21800 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mana and other akusala Hi Ken and Sarah, > > You asked why I have been quiet for so long; actually, I > > respond to dsg posts almost every day but rarely hit the > > "send" button. Often, I have a fear of saying the wrong > > thing. Mike has kindly suggested that this is due to > > ottappa (moral dread), but I think we all know mana > > (conceit), is the most likely culprit. > ..... > Just think of us all with metta and hit Â`sendÂ';-) As far as I'm concerned, > you always say just the right thing! I agree with Sarah here and you may like to compare with this; I write, I fear of saying the wrong thing, I consider if I should send or not, and I do so because I have wasted so much time and energy in writing, that I believe that it should be good enough. Mana + attachment here. Also I think Mike is right to some extent. I do believe that someone such as you, would be having many moments of ottapa arising as well, it can't be all mana. :-) I think the habit of judging oneself is something we all have been conditioned from very young age, it has been the way people around us use to correct our behavior. There is a feeling that if I detect my faults, I am somehow being good. But only now with dhamma do we know that it is akusala, no different from judging others. So I absolutely agree with the following. > Â"It is thanks o the Abhidhamma that we can learn what we do not know, > otherwise we may believe that we have a great deal of understanding, we > may accumulate even more conceit than we have already.Â" > > So, Sukin, just be glad there is some wise reflecting and comprehension of > these states and some realisation of their unwholesome > characteristics....otherwise it could be even worse;-) :-) > You may like to review these posts in U.P. which contain a lot of info. I > think the last one (by Jon) answers questions about mana and wrong view: > ***** > Conceit (mana) > 4072, 4405, 7594, 11570, 11650, 11866, 12931, 13626, 13674, 17732, 20227 > > Conceit vs wrong view of self > 11868, 20141 > ***** :-( Too much hard work and no time.... > I think we can all see how much time is spent concerned with ourselves in > one way or other - even now whilst wishing there was less conceit or less > thinking of self, there is still the finding of oneself as important in > one way or other. You should have seen what my initial thoughts were!! I noticed the self importance part, but I wrote something anyway. But I was also interested in knowing the answer because like I said, this was different from other akusala. I have never had resenment for more than a few minutes, and the object of lobha easily changes. But this seemed very persistent and I was wondering what it was that was feeding the general mood. I know that there is always thinking of a story, but even when I identify this story, (or maybe it is a misidentification?), it does not go away. But I have caught it in the initial stages, and during such time, it does go away. And of course I now keep this in the drawer, the same section as the imponderables. :-)) > ..... > > I can't help with your questions, sorry, they're too > > technical. But I notice that you don't make a show of > > being hard on yourself; you make an objective appraisal > > of the cetasikas involved. I should learn from that; > > putting myself down, as I often do, probably doesn't help > > anyone. People are bound to wonder, "If he says that > > about himself, what must he say about us?" > ..... > ;-) > ..... > > This leads me to a question I've been meaning to ask for > > some time: We are told that whenever kusala citta has > > the concept of another living being as its object, then > > either metta, karuna, mudita or upekkha arises with it. > > What is the case when kusala citta has the concept of > > one's own self as object? I accept that there can't be > > metta, (maybe there could be upekkha), but I wonder if > > such a kusala citta even exists. In other words, I > > wonder if all concepts of one's own self are akusala.(?) > ..... > I think it was suggested recently that adosa (non-aversion) and metta were > synonymous. I think that metta is one kind of adosa and whilst the brahma > viharas including metta can only be to others, there can in theory be > adosa with oneself as object. Adosa and alobha accompany all kusala > cittas. However, I think that moments of thinking of oneself with kusala > cittas must be extremely rare. ItÂ's easier for me to think of examples for > the Buddha reflecting on the qualities of the Tathagata, for example. > Certainly when we wish ourselves well or other common examples given, the > reflections are rooted in attachment, I think . I wonder what it would be to think of oneself with kusala...??!! > ..... > > Certainly, even an arahant has to think of himself > > conceptually from time to time -- as RobK says; how else > > could he cross the street? > ..... > Exactly. The aim is not to stop thinking about particular objects (inc. > oneself), but to understand the different dhammas. In our case, unlike the > arahantÂ's, moha and attachment would be predominant I think at these > times. > ..... > IÂ'll leave your other question as I need to read the D. Issues first. > maybe Sukin or Nina will help. Nina! not Sukin. Sukin only knows how to expand on what others have written. But I like the question, it gives me a new view of what really is a monk. Thanks to you both. Metta, Sukin. 21801 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing only sees. Dear Rob M, Thank you very much. I just have one point that puzzles me somewhat:as I understand it, the other cittas in the eye-door process also experience visible object, not a mental image. I remember I had a conversation about this or something similar with Howard. It is just the term mental image. Also in the subsequent mind-door process the object is visible object, not a mental image. There was some discussion about this before in view of vipassana nana: it is visible object that is realized by insight knowledge through the mind-door, in a mind-door process. It knows through the mind-door nama as nama and rupa as rupa, not a mental image of rupa. It helps to differentiate the functions of physical base, vatthu and doorway, dvara. I see it more this way: cittas know on object through a doorway, I would not stress: they access it through a base, since this is only the place of origin of the citta, although it is the same rupa in the case of seeing, namely the eyesense. I would not use the word mindbase for the physical base of cittas, since this is also the word used for manaayaatana. If you like to avoid the word heart base, you could say, the rupa which is the base for those cittas. After seeing has seen visible object it is succeeded by other cittas which also experience visible object since this has not fallen away, it lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, comparing the duration of rupa with the duration of citta. Thus, it is still experienced, it is not a mental image. Perhaps Dhamma Issues no. 1 on ayatanas could be of interest here, quoting only a part : Nina. op 29-04-2003 06:25 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The seeing consciousness citta is the only citta in the > sense door citta process that "directly" touches the rupa (visible > object); the subsequent cittas in the same sense door citta process > only access a mental image (through the mind-base). > - In the case of the remaining 16 cittas, the object must be > accessed through the mind-base. For these cittas, the object is a > mental image. This is a "less direct" connection than occurs with > the seeing consciousness, so there is a need for the cetasiaka > vitakka "to provide an introduction to the object" and there is a > need for the cetasika vicara to "sustain connection with the object". 21802 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 3:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Hi Again!!!!!!!!!!!! Hi Janice, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:30 AM > > Hi Kom, > Sorry I did not write to you for so long as I > spent most of my time in San Francisco during my > Easter holidays!!!!! I hope you find some colorful eggs :-). > Here are some questions: > Did the Buddha die because of illness or sacrificed > himself? What is the dhamma anyways? How does > mindfulness help you when you are frustrated or if you > cannot solve a problem? > That is it for now!!!!!! > Metta, > Janice > > The Buddha is said to die of old age. The Buddha sacraficed himself not by dying, but by accumulating wisdom for aeons to bring forth the knowledge of dhamma to people. The teaching of the Buddha is called the dhamma. But dhamma is also all the things that we experience. When you type, your fingers touch the keyboard, but what you really experience is the hardness/softness, heat/coldness of the keyboard. Hardness/softness, heat/coldness are called the dhamma. When you feel angry, you feel this unpleasant feeling, this unpleasant feeling is also the dhamma. Dhamma is all the things that we experience. When there is mindfulness, there is actually no anger or frustration. If you have lots of mindfulness, you actually won't feel too angry or frustrated. For people with wisdom (and mindfulness), they know that the anger/frustration is also just a dhamma, something that is out of control. When anger/frustration arises, can you say (truthfully) that there is no anger? All things come to be by its own conditions, and hence, if there are conditions for anger, anger must arise --- we cannot control the dhamma. Anger and frustration are not very useful emotions/dhammas. If you know this, and you are mindful that you are having one of it, then you may be bound to have less of it. This is the power of mindfulness and wisdom. kom 21803 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:35pm Subject: Re: Mana and other akusala Hi Ken and Sarah, > This leads me to a question I've been meaning to ask for > some time: We are told that whenever kusala citta has > the concept of another living being as its object, then > either metta, karuna, mudita or upekkha arises with it. > What is the case when kusala citta has the concept of > one's own self as object? I accept that there can't be > metta, (maybe there could be upekkha), but I wonder if > such a kusala citta even exists. In other words, I > wonder if all concepts of one's own self are akusala.(?) What about if one is wisely reflecting on the benefit of moderation in eating, and then one turns the attention to applying it to oneself? Metta, Sukin 21804 From: Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi, Mike (and Victor) - In a message dated 4/30/03 11:05:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > > Dear Howard and Victor, > > First, I have great respect for both your understanding and the quality of > your posts. That said, I hope you're both wrong about this(!), as I > certainly don't ever expect to master the jhaanas. Assuming you're right, > though, let me ask this: Do you think the great many laypeople in the > suttanttaa who attained enlightenment were all jhaana masters? Certainly > the path arose and was perfected in them. > > In my (often faulty) memory of the discourses, I don't recall the Buddha > instructing laypeople in jhaana bhavana (corrections welcomed). My > impression is that this was (is?) an activity for recluses and that > 'amateur' jhaana bhavana by laypeople is a modern phenomena. In fact, it > has always seemed to me to be largely the basis for the Buddha's (vastly) > favorable comparisons to the life of a bhikkhu over that of a > layperson--that is, that the extraordinary moral/mental purity of conduct > (in the daily life of a bhikkhu) created a suitable environment for jhaana > bhavana. > > So, again (please excuse my long-windedness), were all these laypeople > jhaana masters? > > mike > ========================== I certainly don't think they were all jhana "masters"! I suspect that many had some jhana experience, but most didn't have even that. I think that stream entry is likely possible without any jhana experience, though access-level concentration is surely needed. I do think that attaining the jhanas, even "mastering" them is a possibility for many laypersons in many parts of today's world, due to the relatively easier life the mass of people have today compared to 2500 years ago. There are a good number of people fortunate enough to have the time and the financial wherewithal to attend many and lengthy meditation retreats, and to maintain a significant meditation practice on an ongoing basis throughout their life. Among these will be some with the "accumulations" conducive to mastering the jhanas. But, as I said, I do think that stream entry is a possibility even without jhana, and - hey! - obtaining stream entry wouldn't be a bad achievement for a lifetime, would it? (Let's not worry about becoming arahants at this point! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21805 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Jeff, > %%%%%%%%%%% > Jeff: > I am quite sure my good friend, if you establish a daily practice, and you > keep up your practice over a number of years, and you practice diligently you > will know what jhana is form personal experience. > %%%%%%%%%%% Thanks, but even if it really works, I wouldn't be able to. At work, five meters from my own shop, they sell computer speakers, so the level of noise is too high. At home I have two small boys who jump at me the moment I reach home, in fact on sundays if we don't go out, at the end of the day, I often end up with a fever. I don't even get much chance to sit and read mails. But the bathroom and in the car when caught in jams, are my favourite places for reading.:-) > %%%%%%%%%%% > Jeff: > No, my friend I speak of only one detachment. If one lets go, does not > attach, and remains alert and mindful, then the "unholsome" deminish and the > "holsom are exposed as non-arising subtle perception of delight and happiness. > %%%%%%%%%%% Maybe I should have added, that only a Buddha could see through the first kind of detachment. The rest were happy abiding in the first with the illusion that they had attained total liberation. > %%%%%%%%%%% > Jeff: > Freedom is not, my good friend, an intellectual process. The mind, as we > know it in the West as the thinking process, cannot grasp freedom, liberation > because it is the very cause of the imprisonment. We need only free > ourselves of the tyranny of our own thinking, concepts and mental states to > know freedom. > %%%%%%%%%%% Allow me to express my understandings regarding this. It may not be the same as other though. When I study Abhidhamma, it is not about holding on to the descriptions and using it as a tool for explaining experiences, as would a physicist or a evolutionary biologist or psychologist do. There may be times when that happens, but this would have been because I cannot experience those states as described in the texts right at that moment, but need to explain certain things anyway or to find out what are the possible conditions that may be involved. However I am more concerned about learning what the texts say about my normal everyday experiences and I don't go about trying to identify these. Instead, when there is even a low level of awareness, I am simply reminded of what I have understood from reading and there may be a deeper level of understanding because I now have a fresh memory of the same states to directly study. This may happen for a fraction of a second followed my ignorance as usual, but depending on conditions, the subsequent moments of thinking can also be known. Hence the importance of repeated study and hearing of the correct dhamma, because there are so many different kinds of states alternating, that the wider knowledge we have and the frequency of being reminded, there may be conditions when more and more dhammas are known. There is I think a general misunderstanding about he study of Abhidhamma, from the outside and if one does not have a good teacher like K. Sujin to teach it, it will look like one takes the knowledge to *apply*, this may be what some consider an 'intellectual overlay'. But this is not the correct way to study. One must have a firm understanding of the distinction between concept and reality, so that one can recognize the difference when there is awareness. One must understand anatta and conditions quite well, so that one does not then *try* to catch realities nor think that 'sati' can be made to rise by will or certain ritualistic practice. And when one is not trying to be mindful, only then can there be genuine insight I think. As Nina said, 'without the teachings, we could not have known all this'. Which means to my understanding, that if we leave it to our own subjective experience, without the Buddhas guide, we will interpret it all wrong. > %%%%%%%%%%% > Jeff: > Or, it can be an instant in which you let go of those "mind states." > But the instant would have been the culmination of zillions of years of development. ;-) Best wishes, Sukin. 21806 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Jeff, I would like to correct the following: > There is I think a general misunderstanding about he study of > Abhidhamma, from the outside and if one does not have a good teacher > like K. Sujin to teach it, it will look like one takes the knowledge > to *apply*, this may be what some consider an 'intellectual > overlay'. There is 'application' however, as in when one is 'seeing', then one is reminded that what is actually seen is just 'visible object'. So there may be a moment of not being drawn to the signs and the particulars. So I guess I must distinguish between 'applying with 'self'' and 'application by conditions'.:-) Hope this is clear. Best, Sukin. 21807 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma -akusala citta, akusala kamma Dear Rob M, back to my old dilemma: is every akusala citta akusala kamma? Did you find something in Milinda? I still wonder about Atthasalini: who gives the different requirements for akusala to be akusala kamma patha. He is very definite here. Even when I take up glass thoughtlessly: already akusala kamma? Looking out of the window? I doubt about this, would this not give rise to undue fears and scruples? Nina op 30-04-2003 01:51 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > All unwholesome mental states create bad kamma. > The "weight" of the kamma created depends on the intensity of the > volition, or will, behind the mental state. Strong will means strong > kamma. 21808 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] get together. Dear Sarah, what about January next year? Lodewijk thought this time not in Dec but change it for once to January?? Nina. op 30-04-2003 14:59 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Sarah > p.s. Nina’s new series from Kang Krajan prompts me to say that I hope our > get-together next Dec in Bkk works out again. All our planned trips so far > for this year so far have been cancelled for one reason or other including > Bkk at this time and also the Alaska trip is now cancelled for everyone > due to SARS. 21809 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi Howard, Mike (and Victor), > ========================== > I certainly don't think they were all jhana "masters"! I suspect that > many had some jhana experience, but most didn't have even that. I think that > stream entry is likely possible without any jhana experience, though > access-level concentration is surely needed. > I do think that attaining the jhanas, even "mastering" them is a > possibility for many laypersons in many parts of today's world, due to the > relatively easier life the mass of people have today compared to 2500 years > ago. There are a good number of people fortunate enough to have the time and > the financial wherewithal to attend many and lengthy meditation retreats, and > to maintain a significant meditation practice on an ongoing basis throughout > their life. Among these will be some with the "accumulations" conducive to > mastering the jhanas. But, as I said, I do think that stream entry is a > possibility even without jhana, and - hey! - obtaining stream entry wouldn't > be a bad achievement for a lifetime, would it? (Let's not worry about > becoming arahants at this point! ;-)) ====================== But isn't jhana about relinquishing worldly attachment, seeing danger in it and the benefit of kusala? Is it just about sitting down because of previous accumulations and habit? How will a person who *feels* secure and comfortable with regard to the world know detachment? In this case insecurity and security is just two sides of the same coin, no? And it seems you are implying that a stream enterer will have to practice jhana if he wants to reach higher levels. But I thought that a stream enterer is assured of at most seven lives, no? If you are saying that he will by conditions automatically practice jhana, then what about the fact that he has overcome silabattaparamasa? Hope I have not misunderstood you. Metta, Sukin. 21810 From: connie Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:42pm Subject: Re: Intro to Buddhism Hi, Sarah ~ I appreciate your encouragement, but like Sukin, have to say I only know how to expound on what others have written. I guess I still have some idea that telling people things is sort of like being one of the scribes copying the Torah with the belief that messing up one word will destroy the universe. But then, we want to end the world as we know it, don't we? >..............But I believe the best help we ever got from > God was when Buddha was sitting under the bo tree and might have decided > not to teach the Truth he had Enlightened to if Brahma had not said some > people would be able to understand. ..... Sarah: A further Q to you or anyone: The Buddha was omniscient, so what is the significance of Brahma saying what he would have known anyway? Connie: I don't know, but it's nice to be able to say 'God' did that for us and by implication, thinks 'practicing Buddhism' is the best way to honour him. How many times did Brahma have to say 'please teach'? In some of the Mahayana sutras, it is a big deal if Buddha starts to teach without being asked anything. There are also times when he has to be asked repeatedly, but for Pali Canon, now I can only think of when the dog (?) ascetic has to ask three times where those kinds of practices lead before Buddha answers. So maybe part of Brahma asking him is because of our resistance to really wanting to assimilate the truth? We are reminded that the highest gift (and responsibility?) is truth? Or that the biggest miracle involves teaching/learning rather than things like omniscience? Ok, there's my 3 guesses. ..... Sarah: It also reminds me of the Parinibbana sutta and the 'hint' about living for a normal lifespan which Ananda is reported not to have responded to (and was later rebuked for at the First Council) - why should Ananda's response or lack of be of such significance in determining the outcome of what would surely have been to everyone's benefit? Connie: And didn't Ananda, who listened to everything and obviously still missed the point (being wrapped up in his own thoughts?) also have three chances? Another reminder that we have to rely on ourselves... that if a Buddha was always around we might be even more complacent. And what was the point of him saying he would lay it all down in three months? peace, connie 21811 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu May 1, 2003 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhanas Dear Christine, ---------- > Did the Buddha strongly recommend mastery of the jhanas, not only as a refuge for here and now, but also as an essential part of the path? Are they essential? What about panna, what about ------------- Some rather broad questions there, Christine? :-) I see them as an invitation for speculative theorising. :-) So here goes: As you know, there are suttas in which the Buddha protects the priests of other religions. In the one I'm thinking of, he agreed to accept alms from a certain rich man, on condition that that man continue to support the priests of his former religion (who had become dependent upon him). Doesn't jhana fall into much the same scenario? Moments before the Buddha proclaimed his teaching, masters of jhana were the pinnacle of religious and intellectual hierarchy. They could teach a way that led to countless aeons of bliss. ('immediately followed by rebirth in the worlds of woe, but let's not be too critical.) Then, suddenly, there was a totally different Path that led, not to TEMPORARY release, but to FINAL release from dukkha. So who needs jhana masters? The Buddha spoke highly of them, he preached his first discourses to them and he encouraged them to continue their practices. He explained the ways in which an arahant with jhana attainment, was superior to an arahant without. But he also explained that, at Parinibbana, all arahants were equal. This included the omniscient Tathagatha, right down(!) to 'attainers by bare insight.' So how can there be any question as to which way we should go? I think it's a matter of samvega (sense of urgency). Do we have the time to learn jhana? We could die tomorrow, who knows when we will have another opportunity to hear the Dhamma? Had we the accumulations for jhana, our opportunity would be less tenuous. (I can't quote any sources for this, by the way.) In our preliminary practice, we would have developed, for example, the ability to remember past lives. So we would have the luxury of time. In such a case, it would be quite appropriate that we emulate the Buddha more closely and that we develop psychic powers. In so doing, we could both pay more respect and be better able to pass on the teaching. I think it's safe to say that you and I are not such highly developed beings -- but are any of us? If, twenty-six centuries ago, a person had the accumulations for jhana, wouldn't he/she have followed the Eight-fold Path to Parinibana by now? (The obvious exception would be a Bodhisattha, of course.) Since that time, would anyone have *acquired* accumulations for jhana? -- in preference to developing vipassana? I don't see why. So I wonder, today, in this human realm, is the real jhana taught or practised by anyone?(!) Kind regards, Ken H 21812 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu May 1, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: Mana and other akusala Hi Sukin, > > In other words, I > > wonder if all concepts of one's own self are akusala.(?) > > > What about if one is wisely reflecting on the benefit of moderation > in eating, and then one turns the attention to applying it to > oneself? > Ah, well, that may be the one exception :-) Trying to support my proposition though, I wonder why one would turn the attention to oneself. Isn't it enough to UNDERSTAND the benefits of moderation in eating? Thoughts of benefiting oneself, by practising moderation have an unseemly hint of self-centredness. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 21813 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu May 1, 2003 3:38am Subject: Addressing a Bhikkhuni Dear Group, I will be attending a lecture on Monday on Vipassana given by Bhikkhuni Kusuma. I would like to know how one addresses a Bhikkhuni? "Bhikkhuni Kusuma is a fully ordained nun in the Theravada tradition. This caused much controversy which is still not resolved today. The ordination of women in the Theravada tradition was brought to Sri Lanka in the third century BC by Ven Sanghamitta. The lineage mysteriously died out in Sri Lanka 1000 years ago. However, Sri Lankan bhikkhunis had migrated to China and then to Korea. Bhikkhuni Kusuma was ordained through the lineage in Korea and is now a leader in the international movement to revive the ordination of women in the Theravada tradition. She is a Pali scholar, with a PhD in the bhikkhuni vinaya and is head of the Ayya Khema International Buddha Mandir in Sri Lanka. Prior to ordaining, Bhikkhuni taught English at university in Sri Lanka for 20 years, and raised 6 children. She is a kind, wise and very warm person." metta, Christine 21814 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu May 1, 2003 4:44am Subject: Re: Mana and other akusala Hi Ken, I have a feeling that you are absolutely right in this, though it is not very clear in my mind. I feel it has to do with seperate moments with no need to refer to the self. Seeing the danger in overeating is seeing the danger in over eating, it has nothing to do with 'self'. Am I on the right track? I guess I might have been able to understand it more readily had I ever had any moments of kusasla with respect to eating!! :-) This leads me to something I have been thinking about. Conventionally we say things like, "I've learnt a lesson." In other religions we learn about kusala and akusala, but always in relation to 'self'. We think that if we learn from past akusala action or from what the religions say about right conduct, we are 'improving' ourselves. My question is, "Are we?" Can there be any uprooting of kilesas without satipatthana and vipassana? Can there be the correct course of action without right view? Maybe I should think more about this before putting forward the questions. But maybe I'll find out more about mana! :-) Metta, Sukin. 21815 From: Date: Thu May 1, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 5/1/03 1:23:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sukin@k... writes: > > Hi Howard, Mike (and Victor), > > >========================== > > I certainly don't think they were all jhana "masters"! I suspect > that > >many had some jhana experience, but most didn't have even that. I > think that > >stream entry is likely possible without any jhana experience, though > >access-level concentration is surely needed. > > I do think that attaining the jhanas, even "mastering" them is a > >possibility for many laypersons in many parts of today's world, due to > the > >relatively easier life the mass of people have today compared to 2500 > years > >ago. There are a good number of people fortunate enough to have > the time and > >the financial wherewithal to attend many and lengthy meditation > retreats, and > >to maintain a significant meditation practice on an ongoing basis > throughout > >their life. Among these will be some with the "accumulations" > conducive to > >mastering the jhanas. But, as I said, I do think that stream entry is a > >possibility even without jhana, and - hey! - obtaining stream entry > wouldn't > >be a bad achievement for a lifetime, would it? (Let's not worry about > >becoming arahants at this point! ;-)) > ====================== > > But isn't jhana about relinquishing worldly attachment, seeing danger in > it and the benefit of kusala? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool. ------------------------------------------------------- Is it just about sitting down because of > > previous accumulations and habit? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: For any endeavor, we do better at what we are better suited for. Obviously, howver, as the old saying goes, "practice makes perfect." ------------------------------------------------------ How will a person who *feels* > > secure and comfortable with regard to the world know detachment? In > this case insecurity and security is just two sides of the same coin, no? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The point is that jhana practice takes lots of time. A person who leads a life that is a harsh, desperate battle for survival will not have that opportunity. Isn't that rather obvious? Even in the best of times, the Buddha saw being a "full-time practitioner," a bhikkhu, as optimal. ------------------------------------------------------ > > And it seems you are implying that a stream enterer will have to > practice jhana if he wants to reach higher levels. But I thought that a > stream enterer is assured of at most seven lives, no? > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know. Perhaps a stream enterer is in a better position to master jhanas. But I have read that it is possible to fall away from being a stream enterer. What have you read in that regard? --------------------------------------------------------- If you are saying > > that he will by conditions automatically practice jhana, then what about > the fact that he has overcome silabattaparamasa? > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: If you are implying that practicing the jhanas, as recommeneded again and again and again by the Buddha to his Bhikkhus, constututes an attachment to ritual, I think you are wildly off-base. The Buddha defined the first 4 jhanas as constituting right concentration, an integral part of the eightfold noble path. I find your position here to be extreme and off the mark. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Hope I have not misunderstood you. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know. I hope I *have* misunderstood you. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Sukin. > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21816 From: m. nease Date: Thu May 1, 2003 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas > Hi, Mike (and Victor) - > > In a message dated 4/30/03 11:05:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > mlnease@z... writes: > > > > > Dear Howard and Victor, > > > > First, I have great respect for both your understanding and the quality of > > your posts. That said, I hope you're both wrong about this(!), as I > > certainly don't ever expect to master the jhaanas. Assuming you're right, > > though, let me ask this: Do you think the great many laypeople in the > > suttanttaa who attained enlightenment were all jhaana masters? Certainly > > the path arose and was perfected in them. > > > > In my (often faulty) memory of the discourses, I don't recall the Buddha > > instructing laypeople in jhaana bhavana (corrections welcomed). My > > impression is that this was (is?) an activity for recluses and that > > 'amateur' jhaana bhavana by laypeople is a modern phenomena. In fact, it > > has always seemed to me to be largely the basis for the Buddha's (vastly) > > favorable comparisons to the life of a bhikkhu over that of a > > layperson--that is, that the extraordinary moral/mental purity of conduct > > (in the daily life of a bhikkhu) created a suitable environment for jhaana > > bhavana. > > > > So, again (please excuse my long-windedness), were all these laypeople > > jhaana masters? > > > > mike > > > ========================== > I certainly don't think they were all jhana "masters"! I suspect that > many had some jhana experience, but most didn't have even that. This is the way it seems to me, too. > I think that > stream entry is likely possible without any jhana experience, though > access-level concentration is surely needed. Again, this seems just right to me. > I do think that attaining the jhanas, even "mastering" them is a > possibility for many laypersons in many parts of today's world, due to the > relatively easier life the mass of people have today compared to 2500 years > ago. Maybe so, I can't tell about this. > There are a good number of people fortunate enough to have the time and > the financial wherewithal to attend many and lengthy meditation retreats, and > to maintain a significant meditation practice on an ongoing basis throughout > their life. Among these will be some with the "accumulations" conducive to > mastering the jhanas. But, as I said, I do think that stream entry is a > possibility even without jhana, and - hey! - obtaining stream entry wouldn't > be a bad achievement for a lifetime, would it? Absolutely. > (Let's not worry about > becoming arahants at this point! ;-)) Quite right! I guess I had misunderstood your and Victor's posts to say that mastery of jhaana was a prerequisite to (or at least an essential component of, as the eighth factor) the arising of the path. Thanks for the clarification (what a relief!). Mike > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21817 From: m. nease Date: Thu May 1, 2003 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing only sees. Dear Nina and RobM, Just quickly--yes, of course, it's the other cittas in a process. I don't habitually think of 'processes' because I have no insight into this (and only fairly weak theoretical knowledge)--so my conceptualization of vi~n~naa.na is grossly undersimplified. Thanks for the reminders. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing only sees. Dear Rob M, Thank you very much. I just have one point that puzzles me somewhat:as I understand it, the other cittas in the eye-door process also experience visible object, not a mental image. I remember I had a conversation about this or something similar with Howard. It is just the term mental image. Also in the subsequent mind-door process the object is visible object, not a mental image. There was some discussion about this before in view of vipassana nana: it is visible object that is realized by insight knowledge through the mind-door, in a mind-door process. It knows through the mind-door nama as nama and rupa as rupa, not a mental image of rupa. It helps to differentiate the functions of physical base, vatthu and doorway, dvara. I see it more this way: cittas know on object through a doorway, I would not stress: they access it through a base, since this is only the place of origin of the citta, although it is the same rupa in the case of seeing, namely the eyesense. I would not use the word mindbase for the physical base of cittas, since this is also the word used for manaayaatana. If you like to avoid the word heart base, you could say, the rupa which is the base for those cittas. After seeing has seen visible object it is succeeded by other cittas which also experience visible object since this has not fallen away, it lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, comparing the duration of rupa with the duration of citta. Thus, it is still experienced, it is not a mental image. Perhaps Dhamma Issues no. 1 on ayatanas could be of interest here, quoting only a part : Nina. op 29-04-2003 06:25 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The seeing consciousness citta is the only citta in the > sense door citta process that "directly" touches the rupa (visible > object); the subsequent cittas in the same sense door citta process > only access a mental image (through the mind-base). > - In the case of the remaining 16 cittas, the object must be > accessed through the mind-base. For these cittas, the object is a > mental image. This is a "less direct" connection than occurs with > the seeing consciousness, so there is a need for the cetasiaka > vitakka "to provide an introduction to the object" and there is a > need for the cetasika vicara to "sustain connection with the object". 21818 From: smallchap Date: Thu May 1, 2003 7:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Computer as conditioned Dear Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > >S: I know you are setting me up. I am a willing victim. :) > >J: Yes, I should tread carefully, if I were you ... S: ;-) > J: Yes, but may I ask, Does a computer arise, and if so, what are > some > of the conditions for its arising (that cause it to arise)? > > S: Yes. It does arise. > > Here are some of the conditions for it arising: > 1. the intention to build a computer; > 2. the availability of the necessary materials and components > for building a computer; > 3. the facilities; > 4. and the knowledge of building a computer. > > J: But is this an instance of what the Buddha was talking about when he > spoke of all 'sankhara'/'conditioned dhammas' being conditioned? S: Of course not. But they condition the computer, don't you agree? > J: The knowledge that a computer is built from parts and did not > spontaneously come into existence as an assembled whole is not the > kind of knowledge that is peculiar to the teaching of a Buddha. S: I agree. > J: To my understanding, the arising and falling away that the Buddha > talked about in suttas such as M.148 quoted by Swee Boon recently is > momentary rising and falling away, something that is not at all > apparent to one who has not developed insight into the true nature of > dhammas/fundamental phenomena. S: I agree. > J: So I woud say that we need to distinguish between conventional ideas > of impermanence (or conditioned nature), and impermanence (or > conditioned nature) in the ultimate sense as taught by the Buddha. S: The thought of conventional impermanence often triggers insight. It has its place in developing insight. It should not be regarded as something that will hinder insight. In the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta (MN 117), it is said: "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. So, one should not disregard conventional right view. smallchap ps. During "insight meditation", with the arising of insight knowledge, one can "see" or "feel" (not thinking! Because it is impossible to think when samadhi is strong) the arising and falling of the khandhas and directly know them as anicca, dukkha and anatta. 21819 From: smallchap Date: Thu May 1, 2003 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 6, no 2. Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Maybe someone else knows a reason? > I am interested. Could there be an exception or a special reason for this > case? I discussed it with my teacher some years ago. He said it could be due to Suddhodana's extra-ordinary accumulation (Parami) but it was not conclusive. Do you have a text? > I read in Pali Proper Names, II, p. 1201: when he was about to die, the > Buddha came from Vesali to see him and preach to him, and Suddhodana became > an arahat and died as a lay arahat. It does not say about a week. We do not > know how long he was on his death bed. I read it from Narada Thera's "The Buddha and His Teaching" ch. 8 (he wrote "A Manual of Abhidhamma") but unfortunately no reference was given. The Pali Proper Names points to Therigatha Commentery 141. You may want to check it out. I have no access to it neither can I read Pali. smallchap 21820 From: Lee Dillion Date: Thu May 1, 2003 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas m. nease wrote: > Dear Howard and Victor, > > First, I have great respect for both your understanding and the quality of > your posts. That said, I hope you're both wrong about this(!), as I > certainly don't ever expect to master the jhaanas. Assuming you're right, > though, let me ask this: Do you think the great many laypeople in the > suttanttaa who attained enlightenment were all jhaana masters? Certainly > the path arose and was perfected in them. > > In my (often faulty) memory of the discourses, I don't recall the Buddha > instructing laypeople in jhaana bhavana (corrections welcomed). My > impression is that this was (is?) an activity for recluses and that > 'amateur' jhaana bhavana by laypeople is a modern phenomena. In fact, it > has always seemed to me to be largely the basis for the Buddha's (vastly) > favorable comparisons to the life of a bhikkhu over that of a > layperson--that is, that the extraordinary moral/mental purity of conduct > (in the daily life of a bhikkhu) created a suitable environment for jhaana > bhavana. > > So, again (please excuse my long-windedness), were all these laypeople > jhaana masters? The discussion of jhanas has been occurring across multiple lists for the past few weeks. Here is a post that I made to the dhamma-list last week that may be of some help in describing the type of "momentary concentration" that the author of the referenced article believes "fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle": ----- I doubt we will resolve the perennial question of jhanic v. insight practices within Buddhism, but you might be interested in the article on the Jhanas at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html (a theravadin site) that discusses the relationship between the two approaches. I read the full article to stand for the following propositions; 1. The jhanas are neither necessary nor sufficient for awakening, but can be an effective vehicle for many to develop the necessary basis of concentration for insight. 2. Insight meditation, while requiring a degree of concentration, does not require formal jhanic practices. The "momentary concentration" of the insight approach "fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle." I personally do not do any jhana type meditation, but I have no reason to doubt that many can benefit from this approach as long as it is understood as providing a basis for insight and not as an end unto itself. An excerpt from the article on the Jhanas is as follows: --------- The Theravada tradition recognizes two alternative approaches to the development of wisdom, between which practitioners are free to choose according to their aptitude and propensity. These two approaches are the vehicle of serenity (samathayana) and the vehicle of insight (vipassanayana). The meditators who follow them are called, respectively, the samathayanika, "one who makes serenity his vehicle," and the vipassanayanika, "one who makes insight his vehicle." Since both vehicles, despite their names, are approaches to developing insight, to prevent misunderstanding the latter type of meditator is sometimes called a suddhavipassanayanika, "one who makes bare insight his vehicle," or a sukkhavipassaka, "a dry-insight worker." Though all three terms appear initially in the commentaries rather than in the suttas, the recognition of the two vehicles seems implicit in a number of canonical passages. The samathayanika is a meditator who first attains access concentration or one of the eight mundane jhanas, then emerges and uses his attainment as a basis for cultivating insight until he arrives at the supramundane path. In contrast, the vipassanayanika does not attain mundane jhana prior to practicing insight contemplation, or if he does, does not use it as an instrument for cultivating insight. Instead, without entering and emerging from jhana, he proceeds directly to insight contemplation on mental and material phenomena and by means of this bare insight he reaches the noble path. For both kinds of meditator the experience of the path in any of its four stages always occurs at a level of jhanic intensity and thus necessarily includes supramundane jhana under the heading of right concentration (samma samadhi), the eighth factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. The classical source for the distinction between the two vehicles of serenity and insight is the Visuddhimagga where it is explained that when a meditator begins the development of wisdom "if firstly, his vehicle is serenity, [he] should emerge from any fine-material or immaterial jhana except the base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and he should discern, according to characteristic, function, etc. the jhana factors consisting of applied thought, etc. and the states associated with them" (Vism. 557; PP679-80). Other commentarial passages allow access concentration to suffice for the vehicle of serenity, but the last immaterial jhana is excluded because its factors are too subtle to be discerned. The meditator whose vehicle is pure insight, on the other hand, is advised to start directly by discerning material and mental phenomena, beginning with the four elements, without utilizing a jhana for this purpose (Vism. 558; PP.680). Thus the samathayanika first attains access concentration or mundane jhana and then develops insight knowledge, by means of which he reaches the supramundane path containing wisdom under the heading of right view, and supramundane jhana under the heading of right concentration. The vipassanayanika, in contrast, skips over mundane jhana and goes directly into insight contemplation. When he reaches the end of the progression of insight knowledge he arrives at the supramundane path which, as in the previous case, brings together wisdom with supramundane jhana. This jhana counts as his accomplishment of serenity. For a meditator following the vehicle of serenity the attainment of jhana fulfills two functions: first, it produces a basis of mental purity and inner collectedness needed for undertaking the work of insight contemplation; and second, it serves as an object to be examined with insight in order to discern the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering and non-self. Jhana accomplishes the first function by providing a powerful instrument for overcoming the five hindrances. As we have seen, for wisdom to arise the mind must first be concentrated well, and to be concentrated well it must be freed from the hindrances, a task accomplished pre-eminently by the attainment of jhana. Though access concentration will keep the hindrances at bay, jhana will ensure that they are removed to a much safer distance. In their capacity for producing concentration the jhanas are called the basis (pada) for insight, and that particular jhana a meditator enters and emerges from before commencing his practice of insight is designated his padakajjhana, the basic or foundational jhana. Insight cannot be practiced while absorbed in jhana, since insight meditation requires investigation and observation, which are impossible when the mind is immersed in one-pointed absorption. But after emerging from the jhana the mind is cleared of the hindrances, and the stillness and clarity that then result conduce to precise, penetrating insight. The jhanas also enter into the samathayanika's practice in second capacity, that is, as objects for scrutinization by insight. The practice of insight consists essentially in the examination of mental and physical phenomena to discover their marks of impermanence, suffering and non-self. The jhanas a meditator attains provide him with a readily available and strikingly clear object in which to seek out the three characteristics. After emerging from a jhana the meditator will proceed to examine the jhanic consciousness and to discern the way it exemplifies the three universal marks. This process is called sammasanañana, "comprehension knowledge," and the jhana subject to such treatment is termed sammasitajjhana, "the comprehended jhana" (Vism. 607-11; PP.706-10). Though the basic jhana and the comprehended jhana will often be the same, the two do not necessarily coincide. A meditator cannot practice comprehension on a jhana higher than he is capable of attaining, but one who uses a higher jhana as his padakajjhana can still practice insight comprehension on a lower jhana which he has previously attained and mastered. The admitted difference between the padakajjhana and the sammasitajjhana leads to discrepant theories about the supramundane concentration of the noble path, as we will see. Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents the difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in a type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity, called "momentary concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration amidst a current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which flows from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena, retaining a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to purify the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training, but develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of serenity. Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of mental clarity needed for insight to emerge. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html#ch5.2 21821 From: yasalalaka Date: Thu May 1, 2003 9:15am Subject: Re: Jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lee Dillion wrote: > m. nease wrote: > > > Dear Howard and Victor, > > > > First, I have great respect for both your understanding and the quality of > > your posts. That said, I hope you're both wrong about this(!), as I > > certainly don't ever expect to master the jhaanas. Assuming you're right, > > though, let me ask this: Do you think the great many laypeople in the > > suttanttaa who attained enlightenment were all jhaana masters? Certainly > > the path arose and was perfected in them. > > > > In my (often faulty) memory of the discourses, I don't recall the Buddha > > instructing laypeople in jhaana bhavana (corrections welcomed). My > > impression is that this was (is?) an activity for recluses and that > > 'amateur' jhaana bhavana by laypeople is a modern phenomena. In fact, it > > has always seemed to me to be largely the basis for the Buddha's (vastly) > > favorable comparisons to the life of a bhikkhu over that of a > > layperson--that is, that the extraordinary moral/mental purity of conduct > > (in the daily life of a bhikkhu) created a suitable environment for jhaana > > bhavana. > > > > So, again (please excuse my long-windedness), were all these laypeople > > jhaana masters? > > The discussion of jhanas has been occurring across multiple lists for > the past few weeks. Here is a post that I made to the dhamma-list last > week that may be of some help in describing the type of "momentary > concentration" that the author of the referenced article believes > "fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle": > > ----- > I doubt we will resolve the perennial question of jhanic v. insight > practices within Buddhism, but you might be interested in the article on > the Jhanas at > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html (a > theravadin site) that discusses the relationship between the two > approaches. I read the full article to stand for the following > propositions; > > 1. The jhanas are neither necessary nor sufficient for awakening, but > can be an effective vehicle for many to develop the necessary basis of > concentration for insight. > > 2. Insight meditation, while requiring a degree of concentration, does > not require formal jhanic practices. The "momentary concentration" of > the insight approach "fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of > the serenity vehicle." > > I personally do not do any jhana type meditation, but I have no reason > to doubt that many can benefit from this approach as long as it is > understood as providing a basis for insight and not as an end unto itself. > > An excerpt from the article on the Jhanas is as follows: > > --------- > The Theravada tradition recognizes two alternative approaches to the > development of wisdom, between which practitioners are free to choose > according to their aptitude and propensity. These two approaches are the > vehicle of serenity (samathayana) and the vehicle of insight > (vipassanayana). The meditators who follow them are called, > respectively, the samathayanika, "one who makes serenity his vehicle," > and the vipassanayanika, "one who makes insight his vehicle." Since both > vehicles, despite their names, are approaches to developing insight, to > prevent misunderstanding the latter type of meditator is sometimes > called a suddhavipassanayanika, "one who makes bare insight his > vehicle," or a sukkhavipassaka, "a dry-insight worker." Though all three > terms appear initially in the commentaries rather than in the suttas, > the recognition of the two vehicles seems implicit in a number of > canonical passages. > > The samathayanika is a meditator who first attains access concentration > or one of the eight mundane jhanas, then emerges and uses his attainment > as a basis for cultivating insight until he arrives at the supramundane > path. In contrast, the vipassanayanika does not attain mundane jhana > prior to practicing insight contemplation, or if he does, does not use > it as an instrument for cultivating insight. Instead, without entering > and emerging from jhana, he proceeds directly to insight contemplation > on mental and material phenomena and by means of this bare insight he > reaches the noble path. For both kinds of meditator the experience of > the path in any of its four stages always occurs at a level of jhanic > intensity and thus necessarily includes supramundane jhana under the > heading of right concentration (samma samadhi), the eighth factor of the > Noble Eightfold Path. > > The classical source for the distinction between the two vehicles of > serenity and insight is the Visuddhimagga where it is explained that > when a meditator begins the development of wisdom "if firstly, his > vehicle is serenity, [he] should emerge from any fine-material or > immaterial jhana except the base consisting of > neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and he should discern, according > to characteristic, function, etc. the jhana factors consisting of > applied thought, etc. and the states associated with them" (Vism. 557; > PP679-80). Other commentarial passages allow access concentration to > suffice for the vehicle of serenity, but the last immaterial jhana is > excluded because its factors are too subtle to be discerned. The > meditator whose vehicle is pure insight, on the other hand, is advised > to start directly by discerning material and mental phenomena, beginning > with the four elements, without utilizing a jhana for this purpose > (Vism. 558; PP.680). Thus the samathayanika first attains access > concentration or mundane jhana and then develops insight knowledge, by > means of which he reaches the supramundane path containing wisdom under > the heading of right view, and supramundane jhana under the heading of > right concentration. The vipassanayanika, in contrast, skips over > mundane jhana and goes directly into insight contemplation. When he > reaches the end of the progression of insight knowledge he arrives at > the supramundane path which, as in the previous case, brings together > wisdom with supramundane jhana. This jhana counts as his accomplishment > of serenity. > > For a meditator following the vehicle of serenity the attainment of > jhana fulfills two functions: first, it produces a basis of mental > purity and inner collectedness needed for undertaking the work of > insight contemplation; and second, it serves as an object to be examined > with insight in order to discern the three characteristics of > impermanence, suffering and non-self. Jhana accomplishes the first > function by providing a powerful instrument for overcoming the five > hindrances. As we have seen, for wisdom to arise the mind must first be > concentrated well, and to be concentrated well it must be freed from the > hindrances, a task accomplished pre-eminently by the attainment of > jhana. Though access concentration will keep the hindrances at bay, > jhana will ensure that they are removed to a much safer distance. > > In their capacity for producing concentration the jhanas are called the > basis (pada) for insight, and that particular jhana a meditator enters > and emerges from before commencing his practice of insight is designated > his padakajjhana, the basic or foundational jhana. Insight cannot be > practiced while absorbed in jhana, since insight meditation requires > investigation and observation, which are impossible when the mind is > immersed in one-pointed absorption. But after emerging from the jhana > the mind is cleared of the hindrances, and the stillness and clarity > that then result conduce to precise, penetrating insight. > > The jhanas also enter into the samathayanika's practice in second > capacity, that is, as objects for scrutinization by insight. The > practice of insight consists essentially in the examination of mental > and physical phenomena to discover their marks of impermanence, > suffering and non-self. The jhanas a meditator attains provide him with > a readily available and strikingly clear object in which to seek out the > three characteristics. After emerging from a jhana the meditator will > proceed to examine the jhanic consciousness and to discern the way it > exemplifies the three universal marks. This process is called > sammasanañana, "comprehension knowledge," and the jhana subject to such > treatment is termed sammasitajjhana, "the comprehended jhana" (Vism. > 607-11; PP.706-10). Though the basic jhana and the comprehended jhana > will often be the same, the two do not necessarily coincide. A meditator > cannot practice comprehension on a jhana higher than he is capable of > attaining, but one who uses a higher jhana as his padakajjhana can still > practice insight comprehension on a lower jhana which he has previously > attained and mastered. The admitted difference between the padakajjhana > and the sammasitajjhana leads to discrepant theories about the > supramundane concentration of the noble path, as we will see. > > Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika > meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents the > difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a > basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know > things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what > concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in a > type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption > concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity, called "momentary > concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary > concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration amidst a > current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which flows > from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena, retaining > a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to purify > the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the > samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight, > but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in > the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind > upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of > insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training, but > develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of serenity. > Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five > aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment > acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his > investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same function > as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of > mental clarity needed for insight to emerge. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html#ch5.2 I am copying below my post No;21711 , which tried to explain the place of jhana in the teachings of the Buddha. After reading this, please say whether, this provided you with the necessary information or you would like to have further elaboration. with metta Yasalalaka ******** I was reading the several posts on Jhana, Samatha, and Meditation. I was beginning to discuss some of these very same matters with, Sukin, and he showed a disinclination to continue the discussion with me and I thought I had stepped on to unknown ground in trying to discuss meditation, when the members of the forum are primarily here to discus Abhidhamma. However, having read the several post I have mentioned, and being a member of this group to learn Abhidhamma, I thought I will make my contribution on Meditation and allied matters. During the time the Prince Siddhartha was born in ancient India, there was 62 different schools of philosophy. The well known teachers of some of them were, Purana Kassapa, Makkhali Ghosala, Ajita Kesakambila, Pakuddha Kachchayana, Niganta Nataputta and Sanjay Belathaputta. They practiced samata ( quietude)meditation, using Kasina, which are the 40 different types of arammana to develop concentration . In samath, the mind is quietened first by attaining one pointed concentration( samadhi). Continuing to develop the concentration, with the eyes fixed on the Kasina, they attain jhana( dyana) absorptions. There are eight stages of jhana absorptions, four rupa jhana, ( first, second, third ,forth) and four arupa jhana. (fifth,sixth,seventh, and eighth). The first four jhana develop the mind and go into a deep "silence", very calm and serene, no thoughts arise in the mind. At the third and the fourth stages, mind is so deeply concentrated the meditator will not be aware of the body. Thereafter, the fifth to eight stages of absorptions give the meditator supernatural power. The Hindu teachers,and philosophers practiced these meditations even before the Prince Siddhartha was born. Prince Siddhartha, saw the four signs, and knew there was untold suffering , among beings and thought that there must be a cause for this, and that one may be able to stop it by eliminating the cause. He studied under some of the great teachers at the time, I had mentioned earlier. But he was disappointed . Ascetic Siddhartha, thought that it is through self-inflicted pain that he may be able to delve into the truth, and practiced austerity for six years, having failed in that endeavour, he left his five devoted companions, and went on his own. The rest of the story we know. Lord Buddha, practiced the samatha, meditation following the anapanasati,( taking the in and out breath) as the object of concentration(arammana). That was a means of clearing the mind of the incessantly arising and falling away of the thought processes. At the forth jhana absorption the mind is clear, serene, calm, and alert, but incapable of any other mental activity. Therefore the Buddha, after attaining the fourth jhana, came out of it and continued looking into the causes of suffering, looking at the mental activity in different ways, that was the insight meditation (vipassana), the unique method found by the Buddha himself. In vipassana, the Buddha tried to see the ` working', not just the understanding, of impermanence(anicca), unsatisfactoriness( dukkha ) and no-self (anatta). It is only through this insight or penetrating into the working of his own mind that the Buddha, `saw' dukkha, its cause, the way out of it and its cessation. He was able to differentiate between the conventional truth and the ultimate truth. A being is just five aggregates ( rupakkhandha, vedenakkhandha,sannanakkhandha, vinnanakkhandha and sankharakkhandha), and the cause of this suffering is rooted in lobha, dosa, moha, which has created in the mind of the being that he is a person, a "self", and every thing around is permanent, pleasant, and that they are for his enjoyment. The Buddha knew that once the beings become aware of the irreality of this thinking, they will turn to his teaching, which will enable them to go through the same experience he went through and attain nibbana. With metta, Yasalalaka 21822 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu May 1, 2003 9:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi Howard, I am not surprised if indeed I am being too extreme, since most of my understandings are from inference and I never have the energy nor patience to consider them thoroughly, hence there must be some slant. The other point is, since I tend to generalize, there must be some degree of attachment too. There is nothing much that I can do about it, except rely on dhamma friends to correct me. But being on either side is something I definitely don't want to be, I want to be on the Middle Path. So lets see if you can help me. But of course I won't be able to get away from creating the impression anyway, since my style of expression itself, gives some impression of that extremism, unlike your own, which is usually quite friendly. ;-) S: > > But isn't jhana about relinquishing worldly attachment, seeing danger in > > it and the benefit of kusala? > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool. > ------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Is it? Is this what the ancient masters had in mind when they practiced it, are you sure?! I thought jhana was about developing very high levels of kusala. ---------------------------------------------------------- S: > Is it just about sitting down because of > > > previous accumulations and habit? > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > For any endeavor, we do better at what we are better suited for. > Obviously, howver, as the old saying goes, "practice makes perfect." > ------------------------------------------------------ Sukin: If you think that "Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool", then I can understand why you would make this conclusion. But we will have to establish "what is jhana" in the first place. So now I will have to invite other members to join in!! >------------------------------------------------------ S: How will a person who *feels* > > > secure and comfortable with regard to the world know detachment? In > > this case insecurity and security is just two sides of the same coin, no? > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The point is that jhana practice takes lots of time. A person who > leads a life that is a harsh, desperate battle for survival will not have > that opportunity. Isn't that rather obvious? Even in the best of times, the > Buddha saw being a "full-time practitioner," a bhikkhu, as optimal. > ------------------------------------------------------ Sukin: But if my understanding of jhana is correct, then I see equal danger in the life of luxury and comfort, ie, if he clings to it. I think a serious jhana practtioner must have resolved to relinquish all attachment to pleasure as well as pain. But I do agree that if he does not at least get food regularly and have a comfortable place to live, then it would not be conducive. It is for similar reason, I feel, that someone in those times would choose to ordained (leaving out exceptions). Only in this case it would be taking refuge in the Triple Gem primarily. Becoming a bhikkhu was not to practice jhana, but whatever it takes to reach vipassana. And jhana is not *the* practice for reaching vipassana, but satipatthana is. But all kusala supports one's development, and jhana is the highest kind of kusala with the exception of vipassana. So monks who had accumulations for jhana, practiced it, *why fight it*, besides one cannot be expected to have satipatthana all he time. But on the other hand, those who didn't have the accumulations, did not have to, they could practice bare-insight. And *why fight these accumulations* and make an attempt to practice jhana? --------------------------------------------------- S: > > And it seems you are implying that a stream enterer will have to > > practice jhana if he wants to reach higher levels. But I thought that a > > stream enterer is assured of at most seven lives, no? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know. Perhaps a stream enterer is in a better position to > master jhanas. But I have read that it is possible to fall away from being a > stream enterer. What have you read in that regard? > --------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Only that they have at most seven lives to live, and falling away from it is out of the question. It is an imposibility, no more kilesas that would make them puthujanas again. -------------------------------------------------------- S: > If you are saying > > > that he will by conditions automatically practice jhana, then what about > > the fact that he has overcome silabattaparamasa? > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > If you are implying that practicing the jhanas, as recommeneded again > and again and again by the Buddha to his Bhikkhus, constututes an attachment > to ritual, I think you are wildly off-base. The Buddha defined the first 4 > jhanas as constituting right concentration, an integral part of the eightfold > noble path. I find your position here to be extreme and off the mark. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I hope my explanation above helps to make my position clearer. When the Buddha asked his Bhikkhus to practice jhana, it was because that was natural to them. But since it does not have anything directly to do with the development of the path itself, it wouldn't constitute silabattaparamasa. But if you do make a connection between jhana and the ultimate goal of enlightenment, saying that jhana is indispensable, then it is silabattaparamasa. And if you insist that a sotapana must practice it, then it is a contradiction. ------------------------------------------------------ S: > > Hope I have not misunderstood you. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know. I hope I *have* misunderstood you. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Hope we both get it right, ultimately. :-) Metta, Sukin 21823 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 1, 2003 10:20am Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, no 3. At this moment a dhamma appears and it has a characteristic that can be known in accordance with what we learnt through the theoretical knowledge of realities. Citta, consciousness, is nåma and it is accompanied by several mental factors, cetasikas which are also nåma. Cetasikas experience the same object as the citta they accompany, but they perform each their own function. We were reminded time and again: ³People study citta, but they do not know the citta that is appearing now.² Seeing is a citta, it is nåma that experiences visible object. Visible object is rúpa that appears through the eyes. Hearing is another citta, different from seeing. I said to Acharn Sujin that I am forgetful of seeing that appears now, and hearing that appears now. She answered that I should listen again to the Dhamma, that I should listen and consider realities very often. Paññå does not know something other than what naturally appears at this moment. When a reality appears one at a time, nothing else can appear at that moment. It is true that only one dhamma appears at a time, and that the next moment another dhamma appears. We can verify that when seeing arises, there cannot be hearing at the same time. These two types of cittas arise because of different conditions: they experience a different object and they are dependent on a different base. We think about the dhamma that appears and we cling to it. However, this prevents us from being aware of other dhammas that appear afterwards. Acharn Sujin said to me: ²Never forget that at this moment a reality is appearing, and that one characteristic appears at a time.² Realities are appearing all the time, but they are not objects of sati, because we are forgetful. I was reminded that we only think of the story, the subject matter of nåma and rúpa. We have to be very sincere as to our own understanding. We may read a great deal about nåma and rúpa, but this is only theoretical understanding, different from sati-sampajaññå arising at the present moment. Understanding of the difference between thinking of realities and direct understanding of them is essential. I find that this was the most important lesson I learnt when I was in Thailand this time. I remarked that each time I come to Thailand, I realize more how little I know. Jonothan answered: ³When you realize this, does that not mean that there is more understanding? That is encouraging.² It is true: when we realize our deeply engrained ignorance and wrong view, it helps us not to have vain expectations about the growth of paññå. The Buddha taught people to develop right understanding of what appears at the present moment, and this is satipatthåna. 21824 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 1, 2003 0:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi Sukin, Howard, and all, Pardon me for jumping in. Sukin, could you explain what "silabattaparamasa" means? I tried to look it up but couldn't find it in the online Pali-English dictionary. Your explanation is appreciated. I would think that when the Buddha asked bhikkhus to practice jhana, it was not because that was natural to them. Rather, I would think it is because right concentration, like seven other factors in the Noble Eightfold Path, is necessary for reaching the goal of liberation. I would not say that jhana is not *the* practice for reaching vipassana. In fact, I see that concentration is necessary for reaching insight.* Your comments are much appreciated!! Regards, Victor * "The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023a.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Howard, > [snip] > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Is it? Is this what the ancient masters had in mind when they > practiced it, are you sure?! I thought jhana was about developing > very high levels of kusala. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > S: > > Is it just about sitting down because of > > > > previous accumulations and habit? > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > For any endeavor, we do better at what we are better suited > for. > > Obviously, howver, as the old saying goes, "practice makes > perfect." > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Sukin: > If you think that "Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool", then > I can understand why you would make this conclusion. But we will > have to establish "what is jhana" in the first place. So now I will > have to invite other members to join in!! > >------------------------------------------------------ > S: How will a person who *feels* > > > > secure and comfortable with regard to the world know detachment? > In > > > this case insecurity and security is just two sides of the same > coin, no? > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > The point is that jhana practice takes lots of time. A > person who > > leads a life that is a harsh, desperate battle for survival will > not have > > that opportunity. Isn't that rather obvious? Even in the best of > times, the > > Buddha saw being a "full-time practitioner," a bhikkhu, as optimal. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Sukin: > But if my understanding of jhana is correct, then I see equal danger > in the life of luxury and comfort, ie, if he clings to it. I think a > serious jhana practtioner must have resolved to relinquish all > attachment to pleasure as well as pain. > But I do agree that if he does not at least get food regularly and > have a comfortable place to live, then it would not be conducive. > > It is for similar reason, I feel, that someone in those times would > choose to ordained (leaving out exceptions). Only in this case it > would be taking refuge in the Triple Gem primarily. Becoming a > bhikkhu was not to practice jhana, but whatever it takes to reach > vipassana. And jhana is not *the* practice for reaching vipassana, > but satipatthana is. But all kusala supports one's development, and > jhana is the highest kind of kusala with the exception of vipassana. > So monks who had accumulations for jhana, practiced it, *why fight > it*, besides one cannot be expected to have satipatthana all he > time. But on the other hand, those who didn't have the > accumulations, did not have to, they could practice bare-insight. > And *why fight these accumulations* and make an attempt to practice > jhana? > --------------------------------------------------- > S: > > > And it seems you are implying that a stream enterer will have to > > > practice jhana if he wants to reach higher levels. But I thought > that a > > > stream enterer is assured of at most seven lives, no? > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I don't know. Perhaps a stream enterer is in a better > position to > > master jhanas. But I have read that it is possible to fall away > from being a > > stream enterer. What have you read in that regard? > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Only that they have at most seven lives to live, and falling away > from it is out of the question. It is an imposibility, no more > kilesas that would make them puthujanas again. > -------------------------------------------------------- > S: > > If you are saying > > > > that he will by conditions automatically practice jhana, then > what about > > > the fact that he has overcome silabattaparamasa? > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > If you are implying that practicing the jhanas, as > recommeneded again > > and again and again by the Buddha to his Bhikkhus, constututes an > attachment > > to ritual, I think you are wildly off-base. The Buddha defined the > first 4 > > jhanas as constituting right concentration, an integral part of > the eightfold > > noble path. I find your position here to be extreme and off the > mark. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > I hope my explanation above helps to make my position clearer. When > the Buddha asked his Bhikkhus to practice jhana, it was because that > was natural to them. But since it does not have anything directly to > do with the development of the path itself, it wouldn't constitute > silabattaparamasa. But if you do make a connection between jhana and > the ultimate goal of enlightenment, saying that jhana is > indispensable, then it is silabattaparamasa. And if you insist that > a sotapana must practice it, then it is a contradiction. > ------------------------------------------------------ > S: > > > Hope I have not misunderstood you. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I don't know. I hope I *have* misunderstood you. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Hope we both get it right, ultimately. :-) > > Metta, > Sukin 21825 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu May 1, 2003 1:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hello Victor, Nyanatiloka has an entry for silabbata-paramasa at: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_s.htm "sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.), and one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti). For definition, s. upádána." In an entry for 'upadana', silabbat is mentioned as part of a larger entry at: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html "They are classified as 4 upadanani or four Graspings viz. kam°, ditth°, silabbat°, attavad° or the graspings arising from sense-- desires, speculation, belief in rites, belief in the soul--theory D II.58; III.230; M I.51, 66; S II.3; V 59; Dhs 1213; Ps I.129; II.46, 47; Vbh 375; Nett 48; Vism 569." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Sukin, Howard, and all, > > Pardon me for jumping in. > > Sukin, could you explain what "silabattaparamasa" means? I tried to > look it up but couldn't find it in the online Pali-English > dictionary. Your explanation is appreciated. > > I would think that when the Buddha asked bhikkhus to practice jhana, > it was not because that was natural to them. Rather, I would think > it is because right concentration, like seven other factors in the > Noble Eightfold Path, is necessary for reaching the goal of > liberation. > > I would not say that jhana is not *the* practice for reaching > vipassana. In fact, I see that concentration is necessary for > reaching insight.* > > Your comments are much appreciated!! > > Regards, > Victor > > * "The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, > also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a > supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the > knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' > should be the reply." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023a.html > 21826 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 1, 2003 2:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hello Christine, Thank you very much for the references!! Now I understand what the word means! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, > > Nyanatiloka has an entry for silabbata-paramasa at: > > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_s.htm > > "sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to mere > rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.), > and one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears on > attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti). For definition, s. upádána." > > In an entry for 'upadana', silabbat is mentioned as part of a larger > entry at: > > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > "They are classified as 4 upadanani or four Graspings viz. kam°, > ditth°, silabbat°, attavad° or the graspings arising from sense-- > desires, speculation, belief in rites, belief in the soul--theory D > II.58; III.230; M I.51, 66; S II.3; V 59; Dhs 1213; Ps I.129; II.46, > 47; Vbh 375; Nett 48; Vism 569." > > metta, > > Christine 21827 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu May 1, 2003 1:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Howard: > If you are implying that practicing the jhanas, as recommeneded again > and again and again by the Buddha to his Bhikkhus, constututes an attachment > to ritual, I think you are wildly off-base. The Buddha defined the first 4 > jhanas as constituting right concentration, an integral part of the eightfold > noble path. I find your position here to be extreme and off the mark. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Howard, Just a small point. The Visuddhimagga notes about silabataparamsa (clinging to sila and ritual ) that it can include all levels of akusala (unwholesome) AND kusala(except satipatthana): So any kusala can be a support for satipatthana, but if it is seen wrongly it can atke one in the wrong direction too. "So rite and ritual clinging is a condition for all three namely the sense desire , fine material (the planes attained by the first 4 jhanas) and immaterial (the planes attained by jhanas 5 -8)kinds of becoming with their analysis and synthesis."XVii 267. The atthasalini differentiates between the type of jhana that arises when nibbana is attained. Even dry insight workers who have no experience of mundane jhana attain this special type of jhana that arises "in a momentary flash"- just for that instant. It is different from mundane jhana. Mundane jhana is said to add to the wall of samsara whereas supramundane jhana breaks the wall down. Robertk 21828 From: Date: Thu May 1, 2003 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi, Robert - In a message dated 5/1/03 5:18:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > Just a small point. The Visuddhimagga notes about silabataparamsa > (clinging to sila and ritual ) that it can include all levels of > akusala (unwholesome) AND kusala(except satipatthana): > So any kusala can be a support for satipatthana, but if it is seen > wrongly it can atke one in the wrong direction too. "So rite and > ritual clinging is a condition for all three namely the sense > desire , fine material (the planes attained by the first 4 jhanas) > and immaterial (the planes attained by jhanas 5 -8)kinds of becoming > with their analysis and synthesis."XVii 267. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thank you for the details, Robert. No doubt one can cling to practically any conditioned dhamma, including the jhanas. Such clinging is, of course, akusala and counterproductive. ------------------------------------------------------ > The atthasalini differentiates between the type of jhana that arises > when nibbana is attained. Even dry insight workers who have no > experience of mundane jhana attain this special type of jhana that > arises "in a momentary flash"- just for that instant. It is > different from mundane jhana. Mundane jhana is said to add to the > wall of samsara whereas supramundane jhana breaks the wall down. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: From my reading, the Buddha encouraged his Bhikkhus repeatedly to practice the jhanas, and this applied even to mere stream enterers and to worldlings; so we are talking about the mundane jhanas. The Majjhima Nikaya is *filled* with exhortations in that direction. Moreover, it is clear from a couple suttas that the Buddha used the base of the 4th jhana for his final liberation, and Sariputta, as recorded in the Anapada Sutta, used all 8 jhanas as a means to complete liberation. Certainly the Buddha didn't encourage his monks to "add to the wall of samsara". I have seen some Buddhists imply that the jhanas are practically the whole of the path, and I have seen others say the jhanas are completely expendable. I think these are two opposite extremities both of which are incorrect. ------------------------------------------------------- Robertk> > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21829 From: Date: Thu May 1, 2003 3:54pm Subject: Way 83, Consciousness Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Consciousness After explaining the ninefold Arousing of Mindfulness in regard to feeling, the Master began the explanation of the contemplation of consciousness in the sixteenfold way with the words, "And, how, o bhikkhus." In this section there is no reference to supramundane truth because in the sifting of things thoroughly to see their transient, pain-laden and soulless nature only the mundane things are handled, and so there is in this matter of penetrative knowledge of things no bringing together of mundane and supramundane things. Here follows the elucidation of terms mentioned in this section: Saragam cittam = "The consciousness with lust." Karmically unwholesome eight conscious states of the plane of existence of sense-experience. These are together with greed in the sense of springing from it. Vitaragam cittam = "The consciousness without lust." Karmically wholesome and karmically neutral mundane states of consciousness. The two spontaneous and non-spontaneous conscious states karmically unwholesome, accompanied by grief, linked to resentment, and springing from hate; the conscious state karmically unwholesome, accompanied by neither pain nor pleasure, linked to doubt and springing from ignorance; and the conscious state karmically unwholesome, accompanied by neither pain nor pleasure, linked to agitation, springing from ignorance -- these four do not associate with the consciousness-with-lust-division or the consciousness-without-lust division. Sodosam cittam = "The consciousness with hate." The two conscious states, karmically unwholesome, accompanied, by grief (mentioned above). Vitadosam cittam = "The consciousness without hate." Karmically wholesome and karmically neutral mundane states of consciousness. The other ten karmically unwholesome conscious states of the plane of existence of sense-experience do not associate with either the consciousness-with-hate division or the consciousness-without-hate division. Samoham cittam = "The consciousness with ignorance." The conscious state, karmically unwholesome, linked to doubt (mentioned above), and the conscious state, karmically unwholesome, linked to agitation (mentioned above). Because, indeed, ignorance arises in all karmically bad states, the other karmically bad states too should be mentioned, here. In just this division all the twelve karmically bad, unwholesome or unskillful conscious states are included. Vitamoham cittam = "The consciousness without ignorance." Karmically wholesome and karmically neutral mundane states of consciousness. Sankhittam cittam = "The shrunken state of consciousness." The conscious state fallen into sloth and torpor. That is called the shrivelled or contracted state of mind. Vikkhittam cittam = "The distracted state of consciousness." The conscious state accompanied by agitation. That is called the dissipated mind. Mahaggatam cittam = "The state of consciousness become great." The conscious state of the sensuous-ethereal [rupavacara] plane of existence and of the purely ethereal [arupavacara] plane of existence. Amahaggatam cittam = "The state of consciousness not become great." The conscious state of the plane of existence of sense-experience. Sauttaram cittam = "The state of consciousness with some other mental state superior to it." That refers to any conscious state belonging to the plane of sense-experience. Anuttaram cittam = "The state of consciousness with no other mental state superior to it." That refers to any conscious state belonging to the sensuous-ethereal [rupavacara] or the purely ethereal [arupavacara] plane. Samahitam cittam = "The quieted state of consciousness." It refers to the conscious state of him who has full or partial absorption. Asamahitam cittam = "The state of consciousness not quieted." It refers to the conscious state without either absorption. Vimuttam cittam = "the freed state of consciousness." That refers to the conscious state, emancipated partially from defilements through systematic or radical reflection, or to the conscious state, emancipated through the suppression of the defilements in absorption. Both these kinds of emancipation are temporary. Avimuttam cittam = "The unfreed state of consciousness." That refers to any conscious state without either kind of temporary emancipation. In the mundane path [lokiya magga] of the beginner there is no place for the supramundane kinds of emancipation through extirpation [samuccheda], stilling [patipassaddha] and final release [nissarana]. 21830 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu May 1, 2003 7:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mana and other akusala Sukin (and Sarah), ----------- > I have a feeling that you are absolutely right in this, ---------- Thanks. As you, [and also Sarah and Nina], have been saying lately, we should find out what the Abhidhamma has to say. Otherwise, we might be headed down a blind alley. Sarah has already joined in on this thread, so I look forward to her further comment/exposition. --------------- > We think that if we learn from past akusala action or from what the religions say about right conduct, we are 'improving' ourselves. My question is, "Are we?" Can there be any uprooting of kilesas without satipatthana and vipassana? Can there be the correct course of action without right view? > ----------------- I don't know either. We are told that even jhana can only suppress -- it can't eradicate. I suspect we have seen the answers to this on dsg but I, at least, have not fully absorbed them. For instance, RobK once wrote about how the word 'kusala' was derived from 'kusa grass' -- because it cuts both ways. He explained it twice for me but I have forgotten; does it mean kusala kamma eradicates akusala kamma in some way? On another occasion, I was having a non-cyberspace conversation with Sundara about the benefits of kusala. I couldn't see what was so good about it if it wasn't accompanied by right view. If it leads to continued existence in samsara, what's the ultimate use of it? Jon briefly commented, "Because, if it's not kusala, it's akusala." I'm sure I'm missing something but the impression I get from this, is that without right view, we have only one choice; the frying-pan or the fire. ------------- > Maybe I should think more about this before putting forward the questions. But maybe I'll find out more about mana! :-) > ------------ When you've solved the question of mana, I'll seek your impressions on macchariya (stinginess). At a recent meeting, Andrew told us that macchariya included 'stinginess with the Dhamma.' (!!!!) I have to wonder if my usual reluctance to contribute to dsg discussions doesn't amount to macchariya. Even poorly thought-out contributions are of value -- when they lead to helpful, kusala, corrections. Am I begrudging people this benefit on the basis, "I would have thought of that if I'd taken more time!" :-) Kind regards, Ken H 21831 From: Date: Thu May 1, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment To Sukin: In a message dated 4/30/03 8:12:54 PM, sukin@k... writes: << Thanks, but even if it really works, I wouldn't be able to. At work, five meters from my own shop, they sell computer speakers, so the level of noise is too high. At home I have two small boys who jump at me the moment I reach home, in fact on sundays if we don't go out, at the end of the day, I often end up with a fever. I don't even get much chance to sit and read mails. But the bathroom and in the car when caught in jams, are my favourite places for reading.:-)>> %%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Yes, my good friend Sukin, I know the house holder's path very well. When my children were born they had constant colic for 3 months, then it turned into constant teething. My daily practice was bouncing the little ones on my knee with my finger in their mouth to suck one while I sat in meditation. Now my youngest is 17 and I have had my sleep disrupted every other day for the last two weeks because he has been sneaking out of the house in the middle of the night and getting himself arrested with some under age girl drinking and driving. Yes, I know the householder's path very well. Believe me, if you are intent on enlightenment, you would find a way to meditate with a screaming child sucking on your finger, or while spending time in jail, or while being audited by the IRS or getting divorced or filing bankruptcy. I have though all of these, and yes, I know how difficult the house holders path is. %%%%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: Maybe I should have added, that only a Buddha could see through the first kind of detachment. The rest were happy abiding in the first with the illusion that they had attained total liberation. %%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Possibly, but remember attachment prevents jhana. If one is attached, there is no jhana. %%%%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: There is I think a general misunderstanding about he study of Abhidhamma, from the outside and if one does not have a good teacher like K. Sujin to teach it, it will look like one takes the knowledge to *apply*, this may be what some consider an 'intellectual overlay'. But this is not the correct way to study. One must have a firm understanding of the distinction between concept and reality, so that one can recognize the difference when there is awareness. One must understand anatta and conditions quite well, so that one does not then *try* to catch realities nor think that 'sati' can be made to rise by will or certain ritualistic practice. And when one is not trying to be mindful, only then can there be genuine insight I think. %%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Yes, I agree, I have no problem with scholarship. I have read the writings of the various masters all along after all. I found solace and guidance. But, I also practice avidly as well. That is all I urge anyone to do, is don't just read. One has to practice as often as possible. Best once or more a day. And, one should make an effort to attend retreats. All of my vacation time from work was spent on retreats. Now that I am a student, I have longer holidays, but no money. Fortunately the forest monasteries have opened, so I don't have to pay to practice. I can just go and offer myself to them and they are happy someone wants to practice. %%%%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: As Nina said, 'without the teachings, we could not have known all this'. Which means to my understanding, that if we leave it to our own subjective experience, without the Buddhas guide, we will interpret it all wrong. %%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: While I agree that the Buddha's instructions as recorded in the Pali canon are most excellent. There have been many Buddhas and many of them have left a written record, so there is Dhamma every where one looks. But, I also believe that the process of enlightenment is as natural as learning how to walk. Even without instruction, one who practices diligently will become enlightened. %%%%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: But the instant would have been the culmination of zillions of years of development. ;-) %%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: No, my friend, have more faith in yourself. In this very lifetime with all of the chaos in your life you can become enlightened. You just have to want freedom more than breath itself. Adalante Siempre adalante layman Jeff 21832 From: Date: Thu May 1, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment To Sukin: In a message dated 4/30/03 8:36:04 PM, sukin@k... writes: << Hi Jeff, I would like to correct the following: > There is I think a general misunderstanding about he study of > Abhidhamma, from the outside and if one does not have a good teacher > like K. Sujin to teach it, it will look like one takes the knowledge > to *apply*, this may be what some consider an 'intellectual > overlay'. There is 'application' however, as in when one is 'seeing', then one is reminded that what is actually seen is just 'visible object'. So there may be a moment of not being drawn to the signs and the particulars. So I guess I must distinguish between 'applying with 'self'' and 'application by conditions'.:-) Hope this is clear. Best, Sukin. >> %%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Thank-you kind sir for your clarification. Might I ask, do you mean, to be drawn to the 'signs' and 'particulars,' to mean in some way to be in perception, or to grasp at a sense object? best to you, layman Jeff 21833 From: Date: Thu May 1, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhanas To Ken H: In a message dated 5/1/03 12:05:06 AM, kenhowardau@y... writes: << Doesn't jhana fall into much the same scenario? Moments before the Buddha proclaimed his teaching, masters of jhana were the pinnacle of religious and intellectual hierarchy. They could teach a way that led to countless aeons of bliss. ('immediately followed by rebirth in the worlds of woe, but let's not be too critical.) Then, suddenly, there was a totally different Path that led, not to TEMPORARY release, but to FINAL release from dukkha. So who needs jhana masters? >> %%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I find your assumption, while intriguing, not supported by my practice, attainment nor the canon: Potthapada Sutta, DN. 9-17 9-10. (One scrutinizes) the sense doors...Having reached the first jhana, (one) remains in it. Whatever sensations (that were there) disappear. At that time there is present a true but subtle perception of delight and happiness, born of detachment, and (one) becomes one(,) who is conscious of this delight and happiness. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass way. This is that training... 11. ...With the subsiding of thinking, by gaining inner tranquillity and unity of mind (consciousness), (one) reaches and remains in the second jhana, which is free from thinking, born of concentration, filled with delight and happiness. At (this) time there arises a true but subtle perception of delight and happiness born of concentration, and (one) becomes one(,) who is conscious of this delight and happiness. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass way. 12. ...Dwelling in equanimity, mindful and clearly aware, (one) experiences in (one's) body that pleasant feeling of which the Noble Ones say: "Happy dwells the (one) of equanimity and mindfulness," (thus one) reaches and remains in the third jhana...There arises at this time a true but subtle sense of equanimity and happiness. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass way. 13. ...With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance of previous joy and grief, one reaches and remains in the fourth jhana, a state beyond pleasure and pain, purified by equanimity and mindfulness...and there arises a true and subtle sense of neither happiness nor unhappiness, and (one) becomes one(,) who is conscious of this subtle sense of neither happiness nor unhappiness. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass way. 14. ...By passing entirely beyond bodily sensations, by the disappearance of all sense of resistance and by non-attraction to the (diverse perceptions), seeing that space is infinite, (one) reaches and remains in the sphere of Infinite Space. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass away. 15. ...By passing entirely beyond the Sphere of Infinite Space, seeing that consciousness is infinite (one) reaches and remains in the Sphere of Infinite Consciousness. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass away. 16. ...By passing entirely beyond the Sphere of Infinite Consciousness, seeing that there is no thing, one reaches and remains in the Sphere of No-Thingness. (One) becomes one who is conscious of this true but subtle perception of the Sphere of No-Thingness. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass away. 17. ...From the moment that one has gained this (self-awareness, one) proceeds from stage to stage till (one) reaches the limit of perception. (At this moment) it occurs: "Mental activity is worse for me, lack of mental activity is better...So, (one chooses to) neither think nor imagine. Then...(one) attains cessation. %%%%%%%%%% Ken H: So how can there be any question as to which way we should go? I think it's a matter of samvega (sense of urgency). Do we have the time to learn jhana? We could die tomorrow, who knows when we will have another opportunity to hear the Dhamma? %%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I believe the above quote from the Potthapada Sutta should be sufficient evidence to refute your assumption that one could even avoid developing jhana and hope to achieve enlightenment. I believe this Sutta makes it quite clear that jhana is simply "par for the course." If my good friend, there is a sense or urgency, would you not abandon all other activities and cultivate jhana now instead of waiting? %%%%%%%%%% Ken H: Had we the accumulations for jhana, our opportunity would be less tenuous. (I can't quote any sources for this, by the way.) In our preliminary practice, we would have developed, for example, the ability to remember past lives. So we would have the luxury of time. In such a case, it would be quite appropriate that we emulate the Buddha more closely and that we develop psychic powers. In so doing, we could both pay more respect and be better able to pass on the teaching. %%%%%%%%%% Jeff: With the exception of advocating the development of "psychic powers," which I think are whole unnecessary, I would disagree with you here. The Buddha's discourse on Dependent Origination, made it quite clear that resolving one's "past lifetime linking" was an essential aspect of the path of purification. Also, there is not much time involved in remembering a life time anyway. One can recall the whole of a life time in an instant, so where is the time "lost." And, besides what is the big hurry? Do you have to attain enlightenment before the light turns green? I don't believe there is a "rush hour" on the path to freedom. %%%%%%%%%% Ken H: I think it's safe to say that you and I are not such highly developed beings -- but are any of us? If, twenty-six centuries ago, a person had the accumulations for jhana, wouldn't he/she have followed the Eight-fold Path to Parinibana by now? (The obvious exception would be a Bodhisattha, of course.) Since that time, would anyone have *acquired* accumulations for jhana? -- in preference to developing vipassana? I don't see why. So I wonder, today, in this human realm, is the real jhana taught or practised by anyone?(!) %%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Quite the contrary my good friend. If you log onto the Jhana Support Group you will find there are plenty of people who experience jhana. In fact in my town we have a sangha dedicated to jhana, and I have several students, all of whom experience jhana. I am a mere layman, with little formal instruction, but I experience jhana all of the time. In my experience anyone can experience jhana, even me. It just requires some training, practice and a little discipline. No more than your vipassana practice. blessings to you, layman Jeff 21834 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 1, 2003 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 6, no 2. Dear smallchap, I looked at Theri-theragatha at different places, the English, but not about a week. I think if he was dying it was not the right occasion to take ordination, even if his deathbed was for a whole week. Think of the ceremony, the questions you have to answer, the bowl and robe, etc. In the Theri-theragatha op 01-05-2003 16:30 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > I discussed it with my teacher some years ago. He said it could be > due to Suddhodana's extra-ordinary accumulation (Parami) but it was > not conclusive. the Theri-theragatha reminds me of what you said to Jon: Many examples here. Something happens in your life, like a fall, or sickness, and this reminds you of reality right there and then. There can be awareness and understanding of pain as nama, thinking or aversion as nama, and hardness of the body as rupa. I do not believe you have to concentrate on realities, it is understanding that counts, but understanding is accompanied by concentration without *us* having to try to concentrate. In order to be able to be aware and understand nama and rupa one needs to have already foundation knowledge, pariyatti, otherwise there are no conditions for patipatti and pativedha. Nina. 21835 From: Date: Thu May 1, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas To Sukin, and Howard: In a message dated 5/1/03 9:33:08 AM, sukin@k... writes: << Sukin: If you think that "Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool", then I can understand why you would make this conclusion. But we will have to establish "what is jhana" in the first place. So now I will have to invite other members to join in!!>> %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I don't have a problem with "Jhana is about making the mind a fit tool." It is, after all an aspect of the transformational process that is the path of purification. %%%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: But if my understanding of jhana is correct, then I see equal danger in the life of luxury and comfort, ie, if he clings to it. I think a serious jhana practtioner must have resolved to relinquish all attachment to pleasure as well as pain. %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I agree with you Sukin, the path of jhana is precisely the relinquishment of attachment or grasping and aversion. It isn't so much about the actually renunciation of material possetions, it is renunciation of the attachment to them. %%%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: It is for similar reason, I feel, that someone in those times would choose to ordained (leaving out exceptions). Only in this case it would be taking refuge in the Triple Gem primarily. Becoming a bhikkhu was not to practice jhana, but whatever it takes to reach vipassana. And jhana is not *the* practice for reaching vipassana, but satipatthana is. But all kusala supports one's development, and jhana is the highest kind of kusala with the exception of vipassana. So monks who had accumulations for jhana, practiced it, *why fight it*, besides one cannot be expected to have satipatthana all he time. But on the other hand, those who didn't have the accumulations, did not have to, they could practice bare-insight. And *why fight these accumulations* and make an attempt to practice jhana? %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I guess I would only add a reminder that you are probably not talking about the Vipassana meditation technique, but vipassana (insight). %%%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: Only that they have at most seven lives to live, and falling away from it is out of the question. It is an imposibility, no more kilesas that would make them puthujanas again. %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: When you have jhana my friends, who cares how many lifetimes one has? Because its all bliss then. %%%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: I hope my explanation above helps to make my position clearer. When the Buddha asked his Bhikkhus to practice jhana, it was because that was natural to them. But since it does not have anything directly to do with the development of the path itself, it wouldn't constitute silabattaparamasa. But if you do make a connection between jhana and the ultimate goal of enlightenment, saying that jhana is indispensable, then it is silabattaparamasa. And if you insist that a sotapana must practice it, then it is a contradiction. %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Well, I could be wring my friends, but it has been my experience that jhana was just "par for the course." It is simply what one passes through on the way to nibbana. Why worry any, it's bliss after all? %%%%%%%%%%%% Richard: I would think that when the Buddha asked bhikkhus to practice jhana, it was not because that was natural to them. Rather, I would think it is because right concentration, like seven other factors in the Noble Eightfold Path, is necessary for reaching the goal of liberation. %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Precisely my good friend Richard. %%%%%%%%%%%% Richard: I would not say that jhana is not *the* practice for reaching vipassana. In fact, I see that concentration is necessary for reaching insight.* %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: But, I beg to dissagree here. I am quite certain that jhana (absorption), is a neccessary prerequisite for vipassana (insight). Please note I am not speaking here of the meditation practice that goes by the same name. %%%%%%%%%%%% Richard: "The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply." %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I find there maybe a possibly translation problem here. The word, 'Concentration,' stands for in this sutta, I believe, maybe the sanskrit word 'samadhi.' I have seen in the Pali dictionary that it is translated as 'concentration,' but in Sanskrit I believe the word means 'absorption.' I am not sure if in the historic Buddha's day 'samadhi' meant 'concentration' or 'absorption,' but since it has been my experience that insight only arises in me when I am in absorption, then I am inclined to lean toward the usage as I am specifying it. 21836 From: Date: Thu May 1, 2003 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mana and other akusala To Ken H: In a message dated 4/30/03 1:29:12 AM, kenhowardau@y... writes: << Certainly, even an arahant has to think of himself conceptually from time to time -- as RobK says; how else could he cross the street? But I'm getting the impression from Nina's thread, "Dhamma Issues 6," that an arahant conceptualises himself as being a monk and that is kusala (or kirya, in his case). Could it be that, to conceptualise himself in any other way -- as he would have to do if he wasn't ordained -- would be akusala and therefore beyond him? Am I on the right track or am I rambling?>> %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: While of course the arahant needs 7 sense awareness or he or she will not function properly on the physical plane, there is no need to conceptualize anything. The arahant can remain in emptiness while driving a car if necessary. Using the brain for its memory and calculation abilities is of course useful when, let's say, balancing the check book. But the brain is nothing more than a pocket calculator. The arahant just is not enthralled with his/her 'pocket calculator' anymore. When it is no longer needed, he or she knows where the 'off' button is. best to you, layman Jeff 21837 From: Date: Thu May 1, 2003 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas To Howard and Robert: In a message dated 5/1/03 3:44:58 PM, upasaka@a... writes: << Howard: Thank you for the details, Robert. No doubt one can cling to practically any conditioned dhamma, including the jhanas. Such clinging is, of course, akusala and counterproductive. >> %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Not really my good friends Howard and Robert. If there is clinging there is no jhana. If you recall, jhana is "a true but subtle perception of delight and happiness, born of detachment" (Potthapada Sutta, DN. 9-17). %%%%%%%%%%%% Howard: From my reading, the Buddha encouraged his Bhikkhus repeatedly to practice the jhanas, and this applied even to mere stream enterers and to worldlings; so we are talking about the mundane jhanas. The Majjhima Nikaya is *filled* with exhortations in that direction. Moreover, it is clear from a couple suttas that the Buddha used the base of the 4th jhana for his final liberation, and Sariputta, as recorded in the Anapada Sutta, used all 8 jhanas as a means to complete liberation. Certainly the Buddha didn't encourage his monks to "add to the wall of samsara". %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Well said my good friend Howard. Best to you, layman Jeff 21838 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 1, 2003 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 6, no 2. Dear Smallchap (& Nina), --- smallchap wrote: > > I discussed it with my teacher some years ago. He said it could be > due to Suddhodana's extra-ordinary accumulation (Parami) but it was > not conclusive. .... > I read it from Narada Thera's "The Buddha and His Teaching" ch. 8 (he > wrote "A Manual of Abhidhamma") but unfortunately no reference was > given. The Pali Proper Names points to Therigatha Commentery 141. > You may want to check it out. I have no access to it neither can I > read Pali. .... It's very interesting re King Suddhodana. I checked the same detail in Narada's book and as you say, no reference for the comment. I also checked Therigatha Comy in Mrs Rhys Davids transl (PTS). but 141 seems to be about Uttara with no mention of K.Suddhodana. I also followed the refs at the back for Suddhodana, but found nothing here on his death. I notice at the beginning of the text it says "with selections from the Chronicle in Dhammapala's Commentary entitled Paramattha-Dipani". Maybe someone can check the Pali as this may not be complete or the numbering may be different. Interesting! Metta, Sarah ====== 21839 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 1, 2003 11:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intro to Buddhism Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > Hi, Sarah ~ > Sarah: A further Q to you or anyone: The Buddha was omniscient, so what > is the > significance of Brahma saying what he would have known anyway? > > Connie: I don't know, but it's nice to be able to say 'God' did that for > us and by implication, thinks 'practicing Buddhism' is the best way to > honour him. ..... After I wrote, I remembered reading that 'A great Brahma's request for the teaching of Dhamma' is one of the 30 regulations for all Buddhas. In other words, there must be the request as condition for the teaching. These 'regulations' for all Buddhas are very interesting. I'll type them out when I have time (from Comy to Buddhavamsa) .... > How many times did Brahma have to say 'please teach'? In some of the > Mahayana sutras, it is a big deal if Buddha starts to teach without > being asked anything. There are also times when he has to be asked > repeatedly, but for Pali Canon, now I can only think of when the dog (?) > ascetic has to ask three times where those kinds of practices lead > before Buddha answers. So maybe part of Brahma asking him is because of > our resistance to really wanting to assimilate the truth? > > We are reminded that the highest gift (and responsibility?) is truth? > Or that the biggest miracle involves teaching/learning rather than > things like omniscience? > > Ok, there's my 3 guesses. ..... Thanks. I don't really know the significance. > ..... > Connie: And didn't Ananda, who listened to everything and obviously > still missed the point (being wrapped up in his own thoughts?) also have > three chances? Another reminder that we have to rely on ourselves... > that if a Buddha was always around we might be even more complacent. ..... ;-) Conditions are very complex. We have the idea that if we had had the good fortune to have met the Buddha, we wouldn't be around now, but who knows? Maybe we're listening now because we had that good fortune. ..... > And what was the point of him saying he would lay it all down in three > months? ..... Sorry, I'm lost on this reference. You'd need to say more for me. Metta, Sarah ====== 21840 From: Sarah Date: Fri May 2, 2003 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mana and other akusala Hi Ken H (& Sukin, Smallchap & Yasa), --- kenhowardau wrote: > Thanks. As you, [and also Sarah and Nina], have been > saying lately, we should find out what the Abhidhamma has > to say. Otherwise, we might be headed down a blind alley. > Sarah has already joined in on this thread, so I look > forward to her further comment/exposition. ..... Was this on restraint in eating? I think we can only say ‘it depends’ and only panna can know the citta at any given moment. I’m thinking of the posts on ‘Sacca parmami’ and really being truthful to know what the reality is and the meaning of caga (relinquishment), including relinquishment of attachment to sense pleasures including visible objects and sounds at this moment. Most the day I find is spent in one way or other pursuing and gratifying the different senses without any detachment. This is the reason why, like you, I think it’s highly questionable whether the attainment of jhanas is possible for anyone today, unlike in the Buddha’s time when already there were high degrees of such ‘guarding’ of the sense doors, detachment and truth. Btw, I thought Smallchap gave a couple of useful quotes with examples of kusala (wholesome) reflections involving ‘oneself’. Again, I think it just depends on the citta. We may reflect on the shortness of our lives or how as we don’t wish to die, nor do others and it may all be with wrong view, lobha or dosa. In the case of the weaver’s daughter in the Dhp Comy, after reflecting on death and so on, she became a sotapanna, so there must have been direct comprehension of realities as not self. ..... > --------------- > When you've solved the question of mana, I'll seek your > impressions on macchariya (stinginess). At a recent > meeting, Andrew told us that macchariya included > 'stinginess with the Dhamma.' (!!!!) > > I have to wonder if my usual reluctance to contribute to > dsg discussions doesn't amount to macchariya. Even > poorly thought-out contributions are of value -- when > they lead to helpful, kusala, corrections. Am I > begrudging people this benefit on the basis, "I would > have thought of that if I'd taken more time!" :-) ..... ;-) I’ll wait for Sukin’s comments on this and Rob’s and Jon’s on the other points perhaps. Sukin is certainly the right person to talk about generosity and to encourage us all. Yasa, thank you also for clearly adding the details about mana in your helpful post. Metta, Sarah ====== 21841 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri May 2, 2003 2:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi Victor, > Sukin, could you explain what "silabattaparamasa" means? I tried to > look it up but couldn't find it in the online Pali-English > dictionary. Your explanation is appreciated. I think others have already done this. That saves me from the risk of embarrassing myself. ;-) > I would not say that jhana is not *the* practice for reaching > vipassana. In fact, I see that concentration is necessary for > reaching insight.* After reading Lee Dillion's post, I feel that there is some basis for your statement, though not exactly. I had always thought that the benefit of jhana was the high level of concentration and that the hindrances were suppressed, such that the jhanic consciousness itself was a good time to understand the characteristic of realities. What I did not know, was that the concentration could somehow be maintained outside the jhanic consciousness, so that this concentration could then be used to penetrate the subsequent realities arisen. So frankly, I am a bit confused. In this case then Howard is right in saying that jhana is a 'tool'. But I would still say first of all, that it is not necessary, nor that it should be developed for this particular purpose. The context in which you speak about concentration as a necessary factor, is not as I understand it. You seem to imply that it is developed separately as an individual factor, but I think that on it's own concentration practice does not have anything to do with the development of insight. In fact I think it can go more wrong than right, considering the necessity of panna every step of the way, which if overlooked will lead us into the wrong direction. And in this context, thinking that it is used as a tool is probably wrong. I would like you to consider this Victor. What is concentration used for? To penetrate realities? Is it to penetrate the Trilakkhana? Shouldn't one be more concerned about understanding what appears now? Isn't the detachment a sign of developing understanding? What does the three characteristics mean when one does not know that dhammas are arising now all the time and there is continual ignorance of it? My understanding is there cannot be final penetration into the Trilakkana if there is no development of satipatthana now. Separating nama from rupa, let alone seeing the three characteristics means nothing to me at this point, when I have not even experienced sound as sound, or seeing as seeing. Also if you don't mind the length of my post, I would like to say something more. When I first learnt about Buddhism, I was like most people, drawn into the argument that concentration was necessary for penetrating reality, in the sense that it required prior practice. This made sense to me. But later, after I discovered this group, I understood the importance of panna. That it was *this* that needed to be developed, not the other factors. After all the goal was *understanding*, and only panna knows and sees, sati, samadhi, viriya, etc. simply performed their individual functions to maintain the quality of citta, but it was panna which *understood*. Also since there is what is known as the miccha maga, then panna is all the more necessary every step of the way. I realize that we both agree on the importance of panna and the development of satipatthana, but I want to don't speculate as to why we still don't agree on the need to practice meditation!!? :-/ Maybe some answer will come up later.... Metta, Sukin. 21842 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri May 2, 2003 4:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mana and other akusala Hi Ken, > Thanks. As you, [and also Sarah and Nina], have been > saying lately, we should find out what the Abhidhamma has > to say. Otherwise, we might be headed down a blind alley. > Sarah has already joined in on this thread, so I look > forward to her further comment/exposition. I see that Sarah has responded, but I have yet to read her post. For me though, it is not just checking what the Abhidhamma says about this, I need wise friends such as you all to guide me. Reading the texts is one thing, understanding intellectually is another, being reminded about the correct application is yet another, which you have done and I am grateful for. Mike has written a most excellent reminder to me off-list, which I think he could have sent it here, but he thought that it might embarrass me (mind you he didn't say this ;-)), and probably he is right. But I would like to make it known that he or anyone else should not feel this way. Sometimes I do feel that Sarah and others are refraining from making comments about my post for the same reason. So please everyone, I realize that 'good medicine is always bitter', so don't hesitate from giving me good medicine. Also since ever I can remember, I am not good at taking hints, so please say it directly. :-) > there be any uprooting of kilesas without satipatthana > and vipassana? Can there be the correct course of action > without right view? > > ----------------- > > I don't know either. We are told that even jhana can > only suppress -- it can't eradicate. I suspect we have > seen the answers to this on dsg but I, at least, have not > fully absorbed them. For instance, RobK once wrote about > how the word 'kusala' was derived from 'kusa grass' -- > because it cuts both ways. He explained it twice for me > but I have forgotten; does it mean kusala kamma > eradicates akusala kamma in some way? ??!! I am not sure, but I feel that right view even if it is just on the intellectual level, can cause a decrease in akusala tendencies. But this does not guarantee permanent eradication, does it? > On another occasion, I was having a non-cyberspace > conversation with Sundara about the benefits of kusala. I > couldn't see what was so good about it if it wasn't > accompanied by right view. If it leads to continued > existence in samsara, what's the ultimate use of it? Jon > briefly commented, "Because, if it's not kusala, it's > akusala." :-) I think Jon is right. Maybe we do get overly critical and overlook what is happening right now and miss the point. I was also reminded from Mike's post, which I have thought before and probably this proves my point about realizing things on the thinking level only and not really learning anything from it, to distinguish between 'thinking about' satipatthana and actually applying it. I need him to give me more reminders that would show me this. > I'm sure I'm missing something but the impression I get > from this, is that without right view, we have only one > choice; the frying-pan or the fire. > > ------------- Lol, but maybe sometimes the frying pan can be at just the right temperature?! > When you've solved the question of mana, I'll seek your > impressions on macchariya (stinginess). At a recent > meeting, Andrew told us that macchariya included > 'stinginess with the Dhamma.' (!!!!) > I have to wonder if my usual reluctance to contribute to > dsg discussions doesn't amount to macchariya. Even > poorly thought-out contributions are of value -- when > they lead to helpful, kusala, corrections. Am I > begrudging people this benefit on the basis, "I would > have thought of that if I'd taken more time!" :-) Of course you have macchariya, your writings are so concise that I have a hard time getting the meaning, you should give longer explanations for dim-wits like me!! Just kidding. But seriously, since I wrote my original message, I am coming to see more and more the level of attachment to self. It is easy to notice it in others, but when it comes to one's own akusala, it is so hard to see. It is easy to say that it is conditioned and not-self when advising others, but this should be done with one's own mind states first. Again from above, I know how deeply rooted and of great range my own kilesas are. Thanks for your feedback, and sorry I can't help you with macchariya, right now I am occupied with money matters and quite worried about the possibility of loosing my main income, so at this point I wish I could be a little bit stingier in this direction at least!! :-) Best, Sukin 21843 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri May 2, 2003 5:10am Subject: Re: Jhanas Hi Sukin, Thanks for your reply! I understand that right concentration is hard to develop for many of us laypeople staying at home, enjoying various sensual pleasure. However, I would not think that the difficulty in developing concentration should be rationalized for discounting concentration as unnecessary in reaching the goal of liberation. I would not discount development of concentration as much as I would not discount development of insight. * Likewise, I would not discount concentration as a factor for Awakening as much as I would not discount mindfulness as a factor for Awakening.** What is concentration used for? Instead of saying that concentration is used for something, I would say that concentration as a factor for Awakening rightly taught by the Buddha, when developed and pursued, leads to direct knowledge, to self-Awakening, to Unbinding. *** Thanks again for the reply! Your comments are much appreciated!! Regards, Victor * 372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are found both meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/25.html ** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn46-014.html#7fac *** Ibid. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > Sukin, could you explain what "silabattaparamasa" means? I tried to > > look it up but couldn't find it in the online Pali-English > > dictionary. Your explanation is appreciated. > > I think others have already done this. That saves me from the risk of > embarrassing myself. ;-) > > > I would not say that jhana is not *the* practice for reaching > > vipassana. In fact, I see that concentration is necessary for > > reaching insight.* > > After reading Lee Dillion's post, I feel that there is some basis for your > statement, though not exactly. I had always thought that the benefit of > jhana was the high level of concentration and that the hindrances were > suppressed, such that the jhanic consciousness itself was a good time to > understand the characteristic of realities. What I did not know, was that > the concentration could somehow be maintained outside the jhanic > consciousness, so that this concentration could then be used to > penetrate the subsequent realities arisen. So frankly, I am a bit > confused. In this case then Howard is right in saying that jhana is a 'tool'. > > But I would still say first of all, that it is not necessary, nor that it should > be developed for this particular purpose. The context in which you speak > about concentration as a necessary factor, is not as I understand it. You > seem to imply that it is developed separately as an individual factor, but > I think that on it's own concentration practice does not have anything to > do with the development of insight. In fact I think it can go more wrong > than right, considering the necessity of panna every step of the way, > which if overlooked will lead us into the wrong direction. And in this > context, thinking that it is used as a tool is probably wrong. > > I would like you to consider this Victor. What is concentration used for? > To penetrate realities? Is it to penetrate the Trilakkhana? Shouldn't one > be more concerned about understanding what appears now? Isn't the > detachment a sign of developing understanding? What does the three > characteristics mean when one does not know that dhammas are arising > now all the time and there is continual ignorance of it? My understanding > is there cannot be final penetration into the Trilakkana if there is no > development of satipatthana now. Separating nama from rupa, let alone > seeing the three characteristics means nothing to me at this point, when > I have not even experienced sound as sound, or seeing as seeing. > > Also if you don't mind the length of my post, I would like to say > something more. > When I first learnt about Buddhism, I was like most people, drawn into > the argument that concentration was necessary for penetrating reality, > in the sense that it required prior practice. This made sense to me. But > later, after I discovered this group, I understood the importance of > panna. That it was *this* that needed to be developed, not the other > factors. After all the goal was *understanding*, and only panna knows > and sees, sati, samadhi, viriya, etc. simply performed their individual > functions to maintain the quality of citta, but it was panna which > *understood*. Also since there is what is known as the miccha maga, > then panna is all the more necessary every step of the way. > > I realize that we both agree on the importance of panna and the > development of satipatthana, but I want to don't speculate as to why we > still don't agree on the need to practice meditation!!? :-/ > > Maybe some answer will come up later.... > > Metta, > > Sukin. 21844 From: Sarah Date: Fri May 2, 2003 5:55am Subject: 'Regulation for all Buddhas but not shared by others' Dear Friends, Following comments in my other post: From Madhuratthavilaasini (PTS The Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning, PTS transl by I.B. Horner), Commentary to the Buddhavamsa (Chronicle of the Buddhas). Extract from the final chapter, ‘Differences Between the Buddhas’, p429: ***** “Now we will explain what is regulation for all Buddhas but not shared by others. What is regulation for Self-Awakened Ones is exactly thirty-fold. That is to say: 1) on descending into his mother’s womb the Bodhisatta is aware of its being his last existence; 2) the cross-legged position in the mother’s womb facing outwards; 3) the standing position of the Bodhisatta’s mother when she is giving birth; 4) issuing forth from the mother’s womb only in a forest; 5) the feet bing placed on a golden cloth, taking seven steps facing north, surveying the four quarters, roaring a lion’s roar; 6) the Great Departure of the Great Beings after they have seen the four signs and a son has been born; 7) taking up a banner of an arahant, having gone forth, (then) engaging in striving for (at least) seven days according to all the demarcations given above ; 8) on the day of reaching Self-Awakening the partaking of milk-rice; 9) arrival at omniscient knowledge while seated on a grass-spreading; 10) preparation for the meditational practice of in-breathing and out-breathing; 11) the shattering of Mara’s forces; 12) while still in the cross-legged position for Awakening, beginning with the three knowledges not shared (by others); 13) the spending of seven weeks close to the Tree of Awakening itself; 14) a Great Brahma’s request for the teaching of Dhamma; 15) the turning of the Wheel of Dhamma in a seers’ resort in a deer-sanctuary;" ***** to be contd Metta, Sarah ======= 21845 From: Sarah Date: Fri May 2, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Regulation for all Buddhas but not shared by others' (2) Dear Friends, Contd extract: ***** “16) on the full-moon day of Magha the recital of the Patimokkha in an assembly having the four factors; 17) regualar dwelling in a place in the Jetavana; 18) the performance of the Marvel of the Double at the gateway to the city of Savatthi; 19) the teaching of Abhidhamma in the abode of the Thirty-Three; 20) the descent from the deva-world at the gateway to the city of Sankassa; 21) constantly attaining the attainments of the fruits; 22) surveying people who could be guided out in two meditations; 23) laying down a rule of training when a matter had arisen; 24) telling a Jataka (-story) when a need had arisen; 25) speaking the Chronicle of Buddhas in a gathering of relations; 26) giving a friendly welcome to incoming monks; 27) spending the rains where invited and not leaving without asking for permission; 28) every day carrying out the duties for before a meal, for after a meal, for the first, middle, last watches (of the night); 29) partaking of the flavour of meat on the day of final nibbana 30) the final nibbana after having attained the twenty-four hundred thousand crores of attainments. ..... “These, thirty exactly, are regulation for all Buddhas. In respect of all Buddhas, no one is able to make a stumbling-block to the four requisites presented specially (to any one of them.) No one is able to make a stumbling-block to the life-span. Accordingly it is said: “It is impossible, it cannot come to pass that one should deprive a Tathagata of life by aggression”. No one is able to make a stumbling-block to the thirty-two Marks of a Great Man (or) to the eighty minor characteristics. No one is able to make a stmbling-block to the Buddha rays. These are called the four things not causing stumbling-blocks.” ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 21846 From: m. nease Date: Fri May 2, 2003 6:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi Robert, ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:53 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas > Mundane jhana is said to add to the > wall of samsara whereas supramundane jhana breaks the wall down. This is absolutely crucial, I think--even kusala kamma 'adds bricks' to the wall--continues the wheel of rebirth (even though 'happy' rebirth). Only vipassanaa ~naa.na 'removes bricks' and leads to the end of rebirth--as I understand it Our common goal, as Howard wrote, is (at least) stream entry--not happy rebirths! This in turn occurs only when right-understanding-of-the-eightfold-path arises WITH right-mindfulness-of-the-eightfold-path AND right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path WITH one of the 'abstinences'--right speech-, right action- OR right livelihood-of-the-eightfold-path AND right-effort-of-the-eightfold-path (simultaneously--NOT one following or dependent on others occurring previously). This is why it's essential, in my opinion, to recognize that, in this context, these 'factors-of-the-eightfold-path' refer to the ultimate sense (paramattha-sacca) of extremely rare and profound mental factors--not to the conventional sense (vohaara-sacca) of right conventional understanding, thought, speech, action and so on. And in this context, the factor of concentration might or might not be conditioned by prior jhaana-mastery. If anyone can untangle that terrible paragraph, I welcome corrections. Finally, the above is why, I think, the Buddha referred to kusala kamma in the Brahmajala Sutta as 'Minor Details of Mere Morality': "It is in respect only of trifling things, of matters of little value, of mere morality, that an unconverted man, when praising the tathaagata, would speak..." Not to belittle kusala kamma--just to highlight the profound difference between mundane(?) and supramundane(?) kusala--the former leads to the continuation of rebirth, the latter leads to the end. Just the way it seems to me... Mike 21847 From: Date: Fri May 2, 2003 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi, Jeff - In a message dated 5/2/03 1:09:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, macdocaz1@a... writes: > %%%%%%%%%%%% > Jeff: > Not really my good friends Howard and Robert. If there is clinging there > is > no jhana. If you recall, jhana is "a true but subtle perception of delight > > and happiness, born of detachment" (Potthapada Sutta, DN. 9-17). > %%%%%%%%%%%% > ============================ I would hazard the guess that, though there is no attachment during jhanic experience, the average worldling who experiences the rapture and bliss of the first jhana or the awful majesty of the fifth jhana typically craves a repetition of such. That craving can easily grow to clinging. I don't see this danger as sufficient for avoiding jhana practice - far from it. But the danger is a reality. Only nibbana is a fully safe haven. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21848 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 2, 2003 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Conventional' and 'absolute' Victor You say: "To me, the five aggregates are a very broad classification of conditioned things/phenomena/situations. As I see it, this classification is a short hand that refers to whole range of, again, conditioned things/phenomena/situations." I agree that the five aggregates are a classification of all conditioned phenomena. But I am not sure about your follow-up proposition, namely, that 'this classification is a short hand that refers to whole range of, again, conditioned things/phenomena/situations'. This seems to suggest there are 'conditioned things' that are beyond the phenomena that are the five aggregates. However, that is not what the texts indicate, to my understanding. How are the five aggregates to be understood? I think the answer is found in the following passage (from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary'): "When all constituent parts are there, The designation 'cart' is used; Just so, where the five groups exist, Of 'living being' do we speak." (S. V. 10). I read this passage as saying: 'What we call a cart is in fact simply a combination of its constituent parts. Likewise, what we speak of as a person is in reality nothing more than the five groups.' Now, the statement I have just given, namely: 'What we speak of as a person is in reality nothing more than the five groups' is quite a different proposition from the statement: 'A person is (nothing more than) the five aggregates'. This latter statement gives a certain validity or existence to 'a person' which is not in accordance with the way things actually are. I think this is where you and I differ on this question of the five aggregates, Victor. As I read your later posts, you regard 'a computer' as a subset of the aggregate of form, and I suppose this is what you mean when you say (below), 'I understand the word "aggregate" as collection or set. The aggregate of form is a collection/set of certain phenomena.' With respect, I think your approach is not the same as what is said in the suttas. As I have tried to explain, I think that to say: 'A computer is a conditioned thing that falls within the aggregate of form' (your version) is quite a different thing to saying: 'What we take for computer is in reality nothing more than aspects of the aggregate of form' (as in the cart/living being passage). I hope I have made myself clear. Please say if not. My apologies if I have misread or misquoted you in any way. Looking forward to your comments. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for sharing your thoughts. To me, the five aggregates are a > very broard classification of conditioned > things/phenomena/situations. As I see it, this classification is a > short hand that refers to whole range of, again, conditioned > things/phenomena/situations. When stating the noble truth of > suffering, the Buddha started with specific phenomena/situations as > being dukkha, and ended with the statement "In short, the five > aggregates subject to clinging is dukkha." I understand the > word "aggregate" as collection or set. The aggregate of form is a > collection/set of certain phenomena. So is the aggregate of > feeling, > perception, fabrications, and consciousness. Instead of listing > each > and every things/phenomena/situations being dukkha, the Buddha > stated collectively that "In short, the five aggregates subject to > clinging are dukkha." > > That is how I see it: it is not much of the dichotomy of > conventional/absolute in the Buddha's teaching. The > statement "computer is impermanent" is as true as the statement > "form > is impermanent." However, the latter is much more general than the > former in the sense that computer is form but not everything that > is form is computer. I would not say that the distinction between > conventional and absolute is an essential aspect of the suttas. I > would say that this distinction is not part of the Buddha's > teaching. > > Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. > > Regards, > Victor 21849 From: Star Kid Date: Fri May 2, 2003 6:58am Subject: Thank you Dear everyone, Thanks for all your replys on war.They were alll very intersting.Here are some questions I have in my mind: -Do Buddhists ever protest because of religon? If they do what language do they do it in? -Why do they speak Thai in the temples if the religion started in India? -What does your first life depend on? -Does fortune telling have to do with Buddhism? -Would you say Sars is a punishment? About the teaching it is pretty true that Sars will go away in the summer because of the heat and come back in winter when it's cold. Metta, Hilary 21850 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 2, 2003 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Conventional' and 'absolute' Swee Boon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Victor & Jon, > > > I would not say that the distinction between conventional and > > absolute is an essential aspect of the suttas. I would say > > that this distinction is not part of the Buddha's teaching. > > Basically, I agree with this, but I would not venture so far as to > say that this is not part of the Buddha's teaching. > > I think that whether the teaching is conventional or ultimate, it > must cultivate the arousal of these seven perceptions. > > Seven Perceptions > > 10. "Seven further conditions leading to welfare I shall set forth, > bhikkhus. Listen and pay heed to what I shall say." > > "So be it, Lord." > > "The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not their decline, > bhikkhus, so long as they cultivate the perception of impermanence, > of egolessness, of (the body's) impurity, of (the body's) > wretchedness, > of relinquishment, of dispassion, and of cessation. So long, > bhikkhus, > as these seven conditions leading to welfare endure among the > bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus are known for it, their growth is to be > expected, not their decline. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon I'm afraid I've not been able to get your point here. The 7 perceptions are a set of factors (one set among many) that lead to the growth of the bhikkhus as an order. They are not to be equated with the factors necessary for the development of insight in an individual. Sorry if I have misunderstood you here. Perhaps you could spell out your thinking in a little more detail. Jon 21851 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 2, 2003 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as dukkha Yasalalaka --- yasalalaka wrote: ... > I looked with amusement at the several posts on Computer as Dukkha, > or computer as conditioned. I read them through curiosity… Victor , > and Jon think it is an unfruitful effort to contemplate on a > computer while KKT thinks there is some thing to it. I think this is the first time anyone has suggested that Victor and I share the same view on something! I wonder whether the thinking we share about the value of contemplation on a computer is Victor's view on the matter or mine ;-)) Jon 21852 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 2, 2003 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Mike --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > > Clinging to concepts is an aspect of wrong view. This particular > > kind of attachment is eradicated by the stream-winner. To my > > understanding, the stream winner still conceptualises, but does > so > > without wrong view, that is, without taking the concept for being > > something. > > This makes sense to me, but I can't put my finger on 'clinging to > concepts' as an aspect of wrong view. Bhikkhu Bodhi's guide to The > Unwholesome > Factors, p. 84 CMA has it as: "Di.t.thi here means seeing wrongly. > Its characteristic is unwise (unjustified) interpretation of > things. Its > function is to preassume [I like this bit--the 'a priori'--mn]. It > is manifested as a wrong interpretation or belief. Its proximate > cause is unwillingness to see the noble ones (ariya) and so on." > > Do you extrapolate 'clinging to concepts' from this, or is it from > a different source? > > Thanks, > > mike Thanks for raising this. The expression 'clinging to concepts' came from a post of Victor's, in which I took him to be using the expression to mean taking concepts as 'something real', hence, 'seeing wrongly' or 'wrong interpretation' in the passage you quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi. Clinging to a concept in the sense of, for example, having attachment to a person or to a beautiful object etc is not an aspect of wrong view. Apologies for any lack of precision in my previous post. Jon PS Apologies also to you and others for the delay in replying ton these posts. I haven't had much posting time lately. Fortunately, yesterday was a public holiday, or it might have been even longer. (Was also Sarah's birthday, her 50th, but with so few options available due to the SARS scare we ended up going to the beach for a swim followed by a Thai-food lunch at a local outdoor restaurant!). 21853 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri May 2, 2003 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Conventional' and 'absolute' Hi Jon, Thanks for the reply! I appreciate it. Regarding the statement "this classification is a short hand that refers to whole range of, again, conditioned things/phenomena/situations", I don't think it suggests what you said it seems to suggest. How are the five aggregates to be understood? I would refer to the discourse Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 Khandha Sutta Aggregates http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html for answer. I would not assume that "what we speak of as a person is in reality nothing more than the five groups." Thanks again for your reply! Your feedback is welcome! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > You say: > "To me, the five aggregates are a > very broad classification of conditioned > things/phenomena/situations. As I see it, this classification is a > short hand that refers to whole range of, again, conditioned > things/phenomena/situations." > > I agree that the five aggregates are a classification of all > conditioned phenomena. But I am not sure about your follow-up > proposition, namely, that 'this classification is a short hand that > refers to whole range of, again, conditioned > things/phenomena/situations'. This seems to suggest there are > 'conditioned things' that are beyond the phenomena that are the five > aggregates. However, that is not what the texts indicate, to my > understanding. > > How are the five aggregates to be understood? I think the answer is > found in the following passage (from Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist > Dictionary'): > > "When all constituent parts are there, > The designation 'cart' is used; > Just so, where the five groups exist, > Of 'living being' do we speak." > (S. V. 10). > > I read this passage as saying: > 'What we call a cart is in fact simply a combination of its > constituent parts. Likewise, what we speak of as a person is in > reality nothing more than the five groups.' > > Now, the statement I have just given, namely: > 'What we speak of as a person is in reality nothing more than the > five groups' > is quite a different proposition from the statement: > 'A person is (nothing more than) the five aggregates'. > This latter statement gives a certain validity or existence to 'a > person' which is not in accordance with the way things actually are. > > I think this is where you and I differ on this question of the five > aggregates, Victor. As I read your later posts, you regard 'a > computer' as a subset of the aggregate of form, and I suppose this is > what you mean when you say (below), 'I understand the word > "aggregate" as collection or set. The aggregate of form is a > collection/set of certain phenomena.' > > With respect, I think your approach is not the same as what is said > in the suttas. As I have tried to explain, I think that to say: > 'A computer is a conditioned thing that falls within the aggregate of > form' (your version) > is quite a different thing to saying: > 'What we take for computer is in reality nothing more than aspects of > the aggregate of form' (as in the cart/living being passage). > > I hope I have made myself clear. Please say if not. My apologies if > I have misread or misquoted you in any way. > > Looking forward to your comments. > > Jon 21854 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 2, 2003 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Howard Thanks for this post and your subsequent post explaining in greater detail what you mean by "conflat[ing] the internal 'tree' concepts and percepts with the alleged external "trees" which cannot be assumed to exist, and, in fact, are never directly observed". I think the best thing I can do is set out what I understand to be the 'orthodox' Theravadin position. Here is what I said in a recent post to Victor (just substitute 'tree' for 'computer' ;-)): - At moments of 'seeing a computer', the relevant conditioned phenomena would include seeing consciousness and visible object, many moments of processing the visible data experienced, and other moments of mental activity with various concepts as object. - Likewise at a moment of 'touching a computer', the relevant conditioned phenomena would include body consciousness and tangible object, many moments of processing the tangible data experienced, and other moments of mental activity with various concepts as object. - At the moment of 'knowing/recognising a computer as being impermanent', the relevant conditioned phenomena would include many moments of mental activity with various concepts (including 'computer' and 'impermanent') as object. I hope this clarifies. I don’t know if you still see any conflating in this. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Swee Boon, Victor, and Jon - ... > The 'tree' concepts are generalized mental constructs, built > and rebuilt from memories of many perceptions, and which arise from > time to time; > the 'tree' percepts are more particularized mental constructs that > arise from > time to time. They are fabricated, built by sankharic functions. It > seems to > me that you, Jon, and some others here, conflate the internal > 'tree' concepts > and percepts with the alleged external "trees" which cannot be > assumed to > exist, and, in fact, are never directly observed. All the actually > observed > internal phenomena I mentioned do, indeed, arise, and hence also > cease. Tree > concepts and percepts *do occur*, they are events that arise and > cease, and > the locus for them is the internal realm, not the presumed and > projected external world. This is my take on the matter. > > With metta, > Howard 21855 From: nidive Date: Fri May 2, 2003 8:32am Subject: Re: 'Conventional' and 'absolute' Jon, > The 7 perceptions are a set of factors (one set among many) that > lead to the growth of the bhikkhus as an order. They are not to > be equated with the factors necessary for the development of > insight in an individual. Seven Factors of Enlightenment [7] 9. "Seven further conditions leading to welfare I shall set forth, bhikkhus. Listen and pay heed to what I shall say." "So be it, Lord." "The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not their decline, bhikkhus, so long as they cultivate the seven factors of enlightenment, that is: mindfulness, investigation into phenomena, energy, bliss, tranquillity, concentration, and equanimity. So long, bhikkhus, as these seven conditions leading to welfare endure among the bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus are known for it, their growth is to be expected, not their decline. Seven Perceptions 10. "Seven further conditions leading to welfare I shall set forth, bhikkhus. Listen and pay heed to what I shall say." "So be it, Lord." "The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not their decline, bhikkhus, so long as they cultivate the perception of impermanence, of egolessness, of (the body's) impurity, of (the body's) wretchedness, of relinquishment, of dispassion, and of cessation. So long, bhikkhus, as these seven conditions leading to welfare endure among the bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus are known for it, their growth is to be expected, not their decline. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html Swee Boon 21856 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri May 2, 2003 8:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Kom Dear Kimmy, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 5:50 AM > To: dsg > Subject: [dsg] Kom > > > Dear Kom, > > Thanks for your letter and sorry for replying your > letter so late, it is because I have to study my > common test and I do not have enough time to reply. That's all right. You can reply whenever you like and have time. > > The SARS is very serious in the world, classes were > stopped since 29/3 and were being resume on tuesday, > since I am Secondary three student, I had > to go for school on that day, I think that it is not > fair to us because Form 1 and 2 do not need to resume > class. What do you think of this new disease, SARS? There are new diseases every once in a while, and some of them affect a lot of people. We can only do the best we can to avoid them. > > My elder brother, Alton, went to Japan on Monday, my > family is very worried about him, since he had to go > by airplane......and I miss him so much, he > went there for work and do not know when will he > back......Can you help me on this problem in a > Buddhist point of view? > Kimmy. This is a very tough but a common problem. We can't be with somebody we like all the time. You feel happy sometimes, right? Do you notice that the happy feeling doesn't last, not even for an entire day. If a feeling within us does not last, how can we expect anything outside of us to go on forever? Eventually, everybody parts with their friends and families, in some way or another. This is why it is so important to be kind, to have compassion, to be joyful of their good fortune whenever and however we can toward a person. You never know when you are going to see them last. I hope you do very well in your test, and write when you can. kom 21857 From: Date: Fri May 2, 2003 5:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas To Sukin and Victor: In a message dated 5/2/03 2:45:45 AM, sukin@k... writes: << I think that on it's own concentration practice does not have anything to do with the development of insight... When I first learnt about Buddhism, I was like most people, drawn into the argument that concentration was necessary for penetrating reality, in the sense that it required prior practice. This made sense to me. But later, after I discovered this group, I understood the importance of panna. That it was *this* that needed to be developed, not the other factors. After all the goal was *understanding*, and only panna knows and sees, sati, samadhi, viriya, etc. simply performed their individual functions to maintain the quality of citta, but it was panna which *understood*. Also since there is what is known as the miccha maga, then panna is all the more necessary every step of the way. I realize that we both agree on the importance of panna and the development of satipatthana, but I want to don't speculate as to why we still don't agree on the need to practice meditation!!? :-/ >> ++++++++++++++++ Victor: I understand that right concentration is hard to develop for many of us laypeople staying at home, enjoying various sensual pleasure. However, I would not think that the difficulty in developing concentration should be rationalized for discounting concentration as unnecessary in reaching the goal of liberation. I would not discount development of concentration as much as I would not discount development of insight. * Likewise, I would not discount concentration as a factor for Awakening as much as I would not discount mindfulness as a factor for Awakening.** What is concentration used for? Instead of saying that concentration is used for something, I would say that concentration as a factor for Awakening rightly taught by the Buddha, when developed and pursued, leads to direct knowledge, to self-Awakening, to Unbinding. *** Thanks again for the reply! Your comments are much appreciated!! Regards, Victor %%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Well said Victor. Hello my good friend Sukin, please excuse my stepping in here, but I find your assertion that "on it's own concentration practice does not have anything to do with the development of insight," seemed to beg for a little debate, and when you said "After all the goal was *understanding*," I had to say something. Perhaps I am just miss-reading here, but it seems like you are promoting an intellectual "understanding" of the dhamma as essential over insight. How can there be any "understanding" panna (wisdom) without insight? How can there be insight without absorption? How can there be absorption without concentration? It has been my experience, the necessary precondition for insight is equanimity and absorption, which are characterized by the mind coming to rest not by filling it up full of Buddhist nama rupa. In this condition, then one is most certainly likely to be able to penetrate through the illusory nature of the material world as impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory. The distinction I am making here is Buddhism as just the intellectual pursuit of acknowledging that the objective universe is impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory is only a trick of the mind. Although, it is a useful trick, because it leads to dispassion, which is less clinging, which leads to equanimity and absorption, which are characterized by the mind coming to rest, and from this necessary "precondition" insight then "emerges." But, insight doesn't arise without absorption, and absorption doesn't arise without concentration. Observing the worlds with a still, calm mind, from emptiness, is the condition we call vipassana (insight). Best regards, layman Jeff Weight Age Gender Female Male 21858 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2003 10:27am Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, no 4 Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, no 4 The Abhidhamma explains in detail all realities of our daily life, and therefore it is very meaningful that he taught in the Heaven of the Thirtythree Abhidhamma in alternation with satipatthåna. We read in the Commentary to the ³Middle Length Sayings² (III, 134, Baddhekaratta Sutta, Discourse on ³A Single Excellent Night²), that the Buddha, in the Heaven of Thirtythree, taught the Abhidhamma in alternation with the Baddhekaratta Sutta to the devas who could not penetrate the profound and detailed teaching of the Abhidhamma on rúpa and arúpa (nåma) that have the three characteristics (of dukkha, impermanence and non-self). We read in the ³Bhaddekaratta Sutta of Lomasakangiya² that the deva Candana approached the venerable Lomasakangiya and asked him whether he remembered the exposition and analysis of the Baddhekaratta Sutta. It appeared that both of them could not remember this, but Candana remembered the verse. He related that the Buddha had taught these when he dwellt in the Heaven of the Thirtythree. We read in the ³Bhaddekaratta Sutta², ³A Single Excellent Night²(Middle Length Sayings,131, translated by the Ven. Bhikkhus Nyanamoli and Bodhi): "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably. Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night - It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has had a single excellent night." When sati-sampajañña arises and it can directly understand seeing, feeling or clinging that appears now, we can understand the phrases: ³For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state.² The three parts of the Tipitaka, the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma are in conformity with each other. All three parts of the Tipitaka contain the Buddha¹s fundamental teaching of impermanence, dukkha and non-self, and they point the way to the elimination of defilements. In order to understand these teachings it is essential to know and be aware of the realities as they appear through the six doors. 21859 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2003 10:27am Subject: Perfections, Ch 9, Determination, no 4 Perfections, Ch 9, Determination, no 4 His parents could not cause him to change his mind, though they tried him for sixteen years with great tests and many smaller ones. They implored him to change his mind many times, saying, ³Prince Temiya, dear child, your parents know that you are not dumb, because your mouth, ears and legs are not like those of someone who is dumb, deaf and crippled. You are the son your parents were wishing for. Do not destroy us now, but deliver us from the blame of all the kings of Rose Apple Land². Though they entreated him in this way, the boy pretended not to hear them. Then the king summoned the fortune-tellers who said that the prince¹s feet etc, were not like those of someone who is crippled. They said, ³This boy is not crippled, dumb and deaf. But he is a person of ill-luck. If such a person would stay in your palace, three dangers are threatening: to your life, to your power and to the queen. But when he was born, we did not want to cause grief to you and therefore we said that the prince had all auspicious characteristics.² The king who was afraid of these dangers gave a command to put the boy in an impropitious chariot, take him out by the back gate and bury him in the charnel ground. When the Bodhisatta heard this he greatly rejoiced, and he thought, ³The wish I had for a long time will reach fulfilment.² When queen Candådeví knew that the king had given a command to bury the prince, she visited the king and asked him as a boon to give the kingdom to the prince. The king said, ²Your son is ill-luck, I cannot give him the kingdom.² Thereupon, the queen said, ³If you will not give it to him for his whole life, give it to him for seven years.² The king said, ³I cannot give it.² The queen said, ³Then give it to him for six years, for five, four, three, two, for one year. Give it to him for seven months, for six, five, four, three, two months, one month, for half a month, or even for seven days only.² The king then consented. Thereupon queen Candådeví had her son adorned and a proclamation was made in the city to the beat of the drum, with the announcement, ³This is the reign of prince Temiya². He was seated upon an elephant with a white umbrella held over his head, and he was triumphantly led around the city. When he had returned he was laid on his royal bed. Queen Candådeví implored him all night, ³O Temiya, I did not sleep for sixteen years, I have wept because of you, my child, so that my eyes have become swollen and my heart is pierced with sorrow. I know that you are not cripple, deaf and dumb, do not make me utterly destitute.² The queen implored the prince day after day for five days. Then on the sixth day the king summoned the charioteer Sunanda and said to him: ²Early tomorrow morning you have to take the boy in an unlucky chariot, and bury him in the charnel ground; then fill the whole well up with earth and return.² When the queen heard this, she said to her son: ²My child, the king of Kåsi has given orders that you are to be buried in the charnel ground tomorrow. Tomorrow you will die.² When the Bodhisatta heard this, he greatly rejoiced that his sixteen years of endeavour had almost come to an end. But his mother¹s heart was as it were cleft. 21860 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 83, Consciousness Dear Larry and others, This part is very important, because some people doubt whether akusala citta can be object of mindfulness and right understanding. It can and it should, otherwise we shall always take it for self and then it can never be eradicated. This shows that vipassana can and should be developed in daily life. Daily life is the test for our understanding. Nina. op 02-05-2003 00:54 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Saragam cittam = "The consciousness with lust." Karmically unwholesome > eight conscious states of the plane of existence of sense-experience. > These are together with greed in the sense of springing from it. 21861 From: connie Date: Fri May 2, 2003 0:42pm Subject: Re: Intro to Buddhism Hi, Sarah ~ ..... After I wrote, I remembered reading that 'A great Brahma's request for the teaching of Dhamma' is one of the 30 regulations for all Buddhas. In other words, there must be the request as condition for the teaching. These 'regulations' for all Buddhas are very interesting. I'll type them out when I have time (from Comy to Buddhavamsa) .... Thanks for those. > And what was the point of him saying he would lay it all down in three > months? ..... Sorry, I'm lost on this reference. You'd need to say more for me. ....... I'm probably confusing sutra and sutta quotes again, but Buddha predicted his time of death. I used to read Nichiren (where nam-myoho-renge kyo comes from, btw) a lot and before I started looking for some of the sutras he quoted/paraphrased, didn't realize there were different Buddhist canons or how much of what I thought or even still think of as Buddhism is Not. peace, connie 21862 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 2, 2003 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Conventional' and 'absolute' Swee Boon Thanks for these useful quotes from the texts. Again, I'm having difficulty getting your point. I'm afraid you'll have to spell out your comments if I'm to make a meaningful reply. I've gone back through the last few posts of this thread, but still can't 'get it'. Jon http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21517 (me to Victor) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21522 (Victor to me) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21524 (you to me and Victor) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21850 (me to you) --- nidive wrote: > Jon, > > > The 7 perceptions are a set of factors (one set among many) that > > lead to the growth of the bhikkhus as an order. They are not to > > be equated with the factors necessary for the development of > > insight in an individual. > > Seven Factors of Enlightenment [7] > > 9. "Seven further conditions leading to welfare I shall set forth, > bhikkhus. Listen and pay heed to what I shall say." > > "So be it, Lord." > > "The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not their decline, > bhikkhus, so long as they cultivate the seven factors of > enlightenment, that is: mindfulness, investigation into phenomena, > energy, bliss, tranquillity, concentration, and equanimity. So > long, > bhikkhus, as these seven conditions leading to welfare endure among > the bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus are known for it, their growth is to > be expected, not their decline. > > Seven Perceptions > > 10. "Seven further conditions leading to welfare I shall set forth, > bhikkhus. Listen and pay heed to what I shall say." > > "So be it, Lord." > > "The growth of the bhikkhus is to be expected, not their decline, > bhikkhus, so long as they cultivate the perception of impermanence, > of egolessness, of (the body's) impurity, of (the body's) > wretchedness, > of relinquishment, of dispassion, and of cessation. So long, > bhikkhus, > as these seven conditions leading to welfare endure among the > bhikkhus, and the bhikkhus are known for it, their growth is to be > expected, not their decline. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > > Swee Boon 21863 From: Date: Fri May 2, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 83, Consciousness Hi Nina, I agree akusala citta is definitely an object of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Indeed it is often the only kind of citta available for inspection. Just by seeing the impermanence of desire or conceit we can see that they are not self. Furthermore, nothing ever arises by itself. Whatever arises is part of a larger whole and that whole is without essence. So if desire arises we don't need to analyze desire into parts. Rather, we can see that desire is part of the larger whole of citta, cetasika, and object or the larger whole of the 5 khandhas. Because these parts arise dependently they all partake of the characteristic of anatta. I was just thinking today that we never get what we want because what we want is empty of essence and, really, there is no one here to get it. Larry 21864 From: smallchap Date: Fri May 2, 2003 8:37pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues 6, no 2. Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > the Theri-theragatha reminds me of what you said to Jon: > It has its place in developing insight. It should not be regarded as > something that will hinder insight. > > Many examples here. Something happens in your life, like a fall, or > sickness, and this reminds you of reality right there and then. There can be > awareness and understanding of pain as nama, thinking or aversion as nama, > and hardness of the body as rupa. I do not believe you have to concentrate > on realities, it is understanding that counts, but understanding is > accompanied by concentration without *us* having to try to concentrate. In > order to be able to be aware and understand nama and rupa one needs to have > already foundation knowledge, pariyatti, otherwise there are no conditions > for patipatti and pativedha. I believe that your said the above with all sincerity. Although I have much to say in return, I choose to remain silent, for I know it will be a futile effort, and for fear that I can be the source of much akusala (not referring to you). So I think we can come to an amicable disagreement. While experience can be subjective, I often make reference to this part of the Padhana Sutta. I know Mara has never take a liking on me. "Sensual desire is your first army, the second is called discontent, the third is hunger and thirst, the fourth craving, the fifth sluggishness and laziness, the sixth fear, the seventh indecision, and the eighth disparagement of others and stubbornness: gain, fame, honor, prestige wrongly acquired and whoever praises himself and despises others -- these, Namuci, are your armies, the Dark One's[3] striking forces. A lazy, cowardly person cannot overcome them, but by conquering them one gains bliss. Best regards, smallchap 21865 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri May 2, 2003 8:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi Jeff and Victor, Jeff, I hope you don't mind me putting off replying to your other posts, since I don't have much time at the moment and would like reply to this one first. In the process I can answer Victor too. > Victor: > I understand that right concentration is hard to develop for many of > > us laypeople staying at home, enjoying various sensual pleasure. > > However, I would not think that the difficulty in developing > > concentration should be rationalized for discounting concentration as > > unnecessary in reaching the goal of liberation. I would not discount > > development of concentration as much as I would not discount > > development of insight. * Likewise, I would not discount > > concentration as a factor for Awakening as much as I would not > > discount mindfulness as a factor for Awakening.** ============================================= Sukin: Victor, but my point is not because it is difficult, if I really saw the value I would have found a way to do it. As in my own case, when my second son was just less than 3 months old, I decided to go for my first Goenka retreat. I thought that this was more important at that time, than worrying about my wife being alone with two kids and a nanny. Five months later, while my wife was visiting her parents in India, I went for my second retreat in another part of that country. I planned at that time, to take at least one retreat a year, if not two. But just two months after my second retreat, while I was desperately looking around for dhamma friends to discuss and meditate with, I met RobK on the net. He introduced me to K. Sujin and dsg. Not long after that, I had to stop meditating, for reason other than difficulty. But I must admit at this point, that I had no accumulations for doing it anyway. More comments follow. ================================ Victor: > What is concentration used for? Instead of saying that concentration > > is used for something, I would say that concentration as a factor for > > Awakening rightly taught by the Buddha, when developed and pursued, > > leads to direct knowledge, to self-Awakening, to Unbinding. *** ======================================== Sukin: Yes, I didn't think that you would be viewing 'concentration' this way. What I had in mind was that you made a connection between concentration as a factor of the path, and developing a practice which you think would lead to the development of that factor. But I think there may be no connection between the two, but I am not sure. My understanding is that concentration arises with every citta, the problem is just that it fixes on the object according to ignorance or understanding. Such that if it is a concept, then the object would be that, and if it is a reality, the object would be that. And if it is the concentration of jhana which is being used, then in any case it would have to be developed under special conditions, which again requires that one have quite a high level of panna to assure that nothing goes wrong. If one didn't have the panna, then the concentration practice would surely result in wrong practice. Besides, the Buddha's teachings are so very hard to get right and what if one does not have the teachings at all to guide (in another lifetime), wouldn't one be risking taking these accumulated tendencies to be used in the wrong way?! On the other hand, the habit of satipatthana can only take one in the right direction, because it cannot be *used* in the wrong way. And right understanding resulting in detachment is accumulated, such that it can have a slight influence even if one does not have the teachings. Just speculating here though. ;-) But it does make sense, no? :- ) ...maybe not. ========================================== > Jeff: Perhaps I am just miss-reading here, but it seems like > you are promoting an intellectual "understanding" of the dhamma as essential over insight. > > How can there be any "understanding" panna (wisdom) without insight? How can > there be insight without absorption? How can there be absorption without concentration? ================================== Sukin: I am not promoting intellectual understanding per se, I see a big difference in this and the actual application, as Mike has just shown me. I do however believe that it must start with 'understanding' the teachings, which is reading or hearing the words of the Buddha and knowing what they mean. The application level is based on this initial level, which is the same panna cetasika being developed to higher levels. This then ultimately leads through repeated application over countless lives, to the realization level, which is still based on the same panna cetasika having being developed to this level. So where the need to particularly practice concentration! May I suggest one thing, and hope you don't mind it. The idea that 'concentration' might be used as a tool as you have suggested, to penetrate realities, *may* be connected with desire to achieve enlightenment in this very life. Isolating concentration from other factors seem attractive to this end, since by conventional thinking, it looks like that *this* can be developed within a set span of time, like 10, 20 or 30 years. Hope I have not been too presumptuous, and I hope you don't mind it. I am just trying to find the reason for such an attitude. :-) ================================ Jeff: > It has been my experience, the necessary precondition for insight is > equanimity and absorption, which are characterized by the mind coming to rest > not by filling it up full of Buddhist nama rupa. In this condition, then one > is most certainly likely to be able to penetrate through the illusory nature > of the material world as impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory. =================================== Sukin: Again there seem to be implying, prior practice of some kind, that one must first be in a state of mind ready for insight. But this is not how I understand the practice to be nor the process of insight. The experience is just like any other moment, just more deeper understanding of the very experience, and this can be following any state of mind, and can be followed by any state. Of course if it is enlightenment that you are talking about, then the citta must be supramundane. And Jeff, I think you do not quite understand the study of nama and rupa. One does understand the distinction between the labelling (though it seems so hard for me) and the actual experience. And you may be thinking that too much study results in too many words in the head or something, I would like to suggest that the use and accumulation of words and thinking is what we engage in anyway, whether we know it or not. And it would be better that we use the correct words and *understand* the process, than denying that there is *thinking* and the use of words all the time, and so be influenced by them unawares. Vitaka and vichara accompanies all cittas except the 10 sense consciousness I think. ============================================= Jeff: > The distinction I am making here is Buddhism as just the intellectual pursuit > of acknowledging that the objective universe is impermanent, not self and > unsatisfactory is only a trick of the mind. Although, it is a useful trick, > because it leads to dispassion, which is less clinging, which leads to > equanimity and absorption, which are characterized by the mind coming to > rest, and from this necessary "precondition" insight then "emerges." But, > insight doesn't arise without absorption, and absorption doesn't arise > without concentration. Observing the worlds with a still, calm mind, from > emptiness, is the condition we call vipassana (insight). ========================================== Sukin: My kids are calling for attention, I have to go. I will just end here with the reminder about "catching the snake by the wrong end". This I think means, undue reliance on intellectual knowledge and mistaking this to be an end in itself. But on the other hand, this does not mean that intellectual knowledge can be discarded. Intellectual knowledge has to stay to serve its purpose of conditioning the patipatti and up to the pativedha level, one does not choose to discard it. Only panna can make the distinction. On the other hand, if one prematurely sees a need not to rely on it, or even think about discarding it, or make a judgment against its value, then *that* wouldn't be the work of panna. Best wishes, Sukin. 21866 From: smallchap Date: Fri May 2, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues 6, no 2. Dear Nina, A clarification to my previous message, that I agree pariyatti has to come first, even if it is only a one-liner. smallchap --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "smallchap" wrote: > Dear Nina, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > > the Theri-theragatha reminds me of what you said to Jon: > > > It has its place in developing insight. It should not be regarded > as > > something that will hinder insight. > > > Many examples here. Something happens in your life, like a fall, or > > sickness, and this reminds you of reality right there and then. > There can be > > awareness and understanding of pain as nama, thinking or aversion > as nama, > > and hardness of the body as rupa. I do not believe you have to > concentrate > > on realities, it is understanding that counts, but understanding is > > accompanied by concentration without *us* having to try to > concentrate. In > > order to be able to be aware and understand nama and rupa one needs > to have > > already foundation knowledge, pariyatti, otherwise there are no > conditions > > for patipatti and pativedha. > > I believe that your said the above with all sincerity. Although I > have much to say in return, I choose to remain silent, for I know it > will be a futile effort, and for fear that I can be the source of > much akusala (not referring to you). So I think we can come to an > amicable disagreement. > > While experience can be subjective, I often make reference to this > part of the Padhana Sutta. I know Mara has never take a liking on me. > > "Sensual desire is your first army, the second is called discontent, > the third is hunger and thirst, the fourth craving, the fifth > sluggishness and laziness, the sixth fear, the seventh indecision, > and the eighth disparagement of others and stubbornness: gain, fame, > honor, prestige wrongly acquired and whoever praises himself and > despises others -- these, Namuci, are your armies, the Dark One's [3] > striking forces. A lazy, cowardly person cannot overcome them, but by > conquering them one gains bliss. > > > Best regards, > smallchap 21867 From: Date: Fri May 2, 2003 5:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas To Howard: In a message dated 5/2/03 6:56:27 AM, upasaka@a... writes: << I would hazard the guess that, though there is no attachment during jhanic experience, the average worldling who experiences the rapture and bliss of the first jhana or the awful majesty of the fifth jhana typically craves a repetition of such. That craving can easily grow to clinging. I don't see this danger as sufficient for avoiding jhana practice - far from it. But the danger is a reality. Only nibbana is a fully safe haven. With metta, Howard >> %%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Interesting point Howard, but one should not for get aversion is just the other side of jhana. What if jhana is the path to nibbana, then what? Here is a good Pali quote that my good friend Dhammarato Bhikkhu sent me. It reflects my own experience. Majjhima Nikaya 36.32 "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but it is not easy to achieve that pleasure with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge. Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food -- some rice & porridge -- they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.' Perhaps your are better than the Buddha, best to you, layman Jeff 21868 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri May 2, 2003 11:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hello Dhammarato Bhikkhu, Jeff, Howard, and All, Jeff - the passage identified for you by Dhammarato Bhikkhu from MN 36.32 has note [390] attached. It says: this verse "marks a change in the Bodhisatta's evaluation of pleasure; now it is no longer regarded as something to be feared and banished by the practice of austerities, but, when born of seclusion and detachment, is seen as a valuable accompaniment of the higher stages along the path to enlightenment." Majjhima 139.9 (The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha - trans. Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) discusses the twofold division of pleasure: "One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? "Bhikkhus, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure. What five? Forms cognizable by the eye ... sounds cognizable by the ear ... odours cognizable by the nose ... flavours cognizable by the tongue ... tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. Now the pleasure and joy that arise dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are called sensual pleasure - a filthy pleasure, a coarse pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should not be pursued, that it should not be developed, that it should not be cultivated, and that it should be feared. "Here, bhikkhus, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana ... the second jhana ... the third jhana ... the fourth jhana. This is called the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, and that it should not be feared. "So it was with reference to this that it was said: "One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself.' metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > To Howard: > > In a message dated 5/2/03 6:56:27 AM, upasaka@a... writes: > > << I would hazard the guess that, though there is no attachment during > jhanic experience, the average worldling who experiences the rapture and > bliss of the first jhana or the awful majesty of the fifth jhana typically > craves a repetition of such. That craving can easily grow to clinging. I > don't see this danger as sufficient for avoiding jhana practice - far from > it. But the danger is a reality. Only nibbana is a fully safe haven. > > With metta, > Howard >> > > %%%%%%%%%%%%% > Jeff: > Interesting point Howard, but one should not for get aversion is just the > other side of jhana. What if jhana is the path to nibbana, then what? Here > is a good Pali quote that my good friend Dhammarato Bhikkhu sent me. It > reflects my own experience. > > Majjhima Nikaya 36.32 > "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, > and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then -- > quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental > qualities I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on > that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' > I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to > do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' > I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing > to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental > qualities, but it is not easy to achieve that pleasure with a body > so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some > rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge. > Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our > contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But > when they saw me taking some solid food -- some rice & porridge -- > they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative > is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is > backsliding into abundance.' > > Perhaps your are better than the Buddha, > > best to you, > > layman Jeff 21869 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat May 3, 2003 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhanas Hello Jeff, It's a pleasure to talk with you. Considering your confident enthusiasm for meditation and your undoubted accomplishment in that area, I imagine it must be quite puzzling to see so many Dhamma students following a meditation-free path. You have been very patient with us. There *is* a meditation-free way of attaining the Eight- fold Path -- the way of Bare Insight Training. In fact, there are two such ways; if you count the way in which firstly, insight is developed to the stage of Path- consciousness, and only then, secondly, jhana is developed. I gather that you flatly reject these two paths. So I will not try to convince you -- there's no point in an, 'is, isn't, is, isn't,' style of conversation :-) You know far better than I do, that there are many, varied forms of mental training, several of which are claimed to be Buddhist. Rather than look to various, conflicting sources, I want to know only what the Buddha Gotama taught and I'm confining my search strictly to the ancient, Theravadin texts. Here at dsg, I have found people who know those texts intimately -- I have found my Shangrila :-) You wrote: ----------- > And, besides what is the big hurry? Do you have to attain enlightenment before the light turns green? I don't believe there is a "rush hour" on the path to freedom. > ------------ The way in which I am being taught a sense of urgency is, literally, like no other. In this way, one understands that there is no control over the arising or non-arising of mental states. They will arise when, and only when, the conditions for their arising are present. This is because all dhammas are anatta, without self. Understanding this, I am less likely to try to force any particular mental state (eg., a sense of urgency or mindfulness of a sense of urgency), to arise. Instead, I find myself looking up Samvega-vatthu in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. There's a lot more to it than I had remembered. Hopefully, a little more understanding has been acquired. (ie., a little more condition for the arising of samvega and other kusala states.) Far from trying to attain enlightenment before the light turns green, I am happy to know that the future does not exist -- that there are only the mental and physical phenomena (nama and rupa), of the present moment. Is there direct understanding (panna), of nama and rupa NOW? If not, why not; what dhammas ARE present? These are the things that interest me, not meditation. Kind regards, Ken H 21870 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 3, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as arising and falling away Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > Regarding the question 'Does a computer arise and fall away?', I > would say yes. It arises in the sense it comes to be through > fabrication, manufacturing. It falls away in the sense that it > breaks down, disintegrates, and it does not last. Thanks for giving an answer to my question (BTW, I see that a categorical answer was apparently not possible ;-)). I would regard what you describe here as a very conventional kind of arising and falling away. It is also, I suggest, an arising and falling away that can only be known by deduction, i.e., from observations made at different times or from previous experience regarding similar objects. In my understanding of the teachings, all conditioned phenomena are said to arise and fall away on a momentary basis, and this manifests in the impermanence of those conditioned phenomena. This impermanence is something that can be *directly experienced * as a *characteristic of the conditioned phenomena* in question. I see the 2 as different kinds of arising and falling away, and different kinds of 'knowing'. I don't know if you would agree with this? Jon 21871 From: Date: Sat May 3, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi, Jeff - In a message dated 5/3/03 1:56:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, macdocaz1@a... writes: > To Howard: > > In a message dated 5/2/03 6:56:27 AM, upasaka@a... writes: > > << I would hazard the guess that, though there is no attachment during > jhanic experience, the average worldling who experiences the rapture and > bliss of the first jhana or the awful majesty of the fifth jhana typically > craves a repetition of such. That craving can easily grow to clinging. I > don't see this danger as sufficient for avoiding jhana practice - far from > it. But the danger is a reality. Only nibbana is a fully safe haven. > > With metta, > Howard >> > > %%%%%%%%%%%%% > Jeff: > Interesting point Howard, but one should not for get aversion is just the > other side of jhana. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly don't suggest that aversion is called for! But caution and eyes-wide-open are always called for. ---------------------------------------------------- What if jhana is the path to nibbana, then what? Here > > is a good Pali quote that my good friend Dhammarato Bhikkhu sent me. It > reflects my own experience. > > Majjhima Nikaya 36.32 > "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, > and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then -- > quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental > qualities I entered &remained in the first jhana: rapture & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on > that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' > I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to > do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' > I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing > to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental > qualities, but it is not easy to achieve that pleasure with a body > so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some > rice &porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice &porridge. > Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our > contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But > when they saw me taking some solid food -- some rice &porridge -- > they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative > is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is > backsliding into abundance.' ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: One comment here, Jeff. Just as some Jews and Christians may search the scriptures and pick out portions to support a particular position they favor, this can be done with the huge tipitaka as well. The Buddha taught an eightfold path, not a one-fold path. Jhanas were practiced quite fully by the Buddha's teachers. It was not enough. For complete enlightenment jhana practice is necessary, but not sufficient. Had it been sufficient, the Indian countryside circa 2500 BCE would have been teeming with arahants! -------------------------------------------------------- > > Perhaps your are better than the Buddha, > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The point is exactly the opposite! We are not better than the Buddha. We are infinitely worse than the Buddha; and no conditioned dhamma, and no practice, is completely free of danger, not due to the dhamma or to the practice itself, but due to *us* and our defilements. (Oh - and one more point: When you write "Perhaps your are better than the Buddha," perhaps you are being unnecessarily sarcastic? Perhaps you might consider your intention in writing that way?) Look Jeff, I may be wrong about the jhanas. I could be wrong in several ways, some of which favor your position, and some of which go in the opposite direction. I don't *know* the facts, I only have an opinion for here and now. I may learn otherwise. I have only some small experience with jhanas, *way* less than you and Ven Dhammarato. On the other hand, I also have had some other "experiences" that have provided a bit of understanding to me, that have favorably changed my character, and that have provided much help in my life. Part of what I *do* know is that tenaciously clinging to a belief, and ruling out the possibility of error and of the willingness to come to see that matters *might* be other than they seem, is a defilement, a hard-to-release form of craving and attachment often also accompanied by aversion (to other understandings and to people who hold them) and by ignorance in the sense of the willful ignoring of other possibilities. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > best to you, > > layman Jeff > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21872 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 3, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma fundamentalism Swee Boon --- nidive wrote: > Hi, ... > I agree with yasalalaka too. > > Also, the mere insight into the four great elements as impermanent > and > not-self is not enough. One must also apply that insight to this > very body to obtain further insight. > > [5] "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, > having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into > pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, > however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body > there > is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & > the wind property.' > > "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of > itself, > or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This > is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html > > I think this is one of the mistakes that Abhidhamma fundamentalists > make, thinking that being aware of the present moment's dhamma is > sufficient for liberation. Correct me if I am wrong. ;-) > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Being no doubt one of those you mean here by 'Abhidhamma fundamentalists' I guess I should attempt a reply. You suggest that this passage from the Satipatthana Sutta shows that "mere insight into the four great elements as impermanent and not-self is not enough. One must also apply that insight to this very body to obtain further insight." I think the idea of taking insight and applying it to a particular situation is not something you will find stated in the suttas in so many words, and I would regard it as a subjective interpretation and therefore something to be checked against the commentaries. I think a more likely interpretation here would take account of the fact that our body is the object of our consciousness innumerable times a day, without having to 'make' it the object, but that generally it is not seen as it truly is but is taken for 'me' or 'mine'. If, however, there is more wholesome reflection on certain aspects of the body, this may lessen the tendency for body to be clung to so strongly as 'I', 'me' and 'mine' when it is the object of consciousness naturally in the course of a day. To my understanding, satipatthana is always about the presently arising dhammas. I do not read the suttas as requiring us to think in terms of specially choosing an object (e.g. one's body) for 'study' or 'mindfulness practice'. Especially an object that occurs naturally as object of consciousness so much of the time already! You say the idea that "being aware of the present moment's dhamma is sufficient for liberation" is a mistake, but I believe it's also true to say that the only dhamma there can ever be awareness of is the present moment's dhamma, i.e., not some other 'more ideal' dhamma-as-object. Jon 21873 From: Lee Dillion Date: Sat May 3, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas upasaka@a... wrote: > Look Jeff, I may be wrong about the jhanas. I could be wrong in > several ways, some of which favor your position, and some of which go > in the opposite direction. I don't *know* the facts, I only have an > opinion for here and now. I may learn otherwise. I have only some > small experience with jhanas, *way* less than you and Ven Dhammarato. > On the other hand, I also have had some other "experiences" that have > provided a bit of understanding to me, that have favorably changed my > character, and that have provided much help in my life. Part of what > I *do* know is that tenaciously clinging to a belief, and ruling out > the possibility of error and of the willingness to come to see that > matters *might* be other than they seem, is a defilement, a > hard-to-release form of craving and attachment often also accompanied > by aversion (to other understandings and to people who hold them) and > by ignorance in the sense of the willful ignoring of other > possibilities. Hi Howard: You have such a nice way with words - you have made a point that guides me in my practice - to remain open, without a footing in dogmatic claims, and ready to work with the arisings and cessations of the world. -- Lee 21874 From: Lee Dillion Date: Sat May 3, 2003 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Lee Dillion wrote: > Hi Howard: > > You have such a nice way with words - you have made a point that guides > me in my practice - to remain open, without a footing in dogmatic > claims, and ready to work with the arisings and cessations of the world. Sorry for the self follow, but I meant to include the following: 'Those who teach a doctrine other than this are lacking in purity, imperfect.' That's what the many sectarians say, for they're smitten with passion for their own views. 'Only here is there purity,' that's what they say. 'In no other doctrine is purity,' they say. That's how the many sectarians are entrenched, speaking firmly there concerning their own path. Speaking firmly concerning your own path, what opponent here would you take as a fool? You'd simply bring quarrels on yourself if you said your opponent's a fool with an impure doctrine. Taking a stance on your decisions, & yourself as your measure, you dispute further down into the world. But one who's abandoned all decisions creates in the world quarrels no more. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-12.html -- Lee 21875 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 3, 2003 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, Swee Boon and all, > > Pardon me for jumping in. > > Jon, I would think that you had hit the point with the following: > > > Concepts are simply assembled ('created') by the mind from already > experienced sense-door impressions (with the help of the > recollection > of previously assembled concepts). > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21179 > > I would say that what is assembled is impermanent. > > This is how I see it: > Clinging to concept leads to dukkha. Seeing concept thus: "This > is impermanent. This is dukkha. This is not mine. This I am not. > This is not my self." one grows dispassionate toward concept. > > Your feedback is appreciated. > > Regards, > Victor I don't believe the teachings talk about the need to see concept as impermanent. On the other hand, there are a lot of references to the need to see clinging as impermanent. At the moment of clinging to concept, there is certainly the characteristic of impermanence to be seen in the clinging, for one whose panna is sufficiently highly developed. Jon PS If replying, would you mind saying something about what you mean by 'clinging to concept', so that we aren't talking at cross-purposes. Thanks. 21876 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat May 3, 2003 7:15am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma fundamentalism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Swee Boon > > --- nidive wrote: > Hi, > ... > > I agree with yasalalaka too. > > > > Also, the mere insight into the four great elements as impermanent > > and > > not-self is not enough. One must also apply that insight to this > > very body to obtain further insight. > > > > [5] "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, > > having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into > > pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, > > however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body > > there > > is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & > > the wind property.' > > > > "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of > > itself, > > or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This > > is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html > > > > I think this is one of the mistakes that Abhidhamma fundamentalists > > make, thinking that being aware of the present moment's dhamma is > > sufficient for liberation. Correct me if I am wrong. ;-) > > > > Regards, > > NEO Swee Boon > > Being no doubt one of those you mean here by 'Abhidhamma > fundamentalists' I guess I should attempt a reply. > > You suggest that this passage from the Satipatthana Sutta shows that > "mere insight into the four great elements as impermanent and > not-self is not enough. One must also apply that insight to this very > body to obtain further insight." > > I think the idea of taking insight and applying it to a particular > situation is not something you will find stated in the suttas in so > many words, and I would regard it as a subjective interpretation and > therefore something to be checked against the commentaries. > > I think a more likely interpretation here would take account of the > fact that our body is the object of our consciousness innumerable > times a day, without having to 'make' it the object, but that > generally it is not seen as it truly is but is taken for 'me' or > 'mine'. If, however, there is more wholesome reflection on certain > aspects of the body, this may lessen the tendency for body to be > clung to so strongly as 'I', 'me' and 'mine' when it is the object of > consciousness naturally in the course of a day. > > To my understanding, satipatthana is always about the presently > arising dhammas. I do not read the suttas as requiring us to think > in terms of specially choosing an object (e.g. one's body) for > 'study' or 'mindfulness practice'. Especially an object that occurs > naturally as object of consciousness so much of the time already! > > You say the idea that "being aware of the present moment's dhamma is > sufficient for liberation" is a mistake, but I believe it's also true > to say that the only dhamma there can ever be awareness of is the > present moment's dhamma, i.e., not some other 'more ideal' > dhamma-as-object. > > Jon ______________________________________________________________________ _ Jon Buddha never even attempted to teach the Abbhidhamma to his disciples, it was only Ven Sariputtha, who was by fulfilment of parami had kusala accumulations had a highly developed mind to understand and receive Abhidhamma from the Buddha. For the disciples of the Buddha, the Bikkhus, there were the Dhammachakkha pavattana Sutta, Anatta Lakkhana Sutta, Anapanasati Sutta, Maha Satipattahana Sutta, Malunkyaputta Sutta, Chulagosangha Sutta, Mahanidana Sutta, Samannapahala Sutta and many others giving ample instructions for Meditation. In the Sutta pitaka, it is well seen that Buddha has included the essentials of the Abhidhamma for his disciples to follow the path, through sila, samadhi and panna, to attain the goal of Nibbana. If someone says that meditation is not necessary to attain nibbana, he is getting far away from the Buddha's teachings. The eightfold- path, is divided into three groups, the sila, samadhi and panna. It has to be followed together , you cannot skip sila and do samadhi and panna, nor do sila and skip samadhi to arrive at panna. It has to be followed in that order, as a whole. I have seen some say, that one could start from panna , that is like putting the cart before the horse. All of Buddha's teachings connects up to one whole Dhamma. Each has its importance , Abhidhamma could be used as a corollary to meditation. It may help to understand the paramatta dhamma in relation to insight meditation. But Abhidhamma will be understood through successful meditation practice, without a special attempt to do so !! But I find that it is invaluable to understand, Buddha's teaching in intellectualy, or scientifically , without making it the essential dhamma for those who seek freedom from the bonds of Samsara. With metta, Yasa 21877 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sat May 3, 2003 7:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Computer as arising and falling away Dear Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > Regarding the question 'Does a computer arise and fall away?', I > would say yes. It arises in the sense it comes to be through > fabrication, manufacturing. It falls away in the sense that it > breaks down, disintegrates, and it does not last. Thanks for giving an answer to my question (BTW, I see that a categorical answer was apparently not possible ;-)). I would regard what you describe here as a very conventional kind of arising and falling away. It is also, I suggest, an arising and falling away that can only be known by deduction, i.e., from observations made at different times or from previous experience regarding similar objects. In my understanding of the teachings, all conditioned phenomena are said to arise and fall away on a momentary basis, and this manifests in the impermanence of those conditioned phenomena. This impermanence is something that can be *directly experienced * as a *characteristic of the conditioned phenomena* in question. I see the 2 as different kinds of arising and falling away, and different kinds of 'knowing'. I don't know if you would agree with this? Jon KKT: You make a very clear distinction in the understanding of the arising and falling away of a 'conventional' thing and a paramattha dhamma. The arising and falling away of the former could only be known by deduction while the latter by direct experience. But I am sure that most people on this list even while talking about the arising and falling away of the paramattha dhammas have only an 'intellectual' understanding and do not directly experience it. Therefore it is not different from the understanding of someone in the case of a 'conventional' object. Do you think that by accumulating such 'intellectual' understandings you arrive some day at a direct experience of paramattha dhammas ? Metta, KKT 21878 From: m. nease Date: Sat May 3, 2003 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Jon (and Sarah and Victor), First, Happy 50th, Sarah! And a happy end to rebirths. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's guide to The > > Unwholesome > > Factors, p. 84 CMA has it as: "Di.t.thi here means seeing wrongly. > > Its characteristic is unwise (unjustified) interpretation of > > things. Its > > function is to preassume [I like this bit--the 'a priori'--mn]. It > > is manifested as a wrong interpretation or belief. Its proximate > > cause is unwillingness to see the noble ones (ariya) and so on." > > > > Do you extrapolate 'clinging to concepts' from this, or is it from > > a different source? > > mike > > Thanks for raising this. > > The expression 'clinging to concepts' came from a post of Victor's, > in which I took him to be using the expression to mean taking > concepts as 'something real', hence, 'seeing wrongly' or 'wrong > interpretation' in the passage you quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi. > > Clinging to a concept in the sense of, for example, having attachment > to a person or to a beautiful object etc is not an aspect of wrong > view. > > Apologies for any lack of precision in my previous post. Not at all, Jon, and thanks for the clarification. This reminds me of a couple of something related: In your discussion with Victor, Victor posted the link to the Khanda Sutta. It's divided into two parts--the first, the aggregates (khandas) and second, the clinging aggregates (upaadaanakhandas?). The distinction between the two is that each clinging aggregate "is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation [aasava, if my Pali is correct]". I take the definition of aasava in this context to be "ideas which intoxicate the mind". In CMA, Compendium of the Unwholesome, Taints (Aasavaa) (p. 75), the third aasava is di.t.thaasavo, or the taint (or intoxicant) of wrong views. So wrong views apparently are an aspect of clinging in the sense of the clinging aggregates (maybe what you were referring to?). > Jon > > PS Apologies also to you and others for the delay in replying to > these posts. I haven't had much posting time lately. Fortunately, > yesterday was a public holiday, or it might have been even longer. > (Was also Sarah's birthday, her 50th, but with so few options > available due to the SARS scare we ended up going to the beach for a > swim followed by a Thai-food lunch at a local outdoor restaurant!). Hope you were able to bear up under the strain... Mike 21879 From: m. nease Date: Sat May 3, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi Howard, Thanks for your typically well-said message. The portion below reminded me of asobhanacetasika, beautiful factor, that we don't hear much about--mudutaa, malleability. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 5:43 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas > Part of what I *do* know is that tenaciously clinging to a > belief, and ruling out the possibility of error and of the willingness to > come to see that matters *might* be other than they seem, is a defilement, a > hard-to-release form of craving and attachment often also accompanied by > aversion (to other understandings and to people who hold them) and by > ignorance in the sense of the willful ignoring of other possibilities. From CMA, Compendium of Mental Factors, The Beautiful Factors, From Bhikkhu Bodhi's Guide to The Universal Beautiful Factors (p. 85): "...First come the universal beautiful factors, nineteen cetasikas that are invariably present in all beautiful consciousness." (p. 87): "...Malleability (mudutaa): The twofold malleability has the characteristic of the subsiding of rigidity (thambha) in the mental body and consciousness, respectively. Its function is to crush rigidity. It is manifested as non-resistance, and its proximate cause is the mental body and consciousness. It should be regarded as opposed to such defilements as wrong views and conceit, which create rigidity." Thanks as always for your friendly posts. Mike 21880 From: Lee Dillion Date: Sat May 3, 2003 8:24am Subject: sabbe sankhara dukkha On another list, the following statement was made regarding the the third mark or seal that makes sense to me for a number of reasons: "According to the late Ceylonese scholar K. N. Jayatilleke, the first two marks or seals, impermanence and suffering, characterise *only* the mental formations (sankhara, the compositions, the fourth aggregate) in here and not the compounded thing-events (also sankhara) out there. Only the third mark or seal, absence of self, characterises all thing-events (dharma), inner and outer." In the Abhidhamma scheme of things, is sankhara understood as stated above or is it understood to include not simply "mental formations (sankhara, the compositions, the fourth aggregate) in here" but also "the compounded thing-events (also sankhara) out there"? Thanks for any information. -- Lee 21881 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat May 3, 2003 8:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Hi Jon, Thanks for the reply! I appreciate it! This is how I see it: The five aggregates include whole range of the conditioned phenomena/things/situations. Like you have mentioned earlier, concept* is assembled by mind. It is conditioned, subject to change, does not last, impermanent, disintegrates.** Clinging to what is impermanent leads to dukkha. Again, thank you for your reply!! Your comment is much appreciated! Regards, Victor * 1 : something conceived in the mind : THOUGHT, NOTION 2 : an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances synonym see IDEA http://www.webster.com/ ** "The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither- pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-082.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, Swee Boon > and all, > > > > Pardon me for jumping in. > > > > Jon, I would think that you had hit the point with the following: > > > > > > Concepts are simply assembled ('created') by the mind from already > > experienced sense-door impressions (with the help of the > > recollection > > of previously assembled concepts). > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21179 > > > > I would say that what is assembled is impermanent. > > > > This is how I see it: > > Clinging to concept leads to dukkha. Seeing concept thus: "This > > is impermanent. This is dukkha. This is not mine. This I am not. > > > This is not my self." one grows dispassionate toward concept. > > > > Your feedback is appreciated. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > I don't believe the teachings talk about the need to see concept as > impermanent. On the other hand, there are a lot of references to the > need to see clinging as impermanent. At the moment of clinging to > concept, there is certainly the characteristic of impermanence to be > seen in the clinging, for one whose panna is sufficiently highly > developed. > > Jon > > PS If replying, would you mind saying something about what you mean > by 'clinging to concept', so that we aren't talking at > cross-purposes. Thanks. > 21882 From: nidive Date: Sat May 3, 2003 8:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Conventional' and 'absolute' Jon > Again, I'm having difficulty getting your point. I too am bewildered as to why you would claim that the seven perceptions apply only to the Sangha and not the individual. What's a Sangha, except a collection of individuals? I do not think that having the knowledge of Abhidhamma is the key to liberation. The Chief Disciple Venerable Sariputta was fully enlightened even before he received the Abhidhamma from the Buddha. He had no prior knowledge of the Abhidhamma even at the time of his full enlightenment. Do all arahants know the Abhidhamma then? Certainly not. Do all arahants know what is `ultimate realities` then? Certainly not. Seeing the present moment's ultimate dhamma is one thing. Realizing the dispassion for it, the relinquishment of it, is another thing. Seeing the present moment's conventional dhamma is one thing. Realizing the dispassion for it, the relinquishment of it, is another thing. Whether it is ultimate dhamma or conventional dhamma doesn't matter. It is a non-issue. Swee Boon 21883 From: Date: Sat May 3, 2003 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] sabbe sankhara dukkha Hi, Lee - In a message dated 5/3/03 11:25:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, leedillion@c... writes: > On another list, the following statement was made regarding the the > third mark or seal that makes sense to me for a number of reasons: > > "According to the late Ceylonese scholar K. N. Jayatilleke, the first > two marks or seals, impermanence and suffering, characterise *only* the > mental formations (sankhara, the compositions, the fourth aggregate) in > here and not the compounded thing-events (also sankhara) out there. Only > the third mark or seal, absence of self, characterises all thing-events > (dharma), inner and outer." > > In the Abhidhamma scheme of things, is sankhara understood as stated > above or is it understood to include not simply "mental formations > (sankhara, the compositions, the fourth aggregate) in here" but also > "the compounded thing-events (also sankhara) out there"? > > Thanks for any information. > -- > Lee > ============================ I think that Prof. Jayatilleke's understanding is idiosyncratic. David Kalupahana takes the same position, but, that is not so surprising as he was Jayatilleke's student. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21884 From: Lee Dillion Date: Sat May 3, 2003 9:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] sabbe sankhara dukkha upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Lee - > > In a message dated 5/3/03 11:25:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > leedillion@c... writes: > >> On another list, the following statement was made regarding the the >> third mark or seal that makes sense to me for a number of reasons: >> >> >> >> "According to the late Ceylonese scholar K. N. Jayatilleke, the >> first two marks or seals, impermanence and suffering, characterise >> *only* the mental formations (sankhara, the compositions, the >> fourth aggregate) in here and not the compounded thing-events (also >> sankhara) out there. Only the third mark or seal, absence of self, >> characterises all thing-events (dharma), inner and outer." >> >> In the Abhidhamma scheme of things, is sankhara understood as >> stated above or is it understood to include not simply "mental >> formations (sankhara, the compositions, the fourth aggregate) in >> here" but also "the compounded thing-events (also sankhara) out >> there"? >> >> Thanks for any information. -- Lee >> > ============================ > I think that Prof. Jayatilleke's understanding is idiosyncratic. > David Kalupahana takes the same position, but, that is not so > surprising as he was Jayatilleke's student. Hi Howard: Yeah, I am beginning to understand just how idiosyncratic my own approach to Buddhism is as well - but then, I have never viewed such as a negative or as an argument against the approach. :) -- Lee 21885 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat May 3, 2003 9:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Computer as arising and falling away Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply! I don't see the dichotomy of conventional/ultimate necessary, conducive, and relevant in understanding the Buddha's teaching. Thanks again, and your feedback is welcome! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > ... [snip] > > Thanks for giving an answer to my question (BTW, I see that a > categorical answer was apparently not possible ;-)). > > I would regard what you describe here as a very conventional kind of > arising and falling away. It is also, I suggest, an arising and > falling away that can only be known by deduction, i.e., from > observations made at different times or from previous experience > regarding similar objects. > > In my understanding of the teachings, all conditioned phenomena are > said to arise and fall away on a momentary basis, and this manifests > in the impermanence of those conditioned phenomena. This > impermanence is something that can be *directly experienced * as a > *characteristic of the conditioned phenomena* in question. > > I see the 2 as different kinds of arising and falling away, and > different kinds of 'knowing'. I don't know if you would agree with > this? > > Jon 21886 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sat May 3, 2003 9:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Conventional' and 'absolute' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: < snip > Whether it is ultimate dhamma or conventional dhamma doesn't matter. It is a non-issue. Swee Boon KKT: But it is the issue. The << main >> issue, the << main >> point, the << key >> point for many people on this list if I can say, isn't it? Metta, KKT 21887 From: Date: Sat May 3, 2003 4:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas To Howard: In a message dated 5/3/03 5:45:51 AM, upasaka@a... writes: << ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly don't suggest that aversion is called for! But caution and eyes-wide-open are always called for. ---------------------------------------------------- >> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Yes my good friend, Howard, that I believe is why we are yogis practicing mindfulness. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: One comment here, Jeff. Just as some Jews and Christians may search the scriptures and pick out portions to support a particular position they favor, this can be done with the huge tipitaka as well. The Buddha taught an eightfold path, not a one-fold path. Jhanas were practiced quite fully by the Buddha's teachers. It was not enough. For complete enlightenment jhana practice is necessary, but not sufficient. Had it been sufficient, the Indian countryside circa 2500 BCE would have been teeming with arahants! -------------------------------------------------------- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Good point Howard, I am often reminded of the fact that representatives of orthodoxy in every religion can find quotes to support their position that gnosis, the personal experience of unity with the infinite through annihilation of the self, is a bad or unsafe thing. They propose scholarship, or belief, or faith as superior over the practice of contemplation to cultivate the experience of gnosis. Because the unenlightened mind tends to be tenacious, greedy and grasping, they often rise to positions of authority in their institutions. Whereas the mystic has no interest in hierarchies and institutions, because they are intent on the personal experience of gnosis only. This dedication to enlightenment usually sends them seeking isolation where they often undergo poverty in obscurity. Then after a decade or two of purification they find their gnosis and they come out of the wilderness or basement of their obscure village to teach. Unfortunately when these mystics return to lead the people to freedom they encounter those who, instead of pursuing self annihilation pursued academic credentials and positions of authority. And, since this orthodoxy is typically driven by tenacity, greed and attachment, they often obstruct the teaching of the mystics, the enlightened ones. They even have tortured them and burn them at the stake, and crucified them. Now to address what seems to me to be a specific conflict here in our discussion. It seems to me you and others may believe that I am proposing jhana (ecstasy and absorption) as the end all. But, please, my good friend, let me clarify that is most definitely not the case. To me jhana (ecstasy and absorption) is only the fragrance of the flower of enlightenment that attracts the gnostic to enlightenment, like nectar attracts the bee to the flower. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The point is exactly the opposite! We are not better than the Buddha. We are infinitely worse than the Buddha; and no conditioned dhamma, and no practice, is completely free of danger, not due to the dhamma or to the practice itself, but due to *us* and our defilements. (Oh - and one more point: When you write "Perhaps your are better than the Buddha," perhaps you are being unnecessarily sarcastic? Perhaps you might consider your intention in writing that way?) %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Not at all my good friend. There was no sarcasm. I was only trying to point out that I don't believe the historic Buddha would have agreed with you. Some times it seems to me that we often tend to elevate our religious patriarchs like the historic Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Jesus and ... to such high levels of authority that we, nor anyone else, could ever possibly approach their greatness. But, my good friend, enlightenment is the goal, they attained it to show that even you and I can achieve the same goal in our very lifetime. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Look Jeff, I may be wrong about the jhanas. I could be wrong in several ways, some of which favor your position, and some of which go in the opposite direction. I don't *know* the facts, I only have an opinion for here and now. I may learn otherwise. I have only some small experience with jhanas, *way* less than you and Ven Dhammarato. On the other hand, I also have had some other "experiences" that have provided a bit of understanding to me, that have favorably changed my character, and that have provided much help in my life. Part of what I *do* know is that tenaciously clinging to a belief, and ruling out the possibility of error and of the willingness to come to see that matters *might* be other than they seem, is a defilement, a hard-to-release form of craving and attachment often also accompanied by aversion (to other understandings and to people who hold them) and by ignorance in the sense of the willful ignoring of other possibilities. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I couldn't agree more best to you, layman Jeff 21888 From: Date: Sat May 3, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] sabbe sankhara dukkha Hi, Lee - In a message dated 5/3/03 12:34:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, leedillion@c... writes: > Hi Howard: > > Yeah, I am beginning to understand just how idiosyncratic my own > approach to Buddhism is as well - but then, I have never viewed such as > a negative or as an argument against the approach. :) > > -- > Lee > ========================= Well, of course you are correct. A minority view could well be the correct one. After all, the Buddhadhamma, itself, is a "minority view"! Moreover, there is a reasonable (but not telling) argument to made in favor of taking 'sankhara' to mean mental formations in the first two lakkhana. I seem to recall it recorded that the Buddha somewhere said something to the effect "All sankharas are impermanent. Pursue your liberation with diligence." (I just can't remember the quote, but I do recall it leaving open the possibility that 'sankhara' COULD mean something along the lines of "dispositions" there.) The thing is: Other than Jayatilleke and Kalupahana taking that position, I've seen NO one else do so, and I don't recall ever having seen any spirited attempt at defending that position. In any case, while I would have no problem with that actually being the Buddha's meaning for the first two lakkhana, there is still enough evidence throughout the tipitaka as a whole that the Buddha put forward as true the assertion that all dhammas other than nibbana are impermanent and unsatisfying (in the sense that craving their presence or absence, and clinging to them, is exactly what is [the cause] of ill). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21889 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat May 3, 2003 11:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Computer as arising and falling away --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for your reply! > > I don't see the dichotomy of conventional/ultimate necessary, > conducive, and relevant in understanding the Buddha's teaching. > > Thanks again, and your feedback is welcome! > > Regards, > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Victor > > > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > ... > [snip] > > > > Thanks for giving an answer to my question (BTW, I see that a > > categorical answer was apparently not possible ;-)). > > > > I would regard what you describe here as a very conventional kind > of > > arising and falling away. It is also, I suggest, an arising and > > falling away that can only be known by deduction, i.e., from > > observations made at different times or from previous experience > > regarding similar objects. > > > > In my understanding of the teachings, all conditioned phenomena are > > said to arise and fall away on a momentary basis, and this > manifests > > in the impermanence of those conditioned phenomena. This > > impermanence is something that can be *directly experienced * as a > > *characteristic of the conditioned phenomena* in question. > > > > I see the 2 as different kinds of arising and falling away, and > > different kinds of 'knowing'. I don't know if you would agree with > > this? > > > > Jon Jon, the following is an extract from the Chapter 14-Function of Javana, in NINA's Book Abidhamma in Daily Life. "When we are not mindful of realities, we take the objects we experience for self. When panna realizes the objects which are experienced as nama and rupa, elements which do not last, there is less opportunity for akusala javana-cittas. I think this speaks for itself on the very regular question about the "Computer " as an object. with metta, Yasa 21890 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat May 3, 2003 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Different Roads Hi, Jeff, Sorry, I get back to old topic if indeed it is old. One thing is - A truth is a truth and can not be other. To make something like concept (of truth) appealling can only gather more following which do have definite (again 'cause & effect') advantage. The only problem if it is not the real truth then it will mislead a lot of poor persons on the incorrect path(s) and delayed their enlightment. But based on what I had seen, many things (especially big ones - say events, happenings,etc) are already pre-destined or pre-caused (if I may coin or use a new word coming again from the above-mentioned 'cause & effect'). Metta. > Dear Group, > > "Reality (just) wears different costumes to appeal > to the needs and > inclinations of different beings, and that the form > of a person's beliefs > doesn't matter so much." > > Best regards to all, > > Jeff 21891 From: Date: Sat May 3, 2003 10:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Thank-you Christine for your excellent post. best to you layman Jeff In a message dated 5/2/03 11:52:35 PM, cforsyth@v... writes: << Hello Dhammarato Bhikkhu, Jeff, Howard, and All, Jeff - the passage identified for you by Dhammarato Bhikkhu from MN 36.32 has note [390] attached. It says: this verse "marks a change in the Bodhisatta's evaluation of pleasure; now it is no longer regarded as something to be feared and banished by the practice of austerities, but, when born of seclusion and detachment, is seen as a valuable accompaniment of the higher stages along the path to enlightenment." Majjhima 139.9 (The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha - trans. Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) discusses the twofold division of pleasure: "One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? "Bhikkhus, there are these five cords of sensual pleasure. What five? Forms cognizable by the eye ... sounds cognizable by the ear ... odours cognizable by the nose ... flavours cognizable by the tongue ... tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, and likeable, connected with sensual desire and provocative of lust. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. Now the pleasure and joy that arise dependent on these five cords of sensual pleasure are called sensual pleasure - a filthy pleasure, a coarse pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should not be pursued, that it should not be developed, that it should not be cultivated, and that it should be feared. "Here, bhikkhus, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana ... the second jhana ... the third jhana ... the fourth jhana. This is called the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, and that it should not be feared. "So it was with reference to this that it was said: "One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself.' metta, Christine >> 21892 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat May 3, 2003 3:10pm Subject: Intelectual understanding (KKT) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear Jon, > > > KKT: You make a very clear > distinction in the understanding > of the arising and falling away > of a 'conventional' thing and > a paramattha dhamma. > > The arising and falling away of the > former could only be known by deduction > while the latter by direct experience. > > But I am sure that most people > on this list even while talking > about the arising and falling away > of the paramattha dhammas have > only an 'intellectual' understanding > and do not directly experience it. > Therefore it is not different from > the understanding of someone > in the case of a 'conventional' object. > > > Do you think that by accumulating > such 'intellectual' understandings > you arrive some day at a direct > experience of paramattha dhammas ? >________ Dear KKT, Paramattha manjusa (see visuddhimagga xxn.13) "First is has to be seen with inference by the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the development gets stronger." This comes in the section on 'What is and what is not the Path', Maggamagga-nanadasana-visuddhi-nidessa. And this direct experience starts to come in at the beginning, but it cannot be clear until nama and rupa (the 5 aggregates)have been correctly defined over and over. There is so much ignorance(avijja) of dhammas, of the khandas. If that avijja is mixed in with lobha (desire) and wrong view then there is no way out of the cycle. With wrong view there will be much effort, also wrong but it will feel right. One will go the wrong path, sure that they are right. Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking;.......from that wrong effort. From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release......"endquote The five khandas are arising now, one does not have to go anywhere or do anything other than have understanding of them in the moment. Wrong view cannot see that. It is so hard because there is no one who understands. If it is seen then the struggle abates and right effort can arise. Then the present moment becomes a refuge that isn't shaken by outward circumstances, and so very gradually the paramattha dhammas 'come to be seen by direct experience'. Then there is not concern over when the advanced stage of insight that knows the arising and fall of paramattha dhammas will begin. Such concern is only thinking, it can be studied directly and seen as empty. RobertK 21893 From: Date: Sat May 3, 2003 10:20am Subject: [dsg] Jhanas To Ken H: In a message dated 5/3/03 12:33:53 AM, kenhowardau@y... writes: << Hello Jeff, It's a pleasure to talk with you. Considering your confident enthusiasm for meditation and your undoubted accomplishment in that area, I imagine it must be quite puzzling to see so many Dhamma students following a meditation-free path. You have been very patient with us. There *is* a meditation-free way of attaining the Eight- fold Path -- the way of Bare Insight Training. In fact, there are two such ways; if you count the way in which firstly, insight is developed to the stage of Path- consciousness, and only then, secondly, jhana is developed. I gather that you flatly reject these two paths. So I will not try to convince you -- there's no point in an, 'is, isn't, is, isn't,' style of conversation :-) You know far better than I do, that there are many, varied forms of mental training, several of which are claimed to be Buddhist. Rather than look to various, conflicting sources, I want to know only what the Buddha Gotama taught and I'm confining my search strictly to the ancient, Theravadin texts. Here at dsg, I have found people who know those texts intimately -- I have found my Shangrila :-) >> %%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I have walked a number of paths, sometimes there are conflicts. I usually look toward my personal experience to see whether that path has given me "value." I agree with you there is no sense in any claim that is based on "mine is bigger (or better) than yours." I believe one only need reflect on one's own personal success. If one has found even relative freedom from suffering from one's path, then keep "working it." %%%%%%%%%%%%%% Ken H: The way in which I am being taught a sense of urgency is, literally, like no other. In this way, one understands that there is no control over the arising or non-arising of mental states. They will arise when, and only when, the conditions for their arising are present. This is because all dhammas are anatta, without self. %%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Well, I agree with you. The idea of urgency and the rareness of the opportunity to practice, the historic Buddha borrowed from the Vedas. Urgency is a wise thing to cultivate, but I believe the typical implication of that urgency is to inspire the practitioners to renounce their material possessions and take up an intense monastic practice. But, I am not proposing you leave your family, I am just proposing you might find your study of Buddhism better informed if you practiced as well. Buddhism is essentially a contemplative tradition, how can you expect to understand any contemplative tradition without conducting its contemplative practice? %%%%%%%%%%%%%% Ken H: Far from trying to attain enlightenment before the light turns green, I am happy to know that the future does not exist -- that there are only the mental and physical phenomena (nama and rupa), of the present moment. Is there direct understanding (panna), of nama and rupa NOW? If not, why not; what dhammas ARE present? These are the things that interest me, not meditation. %%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I don't see how you can hope to penetrate the aggregates of the psychophysiological conditions that are the underpinnings of your own personal nama rupa without the practice of meditation. But, if you are happy with celebrating the Buddha's birthday, I am sure your scholarship places you in an excellent position to do so. Best to you, layman Jeff 21894 From: Date: Sat May 3, 2003 10:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhanas To Sukin: In a message dated 5/2/03 8:53:34 PM, sukin@k... writes: << Jeff, I hope you don't mind me putting off replying to your other posts, since I don't have much time at the moment and would like reply to this one first. In the process I can answer Victor too. >> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: No problem my good friend Sukin, this culture we live in requires so very much attention. It is difficult to maintain a practice, a livelihood, parenting, scholarship and the community of seekers. It is quite some juggling act we all do isn't it? There were times when all I could do was sit dreary eyed before my simple alter, for only a few minutes, before sleep swept over me. ============================================= Sukin: Victor, but my point is not because it is difficult, if I really saw the value I would have found a way to do it. As in my own case, when my second son was just less than 3 months old, I decided to go for my first Goenka retreat. I thought that this was more important at that time, than worrying about my wife being alone with two kids and a nanny. Five months later, while my wife was visiting her parents in India, I went for my second retreat in another part of that country. I planned at that time, to take at least one retreat a year, if not two. But just two months after my second retreat, while I was desperately looking around for dhamma friends to discuss and meditate with, I met RobK on the net. He introduced me to K. Sujin and dsg. Not long after that, I had to stop meditating, for reason other than difficulty. But I must admit at this point, that I had no accumulations for doing it anyway. More comments follow. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Excellent choice sitting at least one retreat each year has helped me as well all of these years of my practice. Retreats are often a way to renew one's practice, and to regain one's inspiration. As for accumulations (merit) I don't know if that has much to do with it as simply coming to a place in your practice where you are relaxed and at peace at least for the few moments of your practice. If you can find even some small peace in your practice, then that peace should feel like a cool oasis in the tedious wilderness of your day. Then, if you can keep recalling that cool oasis of your practice during the day while you toil in the tangled wilderness of whatever mode of subsistence that you are engaged in, then I believe you will grow to long for the peace of your practice. And, if you can find the odd moment to close your eyes and recall that cool oasis that is your practice, even while waiting for the light to change, or traffic to move on the clogged expressway, or waiting for the train, bus or subway to take you home. Then, I think you will reinforce the value sitting practice has for you. I used to work 2 stories underground at Steward Observatory where I redesigned a balloon-borne telescope. The pay was not good for the level of work I was expected to do, but I had the advantage of the University of Arizona mall where I could ascend for a lunch break and lay in shivassana everyday under a sycamore outside the Lunar Planetary Lab, the seeds for which had been to the moon and back. That tree was my own personal "Bo Tree." But, I know how difficult it is to find a place to practice during the middle of the day, but I also know how very, very useful it is. Sometimes there is too much going on at home. When my oldest was very young she cried day and night, poor thing, from colic, which just turned into teething. At that time I worked at Chevron Research where there wasn't even a tree outside to sit under, nor an office to my self, where I could close the door and lay on a drafting table, that I could lay flat and lie on, which as you can guess I have also done. At Chevron I used to go outside the W.W.II vintage quancit hut that was our lab and sit in the sun in the narrow passage between labs and lean back on an old chair and close my eyes and meditate. I am sure the other technicians assumed I was just snoozing. Now I am a student again because I want to move from being a computer geek, scientific instrument designer to being a dharma teacher. There was no place on campus to meditate except on the mall with Frisbee play, free music and Christian gospel hawked in loud like gnosis is something one can sell at a carnival. I looked around and found a small chapel called the Chapel of All Nations, which was empty most of the time. So, I asked them if I could use it for meditation. They said, "Sure, any time it isn't scheduled." To make sure it was available according my schedule I started a campus meditation club, now others join me. Maybe you can organize something in your work environment as well. ======================================== Sukin: Yes, I didn't think that you would be viewing 'concentration' this way. What I had in mind was that you made a connection between concentration as a factor of the path, and developing a practice which you think would lead to the development of that factor. But I think there may be no connection between the two, but I am not sure. My understanding is that concentration arises with every citta, the problem is just that it fixes on the object according to ignorance or understanding. Such that if it is a concept, then the object would be that, and if it is a reality, the object would be that. And if it is the concentration of jhana which is being used, then in any case it would have to be developed under special conditions, which again requires that one have quite a high level of panna to assure that nothing goes wrong. If one didn't have the panna, then the concentration practice would surely result in wrong practice. Besides, the Buddha's teachings are so very hard to get right and what if one does not have the teachings at all to guide (in another lifetime), wouldn't one be risking taking these accumulated tendencies to be used in the wrong way?! On the other hand, the habit of satipatthana can only take one in the right direction, because it cannot be *used* in the wrong way. And right understanding resulting in detachment is accumulated, such that it can have a slight influence even if one does not have the teachings. Just speculating here though. ;-) But it does make sense, no? :- ) ...maybe not. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I believe Sukin, my good friend, you might be better served with giving yourself more credit, and perhaps have more faith in the practice. "One does not get to Ladakha" (Rome, Jerusalem, Mecca whatever holy place) without placing one foot in front of the next. You need only practice, and practice. If you practice diligently, I am sure, you will find your way there, because the path is self-correcting. You will not stray off for long, if you just keep walking your path. ================================== Sukin: I am not promoting intellectual understanding per se, I see a big difference in this and the actual application, as Mike has just shown me. I do however believe that it must start with 'understanding' the teachings, which is reading or hearing the words of the Buddha and knowing what they mean. The application level is based on this initial level, which is the same panna cetasika being developed to higher levels. This then ultimately leads through repeated application over countless lives, to the realization level, which is still based on the same panna cetasika having being developed to this level. So where the need to particularly practice concentration! May I suggest one thing, and hope you don't mind it. The idea that 'concentration' might be used as a tool as you have suggested, to penetrate realities, *may* be connected with desire to achieve enlightenment in this very life. Isolating concentration from other factors seem attractive to this end, since by conventional thinking, it looks like that *this* can be developed within a set span of time, like 10, 20 or 30 years. Hope I have not been too presumptuous, and I hope you don't mind it. I am just trying to find the reason for such an attitude. :-) %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Yes, I agree we begin with some simple instructions like the 3 Gems, the 4 Noble Truths, the 8 Fold Path, and the 5 Precepts that should be enough to get anyone started and practicing. It seems, my good friend, you are well beyond that point. Yes, we keep studying and reflecting on what we study and asking questions, as you are doing here, very good. But, always practice, and inform your practice with study. But, never forget to always inform your study with practice. They go hand-in-hand. If you just study without practicing, then you will know only a tiny little bit, even if you have a Ph.D. in Buddhism. This type of person may think he or she knows a lot, when they really know nothing. I do not believe one can comprehend the Dhamma without a sitting practice. Without satipatana, study is empty, empty. Without concentration one cannot have absorption. Without absorption one cannot have insight. Without insight one cannot have realization. Without realization scholarship means nothing. Yes, my good friend, through the correct practice of satipattana one can most definitely become enlightened in this very life. One need only practice diligently with the intention of becoming enlightened in this very lifetime, and it will no doubt happen. ================================== Sukin: Again there seem to be implying, prior practice of some kind, that one must first be in a state of mind ready for insight. But this is not how I understand the practice to be nor the process of insight. The experience is just like any other moment, just more deeper understanding of the very experience, and this can be following any state of mind, and can be followed by any state. Of course if it is enlightenment that you are talking about, then the citta must be supramundane. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Yes, I have read all kinds of perceptions of what vipassana (insight) is. I can only say, insight is a state or condition in which the mind comes to rest from which we penetrate the nature of reality and are we are guided to deeper practice, deeper insight, and deeper realizations. Thinking will not get you there, no matter what any body tells you. There are many ways to get to emptiness, no-mind, equanimity, whatever term you want to describe the condition of no-thought. Gradual practice in satipattana is an excellent path. ================================== Sukin: And Jeff, I think you do not quite understand the study of nama and rupa. One does understand the distinction between the labelling (though it seems so hard for me) and the actual experience. And you may be thinking that too much study results in too many words in the head or something, I would like to suggest that the use and accumulation of words and thinking is what we engage in anyway, whether we know it or not. And it would be better that we use the correct words and *understand* the process, than denying that there is *thinking* and the use of words all the time, and so be influenced by them unawares. Vitaka and vichara accompanies all cittas except the 10 sense consciousness I think. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Actually, Sukin, I am only a layman with a few years of practice and a tiny bit of scholarship. What do I know, but I have been wondering if Buddhists understand what nama rupa means? It is a concept borrowed by the historic Buddha from the Vedic tradition, which in its simplest form is typically translated from the Sanskrit as "name and form." In the Vedic tradition nama rupa means our perception of the objective universe. That is everything that can be perceived as a subject observer. Therefore it is the appearance of things as well as the accompanying conception of those things. That is what I meant by the nama rupa of Buddhism. It is Buddhism in name and from only or the superficial adherence to Buddhism in name or appearance only. Just putting on robes does not make an enlightened being, or even a peaceful being. One has to penetrate all of the way to infinite space/time/consciousness, and No-Thingness to penetrate all of the layer of nama rupa. There are many concept in Buddhism that were borrowed from the Vedas. Often when there is a question, it might be worth examining the Vedas for the original meaning of a particular concept in question. I believe in part what the historic Buddha did was to make the Vedas available to the common person. Before his time the Vedas could only be studied by the Brahman, and the literature described severe punishments for anyone who even unknowingly allowed the wisdom of the Vedas to be "sullied by the lower casts." One need only read the Mahabarata for ample evidence. ========================================== Sukin: My kids are calling for attention, I have to go. I will just end here with the reminder about "catching the snake by the wrong end". This I think means, undue reliance on intellectual knowledge and mistaking this to be an end in itself. But on the other hand, this does not mean that intellectual knowledge can be discarded. Intellectual knowledge has to stay to serve its purpose of conditioning the patipatti and up to the pativedha level, one does not choose to discard it. Only panna can make the distinction. On the other hand, if one prematurely sees a need not to rely on it, or even think about discarding it, or make a judgment against its value, then *that* wouldn't be the work of panna. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Yes, of course that is why I said, "Study, reflect on what you study, and inform your practice with study, but direct your study from your daily meditation practice. Always practice, and inform your practice with study. But, never forget to always inform your study with practice. They go hand-in-hand. If you just study without practicing, then you will know only a tiny little bit. You don't need a Ph.D. in Buddhism before you practice. I am sure if you practice even a little bit you will know far more than any Ph.D. in Buddhism who doesn't practice. That is why I am working to build a practice oriented graduate program at the University of Arizona, where there is an excellent Asian Studies program, a Religions Program, and a Consciousness Studies Program, but no practice, yet. Give the kids a kiss for me. Best to you, layman Jeff 21895 From: connie Date: Sat May 3, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Re: Regulation for all Buddhas but not shared by others Hi, Sarah ~ came across this in some notes I was reading today. peace, connie Teacher of the Devas - Susan Elbaum Jootla: One might wonder why the Buddha, who had prepared himself for numerous lifetimes just to teach the Dhamma to other beings, needed the prompting of Brahma Sahampati to set out on his mission. The commentary offers two explanations: (1) only after he had attained Buddahood could the Buddha fully comprehend the actual scope of the defilements saturating the minds of beings and the profundity of the Dhamma; and (2) he wanted a brahma to request him to teach so the numerous followers of Maha Brahma would be inclined to listen to the Dhamma. 21896 From: Date: Sat May 3, 2003 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Different Roads To eddielou: In a message dated 5/3/03 2:27:32 PM, eddielou_us@y... writes: << Hi, Jeff, Sorry, I get back to old topic if indeed it is old. One thing is - A truth is a truth and can not be other. To make something like concept (of truth) appealling can only gather more following which do have definite (again 'cause & effect') advantage. The only problem if it is not the real truth then it will mislead a lot of poor persons on the incorrect path(s) and delayed their enlightment. But based on what I had seen, many things (especially big ones - say events, happenings,etc) are already pre-destined or pre-caused (if I may coin or use a new word coming again from the above-mentioned 'cause & effect'). Metta. >> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Yes, my good friend eddielou, Sri Ramakrishna often said, "Truth is one, tough it has many names and forms." The trick is not to get caught up in the name and from, but to penetrate to the truth or essence of the thing. I believe we really have no hope of not getting "misled" when we are under the sway of nama rupa. Best just to bring that mind to rest, however one can. If that is exhausting it through scholarship or just learning to bring it gently to rest through contemplative practice, it doesn't matter. Wearing saffron does not assure one is not just taking on a new nama rupa. Otherwise it is only mazes within mazes, illusions within illusions, games within games, dreams within dreams, even if they are saffron dreams. It is still only a dream. Best to you, layman Jeff 21897 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 4, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conventional truths vs. ultimate truths Swee Boon I think you are making the point (here, and perhaps also in your other threads with me) that: (a) the Buddha taught both conventional and ultimate truths in the same sutta, and (b) accordingly there is no significance in the distinction between the two; both are to be known. I hope I've got it right this time ;-)) As to point (a), I think we are pretty much in agreement, although I would express it slightly differently. I would say that the truths taught by the Buddha as aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path are ultimate truths (only), but that those truths are expressed in both conventional and ultimate terms/language. In other words, conventional truths were not taught *as an aspect of the Noble Eightfold Path*, although they were of course referred to (for example, when advising people of wholesome ways to live their lives, etc.). But mostly what we are being invited to understand are the ultimate truths that are unique to a Buddha's teaching, and these may be expressed conventionally or in mixed conventional and ultimate terms. Thus, to take the example of the 2 links of dependent origination relating to 'aging-and-death' and 'birth' (S. 12.2 (2) 'Analysis of Dependent Origination' at CDB p.534): <<"And what, bhikkhus, is dependent arising? With ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; ...; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death ...">> The meaning of 'death' and 'birth' in these 2 links is explained later in the sutta as follows: <<"And what, bhikkhus, is [aging-and-]death? ... The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death.[2] ... "And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent [into the womb], production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth.[3] ...>> The commentary to these 2 explanations points out that both conventional terminology and ultimate terminology are being employed here: <<[2] Spk: By the terms from "passing away" through "completion of time" he expounds death in worldly conventional terminology (lokasammutiyaa); by the expressions "breakup of the aggregates" and "the laying down of the carcass" he expounds death in the ultimate sense (paramattha). For in the ultimate sense it is only the aggregates that break up; there is no "being" that dies. When the aggregates are breaking up one says, "A being is dying," and when they have broken up it is said, "The being has died." [3] Spk: From "birth" through "production" the teaching is conventional (vohaaradesanaa); the last two terms are an ultimate teaching (paramatthadesanaa). For in the ultimate sense it is only the aggregates that become manifest, not a being.>> Now whether we regard this as an instance of 'conventional truths vs. ultimate truths' in the same sutta, or as an instance of 'ultimate truths, expressed in both conventinal language and ultimate terms' in the same sutta, is probably beside the point. The important thing is to appreciate that it is the understanding of the truths in their ultimate sense that leads to enlightenment. This of course does not mean that the truths have no validity in the conventional sense; clearly they do, but to pursue the understanding of the truths in the conventional sense in the belief that that level of understanding constitutes the mundane path would in my view be a mistake. I hope this clarifies that I am not denying the existence of conventional truths within the teachings; I am merely suggesting that what we read in the suttas is often meant to be understood at a deeper level than might at first sight be appreciated. Jon --- nidive wrote: > Jon, ... > > I hope this helps clarify any apparent inconsistency in the use > > of conventional and ultimate references within the same sutta. > > No, there is no inconsistency. Conventional or ultimate doesn't > matter. There isn't a need for such a differentiation. That's why > the Buddha taught both conventional and ultimate in the same sutta. > > Swee Boon 21898 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 4, 2003 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conventional right view vs. Noble right view Smallchap I agree with what you say below regarding conventional right view ;-)), except for something that I'll mention at the end of my post. Specifically, I agree with you that: One should not disregard conventional right view. It has its place in developing insight. It should not be regarded as something that will hinder insight. I certainly think conventional right view if developed will support the development of insight. Nevertheless, as this important sutta passage points out, there is a distinction to be made between conventional right view and right view of the [mundane] path. That distinction is explained in the sutta as follows (with my comments in brackets): Conventional right view is right view that - 'sides with merit' (i.e., is kusala) and - 'results in the acquisitions of becoming' (i.e., leads to further rebirth, rather than to the ending of samsara). Noble right view is right view that - is 'transcendent' (i.e., leads to escape from samsara) and - is 'a factor of the path' (i.e., constitutes the path-factor of right view at moment of enlightenment, having been accumulated as a mundane path-factor during the development of insight prior to that). From this we can see that while conventional right view is kusala, it is not the right view that arises at a moment of insight; only right view that is understanding of the level of insight is 'noble' in being the right view that issues in enlightenment. It is important to know this distinction in theory so that it can be recognised in practice. The part of your post that I have reservations about is your statement that "The thought of conventional impermanence often triggers insight.", insofar as you are saying this is a statement found in the texts. For a start, a thought of conventional impermanence is not *necessarily* kusala, and unless we are skilled at knowing the difference between moments that are kusala and moments that are accompanied by very subtle akusala, there is no way of being able to tell. Secondly, there is nothing in the texts that says that insight is 'triggered' by any particular factor(s); there are only descriptions of factors the development of which are indispensable to insight (I'm sure you appreciate the distinction). Thanks again for your comments and for the sutta quote. Jon PS A follow-up question for you, Smallchap. In this thread we have been talking about the sense in which it can be said that a computer is conditioned. Would you say that the knowledge that a computer is built from parts and did not spontaneously come into existence as an assembled whole, or knowledge of the need for parts, skill and effort as a condition for the coming into existence of a computer, is conventional right view? (Not a trick question, I promise ;-)) --- smallchap wrote: > Dear Jon, ... > S: The thought of conventional impermanence often triggers insight. > It has its place in developing insight. It should not be regarded > as something that will hinder insight. > > In the Maha-cattarisaka Sutta (MN 117), it is said: > > "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: > There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, > resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble > right > view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. > > "And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with > merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is > offered, > what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad > actions. > There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. > There > are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives > who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the > next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' > This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & > results in acquisitions. > > "And what is the right view that is without fermentations, > transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of > discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as > a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view in one > developing > the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from > fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is > the > right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of > the path. > > > So, one should not disregard conventional right view. > > > smallchap 21899 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 4, 2003 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Significance of the 5 aggregates Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > How are the five aggregates to be understood? I would refer to the > discourse > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 > Khandha Sutta > Aggregates > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html > > for answer. Thanks for the reference. I will certainly have a look at this sutta as soon as I have time, and get back to you on it. > I would not assume that "what we speak of as a person is in reality > nothing more than the five groups." This statement of mine was an attempt at paraphrasing a passage from S. V. 10. Here it is again, with a revised paraphrase: <<< (a) When all constituent parts are there, The designation 'cart' is used; (b) Just so, where the five groups exist, Of 'living being' do we speak. >>> Paraphrase: (a) When certain constituent parts are in place, we designate that particular combination of parts as a 'cart'. (b) Likewise, when all five aggregates exist, we call that particular combination a 'living being' (i.e., a 'person', 'animal' etc). I think the statement at (b) can also be expressed as in my earlier post, namely, "What we speak of as a person is in reality nothing more than the five groups." How do you understand the passage at S. V. 10? Would you care to say a little about why, specifically, you think that my summary does not accurately reflect the passage's meaning? Thanks. Jon 21900 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 4, 2003 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] sabbe sankhara dukkha Hi Lee, Good to see you around again;-) --- Lee Dillion wrote: > On another list, the following statement was made regarding the the > third mark or seal that makes sense to me for a number of reasons: > > "According to the late Ceylonese scholar K. N. Jayatilleke, the first > two marks or seals, impermanence and suffering, characterise *only* the > mental formations (sankhara, the compositions, the fourth aggregate) in > here and not the compounded thing-events (also sankhara) out there. ..... I’m not sure of the full context for the quote and assume the *only* is not referring to sankhara khandha as opposed to any other khandhas in anyway. This being the case, I think the Abhidhamma texts confirm what Jayatilleke says in part. Anicca and dukkha ‘characterise’ sankhara khandha. They do not characterise ‘compounded thing-events out there’, i.e pannatti (concepts), because the latter do not have characteristics (lakhana) or nature (sabhava). They are merely conceptualised. I don’t understand from the texts that they can be considered as sankhara (compunded or formed up). In the expression ‘sabbe sankhara anicca’ and so on, sankhara refers to conditioned realities, not to concepts. Pls see my post to Victor on meanings of sankhara: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m17717.html In particular, pls see the extract from Nyantiloka’s dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sankhaara.htm ..... >Only > the third mark or seal, absence of self, characterises all thing-events > (dharma), inner and outer." ..... In a sense, I think this is correct. Even thing-events (concepts) can be said to be anatta in the sense of ‘absence of self’. This has been discussed before here and is an interesting point. ..... > In the Abhidhamma scheme of things, is sankhara understood as stated > above or is it understood to include not simply "mental formations > (sankhara, the compositions, the fourth aggregate) in here" but also > "the compounded thing-events (also sankhara) out there"? ..... As you’ll see from the extracts, sankhara khandha only includes the 50 mental factors (i.e. all mental factors other than sanna (perception) and vedana (feeling) which have their ‘own’ aggregates). I don’t think there has to be any idea of ‘in here’ and ‘out there’ - no self or being, merely the 5 aggregates that can be known. Any concepts about these or anything else are not sankhara. Others are asking why any of this matters (i.e the differentiation between what is an ‘ultimate reality’ or conditioned reality with the 3 characteristics and what is a ‘conventional reality’ only). As I understand, if there is no understanding, even intellectually in the first place, of this distinction, people, beings, thing-events (such as computer and marriage) will be taken to *exist* and there will be no eradication or lessening of the idea of *self*. This is why these discussions, imho, lie at the heart of the Buddha’s teachings and why he repeatedly talked about the elements, aggregates and sense fields to be known. In summary, the comments didn’t seem so idiosyncratic to me;-) Please let me know if any of this sounds jumbled or if you disagree. With metta, Sarah ===== 21901 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 4, 2003 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Addressing a Bhikkhuni Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > I will be attending a lecture on Monday on Vipassana given by > Bhikkhuni Kusuma. > I would like to know how one addresses a Bhikkhuni? ..... I expect by now you have met her and she'll have clarified the appropriate address. Probably I'd have addressed her as Ven Kusuma unless informed otherwise. I'd be glad to hear about the lecture, your impressions and conclusions if you'd care to share more. Metta, Sarah ======= > > "Bhikkhuni Kusuma is a fully ordained nun in the Theravada > tradition. This caused much controversy which is still not resolved > today. The ordination of women in the Theravada tradition was > brought to Sri Lanka in the third century BC by Ven Sanghamitta. 21902 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 4, 2003 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 3 Hi Jaran, Like Nina, I appreciate the good reminders and your effort to translate so that we can have a taste of some of the discussions. It even sounds like her voice;-) Always back to this moment of experiencing reality in daily life. Today I felt very tired and had a big sleep this afternoon. Even as I drifted in and out of sleep there were different realities to be known - hearing, sound, body experiencing, rupas or physical sensations, attachment, sloth and torpor, thinking and so on. Still only the present moment and present realities that can be known - no need to think another time or place would be more suitable for sati (awareness). Look forward to more extracts and any comments from you on other threads too;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Hope you were still able to go on your trip to Thailand and visit family etc in spite of SARS alerts. ================================== --- Jaran Jainhuknan wrote: > > A Sujin: It's not the the matters of knowing the name that can address > this questions. A skillful person is steadfast of being honest to know > whether or not at this moment of, say, seeing, he is able to experience > realities as they truely are. > > At the moment of seeing, there are both seeing and what is > being seen. And both now quickly have fallen away. > Similarly, at the moment of hearing, there is hearing and > what is being heard. If we are to experience the realities, > we will experience the characteristics of hearing that it is > the element that ``knows'' an object and what is heard as > the element that is being experienced. All of these happen > in daily, ordinary life. 21903 From: Krop Date: Sun May 4, 2003 4:46am Subject: Re: Different Roads I certainly don't believe in the "all roads lead to Rome" view on this. I think some lead to the goal and others don't. One path which I'm sure may lead to liberation is Yoga. Why? Well, the final attainment in Yoga is said to be nirvikalpa samadhi, or complete citta vitri nirodha (ending of mental modifications); in tantric sources this is said to happen when all the energy (prana) out of the body ("uniting kundalini with sahasrara"). This state is the same as nirodha samapatti, and this requires the attainment of the state of arahant or non-returner. So those yogis who achieve this feat have either gained liberated insight of the level of arhat or non-returner before, or have become arhats or non-returners upon emerging from this state. 21904 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 4, 2003 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Regulation for all Buddhas but not shared by others Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > Hi, Sarah ~ > Teacher of the Devas - Susan Elbaum Jootla: > One might wonder why the Buddha, who had prepared himself for numerous > lifetimes just to teach the Dhamma to other beings, needed the prompting > of Brahma Sahampati to set out on his mission. ..... I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who has wondered;-) ..... >The commentary offers two > explanations: (1) only after he had attained Buddahood could the Buddha > fully comprehend the actual scope of the defilements saturating the > minds of beings and the profundity of the Dhamma; and (2) he wanted a > brahma to request him to teach so the numerous followers of Maha Brahma > would be inclined to listen to the Dhamma. ..... Thx, this gave me some clues and I checked a little further: As quoted from Vin 1:5 in the “Life of the Buddha” by Nanamoli, the reasoning common to all Buddhas on reviewing the profundity of the Dhamma: “This Dhamma that I have attained to is profound and hard to see, hard to discover; it is the most peceful and superior goal of all, not attainable by mere ratiocination , subtle, for the wise to experience. But this generation relies on attachment, relishes attachment, delights in attachment. It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, that is to say, specific conditionality, dependent arising. And it is hard to wee this truth, that is to say, stilling of all formations, re;inquishing of the essentials of existence, exhaustion of craving, fading of lust, cessation, Nibbana...” The Buddha then listened to Brahma Sahampati’s pleading and “Out of compassion for beings he surveyed the world with the eye of a Buddha.........so too he saw beings with little dust on their eyes....” In other words, I think that the Brahma’s pleading was the necessary condition for the Buddha to ‘survey the world...’. I think this relates to the nature of his omniscience. As Nina stressed with quotes in a couple of posts (see ‘Omniscience’ in Useful Posts), omniscience refers to the Buddha’s knowledge of whatever his mind turns to. So before Brahma’s pleading, there were no conditions to ‘survey’ and ‘see’ those beings ‘with little dust’. Following your other note above, the comy to the Buddhavamsa gives a lot more detail. It mentions Brahma Sampatti as being surrounded by “a host of Brahmas from the ten-thousand world-systems...followed by Sakka, Suyama, Santusita and by the devas .....” The Buddha then agrees: “What is the use while I remain unknown of realizing dhamma here? Having reached omniscience I will help the world together with the devas to cross over.” With metta, Sarah ====== 21905 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 4, 2003 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Different Roads Hi Krop, Welcome to DSG and thanks for posting an interesting introductory post;-) --- Krop wrote: > > I certainly don't believe in the "all roads lead to Rome" view on this. > I think some lead to the goal and others don't. .... Yes, I also think different roads, different goals. ..... > One path which I'm sure may lead to liberation is Yoga. Why? Well, the > final attainment in Yoga is said to be nirvikalpa samadhi, or complete > citta vitri nirodha (ending of mental modifications); in tantric > sources this is said to happen when all the energy (prana) out of the > body ("uniting kundalini with sahasrara"). This state is the same as > nirodha samapatti, and this requires the attainment of the state of > arahant or non-returner. ..... I agree with your last comment about nirodha samapatti. I don’t understand this to be as you describe in the first part of the paragraph however but am going to let it pass at that;-) ..... >So those yogis who achieve this feat have > either gained liberated insight of the level of arhat or non-returner > before, or have become arhats or non-returners upon emerging from this > state. ..... I understood there were great yogis and jhana practitioners before the Buddha’s time, but certainly no ariyans (in the Buddhist sense of the word). Let me know if I’m mistaken. Krop, these brief comments are merely an excuse to welcome you here and if possible to encourage you to introduce yourself a little. We’d all be glad to hear a little about your background/interest in Buddhism and where you live. To avoid any confusion, we also ask everyone here to address a person(s), even if it’s ‘All’ and to sign off with the name you wish us to address you by, preferably a 'real' name. Metta, Sarah ===== 21906 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 4, 2003 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Significance of the 5 aggregates Hi Jon, Thanks again for the reply! I wonder what S. V. stands for and if there is some online reference that I can check. Thanks, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > ... > > How are the five aggregates to be understood? I would refer to the > > discourse > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 > > Khandha Sutta > > Aggregates > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html > > > > for answer. > > Thanks for the reference. I will certainly have a look at this sutta > as soon as I have time, and get back to you on it. > > > I would not assume that "what we speak of as a person is in reality > > nothing more than the five groups." > > This statement of mine was an attempt at paraphrasing a passage from > S. V. 10. Here it is again, with a revised paraphrase: > > <<< > (a) When all constituent parts are there, > The designation 'cart' is used; > (b) Just so, where the five groups exist, > Of 'living being' do we speak. > >>> > > Paraphrase: > (a) When certain constituent parts are in place, we designate that > particular combination of parts as a 'cart'. > (b) Likewise, when all five aggregates exist, we call that particular > combination a 'living being' (i.e., a 'person', 'animal' etc). > > I think the statement at (b) can also be expressed as in my earlier > post, namely, "What we speak of as a person is in reality nothing > more than the five groups." > > How do you understand the passage at S. V. 10? Would you care to say > a little about why, specifically, you think that my summary does not > accurately reflect the passage's meaning? > > Thanks. > > Jon 21907 From: Star Kid Date: Sun May 4, 2003 5:38am Subject: A message for you! Dear Christine, Thankyou for the lovely reply and the story about 'Devadatta'! I love history alot! History is my favourite subject! Your reply has really told me alot of things, example even though somebody has been very mean to you and tries different things to hurt you or to upset you, you can always be nice to them and maybe they'll really learn their lesson. Do you have anymore history about the Buddha's enemies or any people who behaved badly and learnt their lesson in the end? Metta, Sandy P.S. Thankyou once again for the lovely reply! 21908 From: Star Kid Date: Sun May 4, 2003 5:40am Subject: A message for you, Kiana! Hi Kiana, I'm certainly surprised tht you've sent me a letter! Yes, I do agree that we haven't written to each other for a long time! Yes, I did learn alot of things about the Buddha! Such as the Buddha having an enemy, 'Devadatta'. Devadatta has done alot of things just to kill the Buddha, but the Buddha did not do anything bad to him at all. This has shown me that the Buddha has a very kind heart. I think it is very interesting! Well, it is interesting because they're lot's of teachings and problems to be learnt. Have you leant anything about the Buddha? Take Care too! Metta, Sandy 21909 From: Date: Sun May 4, 2003 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] sabbe sankhara dukkha Hi, Sarah (and Lee) - In a message dated 5/4/03 7:13:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Lee, > > Good to see you around again;-) > > --- Lee Dillion wrote: >On another list, the > following statement was made regarding the the > >third mark or seal that makes sense to me for a number of reasons: > > > >"According to the late Ceylonese scholar K. N. Jayatilleke, the first > >two marks or seals, impermanence and suffering, characterise *only* the > >mental formations (sankhara, the compositions, the fourth aggregate) in > >here and not the compounded thing-events (also sankhara) out there. > ..... > I’m not sure of the full context for the quote and assume the *only* is > not referring to sankhara khandha as opposed to any other khandhas in > anyway. > > This being the case, I think the Abhidhamma texts confirm what Jayatilleke > says in part. Anicca and dukkha ‘characterise’ sankhara khandha. They do > not characterise ‘compounded thing-events out there’, i.e pannatti > (concepts), because the latter do not have characteristics (lakhana) or > nature (sabhava). They are merely conceptualised. I don’t understand from > the texts that they can be considered as sankhara (compunded or formed > up). In the expression ‘sabbe sankhara anicca’ and so on, sankhara refers > to conditioned realities, not to concepts. > > Pls see my post to Victor on meanings of sankhara: > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m17717.html > > In particular, pls see the extract from Nyantiloka’s dictionary: > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sankhaara.htm > ..... > > >Only > >the third mark or seal, absence of self, characterises all thing-events > >(dharma), inner and outer." > ..... > In a sense, I think this is correct. Even thing-events (concepts) can be > said to be anatta in the sense of ‘absence of self’. This has been > discussed before here and is an interesting point. > ..... > > >In the Abhidhamma scheme of things, is sankhara understood as stated > >above or is it understood to include not simply "mental formations > >(sankhara, the compositions, the fourth aggregate) in here" but also > >"the compounded thing-events (also sankhara) out there"? > ..... > As you’ll see from the extracts, sankhara khandha only includes the 50 > mental factors (i.e. all mental factors other than sanna (perception) and > vedana (feeling) which have their ‘own’ aggregates). I don’t think there > has to be any idea of ‘in here’ and ‘out there’ - no self or being, > merely > the 5 aggregates that can be known. Any concepts about these or anything > else are not sankhara. > > Others are asking why any of this matters (i.e the differentiation between > what is an ‘ultimate reality’ or conditioned reality with the 3 > characteristics and what is a ‘conventional reality’ only). As I > understand, if there is no understanding, even intellectually in the first > place, of this distinction, people, beings, thing-events (such as computer > and marriage) will be taken to *exist* and there will be no eradication or > lessening of the idea of *self*. This is why these discussions, imho, lie > at the heart of the Buddha’s teachings and why he repeatedly talked about > the elements, aggregates and sense fields to be known. > > In summary, the comments didn’t seem so idiosyncratic to me;-) > > Please let me know if any of this sounds jumbled or if you disagree. > > With metta, > > Sarah ============================ If the position of Jayatilleke merely excluded pa~n~natti from the tilakkhana, as being ultimately non-existent, that would be one thing. But I don't think that is what is being said at all by Jayatilleke and Ka;upahana. I think that what is being said basically is that 'sankhara' means "dispositions" or "inclinations" in "Sabbe sankhara anicca" and in "Sabbe sankhara dukkha". I think that what is being excluded includes all of the khandhas of rupa, vedana, sa~n~na, and vi~n~nana. David Kalupahanaha, for example, translates 'Sabbe sankhara anicca' as "All dispositions are impermanent". It is an interesting reading, possibly even the correct one, but certainly not the usual one. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21910 From: Lee Dillion Date: Sun May 4, 2003 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] sabbe sankhara dukkha Sarah wrote: > Hi Lee, > > Good to see you around again;-) > > --- Lee Dillion wrote: > On another list, the > following statement was made regarding the the >> third mark or seal that makes sense to me for a number of reasons: >> >> "According to the late Ceylonese scholar K. N. Jayatilleke, the first >> two marks or seals, impermanence and suffering, characterise *only* the >> mental formations (sankhara, the compositions, the fourth aggregate) in >> here and not the compounded thing-events (also sankhara) out there. > ..... > I’m not sure of the full context for the quote and assume the *only* is > not referring to sankhara khandha as opposed to any other khandhas in > anyway. > > This being the case, I think the Abhidhamma texts confirm what Jayatilleke > says in part. Anicca and dukkha ‘characterise’ sankhara khandha. They do > not characterise ‘compounded thing-events out there’, i.e pannatti > (concepts), because the latter do not have characteristics (lakhana) or > nature (sabhava). They are merely conceptualised. I don’t understand from > the texts that they can be considered as sankhara (compunded or formed > up). In the expression ‘sabbe sankhara anicca’ and so on, sankhara refers > to conditioned realities, not to concepts. Hi Sarah: Thanks for this very clear and precise explanation. It differs from how several others (on other lists) have understood the thrust of K. N. Jayatilleke's reasoning, but it is helpful nonetheless to my effort to understand the Abhidhamma approach. Lee 21911 From: Lee Dillion Date: Sun May 4, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] sabbe sankhara dukkha upasaka@a... wrote: > If the position of Jayatilleke merely excluded pa~n~natti from the > tilakkhana, as being ultimately non-existent, that would be one thing. But I > don't think that is what is being said at all by Jayatilleke and Ka;upahana. > I think that what is being said basically is that 'sankhara' means > "dispositions" or "inclinations" in "Sabbe sankhara anicca" and in "Sabbe > sankhara dukkha". I think that what is being excluded includes all of the > khandhas of rupa, vedana, sa~n~na, and vi~n~nana. David Kalupahanaha, for > example, translates 'Sabbe sankhara anicca' as "All dispositions are > impermanent". It is an interesting reading, possibly even the correct one, > but certainly not the usual one. Hi Howard: Thanks for the reference to David Kalupahanaha. I had not read his take on this matter before but the way you characterize his understanding accords with how I understand Jayatilleke's approach. -- Lee 21912 From: Date: Sun May 4, 2003 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] sabbe sankhara dukkha Hi, Lee - In a message dated 5/4/03 9:06:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, leedillion@c... writes: > Hi Howard: > > Thanks for the reference to David Kalupahanaha. I had not read his take > on this matter before but the way you characterize his understanding > accords with how I understand Jayatilleke's approach. > > -- > Lee > ========================= Apologies for my mispelling of Kalupahana's name. Folks should know that the error was mine, not yours. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21913 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 4, 2003 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] sabbe sankhara dukkha Hi Howard (& Lee), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Lee) - > ============================ > If the position of Jayatilleke merely excluded pa~n~natti from > the > tilakkhana, as being ultimately non-existent, that would be one thing. > But I > don't think that is what is being said at all by Jayatilleke and > Ka;upahana. > I think that what is being said basically is that 'sankhara' means > "dispositions" or "inclinations" in "Sabbe sankhara anicca" and in > "Sabbe > sankhara dukkha". I think that what is being excluded includes all of > the > khandhas of rupa, vedana, sa~n~na, and vi~n~nana. ..... In that case it sounds as though ‘sankhara’ as in ‘sabbe sankhara’ is taken to only be referring to sankhara khandha, translated as dispositions. Again, I think one needs to look at the different ways sankhara is used, i.e in khandhas, in referring to all conditioned phenomena and in dependent origination (referring to cetana = kamma), as explained by Nyantiloka clearly. What you suggest he means does sound rather idiosyncratic. ..... >David Kalupahanaha, > for > example, translates 'Sabbe sankhara anicca' as "All dispositions are > impermanent". It is an interesting reading, possibly even the correct > one, > but certainly not the usual one. ..... This is very misleading and I think the texts make it quite clear that in this context, sabbe sankhara refers to all conditioned realities. Thx for your clarification - there’s always a risk of misunderstanding when one just looks at a few lines of what someone has written as I did. Metta, Sarah ===== 21914 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 4, 2003 7:37am Subject: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi All, I gave the editor a few possible topics for my article and he picked "Free Will or Not?". Here is the first draft for your comments (and corrections): Our ancestors did not understand the world around them. Because they did not understand, they created external "Gods" that controlled the weather. These "Gods" could control the weather according to their whims and fancies. Today, we look back and smile at the naïveté of our ancestors. Today, we understand that the weather operates according to impersonal laws of nature. Modern man does not understand the world within himself. Because we do not understand, we create an internal "God" called the "self" that controls the flow of our thoughts. We believe that this self can control the flow of our thoughts according to its whim and fancy. Perhaps some day, our descendants will look back and smile at our naïveté because they understand that the internal world, the world of the mind, also operates according to impersonal laws of nature. The concept of self is deeply rooted within us. A recent book, "Why God Won't Go Away" by Dr. Andrew Newberg and Eugene Aquili, reported on research on how the brain functions. According to this book, information from the senses is routed to a portion of the brain called the "Orientation Association Area" (OAA). The function of the OAA is to put the incoming sensory data into context by overlaying an artificial sense of self. Brain scans show that the OAA is normally a very active part of the brain, there is lots of blood flow in this area. Experiments were done with Franciscan nuns and Buddhist monks. When the nuns and monks reached deep stages of concentration, the blood flow to this portion of the brain was dramatically reduced. At these times, the nuns and monks had less of a sense of "self". When interviewed later, the nuns and monks indicated that at the times that the blood flow to the OAA was dramatically reduced, they were experiencing a "higher reality". Belief in freewill is a belief in self ====================================== Non-self (anattā) is central to Buddhism. The Visuddhi Magga (XVI, 90) says, "For there is suffering, but none who suffers; doing exists although there is no doer; extinction (death) is but no extinguished person; although there is a path, there is no goer." Paraphrasing the Visuddhi Magga, "There is choice, but there is no chooser". If there is no chooser (self), how can there be freewill? The concept of freewill assumes a supervisory self that monitors the mind's activities chooses a response. Why freewill does not make sense ================================ Think of the last time that you were confused about something (reading this article, perhaps?). Does it make sense that there was a "choice born of freewill" to be confused at that moment? What about the last time you were restless… was there a "choice born of freewill" working at that moment? We all know that anger is one letter away from danger. Knowing that anger is bad and dangerous, does it make sense that there was a "choice born of freewill" every time anger arises? Does it make sense that "choice born of freewill" only operates when there is a choice to do something good, but "freewill takes a vacation" whenever there is a choice to do something bad? How does choice work without freewill? ====================================== According to Buddhism, all things except Nibbāna are conditioned. This means that our actions arise because of conditions (not because of a self and freewill). What are the factors that direct choices? There are two: our current situation and our habits (our accumulations or mental tendencies). An idea or a sensory input arises in our mind and our mind reacts naturally according to it's habits. A mind that has a habit of mettā will naturally react to situations with loving kindness. A mind that has a habit of greed will naturally react to situations with craving. What does this mean in daily life? ================================== The flow of our thoughts is directed by our habits; not by a supervisory self. If we can develop and nurture "good habits" in our daily life, our thoughts will be directed accordingly. Habits are developed and nurtured through concentrated repetition. Another word for "concentrated repetition" is "practice". In his article, "Questions on Kamma", Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote about the psychological effect of kamma, "When a willed action is performed it leaves a track in the mind, an imprint which can mark the beginning of a new mental tendency. It has a tendency to repeat itself, to reproduce itself, somewhat like a protozoan, like an amoeba. As these actions multiply, they form our character. Our personality is nothing but a sum of all our willed actions, a cross-section of all our accumulated kamma. So by yielding first in simple ways to the unwholesome impulses of the mind, we build up little by little a greedy character, a hostile character, an aggressive character or a deluded character. On the other hand, by resisting these unwholesome desires we replace them with their opposites, the wholesome qualities. Then we develop a generous character, a loving and a compassionate personality, or we can become wise and enlightened beings. As we change our habits gradually, we change our character, and as we change our character we change our total being, our whole world. That is why the Buddha emphasizes, so strongly the need to be mindful of every action, of every choice. For every choice of ours has a tremendous potential for the future." Formal meditation is one form of "concentrated repetition". Sitting each morning and radiating mettā, develops a habit of mettā in th= e mind. When a mind that has a habit of mettā encounters a difficult situation, the habit of mettā directs the mind to a positive response. Vipasannā meditation develops a habit of seeing things as they truly are; impermanent, unsatisfactory and non-self. Vipassanā meditation develops the habit or perspective of right view, the first step on the Noble Eightfold Path. Imagine that you are driving along and somebody cuts you off. You start to get angry, but then you remember the Dhamma and calm your mind. Was this freewill at work? No. Your past experience of studying the Dhamma created a mental tendency or habit in your mind. When the situation arose, your mental tendency caused the memory of the Dhamma to arise and this calmed your mind. Everything occurred because of an impersonal law of nature, without the need for a self and without the need for freewill. Does the denial of freewill mean that Buddhism is fatalistic or deterministic? ============== In 1927, Werner Heisenberg wrote, "The `path' comes into existence only when we observe it." Heisenberg was one of the founders of modern physics and he was referring to the path of atomic particles such as electrons. Heisenberg was making the point that the classical view of an "objective observer" was wrong. We can say that the `path of our life' does not exist until it is observed. The concepts of "fatalism" or "determinism" are rooted in the self-view that there is an objective observer. If our "subjective observer" perspective makes it impossible for us to determine the future, how can we say that the future is predetermined? Conclusion ========== Belief in freewill is a belief in self. Buddhism denies the existence of self and freewill. Understanding that choices arise naturally because of our habits is an important lesson. The Buddha stressed in the Bhūmija Sutta (Mn126) that results are obtained through proper practice, not through aspiration. Strong aspiration without proper practice will never yield results. Proper practice, with or without strong aspiration, will always yield results. Looking forward to feedback on how to improve the article! Metta, Rob M :-) PS: I know that I am behind on a couple of posts... I will catch up! 21915 From: Date: Sun May 4, 2003 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi, Rob - No doubt any piece of work can be improved. But I am heartily impressed by your article. It is *very* well done! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21916 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2003 11:34am Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, no 5. The Vinaya contains very refined rules for the monks, because the Buddha knew so well the subtlety and the intricacy of cittas. If someone believes that the rules concerning very small matters are not important, it should be recognized that there should be awareness of realities appearing through the six doors also when it concerns small matters, and that not observing these rules may be a condition for more akusala later on. We can discover that there is a great deal of Vinaya in the Suttanta, and we should remember that the aim of both the Vinaya and the Suttanta is the eradication of defilements. The Abhidhamma teaches all realities in detail as well as the conditions for the nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away, which are impermanent. The Abhidhamma helps people to see dhamma as just dhamma, non-self, so that enlightenment can be attained and defilements eradicated. The truth the Buddha taught in the Abhidhamma is not different from what he taught in the Suttanta. Also in the Suttanta the Buddha taught paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. However, here he also used conventional language to explain ultimate truth, according to what was appropriate for the listeners. Thus, we shall see that the three parts of the Tipitaka are in full conformity with each other, in the sense that all three parts comprise the fundamentals of the Abhidhamma. We take all realities for self, we believe that it is ³me² who is walking, sitting or talking. When visible object appears we can learn that it is only a dhamma appearing through the eyes. We are inclined to think for a long time on account of visible object and we conceive it as this or that person. When sati-sampajañña arises, there is no thinking about visible object at the same time; there will be less clinging to the image we conceive or to details. Paññå can understand instantly that it is only a dhamma. By understanding conditioned realities the idea of self can be eliminated. Satipatthåna should be developed naturally. We should not try to ignore concepts, we notice the table, trees and people and we think about them. Also the Buddha noticed people and thought about them, but he had no wrong view. When we notice people and then close our eyes, we still remember an image we have of people. However, no colour appears at that moment, thus, we can understand the difference between the thinking and the seeing of colour or visible object. When we know that people are present, it is thinking. Thinking itself is real, there could not be thinking if there were no citta which thinks. I was reminded that we can begin to consider this now, at the present moment. Only if we consider this time and again, we shall know the difference between realities and concepts. I learnt in Thailand that it is very useful to consider and try to understand the meaning of thinking and of concepts coming up in our life. 21917 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2003 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:discussions and disagreements. Dear smallchap, I like this quote of the padhana sutta, and also I like discussions with you. You should not think that you can be a source of akusala, why? Those are needless fears, this is a discussion forum, and w ecannot all agree. Besides, we can learn from other view points, it causes us to think more carefully about what we said and how we said it, Nina. op 03-05-2003 05:37 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: > I believe that your said the above with all sincerity. Although I > have much to say in return, I choose to remain silent, for I know it > will be a futile effort, and for fear that I can be the source of > much akusala (not referring to you). So I think we can come to an > amicable disagreement. > > While experience can be subjective, I often make reference to this > part of the Padhana Sutta. I know Mara has never take a liking on me. 21918 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2003 11:34am Subject: Perfections, Ch 9, Determinatin, no 5 Perfections, Ch 9, Determinatin, no 5 At the end of that night, in the early morning, the charioteer yoked the chariot and let it remain at the gate. He came to queen Candådeví and said, ³O queen, be not angry with me. I just follow the king¹s command.² Then he carried the prince and came down from the palace. The queen lamented with a loud cry and collapsed. Then the Bodhisatta looked at his mother and thought, ³When I do not speak she will die because of her sorrow, and thus, I would like to speak.² But he refrained from speaking with the thought, ²If I speak, my efforts of sixteen years will have become fruitless. But if I do not speak, it will be to the benefit of myself and my parents.² Then the charioteer lifted him into the chariot, and it went a distance of three leagues and there the end of a forest appeared to the charioteer as if it were a charnel ground. He thought that it was a suitable place and turning the chariot he stopped it by the roadside. He took off all the Bodhisatta¹s ornaments and laid them down. Thereupon he took a spade and began to dig a hole not far from there. When the charioteer Sunanda was digging the hole, the Bodhisatta thought, ³This is my time for effort.² He rose up, rubbed his hands and feet and he thought that he still had strength. He thought that he could come down from the chariot, and so he did. He walked backwards and forwards several times and thought that he had the strength to go even a hundred leagues. He seized the back of the chariot and lifted it up as if it were a toy-cart for children. He reflected, ³If the charioteer would want to harm me, I have enough strength to defend myself.²....... The Bodhisatta taught the Dhamma to the charioteer, saying, ³You are dependent on me, the son of the king. If you bury me in the forest, you will commit evil. It is as if a person who sits or lies in the shade of a tree will not break the branches. Because someone who harms his friend is an evil person. The king is like the tree, I am like the branch, and you, charioteer, are like the traveler who sits in its shade. If you bury me in the forest, you commit an evil deed.² When the charioteer heard this he implored the Bodhisatta to return, because he knew that he was not dumb. The Bodhisatta explained the reason why he did not want to return, and he spoke about his inclination to become a recluse. He explained about his past lives and his fear of the danger of hell. When the charioteer had listened to the Bodhisatta¹s teaching of Dhamma, he wanted to apply it and also become a recluse. Thereupon the Bodhisatta said, ³O, charioteer, take the chariot back and return after you have paid your debts, because a recluse should not have debts, as is the exhortation of all hermits.² Then he sent the charioteer back to the king. The charioteer took the chariot and the ornaments, went to visit the king and informed him of what had happened. The king departed from the city together with the four groups of people who served him, the wetnurses, the citizens and the villagers, in order to visit the Bodhisatta. The Bodhisatta wanted to become a recluse and sat down on a cloth made of branches. He attained the eight attainments and the five supernatural knowledges (abhiññås). He sat down in a hut with great delight in his recluseship. 21919 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2003 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Regulation for all Buddhas but not shared by others' (2) Dear Sarah, I appreciate very much this series. What I copied below: just now on Pali yahoo some doubts about the place of the Jatakas in the teachings arose. This is interesting. Nina. op 02-05-2003 15:24 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > 24) telling a Jataka (-story) when a need had arisen; 21920 From: Date: Sun May 4, 2003 7:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Robert M Really like what you wrote. You're really nailing self-view and freewill IMO. A couple of comments... I believe human (and sentient) actions are primarily based on pleasure and pain. These are the most direct reasons we do what we do. The habits that develop are secondary IMO. The habits form a "general disposition" that have some governing qualities as to how attitudes react to pleasure and pain. These habits develop according to whatever level of insight understands experiences. Poor insight, poor habits and vice versa. Craving and clinging and the primary and secondary level of actions respectively. Craving arises due to feeling. Therefore, feeling is the primary aspect of action. Clinging is closer line with the habits you mention IMO. Virtually every human will avoid pain in a similar fashion. But there will be clinging to various doctrines in different ways due to different habits/insights. Enough of that part. The other thing I would comment on is a tendency to think that in the future we will "think our way out of self-view." (Look back at our ancestors and smile at their ignorance.) I don't think so. In fact it is us that have to look back at our ancestors to try to find the wisdom that we cannot muster on our own. I don't think there will ever be anything on the order of a "group enlightenment." The most enlightened period was probably the time of the Buddha. Any scientific finding that proves no-self is meaningless because the Buddha already did that 2600 years ago. Its the formula of Dependent Origination. "This being, that is....etc." "He who sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma. He who sees the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination." Majjhima Nikaya I believe the key is rigorously applying the Dependent Origination formula to whatever it is you wish to understand. This is also how view of self and free will are expunged. Cya TG P. S. As far as the Gods go...seems just as ludicrous today as it was in the past, maybe even more so considering it seems like people should know better due to better information. However, self-view will probably always generate this type of thinking. 21921 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun May 4, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Dear RobM, I am getting a better understanding of 'accumulations' - and I now begin to see them as a reason for how and why it might be worthwhile encouraging the 'habit' of formal meditation. Do you think it might be worth including a reminder on kamma - i.e. that overcoming or ameliorating a habit of any kind does not wipe away the kammic consequences of those actions by thought word or deed that were previously committed, and may still be being committed. I learned a lot from this article. Thanks Rob. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" 21922 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 4, 2003 6:05pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Do you think it might be worth including a reminder on kamma - i.e. > that overcoming or ameliorating a habit of any kind does not wipe > away the kammic consequences of those actions by thought word or deed > that were previously committed, and may still be being committed. Kamma is such a complex subject; it is probably worth a dedicated article (perhaps even a book :-) ). The point that you have raised is valid and important, however, I don't see it as directly relevant to freewill or self-view. Perhaps I just don't see the link... maybe you can help me out here. Metta, Rob M :-) 21923 From: Date: Sun May 4, 2003 6:12pm Subject: Way 84, Consciousness cont. Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Consciousness, continued Iti ajjhattam = "Thus internally." The bhikkhu lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness by laying hold on the consciousness with lust and so forth when these states of consciousness proceed in his own flux or in another's flux or by laying hold of these conscious states at one time as they proceed in his own flux and at another time as they proceed in another's flux. Samudayavayadhammanupassi = "Contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things." Here, the arising of the aggregate of consciousness should be explained with the pointing out of the origination of consciousness from the origination of ignorance and so forth, in the five ways, according to the method shown in the Section on the Modes of Deportment. And the passing away of consciousness should also be explained in the same way as it is shown in the Section on the Modes of Deportment. From here on there is nothing new in the method of explanation. The mindfulness which lays hold of consciousness is the Truth of Suffering. Thus, the portal of deliverance up to Arahantship of the bhikkhu who lays hold of consciousness as a subject of meditation ought to be understood. [Tika] In the consciousness with lust, lust occurs as a mental concomitant arising and passing away along with a conscious state and sharing with that conscious state the object and basis of consciousness. In this sense of a conscious state well-knit with lust one speaks of the consciousness with lust. The term consciousness without lust is used as a contrary of the term "consciousness with lust"; not as a contradictory. That becomes clear when we know that the work to be done in this contemplation of the mind consists of the laying hold of the things of the three planes of cosmic existence for the purpose of developing the conviction based on insight in regard to cosmic impermanence, cosmic suffering and cosmic insubstantiality. In no stage of mundane thought can it be said that latency of lust is destroyed and so the term "consciousness without lust" indicates only a relatively lust-free conscious state. [T] The grouping of conscious states, here, it is said, may be questioned. For instance, in the two states of consciousness with hate is there just absence of lust because these two states are not well-knit together with lust? Could there not be in them a trace of lust functioning as a distant condition as when a man's lust for a woman produces hate towards another who stands between him and the possession or enjoyment of his object of lust? If there indeed could not be such a trace of lust in these two conscious states of hate, are these seven states of consciousness without lust? When the commentator said that the four remaining karmically bad states do not associate with either the consciousness with lust or without lust, he only wanted to show them just separate from the pair known by the phrases, with lust and without lust. If so then would not one fall into partial knowledge? No. Because of their being included in the pairs (though not in the lust pair.) [T] Consciousness with ignorance is twofold. It is either accompanied by doubt or by agitation. [T] As this consciousness in either of its forms is fit to be called a delusion by way of particularity owing to excessive observation and special endowment with ignorance, these two forms, namely, the one linked to doubt and the one linked to agitation are in an outstanding manner "with ignorance." [T] By reason of the mind proceeding slackly in a shrivelled state owing to want of interest in the object and more or less with displeasure, there is the shrunken state of consciousness. This is a name applicable to the five karmically unwholesome sensuous conscious states not marked by spontaneity. [T] There is the conscious state associated with agitation in the sense of agitation having become powerful in the consciousness. [T] "All karmically bad conscious states are indeed accompanied by agitation." [T] The mental state accompanied by agitation is called the distracted mind because it spreads outside its object by way of diffused thinking. [T] By the ability to suppress the defilements and by the abundance of fruition and by the great length or extent of the series of its particular courses of cognition there is a state of consciousness become great. Or there is a state of consciousness become great by reason of lofty regenerative wish and so forth. [T] The state of consciousness become great is the mind that has reached the ground of the sensuous-ethereal and the purely ethereal planes of existence. [T] As there is nothing in the cosmos greater than the sensuous-ethereal and the purely ethereal the commentator explained the consciousness become great by reference to these two highest planes of existence. [T] The state of consciousness with some other mental state superior to it refers to the consciousness that has not reached the highest possible planes of attainment in cosmic existence or the consciousness that can become more fine; and the state of consciousness with no other mental state superior to it is that which has got to the highest planes of cosmic existence or that which has reached the acme of fineness of mundane states of mind. 21924 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun May 4, 2003 7:20pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Rob, I read the article, thoughts about accumulations and kamma arose and wandered here and there, fingers typed, send button was pressed. Isn't relevant - just disregard. metta, Christine 21925 From: dharmabook2003 Date: Sun May 4, 2003 7:45pm Subject: you won't believe this.. Dear Dharma friends, Engage-Buddhism with 2 clicks of your mouse. Inmeasureable merit for oneself/others by just forwarding it to one person: http://www.dharma.cn Don't believe me, come see for yourself - everything there is absolutely free! (this is another confirmation the true reason why the mightly Internet existed in the first place) :) goldwin 21926 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 4, 2003 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > I believe human (and sentient) actions are primarily based on pleasure and > pain. These are the most direct reasons we do what we do. The habits that > develop are secondary IMO. The habits form a "general disposition" that have > some governing qualities as to how attitudes react to pleasure and pain. > These habits develop according to whatever level of insight understands > experiences. Poor insight, poor habits and vice versa. > > Craving and clinging and the primary and secondary level of actions > respectively. Craving arises due to feeling. Therefore, feeling is the > primary aspect of action. Clinging is closer line with the habits you > mention IMO. > > Virtually every human will avoid pain in a similar fashion. But there will > be clinging to various doctrines in different ways due to different > habits/insights. ===== Interesting... Hmm let me think about this. My perspective is a bit different. Pain and pleasure are only physical, what is important is how pleasant mental feeling (and unpleasant mental feeling arise). I took a stab at this in my message on sanna: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19983 I would be interested in your feedback. ===== > The other thing I would comment on is a tendency to think that in the future > we will "think our way out of self-view." (Look back at our ancestors and > smile at their ignorance.) I don't think so. In fact it is us that have to > look back at our ancestors to try to find the wisdom that we cannot muster on > our own. I don't think there will ever be anything on the order of a "group > enlightenment." > > The most enlightened period was probably the time of the Buddha. Any > scientific finding that proves no-self is meaningless because the Buddha > already did that 2600 years ago. Its the formula of Dependent Origination. > "This being, that is....etc." "He who sees Dependent Origination sees the > Dhamma. He who sees the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination." Majjhima Nikaya > > > I believe the key is rigorously applying the Dependent Origination formula to > whatever it is you wish to understand. This is also how view of self and > free will are expunged. > P. S. As far as the Gods go...seems just as ludicrous today as it was in the > past, maybe even more so considering it seems like people should know better > due to better information. However, self-view will probably always generate > this type of thinking. ===== You are correct. Our decendents are unlikely to escape self-view unless they are close to enlightenment. I will add a comment to the end of that paragraph clarifying this point. Thanks for your input. Metta, Rob M :-) 21927 From: Date: Sun May 4, 2003 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Rob M Did not mean to exclude the mental. Please consider cravings based on mental pleasure and pain included in my intent. I like the line of investigation you are pursuing. TG In a message dated 5/4/2003 8:29:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Interesting... Hmm let me think about this. My perspective is a bit > different. Pain and pleasure are only physical, what is important is > how pleasant mental feeling (and unpleasant mental feeling arise). I > took a stab at this in my message on sanna: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19983 > > I would be interested in your feedback. > 21928 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 4, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > I gave the editor a few possible topics for my article and he > picked "Free Will or Not?". Here is the first draft for your > comments (and corrections): ..... A good *choice* by the editor;-) and thx for giving us all a chance to make life more complicated for you by adding comments;-);-) Pls excuse the following comments in point form and apologies for any that seem too direct. I know you’ll happily ignore anything that you disagree with or ask me to elaborate further. I also have some comments I meant to add on some of your earlier posts, inc. the slide contents, so I hope you don’t mind if I add these too, while I’m writing to you. ***** 1. I also read an article in a newspaper about the book you mention, “Why God Won’t Go Away”. I think as you’ve said elsewhere, one has to be careful about mixing science with dhamma. I’d personally be very sceptical about the greater and lesser sense of “self” recorded in the experiment and any conclusions about experiencing “higher reality” as having any connection with panna and the understanding of paramattha dhammas. Indeed, if it were so simple, there would be no need to hear the Buddha’s Teachings and we could all head for a laboratory instead. 2. I don’t quite agree with the paraphrase you present for the Vism lines;-) 3. Not surprisingly, I like and think you have presented well the paragraph under ‘Why freewill does not make sense” and the last 3 paragraphs in the article, inc. the conclusion and one on “Does the denial.....fatalistic or deterministic?”. 4. You’ve quoted the same paragraph from BB’s article on kamma before and I forget if I responded then or just thought about it;-) In brief, not only here but in other articles/interviews I’ve seen the same comments which are widely held by most Buddhists about ‘changing character’ and ‘as we change our character we change our total being, our whole world.’ He also writes ‘For every choice of ours has a tremendous potential for the future’. Imho, you do your articles and writing a disservice by quoting these comments and the ones about ‘yielding’ and ‘resisting’ etc. To my mind these ideas at least suggest a clinging to states other than those that arise at the present moment, if not a view of freewill and self that can make changes and choices in spite of other comments to the contrary. In the latest installment from the Satipatthana Sutta (Way 84), we read about ‘consciousness with lust’ and ‘...without lust’ and so on. Developing understanding with detachment, as I understand it, means understanding just what is conditioned already at this moment, not changing habits or character. This may seem like nit-picking to many and I know someone will come back and tell me about intention or right effort;-), but I think that the understanding of anatta can only be developed with the understanding of elements and phenomena *just as they are*. The wishing for them to be otherwise is very deep-rooted for us all but but makes it less possible to know the present reality. In the next para. You go on to say that ‘...encounters a difficult situation, the habit of metta....’through formal meditation and ‘concentrated repitition’. Whilst almost everyone here will agree with these sentiments, I believe they emphasise the point I’m trying to make -i.e that clinging to certain states and to self is very deep-rooted. 5. I agreed with TG’s comments about ancestors and self-view. As he said “The most enlightened period was probably the time of the Buddha.” He put it well (and nice to see you around again TG - we’ve missed you;-)) ***** Brief comments on your other posts in a most jumbled, random order - apologies to All for any confusion from the cryptic references: 1. post 21768, classifying cittas I’d remove the word ‘subconscious’ which to many of us suggests an undercurrent. You say “Resultant acts as “subconscious”” which isn’t clear to me. Later you use subconscious to refer to ‘what the mind is doing when it is not doing anything else’, i.e bhavanga cittas. Difficult to translate I know. Either there are bhavanga or other kinds of cittas, so nth subconscious to the way I understand the term. 2. post 21516 on metta I LOVED yr comments on metta in a post to Christine and the reasons you give for signing off in this way. “I believe it makes the world a slightly better place”. I also greatly appreciate not just your words on these fine qualities of metta and dana, but also the confidence and kind acts you are so quick to show without any hesitation. Anumodana. A great inspiration to me. 3. post 21503 to James I agreed with yr comments about accumulations, tendencies, character, personality as saying pretty much the same thing. Trying to establish a separate ‘unique personality’ sounds like another way of trying to incorporate a self. I see this is where you quoted the same piece from BB and the post I had intended to respond to. I also disagreed with your comment that the Buddha attained ‘enlightenment without detailed knowledge of the Abhidhamma’. Another topic in itself;-). 4. post 21708 ‘What is citta?’ I think I have commented before, but will repeat (the stuck record again) that I think it’s very confusing to say ‘citta is pure awareness’. It sounds like a Mahayana definition(!) which doesn’t mean it’s bad but is I think misleading as a way of translating citta in a Theravada context. While we can say all cittas are inherently clear (pandaram), some are most definitely ‘sullied’ by akusuala cetasikas as we discussed before in the ‘luminous citta’ thread. Again, another topic I’ll be happy to discuss further sometime;-) 5. post 21541 ‘character’ of the Abhidhamma neat! 6. post 21592 ‘Why do people study the Abhidhamma’ ‘We start by studying the nature of reality. We follow this with putting the theory into practice......the correct practice will lead us to realization or wisdom’. Let me try rephrasing this: ‘In the first place, there must be the careful consideration and study of the nature of realities. Gradually, understanding of these same realities will develop, leading to insight knowledges. This is what is meant by practice or vipassana bhavana.’ The distinction relates to any misunderstanding about self and doing as discussed at the start of this long, mixed up email! 7. post 21619 ‘Intro to Abhid -slide 1..’ You mentioned that you had heard in an Abh lecture about panna replacing cetana as the “driver” in an arahant. This makes no sense to me as they have completely different functions and so on. Just because there are only kiriya (not kusala or akusala) cittas for the arahant and no ‘driving role’ for cetana (ie no new kamma) does not mean the nature of panna takes on different functions or characteristics as I understand. Interesting theory nonetheless;-) ***** As you know, I greatly appreciate all your contributions and I think the slide series is very helpful here. I hope it hasn’t finished;-) With metta, Sarah ====== 21929 From: Sarah Date: Sun May 4, 2003 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:discussions and disagreements. Hi Smallchap (& Nina), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear smallchap, > I like this quote of the padhana sutta, and also I like discussions with > you. You should not think that you can be a source of akusala, why? > Those > are needless fears, this is a discussion forum, and w ecannot all agree. > Besides, we can learn from other view points, it causes us to think more > carefully about what we said and how we said it, ..... I'd just like to second all Nina's comments here and encourage you to share your comments even when they are in disagreement. We all appreciate your conributions and you do others a favour by raising the points they have in mind as well but possibly cannot articulate as well as you do;-) With metta, Sarah ====== 21930 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 5, 2003 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Regulation for all Buddhas but not shared by others' (2) Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I appreciate very much this series. .... Thank you for your encouragement. I’m also appreciating the latest installments from the Perfections and the account of Temiya, the mute prince. I think these Jataka tales are extraordinarily difficult to really appreciate and this is why many doubt the place of the Jatakas. Like the Vessantara Jataka, the determination and resolution shown by Temiya and the effect on his parents seems so callous. (I hear you, Chris!!). We read the same (briefer) account of the tale in the CariyaPitaka (Basket of Conduct), under ‘the Perfection of Resolute Determination’ as well, however. At the end of the section here we read: “Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I resolutely determined on that itself. Resolutely determining on these factors I lived for sixteen years. there was no one equal to me n resolute determination - this was my perfetion of Resolute Determination (Adhitthanaparamita).” We see throught the accounts of the development of the parami over so many lifetimes (aeons of lifetimes) how hard it is to be a bodhisattva. I also posted the conditions for being a bodhisattva before. Quite different in the Theravada teachings than in other traditions. You picked out: > > 24) telling a Jataka (-story) when a need had arisen; This is a ‘regulation’ (dhammataa) for all Buddhas. The Buddhas always recite the entire ‘Chronicle of Buddhas’, ‘arranged by eon, name, birth and so forth’ whilst walking up and down the Jewel-walk in the sky, surrounded by their relations. The Jatakas were recited as the ‘need had arisen’ (a.t.thuppatti) and in the Madhuratthavilaasini (Clarifier of Sweet Meaning), we also read that the Vessantara Jataka was spoken at this time (i.e immediately following the ‘Chronicle of Buddhas’ and the great storm in which only the Buddha remained untouched. Initially the proud Sakiya relatives had been unable to pay obeisance (see Jataka), so perhaps this was the need that had arisen. We also read in the Introduction to the Jataka Tales (Jatakatthakaha Nidana ‘Buddhist Birth-Stories’, transl by Mrs Rhys Davids) about the story of Mangala, a Bodhisatta who later became the third of 24 Buddhas found there and in the Buddhavamsa. He had an existence which corresponded with the Vessantara account, but in this one, the children were given to a demon who devoured them ‘like a bunch of yams’ with the bodhisatta looking on. The Bodhisatta experienced no sorrow but on the contrary, great joy. The details are even harder and more bloody, but enough said. In a later account (??validity) of future Bodhisattas and Buddhas (“The Birth-Stories of the Ten Bodhisattas and the Dasabodhisattuppattihatha, transl by Saddhatissa, PTS), we also read a similar account under Buddha Tissa (about 7 Buddhas in the future). Btw, Nina, in the Introduction to the Jatakas (above, Mrs Rhys Davids discusses the authenticity question too. She gives detailed reasons for concluding that the Stories are probably older than the verses, suggesting they were handed down in Singhalese and later transl to Pali, whilst the verses were not translated to Singhalese. We may never know the exact historical details, but as RobK has said before, the Jatakas have been an integral part of the teachings from the earliest times. Some of the other regulations (dhammataa) were interesting, such as the taking of meat on the day of parinibbana. I.B.Horner discusses this at length in the introduction and the translation of ‘ma”msarasabhojana’ (meal consisting of a flesh-product) which appears elsewhere and the evidence that ‘suukara-maddava’, the Buddha Gotama’s last meal, should not be translated as ‘truffles’ but as tender ‘maddava’ (flesh or meat) from a boar. Nina, I’m also enjoying the series of discussions in Kraeng Kacang (very glad to be reminded of the topics). Thank you also for the Rahula commentary notes. We see in this sutta that again it is the mindfulness of elements as taken for the body that are taught. As you always repeat, Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma all ‘in full conformity with each other’. Btw, I.B. Horner has a very long into to her transl of “Milinda’s Questions’ (Sacred Books) and discussion on dates. It’s very detailed and technical to quickly summarise here, so I’ll leave it for now, otherwise I may make mistakes. With metta, Sarah P.S. I mentioned Dec to Azita because she had told me that hopefully she and Jill Jordan from Maleny will be in Bkk at that time. I’m expecting my brother in HK for the first ten days of Jan, but otherwise open to possibilities. (Chi NY end Jan/beg Feb would be good for us). These days I don’t take travel plans too seriously;-) ================== 21931 From: robmoult Date: Mon May 5, 2003 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Sarah, I am going to reply in two sections; this section will only talk about the article. The other section will address my slides. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > ***** > 1. I also read an article in a newspaper about the book you mention, "Why > God Won't Go Away". I think as you've said elsewhere, one has to be > careful about mixing science with dhamma. I'd personally be very sceptical > about the greater and lesser sense of "self" recorded in the experiment > and any conclusions about experiencing "higher reality" as having any > connection with panna and the understanding of paramattha dhammas. Indeed, > if it were so simple, there would be no need to hear the Buddha's > Teachings and we could all head for a laboratory instead. ===== My main point is that the sense of self is artificial, the illusion of self is hardwired, but there is the capability through correct practice to overcome this hardwiring. Let me try to tweak a few words to make this point come through more clearly. As of the the idea of heading for a laboratory, I'm not sure that a lobotomy is the fastest route to enlightenment :-) ===== > > 2. I don't quite agree with the paraphrase you present for the Vism > lines;-) ===== Wow! This catches me by surprise. I didn't think that I was pushing the envelope on this one. Help me to understand your concern with my paraphrase. ===== > 4. You've quoted the same paragraph from BB's article on kamma before and > I forget if I responded then or just thought about it;-) > > In brief, not only here but in other articles/interviews I've seen the > same comments which are widely held by most Buddhists about `changing > character' and `as we change our character we change our total being, our > whole world.' He also writes `For every choice of ours has a tremendous > potential for the future'. Imho, you do your articles and writing a > disservice by quoting these comments and the ones about `yielding' and > `resisting' etc. To my mind these ideas at least suggest a clinging to > states other than those that arise at the present moment, if not a view of > freewill and self that can make changes and choices in spite of other > comments to the contrary. > > In the latest installment from the Satipatthana Sutta (Way 84), we read > about `consciousness with lust' and `...without lust' and so on. > Developing understanding with detachment, as I understand it, means > understanding just what is conditioned already at this moment, not > changing habits or character. > > This may seem like nit-picking to many and I know someone will come back > and tell me about intention or right effort;-), but I think that the > understanding of anatta can only be developed with the understanding of > elements and phenomena *just as they are*. The wishing for them to be > otherwise is very deep-rooted for us all but but makes it less possible to > know the present reality. In the next para. You go on to say that > `...encounters a difficult situation, the habit of metta....'through > formal meditation and `concentrated repitition'. Whilst almost everyone > here will agree with these sentiments, I believe they emphasise the point > I'm trying to make -i.e that clinging to certain states and to self is > very deep-rooted. ===== Sorry, Sarah, my first inclination is to stick with the BB quote. Here is why: Why did I volunteer to teach Abhidhamma? I can't deny that there was some mana involved; I thought that I could do a "good job". Why do I work so hard to prepare for my Abhidhamma classes? I can't deny that there is some dosa involved (fear of making a fool of myself). At my current stage of development, I acknowledge that many of my motivations are akusala. I use my understanding of the nature of kusala and akusala to create energy to perform kusala. The Visuddhimagga (XVII, 102) makes it clear that akusala (ignorance) can be a condition for merit. This works in one of two ways; by object condition (it is meritorious to recognize an akusala thought as akusala) and by decisive support condition (when mana motivates one to do good deeds). As I progress along the path of development, at some point, I will be able to leave behind me the mana and dosa that push me to volunteer and prepare for my talks. However, I can't burn that bridge until I have crossed it. At some point, I will have to leave words and concepts behind me. For now, I use them to develop my practice. The Buddha said (Mn22) that we have to be prepared to leave the good states behind at some point. In this sutta, the Buddha likens the good states to be like a raft that carries one from danger to a safe side of the river; after traversing the river, you don't carry the raft with you... you let it go. As I see it, the paragraph that I quoted is not "typical Bhikkhu Bodhi". BB normally writes with an objective "academic" style (I love his stuff). In this specific paragraph, BB seems to be exorting the reader to improve their practice. BB resorts to conventional subjective language in an effort to create conditions supporting kusala energy in the mind of the reader. My objective in writing this article is to educate the intellectual side of the reader, but also to exort the reader to improve their practice (metta, dana, vipassana, whatever practice that they have accumulations for). In fact, this is an underlying motive in my class; I try to educate and try to inspire. When educating, I tend to use objective language. When inspiring, I tend to use subjective language. ===== > > 5. I agreed with TG's comments about ancestors and self-view. As he said > "The most enlightened period was probably the time of the Buddha." He put > it well (and nice to see you around again TG - we've missed you;-)) ===== I also agree with TG and will insert a parenthetical clause at the end of that paragraph. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Stay tuned for my reply to the other points on my slides. 21932 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 5, 2003 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mana and other akusala Hi Yasa, (Sukin, Mike, KenH), You (Yasa) wrote such a clear and helpful post on mana. I meant to add a few more comments. I’ve snipped almost all of it now, but particularly appreciated the way you set it out and the helpful quotes. Just a few brief comments: --- yasalalaka wrote: > >It can be very subtle, such that one will not know it is > mana, that caused your reaction. It also comes from judging others, > and putting them into frames . .... A good reminder. I think it is rooted in attachment btw. ..... > According to scriptures, "a prominent aspect of conceit is stiffness > and rigidity. One''s mind feels stiff and bloated, like a python > that has just swallowed some other creature. This aspect of mana is > also reflected as tension in the body and posture. Its victims get > big-headed and a thus may find it difficult to bow respectfully to > others. It, destroys gratitude, making it difficult to acknowledge > that one owes any kind of debt to another person…..one also actively > conceals the virtues of others so that no one will hold them in > esteem." (In this Very Life by Sayadaw U Pandita). ..... I found these reminders very helpful. “One''s mind feels stiff and bloated, like a python that has just swallowed some other creature.” I’m sure we are all familiar with this. “Its victims get big-headed and a thus may find it difficult to bow respectfully to others”. I just mentioned that in the introduction to the Vessantara Jataka it mentions about the relatives of the Buddha who found it difficult to pay respect. We also read many accounts in the texts about those who found it difficult to hear the teachings because of mana, such as the monks who listened to the Mulapariyaya Sutta. We all miss many opportunities for the same reason, I’m sure. “It, destroys gratitude,..” I had considered this aspect of mana, but it’s very true. When there’s pride and haughtiness, there’s no gratitude. ..... > " > Arahatta Suttam (A.vi.49) > > Cha, bhikkhave, dhamma appahäya abhabbo arahattam sacchikätum. Katame > cha? Mänam, omänam, atimänam, adhimänam, thambham, atinipätam. ...... > Bhikkhus, without dispelling six things it is not possible to realize > worthiness. What six? Pride, flying high, conceit, undue estimation > of oneself, unyielding nature and falling low. ..... Apologies for the snipping here - great quote and the pali terms are good. It also reminds me of Mike’s good examples and quotes on mudutaa (malleability) which ‘has the characteristic of the subsiding of rigidity (thambha).....its function is to crush rigidity. I notice that thambha is exactly the term used in your quote for unyielding nature and I think it also relates to Lee’s comments. (Ken H, I think Mike may have a good point with regard to non-posting - especially when one knows that the post is motivated by akusala cittas - it may be wholesome restraint rather than mana that stops one pressing the send button. None of us can know for you - we can only encourage you!!) Most helpful of all, I think, is to know these various states as conditioned dhammas - not MR or MY faults or anything to catch. Sukin asked about dosa and uddhacca (restlessness) with regard to mana. man as I understand is also prompted by attachment - attachment to ‘self-advertisement’, finding oneself important, but not at the same time as any wrong view of self. Mana and sakkaya ditthi (wrong view of self) are quite distinct. Uddhacca, on the other hand, arises with every kind of akusala (unwholesomeness)and is quite different from what we understand conventionally in your reading example. You may be the fastest, smartest reader but with even more akusala and thereby uddhacca arising. It accompanies mana and wrong view - no calm at those moments, regardless of the activity. I think also that whatever kind of mana it is is imaterial - they all reflect the clinging and importance given to oneself and the thinking about ME! It may seem to last a few hours as Sukin suggested (!), but as he knows, it actually just lasts a moment;-) In between there are so many other moments of seeing, hearing, aversion, generosity, ignorance, bhavanga cittas and so on. Wishing for it to decrease and trying to devise strategies to this end merely reflects more clinging to self, I think. Better just to see the value in developing understanding and detachment and leave its arising to conditions (no choice anyway). Carefully considering and reflecting on all dhammas like this is the way, I’m sure, that wholesome states develop. I think there’s a difference between ‘seeing the danger in the slightest faults’ and wishing to have less akusala or to have a change of character. What do you think? You also mentioned other questions. They are very helpful for us all to reflect on, Sukin. Btw, it’s not my habit to be very restrained in my comments to you or anyone on DSG. I seldom comment on your posts to others because I usually agree with what you write and have been greatly appreciating what you’ve been writing and kind tone recently. You’ve been having some very interesting discussions with these guys and Jeff and I’m sure everyone would like to encourage you to continue, whether they agree with your points or not. Thx again to Yasa and all. Metta, Sarah ======== 21933 From: robmoult Date: Mon May 5, 2003 2:17am Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 31-38 for comment Cittas in a "Thought Process" Slide Contents ============== Life-Continuum ("Subconscious"): Beautiful Resultant Citta Adverting / Eye-Consciousness / Receiving / Investigating / Determining (What We Experience): Rootless Resultant Cittas (slightly simplified) Javana (Creating Kamma): Unwholesome or Wholesome Registration (Link to Next Thought): Rootless Resultant Cittas Speaker Notes ============= Let us go through the stages of a thought process, according to the Abhidhamma. Between thought processes, the mind is in a "subconscious state". As mentioned in the previous slide, for humans, this is beautiful resultant mental state. When a visible object impinges on the eye, there are a number of mental states that arise in succession. These are rootless resultant mental states. These mental states do not create kamma, they are the result of some past kamma. Next are the javana mental states; these are the mental states that create unwholesome or wholesome kamma. The javana mental states are the active part of the thought process. This is where emotions arise. Finally, there are some registration cittas to provide continuity of the process with the next thought process. Under the Mango Tree Slide Contents ============== At the foot of a mango tree, a man is sleeping with his head covered. Wind strikes the tree. Branches sway with the wind. A fruit falls beside the sleeping man. ("Subconscious") The man awakes. The man removes his head covering. The man picks up the fruit. The man inspects the fruit. The man understands that this is a fruit with certain qualities. (What we Experience) The man eats the fruit. (Creating Kamma; action) The man notes the aftertaste. (Link to Next Thought) Speaker Notes ============= The commentary gives an analogy of how the thought process works. "Subconscious": The sleeping man is the subconscious mind. What we Experience: This is the stage when the mind takes in an object presented to it and decides what to do. Creating Kamma: This is the active portion of the thought process. Link to Next Thought: Finally the registration portion. 21934 From: yasalalaka Date: Mon May 5, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > I gave the editor a few possible topics for my article and he > picked "Free Will or Not?". Here is the first draft for your > comments (and corrections): > > > Our ancestors did not understand the world around them. Because they > did not understand, they created external "Gods" that controlled the > weather. These "Gods" could control the weather according to their > whims and fancies. Today, we look back and smile at the naïveté of > our ancestors. Today, we understand that the weather operates > according to impersonal laws of nature. > > Modern man does not understand the world within himself. Because we > do not understand, we create an internal "God" called the "self" > that controls the flow of our thoughts. We believe that this self > can control the flow of our thoughts according to its whim and > fancy. Perhaps some day, our descendants will look back and smile at > our naïveté because they understand that the internal world, the > world of the mind, also operates according to impersonal laws of > nature. > > The concept of self is deeply rooted within us. A recent book, "Why > God Won't Go Away" by Dr. Andrew Newberg and Eugene Aquili, reported > on research on how the brain functions. According to this book, > information from the senses is routed to a portion of the brain > called the "Orientation Association Area" (OAA). The function of the > OAA is to put the incoming sensory data into context by overlaying > an artificial sense of self. Brain scans show that the OAA is > normally a very active part of the brain, there is lots of blood > flow in this area. Experiments were done with Franciscan nuns and > Buddhist monks. When the nuns and monks reached deep stages of > concentration, the blood flow to this portion of the brain was > dramatically reduced. At these times, the nuns and monks had less of > a sense of "self". When interviewed later, the nuns and monks > indicated that at the times that the blood flow to the OAA was > dramatically reduced, they were experiencing a "higher reality". > > Belief in freewill is a belief in self > ====================================== > Non-self (anattā) is central to Buddhism. The Visuddhi Magga (XVI, > 90) says, "For there is suffering, but none who suffers; doing > exists although there is no doer; extinction (death) is but no > extinguished person; although there is a path, there is no goer." > > Paraphrasing the Visuddhi Magga, "There is choice, but there is no > chooser". If there is no chooser (self), how can there be freewill? > The concept of freewill assumes a supervisory self that monitors the > mind's activities chooses a response. > > Why freewill does not make sense > ================================ > Think of the last time that you were confused about something > (reading this article, perhaps?). Does it make sense that there was > a "choice born of freewill" to be confused at that moment? What > about the last time you were restless… was there a "choice born of > freewill" working at that moment? We all know that anger is one > letter away from danger. Knowing that anger is bad and dangerous, > does it make sense that there was a "choice born of freewill" every > time anger arises? Does it make sense that "choice born of freewill" > only operates when there is a choice to do something good, > but "freewill takes a vacation" whenever there is a choice to do > something bad? > > How does choice work without freewill? > ====================================== > According to Buddhism, all things except Nibbāna are conditioned. > This means that our actions arise because of conditions (not because > of a self and freewill). What are the factors that direct choices? > There are two: our current situation and our habits (our > accumulations or mental tendencies). > > An idea or a sensory input arises in our mind and our mind reacts > naturally according to it's habits. A mind that has a habit of mettā > will naturally react to situations with loving kindness. A mind that > has a habit of greed will naturally react to situations with > craving. > > What does this mean in daily life? > ================================== > The flow of our thoughts is directed by our habits; not by a > supervisory self. If we can develop and nurture "good habits" in our > daily life, our thoughts will be directed accordingly. Habits are > developed and nurtured through concentrated repetition. Another word > for "concentrated repetition" is "practice". > > In his article, "Questions on Kamma", Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote about the > psychological effect of kamma, "When a willed action is performed it > leaves a track in the mind, an imprint which can mark the beginning > of a new mental tendency. It has a tendency to repeat itself, to > reproduce itself, somewhat like a protozoan, like an amoeba. As > these actions multiply, they form our character. Our personality is > nothing but a sum of all our willed actions, a cross-section of all > our accumulated kamma. So by yielding first in simple ways to the > unwholesome impulses of the mind, we build up little by little a > greedy character, a hostile character, an aggressive character or a > deluded character. On the other hand, by resisting these unwholesome > desires we replace them with their opposites, the wholesome > qualities. Then we develop a generous character, a loving and a > compassionate personality, or we can become wise and enlightened > beings. As we change our habits gradually, we change our character, > and as we change our character we change our total being, our whole > world. That is why the Buddha emphasizes, so strongly the need to be > mindful of every action, of every choice. For every choice of ours > has a tremendous potential for the future." > > Formal meditation is one form of "concentrated repetition". Sitting > each morning and radiating mettā, develops a habit of mettā in th= > e > mind. When a mind that has a habit of mettā encounters a difficult > situation, the habit of mettā directs the mind to a positive > response. Vipasannā meditation develops a habit of seeing things as > they truly are; impermanent, unsatisfactory and non-self. Vipassanā > meditation develops the habit or perspective of right view, the > first step on the Noble Eightfold Path. > > Imagine that you are driving along and somebody cuts you off. You > start to get angry, but then you remember the Dhamma and calm your > mind. Was this freewill at work? No. Your past experience of > studying the Dhamma created a mental tendency or habit in your mind. > When the situation arose, your mental tendency caused the memory of > the Dhamma to arise and this calmed your mind. Everything occurred > because of an impersonal law of nature, without the need for a self > and without the need for freewill. > > Does the denial of freewill mean that Buddhism is fatalistic or > deterministic? > ============== > In 1927, Werner Heisenberg wrote, "The `path' comes into existence > only when we observe it." Heisenberg was one of the founders of > modern physics and he was referring to the path of atomic particles > such as electrons. Heisenberg was making the point that the > classical view of an "objective observer" was wrong. We can say that > the `path of our life' does not exist until it is observed. The > concepts of "fatalism" or "determinism" are rooted in the self-view > that there is an objective observer. If our "subjective observer" > perspective makes it impossible for us to determine the future, how > can we say that the future is predetermined? > > Conclusion > ========== > Belief in freewill is a belief in self. Buddhism denies the > existence of self and freewill. Understanding that choices arise > naturally because of our habits is an important lesson. The Buddha > stressed in the Bhūmija Sutta (Mn126) that results are obtained > through proper practice, not through aspiration. Strong aspiration > without proper practice will never yield results. Proper practice, > with or without strong aspiration, will always yield results. > > > > Looking forward to feedback on how to improve the article! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > PS: I know that I am behind on a couple of posts... I will catch up! RobM, This is a good article. I specially like your references to modern writers than to the Suttas and teachings, as you are writing to an uninitiated public. But if I were to make a suggestion it would be to the sentence...."we create an internal "God" called the "self" that controls the flow of our thoughts."...as concept of God in the Christian mind is different,it indicates the creater, to get away from that concept, you may perhaps say "..We create an internal "soul", a "self" taht controls....etc." with metta, Yasa 21935 From: robmoult Date: Mon May 5, 2003 2:31am Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Yasa, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" > This is a good article. I specially like your references to modern > writers than to the Suttas and teachings, as you are writing to an > uninitiated public. > But if I were to make a suggestion it would be to the > sentence...."we create an internal "God" called the "self" > that controls the flow of our thoughts."...as concept of God in the > Christian mind is different,it indicates the creater, to get away > from that concept, you may perhaps say "..We create an > internal "soul", a "self" taht controls....etc." Sorry, I should have clarified that this magazine is only aimed at Buddhists, but it caters to all three traditions; Theravada, Mahayana and Vajarana. Metta, Rob M :-) 21936 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon May 5, 2003 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Addressing a Bhikkhuni Dear Group, I attended a talk by Bhikkhuni Kusuma this evening - partly to hear the lecture which was on Vipassana, and partly to see a Bhikkhuni. The audience consisted of about 80% Sri Lankan ex-pats, and an assorted representation from the rest of the world. It was interesting, in the light of the Restoration of the Bhikkhuni Sangha controversy, to see the respect the Sri Lankans present paid to the Bhikkhuni. I didn't get to speak to her as the line-up of people, some on their knees, waiting to talk to her was just too long. The talk was fairly standard, and due to time limitations (one hour), she spoke only on contemplation of the body, and contemplation of feelings. She clearly favours samatha-vipassana practice, and emphasised the need to put the road map (theory) into practice. Anyone in Oz who can get to Byron Bay and wishes to attend a day long meditation on mindfulness at the Community Centre with Bhikkhuni Kusuma on Saturday, May 10, please contact me off-list for details on: cforsyth@v... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > > > I will be attending a lecture on Monday on Vipassana given by > > Bhikkhuni Kusuma. > > I would like to know how one addresses a Bhikkhuni? > ..... > I expect by now you have met her and she'll have clarified the appropriate > address. Probably I'd have addressed her as Ven Kusuma unless informed > otherwise. > > I'd be glad to hear about the lecture, your impressions and conclusions if > you'd care to share more. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > > > > "Bhikkhuni Kusuma is a fully ordained nun in the Theravada > > tradition. This caused much controversy which is still not resolved > > today. The ordination of women in the Theravada tradition was > > brought to Sri Lanka in the third century BC by Ven Sanghamitta. 21937 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 5, 2003 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasa, I have another post you wrote a few days ago to me. --- yasalalaka wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, and all, > > Thank you for those words, Sarah. It really takes a burden off me. > I was hesitant to make my post, not really knowing how it would be > received. ..... I’m sure we’re all appreciating your posts. Any hesitation on Sukin’s part will only have been concern of causing distress or akusala in others on the topic of meditation. It can be a sensitive issue when it relates to ‘practice’. ..... > Some people have what is called khanika samadhi (momentary > concentration). They can get into a state of Samadhi immediately. ..... I understand there to be khanika samadhi or ekaggata cetasika at each moment and with each citta. It can be wholesome or unwholesome as can highly developed concentration. ..... > That is called a (bhava puruddha) training we have had in previous > lives, manifesting in this life. The Buddha is of course special, he > had his khanika samadhi when he was still a baby ! But one who > practices meditation and is able to place the mind on the in and out > breath for a long period of time without any thoughts arising, can > from time to time stop what ever he is doing and place his mind on > the breath and get into a state of samadhi for a few minutes or > seconds. That is also momentary samadhi. ..... Leaving aside the ‘momentary samadhi’ definition, does this not sound like a self practising meditation? Also, why and in what way is the stopping of thoughts kusala (wholesome)? In other words, how can you be sure that these states or this concentration is skilful? What is the aim? ..... > > One can practice samatha meditation with any arammana. The in and out > breath, the rising and falling of the stomac, or any one of the > kasina. That is merely to arrive at one pointed concentration to > purify the mind before sitting for vipassana. In and out breath was > the Buddha's object of concentration, and suits all persons of any > character. ..... Are you sure this is what it says in the texts, i.e ‘any arammana’, ‘stomach..’, ‘all persons..’?? ..... >... You will see citta accompanied with lobha, > dosa and moha. You will see how objects come in contact with sense > doors (passa), how citta arises and become aware of an object..... > To be mindful is important, but you will have to make things happen, > and that is where the right effort comes in. I will stop here, > before the post becomes too long and unwieldy. ..... I know that we have to use ‘you’ and ‘I’ conventionally, but in these comments it sounds like there is an idea of self seeing, making things happen and so on. I don’t understand the characteristic of right effort being to ‘make things happen’ or to change them from what they are already. Again, they are subtle points and there have been many discussions on this topic on DSG. I think they lie at the root of why some feel the need to ‘do’ a practice and others see practice in terms of understanding without a special ‘doing’. It also relates to questions about what is meant by ‘meditation’ in the teachings. In an old post to Nina you mentioned being aware of the arammana ‘without the ‘disturbance’ of activities outside it’. You also mentioned in that post ‘directing’ the mind to listen to the sound and so on. I think this all suggests an idea of ‘selection’ in practice, an idea that the present arammana appearing at this moment is adequate for sati to take as object or that another object or time would be more appropriate. Perhaps it also suggests an idea that arammanas can be controlled in some way which I think is not in line with what we learn about conditioned phenomena and anatta. We have an idea that this may be simpler or less complex, but perhaps at that moment of thinking in that way, thinking can be the object of awareness. In other words, there only ever is this moment and the namas and rupas arising and falling away now whether we’re here or there. If there is the idea that when we’re washing dishes or shopping or typing that it’s not ‘ideal’ for sati, it’s just a kind of thinking at that moment which is erroneous in that any dhammas at any time are just as ‘real’ as at any other time. Whether we mention conditional dependence or Abhidhamma or any other ‘terms’, we can see that the Teachings are only ever about presently arising realities. I know that there are many comments here you may not agree with;-) Yasa, I also wished to thank you in that earlier post (to Nina) for telling us more about yourself. Many of us were briefly in Kandy last year, on a trip of the holy places in Sri Lanka. Jon and I also met in Sri Lanka;-) Your dhamma study and practice is the best retirement. Anumodana. We look forward to following your example. With metta, Sarah ===== 21938 From: connie Date: Mon May 5, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - (and sankhara) How does cetana fit into javana, Rob? Christine, my thoughts have been tangled around the sankhara thread and thinking about will and kamma for days and I appreciated your fingers just typing. More definitions for you, Sarah. Sankhara, noun. From verb karoti (to build, do, produce) and prefix sam (together, with). Rune Johansson gives (among others): habitual tendency, effort, construction, accumulation, propensity, complex, trouble, kammic residue, activity and aspiration. Nanavira says 'determination' or 'something that something else depends on'. Buddha says: "And what, Bhikkhus, are sankhara? There are these six types of intention (sancetana): intention regarding forms ...sounds ...scents ...tastes ...touches ...(mental) phenomena. These are called 'creations'(sankhara)". "They create created form into its present state [rupam rupattaya sankhatam abhisankharonti]; ...created sensation into its present state; ...created recognition into its present state; ... created creations into its present state; ... they create created consciousness into its present state. Therefore they are called 'creations' [sankhara]." Avijja paccaya sankhara / Ignorance conditions formations. The 50 cetasikas (patterned, habitualized) called mental formation (sankhara) or volition (cetana - 'will', or not) [can we just pick one of the 50 out like that?] would be the ethical or responsible component as opposed to the vedana/sensation and sanna/perception cetasikas. [Even though this falls apart when Sariputta tells Maha-kotthita that "Sensation, recognition and consciousness, Friend, are united, not separate, and it is not possible to distinguish any difference between them, even after repeatedly sifting through them."] This (kamma) conditions psychic activity, ensuring constant motion and arising... our intention to continue has been formed. constant motion? Clinging/Upadana (that by means of which an active process is kept going... 'taking'... and what conditions becoming/bhava) is the support. motion? Asava (that which flows, intoxicant, taint). Will is stuck in the current (moha), whether it's toward (lobha) or away from (dosa) and therefore there is not free will as long as there is (like it or not) kilesa/defilement... from verb kilissati, to adhere. And once there is no kilesa? No new kamma, but still the old stuff to get unstuck/play out... still not free? Maybe the question is more along the lines of are we still knotted to will rather than free will or not. Sanna/Perception/Recognition/Naming: negative kamma labels things negatively. Kammic vision as opposed to Stainless... so even 'good' kamma is a stain? [Say it taint so... we live intent (willingly) until we're truly homeless]. "Just as a fish in a net, a frog in a snake's jaws, a jungle fowl shut into a cage, ... -- just as these are desirous of being delivered, of finding an escape from these things, so too this meditator's mind is desirous of being delivered from the whole field of formations and escaping from it." Vism. XXI. 46. Ñanamoli, p. 760. motion. Processes, not objects. The khandhas are (identity in) processes. "And if, Bhikkhus, one does not intend, determine or have something dormant in one's mind, there is no object for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is no object, there is no support for consciousness. When there is no support and growth for consciousness, no further becoming is produced in the future. When further becoming is not produced in the future, future birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering." peace, connie 21939 From: Krop Date: Mon May 5, 2003 7:29am Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! I'd like to see where in the suttas does the Buddha make any metaphysical assertion about the existence or not existence of self. Not-self is an strategy for release. 21940 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 5, 2003 7:38am Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Rob M and all, Interesting post! I am interested to learn more about what the Buddha taught about making choices in one's action, namely, bodily action, speech, and mind. Your feedback is welcome and appreciated. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, [snip] > Looking forward to feedback on how to improve the article! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) [snip] 21941 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 5, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Significance of the 5 aggregates Victor Sorry for not being more specific. The reference 'S. V.' stands for ch. 5 of the Samyutta Nikaya. My text was taken from the entry for 'Khandha' in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/khandha.htm There are also 2 versions on ATI (translations by Bh. Bodhi, Bh. Thanissaro): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn05-010a.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn05-010.html Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks again for the reply! > > I wonder what S. V. stands for and if there is some online > reference > that I can check. > > Thanks, > Victor > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: ... > > This statement of mine was an attempt at paraphrasing a passage > from > > S. V. 10. Here it is again, with a revised paraphrase: > > > > <<< > > (a) When all constituent parts are there, > > The designation 'cart' is used; > > (b) Just so, where the five groups exist, > > Of 'living being' do we speak. > > >>> > > > > Paraphrase: > > (a) When certain constituent parts are in place, we designate > that > > particular combination of parts as a 'cart'. > > (b) Likewise, when all five aggregates exist, we call that > particular > > combination a 'living being' (i.e., a 'person', 'animal' etc). > > > > I think the statement at (b) can also be expressed as in my > earlier > > post, namely, "What we speak of as a person is in reality nothing > > more than the five groups." 21942 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 5, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Krop, I have not found that the Buddha made any assertion about the existence or non-existence of self in the discourses, and I think the following links are two useful references to what you said "Not- self is an strategy for release." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself2.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself.html Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Krop" wrote: > > I'd like to see where in the suttas does the Buddha make any > metaphysical assertion about the existence or not existence of self. > Not-self is an strategy for release. 21943 From: dwlemen Date: Mon May 5, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Rob & Sarah, I'm still very much a novice compared to so many of you on this list, but I thought I might throw out my $0.02 for consideration or deleting! First, Rob, I really like the article. As someone who doesn't know the Sutta's and doesn't speak Pali, I found it very clear, which is quite a feat, considering the topic. For what it's worth, I've always thought of our actions and "free will" as a ongoing process of probabilities. Something similiar to predicting the weather. When I watch the news, I hear that, because of this and that condition, there's a probability of rain or sun. Sometimes they are right, but other times, other factors play out and the weather goes the other way (as it did yesterday much to our children's disappointment!). I've noticed that people too can be predicted. We do like to have this concept of self and free will, but yet, we mostly act according to predictable criteria. And, as you pointed out in physics, the act of observing a particle changes it, so does the act of observing a self. It too becomes a variable in the calculation and throws the probabilities all off! And Sarah... You wrote: > ***** > 1. I also read an article in a newspaper about the book you mention, "Why > God Won't Go Away". I think as you've said elsewhere, one has to be > careful about mixing science with dhamma. I'd personally be very sceptical > about the greater and lesser sense of "self" recorded in the experiment > and any conclusions about experiencing "higher reality" as having any > connection with panna and the understanding of paramattha dhammas. Indeed, > if it were so simple, there would be no need to hear the Buddha's > Teachings and we could all head for a laboratory instead. > Perhaps it is the computer geek-ness in me, but as a big fan of science, I think it can show us some underlying factors. This "me" is, like it or not, tied to this phycial body, complete with hormones, neurological traits, etc. I think that we can learn a lot from the scientific study of meditation. I don't think we'll ever get to an "Enlightenment Pill" because the complexities are too ... well... complex. Just like we will never be able to predict the weather with 100% accuracy, let alone control it. The physical properties of the brain and our consciousness are clearly entertwined. As such, I think we can learn a lot from the scientific study of the workings of the brain. I like to think of this type of research as helping in the understanding of the impermanence or "no-self." All that said, I also think the Buddha was quite appropriate in including the prohibition of intoxicants (which I would consider consciousness altering chemicals to be a part) in his 5 Precepts. While, perhaps we could chemically alter the brain to reproduce that of those monks Rob mentioned, the person under this drug would not have the patterns set up to deal with the condition in the right way and therfore, the probabilities are that they would not become Enlightened, but, perhaps psychotic! There are too many variables to control, again, kind of like the weather. Anyway, I don't know if any of this is helpful or not. But, here it is none the less! Peace, Dave 21944 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2003 10:21am Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, no 6. Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, no 6. We learn through the Abhidhamma that one citta arises at a time and that it experiences only one object at a time. We can verify this ourselves. What appears is only a reality, a dhamma. We can ask ourselves at the moment of seeing whether we have any idea that there are people around us. When we see or hear, we do not think of people, because at the moment of seeing, only visible object is experienced, there is only the world of visible object. At the moment of hearing there is only the world of sound. We can come to understand that what appears is an element, that it is not a person and that it does not belong to anyone. Time and again objects impinge on the senses and on account of them we think of people and the things around us, of the world. However, when we are fast asleep, there are no cittas arising in processes that experience objects through one of the six doors. However, there has to be citta, otherwise we would not be alive. At such moments there are cittas called life-continuum, bhavanga-cittas; they have as function to maintain the continuity in the life of a particular person. At such moments the world does not appear, we are not thinking of people, we even do not know who we are and where we are. Only when cittas arise in different processes, there is again seeing and thinking of what we see: the world appears [1]. If there were no citta which thinks, there would not be any concepts, no world. We experience pleasant objects and unpleasant objects and we are inclined to think about them for a long time with akusala citta. We think of people and we worry about them. When we were walking with Acharn Sujin in the garden and we were looking at the young Mango trees, Lodewijk and I spoke to her about the problems we have with my father. Acharn Sujin gave us valuable advice about the way to cope with our problems in daily life. She said: ³Whatever appears now, one should remember that it is because of conditions. Nobody can do anything, you cannot change a particular thought to another one. You cannot change seeing right now to the experience of another object. When you understand this, you do not go away from the present object. When you understand that it is conditioned in this way you do not think, why does this unpleasant event happen to me. It is useless to cry over it or think more about it.² When I told her that I was worrying about someone else, she said: ³If you worry about him, there is him in the thinking, and it is very difficult to get rid of the idea of belonging. Everything belongs to us: seeing, thinking, the story we think of. When you see him, what can you do for him? After that, forget everything. There is no connection with the story of yesterday, last year, two years ago. Clinging to self is a danger, it brings ever more akusala.² Footnote: 1. Seeing arises in a series or process of cittas, the eye-door process. Seeing only sees, but the other cittas in that process which perform each their own function also experience visible object. There are sense-door processes of cittas and mind-door processes of cittas. Bhavangacittas do not arise in a process of cittas that experience an object through one of the six doorways. They arise when we are fast asleep and not dreaming, and also in between the different processes of cittas. 21945 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 5, 2003 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Significance of the 5 aggregates Hi Jon, Thanks providing the references!! I read the discourse and found that what you quoted is a response to Mara's questions. "By whom has this being been created? Where is the maker of the being? Where has the being arisen? Where does the being cease?" As I understand it, Mara's questions are based on the assumption "what being is"/"what self is". I will try to comment Vajira's reply as I understand it in context: "Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view? I note that first Vajira replied Mara's questions with two counter- questions, indicating that the questions sprang out of assumption. This is a heap of sheer constructions: Here no being is found. Since this heap of sheer construction is not self, no being can be found there. Note that Vajira did not claim/assert that there is no being. Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, Note that Vajira did not assert that chariot is an assemblage of parts, nor did she assert that the word 'chariot' refers to an assemblage of parts, nor did she claim that there is no chariot. So, when the aggregates are present, There's the convention 'a being.' Likewise, Vajira did not assert that a being is a compositition/assemblage of the five aggregates, nor did she assert that the convention 'a being' refers to a compositition/assemblage of the five aggregates, nor did she claim that there is no being. It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases." This is a response to Mara's questions "Where has the being arisen? Where does the being cease?" Mara's questions were in itself wrongly phrased and stemmed from assumption. This is how I understand it. Thanks again for the references. Your feedback is appreciated!! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > Sorry for not being more specific. > > The reference 'S. V.' stands for ch. 5 of the Samyutta Nikaya. > > My text was taken from the entry for 'Khandha' in Nyanatiloka's > Buddhist Dictionary: > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/khandha.htm > > There are also 2 versions on ATI (translations by Bh. Bodhi, Bh. > Thanissaro): > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn05-010a.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn05-010.html > > Jon 21946 From: Date: Mon May 5, 2003 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Krop If by metaphyisical you are questioning whether the Buddha makes the broad assertion in the suttas that all phenomena are not self...then the answer is yes. No-self is a real state of affairs and not just an expedient. (Since everything that arises does so conditioned by something else, how can anything be a self?) I consider no-self more of a pragmatic assertion as opposed to metaphyisical. The Buddha states that there is no-self hundreds if not thousands of times in the suttas. The references are replete throughout the suttas and are there available for study. The references are so clear and frequent I hesitate to mention any single one in fear of diminishing the magnitude of the teaching of no-self, but I will anyway. From the Samyutta Nikaya (Connected Discourses of the Buddha pg. 1394)...Buddha talking to Ananda... "If, Ananda, when I was asked by the wanderer Vacchagotta, 'Is there a self?' I had answered, 'There is a self,' would this have been consistent on my part with the arising of the knowledge that 'All PHENOMENA ARE NONSELF'?" "No, venerable sir." "And if, when I was asked by him, 'Is there no self?' I had answered, 'There is no self,' the wanderer Vacchagotta, already confused, would have fallen into even greater confusion, thinking, 'It seems that the self I formerly had does not exist now." end quote. We operate as if we are a self and all our perceptions are tied into that outlook. Its very hard to find an avenue to get out of that perceptive framework. This is the difficulty of understanding the Buddha's teaching. The difficulty is in trying to develop insight powerful enough to see past the way the mind mis-perceives experiences. Once this insight is developed, then one can start down the Path of the Buddha's teaching. Until this insight arises, one cannot even see the Path. TG In a message dated 5/5/2003 7:30:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, krop83@h... writes: > I'd like to see where in the suttas does the Buddha make any > metaphysical assertion about the existence or not existence of self. > Not-self is an strategy for release. > 21947 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 5, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Rob M and all, A comment I would make is that the existence or non-existence of self and freewill is irrelevant to the Buddha's teaching. I would say that each one of us can choose between skillful/wholesome action and unskillful/unwholesome action, and each action that one chooses has a consequence. Again, interesting post!! And your feedback is welcome!! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, [snip] > Belief in freewill is a belief in self. Buddhism denies the > existence of self and freewill. Understanding that choices arise > naturally because of our habits is an important lesson. The Buddha > stressed in the Bhūmija Sutta (Mn126) that results are obtained > through proper practice, not through aspiration. Strong aspiration > without proper practice will never yield results. Proper practice, > with or without strong aspiration, will always yield results. > > > > Looking forward to feedback on how to improve the article! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Weight Age Gender Female Male 21948 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 5, 2003 0:01pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Rob M and all, A comment I would make is that the existence or non-existence of self and freewill is irrelevant to the Buddha's teaching. I would say that each one of us can choose between skillful/wholesome action and unskillful/unwholesome action, and each action that one chooses has a consequence. Again, interesting post!! And your feedback is welcome!! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, [snip] > Belief in freewill is a belief in self. Buddhism denies the > existence of self and freewill. Understanding that choices arise > naturally because of our habits is an important lesson. The Buddha > stressed in the Bhūmija Sutta (Mn126) that results are obtained > through proper practice, not through aspiration. Strong aspiration > without proper practice will never yield results. Proper practice, > with or without strong aspiration, will always yield results. > > > > Looking forward to feedback on how to improve the article! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 21949 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 5, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Rob M and all, A comment I would make is that the existence or non-existence of self and freewill is irrelevant to the Buddha's teaching. I would say that each one of us can choose between skillful/wholesome action and unskillful/unwholesome action, and each action that one chooses has a consequence. Again, interesting post!! And your feedback is appreciated!! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, [snip] > Belief in freewill is a belief in self. Buddhism denies the > existence of self and freewill. Understanding that choices arise > naturally because of our habits is an important lesson. The Buddha > stressed in the Bhūmija Sutta (Mn126) that results are obtained > through proper practice, not through aspiration. Strong aspiration > without proper practice will never yield results. Proper practice, > with or without strong aspiration, will always yield results. > > > > Looking forward to feedback on how to improve the article! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 21950 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon May 5, 2003 1:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Kom~!* Dear Kiana, > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 4:57 AM > To: dsg > Subject: [dsg] Kom~!* > > > Dear Kom: > > I think everyone did bad and good in their life. Yes. If we always remember that, then when somebody does something bad, we may be able to think about their good part, and not get too upset about their bad parts. Everyone has their bad parts, which should be worked on and improved, but only few people have good friends to tell them in a productive way how to recognize our own bad parts. You want to be a better person, don't you? > > Finally I want to ask you a question. Will you > descriminate against the Chinese?(Because of the SARS) > I often cannot tell if someone is Chinese, so discriminating against the Chinese exclusively would be tough. Everybody needs to take reasonable pre-caution that doesn't hurt others, which is often tough to do. I hope you are doing well. kom 21951 From: yasalalaka Date: Mon May 5, 2003 11:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Dear Sarah, Thank you for paying attention to my post. from time to time stop what ever he is doing and place his mind on the breath and get into a state of samadhi for a few minutes ....Sarah Leaving aside the `momentary samadhi' definition, does this not sound like a self practising meditation? Also, why and in what way is the stopping of thoughts kusala (wholesome)? In other words, how can you be sure that these states or this concentration is skilful? What is the aim? ....Yasa I did not say stop thoughts. I said "stop what ever he is doing ". If you are typing on the key board of the PC, for instance, you can stop typing....and have a few moments of concentrated calm (samadhi) you can do it not to be skilful but as a means to be restful. __________________________________________________________________ ......Sarah Are you sure this is what it says in the texts, i.e `any arammana', `stomach..', `all persons..'?? ......Yasa In this post I mentioned various objects of meditation in use now, without reference to the texts. In the texts the Buddha speaks of the body in body...(that includes lot of things....) taking a long breath one knows he is taking a long breath, taking a short breath......etc. (Mahasatipatthana) ___________________________________________________________________ .......Yasa >... You will see citta accompanied with lobha, > dosa and moha. You will see how objects come in contact with sense > doors (passa), how citta arises and become aware of an object..... > To be mindful is important, but you will have to make things happen, > and that is where the right effort comes in. I will stop here, > before the post becomes too long and unwieldy. .....sarah I know that we have to use `you' and `I' conventionally, but in these comments it sounds like there is an idea of self seeing, making things happen and so on. I don't understand the characteristic of right effort being to `make things happen' or to change them from what they are already. ...Yasa One cannot get away from the conventional terms, in meditation until you have developped meditation. It is only in being a stream entrant that the identy of self, will cease. Until then it will not stop making its appearance, but then you will have to notice it at the moment. Make things happen, is for me is to sit to meditate, it is only then that one can see the moment to moment rising and falling away of citta , more distinctly. ________________________________________________________________ ......Sarah Again, they are subtle points and there have been many discussions on this topic on DSG. I think they lie at the root of why some feel the need to `do' a practice and others see practice in terms of understanding without a special `doing'. It also relates to questions about what is meant by `meditation' in the teachings. Yasa.... The Buddha has repeatedly asked his disciples to meditate. All, practically, all Suttas directly or indirectly refer to meditation, to realise or experience anicca, dukkha, anatma, and find release from Samasara. It is avidya that keeps us bound to the Samsara, and panna developped through meditation to see the reality of trilakkhana is the means to attain nibbana. See Malukyaputta Sutta as an example. Buddha never taught his disciples the Abhidhamma Sutta. Only person to whom it was given was Ven.Sariputta. Even at the first and the second Councils the Abhidhamma was not read and included as the third Chapter. It was included only at the third Sangayana. But the Buddha, included what is essential of the paramatta dhamma in his discourses. To be aware of the moment through mindfulness, is important to keep the mind here and now. It should be practiced in all ones activities, in between meditation sittings. There may be disagreements here in this forum as you seem to have selected Abhidhamma to "practice in terms of understanding without a special"doing", which was out side what the Buddha taught. Buddha has not in any of his Suttas refered to Abhidhamma or as Abhidhamma as an instrument to attain nibbana. __________________________________________________________________ .......Saraha, In an old post to Nina you mentioned being aware of the arammana `without the `disturbance' of activities outside it'. You also mentioned in that post `directing' the mind to listen to the sound and so on. I think this all suggests an idea of `selection' in practice, an idea that the present arammana appearing at this moment is adequate for sati to take as object or that another object or time would be more appropriate. Perhaps it also suggests an idea that arammanas can be controlled in some way which I think is not in line with what we learn about conditioned phenomena and anatta. We have an idea that this may be simpler or less complex, but perhaps at that moment of thinking in that way, thinking can be the object of awareness. .....Yasa, In the post to Nina, I referred to " this moment of rising and falling away of nama- rupa" , as opposed to a session of sitting meditation. I was wondering how one could be mindful of the moment, in one's daily activity.....it is O.K. if one's activity is limited to a few occupations. But it would be difficult, for some one who is busy with his or her daily chores. If on the other hand one if one meditates, one could couple " the observation of the moment" with the practice. I referred to" directing the mind....", in reference to hetu/phala(cause and effect). In seated meditation we see the moment to moment rising and falling away as' nama rupa". Hetu/phala, is seen more in an action. If I were to observe hetu/phala while meditating, it would be by" listening-hearing, listening-hearing". As "nama-rupa" I am aware (nama) of the sound(rupa). _______________________________________________________________ ........Sarah In other words, there only ever is this moment and the namas and rupas arising and falling away now whether we're here or there. If there is the idea that when we're washing dishes or shopping or typing that it's not `ideal' for sati, it's just a kind of thinking at that moment which is erroneous in that any dhammas at any time are just as `real' as at any other time. Whether we mention conditional dependence or Abhidhamma or any other `terms', we can see that the Teachings are only ever about presently arising realities. I know that there are many comments here you may not agree with;-) .........Yasa When you 'eat you eat', when you 'see you see'.. that is being in the moment. So is " when you wash, you wash, (what ever) dishes or cups". Here it is just being aware not allowing the mind to wander away. There is a difference in thinking and being aware... ___________________________________________________________________ ....Sarah Yasa, I also wished to thank you in that earlier post (to Nina) for telling us more about yourself. Many of us were briefly in Kandy last year, on a trip of the holy places in Sri Lanka. Jon and I also met in Sri Lanka;-) Your dhamma study and practice is the best retirement. Anumodana. .....Yasa Thank you Sarah. I see you have done lot of reading and I like reading your posts. I am from Kandy, and(late) Godwin who was at Nilamba was my friend with whom I had been doing lot of meditation. I hope what I have written is comprehensible. Pardon me for any errors.. with metta, Yasa 21953 From: robmoult Date: Mon May 5, 2003 3:19pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - (and sankhara) Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > How does cetana fit into javana, Rob? In An VI 63, the Buddha said, "Cetana 'ham bhikkhave kammam vadami" or "It is volition (cetana), monks, that I declare to be kamma." In other words, the Buddha equated cetana and kamma. Javana is a name for the "active" cittas in the citta-process; these are the cittas that create kamma in non-Arahants. In all cittas, cetana plays the role of coordinating the cetasikas This is the only role of cetana in non-javana cittas and the only role of cetana in javana cittas of Arahants. In these cittas, cetana is like a boss who directs workers (the other cetasikas). In javana cittas of non-Arahants, cetana also plays the role of willing (creating kamma). Like a boss who directs workers and also does his share of the work as well; it is "exceedingly energetic". Connie, does this answer your question? Metta, Rob M :-) 21954 From: robmoult Date: Mon May 5, 2003 3:35pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Krop / Victor / TG (and others); --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Krop" wrote: > > I'd like to see where in the suttas does the Buddha make any > metaphysical assertion about the existence or not existence of self. > Not-self is an strategy for release. Sorry, I messed up. I am aware of the subtle difference between "not-self" and "non- self". Somebody already contacted me off-list and pointed this out as well. I have replaced the sentence, "Buddhism denies the existence of self and freewill." with the sentence "The doctrine of anatta is incompatible with freewill." I really appreciate having friends in the Dhamma to catch my slip- ups. Metta, Rob M :-) 21955 From: Date: Mon May 5, 2003 3:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Rob, Here are few contrarian ideas. It is true that most people think the idea of free will assumes a self but this isn't necessarily the case. We could examine this concept by looking at what is meant by "free". "Free" doesn't mean all powerful, although there is that implication. "Free" actually means "without" as in without bondage or without a master as in the master/slave relationship. So "free will" actually means will without a master or without fetters. This fits in rather nicely with the concepts of no self and no control. A will without fetters could be clear comprehension and mindfulness arising in a javana series or the 10 perfections arising in javana. This freedom from fetters includes freedom from compulsive unwholesome reactions to kamma result and freedom from creating new kamma for an arahant. Theoretically, freedom from accumulations would necessitate the cessation of the consciousness process. This would be the end of accumulations, will, and freedom. However, "accumulations" is a highly problematic concept for me. Why isn't it included as a formal part of consciousness process? Is it a reality? If it is consciousness, what kind? Is there an "accumulations process" whereby conflicting accumulations battle it out to see which one influences javana? This is a very murky subject with no textual clarification and reasoning without direct experience would seem inadequate to the task, imo. So I don't see that we could say very much about accumulations. However this may be, we can say "free will" _could_ mean will free from the 10 fetters: personality belief, sceptical doubt, clinging to mere rules and ritual, sensuous craving, ill-will, craving for fine-material existence, craving for immaterial existence, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. In other words, a moment of satipatthana or the usual experience of an arahant. Larry 21956 From: azita gill Date: Mon May 5, 2003 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] get together. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > what about January next year? Lodewijk thought this > time not in Dec but > change it for once to January?? > Nina. > op 30-04-2003 14:59 schreef Sarah op > sarahdhhk@y...: > dear Nina, unfortunately, Jan. is not really an option for me. I have holidays from work in Dec. and have invited Jill Jordan to accompany me on that trip to Bkk. I mentioned to her that Lodewijk suggested Jan. and she also is unable to attend in Jan. For me, it would be disappointing not to have a get-together at a time when I can attend, and esp. when I am able to bring another dhamma friend along. Hopefully, this could fit into your plans. Pls let me know. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 21957 From: m. nease Date: Mon May 5, 2003 6:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi, Victor, Actions and their motivations arise and subside, I think--and most certainly with consequences--but no actor or motivator. To me, nothing could be more relevant to the Buddha's teaching. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: yu_zhonghao To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 12:57 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! > Hi Rob M and all, > > A comment I would make is that the existence or non-existence of > self and freewill is irrelevant to the Buddha's teaching. I would > say that each one of us can choose between skillful/wholesome action > and unskillful/unwholesome action, and each action that one chooses > has a consequence. > > Again, interesting post!! And your feedback is welcome!! > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Hi All, > [snip] > > Belief in freewill is a belief in self. Buddhism denies the > > existence of self and freewill. Understanding that choices arise > > naturally because of our habits is an important lesson. The Buddha > > stressed in the Bhūmija Sutta (Mn126) that results are > obtained > > through proper practice, not through aspiration. Strong aspiration > > without proper practice will never yield results. Proper practice, > > with or without strong aspiration, will always yield results. > > > > > > > > Looking forward to feedback on how to improve the article! > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > 21958 From: smallchap Date: Mon May 5, 2003 6:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conventional right view vs. Noble right view Dear Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Smallchap > The part of your post that I have reservations about is your > statement that "The thought of conventional impermanence often > triggers insight.", insofar as you are saying this is a > statement > found in the texts. > Secondly, there is nothing in the texts that says that insight > is > 'triggered' by any particular factor(s); S: No. It is not stated anywhere in the texts as far as I know. It is "my" view. I have quoted many stories in the Dhammapada Commentery to show how I come to this view. (See also the last part of my reply.) > For a start, a thought of conventional impermanence is not > *necessarily* kusala, and unless we are skilled at knowing the > difference between moments that are kusala and moments that > are > accompanied by very subtle akusala, there is no way of being > able to > tell. S: A clear definition of akusala may be necessary here. But I don't think we need to dwell on this any further. ( Again, see the last part of my reply.) there are only > descriptions > of factors the development of which are indispensable to > insight (I'm > sure you appreciate the distinction). S: Yes. I do. > Thanks again for your comments and for the sutta quote. S: My pleasure. > > Jon > > PS A follow-up question for you, Smallchap. In this thread > we have > been talking about the sense in which it can be said that a > computer > is conditioned. Would you say that the knowledge that a > computer is > built from parts and did not spontaneously come into existence > as an > assembled whole, or knowledge of the need for parts, skill and > effort > as a condition for the coming into existence of a computer, is > conventional right view? (Not a trick question, I promise > ;-)) S: Since it has not been included in MN 117 as right view, we need not speculate on whether it is conventional right view, else we risk falling into false views as described by the Buddha in MN 72. Here is a small section copied from Vism. Ch XX 73. It descibes how one should discern with reagrds to inanimate things. I am sure you will find it interesting (and please don't throw away your copy of Visudhimagga ;-)). "Having attributed the three characterics to that arising from nutriment, etc., he again attributes the three characteristics to natural materiality. Natural materiality is a name for external materiality that is bound up with faculties and arises along with the aeon of world expansion, for example, iron, copper, tin, lead, gold, silver, pearl, gem, beryl, conch, shell, marble, coral, ruby, opal, soil, stone, rock, grass, tree, creeper, and so on (see Vbh.83). That becomes evident to him by means of an asoka-tree shoot. For that to begin with is pale pink; then in two or three days it becomes dense red; again in two or three days it becomes dull red, next [brown,] the colour of a tender [mango] shoot; next, the colour of arowing shoot; next, the colour of pale leaves; next, the colour of dard green leaves. After it has become the colour of dark green leaves, as it follows out the successive stages of such material continuity, it eventually becomes withered foliage, and at the end of the year it breaks loose from its stem and falls off. "Discerning that, he attributes the three characterics to it thus: The materiality occuring when it is pale pink ceases there without reaching the time when it is dense red; the materiality occuring when it is dense red ceases there without reaching the time when it is dull red; the materiality occuring when it is dull red ceases there without reaching the time when it is the colour of a tender [mango] shoot; the materiality occuring when it is the colour of a tender [mango] shoot ceases there without reaching the time when it is the colour of a growing shoot; the materiality occuring when it is the colour of a growing shoot ceases there without reaching the time when it is the colour of pale green leaves; the materiality occuring when it is the colour of pale green leaves ceases there without reaching the time when it is the colour of dark green leaves; the materiality occuring when it is the colour of dark green leaves ceases there without reaching the time when it is withered foliage; the materiality occuring when it is withered foliage ceases there without reaching the time when it breaks loose from its stem and falls off; therefore it is impernanent, painful, not self. "He comprehends all natural materiality in this way. smallchap 21959 From: connie Date: Mon May 5, 2003 5:36pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - (and sankhara) Thank you, Rob M ~ I like your answer... can I say 'refined' cetana simply delegates and no longer pushes 'it-self'? I'm afraid I'm not satisfied with the question and getting the question right's probably half the answer, but I'm not chasing it. peace, connie Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > How does cetana fit into javana, Rob? In An VI 63, the Buddha said, "Cetana 'ham bhikkhave kammam vadami" or "It is volition (cetana), monks, that I declare to be kamma." In other words, the Buddha equated cetana and kamma. Javana is a name for the "active" cittas in the citta-process; these are the cittas that create kamma in non-Arahants. In all cittas, cetana plays the role of coordinating the cetasikas This is the only role of cetana in non-javana cittas and the only role of cetana in javana cittas of Arahants. In these cittas, cetana is like a boss who directs workers (the other cetasikas). In javana cittas of non-Arahants, cetana also plays the role of willing (creating kamma). Like a boss who directs workers and also does his share of the work as well; it is "exceedingly energetic". Connie, does this answer your question? Metta, Rob M :-) 21960 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 5, 2003 8:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Mike, Thanks for the reply! I would say that each of us can choose our action. However, I would not characterize us as actor or motivator. Regarding the Buddha's teaching: To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind -- this is the teaching of the Buddhas. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/14.html One can avoid all evil, one can cultivate good, one can cleanse one's mind!! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi, Victor, > > Actions and their motivations arise and subside, I think--and most certainly > with consequences--but no actor or motivator. To me, nothing could be more > relevant to the Buddha's teaching. > > Mike 21961 From: robmoult Date: Mon May 5, 2003 8:44pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - (and sankhara) Hi Connie, I'm not comfortable with 'refined' or 'it-self'. Reading the rest of your post (on sankhara), the question to me on cetana seemed out of place. Specifically, the rest of your post seemed sweeping and broad while the question on cetana was a specific request for a factoid. Perhaps you could ask the question "behind" the cetana question to help me understand better where you are coming from. I agree with you that getting the question right is probably half the answer. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > I like your answer... can I say 'refined' cetana simply delegates and no > longer pushes 'it-self'? > I'm afraid I'm not satisfied with the question and getting the question > right's probably half the answer, but I'm not chasing it. 21962 From: rahula_80 Date: Mon May 5, 2003 10:04pm Subject: Sex and Nibbana Hi, Is sex an inhibiting factor to achieve Nibbana? My readings on Buddhism seems to suggest that it is. And, IMO, it is. One needs to have lust to have sex. So, if there is no lust, I doubt sex is possible. Any opinions are greatly appreciated. Thanks. 21963 From: connie Date: Mon May 5, 2003 8:29pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - (and sankhara) Hi again, Rob M ~ Doh... all of that wracking my so-called brain for the word "motive"... the javanas 'run through', etc. Thanks again. peace, connie 21964 From: yasalalaka Date: Tue May 6, 2003 2:20am Subject: Re: Sex and Nibbana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > Is sex an inhibiting factor to achieve Nibbana? My readings on > Buddhism seems to suggest that it is. And, IMO, it is. One needs to > have lust to have sex. So, if there is no lust, I doubt sex is > possible. > > Any opinions are greatly appreciated. > > Thanks. ____________________________________________________________________ Sex is the strongest urge in a being. Buddha, did not forbid sex for his lay followers. In the five precepts taken by every Buddhist lay person, the third is to abstain from sexual misconduct. In Sigala Sutta, Buddha, spoke of married life and the duties of a husband to-wards his wife and those of a wife towards her husband. In many Suttas he had spoken of the dangers of unrestrained sexual life. In Rupadi Ekaka Vagga (opening ) of the Anguttara Nikaya, Buddha speaks of the attraction of a woman to a man " I do not know of a form, sound, smell, flavour, touch , that captivates a man than that of a woman" and in the reverse the attraction of a man to a woman. In Parabhava Sutta, Buddha speak of unchecked sexual life as a cause for ones down fall: "Not to be contented with one's own wife, and to be seen with harlots and the wives of others -- this is a cause of one's downfall. Being past one's youth, to take a young wife and to be unable to sleep for jealousy of her -- this is a cause of one's downfall. " Again in Dhammapada: From lust springs grief, from lust springs fear. For those who are wholly free from lust there is no grief, whence then fear. Sex is not an inhibiting factor to attain Nibbana.There were married persons like Visaka who had many children, and Anathapindika a married man with children, who were stream entrants. There are many Vinaya rules prohibiting sex for the Bikkhus. The bulk of the Buddhas discourses were to his disciples, who had given up their householders lives to follow him, and to them the Buddha prohibited sex and desire for sex- to be disciplined in body, action and mind. It is the desire for sex that causes akusala kamma. As long as sex is not committed through misconduct, it is not condemned in Buddhism. One should enjoy sex, but not wallow in the pleasure of it afterwards. Lust or desire to have sex in itself is akusala kamma rooted in lobha. An old person having gone beyond the age of physical sex, may still have lust or desire. Even a Bikkhu,have this urges, therefore the necessity to control such desires through body, act and mind. With metta, Yasa 21965 From: nidive Date: Tue May 6, 2003 9:26am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Yasa, > There may be disagreements here in this forum as you seem to have > selected Abhidhamma to "practice in terms of understanding without a > special"doing", which was out side what the Buddha taught. Buddha > has not in any of his Suttas refered to Abhidhamma or as Abhidhamma > as an instrument to attain nibbana. This is a very good reminder to take the Abhidhamma in moderation. Swee Boon 21966 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 6, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] motivations for class Dear Rob M, I like this one, really appreciate. I like it that you want to inspire them. Appreciating your series. See further below. op 05-05-2003 10:41 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > My objective in writing this article is to educate the intellectual > side of the reader, but also to exort the reader to improve their > practice (metta, dana, vipassana, whatever practice that they have > accumulations for). In fact, this is an underlying motive in my > class; I try to educate and try to inspire. When educating, I tend > to use objective language. When inspiring, I tend to use subjective > language. N: You also write: . As you also know, akusala cittas arise whatever we do, not only when preparing for classes and then there is kusala again, exhorting, educating, inspiring the pupils. They change all the time. Nina. 21967 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 6, 2003 10:15am Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 1, no 7. Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, Ch 1, no 7. I was reminded that no words are needed when sati-sampajañña arises, it is not thinking, defining or speculation. Sati does not choose, it is naturally aware of whatever dhamma appears, also of akusala. If there is no awareness of akusala we keep on taking akusala for self. We are used to thinking about realities, defining them. Direct understanding is different, but it is in conformity with what we learnt from the texts. Hardness is experienced through the bodysense and usually there is no awareness of it. Most of the time we touch a spoon, a fork or a table without sati. Hardness is experienced by the citta that is body-consciousness and it may be followed by attachment, lobha. But when sati-sampajañña arises, hardness still appears but there is awareness and understanding of its characteristic as only a reality, a rúpa. A moment of awareness is very short, but it can lead to more understanding of the characteristics of realities. Acharn Sujin said that it is so useful to study the Dhamma, because we can learn to develop our own understanding. Then we can fully appreciate the Abhidhamma: its purpose is not knowledge of terms and classifications, but direct understanding of what appears now. The Abhidhamma supports the development of satipatthåna. We should remember that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma together with satipatthåna. Three months before his parinibbåna, the Buddha continued to teach satipatthåna. We read in the ³Mahå Parinibbåna Sutta²(³Dialogues of the Buddha, 95) [2] : Then the Bhagavå addressed the Bhikkhus, saying: ³Mindful should you dwell, Bhikkhus, clearly comprehending; thus I exhort you. And how, Bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu mindful? When he dwells contemplating body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; and when he dwells contemplating feeling in the feeling, mind in the mind, and mental objects in the mental objects...² We read further on that the Buddha said to Ånanda: ³Now I am frail, Ånanda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ånanda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathågatha is kept going only with supports. It is only, Ånanda, when the Tathågata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the Signless Concentration of Mind [3], that his body is more comfortable. Therefore, Ånanda, be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Teachings as your island, the Teachings as your refuge, seeking no other refuge...² We then read that by the development of the four Applications of Mindfulness one is an island and refuge to oneself. ***** Footnotes 2. I am using the translation of the Wheel Publications 67-69, B.P.S. Sri Lanka. 3. The Commentary, the Sumangala Vilåsiní, explains: phala samåpatti: fruition attainment. This has nibbåna as object. ****** (end Ch 1) 21968 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 6, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] get together. Dear Azita, It is still so far away, and also for us it is hard to do real planning, we shall see, Nina. op 06-05-2003 01:19 schreef azita gill op gazita2002@y...: > unfortunately, Jan. is not really an option for > me. I have holidays from work in Dec. and have > invited Jill Jordan to accompany me on that trip to > Bkk. 21969 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 6, 2003 10:15am Subject: Perfections, Ch 9, Determination, no 6 Perfections, Ch 9, Determination, no 6 The king of Kåsi went to see the Bodhisatta and exhorted him to reign the kingdom. Prince Temiya refused this. He taught Dhamma to the king in many different ways, and hence the king came to have a sense of urgency because of the impermanence and the disadvantages of sense pleasures which are depraved. The King became inclined to detachment from them and wanted to become a recluse, together with queen Candådeví and many of the courtiers. They all at the end of life were reborn in the Brahma world. The Buddha said at the end of this story that the goddess who was dwelling in the white umbrella at that time was Uppalavaùùå, that the charioteer was the Elder Såriputta, the parents the royal family, the court the Buddhist followers and the wise Temiya the Buddha himself, the protector of the world. The perfection of determination of the Bodhisatta which was of the highest degree in that life is the ³aditthåna paramattha påramí ². The perfection of determination is the firm resolve for kusala with the aim to develop paññå and to eliminate defilements. However, one may not have accumulated this perfection sufficiently. One may see that kusala is beneficial, that one should develop and accumulate it, and that one¹s determination for kusala should become stronger. Inspite of this it is difficult to be steadfast in one¹s resolution, because of the amount of akusala that has been accumulated. Akusala is the condition for being unstable, not steadfast in the determination to develop kusala. As akusala is eliminated, the perfection of determination will further develop. Someone who studied the Dhamma was reflecting that we are in the cycle of birth and death and have to be reborn again. He found that life is so short and that we have a great deal of akusala, that there is no end to rebirth. He did not want to be reborn, he wanted to be freed from the cycle of birth and death. There are conditions for having such thoughts. However, this person did not take an interest in the development of satipatthåna, even though he had listened to the Dhamma, and saw the benefit of satipatthåna. This was because he was not firm, not steadfast in his determination to listen to the Dhamma and develop paññå; there were no conditions for the perfection of determination. We should not be neglectful in our determination for kusala. Day after day we think of what appears through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense, and we conceive many different ideas of what we experience. When we listen to the Dhamma, we should contemplate what we hear, and in this way we can gain more understanding. If we often listen, it is a condition for considering the Dhamma time and again. If we accumulate the inclination to listen there are conditions for contemplating the Dhamma instead of thinking of insignificant things, even if we do not always have the opportunity to listen. This shows us the strength of accumulations. It reminds us not to be neglectful with regard to the perfection of determination. 21970 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue May 6, 2003 2:30pm Subject: Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Krop / Victor / TG (and others); > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Krop" wrote: > > > > I'd like to see where in the suttas does the Buddha make any > > metaphysical assertion about the existence or not existence of > self. > > Not-self is an strategy for release. > > Sorry, I messed up. > > I am aware of the subtle difference between "not-self" and "non- > self". Somebody already contacted me off-list and pointed this out > as well. > > I have replaced the sentence, "Buddhism denies the existence of self > and freewill." with the sentence "The doctrine of anatta is > incompatible with freewill." > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ___________ Dear RobM, Could you explain the difference between "not-self" and "non-self" . RobertK 21971 From: Date: Tue May 6, 2003 4:17pm Subject: Way 85, Mental Objects Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Mental Objects The Five Hindrances 1. Sensuality After explaining the Arousing of Mindfulness of the sixteenfold contemplation of consciousness, the Master said: "And, how, o bhikkhus," in order to expound the fivefold contemplation of mental objects [dhamma], -- things spiritual and material. Further, the laying hold of pure corporeality or materiality was taught by the Blessed One in the instruction on body-contemplation, and in the instruction on the contemplation of feeling and consciousness, the laying hold of the purely spiritual. Now in order to teach the laying hold of a mixture of the material and the spiritual, he said, "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. Or in the contemplation on the body the laying hold of the aggregate of corporeality or materiality was spoken of by the Master; in the contemplation on feeling, the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling; in the contemplation on mind, the laying hold of the aggregate of consciousness; and now in order to speak of even the laying hold of the aggregates of perception and formations, he said "And, how, o bhikkhus," and so forth. There, in the Discourse, the word, santam = "present". It means existing by way of occurrence, practice or repeated happening. Asantam = "not present." Not existing, by way of non-occurrence or because of rejection from the mind by way of reflection or concentration. ["Here, o bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality'..."] In connection with the hindrances it must be known that the hindrance of sensuality arises because of wrong reflection on an object that is sensuously agreeable, pleasant, favorable. Such an object is either sensuality itself or that which produces sensuality -- the sensuality-object. Wrong reflection is inexpedient reflection, reflection on the wrong track. Or it is reflection which considers the impermanent as permanent, pain as pleasure, non-soul as soul, the bad as good. Sense-desire arises when wrong reflection occurs plentifully in a sensuously good object. Therefore the Blessed One said that the condition for the arising of fresh sense-desire and for the increase and expansion of existing sense-desire is plentiful wrong reflection on a sensuously auspicious or promising object. Sense-desire is cast out, indeed, with right reflection on a sensuously inauspicious or unpromising object. Such an object itself or the jhana developed through such an object is meant by the term sensuously inauspicious object. Right reflection is expedient reflection; reflection going on the right track. It is reflection that considers the facts of impermanence, suffering, soullessness and of impurity, according to reality. When there is much right reflection on the sensuously inauspicious or unpromising object, sense-desire is knocked out. Therefore the Blessed One said that the condition for keeping out new sense-desire and for casting out old sense-desire is abundant right reflection on the sensuously inauspicious or unpromising object. Further, there are six things which lead to the casting out of sense-desire: Taking up the sensuously inauspicious subject of meditation; application for the development of the jhana on the sensuously inauspicious subject of meditation; the guarded state of the controlling faculties of sense; moderation in food; the sympathy and support of good men in the endeavor; stimulating talk that helps the accomplishment of the object in view. Explaining these six it is said: Taking up refers to the taking up of the tenfold object sensuously inauspicious, impure, or bad; the man who takes it up will cast out sense-desire. Sense-desire will also be cast out, by him who develops the jhana on the sensuously inauspicious object of meditation, by him who guards the controlling faculties of sense by closing the six sense doors, and by him who knows the measure of food for sustenance and of whom it is said: Enough it is for the comfort of the almsman Who has put aside all thoughts of body and life, Who has his thoughts yoked on to craving's wane, To stop eating when he could eat some four Or five more lumps for which there's belly-room. And, with drinks of water, end his begged repast.[33] It will also be cast out by him who keeps the company of men like the Elder Tissa, the worker in the sensuously inauspicious subject of meditation, sympathetic towards those who endeavor in accomplishing the casting out of sense-desire and by talk connected with the tenfold sensuously inauspicious object. Therefore it is said by the commentator that six things are conducive to the casting out of sense-desire. Sense-desire cast out by these six things becomes incapable of arising, in the future, through the attainment of the path of arahantship. 33. Theragatha Verse 983. 21972 From: rahula_80 Date: Tue May 6, 2003 8:24pm Subject: Re: Sex and Nibbana Hi, > Sex is not an inhibiting factor to attain Nibbana.There were married persons like Visaka who had many children, and Anathapindika a married man with children, who were stream entrants.< But they weren't Arahant. > As long as sex is not committed through misconduct, it is not condemned in Buddhism.< I never claimed that it was. My position was and still is that a person who have attained Nibbana (Arahant) is not able copulate / perform sexual intercourse willingly. Not that sex is evil, but when a person is free from kamaraga, a person loses the ability to copulate. I believe an Anagami too could not copulate. If we check the 10 fetters, we noticed that kamacchanda / kamaraga is the fourth fetter. A Sotapanna is free from the first three fetter. A Sakadagami, in addition, weakens the fourth and fifth factor. While, both, the Anagami and Arahant is free from the fourth factor ie. kamaraga (sensual desire) So, I think my question should be, could one copulate willingly without kamaraga? I think not. 21973 From: Andrew Date: Tue May 6, 2003 9:36pm Subject: A Grimm recipe Dear DSG'ers I have been reading "The Doctrine of the Buddha: The Religion of Reason" by Georg Grimm, first published 1926. Grimm was a German judge who founded a Buddhist organisation later banned by the Nazis. The Preface suggests he is somewhat hostile to the Abhidhamma and yet his chapter on "Personality" seems to me to be Abhidhamma scholarship at its most detailed. In that chapter, he uses a dialogue from the 147th Dialogue of the Majjhima Nikaya and Milindapanha in which Nagasena denies that one can identify phenomena and say "This is contact, this is sensation, this is will, this is consciousness, this is idea, this is discursive thinking." Nagasena likens the situation to a cook preparing a soup for a prince using various ingredients. Once the soup is made, the cook cannot separate the ingredients and say "This is sour cream. This is salt. This is sweet. etc" They are all lost in the unity of the soup. I have not been able to read this in full context and am a bit confused about the message of the simile. As Abhidhamma students, we (intellectually) learn an ingredient list and a recipe. We experience dhammas. Sometimes, the ingredients are so strong that we can name them straight away (That was a chilli! That was/is anger!) But many of the ingredients are too subtle - even though we know they are there somewhere. Nina says that the purpose of classifying realities is to demonstrate that what we take for self are only nama-rupa elements (ADL p 182). Is Nagasena also saying this? When I read his words, I am tempted to identify self with "the unity of the soup" that cannot be unscrambled. What IS Nagasena saying? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Metta Andrew PS it is so long ago, I cannot remember if I thanked Sarah for her answer to my last post! Many thanks with interest!! 21974 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 6, 2003 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! HI RobM, I see the feedback rolling in. Larry’s recent comments are particularly interesting and I’m looking forward to your response;-) At least I agreed with your conculsion! I’m going to split my further comments here into two as well. Briefly here on the Vism passage. --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Sarah, R:> As of the the idea of heading for a laboratory, I'm not sure that a > lobotomy is the fastest route to enlightenment :-) ..... If only it were that simple :-) ..... S:> > 2. I don't quite agree with the paraphrase you present for the Vism > > lines;-) > > ===== > R:> Wow! This catches me by surprise. I didn't think that I was pushing > the envelope on this one. Help me to understand your concern with my > paraphrase. > > ===== I’ve gone back to look again. You wrote: R:“Non-self (anatta¯) is central to Buddhism. The Visuddhi Magga (XVI, 90) says, "For there is suffering, but none who suffers; doing exists although there is no doer; extinction (death) is but no extinguished person; although there is a path, there is no goer." Paraphrasing the Visuddhi Magga, "There is choice, but there is no chooser". If there is no chooser (self), how can there be freewill? The concept of freewill assumes a supervisory self that monitors the mind's activities chooses a response.” ..... S:Perhaps we use the word ‘paraphrasing’ a little differently. I undrstood you to be suggesting that "There is choice, but there is no chooser" could be used to replace the Vism lines with the same meaning, but maybe it’s just the ‘template’ or ‘core value’ you are referring to. In other words, I couldn’t see how ‘there is choice’ could be a paraphrase of ‘there is suffering’. Metta, Sarah ====== 21975 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue May 6, 2003 11:40pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Swee Boon (and Yasa), > > There may be disagreements here in this forum as you seem to have > > selected Abhidhamma to "practice in terms of understanding without a > > special"doing", which was out side what the Buddha taught. Buddha > > has not in any of his Suttas refered to Abhidhamma or as Abhidhamma > > as an instrument to attain nibbana. > > This is a very good reminder to take the Abhidhamma in moderation. I think it is besides the point isn't it if Buddha stated anything with regard to Abhidhamma as being an instrument to attain nibbana. I think he refered to the Eightfold Path as the only one to this goal. And he didn't imply here whether if this was got through meditation practice, what he did say was that the conditions such as, association with the wise, hearing the correct dhamma, wise reflection and applying what has been heard and considered, were quite, if not completely necessary. Of course there is no one here to do any of these things, just development takes place by conditions. But this is not the main reason for my writing. I would like to discuss Swee Boon's comment "to take the Abhidhamma in moderation". I think there is nothing in the Abhidhamma itself that should arouse any concern about being taken to the extreme. It is a matter of individual capacity and accumulations. There will be some who cannot get enough of reading about the details of different paccaya. Others might no see any need to understand beyond the concept of nama and rupa. I think it is up to the individual however, that he is honest with himself and knows on the one hand that he is not overreaching, and on the other, that he is not just plain lazy and lacks the panna and chanda necessary for him to enquire further and deeper into the subject. This is not the fault of the Abhidhamma and there is no fault in any part of the Tipitaka. So there is no question about 'deciding' to be moderate. There is just understanding or not. If I may compare moderation with walking the Middle Path. The middlest of the Middle path is the moment when the Eightfold Path arises. Before that, the next best thing would be any moment of satipatthana. At the moment of experiencing satipatthana, sila, samadhi and panna is all in place. There is no need to isolate any of these and then try to develop them individually. I think it is when we "think" about different aspects of dhamma and do not know what that citta is rooted in, that problems can arise. For example we can consider the Noble Eightfold Path and see them as steps to follow and develop individually, and we may forget to consider the word 'Noble' and hence see that this applies to the Ariyan's citta. ( Correct me if I am wrong Sarah! ) I think that most of the time when we 'think', we are not treading the Middle path, we are on either side of the extreme of 'doing' and 'not doing'. Personally I feel very fortunate to know about what satipatthana means. I know that this is the *only* way to tread towards enlightenment, and that anytime along the way, one can really find out if one is indeed on either side of the extreme. There is only this present citta to be known, no idea about doing anything to arouse understanding. And satipatthana is not something you can arouse by turning your attention towards any chosen object, *away from the present one*. This is NOT the correct condition for sati to arise, it is more like feeding ground for lobha (and moha) to me. Sati arises because of conditions, not because one decides to have it or believing that having the right intention would cause it to arise. Similarly, if one studies the Abhidhamma with the aim of matching what one has read with actual experience, even this is wrong. There is danger in either case, of being drawn by one's projections. This is why I believe, that detachment must be there every step of the way, right from the very first step. And I would venture to even say that until and unless we have taken this first step, no matter how much otherwise we have studied the Dhamma, we are not moving towards the goal. Of course at anytime, if a person who has studied a lot, comes to realize his mistake, he can start off from the very beginning, but perhaps he will then move ahead very fast!! (Sorry for indulging in speculation ;-)) I guess the debate over whether Buddha taught or not, formal meditation will never be conclusive. This question I think has come to more be a question of 'authority', that is, "Buddha said so, so we must all do it." But leaving aside the question of authority, I would like you to condider if there is anything beyond this moment? Where in the understanding of this moment is there a dictate to next do anything with regard to quality of subsequent cittas? There is only sati or there is no sati, guarding of the senses or not, understanding or ignorance! Sati sampajanna is just aware of the arising reality, there may be ignorance and other akusala following, would panna push one to not make this happen or to *contrrol* future accurances? Why would it, when it does not have a particular discrimination for kusala or akusala as objects to be known?! When Buddha asked us to be our own guide, I think he really meant it. He didn't have conditions such as, "but you must practice formal sitting" etc. How different is this from chanting, reciting mantras, devotional practices etc.? For these people, they have their justifications and arguments with reference to subjective states of mind, like concentration, bliss etc. For us we say, turning our attention to breath, away from the current flow of thoughts, we feel calm and have a sense of awareness with regard to arising dhammas. But this is *subjective*, in the end we need to find out if there is any sense of detachment!? And whether our evaluation of this too might not be subjective and mistaken! The conditions were such that I had to write in this tone, hope you both don't mind it. Best wishes, Sukin. 21976 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 6, 2003 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Rob M (and Yasa & Rahula in passing;-)), part 2 R:> Sorry, Sarah, my first inclination is to stick with the BB quote. > Here is why: > > Why did I volunteer to teach Abhidhamma? I can't deny that there was > some mana involved; I thought that I could do a "good job". Why do I > work so hard to prepare for my Abhidhamma classes? I can't deny that > there is some dosa involved (fear of making a fool of myself). At my > current stage of development, I acknowledge that many of my > motivations are akusala. I use my understanding of the nature of > kusala and akusala to create energy to perform kusala. ..... S: As Nina said, there are bound to be many moments of akusala (unwholesome states) whatever activity we engage in. However, you are doing your best to help others in spite of -- not because of -- these akusala states. In other words, there is confidence in the value of sharing your knowledge with others and developing understanding at the same time. Whilst some motivations are bound to be akusala, the understanding of them is skilful. Now, if you knew what you were teaching was wrong or misleading, you would not be teaching it or encouraging others to follow it. That would be the difference, I think. ..... R:>The > Visuddhimagga (XVII, 102) makes it clear that akusala (ignorance) > can be a condition for merit. This works in one of two ways; by > object condition (it is meritorious to recognize an akusala thought > as akusala) and by decisive support condition (when mana motivates > one to do good deeds). ..... S: This is true. Any state can be a condition in these ways. However, if there was any following of akusala, such as ignorance, wrong view, aversion or attachment, with the idea that it didn’t matter because it could be a condition for wholesome states down the track, that would definitely be wrong view. ..... R: >As I progress along the path of development, > at some point, I will be able to leave behind me the mana and dosa > that push me to volunteer and prepare for my talks. However, I can't > burn that bridge until I have crossed it. ..... S: You may think that without mana and dosa that you wouldn’t be able to prepare or give the talks. I can’t say. It’s like Rahula’s question about the arahant’s life. Of course an arahant wouldn’t be able to follow any of our daily activities. There simply woudn’t be the supporting conditions and this is why he cannot continue as a lay person even for a day. I liked Yasa’s reply very much. The aim is not to try and imitate an arahant whose life without kilesa is impossible for us to imagine. The aim is to start where we are (as someone (?) pointed out recently, one step at a time, understanding present phenomena. You may well find that with more consideration and awareness of these kilesa and other phenomena and a growing understanding of them as anatta, that you prepare the talks even more wisely and helpfully than before. Indeed, as I see it, your notes and materials seem to be improving all the time and we all appreciate how open-minded you are to the feedback. What I’m trying to say in a very long-winded way, is that I think there is a big difference between naturally arising kilesa (defilements)and pursuing any activities if one knows them to be based on a wrong premise or view. ..... R: >At some point, I will have > to leave words and concepts behind me. For now, I use them to > develop my practice. The Buddha said (Mn22) that we have to be > prepared to leave the good states behind at some point. ..... S: I don’t understand there being any suggestion that the ‘words and concepts’ need to be left behind. Rather the grasping and attachment to those words or the Dhamma. In the Simile of the Snake, we are urged to carefully examine the meaning of the words and the purpose of studying. “Examining the meaning of those teachings with wisdom, they gain a reflective acceptance of them.” ..... R: >In this > sutta, the Buddha likens the good states to be like a raft that > carries one from danger to a safe side of the river; after > traversing the river, you don't carry the raft with you... you let > it go. ..... S: B.Bodhi adds a helpful note (with commentary note) to the last lines in the Simile of the Raft in the Nanamoli/Bodhi transl of MN, p1208: Sutta lines: “Bhikkhus, when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft, you should abandon even good states, how much more so bad states.” Footnote: “Dhammaa pi vo phaatabbaa pageva adhammaa” MA identifies the good states with serenity and insight (samatha-vipassana), and paraphrases the meaning: “I teach, bhikkhus, even the abandoning of desire and attachment to such peaceful and sublime states as serenity and attachment, how much more so to that low, vulgar, contemptible, coarse, and impure thing that this foolish Arittha sees as harmless when he says that there is no obstruction in desire and lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure.” The commentator cites MN 66.26-33 as an example of the Buddha teaching the abandonment of attachment to serenity, MN 38.14 as an example of his teaching the abandonment of attachment to insight. Note that it is in each case the ATTACHMENT to the good states that should be abandoned, not the good states themselves. The Buddha’s injunction is not an invitation to moral nihilism or a proposal that the enlightened person has gone beyond good and evil. In this connection see MN 76.51” (end Bodhi quote> ***** R: > As I see it, the paragraph that I quoted is not "typical Bhikkhu > Bodhi". BB normally writes with an objective "academic" style (I > love his stuff). In this specific paragraph, BB seems to be exorting > the reader to improve their practice. BB resorts to conventional > subjective language in an effort to create conditions supporting > kusala energy in the mind of the reader. ..... S: I don’t think it is a question of language or style, but some difference of understanding. ..... R: > My objective in writing this article is to educate the intellectual > side of the reader, but also to exort the reader to improve their > practice (metta, dana, vipassana, whatever practice that they have > accumulations for). ..... S: I think this is a great objective and I certainly appreciate all your efforts to encourage all kinds of kusala in others, Rob. ..... R:>In fact, this is an underlying motive in my > class; I try to educate and try to inspire. When educating, I tend > to use objective language. When inspiring, I tend to use subjective > language. .... S: I’m quite sure you do educate and inspire too. You educate and inspire us all here as well. I also your skills in presenting the Dhamma in different ways. As I said, my comments on the Bodhi extract were not with regard to any language issue. Pls let me know if this helps or confuses further. With metta, Sarah ====== 21977 From: Sarah Date: Wed May 7, 2003 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasa, Let me just reply to some of your comments. I see Sukin has just written, but haven’t read his post. ..... Y: > One cannot get away from the conventional terms, until you have > developped meditation. It is only in being a stream entrant that > the identy of self, will cease. Until then it will not stop making > its appearance, but then you will have to notice it at the moment it > manifests. "Make things happen", is for me, to sit to meditate, it > is only then that one can see the moment to moment rising and > falling away of citta , more distinctly. ..... As I just wrote to Rob M, I don’t see the use of conventional terms as being the problem, rather the wrong view that these terms represent realities. I agree that only when at the stage of stream entry is the wrong view of self eradicated and so on. Meanwhile, panna has to develop to understand these cittas (consciousness) with wrong view. “Make things happen” sounds OK conventionally but if there really is an idea that the impermanence of phenomena can be understood more clearly at particular times, such as when there are fewer worldly distractions, I don’t agree. I believe this would more likely to be thinking about impermanence. So often I hear people suggesting an awareness of rising and falling away without even understanding the distinction between nama and rupa (first stage) or without understanding the distinction between these realities and concepts at the present moment. ..... Y: > The Buddha has repeatedly asked his disciples to meditate. All, > practically, all Suttas directly or indirectly refer to meditation, > to realise or experience anicca, dukkha, anatma, and find release > from Samasara. It is avidya that keeps us bound to the Samsara, and > panna developped through meditation to see the reality of > trilakkhana is the means to attain nibbana. See Malukyaputta Sutta > as an example. ..... It might be useful to discuss the Pali terms for meditation further. We both agree on what you write above, but perhaps we have a different understanding of what terms like bhavana, vipassana, samatha, satipatthana or jhayatha mean. For example, does the Buddha ever say that panna that realizes nibbana and understands the trilakhana can only arise whilst sitting with eyes closed? I’m not trying to be tricky, Yasa. ..... Y: > Buddha never taught his disciples the Abhidhamma Sutta. Only person > to whom it was given was Ven.Sariputta. Even at the first and the > second Councils the Abhidhamma was not even read and included as the > third Chapter. It was included only at the third Sangayana. But the > Buddha, included what is essential of the paramatta dhamma in his > discourses to his pupils. To be aware of the moment through > mindfulness, is important to keep the mind here and now. It should > be practiced in all one's activities, in between meditation > sittings. ..... S: I’ll leave aside different understandings of when the Abhidhamma was first taught (but am happy to pursue further as a separate thread if you like - there's been quite a lot of discussion here before on this topic). I fully agree that the Buddha taught the essentials ‘of the paramattha dhamma in his discourses’. I also believe that those with the right accumulations were able to appreciate the fine points and intricacies of dhammas when they heard these discourses. Many, however, like us, needed all the assistance they could be given;-) I don’t think of mindfulness as something ‘to be practised’. I understand sati to be a mental state that will arise by conditions if there has been sufficient hearing and careful consideration of those same paramatha dhammas. ..... Y: >There may be disagreements here in this forum as you seem > to have selected Abhidhamma to "practice in terms of understanding > without a special"doing", which was out side what the Buddha taught. > Buddha has not in any of his Suttas refered to Abhidhamma or as > Abhidhamma as an instrument to attain nibbana. ..... S: This is the part of your post that Swee Boon liked;-) As I’ve mentioned before, I don’t make any distinction between the paramattha dhammas taught in the Suttanta and Abhidhamma. Realities are realities or actualities regardless. When I was just looking at and quoting from the Simile of the Raft which Rob raised, I didn’t think “Oh this is a sutta, the truths are different from in the Abhidhamma”. Yasa, it’s true there are many different understandings and disagreements on DSG. I think we shouldn’t be concerned, but should be glad that we’re able to air and discuss issues here. I'm just as happy when someone writes with a different viewpoint or understanding as when someone writes in agreement with what I understand. In other posts you write, such as the one I found so helpful on conceit and the one you wrote to Rahula, we are very much on ‘the same side’;-) (Btw, just after I wrote back to you on mana, I re-read my post and found quite a few typos -- immediately the suffocating mana as you described and concern about what others would think when they read MR instead of ME, and then a little wiser reflection and even just a little sati;-)) ..... Y: > In the post to Nina, I referred to " this moment of rising and > falling away of nama rupa" , as opposed to a session of sitting > meditation. I was wondering how one can be mindful of the moment all > the time, in one's daily activity.....it is O.K. if ones activity is > limited to a few things day. But it would be difficult, for some one > who is busy with his or her daily chores. On the other hand,if one > meditates, one can couple " the observation of the moment" with the > practice. ..... These are very good questions. I raised your earlier comments because when you wrote before, Nina was busy with her father and she had asked me to reply if I had time. Sorry for the delay. In the beginning, I think we can be very glad if there is just the occasional moment of sati arising. The Buddha spoke of the value of just a ‘finger-snap’ of wholesomeness. When it seems that there can be lasting or continuous awareness or other wholesome states in a meditation practice or any other time, I’m not sure if there isn’t some delusion. For example, we know there are frequently changing sense door and mind door processes with bhavanga cittas in between. Wholesome states can only arise with javana cittas and are so very brief. If there is an idea of being mindful of sitting or eating or standing, it’s OK, but not, as I understand, the development of satipatthana which must have paramattha dhammas as objects. To be honest, I don’t see the practice or development of satipatthana as separate from daily chores. This is why in the satipatthana sutta all aspects of daily life for the bhikkhu are covered. ..... Y: > When you 'eat you eat', when you 'see you see'.. that is being in > the moment. .... S: I know what you mean conventionlly again, but as it describes in the Satipatthana sutta, the nature of the elements to be known and understood at these times is more intricate. I don’t believe the aim is to ‘be in the moment’, but for the development of panna and other wholesome states which can know the ‘in the moment’ dhammas. .... Y: >So is " when you wash, you wash, (what ever) dishes or > cups". Here it is just being aware not allowing the mind to wander > away. There is a difference in thinking and being aware... ..... S: I agree with your last sentence and Swee Boon will agree with all your comments here;-) ..... Y: > Thank you Sarah. I see you have done lot of reading and I like > reading your posts. .... S: Likewise. I enjoy your posts and appreciate your extensive familiarity with the texts, since your childhood I’m sure. Actually, I’m not a big reader like many others here...When it comes to the Dhamma, I’ve always just read little bits here and there and then reflected quite a bit. Usually, too, I forget names and details. ..... Y: >I am from Kandy, and(late) Godwin who was at > Nilamba was my friend with whom I had been doing lot of meditation. > I hope what I have written is comprehensible. Pardon me for any > errors.. ..... S: When we re-visited Kandy last year, it was so unchanged and I'd forgotten how beautfiful the surrounding countryside is. When I was younger (in the early 70s), I spent 7 mths living in a Forest temple in Sri Lanka (outside Colombo), also doing a lot of meditation that you’d fully approve of;-) It was there at the very end of my stay that I first listened to a tape of Khun Sujin discussing dhamma. It was full of Pali and Thai which I didn’t understand and very poor quality, but I was keen to hear more. I also came across a manuscript of the first part of 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' and began to understand more about paramattha dhammas and anatta. I remember also reading most of the Visuddhimagga for the first time during this period and finding it most inspiring. What you write is very comprehensible and interesting too. Pardon me also for any errors. Thx again for all your kind posts, Yasa. With metta, Sarah ====== 21978 From: Sarah Date: Wed May 7, 2003 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Dave (& Rob M), --- dwlemen wrote: > Hi Rob & Sarah, > > I'm still very much a novice compared to so many of you on this list, > but I thought I might throw out my $0.02 for consideration or > deleting! .... Your $0.02 is always much appreciated as far as I’m concerned. You always make well-considered points. ..... > For what it's worth, I've always thought of our actions and "free > will" as a ongoing process of probabilities. Something similiar to > predicting the weather. When I watch the news, I hear that, because > of this and that condition, there's a probability of rain or sun. > Sometimes they are right, but other times, other factors play out and > the weather goes the other way (as it did yesterday much to our > children's disappointment!). ..... I think this is a very good analogy and way of presenting conditions. Yes, based on known conditions, predictions are made and usually they are as off-base as those weather forecasts! ..... > I've noticed that people too can be predicted. We do like to have > this concept of self and free will, but yet, we mostly act according > to predictable criteria. And, as you pointed out in physics, the act > of observing a particle changes it, so does the act of observing a > self. It too becomes a variable in the calculation and throws the > probabilities all off! ..... Conditions and tendencies. Only the Buddha’s omniscience could know all the possible variables and thus predict the outcomes precisely. Mostly our predictions are just at a very rudimentary level - taking the various variables and tendencies for selves and so on. Thanks for these comments. ..... > Perhaps it is the computer geek-ness in me, but as a big fan of > science, I think it can show us some underlying factors. This "me" > is, like it or not, tied to this phycial body, complete with > hormones, neurological traits, etc. I think that we can learn a lot > from the scientific study of meditation. I don't think we'll ever > get to an "Enlightenment Pill" because the complexities are too ... > well... complex. Just like we will never be able to predict the > weather with 100% accuracy, let alone control it. ..... Hmmm.... there’s still enough psychology geek-ness in me to find these reports of some interest too. However, I don’t believe the ‘sense of self’ being measured or the kind of awareness or prdictability, neurological traits etc has anything but a superficial bering on the dhammas we read about in the texts and the characteristic of anatta of these dhammas. Let’s say that scientifically a way is found to predict and control all dosa (anger, aversion) as it is apparent to most people. It doesn’t mean there is any understanding of this state or of anatta or the underlying ignorance or attachment which conditions it. I think a lot of other facts can be learnt from scientific studies of meditation as you say. I’m just wary of many of the sweeping conclusions on findings;-) ..... > The physical properties of the brain and our consciousness are > clearly entertwined. As such, I think we can learn a lot from the > scientific study of the workings of the brain. I like to think of > this type of research as helping in the understanding of the > impermanence or "no-self." ..... A question might be whether those familiar with scientific findings are more likely to have any direct awareness of phenomena (namas and rupas). Perhaps some may be more likely to be open-minded enough to consider and hear about these truths. Others may cling to the idea that science can provide all the answers and therefore have no interest in listening to what is considered ‘unscientific’ and ‘unprovable’ in the laboratory. What do you think? ..... > Anyway, I don't know if any of this is helpful or not. But, here it > is none the less! ..... I think it’s helpful to hear all the comments and I found yours interesting and comprehensible, though Larry always wins the prize for ‘provocative comments’;-) Look forward to more and any further feedback. With all these good people here, let me put out another plug for the statue you’re trying to order. All - I have since established that the statue Dave is still wishing to purchase is closer to 6” than 6’ (maybe 6” to 1’ so as not to scare his wife), preferably Theravadan (Thai, Sri Lankan....), modest in price, ie. nothing fancy. If it can be ordered and paid for on the net, that would be easiest. Any assistance or link would be appreciated (on or off-list to Dave). Metta, Sarah ======= 21979 From: yasalalaka Date: Wed May 7, 2003 0:21am Subject: Re: Sex and Nibbana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > > Sex is not an inhibiting factor to attain Nibbana.There were > married persons like Visaka who had many children, and Anathapindika > a married man with children, who were stream entrants.< > > But they weren't Arahant. > > > As long as sex is not committed through misconduct, it is not > condemned in Buddhism.< > > I never claimed that it was. > My position was and still is that a person who have attained Nibbana > (Arahant) is not able copulate / perform sexual intercourse willingly. > > Not that sex is evil, but when a person is free from kamaraga, a > person loses the ability to copulate. > > I believe an Anagami too could not copulate. > > If we check the 10 fetters, we noticed that kamacchanda / kamaraga is > the fourth fetter. A Sotapanna is free from the first three fetter. A > Sakadagami, in addition, weakens the fourth and fifth factor. While, > both, the Anagami and Arahant is free from the fourth factor ie. > kamaraga (sensual desire) > > So, I think my question should be, could one copulate willingly > without kamaraga? I think not. ______________________________________________________________________ Can one copulate without Kamaraga ? As I have said the Sotapanna has Kamaraga. He or she may copulate and have children. But I do not think that at that stage , one would copulate just for the pleasure of it.....! A Sakurdagami has overcome Kamaraga. But still not completely freed from it.He has control over citta. When the desire arises he will know it and the desire will fall away. He may perhaps have the desire to copulate...I have strong doubt whether he will do so. An Anagami and an Arahat, will definitely not copulate because those lobha mula akusala citta will not arise in them. There are no Sutta references on this, as far as I know. May be some one who knows more about it will reply you. with metta, Yasa 21980 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed May 7, 2003 5:49am Subject: Right Effort Hi all, I would like to post this link on right effort. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-vayamo.html May this be of benefit to all!! Regards, Victor 21981 From: Sarah Date: Wed May 7, 2003 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Correction in quote to Rob M, I wrote: > S: B.Bodhi adds a helpful note (with commentary note) to the last lines > in > the Simile of the Raft in the Nanamoli/Bodhi transl of MN, p1208: > Sutta lines: > “Bhikkhus, when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft, you should > abandon even good states, how much more so bad states.” > > Footnote: > “Dhammaa pi vo phaatabbaa pageva adhammaa” MA identifies the good states > with serenity and insight (samatha-vipassana), and paraphrases the > meaning: “I teach, bhikkhus, even the abandoning of desire and > attachment > to such peaceful and sublime states as serenity and attachment, ..... S: the last line should read: "to such peaceful and sublime states as serenity and INSIGHT (my caps), ..... >how much > more so to that low, vulgar, contemptible, coarse, and impure thing that > this foolish Arittha sees as harmless when he says that there is no > obstruction in desire and lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure.” > The commentator cites MN 66.26-33 as an example of the Buddha teaching > the > abandonment of attachment to serenity, MN 38.14 as an example of his > teaching the abandonment of attachment to insight. Note that it is in > each case the ATTACHMENT to the good states that should be abandoned, > not > the good states themselves. The Buddha’s injunction is not an > invitation > to moral nihilism or a proposal that the enlightened person has gone > beyond good and evil. In this connection see MN 76.51” (end Bodhi quote> > ***** Sarah ======== 21982 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 7, 2003 10:33am Subject: Perfections, Ch 9, Determination, no 7 Perfections, Ch 9, Determination, no 7 The Dhamma as taught by the Buddha is of immense benefit to all of us. We should contemplate the Dhamma in all details. If we wish to develop paññå and all the different ways of kusala, we should not neglect knowing and understanding our own akusala. Otherwise we cannot accumulate the perfections of determination and of truthfulness. The perfection of determination is the steadfast resolution to develop kusala with the aim to eradicate defilements, because one sees the danger and disdavantage of akusala. If someone does not know himself as he really is and if he believes himself to be superior to many others, he is attached to the good qualities he erroneously pretends to have. We are full of all kinds of akusala, no matter whether we are eating, enjoying ourselves or performing our tasks in daily life. If we do not know ourselves as we really are and if we take ourselves for a righteous person who does not need to develop kusala, we do not notice that akusala is guiding us so that we shall be inclined to more akusala. When we develop the perfection of determination, the firm resolution to develop paññå through the study and practice of the Dhamma, so that defilements can be completely eradicated, we also need the perfection of truthfulness. This means that we should be sincere and straightforward in our determination. If we do not develop the perfection of truthfulness we shall vacillate and be defeated by akusala. We can see that we need a refined and detailed understanding of our different cittas for the development of kusala. We should not be neglectful with regard to this. We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² about four dhammas which are firm foundations, aditthåna dhammas, connected with the ten perfections. They are: truthfulness, sacca, relinquishment, cåga, calm or peace, upasama, and paññå. These four firm foundations go together with all the other perfections. The foundation of truthfulness, sacca, is steadfastness in truthfulness. We can verify for ourselves to what extent we are stable in truthfulness and sincerity. One may realize that one is not steadfast in truthfulness. We should have a refined knowledge of ourselves and see the disadvantage of action and speech that is not truthful. Even with regard to insignificant matters we should know when we deviate from the truth. At such moments we are overcome by the strength of the defilements we have accumulated. If we consider and notice our akusala, we can see the disadvantage of the akusala we have accumulated and which is the condition for our unwholesome conduct. We can see the disadvantage of our lack of truthfulness and hence we can become more steadfast in truthfulness. A person who is without defilements will not tell a lie and his actions will be in accordance with his thoughts and speech. He is firmly established in truthfulness. Someone who is not steadfast in truthfulness does not act in accordance with his speech, because of the strength of his defilements. This the condition for citta to be unstable in truthfulness. Some people think that it is not important to keep one¹s appointments. Here we see that the accumulation of akusala is the condition for not being truthful in fulfilling what one promised. When people do not see the importance of truthfulness in speech, it is a condition for not seeking the truth which also includes the truth of the noble ones, the ariyans. As regards the observance of truthfulness in speech, even small children can notice whether someone acts in accordance with his words. When they are grown up they abhor all the more eloquence that is deceptive, speech that is not truthful, that is not the speech of the noble ones. ***** 21983 From: yasalalaka Date: Wed May 7, 2003 8:24am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: ... > I think there is nothing in the Abhidhamma itself that should arouse any > concern about being taken to the extreme. It is a matter of individual > capacity and accumulations. There will be some who cannot get enough > of reading about the details of different paccaya. Others might no see > any need to understand beyond the concept of nama and rupa. I think it > is up to the individual however, that he is honest with himself and knows > on the one hand that he is not overreaching, and on the other, that he is > not just plain lazy and lacks the panna and chanda necessary for him to > enquire further and deeper into the subject. This is not the fault of the > Abhidhamma and there is no fault in any part of the Tipitaka. > > So there is no question about 'deciding' to be moderate. There is just > understanding or not. ... ______________COMMENTS______________ Sukin, I understand what you say. It is important that we listen to the wise, read the texts, reflect on what we read and hear to assimilate the teachings. I had never read the Abhidhamma text before, and I am reading the Abhidhamma as explained by Nina. I like the analysis of citta and specially those connected with the bhavanga and patisandhi citta, santirana, votthapana, jhavana . Various types of kamma, ahetuka and vipaka, kusala, akusala and the roots, lobha, dosa, moha.. I have of course come across them and understood them in Sutta, but to take them on their own as in Abhidhamma is different. It is a wealth of information. I also think that I perhaps understand why Buddha, did not teach Abhidhamma to his disciples. He would rather teach it to, those who had highly developed minds, having practiced meditation in the past ,and with wholesome accumulations.. Buddha had made what may be called "instructional" teachings to his disciples, and" analytical" teachings to Devas. It is like the Manuals given to you when you by a machine. One part contains the characteristics-the nuts and bolts, and the other, instructions, as to how to make the machine work. In the teachings of the Buddha, the Abhidhamma is just the "nuts and bolts", of what a being is composed . It has its own interest but what is more important for the disciples and the lay followers, are the instructions, "which" are in the Sutta. If you leave aside the Sutta instructions to Meditate, you are getting away from the essential, to inessential. How many of us see ourselves as mere "paramatta dhammas"- pancakkhanda ? We cannot see that unless we develop our minds through meditation to the level of a Sakadhagami, because in the existence of a being in the samsara, he is not a mere pancakkhandha, but he is a panca-upadankkhandha . He is blinded by clinging, to a "self". Therefore, he does not see ultimate reality. This is not to discourage the learning of Abhidhamma . I do not doubt, that the Abhidhamma is the teachings of the Buddha. It has his "stamp", and careful reading of the suttas reveal the presence of his Abhidhamma teachings, in them. But, why use the "nuts and bolts", to attain Nibbana, through seeing impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and no-self, when there are clear cut instructions to attain nibbana through Meditation. Satipattahana –is mindful, and it is an essential part of meditation. But it is not the meaning of the word "satipatthana" I am speaking about, it is the Sutta-Maha Satipatthana, I refer to, which gives instruction on how to meditate and it is the only discourse of the Buddha where he makes a "challenge" , he says that, if anyone would develop the four frames of reference the way it has been explained in the Satipatthana Sutta ,for seven years or, six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: right here and now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging- sustenance -- non-return. The Buddha gives that assurance, and gives us the Key into our hand and we refuse to accept it. Budhha's, teaching is not complicated, it is simple and straightforward, it is we who make it difficult and complicated, without accepting it as it is. Sarah, too has made very interesting comments on one of my posts. I will make my comments on it, and perhaps, some of my comments on that post may interest you as well. With metta, Yasa 21984 From: connie Date: Wed May 7, 2003 1:04pm Subject: on-line lectures Hi, Everyone ~ Thought you might like to know that www.buddhadhamma.com has put a couple of English dhamma talks in Bangkok up. peace, connie 21985 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 8, 2003 4:03am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasa (and Sukin), Interesting post, and pardon me for jumping in. I would say that: Seeing oneself as "paramatta dhammas" is self-view. The view "I am a panca-upadankkhandha" is self-view. Paramatta dhammas and panca- upadankkhanadha are to be see as they actually are thus: "They are not mine. They I am not. They are not my self." Your feedback is appreciated. Thanks. Regards, Victor [snip] > Sukin, > [snip] > > How many of us see ourselves as mere "paramatta dhammas"- > pancakkhanda ? We cannot see that unless we develop our minds > through meditation to the level of a Sakadhagami, because in the > existence of a being in the samsara, he is not a mere > pancakkhandha, but he is a panca-upadankkhandha . He is blinded by > clinging, to a "self". Therefore, he does not see ultimate reality. [snip] > With metta, > Yasa 21986 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 8, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: A Grimm recipe Hi Andrew (and Nina), I would say that: Nama-rupa elements are not to be taken for self in the first place. Why? Because nama-rupa elements are not self. They are to be seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They I am not. They are not my self." Your comment is appreciated. Thanks. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear DSG'ers [snip] > Nina says that the purpose of classifying realities is to demonstrate > that what we take for self are only nama-rupa elements (ADL p 182). [snip] > Metta > Andrew [snip] 21987 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu May 8, 2003 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as conditioned Smallchap I replied to the rest of this post, but not your PS. --- smallchap wrote: > Dear Jon, ... > smallchap > > ps. During "insight meditation", with the arising of insight > knowledge, one can "see" or "feel" (not thinking! Because it is > impossible to think when samadhi is strong) the arising and falling > of the khandhas and directly know them as anicca, dukkha and > anatta. I agree that it is understanding of the level of insight that sees dhammas as they truly are, including their universal characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta. To my reading of the texts, however, the seeing of those characteristics with distinction would be a highly developed level of insight, and must have been preceded by insight of many lesser levels, beginning with the insight that knows nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Is there understanding right now of nama as nama and rupa as rupa? If not, then it means that this is the level we are still at. You mention 'insight meditation' and then 'the arising of insight' as something that occurs during insight meditation. I don't think the texts make this distinction. As far as the texts are concerned, the *development of insight* and a *moment of insight* are one and the same thing. As for how insight is developed (i.e., what conditions its arising), this is the general subject matter of the texts as a whole, and is what we are trying to elucidate through these discussions. But there's no specific 'practice' that can bring this on, as I understand. Jon 21988 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu May 8, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Conventional' and 'absolute' Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > How are the five aggregates to be understood? I would refer to the > discourse > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 > Khandha Sutta > Aggregates > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html > > for answer. Thanks for the reference. This sutta gives definitions of the 'five aggregates' and the 'five aggregates subject to clinging'. The definitions of the five aggregates are along the following lines: (1) Whatever there exists of corporeal things [rupa] ... all that belongs to the corporeality group [rupa-khandha]. (2) Whatever there exists of feeling [vedana] ... all that belongs to the feeling group [vedana-khandha] (3) Whatever there exists of perception [sanna] ... all that belongs to the perception group [sanna-khandha] (4) Whatever there exists of mental formations [sankhara] ... all that belongs to the mental formations group [sankhara-khandha] (5) Whatever there exists of consciousness [vinnana] ... all that belongs to the consciousness-group [vinnana-khandha]. In SN XXII, 56, the five aggregates are described in further detail as follows: (1) The 4 primary elements and corporeality depending thereon. (2) 6 classes of feeling: feeling due to visual impression, to sound impression, to odour impression, to taste impression, to bodily impression, and to mind impression.... (3) 6 classes of perception: perception of visual objects, of sounds, of odours, of tastes, of bodily impressions, and of mental impressions.... (4) 6 classes of volitional states (cetaná): volition with regard to visual objects, to sounds, to odours, to tastes, to bodily impressions and to mind objects.... (5) 6 classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness." Then in SN V, 10 the passage we are discussing in our other thread: "When all constituent parts are there, The designation 'cart' is used; Just so, where the five groups exist, Of 'living being' do we speak." Thanks for the reference. Jon Source for the above extracts and summaries is Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' at: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/khandha.htm 21989 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu May 8, 2003 5:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Mike --- "m. nease" wrote: > In your discussion with Victor, Victor posted > the link to the Khanda Sutta. It's divided into two parts--the > first, the > aggregates (khandas) and second, the clinging aggregates > (upaadaanakhandas?). The distinction between the two is that each > clinging > aggregate "is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with > mental fermentation [aasava, if my Pali is correct]". I take the > definition of > aasava in this context to be "ideas which intoxicate the mind". In > CMA, > Compendium of the Unwholesome, Taints (Aasavaa) (p. 75), the third > aasava is > di.t.thaasavo, or the taint (or intoxicant) of wrong views. So > wrong views > apparently are an aspect of clinging in the sense of the clinging > aggregates > (maybe what you were referring to?). The translation as 'clinging aggregates' for 'upadana-khandha' may be a little confusing. A better translation perhaps is Bh. Bodhi's 'aggregates subject to clinging', in other words, aggregates that are clung-to. As I understand it, 'upadana-khandhas' means the same as 'khandhas', except that the cittas and cetasikas associated with the moment of path-consciousness cannot be the object of clinging and therefore are not included within the upadana-khandhas. I hope this answers your question, Mike. Jon 21990 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu May 8, 2003 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma fundamentalism Yasa You say: "If someone says that meditation is not necessary to attain nibbana, he is getting far away from the Buddha's teachings." Well, I can only say it depends on what you mean by 'meditation' ;-)). I'd be interested to know what your understanding is of this term (as far as I know, it's not a term used in the suttas). Jon --- yasalalaka wrote: > Jon > ... > If someone says that meditation is not necessary to attain nibbana, > he is getting far away from the Buddha's teachings. The eightfold- > path, is divided into three groups, the sila, samadhi and panna. > It > has to be followed together , you cannot skip sila and do samadhi > and panna, nor do sila and skip samadhi to arrive at panna. It has > to be followed in that order, as a whole. I have seen some say, > that > one could start from panna , that is like putting the cart before > the horse. > > All of Buddha's teachings connects up to one whole Dhamma. Each > has its importance , Abhidhamma could be used as a corollary to > meditation. It may help to understand the paramatta dhamma in > relation to insight meditation. But Abhidhamma will be understood > through successful meditation practice, without a special attempt > to do so !! > > But I find that it is invaluable to understand, Buddha's teaching > in > intellectualy, or scientifically , without making it the essential > dhamma for those who seek freedom from the bonds of Samsara. > > With metta, > Yasa 21991 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu May 8, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as arising and falling away KKT Thanks for your careful summary of the discussion, and your very pertinent question. --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Dear Jon, ... > KKT: You make a very clear > distinction in the understanding > of the arising and falling away > of a 'conventional' thing and > a paramattha dhamma. > > The arising and falling away of the > former could only be known by deduction > while the latter by direct experience. Just to clarify slightly here. On my reading of the texts, the arising and falling away spoken of by the Buddha is the arising and falling away of paramattha dhammas, and the so-called arising and falling away of conventional objects has no relevance as far as the development of the path is concerned. > But I am sure that most people > on this list even while talking > about the arising and falling away > of the paramattha dhammas have > only an 'intellectual' understanding > and do not directly experience it. > Therefore it is not different from > the understanding of someone > in the case of a 'conventional' object. The intellectual understanding of the teachings that is a prerequisite for the arising of insight knowledge (direct understanding) is an intellectual understanding that is accompanied by panna. However, the understanding of 'truths' about conventional objects is not an aspect of panna, and I would not see the 2 as being in any way similar. > Do you think that by accumulating > such 'intellectual' understandings > you arrive some day at a direct > experience of paramattha dhammas ? I believe it's quite clear from the teachings that an intellectual understanding of the teachings is one of the prerequisites for development of the path. But there are other prerequisites as well, including association with the right people, hearing the teachings explained in a manner that is appropriate for our level of understanding, reflecting on what has been heard, and so on. There is no 'simple formula' for arriving at the direct experience of paramattha dhammas, as far as I know! Jon 21992 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 8, 2003 7:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Computer as arising and falling away Hi Jon (and KKT), Pardon me for jumping. I would say that: Both the so-called "paramattha dhammas" and "conventional objects" are impermanent, dukkha, not self, and there is nothing special about the so-called "paramattha dhammas". Both the so-called "paramattha dhammas" and "conventional objects" are to be seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They I am not. They are not my self." Seeing thus, one grows dispassionate towards them. The goal is liberation, not some special direction experience with the so- called "paramattha dhammas." Your feedback is much appreciated. Thanks. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > KKT > > Thanks for your careful summary of the discussion, and your very > pertinent question. > > --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > > Dear Jon, > ... > > KKT: You make a very clear > > distinction in the understanding > > of the arising and falling away > > of a 'conventional' thing and > > a paramattha dhamma. > > > > The arising and falling away of the > > former could only be known by deduction > > while the latter by direct experience. > > Just to clarify slightly here. On my reading of the texts, the > arising and falling away spoken of by the Buddha is the arising and > falling away of paramattha dhammas, and the so-called arising and > falling away of conventional objects has no relevance as far as the > development of the path is concerned. > > > But I am sure that most people > > on this list even while talking > > about the arising and falling away > > of the paramattha dhammas have > > only an 'intellectual' understanding > > and do not directly experience it. > > Therefore it is not different from > > the understanding of someone > > in the case of a 'conventional' object. > > The intellectual understanding of the teachings that is a > prerequisite for the arising of insight knowledge (direct > understanding) is an intellectual understanding that is accompanied > by panna. However, the understanding of 'truths' about conventional > objects is not an aspect of panna, and I would not see the 2 as being > in any way similar. > > Do you think that by accumulating > > such 'intellectual' understandings > > you arrive some day at a direct > > experience of paramattha dhammas ? > > I believe it's quite clear from the teachings that an intellectual > understanding of the teachings is one of the prerequisites for > development of the path. > > But there are other prerequisites as well, including association with > the right people, hearing the teachings explained in a manner that is > appropriate for our level of understanding, reflecting on what has > been heard, and so on. > > There is no 'simple formula' for arriving at the direct experience of > paramattha dhammas, as far as I know! > > Jon 21993 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 8, 2003 7:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Computer as arising and falling away Hi Jon (and KKT), Erratum: "Pardon me for jumping." should be read "Pardon me for jumping in." Regards, Victor PS. If I jumped, pardon me as well. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Jon (and KKT), > > Pardon me for jumping. [snip] > > Regards, > Victor 21994 From: m. nease Date: Thu May 8, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! Hi Victor, ----- Original Message ----- From: yu_zhonghao To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 8:03 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Free Will or Not? - Draft for comment! > Hi Mike, > > Thanks for the reply! > > I would say that each of us can choose our action. However, I would > not characterize us as actor or motivator. Conventionally speaking, I agree with you completely and that the Buddha frequently exhorted people to kusala kamma (though I've been unable to find a single instance of the Buddha instructing people to 'choose' per se). > Regarding the Buddha's teaching: > > To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind -- > this is the teaching of the Buddhas. Thanks, Victor--same answer as above. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/14.html > > One can avoid all evil, one can cultivate good, one can cleanse > one's mind!! Again, as above--conventionally speaking. I think that the point on which we may disagree is that of the two different modes of speech defined in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary'. Jon posted this last month but it seems pertinent enough to post it again: paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desaná): 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohára-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance with undeluded insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech (vohára-vacana). It is one of the main characteristics of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, in distinction from most of the Sutta Pitaka, that it does not employ conventional language, but deals only with ultimates, or realities in the highest sense (paramattha-dhammá). But also in the Sutta Pitaka there are many expositions in terms of ultimate language (paramattha-desaná), namely, wherever these texts deal with the groups (khandha), elements (dhátu) or sense-bases (áyatana), and their components; and wherever the 3 characteristics (ti-lakkhana) are applied. The majority of Sutta texts, however, use the conventional language, as appropriate in a practical or ethical context, because it "would not be right to say that 'the groups' (khandha) feel shame, etc." So, conventionally speaking, "One can avoid all evil, one can cultivate good, one can cleanse one's mind!!" Ultimately speaking, there's no 'one' in the clinging aggregates to avoid, cultivate or cleanse--just the continual arising and subsiding of paramattha dhammaa and concepts. When you write, "One can avoid all evil, one can cultivate good, one can cleanse one's mind!!", you aren't suggesting that there's 'one' (as in 'someone') in (or that 'one' somehow exists) in the five clinging-aggregates, are you? And, if not, how do you explain this difference in expression, so common in the suttas, unless by the 'conventional vs. ultimate' as explained above? > Regards, > Victor Best regards to you, Victor. Mike 21996 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu May 8, 2003 0:22pm Subject: Re: A Grimm recipe Hello Andrew, > Nagasena denies that one can identify phenomena and say "This is > contact, this is sensation, this is will, this is consciousness, this > is idea, this is discursive thinking." Nagasena likens the situation > to a cook preparing a soup for a prince using various ingredients. > Once the soup is made, the cook cannot separate the ingredients and > say "This is sour cream. This is salt. This is sweet. etc" They are > all lost in the unity of the soup. > What IS Nagasena saying? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. > Metta > Andrew My thoughts are: What is the metaphor? Does soup stand for the experience of an object? Is Nagasena pointing out that the conventional, thinking mind does not know the difference between the sense object (rupa), and the mentality (nama), that experiences it? Or, does soup stand for citta and the ingredients for cetasikas? Without knowing the context, I can only guess. Perhaps Nagasena is making the observation that conventional wisdom does not know dhammas any more than it knows the ingredients in soup. This obvious fact is not always so obvious. I think we have all tried to force dhammas out into the open (by concentrating and by trying to stop thought). But only dhammas experience dhammas, the conventional mind knows concepts (soup). At a moment of seeing, the various cetasikas that experience visible object, flavour the citta. There is no separate moment of experience for each individual cetasika (ingredient). Perhaps this is the point? However, a subsequent mind-door process can take an individual cetasika as its object. The actual cetasika has just fallen away but subsequent cittas can see it just as we can hear a reverberating gong when it is no longer being struck. So what was Nagasena's point? I think we both need to go back to our ADL reading. Kind regards, Ken H 21997 From: yasalalaka Date: Thu May 8, 2003 2:40pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Yasa (and Sukin), > > Interesting post, and pardon me for jumping in. > > I would say that: > > Seeing oneself as "paramatta dhammas" is self-view. The view "I am > a panca-upadankkhandha" is self-view. Paramatta dhammas and panca- > upadankkhanadha are to be see as they actually are thus: "They are > not mine. They I am not. They are not my self." > > Your feedback is appreciated. Thanks. > > Regards, > Victor > > > How many of us see ourselves as mere "paramatta dhammas"- > pancakkhanda ? We cannot see that unless we develop our minds > through meditation to the level of a Sakadhagami, because in the > existence of a being in the samsara, he is not a mere panchakkhandha, but he is a panca-upadankkhandha . He is blinded by clinging, to a "self". Therefore, he does not see ultimate reality. With metta, Yasa Victor, I understand the point, I was merely stating the aspect of clinging that creates the delusion of a self,that he would not like to let go. But, one should just see the nama-rupa as they arise,and fall away, without saying "that is not me, not myself". Because in saying that too, there is a "seeing" of a self .....! with metta, Yasa 21998 From: Date: Thu May 8, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Way 86, Mental Objects Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Mental Objects The Five Hindrances 1. Sensuality continued: [All of the following is subcommentary] Hindrances have to be cast out first in the course of proper training. With the casting out of the hindrances there is induced jhana, the means of attaining quietude. Thus indeed is body-contemplation surely taught with quietude preceding. Afterwards is given the higher instruction in regard to all divisions beginning with what should be understood -- the aggregations and the sense-base which ought to be understood, and the factors of enlightenment which should be developed. Therefore, here too, the development of quietude is desired so far as it is for the sake of insight. It is said: "The instruction on the Arousing of Mindfulness has insight as the chief thing, abounds in insight." Since there is no state of yoking together of the good and the bad moral qualities similar to the yoking of two bulls to a cart, -- since the good and the bad do not exist together -- from the absence of sensuality at the time of seeing one's mind through knowledge it is said: by way of occurrence. At the moment of seeing wisely the occurrence of sense-desire there is no sense-desire as good and bad states of mind cannot exist together Existing means: When it is found in one's own mental flux. ["Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'Mental objects exist,' to the extent necessary for just knowledge and remembrance and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world."] Sensuously inauspicious or unpromising objects are the ten inanimate things: (1) The corpse that is swollen, (2) Blue, (3) Festering, (4) Fissured, (5) Mangled, (6) Dismembered, (7) Cut and dismembered, (8) With blood, (9) Wormy, (10) Become a skeleton. Details of these may be found in The Path of Purity in the exposition of the subject of meditation on the foul.. And the perception of hair of the head and so forth, because it is called in the Girimananda Sutta the perception of the sensuously inauspicious or impure, is taken as the sensuously inauspicious animate thing. The jhana on the sensuously inauspicious object occurs in an inanimate or animate sensuously inauspicious thing. And the indication of the four kinds of wrong reflection and the four kinds of right reflection in regard to the sensuously inauspicious object is for the purpose of pointing out fully the subject. The four kinds of consideration of the impure as pure, the impermanent as permanent, suffering as pleasure, and non-soul as soul are the four kinds of wrong reflection and the four kinds of consideration of the impure as impure and so forth are the four kinds of right reflection. The taking up of the practice of considering the repulsiveness of any of the eleven kinds of the sensuously inauspicious or the practice of contemplation on the sensuously inauspicious object is "taking up" or "upholding." The application to the development of the thought bent on the sensuously inauspicious object which brings partial and full concentration is application for the development of the jhana on the sensuously inauspicious subject of meditation. Certain teachers say that as there is no opportunity for sense-desire in him who knows the proper measure of food to be taken, through absence of trouble owing to that knowledge from sloth and torpor, sense-desire is cast out in such a person. Just this reason is given in even the expository portion: The person who practices moderation in food brings about the perception of impurity bound up with that food, for instance, through the alteration of food by way of bodily excretions, and dwells on other similar thoughts as well as on the idea of corporeal subjection to food. Such a person casts out sense-desire. The Elder Tissa referred to in the commentary above is the Elder Maha Tissa (of Anuradhapura), who saw the teeth of a woman and who by doing right reflection on their bony nature cast out sense-desire through jhana. According to the Abhidhamma method of instruction, even the whole world is the hindrance of sense-desire. Therefore the commentator said: through the attainment of the path of arahantship [abhidhamma pariyayena sabbo pi loko kamacchandanivarananti aha arahattamaggenati]. ["Sense-desire cast out by these six things becomes incapable of arising, in the future, through the attainment of the path of saintship."] 21999 From: peterdac4298 Date: Thu May 8, 2003 7:14pm Subject: Long time, no see. Hello all, Have been off list awhile, but been lurking from time to time, especially when in need of stability, inspiration and some cool reflection. What sticks to my mind in particular is a post from Christine referring to her appearances on other lists. She was, I think, explaining to some interfaith types that Buddhism was the odd one out and not like other theistic religions. I then came across a book on the Wisdom Books site, quite by chance as usual; "Inner Christianity" Smoley, Richard; Shambhala :- http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?CatNumber=10708 A couple of quotes which particularly interested me:- ...Some of these works suggest that early Christians not only reached insights similar to those of the Eastern religions but also had a sophisticated understanding of human consciousness in their own right. Many were concerned with what they called gnosis, a word that means "knowledge" in Greek. This is knowledge of a very specific kind —direct, intuitive knowing that surpasses ordinary reason and confers spiritual liberation. Gnosis strongly resembles enlightenment as portrayed in Hinduism and Buddhism.... ...Knowledge that liberates consciousness is often described as esoteric. The word "esoteric" is somewhat forbidding, usually connoting something obscure, exotic, and irrelevant to daily life — in short, something "far out." But etymologically the word means exactly the opposite: it comes from the Greek 'esotero', which means "further in." You have to go "further in" yourself to understand what this knowledge is about. In this book I will use the terms "inner Christianity" and "esoteric Christianity" interchangeably.'... What I got from this was two points: Firstly, that 'gnosis' seemed to come very close to 'sati' knowing and remembering. And secondly that what they endeavoured to know was God, which presumably would include the Uncreated aspect of the Creator. Although this lacks the Buddhist discipline of stripping out all notions of a self and all self view, I do feel a Buddhist's duty should include pointing out these aspects of the theistic religions to those who showed any such interest. This is just a thought and well outside of the dsg remit. But had hoped it emphasised the role of sati, simply 'just knowing', in a wider context, so won't be taking it any further. Cheers Peter