20800 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 30, 2003 10:01pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions again....(kom) Hi Kom & All, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: Janice: > > Recently, there has been a > > serious case of the epidemic, Pneumonia and it is > > quite frightening. > K: > Yes, I have heard about that too, and I agree that it is > quite frightening. It is only frightening when we think > about it, though. Do you see that if you don't think about > the disease (and about the people who are affected by it), > we might not be frightened then. ***** Thanks for your good reminders as always. It’s true that we are all very alarmed here in Hong Kong and our daily lives are being seriously affected. For the children, all schools, colleges and educational institutions have been closed down to try and halt the virus (as contagious as the common cold it seems, but very deadly), I’ve had to close down all my classes, all restaurant and hotel staff now wear masks, as do most people in the streets. Most concerts and shows are cancelled (yes, the Stones cancelled on Saturday and we were very relieved to have the decision made for us;-)) and so on. It’s a real disaster for most businesses. One person has been affected in Jon’s Government office building so far, so staff are clamouring for the building to be closed like so many others, but no luck so far;-( A friend asked me to repeat something I once mentioned about cancer on list and a reminder K.Sujin had given. I forget the words I used, but I think it’s so helpful to understand that life and the world and the epidemic or War or cancer or any other supposed sources of anxiety are just in the dhammas at the present moment. As you (Kom) say, if there is no thinking about ‘epidemic’ or ‘cancer’ now, where is it? In other words, we’re so used to being lost in the concepts without awareness, that we forget that all that is real at this moment are namas (mental phenomena) such as thinking, seeing, touching and so on and rupas (physical phenomena) such as hardness, visible object, sound and so on. Anxiety or attachment will always find an object to latch on to, whether it’s a set of concepts about a loss, the war, this epidemic or another illness. However, by understanding more about the dhammas arising at this moment, there will be some insight into what the real problems in life are. There can even be a little wise consideration about the inherently unsatisfactory nature of these same namas and rupas which arise and fall regardless of whether there is any knowledge about them or not. I think what I may have said before is that through the body-sense there is the experience of hardness or heat or motion only. The cancer is just at the moment of thinking. Christine asked about lobha, dosa and moha (attachment, aversion and ignorance). I find that even when I’m reading the daily news and statistics about the epiedemic, that there isn’t just dosa (aversion and anxiety). In between there is so much attachment to finding out the information, to looking at the pictures on the News and in between, ignorance at all those times when there isn’t any awareness or wholesome states of any kind. Seeing how intermingled the various kilesa (defilements) are helps us to know that these states don’t last at all. In between the attachment and ignorance there are also all the processes of seeing and hearing and other sense-door cittas (consciousness) when there is no idea at all about illness or war or computer. Understanding more about realities doesn’t mean ‘no action’ or not taking precautions to avoid sickness. In the recent ‘Way’ extracts (eg Way 69) it discusses Clear Comprehension of what is suitable. For example, it says under the section on food, “Non-suitable to one is the food by which to that one there is discomfort...”. One follows precautions as we’re all doing here in Hong Kong for the virus. However, even when reading these conventionally worded precautions and pieces of advice, such as those recently quoted from other suttas too, we should reflect on the meaning in terms of absolute truths which lies behind whatever we hear or read. So in the section of ‘Way’ from which I just quoted about “Non-suitable...”, we read a little further on the passage which starts: “Within there is no eater called a self. As stated already, by the diffuseness of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, only, there is the receiving of food in the bowl...” It continues further by giving the details of the various dhatus (elements) involved. Thus whatever we read in the texts should be understood by what has been ‘stated already’, i.e khandhas (aggregates), dhatus (elements), ayatanas (sense-fields) and so on, otherwise, there will always be the clinging to an idea of self taking actions and of concepts such as loss of dear ones, wars and epidemics as being the causes of our problems. Metta, Sarah p.s Kom, James & All - there will be very few posts from Starkids during these few weeks as I won't be seeing them. ========================= 20801 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Mar 30, 2003 10:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions again....(kom) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > p.s Kom, James & All - there will be very few posts from Starkids during > these few weeks as I won't be seeing them. > ========================= Hi Sarah, I am sorry to hear that and to hear of your current difficulties. Do take care. Metta, James 20802 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Mar 30, 2003 11:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Dear Smallchap, You wrote: ---------- > The Buddha actually praised those who strive for enlightenment. See commentary to Dhammapada Verse 166 > ----------- I'm sure he did; especially if their striving was of the Right kind, a factor of the Path. Not just Right Effort, but all kusala effort is potentially a condition for sympathetic joy (mudita), to arise in another person who recognises it. My question is; is it possible to strive for enlightenment in a kusala way, that is not also the way the Buddha taught? The Right Effort that the Buddha taught, is conditioned by, and follows on, Right Understanding -- in the same mind-moment. So Right Understanding comes first. If we attempt to have Right Effort or Right Concentration first, then we are DENYING Right Understanding at that moment. How can that be kusala? How could the Buddha, or anyone, have praise (or mudita), for that? Is this how you see it? Kind regards, Ken H 20803 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 30, 2003 11:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A bit of a rave (was: Arahants) Hi Dharam, Sorry for the delay and thank you for all your very well-considered comments. Most of what you say I agree with and could never have expressed so eloquently. Just a few more comments in context of some of your comments, rudely snipped for now. --- bodhi342 wrote: D:> Let us take > notice of the Buddha's method - he could easily have given the > standard answer to almost any question asked of him related to > Dukkha, and its solution. Let us reflect on why he chose to tailor > the answer to the question, and to the questioner.... ..... well-tailored to the context, but I believe the same truths regardless of the listener’s ability to comprehend ..... D: > I must admit to mild disappointment that 'exploration' is too often > based on who can quote the best sutta, rather than the more messy and > laborious working through on first-principles. ..... I think for most of us here, there is the idea that if A’s experience/gut reaction/inner meditative intuition/thinking says XYZ and B’s says the opposite, then we are interested to see what the sutta may say as a kind of ‘referee’ of the Buddha’s Teachings which is what we are interested in understanding after all. It gets interesting when there are different interpretations of that sutta (as happens all the time). Then, for some of us at least, we prefer to look at what the ancient commentaries say than again relying on contrary experiences, gut reactions and so forth. ..... D:> Truth, IMHO, is not > something to be placed on an alter, with us bowing intellectually, > and being seen to be bowing intellectually towards. Truth is to > be picked up, felt, prodded, kneaded, and ultimately incorporated > into one's being [anatta notwithstanding ;-) ], IF it passes those > tests. And what if not? Then, respect the other opinion on its > value, and revisit later. The essence of those tests is > unrelenting honesty and just skepticism. ..... Very good and beautifully put. In fact the original appeal to me of the Buddha’s Teachings was simply the fact that it could be be “picked up, felt, prodded, kneaded, and ultimately incorporated into one's being [anatta notwithstanding ;-) ]”. In other words, there is nothing that needs to be accepted because one is told it is so. Initially the picking up and prodding has to be done intellectually, but gradually awareness can and does develop to make it possible for panna (understanding) to really know what is truth and what isn’t. The current discussions on concepts and realities is an example of this. Pick up, prod and knead, but it’ll be found that only realities can be known and never concepts which have no inherent characteristics and can only ever be imagined or conceptualised. ..... D:> Finally, the ability to transmit one's understanding is important. > Here, Erwin Schrodinger's words ring out like a bell: > "If you cannot - in the long run - tell everyone what you have been > doing, your doing has been worthless." Try transposing the > word 'thinking' in the place of 'doing', if you like. ..... I like this and very much agree in sentiment. Perhaps I’d transpose doing and thinking with ‘understanding’. The argument of being ‘beyond words’ has never appealed to me, especially as the Buddha was never at a loss for those words. Hence the value of a discussion list;-) ..... > D: These may be points that I suggest, but keep in mind the method of > inquiry. The method of questioning is not to justify one position > over another. It is to explore together, and either convince or be > convinced, or neither as the case may be. The method, is to shed > light on areas that may have been overlooked, are causing pause, or > seem inconsistent. ..... Again well-put and I’m very much in favour of the ‘explore together’ approach and the great value of new input on DSG shedding light on “areas that may have been overlooked, are causing pause, or seem inconsistent”. It’s easy to become compacent when everyone agrees. I think contrary views, comments and questions do us all a big favour and we learn a lot by our own responses. ..... D:> I would expect most of you to indeed suggest that the Buddha's > teachings are superior, otherwise A) why would you be here; and B) > why would I come to you for learning? The next step, however, is > to consider if that assumption is correct. This is emotionally too > difficult for most to even consider, and it is not my intention to > stress anyone. Paradoxically, it requires relinquishing of 'self- > importance'. .... I think the point of my post (and also see Mike’s comments) was to partly suggest that we have no interest at all in comparing the Buddha’s Teachings to other Teachings. We’re here simply because we find an extraordinary depth in these Teachings, all the answers to the questions we’ve always had and therefore don’t find a need to explore elsewhere. I don’t see any ‘self-importance’ or ‘conceit’ necessarily involved at all, though as Mike said, these particular kilesa are rampant during much of daily life regardless. Perhaps it’s like when one has a job that one is happy with and feels fulfilled in. One doesn’t bother to look at other jobs or to compare. If one has misgivings or is unhappy, one may however be inclined to look around or keep another option up one’s sleeve;-) ..... ***** D:> You assume that my 'problem' is related to baggage - which means the > reluctance to relinquish cherished beliefs, in this instance. .... I thought I was careful to emphasise that I don’t think other baggage or cherished beliefs should be relinquished. I tried to stress they have their own value and goal and “these should not be rejected or are worthless”. I was merely trying to suggest caution with regard to comparing different beliefs or Teachings,like comparing apples with oranges - one taste at a time to know it, but it may not have been very skilful in conception or conveyance. I apologise for any negative sounding connotations which I had not meant to imply. ..... D:> BTW is it easy to > dump 'accumulations'? ;-) .... ;-) I can see some understanding of anatta taking firm root. .... D:> Seems a shame, > so much wasted - effort, time, comforts, relationships on and on. > You can tell by now that I prefer repair to replacement!! ..... Well, in a sense we can say there is replacement at each moment regardless of any wishes to the contrary. No need to look back of cling to past cherished anythings. what’s been has gone completely. ..... D: > More..... ecologically sound ;-). This depends on the surgeon one > chooses to correct the deformity. .... ....or my preference is to look at an alternative treatment. Initially keep the surgery as a ‘fall-back’ or safety-net. If the alternative treatment has effect, one will become less and less interested in the surgery. It can be difficult to integrate the various treatments. Ok, I need to stop talking in riddles;-) ..... D:> One wonders if the Buddha only got converts by similarly insisting on > irretrievably checking baggage for newcomers. Difficult to tell > after so long, but most 'newcomer' religions poach on believers, > rather than non-believers. ;-) Therefore, it is likely that he > taught redirection rather than erasing as an initial step. This > speculation is beyond my pay grade. .... ;-) I think that all we can say is that understanding has to develop and ignorance has to decrease. The next question is, understanding of what and ignorance of what?? ..... D:> Sukin and I have discussed these issues before using the analogy of > bridges. What you are saying is that I should jump without knowing > where I will land, and assuming there is no bridge to the place where > I am now at. In other words, take what you say as Truth, even if > all is not yet revealed. All prior truth is not only subordinated, > but relinquished forever. Is jumping courage or foolishness or > desperation or sufficiently accumulated insight? Somehow, at this > age, I go for bridges. .... Me too. Walk slowly and carefully as Nina suggested, take a good look at the other side - test, prod and knead. It’ll depend on conditions whether you stay, return or go to and forth;-) No rules and certainly no blind leaps. ..... D:> The alternate question may be "Whose > baggage is more burdensome?" (No need to answer, gentle Sarah.) .... ..but I can’t resist;-) No need to compare and I certainly agree that we need to be concerned with our own. Thx for the reminder too. .... > D: I am very glad you posted it. Disagreeing does not have to be > disagreeable. I know you mean well, I hope you know that I mean > well too. We go about it in different ways. What you say about > recognition of attachment is absolutely true, and should be one of > the central preoccupations of pursuing "..............". ..... Actually, it’s always agreeable for me to read your posts and write. Reminds me of discussions I had with Goglerr (whom I missing) in terms of the kind speech regardless of agreement/disagreement. .... D:> I have learnt a great deal from you, Nina, Mike, RobK, Jon, Larry et > al, and last, but not in any way least, Sukin. It is time now to > move on. I thank you for your patience, compassion, effort, time > and humor. > > I wish all of you anumodana. May your pursuit be fruitful. ..... Thank you Dharam. I sincerely hope that as you ‘move on’, you keep in touch with us all here and continue to prod and so on. We can all learn a lot from you in this and many other regards, especially that of fine right speech. Metta, Sarah ====== 20804 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 30, 2003 11:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Dear Smallchap & All, > -----Original Message----- > From: smallchap [mailto:smallchap@y...] > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:54 PM > > Dear Kom, > > > > > I think the Buddha urges the right efforts, and not the > > wrong efforts. Not all efforts are equivalent. > > > > kom > ------------- > > Yes. This I understand. Even right effort have > varying degrees of > intensities. Some right effort is better than no effort. > This is where the details in the Abhidhamma become really useful to us. Wrong efforts are those efforts that arise with the akusala states. There are many kinds of wrong efforts: efforts in over indulgence, efforts in doing bad things, and surprisingly, efforts in following the rite and rituals in regard to the practice, even in one who seems to remember many stories from the tipitakas. The right efforts are just the opposite. It arises with all the kusala states, but there is a kind of right efforts that only the sammasam-buddha can teach: the right effort that is part of the 8-fold path. This effort arises whenever there is mindfulness of the reality that is appearing, and along with the right effort, right view, right thought, right mindfulness, and right concentration are conascent with the right effort. We learn from the abhidhamma that within a single (complete, or nearly complete) citta process, there must be kusala and akusala states within the process. Hence, there is already efforts whenever we see, hear, taste, touch, or think, or even within a jhana state, regardless of whether or not we are trying to do anything. There is already effort when we are really sleepy and tired. There is already effort when we are relaxing, perhaps enjoying music. There is also effort whenever we give, abstain from bad deed, and whenever there is mindfulness of reality. Efforts come with all kusala and akusala states regardless of whether or not we are attempting to exert/not to exert any efforts. Wrong efforts are easy and subtle, so I think we should be careful and thorough in examining our own efforts. kom 20805 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 0:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions again....(kom) Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 10:02 PM > > Hi Kom & All, > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Understanding more about realities doesn’t mean > ‘no action’ or not taking > precautions to avoid sickness. In the recent > ‘Way’ extracts (eg Way 69) it > discusses Clear Comprehension of what is > suitable. For example, it says > under the section on food, “Non-suitable to one > is the food by which to > that one there is discomfort...”. One follows > precautions as we’re all > doing here in Hong Kong for the virus. Somebody asked me about a question (related to the war) about the Buddhist view in regard to what we can do when facing with dangers (from a person). I said, one can always run away, if one can, and she said amusingly (or is it wise-cracking?) that "yeah, we are not stupid." This also reminds me one of the practice mentioned in the tipitaka in which one follows a path regardless of where it leads to, even off a cliff. I think this is a very unsuitable sort of practice, I think one cannot develop mindfulness when one pass on to another life where there is no such condition [to develop mindfulness] ;-). kom 20806 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A bit of a rave (was: Arahants) Hi Sukin, I’ve been glad to read your recent posts. Please don’t feel discouraged about posting whenever James disagrees with you - none of us would be here posting if we followed your example;-) As James says or implies, we need to keep the lively posters in order for there to be any discussion;-) --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > As you know I am inclined against any type of formal practice and the > following of rites and rituals, I want to express in this regard my > appreciation for the teachings of Guru Nanak the founder of Sikh > religion. He like Krishnamurti another person that I admire, is > against the idea of following any 'fixed' activity with the idea of > attaining purity and wisdom. In fact i believe that Krishnamurti was > influenced very much by Theravada teachings as a young man. .... I think I’ve mentioned before that when I first became interested in Buddhism (and was a keen meditator), I used to also read Krishnamurti and discuss his writings with Munindra in Bodh Gaya. A few years later, I went to some talks Munindra gave near my home in England. At one of these, when I was very impressed by what he said, I rather boldly asked him why he didn’t acknowledge that what he said was contained in the Buddha’s Teachings. It was so much in essence more ‘correct’ according to my understanding of the Teachings than what I heard so many Theravada teachers saying. He didn’t reply and I understood his silence to suggest that there was no need to put labels on truths. I appreciate this. I think, however, that by recognising the Buddha’s wisdom and acknowledging it, it allows one to explore the Teachings more deeply. ..... Also I > have heard that Guru Nanak went around India and the Middle East > collecting teachings from various wisdom traditions, so maybe he too > came in contact with Buddhism?! But maybe not. .... I’m afraid I really know very little about Guru Nanak but I believe that any teacher with influence who discourages exploration of truth rather than following a fixed activity is worthy of respect as well. ..... Sukin, I really appreciate the way you express the following. To my mind, what you express shows confidence in Truth and is not in the slightest bit ‘manipultive’ with any negative connotations: Sukin: >We become familiar with gross manifestations of > realities, this is done with a corresponding level of panna. In the > beginning the ignorance is very "thick". When sati arises, ignorance > does not, so each time sati and panna arises, we become more intimate > with these realities. As intimacy grows finer and finer > manifestations of characteristic become known, first the individual > and unique characterisic, later the general one common to all > realities, namely the tilakkhana. The idea of putting ones mind into > noticing rise and fall may well be an act of ignorance. Intention > does not do that job, sati and panna does. Panna has to grow slowly > through being intimate, that is the only way. ..... What you write here is also what I wished to convey and I think Mike too: ..... Sukin: > And why this conviction does not necessarily condition conceit or > seeing that Buddhism is superior to other religions. My object is > right view not the glory of buddhism. But I do understand why > outsiders would see differently. ..... Sukin: > Like Sarah, I too feel a some hesitation in sending this post, but > I'll do it anyway, hoping that I will be able to mend any damage done. ...... Your style may be forceful (like many others’), but I always appreciate your kind intentions and am always glad to read your ideas. I know James would never wish to discourage anyone from expressing contrary views either and like him, I think it’s healthy for everyone (Starkids included) to read different understandings and come to their own conclusions. After all, did any of us just believe what we were told as children, let alone as adults??? Metta, Sarah ======= 20807 From: smallchap Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 0:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Dear Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Smallchap, > > You wrote: > ---------- > > The Buddha actually praised those who strive for > enlightenment. See commentary to Dhammapada Verse 166 > > > ----------- > > My question > is; is it possible to strive for enlightenment in a > kusala way, that is not also the way the Buddha taught? ---------- S: The answer is a definitive "no". ------------------------------ > The Right Effort that the Buddha taught, is conditioned > by, and follows on, Right Understanding -- in the same > mind-moment. So Right Understanding comes first. --------------------- S: I am not sure if right understanding is the only condition for the arising of right effort. -------------------------- > If we attempt to have Right Effort or Right Concentration > first, then we are DENYING Right Understanding at that > moment. How can that be kusala? How could the Buddha, > or anyone, have praise (or mudita), for that? > > Is this how you see it? > --------------------- S: The first (few) moment(s) may be without right undertsnading when attempt is made for right effort. The sebsequent thought moments are not necessary without right understanding. There is a sutta, Bhumija Sutta, though not eaxctly illustrate this point, but close enough to be used as an example: "......... But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration: If they follow the holy life even when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when both having made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life even when neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining results. ............" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html smallchap 20808 From: smallchap Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Dear Kom, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Smallchap & All, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: smallchap [mailto:smallchap@y...] > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:54 PM > > > > Dear Kom, > > > > > > > > I think the Buddha urges the right efforts, and not the > > > wrong efforts. Not all efforts are equivalent. > > > > > > kom > > ------------- > > > > Yes. This I understand. Even right effort have > > varying degrees of > > intensities. Some right effort is better than no effort. > > > > This is where the details in the Abhidhamma become really > useful to us. Wrong efforts are those efforts that arise > with the akusala states. There are many kinds of wrong > efforts: efforts in over indulgence, efforts in doing bad > things, and surprisingly, efforts in following the rite and > rituals in regard to the practice, even in one who seems to > remember many stories from the tipitakas. > > The right efforts are just the opposite. It arises with all > the kusala states, but there is a kind of right efforts that > only the sammasam-buddha can teach: the right effort that is > part of the 8-fold path. This effort arises whenever there > is mindfulness of the reality that is appearing, and along > with the right effort, right view, right thought, right > mindfulness, and right concentration are conascent with the > right effort. > > We learn from the abhidhamma that within a single (complete, > or nearly complete) citta process, there must be kusala and > akusala states within the process. Hence, there is already > efforts whenever we see, hear, taste, touch, or think, or > even within a jhana state, regardless of whether or not we > are trying to do anything. There is already effort when we > are really sleepy and tired. There is already effort when > we are relaxing, perhaps enjoying music. There is also > effort whenever we give, abstain from bad deed, and whenever > there is mindfulness of reality. Efforts come with all > kusala and akusala states regardless of whether or not we > are attempting to exert/not to exert any efforts. > > Wrong efforts are easy and subtle, so I think we should be > careful and thorough in examining our own efforts. > > kom ---------- Thank you for the explanation of right and wrong efforts. I appreciate it very much. smallchap 20809 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > I am sorry to hear that and to hear of your current difficulties. > Do take care. > > Metta, James ..... Thanks for this James and for all the metta you show the kids and all of us. I will make sure that sooner or later they do all see the wonderful letters you, KKT, Kom and others have been writing, but these closures were so sudden that I didn’t even have a chance to see most the children first to make any arrangements. Quite a headache for working parents and the kids themselves, especially as no one knows how long it’ll last. The masks have become uniform now for children;-) Anyway, as you’re the first to appreciate, life is full of misfortunes! ..... While I’m talking to you, I’d like to make a few comments on another post you wrote (to Nina): --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > I want to address, from my perspective, why the knowledge of dhammas > isn't comparable to the knowledge that arises from vipassana > practice. The mind states, and thoughts, and consciousness factors > that you are talking about occur very fast, so fast that they cannot > be caught without intense concentration and mindfulness of them. If > one tries to catch them, with everyday mind, in order to be aware of > their influence, it is too late. With everyday mind the most you > can hope to be aware of is a mind state after it has already > occurred, not while it is occuring. By then, it is too late, the > damage has already been done. ..... I understand just what you are saying here. Perhaps we should however consider a) why we are so concerned to ‘catch’ anything and b) if at the present moment we are typing/reading/cooking/shopping/teaching, how does it help to have the idea of another time/place/practise? c) what vipassana practice is according to the texts. ..... >The type of negative mind states that > you are describing are of only the grossest and most obvious types. > Of course you can notice the aversion that comes when your e-mail > crashes; that is easy to notice and doesn't require any knowledge of > the Abhidhamma. ..... I agree with you here! ..... >But can you notice the aversion that comes second > after second from just the most basic of things as sitting in the > chair, hearing the starting music, reading a word, hitting a key, > hitting more keys, entering your password, seeing the screen change, > seeing the little AOL charater run, hearing "You've Got Mail"etc., > etc., etc.,...can you really be aware of the aversions, attractions, > and neutral reactions that occur during each of these moments while > they are happening? .... I agree with these comments too. Just as you ask, is there any awareness of “aversions, attractions, and neutral reactions” at these times, let alone moments of seeing, hearing and bodily experiencing in between? Good questions! ..... >Not with everyday mind. How about after they > have already happened? Not possible because there are more reactions > taking your attention. What you are describing is noticing the type > of mind states that have reached a critical mass, and by then it is > too late. The damage is already done, the ego has already been > reinforced, the karma has been created anew. .... OK, lots of agreement so far .... > The only way to get to the root of the problem, to be mindful and > aware of the reactions as they occur, to cease those reactions simply > from observation of them, is during Vipassana practice. This cannot > be done with everyday mindfulness. .... I agree that ‘everyday mindfulness’ or conventional mindfulness is not the key. However I fail to see how any ‘practice’ at another time would help sati and panna arise at the present moment when we’re sitting at the computer (btw, I don’t have any little AOL character telling me I’ve got mail;-( ). Surely only present moment sati and panna are of any use? ..... > Now, what is the difference between someone who just lets their > reactions occur and someone who labels them with Abhidhamma terms > after they have already occured? The person who labels the events > after they occur believes that he/she have a knowledge of something > which others don't have. They also believed that have stopped the > influence of something negative when they really haven't. ..... Any reflecting or using of labels is merely intellectual understanding at best. However, if it’s ‘right’ reflecting, it is kusala (wholesome) and a condition for more right reflecting and thereby direct understanding to develop. We read the Buddha’s reminders about meeting the good friend, hearing, considering and wise attention as being the appropriate conditions for wisdom and vipassana to develop. If anyone thinks that merely by thinking wisely that they “have stopped the influence of something negative”, this would be wrong view. In just the same way, during your meditation practice, moments of wise reflection or other wholesome states will be a condition for more in future, but any attachment or wrong view will bring the reverse. ..... >Because > this person truly hasn't elimated the root of desire, this thinking > that they know something special and have done something special > grows into a very strong conceit. So the first type of person has > suffering, while the second type of person has suffering and > conceit. ..... I think we all agree here that attachment and conceit are defilements to know and understand when they arise. I appreciate the constant reminders about them on DSG. Like Sukin and I mentioned to Dharam, however, I don’t understand conceit to necessarily arise when talking about realities, abhidhamma or any other aspect of the Buddha’s Teachings. We have to learn to be sincere and honest about the present states, I agree and oten it’s easy to kid ourselves about nobler motives and purposes and not to see the more subtle kilesa (defilements) as Chris was indicating. ..... >If the roots are not destroyed through Vipassana meditation > practice, Abhidhamma knowledge results in more ignorance than non- > Abhidhamma knowledge. .... I think we also agree here. If Abhidhamma knowledge is merely book knowledge and is not accompanied by any development of panna and vipassana, the danger of merely accumulating attachment and conceit is as high as when one accumulates any other kind of book knowledge. Hence we read about how the bhikkhu who is “ill-trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical ab?tractions and thinks of the unthinkable.....madness or vexation will be the portion of him who does so.” (Athasalini transl p31). Having agreed so far, perhaps we need to discuss what the Buddha means (and says he means) by ‘Vipassana meditation practice’, because for some of us vipassana has a very specific meaning as used in the texts and always refers to the present moment and highly developed wisdom of namas and rupas. On the other hand, I expect most members on the list either share your sentiments about meditation practice or like others of us, have followed similar practices before and so fully understand and appreciate your viewpoint in this regard. ..... I hope I have made this clear without being > offensive, but I don't know any other way to put it. This is my > perspective, and, as always, could be mistaken. .... I’m appreciating all the kind words everyone is expressing recently. Sometimes these are dearly held ideas and practices and we’re all bound to step on a few toes from time to time in spite of our mostly good intentions;-). I know these are sensitive areas (read lots of clinging) for us all. Btw, only some of the older kids have internet access at home, but perhaps I’ll call around if the closures continue and try to explain to them how to see your letters and encourage them to respond if they feel inclined to do so. Metta, Sarah ======= 20810 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination for Laymen (Part I) Hi Larry (& Howard), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I looked up the answer to this question and found that the very > unintuitive abhidhamma does in fact confirm your intuition, with a few > qualifications. I'm using for my source an essay on paticcasamuppada by > Nyanatiloka in his "Guide Through the Abhidhamma Pitaka". ..... I liked the way you presented this very much indeed - sometimes, Larry, you come out with just the right quotes and impress me very much with the resources you us;-) Howard, I've snipped it all now, but the extract Larry gave and the book he refers to are good examples of a direct summary of the Abhidhamma texts. I think you'd find it a useful little book. It's always been available from the BPS, I'm not sure about elsewhere, but it would be cheap. Let me just re-quote the last few paragraphs with Larry's good comment at the very end: Nyantiloka: > In other words, these 5 kinds of sensuous consciousness cannot arise > without the pre-arising, presence, and the faculty of the 5 physical > sense-organs as Support. > > The physical Organ of Mind is, during life-continuity, to the Mind-Base > (consciousness) a condition by way of Support, PRE-nascence, > Dissociation, Presence, and Non-disappearance. > > In other words, consciousness, during life-continuity, depends on the > Support, PRE-arising and Presence of the physical Organ of Mind. quote> Larry: > L: So, to answer the question of sequence in the consciousness, > namarupa, sense base formula, it is all mostly co-nascent, with a few > pre-nascences, and one post-nascence. Additionally, they all three > include aspects of one another. ***** Look forward to more, Larry and thx Howard for the prompts and all your other questions and comments elsewhere. Metta, Sarah ======= 20811 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 5:04am Subject: Correction: Re: [dsg] Re: A bit of a rave (was: Arahants) CORRECTION In the following in, it should read: "A few years later, I went to some talks KRISHNAMURTI gave near my home in England." Apologies, Sarah --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Sukin, > I used to also read Krishnamurti > and > discuss his writings with Munindra in Bodh Gaya. A few years later, I > went > to some talks Munindra gave near my home in England. 20812 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Mike I am not in disagreement with anything you say here ;-)) M: "The Buddha often spoke in purely conventional terms (e.g. on the benefits of using a toothbrush in the Vinaya) and didn't, I think, limit his speech or meanings exclusively to paramattha dhammas." J: Agreed, but even in such apparently mundane matters as this toothbrush rule there are levels other than the purely superficial and most conventional. For example, was the Buddha's concern here purely for the oral hygiene of his monks, or did it have implications for the monk's life in general, and for samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana in particuloar? M: "... to deny the conventional expressions in the tipitaka seems to me not only dismiss a large portion of the tipitaka but also to deny the validity of the understanding of those who know the dhamma only on the level of vohaara sacca--a necessary level of understanding to begin to approach abhidhamma for most people, I think." J: I did not mean to deny the conventional aspect, but simply to point out that there was more to it than that. M: "'Dukkha', like 'dhamma' has different connotations dependent on context, I think." J: Exactly so. Shouldn't we be trying to understand at whatever level we are capable of? Going back to the statement of the first Noble Truth, "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha.", note the implication of the words "In short", in relation to the other 11 preceding aspects of the truth. The Visuddhi-Magga says in connection with the 5 aggregates as the truth of suffering (Vis XVI): "60. It is impossible to tell it all without remainder, showing each kind of suffering, even by going on doing so for many aeons, so the Blessed One said 'In short the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging are suffering' in order to show in short how all that suffering is present in any of a five aggregates [as objects] of clinging in the same way that the taste of the water in the whole ocean is to be found in a single drop of its water." Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Jon, > (By the way, an interesting but parenthetical point: what, if any, is the relationship between pa.tisandhi citta and the arising of each moment of consciousness? I'd be very interested in any citations from the texts linking the two). OK, how about 'association with the unbeloved, separation from the loved and not getting what is wanted'? Paramattha dhammas can surely be inferred from these concepts (all pointing at domanassa associated with forms of dosa I suppose) but still these are conventional, conceptual expressions, aren't they? The Buddha often spoke in purely conventional terms (e.g. on the benefits of using a toothbrush in the Vinaya) and didn't, I think, limit his speech or meanings exclusively to paramattha dhammas. Another example: "Sleeping till sunrise, adultery, irascibility, malevolence, evil companions, avarice -- these six causes ruin a man. "The man who has evil comrades and friends is given to evil ways, to ruin does he fall in both worlds -- here and the next. "Dice, women, liquor, dancing, singing, sleeping by day, sauntering at unseemly hours, evil companions, avarice -- these nine causes ruin a man. "Who plays with dice and drinks intoxicants, goes to women who are dear unto others as their own lives, associates with the mean and not with elders -- he declines just as the moon during the waning half. "Who is drunk, poor, destitute, still thirsty whilst drinking, frequents the bars, sinks in debt as a stone in water, swiftly brings disrepute to his family. "Who by habit sleeps by day, and keeps late hours, is ever intoxicated, and is licentious, is not fit to lead a household life." Digha Nikaya 31 Sigalovada Sutta I think you know that I'm reasonably convinced of abhidhamma and that it is the 'high teaching'. But to deny the conventional expressions in the tipitaka seems to me not only dismiss a large portion of the tipitaka but also to deny the validity of the understanding of those who know the dhamma only on the level of vohaara sacca--a necessary level of understanding to begin to approach abhidhamma for most people, I think. 'Dukkha', like 'dhamma' has different connotations dependent on context, I think. Corrections welcomed! mike 20813 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Howard H: Forgive me, Jon, but it seems to me that you are radically reinterpreting clear language here to force it to fit your preferred framework. J: I hope not, Howard, in this instance at least. But it's good to know I wouldn't be allowed to get away with it ;-)) H: It is indeed conventional events here that the Buddha is saying are found to be distressing. The fact that they do not exist as they appear, "out in the world", but only as percepts in the mind, doesn't change matters. It is, indeed, our experiences of loss of those apparent things that we crave, of not getting those things we seem to want, and so on that cause us distress. This is the grossest and most powerful form of dukkha, namely strong distress and grief, that the Buddha is pointing to in these passages. When a loved one passes on, there has actually been a mere continuation of the dhammic flow, and were that all we were to "see", no grief would result - but the primary distress results from the conventional knowledge that "our loved one is gone, that sweet, loving person who was so much a part of our life is no longer present, and will not be present again (in this lifetime)". J: Yes, there is indeed dukkha in the sense you describe here, i.e. that 'conventional events ... are found to be distressing'. But is that all there is to the truth that the Buddha discovered? I don't think so. H: That is how it appears to the mind, and that is the source of great distress, not, for example, such a matter as the hardness of a moment ago no longer being present. Our dukkha arises from *mental concocting* - from our thoughts, desires, and hates, virtually all directed towards conventional things. J: Yes this is how it seems to us, that if only there was no 'mental concocting', there would be no more suffering, apart from painful feeling (i.e., the result of akusala kamma through the body-sense). However, the Buddha's discovery was that all conditioned dhammas have the inherent characteristic of dukkha. This is something about which we have very little idea, due to our lack of understanding of the true nature of dhammas. H: On the other hand, the *solution* to the problem of dukkha, how this can be brought to an end, is the application of skillful means of many sorts taught by the Buddha, operating at multiple levels of our mentality including the conventional levels, but the core ingredient of which is the microscopic, concentrated vipassana that gives insight into the ultimate nature of what is, and especially coming to see the impermanence (and conditionality), unsatisfactoriness, and impersonality of all that is experienced. Step by step, the mind is transformed until sufficient wisdom has arised to uproot the essential defilements and give us peace. J: I'm not sure if I have understood you here, but I would say that dukkha is a characteristic that pertains to all dhammas, whether those dhammas are internal or external, whether experienced by an arahant or by an ordinary person. Eradication of the tendency to mental proliferation, as in the arahant, does not mean the disappearance of this aspect of dukkha. Indeed, the development of insight necessary for that enlightenment means that this characteristic is seen all the more keenly (but we may be in agreement on this). Jon 20814 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > I don't see any limitation as to 5-sense door objects only. No, not in the passage quoted. But the immediately preceding passage in CMA makes specific reference to 'the fivefold sense consciousness', and that is clearly the context. > As this snippet shows, the "intrinsic" is > euphemistic, doesn't mean paramatta. Not sure what you mean when you say that 'intrinsic' doesn't mean paramattha here. Which part of the quote are you referring to? Jon 20815 From: Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi, Sarah (and James) - In a message dated 3/31/03 4:33:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > >The only way to get to the root of the problem, to be mindful and > >aware of the reactions as they occur, to cease those reactions simply > >from observation of them, is during Vipassana practice. This cannot > >be done with everyday mindfulness. > .... > I agree that ‘everyday mindfulness’ or conventional mindfulness is not the > key. However I fail to see how any ‘practice’ at another time would help > sati and panna arise at the present moment when we’re sitting at the > computer (btw, I don’t have any little AOL character telling me I’ve got > mail;-( ). Surely only present moment sati and panna are of any use? > ============================= Just a comment (and small idea) with respect to this issue. I don't think that it is exactly so that awakening can occur only *during* vipassana practice, but I do think that deep and sharp meditation is important. Deep meditation, with the mind highly focussed is a cultivating activity, one among several cultivation activities taught by the Buddha. [Others include, for example, observing sila, thereby calming the mind by faultless action (or as close as one can approximate that), and also guarding the senses.] It is like preparing a field for planting. The seed can then be dropped into the soil at any time, not necessarily while tilling the field. I'm also reminded of slowly chilling a solution to a critical point - then the slightest vibration could change its state to ice. I think about the followers of the Buddha who became enlightened when hearing a teaching from the Buddha - their minds had already been cultivated. All that was further needed was what the Zen folks call a "turning word". Another thought that comes to mind are all the Zen stories of a person becoming enlightened to some degree or other at the sound of a pebble sharply striking a bamboo tree. In each case, it is the straw that broke the camel's back after that camel had carried heavy loads for many trips. Just as an aside, my own history includes two "enlightenment experiences" [I'm *not* claiming to be enlightened! ;-))], neither of which occurrred *while* meditating. But each occurred at a time at which I *had* been engaged in a period of regular and intensive formal meditation. The first occurred at a Goenka retreat involving six one-hour meditation periods a day (for me) and maintaining nearly complete silence throughout, but the "event" didn't occur while meditating - it occurred at night after awaking from a period of sleep. The second experience occurred at a time in my day to day life when I been been formally meditating regularly, every day, for two one-hour sittings, but the actual occurrence was while driving my car!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20816 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:49am Subject: Correction: Re: [dsg] Re: A bit of a rave (was: Arahants) Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: CORRECTION In the following in, it should read: "A few years later, I went to some talks KRISHNAMURTI gave near my home in England." Apologies, Sarah --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Sukin, > I used to also read Krishnamurti and > discuss his writings with Munindra in Bodh Gaya. > A few years later, I went > to some talks Munindra gave near my home in England. KKT: So the person to whom you put the question is Krishnamurti and not Munindra? There might be another correction in your post: << I'm afraid I really know very little about Guru Nanak but I believe that any teacher with influence who discourages exploration of truth rather than following a fixed activity is worthy of respect as well. >> I think it should be << encourages >> rather than << discourages >> ? Metta, KKT 20817 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 9:04am Subject: Citta now and mudita. Dear James and all, James was wondering whether citta only occurs in Abhidhamma and not in Suttanta. I do understand this problem, because in English the translation of mind or consciousness is used. Not everybody is inclined to Pali but here it helps to know just a few terms. Take the Satipatthana sutta, under: Contemplation of Consciousness: citta is used here. Many types are enumerated here: you have to know citta with lust, with anger, with delusion, and those without these akusala mental adjuncts (cetasikas). When citta is classified as khandha, the word vinnana is used. We have to see the khandhas in a very dynamic way. When there is seeing, seeing-consciousness is vinnanakkhandha. We read in the suttas: khandha is past, present or future. Seeing is only one moment. Citta sees. I had a good correspondance with a friend about citta and its conditions. He wrote to me that before studying Dhamma he found it hard to be polite, considerate and patient with his parents. But now he says:"I really think it is knowing the conditioned nature of kindness and respectfulness that has made the difference. I no longer think in terms of 'I must try harder with them.' " He feels that he can be good company to his parents now when he visits them. I wrote back: "I am always touched to see people's kusala citta. Also on those occasions when they apologize so sincerely as here on dsg. Before I was so impatient with my father, but by Lodewijk's example and A. Sujin insisting on the perfections I learnt a little more patience, and I never knew it can be trained and accumulated, just a little more. It is thanks to the Abhidhamma to realize one's cittas more, but we all know so well that we are in Kindergarten." I find his words about knowing the conditioned nature of kindness and respectfulness important. Reading and considering Dhamma conditions the natural arising of these qualities. And so it is with awareness and understanding of realities in daily life. No need to have an idea of I am trying, when there are the right conditions they can naturally arise. I wrote before about appreciation of other people's kusala, and this is included in mudita, sympathetic joy. You rejoice in other people's gains and also in their kusala. And also when you do not hide your kusala, you give others opportunity to have kusala citta also, to rejoice in it. I wrote to him: "When you write about kusala, it is not showing off, we see that it is conditioned, not mine. But, as I learnt in Thailand, you give others the opportunity to rejoice in your kusala, that is a kind of dana. Westerners may not understand at first, in Thailand it comes very naturally. It is dhamma. The others can have mudita." I think it is helpful to know that there are many possibilities for dana, including forgiving, as I wrote before. If we do not know about them, how can we develop them? This shows again the conditioned nature of kusala, and the importance of study of the scriptures. James is so worried that Abhidhamma leads to conceit about a special knowledge. No, it should not, but if you study in the wrong way it can lead to madness. It is dangerous to believe that you have university degrees when you are only in kindergarten. I spoke about kindergarten (school for very young children according to dictionary). We know, as Kom said, that there is the level of theoretical understanding, the level of practice, when you begin to be aware, and the level of realization of the truth. Through the Abhidhamma but also through suttanta and vinaya, you see many more faults and vices than before, you are less deluded about yourself. You know that these are conditioned, and just material to be known, to be eventually realized as not self. But we do not know when that will be. We should not be wishing and hoping for results. You know that there can be clinging to awareness, but you can realize such moments. Akusala has no nationality as Kom explained. Lobha (attachment) and dosa (aversion) are just lobha and dosa, not Dutch, not American. They have characteristics to be studied when they appear. Nina. 20818 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Dear Kom, op 31-03-2003 00:26 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > because of attachment to mindfulness, one sinks, and because > of the thought that I must follow this and that ritual to > have this mindfulness, one is swept away. N: I like very much your elaboration, and your remarks. It is so good to talk about this, what you just said: because of attachment to mindfulness, one sinks. For all of us. Although we know that this slows down, that it makes progress on the Path impossible, we still get caught, don't we? How grateful I am to A. Sujin to remind us time and again. Even when someone has reached stages of insight, there are still the imperfections of insight. Among them clinging. She makes us see how stubborn such clinging is and how subtle it can be. We were also reminded by A. Sujin that this is the second noble truth: clinging. This is not at all some abstract notion we have to learn from a book. Here is the second noble truth, but we do not notice it. It leads us astray, away from the end of the cycle of birth and death, from dukkha. Nina. 20819 From: dwlemen Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 10:13am Subject: Kamma and rebirth Everyone, I have been doing some more reading and have gotten myself confused again! Specifically, I was reading about Kamma and rebirth. I have 2 questions, one philisophical, the other more theoretical. 1.) If we are to say that one's situation in the present is dictated by Kamma seeds laid in the past, then do we say that people in essence "deserve" the plight they are in? So, for example, we could say that the Iraqi children who might be currently suffering are in that situation because of bad Kamma they acquired in the past. 2.) It seems to me that Kamma/Rebirth would lead us into some form of predestination. If my next birth and life are dictated by my actions in this one (and others), then would there not have to be some knowledge of how that new life will shape out. As another example; a very good friend of mine lost his wife last year to Mennengitis. Now, her death caused great suffering to him, his children, and her family. If we were to say that her parent's grief of watching their daughter die was due to their Kamma from the past, then how did the Universe know that that child would grow up and get a disease in her late 20's? It just seems that if we are to be suffering consequences of past actions, then the order to things must be very precise (or pre-determined). I hope my questions make sense. And, as always, I appreciate everyone's insights and wisdom (and patience) with my questions! I do learn a lot from you all. I am so glad I found this group! Peace, Dave 20820 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:51am Subject: Re: Kamma and rebirth Hi Dave, It's good to hear your questions. Everyone has wondered about this at some stage in their Buddhist journey - (as well as how can there be rebirth and kamma if there is no-self?). People's circumstances can seem heartrending, but, I find it helpful to look at all that happens against the background of Beginningless Time - even if only over a hundred thousand lifetimes, each of us is likely to have been (considering only this plane of existence) victim and perpetrator in many different scenarios. No-one *deserves* good or bad fortune - it is just a natural law, consequences follow actions. Kamma means intentional action by thought, word and deed. The Texts gave me the most hope when considering kamma and rebirth. At work, when I see a very sick baby, dying painfully and slowly over its first week of life, I try to see that this little one is not only four days old, but has lived through many, many previous lifetimes creating good and bad kamma, and that this painful vipaka (fruit), at least, will not have to be experienced again. I don't think kamma is an exact re-experience of a previous deed - and I don't think everything experienced is kamma. Kamma is just one of the twenty-four conditions (pacaya). I'm not sure what you have been reading, so this post may be recommending something you've already had a look at: Narada Thera has a comprehensive article at: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Runway/5787/kammaandrebirth1.ht ml Bhikkhu Bodhi's article is very concise, under headings: http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/kamma.htm and the Useful posts - three headings mentioning Kamma and one on Rebirth. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > Everyone, > > I have been doing some more reading and have gotten myself confused > again! Specifically, I was reading about Kamma and rebirth. I have > 2 questions, one philisophical, the other more theoretical. > > 1.) If we are to say that one's situation in the present is dictated > by Kamma seeds laid in the past, then do we say that people in > essence "deserve" the plight they are in? So, for example, we could > say that the Iraqi children who might be currently suffering are in > that situation because of bad Kamma they acquired in the past. > > 2.) It seems to me that Kamma/Rebirth would lead us into some form of > predestination. If my next birth and life are dictated by my actions > in this one (and others), then would there not have to be some > knowledge of how that new life will shape out. As another example; a > very good friend of mine lost his wife last year to Mennengitis. > Now, her death caused great suffering to him, his children, and her > family. If we were to say that her parent's grief of watching their > daughter die was due to their Kamma from the past, then how did the > Universe know that that child would grow up and get a disease in her > late 20's? It just seems that if we are to be suffering consequences > of past actions, then the order to things must be very precise (or > pre-determined). > > I hope my questions make sense. And, as always, I appreciate > everyone's insights and wisdom (and patience) with my questions! I > do learn a lot from you all. I am so glad I found this group! > > Peace, > > > Dave 20821 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Jon, This is what I was saying: 1. A computer is not a concept. 2. A computer is different from the concept of a computer. 3. They are closely related but are not one and the same. 4. They are dependent on each other, and this interdependency is the relation between nama and rupa. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > [snip] > > I'm not sure if I've understood you here, Victor. Are you are saying > that there are: > - dhammas such as are analysed and described in terms of the 5 > khandhas, namas and rupas etc > - concepts, which are wholly mind-constructed > - 'objects' that are neither of the above? > > I am not aware that this 3rd category is found in the teachings (but > I may have misunderstood you). > > Jon 20822 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott > I am not in disagreement with anything you say here ;-)) That's a relief! > M: "The Buddha often spoke in purely conventional terms (e.g. on the > benefits of using a toothbrush in the Vinaya) and didn't, I think, > limit his speech or meanings exclusively to paramattha dhammas." > > J: Agreed, but even in such apparently mundane matters as this > toothbrush rule there are levels other than the purely superficial > and most conventional. For example, was the Buddha's concern here > purely for the oral hygiene of his monks, or did it have implications > for the monk's life in general, and for samatha bhavana and vipassana > bhavana in particular? Yes, all three, in my opinion. I'm more and more convinced that the vinaya (in the sense of the monastic code) was mainly about creating an environment for jhaana bhavana--mainly for yogis already accustomed to this pursuit--with an eye toward eventually turning the yogis' attention to satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa. Somewhat parenthetically, I thought you might be interested in this passage from the copy of CMA that you and Sarah gave me, from the Guide to the Process of Absorption, Process of Absorption Javanas in the Mind Door, Compendium of the Cognitive Process (page 168): "In accordance with the way the mind is conveyed (yathaabhiniihaaravasena): This means that the absorption citta that arises is conditioned by the direction the meditator gives to his mind. If he wishes to attain the first jhaana, then he conveys his mind towards that jhaana through the development of calm concentration (samatha), and so too for the attainment of the higher jhaanas. If the meditator aims at reaching the path and fruit, then he conveys his mind towards the path and fruit through the development of insight (vipassanaa)." > M: "... to deny the conventional expressions in the tipitaka seems > to me not only dismiss a large portion of the tipitaka but also to > deny the validity of the understanding of those who know the dhamma > only on the level of vohaara sacca--a necessary level of > understanding to begin to approach abhidhamma for most people, I > think." > > J: I did not mean to deny the conventional aspect, but simply to > point out that there was more to it than that. Yes, I think I overstated my objection--no offense! > M: "'Dukkha', like 'dhamma' has different connotations dependent on > context, I think." > > J: Exactly so. Shouldn't we be trying to understand at whatever > level we are capable of? Definitely. > Going back to the statement of the first Noble Truth, > > "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, > lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the > unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting > what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are > dukkha.", > > note the implication of the words "In short", in relation to the > other 11 preceding aspects of the truth. The Visuddhi-Magga says in > connection with the 5 aggregates as the truth of suffering (Vis XVI): > > "60. It is impossible to tell it all without remainder, showing each > kind of suffering, even by going on doing so for many aeons, so the > Blessed One said 'In short the five aggregates [as objects] of > clinging are suffering' in order to show in short how all that > suffering is present in any of a five aggregates [as objects] of > clinging in the same way that the taste of the water in the whole > ocean is to be found in a single drop of its water." Excellent! mike 20823 From: m. nease Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Robert, This was a really outstanding post--I keep coming back to it. Not only a good refutation of Ven. Buddhadassa's accusations but more--very useful for investigating the riddle of kamma and rebirth. Difficult to get all this down and keep it straight (for me anyway). mike ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:40 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" < I am particularly interested in Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's thoughts as > he is so widely respected and influential both in the East and West. > Indeed, Prof. Donald K. Swearer often edits his writings and has > mentioned him as being the modern day Nagarjuna. > > I think I gave the url links for the sources of my quotes in my > original post? > The quote with regard to the 'kanha dhamma' is: "My teacher, the late > Ven. Náyaka Thera, said in private that nobody had ever become arahat > through listening to the books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. He did not, > however, say that they were wrong. But if you refer to the passage > from the Anguttara Sutta that I have quoted above, you will see that > a teaching that does not lead to awakening (or enlightenment) -- that > is, if it sets out to do so -- can be called a kanha dhamma, a 'dark > teaching'. This prompts the thought that the books of the Abhidhamma > Pitaka originated, not as tradition describes, but as the kanha > dhamma resulting from mistaken abhidhamma discussion by monks > undeveloped in body, virtue, mind, and understanding." ____________ Dear Christine, Thanks for giving the expanded quote by Nanavira. It still doesn't clarify for me why he believed this. Is there some point you feel is convincing that he has made somewhere? I'm sure we could find a hundred monks who don't like Abhidhamma - but it doesn't help much unless they give reasons and discuss it. ____________ > > Regarding Buddhadasa Bhikkhu: The chapter from which the quotes were > taken is Ch. 4 "Buddhadasa and his Interpretation of Buddhism', and > is itself is 35 pages long: > http://archiv.ub.uni-bielefeld.de/disshabi/2001/0059/chapter4.pdf > > "Buddhasdasa illustrates this argument [re Hindu concepts in the > Visuddhimagga] through historical evidence, such as Buddha's Own > Word, the Suttas in the Tipitaka. In his book he wrote the > title "What is Paticcasamuppada" (1971) showing the distinction > between what he considers the interpretation of Buddhist teaching > using Hindu concepts and in the Buddhist sense. He is convinced that > uncritical adherence to the Buddhaghosa orthodoxy has obscured a real > encounter with the Buddha's dhamma." > This book may be able to be obtained free of charge: > http://www.geocities.com/wave_books/freebooks.htm _____________ Thanks for this. Fortunately I have this book or a later edition(not with me right now) and have made notes. I will add some here: I read Practical Dependent Origination (Paticcasamuppada)by Ven. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu (of Thailand)after some prior discussions about it. In these discussions it was suggested that the Buddha did not teach rebirth and that this was a wrong idea that had come into the teachings. This book was cited as a source and guide. I think it has many useful points and I certainly appreciate any book on this most profound teaching of Paticcasamuppada. However, I remain convinced that the Buddha taught rebirth and that it is indeed a necessary corrollary of anatta and conditionality. I'd like to begin with these comments from the venerable Buddhadasa's book. He writes that p6 "therefore teaching Paticcasamupada in such a way that there is a self persisting over a series of lives is contrary to the principle of dependent origination." This is evident to anyone who has had even a cursory look at the Tipitaka; anatta is really the bedrock of Dhamma. There is no self persisting over lives. However, in the next sentence he says that "dependent origination is on no way concerned with morality which must depend upon a theory of Eternalism". This I don't follow. Kamma is simply a conditioned phenomenon - and it is just natural law that certain types of action lead to certain results. We can think of this as a moral law without evoking any self. In the following paragraph p.6 he says that an incorrectly explained theory has been taught for a thousand years. On p8 he explains with regard to this that the "during the time the commentaries were composed there arose a widespread tendency to explain matters of ultimate truths in terms of the Eternalist theory." He lays the blame for this on Buddhaghosa (ancient composer of the Visuddhimagga and many important commentaries) p8."the same person who collected all the commentaries together so that total blind acceptance..will allow only one voice to be heard." He is not sure how this wrongview arose but he speculates that it either happened because of lack of insight OR he thinks that it was a deliberate plot to destroy Buddhism for Brahmins who believed in atta (self)see page 51-52. He notes that there is no written evidence before the time of the Visuddhimagga [written by Buddhaghosa]where Paticcasamupada was explained wrongly. And that at the time of the third council (long before Buddhaghosa ) if one had "said there was a self that spun around in the cycle of birth and death and rebirth as in the case of Bhikkhu Sati he was held to be holding wrong views in the sense of Eternalism and was made to leave the order" . He equates such wrong views with the Visuddhimagga. He does note that Buddhaghosa p60 "is a man of great knowledge." He then says ."BUT I don't agree with him at all regarding Dependent Origination because he spoke of it in terms of a soul and so it became Brahministic." And he carries on (p63) to note that he "is not going to defile of defame or villify Buddhaghosa..I only want to make some observations. Buddhaghosa was born a Brahmin..and he completed a study of the three vedas like any other Brahmin. His spirit was that of a Brahmin..if he later came to explain the Buddhist theory of Dependent Origination as a form of Brahminism it is most reasonable to supsect that he was careless and forgetful so that he cannot be considered to be an Arahat."" So to sum up venerable Buddhadasa is suggesting that Buddhaghosa taught an Eternalistic (self, atta) version of the Paticcasamuppada, because of his brahmin (hinduistic) background. Is that true? I think it is best to let the ancient texts speak for themselves. From the relevant section of the Visuddhimagga Chapter XV11 Dependent origination 113 "but how does a man who is confused about these things perform these three kinds of formations? Firstly, when he is confused about death, instead of taking death thus 'death in every case is break up of aggregates(khandas, not-self)' he figures that it is lasting being's transmigration to another incarnation and so on". 115 "when he is confused about the round of rebirths, instead of taking the round of rebirths as pictured thus: 'an endless chain of aggregates(khandas) of elements(dhatus) bases(ayatanas) that carries on unbrokenly is what is called 'the round or rebirths' he figures that it is a lasting being that goes from this world to another world, that comes from another world to this world"endquote 117"when he is cofused about independently-arisen states, instead of taking the occurence of formations to be due to ignorance etc., he figures that it is a self that knows or does not know, that acts and causes action..." 161 "a mere state that has got its conditions ushers in the ensuing existence; While it does not migrate from the past, with no cause in the past it is not. So a mere material and immaterial state, arisen when it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of, saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is not a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither transmigrated from the past nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that"....... " 273 "Becomings wheel reveals no known beginning; no maker, no experiencer there; Void with a twelvefold voidness,"" 313 "one who sees this rightly abandons the self view by understanding the absence of a maker. One who sees it wrongly clings to the moral -inefficacy of action view because he does not perceive that the causative function of ignorance etc us established as a law.." 314 "[and so] let a wise man with mindfulness so practice that he may begin to find a footing in the deeps of the dependent origination" Now another point about the book. On page 62 Venerable Buddhadasa says that by explaining Paticcasamuppada as happening over several lives and suggesting that "kamma in this life gives rise to results in some far off future life it as if there are no kammic results(vipaka) at all which we receive in the birth in which the deed was done.....to suggest that defilements and kamma from a past life become effective in this, a later life, is impossible"" Firstly, I'd like to say that truly there is no one who receives results but that results arise by conditions (just to be pedantic). From the Visuddhimagga 172"Experiencer is a convention for mere arising of fruit (vipaka);" Secondly he doesn't acknowledge that the commentaries (and tipitaka) say that the results of kamma can indeed arise in this life,..(or at the time of death or in future lives). They say it is pretty much unpredictable (except to the Buddha) when the results will arise because of the many other conditions that support or impede kamma. Here is a quote from the Tipitaka: " Threefold, however, is the fruit of karma: ripening during the life-time (dittha-dhamma-vedaníya-kamma), ripening in the next birth (upapajja-vedaníya-kamma), ripening in later births (aparápariya-vedaníya kamma) ...." (A.VI, 63). I can add more if you like, Christine. Anyway I think venerable Buddhadasa's belief that the ancient commentaries and Buddhaghosa believed in a soul that transmigrates is quite mistaken. To me the whole of the Abhidhamma - and much of the commentaries- is pointing to the anattaness (no selfness, no soul anywhere) of each moment. It is so real and helpful. I was explaining to a friend who had some worries today. I said if one can start- just a little - to see the difference between the 6 doors then life becomes more understandable and handleable. You see it is always the thinking that causes our upsets. What appears through the senses is merely different objects. Yesterday I got tax bill out the blue for an apartment I own. I thought I was exempt because I live in another country but apparently not. I have to pay about 5000 dollars. It took me back for about a minute - until I saw that it was only thinking that was causing the pain. All that had happened was that seeing had arisen based on visble object and eyebase- and then concepts about what was seen , and then papanca that conditioned aversion. Seeing this meant the aversion and thinking about it dropped away. No need to try to surpress the thinking, but by understanding there weren't anymore conditions for clinging to these concepts. This is basic Abhidhamma. RobertK 20824 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: Kamma and rebirth Hi Dave, I still owe you more on Dependent Origination, but I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. There is an excellent book, "Dying to Live - The Role of Kamma in Dying and Rebirth" by Aggacitta Bhikkhu. http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/dying2live.htm If you download my class notes from the files section of this DSG, you will find a summary of this book on pages 49-58. I will attempt to supplement Christine's answers to your specific questions in a few hours. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > Everyone, > > I have been doing some more reading and have gotten myself confused > again! Specifically, I was reading about Kamma and rebirth. I have > 2 questions, one philisophical, the other more theoretical. > > 1.) If we are to say that one's situation in the present is dictated > by Kamma seeds laid in the past, then do we say that people in > essence "deserve" the plight they are in? So, for example, we could > say that the Iraqi children who might be currently suffering are in > that situation because of bad Kamma they acquired in the past. > > 2.) It seems to me that Kamma/Rebirth would lead us into some form of > predestination. If my next birth and life are dictated by my actions > in this one (and others), then would there not have to be some > knowledge of how that new life will shape out. As another example; a > very good friend of mine lost his wife last year to Mennengitis. > Now, her death caused great suffering to him, his children, and her > family. If we were to say that her parent's grief of watching their > daughter die was due to their Kamma from the past, then how did the > Universe know that that child would grow up and get a disease in her > late 20's? It just seems that if we are to be suffering consequences > of past actions, then the order to things must be very precise (or > pre-determined). > > I hope my questions make sense. And, as always, I appreciate > everyone's insights and wisdom (and patience) with my questions! I > do learn a lot from you all. I am so glad I found this group! > > Peace, > > > Dave 20825 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 5:05pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and practice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, Hi Sarah, Actually, I am not much in the mood right now to respond to this post, but I feel I must. I don't want to leave anything or anyone hanging. First, about your comment: "Anyway, as you're the first to appreciate, life is full of misfortunes!" I don't know if I am the first to appreciate this, but maybe I am the first to appreciate something different. Just as it is important to accept the reality of misfortune, it is also important to accept the need of those involved in such things to receive comfort and validation. I don't think I approve of the advice of some to minimize these events and think of something different to `block it out'. While that may be good advice for some, like those fixated on their misfortune, it isn't good advice for everyone or the majority. Some people need straightforward comfort, understanding, and compassion. My heart feels for your deep loss and situation and I don't believe you or anyone else should minimize it. As far as the rest of your post, I am thankful that Howard answered the majority of it. I really don't feel up to it (My cold has come back again with a vengeance…which is unusual and telling…and, for those who are wondering, no I am not HIV positive). I stress meditation so much in this group because I feel that I need to. Actually, in meditation discussion groups, I usually emphasize that meditation isn't everything…until they get fed up with me and kick me out. ;-) I think I see that the Abhidhamma without meditation results in conceit, but meditation without right view and understanding results in mental disorder. If it is any consolation, I find this group closer to the dhamma than any I have found, as I have posted many times to this group, but maybe I try to hard to interfere in karma??? I don't know. I am too tired to figure it out right now. Take care and keep yourself well. Love, James 20826 From: Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object Hi Jon, You are right that the 5-door process is specifically mentioned, but I would interpret this passage differently. Here's the passage: "Here, under all circumstances, when an object is undesirable, the fivefold sense consciousness, reception, investigation, and registration (that arise) are unwholesome-resultants..." L: I would contend that "object", in this case, is a mix of 5-door objects (plural) and concept. This is the nature of the vast majority of objects the average person experiences, plus the desirability of an object is a consensus value, "distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials...etc." Accountants and government officials don't usually tally up their fate (vipaka) according to the crispness and pleasant color characteristics of their dollar bills. Another issue might be that perhaps you are saying concept cannot be vipaka. I couldn't find a textual answer to this. What does Nina say??? Larry 20827 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 6:08pm Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Robert, > > This was a really outstanding post--I keep coming back to it. Not only a > good refutation of Ven. Buddhadassa's accusations but more--very useful for > investigating the riddle of kamma and rebirth. Difficult to get all this > down and keep it straight (for me anyway). > > mike Dear Mike, Thanks Mike. I'd be happy to discuss further any points about dependent origination, kamma and anatta. Robk > > ----- 20828 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 7:39pm Subject: Re: Kamma and rebirth Hi Dave, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > 1.) If we are to say that one's situation in the present is dictated > by Kamma seeds laid in the past, then do we say that people in > essence "deserve" the plight they are in? So, for example, we could > say that the Iraqi children who might be currently suffering are in > that situation because of bad Kamma they acquired in the past. ===== I note that you put the word "deserve" in quotation marks. As Christine points out, kamma is a "natural law" (like gravity). A seed meets the right conditions for it to mature into a plant. From this plant, another seed is produced which (when conditions are right) matures into a second plant. The second plant is not the same as the first plant, but nor is it totally different. In this analogy, there is no self, there is no soul, but there is "life" and because of laws of nature, plant life is continued. With a plant, we are talking about physical life; but consider it as an analogy to "mental life". Our stream of consciousness is impacted by conditions and responds according to laws of nature (kamma). Just as with physcial life, when considering a stream of consciousness, we can say that there is no self, there is no soul, but there is "life" and because of laws of nature, the stream of consciouness is continued. Hope this helps! ===== > 2.) It seems to me that Kamma/Rebirth would lead us into some form of > predestination. If my next birth and life are dictated by my actions > in this one (and others), then would there not have to be some > knowledge of how that new life will shape out. ===== It is something like predestination, except that it cannot be foretold with any precision (except by a Buddha). Your current situation is largely a result of kamma, though there are other laws of nature (seasons, etc.) which can also be factors. How you react to your current situation is a function of your habits. Many people think that there is "free will". This is an illusion. We do not "choose" to be restless, we do not "choose" to be confused, we do not "choose" to be angry (knowing that anger is one letter away from danger). If there is no "self", what is it that has "free will"? What is it that "chooses", if there is no "self"? So what happens to us comes from our past kamma. How we react is based on our habits (accumulations). The willed action resulting from our reaction creates new kamma. Perhaps a diagram might help. Past action -1-> current situation -2-> new action -3-> new situation -1-> : kamma is a condition for the current situation to arise -2-> : accumulations are a condition for the new action to arise -3-> : kamma (new + old) is a condition for the new situation to arise Each second, we experience millions of thoughts and each thought creates "kammic seeds" which have the potential to mature at a later time. The surrounding conditions determine which of the kammic seeds surrounding me at this moment will mature; but the nature of what matures is based on the nature of the maturing kammic seed. ===== > As another example; a > very good friend of mine lost his wife last year to Mennengitis. > Now, her death caused great suffering to him, his children, and her > family. If we were to say that her parent's grief of watching their > daughter die was due to their Kamma from the past, then how did the > Universe know that that child would grow up and get a disease in her > late 20's? It just seems that if we are to be suffering consequences > of past actions, then the order to things must be very precise (or > pre-determined). ===== Even the week-old baby in Christine's post has uncountable kammic seeds waiting for the appropriate conditions to arise. Your friend, his wife, the children and the parents all had countless kammic seeds waiting for the conditions to arise for them to mature. As Christine pointed out, one must consider the big picture (this is one of counteless existences). Sorry for cutting this short, but gotta run for a meeting! Metta, Rob M :-) 20829 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi James, Many thanks for your concern - much appreciated and I’m sorry to hear your nasty cold has returned. I do hope you get well soon. Each day here we go into a stage of higher alert as the latest figures are released. Many of my friends have put themselves under voluntary ‘house arrest’ and I now avoid public transport, indoor restaurants, shops (having stockpiled on basics), close contact with anyone except Jon and so on. I also wear a mask in lifts and lobbies, such as everytime I go in or out of my building. No way of blocking out or minimizing, but I think the point was that the unnecessary thinking, proliferations with anxiety and fear are useless and that there are still only the present moment realities to be known at these times. When one’s sick it’s the same - there is the physical discomfort, but don’t the stories about the discomfort make it so much worse? On the other hand when one reflects on dhamma, one may forget about the discomfort completely for a while. I remember Dan was very sick with pneumonia for a long while, but he said at the time (hope I've got it more or less right, Dan;-)), reflecting on dhamma and being confident that awareness can arise at anytime -- even whilst sick in bed -- was very reassuring. If one feels there cannot be any 'practice' at these times, it's a problem. Just a little more: --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Just as it is > important to accept the reality of misfortune, it is also important > to accept the need of those involved in such things to receive > comfort and validation. I don't think I approve of the advice of > some to minimize these events and think of something different > to `block it out'. While that may be good advice for some, like > those fixated on their misfortune, it isn't good advice for everyone > or the majority. Some people need straightforward comfort, > understanding, and compassion. ..... I do understand what you’re saying here. Before the school closures, my students and I were having helpful discussions about the War and the atypical pneumonia (latest name) and I agree it can be helpful for everyone to discuss ideas, clarify points and so on. It’s important for children to be able to express their fears and worries too. ..... >My heart feels for your deep loss > and situation and I don't believe you or anyone else should minimize > it. ..... We’ve actually been very tired recently as this came straight on after Jon’s last trip to his mother’s funeral and he, in particular, has been working hard since, whilst having to put all these extra precautions and spy-like diversions in normal routine into place. So we’re trying to get extra rest as a precaution. ..... > > As far as the rest of your post, I am thankful that Howard answered > the majority of it. ..... I’ll try to discuss it further with Howard and you can lie back and enjoy or cheer him on;-) ..... > I stress > meditation so much in this group because I feel that I need to. > Actually, in meditation discussion groups, I usually emphasize that > meditation isn't everything…until they get fed up with me and kick > me out. ;-) ..... I suspected as much (not the kicking you out but the emphasizing ‘meditation isn’t everything’ to others) ;-) ..... >I think I see that the Abhidhamma without meditation > results in conceit, but meditation without right view and > understanding results in mental disorder. If it is any consolation, > I find this group closer to the dhamma than any I have found, as I > have posted many times to this group, but maybe I try to hard to > interfere in karma??? ..... It’s a great consolation, James. I mentioned to a friend that though you may often seem to disagree with some of us, I know you appreciate the friendships here and we do with you too. As for the ‘interfering in karma’, I think that regardless of any of our understandings of the dhamma, the best we can all do is to try to help each other accordingly, to share what we know or understand, be mindful of our intentions (e.g metta/kindness vs attachment to others seeing things our way;-)), and considerate of different viewpoints and shortcomings. We all have plenty to learn. .... >I don't know. I am too tired to figure it > out right now. Take care and keep yourself well. ..... You too, James. Persistent colds are no fun at all. Fortunately we’re both well and healthy right now at any rate. Very best wishes and thank you again for the sympathy which I’ll also pass on to any of the Starkids I speak to. (Some may have even left Hong Kong for all I know). Metta, Sarah ======= 20830 From: Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination for Laymen (Part I) Hi Sarah, I like this little book too (Nyanatiloka's "Guide Through the Abhidhamma Pitaka"). It gives a peek at each book of the abhidhamma and the essay on paticcasamuppada gives a succinct analysis of dependent arising with all the conditions for the arising of each link. I had bought it years ago and, at the time, couldn't make heads or tails of it. I had forgotten that I had it until a note in the Buddhist Dict. reminded me. To my surprise, it started to make sense :-))) Larry 20831 From: Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and rebirth Hi, Rob - In a message dated 3/31/03 10:45:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Many people think that there is "free will". This is an illusion. We > do not "choose" to be restless, we do not "choose" to be confused, > we do not "choose" to be angry (knowing that anger is one letter > away from danger). ========================== What you say here is quite true if the "we" you speak of is taken literally. But if using "we" is understood to be just convention, then it is not quite so true. Do we ever choose to calm ourselves? Do we ever choose to let our anger go?Do we ever choose to pay attention? I say "yes" to all of these! (In fact, the "we" business is just "so to speak" stuff, but the choosing is a reality.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20832 From: robmoult Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 9:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kamma and rebirth Hi Howard, I am going to repeat one of my favourite quotes: Words are one kind of bridge to one level of understanding. On the Path, when you reach each such level, you leave each bridge behind. But you can't leave your bridge behind until you are beyond it. This applies to words and concepts, but I suspect that it also applies to the concept of free-will. Early in the journey, we need to feel that there is an "I" making progress, an "I" taking initiative, an "I" making a choice to improve. Later the realization arises that there can be progress, there can be initiative, there can be choice and there can be improvement without an "I". Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 3/31/03 10:45:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > Many people think that there is "free will". This is an illusion. We > > do not "choose" to be restless, we do not "choose" to be confused, > > we do not "choose" to be angry (knowing that anger is one letter > > away from danger). > ========================== > What you say here is quite true if the "we" you speak of is taken > literally. But if using "we" is understood to be just convention, then it is > not quite so true. Do we ever choose to calm ourselves? Do we ever choose to > let our anger go?Do we ever choose to pay attention? I say "yes" to all of > these! (In fact, the "we" business is just "so to speak" stuff, but the > choosing is a reality.) > > With metta, > Howard > 20833 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 10:43pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa / A. Sujin Dear Nina, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 9:05 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa > > > Dear Kom, > > get caught, don't we? How > grateful I am to A. Sujin to remind us time and > again. Even when someone has > reached stages of insight, there are still the > imperfections of insight. > Among them clinging. She makes us see how > stubborn such clinging is and how > subtle it can be. > We were also reminded by A. Sujin that this is > the second noble truth: > clinging. This is not at all some abstract notion > we have to learn from a 2> book. Here is the second noble truth, but we do > not notice it. It leads us > astray, away from the end of the cycle of birth > and death, from dukkha. My favorite (from A. Sujin), for which I am very grateful, is, what do we study dhamma for? To understand realities, at the current moment. To start letting go of ignorance. Whenever I study to know more than other people, I am reminded of this teaching. Whenever I study as if this is an academic study, I am reminded of this teaching. Whenever I try to finish a lot of stories just for the sake of finishing a book, I am reminded of this teaching. This teaching can be understood at other levels too. Whenever there is the wrong (crooked) mindfulness, are we attempting to have mindfulness just for the sake of mindfulness, or for the sake of being one who develops mindfulness? Do we so much desire to have more and more understanding? This is not the purpose, this is not the path, but it is, like you said, samudaya, bondage to samsara, dhamma that slows the development, dhamma that blocks the development, dhamma that entangles. The understanding is the path, and that is what we should develop. kom 20834 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:19pm Subject: Re: Correction: Re: [dsg] Re: A bit of a rave (was: Arahants) Hi KKT, --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > KKT: So the person to whom > you put the question is > Krishnamurti and not Munindra? ..... Yes, correct ..... > There might be another > correction in your post: > > << > I'm afraid I really know very little about Guru Nanak > but I believe that any teacher with influence who discourages > exploration of truth rather than following a fixed activity > is worthy of respect as well. > >> > > I think it should be > << encourages >> rather > than << discourages >> ? ..... thank you, yes - yours is correct, I've really been caught speeding too! Whilst chatting, there are a couple of your posts I've appreciated a lot - firstly your one to StarKid Ki Young and secondly your recent one to Victor (20777) which I thought was very well-written and I agreed with your conclusions here (even if Victor didn't;-)): ..... KKT: “The experience of no-self is a << real >> experience. It is the experience of liberation. It is not the result of just << seeing >> or of mere intellectual reasoning with concept. Otherwise Arahathood would be easy to achieve, would it not?” ***** Thx again, KKT and also for reading more posts more carefully than I do;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 20835 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:36pm Subject: Re: Kamma and rebirth --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I am going to repeat one of my favourite quotes: Hi Rob M, I don't see how this post is a response to what Howard had to say. Yes, volition (free will) is non-self, it doesn't belong to us, just as body, feelings, perception, and consciousness, etc. don't belong to us. This is what the Buddha taught. But he didn't teach that it doesn't exist or that it is illusion. Volition is a feature of being human that we all have. It isn't an illusion (at least the way you are referring to it.) The only illusion is that we create the idea of a permanent self through that volition…as well as through the body, feelings, etc. With the volition that we all have we can choose to follow the eightfold path. That will be laying the groundwork for enlightenment and if we didn't have volition, enlightenment wouldn't be impossible (we might as well be rocks or clouds). However, final enlightenment cannot come through volition…we cannot choose to become enlightened. It is only by dropping attachment to volition, by seeing that it is non-self, that enlightenment is possible. I don't think that denying the existence of volition is going to stop attachment to it. At least the Buddha didn't teach that...but maybe that works for you. I think that most people have to really acknowledge and understand that there are choices being made, but there is no self making them. Just my input. Metta, James 20836 From: smallchap Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 0:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Dear Nana, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Even when someone has > reached stages of insight, there are still the imperfections of insight. > Among them clinging. Clinging is present even for one who has attained the 3rd stage of enlightenment, Anagami. smallchap 20837 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi Howard, Thanks for your comments. I may sound like a stuck record here - no surprises;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Just a comment (and small idea) with respect to this issue. I > don't > think that it is exactly so that awakening can occur only *during* > vipassana > practice, but I do think that deep and sharp meditation is important. ..... Let me just butt in here to say that ‘vipassana practice’ and ‘meditation’ are loaded terms. with all due respect, there is a question about whether the way they are used freely in meditation centres is related to how they are used in the texts. ..... > Deep > meditation, with the mind highly focussed is a cultivating activity, one > among several cultivation activities taught by the Buddha. ..... I think this is similar to a point Swee Boon has made recently. Highly focussed meditation is common to many practices and religions. Unless we are talking about the specific development of kusala, particularly satipatthana, then I don’t understand it as being taught by the Buddha. ..... [Others > include, > for example, observing sila, thereby calming the mind by faultless > action (or > as close as one can approximate that), and also guarding the senses.] It > is > like preparing a field for planting. ..... Nina translated some of the text and commentary of D16 recently regarding sila, samadhi and panna: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m16611.html In conclusion, she wrote: Nina: “As we have seen sila includes much more than just the precepts. This whole text pertains to the person who is going to be an arahat, he eradicates all defilements. Thus, there must be vipassana from the beginning to the end, all along, also when he observes the four purities of sila, also when he is concentrated. Concentration is accompanying lokuttara citta as we see. This concentration can be of jhana, or not, depending on the person's accumulations. This does not mean that I understand this text completely. As I see it, this pertains to the arahat and the Buddha did not tell us beginners: first keep the precepts, then apply concentration, then vipassana.” ***** In other words, we have different ideas about preparing the field and tilling it for planting perhaps. Can there really be any guarding of the senses without panna I wonder? If there is no understanding at any level of the distinctions between seeing, visible object, attachment and thinking, can there even be intellectual understanding of what it means at all? ..... >The seed can then be dropped into > the > soil at any time, not necessarily while tilling the field. I'm also > reminded > of slowly chilling a solution to a critical point - then the slightest > vibration could change its state to ice. I think about the followers of > the > Buddha who became enlightened when hearing a teaching from the Buddha - > their > minds had already been cultivated. ..... However, there must be the right cause to bring the right result at that critical point. As I understand, the tilling of the field or the highly developed wisdom which makes it possible for just a few words to condition enlightenment does not refer to a highly ‘focussed’ mind or ‘sharp meditation’ without a very precise clear comprehension and direct insight into namas and rupas, their conditioned nature, the arising and passing away of these same namas and rupas and so on. Clear comprehension or panna is quite different from what I understand by ‘focussed’ and may arise at anytime, such as when one is weak and faint with pneumonia. Any moment of satipatthana is a moment of tilling the field as I see it. ..... >All that was further needed was what > the > Zen folks call a "turning word". Another thought that comes to mind are > all > the Zen stories of a person becoming enlightened to some degree or other > at > the sound of a pebble sharply striking a bamboo tree. In each case, it > is the > straw that broke the camel's back after that camel had carried heavy > loads > for many trips. ..... I know what you’re saying and we agree about the importance of the foundation or well-cultivated field for highly developed wisdom or enlightenment to occur. ..... > Just as an aside, my own history includes two "enlightenment > experiences" [I'm *not* claiming to be enlightened! ;-))], neither of > which > occurrred *while* meditating. But each occurred at a time at which I > *had* > been engaged in a period of regular and intensive formal meditation. ..... If there is any wisdom or insight now, at this moment, the conditions must have been the wisdom or insight in the past at whatever level. However what has occurred before is gone and not of any significance. We can speculate that it must have been the formal meditation, the reading of a sutta, the talk we heard and so on, but really just as it is the accumulted right understanding at this moment (if it arises) that will condition more in the future, so it was the understanding in the past, regardless of the activity, that conditioned the present insight. Others may follow the same pattern of behaviour as you and have no ‘enlightenment experience’. (btw, I’ll leave aside how one can have an ‘enlightenment experience’ without being enlightened;-)) Whilst at a retreat, there are so many, many different phenomena arising, just like now. Some are kusala and some are akusala. I don’t understand moments of ‘focussing’ or concentrating on sensations to be inherently kusala or related to Vipassana development or insight as taught by the Buddha. This doesn’t mean it doesn’t have other benefits, just as the Tai chi we do or yoga may have great benefits. So I would never encourage anyone to NOT follow the practice, but I do encourage consideration of the meaning of vipassana and bhavana (mental development) in the Buddha’s Teachings, so that there is confidence that any moment at all there can be right practice. Metta, Sarah ====== 20838 From: robmoult Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 0:56am Subject: Re: Kamma and rebirth Hi James, We haven't chatted in a while! I've missed it. Here is the exchange between Howard and I: Rob: > Many people think that there is "free will". This is an illusion. We > do not "choose" to be restless, we do not "choose" to be confused, > we do not "choose" to be angry (knowing that anger is one letter > away from danger). Howard: What you say here is quite true if the "we" you speak of is taken literally. But if using "we" is understood to be just convention, then it is not quite so true. Do we ever choose to calm ourselves? Do we ever choose to let our anger go?Do we ever choose to pay attention? I say "yes" to all of these! (In fact, the "we" business is just "so to speak" stuff, but the choosing is a reality.) James, Howard's comments were interpreted as meaning that in the ultimate sense, there is no "we", but in conventional usage, it is very useful to use "we" as a concept. This is what prompted (conditioned? :-) ) the reply. That concept prompted the memory of a similar quotation regarding "words and concepts" being a useful tool in the conventional sense, but something that had to be left behind at some point. Howard, sorry if your message was misinterpreted. James, you made some interesting comments below that deserve a reply: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > > > I am going to repeat one of my favourite quotes: > > > Hi Rob M, > > I don't see how this post is a response to what Howard had to say. > Yes, volition (free will) is non-self, it doesn't belong to us, just > as body, feelings, perception, and consciousness, etc. don't belong > to us. This is what the Buddha taught. But he didn't teach that it > doesn't exist or that it is illusion. ===== Interesting that you equate "free will" and "volition". I certainly agree with you that "volition" is real (even without a self). ===== > > Volition is a feature of being human that we all have. It isn't an > illusion (at least the way you are referring to it.) The only > illusion is that we create the idea of a permanent self through that > volition…as well as through the body, feelings, etc. With the > volition that we all have we can choose to follow the eightfold > path. That will be laying the groundwork for enlightenment and if > we didn't have volition, enlightenment wouldn't be impossible (we > might as well be rocks or clouds). However, final enlightenment > cannot come through volition…we cannot choose to become > enlightened. It is only by dropping attachment to volition, by > seeing that it is non-self, that enlightenment is possible. > > I don't think that denying the existence of volition is going to > stop attachment to it. At least the Buddha didn't teach that...but > maybe that works for you. I think that most people have to really > acknowledge and understand that there are choices being made, but > there is no self making them. Just my input. ===== Well said! I agree 100% with what you have said about volition. I guess my point is that there is will (volition), but it is not "free"; there is no "chooser" to make the will "free", the will is a natural conditioned response. Metta, Rob M :-) 20839 From: m. nease Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 5:13am Subject: My Friends Dear Friends, Maybe I'm a bit paranoid, but am presently experiencing very unusual interruptions etc. in my internet connection. If you receive this, it may be our last communication in some time, due, perhaps, to considerations of 'security' in my country. Best Wishes, mike 20840 From: Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/1/03 3:36:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for your comments. I may sound like a stuck record here - no > surprises;-) > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Just a comment (and small idea) with respect to this issue. I > >don't > >think that it is exactly so that awakening can occur only *during* > >vipassana > >practice, but I do think that deep and sharp meditation is important. > ..... > Let me just butt in here to say that ‘vipassana practice’ and ‘meditation’ > > are loaded terms. with all due respect, there is a question about whether > the way they are used freely in meditation centres is related to how they > are used in the texts. > ..... > >Deep > >meditation, with the mind highly focussed is a cultivating activity, one > >among several cultivation activities taught by the Buddha. > ..... > I think this is similar to a point Swee Boon has made recently. Highly > focussed meditation is common to many practices and religions. Unless we > are talking about the specific development of kusala, particularly > satipatthana, then I don’t understand it as being taught by the Buddha. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I largely agree with you here. The Buddha *did* teach the then-classical samatha meditation techniques for mastering the jhanas - in fact, urging his followers again and again towards that, especially in the suttas of the Majjhima Nikaya, doing so to train/cultivate the mind and to provide a haven for "here and now", but that was not the core of his meditational teaching. The core was the meditation taught in the Satipatthana Sutta (which includes both formalized and moment-to-moment practice) and in the Anapanasati Sutta, which constituted characteristically "Buddhist" meditation. But a mind trained well by the classical absorptive meditation was more effective, and more quickly so, at the vipassana techniques than a mind not so trained. Of this I am certain. The Buddha's mind was one so trained. In fact, he achieved his final awakening while "in" the 4th jhana. ----------------------------------------------------- > ..... > [Others > >include, > >for example, observing sila, thereby calming the mind by faultless > >action (or > >as close as one can approximate that), and also guarding the senses.] It > >is > >like preparing a field for planting. > ..... > Nina translated some of the text and commentary of D16 recently regarding > sila, samadhi and panna: > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m16611.html > > In conclusion, she wrote: > > Nina: “As we have seen sila includes much more than just the precepts. > This whole text pertains to the person who is going to be an arahat, he > eradicates all defilements. Thus, there must be vipassana from the > beginning to the end, all along, also when he observes the four purities > of sila, also when he is concentrated. Concentration is accompanying > lokuttara citta as we see. This concentration can be of jhana, or not, > depending on the person's accumulations. This does not mean that I > understand this text completely. As I see it, this pertains to the arahat > and the Buddha did not tell us > beginners: first keep the precepts, then apply concentration, then > vipassana.â€? > ***** > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly practicing "in tandem" is one way to go. I personally favor that approach. ----------------------------------------------------------- > In other words, we have different ideas about preparing the field and > tilling it for planting perhaps. Can there really be any guarding of the > senses without panna I wonder? > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Chicken and egg, Sarah. We begin where we are. Then spiral development proceeds. (I agree that if there were no insight at all to begin with, then certainly there would be no beginning of practice at all.) ---------------------------------------------------------- If there is no understanding at any level> > of the distinctions between seeing, visible object, attachment and > thinking, can there even be intellectual understanding of what it means at > all? > ..... > >The seed can then be dropped into > >the > >soil at any time, not necessarily while tilling the field. I'm also > >reminded > >of slowly chilling a solution to a critical point - then the slightest > >vibration could change its state to ice. I think about the followers of > >the > >Buddha who became enlightened when hearing a teaching from the Buddha - > >their > >minds had already been cultivated. > ..... > However, there must be the right cause to bring the right result at that > critical point. As I understand, the tilling of the field or the highly > developed wisdom which makes it possible for just a few words to condition > enlightenment does not refer to a highly ‘focussed’ mind or ‘sharp > meditation’ without a very precise clear comprehension and direct insight > into namas and rupas, their conditioned nature, the arising and passing > away of these same namas and rupas and so on. Clear comprehension or panna > is quite different from what I understand by ‘focussed’ and may arise at > anytime, such as when one is weak and faint with pneumonia. > > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course they are not the same. ----------------------------------------------------- Any moment of> > satipatthana is a moment of tilling the field as I see it. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly! As I see it as well. ---------------------------------------------------- > ..... > >All that was further needed was what > >the > >Zen folks call a "turning word". Another thought that comes to mind are > >all > >the Zen stories of a person becoming enlightened to some degree or other > >at > >the sound of a pebble sharply striking a bamboo tree. In each case, it > >is the > >straw that broke the camel's back after that camel had carried heavy > >loads > >for many trips. > ..... > I know what you’re saying and we agree about the importance of the > foundation or well-cultivated field for highly developed wisdom or > enlightenment to occur. > ..... > > Just as an aside, my own history includes two "enlightenment > >experiences" [I'm *not* claiming to be enlightened! ;-))], neither of > >which > >occurrred *while* meditating. But each occurred at a time at which I > >*had* > >been engaged in a period of regular and intensive formal meditation. > ..... > If there is any wisdom or insight now, at this moment, the conditions must > have been the wisdom or insight in the past at whatever level. However > what has occurred before is gone and not of any significance. We can > speculate that it must have been the formal meditation, the reading of a > sutta, the talk we heard and so on, but really just as it is the > accumulted right understanding at this moment (if it arises) that will > condition more in the future, so it was the understanding in the past, > regardless of the activity, that conditioned the present insight. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We all have *some* insight. That's the starting point. We cannot wait for transcendent wisdom to somehow arise before starting, else we are done for! For sure intellectual understanding of the Dhamma by itself has never led to awakening. The Buddha gave a prescriptive training program. I absolutely do not accept the claim made by several folks on DSG that the Buddha's teaching was purely descriptive. ---------------------------------------------------------- Others > may follow the same pattern of behaviour as you and have no ‘ > enlightenment > experience’. (btw, I’ll leave aside how one can have an ‘enlightenment > experience’ without being enlightened;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It's just a term, Sarah - 'enlightenment experience' is just a term. So call it an "insight experience" - or call it nothing at all. Whatever it was, it was significant in my life - immensely helpful. As far as the same actions leading to different effects in different people, well, of course, those people have different histories. But kusala actions will bear kusala fruit, if not now and not in a particular way, then later and in a different way. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Whilst at a retreat, there are so many, many different phenomena arising, > just like now. Some are kusala and some are akusala. I don’t understand > moments of ‘focussing’ or concentrating on sensations to be inherently > kusala or related to Vipassana development or insight as taught by the > Buddha. This doesn’t mean it doesn’t have other benefits, just as the Tai > chi we do or yoga may have great benefits. So I would never encourage > anyone to NOT follow the practice, but I do encourage consideration of the > meaning of vipassana and bhavana (mental development) in the Buddha’s > Teachings, so that there is confidence that any moment at all there can be > right practice. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I *have* considered "the meaning of vipassana and bhavana (mental development) in the Buddha’s Teachings", and I've observed among other things that the Buddha made much of samatha bhavana. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20841 From: Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and rebirth Hi, Rob (and James) - In a message dated 4/1/03 4:04:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi James, > > We haven't chatted in a while! I've missed it. > > Here is the exchange between Howard and I: > > Rob: > >Many people think that there is "free will". This is an illusion. > We > >do not "choose" to be restless, we do not "choose" to be confused, > >we do not "choose" to be angry (knowing that anger is one letter > >away from danger). > > Howard: > What you say here is quite true if the "we" you speak of is taken > literally. But if using "we" is understood to be just convention, > then it is not quite so true. Do we ever choose to calm ourselves? > Do we ever choose to let our anger go?Do we ever choose to pay > attention? I say "yes" to all of these! (In fact, the "we" business > is just "so to speak" stuff, but the choosing is a reality.) > > > James, Howard's comments were interpreted as meaning that in the > ultimate sense, there is no "we", but in conventional usage, it is > very useful to use "we" as a concept. This is what prompted > (conditioned? :-) ) the reply. That concept prompted the memory of a > similar quotation regarding "words and concepts" being a useful tool > in the conventional sense, but something that had to be left behind > at some point. > > Howard, sorry if your message was misinterpreted. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you understood me correctly. Actually I didn't take your reply as one of disagreement. (Perhaps *I* have misunderstood! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- > > > James, you made some interesting comments below that deserve a reply: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > > >wrote: > >>Hi Howard, > >> > >>I am going to repeat one of my favourite quotes: > > > > > >Hi Rob M, > > > >I don't see how this post is a response to what Howard had to > say. > >Yes, volition (free will) is non-self, it doesn't belong to us, > just > >as body, feelings, perception, and consciousness, etc. don't > belong > >to us. This is what the Buddha taught. But he didn't teach that > it > >doesn't exist or that it is illusion. > > ===== > > Interesting that you equate "free will" and "volition". I certainly > agree with you that "volition" is real (even without a self). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I don't much like the term 'free will'. It is suggestive of a willing that is unconditioned. I don't believe in that. There *is* volition, but it is one among a multitude of conditioned phenomena. --------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > > > >Volition is a feature of being human that we all have. It isn't > an > >illusion (at least the way you are referring to it.) The only > >illusion is that we create the idea of a permanent self through > that > >volition…as well as through the body, feelings, etc. With the > >volition that we all have we can choose to follow the eightfold > >path. That will be laying the groundwork for enlightenment and if > >we didn't have volition, enlightenment wouldn't be impossible (we > >might as well be rocks or clouds). However, final enlightenment > >cannot come through volition…we cannot choose to become > >enlightened. It is only by dropping attachment to volition, by > >seeing that it is non-self, that enlightenment is possible. > > > >I don't think that denying the existence of volition is going to > >stop attachment to it. At least the Buddha didn't teach > that...but > >maybe that works for you. I think that most people have to really > >acknowledge and understand that there are choices being made, but > >there is no self making them. Just my input. > > ===== > > Well said! I agree 100% with what you have said about volition. I > guess my point is that there is will (volition), but it is > not "free"; there is no "chooser" to make the will "free", the will > is a natural conditioned response. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I suspect that al three of us are in agreement on this. But some folks somehow take this to mean that there is no willing, that choices cannot be made, and that "whatever happens, happens". That is an extreme position leading to inaction and hopelessness as I see it. There are several kinds of errors involving willing as I see it. One of these is that willing is, if not inexistent, then at least irrelevant. Another is that willing is the action of a self. A third is that willing is "spontaneous" and unconditioned. ------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20842 From: Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 1:05am Subject: Re: My Friends Hi, Mike - In a message dated 4/1/03 8:17:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@z... writes: > Dear Friends, > > Maybe I'm a bit paranoid, but am presently experiencing very unusual > interruptions etc. in my internet connection. If you receive this, it may > be our last communication in some time, due, perhaps, to considerations of > 'security' in my country. > > Best Wishes, > > mike > ============================ I don't know what is happening with your internet service, but if I were you, unless I knew something specific to the contrary, I would presume that the problem is the sort of thing that happens to every internet user from time to time, and not something sinister. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20843 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 6:58am Subject: Re: Kamma and rebirth --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and James) - > > In a message dated 4/1/03 4:04:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... > writes: > > > > > Hi James, > > > > We haven't chatted in a while! I've missed it. Hi Rob (and Howard), I didn't say that you misunderstood; I said that you didn't answer; in other words you changed the subject (which I don't think was intentional)…and I thought it was an important subject to pursue further. Not only that, the conversation was entirely in my language; which prompted my rare participation ;-). But I see now, from Howard's post, that it was an inside conversation of an intellectual nature…and, dang, just when I understood it! ;-). I offer my apologies to you both for jumping in. I believe that you are looking at the term `Free Will' with a lot of connotative knowledge of various philosophies and schools of thought (which I might recommend studying the Islamic approach to this subject for something truly interesting); however, I am taking a more `brown bag' approach. Nothing fancy, just general usage of the term. I really don't want to discuss if `Free Will' exists or not, that becomes highly ideological in my eyes and doesn't lead to the cessation of suffering. Guess I should have stayed out of this conversation. Being sick, I was oblivious to the subtleties. Take care and carry on ;-). Metta, James 20844 From: Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kamma and rebirth Hi, James (and Rob) - In a message dated 4/1/03 10:24:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Rob (and Howard), > > I didn't say that you misunderstood; I said that you didn't answer; > in other words you changed the subject (which I don't think was > intentional)…and I thought it was an important subject to pursue > further. Not only that, the conversation was entirely in my > language; which prompted my rare participation ;-). But I see now, > from Howard's post, that it was an inside conversation of an > intellectual nature…and, dang, just when I understood it! ;-). I > offer my apologies to you both for jumping in. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: There are no inside conversations here as far as I'm concerned, and I always welcome you participation, James, as I do yours, Rob. ---------------------------------------------- > > I believe that you are looking at the term `Free Will' with a lot of > connotative knowledge of various philosophies and schools of thought > (which I might recommend studying the Islamic approach to this > subject for something truly interesting); however, I am taking a > more `brown bag' approach. Nothing fancy, just general usage of the > term. I really don't want to discuss if `Free Will' exists or not, > that becomes highly ideological in my eyes and doesn't lead to the > cessation of suffering. Guess I should have stayed out of this > conversation. Being sick, I was oblivious to the subtleties. Take > care and carry on ;-). > > Metta, James > > =========================== With metta, Howard P.S. Feel better soon, James! /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20845 From: m. nease Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 8:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love Hi Chris, ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth > It is one thing to agree intellectually with > "So one who aspires > to be stainless & sorrowless > shouldn't make anything > in the world dear > anywhere", > but really quite scary to imagine having nothing dear anywhere - at > least, it is for me. I do know what you mean--I think. Love of family and friends, peace, freedom, truth, beauty, good etc. seem not only harmless but, for many people, the best part of life. Understanding the role of tanhaa in these pleasant (and seemingly 'good') attachments is crucial to the understanding of Buddhadhamma, in my opinion. We've been conditioned from birth (and not just in the West, I think) to think 'love=good--hate=bad'. But if translated to 'lobha=good'--'dosa=bad', it highlights the huge difference between Buddhadhamma and the way of the world, I think--even on a fairly conventional, theoretical level. > Your posts always set me thinking Mike :-) Back at you Mate--I hope that's a good thing. mike 20846 From: dwlemen Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 8:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Mike, Once again... I'm confused! (see below...) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Chris, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: christine_forsyth > > > It is one thing to agree intellectually with > > "So one who aspires > > to be stainless & sorrowless > > shouldn't make anything > > in the world dear > > anywhere", > > but really quite scary to imagine having nothing dear anywhere - at > > least, it is for me. > > I do know what you mean--I think. Love of family and friends, peace, > freedom, truth, beauty, good etc. seem not only harmless but, for many > people, the best part of life. Understanding the role of tanhaa in these > pleasant (and seemingly 'good') attachments is crucial to the understanding > of Buddhadhamma, in my opinion. We've been conditioned from birth (and not > just in the West, I think) to think 'love=good--hate=bad'. But if > translated to 'lobha=good'--'dosa=bad', it highlights the huge difference > between Buddhadhamma and the way of the world, I think--even on a fairly > conventional, theoretical level. DAVE: OK, what I don't get is your "translation." You have: 'love=good--hate=bad' --> 'lobha=good'--'dosa=bad' But, according to the "Glossary of Pali Terms" in our files section, yours can be then translated for us non-Pali-an's as: 'attachment or greed=Good'--'aversion or ill-will=Bad' So, are you then saying that Love translates to lobha which tranlates to attachement? ...OK... maybe I do get it, I just needed to type it all out first. You are saying that since love is a type of attachment, then it should not be thought of as "good" since we don't really consider any attachments good. Well, let me ask another question then, if love of family is a form of attachment, how is it that a good Buddhist should treat his spouse and children? Peace, Dave 20847 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka, "Guide Through the Abhidhamma Pitaka" Hi Larry, I also wanted to tell you I appreciated your quote. I find this small book very helpful, a kind of survey of Abhidhamma. It goes through all seven books of the Abhidhamma and it makes pleasant reading. Is it on line? Actually, in the part Points of Controversy several questions are the same as those that come up also here. Such as no 1: Is there in the absolute sense any personality to be found? Nina. op 31-03-2003 11:45 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I'm using for my source an essay on paticcasamuppada by >> Nyanatiloka in his "Guide Through the Abhidhamma Pitaka". > ..... > I liked the way you presented this very much indeed - sometimes, Larry, > you come out with just the right quotes and impress me very much with the > resources you us 20848 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma and rebirth, kammic seed. Dear Dave, Rob M and all, First something about kammic seed: > quote from Rob M: > > ....Whenever we do something, two things > >> happen; firstly, we create a kammic seed with the > potential to > >> mature in the future and secondly, we create or > reinforce a habit. I appreciate very much Rob's series about paticca samuppada, but I have some problems with the word kammic seed. I know that Rob thinks of a simile of seed and tree. But I am afraid this word could perhaps lead to confusion in this context. As soon as we open our eyes and we see, there can be a subtle clinging to visible object and to seeing, or to being alive. We want to be alive don't we? It is subtle and when it is with neutral feeling, we may not notice it. The same in the case of hearing and the other sense impressions. There are countless moments of such clinging. Our like, even subtle, is accumulated and can condition attachment again later on, by way of natural strong dependance condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya). I do see a difference between akusala citta that has not the intensity of kamma, and akusala citta that has the intensity of akusala kamma, a deed by which one harms someone else. Akusala that has the intensity of akusala kamma is also accumulated and can condition vipaka later on: kamma-condition, and when going more into details, it is also strong dependence condition. But it is still more complex, there are many different conditions. There are the latent tendencies lying dormant in each citta which can condition akusala citta. Ven Nyanaponika compares them in his Abh study to microbes. We cannot trace back how and when the latent tendencies started, ignorance is among them. We know that they condition other defilements. But perhaps we should not try to know too much how it all works. This is important: when vipassana has been developed to stages of insight we shall know more clearly what kamma and vipaka are, that we are owners of kamma. No self involved, nama is known as nama, rupa as rupa. As A. Sujin explained, no thinking about realities, about kamma and vipaka. Seeing is vipaka, but now we hardly know what nama is. Is there perhaps the kammic seed simile in the scriptures? Now Dave's questions. You have excellent questions, to the point. op 31-03-2003 20:13 schreef dwlemen op dwlemen@y...: > > 1.) If we are to say that one's situation in the present is dictated > by Kamma seeds laid in the past, then do we say that people in > essence "deserve" the plight they are in? So, for example, we could > say that the Iraqi children who might be currently suffering are in > that situation because of bad Kamma they acquired in the past. N: It is a matter of cause and result, but we all get our share, that is the consequence of being in the cycle of birth and death. At the same time, we should not try to find out too much about the past, we cannot pinpoint what happened in the past. A friend, Num, asked A. Sujin: when something happens to me I always think, what have I done. Answer: Satipatthana can help cutting everything short. What is the use asking yourselves this? It is past, what about the present object? We have to study the present object, whatever it is. It maybe pain through the bodysense: it is conditioned, not my pain. Dave: 2.) It seems to me that Kamma/Rebirth would lead us into some form of > predestination. If my next birth and life are dictated by my actions > in this one (and others), then would there not have to be some > knowledge of how that new life will shape out. As another example; a > very good friend of mine lost his wife last year to Mennengitis. > Now, her death caused great suffering to him, his children, and her > family. If we were to say that her parent's grief of watching their > daughter die was due to their Kamma from the past, then how did the > Universe know that that child would grow up and get a disease in her > late 20's? It just seems that if we are to be suffering consequences > of past actions, then the order to things must be very precise (or > pre-determined). Nina: Predestination is such a loaded term. It is all a matter of cause and result, and not very useful to think much about it. It could lead to madness. The Buddha knew perfectly and thoroughly about cause and result. We do not. When we still think in terms of I, my life, we may have such problems as fate, etc. Later on, when there is more understanding of nama and rupa, such problems are solved. And even on the level of intellectual understanding it can become clearer. You said: " her death caused great suffering to him, his children, and her family. If we were to say that her parent's grief of watching their > daughter die was due to their Kamma from the past.." No, we have to be more precise here. And we see again how the Abhidhamma can help us. The sadness is akusala citta with aversion, dosa. Very natural, we cannot help being sad and crying. But we can understand it as it is: a conditioned dhamma. Sadness is not result of kamma, it accompanies akusala citta. Seeing, hearing, etc. are results of kamma. Our thinking of what we see etc. may be akusala citta, but as I said to Rob, here I do not think of a bad action, kamma, or of kammic seed. When the Buddha speaks about akusala kamma that brings undesirable result, even an unhappy rebirth, we should know that this was not said to frighten us. It is a reminder that we should have a sense of urgency to develop the way leading out of the cycle. This sense of urgency should not cause us fear, or a thought of, "maybe I cannot make it". It evolves all according to conditions and nobody can force the growth of panna. We worry about someone else's plight, and we think of our own suffering. This is a quote I posted before, and it may be helpful to you: Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 9:16am Subject: equanimity Is it a good idea to train oneself to be equanimous in all situations (vipassana meditation)? Doesn't this take the 'spice' out of life? If a person transcends all worldly attachments, then what is beyond? 20850 From: dwlemen Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 9:31am Subject: Re: Kamma and rebirth Rob, Thanks, as always for the information. You always give me so much to thing about and to read! I have printed out the URL and the pages from the PDF from your other message and I'll try to get them read as soon as I can, but for now... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Dave, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" > wrote: > > 1.) If we are to say that one's situation in the present is > dictated > > by Kamma seeds laid in the past, then do we say that people in > > essence "deserve" the plight they are in? So, for example, we > could > > say that the Iraqi children who might be currently suffering are > in > > that situation because of bad Kamma they acquired in the past. > > ===== > > I note that you put the word "deserve" in quotation marks. As > Christine points out, kamma is a "natural law" (like gravity). > > A seed meets the right conditions for it to mature into a plant. > From this plant, another seed is produced which (when conditions are > right) matures into a second plant. The second plant is not the same > as the first plant, but nor is it totally different. In this > analogy, there is no self, there is no soul, but there is "life" and > because of laws of nature, plant life is continued. With a plant, we > are talking about physical life; but consider it as an analogy > to "mental life". Our stream of consciousness is impacted by > conditions and responds according to laws of nature (kamma). Just as > with physcial life, when considering a stream of consciousness, we > can say that there is no self, there is no soul, but there is "life" > and because of laws of nature, the stream of consciouness is > continued. > DAVE: Do you mean that our reactions to certain events that occur are dictated by our Kamma or that the actual events are Kamma? > Hope this helps! > > ===== > > > 2.) It seems to me that Kamma/Rebirth would lead us into some form > of > > predestination. If my next birth and life are dictated by my > actions > > in this one (and others), then would there not have to be some > > knowledge of how that new life will shape out. > > ===== > > It is something like predestination, except that it cannot be > foretold with any precision (except by a Buddha). Your current > situation is largely a result of kamma, though there are other laws > of nature (seasons, etc.) which can also be factors. How you react > to your current situation is a function of your habits. > DAVE: But, doesn't how I react have be be predetermined in order to account for another's Kamma consequences? So, the old lady who accidentally drives into the YMCA and kills a few kids... in order for those kids, parents, etc. to pay their Kammic price right then, that old lady HAD to be there then. Therefore, all events in her life had to have played out in their precise order to lead to that single event. But, that means that we have no control over anything. Therefore, whether I become enlightened or a criminal, is not up to me. My fate is already determined and there isn't anything I can do about it. Am I way off base here? Also, another question here... If seasons are non-Kammic, are the effects of them? If my house gets wiped out by a tornado, is that Kammic related, or just "bad luck?" > Many people think that there is "free will". This is an illusion. We > do not "choose" to be restless, we do not "choose" to be confused, > we do not "choose" to be angry (knowing that anger is one letter > away from danger). If there is no "self", what is it that has "free > will"? What is it that "chooses", if there is no "self"? > DAVE: But, I've read in various places how the uniqueness of Buddhism is that we are responsible for our fate. It is not up to a omni-god or anything. But, really aren't we saying the same thing as the Calvinists might say, only replacing the "irresistable grace" and their predestination by God, with "irresistable Kamma" and predestination by natural law? > So what happens to us comes from our past kamma. How we react is > based on our habits (accumulations). The willed action resulting > from our reaction creates new kamma. Perhaps a diagram might help. > > Past action -1-> current situation -2-> new action -3-> new situation > > -1-> : kamma is a condition for the current situation to arise > -2-> : accumulations are a condition for the new action to arise > -3-> : kamma (new + old) is a condition for the new situation to > arise > > Each second, we experience millions of thoughts and each thought > creates "kammic seeds" which have the potential to mature at a later > time. The surrounding conditions determine which of the kammic seeds > surrounding me at this moment will mature; but the nature of what > matures is based on the nature of the maturing kammic seed. > > ===== > > > As another example; a > > very good friend of mine lost his wife last year to Mennengitis. > > Now, her death caused great suffering to him, his children, and > her > > family. If we were to say that her parent's grief of watching > their > > daughter die was due to their Kamma from the past, then how did > the > > Universe know that that child would grow up and get a disease in > her > > late 20's? It just seems that if we are to be suffering > consequences > > of past actions, then the order to things must be very precise (or > > pre-determined). > > ===== > > Even the week-old baby in Christine's post has uncountable kammic > seeds waiting for the appropriate conditions to arise. Your friend, > his wife, the children and the parents all had countless kammic > seeds waiting for the conditions to arise for them to mature. As > Christine pointed out, one must consider the big picture (this is > one of counteless existences). DAVE: I think I can see part of this... I have always believed that our "free will" is not totally free, but predictable based on probabilities. Sort of a limited scientific determinism. The scope of our will is limited to those choices for which there is a probability, and within them, the majority of the time, we end up picking the one with the greatest probability (sort of like predicting the weather... a 20% chance of rain means that it will definitely rain in Indiana!). Anyway, I can perhaps see the possibility of a moral thread running through everything... but I sure don't think I understand it yet! > > Sorry for cutting this short, but gotta run for a meeting! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) DAVE: I do thank you again for taking the time and having the patience to try to explain all of this to me. Sometimes this can be overwhelming. There is so much I must learn and, to quote Yoda "you must unlearn!" I also hope there is no tone of being confrontational in my above post. That is not my intention. I am just trying to understand how these laws really operate and inter-relate. Peace, Dave 20851 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 9:36am Subject: Re: equanimity --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: Is it a good idea to train oneself to be equanimous in all situations (vipassana meditation)? Doesn't this take the 'spice' out of life? If a person transcends all worldly attachments, then what is beyond? KKT: The answer is: << Happiness >> Sariputta once said: __O friend, Nirvana is happiness! Nirvana is happiness! Then Udayi asked: __But, friend Sariputta, what happiness can it be if there is no sensation? Sariputta replied: __That there is no sensation itself is happiness. (from What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula, p.43) KKT 20852 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 11:25am Subject: Re: equanimity --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: > Is it a good idea to train oneself to be equanimous in all situations > (vipassana meditation)? Doesn't this take the 'spice' out of life? If > a person transcends all worldly attachments, then what is beyond? Hi Charnett (??): It is advisable to maintain equanimity through out life, and in all situations. Following the eightfold path (of which Vipassana meditation is a part), will allow this. The `spice of life' that you are referring to is actually suffering. Equanimity allows you to see deeper into life's occurrences, to not be a victim of events, to better understand people and their motives, to not be pulled in every direction by personal desire and the desire of others, to stop being confused and bewildered, to live in a worthwhile way by helping others, to appreciate simple things, to not make numerous enemies, to not need the acquaintance of unwholesome friends, to be forgiving, to not be bored with life, to basically live in harmony with everything and everyone. KKT is quite correct, I think, what is beyond the suffering of life (`spice' as you say) is true happiness. Good luck to you in your practice. Metta, James 20853 From: robmoult Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 1:47pm Subject: Re: Kamma and rebirth Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Rob (and James) - > > > > In a message dated 4/1/03 4:04:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, > rob.moult@j... > > writes: > > > > > > > > Hi James, > > > > > > We haven't chatted in a while! I've missed it. ===== As you can see from my opening, I was thrilled when you participated in the conversation. Please do it more often. ===== > > Hi Rob (and Howard), > > I didn't say that you misunderstood; I said that you didn't answer; > in other words you changed the subject (which I don't think was > intentional)…and I thought it was an important subject to pursue > further. Not only that, the conversation was entirely in my > language; which prompted my rare participation ;-). ===== I'm not sure what you mean here. Please help me to understand. ===== > But I see now, > from Howard's post, that it was an inside conversation of an > intellectual nature…and, dang, just when I understood it! ;-). I > offer my apologies to you both for jumping in. ===== In my opinion, if somebody wants to have a "private" conversation, they should send an email... this is a discussion GROUP. James, please feel free (but not free will :-) ) to jump in to any exchange that I am involved with (I believe that Howard has expressed the same sentinment). ===== > > I believe that you are looking at the term `Free Will' with a lot of > connotative knowledge of various philosophies and schools of thought > (which I might recommend studying the Islamic approach to this > subject for something truly interesting); however, I am taking a > more `brown bag' approach. Nothing fancy, just general usage of the > term. I really don't want to discuss if `Free Will' exists or not, > that becomes highly ideological in my eyes and doesn't lead to the > cessation of suffering. ===== As I see it, attachment to the concept of "free will" contributes in a major way to "personality belief" (sakkaya ditthi). ===== > Guess I should have stayed out of this > conversation. Being sick, I was oblivious to the subtleties. Take > care and carry on ;-). ===== Hope you get better soon. Metta, Rob M :-) 20854 From: Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 3:54pm Subject: Way 70, Clear Comprehension 5 Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, 'The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension (purpose, suitability, resort, non-delusion), http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html 5. Clear comprehension in the partaking of food and drink. Cont. Further, the clear comprehension of non-delusion should be understood through reflection on the unpleasantness connected with food, in the following ten ways: By way of the need to go to get it (1), to seek it (2), the process of eating it (3), by way of the receptacle (in the form of secretion of bile, and so forth) (4), by way of the belly (5), by way of food that is undigested (6), by way of food that is digested (7), by way of the consequences of eating (8), by way of the trickling or oozing of food from the body's openings in the form of excretions (9), and by way of the pollution due to food (10). The detailed exposition of the contemplation on the unpleasantness connected with food is given in the Path of Purity (and its commentary, The Casket of the Highest Thing, Paramattha Mañjusa). [Tika] By way of the need to go for it (food): By way of going towards the alms-village in the sense of wandering for alms. The return journey is also included. [T] By way of the need to seek it: By way of wandering for alms in the alms-village. Entry into a retiring hall and the like become included in this, naturally. [T] By way of the process of eating it: By way of taking in the contemptible food comparable to dog's vomit in a dog's food trough, rid of color and odor just when the tongue turns the food which has been reduced to pulp by the pestles of the teeth. [T] By way of the receptacle (in the form of excretion of bile, phlegm, pus and blood): Through the food thus taken in becoming the condition for prime contemptibility, by way of the fourfold receptacle placed on the top of the stomach. [T] What stands, exists, there, in the upper part of the stomach is the staying place, the receptacle. [T] By way of the food that is undigested: By way of non-preparation of the food in the stomach and the intestines for absorption by the body, through the process of karma-produced caloricity called "the seizer", a supposed organ of the body which functions in digestion, according to Ayurvedic teaching of ancient India. [T] By way of the food that is digested: Digested through just the karma-produced process of caloricity abovementioned. [T] By way of the consequences of eating: By way of effect. By way of the business called the bringing about of carcass-products like hair, and diseases, like skin eruptions through the digested and undigested food. This is stated by the commentator as the fruit of food. [T] By way of the trickling or oozing of food from the body's openings in the form of excretions: By way of the flowing out from eye, ear and several other openings, here and there. For it is said by the Ancients: [T] Hard eats, soft eats, food and drink superfine, Get in at one door and get out by nine. [T] By way of the pollution due to food: By way of the smearing throughout, when eating, of the hands, lips, and other members of that kind, and, after eating, of the nine openings or doors of the body. 20855 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: Kamma and rebirth --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi James, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Hi, Rob (and James) - > > > > > > In a message dated 4/1/03 4:04:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > rob.moult@j... > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi James, > > > > > > > > We haven't chatted in a while! I've missed it. > > ===== > > As you can see from my opening, I was thrilled when you participated > in the conversation. Please do it more often. > > I'm not sure what you mean here. Please help me to understand. > > Hope you get better soon. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi Rob M, I believe I must have chosen my words poorly for this post. It seems that you and Howard have misunderstood. I am thankful that you appreciated my participation, and I will participate again I am sure. I meant that my participation was rare because a lot of the posts here contain somewhat obscure Pali words and terms. Even though a glossary of Pali terms is provided, I don't want to use it. If I don't understand a post, without having to look up words, I skip it. This is a personal choice, but does limit my participation somewhat. And, of course, I realize that the conversation between you and Howard was public ;-). What I meant was that it has a subtext of personal history between you two that I wasn't privy to; therefore I misinterpreted somewhat the message. No big deal. I hope this helps you to understand better what I meant. Now, it can be forgotten. Thank you for the get well wishes. I am feeling better. Take care. Metta, James 20856 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Howard Thanks for these comments. I'm not sure if we are on the same wavelength here ;-)). Howard: Why does their impermanence make them unsatisfactory? What is wrong with not lasting? NOTHING is wrong with not lasting! We just don't like it!! We WANT pleasant things to last, just as we want unpleasant things to cease. The unsatisfactoriness comes from our desires and preferences, and are *not* intrinsic in the phenomena themselves. Jon: What you say is no doubt one way of looking at it. However, the explanation given in the teachings that interests me is that the impermanence of all conditioned dhammas makes them not worthy of clinging to, of being a refuge of any sort. Howard: The very fact, as you allude to in the next sentence, that dissatisfaction (dukkha) is gone in the arahant *proves* that it is extrinsic. Jon: The 'mental reaction of dissatisfaction' I was referring to is a mental factor, one that arises with an akusala moment of consciousness. 'Dukkha' I understand to be one of the 3 characteristics of all conditioned dhammas that are penetrated by the arahant immediately before his enlightenment. Put like this, I think it is easy to see that the eradication of the former (by the arahant)does not have any bearing on the latter. Insight into the 'dukkhaness' of conditioned phenomena is an outcome of the development of satipatthana/vipassana, so naturally it is more highly developed in the enlightened person than in the non-enlightened person. I hope this clarifies my persective. Happy to discuss further. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 3/30/03 7:12:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > H: I'd like to make two points. The first is that it is > > important, I think, to distinguish between dukkha as unpleasant > > feeling and dukkha as that fabrication/sankhara that is (or is > the > > result of) craving, aversion, and attachment. It seems to me that > the > > "dukkha" the Buddha speaks of getting to the end of is not > unpleasant > > feeling, but rather the mental reaction of dissatisfaction that > > arises with respect to all conditions due to our clinging and > pushing > > away. That reaction of dissatisfaction does not inhere in the > object, > > but is due to the presence of the three poisons. With liberation > (and > > the end of the three poisons), dukkha in the sense of unpleasant > > feeling will remain, but not dukkha in the deeper, reactive > sense. > > > > J: I agree that dukkha is not just unpleasant feeling, but nor > is it > > just the mental reaction of dissatisfaction that arises with > respect > > to all conditions due to our clinging and pushing away. It is, > to my > > understanding, the inherent unsatisfactoriness in all conditioned > > phenomena due to their impermanence. > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Why does their impermanence make them unsatisfactory? What > is wrong > with not lasting? NOTHING is wrong with not lasting! We just don't > like it!! > We WANT pleasant things to last, just as we want unpleasant things > to cease. > The unsatisfactoriness comes from our desires and preferences, and > are *not* > intrinsic in the phenomena themselves. The very fact, as you allude > to in the > next sentence, that dissatisfaction (dukkha) is gone in the arahant > *proves* > that it is extrinsic. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This is more apparent to the> > > arahant (who of course no longer has any mental reaction of > > dissatisfaction) than to the unenlightened or less-enlightened > being, > > because of the arahant's greater degree of penetration of the > true > > characteristic of conditioned phenomena > ============================= > With metta, > Howard 20857 From: Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 1:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/1/03 8:36:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Thanks for these comments. I'm not sure if we are on the same > wavelength here ;-)). > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmmm, somewhat yes, but mostly no. ------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: Why does their impermanence make them unsatisfactory? > What is wrong with not lasting? NOTHING is wrong with not lasting! We > just don't like it!! We WANT pleasant things to last, just as we want > unpleasant things to cease. The unsatisfactoriness comes from our > desires and preferences, and are *not* intrinsic in the phenomena > themselves. > > Jon: What you say is no doubt one way of looking at it. However, > the explanation given in the teachings that interests me is that the > impermanence of all conditioned dhammas makes them not worthy of > clinging to, of being a refuge of any sort. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that it is pointless to cling to something that does not last - pointless and hurtful (given that we cling *because* we want to hold onto it.) But as I see it, the impermanence is a fact about conditioned dhammas that will continue to be the case, but desire and clinging need not continue. When the desiring, aversion, and clinging are gone, what is unsatisfactory about the impermanence and about the impermanent dhammas? Nothing. So, the unsatisfactoriness is dependent on our clinging, not only on the impermanence. The unsatisfactoriness isn't intrinsic to the impermanent conditions, because it doesn't depend only on them. It is realtional. But, yes, all conditioned dhammas are unsatisfactory to worldlings, and they are all unworthy of being clung to by sentient beings. Unsatisfactoriness is basically relational. No things are worth being clung to. That does not make them unsatisfactory except to those who *do* cling. Given that they are not unsatisfactory to all beings under all conditions, the unsatisfactoriness is not intrinsic. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: The very fact, as you allude to in the next sentence, that > dissatisfaction (dukkha) is gone in the arahant *proves* that it is > extrinsic. > > Jon: The 'mental reaction of dissatisfaction' I was referring to is > a mental factor, one that arises with an akusala moment of > consciousness. 'Dukkha' I understand to be one of the 3 > characteristics of all conditioned dhammas that are penetrated by the > arahant immediately before his enlightenment. Put like this, I think > it is easy to see that the eradication of the former (by the > arahant)does not have any bearing on the latter. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly what is this dukkha of dhammas? What is it other than the fact that worldlings find all dhammas to be ultimately unsatisfying, because worldlings always eventually want conditions to be other than they are? In any case, whether there is something called "dukkha" that is intrinsic to all conditioned dhammas or not, it is the "dukkha of dissatisfaction" that is the only concern to people. The alleged "intrinsic dukkha" is an idle curiosity, an item of interest only suitable for intellectual time killing, but irrevant to the end of suffering which requires that we see clearly that tanha must end, and that we take the steps to end it. Dukkha as suffering - from the slightest sense of things "just being off" or "being off-kilter" to the greatest extreme of intolerable suffering - is what the Buddha taught the end of, it is what the four noble truths are all about, and the end of dukkha in this sense is what the Dhamma is all about. Certainly the direct awareness of the impermanence, conditionality, and impersonality of all dhammas implies their unworthiness of being grasped at. But that is a relational matter. In fact, not only are they *unworthy* of being grasped at, they are like hot flaming iron ingots if grasped at, and, thus, should not be clung to. They should be let go of. If this is what you mean by "their dukkha", well okay, but the problem lies in the grasping, not in what is grasped. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Insight into the 'dukkhaness' of conditioned phenomena is an outcome > of the development of satipatthana/vipassana, so naturally it is more > highly developed in the enlightened person than in the > non-enlightened person. > > I hope this clarifies my persective. Happy to discuss further. > > Jon > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20858 From: m. nease Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 6:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] equanimity Hi, Christhedis, ----- Original Message ----- From: christhedis To: Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:16 AM Subject: [dsg] equanimity > Is it a good idea to train oneself to be equanimous in all situations > (vipassana meditation)? We haven't met and I'm not sure what you're responding to. But most forms of equanimity are unwholesome, I think. > Doesn't this take the 'spice' out of life? If > a person transcends all worldly attachments, then what is beyond? Freedom, I think--don't know from experience. Nice meeting you... mike 20859 From: christhedis Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 8:08pm Subject: Re: equanimity Hi James and others, Thanks for your replies. If a person becomes completely equanimous then is not even the desire for rebirth overcome? Aren't you conditioning yourself to 'overcome life' and this is a good idea? Isn't it possible to live in harmony with everything and still have worldly desires? Isn't complete equanimity too nihilistic? Chris. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" > wrote: > > Is it a good idea to train oneself to be equanimous in all > situations > > (vipassana meditation)? Doesn't this take the 'spice' out of life? > If > > a person transcends all worldly attachments, then what is beyond? > > Hi Charnett (??): > > It is advisable to maintain equanimity through out life, and in all > situations. Following the eightfold path (of which Vipassana > meditation is a part), will allow this. The `spice of life' that > you are referring to is actually suffering. Equanimity allows you > to see deeper into life's occurrences, to not be a victim of events, > to better understand people and their motives, to not be pulled in > every direction by personal desire and the desire of others, to stop > being confused and bewildered, to live in a worthwhile way by > helping others, to appreciate simple things, to not make numerous > enemies, to not need the acquaintance of unwholesome friends, to be > forgiving, to not be bored with life, to basically live in harmony > with everything and everyone. > > KKT is quite correct, I think, what is beyond the suffering of life > (`spice' as you say) is true happiness. Good luck to you in your > practice. > > Metta, James 20860 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 8:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa op 01-04-2003 10:00 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: Dear smallchap, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > Even when someone has >> reached stages of insight, there are still the imperfections of > insight. >> Among them clinging. > > Clinging is present even for one who has attained the 3rd stage of > enlightenment, Anagami. N: Yes. But as to the imperfections of insight it is different. Here there is clinging to insight that prevents that person to go on to the following stages. He clings to the calm or the assurance the first stages of tender insight have given. It stops the progress unless he sees these imperfections as conditioned realities and he can be mindful of them and develop panna further. Nina. 20861 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 8:08pm Subject: Perfections Ch 8, no 11. Perfections Ch 8, no 11. We read in the Commentary: ³He should rejoice in the merits of all beings.² When we notice someone else¹s kusala and we rejoice in it, we are truthful, we are sincere in our appreciation of his kusala. We may not be able to perform a good deed ourselves, but we can appreciate someone else¹s kusala. If we do not appreciate this, the citta is akusala. The perfection of truthfulness is essential. We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² in the Miscellaneous Sayings: The perfection of truthfulness should be reviewed thus: "Without truthfulness, virtue, etc., is impossible, and there can be no practice in accordance with one's vows. All evil states converge upon the transgression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future. On the other hand, one devoted to truth secures the foundation of all noble qualities. With truthfulness as the foundation, he is capable of purifying and fulfilling all the requisites of enlightenment. Not deceived about the true nature of phenomena, he performs the functions of all the requisites of enlightenment and completes the practice of the bodhisattva path." As we read, ³without truthfulness, virtue, etc., is impossible.² This means that without truthfulness, one does not speak the truth, acts with deception, and all one¹s deeds are crooked. Without truthfulness, one cannot observe síla and there is no practice in accordance with one¹s vows. Vow, patiññå, means being steadfast in truthfulness [8] . If someone does not speak the truth he cannot act in accordance with his vow. As we read in the Commentary, ³All evil states converge upon the transgression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future.² Thus, we see the significance of the perfection of truthfulness. This is truthfulness and sincerity with regard to the right practice leading to the eradication of defilements; it includes the development of all kinds of kusala so that the noble Truths can be realized. We need the perfection of sacca, truthfulness, with regard to the right practice: our sole purpose should be the penetration of the true nature of realities. We may not know thoroughly and in all details what the right practice is. We should reflect on the Bodhisatta¹s practice before he attained Buddhahood and then we shall know that he gave an example of the right practice of kusala, kusala that was very subtle and refined. We can follow his example in our daily life. The perfection of paññå should be developed together with the other perfections. We cannot forego any of the perfections, because each perfection is a necessary support for the others. Truthfulness, sacca, for example, is necessary for the performing of generosity, dåna. Without truthfulness generosity cannot reach fulfilment. Without truthfulness the observance of síla cannot reach accomplishment. Thus, truthfulness is essential for the fulfilment of the other perfections. Footnote 8. The Bodhisatta made a vow to attain Buddhahood. 20862 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 8:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object Hi Larry op 01-04-2003 03:37 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Another issue might be that perhaps you are saying concept cannot be > vipaka. I couldn't find a textual answer to this. What does Nina say??? N: Vipaka is the mental result of kamma, vipaka citta and the accompanying cetasikas. Rupa produced by kamma is the physical result of kamma. Kamma and its result are realities, not concepts. Concepts are objects of thinking, objects of the citta that thinks. Nina. 20863 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Re: equanimity --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: > Hi James and others, > > Thanks for your replies. If a person becomes completely equanimous > then is not even the desire for rebirth overcome? Aren't you > conditioning yourself to 'overcome life' and this is a good idea? > Isn't it possible to live in harmony with everything and still have > worldly desires? > > Isn't complete equanimity too nihilistic? > > Chris. Hi Chris, I think I need to define a bit more about Buddhist goals. First, those who follow the Eightfold Path don't want to be reborn again (well, aren't supposed to anyway). They want to end the round of suffering, which is caused by being reborn again and again, because they see that it is fueled by ignorance. Who wants to continue to be ignorant? Not me. I have a feeling of restlessness that this life is not what it could be or what it should be. Now, this doesn't mean that I want to disappear or cease to exist, which is defined as nihilistic. I just want to find out the truth…what happens after that is of little importance. Other religions try to figure out where people go after they die, what the soul is like, and all kinds of other conceptual fantasies; and where does all of that get you? Nowhere. You are still stuck in the same unhappy life because of the ignorance here and now. The goal is to eradicate ignorance and thus eradicate desire in the here and now, everything else is just fantasy. No it is not possible to live in harmony with everything and have worldly desires. Just think about it. Can you think of one instance where you would `want' something, and still be in harmony with everything? I sure can't. Every single action should be based on `need' not `want'. Even things as simple as eating, clothing, and shelter should be based on need and not want. As soon as `want' comes into the equation, things get really messed up. Then there is suffering and discord with everything. I am not sure what you are thinking that equanimity means (and Mike states in his post with confidence that it is unwholesome…which leads me to believe we are talking about different things). Chris, equanimity is the way of the middle path. At one extreme you have euphoric bliss, which is fruitless; at the other extreme you have selfish desire, which is also fruitless. Equanimity is in the middle of those two extremes. It doesn't mean that you become a zombie and can't function, like your brain has been taken out. It means that all of your decisions and thoughts are based on need and wisdom rather than want and ignorance. I hope this explains a bit more. Metta, James 20864 From: Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Dukkha From the Nibbedhika Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya > "'Dukkha should be known. The cause by which dukkha comes into play should > be known. The diversity in dukkha should be known. The result of dukkha > should be known. The cessation of dukkha should be known. The path of > practice for the cessation of dukkha should be known.' Thus it has been > said. In reference to what was it said? "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, > death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are dukkha; > association with what is not loved is dukkha, separation from what is loved > is dukkha, not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five > clinging-aggregates are dukkha. "And what is the cause by which dukkha > comes into play? Craving is the cause by which dukkha comes into play. "And > what is the diversity in dukkha? There is major dukkha & minor, slowly > fading & quickly fading. This is called the diversity in dukkha. "And what > is the result of dukkha? There are some cases in which a person overcome > with pain, his mind exhausted, grieves, mourns, laments, beats his breast, & > becomes bewildered. Or one overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, comes > to search outside, 'Who knows a way or two to stop this pain?' I tell you, > monks, that dukkha results either in bewilderment or in search. This is > called the result of dukkha. "And what is the cessation of dukkha? From the > cessation of craving is the cessation of dukkha; and just this noble > eightfold path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration -- > is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha. "Now when a > disciple of the noble ones discerns dukkha in this way, the cause by which > dukkha comes into play in this way, the diversity of dukkha in this way, > the result of dukkha in this way, the cessation of dukkha in this way, & > the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha in this way, then > he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of dukkha." > With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20865 From: Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object Hi Nina and Jon, Thanks for your input. I agree (I looked it up) but don't understand. As I understand it, the color characteristics of Rob's computer are kamma result and have an "intrinsic" (consensus) desirability. But the information retrieving capabilities of the computer are not kamma result. Information, even dhamma info, has no such "intrinsic" desirability or value. Does that mean that the value we place on dhamma info, for example, only arises in mind-door javana? What about wealth as kamma result? Is that measured only by the 5 senses in the moment, not by money in the bank? What about meeting a teacher who really makes a difference in your life? Is the kamma result aspect of that only the teacher's appearance and sound of her voice? Larry 20866 From: smallchap Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 10:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > op 01-04-2003 10:00 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > > Dear smallchap, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > > wrote: > > Even when someone has > >> reached stages of insight, there are still the imperfections of > > insight. > >> Among them clinging. > > > > Clinging is present even for one who has attained the 3rd stage of > > enlightenment, Anagami. > N: Yes. But as to the imperfections of insight it is different. Here there > is clinging to insight that prevents that person to go on to the following > stages. He clings to the calm or the assurance the first stages of tender > insight have given. It stops the progress unless he sees these imperfections > as conditioned realities and he can be mindful of them and develop panna > further. > Nina. -------- Understood. Thank you! smallchap 20867 From: Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object Hi again N & J, One more. When someone asks a question, isn't the answer kamma result? Larry 20868 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 1:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Hi Mike, and all, Perhaps Attachment (lobha) though akusala (unwholesome) itself could lead to something kusala (wholesome). For instance, is my attachment to learning more of what the Buddha taught, and listening to good friends in the Dhamma, to be discouraged because it is probably lobha, or encouraged because hearing and reflecting on the Dhamma is wholesome and the leads to eventual Liberation? I'm not sure anything would happen in life without Attachment (lobha) - I think it is in every decision I make. I wouldn't have studied or chosen my career without lobha, or married, or had children. Maybe I wouldn't have even come to the Dhamma without lobha for peace, or was that aversion (dosa) to suffering? How do we lessen lobha? Or should we even try? Isn't the very thought just more lobha - lobha for 'less lobha'? Or is that dosa for lobha? :-) Cheers, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Chris, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: christine_forsyth > > > It is one thing to agree intellectually with > > "So one who aspires > > to be stainless & sorrowless > > shouldn't make anything > > in the world dear > > anywhere", > > but really quite scary to imagine having nothing dear anywhere - at > > least, it is for me. > > I do know what you mean--I think. Love of family and friends, peace, > freedom, truth, beauty, good etc. seem not only harmless but, for many > people, the best part of life. Understanding the role of tanhaa in these > pleasant (and seemingly 'good') attachments is crucial to the understanding > of Buddhadhamma, in my opinion. We've been conditioned from birth (and not > just in the West, I think) to think 'love=good--hate=bad'. But if > translated to 'lobha=good'--'dosa=bad', it highlights the huge difference > between Buddhadhamma and the way of the world, I think--even on a fairly > conventional, theoretical level. > > > Your posts always set me thinking Mike :-) > > Back at you Mate--I hope that's a good thing. > > mike 20869 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 1:52am Subject: Re: equanimity Hi Chris, Equanimity is called upekkha in Pali. Nyanaponika Thera wrote about The Brahma Viharas - The Four Sublime States in 'Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity' "Equanimity is the crown and culmination of the four sublime states. But this should not be understood to mean that equanimity is the negation of love, compassion and sympathetic joy, or that it leaves them behind as inferior. Far from that, equanimity includes and pervades them fully, just as they fully pervade perfect equanimity." http://www.multifaithnet.org/mirror/ATIleaves/lib/bps/wheels/wheel006. html#con metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: > Hi James and others, > > Thanks for your replies. If a person becomes completely equanimous > then is not even the desire for rebirth overcome? Aren't you > conditioning yourself to 'overcome life' and this is a good idea? > Isn't it possible to live in harmony with everything and still have > worldly desires? > > Isn't complete equanimity too nihilistic? > > Chris. 20870 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 1:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Hi Dave, You ask: "Well, let me ask another question then, if love of family is a form of attachment, how is it that a good Buddhist should treat his spouse and children?" This excerpt from the Sigalovada Sutta may throw some light on how a follower of the Dhamma is encouraged to act towards family members. Everyman's Ethics Four Discourses of the Buddha Adapted from the translations of Narada Thera. The Wheel Publication No. 14 "And how, young householder, does a noble disciple cover the six quarters? "The following should be looked upon as the six quarters. The parents should be looked upon as the East, teachers as the South, wife and children as the West, friends and associates as the North, servants and employees as the Nadir, ascetics and brahmans as the Zenith. "In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East: (i) Having supported me I shall support them, (ii) I shall do their duties, (iii) I shall keep the family tradition, (iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance, (v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my departed relatives. "In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion: (i) they restrain them from evil, (ii) they encourage them to do good, (iii) they train them for a profession, (iv) they arrange a suitable marriage, (v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them. "In these five ways do children minister to their parents as the East and the parents show their compassion to their children. Thus is the East covered by them and made safe and secure. "In five ways, young householder, a pupil should minister to a teacher as the South: (i) by rising from the seat in salutation, (ii) by attending on him, (iii) by eagerness to learn, (iv) by personal service, (v) by respectful attention while receiving instructions. "In five ways, young householder, do teachers thus ministered to as the South by their pupils, show their compassion: (i) they train them in the best discipline, (ii) they see that they grasp their lessons well, (iii) they instruct them in the arts and sciences, (iv) they introduce them to their friends and associates, (v) they provide for their safety in every quarter. "The teachers thus ministered to as the South by their pupils, show their compassion towards them in these five ways. Thus is the South covered by them and made safe and secure. "In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband: (i) by being courteous to her, (ii) by not despising her, (iii) by being faithful to her, (iv) by handing over authority to her, (v) by providing her with adornments. "The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five ways: (i) she performs her duties well, (ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants (iii) she is faithful, (iv) she protects what he brings, (v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties. "In these five ways does the wife show her compassion to her husband who ministers to her as the West. Thus is the West covered by him and made safe and secure." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel014.html metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" 20871 From: rahula_80 Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 4:45am Subject: Wordlings are mad Hi, I have come across this phrase "All wordlings (putthujana) are mad" attributed to the Buddha. Does anyone know the source of this phrase? Thanks, Rahula 20872 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] equanimity: To Mike Nease Dear Mike How have you been? You wrote: "But most forms of equanimity are unwholesome, I think." As Christine noted, the term 'equanimity' is a translation of the Pali term 'Upekkhaa'. Now, upekkhaa can refer to one of two mental associates (cetasikas), which are vedanaa (feeling) and tatramajjattataa (equanimity). When upekkhaa refers to vedanaa, it is neutral feeling that can participate in any type of consciousness. That is to say, upekkhaa as vedanaa can be unwholesome - as you rightly wrote. However, when upekkhaa refers to tatramajjattataa, it is equanimity that is totally outside the domain of unwholesome consciousness types. Please kindly check your favourite handbook of Abhidhammatthasangaha to look up sobhana cetasikas (pleasant mental associates) where you will find tatramajjattataa as one of them. Upekkhaa is a synonym of tatramajjattataa, and is used in Suttan Pi.taka in the sense of equanimity when the Buddha taught the development of the four phenomena of pure living (Brahma Vihaara). Therefore, I think you meant upekkhaa as vedanaa when you wrote "But most forms of equanimity are unwholesome, I think." By the way, I have been following your posts here and elsewhere such as "Parameters..", which you executed with healthy mental positioning (yoniso manasikaaro). I found them to be pleasant read. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi, Christhedis, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: christhedis > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:16 AM > Subject: [dsg] equanimity > > > > Is it a good idea to train oneself to be equanimous in all situations > > (vipassana meditation)? > > We haven't met and I'm not sure what you're responding to. But most forms > of equanimity are unwholesome, I think. > > > Doesn't this take the 'spice' out of life? If > > a person transcends all worldly attachments, then what is beyond? > > Freedom, I think--don't know from experience. > > Nice meeting you... > > mike 20873 From: m. nease Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] equanimity: To Mike Nease Hello, Suan, ----- Original Message ----- From: abhidhammika > "But most forms of equanimity are unwholesome, I think." > Now, upekkhaa can refer to one of two mental associates (cetasikas), > which are vedanaa (feeling) and tatramajjattataa (equanimity). > > When upekkhaa refers to vedanaa, it is neutral feeling that can > participate in any type of consciousness. That is to say, upekkhaa as > vedanaa can be unwholesome - as you rightly wrote. > > However, when upekkhaa refers to tatramajjattataa, it is equanimity > that is totally outside the domain of unwholesome consciousness > types. > > Please kindly check your favourite handbook of Abhidhammatthasangaha > to look up sobhana cetasikas (pleasant mental associates) where you > will find tatramajjattataa as one of them. Upekkhaa is a synonym of > tatramajjattataa, and is used in Suttan Pi.taka in the sense of > equanimity when the Buddha taught the development of the four > phenomena of pure living (Brahma Vihaara). > > Therefore, I think you meant upekkhaa as vedanaa when you wrote "But > most forms of equanimity are unwholesome, I think." Yes... Thanks for your typically excellent clarification of my typically vague comments. Always good to hear from you, sir. mike 20874 From: m. nease Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love Hi Chris, Good questions all, in my opinion. The key is understanding, I think--the more understanding, the less attachment and the more attention to the real phenomena arising in the present moment. Despite all my railing against lobha, it is certainly the greatest motivating factor in all my activities--I'm a total hedonist by nature--not at all the goody-goody I may sound like. I would have to agree with you, though, that attachment that leads deeper into consideration of the Buddhdhamma can't be all bad! And of course, as you say, dosa for lobha? Lobha for less lobha? What's the use? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 1:45 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Love > Hi Mike, and all, > > Perhaps Attachment (lobha) though akusala (unwholesome) itself could > lead to something kusala (wholesome). For instance, is my > attachment to learning more of what the Buddha taught, and listening > to good friends in the Dhamma, to be discouraged because it is > probably lobha, or encouraged because hearing and reflecting on the > Dhamma is wholesome and the leads to eventual Liberation? > > I'm not sure anything would happen in life without Attachment > (lobha) - I think it is in every decision I make. I wouldn't have > studied or chosen my career without lobha, or married, or had > children. Maybe I wouldn't have even come to the Dhamma without > lobha for peace, or was that aversion (dosa) to suffering? > > How do we lessen lobha? Or should we even try? Isn't the very > thought just more lobha - lobha for 'less lobha'? Or is that dosa > for lobha? :-) > > Cheers, > Christine 20875 From: nidive Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 8:41am Subject: Re: Dukkha Hi Howard, In response to your post on Dukkha and your post 20857, > Unsatisfactoriness is basically relational. No things are worth being > clung to. That does not make them unsatisfactory except to those who > *do* cling. Given that they are not unsatisfactory to all beings > under all conditions, the unsatisfactoriness is not intrinsic. > In reference to what was it said? "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, > death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are > dukkha; association with what is not loved is dukkha, separation from > what is loved is dukkha, not getting what is wanted is dukkha. Now, I understand that aging is dukkha for worldings. But how is it that aging is not dukkha for the Buddha? From the time of his Enlightenment to the time of his parinibbana, surely the Buddha had been aging all the way. I think the Buddha is being absolute here. Aging is dukkha, irrespective of whether the person who ages is an arahant or not. Yet though the Buddha ages, there is no dukkha of sorror, lamentation, pain, distress & despair associated with that aging. I see "unsatisfactoriness" as being intrinsic in the five aggregates. Whatever is impermanent is dukkha. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 20876 From: Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dukkha Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 4/2/03 11:51:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Now, I understand that aging is dukkha for worldings. But how is it > that aging is not dukkha for the Buddha? From the time of his > Enlightenment to the time of his parinibbana, surely the Buddha had > been aging all the way. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: He sure *had* been. But it didn't bother him in the slightest. Nothing bothered him. He had no dislikes. He was equanimous, free, and through with dukkha. ------------------------------------------------ > > I think the Buddha is being absolute here. Aging is dukkha, > irrespective of whether the person who ages is an arahant or not. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Then the Buddha, after he became the Buddha, was not free of dukkha! But that is false. The Buddha walked the path to its end. Part of the sutta I quoted is the following: "And what is the cessation of dukkha? From the > cessation of craving is the cessation of dukkha; and just this noble > eightfold path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration -- > is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha." ------------------------------------------------- > > Yet though the Buddha ages, there is no dukkha of sorror, lamentation, > pain, distress &despair associated with that aging. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Indeed, no dukkha. Why? Because the Buddha had no aggregates of clinging. The Buddha clung to nothing and recognized nothing as "me" or "mine". It was all impersonal for him, and he was *free*. ------------------------------------------------- > > I see "unsatisfactoriness" as being intrinsic in the five aggregates. > Whatever is impermanent is dukkha. Regards,> > NEO Swee Boon > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20877 From: nidive Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 9:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dukkha Hi Howard, > Howard: Then the Buddha, after he became the Buddha, was not free of > dukkha! But that is false. The Buddha walked the path to its end. > Part of the sutta I quoted is the following: > "And what is the cessation of dukkha? From the cessation of > craving > is the cessation of dukkha; So, from the cessation of craving is the cessation of aging? And yet the Buddha still ages. This is a contradiction. The cessation of craving does not the cessation of aging of this present lifetime make. Instead, the cessation of craving is the cessation of aging beyond this present lifetime. Without birth as the requisite condition, aging cannot arise. But the present lifetime of the Buddha is with birth as the requisite condition. Aging must therefore arise. And aging is dukkha. The aging of the present lifetime is still physical dukkha for the Buddha. But there is no mental dukkha associated with that physical dukkha. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 20878 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 10:08am Subject: Dhamma Issues 5, no 1. Disappearance of Ariyans Dhamma Issues 5, no 1. The Disappearance of Ariyans Introduction. At the Buddha¹s time the Order of the monks was established, but there was not yet an Order of bhikkhuní, nuns. Mahåpajåpatí, the Buddha¹s aunt, wanted to obtain permission from the Buddha for the ordination of women who wanted to go forth. The Buddha refused at first, but after Ånanda had interceded, her request was finally granted, but it was subject to eight strict conditions. These eight rules pertained among others to the conduct of nuns towards the monks, to the ceremony after the rainy season, the ³Invitation Festival², when they had to avow offences seen, heard or suspected. In case of offending against an important rule, a nun had to undergo a discipline for half a month before both Orders. The Buddha foresaw that accumulated defilements would cause both monks and nuns to commit transgressions against their purity of life. This would be the condition for the true Dhamma, saddhamma, to decline more rapidly. He explained to Ånanda that if women had not been allowed to go forth from the home into the homeless life, the Dispensation would have lasted for thousand years. But now it would only last for five hundred years. With the decline of the Dispensation arahats would disappear from this world. In this Issue the consequences of the decline of the Dispensation have been explained 1 . ******* Issue of Analysis : Are there at the present time still arahats? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue : At the present time there is no one with the excellent qualities of the degree of the arahat. The sources which support the conclusion of the analysis: 1. Book of Discipline (V), Cullavagga X, Eight Important Rules for Nuns (the Brahma-faring will not last long). 2. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VI, The Gotamid, §1, Mahåpajåpatí, and its Commentary, the Manorathapúraní. 3. Sumangalavilåsiní, Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², III, no 28, The Faith that satisfied (Sampasådaniya Sutta). The sources that explain the reasons for this conclusion: The Vinaya, Book of Discipline (V), Cullavagga X, Eight Important Rules for Nuns (the Brahma-faring will not last long) and the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VI, The Gotamid, §1, explain about the endurance and the disappearance of the true Dhamma (saddhamma) in the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama. We read that the Buddha said to Ånanda: ³If, Ånanda, women had not obtained the going forth from home into homelessness in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, the Brahma-faring, Ånanda, would have lasted long, true dhamma would have endured for a thousand years. But since, Ånanda, women have gone forth... in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, now, Ånanda, the Brahma-faring will not last long, true dhamma will endure only for five hundred years....² Footnote: 1. I have written this introduction. 20879 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 10:27am Subject: Re: Wordlings are mad Dear Rahula, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: Hi, I have come across this phrase "All wordlings (putthujana) are mad" attributed to the Buddha. Does anyone know the source of this phrase? Thanks, Rahula KKT: This phrase of the Buddha << All wordlings (putthujana) are mad >> is found in many places in Mahayana Sutras (and in the following Pali sutta for example) The word << mad >> is the translation of the Sanskrit word Viparyasa (Pali: Vipallasa) which means perversions, perverted views, error. The worldling is considered << mad >> because he/she holds perverted views. There are 4 main perverted views: Those who perceive the changeful to be permanent, Suffering as bliss, a self in the selfless, And who see in the foul the mark of beauty -- Such folk resort to distorted views, MENTALLY DERANGED, subject to illusion. Caught by Mara, not free from bonds, They are still far from the secure state. Such beings wander through the painful round And go repeatedly from birth to death. Anguttara Nikaya IV, 49 Metta, KKT 20880 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 11:01am Subject: Re: Wordlings are mad Hi Rahula and KKT, Thanks for the question Rahula, and KKT for tracking down the Sutta quote. I have this below from the writings of Sayaday U Pandita http://www.nibbana.com/pandit10.htm Chapter 5 Perversions (Vipallasa): ------------------- "Puthujjanahi ummuttaka Thus we have eight kinds of madness (ummattaka): · kamummattaka — kama madness or frenzied with lust; · kodhummattaka — dosa madness or frenzied with hate; · ditthummattaka — madness with wrong view or frenzied with error; · mohummattaka — frenzied with infatuation; · yakkhummattaka — driven mad by yakkhas or demonic possession; · pittummatakka — mad from organic disorders; · surummattaka — frenzied with intoxicants; · vyasanummatakka — maddened by misfortune, such as suffering, tragic loss of family members and being devasted by the loss of loved ones. We have a saying here: Puthujjanahi ummuttaka All ordinary persons are lunatics. Satipatthana can overcome lunacy." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > KKT: This phrase of the Buddha > << All wordlings (putthujana) are mad >> > is found in many places in Mahayana Sutras > (and in the following Pali sutta for example) > > The word << mad >> is the translation > of the Sanskrit word Viparyasa > (Pali: Vipallasa) which means > perversions, perverted views, error. > > The worldling is considered << mad >> > because he/she holds perverted views. > > There are 4 main perverted views: > Those who perceive the changeful to be permanent, > Suffering as bliss, a self in the selfless, > And who see in the foul the mark of beauty -- > Such folk resort to distorted views, > MENTALLY DERANGED, subject to illusion. > Caught by Mara, not free from bonds, > They are still far from the secure state. > Such beings wander through the painful round > And go repeatedly from birth to death. > > Anguttara Nikaya IV, 49 > > > Metta, > > > KKT 20881 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues 5, no 1. Disappearance of Ariyans --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dhamma Issues 5, no 1. > > The Disappearance of Ariyans > Hi Nina and All, I think what is interesting about this information isn't the men/women issue, but something far more revealing: 1.The omniscience of the Buddha 2.The existence of free will 3.That the future isn't predetermined and there can be a variety of outcomes based on actions…and the Buddha could know all of the outcomes. 4.Therefore, actions or decisions are not completely conditioned by past, present, or future karma. 5.Therefore, free will can exist without a self. Are there any additional Dhamma Issues which address free will vs. predetermination? Or the omniscience of the Buddha? Metta, James 20882 From: Michael Newton Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 9:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Dave, > > You ask: "Well, let me ask another question then, > if love of family > is a form > of attachment, how is it that a good Buddhist should > treat his spouse > and children?" > > This excerpt from the Sigalovada Sutta may throw > some light on how a > follower of the Dhamma is encouraged to act towards > family members. > Everyman's Ethics > Four Discourses of the Buddha > Adapted from the translations of > Narada Thera. The Wheel Publication No. 14 > "And how, young householder, does a noble disciple > cover the six > quarters? > "The following should be looked upon as the six > quarters. The parents > should be looked upon as the East, teachers as the > South, wife and > children as the West, friends and associates as the > North, servants > and employees as the Nadir, ascetics and brahmans as > the Zenith. > "In five ways, young householder, a child should > minister to his > parents as the East: > (i) Having supported me I shall support them, > (ii) I shall do their duties, > (iii) I shall keep the family tradition, > (iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance, > (v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my > departed relatives. > "In five ways, young householder, the parents thus > ministered to as > the East by their children, show their compassion: > (i) they restrain them from evil, > (ii) they encourage them to do good, > (iii) they train them for a profession, > (iv) they arrange a suitable marriage, > (v) at the proper time they hand over their > inheritance to them. > "In these five ways do children minister to their > parents as the East > and the parents show their compassion to their > children. Thus is the > East covered by them and made safe and secure. > "In five ways, young householder, a pupil should > minister to a > teacher as the South: > (i) by rising from the seat in salutation, > (ii) by attending on him, > (iii) by eagerness to learn, > (iv) by personal service, > (v) by respectful attention while receiving > instructions. > "In five ways, young householder, do teachers thus > ministered to as > the South by their pupils, show their compassion: > (i) they train them in the best discipline, > (ii) they see that they grasp their lessons well, > (iii) they instruct them in the arts and sciences, > (iv) they introduce them to their friends and > associates, > (v) they provide for their safety in every quarter. > "The teachers thus ministered to as the South by > their pupils, show > their compassion towards them in these five ways. > Thus is the South > covered by them and made safe and secure. > "In five ways, young householder, should a wife as > the West be > ministered to by a husband: > (i) by being courteous to her, > (ii) by not despising her, > (iii) by being faithful to her, > (iv) by handing over authority to her, > (v) by providing her with adornments. > "The wife thus ministered to as the West by her > husband shows her > compassion to her husband in five ways: > (i) she performs her duties well, > (ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants > (iii) she is faithful, > (iv) she protects what he brings, > (v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging > her duties. > "In these five ways does the wife show her > compassion to her husband > who ministers to her as the West. Thus is the West > covered by him and > made safe and secure." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel014.html > > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" > > Hello!Christine; Thank you for your clear interpretation of our relationship to family in Buddhist context.True,it could be considered attachement,but our family was a direct reason thru kammma,that were here,so we honor and respect that.Thank you for your post, YOURS IN DHAMMA,MICHAEL > 20883 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 2:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: equanimity Nice reply, KKT. How are you? First of all, the clear and unobstructed understanding of equanimity must be studied, learned, and practiced. Equanimity here does not imply, infer, or denote indifference or indifferent feeling. That there is concern or even worry about the so-called spice being taken out of life means that one perhaps needs to see about tanha. Is it about transcending or about upekkha (tatra-majjhattataa)? If it is about equanimity (recently taught with excellence here by Nina, if my memory serves me correctly right at this moment while writing), then I suggest it is not about transcending worldly attachements or worldly aversions but all about the Buddha's teaching concerning the Four Noble Truths and Nibbana. I suggest that without Right Understanding of these things, how can one train oneself to be equanimous in all situations? Do all situations have to rely on tatra-majjhattataa, or do we need rely on smething else in the Refuge? Finally, the training proposed is not merely an "idea". Please carefully examine the Four Brahma-viharas. Can one exist independently of the others? What is the source of your concern as to whether to train or not, and whether or not the "spice" of life is somehow taken out of living? The Taste of the Dhamma Excels all other tastes, and a Taste of the Dhamma, for me, is as close as each breath. The spice is there, so rather than thinking to much, perhaps a taste is in order. VBD ----- Original Message ----- From: "phamdluan2000" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 12:36 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: equanimity > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" > wrote: > > > > Is it a good idea to train oneself to be equanimous in all situations > (vipassana meditation)? Doesn't this take the 'spice' out of life? If > a person transcends all worldly attachments, then what is beyond? > > > > > KKT: The answer is: << Happiness >> > > > Sariputta once said: > > __O friend, Nirvana is happiness! > Nirvana is happiness! > > Then Udayi asked: > > __But, friend Sariputta, > what happiness can it be > if there is no sensation? > > Sariputta replied: > > __That there is no sensation itself is happiness. > > (from What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula, p.43) > > > KKT 20884 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 3:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dukkha Hi Howard, When the Buddha stated the Four Noble Truths, he stated that ageing is dukkha/unsatisfactory. How do you know that ageing is not dukkha/unsatisfactory to the Buddha? If the Buddha saw that ageing is not dukkha, why would he stated that ageing is dukkha when he stated the Four Noble Truths? Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Swee Boon - > > In a message dated 4/2/03 11:51:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... > writes: > > > Now, I understand that aging is dukkha for worldings. But how is it > > that aging is not dukkha for the Buddha? From the time of his > > Enlightenment to the time of his parinibbana, surely the Buddha had > > been aging all the way. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > He sure *had* been. But it didn't bother him in the slightest. Nothing > bothered him. He had no dislikes. He was equanimous, free, and through with > dukkha. > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > I think the Buddha is being absolute here. Aging is dukkha, > > irrespective of whether the person who ages is an arahant or not. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Then the Buddha, after he became the Buddha, was not free of dukkha! > But that is false. The Buddha walked the path to its end. Part of the sutta I > quoted is the following: > > "And what is the cessation of dukkha? From the > > cessation of craving is the cessation of dukkha; and just this noble > > eightfold path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, > > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration -- > > is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha." > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Yet though the Buddha ages, there is no dukkha of sorror, lamentation, > > pain, distress &despair associated with that aging. > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Indeed, no dukkha. Why? Because the Buddha had no aggregates of > clinging. The Buddha clung to nothing and recognized nothing as "me" or > "mine". It was all impersonal for him, and he was *free*. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > I see "unsatisfactoriness" as being intrinsic in the five aggregates. > > Whatever is impermanent is dukkha. > > Regards,> > > NEO Swee Boon > > > ============================== > With metta, > Howard > 20885 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object Hi Larry, op 02-04-2003 08:15 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi again N & J, > > One more. When someone asks a question, isn't the answer kamma > result? When you hear an answer, there is hearing which is vipakacitta and there are other moments, among them thinking, and this is either kusala citta or akusala citta. Nina 20886 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object Hi Larry op 02-04-2003 08:04 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > What about meeting a teacher who really makes a difference in your life? > Is the kamma result aspect of that only the teacher's appearance and > sound of her voice? N: It is kusala vipaka to hear the Dhamma. There are different moments, hearing, vipakacitta, and on account of hearing, considering the Dhamma and this is kusala citta. Nina. 20887 From: Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. It certainly conforms to the texts but, to me, remains unsatisfying insofar as the result of kamma is consciousness of rupa only and no more. It occurred to me that a king and his servant have nearly the same kamma result since they experience nearly the same rupa. It certainly diminishes the supposed potency of kamma. However, someone may be able to come up with a way to make sense out of it. I'll have to wait and see. Larry 20888 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi, Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: We are agreed on many of the points. Let me just pick up a couple: > But a mind trained well by the classical absorptive > meditation > was more effective, and more quickly so, at the vipassana techniques > than a > mind not so trained. Of this I am certain. The Buddha's mind was one so > trained. In fact, he achieved his final awakening while "in" the 4th > jhana. ..... I certainly agree that any kind of kusala, including samatha, may well be a supporting condition (but not a ‘cause’) for the development of satipatthana and vipassana insights. The question is, however, whether ‘highly focussed meditation’ as generally understood is samatha. In order to know, we have to know what samatha is, whether the present moment is kusala or akusala, how it develops and what understanding there is. I don’t understand samatha development to be a matter of ‘doing’ and I don’t think vipassana insights or satipatthana development to be a matter of ‘techniques’ at all. Just looking through your other comments, I think we’re pretty well in agreement and I apologise for any insensitive comments I may have made with regard to any experiences. Just one comment, which I’ve erased by mistake was referring to ‘practicing “in tandem” ‘ as being ‘one way to go’. I question whether there is any choice in the matter,but this also relates to the other thread on ‘choice’;-) Again, understanding all kinds of kusala is the key I believe. Like if a friend here writes about the virtues of the Buddha, it may be a condition to reflect on these qualities with wholesome states and be a condition for calm or samatha at this very moment. This is regardless of any intention or wish to develop samatha or not. On the other hand, one may visit a temple, close one’s eyes and ‘focus’ on the Buddha without any understanding or kusala calm. It just depends on conditions rather than a particular practice, place or way of sitting. This also applies to death or metta or other objects of samatha, I think. With just a little more understanding about how some of these objects can condition calm and without any intention or wish to develop them, I find there are many more opportunities for these wholesome states to arise (amongst the many more unwholesome ones) in a day than in the old days when I’d strictly follow ‘vipassana techniques’ or ‘focussed concentration’ practices with plenty of desire for results and precious little if any understanding about kusala, akusala and anatta, except as labels or terms. I quite appreciate that we can only know for ourselves in these regards and I don’t wish to undermine your or anyone else’s insights or experiences or practices. As you say ‘kusala actions will bear kusala fruit’ regardless. I’ll leave the prescriptive/descriptive comment for now except to say I think that the perspective we have will depend on our understanding of the conditioned nature of phenomena. Metta, Sarah ====================== 20889 From: connie Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 11:33pm Subject: my attachments Hi, Friends. Just want to share my great fortune with you. My daughter gave me a wonderful new son-in-law and his family last week. Yes, I'm happy for the new attachments. Then, today, I got the books Sukin sent me from the Foundation. Thank you very, very much. I purposely left the house a little late tonight for the meditation group, thinking I'd sit in the hall reading while they meditated and just join them for the discussion, but ended up being the first one there. peace, connie, the contented wordling 20890 From: christhedis Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 11:53pm Subject: Re: equanimity Hi James, True that ignorance may result in craving or aversion and thus cause suffering, but once ignorance is overcome, wordly desires can be seen for just what they are.. and thus not result in suffering. Do you agree? If so, rebirth may not be something to avoid. Chris. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" > wrote: > > Hi James and others, > > > > Thanks for your replies. If a person becomes completely equanimous > > then is not even the desire for rebirth overcome? Aren't you > > conditioning yourself to 'overcome life' and this is a good idea? > > Isn't it possible to live in harmony with everything and still > have > > worldly desires? > > > > Isn't complete equanimity too nihilistic? > > > > Chris. > > Hi Chris, > > I think I need to define a bit more about Buddhist goals. First, > those who follow the Eightfold Path don't want to be reborn again > (well, aren't supposed to anyway). They want to end the round of > suffering, which is caused by being reborn again and again, because > they see that it is fueled by ignorance. Who wants to continue to > be ignorant? Not me. I have a feeling of restlessness that this > life is not what it could be or what it should be. Now, this > doesn't mean that I want to disappear or cease to exist, which is > defined as nihilistic. I just want to find out the truth…what > happens after that is of little importance. Other religions try to > figure out where people go after they die, what the soul is like, > and all kinds of other conceptual fantasies; and where does all of > that get you? Nowhere. You are still stuck in the same unhappy > life because of the ignorance here and now. The goal is to > eradicate ignorance and thus eradicate desire in the here and now, > everything else is just fantasy. > > No it is not possible to live in harmony with everything and have > worldly desires. Just think about it. Can you think of one > instance where you would `want' something, and still be in harmony > with everything? I sure can't. Every single action should be based > on `need' not `want'. Even things as simple as eating, clothing, > and shelter should be based on need and not want. As soon as `want' > comes into the equation, things get really messed up. Then there is > suffering and discord with everything. > > I am not sure what you are thinking that equanimity means (and Mike > states in his post with confidence that it is unwholesome…which > leads me to believe we are talking about different things). Chris, > equanimity is the way of the middle path. At one extreme you have > euphoric bliss, which is fruitless; at the other extreme you have > selfish desire, which is also fruitless. Equanimity is in the > middle of those two extremes. It doesn't mean that you become a > zombie and can't function, like your brain has been taken out. It > means that all of your decisions and thoughts are based on need and > wisdom rather than want and ignorance. I hope this explains a bit > more. > > Metta, James 20891 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 11:55pm Subject: Sariputta's Lion Roar (was: Buddhaghosa) Hi Swee Boon, (How are you doing in Singapore? We’re all very jittery here in Hong Kong as every aspect of our lifestyle is affected by the atypical pneumonia outbreak. Yesterday, I was seriously considering leaving Hong Kong like many friends and students, but I think planes and airports are best avoided, so I’m staying put. There is no sign of children anywhere here - not in parks, pools, playgrounds or schools. It’s just like they’ve all disappeared. Quite eerie - our equivalent of 9-11.) Back to some dhamma relief;-). I’ve been meaning to write to you for some time....let me pick up a few of your comments, if I may: --- nidive wrote: > Hi Ken H, ..... > If sati cannot be directed towards selected objects, then don't bother > about vipassana training. It would be impossible. .... Just my point! ..... > > I do not endorse this "no control" viewpoint. Dhammas are able to > control dhammas. Dhammas do not need an 'external force' to be > controlled. .... Ok, we can say cetana (volition) coordinates other states at each moment or directs them at kusala and akusala moments in the javana process. In this sense, it can be said to control other dhammas. We read a useful simile in the Atthasalini (PTS transl p148): “It arises directing associated states, like the chief disciple, the chief carpenter, etc, who fulfil their own and others’ duties. As the chief disciple, seeing the teacher come from afar, himself recites his lessons and makes other pupils recite each his own lesson; when he begins the recitation, the rest follow......” Many other useful descriptions are given. ..... > dishes, know you are washing the dishes.' > > This third type supports vipassana. It strengthens concentration. This > is by my own experience. .... What do you understand vipassana to refer to and do you have any textual support for it? You wrote a long and very interesting post to RobK on your understanding of momentary concentration and I appreciated the sharing of your experience. My question when I read it, however, was how the kind of concentration described (eg with the point of reference, such as the abdomen and noting of all other impingements) differs from non-Buddhist kinds of concentration or focussing such as in Qi Gong, yogic breathing and so on. If you concentrate on the movement whilst shampooing your head, in what way is this wholesome? Are you sure it is the concentration that leads to the wise reflection on anatta? Like now, I’m very distracted, half listening to the news on the War and pneumonia virus as I write, but these states of distraction and nervousness are conditioned and anatta. (Actually, I know the reports will be a condition for more nervousness and yet the lobha keeps me listening, reading reports and so on;-)). No need, as I see it, for any special concentration or change of object for awareness or understanding to arise. Otherwise it seems we’re limiting the scope or opportunity. In this way, no states or realities arising are a hindrance to satipatthana in that any reality can be the object without any selection. ..... > To tell you frankly, I don't even have a single hardcopy of any > Buddhism book. I read ADL because I hit upon it by chance in my local > community library. ..... I find it amazing to read about your accumulations, Swee Boon. Great accumulations to be able to hear and appreciate the dhamma. ..... > > Not to disappoint you, the only KNOWN ANCIENT TEXT I know is: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html > > [4] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of ...... Usually, I think, the references from ati to ‘focused’ relate to sati sampaja~n~na as being discussed in the Way corner. In other words, these are references to the development of sati and panna. I appreciated the sutta you quoted to Christine on the Buddhaghosa thread (DN16, Sariputta’s Lion Roar.) ***** “'Whatever grosser living things are to enter or leave this city, they will all have to do so just by this gate.' In the same way, Lord, I have come to know the lawfulness of the Dhamma. "For, Lord, all the Blessed Ones, Arahats, Fully Enlightened Ones of the past had abandoned the five hindrances, [14] the mental defilements that weaken wisdom; had well established their minds in the four foundations of mindfulness; [15] had duly cultivated the seven factors of enlightenment, and were fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment. "And, Lord, all the Blessed Ones, Arahats, Fully Enlightened Ones of the future will abandon the five hindrances, the mental defilements that weaken wisdom; will well establish their minds in the four foundations of mindfulness; will duly cultivate the seven factors of enlightenment, and will be fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment. "And the Blessed One too, Lord, being at present the Arahat, the Fully Enlightened One, has abandoned the five hindrances, the mental defilements that weaken wisdom; has well established his mind in the four foundations of mindfulness; has duly cultivated the seven factors of enlightenment, and is fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html ***** In other words, the only way to enter ‘this city’ is by the establishment of the ‘four foundations of mindfulness’. You mentioned in another post that you dont’t think ‘studying the Abhidhamma and reflecting intellectually on the dhammas’ is the correct practice. I think as Kom wrote recently, the purpose of any reading, writing or considering is merely to understand present dhammas. If you had never come across books in your library discussing dhammas and anatta, would there be any beginning of insight into any of these phenomena arising now? Thanks for all your welcome posts. I missed them when you took a break. Look forward to more. Metta, Sarah ====== 20892 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love Hi Mike & Christine, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Good questions all, in my opinion. The key is understanding, I > think--the > more understanding, the less attachment and the more attention to the > real > phenomena arising in the present moment. .... Agreed (of course;-)) .... > Despite all my railing against lobha, it is certainly the greatest > motivating factor in all my activities--I'm a total hedonist by > nature--not > at all the goody-goody I may sound like. ..... ;-) ..... > > I would have to agree with you, though, that attachment that leads > deeper > into consideration of the Buddhdhamma can't be all bad! ..... This sounds like the flip-side of the ‘justified dosa’ line. While it’s true that any state can be a condition for any other state and in this sense akusala states can be a condition for kusala, generally speaking, attachment leads to more attachment and any wise consideration of the Buddhadhamma arises in spite of the mass of attachment in between and not as a result of it. I don’t understand or experience the attachment to bring anything of use....just expectations, disappointments and unhappiness when the objects of that attachment fall away. Attachment always ‘looks for’ and clings to its object like the meat in the hot pan or the lime trap for the monkey paws given in the texts. As someone (RobK?) has commented before, the pleasant feeling and other mental states accompanying moments of kusala are quite different and there is no calm accompanying the attachment. On Christine’s other comment about life without attachment, I don’t think it’s helpful to speculate. This is like the speculations about the arahant’s life or the experience of nibbana. It’s true that there is lobha involved in all our decisions, but better to know it and begin to recognize it than to kid ourselves that all our motives are wholesome, I think. And yes, I think that wishing to lessen lobha or dosa just refects more lobha. Never mind, that moment of lobha can be the object of awareness too. We can see how prevalent the clinging to oneself is;-) Good to hear all your comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 20893 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: equanimity Hi Chris, Welcome to DSG and thanks for giving your name. You may get confused for Christine from time to time (in which case we may need a surname initial as well;-), but let's see how we go. I'm appreciating all your questions and the responses given, so I won't interrupt. Anytime you feel like telling us anything further about how you became interested in the dhamma or where you live, for example, we'd be glad to hear. If you get confused by too much Pali, either skip those posts (like James) or keep this simple glossary handy for reference: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Meanwhile, look forward to listening in on more of your discussions. Metta, Sarah ======= --- christhedis wrote: > Hi James, > > True that ignorance may result in craving or aversion and thus cause > suffering, but once ignorance is overcome, wordly desires can be seen > for just what they are.. and thus not result in suffering. Do you > agree? If so, rebirth may not be something to avoid. > > Chris. 20894 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] my attachments Hi Connie (& Sukin), --- connie wrote: > Hi, Friends. > Just want to share my great fortune with you. My daughter gave me a > wonderful new son-in-law and his family last week. Yes, I'm happy for > the new attachments. .... Well, I’m very happy to hear of your good fortune and happiness in your ‘new attachments’. .... > Then, today, I got the books Sukin sent me from the Foundation. Thank > you very, very much. ..... Also anumodana to Sukin - always so thoughtful. .... I purposely left the house a little late tonight > for the meditation group, thinking I'd sit in the hall reading while > they meditated and just join them for the discussion, but ended up being > the first one there. .... Last time we heard from you, you were frustrated with your group for not knowing what you had been learning (or sth similar). Now, that was a good example of attachment and expectation;-) We can see the kindness, sharing and caring are one thing and the attachment and frustration are another;-) As you also said at the time, we can see the different accumulations. I kept a couple of comments Sukin wrote to you which I’ll re-quote and hope (yes, lobha!) it will condition more discussion between you both. Sukin: “So a person may learn the teachings by heart, but if he does not understand it, then it is not pariyatti I think.” “But many can be mistaken to believe that a ‘silent knowledge’ is real knowledge when in reality, lobha is mistaken for sati. And one is unaware of the papanca moving with great force as undercurrent.” ***** Yes, Sukin, that strong undercurrent of papanca is always very strong in my case too. I’m glad to repeat the reminder to myself. .... > peace, > connie, the contented wordling ..... Enjoy it while it lasts;-) Best wishes for a happied married life for your daughter and son-in-law as well. Metta, Sarah ===== 20895 From: Sarah Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wordlings are mad Hi Rahula, KKT, Christine & All, --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > The word << mad >> is the translation > of the Sanskrit word Viparyasa > (Pali: Vipallasa) which means > perversions, perverted views, error. > > The worldling is considered << mad >> > because he/she holds perverted views. > > There are 4 main perverted views: .... In the comy to the Mulapariyaya Sutta with regard to the same perversions of view we read: "..Or, without releasing such a segment of earth, he perceives it as a being (satta) or as belonging to a being. Why does he perceive it in this way? This should not be asked, for the worldling is like a madman. he seizes upon anything he can in whatever way he can. or else, the reason is that he has no regard for the ariyans, etc; or, as the Exalted One will say later on, "because it has not been fully understood by him". (I'm not sure what the Pali is for madman as used here....???) Metta, Sarah ====== 20896 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Victor Thanks for this clarification, and my apologies for misunderstanding you. I don't disagree with what you say in points 1 - 3, in terms of conventional speech, but I think the Buddha adopted a different (i.e., non-conventional) frame of reference. Let me try to explain. The Buddha taught that 'the world' is in fact six different and separate worlds, the worlds of the six senses. In terms of these six worlds, there is no 'computer' as such, since at any moment of consciousness there can only ever be the experience of one sense-door object, foe example, either hardness or visible object (but not both). So there is never a single experience of 'a computer'. There is, however, the idea of 'computer' as the result of the thinking conditioned by separate and discrete experiences of visible object, hardness and other conditioned phenomena through the 5 sense-doors. Thinking builds upon multiple experiences of these single sense-door objects, which occur with extreme rapidity, to create ideas of people and things. From the point of view of the understanding of the dhammas (conditioned phenomena) of the present moment, the question of whether or not there is a computer 'out there' doesn't arise. Only separate and individual presently-arising sense-door objects (such as hardness, visible object) can ever be verified by direct experience. This means that, in terms of direct experience, the 'existence' of entities such as people and things must necessarily be a matter of inference. That's how I see it. Any comments? Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > This is what I was saying: > > 1. A computer is not a concept. > 2. A computer is different from the concept of a computer. > 3. They are closely related but are not one and the same. > 4. They are dependent on each other, and this interdependency is > the > relation between nama and rupa. > > Regards, > Victor 20897 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Mike --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > I'm more and more convinced that the vinaya > (in the sense of the monastic code) was mainly about creating an > environment > for jhaana bhavana--mainly for yogis already accustomed to this > pursuit--with an eye toward eventually turning the yogis' attention > to satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa. I think that the monk's life and samatha bhavana complement each other very well, but I think the vinaya was about lots of things, including prolongation of the sangha, preservation of the teachings, helping monks avoid sliding back to the lay life, to name but some. Also, I do not read the suttas as encouraging samatha bhavana to the exclusion of vipassana bhavana, in other words, as suggesting the development of samatha bhavana first to be followed by vipassana bhavana later. This is not always immediately apparent from an initial reading, but I think can usually be seen on further consideration. Thanks for the passage below from CMA. This I read as reflecting the obvious fact that some people are intent on attaining jhana, while others are interested only in vipassana. Whatever the person sees as important, that is what he develops. What's your take? Jon > Somewhat parenthetically, I thought you might be interested in this > passage > from the copy of CMA that you and Sarah gave me, from the Guide to > the > Process of Absorption, Process of Absorption Javanas in the Mind > Door, Compendium of the Cognitive Process (page 168): > > "In accordance with the way the mind is conveyed > (yathaabhiniihaaravasena): > This means that the absorption citta that arises is conditioned by > the > direction the meditator gives to his mind. If he wishes to attain > the first > jhaana, then he conveys his mind towards that jhaana through the > development > of calm concentration (samatha), and so too for the attainment of > the higher > jhaanas. If the meditator aims at reaching the path and fruit, > then he > conveys his mind towards the path and fruit through the development > of insight (vipassanaa)." 20898 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Howard Here's a passage from Samyutta Nikaya (Bhikkhu Bodhi translation) on suffering: "Bhikkhus, there are these three kinds of suffering. What three? Suffering due to pain, suffering due to formations, suffering due to change. These are the three kinds of suffering. The Noble Eightfold Path is to be developed for direct knowledge of these three kinds of suffering, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning." CMA 45:165(5) In a footnote, Bhikkhu Bodhi summarises the Visuddhi-Magga elaboration on these 3 kinds of suffering as follows: - suffering due to pain (dukkhadukkhataa) is painful bodily and mental suffering; - suffering due to formations (sa.nkhaaradukkhataa) is all conditioned phenomena of the three planes, because they are oppressed by rise and fall; - suffering due to change (viparinaamadukkhataa) is pleasant feeling, which brings suffering when it comes to an end. I don't see your interpretation of suffering (below) as falling into any one of these 3 kinds of suffering. Jon (Btw, I've not heard it suggested that the other 2 characteristics that are common to all conditioned phenomena, namely impermanence and non-self, are relational and non-inherent, so I'm wondering why dukkha should be.) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... ---------------------------------------------------- I agree that it is pointless to cling to something that does not last - pointless and hurtful (given that we cling *because* we want to hold onto it.) But as I see it, the impermanence is a fact about conditioned dhammas that will continue to be the case, but desire and clinging need not continue. When the desiring, aversion, and clinging are gone, what is unsatisfactory about the impermanence and about the impermanent dhammas? Nothing. So, the unsatisfactoriness is dependent on our clinging, not only on the impermanence. The unsatisfactoriness isn't intrinsic to the impermanent conditions, because it doesn't depend only on them. It is realtional. But, yes, all conditioned dhammas are unsatisfactory to worldlings, and they are all unworthy of being clung to by sentient beings. Unsatisfactoriness is basically relational. No things are worth being clung to. That does not make them unsatisfactory except to those who *do* cling. Given that they are not unsatisfactory to all beings under all conditions, the unsatisfactoriness is not intrinsic. ... ----------------------------------------------------------- Exactly what is this dukkha of dhammas? What is it other than the fact that worldlings find all dhammas to be ultimately unsatisfying, because worldlings always eventually want conditions to be other than they are? In any case, whether there is something called "dukkha" that is intrinsic to all conditioned dhammas or not, it is the "dukkha of dissatisfaction" that is the only concern to people. The alleged "intrinsic dukkha" is an idle curiosity, an item of interest only suitable for intellectual time killing, but irrevant to the end of suffering which requires that we see clearly that tanha must end, and that we take the steps to end it. Dukkha as suffering - from the slightest sense of things "just being off" or "being off-kilter" to the greatest extreme of intolerable suffering - is what the Buddha taught the end of, it is what the four noble truths are all about, and the end of dukkha in this sense is what the Dhamma is all about. Certainly the direct awareness of the impermanence, conditionality, and impersonality of all dhammas implies their unworthiness of being grasped at. But that is a relational matter. In fact, not only are they *unworthy* of being grasped at, they are like hot flaming iron ingots if grasped at, and, thus, should not be clung to. They should be let go of. If this is what you mean by "their dukkha", well okay, but the problem lies in the grasping, not in what is grasped. ---------------------------------------------------------- 20899 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha Howard To my understanding, the passage that I think you would like to draw our attention to, namely: "From the cessation of craving is the cessation of dukkha; and just this noble eightfold path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration-- is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha." is to be read as meaning that dukkha ceases at parinibbana. Perhaps the commentary will tell us more. Do you have a reference for the sutta (I couldn't find it on a quick look). Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > From the Nibbedhika Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya From the Nibbedhika Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya "'Dukkha should be known. The cause by which dukkha comes into play should be known. The diversity in dukkha should be known. The result of dukkha should be known. The cessation of dukkha should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of dukkha should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are dukkha; association with what is not loved is dukkha, separation from what is loved is dukkha, not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha. "And what is the cause by which dukkha comes into play? Craving is the cause by which dukkha comes into play. "And what is the diversity in dukkha? There is major dukkha & minor, slowly fading & quickly fading. This is called the diversity in dukkha. "And what is the result of dukkha? There are some cases in which a person overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, grieves, mourns, laments, beats his breast, & becomes bewildered. Or one overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, comes to search outside, 'Who knows a way or two to stop this pain?' I tell you, monks, that dukkha results either in bewilderment or in search. This is called the result of dukkha. "And what is the cessation of dukkha? From the cessation of craving is the cessation of dukkha; and just this noble eightfold path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration-- is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha. "Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns dukkha in this way, the cause by which dukkha comes into play in this way, the diversity of dukkha in this way, the result of dukkha in this way, the cessation of dukkha in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of dukkha." 20900 From: m. nease Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah > > I would have to agree with you, though, that attachment that leads > > deeper > > into consideration of the Buddhdhamma can't be all bad! > ..... > This sounds like the flip-side of the 'justified dosa' line. While it's > true that any state can be a condition for any other state and in this > sense akusala states can be a condition for kusala, generally speaking, > attachment leads to more attachment and any wise consideration of the > Buddhadhamma arises in spite of the mass of attachment in between and not > as a result of it. You're right, of course--the proximity to the teaching shouldn't be confused with the various condtions that led to it. Otherwise I could say that Angulimala's intention to murder the Buddha was good because it led him to the Buddhadhamma. > I don't understand or experience the attachment to > bring anything of use....just expectations, disappointments and > unhappiness when the objects of that attachment fall away. Attachment > always 'looks for' and clings to its object like the meat in the hot pan > or the lime trap for the monkey paws given in the texts. As someone > (RobK?) has commented before, the pleasant feeling and other mental states > accompanying moments of kusala are quite different and there is no calm > accompanying the attachment. Right... > On Christine's other comment about life without attachment, I don't think > it's helpful to speculate. This is like the speculations about the > arahant's life or the experience of nibbana. It's true that there is lobha > involved in all our decisions, but better to know it and begin to > recognize it than to kid ourselves that all our motives are wholesome, I > think. Agreed. > And yes, I think that wishing to lessen lobha or dosa just refects more > lobha. Never mind, that moment of lobha can be the object of awareness > too. We can see how prevalent the clinging to oneself is;-) All good points, Sarah, thanks. mike 20901 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina and Jon, > > Thanks for your input. I agree (I looked it up) but don't > understand. As > I understand it, the color characteristics of Rob's computer are > kamma > result and have an "intrinsic" (consensus) desirability. But the > information retrieving capabilities of the computer are not kamma > result. Information, even dhamma info, has no such "intrinsic" > desirability or value. Does that mean that the value we place on > dhamma info, for example, only arises in mind-door javana? Yes, in the sense that 2 people hearing the same dhamma info will benefit differently according not only to their accumulations but also to how well they hear the info at the time. > What about wealth as kamma result? Is that measured only by the 5 > senses in the moment, not by money in the bank? Good question. We tend to associate money in the bank with pleasant experiences (good vipaka), but it doesn't necessarily follow. A rich person may have a life full of misfortune of various kinds, or (as in one instance given in the teachings) be too mean to spend the money on his/her own comfort and well-being. Likewise, poverty need not mean lots of unpleasant vipaka. > What about meeting a teacher who really makes a difference in your > life? > Is the kamma result aspect of that only the teacher's appearance > and sound of her voice? Yes and no. The general circumstances of the life we are born into, and situations such as meeting a 'good friend', are also influenced by past deeds (kamma), but in absolute terms only the moments of actual sense-door experience are vipaka properly so called. So to take your example to an extreme, there could be a situation of hearing useful dhamma in circumstances that are actually akusala vipaka through eardoor (too loud, screechy voice, etc). The hearing of the useful dhamma would be conditioned by past (kusala) kamma, but the citta actually experiencing the sound would be akusala vipaka (as I understand it -- corrections welcome). Jon 20902 From: m. nease Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Jon, Of course you're right about all of this. Just more of my half-baked speculation and poorly expressed, at that. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 5:08 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha > Mike > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Jon, > ... > > I'm more and more convinced that the vinaya > > (in the sense of the monastic code) was mainly about creating an > > environment > > for jhaana bhavana--mainly for yogis already accustomed to this > > pursuit--with an eye toward eventually turning the yogis' attention > > to satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa. > > I think that the monk's life and samatha bhavana complement each > other very well, but I think the vinaya was about lots of things, > including prolongation of the sangha, preservation of the teachings, > helping monks avoid sliding back to the lay life, to name but some. > > Also, I do not read the suttas as encouraging samatha bhavana to the > exclusion of vipassana bhavana, in other words, as suggesting the > development of samatha bhavana first to be followed by vipassana > bhavana later. This is not always immediately apparent from an > initial reading, but I think can usually be seen on further > consideration. > > Thanks for the passage below from CMA. This I read as reflecting the > obvious fact that some people are intent on attaining jhana, while > others are interested only in vipassana. Whatever the person sees as > important, that is what he develops. > > What's your take? > > Jon > > > Somewhat parenthetically, I thought you might be interested in this > > passage > > from the copy of CMA that you and Sarah gave me, from the Guide to > > the > > Process of Absorption, Process of Absorption Javanas in the Mind > > Door, Compendium of the Cognitive Process (page 168): > > > > "In accordance with the way the mind is conveyed > > (yathaabhiniihaaravasena): > > This means that the absorption citta that arises is conditioned by > > the > > direction the meditator gives to his mind. If he wishes to attain > > the first > > jhaana, then he conveys his mind towards that jhaana through the > > development > > of calm concentration (samatha), and so too for the attainment of > > the higher > > jhaanas. If the meditator aims at reaching the path and fruit, > > then he > > conveys his mind towards the path and fruit through the development > > of insight (vipassanaa)." 20903 From: Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/3/03 8:03:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Victor > > > The Buddha taught that 'the world' is in fact six different and > separate worlds, the worlds of the six senses. In terms of these six > worlds, there is no 'computer' as such, since at any moment of > consciousness there can only ever be the experience of one sense-door > object, foe example, either hardness or visible object (but not > both). > > So there is never a single experience of 'a computer'. There is, > however, the idea of 'computer' as the result of the thinking > conditioned by separate and discrete experiences of visible object, > hardness and other conditioned phenomena through the 5 sense-doors. > Thinking builds upon multiple experiences of these single sense-door > objects, which occur with extreme rapidity, to create ideas of people > and things. > > From the point of view of the understanding of the dhammas > (conditioned phenomena) of the present moment, the question of > whether or not there is a computer 'out there' doesn't arise. Only > separate and individual presently-arising sense-door objects (such as > hardness, visible object) can ever be verified by direct experience. > This means that, in terms of direct experience, the 'existence' of > entities such as people and things must necessarily be a matter of > inference. > > That's how I see it. Any comments? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, I'm aware that moderators generally don't like this sort of response, but I just can't let this post of yours go by without saying "Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!" What you explained here is, in my opinion, *very* clear, and it is presented in a fresh way that I think is wonderful! Thank you for this post. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Jon > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20904 From: Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/3/03 8:15:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Here's a passage from Samyutta Nikaya (Bhikkhu Bodhi translation) on > suffering: > > "Bhikkhus, there are these three kinds of suffering. What three? > Suffering due to pain, suffering due to formations, suffering due to > change. These are the three kinds of suffering. The Noble Eightfold > Path is to be developed for direct knowledge of these three kinds of > suffering, for the full understanding of them, for their utter > destruction, for their abandoning." > CMA 45:165(5) > > In a footnote, Bhikkhu Bodhi summarises the Visuddhi-Magga > elaboration on these 3 kinds of suffering as follows: > - suffering due to pain (dukkhadukkhataa) is painful bodily and > mental suffering; > - suffering due to formations (sa.nkhaaradukkhataa) is all > conditioned phenomena of the three planes, because they are oppressed > by rise and fall; > - suffering due to change (viparinaamadukkhataa) is pleasant > feeling, which brings suffering when it comes to an end. > > I don't see your interpretation of suffering (below) as falling into > any one of these 3 kinds of suffering. > > Jon > ========================= And I don't see why not! ;-) This is a characterization of the diferent sorts of things to which we react with craving or aversion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20905 From: Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha Hi, Jon - I lifted this from the ATI site, after doing a search there on "dukkha". With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/3/03 8:18:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > To my understanding, the passage that I think you would like to draw > our attention to, namely: > > "From the cessation of craving is the cessation of dukkha; and just > this noble eightfold path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, > right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, > right concentration-- is the path of practice leading to the > cessation of dukkha." > > is to be read as meaning that dukkha ceases at parinibbana. Perhaps > the commentary will tell us more. Do you have a reference for the > sutta (I couldn't find it on a quick look). > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20906 From: Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha Hi again, Jon - The reference for the entire sutta on ATI is http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an06-063.html With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20907 From: nidive Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 8:43am Subject: Re: Sariputta's Lion Roar (was: Buddhaghosa) Hi Sarah, >>> Ken H: This third type includes being mindful of (concentrating >>> on), daily activities; eg, 'while you are washing the >>> dishes, know you are washing the dishes.' >> NEO: This third type supports vipassana. It strengthens >> concentration. This is by my own experience. > Sarah: What do you understand vipassana to refer to and do you have > any textual support for it? Majjhima Nikaya 119 Kayagata-sati Sutta Mindfulness Immersed in the Body Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a large number of monks, after the meal, on returning from their alms round, had gathered at the meeting hall when this discussion arose: "Isn't it amazing, friends! Isn't it astounding! -- the extent to which mindfulness immersed in the body, when developed & pursued, is said by the Blessed One who knows, who sees -- the worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- to be of great fruit & great benefit." And this discussion came to no conclusion. Then the Blessed One, emerging from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to the meeting hall and, on arrival, sat down on a seat made ready. As he sat down there, he addressed the monks: "For what topic are you gathered together here? And what was the discussion that came to no conclusion?" "Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall when this discussion arose: 'Isn't it amazing, friends! Isn't it astounding! -- the extent to which mindfulness immersed in the body, when developed & pursued, is said by the Blessed One who knows, who sees -- the worthy one, rightly self-awakened -- to be of great fruit & great benefit.' This was the discussion that had come to no conclusion when the Blessed One arrived." [The Blessed One said:] "And how is mindfulness immersed in the body developed, how is it pursued, so as to be of great fruit & great benefit? "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication (the breath) and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "Furthermore, the monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' Just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain -- wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice -- and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice'; in the same way, the monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "Furthermore, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.' Just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.' And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground -- one day, two days, three days dead -- bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... "Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions -- here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a chest bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' "And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. (The Four Jhanas) "Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder -- saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "And furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time & again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate & pervade, suffuse & fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born of composure. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born & growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated & pervaded, suffused & filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. (Fullness of Mind) "Monks, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing. Just as whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness encompasses whatever rivulets flow down into the ocean, in the same way, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing. "In whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold. "Suppose that a man were to throw a heavy stone ball into a pile of wet clay. What do you think, monks -- would the heavy stone ball gain entry into the pile of wet clay?" "Yes, venerable sir." "In the same way, in whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold. "Now, suppose that there were a dry, sapless piece of timber, and a man were to come along with an upper fire-stick, thinking, 'I'll light a fire. I'll produce heat.' What do you think -- would he be able to light a fire and produce heat by rubbing the upper fire-stick in the dry, sapless piece of timber?" "Yes, venerable sir." "In the same way, in whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold. "Now, suppose that there were an empty, hollow water-pot set on a stand, and a man were to come along carrying a load of water. What do you think -- would he get a place to put his water?" "Yes, venerable sir." "In the same way, in whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold. "Now, in whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is developed, is pursued, Mara gains no entry, Mara gains no foothold. Suppose that a man were to throw a ball of string against a door panel made entirely of heartwood. What do you think -- would that light ball of string gain entry into that door panel made entirely of heartwood?" "No, venerable sir." "In the same way, in whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is developed, is pursued, Mara gains no entry, Mara gains no foothold. "Now, suppose that there were a wet, sappy piece of timber, and a man were to come along with an upper fire-stick, thinking, 'I'll light a fire. I'll produce heat.' What do you think -- would he be able to light a fire and produce heat by rubbing the upper fire-stick in the wet, sappy piece of timber?" "No, venerable sir." "In the same way, in whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is developed, is pursued, Mara gains no entry, Mara gains no foothold. "Now, suppose that there were a water-pot set on a stand, full of water up to the brim so that crows could drink out of it, and a man were to come along carrying a load of water. What do you think -- would he get a place to put his water?" "No, lord." "In the same way, in whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is developed, is pursued, Mara gains no entry, Mara gains no foothold. (An Opening to the Higher Knowledges) "When anyone has developed & pursued mindfulness immersed in the body, then whichever of the six higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. "Suppose that there were a water jar, set on a stand, brimful of water so that a crow could drink from it. If a strong man were to tip it in any way at all, would water spill out?" "Yes, lord." "In the same way, when anyone has developed & pursued mindfulness immersed in the body, then whichever of the six higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. "Suppose there were a rectangular water tank -- set on level ground, bounded by dikes -- brimful of water so that a crow could drink from it. If a strong man were to loosen the dikes anywhere at all, would water spill out?" "Yes, lord." "In the same way, when anyone has developed & pursued mindfulness immersed in the body, then whichever of the six higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. "Suppose there were a chariot on level ground at four crossroads, harnessed to thoroughbreds, waiting with whips lying ready, so that a skilled driver, a trainer of tamable horses, might mount and -- taking the reins with his left hand and the whip with his right -- drive out & back, to whatever place & by whichever road he liked; in the same way, when anyone has developed & pursued mindfulness immersed in the body, then whichever of the six higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. (Ten Benefits) "Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, ten benefits can be expected. Which ten? "[1] He conquers displeasure & delight, and displeasure does not conquer him. He remains victorious over any displeasure that has arisen. "[2] He conquers fear & dread, and fear & dread do not conquer him. He remains victorious over any fear & dread that have arisen. "[3] He is resistant to cold, heat, hunger, thirst, the touch of gadflies & mosquitoes, wind & sun & creeping things; to abusive, hurtful language; he is the sort that can endure bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, sharp, stabbing, fierce, distasteful, disagreeable, deadly. "[4] He can attain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhanas -- heightened mental states providing a pleasant abiding in the here & now. "[5] He wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space. He dives in & out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. "[6] He hears -- by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human -- both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far. "[7] He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind. "[8] He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details. "[9] He sees -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings -- who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings -- who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- he sees beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. "[10] Through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here & now. "Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, these ten benefits can be expected." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. Revised: Sun 8 December 2002 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn119.html > If you concentrate on the movement whilst shampooing your head, > in what way is this wholesome? Are you sure it is the concentration > that leads to the wise reflection on anatta? It is the concentration on the arising and dissolution of volition that leads to the wise reflection on anatta. I discern the arising and dissolution of volition from hand position A to B, from B to C, from C to D, from D to E and back to A from E, all these taking place in just a moment of seconds. I do not think that I would be able to discern such a rapid and repetitive arising and dissolution of volition without right concentration. When I realized the nature of volition as such, I realized that volition is not-self. There is no self that IS the volition or POSSESSES the volition. > In other words, the only way to enter `this city' is by the > establishment of the `four foundations of mindfulness'. Enough said, Sarah. "And the Blessed One too, Lord, being at present the Arahat, the Fully Enlightened One, has (A) abandoned the five hindrances, the mental defilements that weaken wisdom; has (B) well established his mind in the four foundations of mindfulness; has (C) duly cultivated the seven factors of enlightenment, and is fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment." > If you had never come across books in your library discussing dhammas > and anatta, would there be any beginning of insight into any of these > phenomena arising now? Certainly not, Sarah. But theory and intellectual manipulations would not make today an Enlightenment Day. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 20908 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 9:44am Subject: Dhamma Issues 5, no 2. Disappearance of Ariyans Dhamma Issues 5, no 2. Disappearance of Ariyans The Commentary to the Sutta ³The Gotamid², in the Gradual Sayings, the Manorathapúraní, gives an additional explanation: ³The words vassasahassam, thousand years, that are used here, refer only to the arahats who were endowed with the four analytical knowledges (patisambiddhas[2]). But when we take into consideration the following thousand years, there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka (who only developed insight and did not attain jhåna). In the next period of thousand years (the third period) there are anågåmis (who have attained the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner). In the next period of thousand years (the fourth period) there are sakadågåmís (who have attained the second stage of enlightenment, the stage of the once-returner). In the next period of thousand years (the fifth period) there are sotåpannas (who have attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the streamwinner). Thus, the saddhamma, the true dhamma, of the level of pativedha, realization, can, according to this reckoning, last for five thousand years. Evenso pariyatti dhamma (of the level of intellectual understanding) can endure for five thousand years. Without pariyatti dhamma there can be no pativedha dhamma [3]. This means that when pariyatti dhamma has disappeared the monkhood will have changed into something else.² It can be concluded that at the present time, which is the third period of thousand years in the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama, nobody has the excellent qualities of the degree of the arahat, and the highest attainment will only be that of the anågåmí. In the Sumangalavilåsiní, Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², III, no 28, The Faith that satisfied (Sampasådaniya Sutta), the decline of Buddhism in the Buddha era of a former Buddha, Kassapa Buddha, has been explained, not the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama. We read: ³... the lineage of recluses dressed in white is not able to cause the endurance of the dispensation since the time of the Buddha Kassapa. The dispensation could endure only thousand years with those who have attained the four analytical knowledges, another thousand years with those who had the six supranatural powers (abhiññås 4), another thousand years with those who had three knowledges (tevijjå 5), another thousand years with those who had ³dry insight² (sukkha vipassakas), and another thousand years with those who observe the Påtimokkha. Thus, the Dispensation declined beginning with the penetration of the truths by the bhikkhus who came afterwards, and the transgression of the precepts by the bhikkhus who came afterwards. Since that time the appearance of another Buddha had no obstruction anymore [6] . Footnotes 2. All arahats have eradicated defilements completely, but arahats have different degrees of excellent qualities. Only the arahat with the highest attainment has the four analytical knowledges. 3. The ³Dispeller of Delusion² (the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Commentary to Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge) is one of the texts explaining about the disappearance of the teachings. We read (431): ³For there are three kinds of disappearance: disappearance of theoretical understanding (pariyatti), disappearance of penetration (pativedha) and disappearance of practice (patipatti). Herein, pariyatti is the three parts of the Tipiìaka; the penetration is the penetration of the Truths; the practice is the way....² 4.These are: magical powers, divine ear, penetration of the minds of others, divine eye, remembrance of former existences and extinction of all defilements. 5.These are: remembrance of former lives, divine eye, extinction of all defilements. 6. When the dispensation has disappeared completely there are conditions for the appearance of another Buddha. ***** 20909 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 9:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues 5, no 1. Disappearance of Ariyans Dear James, op 02-04-2003 21:54 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I think what is interesting about this information isn't the > men/women issue, but something far more revealing: > > 1.The omniscience of the Buddha > 2.The existence of free will > 3.That the future isn't predetermined and there can be a variety of > outcomes based on actions…and the Buddha could know all of the > outcomes. > 4.Therefore, actions or decisions are not completely conditioned by > past, present, or future karma. > 5.Therefore, free will can exist without a self. N:Excellent post and good summary of recent discussions about these issues. Yes, when I am shouting or when I am helping, there are different volitions. They are not self, fall away completely. Each moment volition is different because of conditions, our accumulations. Interesting, because when someone is full of consideration, metta, he seems a different personality from the moments he was shouting. It can surprise us. J: Are there any additional Dhamma Issues which address free will vs. > predetermination? Or the omniscience of the Buddha? N: No. The next ones are rather miscellaneous, depending on what people brought up: final passing away of a layman who is arahat (King Milinda's Dilemmas), Insight knowledge of kamma and result, sixfold Path, incest father and daughter, the Buddha's last meal, etc. The second Bulletin is entirely about latent tendencies, I am looking forward to translate this. I like to learn more about them. Nina. 20910 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 9:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Everyman's Ethics, adversities. Dear Christine and all, Dave's qu. was an occasion for me too to look at this sutta. Thank you, you are always very helpful for the right quotes and giving links (although I am not a webgoer). Some people may wonder, what is Buddhist about this, do other religions not teach all this too? Yes, in a way, but through the Dhamma there is another dimension added. We should look at the end and also the last verse. Here the commentary elaborates on metta through actions. At the end we read about metta (namely, generosity, sweet speech, helpfulness, impartiality to all), being the lynchpin in a moving car. What is new? Knowing more about your own cittas. If you know wholesome as wholesome and unwholesome as unwholesome, wholesomeness, kusala, can be developed. I read in the last verse: Who is energetic and not indolent In misfortune unshaken Flawless in manner and intelligent Such a one to honour may attain. My PTS translates instead of misfortune: unshaken in adversities. Here I think of the eight worldly conditions: and the four which are adversities: loss, blame, dishonour and bodily misery. Do you remember what A. Sujin said last time: we cannot understand the suttas without satipatthana. Satipatthana is actually always implied in each sutta. We have to apply the sutta to this moment, this is the message it contains. I am not unshaken by adversities, panna is still poor. But even intellectual understanding can help us. You have to face many adversities in your work. Sarah brought up the issue of cancer, and Lodewijk and I had a heated discussion about it. It is a delicate, sensitive issue. He said, but one has to be treated, you cannot say there is no cancer. I explained that this is quite true, but that it can be helpful to also contemplate different cittas experiencing objects through the six doors. In between going to the hospital or in the waiting room, there can be brief moments of wise attention: thinking of cancer is one moment, seeing is another moment, and all such moments do not last. Also rupas we call cancer are arising and falling away. We do not stay away from doctor and medicines, chemo's, of course not. But, considering in between different realities can help us to less identify ourselves with this or that calamity, to have a somewhat more detached, objective attitude. It can to a degree take away the pain and the worry. Even our aversion: it is conditioned and arises for a moment, but it does not stay. Again, even if we have only intellectual understanding, stemming from listening, helps us already. A friend found much comfort with A. Sujin's attitude of metta and compassion, and above all with the Dhamma, inspite of all the chemos. Before we learnt the Dhamma it was always: the outside object, the situation, and now we can begin to see cittas which react to such objects. Maybe just for a few moments, and then we are carried away again, I find. We read: Yes, we can never hear enough Dhamma, it sinks in so slowly.But we hear what we had not heard before. I also like this one: too hot, too cold, about putting off work. This helps to have a sense of urgency, not delaying kusala, not delaying to listen more, study more, considering and verifying in our life what we heard. Reminds me of my own shortcomings. Thus, of citta now, and that is the message of this sutta and all suttas. Nina. op 02-04-2003 11:57 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > You ask: "Well, let me ask another question then, if love of family > is a form > of attachment, how is it that a good Buddhist should treat his spouse > and children?" > > This excerpt from the Sigalovada Sutta may throw some light on how a > follower of the Dhamma is encouraged to act towards family members. > Everyman's Ethics 20911 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: equanimity Dear Chris, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: Hi James, True that ignorance may result in craving or aversion and thus cause suffering, but once ignorance is overcome, wordly desires can be seen for just what they are.. and thus not result in suffering. Do you agree? If so, rebirth may not be something to avoid. Chris. KKT: The question is: Once ignorance is overcome, is there still worldly desires? Nibbana is also referred by such terms: __Viraga = Absence of desire __Tanhakkhaya = Extinction of Thirst Tanha = Thirst, craving. (tanha is the << fuel >> for existence) The answer of Sariputta to the question: What is Nibbana? << The extinction of desire, the extinction of hatred, the extinction of illusion >> Metta, KKT 20912 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 1:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 4/3/03 8:03:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > Victor ... > > That's how I see it. Any comments? > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Jon, I'm aware that moderators generally don't like this > sort of > response, but I just can't let this post of yours go by without > saying "Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!" Well, of course it's fine when it's the moderator's own post that's being referred to ;-). No seriously, I'm very glad you found it useful, Howard. Thanks for the kind words. Jon > What you explained here is, in my opinion, > *very* clear, and it is presented in a fresh way that I think is > wonderful! Thank you for this post. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > Jon > > > =========================== > With metta, > Howard 20913 From: Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 4:19pm Subject: Way 71, Clear Comprehension 6 Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension (purpose, suitability, resort, non-delusion), http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html 6. Clear comprehension of cleansing the body Uccara passavakamme = In defecating and in urinating" means: When the time is come, when the time is proper, if one does not defecate or urinate, then, one's body perspires, one's eyes reel, one's mind is not collected, and illness in the form of sharp pain, fistula, and so forth arise for one. But to one who defecates and urinates at the proper time none of these discomforts, disadvantages, troubles and illnesses arise. This is the sense in which this matter should be understood, and in this sense should clear comprehension of purpose in defecation and urination be taken. By defecating or urinating in an improper place, one commits disciplinary offences, one goes on getting a bad name, and one endangers one's life. [Tika} Fields occupied or frequented by humans and places occupied or frequented by devas, and deva-sanctuaries, are improper. Angry men and spirits cause even death to those who defecate or urinate in such places. By using such places for cleansing the waste of the body bhikkhus and bhikkunis become guilty of the disciplinary offences of minor wrong-doing (dukkata) or of acts expiable by confession (pacittiya) according to the circumstances. But to one evacuating the bowels or the bladder in a place suitable for such evacuation those offences or troubles just mentioned above have no reference. And by way of that fitness of place, clear comprehension of suitability should be understood. By the non-abandoning of the subject of meditation, clear comprehension of resort should be understood. Within there is no doer of the act of defecation or urination. Only by the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity defecation and urination occur, just as in a matured boil, by the bursting of the boil, pus and blood come out without any kind of wishing to come out and just as from an overfull water-pot water comes out without any desire for coming out, so too, the feces and urine accumulated in the abdomen and the bladder are pressed out by the force of the process of oscillation. Certainly this feces-and-urine coming out thus is neither that bhikkhu's own nor another's. It is just bodily excretion. When from a water-vessel or calabash a person throws out the old water, the water thrown out is neither his nor other's. It simply forms parts of a process of cleansing. In the form of reflection proceeding in this way clear comprehension of non-delusion should be understood. 20914 From: Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as desirable/undesirable object Hi Jon and Nina, Here's something that may apply to our discussion: CMA p. 201 (guide): Supportive (upatthambaka) kamma is kamma which does not gain an opportunity to produce its own result, but which, when some other kamma is exercising a productive function, supports it either by enabling it to produce its pleasant or painful results over an extended time without obstruction or by reinforcing the continuum of aggegates produced by another kamma. For example, when through the productive function of wholesome kamma one is reborn as a human being, supportive kamma may contribute to the extension of one's life-span and ensure that one is healthy and well provided with the necessities of life. L: So productive kamma would account for major (conceptual) differences between being reborn as a king or the king's servant, or meeting a kalyanamita, and supportive kamma, in providing necessities of life, would account for Rob's no doubt intrinsically desirable computer. Larry 20915 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 5:23pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues 5, no 1. Disappearance of Ariyans --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dhamma Issues 5, no 1. But since, Ånanda, women have gone forth... in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, now, Ånanda, the Brahma-faring will not last long, true dhamma will endure only for five hundred years.. Dhamma Issues 5, no 2. The dispensation could endure only thousand years with those who have attained the four analytical knowledges.. =============== Hi Nina I don't know if I've missed something in these posts, But what aspect of the teaching, or what attainments disappear after the first 500 years, because of the Nuns ordination? Thanks Steve 20916 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 7:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Dear Howard and Jon, I join Howard in his appreciation for Jon's post. I printed it out for Lodewijk, because we just discussed this and I have great trouble explaining this to Lodewijk. Perhaps we are too close, and Jon's words will help him more. No computer is still O.K., but, there is no Nina, and he starts yelling. Are there other approaches that can help him? Nina. op 03-04-2003 17:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> >> From the point of view of the understanding of the dhammas >> (conditioned phenomena) of the present moment, the question of >> whether or not there is a computer 'out there' doesn't arise. Only >> separate and individual presently-arising sense-door objects (such as >> hardness, visible object) can ever be verified by direct experience. >> This means that, in terms of direct experience, the 'existence' of >> entities such as people and things must necessarily be a matter of >> inference. >> >> That's how I see it. Any comments? >> > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Jon, I'm aware that moderators generally don't like this sort of > response, but I just can't let this post of yours go by without saying > "Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!" What you explained here is, in my opinion, *very* > clear, and it is presented in a fresh way that I think is wonderful! Thank > you for this post. > ------------------------------------------------------ 20917 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 7:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Larry, op 03-04-2003 08:15 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for your reply. It certainly conforms to the texts but, to me, > remains unsatisfying insofar as the result of kamma is consciousness of > rupa only and no more. N: I understand what you mean. There is more to it.There are many different rupas experienced through the five senses. Like being in a Dhamma country, such as Thailand. How did I come there and meet the good friend in Dhamma? Former kamma according to the texts. When we analyse what is actually happening: colour, sound, etc, experienced through the sensedoors. As Jon said: separate and individual presently-arising sense-door objects (such as > hardness, visible object) can ever be verified by direct experience. > This means that, in terms of direct experience, the 'existence' of > entities such as people and things must necessarily be a matter of > inference.> In conventional language we say, it is my kamma, referring to the whole of events, impressions, situation. It is not wrong, but when we are more precise there are ,separate and individual presently-arising sense-door objects.> L: It occurred to me that a king and his servant have nearly the same kamma result since they experience nearly the same > rupa. It certainly diminishes the supposed potency of kamma. N:We cannot tell, we cannot pinpoint. Nobody experiences the same rupa. It may only seem that way. How can we know what each individual experiences at this or that moment? Nina. 20918 From: m. nease Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 8:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Jon, Howard and Nina, In the spirit of a general uprising against the Mods: Excellent. My apologies to the Mods. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom > Dear Howard and Jon, > I join Howard in his appreciation for Jon's post. I printed it out for > Lodewijk, because we just discussed this and I have great trouble explaining > this to Lodewijk. Perhaps we are too close, and Jon's words will help him > more. No computer is still O.K., but, there is no Nina, and he starts > yelling. Are there other approaches that can help him? > Nina. > > op 03-04-2003 17:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >> > >> From the point of view of the understanding of the dhammas > >> (conditioned phenomena) of the present moment, the question of > >> whether or not there is a computer 'out there' doesn't arise. Only > >> separate and individual presently-arising sense-door objects (such as > >> hardness, visible object) can ever be verified by direct experience. > >> This means that, in terms of direct experience, the 'existence' of > >> entities such as people and things must necessarily be a matter of > >> inference. > >> > >> That's how I see it. Any comments? > >> > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Jon, I'm aware that moderators generally don't like this sort of > > response, but I just can't let this post of yours go by without saying > > "Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!" What you explained here is, in my opinion, *very* > > clear, and it is presented in a fresh way that I think is wonderful! Thank > > you for this post. > > ------------------------------------------------------ 20919 From: m. nease Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 8:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Dear Nina (and Larry), ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom > Hi Larry, > op 03-04-2003 08:15 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > Thanks for your reply. It certainly conforms to the texts but, to me, > > remains unsatisfying insofar as the result of kamma is consciousness of > > rupa only and no more. > N: I understand what you mean. There is more to it.There are many different > rupas experienced through the five senses. Like being in a Dhamma country, > such as Thailand. How did I come there and meet the good friend in Dhamma? > Former kamma according to the texts> When we analyse what is actually > happening: colour, sound, etc, experienced through the sensedoors. This is very interesting. It seems to me a very clear example of the crux we often discuss between the language (method?--Ven. Bodhi's word) of the suttas vs. that of the abhidhamma. > As Jon > said: > > separate and individual presently-arising sense-door objects (such as > > hardness, visible object) can ever be verified by direct experience. > > This means that, in terms of direct experience, the 'existence' of > > entities such as people and things must necessarily be a matter of > > inference.> > In conventional language we say, it is my kamma, referring to the whole of > events, impressions, situation. It is not wrong, but when we are more > precise there are separate and individual presently-arising sense-door > objects.> Is there an explicit reference in the Dhamma/Vinaya to the difference between (or especially the equal validity of) 'conventional' and 'precise' language? To me 'the whole of events, impressions, situation' must always refer only to papa~nca--'stories'? As you said above, "How did I come there and meet the good friend in Dhamma? Former kamma according to the texts". Is there an explicit reference in the Abhidhamma to the difference between (or especially the equal validity of) 'conventional' and 'precise' language? I think Robert K. and probably others have maybe supplied these in the past but I can't put my finger on them. I think it would be useful to clarify this apparent gap between Dhamma and Abhidhamma. Hope I haven't put my foot in my mouth yet again... mike 20920 From: Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 10:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Nina, Some would say there really is a computer out there but it has no inherent self existence, no solid, permanent, monolithic identity. It both exists and does not exist relationally, as Howard would say. Mostly because of the impermanence of the existence experience. The middle way is empty of inherent existence but not empty of relative existence. Impermanent but not nothing. Ungraspable experience. Wide open. Hardness, visible object, computers, and Nina are all the same in this regard. Anatta. Larry ---------------- Nina wrote: Dear Howard and Jon, I join Howard in his appreciation for Jon's post. I printed it out for Lodewijk, because we just discussed this and I have great trouble explaining this to Lodewijk. Perhaps we are too close, and Jon's words will help him more. No computer is still O.K., but, there is no Nina, and he starts yelling. Are there other approaches that can help him? Nina. 20921 From: Star Kid Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 10:35pm Subject: Thanks Kom! Dear Kom, Thanks for your letter. My presentation was successful although there were some technical problems. I used to think that adults really can do better when facing scary movies, it's beause my mother always says I'm silly when I feel scared. Thank you for your advice based on a Buddist point of view on my problem, Kom! I think I can enjoy well and play well in the coming competition, I like to play basketball and I was a team member in the past two years. However, my mother didn't alow me to play any more because I started to have many subjects to follow. Second, my leg got hurt because of too much exercise and training. So I have alrady stopped playing it for more than half year and the coming competition would be the first time for me to play it again after a long rest. The above is about the cycle you mention before, cause and result. Next Monday I would have my Common test on Maths, since I was very busy before, I didn't do any Maths problems, so I have to do many many today and tomorrow...... Last, I would like to ask what will happen after the world ends? Second, why were there human beings after the ice age? Is Buddhism interested in the beginning and ending of the world? If not, why? Kimmy write on 22/3 send on 4/4 20922 From: Star Kid Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 11:42pm Subject: KoM~ ^.^ Dear Kom, I am quite busy in these few weeks, so I reply to you just now, I hope you don't mind. Can I ask you a few questions? Why do you think that we can keep ourselves well by being mindful, by not being forgetful to give? I do think human life is precious! I want to ask what'll happen after death? You'll meet the god, the devil or you'll be a human again? I think we don't know when we'll die, maybe today, tomorrow or several years later, so we must be good all the time and we shouldn't be afraid of death, anyway it'll come! Are you afraid of death? Metta, kiana. 20923 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Apr 3, 2003 11:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Some would say there really is a computer out there but it has no > inherent self existence, no solid, permanent, monolithic identity. It > both exists and does not exist relationally, as Howard would say. > Hardness, visible object, computers, and Nina are all the same in this > regard. Anatta. ___________ Dear Larry, You say above that in some ways both Nina and computer - concepts - can be considered the same as hardness or visble object (rupayatana). I think this is very different from the Dhamma. The Udanaatthakatha (trans. masefield p.878)Blind from birth chapter: "since they do not know Dhamma, they do not know that which is not Dhamma either. ....... they neither know dhamma to be a thing having an owm nature (sabhava), nor do they know that which is not dhamma to be a thing lacking an own nature.(Dhammam sabhavadhammam..adhammam asabhavadhammam) And as such they declare a thing having an own nature as though it were a thing lacking an own nature....""endquote Hardness and visble object are paramattha dhammas - sabhava. Nina is concept, asabhavadhammam. The crux of the teaching depends upon resolving this difference. "when the resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements (dhatus), the characteristic of not-self become apparent in its true nature: Visuddhimagga xx15 "Such forms as woman or man are local forms of speech. ..In those who have not fully understood what a physical base is there comes to be the misinterpretation "this is really a woman.." Note 4 visud. vii (pm) I think there really are no women or Nina or computer, Larry. But there really are hardness, visible object, sound , hearing, thinking, desire, anger..... "as with the assembly of parts the word chariot is countenanced, So, when the aggregates are present, A being: is said in common usage."(samyutta I, 135) These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. RobertK 20924 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 0:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [Pali] sanna, perception, aperception, consciousness cognizing Hi Frank, I've just been looking at the passages you quoted from MN. Sorry for the delay and hope you're still around;-) ..... --- Frank Kuan wrote: > > I re-discovered a great passage in the M today: > > M43 mahavedalla (greater series of q & a) > > p. 389 b.bodhi version: > > "Feeling, perception, and consciousness, friend - > these states are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is > impossible to separate each of these states from the > others in order to describe the difference between > then. For what one feels, that one perceives; and what > one perceives, that one cognizes. That is why these > states are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is > impossible to separate each of these states from the > others in order to describe the difference between > them." ..... There is a summary note from MA (the comy) at the back: "MA: Wisdom has been excluded from this exchange because the intention is to show only the states that are conjoined on every occasion of consciousness." ..... S:In other words, it doesn't mean the different characteristics cannot be known, but when they arise with a citta experiencing an object they are always 'conjoined', being universal cetasikas (mental factors accompanying all cittas). ..... F:> also, on p. 388, on the section of consciousness: > "what does it cognize? It cognizes 'this is pleasant'; > it cognizes: 'this is painful'; it cognizes: 'this is > neither painful nor pleasant' > > commnent: > Seems like the sutta is implying the primary function > of vinnana is to differentiate the 3 types of feeling, > rather than just a bare awareness of the 6 types of > external media coming into contact with the 6 internal > sense organs. ..... S: I think we need to read this sutta in light of other suttas as well and also in light of the preceding passage which indicates that it is 'one who is wise'(pa~n~navaa), ie the sotapanna or other ariyan disciple that is being referred to. The summary note from MA here is: "MA: The question concerns the consciousness with which the person described as "one who is wise" examines formations; that is, the consciousness of insight by which that person arrived (at his attainment), the mind which does the work of meditation. Ven Sariputta answers by explaining the meditation subject of feeling, in the way it has come down in the Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness (MN 10.32)." ..... S: Any reality can be the object of sati and it'll depend on conditions what reality is experienced and known. Sometimes (often) feelings are given as examples because of their importance and obviousness perhaps, but other times rupas or other mental factors such as the kilesa are frequently referred to. Indeed, just a little later in the sutta (p391), we read about the five faculties with their separate fields or domains of experience - in other words the external sense data (or media) coming into contact with the internal sense organs. In between these two sections (p390) we read about right view: ***** "Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?" "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and wise attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view." (MA: 'parato ghosa' is the teaching of beneficial Dhamma. these two conditions are necessary for disciples to arrive at the right view of insight and the right view of the supramundane path. But paccekabuddhas arrive at their enlightenment and fully enlightened Buddhas at omniscience solely in dependence on wise attention without "the voice of another".) ***** Actually, there is a lot of material in these interesting Q&A which I'd be happy to discuss further with you Frank. Metta, Sarah ======= 20925 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Mike (& Jon), As I was writing back to Frank and quoting the summaries from MA just now, I was reflecting on how one’s understanding of these same commentaries, suttas or even of abhidhamma is reflected in a translation. You quoted an interesting passage from CMA from the commentary or Guide section that B.Bodhi helpfully adds to clarify the main text: --- "m. nease" wrote: >from the Guide to the > Process of Absorption, Process of Absorption Javanas in the Mind Door, > Compendium of the Cognitive Process (page 168): > > "In accordance with the way the mind is conveyed > (yathaabhiniihaaravasena): > This means that the absorption citta that arises is conditioned by the > direction the meditator gives to his mind. If he wishes to attain the > first > jhaana, then he conveys his mind towards that jhaana through the > development > of calm concentration (samatha), and so too for the attainment of the > higher > jhaanas. If the meditator aims at reaching the path and fruit, then he > conveys his mind towards the path and fruit through the development of > insight (vipassanaa)." ..... It’ll just depend on the understanding of the reader whether when one reads these conventionally worded phrases there is any idea of a self that can take action, aim or convey his mind towards anything with any idea of choice. I’m just beginning to look at the new translation of the comy to the Abhidammatthasangaha by Jon’s very dear old friend,R.Wijeratne and R.Gethin. For the same section, we read: “Depending on the direction: according to the directing of consciousness by the cultivation of calm and insight towards the form and formless (attainments) or the transcendant paths and fruits.....” ..... This is clearer or less likely to be misleading I think. When I start reading about absorptions, fruitions, attainments and so on, I quickly lose interest and forget what I’ve just read. Perhaps like your painting skills, they can be experienced at any time when sufficient wisdom and skill has been developed. Still the consciousness arising depends on conditions and is anatta. If we look back at the original text (pali and transl) in CMA, p167, ‘yathaabhiniihaaravasena’-in accordance with the way the mind is conveyed, is describing the conditions in the process of cittas and the process of appanaajavana (absorption javanas), with the possible permutations with or without supramundane cittas etc. Again, I read it as descriptive of the processes and the extraordinary knowledge the Buddha was able to convey. Let me know if you have any other comments or anything further you had in mind. Just don’t ask me any tricky qus about the process of absorption;-) Metta, Sarah ======== 20926 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Jon, It was not necessary to apologize to me at all. The frame of reference that you mentioned is the frame of reference that you have adopted. With that kind of frame of reference, the thinking and discussion tends to be focused on whether things exist or not. As I see it, that kind of reference frame is complicated and convoluted. I don't see that the Buddha adopted anything like that. I see it as irrelevant to the Buddha's teaching. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Thanks for this clarification, and my apologies for misunderstanding > you. I don't disagree with what you say in points 1 - 3, in terms of > conventional speech, but I think the Buddha adopted a different > (i.e., non-conventional) frame of reference. Let me try to explain. > > The Buddha taught that 'the world' is in fact six different and > separate worlds, the worlds of the six senses. In terms of these six > worlds, there is no 'computer' as such, since at any moment of > consciousness there can only ever be the experience of one sense- door > object, foe example, either hardness or visible object (but not > both). > > So there is never a single experience of 'a computer'. There is, > however, the idea of 'computer' as the result of the thinking > conditioned by separate and discrete experiences of visible object, > hardness and other conditioned phenomena through the 5 sense- doors. > Thinking builds upon multiple experiences of these single sense- door > objects, which occur with extreme rapidity, to create ideas of people > and things. > > From the point of view of the understanding of the dhammas > (conditioned phenomena) of the present moment, the question of > whether or not there is a computer 'out there' doesn't arise. Only > separate and individual presently-arising sense-door objects (such as > hardness, visible object) can ever be verified by direct experience. > This means that, in terms of direct experience, the 'existence' of > entities such as people and things must necessarily be a matter of > inference. > > That's how I see it. Any comments? > > Jon 20927 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 5:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Nina, Nina, when you said "there is no Nina", you uttered a blatant falsehood. It is understandable that Lodewijk yelled. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard and Jon, > I join Howard in his appreciation for Jon's post. I printed it out for > Lodewijk, because we just discussed this and I have great trouble explaining > this to Lodewijk. Perhaps we are too close, and Jon's words will help him > more. No computer is still O.K., but, there is no Nina, and he starts > yelling. Are there other approaches that can help him? > Nina. 20928 From: m. nease Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Sarah, I thought you and Jon would pick up on this. I think this explains it--the 'Guides' following each section are entirely BB's interpretations, aren't they--or are they? This would explain their idiomatic differences from the rest of the text. If so, from what is the alternative translation below? I'd been taking them for his translations of a previous commentary. I'll' regard BB's 'Guides' as highly suspect in the future. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah > "Depending on the direction: according to the directing of consciousness > by the cultivation of calm and insight towards the form and formless > (attainments) or the transcendant paths and fruits....." > ..... > This is clearer or less likely to be misleading I think. This certainly makes more sense by my understanding. I wonder if this is a more literal interpretation or does it reflect the view of the translator? If the former, then the very loose interpretation of BB is seriously compromised by this kind of editorialising. I've often wondered whether his comments are original or his own. IF he is really injecting such concepts as "meditator"..."the direction the meditator gives to his mind"..."he wishes to attain the first jhaana"..."he conveys his mind" etc., this is a very serious distortion of the meaning of the original text--that is, a confusion of 'the abhidhamma method' with 'the sutta method'. > When I start > reading about absorptions, I find jhaana an interesting subject and especially enjoyed Kom's recent post on the subject. I always do keep in mind, though, that jhaana bhavana was commonplace before the birth of the Bodhisattva and is a completely different thing from satipa.t.thaana vipassanaa bhavana. > fruitions, attainments and so on, I quickly > lose interest and forget what I've just read. This is about the same for me, though I do like the stories of attainments and so on in the Dhammavinaya and find them quite inspiring. > Perhaps like your painting > skills, they can be experienced at any time when sufficient wisdom and > skill has been developed. Still the consciousness arising depends on > conditions and is anatta. > If we look back at the original text (pali and transl) in CMA, p167, > 'yathaabhiniihaaravasena'-in accordance with the way the mind is conveyed, > is describing the conditions in the process of cittas and the process of > appanaajavana (absorption javanas), with the possible permutations with or > without supramundane cittas etc. > > Again, I read it as descriptive of the processes and the extraordinary > knowledge the Buddha was able to convey. This is the interpretation that makes sense to me, too--certainly according to 'the abhidhamma method', which is what I would expect to find in this context. > Let me know if you have any other comments or anything further you had in > mind. Just don't ask me any tricky qus about the process of absorption;-) That's a deal--or any other process--these details are still way beyond me. mike 20929 From: m. nease Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha p.s. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah > You quoted an interesting passage from CMA from the commentary or Guide > section that B.Bodhi helpfully adds to clarify the main text: "Helpfully"? I wonder. mike 20930 From: Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 2:50am Subject: No Nina (Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha) Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/3/03 10:59:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard and Jon, > I join Howard in his appreciation for Jon's post. I printed it out for > Lodewijk, because we just discussed this and I have great trouble > explaining > this to Lodewijk. Perhaps we are too close, and Jon's words will help him > more. No computer is still O.K., but, there is no Nina, and he starts > yelling. Are there other approaches that can help him? > Nina. > =========================== Remember how the Buddha withheld outright saying there is no self on an occasion so as not to make a person distraught, thinking (to paraphrase the Buddha) that "There was a self, and now it has been annihilated"? I think that at least two things might be said: 1) There is no LESS of a "Nina" than there ever was, and 2) All those things that he takes for "Nina", all the ever-changing and beloved sights, sounds, odors, etc, etc that are summed by his mind as "Nina", truly are experienced and not just imagined, and, moreover, he can fairly well infer that just as all these experiences are "his", so there is a comparable flow of experiences that constitutes the internal reality of "Nina", with both of you, and all other sentient beings like mutually reflecting mirrors (except there are no mirrors, per se, but only the images and the discerning of them). As so beautifully described by Nyanananda Bhikkhu in "Magic of the Mind," a commentary on the Kalakarama Sutta, it is like a magic show with all the (ongoingly replaced) apparatus continually projecting a multi-sensory world of beings and objects, and we, like members of a gullible audience, believe that all these people, elephants, tigers, massive trees, huge mountains, rivers, seas, oceans, and entire civilizations projected on our "stage" are real. When we are fooled, the effect is enchanting, bemusing, and entrancing, and despite the delight found therein (and partly because of it), it leads ineluctably to sorrow. But when we awaken from our foolishness, we are dis-enchanted, and freed, and, so importantly, "happier" (not ordinary happiness) than we ever could have imagined. The Bard expressed the awakening from illusion magnificently: > Our revels now are ended. These our actors, > As I foretold you, were all spirits, and > Are melted into air, into thin air: > And like the baseless fabric of this vision, > The cloud-capp'd tow'rs, the gorgeous palaces, > The solemn temples, the great glove itself, > Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, > And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, > Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff > As dreams are made on; and our little life > Is rounded with a sleep. > --Shakespeare's The Tempest Act 4, Scene 1, 148-158 This is how I see it, and maybe some of it might help. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20931 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and practice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for your comments. I may sound like a stuck record here - no > surprises;-) Let me just butt in here to say that `vipassana practice' and `meditation' > are loaded terms. with all due respect, there is a question about whether > the way they are used freely in meditation centres is related to how they > are used in the texts. Hi Sarah, I see that Howard isn't going to pick up this thread anymore, so I am. First, I want to offer the fact that everything in the suttas about meditation isn't everything the Buddha taught about meditation. In the suttas you will find some very general descriptions, fitting everyone, which makes it appear like meditation isn't much different than ordinary mindfulness. That is a faulty conclusion to reach. The reason you don't find suttas extremely specific about meditation, and how it should be applied in overall Buddhist practice, is because it needs to be taught to each person individually…and how important it is to that person's practice will vary by person and day. It cannot be taught, in detail, in a sutta that will be beneficial for everyone. If the Buddha gave suttas that were very specific about meditation to everyone, the meditation would fail horribly. It would be very much like these fad diets which are supposed to work for everyone all the time, dream on! ;-) We all have different metabolisms and there isn't one type of diet that will work for everyone every day. The same goes for meditation. Surely you can appreciate and understand this reality? For example, when the Buddha came to the first five ascetics and taught them the Four Noble Truths, some reached enlightenment almost immediately but some did not. He taught meditation, one-on-one, with the remaining monks for several days until they also reached enlightenment. But the suttas don't describe what he taught them or what they each needed, because that wouldn't be helpful or necessary to others. That is predominately what the Buddha did with his time. He worked one-on-one with monks in order for them to have fruitful meditation...and then those monks worked with other monks. Surely you don't believe that there were so many arahants during the Buddha's time because they walked around labeling nama and rupa? Meditation is the key to truly discovering anatta. I stress and sincerely believe that anatta cannot be known without some type of meditation practice…period, the end. If one is a serious meditator, they should work closely with a teacher…or at least read the theories of several different meditation teachers. Not every technique of Vipassana meditation is going to fit every person; it is up to the teacher to instinctively know what will work for his/her student. If the person doesn't have a teacher, then they need to become informed and change techniques as they see fit. Thankfully, I had a meditation master for several years. Like Howard, I have gone through periods of intense meditation and no meditation; I have focused on calmness, concentration, and/or both at various times; and I have also had Enlightenment Experiences (`Sati') and they are quite real and life transforming, as Howard explains…which you don't seem to understand, which is understandable. This will be my first of two posts. In my next post I will address `catching' moments as they arise to foster wisdom and `real' wholesome mind states vs. `artificial' ones. Metta, James 20932 From: Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi, Robert (and Larry) - In a message dated 4/4/03 2:51:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Hardness and visble object are paramattha dhammas - sabhava. Nina is > concept, asabhavadhammam. The crux of the teaching depends upon > resolving this difference. ========================= That is part of the crux, possibly the crux of the crux. But the rest is that these actually and directly experienced dhammas are, themselves, dependently arisen, fleeting, insubstantial, impersonal, and, thus, empty. Mere foam, not inexistent but empty. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20933 From: Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi, James - In a message dated 4/4/03 10:53:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > >Hi Howard, > > > >Thanks for your comments. I may sound like a stuck record here - no > >surprises;-) > Let me just butt in here to say that `vipassana practice' > and `meditation' > >are loaded terms. with all due respect, there is a question about > whether > >the way they are used freely in meditation centres is related to > how they > >are used in the texts. > > > Hi Sarah, > > I see that Howard isn't going to pick up this thread anymore, so I > am. ============================= Just in case there is some confusion in this, I DID reply to this post of Sarah's. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20934 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 8:17am Subject: RE: [dsg] Thanks Kom! Dear Kimmy, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:35 PM > > Thanks for your letter. My presentation was successful > although there were some technical problems. I am glad you did well in your presentation. > I used to think that adults really can do better when > facing scary movies, it's beause my mother always says > I'm silly when I feel scared. I think some adults do better than some children because some adults don't believe that such stories can be true, whereas sometimes children are more likely to believe that it could happen and hence make it scarier. If adults aren't scared at all, why do they go see scary movies? > Thank you for your advice based on a Buddhist point of > view on my problem, Kom! I think I can enjoy well and > play well in the coming competition, I like to play > basketball and I was a team member in the past two > years. I am glad. > Last, I would like to ask what will happen after the > world ends? Second, why were there human beings after > the ice age? Is Buddhism interested in the beginning > and ending of the world? If not, why? > I don't know when the world would end, or why there are human beings after the ice age. The Buddhists are not so interested in the beginning or the end of the world. The focus of the Buddhist teaching is on the understanding of oneself, which the Buddhists believe that it is the path of liberation. If we are still quite ignorant about who we are, even though we are with ourselves every moment, then it is useless to understand the beginning or the end of the world since those things are unknowable to us. We can think and speculate about them, but we cannot come to a conclusion because the beginning and the end of the world don't appear to us. So, the Buddhists focus on understanding what appears to us: feeling, memory, anger, attachment, etc. Do we truly understand for ourselves who we are, without believing in others or believing just the story that we think of ourselves? This understanding is why the Buddha teaches us. kom 20935 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 8:33am Subject: RE: [dsg] KoM~ ^.^ Dear Kiana, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 11:43 PM > > Dear Kom, > > I am quite busy in these few weeks, so I reply to > you just now, I hope you don't mind. Not at all, you can reply whenever you like. > Why do you think that we can keep ourselves well by > being mindful, by not being forgetful to give? Because by being mindful, one does not fall into evil. When we are mindful, we don't forget to give, we don't forget to the abstain from bad deeds, and we don't forget to develop tranquility of the mind and wisdom. When we are angry, unhappy, bored, jealous, stingy, we are not being mindful. There are benefits of being well now. One doesn't harm others by way of deeds or speeches. One can cause happiness in others. By being mindful, one is at peace. One knows oneself (and others) better. There are benefits in the future. The Buddha teaches that kamma (deed) is a cause, and the results of that cause is appropriate to that cause. Good deeds bring good results, and bad deeds bring bad results. > > I do think human life is precious! I want to ask > what'll happen after death? You'll meet the god, the > devil or you'll be a human again? Yes, human life is precious, especially at time when the Buddha teaching is still available. We can do good deeds. A lot of animals cannot do good deeds as much. We can learn about ourselves more, animals can't do that. I don't know what is going to happen to me after death, but being reborn is a result of kamma too. If I am born in a good place (like being a human), it will be a result of good deed in the past. If I am born in a bad place, then it would be a result of bad deeds. I have done both good and bad deeds in the past, and I don't know which one is going to give results first. > I think we don't know when we'll die, maybe today, > tomorrow or several years later, so we must be good > all the time and we shouldn't be afraid of death, > anyway it'll come! Yes, I very much agree with you here. Since death can come at any moment, we should be the best we can be, to ourselves and to others. > Are you afraid of death? > Sometimes, when I think about it, most of the time, no. Death is a result of kamma too, and results come because of causes. If we want good results, then we should develop good causes. So instead of being worried or fearful of results, then we should do good causes. kom 20936 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness Dear Kom, I am always delighted to be reminded of clinging by friends in the Dhamma. I welcome more reminders. See below. op 01-04-2003 08:43 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: >>She makes us see how >> stubborn such clinging is and how >> subtle it can be. > My favorite (from A. Sujin), for which I am very grateful, > is, what do we study dhamma for? To understand realities, > at the current moment. To start letting go of ignorance. > Whenever I study to know more than other people, I am > reminded of this teaching. Whenever I study as if this is > an academic study, I am reminded of this teaching. Whenever > I try to finish a lot of stories just for the sake of > finishing a book, I am reminded of this teaching. N: Yes, that is why I appreciate the reminder: is there any understanding at this moment? Understanding should be emphasized, more than awareness, because, what is awareness without understanding? As Jon said before, people may think that knowing more about dhammas as they arise through the six doors, is a kind of intellectual exercise. As you say, this is not the aim. From the texts we learn that listening to the Dhamma and considering what we hear are conditions for the arising of mindfulness and understanding. I find, that in the course of years all we have heard makes just a little more sense. Each time of listening a little more understanding, and a little more understanding. So little at a time that it is hardly noticeable, but that is how understanding works its way. We cannot measure the growth of panna, but it is exceedingly slow. Of course there are thoughts coming in of, I should have more awareness, but we can realize that that is wrong. Realizing when we are wrong is already a gain. Kom:> Whenever there is the wrong (crooked) mindfulness, are we > attempting to have mindfulness just for the sake of > mindfulness, or for the sake of being one who develops > mindfulness? Do we so much desire to have more and more > understanding? This is not the purpose, this is not the > path, but it is, like you said, samudaya, bondage to > samsara, dhamma that slows the development, dhamma that > blocks the development, dhamma that entangles. The > understanding is the path, and that is what we should > develop. N: It is good to stress the three levels of understanding: 1. intellectual understanding, 2. the practice, that is, direct awareness and understanding, 3. the direct realization of the truth. We consider the characteristics of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time. This is a way of study, but it is study of what appears, no matter whether understanding is not yet clear. Study means: again and again and beginning to understand characteristics of dhammas. Aversion (dosa) could never arise at the same time as awareness, it has passed when awareness arises. I have heard also in Thailand that people say, I am not in time, too late (may than) to be aware of a characteristic. We do not count how many cittas have passed, but the characteristic of dosa can still be studied with mindfulness, just for a moment. It is the same with seeing. Awareness cannot arise at the same time as seeing. Seeing only sees what is visible, it does not know, I am seeing. But after it has fallen away its characteristic can be studied, just for a moment. Thinking of characteristics arises, and also thinking can be studied as an experience, a nama. It is different from direct awareness. Last time A. Sujin spoke in the Parlement building for two hours about the difference between sense-cognitions and other cittas arising in the processes. Again this may seem an intellectual exercise, but it is not. It helps to have just a little more understanding of different characteristics of realities as they appear now. Seeing is different from thinking. Swee Boon made an interesting remark: op 26-03-2003 16:44 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > It's interesting to note that it is possible to be mindful of > mindfulness itself.> N: And Ken H came in: . A. Sujin reminded us that if there are realities we are not aware of, we take them for self. In the end all realities have to be known, and it is good to realize right from the beginning what can be the objects of awareness: kusala, akusala, mindfulness, forgetfulness, material phenomena, any reality. We read in the "Visuddhimagga" (XXI, 13) under: the stage of insight that is knowledge of contemplation of dissolution (bhanga ~naa.na): With appreciation, Nina. 20937 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 9:20am Subject: Perfections, Ch 8, Truthfulness, no 12 Perfections, Ch 8, Truthfulness, no 12 We read about the meaning of truthfulness in the ³Paramattha Jotikå², the Commentary to the ³Sutta Nipåta², The Group of Discourses, I, The Snake Chapter 10, Ålavaka: The term sacca has several meanings: it can mean truthfulness in speech (våcå sacca), or it can mean truthfulness in abstaining (virati sacca). It is steadfastness in the truth, in the abstention from akusala kamma. It can mean truthfulness of view (ditthi sacca), truthfulness as to right view. Sacca can also refer to brahmana sacca (brahmin truths [9]), paramattha sacca (ultimate truth) and ariya sacca (noble Truths). The term ³saccena² (by truthfulness), means, someone acquires a good reputation, because he speaks the truth, because of sincerity. The Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas and the ariyan disciples have a high reputation because of ultimate truth, paramattha sacca [10]. Only paññå can understand the true nature of each dhamma. However, the development of paññå is conditioned by listening to the Dhamma, and by considering it in all details. One should develop paññå gradually, stage by stage. We still have defilements, but we listen to the Dhamma and we have taken refuge in the Dhamma during this life. This shows that we are following the way to develop paññå, so that the characteristics of realities that are appearing now can be penetrated. We should follow in the footsteps of the Bodhisattas and accumulate the perfections. People say that they want to practise the Dhamma. The practice of the Dhamma is the abandoning of akusala: of lobha, dosa and moha. Lobha should be abandoned when it arises, that is the practice of the Dhamma. If someone wants to apply the Dhamma he should not delay this. When anger arises, one should abandon it so that there is non-hate, that is the practice of the Dhamma. When jealousy, stinginess or other kinds of akusala arise one should abandon them, that is the practice of the Dhamma. However, defilements cannot be eradicated according to our wishes or expectations. Even the Bodhisatta who had accumulated the perfections during innumerable lives was still susceptible to the power of akusala, because he had not yet eradicated defilements. We should reflect on the Bodhisatta who accumulated the perfections in order to realize the noble Truths. He wanted to understand the truth of the four paramattha dhammas, of citta, cetasika, rúpa and nibbåna. We should develop paññå in order to realize the truth of Dhamma, we should see the benefit of sacca, of the truth. The paramattha dhammas which are the true dhammas have unalterable characteristics. We should find out what the true characteristic is of citta, cetasika, and rúpa, which are not self, not a being or person. We should find out what the true nature of nibbåna is, the dhamma that is different from citta, cetasika and rúpa. If someone seeks the truth, he wants to penetrate it and hence he can see the benefit of the truth . He should develop all degrees of truthfulness, beginning with truthfulness in speech. Footnotes: 9. Truthfulness with regard to the holy life, the life of someone who develops the eightfold Path leading to the eradication of defilements. 10. They have realized the true nature of the paramattha dhammas of citta, cetasika, rúpa and nibbåna. 20938 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 10:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma and practice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > Hi Sarah, > > > > I see that Howard isn't going to pick up this thread anymore, so I > > am. > ============================= > Just in case there is some confusion in this, I DID reply to this post > of Sarah's. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, :-)) No confusion, I am aware of that :-). I was referring to the thread. You let Sarah have the last word...and that just won't do! ;-). Metta, James 20939 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Jon, Let me ask this: Is a computer fabricated? Does it last forever? Does it break down, disintegrate eventually? Is it permanent or impermanent? Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > I would think eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and intellect can be > > seen as objects, and they are unsatisfactory/dukkha. > > It seems to me that in the suttas eyes, ears, etc are to be regarded > as the faculties of sight, hearing etc rather than the objects that > we know as eyeball/pupil/cornea or eardrum etc. I say this because > of the context in which these terms are often found, such as the > 'sets' of eye, visible object, seeing consciousness, contact, > pleasant /unpleasant feeling arising from contact etc. These are the > same dhammas as are referred to by the 5 khandhas etc. > > > To me the dichotomy between "conventional objects" and "ultimate > > objects" is unnecessary; instead of clarifying, it adds more to the > > mental complications. > > Understanding the distinction between dhammas and concepts is > important, I believe. When we read passages in the texts such as > 'sabbe sankhara anicca/dukkha, sabbe dhamma anatta' we need to know > what are the 'sankhara' and 'dhamma' being referred to. Likewise > with the 5 khandhas. On my reading these references should be read > as excluding concepts. > > > A concept is also impermanent. It is unsatisfactory/dukkha. > > The question that mainly interests me is, what do the texts say about > impermanence and dukkha? In the case of anatta, Victor, you often > point out that the Buddha did not say that 'there is no self', but > only that the aggregates etc are non-self. I appreciate this > particularity on your part. When it comes to anicca and dukkha, > there is a similar distinction to be noted. Anicca and dukkha (like > anatta) are characteristics that are said to pertain to dhammas > rather than concepts, on my reading. > > Jon 20940 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 11:32am Subject: Part II: Re: Abhidhamma and practice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi, Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > We are agreed on many of the points. Let me just pick up a couple: Hi Sarah, I want to import a comment made in your earlier post, and then reply to the majority of this post (which appears to be your guiding opposition to meditation practice). First, in your first post to me you wrote: "Perhaps we should however consider a) why we are so concerned to `catch' anything and b) if at the present moment we are typing/reading/cooking/shopping/teaching, how does it help to have the idea of another time/place/practise? c) what vipassana practice is according to the texts." As I see it, you are having some confusion as to how Vipassana meditation, during a limited period of the day, is supposed to help with the remainder of the day. To paraphrase what you further explain, Vipassana means to be aware of arising and falling reality in the present moment, and that should be a 24-Hour endeavor, not just something done during meditation. I hope that I am following you correctly. First of all, Vipassana, meaning the awareness of reality, cannot be practiced while you are typing, reading, cooking, shopping, teaching, or anything else of that nature, it can only be practiced while you are meditating. The mind has far too many things to attend to during those activities to really see the process that is going on. What is needed is to slow the mind down, concentrate it, and focus on just a few sensations, thoughts, feelings, etc. at a time. If it was possible to do Vipassana during everyday activities, we would all be enlightened by now. Sarah, whenever there is a sensation registered in the mind, call that moment a `citta' if you like, there is a response from the consciousness that is either aversion, clinging, or neutral (judging that sensation as unimportant…not equanimity). This is the root of human suffering: desire. The fact that we don't know this process is occurring: ignorance. That this process continues self-view: ego. It is with the tool of awareness, directed to each of these moments as they occur, that stops the process. Why? Because then there is awareness of it…no more ignorance. It isn't by force or will that they process is stopped, it is only by knowledge of it. This has to be done little-by-little for insight to arise...meditating once isn't going to do it. This is the way to eradicate the roots of suffering, anything else simply cuts down the tree of suffering and it will re-grow. That brings me to your major contention, wholesome mind states. My understanding is that you are advocating the ability of panna (higher wisdom), which is supposed to come about through reading and consideration of the Tipitaka (especially the Abhidhamma), to bring about wholesome mind states and awareness of present realities. This sounds really lofty so let me put it in more simple terms. You believe that awareness of unwholesome mind states and wholesome ones will allow a person to substitute one for the other, namely good for bad, whenever they arise and that this will increase awareness of present reality. You also recognize that this will take a long time to perfect in a person. Sarah, I'm sorry, but this isn't Buddhism, this is bio-feedback. Meta-cognition of mind states, seeing negative ones and replacing them with positive, is simply cutting the tree of desire down again and again…and each time it re-grows because the roots are still present. This is the same type of technique that psychiatrists use to stop smoking, over-eating, or other destructive behaviors caused by negative thoughts. It isn't necessarily a bad thing to be doing (except for the mistaken belief that it is somehow `special') but it isn't destroying the roots of suffering. The Buddhadhamma isn't a `self-help' teaching interested in superficial happiness that has to be self-cultivated continuously, it is interested in elimination of the root of the problem, which requires Vipassana meditation practice along with the remainder of the eightfold path. Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone and their long-held beliefs. Metta, James 20941 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 0:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha --- Exactly so, Howard. Thanks for adding this. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert (and Larry) - > > In a message dated 4/4/03 2:51:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > Hardness and visble object are paramattha dhammas - sabhava. Nina is > > concept, asabhavadhammam. The crux of the teaching depends upon > > resolving this difference. > ========================= > That is part of the crux, possibly the crux of the crux. But the rest > is that these actually and directly experienced dhammas are, themselves, > dependently arisen, fleeting, insubstantial, impersonal, and, thus, empty. > Mere foam, not inexistent but empty. > > With metta, > Howard 20942 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues 5, no 1. Disappearance of Ariyans Dear Nina, Was the Buddha really omniscient? My understanding is that the Buddha was not an agnostic (one who does not know). In fact, He was a gnostic or 'one who knows' (in Pali- "janata") and was also called "Sabbannu", the 'All-knower". This means that to whatever subject Lord Buddha attended to, He knew all the contents of that subject. It does not mean that He always knew everything about every subject all at once, for this very claim was one He emphatically and specifically denied about himself. Would you agree that precision is needed in this one area before other things are approached? Omniscience has to be defined carefully in this case with a further definition that I have described above, and I would sincerely appreciate your thoughts via commentary on this. Metta cittena, VBD ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues 5, no 1. Disappearance of Ariyans Dear James, op 02-04-2003 21:54 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I think what is interesting about this information isn't the > men/women issue, but something far more revealing: > > 1.The omniscience of the Buddha > 2.The existence of free will > 3.That the future isn't predetermined and there can be a variety of > outcomes based on actions.and the Buddha could know all of the > outcomes. > 4.Therefore, actions or decisions are not completely conditioned by > past, present, or future karma. > 5.Therefore, free will can exist without a self. N:Excellent post and good summary of recent discussions about these issues. Yes, when I am shouting or when I am helping, there are different volitions. They are not self, fall away completely. Each moment volition is different because of conditions, our accumulations. Interesting, because when someone is full of consideration, metta, he seems a different personality from the moments he was shouting. It can surprise us. J: Are there any additional Dhamma Issues which address free will vs. > predetermination? Or the omniscience of the Buddha? N: No. The next ones are rather miscellaneous, depending on what people brought up: final passing away of a layman who is arahat (King Milinda's Dilemmas), Insight knowledge of kamma and result, sixfold Path, incest father and daughter, the Buddha's last meal, etc. The second Bulletin is entirely about latent tendencies, I am looking forward to translate this. I like to learn more about them. Nina. 20943 From: Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi, James and Sarah - In a message dated 4/4/03 1:39:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > :-)) No confusion, I am aware of that :-). I was referring to the > thread. You let Sarah have the last word...and that just won't > do! ;-). > > Metta, James > ========================== LOL! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20944 From: Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Part II: Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi, James (and Sarah) - In a message dated 4/4/03 2:34:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > My understanding is that you are advocating the ability of panna > (higher wisdom), which is supposed to come about through reading and > consideration of the Tipitaka (especially the Abhidhamma), to bring > about wholesome mind states and awareness of present realities. > This sounds really lofty so let me put it in more simple terms. You > believe that awareness of unwholesome mind states and wholesome ones > will allow a person to substitute one for the other, namely good for > bad, whenever they arise and that this will increase awareness of > present reality. You also recognize that this will take a long time > to perfect in a person. Sarah, I'm sorry, but this isn't Buddhism, > this is bio-feedback. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry to disagree with you, James, but this *is* a part of Buddhism. It is guarding the senses, and it is right effort. It's just a part, but it *is* a part. --------------------------------------------------- Meta-cognition of mind states, seeing > > negative ones and replacing them with positive, is simply cutting > the tree of desire down again and again…and each time it re-grows > because the roots are still present. This is the same type of > technique that psychiatrists use to stop smoking, over-eating, or > other destructive behaviors caused by negative thoughts. It isn't > necessarily a bad thing to be doing (except for the mistaken belief > that it is somehow `special') but it isn't destroying the roots of > suffering. The Buddhadhamma isn't a `self-help' teaching interested > in superficial happiness that has to be self-cultivated > continuously, it is interested in elimination of the root of the > problem, which requires Vipassana meditation practice along with the > remainder of the eightfold path. > ==================================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20945 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 1:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Robert, Nina is not a concept. Nina is a human being, and a human being is not a concept. Perhaps you should ask Nina if she is a concept or not. Regards, Victor > Hardness and visble object are paramattha dhammas - sabhava. Nina is > concept, asabhavadhammam. The crux of the teaching depends upon > resolving this difference. 20946 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 1:58pm Subject: [dsg] Part II: Re: Abhidhamma and practice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 4/4/03 2:34:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > > > My understanding is that you are advocating the ability of panna > > (higher wisdom), which is supposed to come about through reading and > > consideration of the Tipitaka (especially the Abhidhamma), to bring > > about wholesome mind states and awareness of present realities. > > This sounds really lofty so let me put it in more simple terms. You > > believe that awareness of unwholesome mind states and wholesome ones > > will allow a person to substitute one for the other, namely good for > > bad, whenever they arise and that this will increase awareness of > > present reality. You also recognize that this will take a long time > > to perfect in a person. Sarah, I'm sorry, but this isn't Buddhism, > > this is bio-feedback. > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sorry to disagree with you, James, but this *is* a part of Buddhism. > It is guarding the senses, and it is right effort. It's just a part, but it > *is* a part. > --------------------------------------------------- Hi Howard, Well, that is one way of looking at it, but I look at guarding the senses a little differently. Guarding the senses means to be aware of mind states as they arise, as a result of sensory input, and to refocus the mind's reaction to those senses with equanimity. In other words, to re-center the mind when it becomes off-balance. It isn't replacing one mind state with another…that is mechanistic and ultimately futile, IMO. If one doesn't have a grounding in Vipassana meditation, all attempts to `guard the senses' won't really be what the Buddha intended. I believe it will be like bio- feedback or self-hypnosis. Just my perspective. Metta, James 20947 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 3:02pm Subject: Re: Computer as dukkha Dear all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: Hi Robert, Nina is not a concept. Nina is a human being, and a human being is not a concept. Perhaps you should ask Nina if she is a concept or not. Regards, Victor > Hardness and visble object are paramattha dhammas - sabhava. Nina is > concept, asabhavadhammam. The crux of the teaching depends upon > resolving this difference. KKT: I have a question: According to Abhidhamma, reality is simply a series of momentary ultimate realities (ie. paramattha dhammas) Sujin insists alot on the importance of distinguishing between << concept >> and << ultimate realities >>. Take an example: << Computer >> is only a concept, its << factual >> reality is a series of momentary paramattha dhammas, OK? The concept << computer >> appears as the << wholeness >> of the thing called computer, OK? (or the wholeness of this series of ultimate realities) The question is: By << what >> is perceived the concept << computer >> ? If the answer is << Citta >> (ie. consciousness) then it seems impossible since citta itself also exists (or lasts) only a fleeting moment therefore how could a series of << discrete >> cittas form the << whole >> concept of the thing called computer? The main point raised by the question is its criticism of the theory of Momentariness of Abhidharma. The author of the criticism is Shankara, founder of the Advaita Vedanta school of Hinduism (8th century) Metta, KKT 20948 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi RobertK, The view you are holding is a wrong view. Regards, Victor [snip] > I think there really are no women or Nina or computer, Larry. [snip] > RobertK 20949 From: Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Robert, I disagree. Concept and rupa are both anatta. Nibbana follows the difinitive recognition of anatta. Whatever lines one may draw between concept and rupa is merely an academic exercise. imo Larry 20950 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 5:01pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: [Pali] sanna, perception, aperception, consciousness cognizing Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 12:58 AM > > Hi Frank, > > I've just been looking at the passages you quoted > from MN. Sorry for the > delay and hope you're still around;-) > ..... > --- Frank Kuan wrote: > > > I re-discovered a great passage in the M today: > > > > M43 mahavedalla (greater series of q & a) > > > > p. 389 b.bodhi version: > > > > "Feeling, perception, and consciousness, friend - > > these states are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is > > impossible to separate each of these states from the > > others in order to describe the difference between > > then. For what one feels, that one perceives; and what > > one perceives, that one cognizes. That is why these > > states are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is > > impossible to separate each of these states from the > > others in order to describe the difference between > > them." > ..... > There is a summary note from MA (the comy) at the back: > > "MA: Wisdom has been excluded from this exchange > because the intention is > to show only the states that are conjoined on > every occasion of > consciousness." > ..... > S:In other words, it doesn't mean the different > characteristics cannot be > known, but when they arise with a citta > experiencing an object they are > always 'conjoined', being universal cetasikas > (mental factors accompanying > all cittas). > ..... I really think this instance really shows how hard it is sometimes to understand the sutta without the commentaries. Anumoddhana. kom 20951 From: Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Part II: Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi, James - With regard to the following reply of yours, I'd like to direct your attention to the chapter on Right Effort in the article "THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH: The Way to the end of Suffering" by Bhikkhu Bodhi, taken from ATI and found at the following url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#ch5 The "technique of replacing" as well as other techniques are discussed in this work (and elsewhere). With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/4/03 5:00:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, James (and Sarah) - > > > >In a message dated 4/4/03 2:34:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > > > > > >>My understanding is that you are advocating the ability of panna > >>(higher wisdom), which is supposed to come about through reading > and > >>consideration of the Tipitaka (especially the Abhidhamma), to > bring > >>about wholesome mind states and awareness of present realities. > >>This sounds really lofty so let me put it in more simple terms. > You > >>believe that awareness of unwholesome mind states and wholesome > ones > >>will allow a person to substitute one for the other, namely good > for > >>bad, whenever they arise and that this will increase awareness > of > >>present reality. You also recognize that this will take a long > time > >>to perfect in a person. Sarah, I'm sorry, but this isn't > Buddhism, > >>this is bio-feedback. > >--------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Sorry to disagree with you, James, but this *is* a part of > Buddhism. > >It is guarding the senses, and it is right effort. It's just a > part, but it > >*is* a part. > >--------------------------------------------------- > Hi Howard, > > Well, that is one way of looking at it, but I look at guarding the > senses a little differently. Guarding the senses means to be aware > of mind states as they arise, as a result of sensory input, and to > refocus the mind's reaction to those senses with equanimity. In > other words, to re-center the mind when it becomes off-balance. It > isn't replacing one mind state with another…that is mechanistic and > ultimately futile, IMO. If one doesn't have a grounding in > Vipassana meditation, all attempts to `guard the senses' won't > really be what the Buddha intended. I believe it will be like bio- > feedback or self-hypnosis. Just my perspective. > > Metta, James > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20952 From: Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as dukkha Hi, KKT - In a message dated 4/4/03 6:03:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, phamdluan@a... writes: > > Dear all, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > > > Hi Robert, > > Nina is not a concept. Nina is a human being, and a human being is > not a concept. > > Perhaps you should ask Nina if she is a concept or not. > > Regards, > Victor > > > >Hardness and visble object are paramattha dhammas - sabhava. Nina > is > >concept, asabhavadhammam. The crux of the teaching depends upon > >resolving this difference. > > > > > > KKT: I have a question: > > According to Abhidhamma, > reality is simply a series of > momentary ultimate realities > (ie. paramattha dhammas) > > Sujin insists alot on the importance > of distinguishing between <> > and <>. > > Take an example: > > <>is only a concept, > its <>reality is a series of > momentary paramattha dhammas, OK? > > The concept <> > appears as the <> > of the thing called computer, OK? > (or the wholeness of this series > of ultimate realities) > > The question is: > > By <>is perceived > the concept <>? > > If the answer is <> > (ie. consciousness) > then it seems impossible > since citta itself also exists > (or lasts) only a fleeting moment > therefore how could a series > of <>cittas form > the <>concept of > the thing called computer? > > > The main point raised by > the question is its criticism > of the theory of Momentariness > of Abhidharma. The author > of the criticism is Shankara, > founder of the Advaita Vedanta > school of Hinduism (8th century) > > > Metta, > > > KKT > ============================= As I see it, the mind constructs pa~n~natti, instances (or instantiations) of concepts, and these are observed at the mind-door. Following upon a sequence of images, the mind constructs "the tree I now see in the garden". The "seeing of a tree" is actually a mental event involving the discernment of a mental construct. We don't recognize it, however, as such, but take it to be a thing "out there". I don't see that momentariness vs non-momentariness is an issue here. (I, myself, happen to question momentariness as an ultimate. I frankly think that it is a conventional idealization of the facts! But, hey, what do I know! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20953 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 6:36pm Subject: Re: Computer as dukkha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > > > Robert:> Hardness and visble object are paramattha dhammas - sabhava. Nina > is > > concept, asabhavadhammam. The crux of the teaching depends upon > > resolving this difference. > > _______________ > > > > KKT: I have a question: > > According to Abhidhamma, > reality is simply a series of > momentary ultimate realities > (ie. paramattha dhammas) > > Sujin insists alot on the importance > of distinguishing between << concept >> > and << ultimate realities >>. > > Take an example: > > << Computer >> is only a concept, > its << factual >> reality is a series of > momentary paramattha dhammas, OK? > _____________________- Dear KKT, Computer is the shadow of what is really there. What is there is rupa, arising and passing, very fast. > The concept << computer >> > appears as the << wholeness >> > of the thing called computer, OK? > (or the wholeness of this series > of ultimate realities) > __________ Right, computer is a 'whole' a necessary concept. It is only by analysing the whole into actual sabhava dhammas - such as touch and seeing/colour and so on, that the illusion is broken up and what we once believed was a world or people is seen to be only namas and rupas - conditioned, evanescent phenomena. A very gradual and happy discovery. > The question is: > > By << what >> is perceived > the concept << computer >> ? > > If the answer is << Citta >> > (ie. consciousness) > then it seems impossible > since citta itself also exists > (or lasts) only a fleeting moment > therefore how could a series > of << discrete >> cittas form > the << whole >> concept of > the thing called computer? > ___________ I recently quoted what Kom wrote about this: | "As taught by Tan A. Sujin the namas (mentality)can experience objects through the six | dvaras, via the process of panja-dvara-javana-vithi (1), and mano- | dvara-javana-vithi (2). When an object is experienced as paramatha | aramana by the cittas in the panja-dvara-javana-vithi process, it is also | experienced, also as paramatha aramana, in the mano-dvara- javana- | vithi process. |It is only some vithis later that the mano- dvara-javana-vithi (3) cittas start experiencing pannati (concepts) as conditioned by the earlier cittas | experiencing the poratha aramana. The aramana for the cittas at this point is no longer paramatha: it is not real----it does not rise, it does not fall, it does not exist, has not existed, and will never exist. | | | Before a process (3) can arise, there must be "thousands" of (1), and (2) | processes already taken place repeatedly. By this description, we can deduce that, it is not enough for a single rupa (17 moments of cittas) to condition the cittas to start experiencing pannati. It must take "thousands" of panja-dvara-javana-vithi and mano-dvara- javana | vithi, which actually experience poramatha aramana, for the citta to | start "organizing" and "arranging" the sense objects into a concept. | | The concepts also change as the mano-dvara-javana vithi (3), experiencing | the concept, repeats. For seeing, in the beginning we may just see an unidentified shape, and then it becomes a familiar shape, and then we may attach a name to the shape. At this point, the process of taking paramatha object all the way to a memorable, identifiable, namable concept is complete: a perfect aramana for upadana to hold on to. | | Hence, to add to my original comments, the paramatha aramana doesn't | become sharper. How can it becomes sharper when it rises and falls away | virtually immediately? Only pannati(concept) becomes "sharper": the cittas | process the aramana object so it become identifiable and namable, and | hence, the pannati aramana becomes successively "clearer" in "our" | mind. | | The other points that I was attempting to add before is that, seeing | without satipathana glues us very steadfastly to the concepts of people, | animal, and self. If our eyes are open, it appears that an object that we see doesn't rise or fall away. It is there: constant and unchanging. It is so hard to understand that what we are seeing is no longer there. By | the time we see a shape, the object that we actually saw is no longer | there. By the time we remember the name, the object is no longer there." endquote by Kom Please carefully read this and then ask any questions about it. This is from a post a couple of years ago where I wrote along the same lines: the thinking process consists of different cittas and cetasikas all arising and passing away rapidly. These are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. Let us consider a couple of examples of thinking. 1. Think of a flying purple elephant. The process of thinking that imagines this, whether a graphic visualisation or your no-frills, idea only version, consists of cittas and cetasikas. The object of this thinking is a concept, not real. 2. Think of your mother or father (whether alive or not). Again same process - the cittas and cetasikas of the thinking process are real but the object, mother and father, is concept- not real. 3. If your mother and father were right in front of you now (talking to you) and you think of them, again the object is concept, not real; but the thinking process is real. The colours are real, the sounds are real, but mother and father is concept. Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is number 2 and especially number 3 that in daily life we get confused by. Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for object, not concepts. Does this mean we should try not to think of concepts? Some would have us do this but this is not the middle way. All the arahants thought of concepts but they could never confuse concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand dhammas directly even during the processes of thinking that take concepts for objects. > Question from old post:"Ultimate realities are impermanent, they arise and fall away. Concepts of people and things do not arise > and fall away [they don't?!]; they are objects of > thinking, not real in the ultimate sense." Yes they are simply concepts, not real. Only realities have actual characteristics and functions and arise and pass away. > > The main point raised by > the question is its criticism > of the theory of Momentariness > of Abhidharma. The author > of the criticism is Shankara, > founder of the Advaita Vedanta > school of Hinduism (8th century) >__________ if you tell me more about this criticism i'll be happy to respond. RobertK > > Metta, > > > KKT 20954 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 8:34pm Subject: [dsg] Part II: Re: Abhidhamma and practice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > With regard to the following reply of yours, I'd like to direct your > attention to the chapter on Right Effort in the article "THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD > PATH: The Way to the end of Suffering" by Bhikkhu Bodhi, taken from ATI and > found at the following url: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#ch5 > The "technique of replacing" as well as other techniques are discussed > in this work (and elsewhere). > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, I hate to belabor this point, but this article, and what you are describing, relates to meditation, not to everyday mindfulness. This type of Right Effort, as taught by the Buddha, was intended to be performed during meditation and was very specific to overcoming the hindrances to meditation. I really don't believe this is related to what I have been saying about everyday mindfulness and futile attempts at mind control from the top down. But thank you for drawing my attention to this interesting resource. Metta, James 20955 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] from babyhood to corpse Hi Victor, op 04-04-2003 15:15 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y... > > Nina, when you said "there is no Nina", you uttered a blatant > falsehood. It is understandable that Lodewijk yelled. No Victor, because there is a change each moment, I am no longer baby Nina. Growing older and then a corpse. Only ever changing nama and rupa. But there are accumulations, there is a character, but these do not stay. When I am more precise I should say, in the ultimate sense there is no Nina, only nama and rupa. I am really convinced that there are only six worlds and these are different: as Jon just explained. From baby to corpse, Suttanta method. We are only citta, cetasika and rupa, Abhidhamma method. The Suttanta method can prepare people to be open to the Abhidhamma method. Does this make sense to you, Victor? You quoted many suttas, very much appreciated. It would be wonderful if you could also see the Abhidhamma method in each sutta. More, see my post to Mike. Thanks for answering, I will tell Lodewijk, Nina. 20956 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] foam, foam. Dear Howard, yes, I like this, I'll also tell Lodewijk. It should help, that foam passage. Nina op 04-04-2003 18:05 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > In a message dated 4/4/03 2:51:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > >> Hardness and visble object are paramattha dhammas - sabhava. Nina is >> concept, asabhavadhammam. The crux of the teaching depends upon >> resolving this difference. > ========================= > That is part of the crux, possibly the crux of the crux. But the rest > is that these actually and directly experienced dhammas are, themselves, > dependently arisen, fleeting, insubstantial, impersonal, and, thus, empty. > Mere foam, not inexistent but empty. 20957 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] not nothing Hi Larry, op 04-04-2003 08:13 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > The middle way > is empty of inherent existence but not empty of relative existence. > Impermanent but not nothing. Ungraspable experience. Wide open. N: As you say, relative existence. I think you mean, conditions, many phenomena arising because of conditions. You say, not nothing and that is right. We keep in mind the Suttanta method and the Abhidhamma method. I found a good text on supportive kamma, but I do not know I have time now, because on Monday we are off for a three day trekking. I shall be silent. Nina. 20958 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: No Nina Dear Howard, that is very kind of you. I printed it out for Lodewijk. Yes, also A. Sujin used the simile of actors. And U Narada in Conditional Relations. Very good. And, Lodewijk liked it!! Also the foam part. With appreciation, Nina. op 04-04-2003 17:50 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > As so beautifully described by Nyanananda Bhikkhu in "Magic of the > Mind," a commentary on the Kalakarama Sutta, it is like a magic show with all > the (ongoingly replaced) apparatus continually projecting a multi-sensory > world of beings and objects, and we, like members of a gullible audience, > believe that all these people, elephants, tigers, massive trees, huge > mountains, rivers, seas, oceans, and entire civilizations projected on our > "stage" are real. 20959 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of Sutta and of Abhidhamma. Dear Mike, Victor and all, op 04-04-2003 15:48 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > IF he is really injecting such concepts > as "meditator"..."the direction the meditator gives to his mind"..."he > wishes to attain the first jhaana"..."he conveys his mind" etc., this is a > very serious distortion of the meaning of the original text--that is, a > confusion of 'the abhidhamma method' with 'the sutta method'. N: These two methods are also used in the Abhidhamma, such as in the Book of Analysis. It is repeated all the time: according to Suttanta method, according to Abh method. Maybe this answers also your following post on this? I do not see it as a problem. There can be both methods. I wrote something before about meditator I shall repeat here: I am glad you brought this up. There is no contradiction and what is more, in each sutta there is also the Abhidhamma method but it may not always be obvious to everybody. I am thinking of the suttas of Kindred Sayings IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, where we read about . What is it? Six worlds, appearing through six doorways. It crumbles away, it crumbles away. They are impermanent and therefore not worth clinging to, they are no refuge, thus, dukkha. The Buddha taught the four noble Truths, and these are real now. The first and second Truth, which is clinging occur now all the time. The Buddha reminded us of these Truths in sutta after sutta. Know your citta now, develop more understanding now. As I explained, also in the Layman's Ethics, Sigalovada sutta, we are reminded to understand citta now. The Elephant's Footprint, spoken by Sariputta: nama and rupa are explained in detail, and the consequences of this understanding for our conduct: hearing harsh speech, what is it? I quote what I wrote before: (translation of Wheel 101) : The same for feeling, perception, formations (san"khaarakkhandha) and consciousness. We then read: How true for daily life: what we hear or see can be disconcerting, be it only a little or very much. Knowing that what we see or hear are just conditioned elements reminds us of the true Dhamma. If equanimity does not persist in the bhikkhu, he should arouse a sense of urgency (sa.mvega.m aapajjati) as is stated in the sutta. A sense of urgency to develop right understanding at this very moment. Do you not think, Victor, that we can have more profit from each sutta when we go to the deep meaning, by means of the Abhidhamma method, by understanding ultimate realities? Don't you think that each sutta in this way contains a personal message for you, for your actual behaviour? Jon quoted many times the sutta texts on the four right efforts, and now Mike and I received the Pali text from one of our Pali teachers. What do you think, Mike, is this sutta text not more meaningful when we think of developing understanding of the present reality? We read in the Vinaya: He should see peril in his slightest faults. This is very meaningful when we see it as a reminder to consider the citta at this moment. Abhidhamma and Satipatthana go together. Nina. 20960 From: christhedis Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 1:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: equanimity Thanks for your reply. Please inform me, what is "tanha"? The source of my concern about whether or not to train is an apprehension about the "correctness" (maybe not the best word, sorry) of the philosophy behind it and what the effect of the training would be. It is said below that happiness is beyond all worldy attachments. If there is no rebirth, then what, practically stated, is there? Thank you, Chris. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Nice reply, KKT. How are you? > > First of all, the clear and unobstructed understanding of equanimity > must be studied, learned, and practiced. Equanimity here does not imply, > infer, or denote indifference or indifferent feeling. > > That there is concern or even worry about the so-called spice being > taken out of life means that one perhaps needs to see about tanha. > > Is it about transcending or about upekkha (tatra-majjhattataa)? If it is > about equanimity (recently taught with excellence here by Nina, if my > memory serves me correctly right at this moment while writing), then I > suggest it is not about transcending worldly attachements or worldly > aversions but all about the Buddha's teaching concerning the Four Noble > Truths and Nibbana. > > I suggest that without Right Understanding of these things, how can one > train oneself to be equanimous in all situations? > > Do all situations have to rely on tatra-majjhattataa, or do we need rely > on smething else in the Refuge? > > Finally, the training proposed is not merely an "idea". Please carefully > examine the Four Brahma-viharas. > Can one exist independently of the others? What is the source of your > concern as to whether to train or not, and whether or not the "spice" of > life is somehow taken out of living? The Taste of the Dhamma Excels all > other tastes, and a Taste of the Dhamma, for me, is as close as each > breath. The spice is there, so rather than thinking to much, perhaps a > taste is in order. > > VBD > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "phamdluan2000" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 12:36 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: equanimity > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Is it a good idea to train oneself to be equanimous in all situations > > (vipassana meditation)? Doesn't this take the 'spice' out of life? If > > a person transcends all worldly attachments, then what is beyond? > > > > > > > > > > KKT: The answer is: << Happiness >> > > > > > > Sariputta once said: > > > > __O friend, Nirvana is happiness! > > Nirvana is happiness! > > > > Then Udayi asked: > > > > __But, friend Sariputta, > > what happiness can it be > > if there is no sensation? > > > > Sariputta replied: > > > > __That there is no sensation itself is happiness. > > > > (from What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula, p.43) > > > > > > KKT 20961 From: Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 11:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Part II: Re: Abhidhamma and practice Hi, James - Your point is well taken. The primary venue is that of meditation. But there is also an everyday analogue that us useful. With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/4/03 11:38:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I hate to belabor this point, but this article, and what you are > describing, relates to meditation, not to everyday mindfulness. > This type of Right Effort, as taught by the Buddha, was intended to > be performed during meditation and was very specific to overcoming > the hindrances to meditation. I really don't believe this is > related to what I have been saying about everyday mindfulness and > futile attempts at mind control from the top down. But thank you > for drawing my attention to this interesting resource. > > Metta, James > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20962 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 4:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] from babyhood to corpse Hi Nina, Nina, given that you are no longer baby Nina, it does not mean that there is no Nina, that you are not there. The Abhidhamma method "we are only citta, cetasika and rupa" that you mentioned is an assumption, a personality view. This personality view is to be abandoned. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > op 04-04-2003 15:15 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y... > > > > Nina, when you said "there is no Nina", you uttered a blatant > > falsehood. It is understandable that Lodewijk yelled. > No Victor, because there is a change each moment, I am no longer baby Nina. > Growing older and then a corpse. Only ever changing nama and rupa. But there > are accumulations, there is a character, but these do not stay. When I am > more precise I should say, in the ultimate sense there is no Nina, only nama > and rupa. I am really convinced that there are only six worlds and these are > different: as Jon just explained. > From baby to corpse, Suttanta method. We are only citta, cetasika and rupa, > Abhidhamma method. The Suttanta method can prepare people to be open to the > Abhidhamma method. > Does this make sense to you, Victor? You quoted many suttas, very much > appreciated. It would be wonderful if you could also see the Abhidhamma > method in each sutta. > More, see my post to Mike. > Thanks for answering, I will tell Lodewijk, > Nina. 20963 From: cbn Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 4:51am Subject: asking Nina's help Dear Nina, I've just sent you an email with 2 attachment files to your own email to ask for your help. anumodana. selamat rodjali dhamma study group bogor JL. CITY No. 9 A BOGOR INDONESIA 20964 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] methods of Sutta and of Abhidhamma. Hi Nina, With Abhidhamma method that you mentioned, the Buddha's teaching would be distorted and misunderstood. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Mike, Victor and all, [snip] > Do you not think, Victor, that we can have more profit from each sutta when > we go to the deep meaning, by means of the Abhidhamma method, by > understanding ultimate realities? Don't you think that each sutta in this > way contains a personal message for you, for your actual behaviour? [snip] > Nina. 20965 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re: equanimity --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: > Thanks for your reply. Please inform me, what is "tanha"? > > The source of my concern about whether or not to train is an > apprehension about the "correctness" (maybe not the best word, sorry) > of the philosophy behind it and what the effect of the training would > be. > > It is said below that happiness is beyond all worldy attachments. If > there is no rebirth, then what, practically stated, is there? > > Thank you, > > Chris. Hi Chris, No one in this group knows what nibbana is like or what is after nibbana when the enlightened person dies. It sounds like you want some guarantees. You are afraid of what might happen to you after you die if you practice Buddhism. I have a question for you: What difference does it make? What if I promised you a heaven filled with worldly delights and unending pleasures, would you want to practice then? What if I threatened you will burn in a lake of fire for all eternity if you didn't practice, would you practice then? How would you know I was correct? Wouldn't that simply be manipulating you? The Buddha didn't do that type of manipulation. He just said, "I have discovered the truth." No one can describe that truth for you; you have to discover it for yourself. Something has brought you to Buddhism. For some reason, it rings a bell of familiarity in you, but you are scared of the consequences of practice. Just take it slow. Read some books, see if they make sense, and keep coming back to them as you see fit. This is a Buddhist group of those who have few doubts in the Buddhdhamma and are rushing toward that finish line of nibbana; it is somewhat advanced you could say. Keep that in perspective and realize you don't have to be at that point now or overnight. It is a slow process and you need to start from where you are. No one is going to convince you to be a Buddhist, which is futile. The choice is up to you…don't rush to make a choice. Metta, James 20966 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 9:23am Subject: Re: equanimity Dear James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: < snip > I have a question for you: What difference does it make? What if I promised you a heaven filled with worldly delights and unending pleasures, would you want to practice then? KKT: Yeah, the lifespan in the Controllers of Others' Creation, the highest heaven of the Desire-Realm is of 9,216,000,000 years! 9,216 million years of pleasure! It's worth to go there, is it not? :-)) Cheers :-)) KKT 20967 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 9:37am Subject: Re: equanimity --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear James, > KKT: Yeah, the lifespan > in the Controllers of Others' Creation, > the highest heaven of the Desire-Realm > is of 9,216,000,000 years! > > 9,216 million years of pleasure! > It's worth to go there, is it not? :-)) > > > Cheers :-)) > > > KKT Hi KKT, How utterly boring! :-) Count me out! :-) Metta, James 20968 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Dear Victor op 04-04-2003 23:28 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > Perhaps you should ask Nina if she is a concept or not. N: A conglomeration of ever changing elements. By the way, Victor, I am reminded of what Dharam said: it should not be disagreeable to disagree. Nina 20969 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the Buddha's Omniscience Venerable Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo, I agree with what you say. I found texst in the Visuddhimagga and Patisambhida magga about omniscience. I am glad you brought this subject up, it is an occasion for Recollection of the excellent qualities of the Buddha. With great pleasure I shall quote from these texts. I am still remembering your post of the Buddha's many names, and how important to often reflect on the Buddha's qualities. My answer will have to wait, because Monday I am off for three days. With respect, Nina. op 04-04-2003 21:00 schreef Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo op vinmardeb@e...: > > Was the Buddha really omniscient?... > "Sabbannu", the 'All-knower". This means > that to whatever subject Lord Buddha attended to, He knew all the > contents of that subject. It does not mean that He always knew > everything about every subject all at once, for this very claim was one > He emphatically and specifically denied about himself.... > Omniscience has to be defined carefully in this case with a further > definition that I have described above, and I would sincerely appreciate > your thoughts via commentary on this. 20970 From: Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] not nothing Hi Nina, Have a productive kammavipaka on your hike. I'm looking forward to reading the text on supportive kamma when you get back (maybe also something on productive kamma). At the very least these seem to go beyond bare rupa. Larry 20971 From: Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi again Robert, Here's a third alternative, unsanctioned by the texts but not entirely unreasonable: We could say empty of self means empty of concept since self is a concept and the source of all wrong views. As such, we might contend that the experience of rupa is a direct glimpse of anatta. However, I think the entire nama category is comprised only of various modes of conceptualizing. Most obvious are sanna, ditthi, panna, vitakka and vicara but even 5-door consciousness conceptualizes in so far as one thing (citta) represents/re-presents another (arammana). Hence, we have to say that the nexus of all representation is contact (phassa), the beginning of error. Concept = representation = error. Error leads to dukkha and/or learning. Someone might contend that there is no way to verify the object outside the representation of citta and therefore the error of representation is unknowable, a moot point, not conceptual. However, we verify the object all the time by simply comparing one citta with another (by slightly shifting one's point of view for example). My main point is that rupa shouldn't be considered to be more real than concept. Though it seems solid and substantial, rupa is just as empty and vacuous as concept and ultimately is a concept/representation. But any object is a reality simply by the meaning of the word "object" and all objects are ultimately subject representations. Larry 20972 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Nina, Are you saying that you are not a concept but a conglomeration of ever changing elements? If so, the view "I am a conglomeration of ever changing elements" is a personality view. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Victor > op 04-04-2003 23:28 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > Perhaps you should ask Nina if she is a concept or not. > N: A conglomeration of ever changing elements. > By the way, Victor, I am reminded of what Dharam said: it should not be > disagreeable to disagree. > Nina 20973 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 3:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi KKT, Is what is dukkha fit to be regarded thus: "This is mine. This I am. This is my self?" Regards, Victor > KKT: What is impermanent > is dukkha, OK. But I don't see > clearly how << what is dukkha >> > could be << not self >> ? > > Could you give an explanation? [snip] > > Peace, > > > KKT 20974 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Aug 6, 2004 8:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi RobertK, > > The view you are holding is a wrong view. > > Regards, > Victor Dear Victor, In the chapter on Purification of View, Ditthi-Visuddhi-niddesa, (visuddhimagga XV11131 ) it says:" The mental (nama) and material (rupa) are really here , but here no human being is to be found." Is that how you understand it and if so where did you find a divergence in my post? RobertK > > > [snip] > > I think there really are no women or Nina or computer, Larry. > [snip] > > RobertK 20975 From: christhedis Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 10:21pm Subject: Re: equanimity Hi James, Thanks for your reply. It's very nice. Although I am interested in what might happen after death, I am more "concerned" right now about what might happen to me now in this lifetime if I practise Buddhism. Specifically about how I would be if I conditioned my mind to become equanimous. I am apprehensive about how extinguishing my desires would affect my development as a person. If I begin to develop equanimity through vipassana meditation, will I be on= a "one-way road" to loss of all desires, and will my conditioned mind be "trapped" and not be able to reverse the process even if it wanted to? You say that no-one in this group has achieved full enlightenment? But, can some people give me their personal experiences of the results of practise of vipassana meditation? Thanks for your help, Chris. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" > wrote: > > Thanks for your reply. Please inform me, what is "tanha"? > > > > The source of my concern about whether or not to train is an > > apprehension about the "correctness" (maybe not the best word, > sorry) > > of the philosophy behind it and what the effect of the training > would > > be. > > > > It is said below that happiness is beyond all worldy attachments. > If > > there is no rebirth, then what, practically stated, is there? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Chris. > > Hi Chris, > > No one in this group knows what nibbana is like or what is after > nibbana when the enlightened person dies. It sounds like you want > some guarantees. You are afraid of what might happen to you after > you die if you practice Buddhism. I have a question for you: What > difference does it make? What if I promised you a heaven filled > with worldly delights and unending pleasures, would you want to > practice then? What if I threatened you will burn in a lake of fire > for all eternity if you didn't practice, would you practice then? > How would you know I was correct? Wouldn't that simply be > manipulating you? > > The Buddha didn't do that type of manipulation. He just said, "I > have discovered the truth." No one can describe that truth for you; > you have to discover it for yourself. Something has brought you to > Buddhism. For some reason, it rings a bell of familiarity in you, > but you are scared of the consequences of practice. Just take it > slow. Read some books, see if they make sense, and keep coming back > to them as you see fit. This is a Buddhist group of those who have > few doubts in the Buddhdhamma and are rushing toward that finish > line of nibbana; it is somewhat advanced you could say. Keep that > in perspective and realize you don't have to be at that point now or > overnight. It is a slow process and you need to start from where > you are. No one is going to convince you to be a Buddhist, which is > futile. The choice is up to you…don't rush to make a choice. > > Metta, James 20976 From: rahula_80 Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 11:49pm Subject: Help (Fear, Worry, etc...) Hi, Recently, I am feeling worried, scared for no reason. (maybe there is, but I don't know or maybe I don't want to admit it) I am feeling lonely, empty too. I have never felt lonely before in my life no matter how lonely I am. In fact I enjoy being lonely. Does any of you ever felt like this before? If yes, how do you deal with it? I have tried almost everything I know. I have tried taking a walk. Tried meditation but not working. I used to be able to meditate easily, even automatically but not anymore. Will these books by Pema Chodron help? ("When Things Fall Apart" and "The Place That Scare You") Thanks, Rahula 20977 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: equanimity --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christhedis" wrote: > Hi James, > > Thanks for your reply. It's very nice. > > Although I am interested in what might happen after death, I am > more "concerned" right now about what might happen to me now in this > lifetime if I practise Buddhism. Hi Chris, I wasn't completely sure what you were 'concerned' about, just that you were 'concerned'. As far as the results of Vipassana meditation, I only have one bit of advice through such a medium as the Internet: It will get worse before it gets better. Metta, James 20978 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 0:19am Subject: Re: Help (Fear, Worry, etc...) --- Dear Rahula, Although psychology and self-help books, and all religions have very comforting medicines and messages, I think - if we want to truly overcome fear- we have to go to the heart of it: Fear depends on self view. Once self view is gone then fear goes too. I have mentioned before how I developed a fear of flying. I used to have strange sensations coursing through the body when taking off and my palms would sweat. And I would feel guilty about being scared too. But through learning to see vedana(feelings), thinking and all the (khandas)aggregates, even consciousness, as not me or mine gradually - over a couple of years - the fear diminished. Now flying is a time when I feel probably most relaxed- because nothing to do. And the lessons learnt from this fear have carried over into my general life. It was a gift. If you want the fear to go away then you are caught up in tanha (wanting) - it prolongs it. If you think you can make it go away, you are caught up self view (thinking khandhas are controllable. If you think you shouldn't have fear then that is mana (conceit). And all these are not self too, they arise and can be insighted - and thus can lead you to the right path. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > Recently, I am feeling worried, scaredfor no reason. (maybe there > is, but I don't know or maybe I don't want to admit it) I am feeling > lonely, empty too. I have never felt lonely before in my life no > matter how lonely I am. In fact I enjoy being lonely. > > Does any of you ever felt like this before? If yes, how do you deal > with it? I have tried almost everything I know. I have tried taking a > walk. Tried meditation but not working. I used to be able to meditate > easily, even automatically but not anymore. > > Will these books by Pema Chodron help? ("When Things Fall Apart" > and "The Place That Scare You") > > Thanks, Rahula 20979 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 0:24am Subject: Re: Help (Fear, Worry, etc...) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > Recently, I am feeling worried, scared for no reason. (maybe there > is, but I don't know or maybe I don't want to admit it) I am feeling > lonely, empty too. I have never felt lonely before in my life no > matter how lonely I am. In fact I enjoy being lonely. > > Does any of you ever felt like this before? If yes, how do you deal > with it? (James: Yes I have. I used to fight it in different ways, for many years, and then I just surrendered. Just surrender to the empty feeling, don't fight it, and it will go away.) I have tried almost everything I know. I have tried taking a > walk. Tried meditation but not working. I used to be able to meditate > easily, even automatically but not anymore. (James: Just continue to meditate. Observe the empty feeling and loneliness, rest with it. Your meditation will become different...deeper.) > > Will these books by Pema Chodron help? ("When Things Fall Apart" > and "The Place That Scare You") (James: Sure. You might also like to read the book 'Nothing Special') > > Thanks, Rahula Metta, James 20980 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha KKT --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Dear everyone, ... > KKT: I want to share > some thoughts on this topic. > > The Buddha taught the teaching > of << no-self >> by analysing > the body/mind into 5 aggregates > to show that no self could be found. Thanks for coming in on this thread and sharing your thoughts. If I may comment here, I see the Buddha as teaching that *what is taken for the body/mind* (i.e., what is taken for 'a person') is nothing but 5 aggregates and is absent of any self. To my thinking, this is slightly different from saying that he *analysed the body/mind* ('person') into 5 aggregates, because that seems to suggest that something called a body/mind ('person') 'exists' on the same way as do the 5 aggregates. In terms of satipatthana/vipassana, however, it is only the 5 aggregates that are to be understood, there is not any development of understanding of the body/mind ('person). But perhaps any differences between us here are simply a matter of expression, not of substance ;-)) > Therefore this analysis is merely > a << means >> to help people > to achieve the << aim >> that is > the realization of no-self (anatta) > (the finger pointing to the moon :-)) > > From the analysis of 5 aggregates, > Abhidhamma made a further exhaustive > analysis into 82 irreducible basic > dhammas called paramattha dhammas. > > The purpose of this analysis is another > << finger pointing to the moon >> > rather than aiming at an exposition > of the realities of man & the universe. > > My point is that > << don't take the finger for the moon >> > ie. don't forget that the realization > of anatta should be the main object. Each of the 5 aggregates has the characteristic of 'no-self'. The more understanding there is of the true nature of the 5 aggregates, the more there is the seeing of 'no-self'. Jon 20981 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 1:14am Subject: Re: Help (Fear, Worry, etc...) Dear Rahula, Robert and James have given good advice. I am seeing a lot of people in the last month or so who are saying they are feeling just as you describe. They had been leading happy and fulfilling lives and were as puzzled as you are about the reason for the sudden anxiety symptoms. Most felt alone and vulnerable, for the first time. Many mentioned the seeming pointlessness of life. A common thread that they all raised was the impact of the constant media images and deluge of information about the Iraq war, the general helplessness of ordinary people, and the debates and discussions. In addition, they mentioned the media publicity about unexpected arising of the SARS virus and its rapid spread with health authorities seemingly helpless to control it and protect people. They weren't frightened of these things - but it was like an inescapable background noise. Please consider having a general physical examination by your doctor and, if you are given the all clear, (as I suspect you will be), try not listening to the T.V. or radio news for a few weeks, or reading news papers. If you have to, just click onto an internet site that shows the main news headlines in print and only read a story if it vitally affects your daily life. Please ensure you are eating a nutritious diet and cut out any high fat fast foods. Take a multi-vitamin tablet. Reduce your caffeine intake - try leaving out all tea, coffee, cola drinks chocolate bars and biscuits. Chamomile tea is a calming substitute for regular tea and coffee. Even though you have been happy with your own company, try visiting relatives and an old friend more often for a while. It is very beneficial and calming to do regular exercise - at least three times a week - but five times would be good at the moment, if you have no physical reason that prevents this. Exercise helps if you have been waking in the early hours of the morning or having trouble getting off to sleep. Do an internet search on Anxiety and remedies. Knowledge is power, when one is feeling powerless. All of these things helped the people I see to a greater or lesser degree. They may be worth trying. The only way you will find out if the books you mentioned will help is by putting into practice what you read. I wish you well Rahula - just remember that there is not one of us who has not, at some time or another, experienced what you are going through. For each of us it is a different experience, which is produced by a different set of circumstances and causes a different set of reactions, even when, like you, we cannot pin point the exact cause. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > Recently, I am feeling worried, scared for no reason. (maybe there > is, but I don't know or maybe I don't want to admit it) I am feeling > lonely, empty too. I have never felt lonely before in my life no > matter how lonely I am. In fact I enjoy being lonely. > > Does any of you ever felt like this before? If yes, how do you deal > with it? I have tried almost everything I know. I have tried taking a > walk. Tried meditation but not working. I used to be able to meditate > easily, even automatically but not anymore. > > Will these books by Pema Chodron help? ("When Things Fall Apart" > and "The Place That Scare You") > > Thanks, Rahula 20982 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard and Jon, > I join Howard in his appreciation for Jon's post. I printed it out > for > Lodewijk, because we just discussed this and I have great trouble > explaining > this to Lodewijk. Perhaps we are too close, and Jon's words will > help him > more. No computer is still O.K., but, there is no Nina, and he > starts yelling. Are there other approaches that can help him? > Nina. This is a difficult one. It occurred to me when writing that post to Victor that the idea of objects being nothing more than a concept must be a very radical and even threatening proposition for most people. That being so, might it be better left unsaid at times? If a person can accept the momentary nature of consciousness, and how this means that in terms of direct experience an object can be known only by thinking through the mind-door, then this may be sufficient. Introducing the idea of 'objects as concept only' (even though it follows necessarily from the foregoing) could be counterproductive if it produces a reaction that directs the person's attention away from the central message of understanding by direct experience the true nature of the presently appearing conditioned phenomena. If we remain focussed on this, then I suppose it doesn’t really matter whether there is the intellectual acceptance of 'objects as concept' or not. Just a thought. Jon 20983 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > The frame of reference that you mentioned is the frame of reference > that you have adopted. With that kind of frame of reference, the > thinking and discussion tends to be focused on whether things exist > or not. > > As I see it, that kind of reference frame is complicated and > convoluted. I don't see that the Buddha adopted anything like > that. I see it as irrelevant to the Buddha's teaching. On the subject of different frames of reference (conventional vs. ultimate), please see the entry from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' below. I read this as saying that while the Buddha's sermons were usually couched in terms of conventional speech they are to be understood at an ultimate/absolute level. In the many discourses dealing with the six senses, for example, the Buddha is pointing out that the way things are in reality is different from the way the world is generally perceived by the unenlightened person ('uninstructed worldling'). Although we are relative beginners in the journey, we can still gain a level of intellectual appreciation of the underlying message. My post was an attempt at explaining that difference (from an uninstructed wording's perspective). Of course, what is important is how it all relates to the present moment. I would like to propose the following for discussion: In conventional terms: A person says/thinks, 'I see a computer'. In ultimate terms: Many different moments and conditioned phenomena, among them seeing consciousness experiencing visible object, each of these sense-door experiences conditioning mind-door moments that assemble the ideas of 'person/I', 'computer' and 'seeing'. Any comments on this example? Jon From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' Paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desaná) 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohára-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance whith undeluded insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech (vohára-vacana). ... It should be noted, however, that also statements of the Buddha couched in conventional language, are called 'truth' (vohára-sacca), being correct on their own level, which does not contradict the fact that such statements ultimately refer to impermanent and impersonal processes. ... 20984 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Let me ask this: > Is a computer fabricated? Does it last forever? Does it break > down, disintegrate eventually? Is it permanent or impermanent? > > Regards, > Victor I agree that in ordinary, everyday terms of speech it is correct to say a computer isn't permanent. However, is this all the Buddha meant when he said 'sabbe sankhara anicca'? I don’t think so. The fact that 'objects' are impermanent is a relatively superficial 'truth', something that is capable of being readily understood by most people, based on their every-day experience of life. It is not one of the major delusions by which we live, hardly a samsara-buster. To my understanding, the impermanence spoken of by the Buddha as a *characteristic of all conditioned phenomena* alludes to the rapid rise and fall of conditioned phenomena, and this is something that cannot be apparent to a person who has not (a) heard the teachings and (b) developed insight into the true nature of the presently occurring dhammas. We must know what exactly these conditioned phenomena are. To my understanding they are the dhammas that the Buddha spoke about so much in the suttas: the khandhas (aggregates), dhatus (elements) or ayatanas (sense-fields), otherwise spoken of as the 'six sixes'. Jon 20985 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] please no attachments. Dear Selamat, I am delighted to hear from you again. I would like to ask you and all friends a favour: please, please, do not send attachments, because every time my Email is clogged and I have to go to help desk. They had to throw everything away, so I do not know now what you wrote. Perhaps you could just write to me on dsg? I like to hear about your active group and I am sure everyone here is interested. Nina. op 05-04-2003 14:51 schreef cbn op nana_palo@c... > I've just sent you an email with 2 attachment files to your own email to > ask for your help. > anumodana. > > selamat rodjali 20986 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] the person Hi Victor, op 06-04-2003 00:56 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > Are you saying that you are not a concept but a conglomeration of > ever changing elements? > > If so, the view "I am a conglomeration of ever changing elements" is > a personality view. N: We had this discussion before, and then Howard explained to you how to take it. Because I use the word I am in conventional language. I could say:what we take for a person is only a conglomeration of ever changing elements. You also write:< With Abhidhamma method that you mentioned, the Buddha's teaching would be distorted and misunderstood.> We had many discussions on the abhidhamma, I shall not repeat them. Thus, there are different opinions. Can you accept that? Nina. 20987 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sariputta's Lion Roar (was: Buddhaghosa) Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > > > Sarah: What do you understand vipassana to refer to and do you have > > any textual support for it? > > Majjhima Nikaya 119 > Kayagata-sati Sutta > Mindfulness Immersed in the Body > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. ..... You quoted this sutta in full. (When it’s a long one and on line, just the link is fine - I’ll still read it;-)). It is very similar to the Satipatthana Sutta, so all the commentary notes being posted and discussed in the Way corner are relevant I believe. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn119.html ..... Sarah:> > If you concentrate on the movement whilst shampooing your head, > > in what way is this wholesome? Are you sure it is the concentration > > that leads to the wise reflection on anatta? > Swee Boon:> It is the concentration on the arising and dissolution of volition > that leads to the wise reflection on anatta. > > I discern the arising and dissolution of volition from hand position A > to B, from B to C, from C to D, from D to E and back to A from E, all > these taking place in just a moment of seconds. ..... The sutta you quoted is about the development of mindfulness (sati) and undestanding of realities whilst walking, standing, sitting and so on. If there isn’t any understanding of various namas and rupas appearing now without any selection, I don’t understand that there can be the understanding of the arising and falling away of these realities. I don’t understand the sutta to be talking about the concentration of volition as you describe it. Which lines specifically suggest this to you? ..... > I do not think that I would be able to discern such a rapid and > repetitive arising and dissolution of volition without right > concentration. ..... Isn’t it motivated by desire that makes one wish to discern particular mind states in this way? What about just understanding what is conditioned now for just a moment without any wishing to know any particular state or wishing to be able to discern in this way. Isn’t it motivated by one’s desire for results? I think it takes one further away from understanding anatta rather than closer. The more understanding of anatta and conditionality, the less concern there is in how much or little awareness or concentration there is and the less inclined one is to follow a particular practice to try and make them arise, imho. ..... > When I realized the nature of volition as such, I realized that > volition is not-self. There is no self that IS the volition or > POSSESSES the volition. ..... Why just volition? Why not any reality - lobha, visible object, hardness, tasting.....Sometimes the realizing is just thinking, which is fine, but we should know it is this rather than the direct experience of impermanence or anatta at this moment. Where does the Buddha suggest just focussing on cetana (volition)? .... Sarah:> > If you had never come across books in your library discussing dhammas > > and anatta, would there be any beginning of insight into any of these > > phenomena arising now? > Swee Boon:> Certainly not, Sarah. But theory and intellectual >manipulations would > not make today an Enlightenment Day. .... Why be concerned about making ‘today an Enlightenment Day’ and instead see the value of just a beginning to understand directly a nama or rupa appearing now without any special intention or counting? I believe the desire for results and higher insights can be so strong, in spite of all we’ve heard about anatta, that it can hide the truth about what is actually appearing at this moment. Let me quote something Sukin wrote: “I think many do not understand the value of pariyatti, that even this is a level of panna and that higher levels ae built upon this initial level. Our greatest enemy is avijja, not a non-concentrated mind. The reason Buddha realized anatta is not because his mind became more concentrated, but because this veil of delusion was finally lifted. Concentration is not a rarity, everyone has it. But our objects of concentration are the concepts built upon ignorance accumulated over eons. This is why according to my understanding, any development along the path of buddhadhamma, hinges upon the distinction between concept and reality. And that distinction can only start with the intellectual knowledge of the Teachings.” ..... If there is any particular part of the sutta you quoted that you would like to discuss in more detail, I’d be glad to do so. I know that there are many of my comments here that you don’t agree with which is fine. In the good old days when I lived in a temple, followed the ‘Vipassana meditation practice’ and thought (and encouraged to believe) I had had various higher insights I wouldn’t have agreed either;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 20988 From: nidive Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: Sariputta's Lion Roar (was: Buddhaghosa) Hi Sarah, > The sutta you quoted is about the development of mindfulness (sati) and > undestanding of realities whilst walking, standing, sitting and so on. The Buddha repeated this phrase very often in that sutta: "And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered.". To my understanding, this sutta describes the development of right mindfulness culminating in right concentration. At the end of the sutta, the Buddha said: "Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, ten benefits can be expected. Which ten?". "[10] Through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here & now." Relating to the ending of the mental effluents, the Buddha said in Anguttara Nikaya IV.41: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. When right concentration cultivated through right mindfulness is used to investigate the arising and falling away of the five clinging-aggregates, it leads to the ending of the mental effluents. > If there isn't any understanding of various namas and rupas appearing now > without any selection, I don't understand that there can be the understanding > of the arising and falling away of these realities. I don't understand what you mean. I don't select, as far as I know. > I don't understand the sutta to be talking about the concentration of volition as > you describe it. Which lines specifically suggest this to you? No, that sutta did not talk about this. That sutta talks about developing right mindfulness culminating in right concentration. > Isn't it motivated by desire that makes one wish to discern particular > mind states in this way? What about just understanding what is conditioned > now for just a moment without any wishing to know any particular state or > wishing to be able to discern in this way. I don't think I made any wishes at all. I am aware of the my own mind states most of the time. > Why just volition? Why not any reality - lobha, visible object, hardness, > tasting.....Sometimes the realizing is just thinking, which is fine, but > we should know it is this rather than the direct experience of > impermanence or anatta at this moment. Where does the Buddha suggest just > focussing on cetana (volition)? I don't think I said anything to that effect. If I did, then I apologize to you. No, all the five aggregates have to be comprehended. I do discern the arising and falling away of the rest of the aggregates. But I think focusing on volition makes a stronger impact for me. Some people may like to focus on feelings for stronger impact. For example, Christine. Some people may like to focus on form for stronger impact. For example, the Buddha's son, Rahula. > Concentration is not a rarity, everyone has it. But our objects of concentration are the > concepts built upon ignorance accumulated over eons. This is why according to my understanding, > any development along the path of buddhadhamma, hinges upon the distinction between concept > and reality. And that distinction can only start with the intellectual knowledge of the Teachings. Some people say the crux of the crux of the Buddha's Teachings is to differentiate the distinction between concept and reality. Is there any sutta that supports this? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 20989 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] from babyhood to corpse Dear Nina (& Lodevijk), Perhaps if Lodevijk has no problem with computer as concept, he can send a few helpful comments to Victor too;-) Perhaps the jump from ‘computer as concept’ to ‘Nina as concept’ is too big and so the babyhood reminds me that we need to introduce some baby steps;-) How about a plant and then an insect and then a dog before Nina??? We cling to ‘computers’ and ‘Ninas’ as being realities and perhaps fear that the world we’re so familiar with will fall apart or we find it too painful to consider the world through the 6 doors. I understand this, but instead of being fearful, I find it the greatest comfort to understand at this moment that there is just the world of seeing, the world of hearing and so on. K.Sujin always reminds us that anything can happen at any time. We don’t know when we will get sick or experience good or bad vipaka. Understanding realities a little more helps us to face up to any test. When we take the concepts for truths, it’s so disturbing when we watch the pictures of War or we are so concerned about the worldly conditions. When there is awareness of seeing or visible object, of hardness (whether of the ‘computer’ or ‘Nina’) experienced through the body-sense, there is no disturbance at all. The citta is calm at that moment of awareness. Of course, normal everyday life continues with all the usual attachments. Nothing changes except a little more right understanding is accumulated and a little more wrong view is reduced or eradicated at least at the time. For Victor and Lodevijk, the question also is, if Nina is real, what doorway is she experienced through? I hope you both have a good trek. Metta, Sarah ======= Nina:> No Victor, because there is a change each moment, I am no longer >baby > Nina. > Growing older and then a corpse. Only ever changing nama and rupa. __________________________________________________ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer 20990 From: cbn Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] please no attachments. Dear Nina, In last three years, Abhidhamma has a growing interest by many Buddhists in many Viharas in line with the growing interest for practising Vipassana in Indonesia. I always try to fulfill their needs for discussion, some centres at Jakarta and Tangerang once a month, Bandung, Bali, Surabaya and on temporary Pabbajja classes for graduated students which held by Sangha Theravada Indonesia in Bogor periodically. We understand that we still have limmited tools, manuals and supports (from Indonesian Buddhist institutions) for Abhidhamma studies either in Bahasa Indonesia or English language. We use your book (Buddhism in daily life as we translated it into Bahasa Indonesia long years ago and we plan to re-print next 3 months). We also use Abhidhamma for the Beginner by Egerton C. Baptist (I translated it into Bahasa Indonesia but not publish as a book because lack of dana) and your books "Abhidhamma in daily life, Cetasikas, Realities and Concepts" which you and Robert Kirkpatrict sent me long years ago as a Dhamma Gift (and not yet translated until now). Personally, I have followed this mail list as a pasive reader and so on other mail list, Paligroups, Nibbana.com etc. Every Saturday, we still try to have an Abhidhamma session in Bogor, as a morning break with Dhamma, and an afternoon session for beginners; some Christian, Moslem, and Hindu also attend the session. Dear Nina, the attachements I sent you yesterday was about one of our Dhamma teachers (Mr. Hendra Ashadi) in connection with his family in Netherland. An urgent letter from him to his family because the decrease of his health. I write it in another email the background why I sent to your personal address. Anumodana for your kind attention. May you be well and happy. muditacittena, selamat rodjali JL. CITY No. 9 A Bogor 16123 Indonesia Phone: 0251. 359974 ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] please no attachments. > Dear Selamat, > I am delighted to hear from you again. I would like to ask you and all > friends a favour: please, please, do not send attachments, because every > time my Email is clogged and I have to go to help desk. They had to throw > everything away, so I do not know now what you wrote. > Perhaps you could just write to me on dsg? I like to hear about your active > group and I am sure everyone here is interested. > Nina. > > op 05-04-2003 14:51 schreef cbn op nana_palo@c... > > I've just sent you an email with 2 attachment files to your own email to > > ask for your help. > > anumodana. > > > > selamat rodjali 20991 From: Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi, Jon (and KKT) - In a message dated 4/6/03 4:14:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > KKT > > --- phamdluan2000 wrote: >Dear everyone, > ... > >KKT: I want to share > >some thoughts on this topic. > > > >The Buddha taught the teaching > >of <>by analysing > >the body/mind into 5 aggregates > >to show that no self could be found. > > Thanks for coming in on this thread and sharing your thoughts. > > If I may comment here, I see the Buddha as teaching that *what is > taken for the body/mind* (i.e., what is taken for 'a person') is > nothing but 5 aggregates and is absent of any self. > > To my thinking, this is slightly different from saying that he > *analysed the body/mind* ('person') into 5 aggregates, because that > seems to suggest that something called a body/mind ('person') > 'exists' on the same way as do the 5 aggregates. In terms of > satipatthana/vipassana, however, it is only the 5 aggregates that are > to be understood, there is not any development of understanding of > the body/mind ('person). ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Exactly so. The other formulation, which often is just a way of speaking and not meant literally, can be understood to be, as Victor sometimes points out, a "view on self". ------------------------------------------------------- > > But perhaps any differences between us here are simply a matter of > expression, not of substance ;-)) > > >Therefore this analysis is merely > >a <>to help people > >to achieve the <>that is > >the realization of no-self (anatta) > >(the finger pointing to the moon :-)) > > > >From the analysis of 5 aggregates, > >Abhidhamma made a further exhaustive > >analysis into 82 irreducible basic > >dhammas called paramattha dhammas. > > > >The purpose of this analysis is another > ><> > >rather than aiming at an exposition > >of the realities of man &the universe. > > > >My point is that > ><> > >ie. don't forget that the realization > >of anatta should be the main object. > > Each of the 5 aggregates has the characteristic of 'no-self'. The > more understanding there is of the true nature of the 5 aggregates, > the more there is the seeing of 'no-self'. > > Jon > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 20992 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi Jon, If you do see that computer is fabricated, impermanent, does not last forever, breaks down, disintegrates eventually, then let me ask this: Is what is impermanent dukkha/unsatisfactory or easeful? Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > Let me ask this: > > Is a computer fabricated? Does it last forever? Does it break > > down, disintegrate eventually? Is it permanent or impermanent? > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > I agree that in ordinary, everyday terms of speech it is correct to > say a computer isn't permanent. However, is this all the Buddha meant > when he said 'sabbe sankhara anicca'? I don't think so. > > The fact that 'objects' are impermanent is a relatively superficial > 'truth', something that is capable of being readily understood by > most people, based on their every-day experience of life. It is not > one of the major delusions by which we live, hardly a samsara- buster. > > To my understanding, the impermanence spoken of by the Buddha as a > *characteristic of all conditioned phenomena* alludes to the rapid > rise and fall of conditioned phenomena, and this is something that > cannot be apparent to a person who has not (a) heard the teachings > and (b) developed insight into the true nature of the presently > occurring dhammas. > > We must know what exactly these conditioned phenomena are. To my > understanding they are the dhammas that the Buddha spoke about so > much in the suttas: the khandhas (aggregates), dhatus (elements) or > ayatanas (sense-fields), otherwise spoken of as the 'six sixes'. > > Jon 20993 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 7:11am Subject: Defining Self-view: For Victor Dear Victor How are you? You asked: "I am interested to know what you mean by self-view and how you define it." Buddhists do not accept the existence of self because they accept only the four ultimate selfless realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates and nibbana. But, the selfless view of the Buddhists at the pre-awakening level is mainly based on reasoning. They haven't penetrated the selfless nature of things like an Ariyan has. To become an Ariyan, one must reach at least the stage of a stream insider (sotaapanna). In short, Buddhists still work with self-view while they know intellectually that there is no self. A pre-enlightenment Buddhist does not believe in the existence of self, but behaves as though there were self. Self-view can be defined in terms of the result of failure to observe and deconstruct the natural phenomena thoroughly. To cure the illness of self-view, one must regularly observe the natural phenomena and learn the practice of their exhaustive deconscruction. Someone who regularly observe and deconstruct the natural phenomena exhaustively is called a specialist in Abhidhamma. Only specialists in Abhidhamma are true followers of Gotama the Buddha becuase the Buddha taught only the natural phenomena in various formats, combinations and lengths. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: Hi Suan, I am interested to know what you mean by self-view and how you define it. Regards, Victor 20994 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Help (Fear, Worry, etc...) Dear Rahula, ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 > If you want the fear to go away then you are caught up in tanha (wanting) - it > prolongs it. If you think you can make it go away, you are caught up self view > (thinking khandhas are controllable. If you think you shouldn't have fear then that > is mana (conceit). And all these are not self too, they arise and can be insighted - > and thus can lead you to the right path. > Robertk I think Robert's right and would like to add a little. It's worth noting that there's no one afraid behind the fear--just fear itself fearing for a very brief moment, then disappearing. If you're walking down the street afraid and suddenly hear birdsong, or see a nice smile, for a moment there's delight--but no one behind the delight. Then if you stub your toe hard on the curb or smell something disgusting, a moment of something else--aversion, say--and no one behind that, either. All of these moments can be followed by moments of observation and understanding and these are different moments, too--with no one observing or understanding. With all these moments arising and completely subsiding in VERY rapid succession, where is 'Rahula'? Dying and being reborn every instant, with each new mental moment and factor? At least these moments can be seen as being impermanent and not-self (or where did 'Rahula' go when they went away?). The unsatisfactoriness of them is more or less obvious depending on the feeling (pleasant, unpleasant or neutral) attending each moment. Even though reflections like these might (most probably) be conceptual and unreal (that is, not real, profound insight) they can still be conditions for moments of detachment--no attachment, no fear or loneliness. This is how I see it, anyway. mike 20995 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Jon and Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott > It occurred to me when writing that post to Victor that the idea of > objects being nothing more than a concept must be a very radical and > even threatening proposition for most people. > > That being so, might it be better left unsaid at times? In the formula below, "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." -- AN V.198 'at the right time' and 'beneficially' seem to me to apply--hard to know what will be beneficial or what the right time is. One can only try, I think. mike 20996 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer as dukkha Hi RobertK, Both the view "there are no women or Nina or computer" and what you quoted focus on what exist and what does not exist. The view "there are no women, no Nina, no computer" is neither correct in itself, nor is it relevant to the Buddha's teaching, nor is it helpful/conducive for reaching the goal of the liberation. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: [snip] > Dear Victor, > In the chapter on Purification of View, Ditthi-Visuddhi-niddesa, > (visuddhimagga XV11131 ) it says:" The mental (nama) and material > (rupa) are really here , but here no human being is to be found." > Is that how you understand it and if so where did you find a > divergence in my post? > RobertK [snip] 20997 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 8:22am Subject: Re: the person Hi Nina, Yes, there are different opinions and views. It is simply that some of those opinions and views are assumptions, speculative, not in line with the Buddha's teaching. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > op 06-04-2003 00:56 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > > > Are you saying that you are not a concept but a conglomeration of > > ever changing elements? > > > > If so, the view "I am a conglomeration of ever changing elements" is > > a personality view. > N: We had this discussion before, and then Howard explained to you how to > take it. Because I use the word I am in conventional language. I could > say:what we take for a person is only a conglomeration of ever changing > elements. > You also write:< With Abhidhamma method that you mentioned, the Buddha's > teaching > would be distorted and misunderstood.> > We had many discussions on the abhidhamma, I shall not repeat them. Thus, > there are different opinions. Can you accept that? > > Nina. 20998 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 11:17am Subject: Perfections, Ch 8, Truthfulness, no 13 Perfections, Ch 8, Truthfulness, no 13 We read in the Commentary to the ³Hårita Jåtaka² (no. 431) that King Brahmadatta was at that time reigning in Varånasí. King Brahmadatta in the past was the Venerable Ånanda of the present time. The text states: At that time, the Bodhisatta was born in a brahmin family who possessed wealth worth eighty crores, and because of his golden complexion his parents called him Young Goldskin, Hårita Kumåra. When he was grown up and he had been educated at Takkasilå, he thought: ²The treasure that my parents assembled is still there, but my parents who were seeking that treasure have died, they do not exist anymore.² When he was considering this, he understood that he himself would also have to die, and hence he gave away his wealth and became a recluse in the Himalåya, where he cultivated Jhåna, until he could realize the five supernatural powers and the eight attainments. When he wished to obtain salty or sour food, he left the forest, went to the city of Varånasí and reached the Royal Park. When the king saw him he had confidence in him and offered to have a dwelling place built for him in the Royal Park. He assigned an attendant to wait on him. The recluse obtained food from the palace and he lived there for twelve years. Later on the king went away to pacify a conflict at the frontier and committed the care of the recluse to the queen who from then on ministered to him with her own hands. One day she had prepared his food, and as he delayed his coming, she bathed in scented water, put on a soft tunic of fine cloth, and opening the lattice, she lay down on a couch and let the wind play upon her body. When the recluse came flying through the air to the window, the queen heard the rustling sound of his bark garments. When she stood up quickly, her robe of fine cloth fell off. As soon as the recluse saw this, his defilements which had been dormant for thousands of aeons, rose up like a poisonous snake lying in a box, and hence his skill in jhåna disappeared. The recluse who was unable to apply mindfulness, went inside, seized the queen by her hand and then they gave themselves over to misconduct. His misconduct was rumoured throughout the whole city and the king¹s ministers reported this in a letter to the king. The king could not believe what was told him and he thought: ³They say this, because they are eager to damage him.² When he had pacified the border country, he returned to Varanasí and asked the queen: ²Is the rumour true that the recluse Hårita and you misconducted yourselves?² The queen answered that it was true. The king did not believe this, although the queen said that it was true. The king went to the park, saluted the recluse, and sitting respectfully on one side, he spoke the first stanza in the form of a question: ³Great brahmin, I heard it said, the recluse Hårita leads a sinful life. I take it that this is not the truth and you are pure of conduct?² The recluse thought: ²If I say that I did not indulge in sin, the king would believe me, but in this world there is no surer foundation than truthful speech. Someone who forsakes the truth cannot attain Buddhahood, even if he sits in the sacred enclosure of the Bodhi Tree. Hence I should only speak the truth. In certain cases a Bodhisatta may destroy life, take what is not given to him, commit adultery, drink strong liquor, but he may not tell a lie, speech that violates the truth. Therefore, speaking only the truth he uttered the second stanza: ³The rumours, great King, you have heard are true. Infatuated by the objects of delusion, I have done wrong.² Hearing this the king spoke the third stanza: ³Keen paññå is intent on what is beneficial. It can abandon lust that has arisen within you. For what benefit do you have paññå, if you cannot dispel sinful thoughts.² 20999 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 11:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] negligence and diligence. Dear Larry, op 05-04-2003 20:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Have a productive kammavipaka on your hike. N: Thank you. I just received a wonderful Dhamma gift from one of the Pali teachers, I can take along, I just love it. We receive such texts a few times a week. Nina. from Pali Yahoo: Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 1 – Further Readings Ex. 1. (Part 1 of 2) 1. Monks, indeed I do not perceive another single mental quality that thus leads to the confusion and disappearance of the true doctrine, other than negligence. Negligence, monks, leads to the confusion and disappearance of the true doctrine. Naaha.m, bhikkhave, a~n~na.m ekadhamma.m pi samanupassaami, yo eva.m saddhammassa sammosaaya antaradhaanaaya sa.mvattati, yathayida.m, bhikkhave, pamaado. Pamaado, bhikkhave, saddhammassa sammosaaya antaradhaanaaya sa.mvattatiiti. Monks, indeed I do not perceive another single mental quality that thus leads to the continuation, non-confusion, and non-disappearance of the true doctrine, other than diligence. Diligence, monks, leads to the continuation, non-confusion, and non-disappearance of the true doctrine. Naaha.m, bhikkhave, a~n~na.m ekadhamma.m pi samanupassaami, yo eva.m saddhammassa .thitiyaa asammosaaya anantaradhaanaaya sa.mvattati, yathayida.m, bhikkhave, appamaado. Appamaado, bhikkhave, saddhamassa .thitiyaa asammosaaya anantaradhaanaaya sa.mvattatiiti.