20000 From: Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... Hi, all - In a message dated 3/2/03 11:26:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > To me, this claim of three times normal size is an absurdity. I don't > believe it to be literally true. However, there could be a *germ* of truth > in > the claim. He might well have been quite large even at birth. Didn't his > mother die during or shortly after the birth if Siddhattha? Could this have > > been due to his being an unusually large newborn? > =========================== A bit more: I just read in a few accounts of the Buddha's birth that supposedly Queen Maya had had a dream of a baby white elephant entering her body from the side. This refers to her conception of the future Buddha. Perhaps the mention of an elephant is a reference to the great size of the newborn (with white, I suppose, signifying purity), though, of course, the reference to an elephant might only have been a metaphorical allusion to greatness. In this regard, some may find the following site interesting: http://www.uwec.edu/greider/Buddha/Buddhism.Course/student.culturetexts.'01/la ura.elephants/sampleweb.htm With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20001 From: shakti Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 9:37am Subject: Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Hi Rob, Thank you very much for your very comprehensive reply to my question. I appreciate the links and will read more when I have time. Thanks, Shakti "robmoult " wrote:Hi Shakti, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Deanna Shakti Johnson wrote: After reading the above I was reminded of what I thought I heard Ajahn Sujin say while I was in Bangkok. This is how I remember it - The experience of the five senses at contact with an object are always a neutral experience, when an object is perceived at the mind door it can be either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral and finally physical feeling is always only pleasant or unpleasant. Is this correct? I can understand the initial neutral experience as being neutral and then the mind door process that follows being pleasant, unpleasant or neutral but I am not clear about the physical being only pleasant or unpleasant. Why no neutral here??? Can you or anyone give some examples about this. There are five types of feeling that result from contact: - Painful body feeling with akusala vipaka body-consciousness - Pleasurable body feeling with kusala vipaka body-consciousness - Painful mental feeling arising with two dosa-mula cittas - Pleasant mental feeling arising with four lobha-mula cittas, one type of investigating consciousness, the smile producing citta in an Arahant, four sense-sphere wholesome cittas, four wholesome vipaka cittas (bhavanga cittas), four wholesome kiriya cittas (in Arahants) - Mental indifference arising with all other cittas Contact in eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness and tongue-consciousness cittas always produces indifferent feeling while contact in akusala body-consciousness citta produces painful feeling and contact in kusala body-consciousness citta produces pleasurable feeling. The commentary (Atthasalini, I believe) explains that body contact only produces pain or pleasure because of the "violence of the impact". The following analogy is given: Imagine that we have five anvils with a cotton ball on each. The cotton balls represent eye, ear, nose, tongue and body sensitivity. - In the first four cases, the cotton ball on the anvil is struck by another cotton ball; visible object, sound, odour and taste. In the first four cases, the anvil does cannot detect the striking and no feeling arises. - The cotton ball of body sensitivity is struck by a hammer of touch. In this case, the anvil detects the striking and the feeling is either painful or pleasurable. Feeling arising with body- consciousness can only be painful or pleasurable, never neutral. In this analogy, the anvil and the hammer are "primary rupas", while the cotton balls are "derived rupas". Contact resulting from coinciding of touch (hardness, temperature and pressure), body-sensitivity and body-consciousness will cause either a pleasurable or a painful feeling to arise. Pleasure is kusala vipaka; the result of past kusala action. Citta with pleasure is not inherently good, it is the result of something good done in the past. A sense-door citta-process in which body- consciousness experiences pleasure is invariably followed by multiple mind-door citta-processes which "think about" the experience. When the senses are not guarded, there is attachment, craving or clinging to the pleasurable experience. The pleasurable experience has finished, but the unguarded mind chases after it. Pain is akusala vipaka; the result of past akusala action. Citta with pain is not inherently bad, it is the result of something bad done in the past. A sense-door citta-process in which body- consciousness experiences pain is invariably followed by multiple mind-door citta-processes which "think about" the experience. When the senses are not guarded, there is aversion to the painful experience. The painful experience has finished, but the unguarded mind still runs away from it. All other sense-consciousness cittas arise with indifferent feeling. A sense-door citta-process is invariably followed by multiple mind- door citta-processes which "think about" the experience. When the senses are not guarded, there is attachment or aversion to the sense- door object. The sense-door experience has finished, but the unguarded mind still chases after it or runs away from it. In English, the term "feeling" is often associated with "emotions". In Abhidhamma, "emotions" are lobha-mula and dosa-mula cittas; very different from the cetasika vedana. Unlike contact arising from body-sensitivity, contact arising from eye-sensitivity, ear-sensitivity, nose-sensitivity and tongue- sensitivity will always cause an indifferent feeling to arise. Contact with mental objects (ideas) results in: - Pleasant feeling (four lobha-mula cittas, one investigating citta, Arahant smile-producing citta, twelve beautiful cittas) - Unpleasant feeling (both dosa-mula cittas) - Indifferent feeling (all remaining cittas) The kammic weight of a citta depends on the intensity of volition. Cittas with pleasant feeling (both lobha-mula cittas and beautiful cittas) are more intense and therefore of greater kammic weight than similar cittas with indifferent feeling. Weighty kusala cittas (i.e. those with pleasant feeling) are very beneficial, but what are the conditions which cause them to arise? Kusala cittas with pleasant feeling arise when there is abundance of confidence (saddha), purity of views and seeing advantage in kusala. Lobha-mula cittas can be accompanied by pleasant or indifferent feeling: - When we are excited about getting something, there is pleasant feeling - When we are clinging to existence or simply looking for a pen, there is indifferent feeling The study of feelings is very important. Feeling is the weakest link in the chain of dependent origination; the bifurcation point at which we can break the chain. The transition from Feeling (a natural, objective occurrence) to Craving (our subjective reaction to feeling) is the transition from present effect (what happens to us) to present cause (creation of kamma). There is an excellent short essay on feeling with many quotes from Suttas at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html Shakti, I hope that this answers your question on feeling. Metta, Rob M :-) 20002 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 11:18am Subject: Modesty Hi all, I am interested to learn more about the virtue of modesty. What does it mean by being modest? How and in what ways should one be modest? What is the benefit of being modest? Regards, Victor 20003 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 0:25pm Subject: Re: a quantum view of free will Hi RobM (and Christine)~ Thanks for the definitions re: soteriology. Another friend of mine wrote me a few months ago: >soteriology: > >1) a treatise on health, or the science of promoting and preserving health >2) in theology, the doctrine of salvation through Jesus Christ > >So.....if you eat the host it's good for your health???? I blame it on her that the word has been conjuring up a picture of toast and a bowl of Cheerios and not of much interest as food for thought. In my dictionary, reading up the page, I get Christine's definition, then the word Soter (Saint/Zeus) and then sot (drunkard). So, forgive me if I take it to be (more or less) the Lord's 12-step (Dep.Orig.) science of saving oneself from their own drunkeness [(self) delusion/intoxication/(delight in) Samsara] and if my speech is sometimes incoherent and rambling. . The Physician said this is an ethical universe and perfect health is Nirvana and left us this fine medicine. We are just blind drunk and haven't reached rock bottom. If a bunch of rupas come falling down and hardness hits hardness, there will be that. I may not hear it, but if the Buddha wanted to, he could have. The Divine Ear is of that nature. I believe in the Buddha's Omniscience. Or have faith, if you like. When I know things I can't explain, like the pit of my stomach telling me that that particular fire alarm and the sirens are because it is my house on fire, I'm inclined to tell myself it's just a fluke. I try to think too much and shove everything Buddha said into my own little categories when all the while, to quote Erik's friend UGKrishnamurti "For all I know, life may not run on logic." Is there a tree if no one is there to name it such? Introducing myself to this list, I claimed I was interested in the Abhidhamma. That might be true. I've never read any of it. I've read what other people say about it. When I think about it, everything I read is someone else's translation of something else. I'm actually fairly loathe to give up the Lotus Sutra with all its fairytale beauty and talk of expedient means. Language has to be the first of those, I think, so I don't insist that we agree on 'science'... how about 'art'? I'll behave myself and not quote from the LS too often here, though. You said "The Buddha was very clear what topics he wanted to talk about and what topic he refused to talk about. Please check out the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta (Mn63)". His refusal doesn't say he didn't know, just that it wasn't something I need to concern myself with... like that handful of leaves story. I think it's telling me my ideas of in/finity and eternity or space and time and existence are all wrong/conventional and it wouldn't make sense to me if he did speak of things directly from his understanding. The point the sutta drives home to me is that I can die without ever knowing. He calls them all 'views' and doesn't claim to hold any. I either want to 'renounce training' or be willing to give up my views. I also said I'd agree with you that Buddhism is phenomological, but I can't go so far as to say 'purely'. Nothing I can verbalize right now, though, sorry. And you're probably right that our conversation "would evolve into a new direction". I seem to have trouble walking a straight line. Also, I've rambled on too long and must thank our hosts for their hospitality and leave. To your health then. connie 20004 From: Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna - Looking for feedback! Hi Rob M > The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" (rupa) > as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a > concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. As an analogy, > consider how television works. What appears on the screen is not > a "flower", but rather many coloured dots that our mind constructs > into an image of a "flower". The TV set simply presents dots to us > Comment: If considering the rods and cones on the retina to be like dots of information, this makes sense. What is actually seen is light. Experience is the result of contact. It seems that perceptions of objects (in the distance) are interpretations of those dots. (Howard's comment that perceptions arise as a "snap shot" seems supported by the notion in abhidhamma materials that perception is a universal mental factors and accompanies all consciousness.) However, it seems that perceptions arise more from a process and the suttas seem to indicate that as well. Perhaps it depends on the "type" or complexity of perception. > > are "short-term" memories, available to provide continuity, but not > used for "long-term memory. It would appear that long-term memories > are tied to naming and this is why we cannot remember our early > Comment: Interesting observation you make! Basically, at that age a human has not yet "learned" how to use the mind so as to store memories. > he Suttas explain that sanna creates concepts. We have seen that > the sense-door citta process a small, elemental bit of information > and the subsequent mind-door citta processes process this into > increasingly complex concepts: > - Dots --> Blocks of colour --> Shapes --> Comment: This seems real solid. Just to "knit-pick" though, perhaps the word create is not appropriate and "generate" or "form a foundation for" would be better. > This stage of judgment is what completes the > link between feeling and craving in dependent origination. > > Craving is conditioned by pleasant feeling associated with concepts. > Visible objects condition neutral feeling and therefore do not > condition craving directly. Pleasant feeling is associated with > current concepts when sanna "remembers" past concepts and the > associated pleasant feeling. Comment A: Judgement or concepts that either intervene or associate between feeling and craving are not necessarily links between the two. The Buddha says: due to feeling, craving arises. He does not say that due to feeling and judgements /concepts, craving arises. I think feeling and craving should be seen as direct links. In fact, it is more likely that due to craving --> judgements and concepts arise. (As forms of clinging.) Craving is the source for mental exploration that result in judgements and concepts that continue to seek out new pleasures. Comment B: Rob M, the above was my initial reaction but after reading again below and above, I think you are right also. I think both are happening depending on the conditions. I tend to look at things from an evolutionary point of view. If extremely simple rudimentary creatures are thought of, they are not forming judgements or concepts most likely. Yet I suspect they have pleasant feeling and craving which is what makes them grasp after existence. In the case of more highly evolved creatures, concepts and judgements are "extra factors" to be considered. Yet, I cannot remember any instance of the Buddha saying that: due to concepts and judgements --> craving arises. I don't think the Honeyball is saying that. "What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one obsesses." I suspect the craving process is accompanying and propagating the -- perceiving, thinking about, and obsession -- being mentioned here. > This progression is described in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): > > Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > is feeling. > > What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > thinks about. What one thinks about, that one obsesses. > > What obsesses one is the cause perceptions and notions tinged by > obsession that beset a man with respect to past, future and present > forms cognizable though the eye. > > > ccording to the Suttas, unwholesome sanna conditions the arising of > views (such as the personality view, sakaya-ditthi, based on > ignorance), sorrow and obsession. > > Sanna can also be wholesome (kusala) when it is geared towards the > recognition of elements essential for liberation. When înanda > reported that a monk was sick, the Buddha told înanda to recite > the "ten sanna" in front of the monk to condition kusala thoughts in > the monk. The ten sanna are: > - The recognition of impermanence (aniccasanna) > - The recognition of selflessness (anattasanna) > - The recognition of unpleasantness (asubhasanna) > - The recognition of danger (Adinavasanna) > - The recognition of abandoning (pahanasanna) > - The recognition of dispassion (viragasanna) > - The recognition of cessation (nirodhasanna) > - The recognition of disenchantment with the entire world > (sabbaloke anabhiratasanna) > - The recognition of impermanence in reference to all compounded > things (sabbe sankharesu aniccasanna) > - The mindfulness of breathing (Anapanasati) > > Just as sanna is between feeling (vedana) and craving (taöha) in the > chain of dependent origination, whenever the five aggregates are > listed, sanna is always listed between feeling and sankhara > (sankhara includes craving). Comment: Is this last a true statement? Is sanna mentioned in the 12 Fold Chain? > ================ > > Looking forward to your feedback! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > Let me know what you think Rob M. Thanks. TG 20005 From: Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 3:52pm Subject: Way 57, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear Comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 73 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Thus like the elder Maha Naga dweller in the Black Creeper Pavilion and like the bhikkhus who went into rainy season at the Galamba Ford Monastery, the bhikkhu (who does the observance of carrying forth and carrying back the subject of meditation) raises his foot only with mind yoked to the thought of meditation. Having reached the neighbourhood of the village, filled the mouth with a draught of water, and looked at the streets, he enters the street where there are no quarrelsome drunkards, gamesters and such folk or where there are no restive elephants, horses and the like. There, wandering for alms, he does not go speedily like one in a great hurry since there is no ascetic practice of begging food, speedily. He goes, rather, having become motionless, like a water cart on uneven ground. Entering into each house in order, spending such time as is suitable for concluding whether there is or not the tendency to offer alms (on the part of the occupants of each house), he receives alms, and comes to the inner village, outer village or even to the monastery. There he seats himself in a place pleasant and good (proper), attends to the thought of meditation with the setting up of the perception of loathsomeness in food, and reflects by way of the similes of axle-greasing, applying ointment to ulcer and feeding on own child's flesh, and eats the food fully followed with awareness of the eight attributes, (and) not for sport, intoxication, adornment or the filling up of those places of his body that have a deficiency of flesh. And he, having eaten, washes. Then he rests for a while the body that is tired with the business of eating. He attends to just the thought of meditation, in the time after eating as in the time before eating, and in the last watch of the night as in the first watch. This person is called one who carries forth and carries back the subject of meditation. The person who fulfills this observance of one who carries forth and carries back, called the carrying forth (of the thought of meditation) when going out for alms and the bringing back (of the thought of meditation) when returning from the alms-round, reaches Arahantship even in the period of youth (i.e., early age or the first stage of life), if he is possessed of the sufficing condition, the wherewithal to accomplish the destruction of ignorance and its defilements. If he fails to reach Arahantship, in early age, then he reaches it in middle age; if he fails in middle age, then at the time of death; if he fails at the time of death, then, after becoming a deva; if he fails as a deva, then, at a time when no Buddha has appeared on earth, he is born as a man and realizes the truth as a Buddha who is not able to communicate the truth to others; and if he fails to realize the truth in that way, then, immediately on meeting a Fully Enlightened Buddha he becomes a person who intuits quickly like the elder Bahiya Daruciriya, or a greatly wise one like the elder Sariputta, or one of great psychic power like the elder Mogallana the Great, or an exponent of ascetic practice like the elder Kassapa the Great, or one endowed with clairvoyant power like the elder Anuruddha, or an expert in discipline like the elder Upali or an expounder of the Dhamma like the elder Punna Mantaniputta, or a forest dweller like the elder Revata, or one of great learning like the elder Ananda, or one desirous of training like the elder Rahula, the Buddha's son. 20006 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 7:25pm Subject: Re: preliminary practice Dear Connie, Thanks for your letter, I was happy to read it. Didn’t get a chance to be at the computer before this. You wrote: Thank you. I didn’t come up with a way to take the original phrase I wondered about out of context and still say where it came from. I also thought it would apply to other situations. When I first read the phrase ‘deliberate preliminary practice’, I thought it might even refer to reading and thinking about Dhamma. Sukin: Actually I am quite impressed with your apparent lack of mana, you go straight to the point, I think it is good accumulations for dhamma study;-). Does ‘reading and thinking about Dhamma’ count as ‘deliberate preliminary practice’? I think any activity can, if it is done without the understanding about conditions and anatta, and if it is seen as an activity to be performed ritualistically in connection to realizing the Truth. Pariyatti is not just the external activity of reading and listening. Many conditions can lead one to do this, mostly it can be Lobha and wrong view. But not only is chanda accompanied by a level of panna a more useful motivation, but pariyatti would be the actual moment of understanding on the intellectual level. What would condition this moment? Not the activity of reading and listening itself, but the right accumulations and I believe, kamma. So a person may learn the teachings by heart, but if he does not understand it, then it is not pariyatti I think. Connie: I like that “developing ignoranceâ€? idea. Hadn’t ever thought of it that way. Sukin: I think each dhamma that arises conditions more of the same as tendency. In a day, in my own case, it is almost all the time Lobha, dosa and moha. But when I consider dhamma, at least here I hope my views get progressively made more right. I find it a waste that a person comes upon Dhamma and has a wrong understanding about it. Particularly I find annoying is the fact that some people are taught to observe such things as bodily postures; sitting rupa, standing rupa etc., as though these existed. They are in reality being taught to take for real what is only concept. There is no atta, but they are being encouraged to increase atta-sanna. Connie: I agree & having said that, also admit that my new year’s resolution was to be more respectful and appreciative... which I suppose could be considered trying to cultivate an offshoot of metta. I wasn’t really thinking about that at the time. Just thought I might enjoy myself more. Sukin: I would not consider this seriously wrong as would have been were it with the view that Buddha taught it and encouraged it. Besides at the moment of making the resolution, if it is done with panna, I think it can be positive on the accumulations. ;-) We all have many accumulated wrong views and ignorance, but like I said above, when it comes to studying the Dhamma, hopefully we don’t misunderstand this. Since only the correct understanding of the Buddha’s teaching can liberate us, not sitting cross-legged with eyes closed! Connie: If nothing else, I seem to pay more attention to the thoughts I have about people I see on the street, or even noticing such things as â€?I don’t like that shade of greenâ€?... of course, it’s a lot of thinking and more concepts... even when I tell myself “dosaâ€? or “manaâ€? with = or without claiming it as mine. I suppose I could even be developing more of a sense of self now that I think about it. Sukin: This is almost how my own mind works ï?Š. In my case however, it happens too rarely, I like to blame this on ‘circumstance’, but that would be wrong ï?Œ. And I don’t worry too much about the ‘sense of self’, because even this can be observed and seen as conditioned. Connie: S: This is why according to my understanding, any development along the path of buddhadhamma, hinges upon the distinction between concept and reality. And that distinction can only start with the intellectual knowledge of the Teachings. ======== C: Not to disagree, but I wonder if there isn’t a level of emotional understanding as well. One reads the word “joyâ€? a lot... even equanimity would seem to be an emotional balance. Sukin: I don’t think that there is any such thing as emotional understanding. There can be understanding accompanied by certain feelings. But I think what you may be referring to, is the difference when there is verbalization of what is understood and when the understanding seem to be without words. Ultimately the moment of understanding does not require a label, labels are for communication and for further development of intellectual understanding. But many can be mistaken to believe that ‘silent knowing’ is real knowing when in reality, lobha is mistaken for sati. And one is unaware of the papanca moving with great force as undercurrent. Besides most prematurely dismiss descriptions of reality as being superfluous, having come to the conclusion by logical deduction, not by actual experience of dhamma. I think for most of us not only the words, but repeated exposure to the Teachings is crucial. After all concept-forming is inevitable, and even a deaf and dumb person repeatedly forms them all the time. Isn’t it then good to be exposed to the correct interpretation of ‘reality’ as in the Tipitaka so as to at least be given the chance to not take our own views too seriously? And being exposed to Buddhadhamma, doesn’t it also then protect us from being influenced by the teachings of other religions and philosophies? Left to our own device, I think we keep spinning our own theories of consciousness as can be seen in the hundreds of theories available today, both in the east and the west. I believe that we all are easy prey to “explanationsâ€?, I know that I am, whether it be our own conclusions or that of recognized and established teachings. The Buddha was not so, this is why he was not satisfied, and in the end he came upon the Truth. But of course this is all about accumulated understanding and other parami through countless lifetimes ;-/. Connie: I don’t know what sacchayana is. Or why my friends call me patient. Sukin: Perhaps if I corrected my spelling to sacchannana? The thing about this which attracts me is that it implies a stage of understanding where one sees that mere intellectualizing and ‘thinking about’ dhamma is different from the study of realities arising now. One is firm about the priority given to arising dhamma and is not attracted by explanations about it. This can only happen when one has had some practical experience with Satipatthana. From then on much experience with satipatthana and firm understanding of nama and rupa would qualify for the next stage of kicchannana. And finally when enlightenment is reached, it would be katannana, I think. This is another long post; I hope I haven’t taken too much advantage of your patience ;-). Hear from you. Metta, Sukin. 20007 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 1:14am Subject: Anatta -no control( was Comfort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: Dear Swee boon, Thanks for continuing this discussion, a very useful one. > Hi RobertK, Robert: Thein Nyun: "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > > deed is about to be performed and > > 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed > to > > its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > > 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary > > characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted > belief > > in their existence. >------------ > SW: I do not understand how "conceit" and "personality belief" can be > called ideas. I know that "conceit" is a cetasika and not an idea. I > know that "personality belief" is a cetasika and not an idea. How > are "effort" and "care" imaginary characteristics? I don't think my > effort and care to write you this letter is an imaginery > characteristic. It is as real as the khandas as it can be. I don't > think the effort and care expended by the Buddha to teach his Ø Disciples is an imaginary characteristic. ----------------------- _____________ When studying the Dhamma a prime requisite is to understand the difference between concept and reality (paramattha dhamma) . In the case you mention above "I don't think my effort and care to write you this letter is an imaginary characteristic" you are talking about a long chain of events, moments. The story – writing a letter – is a concept. Even in one second so many dhammas have arisen and passed away. When we talk about long periods like writing a letter it is countless . During the writing effort arose and fell away – and each moment was different from the other- but because each moment also is one of the conditions (among many ) for the next this is not fully realised. There may have been some moments with kusala effort , some without, some with weak concentration – (right or wrong) some with stronger. Moments of energy, moments of slightly less energy: and all usually taken as `my' energy. Even when we talk about one brief moment this is a very complex thing – many different conditions needed. Without hearing the dhamma we imagine "we" are controlling everything, not understanding the intricate conditions that make up each moment. Take the act of seeing while you were writing the letter. So many different moments of seeing and each moment conditioned: "firstly the eye element is a condition in six ways – namely, dissociation, prenascence, presence, non-disapearance, support, and faculty for the eye-consciouness (cakkhu vinnana) element. The visible object is a condition in four ways , namely, prenascent, presence, non-disapearance, and object for the eye- consciousness element…."visuddhimagga xv40 Then following that flash of seeing there are many mental processes similarly conditioned by several factors, none of which are in the control of anyone. And these conditioning factors are all likewise conditioned by many conditions…. Because of ignorance of this the illusion of beings and self, like actors in an endless play, continues. We can understand conceptually how this is by looking at bodily functions- say the way the body heals cuts– very complex , and if even one condition is not present then infection can arise – and so other complex conditions are needed to heal. Nama- mentality is more subtle than rupa and more complex : "It would be better for the unlearned worldling to regard this body, built up of the four elements, as his self, rather than the mind. For it is evident that this body may last for a year, for two years, for three years, four, five, or ten years, or even a hundred years and more; but that which is called thought, or mind, or consciousness, is continuously, during day and night, arising as one thing, and passing away as another thing." S. XII. 62 ============================ > > Robert: because of continuity there is a belief, a vipallasa, > perversion > > of perception, that believes there is somewhere , somehow a > controller > > of the whole complex. > ---------------------------------- >SW: I do not understand how this continuity can result in "personality > belief". It it because of this continuity that magga and then phala > arises. It is because of this continuity that the Noble Eightfold > Path can be perfected. If it is because of this continuity that > there arises "personality belief", then there can be no escape from samsara. The Buddha could not rightly proclaim his Lion's Roar. ----------------------------------------------- "When continuity is disrupted by discerning rise and fall, the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent in its true nature." (visuddhimagga xxi4) Of course continuity is only one aspect of why it is hard to discern the tilakkhana. > -------------------------------- SW:What is the actual root cause of "personality belief"? __________-------------------------- This is like asking what is the root cause of ignorance. No beginning is discerned to the paticasamuppada, the wheel of dependent origination) but personality belief is uprooted gradually by seeing the actual characteristics of the different dhammas: "when the resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements (dhatus), the characteristic of not-self become apparent in its true nature: Visuddhimagga xx15 This `being' is simply a puppet with manifold parts – all coming together in different combinations – lasting for an instant and then falling away again. Because the conditions that make up each moment are often similar "we" look and feel somewhat the same from moment to moment – and this is one aspect of how continuity deludes. ""Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness." Visuddhimagga xviii31 The conditions that make up what we think of as a human being are of course more complex than a marionette, and hence more difficult to fathom. The first steps, of this very long untanglement, are about identifying, with right wisdom, the various characteristics of the different phenomena that comprise this `being' this manisfestion of paticcasamuppada. Usually we think "I'm interested or bored or excited or calm, or sad or happy or wise or confused or making effort or being negligent. But there are only different elements performing different functions - and they have no agenda: "[The] uninterestedness becomes evident to him though seeing rise and fall according to condition owing to his discovery of the inability of states to have mastery exercised over them. Then he more thoroughly abandons the self view"visuddhimagga xx102 The characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through seeing rise according to conditions owing to his discovery that states have no curiosity and have their existence depending upon conditions" xx102 "All the formed bases(eye base, ear base, tongue base etc) should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery being exercisable over them since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future. "XV15 I think everyone has no problem in accepting that there is no control over the eye or ear base. But the same applies also to the other elements which are all equally conditioned – whether they be nama or rupa. They often talk about dhatus (elements) in the suttas. What does it mean – element? There are several definitions including this:. "Element is a term for what is soulesss, xv22 and "They are only mere sortings out of suffering because no mastery is exercisable over them"visuddimagga xv20 Visuddhimagga XX83 "there is removal of false view in one who sees thus: "If formations were self it would be right to take them as self; but being not-self they are taken as self. Therefore they are not self in the sense of no power being exercisable over them; they are impermanent in the sense of non-existence after having come to be; they are painful in the sense of oppression by rise and fall" ______________________________ > > >Robert: > there are only elements arising and ceasing and performing their > many > > different functions which - like a brilliant puppet show - delude > one > into thinking there is some special element behind it all. _________________ > >SW: Is it the case that the arising and ceasing of the elements > performing their different functions the actual root cause of this > delusion? --------------------------------------- It is not seeing the actual arising and ceasing that allows the delusion to continue. ------------------------------- ----------------- > > >Robert: He writes that in fact all elements, including cetana disapear so > > fast: "The elements..arise and cease within a very short > > time. In the wink of an eye or a flash of lightning the mental > > elements arise and cease a trillion times.`This is just an > > estimate . the subcommentary takes an even higher figure....." > ________________________________________ > SW: If the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out > the "I can perform" or "I can feel", then I do not see how > these can survive in the first place. For without the elements, there cannot be the . ____________________________________________- The ideas are the shadows of what is really there. I recently quoted a letter Kom wrote which helps to explain this: ""Before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), and (2) |processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we can deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of cittas) to condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara- javana | vithi, which actually experience paramatha aramana, for the citta to | start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), experiencing the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see an unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then we may attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of taking paramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, namable concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on to."endquote I can write more about this if you wish. > _____________ > > >Robert: . In the Atthasalini it notes that > the monks who > > are reciters of the suttanta (the second basket which includes the 5 nikayas) > > may come to wrong view because in the suttas they often talk about beings > > and things. In reality there are simply dhammas arising and > passing, > > utterly conditioned. > _____ > SW: It seems that the Buddha liked to perform linguistic acrobatics... > really? Isn't the Buddha speaking in "conventional language" when he > said in Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59: > > And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let > MY consciousness be thus. Let MY consciousness not be thus.' > > The Buddha is basically performing linguistic acrobatics all over > the Suttas. What gives? ========================== ______________________ Important to know when conventional speech(vohara vacca) is being used: "as with the assembly of parts the word chariot is countenanced, So, when the aggregates are present, A being: is said in common usage."(samyutta I, 135) These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. The suttas often use such words as MY, and we can too, but we need to know that they are mere concepts. "Such forms as woman or man are local forms of speech. ..In those who have not fully understood what a physical base is there comes to be the misinterpretation "this is really a woman.."But since this is mere concept, which depends on states made to occur in such ans such a wise , one who sees and knows the dependent origination does not interpret it as ultimate meaning"Note 4 visud. vii (pm) _______________________________ ________________________ >SW: The five aggregates can never be willed not to dissolute. This is an > impossiblity. > > Yet, to suit your own agenda of "no control", you have perversed the > very meaning of this statement. > _____________ > > > Robert:The literal translation of the Anatta lakkhana sutta is "the > characteristic > > of not-self" and that characteristic is no control. > > ""The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over > > them is the characteristic of no-self.""Sammohavinodani>>> > _______________________ >SW: Sammohavinodani (whatever that is, I have not come across this funny > name) did not say "characteristic of no control". That is your own Ø extrapolation. ___________ Yes, I shortened it , I think the meaning remains the same. The sammohavinodani is the commentary to the second book of the Abhidhamma. Anyway for this letter I use the visuddhimagga as I know most members have a copy. _____________________________________ > >SW: The statement "the mode of insusceptibility to having power > exercised over them" must be understood in the context of what was > said. And what did Sarah say? > > For the fully Englightened One, when teaching the characteristic of > no-self, teaches it by means of the impermanent, or by means of > suffering, or by means of (both) the impermanent and suffering." > > > This means that there can be no power that can be exercised over the > impermanent and dukkha elements such that they become permanent and > non-dukkha. This is an impossibility. In reference to this was this > statement uttered. This impossibility manifests the characterisitc Ø of no-self. Ø _____________ The characteristic of anatta is "the insusceptibilty of having power exercised over them" (no control, for short). This is so difficult to see and to help the Buddha teaches it by means of impermanence or by means of suffering. The same dhammas- all elements (except nibbana) have the same Tilakkhana of aniccum ,dukkhum and anatta (nibana only has the last). So by properly understanding either impermanence or dukkha one also can understand anatta. It is also understood by conditionality. There is much more to be said on all this – a topic which we can never hear enough of – but as this letter is already long I will stop for now. RobertK 20008 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Kom and Jim) - > > Not to be offensive, but merely to be a bit skeptical of matters > such > as this: ..... I’m sceptical too. Rest assured, in the 3 years of so that you've been posting very regularly on DSG, I've never known you be in the least bit offensive, either of the Buddha’s teachings, of any members or of any contrary views and understandings;-) I think it’s a bit baffling to us all....one of those somewhat academic points that may be clarified when someone comes across some detail unexpectedly. Another detail in it that puzzles me is the calculation of the hattha. According to Horner, the measurement (elbow to tip of middle finger) works out at 15”. Well, for me (and it would have been about the same for Miss Horner) that’s about correct. But then, I’m small even by modern dwarf sizes;-) It would be twice that length of someone of 10’ and so on. Hmmm....time for me to put it aside. ..... I wonder whether Siddhattha was this way only after becoming > the > Buddha or whether he was this gigantic size prior to the conception of > Rahula! > To me, this claim of three times normal size is an absurdity. I > don't > believe it to be literally true. However, there could be a *germ* of > truth in > the claim. He might well have been quite large even at birth. Didn't his > > mother die during or shortly after the birth if Siddhattha? Could this > have > been due to his being an unusually large newborn? ..... I don’t think this was the reason for her death. Afew quotes from “The Clarifier of Sweet Meaning”, comy to “Buddhavamsa”, PTS ch XXVI, Gotama: 1.“...He thought , “A Buddha’s mother is not a wanton or a drunkard. On the contrary, for a hundred thousand eons she has fulfilled the perfections; never since her birth has she torn the five moreal habits. And this queen named Mahamaya is such a one. She shall be my mother”. And then, thinking what would be the extent of her life-span, he saw it would be ten months and seven days.” 2.“...but as the womb where a Bodhisatta has dwelt is like the interior of a cetiya and can be neither made use of nor occupied by another, so the bodhisatta’s mother, having done her (kammic) time, was reborn in Tusita city a week after the bodhisatta was born”. 3.related to size of the baby?? As soon as he was born: “When he had surveyed the ten quarters thus, not seeing one like himself he tool seven strides facing northward. As he was walking on the ground thus, he did not go through the sky, he went like an unclothed (ascetic), not like one who was clothed, and he went LIKE A BOY, not as one who was in his sixteenth year; but, to the populace HE WAS WALKING AS THOUGH THROUGH THE SKY AND AS THOUGH HE WERE DECKT OUT AND ADORNED AND AS THOUGH HE WERE IN HIS SIXTEENTH YEAR. Then, at the seventh step he stood still, and at once sending forth his noble voice, he roared the lion’s roar, “I am the highest in the world.” “ Thanks for your interest and a math professor may be just what we need here with all the measurements;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Maybe the Buddha could make himself appear normal size as appropriate or is that a stretch?? ====== 20009 From: Star Kid Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 1:42am Subject: mindfulness Dear Kom, Thank You for explaining to me about the mindfulness word. Do you ever celebrate Chinese New Year? Does every Buddist believe that mindfulness is essential to them? Was the real Buddha Gold ? Is mindfulness always good or sometimes bad as well? Metta, Janice 20010 From: Star Kid Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 1:45am Subject: temples Hi James, You know you said about the temple you go to.Is there anything like going to the temple every Sunday? So Buddhists are really different to both Christians and Jews, where they sing to thank for the blessing or anything similar. You said that said people go to the temple to meditate. When you meditate what do you have in mind? Thanks for the poems! Metta Hilary 20011 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... --- Just a point; occasionally either anuruddha or nanda , I forget which, were mistaken as the Buddha from a distance because they were about the same height - both tall and well proportioned -according to a commentary I read. robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Kom and Jim) - > > > > Not to be offensive, but merely to be a bit skeptical of matters > > such > > as this: > ..... > I'm sceptical too. Rest assured, in the 3 years of so that you've been > posting very regularly on DSG, I've never known you be in the least bit > offensive, either of the Buddha's teachings, of any members or of any > contrary views and understandings;-) > > I think it's a bit baffling to us all....one of those somewhat academic > points that may be clarified when someone comes across some detail > unexpectedly. > > Another detail in it that puzzles me is the calculation of the hattha. > According to Horner, the measurement (elbow to tip of middle finger) works > out at 15". Well, for me (and it would have been about the same for Miss > Horner) that's about correct. But then, I'm small even by modern dwarf > sizes;-) It would be twice that length of someone of 10' and so on. > Hmmm....time for me to put it aside. > ..... > I wonder whether Siddhattha was this way only after becoming > > the > > Buddha or whether he was this gigantic size prior to the conception of > > Rahula! > > To me, this claim of three times normal size is an absurdity. I > > don't > > believe it to be literally true. However, there could be a *germ* of > > truth in > > the claim. He might well have been quite large even at birth. Didn't his > > > > mother die during or shortly after the birth if Siddhattha? Could this > > have > > been due to his being an unusually large newborn? > ..... > I don't think this was the reason for her death. > > Afew quotes from "The Clarifier of Sweet Meaning", comy to "Buddhavamsa", > PTS ch XXVI, Gotama: > > 1."...He thought , "A Buddha's mother is not > a wanton or a drunkard. On the contrary, for a hundred thousand eons she > has fulfilled the perfections; never since her birth has she torn the > five moreal habits. And this queen named Mahamaya is such a one. She > shall be my mother". And then, thinking what would be the extent of her > life-span, he saw it would be ten months and seven days." > > 2."...but as the womb where a Bodhisatta has dwelt is like the interior of > a cetiya and can be neither made use of nor occupied by another, so the > bodhisatta's mother, having done her (kammic) time, was reborn in Tusita > city a week after the bodhisatta was born". > > 3.related to size of the baby?? As soon as he was born: > > "When he had surveyed the ten quarters thus, not seeing one like himself > he tool seven strides facing northward. As he was walking on the ground > thus, he did not go through the sky, he went like an unclothed (ascetic), > not like one who was clothed, and he went LIKE A BOY, not as one who was > in his sixteenth year; but, to the populace HE WAS WALKING AS THOUGH > THROUGH THE SKY AND AS THOUGH HE WERE DECKT OUT AND ADORNED AND AS THOUGH > HE WERE IN HIS SIXTEENTH YEAR. Then, at the seventh step he stood still, > and at once sending forth his noble voice, he roared the lion's roar, "I > am the highest in the world." " > > Thanks for your interest and a math professor may be just what we need > here with all the measurements;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s Maybe the Buddha could make himself appear normal size as appropriate > or is that a stretch?? > ====== 20012 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 3:15am Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Hello Rob M, You wrote; ---------- > I think that eye-door consciousness, ear-door consciousness, nose-door consciousness and tongue-door consciousness is always accompanied by neutral feeling. It doesn't matter if it is akusala eye-door consciousness (the result of past akusala javana) or kusala eye-door consciousness (the result of past kusala javana). > ------------- Yes, that's what I thought. Perhaps my referring to all vipaka cittas as either pleasant or unpleasant experiences, gave the impression that I was disagreeing. Do you see them that way, or does an accompanying neutral feeling prevent a kusala eye-door vipaka citta from being regarded as pleasant? ---------- > My recent post has lots more details (please let me know if you find any mistakes). > ------------ If there were any mistakes, I'm sure they'd be too technical for me to pick out, but thanks for asking :-) ------------- > You might find my recent post on Sanna interesting as it does touch on feelings arising at the mind door rather than at the sense door. > ------------- I've always found sanna a difficult topic and haven't bothered with it much. That was until Andrew assigned me a question on memory to discuss at a meeting this weekend. So I was pleased to read that post, thank you. The question of what visible object looks like -- whether it's a coloured pixel or more like a single frame in a movie film -- has been brought up before. Most memorably, Nina said that this is thinking, not seeing. (I must look for that post in my dsg scrap book, it was very good.) She advised us that, "visible object is what appears at the eye, that is all." Kind regards, Ken H 20013 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Connie - > > In a message dated 2/17/03 5:07:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, > nichicon@h... writes: > > > I'm not sure what you mean by a causal connection between kamma > and > > corresponding vipaka. Are you saying there should be some > recognizable > > linear relationship? ... > ======================== > I realize that I didn't directly answer this question in my > previous > reply. What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the > four main > characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and > as > reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), > necessity > (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or > interdependence (idappaccayata). ... I would like to follow up on these 4 characteristics of a realtionship that constititute a causal connection (very interesting), but I've not had any luck finding the sutta. Is there any other information you can give about it? Thanks. Jon > .... It is a relation of the general form of > dependent origination: > > When there is this, that is. > With the arising of this, that arises. > When this is not, neither is that. > With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] > > Causality in this sense does not require some hidden "causal > power", > but only the objectivity, necessity, invariability, and > conditionality of the > relationship between the conditions and their result. > > With metta, > Howard 20014 From: Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 0:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/3/03 4:37:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Maybe the Buddha could make himself appear normal size as appropriate > or is that a stretch?? > ===================== Pun intended? ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20015 From: Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi, Jon - I've been doing an internet search, but no luck yet. Sorry. (I will continue to search.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/3/03 6:26:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi again, Connie - > > > >In a message dated 2/17/03 5:07:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >nichicon@h... writes: > > > >>I'm not sure what you mean by a causal connection between kamma > >and > >>corresponding vipaka. Are you saying there should be some > >recognizable > >>linear relationship? ... > >======================== > > I realize that I didn't directly answer this question in my > >previous > >reply. What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the > >four main > >characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and > >as > >reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), > >necessity > >(avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or > >interdependence (idappaccayata). ... > > I would like to follow up on these 4 characteristics of a > realtionship that constititute a causal connection (very > interesting), but I've not had any luck finding the sutta. Is there > any other information you can give about it? Thanks. > > Jon > > > .... It is a relation of the general form of > >dependent origination: > > > > When there is this, that is. > > With the arising of this, that arises. > > When this is not, neither is that. > > With the cessation of this, that ceases. [S.II.28,65] > > > > Causality in this sense does not require some hidden "causal > >power", > >but only the objectivity, necessity, invariability, and > >conditionality of the > >relationship between the conditions and their result. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20016 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) (Sorry if I sent this before--I just found it apparently 'unsent' in my 'outbox'). Hi Jon, Sarah Et Al., I do understand the difference between kamma (cetanaa) and kamma-patha in a general way--though I'm not crystal clear on where to draw the line (I suspect it may be naturally a little blurred). My interest in lobha in this context is because of its basic position as one of the three unwholesome roots. In the context of lobha-dosa-moha, lobha has always seemed to me to include all forms of lobha including all those mentioned in Htoo Naing's recent reminder as well as kaama and maybe others. Otherwise, why not 'kaama-dosa-moha' or raaga-dosa-moha'? Though I do recall instances in the discourses of failure of attainment (of nirodha) resulting from akusala vipaaka (resulting in turn from akusala kamma-patha), it seems to me that everyday attachments and aversions (and identification with them), and their perpetual, moment-to-moment reinforcement (by volitional action) are far more central to the most central problem of all--conditioned origination. (I'm not sure that this view is supportable from the texts). To put it another way, it seems to me that the main issue isn't kusala vs. akusala, but rebirth vs. cessation. Kusala kamma-patha leads to pleasant rebirth/sense impingement; pa~n~naa leads to nibbaana. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) > Mike > > Great to have you back again :-)), :-)). I hope you don't mind me > jumping in here. > > Kamma is a vast and complex subject, which I do not pretend to even > partly grasp (I mean of course at an intellectual level). > > However, I believe we need to distinguish between the moments of > kusala/akusala volition that constitute 'completed action' or > 'courses of action' (kamma patha) and those moments of kusala/akusala > volition that are not of that strength or nature but simply > accumulate as a tendency. > > While it's true that the latter may play a part in our committing > more of the former at some time in the future, even this is not > necessarily so with all instances of akusala volition. For example, > the attachment that motivates our normal living activities (eating, > brushing teeth, going to work etc) is not regarded as leading us in > the direction of committing more akusala kamma patha. If I remember > correctly, this class of attachment is referred to somewhere in the > teachings as attachment that is 'to be followed' (perhaps someone > will remember the source, it has been quoted on-list before). Put > another way, this akusala volition simply does not involve the degree > of danger that other akusala volition does. > > In addition to that, even among the akusala volition that constitutes > akusala kamma patha, some plays only a supporting role, and so is > dependent for its efficacy on other (more weighty) kamma coming to > fruition. > > I have pasted below some extracts from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist > Dictionary that might be of interest. > > Jon > > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary > A. Kamma-patha > <<< > kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds > of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > - 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > - 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > - 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. > II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): > - 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual > intercourse; > - 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, > foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; > - 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. > > Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of > defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the > hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms > of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute > 'courses of action'. > >>> > > B. Kamma > <<< > kamma: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the wholesome and > unwholesome volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetaná) and their > concomitant mental factors, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny > of beings. > These karmical volitions (kamma cetaná) become manifest as wholesome > or unwholesome actions by body (káya-kamma), speech (vací-kamma) and > mind (mano-kamma). > .. .. .. > With regard to their functions one distinguishes: > 1. regenerative (or productive) karma (janaka-kamma), > 2. supportive (or consolidating) karma (upatthambhaka-kamma), > 3. counteractive (suppressive or frustrating) karma > (upapílaka-kamma), > 4. destructive (or supplanting) karma (upaghátaka- or > upacchedaka-kamma). > (1) produces the 5 groups of existence (corporeality, feeling, > perception, mental formations, consciousness) at rebirth as well as > during life-continuity. > (2) does not produce karma-results but is only able to maintain the > already produced karma-results. > (3) counteracts or suppresses the karma-results. > (4) destroys the influence of a weaker karma and effects only its own > result. > >>> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:26 AM > > > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for you comments, > > "If we like our food or laugh, there is no akusala kamma. We just > discussed this again with A. Sujin. If we would think that laughing > brings an unpleasant result, how unnatural our life would be. It > could cause lots of scruples to people." > > If thought, speech or action with regard to a pleasant impingement > (of thought of flavor e.g.) is conditioned by attachment to the > pleasant feeling--that is, tending to continue or repeat the > impingement--this is perfectly natural but still akusala, I think, > however subtle. (I mean that that volition does accumulate as > akusala kamma and as a condition for > future akusala kamma). > > In fact I think most akusala is 'perfectly natural' and learning to > see the danger in it (especially in lobha) is rather un-natural. > Naturally, people like to think that their everday pleasures and > attachments are harmless, but this is not borne out by my (obviously > very limited) understanding of Buddhadhamma. > > Am I missing or miscontruing something? Thanks in advance... > > mike 20017 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... Just a note: Seems to me that whether we're talking about these odd descriptions of the Buddha, minced and reconstituted arahats flying through the air, talking animals or terrorists (American, Arab or whatever)--whether 'myth' or 'reality', are all papa~nca--but moments of feeling, thought, various emotions etc. with regard to the papa~nca are all potentially bases of insight. My apologies if I'm just restating the obvious. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: mailto:rjkjp1 wrote: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Kom and Jim) - > > > > Not to be offensive, but merely to be a bit skeptical of matters > > such > > as this: > ..... > I'm sceptical too. Rest assured, in the 3 years of so that you've been > posting very regularly on DSG, I've never known you be in the least bit > offensive, either of the Buddha's teachings, of any members or of any > contrary views and understandings;-) > > I think it's a bit baffling to us all....one of those somewhat academic > points that may be clarified when someone comes across some detail > unexpectedly. > > Another detail in it that puzzles me is the calculation of the hattha. > According to Horner, the measurement (elbow to tip of middle finger) works > out at 15". Well, for me (and it would have been about the same for Miss > Horner) that's about correct. But then, I'm small even by modern dwarf > sizes;-) It would be twice that length of someone of 10' and so on. > Hmmm....time for me to put it aside. > ..... > I wonder whether Siddhattha was this way only after becoming > > the > > Buddha or whether he was this gigantic size prior to the conception of > > Rahula! > > To me, this claim of three times normal size is an absurdity. I > > don't > > believe it to be literally true. However, there could be a *germ* of > > truth in > > the claim. He might well have been quite large even at birth. Didn't his > > > > mother die during or shortly after the birth if Siddhattha? Could this > > have > > been due to his being an unusually large newborn? > ..... > I don't think this was the reason for her death. > > Afew quotes from "The Clarifier of Sweet Meaning", comy to "Buddhavamsa", > PTS ch XXVI, Gotama: > > 1."...He thought , "A Buddha's mother is not > a wanton or a drunkard. On the contrary, for a hundred thousand eons she > has fulfilled the perfections; never since her birth has she torn the > five moreal habits. And this queen named Mahamaya is such a one. She > shall be my mother". And then, thinking what would be the extent of her > life-span, he saw it would be ten months and seven days." > > 2."...but as the womb where a Bodhisatta has dwelt is like the interior of > a cetiya and can be neither made use of nor occupied by another, so the > bodhisatta's mother, having done her (kammic) time, was reborn in Tusita > city a week after the bodhisatta was born". > > 3.related to size of the baby?? As soon as he was born: > > "When he had surveyed the ten quarters thus, not seeing one like himself > he tool seven strides facing northward. As he was walking on the ground > thus, he did not go through the sky, he went like an unclothed (ascetic), > not like one who was clothed, and he went LIKE A BOY, not as one who was > in his sixteenth year; but, to the populace HE WAS WALKING AS THOUGH > THROUGH THE SKY AND AS THOUGH HE WERE DECKT OUT AND ADORNED AND AS THOUGH > HE WERE IN HIS SIXTEENTH YEAR. Then, at the seventh step he stood still, > and at once sending forth his noble voice, he roared the lion's roar, "I > am the highest in the world." " > > Thanks for your interest and a math professor may be just what we need > here with all the measurements;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s Maybe the Buddha could make himself appear normal size as appropriate > or is that a stretch?? > ====== > > 20018 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Dear Ken H and Friends, Vipakacittas of sense-door either Akusala or Kusala always have natural feeling with exception of Bodily-touch. Agreeing or disagreeing is the matter of the individual. The scene of human excreta is an obscene and anyone who sees it will disgust(there might be Domanassa-javanas).But it may be a pleasurable scene for a dog(Somanassa-javanas).Arahats will definitely view it naturally(Upekkha-Kiriya-javana). The Golden Image of The Buddha is not a special scene for Non- Buddhists even though they may have some interest for other reasons (Upekkha-Javanas).Those who hate believing in Images or so will view with Domanassa-javanas and they may even destroy the Image.For those who believe deeply in The Buddha and Dhamma will view as a wonderful scene(Somanassa-Javanas). Sight initially is just Upekkha but later Vithicittas hold different views depending on the individual's wisdom. May you all have a right view on The Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing ^^^^^^ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau " wrote: > Hello Rob M, > > I think that eye-door consciousness, ear-door > consciousness, nose-door consciousness and tongue-door > consciousness is always accompanied by neutral feeling. > It doesn't matter if it is akusala eye-door consciousness > (the result of past akusala javana) or kusala > eye-door consciousness (the result of past kusala > javana). > > ------------- > Yes, that's what I thought. Perhaps my referring to all > vipaka cittas as either pleasant or unpleasant > experiences, gave the impression that I was disagreeing. > Do you see them that way, or does an accompanying neutral > feeling prevent a kusala eye-door vipaka citta from being > regarded as pleasant? > > ---------- > > My recent post has lots more details (please let me > know if you find any mistakes). > > ------------ > > If there were any mistakes, I'm sure they'd be too > technical for me to pick out, but thanks for > asking :-) > > ------------- > > You might find my recent post on Sanna interesting as > it does touch on feelings arising at the mind door rather > than at the sense door. > > ------------- > > I've always found sanna a difficult topic and haven't > bothered with it much. That was until Andrew assigned me > a question on memory to discuss at a meeting this > weekend. So I was pleased to read that post, thank you. > > The question of what visible object looks like -- whether > it's a coloured pixel or more like a single frame in a > movie film -- has been brought up before. Most > memorably, Nina said that this is thinking, not seeing. > (I must look for that post in my dsg scrap book, it was > very good.) She advised us that, "visible object is what > appears at the eye, that is all." > > Kind regards, > Ken H 20019 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... p.s. Ditto 'woeful realms' etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... Just a note: Seems to me that whether we're talking about these odd descriptions of the Buddha, minced and reconstituted arahats flying through the air, talking animals or terrorists (American, Arab or whatever)--whether 'myth' or 'reality', are all papa~nca--but moments of feeling, thought, various emotions etc. with regard to the papa~nca are all potentially bases of insight. My apologies if I'm just restating the obvious. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: mailto:rjkjp1 wrote: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Kom and Jim) - > > > > Not to be offensive, but merely to be a bit skeptical of matters > > such > > as this: > ..... > I'm sceptical too. Rest assured, in the 3 years of so that you've been > posting very regularly on DSG, I've never known you be in the least bit > offensive, either of the Buddha's teachings, of any members or of any > contrary views and understandings;-) > > I think it's a bit baffling to us all....one of those somewhat academic > points that may be clarified when someone comes across some detail > unexpectedly. > > Another detail in it that puzzles me is the calculation of the hattha. > According to Horner, the measurement (elbow to tip of middle finger) works > out at 15". Well, for me (and it would have been about the same for Miss > Horner) that's about correct. But then, I'm small even by modern dwarf > sizes;-) It would be twice that length of someone of 10' and so on. > Hmmm....time for me to put it aside. > ..... > I wonder whether Siddhattha was this way only after becoming > > the > > Buddha or whether he was this gigantic size prior to the conception of > > Rahula! > > To me, this claim of three times normal size is an absurdity. I > > don't > > believe it to be literally true. However, there could be a *germ* of > > truth in > > the claim. He might well have been quite large even at birth. Didn't his > > > > mother die during or shortly after the birth if Siddhattha? Could this > > have > > been due to his being an unusually large newborn? > ..... > I don't think this was the reason for her death. > > Afew quotes from "The Clarifier of Sweet Meaning", comy to "Buddhavamsa", > PTS ch XXVI, Gotama: > > 1."...He thought , "A Buddha's mother is not > a wanton or a drunkard. On the contrary, for a hundred thousand eons she > has fulfilled the perfections; never since her birth has she torn the > five moreal habits. And this queen named Mahamaya is such a one. She > shall be my mother". And then, thinking what would be the extent of her > life-span, he saw it would be ten months and seven days." > > 2."...but as the womb where a Bodhisatta has dwelt is like the interior of > a cetiya and can be neither made use of nor occupied by another, so the > bodhisatta's mother, having done her (kammic) time, was reborn in Tusita > city a week after the bodhisatta was born". > > 3.related to size of the baby?? As soon as he was born: > > "When he had surveyed the ten quarters thus, not seeing one like himself > he tool seven strides facing northward. As he was walking on the ground > thus, he did not go through the sky, he went like an unclothed (ascetic), > not like one who was clothed, and he went LIKE A BOY, not as one who was > in his sixteenth year; but, to the populace HE WAS WALKING AS THOUGH > THROUGH THE SKY AND AS THOUGH HE WERE DECKT OUT AND ADORNED AND AS THOUGH > HE WERE IN HIS SIXTEENTH YEAR. Then, at the seventh step he stood still, > and at once sending forth his noble voice, he roared the lion's roar, "I > am the highest in the world." " > > Thanks for your interest and a math professor may be just what we need > here with all the measurements;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s Maybe the Buddha could make himself appear normal size as appropriate > or is that a stretch?? > ====== > > > 20020 From: nidive Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: Anatta -no control( was Comfort Hi RobertK, I hope you are not annoyed with me. Those things said by Thein Nyun are very unacceptable as I have pointed out. Continuity of the elements does not cause "personality belief". It is not the direct cause of it. I do think there is no cause, but the Buddha did talk of a "root" sequence of all phenomena though. See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html Let me use a "theoretical approach" to try to convey my message of "control without a controller" to you. Suppose you need to move your right hand from point A to point D. Suppose it takes one abhidhammic moment at each points, A, B, C, D. We know that at each of the points a single cetana arises, coordinates the rest of the elements to do their jobs and then ceases together with those elements. We know that cetana is not-self. It arises, does its job and then ceases. Yet, when we look at all four cetanas in sequence, did they perform their job of coordinating your right hand from point A to point D step-by-step? A single cetana by itself cannot do this. It's coordination is microscopic. But with four cetanas, this is possible. The coordination becomes macroscopic. When this progression is viewed strictly from the point of view of cetana A to cetana D, can it be rightly said that the cetanas, working in sequence after one another, did not control/direct/coordinate the right hand to move from point A to point D? A single cetana performs it's coordination at the microscopic level. The aggregate of cetana performs it's coordination at the macroscopic level. When viewed at the macroscopic level, I do not see a self within or without the four impermanent cetanas. Yet, there is controlling/directing/coordinating of the hand from point A to point D. "Whatever (mental) fabrications are PAST, FUTURE, or PRESENT; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: those are called the aggregate of fabrications. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html It is this cetaná that is ALLUDED TO AS sankhára and (Kamma) bhava in the Paticca Samuppáda. In the pañcakkhandha, by sankhárakkhandha are meant the fifty mental states, excluding vedaná and saññá, with cetaná AS THE FOREMOST. http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_2.htm I have put down what I have known for myself through insight into theoretical form. If I do not have this insight, I would probably have agreed with you about "no-control". But precisely because I have this insight, I cannot agree with you. That would be a falsehood for me. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 20021 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 8:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... Hi Sarah & Robert & Mike, > -----Original Message----- > > p.s Maybe the Buddha could make himself appear > normal size as appropriate > or is that a stretch?? > ====== Ah, but have you seen the description in the comy that the Buddha hid his size? We saw comy descriptions about the Buddha hiding his 32 and other minor characteristics, as well as the radiated lights. Robert's point just raises even more questions... Nanda probably looks very much like the Buddha. Not only he was a relative, but he was also endowed with the 32 great-man characteristics, but on the other hand he doesn't radiate lights either.... Of course, Mike's answer is the best for this one, and it is a point that is never too obvious! We can go on forever on a thread about all these, as well as the size of the universe, the potency of Jhana, probably all brings madness eventually... kom 20022 From: Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta -no control( was Comfort Hi, Swee Boon (and Robert) - I'd like to make a comment or two. Swee Boon, I think the points you make here are quite valid (realizing, of course, that the referring to only for moments of cetana is just for purposes of illustration). Actually, I don't really think that what you write contradicts the points made in Robert's outstanding post to which you are here replying. As I see it, the microscopic and macroscopic perspectives are complementary but compatible, and it is understanding both and their relationship that gives the full picture. Also, while it is not continuity per se which causes self-view, I do think that the *misunderstanding* of the apparent continuity is a major factor in I-making. Now, with regard to control/no-control, I've already weighed in on that, supporting the perspective of control but no controller. However, it is the impersonal function of many moments of cetana, together with the sense of continuity, which, under the influence of avijja, play a major role in our sensing and believing in a controlling self. So, this issue is a very important one, probably critical. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/3/03 9:53:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi RobertK, > > I hope you are not annoyed with me. > > Those things said by Thein Nyun are very unacceptable as I have > pointed out. > > Continuity of the elements does not cause "personality belief". It > is not the direct cause of it. > > I do think there is no cause, but the Buddha did talk of > a "root" sequence of all phenomena though. See: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html > > Let me use a "theoretical approach" to try to convey my message of > "control without a controller" to you. > > Suppose you need to move your right hand from point A to point D. > Suppose it takes one abhidhammic moment at each points, A, B, C, D. > > We know that at each of the points a single cetana arises, > coordinates the rest of the elements to do their jobs and then > ceases together with those elements. > > We know that cetana is not-self. It arises, does its job and then > ceases. > > Yet, when we look at all four cetanas in sequence, did they perform > their job of coordinating your right hand from point A to point D > step-by-step? > > A single cetana by itself cannot do this. It's coordination is > microscopic. But with four cetanas, this is possible. The > coordination becomes macroscopic. > > When this progression is viewed strictly from the point of view of > cetana A to cetana D, can it be rightly said that the cetanas, > working in sequence after one another, did not > control/direct/coordinate the right hand to move from point A > to point D? > > A single cetana performs it's coordination at the microscopic level. > The aggregate of cetana performs it's coordination at the > macroscopic level. > > When viewed at the macroscopic level, I do not see a self within or > without the four impermanent cetanas. Yet, there is > controlling/directing/coordinating of the hand from point A to > point D. > > > "Whatever (mental) fabrications are PAST, FUTURE, or PRESENT; > internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or > near: those are called the aggregate of fabrications. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html > > It is this cetaná that is ALLUDED TO AS sankhára and (Kamma) bhava > in the Paticca Samuppáda. In the pañcakkhandha, by sankhárakkhandha > are meant the fifty mental states, excluding vedaná and saññá, with > cetaná AS THE FOREMOST. > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_2.htm > > > I have put down what I have known for myself through insight into > theoretical form. If I do not have this insight, I would probably > have agreed with you about "no-control". But precisely because I > have this insight, I cannot agree with you. That would be a > falsehood for me. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20023 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna - Looking for feedback! Hi Howard, Sorry for the delay in responding. I am in Bangkok today and very busy. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Someone then on the list told me that, no, a > visual object is the entire "snapshot" that appears at one moment, for > example when one opens the eyes - so that sa~n~na then subsequently carves > out and identifies parts of what is already entirely present). I have no axe > to grind in his matter. As far as I'm concerned, the mattter is simply as it > is. But there does seem to be a difference in perspective here. Though my understand is "a dot", if somebody were to show me a reference that it was a total snapshot that was later "carved out" by mind-door citta-processes, I would see it as a minor, technical clarification... the main points about the function of sanna as memory and the relative importance of the mind-door citta process wouldn't change at all. Metta, Rob M :-) 20024 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 9:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna - Looking for feedback! Hi TG, Thanks for your input. I have inserted a few comments below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Comment: If considering the rods and cones on the retina to be like dots of > information, this makes sense. What is actually seen is light. Experience > is the result of contact. It seems that perceptions of objects (in the > distance) are interpretations of those dots. (Howard's comment that > perceptions arise as a "snap shot" seems supported by the notion in > abhidhamma materials that perception is a universal mental factors and > accompanies all consciousness.) However, it seems that perceptions arise > more from a process and the suttas seem to indicate that as well. Perhaps it > depends on the "type" or complexity of perception. ===== As I replied to Howard, I see this as a "tactical" point, not a "strategic" one. ====== > > he Suttas explain that sanna creates concepts. We have seen that > > the sense-door citta process a small, elemental bit of information > > and the subsequent mind-door citta processes process this into > > increasingly complex concepts: > > - Dots --> Blocks of colour --> Shapes --> > > > Comment: This seems real solid. Just to "knit-pick" though, perhaps the word > create is not appropriate and "generate" or "form a foundation for" would be > better. ====== I pick, "form a foundation for" as being closest to my understanding. ===== > > This stage of judgment is what completes the > > link between feeling and craving in dependent origination. > > > > Craving is conditioned by pleasant feeling associated with concepts. > > Visible objects condition neutral feeling and therefore do not > > condition craving directly. Pleasant feeling is associated with > > current concepts when sanna "remembers" past concepts and the > > associated pleasant feeling. > > Comment A: Judgement or concepts that either intervene or associate between > feeling and craving are not necessarily links between the two. The Buddha > says: due to feeling, craving arises. He does not say that due to feeling > and judgements /concepts, craving arises. I think feeling and craving should > be seen as direct links. In fact, it is more likely that due to craving --> > judgements and concepts arise. (As forms of clinging.) Craving is the source > for mental exploration that result in judgements and concepts that continue > to seek out new pleasures. > > Comment B: Rob M, the above was my initial reaction but after reading again > below and above, I think you are right also. I think both are happening > depending on the conditions. I tend to look at things from an evolutionary > point of view. If extremely simple rudimentary creatures are thought of, > they are not forming judgements or concepts most likely. Yet I suspect they > have pleasant feeling and craving which is what makes them grasp after > existence. In the case of more highly evolved creatures, concepts and > judgements are "extra factors" to be considered. Yet, I cannot remember any > instance of the Buddha saying that: due to concepts and judgements --> > craving arises. I don't think the Honeyball is saying that. > > "What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > thinks about. What one thinks about, that one obsesses." > > I suspect the craving process is accompanying and propagating the - - > perceiving, thinking about, and obsession -- being mentioned here. ======== I see "judgement" as having a very specific function of accessing the feeling that is associated with the name in long-term memory. Judgement drags that feeling from memory and this feeling is what "craving" chases after. I would associate "judgement" with the "thinking about" stage of the Honeyball Sutta, which comes before obsession. In the Honeyball Sutta, the term "thinking about" is a translation of vitakka, which when used as a cetasika means "initial application". To me, this is an "unconscious bias" applied by the mind to the object; a semi- automatic response which has the same flavour as "inital application". "Judgement" was the name used by Shwe Zan Aung in his introductory essay to the Abhidhammatthasangaha (PTS version) as one of the stages before conceptual proliferation (I can't remember the exact sequence and I am now on the road, so I need to check the exact sequence). ====== > > Just as sanna is between feeling (vedana) and craving (taöha) in the > > chain of dependent origination, whenever the five aggregates are > > listed, sanna is always listed between feeling and sankhara > > (sankhara includes craving). > > > Comment: Is this last a true statement? Is sanna mentioned in the 12 Fold > Chain? > ===== You are correct that sanna is not one of the links. I took this idea from the book, "The Five Aggregates - Understanding Theravada Psychology and Soteriology" which stresses the role that sanna plays in the transition from feeling to craving. Metta, Rob M :-) 20025 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Dear Rob M, op 02-03-2003 06:49 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > This is something that I am not clear about. What makes a > kamma, "kamma-patha"? > > I thought that every javana citta created the potential for future > vipaka (when conditions allowed). If I understand Jon correctly, he > disagrees and feels that only certain javana cittas create the > potential for future vipaka. Please help me understand better. Nina: I think you know the texts of the Atth, where it is explained that certain factors make kamma a kamma patha. Like in the case of killing, etc. We had many posts on this subject, also long ago. Num warned: kamma is the field of the Buddhas. We have a few explanations from Tipita and Co, but it does not help to go on reasoning. A. Sujin will say: through satipatthana you will understand. What about this moment: is it kusala, akusala, vipaka, kiriya? You need not worry when you think, in a minute I shall have a delicious dessert, or, what a long flight, I feel so tired (dosa). You know that this is not akusala kamma patha. But we know so little about this moment, the characteristic of kusala or akusala is not clearly understood. We are not sure about the characteristic of seeing, and thus, how can we clearly understand vipaka? If you get this post in time, you could bring it up, also the free will and control, in case you have still doubts. I hope you meet A. Sujin. Tell us all, I wish you a very fruitful time, Nina. 20026 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 10:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta -no control( was Comfort --- Dear Howard and Swee Boon, Yes, I think you are right here, Howard (leaving aside control without controller;)). Ultimate truth does not contradict conventional truth. When we refer to 'intention'(in normal speech) it is a conglomeration of many different cetasikas -vitakka, vicara, cetana, viriya, chanda..etc, and comprising a long chain of moments, which because these are taken as a whole give such a sense of control. As you said:""it is the impersonal function of many moments of cetana, together > with the sense of continuity, which, under the influence of avijja, play a > major role in our sensing and believing in a controlling self. So, this issue > is a very important one, probably critical." RobertK > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Swee Boon (and Robert) - > > I'd like to make a comment or two. Swee Boon, I think the points you > make here are quite valid (realizing, of course, that the referring to only > for moments of cetana is just for purposes of illustration). Actually, I > don't really think that what you write contradicts the points made in > Robert's outstanding post to which you are here replying. As I see it, the > microscopic and macroscopic perspectives are complementary but compatible, > and it is understanding both and their relationship that gives the full > picture. > Also, while it is not continuity per se which causes self- view, I do > think that the *misunderstanding* of the apparent continuity is a major > factor in I-making. Now, with regard to control/no-control, I've already > weighed in on that, supporting the perspective of control but no controller. > However, it is the impersonal function of many moments of cetana, together > with the sense of continuity, which, under the influence of avijja, play a > major role in our sensing and believing in a controlling self. So, this issue > is a very important one, probably critical. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 3/3/03 9:53:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... > writes: > > > Hi RobertK, > > > > I hope you are not annoyed with me. > > > > Those things said by Thein Nyun are very unacceptable as I have > > pointed out. > > > > Continuity of the elements does not cause "personality belief". It > > is not the direct cause of it. > > 20028 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 0:22pm Subject: Contentment Hi all, I am interested in engaging in talk on contentment with anyone is interested in the same. I have look into the definition of the word "content" and found that it means desiring no more than what one has, satisfied, feeling or manisfesting satisfaction with one's possession, status, or situation. Contentment is the state of being content. I am interested in anyone's opinion on contentment. Regards, Victor 20029 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 0:50pm Subject: Re: Modesty Hi Victor, I can think off hand of a few meanings - e.g. 1. 'She has a modest income' or 'he was a modest eater' - i.e. had sufficient but not a large amount. 2. 'She was so modest that she was embarrassed when the doctor needed to examine her. i.e. inhibited by cultural/spiritual/familial beliefs 3. Even though he had won the chess title five years in a row, out of modesty he never mentioned it in discussions.' i.e. no boasting 4. She dressed modestly and did not wear her diamond and gold jewellery. ie her style of dress was restrained. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi all, > > I am interested to learn more about the virtue of modesty. What > does it mean by being modest? How and in what ways should one be > modest? What is the benefit of being modest? > > Regards, > Victor 20030 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 2:07pm Subject: Re: prelimary practice Dear Sukin, I had to laugh out loud when you said something about my 'apparent lack of mana'. If only it were more real than apparent! Still, any time I'm aware of my embarrassing tendencies towards conceit it's a good reminder of my lack of understanding. Even to calling them my accumulations and being embarrassed about it, no doubt. Anyway, thank you for the nice thoughts and talking about 'deliberate preliminary practice.' There's plenty to think about there. Seems I will be stuck with doing 'deliberate preliminary practice' for at least as long as I think about what I 'should' do instead of just learning to pay attention to what Is. I have a lot of wrong understanding of Dhamma and take for granted things I don't even give any real thought to. That, too, must involve a kind of pride/conceit or at least a lot of misplaced confidence in my own delusion. Just yesterday I read the following exchange in the archives and learned something new even though I could have parrotted the last sentence... Howard: Really! So are you saying, then, that there were moments at which the Buddha was without wisdom? Sarah: Yes. For example whenever vipaka cittas (such as seeing, hearing and so on arise). These are never accompanied by wisdom or awareness. Only the 7 universal cetasikas arise with all cittas. As you say, there's a difference between learning and understanding. And still, this is just more conceptual knowledge on my part. I'd like to call it a step in the right direction but it's probably closer to barely opening my eyes to get some idea of where I am without turning my head. Still can't say I know what sacchannana is. Or kicchannana and katannana. I'll spare you my guessing and hope I avoid trying your patience. 8) peace, connie 20031 From: royhgordon Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 4:28pm Subject: numerical discourses on karma In the Numerical Discourses in the section of fours there are three discourse on karma: Four Kinds of Kamma Four Upadanas Four Constituents of the Body (in particular, Kammaja rupa) Does anyone know if these are available on line? Thanks. Roy 20032 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 4:47pm Subject: Re: numerical discourses on karma Hi Roy, Here is what is available on-line from the Anguttara Suttas: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html A quick scan did not reveal the Suttas that you were looking for. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "royhgordon " wrote: > In the Numerical Discourses in the section of fours there are three > discourse on karma: > > Four Kinds of Kamma > > Four Upadanas > > Four Constituents of the Body (in particular, Kammaja rupa) > > Does anyone know if these are available on line? > > Thanks. > > Roy 20033 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 4:58pm Subject: Re: numerical discourses on karma Hi Roy and All It seems this site has a complete english translation of the Anguttara Nikaya on it, which was a delight to find. :0) http://www.metta.lk/ Take care Steve --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "royhgordon " wrote: > In the Numerical Discourses in the section of fours there are three > discourse on karma: > > Four Kinds of Kamma > > Four Upadanas > > Four Constituents of the Body (in particular, Kammaja rupa) > > Does anyone know if these are available on line? > > Thanks. > > Roy 20034 From: Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna - Looking for feedback! In a message dated 3/3/2003 9:44:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > You are correct that sanna is not one of the links. I took this idea > from the book, "The Five Aggregates - Understanding Theravada > Psychology and Soteriology" which stresses the role that sanna plays > in the transition from feeling to craving. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > Hi Rob M. During pleasant and painful experience craving probably arises immediately. In these cases I suspect craving is extremely rudimentary and absolutely "next" to feeling without the need of perception or more developed mental states to explain it. During neither pleasant nor painful feeling, craving perhaps arises more as you point out -- after a "more sophisticated" search with more complicated mental factors involved and supporting craving. TG 20035 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 10:58pm Subject: kamma, a correction Dear Rob M. and all, A correction to be made: I wrote to Rob M that the Tipitaka and Co give a few explanations: should be: many explanations. The Dependent Origination, so often explained, is essential for the understanding of vipaka, defilements and kamma, three cycles, in our life. The Buddha explained cause and effect all the time. Another matter is: do we understand Dependent Origination just now, at this very moment? Nina. 20036 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 11:12pm Subject: Re:(3) Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events(? at end) Dear Htoo Naing, Thank you for this explanation. Unfortunately, it has left me confused. You wrote: --------- > Vipakacittas of sense-door either Akusala or Kusala always have natural feeling with exception of Bodily- touch. > Agreeing or disagreeing is the matter of the individual. > The scene of human excreta is an obscene and anyone who sees it will disgust(there might be Domanassa- javanas).But it may be a pleasurable scene for a dog(Somanassa-javanas).Arahats will definitely view it naturally(Upekkha-Kiriya-javana). > -------------- I take this to mean that, in javana cittas, arahats will cognize any visible object "naturally," and by that you mean, with a naturally corresponding neutral mental feeling. But Arahats have upekkha javana even where the vipaka feeling was pleasant or unpleasant -- i.e., at the body door. So in that case, the 'natural' correlation is not present. --------------- > Sight initially is just Upekkha > . . --------------- I would have thought, sight (both seeing and visible object), initially is just pleasant or unpleasant, never neutral. (There is no neutral kamma for us worldlings, and so there is no neutral vipaka.) In the case of body-sense, the accompanying physical feeling is appropriately pleasant or unpleasant, never neutral. This WOULD BE the same for eye-sense, WERE IT NOT FOR the physical frailty of eye-sense contact (like two cotton balls colliding). My version seems to be consistent with what other people have written here in the past -- or at least, with how I have understood what they have written. I will keep an open mind. Kind regards, Ken H --------- > but later Vithicittas hold different views depending on the individual's wisdom. > ---------------- 20037 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 11:32pm Subject: Re: numerical discourses on karma Hi Steve, I share your delight!! This is the most wonderful gift! Thank you. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500 " wrote: > Hi Roy and All > It seems this site has a complete english translation > of the Anguttara Nikaya on it, which was a delight to find. :0) > > http://www.metta.lk/ > > Take care > Steve 20038 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 11:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] mindfulness Hi Janice, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 1:42 AM > > Dear Kom, > Thank You for explaining to me > about the mindfulness word. Do you ever celebrate > Chinese New Year? When I was in Thailand, my parents cerebrated Chinese New Year. We often goes see relatives, have food, etc. Of course, when I was a kid, I used to get money from my relatives too. > Does every Buddist believe that > mindfulness is essential to them? Well, a Buddhist who understands what the Buddha teaches understands that without mindfulness, we can't follow in his path. Mindfulness is essential in following the teaching of the Buddha. > Was the real Buddha > Gold ? You've got me there. I have never seen a real Buddha myself ;-). If you do good, avoid doing bad, and become wise, maybe one day you can see another Buddha for yourself. > Is mindfulness always good or sometimes bad as > well? That's a great question. I wrote to you the last time: "There are many different kinds of mindfulness, but whenever you remember to 1) do something good, 2) avoid doing something bad, or 3) develop good qualities of the mind and also wisdom, these are all mindfulness." Do you see anything that is bad above? You can see it for yourself instead of just taking it from me. When you are kind to people, is kindness good or bad? How about when you are angry with people, is the anger good or bad? How about when you are about to kill something, do you feel good (peaceful) or do you feel uneasy? But what about when you about to kill, but you remember that other beings (be it an ugly bug, or whatever) too don't like being hurt and also like to be happy, and you then don't kill, how do you feel? Being good is not just because somebody says it is good, but it is really good. You can test it. kom 20039 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 0:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re:Kom's letter Dear Kimmy, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > Dear Kom. > > Thanks for your letter about rebirth. It's interesting > and I would like to ask how can we know which > existence we will belong to in our next life? Nobody can know except for the Buddha himself. On the hand, he teaches that good deeds will bear good results, and bad deeds will bear bad results. If one is reborn into an unhappy plane of existence, it is because of (past) bad deed. If one is born into a happy plane of existence, it is because of (past) good deed. > Why does somebody say that they have ever seen a > ghost? I think it is because of many reasons. One is, they are just imagining it. Two is, they really see something else, but think they see a ghost. And three is, they really see the ghost! > Do they really have a pair of eyes which are > specially different from ours? This is a very good question. Have you ever noticed that sometimes, when two people are at the same place, they don't see the same thing? Sometimes when you hang out with a friend, you may see something, but your friend doesn't. Everybody, even if they are at the same place, don't see exactly the same thing. How about eye sights? You can notice some of your friends see better than the others. Some have to wear eye glasses, some just see perfectly. Not only our eyes are different, we almost always never see the same way. > When I went home yesterday, I started a seriuos > quarrel with my mother, she didn't allow me to go to > school today (Saturday) to do my artwork, but I > really needed to do it, if not i would be scolded by > my art teacher. At first, I was using a very good > attutide to talk to my mother, however, when > my mother said I was wrong, I started to use a bad > attitude. So I would like to ask how can the Buddhist > stories help these kind of problem. > What the Buddha teaches (and what his stories teaches) allows us to see how things really are. For example, when you were quarreling with your mother, you may feel angry. Is anger good or bad? Is your anger different from any other people's anger? When you hear something you don't like, can you control the anger? If you are not angry when you hear something you don't like, why is that? Does the anger last forever? When you know how things work, you are bound to get less upset since you *know* why things come to be this way. Sometimes, even when we do our very best, things don't work out the way we want them to. This is one of the thing that will be true through out your (and my) life. The Buddha, who is a knower of all people's habits, sometimes cannot convince other people to stop quarreling. Should we stop being good because things don't turn out the way we want to? I don't' think so. We shouldn't do good because we want things to turn out a certain way, but we should know the values of being good. If we know that, then being good is OK, even when things don't turn our way. kom 20040 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 0:06am Subject: I read this really good book! Dear James, Today I saw a picture of you! You were with this really young asian girl while you were praying...I think...well you were wearing white clothes. I wanted to ask you what grade do you teach? If I ever become a teacher, I would teach kindergardens. I read a book called "The Visons of The Buddha" which is about Buddhism in different parts of the world such as China, Thailand, Japan and so on, I thought that it was a truly great book. I also read another book called "The Giver" and that was also a very good book. A quote from "The Visons Of The Buddha" In the chapter about Westeners becoming interested in Buddhism: "The leaf of this tree, entrusted to my garden from the east, offers the experience of secret meaning."- Goethe I don't really understand what that meant and I was wondering if could you explain it to me. Bye! Jan Chearavanont P.S: Plz write me some more funny poems or quotes! P.P.S: This is a funny quote that I got "I am NOBODY and NOBODY is perfect...that makes me perfect!" 20041 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 0:08am Subject: Introducing a book>>> Dear Everyone> I am Kiana. I hope all of you would not mind that I am going to introduce a book to you again. It is called "The British Museum Buddha" It introduces every Buddha e.g. Death of the Buddha or The Laughing Buddha and so on. It was great! There are also a lot of beautiful pictures and not many words. You can finish it in one day. You can also know more about Buddha in this book. I think all of you'll love it . Love, Kiana. 20042 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 0:52am Subject: Re: prelimary practice Hi Connie, To me it feels so true that the more we know ourselves the more we realize how ignorant we are? And what is this 'ignorance' if it is not in relation to what is arising at this moment? We may make a generalized estimation of who we are and where we stand, but the realization of ignorance would be in seeing that this is all just thinking. Sacchannana is still a long way, how unrealistic would it be to aim for sotapattimaga, that aim being limited by the memories attached to this single lifetime?! A few months ago, lobha, dosa, upadana, mana etc. were understood as obstacles to clear comprehension, but this was all mostly theory. It is = still theoretical now, but there have been moments when application of theory has been a few trillion cittas closer to the actual arising. Though = still trillions of cittas away, the effect is quite powerful and encouragin= g of saddha. I know that mana is eradicated only by the arahata, but it can be observed, even it be only the very gross manifestation and after already conditioning much akusala and papanca. When sati arises even at this small level, the cetasikas which would normally send the mind rolling into more akusala do not get the chance to arise. Also one begins to have a glimpse of what it would be like to have satisampajanna of higher levels. So when I refer to your ¡¥apparent lack of mana¡¦, I base my observation on the fact that you manage to go straight to the point, it seems that it must be because you are not too influenced by ¡¥self¡¦. Obviously we mostly remember our akusala quite clearly, so when someone else says otherwise, we will have to laugh. Besides when someone says I have less mana, I remember mostly my superiority mana, at that moment being embarrassed I fail to see the inferiority mana at work, and next moment I may even think to myself ¡§I know myself¡¨ and that would be mana again¡K :-/. One thing though, even if one sees how far one is from the goal, whatever that is, the study of cittas and cetasikas can be quite powerful. = I only wish those people who are skeptical about the Abhidhamma wouldn¡¦t be so. I know that without aiming for enlightenment ¡§in this very life¡¨, what little has been gained is at least productive of more saddha. I have seen on the other hand, people getting more and more attached to meditation practice as time progresses. Some start with half an hour a day and will end up after a few years to several hours. They will not consider their practice as attachment, but instead as ¡§right practice¡¨, but if you asked them about the nature of reality, or what one = knows now, they can only say that they are more at peace with themselves. Many believe that what is required is a sudden breakthrough. But as you know, panna can only be developed upon weaker levels of panna, certainly not by following some practice just because some seemingly wise person advised us to do so. If you asked about saddha, their reference point would be their practice, they would not feel any inclination towards trying to understand more of the Buddha¡¦s teachings. As Nina has suggested on more than one occasion, ¡¥the practice must not cause us to be stressful¡¦. The middle way is narrow and it is hard to = keep the balance, but wanting and wishing and having a ¡¥thing to do¡¦ does not make this possible. Our accumulated ignorance makes it hard to walk straight, but why make it more difficult by believing in things tha= t do not happen naturally and calling it ¡§right practice¡¨?! Ignorance is ignorance, concept is concept, let us learn to recognize and become more and more familiar with these. A non-questioning attitude towards any kind of practice does not help us along this path of enquiry. Connie I know that you have a very good understanding of dhamma and whatever I say here, if it is valid is nothing new to you. But I almost never get the chance to express myself, hence a long letter again, and I hope you do not mind the mental proliferation. ƒº Will end now. Best wishes, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > I had to laugh out loud when you said something about my 'apparent 20043 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sanna - Looking for feedback! Hi Rob M (Howard, TG, Suan & All), --- "robmoult " There are quite a few points I’d be interested to discuss further, but let me just take up the first one for now: > The cittas in an eye-door citta process have "visible object" (rupa) > as their object. A "visible object" is not a flower (flower is a > concept). A visible object is a dot, a dot of colour. ..... You mention elsewhere that you don’t “see Buddhism as a “science” “, but aren’t these ideas from science intruding? I liked the way Howard suggested “a visual object is the entire "snapshot" that appears at one moment, for example when one opens the eyes - so that sa~n~na then subsequently carves out and identifies parts of what is already entirely present.” I believe this can indeed be tested and proved." ..... Simply put, as I understand, visible object is just that which is seen at this moment. If there is an idea of dots this is surely thinking about what is seen? At this moment of opening the eyes, the seeing sees what it’s always seen and accordingly as you say, sanna can mark the various objects and there are conditions for the mind-door activity. If there is any idea of seeing something special or different, such as dots or blank colours or light, then it is not awareness of visible object and is probably an aspect of wrong practice (not that I’m suggesting you or anyone else is trying this). I think the realities to be known are in a way very obvious and simple - just as they’ve always been, but covered up by moha(ignorance). I tend to think that the reason there is so little awareness relates to the lack of understanding of anatta. Even though visible object is in front of our eyes at this moment, whilst there is any idea of ‘doing’ or ‘practising’ or ‘noting’ now, there won’t be conditions for awareness to arise. Just an idea. In the texts (Suttanta and Abhidhamma in particular), it is always visible object (ruupa) that is referred to rather than dots or anything else. “Visual consciousness arises because of eye and visible object, the meeting of the three is contact...” and so on. From the Sammohavinodani (Disp. of Delusion, ch2, 211) we read; “Herein, firstly (as to meaning) in particular: “it relishes” (cakkhati), thus it is an eye (cakkhu); the meaning is that it enjoys a visble datum (ruupa) and reveals it. “It makes visible” (ruupayatti), thus it is a visible datum (ruupa)...” ..... The following is another quote from the same source(227) stressing the anatta-ness and lack of control of these various elements: “visible data, odour and flavour bases...sound base...but as to classification acording to similarity and dissimilarity, they are all of infinite variety... all these bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. For they do not come from anywhere previous to their rise, not do they go anywhere after their fall; but rather before they rise they had not obtained their intrinsic nature (sabhava) and after their fall their intrinsic nature is completely broken up; in between what is before and after, they occur without power (being exercisable over them) owing to dependence on conditions. Therefore they should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. ‘Likewise (they should be regarded) as inactive and unoccupied. For it does not occur to they eye and visible-datum and so on: ‘Would that consciousness might arise from our concurrence.’.... ‘Furthermore, the internal (bases) should be regarded as an empty village because they are devoid of lastingnes, beauty, pleasure and self; and the external (bases) as village-raiding robbers (Siv 175) because they raid (impinge) on the internal (bases). For this is said: ‘The eye, bhikkhus, is struck by agreeable and disagreeable visible data.’.....” ***** You write later in your post: ..... > Craving is conditioned by pleasant feeling associated with concepts. > Visible objects condition neutral feeling and therefore do not > condition craving directly. Pleasant feeling is associated with > current concepts when sanna "remembers" past concepts and the > associated pleasant feeling. ..... I’m not sure I agree here. Visible objects by way of arammana paccaya (object condition) can condition craving very directly. Lobha can be attached to sense objects, feelings or concepts surely? Feeling is given as the proximate or perhaps principal condition, but not the only one. Also from Sammohavinodani (837) under the section of “With Feeling as Condition, Craving” “The meaning is that in this description of “with feeling as condition, craving (arises)”, these six kinds of craving are illustrated.......”visible-data craving...mental-data craving”, being called after their object as a son is called after his father “rich man’s son”, “brahman’s son”. Herein, “visible-data craving” (ruupata.nha) is craving in respect of a visible datum; ...Similar comments are made for the other sense doorways. ‘But a regards these (six) kinds of craving, each kind is held to be threefold, according to its mode of occurrence as craving for sense desire, craving for existence and craving for non-existence. For when visible-data craving occurs in the form of delighting with sense delight in a visible datum as object that has come into the focus of the eye, it is then called craving for sense desire.....” ..... Later, we also read about how in any case all kinds of feelings condition all kinds of craving, but yet they depend on the accumulated tendencies as well(842): “One who suffers yearns for happiness; one who has happiness wants more; Yet equanimity, took, is knowm as happiness since it is peaceful. Since all three feelings thus can be conditions for all kinds of craving, “With feelings as condition, there is craving” has been said by the Greatest Sage. Though feeling is condition, still without inherent tendency No craving can arise, and so from this the perfect saint is free.” ***** Conditions are very complicated and intricate. Other passages in the same chapter give a taste of this intricacy. I believe that if there is any idea of ‘breaking the link’ or preventing craving from arising on account of feelings, it is to underestimate the power of conditions and to not fully comprehend the nature of anatta. The “perfect saint” is free, or the link is broken, throught the comprehension and full knowledge of conditioned realities and thereby the eradication of kilesa (defilements) on account of transitory phenomena. ..... > This progression is described in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18): > > ----- > Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The > meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there > is feeling. > > What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one > thinks about. What one thinks about, that one obsesses. > > What obsesses one is the cause perceptions and notions tinged by > obsession that beset a man with respect to past, future and present > forms cognizable though the eye. ..... These are very helpful reminders to read over and over. You may not have ready access to the The ~Nanamoli/Bodhi transl which adds a Ms note by ~Nm which you may like to read(p1204,232: “The meeting of eye, form, and eye-consciousness is called contact. Contact, according to dependent origination, is the principal condition of feeling. Feeling and perception are inseparable (MN43.9). what is perceived as ‘this’ is thought about in its differences and is thus diversified from ‘that’ and from ‘me’. This divesification -involving craving for form, wrong view about permanence of form, etc, and the conceit ‘I am’ - leads to preoccupation with calculating the desirability of past and present forms with a view to obtaining desirable forms in the future.” ***** I’ll leave it here and look forward to any further comments. Metta, Sarah ===== 20044 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 4:45am Subject: Re: Modesty Hi Christine, Thank you for the response and I agree with what you say. From what I read and what I can think of, being modest means sufficient but not excessive, not self-aggrandizing, not boasting, not showing off. I am thinking what are the benefits of being modest. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Victor, > > I can think off hand of a few meanings - e.g. 1. 'She has a modest > income' or 'he was a modest eater' - i.e. had sufficient but not a > large amount. 2. 'She was so modest that she was embarrassed when > the doctor needed to examine her. i.e. inhibited by > cultural/spiritual/familial beliefs 3. Even though he had won the > chess title five years in a row, out of modesty he never mentioned it > in discussions.' i.e. no boasting 4. She dressed modestly and did > not wear her diamond and gold jewellery. ie her style of dress was > restrained. > > metta, > Christine 20045 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard Thanks for coming in on this thread. Herman has gone somewhat quiet of late, so rather than wait for his input I'll simply respond on your points. H: When one is instructed to abandon what is unskillful, and told that it is possible to do so, this implies straight out that it is within one's power to take steps to accomplish that task. J: Yes, although I would rather say that what it implies is, as I think the Buddha put it in one sutta, that there is the possibility of this being done. H: It seems to me that ... [this sutta is] an example of the Buddha indicating that it is possible to proactively exert effort and volition to accomplish things, and that, in fact, the Buddha is exhorting his listeners to do exactly that. J: Well, this is the all-important question. I think we agree that the answer is not to be found simply in a reading of this one sutta, but depends on one's reading of the whole body of the Tipitaka. There is nothing in this particular sutta that compels the inference of 'proactive [or reactive] exertion of effort and volition', as opposed to, say, the resolve that flows naturally from a recognition or understanding of the importance of the abandoning/development that is discussed in the sutta. At any moment of satipatthana, the hindrances are abandoned and the mundane path is being developed; the Buddha's exhortation is being fully heeded. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Herman) - ... > **************************************************** > > This sutta certainly seems to be as straightforward and > clear as can > be. I find it hard to imagine that the Buddha would teach such an > apparently > clear lesson with it being actually a cryptic lesson requiring > detailed > explanation and additions. But, be that as it may, it seems to me, > and I may > be quite wrong on this and await correction from Herman, Herman's > asking > whether you are at odds with the contents in any way relates to the > following: When one is instructed to abandon what is unskillful, > and told > that it is possible to do so, this implies straight out that it is > within > one's power to take steps to accomplish that task. It seems to me > that Herman > might have been pointing out this sutta as an example of the Buddha > indicating that it is possible to proactively exert effort and > volition to > accomplish things, and that, in fact, the Buddha is exhorting his > listeners > to do exactly that. Again, Herman, I await correction. In any case, > however, > that is certainly how I understand this sutta. > > With metta, > Howard ============================== http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-019.html "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" 20046 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a quantum view of free will Rob M In a post to Connie you said: "In my mind, the purpose of science is to create a model for some aspect of reality. In my opinion, the Buddha did not offer any models for reality (some of the later commentators may have added some in, but that doesn't count). The Buddha was focused on the mind. The mind is the realm of ethics and soteriology (wow, that twice in one posting!). When the Buddha discussed rupa, he only did it in reference to rupa impacting the mind. I see Buddhism as being purely phenomenological. For example, according to the Abhidhammatthasangahadipanipali, the proximate cause of rupa is consciousness (vinnana). In other words, without consciousness you don't get rupa (if a tree falls in the forest with none to hear, then there is no sound)." I'd be interested to see any reference from the texts to the effect that without consciousness you don't get rupa (meaning that if a tree falls in the forest with none to hear, then there is no sound). I have never come across such myself. To my understanding of the texts, in the case of hearing consciousness experiencing sound, the sound must always have arisen first, before the hearing consciousness that experiences it, which seems to contradict what you say above. Jon 20047 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Mike I agree in general with what you say here, and particularly with the conclusion in your last paragraph. Just one minor refinement, and that is that not all kusala kamma-patha leads to continued existence; the panna that is kusala kamma-patha of the level of satipatthana/vipassana leads to the breaking of the bond to existence. But I think you are wanting to emphasise that the important thing is not how much kusala vs. akusala there is one's life, but how much of the understanding that leads eventually to nibbana (or the conditions for the arising of such understanding) is being developed. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: (Sorry if I sent this before--I just found it apparently 'unsent' in my'outbox'). Hi Jon, Sarah Et Al., I do understand the difference between kamma (cetanaa) and kamma-patha in a general way--though I'm not crystal clear on where to draw the line (I suspect it may be naturally a little blurred). My interest in lobha in this context is because of its basic position as one of the three unwholesome roots. In the context of lobha-dosa-moha, lobha has always seemed to me to include all forms of lobha including all those mentioned in Htoo Naing's recent reminder as well as kaama and maybe others. Otherwise, why not 'kaama-dosa-moha' or raaga-dosa-moha'? Though I do recall instances in the discourses of failure of attainment (of nirodha) resulting from akusala vipaaka (resulting in turn from akusala kamma-patha), it seems to me that everyday attachments and aversions (and identification with them), and their perpetual, moment-to-moment reinforcement (by volitional action) are far more central to the most central problem of all--conditioned origination. (I'm not sure that this view is supportable from the texts). To put it another way, it seems to me that the main issue isn't kusala vs. akusala, but rebirth vs. cessation. Kusala kamma-patha leads to pleasant rebirth/sense impingement; pa~n~naa leads to nibbaana. mike 20048 From: Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/4/03 9:00:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > H: When one is instructed to abandon what is unskillful, and told > that it is possible to do so, this implies straight out that it is > within one's power to take steps to accomplish that task. > > J: Yes, although I would rather say that what it implies is, as I > think the Buddha put it in one sutta, that there is the possibility > of this being done. > ========================== Yes, of course. My statement was formulated quite conventionally. Your reformulation was less conventional, closer to paramattha sacca. The ultimate/perfect formulation would be silence. (The Zen folks emphasize that.) I suspect that our differences here may be stylistic, with me seeing some danger in the attempt to avoid conventional speech (as there most certainly also is, generally moreso, in being taken in by conventional speech!). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20049 From: m. nease Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) > Mike > > I agree in general with what you say here, and particularly with the > conclusion in your last paragraph. Just one minor refinement, and > that is that not all kusala kamma-patha leads to continued existence; > the panna that is kusala kamma-patha of the level of > satipatthana/vipassana leads to the breaking of the bond to > existence. Thanks, important correction (that some kusala kamapatha can lead to the end of rebirth). The way you've put this puzzles me though--is pa~n~naa (or sa.t.tipathaana vipassanaa) kammapatha? > But I think you are wanting to emphasise that the > important thing is not how much kusala vs. akusala there is one's > life, but how much of the understanding that leads eventually to > nibbana (or the conditions for the arising of such understanding) is > being developed. Yes, that was the idea. The more kusala (and less kusala) the better, of course, but understanding is so much more important, I think. mike 20050 From: m. nease Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a quantum view of free will Dear Rob M & Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a quantum view of free will > Rob M > > In a post to Connie you said: > "In my mind, the purpose of science is to create a model for some > aspect of reality. In my opinion, the Buddha did not offer any models > for reality (some of the later commentators may have added some in, > but that doesn't count). The Buddha was focused on the mind. The mind > is the realm of ethics and soteriology (wow, that twice in one > posting!). When the Buddha discussed rupa, he only did it in > reference to rupa impacting the mind. I see Buddhism as being purely > phenomenological. For example, according to the > Abhidhammatthasangahadipanipali, the proximate cause of rupa is > consciousness (vinnana). In other words, without consciousness you > don't get rupa (if a tree falls in the forest with none to hear, then > there is no sound)." Though I do think it can be a very interesting question whether ruupa exists without naama, I also think it's beside the point of Buddhadhamma. Why did the Buddha discuss ruupa in relation to naama? Not for cosmological, phenomenological or philosophical reasons, I think, but because both are pertinent to pa.ticcasamuppaada and the four noble truths. > I'd be interested to see any reference from the texts to the effect > that without consciousness you don't get rupa (meaning that if a tree > falls in the forest with none to hear, then there is no sound). I > have never come across such myself. > > To my understanding of the texts, in the case of hearing > consciousness experiencing sound, the sound must always have arisen > first, before the hearing consciousness that experiences it, which > seems to contradict what you say above. > > Jon p.s. Great posts Rob M. (and Jon as always). 20051 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] the central problem, dependent origination. Dear Mike, see below op 03-03-2003 15:06 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: >(snipped) it seems to me that everyday attachments and aversions (and > identification with them), and their perpetual, moment-to-moment > reinforcement (by volitional action) are far more central to the most > central problem of all--conditioned origination. (I'm not sure that this > view is supportable > from the texts). > > To put it another way, it seems to me that the main issue isn't kusala vs. > akusala, but rebirth vs. cessation. Kusala kamma-patha leads to pleasant > rebirth/sense impingement; pa~n~naa leads to nibbaana. Nina: You are right to remind us that we are all the time adding bricks, to use the simile of Atthasalini, and that the wall gets very high, it is not broken down yet. I think the accumulation of defilements is because of contiguity condition, each moment is succeeded by a following moment, I do not see accumulation to occur by volitional action. It is a warning that even now accumulations of akusala continue. Kusala is beneficial, because at such moments we do not accumulate akusala. A. Sujin said, if we do not develop the perfections, we have more hard work to do later on, this is in conventional language. We should not be attached to the accumulation of kusala, the goal is detachment. Thus, so much akusala just now. The only thing that can be done is: knowing it, realizing it as a conditioned reality. Not suppressing it, or having anxiety about it, then we accumulate even more dosa. You are right to remind us of the central problem. Otherwise people will worry only about what kind of vipaka is awaiting them. Theoretical understanding of the dependent origination is not enough, it is going on now. We experience a pleasant object through the senses, vipaka vatta, we react with lobha, kilesa vatta, and this can motivate akusala kamma, kamma vatta, three cycles as Rob K. reminded us often. May we all develop panna with patience and truthfulness, so that the bricks of the wall, that is the cycle of birth and death, be broken down. Nina. 20052 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 10:12am Subject: FW: Commentary Raahulovaadasutta, no 7 ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 14:32:19 +0100 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Commentary Raahulovaadasutta, no 7 Commentary Rahulovaadasutta, no 7. bhagavaa tassa ohiinabhaava.m jaanantopi neva attanaa khaadaniiya.m bhojaniiya.m gahetvaa agamaasi, na aanandattherassa hatthe pesesi, na pasenadimahaaraajaanaathapi.n.dikaadiina.m sa~n~na.m adaasi. The Blessed One, even though he knew that Rahula was left behind, did not go himself after he had received hard and soft food, nor did he send it through (by the hand of) the Elder Aananda, nor did he inform King Pasenadi, Anaathapi.n.dika or others. sa~n~naamattaka~nhi labhitvaa te kaajabhatta.m abhihareyyu.m. yathaa ca bhagavaa, eva.m saariputtattheropi na ki~nci akaasi. raahulatthero niraahaaro chinnabhatto ahosi. Had they only been informed only received a notification, sa~n~naamattaka~nhi) they would have brought food with a carrying pole (kaaja). Just as the Blessed One, the Elder Sariputta did not take any action either. Rahula went without food, he had to go hungry. tassa panaayasmato -- ``bhagavaa ma.m vihaare ohiina.m jaanantopi attanaa laddhapi.n.dapaata.m naapi saya.m gahetvaa aagato, na a~n~nassa hatthe pahi.ni , na manussaana.m sa~n~na.m adaasi, upajjhaayopi me ohiinabhaava.m jaananto tatheva na ki~nci akaasii''ti cittampi na uppanna.m, kuto tappaccayaa omaana.m vaa atimaana.m vaa janessati. However, the following thoughts did not occur to the venerable Rahula: ³Although the Blessed One knows that I am left behind in the monastery, he has not, after he has personally received alsmfood, taken it and come himself, nor did he send me food (by the hand of) through someone else, nor indeed did my preceptor do anything at all, although he knows that I am left behind.² Why should there be conditions for the arising of self-disrespect (omaana.m) or pride (atimaana.m)? ***** Nina. 20053 From: m. nease Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 9:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) > The more kusala (and less kusala) the better, of > course, but understanding is so much more important, I think. Of course I meant 'less akusala'...! mike 20054 From: m. nease Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] the central problem, dependent origination. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] the central problem, dependent origination. > Nina: You are right to remind us that we are all the time adding bricks, to > use the simile of Atthasalini, and that the wall gets very high, it is not > broken down yet. I think the accumulation of defilements is because of > contiguity condition, That's the conclusion I've come to too, but-- > each moment is succeeded by a following moment, I do > not see accumulation to occur by volitional action. --maybe I've been confusing kamma paccaya with kamma as cetanaa cetasika (sorry, I'm very rusty on all this). I may have been confusing the accumulation of kamma with the accumulation of defilements. Two completely separate kinds of accumulation? > It is a warning that > even now accumulations of akusala continue. > Kusala is beneficial, because at such moments we do not accumulate akusala. > A. Sujin said, if we do not develop the perfections, we have more hard work > to do later on, this is in conventional language. We should not be attached > to the accumulation of kusala, the goal is detachment. Right... > Thus, so much akusala just now. The only thing that can be done is: knowing > it, realizing it as a conditioned reality. Not suppressing it, or having > anxiety about it, then we accumulate even more dosa. Agreed--though of course we can't decide whether we want to suppress or be anxious about (especially) dislike-rooted citta, accompanied by unpleasant feeling (dosa-múla-citta domanassa-sahagataÿ paìigha-sampayuttaÿ) with anger because of the resultant desire to get rid of the unpleasant feeling (and anger?). Anxiety or the desire to suppress arises according to conditions, in other words. > You are right to remind us of the central problem. Otherwise people will > worry only about what kind of vipaka is awaiting them. > Theoretical understanding of the dependent origination is not enough, it is > going on now. Right! Thanks, Nina, mike p.s. Off-list, can you read the Pali diacriticals in this post? Are you using Outlook? If so, you can choose pCharter for the various fonts in Tools/Options and exchange Pali-embedded emails. 20055 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 0:05pm Subject: Re: Modesty Hello Victor, I looked up the Gotami Sutta 'To Gotami' in the Anguttara Nikaya VIII.53 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-053.html "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self- aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'" It appears to me that 'modesty' is not a practice in itself (which could simply be a form of 'mana' conceit), but is part of an end result. The result is having the qualities that arise in one who has correct understanding of the Doctrine and the Discipline. What do you think? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Thank you for the response and I agree with what you say. From what > I read and what I can think of, being modest means sufficient but > not excessive, not self-aggrandizing, not boasting, not showing > off. I am thinking what are the benefits of being modest. > > Regards, > Victor 20056 From: m. nease Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] the central problem, dependent origination. The phrase, > I may have been confusing the accumulation of kamma with the accumulation of > defilements. should have read > I may have been confusing the accumulation of akusala kamma with the > accumulation of defilements. 20057 From: Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 3:45pm Subject: Way 58, Comm, Clear Coprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear comprehenson in ging forwards and backwards, p. 74 Amongst these four that form the set, he who carries forth and carries back the subject of meditation reaches the crest of the clear comprehension of resort. Further, non-confusion in going forwards and so forth is the clear comprehension of non-delusion. That should be understood in the following way: -- In this Dispensation, a monk, without confusing himself, like a blinded worldling who, while going forwards or backwards, becomes muddle-headed, and believes thus: "The soul (or self) goes forward" or "The act of going forwards is produced by the soul," or "I go forwards" or "The act of going forwards is produced by me," and the like, thinks: "When there is the arising in one of the thought 'I am going forwards,' just with that thought, appears the process of oscillation originating from mind which brings to birth bodily expression (or intimation). Thus by the way of the diffusion of the process of oscillation due to mental activity, this skeleton called the body goes forward." In raising up the foot A [paduddharane] two processes [dhatuyo]: extension [pathavi] and cohesion [apo], are low, weak [omatta honti dubbala], and the other two processes: caloricity [tejo] and oscillation [vayo] are high, powerful [adhimatta honti balavatiyo]; so, too, in stretching out the foot B [atiharane] and in shifting away the foot C [vitiharane]. But in dropping down the raised foot D [vossajjane], and likewise in keeping the foot on the ground E [sannikkhepane] and in pressing the foot against the ground F [sannirumbhane] the first two processes are high and powerful and the second, low and weak. There, the material and mental phenomena in A do not occur in B; those in B do not occur in C; those in C do not occur in D; those in D do not occur in E; those in E do not occur in F. These phenomena after coming into existence in the form of several sections, links, and parts, break quickly just in those places, crackling like sesamum seeds thrown into a heated pan. In this matter, who is the one that goes forward, or whose going forward is there? In the highest sense (paramatthato) what takes place is the going, the standing, the sitting down and the lying down of the processes. With material form in the several divisions (groups or parts), One conscious state arises And quite another ceases, In sequence, like a river's flow, These states (of mind and matter) go. (aññam uppajjate cittam aññam cittam nirujjhati avicimanusambandho nadi soto va vattati]. 20058 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 4:59pm Subject: Re: preliminary practice Dear Sukin, When I was 16 or 17, my teacher's meditation instruction was "just pay attention." There was no reason given or any 'goal' for a lot of the exercises she gave us. If and when we got it, we would just know. Anything she would tell us to do, it was "just get out of your way and do it or leave and let the rest of us." She really didn't even talk about Buddha but I think she had to walk a fine line to avoid getting in trouble for mixing religion into a public school setting. "What is happening now?" "So you're angry. Good. What does that feel like?" Other people, she would answer their questions. Me, she would say things like "you're not allowed to ask 'why'" or "you think too much" and change the subject. It wasn't that she said "don't question", just that I was asking the wrong things or looking to her for answers I should come up with on my own for them to mean anything. We were to 'pay attention' all the time, not just when we were 'meditating'. I think you might have liked her. I think if I saw her today, she would still be saying the same things to me. It does seem that the more I learn, the less I know. Or the more I know I'm ignorant, as you said. I get frustrated now when I go to my meditation group because I think they should know the things I have been learning about and I don't know how to explain the teachings to them or they say they don't want to know all that 'hard core stuff'... they just want to be more happy in their daily life. I think what you're calling 'attached to peace'. For some of my other friends, the answer to everything is just to chant more and that no other knowledge has any purpose. Anyway, you told me off-list not to be too concerned about certain things and I want to thank you for making me take another look at myself and my attachments. I still care, but I realize that I can only do what I think is right and do the best I can with that. What other people do is up to them and I can care without being all tied up and putting more things into my stories. As they say, "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear." As you said, it is up to our accumulations. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Best wishes, connie 20059 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 5:14pm Subject: thanks for the laugh dear New Yorkers, have to say I enjoyed this ~ Robert: "Anatta day, anatta dollar". Howard: "If ya got anicca, ya gotta scratch it!!" I guess Bhante might say "laughter is good metta-cine". peace, connie 20060 From: royhgordon Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 5:34pm Subject: Re: numerical discourses on karma Steve, Thank you! Roy --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500 " wrote: > Hi Roy and All > It seems this site has a complete english translation > of the Anguttara Nikaya on it, which was a delight to find. :0) > > http://www.metta.lk/ > > Take care > Steve > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "royhgordon " > wrote: > > In the Numerical Discourses in the section of fours there are three > > discourse on karma: > > > > Four Kinds of Kamma > > > > Four Upadanas > > > > Four Constituents of the Body (in particular, Kammaja rupa) > > > > Does anyone know if these are available on line? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Roy 20061 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 6:29pm Subject: Re: Modesty Hi Christine, I think modesty is a wholesome personal quality, a wholesome way of being and living and is aligned with the teaching of the Buddha. I don't think being modest is a form of conceit, and I would think it is hard for one who is not modest to live in accordance with the Buddha's teaching. I am thinking about the questions: In what ways is modesty wholesome? And what is the benefit of being modest? What do you think? Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello Victor, > > I looked up the Gotami Sutta 'To Gotami' in the Anguttara Nikaya > VIII.53 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-053.html > "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to > dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being > fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self- > aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not > to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being > unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely > hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's > instruction.'" > It appears to me that 'modesty' is not a practice in itself (which > could simply be a form of 'mana' conceit), but is part of an end > result. The result is having the qualities that arise in one who has > correct understanding of the Doctrine and the Discipline. What do > you think? > > > metta, > Christine 20062 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Nice to meet you !!! Dear Eddie, Hello! I'm Kiana! That was so nice that you wrote me a letter(quite a suprise!^.^) I am a twelve year old girl that is living in Hong Kong. Can you introduce youself too? I hope you would not mind! I agree that the human nature is here to stay in the past, now or even in the future! On the other hand, I think we need the "Human Nature", because if we have no pain such as when someone treats or did something bad to you, then how can we have gain (the victory)? We should learn when we fall!!! You're right, Buddha is very warm and gentle, I knew that from the sentences or books that they wrote. And can I ask why do you think Buddha is gentle and warm too ? Love , Kiana. 20063 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 10:10pm Subject: Re: Buddhist monks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > I read your writing that you sent to Ki Yong. It was > very interesting to read your reply to Ki Yong about > the American monks. This is my first time writing a > letter to you, so please let me introduce myself. My > name is Se Yeon from Korea. I'm 14 years old. Although > I am Christian, I began to be interested about the > Buddhism. > > I really wantd to know about the monks. Actually, what > is the purpose of the monks? What do they do? Hmm... I > hope you could reply to me and the answers to my > questions. Sorry that my letter is too short. :) > > Thank you. > Se Yeon Hi Star Kid Se Yeon! It is very nice to meet you. Thank you for writing. So, I see that you read the letter I sent to Ki Yong. Did anyone ever tell you that it's against the law to read other people's mail? Hehehe…just kidding ;-) I am glad that you read the letter and that you have more questions about monks. You ask, "Actually, what is the purpose of the monks? What do they do?" A monk's purpose it to live the eightfold path in the best way possible so that they can become enlightened. What they do is practice the eightfold path and they teach that path to others. Let me explain, one doesn't need to be a monk to practice the eightfold path, but it is more difficult to practice as a non-monk because the interaction with other people will corrupt the practice. I hate to say it, but people can be really foolish…and they never seem to learn. I mean, it is hard for me to imagine and accept that in the past people used to make other people their slaves. Could you imagine being someone's slave? Or that you owned slaves? These are real people, just like everyone else, and yet people believed that it was okay to own them…like a dog or a cat. And even though the world has pretty much gotten rid of slavery, there are still many other things in today's world that show how foolish humans can be: crime, racism, sexism, homophobia, child abuse, gangs, insider trading, elderly neglect, terrorist bombings, prostitution, drug abuse, etc., etc., etc.,…the list goes on and on. It is this kind of foolishness of humans that monks get away from. They do everything right that humans can do (or are supposed to anyway) so that they can be the best humans possible. If they do everything right, follow the eightfold path to perfection, they will become enlightened…which is the highest thing a human can do. It is the pinnacle of human achievement. The point is that we all need to try to be the best people we can be, in everyway that we can be. And being the best you can be doesn't mean being rich or famous, it means being wise and compassionate for all things and all people. Things get very complicated when you try to do that as a regular person in the world, but it isn't impossible. I think it comes down to one thing really: Listen to your heart. Love, James 20064 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 4, 2003 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Rob M. I’d like to join in this thread too as it keeps arising and we all keep questioning your comments without specific references;-)I'd like to stress that it's not at all simple for me to understand at any level either: --- "robmoult " wrote: > This is something that I am not clear about. What makes a > kamma, "kamma-patha"? > > I thought that every javana citta created the potential for future > vipaka (when conditions allowed). If I understand Jon correctly, he > disagrees and feels that only certain javana cittas create the > potential for future vipaka. Please help me understand better. ..... Specifically your question also related to whether kamma-patha only (as opposed to any/every javana citta) causes or has the potential for causing moments of ordinary vipaka, such as sense consciousness, I believe. These are not easy questions. Let me start with this quote from Sammohavinodani, comm to Dhammasangani, PTS trnsl, Class. of the Structure of Conditions 681: “Firstly, with the formation of merit of the sense sphere as condition (there arise) the sixteen (kinds of resultant consciousness, namely,)the five profitable resultant beginning with eye-consciousnes, and in respect of mind consciousness, one kind of mind element and two kinds of mind-consciousness element, and the eight kinds of sense-sphere resultant; accordingly as it is said: “Due to profitable kamma of the sense-sphere having been performed, stored up, resultant eye-consciousness arises’ (Dhs 431........” So what is meant by ‘the formation of merit’ here? 645: “Herein, because “it purifies (p.naati) the one who performs it, and it perfects (puureti) his inclination, and it produces an honourable (pujja) state”, it is merit (pu~n~na). Because “it forms result and the kind of materiality due to kamma performed”,(cf Vis 538)it is “formation” (abhisa”nkhara).... ..... In other words, as I understand, when we read in Dependent Origination about “with ignorance as condition, formations ”, it is abhisankhara that are being referred to, i.e. cetana cetaskika acting as kamma condition to bring results. From the Nyantiloka dictionary, under the meaning of sankhara: “1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, (paticcasamuppáda), sankhára has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), speech (vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.). This definition occurs, e.g. at S.XII.2, 27. For s. in this sense, the word 'karma-formation' has been coined by the author. In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined by reference to * (a) meritorious karma-formations (puññ'ábhisankhára), * (b) demeritorious k. (apuññ'abhisankhára), * (c) imperturbable k. (áneñj'ábhisankhára), e.g. in S.XII.51; D.33. This threefold division covers karmic activity in all spheres of existence: the meritorious karma-formations extend to the sensuous and the fine-material sphere, the demeritorious ones only to the sensuous sphere, and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere.” ***** I’d also like to quote from an old post of Num’s on the meaning of sankhara and abhisankhara: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m2506.html “Abhisankrara is cetana cetasika and here is the explanation. ” ***** The Sammohavinodani continues to give more detail about ‘formations of merit and demerit’ bringing results. As Nina mentioned, in the Atthasalini, ch 1V, ‘Discourse on Kamma, V and V1 Courses of Immoral (&Moral) Action’, we can also read all about what determines kamma patha through body, speech and mind in detail, distinguishing between ‘roots’ and ‘courses of action’ (kamma patha liable to bring results). I’d also like to draw your attention to ch14 in K.Sujin’s ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’ http://www.abhidhamma.org/Preface%20to%20paramattha.htm All these areas are discussed in detail with further references, as well as more detail regarding other favourable (sampatti) and unfavourable (vipatti) factors affecting the result of kamma including place and time of birth and so on. I think this is all very relevant to the earlier discussions with Howard and others on kamma and result and the acts of others. Whilst our understanding is so conceptual, it's not easy to understand the working of kamma and vipaka at this moment. I did find the following quote helpful, however,in showing again how any moment of consciousness is not random or under any control, though many questions still remain for me: Sammohavinodani 679: "Here it may be (asked:)"But how is it to be known that this (eye)consciousness of the kind stated has formations as its condition?" Because there is no kamma-result when there is no stored-up kamma. For this (consciousnes) is a kamma-result and kamma-result does not arise in the absence of stored-up kamma. If it did, then all kinds of kamma-resultant (consciousness) would arise for all (kinds of beings); and they do not (so) arise. Thus should it be known that this consciousnes has formations as its condition." ..... Finally, because it is relevant to other discussions on the authenticity of the Abhidhamma, let me add one more quote from the Samohavinodani 648: (On the kinds of abhisankhara (formations)) “...It is permissible to say that it is taken in accordance with the method of the Sammaditthisutta (M i 54)too. For therein it is said: ‘Three, bhikkhus, are the formations. Which three? The bodily formation, the verbal formation and the mental formation. ‘But why are these taken in accordance with these suttas? This Abhidhamma is not newly made; nor is it spoken by sages outside (the dispensation), nor by disciples, nor by deities. But this is spoken by the Omniscient Conqueror. It is in order to illustrate this meaning that a single textual passage is set forth in like manner in the Abhidhamma and in the suttas.” Please let me know, Rob or anyone if anything isn’t clear or if you’d like any further details. Metta, Sarah p.s I quote a lot form Abhidhamma texts when I write to Rob M as he’s an Abhidhamma teacher and I know he appreciates these sources. I’m not suggesting the Star Kids or those who prefer to stick to the suttas should read them;-) ====== 20065 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] numerical discourses on karma Hi Roy, Welcome to DSG. I am very interested to hear any further comments you may wish to share on these discourses, now you have the link to on line versions to quote;-) Hope you enjoy your stay and if we can encourage you to share any details about yourself or your interest in the Dhamma, that would be great. Sounds like you've studied a while. With metta, Sarah ====== --- "royhgordon " wrote: > In the Numerical Discourses in the section of fours there are three > discourse on karma: > > Four Kinds of Kamma > > Four Upadanas > > Four Constituents of the Body (in particular, Kammaja rupa) 20066 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Mike --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > The way you've put this puzzles me though--is > pa~n~naa (or sa.t.tipathaana vipassanaa) kammapatha? Yes. There are 10 akusala- and 10 kusala-kamma-patha, and 3 of each are mental actions (3 are bodily actions and 4 are verbal actions). The mental actions, for akusala/kusala kamma-patha, are: - Covetousness/Unselfishness - Ill-will/Good-will - Evil views/Right views Thus panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana is kusala-kamma-patha. I have pasted below a copy of the entry from Nyanatiloka’s ‘Buddhist Dictionary’ Jon Kamma-patha 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A.X.28, 176; M.9; they are explained in detail in M.114, and in Com. to M.9 (R. Und., p. 14), Atthasálini Tr. I, 126ff. 20067 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... Hi Mike, Greatly appreciating all your contributions...almost like the old days;-) --- "m. nease" wrote: > Just a note: Seems to me that whether we're talking about these odd > descriptions of the Buddha, minced and reconstituted arahats flying > through the air, talking animals or terrorists (American, Arab or > whatever)--whether 'myth' or 'reality', are all papa~nca--but moments of > feeling, thought, various emotions etc. with regard to the papa~nca are > all potentially bases of insight. > > My apologies if I'm just restating the obvious. ..... Before I say anything else, so that it doesn’t sound like some kind of justification (which it might be in part;-)), let me readily admit that much of what I have written on this thread has just been a bit of fun, prompted by lobha and not with any idea of it having any real significance at all. I know for Kom and others, they’ve been trying to help (kusala cittas) answer questions arising, but also don’t take it to be of any ultimate value. Of course it just depends on the cittas at the time, whether the thinking about these stories is kusala or akusala and of course, we all know, there are always more moments of akusala and thereby bound to be papanca (unwise proliferating), always rooted in kilesa as I understand. As you suggest, there is no reason at any of these times why there cannot be awarenes of feeling, thinking or any other reality and therefore, I don’t think we can say there should or shouldn’t be such kind of talk. It reminds me of Nina’s comment she often raises about the dosa she felt when Khun Sujin was talking to our hostess (a long time ago) in Sri Lanka about flowers instead of dhamma. When she appreciated that one can talk about anything with kusala citta and that any topic can be dhamma, she rejoiced instead. (Hope this is accurate, Nina;-)). Sometimes we may have some fun, like in the old funny NY quote Connie fished out of the archives (yes, Connie, keep fishing and sharing - you might find some of Mike’s witty ones too;-)), but unless one really thinks that knowing the height of the Buddha, the details of flying through the air or the other examples you give are of any real value --as some may think, I acknowledge --then I tend to think it’s pretty harmless. How about you? Perhaps this is also back to the question of whether we can say everyday lobha is harmless or not. In truth can we always know the citta and when there are papanca by the topic alone? Also, if a child asks about the height of the Buddha, we can’t very well answer: “that’s just papanca”, can we?? The following extract is from a post I wrote last September on this theme.I hope I’m not misinterpreting your comments and am not intending to make a mountain out of a mole-hill here, though it may sound like it;-) QUOTE earlier post: Sarah: “Antony gave this helpful quote: Ven U Dhamminda said in "Right Speech": "There is another place in the commentaries where it mentions that not all talk about kings and thieves and ministers (and armies, dangers and wars) etc. is idle chatter -it depends on the context in which it is spoken because even the Buddha sometimes he would use them as examples to illustrate a point of Dhamma. So in the context of Dhamma sometimes you have to talk about these things - and talk about food or whatever. So it depends on the context in which it's been spoken - if it is of benefit to somebody in a Dhammic sense in order to teach them some aspect of the Dhamma then you can talk about these things." ***** For most of us, most the time, I think such talk, as Rob M was originally pointing out, is idle chatter or ‘pointless talk’, however much we may try to justify it (as I’m doing now;-)) However, I do think the Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2), with the emphasis on ayoniso & yoniso manasikara (unwise and wise attention) is helpful in this connection: “What are the things unfit for attention that he attends to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire arises in him and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the unarisen taint of being arises in him and the arisen taint of being increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance increases in him and the arisen taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention that he attends to.” ***** B.Bodhi helpfully refers to some commentary notes here: 1.“MA makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention. That mode of attention that is a causal basis for unwholesome states of mind should be avoided, while that mode of attention that is a causal basis for wholesome states should be developed.” 2. “MA illustrates the growth of the taints through unwise attention as follows: When he attends to gratification in the five cords of sensual pleasure, the taint of sensual desire arises and increases; when he attends to gratification in the exalted states (the jhanas), the taint of being arises and increases; and when he attends to any mundane things through the four “perversions” (of permanence, pleasure, self and beautiful etc), the taint of ignorance arises and increases.” 3. “MA says that up to the attainment of the path of stream-entry, attention denotes insight (vipassanaa), but at the moment of the path it dentotes path-knowledge. Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective range is the mental and material phenomena comprised under dukkha and its origin; it can know the latter two truths only inferentially. Path-knowledge makes the truth of cessation its object, apprehending it by penetration as object (aaramma.na)...” “ ***** I’d be glad to hear any further comments of yours, Mike, and apologies if I’ve misunderstood or misconstrued your comments and sentiments. I think it’s an interesting area. Metta Sarah p.s. I’d also sincerely be glad to hear what you made of the details about the Buddha’s height..... ===== 20068 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Jon & Howard, I think the extract from Larry's post pasted below should help. Sarah ***** H:> > I realize that I didn't directly answer this question in my > > previous > > reply. What I mean by a "causal connection" is a relationship the > > four main > > characteristics of which are (taken from Samyutta Nikaya 2.25, and > > as > > reported by Kalupahana) the following: "... objectivity (tathata), > > necessity > > (avitathata), invariability (ana~n~nathata), and conditionality or > > interdependence (idappaccayata). ... > J:> I would like to follow up on these 4 characteristics of a > realtionship that constititute a causal connection (very > interesting), but I've not had any luck finding the sutta. Is there > any other information you can give about it? Thanks. ***** Larry wrote: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15681.html L:>Here is the sutta Kalupahana referenced: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-020.html Below is the relevant section. I inserted the pali. The translation is slightly different: "Now what is dependent co-arising? From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands -- this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality [idappaccayataa]. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death. "From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... "From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming... "From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance... "From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving... "From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling... "From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact... "From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media... "From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form... "From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness... "From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands -- this regularity of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma, this this/that conditionality. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, makes it plain, & says, 'Look.' From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. What's there in this way is a reality [TATHATAA], not an unreality [AVITATHATAA], not other than what it seems [ANA~N~NATHATAA], conditioned by this/that [IDAPPACCAYATAA]. This is called dependent co-arising."< ***** 20069 From: azita gill Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma, a correction --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M. and all, > A correction to be made: Another matter is: do we > understand Dependent > Origination just now, at this very moment? > Nina. > dear Nina, thanx for this reminder. I know I think about it but I guess I don't truely understand it at this present moment. would like to relate a little story - about ants. The other day I was watching some ants run around on the concrete outside my house. I thought how like them we humans are. These ants would first run one way, and then quickly change direction and run another way, backwards and forwards they went, seemingly with no purpose, that I knew about anyway. They are like us and we are like them, bec it is lobha and dosa that conditions the rupa to go here, and then go there, now like this, now dislike that.. I thought how these cetasikas [and others] but these seemed the glaringly obvious ones, that condition the bulk of 'our'day. When I review my daily activities, and ponder on what keeps me doing things, mostly it's lobha and dosa that conditions the rupa I call 'me' to open the fridge, close the fridge, turn on the radio or go for a swim in one of the many beautiful creeks around Cairns, and on and on and on it goes!!!! And all the time it is 'me' doing this, 'I' go there' aren't I good, aren't I bad. > thank you to all you dsg-ers for the time and effort put into these wonderful and useful posts. Don't forget: conditions rule.OK? May we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer Azita 20070 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 3:43am Subject: Re: Modesty Hi Victor, I think being modest in the sense of only obtaining sufficient food, money, clothing, and housing (not excessive in amount or cost) could be wholesome in that it doesn't cause greed in oneself or envy in others. If widely practised, this sort of modesty could lead to a wiser use of the world's resources. Modesty in desires might lead one to detachment not attachment - (unless one was attached to the idea of 'being a modest person'). I think being modest in speech could be wholesome in that it doesn't arouse jealousy or anger in others. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I think modesty is a wholesome personal quality, a wholesome way of > being and living and is aligned with the teaching of the Buddha. I > don't think being modest is a form of conceit, and I would think it > is hard for one who is not modest to live in accordance with the > Buddha's teaching. > > I am thinking about the questions: In what ways is modesty > wholesome? And what is the benefit of being modest? What do you > think? > > Regards, > Victor > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Hello Victor, > > > > I looked up the Gotami Sutta 'To Gotami' in the Anguttara Nikaya > > VIII.53 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-053.html > > "As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead > to > > dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being > > fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to > self- > > aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, > not > > to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being > > unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely > > hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the > Teacher's > > instruction.'" > > It appears to me that 'modesty' is not a practice in itself > (which > > could simply be a form of 'mana' conceit), but is part of an end > > result. The result is having the qualities that arise in one who > has > > correct understanding of the Doctrine and the Discipline. What do > > you think? > > > > > > metta, > > Christine 20071 From: m. nease Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Hi Jon, > > The way you've put this puzzles me though--is > > pa~n~naa (or sa.t.tipathaana vipassanaa) kammapatha? > > Yes. There are 10 akusala- and 10 kusala-kamma-patha, and 3 of each > are mental actions (3 are bodily actions and 4 are verbal actions). > > The mental actions, for akusala/kusala kamma-patha, are: > - Covetousness/Unselfishness > - Ill-will/Good-will > - Evil views/Right views > > Thus panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana is > kusala-kamma-patha. I'm afraid I'm being dense--I still don't get it. Is it because the cetasikas unselfishness, good-will and right views, always arise with pa~n~naa of the level of satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa? Thanks again for the kammapatha definition. mike 20072 From: m. nease Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Height of the Buddha (was: Janice's letter (long posts with Jataka ... Hi Sarah, > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Just a note: Seems to me > > that whether we're talking about these odd > > descriptions of the Buddha, minced and reconstituted arahats flying > > through the air, talking animals or terrorists (American, Arab or > > whatever)--whether 'myth' or 'reality', are all papa~nca--but moments of > > feeling, thought, various emotions etc. with regard to the papa~nca are > > all potentially bases of insight. > > > > My apologies if I'm just restating the obvious. > ..... > Before I say anything else, so that it doesn't sound like some kind of > justification (which it might be in part;-)), let me readily admit that > much of what I have written on this thread has just been a bit of fun, > prompted by lobha and not with any idea of it having any real significance > at all. I know for Kom and others, they've been trying to help (kusala > cittas) answer questions arising, but also don't take it to be of any > ultimate value. I didn't mean to criticize any of the posts on this thread at all, or of the topic(s). > Of course it just depends on the cittas at the time, whether the thinking > about these stories is kusala or akusala and of course, we all know, there > are always more moments of akusala and thereby bound to be papanca (unwise > proliferating), always rooted in kilesa as I understand. As you suggest, > there is no reason at any of these times why there cannot be awarenes of > feeling, thinking or any other reality and therefore, I don't think we can > say there should or shouldn't be such kind of talk. Neither do I. > It reminds me of Nina's comment she often raises about the dosa she felt > when Khun Sujin was talking to our hostess (a long time ago) in Sri Lanka > about flowers instead of dhamma. When she appreciated that one can talk > about anything with kusala citta and that any topic can be dhamma, she > rejoiced instead. (Hope this is accurate, Nina;-)). Sure... > Sometimes we may have some fun, like in the old funny NY quote Connie > fished out of the archives (yes, Connie, keep fishing and sharing - you > might find some of Mike's witty ones too;-)), but unless one really thinks > that knowing the height of the Buddha, the details of flying through the > air or the other examples you give are of any real value --as some may > think, I acknowledge --then I tend to think it's pretty harmless. How > about you? Yes, seems pretty harmless to me, too. > Perhaps this is also back to the question of whether we can say > everyday lobha is harmless or not. To my way of thinking the enormity of the problem simply of liking and disliking (always with ignorance) can't be overstated. > In truth can we always know the citta > and when there are papanca by the topic alone? Of course not--I never meant to imply this. > Also, if a child asks about the height of the Buddha, we can't very well > answer: "that's just papanca", can we?? > The following extract is from a post I wrote last September on this > theme.I hope I'm not misinterpreting your comments and am not intending to > make a mountain out of a mole-hill here, though it may sound like it;-) > > QUOTE earlier post: > > Sarah: > "Antony gave this helpful quote: > Ven U Dhamminda said in "Right Speech": > > "There is another place in the commentaries where it mentions that not all > talk about kings and thieves and ministers (and armies, dangers and wars) > etc. is idle chatter -it depends on the context in which it is spoken > because even the Buddha sometimes he would use them as examples to > illustrate a point of Dhamma. So in the context of Dhamma sometimes you > have to talk about these things - and talk about food or whatever. So it > depends on the context in which it's been spoken - if it is of benefit to > somebody in a Dhammic sense in order to teach them some aspect of the > Dhamma then you can talk about these things." Agreed... > For most of us, most the time, I think such talk, as Rob M was originally > pointing out, is idle chatter or 'pointless talk', however much we may try > to justify it (as I'm doing now;-)) > > However, I do think the Sabbasava Sutta (MN 2), with the emphasis on > ayoniso & yoniso manasikara (unwise and wise attention) is helpful in this > connection: > > "What are the things unfit for attention that he attends to? They are > things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual > desire arises in him and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the > unarisen taint of being arises in him and the arisen taint of being > increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance increases in him and the arisen > taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention > that he attends to." Yes, this is an old favorite of mine. Thanks for the reminder. > I'd be glad to hear any further comments of yours, Mike, and apologies if > I've misunderstood or misconstrued your comments and sentiments. Not sure! > I think > it's an interesting area. > Metta > > Sarah > p.s. I'd also sincerely be glad to hear what you made of the details about the > Buddha's height..... This aspect of Dhamma has never really interested me, to tell you the truth. I tend to kind of skip over puzzles I don't think I can verify. Thanks for your thoughtful response. mike 20073 From: nidive Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 7:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight.special practice? Hi Nina, > These texts pertain to Sariputta and Moggalana, and to the attainments > of the four Paths. I don't think these texts pertain to only these two Chief Disciples. I don't think I am reading some private stuff between them when I read this sutta. > I do not think with regard to myself of painful suppression of defilements > right now. We are slow, slow slow anyway. What do you understand by the second stage of purification (citta visuddhi or Purification of Mind)? My understanding is that hindrances can be suppressed successfully in the practitioner in this stage of purification. > Nina: Since I do not have his book, only the Wheel, a shorter publication, > could you give me this title of M, so that I look up the co? Shall I send the PDF document to you? I think it will be much simpler this way. It's about 1.4 MB. Or shall I post it on the section Files in this group? > It all grows naturally, so long as we do not try, wish, have attachment > to many moments of sati, all that is counteractive. > In the Theritheragatha we find examples of attainment of enlightenment in > daily life, such as a Theri who fell down, and realized the Truth, another > woman in the kitchen who had her curry burnt in the oven, it reminded her of > impermanence, then and there. Khemaka was preaching Dhamma and attained. > They did not go apart to concentrate on the three characteristics. Did not Ananda practise "ferociously" prior to the commencement of the First Council, of which Venerable Maha-Kassapa reserved an arahant seat for him? Wasn't he trying (and probably wishing with lobha) that he would attain arahantship before the commencement of the First Council? Although he achieved arahantship not while practising but while he was lying down (to go to sleep?), can it be rightly said that his prior "ferocious" practice did not condition the Maggas to arise eventually? If a sotapanna such as Ananda is "trying", why shouldn't worldlings? Although one might not attain Magga while "trying", but don't you think that this "trying" could very well be the major condition that leads to Magga when one is "not trying"? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 20074 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg]the noting Dear Sarah, I find this in particular very helpful. Awareness of visible object and still an idea of, I have to note this. Then the reality could be lobha, thinking with lobha, or even aversion, some slight uneasiness that visible object is so difficult. Or "omaana"(minority) conceit: poor me, I am so ignorant, thus, clinging to the importance of self. Or ati-maana(superiority) conceit: hey, I make some progress.No end to all the different kilesas, but good to know. I am grateful for any reminder, with appreciation, Nina. op 04-03-2003 13:29 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I think the realities to be known are in a > way very obvious and simple - just as they’ve always been, but covered up > by moha(ignorance). > > I tend to think that the reason there is so little awareness relates to > the lack of understanding of anatta. Even though visible object is in > front of our eyes at this moment, whilst there is any idea of doing’ or > practising’ or noting’ now, there won’t be conditions for awareness to > arise. Just an idea. 20075 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Hi Mike, op 04-03-2003 16:11 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > The way you've put this puzzles me though--is pa~n~naa (or > sa.t.tipathaana vipassanaa) kammapatha? Nina: It is bhavana kusala kamma. I asked A. Sujin once whether kusala citta is kusala kamma, and here was a detailed answer: we may like to give but kusala citta is so weak, we do not follow up, that is not kusala kamma. But in other cases: kusala citta is often kusala kamma, like: studying and being aware, as Jon said. But she also sometimes said: do not try to pinpoint everything, or try to measure everything. Nina. 20076 From: Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Hi, Mike (and Jon) - In a message dated 3/5/03 10:18:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@z... writes: > Hi Jon, > > >> The way you've put this puzzles me though--is > >>pa~n~naa (or sa.t.tipathaana vipassanaa) kammapatha? > > > >Yes. There are 10 akusala- and 10 kusala-kamma-patha, and 3 of each > >are mental actions (3 are bodily actions and 4 are verbal actions). > > > >The mental actions, for akusala/kusala kamma-patha, are: > >- Covetousness/Unselfishness > >- Ill-will/Good-will > >- Evil views/Right views > > > >Thus panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana is > >kusala-kamma-patha. > > I'm afraid I'm being dense--I still don't get it. Is it because the > cetasikas unselfishness, good-will and right views, always arise with > pa~n~naa of the level of satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa? > > Thanks again for the kammapatha definition. > > mike > ============================ Might the idea be that wisdom = right view? (I know that the term 'right view' has a conventional flavor to it, but I suspect that as a path factor it means exactly supramundane wisdom/insight. Likewise, I suppose "evil view" needs to be identified with moha.) BTW, in looking over Nyanatiloka's definition of kammapatha, the *physical* courses of action are all macroscopic, conventional phenomena, but the mental ones appear to all be cetasikas - concomitant functions participating in and supporting the discerning of an object during a mindstate (citta). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20077 From: Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 5:47am Subject: Dreams, Thoughts, and Self Hi, all - While dreaming last night I realized during the dream, and upon awakening, that I had been thinking about things during the dream in exactly the same way thoughts arise and fall while awake, and with exactly the same degree of the sense of "me" initiating (or not initiating) the thoughts. I experienced no difference in the flow of thoughts from that in the waking state. Now, we are used to realizing that the ordinary flow of non-thought experiences (sights, sounds, smells, textures, etc) simply goes by on its own, not directly, intentionally created by the mind, but "given", as it were, "by nature". But we often think of "our thoughts" as being intentionally created by "us". The fact that thinking occurs in just the same way during a dream as while awake suggests to me that our trains of thought are just as much "given by nature" as all the rest of our experience, and that it is *all* just empty, impersonal phenomena rolling on. This is not to say that cetana is not a major factor in all of this. It certainly is - it is a primary motive force, and, at the macroscopic, conventional level of understanding, there is the appearance of that cetana being "the action of an agent", an agent exercising volition. But that action-of-an-agent view is in error. It is well and good to speak in such terms as a matter of convenience and mere convention, but it shouldn't be taken literally. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20078 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: Modesty Hi Christine, I agree with you, and I think the benefit of modesty is an ease of mind for self and others. I think excessiveness and self- aggrandizement always creates tension in one's own mind or others'. I think modesty is a peaceful quality in behavior and expression. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > I think being modest in the sense of only obtaining sufficient food, > money, clothing, and housing (not excessive in amount or cost) could > be wholesome in that it doesn't cause greed in oneself or envy in > others. If widely practised, this sort of modesty could lead to a > wiser use of the world's resources. Modesty in desires might lead > one to detachment not attachment - (unless one was attached to the > idea of 'being a modest person'). I think being modest in speech > could be wholesome in that it doesn't arouse jealousy or anger in > others. > > metta, > Christine 20079 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 9:21pm Subject: get-togethers i All, 1. Bangkok Apr 25th-27th In case anyone missed my other note, this is to say we’ll be joining K.Sujin, Rob M (we hope), Sukin and other friends from DSG for discussion. 2. 4th or 5th Sept in San Francisco and cruise to Alaska from Seattle (7th-14th Sept) Friends in SF (inc. Kom) have invited K.Sujin to give talks and go on a 7 day cruise. We’ll (& prob. Christine) be joining them for a couple of days in SF and the cruise. K.Sujin and many of the group will remain for another week in SF. ..... If you have any interest in 1), pls contact Sukin or myself If you have any interest in 2), pls contact Kom or myself for more details. Of course, we’d love to meet anyone we’ve been talking to (or even not talking to;-)) Metta, Sarah (& Jon) p.s I believe that friends in SF are presently negotiating a good group deal for the cruise. They will need deposits for this v.soon, so let someone know asap if you have any interest. For Bkk or SF, last minute is fine. ================================= 20080 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Modesty Hi Victor & Christine, H --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I agree with you, and I think the benefit of modesty is an ease of > mind for self and others. I think excessiveness and self- > aggrandizement always creates tension in one's own mind or others'. > I think modesty is a peaceful quality in behavior and expression. ..... This is an interesting thread. Perhaps when I think of modesty as a wholesome quality, I think of the opposite of mana (conceit)and in particular, the opposite of ‘flaunting a flag’ and the expressions in this quote from the Atthasalini (bk 11, Part 11, ch2, 372) on conceit: “ “Conceit”, “overweening” and “conceitedness” signify mode and state. “Loftiness” is in the sense of rising upwards or of springing over others. “haughtiness”, i.e. in whom conceit arises, him it lifts up, keeps upraised. “Flaunting a flag” is in the sense of swelling above others. “Assumption’ means uplifting; conceit favours the mind all round. Of many flags the flag which raises above others is called a banner. So conceit arising repeatedly in the sense of excelling with reference to subsequent conceits is like a banner. That mind which desires the banner is said to be desirous of the banner (i.e. , self-advertisement). Such a state is desire for elf-advertisement......” ..... In other words, perhaps we can say that modesty in this sense is the opposite to clinging to self and finding oneself important. What do you think? ..... I thought the latest installment from Nina’s translation of Rahulavaada Sutta commentary gave a good example of the sense of the meaning I’m trying to convey. Here is the last paragraph again: “However, the following thoughts did not occur to the venerable Rahula: ‘Although the Blessed One knows that I am left behind in the monastery, he has not, after he has personally received alsmfood, taken it and come himself, nor did he send me food (by the hand of) through someone else, nor indeed did my preceptor do anything at all, although he knows that I am left behind. Why should there be conditions for the arising of self-disrespect (omaana.m) or pride (atimaana.m)?’ ” ***** I’ll be glad to hear both your further comments. Metta, Sarah ===== 20081 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > When we think of anything (whether a tree or hardness), the > object of > > consciousness at that moment is purely mind-created. It may > refer to > > a dhamma or to another concept, but this does not mean that the > > thought itself shares any of the characteristics of what is being > > conceptualised about. > > > > When hardness is experienced (as it is at the present moment), > the > > object of consciousness is a dhamma. That dhamma must have > arisen in > > order for it to become the object of consciousness at that > moment. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I basically agree with you, Jon. What you are raising here, > however, > isn't the issue at hand. The issue was that concepts, like all > conditioned > things, arise and pass away. That was all I was discussing. > --------------------------------------------------- Yes, that's what I understood you to be saying. But I was trying to make the point that something that is purely mind-created (and has no sabhava) cannot be said to arise and pass away. At the very least, and not to get hung up on terminology, if it can be said to arise and pass away, it would not do so in the same sense that that can be said of something that exists independently of the mind and arises before the consciousness that experiences it (and has sabhava). The distinction between dhammas (such as hardness, seeing consciousness, feeling) and concepts (mere mind-created images/labels) is crucial to the development of insight, as I understand the texts -- but this is another issue, I know ;-)). Jon 20082 From: Star Kid Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 3:49am Subject: Pali Dear Christine, Your answers from the last letter was very useful, although I do have some more questions.Is Pali still a living language? What does sunakh, suvaana, saarameya, and kukkura mean? The Kamma teaching sounds like a very good way of teaching people to be good. It must be hard to have nothing in your Kamma suitcase. Thanks again for your answers. Metta, Hilary 20083 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 5:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Modesty Thanks, Sarah, This (especially the material from Atthasaalinii) is good and useful I think. Personally, though, I don't believe in elves (stodgy me as usual). If they do exist, I don't think they should advertise--just my opinion. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Modesty > Such a > state is desire for elf-advertisement......" 20084 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)Anattta and Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment (Again found this in my 'outbox' apparently unsent (an 'Outlook' problem I think) --my apologies if it's been posted before). Dear Rob & Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- > > p.s. I'm not familiar with Sammohavinodani--part of the > > Abhidhammapitaka? ________________________ > DEAR Mike, > It is the commentary to the Vibhanga of the Abhidhamma and is translated in 2 > volumes as Dispeller of Delusion- a very apt name. > Worth buying from Pali Text Society. > Robert ________________________ Yes, I'm familiar with it by the English title and have considered buying it before. Will do when I can manage it (and also Atthasaalinii). ________________________ I agree with Rob's comments about the value of this Abhidhamma commentary. ________________________ So do I. By the way, I don't doubt the validity of 'no-control' or 'powerlessness' (obviously implicit in anatta)--just think they need to be very well- (and repeatedly) documented because of the relative scarcity of their specific mention in the Suttapitaka & Vinayapitaka. ________________________ > I overlooked the last part of your post: -In Pali, I've found > for 'powerless': abala; dubbala; asamattha; Metta, Sarah p.s Good to see your keen interest again. ________________________ Thanks Sarah--never lost it. ________________________ mike 20085 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Howard and Jon, > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I basically agree with you, Jon. What you are raising here, > > however, isn't the issue at hand. The issue was that concepts, like all > > conditioned things, arise and pass away. That was all I was discussing. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, that's what I understood you to be saying. But I was trying to make the point > that something that is purely mind-created (and has no sabhava) cannot be said to > arise and pass away. This has come up before and I basically agree with you both. I agree with Howard that, in a sense, concepts arise and fall away (this is easily experienced in retrospect at least). It seems to me that the difference between concepts (pa.n.natti, without sabhaava), and paramattha dhammas (with sabhaava), is, most importantly, that the latter can be the bases of insight of the degree of satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa and the former can't. On the other hand, it also seems to me that only pa.n.natti, maybe, can be the the basis of conventional (conceptual) insight? (Potentially confusing to use the word 'insight' in this context--maybe something like 'theoretical understanding' would be better). If so, this seems to me to suggest a useful distinction between conventional (or theoretical) view (right or wrong) and view as a path-factor (right or wrong). Aren't both theoretical right view and right view as a path factor necessary to bhaavanaa? I'm sure we've been over all this ground before--just thinking out loud. mike 20086 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Dear Nina, > > The way you've put this puzzles me though--is pa~n~naa (or > > sa.t.tipathaana vipassanaa) kammapatha? > Nina: It is bhavana kusala kamma. Thanks, that clarifies it, I THINK. It strikes me that (the concept of) bhaavanaa is peculiarly susceptible to attadi.t.thi. Since this is so often translated as 'cultivation' (I like 'development' better--less personal) it seems hard to separate it from someone doing the cultivating. In other words, easy to theoretically recognize anatta in dhammas except when it comes to cultivation--then it's something for 'me' to do. mike 20087 From: robmoult Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 6:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Nina, Sorry for the delay in responding. I was very busy in Bangkok, but I did have time for an excellent dinner with Betty and Num. Nice people, I hope to meet up with them again in a couple of weeks and then again on April 25th. I hope that you come back to visit Thailand again soon. I don't know what happened to me; why I would ask a question like, "what makes a kamma, 'kamma-patha'?" I know the answer and have even discussed it on DSG in the past. Kamma-patha is "completed" kamma; whereby a certain set of conditons are met. Kamma-patha has sufficient kammic potential to act as a rebirth linking kamma, but can certainly arise under other conditions. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > op 02-03-2003 06:49 schreef robmoult op > rob.moult@j...: > > > This is something that I am not clear about. What makes a > > kamma, "kamma-patha"? > > > > I thought that every javana citta created the potential for future > > vipaka (when conditions allowed). If I understand Jon correctly, he > > disagrees and feels that only certain javana cittas create the > > potential for future vipaka. Please help me understand better. > Nina: I think you know the texts of the Atth, where it is explained that > certain factors make kamma a kamma patha. Like in the case of killing, etc. > We had many posts on this subject, also long ago. Num warned: kamma is the > field of the Buddhas. We have a few explanations from Tipita and Co, but it > does not help to go on reasoning. A. Sujin will say: through satipatthana > you will understand. What about this moment: is it kusala, akusala, vipaka, > kiriya? > You need not worry when you think, in a minute I shall have a delicious > dessert, or, what a long flight, I feel so tired (dosa). You know that this > is not akusala kamma patha. > But we know so little about this moment, the characteristic of kusala or > akusala is not clearly understood. We are not sure about the characteristic > of seeing, and thus, how can we clearly understand vipaka? > If you get this post in time, you could bring it up, also the free will and > control, in case you have still doubts. I hope you meet A. Sujin. Tell us > all, > I wish you a very fruitful time, > Nina. 20088 From: Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/6/03 6:14:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > >Howard: > > I basically agree with you, Jon. What you are raising here, > >however, > >isn't the issue at hand. The issue was that concepts, like all > >conditioned > >things, arise and pass away. That was all I was discussing. > >--------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, that's what I understood you to be saying. But I was trying to > make the point that something that is purely mind-created (and has no > sabhava) cannot be said to arise and pass away. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I cannot for the life of me understand why that would be the case UNLESS we are not talking about the same thing. (Actually, I think we are NOT speaking about the same thing.) When I speak of a concept, I mean a thought/idea arising via the mind door as the result of mental fabrication; I do NOT refer to its intended referent which, indeed, is not present and thus neither arose nor will cease. When I "see a tree", as I do right now looking out the window, the concept (i.e. thought/idea) of 'tree' is repeatedly arising, ceasing, rearising, ceasing again ..., and is being "superimposed" by the mind (by complex sankharic functions) on the sequence of actual visual images experienced. The alleged tree, itself, is, upon careful examination, nowhere to be found. We can *say*, as the vinjaptimatrins do, that it is concept-only in the sense that the concept (thought/idea) is present, and the mental construct that is a hybrid construct mentally built from that concept and a series of visual rupas is present, but no physical object called "tree" is present at all. Does this clarify matters, Jon? --------------------------------------------------- > > > At the very least, and not to get hung up on terminology, if it can > be said to arise and pass away, it would not do so in the same sense > that that can be said of something that exists independently of the > mind and arises before the consciousness that experiences it (and has > sabhava). > > The distinction between dhammas (such as hardness, seeing > consciousness, feeling) and concepts (mere mind-created > images/labels) is crucial to the development of insight, as I > understand the texts -- but this is another issue, I know ;-)). > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I understand the distinction quite well, really. ------------------------------------------------ > > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20089 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) op 05-03-2003 16:13 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Thus panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana is >> kusala-kamma-patha. > > I'm afraid I'm being dense--I still don't get it. Is it because the > cetasikas unselfishness, good-will and right views, always arise with > pa~n~naa of the level of satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa? > Dear Mike, The teaching of this Path is very rare, only Buddhas teach it. It is the most precious teaching. The development of pa~n~naa of the level of satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa, is kusala kamma. You develop the Path the Buddha taught, leading to understanding the true nature of paramattha dhammas and to the eradication of defilements. Even though we just begin, it is kusala kamma. Nina 20090 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] the central problem, dependent origination. Hi iIke, op 04-03-2003 19:54 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > That's the conclusion I've come to too, but-- > >N: each moment is succeeded by a following moment, I do >> not see accumulation to occur by volitional action. > M: --maybe I've been confusing kamma paccaya with kamma as cetanaa cetasika > (sorry, I'm very rusty on all this). I may have been confusing the > accumulation of kamma with the accumulation of defilements. Two completely > separate kinds of accumulation? N:Kamma is one condition: it conditions vipaka, when the time is ripe, kilesa is another type of condition: it conditions the arising of akusala citta by way of upanissaya paccaya, dependence condition, and at that natural strong dependence condition. Accumulation from moment to moment occurs because each citta that falls away is succeeded by a next one. I just wrote something about this subject for Pali yahoo: N:>> Thus, so much akusala just now. The only thing that can be done is: > knowing >> it, realizing it as a conditioned reality. Not suppressing it, or having >> anxiety about it, then we accumulate even more dosa. > >M:Agreed--though of course we can't decide whether we want to suppress or be > anxious about (especially) dislike-rooted citta, accompanied by unpleasant > feeling (dosa-múla-citta domanassa-sahagataÿ paìigha-sampayuttaÿ) with anger > because of the resultant desire to get rid of the unpleasant feeling (and > anger?). Anxiety or the desire to suppress arises according to conditions, > in other words. N: Yes this is also conditioned. M p.s. Off-list, can you read the Pali diacriticals in this post? N: no, only a few. Not paìigha-sampayuttaÿ. I have outlook, but tools options, I give up, thanks anyway. Nina 20091 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 10:03am Subject: Perfections, Ch 8, Truthfulness, no 1 Perfections, Ch 8, Truthfulness, no 1 by Acharn Sujin The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² defines the perfection of truthfulness, as follows: Truthfulness has the characteristic of non-deceptiveness in speech; its function is to verify in accordance with fact; its manifestation is excellence; honesty is its proximate cause. The perfection of truthfulness, sacca påramí, is sincerity and truthfulness with regard to realities. It means truthfulness through body, speech and mind. In order to realize the four noble Truths, one should be truthful, sincere, with regard to oneself, and this means, truthful with regard to the realities which appear just as they are. Kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala; they cannot be otherwise, no matter whether they arise in oneself or in someone else. If we see the disadvantage of untruth and falsity, we shall further develop the perfection of truthfulness. In the Tipiìaka deceitful speech is compared to beansoup 1 , because when one cooks beansoup, some beans are cooked while others are not cooked. When eating, one comes sometimes across hard beans which are not cooked. It is the same with speech: when a person speaks a great deal, some deceptive words may permeate his speech. Or it may also happen that everything he says is true, from the first word until the last. We can only know with regard to ourselves when we are insincere and when truthful. It is paññå that knows akusala as akusala. We may begin to see that akusala is ugly, that it is wrong. Paññå that is of a higher degree can abandon akusala so that it decreases. However, if one does not see the disadvantage and the danger of akusala dhammas, akusala will only increase. The realization of the four noble Truths leads to the eradication of defilements, but in order to realize the four noble Truths we should be truthful in action, speech and mind. Akusala dhammas arise because of their appropriate conditions. If sati arises, it can at such moments be aware of the characteristic of akusala dhamma and in this way akusala can be given up. We should not delay being aware of the characteristic of the dhamma that naturally appears so that it can be known as it is. When akusala appears and there is awareness of it, we can immediately let go of it. We have a great deal of defilements and without the support of the perfections it is impossible to penetrate the four noble Truths, to become a ³streamwinner², sotåpanna, who will not be reborn more than seven times before the attainment of arahatship. Even Såriputta, who had paññå of the degree of a chief disciple, developed the perfections during one incalculable period and a hundred thousand aeons so that he could become a sotåpanna. He could, because he had accumulated the perfections for such a long time, become an arahat fifteen days after he had attained the stage of sotåpanna. 20092 From: Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 3:32pm Subject: Way 59, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 75 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html [Tika] Low [omatta] = Negligible [avamatta], poor in regard to standard [lamakappamana]. [T] Since the process of caloricity with (its cognate process) oscillation coming (as a servant or follower) behind it [vayo dhatuya anugata tejo dhatu] is the condition for upraising [uddharanassa paccayo], caloricity and oscillation are in preponderance, by reason of capability, in the action of upraising. Caloricity is specially conducive to the action of upraising and so in upraising oscillation is subordinate to caloricity. The processes of extension and cohesion are low in the action of upraising owing to their incapacity to raise up. [T] Since the process of oscillation with (its cognate process) caloricity coming (as a servant or follower) behind it [tejo dhatuya anugata vayo dhatu] is the condition for stretching out and shifting away [atiharana vitiharananam paccayo], oscillation and caloricity are in preponderance by reason of capability, in stretching out and shifting away. Oscillation is naturally active and because in the actions of stretching out and shifting away its movement is excessive, caloricity is subordinate to oscillation in these actions. The other two processes are low in stretching out and shifting away because of the incapacity of these processes to stretch out and to shift away. [T] Raising up is the lifting of a foot from a place already stepped on to. [T] Stretching out is the carrying of a foot to the front from the place on which one is standing. [T] Shifting away is the carrying of a foot sidewards (by moving it laterally) for the purpose of avoiding stake and the like or for avoiding contact with the other foot already set on the ground. [T] Or stretching out is the carrying of a foot (near) to the place where the other foot is set and shifting away is the carrying of a foot further to a point beyond the place on which the other foot is. [T] Since the process of cohesion with (its cognate process) extension coming (as a servant or follower) behind it [pathavi dhatuya anugata apodhatu] is the condition for dropping down [vossajjane paccayo], cohesion and extension are in preponderance by reason of capability in the action of dropping down. The nature of cohesion is most gravid and so in the laying down of an upraised foot extension is subordinate to cohesion. Because of their incapacity to drop down what is upraised the processes of caloricity and oscillation are called low in this connection. [T] Since the process of extension with (its cognate process) cohesion coming (as a servant or follower) behind it [apodhatuya anugata pathavidhatu] is the condition for the keeping (of a foot) on the ground, extension and cohesion are in preponderance by reason of capability, in the keeping (of a foot) on the ground. In keeping the foot on the ground too, as in the state of something fixed, cohesion is subordinate to extension owing to the excessive functioning of the latter process. [T] Cohesion is subordinate to extension also by way of the contactual action of the process of extension in pressing the foot against the ground. [T] And here dropping down is lowering by way of relinguishment or laying down. The setting down, thence, of the foot on the ground and so forth is keeping the foot on the ground. After keeping the foot on the ground, the coming to a complete standstill of the action of going, by way of contacting is pressing the foot against the ground. [T] There = In this going forward or among the six aforesaid divisions known as raising up, stretching out, shifting away, dropping down, keeping down, and pressing against. [T] In raising up = In the moment of upraising. Material and mental phenomena = The material phenomena proceeding in the form of upraising (or through the mode of upraising), and the mental phenomena originating that materiality do not occur in stretching out by reason of their existing only for a moment. Throughout, this is the method of exegesis in this passage. [T] Just in these places = Wherever, in the divisions beginning with upraising, phenomena come to be, just in those very places, they perish. To be sure, owing to swift change there is no going over of phenomena to another place. [T] Sections = Division. Links = Joints. Parts = Portions. And all here is stated concerning the abovementioned divisions of the action of going which take place in the form of a differentiated serial process. 20093 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 5:30pm Subject: Re: Dreams, Thoughts, and Self -- - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Now, we are used to realizing that the ordinary flow of non-thought > experiences (sights, sounds, smells, textures, etc) simply goes by on its > own, not directly, intentionally created by the mind, but "given", as it > were, "by nature". But we often think of "our thoughts" as being > intentionally created by "us". The fact that thinking occurs in just the same > way during a dream as while awake suggests to me that our trains of thought > are just as much "given by nature" as all the rest of our experience, and > that it is *all* just empty, impersonal phenomena rolling on. ___________ Dear Howard, I consider this an important aspect of the Dhamma. All of these moments - whether vipaka (seeing, hearing, tasting, touching..) or kusala or akusala -are conditioned. A good point to bring up. RobertK This is not to > say that cetana is not a major factor in all of this. It certainly is - it is > a primary motive force, and, at the macroscopic, conventional level of > understanding, there is the appearance of that cetana being "the action of an > agent", an agent exercising volition. But that action-of-an-agent view is in > error. It is well and good to speak in such terms as a matter of convenience > and mere convention, but it shouldn't be taken literally. > > With metta, > Howard 20094 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dreams, Thoughts, and Self Thanks for this, Howard. I particularly liked the way you put it when you said: > But that [cetana as] action-of-an-agent view is in > error. It is well and good to speak in such terms as a matter of > convenience and mere convention, but it shouldn't be taken > literally. As we know, the Buddha made use of these conventional expressions when addressing those whom he knew would not take his message literally; but in this day and age it seems that much more explanation is needed before the underlying meaning can be appreciated (in my own case, anyway). Reminders of these points are always appreciated. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > While dreaming last night I realized during the dream, and > upon > awakening, that I had been thinking about things during the dream > in exactly > the same way thoughts arise and fall while awake, and with exactly > the same > degree of the sense of "me" initiating (or not initiating) the > thoughts. I > experienced no difference in the flow of thoughts from that in the > waking > state. > Now, we are used to realizing that the ordinary flow of > non-thought > experiences (sights, sounds, smells, textures, etc) simply goes by > on its > own, not directly, intentionally created by the mind, but "given", > as it > were, "by nature". But we often think of "our thoughts" as being > intentionally created by "us". The fact that thinking occurs in > just the same > way during a dream as while awake suggests to me that our trains of > thought > are just as much "given by nature" as all the rest of our > experience, and > that it is *all* just empty, impersonal phenomena rolling on. This > is not to > say that cetana is not a major factor in all of this. It certainly > is - it is > a primary motive force, and, at the macroscopic, conventional level > of > understanding, there is the appearance of that cetana being "the > action of an > agent", an agent exercising volition. But that action-of-an-agent > view is in > error. It is well and good to speak in such terms as a matter of > convenience > and mere convention, but it shouldn't be taken literally. > > With metta, > Howard 20095 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 11:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Hi Mike (Jon, Nina & All), Just to add a little to your discussions with Jon & Nina: M:> The way you've put this puzzles me though--is > pa~n~naa (or sa.t.tipathaana vipassanaa) kammapatha? Jon:>>Yes. There are 10 akusala- and 10 kusala-kamma-patha, and 3 of each are mental actions (3 are bodily actions and 4 are verbal actions). The mental actions, for akusala/kusala kamma-patha, are: - Covetousness/Unselfishness - Ill-will/Good-will - Evil views/Right views Thus panna of the level of satipatthana/vipassana is kusala-kamma-patha.<< ***** S: As noted, wrong views and right views are included under kamma-patha. Indeed, right view and the development of wisdom of this kind is the ‘highest’ good. We read the same lists of akusala and kusala kamma-patha in suttas. For example, in MN41, Saalayyaka Sutta,<286> ~Nanamoli/Bodhi transl, we read about these views under these categories of conduct: “Householders, there are three kinds of bodily conduct not in accordance with the dhamma, unrighteous conduct. There are four kinds of verbal conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct. There are three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct..... “.....And how, householders, are there three kinds of mental conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, unrighteous conduct? Here someone is covetous.....Or he has a mind of ill will and intentions....may these beings be slain and slaughtered.....Or he has wrong view, distorted vision, thus: ‘there is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realised by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.....” “.....And how, householders, are there three kinds of mental conduct in accordance with the dhamma, righteous conduct? Here someone is not covetous...His mind is without ill will and he has intentions free from hate.....He has RIGHT VIEW, undistorted vision, thus: “There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realised by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.” ***** I actually find the following definition of wrong view in the Atthasalini transl, Courses of Immoral Action p134, under akusala kamma patha to be more straight forward: “Wrong view is that which sees wrongly by not taking the right view. It has the characteristic of perverted views, such as ‘There is no (use in a ) gift.’ And the offence is small or great as in the case of frivolous talk, or according as the wrong view is of a temporary or permanent character. Its two constituent factors are: perversion of the manner in which an object should be taken, and its manifestation according to the contrary view held of it. Here the distinctive stage of the course of action is reached by the views: 1) there is no result (in a moral act); 2) there are no causes (in happening); 3) there is no such thing as (moral) action, and not by other views.” ***** It continues to mention the various factors including the roots you mentioned which determine the course of action. Right view is the opposite. If we consider the stages of insight, then obviously the higher the stage or the more developed the panna, then the greater the kusala kamma patha I would think. As Nina mentioned, we don’t need to be overly concerned with which kinds of kusala or moments of kusala are kamma patha and indeed any concern with result is likely to indicate more clinging to self again. On the otherhand, I think it’s important that we don’t underestimate the importance and value of right understanding of phenomena appearing at this moment and the danger of wrong views in terms of both accumulation and result. Sometimes we may forget about akusala and kusala mental actions as kamma-patha as they are not necessarily observable like speech and bodily actions. Hope to hear any further comments from any of you. In this regard, let me again repeat the Nyantiloka dictionary entry for kamma-patha which Jon just posted. Metta (and hoping to catch any of those pesky self-advertising elves;-)) Sarah ===== From Nyantiloka dictionary: Kamma-patha 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A.X.28, 176; M.9; they are explained in detail in M.114, and in Com. to M.9 (R. Und., p. 14), Atthasálini Tr. I, 126ff. ========================= 20096 From: m. nease Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Hi Sarah, Interesting that I've missed this all these years. Still getting used to the idea of thinking of di.t.thi as kamma. The volition in it doesn't seem obvious to me (it seems passive). I certainly take the word of the tipitaka for it though. Not the first counter-intuitive bit of Dhamma I've run across. mike 20097 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Dear Mike, op 06-03-2003 15:27 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: >>> The way you've put this puzzles me though--is pa~n~naa (or >>> sa.t.tipathaana vipassanaa) kammapatha? > >> Nina: It is bhavana kusala kamma. > > Thanks, that clarifies it, I THINK. It strikes me that (the concept of) > bhaavanaa is peculiarly susceptible to attadi.t.thi. Since this is so often > translated as 'cultivation' (I like 'development' better--less personal) it > seems hard to separate it from someone doing the cultivating. In other > words, easy to theoretically recognize anatta in dhammas except when it > comes to cultivation--then it's something for 'me' to do. N: Then it is not under bhavana kusala kamma, this includes: study of dhamma and explaining it, samatha (the real one, not the one with miccha samadhi) and vipassana. I bet that we should not think of doing vipassana, then we are already on the wrong track. As A. Sujin aks: who is doing it? But sure, it creeps in before we realize it. The Pitfall I was discussing with smalchap. Nina 20098 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a good dinner and spiritual food. Dear Rob M, It does not matter about asking again a question discussed before, I have the same. I have no doubt about your good dinner, certainly with Num around (he has Saveur cookbooks!), but, what about the spiritual food? What did you discuss? op 06-03-2003 15:29 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: I > did have time for an excellent dinner with Betty and Num. 20099 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dreams, Thoughts, natural flow. Dear Howard, op 05-03-2003 19:47 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > While dreaming last night I realized during the dream, and upon > awakening, that I had been thinking about things during the dream in exactly > the same way thoughts arise and fall while awake, and with exactly the same > degree of the sense of "me" initiating (or not initiating) the thoughts. I > experienced no difference in the flow of thoughts from that in the waking > state. N: This is interesting, I tell Lodewijk, but he cannot realize this, he said. H:Now, we are used to realizing that the ordinary flow of non-thought > experiences (sights, sounds, smells, textures, etc) simply goes by on its > own, not directly, intentionally created by the mind, but "given", as it > were, "by nature". But we often think of "our thoughts" as being > intentionally created by "us". The fact that thinking occurs in just the same > way during a dream as while awake suggests to me that our trains of thought > are just as much "given by nature" as all the rest of our experience, and > that it is *all* just empty, impersonal phenomena rolling on N: Given by nature, you express this very well, just natural, because it is by conditions. Even in dreams cittas are mostly akusala, just naturally flowing, but no akusala kamma during dreams. When we wake up: the same: just naturally flowing, just empty, impersonal phenomena rolling on, as you say. Always the question comes up: can we not have efforts for kusala? Yes. When you know the right conditions. At the same time you know that effort is not you, it is just arising because of the right conditions. Effort and control, I do not fall over such words, they should not be any problem. So long as we have right understanding of them. Even suppressing akusala, we have to know that also this is conditioned, non-self. When you know the right conditions for eliminating akusala it can be eliminated. At the same time I appreciate reminders, when A. Sujin says to me: "are you trying to have awareness, do you want more?" No matter what we do, no matter what kind of experience we have, we should know whether that moment is kusala or akusala. There can be the idea of self who is trying, or attachment to our experiences which creeps in all the time. We have to check: when we feel happy, is this happy feeling accompanying lobha, attachment? Or is it happy feeling accompanying kusala citta? We have to know, otherwise we go the wrong way. We need very much the perfection of truthfulness, we cannot do without it. But it is not always pleasant to be truthful, sincere, we may dislike it. It may be a rude awakening. We are thinking the whole day. I just heard on tape: Nina. Nina. 20100 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 10:26am Subject: M 1: 120, 18-19, about different ways of eliminating unwholesome thoughts Dear Sarah, On your request I am sending you what I studied, only part of this interesting but long Co. on M, I, sutta 20, Discourse on the Forms of Thought, vitakkasanthanasutta. The part I referred to is the fourth way of eliminating bad thoughts: vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana, attend to the thought function and form of those thoughts.(I added Thai for the benefit of Piya Tan. Jon will like this also. Hoping for your B.B. notes! I should do more, when time allows: Pali Yahoo: op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@s...: > > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here? > > [My provisional translation:] > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those thoughts, > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the stilling > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining the > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19) Nina: santhaana, or sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is mentioned: configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form. Now to the Co (in Thai): Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have to think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them. The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought function and form of those thoughts. The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj) of that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject. When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is compared to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu, with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who lies down. Also in another sutta it is said that thinking travels. The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word of the sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas. The monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara, realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he can realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations, sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion) The Commentary is long but very interesting, many similes. What is also stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha can be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right conditions for vipassana. I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has helped you to clarify the meaning of terms, Nina. 20101 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 0:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Modesty Hi Sarah, Thanks for your response. Modesty is a quality that I see in many people, people who are decent and moderate, not ostentatious. They exercise self-restraint and are not extreme in behavior and in speech. Even if they are powerful and wealthy, they are not concerned about impressing other with power and wealth. People with modesty are less likely to arouse jealousy in others. They are less likely to make enemy. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor & Christine, > > > H --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > I agree with you, and I think the benefit of modesty is an ease of > > mind for self and others. I think excessiveness and self- > > aggrandizement always creates tension in one's own mind or others'. > > I think modesty is a peaceful quality in behavior and expression. > ..... > This is an interesting thread. Perhaps when I think of modesty as a > wholesome quality, I think of the opposite of mana (conceit)and in > particular, the opposite of `flaunting a flag' and the expressions in this > quote from the Atthasalini (bk 11, Part 11, ch2, 372) on conceit: > > " "Conceit", "overweening" and "conceitedness" signify mode and state. > "Loftiness" is in the sense of rising upwards or of springing over others. > "haughtiness", i.e. in whom conceit arises, him it lifts up, keeps > upraised. "Flaunting a flag" is in the sense of swelling above others. > "Assumption' means uplifting; conceit favours the mind all round. Of > many flags the flag which raises above others is called a banner. So > conceit arising repeatedly in the sense of excelling with reference to > subsequent conceits is like a banner. That mind which desires the banner > is said to be desirous of the banner (i.e. , self-advertisement). Such a > state is desire for elf-advertisement......" > ..... > In other words, perhaps we can say that modesty in this sense is the > opposite to clinging to self and finding oneself important. What do you > think? > ..... > I thought the latest installment from Nina's translation of Rahulavaada > Sutta commentary gave a good example of the sense of the meaning I'm > trying to convey. Here is the last paragraph again: > > "However, the following thoughts did not occur to the venerable Rahula: > `Although the Blessed One knows that I am left behind in the monastery, he > has not, after he has personally received alsmfood, taken it and come > himself, nor did he send me food (by the hand of) through someone else, > nor indeed did my preceptor do anything at all, although he knows that I > am left behind. Why should there be conditions for the arising of > self-disrespect (omaana.m) or pride (atimaana.m)?' " > ***** > I'll be glad to hear both your further comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah 20102 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Howard (and Mike) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Mike (and Jon) - ... > ============================ > Might the idea be that wisdom = right view? (I know that the > term > 'right view' has a conventional flavor to it, but I suspect that as > a path factor it means exactly supramundane wisdom/insight. This would be how I see it, too. Right view is the mental factor that is panna (wisdom). > Likewise, I suppose > "evil view" needs to be identified with moha.) It's true that moha (ignorance) is the opposite of panna (wisdom), but it is wrong view, rather than ignorance, that is given as akusala kamma. The difference is that whereas ignorance is wholly ignorant of the presently arising dhamma, wrong view takes the dhamma for being something that it is not (and is therefore more 'dangerous'). Consciousness that is accompanied by wrong view is said to be rooted in attachment (lobha). > BTW, in looking over Nyanatiloka's definition of kammapatha, > the *physical* courses of action are all macroscopic, conventional > phenomena, but > the mental ones appear to all be cetasikas - concomitant functions > participating in and supporting the discerning of an object during > a mindstate (citta). A good observation, Howard. All instances of kamma patha are, in the ultimate analysis, the mental factor of cetana, but in the case of the 'physical' courses of action the cetana alone, without the accompanying body/speech door action, is not of sufficient strength to constitute the completed action. In the case of the mental actions, the kamma is still the cetana cetasika that accompanies the moment of Covetousness/Unselfishness, Ill-will/Good-will or Evil views/Right views, so these too are conventional descriptions to a degree. Jon 20103 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Mike (and Howard) --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Howard and Jon, > ... > This has come up before and I basically agree with you both. I > agree with > Howard that, in a sense, concepts arise and fall away (this is > easily > experienced in retrospect at least). It seems to me that the > difference > between concepts (pa.n.natti, without sabhaava), and paramattha > dhammas > (with sabhaava), is, most importantly, that the latter can be the > bases of > insight of the degree of satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa and the former > can't. Of course it seems that concepts arise and fall away, and this is the experience of us all. However, there is no statement to this effect in the teachings, as far as I am aware, so I think it's a proposition that needs careful considering. > On the other hand, it also seems to me that only pa.n.natti, maybe, > can be > the the basis of conventional (conceptual) insight? (Potentially > confusing > to use the word 'insight' in this context--maybe something like > 'theoretical > understanding' would be better). If so, this seems to me to > suggest a > useful distinction between conventional (or theoretical) view > (right or > wrong) and view as a path-factor (right or wrong). Aren't both > theoretical > right view and right view as a path factor necessary to bhaavanaa? Yes, I believe it's correct to say that at moments of understanding at an intellectual level the object will be concepts and not absolute dhammas. This intellectual understanding is a necessary prelude to direct experiencing (mundane path moments). Right view as a path factor is the panna that arises with the mundane path moments (satipatthana/vipassana). > I'm sure we've been over all this ground before--just thinking out > loud. It's always good to go over it again. Our grasp of these things is essentially weak and needs constant reinforcement. Jon 20104 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Rob M I don’t now remember exactly what I said in my original post to you on this thread, but I know I was mistaken about some aspects of kamma. My apologies for that. Specifically, it is clear to me now that it is not only kamma-patha that brings results in the form of sense-door experiences during our lifetime; other kamma that is not 'completed' may also do so. However, I am still uncertain as to what extent our ordinary, everyday akusala (for example, the continual subtle attachment to people and objects around us) constitutes kamma that is capable of bringing a sense-door experience in the course of a lifetime. I haven't found anything specifically on this. I have pasted below some passages from CMA on this general area. Jon From CMA Four Types of Kamma(kammacatukka.m) #18 By way of Function With respect to function there are four kinds of kamma, namely: (i) productive kamma; (ii) supportive kamma; (iii) obstructive kamma; and (iv) destructive kamma. Guide to #18 ... The word kamma means literally action or deed, but in the Buddha's teaching it refers exclusively to the volitional action. From a technical standpoint, karma denotes wholesome or unwholesome volition (cetana), volition being the factor responsible for action. Thus the Buddha declares; "It is volition, monks, that I call karma, for having willed, one performs an action through body, speech or mind" (A.6:63/ iii,415). All volitional action, except that of a Buddha or an Arahant, constitutes karma. ... With respect to function: Kammas perform different functions (kicca), of which four are mentioned here. Any karma, under different circumstances, can perform any or several of these functions. ... Productive (janaka) karma is wholesome or unwholesome volition which produces resultant mental states and karma-born materiality, both at the moment of rebirth-linking and during the course of existence. ... At the moment of conception, productive karma generates the rebirth-linking consciousness and the karma-born types of materiality constituting the physical body of the new being. During the course of existence it produces other resultant cittas and the continuities of karma-born materiality, such as the sense faculties, sexual determination, and the heart-base. Only a karma that has attained the status of a full course of action can perform the function of producing rebirth-linking, but all wholesome and unwholesome karmas without exception can produce results during the course of existence. ... Supportive (upatthambaka) karma is karma which does not gain an opportunity to produce its own result, but which, when some other karma is exercising a productive function, supports it either by enabling it to produce its pleasant or painful results over an extended time without obstruction or by reinforcing the continuum of aggregates produced by another karma. ... --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Sorry for the delay in responding. I was very busy in Bangkok, but > I did have time for an excellent dinner with Betty and Num. Nice > people, I hope to meet up with them again in a couple of weeks and > then again on April 25th. I hope that you come back to visit > Thailand again soon. 20105 From: robmoult Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 5:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and Conventional Events: A Brief Comment Hi Jon, I was worried that we disagreed. Thanks for easing my mind. Metta, Rob M :-) 20106 From: Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dreams, Thoughts, natural flow. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/7/03 1:27:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > op 05-03-2003 19:47 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >While dreaming last night I realized during the dream, and upon > >awakening, that I had been thinking about things during the dream in > exactly > >the same way thoughts arise and fall while awake, and with exactly the > same > >degree of the sense of "me" initiating (or not initiating) the thoughts. I > >experienced no difference in the flow of thoughts from that in the waking > >state. > N: This is interesting, I tell Lodewijk, but he cannot realize this, he > said. > > H:Now, we are used to realizing that the ordinary flow of non-thought > >experiences (sights, sounds, smells, textures, etc) simply goes by on its > >own, not directly, intentionally created by the mind, but "given", as it > >were, "by nature". But we often think of "our thoughts" as being > >intentionally created by "us". The fact that thinking occurs in just the > same > >way during a dream as while awake suggests to me that our trains of > thought > >are just as much "given by nature" as all the rest of our experience, and > >that it is *all* just empty, impersonal phenomena rolling on > N: Given by nature, you express this very well, just natural, because it is > by conditions. > > We are thinking the whole day. I just heard on tape: thinking without understanding one takes it for "me" all the time: "I who > thinks." One should know the characteristic of right awareness, > sati-sampaja~n~na, this is the development of right understanding. > Sati-sampaja~n~na is different from other kinds of sati, such as sati with > dana.> > Nina. > > ========================== Thank you, Nina. Very, very good! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20107 From: robmoult Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 5:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a good dinner and spiritual food. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > I have no doubt about your good dinner, certainly with Num around (he has > Saveur cookbooks!), but, what about the spiritual food? What did you > discuss? It was our first meeting, so it was a "get to know you" session. Num was tired and had a hard time gettng a word in edgewise as Betty and I were chatting furiously. I passed to Betty a few copies of your "Buddhism in Daily Life" that I had printed here in KL. She was excited because, starting next month, she will be teaching an English class to Thai monks so that they can explain the Dhamma to foreigners who visit the temple. She plans to use your book as the "textbook" for this course but only had one copy. I am planning to return to Bangkok in a couple of weeks and bring her another 30 copies, so she can give one to each monk (this is better than working from photocopies). In 2003, my class has expanded so I am teaching using PowerPoint slides to present information (my handwriting is unreadable because I type so much that the "handwriting muscles" in my fingers have atrophied). I try to make the slides as visually interesting as possible. With each slide, I prepare a script of "speaker's notes". I passed to Betty what I have done so far this year (about 80 slides). Betty said that she wanted to show it to the Board of the Foundation to see if they would accept it on their website. I would appreciate this because, before being posted on a website, somebody who knows Abhidhamma much better than I would have to review it to ensure that there was no "micha ditthi". I have long felt that Abhidhamma has an unwarranted reputation among many Buddhists. I am convinced that what the Abhidhamma needs is "better marketing". Readable texts such as yours go a long way; visuals can help as well. There was a lot of other topics discussed as well (appreciation for DSG, how I came to teach Abhidhamma, Betty's son [the monk], science and Buddhism, etc.). A thoroughly enjoyable dinner... I am looking forward to more of them! Metta, Rob M :-) 20108 From: robmoult Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 6:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: a quantum view of free will Hi Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Though I do think it can be a very interesting question whether ruupa exists > without naama, I also think it's beside the point of Buddhadhamma. Why did > the Buddha discuss ruupa in relation to naama? Not for cosmological, > phenomenological or philosophical reasons, I think, but because both are > pertinent to pa.ticcasamuppaada and the four noble truths. > I agree 100%. My point is that the Buddha ONLY talked about rupa as it related to the mind and ethics (pa.ticcasamuppaada and the four noble truths). I contend that the Buddha NEVER talked about rupa in isolation. This is the foundation of my argument of ethical (phenomenological) view vs. scientific (model of reality) view. I am hoping that somebody can challenge me (with references) so that I can learn if I am correct or not. A local monk recommended a book at the local Buddhist library, "Buddhist Analysis of Matter" by Y. Karunadasa. The book looks a litte dry, but at some point, I figure I am going to have to read it. Metta, Rob M :-) 20109 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 6:28pm Subject: Hello everyone!!!!!!!! Hello everyone! I read all the mail that you all wrote to each other and while reading the letters I got more interested in Buddhism and monks. Before going on, I should first introduce myself. My name is Anne-Catherine and I'm 13 years old. I'm Swiss-Canadian (from Quebec and Zurich). I have some questions to ask. What do you understand under Buddhism and Gods? And would you like to join the Buddhism religion? Why? Last year I went to Myanmar and I saw young monks, really children, who were each carrying a big bowl. Do you know what they do with it, do they collect money or food? Is it for them or for other people? Sorry for asking a lot of questions but I am really interested. Well that was it,can't wait for one of your replies. Have a nice day! Anne-Catherine :) 20110 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 6:30pm Subject: Questions..... Dear Kom, Thank you for answering my questions! Well now I have a few more to ask: Is there a handbook to teach you how to speak Maghadha? Does every Buddhist have to attend classes to understand the Buddha's teachings? What is a deva? Thats all for this letter! Metta, Janice 20111 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 6:40pm Subject: The Buddha Dear James, Thanks for the poems! In fact, I feel quite sorry about your grandmother. Here are some of the questions: Do you use it when you pray? (the 8 foot path) Do you bring the ashes to the temple for them to be blessed? Could the real Buddha walk? (I am asking because he is always sitting with his legs crossed) Please send me another poem! Metta, Janice 20112 From: Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a quantum view of free will Hi Rob M. I missed the earlier posts on this topic. Are you asking whether or not suttas contain any discussion of rupa as separate from nama? TG > I am hoping that somebody can challenge me (with references) so that > I can learn if I am correct or not. A local monk recommended a book > at the local Buddhist library, "Buddhist Analysis of Matter" by Y. > Karunadasa. The book looks a litte dry, but at some point, I figure > I am going to have to read it. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > 20113 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 6:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Rob M (and Mike) An interesting thread, guys, and I hope to add to it myself (with some of the challenges that Rob is so looking forward to;-)). But can I first ask Rob to give and example of what he has in mind by 'talking about rupa in isolation', as I'm having difficulty getting the point here. Thanks. Jon --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Mike, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > Though I do think it can be a very interesting question whether > ruupa exists > > without naama, I also think it's beside the point of > Buddhadhamma. Why did > > the Buddha discuss ruupa in relation to naama? Not for > cosmological, > > phenomenological or philosophical reasons, I think, but because > both are > > pertinent to pa.ticcasamuppaada and the four noble truths. > > > > I agree 100%. My point is that the Buddha ONLY talked about rupa as > it related to the mind and ethics (pa.ticcasamuppaada and the four > noble truths). I contend that the Buddha NEVER talked about rupa in > isolation. This is the foundation of my argument of ethical > (phenomenological) view vs. scientific (model of reality) view. > > I am hoping that somebody can challenge me (with references) so that > I can learn if I am correct or not. A local monk recommended a book > at the local Buddhist library, "Buddhist Analysis of Matter" by Y. > Karunadasa. The book looks a litte dry, but at some point, I figure > I am going to have to read it. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Weight Age Gender Female Male 20114 From: robmoult Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 7:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi Jon and TG (and others), When a "scientist" talks about rupa, they will discuss it without reference to an observer (at least up until the early part of this century when Einstein, Heisenberg and others showed that that the frame of reference of the observer must be considered). To the "scientist", the observer and consciousness is not important and is not "part of the equation". This is what I have called the "scientific view". The focus of the "ethical view" is the individual and consciousness; one cannot have ethics without an individual. From the individual's perspective, rupa only has relevance on ethical issues (conditioning mental states, etc.) when the rupa interacts with the senses. When I limit my focus to only rupa that interacts with the senses (i.e. consciousness), then I am taking a phenomenological approach. What I am contending is that the Suttas (and perhaps even the original Abhidhamma, but perhaps not including the commentaries) only talk about rupa as it impacts the senses (i.e. in a purely phenomenlogical perspective). My contention (and I may be wrong) is that the Buddha never talked about rupa without also talking about sense perception or somehow linking the discussion to ethics (four noble truths, dependent origination). My contention is that the Buddha never discussed rupa in isolation from ethics. I noted that the Abhidhammatthasangahadipanipali listed the proximate cause of rupa as "vinnana" (consciousness) to support this position. The impact of this position is that if I am asked, "If a tree falls in the woods with none to hear, is there a sound?", then my answer is "There is no 'sound'; 'sound' is a rupa that must have consciousness". I am not denying that there may be something else arising when the tree falls (dnuos, a form of apur; backwards sound, backwards rupa), but my position is that apur in general and dnuos in particular is outside the scope of the Buddhadhamma. Jon, I am interested in the results of your searches! Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob M (and Mike) > > An interesting thread, guys, and I hope to add to it myself (with > some of the challenges that Rob is so looking forward to;-)). But > can I first ask Rob to give and example of what he has in mind by > 'talking about rupa in isolation', as I'm having difficulty getting > the point here. Thanks. > > Jon > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Mike, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > > wrote: > > > Though I do think it can be a very interesting question whether > > ruupa exists > > > without naama, I also think it's beside the point of > > Buddhadhamma. Why did > > > the Buddha discuss ruupa in relation to naama? Not for > > cosmological, > > > phenomenological or philosophical reasons, I think, but because > > both are > > > pertinent to pa.ticcasamuppaada and the four noble truths. > > > > > > > I agree 100%. My point is that the Buddha ONLY talked about rupa as > > it related to the mind and ethics (pa.ticcasamuppaada and the four > > noble truths). I contend that the Buddha NEVER talked about rupa in > > isolation. This is the foundation of my argument of ethical > > (phenomenological) view vs. scientific (model of reality) view. > > > > I am hoping that somebody can challenge me (with references) so > that > > I can learn if I am correct or not. A local monk recommended a book > > at the local Buddhist library, "Buddhist Analysis of Matter" by Y. > > Karunadasa. The book looks a litte dry, but at some point, I figure > > I am going to have to read it. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) 20115 From: Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 3:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi Rob M. > When a "scientist" talks about rupa, they will discuss it without > reference to an observer (at least up until the early part of this > century when Einstein, Heisenberg and others showed that that the > frame of reference of the observer must be considered). To > the "scientist", the observer and consciousness is not important and > is not "part of the equation". This is what I have called > the "scientific view". > Wait a minute. These statements are contradictory. If the most famous scientist(s) of this century are saying that the observer must be considered, then it appears science considers it important. The Buddha defined rupa in terms of the bodily parts....head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, etc. The Four Great Elements are analyzed...paraphrasing... the Four Great Elements, born of mother and father, supported by rice and gruel, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered. I think there is analysis in the suttas that deals strictly with materiality. Primarily to show either impermanence or foulness in materiality. That can be a lesson to inculcate repulsion. Specifically, I there's a sutta, I think in Samyutta, that talks about the things the Buddha had in a past life and that they are all gone now. It ends with ... paraphrasing...see how impermanent are the things of this world, how unsubstantial and unsatisfactory. This is reason enough to be repelled by the things of this world, enough to lose passion for them, enough to be liberated therefrom. I think there are quite a few suttas along this line that don't deal specifically with mentality but are of course making a point to try to develop wisdom. So they are still "aimed" toward mentality even though they may not be talking specifically about it. But then, any knowledge must be ment for mentality no matter what. So I think there are suttas that meet the criteria of of dealing with materiality while not analysing mentality. When I come across them I'll try to remember to post them if you'd like Rob. TG 20116 From: robmoult Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 9:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Rob M. > > > When a "scientist" talks about rupa, they will discuss it without > > reference to an observer (at least up until the early part of this > > century when Einstein, Heisenberg and others showed that that the > > frame of reference of the observer must be considered). To > > the "scientist", the observer and consciousness is not important and > > is not "part of the equation". This is what I have called > > the "scientific view". > > > > Wait a minute. These statements are contradictory. If the most famous > scientist(s) of this century are saying that the observer must be considered, > then it appears science considers it important. ====== True, but modern scientists view the observer as important as a frame of reference, not from a moral, ethical, phenomenological or consciousness perspective. ===== > > The Buddha defined rupa in terms of the bodily parts....head hairs, body > hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, etc. > > The Four Great Elements are analyzed...paraphrasing... the Four Great > Elements, born of mother and father, supported by rice and gruel, of a nature > to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered. > > I think there is analysis in the suttas that deals strictly with materiality. > Primarily to show either impermanence or foulness in materiality. That can > be a lesson to inculcate repulsion. Specifically, I there's a sutta, I think > in Samyutta, that talks about the things the Buddha had in a past life and > that they are all gone now. It ends with ... paraphrasing...see how > impermanent are the things of this world, how unsubstantial and > unsatisfactory. This is reason enough to be repelled by the things of this > world, enough to lose passion for them, enough to be liberated therefrom. > > I think there are quite a few suttas along this line that don't deal > specifically with mentality but are of course making a point to try to > develop wisdom. So they are still "aimed" toward mentality even though they > may not be talking specifically about it. But then, any knowledge must be > ment for mentality no matter what. So I think there are suttas that meet the > criteria of of dealing with materiality while not analysing mentality. When > I come across them I'll try to remember to post them if you'd like Rob. Thanks TG, the "ideal" Sutta that would blow my theory to bits would be one where the Buddha says, "O monks, such is the nature of rupa.... (and then went on to explain without any reference to consciousness, ethics, dependent origination, etc.)." Please let me know if you can find something that fits this description. Metta, Rob M :-) 20117 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Re: Buddhism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hey Everybody: > > Sorry for not writing for so long. I have been quite > busy lately, so I didn't have time to write letters. > There are also a few questions I would like to ask > you: Hi Star Kid Philip! I hope you are doing well. It was nice to see another letter from you. I hope you and your sister aren't fighting anymore. Okay, let me take a whack at all of these questions of yours! ;-) 1. When did the Buddha die? Answer: He died in 480 B.C. in Kusinagar, India at the age of 80- years-old. 2. When was the Buddha born? Answer: He was born in 560 B.C. in Nepal, India. 3. What is the Buddha's name? Answer: Siddhartha Gotama, prince of the Sakya clan. 4. Is Buddhism a philosophy, or is it a religion? Answer: It is a religion. 5. Do you go to the temple to praise the Buddha, just like we do in Christianity? Answer: Some people go to the temple to simply praise the Buddha, but not everyone. The Buddha wanted people to praise and practice his teachings and in that way praise him. 6. Is there anything you feel is unique or special about Buddhism? Answer: Buddhism is unique to all previous religions and all subsequent religions because of its teaching of non-self (anatta). The Lord Buddha was the only one to discover this reality of existence. However, only a truly enlightened person can fully understand it and its ramifications. I don't write much about non- self because I would be a `fake/hypocrite' to discuss something I cannot possibly know first-hand. 7. Some people who believe in Buddhism don't eat meat. Do you eat meat? Answer: Yes, I do eat meat. Some Buddhists chose not to eat meat but that is because of personal and/or social beliefs; vegetarianism isn't a requirement of Buddhism. 8. Why don't some people who believe in Buddhism eat meat? Answer: They would each have their own reason for choosing not to eat meat. To generalize, they probably feel that taking the life of a plant is better than taking the life of an animal; predominately because animals remind them of people while plants don't. To the Lord Buddha, such decisions are arbitrary and based on clinging/desire. One's mental state is more important than what one eats and all decisions of what to eat and when to eat should be based on mental health. 9. Are there special festivals of Buddism, such as Christmas of Christianity? Answer: Yes, quite a few of them. I couldn't really tell you all of them here. 10. How many Buddhas are there? Answer: I don't know. 11. Is (Are) Buddha(s) God(s)? Answer: No, they are first human beings and then they are Buddhas. Technically, they are human beings and yet they are set above the rest of humanity. The Lord Buddha was an `extraordinary man' (Acchariya Manussa) The Buddha explained it well when someone asked him, "Are you a God?" He replied, "No." Then this person asked, "Are you an ordinary human being?" He replied, "No." The third question was then, "What are you then?" The Buddha replied, "I am awake." 12. Why do you believe in Buddhism? Answer: Because I have tested it for myself and found it to be true. I believe in the Four Noble Truths and the Triple Gem. 13. Do you have any opinions or comments related to Buddhism? Answer: The Buddha summarized Buddhism in very simple terms: Don't Do Evil; Do Only Good; Purify the mind. Okay, Philip, it was nice writing to you again. Take care and study hard in school. Love, James 20118 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 10:31pm Subject: Re: Rasicm and an accident in Korea... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Hello, it's me Ki Yong. I read your long letter. Thank > you for telling me about the American Monks. It was > quite interesting, but this one thing bothers me a > lot. It's the last paragraph about you becoming a > monk, and some racist people said monks are > unintelligent and they are ugly. I don't know why some > people say those stuff. I HATE racists, but I am quite > of a racist too... hehe.... That's how > anti-americanism started in Korea. At first they were > angry about an America ice-skater who lied and a > Korean skater who was in the first place lost his gold > medal. On American TV Show, they called the American > skater, and the TV show host said, "I bet that > Korean kid is eating his own dog for his dinner! > HAHA!" Another things Koreans hate about America, is > the accident in Korea. An American tank killled two > girls on the bridge, but American soldiers didn't show > up for judjement. Nowadays, Koreans hate George Bush > for making problems worse. Oh well, I hope I didn't > make you angry. What do you think about racists? > > I think you heard about the accident in Korea on Feb > 18th in the subway station. More than 140 people died > and more than 140 people were injured. Why did they > have to die? In Buddishm I heard that monks believe in > rebirth. Would those people who were killed have > rebirth in the future? I mean like would only some > people would rebirth or everyone will have a rebirth? > > The next day after this accident, I went to school. I > told my friends about the fire. My friends just nodded > and started to talk and laugh again. I told my Korean > friends, they just made sad faces and went away. On > September 11th, I was sad for one day, but I don't > know why I am more sad about this accident. More > people were killed on September 11th, but I am more > sad about this accident. I think it's because I am > Korean… Would other people feel the same as me? How do > you feel about this accident? > > Here is a poem about this accident wrote by my > favourite game player. He's from our game community. > -------------------------------------------------- > POEM > *If other men or I could have saved them… And there > weren't any tears… > > Could it have been… > An accident… > Or a terror attack… > Or a murder… > They disappeared in a flame… > Just like Jesus did on a cross… > > Death comes suddenly to people… > But… > Was it their fault? > Just because of one man's selfishness > They shouted and yelled > And started falling down in the dark fog > There was a student who just graduated from univeristy > who was celebrating with his mom… > There were young siblings who were looking for their > mom… > Their were old couples enjoying shopping… > But their souls left us forever… > > That time, > When the door didn't open > Worried and Feared > What was I doing? > That morning, > Just like my lifestyle, I was infront of the monitor > Laughing… > I was shouting at my mom that breakfast tasted > disgusting > I was shouting if I could stop studying… > That time, > What if I was there? > What could have I done? > If I could give them my fun time… > > What if… > They had powers to open the door, > The fire would just end up burning one seat… > And just ended as a small accident… > What if the happening could have been forgotten > easily, > What if there wasn't their tease and our tears… > > Yes… > We must remember the time the pain they felt… > We shouldn't forget… > How hot could it have been? > How painful could it have been? > Even one years passes… > Even ten years passes… > Even one hundered years passes… > When we think of this unforgottable accident > We should cry and pray for the souls… > Their pains might have been over and now they could be > laughing in heaven… > But… Our pain is still left… > Their family and our pain is still left… > > If other men or I could have saved them… And there > werent any tears…* > END > ----------------------------------------------------- > > OK… I am done with the poem… There are many grammar > mistakes because I translated into English from > Korean. I think it would be good to read this to your > students so they might think that Koreans are not dumb > and there will be less racism ^^ > > Thank you for reading my letter. Mine was quite long > too. HAHAHA > > Sorry, I gotta go. Bye > > From, Ki Yong Hi Star Kid Ki Yong! Wow! This is one really long letter! It is also very well written, you should be proud of yourself. You must be doing really well in school. Okay, let me go through the different issues you raise. No, I do not like racism. Thank you for being honest about having some racism toward Americans; and no it doesn't make me mad. I could never get mad at you Star Kids! ;-) International dislike for Americans is nothing new. It has been around for decades. But the world is starting to discover something about America that it didn't realize before: America isn't made up of just white people; America is made up of all of the world's nationalities. Since you mentioned 9/11, let me talk a bit about that. Those terrorists wanted to harm America so they hijacked those planes and crashed them into the twin towers. They thought that they were just hurting America, white America, but that wasn't the case at all. People from several other countries were on those planes and in those buildings; and there weren't just white Americans killed, but all kinds of nationalities of Americans who were killed. Maybe they thought the world wouldn't mind this act of terrorism because American's are so disliked around the world, but that wasn't the case at all. When they attacked America, they ended up attacking the whole world. Racism and nationalism is a tough subject with no easy answers. Not even Buddhists are immune to racism and nationalism. For example, in a different Buddhist group from this one, I and another American have received posts from a member from a different country (not America) where we were both accused of being `insensitive' to the international members with the wording of our messages. In other words, this member expressed that we were just being the stereotypical `Ugly Americans'. In my experience, this member only gives this kind of message to the American members…making the groups an `us' vs. `them' sort of approach rather than just a `people' approach. Racism and nationalism can be both subtle and obvious. Yes, I believe that everyone killed in that subway in Korea was reborn; unless there happened to be a Buddha on the subway and then he/she wouldn't be reborn. Ki Yong, I am sorry that you feel sad about those deaths, and that was a senseless thing to have happened, but there is no reason to be sad. Your emotions, and the poem you quote, talk as if those people never lived before and will never live again. I don't see it that way at all. I know that they have lived before and will simply be reborn again. They are not suffering anything now; it is only those who are alive now who cling to their memories who are suffering. We have all been born and die, born and die, born and die, again, and again, and again…what you should focus on is right now. Don't hold a grudge or keep wondering why they died, just look at right now. Look at your life and where it is heading and what you can do for other people to make them happy and enlightened. Ki Yong, it is okay to forgive those who killed the people on the subway and to forgive the people who killed during 9/11 and to not feel sad about those who have died. That doesn't mean you don't have a heart that means you have a VERY BIG HEART! You will have a heart that contains everyone and everything. I will keep this poem and read it to my students. And don't worry, I have always taught my students the evils of racism and nationalism. Take care and I hope you continue to do well in school. Love, James 20119 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 11:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions..... Hi Janice! > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > Dear Kom, > > Is there a handbook to teach you how to speak > Maghadha? Maghadha (or Pali) is not a live language. People for the most part don't speak the language: they only study it so that they can learn the teaching of the Buddha without having to have somebody else translate it for them. There are Pali dictionaries, though. You actually know at least 2 words. Buddha means the one who knows, the awakened one. Metta means kindness. > Does every Buddhist have to attend classes > to understand the Buddha's teachings? No, there isn't a requirement to attend classes to become a Buddhist, but many people become a Buddhist because they see the truth in the teachings of the Buddha. When a Buddhist see the value of learning about the Buddha's teachings, they learn however they can (book, from friends, classes, etc.) > What is a deva? A deva is a being born in happier planes of existence than human. They are supposed to radiate lights, and live a very happy life (no school, no work). When they are born, they are born whole. They don't have to be born from the womb as a baby, and grow up to be an adult. But they too must die, and then are reborn according to their kamma. Regardless of how happy they are as a deva, if they have had bad kamma in previous lives (which everybody does!), they can be born in an unhappier plan of existence. Hope this answers your questions! kom 20120 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ========================== > Yes, of course. My statement was formulated quite > conventionally. Your > reformulation was less conventional, closer to paramattha sacca. > The ultimate/perfect formulation would be silence. (The Zen folks > emphasize that.) > I suspect that our differences here may be stylistic, with > me seeing > some danger in the attempt to avoid conventional speech (as there > most certainly also is, generally moreso, in being taken in by > conventional speech!). I think the only reservation I had about your formulation was that, to my understanding, it is not within everyone's power to take the necessary steps to accomplish the task of abandoning/developing, although it is something that can indeed be done. I was not just reformulating for the sake of it ;-)). Jon 20121 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Rob M Just taking your textual reference to begin with. You say: <> I am not sure about the inference you draw here. In the CMA in the chapter on conditions it explains that as regards sense-door consciousness and the object experienced by it, the latter conditions the former by prenascence condition (see passage pasted below). Does this not contradict your inference? The reference that you mention to vinnana as proximate cause of rupa given may not be a reference to sense-door consciousness and its object, but instead to some other relationship, such as kamma and the kamma-conditioned rupas (the sense bases), for example. Jon From CMA Ch.VII, #16 Only in one way is matter a condition for mind: the six bases during the course of existence are condition for the seven elements of consciousness, and the five objects for the five processes of sense consciousness, by way of prenascence. Guide to #16 Prenascence condition is a condition where a conditioning state -- a material state which has already arisen and reached the stage of presence (.thiti) -- causes mental states, the conditioned states, to arise after it. This is like the sun, which arises first in the world and gives light to people who appear after it has arisen. There are two main types of prenascence condition, (i) base prenascence (vatthu-purejaata) and (ii) object prenascence (aarama.na-purejaata). ... (ii) Each of the five sense objects is a conditioning state by way of object prenascence for the citta and cetasikas in a sense-door cognitive process that take it as object. In addition all eighteen types of concretely produced matter that have reached the stage of presence can become object prenascence condition for the cittas and cetasikas in a mind-door process. --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon and TG (and others), > > When a "scientist" talks about rupa, they will discuss it without > reference to an observer (at least up until the early part of this > century when Einstein, Heisenberg and others showed that that the > frame of reference of the observer must be considered). To > the "scientist", the observer and consciousness is not important > and is not "part of the equation". This is what I have called > the "scientific view". 20122 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: I cannot for the life of me understand why that [i.e., that something that is purely mind-created (and has no sabhava) cannot be said to arise and pass away] would be the case UNLESS we are not talking about the same thing. (Actually, I think we are NOT speaking about the same thing.) When I speak of a concept, I mean a thought/idea arising via the mind door as the result of mental fabrication; I do NOT refer to its intended referent which, indeed, is not present and thus neither arose nor will cease. Jon: Actually, I think we're speaking about the same thing. Our difference is in the question of rising and falling away. As I said in a recent post to Mike, I have not seen mention of rising and falling away of concepts in the texts, which makes me wonder whether the expression is appropriate in that context. It could be that, despite how it *seems* to us, concepts are not considered to rise and fall away, in the sense that only the citta of which a concept is the object rises and falls away, while the concept itself is created by the (already) arisen citta. Howard: When I "see a tree", as I do right now looking out the window, the concept (i.e. thought/idea) of 'tree' is repeatedly arising, ceasing, rearising, ceasing again ..., and is being "superimposed" by the mind (by complex sankharic functions) on the sequence of actual visual images experienced. The alleged tree, itself, is, upon careful examination, nowhere to be found. We can *say*, as the vinjaptimatrins do, that it is concept-only in the sense that the concept (thought/idea) is present, and the mental construct that is a hybrid construct mentally built from that concept and a series of visual rupas is present, but no physical object called "tree" is present at all. Does this clarify matters, Jon? Jon: I have no problem with the underlying relationship between fundamental phenomena and concepts in what you say here, Howard. I have reservations about some aspects of the detail (e.g., concepts being superimposed by the mind on the visible object experienced), but that's another issue, I suppose ;-). Jon 20123 From: bodhi342 Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings "If a tree falls in the woods with none to hear, is there a sound?" Hi Rob M, What is a tree, what is falling, what are woods, what is none? Just more mental proliferation taking concepts to be real? Can we even get to address your philosophical question? uninstructed worldling, dharam 20124 From: Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi, TG & Rob - I have found a piece which originates from the Nanavira Dhamma Page which I find very interesting (and related to this thread): [ The link is http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/sn-rupa.htm ] While to mind my this piece does not attempt to establish rupa as a category of phenomena that can exist independent of discernment especially if one includes subconscious experience, and that it actually fails in establishing the primary claim that it does make, it is, nonetheless, a novel and interesting approach to rupa, I think. The article tries to establish rupa as an important category which is, in a sense, existent independent of which of the 5-sensory doorways it "enters" through. That point, which I think is the thrust of the article, while not directly attempting to establish rupa as existentially independent of vi~n~nana, does attempt to present rupa as characteristic-wise, independent of other aspects of nama, being, in itself, merely of the nature of (abstract) resistence, and it seems to distinguish rupa, itself, from rupa as perceived (phenomenologically) as sight, sound, taste, touch, or warmth/cold (or as solidity, motility, temperature, or liquidity/cohesiveness). My opinion is that the conclusion of the piece is in error. I do agree that all instances of rupa, whether tactile, auditory, etc, have commonalities, particularly "resistance", but as I see it, rupa, per se, as a "principle", is concept-only, abstracted from the manifold specific instances of images, sounds, etc. that are actually experienced. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/8/03 12:02:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi TG, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > >Hi Rob M. > > > >>When a "scientist" talks about rupa, they will discuss it > without > >>reference to an observer (at least up until the early part of > this > >>century when Einstein, Heisenberg and others showed that that > the > >>frame of reference of the observer must be considered). To > >>the "scientist", the observer and consciousness is not important > and > >>is not "part of the equation". This is what I have called > >>the "scientific view". > >> > > > >Wait a minute. These statements are contradictory. If the most > famous > >scientist(s) of this century are saying that the observer must be > considered, > >then it appears science considers it important. > > ====== > > True, but modern scientists view the observer as important as a > frame of reference, not from a moral, ethical, phenomenological or > consciousness perspective. > > ===== > > > > >The Buddha defined rupa in terms of the bodily parts....head > hairs, body > >hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, etc. > > Thanks TG, the "ideal" Sutta that would blow my theory to bits would > be one where the Buddha says, "O monks, such is the nature of > rupa.... (and then went on to explain without any reference to > consciousness, ethics, dependent origination, etc.)." > > Please let me know if you can find something that fits this > description. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20125 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 9:01am Subject: Contentment Hi all, Anyone would like to talk about contentment? Regards, Victor 20126 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 10:08am Subject: Perfections, Ch 8, Truthfulness, no 2 Perfections, Ch 8, Truthfulness, no 2 The perfection of truthfulness is truthfulness or sincerity in developing kusala, with the aim to eradicate defilements. If there is no truthfulness with regard to the development of kusala, defilements cannot be eradicated. Truthfulness in the development of kusala with the aim to eradicate defilements begins with truthfulness with regard to the Triple Gem. We should be truthful and honest with ourselves while we consider in what way we show our reverence, respect and confidence towards the Triple Gem. Do we sincerely have respect and confidence in the Buddha, the Exalted One, when we see a Buddha statue? We can test our truthfulness with regard to the Triple Gem, if we are aware of our thoughts when we see a Buddha statue. Do we take refuge in the Triple Gem with truthfulness? We may think of the excellent qualities of the Buddha with respect, reverence and esteem. Or, when we see a Buddha statue, do we ask for favours such as protection, possessions, praise or a position of honour? We should know ourselves as we really are. We should be truthful, and we should not ask for gains and favours. We should be intent to apply the Dhamma while we show respect to our Teacher, the Exalted One. We can be truthful in the application of the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha. In this way we truly take our refuge in the Triple Gem. After the Buddha, the Exalted One, finally passed away, the Dhamma is the teacher in his stead. Truthfulness to the Dhamma means studying it with sincerity, with the aim to have correct understanding of it. We should not study the Dhamma with the aim to gain something, to acquire honour or praise, but only to have correct understanding of it. We should develop right understanding of the realities which appear so that defilements can be eradicated and ignorance abandoned. The temple is a dwelling place, a place where we can hear the Dhamma and study it. It does not belong to the monks but it belongs to the Triple Gem. Because of confidence in the excellent qualities of the Triple Gem, temples are built as dwelling places, places where the Dhamma can be studied. Therefore, we should consider whether we are truthful in our paying honour and respect to the Triple Gem. Footnote: belongs to Truthfulness no 1: 1. See also Visuddhimagga I, 75, about bean-soupery. 20127 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a good dinner and spiritual food. op 08-03-2003 02:56 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: Dear Rob M, Thank you for your description of a useful evening. > R I passed to Betty a few copies of your "Buddhism in Daily Life" that > I had printed here in KL. She was excited because, starting next > month, she will be teaching an English class to Thai monks N: Anumodana, I really appreciate it thta you rpinted the book. R: I have long felt that > Abhidhamma has an unwarranted reputation among many Buddhists. I am > convinced that what the Abhidhamma needs is "better marketing". N: I do agree, I would like people to have more confidence in the abhidhamma, to see that Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma are in conformity with each other. When we see that they all pertain to our life now and we check this, we gain more confidence. Also, the more I study commentaries the more I see how well they explain what is in the Tipitaka. Points so easily overseen are clearly explained and every time I am so surprised about it. It happens so often now that I think, "but how is this possible!" This bolsters my confidence in the commentaries. Best wishes, Nina. 20128 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Dear TG, very good. The Buddha speaks about mount Vipulla, there were other mountains that were different and there will be other mountains. And yes, such is the nature of rupa: in the Elephant's Footprint, the earth, water, fire, wind, these are impermanent. He talks about the outer rupas. Water dwindles away, nothing left. This is explained in conventional terms. Nina. op 08-03-2003 05:24 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > Specifically, I there's a sutta, I think > in Samyutta, that talks about the things the Buddha had in a past life and > that they are all gone now. It ends with ... paraphrasing...see how > impermanent are the things of this world, how unsubstantial and > unsatisfactory. This is reason enough to be repelled by the things of this > world, enough to lose passion for them, enough to be liberated therefrom. 20129 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint op 08-03-2003 15:33 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Howard: > When I "see a tree", as I do right now looking out the window, > the concept (i.e. thought/idea) of 'tree' is repeatedly arising, > ceasing, rearising, ceasing again Dear Howard, I just have to laugh about your tree you always see, because I can imagine your study with the window. I see the bookshelves, and on it somewhere in a corner there is a dusty book, the Visuddhimagga. Maybe the hint is too blunt :-) This book can help clarify a lot of things, Nina 20130 From: robmoult Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi Dharam, Your comments bring to mind episode #49 of "Dharma the Cat", titled "The Discourse". http://www.dharmathecat.com/ In this cartoon, Bidhi (the monk) is teaching Dharma (the cat) and says, "The first thing we'll discuss is getting beyond words and concepts." Bodhi then thinks, "Gee, where do I go from here?" The cat thinks, "Good! End of Discourse." The comment to this cartoon is, "Words are one kind of bridge to one level of understanding. On the Path, when you reach each such level, you leave each bridge behind. But you can't leave your bridge behind until you are beyond it." When dealing with "uninstructed worldlings" such as you and I, the Buddha was kind enough to use conventional terms (in fact, I can think of a few places where He acutally talked about trees). Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342" wrote: > "If a tree falls in the woods with none to hear, is there a sound?" > > Hi Rob M, > > What is a tree, what is falling, what are woods, what is none? Just > more mental proliferation taking concepts to be real? Can we even > get to address your philosophical question? > > uninstructed worldling, > dharam 20131 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 2:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contentment --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi all, > > Anyone would like to talk about contentment? Yes, please. Where would you like to start? I think I noticed one or two references to contentment in the materials Christine cited on modesty. Jon Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary': contentment: appicchatá, is one of the ascetic virtues. Cf. A. X, 181-90. 20132 From: bodhi342 Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 3:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi u.w. Rob M., Looks like the teaching (and learning) of conditions is conditional! Very apt! :-) u.w., dharam (relative of Dharma and Bodhi) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Dharam, > > Your comments bring to mind episode #49 of "Dharma the Cat", > titled "The Discourse". > > http://www.dharmathecat.com/ > > In this cartoon, Bidhi (the monk) is teaching Dharma (the cat) and > says, "The first thing we'll discuss is getting beyond words and > concepts." Bodhi then thinks, "Gee, where do I go from here?" The > cat thinks, "Good! End of Discourse." > > The comment to this cartoon is, "Words are one kind of bridge to one > level of understanding. On the Path, when you reach each such level, > you leave each bridge behind. But you can't leave your bridge behind > until you are beyond it." > > When dealing with "uninstructed worldlings" such as you and I, the > Buddha was kind enough to use conventional terms (in fact, I can > think of a few places where He acutally talked about trees). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342" > wrote: > > "If a tree falls in the woods with none to hear, is there a sound?" > > > > Hi Rob M, > > > > What is a tree, what is falling, what are woods, what is none? > Just > > more mental proliferation taking concepts to be real? Can we even > > get to address your philosophical question? > > > > uninstructed worldling, > > dharam 20133 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contentment Hi Jon and all, Thank you, Jon, for the response. To start, I have looked into the definition of the word "content" and found that it means desiring no more than what one has, satisfied, feeling or manisfesting satisfaction with one's possession, status, or situation. Contentment is the state of being content. I am thinking what the benefit of being content is, in what way it is wholesome. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Yes, please. Where would you like to start? I think I noticed one > or two references to contentment in the materials Christine cited on > modesty. > > Jon 20134 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contentment Victor Thanks. I think your definition is a good one. Some qualities are a specific wholesome mental factor (an example of this would be metta which, as you know, is the mental factor of alobha), while other qualities denote an absence of unwholesome mental factors in instances when these might normally arise (an example would be patience, which is not itself a specific mental factor). I would see contentment as falling into the latter category. A person who is content as you have defined it does not covet what another has, is not ambitious for the sake of worldly gain, is not envious, does not regret past opportunities missed, etc., and so does not experience any of these unwholesome mental states (some are lobha, some dosa) which another person might. In terms of the development of the path, contentment means being able to be honest with oneself regarding one's faults and present level of understanding, and accepting the present object as it is without wishing it were something else, with understanding. How do you see it? Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all, > > Thank you, Jon, for the response. To start, I have looked into the > definition of the word "content" and found that it means desiring > no more than what one has, satisfied, feeling or manisfesting > satisfaction with one's possession, status, or situation. > Contentment is the state of being content. I am thinking what the > benefit of being content is, in what way it is wholesome. > > Regards, > Victor 20135 From: bodhi342 Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 8:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contentment Hi Victor, One way of looking at contentment: Knowing that you have all that is needed, and accepting that it is enough. It is wholesome because at the very least, it reduces craving for yet more. metta, u.w. dharam --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Jon and all, > > Thank you, Jon, for the response. To start, I have looked into the > definition of the word "content" and found that it means desiring no > more than what one has, satisfied, feeling or manisfesting > satisfaction with one's possession, status, or situation. > Contentment is the state of being content. I am thinking what the > benefit of being content is, in what way it is wholesome. > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Yes, please. Where would you like to start? I think I noticed one > > or two references to contentment in the materials Christine cited > on > > modesty. > > > > Jon 20136 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 10:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings TG and Rob M (and Nina) Other useful references are the passages in Visuddhi-Magga (XX, 22-42) and Abhidhammattha-Sangaha (CMA VI, 9-22) that describe how rupas are generated by 1 or other of 4 causes, namely, kamma, consciousness, nutriment and temperature. Only for those rupas whose mode of origin is consciousness can it be said that their arising depends on consciousness. Even then, they are not so conditioned by being the object of discernment, but in other ways. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear TG, > very good. The Buddha speaks about mount Vipulla, there were other > mountains > that were different and there will be other mountains. > And yes, such is the nature of rupa: in the Elephant's Footprint, > the earth, > water, fire, wind, these are impermanent. He talks about the outer > rupas. > Water dwindles away, nothing left. This is explained in > conventional terms. > Nina. > op 08-03-2003 05:24 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > > Specifically, I there's a sutta, I think > > in Samyutta, that talks about the things the Buddha had in a past > life and > > that they are all gone now. It ends with ... paraphrasing...see > how > > impermanent are the things of this world, how unsubstantial and > > unsatisfactory. This is reason enough to be repelled by the > things of this > > world, enough to lose passion for them, enough to be liberated > therefrom. 20137 From: Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/8/2003 5:00:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > I just have to laugh about your tree you always see, because I can imagine > your study with the window. I see the bookshelves, and on it somewhere in a > corner there is a dusty book, the Visuddhimagga. > Maybe the hint is too blunt :-) This book can help clarify > a lot of things, > Nina ======================= ;-)) Actually it's sitting on the second shelf of the bookcase near my bedside. I's not really dusty, because it often gets moved a bit as I take out books on either side of it! ;-) A little more seriously - I have read parts of it from time to time, but I do owe it a thorough going through! With metta, Howard 20138 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Calm and Insight.special practice? op 05-03-2003 16:52 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > >N: These texts pertain to Sariputta and Moggalana, and to the > attainments >> of the four Paths. > S: I don't think these texts pertain to only these two Chief Disciples. > I don't think I am reading some private stuff between them when I > read this sutta. N: All the same, we have to take into account what kind of persons they were and to what stages of enlightenment this passage refers to . Also, when reading suttas: we have to know: to whom was it addressed? > S:> I do not think with regard to myself of painful suppression of > defilements >> right now. We are slow, slow slow anyway. N: very good, I do agree that we are so slow. Good reminder, Swee Boon. S: What do you understand by the second stage of purification (citta > visuddhi or Purification of Mind)? My understanding is that > hindrances can be suppressed successfully in the practitioner in > this stage of purification. N: Citta visuddhi: the eight jhana attainments are included, but: there is no visuddhi at all without satipatthana. We have to remember this, whenever we see the word visuddhi. Also upacaara samaadhi is included, access concentration. During jhana no hindrances, you are right. After jhana: they appear again, and only through magga-citta can they be eradicated. No magga-citta without vipassana. Defilements have to be known as non-self. S: Shall I send the PDF document to you? I think it will be much > simpler this way. It's about 1.4 MB. Or shall I post it on the > section Files in this group? N: thank you for your offer, but this is too much for me. I just wanted to know which sutta of the M.S. he was referring to. N:>> They did not go apart to concentrate on the three characteristics. > S: Did not Ananda practise "ferociously" prior to the commencement of > the First Council, of which Venerable Maha-Kassapa reserved an > arahant seat for him? > > Wasn't he trying (and probably wishing with lobha) that he would > attain arahantship before the commencement of the First Council? N: He was exerting himself too much, that is why he could not attain. S: Although he achieved arahantship not while practising but while he > was lying down (to go to sleep?), can it be rightly said that his > prior "ferocious" practice did not condition the Maggas to arise > eventually? N: He was just laying down naturally, and sure he was aware of nama and rupa, he saw them as they really are, otherwise he could not have attained arahatship. A good example, as I see it, of natural practice. He may not have expected this to happen. I cannot see anything ferocious. S: If a sotapanna such as Ananda is "trying", why shouldn't worldlings? N: trying or effort, it is fine, so long as we realize it as only a kind of nama that is conditioned. > >S:Although one might not attain Magga while "trying", but don't you > think that this "trying" could very well be the major condition > that leads to Magga when one is "not trying"? N: As I see it, panna is the leader, but all the other good qualities are assisting too. Right effort is among these, but also detachment, alobha. No attachment to a result. Nina. 20140 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi Rob M, > Thanks TG, the "ideal" Sutta that would blow my theory to bits would > be one where the Buddha says, "O monks, such is the nature of > rupa.... (and then went on to explain without any reference to > consciousness, ethics, dependent origination, etc.)." > > Please let me know if you can find something that fits this > description. ..... Not exactly, but I discussed this topic before with you (esp. the sounds) and before that with Howard. Here are a couple of posts from those discussions which related to references in the texts about external rupas and specifically on sounds not experienced (e.g. the waterfall or tree falling in the forest). you could follow the links to others. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17105 http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9946.html Also if you follow posts under ‘Rupas’ in U.P., I think you’ll find more references which others have given. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts We read in the Mulapariyaya Sutta about the uninstructed worldling who ‘perceives earth as earth’ (pathavi”m pathavito sa~njaanaati) and so on, not understanding these as rupas, as elements. In the commentary we read that earth (pathavi) is fourfold in meaning and that all the meanings are relevant in this context. These four meanings are: 1. characteristic earth (lakkha.napathavi) as in “What, friends, is the internal earth element? that which is internal, belonging to oneself, hard, solid” (M28) 2. Composite earth (sasambhaarapathavi) as in “If he should dig the earth, or cause the earth to be dug” (Viniv33). The 20 parts of the body beginning with head-haris etc, and the external elements such as iron and copper are also included in composite earth 3. Objectified earth (aaramma.napathavi) as in “Someone perceives the earth-kasina” (D33), where the arammanapathavi is the earth-kasina or earth sign (nimittapathavi) 4. Earth as conventional designation (sammutipathavi) as in when somebody who obtains jhana with the earth-kasina as basis is reborn in a deva realm and is called an “earth deity”. ..... We also read a little later that the external earth element is “whatever is external, and is hard, solid, hardness, the state of being hard, exterior, not kammically acquired, such as : iron, copper, tin, led, silver, pearl, gem........rock, mountain”. This is the same for the other elements, regardless of whether they are experienced or not. Of course it is the ‘conceiving and delight’ and the wrong view on account of the various elements that is the root of all harm and therefore the emphasis in the Teachings. We read further: “For what reason does the worldling conceive earth? Why does he conceive and delight in earth?” the answer is: “Because it has not been fully understood by him.” Not sure if this helps. I’ll be glad to hear. Sarah ====== 20141 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 1:56am Subject: [dsg] Wrong view/Ditthi vs. Conceit/Mana (was, Dukkha as Medicine?) Azita You wrote in a post (some time ago now): > ... which brings me to the question I have on Mana, > to be kindly answered by anyone who can help me out > here. Mana does not arise with Ditthi, right? This is correct, I believe. According to Nina's 'Cetasikas' Ch 16, both ditthi and mana arise with citta rooted in lobha, but mana arises with the lobha-mula citta that is not accompanied by mana. > But in my observation, it would seem that they > somehow are very closely connected. for example, when > we are comparing ourselves to the others, we have this > view of the others as being something to be compared > with. Surely we are having a 'view' at that moment. I have just the same kind of idea, they seem to be closely connected. In fact of course, from all the 'objective' evidence, they are not, so it's interesting to consider why it should appear this way. (By 'objective evidence' here I refer to (a) the descriptions of each given in the texts, and (b) the fact that while ditthi is eradicated upon the attainment of the first stage of the path, mana is not eradicated until the final stage, so there is plenty of opportunity for mana to arise even when there is no longer any trace of ditthi remaining.) For me it is a case of the idea that conceit (mana) more likely than not involves some degree of self-view, which I think of as an aspect of ditthi. It does not seem to be a case of the idea that holding self-view probably involves conceit (for me, at least -- I don’t know if it's the same for others.) I suppose this reflects the fact that there is insufficient direct knowledge of the characteristic of one or other (or both). In fact if we look at the descriptions of each (see extracts from 'Cetasikas' Ch. 16 & 17 pasted below), there is no basis for this sort of idea. Ditthi is described more in terms of wrong practice than simply having an idea of a 'self' that is separate and distinct from other 'selves'. In other words, there can be strong 'me' versus 'them' idea without necessarily having any wrong ideas about the practice, or 'self-view' for that matter. Appendix 7 to 'Cetasikas' gives details of what akusala factors may arise with what other akusala factors. From that it seems that, apart from lobha (in which the citta is rooted) and the 4 cetasikas that arise with every akusala citta (namely, moha/ignorance, ahiri/shamelessness, anotappa/recklessness and uddhacca/restlessness), the only other akusala cetasikas that may arise together with ditthi are thina and middha (sloth and torpor). Thus, other factors that we might be inclined to identify with a strong idea of 'me' vs. 'them', such as envy, stinginess, also do not arise with wrong view. I don't know if this helps. It was useful for me, anyway ;-)) Jon From 'Cetasikas' Chs 16, 17 A. Ditthi The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 248) gives the following definition of wrong view, ditthi: … It has unwise conviction as characteristic; perversion as function; wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to see the ariyans as proximate cause. It should be regarded as the highest fault. ... The Dhammasangaùi (§38) calls ditthi a “wrong road” and the Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter II, 253) explains: ... From being not the right path, it is a “wrong path”. For just as one who is gone astray, although he holds that this is the path to such a village, does not arrive at a village, so a man of false opinions, although he holds that this is the path to a happy destiny, cannot get there; hence from being not the right path it is a wrong path. ... Ditthi has unwise conviction as characteristic. When there is ditthi one clings to a false view of reality. Its function is “perversion”: because of ditthi one takes for permanent what is impermanent, one takes for self what is not self. ... The proximate cause of ditthi is “the desire not to see the ariyans”, being without regard for them. If one does not listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the “good friend in Dhamma” and does not put it into practice, there are no conditions for the development of right understanding. B. Conceit Conceit, måna, is another akusala cetasika. There is conceit or pride when we consider ourselves important. Because of conceit we may compare ourselves with others. There can be conceit when we think ourselves better, equal or less than someone else. We may believe that there can be conceit only when we think ourselves better than someone else, but this is not so. There can be a kind of upholding of ourselves, of making ourselves important, while we compare ourselves with someone else, no matter in what way, and that is conceit. We read in the Dhammasangaùi (§1116): What is the Fetter of conceit? Conceit at the thought “I am the better man”; conceit at the thought “I am as good (as they)”; conceit at the thought “I am lowly”- all such sort of conceit, overweening conceitedness, loftiness, haughtiness, flaunting a flag, assumption, desire of the heart for self-advertisement— this is called conceit. The three ways of comparing oneself with others may occur in someone who is actually superior, in someone who is actually equal and in someone who is actually inferior. Under this aspect there are nine kinds of conceit. ... Even when we do not compare ourselves with someone else we may find ourselves important and then there is conceit. ... The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter III, 256) gives the following definition of conceit: ... Herein conceit is fancying (deeming, vain imagining). It has haughtiness as characteristic, self-praise as function, desire to (advertise self like) a banner as manifestation, greed dissociated from opinionativeness as proximate cause, and should be regarded as (a form of) lunacy. 20142 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Modesty Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for your response. Modesty is a quality that I see in many > people, people who are decent and moderate, not ostentatious. They > exercise self-restraint and are not extreme in behavior and in > speech. Even if they are powerful and wealthy, they are not > concerned about impressing other with power and wealth. People with > modesty are less likely to arouse jealousy in others. They are less > likely to make enemy. ..... You've made some good suggestions. I'd be glad to see some of the suttas you always have at hand in support. Maybe Christine will also have some. I understand what you mean and agree, conventionally speaking at least. In 'absolute terms' the wholesome states must relate to the consciousness and mental states rather than the outer appearance which we may get many clues from but which can never be used as a criterion, don't you think? For example, if someone wears an expensive piece of jewellery or a rolex watch, it may be for many different reasons and likewise if someone doesn't wear these. That was why I quoted from the Atthasalini about conceit and the 'waving of the banner' which could apply to either of these people and the helpful reminders about Rahula who wasn't concerned about himself or why he was neglected. Even the Buddha and main disciples aroused great jealousy in others (unintentionally of course) and had many enemies. Look f/w to hearing more. Metta, Sarah ===== 20143 From: robmoult Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi Jon, I acknowledge that the Buddha talked about "external rupas" as having the characterisitic of impermanence. I don't see this as undermining my argument. I know that the Visuddhi-Magga and Abhidhammattha-Sangaha discuss the origin of rupas (4 causes). My view is that this was the result of later commentators who felt the need to "scientific-ize" the Buddha's teachings. Let me give you an example of where the later commentators added a "scientific" aspect to the teachings (and got it wrong). The physical base that supports all cittas other than the two sets of five sense-door consciousness cittas is called in the Abhidhammattha- Sangha and the Visuddhi-Magga is called the heart-base (hadayavatthu). In the CMA (III 20, p 144) Bikhu Bodhi says, "In the canonical Abhidhamma, the heart-base is not expressly mentioned. The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, simply speaks of 'that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind- consciousness element occur'. The Commentaries, however, subsequently specify 'that matter' to be the heart-base, a cavity situated within the physical heart." The ancients needed a theory of how sensation could be carried from the source (eye, ear, nose, tongue, skin) to the destination (the physical base supporting the mind). The only thing the ancients could see moving in the body was blood, so they assumed (incorrectly) that sensation was transmitted through the blood. Since the heart was obviously responsible for moving the blood around, it became the "physical base for the mind". My point here is that the Buddha never named the heart as the physical basis for the mind. The Buddha did not name the heart because it would have been incorrect and giving the correct information (whatever the correct information is) would have been entering into a realm of "science". As a side note, we still don't know what the true physical base for the mind is. We might think that it is the "brain" or the "nervous system", but these do not start to form until the fifth week after conception (I think). So what is the rupa that supports the patisandhi citta? According to the "other" Abhidhamma in Daily Life (by Ashin Janakabhivamsa): "With the occurrence of patisandhi citta and corresponding cetasikas, there comes into being a minute matter called kalala-rupa in the form of a clear fluid. This matter takes the form of a droplet the size of a drop of oil clinging to the trip of a hair of a damsel from the Northern Continent. This kalala droplet (the very first stage of formulation of foetus) is formed by the kammic forces of past deeds. It is neither semen nor ovule of his parents, they are supporting agents of this kalala. A kalala droplet is produced by produced by a child's past kamma but parents' semen and ovule are essential supports for pregnancy to take place. The kalala droplet is like the seed; semen and ovule are like the moist sail or swamp; past kamma is like the farmer. Therefore a clean ovary and healthy semen and ovule are essential. Otherwise the foetus cannot develop into a healthy baby." To me, "kalala-rupa" is another later writer's attempt to "scientific-ize" the Abhidhamma. Jon, I guess my point is that later works such as the Visuddhi Magga and the Abhidhammattha Sangaha may have been distorted (scientific- ized). I think, as a minimum, we can agree that the nature of matter that does not impact the senses was an extremely minor issue to the Buddha (though it may have been important to later writers). Again, a Sutta where the Buddha talked about the nature of matter without reference to ethical issues would blow my theory apart. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > TG and Rob M (and Nina) > > Other useful references are the passages in Visuddhi-Magga (XX, > 22-42) and Abhidhammattha-Sangaha (CMA VI, 9-22) that describe how > rupas are generated by 1 or other of 4 causes, namely, kamma, > consciousness, nutriment and temperature. > > Only for those rupas whose mode of origin is consciousness can it be > said that their arising depends on consciousness. Even then, they > are not so conditioned by being the object of discernment, but in > other ways. > > Jon > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear TG, > > very good. The Buddha speaks about mount Vipulla, there were other > > mountains > > that were different and there will be other mountains. > > And yes, such is the nature of rupa: in the Elephant's Footprint, > > the earth, > > water, fire, wind, these are impermanent. He talks about the outer > > rupas. > > Water dwindles away, nothing left. This is explained in > > conventional terms. > > Nina. > > op 08-03-2003 05:24 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > > > > Specifically, I there's a sutta, I think > > > in Samyutta, that talks about the things the Buddha had in a past > > life and > > > that they are all gone now. It ends with ... paraphrasing...see > > how > > > impermanent are the things of this world, how unsubstantial and > > > unsatisfactory. This is reason enough to be repelled by the > > things of this > > > world, enough to lose passion for them, enough to be liberated > > therefrom. > > > 20144 From: robmoult Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi Sarah, I am about to get on a long flight and was wondering what "airplane reading" to take along. I have now decided to take, "The Discourse on the Root of Existence", Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta and its commentaries. Thanks for the prompting. Metta, Rob M :-) 20145 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg]the noting Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I find this in particular very helpful. Awareness of visible object and > still an idea of, I have to note this. Then the reality could be lobha, > thinking with lobha, or even aversion, some slight uneasiness that > visible > object is so difficult. Or "omaana"(minority) conceit: poor me, I am so > ignorant, thus, clinging to the importance of self. Or > ati-maana(superiority) conceit: hey, I make some progress.No end to all > the > different kilesas, but good to know. I am grateful for any reminder, ..... Yes, we may have an idea that knowing what visible object is may just be a technical matter of no great importance. On the contrary, I think that if there is no understanding or awareness of its characteristic when it appears as distinct from seeing and distinct from other rupas -- just a dhatu (element) with no self -- then I think there is also likely to be misunderstanding and lack of awareness about all other realities.I read recently in the Sammohavinodani about why the eyedoor is always given first and it is on account of common occurrence. There is seeing of visible objects now and attachment or aversion on account of these all the time. Just as we read in the Mulapariyayasutta, there is conceiving, proliferating and clinging to self, ideas of self and so on. I like your reminders about ‘omaana’ (‘poor me’) and ‘ati-maana’(hey, I make some progress). Reminds me of Dominique and the other girl James created in a post to Kimmy, one of the Star Kids. It impressed her so much. RobertK gave so many useful references from Vism about namas and rupas and the puppet similes. In ch X1X “Pufification by Overcoming Doubt’ we read more about how by understanding the nature of namas and rupas and about conditions, it becomes more apparent that other realities not being directly exerienced at this moment have the same characteristics and this is the way that doubt about realities is overcome: 6 “When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the past too its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence will be due to conditions.” This is not merely by thinking but by the deep understanding of present realities and their conditioned nature, so that there are no longer conditions to speculate or wonder with any doubt about rupas not yet experienced or those that have been experienced. In the same way, as I understand the texts, after understanding the conditioned nature of phenomena, by understanding the impermanence of what appears, ‘by inference from that, all formations are clearly seen as impermanent. Herein doubt is abandoned. When he brings to mind as painful, he correctly knows and sees occurrence. Hence...when he brings to mind as not-self, he correctly knows and sees the sign and occurrence. Hence “right seeing” is said.” I’m looking at these sections in Vism partly because you and Jon were discussing khandhas I believe. Under ‘comprehension by groups’in chXX we read about all the realities to be known and then : “So when a man comprehends the five aggregates by means of this comprehending as impermanent, etc, in its two hundred aspects, his comprehending as impermanent, painful and not-self, which is called ‘inductive insight’, is strengthened. Like you said in your other post (which I’ll come back to), when there is more understanding of paramattha sacca (absolute truth) and sammuti sacca (conventional truth), even when we read about ‘clenching the teeth’ or other actions that may appear to suggest a self making a big effort, we know there are just the various elements working in combinations and according to conditions. This has also been stressed recently in the ‘Way’ extracts, I think. Hence just as a piano-player can bring to mind any music learnt and all previous skills and knowledge in that regard, so any understanding developed can be applied with “right seeing” - not theoretically at all. I’m not sure that this touches on your discussion with Jon or the question raised that he’s meant to be re-raising in Bkk, because I don’t have any of the posts to hand. I’ll be glad to be corrected if I’ve barked up the wrong tree in any regard. These are difficult points because they relate to developed stages of insight. Metta, Sarah ===== 20146 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi Rob M, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I am about to get on a long flight and was wondering what "airplane > reading" to take along. I have now decided to take, "The Discourse > on the Root of Existence", Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the > Mulapariyaya Sutta and its commentaries. Thanks for the prompting. ..... Perfect! Such a small booklet containing so much wealth...you can read the quotes in context. Each time I open it a different passage attracts my attention like today it was the 4 kinds of pathavi(earth element)in context that I quoted. Look f/w to hearing more after your flight and thx for telling us about your Bkk stopover. Metta, Sarah ======== 20147 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I am about to get on a long flight and was wondering what "airplane > reading" to take along. I have now decided to take, "The Discourse > on the Root of Existence", Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the > Mulapariyaya Sutta and its commentaries. Thanks for the prompting. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi Rob M, After completion of this work, for something a little different, may I recommend this site: http://www.buddhadust.org/TheMulaPariyaya/examiningthemulapariyaya.htm It views and explains the Mulapariyaya Sutta as a type of 'spell' that when one comprehends distinctly and systematically, will lead to full insight, liberation. Interesting. Metta, James 20148 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 5:15am Subject: kom's letter Dear Kom, Thanks for answering my questions! Now I have another few! In Kiana's letter(#20041)-What is a laughing Buddha? How does it look like? Is mindfulness important to you? Well that is it! Metta, Janice 20149 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 5:19am Subject: y letter to Kiana Dear Kiana, I'm Janice! I hope you still remember me from one of your Saturday class! (The class right after the Christmas holiday!) Well, Happy belated Birthday! In fact my one was on March 5th (I'm 12 now). Here are a few questions about the book "Buddha": Is that book very interesting to you? According to your book how many Buddhas are there in the world? Metta, Janice 20150 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Rob M Actually, my interest in this thread is pretty much limited to the textual references and in particular to a passage you quoted from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha-dipanipali. I quoted back from the CMA translation to show that your passage may have carried a different meaning than the one you were giving it. I was under the impression that you relied on the passage from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha-dipanipali as support for your position on rupas. In view of your comments below I'm not clear if this is still the case (and if it isn't, whether you have any other textual support for your theory). However, if you don't mind, I'd rather not get into a debate on the issue you raise below, which I see as being something else altogether ;-)) (I'm afraid I wouldn't really know where to start!). Jon PS Reading your message over again just now, it strikes me that you may have missed the reply I refer to above. It is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20121 --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I acknowledge that the Buddha talked about "external rupas" as > having the characterisitic of impermanence. I don't see this as > undermining my argument. > > I know that the Visuddhi-Magga and Abhidhammattha-Sangaha discuss > the origin of rupas (4 causes). My view is that this was the result > of later commentators who felt the need to "scientific-ize" the > Buddha's teachings. > > Let me give you an example of where the later commentators added > a "scientific" aspect to the teachings (and got it wrong). ... 20151 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 6:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Modesty Hi Sarah, I think being modest, being moderate in behavior and expression, being not self-aggrandizing and ostentacious, not waving the banner is peaceful. It is agitating to "wave the banner" and to be self- aggrandizing, and I think that being modest, one is less agitated, less stressful. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] > You've made some good suggestions. I'd be glad to see some of the suttas > you always have at hand in support. Maybe Christine will also have some. > I understand what you mean and agree, conventionally speaking at least. > > In 'absolute terms' the wholesome states must relate to the consciousness > and mental states rather than the outer appearance which we may get many > clues from but which can never be used as a criterion, don't you think? > For example, if someone wears an expensive piece of jewellery or a rolex > watch, it may be for many different reasons and likewise if someone > doesn't wear these. That was why I quoted from the Atthasalini about > conceit and the 'waving of the banner' which could apply to either of > these people and the helpful reminders about Rahula who wasn't concerned > about himself or why he was neglected. > > Even the Buddha and main disciples aroused great jealousy in others > (unintentionally of course) and had many enemies. > > Look f/w to hearing more. > > Metta, > > Sarah 20152 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint Dear Howard, I am glad you did not find me too blunt. I am like Ken, when I have sent something I think, was this not too much? Nina op 09-03-2003 08:58 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > A little more seriously - I have read parts of it from time to time, but I do > owe it a thorough going through! 20153 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 7:29am Subject: the Way Hi Larry, I am missing your challenging and stimulating remarks. Is it your computer, or lack of time? I understand. Reading about the elements involved when lifting feet, etc. we do not have to think or pinpoint, but it can remind us now, while walking: elements impinging on elements. A wonderful reminder. I thought of it when walking. The text on the bhikkhu who kept on sitting down or standing when unaware: I had difficulties with that and asked A. Sujin. She said:< those were his accumulations.> He was very special, about to reach arahatship, we do not have to imitate him. If he had not realized that whatever he did it was conditioned, just nama, he could not have realized arahatship. Nina. 20154 From: m. nease Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contentment Dear Jon, Victor, Dharam et al., 'Modesty' and 'contentment' are the first two of the 'eight thoughts of a great person' (sorry if this has been pointed out earlier): The Blessed One said, "Now, what are the eight thoughts of a great person? This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak. This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication." Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta To Anuruddha It occurs to me that (1) these 'thoughts' are in the conventional terms of the suttas and as such maybe refer to ideas and concepts rather than to paramattha dhammas (?) and (2) the Buddha spoke this discourse to Anuruddha shortly before his total enlightenment so may refer to very rarified states. Still an old favorite, though. mike 20155 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 7:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contentment Hi Jon, Thanks. This is how I see it: I think that being content is being satisfied with what one has got: food, clothes, lodgings, etc. It is being not acquisitive and covetous, but being happy with his or her possession. I would think it is hard to be happy if one is not content with what he or she has got. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Thanks. I think your definition is a good one. > > Some qualities are a specific wholesome mental factor (an example of > this would be metta which, as you know, is the mental factor of > alobha), while other qualities denote an absence of unwholesome > mental factors in instances when these might normally arise (an > example would be patience, which is not itself a specific mental > factor). > > I would see contentment as falling into the latter category. A > person who is content as you have defined it does not covet what > another has, is not ambitious for the sake of worldly gain, is not > envious, does not regret past opportunities missed, etc., and so does > not experience any of these unwholesome mental states (some are > lobha, some dosa) which another person might. > > In terms of the development of the path, contentment means being able > to be honest with oneself regarding one's faults and present level of > understanding, and accepting the present object as it is without > wishing it were something else, with understanding. > > How do you see it? > > Jon 20156 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contentment Hi Dharam, Yes, I agree. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > One way of looking at contentment: > > Knowing that you have all that is needed, and accepting that it is > enough. > > It is wholesome because at the very least, it reduces craving for yet > more. > > metta, > u.w. dharam 20157 From: m. nease Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 8:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle > Of course it seems that concepts arise and fall away, and this is the > experience of us all. However, there is no statement to this effect > in the teachings, as far as I am aware, so I think it's a proposition > that needs careful considering. Agreed--I think care needs to be taken with the terminology ('arising and falling away')to avoid confusion/equivocation. mike 20158 From: Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint Hi Nina, you wrote: "Dear Howard, I just have to laugh about your tree you always see, because I can imagine your study with the window. I see the bookshelves, and on it somewhere in a corner there is a dusty book, the Visuddhimagga." Is the mental image of Howard's tree a nimita (sign)? Is a mental image considered to be a concept? The mental image for me is generic and somewhat ideal, for Howard it may be specific and "flawed". Would the generic and ideal image be a counterpart sign and the specific and flawed image be a learning sign? Larry 20159 From: Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi Rob M. In my view, the Buddha taught the greatest or perfect science. The fact that the commentaries screwed up with their analysis (and I agree with your heart base reference) isn't because they added science, its because they added speculation! If it weren't for science, we might be agreeing with their speculation at this moment! In fact, some do even today because they "hold to a doctrine." The "scientific" brilliance about the Buddha's teaching is that there is almost nothing in it that's arguable because the Dependent Origination formula is so perfect in its principled "scientific" accuracy... This being, that is, With the arising of this, that arises. This not being, that is not, With the ceasing of this, that ceases. Abhidhamma: IMO, the whole thing is an attempt to "scientific-ize" the Buddha's teaching. They did a good job from from what I can understand especially when they stick to what is in the suttas. But there are flaws. IMO, they flawed on several technical points that modern science has been able to knock holes in. The heart base is one, the object of sight, sound not "meeting" the eye, ear is another. (We can only experience contacts. Light does indeed meet the eye, sound does indeed meet the ear. Abhidhammist's did not seem to be aware of those physical movements.) Abhidhamma's general gist of speaking in terms of " ultimate realities" makes me uncomfortable as well. However, In terms of elements, mental factors and types of consciousness, and how they interact; Abhidhamma is a brilliant analysis. I don't know how accurate it is, but I consider it a useful model in contemplating conditionality. The Buddha said ...paraphrasing... -- when something is spoken well and true, regard it as the Buddha's teaching, as something that accords with dhamma. -- With this in mind, what modern science might provide that is true, and beneficial should be happily accepted. What is harmful, inaccurate/speculative, should not be accepted. Abhidhamma should be approached in the same way, and even the suttas for that matter. TG > I acknowledge that the Buddha talked about "external rupas" as > having the characterisitic of impermanence. I don't see this as > undermining my argument. > > I know that the Visuddhi-Magga and Abhidhammattha-Sangaha discuss > the origin of rupas (4 causes). My view is that this was the result > of later commentators who felt the need to "scientific-ize" the > Buddha's teachings. > > Let me give you an example of where the later commentators added > a "scientific" aspect to the teachings (and got it wrong). The > physical base that supports all cittas other than the two sets of > five sense-door consciousness cittas is called in the Abhidhammattha- > Sangha and the Visuddhi-Magga is called the heart-base > (hadayavatthu). In the CMA (III 20, p 144) Bikhu Bodhi says, "In the > canonical Abhidhamma, the heart-base is not expressly mentioned. The > Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, simply speaks > of 'that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind- > consciousness element occur'. The Commentaries, however, > subsequently specify 'that matter' to be the heart-base, a cavity > situated within the physical heart." The ancients needed a theory of > how sensation could be carried from the source (eye, ear, nose, > tongue, skin) to the destination (the physical base supporting the > mind). The only thing the ancients could see moving in the body was > blood, so they assumed (incorrectly) that sensation was transmitted > through the blood. Since the heart was obviously responsible for > moving the blood around, it became the "physical base for the mind". > My point here is that the Buddha never named the heart as the > physical basis for the mind. The Buddha did not name the heart > because it would have been incorrect and giving the correct > information (whatever the correct information is) would have been > entering into a realm of "science". > > As a side note, we still don't know what the true physical base for > the mind is. We might think that it is the "brain" or the "nervous > system", but these do not start to form until the fifth week after > conception (I think). So what is the rupa that supports the > patisandhi citta? According to the "other" Abhidhamma in Daily Life > (by Ashin Janakabhivamsa): > > "With the occurrence of patisandhi citta and corresponding > cetasikas, there comes into being a minute matter called kalala-rupa > in the form of a clear fluid. This matter takes the form of a > droplet the size of a drop of oil clinging to the trip of a hair of > a damsel from the Northern Continent. This kalala droplet (the very > first stage of formulation of foetus) is formed by the kammic forces > of past deeds. It is neither semen nor ovule of his parents, they > are supporting agents of this kalala. > > A kalala droplet is produced by produced by a child's past kamma but > parents' semen and ovule are essential supports for pregnancy to > take place. The kalala droplet is like the seed; semen and ovule are > like the moist sail or swamp; past kamma is like the farmer. > Therefore a clean ovary and healthy semen and ovule are essential. > Otherwise the foetus cannot develop into a healthy baby." > > To me, "kalala-rupa" is another later writer's attempt > to "scientific-ize" the Abhidhamma. > > Jon, I guess my point is that later works such as the Visuddhi Magga > and the Abhidhammattha Sangaha may have been distorted (scientific- > ized). > > I think, as a minimum, we can agree that the nature of matter that > does not impact the senses was an extremely minor issue to the > Buddha (though it may have been important to later writers). > > Again, a Sutta where the Buddha talked about the nature of matter > without reference to ethical issues would blow my theory apart. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > 20160 From: Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] the Way Hi Nina, Sorry for being so silent on the "Way" thread. It's just that the section on clear comprehension hasn't stimulated my brain to say anything; and there's 40 pages of it; the longest section in the commentary! I've been slowly reading the concentration section in Visuddhimagga and it's clarifying little by little but I think I need to bring in Vimuttimagga and Patisambhidamagga. I haven't been able to find anyone who is willing to describe their own experience (except Howard). Where's all the arahants??? Larry 20161 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 11:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] kom's letter Hi Janice! > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > > In Kiana's letter(#20041)-What is a laughing Buddha? > How does it look like? A laughing Buddha is an Eastern-Asian rendition of what they believe the Buddha represents (laughing, with pot belly): some believe he would bring good luck and prosperity. You may have seen the image in temples / other places in Hong Kong. The Buddhist texts don't describe the Buddha in that way. The Buddha is described to be very good-looking (and definitely without pot belly), and because of his facial feature, he may look like he was always smiling. Once he became a Buddha, he didn't laugh, but once in a while, gave slight smiles. > Is mindfulness important to you? I wouldn't be following the Buddha's path without mindfulness. For those who follow the Buddha's path, mindfulness is very important. kom 20162 From: Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contentment Hi Victor, Here is the sutta on the ariya vamsa: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-028.html Notice there is contentment with the requisites of life and also delight in bhavana (mental development). The commentary to Kassapasamyutta in SN 16.1, p. 662 Wisdom edition says the following: Spk [SN Commentary] discusses a threefold typology of contentment: (i) contentment that accords with one's gains, i.e., remaining content with any gains, whether fine or course; (ii) content that accords with one's ability, i.e., remaining content with whatever one needs to sustain one's health; and (iii) contentment that accords with suitability, i.e., disposing with any luxury items received and retaining only the most basic requisites. L: This sutta also discusses wrong speech that may arise due to discontent with requisites. Larry 20163 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 1:17pm Subject: Re: I understand --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > It would be amazing to know > that you are going to teach in Cairo, Eygpt. I went > to Cairo a few years ago and it was very hot there. I > am also quite sad about your brother's death. Are you > the only one left in your family? Now I understand > more about the temple! > > What can you do there besides > from mediating? Do you stay for a couple of weeks? > Was it peaceful there? What else do you do to > become a Buddhist besides from what you have > explained to everyone? > > As always please send a poem!( > You do not need to send me so much or else you will > run out of them soon! > > > Metta, > > > Janice Hi Star Kid Janice! Yes, many people are amazed when they learn that I am going to teach in Cairo, Egypt. To them, it sounds so exotic…like maybe my last name is `Bond' as in `James Bond'! ;-) But it is not a big deal really. I am glad that it will be hot there because I like the heat. That is one reason I live in a desert now. Yes, I am the only sibling left and the only child alive from my parents. And now all of my grandparents have died. Next, my parents will die and then I will die. That's just the way it goes. No reason to be sad about any of it. I am glad that you understand more about the temple. There are many other things to do at the temple besides meditate: there are classes in Thai language and culture, classes in Buddhism, a library to enjoy with books on Buddhism and Thai culture, a garden and a fountain to enjoy, a banquet hall with a stage where they perform cultural shows, chickens and roosters on the grounds to feed, dogs to play with, places to light incense outside, and a great big bell that you can gong (but I wouldn't recommend doing that! ;-). I have stayed at the temple for 10-day-meditation retreats when I didn't leave the temple at all; but other than that I just visit for a few hours and then go back home. I think that I and the others who have written to you Star Kids have explained pretty much everything that goes into being a Buddhist. Being a Buddhist means taking refuge in the Triple Gem: The Buddha, The Dharma, and The Sangha. It doesn't mean being a `perfect person'; it just means looking toward those things for guidance and direction in your life. Okay Janice, I will end with another poem. Don't worry about me running out of them, there is a lot of poetry in the world to go around…I just can't guarantee that you will like all of them! ;-) Metta, James Big Lunch by Kenn Nesbitt I started arranging my alphabet soup, concocting big words to devour. I swallowed a B U I L D I N G. I gobbled a S T R E E T, and then I ingested a T O W E R. I snacked on a S U B W A Y. I bolted a B U S. I wolfed down a P A S S E N E R T R A I N. I chewed up M O N T A N A. I gulped I N D I A N A, then tossed down the whole S T A T E O F M A I N E. I ate the G R A N D C A N Y O N. I lunched on the R O C K I E S, and A S I A, I slurped from my cup. I would have been fine, but I started to dine on M Y H O M E W O R K, and then I threw up. 20164 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 4:24pm Subject: Re: Contentment Hi Larry, Thanks for the sutta reference. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Here is the sutta on the ariya vamsa: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-028.html > > Notice there is contentment with the requisites of life and also delight > in bhavana (mental development). The commentary to Kassapasamyutta in SN > 16.1, p. 662 Wisdom edition says the following: > > Spk [SN Commentary] discusses a threefold typology of contentment: (i) > contentment that accords with one's gains, i.e., remaining content with > any gains, whether fine or course; (ii) content that accords with one's > ability, i.e., remaining content with whatever one needs to sustain > one's health; and (iii) contentment that accords with suitability, i.e., > disposing with any luxury items received and retaining only the most > basic requisites. > > L: This sutta also discusses wrong speech that may arise due to > discontent with requisites. > > Larry 20165 From: Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 4:55pm Subject: Way 60, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear comprehension in going forwards and backwards, p. 77 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html [Tika] More fleet than the group of devas running before the Sun's chariot -- the group of devas in the shape of horses with keen-edged razors attached to their heads and hoofs, engaged in and taken to going, plunging forwards, some above and some below, but never knocking against each other, though moving close together -- is the moment of existence of material phenomena. [T] As the break-up of sesamum seeds that are roasted takes place almost at once with the sound of crackling, the destruction of conditioned phenomena takes place almost at once with phenomena's arising. For, similar to the crackling sound, the sign of the breaking up of the sesamum seeds, is arising the sign (indicatory) of the (eventual) breaking up of conditioned phenomena, owing to the destruction (inevitably and) assuredly of phenomena that have arisen. [T] Who is the one that goes forward? Just no one. [ko eko abhikkamati nabhikkamati yeva]. [T] Could it be said: Whose going forward is there? No. Why? In the highest sense, what takes place is the going, the standing, the sitting down, and the lying down of the processes. [T] The passage just mentioned is for dispelling the false idea of a self that goes forward which a confused blinded worldling is apt to possess or the passage is stated by way of objection and refutation. [T] With material form in the several divisions [tasmim tasmim kotthase rupena saddhim] means: with material form in the aforesaid sixfold division. [T] The conscious state of the thought-unit that comes into existence when any material form comes into existence, runs a course of its own and does not get into close contact with the material form in question, nor does it get into repeated contact or relation with that material form. Therefore it is said: one conscious state arises with material form and quite another ceases when that material form ceases. By reason of the absence of close or repeated contact [apaccamatthatta] of mind with matter this happens. Tension, oscillation or vibration of mind is quicker than that of matter, seventeen times. [T] The words: with material form in relation to the first sentence of the stanza mean: with whatsoever material form arising simultaneously with a conscious state [yena kenaci sahuppajjanakena rupena]. And the same words in relation to the second sentence of the stanza refer to the material form already arisen and existing at the starting point of the seventeenth thought-unit that occurs after the ceasing-phase of the thought-unit with which the aforesaid material form arose and which material form arisen already has a total duration from its arising to ceasing of seventeen consecutive thought-units and is possessed of the nature of ceasing together with the cessation of the seventeenth thought-unit mentioned above, namely, of the seventeenth thought-unit in its phase of dissolution or ceasing [dutiya pada sambandhe pana rupenati idam yam tato nirujjhamana cittato upari sattarasama cittassa uppadakkhane uppannam tadeva tassa nirujjhamana cittassa niroddhena saddhim nirujjhanakam sattarasa cittakkhanayukam rupam sandhaya vuttam]. [T] Material and mental phenomena would perhaps be taken as things of equal duration, if the matter were put in a different way to this. Should these two kinds of phenomena be wrongly considered as things of equal duration then there would be contradiction with such commentarial sayings as: "Material form is slow-changing, is tardy as regards ceasing," and with such textual sayings as: "I do not see a single thing so swiftly changing, o bhikkhus, as this mind" [aññatha ruparupadhamma samanayuka siyum yadi ca siyum atha rupam garu parinamam dandha nirodhanti adi atthakatha vacanehi naham bhikkhave eka dhammampi samanupassami evam lahu parivattam yathayidam bhikkave cittanti evamadi pali vacanehi ca virodho siya]. 20166 From: robmoult Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 4:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Hi TG, You have changed my mind. If we define the scope of the Buddha's teachings as ethics, four noble truths, soteriology and nama (nama in a general sense, including Nibbana), then the Buddha was the "ultimate scientist". Within this scope, the Buddha modeled, analyzed and classified to an incredible degree (as yet unmatched by "modern scientists"). This can be found in the Suttas, but particularly in the Abhidhamma. On the other hand, I feel that "modern scientists" may have a better handle on rupa "in general" than can be found in the scriptures or commentaries. I don't have an issue with this because rupa "in general" was not a big focus (maybe not a focus at all) of the Buddha, the Buddha concentrated (exclusively?) on rupa when it impacted ethics, four noble truths, soteriology and nama. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Rob M. > > In my view, the Buddha taught the greatest or perfect science. The fact that > the commentaries screwed up with their analysis (and I agree with your heart > base reference) isn't because they added science, its because they added > speculation! > > If it weren't for science, we might be agreeing with their speculation at > this moment! > In fact, some do even today because they "hold to a doctrine." > > The "scientific" brilliance about the Buddha's teaching is that there is > almost nothing in it that's arguable because the Dependent Origination > formula is so perfect in its principled "scientific" accuracy... > > This being, that is, > With the arising of this, that arises. > This not being, that is not, > With the ceasing of this, that ceases. > > Abhidhamma: IMO, the whole thing is an attempt to "scientific-ize" the > Buddha's teaching. They did a good job from from what I can understand > especially when they stick to what is in the suttas. But there are flaws. > IMO, they flawed on several technical points that modern science has been > able to knock holes in. The heart base is one, the object of sight, sound > not "meeting" the eye, ear is another. (We can only experience contacts. > Light does indeed meet the eye, sound does indeed meet the ear. > Abhidhammist's did not seem to be aware of those physical movements.) > Abhidhamma's general gist of speaking in terms of " ultimate realities" makes > me uncomfortable as well. However, In terms of elements, mental factors and > types of consciousness, and how they interact; Abhidhamma is a brilliant > analysis. I don't know how accurate it is, but I consider it a useful model > in contemplating conditionality. > > The Buddha said ...paraphrasing... -- when something is spoken well and true, > regard it as the Buddha's teaching, as something that accords with dhamma. -- > > With this in mind, what modern science might provide that is true, and > beneficial should be happily accepted. What is harmful, > inaccurate/speculative, should not be accepted. Abhidhamma should be > approached in the same way, and even the suttas for that matter. > > TG > > > > I acknowledge that the Buddha talked about "external rupas" as > > having the characterisitic of impermanence. I don't see this as > > undermining my argument. > > > > I know that the Visuddhi-Magga and Abhidhammattha-Sangaha discuss > > the origin of rupas (4 causes). My view is that this was the result > > of later commentators who felt the need to "scientific-ize" the > > Buddha's teachings. > > > > Let me give you an example of where the later commentators added > > a "scientific" aspect to the teachings (and got it wrong). The > > physical base that supports all cittas other than the two sets of > > five sense-door consciousness cittas is called in the Abhidhammattha- > > Sangha and the Visuddhi-Magga is called the heart-base > > (hadayavatthu). In the CMA (III 20, p 144) Bikhu Bodhi says, "In the > > canonical Abhidhamma, the heart-base is not expressly mentioned. The > > Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, simply speaks > > of 'that matter in dependence on which the mind element and mind- > > consciousness element occur'. The Commentaries, however, > > subsequently specify 'that matter' to be the heart-base, a cavity > > situated within the physical heart." The ancients needed a theory of > > how sensation could be carried from the source (eye, ear, nose, > > tongue, skin) to the destination (the physical base supporting the > > mind). The only thing the ancients could see moving in the body was > > blood, so they assumed (incorrectly) that sensation was transmitted > > through the blood. Since the heart was obviously responsible for > > moving the blood around, it became the "physical base for the mind". > > My point here is that the Buddha never named the heart as the > > physical basis for the mind. The Buddha did not name the heart > > because it would have been incorrect and giving the correct > > information (whatever the correct information is) would have been > > entering into a realm of "science". > > > > As a side note, we still don't know what the true physical base for > > the mind is. We might think that it is the "brain" or the "nervous > > system", but these do not start to form until the fifth week after > > conception (I think). So what is the rupa that supports the > > patisandhi citta? According to the "other" Abhidhamma in Daily Life > > (by Ashin Janakabhivamsa): > > > > "With the occurrence of patisandhi citta and corresponding > > cetasikas, there comes into being a minute matter called kalala- rupa > > in the form of a clear fluid. This matter takes the form of a > > droplet the size of a drop of oil clinging to the trip of a hair of > > a damsel from the Northern Continent. This kalala droplet (the very > > first stage of formulation of foetus) is formed by the kammic forces > > of past deeds. It is neither semen nor ovule of his parents, they > > are supporting agents of this kalala. > > > > A kalala droplet is produced by produced by a child's past kamma but > > parents' semen and ovule are essential supports for pregnancy to > > take place. The kalala droplet is like the seed; semen and ovule are > > like the moist sail or swamp; past kamma is like the farmer. > > Therefore a clean ovary and healthy semen and ovule are essential. > > Otherwise the foetus cannot develop into a healthy baby." > > > > To me, "kalala-rupa" is another later writer's attempt > > to "scientific-ize" the Abhidhamma. > > > > Jon, I guess my point is that later works such as the Visuddhi Magga > > and the Abhidhammattha Sangaha may have been distorted (scientific- > > ized). > > > > I think, as a minimum, we can agree that the nature of matter that > > does not impact the senses was an extremely minor issue to the > > Buddha (though it may have been important to later writers). > > > > Again, a Sutta where the Buddha talked about the nature of matter > > without reference to ethical issues would blow my theory apart. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > > > 20167 From: Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 60, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 Hi all, This section, "Clear comprehension in going forwards and backwards", might be a good one to contemplate on a long journey. It says in part (I think) what we perceive as movement is really the successive arising and ceasing of different dhammas, and also of course, there is no person who goes. Larry 20168 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 7:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Dharam --- bodhi342 wrote: > "If a tree falls in the woods with none to hear, is there a sound?" > > Hi Rob M, > > What is a tree, what is falling, what are woods, what is none? > Just > more mental proliferation taking concepts to be real? Can we even > get to address your philosophical question? > > uninstructed worldling, > dharam I agree with the thrust of your post here, that such questions per se have little or no relevance to the development of an understanding of the presently arising dhammas. On the other hand, I would not see the question as being necessarily a purely philosophical one, in that sound like every other dhamma is said to arise because of conditions and those conditions can be found enumerated and explained in different parts of the teachings. It doesn't hurt to look into some of these lesser studied areas, since they are all there for a reason. Also, from another angle, while knowing the answer no doubt won't get one any closer to enlightenment, it's conceivable that holding a positive view that is contrary to the 'correct answer' could be an obstacle to the development of understanding (not that I'm suggesting that is likely to be the case among any memebers here ;-)). Thanks for your observations. (Fellow u.w.) Jon 20169 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] M 1: 120, 18-19, about different ways of eliminating unwholesome thoughts Dear Nina, nina van gorkom wrote: > On your request I am sending you what I studied, only part of this > interesting but long Co. on M, I, sutta 20, Discourse on the Forms of > Thought, vitakkasanthanasutta. The part I referred to is the fourth way > of > eliminating bad thoughts: vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana, attend to the > thought function and form of those thoughts. ..... In the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation this is MN20. I’ve snipped much of your post with the many helpful comments for now. The last part you refer to was also discussed by Jon and Mike some time back (Oct01 to be exact). I’ll quote from it at the end of the post as you may not have seen it and I know you’re not keen on links;-) : Let me start by adding some of B.Bodhi’s notes to MA (the comy) : 1.At the start of the text, we read the reference to the bhikkhu ‘pusuing the higher mind’ and giving attention to ‘five signs’. MA: “The higher mind (adhicitta) is the mind of the eight meditative attainments used as a basis for insight; it is called “higher mind” because it is higher than the ordinary (wholesome) mind of the ten wholesome courses of action. The five “signs” (nimitta) may be understood as practical methods of removing the distracting thoughts. They should be resorted to only when the distractions become persistent or obtrusive; at other times the meditator should remain with his primary subject of meditation.” 2.The text continues with the passage about unwholesome thoughts and giving attention to “some other sign connected with what is wholesome”. MA: “When thoughts of sensual desire arise directed towards living beings, the “other sign” is the meditation on foulness (see MN 10.10); when the thoughts are directed to inanimate things, the “other sign” is attention to impermanence. When thoughts of hate rise directed towards living beings, the “other sign” is the meditation on loving-kindness; when they are directed to inanimate things, the “other sign” is atention to the elements (see MN 10.12). The rememdy for thoughts connected with delusion is living under a teacher, studying the Dhamma, inquiring into its meaning, listening to the Dhamma, and inquiring into causes.” ..... N: > Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we > have to > think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are > called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are > accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them. > The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought > function > and form of those thoughts. ..... MA: “vitakka-sankhaara-sa.n.thaana”m. MA understands sankhaara here as condition, cause, or root, and takes the compound to mean “stopping the cause of the thought.” This is accomplished by inquiring, when an unwholesome thought has arisen: “What is it cause? What is the cause of its cause?” etc. Such an inquiry, according to the MA, brings about a slackening, and eventually the cessation, of the flow of unwholesome thought.” ..... N; > The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to > walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to > walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj) > of > that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the > traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation > subject. > When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is > compared > to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu, > with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who > lies > down. > Also in another sutta it is said that thinking travels. ..... This is very interesting, Nina. I haven’t heard it before. Of course, it would be quite wrong in this context to walk slowly to attend to the ‘travelling thought’, as it would be to sit down to gain arahatship or to lie down for fruition attainment! ..... > The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word of the sutta: > the > citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as foundation > vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas. The monk > does > not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have conditions, > he > can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara, realities > conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even when, > as we > read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he can realize > that > this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations, sa.nkhaara.(This > is my > opinion) ..... With regard to the passage about if unwholesome thoughts persist “connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes his mind with mind, then any evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion are abandoned in him and subside.” MA: “He should crush the unwholesome state of mind with a wholesome state of mind.” > The Commentary is long but very interesting, many similes. What is also > stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask > questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma > is > .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha > can > be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right > conditions for vipassana. ..... I like the teeth clenching example because again it's according to accumulations and daily life. We can do anything with right or wrong view of realities, I think. No rules! I was listening to a tape of K.Sujin’s recently on which she was stressing the considering. Even if we are with a teacher or listening or reading, it depends on the careful considering over and over again. Sukin also referred to this recently -- how it’s not just a matter of studying details or being with the good friends, but really considering and applying what is said. Metta, Sarah ====== From Jon’s earlier post to Mike: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m4613.html J:>>What the Buddha encourages throughout the Tipitaka, consistently and constantly, is the development of kusala of all kinds, but particularly of the level that leads out of samsara (ie, satipatthana/vipassana). So any reference to, say, effort should be read in the light of these ever present themes. We tend to overlook the fact that moments of so-called 'effort to have kusala' must be either kusala or akusala -- they cannot be of some indeterminate and harmless quality. The Buddha must of course be taken as referring to the wholesome one (I'm sure no-one would seriously suggest otherwise). But then, if the moment of 'effort to have kusala' is itself kusala, it's not really effort *to have* kusala because it already *is* kusala. The passage you quote below is an interesting one. As you say, it refers to the development of samatha at very high levels, and so has no immediate application to our present situation. Insofar as it is prescriptive, it seems to me to be cautionary more than anything else. M:> "There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts -> connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- arise > in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a > particular theme. He should attend to another theme, > apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. > When he is attending to this other theme, apart from > that one, connected with what is skillful, then those > evil, unskillful thoughts -- connected with desire, > aversion, or delusion -- are abandoned and subside. > With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right > within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. J:What the Buddha is saying here, I think, is that even though a monk may be developing samatha ("while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme") it is still possible for akusala to arise ("unskilful thoughts -- connected with desire, aversion, or delusion -- arise") and, if it does, he should drop the particular object ("attend to another theme") rather than continue with the one to which he usually attends. The object that replaces it should be one that does not similarly condition akusala to arise (it should be an object that is "connected with what is skilful"), otherwise the mind is not concentrated in a kusala manner. Here, the attention/effort referred to is plainly meant to be kusala effort/intention only. Actually, there is an even more graphic example in the same sutta. Further on it says (trans. MLDB, p. 213) "If, while he is giving attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts, there still arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate and with delusion, then, with his teeth clenched and with his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he should beat down, constrain, and crush mind with mind." It would be easy to think that there is no plainer reference to deliberate effort/intention than this one ("with his teeth clenched and with his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he should beat down, constrain, and crush mind with mind"). However, when we read the commentary to this passage (MLDB p. 1206, n.243), it becomes clear that again it is a reference to the effort/intention that arises with kusala citta: "He should crush the unwholesome state of mind with a wholesome state of mind." So even the teeth-clenching must be kusala teeth-clenching! Finally, to return to the original passage you quoted, it mentions that akusala thoughts are of 3 kinds, ie connected with desire, with aversion or with delusion. Delusion is, of course, ignorance, the opposite of wisdom. The commentary says that for one in whom thoughts are connected with delusion (and guess who that means, folks), the remedy is "living under a teacher, studying the Dhamma, inquiring into its meaning, listening to the Dhamma, and inquiring into causes". I was struck how similar that 'remedy' is to the factors for the growth of wisdom that I quoted in a post to Howard recently (which, just to recap, were " association with superior persons, hearing the good Dhamma, proper attention and practice in accordance with the Dhamma"). So even in the context of samatha, the Buddha stressed the importance of satipatthana/vipassana>> ============ 20170 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Interesting that I've missed this all these years. Still getting used > to > the idea of thinking of di.t.thi as kamma. The volition in it doesn't > seem > obvious to me (it seems passive). I certainly take the word of the > tipitaka > for it though. Not the first counter-intuitive bit of Dhamma I've run > across. ..... Sometimes I think we also just hear what we are ready to hear at the time. I watch this process with the Star Kids too -- I don’t say anything at all, but see them just picking up those points they can handle and just leaving the rest aside without any anxiety or care. I’ve just picked out a few posts from U.P. under kamma and vipaka which I found it helpful to review and which I think are relevant to this discussion. I think you may find Num’s of particular interest. Looking at the dates, you may not have seen them before as I think they may have all been posted during your DSG break: Num’s http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10640 ..... Kom’s http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10655 ..... Nina’s http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12100 ..... Jon’s http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12064 ..... Larry’s (ADL): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12873 ..... Of course, you can follow the threads to other posts on the topic as well;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 20171 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Modesty Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I think being modest, being moderate in behavior and expression, > being not self-aggrandizing and ostentacious, not waving the banner > is peaceful. ..... Mike quoted from the Anuruddha Sutta and pointed out that: “Modesty' and 'contentment' are the first two of the 'eight thoughts of a great person'”: >The Blessed One said, "Now, what are the eight thoughts of a great person? This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing. Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta< ..... In B.Bodhi’s “Numerical Discourses’, he gives the translation “of few wishes’ instead of ‘who is modest’. I’m not sure if the Pali here is ‘appicchaata’ (of few wishes) which I understand to be the opposite of attachment and grasping in all their forms. From Sammohavinodani, Comy to Dhs, 846: “But some have said: “craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like the thief’s stretching out his hand in the dark: clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief’s grasping the goods. These states are opposed to FEWNESS OF WISHES (appicchaata) AND CONTENTMENT. Hence they are the roots of the suffering due to seeking and guarding (of property)”(see D ii58f)” Metta, Sarah ====== 20172 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 54, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 Dear Jim, Nina & Larry, I responded before to this section: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the > Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, 1. Clear comprehension in going > forwards and backwards, p. 69 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > > Men of good family, desirous of self-improvement, having become homeless > ones in the Dispensation of the Buddha, ..... The Comy notes that Soma gives are v.difficult to follow as I indicated before. Jim gave me the following comments: Jim:>>The Pali comes from Ps-p.t (tika) for MN10 on the CSCD disk. A similar passage is also found in the tika for the Samannaphala Sutta (DN 2). So, if you have B. Bodhi's translation with the cty and subcty, you might find another translation there. Jim:>> attakaamaati attano hitasukha.m icchantaa, dhammacchandavantoti attho. Soma p.95: > [Tika] "Desirous of self-improvement" (atta kamati) -- (Those bhikkhus) > wishing for personal good and well-being (attano hita sukhamicchanta) -- > those wishing for (delighting in, intent on) the Dhamma is the true > meaning [dhammacchandavantoti attho] Jim: For 'attakaama' [adj.] Cone in her dictionary has: "wishing one's own (spiritual) benefit". It is sometimes confused with 'atthakaama". dhammoti hi hita.m, tannimittaka~nca sukhanti. [note that many texts read just "dhammo" without the 'ti" and also note "sukha~nca tannimittaka.m" in some readings] Soma: -- by reason of the fact that the Dhamma is truly good and well-being [dhammo hi hitam sukhañca tannimittakam]. Jim: For "dhamma" [refers to] the good and the happiness resulting from this [the good??]. atha vaa vi~n~nuuna.m nibbisesattaa attabhaavapariyaapannattaa ca attaa naama dhammo, ta.m kaamenti icchantiiti attakaamaa. [in some readings there is an "atta" before "nibbisesattaa" ie. "attanibbisesattaa" or "attato nibbisesattaa" as below] Soma: Or to the wise the Dhamma is the self owing to the > absence of difference (of the Dhamma) from the self, and (because the > Dhamma is contained in the self) owing to the (Dhamma's) state of being > included in the living being [atha va viññanam attato nibbisesatta > attabhava pariyapannatta ca dhammo atta nama]. They (the bhikkhus who > have genuinely renounced, in the Dispensation of the Buddha) desire, > wish for, that (tam kamenti icchanti].[21] Jim: Note "viññanam" should read "viññunam" (to the wise). I think this passage is a difficult one to unravel and therefore to translate. It is an explanation of how dhamma can be called a self (two reasons are given). Here's my own tentative translation (if it makes any sense!): "a dhamma is called a self owing to the fact of it being included in self-existence(s?) and owing to being without differentiation from the selves of the knowing ones." ???>> ..... I spent more time on it but had to give up - this last part doesn’t quite make sense to me. Perhaps others may have ideas. Many thanks for your help, Jim Metta, Sarah ===== 20173 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:12am Subject: Questions from March weekend at Cooran Dear Group, I'm back from a weekend at Cooran, I've got the dog out of 'hock', and I'm sitting at the computer thinking over the Dhamma discussions of those two days and nights. It was a satisfyingly fulfilling time of learning, camaraderie, laughter and the strengthening of friendships. There were seven, occasionally eight, of us sharing our understandings, and we all agreed that new insights had been gained and some old difficulties ironed out. On Saturday, the conversation went non-stop from 7.00 a.m. until 9.00 p.m. before we reluctantly called it a day. And the formal meditators had been up an hour earlier. On this weekend some of the group offered their own ideas in informal papers, and some offered extracts or articles for discussion. Andrew presented his understanding of "Nama-Rupa - a presentation of the basic theory", Bruce (very briefly :-)) gave "Abhidhamma Studies", Andy offered an excerpt from "Be Here Now" ('Is it possible to have directed awareness?'), KenH spoke on "I can remember things, so how can there be Anatta?" and I led a reading of Bhikkhu Bodhi's article "Questions on Kamma". Though conversations were wide ranging and occasionally grew a little warm, it was stimulating and we are all looking forward to the next gathering. I think some of those blokes could talk under water. I'm getting used to them now - I don't naively believe everything they tell me with a straight face. :-) (Andrew, I wonder if, before next time, you could do something about those screeching sulphur crested cockatoos [maybe gags?] and that 'yearning' cow? [valium?] :-) As far as I could decipher my notes, here are what I made of some of the questions that arose. I'm sure there were other topics, and I'm sure some of the questions below could have been expanded or re- phrased to hone in on what others present were really considering. (I discovered KenH doesn't think some questions should be asked unless we've first done enough appropriate study and reflecting ourselves (the hard work). I need to give a talk next time about "'Spoon-feeding' and it's place in the Suttas." :-)) As the Cooranites haven't caught up with the last four or five days worth of postings yet, if the questions below have already been touched on, please just tell us the Post numbers. ****Some of us were not sure if vipaka is experienced only through the five sense doors. What about the arising of an unpleasant thought - it feels like it should be vipaka ... but people were sure it wasn't. ****Is sammuti-sacca (conventional truth as opposed to paramattha- sacca) a synonym for Pannatti. Some of us think 'yes'. (I'm still figuring out what pannatti is :-)) ****Regarding cetana - when does cetana 'co-ordinate' and when does it 'will'? Some of us thought it co-ordinates vipaka-citta, and both co-ordinates and wills 'something else'. (Can't read my writing ... What is the term for 'something else'?) Do kusala and akusala cittas have a collective name? Is it simply javanna citta? When cetana wills, what does it will? ****I know this is an oldie but a goodie - Can an object be inherently pleasant or inherently unpleasant - isn't it the experience/perception that arises that makes it so? Two people seeing/hearing/tasting the same object, may have different pleasant or unpleasant perceptions of it ... (A paramatta dhamma is experienced by only one person (one vithi-citta?). ) Is the 'inherent nature'question generally agreed upon among Abhidhamma scholars or is there room for differences of opinion? ****In Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on Kamma, he says '... it can be said of kamma that kamma pushes for an opportunity to mature" - what does this mean, it seems to almost personify kamma? (- this question is by one of the non-dsg members of the weekend group. We're working on him.) *****Metta - is it a cetasika or citta? Is it a type of adosa? I'm sure there were lots of questions on metta that I've missed - apart from the usual 'does one radiate metta towards self, or only towards others, or not at all as it is only an uncontrollable mind moment'. Hopefully if others feel there were other questions that I've missed (particularly that bit about the jivitindriya lifeforce(?) rupa kalapa thingy etc. etc.) maybe they will put forward their own "Evam me sutam ..." metta, Christine 20174 From: Star Kid Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:33am Subject: ~ KoM~ !!! Dear Kom, I am really glad that you like my suggestion and thankyou for sending me the letter. From"The Dhammapada" I found that there were some more sentences that impressed me much. Nowadays the people think that they were really unlucky of being jobless and they tried to kill themselves, but yesterday I saw a T.V programme that was about the girl that was burn without arms, she did everything by her foot. She never gives up, and now she even knew how to drive! So I think we should learn from their patience and the power not to give up!!!! We should not kill ourselves over such little things! Do you agree, Kom?I hope I can get your reply soon^.^! Love, Kiana. Weight Age Gender Female Male 20175 From: Star Kid Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:35am Subject: I don't underdstand Dear James, Thank you for your reply. I'm so sorry that you were sick. Okay let's go onto something else.Now what do you mean about compete against others to move to 'advanced' or more 'wise' than them or if you brag about how special you are because of your wisdom that will actually make you fail a grade? Please write back to me. I'm 9 now, but still don't understand some of these words. Please explain. Hope you get well soon! Janet 20176 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] ~ KoM~ !!! Hi Kom, --- Star Kid wrote: > From"The Dhammapada" I found that there were some > more sentences that impressed me much. > > always.> Hint: These quotes Kiana is giving are from the 'imaginative' translation of Dhp by Thomas Byrom widely available....hmmm... I've just tracked this one down and it's no 157. Next time, I'll try to show her how to find another translation and a number as well. Metta, Sarah ====== 20177 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: Questions from March weekend at Cooran Hi Christine, Here are my two cents worth... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > ****Some of us were not sure if vipaka is experienced only through > the five sense doors. What about the arising of an unpleasant > thought - it feels like it should be vipaka ... but people were sure > it wasn't. ===== The mind-door citta process has some bhavanga cittas (vipaka from last thought of last existence), followed by a mind-door adverting citta (functional) followed by seven javana cittas (to create kamma) and sometimes capped off with two registration cittas. It is the mind-door adverting citta that conditions the arising of the javana cittas, but it is purely functional, not a vipaka citta. The most important question is, "what conditions the arising of the functional mind-door adverting citta?" I believe that the answer is "previous concepts plus accumulations". Previous concepts can be triggered by almost anything, but what creates "accumulations"? Accumulations are habits created by javana cittas (yes, the same guys responsible for kammic seeds that can mature into vipaka). I like the rose in front of me. This liking of the rose created a kammic seed that may eventually (when conditions are right) develop into a vipaka citta. In addition, the liking of the rose creates an impression, a habit, an accumulation, towards the liking of roses. This impression / habit / accumulation can condition the arising of attachment to roses as a mind-door citta process. In summary, it is not vipaka that triggers mind-door citta processes, but rather accumulations (accumulations and vipaka have the same heritage; javana cittas). ===== > ****Regarding cetana - when does cetana 'co-ordinate' and when does > it 'will'? Some of us thought it co-ordinates vipaka-citta, and both > co-ordinates and wills 'something else'. (Can't read my writing ... > What is the term for 'something else'?) ===== Cetana coordinates in all cittas. Cetana "wills" only in javana cittas where "Like a boss who directs workers and also does his share of the work as well; it is 'exceedingly energetic'". ===== > ****I know this is an oldie but a goodie - Can an object be > inherently pleasant or inherently unpleasant - isn't it the > experience/perception that arises that makes it so? Two people > seeing/hearing/tasting the same object, may have different pleasant > or unpleasant perceptions of it ... (A paramatta dhamma is > experienced by only one person (one vithi-citta?). ) Is the 'inherent > nature'question generally agreed upon among Abhidhamma scholars or is > there room for differences of opinion? ===== You might be interested in my long post on Sanna. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15923.html Visible object is ALWAYS accompanied by neutral feeling. When sanna links the current visible object with a long-term memory of the same object (i.e. when I name it as "flower"), then in the next set of mind-door citta processes, sanna grabs the "feeling" (pleasant / unpleasant / neutral) associated with the long-term memory. This feeling conditions the arising of craving, the next link in dependent origination. ===== > > ****In Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on Kamma, he says '... it can be said > of kamma that kamma pushes for an opportunity to mature" - what does > this mean, it seems to almost personify kamma? (- this question is by > one of the non-dsg members of the weekend group. We're working on > him.) ===== As I mentioned above, javana cittas create kammic seeds and accumulations (habits). The accumulation (habit) can also be one of the conditions for a kammic seed to mature into vipaka. ===== Christine, I have skipped some of the questions that were too tough for me. The ones that I skipped are: Is sammuti-sacca (conventional truth as opposed to paramattha- sacca) a synonym for Pannatti? Do kusala and akusala cittas have a collective name? Is it simply javanna citta? When cetana wills, what does it will? Metta - is it a cetasika or citta? Is it a type of adosa? Hope this helps, let me know if I created additional confusion. Metta, Rob M :-) 20178 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:39am Subject: Re: I read this really good book! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Today I saw a picture of you! > You were with this really young asian girl while you > were praying...I think...well you were wearing white > clothes. I wanted to ask you what grade do you teach? > If I ever become a teacher, I would teach > kindergardens. > > I read a book called "The Visons of The Buddha" which > is about Buddhism in different parts of the world such > as China, Thailand, Japan and so on, I thought that it > was a truly great book. > > I also read another book called "The Giver" and that > was also a very good book. > > A quote from "The Visons Of The Buddha" In the chapter > about Westeners becoming interested in Buddhism: > "The leaf of this tree, entrusted to my garden > from the east, offers the experience of secret > meaning."- Goethe > > I don't really understand what that meant and I was > wondering if could you explain it to me. > > Bye! > Jan Chearavanont > > P.S: Plz write me some more funny poems or quotes! > > P.P.S: This is a funny quote that I got > "I am NOBODY and NOBODY is perfect...that > makes me perfect!" Hi Star Kid Jan! Yes, that is a picture of me taken last year at my Buddhist temple. I was wearing only white clothes because it was taken on day 9 of a 10 day meditation retreat and the Thai tradition is to wear all white while staying in a Buddhist temple. It is to symbolize purity. There is a funny story behind that picture I can tell you. On some of the days during the retreat the little girl that you see in the picture would come with her mother who cooked for the monks. While her mother was working in the kitchen, this little girl would like to follow me around and do everything I would do. When I took away empty dishes from the monks, she would take away dishes also (being big enough to carry only a spoon or a fork). The monks thought it was the cutest thing and were amazed because this little girl doesn't normally do that and is pretty shy. Well, at the end of the meal, the monks give a blessing and it is customary for everyone to kneel and put their hands together in a wai…like you see in the picture. Since that is what I did, that is what this little girl did. On this next to last day of the retreat, the abbot of the temple motioned to one of the women in the kitchen to take a picture of the two of us kneeling. The monks did their traditional chant about THREE TIMES in a row while the woman looked for the camera! I am kind of smiling in the picture because it took so long to find the camera, some of the monks are smiling while chanting (because they are doing the chant for so long), and yet this little girl didn't get up until the chanting was over! ;-) The little girl is three-years-old and is Thai. About your other question, I teach high school…but I could probably teach younger grades also. I like to teach high school because it keeps me mindful of life's suffering…hehehe..just kidding. Okay, about that quote you don't quite understand about Westerners becoming interested in Buddhism: "The leaf of this tree, entrusted to my garden from the east, offers the experience of secret meaning."- Goethe. This quote is using a metaphor, which is when you compare two things that are not the same. In this quote, Buddhism is being compared to a tree; like the symbolic `Tree of Knowledge' that comes from Judaic/Christian mythology. Goethe is saying that this tree of Buddhism has been 'entrusted' to his garden (like it is something valuable and rare that he has to protect), which is from the east (meaning India, where Buddhism originated). I am not sure if he means the tree is from the east or if his whole garden is from the east, but I am going to assume he means the tree is from the east. Goethe then explains that the leaf from this tree offers secret meaning, which means the teaching of Buddhism. Jan, it is no wonder that you don't understand this quote because it is very old- fashioned. Before Buddhism became widely known and dispersed in the west, it was considered a type of `rarity' and `secret'; but it really isn't either of those things. Buddhism is about as `plain as the nose on your face' and it isn't found in just the east, it is in everything all around the world. There is nothing secretive about Buddhism that only a few people can keep in their `secret gardens'. So, appreciate this quote for its historical significance, but I wouldn't recommend that you view Buddhism like Goethe describes it. Westerners, for the most part, don't view Buddhism like this anymore. Thank you for the book recommendations, Jan, and I will try to seek them out. The one about the Buddha in different countries sounds very interesting. Take care and keep reading! ;-) Metta, James PS. For some variety, I will give you some funny quotes: When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane. I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out. Do you have trouble making up your mind? Well, yes or no? If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something. Many people quit looking for work when they find a job. When I'm not in my right mind, my left mind gets pretty crowded. Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film. 20179 From: Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions from March weekend at Cooran Hi, Rob (and Christine) - I just wrote a long response to this post, using AOL remotely (I'm not home), and my post was lost! I'll try again, more briefly. In a message dated 3/10/2003 5:16:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Christine, > > Here are my two cents worth... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > ****Some of us were not sure if vipaka is experienced only through > > the five sense doors. What about the arising of an unpleasant > > thought - it feels like it should be vipaka ... but people were > sure > > it wasn't. > > ===== > > The mind-door citta process has some bhavanga cittas (vipaka from > last thought of last existence), followed by a mind-door adverting > citta (functional) followed by seven javana cittas (to create kamma) > and sometimes capped off with two registration cittas. > > It is the mind-door adverting citta that conditions the arising of > the javana cittas, but it is purely functional, not a vipaka citta. > The most important question is, "what conditions the arising of the > functional mind-door adverting citta?" I believe that the answer > is "previous concepts plus accumulations". Previous concepts can be > triggered by almost anything, but what creates "accumulations"? > Accumulations are habits created by javana cittas (yes, the same > guys responsible for kammic seeds that can mature into vipaka). > > I like the rose in front of me. This liking of the rose created a > kammic seed that may eventually (when conditions are right) develop > into a vipaka citta. In addition, the liking of the rose creates an > impression, a habit, an accumulation, towards the liking of roses. > This impression / habit / accumulation can condition the arising of > attachment to roses as a mind-door citta process. > > In summary, it is not vipaka that triggers mind-door citta > processes, but rather accumulations (accumulations and vipaka have > the same heritage; javana cittas). ------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear on this. When we think about a rose, think about watering it, or plan the growing of roses, these complex trains of mind-door processes involve many, many elementary mind objects and their cognition. What is the category of these? Why are they any the less kamma vipaka than the experience of hardness arising as I am curently typing the keyboard keys? --------------------------- > > ===== > > > ****Regarding cetana - when does cetana 'co-ordinate' and when > does > > it 'will'? Some of us thought it co-ordinates vipaka-citta, and > both > > co-ordinates and wills 'something else'. (Can't read my > writing ... > > What is the term for 'something else'?) > > ===== > > Cetana coordinates in all cittas. Cetana "wills" only in javana > cittas where "Like a boss who directs workers and also does his > share of the work as well; it is 'exceedingly energetic'". > > ===== > > > ****I know this is an oldie but a goodie - Can an object be > > inherently pleasant or inherently unpleasant - isn't it the > > experience/perception that arises that makes it so? Two people > > seeing/hearing/tasting the same object, may have different > pleasant > > or unpleasant perceptions of it ... (A paramatta dhamma is > > experienced by only one person (one vithi-citta?). ) Is > the 'inherent > > nature'question generally agreed upon among Abhidhamma scholars or > is > > there room for differences of opinion? > > ===== > > You might be interested in my long post on Sanna. > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15923.html > > Visible object is ALWAYS accompanied by neutral feeling. When sanna > links the current visible object with a long-term memory of the same > object (i.e. when I name it as "flower"), then in the next set of > mind-door citta processes, sanna grabs the "feeling" (pleasant / > unpleasant / neutral) associated with the long-term memory. This > feeling conditions the arising of craving, the next link in > dependent origination. ------------------------------ Howard: I think that what you write here is quite correct but it could be misinterpreted. There is a sutta which says something to the effect "... what one feels, one perceives ..." and then thinks about, mentally proliferates and concocts etc. One might think that parts of what you say here imply the opposite (that what one perceives, one feels). I understand you to be saying something along the following lines: An image is condition for neutral feeling; that feeling conditions the carving out of a part of the image and identifying of it (as a 'flower'), from this there arises contact through the mind-door with the thought of 'flower', and that leads (typically, according to inclination) to pleasant feeling. So, throughout, phassa conditions vedana, and vedana, in turn, conditions sa~n~na. Am I correct? ------------------------------- > > ===== > > > > > ****In Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on Kamma, he says '... it can be > said > > of kamma that kamma pushes for an opportunity to mature" - what > does > > this mean, it seems to almost personify kamma? (- this question is > by > > one of the non-dsg members of the weekend group. We're working on > > him.) > > ===== > > As I mentioned above, javana cittas create kammic seeds and > accumulations (habits). The accumulation (habit) can also be one of > the conditions for a kammic seed to mature into vipaka. > > ===== > > Christine, I have skipped some of the questions that were too tough > for me. The ones that I skipped are: > > Is sammuti-sacca (conventional truth as opposed to paramattha- > sacca) a synonym for Pannatti? > > Do kusala and akusala cittas have a collective name? Is it simply > javanna citta? > > When cetana wills, what does it will? > > Metta - is it a cetasika or citta? Is it a type of adosa? > > > > Hope this helps, let me know if I created additional > confusion. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ========================= With metta, Howard 20180 From: bodhi342 Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa in the teachings Jon, I appreciate your thoughtful response, which actually addresses parts of the paradox I was trying to get at, by using the issue of concepts. We probably can manage various learning methods simultaneously, [alright, sequentially ;-) ]. IMO the main thing is avoiding premature closure on 'other' methods and constructs, e.g. concepts, until understanding the present dhammas becomes natural and continous. Again IMO there is no need to reject concepts while trying to make some point, and then blithely utilizing them, sometimes in the next sentence! This apparently schizophrenic approach can be unsettling to u.w. such as me. There have been some interesting observations on science and Buddha's teachings. The only way to explore this exciting area (either of convergence or divergence) is to use concepts. Sound, its effect on the ear and mind-doors etc. can be fruitfully explored using both constructs. I believe it cannot be done by being fanatically averse to 'lowly' concepts. I hope this is not just my clinging to concepts, but rather an appreciation for their limited value. I (being an u.w. interested in the rising and falling of theories in the span of recent history) cannot intelligently comment on 'correct answers', and suspect that in many cases, correctness is just another delusion. Thanks for your interest and insights. dharam --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dharam > > --- bodhi342 wrote: > "If a tree falls in the > woods with none to hear, is there a sound?" > > > > Hi Rob M, > > > > What is a tree, what is falling, what are woods, what is none? > > Just > > more mental proliferation taking concepts to be real? Can we even > > get to address your philosophical question? > > > > uninstructed worldling, > > dharam > > I agree with the thrust of your post here, that such questions per se > have little or no relevance to the development of an understanding of > the presently arising dhammas. > > On the other hand, I would not see the question as being necessarily > a purely philosophical one, in that sound like every other dhamma is > said to arise because of conditions and those conditions can be found > enumerated and explained in different parts of the teachings. It > doesn't hurt to look into some of these lesser studied areas, since > they are all there for a reason. > > Also, from another angle, while knowing the answer no doubt won't get > one any closer to enlightenment, it's conceivable that holding a > positive view that is contrary to the 'correct answer' could be an > obstacle to the development of understanding (not that I'm suggesting > that is likely to be the case among any memebers here ;-)). > > Thanks for your observations. > > (Fellow u.w.) Jon 20181 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 9:59am Subject: Perfections, Ch 8, Truthfulness, no 3. Perfections, Ch 8, Truthfulness, no 3. We read in the ³Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning² (Paramatthajotikå), Commentary to the Minor Collection (Khuddakapåìha), of the Khuddakanikåya, in the Commentary to the ³Good Omen Discourse²(Mangala Sutta) about the first Council. We read that the venerable Mahå-Kassapa, the venerable Upåli, the venerable Ånanda and the other arahats, fivehundred bhikkhus in all, met for the first rehearsal of the Dhamma Vinaya, near the door of the Sattapaùùi Cave, on the slopes of the Vebhåra Rock, in Råjagaha. We read that when certain deities saw the venerable Ånanda sitting in the seat for (anouncing) the True Dhamma, surrounded by the group of those who had attained mastery (in it), they had the following thought: ³This venerable one, the Videhan Seer, is the Blessed One¹s natural heir as a shoot of the Sakyan clan, and he was five times signalized in the Foremost-in-this (Discourse) and possesses the Four Wonderful and Marvellous Ideas that make him dear and precious to the four kinds of assembly 2 ; so surely, after inheriting the kingdom of the Blessed One¹s True Dhamma, he has become an Enlightened One.² Knowing with his mind the thoughts in those deities¹ minds, he did not connive at such misattribution to him of non-existent special qualities. Consequently, in order to show his own discipleship, he said: ŒEvaÿ me suttaÿ. Ekaÿ samayaÿ bhagavå Såvatthiyaÿ viharati Jetavane Anåthapindikassa åråme...¹ which means: Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Såvatthí in Jeta¹s Wood, Anåthapindika¹s Park... These words were spoken by the venerable Ånanda, more than twothousand and fivehundred years ago. If we today just hear the words, ³Thus have I heard², we are impressed by the thoughts of the venerable Ånanda who on the occasion of the first rehearsal made it clear that he was only a disciple. That is why he said, ³Thus have I heard². He did not speak his own words, because he was not the Exalted One. He was only a disciple and had heard these words from the Exalted One. When Buddhists hear the words, ³Thus have I heard², even after more than twothousand and fivehundred years have passed, enthusiasm and joy can arise because they have an opportunity to hear these words again. Thus, they can consider the Buddha¹s teachings when he was dwelling in the Jeta Grove or at other places. We read further on: Meanwhile the five hundred Arahants and many thousand deities applauded the venerable Ånanda, saying ³Good (sådhu), good², while there was a great earth-tremor with a rain of various kinds of flowers falling from the sky and many other manifested marvels, and in many deities a sense of urgency arose (with the thought) ³What we heard in the Blessed One¹s presence is now reproduced in his absence too!² Footnote: 2. The four kinds of assembly are monks, nuns, men and women layfollowers. They rejoice when seeing Ånanda, rejoice when hearing him preach, and they are ill at ease when he is silent (Dialogues of the Buddha, no. XVI, 145. 20182 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:53am Subject: Seclusion Hi all, I would be interested to have a conversation on seclusion with anyone who is interested. To start the conversation, I will put forth the questions: What does it mean by seclusion? What are the benefits of seclusion? Regards, Victor 20183 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions from March weekend at Cooran Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not clear on this. When we think about a rose, think about watering it, or plan the growing of roses, these complex trains of mind-door processes involve many, many elementary mind objects and their cognition. What is the category of these? Why are they any the less kamma vipaka than the experience of hardness arising as I am curently typing the keyboard keys? > --------------------------- As part of a sense-door citta process we have: - Sense-door adverting: functional - Sense-door consciousness: vipaka - Receiving consciousness: vipaka - Investigating consciousness: vipaka - Determining consciousness: functional - Javana cittas: akusala or kusala The vipaka cittas (sense-door consciousness + receiving + investigating) are "what happens to us", they are the accepting of sensory input. It is important to note that it is not the vipaka cittas which condition the javana cittas. The javana cittas are conditioned by the determining citta (a functional citta) which it tied to our accumulations (our habits). The mind-door citta process is simpler; in part: - Mind-door adverting: functional (same as determining citta) - Javana cittas: akusala or kusala In both cases (sense-door and mind-door), we can say that our javana cittas arise because of our habits. In the case of the sense-door citta process, our habits are triggered by an external object. In the case of the mind-door citta process, our habits are triggered by an internal object (a concept). Though sense-door citta process involves vipaka citta (to "accept sensory input"), while the mind- door citta process does not, they are fundamentally similar; habits conditon the arising of javana cittas. These habits are the results of javana cittas. Here is a paragraph summarized from Bikhu Bodhi's "Questions on Kamma": http://www.buddhistinformation.com/questions_on_kamma.htm When a willed action is performed it leaves a track in the mind, an imprint which can mark the beginning of a new mental tendency. It has a tendency to repeat itself and reproduce itself. As these actions multiply, they form our character. Our personality is a sum of all our willed actions, a cross-section of all our accumulated kamma. By yielding first in simple ways to the unwholesome impulses of the mind, we slowly build up a greedy character, an aggressive character or a deluded character. By resisting these unwholesome desires, we replace them with their opposites, the wholesome qualities. We develop a generous character, a loving and a compassionate personality, or we can become wise and enlightened beings. As we change our habits gradually, we change our character, and as we change our character we change our total being. That is why the Buddha emphasizes the need to be mindful of every action, of every choice. Every choice has a tremendous potential for the future. > ------------------------------ > Howard: > I think that what you write here is quite correct but it could be misinterpreted. There is a sutta which says something to the effect "... what one feels, one perceives ..." and then thinks about, mentally proliferates and concocts etc. One might think that parts of what you say here imply the opposite (that what one perceives, one feels). I understand you to be saying something along the following lines: An image is condition for neutral feeling; that feeling conditions the carving out of a part of the image and identifying of it (as a 'flower'), from this there arises contact through the mind-door with the thought of 'flower', and that leads (typically, according to inclination) to pleasant feeling. So, throughout, phassa conditions vedana, and vedana, in turn, conditions sa~n~na. Am I correct? ===== I love it when you quote Suttas! You are referring to the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18). Our views on this subject are almost the same. My understanding is included in my message 15923, in which I talk about sanna and analyze that part of the the Honeyball Sutta which you quoted. There seem to be two camps: - Eye-door consciousness accepts a dot of colour which is later constructed into a mental object - Eye-door conscuousness accepts a "snapshot" image which is later carved out into a mental object I happen to be a "dot" person, while you are a "snapshot" person; it is not a big deal because we end up at the same place. What you have called "contact through the mind-door with the thought of 'flower'", I have described as "naming". Th key issue of "inheriting" the feeling courtesy of our memory and associating it with the current concept is the same; and this is what drives us to craving, the next link of the chain of dependent origination. Metta, Rob M :-) 20184 From: azita gill Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wrong view/Ditthi vs. Conceit/Mana (was, Dukkha as Medicine?) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Azita > > You wrote in a post (some time ago now): [SNIP] > This is correct, I believe. According to Nina's > 'Cetasikas' Ch 16, > both ditthi and mana arise with citta rooted in > lobha, but mana > arises with the lobha-mula citta that is not > accompanied by mana. > > > But in my observation, it would seem that they > > somehow are very closely connected. for example, > when > > we are comparing ourselves to the others, we have > this > > view of the others as being something to be > compared > > with. Surely we are having a 'view' at that > moment. > > I have just the same kind of idea, they seem to be > closely connected. > In fact of course, from all the 'objective' > evidence, they are not, > so it's interesting to consider why it should appear > this way. (By > 'objective evidence' here I refer to (a) the > descriptions of each > given in the texts, and (b) the fact that while > ditthi is eradicated > upon the attainment of the first stage of the path, > mana is not > eradicated until the final stage, so there is plenty > of opportunity > for mana to arise even when there is no longer any > trace of ditthi > remaining.) > > I don't know if this helps. It was useful for me, > anyway ;-)) > > Jon > Dear Jon, thanx, I see again how necessary it is to know the Abhidhamma, to know that these 2 cannot arise together. I have actually found it very helpful to know that at the stage of sotapanna, ditthi is eradicated and mana can still arise when conditions are right. > From 'Cetasikas' Chs 16, 17 > > A. Ditthi > The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter I, 248) gives > the following > definition of wrong view, ditthi: > … It has unwise conviction as characteristic; > perversion as function; > wrong conviction as manifestation; the desire not to > see the ariyans > as proximate cause. It should be regarded as the > highest fault. ... > > The Dhammasangaùi (§38) calls ditthi a “wrong road” > and the > Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter II, 253) explains: > ... From being not the right path, it is a “wrong > path”...........snip.... > > B. Conceit > Conceit, måna, is another akusala cetasika. There is > conceit or pride > when we consider ourselves important. Because of > conceit we may > compare ourselves with others. There can be conceit > when we think > ourselves better, equal or less than someone else. > We may believe > that there can be conceit only when we think > ourselves better than > someone else, but this is not so. There can be a > kind of upholding of > ourselves, of making ourselves important, while we > compare ourselves > with someone else, no matter in what way, and that > is conceit. > > We read in the Dhammasangaùi (§1116): > What is the Fetter of conceit? > Conceit at the thought “I am the better man”; > conceit at the thought > “I am as good (as they)”; conceit at the thought “I > am lowly”- all > such sort of conceit, overweening conceitedness, > loftiness, > haughtiness, flaunting a flag, assumption, desire of > the heart for > self-advertisement— this is called conceit. > > The three ways of comparing oneself with others may > occur in someone > who is actually superior, in someone who is actually > equal and in > someone who is actually inferior. Under this aspect > there are nine > kinds of conceit. ... > Azita: I have a Q. how do you get nine out of this? Is it something like accompanied by good feeling/bad feeling/prompted/unpromted type of citta?? BTW, I have just a this moment, read in 'A Manual of Abhidhamma' by Narada '.......where there is Ditthi there is no Mana. Commentaries compare them to two fearless lions that cannot live in one den' and it says that conceit is found in the four types of citta dissociated with wrong view. So nine?? I'm a little confused. > The Atthasåliní (II, Part IX, Chapter III, 256) > gives the following > definition of conceit: > ... Herein conceit is fancying (deeming, vain > imagining). It has > haughtiness as characteristic, self-praise as > function, desire to > (advertise self like) a banner as manifestation, > greed dissociated > from opinionativeness as proximate cause, and should > be regarded as > (a form of) lunacy. > > hope you are well, Jon, and are you still in Oz? Azita > > _______________________________________________________________________ > === message truncated === 20185 From: Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 54, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 Hi Sarah, I couldn't follow the tika either, so I ignored it. The commentary makes sense without it anyway. The gist of it seems to be a bunch of guys who want release (self improvement) band together and vow to not take a step if a defilement arises in their mind and they fail to restrain it. So these guys are walking down the road single file and one of them has a bad thought he can't restrain. So he stops and everyone behind him stops also. If he is lucky, this guy is so ashamed because his friends see he has an unrestrained bad thought, that he has a path moment and becomes a sotapanna on the spot. If not, he somehow restrains the thought and takes up the subject of meditation and everyone starts walking again. I think an unrestrained bad thought (defilement) is, in this case, any wandering of attention from the meditation subject. So the idea is to correct that immediately as they are walking down the road, but if they space out for several minutes they have to stop. That was the discipline they made up for themselves. Larry 20186 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions from March weekend at Cooran Hi Christine, Sounds like you all had a very enjoyable and dhamma-packed weekend. the presentations sound interesting and I greatly look forward to hearing more from the others as well. i note that Smokey Joe doesn’t even get a mention this time and silver-crested cockatoos are our companions here as well, as you know;-) Fortunately, no yearning cows in the centre of Hong Kong to distract me from giving brief comment to your qus. As I’m a bit rushed, I won’t add any references , but you’re most welcome to come back and question/challenge anything further. I’ll be glad of any corrections. --- christine_forsyth wrote: > ****Some of us were not sure if vipaka is experienced only through > the five sense doors. What about the arising of an unpleasant > thought - it feels like it should be vipaka ... but people were sure > it wasn't. ======= Tadarammana (registering consciousness) is vipaka and arises in sense door or mind door processes. No tot he second qu - unpleasant thought (i.e thinking accompanied by unpleasant feeling of concepts) is never vipaka. “Counter-intuitive” is common to paraphrase Mike;-) ======== > ****Is sammuti-sacca (conventional truth as opposed to paramattha- > sacca) a synonym for Pannatti. Some of us think 'yes'. (I'm still > figuring out what pannatti is :-)) ======== No, but sammuti-sacca consists of pannatti. Many pannatti (e.g RobK’s purple flying elephants), are not any kind of sacca, conventional or ultimate. ======== > ****Regarding cetana - when does cetana 'co-ordinate' and when does > it 'will'? Some of us thought it co-ordinates vipaka-citta, and both > co-ordinates and wills 'something else'. (Can't read my writing ... > What is the term for 'something else'?) Do kusala and akusala cittas > have a collective name? Is it simply javanna citta? When cetana > wills, what does it will? ======== Cetana always has the function of co-ordinating by way of accompanying all types of citta (kusala, akusala, vipaka, kiriya) as conascent kamma condition (sahajata kamma-paccaya). It has the function of ‘willing’ or producing results (i.e vipaka cittas or particular rupas in the body, e.g sense bases, sex, heart-base and other kamaaja rupas) only in the javana process, accumulating and supporting, preventing or directly producing results. This is as asynchronous kamma paccaya (naa.nakkhani.ka kamma-paccaya) ========= > ****I know this is an oldie but a goodie - Can an object be > inherently pleasant or inherently unpleasant - isn't it the > experience/perception that arises that makes it so? Two people > seeing/hearing/tasting the same object, may have different pleasant > or unpleasant perceptions of it ... (A paramatta dhamma is > experienced by only one person (one vithi-citta?). ) Is the 'inherent > nature'question generally agreed upon among Abhidhamma scholars or is > there room for differences of opinion? ========= The objects experienced through the 5 senses are inherently pleasant or unpleasant. The experiencing, eg, the seeing or hearing just experiences. Succeeding cittas in the sense door javana process or the mind door process are kusala or akusala (except arahants) and depend on many factors including the object experienced and accumulations. There may be attachment to an unpleasant object or aversion to a pleasant one....just depends. Happy to be prompted to write more with refs.....As I've read (and understood) in the Abh text and commentaries, this is agreed. Amongst contemporary scholars, there's plenty of room for 'differences of opinion';-) A paramattha dhamma or a pannatti (concept) are experienced by one citta at a time - one vithi citta (one citta in a process) as you say. ============ > ****In Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on Kamma, he says '... it can be said > of kamma that kamma pushes for an opportunity to mature" - what does > this mean, it seems to almost personify kamma? (- this question is by > one of the non-dsg members of the weekend group. We're working on > him.) ============= pass...just a turn of phrase..... like a seed ready to bring a result??? I expect Rob M has given an answer for this. =============== > *****Metta - is it a cetasika or citta? Is it a type of adosa? I'm > sure there were lots of questions on metta that I've missed - apart > from the usual 'does one radiate metta towards self, or only > towards others, or not at all as it is only an uncontrollable mind > moment'. ============= Metta is included under the cetasika adosa(non-hatred), just as the brahma vihara, upekkha (equanimity) is included under tatramajjhataa (impartiality). The brahma viharas (illimitables or heavenly abodes) have another being(s) as object. Adosa and upekkha, non-hatred and equanimity are present in all sobhana (beautiful) cittas, regardless of the object. Remember, no self to radiate anything;-) Also, all cittas and accompanying cetasikas are conditioned (uncontrollable). This doesn’t mean wholesome states cannot be developed or cannot have people as object. =============== > Hopefully if others feel there were other questions that I've missed > (particularly that bit about the jivitindriya lifeforce(?) rupa > kalapa > thingy etc. etc.) maybe they will put forward their own "Evam me > sutam ..." =============== Very good questions. I’ll look f/w to hearing any conclusions that were reached that were different. Also looking f/w to hearing more on these other points from Ken H, Andrew and Steve. I’ve deliberately ignored Rob M’s and Howard’s posts to keep this quick and simple. I look f/w to reading them after class today;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 20187 From: rahula_80 Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:17am Subject: Advise Needed Hi, It's about a friend of mine. She is not a Buddhist. (I mean she is not religious.) She had a boyfriend but he died. Now she have another boyfriend, but she still can't let go of her previous boyfriend. Is there anything that can be done to help her? Thanks, Rahula 20188 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:49am Subject: Questions for YOU! Hi James, Sorry that I didn't send you a letter for a long time, it's because I had a holiday to malaysia to visit my family and relatives. I kind of got confused, while reading the letter half way, but I think I kind of understand the letter ( no. 18856). I like the part when you said 'It was at this time that I felt that true wisdom wasn't cold and logical, but optimistic and loving.' I think I'm half Christian because I don't go to church. Do Buddhists goes to any places during the week like the Christian does? Do Buddhists have any prayers like the Christian does? Do Buddhists have to pray before eating? Take care and Happy New Year! Love Sandy 20189 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:51am Subject: Re: Kom Dear Kom, I have read through your long letter. Your answers are meaningful and help me a lot. Today (Saturday), I went to school to do my artwork. Luckily, yesterday when I told my mother about this, we didn't have any quarrel. I think it is because she knows I really need to do the work in school. Sometimes when I finish reading some ghost stories or films about ghosts, I feel scared and always think the ghosts are harmful to me. So what can I do to solve these kinds of problmes? Lastly, what do you think of the coming war between America and Iraq from a Buddhist point of view? Some people say that this war would lead to the end of the world. Is it true? From Kimmy 20190 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:53am Subject: Kiana Dear Kiana, I have read through the book "Ten lives of the Buddha" which you introduced to me before. The pictures inside are really nice, they're different from those drawn nowadays. The story I like the most is " Mahajanaka The Lost Prince". It stated out clearly about the human nature. In our daily lives, we always feel jealous towards somebody. However, after reading this story, I think jealousy is just something silly and nonsence. From Kimmy 20191 From: robmoult Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 5:11am Subject: Re: Advise Needed Hi Rahula, Tough one. My first reaction is to emphasize the importance of living in the present moment. Learn from the past, have a direction for the future, but the present moment is the only true reality. If you are walking down the road and you are always looking into the far distance (the future), you can easily trip and fall. If you are walking down the road, but have your head turned so that you are looking behind you (the past), you can easily bump into something or wander off the road into the ditch. The way to arrive at your destination safely is to have most of your attention on where you currenly are and a small amount of your attention on your destination. There ain't much benefit to be had by looking backwards. This is my first reaction and first reactions are often wrong. Death of a close companion can impact one very deeply and superficial advice may not have much impact. Hope it helps. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > It's about a friend of mine. She is not a Buddhist. (I mean she is > not religious.) > > She had a boyfriend but he died. Now she have another boyfriend, but > she still can't let go of her previous boyfriend. > > Is there anything that can be done to help her? > > Thanks, Rahula 20192 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 7:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] ~ KoM~ !!! Hi Kiana! > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > > From"The Dhammapada" I found that there were some > more sentences that impressed me much. > > always.> > > Nowadays the people think that they were really > unlucky of being jobless and they tried to kill > themselves, but yesterday I saw a T.V programme that > was about the girl that was burn without arms, she did > everything by her foot. She never gives up, and now > she even knew how to drive! So I think we should learn > from their patience and the power not to give up!!!! > We should not kill ourselves over such little things! > > Do you agree, Kom?I hope I can get your reply > soon^.^! > Thanks for sharing with me this very nice reminder. Here's another translation of the above pada from Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/12.html If you hold yourself dear then guard, guard yourself well. The wise person would stay awake nursing himself in any of the three watches of the night, the three stages of life. If we know that we hold ourselves dear, then we should keep it the best we can. How? We can keep ourselves well by being mindful, by not being forgetful to give, to avoid doing bad deeds or saying bad speeches, and to develop the knowledge and mind as best as we can. If we do these well, regardless of how old we are, then we are said to be keeping or guarding ourselves well. Since good causes always lead to good results - this is a natural law, then we can keep ourselves well by having good causes. I think human life is quite precious, especially during the time when we can truly learn who we really are. It is hard to be born as a human being, for it must be a good cause that gives result in being born as a human. It is even harder to have friends who can point us the good way, that would lead us to the end of suffering. So, we should definitely keep hope, for death is not going to solve our problems. Do you know what happen after death? If you are not so sure, given that death can be so near, then we should always be as good as we can. Thanks for making my name look so happy, ;-) ~KoM~ 20193 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 7:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] ~ KoM~ !!! Thanks, Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > I've just tracked this one down and it's no 157. That was very helpful. kom 20194 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and science Dear TG, Rob M and all, op 09-03-2003 19:42 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: TG:> The heart base is one, the object of sight, sound > not "meeting" the eye, ear is another. (We can only experience contacts.) > Light does indeed meet the eye, sound does indeed meet the ear. I know nothing about science. I have only one point that may be of interest: sound meeting the ear: it is far more complex in the teaching of the abh: sound does not arise alone, it is accompanied by the four great elements and by colour, flavour, smell and nutritive essence, eight rupas. Sound can hurt your ear: what is that? Not the sound itself, this can only be heard, it cannot cause painful feeling. But the accompanying earth element is so forceful. Thus, when we consider what you say about meeting, we have to be careful what we mean by meeting, meeting in what sense? The same with colour. We have to be careful using the term light, but it is OK if you mean: only that what can be seen. In science light means something else again. There could be confusion because of the terms used. Also with regard to sound waves, dots, retina, etc. there may be confusion: what is the science, what is the Abhidhamma. They have different aims. If we mix them we shall become confused as to ultimate realities: the dhammas which each have their own unalterable characteristic that can be directly known without having to name it. It is very good you write about these points, they are useful to discuss. Do bring up other points you find contradictory. Feel free to speak out. Otherwise they may hinder the understanding of the development of satipatthana. As to heartbase: I do not mind how it is called, it is just the physical base of many cittas. The decad of heartbase, or if you like the base decad arises at the first moment of life, it is produced by kamma. It is extremely tiny, but even now, the heartbase is an infinitesimally small rupa. It falls away immediately. The Commentators had no intention to teach medical science, they wanted to point out that cittas in our plane of life do not float in the air, that they need a physical base of arising. When you read about heart, blood near the heart: just terms to make clear the reality of that rupa. Why heart? Because the Indian philosophy sees the heart as central, not the brain as we Westerners do. Now you can see the difference between pannatti: the term and the idea the term stands for, and the absolute reality of rupa that has its own unalterable characteristic. A term can also represent an absolute reality. You write: TG Where you say:< in terms of elements, mental factors and types of consciousness, and how they interact; Abhidhamma is a brilliant analysis. > What else is this but ultimate realities, that is, different from conventional terms? It may be the word ultimate realities you do not like. You can use another term, like: paramattha dhammas, dhammas, realities, actualities, or just nama and rupa. You say: < I don't know how accurate it is, but I consider it a useful model in contemplating conditionality> That is it, very important. You have to verify it yourself. Consider conditions right now. Is there a slight annoyance? This you also had in the past. It is conditioned by past moments. Are you seeing now? This is conditioned: visible object impinges on the eyesense so that seeing arises. Is there thinking of what you see? That is conditioned by seeing. You can verify that there isn't any moment of your life arising without conditions. That is Abhidhamma. The more you consider your life now, the clearer it will become what actually the Abhidhamma is. You write: "Abhidhamma a brilliant analysis": it is more than that, but again, you have to discover this yourself. You see it intellectually, you look at the Abhidhamma more from outside. Abhidhamma is closely connected with satipatthana, helping you to know yourself, to know your life at this moment. Take the meditation on asubha, the Foulness of the Body: spleen, liver, blood, etc. It looks like a lesson in anatomy, a lot of medical terms. What is the aim: know that the body consists of only rupas that arise and fall away immediately. Is there beauty in what falls away immediately? Only rupas: this is Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma points to the purpose of the teachings, less delusion, detachment. We read in the Commentary to the Khuddakapatha, the Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning, I, The Three Refuges: "...the Enlightened One is like a clever physician because he is able to cure the sickness consisting in defilement by underlining tendencies; the True Idea (Dhamma) is like a rightly applied medicine; and the Community (Sangha) , whose underlying tenedencies to the sickness of defilement are quite cured, is like people whose sickness is quite cured by the application of the medicine." Decads ago I received a statue of Buddha the Healer from someone who had read my Buddhism in Daily Life (book based on conversations with A. Sujin). By means of this book he learnt about the Dhamma. In the beginning of this book I deal with citta. He said that had he not read this book he would not have been alive now. That is why he gave me this statue of Buddha the Healer. May we all see the Abhidhamma as the right medicine to cure our delusion and other defilements, Nina. 20195 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:08am Subject: Dhamma Issues 4, lakkhana rupas, no. 1. Dhamma Issues 4, lakkhana rupas, no. 1. Chapter 4. Lakkhana Rúpas, Characteristics inherent in all Rúpas Introduction [1] . There are four characteristics that are inherent in all rúpas. These characteristics have been classified as different rúpas, the lakkhaùa rúpas (lakkhaùa means characteristic), which are the following: arising or origination (upacaya 2) continuity or development (santati) decay or ageing (jaratå) falling away or impermanence (aniccatå) These four lakkhana rúpas are rúpas without their own distinct nature, asabhåva rúpas 3 , but they are themselves characteristics inherent in all rúpas. These four characteristics are different: the arising of rúpa, its development, its decay and its falling away. Origination, upacaya rúpa, and continuity, santati rúpa, are characteristics indicating the moments rúpa has arisen but not yet fallen away, whereas decay, jaratå rúpa, indicates the moment close to its falling away and impermanence, aniccatå rúpa, the moment of its falling away. The duration of rúpa when compared with the duration of citta is seventeen moments of citta. Rúpa does not fall away as quickly as citta. Citta can be subdivided into three infinitesimal moments, the moment of its arising, uppåda khana, the moment of its presence, titthi khana, and the moment of its falling away, bhanga khana. When we take this subdivision into account, rúpa lasts as long as three times seventeen, that is, fiftyone moments of citta. When we consider that rúpa lasts as long as fiftyone moments of citta, it will be clearer that all four characteristics manifest themselves during the time one group of rúpas lasts. This has been explained in this Issue. It reminds us how short-lived rupa is. As we shall see, the ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch II, 327) does not deal with the four characteristics of rúpa which are manifest during the period a group of rúpas lasts, namely fiftyone moments of citta. It states that integration and continuity are synonyms for the production of matter, but here this commentary speaks in a general, conventional sense. There is the arising of groups of rúpas at the first moment of life, initial arising, ³integration² or ³accumulation², and there is the subsequent arising of groups of rúpas, ³continuity². The text states: ³... integration of matter has the characteristic of accumulation, the function of making material things arise at the beginning, leading them, or the fullness of matter as manifestation, integrated matter as proximate cause. Continuity has the characteristic of continuous occurrence, the function of linking or binding without a break, unbroken series as manifestation, matter bound up without a break as proximate cause.² As we see, the function of integration (upacaya) is production of rúpas at the beginning of life, whereas the function of continuity (santati) is linking without a break. The seemingly permanence of the body is merely due to the continuous production of new rúpas replacing the ones that have fallen away. Footnotes: 1. I have added this introduction. 2. åcaya is accumulation, and upacaya is initial arising. The prefix upa indicates here: initial. Upacaya is also translated as integration. It is the arising of rúpa. 20196 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 60, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 Dear Larry, op 10-03-2003 02:06 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > This section, "Clear comprehension in going forwards and backwards", > might be a good one to contemplate on a long journey. It says in part (I > think) what we perceive as movement is really the successive arising > and ceasing of different dhammas, and also of course, there is no person > who goes. N: I liked this part and also this one: [T] As the break-up of sesamum seeds that are roasted takes place almost at once with the sound of crackling, the destruction of conditioned phenomena takes place almost at once with phenomena's arising. For, similar to the crackling sound, the sign of the breaking up of the sesamum seeds, is arising the sign (indicatory) of the (eventual) breaking up of conditioned phenomena, owing to the destruction (inevitably and) assuredly of phenomena that have arisen. [T] Who is the one that goes forward? Just no one. [ko eko abhikkamati nabhikkamati yeva]. 20197 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint Dear Larry op 09-03-2003 18:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Is the mental image of Howard's tree a nimita (sign)? Is a mental image > considered to be a concept? N: Yes, it is not a nama or rupa with its own unalterable characteristic that can be directly experienced such as hardness. We do not have to name hardness, it can be experienced through the bodysense, no matter what name we use.. L:The mental image for me is generic and > somewhat ideal, for Howard it may be specific and "flawed". Would the > generic and ideal image be a counterpart sign and the specific and > flawed image be a learning sign? N: No, I do not see it in this way. Counterpart sign and learning sign are referred to in connection with samatha only. Take the kasina: first there is the learning sign when one begins to develop calm, later on one does not have to look, there is already the counterpart sign. However, I understand that you want to compare different impressions of Howard's famous tree. Nina 20198 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] the Way, our own experience. Dear Larry, op 09-03-2003 19:56 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I've been slowly reading the concentration section in > Visuddhimagga and it's clarifying little by little but I think I need to > bring in Vimuttimagga and Patisambhidamagga. I haven't been able to find > anyone who is willing to describe their own experience (except Howard). > Where's all the arahants??? N: No arahats in this world anymore. My own experience? Life goes on as usual, as smallchap said. If there are special experiences now, those can be conditioned by former experiences. They are only conditioned namas and one should take them as such. It is important to find out whether there is clinging to those experiences.You study now Visuddhimagga on Concentration. As Suan pointed out it is important to be very cautious, he reminded us that only very few people can realize access concentration and attainment concentration (Visuddhimagga). I realize more that we are slow, slow, slow, as Swee Boon said. There is some more understanding what awareness is and what it is not, and how little we know. I understand more the connection between Abhidhamma and satipatthana, that whatever we study of the Tipitaka, even each sutta, whatever we consider and learn, it is the present reality. I like your direct questions, as always, Nina. 20199 From: Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 11:36am Subject: On the Nonduality of Subject and Object Hi, all - The knowing of an object and the known object, itself, are mutually dependent, and, in that interdependence there is a form of nonduality implying the corelessness of each. On the other hand, it is an error, I think, to misinterpret this nonduality, this interdependence, as a unity or identity. As with all conditionality, what is implied is at the middle in some sense which avoids the extremes. But I would like to point out something that occurred to me while meditating earlier today - a matter of practicality. It occurred to me that there lies a danger at early stages of practice, and even further on, to put too much emphasis on the nonduality of subject and object (in the sense of the interdependence of the two). My reason is that at early and middle stages of practice the sense of self is stil extremely strong. When, particularly during meditation, we have this nonduality in the back of our minds, it may strengthen the tendency to identify subject with object, to identify the breath, say, or pleasant sensations with an alleged knowing self, and instead of awakening to the impersonality of these objects and the knowing of them, we merely grasp onto a kind of "unified self" of our making. Perhaps this is why one of the early stages in the cultivation of insight is, in fact, not an insight into nonduality of subject and object, but pretty much the opposite - the distinguishing of the knowing from the known, so that each can get to be seen as impersonal. Just some thoughts, folks. Comments anyone? With metta, Howard