23800 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 7:51pm Subject: My realization on Compassion; How to love those who hate you hi all, I'm the one who posted the "If there is Kamma, then why compassion?" post. I have been contemplating this for a long, long time; looking for a solid foundation on sound reasoning. I have also recently read another passage related to this: Kakacupama Sutta The Simile of the Saw "...Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?" ---- I thought, man, Gautama must be mad! How are we to be sympathetic to those who show such extreme intentional hate toward us with no regard ??? How are we to show them good will and no hate/enmity ??? How are we to have equanimity of metta to all people, even those who are chopping us up ??? How do we have metta for those who hate us? ...those who infict pain upon us? I have been seeking a solid and sound line of reasoning other than "well thats just the ethical/moral way to be". This is not strong enough of a reason for me, especially if someone is chopping/sawing me up. So anyway, today I went hiking in the mountains near me, contemplating this issue and finally I have the realization I needed; a solid, sound line of reasoning. I'd like to share it with everyone; This is: My realization on Love and Hate: Among the things I hate, are those who hate, yet I hate (those who hate). Those who hate are born from hate, yet I still hate (those who hate). What I love, is those who love, yet I do not always love. Those who love are born of love, yet I do not always love. ---- Pretty hypocritical of me to have enmity toward those who hate; to those who cause extreme suffering to me and others. Hope it doesn't sound corny ...was profound for me. Just thought I'd share that. metta, nori 23801 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Jul 30, 2003 6:39pm Subject: Re: concentration Hi, I would just like to share my thoughts on concentration since I just experienced some insight into it today as I was hiking and contemplating. I was amazed at how well my mind performed on my last contemplation, cutting through to the heart of the issue due to my recent practice of concentration meditation. When we practice meditation, we concentrate our mind on the breath, we concentrate our the mind on the heart/feeling, we concentrate our mind on the mind, we concentrate our mind on the body. Whatever it is we concentrate our minds on for that meditation; we hold it there, for considerable time. Whatever it is we concentrate our minds on for that meditation, we focus only on that, in-and-of-itself. ...and we hold it there; and when and if the mind wanders or breaks the concentration we gently steer it back like gently guiding a horse back onto its trail by the reins. ... And what does this concentration of the mind (done for considerable time) do? It builds strenght in the mind. It builds persistence, it builds focus (i.e. single pointedness), it builds discernment. Weilding this tool of single-pointedness, persistence, and discernment, allows you to penetrate any questions/inquiries you may pose to yourself; any contemplations you may have on whatever subject. It gives you the strenght to focus on that contemplation and nothing else. It gives you the strenght to have persistence to remain on that contemplation until its end, even if for a considerable amount of time. It gives you the strenght to discern reality as it is (observing the issue and not adding any of your thought into it as you do in your concentration meditation). It gives you the persistence, discernment and single- pointedness/focus to break through to the realization like a sharp object piercing fabric (as opposed to a blunt one). Also apart from concentration on contemplation, it also gives you the persistence, and concentration of your mind to remain on yourself at all times ...on your mind ...on your heart/feelings ...on your body ...observing it at all times; aware. It gives you the persistence and concentration to remain on the four noble truths at all times (suffering, its origin, its end, and the path to that end); concentrated on yourself at all times, undistracted, observing your suffering as it arises, observing its origin, contemplating its end. This is the benefit of concentration. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > This is exactly what I would like to dissect. What is sammasamadhi in > daily life? Concentration is called tranquility and it is called > one-pointed. Also there seems to be aspects of clarity and presence, at > least in daily life. So what is going on with sammasamadhi, in the > moment? > > Larry > -------------------- > Robert: Dear Larry, > Buddhaghosa set out the complete path for the highest type of arahant > who has mastery of jhana and the 4 discriminations. It doesn't mean that > everyone has to go this very supreme way. Sammasammadhi (right > concentration) also occurs when there is satipatthana in daily life. It > focuses on nama or rupa, but is khanika, momentary. When there is > vipassana nana samadhi is powerful for those brief moments. 23802 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > This is exactly what I would like to dissect. What is sammasamadhi in > daily life? Concentration is called tranquility and it is called > one-pointed. Also there seems to be aspects of clarity and presence, at > least in daily life. So what is going on with sammasamadhi, in the > moment? > > Larry > -------------------- Dear Larry Samma-samadhi, right concentration, is one of the factors of the eightfold path. It focuses on the object – either a nama or a rupa. At the same time samma –sati, right mindfulness, does its work too,and samma-sankapa, (translated somewhat misleadingly as right thinking) touches the object and samma-ditthi, right insight, understands it. Samma-vayama, right effort, the energy for understanding is also present. The Atthasalini, commentary to the Dhammasangani, explains that usually while developing the path the other path factors of right livelihood, right action and right speech are not present or at most one of them is present. But that at the moment of experiencing nibbana all factors are present. As samma-ditthi, panna, insight, develops also samma-samadhi develops and at the brief moment when enlightenment occurs samma-samadhi has strength comparable to the level of the first stage of jhana (even for a sukkha vipassaka); a major development. But this jhana is said to be unlike the mundane jhanas. We know that ekkaggata cetasika, (samadhi)concentration,arises together with kusala or akusala cittas (unwholesome or wholesome consciousness) It is affected , conditioned, by the other cetasikas and by the citta that arises at the same time, therefore there must be some difference between the ekkagata cetasikas. Thus in daily life there are times when samadhi is weak and times when it is strong - but rarely is it samma-samadhi. I think what is important is to know this moment:Whether samadhi is weak or strong- if there is samma-ditthi then whatever degree of samadhi is present will be of the right kind. Robertk 23803 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Larry (and All) See also the useful examples at Vism XIV, 84 which have been cited before on the list and which we'll be coming to shortly in your current series. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Icarvs, ... > Here is a note from the editors of "A Comprehensive > Manual of Abhidhamma": > > p.36: The multisignificant word 'sankhaara' is used here in a sense > specific to the Abhidhamma to mean prompting, instigation, > inducement > (payoga), or the application of an expedient (upaaya).This > prompting may > be imposed by others, or it may originate from within oneself; the > means > employed may be bodily, verbal, or purely mental. 23804 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi Larry (Jon, Mike & All), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for your clarification on nirodha samapatti: that only > nonreturners and arahants can practice it. Good job. ..... XX111, 28 "Because the greed based on the cords of sense desire, which is an obstacle to concentration is unabandoned in them (i.e sotapanna, sakadagami). It is because that is not abandoned in them that the serenity power is not perfected. Since it is not perfected they are not, owing to want of power, able to attain the attainment of cessation, which has to be attained by two powers. But it is abandoned in the non-returner and so his power is perfected. Since his power is perfected he is able to attain it. Hence the Blessed One said: 'Profitable (consciousness) of the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception in one emerging from cessation is a condition, as proximity condition, for the attainment of fruition' (Ptn 1, 159). For this is said in the Great Book of the Patthana with reference only to non-returners' emerging from cessation." You may also like to review these posts in U.P.(Nina's translations and notes on the Foundation letters) which discuss all these difficult areas of various attainments, including nirodha samapatti and just who can attain what. ***** Fruition Attainment (phala-samaapatti) 18141, 18204, 18317, 18453, 18583 ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 23805 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:34am Subject: Vism. EngPali XIV, 2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 2. What is understanding? Understanding (pa~n~naa) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplidsh neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. 2. tatrida.m vissajjana.m, kaa pa~n~naati pa~n~naa bahuvidhaa naanappakaaraa. ta.m sabba.m vibhaavayitu.m aarabbhamaana.m vissajjana.m adhippeta~nceva attha.m na saadheyya, uttari ca vikkhepaaya sa.mvatteyya, tasmaa idha adhippetameva sandhaaya vadaama. kusalacittasampayutta.m vipassanaa~naa.na.m pa~n~naa. 23806 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Hi Icaro/Icarus;-), (Larry, Nina & All), Your enthusiasm for the Abhidhamma and the detail you’re supplying is a real asset here (as far as I’m concerned - you’ll note that responses can vary quite a lot ;-). You gave a very good set of details in your post 23775 explaining sasankharika-citta (prompted) and asankharika-citta (unprompted consciousness). I have to also thank you in another post for indirectly pointing out an error in a post of mine to Larry. I had mentioned that I wasn’t aware of prompted/unprompted being used to describe vipaka (result) cittas. I should have checked with you first;-) --- icaro franca wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Only to add, these combinations form: > The Eight Great Resultants - Attha Kamavicara Vipaka > Cittani > 4) 39 One consciousness, unprompted, accompanied with > pleasure, and connected with knowledge. ...... Thank you for this. When referring to vipaka cittas, I understand the ‘prompted’ and ‘unprompted’ to refer to the kind of kamma which the vipaka results from. In other words, if it was sasankharika-citta leading to kamma patha, then sasankharika vipaka will result. Starting with the 8 patisandhi(birth)cittas which result from sense-sphere kusala (wholesome) kammas, four are sasankharikam (resulting from ‘prompted’ kusala cittas and four are asankharikam (resulting from ‘unprompted’ cittas. You’ve helped me reflect on this detail. Larry, as Icaro and Jon have indicated, we’ll come to more detail in Vism XIV, 84f on prompted/unprompted cittas. You’ve asked some other good qus on this. I’ve never quite worked out the fine line. Sometimes it seems we act for no reason (unprompted) when in fact there must have been some reflection or something heard on TV or whatever. Like you suggest, it seems to me that the prompting could be considered as a kind of natural decisive condition (which is a very broad condition) in many/most cases. You ask why ‘promptedness’ isn’t one of the 24 conditions, but I think it would be covered by this one and others like object condition perhaps - eg tasting something bad and then speaking harshly to whoever is near - the object prompts the harsh speech or acts as one condition. I’m not really sure without checking here whether this would count - maybe Nina or Icaro could give their opinion or further references.If the harsh speech is unprompted, it’s said in the texts to be stronger or more intense, all other factors being equal. Keep up the good posts, Metta, Sarah p.s large numbers of Hong Kongers are camping out in very hot weather,days in advance of ticket sales for Real Madrid - Ronaldo and co will get a BIG welcome here;-) ====== 23807 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: Right Effort Hi Mike, Thanks for stepping in with these totally appropriate quotes. I think Victor and I had reached a stage where we both felt we were being accused of misrepresenting (slandering), the Tathagata. When we overcome the tendency to take offence, we see that there is an important issue involved. The true Dhamma is not going to be around forever; any small part we can play in extending it's lifespan will be a great achievement. Kind regards, Ken --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Victor (and Ken), > > Hope you don't mind my butting in: > > > > As I understand it, there are (conventional*) teachings whose meaning must > be inferred and (ultimate*) teachings whose meaning is fully drawn out. I > think that to say that all teaching must be accepted at face value is > contrary to the Dhamma (no offense intended to anyone). > > "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a > discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has > already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning > has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. > These are two who slander the Tathagata." > > 23808 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Victor (& Icaro), --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Now, we have agreed that the term "desire" is to be understood in > its context. Desire for the senses is a mental defilement, and that > desire is to be eradicated. However, there is this desire that is > to be developed as one of the four bases of power (iddhi), namely, > desire, persistence (effort), intent (will), and discrimination (the > discriminating mind). Particularly regarding desire as a base of > power, Tan Thanissaro Bhikkhu's explained: > > > We should note here that desire in this case means desire directed > toward the goal of the practice. This desire does not count as > craving, which as a cause of stress is directed at further states of > becoming in the round of rebirth. > * > > Thank you for your explanation. I would be interested to discuss > the topic on desire, particularly as a base of power, and the topic > on the four bases of power in general. ..... Ok, I discussed a little about the iddhi-padas (Bases of Success) and including chanda (desire/wish-to-do) in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19412.html The iddhi-padas, the indriyas (spiritual faculties), balas (powers) and so on are all included in the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas (dhammas pertaining to enlightenment). The factors included only become Bases of Success, Powers, Spiritual Faculties and so on when panna (wisdom) has been developed. The four iddhi-padas depend on the five indriyas of saddha (confidence), viriya (energy - the 4 padhanas), sati (mindfulness), samadhi (right concentration) and panna (wisdom). In other words satipatthana has to be developed before chanda and the other factors can be considered as iddhi-padas as I understand. As friends often say here, we start where we are. When there is desire ‘directed toward the goal of the practice’ it takes awareness and panna to know whether these are really wholesome cittas, accompanied by kusala chanda or whether it is yet another subtle (or often not so subtle) kind of attachment. Is there any minding if there is no progress? Is there any detachment at these moments of desire? Like Nina said to Larry on the ‘piti (joy)’ thread, in my case, when I have any thoughts about nibbana or goals along the way, nearly always it’s unskilful thinking revolved around ‘me’, rather than the understanding with detachment of presently arising phenomena which is essential for any higher understanding to grow in any case. So right now, Victor, would you say that ‘desire directed to the goal’ of your practice is wholesome or unwholesome? Maybe, right now, because we’re reflecting and considering these points, there may be wise consideration and kusala cittas. However, I think that the lobha --which can be just a tad of yearning-- usually sneaks in very quickly. What do you think? Btw, Icaro, I was glad you joined in this thread before, (23642) but I couldn’t understand some of your points and I think there may have been a typo here: .... Sarah wrote: > > However, whenever they(cittas with chanda) arise they are one of these > > at the time, rather > > than ‘neutral’. I don’t think we can just say that > > this nature or jati is > > determined by the object either. > Icaro wrote: > There are four types of Arupajhana (Functional > consciousness): at first three kinds:pleasurable, > painful, and that which is neither pleasurable nor > painful. Or, again, it is five-fold, namely, > happiness, pain, pleasure, displeasure, and > indifference or equanimity. Of all them,the resultant > body-consciousness (moral, in opposition of immoral > resultant)is the only one accompanied by happiness. > .... I don’t think you mean to be referring to arupajhana but I’ll let you look and maybe clarify. Victor, I also wished to refer you to a chapter in ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’The factors Leading to Enlightenment’. I was unable to access it here or in the Files section. Maybe you or RobK can try and give a link: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ I’d be happy to continue this useful (imho) discussion, so let me know what you think and about your present desires, Victor. With metta, Sarah ====== 23809 From: rahula_80 Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:59am Subject: Bond Hi, Can anyone tell me the source of this quote: "Monks, now you and I are free from human and divine bondages" See http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhism_and_the_free_thinkers.htm Thanks, Rahula 23810 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi Peter, --- peterdac4298 wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > Thanks for your words of support, most appreciated indeed. I am > gradually getting acclimatized and settling in. I am managing to access > > dsg more frequently now that I'm more organized. .... Must be a good move and a good settling in then;-) Do you use an internet cafe in Ubud or where/ ..... >The posts are most > inspiring, just the thing I need right now. My reading is more focused > on Vinaya during this time, but hope to include more Dhammic material > in the not too distant future. .... As far as I'm concerned, the Vinaya is very Dhammic. I know you are already very familiar with the Vinaya having ordained before. I think we'd all be interested to hear any aspects that are of particular consideration or meaning this time, if you don't mind sharing. Which texts do you use? If you give any references, Nina, myself or others may be able to help elaborate or give quotes. ..... >Have just read about Bob Hope, an > inspiration for Buddhists as much as everyone else. Generosity seems > to breed its own kind of talent. .... When I read your post I hadn't heard any news and I thought 'there's peter out in the sticks, more in touch with world events than I am in the centre of this buzzing city';-) Are you spending much time at the temple? Any reflections or comment appreciated? Metta, Sarah ====== 23811 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Robert, One thing struck me in your recent comments on samma-samadhi. You wrote: R: "[Samma-samadhi] focuses on the object -- either a nama or a rupa." --> Dan: Didn't Buddha often speak of jhana as samma-samadhi? And isn't the object in jhana a concept (counterpart sign in rupajhana, an idea like "space is infinite" in arupajhana, and a being in brahmavihara)? If so, then the object of samma-samadhi needn't be a nama or rupa. On the other hand, I'd agree that in a moment of satipatthana, the samadhi is samma-samadhi and the object is a nama or rupa. The object, then, would not be a reliable indicator as to whether the samadhi is samma or miccha. Do you have a scriptural reference that discusses the object of samma-samadhi as a nama or rupa? Dan 23812 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:08am Subject: Re: Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi Steve, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi All > There seems to be a few translations of the > Abhidhammatthasangaha. Is there any particular translation anyone > could recommend? I am considering buying one of these 3> > > The Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics > of Abhidhamma, > tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin, 2002 > Translation of the Abhidhammatthasa.ngaha and > Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii > > Compendium of Philosophy, > tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1910, 1979, 1995 > Translation of Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha. > > "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": by Bhikkhu Bodhi and U Rewata > Dhamma. Larry you mentioned this one has a commentary, is it an > accepted pali commentary or a com. by Bhikkhu Bodhi/U Rewata Dhamma? > > > At the moment I'm leaning towards the Wijeratne/Gethin one, because > of the added translation of a Pali commentary. Does anyone have any > info on this commentary "Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii". I cant seem to > find it on the Chattha Sangayana CD. > I have all three. I also have a translation by Ven. Narada. If you are only going to get one, I suggest the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation. The Ven. Narada version used to be the standard until the Bhikkhu Bodhi version came out. The best part of the PTS version (S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids) is the lengthy introductory essay. The recently translated Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii is not bad but I get the impression that Bhikkhu Bodhi included the best bits in his comments, so I did not get the feeling that it added a lot as compared to Bhikkhu Bodhi's version. Metta, Rob M :-) 23813 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] wrong path factors Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > op 28-07-2003 01:15 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > The last three path factors > > from my > >> previous message are not cetasikas: > >> - wrong speech (miccha-vaca) > >> - wrong bodily action (miccha-kammanta) > >> - wrong livelihood (miccha-ajiva) > >> These last three can be considered to be path factors, but they > > are not > >> conditioning states of path condition." > N: Mny different akusala cittas accompanied by akusala cetasikas are > involved with these three. Thus, they are not three distinct dhammas and as > such they are not conditioning factors. Thanks, this makes sense to me. Metta, Rob M :-) 23814 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:28am Subject: Re: Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi Jim, Larry and Rob Thanks for the replies. Larry the "Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma, tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin" is available from PTS. BTW for anyone interested there is a translation with the Pali and comments of the Abhidhammatthasangaha by Narada Thera at> http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/sangaha.htm Thanks Steve 23815 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Dear Sarah: "Btw, Icaro, I was glad you joined in this thread > before, (23642) but I > couldn’t understand some of your points and I think > there may have been a > typo here:" ----------------------------------------------------- Right on, Sarah! I have here many notes and lists I´ve concocted during all my years of Abhidhamma´s studies. Someday I´ll put all this mess at a proper order! ----------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "I don’t think you mean to be referring to arupajhana > but I’ll let you look > and maybe clarify." ----------------------------------------------------- You see, I´ve put my list of formless jhanas near my summary of feelings...the Arupajhanas are (without Typo!): Functional Jhana consciousness dwelling on the 'Infinity of Space'. Funcional Jhana consciousness dwelling on the 'Infinity of Mind'. Functional Jhana consciousness dwelling on 'Nothingness'. Functional Jhana consciousness wherein 'perception neither is or is not'. So, as I usually say, corrections are welcome! Metta, Ícarvs ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23816 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhammatthasangaha Steve I have both the STA and CMA (the first and third in your list), but the STA is relatively new and I haven't really made much use of it yet. The CMA is a very useful book to have. A lot of thought has gone into the arrangement of material and its presentation, and as a result it makes the main work (the A-S) very accessible. It has lots of charts and a good index and glossary. Each section of the A-S is followed by explanatory material that is drawn from the 2 main commentaries, although it is not always a direct translation of the commentaries. The STA is a straight translation of the main work and commentary, with each section of the main work followed by the appropriate section of the commentary. Since the commentary in the STA is a straight translation, this is probably the more authoritative version of the two. However, given the choice of only 1, I would choose the CMA because I find it very browsable and user-friendly in a way that the STA is not, but this is of course a purely personal preference. Ideally, one needs to have both, as it is such a useful text! Jon --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi All > There seems to be a few translations of the > Abhidhammatthasangaha. Is there any particular translation anyone > could recommend? I am considering buying one of these 3> > > The Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the > Topics of Abhidhamma, > tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin, 2002 > Translation of the Abhidhammatthasa.ngaha and > Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii > > Compendium of Philosophy, > tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1910, 1979, 1995 > Translation of Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha. > > "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": by Bhikkhu Bodhi and U > Rewata Dhamma. 23817 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Larry: Larry: "Is this your name, "Icarvs"? Well done on explaining > "prompted and > unprompted". Hi Larry! Ícaro is my real name. "Ícarvs" is only to match the spelling with the English´s, with the fancy "v"...heheh!!! ------------------------------------------------------ Larry:"Here is a note from the editors of "A > Comprehensive Manual > of Abhidhamma": > > p.36: The multisignificant word 'sankhaara' is used > here in a sense > specific to the Abhidhamma to mean prompting, > instigation, inducement > (payoga), or the application of an expedient > (upaaya).This prompting may > be imposed by others, or it may originate from > within oneself; the means > employed may be bodily, verbal, or purely mental. > > > This is a very handy book which you may be > interested in buying some > time." ------------------------------------------------------ I´ve picked up the Introduction of this excellent book at Internet. Very good indeed! ------------------------------------------------------- Larry: "It was written by Acariya Anuruddha with the > title "Abhidhammattha > Sangaha" and is a very concise exposition of > abhidhamma. This volume, "A > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" is a translation > with commentary by > U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi.2 ------------------------------------------------------- I will give it a try, Larry... but first I ought to put order in all my messy notes and handwritings about The Abhidhamma!!! Metta, Ícarvs (or Ícaro, if you like it) ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23818 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Sarah: "Your enthusiasm for the Abhidhamma and the detail > you’re supplying is a > real asset here (as far as I’m concerned - you’ll > note that responses can > vary quite a lot ;-)." ------------------------------------------------------ Well, thanks!!! I am being working on Abhidhamma´s texts (translated and on original if is possible) for some years...but sometimes there are so many annotations, handwrittings, notes, charts, schemes that the result here at my gabinet really doesn´t clarify minds of any sort!!! But, as I usually say to Good Larry, I try to make it without doubts! ------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: " You gave a very good set of details in your post > 23775 explaining > sasankharika-citta (prompted) and asankharika-citta > (unprompted > consciousness). > > I have to also thank you in another post for > indirectly pointing out an > error in a post of mine to Larry. I had mentioned > that I wasn’t aware of > prompted/unprompted being used to describe vipaka > (result) cittas. I > should have checked with you first;-)" ------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Again! --------------------------------------------- > > --- icaro franca wrote: > > > ----------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "Thank you for this. When referring to vipaka cittas, > I understand the > ‘prompted’ and ‘unprompted’ to refer to the kind of > kamma which the vipaka > results from. In other words, if it was > sasankharika-citta leading to > kamma patha, then sasankharika vipaka will result. > Starting with the 8 > patisandhi(birth)cittas which result from > sense-sphere kusala (wholesome) > kammas, four are sasankharikam (resulting from > ‘prompted’ kusala cittas > and four are asankharikam (resulting from > ‘unprompted’ cittas. You’ve > helped me reflect on this detail." ------------------------------------------------------- Well, let me see my notes about it: "All good acts are done by one of the first eight Cittas, their effects are the eight great resultant Cittas. The eight Ahetuks Vipaka Cittas are also effects of Kusala Cittas. There are sixteen Vipaka Cittas corresponding to eight Kusala Cittas. Of the twelve Akusala Cittas there are only seven Ahetuka Vipaka Cittas." I hope that´s right!! Metta, Ícaro ( without the fancy v !!!) > > Larry, as Icaro and Jon have indicated, we’ll come > to more detail in Vism > XIV, 84f on prompted/unprompted cittas. You’ve asked > some other good qus > on this. I’ve never quite worked out the fine line. > Sometimes it seems we > act for no reason (unprompted) when in fact there > must have been some > reflection or something heard on TV or whatever. > Like you suggest, it > seems to me that the prompting could be considered > as a kind of natural > decisive condition (which is a very broad condition) > in many/most cases. > You ask why ‘promptedness’ isn’t one of the 24 > conditions, but I think it > would be covered by this one and others like object > condition perhaps - eg > tasting something bad and then speaking harshly to > whoever is near - the > object prompts the harsh speech or acts as one > condition. I’m not really > sure without checking here whether this would count > - maybe Nina or Icaro > could give their opinion or further references.If > the harsh speech is > unprompted, it’s said in the texts to be stronger or > more intense, all > other factors being equal. > > Keep up the good posts, > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s large numbers of Hong Kongers are camping out in > very hot weather,days > in advance of ticket sales for Real Madrid - Ronaldo > and co will get a BIG > welcome here;-) > ====== ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23819 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi All, --- Sarah wrote: > Must be a good move and a good settling in then;-) Do you use an > internet > cafe in Ubud or where/ > ..... Oops! Unless Peter's taking a Bali break, I got my geography mixed up - should be Udon (or was it Ubon.....)- both in Thailand. Metta, Sarah ======= 23820 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Robert, ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration > At the same time samma-sati, right mindfulness, does its work too, and samma- > sankapa, (translated somewhat misleadingly as right thinking) touches the object > and samma-ditthi, right insight, understands it. Do you prefer 'intention' or 'purpose' to 'thought' or 'thinking' for sankappa? Thanks, mike 23821 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi Sarah (and all), Speaking of Bali, I am off to Bali for a week starting tomorrow, so please don't get angry at me if I don't reply to your messages for a while. The following week, I will be in Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore and Kuala Lumpur (more time on airplanes than on the ground). Sarah, the week of the 11th I will only be in HK for just more than a day, so we won't have a chance to get together. I will be back in HK the following week, so perhaps we can get together then. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi All, > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Must be a good move and a good settling in then;-) Do you use an > > internet > > cafe in Ubud or where/ > > ..... > > Oops! Unless Peter's taking a Bali break, I got my geography mixed up - > should be Udon (or was it Ubon.....)- both in Thailand. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 23822 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Icaro, Thx for the choice - as this is simpler to type, I’ll think I’ll stick to it now, following the majority;-)(I just heard about Icarus2 crossing the English channel....) --- icaro franca wrote: > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Right on, Sarah! > I have here many notes and lists I´ve concocted > during all my years of Abhidhamma´s studies. Someday > I´ll put all this mess at a proper order! > > ----------------------------------------------------- .... We knew you weren’t so new to Abhidhamma;-) ..... ----------------------------------------------------- > > You see, I´ve put my list of formless jhanas near my > summary of feelings...the Arupajhanas are (without > Typo!): ..... Ah! The mixing up of lists - easy to do, like mixing up names. BUT, I still don’t understand what arupajhanas, clearly listed by you below, has to do with ‘donkeys and desire’, i.e. wholesome and unwholesome chanda. Perhaps it was meant as an interesting diversion;-) Good stuff anyway and look forward to all the other lists, now we know to keep an eye out for any mix-ups;-) Metta, Sarah ====== > Functional Jhana consciousness dwelling on the > 'Infinity of Space'. > Funcional Jhana consciousness dwelling on the > 'Infinity of Mind'. > Functional Jhana consciousness dwelling on > 'Nothingness'. > Functional Jhana consciousness wherein 'perception > neither is or is not'. 23823 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Off to Thailand Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Sarah (and all), > > Speaking of Bali, I am off to Bali for a week starting tomorrow, so > please don't get angry at me if I don't reply to your messages for a > while. The following week, I will be in Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore > and Kuala Lumpur (more time on airplanes than on the ground). ..... And if you have a chance to visit Ubud, it's a delightful spot. I'm very behind myself on one or two tricky posts myself. As a rule, after I’ve posted I just forget it and move on to the next one. I never mind(or very seldom, I think) whether someone replies or not, though I’m always very glad to see any response to any post (to mine or others’ just as much), however belated. No need to feel any burden or obligation as Howard would say;-) ..... > Sarah, the week of the 11th I will only be in HK for just more than > a day, so we won't have a chance to get together. I will be back in > HK the following week, so perhaps we can get together then. ..... That sounds good - I’ll make a note in my diary. Seems like a long time. I’m not teaching at the moment, so I can arrive first and do the looking out for you;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Paul, let me know off-list if you’ll be around and we can all coordinate. ======================= 23824 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:31am Subject: Four Bases of Power Hi Sarah, Thank you for your comments. Regarding developing the bases of power, here is a passage from the discourse I find relevant: And what is the development of the base of power? There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. This is called the development of the base of power. And what is the path of practice leading to the development of the base of power? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the development of the base of power. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html#64 This is how I see it: Through developing the noble eightfold path, one develops the base of power, which in turn further the the development of the noble eightfold path. In fact, I see that the development of the four bases of power and the development of the noble eightfold path go in tandem: § 63. Monks, whoever neglects these four bases of power neglects the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Whoever undertakes these four bases of power undertakes the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Which four? There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. Whoever neglects these four bases of power neglects the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Whoever undertakes these four bases of power undertakes the noble path going to the right ending of stress. -- SN LI.2 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html I think that both of us agree that the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion is different from sensual desire and greed. I would say that the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrication of exertion is wholesome. I would be interested in discussing the four bases of power. I believe this discussion would be useful. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor (& Icaro), > [snip] > Ok, I discussed a little about the iddhi-padas (Bases of Success) and > including chanda (desire/wish-to-do) in this post: > > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19412.html > The iddhi-padas, the indriyas (spiritual faculties), balas (powers) and so > on are all included in the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas (dhammas pertaining to > enlightenment). The factors included only become Bases of Success, Powers, > Spiritual Faculties and so on when panna (wisdom) has been developed. The > four iddhi-padas depend on the five indriyas of saddha (confidence), > viriya (energy - the 4 padhanas), sati (mindfulness), samadhi (right > concentration) and panna (wisdom). In other words satipatthana has to be > developed before chanda and the other factors can be considered as > iddhi-padas as I understand. > [snip] > > So right now, Victor, would you say that `desire directed to the goal' of > your practice is wholesome or unwholesome? Maybe, right now, because we're > reflecting and considering these points, there may be wise consideration > and kusala cittas. However, I think that the lobha --which can be just a > tad of yearning-- usually sneaks in very quickly. What do you think? > [snip] > > Victor, I also wished to refer you to a chapter in `Survey of Paramattha > Dhammas'The factors Leading to Enlightenment'. I was unable to access it > here or in the Files section. Maybe you or RobK can try and give a link: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > > I'd be happy to continue this useful (imho) discussion, so let me know > what you think and about your present desires, Victor. > > With metta, > > Sarah 23825 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhammatthasangaha Hi Steve, op 31-07-2003 04:05 schreef bodhi2500 op seisen_@h...: > > The Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the Topics > of Abhidhamma, > tr. R.P. Wijeratne & Rupert Gethin, 2002 > Translation of the Abhidhammatthasa.ngaha and > Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii N: I like this one, it has a good index, and a Pali glossary, but not the Pali text. The Commentary is very useful.They translate cetasikas as mentalities, and this sounds strange. It is O.k. so long as we know the Pali term. For the Pali of Abhidhammattha-sa.ngaha it is good to have Ven. Narada's translation as well. I also have the Compendium of Philosophy, tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids Nina. 23826 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 10:51am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma 1. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 19:42:05 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma 1. Jim has done the exploration of the meanings of dhamma and Dimitri has collected excellent texts. I do not like this excellent work to sink into oblivion. I shall try to summarize the meanings and translate some of this material, a little at a time. Meanings of Dhamma 1 To recapitulate: the first meaning is gu.na, virtue or good quality. In different commentaries this is explained as kusala kamma different from akusala kamma. Kusala kamma is denoted as dhamma and akusala kamma is denoted as adhamma. We read in the Atthasaalinii, 38: "Na hi dhammo adhammo ca, ubho samavipaakino; dhamma, adhamma bear no equal fruit: adhammo niraya.m neti, dhammo paapeti suggatin"ti. adhamma leads to hell, dhamma causes one to reach heaven. (theragaa. 304; jaa. 1.15.386)- The second meaning given of dhamma is pariyatti: the wording of the teachings as contained in the Tipitaka. We read in the "Dhammapada Atthakataa 1.22: Dhamma.m vo, bhikkhave, desessaami aadikalyaa.nan"ti (ma. ni. 3.420) aya.m desanaadhammo naama. I shall teach you, monks, Dhamma that is beautiful in the beginning (middle and end), this is the dhamma of teaching. "Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacce kulaputtaa dhamma.m pariyaapu.nanti sutta.m geyyan"ti (ma. ni. 1.239) Here, monks, some men of a good family learn thoroughly the dhamma: sutta, geyya, etc. aya.m pariyattidhammo naama. This is the dhamma which is the wording of the teachings. My remarks:The word of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Vinaya as taught by him, consists of nine divisions which are: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakarana, Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta and Vedalla. See the ³Expositor², Atthasaalinii, Introductory Discourse, 26. The teachings as compiled (not yet written) literature are thus enumerated in the scriptures as nine divisions, for example in the ³Middle Length Sayings² I, no. 22. Sutta includes all Discourses, such as the ³Mangala sutta² (²Good Omen Discourse ³, Minor Readings, V), and also the Vinaya Pitaka and the Niddesa. In this classification the Vinaya is in the section of Sutta. The ³Atthasaalinaa² mentions in this section on Sutta the Sutta-Vibhanga and Parivaara, which belong to the Vinaya. Geyya includes all suttas with verses (gaathaa), such as the Sagaathaa-vagga of the Sa.myutta Nikaaya or ³Kindred Sayings². Veyyaakarana or ³Exposition² includes the Abhidhamma Pi.taka, the suttas without verses, and the words of the Buddha which are not included in the other eight divisions. Gaathaa or ³Verses², include the Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Therígaathaa (Psalms of the Brothers and Sisters) and those parts of the Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta and entirely in verse. Udaana or ³Verses of Uplift² include eightytwo suttas connected with verses recited by the Buddha, inspired by knowledge and joy. Itivuttaka or ³As it was said² includes hundred and ten suttas beginning with ³Thus it was said by the Blessed One² Jaataka or Birth Stories include fivehundred and fifty stories of the past lives of the Buddha and his disciples, beginning with the ³Apannaka Jaataka². Abbhuta, ³Marvellous², includes suttas connected with wonderful and marvellous things (dhammas with extraordinary qualities, which are amazing). Vedalla includes suttas with questions and answers which have as result understanding and delight, such as the ³Cullavedallasutta². ******** Nina. 23827 From: suzakico Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:04am Subject: Thank you, Nina!!! Having gone through your posts, I made my personal comments in this file: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/nina.html (I thought of posting the entire file here, but thought that it may be too big.) If you can take a look at it and provide me with any feedback in any manner, I would appreciate it very much. Perhaps, it will clarify more about what abhidhamma and its daily practice is all about. A little note here is that I did not go through survey or daily life books much more deeply at this moment as I wanted to focus to learn from your responses to my questions. Again, thank you for your efforts! Arigatou gozaimasu! Good day! Kio 23828 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 0:25pm Subject: Re: concentration Hi Nori, Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insight on concentration. I very much agree. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi, > > I would just like to share my thoughts on concentration since I [snip] > > This is the benefit of concentration. > > metta, > nori 23829 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Robert, > One thing struck me in your recent comments on samma-samadhi. You > wrote: > > R: "[Samma-samadhi] focuses on the object -- either a nama or a rupa." > > --> Dan: Didn't Buddha often speak of jhana as samma-samadhi? And > isn't the object in jhana a concept (counterpart sign in rupajhana, > an idea like "space is infinite" in arupajhana, and a being in > brahmavihara)? If so, then the object of samma-samadhi needn't be a > nama or rupa. > > On the other hand, I'd agree that in a moment of satipatthana, the > samadhi is samma-samadhi and the object is a nama or rupa. > > The object, then, would not be a reliable indicator as to whether the > samadhi is samma or miccha. Do you have a scriptural reference that > discusses the object of samma-samadhi as a nama or rupa? __________ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Robert, > One thing struck me in your recent comments on samma-samadhi. You > wrote: > > R: "[Samma-samadhi] focuses on the object -- either a nama or a rupa." > > --> Dan: Didn't Buddha often speak of jhana as samma-samadhi? And > isn't the object in jhana a concept (counterpart sign in rupajhana, > an idea like "space is infinite" in arupajhana, and a being in > brahmavihara)? If so, then the object of samma-samadhi needn't be a > nama or rupa. > > On the other hand, I'd agree that in a moment of satipatthana, the > samadhi is samma-samadhi and the object is a nama or rupa. > > The object, then, would not be a reliable indicator as to whether the > samadhi is samma or miccha. Do you have a scriptural reference that > discusses the object of samma-samadhi as a nama or rupa? _________________ Dear Dan, Always good to have you around the list. My last post was a bit abbreviated. Larry asked about samma-samadhi as it applies to satipatthana in daily life; so in the letter I was referring only to the development of vipassana, not mundane jhana. Of course as you indicate there are 2 types of samma-samadhi in the texts: and the object of mundane jhana is not nama or rupa. http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html The samadhi sutta explains different types of samma-samadhi, the last two types having the aggregates (nama and rupa) as object. The commentaries also have much. For example: The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (mundane jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc]; and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote RobertK 23830 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Dear Sarah: Sarah:"Thx for the choice - as this is simpler to type, > I’ll think I’ll stick to > it now, following the majority;-)(I just heard about > Icarus2 crossing the > English channel....)" ----------------------------------------------------- heheheh!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "BUT, I still don’t understand what arupajhanas, > clearly listed by you > below, has to do with ‘donkeys and desire’, i.e. > wholesome and unwholesome > chanda. Perhaps it was meant as an interesting > diversion;-)" ---------------------------------------------------- Sarah, you must take this only as a personal opinion of mine: Arupajhanas have got three aspects, or attributes, or modes of expression (!): a)Formless sphere Moral Consciousness (Javanas), b)Formless sphere Resultant Consciousness (Patisandhi, Bhavanga, Cuti), c)Formless sphere Functional Consciousness (Javanas, too!). When one speaks of wholesome or unwholesome chanda, it´s a mental factor or a moral quality of which is determined by the character of the volition (cetana) associated therewith.So, such statements are below the moral constraints and the respective formless Arupajhanas have got a "tinge" (if this could be possible...)of it: Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on the 'Infinity of Space'. Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on the 'Infinity of Mind'. Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on 'Nothingness'. Moral Jhana consciousness wherein 'perception neither is or is not'. Exactly the same with the bhavanga and Javana Arupajhanas, but dealing with or assuming cetana´s moral conotations. As I´ve said before, that´s only my opinion. Corrections and suggestions are welcome!!! Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23831 From: Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Nori and Robert, Thanks for your thoughts on concentration. Any ideas on why concentration is called tranquility? "Tranquility" doesn't seem to be part of the official definition of concentration. Larry 23832 From: Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Nina: "N: . I prefer to keep to the definitions in the Commentaries." Hi Nina, What line is this a commentary to? Is there more to it? What is the Pali for "non-perplexity"? What commentary is it? What is a "good guide"? Larry 23833 From: g_sokol Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:34pm Subject: Hi! I'm Gene Sokol Dear Dhamma Friends My name is Gene Sokol. I've been interested in Buddhism ever since I took a course in it and decided to major in religion at the University of Georgia back in the '80's. I studied the major religions, but Buddhism impressed me the most with its depth of study in & about the human mind. I'm thankful to have stumbled upon this group and look forward to learning and sharing with all involved. The Dhamma is of great interest to me because I want to understand more fully the workings of the mind & the causation/cessation of thought-moments. Thank you for allowing me to join this group! 23834 From: Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XI, 120 Benefits of Concentration (was, Vism. XIV, 1) Hi Sarah, Thanks for the additional info on nirodha samapatti. Larry 23835 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Very nice, Robert. Thanks. Dan > Dear Dan, > Always good to have you around the list. My last post was a bit > abbreviated. Larry asked about samma-samadhi as it applies to > satipatthana in daily life; so in the letter I was referring only to > the development of vipassana, not mundane jhana. > Of course as you indicate there are 2 types of samma-samadhi in the > texts: and the object of mundane jhana is not nama or rupa. > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html > The samadhi sutta explains different types of samma-samadhi, the > last two types having the aggregates (nama and rupa) as object. > > The commentaries also have much. For example: > The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." > The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > meditative absorptions" > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments > (mundane jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in > concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or > metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc]; > and the second means 'insight > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > three characteristics'"endquote > RobertK 23836 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! Kio I hope you don't mind if I make a suggestion here. --- suzakico wrote: > Having gone through your posts, I made my personal comments in this > file: > http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/nina.html > (I thought of posting the entire file here, but thought that it may > be too big.) If the file is too big you could divide it into smaller files and post them separately. That would make it easier for Nina to reply, and it would also allow other members to read your comments (and to join in by responding if they wish). Remember, there is no need to include the whole of Nina's original post when you reply; just the sentence or two that you are commenting on each time (it makes the post shorter, and it also makes it easier for others to read/browse through the reply.) Looking forward to seeing your comments on the list :-)) Jon 23837 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions Dear Icaro and Sarah, As Icaro put it, it is very careful and right. I discussed this once with A. Sujin, and I thought if the kusala kamma is unprompted it produces unprompted vipaka. We cannot say this, she explained. We cannot measure the strength of a particular kusala kamma. We cannot pinpoint these things. Topics Abh, p. 197:different teacher's opinions about prompted kamma and result etc. Icaro, are you of Dutch origin? Tot ziens, Nina. op 31-07-2003 14:23 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Well, let me see my notes about it: > "All good acts are done by one of the first eight > Cittas, their effects are the eight great resultant > Cittas. 23838 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] wrong path factors Dear Rob, Just another matter, occasion for anumodana. Mr. Wong Malaysia wrote, He appreciates Zolag web, started reading more, has a sincere interest in Abhidhamma. So you see that an article of yours helps people's interest. I told him of our membership of dsg, invited him to join. Anumodana, Nina. op 31-07-2003 13:09 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Thanks, this makes sense to me. > > 23839 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 0:54am Subject: Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply Dear Larry, Jim, Chris & All, I wrote to Bhikkhu Bodhi about the Visuddhimagga copyright point , Jim’s qu and a couple of other matters. I’d like to share the relevant parts of his response: Copyright ======= BB: “There is no need to worry about copyright since you are only using extracts for purpose of discussion. Thus all you need do is give the source reference.” Sutta Nipata Comy ================= JIM wrote 1.: “Suttanipaata-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 46-52 on the Khaggavisaa.nasutta. Theragaathaa-a.t.thakathaa, pp. 1-19 on the introductory verses. The passages contain a lot of valuable information about mahaabodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, and saavakabodhisattas. And there is a conversation between the Buddha and Ananda in the SnA passage about the time it takes for the first two types to become a buddha. ******* JIM wrote 2: “I don't think PTS would publish a translation unless it was the entire commentary. I thought that maybe BPS might have something in the way of translated extracts. It seems to me that these passages are hardly known in the English-speaking world. I have yet to study them in detail but from what I've read so far it's like a bodhisatta doctrine being laid out in quite an impressive way and a good response to some of those Mahayana critics. I think you will be familiar with some of the material eg. the 8 conditions needed to become a Mahaabodhisatta as in the Buddhava.msa, but there is also the 5 conditions for a paccekabodhisatta and 2 (adhikaara and chandataa) for the saavakabodhisatta. It would make for a worthwhile translation project sometime. **************** BB replies: “I have seen this passage and agree it would be interesting to read in translation. I don't think it is available anywhere in English. Perhaps if I can find some time I will try to translate it.” ========================================================== Sarah: I mentioned that many of us here were wishing him well with his various projects including the AN comy. Unfortunately, he continues to suffer from severe headaches at Bodhi monastery. He referred to these difficulties in an interview given just before we saw him in Hong Kong last year, but he asked me not to pass it round until it had been published as it now has. Christine, I’m sure you and others will enjoy reading it if you haven’t already: “Climbing to the Top of the Mountain” http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2002b/bhikkhu_bodhi.htm It is published in the American Buddhist journal "Insight," published by the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies. As B.Bodhi just mentioned to me, his headache condition “remains impervious to every means of treatment. It is a major obstacle to my work, teaching, and meditation, but it is likely nothing short of a miracle will reverse it.” It seems that the benefit of Dr Ma’s treatment was very short-lived too. I also received a letter today from a friend in Bangkok. whom several people know, who continues to have rounds of chemotherapy with strong side-effects for her cancerous condition. Although she’s so weak and unable to go out much, she continues to listen to Dhamma tapes and reflect wisely. As the Comy passage I quoted the other day said, we’ve had lifetime afer lifetime of being afflicted by various diseases and ailments, but very rare is the lifetime that we have an opportunity to read, hear, consider and follow the teachings of the Buddha. I also appreciated that with all their other preoccupations and health difficulties, both this friend and B.Bodhi had been concerned about us and others during SARS. It’s wonderful to hear examples of metta and kindness from people at these times. With metta, Sarah ====== 23840 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] prompted conditions > Dear Nina: Nina:"As Icaro put it, it is very careful and right. I discussed this once with A. > Sujin, and I thought if the kusala kamma is unprompted it produces > unprompted vipaka. We cannot say this, she explained. We cannot measure the > strength of a particular kusala kamma. We cannot pinpoint these things." ------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina, sometimes East and West agree in such philosophical remarks... in Heidegger´s works I´ve read that our concepts of Reality are a matter of "Zuhandenheit", or "To be near, close or ´at hand´": not a question of measure with instruments (human mind included), but much more a sensation of proximity between To Be and Not to Be. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Nina: "Icaro, are you of Dutch origin?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Heheh!!! Not at all. My father´s family came from Metz, France...but when I´ve travelled to Amsterdam in 1996,I bought a Berlitz´s Traveller Guide to Nederlands and I tried to speak a little. I could post a photo of mine here...but at the better one I am drinking with pleasure a glass of witte rum in a meeting of Star Trek fans!!! A defilement of the Path !!!!!! Prettig kennis met u te maken ! Metta, Ícaro 23841 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 5:10am Subject: DSG photo album Hi Icaro, --- icarofranca wrote: > .... I could post a photo of > mine here...but at the better one I am drinking with pleasure a glass > of witte rum in a meeting of Star Trek fans!!! A defilement of the > Path !!!!!! .... Please do post a photo or two in the DSG album (we won't look at what's in the glass;-)) -- then there'll be no chance of confusing you with Icarus 2. Go to the homepage and on the lefthand side click on photos: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup There are a few folders and one is marked ‘members’ - add your pic there (ask Christine, James or Kom if you get lost or need any help - James can even remove grey hairs or add muscles;-)) We’d be very glad if any other new or old members add pix here as well - also any of ‘Significant Others’ in the next album. Enjoy looking at the rest of us while you’re there. Metta, Sarah ======= 23842 From: robmoult Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 5:13am Subject: Donkeys and Desire (was Re: Anicca (Impermanence)/KenH) Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Sarah, you must take this only as a personal > opinion of mine: > Arupajhanas have got three aspects, or attributes, > or modes of expression (!): > a)Formless sphere Moral Consciousness (Javanas), > b)Formless sphere Resultant Consciousness > (Patisandhi, Bhavanga, Cuti), > c)Formless sphere Functional Consciousness > (Javanas, too!). > When one speaks of wholesome or unwholesome > chanda, it´s a mental factor or a moral quality of > which is determined by the character of the volition > (cetana) associated therewith.So, such statements are > below the moral constraints and the respective > formless Arupajhanas have got a "tinge" (if this could > be possible...)of it: > Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on the > 'Infinity of Space'. > Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on the > 'Infinity of Mind'. > Moral Jhana consciousness dwelling on > 'Nothingness'. > Moral Jhana consciousness wherein 'perception > neither is or is not'. > Exactly the same with the bhavanga and Javana > Arupajhanas, but dealing with or assuming cetana´s > moral conotations. > As I´ve said before, that´s only my opinion. > Corrections and suggestions are welcome!!! I've only got a few minutes before signing off for a week, but I wanted to let you know that I have been following your posts with interest. My understanding that it is the nature of the roots that determine the quality (kusala / akusala / rootless) of a citta. The cetasika has the function of organizing the associated cetasikas and when cetana arises in rooted cittas, cetana also has the function of creating kamma. The type of kamma created depends on the nature of the roots. A minor quibble with terminology, not sure if it impacts the thrust of your argument. I am looking forward to chatting more with you when I get back from vacation. Metta, Rob M :-) 23843 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG photo album Hi Sarah:" Please do post a photo or two in the DSG album (we > won't look at what's in > the glass;-)) -- then there'll be no chance of > confusing you with Icarus > 2." ------------------------------------------------------ heheheheheheh!!!! Right! I will do it !!! Metta, Ícaro > > Go to the homepage and on the lefthand side click on > photos: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup > > There are a few folders and one is marked ‘members’ > - add your pic there > (ask Christine, James or Kom if you get lost or need > any help - James can > even remove grey hairs or add muscles;-)) > > We’d be very glad if any other new or old members > add pix here as well - > also any of ‘Significant Others’ in the next album. > Enjoy looking at the > rest of us while you’re there. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23844 From: Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply Hi, sarah (and all) - In a message dated 8/1/03 3:55:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > The passages contain a lot of valuable information > about mahaabodhisattas, paccekabodhisattas, and > saavakabodhisattas. And there is a conversation between the Buddha and > Ananda in the SnA passage about the time it takes for the first two types > to become a buddha. > ========================= I must have missed the preceding posts pertaining to this. It is clear to me what mahaabodhisattas and paccekabodhisattas are, but I don't know what it would mean to be a saavakabodhisatta. Does it just mean someone who will become (or has vowed to become) an arahant, or does it mean something more? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23845 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 5:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Role of jhana (Dhammasangini) Jim Thanks very much for bringing up this interesting reference. I don't have any familiarity with this text, but I've had a quick look at the PTS translation ('Buddhist Psychological Ethics') and the commentary ('Atthasaalinii', also by BPS as 'The Expositor'), and I think your tentative interpretation is likely to be correct. A couple of preliminary observations. In Buddhist Psychological Ethics, the section on supramundane consciousness is dealt with in chapter 5 and this particular passage is in the section 'The First Path' (i.e., dealing with attainment of stream entry) under the heading 'The Twenty Great Methods' (viisati mahaanayaa -- a reference to jhana and the other 19). As you remark, the first section dealing with jhana is lengthy, but in remarks immediately following that section it is made clear that exactly the same detail also applies to the other 19 methods. In other words, apart from the order of arrangement, there is no distinction between the 20 'methods'. As regards the commentary, there is some relevant material at pp 318 and 319 of 'The Expositor'. As I read it, it is saying that the difference between the 20 methods is a matter of personal inclination. It also says, as regards the various classifications given in the main work under the section dealing with the 20 methods, "Thus the king of the Law has shown the First Path in classifying it by a thousand methods." Thanks again for the reference. I intend to have a closer look at the text. Others who are familiar with it (Nina, RobK, Sarah?) may be able to add more. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, ... > I'm not exactly sure what the connection is between mundane > concentration and insight but your comments on this caused me to > consider the role the jhaanas play in bringing about supramundane > path-consciousness. In the kusala section of the Dhammasangani > concerning the lokuttaracittas, the first big part of it involves > developing supramundane jhaana but when I got to section 358 it > goes > on to describe 19 other great methods in addition. eg. he develops > supramundane satipatthana... This whole section tells me that there > are other ways of attaining path-consciousness besides the jhaana > method. In other words, like the jhaana method these other methods > can also serve as a basis even though the path-consciousness is > automatically accompanied by the 1st jhaana. Do you think that many > of > these methods are descriptive of the way of a sukkhavipassaka? I'm > reading that it does and I'm wondering if you agree. There is > uncertainty with some of the methods such as supramundane samatha > (is it different from the jhaana method?). > > Best wishes, > Jim 23846 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply Hi Howard, When I used the term 'saavakabodhisattas' I was taking it from memory. But your post had me worried for moment thinking that the term might not be in the commentaries. I checked, and sure enough it is used but not often. It's not in the tipitaka, but is found in the atthakathas and tikas. If the Theragatha commentarial passage ever gets translated it will become clear who these bodhisattas are. Yes, they become the arahants that we are familiar with in the Tipitaka. In terms of the conditions needed to be a saavakabodhisatta there are only two (adhikaaro and chandataa) in contrast to the eight needed for the mahaabodhisatta and five for the paccekabodhisatta. Best wishes, Jim > ========================= > I must have missed the preceding posts pertaining to this. It is clear > to me what mahaabodhisattas and paccekabodhisattas are, but I don't know what > it would mean to be a saavakabodhisatta. Does it just mean someone who will > become (or has vowed to become) an arahant, or does it mean something more? > > With metta, > Howard 23847 From: Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply Hi, Jim - In a message dated 8/1/03 9:39:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > When I used the term 'saavakabodhisattas' I was taking it from memory. > But your post had me worried for moment thinking that the term might > not be in the commentaries. I checked, and sure enough it is used but > not often. It's not in the tipitaka, but is found in the atthakathas > and tikas. If the Theragatha commentarial passage ever gets translated > it will become clear who these bodhisattas are. Yes, they become the > arahants that we are familiar with in the Tipitaka. In terms of the > conditions needed to be a saavakabodhisatta there are only two > (adhikaaro and chandataa) in contrast to the eight needed for the > mahaabodhisatta and five for the paccekabodhisatta. > > Best wishes, > Jim > ========================= Thanks for this, Jim. I presume that 'chandataa' means aspiration or vow. What does 'adhikaaro' mean, please? Would it mean perserverence? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23848 From: suzakico Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! > I hope you don't mind if I make a suggestion here. > If the file is too big you could divide it into smaller files and > post them separately. That would make it easier for Nina to reply, > and it would also allow other members to read your comments (and to > join in by responding if they wish). Thanks for the suggestion. After pondering for a while, however, I decided not to follow your suggestion because there are many subtleties here and there. Also, I thought those who are interested will take effort, and those who are not will not read this anyway. (As for me, I did this as I was interested to capture the most of her comments/experiences and check and cross-check my'practice/understanding.) As for how Nina may respond (if she wishes to do so), , I leave it up to her. Depending on how she may want to respond I am sure she/we can find the way. There are perhaps lots of monologue-like comment I made. Some may point something of value, others may not (but for my own personal reminder). It all depends on where in the journey we all are, so I think. Good day! Good journey!! Kio 23849 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipatthana Hi Larry, op 31-07-2003 02:34 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Could a satipatthana consciousness (panna?), on a mundane level, be > either prompted or unprompted? N: Yes How about Right Concentration on a > mundane level? Could that be either prompted or unprompted? N: Yes, because all mundane kusala cittas of the sense-sphere can be either prompted or unprompted. We know in theory, but at the present moment it is very difficult. When we reason about the buying of the cornflakes, we can know, but it is still theory. A good example. L: How about in a path moment? Could Right Sati and Right Concentration be > either prompted or unprompted? N: this is intricate. The Comy to the Abhidhammatasangaha states that these cittas are not classified as prompted or unprompted. I used to think formerly that they were prompted, but no, we should not say this.I try to look up more when I have time, Nina. 23850 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! Dear Kio, op 31-07-2003 20:04 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > Having gone through your posts, I made my personal comments N: I appreciate so much your good and sympathetic questions. You really inspire me. I like Jon's suggestion to post small sections of your file here on dsg, with some days in between, so that we can think matters over. Everybody here likes your remarks and questions, so let us share with all. Besides, I seldom go to webs, limited access and lack of time. Taihen desu! Looking forward, Nina. P.S. I am just preparing this series for zolag web, since a friend in Thailand who is very sick suggested she would like to translate them into Thai. 23851 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:20am Subject: subco Vis.no 2. subco Vis. no 2. Relevant text of Vis: tadanantaraa pana pa~n~naa bhaavetabbaa, saa ca atisa"nkhepadesitattaa vi~n~naatumpi taava na sukaraa, pageva bhaavetu.m; tasmaa tassaa vitthaara.m bhaavanaanaya~nca dassetu.m ida.m pa~nhaakamma.m hoti. But "understanding" comes next. And that has still to be developed. Now that is not easy, firstly even to know about, let alone to develop, when it is taught very briefly. In order, therefore, to deal with the detailed method of its development there is the following set of questions. Subco: tadanantaraati ``citta.m pa~n~na''nti eva.m desanaakkamena, With regard to the words, coming next to this, ³concentration and understanding² (as mentioned): according to the manner of teaching pa.tipattikkamena ca tassa samaadhissa anantaraa. and according to the manner of practice, understanding comes next to this concentration. pa~n~naa bhaavetabbaa samaadhibhaavanaaya samannaagatena bhikkhunaati sambandho. With regard to the words, , the connection is that understanding must be developed by him. ``pa~n~na~nca bhaavaya''nti eva.m atisa"nkhepadesitattaa, As to the words, , this has been taught very briefly, gaathaava.n.nanaaya.m vaa ``samaadhisilaaya.m sunisita.m vipassanaapa~n~naasattha''nti also in the explanation of the verse, as to the words, *; eva.m ativiya sa"nkhepena bhaasitattaa aya.m saa pa~n~naati sabhaavato vi~n~naatumpi taava na sukaraa. Since it is thus said very briefly, this, namely,< this understanding>, is not easy to know as to its nature. bhaavanaavidhaanassa pana adassitattaa pageva bhaavetu.m na sukaraati sambandho. The fact that the process of development is not explained is the connection with the words,. pucchana.t.thena pa~nhaa, kamma.m kiriyaa kara.na.m, pa~nhaava kamma.m pa~nhaakamma.m, pucchanapayogoti attho. Questions that ask the meaning, action, activity, the activity of asking questions, the undertaking of asking, this is the meaning. English of subco 1 and 2: no 1:In all aspects means: the aspects of access, attainment , the development of the "masteries" (of jhana), the passing beyond applied thinking etc., the discarding of materiality etc., the restraint of consciousness in fourteen ways, the acquirement of the fivefold benefit, thus it is , to begin with,with reference to the development in all aspects. No 2: With regard to the words, coming next to this, ³concentration and understanding² (as mentioned): according to the manner of teaching and according to the manner of practice, understanding comes next to this concentration. With regard to the words, , the connection is that understanding must be developed by him. As to the words, and when he develops understanding, this has been taught very briefly, also in the explanation of the verse, as to the words, *; Since it is thus said very briefly, this, namely , is not easy to understand as to its nature. The fact that the process of development is not explained is the connection with the words, . Questions that ask the meaning, action, activity, the activity of asking questions, the undertaking of asking, this is the meaning. * Here is a reference to Vis. Ch 1,7, ³the knife of insight-understanding well-sharpened on the stone of concentration, might disentangle, cut away and demolish all the tangle of craving that had overgrown his own life¹s continuity...² ******** Remarks: ³'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding'² siile pati.t.thaaya naro sapa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~na~nca bhaavayanti Now here the word is used for man. In this word the meaning of hero is implied, it is an extraordinary person. When returning to Vis Ch 1, this becomes clearer. It is a bhikkhu with the very refined sila of the bhikkhu, seeing danger in the slightest faults, who lives like an arahat. He is well established in the many kinds of sila. He develops concentration up to the degree of jhana and the supernatural powers and then he developsinsight, and finally he will attain arahatship. Vis. I, 6, also states: Nina. 23852 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. EngPali XIV, 2 Dear Jon, The subco is long and after many paras comes to vikkhepaa, distraction. I try to go on, but so slowly. I feel a study of the Vis text is difficult without the subco. I shall always be way behind. Nina. op 31-07-2003 10:34 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > An answer that attempted to explain it all > would accomplidsh neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, > besides lead to distraction 23853 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. EngPali XIV, 2 Thanks, Nina. I agree with your remarks about the value of the subco in studying the Vism text. I know you'll do whatever you can, and I assure you that will be vey much appreciated. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > The subco is long and after many paras comes to vikkhepaa, > distraction. I > try to go on, but so slowly. I feel a study of the Vis text is > difficult without the subco. I shall always be way behind. > Nina. 23854 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Bodhi's reply Hi Howard, > Thanks for this, Jim. I presume that 'chandataa' means aspiration or > vow. What does 'adhikaaro' mean, please? Would it mean perserverence? I didn't give it in English as I wasn't sure of the meanings myself. I knew that 'chandataa' was derived from 'chanda' (desire) but didn't understand the purpose of having the '-taa' at the end. The commentary (SnA I 49) explains 'chandataa' as 'kattukamyataa' - a state of desiring/wishing to do. So I suppose that means something like a desire to work towards realizing nibbaana. The 'adhikaaro' (meritorious act) is more difficult. The commentary gives 'adhikakaaro' and 'pariccaago' (giving up, renunciation, sacrifice) as the meaning. I'm not sure if this applies to the saavakabodhisatta, but in the case of the mahaabodhisatta it refers to the sacrifice of one's life, etc. I think this would be referring to the five great sacrifices. The resolve or aspiration (abhiniihaaro) succeeds with these two conditions (adhikaaro and chandataa). I think 'pariccaago' relates to 'caaga' (generosity) which is the subject of one of the six recollections. (see Vism VII.107ff). Best wishes, Jim > Hi, Jim - > > In a message dated 8/1/03 9:39:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jimanderson_on@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > When I used the term 'saavakabodhisattas' I was taking it from memory. > > But your post had me worried for moment thinking that the term might > > not be in the commentaries. I checked, and sure enough it is used but > > not often. It's not in the tipitaka, but is found in the atthakathas > > and tikas. If the Theragatha commentarial passage ever gets translated > > it will become clear who these bodhisattas are. Yes, they become the > > arahants that we are familiar with in the Tipitaka. In terms of the > > conditions needed to be a saavakabodhisatta there are only two > > (adhikaaro and chandataa) in contrast to the eight needed for the > > mahaabodhisatta and five for the paccekabodhisatta. > > > > Best wishes, > > Jim > > > ========================= > Thanks for this, Jim. I presume that 'chandataa' means aspiration or > vow. What does 'adhikaaro' mean, please? Would it mean perserverence? > > With metta, > Howard 23855 From: Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] satipatthana Hi Nina, This is interesting that mundane sati and samadhi can be either prompted or unprompted. I'll have to ponder that a little. Larry 23856 From: suzakico Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 7:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 Let's see if this works. Here is the first batch. This is about one third of the whole file. I will plan to upload the next when I see the indication to go to the next. Instead of cutting and pasting to select certain areas, I post as in my original file. Hope this is OK. I thank again for the accomodating atomosphere here that encourages the exchange of ideas. Please understand that I am simply trying to figure out what abhidhamma in daily life is - perhaps with a bit unique background - as everybody is unique obviously.... - Kio Introduction This file contains the story of Nina Van Gorkom about her learning experiences with A. Sujin, a Thai monk, the author of A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas (http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf.). Nina?Es books include Abhidhamma in Daily Life (http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html )and Buddhism In Daily Live (see http://www.abhidhamma.org/buddhism_in_daily_life.htm ), I met her at the dhamma study group at yahoo! Group. Since I only studied their books and articles briefly, my knowledge of Abhidhamma is very limited. Yet, I sense there is something very common in her expression that I can identify with. Since Nina was generous enough to respond to my questions on abhidhamma, etc., I am very glad that I got this opportunity to share my view with her. I put my comments in the parenthesis ((..)) although they are more like my monologue. This file may go through another refinement. So, please note that at this moment. - Kio Suzaki (July 31, 2003) My First Inquiry to Nina #23142 by me (The dialogue took place at the dhamma study group at Yahoo! Group) As I am just stopping by, I am hopeful not to disturb the flow of the discussion going on here. But as I read the book, A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas perhaps for 4-5 hours worth and 1/3 of it so far, I came back with a question that I appreciate it very much if you can address for me as much as you must have gained great benefit from the book and the interaction with Sujin. Anyway, here is my question: Why is it so necessary to analyze the mind and body phenomena in the way suggested, i.e., dividing by various terms to distinguish them in detail? (This book points out 16 levels of vipassana nana (knowledge). 89-129 types of consciousness (citta), 52 types of mental factor, 28 types of physical phenomenon, etc.) At least for me, this is too cumbersome and makes me feels like losing the holistic picture although this may be beneficial for specifically focused training. (My sense however is that even the training/meditation may be too complex.) Furthermore at least from reading the sutta, it appears that the Buddha never went into such a detail. I realize that once interested and realized the benefit, we may want to explore to the detail and find the joy in such exploration. I just want to get your personal feedback on this concern. Kio #23160 by Nina Kiosan, O Genki desu ka? I hope you will stay here, not just passing. Welcome. I appreciate your interest in Survey. See below. op 26-06-2003 20:14 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: But as I read the book, A Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas perhaps for 4-5 hours worth and 1/3 of it so far, > I came back with a question that I appreciate it very much if you > can address for me as much as you must have gained great benefit > from the book and the interaction with Sujin. Nina: This is not a book one can read quickly. It is good to start looking up items that you are interested in. Under Samatha: a careful explanation of what meditation is, the difference between samatha and vipassana. Under Realities and Concepts: what are ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas, which are actually the objects of vipassana. The last chapter: about vipassana in daily life. Suzakico: Why is it so necessary to analyze the mind and body phenomena in the > way suggested, i.e., dividing by various terms to distinguish them > in detail? (This book points out 16 levels of vipassana nana > (knowledge). 89-129 types of consciousness (citta), 52 types of > mental factor, 28 types of physical phenomenon, etc.) At least for > me, this is too cumbersome... N: Good question. We need you here on dsg. My experience: more than thirty years ago I lived in Thailand and went straight to A. Sujin, just asking questions. I listened in the morning to her radio programs in Thai, and in this way slowly I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness. It depends on the individual's interest how much details he is interested in, there is no rule. Do not cumber yourself. Some basic knowledge about different cittas , rupas, processes of cittas are beneficial, a good foundation for vipassana. But it is best to start in a very simple way: starting from this moment. Is there no seeing? We have a feeling of self who sees, but is this the truth? After seeing you become attached to what you see, or you have aversion. Are these moments not real? These are properties (cetasikas) arising with types of citta different from seeing. Seeing sees visible object, just what appears through the eyes. Visible object is not a person or thing, those are concepts we think of. This thinking is conditioned by association of different experiences that are remembered. Visible object is rupa. So long as we do not distinguish nama from rupa, we cling to a whole, we cling to self. ((This is a way to point the detachment in a different manner.)) Gradually you learn that cittas are conditioned, conditioned by past experiences, by accumulated inclinations. You experience praise and blame, gain and loss, and these do not stay, they are beyond control. They are conditioned realities. You may come to know that the understanding of different moments is helpful for you personally, in daily life. The aim of learning more about different realities is detachment. First detachment from the idea of self, and later on from all objects (for the arahat). ((Why self first? Perhaps, depends on the background?)) In the Survey it is helpful to read about citta, so that we come to know: if there were no citta, nothing would appear: no seeing, no thinking. All our experiences we find so important are merely different cittas which arise and then fall away very rapidly. Nobody can hold them or slow them down. Nobody can direct different cittas arising in processes in a particular order. A. Sujin helped me to understand simple realities like seeing, hearing, all experiences of objects through six doors. And this is in complete conformity with the suttas. Read for example Kindred Sayings IV. In the course of all these years my interest in details was growing, but this should come naturally, no forcing to absorb all at once. And then: we should know that intellectual understanding, though a foundation, is not direct understanding, vipassana, which is actually the development of right understanding of the eightfold Path. Understanding of the reality, nama or rupa, appearing at the present moment (ima, I liked that kanji). No spectacular progress, and it is subtle clinging if we wish for that. A. Sujin is most helpful to make us see subtle clinging. I needed many journeys with her and friends to discover that. In the course of years we went in a group of friends to India, and I visited Thailand many times. ((Learn to see is OK. What then is the principal process? )) We have aeons of clinging and ignorance behind us, how can this all be over in a moment? I am just grateful that I was enabled to discover for myself: this is the right Path, and it works. At least I can begin to develop it. But the more we learn, the more we realize: we are at the level of Kindergarten. In the beginning I was at times impatient, but now I am grateful for every little bit of understanding I gain. Also the discussions here in this list help me. ((Nina does not explain here but it appears the practicing the "quiet observation?Eis perhaps found as key. Still, why not discuss how to uproot the root of sankhara???)) S: and makes me feels like losing the > holistic picture although this may be beneficial for > specifically focused training. (My sense however is that even the > training/meditation may be too complex.) N: It is not a matter of focussed training, that would make you cling to a self who can focus. The aim is detachment. Let realities come as they are, and when there are conditions for understanding it will arise without you interfering. The conditions are: association with a good friend in Dhamma, listening and study, wise attention, practice in accordance with what you learnt. ((I guess this answer the question. So, it appears to be a mild way of attaining the awakening. It does not appear that there is emphasis on strong determination as in the case of vipassana meditation.)) S: Furthermore at least from > reading the sutta, it appears that the Buddha never went into such a > detail. N: Also the Abhidhamma is part of the Tipitaka, rehearsed at the first Council. See Useful Posts in the archives under Abhidhamma. In the suttas there are many details about cittas, but in Abh there are more details. If you doubt about Abhidhamma: it is mentioned also in the Vinaya. I hope Christine can help you with useful links, also to "Manual of Abhidhamma" which is good for a start. My book (on line) Buddhism in Daily Life is being translated into Japanese, Rob. K. may tell you more, he lives in Japan. I lived there many years ago, but forgot the language. I found Kanji very suitable for expressing realities, but I forgot it. S: By the way, I have some vipassana and Zen background as shown in > www.suzaki.has.it . Personally, Zen appeals to me because of its > directness. N: When in Japan, I found that there are so many Zen sects. Suzuki became popular in the West (I read some of his books) and now people think that all Zen is only that type. We have to distinguish different types. Vipassana appeals to me because I find it very direct, about simple realities in daily life. It helps me to understand my daily life. But no promise of a quick result, and that is very realistic. ((Her term vipassana and mine may have different meaning tied to the difference in our experiences.)) Nina. == Nina san, Kon-nichiwa > I hope you will stay here, not just passing Thank you for the offer! By the way, I used to go to the Netherlands (the place you live now?) quite often. But I am happy that this forum helps the communication so much at ease even if we are so many miles away from each other. (I live in LA) I am reading your books of `survey?Eand `daily life?EI found on the net. In the meantime, if you can respond to my question at your leisure, that would be most helpful. What I am curious first is to know your vivid, or perhaps inspiring moment you had at the earlier/beginning years with A. Sujin. I read some comment from the book on `daily life.?E But more specifically, how was your impression/learning from the first meeting? How skillfully did she bring the technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can highlight? Even a tiny incident that brought the message to you ?Everbally or behaviorally -may be very helpful. (If you have written such a story elsewhere, please let me know. So far, I found `survey?Eand `daily life?Eon the net) In the last post, you said: "I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness.?E What was the few specific incidents in your early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma? Then, you said, "it is best to start in a very simple way: starting from this moment. Is there no seeing? We have a feeling of self who sees, but is this the truth? After seeing you become attached to what you see, or you have aversion. Are these moments not real? These are properties (cetasikas) arising with types of citta different from seeing. Seeing sees visible object, just what appears through the eyes. Visible object is not a person or thing, those are concepts we think of. This thinking is conditioned by association of different experiences that are remembered. Visible object is rupa. So long as we do not distinguish nama from rupa, we cling to a whole, we cling to self.?E The above sentences indicate: the aim is understanding of mind- matter relationship, by dissecting or rather becoming aware of specific happenings that we experience in our daily life (that we were unaware of before). Such insight will enable us to become aware of what is going on ?Ein terms of cause and effect relationship to see the cause of suffering, etc. Such cause and effect relationship lead to the experiential understanding of four noble truths. So, practicing the `process?E(may I also say, sila- samadhi-panna?) will lead to elimination of suffering. The question: Did this rephrasing/interpretation make sense to you? Or, are you talking something more specific? Also, are you saying conditioned thinking is `always?Ebad, or at times bad? Any comment? The last point: From just skimming to read Buddhism in Daily Life, it appears that you do not put high importance in `formal?E meditation. Was this the case in your beginning of the Path? Did you start to do `formal?Emeditation later? If so, how and how effective was it? Or, are you suggesting that it depends on people? I realize I already posted many questions. So, I stop here. If you could answer in any way you prefer, I would appreciate it very much! Ogen kide! (bow) Kio Nina's Learning Experiences from A. Sujin #23249 Dear Kio, op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > What I am curious first is to know your vivid, or perhaps inspiring > moment you had at the earlier/beginning years with A. Sujin. I read > some comment from the book on `daily life.' But more specifically, > how was your impression/learning from the first meeting? How > skillfully did she bring the technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say > so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can > highlight? Even a tiny incident that brought the message to you ?E> verbally or behaviorally -may be very helpful. Nina:I met A. Sujin for the first time in the Wat Mahathaat temple where a foreign monk was teaching about the jhanafactors, and also helped us to read suttas. We read the Parinibbana sutta and the Kesaputta sutta (mostly called Kalama sutta). I was impressed that you do not have to accept anything from others, but have to find out the truth for yourself. A. Sujin kept rather to the background in this temple. I approached her and said that I wanted to learn about meditation that you can apply in daily life. My life was very busy, being in the diplomatic service. (In Japan the teachers at the language school (nihongo no gakko de) called me "Mrs Party". I felt there must something else in life, not just being engaged with parties. A. Sujin said, yes, vipassana can be developed in daily life, and she invited me to her house. From then on I came several times a week with many questions. I asked her about belief in God and how to find out the truth. She answered: what is truth will appear. She also helped me to see what is clinging, clinging to a belief. I had never considered this before. She said from the beginning that in the teaching of Dhamma, the person who teaches is not important, it is not the person but it is the Dhamma that matters. This was new also for Thais; in Asean countries there is a great respect for teachers (sensei!) and people tend to follow what teachers say, especially when they are bhikkhus. When teachers wrote about Dhamma in olden times they would not mention the source of their quotes. A. Sujin greatly contributed to a change in this mentality, always encouraging to looking up the texts oneself, verifying the truth for oneself. She started interest in the translations of Commentaries and promoted this. I remember our visits to the library of Wat Bovornives and our conversations with monks. A friend made notes and gradually Commentaries in Thai were printed. A. Sujin gave lectures in a temple every Sunday and quoted suttas. She asked a monk ahead of time about the Commentary to the relevant text. I tried to look up the suttas in my English editions. (This is all for now, it will be continued.) Nina. == #23281 Dear Kio and all, My time with A. Sujin. 2. When I was at her house, she explained about nama and rupa, about kusala citta and akusala citta. She answered my questions and very soon made me work for an English radio program. The first chapters that you find in Buddhism in Daily Life are from my notes with my conversations with A. Sujin. Every two weeks I had to finish a new chapter. It was a busy, but happy time. She helped me to see that all those different cittas, cetasikas and rupas occur in daily life. I learnt that whatever occurs is conditioned; that good and bad inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and that these condition our behaviour. Everything I learnt was relevant to daily life. ((So, it may have been like on-the-job training ?Eusing daily cases to point the phenomena, what is happening, how we respond, and what to do about it (perhaps, quiet observation?E) An example: we visited a bhikkhu who smiled when I told him about my interest in the teachings. A. Sujin asked me whether I knew why he smiled. She explained, because of happy feeling, somanassa. This sounds very simple, but it made me realize that feeling conditions our outward appearance. ((Indicating mind-matter/body relationship.)) Conditions, she reminded me of them in the situation. We were waiting near a kuti, a bhikkhu¹s dwelling, for a certain monk. He was not there and I suggested that we would find out about him. She said, let us sit at this stone and just wait and see what happens because of conditions. ((Here, I guess she may have been teaching observation, detachment, patience, etc.)) We sat quietly for quite some time. What a good lesson, I am so grateful for all those reminders I received in the situation. It is true: we think of people we want to meet, but in fact, there are only different experiences, such as seeing, hearing and thinking, and they are all conditioned. Seeing and hearing are conditioned by kamma, thinking are kusala cittas or akusala cittas which have as objects the story, a whole of all our impressions. I was used to take notice only of the outward appearance of people, but now I learnt about different cittas which condition our behaviour. People may look very pleasant and peaceful, but what do we know about the cittas which change from moment to moment? ((So, these were the practices of "know thyself?Eusing others and our own situation as examples.)) When crossing a street she said: elements on elements, and it is so true: hardness appears, and it is only an element. ((Pointing to the direct experience as opposed to intellectual understanding.)) We think of feet and street, but let us consider what can be directly experienced. However, it took many years before all these lessons were absorbed, and I needed later on during different journeys many explanations about the difference between thinking and awareness, before I understood a little more. (Later on I come back to this). A. Sujin used to go in retreat in a center but one day she realized that actually daily realities are the objects of vipassana. From then on she did not go anymore in retreat, and this happened not so long before I met her. ((This is very interesting. Here is a question of balance. One to de-root the root of sankhara. The other to practice in daily life paying attention to everything ?Eand to maintain awareness and equanimity at all times. It may require one to be at certain level to do this. Question: The Buddha kept meditation practice throughout his life. Why?)) Since most people were not used to this approach, they had many questions about vipassana in daily life. I found this approach the only reasonable one and did not doubt about its value. We have to know our own accumulations, our inclinations we take for self. They appear, and thus, they can be objects of insight. ((If this is the reason of daily practice, I see the same possible in meditation as found in my case and many others. It is a practice in the controlled setting, yet to be practiced in daily life obviously.)) A. Sujin always stressed that there is no rule about how one should develop understanding and that one cannot direct what object appears at a particular moment. I find this most reasonable, because whatever is experienced by citta is conditioned. We went to different temples, also in the province. People asked questions about vipassana and concentration. Although I was just learning Thai, A. Sujin made me talk as well. I enjoyed simple life in the province, without any fringes. People treated me as one of them, and that is what makes me happy. People asked whether slowing down one¹s movements would help vipassana. A. Sujin asked one person to run and to find out whether there is any difference as to what realities are appearing. The conclusion was : it is all the same. ((So far as one pays attention carefully to gain understanding/insight.)) True, seeing is always seeing, no matter we run or sit. Seeing is a citta, an ultimate reality that should be known as it is, non-self. I heard a dog barking and asked whether hearing a dog is an object of insight. She explained that hearing just sound is different from thinking of a dog. ((See points to the detached observation. This is to let us see how the mind moves from first receiving the sound before our conditioned mind to respond.)) I listened, but only many years later I understood the point. People also asked: is this kusala, is that akusala. Her answer: you can only know for yourself. ((- Given that person has a calm detached mind with awareness and equanimity to bring out the insight.)) Nobody else can tell you. She also explained that it would be very easy if someone else tells you: do first this, then that and you will make progress. Her advice always was : there are no rules, there is no specific order of the objects insight can be developed. ((What about sila-samadhgi-panna? What about awareness and equanimity, detached observation, patience, realization of conditioned mind behavior, awareness of mind-matter relationship, etc., etc.? I feel that there is what I would like to call a principle way.)) In the whole of the Tipitaka we learn about realities that arise because of conditions and are non-self, now also in the practice we have to be consistent, how can we force ourselves to be aware of specific objects. She kept on warning us of subtle clinging to progress, to result. Expectations are lobha, attachment. She repeated many times: Don't expect anything. ((Certainly! No seeking mind!! If you seek for it, you will not find it.)) We should not expect anything from ourselves nor from others. Expectations bring sorrow. I am grateful for her example in this matter, and her example of patience and equanimity. Some people heavily criticized her, but she was always patient and she calmly explained about cause and effect: what cause will bring what effect. We should be clear about this. Do we want only calm or is understanding our aim? (will be continued). == #23306 Thank you, Nina for these posts. I am reading with the smile and the curiosity of a child! Kio == 23857 From: Dr Jose M Sanz-Tonnelier Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 8:32pm Subject: Re: A. Sujin is not a Thai Monk suzakico writes: Dear Suzakico, A. Sujin is not a Thai monk because she is a woman. Women con not be ordaine as monks in Buddhism (Theravatan). Venerable Yanatharo > > > > > Introduction > This file contains the story of Nina Van Gorkom about her learning > experiences with A. Sujin, a Thai monk, the author of A Survey of 23858 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] bodhisatta Hi Howard, I quote again from A. Sujin's Perfections: Nina. op 01-08-2003 15:55 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Thanks for this, Jim. I presume that 'chandataa' means aspiration or > vow. What does 'adhikaaro' mean, please? Would it mean perserverence? 23859 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Hi Larry, op 01-08-2003 01:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "N: proximate > cause of panna>. I prefer to keep to the definitions in the > Commentaries." L What line is this a commentary to? Is there more to it? What is the Pali > for "non-perplexity"? What commentary is it? What is a "good guide"? It is the Expositor, 122. See also Vis. XIV, 143, definition of panna. I took it from my Cetasikas. I mentioned: Dhammasangani, Book I, Ch I, §16, : panna as searching the dhamma, that is, the four noble Truths, as a guide, as a sword (see my subco transl)which cuts off defilements, as a light, as gloy, as splendour. I do not have the Pali of non-perplexity. Nina. 23860 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! Dear Kio op 01-08-2003 19:10 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > Thanks for the suggestion. After pondering for a while, however, I > decided not to follow your suggestion because there are many > subtleties here and there. Also, I thought those who are interested > will take effort, and those who are not will not read this anyway. N: No, this is not the reason as I said. S:(As for me, I did this as I was interested to capture the most of > her comments/experiences and check and cross-check > my'practice/understanding.) N:sounds very good, don.t worry about the monologues, or about the form, anything is good. So, I hope you change your mind, Nina. P.S. Do not send attachment, danger of crash. 23861 From: Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Nina: "I do not have the Pali of non-perplexity." Hi Nina, Maybe the Pali of "non-perplexity" is sati. Larry 23862 From: Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Hi Kom, If you can't find your copy of Vism. maybe you could just give us your understanding of insight knowledge (vipassana) and profitable consciousness (kusala citta) just to get the ball rolling. Larry ___________ "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 2. What is understanding? Understanding (pa~n~naa) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness. 23863 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "suzakico" wrote: > > > Gradually you learn that cittas are conditioned, conditioned by past > experiences, by accumulated inclinations. You experience praise and > blame, > gain and loss, and these do not stay, they are beyond control. They > are > conditioned realities. You may come to know that the understanding of > different moments is helpful for you personally, in daily life. > The aim of learning more about different realities is detachment. > First > detachment from the idea of self, and later on from all objects (for > the > arahat). ______________ KIO: ((Why self first? Perhaps, depends on the background?)) > > ___________________________--- Dear Kio, Partly it depends on background, or accumulations, as you say. Also it is step by step and this may suprise because anatta (not self) seems hard to understand while detachment from sense objects is not. ""Sense desire clinging is obvious; not so the other kinds" (the three types of micchaditthi, wrong view)Visuddhimagga Xvii 246. There are four types of clinging (see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly self view clinging. Note that three of the four are types of miccha-ditthi (the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). The path of vipassana is said to gradually eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires. RobertK 23864 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 Hi Kio (& James), I think you joined DSG while Jon and I were away - a big welcome and I was very glad to read your questions which prompted Nina’s interesting series. I’ve also been glad to know more about you and all your very extensive studies and interests from notes here and your website. Back to your post and glad to see all your notes, Thank you for sharing them with us here: --- suzakico wrote: > Let's see if this works. Here is the first batch. This is about > one third of the whole file. I will plan to upload the next when I > see the indication to go to the next. Instead of cutting and > pasting to select certain areas, I post as in my original file. > Hope this is OK. ..... As you ask, next time, I think it would be easier for us all, if you just posted shorter segments and deleted Nina’s posts apart from the few lines preceding your interesting comments if possible. (see DSG Guidelines on ‘trimming posts’) There is a lot to discuss further and I know Nina will also be glad to continue, but as she mentioned, just one segment at a time is easier for her. I see RobertK has responded to one. Let me pick up on the meaning of vipassana, as James also raised this recently with Dan. ****** >Nina: It is not a matter of focussed training, that would make you cling to a self who can focus. The aim is detachment. Let realities come as they are, and when there are conditions for understanding it will arise without you interfering. The conditions are: association with a good friend in Dhamma, listening and study, wise attention, practice in accordance with what you learnt. >KIO:((I guess this answer the question. So, it appears to be a mild way of attaining the awakening. It does not appear that there is emphasis on strong determination as in the case of vipassana meditation.)) ......<....> >Nina: Vipassana appeals to me because I find it very direct, about simple realities in daily life. It helps me to understand my daily life. But no promise of a quick result, and that is very realistic. > KIO:((Her term vipassana and mine may have different meaning tied to the difference in our experiences.)) ****** Sarah: I’d like to refer you to some past posts on the topic of vipassana in the first place. I’d be glad to hear any further comments you have. ******** Jon: (brief) Meaning of vipassana http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3663 Nina: (detailed) Vipassana in the texts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6954 Sarah: Vipassana in a sutta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8403 RobertK: Vipassana and Abhidhamma http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8170 Nina: Vipassana and Anatta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21581 Nina: Vipassana in Daily Life http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22311 Jonothan: Vipassana and Practice http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6786 RobertK: Vipassana Meditation http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2018 RobertK: Abhidhamma and Vipassana http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8178 ***** Sarah: Look forward to reading further discussions between you, Nina and anyone else. With metta, Sarah ====== 23865 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 6:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Dear Nina and Larry, The Pali word for non-perplexity is asammoha. Other possible translations that come to mind are non-bewilderment and non-confusion (~Naa.namoli has non-delusion). I checked the Pali of P.M. Tin's translation and it is clear that he has made a translation mistake. 'proximate cause' should be corrected to 'manifestation' (paccupa.t.thaana). The proximate cause (padat.t.haana) of pa~n~naa is samaadhi or concentration (see Vism XIV.7). Non-bewilderment sounds good to me because it can easily be associated with "as it were a good guide in the forest" (forest = wilds, wilderness, hence bewilderment). Jim Hi Larry, op 01-08-2003 01:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "N: proximate > cause of panna>. I prefer to keep to the definitions in the > Commentaries." L What line is this a commentary to? Is there more to it? What is the Pali > for "non-perplexity"? What commentary is it? What is a "good guide"? It is the Expositor, 122. See also Vis. XIV, 143, definition of panna. I took it from my Cetasikas. I mentioned: Dhammasangani, Book I, Ch I, §16, : panna as searching the dhamma, that is, the four noble Truths, as a guide, as a sword (see my subco transl)which cuts off defilements, as a light, as gloy, as splendour. I do not have the Pali of non-perplexity. Nina. 23866 From: Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 7:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Hi Jim, Thanks for this, very interesting. It occurred to me that amoha could be translated as non-perplexity and to use it as the proximate cause of panna would give it a slightly different shade of meaning, rather than being considered a synonym for panna, as it usually is. Larry 23867 From: Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 7:59am Subject: concentration Hi Sarah, In the US a significant number of children have a learning disability called Attention Deficit Syndrome and it is starting to be diagnosed in adults. Is that the case in Hong Kong? I think ADS may not be a deficiency of attention, but rather a deficiency of concentration, the ability to cognize an object repeatedly. As a teacher of young children how do you prompt the arising of concentration in your students and how do you teach them to prompt the arising of concentration in themselves? I have a theory that one way is with memory repetition practices: the repeated recitation of texts, arithmetic and spelling formulas. And I was wondering if the monastic use of repeated recitation of suttas was an aid to concentration. What do you think? Also, I was wondering if you have any ideas on why concentration IS tranquility when it is linked with insight as in "tranquility and insight". When I concentrate I am distinctly un-tranquil. Larry 23868 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 8:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Hi Larry, Sorry for the slow response. I managed to fetch my copy out of the storage (along with other books), but my computer crashed recently, so haven't gotten the opportunity to get back to this yet. I am responding to this not having looked at Vim yet... Vipassana-nana, or the insight knowledge, is the clear comprehension of the characteristics of realities. There are 16 levels, which are attainment levels, of clear comprehension starting with nama-rupa paricheta nana, or the separation of nama and rupa. What does insight knowledge cognitive of? The realities, the kandhas, the sense bases, and the dhatus, all realities (paramatha dhammas), and not the concepts (pannatti, or objects of thinking). How does Vipassana-nana come about? It comes from the development of panna starting from panna at the listening level, at the thinking level, and at the practice level. There are many difficulties in learning about Vipassana. Firstly, vipassana is a clear comprehension of REALITIES. If we consider why the Buddha's teaching is said to be irrefutable, we can begin to understand what realities are. For example, when two people see a woman, one says she is pretty, and the other says she isn't. This fact of prettiness is refutable. The Buddha's teaching isn't like that. Aversion has the characteristic of repulsion of its object. When aversion arises, only a fool (well, moha or ignorance) would deny / be unaware of this characteristic which is irrefutable. The teachings of anicca (impermanence), dukha (suffering), and anatta (non-self, uncontrollability) are like this as well: they are irrefutable and inherent to realities. Second, vipassana is a CLEAR COMPREHENSION of realities. It is not thinking of realities. We may misunderstand our thinking of realities as vipassana-nana. For example, thinking that nothing is permanent is not the same as comprehending that nothing is permanent. Repeating to oneself about impermanence, or enumerating the things that we think are impermanent, is not vipassana-nana. Third, one doesn't jump from knowing nothing about realities to an immediate, clear comprehension of anicca, dukha, and anatta, unless one has been accumulating for a long time. Panna progresses in stages (hence the 16 levels). It is impossible to have clear comprehension of anicca and dukkha without first the clear comprehension of nama and rupa. It's important to learn about the difference between kusala citta and akusala cittas. We have them throughout our daily life. Without more refined and thorough distinctions between the two, we often take akusala as kusala. For example, when we see a small child, and we pet him, is that petting born out of kindness or attachment? Kindness and attachment both are co nascent with either pleasant mental feeling (and piti, or happiness) or neutral mental feelings. The mental feeling alone cannot be used to distinguish between the two. Even moha-mula citta, consciousness rooted in ignorance, is also conascent with neutral mental feeling. When we feel calm and undisturbed, is that kusala citta or citta born out of ignorance? Kusala is free from defilements (kilesa). When the consciousness is kusala, it is said to be mental seclusion (seclusion, or viveka, are two: body and mental). It is secluded from defilements. For a bikkhu who lives near town, he is said to be secluded if he is not defiled. When is the mind free from defilement? Only when it is inclined toward dana (giving), sila (abstaining from bad deeds, completing good deeds), tranquil development, or insight development. When the mind is inclined toward other things, the mind is defiled. How do you know what I said above is true? It must match the Buddha teachings, and ultimately, realities. We should prove to ourselves if what one says matches / diverges from the Buddha teachings, and when one has enough wisdom to prove/disprove it, then one no longer has to rely on others in the development of panna. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 9:53 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) > > > Hi Kom, > > If you can't find your copy of Vism. maybe you could just give us your > understanding of insight knowledge (vipassana) and profitable > consciousness (kusala citta) just to get the ball rolling. > 23869 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 8:21am Subject: A Pleasant Abiding Friends, Sorry, I've lost the thread where we were discussing this. I'd understood someone to've said that 'a pleasant abiding here and now' referred to jhaana for an arahant only. This, I think, is where I'd got the idea that it applied to the puthujjana, too: Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, secluded from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana.would attain and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It might occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Majjhima Nikaaya 1. 8. Sallekhasutta Is the bhikkhu referred to here an arahant? I wouldn't think it could (mistakenly) occur to an arahant, 'I abide in purity'. mike 23870 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 8:27am Subject: life moment of beings Friends, I ran across the following passage in my notes but have lost the source. Does anyone know where this came from? ".in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurence of one single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased the being is said to have ceased." Thanks, mike 23871 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear M.Nease: M.Nease:".in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is > extremely short, being > only as much as the occurence of one single > conscious moment. When that > consciousness has ceased the being is said to have > ceased." ---------------------------------------------------- Your quote reminds me a Sisters of Mercy´s song (Track 5 of the "Vision Thing" CD): WHEN YOU DON´T SEE ME (Eldritch/Bruh) When you don´t see me... It´s not a matter of going to grow It´s not a matter of time or how I feel I´m throwing off the shadow of a better man now What you see is yhat you never had Get real Get another I don´t exist when you don´t see me I don´t exist when you´re not here What the eye don´t see won´t break the heart You can make believe when we´re apart but when you leave I disappear when you don´t see me... Oh it´s kind of different when you´re there you can lease the peace of mind you bought a mask, I put it on you never thought to ask me if I wear it when you´re gone Get real Get another I don´t exist when you don´t see me I don´t exist when you´re not here What the eye don´t see won´t break the heart You can make believe when we´re apart but when you leave I disappear when you don´t see me... (...) and so on Well, that it is. Do you like Sisters of Mercy/ Andrew Eldritch´s tunes ? Sometimes Eldritch´s lyrics and themes have a very buddhistic core!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23872 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Thanks for the great lyric--afraid I'm pretty much out of touch with the music scene these days (mostly listening to old jazz). Good stuff, though. Blissful is passionlessness in the world, The overcoming of sensual desires; But the abolition of the conceit I am -- That is truly the supreme bliss. Udana II, 1 mike 23873 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:40am Subject: FW: Meanings of dhamma, no 2. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:28:32 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Meanings of dhamma, no 2. Meanings of dhamma, no 2.. As we have seen, pariyattidhammo includes the ninefold (nine limbs or a²ngas) classification of the teachings (sutta, geyya, etc.) which is a classification according to literary styles, and not according to given texts or books (See Nyanaponika¹s dictionary under sasana). In the ³Baahiranidaana² (Introductory chapter of the Commentary to the Vinaya, by Buddhaghosa), it is explained that the teachings as a whole have been laid down as, ³This is the Dhamma and this is the Vinaya, these are the first, intermediate and final sayings of the Buddha, these are the Vinaya, Sutta and Abhidhamma Pi.takas, these are the Nikaayas from Diigha to Khuddaka, these are the nine A¹ngas commencing with Sutta and these are the eighty-four thousand Units of the Dhamma,² was rehearsed together by the assembly of self-controlled monks with Mahaakassapa as their leader verily observing this distinction.² Remark: thus, whenever the Dhamma and the Vinaya are referred to, the Abhidhamma is included in ³Dhamma². The following meaning of dhamma explained in the Dhammapada-Atthakata, is dhamma as an entity without a living soul (nissatta, nijjiva): <"Tasmi.m khopana samaye dhammaa honti, khandhaa hontii"ti (dha. sa. 121) Then, at that time dhammas occur, aggregates occur. aya.mnissattadhammo naama, nijjiivadhammotipi eso eva. this is dhamma without living being (non-substantial), it is also truly dhamma without life. Tesu imasmi.m .thaane nissattanijjiivadhammo adhippeto. As to these, dhamma without a living soul is meant in this case. > So atthato tayo aruupino khandhaa vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sa'nkhaarakkhandhoti. As to the meaning of this, there are the three mental aggregates of feeling, remembrance and formations (all cetasikas apart from feeling and remembrance).> N: Remark: the text quoted from the Dhammasangani (first Book of the Abhidhamma) states: ³At the time of consciousness coming into existence, there occur dhammas.² Thus, the aggregate of consciousness (vi~n`naa.nakkhandha) which is also a mental aggregate, is mentioned first, and then the other three mental aggregates denoted as dhammas are explained. If we do not see the whole context we may not understand why three mental aggregates are mentioned separately. ******* Nina. 23874 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:40am Subject: Perfections on Zolag web Dear all, Alan has now put A. Sujin's Perfections on Zolag web: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Nina 23875 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 0:36pm Subject: Re: life moment of beings Hello Mike, Visuddhi Magga VIII.39 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Friends, > > I ran across the following passage in my notes but have lost the source. > Does anyone know where this came from? > > ".in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is extremely short, being > only as much as the occurence of one single conscious moment. When that > consciousness has ceased the being is said to have ceased." > > Thanks, > > mike 23876 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: life moment of beings Hi Chris, Thanks! Somehow I'd lost the 'V' and was looking in 'III.39'--good to have good friends. If anyone is interested, this is a really great passage. Another piece: '"Life, person, pleasure, pain--just these alone '"Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. '"Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive '"Are all alike, gone never to return '"No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not '"Produced; when that is present, then it lives; '"When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: '"The highest sense this concept will allow"' (Ndt.42) The footnote alone, dealing with atta-bhaava or sakkaya and pa~n~natti, is an amazing read. From the footnote: "...these are derived concepts, and this kind is a concept (pa~n~natti) in the sense of 'ability to be set up (pa~n~napetabba=ability to be conceptualized), but not in the sense of 'making known (pa~n~naapana)'." mike ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 12:36 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: life moment of beings > Hello Mike, > > Visuddhi Magga VIII.39 > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > Friends, > > > > I ran across the following passage in my notes but have lost the > source. > > Does anyone know where this came from? > > > > "...in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is extremely > > short, being only as much as the occurence of one single conscious moment. > > When that consciousness has ceased the being is said to have ceased." 23877 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > > > At the same time samma-sati, right mindfulness, does its work too, and > samma- > > sankapa, (translated somewhat misleadingly as right thinking) touches the > object > > and samma-ditthi, right insight, understands it. > > Do you prefer 'intention' or 'purpose' to 'thought' or 'thinking' for > sankappa? > > Thanks, _______________ Dear Mike, I get used to the pali word and sometimes the English term seems clumsy. But now that you mention it 'right thinking' is looking better. In fact I can't think of a better translation. robert 23878 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Effort Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:32 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Effort > Hi Mike, > > Thanks for stepping in with these totally appropriate > quotes. I hope so--I'm never certain. Even when I'm fairly sure, I'm never sure of speaking well. > I think Victor and I had reached a stage where > we both felt we were being accused of misrepresenting > (slandering), the Tathagata. When we overcome the > tendency to take offence, we see that there is an > important issue involved. I look forward to the day that I overcome that tendency...! > The true Dhamma is not going > to be around forever; any small part we can play in > extending it's lifespan will be a great achievement. A nice aspiration! Of course the intent is good (I think) and (if so) will have good results--but the saasana is doomed and no 'we' to play any part in saving it, in my opinion--except in a dream lasting only an instant. mike 23879 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > _____________ Nice to see your photo. Icaro. We have another great friend from Brazil, Leonardo , who writes here occasionally. I think I would like it, living there.. RobertK 23880 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections on Zolag web Nina: "Dear all, > Alan has now put A. Sujin's Perfections on Zolag > web: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/" ------------------------------------------------ Downloaded! Thanx Nina! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23881 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings rjkjp1: " Nice to see your photo. Icaro. We have another great > friend from Brazil, > Leonardo , who writes here occasionally. > I think I would like it, living there.." ---------------------------------------------------- What a shame! Drinking Witte Rum and defiling the Path, the precepts, everything on Buddhism... Even Cunda The Smith couldn´t handle a candle for me... Shame Shame > RobertK ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23882 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings rjkjp1: " Nice to see your photo. Icaro. We have another great > friend from Brazil, > Leonardo , who writes here occasionally. > I think I would like it, living there.." ---------------------------------------------------- What a shame! Drinking Witte Rum and defiling the Path, the precepts, everything on Buddhism... Even Cunda The Smith couldn´t handle a candle for me... Shame Shame Shame! But presently (I swear!!!) I´ve quited off such alcoholics!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23883 From: Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 5:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Thanks Kom, Well said. Bearing in mind that we will be analyzing these terms in detail latter, does anyone have anything to add or a question? Larry 23884 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 6:43pm Subject: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? hi, I was just wondering what everyones thoughts were on this. Dukkha by Gotama is defined as: "Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." There is no question as to whether the above is dukkha. But what about solitude? (which he suggests to cultivate) Is it also not dukkha? And what about the absence of love, company and friendship? Is it not dukkha? nori 23885 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 6:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Nori, ----- Original Message ----- From: norakat147 To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 6:43 PM Subject: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? > But what about solitude? (which he suggests to cultivate) > Is it also not dukkha? I think not--unpleasant feeling arising with aversion to the idea of solitude is certainly dukkha, though--easy to see this. Lots of subtler dukkha with, for example, attachment to solitude with pleasant feeling--still dukkha, even though pleasant. > And what about the absence of love, company and friendship? > Is it not dukkha? Isn't it just as in your quote?: "...separation from the loved is dukkha..." mike 23886 From: Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi, Mike (and Nori) - In a message dated 8/2/03 9:59:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > > Hi Nori, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: norakat147 > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 6:43 PM > Subject: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and > friendship? > > >But what about solitude? (which he suggests to cultivate) > >Is it also not dukkha? > > I think not--unpleasant feeling arising with aversion to the idea of > solitude is certainly dukkha, though--easy to see this. Lots of subtler > dukkha with, for example, attachment to solitude with pleasant > feeling--still dukkha, even though pleasant. > > >And what about the absence of love, company and friendship? > >Is it not dukkha? > > Isn't it just as in your quote?: "...separation from the loved is > dukkha..." > > mike > ==================================== As I see it, solitude, being a conditioned dhamma, is dukkha in the sense of being ultimately unsatisfying and of being unworthy of desire or clinging. Solitude can be very useful, and it makes sense to seek it out. But craving it when it is absent is suffering, clinging to it when present is suffering, and finally losing it when it passes, which it will, is suffering, and that loss, itself, makes solitude ultimately unsatisfying. When it is present, solitude is pleasant, but still it is dukkha. All suffering is gone, totally and permanently, only when all ignorance, craving, and aversion are uprooted. At that point, still no conditioned dhamma satisfies, but neither does it disappoint. There is, at that point, a perfect and permanent satisfaction independent of the presence or absence of any particular condition or conditions, because freedom has been realized. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23887 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Howard and Nori, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? > Hi, Mike (and Nori) - > > In a message dated 8/2/03 9:59:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > mlnease@z... writes: > > > > > Hi Nori, > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: norakat147 > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 6:43 PM > > Subject: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and > > friendship? > > > > >But what about solitude? (which he suggests to cultivate) > > >Is it also not dukkha? > > > > I think not--unpleasant feeling arising with aversion to the idea of > > solitude is certainly dukkha, though--easy to see this. Lots of subtler > > dukkha with, for example, attachment to solitude with pleasant > > feeling--still dukkha, even though pleasant. > > > > >And what about the absence of love, company and friendship? > > >Is it not dukkha? > > > > Isn't it just as in your quote?: "...separation from the loved is > > dukkha..." > > > > mike > > > ==================================== > As I see it, solitude, being a conditioned dhamma, is dukkha in the > sense of being ultimately unsatisfying and of being unworthy of desire or > clinging. Solitude can be very useful, and it makes sense to seek it out. But > craving it when it is absent is suffering, clinging to it when present is suffering, > and finally losing it when it passes, which it will, is suffering, and that > loss, itself, makes solitude ultimately unsatisfying. When it is present, > solitude is pleasant, but still it is dukkha. I take all your points, except that I think that solitude it a concept (maybe you wouldn't disagree). Like many concepts, it can, I agree, be incredibly useful--but most of the time is the object of aversion or attachment. > All suffering is gone, totally and permanently, only when all > ignorance, craving, and aversion are uprooted. At that point, still no conditioned > dhamma satisfies, but neither does it disappoint. There is, at that point, a > perfect and permanent satisfaction independent of the presence or absence of any > particular condition or conditions, because freedom has been realized. It's just my own concept of nibbaana, but I think of it as being free of satisfaction or dissatisfaction. I think our only real point of disagreement might be 'permanent'. Always nice to hear from you, Howard. mike 23888 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] proximate cause of panna. Dear Jim and Larry That is right.The Vis. XIV, 143 gives non-bewilderment as manifestation. Here it does not mention the proximate cause. Nina. op 02-08-2003 15:01 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > The Pali word for non-perplexity is asammoha. Other possible > translations that come to mind are non-bewilderment and non-confusion > (~Naa.namoli has non-delusion). I checked the Pali of P.M. Tin's > translation and it is clear that he has made a translation mistake. > 'proximate cause' should be corrected to 'manifestation' > (paccupa.t.thaana). 23889 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear Mike, See Vis. p. 256 (VIII, 39). One of my favorites, the poem: Life, person, pleasure, pain- just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by... op 02-08-2003 17:27 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > ".in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is extremely short, being > only as much as the occurence of one single conscious moment. When that > consciousness has ceased the being is said to have ceased." 23890 From: suzakico Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 Thank you and Robert for the comments. As I could not fathom going back to read many posts at least at this moment, your summary was certainly helpful. Moreover, I appreciate the environment that was created in this sangha to share, facilitate, or clarify points for everyone?fs benefit regardless of their background. As for the way of posting the file, since there again was another comment, here are few ways to look at: 1) policy of this group, economy of server space, and reading speed in favor of trimming to the ?gessential?h 2) completeness of the file so that if there was a need to go back, it is easy to go back as opposed to figure out what was and what was not omitted. 3) ease of responding from the view point of the commentator, e.g, Nina. In my view, I did not want to pinpoint to the narrow area, thus sacrificing the potential of receiving the comment in wider scope. Perhaps, I can think of more different viewpoints. The point is that I just hope we do not create a bureaucracy but to deal with the task at hand. Or, if anyone would like to volunteer to coordinate how to proceed from here, please do so. Certainly, I do not wish to disturb the flow of discussion in this group as I mentioned in my first post. Sincerely, Kio 23891 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Mike It was in discussing nirodha-samapatthi ('attainment of extinction') that we came to the conclusion that it applied only to the arahant and anagami. Jhana as a pleasant abiding applies to any being, as far as I know. Sometimes the different English translations for the Pali terms lead to confusion (I can't think off-hand what the Pali is for 'pleasant abiding'). Thanks for all your good quotes of late. I'm appreciating them. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Friends, > > Sorry, I've lost the thread where we were discussing this. I'd > understood > someone to've said that 'a pleasant abiding here and now' referred > to jhaana > for an arahant only. 23892 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Hi Mike, Nina, Larry & All, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Friends, > ".in the ultimate sense the life moment of beings is extremely short, > being > only as much as the occurence of one single conscious moment. When that > consciousness has ceased the being is said to have ceased." ...... This is one of my favourite quotes as well. Here’s another one with a reference to asammoha-sampaja~n~na for Larry. “Herein, what single person moves forward? Or to what single person does the moving forward belong? For in the highest sense there is only a going of elements, a standing of elements, a sitting of elements, a lyind down of elements. For in each portion, together with the materiality, “‘Tis another consciousness that rises, another consciousness that ceases; Like to a river’s (flowing) stream that occurs in unbroken succession” (DAi193,MAi261;SAiii190) Thus this “dlear comprehension through non-delusion”(asammoha-sampaja~n~na) is the not being deluded about moving forward and so on.” Metta, Sarah ====== 23893 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 1:43am Subject: Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka Dear Group, I don't know if anyone else has experienced this - you think you have the basics of buddhism under your belt, and then someone asks you a question and in trying to articulate what you think you know, you realise you didn't have a sure knowledge base at all. This afternoon was a monthly Dhamma afternoon usually attended by four or five friends. At one point, I was asked if accumulations were conditions or kamma (perhaps they meant both kamma and vipaka). Fortunately, they didn't expect an absolutely correct answer ... which is just as well... What do you reckon? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 23894 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karma and reincarnation Peter A belated hello from me (I'm usually running well behind in my posts), and thanks for these interesting questions. I'd like to give my perspective on this difficult area. --- vajramantra wrote: ... > Is it possible to actually experience the law of karma and > reincarnation through the practice of meditation? It is said that through development of insight (the wisdom that sees dhammas as they truly are) there can be an understanding of the conditioning factors for dhammas, including the conditioning factor of kamma. > I mean, Buddhism is > known as a dogma-free spiritual system, still, when we look around, > we often see that good people suffer while bad people rejoyce. I > know > this is just the surface, and we always hear from teachers that > karma > does work, even if we do not see it. But this is still a kind of > faith, and Buddha taught that we should not accept something just > because it comes from somebody we respect, but we should carefully > analyze and examine whether the teaching is correct or not. Correct. So regardless of how something is presented to us, we know that it is not to be taken 'on faith', and it is up to us to view it accordingly. As I see it, the fact that there are instances of good people suffering and bad people enjoying life doesn't prove or disprove anything. What are your thoughts on this? So how > can one examine whether karma and reincarnation are facts one can > experience and not only something we - as Buddhists - are supposed > to > accept? I hope there is an answer that goes beyond "it must be true > because Buddha said so". Our ability to confirm something by direct experience is of course limited by the degree to which direct understanding of dhammas has been developed, so there is no use in aspiring to proof of things that are beyond us ;-)). We can, however, consider whether what the Buddha said about anything (e.g., kamma) is consistent with our experience or not, and we may thereby come to be a kind of tentative acceptance (this would be something that is neither a 'belief' on the one hand nor true understanding on the other). One other point to consider. I think you mention in a later post the problem of doubt and confusion about kamma etc. Doubts and confusion are inevitable as long as understanding has not been fully developed, so we need to get used to the idea of such experiences as simply another manifestation of the ignorance and wrong view that we know to be part of our latent tendencies. In a word, patience. But it's difficult to be patient unless there is also some confidence in the truth of what we have heard (Rob M's point, I think). Jon 23895 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] My realization on Compassion; How to love those who hate you Nori Welcome to the list from me. Thanks for sharing these personal thoughts and for your earlier questions/comments). No, your verses are not corny at all. I think they echo sentiments that are expressed in the teachings. Thanks for the reminders. We are all 'hypochrites', and probably moreso than we even realise! Of course, each person has his/her own way of 'reasoning' about these things. Allow me to mention the thoughts that came to mind on your original post. > - If it is the case that entities that make bad/evil actions go to > places of deprivation, the lower realms including that of lower > life > forms (i.e. animals used for food or skin, insects, unfortunate > humans) then how do I justify compassion in my mind for them? What > is the line of reasoning I can use? Do they not deserve their fates? J: Suffering is still suffering, no matter who experiences it or why. And in the ultimate sense, all suffering is self-inflicted in that it is rooted in one's ignorance, and that applies both to the person who knows that his acts are going to harm another and to the person who doesn’t know that. > Since I cannot directly percieve the law of kamma I do not know > what to feel when I for example: decide whether to eat chicken for > dinner or refrain from eating chicken. J: As Sarah mentioned, there is no compassion involved in refraining from eating [already dead] chicken, since there is no chicken that is suffering at that moment. (Similarly, eating chicken does not involve breach of the precept against taking life; only actually taking life, encouraging another to do so, or rejoicing in another doing so, does.) Just my perspective. Jon --- norakat147 wrote: > hi all, ... > This is: > > My realization on Love and Hate: > > Among the things I hate, are those who hate, > yet I hate (those who hate). > > Those who hate are born from hate, > yet I still hate (those who hate). > > What I love, is those who love, > yet I do not always love. > > Those who love are born of love, > yet I do not always love. > > ---- > Pretty hypocritical of me to have enmity toward those who hate; to > those who cause extreme suffering to me and others. > > Hope it doesn't sound corny ...was profound for me. > > > Just thought I'd share that. > > > metta, > nori 23896 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! I'm Gene Sokol Gene Thanks for joining the group, and for introducing yourself. It sounds like you'll be able to contribute much. Please feel free to come in at any time. Do you have anything you'd like to share with us on the subject of the causation/cessation of thought-moments? And may I ask whether the causation/cessation of dhammas other than thought-moments interests you also? Jon --- g_sokol wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends > > My name is Gene Sokol. I've been interested in Buddhism ever since > I took a course in it and decided to major in religion at the > University of Georgia back in the '80's. I studied the major > religions, but Buddhism impressed me the most with its depth of > study in & about the human mind. > > I'm thankful to have stumbled upon this group and look forward to > learning and sharing with all involved. > > The Dhamma is of great interest to me because I want to understand > more fully the workings of the mind & the causation/cessation of > thought-moments. > > Thank you for allowing me to join this group! 23897 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nori and Robert, > > Thanks for your thoughts on concentration. Any ideas on why > concentration is called tranquility? "Tranquility" doesn't seem to > be part of the official definition of concentration. I have been following your 'concentration' thread with interest. I hope you don't mind if I butt in with a couple of observations. The question you ask here is a difficult one, and I think it depends on what Pali terms you have in mind. The English term 'tranquility' is used as a translation of both 'samatha' (as in samatha bhavana, the development of tranquility) and 'passadhi' (the mental factor that is part of the distinctive characteristic of each kusala citta), and concentration is used for both 'samadhi' and 'ekaggata'. So my short answer would be that tranquility and concentration are not exactly synonyms, although the 2 terms are sometimes used interchangeably. As I said, tranquility is a mental factor (cetasika) associated with wholesome consciousness moment (kusala citta), and is particularly the factor that is developed in the case of kusala performed through the mind-door, i.e., when the object is 1 of the 40 objects of samatha (hence samatha bhavana/development of tranquility). Concentration can mean either the momentary mental factor ekaggata, or the fact of consciousness taking the same object for many successive moments. For convenience, let's call the former 'momentary concentration' and the latter 'sustained concentration'. Momentary concentration is a mental factor that arises with every citta. It is a 'dhamma' (conditioned phenomena). Sustained concentration is not a necessary factor for any citta. It describes a particular situation/sequence of dhammas. Sustained concentration is not a *necessary* factor for samatha bhavana (the development of tranquility). For example, reflecting on the teachings with kusala citta accompanied by panna would be an instance of samatha bhavana. Sustained concentration is, as I understand it, necessary for the development of samatha to the degree of jhana, but it is not given in the texts as a specific factor of jhana or anything like that, as far as I know (corrections welcome). On this point, note that those who have attained mastery of the jhanas can enter and leave the jhanas at will, or have alternate moments of jhana and non-jhana, without the need for sustained concentration preceding the jhana moment. The question of what is the factor that causes/allows sustained concentration to occur has come up for discussion before (I remember Howard raising it on occasion). From memory, the relevant factor here is vitakka, the mental factor that has the function of striking at the object. In sustained concentration, vitakka strikes at the same object successively, as I understand it. I hope this helps. Jon 23898 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Jonothan Abbott: Jonothan Abbott: "Concentration can mean either the momentary mental > factor ekaggata, > or the fact of consciousness taking the same object > for many > successive moments. For convenience, let's call the > former > 'momentary concentration' and the latter 'sustained > concentration'." ------------------------------------------------------ Butting in... Correct. Taking on the Pali Dictionary of the Pali Text Society for "Samatha" we get "calm, quietude of heart" and "yanika who makes quietude his vehicle, devoted to quietude, a kind of Arahant". In English, "Tranquility" fits well as meaning. ------------------------------------------------- Jonothan Abbott: "Sustained concentration is, as I understand it, > necessary for the > development of samatha to the degree of jhana, but > it is not given in > the texts as a specific factor of jhana or anything > like that, as far > as I know (corrections welcome)." ------------------------------------------------------ At Yoga´s teachings (not the aim of Buddhistic Doctrine), concentration or "ekaggata" is the first step to reach Dhyana (Jhana): one applies continuous efforts on concentration and, after some time, Jhana or Samatha comes naturally. But there´s not so easy. The reason is that ekaggata has different dhammas, or sequence of dhammas. The jhana´s applicant perhaps ought to make a very continuous effort on concentration to reach such results. Corrections welcome too! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23899 From: vajramantra Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karma and reincarnation Dear Jon, Thanks for your answer. You wrote: "As I see it, the fact that there are instances of good people suffering and bad people enjoying life doesn't prove or disprove anything. What are your thoughts on this?" That is what makes most people reject every kind of spiritual process. They say, "If there is God, why does he allow all these injustices to happen?" or "If there is a law of karma, why do we see good people suffer and bad people enjoy life?". It is easy to say, "Oh, it is karma" when someone else's house is burning, but when we suffer, it is a lot more difficult to ease ourselves with theories... Also, when we see starving children on TV, saying that "They must have been very bad guys in their previous lives"... I don't know... As you said, unless I attain the capacity to directly percieve how karma works, I cannot but believe... Otherwise the whole existence would be a meaningless chaos ruled by coincidence. Peter 23900 From: Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi, Mike - In a message dated 8/3/03 12:04:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > > As I see it, solitude, being a conditioned dhamma, is dukkha in the > >sense of being ultimately unsatisfying and of being unworthy of desire or > >clinging. Solitude can be very useful, and it makes sense to seek it out. > But > >craving it when it is absent is suffering, clinging to it when present is > suffering, > >and finally losing it when it passes, which it will, is suffering, and > that > >loss, itself, makes solitude ultimately unsatisfying. When it is present, > >solitude is pleasant, but still it is dukkha. > > I take all your points, except that I think that solitude it a concept > (maybe you wouldn't disagree). Like many concepts, it can, I agree, be > incredibly useful--but most of the time is the object of aversion or > attachment. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. It is a concept. It does subsume many interrelated actualities, though. Thus it's a well grounded concept - and an important one. Of course a specific sense of 'solitude', namely "citta-viveka" or "mental seclusion/detachment" is an actuality, a cetasika. ------------------------------------------------------- > > All suffering is gone, totally and permanently, only when all > >ignorance, craving, and aversion are uprooted. At that point, still no > conditioned > >dhamma satisfies, but neither does it disappoint. There is, at that point, > a > >perfect and permanent satisfaction independent of the presence or absence > of any > >particular condition or conditions, because freedom has been realized. > > It's just my own concept of nibbaana, but I think of it as being free of > satisfaction or dissatisfaction. I think our only real point of > disagreement might be 'permanent'. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. I know what you mean. One balks at saying that satisfaction could be permanent. Let's just consider that a manner of speaking. The point is that there are no conditions in effect, and there will be none ever, that will result in a state of non-equanimity for the arahant. In brief, it is not really an error to say that the satisfaction (or equanimity) is permanent - never will there be dissatisfaction. Don't forget: Nibbana is the end of dukkha! -------------------------------------------------- > > Always nice to hear from you, Howard. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Likewise, Mike. ----------------------------------------------------- > > mike > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23901 From: Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka Hi, Christine - In a message dated 8/3/03 4:43:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > I don't know if anyone else has experienced this - you think you have > the basics of buddhism under your belt, and then someone asks you a > question and in trying to articulate what you think you know, you > realise you didn't have a sure knowledge base at all. > > This afternoon was a monthly Dhamma afternoon usually attended by > four or five friends. At one point, I was asked if accumulations > were conditions or kamma (perhaps they meant both kamma and vipaka). > Fortunately, they didn't expect an absolutely correct answer ... > which is just as well... > > What do you reckon? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time > ========================== Well, while I hear a lot of folks talking a lot about "accumulations," I never do hear much in the way of details. I tend to think of accumulations as perpetuated conditions that are not kamma vipaka in the sense of fruited kamma, but rather are kammic traces, mental inclinations/habits/tendencies/patterns, which serve as kammic seeds, the "carriers" of kammic energy, and which blossom into kamma vipaka in the presence of appropriate supportive conditions. So, for example, it is an accumulation coming to the fore at death which determines the realm of rebirth. There were volitional acts (kamma) which left that kammic trace (accumulation), and with the coming together of certain (internal) conditions at death, that kammic trace/seed blossomed into the kamma vipaka of birth into a particular context. This is the way I think of it. Of course, I could be all wrong! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23902 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding > Mike > > It was in discussing nirodha-samapatthi ('attainment of extinction') > that we came to the conclusion that it applied only to the arahant > and anagami. Jhana as a pleasant abiding applies to any being, as > far as I know. Sometimes the different English translations for the > Pali terms lead to confusion (I can't think off-hand what the Pali is > for 'pleasant abiding'). I don't know either--I'll try to figure it out later today. The paali would be good to know. This may also have some bearing on my question some time back about whether, in jhaana based on the brahma vihaaras (vihaara=an abode; a dwelling place; mode of life; passing the time), there might be said to be momentary rebirth in (or of) the brahma vihaaras (which may also be 'a pleasant abiding here and now'). mike 23903 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka Hi Chris, Here are a couple of things I accumulated(!) while trying to figure out the same thing. I included 'anusaya' as I think they accumulate too and are, I think, what Khun Sujin usually means when she says 'accumulations'. Hope this is of some use: aayuuhana (karmic) 'accumulation', is a name used in the commentarial literature for the wholesome and unwholesome volitional activities (karma, q.v.) or karma-formations (sankhára; s. paticca-samuppáda), being the bases of future rebirth. 'Accumulation', is a name for the karma-formations, and signifies those volitions (cetaná) which arise at the performance of a karma, first while thinking 'I will give alms', and then while actually giving alms (e.g.) for one month or a year. The volition, however, at the time when one is handing the alms over to the recipient; is called karma-process (kamma-bhava, s. Vis.M. XVII, IX, X). Or, the volitions during the first six impulsive-moments (javana, q.v.) depending on one and the same state of advertence (ávajjana, s. viññána-kicca), these are called the karma-formations, whilst the 7th impulsive moment is called the karma-process (kamma-bhava).... Or, each volition is called 'karma-process' and the accumulation connected with it, 'karma-formation'. " (Vis.M. XVII). Cf. paticca-samuppáda (2, 10) - (App.). anusaya the 7 'proclivities', inclinations, or tendencies are: sensuous greed (káma-rága, s. samyojana), grudge (patigha), speculative opinion (ditthi, q.v.), sceptical doubt (vicikicchá, q.v.), conceit (mána, q.v.), craving for continued existence (bhavarága), ignorance (avijjá, q.v.) (D. 33; A. VII, 11, 12). "These things are called 'proclivities' since, in consequence of their pertinacity, they ever and again tend to become the conditions for the arising of ever new sensuous greed, etc.'' (Vis.M. XXII, 60). Yam. VII, first determines in which beings such and such proclivities exist, and which proclivities, and with regard to what, and in which sphere of existence. Thereafter it gives an explanation concerning their overcoming, their penetration, etc. Cf. Guide VI (vii). According to Kath. several ancient Buddhist schools erroneously held the opinion that the anusayas, as such, meant merely latent, hence karmically neutral qualities, which however Contradicts the Theraváda conception. Cf. Guide V, 88, 108, 139. Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by NYANATILOKA ----- Original Message ----- From: christine_forsyth To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 1:43 AM Subject: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka > Dear Group, > > I don't know if anyone else has experienced this - you think you have > the basics of buddhism under your belt, and then someone asks you a > question and in trying to articulate what you think you know, you > realise you didn't have a sure knowledge base at all. > > This afternoon was a monthly Dhamma afternoon usually attended by > four or five friends. At one point, I was asked if accumulations > were conditions or kamma (perhaps they meant both kamma and vipaka). > Fortunately, they didn't expect an absolutely correct answer ... > which is just as well... > > What do you reckon? 23904 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 9:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 7:29 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? > Hi, Mike - > > In a message dated 8/3/03 12:04:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > mlnease@z... writes: > > > > As I see it, solitude, being a conditioned dhamma, is dukkha in the > > >sense of being ultimately unsatisfying and of being unworthy of desire or > > >clinging. Solitude can be very useful, and it makes sense to seek it out. > > But > > >craving it when it is absent is suffering, clinging to it when present is > > suffering, > > >and finally losing it when it passes, which it will, is suffering, and > > that > > >loss, itself, makes solitude ultimately unsatisfying. When it is present, > > >solitude is pleasant, but still it is dukkha. > > > > I take all your points, except that I think that solitude it a concept > > (maybe you wouldn't disagree). Like many concepts, it can, I agree, be > > incredibly useful--but most of the time is the object of aversion or > > attachment. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree. It is a concept. It does subsume many interrelated > actualities, though. Thus it's a well grounded concept - and an important one. Of course > a specific sense of 'solitude', namely "citta-viveka" or "mental > seclusion/detachment" is an actuality, a cetasika. > ------------------------------------------------------- Right-- > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > All suffering is gone, totally and permanently, only when all > > >ignorance, craving, and aversion are uprooted. At that point, still no > > conditioned > > >dhamma satisfies, but neither does it disappoint. There is, at that point, > > a > > >perfect and permanent satisfaction independent of the presence or absence > > of any > > >particular condition or conditions, because freedom has been realized. > > > > It's just my own concept of nibbaana, but I think of it as being free of > > satisfaction or dissatisfaction. I think our only real point of > > disagreement might be 'permanent'. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Mmm. I know what you mean. One balks at saying that satisfaction could > be permanent. Let's just consider that a manner of speaking. The point is > that there are no conditions in effect, and there will be none ever, that will > result in a state of non-equanimity for the arahant. In brief, it is not really > an error to say that the satisfaction (or equanimity) is permanent - never > will there be dissatisfaction. Don't forget: Nibbana is the end of dukkha! > -------------------------------------------------- Yes, I'd say 'done' or 'finished' rather than 'permanent'--but I think we're both getting at the same thing. 23905 From: lbidd1 Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 10:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Jon and Icaro, I thought of the two tranquility cetasikas too, but I think they signify the difference between kusala (wholesome) concentration and akusala concentration, these two cetasikas being among the 19 "beautiful universal" cetasikas which are present with every kusala citta. The absence of these two is the reason my concentration is untranquil, I think. Nina said the reason there is only one object in a citta process is because of one-pointed cetasika. This seems reasonable to me. However, I think the tendency to carry an object over to another process is also a function of one-pointed cetasika. For example, the object of a five-door process becoming the object of a series of mind-door processes. I agree there is a big difference between absorption concentration and the concentration that is the proximate cause of panna but I think the "repeating" function of one-pointed cetasika is the same, if differing in degree. I agree vitakka and vicara play a significant role in both jhana and insight processes. Is this where clarity comes from? The concentration that is the proximate cause of panna is also called tranquility in the expression "tranquility and insight". I can't really put my finger on the reason for this. Maybe it's the presence of the Beautiful cetasikas. Larry 19 Beautiful Universal cetasikas: faith, mindfulness, shame, fear of wrong doing, non-greed, non-hatred, neutrality of mind, tranquility of mental body (feeling, perception, mental formations), tranquility of consciousness, lightness of mental body, lightness of consciousness, malleability of mental body, malleability of consciousness, wieldiness of mental body, wieldiness of consciousness, proficiency of mental body, proficiency of consciousness, rectitude of mental body, rectitude of consciousness --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Larry > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nori and Robert, > > > > Thanks for your thoughts on concentration. Any ideas on why > > concentration is called tranquility? "Tranquility" doesn't seem to > > be part of the official definition of concentration. > > I have been following your 'concentration' thread with interest. I > hope you don't mind if I butt in with a couple of observations. > > The question you ask here is a difficult one, and I think it depends > on what Pali terms you have in mind. The English term 'tranquility' > is used as a translation of both 'samatha' (as in samatha bhavana, > the development of tranquility) and 'passadhi' (the mental factor > that is part of the distinctive characteristic of each kusala citta), > and concentration is used for both 'samadhi' and 'ekaggata'. So my > short answer would be that tranquility and concentration are not > exactly synonyms, although the 2 terms are sometimes used > interchangeably. > > As I said, tranquility is a mental factor (cetasika) associated with > wholesome consciousness moment (kusala citta), and is particularly > the factor that is developed in the case of kusala performed through > the mind-door, i.e., when the object is 1 of the 40 objects of > samatha (hence samatha bhavana/development of tranquility). > > Concentration can mean either the momentary mental factor ekaggata, > or the fact of consciousness taking the same object for many > successive moments. For convenience, let's call the former > 'momentary concentration' and the latter 'sustained concentration'. > > Momentary concentration is a mental factor that arises with every > citta. It is a 'dhamma' (conditioned phenomena). Sustained > concentration is not a necessary factor for any citta. It describes > a particular situation/sequence of dhammas. > > Sustained concentration is not a *necessary* factor for samatha > bhavana (the development of tranquility). For example, reflecting on > the teachings with kusala citta accompanied by panna would be an > instance of samatha bhavana. > > Sustained concentration is, as I understand it, necessary for the > development of samatha to the degree of jhana, but it is not given in > the texts as a specific factor of jhana or anything like that, as far > as I know (corrections welcome). On this point, note that those who > have attained mastery of the jhanas can enter and leave the jhanas at > will, or have alternate moments of jhana and non-jhana, without the > need for sustained concentration preceding the jhana moment. > > The question of what is the factor that causes/allows sustained > concentration to occur has come up for discussion before (I remember > Howard raising it on occasion). From memory, the relevant factor > here is vitakka, the mental factor that has the function of striking > at the object. In sustained concentration, vitakka strikes at the > same object successively, as I understand it. > > I hope this helps. > > Jon 23906 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka p.s. p.s. Here's something excellent RobK posted recently--I cleaned it up and reformatted it a little for my own use--hope I got all the paali OK. Aayuuhana.m (accumulation) in pa.ticcasamuppaada (dependent origination) is saòkhaara (volitional formations), specifically cetanaa. I wrote a little about this before: The Mahavagga tika (subcommentary) to the Diigha Nikaaya explains: "Aayuuhana.m sampi.n.dana.m, sampayuttadhammaana.m attano kiccaanuruupataaya raasiikara.nanti attho". "Accumulating (aayuuhana.m) is the adding together or heaping up of its associated phenomena in accordance with its own function". sampi.n.dana.m - adding together rasi - heap kicca - function Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, where aayuuhana (accumulate) occurs in complex phrases (from Bodhi, 'The Great Discourse on Causation', p 65) about Pa.ticcasamuppaadda: "Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness." ("Gambhiiro, saòkhaaraana.m abhisaòkhara.nAAYUUHANAsaraagaviraaga.t.tho.") ".and [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, and throwing beings into the different modes of origin" (".bhavassa AAYUUHANAAbhisaòkhara.nayo nigati.thitinivaasesu khipana.t.tho") It is an important aspect of Dhamma that is mentioned quite often in the texts. We shouldn't expect it to be easy to understand: "Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING." Robert Kirkpatrick ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka > ----- Original Message ----- > From: christine_forsyth > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 1:43 AM > Subject: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka > > > Dear Group, > > > > I don't know if anyone else has experienced this - you think you have > > the basics of buddhism under your belt, and then someone asks you a > > question and in trying to articulate what you think you know, you > > realise you didn't have a sure knowledge base at all. > > > > This afternoon was a monthly Dhamma afternoon usually attended by > > four or five friends. At one point, I was asked if accumulations > > were conditions or kamma (perhaps they meant both kamma and vipaka). > > Fortunately, they didn't expect an absolutely correct answer ... > > which is just as well... > > > > What do you reckon? 23907 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 Dear Kio, op 02-08-2003 09:14 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > KIO: ((Why self first? Perhaps, depends on the background?)) As Robert K. explained, wrong view is eradicated first. I can add a few remarks. Attachment to sense objects can be temporarily subdued by jhana, but jhanas do not last and after the jhanacittas have fallen away it arises again. When wrong view, such as taking realities for self and mine is still there, there is no way to eradicate attachment. At first we may not realize our wrong view, we may not realize that it is very harmful. It is essential to begin to see that we tend to take our experiences and our body for self and mine. When we consider attachment, aversion, all realities, as very important, as mine and self, we are completely involved with my lobha, my dosa. Whereas, when we learn to see akusala as mere elements we will take them less personal, at least on the level of theoretical understanding. We learn that they are conditioned, beyond control. They arise when there are the right conditions for them, but we can learn to have more understanding of them. The development of this kind of understanding is a long process, and only later on it can be directly understood that lobha and dosa arise just for a moment and then fall away immediately, thus, that they are impermanent. What falls away immediately, can that be possessed by a self, can it be mine? The sotapanna is without wrong view, but he still has lobha and dosa. However, he does not take them for self. Lobha and dosa cannot condition very bad deeds anymore which could produce as results an unhappy rebirth. When we reflect on this, it will be clearer that wrong view is to be eradicated first. It can also remind us not to delay the development of understanding now, of whatever reality appears, be it rupa, or any kind of nama, akusala included. This is very urgent. Appreciating your interest, Nina. 23908 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 11:32am Subject: FW: a correction Dear all, Jim pointed out a mistake in Atthasalini. On Zolag there is a special place for corrections. You can also correct it in my book Cetasikas. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 06:28:56 +0200 Aan: Gwyn Davies Onderwerp: Re: perfections and attachm. Dear Alan, Thank you very much, I announced it already. I have a correction now for Cetasikas, p. 321, definition of understanding by Atthasalini: change into . non-perplexity as manifestation. This was a mistake in the Expositor from which I quoted(I, p. 162) and corrected by a Pali expert. Nina. 23909 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] glass with rum. Dear Icaro, you make me laugh. A. Sujin would never say: don't drink white rum. Follow your accumulations, but at the same time, a moment of understanding can slip in. You have to know your accumulations, just as you are. Realities that are kusala, akusala. pleasant or unpleasant, they all have to be known in the end. They are all dhammas, realities without a self or soul, that is the main point. I do not go to webs and did not see your photo, but I see your writings, the best image of a person. Photo is only visible object, that is all. Nina. op 03-08-2003 01:30 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > > What a shame! > Drinking Witte Rum and defiling the Path, the > precepts, everything on Buddhism... 23910 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Dear Larry and Kom, op 03-08-2003 02:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks Kom, > > Well said. Bearing in mind that we will be analyzing these terms in > detail latter, does anyone have anything to add or a question? N: Yes, I always like it when Kom adds something, gives us extra reminders. I saved his post. I quote from it: This is an important point: We like to jump, we find that the development is always too slow. Kom, do keep reminding us, with appreciation, Nina. 23911 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 1:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] glass with rum. Dear Nina, Nina: "Dear Icaro, you make me laugh. A. Sujin would never > say: don't drink white > rum." ------------------------------------------------------ Oh, well...fortunately I´ve quited off such things as Rum, whisky, wine...and Cachaça! ------------------------------------------------------ Nina: "Follow your accumulations, but at the same > time, a moment of > understanding can slip in. You have to know your > accumulations, just as you > are. Realities that are kusala, akusala. pleasant or > unpleasant, they all > have to be known in the end." ----------------------------------------------------- Right on point! Kamma´s accumulations have a definite start line. They bond us and grow...but this can be contained or even be extinguished. One of the main mistakes people do at this time is bear in mind thoughts as " I am a doer, I am a knower" and so on. In these years studying the Abhidhamma, the interplay between Citta and the Cetasikas, nama and rupa, to build on Reality, conjoined with the "rhythm" of the first chapter (in Pali) of the Dhammasangani fascinated me very, very much! Your works solo and with Mrs. A. Sujin, the "Introduction of Abhidhamma" posted here... and my own efforts on trying to read and understand Pali really raised up my mind to a better viewpoint about the ultimate teachings of Buddha. As I usually say, paraphrasing Axl Rose, "There´s a lot goín´ on !!!" ---------------------------------------------------- Nina: "They are all dhammas, > realities without a self > or soul, that is the main point. > I do not go to webs and did not see your photo, but > I see your writings, the > best image of a person. Photo is only visible > object, that is all." ---------------------------------------------------- Please...please... if you decided to look at my photo posted here, first take a seat, breathe deeply and think on compassionately that perhaps Cunda The Smith was so ugly than me!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23912 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 1:13pm Subject: Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Nori, This is how I understand it: Solitude is dukkha and so is the absence of love, company and friendship. The five clinging-aggregates encompass all conditioned phenomena, things, events, situations, activities including birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair, association with the unbeloved, separation from the loved, not getting what is wanted, solitude, and the absence of love, company and friendship. However, solitude/living alone is extolled and/or encouraged in several places in the discourses.* So there seems to be a conflict: if solitude is dukkha, then why is it extolled and/or encouraged? Because as a way of practice, it is conducive to the cessation of dukkha. Peace, Victor * Train in solitude & the contemplative's task, Solitude is called sagacity. Alone, you truly delight & shine in the ten directions. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3- 11.html 305. He who sits alone, sleeps alone, and walks alone, who is strenuous and subdues himself alone, will find delight in the solitude of the forest. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/21.html One alone is like Brahma, two, like devas, three, like a village, more than that: a hullabaloo. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/theragatha/thag03.html# 8 185. Not despising, not harming, restraint according to the code of monastic discipline, moderation in food, dwelling in solitude, devotion to meditation -- this is the teaching of the Buddhas. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/14.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi, [snip] > > nori 23913 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry! Larry: "I thought of the two tranquility cetasikas too, but > I think they > signify the difference between kusala (wholesome) > concentration and > akusala concentration, these two cetasikas being > among the > 19 "beautiful universal" cetasikas which are present > with every > kusala citta. The absence of these two is the reason > my concentration > is untranquil, I think. Nina said the reason there > is only one object > in a citta process is because of one-pointed > cetasika." ------------------------------------------------------- Exact! If you keep you concentration practice with the thinking of "I am a doer, I am a knower, etc", only by fluke you could connect with the jhana. Right concentration is a conjoined aspect of Citta and the cetasikas... and that´s quite clear that the ekaggata -one-pointedness of mind - keep connections with the one-pointed cetasika. The interplay between Citta and cetasikas does all the show ! ------------------------------------------------------ Larry: "I agree there is a big difference between absorption > concentration > and the concentration that is the proximate cause of > panna but I > think the "repeating" function of one-pointed > cetasika is the same, > if differing in degree. I agree vitakka and vicara > play a significant > role in both jhana and insight processes. Is this > where clarity comes > from?" ----------------------------------------------------- It seems good to me. Vitakka and vicara make part of Jhana, because they ALWAYS enter into composition with consciousness - The six Particulars (pakinnaka: 8. vitakka - initial application 9. vicara - sustained application 10. viriya - effort 11. piti - pleasurable interest 12. chanda - desire-to-do 13. adhimokkha - deciding Only remembering that there´s no egoic activity at the sustained application. If the "repeating" function of one-pointed cetasika is the same, differing in degree" is really true, so there could have an aspect of Citta + cetasika assigned of it. ----------------------------------------------------- Larry: "I can't > really put my finger on the reason for this. Maybe > it's the presence > of the Beautiful cetasikas." ----------------------------------------------------- Perhaps so! Let´s see your list of beautiful cetasikas: ----------------------------------------------------- List: "19 Beautiful Universal cetasikas: faith, > mindfulness, shame, fear of > wrong doing, non-greed, non-hatred, neutrality of > mind, tranquility > of mental body (feeling, perception, mental > formations), tranquility > of consciousness, lightness of mental body, > lightness of > consciousness, malleability of mental body, > malleability of > consciousness, wieldiness of mental body, wieldiness > of > consciousness, proficiency of mental body, > proficiency of > consciousness, rectitude of mental body, rectitude > of consciousness" ------------------------------------------------------ (Obviosly it is not as simple as it seems... but add citta with any of these 19 cetasikas, with the appropriate nama and rupa. Metta, Ícaro > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23914 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 5:59pm Subject: Wisdom Dear Group, A sutta from anguttara Nikaya 6. Punakåñasuttam Again the most important. 002.06. Bhikkhus, these five are the powers. What five? The power of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Bhikkhus, of these five the most important and the one that holds together the rest is wisdom Just as the ridge pole is the most important and it is the one which holds together the rest of a gabled roof, in the same manner, of the powers of faith, effort mindfulness concentration and wisdom, the most important, and the one that holds together the rest is wisdom. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/002-balavaggo-e.htm RobertK 23915 From: Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Icaro: "If you keep you concentration practice with the thinking of "I am a doer, I am a knower, etc", only by fluke you could connect with the jhana." Hi Icaro, I agree and there is no real insight with the asssumption "I am the knower or doer". But if you remember to look (sati) for a doer or knower you might find there is nothing to find and no one to be happy about that. Larry 23916 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 8:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry and Icaro, Hope you'll pardon my butting in: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration > Icaro: "If you keep you concentration practice with the thinking of "I > am a doer, I am a knower, etc", only by fluke you could connect with the > jhana." > > Hi Icaro, > > I agree and there is no real insight with the asssumption "I am the > knower or doer". But if you remember to look (sati) for a doer or knower > you might find there is nothing to find and no one to be happy about > that. No one to remember or to look for a doer or knower and no one to find (as you say, Larry) there is nothing to find--and no one to be happy or unhappy about it. When these things are remembered they are only remembered by sa~n~naa, I think, when understood they are understood only by pa~n~naa, I think. Corrections welcomed. mike 23917 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 10:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear Sarah, There was for me a condition for aversion towards a particular person who misbehaved. Now this quote is helpful, and we see that when there is more understanding of elements there can be less grudge, and thus more opportunity for metta. Nina. op 03-08-2003 07:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > “It is another consciousness that rises, > another consciousness that ceases; > Like to a river’s (flowing) stream > that occurs in unbroken succession 23918 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 3, 2003 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Hi Nina, Beautiful quote wasn't it--with a grudge no understanding--with understanding, no grudge. Liberating in a mundane way, I think. patigha 1. In an ethical sense, it means: 'repugnance', grudge, resentment, anger, and is a synonym of vyápáda, 'ill-will' (s. nívarana) and dosa, 'hate' (s. múla). It is one of the proclivities (anusaya, q.v.). 2. '(Sense-) reaction'. Applied to five-sense cognition, p. occurs in the following contexts: (a) as patigha-saññá, 'perception of sense-reaction', said to be absent in the immaterial absorptions (s. jhána 5). Alternative renderings: resistance-perception, reflex-perception; (b) as patigha-samphassa, '(mental) impression caused by 5fold sensorial reaction' (D. 15); s. phassa; (c) as sappatigha-rúpa, 'reacting corporeality', and appatigha, 'not reacting', which is an Abhidhammic classification of corporeality, occurring in Dhs. 659, 1050. Sappatigha are called the physical sense-organs as reacting (or responding) to sense stimuli; and also the physical sense-objects as impinging (or making an impact) on the sense-organs. All other corporeality is appatigha, non-reacting and non-impinging. These 2 terms have been variously rendered as resistant and not, responding and not, with and without impact. And better than chanting hundreds of meaningless verses is one Dhamma-saying that on hearing brings peace. Dhp 102 mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear Sarah, There was for me a condition for aversion towards a particular person who misbehaved. Now this quote is helpful, and we see that when there is more understanding of elements there can be less grudge, and thus more opportunity for metta. Nina. op 03-08-2003 07:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > "It is another consciousness that rises, > another consciousness that ceases; > Like to a river's (flowing) stream > that occurs in unbroken succession 23919 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear Nina (Mike & All), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > There was for me a condition for aversion towards a particular person who misbehaved. Now this quote is helpful, and we see that when there is more understanding of elements there can be less grudge, and thus more opportunity for metta. > > “It is another consciousness that rises, > > another consciousness that ceases; > > Like to a river’s (flowing) stream > > that occurs in unbroken succession ..... S: I find the same with all these quotes reminding us that life just exists at this moment. All the stories, the dreams, the plans and ideas that seem so very real are just the fantasies, whilst this moment of consciousness arises and passes away. You reminded me of the first tape of discussion with K.Sujin that I listened to, which had such a dramatic effect on me at the time, when you wrote(to Kio): N: “We also stayed in Varanasi, in Hotel de Paris. When we were walking in the garden of that hotel, we heard a band with drums, and immediately we had an image of people marching and playing. A. Sujin explained that we build up stories on account of what we experience through the senses. Sound, hearing and thinking are ultimate realities, the stories we think of are concepts or ideas, different from ultimate realities. It is difficult to distinguish different realities, it is direct understanding, panna, that is able to do so. Panna cannot suddenly arise, it is gradually developed by studying, considering what we learn, discussing, asking questions. We may be thinking of ourselves and others, walking in the garden of Hotel de Paris, but if we die now, the story comes to an end. Actually, each citta that falls away is a moment of dying. With the citta that falls away, the story comes to an end.” S: When I returned to England, after living in the temple in Sri Lanka where I heard the tape for the first time, I’d listen to it and others over and over again. ‘Tor rueng’, I heard A.Sujin repeat the Thai, meaning 'following on the story'. ‘Tor rueng’, ‘tor rueng’.... we hear a sound and then there is the story of the band playing, the Hotel de Paris and the people sitting around in the garden. There’s just a moment of hearing and then thinking, following the story, usually with no awareness. Even as I listened to the words, I'd conjure up the picture of you all, sitting in the garden, discussing dhamma, with the band marching by in the background. Lobha sneaks in so quickly, even when we're listening to the dhamma. If we die now, the story comes to an end. In another post you referred to Vism X1, 121 where it refers to “arriving at wide open (conditions) in crowded (circumstances). As you mentioned, the footnote says: “This is an allusion to Mi, 179 etc ‘The process of existence in the round of rebirths, which is a very cramped place, is crowded by the defilements of craving and so on’(Pm 371)”. I followed the reference to Mi, 179. which refers to the ‘crowded and dusty’ household life, the ‘wide open’ life of one gone forth. We begin to understand the real meaning of ‘cramped’, ‘crowded’ and ‘dusty’. “Crowded by the defilements of craving and so on’. I’d like to repeat what you ou wrote some time ago about the deeper meaning of ‘bhikkhu’ (to Frank) because there are other threads on ‘solitude’ and living alone. ***** Nina: “First objects have to be seen as only elements, so that personality belief can be eradicated. This happens when the first stage of enlightenment is attained, and finally at the realization of arahatship all craving is left behind. All those who develop the eightfold Path are leading a life that is brahmacariyaa. In the Commentary to the satipa.t.thaanasutta (Ven Soma), <...> N: “In each sutta, be it the Migajalasutta, the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint, the Buddha speaks personally to us. He reminds us of our defilements at this moment. Remember, every sutta pertains to this moment. He exhorts us to develop understanding of "the all". Seeing is an experience, it is different from visible object and hardness which do not know anything. Everything can be the object of understanding, because whatever appears, it is only an element experienced through one of the six doors.” ****** S:As I think it’s relevant, I’d also like to quote from an earlier post I wrote on ‘Forest and Lone Dwelling’ in which I referred to the Thera Sutta (SN 11, 282): Sarah: “We often read in the suttas about groups of bhikkhus who gathered together, entered a village for alms together and so on. In the Thera Sutta, it seems a number of bhikkhus thought it was strange for Thera (his name) to live alone, go for alms alone, return alone, sit and walk alone and so they raised the issue with the Buddha. The Buddha summonsed Thera. Thera confirmed he lived and followed all these activities alone and also praised living alone. The Buddha didn’t disagree, but said (B.Bodhi transl., p721): "That is a way of dwelling alone, Elder, I do not deny this. But as to how dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail, listen to that and attend closely, I will speak." "Yes, venerable sir." "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual existence has been thoroughly removed.* It is in such a way, Elder, that dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, Liberated in the destruction of craving: I call that person ‘one who dwells alone.’ "** So there are the two meanings of ‘living alone'. For some by inclination or natural tendency (pakati or bokati in Thai)they will live alone in the first sense like Thera. However, we all have to learn to live alone without 'desire and lust' regardless of whether we're in the forest or the village, alone or with others. Of course, this is very similar to the Migajala Sutta which I like to quote and reflect on a lot. Only by understanding the sounds, odours, tactile objects, mental phenomena and other namas and rupas discussed can one’s partner -- craving -- be abandoned, allowing one to live alone: ***** ‘There are, Migajala, sounds cognizable by the ear..odours cognizable by the nose..tastes cognizable by the tongue..tactile objects cognizable by the body..mental phenomena cognizable by the mind that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu does not seek delight in them..he is called alone dweller. ‘Migajala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and female lay follower, with kings and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner and he has abandoned it; therefore his is called a lone dweller." (SN, Bk of 6 Sense Bases.63, B.Bodhi trans) ***** From the footnotes to Thera Sutta (B.Bodhi trans): *Commentary "(Spk): "The past is said to be abandoned (pahina.m) by the abandoning of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the past; the future is relinquished (pa.tinissa.t.tha.m) by the relinquishig of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the future. **"(Spk): ‘All-conqueror’(sbbaabhibhu.m): one who abides having overcome all aggregates, sense bases, and elements, and the three kinds of existence. ‘Unsullied’(anupalitta.m, or "unstuck") among hose very things by the paste (lepa) of craving and views. "Liberated in the destruction of craving (ta.nhakkhaye vimutta.m): liberated in Nibbana, called the destruction of craving by way of the liberation that takes this as its object." “ ***** S: For those who don’t have a copy of Visuddhimagga, (and for those like myself who need lots of repeated reminders), let me finish this (long) post by re-quoting the lines Mike gave with the whole paragraph, including the apt simile of the chariot wheel, under ‘Recollections of Death’ Vism, V111, 39: “As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it is said: ‘In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live, he will live. In the present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. ‘ “Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow” ‘ (Nd.1,42) “This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the moment.” With metta, Sarah ====== 23920 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations, conditions, kamma, vipaka Hello Howard, Mike and all, Thank you for your replies to my question. I found them very helpful, and will forward them to the person who asked the original question. (He doesn't have a home computer, or I would invite him to join dsg.) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" 23921 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry > Larry: "I agree and there is no real insight with the asssumption "I am the > knower or doer". But if you remember to look (sati) for a doer or knower > you might find there is nothing to find and no one to be happy about > that." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Fortunately that it is! You see, one can refine his/her misconcepts about it, and think " if I am not a doer, so I am a knower" or " I am a doer, not a knower", and further conceives fantasies like " there´s a hard way or an easy way to reach Nibbana", "here is wisdom and there is devotion", etc. From Sati to Samadhi and Panna the way is that it is. You can refine your own raptures... but egoic concepts are empty of meaning! Metta, Ícaro 23922 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Bases of Power Hi Victor (Mike, Kom & All), S: You gave many useful quotes on the bases of power (iddhipaada)and I have no quibble with any of your comments either!! On the other hand, I think you managed to skilfully avoid answering my questions pertaining to what kind of desire is arising for most of us, most the time, in daily life -- and I think this was what the thread was all about -- but I’m always happy to follow diversions;-) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, <...> V: > And what is the path of practice leading to the development of the > base of power? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right > resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, > right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of > practice leading to the development of the base of power. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html#64 > > This is how I see it: > Through developing the noble eightfold path, one develops the base > of power, which in turn further the the development of the noble > eightfold path. In fact, I see that the development of the four > bases of power and the development of the noble eightfold path go in > tandem: .... S: All very nicely put. I know you’re not keen on commentaries, but please humour me a little: Comy to Abhidhammathasangaha, Categories, 32 “Success (iddhi) is that by which the things beginning with resolve succeed (ijjhati)....;” CMA, B.Bodhi, Categories, guide to #26 “However, while those states (chanda, viriya, citta, viima’msa) become predominants (adhipati) on any occasion when they are instrumental in accomplishing a goal, they become iddhipaadas only when they are applied to achieving the goal of the Buddha’s teaching. The expression iddhipaada extends to both mundane and supramundane states.” ..... S: When there is ‘desire for the goal’ as you mentioned before, can this be referred to as iddhipaada I wonder? We read in the Visuddhimagga and other texts about the stages of insight (vipassanaa ~naa.nas). In the Comy to the Abhidhammatthasangaha which I have open, we read that one of these stages: ‘The knowledge of the desire for release is the knowledge that, being disenchanted, occurs by way of the desire for release from the formations.’ It may be that there’s plenty of desire for release and disenchantment, but this level of insight can only be attained by the very highly developed wisdom which is really detached from nama and rupa, having directly understood the nature of namas and rupas, the conditioned nature of these elements, the khandhas, directly realized the arising and falling away and so on. As Kom just wrote so clearly (imho): ..... K: “Vipassana-nana, or the insight knowledge, is the clear comprehension of the characteristics of realities. There are 16 levels, which are attainment levels, of clear comprehension starting with nama-rupa paricheta nana, or the separation of nama and rupa. What does insight knowledge cognitive of? The realities, the kandhas, the sense bases, and the dhatus, all realities (paramatha dhammas), and not the concepts (pannatti, or objects of thinking). How does Vipassana-nana come about? It comes from the development of panna starting from panna at the listening level, at the thinking level, and at the practice level.” ..... S: Already, Victor, you may have objections or a different understanding about what is to be known and how the ‘bases of power’ or eightfold path is to be developed. Kom continues: ..... K: “There are many difficulties in learning about Vipassana. Firstly, vipassana is a clear comprehension of REALITIES. If we consider why the Buddha's teaching is said to be irrefutable, we can begin to understand what realities are. For example, when two people see a woman, one says she is pretty, and the other says she isn't. This fact of prettiness is refutable. The Buddha's teaching isn't like that. Aversion has the characteristic of repulsion of its object. When aversion arises, only a fool (well, moha or ignorance) would deny / be unaware of this characteristic which is irrefutable. The teachings of anicca (impermanence), dukha (suffering), and anatta (non-self, uncontrollability) are like this as well: they are irrefutable and inherent to realities.” ..... S: I hope this doesn’t take us back to the computer discussion and whether it exists;-) Peter V was asking about the direct knowledge of various aspects of the Dhamma. We see that as insight develops, the truths are known more and more precisely and irrefutably as Kom explains: ..... K: “Second, vipassana is a CLEAR COMPREHENSION of realities. It is not thinking of realities. We may misunderstand our thinking of realities as vipassana-nana. For example, thinking that nothing is permanent is not the same as comprehending that nothing is permanent. Repeating to oneself about impermanence, or enumerating the things that we think are impermanent, is not vipassana-nana. .... S: Likewise, thinking about and having desire for release from suffering, desire for nibbana or disenchantment with life is not the same as iddhi-paada or muccitukamyataa ~naa.na (desire for deliverence). ..... K: “Third, one doesn't jump from knowing nothing about realities to an immediate, clear comprehension of anicca, dukha, and anatta, unless one has been accumulating for a long time. Panna progresses in stages (hence the 16 levels). It is impossible to have clear comprehension of anicca and dukkha without first the clear comprehension of nama and rupa.” ***** S: So is there any clear comprehension of nama and rupa at this moment? Usually not for most of us. No one denies that the four bases of power or the vipassana-nanas are wholesome. The question is: what kind of desire or understanding is arising at this moment? Mike wrote a couple of weeks ago at the start of this thread: ..... M: “I found this in CMA, Bhikkhu Bodhi's Guide to the Occasionals [Occasional Mental Factors]: "Desire (Chanda): Chanda here means desire to act (kattu-kaamataa) that is, to perform an action or achieve a result. This kind of desire must be distinguished from desire in the reprehensible sense, that is from lobha, greeed and raaga, lust. Whereas the latter terms are invariably wholesome, chanda is an ethically variable factor which, when conjoined with wholesome concomitants, can function as the virtuous desire to achieve a worthy goal. The characteristic of chanda is to act, its function is searching for an object, its manifestation is need for an object, and that same object is its proximate cause. It should be regarded as the stretching forth of the mind's hand towards the object." M: Assuming BB to be correct, since chanda is 'ethically variable' (can be wholesome or unwholesome), it seems to me that it must be unwholesome when its object is, for example, pleasant feeling or relief from unpleasant feeling (as each of these would be attachment to vedanaa which is unsatisfactory, impermanent and not-self), or when attended by self-view. It also seems to me that chanda not associated with desire for certain feelings or self-view is very rare (certainly for me). If so, it's important, I think, to carefully distinguish between wholesome chanda, unwholesome chanda and and attachment (especially with self-view)--difficult too, I think.” ***** Comments (and answers) very welcome;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Comments on my last post relating to your solitude theme are most welcome too;-) ================ 23923 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Mike! Mike: "When these things are remembered they are only remembered by sa~n~naa, I > think, when understood they are understood only by pa~n~naa, I think. > Corrections welcomed." -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bullseye, Mike! Since Sanna ( sa~n~~naa) has perception as basis ( as a matter of fact, Sanna IS perception), so such faculty of rememberance is endowed. Panna can be defined as a union of the 7th and 8th parts of the Atthangika Magga - the Octuple Noble Path. So, you can look at it as the end of a mental process that starts with Sila ( 1st, 2nd and 3rd parts of the Atthangika Magga), comes through Samadhi (4,5 and 6) and ends with Understanding or Panna. Corrections are welcome too!!! Metta, Ícaro > > mike 23924 From: vajramantra Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 5:45am Subject: Interesting Link Dear all, I thought I would share this great link with those who do not know it yet: http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/theravada-writings.htm All the best, Peter 23925 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Icaro Hello, and welcome. Thanks for coming in on this thread ;-)) --- icaro franca wrote: > ... > Correct. Taking on the Pali Dictionary of the Pali > Text Society for "Samatha" we get "calm, quietude of > heart" and "yanika who makes quietude his vehicle, > devoted to quietude, a kind of Arahant". In English, > "Tranquility" fits well as meaning. Thanks for the quote from PED. I think the point to remember is that samatha is the calm of kusala, not the calm of concentration (there is nothing about concentration in and of itself that connotes kusala-ness). Thanks for your many contributions of late. Jon 23926 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 6:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karma and reincarnation Peter V I agree pretty much with what you say here, but would only add that we also need to allow for the possibility that proof by direct experience is not easily come by, and may in fact be available only to those of highly developed understanding of the appropriate kind (whatever that may be). Jon --- vajramantra wrote: ... > That is what makes most people reject every kind of spiritual > process. They say, "If there is God, why does he allow all these > injustices to happen?" or "If there is a law of karma, why do we > see > good people suffer and bad people enjoy life?". It is easy to > say, "Oh, it is karma" when someone else's house is burning, but > when > we suffer, it is a lot more difficult to ease ourselves with > theories... Also, when we see starving children on TV, saying > that "They must have been very bad guys in their previous lives"... > I > don't know... As you said, unless I attain the capacity to directly > percieve how karma works, I cannot but believe... Otherwise the > whole existence would be a meaningless chaos ruled by coincidence. 23927 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Victor You make a good point here. The five aggregates are dukkha, and so are all aspects of this existence (such as birth, old age, sickness etc). At the same time, some of those five aggregates and some aspects of this existence are conducive to or form part of the path of release from this round of existence. These include the (mundane) path factors and the kusala that is solitude. Although it may seem at first sight that there's a conflict here, in fact if things were not this way (i.e., certain dhammas that are suffering are also part of the path to liberation) there would be no opportunity for escape from this existence. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nori, > > This is how I understand it: > > Solitude is dukkha and so is the absence of love, company and > friendship. > > The five clinging-aggregates encompass all conditioned phenomena, > things, events, situations, activities including birth, aging, > death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair, association > with the unbeloved, separation from the loved, not getting > what is wanted, solitude, and the absence of love, company and > friendship. > > However, solitude/living alone is extolled and/or encouraged in > several places in the discourses.* So there seems to be a > conflict: > if solitude is dukkha, then why is it extolled and/or encouraged? > > Because as a way of practice, it is conducive to the cessation of > dukkha. 23928 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. Dear Icaro, op 03-08-2003 22:08 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Right on point! > Kamma?s accumulations have a definite start line. > They bond us and grow.. N: Accumulations is a difficult subject and we recently had posts about it. Kusala kamma and akusala kamma is accumulated from citta to citta, from the past to the present and thus former kamma can produce result later on, even after countless lives. It is the force of kamma which produces result: vipaka. Inclinations that are kusala or akusala are also accumulated and condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta today: this is another type of condition, natural strong dependence condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya) different from kamma-condiiton that produces vipaka. So many types of condition at work each moment. I: and my own efforts on trying to read > and understand Pali really raised up my mind to a > better viewpoint about the ultimate teachings of > Buddha. N: Is the pali yahoo list something for you? We have almost daily exercises which are not heavy, but help to improve one's reading. Nina. 23929 From: suzakico Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thank you, Nina!!! -1 I will respond based on my own experience as obvious as it may be: > Attachment to sense objects can be temporarily subdued by jhana, but jhanas > do not last and after the jhanacittas have fallen away it arises again. > When wrong view, such as taking realities for self and mine is still there, > there is no way to eradicate attachment. I understand this clearly. > At first we may not realize our wrong view, we may not realize that it is > very harmful. It is essential to begin to see that we tend to take our > experiences and our body for self and mine. When we consider attachment, > aversion, all realities, as very important, as mine and self, we are > completely involved with my lobha, my dosa. Whereas, when we learn to see > akusala as mere elements we will take them less personal, at least on the > level of theoretical understanding. We learn that they are conditioned, > beyond control. I see akusala as element. I simply observe when it arises. I learned to be patient to practice the detached observation. I am often unaffected. But sometimes, it takes time. In any case, the clinging, etc. eventually dissolves. I am very certain on this process. They arise when there are the right conditions for them, but > we can learn to have more understanding of them. The development of this > kind of understanding is a long process, and only later on it can be > directly understood that lobha and dosa arise just for a moment and then > fall away immediately, thus, that they are impermanent. My learning/practice is detached observation. It is as if the sankara loses its power and fade away. This, I take it as the work of samadhi-panna, the nature's way. Of course, there is no self involved in it. So, when practicing, I do not see the notion of self involved at all. Although I can reflect back and tie self as a part of the problem, I do not usually reflect like this since the akusala is already gone. What falls away > immediately, can that be possessed by a self, can it be mine? Yes, I can see it tied to self in some way or the other, if I reflect back. But I would like to call it as a seeking mind (of course this is tied to self) that causes the problem. But in the process of detached observation, I do not bring in the notion of self. In fact, I know I should not, since if I do, it obscures the clarity of seeing what is going on. I do not need any thoughts including the notion of self to bring out the insight/panna. > The sotapanna is without wrong view, but he still has lobha and dosa. > However, he does not take them for self. I can relate to this as mentioned above. > Lobha and dosa cannot condition > very bad deeds anymore which could produce as results an unhappy rebirth. I can relate to "lobha and dosa cannot condition...bad deeds." This is because, they are dissolved when they arise (of course, one at a time, by detached observation) so there is nothing to carry further. > When we reflect on this, it will be clearer that wrong view is to be > eradicated first. It can also remind us not to delay the development of > understanding now, of whatever reality appears, be it rupa, or any kind of > nama, akusala included. This is very urgent. Yes, when we reflect. Yes, we need to deal with the situation one at a time so that the problem is dissolved – not just on surface but deeper sankhara as much as possible. Since I do not know how deep the sankhara is, therefore, I practice sitting meditation few times a day to eliminate the deeper sankhara. So, what does this mean in relation to my original question. Is the difference just semantics? In other words, isn't "putting self first" in the actual practice an unnecessary notion to carry? It appears that it is irrelevant to say which comes first pragmatically speaking - unless this is for the intellectual understanding. As for me, I feel this is confusing and detract from the task at hand which is address the problem of suffering. (Come to think about it, I think all Abhidhamma knowledge, e.g., this citta that citta, etc., is unnecessary in "actual" practice of detached observation as found in the discussion of "self" I just went through. It may help for reflection to confirm the point.) In the original post, you said: "Gradually you learn that cittas are conditioned, conditioned by past experiences, by accumulated inclinations. You experience praise and blame, gain and loss, and these do not stay, they are beyond control. They are conditioned realities. You may come to know that the understanding of different moments is helpful for you personally, in daily life. The aim of learning more about different realities is detachment. First detachment from the idea of self, and later on from all objects (for the arahat). " Here, I feel that the last sentence is unnecessary because there is only one practice, i.e., detached observation of whatever is happening all around and inside us (so to speak) with honed senses/awareness – without the notion of any disturbing thoughts, including the thoughts of self or even the knowledge of Abhidhamma. Since at that moment, no knowledge will help and that we have to let go totally, and just be empty. In fact, the notion of sotopanna, etc. can be binding as well. Knowledge can be helpful, but looking from the other way, it can be quite a burden. Kio 23930 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 0:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. Dear Nina > N: Is the pali yahoo list something for you? We have > almost daily exercises > which are not heavy, but help to improve one's > reading. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------- GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hartelijk Danke ! Thanks Nina! I didn´t know about this Yahoo´s Pali Group! I´m coming over there on the double! Tot Straks Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23931 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 4:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Jon,Victor,All Would this statement be in line with the Tipitaka/Commentries? "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being conditioned, But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" ? Thanks Steve --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > You make a good point here. > > The five aggregates are dukkha, and so are all aspects of this > existence (such as birth, old age, sickness etc). > > At the same time, some of those five aggregates and some aspects of > this existence are conducive to or form part of the path of release > from this round of existence. These include the (mundane) path > factors and the kusala that is solitude. > > Although it may seem at first sight that there's a conflict here, in > fact if things were not this way (i.e., certain dhammas that are > suffering are also part of the path to liberation) there would be no > opportunity for escape from this existence. > > Jon > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nori, > > The five clinging-aggregates encompass all conditioned phenomena, > > things, events, situations, activities including birth, aging, > > death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair, association > > with the unbeloved, separation from the loved, not getting > > what is wanted, solitude, and the absence of love, company and > > friendship. 23932 From: Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 5:13pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 3 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 3. In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding (pajaanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jaanana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sa~njaanana) and cognizing (vijaanana). For though the state of knowing (jaanana-bhaava) is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. 23933 From: Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 5:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 3 (Jim & Nina) Hi all, We have discussed this paragraph rather extensively, particularly concerning the word "endeavour". I think the final conclusion was that "endeavour" referred to Right Effort, but I believe a commentary on this word added another element. Maybe Jim could clarify this point. I don't remember if we discussed "penetration" but I would like to know more about it. The main point of this paragraph seems to be that panna both penetrates the general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, not self) and leads "by endeavour" to a path moment of realization. Nina, how do you see it? Larry ------------------------- "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) XIV 3. In what sense is it understanding? It is understanding (pa~n~naa) in the sense of act of understanding (pajaanana). What is this act of understanding? It is knowing (jaanana) in a particular mode separate from the modes of perceiving (sa~njaanana) and cognizing (vijaanana). For though the state of knowing (jaanana-bhaava) is equally present in perception (sa~n~naa), in consciousness (vi~n~naa.na), and in understanding (pa~n~naa), nevertheless perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristics as impermanent, painful, and not-self. Consciousness knows the object as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the [supramundane] path. Understanding knows the object in the way already stated, it brings about the penetration of the characteristics and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path. 23934 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 6:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Larry! > Larry: "Would this statement be in line > with the > Tipitaka/Commentries? > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the > sense of being > conditioned, But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) > are not included > within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" ?" Well... yes. Lokuttara Cuttas are conditioned. Looking at my own list of the Lokuttara Cittani: 8 Supramundane Consciousness - Lokuttara Cittani - 8 (Javanas) 4 Moral Supramundane Consciousness - Lokuttara Kusala Cittani 1. Sotapatti Path-consciousness. Sotapattimaggacittam. 2. Sakadagami Path-consciousness. Sakadagamimaggacittam. 3. Anagami Path-consciousness. Anagamimaggacittam. 4. Arahatta Path-consciousness. Arahattamaggacittam. These are the four type of Supramundane Moral Consciousness. 4 Resultant Supramundane Consciousness - Lokuttara Vipaka Cittani 1. Sotapatti Fruit-consciousness. Sotapattiphalacittam. 2. Sakadagami Fruit-consciousness. Sakadagamiphalacittam. 3. Anagami Fruit-consciousness. Anagamiphalacittam. 4. Arahatta Fruit-consciousness. Arahattaphalacittam. These are the four type of Supramundane Resultant Consciousness. Note that the Lokuttara Citta(ni) exists only at the spheres of formless resultant and moral consciousness, and not at the Functional formless sphere of consciousness (Path + Fruit-consciousness). And all conditiones states of conscience are Dukkha. Corrections are welcome. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23935 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 6:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Steve The position according to CMA is as follows: ------------------------ Ch. VII Compendium of Categories #40 Summary … Mental states associated with the paths and the fruits are excluded from the four truths. Guide to #40 'Mental states associated with the paths': Apart from the 8 cetasikas corresponding to the 8 path factors, the other constituents of the supramundane path consciousness -- the citta itself and the associated cetasikas -- are not strictly speaking part of the eightfold path, and thus are not comprehended by the Four Noble Truths. The four fruits as well are excluded from the framework of the Four Noble Truths. -------------------------- On this basis the second limb of the statement you have quoted would have to be modified to exclude those cetasikas that constitute the 8 path factors. I don't know of any other sources on this point. Jon --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Jon,Victor,All > Would this statement be in line with the > Tipitaka/Commentries? > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being > conditioned, But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included > within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" ? > > Thanks > Steve 23936 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 7:33pm Subject: Re: Interesting Link Dear Peter, Thanks for the link to our old friend Anders' website. I see he has done quite a bit of work on it in the past year or so. A lot more interesting material (and much less uninteresting material) than earlier. Exellent and diverse readings. Dan > Dear all, > > I thought I would share this great link with those who do not know it > yet: > > http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/theravada-writings.htm > > > All the best, > > Peter 23937 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Mike, excellent reminder that just remembering is not enough. Understanding should be developed, but that goes slowly. Before we, or rather panna, realizes: no doer, there is a long, long way to go. Nina. op 04-08-2003 05:48 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > When these things are remembered they are only remembered by sa~n~naa, I > think, when understood they are understood only by pa~n~naa, I think. 23938 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life moment of beings Dear Sarah, thank you very much. op 04-08-2003 10:27 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, >> There was for me a condition for aversion towards a particular person > who misbehaved. Now this quote is helpful, and we see that when there is > more understanding of elements there can be less grudge, and thus more > opportunity for metta. N: But Sarah, the aversion came back!! Thus we see that we need Mike's reminder: we may well remember the dhamma, by sanna, but panna, where is it? It is lacking. So then aversion is a fit object of understanding, but we are so forgetful. S: You reminded me of the first tape of discussion with K.Sujin that I > listened to, which had such a dramatic effect on me at the time, when you > wrote(to Kio): > N: “We also stayed in Varanasi, in Hotel de Paris. walking in the > garden of Hotel de Paris, but if we die now, the story comes to an end. > Actually, each citta that falls away is a moment of dying. With the citta > that falls away, the story comes to an end. > > > Even as I listened to the words, I'd conjure up the picture of you all, > sitting in the garden, discussing dhamma, with the band marching by in the > background. N: It was Jon who noted the sound of the band. Also Solly was there, and I wrote to him today to invite him here. S: > *Commentary "(Spk): "The past is said to be abandoned (pahina.m) by the > abandoning of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the past; the > future is relinquished (pa.tinissa.t.tha.m) by the relinquishig of desire > and lust for the five aggregates of the future. N: Thank you for the footnotes with comy. Nina. 23939 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 9:07pm Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 5 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:52:23 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 5 B Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 5 B tatraayasmaa raahulo bhagavato pi.t.thito pi.t.thito gacchantova paadatalato yaava upari kesantaa tathaagata.m aalokesi. There the venerable Rahula who walked behind the Exalted One looked at the ³Thus-gone² from the soles of his feet up to the tips of his hairs. so bhagavato buddhavesavilaasa.m disvaa And when he saw the graceful appearance of a Buddha in the Exalted One, he thought: ``sobhati bhagavaa dvatti.msamahaapurisalakkha.navicittasariiro ³The Exalted One is beautiful, his body adorned with the thirtytwo characteristics of a Great Man, byaamappabhaaparikkhittataaya vippaki.n.nasuva.n.nacu.n.namajjhagato viya, Since he is surrounded by his aura of one fathom, he is as it were going in the middle of gold dust, scattered all around him, vijjulataaparikkhitto kanakapabbato viya, He is like a golden mountain encircled by a flash of lightning yantasuttasamaaka.d.dhitaratanavicitta.m suva.n.naagghika.m viya, He is like a golden festoon decorated with jewels that is pulled along by a mechanical contrivance, rattapa.msukuulaciivarapa.ticchannopi rattakambalaparikkhittakanakapabbato viya, Although he is clothed in a saffron rag-robe, he is like a golden mountain covered by a shimmering woollen cloth, pavaa.lalataapa.tima.n.dita.m suva.n.naagghika.m viya , He is like a golden festoonwork ornamented with coral creepers, ciinapi.t.thacu.n.napuujita.m suva.n.nacetiya.m viya, He is like a golden pagoda which is venerated by (the application of) powder made from red lead, laakhaarasaanulitto kanakayuupo viya, He is like a golden sacrificial post covered with lac colouring, rattavalaahakantarato ta"nkha.nabbhuggatapu.n.nacando viya, He is like the full moon that emerges at that moment in between misty clouds. aho samati.msapaaramitaanubhaavasajjitassa attabhaavassa siriisampattii''ti cintesi. O, what splendour of his body, adorned with the majesty of the thirty perfections *.² English: There the venerable Rahula who walked behind the Exalted One looked at the ³Thus-gone² from the soles of his feet up to the tips of his hairs. And when he saw the graceful Buddha appearance in the Exalted One, he thought: ³The Exalted One is beautiful, his body adorned with the thirtytwo characteristics, Since he is surrounded by his aura of one fathom, he is as it were going in the middle of gold dust, scattered all around him, He is like a golden mountain encircled by a flash of lightning He is like a golden festoon decorated with jewels that is pulled along by a mechanical contrivance. Although he is clothed in a saffron rag-robe, he is like a golden mountain covered by a shimmering woollen cloth, He is like a golden festoonwork ornamented with coral creepers, He is like a golden pagoda which is venerated by (the application of) powder made from red lead, He is like a golden sacrificial post covered with lac colouring, He is like the full moon that emerges at that moment in between misty clouds. O, what splendour of his body, adorned with the majesty of the thirty perfections *.² * The Buddha accumulated in his lives as a Bodhisatta ten perfections (generosity, morality, etc.), which can be distinguished as: basic, medium and ultimate, and thus they can be counted as thirty perfections. Nina. 23941 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Jon, All wrote: > Steve > > The position according to CMA is as follows: > > ------------------------ > Ch. VII Compendium of Categories > #40 Summary > … > Mental states associated with the paths and the fruits are excluded > from the four truths. > > Guide to #40 > 'Mental states associated with the paths': Apart from the 8 > cetasikas corresponding to the 8 path factors, the other constituents > of the supramundane path consciousness -- the citta itself and the > associated cetasikas -- are not strictly speaking part of the > eightfold path, and thus are not comprehended by the Four Noble > Truths. The four fruits as well are excluded from the framework of > the Four Noble Truths. > -------------------------- > > On this basis the second limb of the statement you have quoted would > have to be modified to exclude those cetasikas that constitute the 8 > path factors. > > I don't know of any other sources on this point. > > Jon > Would the 8 Lokuttara path factor cetasikas be included within the Noble Truth of Dukkha? I can see how they would be included in the 4 Truths, under the Noble Path, but being Lokuttara and not subject to clinging, wouldnt that make them excluded from the Noble Truth of Dukkha? Steve > --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Jon,Victor,All > > Would this statement be in line with the > > Tipitaka/Commentries? > > > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being > > conditioned, But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included > > within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" ? > > > > Thanks > > Steve 23942 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Steve, This is how I see it: The first statement "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being conditioned." is in line with the Buddha's teaching, is in line with the noble truth of dukkha. Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas as clinging-aggregates are dukkha. I am not sure what the second statement But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" means. Clarification would be helpful. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi Jon,Victor,All > Would this statement be in line with the > Tipitaka/Commentries? > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being > conditioned, But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included > within the Noble Truth of Dukkha" ? > > Thanks > Steve 23943 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Victor, All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Steve, > > This is how I see it: > > The first statement > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being > conditioned." > > is in line with the Buddha's teaching, is in line with the noble > truth of dukkha. Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas as clinging-aggregates > are dukkha. My understanding is that Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are not "clinging-aggregates". Being Lokuttara they are free from clinging and cannot be objects of clinging. > > I am not sure what the second statement > > But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included within the > Noble Truth of Dukkha" > > means. Clarification would be helpful. > > Peace, > Victor Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas not being "clinging-aggregates", are they included within the Noble Truth of Dukkha? Steve 23944 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi! I'm Gene Sokol Hi Gene, I was also very glad to read your introductory note and would also like to belatedly welcome you to DSG. --- g_sokol wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends > > My name is Gene Sokol. I've been interested in Buddhism ever since I > took a course in it and decided to major in religion at the > University of Georgia back in the '80's. I studied the major > religions, but Buddhism impressed me the most with its depth of study > in & about the human mind. .... This is what interested me and still interests me a lot as well. I had majored in psychology but was only too aware of its limitations in this regard. When it comes to Buddhism and the Abhidhamma in particular, I find no limitations at all in the ‘depth and study in about the human mind’. .... > > I'm thankful to have stumbled upon this group and look forward to > learning and sharing with all involved. .... I’m glad you stumbled here too and we all look forward to your sharing of learning too. .... > > The Dhamma is of great interest to me because I want to understand > more fully the workings of the mind & the causation/cessation of > thought-moments. .... You’re in the right place I think;-) Please note that all posts are backed up at escribe which has a useful search function for topic, author, thread: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ There is a simple Pali glossary at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms Some posts on particular topics are saved here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ======= 23945 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inroduction of myself to the 'Dhamma Study Group' Hi Nori, I enjoyed your intro very much;-)Thanks so much. I’ve been meaning to respond - --- norakat147 wrote: > I live in New York City. Home of vanity, the biggest Ego's, > uncontrolled sensual pleasures and desire; AKA massive suffering; > Home of angry faces and rude attitudes ... Babylon. > > Rarely do I meet any good people here, although there are some. .... Well, we meet a few good ones, like Howard, here on DSG. Maybe they’re all hiding on Buddhist websites;-) I’d really like to visit NY one day.... .... > I still don't know what I'm doing here. Attachment to family I guess. > > I came across Buddhism a few years ago due to both 'seeking the > ultimate truth of existence' (triggered by entheogens) and likewise > due to extreme suffering and an unfulfilling life. ...Since then my > suffering has been greatly reduced, although I still feel much. (...I > feel like I'm at a AA meeting) ..... At least you have a sense of humour with it all;-) Hope the discussions here are of assistance - your contributions and special style will be a great asset to the list. ..... > Some site named "Mountain Man Graphics" in australia had some > passages from Paul Carus's - Gospel of Buddha, on the internet. > > I read it and said "wow this actually makes sense, ...and actually > sounds like the truth" unlike many other long winded religious and > philosophical BALONEY I have read. And so, this eventually led me to > the source - The Tipitaka, the oldest texts of Gotama, Buddha. > > My first book being the 'Dhammapada' (Oxford-sacred books of the > east). Ever since, I have been a fan of Gotama (he's my hero). ..... So we have to thank “Mountain Man Graphics” for your presence;-) .... > I also read other theological and philosophical works and have faith > in nothing I cannot verify and experience myself. > > I can't express how happy I am to have found a Cyber-Sangha with kind > people who also seek the same, since I have not a single friend or > family member who even has an inkling of interest in it (i.e. The > ultimate truth, happiness, dhamma). > > I hope to have many intriguing future conversations and realizations. .... You’ve made a great start and I’m glad you’ve joined this Cyber-Sangha or family. Do start or chip in on any conversations and share any of your helpful discussions with Mike too;-) Metta, Sarah. ====== 23946 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] My realization on Compassion; How to love those who hate you Hi Nori, Me again! --- norakat147 wrote: > hi all, > > I'm the one who posted the "If there is Kamma, then why compassion?" > post. > > I have been contemplating this for a long, long time; looking for a > solid foundation on sound reasoning. ..... Thanks for posting the sutta: > Kakacupama Sutta > The Simile of the Saw .....and for your comments and poem!! > I thought, man, Gautama must be mad! > > How are we to be sympathetic to those who show such extreme > intentional hate toward us with no regard ??? > > How are we to show them good will and no hate/enmity ??? <.....snip> > So anyway, today I went hiking in the mountains near me, > contemplating this issue and finally I have the realization I needed; > a solid, sound line of reasoning. > > I'd like to share it with everyone; > > > This is: > > My realization on Love and Hate: > > Among the things I hate, are those who hate, > yet I hate (those who hate). > > Those who hate are born from hate, > yet I still hate (those who hate). > > What I love, is those who love, > yet I do not always love. > > Those who love are born of love, > yet I do not always love. > > ---- > Pretty hypocritical of me to have enmity toward those who hate; to > those who cause extreme suffering to me and others. > Hope it doesn't sound corny ...was profound for me. ..... It didn’t sound corny at all - it sounds as though you’ve been having some helpful reflections, perhaps also prompted by all the great responses you got here to your original questions. Your poem and reflections also reminded me of the conversation King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika had together and with the Buddha. I’ve repeated it a few times here, but hopefully you haven’t read all the old posts yet;-) In brief, King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika concluded that indeed there was no one dearer in the world than themselves, the Buddha spoke these lines in Udana, 5-1, ‘Dear’(Masefield trans): ‘Having explored all quarters with the mind, one would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place; thus is the self dear separately to others - therefore one desiring self should not harm another.’ The commentary adds: ‘.....One would simply not attain that dearer than the self in any place (n’ev’ajjhagaapiyataram attanaa kvaci): whatever man, seeking out with every endeavour someone else (more) excessively dear than the self, would neither attain nor behold (such) in any place, anywhere in the (ten) quarters.Thus is the self dear separately to others (evam piyo puthu attaa paresa.m): thus is the self alone dear separately, severally, to this and that being, by way of the non-discovery of anyone dearer than the self. Therefore one desiring self should not harm another (tasmaa na hi.mse param attakaama): since each being holds the self dear in that way, is one desiring happiness for that self, one for whom dukkha is repulsive, therefore one desiring self, in wanting well-being and happiness for that self, should not harm, should not kill, should not even antagonise with the hand....and so on, another being, upwards from and including even a mere ant or (other) samll insect. For when dukkha is caused by oneself to some other, that (dukkha) is, after an interval of time, observed in one’s (own) self, as though it were passing over therefrom. For this is the law of karma.’ ..... Regardless of the deeds another performs or the seemingly ‘deserved’ or ‘undeserved’ suffering experienced, he or she wishes for happiness and is lost in samsara just like us. Look forward to more of your reflections. Metta, Sarah ====== 23947 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Interesting Link dear Dan D: Dan D: "Thanks for the link to our old friend Anders' > website. I see he has > done quite a bit of work on it in the past year or > so. A lot more > interesting material (and much less uninteresting > material) than > earlier. Exellent and diverse readings." ------------------------------------------------------ A very good one! In my opinion, the best Layperson-oriented Theravada site on web! The beginner on buddhism Doctrine will find some good subjects over there. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23948 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] glass with rum. Hi Icaro and Nina, Yes I like Icaro’s combination of serious abhidhamma and zany humour;-) Nice photos in the album and I’m hoping you’ll start a trend amongst other newbies here... --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Icaro, you make me laugh. A. Sujin would never say: don't drink > white > rum. Follow your accumulations, but at the same time, a moment of > understanding can slip in. .... Anyway Icaro, it sounds like you’re no longer ‘defiling the path’ with White Rum and hopefully we’re giving you enough distractions here. .... >You have to know your accumulations, just as > you > are. Realities that are kusala, akusala. pleasant or unpleasant, they > all > have to be known in the end. They are all dhammas, realities without a > self > or soul, that is the main point. > I do not go to webs and did not see your photo, but I see your writings, > the > best image of a person. Photo is only visible object, that is all. .... I laughed again - Nina has no ‘accumulations’ to look at the photos -- maybe Lodevick has?? -- and I do too;-) Yes, we have to live naturally -- not imitate others -- and get to know al these different dhammas, whatever our present lifestyle. Thanks also, Icaro, for a couple of lists and comments you’ve added to other posts of mine. I think you may be picking up my bad habit of getting names mixed up as I noticed you were addressing Steve as Larry today;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 23949 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi bodhi2500! Jon: "Mental states associated with the paths and the > fruits are excluded > > from the four truths." ------------------------------------------------------ This includes the four Resultant Supramundane Consciousness - Lokuttara Vipaka Cittani,that is defined as a kind of fruit-consciousness. ------------------------------------------------------ Steve: "Would the 8 Lokuttara path factor cetasikas be > included within the > Noble Truth of Dukkha?" ----------------------------------------------------- As we´ve seem, by definition, no. But since all these states are Dukkha, one can deal with this at the way prescribed by Buddha at the First Noble Truth. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23950 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] glass with rum. Dear Sarah Sarah: "Yes I like Icaro’s combination of serious abhidhamma > and zany humour;-) > Nice photos in the album and I’m hoping you’ll start > a trend amongst other > newbies here..." ------------------------------------------------------ Oh well... I will try to get better photos of mine, but you see: at these Star Trek Meetings I really indulge myself with such excesses... ------------------------------------------------------ Sarah: "I laughed again - Nina has no ‘accumulations’ to > look at the photos -- > maybe Lodevick has?? -- and I do too;-) > Yes, we have to live naturally -- not imitate others > -- and get to know al > these different dhammas, whatever our present > lifestyle." ----------------------------------------------------- If you get some accumulations only to look at a so ugly chap as me, think that since all in this world is impermanence, such Kamma births, grows, fades and finally dissapears... as my alcoholic headaches!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: "Thanks also, Icaro, for a couple of lists and > comments you’ve added to > other posts of mine." ----------------------------------------------------- I am really intending to post at lenght some of my Abhidhamma´s notes - not so brilliant as Rob´s!!! - for all people here... I only must to put it all in a good and proper order, not mixing up Arupajhanas with the summary of feelings and so on. ---------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "I think you may be picking up > my bad habit of getting > names mixed up as I noticed you were addressing > Steve as Larry today;-) ---------------------------------------------------- Oh well... that´s happen! I hope to quite off all these drawbacks before reaching Nibbana! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23951 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. > Inclinations that are kusala or akusala are also accumulated and > condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta today: this is > another type of condition, natural strong dependence condition > (pakatupanissaya paccaya) Is this condition synonymous with 'anusaya*'? Is this the sense in which Khun Sujin uses 'accumulations'? Sorry if we've been over this before. Thanks, mike *anusaya=proclivity; a dormant disposition Buddhadhatta's Concise Pali-English Dictionary 23952 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Icaro's rum and accumulations. > Inclinations that are kusala or akusala are also accumulated and > condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta today: this is > another type of condition, natural strong dependence condition > (pakatupanissaya paccaya) Is this condition synonymous with 'anusaya*'? Is this the sense in which Khun Sujin uses 'accumulations'? Sorry if we've been over this before. Thanks, mike *anusaya=proclivity; a dormant disposition Buddhadhatta's Concise Pali-English Dictionary 23953 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Steve Thanks for drawing to my attention the fact that the statement in question relates specifically to the first Noble Truth, which I had overlooked. Sorry for any confusion. As far as I understand, yes, the 8 lokuttara path factor cetasikas cannot be the object of clinging and so do not fall within the five aggregates of clinging that constitute the first Noble Truth. But I don't know of any textual reference for this. Jon --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Jon, All > Would the 8 Lokuttara path factor cetasikas be included within the > Noble Truth of Dukkha? I can see how they would be included in the > 4 Truths, under the Noble Path, but being Lokuttara and not subject > to > clinging, wouldnt that make them excluded from the Noble Truth of > Dukkha? > > Steve 23954 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 7:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Steve, Then we understand differently. As I see it, whatever cittas/cetasikas, consciousnesses, hearts, wills, intentions, minds, mind states, however refined and sublime, are clinging-aggregates. They are dukkha. "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas" as "supramundane minds/mind states" might be an indication or sign of the cessation of dukkha. However, they themselves are clinging-aggregates, dukkha, not the cessation of dukkha. So in that sense, yes, they are included in the noble truth of dukkha. That is how I see it. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi Victor, All > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > > > This is how I see it: > > > > The first statement > > > > "Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are dukkha in the sense of being > > conditioned." > > > > is in line with the Buddha's teaching, is in line with the noble > > truth of dukkha. Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas as clinging- aggregates > > are dukkha. > > My understanding is that Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas are > not "clinging-aggregates". Being Lokuttara they are free from > clinging and cannot be objects of clinging. > > > > > I am not sure what the second statement > > > > But they (Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas) are not included within the > > Noble Truth of Dukkha" > > > > means. Clarification would be helpful. > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > Lokuttara cittas/cetasikas not being "clinging-aggregates", are they > included within the Noble Truth of Dukkha? > > Steve 23955 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 8:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Jon, I was just checking with the Abhidhammatthasangaha-vibhavini-tika on your quotes below and saw something interesting. Note that "strictly speaking" refers to 'nippariyaayato', but the tika also has something to say from the point of view of 'pariyaayato' (in a roundabout way of speaking) that puts a~n~naataavindriya (arahattaphala?) in with the truth of the path and the remaining supramundane paths and fruits in with the truth of suffering (sa"nkhaaradukkhasaama~n~nena). You should be able to read this in your new tika translation which I don't have yet. Thanks for your earlier response regarding the Dhammasangani passage on the lokuttaracittas which I will study further when I get the chance and get back to you later if there's anything more me to add. I've been rather busy lately with so much to study. Best wishes, Jim > Steve > > The position according to CMA is as follows: > > ------------------------ > Ch. VII Compendium of Categories > #40 Summary > . > Mental states associated with the paths and the fruits are excluded > from the four truths. > > Guide to #40 > 'Mental states associated with the paths': Apart from the 8 > cetasikas corresponding to the 8 path factors, the other constituents > of the supramundane path consciousness -- the citta itself and the > associated cetasikas -- are not strictly speaking part of the > eightfold path, and thus are not comprehended by the Four Noble > Truths. The four fruits as well are excluded from the framework of > the Four Noble Truths. > -------------------------- > > On this basis the second limb of the statement you have quoted would > have to be modified to exclude those cetasikas that constitute the 8 > path factors. > > I don't know of any other sources on this point. > > Jon 23956 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Bases of Power Hi Sarah, Thank you for the reply. Regarding your question: When there is `desire for the goal' as you mentioned before, can this be referred to as iddhipaada I wonder? I would think that the "desire for the goal"/"desire to realize the goal", where goal being the cessation of dukkha, _pertains_ to the base of power. I would not say it is _referred_ to as the base of power. In fact, as Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote: Each of these four bases has three component parts: the "fabrications of exertion" (which the texts equate with the four right exertions), concentration, and the mental quality -- desire, persistence, intent, or discrimination -- on which the concentration is based. * A base of power would not be one without "fabrication of exertion", concentration, and the mental quality -- desire, persistence, intent, or discrimination. Regarding your question: what kind of desire or understanding is arising at this moment? I would not want to speak for others. And I would think that it is more important for me to apply the "fabrications of exertion"/four right exertions with regard to whatever skillful/wholesome and unskillful/unwholesome qualities that has or hasn't arisen. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor * http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor (Mike, Kom & All), [snip] > S: When there is `desire for the goal' as you mentioned before, can this > be referred to as iddhipaada I wonder? We read in the > .... [snip] > S: Likewise, thinking about and having desire for release from suffering, > desire for nibbana or disenchantment with life is not the same as > iddhi-paada or muccitukamyataa ~naa.na (desire for deliverence). [snip] > S: So is there any clear comprehension of nama and rupa at this moment? > Usually not for most of us. > [snip] > The question is: what kind of desire or understanding is arising at this > moment? [snip] > Comments (and answers) very welcome;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah 23957 From: bodhi2500 Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 3:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Victor, wrote: > Hi Steve, > > Then we understand differently. > > As I see it, whatever cittas/cetasikas, consciousnesses, hearts, > wills, intentions, minds, mind states, however refined and sublime, > are clinging-aggregates. They are dukkha. "Lokuttara > cittas/cetasikas" as "supramundane minds/mind states" might be an > indication or sign of the cessation of dukkha. However, they > themselves are clinging-aggregates, dukkha, not the cessation of > dukkha. So in that sense, yes, they are included in the noble truth > of dukkha. > > That is how I see it. > > Peace, > Victor Here are a few notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the "Aggregates Sutta" "The key terms to distinguishing the panca upadanakkhandha(five clinging aggregates) from the pancakkhandhaa(5 aggregates) are sasava upadaniya,"with taints and subject to clinging." The 5 clinging aggregates are included within the 5 aggregates, for all members of the former set must also be members of the latter set. However, the fact that a distinction is drawn between them implies that there are khandha which are anasava anupadaniya,"untainted and not subject to clinging" On first consideration it would seem that the "bare aggregates" are those of the Arahant,who has eliminated the asava and upadana. However in the Abhidhamma all rupa is classified as sasava and upadaniya, and so to the resultant(vipaka) and functional(kiriya) mental aggregates of the Arahant....The only aggregates classed as anasava and anupadaniya (untainted and not subject to clinging) are the four mental aggregates occurring on the cognitive occasions of the four supramundane paths and fruits... Aggregates Sutta> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22- 048.html To my reading this would make lokuttara mental aggregates excluded from the "five aggregates of clinging." Steve 23958 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Steve! steve: "To my reading this would make lokuttara mental > aggregates excluded > from the "five aggregates of clinging."" ------------------------------------------------------- YES! If you pay attention on Lokuttara Citta´s definition, you´ll find that they´re directly related with the minds that are on the road towards Nibbana - Sotapani,Sakadagami, Anagami and Arahant. Thinking reversely, you can conceive that, despite the Dukkha´s fetters over all compounded and aggregated mind states, these ones are somewhat beyond such handicap! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23959 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 8:39pm Subject: My Conclusion upon contemplation Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as the abse hi, Thanks for the great response regarding this post i.e.: "Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship?" My reason for placing this post is due to a problem I am sure most buddhist practitioners will encounter. In the Dhammapada verse 61: "If, in your course, you don't meet your equal, your better, then continue your course, firmly, alone. There's no fellowship with fools." _______________________ Also in Itivuttaka verse 76: "The sort of person you make a friend, the sort you seek out, that's the sort you yourself become -- for your living together is of that sort. The one associated with, the one who associates, the one who's touched, the one who touches another -- like an arrow smeared with poison -- contaminates the quiver. So, fearing contamination, the enlightened should not be comrades with evil people. A man who wraps rotting fish in a blade of kusa grass makes the grass smelly: so it is if you seek out fools. But a man who wraps powdered incense in the leaf of a tree makes the leaf fragrant: so it is if you seek out the enlightened." ______________________ Before I encountered dhamma, before I sought release from suffering, I had many friends. I had many friends who were fools; I had many friends who had evil/unskillful qualities; I myself was a fool; I myself had evil/unskillful qualities. While they were fools and had evil/unskillful qualities, at times I found comfort in their company, I, at times recieved love from them, I found fun in their folly, ...my folly. After being convinced in the dhamma, I decided to part from those old friends, even some which were friends for almost 15 years!!! It had to be one of the most painful things I have ever done. I felt very lonely, ...hurt. To this day I suffer. This is why I have placed my post: "Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship?" Upon contemplation and reading some replies on this site and others, some suttas which I was led to, I have come to a conclusion/answer. So, - is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? The answer to that question is - depends on who it is. Obviously for me it was dukkha ...extreme dukkha ...extreme suffering. And for puthujjana - your uninformed, run-of-the-mill person it is also dukkha. There is no question: -It is pleasent to have good mates, friends, companions (for all beings). -It is suffering not to have good mates, friends, companions (for puthujjana only). So then why is it that arahats and informed ones do not suffer from solitude, As well as the absence of love and friendship? It is this:(from Lokavipatti Sutta) The Blessed One said, "Gain arises for an uninstructed run-of-the- mill person (this includes the gain of good mates, friends, companions, love). He does NOT reflect, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He does not discern it as it actually is. ...His mind remains consumed with the gain. His mind remains consumed with the loss ...His mind remains consumed with the pain. ...He welcomes the arisen gain and rebels against the arisen loss. ...He welcomes the arisen pleasure and rebels against the arisen pain. As he is thus engaged in welcoming & rebelling, he is not released from birth, aging, or death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, or despairs. He is not released, I tell you, from suffering & stress. ... Now, gain arises for a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones. He reflects, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is. ... His mind does not remain consumed with the gain. His mind does not remain consumed with the loss. ...His mind does not remain consumed with the pain. He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. ...He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress. This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person." ------------- And so, for now on, I will be mindful of Anicca (Inconstant; unsteady; impermanent). I will guard my thoughts and feelings. And so, solitude will not be as much stress for me no longer; and will eventually turn to none. I will have equanimity with gain and loss. I will not fear or avoid good companions, ones who love me, nor welcome them. I will have equanimity. with metta, nori 23960 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003 9:16pm Subject: FW: Meanings of dhamma, no 3. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:48:41 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Meanings of dhamma, no 3. Meanings of dhamma, no 3. As we have seen, the Dhammapada-Atthakata mentions dhamma as an entity without a living soul (nissatta, nijjiva): <"Tasmi.m khopana samaye dhammaa honti, khandhaa hontii"ti (dha. sa. 121) Then, at that time dhammas occur, khandhas occur.> The ³Atthasaalinii² (38, Co. to the Dhammasangani) refers to the different meanings of the word dhamma: Dhammasaddo panaaya.m pariyatti-hetu-gu.na-nissatta-nijjiivata-adiisu dissati. And the word dhamma is used in the sense of scriptural text (pariyatti), virtue (gu.na), absence of an entity, living thing (nissatta, nijjiva), etc. Aya~nhi "dhamma.m pariyaapu.naati sutta.m geyyan"ti-aadiisu (a. ni. 4.102) pariyattiya.m dissati. In such passages as, ³This one studies the Dhamma, the sutta and the Geyya- dhamma means ³the Scriptures². "Hetumhi ~naa.na.m dhamma pa.tisambhidaa"ti-aadiisu (vibha. 720) hetumhi. In such passages as ,²Knowledge of root-conditions is analysis of dhamma (pa.tisambhidaa)-dhamma means root-condition or cause. "Na hi dhammo adhammo ca, ubho samavipaakino; adhammo niraya.m neti, dhammo paapeti suggatin"ti. (theragaa. 304; jaa. 1.15.386)- In such passages as ³dhamma, adhamma bear no equal fruit: adhamma leads to hell, dhamma causes one to reach heaven², dhamma means ³virtue² or ³good quality². "Tasmi.m kho pana samaye dhammaa honti" (dha. sa. 121), In such passages as, ³At the time of consciousness coming into existence, there occur dhammas²; ""dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharatii"ti-aadiisu (dii. ni. 2.373) nissattanijjiivataaya.m. and again, ³he abides watchful over certain dhammas²-dhamma implies absence of an entity or living soul.².... Remarks: The last sentence refers to the fourth Application of Mindfulness: contemplating dhammas in dhammas. All objects of mindfulness which have not been classified in the first three Applications of Mindfulness are classified in the fourth Application of Mindfulness. This Application includes the cetasikas which are the five hindrances, it includes the five khandhas, the six internal and the six external aayatanas (sense-bases), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four noble Truths. These are all dhammas without a living soul, they are not a person, not a being, not self. ****** Nina. 23961 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 3 (Jim & Nina) Hi Larry (& Nina), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > I don't remember if we discussed "penetration" but I would like to know > more about it. The main point of this paragraph seems to be that panna > both penetrates the general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, > not self) and leads "by endeavour" to a path moment of realization. > Nina, how do you see it? ..... Larry, you may wish to review these messages of Nina’s on: 1) penetration by panna and 2) ‘by endeavour’. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/23263 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23282 Your summary above sounds pretty good to me.... Metta, Sarah p.s I haven’t forgotten your qu....and will get to it. I’ve had to give priority to buying a computer chair with arm rests today - dr’s orders;-( =============================== 23962 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 6:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Path consciousness included in the first Noble Truth? Jim and Steve Jim, thanks very much for these comments. I have pasted below the commentary translation from STA on this point. I think it bears out your comments regarding the 2 ways of looking at the question (nippariyaayato and pariyaayato) -- see the references to 'from an absolute standpoint' and 'from a relative standpoint'. Steve, I think the first approach discussed in the passage is the one reflected in the statement you quoted. Is that how you see it? Jon +++++++++++++++++++++ STA Chapter 7, paragraph 53 Text (Abhidhammattha-Sangaha) The items joined with the path and the fruit are outside the four truths. Commentary (Abhidhammattha-vibhaavinii) _The items joined with the path_ are the remaining items, other than the eight factors, beginning with contact that are associated with the path, _and the fruit_ along with its associated items -- these are _outside_, excluded from, _the four truths_ from an absolute standpoint. But from a relative standpoint, since it is stated in the exposition of the faculty of having known that it is a 'path factor and included in the path' [Dhs 117 (#555)], it is possible, in the case of the dhammas belonging to the fruit, to include right view, etc., in the truth of the path, and the other dhammas associated with the paths and fruits in the truth of suffering because they share in the suffering constituted by conditioned formations. When this is done the summarising of all also occurs in the teaching of the truths. +++++++++++++++++++++ --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, > > I was just checking with the Abhidhammatthasangaha-vibhavini-tika > on your quotes below and saw something interesting. Note that > "strictly > speaking" refers to 'nippariyaayato', but the tika also has > something > to say from the point of view of 'pariyaayato' (in a roundabout way > of > speaking) that puts a~n~naataavindriya (arahattaphala?) in with the > truth of the path and the remaining supramundane paths and fruits > in with the truth of suffering (sa"nkhaaradukkhasaama~n~nena). You > should > be able to read this in your new tika translation which I don't > have yet. 23963 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 6:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Meanings of dhamma, no 3. Nina Thanks very much for this series, which I am finding very interesting. I am reminded of the passage in the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta, which also gives several meanings of 'dhamma'. Do you have the BPS translation by Bh Bodhi ('The Root of Existence')? Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > ... > As we have seen, the Dhammapada-Atthakata mentions dhamma as an > entity > without a living soul (nissatta, nijjiva): > <"Tasmi.m khopana samaye dhammaa honti, khandhaa hontii"ti (dha. > sa. 121) > Then, at that time dhammas occur, khandhas occur.> > ... 23964 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Dear Kio, I just take your last point. op 04-08-2003 19:16 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > The aim of learning more about different realities is detachment. > First > detachment from the idea of self, and later on from all objects (for > the > arahat). " > > Here, I feel that the last sentence is unnecessary because there is > only one practice, i.e., detached observation of whatever is > happening all around and inside us (so to speak) with honed > senses/awareness – without the notion of any disturbing thoughts, > including the thoughts of self or even the knowledge of Abhidhamma. > Since at that moment, no knowledge will help and that we have to let > go totally, and just be empty. N: When I wrote about my time with Acharn Sujin, it was actually a monologue. You must have had a reason to ask about personal reminiscences. Why? But I know very little about you, except that your background is Zen. I can understand that the Abhidhamma does not appeal to you. But, as you could read: "It is not in the book". Also the suttas are full of Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma is so practical. Because the Buddha explained that what we take for a person are only elements, mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rupa, which do not last and are devoid of self. We cling to self, but this may not be so obvious. Panna is needed to detect this. The suttas often refer to the belief in a self: We read in the ³Kindred Sayings²(III, Kindred Sayings on Elements, First Fifty, §1)about personality belief, sakkåyaditthi. Såriputta explained to Nakulapitar who was sick, how body and mind are sick: Herein, housefather, the untaught many-folk, who discern not those who are ariyans, who are unskilled in the ariyan doctrine, who are untrained in the ariyan doctrine...these regard the body as the self, they regard the self as having body, body as being in the self, the self as being in the body. ³I am the body², they say, ³body is mine,² and are possessed by this idea; and so possessed by this idea, when body alters and changes, owing to the unstable and changeful nature of body, then sorrow and grief, woe, lamentation, and despair arise in him... The same is said about the other four khandhas. Såriputta then explained that the person who does not have personality belief, though sick in body, is not sick in mind. We cling to citta, cetasika and rúpa, we take them for self. The are four kinds of personality belief with regard to each of the five khandhas: 1. We believe that we are identical with each of the five khandhas, we identify ourselves with them. 2. We believe that we ³own² them. 3. We believe that the khandhas are contained in ³us². 4. We believe that we are contained in them. Thus, there are twenty kinds of personality belief. In the "Kindred Sayings" (IV), the Buddha explained about the world: the world is in the ultimate sense the objects appearing one at a time through the six doors. You can verify that when sound is experienced hardness is not experienced at the same time. Are you familiar with these suttas? Which suttas do you like in particular? They are full of Abhidhamma. The object of vipassana is not a person, not a thing, but one nama or rupa at a time. Nama and rupa are ultimate realities, different from conventional realities. The Abhidhamma gives us many helpful details, for example about conceit. There can be clinging without wrong view, with wrong view and also with conceit. The sotapanna who has eradicated wrong view still has conceit, this is eradicated at the stage of the arahat. Last time in India we were talking about it how often conceit arises. When a beggar touches me, I have aversion, but, there is also, at a different moment conceit: how can he do this to me. There is still he and me. One of the teachers, Acharn Supee, said: there can be conceit when you think, they are dressed well, but I have a very plain dress. It occurs so often in daily life. Or we may think: The others have not taken food from the table yet, but I have served myself already. Conceit is so deeply accumulated. it is hard to detect it. I agree with you that when direct understanding arises there is not thinking. But, intellectual understanding is the foundation of direct understanding. If we would not learn and study first, how could there be direct understanding, we would not know what the objects of right understanding are. I end with a quote from the late Ven. Dhammadharo: "Wisdom, paññå, gets beyond words, beyond thinking about states, positions, ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality without thinking. Because the function of paññå is not thinking, its function is to see clearly, to penetrate that which we mistake for "sitting". We mistakenly think that a person is sitting. We have the wrong idea of "I am sitting". Anattå is the core of the Buddha's teaching, not attå, self." Nina. 23965 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 10:37am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Dear Nina: Respectfully butting in, Nina: -------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Abhidhamma is so practical. Because the Buddha > explained that what we take > for a person are only elements, mental phenomena, > nama, and physical > phenomena, rupa, which do not last and are devoid of > self." ---------------------------------------------------- Ditto! In all my years of buddhistic study, The Abhidhamma was the work that most impressed me, mainly the fabulous Dhammasanganipali. ----------------------------------------------------- Nina:" Are you familiar with > these suttas? Which > suttas do you like in particular? > They are full of Abhidhamma. The object of vipassana > is not a person, not a > thing, but one nama or rupa at a time. Nama and rupa > are ultimate realities, > different from conventional realities." ----------------------------------------------------- As many Bikkhus say, Vipassana is Abhidhamma. This quote finally reached up my understanding when I´ve read by the first time The Dhammasanganipali. Its calm and serene rhythm, the almost melodical pali sentences and a feeling of "up and down...up and down..." of the Hetus stanzas catched me up. Thereafter, matching other suttas with the abhidhamma´s concepts made me saw the hidden harmony between them. ---------------------------------------------------- Nina: " I end with a quote from the late > Ven. Dhammadharo: > > "Wisdom, paññå, gets beyond words, beyond thinking > about states, positions, > ideas about a self or a whole, and it sees reality > without thinking. Because > the function of paññå is not thinking, its function > is to see clearly, to > penetrate that which we mistake for "sitting"." ---------------------------------------------------- People used to live at Zen would recognize in those sentences some hints about the Noble Art of Zen Archery, but there is no necessity to make fuss with it. It´s a matter of fact one must get some prelimimary notions about buddhism to begin to sepak about it (I am always pleading for corrections!!!) ------------------------------------------------------ Nina: " We > mistakenly think that a > person is sitting. We have the wrong idea of "I am > sitting". Anattå is the > core of the Buddha's teaching, not attå, self."" ----------------------------------------------------- Et ces´t Fini! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23966 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > As many Bikkhus say, Vipassana is Abhidhamma. This > quote finally reached up my understanding when I´ve > read by the first time The Dhammasanganipali. Its calm > and serene rhythm, the almost melodical pali sentences > and a feeling of "up and down...up and down..." of the > Hetus stanzas catched me up. Thereafter, matching > other suttas with the abhidhamma´s concepts made me > saw the hidden harmony between them. > > ---------------------------------------------------- Hi Icaro, They are but slick words and sophistry, please don't allow yourself to be intoxicated by reading such things. The true dhamma is beyond any such descriptions, in Pali or not, and should be ignored. Though I have not read of what you speak I can recognize a man put under a semantic spell…the Buddha would not have composed such false insight wrapped in enticing words. This is my opinion. Metta, James 23967 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg) lokkutara cittas: Is solitude not dukkha? Hello, What an interesting question, one that I had not thought about before. However, since all 89 cittas are included in vinnana khanda (sp?), would not the lokuttara cittas, included in the 89, also be subject to the same characteristics as the other cittas: they are anicca (impermanent), they are dukkha and they are anatta? If the lokuttaras are not included with the entire group of cittas, then it would have been mentioned somewhere that they are not part of the rest of the khandas. Where in the Tipitaka would that reference be? The same is true for the cetasikas: the lokuttara cetasikas are also subject to the same conditions. metta, Betty _________________ > Steve > > Thanks for drawing to my attention the fact that the statement in > question relates specifically to the first Noble Truth, which I had > overlooked. Sorry for any confusion. > > As far as I understand, yes, the 8 lokuttara path factor cetasikas > cannot be the object of clinging and so do not fall within the five > aggregates of clinging that constitute the first Noble Truth. But I > don't know of any textual reference for this. > > Jon > > --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Jon, All > > > Would the 8 Lokuttara path factor cetasikas be included within the > > Noble Truth of Dukkha? I can see how they would be included in the > > 4 Truths, under the Noble Path, but being Lokuttara and not subject > > to > > clinging, wouldnt that make them excluded from the Noble Truth of > > Dukkha? > > > > Steve > > > 23968 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 5:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship? Hi Steve, We understand the discourse khanda Sutta differently. I see that the attributes "with effluent"("sasava") and "sustaining"("upadaniya") are attributes for whatever form, feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness. So to me the five sustenance-aggregates/pancupadanakkhandha are equivalent to the five aggregates/pancakkhandha. I believe that you see the five sustenance-aggregates (pancupadanakkhandha) are subsets of, and not necessrily equivalent to the five aggregates/pancakhandha. It is possible to interpret the original text of the discourse either way. As a translation of the the passage in MN109: "Bhikkhu, sustenance/upadana is neither the five sustenance- aggregates(pancupadanakkhandha), nor is sustenance/upadana elsewhere from the five sustenance-aggregates(pancupadanakkhandha). With desire & passion(chandarago) to the five sustenance-collections (pancupadanakkhandha), that is the sustenance(upadana) there." As I see it, whatever form, feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness are with effluent and are sustaining. They are like the fuel, flammable. Ignited with craving(tanha), desire & passion (chandarago), the fuel burns. This very burning, flame clinging to the aggregates, is the sustenance to becoming, thus birth. Without craving to the five aggregates, the fuel won't burn. Without sustenance, there is no more becoming, no further birth. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > > > Then we understand differently. > > > > As I see it, whatever cittas/cetasikas, consciousnesses, hearts, > > wills, intentions, minds, mind states, however refined and sublime, > > are clinging-aggregates. They are dukkha. "Lokuttara > > cittas/cetasikas" as "supramundane minds/mind states" might be an > > indication or sign of the cessation of dukkha. However, they > > themselves are clinging-aggregates, dukkha, not the cessation of > > dukkha. So in that sense, yes, they are included in the noble > truth > > of dukkha. > > > > That is how I see it. > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > Here are a few notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the "Aggregates Sutta" > > "The key terms to distinguishing the panca upadanakkhandha(five > clinging aggregates) from the pancakkhandhaa(5 aggregates) are sasava > upadaniya,"with taints and subject to clinging." The 5 clinging > aggregates are included within the 5 aggregates, for all members of > the former set must also be members of the latter set. However, the > fact that a distinction is drawn between them implies that there are > khandha which are anasava anupadaniya,"untainted and not subject to > clinging" On first consideration it would seem that the "bare > aggregates" are those of the Arahant,who has eliminated the asava and > upadana. However in the Abhidhamma all rupa is classified as sasava > and upadaniya, and so to the resultant(vipaka) and functional (kiriya) > mental aggregates of the Arahant....The only aggregates classed as > anasava and anupadaniya (untainted and not subject to clinging) are > the four mental aggregates occurring on the cognitive occasions of > the four supramundane paths and fruits... > > Aggregates Sutta> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22- > 048.html > > > To my reading this would make lokuttara mental aggregates excluded > from the "five aggregates of clinging." > > Steve 23969 From: Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 6:01pm Subject: Vism XIV, 4, 5, 6 Hi all, The next three paragraphs illustrate the three modes of knowing (sanna, consciousness, panna) by means of the simile of a child, a villager, and a money changer all looking at a heap of coins. Like the child, sanna knows only the outward appearance. Like the villager, consciousness is able to penetrate the characteristics of the coins. Like the money changer who knows every aspect of the coins, panna extends further to the manifestation of the path. If one were to consider these three modes of knowing in terms of function it might make more sense to say consciousness sees the object as bare phenomenon and sanna recognizes it as a particular object. However, I think what this simile is pointing to is three levels of truth. Sanna is fundamentally error. It is incapable of seeing an object "as it is" in terms of anicca, dukkha, anatta. Sanna is a patchwork of signs (concepts) and this is the level of most of our ordinary understanding. Consciousness, at a developed level, is able to see directly and immediately the three general characteristics of an object. It is very interesting that this isn't enough to bring about the manifestation of the path. I think what is missing is the Four Noble Truths. In my opinion, it is panna's job to see and understand, directly, the truth of the Four Noble Truths. I notice in the Vimuttimagga the 4 NT are given as a proximate cause of panna. In Vism. XIV, 6 it says that panna does not arise with all perception (sanna) and consciousness but when it does arise perception and consciousness are always present. I take this to mean concept is always present with panna because I think the "sign" (nimitta?) sanna makes is concept. Discussion? Larry 23970 From: eaglenarius Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 6:23pm Subject: new comer Hi all, I'm a new comer in this list. As required by Mr. Moderator, I'll introduced myself. Name : Eaglenarius Timotius (Male) Age : 35 years old Country/location : Indonesia/Tangerang(close to Jakarta) I know this groups by browsing www.cyberdistributeur, and I hope I can understand Buddhism better by joining this groups. But I'm not sure that I can share something brilliant due to lack of my knowledge of Buddhism. Humble bow, Thanks, Eagle 23971 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 7:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new comer Hi Eagle, In my opinion, lack of knowledge of Buddhism can be a great asset to learning Buddhadhamma. Welcome and looking forward to corresponding. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: eaglenarius To: Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 6:23 PM Subject: [dsg] new comer > Hi all, > > I'm a new comer in this list. As required by Mr. Moderator, I'll introduced > myself. > Name : Eaglenarius Timotius (Male) > Age : 35 years old > Country/location : Indonesia/Tangerang(close to Jakarta) > > I know this groups by browsing www.cyberdistributeur, and I hope I can > understand Buddhism better by joining this groups. But I'm not sure that I > can share something brilliant due to lack of my knowledge of Buddhism. > > Humble bow, > Thanks, > > Eagle 23972 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My Conclusion upon contemplation Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as the abse Hi Nori, Beware of attachment to the idea of a future with equanimity--it's still attachment, to an unreality, a concept (the future). Equanimity (good or bad--there can be either) arises only in the present. This is very important, I think. All that said, thanks very much for your forthright comments--investigation is good, I think, and mindfulness of impermanence of great value. But 'I' can't guard thoughts or feelings--mindfulness (sati) can, though. These distinctions are important, I think, and can be learned from the tipitaka (pariyatti). Then understanding can condition sati, and so on. mike p.s. As I see it, good companions aren't those who love me--they are those who continually remind me of the Buddhadhamma--which always leads to detachment. > And so, for now on, I will be mindful of Anicca (Inconstant; > unsteady; impermanent). I will guard my thoughts and feelings. And > so, solitude will not be as much stress for me no longer; and will > eventually turn to none. I will have equanimity with gain and loss. I > will not fear or avoid good companions, ones who love me, nor welcome > them. I will have equanimity. 23973 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 9:06pm Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 6 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:21:55 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 6 B Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 6 B tato attaanampi oloketvaa -- ``ahampi sobhaami. Then Rahula looked at himself and thought: ³I am also beautiful. sace bhagavaa catuusumahaadiipesu cakkavattirajja.m akarissaa, If the Blessed One would reign as a Universal monarch over the four continents, mayha.m pari.naayaka.t.thaanantara.m adassaa. he would give me the position of advisor. eva.m sante ativiya jambudiipatala.m asobhissaa''ti If that would happen, Rose Apple Land would be glorious.² attabhaava.m nissaaya gehassita.m chandaraaga.m uppaadesi. He indulged in attachment connected with worldly life, because of his bodily appearance. bhagavaapi purato gacchantova cintesi -- The Blessed One who walked in front, thought, ``paripu.n.nacchavima.msalohito daani raahulassa attabhaavo. ³Now Rahula¹s outward appearance and complexion (skin, flesh and blood) have reached perfection; rajaniiyesu ruupaaramma.naadiisu hi cittassa pakkhandanakaalo jaato, now the time has come for his mind to rejoice in enticing objects of sight and so on; ki.m bahulataaya nu kho raahulo viitinaametii''ti. why is Rahula wasting his time with so much desire!² atha sahaavajjaneneva pasannaudake maccha.m viya, parisuddhe aadaasama.n.dale mukhanimitta.m viya ca tassa ta.m cittuppaada.m addasa. Then, by thus adverting his attention to it, he saw the arising of that consciousness of Rahula, as clearly as if he saw a fish in clear water, and as if he saw in a clean mirror the reflection of a face. English: Then Rahula looked at himself and thought: ³I am also beautiful. If the Blessed One would reign as a Universal monarch over the four continents, he would give me the position of advisor. If that would happen, Rose Apple Land would be glorious.² He indulged in attachment connected with worldly life, because of his bodily appearance. The Blessed One who walked in front, thought, ³Now Rahula¹s outward appearance and complexion have reached perfection; now the time has come for his mind to rejoice in enticing objects of sight and so on; why is Rahula wasting his time with so much desire!² Then, by thus adverting his attention to it, he saw the arising of that consciousness of Rahula, as clearly as if he saw a fish in clear water, and as if he saw in a clean mirror the reflection of a face. ***** Nina. 23974 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Meanings of dhamma, B.B. texts. Dear Jon, Thank you , I can also use these. I will go soon to the Saddaniti, and this has many more, even concepts as dhammas. Nina op 06-08-2003 15:30 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > I am reminded of the passage in the commentary to the Mulapariyaya > Sutta, which also gives several meanings of 'dhamma'. Do you have > the BPS translation by Bh Bodhi ('The Root of Existence')? 23975 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Aug 6, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Trying to understand my last meditation hi, Wondering if anyone can help me clarify what occured during this mornings meditation. I must admit I have only recently been practicing breathing meditation in what I believe to be a correct manner. I my meditation this morning something that seemed almost "supernatural" occured. I was wondering what everyones thoughts on it were. I never really reached this state before but it was as though time stood still and everything just ceased. This happened after 4 hours of breathing meditation. All sounds ceased. All activity ceased. All reality faded away. All that remained was "me" and my breath. It happened for a considerably long lenght of "time" due to my reference of counts of breath. It almost seemed as though even breathing didn't matter anymore. As soon as I thought "this is strange and acknowledged reality by questioning - what happened to it?", it all returned again. I eventually after getting back to my breath got back to all things ceasing again. It was as though "my" mind and attention toward the sense objects was the sustenance for it. Like I was God creating it. Drawing my attention away made all things cease. (I know this is not from the tipitaka but...) In the Upanishads it is said that there is only Brahman, and nothing exists apart from him. In that philosophy (which partly helped give birth to buddhism), "I" is due to Brahman dwelling in neoscience (not- knowing). It was as though I awoke to Brahman and I was there all alone. Fear overcame me. My longing for loved ones, memory of my identity & place, and fear of death/loneliness brought me back. Could this be? Could it be that only "I" exist and sustain existence; including all of you beings? (I think not) Obviously all of you exist out there as well independently; Don't you? Is there one? Is there multitudes? This is the mystery. I am trying to see where the tipitaka can clarify this? Please excuse my ignorance of buddha dhamma, I am just trying to understand it in easier terms. thanks, nori 23976 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Dear James, James: "Though > I have not read of what you speak I can recognize a > man put under a > semantic spell…the Buddha would not have composed > such false insight > wrapped in enticing words." ----------------------------------------------------- Dear James, Sometimes I ask to myself if all people that said that the Abhidhamma is abstruse, difficult, heretical, &c, even had spend time to learn pali and read it. I must confess to you - I´ve only read the Dhammasanganipali. My skills on Pali are very limited... but its doctrine is sound. The first stanza of de Mattika begins hitting the very core of own Buddhism: Dhamma! Kusala and Akusala Dhamma. And at the next 21 verses all types of Dhamma in three aspects or modes are catalogued. That´s the beginning. Of course, being the Dhammasanganipali - and all the Abhidhamma - not heretical but a real member of the Tipitaka, you won´t find in these pages reveries as the descriptions of the Buddhas of the Ten directions or the Amida´s votes or the crown of Vairocana. All these addenda came a long time after the Historical Buddha and the Abhidhamma, compiled circa three hundred years after Buddha´s passage by His most devoted disciples (named symbolically as Ananda) states the real teachings of the Holy One at the very bones of Dhamma. James, sometimes I´ve inserted passages of the Lotus Sutra in my Abhidhamma´s readings , only to relax! But if one see this as a manifestation of the compassionate feeling of the Tathagata, all this apparent contradictions will fade away at a good time. And, at last, I read not any sophistry in the Dhammasangani pages... that couldn´t be possible. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23977 From: sinweiy Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 3:08am Subject: Question? Dear All, Where do Buddhas come from? Thanks 23978 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: Lokkutara cittas: included in the five aggregates of clinging? Betty Yes, it is an interesting question as you say. All 89 cittas and all 52 cetasikas are included in the five aggregates , but not quite all are included in the 'five aggregates of clinging'. As I understand it, certain aspects of the lokuttara cittas are said to be, like nibbana itself, incapable of being the object of clinging. These dhammas that cannot be the object of clinging do not fall within the first Noble Truth (which is stated in terms of the 'five aggregates of clinging'), strictly considered, even though they also share the 3 characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta . (This indicates that Noble Truth of suffering and the characteristic of dukkha are not simply one and the same thing.) Jon --- "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello, > What an interesting question, one that I had not thought about > before. > However, since all 89 cittas are included in vinnana khanda (sp?), > would not > the lokuttara cittas, included in the 89, also be subject to the > same > characteristics as the other cittas: they are anicca (impermanent), > they are > dukkha and they are anatta? If the lokuttaras are not included with > the > entire group of cittas, then it would have been mentioned somewhere > that > they are not part of the rest of the khandas. Where in the Tipitaka > would that reference be? > > The same is true for the cetasikas: the lokuttara cetasikas are > also subject to the same conditions. > > metta, > Betty 23979 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] new comer Hello Eagle Welcome to the list. Please feel free to join in at any time. It's not necessary to have any particular knowledge about the teachings. I hope you find the discussions here interesting and useful. Jon --- eaglenarius wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm a new comer in this list. As required by Mr. Moderator, I'll > introduced myself. > Name : Eaglenarius Timotius (Male) > Age : 35 years old > Country/location : Indonesia/Tangerang(close to Jakarta) > > I know this groups by browsing www.cyberdistributeur, and I hope I > can > understand Buddhism better by joining this groups. But I'm not sure > that I > can share something brilliant due to lack of my knowledge of > Buddhism. > > Humble bow, > Thanks, > > Eagle 23980 From: john196920022001 Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 4:35am Subject: I wanted to share the following Theravada Sutta that I came accross some time ago. It's in the Anguttara Nikaya V.159 of the Pali Canon. It's called the Udayi Sutta. This sutta discusses the qualities of a teacher of the dhamma. One thing that this sutta has taught me is, why do I teach the dhamma? It it for material reward? Money? There are Buddhist organizations that charge a fee for dhamma teachings. The dhamma is free. There are always extenuating circumstances. I am one who used to charge other for meditation teaching. The more I study the buddha"I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi, in Ghosita's Park. Now at that time Ven. Udayin was sitting surrounded by a large assembly of householders, teaching the Dhamma. Ven. Ananda saw Ven. Udayin sitting surrounded by a large assembly of householders, teaching the Dhamma, and on seeing him went to the Blessed One. On arrival, he bowed down to the Blessed One and sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Ven. Udayin, lord, is sitting surrounded by a large assembly of householders, teaching the Dhamma." "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when five qualities are established within the person teaching. Which five? "[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step- by-step.' "[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].' "[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out of compassion.' "[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.' "[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak without disparaging myself or others.' "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when these five qualities are established within the person teaching." This sutta has helped me distinguish those who make profit from teaching dhamma and meditation, and those who are dhamma teachers. Believe me I know. I used to make a business of teaching dhamma. I just wanted to share this with everyone. Metta JB 23981 From: vimala Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 7:34am Subject: Re: Trying to understand my last meditation norakat147 writes: <> Hi -- Bhante Gunaratana writes the following about some of the many ideas we have about what meditation is - and what it isn't. "Misconception #2 Meditation means going into a trance Here again the statement could be applied accurately to certain systems of meditation, but not to Vipassana. Insight meditation is not a form of hypnosis. You are not trying to black out your mind so as to become unconscious. You are not trying to turn yourself into an emotionless vegetable. If anything, the reverse is true. You will become more and more attuned to your own emotional changes. You will learn to know yourself with ever- greater clarity and precision. In learning this technique, certain states do occur which may appear trance-like to the observer. But they are really quite the opposite. In hypnotic trance, the subject is susceptible to control by another party, whereas in deep concentration the meditator remains very much under his own control. The similarity is superficial, and in any case the occurrence of these phenomena is not the point of Vipassana. As we have said, the deep concentration of Jhana is a tool or stepping stone on the route of heightened awareness. Vipassana by definition is the cultivation of mindfulness or awareness. If you find that you are becoming unconscious in meditation, then you aren't meditating, according to the definition of the word as used in the Vipassana system. It is that simple. " w/ Metta, "Vimala" Robert njmc@s... http://satipatthana.org -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ As a solid rock is not shaken by the wind, even so the wise remain unshaken amidst blame and praise. Random Dhammapada Verse 81 23982 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 11:00am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 4. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:09:42 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 4. meanings of dhamma, no 4. As we saw in the Atthasaalinii that dhamma can also mean hetu: This text refers to the ³Book of Analysis², Vibhanga, the second Book of the Abhidhamma which deals with the four analytic insights, patisambhidaa: 1. insight of attha *, result (of a cause). 2. insight of dhamma: condition or cause. 3. insight of nirutti, of the language corresponding to reality, expressing attha and dhamma. 4. insight of patibhaana: of illumination, confidence of speech. The knowledge of the three aboive mentioned knowledges in all details. (See dict of Ven. Nyanatiloka). Arahats with the highest distinction were endowed with the four patisambhidas. There are different degrees of them. The Buddha¹s chief disciples did not have them in the same degree of the Buddha, the other arahats had them in a lesser degree than the chief disciples. The Vibhanga states according to the knowledge of attha and knowledge of dhamma with regard to the four Truths: Thus, in these texts dhamma as hetu, condition or cause has been referred to. Also in the ³Pa.tisambhidaamagga², the Path of Discrimination, the four analytical knowledges have been explained. In the Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Sevens, IV, 37, we read about seven conditions leading to the four ³analyses². We read at the end: * Attha has many meanings, this word can designate: purpose, meaning, but also result or consequence. Nina. 23983 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 11:00am Subject: Time with A. S. and Dh KK Dear friends, My Time with A. Sujin and also Dhamma in Kraeng Kacang are now on web: http://www.zolag.co.uk Nina 23984 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 3 (Jim & Nina) Hi Larry, op 05-08-2003 02:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I don't remember if we discussed "penetration" but I would like to know > more about it. The main point of this paragraph seems to be that panna > both penetrates the general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, > not self) and leads "by endeavour" to a path moment of realization. > Nina, how do you see it? N: Ussaketi: to endeavour, but Jim thought about developing. It could be developing with endeavour. There were difficulties with the stem in Pali, not so clear. Yes, only panna can penetrate the general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, > not self) and leads "by endeavour" to a path moment of realization. L: In Vism. XIV, 6 it says that panna does not arise with all perception (sanna) and consciousness but when it does arise perception and consciousness are always present. I take this to mean concept is always present with panna because I think the "sign" (nimitta?) sanna makes is concept. N: The cetasika sanna arises with each citta. Whenever there is citta there has to be sanna. If a concept is the object, sanna marks and remembers the concept, and if a paramattha dhamma is the object, sanna marks and remembers that object. We should not invariably link sanna with concept, it experiences the same object as the citta it accompanies and it performs its function. The word sign, nimitta, is used in the subco, and also the making of a sign, and this may refer to the kasinas. Also yellow and blue could refer to samatha (kasinas), but this text is really difficult to decipher. I am not sure whether this passage about sanna refers here to samatha, I shall try to study more. Nina. 23985 From: mollyo Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: Trying to understand my last meditation & Dhamma Hi everyone. My name is Molly. I practice Vipassana meitation as tought by S.N. Goenka I live in the United States, in Hawaii since 1992 and in upstate N.Y. before that. All that I have experienced through my interest in the Dhamma has had a profound effect on my life. Sitting the Vipassana course in this tradition opened me up to knowing what the Buddha tought by experiencing it directly first. Only then, after a few years, did I take up the study of the ancient Theravedan texts (starting with the suttas, then discovering, to my great satisfaction, the Abidhamma and the Visuddhimagga). Eleven years after my first course, I still sit regularly, I study little, but only by circumstance rather than by choice. The Dhamma is the profound truth and law. Once one knows Dhamma, one can only not know Dhamma by choice. Ignorance is lessened. Wisdom begins to multiply. Living life away from a center, amidst all kinds of influences, new age, spiritualism, from the most bizarre to the most mundane, I sometimes lose a little of the awareness of what Dhamma is. Recently I purchased a series of tapes explaining the satipatthanna sutta, recorded during a course of that name by Goenka (one must complete 3 ten day courses before attending this old student course). In one of the tapes he explains what Dhamma means. It means "contains" He eplains it in terms of the four foundations of mindfulness, awareness of body, feelings, mind and mental contents. Body, in Pali, is Kaya, body is body, it is either sitting or standing or walking or lieing down. We simply know this. Feelings are bodily feelings either pleasant, unpleasant or nuetral, leading us to react with craving, aversion or ignorance- if we are not aware and equanemous, and if we are, then these very same sensations will lead us to come out of these three roots of misery, our observation of these sensations with full awareness and acceptance (as much equanimity as we can muster up in the moment), helps us to eradicate these defilements, leading us to ultimate liberation from suffering (through accumulation of Paramis and development of Bojhangas) (incidentally, this referrence to ultimate liberation, Nibanna, full enlightenment, from the stage of Sotapanna onward and up to Ariya, is very distinct in Goenka Vipassana. This path is not simply a path of mindfulness to help one live a more peaceful life, though this occurs, this path is truly a path to enlightenment). Mind is Citta, mind is a mind of craving or a mind of aversion or a nuetral mind with neither craving nor aversion. One simply knows mind as mind or Citta as Citta. One is equanemous: "now my mind is a mind with craving, the equanimity develops as one accepts one's mind as it is, rather than imagining it to be a different kind of mind (such as a loving mind, or etc.). One weakens the judgement of mind states, knowing they are temporary... subject to change, and realizing the no-self or anatta of this ephemeral phenomenon. The mind becomes a subject of scientific research, objective observation rather than a personal process to be protected, maintained, prettied up, etc.. And finally, the fourth satipatthanna, mental contents, or, in Pali, Dhamma. Here we reach the most insightful aspect of these four foundations of mindfulness. The mental contents, the Dhamma, or "what mind contains," holds much wisdom for us. We have heard before that Dhamma is everything. Now we hear that Dhamma is what mind contains... Then we remember hearing over and over again, from that simple, ever beloved, easily grasped, Dhammapada, that "mind matters most," that everything is mind-made. Dhamma is nature Dhamma is Law (of cause and effect) Dhamma is everything Everything is mind made Everything that we experience is Dhamma, mind-made, an effect or a cause and an effect and a cause. Trust Dhamma. this i have heard many times from those who have sat many many vipassana courses. as the mind contains many changing things, we realise, at some point, that, although it is not easy to grasp, we actually do create all of this Dhamma. All is Dhamma. It appears to be so is one thing and it is actually so is yet another thing. People appear to be real, they appear to be something outside of us and yet- they are Dhamma also, just as a thought is Dhamma, or a mirage or a bubble or a stream in the forest. We need not contemplate further, wondering about other people's kamma and how does it coincide with our kamma, etc.. we are best to simply accept that dhamma is dhamma is dhamma and it is a manifestation of our own making and no more. it may appear to be far more complicated than that. it may appear as if someone has harmed us, someone has lied to us or stole from us or hit us, but indeed, they do not exist outside of Dhamma, our own mind made them and this action. We completely created this experience. we are not victims. we are creators, always. this concept is so radical for a western mind! In the USA we hire lawyers to prove that we are innocent victims of this crime or of that injustice... much ado about nothing, we harm ourselves further by searching for blame rather than accepting responsibility. This lesson is so difficult to grasp, it is undesireable. it requires deep acceptance and understanding. Our attention should always be on ourselves. This is why Vipassana is so useful and profound, leading us to deeper and deeper understanding of the true nature of reality, taking us into the experience of our own changing nature, taking the attention off of others and into our own body, feelings, mind and mental contents. may we all be liberated. may we all come out of suffering. may we all develop goodwill. may we all develop the Paramis. the path to liberation is a sobering one. may we all keep the five precepts and if we break even slightly just one of them, may we quickly re-commit to them, and move on. sober sober sober self-responsibilty self-reliance self-acceptance leading one to no-self apparently, strangely, illogical and yet intuitively truth know thyself to abandon thyself... love thyself to love others (for we are all one...) we are all buddhas to be, we all contain the seeds of wisdom, all human beings understand some Dhamma. All human beings seek wisdom. All human beings have the seed of Chanda for right meditation. be proud to abandon pride! for proud with understanding and without attatchment helps us abandon false pride with imagined attributes and attatchment. Stdy the Paramis. they are our greatest resource of knowledge. What to do? "develop the Paramis" When we fail at a noble task, we should aknowledge this failure and immediately move on, move forward, begin again, start again, try again, never quit, keep working!!! When we sit a ten day residential course at a Vipassana Meditation Center, we are asked to sit in the same place for long periods at a time (though no more than about an hour at a time). The sitting meditation is relentless, totalling 12 hours in a day. We are asked not to be perfect, but to "keep coming back," to keep trying,to "start again" constantly reminded that we are "bound to be successful." It is so comforting to have this constant reminder to "start again," preparing us later in life to, in fact, "start again," once we have quit while striving for a goal! All is not lost!!! Don't be a quitter!!! The teaching, the technique, the center atmosphere of safety from outside influence (no phone calls or visitors, etc.) all contribute to an outstanding environment for deep inner work, developing self-awareness, slowly, deliberately developing that power of powers: equanimity, the seventh bojhanga, or factor of enlightenment. Metta, Molly Message: 12 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 06:37:22 -0000 From: "norakat147" Subject: Trying to understand my last meditation hi, Wondering if anyone can help me clarify what occured during this mornings meditation. 23986 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Path consciousness included in the first Noble Truth? Jon, > Jim and Steve > > Jim, thanks very much for these comments. I have pasted below the > commentary translation from STA on this point. I think it bears out > your comments regarding the 2 ways of looking at the question > (nippariyaayato and pariyaayato) -- see the references to 'from an > absolute standpoint' and 'from a relative standpoint'. Thank-you for posting the commentary translation extract from STA which gave me the first opportunity of seeing what the STA is like. I checked the quote with the Pali and found that they agree fairly well together. I liked the renderings: ' from an absolute standpoint' and 'from a relative standpoint'. I think the Analysis of Truth in the Book of Analysis (Vibhanga) could shed some more light on the four noble truths as there is a section that relates it to the Abhidhamma triplets and couplets. It seems that from my reading so far, strictly speaking, the lokuttaradhammas are excluded from the five upadanakkhandhas. The Path of Discrimination (see Treatise of Knowledge) provides some interesting details about the status of the paths and the fruits expecially with regards to the last 3 of the 22 faculties (indriyas). See for example §7 which includes: the final-knower faculty (the a~n~naataavindriya of the arahant) is to be directly known, the origin of the final-knower faculty is to be directly known, the cessation of the final-knower faculty is to be directly known, the path leading to the cessation of the final-knower faculty is to be directly known. Also at §92: When he sees the final-knower faculty he abandons [it]. . . When he sees nibbaana which merges in the deathless he abandons [it]. So nothing is spared in this ruthless and systematic abandoning, not even nibbaana! The final-knower faculty is also included in the following formulas: sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa/dukkhaa according to §221. Best wishes, Jim 23987 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear James, > James: "Though > > I have not read of what you speak I can recognize a > > man put under a > > semantic spell…the Buddha would not have composed > > such false insight > > wrapped in enticing words." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Dear James, > > Sometimes I ask to myself if all people that said > that the Abhidhamma is abstruse, difficult, heretical, > &c, even had spend time to learn pali and read it. > I must confess to you - I´ve only read the > Dhammasanganipali. My skills on Pali are very > limited... but its doctrine is sound. Dear Icaro, I don't see how knowing Pali can affect a person's ability to think, but if you think so we have definitely reached an impasse. I chose to respond to your post because it so blatantly illustrates what I see in so many who embrace the Abhidhamma…a practically fanatical absorption with it. Here you are, fawning and slobbering all over this work called the Dhammasanganipali like it is the latest Harry Potter novel. I am trying to make you understand that such a response is not what the Buddha intended with the dhamma. The true dhamma is supposed to make a person reflect inward, not worship any kind of writings as masterpieces that hold the secrets to the universe. You won`t see such response to the suttas because they do their intended purpose, reflect the reader/listener inward. But I do see this response over and over again to the Abhidhamma because it seems to have a different purpose: to pontificate its brilliance and seeming logic about everything. Wow. Like such writings aren`t in complete abundance already. They aren`t worth a dime. Metta, James 23988 From: Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question? sinweiry Buddha's arise due to conditions as do we all. TG In a message dated 8/7/2003 3:42:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sinweiy@y... writes: > Dear All, > > Where do Buddhas come from? > > Thanks > 23989 From: Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Trying to understand my last meditation Hi Nori I've been to that place as well a long time ago. I think it will require a meditation expert to make sense of it. It does not seem to correspond to the description of Jhanas found in Buddhism. It is certainly a super-normal experience that seems like infinity combined perhaps with bliss...truely indescribable. Personally I think it has little or nothing to do with enlightenment or insight and for myself I wouldn't read too much into it as far as thinking that it is some sort of "answer." Just my thoughts. TG In a message dated 8/6/2003 11:39:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > > hi, > > Wondering if anyone can help me clarify what occured during this > mornings meditation. > > I must admit I have only recently been practicing breathing > meditation in what I believe to be a correct manner. > > I my meditation this morning something that seemed > almost "supernatural" occured. I was wondering what everyones > thoughts on it were. > > I never really reached this state before but it was as though time > stood still and everything just ceased. This happened after 4 hours > of breathing meditation. All sounds ceased. All activity ceased. All > reality faded away. All that remained was "me" and my breath. It > happened for a considerably long lenght of "time" due to my reference > of counts of breath. It almost seemed as though even breathing didn't > matter anymore. As soon as I thought "this is strange and > acknowledged reality by questioning - what happened to it?", it all > returned again. I eventually after getting back to my breath got back > to all things ceasing again. > > It was as though "my" mind and attention toward the sense objects was > the sustenance for it. Like I was God creating it. Drawing my > attention away made all things cease. > > (I know this is not from the tipitaka but...) > > In the Upanishads it is said that there is only Brahman, and nothing > exists apart from him. In that philosophy (which partly helped give > birth to buddhism), "I" is due to Brahman dwelling in neoscience (not- > knowing). It was as though I awoke to Brahman and I was there all > alone. Fear overcame me. My longing for loved ones, memory of my > identity &place, and fear of death/loneliness brought me back. > > Could this be? Could it be that only "I" exist and sustain existence; > including all of you beings? (I think not) > > Obviously all of you exist out there as well independently; Don't you? > > Is there one? Is there multitudes? This is the mystery. > > I am trying to see where the tipitaka can clarify this? > > Please excuse my ignorance of buddha dhamma, I am just trying to > understand it in easier terms. > > > thanks, > nori 23990 From: Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 4, 5, 6 Nina: "The cetasika sanna arises with each citta. Whenever there is citta there has to be sanna. If a concept is the object, sanna marks and remembers the concept, and if a paramattha dhamma is the object, sanna marks and remembers that object. We should not invariably link sanna with concept, it experiences the same object as the citta it accompanies and it performs its function." Larry: Hi Nina, I would say sanna's function is to conceptualize. When a reality arises it gives the reality a name. This is the meaning of sanna "marking" its object. Why can consciousness penetrate the characteristics and sanna cannot? What can panna do that consciousness can't? Going by the simile of child, villager, money changer panna is the same kind of knowledge as consciousness, only there is more of it. This knowledge is both experiential and conceptual. The money changer experiences the coins with all 5 physical senses plus he knows where the coins came from, who made them, and their true value. Contra reposte? Larry 23991 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Kio, clinging to self. Dear James: James: "I don't see how knowing Pali can affect a person's > ability to think, > but if you think so we have definitely reached an > impasse." ----------------------------------------------------- Just thinking. When I think, I make use of words, concepts or symbols. Since the Pali Language was used to dictate and write the suttas, so the mind that elaborates such concepts and ideas follow the same channels. For example: when a hindu thinks about dhamma, the first reference that comes to his mind is the hindi word "dharma", that means directly "religion". But we know that the meaning of Dhamma goes beyond this biased definition of mere "Religion". My mind is not more or less deranged ( that´s not the case, I can guarantee you!) if I learn pali or any other language. ------------------------------------------------- James: because it so blatantly > illustrates what I > see in so many who embrace the Abhidhamma…a > practically fanatical > absorption with it. ------------------------------------------------- Oh well... I was just thinking that we were talking about Dhamma. My erudition is very far to be perfect,my absorption is only a dream...but the Boddhisatta rank is totally far beyond my present ambition! -------------------------------------------------- James: Here you are, fawning and > slobbering all over > this work called the Dhammasanganipali like it is > the latest Harry > Potter novel. I am trying to make you understand > that such a > response is not what the Buddha intended with the > dhamma. ------------------------------------------------- Au contraire, ma chèrie ami! i am not fawning and slobbering about the Dhammasangani... I am chortling with glee!!! This first book of Abhidhamma, in my humble opinion, is the best exposition of Dhamma I´ve ever read. At the Mahayana branch, the Hrdaya Sutra and the Suddhama Pundarika Sutta ( Lotus Sutra) can make a stand also on bearing the true Dhamma flag... but the Dhammasangani is really a landmark!!! Harry Potter could not handle a candle of it, anyway... --------------------------------------------------- James: The true > dhamma is supposed to make a person reflect inward, > not worship any > kind of writings as masterpieces that hold the > secrets to the > universe. -------------------------------------------------- At the first standpoint, all the sorts of Dhamma fall short into two categories: Kusala and Akusala. And with the interplay of Nama and Rupa with Citta, we get a classification of Reality ( at a sense, Dhamma is reality). As a poetic masterpiece, the Dhammasangani is more alike a valley of dry bones... but hits the right point! --------------------------------------------------- James: You won`t see such response to the suttas > because they do > their intended purpose, reflect the reader/listener > inward. But I do > see this response over and over again to the > Abhidhamma because it > seems to have a different purpose: to pontificate > its brilliance and > seeming logic about everything. ------------------------------------------------- All the suttas have this purpose...and more! Only to mention an off-topic subject, the famous Daishonin´s comys of Lotus Sutras - I suppose they´re called Goshos or something alike, I haven´t read any - seems also to point onward a direct understanding of the hidden harmony between the Suttas and all the Dhammas. But...it´s an other story! -------------------------------------------------- James: Wow. Like such > writings aren`t in > complete abundance already. They aren`t worth a > dime. --------------------------------------------------- My ego is a illusion... anatta. But all the effort I put on my readings deserves all my money !!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23992 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 4:25pm Subject: To Icaro & James with metta Hi Icaro (& James), Like you both say, we all find different texts of greatest value. Icaro, James has his own colourful way of welcoming and establishing rapport with new members;-) For my part, I greatly appreciate any encouragement and enthusiasm to read any particular Tipitaka texts. In this case, I’ve always found it rather frustrating to read the PTS translation by Mrs R-D of Dhammasangani and you really encourage me to consider getting a copy of the Pali to read alongside. Jim has also greatly encouraged me to do this too with his enthusiasm and familiarity of the same text. It may not be this year or next, but I find your inspiration in this regard most uplifting. James, I’d really be glad to hear which Tipitaka text or sutta you find most inspiring. Others too...... Fortunately, there are now good translations of most the suttapitaka texts, so the experience of reading a translation is not so frustrating these days, I find. As you say, it is the ‘inward reflection’ and deeper understanding that count, not the language or the particular text or number of texts read. Also, I know that you’re leaving very soon for Egypt and your new position there. I’m sure we all wish you very well with this and look forward to hearing from you on dhamma in your daily life in Egypt. Perhaps you could send some letters or diary entries on this. Perhaps if you stay long enough, we’ll even have a chance to visit in retirement as your trip to Asia has been delayed;-) With metta, Sarah ====== 23993 From: suzakico Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 7:27pm Subject: Nina, More about my backgroud Dear Nina, The reason why I asked your personal experience is to find if I can identify with your real-life experiences. By referring to your description, I thought I can understand what I have gone through and the dhamma I understand has any similarity, resemblance, or difference from that of your experience and learning process. I thought by highlighting these points, I can deepen my understanding and modify ways if any to enrich my practice in daily life. In actuality, as I mentioned, I did not want to disturb the flow and that I was like a child to listen to a story meaning that I could be open to listen well as to what you were pointing. Still, I made a mental note for my own reflection. I was happy to hear the story. In spite of obvious difficulty of me getting inside of your experience, I still feel that I came up with certain understanding as to what you may have gone through due to your elaborated responses,( upon which I am still hopeful that we can exchange ideas further). I appreciate the effort and the process we are going through very much. ((Just highlighting one thing that you clarified in the last post was that knowledge has a place but at the moment of panna, words, thinking, etc. do not help in that instant. Direct understanding of what is, is the essence.)) Now, since you asked about my background, what sutra I like, etc. Let me tell my side of the story a bit. Actually, my name, work, place where I live, my thoughts, background, Zen and vipassana experiences, research on various Buddha?fs teachings, my understanding, and else are all posted at my home page. No reason to hide, I am just curious to learn as much as I can. I wrote these with utmost sincerity, so you can take a look at: www.suzaki.has.it The reason it is open is that people can comment to me so that I can have a process of check and balance going for my learning as well as for the mutual benefit. Since there are many files, I may point one: This is from a recent dialogue held at the group called, Triplegem about theory and practice of dhamma. http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/sanghamindfulness.html Another one about my learning experience, I can direct you or others to my vipassana experience. Although I put effort to be precise in the way of description, it is still a raw stuff. So please be advised to examine carefully without any bias or creating any false image when reading this: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/vipassanareport.html There are more of these, but I believe this will give you an idea. You also asked my favorite suttas. There are many that I can comment, but I will point only one for now. For this, please see my next post titled, Nibbana-Total Unbinding. Kio 23994 From: suzakico Date: Thu Aug 7, 2003 7:29pm Subject: Nibbana – Total Unbinding This post may point not just what sutta I like but how I interpret the words with my background. I wrote this in response to one practitioner's request about my dhamma experience and found as a part of my file: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/nibbana.html Nibbana – Total Unbinding Patrick, Let me give you another try (By the way I sent another post prior to this, but it was rejected by the gatekeeper. So, this time, I use the sutta from Udana, called Nibbana Sutta: Total Unbinding. Hopefully, he does not reject this one.) In this attempt, I jump straight into the characterization of nibbana and see if we get what it points. To me, this is the game why we are here. It could be that my experience has `something' to do with that unbinding state. (Well…. Just be careful not to believe what I say but use your judgment!) Anyway, here we go. My comments are in the parenthesis ((…)) and toward the end: "… the Blessed One…exclaimed: There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object).This, just this, is the end of stress. " (Udana VIII.1) ((This dimension as referred to above indicates the state of total unbinding. The characterization is neither this nor that, etc. etc. Also, not coming, going, staying, passing away, etc. Some may call it extinction, but I would like to call this as, it-is-as-it-is state without judgment. What this points is that you need to have this state of release, which is unbinding, i.e., nibbana. So, don' t even think about cittas, rupas, etc. when we are to attain this dimension/state. In fact, it is not attaining, as attaining refers some effort. It has to be effortless effort. That is that dimension!)) "Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth isn't easily seen. Craving is pierced in one who knows; For one who sees, there is nothing. " (Udana VIII.2) ((First; "It's hard to see the unaffected, for the truth isn't easily seen." In other words, everything is changing. In such a situation, the truth is not easy to see – if we were to see it. It is like chasing to see something while the object and subject is moving. Next; "Craving is pierced in one who knows;" The act of knowing include the craving as in karma/sankhara. It is like, whatever in the past we have experienced has a way of putting the color to the scene we look at – so to speak. So, pierce through this with wisdom that arises at that dimension/state mentioned before. Then; " For one who sees, there is nothing." But the one who sees, pierced through defilements, there is nothing. It is as it is. Nothing hinders. How do we see it? It is the practice of mindfulness or vipassana – seeing the reality as it is.)) "There is, monks, an unborn -- unbecome -- uunmade -- unfabricated. If there were not that unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricatted, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn -- unbecome -- unmade -- unfabricated, emancipation from the born -- become -- made -- fabricated is discerned." (Udana VIII.3) ((Unborn, unbecome, unmade….are the basis to see the born, become, made as it were, ….without that state realized, you cannot truly see what is going on with the eye of dhamma. So, again, here is catch-22, a paradoxical position that requires for each of us to work on.)) "One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress." (Udana VIII.4) ((This phrase refers to that "nothing" in VIII.2. Everything is depending on everything else. Impermanence is to be seen as it is. The one who sees is the one who is independent as the Buddha calls it here. Mindfulness may be seen as a state of independence. Then, what is described above indicates the detachment, which needs strong determination, you call it Viriya here, to realize what is. At least that was the case for me. This may be compared to a mind similar to a mirror reflecting things on it without the mirror changing itself, or surface waves not affecting water in the deep ocean, or line drawn on water. Any of these analogies (and there are hundreds more) indicates the unaffected/independent state. In such a state, there is no desire, no coming or going, which means letting go totally to the point of finally sensing the vibration of the universe as pointed in my poem. How? Let go, let go, let go – totally, totally, totally. The practice of vipassana helped me to have this discipline – with the practice of Viriya. In practicing vipassana meditation, you sit a long time. Then, some kind of desire pops up. You cannot sit a long time unless you find a way to deal with it. This may be not so easy. But can be done with Viriya. There is more to it. But in essence, if you can totally let go of your emotion and pretty much everything else of being a human (so this is similar to dying, thus extinction!), you may have arrived there! Then, there is no coming, going, passing away, arising.. no here or there kind of consciousness, etc. any more…, and then there is nobody to suffer– annata. "This, just this, is the end of stress." Bingo!)) Just a few more cautionary remarks: The most important: If you seek for it, you will not find it. This is the golden rule. So, we need to seek without seeking. Have you try that? If you have not, 1) you need to become familiar with paradox if you were to learn this stuff, and 2) practice it! Actually it may be said as `unlearning' as if to don off unneeded and rediscover what you originally had – the unborn, unbecome, etc. (which is never lost from the beginningless beginning). Tied to this, the other point is that if you think you have it, you may not have it, or you have already lost it. This is because such thought can create another binding condition. So, you need to keep letting go. This is a slippery stuff especially at the beginning (which could be many, many years for some). Another point: do not believe what anyone says at the face value, especially from the one who thinks he is knowledgeable. (Remember the story of Ananda?) One has to be able to walk the talk. So, be critical. Again, do not believe what I say. By the way, one thing I wonder is that if there has been any discussion like this in this group. It appears that there are authorities of Theravada here, but sometimes, as you took an initiative, you need to stick your neck out and ask (- hopefully having done the homework). But, this is my humble opinion. Lastly, if not handled skillfully and used appropriately as a guide, the knowledge of various cittas, rupas, etc. may become a burden. This is my intuitive sense and the point I made about Ananda. Perhaps any `knowledgeable' person can comment on this for our benefit. * FYI, the above Nibbana Sutta is taken from: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-01.html Good day, good life, and good luck on your journey! Kio 23995 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 1:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 2 (Kom) Dear Larry, -----Original Message----- > Hi Kom, > > Would you care to explain "insight knowledge" and "profitable > consciousness" in the following sentence? > > Vism XIV, 2: What is understanding? Understanding (panna) is of many > sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it > all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, > besides lead to distraction; so we shall confine ourselves to the kind > intended here, which is understanding consisting in insight knowledge > associated with profitable consciousness. > > 1) What is meant by understanding (panna) in the first part of this > paragraph? Well, the book doesn't shed more light (for me) about what panna in the first part really mean. However, the definition of panna (later, in 7) pretty much excludes everything else.... > 2) It's pretty clear that insight knowledge is panna, but is it panna > confined to Satipatthana only? In 7), the insight knowledge is defined as: understanding has the characeristic of penetrating the individual essenses of states. kom 23996 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Hi Larry, As I write this, I’m concentrating on my elbows. I’ve just had my new computer chair with elbow rests delivered after resisting all these years. Now I have to get used to sticking out my elbows and having them supported - the opposite of what I was taught at the dining table as a child. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > In the US a significant number of children have a learning disability > called Attention Deficit Syndrome and it is starting to be diagnosed in > adults. Is that the case in Hong Kong? .... Did you read the article in ‘Time’ magazine (1st week of August, I think)- lots on meditation experiments too for Rob M and others with colourful pictures of brains and so on. Seemed well-written as well. Just the other day in H.K., there was an article about how we’re the most sleep-deprived nation and how this is affecting attention and concentration amongst teenagers and adults in the workplace. And yes, I’ve long had teenagers referred to me by schools with ADS and related disorders - ..... > I think ADS may not be a deficiency of attention, but rather a > deficiency of concentration, the ability to cognize an object > repeatedly. As a teacher of young children how do you prompt the arising > of concentration in your students and how do you teach them to prompt > the arising of concentration in themselves? ..... I think it often relates to lobha and interest. A kid like Starkid Philip (who has written to James a few times here), can’t sit still for two minutes in class and has been referred to various specialists over the years. However, he has no problem sitting still for hours whilst playing a computer game or watching soccer on TV. What I try to do-- is to help make the studies interesting and relevant to the kids’ interests. I find this is important whether they are 5 or 6 or whether they are college students. I was also one who used to find lessons and lectures very boring and have no problem identifying and sympathising with the students. I also find the students respond well to a reasonable amount of discipline and definitely to consistency and perceived fairness. I find it helps to make all activites very interactive, with lots of props, variety, prizes - however token. I also try to let the kids have a say in what they do. If they’re writing essays, I’ll try to find topics of interest, even if it’s ‘Why School’s So Boring’ or an interview with a Baseball Star, which will then get acted out. I try not to force anything (you can’t anyway) - so the letters on Buddhism on the internet last year were a novelty and gradually those that had taken no interest began to take an interest. Humour and being relaxed about unessential matters helps a lot too. If a student works better lying on the floor, that's fine by me. Most students need lots of carrots and positive encouragement and buiding of confidence. With the young kids, I try to encourage an interest in reading at a young age - I let them choose the books, often ask them to read out loud. Once they have the habit and interest, there’s no need to prompt any concentration. Try asking a kid to stop half-way through Harry Potter! Of course, there are always some kids that don’t like it or have very unusual reading interests and I encourage them to follow those instead. I had one student who would only read books on mice and rats for six months. I had identical twin boys study with me a couple of years ago - one liked reading war stories, the other liked reading romantic stories. Nothing surprising about these different ‘accumulations’ from a Buddhist point of view. ...... >I have a theory that one way > is with memory repetition practices: the repeated recitation of texts, > arithmetic and spelling formulas. And I was wondering if the monastic > use of repeated recitation of suttas was an aid to concentration. What > do you think? .... My immediate reaction is that it works well for some. With the varied inclinations and tendencies amongst students and adults, I'm reluctant to set any rule. We see on this list the varied approaches to understanding of Buddhism. This is actually the very standard Chinese teaching method - lots of rote memory drilling. The kids are often very well disciplined and do far better in memory games and so on. The international schools here -- especially the American schools -- are at the other extreme, but encourage lots of initiative and independent thinking. For us, some people really find it inspiring and helpful to recite chants and suttas in Pali and I think there are many benefits from the monks’ chanting. I also have a lot of lobha for hearing it, especially in Sri Lanka. ..... > Also, I was wondering if you have any ideas on why concentration IS > tranquility when it is linked with insight as in "tranquility and > insight". When I concentrate I am distinctly un-tranquil. ..... I think the main point as Nina, Jon and others have been stressing, is that there IS concentration and sanna at every moment and with every citta, regardless of the activity or how distracted one may appear. When there seems to be good concentration, such as in the recitation of a poem or sutta or watching a soccer game, is it any more tranquil or wholesome than when one is jumping up and down in one’s seat? As you rightly observe, most of the time when we concentrate, it is ‘distinctly un-tranquil’. The reason it is tranquil when there is any understanding is because the citta is wholesome and not accompanied by restlessness or any other unwholesome factors. This is also true at moments of dana, sila or samatha too. So if the aim is just to concentrate and concentrate and be less distracted, it may be better for memorizing the text, but it won’t lead to more insight. Only the development of sati and panna will do that, regardless of whether one is a jack-in-a-box or a student that sits still and listens intently. Does that answer you in a round-about sort of way? I'm actually semi-retired now and no longer have teachers working for me or intensive summer programs or a (very) heavy teaching schedule. I recommend it;-) Metta Sarah (slowly typing as I concentrate on elbows) =============================== 23997 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Icaro & James with metta Dear Sarah: Sarah:" In this case, I’ve > always found it rather > frustrating to read the PTS translation by Mrs R-D > of Dhammasangani and > you really encourage me to consider getting a copy > of the Pali to read > alongside." ------------------------------------------------------ Sarah, you will find a good copy of all Tipitaka at http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html. It´s the one I use: entirelly in pali and easy to read. I didn´t read the Dhammasangani´s PTS translation by Mrs Rhys-Davies...really, I would like to ! ----------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "Jim has also greatly encouraged me to do > this too with his > enthusiasm and familiarity of the same text. It may > not be this year or > next, but I find your inspiration in this regard > most uplifting." ---------------------------------------------------- I hope so! I´ve read some past entries of Jim at this group. He´s the true expert on this text. -------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "Also, I know that you’re leaving very soon for Egypt > and your new position > there. I’m sure we all wish you very well with this > and look forward to > hearing from you on dhamma in your daily life in > Egypt. Perhaps you could > send some letters or diary entries on this. Perhaps > if you stay long > enough, we’ll even have a chance to visit in > retirement as your trip to > Asia has been delayed;-)" --------------------------------------------------- My best wishes too, James! I hope he can get some good books to read...heheheh! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23998 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] concentration Dear Sarah: Sarah: "As I write this, I’m concentrating on my elbows. > I’ve just had my new > computer chair with elbow rests delivered after > resisting all these years." ------------------------------------------------------ Well...good luck! ------------------------------------------------------ Sarah: "Humour and being relaxed about > unessential matters helps > a lot too. If a student works better lying on the > floor, that's fine by > me." ------------------------------------------------------ My own case. I was teached to read and write with four years old, at home, by my old aunties. Later on, at school, my progress was sure and fast. And why ? Because I learned it with issues that catched my interest: Batman comics, fairy tales and so on. For other side, maths were hammered in my brains till I manage to develop a degree of discipline to deal with. My aunties made a good work teaching me - in my own opinion, of course! ----------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "With the young kids, I try to > encourage an interest in > reading at a young age - I let them choose the > books, often ask them to > read out loud. Once they have the habit and > interest, there’s no need to > prompt any concentration." ---------------------------------------------------- That it is! --------------------------------------------------- Sarah: " The reason it is tranquil when there > is any understanding is > because the citta is wholesome and not accompanied > by restlessness or any > other unwholesome factors. This is also true at > moments of dana, sila or > samatha too." -------------------------------------------------- This is the main point on concentration - either prompted ot unprompted, with nama and rupa or formless. You can take, for example, Samatha and Vipassana as the two arms of a balance: both are necessary to all mind culture. -------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: "So if the aim is just to concentrate and concentrate > and be less > distracted, it may be better for memorizing the > text, but it won’t lead to > more insight. Only the development of sati and panna > will do that, > regardless of whether one is a jack-in-a-box or a > student that sits still > and listens intently. ----------------------------------------------------- Exact. ---------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: "Does that answer you in a round-about sort of way? > I'm actually > semi-retired now and no longer have teachers working > for me or intensive > summer programs or a (very) heavy teaching schedule. > I recommend it;-2 ---------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, this post about the concentration´s subject was THE BEST ! ----------------------------------------------------- > Sarah (slowly typing as I concentrate on elbows) > =============================== ------------------------------------------------- Oh dear... please, take some rest! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 23999 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 8, 2003 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pleasant Abiding Hi Mike, I’m not sure if anyone replied to this - I have a few posts I followed up on but have been slow to respond to: --- "m. nease" wrote: > Friends, > > Sorry, I've lost the thread where we were discussing this. I'd > understood > someone to've said that 'a pleasant abiding here and now' referred to > jhaana > for an arahant only. This, I think, is where I'd got the idea that it > applied to the puthujjana, too: > > Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, > secluded > from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and > pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana.would > attain > and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It > might > occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, > that > is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. > > Majjhima Nikaaya 1. 8. > Sallekhasutta > > Is the bhikkhu referred to here an arahant? I wouldn't think it could > (mistakenly) occur to an arahant, 'I abide in purity'. ...... From what I can make out in the Pali, the term used here for pleasant abiding is ‘sukha vihara’, not to be confused with phala-samaapatti (fruition attainment) or nirodha-samaapatti (cessation attainment), both of which can only be experienced by ariyan disciples, with mastery in jhanas, and the latter only by anagamis and arahants with no more attachment to sense pleasures. On the paragraph you quote above, the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation gives a summary from the Comy: “MA explains that the Buddha, having answered the Elder’s question, now speaks of another type of overestimater - those who attain the eight meditative attainments and believe that they are practising true effacement (sallekha). The word ‘sallekha’, originally meaning austerity or ascetic practice, is used by the Buddha to signify the radical effacing or removal of defilements. Though the eight attainments are elsewhere placed securely within the Buddhist training (see MN 25.12-19, MN 26.34-41). It is here said that they should not be called effacement becuse the bhikkhu who attains them does not use them as a basis for insight - as described for example in MN52 and MN64 - but only as a means of enjoying bliss and peace.” ******** As usual, we have to read the suttas carefully. I think that sometimes ‘pleasant abiding’ can refer to phala samaapatti - really I need to re-read all the relevant sections. Here is one summary from Nina’s notes to clarify a little (see U.P., Fruition Attainment --phala-samaapatti -- for more) 18141, 18204, 18317, 18453, 18583 “The magga-citta of a particular stage of enlightenment arises only once in the cycle of birth and death. However, the phala-citta can arise again later on during that life, if enlightenment has been attained with lokuttara jhånacittas (Visuddhimagga, Ch III-XII). Someone who has developed jhåna and acquired ‘mastery’ in jhåna (Visuddhimagga IV, 131) and also develops insight can attain enlightenment with lokuttara jhånacitta, lokuttara citta accompanied by jhåna-factors of one of the stages of jhåna. The phala-citta which is accompanied by jhåna-factors can arise many times again during that life, experiencing nibbåna. This attainment is called fruition-attainment, phala-samåpatti. Fruition attainment, phala-samåpatti, has been explained in the ‘Visuddhimagga’, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot). The text (Vis. XXIII, 6,7) stating: ‘All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment’ can be misunderstood when we do not know the context.” ****** Hope this helps a little, Metta, Sarah =======