23600 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections. Epilogue 1. I > apologize for the length but I really like this and > and had a hard time > deciding where to draw the line. Hello Connie. An excelent excerpt of the Saddharma Pundarika Sutta (Lotus Sutra)! I am a beginner in this group, but I´ve found some discussions of Abhidhamma´s Citta and Cetasikas very illuminating indeed. And your quote of the Lotus Sutra is really refreshing after such hard climb reasoning! There´s a lot goin´ on!!! Metta, Ícarvs Maybe the hikers > will appreciate it > next time they find themselves standing in a dharma > rain. > peace, > connie > > This beneficent cloud is laden with moisture, > the lightening gleams and flashes, > and the sound of thunder reverberates afar, > causing the multitude to rejoice. > The sun's rays are veiled and hidden, > a clear coolness comes over the land; > masses of darkness descend and spread- > you can almost touch them. > The rain falls everywhere, > coming down on all four sides, > its flow and saturation are measureless, > reaching to every area of the earth, > to the ravines and valleys of the mountains and > streams, > to the remote and secluded places where grow > plants, bushes, medicinal herbs, > trees large and small, > a hundred grains, rice seedlings, > sugar cane, grape vines. > The rain moistens them all, > none fails to receive its full share, > the parched ground is everywhere watered, > herbs and trees alike grow lush. > What falls from the cloud > is water of a single flavor, > but the plants and trees, thickets and groves, > each accept the moisture that is appropriate to its > portion. > All the various trees, > whether superior, middling or inferior, > take what is fitting for large or small > and each is enabled to sprout and grow. > Root, stem, limb, leaf, > the glow and hue of flower and fruit- > one rain extends to them > and all are able to become fresh and glossy, > whether their allotment > of substance, form and nature is large or small, > the moistening they receive is one, > but each grows and flourishes in its own way. > The Buddha is like this > when he appears in the world, > comparable to a great cloud > that covers all things everywhere, > Having appeared in the world, > for the sake of living beings > he makes distinctions in expounding > the truth regarding phenomena. > The great sage, the World-Honored One, > to heavenly and human beings, > in the midst of all beings, > pronounces these words: > I am the Thus Come One, > most honored of two-legged beings. > I appear in the world > like a great cloud > that showers moisture upon > all the dry and withered living beings, > so that all are able to escape suffering, > gain the joy of peace and security, > the joys of this world > and the joy of nirvana. > All you heavenly and human beings of this assembly, > listen carefully and with one mind! > All of you should gather around > and observe the one of unexcelled honor. > I am the World-Honored One, > none can rival me. > In order to bring peace and security to living > beings > I have appeared it the world > and for the sake of this great assembly > I preach the sweet dew of the pure Law. > This Law is of a single flavor, > that of emancipation, nirvana. > With a single wonderful sound > I expound and unfold its meaning; > constantly for the sake of the Great Vehicle > I create causes and conditions. > I look upon all things > as being universally equal, > I have no mind to favor this or that, > to love one or hate another. > I am without greed or attachment > and without limitation or hindrance. > At all times, for all things > I preach the Law equally; > as I would for a single person, > that same way I do for numerous persons, > constantly I expound and preach the Law, > never have I done anything else, > coming, going, sitting, standing, > never to the end growing weary or disheartened. > I bring fullness and satisfaction to the world, > like rain that spreads its moisture everywhere, > Eminent and lowly, superior and inferior, > observers of precepts, violators of precepts, > those fully endowed with proper demeanor, > those not fully endowed, > those of correct views, of erroneous views, > of keen capacity, of dull capacity- > I cause the Dharma rain on all equally, > never lax or neglectful. > When all the various living beings > hear my Law, > they receive it according to their power, > dwelling in their different environments. > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23601 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 0:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Hi, Christine - In a message dated 7/23/03 3:36:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > You may be interested in this review of the book 'Innovative Buddhist > Women - Swimming against the Stream', (2000), Karma Lekshe Tsomo > (Ed), Curzon Press, Richmond, UK. Paperback. > Reviewed by Y.K. Yau > http://home.iprimus.com.au/zordon/Publication_Articles/Book% > 20review.htm > > "In her paper ` Inaccuracies in Buddhist Women's History', Bhikkuni > Kusuma turns an age-old misreading of the dual > ordination of women in the Buddhist canon on its head. Bhikkuni > Kusuma, a Pali scholar who received a Ph.D for her research > on Bhikkuni Vinaya (Buddhist Nun monastic discipline) could find no > canonical evidence to suggest that a nun's ordination is > only valid if it is witnessed by both orders, the order of monks and > the order of nuns. The truth is that it will suffice for the > order of monks to ordain a nun. > > > Neither could Bhikkuni Kusuma find any evidence to suggest that the > lifespan of the Buddha's dispensation will be shortened > on account of women's admission to the order. In fact, she found > evidence to the contrary in the Commentary of Buddhaghosa, a 5th > century Buddhist monk. She also argues that the eight special rules > (garudhammas) that Mahapajapati Gotami had accepted on her own behalf > to gain admission to the order did not apply to other nuns. This is > because the Buddha had > ordained his own aunt and stepmother when she was just a laywoman. It > was a quirk of history that caused controversy to > rage for 10 centuries. If the eight special rules were to apply to > other nuns, it would have meant nuns' subservience (not deference), > to monks. And that would be very contrary to the Buddha's > egalitarianism." > > metta and peace, > Christine > ================================ Hmm! Very interesting. I look forward to reading the review (and perhaps the book). Thank you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23602 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Nina: "For someone who does not practise jhana, there is also right concentration which is the proximate cause for insight. But this does not mean that he has to try and concentrate on nama and rupa. Satipatthana is not concentration." Hi Nina, I agree jhana and satipatthana are not the same thing but I would say jhana is a bundle of factors that include concentration and tranquility as foremost. I believe concentration is synonymous with one-pointedness (ekaggata cetasika), but as it is used here as proximate cause to understanding (panna) it means not wandering. In other words, not reacting but simply observing. What would you suggest as a proximate cause for this? Do you consider this proximate cause to be "born of seclusion from the hindrances" as piti is? Larry 23603 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort Hi, Rob (and Victor) - Please let me know if I am understanding you two correctly. I believe that you are saying that while engaged in a (possibly extended) action that is wholesome and useful and well motivated etc etc, there may occur many moments of felt unpleasantness (such as occur along with boredom, resistence [a form of aversion], and fatigue), such moments being akusala, yet the action as a whole is still a skillful one. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/23/03 5:32:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Victor, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > >Pardon me for jumping in. > > > >Skillful action, action that leads to what is profitable, with > happy > >consequences and happy results, is not necessarily pleasant to > do. > >Unskillful action, action that leads to what is unprofitable, with > >painful consequences and painful results, is not necessarily > >unpleasant to do. > > > >In other words, skillful action can be either pleasant or > unpleasant > >to do. Likewise for unskillful action. > > > >Any action that is unpleasant to do is not necessarily unskillful. > > > >Perhaps what is important is not so much to differentiate skillful > >actions from pleasant feelings but to discern skillful actions > from > >unskillful one, to know the wholesome as wholesome, the > unwholesome > >as unwholesome. > > > >Reference: > > > >Anguttara Nikaya IV.115 > >Thana Sutta > >Courses of Action > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-115.html > > Victor, thank you so much. I owe you big time for this. > > As I started to read your message, the following thoughts occured in > my mind, "How can Victor say that? Victor must know that the only > cittas associated with unpleasant feeling are akusala (rooted in > aversion)." > > In my mind, I started to craft a polite but firm reply saying, "No, > you're wrong!" > > Victor, that is when I noticed that you had included a link to a > Sutta (one that I had not read before). > > I read the Sutta slowly (I always read Suttas slowly). I then > understood that you were talking about "unpleasant courses of > action" whereas I was talking about "mental states associated with > unpleasant feeling". One might say that I was looking at the "micro" > view while you were looking at the "macro" view. > > I then asked myself, "Given the question asked by Cetasika, would it > be more appropriate to focus on macro issues or micro issues?" I > realized that I should present a balance of both to avoid confusion. > > Victor, I learned the following from this: > 1. I am sometimes too quick to judge > 2. I am sometimes unbalanced in my answers (micro vs. macro) > > Victor, thank you for teaching me two very valuable lessons. I > suspect that I will fall into similar traps in the future as > accumulations run deep. At least now, I can "post a sentinel" to try > and recognize these types of unskillful actions as they arise. > > Cetasika, if this exchange with my friend Victor has confused you, > please let me know and I will explain how we are both correct. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23604 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object condition Rob: "Once you hit the fifth jhana, the object is fixed. The object of the first level of arupavacara jhana is "infinite space" (plane 28). The object of the second level of arupavacara is "infinte consciousness" (plane 29). The object of the third level of arupavacara is "nothingness" (plane 30) and the object of the fourth level of arupavacara is "neither perception nor non-perception" (plane 31)." Hi Rob, These four objects are concepts, but they are also consciousnesses (experiences); or would you characterize the experience as a mode of tranquility that the concepts point to? You gave me rather more than I could digest concerning Path Condition. Could you decifer the abbreviations and give a very short explanation of the Conditioning States and Conditioned states for Path Condition in the table on p. 311, CMA? Maybe this weekend. No rush. Larry 23605 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Effort Hi Howard, Let me give an example to illustrate. Imagine that I am considering becoming a monk. I know that monks have to eat whatever food is given to them (Vinaya rules do not allow monks to choose their own food). Now I am a picky eater; I don't like seafood and I don't like spicy food. I am afraid that life as a monk might be quite unpleasant at times because I will be forced to eat food that I do not like (when somebody gives it to me). I know that becoming a monk is profitable; but I also know that it would be an unpleasant course of action (at times). According to the wonderful Sutta referenced by Victor, if I allow the knowledge that life as a monk is (at times) an unpleasant course of action to stop me from becoming a monk (which is profitable), then I am a fool. As you can see, this Sutta and the wisdom it contains operates at a completely different level ("macro") than the citta / cetasika level ("micro") that I was talking about. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Victor) - > > Please let me know if I am understanding you two correctly. I believe > that you are saying that while engaged in a (possibly extended) action that is > wholesome and useful and well motivated etc etc, there may occur many moments > of felt unpleasantness (such as occur along with boredom, resistence [a form > of aversion], and fatigue), such moments being akusala, yet the action as a > whole is still a skillful one. > > With metta, > Howard > 23606 From: Dr Jose M Sanz-Tonnelier Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Re: Update on Bhikkhuni Sangha Dear Friends, it is very easy to speack between us here and make comments and suggestions. When we monks are together, there is no way that a junior monk like me could question or correct a monk of 50 years. I will be told to be quiet and learnt from the senior monk. Ven. Ajahn Jose > --Venerable: last week I attended a funeral of a >>>theravatan monk and during one of the dhamma talks a very senior > theravatan > monk ( the most senior Laotian monk in Australia, from Brisbane) >>mention > that women do not reach nirvana, that they have two ways to go to > nirvana, >>>one is if they are reborn as MAN or if one of their children > becomes a monk. >>>So with this way of thinking, what change do women have to become > monks. > Metta. Ajahn Jose > -______________ > Dear Venerable Ajahn Jose, > With all due respect to the venerable bhikkhu I believe this is not > correct. A whole book of the Tipitaka (as howard mentions) is the > therigatha which is about arahant woman. The commentaries also talk > about kotis (thousands) of woman attaining all stages of > enlightenment. > > __________________________________________________ 23607 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: object condition Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "Once you hit the fifth jhana, the object is fixed. The object of > the first level of arupavacara jhana is "infinite space" (plane 28). The > object of the second level of arupavacara is "infinte consciousness" > (plane 29). The object of the third level of arupavacara is > "nothingness" (plane 30) and the object of the fourth level of > arupavacara is "neither perception nor non-perception" (plane 31)." > > Hi Rob, > > These four objects are concepts, but they are also consciousnesses > (experiences); or would you characterize the experience as a mode of > tranquility that the concepts point to? ===== "Infinite space" is a concept, it is the object of the first level of arupavacara citta. I am not sure what you mean by "they are also consciousnesses (experiences)". I am also not clear on what you mean by "characterize the experience as a mode of tranquility that the concepts point to". As one progresses through the first four jhanic states, one increasingly "refines the experience" by eliminating initial application (vitaka), sustained application (vicara), rapture (piti) and hapiness (sukha) - replaced by equanimity. Whereas the cetasikas associated with the rupavacara cittas change depending on the level, the cetasikas associated with the arupavacara cittas are all the same; they don't change as one progresses along the stages - the only thing that changes is the object of meditation. Here is a more complete description of the process taken from "Abhidhamma - Ultimate Science" by Dr. Mehm Tim Mon: The person who has developed the five rupa-jhanas may go up the ladder of concentration to arupa-jhanas. In doing so he uses the concentration associated with fifth rupa-jhana as his base. Also he has to reason about the unsatisfactoriness of the physical body and the troubles it develops on account of heat and cold, insect-bites, hunger and thirst, diseases, old age and death. When he feels detached from the physical body and rupa, he first develops the fifth jhana by meditating on the patibhaga-nimitta of pathava- kasina. He then comes out from the fifth jhana and, though the patibhaga-nimitta exists in his vision, he neglects it and tries to concentrate on the infinite space (akasa) beyond it and meditates "akasa, akasa" repeatedly. When his mild attachment (nikanti) for the patibhaga-nimitta disappears, the nimitta also suddenly disappears unfolding endless space. Concentrating his mindfulness on this endless space, he goes on meditating "akasa, akasa" till he reaches the first arupajhana. The jhana is called akasanancayatana kusala citta because it focuses on akasa. He then continues his meditation by concentrating his mindfulness on the akasanancayatana kusala citta; meditating `vittana, vittana' repeatedly till he reaches the second arupa-jhana. This jhana is called vinnanancayatana kusala citta. To develop the third arupa-jhana he focuses his attention not on the akasanancayatana kusala citta but on nothingness, meditating "Nathi Kitci" (there is nothing whatsoever) repeatedly till he reaches the jhana. This jhana is called akitcannayatana kusala citta – `akincanna' also means `nothingness'. By taking the third arupa-jhana consciousness as the object of meditation, he can further develop the fourth arupa- jhana. This jhana is called nevasanna-nasannayatana kusala citta. Nevasannanasannayatana literally means that "perception neither exists nor does not exist". It refers to the fact that the fourth arupa-jhana consciousness is so subtle and refined that one cannot definitely say whether there is a consciousness or not. Consciousness is no longer noticeable the state of this jhana. All the four arupa-jhana belong to the category of the fifth jhana because they are based on the fifth rupa-jhana. They all have only two jhana-factors, namely upekkha and ekaggata. It should be noted that the five rupa-jhanas differ from one another in the number of jhana-factors whereas the four arupajhanas differ from one another in the objects of meditation. Sorry Larry, this is probably more than you were asking for. > > You gave me rather more than I could digest concerning Path Condition. > Could you decifer the abbreviations and give a very short explanation of > the Conditioning States and Conditioned states for Path Condition in the > table on p. 311, CMA? Maybe this weekend. No rush. I will give you more information on Path condition on Sunday. Metta, Rob M :-) 23608 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/23/03 8:32:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Let me give an example to illustrate. > > Imagine that I am considering becoming a monk. I know that monks > have to eat whatever food is given to them (Vinaya rules do not > allow monks to choose their own food). Now I am a picky eater; I > don't like seafood and I don't like spicy food. I am afraid that > life as a monk might be quite unpleasant at times because I will be > forced to eat food that I do not like (when somebody gives it to > me). I know that becoming a monk is profitable; but I also know that > it would be an unpleasant course of action (at times). According to > the wonderful Sutta referenced by Victor, if I allow the knowledge > that life as a monk is (at times) an unpleasant course of action to > stop me from becoming a monk (which is profitable), then I am a fool. > > As you can see, this Sutta and the wisdom it contains operates at a > completely different level ("macro") than the citta / cetasika level > ("micro") that I was talking about. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ================== Yes, I understand. Thank you. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23609 From: Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object condition Thanks Rob, I'm not sure what I was asking about the formless jhanas. The relationship between the jhana citta and the jhana object is so subtle maybe it can't be hashed out. Thanks for the quote. Very interesting. Larry 23610 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:22pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi RobM, Victor and Cetasika, I am never confident about the interpretation of suttas and the Thana Sutta (sp?) is no exception but this is how it seems to me, I wonder if you will agree: There are four courses of action: 1. unpleasant and unprofitable: An example that comes to mind is, 'striving to harvest unripened crops.' No one is likely to do that. 2. unpleasant and profitable: -- striving to harvest ripened crops. A wise person would do that. 3. pleasant and unprofitable: -- resting while ripened crops rot in the field. A fool would do that. 4. pleasant and profitable: -- resting while unripened crops ripen in the field. Everyone is likely to do that. In the Thana Sutta, only concepts are directly referred to. The conventional advice it contains could be given by any wise person -- an agricultural scientist, for example. Moreover, the conventional advice is unsatisfactory. We know from experience, that courses of action are neither entirely pleasant nor entirely unpleasant. When striving in the field, we can have pleasant experiences of a cool breeze and when resting on the verandah, we can be annoyed by biting insects; there are always moments of pleasure and pain, however brief. The same applies to the profitability and unprofitability of courses of action; in our world, none of these things is clear cut and absolute. However, the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and so, when he delivered the Thana Sutta, the meaning was profound and entirely satisfactory -- knowable only to the wise, unknowable to the fool: 1. dukkha When there is the concept of a course of action (unpleasant or pleasant, profitable or unprofitable), there is, in truth, dukkha. When there is the concept of living being (foolish or wise), there is, in truth, dukkha. The Noble Ones -- the wisest of beings -- directly know that only dhammas are real and that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. 2. the cause of dukkha When there is desire to follow one of the four courses of action or when there is desire for existence, then there is the cause of dukkha. 3. the cessation of dukkha The cessation of desire, and thereby of dukkha, is Nibbana. 4. the path The understanding, thought, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness and concentration that are unique to the Noble Ones, lead to Nibbana. Corrections welcome, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-115.html > > Victor, thank you so much. I owe you big time for this. > > As I started to read your message, the following thoughts occured in > my mind, "How can Victor say that? Victor must know that the only > cittas associated with unpleasant feeling are akusala (rooted in > aversion)." > > In my mind, I started to craft a polite but firm reply saying, "No, > you're wrong!" > > Victor, that is when I noticed that you had included a link to a > Sutta (one that I had not read before). > > I read the Sutta slowly (I always read Suttas slowly). I then > understood that you were talking about "unpleasant courses of > action" whereas I was talking about "mental states associated with > unpleasant feeling". One might say that I was looking at the "micro" > view while you were looking at the "macro" view. > > I then asked myself, "Given the question asked by Cetasika, would it > be more appropriate to focus on macro issues or micro issues?" 23611 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:00pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Ken H, In many Suttas (Mn63, Sn LVI.31, etc.) the Buddha stressed that his teaching is connected with the goal, relates to the rudiments of the holy life, and leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening and to unbinding (i.e. Nibbana). Your harvesting analogies are accurate, but it is difficult to link these analogies to the Buddha's stated goal of his teaching. The Buddha understood human nature extremely well and realized that there would be fools who avoided the holy life because they were picky eaters (to use my analogy). I interpret this Sutta as an admonishment to fools such as this. I did not understand your linkage between this Sutta and the four noble truths. Can you explain the linkage another way to help me to understand. Does anybody have the commentary to this Sutta? What does it say? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi RobM, Victor and Cetasika, > > I am never confident about the interpretation of suttas and > the Thana Sutta (sp?) is no exception but this is how it > seems to me, I wonder if you will agree: > > There are four courses of action: > > 1. unpleasant and unprofitable: > > An example that comes to mind is, 'striving to > harvest unripened crops.' No one is likely to do that. > > 2. unpleasant and profitable: > > -- striving to harvest ripened crops. A wise person > would do that. > > > 3. pleasant and unprofitable: > > -- resting while ripened crops rot in the field. A > fool would do that. > > > 4. pleasant and profitable: > > -- resting while unripened crops ripen in the field. > Everyone is likely to do that. > > > In the Thana Sutta, only concepts are directly referred > to. The conventional advice it contains could be > given by any wise person -- an agricultural scientist, > for example. > > Moreover, the conventional advice is unsatisfactory. We > know from experience, that courses of action are neither > entirely pleasant nor entirely unpleasant. When striving > in the field, we can have pleasant experiences of a cool > breeze and when resting on the verandah, we can be > annoyed by biting insects; there are always moments of > pleasure and pain, however brief. > > The same applies to the profitability and unprofitability > of courses of action; in our world, none of these things > is clear cut and absolute. > > However, the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and so, > when he delivered the Thana Sutta, the meaning was > profound and entirely satisfactory -- knowable only to > the wise, unknowable to the fool: > > 1. dukkha > > When there is the concept of a course of action > (unpleasant or pleasant, profitable or unprofitable), > there is, in truth, dukkha. When there is the concept of > living being (foolish or wise), there is, in truth, > dukkha. The Noble Ones -- the wisest of beings -- > directly know that only dhammas are real and that all > conditioned dhammas are dukkha. > > 2. the cause of dukkha > > When there is desire to follow one of the four > courses of action or when there is desire for > existence, then there is the cause of dukkha. > > 3. the cessation of dukkha > > The cessation of desire, and thereby of dukkha, is > Nibbana. > > 4. the path > > The understanding, thought, speech, action, livelihood, > effort, mindfulness and concentration that are unique to > the Noble Ones, lead to Nibbana. > > > Corrections welcome, > Ken H 23612 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort > Does anybody have the commentary to this Sutta? What > does it say? Hi Great Rob !!! The sutta mentioned on above is a member of the Anguttara Nikaya recollection (IV.115):How can you recognize a good and wise person and their four traits of recognition. Metta, Ícarvs 23613 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Peter Thanks for this info, and glad to hear you'll be around for the next week or so at least. I believe you were a monk previously -- was that in the Ajahn Maha Boowa group also? If so, you should have a good chance of being accepted; otherwise I have heard that ordination is more difficult for 'walk-in' candidates these days. Please feel free to give us a report or 2 of life in the north-east and especially of any monasteries you visit. I expect many of our members would be quite interested to hear. Jon --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi Jon et al > > Thanks for the offer. Right now I'm in Udon, holed up for a couple > of weeks, so have a chance to access DSG from a local Internet Cafe. > With more time to hand, can be a little more coherent. I do > apreciate > your offers for assistance, very heartening to know. My first aim > is to > visit Ajahn Maha Boowa at Wat Pa Baan Taad, hence the Udon stop. > After that I have not made any plans, as I am rather hoping to be > accepted (ie ordained) into his group. Since this is largely a > collection of > forest monasteries where the focus is on simplicity and training > through > the implementation of the Vinaya, I rather doubt if I'll have many > opportunities to get online during the next few years. However, 23614 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Larry Thanks very much for starting this series. Regarding your question, I think there are some omitted words in the text here. The words explaining the benefits that have been acquired have been replaced in the text by the words "[described in Chs. XII and XIII]", which you did not quote (no doubt thinking them superflous) but without which the passage doesn't have proper meaning. The passage dealing with the benefits of concentration actually begins at Ch. XI, 120 (they are fivefold)and, on my reading, are set out at XI, 120 to 124, and amplified at Chs. XII and XIII. (They might be worth discussing also at some stage.) I hope this give the answer you were looking for. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi all, > > Would someone like to say a few words on this sentence: > > "And that [consciousness] has been developed in all its aspects by > the > bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of > concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the > benefits." > > Larry 23615 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Rob M I am not sure how apt your analogy the observer of a billiard game is. The only 'world' that is to be understood according to the teachings is the world of the six senses, not the world at large (which I see as being analogous to the billiard game). The world of the six senses does not bear any direct relationship to the world at large. Jon --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Let me try to express this concept another way. > > "The world" operates as a natural system according to a set of > rules > (niyama). There is no "self" with "objective observer" status. The > stream of nama-rupa called "Rob" is not separate from "the world", > rather it is part of "the world"; subject to the same set of rules. > > This stream of nama-rupa has the capacity to impact "the world". > > As an analogy, imagine you are watching a billiard game. If you are > sitting in the stands or watching on TV, it is clear what is > happening (you have "objective observer" status). Now imagine that > you are a very, very small bug resting on the cue-ball. The > perspective of the small bug living on the cue ball limits the > level > of understanding it can achieve (this is my understanding of > Godel's > incompleteness theorem). To "see things as they truly are", the > small bug must be able to get off of the cue ball to be able to > take an objective observer status. 23616 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear group (Larry, a small question for you below), From my study of this passage in Pali so far, I think ~Naan.namoli's as well as Tin's translations do not convey the basic sentence structure as found in the Pali. The problem is that the whole passage is actually one sentence made up of many clauses and subclauses even though in some of the editions (HOS, CSCD, Rewata) the Pali has been broken up into smaller sentences. But because of the presence of the correlatives: 'yasmaa' (because, since) and 'tasmaa' (therefore) marking two major clauses, I have to agree with the Thai reading (Budsir) that it's really all one sentence and by no means easy to translate as such into English. The kernel as I'm understanding it is: Now, because (yasmaa) concentration has thus been developed by the bhikkhu, and furthermore, (because) understanding has next to be developed; and (because) this {understanding) is not easy to even understand, let alone develop; therefore (tasmaa) the following is a set of questions to show a detailed explanation (of understanding) and its method of development: [list of questions]. Some interesting details in the Maha Tika: there is a complete listing of the "aspects" in "in all its aspects" (sabbaakaarena). For "comes next": in the order of the teaching and in the order of the practice (desanaakkamena pa.tipattikkamena ca). A clear indication that, in practice, the development of concentration precedes that of understanding. I think (with) "direct-knowledge" (abhi~n~naavasena) could be plural (I'm thinking of the five). 'vasena' can also mean: by way of, through the influence of, by virtue of. To Larry: In "And that has yet to be developed." Does your edition actually read 'yet'? I ask this because mine has 'still'. Maybe you have a newer revised edition. Best wishes, Jim > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV > > 1. Now concentration was described under the heading of "Consciousness" > in the stanza. > > 'When a wise man, established well in Virtue, develops Consciousness and > understanding'. > > And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is > thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that > has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits. But "Understanding" > comes next. And that has yet to be developed. Now that is not easy, > firstly even to know about, let alone to develop, when it is taught very > briefly. In order, therefore, to deal with the detailed method of its > development there is the following set of questions: [...] 23617 From: christhedis Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:27am Subject: Vedanta, Atma Vichara Greetings all, This is from Message #22812, which was a reply over a month ago to a thread I started about meditation vs. thinking. In reviewing the replies to this thread, I wanted to pick up on something RobertK said, but as a new topic. By the way, I read and re-read all the replies and found them informative and helpful. I am very grateful for the help. > > Thus, is it possible to deeply understand the teachings through > mere "everyday contemplation", and if not, why not? Is meditation > necessary because it slows the mind and allows for the clearest type of > insight? > > _______ -Dear Chris, -I picked up a magazine yesterday that compared yoga and Buddhism and -an article 'explained' that vedanta was the same as Buddhism because -by meditation both showed that everything was impermanent, dukkha -and not-self. Except that vedanta went further and revealed -the 'underlying basis upon which the world rests' (I forget the -exact phrase). This is what the writer believes. - -Robertk Now for my new topic: I've studied a bit of vedanta, as well as Atma Vichara. It seems to me as though these 'philosophies' do indeed lead one to the understanding of impermanence and not-self, hence similar to Buddhism in where the student is lead. Would others in this group agree that they are somewhat 'similar means to the same end'? Is it meant to be possible to even reach nibbana through these other philosophies? Thus, could they be said to be 'alternate paths' to enlightenment? As for vedanta going further and revealing the 'underlying basis', I found vedanta to be highly theoretical after a point. I had no reason to believe or not to believe in this underlying basis. Buddhism, on the other hand, seems to be more scientific, no theoretical possibilities to believe in. Comments? Chris. 23618 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:40am Subject: FW: Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, no 2 ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 21:31:47 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, no 2 Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, no 2 2 B: tattha bhagavaa supupphitasaalavanamajjhagato Then the Exalted One went into the middle of a flowering Salgrove, subhuumiotara.natthaaya nikkhantamattavaravaara.no viya virocittha, splendid as a superb elephant that departs in order to descend to the battle field, raahulabhaddo ca varavaara.nassa pacchato nikkhantagajapotako viya. and Lucky Rahula was like the elephant young departing behind the superb elephant. bhagavaa saayanhasamaye ma.niguhato nikkhamitvaa gocara.m pa.tipanno kesarasiiho viya, The Exalted One was like a maned lion that departs towards evening from his jewelled cave and wanders about in his field, raahulabhaddo ca siihamigaraajaana.m anubandhanto nikkhantasiihapotako viya. and Lucky Rahula was like a lion¹s young that departs following the lion, the king of animals. bhagavaa ma.nipabbatasassirikavanasa.n.dato daa.thabalo mahaabyaggho viya, The Exalted One was like a great tiger with strong teeth, emerging from the splendid jungle thicket of the jewelled mountain, raahulabhaddo ca byaggharaajaana.m anubandhabyagghapotako viya. and Lucky Rahula was like the tiger¹s young following the king of tigers. English: Then the Exalted One went into the middle of a flowering Salgrove, splendid as a superb elephant that departs in order to descend to the battle field, and Lucky Rahula was like the elephant young departing behind the superb elephant. The Exalted One was like a maned lion that departs towards evening from his jewelled cave and wanders about in his field, and Lucky Rahula was like a lion¹s young that departs following the lion which is the king of animals. The Exalted One was like a majestic tiger with strong teeth, emerging from the splendid jungle thicket of the jewelled mountain, and Lucky Rahula was like the tiger¹s young following the king of tigers. Nina. 23619 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inquiry to Nina... Dear Kio, op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > the aim is understanding of mind- > matter relationship, by dissecting or rather becoming aware of > specific happenings that we experience in our daily life (that we > were unaware of before). Such insight will enable us to become > aware of what is going on – in terms of cause and effect > relationship My Time with A. Sujin 7. During a pilgrimage in India with A. Sujin, Phra Dhammadharo, Jonothan and other friends we discussed Dhamma all night in the train to Bodhgaya. During that night we discussed the difference between thinking of nama and rupa and direct awareness of them. We may notice that realities appear through different doorways, that sound is experienced through ears and hardness is experienced through the bodysense. However, we may take noticing realities for direct awareness of them. A. Sujin said, ³You may believe, ŒI have developed a great deal of understanding, I sees that there is nothing else but nama and rupa.¹ ² She then explained that in reality this is only thinking, not direct understanding of one nama or rupa at a time. Hearing is nama, it experiences sound. Sound is rupa, it does not experience anything. When hearing arises we think almost immediately of the meaning of the sound, its origin, of words which were spoken and the meaning of those words. Thinking is another type of nama, different from hearing. Her remarks were an eye-opener to me. This shows again how important discussions on the Dhamma are. Without them our misunderstandings of the Dhamma would not appear. That night in the train passed very quickly, and before we realized it we were in Bodhgaya. One of our friends offered breakfast to Phra Dhammadharo and to the Samanera (novice) who was also present. We also stayed in Varanasi, in Hotel de Paris. When we were walking in the garden of that hotel, we heard a band with drums, and immediately we had an image of people marching and playing. A. Sujin explained that we build up stories on account of what we experience through the senses. Sound, hearing and thinking are ultimate realities, the stories we think of are concepts or ideas, different from ultimate realities. It is difficult to distinguish different realities, it is direct understanding, panna, that is able to do so. Panna cannot suddenly arise, it is gradually developed by studying, considering what we learn, discussing, asking questions. We may be thinking of ourselves and others, walking in the garden of Hotel de Paris, but if we die now, the story comes to an end. Actually, each citta that falls away is a moment of dying. With the citta that falls away, the story comes to an end. Many years later Lodewijk and I walked to Hotel de Paris again, and then we saw that it had become neglected and that nothing of it¹s old glory was left. If we try to separate nama from rupa or if we try to think of both nama and rupa, there is only thinking, no awareness of either of them. One may believe that knowing what is going on is right awareness. Someone may know that he sees or that he hears, but that is not satipaììhåna. When right awareness arises it is mindful of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time. Right mindfulness and right understanding arise when there are conditions for their arising. They are conditioned by study, listening and considering the Dhamma one heard. Throughout all these years with A. Sujin we discussed again and again what seeing is: the experience of what appears through eyesense. We discussed what hearing is: the experience of what appears through the earsense. We are always forgetful of seeing and hearing, because we are more interested in concepts such as people, things and events. We can never be reminded enough of nåma and rúpa, because these are ultimate realities paññå has to understand. Right understanding of nåma and rúpa leads to detachment from the idea of self. We were reminded that awareness is not self, it cannot be induced. A. Sujin asked us: ²Who is aware?² When we answered, ³Awareness is aware², she said, ²That is in the book, but in your mind?² Such remarks made us realize how much we are still clinging to the idea of ³my awareness². Nina. 23620 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta Nipata Comy Dear Sarah and Kom, op 23-07-2003 10:39 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > The translation to the Sutta Nipata Comy has been high on my ‘wish’ list > for a long time. Out of interest, is it a long text, like the Udana Comy, > or a short one? N: Perhaps meanwhile Kom could help us with some passages of the Thai text of the Co. I do not have this in Thai. Nina. 23621 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] legal action Dear Sarah, op 23-07-2003 11:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: I discussed with Lodewijk your tongue cutting incident. I hope it is cured. Such an incident can happen to all of us, and it is true that we can see result of kamma, but Lodewijk said, if we say all the time: just conditions, I will have metta and upekkha, not do anything, it may be too much. He said, we have to be careful saying, conditions, conditions, and he hopes at least the restaurant provided the doctor. If that were so, he himself would perhaps not take legal action. And they should pay you compensation money, at least for the dinner. It is as you said before to me: unlimited metta, but, we have to be reasonable. If we don't say anything, they will also be careless with other clients, what do you think? There is the world of paramattha dhammas but there is also the world of conventional realities. Nina. 23622 From: Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] legal action Hi, Nina (and Sarah) - In a message dated 7/24/03 1:42:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Sarah, > op 23-07-2003 11:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I discussed with Lodewijk your tongue cutting incident. I hope it is cured. > Such an incident can happen to all of us, and it is true that we can see > result of kamma, but Lodewijk said, if we say all the time: just conditions, > I will have metta and upekkha, not do anything, it may be too much. He said, > we have to be careful saying, conditions, conditions, and he hopes at least > the restaurant provided the doctor. If that were so, he himself would > perhaps not take legal action. And they should pay you compensation money, > at least for the dinner. > It is as you said before to me: unlimited metta, but, we have to be > reasonable. If we don't say anything, they will also be careless with other > clients, what do you think? There is the world of paramattha dhammas but > there is also the world of conventional realities. > Nina. > > =========================== I agree with Lodewijk. Yes, all just conditions. But the conditions that led to cutting Sarah's tongue involved negligence of others who had the resposibility to not be negligent. Talking of conventional realities is just a matter of using complex verbal abbreviations and can still consist of uttering very real truths not easily expressible if one had to speak only of paramattha dhammas directly. I was thinking about the role of concepts in providing knowledge the other day while out driving locally. I was parked in the parking lot of a small shopping center. I wanted to drive to a certain intersection. I figured out, by a combination of mental visualizing and verbal thinking, that I could most easily get to that intersection by making a particular sequence of driving moves involving several consecutive turns interspersed with straight driving. I followed my plan,and it worked perfectly, ending me up quickly at the intended intersection. My experience of getting from the parking lot to the intersection in actuality involved a sequence of trillions upon trillions of mind moments involved sight, sound, touch, and thoughts and other namas. Had I attempted to plan out my trip in such terms, the plan could never have been made, and, per force, not the trip. The information needed to make the trip was *only* possible via concepts, and that information led to the arising of a stream of actualities, not just conventional events, that otherwise would not have arisen. Not everything that needs to be known can be known without depending on concept formation and manipulation. Or so it seems to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23623 From: Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jim: "To Larry: In "And that has yet to be developed." Does your edition actually read 'yet'? I ask this because mine has 'still'. Maybe you have a newer revised edition." Hi Jim, My mistake. My edition does read "still". I am not a good typist so it would be good if everyone could keep an eye out for errors. Much appreciated. Larry 23624 From: Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Hi Jon, I was hoping someone would briefly elucidate this sentence for the benefit of those who don't have the book or are too lazy to look up the answer. Would you care to give it a shot? Larry --------------------- "And that [consciousness] has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits." 23625 From: Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vedanta, Atma Vichara Hi Chris, The main thing is to look and see for yourself. Asking "who am I" (atma vichara) is as good a question as any if you actually look at what seems to be oneself. The usual answer is " a composite". So, where is this composite and of what is it composed? Is this composite what you mean when you say "I want", "I don't want", or "I don't get it"? You can refer to the various doctrines for the "correct answers" but the main thing is to grab the bull (maya/samsara) by the horns and see for yourself. Larry 23626 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 7:58pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi RobM, To summarise the discussion so far: Victor wrote; "skilful action can be either pleasant or unpleasant to do," and he quoted the Thana Sutta. You said your first reaction was to deny this on the grounds that kusala cetana is never accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling. Then you conceded that a COURSE of skilful action could be unpleasant to do. This led you to suggest that the Dhamma was taught on two levels: a micro level, in which there are only paramattha dhammas, and a macro level, in which there are concepts (such as courses of action). We both saw the Thana Sutta, as being at the macro level. It shows how courses of action can be put into four categories and it shows how each, in turn, is followed by either the foolish, the wise or both. I thought it was pretty elementary. It seemed to ignore the fact that a course of action is rarely all pleasant, all unpleasant, all kusala or all akusala. After all, there are countless billions of paramattha mind moments in any, conceptual, course of action. My point was that, superficially, the macro level teaching is no different from conventional, non-Buddhist teachings. Such teachings can perpetuate all sorts of wrong view. It is only when we hear the macro-level suttas with an understanding of the micro-level suttas (and the Abhidhamma), that their true meaning can be appreciated. What is the true meaning in this case? I don't really know; perhaps it is that what seems unpleasant to do, for example 'giving a treasured possession to the poor,' is actually profitable and, therefore, not unpleasant at all. (?) I'm sure if I gave away my favourite wristwatch (which tells the state of the tide at Noosa), I would be devastated and would regret having done so. However, that course of action may have involved some precious kusala moments -- much more precious than any wristwatch. As an uninstructed worldling, I wouldn't know. In my experience, first impressions of suttas are always wide of the mark; as you said, we should read the Commentaries. ------------- > I did not understand your linkage between this Sutta and the four noble truths. > -------------- A person with an understanding of the four noble truths, knows that there are only dhammas, and that all conditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta. What I described was my conception of how a person, with this micro-level understanding, might interpret the macro level, Thana-sutta. I can see that what I wrote wasn't very clear and I can assure you, you haven't missed much -- it didn't break any new ground. :-) ------------- > Can you explain the linkage another way to help me to understand. > ------------- For what it's worth, another way of putting it might be: When it is conventionally said, "an unpleasant course of action is being followed," a bhikkhu knows that only the five khandhas are spoken of. When it is said, "a course of action is producing profitable results," again, there are only the five khandhas. When it is said "a wise man follows this course of action" . . . and so on. The instructed bhikkhu knows the pleasant khandha as pleasant: the unpleasant as unpleasant: the neutral as neutral. He knows that all khandhas are dukkha, knows the cause of dukkha, its cessation and the path. Further corrections still welcome :-) Ken 23627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Hi Larry, op 24-07-2003 01:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I believe concentration is synonymous with one-pointedness > (ekaggata cetasika), N: Yes L:but as it is used here as proximate cause to > understanding (panna) it means not wandering. In other words, not > reacting but simply observing. N: I see it in this way: when sati is mindful of a nama or rupa, and samadhi is (for that short moment) fixed on that one object, panna can know it as it is. L: What would you suggest as a proximate > cause for this? Do you consider this proximate cause to be "born of > seclusion from the hindrances" as piti is? N: I do not look for a proximate cause of a proximate cause. Intellectual right understanding of the object of satipatthana and the way of its development: no self trying to concentrate or to have sati. When the condiitons are right, there will be as Jon said. Nina. 23628 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear Jim, Thank you very much for your interesting remarks. Just a thing I wonder about, see below. op 24-07-2003 17:19 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > > Some interesting details in the Maha Tika: there is a complete listing > of the "aspects" in "in all its aspects" (sabbaakaarena). For "comes > next": in the order of the teaching and in the order of the practice > (desanaakkamena pa.tipattikkamena ca). A clear indication that, in > practice, the development of concentration precedes that of > understanding. > N: It depends in whose pratice. I read: Here is the case of the bhikkhu who has developed jhana and also the abhinnas, including superpowers such as diving into the earth. This bhikkhu will develop panna to the degree of arahatship and even have the four analytical powers. This is no longer the case at the present time. I do not see this as a rule for everybody. I cannot see a set order of first sila, then samadhi, then panna. As we discussed before, the Vis. deals with all degrees of sila, even the eradication of all defilements can also be seen under sila. Evenso there are many degrees of concentration. In the Vis I read that only very, very few can attain jhana. But I will rather wait and see what the Tika further explains. Nina. 23629 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice Dear Kom and Jon, op 21-07-2003 08:26 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > I don't think I can put it any better than Jon already did. > I think when there is an intention, strong enough to be > noticeable, to "notice" or "catch" something, it is most > likely the attachment to knowing the dhammas, to making > progress, to having sati, to being someone who has sati, and > all the other various shades of attachment more than > insights. I think it is normal to have such attachments, > (because we are still full of self) which is why is so > important to carefully learn the differences between sati > and the samudhaya, and to realize that attachment will lead > one yet to more rebirths rather than getting one out of it. > Does something one does/thinks of leads to more attachment? > That is not the teaching of the Buddha. N: I appreciate all the extra remarks by you and Jon, and we can see that admirable friends are very helpful, as Christine would say. As you say, we should know all the different shades of attachment. I am always in for additional remarks, thank you very much, Nina. 23630 From: bodhi dhamma Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:52pm Subject: chanting and transference of merits to petas Sarah, thank you for your reply, sorry for my late response as I am busy with the works. The recent upsurge in regional stock market really make me a busy man from 9 to 5 ( I work as a stock dealer with three telephones on my desk ). In a crazy stock market, I use to see greedy punters chasing after illusions. They ignorantly/blindly believe that a particular stock may increase in price overnight,.Very often they listen to rumours, hearsay......etc. without a slight use of their own wisdom. They are so naiive that they believe money can easily fall from the sky into their own pocket, just like that.It is true that people are still full of greed and are ignorant. The punters are not aware of the impermenance of joy when they make some money from their gamble (they turn the purportedly investment market into a casino).In fact the market situation itself is impermanence and is unpredictable. One moment of joy often turns into dukkha ! I always see people disappear from the market after that, many of them run away from the family, the creditors, bankers ...etc. What a sorrowful life for them ( many of the still owe me substantial sum) as a result of greed , craving and ignorance. Sometime I regret of having a "wrong livelihood". but after reading Rob"s "right effort",. I began to realise that my past effort to advise those "stock-punters" not to speculate but to invest on long term basis, is a right effort (instead of changing my profession, running away from realty) Stock market is good place to experience/realise the dhamma. From books and from personal observations, I thus realise that the teachings of Buddha is very true and applicable to our daily life. Regarding the to topic of chanting, I rely mainly on secondary sources.My discussions with the class was fruitful. Last night after the sutra discussion class, one member told me an interesting incidence that happened during a chanting session held on previous Tuesday. He said he could "feel" the presence of unseen beings (obviously the petas) in the chanting hall. It is possible as our temple is side-by-side with the cementary. There must be lots of petas around the temple! Their presence is to wish to have some of merits ( it is our practice to share merits after the chanting) , I think. Another incidence was told by a yogi (very often we conduct meditation retreat in the temple, and yogi would spend some nights there) . He had a dream one night. A "being" told not to worry as "he" only come to visit the temple, not to harm the yogi ! For those who have the aforesaid experiences, they have developed a strong faith in chanting and transference of merits to petas. The power and benefits derive from chanting are thus NO nonsense ! I wish to share my above experience with everyone in the group. SADHU ! SADHU ! SADHU ! with metta , p c p/s sorry to Rob Moult, I have been absent from his sunday abhidhamma class ever since our beginners class started. I am still reading his abhidhamma book, a very excellent copy. 23631 From: Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on piti Hi Nina, I agree with your remarks and perhaps I am trying to make too much of the 'tidy package'. However I disagree here: Nina: "I do not look for a proximate cause of a proximate cause." L: This is the paticcasamuppada method, to analyze backward thru proximate causes to see where a process came from and how it works. Incidentally, here is something I like which I found while looking up the benefits of concentration: Vism XI, 121: When ordinary people and Trainers develop it [concentration] thinking 'After emerging we shall exercize insight with concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]. Hence the Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is concentrated understands correctly' (S. iii, 13). L: The note says, "The process of existence in the round of rebirths, which is a very cramped place, is crowded by the defilements of craving and so on." I think this clearly shows that concentration (and insight) can arise in ordinary circumstances as you said. Larry 23632 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 0:13am Subject: [dsg] evil companion dear group, I was reading here on dsg. but can't remember where,and will quote: 'I'm blind , my eyes are destroyed. I've stumbled on a wilderness track. Even if I must crawl, I'll go on, but not with an evil companion'. The more I read this, the starker it becomes and it kind of reminds me of Ray Bradbury's stories [sci-fi]; however, I'm wondering what constitutes an evil companion. Is this evil companion someone who is truly evil, like a murderer, or does this refer to anyone who does not follow the Dhamma? I think it means the latter, but would like other's comment on this. I have been listening to tapes from the India trips and A. Sujin talks about being courageous: 'one has to be courageous and cheerful to understand any kind of reality which Sati is aware of--' How courageous is the speaker of the above passage - the Bodhisatva, no doubt. A not-very-courageous-at-the-moment, Azita. 23633 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Burma itinerary, finally Hi Shakti, --- shakti wrote: > Hi Betty, > > I have a few other questions about the trip. .... It's good to see your name again!! It’ll be super if you can join the trip. It might be best if you send your Burma qus to her off-list as well as she’s sometimes way behind on DSG posts and may not have seen your note. The same applies to Chuck or anyone else too. With metta, Sarah p.s Let me know off-list if you’d like to join Christine, Jon and myself for a leisurely breakfast on the Saturday before the trip at our hotel. ========================================== 23634 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. Hi Azita, I hope you don’t mind me adding a few comments to your note to Nina. --- gazita2002 wrote: A:>My life seems to have done > a bit of a loopy loop these last couple of weeks. > Sometimes, I think this dhamma is just too hard and then there is the > reminder that even those moments of despair are real and can be known. ..... S: I’m sorry to hear about the ‘loopy loop’ - as you say moments of thinking and despair can be known. Of course it isn’t really the dhamma that is so hard, but rather the tenacious kilesa (defilements) -- especially the ignorance and wrong views -- which cover up the truth and make it difficult to appreciate the reminders. ..... <....> A:> I find that in my thinking, I feel quite secure that I'm cool, > calm and collected, but when confronted with hurtful matters, the > citta so conditions rupa that my voice changes and my body hurts. > > We can blame the other for hurting us, but we know that if we didn't > have defilements then nothing would hurt. Long way to go!!! ..... S: It’s true -- long way to go. It’s good that you can appreciate where the real hurt is even at these times. I mentioned that I’d appreciated the reminders about the ‘defilements of the perfections’ in Nina’s recent series. The defilement of the perfection of patience as given in the Comy to the Cariyapitaka (Basket of Conduct) is “discriminating thoughts of oneself and others”. I think it’s so true that when we think of ourselves and others that so often there is no patience. We also read in the Comy (p 275 onwards in B.Bodhi’s translation of the Brahmajala Sutta & Commentaries)that patience opposes the defilements ‘by accepting the desirable, the undesirable, and emptiness’and that ‘through patience, the enduring of the wrongs of others’ results. K.Sujin used to say in effect that if one couldn’t pass the small tests with patience, such as when one is sick or hears harsh words, how is one going to pass the big tests when one really suffers? We might think sometimes that we are really suffering, but I find the following reminders are a helpful ‘wake-up’ call: Also from the Comy to the Cariyapitaka, we read about how a bodhisatva: “should contemplate the whole wold of sentient beings immersed in the great sufering of samsara and in the sufferings of the defilements and kamma-formations at its base. He should see the beings in hell experiencing violent, racking agonizing pains uninterruptedly over long periods, produced as they are cut up, dismembered, split, pulverized, and roasted in scorching fires; the great suffering of the animals due to their mutual hostility, as they afflict, harass, and kill one another, or fall into captivity at the hands of others; and the suffering of the various classes of ghosts, going about with their bodies aflame, consumed and withered by hunger, thirst, wind, and sun, weeping and wailing as their food turns into vomit and spittle. He should contemplate as well the suffering experienced by men, which is often indistinguishable from the suffering in the plane of misery: the misery and ruin they encounter in their search (for the means of sustenance and enjoyment); the various punishments they may meet, such as the cutting off of their hands, etc; ugliness, deformity, and poverty; affliction by hunger and thirst; being vanquished by the more powerful, pressed into the service of others, and made dependent upon others; and when they pass away, falling over into the hells, the realm of ghosts, and the animal kingdom.” ..... S:I think that if we can appreciate these reminders with equanimity or compassion rather than with sorrow or unpleasant feelings, they can be very helpful. We might think life is very fine in the deva realms and these beings don’t need any compassion or any great patience with their lots. However, the passage continues: ..... “He should see the gods of the sense-sphere being consumed by the fevers of lust as they enjoy their sense objects with scattered minds; living wiht their fever (of passions) unextinguished like a mass of fire stoked up with blasts of wind and fed with a stock of dry wood; without peace, dejected, and dependent on others." ..... S: So what about the gods in the rupa and arupa planes -- surely they don't suffer from these problems, I thought as I was reading this..the passage continues: ..... "And he should see the gods of the fine-material and immaterial spheres, after so long a life-span, in the end succomb to the law of impermanence, plunging from their heights back down into the round of birth, ageing, and death, like birds swooping swiftly down from the heights of the sky or like arrows shot by a strong arm descending in the distance. And having seen all this, he should arouse a sense of spiritual urgency, and suffuse all beings universally with loving-kindness and compassion.” ***** S:Azita, these may not be helpful reminders at this time for you, but please remember that the ‘loopy loop’ times don’t last either. May they also be a condition for a sense of urgency (samvega)and the development of satipatthana. <...> > Patience, patience and more patience .... S: Hope to hear the courage and good cheer again soon too;-) Metta, Sarah p.s So glad to hear you'll be joining the Cooran group again -- I'm sure your presence is a great asset to the group -- and also hope to see you in Thailand before too long. ======================= 23635 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] legal action Dear Nina & Howard, Thanks for raising these interesting points and for your concern. Before I add a few thoughts, let me assure you that my tongue made a fast recovery and I was very well-taken care of by the staff and hotel doctor. I’ve also been offered a meal at any of the hotel’s restaurants with four friends. I’ve asked to take a rain-check until there is a special occasion, such as when a particular friend who has been through lots of cancer treatment returns to Hong Kong and can help me and some other friends run up a big bill eating some Chinese or Japanese delicacies ;-) ...... --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > op 23-07-2003 11:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I discussed with Lodewijk your tongue cutting incident. I hope it is > cured. > Such an incident can happen to all of us, and it is true that we can see > result of kamma, but Lodewijk said, if we say all the time: just > conditions, > I will have metta and upekkha, not do anything, it may be too much. He > said, > we have to be careful saying, conditions, conditions, and he hopes at > least > the restaurant provided the doctor. If that were so, he himself would > perhaps not take legal action. And they should pay you compensation > money, > at least for the dinner. .... Actually, it was a brunch (remember we don’t eat dinner;-)) out by the pool at the hotel where we use the health club -- our main luxury in life here. Like Lodevijk, I don’t think that saying ‘conditions, conditions’ or having metta and upekkha means not taking any action. I believe that could be a kind of wrong view -- a view that understanding conditions or having metta means sitting back and being passive in life rather than acting naturally and within our limitations. Whilst I really wouldn’t have considered taking legal action even if the hotel hadn’t responded well -- in my case more to do with always having been surrounded by lawyers and knowing that legal action is usually better avoided -- I’ve felt very comfortable in making a few points in friendly discussions with a manager to help ensure precautions are taken in future to hopefully prevent any recurrences with anyone else. (In fact, as this accident happened just two days before Tony Blair and entourage arrived for a large reception at the same hotel, I don’t think the senior staff needed any assistance to thoroughly reasses food preparation issues. The one inch piece of glass that had lodged itself in my tongue was identified as being the same as from a kitchen breakage, so there was no question about responsibility). ..... > It is as you said before to me: unlimited metta, but, we have to be > reasonable. If we don't say anything, they will also be careless with > other > clients, what do you think? There is the world of paramattha dhammas but > there is also the world of conventional realities. .... This particular incident had a very happy ending. I think the hotel are just very relieved that I’m well and that (from their point of view) I’ve taken it with good grace. I assured them that I wouldn’t be pursuing the matter and I also requested that no one would lose their job as a result, knowing how hotels are using any excuse to downsize their staff these days. I think, as Howard implies, there isn’t any rule about what kind of response one takes and we have to know our own limitations and tendencies as well. If the hotel managers hadn’t responded well, I would have still been concerned about staff getting into trouble and about difficulties and long troubled stories for both Jonothan and myself if I’d made a big fuss. This would have interfered with my routine and enjoyment when I use the pool and hassles for everyone. I prefer to forget these things as soon as possible. I don’t think the metta can be judged by the action taken necessarily at all, but I know that everyone at the hotel is giving me really great service these days and at this point I’m not sorry about what happened. I’m just relieved that I was eating slowly and carefully at the time so that the damage wasn’t more serious. With metta, Sarah p.s If anyone saw the BBC coverage of Blair’s visit here, the commentators were using the hotel pool (the scene of the ‘tongue cutting incident’ which Christine knows well) as a backdrop. ================================== 23636 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for your comments. > > I would like to correct myself that instead of saying "It is > what/whom one desires for makes the difference" I should say "It is > what one desires for makes the difference." > > Desire in and of itself, like intent, is neutral in terms of > wholesome/skillful and unwholesome/unskillful. ..... I think you are meaning that chanda (desire/wish to do) and cetana (intention) can be wholesome/skillful or unwholesome/unskillful. If so, I agree with this. (They can also accompany vipaka (result) consciousness and kiriya (inoperative) consciousness. However, whenever they arise they are one of these at the time, rather than ‘neutral’. I don’t think we can just say that this nature or jati is determined by the object either. For example, visible object or thinking or other objects can be experienced with unwholesome desire (attachment and akusala chanda) or with detachment and wholesome chanda, even with right understanding and right effort as in your example. ..... > Any desire and passion with regard to the senses, the aggregates, > and the properties/dhatu is a defilement of mind.* > > That kind of desire is certainly different from the desire connected > with right effort mentioned in the following: > > > "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of > the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet > arisen. <....> ..... So on account of what objects are these wholesome states and right effort supposed to arise? On account of just the same objects which are usually the objects of attachment, ignorance and aversion. In otherwords, the ‘All’ are to be known by right understanding and accompanying factors. “Forms, sounds, odours, tastes, Tactiles and all objects of mind - Desirable, lovely, agreeable, So long as it’s said: ‘They are.’ “These are considered happiness By the world with its devas; But where these cease, That they consider suffering. “The noble ones have seen as happiness The ceasing of identity. This (view) of those who clearly see Runs counter to the entire world. “What others speak of as happiness, That the noble ones say is suffering; What others speak of as suffering, That the noble ones know as bliss.” (SN, Sa.laayatanavagga, Bk of Six Sense Bases., 136 Delight in Forms) ..... I may add other comments on your further points later, but I think I’ll see if we’re close to any kind of agreement here first of all. Metta, Sarah ====== 23637 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) > The only 'world' that is to be understood according to the teachings > is the world of the six senses, not the world at large (which I see > as being analogous to the billiard game). > > The world of the six senses does not bear any direct relationship to > the world at large. This is pretty much the way I see it too. 'The world' outside of this context seems to me to fall into the context of the 'unconjecturables': "Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it." Anguttara Nikaya IV.77 Acintita Sutta Unconjecturable http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-077.html Not certain about this. I wonder if anyone has access to the commentary esp. on '[the origin, etc., of]'. mike 23638 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vedanta, Atma Vichara Hi Chris & All, Your question reminds me of our friend Dharam and his good questions. It would be good to hear his comments too if he’s still following. --- christhedis wrote: > Now for my new topic: > > I've studied a bit of vedanta, as well as Atma Vichara. It seems to > me as though these 'philosophies' do indeed lead one to the > understanding of impermanence and not-self, hence similar to Buddhism > in where the student is lead. Would others in this group agree that > they are somewhat 'similar means to the same end'? Is it meant to be > possible to even reach nibbana through these other philosophies? > Thus, could they be said to be 'alternate paths' to enlightenment? ..... Perhaps others will respond. In the meantime, let me offer this passage from the MahaParinibbana Sutta (as translated in Warren’s ‘Buddhism in Translations’, p105)for general consideration/comment: ***** "Subhadda, in whatever doctrine and discipline the noble eightfold path is not found, therein also is not found the monk of the first degree, nor the monk of the second degree, nor the monk of the third degree, nor the monk of the fourth degree; and in whatever doctrine and discipline, O Subhadda, the noble eightfold path is found, therein also are found the monk of the first degree, and the monk of the second degree, and the monk of the third degree, and the monk of the fourth degree. Now in this Doctrine and Discipline, O Subhadda, the noble eightfold path is found: and therein alone, O Subhadda, are found the monk of the first degree, and the monk of the second degree, and the monk of the third degree, and the monk of the fourth degree. Destitute of true monks are all other creeds. But let these my priests, O Subhadda, live rightly, and the world will not be destitute of saints. p. 106 [MPS.593 "What time my age was twenty-nine, Subhadda, I left the world to seek the summum bonum. Now fifty years and more have passed, Subhadda, Since I renounced the world and lived ascetic Within the Doctrine's pale, that rule of conduct Outside of which no genuine monk existeth, nor the monk of the second degree, nor the monk of the third degree, nor the monk of the fourth degree. Destitute of monks are all other creeds. But let these my priests, O Subhadda, live rightly, and the world will not be destitute of saints." ***** I’ll look forward to reading any comments. With metta, Sarah ======= 23639 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear Nina, [...] > > Some interesting details in the Maha Tika: there is a complete listing > > of the "aspects" in "in all its aspects" (sabbaakaarena). For "comes > > next": in the order of the teaching and in the order of the practice > > (desanaakkamena pa.tipattikkamena ca). A clear indication that, in > > practice, the development of concentration precedes that of > > understanding. > > > N: It depends in whose pratice. I read: its aspects by the bikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced > development of concentration that has acquired with direct knowledge the > benefits. But understanding comes next.> > Here is the case of the bhikkhu who has developed jhana and also the > abhinnas, including superpowers such as diving into the earth. This bhikkhu > will develop panna to the degree of arahatship and even have the four > analytical powers. This is no longer the case at the present time. I do not > see this as a rule for everybody. I cannot see a set order of first sila, > then samadhi, then panna. As we discussed before, the Vis. deals with all > degrees of sila, even the eradication of all defilements can also be seen > under sila. Evenso there are many degrees of concentration. In the Vis I > read that only very, very few can attain jhana. > But I will rather wait and see what the Tika further explains. > Nina. Thank-you for your comments and I agree with much of what you say here. The Vism describes the threefold training in a particular order and that is something to keep in mind when considering how one goes about developing the path. The way in which this hypothetical bhikkhu has practised serves as an excellent example even if one does not yet have the accumulations to carry it out in the same way during one's current existence. But, nevertheless, it remains a possibility in some future existence when the conditions are ripe. During the meantime one can continue to develop understanding at the theoretical level (sutamaya) and to work on the problem of how to put into practice what one has learnt from the texts. For myself, I hope that in some future life I too will be able to exemplify that bhikkhu. Best wishes, Jim 23640 From: vajramantra Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:33am Subject: Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Dear all, Does anyone know where the above mentioned work can be downloaded from? Thanks, Peter 23641 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] chanting and transference of merits to petas > > > > Sometime I regret of having a "wrong livelihood". > but after reading Rob"s > "right effort",. I began to realise that my past > effort to advise those "stock-punters" not to > speculate but to invest on long term basis, is a > right effort (instead of changing my profession, > running away from realty) Stock market is good place > to experience/realise the dhamma. > From books and from personal observations, I thus > realise that the teachings of Buddha is very true > and applicable to our daily life. As an "amateur" on Buddhist doctrine, I am always thinking on the fast tracts of the modern life. Many people haven´t time to think about your own lives, to read good books, to meditate. Stock Matket is the chaos of unbalanced impulses, of greed and bad feelings about money... so the fainty light started by you with a good counsel or a warm and polite word makes room for a better feeling, a better thinking, a rising of good Dhamma. And that´s one of the good remarks of the Abhidhamma Pali version I´ve read: from Dhammasanganipali to Puggalapannattipitti the Doctrine is reducted at this very ground of reasoning... a harsh exercise to my brain, that sometimes gets some passages of The Lotus Sutra to feel better! But I repute the Abhidhamma´s doctrine The Best for modern life,if one manages to penetrate its concepts, how Citta and The Cetasikas are going to mingled together to build reality and the ways that our ordinary lives seems to be a question of Dhamma as the sum up of Manas and Rupa. A very interesting study! > > Regarding the to topic of chanting, I rely mainly on > secondary sources.My discussions with the class was > fruitful. Last night after the sutra discussion > class, one member told me an interesting incidence > that happened during a chanting session held on > previous Tuesday. He said he could "feel" the > presence of unseen beings (obviously the petas) in > the chanting hall. It is possible as our temple is > side-by-side with the cementary. There must be lots > of petas around the temple! Oh well... Their presence is to > wish to have some of merits ( it is our practice to > share merits after the chanting) , I think. Another > incidence was told by a yogi (very often we conduct > meditation retreat in the temple, and yogi would > spend some nights there) . He had a dream one night. > A "being" told not to worry as "he" only come to > visit the temple, not to harm the yogi ! > For those who have the aforesaid experiences, they > have developed a strong faith in chanting and > transference of merits to petas. The power and > benefits derive from chanting are thus NO nonsense ! Good for the peta... good for you and all living beings!!! > > I wish to share my above experience with everyone in > the group. > SADHU ! SADHU ! SADHU ! Keep boosting!!! > > p/s sorry to Rob Moult, I have been absent from > his sunday abhidhamma class ever since our beginners > class started. I am still reading his abhidhamma > book, a very excellent copy. Best studies!!! Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23642 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) > I think you are meaning that chanda (desire/wish to > do) and cetana > (intention) can be wholesome/skillful or > unwholesome/unskillful. If so, I > agree with this. (They can also accompany vipaka > (result) consciousness > and kiriya (inoperative) consciousness. If I´ve read correctly the text, I think so. > > However, whenever they arise they are one of these > at the time, rather > than ‘neutral’. I don’t think we can just say that > this nature or jati is > determined by the object either. There are four types of Arupajhana (Functional consciousness): at first three kinds:pleasurable, painful, and that which is neither pleasurable nor painful. Or, again, it is five-fold, namely, happiness, pain, pleasure, displeasure, and indifference or equanimity. Of all them,the resultant body-consciousness (moral, in opposition of immoral resultant)is the only one accompanied by happiness. For example, > visible object or thinking > or other objects can be experienced with unwholesome > desire (attachment > and akusala chanda) or with detachment and wholesome > chanda, even with > right understanding and right effort as in your > example. In this case, immoral resultant body-consciousness is the only one accompanied by pain. About pleasure, there are sixty-two kinds of consciousness accompanied by pleasure, namely: a. the eighteen types of sense-sphere consciousness, such as four rooted in attachment, twelve types of sense-sphere Beautiful consciousness, the two types of investigating and smiling consciousness, b. fourty-four types of Sublime and Supramundane consciousness pertaining to the first second, third, and fourth Jhanas. (12+32). Only the two types of consciousness connected with aversion are accompained by displeasure. Gosh!!! I think that´s right! Metta, Ícarvs 23643 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 For myself, I hope > that in some future > life I too will be able to exemplify that bhikkhu. Keep your mind on. We are living at an age that such efforts towards mindfullness are accomplished on more easily today than at past: more books, more teachers, more practitioners, more free time and more resources to bear us on the path. "...by leading a secluded life, dilligently, energetically and with a resolute will, in a short time he understood, experienced and attained that high perfection of a noble life..." ( Sabhiya Sutta, Sutta Nipata, Mahavagga, 6) Ícarvs > > Best wishes, > Jim ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23644 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:09pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Hello Peter, The first 90 pages of 834 pages of The Visuddhi Magga - The Path of Purification by Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli are available at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-1.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > Dear all, > > Does anyone know where the above mentioned work can be downloaded > from? > > Thanks, > > Peter 23645 From: Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Hi Peter and all, "The Path of Purification" can be bought at a bookstore that sells BPS publications or here: http://www.pariyatti.com/frontpage.htm Maybe someone can post a source for Asia, Australia, & Europe. Larry 23646 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 If any of you are interested in having the Pali text of Vism. XIV.1-32 in a plain text format (15K), you can download zvis14a.txt from the DSG files folder (it's right at the bottom). It is copied from the Burmese CSCD disk and converted to the Velthuis scheme (no special font required). To make it more useful I have changed the section numbers to match those in ~Naa.namoli's translation. It's better to read it in a word processor as the lines probably won't wrap on your browser. Just save to disk after downloading. Jim 23647 From: Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Larry: "Would someone like to say a few words on this sentence: "And that [consciousness] has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits."" Hi Larry The 5 benefits of developed concentration are: 1. For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now. 2. For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of insight. 3. It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge". 4. For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world. 5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana). [Trainer = sekha, stream enterer, once returner, non-returner] "Direct knowledge" is B. Nyanamoli's translation of abhi~n~naa. To my mind this is a little misleading as I tend to think of direct knowledge as knowledge of realities unmediated by conventional concepts. In a sense, that is the case here as well, but it is a highly technical sense. Abhi is the same abhi that is in abhidhamma and is very similar to the para of paramattha. So it literally means advanced knowledge or mastery. In this context it refers to transcendental knowledge in that it is kowledge that goes beyond ordinary experience and conventional physics. Here is Nyanatiloka's definition of the 6 abhinnas: abhiññá: The 6 'higher powers', or supernormal knowledge's, consist of 5 mundane (lokiya, q.v.) powers attainable through the utmost perfection in mental concentration (samádhi, q.v.) and one supermundane (lokuttara, q.v.) power attainable through penetrating insight (vipassaná, q.v.), i.e. extinction of all cankers (ásavakkhaya; s. ásava), in other words, realization of Arahatship or Holiness. They are: (1) magical powers (iddhi-vidha), (2) divine ear (dibba-sota), (3) penetration of the minds of others (ceto-pariya-ñána), (4) remembrance of former existences (pubbe-nivásánussati), (5) divine eye (dibba-cakkhu), (6) extinction of all cankers (ásavakkhaya). L: Neither the 6 abhinnas nor full mastery of jhana are necessary for the arising of understanding (panna) but at least access concentration is necessary. Larry 23648 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Icarus, Many thanks for your message (to me?) on this thread which I'll look at more carefully as I'm about to dash out now. I can see you've studied a lot of dhamma and I'm appreciating all your comments on various threads. Can I just ask you a couple of favours in the meantime? Would you kindly clarify who you are addressing at the top of your messages in future, so that everyone can see at a glance whose message you are responding to or are considering. Also, we all love to hear a little about any new members (especially active posting ones like yourself). Where do you live and can you tell us anything about your Buddhist studies or background? Look forward to chatting more to you very much. Meanwhile, I'm glad you're finding yourself so at home on DSG - a big welcome to you and any other new members. Must dash Metta, Sarah p.s we appreciate any trimming of tails of old posts;-) ====================================================== 23649 From: Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:11pm Subject: concentration and tranquility Hi all, Anyone have any ideas on why neither of the 2 tranquility cetasikas are not jhana factors? In anapanasati there is tranquilizing of the breath in order to tranquilize the mind but the tranquility cetasikas relate directly to mental factors rather than rupa. Is "tranquility" just a conventional euphemism for concentration? I assume all 19 "Beautiful Universal" cetasikas are part of the background of all jhana states just because they are universals. Larry FYI 19 Beautiful Universal cetasikas: faith, mindfulness, shame, fear of wrong, non-greed, non-hatred, neutrality of mind, tranquility of mental body, tranquility of consciousness, lightness of mental body, lightness of consciousness, malleability of mental body, malleability of consciousness, weildiness of mental body, wieldiness of consciousness, proficiency of mental body, proficiency of consciousness, rectitude of mental body, rectitude of consciousness 23650 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: chanting and transference of merits to petas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, bodhi dhamma wrote: > sorry for my late response as I am busy with the works. > The recent upsurge in regional stock market really make me a busy man > from 9 to 5 ( I work as a stock dealer with three telephones on my desk ). > > In a crazy stock market, I use to see greedy punters chasing after illusions. They ignorantly/blindly believe that a particular stock may increase in price overnight,.Very often they listen to rumours, hearsay......etc. without a slight use of their own wisdom. They are so naiive that they believe money can easily fall from the sky into their own pocket, just like that.It is true that people are still full of greed and are ignorant. > > The punters are not aware of the impermenance of joy when they make some money from their gamble (they turn the purportedly investment market into a casino).In fact the market situation itself is impermanence and is unpredictable. One moment of joy often turns into dukkha ! I always see people disappear from the market after that, many of them run away from the family, the creditors, bankers ...etc. What a sorrowful life for them ( many of the still owe me substantial sum) as a result of greed , craving and ignorance. > > Sometime I regret of having a "wrong livelihood". but after reading Rob"s > "right effort",. I began to realise that my past effort to advise those "stock-punters" not to speculate but to invest on long term basis, is a right effort (instead of changing my profession, running away from realty) Stock market is good place to experience/realise the dhamma. > From books and from personal observations, I thus realise that the teachings of Buddha is very true and applicable to our daily life. > > _______________ Dear bodhi dhamma, Thanks for your letter. I dabble in stocks and futures - not very successfully- from time to time. It is daily life as you say. I also find it is very much a time to learn about ones desires and fears with regard to money. robertK 23651 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:52pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Rob, Thank you for your reply! I am glad that you find Thana Sutta helpful. The original question is How is one to differentiate kusala kamma from pleasant sense pleasures,ie, mental pleasures. I see the question as: How is one to differentiate wholesome action from pleasant feeling? I would say that one needs to understand what action is and what feeling is to differentiate wholesome action from pleasant feeling. What is action/kamma? As the Buddha taught: Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an06-063.html#5 What is the wholesome (kamma)? "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from harsh speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; non-covetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html The Buddhat explained what feeling is: "And what is feeling? These six are classes of feeling: feeling born from eye-contact, feeling born from ear-contact, feeling born from nose-contact, feeling born from tongue-contact, feeling born from body-contact, feeling born from intellect-contact. This is called feeling. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-002.html Regarding pleasant feeling: Dependent on a sense-impression that is liable to be felt as pleasurable, there arises a pleasant feeling. When that very sense- impression liable to be felt as pleasurable has ceased, then the sensation born from it[1] -- namely the pleasant feeling that arose dependent on that sense-impression -- also ceases and is stilled. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-010.html Understanding what action/kamma is and what feeling is would help one differentiate wholesome action from pleasant feeling. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Victor, > [snip] > Metta, > Rob M :-) 23652 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. we and us. Dear Mike, op 21-07-2003 22:18 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > I know it's often a fine line to tread > between vohaara- and paramattha-vacana. But I THINK that the idea that 'I > can develop satipatthaana' is a dangerous obstacle to the the arising of > satipatthaana--or maybe not? N: Yes, we are full of the idea of self, it is always latent and can condition wrong thinking. Even when breathing in and out, is there not sometimes an idea of I am breathing, even when not thinking in words about it? In Thai the word for we, raw, does not have to be used, there is less use of personal pronoun. When the reader understands the context and the explanation, there is less danger in using the word we. I appreciate Jon's reminder: < As I see it, when there is the specific intention to 'be more patient/tolerant', 'show more generosity', 'have more awareness', 'study realties' or the like, it is not the same as an opportunity that occurs unbidden.> An unbidden opportunity, you do not expect it to happen, but sati can arise. Good to discuss these things. And now another subject: Lodewijk said again today to me, be careful when using the words conditions, accumulations. We may use them too easily, and, he said, we can make others puzzled or irritated. He himself tends to get panicky sometimes when hearing these words, he feels a lack of understanding. This is really food for thought, is there perhaps another way we can explain these things? Nina. 23653 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration. Dear Larry, op 25-07-2003 07:09 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: However I disagree here: > > Nina: "I do not look for a proximate cause of a proximate cause." > > L: This is the paticcasamuppada method, to analyze backward thru > proximate causes to see where a process came from and how it works. N: proximate cause is not the same. We read about proximate causes for the different cetasikas, and this is a subject different from the paticcasamuppada. L: Vism XI, 121: When ordinary people and Trainers develop it > [concentration] thinking 'After emerging we shall exercize insight with > concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration > provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate > cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of > arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]. Hence the > Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is > concentrated understands correctly' (S. iii, 13). N: We also have to take into account that only those who are highly skilled and have the masteries of jhana, vasi, can use jhana as proximate cause for insight. I am afraid people may not realize what it means to have masteries in jhana: going from one jhana to a higher or a lower one, emerging from it or entering it whenever they want to. And as said, very few can attain jhana, let alone have masteries of jhana. Thus, this text is true, but can be applied by only very few people. Thanks to your quote I can understand this text now much better than before. Nina. 23654 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear Icaro, op 25-07-2003 18:48 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Keep your mind on. We are living at an age that > such efforts towards mindfullness are accomplished on > more easily today than at past: more books, more > teachers, more practitioners, more free time and more > resources to bear us on the path. N: But inspite of this, we are further away from the Buddha's time. In this world now, there are no longer arahats (see commentaries). And, as I said to Larry, jhana is extremely difficult, and even more so the masteries (vasis) of jhana, and without these no way to have jhana as a base for insight. And the right conditions for jhana: a secluded life, away from sense pleasures, rebirth-consciousness which is tihetuka, accompanied by panna. But what can be done: development of insight now in daily life. Jhana is not necessary to attain enlightenment, one can become sukkha vipassaka, with dry insight. Nina. 23655 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Hello Peter, Larry and all, The back of my copy says: "Reprinted and donated for free distribution by The Corporate Body of the Buddha Eductional Foundation 11F, 55 Hang Chow South Road Sec 1, Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. Tel. 886-2-23951198, Fax: 886-2-23913415 Email: overseas@b... Website: http://www.budaedu.org.tw (seems to be only in chinese) This book is strictly for free distribution, it is not to be sold. Might be worth contacting them by email or fax. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23656 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > The back of my copy says: > "Reprinted and donated for free distribution by > The Corporate Body of the Buddha Eductional Foundation > 11F, 55 Hang Chow South Road Sec 1, Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. > Tel. 886-2-23951198, Fax: 886-2-23913415 > Email: overseas@b... > Website: http://www.budaedu.org.tw (seems to be only in chinese) > This book is strictly for free distribution, it is not to be sold. ..... Your note just reminded me that a member of this Foundation in Taipei wrote to DSG a couple of years ago - the following information should be helpful - I note that at that time they had 3000 copies of this text (see ***** below)available for distribution. If anyone gets a response, perhaps they'd share it with the list. Otherwise the (new) soft cover copies from the Pariyatti website Larry gave the link for are quite reasonably priced these days and the delivery to Asia is very fast. Metta, Sarah ====== http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m1446.html --- gaopeng@m... wrote: > Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:31:35 -0000 Subject: Re: send me book [The Corporate Body of The > Buddha Educational Foundation > > > 2) Buddha Education Foundation > > 11F, 55 Hangchow South Road, Sec 1 > > Taipei > > TAIWAN - R.O.C. > > The Corporate Body of The Buddha Educational > Foundation, > 11F, #55, Sec. 1, Hang-Chow S. Rd., > 100, Taipei, Taiwan > TEL: +886-2-2395-1198 > FAX: +886-2-2391-3415 > > The above website just established its website last > year [ 1st Dec > 2000 ] here : [ But it is written in Chinese > language :-)] > http://www.budaedu.org.tw/ > > You could surf this website for the catalogue of the > dhamma books free > for distribution which are currently available: > > http://www.budaedu.org.tw/books/#foreign > > [I direct translated from the above website how to > request the dhamma > books as it is only written in chinese :-)] > ================================================= > How to request the dhamma books : > [1] You are welcome to request either through > phone, fax, snail mail > or email. > [2] In order to post the requested dhamma books to > you, please write > your mail address clearly with the relevent > postcode. > [3] In order the dhamma books can be easily > accessible to all the > people, all the dhamma books here are for FREE > distribution. In order > the dhamma books can be equally distributed to the > needed ones, please > request the exact amount of the books that you > really need. The > availability of the dhamma books depends on the > availability of the > stock left. > [4]There is some very few limited items left which > are not listed in > the above website due to the small amount stock > left, this are > reserved for those right ones to request, so it is > not convinience to > list this items publicly, if you really need this > not listed items, > you are welcome to request through phone, fax, post > or email to ask > for further information. > [5] When you reqesting through email , please take > note: > [a] for tradition chinese characters dhamma > books, please write to > domestic@b... [domestic@ budaedu.org.tw ] > [b] for simplified chinese characters dhamma > books, please write > to mainland@b... [mainland@ > budaedu.org.tw ] > [c] apart from the above [a] & [b] for foreign > language [english, > sri lanka, vietname etc] dhamma books , please write > to > overseas@b... [overseas@ budaedu.org.tw > ] > ==================================================== > > Normally the catalogue of the dhamma books available > are updated in a > monthly basis. Below are some of the foreign > language books currently > available I took from the above website as some of > the term are > written in chinese: > > Foreign Language Dhamma Books (Updated : > 2001.May.01.) > > Book Name {Author} [Language] (Printed > Amount/units) > > -DHAMMA VIVIENTE DHAMMA>{Ven. Ajahn > Chan}[Spanish] (10,000 units) > > -BUDDHISM IN A NUTSHELL {Ven.NANDA} [English] (5,000 > units) > -THE BUDDHA'S ANCENT PATH [English] (5,000 units) > -MAY FLOWER II [English] (5,000 units) > -Pure-Land Zen , Zen Pure-Land [English] (5,000 > units) > -BUDDHISM OF WISDOM & FAITH [English] (5,000 units) *****> -THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [English] (3,000 units)***** > -BUDDHISM AS AN EDUCATION [English] (5,000 units) > -THE WAY IT IS [English] (5,000 units) > -THE FOUR NOBLE TRUTH [English] (4,000 units) > -BUDDHISM: THE WISDOM OF COMPASSION AND AWAKENING > [English] (10,000 > units) > -TO UNDERSTAND BUDDHISM [English] (10,000 units) > -AN ELEMENTARY PALI COURSE [English] (2,000 units) > -On Amidism,To Be Born in a Lotus,A Buddhist Goal > that can be > [English] (4,000 units) > -EMPTY CLOUD: THE TEACHINGS OF XU YUN AND A > REMEMBRANCE OF THE GREAT > CHINESE ZEN MASTER [English] (4,000 units) > -THE SUTRA OF BODHISATTYA KSITIGARBHA'S FUNDAMENTAL > VOWS [English] > (5,000 units) > -THUS HAVE I HEARD [English] (5,000 units) > -CHANGING DESTINY [English] (10,000 units) > -VIPASSANA MEDITATION [German] > -VINAYA TIPITAKA [India Language] {3,000 units) > -WHY MEDITATION [India Language/Dialect Marathi] > -MINDFULNESS:THE PATH TO THE DEATH [Italy Language] > (10,000 units) > -THE FIELD OF MERIT [Loas Language] [10,000 units] > -THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [Sri Lanka Pali Language] > (5,000 units) > -COMMENTARY ON THE PATH OF PURIFICATION [sri Lanka > Language] (5,000 > units) > -BUDDHISM: ETT LEVANDE BUDSKAP [Sweden Language] > (10,000 units) > 10,000 23657 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:49pm Subject: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: Sarah: " Also, we all love to hear a little about any new members (especially > active posting ones like yourself). Where do you live and can you tell us > anything about your Buddhist studies or background?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Sarah! I am brazillian, living at Rio de Janeiro City. Presently my occupation is as Mechanical Engineer, with MSc in Robotic and Automation, assigned at Brazillian´s Air Force. My interest on Buddhism is deeply grounded in my teens - when I was a compulsive reader of all matters of the Doctrine of Buddha and about Oriental culture as a whole. The Practice of Yoga, meditation and sports had preserved me to become the typical nerd... And now, with some free time to spend at my will, I am reading and studying on The Abhidhamma, the "Crême de la crême" of the Buddha´s Pali Canon. I´m fascinated by its concise reasonings and profundity ! It´s the summit of all Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Look forward to chatting more to you very much. Meanwhile, I'm glad you're > finding yourself so at home on DSG - a big welcome to you and any other > new members. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There´s a lot goin´on !!! Metta, Ícarvs 23658 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Larry My apologies for being slow in getting back with a response (so slow that you felt compelled to answer your own post!). First, I give the passage exactly as it appears in TPOP: "And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits described [in Chs. XII and XIII]." I read 'that' as referring to 'concentration' (samadhi) -- see Note 1 below. My attempted 'brief elucidation', as requested, is as follows: The advanced development of concentration/samadhi involves the development of the 5 mundane 'direct-knowledges'/abhinnas (and this is the farthest that the development of concentration can be taken). Notes: 1. In the overall scheme of the Vism, 'consciousness' means 'concentration' -- see the beginning of this whole passage as quoted in your earlier post which reads: See also I, 7, 9-14. 2. What is described in Chs. XII and XIII is the 5 mundane abhinnas; only these, and not the 6th (supramundane) abhinna, are included in aspects of the development of concentration. See XII, 2 - XIII, 101 and the summary at XXIII 102-129. I hope this is clear. Questions/comments welcome. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I was hoping someone would briefly elucidate this sentence for the > benefit of those who don't have the book or are too lazy to look up > the answer. Would you care to give it a shot? > > Larry > --------------------- > > "And that [consciousness] has been developed in all its aspects by > the > bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of > concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the > benefits." 23659 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Larry Many thanks for this summary of the 5 benefits of the development of concentration given at XI, 120-125. I would like to add 1 or 2 further comments to your summaries, especially for those who do not have access to the actual text (warning: some points might be controversial ;-)). "1. For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now." Yes, for those who are already arahants and who develop absorption concentration with that purpose (i.e., entering into blissful abiding for extended periods) in mind. See XXI, 120: "For the development of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding here and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop concentration thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind for a whole day'. (Note the implication here that attainment of arahantship is possible without concentration having been developed to the degree of absorption.) "2. For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of insight." Yes, the development of both absorption concentration and access concentration provide this benefit for such people who aspire to *enlightenment with concentration as basis*. See the full text of XI, 121. (Note again the implication of the attainment of stream-entry without concentration having necesarily been developed to the degree of either access or absorption). "3. It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge"." Yes, for those who aspire to the mundane abhinnas with jhana as basis. XI, 122. "4. For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world." Yes, for such people who have not lost their jhana and who aspire to rebirth in the Brahma-world. XI, 123. "5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana)." For 'noble ones' (see XII, 124) who aspire to nirodha-samapatti, it may serve as the basis for that attainment. I believe the reference to 'noble ones' here is a reference to anagami's and arahants (i.e., not exactly the same class as 'Trainers'). This passage on the benefits of developing concentration is a very interesting one, and like much of the Vism is packed full of meaning. Happy to discuss further. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > The 5 benefits of developed concentration are: > > 1. For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now. > > 2. For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of > insight. > > 3. It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge". > > 4. For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world. > > 5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana). > > [Trainer = sekha, stream enterer, once returner, non-returner] 23660 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jim and Nina Jim, many thanks for your contributions so far on this project. It has been very useful having your input. There are a number of passages in Vism that are relevant to the thread you two are discussing here. I hope you don't mind me butting in with one such set of references. III, 5 '(iv) How many kinds of concentration are there? ... (3) [Concentration is] likewise [of two kinds] as mundane and supramundane,' ... III, 7 '3. Mundane concentration is profitable unification of mind in the three planes. Supramundane concentration is the unification associated with the noble paths.' III, 27 '(v) How should it be developed? 'The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with the noble paths mentioned (# 7) under that 'of two kinds as mundane and supramundane', etc., is included in the method of developing understanding (Ch. XXII); for in developing [path] understanding that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] about how that is to be developed. 'But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has already taken his stand on virtue ...' I've no doubt there are other passages we shall come across from time to time. I'm fully aware that no single passage is conclusive on this issue. It will be interesting to consider at a later stage everything we come up with during this study. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Nina, ... > Thank-you for your comments and I agree with much of what you say > here. The Vism describes the threefold training in a particular > order > and that is something to keep in mind when considering how one goes > about developing the path. The way in which this hypothetical > bhikkhu > has practised serves as an excellent example even if one does not > yet > have the accumulations to carry it out in the same way during one's > current existence. But, nevertheless, it remains a possibility in > some > future existence when the conditions are ripe. During the meantime > one can continue to develop understanding at the theoretical level > (sutamaya) and to work on the problem of how to put into practice > what one has learnt from the texts. For myself, I hope that in some > future life I too will be able to exemplify that bhikkhu. > > Best wishes, > Jim 23661 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. we and us. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. we and us. > I appreciate Jon's reminder: < As I see it, when there is the specific > intention to 'be more > patient/tolerant', 'show more generosity', 'have more awareness', > 'study realties' or the like, it is not the same as an opportunity > that occurs unbidden.> I agree--the former is a little like a topical application and the latter systemic, I think. > An unbidden opportunity, you do not expect it to happen, but sati can arise. > Good to discuss these things. > And now another subject: Lodewijk said again today to me, be careful when > using the words conditions, accumulations. We may use them too easily, and, > he said, we can make others puzzled or irritated. He himself tends to get > panicky sometimes when hearing these words, he feels a lack of > understanding. This is really food for thought, is there perhaps another way > we can explain these things? I think Lodewijk's right--people who haven't read, for example, Robert's recent post* and are unaware of the use of 'aayuuhana' in the tipitaka can be suspicious of a lot of emphasis on 'accumulations' (I used to be). For those who know some Dhamma this can be pointed out. For others (in some contexts) it's easy enough to see that proclivities or habitual tendencies do accumulate as the result of repeated volitional thoughts, speech and actions. 'Conditions' are a lot more complicated. On either topic, thought, I think it's important to tailor speech to suit the hearer as much as that's possible--easy to be off-putting, I think. mike *Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, where aayuuhana (accumulate) occurs in complex phrases (from Bodhi, 'The Great Discourse on Causation', p 65) about Pa.ticcasamuppaadda: "Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness." ("Gambhiiro, saòkhaaraana.m abhisaòkhara.nAAYUUHANAsaraagaviraaga.t.tho.") ".and [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, and throwing beings into the different modes of origin" (".bhavassa AAYUUHANAAbhisaòkhara.nayo nigati.thitinivaasesu khipana.t.tho") It is an important aspect of Dhamma that is mentioned quite often in the texts. We shouldn't expect it to be easy to understand: "Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING." Robert Kirkpatrick 23662 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear Nina: --- nina van gorkom wrote: Nina:" as I said to > Larry, jhana is extremely difficult, and even more > so the masteries (vasis) > of jhana, and without these no way to have jhana as > a base for insight. And > the right conditions for jhana: a secluded life, > away from sense pleasures, > rebirth-consciousness which is tihetuka, accompanied > by panna." ------------------------------------------------------- Nina, I´ve heard about these remarks at discussions groups in india, stated on mainly by jainists: they do affirm that we are living presently at a Descendent Cycle of Dhamma, that such efforts towards Nibbana by the classical jhanas would be fruitless. Anyway, there is no more Arahats (Arihantas, as the jainists usually say) on modern world... ------------------------------------------------------- But what can > be done: development of insight now in daily life. > Jhana is not necessary to > attain enlightenment, one can become sukkha > vipassaka, with dry insight. ------------------------------------------------------- That sounds good. As many Bhikkus say, "Vipassana IS Abhidhamma"...and I am trying to be a fair sukkha vipassaka! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23663 From: Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi, Jon (and Larry) - In a message dated 7/26/03 5:34:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Larry > > Many thanks for this summary of the 5 benefits of the development of > concentration given at XI, 120-125. I would like to add 1 or 2 > further comments to your summaries, especially for those who do not > have access to the actual text (warning: some points might be > controversial ;-)). > > "1. For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now." > Yes, for those who are already arahants and who develop absorption > concentration with that purpose (i.e., entering into blissful abiding > for extended periods) in mind. See XXI, 120: "For the development of > absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding > here and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop > concentration thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind > for a whole day'. (Note the implication here that attainment of > arahantship is possible without concentration having been developed > to the degree of absorption.) > > "2. For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of > insight." > Yes, the development of both absorption concentration and access > concentration provide this benefit for such people who aspire to > *enlightenment with concentration as basis*. See the full text of > XI, 121. (Note again the implication of the attainment of > stream-entry without concentration having necesarily been developed > to the degree of either access or absorption). > > "3. It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge"." > Yes, for those who aspire to the mundane abhinnas with jhana as > basis. XI, 122. > > "4. For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world." > Yes, for such people who have not lost their jhana and who aspire to > rebirth in the Brahma-world. XI, 123. > > "5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana)." > For 'noble ones' (see XII, 124) who aspire to nirodha-samapatti, it > may serve as the basis for that attainment. I believe the reference > to 'noble ones' here is a reference to anagami's and arahants (i.e., > not exactly the same class as 'Trainers'). > > This passage on the benefits of developing concentration is a very > interesting one, and like much of the Vism is packed full of meaning. > Happy to discuss further. > > Jon > > ========================== In the preceding, the quoted material is the following: o For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now... For the development of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding here and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop concentration thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind for a whole day'. o For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of insight. o It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge" o For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world. o For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana). These show concentration as a factor leading to liberation, and, in a lesser role, leading to pleasant realms of existence for worldings and of "daily vacations" for arahants. The thrust of all this, it seems to me, whether the level of concentration needs to be jhanic or not [Nowhere have I come across access concentration mentioned in the suttas; is it mentioned in the Abhidhamma Pitaka?], is the extreme importance, even centrality, of the development of concentration for one following the Buddha's training. Why do you feel compelled, in each case, to look for a meaning different from the straightforward one? ;-) In the 1st item, there is no implication that "attainment of arahantship is possible without concentration having been developed to the degree of absorption." It's just not in the material, Jon. In the second item, there is no "implication of the attainment of stream-entry without concentration having necesarily been developed to the degree of either access or absorption." None at all. The second item is very clear: For everyone following the Buddha's training, whether worldling or not, concentration is the proximate cause for insight. That's all it says. Items 3 and 5 also require no disclaimer as far as I can see. I am perplexed, Jon, at your "unhappiness" with both (mundane) Right Concentration and Right Effort. The Buddha repeatedly extolled both of these, and instructed his followers to pursue them. Why treat them as second class? With metta, Howard P.S. On a separate issue, with regard to item #1, I have never understood why an arahant would need a "blissful abiding here and now." A living arahant is already supposedly beyond dukkha, beyond craving and aversion. He/she is free. Why the need for a "vacation"? /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23664 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi Howard and Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) > P.S. On a separate issue, with regard to item #1, I have never understood why > an arahant would need a "blissful abiding here and now." A living arahant is > already supposedly beyond dukkha, beyond craving and aversion. He/she is free. > Why the need for a "vacation"? I've always found this interesting, too--it's clear from the suttas that the Buddha often took such 'breaks'. In some cases it's specifically mentioned that he did so for relief from pain from his old back injuries (sorry, no citations off-hand). The closest I've ever come to a tentative conclusion is that the dukkha that ends with nibbaana isn't synonymous with pain and that enduring pain unnecessarily is an extreme (cf. using food to ward off hunger pains or cloths to ward off bugs, etc.). So even with no aversion to pain, the arahant still doesn't endure it unnecessarily, maybe? I'd like to hear more about this. It seems evident from Jon's and Larry's excerpts that "blissful abiding here and now" is only for arahants. I've often used it to refer to mundane jhaana. Are there no references to this for ordinary people? As for 'rebirth in the brahma-world' could this ever refer to momentary (kha.nika) rebirth? The descriptions in the suttas of the cultivation of the brahma-vihaaras has always sounded a lot like a "blissful abiding here and now" to me. mike 23665 From: Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi, Mike (and Jon) - In a message dated 7/26/03 11:23:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > > Hi Howard and Jon, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 7:47 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, > 1) > > >P.S. On a separate issue, with regard to item #1, I have never understood > why > >an arahant would need a "blissful abiding here and now." A living arahant > is > >already supposedly beyond dukkha, beyond craving and aversion. He/she is > free. > >Why the need for a "vacation"? > > I've always found this interesting, too--it's clear from the suttas that the > Buddha often took such 'breaks'. In some cases it's specifically mentioned > that he did so for relief from pain from his old back injuries (sorry, no > citations off-hand). The closest I've ever come to a tentative conclusion > is that the dukkha that ends with nibbaana isn't synonymous with pain and > that enduring pain unnecessarily is an extreme (cf. using food to ward off > hunger pains or cloths to ward off bugs, etc.). So even with no aversion to > pain, the arahant still doesn't endure it unnecessarily, maybe? I'd like to > hear more about this. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. Here is the core of the matter. Yes, a Buddha would still have physical pain - that is, unpleasant "taste" of certain bodily sensations. But there should be no mental pain, no aversion to the unpleasantness or the unpleasant sensations, no dukkha. He/she shouldn't "mind" the physical pain. Is it possibly just that the pain weakens the body, making his activities less effective, and the taking of a respite is merely a pragmatic move? If pain is to be "endured" in the emotional sense, that already implies dislike of the pain, as I understand it. Of course, if to "endure" the pain only means to put up with the limitations on activity imposed by it and does not indicate a struggling, then there is no problem with saying "endure". ----------------------------------------------------- > > It seems evident from Jon's and Larry's excerpts that "blissful abiding here > and now" is only for arahants. I've often used it to refer to mundane > jhaana. Are there no references to this for ordinary people? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm sure that I've read the Buddha instructing his followers in general to use the jhanas as a "blissful abiding here and now." -------------------------------------------------- As for> > 'rebirth in the brahma-world' could this ever refer to momentary (kha.nika) > rebirth? The descriptions in the suttas of the cultivation of the > brahma-vihaaras has always sounded a lot like a "blissful abiding here and > now" to me. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Apples and oranges, Mike. The arising of metta, karuna, mudita, and uppekha are in the moment. Existing in the Brahma-world is a conventional event resulting from having attained certain jhanas. This is my understanding. -------------------------------------------------- > > mike > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23666 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > In the preceding, the quoted material is the following: > > o For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now... For the development > of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful abiding here > and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop concentration > thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind for a whole day'. > > o For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause of > insight. > > o It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge" > > o For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world. > > o For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana). > > These show concentration as a factor leading to liberation, and, in a > lesser role, leading to pleasant realms of existence for worldings and of > "daily vacations" for arahants. The thrust of all this, it seems to me, whether > the level of concentration needs to be jhanic or not [Nowhere have I come across > access concentration mentioned in the suttas; is it mentioned in the > Abhidhamma Pitaka?], is the extreme importance, even centrality, of the development of > concentration for one following the Buddha's training. > Why do you feel compelled, in each case, to look for a meaning > different from the straightforward one? ;-) Hi Howard and Jon (and Mike), Howard, I agree with your points. I am not sure what Jon has against concentration practice…I look forward to his reply. Regarding your other question, I am going to disagree with Mike a bit and state that the reason the arahant practices jhana is to escape conceptual thinking, not simply pain. I think we all can agree that conceptual thinking can be a burden and even though the arahant is free from dukkha, he/she can't be free from conceptual thinking except in the midst of jhana (and during the final release of paranibanna, of course). For support of this conclusion, allow me to quote part of the Bodhi Sutta: "I have heard that on one occasion, when the Blessed One was newly Awakened -- staying at Uruvela by the banks of the Nerañjara River in the shade of the Bodhi tree, the tree of Awakening -- he sat in the shade of the Bodhi tree for seven days in one session, sensitive to the bliss of release. At the end of seven days, after emerging from that concentration, in the third watch of the night, he gave close attention to dependent co-arising in forward and reverse order, thus: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that…" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-03.html You see, the Buddha remained in meditation for seven days even after Enlightenment so that he could be in bliss. However, in order for him to formulate 'the dharma' that he was eventually going to teach to everyone, he had to emerge from that bliss and put his conceptual mind to the situation. I see the jhana practice of an arahant as 'returning to the source'. I guess it is adequate to describe it as a mental vacation…a vacation from conceptual thought. Metta, James 23667 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Dear Larry, op 26-07-2003 00:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > L: Neither the 6 abhinnas nor full mastery of jhana are necessary for > the arising of understanding (panna) but at least access concentration > is necessary. N: Why? I have not seen this in the texts of the Tipitaka and commentaries. Also very, very few people can attain access concentration, according to the Vis. We should not underestimate its difficulty. You mentioned before seclusion from the hindrances and I just read something in the Perfections that may be of interest: Nina. 23668 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Could you give me the link to this? Thank you, Nina. op 26-07-2003 00:21 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > If any of you are interested in having the Pali text of Vism. XIV.1-32 > in a plain text format (15K), you can download zvis14a.txt from the > DSG files folder (it's right at the bottom). 23669 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Ken, It seems to me that seeing the Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta as "conventional" led you to the conclusion that his advice is unsatisfactory. And seeing the Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta as conventional and unsatisfactory, you came up with an interpretation of the four noble truths in connection with your preconception about the discourse. To you, this interpretation is profound and entirely satisfactory. Now, when you say When there is the concept of a course of action (unpleasant or pleasant, profitable or unprofitable), there is, in truth, dukkha. When there is the concept of living being (foolish or wise), there is, in truth, dukkha. The Noble Ones -- the wisest of beings -- directly know that only dhammas are real and that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. do you mean that: "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging- aggregates are dukkha." ? When you say When there is desire to follow one of the four courses of action or when there is desire for existence, then there is the cause of dukkha. do you mean the craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming." ? The Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta in and of itself is conducive and in connection to the cessation of dukkha. It is not necessary to consider the Buddha's teaching as "conventional" or "concept" or even "ultimate" for that matter. Those preconceptions may be misleading in understanding the Dhamma. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi RobM, Victor and Cetasika, > > I am never confident about the interpretation of suttas and [snip] > > In the Thana Sutta, only concepts are directly referred > to. The conventional advice it contains could be > given by any wise person -- an agricultural scientist, > for example. > > Moreover, the conventional advice is unsatisfactory. We > know from experience, that courses of action are neither > entirely pleasant nor entirely unpleasant. When striving > in the field, we can have pleasant experiences of a cool > breeze and when resting on the verandah, we can be > annoyed by biting insects; there are always moments of > pleasure and pain, however brief. > > The same applies to the profitability and unprofitability > of courses of action; in our world, none of these things > is clear cut and absolute. > > However, the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and so, > when he delivered the Thana Sutta, the meaning was > profound and entirely satisfactory -- knowable only to > the wise, unknowable to the fool: > > 1. dukkha > > When there is the concept of a course of action > (unpleasant or pleasant, profitable or unprofitable), > there is, in truth, dukkha. When there is the concept of > living being (foolish or wise), there is, in truth, > dukkha. The Noble Ones -- the wisest of beings -- > directly know that only dhammas are real and that all > conditioned dhammas are dukkha. > > 2. the cause of dukkha > > When there is desire to follow one of the four > courses of action or when there is desire for > existence, then there is the cause of dukkha. > > 3. the cessation of dukkha > > The cessation of desire, and thereby of dukkha, is > Nibbana. > > 4. the path > > The understanding, thought, speech, action, livelihood, > effort, mindfulness and concentration that are unique to > the Noble Ones, lead to Nibbana. > > > Corrections welcome, > Ken H 23670 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 0:34pm Subject: Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) James, I'm just curious. You write: J: "I think we all can agree that conceptual thinking can be a burden and even though the arahant is free from dukkha, he/she can't be free from conceptual thinking except in the midst of jhana (and during the final release of paranibanna, of course)." --> Dan: I agree that conceptual thinking can be a burden, but I understand that it is not a burden for the arahant, who has relinquished burden in the sense you are using it. Also, my understanding is that while vipassana is free from conceptual thinking, jhana is not. Do you have something against conceptual thinking? Dan 23671 From: Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 1:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Hi Jon, Well done. Thanks. I don't have anything further to add. Larry 23672 From: Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Hi Nina, You asked why I think at least access concentration is necessary for the arising of understanding. The main reason is that I don't see any indication in Visuddhimagga that concentration below this level is capable of being the proximate cause of panna. However, I am not clear at all on what access concentration is. Clearly it is a preliminary to absorption concentration in the practice of jhana, but the phrase, "access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]" in Vism XI, 121 suggests to me that access concentration could arise in ordinary circumstances, while shopping for tomatoes for example. I think that is what you and Jon are proposing but you seem to not want to call it access concentration because of the association with jhana. Is that correct? Larry Vism XI, 121: When ordinary people and Trainers develop it [concentration] thinking 'After emerging we shall exercize insight with concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]. Hence the Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is concentrated understands correctly' (S. iii, 13). 23673 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:56pm Subject: Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > James, I'm just curious. You write: > > J: "I think we all can agree that conceptual thinking can be a burden > and even though the arahant is free from dukkha, he/she can't be free > from conceptual thinking except in the midst of jhana (and during the > final release of paranibanna, of course)." > > --> Dan: I agree that conceptual thinking can be a burden, but I > understand that it is not a burden for the arahant, who has > relinquished burden in the sense you are using it. James: Too many people assume what it is like to be an arahant; and for some reason the assumption is that an arahant is existing in continual bliss. That is not the case as is evidenced by the sutta I quoted. I you have alternative information, please present it; I would be very interested. The arahant has to deal with the same mundane realities that we all have to deal with. Conceptual thinking is a part of samsara, just that fact makes it a burden...arahants carry that burden better than wordlings. Also, my > understanding is that while vipassana is free from conceptual > thinking, jhana is not. James: My understanding is the exact opposite. > > Do you have something against conceptual thinking? James: Not any more than everything else in samsara, I would suppose. But I really don't like it when conceptual thinking (intellectual understanding) becomes a substitute for real understanding (direct understanding); it is very dangerous then. > > Dan Metta, James 23674 From: Sarah Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Useful Knowlege from THE BUDDHA Hi Michael, I hope you don't mind me replying on list to this second message you've sent me off-list: --- "Michael(THE BUDDHA)" wrote: > > Sarah, it appears you study old ways. Changes coming for Buddhism > teachings are/will be available at THE BUDDHA's web > pages--www.geocities.com/Michaelbuddha/techie. Only THE BUDDHA's > livesline was created so someone would learn from/teach the next path to > Enlightenment. ...... Thank you for your concern that I -- and other posters you've contacted from DSG -- are studying ‘old ways’ and not sufficiently appreciating the changes you advocate on your website, which I’m sure we’ve all looked at by now. Perhaps you can clarify on DSG exactly what you think is wrong with the ‘old ways’. According to what I read in the texts, all Buddhas teach exactly the same truths. Do you have any textual reference to suggest otherwise? With metta, Sarah ===== > Sarah wrote:Hi Christine, > ..... > Your note just reminded me that a member of this Foundation in Taipei > wrote to DSG a couple of years ago - the following information should be > helpful - I note that at that time they had 3000 copies of this text > (see > ***** below)available for distribution. > > If anyone gets a response, perhaps they'd share it with the list. > Otherwise the (new) soft cover copies from the Pariyatti website Larry > gave the link for are quite reasonably priced these days <.....> 23675 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jon, There's one main point I'd like to make about this ongoing controversy concerning the role of jhaana. I know that you and Nina and other followers of K. Sujin often downplay the importance of developing jhaana, in other words, one doesn't need it if one follows the way of the sukkhavipassaka or dry-insight worker. I have no problem with anyone following that way. The problem is how does one know if that is the right way to take up given the particular individual's situation and should a dry-insight worker decree that all should do likewise? After all there are a number of other equally possible approaches, in addition. For myself and at this stage of the game, I simply cannot predetermine exactly how enlightenment will come about for me and for all I know it could be as an insight-worker. I like to keep all my options open and to follow the method in full as laid out in the Visuddhimagga sounds very acceptable even if it's impossible for me to come anywhere near the jhaanas in this lifetime. But that doesn't rule out the possibility that the work I do in this lifetime may help in achieving jhaanic states in some future life. Maybe I'm in for the long haul, at least a 100,000 kalpas. Jim > Jim and Nina > > Jim, many thanks for your contributions so far on this project. It > has been very useful having your input. > > There are a number of passages in Vism that are relevant to the > thread you two are discussing here. I hope you don't mind me butting > in with one such set of references. 23676 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Dear James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: Dan D: " Also, my > > understanding is that while vipassana is free from > conceptual > > thinking, jhana is not." James: "My understanding is the exact opposite." ------------------------------------------------------- I must agree with James. When one deals with Vipassana, practising it diligently as a sukha vipassaka, The Dhamma becomes as clear as your own efforts and...huh...efficiency afford you to root down your conscience. At least these are my feelings about it when I am reading The Dhammasanganipali, for example... and some Bhikkus make a clear stand about it: Vipassana is Abhidhamma. Jhana is much more elusive to our understanding, and at present Cycle of Dhamma a subject entirely free from conceptual thinking! ------------------------------------------------------- > > Dan D: " Do you have something against conceptual thinking?" > James: "Not any more than everything else in samsara, > I would > suppose. But I really don't like it when conceptual > thinking > (intellectual understanding) becomes a substitute > for real > understanding (direct understanding); it is very > dangerous then." ------------------------------------------------------- Ditto! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23677 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Useful Knowlege from THE BUDDHA Dear Sara, --- Sarah wrote: Sara: "Thank you for your concern that I -- and other > posters you've contacted > from DSG -- are studying ‘old ways’ and not > sufficiently appreciating the > changes you advocate on your website, which I’m sure > we’ve all looked at > by now. > > Perhaps you can clarify on DSG exactly what you > think is wrong with the > ‘old ways’." ------------------------------------------------------- Sara, Michael - as a self-assigned Buddha - got some original ideas about how to change the bad features of the Universe and a touching, sincere, warm desire to teach the wrongdoers. Please don´t mistake his verve with any lack of Sila! ------------------------------------------------------ Sara: "According to what I read in the texts, all Buddhas > teach exactly the same > truths. Do you have any textual reference to suggest > otherwise?" ------------------------------------------------------- He could dictate his own Suttas! Why not ? metta, Ícarvs > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23678 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vipassana and abhidhamma. Hi Icaro, op 26-07-2003 15:05 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > That sounds good. > As many Bhikkus say, "Vipassana IS Abhidhamma"...and > I am trying to be a fair sukkha vipassaka! N: I am glad when people understand this. Many think that Abhidhamma is theory, but it is meant to be applied in life, and therefore one can say, vipassana is the application of the Abhidhamma. Let us discuss more details, looking forward to discussions with you, Nina. 23679 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Howard I suspect there has been a misunderstanding. The five numbered statements that I quoted in my post are Larry's summary of Vism XI, 120-124 dealing with the benefits of the development of concentration. They are not statements taken directly from the text, as you seem to be implying. So although those statements tend to support the view that mundane concentration is a factor leading to liberation, I think this is something that should be considered on the basis of the actual text rather than Larry's summary of it. For example, in the case of Larry's No. 5, I read the text as referring to noble ones (not Trainers) and to the attainment of cessation, i.e., nirodha-samapatti (not the attainment of enlightenment). No problem, of course, just a clarification. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Larry) - ... > ========================== > In the preceding, the quoted material is the following: > > o For arahants, a blissful abiding here and now... For the > development > of absorption concentration provides the benefit of a blissful > abiding here > and now for the Arahants with cankers destroyed who develop > concentration > thinking 'We shall attain and dwell with unified mind for a whole > day'. > > o For ordinary people and Trainers it is the proximate cause > of insight. > > o It is the proximate cause of "direct knowledge" > > o For ordinary people rebirth in the Brahma world. > > o For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana). > > These show concentration as a factor leading to liberation, > and, in a > lesser role, leading to pleasant realms of existence for worldings > and of > "daily vacations" for arahants. The thrust of all this, it seems to > me, whether > the level of concentration needs to be jhanic or not [Nowhere have > I come across > access concentration mentioned in the suttas; is it mentioned in > the > Abhidhamma Pitaka?], is the extreme importance, even centrality, of > the development of > concentration for one following the Buddha's training. > Why do you feel compelled, in each case, to look for a > meaning different from the straightforward one? ;-) 23680 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipassana and abhidhamma. Nina: "I am glad when people understand this. Many think that Abhidhamma is > theory, but it is meant to be applied in life, and therefore one can say, > vipassana is the application of the Abhidhamma. > Let us discuss more details, > looking forward to discussions with you, > Nina." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hartelijk dank, Nina! I will be very glad to discuss about Abhidhamma with you, despite the fact that I´ve read only the first chapter of The Dhammasanganipali, and many reviews about the other books of this own Pitaka. The first remark I recall about this great text is its total clearness of teaching: one gets a direct approach at the very structure, the very heart of Dhamma, from Kusala and Akusala to Tika and Duka, and the classification of The Cetasikas: 1. that which arises together with consciousness 2. that which perishes together with consciousness 3. that which has an identical object with consciousness 4. that which has a common basis with consciousness. The EXCELENT works by you, Robmoult and others in these group gave me much to read, think...and write! Tot Straks! Metta, Ícarvs 23681 From: rahula_80 Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:29am Subject: Need to hold on.... Hi, What is the Buddhist response to this situation: "I need someone or something to hold on to. And that "someone" is God. It gave me comfort during trying times etc. Man can't do everything alone...." Thanks, Rahula 23682 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need to hold on.... Hi Rahula, --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > > What is the Buddhist response to this situation: > > "I need someone or something to hold on to. And that "someone" is > God. It gave me comfort during trying times etc. Man can't do > everything alone...." ..... metta....karuna, upekkha and sati.... Metta, Sarah ======= 23683 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Icaro, --- icarofranca wrote: > Hi Sarah! > I am brazillian, living at Rio de Janeiro City. Presently my > occupation is as Mechanical Engineer, with MSc in Robotic and > Automation, assigned at Brazillian´s Air Force. My interest on > Buddhism is deeply grounded in my teens - when I was a compulsive > reader of all matters of the Doctrine of Buddha and about Oriental > culture as a whole. > The Practice of Yoga, meditation and sports had preserved me to > become the typical nerd... Thanks for your great and colourful intro:-) I know everyone will have been glad to read more about you and will be greatly appreciating your posts and keen interest here. We have another long-term Brazilian member, Leonardo, here. Perhaps one day he’ll pop out of lurk mode to welcome you too. Your work sounds interesting - we don’t have so many mechanical engineers from Brazil’s air-force here and your interests don’t make you sound like a typical nerd at all - (I mean. I do yoga and I’m not a nerd....;-)) > And now, with some free time to spend at my will, I am reading and > studying on The Abhidhamma, the "Crême de la crême" of the Buddha´s > Pali Canon. I´m fascinated by its concise reasonings and profundity ! > It´s the summit of all Dhamma. I couldn’t express my sentiments better.... You’ll find not everyone here shares the same enthusiasm for the Abhidhamma Pitaka however.....;-) > There´s a lot goin´on !!! Thanks to all the contributors and keen interest in the Pali Canon Look forward to reading more of your comments, Metta, Sarah ===== 23684 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:07am Subject: Path condition (was: object condition) Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > You gave me rather more than I could digest concerning Path Condition. > Could you decifer the abbreviations and give a very short explanation of > the Conditioning States and Conditioned states for Path Condition in the > table on p. 311, CMA? Maybe this weekend. No rush. If my previous message was rather more than you could digest, you better get out the antacid now because explaining the entries in Table 8.3 gets quite involved. Table 8.3 if CMA lists the possible conditioning states and the possible conditioned states for each of the twenty-four types of conditions. Note that the conditioning states and the conditioned states must all be paramattha dhammas. Consider the first row of the table. In this row, we are describing the nature of "root condition" (the first of the twenty-four conditions). In order for "root condition" to apply, something has to exist first. The things that have to exist first are the conditioning states. Only when the conditioning states are in place can the "root condition" come into play. In the case of "root condition", the conditioning states are the six roots (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha). Only one of these conditioning states is necessary for "root condition" to come into play. Once "root condition" comes into play, there are a number of possible conditioned states that may arise. These conditioned states are related to the conditioning states through "root condition". In the case of "root condition", the conditioned states are: - 71 rooted cittas - 52 cetasikas except moha conascent with two delusion rooted cittas - rupa born of rooted cittas - kamma born rupa at the time of a rooted rebirth The 71 rooted cittas are related to the appropriate roots (lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha) through root condition. In the 18 rootless (ahetuka) cittas, root condition does not come into play. This is an example of a citta being linked to specific cetasikas through root condition. If the root conditions the citta, it must also condition the conascent cetasikas (conascent = arising at the same time). All 52 cetasikas arise in at least one of the rooted cittas and when they arise in a rooted citta, the cetasikas are linked to the root through root condition. The exception to this rule is the cetasika moha when it arises in moha-rooted cittas. This makes sense because a thing cannot condition itself. To explain further, when the cetasika moha arises in a lobha rooted citta, the cetasika moha is related to lobha through root condition. In this citta, the other cetasikas (except the cetasika lobha itself) are related to lobha through root condition and at the same time are related moha through root condition (except the moha cetasika itself). Now in the two moha-rooted cittas, all of the cetasikas can be related to moha through root condition, but the cetasika moha cannot be related to itself and there are no other roots in that citta to which it can be related through root condition. There are four different things that can cause rupa to arise; kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. The rupas that can arise from citta include earth, water, fire, wind, visible object, odour, flavour, nutrition, sound, body intimation, speech intimation, buoyancy, plasticity, wieldiness and space. If the citta which caused any of these rupa to arise happened to be one of the 71 rooted cittas, then the rupa is related to the root(s) of the citta through root condition. The rebirth linking citta (patisandhi citta) does not produce citta- born rupa because the citta is new to that existence (subsequent cittas do produce citta-born rupa). The rupa that arises at the time of rebirth is kamma-born (it includes life faculty rupa, heart-base rupa to support cittas, etc.). If the patisandhi citta has roots (there are some patisandhi cittas without roots; people born disabled, etc.), then the kamma-born rupa is related to these roots though root condition. Sorry Larry, I thought that I would take a simple example to explain the terms "condition", "conditioning states" and "conditioned states". Now I realize that none of them are simple. The good news is that the conditioned states associated with path condition are almost the same as the conditioned states associated with root condition. Now let's move on to your question regarding path condition (magga-paccaya), the eighteenth of the twenty-four conditions. The conditioning states (what has to be present before path condition comes into play) are: 1. panna (wisdom) with associated rooted cittas 2. vitakka (initial application) with associated rooted cittas 3. vaci-duccarita virati (abstinence from wrong speech; one of the three abstinences) with associated rooted cittas 4. kaya-duccarita virati (abstinence from wrong action; one of the three abstinences) with associated rooted cittas 5. ajiva-duccarita virati (abstinence from wrong livelihood; one of the three abstinences) with associated rooted cittas 6. viriya (energy) with associated rooted cittas 7. sati (mindfulness) with associated rooted cittas 8. ekaggata (one pointedness) with associated rooted cittas 9. ditthi (wrong view) with associated rooted cittas These are the nine cetasikas referred to in Table 8.3 of CMA under path condition. These nine cetasikas are only conditioning states when they are conascent (arise with) the 71 rooted cittas. For example, ekaggata can arise in the 18 rootless cittas and when it does, ekaggata is not a conditioning state for path condition. The conditioned states are the same as described above for root condition; the only difference being that with path condition, there is no need to exclude moha in the two moha-rooted cittas. The nine cetasikas listed above are path-factors. Path-factors can be akusala cetasikas (constitute the wrong path) or they can be sobhana cetasikas (constitute the right path). Path-factors of the wrong path lead to an unhappy rebirth. Path-factors of the right path lead to a happy rebirth. Path-factors of the right path lead to deliverance from samsara when they are constituents of the noble eightfold Path. Larry, in my previous message, I listed twelve path factors but this time I am only listing nine; this is because only a paramattha Dhamma can be a conditioning state. The last three path factors from my previous message are not cetasikas: - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they are not conditioning states of path condition. Larry, if you want to know more about path condition, I suggest that you read Nina's book, "24 Conditions", Chapter 15, pp 127-135. Sorry for the indigestion. Metta, Rob M :-) 23685 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > So although those statements tend to support the view that mundane > concentration is a factor leading to liberation, I think this is > something that should be considered on the basis of the actual text > rather than Larry's summary of it. Hi Jon, I don't understand, maybe you can help me. If you feel that it is inappropriate for Howard to draw conclusions based on this summary text from Larry, why did you do the very same thing, first? Metta, James 23686 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] chanting and transference of merits to petas Hi PC, --- bodhi dhamma wrote: > Sarah, thank you for your reply, > > sorry for my late response as I am busy with the works. > The recent upsurge in regional stock market really make me a busy man > from 9 to 5 ( I work as a stock dealer with three telephones on my desk > ). .... Late responses are just fine with me and I’m glad to hear that business is good;-) Like RobK, I’m glad to hear your comments a lot. It’s good to have a stock dealer here as well and I don’t think you need to think of having a ‘wrong livelihood’ as long as there’s no need to decieve or break precepts in your work. We discussed before how in an ‘ultimate’ sense, right and wrong livelihood are just a moment. There are dhammas to be known in your work, just as in any other lifestyle and many opportunities for metta and karuna (compassion) from what you say about the punters you have contact with. Sometimes I think of life or lives as being like a chart of stock prices. If we look at just a day or week, it may seem that there are some really big ups and downs, good and bad fortunes, but over months, years, decades and especially lifetimes, these same ups and downs become hardly perceptible blips. Whilst you’d advise your clients to just look at where the present stock is and not cry over spilt milk or fantasise about the future one, in the same way, there is only ever the present reality. However, a long-term perspective and appreciation of the rounds of samsara can help us to see that the present one is so very common and ordinary and unsatisfactory too;-) “What can go up can go down” was the favourite slogan in boom times here -- I haven’t heard it for a while;-( Thanks for sharing your experiences and comments, PC. It’s good for everyone to see how understanding of the Dhamma can develop whatever the lifestyle. Good to hear about your discussions with your class as well on chanting. I think the chanting’s helpful as long as there isn’t any encouragement to cling to the particular experiences the members mention or special desire to have them. Please share more of your comments and discussions and anything from RobM’s book as well. With metta, Sarah ====== 23687 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification Hi PeterV, Welcome to DSG too.... We'd also be glad to hear where you live and anything else you care to share. I think the reason that you won't find the Vism in its entirety on a website is for copyright reasons.... obviously publishers need to see books to be able to keep producing them. I meant to mention to Icaro and other newbies that they may be interested to look at some selected posts from the archives at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts There's also a very simple Pali glossary at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Hope to hear more from you. Metta, Sarah ====== --- vajramantra wrote: > Dear all, > > Does anyone know where the above mentioned work can be downloaded > from? > > Thanks, > > Peter 23688 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi PeterD, I was also very glad to hear your news and I hope your plans work out as you wish, Peter. Please let us know - you have many friends here. Also, please don't worry if your emails sound cryptic or if there are spelling mistakes - we're just glad to hear from you;-) If you have any problem with your yahoo account or if there's anything we can do to help from our end, please let us know on or off-list. If you have any other difficulties we can assist with too, please let Jon or myself know too. With metta, Sarah ====== --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi Jon et al > > Thanks for the offer. Right now I'm in Udon, holed up for a couple > of > weeks, so have a chance to access DSG from a local Internet Cafe. > With more time to hand, can be a little more coherent. I do > apreciate > your offers for assistance, very heartening to know. 23689 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/27/03 4:49:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > I suspect there has been a misunderstanding. The five numbered > statements that I quoted in my post are Larry's summary of Vism XI, > 120-124 dealing with the benefits of the development of > concentration. They are not statements taken directly from the text, > as you seem to be implying. > > So although those statements tend to support the view that mundane > concentration is a factor leading to liberation, I think this is > something that should be considered on the basis of the actual text > rather than Larry's summary of it. For example, in the case of > Larry's No. 5, I read the text as referring to noble ones (not > Trainers) and to the attainment of cessation, i.e., nirodha-samapatti > (not the attainment of enlightenment). > > No problem, of course, just a clarification. > > Jon > ============================== Thank you very much, Jon. Yes, you are quite correct. I *did* misunderstand! I'm sorry for the mistake, and I thank you for the correction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23690 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi, James - In a message dated 7/27/03 8:35:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > >Howard > > >So although those statements tend to support the view that mundane > >concentration is a factor leading to liberation, I think this is > >something that should be considered on the basis of the actual text > >rather than Larry's summary of it. > > Hi Jon, > > I don't understand, maybe you can help me. If you feel that it is > inappropriate for Howard to draw conclusions based on this summary > text from Larry, why did you do the very same thing, first? > > Metta, James > > ============================= James, Jon had realized that what Larry wrote was Larry's summary of material from the text, and Jon then went to the effort of directly checking the text itself. (I didn't infer from Jon's post either of those facts. I presumed Larry was quoting from the text and Jon was *reinterpreting* in a way that seemed cavalier to me.) It's innocent all around. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23691 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - James, Jon had realized that what Larry wrote was Larry's summary of > material from the text, and Jon then went to the effort of directly checking > the text itself. (I didn't infer from Jon's post either of those facts. I > presumed Larry was quoting from the text and Jon was *reinterpreting* in a way that > seemed cavalier to me.) It's innocent all around. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard and Jon, Okay, that whole thread was a bust. I'm so turned around over that thread I have no idea who was trying to make what point. That's okay, now I have lost interest. Thanks for clearing that up for me and my apologies to Jon. Metta, James 23692 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Dear Sara, Sara: "Thanks for your great and colourful intro:-) I know > everyone will have > been glad to read more about you and will be greatly > appreciating your > posts and keen interest here." ------------------------------------------------------ Well, thanks! As I´ve said before, I am only an "Amateur" on Buddhism! ------------------------------------------------------ Sara: "I couldn’t express my sentiments better.... You’ll find not everyone here > shares the same enthusiasm for the Abhidhamma Pitaka > however.....;-)" ------------------------------------------------------ YEAH !!!!! :-)) I am quite impresssed with The Abhidhamma... and I did hit only the First Chapter of the Dhammasanganipali! And the Comys and reviews of the people here, mainly the excelents Robmoult´s and Von Gorkom´s, cleared up the path for a more and more accurate understanding of the ultimate remarks of Dhamma. Sara, I am really getting ripe fruits here at this group!!! ------------------------------------------------------ > Sara: "Thanks to all the contributors and keen interest in > the Pali Canon" ------------------------------------------------------ I´ve already downloaded many of the files at dhamastudygroup...It seems to me that Santa Claus visited me at July!!!! I am reading all of them eagerly...but always keeping my breath at a calm rhythm of "Up and Down...Up and Down". Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23693 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:48am Subject: Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Sarah, Thank you for your reply. I think both of us understand that the term "desire" is to be understood in its context. And I don't think we have major disaggreement in that respect. I don't quite understand what you mean by the following in your message. Please explain. Thank you. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] > So on account of what objects are these wholesome states and right effort > supposed to arise? On account of just the same objects which are usually > the objects of attachment, ignorance and aversion. In otherwords, the > `All' are to be known by right understanding and accompanying factors. > > "Forms, sounds, odours, tastes, > Tactiles and all objects of mind - > Desirable, lovely, agreeable, > So long as it's said: `They are.' > > "These are considered happiness > By the world with its devas; > But where these cease, > That they consider suffering. > > "The noble ones have seen as happiness > The ceasing of identity. > This (view) of those who clearly see > Runs counter to the entire world. > > "What others speak of as happiness, > That the noble ones say is suffering; > What others speak of as suffering, > That the noble ones know as bliss." > > (SN, Sa.laayatanavagga, Bk of Six Sense Bases., 136 Delight in Forms) > ..... > I may add other comments on your further points later, but I think I'll > see if we're close to any kind of agreement here first of all. > > Metta, > > Sarah 23694 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My time with A. Sujin 8. Dear Kio, here is the last of my series. Unless you have more questions :-) op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > Such insight will enable us to become > aware of what is going on – in terms of cause and effect > relationship to see the cause of suffering, etc. Such cause and > effect relationship lead to the experiential understanding of four > noble truths. So, practicing the `process' (may I also say, sila- > samadhi-panna?) will lead to elimination of suffering. My Time with A. Sujin. 8. My husband and I took part of many excursions with A. Sujin and other friends whenever we visited Thailand again. We went to nature reserves in the north of Thailand, to Nakom Phanom and other places in the provinces. For our Dhamma discussions A. Sujin always tries to arrange for pleasant surroundings and a relaxed atmosphere. With the help of her sister Khun Jeed and our friend Khun Duangduen she sees to it that we have delicious and well-balanced meals. There is no end to their hospitality. The right climate and suitable food can be favourable conditions for the citta that develops right understanding. During our visits to Thailand and during our pilgrimages to India we discussed Dhamma and whenever we talked about personal problems in daily life, she would give us the most practical advice. This helped us to see our problems in the light of the Dhamma. When we discussed deep subjects of the Dhamma such as the Dependent origination and the four noble Truths, she would always relate these to our daily life. We read in the Tipiìaka about the four noble Truths: dukkha, the cause of dukkha which is craving, the cessation of dukkha which is nibbåna and the way leading to the cessation of dukkha, which is the eightfold Path. A. Sujin stressed that we should not have merely theoretical understanding of the four noble Truths. Dukkha and the cause of dukkha pertain to our life at this moment. The way leading to the cessation is the development of right understanding of the realities appearing at this moment. When insight has been developed stage by stage nibbåna can be attained. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (V, 420, Dhamma-Cakkappavattana vagga, §1), that the Buddha said, ³in short, the five khandhas are dukkha². When the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa , thus their impermanence, is realized, dukkha can be understood. What falls away immediately is not worth clinging to, it is dukkha. We have to develop insight stage by stage. We have to develop understanding of hardness when it appears through the bodysense during all our activities in daily life. We do not have to think, this is hard, and we do not have to think of the place where it touches; its characteristic can be known when it appears. Gradually we can learn that the characteristic of nåma is different from the characteristic of rúpa. When we take nåma and rúpa as a whole, the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time cannot be realized. They can not be realized as dukkha and we shall continue to take them for a person or a thing that exists. Craving, the cause of dukkha, arises time and again and it causes us to continue in the cycle of birth and death. A. Sujin reminded us to be aware of clinging at this moment. We should know when there is clinging to awareness, to having a great deal of understanding. If we do not realize such moments we do not follow the right Path. Intellectual understanding of the fact that each reality arises because of its own conditions can help us to follow the right Path, and then we shall not be inclined to try to select particular realities as objects of mindfulness and try to make mindfulness arise. It arises because of its own conditions. She said, ³Awareness is like an atom in a day², meaning that there are not many moments. How could this be otherwise; we have accumulated such a great deal of ignorance. We are in the cycle of birth and death, and during this cycle, cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another. Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of the following citta, and in this way all wholesome and unwholesome qualities of the past have been accumulated from moment to moment. Even so all wholesome and unwholesome qualities that arise at the present are accumulated and they will condition our life in the future. When ignorance arises today, it does so because it is conditioned by past moments of ignorance, even during aeons. When understanding arises today, it does so because it is conditioned by past moments of understanding. Even if there is a short moment of right understanding now, it is not lost, it is accumulated and thus there are conditions for its arising later on. A. Sujin said that this is like saving a penny a day, which can become a big fortune. During all our journeys and visits to Thailand she stressed that the four noble Truths are realized in different phases. First there should be firm understanding of what the object of right understanding is and how right understanding should be developed. This is the first phase (sacca ñåna, understanding of the truth). When understanding of the truth, the first phase, is firmly established, one will not deviate from the right Path, that is, right awareness and precise understanding of the characteristic of the reality that appears. The first phase is the foundation of the practice, which is the second phase (kicca ñåna, understanding of the task). This again is the foundation of the realization of the truth (kata ñåna, understanding of what has been done). I remember that we were walking in India with one of the Thai monks and that A. Sujin was repeatedly stressing these three phases. Hearing the Dhamma again and again helps us to remember what was explained and to reflect on it. When we read about the four noble Truths we may not realize that they can only be understood and applied in different phases and that we can begin right now. A. Sujin would always remind us that there is seeing at this moment. We do not have to be in a quiet place to understand seeing; there is seeing no matter where we are. Seeing can gradually be known as a reality that experiences only what appears through the eyes, visible object. This is the beginning of the first phase of understanding the four noble truths. The Buddha taught the development of understanding of our life at this very moment. The Abhidhamma is not technical, not theoretical, it teaches about citta, cetasika and rúpa, realities arising all the time. I am most grateful to A. Sujin for pointing out to us time and again that we should understand our life at this very moment. What she explained is completely in conformity with the Buddha¹s teachings. Nina. 23695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1,access concentration Hi Larry, op 26-07-2003 23:29 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > You asked why I think at least access concentration is necessary for the > arising of understanding. The main reason is that I don't see any > indication in Visuddhimagga that concentration below this level is > capable of being the proximate cause of panna. However, I am not clear > at all on what access concentration is. Clearly it is a preliminary to > absorption concentration in the practice of jhana, N: Yes, it is a high degree of samadhi, and it can arise when the yogavacara develops tranquil meditation with one of the meditation subjects. It precedes absorption. Panna is necessary for the development of samatha, one has to know very precisely when kusala citta with calm arises and when akusala citta with wrong concentration, miccha samadhi, arises. Indeed, this is most difficult, because lobha can trick one all the time. One has to be very sincere as to one's practice. There may be a trance-like condition one takes for jhana, but which is in reality wrong concentration. One may even be able to have special powers with wrong concentration. Also as to access concentration the Visuddhimagga states that only very, very few people can attain it. There have to be the right conditions, one has to live a secluded life, away from sense pleasures. L:> in crowded [circumstances]" in Vism XI, 121 suggests to me that access > concentration could arise in ordinary circumstances, while shopping for > tomatoes for example. N: No. L:I think that is what you and Jon are proposing but > you seem to not want to call it access concentration because of the > association with jhana. Is that correct? N: No. Let us look again at the text: > Vism XI, 121: When ordinary people and Trainers develop it > [concentration] thinking 'After emerging we shall exercize insight with > concentrated consciousness', the development of absorption concentration > provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate > cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of > arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]. Hence the > Blessed One said: 'Bhikkhus, develop concentration; a bhikkhu who is > concentrated understands correctly' (S. iii, 13). N: crowded sircumstances: the household life. Remember the texts about the going forth. Wide open conditions: the monk's life, away from sense pleasures: "Narrow is the household life, a path of dust, Going forth is in the open." During jhana there are no sense impressions and no attachment to them. Freedom from the hindrances which are suppressed. But remember the text I just gave to you from the Perfections: panna knows when there are hindrances and when there are not. This is very difficult, it cannot be known without panna. Lobha, the foe, comes in the disguise of a friend. When there is access concentration just before jhanacitta arises the hindrances are suppressed. Thus the text about concentration being the proximate cause for insight should be seen within the context. This text cannot be used without discrimination. Nina. 23696 From: vajramantra Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 0:08pm Subject: Karma and reincarnation Hello all, Is it possible to actually experience the law of karma and reincarnation through the practice of meditation? I mean, Buddhism is known as a dogma-free spiritual system, still, when we look around, we often see that good people suffer while bad people rejoyce. I know this is just the surface, and we always hear from teachers that karma does work, even if we do not see it. But this is still a kind of faith, and Buddha taught that we should not accept something just because it comes from somebody we respect, but we should carefully analyze and examine whether the teaching is correct or not. So how can one examine whether karma and reincarnation are facts one can experience and not only something we - as Buddhists - are supposed to accept? I hope there is an answer that goes beyond "it must be true because Buddha said so". Peter 23697 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 0:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Sutta Nipata Comy Hi Sarah, The Sutta Nipata is a collection of 71 short suttas. Is this what you are talking about? The comy is long. I could look up the comy on the specific sutta. Giving you the entire comy would be tough. :-) kom > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 10:40 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Sutta Nipata Comy > > > Dear Sarah and Kom, > op 23-07-2003 10:39 schreef Sarah op > sarahdhhk@y...: > > > > > The translation to the Sutta Nipata Comy has > been high on my ‘wish’ list > > for a long time. Out of interest, is it a long > text, like the Udana Comy, > > or a short one? 23698 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1,access concentration Hi Nina, I have found that the term "access" is used in two ways in the Visuddhimagga. First, in the usual way as access to absorption and secondly as a technical term synonymous with "conformity consciousness" (see below). I would propose that it be used in a third way as access to insight. As such it is still secluded from the hindrances in the moment of its manifestation as it would have to be accompanied by sati and the other universal beautiful cetasikas in order for it to be a proximate cause for panna (understanding). That being the case, there would be at last a tiny fraction of a moment of piti accompanying it. [this being our original bone of contention] Incidentally, I have been trying to understand what concentration is in the context of citta process. The best I could come up with is maybe it is a mild "repeat" inducement causing the consciousness to (sometimes) repeat rather than going on to something else. Could you clarify this? Larry Vism XXI, 129: He thinks 'Now the path will arise.' Equanimity about formations after comprehending formations as impermanent, or as painful, or as not-self, sinks into the life-continuum. Next to the life-continuum, mind-door adverting arises making formations its object as impermanent or as painful or as not-self according to the way taken by equanimity about formations. Then next to the functional [adverting] conciousness that arose displacing the life-continuum, the first impulsion consciousness arises making formations its object in the same way, maintaining the continuity of consciousness. This is called the 'preliminary work'. Next to that a second impulsion consciousness arises making formations its object in the same way. This is called 'access'. Next to that a third impulsion consciousness also arises making formations its object in the same way. This is called 'conformity'. These are their individual names. But it is admissable to call all three impulsions 'repitition' or 'preliminary-work' or 'access' or 'conformity' indiscriminately. 23699 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Path condition (was: object condition) Hi Rob, This is surprisingly clarifying. The main mistake I was making was in reading a colon for a semicolon. I still don't understand most of it but reading it again is helpful. One question. You said a conditioning state couldn't be a concept but concept can be an Object Condition conditioning state (and I think a couple of other conditions that are practically the same as Object Condition). So what does that do to this argument: Rob: "Larry, in my previous message, I listed twelve path factors but this time I am only listing nine; this is because only a paramattha Dhamma can be a conditioning state. The last three path factors from my previous message are not cetasikas: - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they are not conditioning states of path condition." Larry 23700 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 2:58pm Subject: direct knowledge Hi all, As a matter of curiosity I thought you might like to know there are two kinds of "direct knowledge" in the Visuddhimagga. The super advanced abhinnas we have discussed that can only be accessed after mastering jhana, and knowledge acquired between access and absorption concentration: Vism III,15: Herein, the development of concentration that occurs from the time of the first consciousness reaction up to the arising of the access of a given jhana is called "progress". And the understanding that occurs from the time of access until absorption is called "direct-knowledge". Larry 23701 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Natural decisive support condition (was: Path condition (was: object condition)) Hi Larry, Oops! I was wrong to generalize. Concepts can act as conditioning states for object condition and natural decisive support condition. Natural decisive support condition is one of the most important conditions. Kamma is the natural decisive support condition for the vipaka it creates. When repeated frequently, kusala and akusala become habitual and are powerful inducement for the future arising of kusala and akusala vipaka, even in future lives. For example, in a previous life, Angulimala had been a man-eating Yakkha. External conditions such as food, dwelling place and friends can also be natural decisive support conditions for the dhammas which they cause to arise. Faith may be a direct and natural inducement to charity, virtue to mental training, greed to theft, hate to murder, unsuitable food and climate to ill-health and friends to spiritual progress or deterioration. It is important to know why we study conditions. Visuddhimagga, Chapter XVII covers the application of conditions to the 11 links of paticcasamuppada. For example, paragraphs 102-104 explain the conditions that link ignorance as a conditioning state and kammic formations is a conditioned state. I have described this before on DSG, but I repeat it here for your reference: Ignorance is moha in the 12 akusala cittas. Kamma-formations refers to the active formation of wholesome or unwholesome kamma through volitional activities. There are three types of kamma-formations: - demeritorious (cetana in 12 akusala cittas) - meritorious (cetana in 8 kamavacara kusala cittas and 5 rupavacara kusala cittas) - imperturbable (cetana in 4 arupavacara kusala cittas) Ignorance conditions kusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: - Object Condition: When one comprehends by means of insight that ignorance leads to unhappy states (kamavacara and rupavacara) - Natural Decisive Support Condition: When ignorance (conceit, vanity, etc.) motivates one to good deeds (kamavacara, rupavacara and arupavacara) Delusion conditions akusala kamma (cetana cetasika) by: - Root Condition: Moha is a root of all akusala cittas - Object Condition: When one is deluded into thinking that ignorance is a happy state - Object Predominance Condition / Decisive Support of Object Condition: When one remembers a past akusala (deluded) state but does not see it as akusala - Proximity Condition / Contiguity Condition: There is no separation in time or space between the arising of moha and the arising of the associated citta and cetasikas - Co-nascence Condition: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas arise together - Mutuality Condition: Moha and the associated citta and cetasikas mutually support and mutually reinforce each other - Support Condition: Moha supports the other akusala cetasikas - Natural Decisive Support Condition: Moha, together with greed or aversion, motivate one to perform bad deeds - Repetition Condition: Moha in the first akusala javana citta conditions delusion in the second and so on - Association Condition: Moha is associated with its cittas and cetasikas through a common base, common base, common arising and common falling away - Presence Condition / Non-Disappearance Condition: The presence of moha allows the citta and other cetasikas to arise - Absence Condition / Disappearance Condition: When the first akusala javana citta falls away, this creates the condition for the second akusala javana citta to arise (up to the seventh akusala javana citta) Paragraphs 177-181 explain the conditions that link kammic formations as a conditioning state and consciousness as a conditioned state. In this case, there are two conditions at work; asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. As one goes through all the 11 links, the importance of natural decisive support becomes apparent. I think of natural decisive support condition as "motivation by accumulations"; this reminds me of the importance of doing kusala every day to make it a habit. Management textbooks will tell you that the way to change behaviour is to instill routines. Larry, sorry for going off on a bit of a tangent. I wanted to link our discussion of conditions to daily life. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > This is surprisingly clarifying. The main mistake I was making was in > reading a colon for a semicolon. I still don't understand most of it but > reading it again is helpful. > > One question. You said a conditioning state couldn't be a concept but > concept can be an Object Condition conditioning state (and I think a > couple of other conditions that are practically the same as Object > Condition). So what does that do to this argument: > > Rob: "Larry, in my previous message, I listed twelve path factors but > this time I am only listing nine; this is because only a paramattha > Dhamma can be a conditioning state. The last three path factors from my > previous message are not cetasikas: > - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) > - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) > - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) > These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they are not > conditioning states of path condition." > > Larry 23702 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:47pm Subject: Re: Karma and reincarnation Hi Peter V, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > Is it possible to actually experience the law of karma and > reincarnation through the practice of meditation? I mean, Buddhism is > known as a dogma-free spiritual system, still, when we look around, > we often see that good people suffer while bad people rejoyce. I know > this is just the surface, and we always hear from teachers that karma > does work, even if we do not see it. But this is still a kind of > faith, and Buddha taught that we should not accept something just > because it comes from somebody we respect, but we should carefully > analyze and examine whether the teaching is correct or not. So how > can one examine whether karma and reincarnation are facts one can > experience and not only something we - as Buddhists - are supposed to > accept? I hope there is an answer that goes beyond "it must be true > because Buddha said so". There is a common misconception that Buddhism has no place for "faith" or "doctrine" based on a misinterpretation of a single passage in the Kalama Sutta, taken out of context. The famous passage in the Kalama Sutta (Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumour, nor upon scripture...) was given to a group of people: - Who were not followers of the Buddha - Who came to the Buddha, not to understand the Buddha's teaching, but rather because they were confused after hearing many other teachers - Like you, Peter V, the Kalamas were confused over the issues of kamma and rebirth In this Sutta, the Buddha was explaining that one does not need faith or doctrine to establish a moral foundation (greed, hate and delusion are bad, their opposites are good). The Sutta goes on to explain that the Noble ones, people who base their lives on this moral foundation, live in the four exhalted dwellings (loving- kindness, compassion, appreciative joy and equanimity). For these people, the issues of kamma and rebirth become a non-issue because they have the four solaces: - If there is an afterlife and kammic result, then I will undergo a pleasant rebirth - If there is none I still lives happily here and now - If evil results befall an evil-doer, then no evil will befall me - If evil results do not befall an evil-doer, then I am purified anyway In brief, in this Sutta the Buddha was explaining that even without faith and doctrine, one can see that one should live with a moral foundation. The Noble Ones (followers of the Buddha), those who base their lives on this moral foundation, do not have to be concerned about the issues of kamma and rebirth. You can read a more detailed (and more eloquent) treatment of this topic at: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/lecture_on_the_kalama_sutra.htm To answer your specific question regarding "seeing kamma" through meditation, the answer is, "Yes!". The bad news is that this perspective is considered one of the higher knowledges (abhinna) only available to those who have perfected their meditation. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 23703 From: Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural decisive support condition (was: Path condition (was: object condition)) Hi Rob, I didn't see how you answered the question: "L: what does that do to this argument: Rob: "Larry, in my previous message, I listed twelve path factors but this time I am only listing nine; this is because only a paramattha Dhamma can be a conditioning state. The last three path factors from my previous message are not cetasikas: - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they are not conditioning states of path condition." Also, speaking of concepts, is the "prompted" characteristic considered to be a natural decisive support condition? Larry 23704 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Hi Jon, Looking back at my earlier response to you to this same message, I'm afraid I responded inappropriately to something that was only on my mind and really had nothing much to do with your message at all for which I deeply regret and apologize for. Thank-you for your message. I found your quotes and remarks to be reasonable and interesting. I look forward to learning more as we continue on with the study of Vism. Best wishes, Jim > Jim and Nina > > Jim, many thanks for your contributions so far on this project. It > has been very useful having your input. > > There are a number of passages in Vism that are relevant to the > thread you two are discussing here. I hope you don't mind me butting > in with one such set of references. > > III, 5 > '(iv) How many kinds of concentration are there? > ... > (3) [Concentration is] likewise [of two kinds] as mundane and > supramundane,' ... > > III, 7 > '3. Mundane concentration is profitable unification of mind in the > three planes. Supramundane concentration is the unification > associated with the noble paths.' > > III, 27 > '(v) How should it be developed? > 'The method of developing the kind of concentration associated with > the noble paths mentioned (# 7) under that 'of two kinds as mundane > and supramundane', etc., is included in the method of developing > understanding (Ch. XXII); for in developing [path] understanding > that is developed too. So we shall say nothing separately [here] > about how that is to be developed. > 'But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has > already taken his stand on virtue ...' > > I've no doubt there are other passages we shall come across from time > to time. I'm fully aware that no single passage is conclusive on > this issue. It will be interesting to consider at a later stage > everything we come up with during this study. > > Jon 23705 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural decisive support condition (was: Path condition (was: object condition)) Hi Larry (Nina, RobK and others), If your question is, "Why are there only nine conditioning states for path condition (the three path factors that are not cetasikas are not included)?", then my answer is, "Sorry, I don't know!" Perhaps Nina, RobK or others may know. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > I didn't see how you answered the question: > > "L: what does that do to this argument: > > Rob: "Larry, in my previous message, I listed twelve path factors > but > this time I am only listing nine; this is because only a paramattha > Dhamma can be a conditioning state. The last three path factors from my > previous message are not cetasikas: > - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) > - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) > - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) > These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they are not > conditioning states of path condition." > > Also, speaking of concepts, is the "prompted" characteristic considered > to be a natural decisive support condition? > > Larry 23706 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jim There was nothing inappropriate in your reply, I can assure you, but thanks anyway. We are discussing views that are held to deeply and very dearly, and I know my posts can be provocative (this is not deliberate on my part ;-)). Actually, I've already written a reply to your post, but I didn't get around to sending it off before leaving for work (actually for exercise class at 6:30) this morning. I'll send it off when I get home this evening. It's good to keep talking, I think. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Looking back at my earlier response to you to this same message, > I'm > afraid I responded inappropriately to something that was only on my > mind and really had nothing much to do with your message at all for > which I deeply regret and apologize for. > > Thank-you for your message. I found your quotes and remarks to be > reasonable and interesting. I look forward to learning more as we > continue on with the study of Vism. > > Best wishes, > Jim 23707 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Victor, I'm sure you don't mean any personal insult in this post; you are simply saying that I have been misled by a preoccupation with 'concepts and realities.' To cast doubt on the Buddha's teaching would be a terrible thing but you think this is exactly what I have done (been misled into doing): ------------- > seeing the Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta as "conventional" led you to the conclusion that his advice is unsatisfactory > > > seeing the Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta as conventional and unsatisfactory. ------------- No offence taken, although, in the following, you imply that I claim to have profound understanding; -------------- > you came up with an interpretation of the four noble truths in connection with your preconception about the discourse. To you, this interpretation is profound and entirely satisfactory. > -------------- I am slowly reaching the very early stages of mundane, intellectual understanding. Other dsg members know vastly more than I do but none of them claims profound understanding. To the contrary, they say they are in kindergarten. --------------- > Now, when you say When there is the concept of a course of action (unpleasant or pleasant, profitable or unprofitable), there is, in truth, dukkha. When there is the concept of living being (foolish or wise), there is, in truth, dukkha. The Noble Ones -- the wisest of beings -- directly know that only dhammas are real and that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. do you mean that: "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." ? When you say When there is desire to follow one of the four courses of action or when there is desire for existence, then there is the cause of dukkha. do you mean the craving that makes for further becoming - - accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming." ? > > ----------------------- We would both answer yes to those questions. Where we differ is that you think a conventional understanding of the suttas will lead us it out of samsara; it won't. Thanks for your warnings about concepts and realities but I have equally strong opinions and would like to warn you in turn; Any purported version of the Buddha's teaching that does not distinguish concept (illusion, pannatti) from reality (paramattha dhamma), is bound to be misleading. It misleads us and, if we tell others that that is what the Buddha taught, it misleads them also. No offence intended :-) Kind regards, Ken > > The Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta in and of itself is conducive > and in connection to the cessation of dukkha. It is not necessary > to consider the Buddha's teaching as "conventional" or "concept" or > even "ultimate" for that matter. Those preconceptions may be > misleading in understanding the Dhamma. > > Your comments are appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor 23708 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah --- Dear Sarah, Certainly don't mind you adding comments. In fact, it made me smile when you wrote: [SNIP] > > ..... > S: So what about the gods in the rupa and arupa planes -- surely they > don't suffer from these problems, I thought as I was reading this..the > passage continues: > ..... > "And he should see the gods of the fine-material and immaterial spheres, > after so long a life-span, in the end succomb to the law of impermanence, > plunging from their heights back down into the round of birth, ageing, and > death, like birds swooping swiftly down from the heights of the sky or > like arrows shot by a strong arm descending in the distance. And having > seen all this, he should arouse a sense of spiritual urgency, and suffuse > all beings universally with loving-kindness and compassion." > ***** I smiled bec. I imagined you sitting there, reading and thinking 'surely its got to be a bit better for these beings', but no, its almost as bad!!!! I appreciate your comments, Sarah. It's difficult to discuss A.D.D. 'A Dhamma Depression', not Attention Deficit Disorder, with friends who aren't interested in the Dhamma; they think one should just go out a have a jolly good time. Maybe, just maybe at this stage, I'll see you in Thailand in Oct. I am beginning to slowly understand A. Sujin's words of wisdom about being courageous and cheerful. May we all have patience, courage and cheerfulness, Azita 23709 From: vajramantra Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: Karma and reincarnation Dear Rob, First of all, thank you for answering my question. I have been practising Buddhism for at least six years, but it seems that I jumped into it too fast, having missed to clarify some basic points. You know, before meeting Buddhism I spent some years in a Hindu organization, where the main emphasis was put on faith, obedience to the guru, accepting everything what he says, accepting the scriptures without questioning, etc. After some time I got really disappointed, and I left. I started to search for something else, something different. I liked Buddhism a lot because of what I quoted in my first post, the famous "do not accept anything on the basis of respect, etc.". Having read your letter I am a little confused, so to speak. Could you please tell me more about how faith and devotion manifests in Buddhism? And if Buddhism also includes faith and devotion, then what is the difference between theistic processes and Buddhism? As far as I know, the historical Buddha was somewhat disappointed with the different religious systems, that is why he rejected them in a sense. In your last line you say that on a higher platform of contemplation one can experience karma and reincarnation. So until I reach that state, what am I supposed to do when these doubts start to haunt me? How can I assure myself that even though I cannot see it, still, these things exist? Thank you for your time, Peter 23710 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jim Thanks for these comments. I agree with much of what you say here. In particular, I agree that no-one can say when or in what manner enlightenment will come (i.e., whether as a sukkhavipassaka or as a dry-insight worker). In fact, I would go even further: I do not read the texts as suggesting that one should elect to follow one way or the other -- I regard these groupings as ex post facto classifications. You see, I believe the teachings encourage us to take every opportunity to develop kusala of all kinds, and that of course means samatha as well as vipassana; it really depends on present circumstances and conditions and our accumulated tendencies which particular form of kusala if any will occur at a particular time. How things develop in the long run is going to be determined very much by what happens during all those kalpas that we have yet to go through ;-)). I also agree that each person's inclinations and aspirations are a personal matter and not any one else's business. That said, however, the question of whether, according to the doctrine as taught by the Buddha, the development of mundane concentration/samatha (tranquility) is a necessary prerequisite for the development of insight is one that, as I see it, needs to be considered by everyone regardless of personal inclinations or aspirations, since it goes to the very heart of the development of the path. There is much material in the texts that has a bearing on this question, and I think it is good to critically examine that material. As you know, my own view is that the teachings do not make that particular connection between mundane concentration and insight; but this in no way lessens my regard for mundane concentration as a form of kusala highly extolled by the Buddha and as such very worthy of being developed. The immediate significance in practical terms of this question seems to lie in whether or not one regards the lack of developed mundane concentration as an obstacle to the development of insight at the present moment, because of the perceived nexus between the two. Thanks for the opportunity to explain a bit further. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, > > There's one main point I'd like to make about this ongoing > controversy > concerning the role of jhaana. I know that you and Nina and other > followers of K. Sujin often downplay the importance of developing > jhaana, in other words, one doesn't need it if one follows the way > of > the sukkhavipassaka or dry-insight worker. I have no problem with > anyone following that way. The problem is how does one know if that > is the right way to take up given the particular individual's > situation > and should a dry-insight worker decree that all should do likewise? > After all there are a number of other equally possible approaches, > in > addition. For myself and at this stage of the game, I simply cannot > predetermine exactly how enlightenment will come about for me and > for > all I know it could be as an insight-worker. I like to keep all my > options open and to follow the method in full as laid out in the > Visuddhimagga sounds very acceptable even if it's impossible for me > to > come anywhere near the jhaanas in this lifetime. But that doesn't > rule > out the possibility that the work I do in this lifetime may help in > achieving jhaanic states in some future life. Maybe I'm in for the > long haul, at least a 100,000 kalpas. > > Jim 23711 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:46am Subject: Vism. EngPali XIV, 1 Jim, All Thanks very much for making the Pali available. I am setting out the relevant part alongside Larry's first instalment of the English text. This is partly for the purposes of the present discussion, and partly for the sake of future retrieval (hence the attempt at a 'unique' subject heading). ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Ch. XIV, The Aggregates A. Understanding 1. Now concentration was described under the heading of "consciousness" in the stanza: 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding' And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits described [in Chs. XII and XIII]. But "understanding" comes next. And that has still to be developed. Now that is not easy, firstly even to know about, let alone to develop, when it is taught very briefly. In order, therefore, to deal with the detailed method of its development there is the following set of questions: (i) What is understanding? (ii) In what sense is it understanding? (iii) What are its characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause? (iv) How many kinds of understanding are there? (v) How is it developed? (vi) What are the benefits of developing understanding? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 14. khandhaniddeso pa~n~naakathaa 1. idaani yasmaa eva.m abhi~n~naavasena adhigataanisa.msaaya thirataraaya samaadhibhaavanaaya samannaagatena bhikkhunaa siile pati.t.thaaya naro sapa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavayanti ettha cittasiisena niddi.t.tho samaadhi sabbaakaarena bhaavito hoti, tadanantaraa pana pa~n~naa bhaavetabbaa, saa ca atisa"nkhepadesitattaa vi~n~naatumpi taava na sukaraa, pageva bhaavetu.m; tasmaa tassaa vitthaara.m bhaavanaanaya~nca dassetu.m ida.m pa~nhaakamma.m hoti. kaa pa~n~naa, kena.t.thena pa~n~naa, kaanassaa lakkha.narasapaccupa.t.thaana-pada.t.thaanaani, katividhaa pa~n~naa, katha.m bhaavetabbaa, pa~n~naabhaavanaaya ko aanisa.msoti. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --- Jim Anderson wrote: > If any of you are interested in having the Pali text of Vism. > XIV.1-32 > in a plain text format (15K), you can download zvis14a.txt from the > DSG files folder (it's right at the bottom). It is copied from the > Burmese CSCD disk and converted to the Velthuis scheme (no special > font required). To make it more useful I have changed the section > numbers to match those in ~Naa.namoli's translation. It's better to > read it in a word processor as the lines probably won't wrap on > your browser. Just save to disk after downloading. > > Jim 23712 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:59am Subject: Re: Karma and reincarnation (long answer) Hi Peter V, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > First of all, thank you for answering my question. I have been > practising Buddhism for at least six years, but it seems that I > jumped into it too fast, having missed to clarify some basic points. > You know, before meeting Buddhism I spent some years in a Hindu > organization, where the main emphasis was put on faith, obedience to > the guru, accepting everything what he says, accepting the scriptures > without questioning, etc. After some time I got really disappointed, > and I left. I started to search for something else, something > different. I liked Buddhism a lot because of what I quoted in my > first post, the famous "do not accept anything on the basis of > respect, etc.". Having read your letter I am a little confused, so to > speak. Could you please tell me more about how faith and devotion > manifests in Buddhism? And if Buddhism also includes faith > and devotion, then what is the difference between theistic processes > and Buddhism? As far as I know, the historical Buddha was somewhat > disappointed with the different religious systems, that is why he > rejected them in a sense. > > In your last line you say that on a higher platform of contemplation > one can experience karma and reincarnation. So until I reach that > state, what am I supposed to do when these doubts start to haunt me? > How can I assure myself that even though I cannot see it, still, > these things exist? The Pali word for faith is saddha. The term "faith" does not capture the complete meaning of saddha. Other translations of saddha include "confidence", "conviction" and "trust". The literal meaning of saddha is "to place your heart upon." When we give our hearts over to a spiritual practice, it is a sign of faith or confidence in that practice. All wholesome states of mind have saddha as their leader. Only when one has confidence in the value of generosity, discipline or mental development will one apply oneself. Saddha is an ultimate reality with its own characteristic, it is not specifically Buddhist. One can have trust in generosity, loving-kindness and good deeds without being Buddhist. Saddha is one of the "controlling faculties" that exercise leadership over the accompanied mental states. Other controlling faculties include wisdom, energy, concentration and mindfulness. There must be a balance of the controlling faculties: - Too much saddha and too little wisdom leads to blind faith - Too little saddha and too much wisdom leads to cunning - Too much saddha and too little energy leads to no exertion - Too little saddha and too much energy leads to no resolve - Too much saddha and too little concentration makes one easily distracted - Too little saddha and too much concentration inhibits absorption (jhana) - Too much saddha and too little mindfulness does not provide a foundation - Too little saddha and too much mindfulness does not allow comprehension As with many of the people on this list, I was raised as a Christian and went to church most Sundays. When I was 12 or 13, I took "Confirmation Classes" to learn more about Christianity. I remember vividly the first class. The minister explained the meaning of "The Lord's Prayer". He started with "Our Father" and explained that this meant that all people had a common father (God); we then discussed the relationship between a father and his children. The minister then continued with, "who art in heaven"; we then spent time discussing what was meant by heaven. This had a huge impact on me. I had been reciting the Lord's Prayer without any understanding for years (at that time, it was still recited in school each morning). I thought to myself, "If there is a God up there observing me, then I am not fooling Him with my blind recitals." I decided from that point on not to recite anything blindly. I still attended church, but instead of reciting the prayers and singing the hymns, I thought about what was being said. It was this thinking for myself that eventually led me to Buddhism (to be continued...). The Buddhist object of faith is the Triple Gem; Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha (Ti-Sarana). The Theravada Buddhist ceremonies that I have attended usually start with the taking of refuge in the Triple Gem. True going for refuge is much more than reciting a formula. The going for refuge is an occasion of consciousness; It is an act of consciousness devoid of defilements, motivated by confidence in and reverence for the Triple Gem, taking the Triple Gem as the supreme resort. There are three reasons for taking refuge: 1. To provide protection from negative reactions to current problems. Life is dukkha; we cannot alter the nature of the world, so we must change ourselves by putting away attachment and aversion. Equanimity is the highest safety and security. 2. To avoid falling into the evil destinations in future lives. The triple Gem helps us to select right from wrong when the choice is not obvious and develops discipline to avoid being controlled by impulses. 3. To provide deliverance from Samsara. Craving and existence sustain each other in succession. Craving brings forth a new existence; the new existence gives the ground for craving to resume its search for gratification. To eradicate craving, the ignorance which supports it has to be dislodged. The antidote to ignorance is wisdom, "seeing things as they really are". This is not mere conceptual knowledge, but an internal experience. To avoid blind recitals, it is important to understand what it meant by the three objects of refuge: 1. Buddha - both the person and Buddhahood. Buddhahood is abandonment of defilements and acquisition of virtues. Defilements (kilesa) are lobha (greed), dosa (anger) and moha (delusion). Abandonment means that there are none remaining, no residual impression and they cannot arise again. The principle virtues are wisdom and compassion. 2. Dhamma - The Tipitaka is an indirect refuge (the map), the practice is a direct refuge (the path) and Nibbana is the ultimate refuge (the goal). 3. Sangha - Not the monastic Sangha, the ariyan Sangha (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, Arahant). There are three dimensions of going for refuge: 1. Intelligence - Though inspired by reverence, taking refuge must be guided by understanding which protects it from the dangers of blind emotion. Initially, we must understand the pervasive unsatisfactoriness of existence which makes reliance on a refuge necessary. The mind also has to grasp the reliability of the refuge- objects. A growth of understanding leads to a deeper commitment to the refuges; deepening commitment leads to growth of understanding. When the path (magga) arises, the refuge becomes irreversible, for it has been verified by direct experience (in other words, once one is a Sotapanna, the direction is irreversible). The intelligence that leads one to go for refuge, understanding of the danger of samsaric existence, is the seed for the faculty of wisdom which eventually issues in direct penetration of the four noble truths. 2. Volition - Previously, the will might have been scattered between many concerns. When the taking of refuge dominates, the will becomes focused on the new commitment. Taking refuge causes a deep-seated reversal in the movement of the will. Volition is the seed for the will to renunciation, the driving force that impels a man to renounce his craving, and egoistic clinging in order to go forth in search of liberation. It functions as well as the seed for the practice of right effort, the sixth factor of the noble eightfold path, by which we strive to abandon unwholesome impure mental states and to cultivate the wholesome and pure states. 3. Emotion - The emotions involved are principally three: confidence, reverence and love. Devotion and reverence for the Triple Gem become the seed for the germination of "unwavering confidence", the assurance of a noble disciple whose confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha can never be shaken by any outside force. Here is an analogy to explain the different types of "faith" in Buddhism based on a passage from Milindapada. A man is on one side of a wide creek and wants to get to the other side. He psyches himself up by telling himself, "I can jump to the other side. I know that I can do it. I believe that I can do it!" The man has blind faith. While the man is standing there, another person arrives at the same spot. The other person runs and jumps over the creek. Having witnessed this, the man says to himself, "I have seen it done. I know that it was done. I believe that I can do it." Now the man has bright faith (no longer blind faith). Once the man has jumped over the creek, he thinks, "I know it can be done, because I have already done it." Now the man has mature faith. As mentioned above, once one has direct experience of Nibbana, the path is irreversible. Buddhism does not encourage blind faith. In the Bhumija Sutta (Mn 126), the Buddha made it clear that results come from proper practice, not from strong desire (or from faith). In Buddhism, one is encouraged to closely examine the doctrine. There is a natural progression from study (pariyatti) to practice (patipatti) to realization (pativedha). Study is a foundation for practice and proper practice leads to realization. This principle helps guide what is truly important. For example, the texts say that there are 31 planes of existence. Whether I believe this to be true is not a big issue because this does not impact my practice. If in reality, there are 10 planes or 100 planes, it makes no difference as to how I should conduct myself. Peter, you have doubts regarding kamma and reincarnation. Let me continue the story of how I came to Buddhism that I started above. As I started listening to everything that was being said in Church, I found that I did not feel comfortable with some of it. I decided to stop attending Church and I read a number of western philosophers. Not finding any answers there, I decided to develop my own personal outlook on life. I spent many years thinking seriously about this. I developed a very elaborate set of beliefs. One day, I was out camping with my girlfriend and her family. Her father was a minister and around the campfire, he asked me about my religious beliefs. He was an open-minded man, so I decided to tell him what I had been developing on my own for so many years and not shared with anybody. He listened for a couple of hours, asking some clarifying questions and then said, "In order to become a minister, one has to study comparative religions. Though you have used different terminology, what you have described to be is essentially Buddhism." I said, "I'm sorry, I have never read anything about Buddhism. I have a hard time believing that I could have independently come up with one of the world's major religions." This incident made me curious and I picked up a book on Buddhism. I felt completely at home. Later, it was explained to me that in a previous life, I must have studied Buddhism and that is why I had such a strong kammic affinity to the Dhamma in this life. Why do you feel a special attraction for some people? It is because you have known them in a past life. How is a child a musical prodigy? It is because they were musicians in a previous life. There are so many stories of people remembering past lives. Peter, though I do not have the ability to "jump out of the system" and view my past lives, there is strong circumstantial evidence pointing to reincarnation. However, as the Buddha points out in the Kalama Sutta, even without a belief in kamma and reincarnation, there are solid reasons to avoid greed, anger and delusion and strong reasons to cultivate their opposites. If you believe this, then you have saddha; the kind of "faith" that is the foundation of a profitable life. Peter, if the existence (or non-existence) of kamma and rebirth is not going to impact your behaviour, why worry about it? This is the point of the "four solaces" section of the Kalama Sutta. Over time, with more experience and more contemplation, you may come to accept more and more of the Dhamma; but if this does not change your behaviour, what is the point? In brief, I wouldn't be too concerned if you have a hard time accepting kamma or reincarnation, as long as you have a strong moral foundation. This notwithstanding, there is a danger if one is attached to a view that rejects the idea of kamma; this type of wrong view leads to unwholesome behaviour (and according to the texts, can lead to a bad rebirth). I hope that this helps. I look forward to your feedback. Metta, Rob M :-) 23713 From: Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:10am Subject: wide open conditions Vism. XI, 121: ..."the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]." Hi Nina, After considering your objections I agree "wide open conditions" refers to disciplined conditions (restraints of all kinds), not dry insight. Do you know of any source, ancient or modern, that extensively discusses dry insight, especially the role of concentration therein? Larry 23714 From: Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Larry: 5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana)." Jon: For 'noble ones' (see XII, 124) who aspire to nirodha-samapatti, it may serve as the basis for that attainment. I believe the reference to 'noble ones' here is a reference to anagami's and arahants (i.e., not exactly the same class as 'Trainers'). Hi Jon, A note of clarification. In B. Nyanmoli's glossary "noble one" = ariyan (trainers + arahants). So I read this "benefit" to mean developed concentration is a means to abide in nirodha samapatti for ariyans. Here's the passage I used: Vism. XI, 124: But when Noble Ones who have already produced the eight attainments develop concentration thinking 'We shall enter upon the attainment of cessation, and by being without consciousness for seven days we shall abide in bliss here and now by reaching the cessation that is nibbana', then the development of absorption concentration provides for them the benefit of cessation. Larry 23715 From: peterdac4298 Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi Sarah Thanks for your words of support, most appreciated indeed. I am gradually getting acclimatized and settling in. I am managing to access dsg more frequently now that I'm more organized. The posts are most inspiring, just the thing I need right now. My reading is more focused on Vinaya during this time, but hope to include more Dhammic material in the not too distant future. Have just read about Bob Hope, an inspiration for Buddhists as much as everyone else. Generosity seems to breed its own kind of talent. Cheers Peter -- Peter Da Costa peterdac@h... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi PeterD, > > I was also very glad to hear your news and I hope your plans work out as > you wish, Peter. Please let us know - you have many friends here. > > Also, please don't worry if your emails sound cryptic or if there are > spelling mistakes - we're just glad to hear from you;-) > > If you have any problem with your yahoo account or if there's anything we > can do to help from our end, please let us know on or off-list. > > If you have any other difficulties we can assist with too, please let Jon > or myself know too. > > With metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > --- peterdac4298 wrote: > Hi Jon et al > > > > Thanks for the offer. Right now I'm in Udon, holed up for a couple > > of > > weeks, so have a chance to access DSG from a local Internet Cafe. > > With more time to hand, can be a little more coherent. I do > > apreciate > > your offers for assistance, very heartening to know. 23716 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:57am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Ken, Thank you for your comments. The Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta in and of itself is conducive and in connection to the cessation of dukkha. However, the view that the Buddha's teaching in Thana Sutta is conventional led you to conclude that it is unsatisfactory. The Buddha's teaching is to be understood as it is. The attributes "conventional", "conceptual", or even "ultimate" is irrelevant. The view "This teaching is conventional (or conceptual, or ultimate)" is unnecessary. Regarding the noble truth of dukkha, I believe that both of us agree that it means as it was stated by the Buddha: "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging- aggregates are dukkha." And regarding the noble truth of the cause of dukkha, I believe that both of us agree that it means as it was proclaimed by the Buddha: the craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. Your comments are welcome. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] > > Kind regards, > Ken 23717 From: vajramantra Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:59am Subject: Advice to Laypeople Hello all, Could you please recommend some work specifically dealing with advices to laypeople with regards to view, meditation and behavior? Thank you, Peter 23718 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1,access concentration Hi Larry, op 27-07-2003 23:06 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I have found that the term "access" is used in two ways in the > Visuddhimagga. First, in the usual way as access to absorption and > secondly as a technical term synonymous with "conformity consciousness" > (see below). N: correct. It arises shortly before there is another plane of citta. Sortly before a change of lineage. There are four planes of citta: of the sense-sphere (kamavacara), of rupa-jhana, of arupajhana and of lokuttara. L:I would propose that it be used in a third way as access to > insight. N: This is not possible, no change of lineage, there is not another plane of citta that follows. L: As such it is still secluded from the hindrances in the moment > of its manifestation as it would have to be accompanied by sati and the > other universal beautiful cetasikas in order for it to be a proximate > cause for panna (understanding). That being the case, there would be at > last a tiny fraction of a moment of piti accompanying it. [this being > our original bone of contention] N: When you use the word insight, do you mean a stage of insight, such as discerning the difference between nama and rupa, the first stage, or the following stages? Or enlightenment? There may be kusala citta with panna, and with somanassa and piti or kusala citta with upekkha and no piti. I have a feeling we better speak about piti in daily life first. We were reminded by Icaro: the classification of The Cetasikas: 1. that which arises together with consciousness 2. that which perishes together with consciousness 3. that which has an identical object with consciousness 4. that which has a common basis with consciousness. We should not take this as theory, it is actuality right now. In the case of cittas of the sensesphere, piti arises together with pleasant feeling, it can arise with cittas of all four jatis: kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya. Don't you agree that there are more often akusala cittas then kusala cittas? Thus, when there are pleasant feeling and piti, rapture, most of the time these arise together with lobha, attachment. Citta rooted in lobha likes all sense objects, it likes praise and honour, it likes encouragement (what a lot of akusala is following after I appreciated someone's encouragement, what a lot of conceit!). It can be accompanied by conceit or by wrong view. All accompanying cetasikas share the same object as citta, and they arise at the same physical base. We can analyse whether there was lobha or not, but cittas arise and fall away so fast, they are already gone when we think about them. Theoretical understanding can never be as precise as direct understanding arising with satipatthana. That is the reason why it is very difficult to know what is exactly pleasant feeling and what piti, they are together, but still different cetasikas. Diffiuclt to know when piti arises with lobha and when with kusala citta. You may rejoice in someone else's kusala with piti, then there is anumodana dana. Piti refreshes the kusala citta. Shortly afterwards the kusala is spoiled, isn't it? What is your experience as to this? However, we should not regret that there is akusala, if we regret it, we cling to "my beautiful kusala". We have a good opportumity to know what naturally arises within us, thanks to the Buddha's teaching which is so precise. We like the pleasant feeling and the piti, or maybe there is conceit. We are such a mixture and it can be very confusing. There are already different cittas and remember: . Before the first stage of insight arises, it is difficult to clearly distinguish between citta and cetasika, although sati can begin to be mindful of different characteristics. Only after the first stage it is known more clearly what the mind-door process is, what nama is. Now in the case of the development of jhana: piti and somanassa and other cetasikas are jhanafcators which have to be developed. They have to be clearly distinguished. In higher jhanas, at the fourth stage, piti is abandoned, but there is still pleasant feeling. How can jhanafactors be abandoned if the yogavacara cannot clearly distinguish between them? It is the same in the case of vitakka, applied thinking and vicara, sustained thinking. At the second stage of jhana vitakka is abandoned, but there is still vicara. As I said, also in samatha panna is necessary. It is most difficult to distinguish between the jhanafactors, but really necessary in order to be able to develop jhana. Piti is a factor of enlightenment, but it develops already when right understanding is developed, we do not have to think of piti. It arises because of its own conditions. You may have a reason to stress piti so much. You speak repeatedly about being secluded from the hindrances. If you are interested to develop satipatthana, remember that they are among the fourth application: mindfulness of dhammas. You do not have to suppress them, they can be object of insight. There is no need to be preoccupied how to be secluded from the hindrances. If you are interested to develop jhana, you do not have to force yourself either to suppress the hindrances, because when the right conditions have been cultivated, the jhanacitta subdues the hindrances. L: Incidentally, I have been trying to understand what concentration is in > the context of citta process. The best I could come up with is maybe it > is a mild "repeat" inducement causing the consciousness to (sometimes) > repeat rather than going on to something else. Could you clarify this? N: You probably think of the last part of the text you quote: .....This is called the 'preliminary work'. Next to that a second impulsion consciousness arises > making formations its object in the same way. This is called 'access'. > Next to that a third impulsion consciousness also arises making > formations its object in the same way. This is called 'conformity'. > These are their individual names. But it is admissable to call all three > impulsions 'repetition' or 'preliminary-work' or 'access' or > 'conformity' indiscriminately. You think of impulsions : in Pali: aasevana. There are usually seven javanacittas in a process, cittas which are kusala or akusala. They are of the same type and each one conditions the succeeding one by way of repetition-condition (aasevana paccaya). That is all. It does not have to do anything with concentration, a cetasika which accompanies each citta and shares the same object with the citta, arises and falls away with it. Concentration can be of different degrees. It can be kusala or akusala, depending on the citta it accompanies. It accompanies jhanacitta and also lokuttara citta. In the last case its strength is equal to the concentration of jhana, but its object is nibbana. We have to remember again that cetasika shares the same object with the citta it accompanies. Nina. P.S. Jim was so kind to send me Vis. and subco in Pali, and now I can study these for details. 23719 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:17am Subject: FW: Co, Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 3 B Co, Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 3 B bhagavaa simbalidaayato nikkhantasupa.n.naraajaa viya, The Exalted One was like a king of the Garuda birds, emerging from a forest grove of silk-cotton trees, raahulabhaddo ca supa.n.naraajassa pacchatonikkhantasupa.n.napotako viya. And Lucky Rahula was like the young of the king of the Garuda birds, departing after him. bhagavaa cittakuu.tapabbatato gaganatala.m pakkhandasuva.n.naha.msaraajaa viya, The Exalted One was like the golden king of the swans, leaping from Mount Cittakuu, gliding along the sky, raahulabhaddo ca ha.msaadhipati.m anupakkhandaha.msapotako viya. And Lucky Rahula was like a swan¹s young, following in its flight the ruler of the swans. bhagavaa mahaasara.m ajjhogaa.lhaa suva.n.namahaanaavaa viya, The Exalted One was like a golden vessel, that had entered a great lake, raahulabhaddo ca suva.n.nanaava.m pacchaa anubandhanaavaapotako viya. And Lucky Rahula was like a small boat following after the golden vessel. bhagavaa cakkaratanaanubhaavena gaganatale sampayaatacakkavattiraajaa viya, The Exalted One was like a wheelturning monarch, flying in the sky by the power of the Wheel Gem, raahulabhaddo ca raajaana.m anusampayaatapari.naayakaratana.m viya. And Lucky Rahula was like the chief of army of the universal monarch, proceeding after the universal monarch. bhagavaa vigatavalaahaka.m nabha.m pa.tipannataarakaraajaa viya, The Exalted One was like the ruler of the stars*, floating in a cloudless sky, raahulabhaddo ca taarakaadhipatino anumaggapa.tipannaa parisuddhaosadhitaarakaa viya. and Lucky Rahula was like the pure ³star of healing², following the ruler of the stars in its course. English: The Exalted One was like a king of the Garuda birds, emerging from a forest grove of silk-cotton trees, And Lucky Rahula was like the young of the king of the Garuda birds, departing after it. The Exalted One was like the golden king of the swans, leaping from Mount Cittakuu, gliding along the sky, And Lucky Rahula was like a swan¹s young, following in its flight the ruler of the swans. The Exalted One was like a golden vessel, that had entered a great lake, And Lucky Rahula was like a small boat following after the golden vessel. The Exalted One was like a wheelturning monarch, flying in the sky by the power of the Wheel Gem, And Lucky Rahula was like the chief of army of the universal monarch, proceeding after the universal monarch. The Exalted One was like the ruler of the stars *, floating in a cloudless sky, and Lucky Rahula was like the pure ³star of healing², following the ruler of the stars in its course. * The Subcommentary explains: the ruler of the stars is the moon. ******* 23720 From: Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:41am Subject: prompted conditions Hi Sarah, I haven't asked you a question lately so here's one. Which condtions condition the arising of a consciousness prompted by body, speech or mind? Is a prompted consciousness resultant (vipaka) because it is the result of a prompt? If a salesman persuades me that something is desirable is that desire resultant, javana, or both? Larry 23721 From: Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:47pm Subject: concentration Larry: Incidentally, I have been trying to understand what concentration is in the context of citta process. The best I could come up with is maybe it is a mild "repeat" inducement causing the consciousness to (sometimes) repeat rather than going on to something else. Could you clarify this? Nina: You probably think of the last part of the text you quote: .... Hi Nina, No. I am thinking of not wandering. Concentration is characterized as not wandering. What does this mean in citta process? How can citta process "not wander"? As for piti, you are misunderstanding me. All I am suggesting is that there is a _slight_ sense of joy when there is mindfulness. This joy is the joy of nonattachment. Maybe it isn't the same for everyone. Lastly, is concentration the proximate cause of dry insight? If so, is this concentration different in any way from ORDINARY concentration? Larry 23722 From: slartibarfast_147 Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:05pm Subject: Conciousness after death Greetings to all, i would appreciate any help from anyone who can shed light on this: According to dhamma, does conciousness depend on the physical body? Does conciousness continue after death of this body? If so how was it realized by Guatama/Buddha directly; perceived by himself directly ? with metta, nori 23723 From: slartibarfast_147 Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:31pm Subject: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Greetings to all, I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway here it is: - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner or refrain from eating chicken. with metta, nori 23724 From: vajramantra Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:03pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Dear Nori, As far as I know: It is true that all suffering one experiences is created by one's own negative actions. Nevertheless, bad deeds are committed out of ignorance. Beings do not know or do not accept the law of karma, so they engage in activities that bring about suffering. Thus, understanding that no one is "evil", we are simply ignorant and that is why we cause suffering to ourselves and to others, one can feel compassion towards everyone. I hope this helps. Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "slartibarfast_147" wrote: > Greetings to all, > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > here it is: > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > with metta, > nori 23725 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:19pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "slartibarfast_147" wrote: > Greetings to all, > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > here it is: > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > with metta, > nori Hi Nori Thanks for raising such an interesting and difficult question. I don't feel I have the technical understanding to give you a definitive answer, but there are many on this list who can and will do just that from various perspectives. I do have some thoughts which I will have to set out in plain language as that is all I can manage. Animals (like humans) suffer. In Dhamma terms, we say that we are all subject to dukkha. It is wholesome to feel compassion. It is not wholesome to wallow in sadness or indignation over the fact of suffering. When we ask if an entity "deserves" its fate (and is therefore not worthy of compassionate feeling), we are making a judgement. The intent of the Dhamma is not to make judgements, but to see things as they really are. The Dhamma says "2 + 2 = 4" and not "2 + 2 deserves to equal 4". I think the goal of the Dhamma is to reach a state of understanding wherein compassion arises directly - untouched by sadness or anger or any notion of "I am feeling compassionate" or "I am a compassionate person". You might find it useful to search the archives for past discussions about dietary habits. Thanks again. With metta Andrew 23726 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: Right Effort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > > > > Regarding the noble truth of dukkha, I believe that both of us agree > that it means as it was stated by the Buddha: > > "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, > lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the > unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not > getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging- > aggregates are > dukkha." > Hi Victor, I know I am about to repeat what has been said many times before but this is very important; In short, the five aggregates of clinging are dukkha. No matter whether it is birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, association with the unbeloved, separation from the loved, not getting what is wanted or, may I add, laughing, dancing, partying, -- it is the five aggregates that exist and they are dukkha. Kind regards, Ken 23727 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah Dear Azita, (Howard, Nina, Christine, Jim, RobM & All). --- gazita2002 wrote: > > I smiled bec. I imagined you sitting there, reading and > thinking 'surely its got to be a bit better for these beings', > but no, its almost as bad!!!! > > I appreciate your comments, Sarah. It's difficult to discuss > A.D.D. 'A Dhamma Depression', not Attention Deficit Disorder, with > friends who aren't interested in the Dhamma; they think one should > just go out a have a jolly good time. > Maybe, just maybe at this stage, I'll see you in Thailand in > Oct. > > I am beginning to slowly understand A. Sujin's words of wisdom > about being courageous and cheerful. > > May we all have patience, courage and cheerfulness, ..... I’m glad to ‘see’ you smiling again, Azita. Don’t be too hard on your other friends -- I don’t think qualities such as kindness and consideration are the prerogative of those interested in the Dhamma and they may be showing these qualities when encouraging you to have a ‘jolly good time’ istead of having an A.D.D. Even friends interested in the Dhamma may encourage each other to go out to see a movie, have a meal or a hike by way of a break;-) In the end -- and even in the beginning for that matter -- I don’t think we can look to others for ‘patience, courage and cheerfulness’. We are ‘islands’ and there are only ever the six sense worlds. As Nina was saying in her series with A.Sujin, ‘seeing here is no different from seeing there’. To take it further, seeing with wise companions is no different from seeing with unwise companions. I raised the recent comments and a question of Nina’s about living naturally with lobha when we were in Bangkok recently. K.Sujin was saying that ‘clinging brings fear’ when there is a fear that living naturally with attachment will lead to a lack of awareness. She said "it seems that it’s not OK (to live as normal), but who knows what will happen next? It’s not the question of ‘let it’ or ‘not let it’ (i.e the attachment) arise.....Understand lobha as lobha, not making it different. This or that (lobha) is already conditioned.... As understanding develops panna will condition the way of living without thinking ‘I have to live like this or I have to do this or that’ ”. She also asked what one ‘gets from trying to control’. She stressed that this is just thinking about cetana (volition) before or after the arising of a particular reality. "It’s impossible to control cetana which arises with every citta and is already arising and falling away (when there is the idea of preparing some other volition or some impossible exertion)". In your other post you asked about ‘evil companions’. I was hoping to hear from others like Howard or Christine as I thought they’d add some compassionate responses. You quoted the following verse in this note: ..... A:> I was reading here on dsg. but can't remember where,and will quote: 'I'm blind , my eyes are destroyed. I've stumbled on a wilderness track. Even if I must crawl, I'll go on, but not with an evil companion'. The more I read this, the starker it becomes and it kind of reminds me of Ray Bradbury's stories [sci-fi]; however, I'm wondering what constitutes an evil companion. Is this evil companion someone who is truly evil, like a murderer, or does this refer to anyone who does not follow the Dhamma? > I think it means the latter, but would like other's comment on this.< ..... The verse (quoted in Christine’s post on admirable friends) is from the Theragaathaa (The Elders’ Verses 95).(*Jim, pls see note at end of post). It was told by Cakkhupaala Thera who was an arahant. You can read a summary of the story told in the Theragaathaa Comy here: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/c/cakkhupaala_th.htm A different version of the story is also told in the Comy to the first verse in the Dhammapada which leads to the famous lines about mind being the forerunner of all evil states and leading to suffering. (Cakkhupala Thera became blind as a result of causing a woman to become blind in a previous life when he was a physician.) Cakkhupala’s young companion, recently ordained had just ‘sinned’ and Cakkhupala therefore refused to continue walking with him. I really don’t think of friends and companions we all have who don’t ‘follow the Dhamma’ as being ‘evil’. Someone recently posted a link to the Vyagghapajja Sutta (Conditions of Welfare) and another one which refer to the value of good friendship and also to the danger of ‘companionship and intimacy with evil-doers’ which clearly leads us to harm. I don’t see most our companions as being in this category. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-054.html I hope Howard can add more on this theme. Like him, I think that friends and family from any tradition or religion can give us inspiration and opportunities for kusala (wholesome)speech and action. As K.Sujin said “panna will condition the way of living”. By conditions and as a result of the fully developed panna, an arahant will no longer live a lay life at all. For us, we live the way there are the present conditions to live and I think it’s useless to speculate about how our lives would be if we were surrounded only by those with an appreciation of Dhamma, for example. (And of course, having a partner who has a fine appreciation of Dhamma is in any case no guarantee of an easy life, given all our inclinations and propensities for complicating issues and making life difficult;-)) ..... A:>I have been listening to tapes from the India trips and A. Sujin talks about being courageous: 'one has to be courageous and cheerful to understand any kind of reality which Sati is aware of--'< ...... This is always good to hear, Azita. It’ll be great if you’re able to join us soon - but still, all those same realities for sati to be aware of either way. Meantime, pls keep sharing your comments and ADDs with us all here. I look forward to further comments from anyone. With metta, Sarah p.s *Jim (& RobM)- We read that Cakkhupaalaa suffered from opthalmia. For the three months of the rainy season after his meeting with the Buddha, he didn’t lie down at all. the Dhp comy gives lots of details. In the Thag comy we also read he didn’t follow the doctor’s advice: “ ‘Better’, he thought, ‘is the allaying of the moral torments (kilesa) that that of eye-disease.’ Thus he neglected the latter and worked at his insight, so that eyes and torments perished at the same time. And he became a ‘dry-visioned’ arahant”. ..... I thought of you and others with eye problems. (RobM, I think this is a good example of (past) kamma-patha bringing results during the present life-time. We also see the effect of the other supporting conditions such as the refusal of the medicine and so on. Conditions are so complex, we never know what results will come at anytime.) In the Dhp comy there’s no reference to sukkhavipassaka. Jim, you may like to check the Thag comy Pali sometime. Also from Dhp comy we read that he encouraged himself: “Come now, brother Paalita, tell me this, Will you regard your eyes or the Religion of the Buddha? For in the round of existences without conceivable beginning, there is no counting the number of times you have been without eyes. But while unnumbered hundreds of Buddhas and thousands of Buddhas have passed, your experience does not cover the period of even a single Buddha. Now in this rainy season you resolved not to lie down for three months. Therefore let your eyes perish or decay. Keep only the Law of the Buddha, not your eyes.” Ooops - sounds like the opposite of all my other advice which is usually more like the short-sighted physician’s - i.e to lie down and take care of the eyes!! ======================= 23728 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] Sutta Nipata Comy Hi Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > The Sutta Nipata is a collection of 71 short suttas. Is > this what you are talking about? > > The comy is long. I could look up the comy on the specific > sutta. Giving you the entire comy would be tough. :-) ..... Well, Nina may be volunteering you to translate the entire text;-) I'll be happy to settle for occasional comments from the comy when a sutta is being discussed. The subject came up because Jim mentioned some interesting passages (about Buddhas -) and I'm always wishing I had the comy to refer to. I used to see Ven Saddhatissa when he was producing his translation of the Sn and I've often wished I'd encouraged him to add comy notes or a translation too at the time. This is an example of a post (to Erik) in which one of the suttas (Nanda’s Qus) was being discussed and some comy help would be useful if you have anything you can add. Never too late. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12393.html I’m sure I can dig up other threads too;-) or the passages Jim was referring to. Meanwhile, KenH and Victor are having an interesting discussion on the Thana sutta, AN Bk of 3s -- no comy notes anywhere in English. I’m sure everyone would be glad if there’s anything you can add. Sorry, I’ve lost the exact reference. Any help appreciated anytime - I know you’re very busy. Metta, Sarah ======= 23729 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I haven't asked you a question lately .... I’ve been keeping quiet and hoping you wouldn’t notice... .... so here's one. Which condtions > condition the arising of a consciousness prompted by body, speech or > mind? Is a prompted consciousness resultant (vipaka) because it is the > result of a prompt? If a salesman persuades me that something is > desirable is that desire resultant, javana, or both? ..... I understand the last qu best, so let me start with that: Hearing (the salesman) is vipaka (result of kamma) citta. The (prompted) desire arises with the javana cittas and is not resultant, but the vipaka is one of the conditions, along with root condition and many others for it to arise. The desire is accumulated and if sufficiently strong will lead to the purchase of the object. There are always so many conditions at work in an example like this - object condition, predominance condition,proximity condition, decisive support condition,repetition condition, conascence condition and more. We can talk about the javana cittas with desire being prompted (sasankhaarikam) in this case, but I don’t see how we can refer to the vipaka cittas as being prompted unless you say kamma is prompting its result which would be a rather unusual use of ‘prompted’ from an abhidhamma point of view. I’ve been appreciating your qus to others very much. As you mentioned to RobM, some conditions (ie. object and decisive support condition) include concepts. With regard to the path factor conditions, these are all cetasikas. Right action, speech and livelihood refer to the 3 virati (abstention) cetasikas which arise momentarily when abstaining from unwholesome action. Wrong action, speech and livelihood on the other hand are not cetasikas but refer to unwholesome actions accompanied by many moments of unwholesome intention and other factors. This is why, as I understand, they are not path condition. Similarly only cetasikas (good and bad) can be jhana condition. I think you asked some other qus about object condition. Let me know if there’s anything you and RobM didn’t sort out (which doesn’t mean I will:-)) Hope you also find qus for anyone else caught napping.... Metta, Sarah p.s I think the Vism thread is a great one already:-) You have to admit it’s even more exciting than H.P. ====== 23730 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] RobM's 24hr deadline (was Re: Right Effort) Hi RobM, Sorry for the delay - I'm not sure I can contribute further on this kamma-patha thread. In brief, the qu is whether all javana process cetana bring results or only kamma-patha as clarified below: ...... --- robmoult wrote:> > This is significantly different from my understanding. Nyanatiloka > defines kamma-patha as follows: > kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds > of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. > I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): > - 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; > - 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; > - 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. > > Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of > defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, > the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder > forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not > constitute 'courses of action'. .... All agreed. ..... > > II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): > - 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual > intercourse; > - 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, > foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; > - 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. > > Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A. X, 28, 176; M. 9; they are > explained in detail in M. 114, and in Com. to M. 9 (R. Und., p. 14), > Atthasalini Tr. I, 126ff. > > > > My understanding of what Nyanatiloka means by "Milder forms of > mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not > constitute 'courses of action'" is that 'courses of action' are > strong enough to condition rebirth linking consciousness whereas > milder forms of mental defilement can only condition future vipaka > during a course of existence (current existence or future existence). .... I understand these ‘milder forms’ are not abhisankhara bringing results, which I discussed before in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m16003.html ..... > > Nyanatiloka gives a number of textual reference at the end of his > defintion. I suspect that one of these might shed some light on this > issue. Sarah, I am away from my books right now. Could you check one > or more of these references and let me know what they say? I can > check more on Sunday. > > Does the CMA have anything to say about this (I don't have my copy > with me)? ..... I haven’t read anything in these references to suggest ‘milder forms’ bring results. In some of the refs under kamma-patha I think we read not only about results at birth, but also about power, influence, disease and other results during life. I’d be glad if you have any comments on any of the points in my old post (above) or any suggestions on why you think there are the differentiations in the 3 rounds (vattas), condtions and dependent origination between kilesa and kamma if all kilesa brings results. I don’t pretend to know the answers -- I think it’s a very tricky area and I’m just interested to explore it with you in the texts. Metta, Sarah ====== 23731 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Sara, --- Sarah wrote: Sara: "This is why, as I > understand, they are not path condition. Similarly > only cetasikas (good > and bad) can be jhana condition." ------------------------------------------------------- That´s just the point I´ve asked to that good pal, The Self Assigned MICHAEL THE BUDDHA! Always in my pratice I´ve questioned myself about the fact that Jhana - that has a simple and objective definition, but a very hard way to perform - could be quite impossible at present days (to be a Sukkhavipassaka is much more adequate and easy to a dry worker). I thought that the wise MICHAEL THE BUDDHA could satisfy my doubts about it... but your words came at good time! Only Cetasikas can be Jhana condition. No consciousness exists apart from its concomitants. Both consciousness and its respective co-adjuncts arise and perish simultaneously. But there are some material qualitites that arise and perish simultaneously with the consciousness. To exclude them the third property of having a common object has being attributed. That which possesses these three characterictics must necessarily be endowed with the fourth - a common basis. And without a common basis, perhaps Jhana could be very hard to carry on... but it´s only a opinion of mine. I am still waiting the honourable words of the Great MICHAEL THE BUDDHA!!! ------------------------------------------------------- Sara: "Hope you also find qus for anyone else > caught napping...." Not at all, dear Sara! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23732 From: slartibarfast_147 Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:51pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Dear Peter, Not all are ignorant of the extreme suffering they inflict through bad/evil actions. Many are quite aware of the results, and do it quite intentionally, since they simply do not care. regards, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > Dear Nori, > > As far as I know: > > It is true that all suffering one experiences is created by one's own > negative actions. Nevertheless, bad deeds are committed out of > ignorance. Beings do not know or do not accept the law of karma, so > they engage in activities that bring about suffering. Thus, > understanding that no one is "evil", we are simply ignorant and that > is why we cause suffering to ourselves and to others, one can feel > compassion towards everyone. > > I hope this helps. > > Peter 23733 From: slartibarfast_147 Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 0:14am Subject: Re: Karma and reincarnation Hi peter, You don't really need any faith at all to practice Dhamma because all of its benefits (i.e. escape from suffering) is realizable in the here and now. You don't have to wait until the next life until you see its benefits, and so, for now you can just view the law of kamma as a novelty. It is not a required realization to convince yourself to practice dhamma. I used to dwell on this subject alot when I started reading and practicing Dhamma, but now I think about it less and less and only in a few cases. Let me explain why: First I asked myself "Why do I really want to know the truth about Kamma?; Why do I want verification for its existence?" ... and I suggest you ask yourself that question as well. Then I realized that it made no difference whether I knew or not since: 1) as I mentioned earlier, I didn't need to know it in order to convince myself whether or not to practice Dhamma since its results were verifiable by practice and observing its results, in the here and now; in this life. 2) Good actions which are done for the fruit of the actions are not really good actions. Likewise, bad actions which are decided not to be done for the sole reason of fearing its kammic results are still bad actions since it was initially their intention; in their hearts; in their minds. There is still one reason, though, I do want to know whether Kamma exists. It is this: I do not know what to think or feel when I see people in extreme suffering. People in third world countries starving or dying from disease, or war; people born with disabilities, genetic diseases which cause great suffering, etc. On one hand, if they suffer from, say, actions in past lives where they inflicted extreme suffering upon others while they were well aware of it, then i would not be so, or as, concerned; on the other hand, if people born into suffering and places of deprivation, did so, for no apparent reason then I would have much more compassion for them. I thought I'd just share my views with you. nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > Hello all, > > Is it possible to actually experience the law of karma and > reincarnation through the practice of meditation? I mean, Buddhism is > known as a dogma-free spiritual system, still, when we look around, > we often see that good people suffer while bad people rejoyce. I know > this is just the surface, and we always hear from teachers that karma > does work, even if we do not see it. But this is still a kind of > faith, and Buddha taught that we should not accept something just > because it comes from somebody we respect, but we should carefully > analyze and examine whether the teaching is correct or not. So how > can one examine whether karma and reincarnation are facts one can > experience and not only something we - as Buddhists - are supposed to > accept? I hope there is an answer that goes beyond "it must be true > because Buddha said so". > > > Peter 23734 From: vajramantra Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:25am Subject: Re: Karma and reincarnation Dear Nori, Thank you very much for sharing your valuable thoughts with me, with us. Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "slartibarfast_147" wrote: > Hi peter, > > You don't really need any faith at all to practice Dhamma because all > of its benefits (i.e. escape from suffering) is realizable in the > here and now. You don't have to wait until the next life until you > see its benefits, and so, for now you can just view the law of kamma > as a novelty. It is not a required realization to convince yourself > to practice dhamma. > > I used to dwell on this subject alot when I started reading and > practicing Dhamma, but now I think about it less and less and only in > a few cases. > > Let me explain why: > > First I asked myself "Why do I really want to know the truth about > Kamma?; Why do I want verification for its existence?" > ... and I suggest you ask yourself that question as well. > > Then I realized that it made no difference whether I knew or not > since: > > 1) as I mentioned earlier, I didn't need to know it in order to > convince myself whether or not to practice Dhamma since its results > were verifiable by practice and observing its results, in the here > and now; in this life. > > 2) Good actions which are done for the fruit of the actions are not > really good actions. Likewise, bad actions which are decided not to > be done for the sole reason of fearing its kammic results are still > bad actions since it was initially their intention; in their hearts; > in their minds. > > There is still one reason, though, I do want to know whether Kamma > exists. It is this: I do not know what to think or feel when I see > people in extreme suffering. People in third world countries starving > or dying from disease, or war; people born with disabilities, genetic > diseases which cause great suffering, etc. On one hand, if they > suffer from, say, actions in past lives where they inflicted extreme > suffering upon others while they were well aware of it, then i would > not be so, or as, concerned; on the other hand, if people born into > suffering and places of deprivation, did so, for no apparent reason > then I would have much more compassion for them. > > I thought I'd just share my views with you. > > > nori > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" > wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > Is it possible to actually experience the law of karma and > > reincarnation through the practice of meditation? I mean, Buddhism > is > > known as a dogma-free spiritual system, still, when we look around, > > we often see that good people suffer while bad people rejoyce. I > know > > this is just the surface, and we always hear from teachers that > karma > > does work, even if we do not see it. But this is still a kind of > > faith, and Buddha taught that we should not accept something just > > because it comes from somebody we respect, but we should carefully > > analyze and examine whether the teaching is correct or not. So how > > can one examine whether karma and reincarnation are facts one can > > experience and not only something we - as Buddhists - are supposed > to > > accept? I hope there is an answer that goes beyond "it must be true > > because Buddha said so". > > > > > > Peter 23735 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:02am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Victor (and Ken), Hope you don't mind my butting in: From: "yu_zhonghao" Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:57 am Subject: Re: Right Effort > The Buddha's teaching is to be understood as it is. The > attributes "conventional", "conceptual", or even "ultimate" is > irrelevant. The view "This teaching is conventional (or conceptual, > or ultimate)" is unnecessary. As I understand it, there are (conventional*) teachings whose meaning must be inferred and (ultimate*) teachings whose meaning is fully drawn out. I think that to say that all teaching must be accepted at face value is contrary to the Dhamma (no offense intended to anyone). "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." Anguttara Nikaya II.25 Neyyattha Sutta A Meaning to be Inferred Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-025.html I think the following is an example from the suttapitaka of abhidhamma and of conventional vs. ultimate truth*: "And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor of Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run & circle around right view..." Majjhima Nikaya 117 Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta The Great Forty http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html *From Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' Paramattha (-sacca, -vacana, -desanaa) 'truth (or term, exposition) that is true in the highest (or ultimate) sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' (vohaara-sacca), which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca; in Skr: samvrti-satya). The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance whith undeluded insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech (vohaara-vacana). 23736 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Howard and James My message was no doubt less clear than it could have/should have been. Sorry for any confusion caused. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > *did* > misunderstand! I'm sorry for the mistake, and I thank you for the > correction. > > With metta, > Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: ... > Hi Howard and Jon, > > Okay, that whole thread was a bust. I'm so turned around over that > thread I have no idea who was trying to make what point. That's > okay, now I have lost interest. Thanks for clearing that up for me > and my apologies to Jon. > > Metta, James 23737 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies (and Godel) Mike Thanks for this comment. I'm not sure that we can say that *all* thinking about the [conventional] world falls within the rubric of 'unconjecturable', but I can see that any thinking about its origin would, because of the 'first cause' conundrum. Here is how Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' puts it: <> Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > This is pretty much the way I see it too. 'The world' outside of > this context seems to me to fall into the context of the > 'unconjecturables': > > "Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an > unconjecturable > that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & > vexation to > anyone who conjectured about it." > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.77 > Acintita Sutta > Unconjecturable 23738 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Larry Thanks for bringing up this point. Yes, 'noble ones' may refer (usually refers?) to all levels of enlightened beings. However, in the particular context of nirodha-samapatti I think its application would be limited to the anagami and arahant, for the reason given in the extract below from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary. Jon <> http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Larry: 5. For trainers it is a means to cessation (nibbana)." ... > Hi Jon, > > A note of clarification. In B. Nyanmoli's glossary "noble one" = > ariyan > (trainers + arahants). So I read this "benefit" to mean developed > concentration is a means to abide in nirodha samapatti for ariyans. 23739 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Hi Nori and Peter, ----- Original Message ----- From: vajramantra To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:03 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? > Dear Nori, > > As far as I know: > > It is true that all suffering one experiences is created by one's own > negative actions. Nevertheless, bad deeds are committed out of > ignorance. Beings do not know or do not accept the law of karma, so > they engage in activities that bring about suffering. Thus, > understanding that no one is "evil", we are simply ignorant and that > is why we cause suffering to ourselves and to others, one can feel > compassion towards everyone. "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there..."(Vis. XVI) I think it's more useful to think of compassion, good, evil and so on as arising and subsiding according to conditions, rather than in terms of 'beings', which are concepts. Compassion arises with understanding of the nature of beings and of suffering--no one who 'should' feel compassion and no one for whom one should feel compassion, ultimately. Just my opinion! mike 23740 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah Hi, Sarah (and Azita, and all) - Sarah, at a couple places in the following you ask that I might add a bit. Actually, I don't really have a coherent response to make, but I will provide a few brief comments. In a message dated 7/29/03 4:53:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Azita, (Howard, Nina, Christine, Jim, RobM &All). > > --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > > I smiled bec. I imagined you sitting there, reading and > >thinking 'surely its got to be a bit better for these beings', > > but no, its almost as bad!!!! > > > >I appreciate your comments, Sarah. It's difficult to discuss > >A.D.D. 'A Dhamma Depression', not Attention Deficit Disorder, with > >friends who aren't interested in the Dhamma; they think one should > >just go out a have a jolly good time. > > Maybe, just maybe at this stage, I'll see you in Thailand in > >Oct. > > > > I am beginning to slowly understand A. Sujin's words of wisdom > >about being courageous and cheerful. > > > > May we all have patience, courage and cheerfulness, > ..... > > I’m glad to ‘see’ you smiling again, Azita. Don’t be too hard on your > other friends -- I don’t think qualities such as kindness and > consideration are the prerogative of those interested in the Dhamma and > they may be showing these qualities when encouraging you to have a ‘jolly > good time’ istead of having an A.D.D. Even friends interested in the > Dhamma may encourage each other to go out to see a movie, have a meal or a > hike by way of a break;-) > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you Sarah. Perhaps there is some deficiency in terms of literal content in what the friends are saying, but the sense of it, to walk lightly in the world, is helpful, I think, for Buddhists and non-Buddhists alike. It's not so much that "entertainments" are needed, but that an "unclenching" and a "lightness" are needed. -------------------------------------------------- > > In the end -- and even in the beginning for that matter -- I don’t think > we can look to others for ‘patience, courage and cheerfulness’. We are > ‘islands’ and there are only ever the six sense worlds. As Nina was saying > in her series with A.Sujin, ‘seeing here is no different from seeing > there’. To take it further, seeing with wise companions is no different > from seeing with unwise companions. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yes and no. It is easier to learn from wise companions than unwise companions. But I do think that based on a careful study of the Buddha's teachings, teachings mulled over again and again until there is a deep imbibing of them, the mind becomes conditioned to learn, and to apprehend with wisdom, under all circumstances and from all people. Eventually, to paraphrase what the Tibetans have said, it becomes possible to see all things as Dhamma, hear all sounds as mantra, and experience all people as Buddha. There is nowhere we can look that we will not see the truth of the Dhamma revealed. ---------------------------------------------------- > > I raised the recent comments and a question of Nina’s about living > naturally with lobha when we were in Bangkok recently. K.Sujin was > saying that ‘clinging brings fear’ when there is a fear that living > naturally with attachment will lead to a lack of awareness. She said "it > seems that it’s not OK (to live as normal), but who knows what will happen > next? It’s not the question of ‘let it’ or ‘not let it’ (i.e the > attachment) arise.....Understand lobha as lobha, not making it different. > This or that (lobha) is already conditioned.... As understanding develops > panna will condition the way of living without thinking ‘I have to live > like this or I have to do this or that’ â€?. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Very "Zen"! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- > > She also asked what one ‘gets from trying to control’. She stressed that > this is just thinking about cetana (volition) before or after the arising > of a particular reality. "It’s impossible to control cetana which arises > with every citta and is already arising and falling away (when there is > the idea of preparing some other volition or some impossible exertion)". > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: This is a true and interesting point. It is very important, however, to be as aware as possible of volition, and of what is willed, whenever possible, so that one can avoid unconscious papanca which embellishes akusala cetana and so that one can support by awareness the furtherance of kusala cetana. One is always a victim when awareness is missing. ------------------------------------------------------- > > In your other post you asked about ‘evil companions’. I was hoping to hear > from others like Howard or Christine as I thought they’d add some > compassionate responses. You quoted the following verse in this note: > ..... > A:> I was reading here on dsg. but can't remember where,and will > quote: > 'I'm blind , my eyes are destroyed. > I've stumbled on a wilderness track. > Even if I must crawl, I'll go on, > but not with an evil companion'. > > The more I read this, the starker it becomes and it kind of > reminds me of Ray Bradbury's stories [sci-fi]; > however, I'm wondering what constitutes an evil companion. > Is this evil companion someone who is truly evil, like a murderer, > or does this refer to anyone who does not follow the Dhamma? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: There are "good" and "evil" people to be found among all religionists, and among irreligionists as well. And if one looks carefully, there is goodness to be found even in those who seem to be clearly "evil". Given that one stays mindful and cautiously avoids being led astray, there is much to learn from all sources, I believe. In this regard, the development of the Brahma viharas is useful not only to bring joy and calm to oneself, and to enable one to act wholesomely and harmlessly in the world, but it also serves as protection for oneself. The Brahma viharas, it seems to me, create an envelope of security and peace about oneself, enabling one to learn from all sources while remaining unstained. [I don't mean to imply that the Brahma viharas are a substitute for the realization of nibbana, of course. Nothing is.] ---------------------------------------------------- > >I think it means the latter, but would like other's comment on this.< > ..... > > The verse (quoted in Christine’s post on admirable friends) is from the > Theragaathaa (The Elders’ Verses 95).(*Jim, pls see note at end of post). > > It was told by Cakkhupaala Thera who was an arahant. You can read a > summary of the story told in the Theragaathaa Comy here: > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/c/cakkhupaala_th.htm > > A different version of the story is also told in the Comy to the first > verse in the Dhammapada which leads to the famous lines about mind being > the forerunner of all evil states and leading to suffering. (Cakkhupala > Thera became blind as a result of causing a woman to become blind in a > previous life when he was a physician.) > > Cakkhupala’s young companion, recently ordained had just ‘sinned’ and > Cakkhupala therefore refused to continue walking with him. > > I really don’t think of friends and companions we all have who don’t > ‘follow the Dhamma’ as being ‘evil’. Someone recently posted a link to the > Vyagghapajja Sutta (Conditions of Welfare) and another one which refer to > the value of good friendship and also to the danger of ‘companionship and > intimacy with evil-doers’ which clearly leads us to harm. I don’t see most > our companions as being in this category. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-054.html > > I hope Howard can add more on this theme. Like him, I think that friends > and family from any tradition or religion can give us inspiration and > opportunities for kusala (wholesome)speech and action. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: We are certainly in agreement on this matter, Sarah. --------------------------------------------------- As K.Sujin said> > “panna will condition the way of livingâ€?. By conditions and as a result of > the fully developed panna, an arahant will no longer live a lay life at > all. For us, we live the way there are the present conditions to live and > I think it’s useless to speculate about how our lives would be if we were > surrounded only by those with an appreciation of Dhamma, for example. (And > of course, having a partner who has a fine appreciation of Dhamma is in > any case no guarantee of an easy life, given all our inclinations and > propensities for complicating issues and making life difficult;-)) > ..... > A:>I have been listening to tapes from the India trips and A. Sujin > talks about being courageous: > 'one has to be courageous and cheerful to understand any kind of > reality which Sati is aware of--'< > ...... > This is always good to hear, Azita. > > It’ll be great if you’re able to join us soon - but still, all those same > realities for sati to be aware of either way. Meantime, pls keep sharing > your comments and ADDs with us all here. > > I look forward to further comments from anyone. > > With metta, > > Sarah > > p.s *Jim (& RobM)- We read that Cakkhupaalaa suffered from opthalmia. For > the three months of the rainy season after his meeting with the Buddha, he > didn’t lie down at all. the Dhp comy gives lots of details. In the Thag > comy we also read he didn’t follow the doctor’s advice: “ ‘Better’, he > thought, ‘is the allaying of the moral torments (kilesa) that that of > eye-disease.’ Thus he neglected the latter and worked at his insight, so > that eyes and torments perished at the same time. And he became a > ‘dry-visioned’ arahantâ€?. > ..... > I thought of you and others with eye problems. (RobM, I think this is a > good example of (past) kamma-patha bringing results during the present > life-time. We also see the effect of the other supporting conditions such > as the refusal of the medicine and so on. Conditions are so complex, we > never know what results will come at anytime.) In the Dhp comy there’s no > reference to sukkhavipassaka. Jim, you may like to check the Thag comy > Pali sometime. > > Also from Dhp comy we read that he encouraged himself: > > “Come now, brother Paalita, tell me this, Will you regard your eyes or the > Religion of the Buddha? For in the round of existences without > conceivable beginning, there is no counting the number of times you have > been without eyes. But while unnumbered hundreds of Buddhas and thousands > of Buddhas have passed, your experience does not cover the period of even > a single Buddha. Now in this rainy season you resolved not to lie down for > three months. Therefore let your eyes perish or decay. Keep only the Law > of the Buddha, not your eyes.â€? > > Ooops - sounds like the opposite of all my other advice which is usually > more like the short-sighted physician’s - i.e to lie down and take care of > the eyes!! > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23741 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Ken, Thank you for your comments. The Buddha's teaching is about dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. It is not about what exists and what does not. The Buddha's teaching is not to be understood from the perspective regarding existence and non-existence. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: [snip] > > Hi Victor, > > I know I am about to repeat what has been said many times > before but this is very important; > > In short, the five aggregates of clinging are dukkha. > > No matter whether it is birth, aging, death, sorrow, > lamentation, pain, association with the unbeloved, > separation from the loved, not getting what is wanted or, > may I add, laughing, dancing, partying, -- it is the five > aggregates that exist and they are dukkha. > > Kind regards, > Ken 23742 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Hi Nori, I think there are a couple of answers that come from the Suttas on this question.....the first would come from the Duggata Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn15-011.html " At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." So from this we can see that suffering is universal, we have all reaped the consequences of unwholesome actions, thoughts and speech. I think this understanding naturally gives rise to compassion. Also the very practice of arousing compassion is wholesome and thus beneficial as an antidote to hatred or pride. Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "slartibarfast_147" To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:31 PM Subject: [dsg] If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? > Greetings to all, > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > here it is: > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > with metta, > nori 23743 From: dwlemen Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:06am Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? (math) Everyone, This has reminded me of a question I have had. I'll post it here and see if anyone has any thoughts. As I've heard, there is no beginning point according to Buddhist philosophy. Therefore, going back, we have been through an infinite amount of lives. However, mathmatically, if the number of lives is infinte, then the amount of bad (and good) Kamma must also be infinite. Therefore, aren't we then forced to be sort of "balanced" in terms of our Kamma? Hope that makes sense... :-) Peace, Dave --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I think there are a couple of answers that come from the Suttas on this > question.....the first would come from the Duggata Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn15-011.html > > " At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable > beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though > beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & > wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed > with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this > sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A > beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and > fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus > experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the > cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, > enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." > > So from this we can see that suffering is universal, we have all reaped > the consequences of unwholesome actions, thoughts and speech. I think this > understanding naturally gives rise to compassion. Also the very practice of > arousing compassion is wholesome and thus beneficial as an antidote to > hatred or pride. Ray > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "slartibarfast_147" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:31 PM > Subject: [dsg] If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? > > > > Greetings to all, > > > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > > here it is: > > > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > > > > with metta, > > nori 23744 From: vajramantra Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:29am Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? (math) IMO: If I check the actions committed by myself and others in the world, I guess we commit a lot more harmful acts than good deeds. Consequently, during our infinite lives we have accumulated much more bad karma than good. So I think that is why there is no karmic balance. Peter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > Everyone, > > This has reminded me of a question I have had. I'll post it here and > see if anyone has any thoughts. > > As I've heard, there is no beginning point according to Buddhist > philosophy. Therefore, going back, we have been through an infinite > amount of lives. However, mathmatically, if the number of lives is > infinte, then the amount of bad (and good) Kamma must also be > infinite. Therefore, aren't we then forced to be sort of "balanced" > in terms of our Kamma? > > Hope that makes sense... :-) > > Peace, > > > Dave > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" > wrote: > > Hi Nori, > > > > I think there are a couple of answers that come from the Suttas > on this > > question.....the first would come from the Duggata Sutta: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn15-011.html > > > > " At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable > > beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, > though > > beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are > transmigrating & > > wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, > overwhelmed > > with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced > just this > > sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' > > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. > A > > beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance > and > > fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have > you thus > > experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the > > cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated > things, > > enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." > > > > So from this we can see that suffering is universal, we have all > reaped > > the consequences of unwholesome actions, thoughts and speech. I > think this > > understanding naturally gives rise to compassion. Also the very > practice of > > arousing compassion is wholesome and thus beneficial as an antidote > to > > hatred or pride. Ray > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "slartibarfast_147" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:31 PM > > Subject: [dsg] If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? > > > > > > > Greetings to all, > > > > > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > > > here it is: > > > > > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > > > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower > life > > > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > > > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? > What is > > > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > > > > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know > what > > > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for > dinner > > > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > > > > > > > with metta, > > > nori 23745 From: dwlemen Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:02am Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? (math) But, mathmatically, my understanding is that, at infinity, greater- than and less-than break down. So, for example, if we were to have created 2 "units" of bad to every "unit" of good, at infinity, it balances out. I have created an infinite amount of good and 2x infinite amount of bad... but there is no such thing as 2xI so it just becomes I. So it balances. But, even is we assume the case where there can be 2xI, then I'd need to generate an infinite amount of good Kamma to to balance myself, otherwise, I will have to forever be under the effects of that infinite amount of bad Kamma. My assumption is that this is just an academic, "fun" exercise (in futility) and will ultimately fall into one of those leaves that were never explained, but, still... it is an interesting paradox to consider. Peace, Dave --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "vajramantra" wrote: > IMO: If I check the actions committed by myself and others in the > world, I guess we commit a lot more harmful acts than good deeds. > Consequently, during our infinite lives we have accumulated much more > bad karma than good. So I think that is why there is no karmic > balance. > > Peter > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" > wrote: > > Everyone, > > > > This has reminded me of a question I have had. I'll post it here > and > > see if anyone has any thoughts. > > > > As I've heard, there is no beginning point according to Buddhist > > philosophy. Therefore, going back, we have been through an > infinite > > amount of lives. However, mathmatically, if the number of lives is > > infinte, then the amount of bad (and good) Kamma must also be > > infinite. Therefore, aren't we then forced to be sort > of "balanced" > > in terms of our Kamma? > > > > Hope that makes sense... :-) > > > > Peace, > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" > > wrote: > > > Hi Nori, > > > > > > I think there are a couple of answers that come from the > Suttas > > on this > > > question.....the first would come from the Duggata Sutta: > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn15-011.html > > > > > > " At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an > inconstruable > > > beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, > > though > > > beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are > > transmigrating & > > > wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, > > overwhelmed > > > with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced > > just this > > > sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' > > > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes > transmigration. > > A > > > beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by > ignorance > > and > > > fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have > > you thus > > > experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling > the > > > cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated > > things, > > > enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." > > > > > > So from this we can see that suffering is universal, we have > all > > reaped > > > the consequences of unwholesome actions, thoughts and speech. I > > think this > > > understanding naturally gives rise to compassion. Also the very > > practice of > > > arousing compassion is wholesome and thus beneficial as an > antidote > > to > > > hatred or pride. Ray 23746 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] wrong path factors Dear Rob M, op 28-07-2003 01:15 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The last three path factors > from my >> previous message are not cetasikas: >> - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) >> - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) >> - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) >> These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they > are not >> conditioning states of path condition." N: Mny different akusala cittas accompanied by akusala cetasikas are involved with these three. Thus, they are not three distinct dhammas and as such they are not conditioning factors. Nina. 23747 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:18am Subject: FW: Cmy Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 4 B Cmy Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 4 B bhagavaapi mahaasammatapave.niya.m okkaakaraajava.mse jaato, raahulabhaddopi. Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were born into the royal dynasty of King Okkaka, descending from King Maha-Sammata. bhagavaapi sa"nkhe pakkhittakhiirasadiso suparisuddhajaatikhattiyakule jaato, raahulabhaddopi. Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were born into the warrior clan, a superior family, pure like milk put into a conchshell. bhagavaapi rajja.m pahaaya pabbajito, raahulabhaddopi. Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula gave up the kingdom and entered monkhood. bhagavatopi sariira.m dvatti.msamahaapurisalakkha.napa.tima.n.dita.m The Exalted One¹s body was adorned with the thirtytwo characteristics of a Great Man, devanagaresu samussitaratanatora.na.m viya sabbapaaliphullo paaricchattako viya and, being like a jeweled gateway elevated in the cities of divine beings, and like a blooming coral tree, ca atimanohara.na.m, raahulabhaddassaapi. both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were of striking beauty. iti dvepi abhiniihaarasampannaa, dvepi raajapabbajitaa, Thus, both of them were full of aspirations, both of them, being of royal birth, had gone forth. dvepi khattiyasukhumaalaa, dvepi suva.n.nava.n.naa, Both of them were delicate, being of royal family, both had a golden complexion. dvepi lakkha.nasampannaa ekamagga.m pa.tipannaa pa.tipaa.tiyaa gacchantaana.m Both of them, provided with distinguishing features, entered upon and walked along the same way. dvinna.m candama.n.dalaana.m dvinna.m suuriyama.n.dalaana.m dvinna.m sakkasuyaamasantusitasunimmitavasavattimahaabrahmaadiina.m siriyaa siri.m abhibhavamaanaa viya viroci.msu. Both of them were brilliant, and they were with their splendour as it were surpassing the glory of the crests of moon and sun, and of the divine Kings: Sakka, Suyama, Santusita, Nimitta Vasavatti, the Great Brahma and so on. English: Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were born into the royal dynasty of King Okkaka, descending from King Maha-Sammatta. Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were born into the warrior clan, a superior family, pure like milk put into a conchshell. Both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula gave up the kingdom and entered monkhood. The Exalted One¹s body was adorned with the thirtytwo characteristics of a Great Man, and, being like a jeweled gateway elevated in the cities of divine beings and like a blooming coral tree, both the Exalted One and Lucky Rahula were of striking beauty. Thus, both of them were full of aspirations, both of them, being of royal birth, had gone forth. Both of them were delicate, being of royal family, both had a golden complexion. Both of them, being provided with distinguishing features, entered upon and walked along the same way. Both of them were brilliant, and were with their splendour as it were surpassing the glory of the crests of moon and sun, and of the divine Kings: Sakka, Suyama, Santusita, Nimitta Vasavatti, the Great Brahma and so on. ***** Nina. 23748 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry, sorry I misunderstood you. op 28-07-2003 23:47 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Larry: Incidentally, I have been trying to understand what concentration > is in > the context of citta process. The best I could come up with is maybe it > is a mild "repeat" inducement causing the consciousness to (sometimes) > repeat rather than going on to something else. Could you clarify this? > > Nina: You probably think of the last part of the text you quote: .... L: >> No. I am thinking of not wandering. Concentration is characterized as > not wandering. What does this mean in citta process? How can citta > process "not wander"? N: Concentration is characterized as non distraction, is this what you mean? It is the condition that citta only experiences one object, and it accompanies each citta. In samatha it is non-distraction as to the meditation subject. It falls away with each citta, and then it accompanies the succeeding citta. L: As for piti, you are misunderstanding me. All I am suggesting is that > there is a _slight_ sense of joy when there is mindfulness. > This joy is the joy of nonattachment. Maybe it isn't the same for > everyone. N: You are right, it is not the same. For me: no doubt that 90% or more of the time it accompanies lobha. And I make it worse: I start to laugh about the whole show and then again there is piti with lobha, while laughing. But Larry, this is natural, don't you have this experience in your life, that there are many moments of lobha and piti? And that it is so easy to take the akusala piti for the kusala piti? Now all our correspondance about piti reminds me more of this cetasika. As for piti with mindfulness, I believe that the main thing we should ask ourselves: how much understanding is there? What do I understand? As I see it, understanding is more important then piti. I feel, if there is piti it is for me personally best not to pay much attention to it, it is gone immediately. If I pay attention to it, lobha again. L: Lastly, is concentration the proximate cause of dry insight? If so, is > this concentration different in any way from ORDINARY concentration? N:Concentration accompanies each citta and it is conditioned by the citta it accompanies. Therefore, there are many shades and varieties of it. It can be kusala, akusala, or neither kusala nor akusala (vipaka and kiriya). In the Vis we have to look at the context where it is said that concentration is the proximate cause of understanding. Those who have developed jhana can have jhana as the base or proximate cause of understanding. Jhanacitta is then an object of insight. When one develops insight without developing jhana there is also right concentration with the citta accompanied by right understanding, but this concentration is not a base for understanding such as is the case for those who develop jhana. It just performs its function of focussing on the dhamma that appears, and, as insight develops, focussing on the three characteristics. It performs its function together with all the other path-factors, such as right mindfulness, right effort, etc. Right understanding takes the lead. It is said in the teachings that when there is right awareness and right understanding of a nåma or rúpa there is at that moment higher síla (adhisila), higher concentration (adhicitta) and higher paññå (adhipanna). They lead to the eradication of all defilements, to the highest goal. It is natural that concentration and calm grow as panna develops. It is also said that there is purity (visuddhi) of sila, citta and panna. There is no idea of my sila, citta and panna. Without satipatthana there cannot be this kind of purity, visuddhi. +++++++++++++++++++++ Now your other mail: Larry: Vism. XI, 121: ..."the development of absorption concentration provides them with the benefit of insight by serving as the proximate cause for insight, and so too does access concentration as a method of arriving at wide open [conditions] in crowded [circumstances]." After considering your objections I agree "wide open conditions" refers to disciplined conditions (restraints of all kinds), not dry insight. Do you know of any source, ancient or modern, that extensively discusses dry insight, especially the role of concentration therein? N: The monk has to live like the arahat, away from sense pleasures, he lives in wide open conditions. The jhana practioner lives temporarily in wide open conditions, the hindrances are suppressed, not eradicated. The arahat (no matter he practised dry insight or jhana and insight) has eradicated the hindrances. He lives in wide open conditions, never to be disturbed by defilements. Concentration and dry insight: just as I said above: concentration is one of the path factors performing its function. Each cetasika performs its own function. We had many posts about dry insight (see U.P.) with quotes of texts. I am not so interested at modern articles, I am only interested at the Tipitaka and Commentary. Nina. 23749 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If there is Kamma? (math) Hi, Dave - In a message dated 7/29/2003 11:06:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, dwlemen@y... writes: > Everyone, > > This has reminded me of a question I have had. I'll post it here and > see if anyone has any thoughts. > > As I've heard, there is no beginning point according to Buddhist > philosophy. Therefore, going back, we have been through an infinite > amount of lives. However, mathmatically, if the number of lives is > infinte, then the amount of bad (and good) Kamma must also be > infinite. Therefore, aren't we then forced to be sort of > "balanced" > in terms of our Kamma? > > Hope that makes sense... :-) > > Peace, > > > Dave =========================== No, the kammic traces needn't be infinite. As time goes on, new traces accumulate and old traces are expunged (by fruition), allowing for the possibility of only a finite amount of kammic accumulations at any point in time. Sometimes the store of kammic traces will increase and sometimes decrease, depending on conditions. With metta, Howard 23750 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 0:02pm Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Mike (and Ken), Thank you for your comments and references. Understanding the Buddha's teaching as it is, is not about accepting the Buddha's teaching at face value. The Buddha's teaching is about dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. It is not about what exists, what does not exist, or what is real, what is concept, or what is conventional, what is ultimate. When one preoccupies oneself over what exists/does not exist, what is real/concept, what is conventional/ultimate, and takes those preoccupations as the Buddha's teaching, the Buddha's teaching is not understood as it is. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Victor (and Ken), > > Hope you don't mind my butting in: [snip] 23751 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 0:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Hi Mike and all, Pardon me for butting in as well. I would say that the view "The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there" is one pernicious view presented in Visudhimagga. I would suggest looking into Anguttara Nikaya V.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta Subjects for Contemplation http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-057.html regarding contemplation on kamma. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Nori and Peter, [snip] > The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there..."(Vis. XVI) > > I think it's more useful to think of compassion, good, evil and so on as > arising and subsiding according to conditions, rather than in terms of > 'beings', which are concepts. Compassion arises with understanding of the > nature of beings and of suffering--no one who 'should' feel compassion and > no one for whom one should feel compassion, ultimately. Just my opinion! > > mike 23752 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Hi Nori, All This may have been covered. But another reason to develop compassion is because it is a lofty and detached mental state beneficial for the one developing compassion as well as those people that encounter such a one. It helps clear the mind and establish beneficial conditions for cultivating insight and overcoming greater amounts of suffering. If no loftier (enlightened) states are achieved, it is a way to at least achieve a heavenly rebirth TG In a message dated 7/28/2003 11:20:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > Greetings to all, > > > >I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > >here it is: > > > >- If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > >places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower > life > >forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > >humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What > is > >the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > > >Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know > what > >to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for > dinner > >or refrain from eating chicken. > > > > > >with metta, > >nori > 23753 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:38pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "slartibarfast_147" wrote: > Greetings to all, > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > or refrain from eating chicken. Dear Nori, Welcome to the list. Not sure where eating or not eating chicken relates to your first question? Peter wrote:> It is true that all suffering one experiences is created by one's own > negative actions. Nevertheless, bad deeds are committed out of > ignorance. Beings do not know or do not accept the law of karma, so > they engage in activities that bring about suffering. Thus, > understanding that no one is "evil", we are simply ignorant and that > is why we cause suffering to ourselves and to others, one can feel > compassion towards everyone. _ and you replied: NORI: Not all are ignorant of the extreme suffering they inflict through bad/evil actions. Many are quite aware of the results, and do it quite intentionally, since they simply do not care. ------------------+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I think anyone who does harm must be acting out of ignorance of the law of kamma. How could anyone even kill a mosquito if they knew the kammic result of killing? We can't change the realm of animals or insects to be human so it is good to reflect "all beings are owners of their kamma, whatever they do of that their will be the heir": ""Equanimity is characterized as promoting the aspect of neutrality towards beings. its function is to see equality in beings. It is manifested as the quieting of resentment and approval. its proximate cause is seeing ownership of deeds (kamma) thus: "Beings are owners of their deeds. Whose (if not theirs) is the choice by which they will become happy, or will get free from suffering, or will not fall away from the success they have reached?" It succeeds when it makes resentment and approval subside, and it fails when it produces the equanimity of unknowing, which is that (worldly-minded indifference of ignorance) based on the home-life.""Visuddhimagga (lX, 96) On the other hand sometimes we have the chance to feed animals or maybe we see an insect in the toilet bowl and carefully pick them out - it is the time for compassion. RobertK > 23754 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear Sara, > --- Sarah wrote: > Sara: "This is why, as I > > understand, they are not path condition. Similarly > > only cetasikas (good > > and bad) can be jhana condition." > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > That´s just the point I´ve asked to that good > pal, The Self Assigned MICHAEL THE BUDDHA! Hi Icarvs, I'm sorry, I haven't been keeping up on all of the posts, could you tell me who Michael the Buddha is? Is this a real Buddha or a nickname for a member? Sorry, just trying to keep up. Metta, James 23755 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Sarah, Thanks for your explanations. While flipping through CMA I noticed that some consciousnesses are classified as prompted or unprompted and I was wondering why "promptedness" isn't one of the 24 conditions. It makes sense that it is because promptedness is a combination of several conditions. And the same reasoning applies to why the path factors wrong action, speech, and livelihood are not path conditions (because they are combinations of conditions). I'll buy it thanks to your prompt. Larry 23756 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi Jon, Thanks for your clarification on nirodha samapatti: that only nonreturners and arahants can practice it. Good job. Larry 23757 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:57pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? (math) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > Everyone, > > This has reminded me of a question I have had. I'll post it here and > see if anyone has any thoughts. > > As I've heard, there is no beginning point according to Buddhist > philosophy. Therefore, going back, we have been through an infinite > amount of lives. However, mathmatically, if the number of lives is > infinte, then the amount of bad (and good) Kamma must also be > infinite. Therefore, aren't we then forced to be sort of "balanced" > in terms of our Kamma? > > Hope that makes sense... :-) > > Peace, > > > Dave Hi Dave, This is a very interesting point. Yes I agree with you that in the grand scheme of things, kamma must ultimately balance out…if there is no beginning and time is infinite there would never be a time when bad karma would be more in abundance than good karma, on a cosmic scale that is. Of course, at any one point in the karma stream, like an individual lifetime, one can be more abundant than the other, but ultimately that doesn't matter. I think that you make a very good point, at least indirectly, that we shouldn't pursue good karma in the hopes that it will get us anywhere. Ultimately, the bad karma is bound to occur again and balance everything out. The only true goal is to reach nibbana and eradicate all karma, then the wheel of samsara is halted for good. Metta, James 23758 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Nina: "There is no idea of my sila, citta and panna. Without satipatthana there cannot be this kind of purity, visuddhi." Hi Nina, I agree. I wonder why there is so little discussion of satipatthana in Visuddhimagga. Maybe because it is a discussion of the path of jhana. I notice that 'proximate cause' is not a strict category. Rather, it seems like one of many possible ways of viewing an object. Perhaps we could say awareness of realities (satipatthana) is also a proximate cause of panna. Larry 23759 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:30pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 2. What is understanding? Understanding (pa~n~naa) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplidsh neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. 23760 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Hi Kom, Would you care to explain "insight knowledge" and "profitable consciousness" in the following sentence? Vism XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (pa~n~naa) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. 23761 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "There is no idea of my sila, citta and panna. Without > satipatthana there cannot be this kind of purity, visuddhi." > > Hi Nina, > > I agree. I wonder why there is so little discussion of satipatthana in > Visuddhimagga. Maybe because it is a discussion of the path of jhana. I > notice that 'proximate cause' is not a strict category. Rather, it seems > like one of many possible ways of viewing an object. Perhaps we could > say awareness of realities (satipatthana) is also a proximate cause of > panna. > _________ Dear Larry, Buddhaghosa set out the complete path for the highest type of arahant who has mastery of jhana and the 4 discriminations. It doesn't mean that everyone has to go this very supreme way. Sammasammadhi (right concentration) also occurs when there is satipatthana in daily life. It focuses on nama or rupa, but is khanika, momentary. When there is vipassana nana samadhi is powerful for those brief moments. Robert 23762 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Buddhatrue(James): Buddhatrue: "I'm sorry, I haven't been keeping up on all of the posts, could you > tell me who Michael the Buddha is? Is this a real Buddha or a > nickname for a member? Sorry, just trying to keep up." --------------------------------------------------------------------- James, MICHAEL THE BUDDHA is a good and affectionate soul, despite his extemporaneous stands and radical opinions. If you go to http://www.geocities.com/Michaelbuddha/ you´ll find all of his interesting remarks. Sometimes he himself posts some material by Yahoo mail to me, to Sarah and others. And we do reply to him appropriately! Personally, I would prefer to call him a Padmasambhava´s avatar, but he will keep his stand on and on: he is MICHAEL THE BUDDHA... so, let it be! Metta, Ícarvs 23763 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:38 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) > > > Hi Kom, > > Would you care to explain "insight knowledge" and "profitable > consciousness" in the following sentence? > > Vism XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (panna) is of many > sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it > all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, > besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind > intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge > associated with profitable consciousness. > I need to pick up my copy of vism in storage first... My questions (to myself) in order to answer your question is: 1) What is meant by understanding (panna) in the first part of this paragraph? 2) It's pretty clear that insight knowledge is panna, but is it panna confined to Satipatthana only? These two questions probably would be answered in the context / further explanations in the text. There is a point that may help. For the profitable consciousness, kusala states are most likely meant. Here, the text excludes panna that is con-ascent with resultant (vipaka) and functional (kiriya) states, and hence specifically mean panna in the impulsion (javana) process. kom 23764 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear LBIDD: LIBDD:"I noticed that > some consciousnesses are classified as prompted or > unprompted and I was > wondering why "promptedness" isn't one of the 24 > conditions. It makes > sense that it is because promptedness is a > combination of several > conditions." ----------------------------------------------------- Only to add, these combinations form: The Eight Great Resultants - Attha Kamavicara Vipaka Cittani 4) 39 One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with pleasure, and connected with knowledge. 5) 40 One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with pleasure, and combined with knowledge. 6) 41 One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with pleasure, and uncombined with knowledge. 7) 42 One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with pleasure, and uncombined with knowledge. 8) 43 One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with indifference, and combined with knowledge. 9) 44 One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with indifference, and combined with knowledge. 10) 45 One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with indifference, and uncombined with knowledge. 11) 46 One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with indifference and uncombined with knowledge. All these are Kusala Cittani. The Akusala Cittani - connected with aversion or ill-will - Domanasagagatam: 12) 9. One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with displeasure, and connected with ill-will. Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam asankharikam ekam. 13) 10. One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with displeasure, and connected with ill-will. Sasankharikam ekan'ti. After all these, comes the First Path Consciousness! ------------------------------------------------------ LIBDD: "And the same reasoning applies to why > the path factors wrong > action, speech, and livelihood are not path > conditions (because they are > combinations of conditions). I'll buy it thanks to > your prompt." ------------------------------------------------------ Domanasagagatam ( Akusala Cittani) are only the Domanassasahagatam patighasampayuttam asankharikam ekam and Sasankharikam ekan'ti - connected, obviously, with prompted and unprompted ill-will. Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23765 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions dear LIBDD: Since I was quoting my own list, I could put the first elements of it, namely: 1) Akusalavipaka cittani: consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with indifference, and disconnected with wrong view. Kusalavipaka cittani 2) 26 Investigating Consciousness, accompanied by pleasure. 3) 27 Investigation consciousness, accompanied by indifference. And after these, The Eight Great Resulatants Attha Kamavicara Vipaka Cittani!!! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23766 From: slartibarfast_147 Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:14pm Subject: Re: If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? Hi all, Thank you everyone for your valuable comments. peace, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I think there are a couple of answers that come from the Suttas on this > question.....the first would come from the Duggata Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn15-011.html > > " At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable > beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though > beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & > wandering on. When you see someone who has fallen on hard times, overwhelmed > with hard times, you should conclude: 'We, too, have experienced just this > sort of thing in the course of that long, long time.' > "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A > beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and > fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus > experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the > cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, > enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." > > So from this we can see that suffering is universal, we have all reaped > the consequences of unwholesome actions, thoughts and speech. I think this > understanding naturally gives rise to compassion. Also the very practice of > arousing compassion is wholesome and thus beneficial as an antidote to > hatred or pride. Ray > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "slartibarfast_147" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:31 PM > Subject: [dsg] If there is Kamma? Then why compassion? > > > > Greetings to all, > > > > I hope I don't sound like a jerk asking this question, but anyway > > here it is: > > > > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower life > > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What is > > the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? > > > > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know what > > to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for dinner > > or refrain from eating chicken. > > > > > > with metta, > > nori 23767 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear LIBDD: Consciousness that arise according to the bases are of the 89 type: 72 arise either depending on the heart base or without a base.30 arise depending on the Heart (hadayavatthu) base. Only to resume this very, very long citation of the Abhidhamma, a summary of all the bases can be stated as: six kinds of them, namely, eye, ear nose, tongue, body and heart. All these, too, are found in the Sense-sphere. But in the Form-sphere are three bases - nose, tongue, and body are not found. In the Formless-sphere no base exists. Therein the five elements of sense-impressions lie entirely dependent on the five sensory parts on the organs as their respective bases. But the mind-element, namely, the five-door averting consciousness and the (two types of) receiving consciousness - rest in dependence on the heart. Likewise the remaining mind-conscious-element comprising the investigating consciousness, the great Resultants, the two accompanied by aversion, the first Path consciousness, smiling consciousness, and Form-sphere consciousness, rest in dependence on the heart. The remaining classes of consciousness whether Moral, Immoral, Functional, or Supramundane, are either dependent on, or independent of, the heart-base. The Formless-sphere Resultants are independent of the heart-bases. It should be known that in the Sense-sphere seven elements are dependent on the six bases, in the Form-sphere four are dependent on three bases, in the Formless-sphere the one single mind-element is not dependent on any. Forty-three arise dependent on a base. Forty-two arise with or without a base. The Formless Resultants arise without any base. Well, that´s all that I could understand untill now!!! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23768 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > James, MICHAEL THE BUDDHA is a good and affectionate soul, > despite his extemporaneous stands and radical opinions. If you go to > http://www.geocities.com/Michaelbuddha/ you´ll find all of his > interesting remarks. Sometimes he himself posts some material by > Yahoo mail to me, to Sarah and others. > And we do reply to him appropriately! > Personally, I would prefer to call him a Padmasambhava´s avatar, > but he will keep his stand on and on: he is MICHAEL THE BUDDHA... so, > let it be! > > Metta, Ícarvs Hi Icarvs, I checked out the website. The messages appear to be the rantings of a lunatic, not at all Buddha-like material. I think you give this person far too much credit, but thank you for the information. Metta, James 23769 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Hi Kom, Thanks for your prompt reply. That would be great if you could get your copy of Vism. as an additional resource. I think this text can be understood on many levels from beginner to advanced. So, whatever your interest, could you include an explanation that us beginners can understand in your discussion. No need for a huge treatise. Just something short and to the point. However, there are many very advanced people in this group, so be careful. Larry 23770 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Icarvs, My name is Larry. Thanks for all the info. Could you explain the difference between prompted and unprompted consciousness and give examples of the various consciousnesses? Thanks, Larry 23771 From: Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Robert, This is exactly what I would like to dissect. What is sammasamadhi in daily life? Concentration is called tranquility and it is called one-pointed. Also there seems to be aspects of clarity and presence, at least in daily life. So what is going on with sammasamadhi, in the moment? Larry -------------------- Robert: Dear Larry, Buddhaghosa set out the complete path for the highest type of arahant who has mastery of jhana and the 4 discriminations. It doesn't mean that everyone has to go this very supreme way. Sammasammadhi (right concentration) also occurs when there is satipatthana in daily life. It focuses on nama or rupa, but is khanika, momentary. When there is vipassana nana samadhi is powerful for those brief moments. 23772 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Larry & Kom Since Kom doesn't have his copy of TPOP with him, may I butt in here and mention something about these particular terms. In Nanamoli's translation which we are using, "inside knowledge" is the term used for the Pali expression "vipassana nana", and "profitable consciousness" is the term used for "kusala citta". (Larry, this kind of information can often be found by looking through the index and/or the Pali-English glossary at the back). I don't know if this helps. Kom, any further thoughts/comments? Jon --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Larry, ... > I need to pick up my copy of vism in storage first... My questions > (to > myself) in order to answer your question is: > > 1) What is meant by understanding (panna) in the first part of this > paragraph? > 2) It's pretty clear that insight knowledge is panna, but is it > panna confined to Satipatthana only? > > These two questions probably would be answered in the context / > further explanations in the text. > > There is a point that may help. For the profitable consciousness, > kusala > states are most likely meant. Here, the text excludes panna that > is > con-ascent with resultant (vipaka) and functional (kiriya) states, > and hence specifically mean panna in the impulsion (javana) process. > > kom 23773 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah Dear Howard, op 29-07-2003 15:49 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > One > is always a victim when awareness is missing. N: Very well expressed. I think of the many texts on neglectfulness and its dangers, and heedfulness, and its benefits. Nina. 23774 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:41pm Subject: cramped conditions Hi Larry, I found a text, footnote to Vis. XI, 121: Nina 23775 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Larry: Larry: "My name is Larry. Thanks for all the info. Could you > explain the > difference between prompted and unprompted > consciousness and give > examples of the various consciousnesses? Thanks," ------------------------------------------------------ I will try it Larry... First, take the Attha Kamavacara Kriya Cittani (Eight types of Functional Consciousness - Javana), for example: "One consciousness, prompted, accompanied with pleasure, and combined with knowledge." Well, taking a good Pali-English Dictionary ( as the http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/ ) , we´ll find for "sasankharikam' ekam" the following entry: "sasankhárika-citta (in Dhs.: sasankhárena ) a prepared, or prompted state of consciousness, arisen after prior deliberation (e.g. weighing of motives) or induced by others (command, advice, persuasion) - See Tab. I; exemplified in Vis.M. XIV, 84f. - Opposite: asankhárika-citta, q.v." So, a "prompted" stated is a prepared one, arisen after some motivation ot induced by others. You are watching at your TV a Corn Flakes´ advertisement, and thereafter you´ll go to the Supermarket and buy a box of such Corn Flakes. The opposite term, asankhárika, is quoted at the same dictionary as "asankhárika-citta an Abhidhamma term signifying a 'state of consciousness arisen spontaneously', i.e. without previous deliberation, preparation, or prompting by others; hence: 'unprepared, unprompted'. This term and its counterpart (sasankhárikacitta, q.v.), probably go back to a similar distinction made in the Suttas (A.IV.171; "Path" 184). See Tab. I; examples in Vis.M. XIV, 84f.". So, a unprompted state of consciousness is one that arises spontaneously, without deliberation. You are at the streets and suddenly a car out of control is coming towards you... you jump off to a secure place by instinct, not because there is a car without control out there! Other people couldn´t do the same... and take on the impact at full. All the world is Dukkha... Curiously, the word asankhata, very similar to the preceeding one, means "'Unformed, Unoriginated, Unconditioned' is a name for Nibbána, the beyond of all becoming and conditionality". I hope that´s good enough. Corrections and suggestions are welcome! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23776 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conciousness after death Hi Nori, Welcome to DSG! You ask an excellent question about compassion -- and certainly didn’t sound like a jerk --and received some super responses.from many members we’d all like to encourage to post more - TG, Ray, RobK, Andrew, Peter V, Mike.....;-) So please keep up the qus. To pick up on the quote Ray gave (Duggata Sutta) and his comment: “understanding naturally gives rise to compassion”, I think this is so true. For most of us there are only conditions for compassion (and then only sometimes) when we see someone suffering, such as a child crying after falling over or being punished. We don’t think at these times ‘Oh, he was running too fast and deserved it, so no compassion’. In the same way when we see insects suffering or think about beings in hell planes perhaps. When we were recently in Bangkok discussing dhamma with friends, we were discussing about how there are opportunities for metta and upekkha (equanimity) more often in a day, in fact whenever we’re with or thinking about others. For compassion to arise, the others have to be suffering. For the Buddha and those who’ve fully understood the Four Noble Truths, this can be at anytime. However, I think that as Ray said, as understanding develops, there are more and more opportunities to sympathise and have compassion for others and to distinguish this wholesome state from its near enemy of unhappy feeling and aversion or distress. Btw, there can only be metta or compassion for living beings - not for dead chicken;-) Briefly on your other qus here as they may have been answered by now - if not pls ask for more details and preferably add what you know or have heard from another friend;-) ...... --- slartibarfast_147 wrote: > Greetings to all, > > > i would appreciate any help from anyone who can shed light on this: > > According to dhamma, does conciousness depend on the physical body? .... In this plane of existence, yes. ..... > Does conciousness continue after death of this body? ..... Yes. - this body being various physical phenomena that fall away. ..... > If so how was it realized by Guatama/Buddha directly; perceived by > himself directly ? ..... 1. the Buddha could in a flash recall all past lives and knew precisely all the conditions which would affect life in future for those not fully enlightened. 2. By understanding more and more about consciousness at this moment, the arising and falling away of this consciousness and the ‘anatta’ characteristic of consciousness, the developed understanding realizes that this is how it’s always been and always will be while there are conditions. In other words, there is rebirth at each moment in this sense. Nori, meanwhile I’d like to ask you to share with us a little information about where you live, your background in Buddhism and so on. Obviously you have a very keen interest and I’m very glad you’re sharing it with us. Please don’t think about sounding like a jerk - some of us would never post if we were too concerned about this and so often the simplest sounding questions are the best;-) With metta, Sarah =========== 23777 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear James, James: "I checked out the website. The messages appear to > be the rantings of > a lunatic, not at all Buddha-like material. I think > you give this > person far too much credit, but thank you for the > information." ------------------------------------------------------ Well, Karuna, Metta and so on are more than words. Let it be. Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23778 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for your reply. > > I think both of us understand that the term "desire" is to be > understood in its context. And I don't think we have major > disaggreement in that respect. ..... So far, so good.... .... > > I don't quite understand what you mean by the following in your > message. Please explain. Thank you. .... Sorry for the delay - I’ll try to clarify. I’d better requote as it was a few days ago: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > So on account of what objects are these wholesome states and right > effort > > supposed to arise? On account of just the same objects which are > usually > > the objects of attachment, ignorance and aversion. In otherwords, > the > > `All' are to be known by right understanding and accompanying > factors. > > > > "Forms, sounds, odours, tastes, > > Tactiles and all objects of mind - > > Desirable, lovely, agreeable, > > So long as it's said: `They are.' > > > > "These are considered happiness > > By the world with its devas; > > But where these cease, > > That they consider suffering. > > > > "The noble ones have seen as happiness > > The ceasing of identity. > > This (view) of those who clearly see > > Runs counter to the entire world. > > > > "What others speak of as happiness, > > That the noble ones say is suffering; > > What others speak of as suffering, > > That the noble ones know as bliss." > > > > (SN, Sa.laayatanavagga, Bk of Six Sense Bases., 136 Delight in > Forms) > > ..... Briefly, I understood you to be saying that whether desire (chanda) was wholesome or unwholesome depended on the object of the citta cognized. “It is what one desires for makes the difference” you wrote, suggesting that if there was desire for the development of wholesome qualities, the citta and desire must be wholesome and if there was desire for sense objects, that it must be unwholesome, I understood you to be saying. the point of quoting this sutta above was to suggest that it’s not the object that determines the ‘jati’ or nature of the consciousness and that forms, sounds, odours, tastes, for example, can be experienced by kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome) chanda and when we aspire to develop wholesome qualities, this aspiration can also be accompanied by kusala or akusala states. Hence the importance of developing sati and panna, otherwise we’ll always be fooled along with the rest of ‘the world’. Mike wrote in one post while we were away along a similar line: “For me, it’s hardest to see the danger in enjoying the beauties of nature and my inclination is always to delight in them, indulge in them and cling to them -- this is unwise attention, I think.” Let me know if this still isn’t clear or if I’ve misinterpreted your other comments. Glad to read all your comments as usual, Victor. With metta, Sarah ====== 23779 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Advice to Laypeople Hi Peter V, --- vajramantra wrote: > Hello all, > > Could you please recommend some work specifically dealing with > advices to laypeople with regards to view, meditation and behavior? ..... I think you would appreciate Nina’s book ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’, especially as you’re getting to ‘know’ her on this list: http://www.abhidhamma.org/buddhism_in_daily_life.htm I’d also recommend any of the books and materials and texts from these websites (the first two are RobertK’s) and the last one is Alan Weller’s: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ There are also many suttas which you’d find relevant - others like Christine, Victor and Mike might give some of their favourite links perhaps. I re-posted one yesterday which someone recently posted: Vyagghapajja Sutta (Conditions of Welfare) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-054.html Finally, I think you’d find this post of Rob M’s useful. He gives a summary of a book by Dr K.Sri Dhammananda on just this topic. I’m sure he’d be glad to discuss any of it further too. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22561 Appreciating all your contributions, Peter. Metta, Sarah ====== 23780 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration [James] Dear James, You write, J: "Too many people assume what it is like to be an arahant; and for some reason the assumption is that an arahant is existing in continual bliss. That is not the case as is evidenced by the sutta I quoted. I you have alternative information, please present it; I would be very interested. The arahant has to deal with the same mundane realities that we all have to deal with. Conceptual thinking is a part of samsara, just that fact makes it a burden...arahants carry that burden better than wordlings." --> Dan: We are indeed encouraged to reflect on the virtues of the Buddha as one of the 40 meditation subjects so frequently discussed. In so doing, though, it is important to reflect on the virtues as they are, not as we wish them to be (e.g., not to assume the arahant is existing in continual bliss, as you point out). Central to this exercise is to stick to the virtues discussed in the texts, and "arahant live in continual bliss" is no where to be found. However, there is much discussion about how the arahant does not deal with the same mundane realities that we all have to deal with. In particular, dosa, lobha, and moha are some of the mundane realities that arahants do not have to deal with. Now, many people do not believe that such a thing is possible, but that would not be very "Buddhist". "Conceptual thinking" is indeed a part of samsara for me (and an important part). And as the Buddha tells us, "conceptual thinking" is something arahants engage in too. It would be very hard to function without engaging in conceptual thinking! The difference between me and an arahant is that the arahant (who has escaped samsara but not conceptual thinking, escaped papañca but not samsara) does not mistake concept for reality. D: "Also, my understanding is that while vipassana is free from conceptual thinking, jhana is not." J: "My understanding is the exact opposite." --> Dan: This is standard Theravada stuff. See, e.g., BB's CMA (p. 56): "The object of the jhana-consciousness is a mental image called the counterpart sign (patibhaganimitta). This sign is considered a conceptual object (paññati)..." 'Vipassana', on the other hand, is taken as direct insight into realities. (In the texts, it's not a "meditation technique" a la Goenka or Mahasi.) Dan 23781 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:04am Subject: Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear James, > You write, > > J: "Too many people assume what it is like to be an arahant; and Hi Dan, First of all, there is something you must realize about me, I am not 100% Theravada Buddhist. I believe in the path described by the Lord Buddha, but not most of the higher order philosophy devised by subsequent bhikkhus. I reject the Abhidhamma flat out as heresy and don't take stock in the use of Pali in explaining dharma to westerners, much is lost and confused. With that said, I don't believe in meditating on the virtues of the Buddha. Since I am not a Buddha, it would be ridiculous for me to meditate on something I could not completely understand, it would all be conjecture and projection on my part. The mind in samsara cannot understand the mind in nibbana. I put forth a hypothesis based on the texts, you have stated that my hypothesis is incorrect but have not offered an alternative hypothesis. If you cannot offer an alternative hypothesis, you can't say that my hypothesis is incorrect…that is just common sense. As far as your other distinctions about meditation, I find your points confused. First, counter-part signs are not always an object of jhana-consciousness and not everyone has them; this is a matter that is explored in subsequent texts of the original suttas but not mentioned in the original suttas. Even as such, they should not be conceptualized but simply experienced as such: an eye-sign for eye consciousness, an ear-sign for ear consciousness, etc., nothing more. Secondly, you state that 'vipassana' in the original texts is direct insight into realities and yet I don't believe you are going to find any references to `vipassana', using that Pali term, in the original texts. Vipassana, as it is used in contemporary texts, is like the technique taught by Goenka, etc., where sensations are traced to their roots in mental activity and thus categorized and conceptualized until full revelation of the Four Noble Truths. You see, the use of Pali terms, to add distinction or special ness to dharma concepts, is becoming extremely confusing and should be abandoned, in my estimation. Metta (used mostly as a matter of convention), James 23782 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah Hi Howard (Azita & All), Your response is very coherent and I thought we’d be on the same page here. One clarification below: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree with you Sarah. Perhaps there is some deficiency in terms > of > literal content in what the friends are saying, but the sense of it, to > walk > lightly in the world, is helpful, I think, for Buddhists and > non-Buddhists > alike. It's not so much that "entertainments" are needed, but that an > "unclenching" > and a "lightness" are needed. > -------------------------------------------------- ..... S:well-put;-) ..... S:> > in her series with A.Sujin, ‘seeing here is no different from seeing > > there’. To take it further, seeing with wise companions is no > different > > from seeing with unwise companions. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, yes and no. It is easier to learn from wise companions than > > unwise companions. ..... S: I’d just like to clarify a little - the ‘seeing’ in the comment above was meant to refer to seeing consciousness (cakkhu vinnana) and not to seeing as in comprehending/understanding. In other words, dhammas to be known, such as seeing or hearing consciousness, visible objects or sounds, are just the same regardless of the company. ..... H:>But I do think that based on a careful study of the > Buddha's > teachings, teachings mulled over again and again until there is a deep > imbibing > of them, the mind becomes conditioned to learn, and to apprehend with > wisdom, > under all circumstances and from all people. Eventually, to paraphrase > what > the Tibetans have said, it becomes possible to see all things as Dhamma, > hear > all sounds as mantra, and experience all people as Buddha. There is > nowhere we > can look that we will not see the truth of the Dhamma revealed. > ---------------------------------------------------- ..... S:Yes, and certainly none of us would be here if we didn’t appreciate the importance of that deep imbibing;-) I’d like to fish out and repeat a quote from the Comy to the Satipatthana Sutta under Factors of Enlightenment, Energy: “The avoiding of lazy folk is the avoiding of people without physical and mental energy who are like a rock-snake lying inert after a full feed. And the association with folk who have begun to exert themselves is mixing with those whose minds are turned towards and who are endeavoring for the attainment of Nibbana. Inclination towards the development of this enlightenment factor is the inclining, sloping and bending of the mind towards right exertion in all postures of sitting, standing and so forth. The enlightenment factor that arises in this way comes to completion by culture through the path of arahantship.” .....> S:> > As understanding > develops > > panna will condition the way of living without thinking ‘I have to > live > > like this or I have to do this or that’ â€?. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Very "Zen"! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------- .... S:And very “Anatta”! ;-) ..... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This is a true and interesting point. It is very important, > however, > to be as aware as possible of volition, and of what is willed, whenever > possible, so that one can avoid unconscious papanca which embellishes > akusala cetana > and so that one can support by awareness the furtherance of kusala > cetana. One > is always a victim when awareness is missing. > ------------------------------------------------------- ..... S:I think this sounds like a good compromise;-) We agree on the importance of awareness and the danger of ‘unconscious papanca’ and the importance of knowing and being mindful of the difference between the kusala and akusala mental states including volition. ...... > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There are "good" and "evil" people to be found among all > religionists, > and among irreligionists as well. And if one looks carefully, there is > goodness to be found even in those who seem to be clearly "evil". Given > that one > stays mindful and cautiously avoids being led astray, there is much to > learn from > all sources, I believe. In this regard, the development of the Brahma > viharas > is useful not only to bring joy and calm to oneself, and to enable one > to act > wholesomely and harmlessly in the world, but it also serves as > protection for > oneself. The Brahma viharas, it seems to me, create an envelope of > security > and peace about oneself, enabling one to learn from all sources while > remaining > unstained. [I don't mean to imply that the Brahma viharas are a > substitute > for the realization of nibbana, of course. Nothing is.] > ---------------------------------------------------- ..... S:Very nicely put as I knew you would. When I was an undergraduate uni student, for 3 years, I was very involved in slum and other community work projects in my free time - setting up the first free legal centre in the U.K. and so on. Every Sunday, I used to work with ex-convicts, supposedly helping them integrate back into society. There were ex-murderers, psychopaths, the lot -- and not all success stories. I haven’t mentioned any of these activities for decades, but I look back on these times as very happy, rewarding and the activities mostly pretty wholesome (in a very generalised sense) in spite of the mixed company;-). It was all a welcome contrast to all the other far more self-centred indulgences during those heady hippie days....even if there wasn't any understanding of the Dhamma. Finally, I appreciated these reminders from Mike which I’d like to repeat here: ***** M:“ "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there..."(Vis. XVI) “I think it's more useful to think of compassion, good, evil and so on as arising and subsiding according to conditions, rather than in terms of 'beings', which are concepts. Compassion arises with understanding of the nature of beings and of suffering--no one who 'should' feel compassion and no one for whom one should feel compassion, ultimately. Just my opinion!.” ***** S: Thanks, Howard. I always appreciate your encouragement of all kinds of kusala. Thx to Mike too for all his good doses of sanity. Metta, Sarah ===== 23783 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Ícarvs, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions > Well, Karuna, Metta and so on are more than words. > Let it be. True and well-said, friend. mike 23784 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > > Dear James, > > James: "I checked out the website. The messages > appear to > > be the rantings of > > a lunatic, not at all Buddha-like material. I think > > you give this > > person far too much credit, but thank you for the > > information." > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Well, Karuna, Metta and so on are more than words. > Let it be. > > Metta, Ícarvs *yawn* 23786 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:31am Subject: Re: Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration Thanks, James. This clarifies a lot. I wish you the best! J: "First of all, there is something you must realize about me, I am not 100% Theravada Buddhist. I believe in the path described by the Lord Buddha, but not most of the higher order philosophy devised by subsequent bhikkhus. I reject the Abhidhamma flat out as heresy and don't take stock in the use of Pali in explaining dharma to westerners, much is lost and confused. With that said, I don't believe in meditating on the virtues of the Buddha. Since I am not a Buddha, it would be ridiculous for me to meditate on something I could not completely understand, it would all be conjecture and projection on my part. The mind in samsara cannot understand the mind in nibbana. I put forth a hypothesis based on the texts, you have stated that my hypothesis is incorrect but have not offered an alternative hypothesis. If you cannot offer an alternative hypothesis, you can't say that my hypothesis is incorrect…that is just common sense. "As far as your other distinctions about meditation, I find your points confused. First, counter-part signs are not always an object of jhana-consciousness and not everyone has them; this is a matter that is explored in subsequent texts of the original suttas but not mentioned in the original suttas. Even as such, they should not be conceptualized but simply experienced as such: an eye-sign for eye consciousness, an ear-sign for ear consciousness, etc., nothing more. Secondly, you state that 'vipassana' in the original texts is direct insight into realities and yet I don't believe you are going to find any references to `vipassana', using that Pali term, in the original texts. Vipassana, as it is used in contemporary texts, is like the technique taught by Goenka, etc., where sensations are traced to their roots in mental activity and thus categorized and conceptualized until full revelation of the Four Noble Truths. You see, the use of Pali terms, to add distinction or special ness to dharma concepts, is becoming extremely confusing and should be abandoned, in my estimation." 23787 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections. Epilogue 1. for Sarah [Howard] Hi Howard! Just a quick comment on your statement: "It is easier to learn from wise companions than unwise companions." I'm not convinced! Unwise companions may put very attractive packaging on wrong views -- very easy to learn and follow! But are these the kind of lessons we want to learn? (I'd say: "Yes." Lobha is quite a reliable guide because we really want to follow it -- an excellent teacher. The problem is that it leads down the wrong path.) Dan 23788 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:42am Subject: [dsg] Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Sarah and all, Thank you for your explanation. I think what I said "It is what one desires for makes the difference" did not convey the idea that there is desire to be abandoned, eradicated, and there is desire to be developed. What I said was unclear. Now, we have agreed that the term "desire" is to be understood in its context. Desire for the senses is a mental defilement, and that desire is to be eradicated. However, there is this desire that is to be developed as one of the four bases of power (iddhi), namely, desire, persistence (effort), intent (will), and discrimination (the discriminating mind). Particularly regarding desire as a base of power, Tan Thanissaro Bhikkhu's explained: We should note here that desire in this case means desire directed toward the goal of the practice. This desire does not count as craving, which as a cause of stress is directed at further states of becoming in the round of rebirth. * Thank you for your explanation. I would be interested to discuss the topic on desire, particularly as a base of power, and the topic on the four bases of power in general. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor * http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > [snip] > Briefly, I understood you to be saying that whether desire (chanda) was > wholesome or unwholesome depended on the object of the citta cognized. "It > is what one desires for makes the difference" you wrote, suggesting that > if there was desire for the development of wholesome qualities, the citta > and desire must be wholesome and if there was desire for sense objects, > that it must be unwholesome, I understood you to be saying. the point of > quoting this sutta above was to suggest that it's not the object that > determines the `jati' or nature of the consciousness and that forms, > sounds, odours, tastes, for example, can be experienced by kusala > (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome) chanda and when we aspire to develop > wholesome qualities, this aspiration can also be accompanied by kusala or > akusala states. Hence the importance of developing sati and panna, > otherwise we'll always be fooled along with the rest of `the world'. > > Mike wrote in one post while we were away along a similar line: > "For me, it's hardest to see the danger in enjoying the beauties of nature > and my inclination is always to delight in them, indulge in them and cling > to them -- this is unwise attention, I think." > > Let me know if this still isn't clear or if I've misinterpreted your other > comments. > > Glad to read all your comments as usual, Victor. > > With metta, > > Sarah 23789 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:42am Subject: Subcomy Vis. Dear all, here is a coarse translation of the first sentence of the Tika, I hope to be corrected. (I cannot translate the whole Tika!) First the relevant Vis passage: Now concentration was described under the heading of "consciousness" in the stanza: 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding' And that has been developed in all its aspects by the bhikkhu who is thus possessed of the more advanced development of concentration that has acquired with direct-knowledge the benefits described [in Chs. XII and XIII]. Pali of : samaadhi sabbaakaarena bhaavito hoti. The Tika elaborates on all these aspects: 1. sabbaakaarenaati upacaaraakaaro, appanaakaaro, vasiibhaavaakaaro, In all aspects means: the aspects of access, attainment , the development of the "masteries" (of jhana), vitakkaadisamatikkamaakaaro, ruupaadiihi virajjanaakaaro, the passing beyond applied thinking etc. [1], the discarding of materiality etc.[2] , cuddasadhaa cittassa paridamanaakaaro, pa~ncavidhaaanisa.msaadhigamaakaaroti the restraint of consciousness in fourteen ways [3], the acquirement of the fivefold benefit [4] evamaadinaa sabbena bhaavanaakaarena. thus it is , to begin with,with reference to the development in all aspects. notes: 1. the jhanafactor applied thinking and the other factors are abandoned successively as higher jhanas are attained. 2. material jhana is discarded when immaterial jhana is developed. 3. See Vis. XII, 12, these are the masteries of jhana 4. See Vis. 120: blissful abiding here, now; as proximate cause for insight; as proximate cause for direct knowledge (the supernormal powers); rebirth in the Brahma world; the attainment of cessation. Nina. 23790 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 1 Jon, Thank-you for your response and giving some good details of where you stand. I guess my original reply wasn't such a bad thing after all. I'm not exactly sure what the connection is between mundane concentration and insight but your comments on this caused me to consider the role the jhaanas play in bringing about supramundane path-consciousness. In the kusala section of the Dhammasangani concerning the lokuttaracittas, the first big part of it involves developing supramundane jhaana but when I got to section 358 it goes on to describe 19 other great methods in addition. eg. he develops supramundane satipatthana... This whole section tells me that there are other ways of attaining path-consciousness besides the jhaana method. In other words, like the jhaana method these other methods can also serve as a basis even though the path-consciousness is automatically accompanied by the 1st jhaana. Do you think that many of these methods are descriptive of the way of a sukkhavipassaka? I'm reading that it does and I'm wondering if you agree. There is uncertainty with some of the methods such as supramundane samatha (is it different from the jhaana method?). Best wishes, Jim > Jim > > Thanks for these comments. I agree with much of what you say here. > In particular, I agree that no-one can say when or in what manner > enlightenment will come (i.e., whether as a sukkhavipassaka or as a > dry-insight worker). > > In fact, I would go even further: I do not read the texts as > suggesting that one should elect to follow one way or the other -- I > regard these groupings as ex post facto classifications. You see, I > believe the teachings encourage us to take every opportunity to > develop kusala of all kinds, and that of course means samatha as well > as vipassana; it really depends on present circumstances and > conditions and our accumulated tendencies which particular form of > kusala if any will occur at a particular time. How things develop in > the long run is going to be determined very much by what happens > during all those kalpas that we have yet to go through ;-)). > > I also agree that each person's inclinations and aspirations are a > personal matter and not any one else's business. > > That said, however, the question of whether, according to the > doctrine as taught by the Buddha, the development of mundane > concentration/samatha (tranquility) is a necessary prerequisite for > the development of insight is one that, as I see it, needs to be > considered by everyone regardless of personal inclinations or > aspirations, since it goes to the very heart of the development of > the path. There is much material in the texts that has a bearing on > this question, and I think it is good to critically examine that > material. > > As you know, my own view is that the teachings do not make that > particular connection between mundane concentration and insight; but > this in no way lessens my regard for mundane concentration as a form > of kusala highly extolled by the Buddha and as such very worthy of > being developed. > > The immediate significance in practical terms of this question seems > to lie in whether or not one regards the lack of developed mundane > concentration as an obstacle to the development of insight at the > present moment, because of the perceived nexus between the two. > > Thanks for the opportunity to explain a bit further. > > Jon 23791 From: Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Icarvs, Is this your name, "Icarvs"? Well done on explaining "prompted and unprompted". Here is a note from the editors of "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": p.36: The multisignificant word 'sankhaara' is used here in a sense specific to the Abhidhamma to mean prompting, instigation, inducement (payoga), or the application of an expedient (upaaya).This prompting may be imposed by others, or it may originate from within oneself; the means employed may be bodily, verbal, or purely mental. This is a very handy book which you may be interested in buying some time. It was written by Acariya Anuruddha with the title "Abhidhammattha Sangaha" and is a very concise exposition of abhidhamma. This volume, "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" is a translation with commentary by U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi. Larry 23792 From: Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:34pm Subject: satipatthana Hi Nina, Could a satipatthana consciousness (panna?), on a mundane level, be either prompted or unprompted? How about Right Concentration on a mundane level? Could that be either prompted or unprompted? How about in a path moment? Could Right Sati and Right Concentration be either prompted or unprompted? Larry 23793 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends was( Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Christine, Azita, Sarah, all, Thank you for your thoughts and quotes on the role of the Dhamma friend. When I asked for comments, I was half- seriously wondering if there needed to be an unbroken link between us and the Buddha. That is, if we needed to hear the Dhamma from someone who had heard it from someone who heard it from someone who . . . . heard it from the Buddha. If such a link is vital, it would be due to the fact that only a Buddha can teach the Dhamma. That might explain why the Theras of old were in no hurry to commit the Tipitaka to writing: written words, indirectly conveyed, might not be enough. (?) Coincidentally, I read about 'saksit' this morning while straying onto another Yahoo list. 'Saksit' is from the Sanskrit, 'shakti-siddhi' and means "charismatic potency". Apparently, there is no support for it in the ancient texts but it is a popular explanation for the need to maintain an unbroken lineage in the sangha. Unless told otherwise, I will assume there is no need for "charismatic potency" in the lineage of Dhamma friendships. Changing the subject; One of the quotes you provided was the following which, Sarah tells us, was uttered by an arahant: I'm blind , my eyes are destroyed. I've stumbled on a wilderness track. Even if I must crawl, I'll go on, but not with an evil companion. This was directed at the poor monk who had earned the epithet, "evil companion" -- an unpleasant experience in ordinary circumstances. It a reminds me a questionable practice found in many Dhamma groups including (very rarely), DSG: Some people think they can castigate others without engaging in akusala, harsh speech. They point to the frequent use of 'fool,' 'evil one' and similar terms, in the Tipitaka. Obviously, as in the above case, it is possible to strongly rebuke someone while maintaining metta for them at the same time. But can we be sure this is what we are doing? Until we have a thorough understanding of kusala and akusala, it might be best to play it safe. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 23794 From: bodhi2500 Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 7:05pm Subject: Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi All There seems to be a few translations of the Abhidhammatthasangaha. Is there any particular translation anyone could recommend? I am considering buying one of these 3> The Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma, tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin, 2002 Translation of the Abhidhammatthasa.ngaha and Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii Compendium of Philosophy, tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1910, 1979, 1995 Translation of Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha. "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": by Bhikkhu Bodhi and U Rewata Dhamma. Larry you mentioned this one has a commentary, is it an accepted pali commentary or a com. by Bhikkhu Bodhi/U Rewata Dhamma? At the moment I'm leaning towards the Wijeratne/Gethin one, because of the added translation of a Pali commentary. Does anyone have any info on this commentary "Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii". I cant seem to find it on the Chattha Sangayana CD. Thanks Steve 23795 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi Steve, Sorry, I can't help with what it the best one. I have them all except the first (Wijeratne). You can find the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii in the Abhidhamma section of the CSCD. It's in .Tiikaa-co-paali. Jim > Hi All > There seems to be a few translations of the > Abhidhammatthasangaha. Is there any particular translation anyone > could recommend? I am considering buying one of these 3> > > The Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics > of Abhidhamma, > tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin, 2002 > Translation of the Abhidhammatthasa.ngaha and > Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii > > Compendium of Philosophy, > tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1910, 1979, 1995 > Translation of Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha. > > "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": by Bhikkhu Bodhi and U Rewata > Dhamma. Larry you mentioned this one has a commentary, is it an > accepted pali commentary or a com. by Bhikkhu Bodhi/U Rewata Dhamma? > > > At the moment I'm leaning towards the Wijeratne/Gethin one, because > of the added translation of a Pali commentary. Does anyone have any > info on this commentary "Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii". I cant seem to > find it on the Chattha Sangayana CD. > > > Thanks > Steve 23796 From: Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi Steve, The commentary in CMA is by U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi but is based on ancient commentaries. "The Summary of the Topics..." is new to me but looks pretty tasty. Gethin is an "up and coming" Pali scholar who wrote a couple of books I thought were pretty good. I think I'll get it. Do you have a source? The CMA is a modern classic and I have no hesitation in recommending it. Also, I think there is a little difference between a Pali scholar and a monk scholar in terms of practicing what one teaches. Larry 23797 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:47pm Subject: Well-spoken Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Kalyana-mitta - Admirable Friends was( Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) > Some people think they can castigate > others without engaging in akusala, harsh speech. They > point to the frequent use of 'fool,' 'evil one' and > similar terms, in the Tipitaka. Obviously, as in the > above case, it is possible to strongly rebuke someone > while maintaining metta for them at the same time. But > can we be sure this is what we are doing? Until we have > a thorough understanding of kusala and akusala, it might > be best to play it safe. :-) Quite right, in my opinion. Here's a simple standard that's very difficult to live up to in a rebuke (for us puthujjanas, anyway): "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." -- AN V.198 mike 23798 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Hi Larry, op 30-07-2003 02:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I wonder why there is so little discussion of satipatthana in > Visuddhimagga. Maybe because it is a discussion of the path of jhana. N: There is: the development of insight and all stages up to enlightenment. The development of satipatthana is the development of vipassana. They are not two different matters. L: Perhaps we could say awareness of realities (satipatthana) is also a proximate cause of > panna. N: . I prefer to keep to the definitions in the Commentaries. Nina. 23799 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:30pm Subject: Inroduction of myself to the 'Dhamma Study Group' Sarah wrote: > Nori, meanwhile I'd like to ask you to share with us a little information > about where you live, your background in Buddhism and so on. Obviously you > have a very keen interest and I'm very glad you're sharing it with us. > Please don't think about sounding like a jerk - some of us would never > post if we were too concerned about this and so often the simplest > sounding questions are the best;-) > > With metta, > > Sarah Sure; Hi all, I live in New York City. Home of vanity, the biggest Ego's, uncontrolled sensual pleasures and desire; AKA massive suffering; Home of angry faces and rude attitudes ... Babylon. Rarely do I meet any good people here, although there are some. I still don't know what I'm doing here. Attachment to family I guess. I came across Buddhism a few years ago due to both 'seeking the ultimate truth of existence' (triggered by entheogens) and likewise due to extreme suffering and an unfulfilling life. ...Since then my suffering has been greatly reduced, although I still feel much. (...I feel like I'm at a AA meeting) Some site named "Mountain Man Graphics" in australia had some passages from Paul Carus's - Gospel of Buddha, on the internet. I read it and said "wow this actually makes sense, ...and actually sounds like the truth" unlike many other long winded religious and philosophical BALONEY I have read. And so, this eventually led me to the source - The Tipitaka, the oldest texts of Gotama, Buddha. My first book being the 'Dhammapada' (Oxford-sacred books of the east). Ever since, I have been a fan of Gotama (he's my hero). I also read other theological and philosophical works and have faith in nothing I cannot verify and experience myself. I can't express how happy I am to have found a Cyber-Sangha with kind people who also seek the same, since I have not a single friend or family member who even has an inkling of interest in it (i.e. The ultimate truth, happiness, dhamma). I hope to have many intriguing future conversations and realizations. with metta, nori