanding, because whatever appears, it is only an element experienced through one of the six doors. Nina op 14-02-2003 03:47 schreef Frank Kuan op fcckuan@y...: (snipped) If we examine the whole body of pali > suttas, it's very clear to me that the training > process involves "abandoning company" for the vast > majority of the time. 19675 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula Sotapanna, Vipassana practice Hi Smallchap, op 15-02-2003 08:30 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > Nina, when you said second stage of vipassana ~naa.na, I believe you > mean it to be udayabbaya-nana? N: No. Paccaya- pariggaha-nana, knowing nama and rupa as conditioned realities. This is the second stage of tender insight, taruna vipassana~naa.na. S: > The author continued: > "The two knowledges, i.e. Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana and Paccya- > pariggaha-nana, are very important. They are the basic knowledges in > insight-meditations and they constitute the foundations for the > arising of ten vipassana-nanas in later stages. They are not included > in the vapassana-nanas because they do not concentrate on the three > characteristic marks (Tilakkhana) of existence. Nevertheless they > reveal the insight nature of the ultimate realities concerning nama > and rupa." N: Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, Paccaya-> pariggaha-nana, and sammassana ~naa.na, these three are tender insight. Then the first stage of Principal Insight, Maha-vipassana, is udayabbayaanupassanaa ~naa.na, seeing the arising and falling away of realities. But in different texts the counting of stages is somewhat different. Most important is: also tender insight is insight, not thinking. True, in the course of insight the three characteristics are penetrated more and more, but insight has to begin with knowing what nama is, an experience, and what rupa is, a reality that does not experience anything. The stages are described not only in the Visuddhimagga, but also in the Path of Discrimination. S: "They are important because they eliminate [smallchap: I believe the > author meant temprary eliminate] the wrong or evil views (miccha- > ditthi) and strengthens the right view (samma-ditthi)" > > So it seems to me that if one takes to vipassana meditation > diligently, straigth away one is a cula-sotapanna? >N: No. S: You are right in saying that there is no use to want or wish for > something. One will get no where by mere wishing and wanting. N: That is the point, from beginning to end. It is most difficult to detect the subtle clinging to self, to my result. A. Sujin asked us, when in Bangkok: Do you like to have awareness? We can find the answer for ourselves. Even after the third stage of tender insight there are vipassana defilements. One gained more assurance, it causes happiness, but, here is a pitfall. One gets stuck, even a Cula Sotapanna. No further development. We may know in theory that nama such as seeing is different from rupa such as visible object, but what about now? They are so much together. Still they have different characteristics, only direct understanding can know their difference. When there are conditions for direct awareness of one object at a time, understanding can grow. Here also a subtle clinging can be in the way. We may think without words very quickly of different realities and takes this for insight. Pitfall again. It is most helpful to know what one does not know yet. I follow your words: life goes on as usual. Yes, until arahatship and after. Realities do not change, but there can be more and more understanding. If we behave unnaturally, how could we know realities as they naturally appear? You were asked: can you help others? Yes, it is possible to help others to understand what vipassana is, to drop illusions about understanding and the lack of it. Anyway, the development of understanding is very slow and we cannot expect a transformation of character. By the way, I liked the straightforeward conversation you had. People always ask, what to do? The conditions for sati and pa~n~naa:Listening, contemplating in daily life, discussing, asking questions, and developing each kind of kusala, but not for one's own sake. S: On the other hand, however, for one who is ready to enter the magga > and the phala, perhaps a (strong) desire to escape from samsara is > necessary? (The Elder Sangharakkhita, Visuddhi Magga Chapter I, 135) N: I cannot think much about this, too far away. In the course of insight development panna turns away from conditioned realities and inclines to nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma. It is the development of panna that leads on. You use desire, it could be desire for deliverance without clinging. 19676 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:43am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 25 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 25 We read in the ³Kassapamandiya Jåtaka²(no. 312): At that time while the Buddha was residing in the Jeta Grove he spoke about an aged monk, and he gave this explanation of the Dhamma, with the words beginning with ³should foolish youths...² (appikassapamandiya). A young nobleman at Såvatthi, tradition says, saw the danger of sense pleasures and received ordination at the hands of the Buddha. Within a short time he attained arahatship. After that, when his mother had died, he persuaded his father and younger brother to become monks and to take residence in the Jeta Grove. Near the beginning of the rainy season they took their residence in a village where the requisites were easily obtained, so that they could observe the rainy season there. When the rainy season was over they returned to the Jeta Grove. The youthful monk ordered the novice, his younger brother, to let the elderly monk first take a rest, and then to take him along quietly. He himself would go ahead to prepare beforehand the lodgings in the Jeta Grove. The elderly monk walked very slowly and the novice butted him as it were with his head in order to make him walk on. Then the elderly monk turned back and started anew from the same point, and this went on until sunset, and when they reached the Jeta Grove it was already dark. The young monk who was the elder brother waited for them until the evening, he took a torch and went to meet them. When he asked the reason why they came so slowly, the elderly monk who was the father told him what had happened. On that day the young monk could not pay his respects to the Buddha. The next day when that monk went to pay his respects to the Buddha, the Buddha knew that that monk had arrived on the previous day but had not come to pay his respects. Therefore, he blamed the elderly monk and he said that also in a past life he had acted likewise. We may think why the elderly monk who was the father was blamed, and not the novice who was the younger son. Who should have patience? We read about a story of the past: Formerly, in a past life, the Buddha was the Bodhisatta. He became an ascetic in the Himålaya country. The elderly monk at that time was the father of the Bodhisatta. Their habitual conduct was almost the same as in the present life. Thus, in the rainy season they left the Himålaya country and went near the border of a city, and when the fruits had ripened in the Himålaya country they returned there. At that time the Bodhisatta made the two hermits stow away their requisites [31], he gave his father a bath, washed and anointed his feet and massaged his back. He set out a pan of charcoal and when his father had recovered from his fatigue he sat down near him. He said: ³Father, young boys are just like earthen vessels, they are broken in a moment.² Thus, young people lack patience. We read that the Bodhisatta said: ³Once they are broken it is not possible to mend them. Young boys may be abusive or censure others, but old men should bear with them patiently.² In order to admonish his father Kassapa, he said these stanzas: Should foolish youth scold, revile or blame, The wise who have paññå should endure All the wrongs done by young boys... Even wise men may quarrel, But quickly they can become closely united again. But fools part asunder like untempered clay, They cannot calm down their hate.² Footnote: 31. This happened, according to the Jåtaka, after the father and his son had arrived at the hermitage, where the Bodhisatta had gone before. 19677 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:43am Subject: FW: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co ,no 5 ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 10:53:55 +0100 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co ,no 5 Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co ,no 5 Sutta passage: Addasaa kho aayasmaa saariputto aayasmanta.m Raahula.m a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisinna.m palla'nka.m aabhujitvaa uju.m kaaya.m pa.nidhaaya parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa. Disvaana aayasmanta.m Raahula.m aamantesi : aanaapaanasati.m Raahula bhaavana.m bhaavehi, aanaapaanasati Raahula bhaavitaa bahuliikataa mahapphalaa hoti mahaanisa.msaa ti. The venerable Sariputta saw the venerable Rahula seated at the foot of that tree, cross- legged and body upright with mindfulness established before him. Having seen the venerable Rahula, he addressed him: "Cultivate the development of mindfulness on in and out breathing, Rahula. The development of mindfulness on in and out breathing, Rahula, is of great fruit and profit." Commentary: We read < Although the Blessed One saw that Rahula had returned he did not say to him:" Do not return, because it is the time for you to receive almsfood (bhikkaacaarakaalo)." Why? It is explained thus: It occurred to the Buddha :" Today Rahula will eat the food of Deathlessness (amatabhojana.m), namely, Mindfulness of the Body (kaayagataasati). It is said, Addasaa kho aayasmaa saariputto, when the Blessed One had gone, Sariputta who came afterwards saw him. > We read that Sariputta after the Buddha had gone on his almsround, left his dwellingplace, that he swept the place and threw away rubbish where necessary, and set out pots with drinking water. He went to the sick and asked, "Friend, what shall I bring you, what do you need?" He went to the young monks who were newly ordained and exhorted them, saying, "Rejoice, friend, be not discontented. The Teachings contain a practice that is most excellent in substance (abhiramatha aavuso maa ukka.n.thittha pa.tipattisaaraka.m Buddhasaasananti)." After he had acted thus, he went on almsround after all the (other) bhikkhus had gone. The text states: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mantra Hi Howard, I agree that samadhi could follow on objects other than mantra but I think Buddhaghosa's and or abhidhamma's insistance on concept as the object of jhana clearly points to mantra. But I think this is a matter more of concept rather than sound, at least for these two sources. Although I don't see how at least some tonal quality could not be present. I don't recall any particular emphasis on mantra in Patanjali aside from "Aum". Even this isn't just sound, and the sound itself is internalized. I think a sense of profundity is important. It has to invite surrender. But this is all just speculation on my part. I'm looking forward to field testing these theories. Larry 19679 From: robmoult Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:20pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Hi Christine, Missed ya! Sorry for not keeping in touch. I was very surprised to read in a recent post by Sarah that in his "Introduction to Conditional Relations", U Narada called the Abhidhamma "the word of the Buddha". I think that U Narada was taking some "artistic license". My understanding, from reading the Atthasalini, is that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma to the Gods in Tavatimsa Heaven for three months, in gratitude to his former mother. Each day, when it was time for His alms-round, He created a Buddha after His own image and willed that the created Buddha teach the Dhamma so much while the Buddha came to earth. After alms-round, the Buddha met Sariputta and told Sariputta that so much of the Dhamma had been taught during the interval. Effectively, the Buddha passed along a "Table of Contents" (The Matika?)and Sariputta (being so endowed with knowledge) filled in the rest for his 500 followers (who of course gained enlightenment). In summary, there are three versions of Abhidhamma: - Taught by the Buddha in Tavatimsa Heaven (long) - Taught by the Buddha to Sariputta (short) - Taught by Sariputta to 500 monks (medium, passed to us) If we take this account as fact, then the "Abhidhamma" (as we know it) was not the "word of the Buddha", but came from Sariputta. Nevertheless, the Tavatimsa heaven incident occured during the seventh vassa (rainy season retreat), so the Buddha would have been around for correct any mistakes made by Sariputta. The Abhidhamma must have been recited and retaught many times in the subsequent years while the Buddha was still alive. It doesn't really bother me that if Abhidhamma came to us via Sariputta. What is important to me is: - The Abhidhamma has a strong footing in the Suttas - The Abhidhamma does not contradict the Suttas - People find the approach taken in the Abhidhamma to be useful It definitely takes a certain type of mental disposition to appreciate the Abhidhamma and find it to be useful; a combination of buddhi-carita (intelligent nature) and vitakka-carita (ruminating or pondering nature). With our society's focus on education and science, I sense that the Abhidhamma is going to appeal to more and more people. In the Kalama Sutta, the Buddha warned us not to go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon bias towards a notion pondered over, nor upon another's seeming ability, nor upon the consideration 'The monk is our teacher'. The Buddha encouraged us to try for ourselves and see what it truth. The words are not as important as the message. If we get caught up in the words, we become scholars. Being a scholar doesn't help us get rebirth in a good plane, nor does it help us escape from Samsara. Nothing wrong with being a scholar (Sariputta was one), but it is not enough. If we focus on the message, (hopefully) we translate this focus into action; study -> practice -> realization (pariyatti -> patipatti -> pativedha). These are my personal views and I would be interested in hearing yours (or views of others on the DSG). Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > What are the implications if the Abhidhamma is > considered to be a product of the Buddha's disciples? 19680 From: Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 3:48pm Subject: Way 51, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four inds of Clear Comprehension, 1 Clear Comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 64 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html For making manifest this clear comprehension of resort the following set of four should be understood: In the Dispensation of the Buddha a certain bhikkhu on the journey out for alms takes along with him in the mind the subject of meditation, but on the journey back from the work of alms-gathering he does not bring it along with him, having become unmindful of it. Another does not take it along with him on the outward journey, but returns from the alms-tour with the subject of meditation in his mind. Still another neither takes it along with him on the outward journey nor returns with it on the journey home. And, lastly, there is the fourth kind of bhikkhu who both takes the subject of meditation along with him on the journey out for alms and brings it back with him on the journey home. Among these four kinds, there is a certain bhikkhu who lives thus: -- By day he cleanses his mind of things that becloud -- the hindrances [nivarana] -- through meditation on the ambulatory and in the sitting posture. By night, likewise, on the ambulatory and in the sitting posture, through meditation, in the first watch, and in the last watch, he cleanses his mind of things that becloud, after sleeping in the middle watch. Quite early in the day having done the duties connected with the terraces of the relic-shrine and the Bhodhi-tree -- sweeping and so forth -- he sprinkles the Bodhi-tree with water, places water for drinking and washing and attends to the Khandhaka duties beginning with the duties connected with the teacher and the preceptor. Thereafter, having looked to the needs of his body -- that is, after bestowing that attention on the body which consists of washing the face and so forth -- he enters his dwelling and practices the subject of meditation begun that day [tadahe mula bhutam kammatthanam], at several sittings [dve tayo pallanke usumam gahapento = during two or three sittings while the body happens to be put into a state of warming up]. [Tika] There two or three sittings = two or three sitting turns [dve tayo nisajjavare]. Warming up is said concerning the matter of causing warmth to be taken up twice or thrice [dve tini unhapanani sandhaya vuttam]. The word sitting [pallanka] means sitting by way of the thigh-bound or locked posture [urubaddha asana]. It is the posture called the lion-pose [sihasana] and the firm pose [thirasana]. It is the sitting down of one with the left foot crossed on to the right thigh and the right foot on to the left thigh, by way of interlocking, through the bending of the thighs (One sits in meditation not for a long time at a stretch. There are short intervals of relaxation through brief changes of posture when the body gets warm or uncomfortable in the cross-legged sitting pose.) When it is time to wander for alms, he having got up from the sitting meditation-pose, and takes his bowl and robe with just the thought of meditation uppermost in mind [kammatthana siseneva] leaves his dwelling, attending only to the thought of meditation [kammatthanam manasikarontova]. [T] "With just the thought of meditation uppermost in mind" = Just with the subject of meditation in the forefront of the mind [kammatthana mukheneva], keeping to the thought of meditation [kammatthanam avijahanto]. 19681 From: smallchap Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice HI Eddie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > I heard it is very effective. I remember there is a > program in notorious Tihar prison in India > administered by Goenka (his mentor is Sayagyi U Ba > Khin) that shows great results in changing hard core > criminals' attitude altogether. I think I still have > the paper article (Asiaweek) but no computer scanner. smallchap: Vapassana meditation is about seeing conditioned things as they truely are, i.e. anicca, dukkha, anatta. It is much more than transforming the social behavior of prisoners. We practise it with a aim to attain the deathless, no less. > Maybe you want to share some of your 18 years of > vipassana experience and we can learn from it. smallchap: I feel that you can learn more from this article, The Essentials of Buddha-Dhamma in Practice, written by the teacher of my teacher, Sayagyi U Ba Khin, than to hear about my vipassana experience. The link is here: http://www.ubakhin.com/ubakhin/ESSENTIA.html Regards, smallchap 19682 From: smallchap Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula Sotapanna, Vipassana practice Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > S: Nina, when you said second stage of vipassana ~naa.na, I believe you > > mean it to be udayabbaya-nana? > N: No. Paccaya- pariggaha-nana, knowing nama and rupa as conditioned > realities. This is the second stage of tender insight, taruna > vipassana~naa.na. S: Thanks for the clarification. > > The author continued: > > "The two knowledges, i.e. Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana and Paccya- > > pariggaha-nana, are very important. They are the basic knowledges in > > insight-meditations and they constitute the foundations for the > > arising of ten vipassana-nanas in later stages. They are not included > > in the vapassana-nanas because they do not concentrate on the three > > characteristic marks (Tilakkhana) of existence. Nevertheless they > > reveal the insight nature of the ultimate realities concerning nama > > and rupa." > N: Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, Paccaya-> pariggaha-nana, and sammassana > ~naa.na, these three are tender insight. Then the first stage of Principal > Insight, Maha-vipassana, is udayabbayaanupassanaa ~naa.na, seeing the > arising and falling away of realities. But in different texts the counting > of stages is somewhat different. Most important is: also tender insight is > insight, not thinking. True, in the course of insight the three > characteristics are penetrated more and more, but insight has to begin with > knowing what nama is, an experience, and what rupa is, a reality that does > not experience anything. > The stages are described not only in the Visuddhimagga, but also in the Path > of Discrimination. S: Thanks for pointing out the Path of Descrimination to me. I shall look it up. > S: "They are important because they eliminate [smallchap: I believe the > > author meant temprary eliminate] the wrong or evil views (miccha- > > ditthi) and strengthens the right view (samma-ditthi)" > > > > So it seems to me that if one takes to vipassana meditation > > diligently, straigth away one is a cula-sotapanna? > >N: No. S: In this case, is it correct to say that one cannot attains udayabbayaanupassanaa-~naa.na before one attains Nama-rupa-pariccheda- ~naa.na, Paccaya-pariggaha-~naa.na, and sammassana~naa.na? > S: You are right in saying that there is no use to want or wish for > > something. One will get no where by mere wishing and wanting. > N: That is the point, from beginning to end. It is most difficult to detect > the subtle clinging to self, to my result. A. Sujin asked us, when in > Bangkok: Do you like to have awareness? We can find the answer for > ourselves. Even after the third stage of tender insight there are vipassana > defilements. One gained more assurance, it causes happiness, but, here is a > pitfall. One gets stuck, even a Cula Sotapanna. No further development. > We may know in theory that nama such as seeing is different from rupa such > as visible object, but what about now? They are so much together. Still they > have different characteristics, only direct understanding can know their > difference. When there are conditions for direct awareness of one object at > a time, understanding can grow. > Here also a subtle clinging can be in the way. We may think without words > very quickly of different realities and takes this for insight. Pitfall > again. It is most helpful to know what one does not know yet. S: Thank you for the reminders of the pitfalls. I appreciate it very much. > I follow your words: life goes on as usual. Yes, until arahatship and after. > Realities do not change, but there can be more and more understanding. If we > behave unnaturally, how could we know realities as they naturally appear? > You were asked: can you help others? Yes, it is possible to help others to > understand what vipassana is, to drop illusions about understanding and the > lack of it. Anyway, the development of understanding is very slow and we > cannot expect a transformation of character. > By the way, I liked the straightforeward conversation you had. > People always ask, what to do? The conditions for sati and > pa~n~naa:Listening, contemplating in daily life, discussing, asking > questions, and developing each kind of kusala, but not for one's own sake. S: My belief is, we have to be able to help ourselves, before we can help others. > S: On the other hand, however, for one who is ready to enter the magga > > and the phala, perhaps a (strong) desire to escape from samsara is > > necessary? (The Elder Sangharakkhita, Visuddhi Magga Chapter I, 135) > N: I cannot think much about this, too far away. S: Sorry! I got carried away. I shouldn't have mentioned it at all. Thanks for the reminder again. In the course of insight > development panna turns away from conditioned realities and inclines to > nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma. It is the development of panna that leads > on. You use desire, it could be desire for deliverance without clinging. Regards, smallchap 19683 From: Diny@ Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice Dear SmallChap , Thanks for sharing ur thoughts ,yes I did two 10 days camp, and I practice too but not like Work. regards , - Dinesh --- "smallchap " wrote: > Hi Dinesh, > > I do find that practising vipassana regularly helps in my mundane > chore. I am more efficient and more focus in the work I do, compare > to previouly before I practise vapassana. As far as attitude is > concerned, yes, there is a change. The urge to escape from samsara is > much stronger than before. > > I teach vapassana meditation too, after my teacher told me to do so > some 9 yers ago. So I suppose I have helped others as well. > > If the experience I described above (nothing to cry about)can help > you in anyway in wantung to practise vipassana, that is well and > good. I believe you know the purpose of pratising vapassanan > meditation. > > regards, > smallchap > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" > wrote: > > Hi Smallchap. > > > > I asked experience of Vipassana to share so that it can help us ( > like me ) to > > get charge. If you are practising for 18 yrs great , definately > life goes on > > usually for all , but after Vipassana did it help you in doing Good > Job, > > thinking attitude or is it same as it was before 18 yrs ?? > > > > About Transform i mean that did you help others too ??? > > > > metta > > - Dinesh > > > > > > --- Sarah wrote: 19684 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Swee Boon, --- "nidive " wrote: > > I quote from Conditions Chapter 11 by Nina, > > -------------------------------------- > As regards conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta kamma-paccaya, the > cetanås accompanying all 89 types of citta are conascent kamma- > condition for the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany as > well as for the rúpas produced by them. > > ... > > It (cetana) conditions the result in the form of vipåkacitta and > specific rúpas of the body by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. > > When one, for example, slanders, there is akusala kamma through > speech and this can produce akusala vipåka later on. The akusala > cetanå or kamma conditions the vipåkacitta which arises later on by > way of asynchronous kamma-condition. At the same time, the akusala > cetanå is related to the citta and cetasikas it accompanies and to > speech intimation (vacíviññatti), a rúpa produced by citta, by way > of conascent kamma-condition. > > THUS, CETANA IS IN DIFFERENT WAYS A CONDITION FOR OTHER PHENOMENA. > -------------------------------------- Thankyou for copying these extracts above. ..... > In short, "Sarah", "Swee Boon" and "Nina" are no different from > cetana (kamma). Just this is existence. There is no self to be found. ..... I agree that “there is no self to be found”, but I don’t understand how you reach the rest of your conclusion that “Sarah.....are no different from cetana”. Cetana is one reality and one condition amongst many. What we take for “Sarah” and “Swee Boon” are a combination of many different realities. I have an idea there is some mis-communication here. Also when you say “just this is existence”, I have no idea what it means. I agree that cetana “exists” and performs its various functions with no self to assist. The same can be said about other paramattha dhammas too. Perhaps you’d clarify. ..... > PS: I just failed my driving practical test at 5 pm and I feel > miserable. Why do I feel anxiety? ..... Attachment;-) ..... Does an arahant have any anxiety? ..... NO - no kilesa of any kind. ..... > Can an arahant fail his driving practical test? ..... ;-) I think it’s unlikely an arahant (must be a bhikkhu) would be taking a driving test. What do you think? If it helps, there are two things I have to accept I’ll never be good at in this life - one is driving and the other is cooking.... no accumulations to focus on the road or the stove ;-( As Nina said, there are other tests in life of greater significance. Metta, Sarah p.s I appreciate all your discussions on the fine points of the suttas. ======================================================================= 19685 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] hello Hi Prema, --- kitcchri@a... wrote: > Hello, and greetings to everyone on this list, > My name is Prema Dasa. I live in Lawrence Kansas. I am new to > buddhism and would like to learn more about it. ..... Thanks for joining us and introducing yourself:-) I sincerely hope we can all help a little. ..... >I have read some books > about > buddhism, and have an idea how to practice mindfullness meditaion. Some > time > ago I read a short biography of a Thai monk named Phra Ajaan Lee and was > very > impressed with his life and teachings, and I would like to learn more. > Thank > you very much for allowing me to join your group. ..... Thank you! If you'd like to share any reflections on what you found so impressive, that would be interesting. Also, please don't hesitate to ask any questions or start any thread of your own. If you find some threads too technical or have too much Pali in them, pls just ignore them while you're getting started here. You may also find it useful to refer to this simple Pali glossary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Also, there are some posts under "New to Buddhism and new to the list" and also under "Abhidhamma - new" (or something similar) which may be useful in this section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If you need any other assistance or recommended books, just ask. With metta, Sarah ====== > your friend, Prema > > > > > > > > > 19686 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Howard, Sorry for the delay - back to Moggallana’s death: > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My, quite an accomplishment I'd say! Torn from limb to limb with > bones > pounded down until as small as grains of sand - and then this pile of > flesh > and sand manages to go pay respects! Not quite believable, is it? ;-) Of > > course, Maha Moggalana was a master of psychic abilities - so perhaps he > did > a quick reassembly job! > ---------------------------------------------- S: ;-)Remember that on the first attempt by the thugs to kill him, he escaped through the keyhole and on the second attempt he broke through the roof of the house and soared into the air. Also, it was on account of jealousy over his abilities (and the rewards that came as a result) that they were so determined to kill him in the first place. We read that he was used to going to the heavenly realms to ask the deities about the good deeds they had performed and repeat these to humans and then he would go to the hell planes and find out what had been done to bring about such suffering. I think we’re bound to underestimate the abilities of the Great Theras like Moggallana and Sariputta as well as the omniscient powers of the Buddha, because we just cannot begin to comprehend them. With regard to this last incident of paying respect to the Buddha, I’m just checking the details now and quote: “Then thinking to themselves, “He is dead,” they tossed his bones behind a certain clump of bushes and went their way. The Elder thought to himself, “I will pay my respects to the Teacher before I pass into Nibbana.” Accordingly he swathed himself with meditation as with a cloth, made himself rigid, and soaring through the air, he proceeded to the Teacher, paid obeisance to the Teacher, and said to him. “reverend Sir, I am about to pass into Nibbana.” We then read that after paying his respects, he rose into the air, performed various miracles, preached the Law and then passed into parinibbana. ..... >> ----------------------------------------------------- S: > > He then spoke these Dhammapada verses 137 - 140: > > "Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, > > Whosoever offends against those that are without offense, > > Such an one will right quickly come to one of ten states: > > > > He will incur cruel suffering, or infirmity or injury of the body, > > Or severe sickness, or loss of mind, > > > > Or misfortune proceeding from the king, or a heavy accusation, > > Or death of relatives, or loss of treasures, > > > > Or else the fire of lightning will consume his houses; > > upon dissolution of the body such a simpleton will go to Hell." > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ahh, but look at what the foregoing says! It says "Whosoever > visits > punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, Whosoever offends > against > those that are without offense, Such an one will right quickly come to > one of > ten states ..." ..... S: I understand your point;-) I understood it to mean ‘at the time’ or ‘in this life’. If we maliciously attack someone totally unprovoked, it will bring a heavy kammic result. In other words, I read it to mean ‘without offence at THE TIME of attack’, though we know from the rest of the passage, there is no result without offence having been performed sometime in the past. In other words, the stress here is on the seriousness of the deed. If there is an attack in self-defence, for example, it would not be as heinous as Maha Moggallana’s previous deed against his parents or that of the bandits against him in this lifetime. ..... (It refers, of course, to the Venerable having received > kammic retribution for his past misdeeds.) Note that this quoted > material > says that those who "deserve not punishment" (the venerable's parents in > the > earlier life in this case) can yet receive punishment, that "those that > are > without offense" can be offended against!! Bad actions can be initiated > against innocent people!! Not all that comes to one is (primarily) one's > own > kamma vipaka! (Yet I have every confidence that some will contort the > meaning > to reach the opposite conclusion. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------- S: I’m sure you’ll read my comments above as a contortion;-) The whole point of the story was to show that in spite of it being perceived that Moggallana did not deserve his cruel fate, that in fact as the Buddha pointed out, the result of his earlier deed for which he’d “suffered torment for numberless hundreds of thousands of years in Hell” and other great torments before this life was 'deserved'. In other words, it is pointing out the enormity of the akusala kamma patha performed against ‘innocents’ and the results such acts bring. I found Ken H’s analogy of the ferris wheel and having all been on the top and on the bottom very wise. Perhaps it may also be a condition for compassion for those performing evil deeds as well? ..... One other small point I reflected on when I was re-reading this account was that sometimes I try to take some small steps in daily life to help others avoid performing harmful speech or acts. For example, if a child arrives without his/her homework, I don’t ask the reason if I think it may be a condition for the child to tell a lie - that kind of small thing. Here, though, we have an example of Maha Moggallana with all his psychic powers unable to prevent the bandits performing this terrible act, even though he knows the awful consequences there will be for them. In the same way, the Buddha could not stop Devadatta performing some terrible akusala kammapatha. Perhaps it’s mana (pride) to even think we can do anymore than a very little to help those around us in this regard. Just a few reflections... Metta, Sarah ====== 19687 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Howard (and Swee Boon), SB:> > >Therefore, in the case of the victims of 911 in that article, the > > >carrying out of the attack on the Twin Towers by the terrorists > > >merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for the unarisen > > >vipaka (think of destructive kamma) of the victims to arise. > > ..... Sarah:> > Yes. > > ..... > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The connection then is adventitious, purely fortuitous! > Obviously, if > one waits long enough, for enough lifetimes, one will surely have "bad > things" happen to them, and "good things" as well. That is certainly not > the > mechanism for kammic niyama. I find this line of reasoning quite > unconvincing. > ======================== Sarah: As you say, if one waits enough lifetimes, “one will surely have "bad things" happen to them, and "good things" as well.” (James & Kom have written some nice posts to the Starkids on this). Doesn’t this also touch on the meaning of suffering? We cling to the “good things” which are so very fleeting and fear the “bad things”. We take this life as being the only life and forget that good and bad results will continue on indefinitely, being a condition for attachment and aversion and thereby more good and bad deeds on their account. It’s not a matter of any self waiting for anything, but by conditions, including kamma condition, various results will occur anyway, regardless of any wishing or intention to the contrary. Of course, the various combination of other conditions act as decisive support for kamma to bring its results at any particular time and we know the nitty-gritty details are ‘imponderables’. Still, we can test out now that there are 'good' and 'bad' sights, sounds, tastes, smells and bodily impressions being experienced. Isn’t this what is meant by anatta and no-control and the reason, perhaps, it’s so difficult to accept with equanimity what is conditioned at this very moment? Do you think it is unconvincing because a) it’s illogical, b) wisdom hasn’t been developed enough to prove or disprove it or c)at heart we don’t really want to accept it. Metta, Sarah ====== 19688 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kusala and akusala (was, Intention, willing and no-control) Hi Larry & Howard, Just clearing out my inbox.....I don't think this point was clarified. Larry: > I didn't understand this definition. Are an arahant's consciousness and > deeds kusala but kammicly neutral? If so, what is the meaning of kusala > in this case? =========================== Howard:>>You've made a good point. I would suppose that either Nyanatiloka's definition applies only to worldlings or one would have to say that an arahant's mindstates are neither kusala nor akusala.<< ============================= Sarah: I don’t know what definition of Nyantiloka’s you were discussing (I don’t have it here), but to clarify as I understand this point: * An arahant’s consciousness and deeds are not kusala but kiriya (inoperative). We can’t use kusala for arahants. * Any cetasikas, e.g cetana, accompanying these kiriya cittas are also kiriya (inoperative). So the cetana in this case only ever has the function of coordinating, never that of acting to bring results. * This also touches on the reason why wholesome cetasikas (mental factors) are called sobhana (beautiful) and not kusala; they do not only arise with kusala cittas, but also with some vipaka and some kiriya cittas. *The sobhana kiriya cittas (of an arahant) are accompanied by at least 19 out of the 25 sobhana cetasikas. * Just as for worldlings, ahetuka (non-root) vipaka cittas (results of kamma such as sense-door experiencing consciousness)are not accompanied by sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas, but as usual, just be the 7 universal cetasikas which accompany all cittas (i.e. phassa, vedana, sanna, cetana, ekaggata, ivitindriya and manasikara. Pls let me know if this doesn’t make sense or doesn’t seem to square with the definition you were discussing (if you can remember it;-)) Metta, Sarah ===== 19689 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:17am Subject: Re: hello Hi Prema, Welcome! You might want to read "Buddhism in Daily Life" by Nina van Gorkom to get an introduction to the concepts discussed on this site. It is available for download at http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Once you have read that book, you might want to try "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" by the same author (also available for download at the same site). Please feel free to ask questions. Metta, Rob M :-) 19690 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] AN IV, 170 - Fourth type Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: ... SB: Question (2): How is this second type of arahant (tranquility preceded by insight) different from the fourth type, that is: "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Jon: In the fourth case, there is no mention of the person attaining samatha, whether before or after his attainment of enlightenment. SB: I have also told you that this fourth type of arahant is elaborated in Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) ... but you said that it is not. I still insist that it's an elaboration of the fourth type. ... Please compare the two descriptions carefully. It appears that even the fourth type is considered as having practised mundane jhanas. Jon: I don’t quite see the basis for this last remark. The passage describing the fourth case mentions concentration but not tranquility. Why do you say it refers to mundane jhanas? I agree that the passage from AN III, 100 (which I have repasted below) refers to jhanas. According to my Bhikkhu Bodhi translation, it describes the person who is capable of attaining the 6 abhinnas. Happy to discuss further. Jon (AN III, 100 ) "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. "If he wants, he knows the awareness of other beings... "If he wants, he recollects his manifold past lives... "If he wants, he sees -- by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human -- beings passing away and re-appearing... "If he wants, then through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release and discernment- release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening." Weight Age Gender Female Male 19691 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Sarah, > I agree that "there is no self to be found", but I don't understand how > you reach the rest of your conclusion that "Sarah.....are no different > from cetana". Cetana is one reality and one condition amongst many. What > we take for "Sarah" and "Swee Boon" are a combination of many different > realities. I have an idea there is some mis-communication here. Also when > you say "just this is existence", I have no idea what it means. I agree > that cetana "exists" and performs its various functions with no self to > assist. The same can be said about other paramattha dhammas too. Perhaps > you'd clarify. Kamma is hard to understand. When I say "Just this is existence. There is no self to be found.", I am NOT saying it from an intellectual point of understanding. And I don't intend to clarify, because I am unable to clarify it any further by way of words. But I just want to reproduce a sutta quote which James had brought up before. 7. "'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; kamma is my refuge. Whatever kamma I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 Please reflect, when the Buddha says "Of kamma I am constituted.", is there an entity called "I"? If there isn't an entity called "I", then what is that ? How is that different from kamma? Kamma is indeed one reality and one condition amongst many. Nevertheless, it is the chief reality and chief condition that ties us to samsara; it itself is samsara. The Buddha singled it out as one of the ten essentials to be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. May you reflect well upon kamma again and again. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19692 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Sarah & Howard, > The connection then is adventitious, purely fortuitous! Obviously, if > one waits long enough, for enough lifetimes, one will surely have "bad > things" happen to them, and "good things" as well. That's how it is. If the past is infinite, the variety of results of kamma accumulated must also be infinite. I think this is why the Buddha said that the beginning of samsara and the results of kamma are imponderables. > That is certainly not the mechanism for kammic niyama. > I find this line of reasoning quite unconvincing. Not surprising anyway. We all like kamma to conform to our wishes and ideals, without realizing that we ourselves are nothing more than kamma. This amounts to nothing more than "praying" to ourselves through intellectual reasonings. It's still stuck in self-view, doubts and rites & rituals. This is how I see the matter. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19693 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Hi Jon, Sarah Et Al., I do understand the difference between kamma (cetanaa) and kamma-patha in a general way--though I'm not crystal clear on where to draw the line (I suspect it may be naturally a little blurred). My interest in lobha in this context is because of its basic position as one of the three unwholesome roots. In the context of lobha-dosa-moha, lobha has always seemed to me to include all forms of lobha including all those mentioned in Htoo Naing's recent reminder as well as kaama and maybe others. Otherwise, why not 'kaama-dosa-moha' or raaga-dosa-moha'? Though I do recall instances in the discourses of failure of attainment (of nirodha) resulting from akusala vipaaka (resulting in turn from akusala kamma-patha), it seems to me that everyday attachments and aversions (and identification with them), and their perpetual, moment-to-moment reinforcement (by volitional action) are far more central to the most central problem of all--conditioned origination. (I'm not sure that this view is supportable from the texts). To put it another way, it seems to me that the main issue isn't kusala vs. akusala, but rebirth vs. cessation. Kusala kamma-patha leads to pleasant rebirth/sense impingement; pa~n~naa leads to nibbaana. mike p.s. When I wrote "everyday attachments and aversions (and identification with them), and their perpetual, moment-to-moment reinforcement (by volitional action)" I had in mind something similar (I think) to NEO Swee Boon's recent comments regarding 'ourselves' as kamma. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) > Mike > > Great to have you back again :-)), :-)). I hope you don't mind me > jumping in here. > > Kamma is a vast and complex subject, which I do not pretend to even > partly grasp (I mean of course at an intellectual level). > > However, I believe we need to distinguish between the moments of > kusala/akusala volition that constitute 'completed action' or > 'courses of action' (kamma patha) and those moments of kusala/akusala > volition that are not of that strength or nature but simply > accumulate as a tendency. > > While it's true that the latter may play a part in our committing > more of the former at some time in the future, even this is not > necessarily so with all instances of akusala volition. For example, > the attachment that motivates our normal living activities (eating, > brushing teeth, going to work etc) is not regarded as leading us in > the direction of committing more akusala kamma patha. If I remember > correctly, this class of attachment is referred to somewhere in the > teachings as attachment that is 'to be followed' (perhaps someone > will remember the source, it has been quoted on-list before). Put > another way, this akusala volition simply does not involve the degree > of danger that other akusala volition does. > > In addition to that, even among the akusala volition that constitutes > akusala kamma patha, some plays only a supporting role, and so is > dependent for its efficacy on other (more weighty) kamma coming to > fruition. > > I have pasted below some extracts from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist > Dictionary that might be of interest. > > Jon > > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary > A. Kamma-patha > <<< > kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds > of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > - 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > - 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > - 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. > II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): > - 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual > intercourse; > - 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, > foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; > - 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. > > Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of > defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the > hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms > of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute > 'courses of action'. > >>> > > B. Kamma > <<< > kamma: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the wholesome and > unwholesome volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetaná) and their > concomitant mental factors, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny > of beings. > These karmical volitions (kamma cetaná) become manifest as wholesome > or unwholesome actions by body (káya-kamma), speech (vací-kamma) and > mind (mano-kamma). > .. .. .. > With regard to their functions one distinguishes: > 1. regenerative (or productive) karma (janaka-kamma), > 2. supportive (or consolidating) karma (upatthambhaka-kamma), > 3. counteractive (suppressive or frustrating) karma > (upapílaka-kamma), > 4. destructive (or supplanting) karma (upaghátaka- or > upacchedaka-kamma). > (1) produces the 5 groups of existence (corporeality, feeling, > perception, mental formations, consciousness) at rebirth as well as > during life-continuity. > (2) does not produce karma-results but is only able to maintain the > already produced karma-results. > (3) counteracts or suppresses the karma-results. > (4) destroys the influence of a weaker karma and effects only its own > result. > >>> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:26 AM > > > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for you comments, > > "If we like our food or laugh, there is no akusala kamma. We just > discussed this again with A. Sujin. If we would think that laughing > brings an unpleasant result, how unnatural our life would be. It > could cause lots of scruples to people." > > If thought, speech or action with regard to a pleasant impingement > (of thought of flavor e.g.) is conditioned by attachment to the > pleasant feeling--that is, tending to continue or repeat the > impingement--this is perfectly natural but still akusala, I think, > however subtle. (I mean that that volition does accumulate as > akusala kamma and as a condition for > future akusala kamma). > > In fact I think most akusala is 'perfectly natural' and learning to > see the danger in it (especially in lobha) is rather un-natural. > Naturally, people like to think that their everday pleasures and > attachments are harmless, but this is not borne out by my (obviously > very limited) understanding of Buddhadhamma. > > Am I missing or miscontruing something? Thanks in advance... > > mike 19694 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Howard (& Sarah) > Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, > Whosoever offends against those that are without offense > Bad actions can be initiated against innocent people!! > Not all that comes to one is (primarily) one's own kamma vipaka! > (Yet I have every confidence that some will contort the meaning > to reach the opposite conclusion. ;-) Howard, I think that you are the one who contorted the meaning to reach your own conclusion. In The Life of Sariputta, we read that a monk accused Venerable Sariputta of wrong-doing. ------------------------------------------------------ Once, when the Buddha was residing at Jetavana, the Venerable Sariputta was the victim of a false accusation. It so happened that at the end of the rains the Elder took leave of the Master and departed with his own retinue of monks on a journey. A large number of monks also took leave of Sariputta, and in dismissing them he addressed those who were known by their personal and family names, by those names. Among them there was a monk who was not known by his personal and family name, but a strong desire arose in him that the Chief Disciple should address him by those names in taking his departure. In the great throng of monks, however, the Venerable Sariputta did not give him this distinction, and the monk was aggrieved. "He does not greet me as he does the other monks," he thought, and conceived a grudge against Sariputta. At the same time it chanced that the hem of the Elder's robe brushed against him, and this added to his grievance. He approached the Buddha and complained; "Lord, the Venerable Sariputta, doubtless thinking to himself, 'I am the Chief Disciple', struck me a blow that almost damaged my ear. And having done that without so much as begging my pardon, he set out on his journey." The Buddha summoned Sariputta into his presence. Meanwhile, the Venerable Maha Moggallana and the Venerable Ananda, knowing that a calumny was about to be exposed, summoned all the monks, convoking an assembly. "Approach, venerable sirs!" they called. "When the Venerable Sariputta is face to face with the Master, he will roar the roar of a lion!"[40] And so it came about. When the Master questioned the great Elder, instead of denying the charge he said: "O Lord, one who is not firmly established in the contemplation of the body with regard to his body, such a one may be able to hurt a fellow monk and leave without apologizing." Then followed the Venerable Sariputta's lion's roar. He compared his freedom from anger and hatred with the patience of the earth which receives all things, clean and unclean; his tranquillity of mind to a bull with severed horns, to a lowly Candala youth, to water, fire and wind, and to the removal of impurity; he compared the oppression he felt from his own body to the oppression of snakes and corpses, and the maintenance of his body to that of fatty excrescences. In nine similes he described his own virtues, and nine times the great earth responded to the words of truth. The entire assembly was moved by the majestic force of his utterance. As the Elder proclaimed his virtues, remorse filled the monk who had unjustly traduced him. Immediately, he fell at the feet of the Blessed One, admitting his slander and confessing his fault. Thereupon the Buddha said: "Sariputta, pardon this deluded man, lest his head should split into seven pieces." Sariputta's reply was: "Venerable sir, I freely pardon this venerable monk." And, with joined palms, he added, "May this venerable monk also pardon me if I have in any way offended him." http://www.abhidhamma.org/life_of_sariputta.htm ------------------------------------------------------ Venerable Sariputta is clearly without offense with regard to the false accusation. But can we say rightly that the hearing of the false accusation at the ear door is not the result of (akusala) kamma? If someone is in silent anger and you happen to ask him something (without knowing that he is angry), and he replies with harsh speech, are you with or without offense? Is not the hearing of that harsh speech at the ear door the result of (akusala) kamma (even though you are without offense)? In the same way, Venerable Maha-Moggallana was without offense. We read: ------------------------------------------------------ These were the circumstances of Moggallana's death. After the death of Nathaputta, the leader of the ascetic Order of the Jains (Jinas),[10] there arose among his followers bitter contentions about his teaching, and consequently there was a loss of devoted adherents and of support. The Jains had also learned what Moggallana reported from his celestial travels: that virtuous devotees of the Buddha were seen to have a heavenly rebirth while followers of other sects lacking moral conduct, had fallen into miserable, sub-human states of existence. This, too, contributed to the decline in the reputation of other sects, including the Jains. Particularly the very lowest type of Jains in Magadha were so enraged about that loss of public esteem and support that they wanted to get rid of Moggallana. Without investigating the causes in themselves, they projected blame externally and concentrated their envy and hate on Maha-Moggallana. Hesitating to commit a murder themselves, they conceived another plan. Even in those days there were professional criminals ready to do a killing for payment. There are always unscrupulous men willing to do anything for money. So some evil-minded Jains hired such a gang and ordered them to kill Moggallana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel263.html ------------------------------------------------------ But his death is certainly the result of (akusala) kamma. Please read carefully what the Buddha said about the death of Venerable Maha-Moggallana. ------------------------------------------------------ > "Monks, if you REGARD ONLY THIS PRESENT STATE OF EXISTENCE, > Moggallana the Great did indeed meet death which he DID NOT DESERVE. > But as a MATTER OF FACT, the MANNER OF DEATH he met was in EXACT CONFORMITY > with the DEED he COMMITTED in a PREVIOUS state of EXISTENCE.' " http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19610 ------------------------------------------------------ The Buddha's answer directly contradicts your statements: > Bad actions can be initiated against innocent people!! > Not all that comes to one is (primarily) one's own kamma vipaka! Venerable Maha-Moggallana was clearly innocent and without offense with regards to his direct and indirect killers. Yet the Buddha also said that his death was the result of (akusala) kamma. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Dear Jon, What a wonderful reminder. It is the best respect.. Even in the kitchen we can pay respect in this way. Nina op 16-02-2003 14:25 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Moments of satipatthana/insight are the highest respect that can be > paid to the Buddha/the Triple Gem by one not yet enlightened. > > Likewise, moments at which are being developed the necessary > conditions for satipatthana/insight to arise are also moments of > paying respect to the Triple Gem 19696 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Dear Sarah, Very good to give these references. From the Vinaya is very interesting, I had not thought of those.And from the Mahaniddesa, I have those in Thai. Nina. op 16-02-2003 13:02 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > "The Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time. This can be > proved from the following passages in the Book of Discipline, vol 111: > > a)"p.415 "Not given leave means: without asking (for permission). Should > ask a question means: if, having asked for leave in regard to Suttanta, > she asks about discipline or about Abhidhamma, there is an offence of > expiation. If, having asked for leave in regard to Abhidhamm, shes asks > about Suttanta or about Discipline, there is an offence of expiation." > > b) "p.42 "There is no offence if, not desiring to disparage, he speaks, > saying: "Look here, do you master suttantas or verses or what is extra to > dhamma (i.e. Abhidhamma)and afterwards you will master discipline’; if he > is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer." > 19697 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Dear Kom, I appreciate your answer very much, this is the core of the matter. Especially this one: Wisdom is a truly > wonderful quality: it allows us to see things as they are, > as the Buddha has taught them.> This will become ever more clear. Nina op 16-02-2003 06:31 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > he > who sees the dhamma sees the Buddha. We might not be able > to see the "dhamma" right now, but we can learn a bit at a > time about other things that we can see. By learning what > appears now as they truly are, we learn more about what the > Buddha truly taught, and not just stories that we hear from > other people..... > But if we truly know and understand the evidence that is > appearing right in front of us, then we are less likely to > be shaken: the evidence is indisputable. Wisdom is a truly > wonderful quality: it allows us to see things as they are, > as the Buddha has taught them. 19698 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Manual of Abh., new book. : Atthayojanaa? Dear Suan, This is very interesting, thank you. Nina op 16-02-2003 15:16 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > Atthayojana(a) is a kind of textual dictionary. 19699 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/17/03 2:51:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Sorry for the delay - back to Moggallana’s death: > > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > My, quite an accomplishment I'd say! Torn from limb to limb with > >bones > >pounded down until as small as grains of sand - and then this pile of > >flesh > >and sand manages to go pay respects! Not quite believable, is it? ;-) Of > > > >course, Maha Moggalana was a master of psychic abilities - so perhaps he > >did > >a quick reassembly job! > >---------------------------------------------- > S: ;-)Remember that on the first attempt by the thugs to kill him, he > escaped through the keyhole and on the second attempt he broke through the > roof of the house and soared into the air. Also, it was on account of > jealousy over his abilities (and the rewards that came as a result) that > they were so determined to kill him in the first place. We read that he > was used to going to the heavenly realms to ask the deities about the good > deeds they had performed and repeat these to humans and then he would go > to the hell planes and find out what had been done to bring about such > suffering. I think we’re bound to underestimate the abilities of the Great > Theras like Moggallana and Sariputta as well as the omniscient powers of > the Buddha, because we just cannot begin to comprehend them. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Oh, I think it is all comprehensible. It's just that we don't know for sure how much of this is fact and how much is exaggerative legend. I do *not* disbelieve in unusual powers. Actually, I think they are easier to accept from my phenomenalist perspective than from a materialist or dualist one. It's just that we don't know how much of the reportage is fact, and how much is fiction. ----------------------------------------------------- > > With regard to this last incident of paying respect to the Buddha, I’m > just checking the details now and quote: > > “Then thinking to themselves, “He is dead,â€? they tossed his bones behind a > certain clump of bushes and went their way. The Elder thought to himself, > “I will pay my respects to the Teacher before I pass into Nibbana.â€? > Accordingly he swathed himself with meditation as with a cloth, made > himself rigid, and soaring through the air, he proceeded to the Teacher, > paid obeisance to the Teacher, and said to him. “reverend Sir, I am about > to pass into Nibbana.â€? > > We then read that after paying his respects, he rose into the air, > performed various miracles, preached the Law and then passed into > parinibbana. > ..... > > >>----------------------------------------------------- > S: > >>He then spoke these Dhammapada verses 137 - 140: > >>"Whosoever visits punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, > >>Whosoever offends against those that are without offense, > >>Such an one will right quickly come to one of ten states: > >> > >>He will incur cruel suffering, or infirmity or injury of the body, > >>Or severe sickness, or loss of mind, > >> > >>Or misfortune proceeding from the king, or a heavy accusation, > >>Or death of relatives, or loss of treasures, > >> > >>Or else the fire of lightning will consume his houses; > >>upon dissolution of the body such a simpleton will go to Hell." > >> > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Ahh, but look at what the foregoing says! It says "Whosoever > >visits > >punishment upon those that deserve not punishment, Whosoever offends > >against > >those that are without offense, Such an one will right quickly come to > >one of > >ten states ..." > ..... > S: I understand your point;-) I understood it to mean ‘at the time’ or ‘in > this life’. If we maliciously attack someone totally unprovoked, it will > bring a heavy kammic result. In other words, I read it to mean ‘without > offence at THE TIME of attack’, though we know from the rest of the > passage, there is no result without offence having been performed sometime > in the past. In other words, the stress here is on the seriousness of the > deed. If there is an attack in self-defence, for example, it would not be > as heinous as Maha Moggallana’s previous deed against his parents or that > of the bandits against him in this lifetime. > ..... > > (It refers, of course, to the Venerable having received > >kammic retribution for his past misdeeds.) Note that this quoted > >material > >says that those who "deserve not punishment" (the venerable's parents in > >the > >earlier life in this case) can yet receive punishment, that "those that > >are > >without offense" can be offended against!! Bad actions can be initiated > >against innocent people!! Not all that comes to one is (primarily) one's > >own > >kamma vipaka! (Yet I have every confidence that some will contort the > >meaning > >to reach the opposite conclusion. ;-) > >---------------------------------------------------------- > S: I’m sure you’ll read my comments above as a contortion;-) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: You betcha!! ;-) But I must commend you on your talent in that direction!! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------- > > The whole point of the story was to show that in spite of it being > perceived that Moggallana did not deserve his cruel fate, that in fact as > the Buddha pointed out, the result of his earlier deed for which he’d > “suffered torment for numberless hundreds of thousands of years in Hellâ€? > and other great torments before this life was 'deserved'. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I get that and have no bone to pick with it. -------------------------------------------------- > > In other words, it is pointing out the enormity of the akusala kamma patha > performed against ‘innocents’ and the results such acts bring. I found Ken > H’s analogy of the ferris wheel and having all been on the top and on the > bottom very wise. Perhaps it may also be a condition for compassion for > those performing evil deeds as well? > ..... > One other small point I reflected on when I was re-reading this account > was that sometimes I try to take some small steps in daily life to help > others avoid performing harmful speech or acts. For example, if a child > arrives without his/her homework, I don’t ask the reason if I think it may > be a condition for the child to tell a lie - that kind of small thing. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's very compassionate. --------------------------------------------------- > Here, though, we have an example of Maha Moggallana with all his psychic > powers unable to prevent the bandits performing this terrible act, even > though he knows the awful consequences there will be for them. In the same > way, the Buddha could not stop Devadatta performing some terrible akusala > kammapatha. Perhaps it’s mana (pride) to even think we can do anymore than > a very little to help those around us in this regard. Just a few > reflections... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19700 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Co. Dear Swee Boon, The ending of the Co to A4, 170, in tandem is in short, I found it not so clear. Look now what follows. The Co to A 3, 100, is similar but it gives more. This Co is in Thai. Sutta begins with the simile of washing of gold. Adhicitta: citta intent on samatha and vipassana. First comparing translations, I have PTS. But B.Th has: "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. B Th: His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet > attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication > of forceful restraint.> Thoughts of dhamma: PTS has reflections about mindstates. And note to dhammas: the upakilesas of vipassana. Then B Th: uses: fabrications. Text has: sasankhaara niggayha vaarita vato.(sasankhara: prompted. Niggayha: blame, censure.varita: avoided. vato: observance. difficult to translate this) PTS: it is a state dependent on painful habitual restraint.(B Th stresses: forceful restraint) Co states that he cannot have one object. As far as I understand this difficult text, he can overcome the perfections of insight. When his defilements are abandoned those reflections do not arise anymore. (N: thus, this does not mean that we should have forceful restraint. It is panna that performs its function.) Then the text: Hoti so bhikkhave samayo, same words as at the end of Co to in tandem: Bhikkhus, there is this occasion, mentioning the conditions as climate, etc. which are natural strong dependence condition for enlightenment, pakatupanissaya paccaya. The text continues, stating that he has eradicated all defilements. The Abhinnas are of the arahat. At the end: this sutta spoke of the phalasamapatti: fruition attainment. Remarks: Thus he has cultivated vipassana and became an arahat. He also developed jhana, he could reach fruition attainment. to conclude for now, I quote from Dhamma Issues 2: op nidive@y...: > This is said in Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x): > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html > > "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent > on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the > monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes > out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the > moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & > harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of > existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine > impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, > thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, > destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. > > "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. > His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet > attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication > of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows > steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His > concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and > is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. > > "And then whichever of the higher knowledges (abhinna powers and > ending of mental effluents) he turns his mind to know & realize, he > can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. > > > This fourth type of practitioner is very special. The practitioner > does not practice jhanic access or jhanic absorption concentration. > Yet the practitioner can still attain abhinna powers and the ending > of the mental effluents. 19701 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah - Swee Boon had said that the kamma of the 911 victims was not a cause for the Al Qaida attack. I believe that is true. But that means that there is no connection between alleged past misdeeds of the near-3000 victims and their terrible deaths at the hands of ignorant murderers. To characterize their deaths as their vipaka is, to my mind, ludicrous. What we saw there was the initiation of new kamma by the attackers and those others complicitous in the attack. The victim's kammic traces didn't "know" that being at work that day was an "opportunity" for their fruition! With no relation of causality holding between the past kamma of the victims and the attack made by the hijackers, the circumstances, from the perspective of the victims, are reasonably characterized as adventitious (as regards their kamma). Their own kamma was not essentially involved in the event. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/17/03 3:17:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (and Swee Boon), > > SB:> >>Therefore, in the case of the victims of 911 in that article, the > >>>carrying out of the attack on the Twin Towers by the terrorists > >>>merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for the unarisen > >>>vipaka (think of destructive kamma) of the victims to arise. > >>..... > Sarah:> >Yes. > >>..... > >> > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > The connection then is adventitious, purely fortuitous! > >Obviously, if > >one waits long enough, for enough lifetimes, one will surely have "bad > >things" happen to them, and "good things" as well. That is certainly not > >the > >mechanism for kammic niyama. I find this line of reasoning quite > >unconvincing. > >======================== > Sarah: As you say, if one waits enough lifetimes, “one will surely have > "bad things" happen to them, and "good things" as well.â€? (James &Kom have > written some nice posts to the Starkids on this). Doesn’t this also touch > on the meaning of suffering? We cling to the “good thingsâ€? which are so > very fleeting and fear the “bad thingsâ€?. We take this life as being the > only life and forget that good and bad results will continue on > indefinitely, being a condition for attachment and aversion and thereby > more good and bad deeds on their account. It’s not a matter of any self > waiting for anything, but by conditions, including kamma condition, > various results will occur anyway, regardless of any wishing or intention > to the contrary. Of course, the various combination of other conditions > act as decisive support for kamma to bring its results at any particular > time and we know the nitty-gritty details are ‘imponderables’. Still, we > can test out now that there are 'good' and 'bad' sights, sounds, tastes, > smells and bodily impressions being experienced. > > Isn’t this what is meant by anatta and no-control and the reason, perhaps, > it’s so difficult to accept with equanimity what is conditioned at this > very moment? > > Do you think it is unconvincing because a) it’s illogical, b) wisdom > hasn’t been developed enough to prove or disprove it or c)at heart we > don’t really want to accept it. > > Metta, > > Sarah > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19702 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:22am Subject: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, all - For the constituents of a conventional event (such as the 9-11 massacre) to be kamma vipaka, the kamma must have been a condition for their arising. It is not enough that the kamma preceded the event. When A attacks B, and B subsequently counter-attacks, the subsequent attack on A had the attack on B as condition. When a person is enraged, and hurts himself due to his rage-induced lack of control, that hurt is kamma vipaka. The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma and corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a subsequent event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or aspects of it, vipaka of that kamma. I hope this clarifies what I've been writing about. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19703 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:33am Subject: Contradictory Statements Hi, all - I think we would best not be too sure about any of our "understandings" of the Dhamma. I had found the following def'n in Ven. Nyanatiloka's dictionary. > vipáka: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental > phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, > etc. ), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action > (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some > previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, > everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any > karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former > action, being in reality itself karma. On this subject s. tittháyatana, > karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. > 80).Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samutthána) corporeal things are never > called kamma-vipáka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I was initially interested in this because of what I capitalize in the noun phrase "any karmically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), WHICH IS THE RESULT of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life." It underscores my insistance that vipaka must be the *result*, at least in part, of the kamma. But then I noted the final sentence, which states "Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samutthána) corporeal things are never called kamma-vipáka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena." Now, this is interesting in its subtlety. However, it made me think of something stated by the Buddha which seems to be in outright contradiction to this, namely the following, taken from ATI: *********************************************** "What is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, > capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The > intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being > felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one > does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect. This is called > new kamma." [SN XXXV.145] ********************************************** I do see one possible way out of this apparent contradiction: In this latter sutta material, eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and intellect are not intended as corporeal things, but as modes of experience, so that "eye" means not a physical eye, but the visual mode of experience. Any thoughts on this folks? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19704 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:31pm Subject: Re: Contradictory Statements --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > . On this subject s. tittháyatana, > > karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. > > 80).Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samutthána) corporeal things are never > > called kamma-vipáka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > . However, it made me think of something stated by > the Buddha which seems to be in outright contradiction to this, namely the > following, taken from ATI: > > *********************************************** > "What is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, > > capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The > > intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being > > felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one > > does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect. This is called > > new kamma." > [SN XXXV.145] > ********************************************** > Dear Howard, Vipaka is a term that applies to the mental result of kamma. But kamma also produces some rupa - as has been said many times on this forum - such as eye base(cakkhu pasada ) etc. These phenomena although conditioned by kamma are not called vipaka. Robert 19705 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:35pm Subject: Re: Contradictory Statements Hi Howard, I think note 111 (p. 757) to the sutta "Not Yours" in Samyutta Nikaya Nidanasamyutta 12 37(7( p.575 ) B. Bodhi has a bearing on this topic: "Spk. says "It is old kamma (puraanam idam kammam): This body is not actually old kamma, but because it is produced by old kamma it is spoken of in terms of its condition. It should be seen 'as generated' (abhisankhata), in that it is based on volition, rooted in volition; and 'as something to be felt' (vedaniya), in that it is a basis for what is to be felt. [Spk-pt: because it is a basis and object of feeling]. In 35:146 the same idea is extended to the six internal sense bases. To reflect upon the body in terms of dependent origination, one considers that this body can be subsumed under "form" in the compound "name-and-form". One then reflects that name-and-form comes into being with consciousness, i.e. the rebirth-consciousness, as a conascent condition, and that both consciousness and name-and-form originate from the volitional formations, i.e. the kammic activities of the preceding existence. Thus the theme of this sutta ties up with the three that immediately follow." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: 19706 From: connie Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Howard ~ I'm not sure what you mean by a causal connection between kamma and corresponding vipaka. Are you saying there should be some recognizable linear relationship? I think it's more like chaos theory. The link could come from anywhere in all that's accumulated. From 'out of the blue' a memory is triggered and I smell the sauerkraut my grandfather made in the kitchen or hear his laughter. Time is non-linear and all contained in each present moment. My history is just my understanding and ordering of events. Just another story to get me through in what we call the real world. peace, connie Howard wrote: Hi, all - For the constituents of a conventional event (such as the 9-11 massacre) to be kamma vipaka, the kamma must have been a condition for their arising. It is not enough that the kamma preceded the event. When A attacks B, and B subsequently counter-attacks, the subsequent attack on A had the attack on B as condition. When a person is enraged, and hurts himself due to his rage-induced lack of control, that hurt is kamma vipaka. The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma and corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a subsequent event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or aspects of it, vipaka of that kamma. I hope this clarifies what I've been writing about. With metta, Howard 19707 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/17/03 4:33:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Vipaka is a term that applies to the mental result of kamma. But > kamma also produces some rupa - as has been said many times on this > forum - such as eye base(cakkhu pasada ) etc. These phenomena > although conditioned by kamma are not called vipaka. > Robert > ========================== So, Robert, you are saying that various sorts of dhamma arise with kamma as condition, but only mental results are called vipaka? But isn't the realm of one's birth a basic case of kamma vipaka? The realm of birth doesn't strike me as a mental phenomenon. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19708 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Christine - In a message dated 2/17/03 4:55:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I think note 111 (p. 757) to the sutta "Not Yours" in Samyutta > Nikaya Nidanasamyutta 12 37(7( p.575 ) B. Bodhi has a bearing on this > topic: > > "Spk. says "It is old kamma (puraanam idam kammam): This body is not > actually old kamma, but because it is produced by old kamma it is > spoken of in terms of its condition. It should be seen 'as > generated' (abhisankhata), in that it is based on volition, rooted in > volition; and 'as something to be felt' (vedaniya), in that it is a > basis for what is to be felt. [Spk-pt: because it is a basis and > object of feeling]. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Chris. Yes, of course. I understand that the eye, for example, is not old kamma. The question was whether it is the vipaka of old kamma. Nyanatiloka (and Robert) state that only mental phenomena are vipaka. But the statements of the Buddha I quoted seem to imply otherwise. The resolution of the apparent contradiction requires, it seems to me, either a special definition of 'eye', 'ear', etc, or requires a special definition of 'vipaka'. I took the former approach, and Robert took the latter in saying " Vipaka is a term that applies to the mental result of kamma. But kamma also produces some rupa - as has been said many times on this forum - such as eye base(cakkhu pasada ) etc. These phenomena although conditioned by kamma are not called vipaka." -------------------------------------------------- > > In 35:146 the same idea is extended to the six internal sense bases. > To reflect upon the body in terms of dependent origination, one > considers that this body can be subsumed under "form" in the > compound "name-and-form". One then reflects that name-and-form comes > into being with consciousness, i.e. the rebirth-consciousness, as a > conascent condition, and that both consciousness and name-and-form > originate from the volitional formations, i.e. the kammic activities > of the preceding existence. Thus the theme of this sutta ties up > with the three that immediately follow." > > metta, > Christine > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19709 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Connie - In a message dated 2/17/03 5:07:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@h... writes: > Hi, Howard ~ > > I'm not sure what you mean by a causal connection between kamma and > corresponding vipaka. Are you saying there should be some recognizable > linear relationship? I think it's more like chaos theory. The link > could come from anywhere in all that's accumulated. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear as to what you mean by "linear relationship". All conditionality, according to the Buddha, requires the coming together of several conditions, and not all of these need be in the past - some may be co-occurring. -------------------------------------------------------- From 'out of the> > blue' a memory is triggered and I smell the sauerkraut my grandfather > made in the kitchen or hear his laughter. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, in fact, nothing really comes "out of the blue," but only because of causes and conditions. No doubt, some current event had characteristics in common with the remembered event. The common (or related) characteristics are the "connection" required for the triggering. Also, as far as I'm concerned, saying "I smell the sauerkraut my grandfather made in the kitchen or hear his laughter" is metaphorical. What you actually experience is a faithful sensory re-creation. Getting back to kamma and vipaka, to call an event vipaka of particular kamma requires a connection between them of the sort usually called "causal". The word 'vipaka' isn't translated as "result" for no reason. ------------------------------------------------------ Time is non-linear and all> > contained in each present moment. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Time is concept-only since there is ever and only "the present", but as it is experienced, it does not appear to be anything but linear. Time does not run backwards, for example, Dogen notwithstanding. There is a difference between the sequence of mental events as they occur, and the remembering of them in some other order. The remembering of events in a backwards order is itself a forward- unfolding sequence of events. ----------------------------------------------------- My history is just my understanding> > and ordering of events. Just another story to get me through in what we > call the real world. > > peace, > connie > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19710 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi again, Connie - In a message dated 2/17/03 5:07:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@h... writes: > I'm not sure what you mean by a causal connection between kamma and > corresponding vipaka. Are you saying there should be some recognizable > linear relationship? I think it's more like chaos theory. The link > could come from anywhere in all that's accumulated. ======================== I realize that I didn't directly answer this question in my previous reply. What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the four main characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and as reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), necessity (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or interdependence (idappaccayata). It is a relation of the general form of dependent origination: When there is this, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. When this is not, neither is that. With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] Causality in this sense does not require some hidden "causal power", but only the objectivity, necessity, invariability, and conditionality of the relationship between the conditions and their result. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19711 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: Contradictory Statements Hi Howard, Hope you don't mind if I jump into this; unfortunately, I am long winded as usual. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > vipáka: 'karma-result', is any karmically (morally) neutral mental > > phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense- consciousness, > > etc. ), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action > > (karma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some > > previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, > > everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any > > karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former > > action, being in reality itself karma. ===== I think that the point that Nyanatiloka is stressing here is that vipaka has no ethical quality. There is nothing "akusala" about akusala vipaka cittas. There is nothing "kusala" about kusala vipaka cittas. Vipaka cittas get a label of "akusala" or "kusala" to indicate what type of javana citta created them, not because of their ethical quality. An akusala javana citta creates kamma which will result in a citta called "akusala vipaka citta". All vipaka cittas are rootless; they have no moral quality. Conditions arise and something happens to me; the "something happening to me" is vipaka. What happens to me is not "good" or "bad", it is at the time that my reaction to what happens to me arises that the issue of "good" or "bad" occurs. Feeling (using the Buddhist definition here) arises naturally with every citta and is ethically variable. It is emotions (lobha-mula, dosa-mula, moha-mula) which follow that introduce an ethical dimension. In his statement, "Totally wrong...", Nyanatiloka is pointing out that volitional action is not vipaka; there is a point between stimulus and response and in that point is our freedom from samsara. ===== On this subject s. tittháyatana, > > karma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. > > 80).Karma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samutthána) corporeal things are never > > called kamma-vipáka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena. ===== As Rob K pointed out, this is an issue of semantics; mental states arising from kamma are called "vipaka" while rupa arising from kamma is called kammaja-rupa. ===== > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I was initially interested in this because of what I capitalize in the > noun phrase "any karmically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily > agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), WHICH IS THE > RESULT of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (karma, q.v.) through > body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life." It > underscores my insistance that vipaka must be the *result*, at least in part, > of the kamma. ===== I don't see "vipaka" as the "result" of volitional activities in the context of causality. I see it in terms of "conditions". Let me illustrate this point with an analogy. Is a tree a "result" of a seed? If we see a tree, we know that there must have been a seed, but there were many other conditions (sun, rain, soil, season, etc.) which also contributed to the existence of a tree. Each microsecond, there are millions of thought processes going on creating millions of "kammic seeds". Conditions will allow one of these "kammic seeds" to develop into a vipaka citta. In my mind, saying that vipaka is the "result of kamma" doesn't create the proper mental image of "conditions". ===== > But then I noted the final sentence, which states "Karma- produced > (kammaja or kamma-samutthána) corporeal things are never called kamma-vipáka, > as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena." Now, this is > interesting in its subtlety. However, it made me think of something stated by > the Buddha which seems to be in outright contradiction to this, namely the > following, taken from ATI: > > *********************************************** > "What is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, > > capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The > > intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being > > felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one > > does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect. This is called > > new kamma." > [SN XXXV.145] > ********************************************** ===== I see "old kamma" as the kamma which was active at the time of rebirth-linking. This kamma made us human and gave us the six sense bases. When, in the Paticcasamuppada, they talk about the six sense bases arising dependent on nama-rupa, we are talking about the 29 kamma-producing cittas which create rupa. The six sense bases are kammaja-rupa, as is the masculine/feminine rupa and the life faculty rupa, jivitindriya. Once this "old kamma" performs it's function at the time of rebirth linking, it keeps on repeating itself (in other words, we don't spontaneously change gender :-) ). I see "new kamma" as the kamma created now as a result of volitional activites. Once created, these new kammic seeds can perform one of three functions in the future: - They can become defunct because conditions do not arise for their ripening - Conditions can arise for the kammic seed to ripen into a vipaka citta some time in the current life or in a future life - Conditions can arise for the kammic seed to ripen into a rebirth linking citta at the time of a new existence. Note that rebirth linking cittas are actually vipaka cittas. ===== > I do see one possible way out of this apparent contradiction: In this > latter sutta material, eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and intellect are not > intended as corporeal things, but as modes of experience, so that "eye" means > not a physical eye, but the visual mode of experience. Any thoughts on this > folks? ===== Sorry Howard, I don't see any contradiction. Had the Buddha refered to the six sense bases as "vipaka", then there would have been a contradiction. I read this Sutta as the Buddha saying that kamma is a condition for the six sense bases; in other words, the six sense bases are kammaja-rupa. Interested in comments and corrections. Metta, Rob M:-) 19712 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard, I find the "cause - effect" approach to kamma to be misleading. Let me propose a different perpective on kamma. Every microsecond, millions of javana cittas in millions of thought processes arise. The cetana cetasika in each javana citta does two things: - Creates a kammic seed - Reinforces an accumulation (mental habit) Since many of the kammic seeds can last multiple lifetimes, we all have a gazillion kammic seeds waiting for the right conditions to arise so that they can develop into vipaka. No matter how "saintly" we may have been, we all have lots of "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds" hanging around waiting for the right conditions to arise. On 9-11, for a few thousand people, conditions arose which allowed "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds" to develop. Though, technically, there was a cause-effect relationship between the specific volitional activity and the "this-lifetime-ending vipaka", trying to understand this relationship is well beyond me. I believe that this is one of the stages of understanding that the Buddha developed on the night of His enlightenment. I find it useful to contemplate that cetana also reinforces an accumulation. What happens to us happens because of conditions and kammic seeds. How we react to what happens to us (and the new kammic seeds that we create) is dependent on our accumulations. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > For the constituents of a conventional event (such as the 9- 11 > massacre) to be kamma vipaka, the kamma must have been a condition for their > arising. It is not enough that the kamma preceded the event. > When A attacks B, and B subsequently counter-attacks, the subsequent > attack on A had the attack on B as condition. When a person is enraged, and > hurts himself due to his rage-induced lack of control, that hurt is kamma > vipaka. The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma and > corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a subsequent > event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or aspects of it, vipaka of > that kamma. I hope this clarifies what I've been writing about. 19713 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/17/03 7:50:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > I see "old kamma" as the kamma which was active at the time of > rebirth-linking. This kamma made us human and gave us the six sense > bases. When, in the Paticcasamuppada, they talk about the six sense > bases arising dependent on nama-rupa, we are talking about the 29 > kamma-producing cittas which create rupa. The six sense bases are > kammaja-rupa, as is the masculine/feminine rupa and the life faculty > rupa, jivitindriya. Once this "old kamma" performs it's function at > the time of rebirth linking, it keeps on repeating itself (in other > words, we don't spontaneously change gender :-) ). > > ========================== Ahhh. This is good - perhaps not even a contortion at all! ;-)) What the Buddha had in mind might indeed have been the sense organs at birth being an "incarnating" of old kamma. I find this to be a plausible reading. So, one should understand kamma vipaka as mental, including such things as feelings (with some things being felt as pleasant, others as unpleasant, and still others as neutral), interest (or lack of) with regard to particular phenomena, and attention (or lack thereof) with regard to particular phenomena - this last would include tending to notice some things but not others. What about reactions of craving and aversion? They, themselves, are not cetana. Does that mean they are vipaka and not kamma? That seems right to me: Craving and aversion are vipaka, but cetana having the craving or aversion as condition would be new, akusala kamma. One other question: Does the restriction of the term 'kamma vipaka' to mental phenomena occur in the Sutta Pitaka? And does the term 'kammaja-rupa' occur in the Sutta Pitaka? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19714 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kusala and akusala (was, Intention, willing and no-control) Hi Sarah, Thanks for clarifications on "kusala" and how it may or may not apply to an arahant. My question arose from the phrase "good actions of an Arahant and his meditative states" in Ven ~Nanatiloka's definition of kusala. I was wondering what "good" means when it doesn't relate to kamma. I understand from your reply that good means accompanied by at least 19 of the 25 sobhana cetasikas. Makes sense to me. Thanks. Larry 19715 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > So, one should understand kamma vipaka as mental, including such > things as feelings (with some things being felt as pleasant, others as > unpleasant, and still others as neutral), interest (or lack of) with regard > to particular phenomena, and attention (or lack thereof) with regard to > particular phenomena - this last would include tending to notice some things > but not others. ===== Vipaka is a type of citta which includes the cetasikas: - vedana (feeling) - sanna (perception) - cetana (coordinating role only, in a vipaka citta there is no "willing" that creates kamma) - ekaggata (focus) - jivitindriya (life) - manasikara (attention) ===== > What about reactions of craving and aversion? They, themselves, are > not cetana. Does that mean they are vipaka and not kamma? That seems right to > me: Craving and aversion are vipaka, but cetana having the craving or > aversion as condition would be new, akusala kamma. ===== The Buddha said, "Cetana is kamma, thus I say, O monks; for as soon as cetana arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or mind." Likewise in the technical analysis of the Paticcasamuppada, kamma is equated with the cetasika cetana. An important clarification here. In every citta, cetana arises and has a role of coordinating the various cetasikas and citta to work as a team. Only in javana cittas (those with roots), does cetana have an additional responsibility of "willing" and thereby creating kamma. The commentary likens cetana to "a boss who directs workers and also does his shere of the work as well; it is exceedingly energetic." In other words, in vipaka or kiriya cittas, cetana is only a boss (coordinating role only). In akusala or kusala cittas, cetana also does his share of the work (exceedingly energetic). You have correctly identified craving (lobha) and aversion (dosa) as "reactions"; they are not part of vipaka citta. Lobha and dosa are "roots" and vipaka cittas are rootless. All types of "reactions" (akusala and kusala) are javana cittas and create kamma. ===== > One other question: Does the restriction of the term 'kamma vipaka' to > mental phenomena occur in the Sutta Pitaka? And does the term 'kammaja-rupa' > occur in the Sutta Pitaka? ===== Sorry, don't know. Metta, Rob M :-) 19716 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements --- Dear howard, RobM gave many useful details. The realm of birth and also the sense organs such as eye base, ear base, heart base, tongue base are all conditioned by kamma. Someone may have excellent eyesight because of the good kamma that conditioned the eye base but at various times experience unsightly objects - The mental experience is at those moments akusala vipaka and the kamma that conditioned that vipaka is different from the kamma that conditioned the eyebase (even though they arise at the same moments). So complex and yet because of ignorance we imagine we are somewhat in control of situations. In fact kamma produces its various results supported by other conditions. By understanding this there is some detachment from the ups and downs of life, the puppet masters (craving and delusion) perhaps start to be glimpsed. Without this profound detachment based on understanding there will always be a fighting or a flowing with the flood of samsara- based on the view of self . I believe the path of insight is one of comprehending these conditioned factors and that means a gradual crossing of the flood. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 2/17/03 4:33:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > Vipaka is a term that applies to the mental result of kamma. But > > kamma also produces some rupa - as has been said many times on this > > forum - such as eye base(cakkhu pasada ) etc. These phenomena > > although conditioned by kamma are not called vipaka. > > Robert > > > ========================== > So, Robert, you are saying that various sorts of dhamma arise with > kamma as condition, but only mental results are called vipaka? But isn't the > realm of one's birth a basic case of kamma vipaka? The realm of birth doesn't > strike me as a mental phenomenon. > > With metta, > Howard 19717 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/17/03 8:20:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I find the "cause - effect" approach to kamma to be misleading. Let > me propose a different perpective on kamma. > > Every microsecond, millions of javana cittas in millions of thought > processes arise. The cetana cetasika in each javana citta does two > things: > - Creates a kammic seed > - Reinforces an accumulation (mental habit) > > Since many of the kammic seeds can last multiple lifetimes, we all > have a gazillion kammic seeds waiting for the right conditions to > arise so that they can develop into vipaka. No matter how "saintly" > we may have been, we all have lots of "this-lifetime-ending kammic > seeds" hanging around waiting for the right conditions to arise. > > On 9-11, for a few thousand people, conditions arose which > allowed "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds" to develop. > > Though, technically, there was a cause-effect relationship between > the specific volitional activity and the "this-lifetime-ending > vipaka", trying to understand this relationship is well beyond me. I > believe that this is one of the stages of understanding that the > Buddha developed on the night of His enlightenment. > > I find it useful to contemplate that cetana also reinforces an > accumulation. What happens to us happens because of conditions and > kammic seeds. How we react to what happens to us (and the new kammic > seeds that we create) is dependent on our accumulations. > > Comments? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I have a couple. The word 'vipaka' means result. In what way was the dieing of the 3000 the result of their previous kamma? I can understand how a kammic seed might result in a particular mental state under appropriate conditions, but I do not see how it results in an event such as that of 9-11. When and if Bin Laden is incarcerated for his crimes, I will see that event as kammaja-rupa, because the incarceration will have resulted, in part, from his original criminal action. I cannot say the same for the death of the 3000 - not because they had not committed akusala kamma at some point in the past that had not yet come to fruition (we all have such), but because there just is no connection between the kammic seed and the alleged result. A friend of mine arrived at the first tower minutes after it was hit, and was sent away. He had arrived late because something had come up to delay him. Others who died that day, such as the grandson of a friend of the family, had not been delayed. Did my friend's "good kamma" delay him? Did it "know" what was going to happen? Is kamma a god-like force? My answer to each of these three questions is "no". I do not deny such things as "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds". I only insist on relatedness, connectedness, and mechanisms for occurrence. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19718 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/17/03 8:59:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > So, one should understand kamma vipaka as mental, including > such > >things as feelings (with some things being felt as pleasant, > others as > >unpleasant, and still others as neutral), interest (or lack of) > with regard > >to particular phenomena, and attention (or lack thereof) with > regard to > >particular phenomena - this last would include tending to notice > some things > >but not others. > > ===== > > Vipaka is a type of citta which includes the cetasikas: > - vedana (feeling) > - sanna (perception) > - cetana (coordinating role only, in a vipaka citta there is > no "willing" that creates kamma) > - ekaggata (focus) > - jivitindriya (life) > - manasikara (attention) > > ===== > > > What about reactions of craving and aversion? They, > themselves, are > >not cetana. Does that mean they are vipaka and not kamma? That > seems right to > >me: Craving and aversion are vipaka, but cetana having the craving > or > >aversion as condition would be new, akusala kamma. > > ===== > > The Buddha said, "Cetana is kamma, thus I say, O monks; for as soon > as cetana arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or > mind." Likewise in the technical analysis of the Paticcasamuppada, > kamma is equated with the cetasika cetana. > > An important clarification here. In every citta, cetana arises and > has a role of coordinating the various cetasikas and citta to work > as a team. Only in javana cittas (those with roots), does cetana > have an additional responsibility of "willing" and thereby creating > kamma. The commentary likens cetana to "a boss who directs workers > and also does his shere of the work as well; it is exceedingly > energetic." In other words, in vipaka or kiriya cittas, cetana is > only a boss (coordinating role only). In akusala or kusala cittas, > cetana also does his share of the work (exceedingly energetic). > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Good. I've learned something here! -------------------------------------------------- > > You have correctly identified craving (lobha) and aversion (dosa) > as "reactions"; they are not part of vipaka citta. Lobha and dosa > are "roots" and vipaka cittas are rootless. All types of "reactions" > (akusala and kusala) are javana cittas and create kamma. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh. Okay. As I think about it, I realize that there is, indeed, cetana involved with craving and aversion. There is the will to grasp and the will to push away. In fact, this is *very* clear. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------ > > ===== > > > One other question: Does the restriction of the term 'kamma > vipaka' to > >mental phenomena occur in the Sutta Pitaka? And does the > term 'kammaja-rupa' > >occur in the Sutta Pitaka? > > ===== > > Sorry, don't know. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > =============================== Thanks, Rob. I've learned much from this post of yours! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19719 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/17/03 9:06:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > --- > Dear howard, > RobM gave many useful details. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I heartily agree! ----------------------------------------------- The realm of birth and also the sense > > organs such as eye base, ear base, heart base, tongue base are all > conditioned by kamma. Someone may have excellent eyesight because of > the good kamma that conditioned the eye base but at various times > experience unsightly objects - The mental experience is at those > moments akusala vipaka and the kamma that conditioned that vipaka is > different from the kamma that conditioned the eyebase (even though > they arise at the same moments). So complex and yet because of > ignorance we imagine we are somewhat in control of situations. In > fact kamma produces its various results supported by other > conditions. > By understanding this there is some detachment from the ups and downs > of life, the puppet masters (craving and delusion) perhaps start to > be glimpsed. > Without this profound detachment based on understanding there will > always be a fighting or a flowing with the flood of samsara- based on > the view of self . I believe the path of insight is one of > comprehending these conditioned factors and that means a gradual > crossing of the flood. > RobertK > ============================ Thanks, Robert. Very helpful. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19720 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > > As Nina said, there are other tests in life of > greater significance. > I would chirp, there are other more useful things to be developed than driving or cooking skills, but they are based on results of kamma / accumulations anyway... kom 19721 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I have a couple. The word 'vipaka' means result. In what way was > the dieing of the 3000 the result of their previous kamma? I can understand > how a kammic seed might result in a particular mental state under appropriate > conditions, but I do not see how it results in an event such as that of 9-11. ===== Let's consider what happened to a single victim. They were sitting down at their desk, starting to work with a gazillion kammic seeds. An airplane hits the tower and creates a condition. Because of that condition (among other conditions), the kammic seed which can end this lifetime arises for that individual. Everybody in the world (including the 3000 victims of 9-11) has lifetime-ending kammic seeds. In the case of 9-11, the airplane was a common condition for many of these kammic seed to develop at roughly the same time. The sun, rain, soil and seasons are common conditions that impact all of the seeds in the forest at the same time. The type of tree that grows in the forest depends on the seeds, but all seeds need sun, rain, soil and seasons. Each of the 9-11 victims had a different set kammic seeds caused by different past volitional activities. However, all of these people (and all other people) have, at some time or other in their past lifetimes, performed some kind of volitional activity which created a "lifetime-ending kammic seed". ===== > When and if Bin Laden is incarcerated for his crimes, I will see that event > as kammaja-rupa, because the incarceration will have resulted, in part, from > his original criminal action. ===== I think it might be a dangerous over-simplification to link Bin Landen's possible incarceration to the workings of kamma. ===== I cannot say the same for the death of the 3000 > - not because they had not committed akusala kamma at some point in the past > that had not yet come to fruition (we all have such), but because there just > is no connection between the kammic seed and the alleged result. ===== The kammic seed could have been created many lifetimes in the past. The result (lifetime ending vipaka) must have been connected to the original kammic seed, though only a Buddha can see the connection. Again, I think that we are getting caught up in a "cause - effect" paradigm. That is one way of looking at kamma - vipaka, but only a Buddha can understand kamma clearly from this perspective. I find the paradigm of "conditions" to be more satisfying. ===== > A friend of mine arrived at the first tower minutes after it was hit, > and was sent away. He had arrived late because something had come up to delay > him. Others who died that day, such as the grandson of a friend of the > family, had not been delayed. Did my friend's "good kamma" delay him? Did it > "know" what was going to happen? Is kamma a god-like force? My answer to each > of these three questions is "no". I do not deny such things as > "this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds". I only insist on relatedness, > connectedness, and mechanisms for occurrence. ===== Your friend's "good kamma" did not delay him. Conditions arose which caused your friend to be delayed. Had those delaying conditions not arisen, it is possible that your friend would have had this lifetime ended because he would have encountered the condition of the airplane. Conditions arise naturally, like the weather. Conditions don't look at the past actions of individuals and decide how to respond. The rain soaks everybody. Does this help Howard? Metta, Rob M :-) 19722 From: Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/17/03 10:30:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Yes, I have a couple. The word 'vipaka' means result. In > what way was > >the dieing of the 3000 the result of their previous kamma? I can > understand > >how a kammic seed might result in a particular mental state under > appropriate > >conditions, but I do not see how it results in an event such as > that of 9-11. > > ===== > > Let's consider what happened to a single victim. They were sitting > down at their desk, starting to work with a gazillion kammic seeds. > An airplane hits the tower and creates a condition. Because of that > condition (among other conditions), the kammic seed which can end > this lifetime arises for that individual. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Rob, that victim was engulfed by the explosion of the fuel contained in a fully fueled transcontinental airplane, or was buried under tons of rubble. That was quite enough to kill him. No fruiting seed was required in addition! Rob, he was KILLED! --------------------------------------------------- > > Everybody in the world (including the 3000 victims of 9-11) has > lifetime-ending kammic seeds. In the case of 9-11, the airplane was > a common condition for many of these kammic seed to develop at > roughly the same time. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Their seeds did nothing, Rob. ---------------------------------------------------- > > The sun, rain, soil and seasons are common conditions that impact > all of the seeds in the forest at the same time. The type of tree > that grows in the forest depends on the seeds, but all seeds need > sun, rain, soil and seasons. > > Each of the 9-11 victims had a different set kammic seeds caused by > different past volitional activities. However, all of these people > (and all other people) have, at some time or other in their past > lifetimes, performed some kind of volitional activity which created > a "lifetime-ending kammic seed". > > ===== > > >When and if Bin Laden is incarcerated for his crimes, I will see > that event > >as kammaja-rupa, because the incarceration will have resulted, in > part, from > >his original criminal action. > > ===== > > I think it might be a dangerous over-simplification to link Bin > Landen's possible incarceration to the workings of kamma. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: You could be right in this. ------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > I cannot say the same for the death of the 3000 > >- not because they had not committed akusala kamma at some point > in the past > >that had not yet come to fruition (we all have such), but because > there just > >is no connection between the kammic seed and the alleged result. > > ===== > > The kammic seed could have been created many lifetimes in the past. > The result (lifetime ending vipaka) must have been connected to the > original kammic seed, though only a Buddha can see the connection. > > Again, I think that we are getting caught up in a "cause - effect" > paradigm. That is one way of looking at kamma - vipaka, but only a > Buddha can understand kamma clearly from this perspective. I find > the paradigm of "conditions" to be more satisfying. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Why am I reminded of statements to the effect "God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform!"? I find this "condition analysis" to be meaningless. I don't buy it in the slightest. ------------------------------------------------ > > ===== > > > A friend of mine arrived at the first tower minutes after > it was hit, > >and was sent away. He had arrived late because something had come > up to delay > >him. Others who died that day, such as the grandson of a friend of > the > >family, had not been delayed. Did my friend's "good kamma" delay > him? Did it > >"know" what was going to happen? Is kamma a god-like force? My > answer to each > >of these three questions is "no". I do not deny such things as > >"this-lifetime-ending kammic seeds". I only insist on relatedness, > >connectedness, and mechanisms for occurrence. > > ===== > > Your friend's "good kamma" did not delay him. Conditions arose which > caused your friend to be delayed. Had those delaying conditions not > arisen, it is possible that your friend would have had this lifetime > ended because he would have encountered the condition of the > airplane. Conditions arise naturally, like the weather. Conditions > don't look at the past actions of individuals and decide how to > respond. The rain soaks everybody. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with all you just wrote, Rob. I couldn't have said it better! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Does this help Howard? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, the last stuff you wrote did! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19723 From: robmoult Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi Howard, Looks like we disagree again! This is great! I have never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me. I really enjoyed the exchange the last time that we disagreed. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Rob, that victim was engulfed by the explosion of the fuel contained > in a fully fueled transcontinental airplane, or was buried under tons of > rubble. That was quite enough to kill him. No fruiting seed was required in > addition! Rob, he was KILLED! > --------------------------------------------------- ===== The fire or rubble impacted the victim's body. The death (cuti) citta arose because conditions (including what happened to the body) allowed it to arise. There cannot be death without a cuti citta. The falling away of the cuti citta was a condition for the arising of the patisandhi (rebirth linking) citta which started a new lifetime. I apologize if the analytical approach that I am taking to such an emotionally-charged incident seems insensitive. ===== > > > > Everybody in the world (including the 3000 victims of 9-11) has > > lifetime-ending kammic seeds. In the case of 9-11, the airplane was > > a common condition for many of these kammic seed to develop at > > roughly the same time. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Their seeds did nothing, Rob. > ---------------------------------------------------- ===== Their seeds developed into vipaka (whatever happens to us is vipaka). That is all that seeds ever do. ===== > > The kammic seed could have been created many lifetimes in the past. > > The result (lifetime ending vipaka) must have been connected to the > > original kammic seed, though only a Buddha can see the connection. > > > > Again, I think that we are getting caught up in a "cause - effect" > > paradigm. That is one way of looking at kamma - vipaka, but only a > > Buddha can understand kamma clearly from this perspective. I find > > the paradigm of "conditions" to be more satisfying. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Why am I reminded of statements to the effect "God works in mysterious > ways his wonders to perform!"? I find this "condition analysis" to be > meaningless. I don't buy it in the slightest. > ------------------------------------------------ ===== To me, the statement "God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform!" brings with it certain connotations: 1. God has an "agenda" 2. God does not mean for us to understand His agenda 3. God takes actions to implement His agenda 4. Outcomes are according to God's agenda (not our responsibility) My Buddhist perspective is: 1. There is no "agenda"; simply laws of nature 2. Beings such as ourselves, with lots of dust in our eyes, cannot understand the laws of nature, but the laws of nature can be comprehended (when we reach Buddhahood). 3. It is a law of nature that when conditions are met, a seed can develop. The development of a seed is not the "will of God", it is not the "will of the seed" and it is not the "will of the conditions"; it is simply a law of nature. 4. Outcomes (our current situation) is vipaka It is through conditions that the links of Dependent Origination are connected, not through cause-effect relationships. As an example, let's take the first link, "Through ignorance are conditioned the karma-formations" (WARNING, I AM ABOUT TO GET TECHNICAL): Ignorance is moha in the 12 akusala cittas. Kamma-formations refers to the active formation of wholesome or unwholesome kamma through volitional activities. There are three types of kamma-formations: - demeritorious (cetana in 12 akusala cittas) - meritorious (cetana in 8 kamavacara kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas) - imperturbable (cetana in 4 arupavacara kusala cittas) Ignorance conditions kusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: - Object Condition: When one comprehends by means of insight that ignorance leads to unhappy states (kamavacara and rupavacara) - Natural Decisive Support Condition: When ignorance (conceit, vanity, etc.) motivates one to good deeds (kamavacara, rupavacara and arupavacara) Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: - Root Condition: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas - Object Condition: When one is deluded into thinking that ignorance is a happy state - Object Predominance Condition / Decisive Support of Object Condition: When one remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but does not see it as akusala - Proximity Condition / Contiguity Condition: There is no separation in time or space between the arising of moha and the arising of the associated citta and cetasikas - Co-nascence Condition: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas arise together - Mutuality Condition: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas mutually support and mutually reinforce each other - Support Condition: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas - Natural Decisive Support Condition: Moha, together with greed or aversion, motivate one to perform bad deeds - Repetition Condition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta conditions delusion in the second and so on - Association Condition: Moha is associated with its cittas and cetasikas through a common base, common base, common arising and common falling away - Presence Condition / Non-Disappearance Condition: The presence of moha allows the citta and other cetasikas to arise - Absence Condition / Disappearance Condition: When the first akusala javana citta falls away, this creates the condition for the second akusala javana citta to arise (up to the seventh akusala javana citta) Howard, the above analysis is a bit technical, but I wanted to illustrate that conditions and "condition analaysis" is at the core of Dependent Origination, not cause-effect. I am human in this lifetime. Why? Not because of a "God", but rather because conditions arose at the end of my previous lifetime which allowed an appropriate kammic seed to develop. I do not have the insight to know what those conditions were or what past volitional action I did to create that kammic seed. I'm okay with that. Howard, I think that I can I summarize our difference of opinion as follows: - Howard wants to take a cause-effect approach to understanding kamma - Howard feels that a conditions approach to kamma may be technically accurate, but is of limited value - Rob wants to take a conditions approach to understanding kamma - Rob feels that a cause-effect approach to kamma may be technically accurate, but is of limited value Howard, have I correctly interpreted your position? Metta, Rob M :-) 19724 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:12am Subject: Howard's Access Concentration? Dear Howard How are you? You wrote: "With meditation on the body (on the breath and bodily sensations) I often reach access concentration, and *possibly* the 1st jhana on occasion, but it was only via mantra meditation that I ever got beyond this level. (I seem to have an affinity towards sound.)" It is quite intriguing to hear that you have often reached access concentration (upacaa samaadhi). As Buddhaghosa said in Visuddhimaggo, it is very difficult for a human being to reach even the level of access concentration, let alone the jhaana level. But, you also said that you used mantra (an alien approach in the Buddha's teachnings) to go beyond the level of access concentration, I wonder if you could describe the signs of your access concentration. And, as you teach mathematics (and sciences?) and are likely to follow the scientific method in your profession, I also wonder if you have tested your concentration if it was indeed an access concentration. If you haven't already done so, you could follow the following procedure to test your concentration. Hypothesis - "The upacaa samaadhi is transferable." Prediction - "You must be able to generate the signs of upacca samaadhi with any standard meditational object." Test - Use one of the ten kasi.na objects as your meditational object. Evaluate - Check the signs of your concentration in your test against those described in Visuddhimaggo. If you could generate the same signs described in Visuddhimaggo, then your concentration is indeed upaccaa samaadhi. Otherwise, it is not access concentration. Looking forward to your test results, and good luck to you! With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Larry - A word/sound pattern is only one possibility for meditation subject, and, in fact, I think it may *not* have been among the 40 that the Buddha listed. It is the case that my one unambiguously jhanic experience, which had elements of 5th and 6th jhana, happens to have been induced by mantra meditation. With meditation on the body (on the breath and bodily sensations) I often reach access concentration, and *possibly* the 1st jhana on occasion, but it was only via mantra meditation that I ever got beyond this level. (I seem to have an affinity towards sound.) With metta, Howard 19725 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Howard, Thanks for your reply and the second post of your self-correction. Could you explain more clearly how Pannatti does arise and how it passess away? When someone says in Japanese,one who knows it understands it.The same meaning again is said by the other person in Mandarin,one using it will well understand it.If the same sentence is said in Panjabi then the same thing will happen.At that particular moment one who knows all these languages will understand it only in one sense (meaning,essence). One who have enough power(Jhana and has Paracitta-vijjanana) will know the meaning without language.Pannatti is a matter of debate I think.How will you explain all about these? With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - >Pannatta is not a real thing or it is not a Paramattha Sacca.It has no lifespan.It does not arise or pass away ... then ... But, of course, there *are* concepts. > Whenever we think of a tree or a table or a house, there is a concept, and > whenever we "see" one of these, we are applying a concept as a template to a > bundle of just-passed visual experiences. Both the concepts themselves and > the application of them to "bundles of just-passed experiences" actually > occur. So, there *are* pa~n~natti in the sense of mentally constructed > phenomena that are used as templates applied to aggregates of direct > experiences. These pa~n~natti DO arise and pass away, for they exist and are > conditioned, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent! > Now, the word 'pa~n~natta' is *also* used for the alleged *referent* > of a concept. Even when that is a paramattha dhamma, it is not an existent in > the mode that it is grasped by the pa~n~natta, for that mode of (conceptual) > grasping is merely indirect and inferential. Of course, the referent of a > *complex* concept such as 'tree' isn't even amenable to direct experiencing > but *only* via the mental construct of 'tree'. But the conventional tree is > not nothing at all, because it is based on an aggregate of actual, > interrelated, direct experiences. Conventional objects such as trees, though > not existing *as such*, independent of our conceptualization, still can be > considered to be impermanent; to the extent that they exist, which is merely > conventional, they are derivatively impermanent, because the underlying > "realities" are impermanent. The "tree" is seen to grow from a seed, to > constantly change, with leaves growing and falling off, with branches > accupying varying conditions - swaying in the breeze. That is all, of course, > merely a conventional manner of speaking, but it reflects the reality of the > impermanence of the paramattha dhammas underlying "the tree". I think we > tread on dangerous ground when we speak of things other than nibbana as > neither arising nor ceasing. > > With metta, > Howard 19726 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/18/03 12:31:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Looks like we disagree again! This is great! I have never learned > anything from anybody who agreed with me. I really enjoyed the > exchange the last time that we disagreed. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >--------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Rob, that victim was engulfed by the explosion of the fuel > contained > >in a fully fueled transcontinental airplane, or was buried under > tons of > >rubble. That was quite enough to kill him. No fruiting seed was > required in > >addition! Rob, he was KILLED! > >--------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > The fire or rubble impacted the victim's body. The death (cuti) > citta arose because conditions (including what happened to the body) > allowed it to arise. There cannot be death without a cuti citta. The > falling away of the cuti citta was a condition for the arising of > the patisandhi (rebirth linking) citta which started a new lifetime. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand what you are saying here, Rob. But let me point out something: What is happening is that the kammic seed is "discharged" as a result of the death occurring, but the death occurred because of the explosion or rubble. The seed didn't contribute to the death. There is no means for it to have done so. It didn't "put" the victim at that particular place, at that particular time, in order for the death to occur! The original kamma which produced the "seed" had no effect on the death occurring - the actions (kamma) of the Al Qaida hijackers took care of that! The cuti citta arose because of life-terminating conditions. Are you proposing that the same massive explosion or tons of rubble would have failed to produce death were there no "seed" present? If so, I'd like to know how that would be so. [On the other hand, if the whole kammic business amounted to 1) an original bad deed (say killing) had been done, 2) a "seed" was produced as result, and 3) when appropriate conditions occurred, the "seed" was released, then the kamma had no effect on a conventional event - it merely produced something (the "seed") which subsequently ceased, and it might as well be ignored.] ----------------------------------------------------- > > I apologize if the analytical approach that I am taking to such an > emotionally-charged incident seems insensitive. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. That is not an issue in the slightest. ------------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > >> > >>Everybody in the world (including the 3000 victims of 9-11) has > >>lifetime-ending kammic seeds. In the case of 9-11, the airplane > was > >>a common condition for many of these kammic seed to develop at > >>roughly the same time. > >> > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Their seeds did nothing, Rob. > >---------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > Their seeds developed into vipaka (whatever happens to us is > vipaka). That is all that seeds ever do. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Exactly what vipaka? What was the effect of the seed, and how was that effect accomplished (by the *seed*, not by conditions that would have done the same thing without any seed)? ------------------------------------------------------------ > > ===== > > >>The kammic seed could have been created many lifetimes in the > past. > >>The result (lifetime ending vipaka) must have been connected to > the > >>original kammic seed, though only a Buddha can see the > connection. > >> > >>Again, I think that we are getting caught up in a "cause - > effect" > >>paradigm. That is one way of looking at kamma - vipaka, but only > a > >>Buddha can understand kamma clearly from this perspective. I > find > >>the paradigm of "conditions" to be more satisfying. > >------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Why am I reminded of statements to the effect "God works in > mysterious > >ways his wonders to perform!"? I find this "condition analysis" to > be > >meaningless. I don't buy it in the slightest. > >------------------------------------------------ > > ===== > > To me, the statement "God works in mysterious ways his wonders to > perform!" brings with it certain connotations: > 1. God has an "agenda" > 2. God does not mean for us to understand His agenda > 3. God takes actions to implement His agenda > 4. Outcomes are according to God's agenda (not our responsibility) > > My Buddhist perspective is: > 1. There is no "agenda"; simply laws of nature > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: If we are talking about "natural laws", we should know something about the details of how they work. -------------------------------------------------------- > 2. Beings such as ourselves, with lots of dust in our eyes, cannot > understand the laws of nature, but the laws of nature can be > comprehended (when we reach Buddhahood). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep. Leave it to God. (Rob, we can understand other laws of nature in great detail. why can we not understand how a kammic seed is needed for the death of one blown to pieces by a massive explosion?) ------------------------------------------------------- > 3. It is a law of nature that when conditions are met, a seed can > develop. The development of a seed is not the "will of God", it is > not the "will of the seed" and it is not the "will of the > conditions"; it is simply a law of nature. > 4. Outcomes (our current situation) is vipaka > > It is through conditions that the links of Dependent Origination are > connected, not through cause-effect relationships. As an example, > let's take the first link, "Through ignorance are conditioned the > karma-formations" (WARNING, I AM ABOUT TO GET TECHNICAL): > > Ignorance is moha in the 12 akusala cittas. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I thought it was ignorance of the four noble truths and of the tilakkhana. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Kamma-formations refers to the active formation of wholesome or > unwholesome kamma through volitional activities. There are three > types of kamma-formations: > - demeritorious (cetana in 12 akusala cittas) > - meritorious (cetana in 8 kamavacara kusala cittas and 5 > rupavacara kusala cittas) > - imperturbable (cetana in 4 arupavacara kusala cittas) > > Ignorance conditions kusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: > - Object Condition: When one comprehends by means of insight that > ignorance leads to unhappy states (kamavacara and rupavacara) > - Natural Decisive Support Condition: When ignorance (conceit, > vanity, etc.) motivates one to good deeds (kamavacara, rupavacara > and arupavacara) > > Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: > - Root Condition: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas > - Object Condition: When one is deluded into thinking that > ignorance is a happy state > - Object Predominance Condition / Decisive Support of Object > Condition: When one remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but > does not see it as akusala > - Proximity Condition / Contiguity Condition: There is no > separation in time or space between the arising of moha and the > arising of the associated citta and cetasikas > - Co-nascence Condition: Moha and the associated citta and > cetasikas arise together > - Mutuality Condition: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas > mutually support and mutually reinforce each other > - Support Condition: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas > - Natural Decisive Support Condition: Moha, together with greed or > aversion, motivate one to perform bad deeds > - Repetition Condition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta > conditions delusion in the second and so on > - Association Condition: Moha is associated with its cittas and > cetasikas through a common base, common base, common arising and > common falling away > - Presence Condition / Non-Disappearance Condition: The presence of > moha allows the citta and other cetasikas to arise > - Absence Condition / Disappearance Condition: When the first > akusala javana citta falls away, this creates the condition for the > second akusala javana citta to arise (up to the seventh akusala > javana citta) > > Howard, the above analysis is a bit technical, but I wanted to > illustrate that conditions and "condition analaysis" is at the core > of Dependent Origination, not cause-effect. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand the difference between conditionality and causality as a substantial "force". Let me repeat here what I wrote to Connie: *************************************** What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the four main characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and as reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), necessity (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or interdependence (idappaccayata). It is a relation of the general form of dependent origination: When there is this, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. When this is not, neither is that. With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] Causality in this sense does not require some hidden "causal power", but only the objectivity, necessity, invariability, and conditionality of the relationship between the conditions and their result. ******************************************* > > I am human in this lifetime. Why? Not because of a "God", but rather > because conditions arose at the end of my previous lifetime which > allowed an appropriate kammic seed to develop. I do not have the > insight to know what those conditions were or what past volitional > action I did to create that kammic seed. I'm okay with that. > > Howard, I think that I can I summarize our difference of opinion as > follows: > - Howard wants to take a cause-effect approach to understanding > kamma > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: True, if one understands "cause-effect" in the correct sense. ------------------------------------------------------ > - Howard feels that a conditions approach to kamma may be > technically accurate, but is of limited value > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not true. I consider the "conditions approach" to kamma-vipaka (as you have described it) as one which makes the kamma-vipaka relation entirely worthless and of no interest or relevance! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------------- > - Rob wants to take a conditions approach to understanding kamma --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. --------------------------------------------------------- > - Rob feels that a cause-effect approach to kamma may be > technically accurate, but is of limited value ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, there is some nice symmetry here! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard, have I correctly interpreted your position? > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Please see my previous comments in this regard. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is one final point I'd like to make, Rob. The Buddha stated clearly and repeatedly that not all that happens to one is due to one's own kamma. He specifically gave *assault by others* as one alternative. That fits the situation we are discussing quite well. Why is this being ignored? Was the Buddha wrong? ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19727 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:07am Subject: (5) Nibbana As Absolute Peace Dear Dhamma Friends, It is totally impossible to describe Nibbana.It is unthinkable,unimaginable but it can surely be experienced by an individual who has enough Parami and has passed through the necessary path at least three stages. Peace itself is not enough to describe Nibbana and even absolute peace is not a synonym for Nibbana even though I give the heading like this.Most people wrongly interpret Nibbana with some irrelevant matters. Mere absence of Dukkha is not Nibbana.Some time ago,people who reached higher Jhanacittas presumed their achievement as near Nibbana or true Nibbana.Even worse,the highest Jhanacitta that is the fourth Arupajhanacitta is extremely quiet and calms to the best.So it might be confused with Nibbana.This view is totally wrong.If a Puthujana obtains that Arupajhana he will be born(that means he will exist in his next existance) as Arupa-brahma in which case as he is a Puthujana then he will lose his apportunity to attain Sotapattimaggacitta in that Bhumi. To talk about Nibbana is extremely difficult and it is almost impossible to understand. There were a turtle and a fish.They met in an ocean.They both knew well about the water they experienced.One day,the turtle reached the shore and he crept up to the land.Then he learned well about the land.When he return to the ocean met again with the fish and he told all about the land he experienced to the fish. As the fish never experienced the land all he heard from the turtle were all impossible and unthinkable and unimaginable but the land did exist and the turtle really experienced it but the fish could not understand about the land what it meant, what it really was,and so on.He asked the turtle that whether the land was wet,the land could be swun through,the land was clear enough so that the light could pass through and so on.And he could not accept what the turtle said and he assumed the land as impossible thing.Actually the fish weighted the knowledge of the land with his own knowledge of the water he was in. Ariyan who experienced Nibbana can talk about Nibbana but Puthujana will never understand with his Lokiyanana.But there exists Nibbana.It can be experienced and there clearly IS the way to attain IT.That is The Noble Eight-fold Path. The practice of Mahasatipathana will one day leads the practitioner to Nibbana.Nibbana is Asankhata so Kamma,Citta,Utu and Ahara cannot affect Nibbana. It can be experienced by Anagamiphala-puggala and Arahattaphalapuggala with their present life for 7 days the process which is called as ''Niroda-samapatta'' even before their Parinibbana. Therefore someone who is suspicious about Nibbana can abolish his by trying to obtain Anagamimaggacitta and practicing ''Niroda- samapatta'' when he will definitely experience Nibbana. May you all have enough Parami to attain Anagamimaggacitta or Arahattamaggacitta and experience Nibbana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 19728 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's Access Concentration? Hi, Suan - To answer your query, I presume the state is access concentration. Whatever it is, it has the following features: Great calm, great joy, great ease of staying on the breath, awareness of other phenomena but not being bothered or distracted by them, and, sometimes, a kind of ecstasy as well. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/18/03 9:14:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > Dear Howard > > How are you? > > You wrote: > > "With meditation on the body (on the breath and bodily sensations) > I often reach access concentration, and *possibly* the 1st jhana on > occasion, but it was only via mantra meditation that I ever got > beyond this level. (I seem to have an affinity towards sound.)" > > It is quite intriguing to hear that you have often reached access > concentration (upacaa samaadhi). > > As Buddhaghosa said in Visuddhimaggo, it is very difficult for a > human being to reach even the level of access concentration, let > alone the jhaana level. > > But, you also said that you used mantra (an alien approach in the > Buddha's teachnings) to go beyond the level of access concentration, > I wonder if you could describe the signs of your access > concentration. > > And, as you teach mathematics (and sciences?) and are likely to > follow the scientific method in your profession, I also wonder if you > have tested your concentration if it was indeed an access > concentration. > > If you haven't already done so, you could follow the following > procedure to test your concentration. > > Hypothesis - "The upacaa samaadhi is transferable." > > Prediction - "You must be able to generate the signs of upacca > samaadhi with any standard meditational object." > > Test - Use one of the ten kasi.na objects as your meditational object. > > Evaluate - Check the signs of your concentration in your test against > those described in Visuddhimaggo. If you could generate the same > signs described in Visuddhimaggo, then your concentration is indeed > upaccaa samaadhi. Otherwise, it is not access concentration. > > Looking forward to your test results, and good luck to you! > > With kind regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19729 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Htoo - In the following you ask "Could you explain more clearly how Pannatti does arise and how it passess away?" No, I don't think I can. I don't quite understand what you are asking for. When I think of a tree, that is the arising of the concept 'tree', and when I cease to think of it, that is the ceasing of hat concept. It is just the same as when I experience hardness, that is the arising of the rupa of hardness, and when I cease to experience it, that is the cessation of it. When I become a better vipassanika, perhaps I will be better able to answer you. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/18/03 9:27:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for your reply and the second post of your self-correction. > Could you explain more clearly how Pannatti does arise and how it > passess away? > > When someone says in Japanese,one who knows it understands it.The > same meaning again is said by the other person in Mandarin,one using > it will well understand it.If the same sentence is said in Panjabi > then > the same thing will happen.At that particular moment one who knows > all these languages will understand it only in one sense > (meaning,essence). > > One who have enough power(Jhana and has Paracitta-vijjanana) will > know the meaning without language.Pannatti is a matter of debate I > think.How will you explain all about these? > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Htoo - > > >Pannatta is not a real thing or it is not a Paramattha Sacca.It has > no lifespan.It does not arise or pass away ... > then ... But, of course, there *are* concepts. > >Whenever we think of a tree or a table or a house, there is a > concept, and > >whenever we "see" one of these, we are applying a concept as a > template to a > >bundle of just-passed visual experiences. Both the concepts > themselves and > >the application of them to "bundles of just-passed experiences" > actually > >occur. So, there *are* pa~n~natti in the sense of mentally > constructed > >phenomena that are used as templates applied to aggregates of > direct > >experiences. These pa~n~natti DO arise and pass away, for they > exist and are > >conditioned, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent! > > Now, the word 'pa~n~natta' is *also* used for the alleged > *referent* > >of a concept. Even when that is a paramattha dhamma, it is not an > existent in > >the mode that it is grasped by the pa~n~natta, for that mode of > (conceptual) > >grasping is merely indirect and inferential. Of course, the > referent of a > >*complex* concept such as 'tree' isn't even amenable to direct > experiencing > >but *only* via the mental construct of 'tree'. But the conventional > tree is > >not nothing at all, because it is based on an aggregate of actual, > >interrelated, direct experiences. Conventional objects such as > trees, though > >not existing *as such*, independent of our conceptualization, still > can be > >considered to be impermanent; to the extent that they exist, which > is merely > >conventional, they are derivatively impermanent, because the > underlying > >"realities" are impermanent. The "tree" is seen to grow from a > seed, to > >constantly change, with leaves growing and falling off, with > branches > >accupying varying conditions - swaying in the breeze. That is all, > of course, > >merely a conventional manner of speaking, but it reflects the > reality of the > >impermanence of the paramattha dhammas underlying "the tree". I > think we > >tread on dangerous ground when we speak of things other than > nibbana as > >neither arising nor ceasing. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19730 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: concept and insight Dear Jon, In Bgk we learnt that at the second stage of insight even the space in between tiny groups of rupa can be discerned. I understand, because how otherwise could groups be distinguished. Still,I cannot help thinking : In that case, when touching hardness one could experience through the bodysense different groups of rupa. I have a kind of wrong imagination, because it is panna that knows characteristics after touching. I know the answer: when time comes... And as A. Sujin said, we do not have to think of groups. Still, I would like your opinion, and could you bring it up again in Bgk? I found it a difficult subject. Thank you, Nina. 19731 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 26 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 26 If we want to realize the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, if we want to eradicate defilements and penetrate the four noble Truths, we should carefully consider the Dhamma contained in these stanzas. They deal with the eradication of defilements so that we have forbearing patience. We read: ²Even wise men may quarrel, But quickly they can become closely united again.² Even among wise people there may be reasons for them to be moody and angry, but quickly they can amend for this and become closely united. This is because they are wise. When we have passed away, we have forgotten all the events of this life, but when we are still alive, we still remember what happened. Do we remember events in a wise way or in a foolish way? If we are wise, even though we remember a wrong action which was done, we can forgive. Even though wise people may quarrel, they can quickly become closely united, they can forgive one another. They can become close friends with each other again, they can give support to each other from then on. This is because they understand the Dhamma. With regard to foolish people, they break apart like earthen vessels which are untempered. They are unable to calm down their hatred. We read that the Bodhisatta said: If someone knows the wrong by which he offended someone else, and he expresses in words that he was wrong, both people can live in greater harmony, their friendship cannot be destroyed. We should know the wrong by which we offended someone else and give expression to our wrong. We should not merely know that we were wrong, if we know this but do not give expression to our regret, we are still brooding. Sometimes we may keep on thinking about what happened and be irritated. But if a person who offended someone else and expresses that he was wrong, both people can live in greater harmony, they will understand each other more clearly. There will be no more problems between them, their close friendship cannot be destroyed. We read: If someone, when another person offends him, can cause both to be united in harmony, he is considered as a person who takes upon himself a weighty and worthy task. This means that if a person has forgiven someone else, and the other person, inspite of this, still offends, he can cause both himself and the other person to reconciled and live in harmony, and thus, he is someone who is superior, who fulfills a weighty task. Therefore, someone should really have paññå so that he can consider and see how he should behave in a way which is to the benefit of others. If he lacks paññå, even though the Bodhisatta spoke as in the above-quoted Jåtaka, or the Buddha spoke about beneficial conduct, he will not follow those advices, he will not be inclined to do what is beneficial. 19732 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and concepts Dear Howard and Smallchap, op 15-02-2003 20:52 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> >> op 13-02-2003 20:25 schreef htootintnaing op >> htootintnaing@y...: >>> >>> Aniccata is one of four Lakkhana-rupas. > ============================ H: In fact, it's just a concept, isn't it? We never directly observe > impermanence. (snipped) Likewise, dependent arising > is concept-only. There occur dependently arisen dhammas, but dependent > origination is concept-only. These are, of course, well grounded concepts, > not imaginary, and, in fact, of supreme importance, but they are concepts, > nonetheless. In abhidhamma, everything is either paramattha dhamma or > pa~n~natta. Impermanence and paticcasamupada are pa~n~natti. (All the more > reason to avoid speaking of pa~n~natti as nonexistent, I'd say.) N: The khandhas, impermanence, knowledge of the ownership of kamma (kammasakata ~naa.na), Dependent Origination, they all seem concepts to us, don't they? A good point you bring up here. In Bgk, I said to A. Sujin, that the khandhas seem to be a concept, groups containing a whole of dhammas. She explained that we may think of khandha as a whole, it seems as if it is a concept. It is a concept so long as we have not yet directly experienced the khandhas. When the second stage of insight is reached the khandhas can be directly experienced, dhammas that arise and fall away, that are past, present and future. We were also talking about groups of rupa. A. Sujin said,: ³You do not have to think of a group. We should not try to understand that word. When there is an idea of group, it is thinking. We do not have to count groups. Develop understanding of visible object: it is not the reality that experiences. The nåma experiences it. See the difference between nåma and rúpa. Why should we think of groups? It is a stage of insight knowledge that understands what groups are. People have different abilities. We do not have the wisdom of a Buddha, but that does not mean that all these realities cannot be experienced by insight knowledge." We are bound to have expectations to experience the arising and falling away of realities, however, the Tipitaka points to elimination, to the eradication of defilements. If we think of our progress, we are thinking of ourselves. When there is even one moment of understanding there is no condition to think of ourselves. Each moment of understanding is very precious, we should be grateful to the Buddha who taught us the Dhamma. H: To awaken to the truth of impermanence is actually to lose the belief > in permanence and, ultimately, the sense of permanence with regard to > conditioned dhammas. To awaken to the truth of not-self, is to lose the > belief in (and ultimately the sense of) a core to be found in the "person" or > in any dhamma, to lose the tendency towards reification. At least this is how > I see the matter. N: The question is only, how? To come back to concepts and ideas we have about realities: dependent origination is all about realities, it explains relations between realities. Impermamence: it is a characteristic pertaining to realities. Knowledge of the ownership of kamma: this is directly realized when one has reached a stage of insight. Now, words are still needed to express the characteristics of realities. When time comes, when sufficient conditions have been accumulated, panna can directly experience all that seems a concept just now. Then no words are needed. Yes, for me, it is also very difficult to grasp. The difference between nama and rupa has to be clearly distinguished by panna. Rupa has to be known as rupa, but...you will say that they cannot be separated according to phenomenology. I understand your point of view. What, if you see phenomenology as an enterprise with detachment. You have to start with detachment and detachment is the goal. This is very difficult because it goes against our nature. Panna has to arise with alobha, it accompanies kusala citta with detachment all the way. I would say, no "I" who wants to know, just let it come by conditions. You know the conditions: listening, considering.Theoretical understanding, pariyatti, includes wise consideration of the dhamma one hears.Then you will find out what rupa really is. Different from what you thought at first. Nama is pure nama, no rupa blended in. Hardness does not know anything. When shall we understand that hardness in a rock or in the body is exactly the same? This must lead to detachment. Hardness is a characteristic of rupa, it is unalterable. Now comes Smallchap's question: S: In this case, is it correct to say that one cannot attain udayabbayaanupassanaa-~naa.na (arising and falling away of dhammas) before one attains Nama-rupa-pariccheda-~naa.na, Paccaya-pariggaha-~naa.na, and sammassana~naa.na? N: That is correct. What falls away? One nama or one rupa at a time can be realized as impermament. Citta with panna can know only one object at a time, either a nama or a rupa. We see in all the suttas: six doorways are explained all the time, as being separate. At each following stage of insight there is a little more detachment from the idea of person. Detachment is needed to be aware of what naturally arises. I was reminded in Bgk: if we think, O no, not this object, there can already be wrong practice, silabbata paramasa. May we all help each other to walk the right Path, Nina. 19733 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg]speech Hi Larry, op 16-02-2003 02:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for the clarification. I think I see the difference between > concept and speech. Speech is a reality, an activity that causes > results, while concept is abstract and has no causal function. But > speech is made up of concepts. This is the part I don't understand. Does > Patisambhidamagga have anything to say about the relationship between > speech and concept? N: There is a difference between the rupa speech intimation that hasthe function in conditioning the utterance of speech. As to the contents of speech, this is another subject. We can speak about realities or about ideas or concepts, such as the world, peace, etc. Nina. 19734 From: bodhi342 Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: (5) Nibbana As Absolute Peace Dear Htoo and All, I found your excellent analogy to explain why Nibbana is indescribable, very interesting. All descriptions that try to encompass or capture the essence of the ultimate unconditioned reality necessarily fail. I would like to extend your analogy by considering the following possibilities: That first turtle would 'know' the land from its own experience, and would likely go back there by the same route. That is completely natural, understandable, and indeed, expected. So is its own assumption that only it knows the way to the land. Is it possible for other turtles, or even other animals, say crocodiles, penguins etc. to also have experienced both land and ocean? And if so, could they have got on to the same land at different locations, at different times, using different means? I would encourage calm consideration of the implications of these possibilities because they have both practical application and lend themselves to the type of testing that the Buddha recommended. metta, dharam 19735 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 1:15pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Howard: What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the four main characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and as reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), necessity (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or interdependence (idappaccayata). Thanks, Howard. I'm not sure what I meant by 'linear relationship', either, but am happy with the above, not that I understand it, but it gives me a direction. I haven't found SN II.25. Would you have it's name by any chance? Sorry, if it's not on-line, in English, I can't read it. Would that be David Kalupahana? peace, connie 19736 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Connie - In a message dated 2/18/03 4:08:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@h... writes: > > Thanks, Howard. > > I'm not sure what I meant by 'linear relationship', either, but am happy > with the above, not that I understand it, but it gives me a direction. > I haven't found SN II.25. Would you have it's name by any chance? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I'm sorry. I know I've seen the sutta, itself, independent of Kalupahana's quoting from it, because I've read the entire Samyutta Nikaya, but I don't recall the name. ------------------------------------------------ > Sorry, if it's not on-line, in English, I can't read it. Would that be > David Kalupahana? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that's him. -------------------------------------------- > > peace, > connie > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19737 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:13pm Subject: Re: (5) Nibbana As Absolute Peace Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing " wrote: < snip > Mere absence of Dukkha is not Nibbana.Some time ago,people who reached higher Jhanacittas presumed their achievement as near Nibbana or true Nibbana.Even worse,the highest Jhanacitta that is the fourth Arupajhanacitta is extremely quiet and calms to the best.So it might be confused with Nibbana.This view is totally wrong. KKT: But the 9th Jhana, the Cessation of Sensation and Perception, is considered as identical with Nibbana, is it not? Metta, KKT 19738 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/17/03 4:33:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > kammaja or kamma-samutthána ============================ Is there anything unusual about these terms? Neither could be found in the Pali Text Society's on-line dictionary. (They did appear in Nyanatiloka's dictionary.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19739 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Dear Howard, I am not sure about the Tipitaka but kammaja and samutthana are common terms in the Abhidhamma commentaries when they explain the different ways matter can arise. http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_6.htm Kammajam upádinnarúpam; itaram anupádinnarúpam. translation " Rupa caused by kamma is grasped at, other types are not grasped at" [So that sensitive matter that makes up our eyes, ears, etc., which are produced by kamma, is especially clung to. (Note that the commentaries also say that other matter is clung to but these kamma produced types are clung to more deeply)] For samutthana, e.g. : . Kammam, cittam, utu, áháro c'áti cattári rúpasamutthánáni náma. Translation: Material phenomena arise in four ways: kamma, citta, temperature, and food. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 2/17/03 4:33:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > kammaja or kamma-samutthána > ============================ > Is there anything unusual about these terms? Neither could be found in > the Pali Text Society's on-line dictionary. (They did appear in Nyanatiloka's > dictionary.) > 19740 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 5:14pm Subject: Way 52, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear Comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 65 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html If, when going to his alms collecting place, the bhikkhu's thought of meditation is contemplation on the Buddha's qualities [buddhanussati kammatthanam], he, on arriving at the relic-shrine, enters the shrine's precincts, without having put aside his thought of meditation on the Buddha. But should his thought of meditation be something other than the Buddha-subject, he having stood at the foot of the stairway leading to the shrine-terrace, put by his thought of meditation as if it were goods hand-carried, and acquired the joy begotten of the Buddha-subject of meditation, goes up the stairway. If the relic-shrine is a big one, it should be worshipped at four places, when the bhikkhu has gone round it three times to the right. If it is a small shrine, it should be worshipped by the meditator in eight places when he has gone round it three times to the right just as in the case of the big shrine. By a bhikkhu who, having worshipped a relic-shrine, has reached a Bodhi-tree shrine even the Bodhi-tree should be worshipped. And he should worship the Bodhi-tree showing meek demeanour as though he were in the very presence of the Buddha, the Bhagava. In this way, that monk, having worshipped relic-shrine and Bodhi-tree shrine, goes to the place where he had put by his first subject of meditation, namely, to the bottom of the stairway. There, having taken up the subject of meditation he had put by earlier, and robed himself (with the upper robe and the shoulder cloak held together and worn as one, that is, with the upper robe falling within the shoulder-cloak at all edges), near the village with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind, he enters the village for alms. Then, people, after seeing the bhikkhu, say: "Our venerable one has come," and having gone forward to meet the bhikkhu, taken his bowl, conducted him to the sitting-hall (hall where meals are served to the bhikkhus in a village) or to a house and made him take a seat, offer gruel to him. Thereafter, they wash and anoint his feet, and till rice is ready sit in front of him and ask him questions or become desirous of listening to a talk on the Dhamma from him. Even if the people do not ask him to speak to them on the Dhamma, the commentators say that a talk on the Dhamma should be given to the people in order to help them. The bhikkhus should expound the Dhamma for the purpose of assisting the folk with the grace of the Dhamma, thinking, "If I do not expound the Dhamma to them, who will?" There is no Dhamma-talk separate from the thought of meditation. [Tika] This is said to strengthen the dictum of the commentators mentioned above. Therefore, after expounding the Dhamma even with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind, after partaking of the food, with just the thought of meditation uppermost in mind he leaves the village followed by the people who in spite of his requesting them to stop accompanying him. Then, after turning back those who followed him, he takes the road to his dwelling-place. [T] "After expounding the Dhamma even with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind" = After expounding the Dhamma just in accordance with the character of the thought of meditation that is being attended to by oneself, by way of sticking to that thought. The method of exegesis is the same in regard to the next expression concerning food. After giving thanks. Here too the governing expression is: Even with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind. "Then, just at the place of departure from the village." The point at which the bhikkhu actually gets out of the village. Then, novices and young bhikkhus who had taken their meal outside the village, having left the village earlier than this bhikkhu see this bhikkhu coming. And they, after going forward to meet him, take his bowl and robe. It is said that bhikkhus of old did this duty without looking at the face of the returning bhikkhu and thinking: (this is) our preceptor (or) our teacher. In ancient times, they did this duty according to the arriving-limit (the arriving division, section, or company). As the elder bhikkhu came the younger ones performed this duty not looking to see who the elder was. Those novices and young bhikkhus question the elder thus: "Reverend Sir, who are these people to you? Are they relatives on the maternal side? Are they relatives on the paternal side?" -- "Having seen what, do you query?" -- "Their affection and respect for you." -- "Friends, what even parents find it hard to do these people do for us. Our very robes and bowls are just due to them. Owing to these people we know no fear on occasions of fear and know no lack of food on occasions of famine. There are no people so helpful to us as these folk." Speaking well of these people, thus, he goes. This bhikkhu is spoken of as a person who carries forth (takes along with him) the subject of meditation when he leaves his dwelling but does not return with the thought of meditation. 19741 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Connie and Howard, Here is the sutta Kalupahana referenced: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-020.html Below is the relevant section. I inserted the pali. The translation is slightly different: "Now what is dependent co-arising? From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands -- this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality [idappaccayataa]. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. "From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... "From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming... "From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance... "From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving... "From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling... "From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact... "From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media... "From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form... "From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness... "From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands -- this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. What's there in this way is a reality [TATHATAA], not an unreality [AVITATHATAA], not other than what it seems [ANA~N~NATHATAA], conditioned by this/that [IDAPPACCAYATAA]. This is called dependent co-arising." Larry ---------------------------------- Howard wrote: I realize that I didn't directly answer this question in my previous reply. What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the four main characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and as reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), necessity (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or interdependence (idappaccayata). It is a relation of the general form of dependent origination: When there is this, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. When this is not, neither is that. With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] Causality in this sense does not require some hidden "causal power", but only the objectivity, necessity, invariability, and conditionality of the relationship between the conditions and their result. With metta, Howard 19742 From: Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contradictory Statements Thanks, Robert! With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/18/03 8:03:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > I am not sure about the Tipitaka but > kammaja and samutthana are common terms in the Abhidhamma > commentaries when they explain the different ways matter can arise. > http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_6.htm > > Kammajam upádinnarúpam; itaram anupádinnarúpam. > translation " Rupa caused by kamma is grasped at, other types are not > grasped at" > [So that sensitive matter that makes up our eyes, ears, etc., which > are produced by kamma, is especially clung to. (Note that the > commentaries also say that other matter is clung to but these kamma > produced types are clung to more deeply)] > > For samutthana, e.g. : > . Kammam, cittam, utu, áháro c'áti cattári rúpasamutthánáni náma. > Translation: Material phenomena arise in four ways: > kamma, > citta, > temperature, and > food. > Robertk > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Robert - > > > >In a message dated 2/17/03 4:33:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@y... > >writes: > > > >>kammaja or kamma-samutthána > >============================ > > Is there anything unusual about these terms? Neither could > be found in > >the Pali Text Society's on-line dictionary. (They did appear in > Nyanatiloka's > >dictionary.) > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19743 From: robmoult Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 7:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > I understand what you are saying here, Rob. But let me point out > something: What is happening is that the kammic seed is "discharged" as a > result of the death occurring, but the death occurred because of the > explosion or rubble. > The seed didn't contribute to the death. There is no means for it to > have done so. It didn't "put" the victim at that particular place, at that > particular time, in order for the death to occur! The original kamma which > produced the "seed" had no effect on the death occurring - the actions > (kamma) of the Al Qaida hijackers took care of that! The cuti citta arose > because of life-terminating conditions. Are you proposing that the same > massive explosion or tons of rubble would have failed to produce death were > there no "seed" present? If so, I'd like to know how that would be so. [On > the other hand, if the whole kammic business amounted to 1) an original bad > deed (say killing) had been done, 2) a "seed" was produced as result, and 3) > when appropriate conditions occurred, the "seed" was released, then the kamma > had no effect on a conventional event - it merely produced something (the > "seed") which subsequently ceased, and it might as well be ignored.] > ----------------------------------------------------- ===== Howard, you make some excellent points that I need to think about for a bit. ===== > > > ===== > > > > Their seeds developed into vipaka (whatever happens to us is > > vipaka). That is all that seeds ever do. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Exactly what vipaka? What was the effect of the seed, and how was that > effect accomplished (by the *seed*, not by conditions that would have done > the same thing without any seed)? ===== Gotta think about this too. ===== > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > My Buddhist perspective is: > > 1. There is no "agenda"; simply laws of nature > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > If we are talking about "natural laws", we should know something about > the details of how they work. ===== We know the principles that they operate on, but not the details. ===== > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > 2. Beings such as ourselves, with lots of dust in our eyes, cannot > > understand the laws of nature, but the laws of nature can be > > comprehended (when we reach Buddhahood). > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yep. Leave it to God. (Rob, we can understand other laws of nature in > great detail. why can we not understand how a kammic seed is needed for the > death of one blown to pieces by a massive explosion?) ===== As I mentioned, I am thinking about this one :-) ===== > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > 3. It is a law of nature that when conditions are met, a seed can > > develop. The development of a seed is not the "will of God", it is > > not the "will of the seed" and it is not the "will of the > > conditions"; it is simply a law of nature. > > 4. Outcomes (our current situation) is vipaka > > > > It is through conditions that the links of Dependent Origination are > > connected, not through cause-effect relationships. As an example, > > let's take the first link, "Through ignorance are conditioned the > > karma-formations" (WARNING, I AM ABOUT TO GET TECHNICAL): > > > > Ignorance is moha in the 12 akusala cittas. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I thought it was ignorance of the four noble truths and of the > tilakkhana. > ---------------------------------------------------- ===== You are correct; that is a definition of moha in general. When talking about dependent origination, I tend to automatically insert a definition of the link, because it is not always obvious. For example, though "feeling" arises in every citta, when "feeling" is discussed in the context of dependent origination, we are only talking about the vedana cetasika in vipaka cittas. ===== > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand the difference between conditionality and causality as a > substantial "force". Let me repeat here what I wrote to Connie: > *************************************** > What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the four main > characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and as > reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), necessity > (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or > interdependence (idappaccayata). It is a relation of the general form of > dependent origination: > > When there is this, that is. > With the arising of this, that arises. > When this is not, neither is that. > With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] > > Causality in this sense does not require some hidden "causal power", > but only the objectivity, necessity, invariability, and conditionality of the > > relationship between the conditions and their result. > ******************************************* ===== I am learning here! Thanks. ===== > > > > Howard, I think that I can I summarize our difference of opinion as > > follows: > > - Howard wants to take a cause-effect approach to understanding > > kamma > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > True, if one understands "cause-effect" in the correct sense. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > - Howard feels that a conditions approach to kamma may be > > technically accurate, but is of limited value > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not true. I consider the "conditions approach" to kamma- vipaka (as you > have described it) as one which makes the kamma-vipaka relation entirely > worthless and of no interest or relevance! ;-)) > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > - Rob wants to take a conditions approach to understanding kamma > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > - Rob feels that a cause-effect approach to kamma may be > > technically accurate, but is of limited value > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, there is some nice symmetry here! ;-)) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is one final point I'd like to make, Rob. The Buddha stated > clearly and repeatedly that not all that happens to one is due to one's own > kamma. He specifically gave *assault by others* as one alternative. That fits > the situation we are discussing quite well. Why is this being ignored? Was > the Buddha wrong? ===== Thanks for the reminder. I had interpreted this "not everything is due to one's own kamma" as saying that in addition to kamma-niyama, what happens to us can be as a result of utu-niyama or dhamma- niyama. In other words, the reason that it rained on my birthday has nothing to do with my kamma, it was utu-niyama. Perhaps this is the answer to the "fire and rubble" question above. The body was damaged because of dhamma-niyama, the damaged body is unable to support the mind due to dhamma-niyama and this is the condition for the death. Anything that enters though one of the five sense doors (but not ideas entering through the mind-door) must be a result of kamma (vipaka cittas at work in the sense-door citta process). However, not everything happening to us enters though one of the five sense doors. I would like to study this further. Do you have any sutta references (or references in other texts) which talk about "not everything is due to one's own kamma", especially referencing "assault by others". Metta, Rob M :-) 19744 From: connie Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:06pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hey, Howard ~ Kalupahana says Buddha rejected my idea that "past and the future exist in the present or even the view that a thing exists during the past, the present, and the future as the results of unwarranted interpretation of linguistic usage." His article on 'The Buddhist conception of time and temporality' ends: "Summing up the whole discussion, I may say that (1) early Buddhism presented an empiricist and relativistic conception of time; (2) the Abhidharma scholasticism produced an absolutistic conception mainly because of its speculative approach, and (3) the Maadhyamikas, as a result of their transcendentalism, denied the reality of time." peace, connie 19745 From: robmoult Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:26pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Connie, Mind if I intrude here? It appears as we have Howard as a common friend. In "Dhamma Theory Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma" http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm Y. Karunadasa's made the following comment: Another doctrinal controversy that has left its mark on the Theravada version of the dhamma theory is the one concerning the theory of tri-temporal existence (sarvamastivada). What is revolutionary about this theory, advanced by the Sarvastivadins, is that it introduced a metaphysical dimension to the doctrine of dhammas and thus paved the way for the erosion of its empirical foundation. For this theory makes an empirically unverifiable distinction between the actual being of the dhammas as phenomena and their ideal being as noumena. It assumes that the substances of all dhammas persist in all the three divisions of time -- past, present, and future -- while their manifestations as phenomena are impermanent and subject to change. Accordingly, a dhamma actualizes itself only in the present moment of time, but "in essence" it continues to subsist in all the three temporal periods. As is well known, this resulted in the transformation of the dhamma theory into a svabhavavada, "the doctrine of own-nature." It also paved the way for a veiled recognition, if not for a categorical assumption, of the distinction between substance and quality. What interests us here is the fact that although the Theravadins rejected this metaphysical theory of tri-temporal existence, including its qualified version as accepted by the Kasyapiyas, it was not without its influence on the Theravada version of the dhamma theory. Nyanaponika also has an interesting essay on "The Problem of Time" in his "Abhidhamma Studies". Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hey, Howard ~ > Kalupahana says Buddha rejected my idea that "past and the future exist > in the present or even the view that a thing exists during the past, the > present, and the future as the results of unwarranted interpretation of > linguistic usage." His article on 'The Buddhist conception of time and > temporality' ends: "Summing up the whole discussion, I may say that > (1) early Buddhism presented an empiricist and relativistic conception > of time; (2) the Abhidharma scholasticism produced an absolutistic > conception mainly because of its speculative approach, and (3) the > Maadhyamikas, as a result of their transcendentalism, denied the reality > of time." > peace, > connie 19746 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:31pm Subject: A Book to everyone>> Dear everyone, I am Kiana. During these holidays I read a book about Buddha. It is "Ten Lifes of the Buddha". I really want to introduce these book to all of you. Because it is very meaningful, and it is written two thousand years ago! There can be many things changed in between two thousand years, but one thing won't change for a really long time is - human nature and the good & bad qualities of humans. In that book, there are many stories, the one that I like the most is "Mahajanaka the Lost Prince". It is about the king who died and the elder prince will be the king but he was jealous of his brother's popularity and tried to kill him. This is human nature. Even nowadays, there are many people jobless and they are fighting for one job, trying to kick the other out and job on his own. I think nothing will be more horrible than human nature. There are more stories and pictures in this book. I think you will enjoy it when you are reading this book. Love, Kiana 19747 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:35pm Subject: I want to learn more about the eight fold path Dear James, Thank you for you letter and for your story that you wrote about how you got into Buddhism. Well, I'm not a Christian and I'm Buddhist. Did I tell you that I'm Thai? If not then there you are! Where in America are you from? I'm sorry to hear about your brother and sister, I think that your brother was on drugs because of his friends. Did your friends ever tell you to try illegal drugging? How old were your siblings when they past away? When I was younger, I wanted to be a Christian because all my friends were (peer pressure) but later on, I realized that just because all my friends were Christian doesn't mean that I should be Christian too. There is just one problem which is that I think my family is too religious....but I think being Buddhist is kind of cool. Do you know about the eight fold path? I had to learn a bit about it last year and I thought it was pretty interesting becasue in the eight fold path it shows the different truths about being alive. Can you tell me a bit more because I don't think I got enough infomation. Thx ;) BYE! From Jan Tanyatip Cheravanont 19748 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Swee Boon, I’m enjoying reading all the other discussions on this thread, how about you? --- "nidive " wrote: > Kamma is hard to understand. When I say "Just this is existence. > There is no self to be found.", I am NOT saying it from an > intellectual point of understanding. And I don't intend to clarify, > because I am unable to clarify it any further by way of words. ..... Ok, no problem. We certainly agree on the “no self to be found” and the importance of kamma condition. ..... > > But I just want to reproduce a sutta quote which James had brought > up before. > > 7. "'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is > the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; kamma is my refuge. Whatever kamma > I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' This must be > reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 > > Please reflect, when the Buddha says "Of kamma I am constituted.", ..... Ok, I’m reflecting. This is from the Dasadhamma Sutta, AN bk of 10s (A.v.87) PTS translation gives for these same lines: “I am responsible for my deed (kammassako’mhi), I am the heir to my deed, the womb of my deed, the kinsman of my deed, I am he to whom my deed comes home(kamma-pa.tisara.no).” We can also read similar or same(?) expressions in MN135 (M.203): “..beings are owners of their actions, heirs of their actions; they originate from their actions, are bound to their actions, have their actions as their refuge. It is action that distinguishes as inferior and superior.” In this sutta just as in the commentary about Maha Moggallana, we read in more detail about the effects of kamma. The first example is about the person who kills living beings and is murderous. After death, there is rebirth in ‘an unhappy destination’ such as a hell-plane. If by chance, rebirth is again as a human, life will be short-lived. The reverse applies in each example. For the reverse of this first example, for the one who is gentle and kindly and avoids harm, rebirth is in a heavenly plane or if it is again as a human, life will be long-lived. In other words, we’re reading about the development of wholesome states, avoidance of evil and the results of kusala and akusala kamma patha. ..... > is there an entity called "I"? If there isn't an entity called "I", > then what is that ? How is that different from kamma? ..... The “I” and “people” and so on are of course conventional designations for the stream of namas and rupas - the 3 rounds we’ve discussed recently of kamma vatta, vipaka vatta and kilesa vatta. ..... > Kamma is indeed one reality and one condition amongst many. > Nevertheless, it is the chief reality and chief condition that ties > us to samsara; it itself is samsara. The Buddha singled it out as > one of the ten essentials to be reflected upon again and again by > one who has gone forth. ..... I agree that it’s a very important condition as stressed in this sutta and in the Dasadhamma Sutta (Discourse on the Ten Dhammas or Conditions as it is called in PTS version) Is it the chief condition that ties us to samsara? Perhaps I would suggest the first of the 24 paccaya (root condition) is the chief condition - i.e lobha and moha in particular being the ties. The six roots of lobha, dosa, moha and then alobha, adosa and amoha or panna are referred to as the roots for wholesome and unwholesome consciousness. No kamma can be instigated without roots.They condition the cittas, other mental factors and also associated rupas by being roots. Interesting considerations. ..... > May you reflect well upon kamma again and again. ..... Thanks, Swee Boon. I agree it’s very useful and very deep as Rob M is stressing too. Always glad to hear your ideas. Metta, Sarah ======= 19749 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 2/18/03 10:59:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > I would like to study this further. Do you have any sutta references > (or references in other texts) which talk about "not everything is > due to one's own kamma", especially referencing "assault by others". > > ============================ My mind is like a sieve when it comes to remembering sutta references - I'm sorry. But I do recall that at least one such sutta was quoted on DSG. Perhaps someone else will come up with a reference. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19750 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Connie - In a message dated 2/19/03 1:13:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@h... writes: > Hey, Howard ~ > Kalupahana says Buddha rejected my idea that "past and the future exist > in the present or even the view that a thing exists during the past, the > present, and the future as the results of unwarranted interpretation of > linguistic usage." His article on 'The Buddhist conception of time and > temporality' ends: "Summing up the whole discussion, I may say that > (1) early Buddhism presented an empiricist and relativistic conception > of time; (2) the Abhidharma scholasticism produced an absolutistic > conception mainly because of its speculative approach, and (3) the > Maadhyamikas, as a result of their transcendentalism, denied the reality > of time." > peace, > connie > =========================== Thanks! Where is this article available? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) Weight Age Gender Female Male 19751 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Rob (and Connie) - In a message dated 2/19/03 1:33:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Connie, > > Mind if I intrude here? It appears as we have Howard as a common > friend. > > In "Dhamma Theory Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma" > http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm > Y. Karunadasa's made the following comment: > > Another doctrinal controversy that has left its mark on the > Theravada version of the dhamma theory is the one concerning the > theory of tri-temporal existence (sarvamastivada). What is > revolutionary about this theory, advanced by the Sarvastivadins, is > that it introduced a metaphysical dimension to the doctrine of > dhammas and thus paved the way for the erosion of its empirical > foundation. For this theory makes an empirically unverifiable > distinction between the actual being of the dhammas as phenomena and > their ideal being as noumena. It assumes that the substances of all > dhammas persist in all the three divisions of time -- past, present, > and future -- while their manifestations as phenomena are > impermanent and subject to change. Accordingly, a dhamma actualizes > itself only in the present moment of time, but "in essence" it > continues to subsist in all the three temporal periods. As is well > known, this resulted in the transformation of the dhamma theory into > a svabhavavada, "the doctrine of own-nature." It also paved the way > for a veiled recognition, if not for a categorical assumption, of > the distinction between substance and quality. What interests us > here is the fact that although the Theravadins rejected this > metaphysical theory of tri-temporal existence, including its > qualified version as accepted by the Kasyapiyas, it was not without > its influence on the Theravada version of the dhamma theory. > > > > Nyanaponika also has an interesting essay on "The Problem of Time" > in his "Abhidhamma Studies". > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ================================= Thanks for this, Rob. Yes, this "existing throughout time" is characteristic of the Sarvastivadins, and it is clearly substantialist and eternalist. In fact, this is one of the reasons Mahayana schools consider it hinayanist, though some Mahayana schools also ignorantly include Theravada under that pejorative. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19752 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:11am Subject: Discussion on Satipatthana at the Foundation week 5 no 2 (13:00min) K Busabongrampai (Q): Continuation of my question from last week, there are 8 maggas arising with lokuttara citta (during the Enlightment) and only 5 or 6 magga when satipatthana arises. My question is "how many path factors that are arising with vipassana ~na~na?" A Sujin: Is vipassana ~na~na a magga citta, supermundane conciousness? K Busabongrampai: No, it's not a magga citta. A Sujin: So how many magga factors? K Busabongrampai: Is it five? A Sujin: Is there a need to know how many magga factors at the vipassana ~na~na moment? At the moment of vipassana ~na~na or even of satipatthana, it is beyond the theory. What matters is now, but we almost always overlook [the characteristic of dhamma at] this moment. When satisa.mpajjhanna arises, do we need to know how many cetasikas co-arising? K Busabongrampai: No, not at all. A Sujin: So long as it is not magga citta, all three virati cannot arise at the same time. Only pa~n~na can tell. Often when we study dhamma, we are caught in detail of the interesting theory. But we also need to consider if we can understand [realize, know, experience] as described. Those we don't know and have some doubts now will be apparent when we experience the characteristics of sabhava dhamma. Until that happens, we are bound to doubts and to be caught in the detail of the concept [as in theory] of dhamma which is not the direct experience of characteristics of dhamma. K Busabongrampai: So I think the answer to my question should be only five path factors because of the absence of the three virati cetasikas. A Sujin: We can always continue to think, to ponder and discuss about it. The question is for understaning the realities, what must coarise [with citta]? And what level of pa~n~na can tell [what coarising with that particular vipassana ~na~na]? K Busabongrampai: A moment ago K Sunan asked about anatta-ness. For us to whom satipatthana begin to arise, the pa~na~na is too weak to understand the nature of non-self. But the moment after satipatthana, it seems that we can retionalize that it [dhamma] is anatta more easily. K Busabongrampi: A question about anatta, at the very beginning when satipatthana just begins to arise, the anatta-ness perhaps has not arisen. Can the subsequent thoughts contemplate and retional the anatta-ness and the dhamma may appear as anatta more clearly than usual? A Sujin: It is impossible to think and have the same understanding as the arising of vipassana ~na~na that penetrates the characteristics of dhamma. K Ratchada (Q): Regarding the understanding of the distinction (demarkation) of nama and rupa [nama-rupapariccheda~na~na], at the time of sati being aware of, say, nama, is this already considered distinction? Or does pa~n~na have to be able to tell the attributes of nama from that of rupa? A Sujin: It's not the name that can tells. A skillful person is steadfast of being honest to know whether or not at this moment of, say, seeing, he is able to experience realities as they are. At the moment of seeing, there are both seeing and what is being seen, ... and both now quickly have fallen away. Similarly, at the moment of hearing, there is hearing and what is being heard. If we are to experience the realities, we will experience the characteristics of hearing that it is the element that ``knows'' an object and what is heard as the element that is being experienced. All of these happen in daily, ordinary life. However, for beginners the arising of sati may be very far apart. For example, sati may arise at certain moments of hearing but not seeing. Between the moments of satipatthana, there is thinking. Although thinking always arises after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching, we hardly know the quality of thinking. If vipassana ~na~na is to arise now to penetrate the characteristics of dhamma, it will understand the quality of dhamma as usual only more profoundly with finer detail. Vipassana ~na~na understand the characteristics of thinking that it is different from seeing, hearing etc. What it means by demarkation (distinction) of nama and rupa is that no matter what the dhamma is, it is always an element. Nama element always appear as mentality and never as materiality, penetrates the nama dhamma in the nama-rupa pariccheda ~na~na it cannot (does not) avoid experiencing the object at that moment without discrimination. At that moment, through the mind-door pa~n~na understands clearly the nature of mentality and materiality. Even for thinking (contemplating), vipassana~na~na can arise to be aware of it and panna can study its characteristics. At the moment of thinking, it is a natural phenomenon; thinking is an element, not self, knowing an object. When vipassana~na~na falls away, that person knows that thinking cannot be controlled because the understanding prior to the arising of nama-rupaparicchada~na~na and after it are different. Furthermore, pa~na~na at the level of vipassana nana cannot choose to experience an element, but it arise due to conditions. 19:15min 19753 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:28am Subject: Re: "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Sarah, > I'm enjoying reading all the other discussions on this thread, > how about you? I am enjoying them too. > Is it the chief condition that ties us to samsara? Perhaps I would suggest > the first of the 24 paccaya (root condition) is the chief condition - i.e > lobha and moha in particular being the ties. The six roots of lobha, dosa, > moha and then alobha, adosa and amoha or panna are referred to as the > roots for wholesome and unwholesome consciousness. No kamma can be > instigated without roots.They condition the cittas, other mental factors > and also associated rupas by being roots. Interesting considerations. I am not going to disagree with you if you see it this way. But just a comment here: The Buddha though having eradicated the roots of attachment, aversion and ignorance, yet: Is cetana by way of conascent kamma-condition present in the Buddha? IMHO, I think the answer is yes. Is cetana by way of asynchronous kamma-condition present in the Buddha? IMHO, I think the answer is no. Is vipaka by way of asynchronous kamma-condition present in the Buddha? IMHO, I think the answer is yes. In this way, I see kamma being the chief reality and chief condition that ties us to samsara. For even the Buddha Gotama while alive was still bound to this samsaric existence for the last time. Buddha Gotama was still kamma though the three unwholesome roots were eradicated. But Sarah, I am not sure if the three wholesome roots are eradicated by an arahant. I don't think so, but perhaps you can elaborate/clarify here. By kamma the world moves, By kamma men (& women) live, And by kamma are all beings bound, As by its pin the rolling chariot wheels. http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid3.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19754 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Co. Dear Nina, Thank you for posting the references. I am still mulling over this issue. For now my interpretation is: (1) insight preceded by tranquility -develops the jhanas and then contemplates with insight the five aggregates associated with those jhanas; -achieves tranquility through access/jhanic concentration; (2) tranquility preceded by insight -develops insight into the five aggregates in dissociation with the jhanas (since jhanas are not developed); -achieves tranquility through momentary concentration equal to that of access concentration; (3) insight and tranquility in tandem -develops the jhanas but develops insight into the five aggregates in dissociation with the jhanas; -achieves tranquility through access/jhanic concentration; (4) restlessness concerning the Dhamma well under control -develops insight into the mental defilements and restraints them through painful habitual restraint; -develops insight further when mental defilements have been suppressed successfully; -achieves tranquility through constant suppression of the mental defilements, namely the five hindrances. Two/Three days ago, I read in Abhidhamma.ORG: ------------------------------------------------------- If Sariputta was notable for his lasting sense of gratitude, he was no less so for his capacity for friendship. With Maha Moggallana, the friend and companion of his youth, he maintained a close intimacy, and many were the conversations they held on the Dhamma. One of these, which is of special interest as throwing light on the process of Venerable Sariputta's attainment, is recorded in the Anguttara Nikaya, Catukka-nipata, No. 167. It relates that once the Venerable Maha Moggallana went to see the Elder and said to him: "There are four ways of progress, brother Sariputta: difficult progress, with sluggish direct-knowledge; difficult progress, with swift direct-knowledge; easy progress, with sluggish direct-knowledge; easy progress, with direct-knowledge. "By which of these four ways of progress, brother, was your mind freed from the cankers without remnants of clinging?" To which the Venerable Sariputta replied: "By that of those four ways of progress, brother, which is easy and has swift direct-knowledge." The explanation of this passage is that if the suppression of the defilements preparatory to absorption or insight takes place without great difficulty, progress is called "easy" (sukha-patipada); in the reverse case it is "difficult" or "painful" (dukkha-patipada). If, after the suppression of the defilements, the manifestation of the Path, the goal of insight, is quickly effected, the direct-knowledge (connected with the Path) is called "swift" (khippabhiñña); in the reverse case it is "sluggish" (dandabhiñña). In this discourse the Venerable Sariputta's statement refers to his attainment of Arahantship. His attainment of the first three Paths, however, was, according to the commentary to the above text, connected with "easy progress and sluggish direct-knowledge." http://www.abhidhamma.org/life_of_sariputta.htm ------------------------------------------------------- I think the fourth (4) type of practitioner is a practitioner whose progress is "difficult". "Difficult" because the suppression of the mental defilements preparatory to the Magga-Citta is produced through constant, forceful, habitual and painful restraint. In contrast, the (1), (2) and (3) type of practitioners are practitioners whose progress is "easy". "Easy" because the suppression of the mental defilements preparatory to the Magga-Citta is produced through right concentration practice. The purpose of practising jhanas is not to produce the jhanas. But rather, it is to make "easy" the suppression of the mental defilements prior to the Magga-Citta during the Lokuttara Process. Therefore, momentary concentration of strength equal to that of access concentration is still needed for the pure insight practitioner who is without forceful restraint of the mental defilements. It is interesting to note the "similarity" between the jhana and lokuttara process. Jhana Process (First Jhana for the First Time): 1. moment of bhavanga 2. moment of vibration 3. moment of cutting-off 4. moment of mental advertance to counterpart sign through mind-door 5. moment of preliminary work (parikamma) 6. moment of access (upacara) 7. moment of conformity (anuloma) 8. moment of change-of-lineage 9. moment of jhana 10. moment of bhavanga (repeated) Lokuttara Process 1. moment of bhavanga 2. moment of vibration 3. moment of cutting-off 4. moment of mental advertance to formations as impermanent, suffering or selfless through mind-door 5. moment of preliminary work (parikamma) 6. moment of access (upacara) 7. moment of conformity (anuloma) 8. moment of change-of-lineage (gotrabhu) 9. moment of magga 10. moment of phala (repeated 2 or 3 times) 11. moment of bhavanga (repeated) The moment of access (upacara) in the Jhana Process suppresses the five hindrances (mental defilements). Even so, the moment of access (upacara) in the Lokuttara Process must also suppress the five hindrances (mental defilements). And this suppression cannot happen without us practising concentration to the level where these mental defilements can be suppressed easily. Even if panna has reached the level where it can issue in the Lokuttara Process, yet in one who has no concentration that can suppress the mental defilements effectively just for those few moments, Magga can never arise. The arising of Magga depends on the effective suppression of the mental defilements at those critical moments. Panna is not enough. There's no supramundane concentration for one with no mundane insight. And there's no supramundance insight for one with no mundane concentration. But one with both mundane concentration and mundane insight, he/she is on the verge of Unbinding. Just my thoughts. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19755 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:38am Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard, > The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma > and corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a > subsequent event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or > aspects of it, vipaka of that kamma. I hope this clarifies what > I've been writing about. How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not burnt to death another person with flammable materials in one of their past lives? How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not buried to death another person with soil, mud, clay, bricks, etc. in one of their past lives? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19756 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: new member Hi, Theresa ~ Amara is far too modest sometimes. Please take a look at her website: www.dhammastudy.com . welcome, connie 19757 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 0:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight. Co. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " <> (2) tranquility preceded by insight > -develops insight into the five aggregates in dissociation with the > jhanas (since jhanas are not developed); > -achieves tranquility through momentary concentration > equal to that of access concentration; > >> In contrast, the (1), (2) and (3) type of practitioners are > practitioners whose progress is "easy". "Easy" because the > suppression of the mental defilements preparatory to the Magga- Citta > is produced through right concentration practice. > > The purpose of practising jhanas is not to produce the jhanas. But > rather, it is to make "easy" the suppression of the mental > defilements prior to the Magga-Citta during the Lokuttara Process. > > Therefore, momentary concentration of strength equal to that of > access concentration is still needed for the pure insight > practitioner who is without forceful restraint of the mental > defilements. > _____________________________ Dear Swee boon, What do you understand by momentary concentration (khaninka samadhi); in theory , practice and daily life? RobertK 19758 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:38 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment > Hi Howard, > > > The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma > > and corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a > > subsequent event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or > > aspects of it, vipaka of that kamma. I hope this clarifies what > > I've been writing about. > > How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not burnt to death > another person with flammable materials in one of their past lives? > > How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not buried to death > another person with soil, mud, clay, bricks, etc. in one of their > past lives? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > > Hi Swee Boon, Howard... Swee Boon, of course who can be sure of anything LOL...but here is what you are suggesting....Somehow in the first tower all those who had put another person to death by fire where in the 20th floor and above. I think almost all of the fire deaths were above where the planes crashed into the buildings. Now in the second building there were more of those who had burned alive others in past lives so the plane had to strike at the 18th floor. Of course this assumes that folks worked on the higher floors, primarily because they had burned to death another person in a past life. Now as I said, it is very difficult maybe even impossible to be sure of anything as complicated as kamma, or as simple as why I like ice cream for that matter LOL, but I think it is fair to say that I am very, very sure that people did not organize themselves within the twin towers based on wither or not they had either burned to death or buried to death someone in a past life....Ray 19759 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- Dear Ray, Are you suggesting that when people die in floods, or by terrorist acts, plane crashes etc. or that when others become suddenly rich, live long lives etc. that these were fortuitos events and not due to the workings of kamma? Is this moment of seeing now conditioned by past kamma? robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > > > Hi Swee Boon, Howard... > > Swee Boon, of course who can be sure of anything LOL...but here is what > you are suggesting....Somehow in the first tower all those who had put > another person to death by fire where in the 20th floor and above. I think > almost all of the fire deaths were above where the planes crashed into the > buildings. Now in the second building there were more of those who had > burned alive others in past lives so the plane had to strike at the 18th > floor. Of course this assumes that folks worked on the higher floors, > primarily because they had burned to death another person in a past life. > Now as I said, it is very difficult maybe even impossible to be sure of > anything as complicated as kamma, or as simple as why I like ice cream for > that matter LOL, but I think it is fair to say that I am very, very sure > that people did not organize themselves within the twin towers based on > wither or not they had either burned to death or buried to death someone in > a past life....Ray 19760 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 1:11 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment > --- > Dear Ray, > Are you suggesting that when people die in floods, or by terrorist > acts, plane crashes etc. or that when others become suddenly rich, > live long lives etc. that these were fortuitos events and not due to > the workings of kamma? > Is this moment of seeing now conditioned by past kamma? > robertk Hi Robertk, what I am suggesting is that sometimes accidents are just that accidents. Clearly the canon states that many circumstances we find ourselves in are in fact due to the workings of kamma, but I think it also states that the arising of such circumstances are not only due to kamma. The location specific method of death within the twin towers seems to bear this our IMO. Yes I agree that this moment of seeing now is conditioned by past kamma...Ray 19761 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:45pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Thank you for the sutta reference and Pali, Larry. Much appreciated. Rob M and Howard, Thank you both for letting me swim around with my foot in mouth and being gracious about it. Didn't mean to drag you off in another direction... just happened to be reading the 9-11 posts in the archives when these other 2 threads came up. Kalupahana on: "The Buddhist conception of time and temporality" http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa.htm "The Buddhist conceptions of subject and object and their moral implications" http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa1.htm "Causality: The Central Philosophy of Buddhism" http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/david6.htm These are all found on the http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/cf_eng.htm page. peace, connie 19762 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:37pm Subject: Cognitive Neuroscience and Abhidhamma Hi All, I was preparing for my weekly Abhidhamma class and once of my web searches led me to a synopsis of an article, "On the stages of perception: towards a synthesis of cognitive neuroscience and the Buddhist Abhidhamma tradition" that was published in "Journal of Consciousness Studies" Vol 4, No 2 in 1997. I sent an email to the author, Brian L. Lancaster at Liverpool John Moores University, asking his for the full paper and he responded immediately with a copy (1.3Meg). The reply also said: "We're just launching an online version of our MSc in Consciousness & transpersonal Psychology. You, or others you have contact with, may be interested. So please spread the word. Check it out at http://cwis.livjm.ac.uk/ctp/ctpdistance/welcome.html (NB the link to the application form is not yet set up)." Some of you might be interested in this. If you would like a copy of the paper emailed to you, please send me an email at rob.moult@j... and I will forward it. Metta, Rob M :-) 19763 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:54pm Subject: Re: new member Sorry, posted to wrong group. peace, connie 19764 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:10pm Subject: Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- Dear Connie, Could you say what you like about these articles. Maybe quote some passages. thanks robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Thank you for the sutta reference and Pali, Larry. Much appreciated. > > Rob M and Howard, > Thank you both for letting me swim around with my foot in mouth and > being gracious about it. Didn't mean to drag you off in another > direction... just happened to be reading the 9-11 posts in the archives > when these other 2 threads came up. > > Kalupahana on: > "The Buddhist conception of time and temporality" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa.htm > > "The Buddhist conceptions of subject and object and their moral > implications" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa1.htm > > "Causality: The Central Philosophy of Buddhism" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/david6.htm > > These are all found on the http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/cf_eng.htm > page. > > peace, > connie 19765 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/19/2003 12:38:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > > The point is that there must be a causal connection between kamma > > and corresponding vipaka. When that is lacking between kamma and a > > subsequent event, it is inappropriate to call the event, or > > aspects of it, vipaka of that kamma. I hope this clarifies what > > I've been writing about. > > How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not burnt to death > another person with flammable materials in one of their past lives? > > How are you sure that the victims of 911 had not buried to death > another person with soil, mud, clay, bricks, etc. in one of > their > past lives? -------------------------------- Howard: I'm not at all sure that they had not. My point is: By what means, did such a prior deed result in the 9-11 event? Or, to look at it another way: How did the prior bad deeds put them where they were on 9-11 so that they would fall victim to the attack? Did the kamma seeds know about the upcoming attack!? ;-) -------------------------------- > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon =============================== With metta, Howard 19766 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Ray (and Robert) - In a message dated 2/19/2003 4:23:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, rhendrickson1@e... writes: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 1:11 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment > > > > --- > > Dear Ray, > > Are you suggesting that when people die in floods, or by terrorist > > acts, plane crashes etc. or that when others become suddenly rich, > > live long lives etc. that these were fortuitos events and not due to > > the workings of kamma? > > Is this moment of seeing now conditioned by past kamma? > > robertk > > Hi Robertk, what I am suggesting is that sometimes accidents are just that > accidents. Clearly the canon states that many circumstances we find > ourselves in are in fact due to the workings of kamma, but I think it also > states that the arising of such circumstances are not only due to kamma. > The location specific method of death within the twin towers seems to bear > this our IMO. Yes I agree that this moment of seeing now > is conditioned by > past kamma...Ray ============================== Yes, I would agree with that as well - I would not be seeing what I am curently seeing had I not, for example, been born into this realm (due to prior kusala kamma). I would not be seeing the monitor screen had I not sat down in front of it, and the people who died in the towers on 9-11 wouldn't have had they not gone there that day. The kamma leading to being born here, the sitting down, and the going to work were all volitional actions, and they were conditions for subsequent experiences. That's all. Nothing mysterious. With metta, Howard 19767 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Connie - In a message dated 2/19/2003 4:45:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@h... writes: > > Thank you for the sutta reference and Pali, Larry. Much appreciated. > > Rob M and Howard, > Thank you both for letting me swim around with my foot in mouth and > being gracious about it. Didn't mean to drag you off in another > direction... just happened to be reading the 9-11 posts in the archives > when these other 2 threads came up. > > Kalupahana on: > "The Buddhist conception of time and temporality" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa.htm > > "The Buddhist conceptions of subject and object and their moral > implications" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/kalupa1.htm > > "Causality: The Central Philosophy of Buddhism" > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/david6.htm > > These are all found on the > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/cf_eng.htm > page. > > peace, > connie ======================== Thanks very much for the links! With metta, Howard 19768 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ray (and Robert) - > > > > > Hi Robertk, what I am suggesting is that sometimes accidents are just that > > accidents. Clearly the canon states that many circumstances we find > > ourselves in are in fact due to the workings of kamma, but I think it also > > states that the arising of such circumstances are not only due to kamma. > > The location specific method of death within the twin towers seems to bear > > this our IMO. Yes I agree that this moment of seeing now > > is conditioned by > > past kamma...Ray > ============================== > Yes, I would agree with that as well - I would not be seeing what I am curently seeing had I not, for example, been born into this realm (due to prior kusala kamma). I would not be seeing the monitor screen had I not sat down in front of it, and the people who died in the towers on 9-11 wouldn't have had they not gone there that day. The kamma leading to being born here, the sitting down, and the going to work were all volitional actions, and they were conditions for subsequent experiences. That's all. Nothing mysterious. > _________ Dear Ray Before I reply to this could you confirm that you have the same understanding as Howard writes above? Robertk 19769 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment > > ============================== > > Yes, I would agree with that as well - I would not be seeing > what I am curently seeing had I not, for example, been born into this > realm (due to prior kusala kamma). I would not be seeing the monitor > screen had I not sat down in front of it, and the people who died in > the towers on 9-11 wouldn't have had they not gone there that day. > The kamma leading to being born here, the sitting down, and the going > to work were all volitional actions, and they were conditions for > subsequent experiences. That's all. Nothing mysterious. > > _________ > Dear Ray > Before I reply to this could you confirm that you have the same > understanding as Howard writes above? > Robertk > Hi Howard and Robert, Yes Robert, my understanding is the same as Howard expresses above. Looking forward to reading your response...Ray 19770 From: smallchap Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: awareness and concepts Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > S: In this case, is it correct to say that one cannot attain > udayabbayaanupassanaa-~naa.na (arising and falling away of dhammas) before > one attains Nama-rupa-pariccheda-~naa.na, Paccaya-pariggaha- ~naa.na, and > sammassana~naa.na? > N: That is correct. S: Thnak you for the clarification. I appreciate it very much. >N: What falls away? One nama or one rupa at a time can be > realized as impermament. Citta with panna can know only one object at a > time, either a nama or a rupa. We see in all the suttas: six doorways are > explained all the time, as being separate. > At each following stage of insight there is a little more detachment from > the idea of person. Detachment is needed to be aware of what naturally > arises. I was reminded in Bgk: if we think, O no, not this object, there can > already be wrong practice, silabbata paramasa. > May we all help each other to walk the right Path, S: Thank you for the reminder once more. With sammadhi as the supporting factor to cause the mind to be aleart yet passive, and with an equanimous attitude, one should be able to walk away from the pitfalls. One question here. What do you mean by silabbata paramasa? I am sure here it does not mean attachment to rules and rituals. One more question. It is said that at the stage of sankhaarupekkhaa- ~naa.na, one is able to 'see' nama and rupa as two separate entiies. How does one 'see' these two as separate entities? I mean, is nama clearly 'see' itself separated from rupa? smallchap 19771 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- Dear Ray and Howard, Thanks for explaining your views on kamma. Just to make sure I understand you I quote a little from the Dhammapada atthakattha below. I think you agree that it is standard Theravada teaching, and then does it fit with your comments? http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm#threegroupsof A group of bhikkhus were on their way to pay homage to the Buddha and they stopped at a village on the way. Some people were cooking alms- food for those bhikkhus when one of the houses caught fire and a ring of fire flew up into the air. At that moment, a crow came flying, got caught in the ring of fire and dropped dead in the central part of the village. The bhikkhus seeing the dead crow observed that only the Buddha would be able to explain for what evil deed this crow had to die in this manner. After taking alms-food they continued on their journey to pay homage to the Buddha, and also to ask about the unfortunate crow. The Buddha answer to the first group: "Bhikkhus, once there was a farmer who had an ox. The ox was very lazy and also very stubborn. It could not be coaxed to do any work; it would lie down chewing the cud or else go to sleep. The farmer lost his temper many times on account of this lazy, stubborn animal; so in anger he tied a straw rope round the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. On account of this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya. and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been burnt to death in the last seven existences." Then, a bhikkhu remarked, "O indeed! There is no escape from evil consequences for one who has done evil, even if he were in the sky, or in the ocean, or in a cave." To him, the Buddha said, "Yes, Bhikkhu! You are right; even in the sky or anywhere else, there is no place which is beyond the reach of evil consequences." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one may escape from the consequences of an evil deed. At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti Fruition. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > > > ============================== > > > Yes, I would agree with that as well - I would not be seeing > > what I am curently seeing had I not, for example, been born into this > > realm (due to prior kusala kamma). I would not be seeing the monitor > > screen had I not sat down in front of it, and the people who died in > > the towers on 9-11 wouldn't have had they not gone there that day. > > The kamma leading to being born here, the sitting down, and the going > > to work were all volitional actions, and they were conditions for > > subsequent experiences. That's all. Nothing mysterious. > > > _________ > > Dear Ray > > Before I reply to this could you confirm that you have the same > > understanding as Howard writes above? > > Robertk > > > Hi Howard and Robert, > > Yes Robert, my understanding is the same as Howard expresses above. > Looking forward to reading your response...Ray 19772 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) In a message dated 2/19/2003 6:32:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 2/18/03 10:59:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > I would like to study this further. Do you have any sutta references > > (or references in other texts) which talk about "not everything is > > due to one's own kamma", especially referencing "assault by others". > > > > > ============================ > My mind is like a sieve when it comes to remembering sutta > references > - I'm sorry. But I do recall that at least one such sutta was quoted on > DSG. > Perhaps someone else will come up with a reference. > > With metta, > Howard > The Sutta is in Book 4 of Samyutta Nikaya. Vedanasamyutta # 21. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, The Connected Discourse of the Buddha, it is on pages 1278 -- 1279. TG 19773 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > The Sutta is in Book 4 of Samyutta Nikaya. Vedanasamyutta # 21. In Bhikkhu > Bodhi's translation, The Connected Discourse of the Buddha, it is on pages > 1278 -- 1279. I am on the road. Is there an on-line version? Metta, Rob M :-) 19774 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) Hi All, From the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." This a macro, soteriological perspective highlighting (note the changes in sentence tense): - the "paticcasamuppada present effect" (naturally arising phenomena) of "Dependent on ... there is feeling." - the "paticcasamuppada present cause" (our reaction) of "What one feels ... that one mentally proliferates." - how the present cause binds us to samsara; "With what one has ... cognizable through the eye." The commentary identifies "perceives" with labeling (naming). "Thinks about" is identified as vitakka (I assume a different usage than the cetasika vitakka). "Mentally proliferates" is papanca. I am contemplating how this works from a micro, citta-process perspective. Here is a quote from "Reality and Concepts" by Khun Sujin: When the vithi-cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are cittas of the mind-door process. The first series of cittas of the mind- door process which arise after a sense-door process experience a sense object which has only just fallen away, they do not have a concept as object. In each series of mind-door process cittas there are two or three kinds of vithi-cittas, namely: one moment of mind- door adverting-consciousness, seven moments of javana-cittas and two moments of tadalambana-cittas. When the first series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there is a another series of mind-door process cittas, which can have as object a concept (such as shape and form, or the image of something as a "whole") on account of a sense object. When this series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away there are bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are more rounds of minddoor process cittas which follow. They know the meaning of something, they know words and names. In between the different series there are bhavanga-cittas. When we know that we see people or different things, the citta experiences a concept, not a paramattha dhamma which is rupa. The object which is a paramattha dhamma appearing through the eyes are only different colours. When the vithi-cittas of the mind-door process know that there are beings, people and different things, then the cittas have pannattis, concepts, as object. They know what a particular thing is. Let's start with a sense-door citta-process though the eye door. What is the object of this process? It is a visible object; a small dot (think of the dots of a TV screen). From a scientific perspective, I think of the input from a single optical sensor on the back of the retina. Though the eye-door citta process has javana cittas, there is not much kamma created at this stage. There could be clinging to sense objects (i.e. the desire to have visual sensations), but nothing "higher level" (i.e. I like roses) going on. Let's add in a few dots from more sense-door citta-processes. More weak kamma. With a collection of dots, we are now starting to "construct" a whole picture. Constructing a whole picture is done by a series of mind-door processes. These mind-door processes also create weak kamma as the volition (cetana) involved is very weak. Once the whole picture is complete, there are a series of mind-door citta-processes which perceive colour and shading (still very weak volition). With a whole picture, complete with colour and shading in place, the next set of thought processes conceive a shape. Another set of mind-door thought processes are involved as we name the object (it is a "flower"). The naming or "designation" process is still "weak". I suspect that this is the "perceiving" stage from the Honeyball Sutta. The next set of mind-door citta-processes are involved with "judgement"; (it is a "rose"), a refining of the naming process. The naming is further refined in the next step of mind-door citta-processes called the "classification" stage; (it is a "red rose"). The "judgement" and "classification" stages are probably the "thinking about" stage from the Honeyball Sutta. We have had one set of sense-door citta-processes (collecting the dots) and six sets of mind-door citta-processes (construction, perception, conception, designation, classification, judgement). All of these citta-processes have created weak kamma because of the limited strength of the volition involved. The next stage is the point at which kamma (volition) becomes strong. So far, the mind has been "expanding outward"; the next stage is when the mind starts "expanding upwards on the base it has created". As the mind "expands upwards", "volition gets stacked on top of volition" and the cumulative effect becomes very powerful; it creates strong kamma. The next stage is "mental proliferation" (papanca). In the example above, the mind jumps from "red rose" to "red roses are associated with romances", "I like red roses" and so on. Sense-door citta-processes make up a very small percentage of our citta-processes and contribute an even smaller percentage to our accumulations and kammic seeds. Mind-door citta-processes are far more important, both in terms of quantity and kammic impact. Here is what I am confused about: After the eye-door citta processes have "collected all the dots", we have mind-door citta process which "connects the dots" and constructs an image. What is the object of these mind-door citta processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? We have a number of mental impressions left over by the eye-door citta processes, we have the concepts of relationships between dots (together / separate / etc.) and we have a constructed image being created. A little later in the process we will have a similar problem when we have the mind-door citta process which labels or names the constructed image. What is the object for these mind-door citta processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? Is it the constructed image? Is the "past mental impression used for comparison"? Is it the closeness of the match? What I am thinking is that the concept of these mind-door processes must be the "relationship"; unfortunately, a "relationship" has to "point to" at least two different things such as: - Two dots - existing constructed image and element from database of names Unlike paramatthas which seem to be quite "simple" and "limited" in scope, a concept as an object of a mind door citta process can probably be quite complex. Perhaps the object of the mind door citta process is the relationship PLUS the two different things pointed to. Does anybody have any ideas or comments on this, or am I so confused that I can't even express myself clearly enough to formulate an intelligible question? Metta, Rob M :-) 19775 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) Dear RobM Kom wrote about this awhile back: | "As taught by Tan A. Sujin the namas (mentality)can experience objects through the six | dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and mano- | dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as paramatha | aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also | experienced, also as poramatha aramana, in the mano-dvara-javana- | vithi process. |It is only some vithis later that the mano-dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas start experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier cittas | experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for the cittas at this point is no longer paramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does not fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. | | | Before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), and (2) | processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we can deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of cittas) to condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara- javana | vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to | start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. | | The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), experiencing | the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see an unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then we may attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of taking paramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, namable concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on to. | | Hence, to add to my original comments, the paramatha aramana doesn't | become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it rises and falls away | virtually immediately? Only pannati(concept) becomes "sharper": the cittas | process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, and | hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" | mind. | | The other points that I was attempting to add before is that, seeing | without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the concepts of people, | animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears that an object that we see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: constant and unchanging. It is so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no longer there. By | the time we see a shape, the object that we actually saw is no longer | there. By the time we remember the name, the object is no longer there." endquote by Kom I want to add that all of this is theory but it can be absolutely known as the way things really are. Thinking about it won't convince us but when there is thinking these processes are happening and can be insighted directly to the degree that is appropriate to whatever level of understanding one has. I believe it is all so true. RobertK |________ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: > Hi All, > > From the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): > "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, > that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally > proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, > perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man > with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the > eye." > > This a macro, soteriological perspective highlighting (note the > changes in sentence tense): > - the "paticcasamuppada present effect" (naturally arising > phenomena) of "Dependent on ... there is feeling." > - the "paticcasamuppada present cause" (our reaction) of "What one > feels ... that one mentally proliferates." > - how the present cause binds us to samsara; "With what one has ... > cognizable through the eye." > > The commentary identifies "perceives" with labeling (naming). > > "Thinks about" is identified as vitakka (I assume a different usage > than the cetasika vitakka). > > "Mentally proliferates" is papanca. > > I am contemplating how this works from a micro, citta-process > perspective. > > Here is a quote from "Reality and Concepts" by Khun Sujin: > When the vithi-cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, > there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are cittas > of the mind-door process. The first series of cittas of the mind- > door process which arise after a sense-door process experience a > sense object which has only just fallen away, they do not have a > concept as object. In each series of mind-door process cittas there > are two or three kinds of vithi-cittas, namely: one moment of mind- > door adverting-consciousness, seven moments of javana-cittas and two > moments of tadalambana-cittas. When the first series of mind-door > process cittas has fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in > between, and then there is a another series of mind-door process > cittas, which can have as object a concept (such as shape and form, > or the image of something as a "whole") on account of a sense > object. When this series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away > there are bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are more rounds > of minddoor process cittas which follow. They know the meaning of > something, they know words and names. In between the different > series there are bhavanga-cittas. When we know that we see people or > different things, the citta experiences a concept, not a paramattha > dhamma which is rupa. The object which is a paramattha dhamma > appearing through the eyes are only different colours. When the > vithi-cittas of the mind-door process know that there are beings, > people and different things, then the cittas have pannattis, > concepts, as object. They know what a particular thing is. > > > Let's start with a sense-door citta-process though the eye door. > What is the object of this process? It is a visible object; a small > dot (think of the dots of a TV screen). From a scientific > perspective, I think of the input from a single optical sensor on > the back of the retina. Though the eye-door citta process has javana > cittas, there is not much kamma created at this stage. There could > be clinging to sense objects (i.e. the desire to have visual > sensations), but nothing "higher level" (i.e. I like roses) going on. > > Let's add in a few dots from more sense-door citta-processes. More > weak kamma. With a collection of dots, we are now starting > to "construct" a whole picture. Constructing a whole picture is done > by a series of mind-door processes. These mind-door processes also > create weak kamma as the volition (cetana) involved is very weak. > > Once the whole picture is complete, there are a series of mind-door > citta-processes which perceive colour and shading (still very weak > volition). > > With a whole picture, complete with colour and shading in place, the > next set of thought processes conceive a shape. > > Another set of mind-door thought processes are involved as we name > the object (it is a "flower"). The naming or "designation" process > is still "weak". I suspect that this is the "perceiving" stage from > the Honeyball Sutta. > > The next set of mind-door citta-processes are involved > with "judgement"; (it is a "rose"), a refining of the naming > process. The naming is further refined in the next step of mind- door > citta-processes called the "classification" stage; (it is a "red > rose"). The "judgement" and "classification" stages are probably > the "thinking about" stage from the Honeyball Sutta. > > We have had one set of sense-door citta-processes (collecting the > dots) and six sets of mind-door citta-processes (construction, > perception, conception, designation, classification, judgement). All > of these citta-processes have created weak kamma because of the > limited strength of the volition involved. > > The next stage is the point at which kamma (volition) becomes > strong. So far, the mind has been "expanding outward"; the next > stage is when the mind starts "expanding upwards on the base it has > created". As the mind "expands upwards", "volition gets stacked on > top of volition" and the cumulative effect becomes very powerful; it > creates strong kamma. The next stage is "mental proliferation" > (papanca). In the example above, the mind jumps from "red rose" > to "red roses are associated with romances", "I like red roses" and > so on. > > Sense-door citta-processes make up a very small percentage of our > citta-processes and contribute an even smaller percentage to our > accumulations and kammic seeds. Mind-door citta-processes are far > more important, both in terms of quantity and kammic impact. > > Here is what I am confused about: > After the eye-door citta processes have "collected all the dots", we > have mind-door citta process which "connects the dots" and > constructs an image. What is the object of these mind-door citta > processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? We have a number > of mental impressions left over by the eye-door citta processes, we > have the concepts of relationships between dots (together / > separate / etc.) and we have a constructed image being created. > > A little later in the process we will have a similar problem when we > have the mind-door citta process which labels or names the > constructed image. What is the object for these mind-door citta > processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? Is it the > constructed image? Is the "past mental impression used for > comparison"? Is it the closeness of the match? > > What I am thinking is that the concept of these mind-door processes > must be the "relationship"; unfortunately, a "relationship" has > to "point to" at least two different things such as: > - Two dots > - existing constructed image and element from database of names > > Unlike paramatthas which seem to be quite "simple" and "limited" in > scope, a concept as an object of a mind door citta process can > probably be quite complex. Perhaps the object of the mind door citta > process is the relationship PLUS the two different things pointed to. > > Does anybody have any ideas or comments on this, or am I so confused > that I can't even express myself clearly enough to formulate an > intelligible question? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 19776 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 9:49pm Subject: Re: Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) Hi Rob K, This is good stuff. In the section below, Kom describes the "concept" as "evolving" and "getting sharper". How does this happen at a mind-door citta-process level? I guess that this is my question. A mind-door citta-process starts with a single object (a concept) and it maintains the same object (same concept) throughout the citta- process. How does a mind-door citta-process allow a concept to evolve, change, get sharper? In order for a concept to evolve (or a concept to be formed from a paramattha), there must be an opportunity for something to be added (a layer of conceptual proliferation?). How does a mind-door citta-process allow something to be added to its object? Rob K, thanks for the opportunity to re-ask my question in a (hopefully) simpler way. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > | Before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), > and (2) > | processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we > can deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of > cittas) to condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It > must take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara- > javana > | vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to > | start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. > | > | The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), > experiencing > | the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see > an unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then > we may attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of > taking paramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, > namable concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on > to. > Only pannati(concept) becomes "sharper": > the cittas > | process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, > and > | hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" > | mind. 19777 From: Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) In a message dated 2/19/2003 8:33:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi All, > > From the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): > "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, > that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally > proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, > perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man > with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the > eye." > > This a macro, soteriological perspective highlighting (note the > changes in sentence tense): > - the "paticcasamuppada present effect" (naturally arising > phenomena) of "Dependent on ... there is feeling." > - the "paticcasamuppada present cause" (our reaction) of "What one > feels ... that one mentally proliferates." > - how the present cause binds us to samsara; "With what one has ... > cognizable through the eye." > > The commentary identifies "perceives" with labeling (naming). > > "Thinks about" is identified as vitakka (I assume a different usage > than the cetasika vitakka). > > "Mentally proliferates" is papanca. > > I am contemplating how this works from a micro, citta-process > perspective. > > Here is a quote from "Reality and Concepts" by Khun Sujin: > When the vithi-cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, > there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are cittas > of the mind-door process. The first series of cittas of the mind- > door process which arise after a sense-door process experience a > sense object which has only just fallen away, they do not have a > concept as object. In each series of mind-door process cittas there > are two or three kinds of vithi-cittas, namely: one moment of mind- > door adverting-consciousness, seven moments of javana-cittas and two > moments of tadalambana-cittas. When the first series of mind-door > process cittas has fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in > between, and then there is a another series of mind-door process > cittas, which can have as object a concept (such as shape and form, > or the image of something as a "whole") on account of a sense > object. When this series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away > there are bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are more rounds > of minddoor process cittas which follow. They know the meaning of > something, they know words and names. In between the different > series there are bhavanga-cittas. When we know that we see people or > different things, the citta experiences a concept, not a paramattha > dhamma which is rupa. The object which is a paramattha dhamma > appearing through the eyes are only different colours. When the > vithi-cittas of the mind-door process know that there are beings, > people and different things, then the cittas have pannattis, > concepts, as object. They know what a particular thing is. > > > Let's start with a sense-door citta-process though the eye door. > What is the object of this process? It is a visible object; a small > dot (think of the dots of a TV screen). From a scientific > perspective, I think of the input from a single optical sensor on > the back of the retina. Though the eye-door citta process has javana > cittas, there is not much kamma created at this stage. There could > be clinging to sense objects (i.e. the desire to have visual > sensations), but nothing "higher level" (i.e. I like roses) going on. > > Let's add in a few dots from more sense-door citta-processes. More > weak kamma. With a collection of dots, we are now starting > to "construct" a whole picture. Constructing a whole picture is done > by a series of mind-door processes. These mind-door processes also > create weak kamma as the volition (cetana) involved is very weak. > > Once the whole picture is complete, there are a series of mind-door > citta-processes which perceive colour and shading (still very weak > volition). > > With a whole picture, complete with colour and shading in place, the > next set of thought processes conceive a shape. > > Another set of mind-door thought processes are involved as we name > the object (it is a "flower"). The naming or "designation" process > is still "weak". I suspect that this is the "perceiving" stage from > the Honeyball Sutta. > > The next set of mind-door citta-processes are involved > with "judgement"; (it is a "rose"), a refining of the naming > process. The naming is further refined in the next step of mind-door > citta-processes called the "classification" stage; (it is a "red > rose"). The "judgement" and "classification" stages are probably > the "thinking about" stage from the Honeyball Sutta. > > We have had one set of sense-door citta-processes (collecting the > dots) and six sets of mind-door citta-processes (construction, > perception, conception, designation, classification, judgement). All > of these citta-processes have created weak kamma because of the > limited strength of the volition involved. > > The next stage is the point at which kamma (volition) becomes > strong. So far, the mind has been "expanding outward"; the next > stage is when the mind starts "expanding upwards on the base it has > created". As the mind "expands upwards", "volition gets stacked on > top of volition" and the cumulative effect becomes very powerful; it > creates strong kamma. The next stage is "mental proliferation" > (papanca). In the example above, the mind jumps from "red rose" > to "red roses are associated with romances", "I like red roses" and > so on. > > Sense-door citta-processes make up a very small percentage of our > citta-processes and contribute an even smaller percentage to our > accumulations and kammic seeds. Mind-door citta-processes are far > more important, both in terms of quantity and kammic impact. > > Here is what I am confused about: > After the eye-door citta processes have "collected all the dots", we > have mind-door citta process which "connects the dots" and > constructs an image. What is the object of these mind-door citta > processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? We have a number > of mental impressions left over by the eye-door citta processes, we > have the concepts of relationships between dots (together / > separate / etc.) and we have a constructed image being created. > > A little later in the process we will have a similar problem when we > have the mind-door citta process which labels or names the > constructed image. What is the object for these mind-door citta > processes? It is a concept, but what concept is it? Is it the > constructed image? Is the "past mental impression used for > comparison"? Is it the closeness of the match? > > What I am thinking is that the concept of these mind-door processes > must be the "relationship"; unfortunately, a "relationship" has > to "point to" at least two different things such as: > - Two dots > - existing constructed image and element from database of names > > Unlike paramatthas which seem to be quite "simple" and "limited" in > scope, a concept as an object of a mind door citta process can > probably be quite complex. Perhaps the object of the mind door citta > process is the relationship PLUS the two different things pointed to. > > Does anybody have any ideas or comments on this, or am I so confused > that I can't even express myself clearly enough to formulate an > intelligible question? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > Hi Rob Is it possible to over-analyse a sutta with too much detail? I think the Buddha taught so that we could understand the "priciples" of nature and psychology in sufficient detail to achieve the purpose of that teaching. If the principles of dependent origination and causality (in general) are understood so that insight into impermanence, affliction, and no-self can uproot delusion/craving states, than that's all that's needed...and that's what needs to be focussed on. IMO The extract from the Honeyball sutta you quoted seems like a straightforward presentation of causality, focusing on mental activities, and directed toward the subject: "perceptions and notions that beset a person." (These perceptions and notions are those dealing with self-view/delusion and the suffering that results therefrom.) This Sutta (The Honeyball) goes straight to the heart of the matter by indicating that no sorrow/suffering can arise when there is no foundation for experience. One might also surmise from this sutta that Nibbana is not some "existent lofty un-state state," but rather -- the end of experience. I figure you were looking for an explanation from an Abhidhamma point of view. I just proferred this style of explanation as a counterpart for consideration. Not so much to consider the Sutta, although that would be nice, but to consider methods of analysis. TG PS... I'd talk longer, but I have to go now and take an asprin after reading your post. ;-) 19778 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) Hi TG, Sorry about the headache; I put the "(a long one)" in the header to warn people. Let me try to re-ask the question in a short way: This Sutta explains that the mind "builds" upon what is perceived (conceptual proliferation). From an Abhidhamma analysis perspective, how does a mind conceptually profiferate? I am not asking about stages of mind-door citta-processes here (construction, perception, conception, designation, classification, judgement), I am asking about taking a concept as an input to a single mind-door citta- process and getting a bigger, clearer, more-complete, more-deluded concept as an output (which of course acts as an input to another mind-door citta process). I apologize for the awkward and long-winded way in which I asked the question. I wanted to establish some background informaiton (which I was pleased to see was largely verified by Kom's post forwarded by Rob K). Any ideas? Metta, Rob M :-) 19779 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:28pm Subject: Re: Mind Door Process Confusion (a long one) --- Dear RobM, If I can just repeat a piece from your original post:"Sense-door citta-processes make up a very small percentage of our citta-processes and contribute an even smaller percentage to our accumulations and kammic seeds. Mind-door citta-processes are far more important, both in terms of quantity and kammic impact." And even in a sense door process - such as seeing - the actual moments of seeing consciousness are just a flash. Nina mentioned this recently. Through ignorance it seems that seeing lasts for a long time but really the whole world is completely dark except for brief flashes of colours appearing through the eyedoor intermittantly. Even the moments of insight that understand seeing are themselves dark (they are not cakkhu-vinnana). But now the mind-door processes are hidden by ignorance. Acharn Sujin explains that during true vipassana nana it is like it is reversed. The mind-door becomes apparent and so the actual aloneness and uncontrollability is known. Not something to hurry. On your questions remember that all the arahants still know concepts, they know what a rose is, what its name is. But there is no papanca - there is no mana, ditthi and craving (the three papanca). They may still use complex thinking when they explain the Abhidhamma, but void of papanca. However, the wordling uninstructed or deluded about the Buddha's teaching will surely imagine those concepts to be real. So many billions of moments of cittas that occur just to realise- this is a rose. Who could make it happen; who could stop it happening? And who could ever begin to understand it without the arising of a Sammasambuddha to point the way. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult " wrote: Hi Rob K, This is good stuff. In the section below, Kom describes the "concept" as "evolving" and "getting sharper". How does this happen at a mind-door citta-process level? I guess that this is my question. A mind-door citta-process starts with a single object (a concept) and it maintains the same object (same concept) throughout the citta- process. How does a mind-door citta-process allow a concept to evolve, change, get sharper? In order for a concept to evolve (or a concept to be formed from a paramattha), there must be an opportunity for something to be added (a layer of conceptual proliferation?). How does a mind-door citta-process allow something to be added to its object? Rob K, thanks for the opportunity to re-ask my question in a (hopefully) simpler way. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1 " wrote: > | Before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), > and (2) > | processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we > can deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of > cittas) to condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It > must take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara- > javana > | vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to > | start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. > | > | The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), > experiencing > | the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see > an unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then > we may attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of > taking paramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, > namable concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on > to. > Only pannati(concept) becomes "sharper": > the cittas > | process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, > and > | hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" > | mind. --- End forwarded message --- 19780 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Rob M, Great to have you back and to read your interesting and imaginative comments on difficult subjects like kamma and Abhidhamma here: wrote: > I was very surprised to read in a recent post by Sarah that in > his "Introduction to Conditional Relations", U Narada called the > Abhidhamma "the word of the Buddha". I think that U Narada was > taking some "artistic license". ..... I’d like to know what you make of these extracts then in this regard: 1)recently quoted by Nina in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15484.html "We read about Sariputta in Wheel 90-92: ***** 3)From Atthasalini transl (‘Expositor’, PTS p.6) “Now when he laid down the table of contents he foresaw that, two hudnred and eighteen years after his death, Tissa, Moggali’s son, seated in the midst of one thousand bhikkhus, would elaborate the Kathavatthu....So Tissa, Moggali’s son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the Teacher. Hence the entire book became the WORD OF THE BUDDHA.” ***** 4)From Atth transl p.11 “The following points in the Patthana should be considered:....Of these the twenty-two triplets and the hundred couplets taught by the omniscient Buddha are the directly spoken words of the conqueror and form the table of contents for the seven books. Then whence arose the other forty-two couplets? By whom were they laid down and taught? They originated with Sariputta, Generalissimo of the Law, having been laid down and taught by him. But he did not lay them down through his own self-evolved knowledge. They have been gathered from the Eka-Nipata and duka-Nipata of the Anguttara-Nikaya, the Sangiti and Dasuttarasuttantas of the Digha-Nikaya, in order to help students of the Abhidhamma in their references to the Suttantas.” ***** Rob:> My understanding, from reading the Atthasalini, is that the Buddha > taught Abhidhamma to the Gods in Tavatimsa Heaven for three months, > in gratitude to his former mother. Each day, when it was time for > His alms-round, He created a Buddha after His own image and willed > that the created Buddha teach the Dhamma so much while the Buddha > came to earth. After alms-round, the Buddha met Sariputta and told > Sariputta that so much of the Dhamma had been taught during the > interval. Effectively, the Buddha passed along a "Table of Contents" > (The Matika?)and Sariputta (being so endowed with knowledge) filled > in the rest for his 500 followers (who of course gained > enlightenment). > > In summary, there are three versions of Abhidhamma: > - Taught by the Buddha in Tavatimsa Heaven (long) > - Taught by the Buddha to Sariputta (short) > - Taught by Sariputta to 500 monks (medium, passed to us) > > If we take this account as fact, then the "Abhidhamma" (as we know > it) was not the "word of the Buddha", but came from Sariputta. ..... S:I agree with the facts and understand that literally speaking, the Abhidhamma was taught by Sariputta. The same could also be said about those parts of the Suttanta expunded by Sariputta in detail, such as the entire Patisambhidamagga. In an earlier post I wrote (and welcome any of your comments): “Often in the suttas too, we read many references to the Buddha’s Teachings as explained by his key disciples such as in the Nakulipita Sutta where the words were elaborated by Sariputta.In the Atthasalini, it gives the following example from DN: “ ‘Bhikkhus, learned is Mahakaccana, profoundly wise is Mahakaccana. If you had asked me the same question, I would have answered exactly as he has done.’ Thus since the time when the Teacher gave his approval, the whole suttanta became the word of the Buddha. And it is the same with the suttas expounded by Ananda and others.” ***** (Also see note at end of post* regarding the early divisions of texts ) S:As you suggested, the Great disciples were ‘endowed with knowledge’ such that they needed to hear relatively little. One more quote about Ananda this time from the Atthasalini p.19: “The Elder Ananda was indeed of wide experience, a student of the Three Pitakas, and could learn, recite and preach, as he stood, one thousand five hundred stanzas or sixty thousand feet, as easily as though he were gathering creepers and flowers....None but the Buddha was able to teach, or attain the distinction of teaching this elder the actual text, word by word.....” As a simple example, if a Burmese monk has memorised the Abhidamattha Sangaha, he may hear one word such as 'rupa' or 'vedana' and immediately be able to give all the details from the text. Perhaps in a similar way, a Great Disciple has not only memorised but thoroughly comprehended the entire Teachings to date, so that relatively few words would be necessary to expound the details contained in the Abhidhamma. Just my ideas (becoming a little speculative;-)), anyway. ..... S:I greatly appreciate all the comments in the rest of your post, most of which are reluctantly snipped. Just a couple - ..... Rob:> Nevertheless, the Tavatimsa heaven incident occured during the > seventh vassa (rainy season retreat), so the Buddha would have been > around for correct any mistakes made by Sariputta. The Abhidhamma > must have been recited and retaught many times in the subsequent > years while the Buddha was still alive. ..... This is a good point. I also understand that the Abhidhamma is always taught by Buddhas in this heavenly realm in its entirety. Details of previous Buddhas and the 30 'regulations' for 'Self-Awakened' Buddhas, including the teaching of Abhidhamma in this realm, is given in the Mahuratthavilaasinii, the commentary to the Buddhavamsa (Chronicle of Buddhas), transl into Eng (PTS) as 'The Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning. "These, thirty exactly, are regulation for all Buddhas". The very last 'regulation' is "the final nibbana after having attained the twenty-four hundred thousand crores of attainments." ..... Rob:> The words are not as important as the message. If we get caught up > in the words, we become scholars. Being a scholar doesn't help us > get rebirth in a good plane, nor does it help us escape from > Samsara. Nothing wrong with being a scholar (Sariputta was one), but > it is not enough. If we focus on the message, (hopefully) we > translate this focus into action; study -> practice -> realization > (pariyatti -> patipatti -> pativedha). ..... S: These are very helpful points and I agree that the points made here easily become academic. We both share a great appreciation of the contents of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, but I'm just pointing out these quotes as for some people it is discouraging if they have the idea that the Abhidhamma was only taught by 'later' bhikkhus. In regard to your good reminders, let me finally add this one (again;-)) from the Atthasalini p.31” “The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma makes his mind run to exces in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction.” Good reminders for us all and thank you for your other helpful ones. Look forward to any more comments. Metta, Sarah *Note: In an earlier series, I also wrote about how the Khudakka Nikaya (of the Suttanta) included in the First Council recital includes the Abhidhamma texts: “In the Atthasalini, we read: “Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? the whole of the Vinaya-Pitaka, Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and the fifteen divisions.....beginning with Khuddakapatha, Dhammapada, all the remaining words of the Buddha, excluding the four Nikayas....” In both the Bahiranidana and the Atthasalini, detail is given of the explanation in detail of how the 84,000 units of dhamma-vinaya text is formed and this includes how: “Thus as rehearsed at the council, the Abhidhamma is Pitaka by Pitaka classification, Khuddaka-Nikaya by Nikaya classification, Veyyakarana by part classification and constitutes two or three thousand untis of text by the classification of textual units” and “In the Abhidhamma each trinal or dual classification, as well as each clasification of conscious intervals, forms one unit of text.” “ ***** More detail in this earlier post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m8647.html ============================================================= 19781 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Smallchap and Sarah about vipassana practice Hi Eddie(Smallchap, Dinesh and All), Glad to read all your comments and links on this thread. I don’t think I’ve lived up to my honoured spot in the subject heading yet;-) ..... --- Eddie Lou wrote: > Hi, All, > > One possibility is - vipassana practice itself, > whether under guidance or not. > > I myself know precious few of practical vipassana, > which is how Gotama attained Full and Final > enlightment. ..... You may find it helpful to look at the following old messages with definitions of ‘vipassana’. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6954 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8170 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3663 There are others too under ‘vipassana’ at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Let us know if anything is not clear or you disagree with any of the points - as Rob M just mentioned (to Howard),we often learn most from the disagreements;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 19782 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Swee Boon, thanks for your further comments: wrote: > The Buddha though having eradicated the roots of attachment, > aversion and ignorance, yet: > > Is cetana by way of conascent kamma-condition present in the Buddha? > IMHO, I think the answer is yes. ..... yes ..... > Is cetana by way of asynchronous kamma-condition present in the > Buddha? IMHO, I think the answer is no. ..... no ..... > Is vipaka by way of asynchronous kamma-condition present in the > Buddha? IMHO, I think the answer is yes. ..... yes....lots of agreement so far;-) ..... > In this way, I see kamma being the chief reality and chief condition > that ties us to samsara. For even the Buddha Gotama while alive was > still bound to this samsaric existence for the last time. Buddha > Gotama was still kamma though the three unwholesome roots were > eradicated. ..... This may be a quibble only - I would say the arahant if free from the ties of samsara, the cycle birth and death, when the last of the defilements are eradicated. As you say, there are still conditions for vipaka cittas and rupas conditioned by kamma to arise. There is no kusala or akusala kamma performed by the arahant, however, as we agree. There are only sobhana kiriya cittas which are ‘inoperative’ and thus there are no more links in the paticca samuppada (dependent origination) cycle. (I still don’t follow you when you say “Gotama was still kamma”, but am happy to let it rest). ..... > But Sarah, I am not sure if the three wholesome roots are eradicated > by an arahant. I don't think so, but perhaps you can > elaborate/clarify here. ..... Good question! As I understand, as there are no more kusala cittas, only kiriya (inoperative)cittas, accompanied by sobhana(‘beautiful’)mental factors, we can refer to sobhana hetus (beautiful or wholesome roots), but not to kusala roots. There must be roots for cittas in the javana process. ..... > > By kamma the world moves, > By kamma men (& women) live, > And by kamma are all beings bound, > As by its pin the rolling chariot wheels. > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid3.html ..... Thank you - a very good reminder indeed. With the other discussions going on, perhaps we also need to consider the roles of supportive and obstructive kamma, favourable and unfavourable factors, meaning kusala or akusala kamma have more or fewer chances to bring their results. These were discussed before once or twice and are all given in detail in the Sammohavinodani, the commentary to the Vibhanga (Book of Analysis).Nina also adds some of these details under kamma condition in 'Conditions': http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf Let me share one on the root of attachment (always accompanied by the root of ignorance too): The Cause of Suffering: “Monks, what is the noble truth about the origin of suffering? Just this craving, leading to rebirth, accompanied by pleasure and emotion, and finding satisfaction now here now there, namely the craving for sense-pleasure, the craving for new life and the craving for annihilation.” DN 11,308 ..... I think in any case we agree that these 2 conditions (hetu or root and kamma) are very, very important conditioning factors. Metta, Sarah. p.s A friend off-list asked me to post a list or a link to a list of the 24 conditions. They are listed in this post of Shin’s: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/640 =========================================================== 19783 From: Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Robert (and Ray) - In a message dated 2/19/03 10:25:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > Dear Ray and Howard, > Thanks for explaining your views on kamma. Just to make sure I > understand you I quote a little from the Dhammapada atthakattha > below. I think you agree that it is standard Theravada teaching, and > then does it fit with your comments? > http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm#threegroupsof > A group of bhikkhus were on their way to pay homage to the Buddha and > they stopped at a village on the way. Some people were cooking alms- > food for those bhikkhus when one of the houses caught fire and a ring > of fire flew up into the air. At that moment, a crow came flying, got > caught in the ring of fire and dropped dead in the central part of > the village. The bhikkhus seeing the dead crow observed that only the > Buddha would be able to explain for what evil deed this crow had to > die in this manner. After taking alms-food they continued on their > journey to pay homage to the Buddha, and also to ask about the > unfortunate crow. > > The Buddha answer to the first group: "Bhikkhus, once there was a > farmer who had an ox. The ox was very lazy and also very stubborn. It > could not be coaxed to do any work; it would lie down chewing the cud > or else go to sleep. The farmer lost his temper many times on account > of this lazy, stubborn animal; so in anger he tied a straw rope round > the neck of the ox and set fire to it, and the ox died. On account of > this evil deed the, farmer had suffered for a long time in niraya. > and in serving out the remaining part of his punishment, he had been > burnt to death in the last seven existences." > Then, a bhikkhu remarked, "O indeed! There is no escape from evil > consequences for one who has done evil, even if he were in the sky, > or in the ocean, or in a cave." To him, the Buddha said, "Yes, > Bhikkhu! You are right; even in the sky or anywhere else, there is no > place which is beyond the reach of evil consequences." > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > Verse 127. Not in the sky, nor in the middle of the ocean, nor in the > cave of a mountain, nor anywhere else, is there a place, where one > may escape from the consequences of an evil deed. > > At the end of the discourse all the bhikkhus attained Sotapatti > Fruition. > Robertk > =========================== A possible scenario: The farmer, a man consumed by anger, killed an ox by fire. This left an indelible mark, a seed, in the farmers's mindstream. This terrible deed led firstly to rebirth as an animal, a crow. Later on, encountering fire, the crow, instead of avoiding the fire, was distracted somehow (he was predisposed to miss the danger of fire), and he flew right into it - he was consumed by the fire - more correctly (and poetically), he was consumed by his anger. Does kamma leave mental seeds, and do those seeds have effects? Yes, but always by some actual means, some actual mechanism. This is how I see it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19784 From: Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions vs. Cause-Effect (was Kamma and Conventional Events) Hi, TG - Thanks for the following. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/19/03 10:43:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > >============================ > > My mind is like a sieve when it comes to remembering sutta > >references > >- I'm sorry. But I do recall that at least one such sutta was quoted on > >DSG. > >Perhaps someone else will come up with a reference. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > > The Sutta is in Book 4 of Samyutta Nikaya. Vedanasamyutta # 21. In > Bhikkhu > Bodhi's translation, The Connected Discourse of the Buddha, it is on pages > 1278 -- 1279. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19785 From: bodhi342 Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Howard and All, This is an interesting dialogue, and I do not want to interrupt its flow. My questions below are peripheral to the main thrust of this argument, and intended to seek clarification only. Please help me sort out some confusing aspects in relation to what is said elsewhere on dsg about Abhidhamma. How is "This left an indelible mark, a seed, in the farmers's mindstream" reconciled with understanding of Anatta? If we believe, in no-self, why should we be bothered with kammic seeds etc. persisting from existence cycle to existence cycle? Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' (mentioned in a prior message) for the old farmer for past misdeeds? How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is just occuring in the moment? How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent with the expectation that we should test any teaching against reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and references to devas etc.] I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead of quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint. Thanks. metta, dharam 19786 From: Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Dharam - In a message dated 2/20/03 11:14:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, bodhi342@y... writes: > Hi Howard and All, > > This is an interesting dialogue, and I do not want to interrupt its > flow. My questions below are peripheral to the main thrust of this > argument, and intended to seek clarification only. Please help me > sort out some confusing aspects in relation to what is said elsewhere > on dsg about Abhidhamma. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm the wrong person to ask about the relationship of anything to abhidhamma. I am not an abhidhammika. But I will comment on a few points you raise. ---------------------------------------------- > > How is "This left an indelible mark, a seed, in the farmers's > mindstream" reconciled with understanding of Anatta? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand the use of the term "seed" as metaphorical. What I believe is the case is that inclinations/tendencies are replicated from mindstate to mindstate until, when finally conditions are right, they "bear fruit" and no longer replicate. ------------------------------------------------ > > If we believe, in no-self, why should we be bothered with kammic > seeds etc. persisting from existence cycle to existence cycle? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that the full and precise details of kamma are important to the goal of the Dhamma. But I do think that wrong understandings of kamma - and I make no presumption here of who is right and who is wrong - can thwart one's progress. I particularly am concerned about any views which may lead to a sense of hopelessness and fatalism. ----------------------------------------------- > > > Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' > (mentioned in a prior message) for the old farmer for past misdeeds? > > How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is > just occuring in the moment? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of primary importance, as I see it, is following the training program laid out by the Buddha. Intellectual considerations, while of definite importance in helping us understand the Dhamma, pale in comparison to moment to moment attending to what arises. ------------------------------------------------- > > How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent > with the expectation that we should test any teaching against > reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and > references to devas etc.] > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: This was merely a vehicle for understanding of principles, and trying to determine what makes sense. (I leave it for others to decide whether we are dealing with mythical events or not in this case. It really doesn't matter to the issue.) -------------------------------------------- > > I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead of > quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that both are useful. One disclaimer: We shouldn't be all too sure about our logic. For one thing, the reasoning may be flawed. For another, out premisses, particularly our unstated (or even unrealized) premisses are often based on the three poisons. ----------------------------------------------- Thanks.> > > metta, > dharam > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19787 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:05am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 27 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 27 We read further on in the Commentary: Someone may be offended by another person who is overcome by anger, who commits a wrong but does not even apologize. However, the person who is wronged may cause the other and himself to be reconciled and united in friendship by speaking the following words, ³You should come, you should learn the recitation, listen to the explanations (of the Dhamma), and be diligent in mental development. What is the reason that you have become estranged?² This is his view, it is his nature to be full of loving-kindness. He is superior, he can be considered as someone who fulfills a weighty task, because he undertakes the task of friendship. The Bodhisatta exhorted in that way the recluse who was his father. From then on the recluse who was his father trained himself and devoted himself to ascetical practices. However, that was only in his past life, and in his present life he acted as he used to act. When his son pushed him with his head in his back he became angry and impatient. He turned back and started anew from the same point and walked from there on again so that they arrived in the Jeta Grove when it was already dark. This shows us that nobody can control dhammas, no matter whether they are akusala or kusala. Sometimes there are conditions for the arising of many kusala dhammas. At other times there are conditions for the arising of akusala which has not yet been eradicated. During one lifespan someone may have tried to train himself to eliminate defilements, but if defilements have not been completely eradicated, there are still latent tendencies like germs which can be the condition for their arising. Therefore, someone¹s actions will be in accordance with the strength of those defilements. If someone has listened to the Dhamma time and again, he will see that the Dhamma the Buddha taught is profound, that it is difficult to understand it and to penetrate the characteristics of realities which the ariyans have clearly realized. Thus we can see the characteristic of patience which is kusala as it is to be applied in daily life. There must be patience to be able to see that the Dhamma we heard is difficult to understand, but that nevertheless understanding can grow gradually, that it grows all the time. Then one day in the future we shall receive the result of patience which is the highest ascetism, that is, when we are able to realize the four noble Truths, just as all the ariyans. A person with paññå will see with regard to his own life that it is essential to have the utmost patience in each situation. One should have patience to refrain from aversion, displeasure, regret or feeling slighted by the action and speech of someone else, patience in all situations, also with regard to the issues of life and death. When someone understands the Dhamma he will see the significance of patience, patience to be diligent in the study of the Dhamma, to listen to the Dhamma and to investigate and consider it. We should study and practise the Dhamma with sincerity, sincerity which can lead to becoming the perfection of truthfulness, dealt with in the next chapter. ******** End of Ch 7. 19788 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and concepts Dear Howard, Smallchap and all, a correction to be made: It is at sammassana nana, the third stage of tender insight, that the arising and falling of the khandhas is directly experienced. Nina op 18-02-2003 19:07 schreef nina van gorkom op nilo@e...: > we may think of khandha as a whole, it seems as if it is a concept. It is a > concept so long as we have not yet directly experienced the khandhas. When > the second stage of insight is reached the khandhas can be directly > experienced, dhammas that arise and fall away, that are past, present and > future. 19789 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussion on Satipatthana at the Foundation week 5 no 2 op 19-02-2003 16:11 schreef Jaran Jainhuknan op jjn@b...: Dear Jaran, Thank you very much. I especially like the reminder of the moment, always the moment: A Sujin:< Is there a need to know how many magga factors at > the vipassana ~na~na moment? At the moment of vipassana > ~na~na or even of satipatthana, it is beyond the theory. > What matters is now, but we almost always overlook [the > characteristic of dhamma at] this moment. When > satisa.mpajjhanna arises, do we need to know how many > cetasikas co-arising?> N: And this one, can we hear enough of this? Daily life can't be stressed enough. being seen, ... and both now quickly have fallen away. > Similarly, at the moment of hearing, there is hearing and > what is being heard. If we are to experience the realities, > we will experience the characteristics of hearing that it is > the element that ``knows'' an object and what is heard as > the element that is being experienced. All of these happen > in daily, ordinary life.> N: True, we have doubts when caught in the details, until realities are experienced by insight, such as doubts about kamma and vipaka, doubts about vipassana nana, what it is like, how it can penetrate characteristics. You quote: detail of the concept [as in theory] of dhamma which is not > the direct experience of characteristics of dhamma. N: With appreciation, Nina. 19790 From: Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and concepts Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/20/03 1:07:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, Smallchap and all, > a correction to be made: > It is at sammassana nana, the third stage of tender insight, that the > arising and falling of the khandhas is directly experienced. > Nina > > op 18-02-2003 19:07 schreef nina van gorkom op nilo@e...: > > >we may think of khandha as a whole, it seems as if it is a concept. It is > a > >concept so long as we have not yet directly experienced the khandhas. When > >the second stage of insight is reached the khandhas can be directly > >experienced, dhammas that arise and fall away, that are past, present and > >future. > > > ========================== Is that the stage called "bhanga"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19791 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:26am Subject: Anatta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: > > If we believe, in no-self, why should we be bothered with kammic > seeds etc. persisting from existence cycle to existence cycle? > > Why should we be concerned with concepts such as 'punishment' > (mentioned in a prior message) for the old farmer for past misdeeds? > > How is concern about kamma consistent with concentrating on what is > just occuring in the moment? > > How is the the seeming attention paid to mythical issues consistent > with the expectation that we should test any teaching against > reality? [The stories of the farmer, Maha Mogallana etc. and > references to devas etc.] > > Thanks. > _________________ "I guess I am looking more for logical explanations, instead of > quotation from suttas, to buttress a viewpoint." Dear Dharam, The Tipitaka and commentaries are the words of the Buddha and arahants - why would you want to go past these in favour of the explanations of others? Nevertheless I give a simple reply with the understanding that this is far inferior to what has been handed down and recorded by the monks. You ask about how kamma fits with anatta, no-self? We could ask how could there be anatta without kamma. Anatta is simply another way to say conditioned - that all dhammas arise due to various conditions and cannot arise when those conditions are absent. Kamma is a basic condition. You ask how it applies to the present moment? What is occuring now, at this instant? Is seeing consciousness arising? If it is then that is vipaka, the result of kamma. Is there thinking after the seeing; is there liking or disliking of what is seen or thought about? If so that is kilesa (defilement) that may lead to new kamma , or even be kamma , here and now. I talked about this in the three rounds of kamma, kilesa and vipaka vatta. If kamma is not understood 'anatta' is simply a word. It becomes a concept to think about rather than the actual fact of moments as they are. I can write more about this if you wish. RobertK 19792 From: robmoult Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:11pm Subject: Attention Suan Hi Suan, I tried replying to your message and attaching the paper (only 250K after zipping) but my message kept getting kicked back. The error message is quite cryptic, but I think that I am being treated as "SPAM" by your email system. Please email me another email address for me to use. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Our company just installed a SPAM filter, but I don't think that it would block outgoing messages. I even tried setting up a new Yahoo! Mail address and send it out from there; same problem. 19793 From: Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Way 53, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear Comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 67 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html If to a bhikkhu who performs the duties detailed above, betimes, (there arises an intense feeling of discomfort owing to hunger) if his kamma-produced caloricity becomes very strong (pajjalati, lit, flames up and lays hold of the derived, assimilated material of the body owing to the absence of undigested food in the stomach, if sweat exudes from his body and if he is unable to concentrate on his subject of meditation, he takes his bowl and the robe quite early in the morning, worships the relic shrine speedily, and enters the village to get gruel just when the village herds go out of their pens for pasturing. After he gets the gruel he goes to sitting-hall and drinks it. Then, with the swallowing of just two or three mouthfuls, the kamma-produced caloricity letting go the material of the body -- i.e., the inner lining of the stomach [udara patalam] lays hold of the property of the food taken in. And that bhikkhu, having got to the assuagement of the distress of the caloric process like a man bathed with a hundred pots of cool water, having partaken of the (rest of the) gruel with the thought of meditation uppermost in mind, washed bowl and mouth, attended to the subject of meditation till the later forenoon meal, wandered for alms in the remaining places -- in the places where he got no gruel and so where he could still go for alms -- and taken the meal with just the thought of meditation uppermost in mind, returns, having taken up just that subject of meditation which is thence forward present in his mind. This person is called the one who does not carry forth but returns with the thought of meditation. [Tika] "Kamma-produced caloricity" [kammajja tejo] is an expression referring to the function of that part of the alimentary tract where the bile helps digestion and from which vital heat spreads -- the grahani according to Ayurveda. It is stated that the commentator said kamma-produced caloricity concerning "the seizure," the name of the alimentary function explained above [gahanim sandhayaha]. [T] "Becomes very strong means": generates a condition of heat. [T] "Subject of meditation does not get on to the road of contemplative thought" owing to the disappearance of concentration of the wearied body through hunger-fatigue. [T] When in the stomach, indeed, property like cooked rice (called the underived, the unassimilated or that which is not due to pre-clinging) is absent; kamma-produced caloricity gets hold of the inner lining of the stomach. That causes the utterance of words like the following: "I am hungry; give me food." [T] When food is taken, kamma-produced caloricity having let go the inner lining of the stomach, gets hold of the food-property. Then the living being becomes calm. Therefore in the commentaries kamma-produced caloricity is spoken of as (a malignant spirit, a devourer of the living, frequenting pools, fording-places and the like and known by the shadow it casts on the water) a shadow-demon. And bhikkhus, like this one, who, after drinking gruel and exerting themselves in the development of insight, reached the state of Arahantship in the Buddha's Dispensation are past all numbering (so many have they been). In the Island of the Lion Race, alone [sihala dipe yeva], there is not a seat of sitting-hall in the various villages which is not a place where a bhikkhu, having sat and drunk gruel, attained Arahantship (tesu tesu gamesu asanasalaya na tam asanam atthi yattha yagum pivitva arahattam patta bhikkhu natthi]. [T] "And bhikkhus, like this one," and so forth. With these words the commentator points out the state of benefit of the bhikkhu attending to the thoughts of meditation, even, in the way aforesaid. But a bhikkhu who is a loose liver [pamada vihari, lit. liver in negligence, carelessness or indolence], who is a slacker [nikkhitta dhuro, lit. One who has thrown away the yoke -- or the burden of right exertion -- and so is an irresponsible person], having broken all observances [sabba vattani bhinditva] whilst living spiritually frozen through the fivefold bondage of mind [pañca vidha ceto vinibandha baddha citto viharanto], having entered the village for alms without having even shown a sign of the fact that there is a thing called a subject of meditation (of contemplation), and having walked about and eaten his meal in unbefitting company, comes out of the village an empty fellow. This bhikkhu is called a person who neither carries forth nor returns with the thought of meditation. Who is spoken of with the words "This one carries forth and carries back" must be known just through the means of the observance of carrying forth and carrying back (the subject of meditation from the beginning to the end of the journey to and from the village). [T] "Just through the means of the observance of carrying forth and carrying back" means: By way of whatsoever going for and returning from alms-gathering only with the thought of meditation. 19794 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:26pm Subject: Kalupahana (was Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment) Hi, Robert ~ --- Dear Connie, Could you say what you like about these articles. Maybe quote some passages. thanks robert > Kalupahana on: > "The Buddhist conception of time and temporality" > "The Buddhist conceptions of subject and object and their moral implications" > "Causality: The Central Philosophy of Buddhism" ---- There were a couple of other articles by or about Kalupahana from other sites I didn't list. One was "Di^nnaaga's theory of immaterialism". I don't remember any other names right now and didn't bother to put them in my half dozen screenfulls of notes under 'Kalupahana'. This first quote from 'time and temporality' is my favorite and Howard wondered where he could find. I just thought he might be interested in the others as well since he's mentioned Kalupahana before and made me curious. I like it because it makes me ask myself what I really think when I say "all things are present". His [Buddha's] criticism runs thus: Monks, there are these three linguistic conventions or usages of words or terms which are distinct, have been distinct in the past, are distinct at present and will be distinct in the future and which are not ignored by the recluses and brahmans who are wise. Which three? Whatever form (ruupa) there has been, which has ceased to be, which is past and has changed is called, reckoned or termed "has been" (ahosi); it is not reckoned as "it exists" (atthi) nor as "it will be" (bhavissati). (The same is said about the other four aggregates--sensation, perception, dispositions and consciousness.)... Whatever form is not arisen, not come to be, is called, reckoned or termed is "it will be" (bhavissati) and is not reckoned as "it exists" or as "it has been." ...Whatever form has become and has manifested itself is called, reckoned or termed as "it exists" (atthi) and is not reckoned as "it has been" or as "it will be."(30) It is very clear from this passage that the theory according to which the past and the future exist in the present or even the view that a thing exists during the past, the present, and the future are the results of unwarranted interpretation of linguistic usage. I like this one regarding "telling the future in Buddhism": As is well known, omniscience (sabba~n~nutaa), as later understood, was not claimed by the Buddha. We come across only two instances when the Buddha made any kind of prediction into the future with much certainty. One is the prediction that a 'stream entrant' (sotaapanna) is certain (niyata) to attain enlightenment (sambodhiparaayana), and the other is that a person who has eliminated craving and thus attained enlightenment will not be reborn (khii.na jaati, nfpara.m itthattaaya). Miscellaneous: the group of conditions (hetusamuuha) referred to in the texts, both Paali and Chinese, do not refer to a difference between hetu (cause) and pratyaya (condition) "nearly eighteen of the twenty-four causal correlations enumerated in the Pa.t.thaana have counterparts in the Sarvaastivaada and Yogaacaara theories. We have not been able to find parallels for six of the relations enumerated by the Theravaadins. However, in addition to those mentioned, the Yogaacaara list contains thirteen more relations for which parallels are not traceable in the Theravaada Abhidhamma" "even extrasensory perceptions and emancipation are not considered supernatural occurrences in Buddhism. They are natural causal occurrences" causality and form, the two aspects of the object (aalambanasya dvibhaaga) which are necessary to prove its existence (astitva) From time immemorial this objective aspect (vi.sayaruupa) and the force which transforms consciousness into the subject-object relationship, that is, the sense organ, continue to be mutually conditioned. Therefore, according to Di^nnaaga, this subject-object discrimination (generally called vikalpa) carries more reality than the material external object, which has no reality whatsoever. Here there is no denial of the validity of sense perception. I know none of that really answers 'what I like about the articles'. Hope you don't mind. Maybe it gives you some idea of what I think I don't know. peace, connie 19795 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:38pm Subject: Re: About Christmas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > How are you? I've got a toy from my teacher, a > doll. That doll dosen't work too much for me. You are > lucky that you got a wallet from your parents. I've > got nothing from my parents because I don't celebrate > Christmas. > > What is a Buddhist temple? I've never been in > one.. Why do you like to go to the Buddhist temple? > Good luck. > > Love, > Janet Hi Janet, Sorry that it has taken me a while to respond. I am glad that you got a doll for Christmas from your teacher but I am not sure what you mean that it doesn't `work for you'. I thought dolls just laid there! :-) When I was a little boy I didn't like dolls, I liked little toy cars the most. Especially to play with them in 'dirt cities' with my friends. :-) But I also liked my microscope and chemistry set. Well, let me get to your question. What is a Buddhist temple and why do I like to go there? Well, there are different kinds of Buddhist temples, and I don't know about them all, so I will tell you about mine. My Buddhist temple, Wat Promkunaram, is a temple where monks live to practice and teach the teachings of the Buddha and people can go there to learn them. You see, when the Buddha first started teaching people about Buddhism and there were a few monks, there weren't any Buddhist temples. The monks would live and sleep outdoors, or they would build little huts for themselves called `Kutis'. However, the Buddha became very popular and there were a lot of monks, and people wanted them to be nearby to answer questions and help solve problems (since monks are very peaceful and wise), so some rich people who believed in the Buddha's teachings asked him if they could build temples for the monks. The Buddha agreed…with certain rules for the temples and how they were to be used by the monks. At my temple, I go there to learn meditation, learn Buddhism from the monks, and to offer my service to the monks…just like when the Buddha was alive that is what laypeople would do. My temple does a lot for me so I do a lot for it. Here are some of things I do at my Buddhist temple: Paint, clean, cook, wash dishes, plant flowers, cut trees, assist/organize meditation retreats, film and edit special events, repair computers, prepare financial reports, assist with immigration issues, tutor in English, transport monks to events, donate books and Buddhist art objects, arrange college scholarships for monks, etc. Most of the people who come to the Buddhist temple come on just Sunday, but some people come to the temple a lot. I go to the temple as often as I can and help as much as I can. I have been a temple disciple of Wat Promkunaram for about eight years now. I do all of these things because it makes me happy to be helping the world. When you assist in the teaching and the encouragement of the Buddha's teachings, there is nothing more fulfilling than that…at least to me. I hope this answers your question, Janet. Take care of yourself and I hope you got that doll to work! :-) Love, James 19796 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:41am Subject: Back again Dear James, I am actually full of questions, I love asking questions. I think the new cook poem is really gross! Eating turtle and monkey meat? GROSS! Actually Chinese in the mainland do eat all those stuff but not me! The food in the poem is quite gross. Here are some of my questions: Are you really coming to Hong Kong? Can you explain more about the 8-foot-path? Is it something to memorize? Do you put your sister's picture on the alter? What does light unto ourselves mean?(In your letter to Kiana) Love Janice 19797 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:43am Subject: Janice's letter Dear Kom, Thank you for answering my question! Now I realized about the vocabulary you taught me! How big was the real Buddha? What color was the real Buddha? Does the Buddha really have its own language? Metta, Janice 19798 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:45am Subject: teachings Dear Christine, Thank you for your answer. Heidi is a French Poodle.(i think that's what you meant .) Can you please tell me more about the teachings taught by the the Buddha that could be like blessings? Are there any other teachings taught by the Buddha that you really like? metta, Hilary 19799 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 6:47am Subject: Re: Dear --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > > I read your letter number 18681 you wrote to Janice. > It's my first time writing a letter to you. I just > chose any letters you sent to different people and now > I am making a reply. Because this is my first letter, > I will introduce myself. My name is Ki Yong Kim from > Korea. I am 14 years old this year. Please introduce > yourself when you make a reply. I think this is the > longest letter I ever read. WOW. I read that you write > poems! And I read one of your poems about your car and > it was quite funny. > > I have some questions. I never knew there were > American monks! I thought Americans are all > Christians. Why do American become Buddhist monks? I > don't think I have anymore questions because you never > wrote a letter to me before and I don't have anything > more to talk about. Sorry. I will reply when you do~ > Bye > > From, Ki Yong Hi Star Kid Ki Yong! Well, very nice to meet you. Since you would like a formal introduction, here goes: My name is James Mitchell from Phoenix, Arizona, USA. I am a teacher (English, Speech, Drama, and Technology) and I am originally from Kansas City, Missouri, USA. I moved to Phoenix when I graduated college because I wanted to live in the desert. Yes, I write very long letters because I love to communicate. I believe that most people have lost the art of communication, so I try to compensate for them! ƒº just kidding. I just have a lot of things to share. I am glad that you liked my poem. Now, to answer your questions¡Kwhich is also going to take a very long letter! Yes, there are American monks, but not a whole lot of them. Being a Buddhist monk is not a tradition in America, and is actually completely foreign to the American way of thinking. The first European settlers who came to America did so to escape religious and social persecution in England. They were Christians that didn¡¦t believe in the authority of the Church of England and didn¡¦t like the power and corruption of the aristocracy found there. Some people in England had a lot of money and power because of the families they were born into, and they didn¡¦t work at all; while other people were continually poor because of the families they were born into, and they had to work for the rich people. The people who escaped this system to come to America established the idea that it wasn¡¦t the family that one was born into that was important, but how hard someone worked that should determine success. Not only that, but success from work was the proper way to worship God and to demonstrate that one was blessed. So America still has a ¡¥Work Ethic¡¦ that is deeply ingrained in the thinking of most of the people. Monks who are not supposed to work but are supposed to live off of the charity of other people go against that work ethic in a very strong way. To a great extent, Americans would view an American monk as someone who is just too lazy to work and not a person worthy of respect or support. However, the Buddha¡¦s teachings go against this way of thinking because he taught that it isn¡¦t money or success that determines a person¡¦s worth, or even spiritual enlightenment that determines a person¡¦s worth, he taught that there isn¡¦t any such thing as ¡¥a person¡¦s worth¡¦¡K.because there is nothing constant in each of us to assign a worth to. He taught that work and monasticism and charity should be based on kindness and love rather than trying to determine and build individual worth. This is often easier said than done. American monks are a very rare breed indeed because they go against two levels of wrong thinking: 1. The American Work Ethic and 2. Individual Worth. Americans become monks for different reasons. Some of those reasons might be good and some might be bad; just like the reasons anyone in any other culture might become monks. But any American who decides to become a monk has a lot of willpower and is really different. When I was going to become a monk, I got a lot of different reactions from people. Some people told me that I was too intelligent to become a monk (like monks are supposed to be stupid or something); and some people told me that I was too physically attractive to become a monk (like monks are supposed to be ugly). Only a handful of the people I know were supportive of me becoming a monk. Ultimately I didn¡¦t become a monk because I learned that I am too independent to become a monk¡KI may become a hermit instead...hehehe...just kidding¡Kor maybe not. Well, this has been a rather long letter and I don¡¦t even know if I have answered your questions. Maybe there aren¡¦t specific answers for your questions, but I hope you have a better idea now. Take care of yourself and study hard! Love, James