24400 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Sarah, Thank you for your reply and references. This is how I see it: Regarding addiction and intoxication to senses, you asked: How should the addiction be eradicated? Seclusion from sensual pleasures is necessary. Seclusion from sensual pleasure is not the same as wandering around blindfold, having ears blocked, sense of smell and taste removed, and hands tied and so on.* What needs to be cut off is lust (chandaraga), not sense faculty. Whether to live with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession or to live alone in solitude is a personal decision. Even if one lives with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession, one can still observe the five precepts, refraining from unwholesome actions, and meditate, cultivating one's mind. Comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor * That reminds me of the following incident: "Now at that time a certain bhikkhu, tormented by dissatisfaction, cut off his own penis. They reported this matter to the Blessed One (who said), 'When one thing should have been cut off, that foolish man cut off something else.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc2/ch10.html In the same vein, it would be foolish to blindfold oneself, having one's ears blocked, sense of smell and taste removed, and hands tied and so on thinking that this would eradicate addiction and intoxication to senses. 24401 From: elias broman Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:30am Subject: introduction hello i use @hotmail.com therefore i cannot reply to your messages, but i can write a new topic/post. so i thought it would be little information of myself, and maybe ad something about the dhamma at the end of the e-mail. My name is Elias, I'm 18 years old and live in Sweden. I have one year left in school, i wish to become a monk in Sri Lanka, so after school i will trie to leave sweden really soon, so i will become a monk at a low age and hopefuly stay as one the rest of the life. I really wished i were born as a monk, to late now though, my mother do not like the idea that i wish to become a monk, but she accept it and allow it, a great mother. As you may understand i practice the theravada teachings, i usually test the opions untill noone or someone is correct. Before i become a buddhist i were the opposite, i studied astral projection, that's soul-walking, or out-of-body-experiences. As a young kid i used to play a lot of fantasie games, i really were into fantasies, as we can relate to sankhara. karmatic formations. Later at young age i did think about death and life, 'what's the point of living if there's only a flow to follow?' Later i get into a really big depression, tried drugs, and got a psycologic. It were very intresting for me, how the mind had seemed to change the envorinment to something negative. that's for short. Also i'm absolutly sure i've meeted people for past lives, as probebly many of you have, we do it all day, don't we? But for some we can recognize it more easily, we become very bounded to them. As many say "the right partner", because it 'clicks', just a click and they fall in love, look, style, way of life, way of thinking, do not interfere their love. thiswould be because they recognize theirself from some past life, therefore as buddha said, 'recognizion leads to attachment'. As often, this things as style, way of living etc to have a bigger part later in the relationship, and it may live or not live anymore, the relationship. * as swedish, i speak and write swedish language, not english. so there is some typos. Many people are very intrested in ghosts, past lives, or the future, or universal questions. but i say to you all, try to care about the present, it will give much more happinies. Ofcurse you can sitt down, take a reflection break. that's what i call it, reflection break. But try to live in the present, because... thoughts are not true... Elias 24402 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] explaining paramatthas. Dear Howard. best regards from Lodewijk. Thank you for your kind and encouraging words about BDL. Nina. op 19-08-2003 20:38 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: I'm in the process of > reading your book Buddhism in Daily Life, 24403 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] laypeople as bhikkhus in a sense. Dear Icaro, In Thailand some ladies are dressed in white and observe eight precepts. I myself am not looking for societies, it seems so formal. Therefore, I have no info about them. I know a lady dressed in white I greatly respect. She helps very much at the Foundation in Bgk, has great knowledge of Pali, dedicates all her time to the Dhamma and has excellent understanding of the Dhamma. She is the aunt of one of our group here. I have often consulted her about difficult points of Dhamma via her nephew. It comes naturally to her to live without any fringes, wearing the most simple dress. For me it is a privilege to know her. She is at the podium with A. Sujin and others at the foundation to help addressing people, answering questions. I am always very happy to see her. A. Sujin said, you can observe as many precepts as you want without letting others know. Instead of the wellknown eight there are other eight concerning right speech. She said, these can be observed every day. When the co speaks about laypeople being bhikkhus, it is in the inward sense: developing the eightfold Path. op 19-08-2003 12:36 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > About laypersons: are there a "sangha" for them > (brotherhoods, orders, guilds, lodges, etc)? I am > thinking on an analogy with the Roman Catholic Church... > Is the Theravada buddhism alike ? I?ve saw some > photos of laypersons > wearing a white robe .. 24404 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Jim, Thank you very much. Subco is so difficult, but I cannot keep on asking. I shall try and then add ?? marks in the text when in doubt. Nina. op 19-08-2003 17:52 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > 'byava' represents the prefixes 'vi' and 'ava' before 'haara', hence > 'byavahaara' (or vyavahaara) and is equivalent to the more usual Pali > 'vohaara' (business, trade, etc.). 24405 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A series, no 14 ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:22:46 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A series, no 14 Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, A series, no 14 Relevant sutta passage: metta~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of loving kindness, yo byaapaado so pahiiyissati. that which is malevolence will be abandoned... karu.na~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of compassion, yaa vihesaa saa pahiiyissati. that which is harming will be abandoned... mudita~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of sympathetic joy, yaa arati saa pahiiyissati. that which is dislike will be abandoned... upekkha~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of equanimity, yo pa.tigho so pahiiyissati. that which is anger will be abandoned... asubha~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of foulness, yo raago so pahiiyissati. that which is attachment will be abandoned... aniccasa~n~na~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development that is the perception of impermanence, yo asmimaano so pahiiyissati. that which is the conceit of ³I am² will be abandoned. ***** Commentary: tattha bhaavayatoti upacaara.m vaa appana.m vaa paapentassa. As regards the words, from developing it in this way, this means: from causing to attain access concentration or attainment concentration. yo byaapaadoti yo satte kopo, so pahiiyissati. As to the words, what is malevolence, this means: what is anger towards a being will be abandoned. vihesaati paa.niaadiihi sattaana.m vihi.msana.m. As to the word, vexation, this is cruelty to living beings with one¹s hands and so on. aratiiti pantasenaasanesu ceva adhikusaladhammesu ca ukka.n.thitataa. As to the word aversion, this is dissatisfaction of secluded lodgings and superior qualities. pa.tighoti yattha katthaci sattesu sa"nkhaaresu ca pa.tiha~n~nanakileso. As to the word anger, this means, the defilements with regard to beings and events that cause disturbance everywhere. asubhanti uddhumaatakaadiisu upacaarappana.m. As to the word foul, this refers to access concentration and attainment concentration with a bloated corpse and so on. uddhumaatakaadiisu asubhabhaavanaa ca naamesaa vitthaarato visuddhimagge kathitaava. With regard to the bloated corpse, the meditation on the foul has been explained in detail in the Visuddhimagga. raagoti pa~ncakaamagu.nikaraago. As to the word attachment, this is attachment with regard to the five objects of sensual pleasure. aniccasa~n~nanti aniccaanupassanaaya sahajaatasa~n~na.m. As to the words, perception of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. vipassanaa eva vaa esaa asa~n~naapi sa~n~naasiisena sa~n~naati vuttaa. Just insight: although not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. asmimaanoti ruupaadiisu asmiiti maano. As to the words ³conceit of I am², this is conceit of ³I am² in materiality and so on. English: As regards the words, from developing it in this way, this means: from causing to attain access concentration or attainment concentration. As to the words, what is malevolence, this means: what is anger towards a being will be abandoned. As to the word, vexation, this is cruelty to living beings with one¹s hands and so on. As to the word aversion, this is dissatisfaction of secluded lodgings and superior qualities. As to the word anger, this means, the defilements with regard to beings and events that cause disturbance everywhere. As to the word foul, this refers to access concentration and attainment concentration with a bloated corpse and so on. With regard to the bloated corpse, the meditation on the foul has been explained in detail in the Visuddhimagga. As to the word attachment, this is attachment with regard to the five objects of sensual pleasure. As to the words, perception of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. Just insight: although not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. As to the words ³conceit of I am², this is conceit of ³I am² in materiality and so on. ***** 24406 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: subco Vis, no 4 Dear Jim and Larry, there is still a correction at the end of subco 3: > katha.m pana vi~n~naa.na.m lakkha.napa.tivedha.m paapetii ti? But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the penetration of the characteristics? > pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. ***** Subco no 4: 4. idaani yathaavuttamattha.m upamaaya pati.t.thaapetu.m Now, in order to establish by a simile the meaning as stated, ``yathaa hii''tiaadi vutta.m. it was said: ³just as etc.² tattha ajaatabuddhiiti asa~njaatabyavahaarabuddhi. There it was said, (a child) without discrimination, meaning, not knowing about commerce. upabhogaparibhoganti upabhogaparibhogaaraha.m, As to the words pleasure and enjoyment, this means, suitable for pleasure and enjoyment. upabhogaparibhogavatthuuna.m pa.tilaabhayogyanti attho. The meaning is the endeavour to acquire the objects of pleasure and enjoyment. chekoti mahaasaaro. The word genuine means: of great value. kuu.toti kahaapa.napatiruupako tambaka.msaadimayo. The word false means: what resembles a coin, made of copper, bronze, etc. addhasaaroti upa.d.dhagghanako. As to the word, half value, this means having half weight. iti-saddo aadiattho, tena paadasaara samasaaraparopaadasaaraadiina.m sa"ngaho. The word ³iti² (thus, or end quote; here coming after: this is half value, aya.m addhasaaroo²ti) means and so on. Therefore, the word value is a summary of the words, meaning, of the same value and other words about value. (?) te pakaareti indajaalaajaatipupphaadippakaare ceva chekaadippakaare ca. As to the words ³those kinds² (the moneychanger knows), the meaning is: those kinds that are produced by magic, a kind of flower, etc. and also those which are genuine, etc. English: Now, in order to establish by a simile the meaning as stated, it was said: ³just as etc.² There it was said, (a child) without discrimination, meaning, not knowing about commerce. As to the words pleasure and enjoyment, this means, suitable for pleasure and enjoyment. The meaning is the endeavour to acquire the objects of pleasure and enjoyment. The word genuine means: of great value. The word false means: what resembles a coin, made of copper, bronze, etc. As to the word, half value, this means having half weight. The word ³iti² (thus, or end quote; here coming after: this is half value, aya.m addhasaaroo²ti) means and so on. Therefore, the word value is a summary of the words, meaning, of the same value and other words about value. (?) As to the words ³those kinds² (the moneychanger knows), the meaning is: those kinds that are produced by magic, a kind of flower, etc. and also those which are genuine, etc. ****** Nina. 24407 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: meanings of dhamma, no 5. Nina I more concern are these indetermine citta play a role. It is weird that it is left not explain. kind rgds Ken O --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Kenneth Ong, > op 15-08-2003 18:23 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...:> > > Please explain why it is indetermine. > > > > abyaakataa, or avyaakataa. Avyaakata means not declared, > > not determined. They are not determined as kusala nor as akusala, > > they are indeterminate. > All dhammas which are neither kusala nor akusala have been > classified as > indeterminate. Citta and cetasika which are vipaka, those which are > kiriya, > rupa and nibbana. There is not much to explain, it is just named > like that. > Nina. 24408 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Killing responsibility Dear Eagle, There were countless past lives during which all of us have killed, and those kammas of long, long ago can bring results now or in the far future. If we start to worry there is no end and we have even more akusala cittas. Past is past, it has happened already and no use to worry. Nobody, except Buddhas, can know what kamma in the past will bring which result at what time. There were conditions for those kammas to happen. Better pay attention to this moment: not wasting opportunities for kusala and understanding. Nina. op 19-08-2003 12:37 schreef eaglenarius op eaglenarius@c...: > Do we have to bear the > consequences of bad act that we had done when we were a small child which > did not understand this karmic law ? 24409 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi, Victor (and Sarah) - You ask for comments. My comment is that I completely agree with the formulation you give here! With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/20/03 12:32:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: Hi Sarah, Thank you for your reply and references. This is how I see it: Regarding addiction and intoxication to senses, you asked: How should the addiction be eradicated? Seclusion from sensual pleasures is necessary. Seclusion from sensual pleasure is not the same as wandering around blindfold, having ears blocked, sense of smell and taste removed, and hands tied and so on.* What needs to be cut off is lust (chandaraga), not sense faculty. Whether to live with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession or to live alone in solitude is a personal decision. Even if one lives with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with children and possession, one can still observe the five precepts, refraining from unwholesome actions, and meditate, cultivating one's mind. Comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor * That reminds me of the following incident: "Now at that time a certain bhikkhu, tormented by dissatisfaction, cut off his own penis. They reported this matter to the Blessed One (who said), 'When one thing should have been cut off, that foolish man cut off something else.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc2/ch10.html In the same vein, it would be foolish to blindfold oneself, having one's ears blocked, sense of smell and taste removed, and hands tied and so on thinking that this would eradicate addiction and intoxication to senses. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24410 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] laypeople as bhikkhus in a sense. Dear Nina: Nina: " In Thailand some ladies are dressed in white and > observe eight precepts. > I myself am not looking for societies, it seems so > formal. Therefore, I have > no info about them. > I know a lady dressed in white I greatly respect. > She helps very much at the > Foundation in Bgk, has great knowledge of Pali, > dedicates all her time to > the Dhamma and has excellent understanding of the > Dhamma. She is the aunt of > one of our group here. I have often consulted her > about difficult points of > Dhamma via her nephew. It comes naturally to her to > live without any > fringes, wearing the most simple dress. For me it is > a privilege to know > her. She is at the podium with A. Sujin and others > at the foundation to help > addressing people, answering questions." ---------------------------------------------------- Quelle gaucherie de ma part! Nina, I´ve raise such "off-topic" question because, reading many of the high quality posts of the dsg, one could really nurture the idea of take the noble path with serious intentions. A lad that posted here recently - Elias Broman, of Sweden - had stated the sincere impulse to go to Thailand and take the five vows and the yellow robe. Very good indeed! At my side, I will never have the calling to be a Bhikkhu - this is the truth. But since all of us are laypersons exchanging freely opinions and sharing teachings about Pali and Dhamma, more opportunities to help the Sangha could not only be advisable, but even desirable as a accumulation of good Kamma and Kusala feelings and thoughts! But... really forgive me, Nina. This kind of personal question is really out of order, I know - but you are the best person to clarify these matters, due your life and expertise at Orient issues. (I always remember the first chapter of the Lotus Sutra at these hours... a questioning crashing bore is that I am!!!) So, very thanks to you, Nina, for reply my extemporaneous and out of order question - very, very sad, tad! - I swear to you to keep my inquirings to you always on topic!!! Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24411 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 0:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Kom, ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 10:37 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... > I think a life of a bikkhus helps in achieving purity in multiple different > ways, but not being a bikkhus (or those who live isolated) doesn't prevent > one from the realization of the noble truths. It occurs to me that I've come to the conclusion that 'not being a bhikkhu' does prevent one from the realization of the noble truths by way of jhaana. I'm sure opinions will differ on this(!). Do you know of any authoritative text for or against this idea? Do you think it's supported by the texts in general? Thanks, mike 24412 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Mike, > -----Original Message----- > From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:19 PM > > It occurs to me that I've come to the conclusion that 'not being > a bhikkhu' > does prevent one from the realization of the noble truths by way > of jhaana. > I'm sure opinions will differ on this(!). Do you know of any > authoritative > text for or against this idea? Do you think it's supported by > the texts in > general? > 1) I am pretty sure that jhana attainment is possible as a householder. There's a story of an upasika who became an anagami, and was able to read minds of the bikkhus who came to her house. She gave the bikkhus whatever they desired, but on knowing that the upasika can read their mind, one of the bikkhus developed the urgency (being ashamed of the defilements as a bikhus) and attained arahatship. 2) Unfortunately, I don't know the additional details and background of the above story how she came to reach the jhana attainment. I think some jhana / supernormal power came along with realizing the noble truths due to the accumulation in the *PREVIOUS* lives. For example, it isn't obvious (maybe others will correct) that V. Sariputta and Mahamogallana had achieved the jhana attainment when they became sota-panna, but both apparently, based on their jhanic states, realized the fruits of arahataship. V. Anada attained supernormal power only after he had reached arahatship. 3) We should read the 9 obstacles of developing Jhana in Vism and see if a life of a householder has these obstacles or not. If it does, how do we expect to achieve jhana attainment? Reaching upacara samathi requires quite a bit of efforts to retain the object, even when not sitting. What happens when one runs into objects of sense-desire that disturbs that object? 4) I speculate that reaching jhana (not thru realization of the noble path) is virtually impossible for a *married* house-holder, but possible, albeit difficult, for householders who are not. kom 24413 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the Sasana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > Thank you so much for this well worked out and helpful reply. (I > include only enough of your writing below to identify the post to other readers.) > ____________________ > In a message dated 8/20/03 4:13:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > On the other > > hand if we accept the theory and endeavour to practice correctly, > > but then have disdain for the efforts of the sangha over centuries > > who preserved it then that seems ungrateful. ____________ Thnaks very much, Howard. I expand on one sentence I wrote:"if we are overly concerned with the > > preservation of the theory â€" without a proper insight into the > > application then that concern is likely to be weighed down by > > upadana (attachment) and not be beneficial to anyone." The theme of detachment is basic to the teachings. So even if we think it is important to preserve the teachings any efforts should be rooted in alobha (detachment). Anyway fortunately some zennish Buddhists (if that is the right word) (not you Howard) never miss a chance to prod more 'fundamental' Buddhists if they sense that attachment is predominant. It can be a nice warning of attachment if there is reaction. So how to put in great energy to preserving/praticing the teachings but without attachment? It is the profound path. RobertK 24414 From: Eddie Lou Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding Dear Ícaro, Thanks for the advise. My first response seemed not posted for some reason beyond my comprehension. Here is 2nd. I myself have done some analytical study (not religiously & definitely not fanatically but realistically & rationally) of my great Buddhism especially Buddha's teachings. I did it more like a scientific approach. Science even at this stage is but a micro-set (as compared to sub-set or super-set) of Buddha's wisdom & teachings. Metta, Eddie Lou --- icaro franca wrote: > Dear Eddie: > > Dear Eddie, I can postulate a personal opinion at > these question about Dhamma. > First, you must get a clear definition about > "Dhamma" (law, concept, rule or even religion!) > Then, take a good plunge at some buddhistic > books: > my favourite ones are the Lotus Sutra and the > Dhammasangani. These two famous works explain the > main > concept of Dhamma at a complete way! Don´t be afraid > to stuff your precious head with all the buddhistic > "technical" terms: Cittas, Rupas, cetasikas and so > on: > they all fall in their fitted sockets without fail > or > mistake... the Abhidhamma really works!!! > Then - at last! - take a seat at this group! > Nina´s > exegesis on Dharma and Pali, added by the excelent > commentaries of all members will really make growth > your understanding on these matters. > A burden ? Not at all !!!! > > Metta, Ícaro > 24415 From: Eddie Lou Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- icaro franca wrote: > Dear Eddie: > > Eddie: " Now - why such game as - Dhamma ? I still > have not > > got the answer. > > I also agree with Kio that we can get too > involved > > with certain issues as quoted from hers: > > >Lastly, if not handled skillfully and used > > >appropriately as a guide, > > >the knowledge of various cittas, rupas, etc. may > > become >a burden." > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Eddie, I can postulate a personal opinion at > these question about Dhamma. > First, you must get a clear definition about > "Dhamma" (law, concept, rule or even religion!) > Then, take a good plunge at some buddhistic > books: > my favourite ones are the Lotus Sutra and the > Dhammasangani. These two famous works explain the > main > concept of Dhamma at a complete way! Don´t be afraid > to stuff your precious head with all the buddhistic > "technical" terms: Cittas, Rupas, cetasikas and so > on: > they all fall in their fitted sockets without fail > or > mistake... the Abhidhamma really works!!! > Then - at last! - take a seat at this group! > Nina´s > exegesis on Dharma and Pali, added by the excelent > commentaries of all members will really make growth > your understanding on these matters. > A burden ? Not at all !!!! > > Metta, Ícaro Thanks Ícaro, I understand more or less all these things including the Abidhamma with little Manna (ego, I believe), what really baffles me is why all these entities like us & other beings, why beginningless and endless samsara (birth cycles). All these 'Bigger' Why things. These are what I call "game" or Dhamma. I see all these (nothing 'magical' or superstitious) to relate to Science (which is barely scratching the surface & should coincide with Buddha's teachings) especially physics & math. I believe we still may have to discover a lot of physical properties/phenomena like Nanotechnology, we did with Einstein's Relativity unusual, 'magical'-so unbelievable phenomena involving speed approaching speed of light. With Nanotechnology, we seem set to be dealing with properties related to Quantum mechanics on the scale of near atomic level. What about Karmic energy as similar to physical energy? This will reveal more of the Buddha's teachings, if it is the real truth, which I believe it is. BTW, I was born a Buddhist in name from Myanmar (Burma). I reached out to Buddhism (not religiously, definitely NOT fanatically but realistically) only when my mother suffered a lot from dialysis (bad) effects because out of karuna & metta, I sympathized and suffered pretty heavily. That opened my eyes to start search for real truth. At that time, I started looking in all different things - religions - all major ones and Sciences, just about anything I can think of but finally I found something that offered the closest model of truth - Buddhism. Now, I can not be considered just a Buddhist in name anymore. Metta, Eddie Lou 24416 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Vism. XIV, 7 Hi all, I just realized I have been sending emails to myself but not to you. So here is one and a couple more will follow. Larry 24417 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:48pm Subject: Re: Vism XIV, 7 Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states." Hi all, Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this as understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states? The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't understand concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. Larry 24418 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: Vism XIV, 7 (3) Vism. XIV, 7: What are its characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause? Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essenses of states. (3) Its function is to abolish the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essenses of states. It is manifested as non-delusion. Because of the words 'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v.3) its proximate cause is concentration. Larry: Would someone like to say a few words on what is the difference between the consciousness of hardness and the understanding of hardness? Azita? Larry 24419 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:00pm Subject: Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) ~Nanamoli, Vism VIII, n. 68: The individual essence of any formed dhamma is manifested in the three instants of its existence (atthita, vijjamanata), namely, arising, presence (=ageing) and dissolution. It comes from nowhere and goes nowhere (Ch.XV,15) and is borne by the mind. Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned. XXIII n.18: The subtleties of the word "nipphanna" are best cleared up by quoting a paragraph from the Sammohavinodani (VbhA.29): 'The five aggregates are positively-produced (parinipphanna) always, not unpositively-produced (apari-nipphanna); they are always formed, not unformed. Besides, they are produced (nipphanna) as well. For among the dhammas that are individual essences (sabhaava-dhamma) it is only nibbana that is unpositively-produced and unproduced (anipphanna)'. The Mula Tika comments on this: 'What is the difference between the positively-produced and the produced? A dhamma that is an individual essence with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by the three characteristics, is "positively produced". But besides this, what is "produced" [but not positively produced] is a dhamma with no individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) when it is produced by the taking of a name or by attaining [the attainment of cessation]'. (VbhAA.23) Cf. also Ch. XIV, 72 &77. Hi all, some questions: 1. Re: "Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned." Larry: Why only "some concepts"? 2. Re: "But besides this, what is "produced" [but not positively produced] is a dhamma with no individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) when it is produced by the taking of a name or by attaining [the attainment of cessation]'." Larry: Is nibbana different from the attainment of cessation? Nibbana is unproduced. 3. If carriages and persons are perceived to be impermanent then why are they not sabhaava-dhammas? Larry ps: Nibbana, Vism. XVI, 66: It has peace as its characteristic. Its function is not to die; or its function is to comfort. It is manifested as the sign-less; or it is manifested as non-diversification [nippapan~nca]. 24420 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: Vism XIV, 7 (2) Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states." Hi Nina and Jim, Why is there no mention of the general characteristics here? (impermanence, suffering, not self) Larry 24421 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] laypeople as bhikkhus in a sense. Correction! " A lad that posted here > recently - Elias Broman, of Sweden - had stated the > sincere impulse to go to Thailand and take the five > vows and the yellow robe. Very good indeed!" ---------------------------------------------------- That´s not Thailand. It´s Sri Lanka! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24422 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Nina, > Dear Jim, > Thank you very much. > Subco is so difficult, but I cannot keep on asking. I shall try and then add > ?? marks in the text when in doubt. > Nina. I saw your difficulty with the subco. to Vism XIV.4. The passage beginning with 'iti-saddo aadiattho, tena ...' means 'the word 'iti' has the meaning of 'aadi' (etc.), with this (word 'iti'), there is the inclusion of 'quarter value, equal value, more than a quarter value, etc.'. I'm sorry for not being of much help in your Pali translation work (including MN 62) with corrections and comments. This is largely due to a lack of time and my struggle to keep the internet from overwhelming me. With the Vism subco. I don't believe you're under any obligation or pressure to translate and post these passages from this difficult work, much of which is over my head too. It's entirely up to you, of course. Summer is fast coming to an end, and it will soon be time to start splitting firewood again in preparation for a long Canadian winter. It seems that the last several autumns have been a time for me to take a vacation from the discussion lists to spend time by myself, and this year will be no different. For the first ten years, I lived here from early spring to late fall with no electricity or telephone and managed quite well without them, but for the last five years that all changed with my getting hooked up to these services. Today, I thought it would be good to experience life for 3 months withou any telephone, internet, or radio contact with the outside world. So I may be disconnecting my phone and internet services for three months starting sometime next month and I'm also planning to go away soon for a week. If I do disconnect, I hope to be back online again by year's end. Best wishes, Jim 24423 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kasina Meditation Question: To Jim Anderson Dear Suan, Thank-you for your reply and for the quoted Vism passage. It all sounds reasonable to me. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, and all > > How are you? > > You wondered: > > "I was wondering if is absolutely necessary to start with an actual > physical colour kasi.na in order to acquire the learning sign > (uggahanimitta)." > > > We read the following at Section 57, Chapter 4 in Visuddhimaggo: > > "Athaanena sace taru.no samaadhi kenacideva asappaayakaara.nena > nassati, upaahanaa aaruyha kattarada.n.dam gahetvaa > tam .thaanam gantvaa nimittam aadaaya aagantvaa sukhanisinnena > bhaavetabbam." > > "Afterwards, in case the immature concentration slipped due to a > certain untoward cause, the ascetic, putting on the sandals, taking > the staff, going to that place of kasi.na source object, repossessing > the Learnt Image, and returning to the secluded place, should develop > concentration by sitting comfortably." 24424 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Vism. XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/20/03 7:48:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi all, I just realized I have been sending emails to myself but not to you. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Have you found the level of conversation to be somewhat higher than ususal?? --------------------------------------------------- So here is one and a couple more will follow. Larry =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24425 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/20/03 7:50:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states." Hi all, Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this as understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states? The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't understand concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. Larry ============================== Here's a reply from this non-abhidhammika: It depends on what one means by 'concept'. To me, one sense of 'concept' is that of a *thought* which sums up a mentally accumulated collection of paramattha dhammas, and that thought, *as* a thought, is, as far as I'm concerned, a direct element of experience, a paramattha dhamma, and it can be known by wisdom as impermanent, insubstantial, impersonal, and unsatisfying. Moreover, it can be known with wisdom that it is empty in the sense of not pointing to the apparent "thing" that it seems to point to, there being no such thing, that alleged thing being "concept-only". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24426 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Kom, I think I didn't ask my question very well. Do you think it's possible to attain not jhaana (obviously possible I think), but enlightenment by way of jhaana, as a layperson? Do you think this is supported by the tipitaka? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 1:50 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... > Hi Mike, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:19 PM > > > > It occurs to me that I've come to the conclusion that 'not being > > a bhikkhu' > > does prevent one from the realization of the noble truths by way > > of jhaana. > > I'm sure opinions will differ on this(!). Do you know of any > > authoritative > > text for or against this idea? Do you think it's supported by > > the texts in > > general? > > > > 1) I am pretty sure that jhana attainment is possible as a householder. > There's a story of an upasika who became an anagami, and was able to read > minds of the bikkhus who came to her house. She gave the bikkhus whatever > they desired, but on knowing that the upasika can read their mind, one of > the bikkhus developed the urgency (being ashamed of the defilements as a > bikhus) and attained arahatship. > > 2) Unfortunately, I don't know the additional details and background of the > above story how she came to reach the jhana attainment. I think some jhana > / supernormal power came along with realizing the noble truths due to the > accumulation in the *PREVIOUS* lives. For example, it isn't obvious (maybe > others will correct) that V. Sariputta and Mahamogallana had achieved the > jhana attainment when they became sota-panna, but both apparently, based on > their jhanic states, realized the fruits of arahataship. V. Anada attained > supernormal power only after he had reached arahatship. > > 3) We should read the 9 obstacles of developing Jhana in Vism and see if a > life of a householder has these obstacles or not. If it does, how do we > expect to achieve jhana attainment? Reaching upacara samathi requires quite > a bit of efforts to retain the object, even when not sitting. What happens > when one runs into objects of sense-desire that disturbs that object? > > 4) I speculate that reaching jhana (not thru realization of the noble path) > is virtually impossible for a *married* house-holder, but possible, albeit > difficult, for householders who are not. > > kom 24427 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, Given Vism. XIV, 1-7, I think we can say a concept is a dhamma that doesn't arise or cease. [We have to take nibbana as a special case] The intention here seems to be a convention. Some concepts have real referents, some don't. It isn't clear to me why the distinction between concept and reality is necessary but I think Vism. XIV, 7 and its commentary establishes that distinction. It also isn't clear what knowledge distinguishes between concept and reality. We might ask what is it about a bicycle that is a reality and what is it about a bicycle that is a concept with a real referent and what is it about a bicycle that is a concept with a nonexistent referent. The answers seem to be what is impermanent, what points to something that is impermanent, and what assumes permanence. Also, a bicycle isn't necessarily just a group of rupas. It could also be associated feelings, identities (sanna), and valuations (like, dislike, bewilderment). It would seem that sorting out concept and reality is a key issue, but whose job is it? Larry --------------------- Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states." Hi all, Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this as understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states? The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't understand concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. Larry ============================== Howard: Here's a reply from this non-abhidhammika: It depends on what one means by 'concept'. To me, one sense of 'concept' is that of a *thought* which sums up a mentally accumulated collection of paramattha dhammas, and that thought, *as* a thought, is, as far as I'm concerned, a direct element of experience, a paramattha dhamma, and it can be known by wisdom as impermanent, insubstantial, impersonal, and unsatisfying. Moreover, it can be known with wisdom that it is empty in the sense of not pointing to the apparent "thing" that it seems to point to, there being no such thing, that alleged thing being "concept-only". With metta, Howard 24428 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Vism. XIV, 7 Larry: Hi all, I just realized I have been sending emails to myself but not to you. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Have you found the level of conversation to be somewhat higher than ususal?? Larry: Yes! Plus these discussions have been remarkably clear and calm. Larry 24429 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin, No, here you are wrong. Everybody writes in his own way, even if the contents are similar, therefore, interesting to read. We like to hear you too!! Do not compare yourself with others :-) :-) How is our good friend Dharam? Kindest regards also from Lodewijk. Nina. op 20-08-2003 11:00 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukin@k...: > I discover later that many of the > reponses match mine. The latest being Kom's response in the Rt. > Livelihood thread. But as I said, he understands things much more > deeply and is more experienced with the particular outlook. Even some > of your own responses, have almost exactly matched mine ;-). 24430 From: Andrew Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: introduction Hej Elias! Valkommen till DSG. I am an Australian of Swedish ancestry and speak a bit of your language. We have all sorts of people on this list, as you can see. It's a while since I was 18 years old, but you seem to have had a very eventful life so far. Good and bad things have happened to you but all of them can be useful in developing panna (visdom). I am pleased that you are so keen to study the Buddhadhamma and I wish you well. Have you thought about whether language will be a difficulty for you? Will you have to study the Dhamma through English? Or are there good translations into Swedish? Maybe you want to study Pali (a good idea for a monk!)? I have found that the Buddha's teachings are very deep and I have thought about them for many years. My understanding changes. So don't be in a hurry, my friend. Ha det bra! Andrew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "elias broman" wrote: > hello > > > > My name is Elias, I'm 18 years old and live in Sweden. I have one year left > in school, > i wish to become a monk in Sri Lanka, so after school i will trie to leave > sweden really soon, > so i will become a monk at a low age and hopefuly stay as one the rest of > the life. > > I really wished i were born as a monk, to late now though, > my mother do not like the idea that i wish to become a monk, but she accept > it and allow it, > a great mother. > > As you may understand i practice the theravada teachings, > i usually test the opions untill noone or someone is correct. > > Before i become a buddhist i were the opposite, > i studied astral projection, that's soul-walking, or > out-of-body-experiences. > > As a young kid i used to play a lot of fantasie games, i really were into > fantasies, > as we can relate to sankhara. karmatic formations. > > Later at young age i did think about death and life, > 'what's the point of living if there's only a flow to follow?' > > Later i get into a really big depression, tried drugs, and got a psycologic. > It were very intresting for me, how the mind had seemed to change the > envorinment > to something negative. > > that's for short. Also i'm absolutly sure i've meeted people for past lives, > as probebly many of you have, we do it all day, don't we? > But for some we can recognize it more easily, we become very bounded to > them. > > As many say "the right partner", because it 'clicks', just a click and they > fall in love, > look, style, way of life, way of thinking, do not interfere their love. > thiswould be because they recognize theirself from some past life, therefore > as buddha said, > 'recognizion leads to attachment'. > > As often, this things as style, way of living etc to have a bigger part > later in the relationship, > and it may live or not live anymore, the relationship. > > * as swedish, i speak and write swedish language, not english. so there is > some typos. > > Many people are very intrested in ghosts, past lives, or the future, or > universal questions. > but i say to you all, try to care about the present, it will give much more > happinies. > Ofcurse you can sitt down, take a reflection break. > > that's what i call it, reflection break. > > But try to live in the present, because... > > thoughts are not true... > > Elias > 24431 From: eaglenarius Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Dear Robert and All friends, What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ? -----Original Message----- From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:56 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Dear Eagle, Things aren't so bad. We have been born countless times in the lower realms but we have also accumulated much merit so that now we can hear Dhamma and be human. The bodhisatta has to go through much difficulties as these are the grindstone against which the parami are sharpened. As disciples we have it easier. Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 22: Last paragraph: Bhikkhus the Dhamma well proclaimed by me is clear open, evident, and free of patchwork. In the Dhamma proclaimed by me thus .. bhikkhus who have sufficient faith in me, sufficient love for me, are all headed for heaven". And for those born in heaven who have Dhamma insight: Anguttara Nikaya CHAPTER XX Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER(1) Blessings ""BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight.""" ---------------------- EAGLE : How do we have to do now, to make sure that in the next rebirth we won't forget dhamma at least in our next body's unconscious mind. What is the meaning of 'Norm' in the above passage ? is that a nation Norm or a local norm or a Buddhist norm ? Thanks for your effort to erase my doubt. Thanks, Eagle 24432 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/21/03 12:18:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi Howard, Given Vism. XIV, 1-7, I think we can say a concept is a dhamma that doesn't arise or cease. [We have to take nibbana as a special case] -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As far as I'm concerned, all conditioned dhammas arise and cease, and IF Abhidhamma or Buddhaghosa say otherwise, then they are in error. I have always considered concepts to be *thoughts*, and thoughts, like all other conditioned dhammas arise and cease. (Also, with regard to *referents* of concepts, trees for example, ultimately they don't arise and cease, because ultimately there are no such "things" as trees, but conventionally and derivatively, they most certainly do arise and cease. More about this later.) ------------------------------------------------------- The intention here seems to be a convention. Some concepts have real referents, some don't. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Concepts may have paramattha dhammas as referents. Those are the only concepts that have real referents in the fullest sense. But even those concepts apprehend their objects indirectly, as concepts *of* one thing or another. Included here are concepts of hardness, concepts of sounds, etc. But the hardness as it is felt and the sounds as they are heard are *directly* experienced, and therein lies the distinction between conceptual and direct knowing, even of actualities. Now other concepts, still well grounded ones, are mind-compounded thoughts which do not reference actualities (a tree, for example, is not an actuality), but do sum up collections of actualities that are truly interrelated (the tree concept and tree percepts do not reference any things, but they do correspond to extraordinarily complex structurally and dynamically interrelated dynamic conglomerates of paramattha dhammas). This class of concepts serves to enable the grasping by worldlings of the relational nature of the world, wheras pa~n~na is the primary means that arahants employ for such understanding. The remaining class of concepts are those that are not well grounded and are created from whole cloth. ---------------------------------------------------------------- It isn't clear to me why the distinction between concept and reality is necessary but I think Vism. XIV, 7 and its commentary establishes that distinction. It also isn't clear what knowledge distinguishes between concept and reality. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I hope that what I wrote above contributes some helpful ideas in this regard. ----------------------------------------------------------------- We might ask what is it about a bicycle that is a reality and what is it about a bicycle that is a concept with a real referent and what is it about a bicycle that is a concept with a nonexistent referent. The answers seem to be what is impermanent, what points to something that is impermanent, and what assumes permanence. Also, a bicycle isn't necessarily just a group of rupas. It could also be associated feelings, identities (sanna), and valuations (like, dislike, bewilderment). It would seem that sorting out concept and reality is a key issue, but whose job is it? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Why worry about it much? Even the only-conventionally-existent referents of (well grounded) concepts such as trees, people, houses, cars, and bicycles are *conventionally* and *derivatively* anicca, dukkha, and anatta. They arise and cease conventionally and derivatively in the sense that the underlying interrelated actualities do so, and seeing the tilakkhana operative at the level of conventional objects supports our learning to relax our hold on these conventional entities. Further, seeing their *ultimate* emptiness due to their being non-existent referents of mental constructs superimposed on complexes of interrelated dhammas is a deeper and more critical process for relaxing our hold on them. When we can see through concepts to the underlying actualities and *then* directly see, by wisdom, the tilakkhana and dependent origination operative at that ultimate, microscopic, level of reality, then we are really on our way. But we don't have to be perfect about this. It's all good. The practice proceeds at multiple levels. We do the best we can. This is my take on the matter. ---------------------------------------------------------- Larry ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24433 From: Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Re: Vism. XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/21/03 12:21:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Larry: Hi all, I just realized I have been sending emails to myself but not to you. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Have you found the level of conversation to be somewhat higher than ususal?? Larry: Yes! Plus these discussions have been remarkably clear and calm. Larry =============================== ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24434 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:40pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Mike, > -----Original Message----- > From: m. nease [mailto:mlnease@z...] > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 7:27 PM > > > Hi Kom, > > I think I didn't ask my question very well. Do you think it's possible to > attain not jhaana (obviously possible I think), but enlightenment > by way of > jhaana, as a layperson? Do you think this is supported by the tipitaka? > > mike That I have not heard either way, although I don't see why not, with enough accumulation. I will write to A. Supee to ask him if he has a story... kom 24435 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Warning: a bit technical and Pali filled in spite of attempted translations. Hi Mike & All, This is an interesting thread. Please take all my comments here as somewhat speculative and welcoming of any corrections. Also I’m trying to follow your example here with Pali spelling, but I’m sure there are lots of errors. --- "m. nease" wrote: S:> > sukkha-vedanaa, doesn't mean it has to be taken for pleasurable or > 'subha' > > (with or without wrong view) by following akusala javana cittas in the > > sense door and mind door processes. > M:> Do you mean that the (immediately) following javanas won't necessarily > be > attended by sukha-vedanaa? .... Strictly speaking I think sukha-vedanaa only accompanies bodily experience (kaaya vi~n~naa.na). The following javana cittas may be kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome) and accompanied by somanassa or domanassa (happy or unhappy feeling). ..... M:>The (tentative) conclusion I came to this > morning was this: I think Khun Sujin was not using 'object of pleasure'in the sense of aaramma.na, but in the sense of the concept that's formed by > sa~n~naa after many, many processess (still an infinitessimally brief time) through however many doors. That is, the concept of visible form that I take as an 'object of pleasure'--a pretty girl, say--is not > ruupaaramma.na.m--many countless of which have already arisen and fallen away before the 'girl' appears. ..... S: I think it refers to both - the aaramma.na(object) and the later concept. Sa~n~na and citta vipallaasa(perversions of perception and consciousness) arise with all akusala cittas, as I understand. Whenever the sa~n~na and citta are not wholesome, they are ‘perverted’. This is why only the anaagaamii (3rd stage of enlightenment) with no more attachment to sense objects has no more citta and sa~n~na vipallaasa with regard to taking the asubha (foul) for subha (beautiful) and why the eradication of the perversions depend on the very refined insight into the characteristics of realities arising in the sense doors. Without the understanding of impermanence and anatta, there is bound to be the taking of ruupa (physical phenomena) as subha. This is what I understand when you write:“Khun Sujin says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha because it is too short to be the object of pleasure.” ..... M: > So insight is not into 'the girl' but into the actual ruupaaramma.na.m. which is asubha because it is simply not pleasant (rather than 'unpleasant', 'ugly' or 'foul' in this context, I think)--it not only is too brief, it also doesn't make up enough of the visual field even to make up a significant part of the 'pretty girl' that thinking later takes as the 'object of pleasure'. It's just one (or one process of) citta and whatever vedanaa arose with it isn't necessarily > relevant to the feeling that arises later with regard to the 'girl'. > > Is this more or less what you were saying above? .... S: Insight is into the ruupaaramma.na.m as you explain above. However, I think the taking as ‘object of pleasure’ can (and usually does) arise immediately in the same sense door process or immediately following mind door process, even though there is no idea of ‘girl’ for a good many processes as we know. Attachment can arise immediately on account of the visible object when there is no pa~n~na which understands its nature at the time. Hence, the references to ‘guarding the sense doors’ and the power of developed insight to really know the true characteristics as they appear. As you’ll recall, we had some discussions on the Muulapariyaaya Sutta ages ago and on the meaning of ma~n~nanaa (conceiving). From the useful translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi of this sutta with its commentary and subcommentaries, published by BPS under the title 'The Discourse on the Root of Existence': On p.38 we read about the bases (referring to the khandhas) not fully understood by the worldling (puthujjanao apari~n~naatavatthuko) “and the conceiving (ma~n~nanaa) that is the root of all the things intended here is itself rooted in lack of full understanding (apari~n`naamuulikaa)...” Later (p.39) it says “conceiving also occurs in regard to the characteristic earth which appears through the body-door and elsewhere.” As I understand, ma~n~nanaa thus arises even in the sense door process and cannot be equated with conceiving or conceptualising. On p.40, we read “having perceived earth thus with a perverted perception, the worldling afterwards conceives it, i.e. construes or discriminates it, through the strengthened proliferating tendencies of craving, conceit, and views, which are called “conceivings” (aparabhaage thaamappattehi ta.nhaamaanadi.t.thi papa~ncehi idha ma~n~nanaanaamena vuttehi ma~n~nati kappeti vikappeti). This accords with the statement: “Concepts due to proliferation are grounded upon perception” (sa~n~naanidaanaa hi papa~ncasa.nkhaa)...... “He apprehends it... contrary (to reality)”: like the conceiving of views, the conceivings of craving and conceit also apprehend things contrary to reality - craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful....” S: In other words, at each moment of attachment to sense objects (including in the immediate processes of cittas, long before the ‘pretty girl’), there is the “craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful”, as I understand. Hence, we get an idea of the subtlest degrees of craving that have to be known. Later we read that the wordling conceives and delights in this way (“Why does he conceive and delight in the earth?”) because “it has not been fully understood by him”. ““Full understanding of the known” is the wisdom of full understanding by which one fully understands, delimits (paricchindati), the plane of insight (vipassanaaabhuumi).”* B.Bodhi discusses the meaning of ma~n~naana and papa~nca in his introduction and Robert wrote about it in this post I just managed to find: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2064 ..... M: > Right--again, though, the clinging to the plain visible object (color) > is > different from the later clinging to the concept. By the way, since one > definition of 'subha' is 'beauty', I wonder if 'not beautiful' would be > a > better translation of 'asubha' in this context? .... S: Perhaps the degree of clinging is quite different and the object too, but still ‘perverted’ clinging, even without being accompanied by ditthi vipallaasa. I know Jon has also suggested the same by way of translation in this context. He may have raised it on the tapes you’re listening to. I’m not sure, even after looking at various translations and dictionaries and it may be significant. Nina or others may have an idea. ~Naa.namoli translates asubha as ‘foul (ugly)’ under Class. of Aggregates,155, Dispeller of Delusion: “And in particular, one who sees internal materiality a foul (ugly) fully understands nutriment consisting of material food, he abandons the perversion of [perceiving] beauty in the foul (ugly), he crosses the flood of sense desire, he is loosed from the bond of sense desire, he becomes canker-free as regards the canker of sense desire, he breaks the bodily tie of covetousness, he does not cling by the clinging to sense desire.” ..... M: > Maybe so--useful, at least, to be reminded of 'asubha' while painting a > beautiful naked girl...! ..... S: I remember in the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta we read about the understanding of the foul, good friendship and suitable talk, along with moderate eating and restraint of the sense doors for abandoning lust. I wonder if the beautiful naked girl is listening to the tape as well!!?? From the Maharahulavada sutta: “asubha~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of foulness, yo raago so pahiiyissati. that which is attachment will be abandoned...” (In this context, I think Nina somewhere wrote that asubha refers to the corpse meditation of at least access concentration level and probably in the Satipatthana Sutta reference as well. So I’m not sure how relevant these are and whether the translation should be the same.) Look forward to any further comments or reflections on this difficult topic. Metta, Sarah ====== *We read (p46) that ‘He who fully understands the earth understands it by the three types of full understanding: the full understanding of the known (~naataparin~n~na), the full understanding of scrutinization (tiira.napari~n~naa), and the full understanding of abandoning (pahaanapari~n~naa)............Or, alternatively, the defining of mentality-materiality (naamaruupa vavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehension of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity knowledge (anuloma) is the full understanding by scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning.’ ..... 24436 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 (3) Dear Larry: > Larry: Would someone like to say a few words on what > is the difference > between the consciousness of hardness and the > understanding of hardness? > Azita? -------------------------------------------------------- I can tell you about some personal experiences about the issue "Conscience versus understanding". I ever read at Plato that numbers are ideas. In all his works the same concept is postulate breathlessly on and on. Very good indeed! Number are ideas! That´s only a conscience of the concept: I´ve read at Plato that number are ideas, that seemed reasonable for me and after that I begun to read other book... But one day, reading as usual, I was with my TV tuned at MTV and the own concept knocked on my head abruptly (as a tiny bulb lamp shining over a comics character´s head...): Numbers ARE ideas !!!! Suddenly I perceived that the book that I was reading, the Guns´n´Roses video Clip, the MTV and so on are grounded basically on ideas and, by consequence, by numbers! Now I understand that numbers are ideas. This sounds similar to St. Augustine´s experience: he was meditatiting at his house´s veranda when a child playing outside begun to sing "Tomme et legge...Tomme et legge...". Augustine stood up and looked down on his open Bible at certain passage of the St.Paul´s Epistole to Romans that illuminated his understanding at that occasion. At a personal opinion, conscience and understanding belong to different mind modes of expression. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24437 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Jim: Jim: "I'm sorry for not being of much help in your > Pali translation > work (including MN 62) with corrections and > comments. This is largely > due to a lack of time and my struggle to keep the > internet from > overwhelming me. With the Vism subco. I don't > believe you're under any > obligation or pressure to translate and post these > passages from this > difficult work, much of which is over my head too." -------------------------------------------------- Gosh !!!!!! Visuddhimagga has got VERY DIFFICULT passages to translate!!!!!!!! I barely can handle a candle for it... Metta (and good luck!) Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24438 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Systematic Study of Dhamma Hi Manu (& Sukin), --- Manu Wadhwani wrote: > I joined this group some time back and have been following the > discussions > with considerable interest and awe. Although many of the things being > said > go over my head, it strengthens my resolve to carry on the study of > Dhamma > further. Opportunity to hear (and learn) Dhamma is one of the most > precious things and I am sincerely grateful to all the members of this > group > for being given this opportunity. .... This is a great introduction, Manu. I think much of what is said is over most our heads. Certainly there is much that is over mine. Like you say, if it encourages us to study, consider and develop more panna (wisdom) then it is most worthwhle. Of course we also think that it’s a precious opportunity to share and hear Dhamma. This is the purpose of the group and why we try to encourage everyone to contribute on list;-) If there are any topics or posts you’d like clarification on, please ask - you‘d do us all a favour and no questions are too basic. .... > My name is Manu Wadhwani. I have been living in Laos for a long time. .... Interesting and even more so that you’ve met Sukin before. (Sukin, I remember you telling me about a chance meeting and discussion some time back, I wonder if it was with Manu? Where are you from originally? Next time, remember to take a pic of the two of you in your shop;-)) ..... > I > started meditation and reading about Dhamma about 6 years ago. > > My study of Dhamma, like all new comers I would guess, is reading all > that I > can lay my hands on. I am not sure if that is the best approach. Is > there > any prescribed way of studying Dhamma? .... Like Sukin, my reading and study has always been very unsystematic - the odd page here and there while I get ready for students or am waiting for Jon. I may have quite a lot of texts, but then we’ve been collecting them over 30years. Many were second-hand or given to one of us. I’d recommend the Bhikkhu Bodhi sutta translations, any of Nina’s books or other texts which can be found on Robert K’s websites: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.vipassana.info/ If you have a chance to meet up with Sukin again, I’d recommend anything he recommends;-)Perhaps he can also take you to join a discussion with A.Sujin and perhaps you can join some of us in Bkk when we visit at the end of October. Christine, who like RobK, tends to be most systematic in her reading, sent some of her recommendations in this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23060 .... >It would be very interesting to > hear > from the members of this group about how they have structured their > study > because all seem so well organized, quoting and pointing to the > references > on any given topic immediately. .... I think that after you’ve been here a while, you’ll be doing the same....The reading and writing here encourages me to look up references when I have a moment. .... > Since many of the members are familiar with Thailand, can anyone suggest > where I can buy English translations of the Canon in Bangkok or Chiang > Mai? .... As I know, Sukin will take good care of you when you visit. Do you also speak Thai, I wonder? Metta, Sarah p.s Sukin, I’m arranging to send Manu some MP3s from the Foundation(English), but will leave you to give him books when he visits. ====================== 24439 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding Dear Eddie: Eddie: "Thanks for the advise. My first response seemed not > posted for some reason beyond my comprehension. Here > is 2nd." ------------------------------------------------- No problem, Eddie! The posts are running as usual! ----------------------------------------------------- Eddie: "I myself have done some analytical study (not > religiously & definitely not fanatically but > realistically & rationally) of my great Buddhism > especially Buddha's teachings. I did it more like a > scientific approach. Science even at this stage is > but > a micro-set (as compared to sub-set or super-set) of > Buddha's wisdom & teachings." --------------------------------------------------- Some remarks: The teachings of Buddha have not the direct intention to be scientifical or otherwise - they are a clear and clarifying exposition of "Dhamma": that´s the reason I am not a fan of Fritioj Capra´s "Tao of Physics" - "Wonderful! The Quantum realms of matter behaves like a Mahayana Sutta! Excellent!", but... who will make the Math calculations ? They seem to be very hard and apparently Mr. Capra won´t do it for you! Science and Maths belong to the same substratum of our minds that can attain and understand Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. I don´t see much more points of contact between them beyond these. Eddie...do you like Iron Maiden ? "Eddie" is the mascot of the band! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Metta, > Eddie Lou > --- icaro franca wrote: > > Dear Eddie: > > > > Dear Eddie, I can postulate a personal opinion > at > > these question about Dhamma. > > First, you must get a clear definition about > > "Dhamma" (law, concept, rule or even religion!) > > Then, take a good plunge at some buddhistic > > books: > > my favourite ones are the Lotus Sutra and the > > Dhammasangani. These two famous works explain the > > main > > concept of Dhamma at a complete way! Don´t be > afraid > > to stuff your precious head with all the > buddhistic > > "technical" terms: Cittas, Rupas, cetasikas and so > > on: > > they all fall in their fitted sockets without fail > > or > > mistake... the Abhidhamma really works!!! > > Then - at last! - take a seat at this group! > > Nina´s > > exegesis on Dharma and Pali, added by the > excelent > > commentaries of all members will really make > growth > > your understanding on these matters. > > A burden ? Not at all !!!! > > > > Metta, Ícaro > > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24440 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hello Mike! Mike: "I think I didn't ask my question very well. Do you > think it's possible to > attain not jhaana (obviously possible I think), but > enlightenment by way of > jhaana, as a layperson? Do you think this is > supported by the tipitaka?" --------------------------------------------------- After years reading the theravada buddistic suttas, I made an opinion about this very harsh question about Jhanas and illumination: Buddha really doesn´t stress others about illumination - He states clearly at a great number of passages that cultivating the Jhanas and reaching arahantship are MUCH MORE important than achieve a mental state of illumination by Jhana, Vipassana or otherwise. Again, that´s a question about opposite views between the Historical Buddha - that reached illumination at a definite place, a definite time and perhaps by a definite way of practice - and the Eternal Buddha, or Dhamma (I am using a typical viewpoint of Lotus Sutra), that postulates that even the illumination is only a mental affair and that keeping yourself cultivating the Jhana is more vital for you and for the Dhamma. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24441 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] introduction Hi Elias, --- elias broman wrote: > hello > > i use @hotmail.com therefore i cannot reply to your messages, but i can > write a new topic/post. .... I think Jon is helping you with this. I hope you sort it out and at least keep writing new topics;-) It’s really great to read your intro. Very unusual and I really hope it works out well. Please keep discussing your plans and ideas with us. Let us know if there's anything we can help with. We have another member from Denmark who is your age - Anders. I just heard from him. He’s spending a few months in Asia now, staying in temples and so on. Which Theravada books or texts do you enjoy reading? perhaps you can elaborate further on this: E:> As you may understand i practice the theravada teachings, > i usually test the opions untill noone or someone is correct. Elias, welcome again and please don’t worry about any grammar mistakes or typos. At least you have a good excuse which some of us don’t have. Thank you so much for sharing all the detail. I think you have a great mother too! Please, keep sharing and perhaps adding comments to any topics you find interesting here. Metta, Sarah p.s Do you or any other newbies have a pic to put in the album? http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst ====== 24442 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hello Larry! Larry: "Also, a bicycle isn't necessarily just a group of > rupas. It could also > be associated feelings, identities (sanna), and > valuations (like, > dislike, bewilderment). > > It would seem that sorting out concept and reality > is a key issue, but > whose job is it?" --------------------------------------------------- This can seem to be off-topic, but your quote about the bicycle as a group of rupas makes me remember a passage of Abhidhamma that I am particularly reading at this moment (curiously is not Dhammasangani´s, it´s the Patthanapali´s): the Aramana-Paccaya, or object-condition 2. Aramanapaccayoti rupayatanam cakkhuviññanadhatuya tamsampayutthakañañca dhammanam, etc... objects that form conscience and mental phenomena. Any object arising in mind is the conditionf of mind-conscience: cakkhuviññana, manoviññana,etc, Dhammanam. The bicycle as a mind object can be any bicycle at the past, present or future, linked or not with vedana, sanna, valuations and so on. However, a bicycle at reality could be assigned as a hetupaccaya ,or root-condition, for your bicycle as a mind-object - Aramanapaccaya. Like a 3D object and its image at two dimensions. Corrections are welcome. Mettaya, Ícaro > > Larry > --------------------- > > Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic > of penetrating the > individual essences of states." > Hi all, > Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this > as understanding has > the characteristic of penetrating the individual > characteristics of > states? > The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding > can't understand > concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. > Larry > ============================== > Howard: Here's a reply from this > non-abhidhammika: It depends on what one means by > 'concept'. To me, one > sense of 'concept' is that of a *thought* which sums > up a mentally > accumulated collection of paramattha dhammas, and > that thought, *as* a > thought, is, as far as I'm concerned, a direct > element of experience, a > paramattha dhamma, and it can be known by wisdom as > impermanent, > insubstantial, impersonal, and unsatisfying. > Moreover, it can be known > with wisdom that it is empty in the sense of not > pointing to the > apparent "thing" that it seems to point to, there > being no such thing, > that alleged thing being "concept-only". > With metta, > Howard ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24443 From: june_tg Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:29am Subject: food craving help hi i am new here and i am not sure if this is appropriate for this group. apologies beforehand if it isn't, in which case please direct me to the right place if you know where i should go i have been trying to keep the precept about food, i am planning to keep it forever in this lifetime and practice meditation. and it has been a little over 2 weeks, but i am still getting cravings, especially at night and they are pretty bad, i really feel like i am going to give in any day now. does anyone know how to stop the food cravings? i have tried drinking stuff, but they are so unsatifactory and the urge is so strong, i don't want to give in, but i don't know how to control this. sometimes i am not even hungry i just want to eat. i have also tried distracting myself and it works on occasions but every time i am done distracting myself, i find the urge is still there. has anyone gone through this and made it through all the way quite happily? thanks for any suggestions/help regards june 24444 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: food craving help --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "june_tg" wrote: > hi > > i am new here and i am not sure if this is appropriate for this group. > apologies beforehand if it isn't, in which case please direct me to > the right place if you know where i should go > > i have been trying to keep the precept about food, i am planning to > keep it forever in this lifetime and practice meditation. and it has > been a little over 2 weeks, but i am still getting cravings, Hi June, I just popped in, since I barely have anytime nowadays, and I read your delightful e-mail! Congratulations on making the decision to lessen your intake of food, in this day and age that is a very difficult decision to make. I am assuming that you are wanting to take the bhikkhu's (monk's) precepts of only eating one meal a day. That is a very admirable decision that will have numerous benefits for you, I wish you well. I think that you want to hear from someone who has done the same; unfortunately, I am currently not that person. However, I have observed the meal precept during long retreats…so I have some words of advice. First, don't start out with only one meal, perhaps you could have breakfast and lunch and then skip dinner…until you feel well enough to have the only one meal. There is no reason to torture yourself. Second, make sure that the one meal that you have is nutritionally balanced. Since your name is June and your writing is very American I am going to assume that you are American. Sweetie, let me tell you, American cuisine is not nutritionally balanced! ;-) I have found that Asian cuisine, with its mix of meat, vegetables, and grains is a more satisfying meal to have and will keep your hunger away longer. But what you must also realize is that your stomach needs to get smaller (and I mean your actual stomach…that organ) before your cravings for food will go away. Take it slow and make a gradual lessening in food until that is comfortable. Believe it or not anorexics don't feel hunger because they have let their stomachs shrink to the size of a walnut! ;-). Of course I don't recommend that you follow suit. Take it easy and don't try to put so much on your plate. Grandiose vows of food restrictions and meditation will only deflate your motivation and resolve in the end. You are on the right track, keep with it. Metta, James Ps. Yes, your e-mail is totally out-of-place in this group, but so what. So am I. ;-) 24445 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard! > Howard:" As far as I'm concerned, all conditioned dhammas > arise and cease, and IF > Abhidhamma or Buddhaghosa say otherwise, then they > are in error. I have always > considered concepts to be *thoughts*, and thoughts, > like all other > conditioned dhammas arise and cease. (Also, with > regard to *referents* of concepts, > trees for example, ultimately they don't arise and > cease, because ultimately there > are no such "things" as trees, but conventionally > and derivatively, they most > certainly do arise and cease. More about this > later.)" > ----------------------------------------------------- Uprooted Upasaka, curiously your quote - and the further - are in total concordance with the Patthanapali (at least the initial part I´ve read just for now), namely, the definition of Aramanapaccaya, or object-condition. A mind objects as a bicycle, or a tree, a cabbage, etc, has got not only rupa-similarity with the real thing, but cakkhu-viññana,mano-viññana, etc, linked or not with sanna, vedana, evaluations and so on. So, the real thing, at my opinion, is the hetupaccaya, or root condition, of these aramanapaccaya, that has the "sameness" in rupa, viññana, dhamma, etc, with similar objects of the same class. Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24446 From: elias broman Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:46am Subject: the way of finding out wouldn't it be great if people from all religion had a meeting and said. "i belive in jesus, that he lived, and that there is a god"... "but i do not know if it's true" , ... "I belive in the teachings of the buddhas, and that gotama buddha did exist"... "but i do not know if it's true"" - Ex. Asume you were to reflect over vinnana~rupa-nama. one can think "wouldn't that mean that nama is already conected to/or are rupa, before vinnana enters?" when we do reflect, we may find principles, ways, that might be correct, that might to seem ok, right. but we still ahve to say "but i do not know if it's true". untill we discover it for ourself. - Today i listened to a school-teacher and a group of pupils, and suddenly subject is changed and they begin to talk about death, and the school-teachers says "no one knows about death, no one who's alive does it". this dear dhamma freinds, we have an oppertunity to take a reflect break over! Whatever we might reflect out, this way, that way etc. wes till cannot know if it's true, untill we discover it ourself. some things are easier to find out to be true, ex the first two noble truths. but some thigns are much harder, ex rebirth. as for books, iv'e read much mahayana also, the heart sutra is very nice reading to reflect over. but i do follow the theravada 'tradition', i do follow the teachings of the buddhas, whatever name you give it, i just follow it, not the name it's given. if we say that other sects of buddhism is wrong, we are wrong. /elias >As you may understand i practice the theravada teachings, >i usually test the opions untill noone or someone is correct Elias 24447 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: food craving help Hi James! June: " hi > > > > i am new here and i am not sure if this is > appropriate for this > group. > > apologies beforehand if it isn't, in which case > please direct me to > > the right place if you know where i should go > > > > i have been trying to keep the precept about food, > i am planning to > > keep it forever in this lifetime and practice > meditation. and it > has > > been a little over 2 weeks, but i am still getting > cravings, > > > Hi June, > > I just popped in, since I barely have anytime > nowadays, and I read > your delightful e-mail! Congratulations on making > the decision to > lessen your intake of food, in this day and age that > is a very > difficult decision to make." ----------------------------------------------------- Wow James! I could use such advices for myself!!!!!!! June... perhaps you must take a deep breath, keep your mind calm and try to say something to yourself like "I´m not hungry... I´m not hungry... I´m not hungry..."...heheheh...just kiddin´! But speaking seriously, I keep myself at a strict diet because I must to. Taking examinations on Air Force make me take the hard decision to lost weight or be cut off. So, I cutted off entirely of my life chocolates, candies, ice-cream, noodles, pies, bread only a loaf at breakfast and so on. I´ve succedded not only to get less weight as to pass with honours at the examination! You must put in your mind a stainless decision to carry on your vows bravely. Mettaya, Ícaro I am assuming that you > are wanting to > take the bhikkhu's (monk's) precepts of only eating > one meal a day. > That is a very admirable decision that will have > numerous benefits > for you, I wish you well. I think that you want to > hear from someone > who has done the same; unfortunately, I am currently > not that > person. However, I have observed the meal precept > during long > retreats…so I have some words of advice. > > First, don't start out with only one meal, perhaps > you could have > breakfast and lunch and then skip dinner…until you > feel well enough > to have the only one meal. There is no reason to > torture yourself. > Second, make sure that the one meal that you have is > nutritionally > balanced. Since your name is June and your writing > is very American > I am going to assume that you are American. > Sweetie, let me tell > you, American cuisine is not nutritionally balanced! > ;-) I have > found that Asian cuisine, with its mix of meat, > vegetables, and > grains is a more satisfying meal to have and will > keep your hunger > away longer. But what you must also realize is that > your stomach > needs to get smaller (and I mean your actual > stomach…that organ) > before your cravings for food will go away. Take it > slow and make a > gradual lessening in food until that is comfortable. > Believe it or > not anorexics don't feel hunger because they have > let their stomachs > shrink to the size of a walnut! ;-). Of course I > don't recommend > that you follow suit. > > Take it easy and don't try to put so much on your > plate. Grandiose > vows of food restrictions and meditation will only > deflate your > motivation and resolve in the end. You are on the > right track, keep > with it. > > Metta, James > Ps. Yes, your e-mail is totally out-of-place in > this group, but so > what. So am I. ;-) > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24448 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] food craving help Hi, June - In a message dated 8/21/03 6:38:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, june_tg@y... writes: hi i am new here and i am not sure if this is appropriate for this group. apologies beforehand if it isn't, in which case please direct me to the right place if you know where i should go i have been trying to keep the precept about food, i am planning to keep it forever in this lifetime and practice meditation. and it has been a little over 2 weeks, but i am still getting cravings, especially at night and they are pretty bad, i really feel like i am going to give in any day now. does anyone know how to stop the food cravings? i have tried drinking stuff, but they are so unsatifactory and the urge is so strong, i don't want to give in, but i don't know how to control this. sometimes i am not even hungry i just want to eat. i have also tried distracting myself and it works on occasions but every time i am done distracting myself, i find the urge is still there. has anyone gone through this and made it through all the way quite happily? thanks for any suggestions/help regards june ============================= I'd just like to point out a couple matters in this regard. One of these is that monks do allow themselves some food in the evenings - fruit juice/milk I believe; I have even directly seen monks consuming ice cream in the evening (as the alleged equivalent of ghee). Another point is that what constitutes "midday" is an important issue. Typically, monks arise at 4:00 a.m. and retire around 10:00 pm. Thus, noon comes 8 hrs after awakening and 10 ours before retiring. When do you arise? Six pm? Seven pm? Eight pm? Later? You should determine, I think, when *your* midday comes. BTW, do you also abstain from alcohol? I ask that not to tell you what to do at all, but only to point out that that is a more fundamental, and clearly more important, training rule than abstaining from "late" food. The prohibition on eating past midday for monks, a prohibition which I observed for a while, BTW, and which I still observe in a greatly modified way (I typically allow myself only light snacks in the evening), is useful in some ways but doesn't seem to be one of major importance. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24449 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > I'm sorry for not being of much help in your Pali translation > work (including MN 62) with corrections and comments. This is largely > due to a lack of time and my struggle to keep the internet from > overwhelming me. .... I don’t think you or anyone else should feel any need to apologise for dropping in or out of a thread anytime. We all have to balance time and commitments and also look after creaky elbows, eyes other health concerns as well. I think Nina’s idea of just adding ??? in her translation is a good one. Then if you, Suan, or anyone else with expertise has any idea they can help without any pressure, just if they feel like it. I know Nina certainly doesn’t wish for anyone to be struggling, but just likes to encourage good friends to contribute as we do. I’ve certainly been interested to read your Vism comments to date. ..... > Summer is fast coming to an end, and it will soon be time to start > splitting firewood again in preparation for a long Canadian winter. It > seems that the last several autumns have been a time for me to take a > vacation from the discussion lists to spend time by myself, and this > year will be no different. ..... As I was mentioning to Victor on another 'solitary' thread, we can see such very different accumulations and tendencies here. We all share much in common with our keen interest in the Dhamma and development of insight and yet we have such varied temperaments, just as the listeners of the Buddha had. As I quoted from the Migasaala Sutta, no need to judge. We can just appreciate the benefit of the teachings whatever our lifestyle, I think and so for others too. .... >For the first ten years, I lived here from > early spring to late fall with no electricity or telephone > and managed quite well without them, but for the last five years that > all changed with my getting hooked up to these services. Today, I > thought it would be good to experience life for 3 months withou any > telephone, internet, or radio contact with the outside world. So I may > be disconnecting my phone and internet services for three months > starting sometime next month and I'm also planning to go away soon for > a week. If I do disconnect, I hope to be back online again by year's > end. .... Let us know, Jim, so that like Icaro’s bootcamp, we have an idea when we’ll see you again. We’ll still be struggling on the same passages in Vism I’m sure and you can pick up where you left off anytime. I liked Howard’s example the other day of how intentions can change anytime. He determined he wasn’t continuing a thread with Kom anymore and soon after was sending another detailed message on it. In any case, we’ll miss your contributions but look forward to your return. You mentioned your idea before to me of an organisation to support solitary dwelling. If you’d like to raise it here to determine any interest or support, then I’m sure others would be happy to hear more. I’m wondering also if the idea is related to how you perceive bhavana (mental development)in your life, Jim. Your comments on this thread would be interesting.(Pls only respond to this post if you’d care to). With metta and best wishes for your fall arrangements, however they work out. Sarah ======= 24450 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] food craving help Hi June, ----- Original Message ----- From: june_tg To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:29 AM Subject: [dsg] food craving help > i have been trying to keep the precept about food, i am planning to > keep it forever in this lifetime and practice meditation. Refraining from eating after noon (is this the precept you mean?) took me about three weeks to get used too. At first I was so hungry in the morning that I tended to stuff myself at meals. I eventually found that the more I ate in the morning, the hungrier I was the next morning. By eating moderately I gradually became quite content and even grew to enjoy being empty at night and also awoke feeling much more alert and so on. When keeping precepts, by the way, I think it's important to understand siilabbataparaamaasa--clinging to rules and rituals. This has the potential of making the keeping of precepts a hindrance rather than an aid to understanding. Good luck with 'contentment with little'! mike 24451 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Hi Sarah, Thanks for the good and complicated response--hope it didn't tax your arms too much. Just briefly, on reflection I think you're right--my 'aaramma.na vs. concept' construction was mistaken. A little more below: ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 2:11 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan > Strictly speaking I think sukha-vedanaa only accompanies bodily experience > (kaaya vi~n~naa.na). The following javana cittas may be kusala (wholesome) > or akusala (unwholesome) and accompanied by somanassa or domanassa (happy > or unhappy feeling). I'd forgotten about this. I think my problem is not understanding the details of vi~n~naa.na and javana. > S: I think it refers to both - the aaramma.na(object) and the later > concept. Right-- > Sa~n~na and citta vipallaasa(perversions of perception and consciousness) > arise with all akusala cittas, as I understand. Whenever the sa~n~na and > citta are not wholesome, they are 'perverted'. I guess so--I've been thinking of vipallaasa as depending on sukha-vedanaa rather than on somanassa (in the case of mistaking asubha for subha). This obviously couldn't be the case for any vi~n~naa.na other than kaya. > Without the understanding of > impermanence and anatta, there is bound to be the taking of ruupa > (physical phenomena) as subha. But only if the following javanas are accompanied by somanassa? Otherwise, why would ruupa seem subha? > This is what I understand when you > write:"Khun Sujin says that when ruupa is known as ruupa it is asubha > because it is too short to be the object of pleasure." Yes, I think you're right now. > ...I > think the taking as 'object of pleasure' can (and usually does) arise > immediately in the same sense door process or immediately following mind > door process, even though there is no idea of 'girl' for a good many > processes as we know. This certainly does seem to accord with the texts--I just don't really get it yet. Why should a cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na take the object as 'object of pleasure' if it's unaccompanied by sukha-vedanaa? And why would the following javanas be accompanied by somanassa if the object isn't inherently pleasant? Just anusaya? > Attachment can arise immediately on account of the > visible object when there is no pa~n~na which understands its nature at > the time. Hence, the references to 'guarding the sense doors' and the > power of developed insight to really know the true characteristics as they > appear. > > As you'll recall, we had some discussions on the Muulapariyaaya Sutta ages > ago and on the meaning of ma~n~nanaa (conceiving). I think I missed that thread. I lent my copy to a physicist friend (I thought it might appeal). I'll get it back and have another look. > As I understand, ma~n~nanaa thus arises even in the sense door process and > cannot be equated with conceiving or conceptualising. Yes, you've pretty well convinced me, I just don't understand it yet. > On p.40, we read > "having perceived earth thus with a perverted perception, the worldling > afterwards conceives it, i.e. construes or discriminates it, through the > strengthened proliferating tendencies of craving, conceit, and views, > which are called "conceivings" (aparabhaage thaamappattehi > ta.nhaamaanadi.t.thi papa~ncehi idha ma~n~nanaanaamena vuttehi ma~n~nati > kappeti vikappeti). This accords with the statement: "Concepts due to > proliferation are grounded upon perception" (sa~n~naanidaanaa hi > papa~ncasa.nkhaa)...... > > "He apprehends it... contrary (to reality)": like the conceiving of > views, the conceivings of craving and conceit also apprehend things > contrary to reality - craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful...." > > S: In other words, at each moment of attachment to sense objects > (including in the immediate processes of cittas, long before the 'pretty > girl'), there is the "craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful", as > I understand. Hence, we get an idea of the subtlest degrees of craving > that have to be known. Seems pretty clear--thanks for all the effort and the careful documentation. > I wonder if the beautiful naked girl is listening to the tape as well!!?? No, her work is over for the time being and I'm working alone (except for phantoms of Kaeng Kajan). I'm afraid she wouldn't have been interested or got much out of it--she's an anthropologist with a particular interest in primates (hence her willingness to pose for me, maybe...!). > (In this context, I think Nina somewhere wrote that asubha refers to the > corpse meditation of at least access concentration level and probably in > the Satipatthana Sutta reference as well. So I'm not sure how relevant > these are and whether the translation should be the same.) Yes, I think I remember this. Asubha can be confused (and confusing) in more ways than one (for me anyway). Thanks again for all the hard work, Sarah. mike 24452 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala, akusala, abyaakataa Dear Kenneth Ong, op 20-08-2003 18:57 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > I more concern are these indetermine citta play a role. It is weird > that it is left not explain. N: I understand your feelings. Actually, when feelings are classified as threefold we have: pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, feeling that is neither pleasant nor unpleasant. In the same way you could ask: why neutral feeling? Ven. Nyanatiloka states: N: In the context of Pali the word kamma should be used, not karma. Also: he omits rupa and nibbana, which are also abyaakataa. Rupa does not know anything, how could it be kusala or akusala? Nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma, sankhata dhamma, is neither kusala nor akusala, thus it is abyaakataa. You find it weird, but the Buddha passed on the nucleus of the Abhidhamma to Sariputta from whom originated the textual order. I repeat from an old post: There are many classifications of realities, and as we read: < the Elder, without spoiling the unique doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law (Dhamma).> The classifications make it easier to remember the Dhamma. Feelings can be classified as threefold, fivefold, sixfold, thirtysix and as hundred and eight. Cittas are classified in many ways, so are rupas. But it is very impressive that all paramattha dhammas can be classified as just these three:kusala, akusala, abyaakataa. Nothing is left out. Here are all sabhaava dhammas, dhammas with their own distinct nature, all that is neyya, that is to be understood. Nina. 24453 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Jim, Thank you very much for your corrections. I shall explain to Larry to put them in. I respect your decision, I understand. Lodewijk sympathizes warmly with you that you want to cut off telephone and radio, news is so bad. When in Dec may I write to you again? I ask this, because Yong Peng has his examinations in Nov. and only in Dec he may start a new sutta. He mentioned Elephant's footprint, but I have to ask him again. I depend so much on you for my texts on line. From where do you download co and subco? Maybe difficult for me. Which day in Sept do you turn the lights off? I feel like an orphan, quite a blow to us and the Pali list. You are the most able and inspiring teacher I know, and I always appreciate your help. To whom else could I turn? And now no more Kaccayaana! I do not feel good about it that I may have many mistakes in Co Rahula. Nobody else can or will correct me on Pali list. Would you please, before going away, indicate to me where the mistakes are, so that I can correct those. Yong Peng wants to put my texts on his net and it would be better without coarse mistakes at least. I always check my text with the Thai as best as I am able to. Your departure will mean my cutting down on translation activities. Lodewijk says that this is favorable, that I do too much. Yes, the subco Vis is getting too heavy for me. I will not translate systematically anymore, but here and there select something. I was on 4, and then I noticed too: padam: word or coin, I had coin first, but then thought, it is a grammatical explanation, thus word. Then I looked at 5 and saw something about the Buddha's wisdom, could not resist and went on. I find it too captivating. I do many things I had not intention to do. I did not have the intention to do so much Pali, Co Rahula included. But now that I cut down on Pali I have more time to translate from Thai, the Dhamma Issues. Just one question on Saddaniti, at the end. I completed "Meanings of dhamma". The word : But Canadian winter starts really end Dec. but autumn is earlier now. Thank you very much and I hope you have a good hibernation; yes, you have it every year. The simple life, no fringes. Nina. op 21-08-2003 03:04 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: >With the Vism subco. I don't believe you're under any > obligation or pressure to translate and post these passages from this > difficult work... >. So I may > be disconnecting my phone and internet services for three months > starting sometime next month and I'm also planning to go away soon for > a week. If I do disconnect, I hope to be back online again by year's > end. 24454 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:55am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 8. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:48:13 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 8. meanings of dhamma, no 8 no 8. The Saddaniti mentions further on more meanings of dhamma. some of them have been classified already and some of them not yet: N: words: payoga (m): means, undertaking, practice. di.t.tha: seen, understood. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as scriptures: Words: tathaa: thus. idha: here. pariyaapu.naati: to master, learn thoroughly. dissati: it seems, appears. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as sacca, truth: <"Di.t.thadhammo pattadhammo"ti-aadiisu sacce. In such passages as ³The dhamma that is understood, the dhamma that is realized², dhamma means truth. > Word: patta : p.p. of paapu.nati: to attain. The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta², Discourse on the Synopsis of fundamentals, (M I, 1, translated by Ven. Bodhi as ³The root of Existence², B.P.S., several meanings of dhamma are explained. sacca, truth is explained in a similar passage: <³He saw the Dhamma, understood the Dhamma² (D. 13) -in the sense of the (four noble) Truths.> The word dhamma as samaadhi, concentration is explained: <"Eva.mdhammaa te bhagavanto ahesun"ti-aadiisu samaadhimhi. In the passage of ³Those Exalted Ones had (were with) such dhamma² dhamma refers to concentration.> The same explanation is given in the Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta², and here is a reference to D. 13. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as pa~n~naa, wisdom in the same way as above, classified under the four virtues of a householder: <"Sacca.m dhammo dhiti caago"ti evamaadiisu pa~n~naaya.m. In a passage as ³truth, dhamma, courage and generosity² dhamma refers to wisdom.> The Saddaniti explains dhamma as nature (pakati): <"Jaatidhammaana.m bhikkhave sattaanan"ti evamaadiisu pakatiya.m. In such passages as ³Living beings, monks, are of a nature to be born², dhamma thus means nature.> The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta² states about dhamma as nature: ³Of a nature to be born, of a nature to grow old, of a nature to die² (D. 22.) **** Nina. 24455 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Re: food craving help Hello June, Welcome to dsg from me, I hope you will feel comfortable with us here and join in any discussions that interest you. I am assuming that you aren't eating solid food from midday until the following dawn? You would be aware that lay persons are required only to keep the Five Precepts - but that it is common practice to keep three extra ones on Uposatha days. Like Mike and Howard, I have my main meal early in the day and mostly only have a cup of tea or a small snack after that. I agree with Mike that we have to be careful our diet doesn't become a source of vanity or a ritual we become attached to. Thank you for raising this topic. As a reminder, for my own benefit, I sought out the eight Precepts - and found this final paragraph that I hope may be of some use to you. In the 6th precept, "the words "outside the time" mean after twelve noon until dawn the following day. During this time no food is eaten. However, some flexibility will be needed here with people going out to work. For them it would mean no food after their midday lunch until breakfast the next day. If one is troubled by tiredness after work on a day when these precepts are undertaken then tea or coffee are allowable as refreshing drinks. If hunger is the trouble then cocoa (or even plain chocolate) should cure it. None of these refreshments should contain milk, which is considered a food, though sugar, honey and butter are allowed (to bhikkhus, and therefore to lay people keeping the Eight Precepts), presumably because one can take only a little of these things. Fruit juices which have been strained (without fruit pulp) are other possible drinks." http://hjem.get2net.dk/civet-cat/theravada-writings/lay- practise/uposatha.htm metta and peace, Christine 24456 From: crystalmelodyhaven Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 0:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "eaglenarius" wrote: > Dear Robert and All friends, > > What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other > religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ? hello dear dhamma followers, as seen i got my own @yahoo.se mail now!. you wrote "What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ?" ~ a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc ~ that's just life, not hell. that's how life is now. we do our own punishment, fire and pain with an unstable mind. we have remorse, greif, etc. as the great gotama the buddha said, "the mind is the forerunner". mental pain is much worse then any physical pain. If Niraya would be a realm of physical pain over and over, it would mostly lead to mental pain if the mind is in a very negative formation over the acts that's happening. As for buddhist aspects of hell, niraya. it's in several realms|steps, as the deva-loka realm (6). there's fire and ice realm. whatever it's true or not i do not know. as said the danger of such a place would be mental negative and not physical pain. - i would add a little more extra information about life. "why are we born here?" the answer is, "because it's possible to live here" if we were born on ex mard we would die, because the temperature and other several things. We are formed after the envorinment and borned were it's possible to live. the sun is a star, around a sun a sun-system may be. now, how many stars is there in space? /Elias 24457 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Howard: "Also, with regard to *referents* of concepts, trees for example, ultimately they don't arise and cease, because ultimately there are no such "things" as trees, but conventionally and derivatively, they most certainly do arise and cease." Hi Howard, I agree with most of what you wrote on concepts, especially the business about them being impermanent. Although I think I can understand what the abhidhammikas are getting at by saying they are not impermanent. It is very similar to Plato's "Forms" as Icaro suggested. However, I don't understand what you mean by saying there are no such things as trees. If "tree" is a name (concept) that points to a particular group of rupas, what is it that doesn't exist? If a name arises and ceases then surely it exists and the rupas certainly exist. We could say the concept of a tree isn't a tree in the sense of being a group of rupas but that is different from saying the concept of a tree doesn't exist. Perhaps you are referring to the sign (nimitta) of a tree, the mental image and associated ideas. To my way of thinking signs and names serve the same function in identifying objects and so are both concepts. That a concept points to an object of experience is an equation: this "stands for" that. This is the convention involved. Could we say "convention" is a conditional relation? Larry 24458 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Hi Sarah, Thanks for your response. I'm only responding to the last parts of it. [...] > Let us know, Jim, so that like Icaro's bootcamp, we have an idea when > we'll see you again. We'll still be struggling on the same passages in > Vism I'm sure and you can pick up where you left off anytime. Yes, I'll let you know. I'm planning on having the phone line cut off near the end of next month and you should be hearing from me again around Christmas. I think I'll still continue to study the Vism during the meantime. > I liked Howard's example the other day of how intentions can change > anytime. He determined he wasn't continuing a thread with Kom anymore and > soon after was sending another detailed message on it. > > In any case, we'll miss your contributions but look forward to your > return. I'm sure I'll miss reading the emails. > You mentioned your idea before to me of an organisation to support > solitary dwelling. If you'd like to raise it here to determine any > interest or support, then I'm sure others would be happy to hear more. I'm > wondering also if the idea is related to how you perceive bhavana (mental > development)in your life, Jim. Your comments on this thread would be > interesting.(Pls only respond to this post if you'd care to). That idea came up on another list about a month ago and discussed for a couple of weeks and then it just sort of died. I haven't thought much more about it since then, but I'm still interested and was surprised to see you bring it up here, especially after what you were telling Victor. I think the idea might be of interest to anyone with the temperament for living a quiet life of seclusion devoted to the study and practice of the Theravadin teachings. It's still life as a layperson but it could be a viable alternative to living as an ordained monk or as a layperson in a hectic world. I think it is just a matter of interested people coming together to discuss the idea and how best to go about making such a lifestyle change. I think my interest in the solitary life began in my teens while reading H.D. Thoreau's Walden. I've also been inspired by Milarepa's story, the writings of Thomas Merton, and my solitary wanderings in Scotland which included visits to caves that were at one time the abodes of religious asectics. Best wishes, Jim 24459 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 (3) Hi Icaro, Re: the difference between the consciousness of hardness and the understanding (panna) of hardness. This is a good example (below) of a moment of understanding of a concept which was previously only understood on a superficial level. I think there could be many answers to this question and I hope Azita comes up with one. One way of looking at it might be that the consciousness of hardness is usually involved with feeling, identities, evaluations and intentions. They are all lumped together as one thing. But the understanding of hardness is just hardness, a rupa, distinct from feeling, identity, evaluation, and intention. This could apply to many situations in daily life. For example, I sometimes become angry because I have to do something, but the actual physical activity is free from all the emotions. This is a good one to remember for boot camp. Larry ps: we see with _consciousness_ but rule with _conscience_. ------------------------------- Icaro: Dear Larry: Larry: Would someone like to say a few words on what is the difference between the consciousness of hardness and the understanding of hardness? Azita? ---------------------------------------------- I can tell you about some personal experiences about the issue "Conscience versus understanding". I ever read at Plato that numbers are ideas. In all his works the same concept is postulate breathlessly on and on. Very good indeed! Number are ideas! That´s only a conscience of the concept: I´ve read at Plato that number are ideas, that seemed reasonable for me and after that I begun to read other book... But one day, reading as usual, I was with my TV tuned at MTV and the own concept knocked on my head abruptly (as a tiny bulb lamp shining over a comics character´s head...): Numbers ARE ideas !!!! Suddenly I perceived that the book that I was reading, the Guns´n´Roses video Clip, the MTV and so on are grounded basically on ideas and, by consequence, by numbers! Now I understand that numbers are ideas. This sounds similar to St. Augustine´s experience: he was meditatiting at his house´s veranda when a child playing outside begun to sing "Tomme et legge...Tomme et legge...". Augustine stood up and looked down on his open Bible at certain passage of the St.Paul´s Epistole to Romans that illuminated his understanding at that occasion. At a personal opinion, conscience and understanding belong to different mind modes of expression. Mettaya, Ícaro 24460 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 --- Dear Eagle, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "eaglenarius" < > Dear Robert and All friends, > > What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other > religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ? > > > ---------------------- There are many different hells according to the texts. The most extreme are nasty through every sense. In the salayatanasamyutta 35:135 (p1207 Bodhi translation) "I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named 'Contact's sixfold base'. There whatever form one sees with the eye is underdesirable, never desirable; unlovely, disagreaable. whatever sound..whatever taste..whatever odour..whatever tactile object..whatever mental phenomenon one cognises with the mind is undesirable.disagreeable..."endquote There are hot hells, cold hells, etc. I think they are as real as this human world; which is to say only experiences through the 6 doors. Now, in this plane, there are in reality no humans, computers, trees: these are only the shadows of the ultimate dhammas appearing. What appears to eyesense is different colours. Sometimes the moment of seeing is the result of kusala kamma (good kamma) and in that case the object will be pleasing to some degree. At other times, in this plane, the moment of seeing is the result of past akusala kamma- and in that case the object will be unpleasant to some degree. The same for the denizens of hell except that the eye conscious moments are the result of past akusala kamma and hence there is usually no opportunity for pleasant results. http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid24.html 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the Buddha said to the monks: 'Monks, there is a darkness of interstellar space, impenetrable gloom, such a murk of darkness as cannot enjoy the splendour of this moon and sun, though they be of such mighty magic power and majesty.' At these words a certain monk said to the Exalted One: 'Lord, that must be a mighty darkness, a mighty darkness indeed! Pray, lord, is there any other darkness greater and more fearsome than that?' 'There is indeed, monk, another darkness, greater and more fearsome. And what is that other darkness? Monk, whatsoever recluses or brahmins understand not, as it really is, the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus taking delight they compose a compound of activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus composing a compound of activities they fall down into the darkness of rebirth...and despair. They are not released from birth, and death...and despair. They are not released from dukkha, I declare. " _____________ EAGLE : How do we have to do now, to make sure that in the next rebirth we > won't forget dhamma at least in our next body's unconscious mind. > > Thanks, > Eagle ____________ From the same sutta: "But, monk, those recluses or brahmins who do understand as it really is, the meaning of : This is dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take not delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth...They are released from dukkha, I declare. Wherefore, monk, an effort must be made to realize: This is dukkha. This is the arising of dukkha. This is the ceasing of dukkha. This is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha." We are making right effort whenever there is more understanding of the Dhamma. We might become afraid of hell and want to turn away from hearing the Dhamma or try to believe that really there are no hells or future rebirths, but this is no solution. Summon courage and strive even more to uncover what the Buddha really taught and little by little all fears will be eradicated. It is the only way. _______________ What is the meaning of 'Norm' in the above passage ? is that a nation Norm > or a local norm or a Buddhist norm ? > > Thanks for your effort to erase my doubt. > __________________ The word Norm was used in The PTS society translation. A strange term to use, the Pali is Dhamma; in this case it means the teaching of the Buddha. ' RobertK p.s Thanks for your kind comments, Howard. 24461 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/21/03 7:38:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "Also, with regard to *referents* of concepts, trees for > example, ultimately they don't arise and cease, because ultimately there > are no such "things" as trees, but conventionally and derivatively, they > most certainly do arise and cease." > > Hi Howard, > > I agree with most of what you wrote on concepts, especially the business > about them being impermanent. Although I think I can understand what the > abhidhammikas are getting at by saying they are not impermanent. It is > very similar to Plato's "Forms" as Icaro suggested. > > However, I don't understand what you mean by saying there are no such > things as trees. If "tree" is a name (concept) that points to a > particular group of rupas, what is it that doesn't exist? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: The name (as it arises in the mind) or is spoken exists, though the name as an abstraction of such thinkings and speakings is yet a higher mental construct. But, yes, concept as name and as thought exists. I don't question that concepts as thoughts exist. In fact, I maintain that. To me concepts are thoughts. ------------------------------------------------------ If a name> > arises and ceases then surely it exists and the rupas certainly exist. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The status of a name in the abstract sense is, itself, conventional and concept-only. When I say "tree", that is a SOUND, and it exists. But the NAME 'tree' is never uttered - it is mere concept, a concept that has all actual sayings of "tree" underlying it, but fails to have a unique referent. Now the concept of 'tree', and every percept of a particular tree, is, in fact, a thought. And I have no question about thoughts arising and ceasing. They do. It is their alleged *referents* that, in fact, often do not exist, and what doesn't actually exist also doesn't actually arise or cease. The referent of the GENERAL concept of 'tree' does not exist - there is no Platonic tree existing anywhere, and the referents of particular tree-percepts *also* do not truly exist. The conventional tree I seem to see outside my window is only a seeming. There is merely visual object and visual consciousness and recognition and conceptualization all going on. The actual paramatthic objects occur, and the mental functions relating to them occur, and everything else is mere convention. Where (and when) does this alleged real, external tree begin and end? Does it include the leaves fallen from it, now on the ground? The broken-off branches? Is it the tree with leaves blowing now to the East, with the East wind, or is it the tree a moment later with the leaves listing to the West? Are all the unseen roots part of it? When it lies on the ground after a lightening strike, is it still the tree? Are the carbon dioxide and oxygen involved in the photosynthetic activity in the leaves part of the tree? Is the oxygen that is emitted still part of the tree or not? What we actually have are levels upon levels of superimposed concepts (ideas), and we speak "tree" to treat it all as a unity, a "thing". All that is actual are the paramattha dhammas, intricately and complexly interrelated, and these, themselves are flitting willow the wisps, without substance or own-being. ------------------------------------------------------ > We could say the concept of a tree isn't a tree in the sense of being a > group of rupas but that is different from saying the concept of a tree > doesn't exist. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The concept of a tree is an idea/thought. The group of rupas is not a thing existing anywhere except in the mind via a thought which is a particular tree-percept. We imagine that there is a real tree out there, a real physical object. That is a kind of mental projecting. We construct a thought-object and then reify it. It is often a well grounded thought-object, but still a thought-object only. --------------------------------------------------------- > Perhaps you are referring to the sign (nimitta) of a > > tree, the mental image and associated ideas. To my way of thinking signs > and names serve the same function in identifying objects and so are both > concepts. > > That a concept points to an object of experience is an equation: this > "stands for" that. This is the convention involved. Could we say > "convention" is a conditional relation? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Most often, the so called object of experience you refer to is non-existent. There are just the experienced interrelated paramattha dhammas, plus an additional thought that is the constructed concept/percept. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ============================= With metta, Howard (a figment! ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24462 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Howard: "Most often, the so called object of experience you refer to is non-existent. There are just the experienced interrelated paramattha dhammas, plus an additional thought that is the constructed concept/percept." Hi Howard, Experienced interrelated paramattha dhammas is what I am calling a tree. That no tree is present in my experience right now suggests that we are talking about a tree "in general". For this general "tree" to have any meaning it has to refer, ultimately, to experienced interrelated paramattha dhammas. At present, what this general "tree" refers to, for me, is a vague mental image that re-presents past experiences of groups of rupas called trees. This all seems like experience to me, even if vague, misrepresented, or mis-named. What doesn't exist? Larry 24463 From: Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/21/03 10:44:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Experienced interrelated paramattha dhammas is what I am calling a tree. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not one thing (or event); it's many. ----------------------------------------------- > That no tree is present in my experience right now suggests that we are > talking about a tree "in general". For this general "tree" to have any > meaning it has to refer, ultimately, to experienced interrelated > paramattha dhammas. At present, what this general "tree" refers to, for > me, is a vague mental image that re-presents past experiences of groups > of rupas called trees. This all seems like experience to me, even if > vague, misrepresented, or mis-named. What doesn't exist? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Of course there's experience there. Many experiences. That's all just fine. I'm no nihilist. There's not nothing at all. Nor are things the substantial business they seem to be. But, again, why worry about this so much. Let's just ride along the middle way easily, gently, calmly. We don't have to have it all down pat and just right. Let's just look and see as clearly as possible, do the right thing, cultivate calm, kindness, and clarity, and go on going on. ;-) ------------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24464 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 8:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, You wrote to Larry: ------------ > As far as I'm concerned, all conditioned dhammas > arise and cease, and IF Abhidhamma or Buddhaghosa say > otherwise, then they are in error. --------------- If we can see that one of our personal opinions is contrary to the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries, then we have a golden opportunity: we can take that personal opinion by the scruff of the neck and throw it out! :-) --------------- > I have always considered concepts to > be *thoughts*, and thoughts, like all other conditioned > dhammas arise and cease. --------------- In this instance, your opinion is that concepts should be regarded as conditioned dhammas: or at least, you think there is no harm in regarding them that way. But what if you are wrong and the Abhidhamma is right? It could be that the Middle Way is all about knowing that there are only dhammas and that concepts are not dhammas. I tend to think that concepts should be regarded as self (in a manner of speaking). Concepts and self are both illusory -- they are illusions of something more to reality than the five khandhas. An ariyan uses illusions to 'cross the street' but he doesn't believe in them. He does believe in dhammas, though. --------------- > This class of concepts serves to enable the grasping by > worldlings of the relational nature of the world, > wheras pa~n~na is the primary means that arahants > employ for such understanding. ---------------- I wonder if your personal opinion in favour of the 'existence' of concepts, is based on a concern that people might lose their way -- go off the deep end. I agree it would be wrong for an uninstructed worldling to profess to know what he clearly doesn't know. We don't know there is no self and we don't know there are no concepts. Furthermore, it would give the Dhamma a bad name were we to go about saying silly things like, "There is no you, no me; there are no cars, no trucks, no . . " There are ways of accepting the unreality of concepts without going off the deep end. It all comes back to that same old point of controversy: "The Dhamma is a description of reality, it is not a prescribed course of action." Kind regards, Ken H 24465 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: life story Dear Eddie, Thank you for sharing events of your personal life. This is quite a moving story. Did your mother get cured? After having had a shock one may look for what is really worth while in life. Nina. op 20-08-2003 19:38 schreef Eddie Lou op eddielou_us@y...: > only > when my mother suffered a lot from dialysis (bad) > effects because out of karuna & metta, I sympathized > and suffered pretty heavily. That opened my eyes to > start search for real truth. 24466 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] laypeople as bhikkhus in a sense. Dear Icaro, Nothing wrong at all with your question. Il n'y a pas de gaucherie du tout, du tout. It gave me the opportunity to tell about my impression in Thailand, just from life. Dhamma is life. We talk about life. I do not see anything off topic. Certain rules in a forum, yes, as to avoiding politics, and not being rude or sharp to others. What impresses you of the Lotus sutta? I do not know it, but heard about it. Nina. op 20-08-2003 20:42 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Quelle gaucherie de ma part! > Nina, I?ve raise such "off-topic" question 24467 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Dear Sarah and Mike, op 21-08-2003 11:11 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > By the way, since one >> definition of 'subha' is 'beauty', I wonder if 'not beautiful' would be >> a >> better translation of 'asubha' in this context? N: I remember that the Buddha was teaching a monk who was taken in by feminine beauty and made him see the same girl as older and older, decaying. Is decay nice to see, wrinkles, yellow teeth, etc, it happens so soon, before you realize it, I assure you. And it is not beautiful or attractive, it is foul. Or what is going on in the intestines: the faeces of a baby do not smell so much, but those of elderly people have a foul odour. Foulness. Decay. Now, about the momentary decay: is it attractive, beautiful? When this can be realized, the aspect of foulness can also be seen more profoundly. The foulness is in the object, and it is panna which can realize it. it may confuse us to think so much of citta accompanied by pleasant feeling or not. Nina. 24468 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 (2) Hi Larry, wait a while please, I am coming up with more subco, but full of mistakes :-) :-) And Jim is going away, :-( :-( op 21-08-2003 01:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the > individual essences of states." > > Hi Nina and Jim, > > Why is there no mention of the general characteristics here? > (impermanence, suffering, not self) 24469 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 (3) Dear Larry, I just looked at the Pali, individual essences, this is clear now: dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.naa pa~n~naa, the characteristic of pa~n~naa is to penetrate: dhammasabhaava: sabhaava: the distinct nature or characteristic of dhamma. Remember the "Meanings of Dhamma", one of them was sabhaava. Panna understands and citta experiences hardness: the body-consciousness, vipakacitta, experiuences hardness. It is not citta with panna which understands hardness as rupa, as a conditioned reality with its own characteristic. Nina. op 21-08-2003 01:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Vism. XIV, 7: What are its characteristic, function, manifestation and > proximate cause? Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the > individual essenses of states. > Larry: Would someone like to say a few words on what is the difference > between the consciousness of hardness and the understanding of hardness? 24470 From: Sukinderpal Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Nina, Sarah, Mike and all, Thanks for the encouragement. I have been thinking about what you wrote below; "Everybody writes in his own way, even if the contents are similar" This relates to one of the questions which I asked Sarah and Jon when they were last here in Bangkok. I was thinking about the limits of language and communication, particularly when using Buddhist concepts to understand reality. Since then my view has changed prompted largely by Sarah's reminder that it was all just 'thinking'. But I will say something about it anyway, at least I will be sorting out my thoughts and find out if I am any closer to better understanding the situation. In normal everyday use of language we can afford to be vague since we are talking about unrealities anyway [and of course conventional realities, even one apprehended by the clearest minds cannot lead to insight]. The worldling like myself, overwhelmed by one's own kilesa does not care if he is dealing with illusion only. After all everyone agrees to the illusion and it is good enough to get by. Of course one does not realize and does not make the choice to 'get by', it is just avijja, avijja where ever one looks. As a student of Buddha's teachings we begin to differentiate, at least in theory, between conventional realties and actual phenomena. And we still function largely with a deluded mind, but sometimes there can be sati, and one learns a little more about this distinction. I understand that it is in the nature of language itself, and I am not talking about how others handle this. I am more concerned about how it influences my own attempt to understand Buddha's teachings. The thing is, I am wondering if I am being limited by terms such as anatta, anicca etc., such that when someone else uses them in a particular context, I *think* I understand them, but actually I don't. The words themselves conjure up a certain image and I end up more like just using them conveniently to reinforce my limited understanding. In other words I use them quite automatically and mindlessly. This is why I asked Sarah about her own experience knowing that she is quite beyond this obstacle (if indeed it is), and wanted to find out if the teachings themselves had a way to self-check any such limitations. Anyway, now I think this is all a result of confusion, too much thinking :-). Firstly, there is just this moment and understanding this moment does not require words. Though I think that the Buddha's words are universal in their application and all individuals can benefit from them as per their level of understanding, I think the Teachings ultimately point to the actual experience, not to create abstract situations and consequently attempt to find an answer. The true dhamma as heard here on dsg, is not so much Buddhist concepts, but the reminder about what is real, that can be known directly. Besides one is asked again and again to not mistake concept for reality. So anatta, anicca, dukkha are not just ideas to use as convenient, but to be insighted. Before that happens, we will still "think" these concepts with the limited understanding that we have, but the best reminder is that even such thinking is 'conditioned'. Truthfulness, patience, sense of detachment, all are quite necessary supports to higher levels of understanding, and all this and more has been taught by the Buddha. And when we hear about them they condition as sankhara. I know that I am in the right place, and I think I should write more often ;-). There are so many people here who can help me to straighten my views. Thank you Nina, Sarah, Mike and everyone else, for the excellent dhamma you share here. It is indeed a blessing to be a member of dsg and to know personally many of you. :-) Metta, Sukin ps: Nina, regards to Lodewijk from me please. -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 11:37 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin, No, here you are wrong. Everybody writes in his own way, even if the contents are similar, therefore, interesting to read. We like to hear you too!! Do not compare yourself with others :-) :-) How is our good friend Dharam? Kindest regards also from Lodewijk. Nina. op 20-08-2003 11:00 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukin@k...: > I discover later that many of the > reponses match mine. The latest being Kom's response in the Rt. > Livelihood thread. But as I said, he understands things much more > deeply and is more experienced with the particular outlook. Even some > of your own responses, have almost exactly matched mine ;-). 24471 From: june_tg Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:25pm Subject: Re: food craving help thanks for all your help. i guess i should mention i am not american, i just grew up there. the only reason i am keeping the 8 precepts is because lately my confidence in buddhism grew and i have come to believe that there is something special about meditation. i find that not eating is quite supportive when you want to get into that state of calm. otherwise the body is too heavy. some days things go well, but other days i have this food craving and i feel so restless that i can't get myself to sit. i guess i should try some walking meditation. does anyone know a good book or website about that? thanks again regards june 24472 From: eaglenarius Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Dear Elias, I appreciate very much your explanation. Good luck for your decision to become a monk, hopefully you could attain at least a stream entry and don't forget to share your experience at that time, since no arahant want to share, now. Thanks, Eagle -----Original Message----- From: crystalmelodyhaven [mailto:crystalmelodyhaven@y...] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:08 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 hello dear dhamma followers, as seen i got my own @yahoo.se mail now!. you wrote "What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ?" ~ a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc ~ that's just life, not hell. that's how life is now. we do our own punishment, fire and pain with an unstable mind. we have remorse, greif, etc. as the great gotama the buddha said, "the mind is the forerunner". mental pain is much worse then any physical pain. If Niraya would be a realm of physical pain over and over, it would mostly lead to mental pain if the mind is in a very negative formation over the acts that's happening. As for buddhist aspects of hell, niraya. it's in several realms|steps, as the deva-loka realm (6). there's fire and ice realm. whatever it's true or not i do not know. as said the danger of such a place would be mental negative and not physical pain. - i would add a little more extra information about life. "why are we born here?" the answer is, "because it's possible to live here" if we were born on ex mard we would die, because the temperature and other several things. We are formed after the envorinment and borned were it's possible to live. the sun is a star, around a sun a sun-system may be. now, how many stars is there in space? /Elias 24473 From: eaglenarius Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 Dear Robert, Thanks for your great explanation. I believe you had burnt one complete set of Pali Canon, diluted in water and drunk it. Eagle. -----Original Message----- From: rjkjp1 [mailto:rjkjp1@y...] Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 7:48 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Rare human birth1 --- Dear Eagle, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "eaglenarius" < > Dear Robert and All friends, > > What is the concept of Hell in Buddhisme ? Is it just like in other > religion ( a place full of punishment, fire, pain etc) ? > > > ---------------------- There are many different hells according to the texts. The most extreme are nasty through every sense. In the salayatanasamyutta 35:135 (p1207 Bodhi translation) "I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named 'Contact's sixfold base'. There whatever form one sees with the eye is underdesirable, never desirable; unlovely, disagreaable. whatever sound..whatever taste..whatever odour..whatever tactile object..whatever mental phenomenon one cognises with the mind is undesirable.disagreeable..."endquote There are hot hells, cold hells, etc. I think they are as real as this human world; which is to say only experiences through the 6 doors. Now, in this plane, there are in reality no humans, computers, trees: these are only the shadows of the ultimate dhammas appearing. What appears to eyesense is different colours. Sometimes the moment of seeing is the result of kusala kamma (good kamma) and in that case the object will be pleasing to some degree. At other times, in this plane, the moment of seeing is the result of past akusala kamma- and in that case the object will be unpleasant to some degree. The same for the denizens of hell except that the eye conscious moments are the result of past akusala kamma and hence there is usually no opportunity for pleasant results. http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid24.html 'Kindred Sayings' (V, Maha-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch. V, part 6, Gross darkness) that the Buddha said to the monks: 'Monks, there is a darkness of interstellar space, impenetrable gloom, such a murk of darkness as cannot enjoy the splendour of this moon and sun, though they be of such mighty magic power and majesty.' At these words a certain monk said to the Exalted One: 'Lord, that must be a mighty darkness, a mighty darkness indeed! Pray, lord, is there any other darkness greater and more fearsome than that?' 'There is indeed, monk, another darkness, greater and more fearsome. And what is that other darkness? Monk, whatsoever recluses or brahmins understand not, as it really is, the meaning of: This is dukkha, this is the arising of dukkha, this is the ceasing of dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus taking delight they compose a compound of activities which conduce to rebirth. Thus composing a compound of activities they fall down into the darkness of rebirth...and despair. They are not released from birth, and death...and despair. They are not released from dukkha, I declare. " _____________ EAGLE : How do we have to do now, to make sure that in the next rebirth we > won't forget dhamma at least in our next body's unconscious mind. > > Thanks, > Eagle ____________ From the same sutta: "But, monk, those recluses or brahmins who do understand as it really is, the meaning of : This is dukkha, this is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha, such take not delight in the activities which conduce to rebirth...They are released from dukkha, I declare. Wherefore, monk, an effort must be made to realize: This is dukkha. This is the arising of dukkha. This is the ceasing of dukkha. This is the practice that leads to the ceasing of dukkha." We are making right effort whenever there is more understanding of the Dhamma. We might become afraid of hell and want to turn away from hearing the Dhamma or try to believe that really there are no hells or future rebirths, but this is no solution. Summon courage and strive even more to uncover what the Buddha really taught and little by little all fears will be eradicated. It is the only way. _______________ What is the meaning of 'Norm' in the above passage ? is that a nation Norm > or a local norm or a Buddhist norm ? > > Thanks for your effort to erase my doubt. > __________________ The word Norm was used in The PTS society translation. A strange term to use, the Pali is Dhamma; in this case it means the teaching of the Buddha. ' RobertK p.s Thanks for your kind comments, Howard. 24474 From: eaglenarius Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Killing responsibility Dear Nina, Yes, You're right unless we have a time tunnel. Now I keep on learning buddhist teachings, and try to practice it. By the way, are you speaking Indonesian, since you mention the dharma group Bogor ? Thanks, Eagle -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 12:05 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Killing responsibility Dear Eagle, There were countless past lives during which all of us have killed, and those kammas of long, long ago can bring results now or in the far future. If we start to worry there is no end and we have even more akusala cittas. Past is past, it has happened already and no use to worry. Nobody, except Buddhas, can know what kamma in the past will bring which result at what time. There were conditions for those kammas to happen. Better pay attention to this moment: not wasting opportunities for kusala and understanding. Nina. op 19-08-2003 12:37 schreef eaglenarius op eaglenarius@c...: > Do we have to bear the > consequences of bad act that we had done when we were a small child which > did not understand this karmic law ? 24475 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Systematic Study of Dhamma Dear Sarah, > Interesting and even more so that you've met Sukin before. (Sukin, I > remember you telling me about a chance meeting and discussion some time > back, I wonder if it was with Manu? Where are you from originally? Next > time, remember to take a pic of the two of you in your shop;-)) Originally, I am from India. I got to know Sukin from one of yahoo groups. After corresponding with him, I visited him at his shop. At that time he gave me a copy of Khun Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life". Since I had browsed through CMA by Bikkhu Bodhi earlier and found it very difficult, by comparison Khun Nina's book was easy to understand and thoroughly enjoyable to read. (My salutations to Khun Nina). > If you have a chance to meet up with Sukin again, I'd recommend anything > he recommends;-)Perhaps he can also take you to join a discussion with > A.Sujin and perhaps you can join some of us in Bkk when we visit at the > end of October. > Conditions permitting, I would like nothing better than that. > As I know, Sukin will take good care of you when you visit. Do you also > speak Thai, I wonder? > I speak both Thai and Lao fairly well. Warmest regards, Manu 24476 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: food craving help Hi June, Thanks for joining us and for raising your question here. As James implied, your qu was a little unusual here (but not out-of-place), just like him;-) (Hi James, waiting for Egypt Diary2;-)). Actually, I really liked the kind and helpful responses James, Icaro, Howard, Mike & Christine gave a lot. I think it’s good to give support in this area whilst looking at our purpose at the same time. I think I see it rather like the ‘living in solitude’ or dressing simply in white threads. It’s good to give assistance to others, whilst recognising it’s not for everyone and won’t of itself take us closer to nibbana;-) --- june_tg wrote: > thanks for all > i guess i should mention i am not american, i just grew up there. .... Hopefully you’ll tell us a little more about yourself in your own time, June. .... > the only reason i am keeping the 8 precepts is because lately my > confidence in buddhism grew and i have come to believe that there is > something special about meditation. i find that not eating is quite > supportive when you want to get into that state of calm. otherwise the > body is too heavy. ..... I think there are many advantages in eating less....including health considerations and more time for DSG;-)(Also, less shopping, preparing, cooking, washing-up....;-)) ..... >some days things go well, but other days i have > this food craving and i feel so restless that i can't get myself to > sit. i guess i should try some walking meditation. does anyone know a > good book or website about that? ..... Perhaps, as others have suggested, you could follow a modified version of the 8 precepts and have the same benefit of lightness without the pressure. It can be very difficult to follow exactly in a lay life, especially when working, travelling or spending time with friends and family. A few other suggestions: - if you’re following a modified version, try having a little fruit and nuts mid-afternoon - have a couple of desert dates in the morning and later if you’re low in energy. Or some dried fruit... - make some veggie broth and finely strain - drink the liquid for energy rather than tea or coffee perhaps. Diluted apple juice is good or soya milk.... - I think it’s better to avoid caffeine completely in the afternoon if possible and to try to go to bed early and get up early. I think a late routine makes it harder to follow this precept. - I’m sure it would help to get some exercise - swimming, hiking, Tai chi - whatever you like. June, perhaps you could tell us more about how and why your confidence in Buddhism has grown. Do you think it’s possible for your understanding and practice to develop even when you’re having food cravings and unable to sit quietly? I’m sorry, I don’t know any books or websites that are relevant, but there are many references to the Buddhist monks drinking congee (cooked rice) water first thing in the morning for any digestive problems and of course many references to attachment to food. I think you’ll find it helpful to read these past messages and maybe follow the links as they include many of these references. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14298 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14408 Finally a quote from the Questions of King Milinda. I’m reading it in the Sammohavinodanii,2179(PTS Dispeller of Delusion) now: Ven Nagasena says: “...your Majesty, this ten-thousandfold world system carries one Buddha; it carries the qualities of only one Tathagata. If a second Buddha were to appear, this ten-thousandfold world system would not carry him. It would waver and tremble and rock and swoop and swerve and tumble and roll over and capsize, and it would not come to rest. ‘Or indeed, your Majesty, just as a man might eat as much food as he wished and, enjoying it and being filled up to his gullet, might be sated, appeased, filled, stuffed, dazed and stiff as a board, would he be happy if he were to eat as much again?’ ‘No, venerable sir, if he ate as much again he would die.’ ‘So indeed, your Majesty, this then-thousandfold world system carries one Buddha ...would not come to rest.’ “ Metta and look forward to more of your unusual qus, Sarah ====== 24477 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Victor, Howard & Mike, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > What needs to be cut off is lust (chandaraga), not sense faculty. .... I think we all agree with your comment. Mike questioned why attachment arises immediately to sense objects and I think the answer is ignorance. Another quote from the Samohavinodanii (~Naa.namoli’s PTS tansl of the commentary to the Vibhanga, 2nd text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka): 602 “Furthermore, his non-abandonment of that ignorance about the four noble truths in particular prevents him from recognising as suffering the suffering called the fruit of merit which is fraught with the many dangers beginning with birth, ageing, disease and death, and so he initiates the formation of merit [pu~n~nabhisa’nkhaara] classed as bodily, verbal and mental formation in order to attain that [very suffering], like one desiring celestial nymphs [who jumps over] a mountain cliff. ‘Also , not seeing how the fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually produces great distress owing to the suffering in change, and that it gives no satisfaction, he initiates the formation of merit of the kinds aforesaid which is the condition for that [suffering], like a moth falling into a lamp’s flame, and like one who wants the drop of honey licking the honey-smeared knife-edge. Also, not seeing the danger in the indulgence of sense-desire, etc. and the results thereof, through [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and being overcome by defilements, he initiates the formation of demerit[apu~n~nabhisa’nkhaara] occurring in the three doors, like a child who plays with filth and like one who wants to die and eats poison. ‘Also, not aware of the suffering in change [and suffering] in formations [present] in immaterial results, through the perversion [vipallaasa] of [perceiving them as] eternal, etc., he initiates the formation of the imperturbable [aane~njabhisa’nkhaara]* which is the mental formation, like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city. ‘...This too is said; ‘Not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance he forms formations of merit, forms formations of demerit, forms formations of the imperturbable. As soon, bhikkhus, as a bhikkhu’s ignorance is abandoned and clear vision is arisen, bhikkhus, with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of clear vision he does not form even formations of merit.’(cf Sii 82).” ..... > Whether to live with husband, or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, > or in a house crowded with children and possession or to live alone > in solitude is a personal decision. Even if one lives with husband, > or wife, or girlfriend, or boyfriend, or in a house crowded with > children and possession, one can still observe the five precepts, > refraining from unwholesome actions, and meditate, cultivating one's > mind. ..... Victor, I think we’ve found some common ground and agreement on this thread and I thank you for helping and encouraging me to consider the texts and Dhamma from different viewpoints and to reflect further on some deep-seated attachments. (Howard, I also greatly appreciated your contributions and your family have our very best wishes during this difficult time. I'm quite sure your mother in law must really be glad of your kindness and encouragement at this time.) Victor, You have my full support for however your lifestyle works out. For those who choose or find themselves by conditions living ‘in solitude’, please always know you have good friends here who are always most glad to hear from you and share Dhamma reminders. Ultimately, we are all living alone in solitude with the sense faculty experiences. With metta, Sarah ===== * Nyantiloka dict.: Aane~nja: ‘imperturbability’, denotes the immaterial sphere(aruupavacara) under Sankhaara: 1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, (paticcasamuppáda), sankhára has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), speech (vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.). This definition occurs, e.g. at S.XII.2, 27. For s. in this sense, the word 'karma-formation' has been coined by the author. In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined by reference to * (a) meritorious karma-formations (puññ'ábhisankhára), * (b) demeritorious k. (apuññ'abhisankhára), * (c) imperturbable k. (áneñj'ábhisankhára), e.g. in S.XII.51; D.33. This threefold division covers karmic activity in all spheres of existence: the meritorious karma-formations extend to the sensuous and the fine-material sphere, the demeritorious ones only to the sensuous sphere, and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere. ================================= 24478 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] laypeople as bhikkhus in a sense. Dear Nina: Nina: " Dear Icaro, > Nothing wrong at all with your question. Il n'y a > pas de gaucherie du tout, > du tout. > It gave me the opportunity to tell about my > impression in Thailand, just > from life. Dhamma is life. We talk about life. I do > not see anything off > topic. Certain rules in a forum, yes, as to avoiding > politics, and not being > rude or sharp to others. > What impresses you of the Lotus sutta? I do not know > it, but heard about it." ---------------------------------------------------- Well, very good! The Lotus Sutta - or Sadhamma-Pundarika Sutta - as all Mahayana texts, intends to be a encyclopedical resume of all traditional buddhistic teachings. You will find some of these very small - as the Heart Sutta - and others as big as the Patthanapali!!! When I begun my studies on Abhidhamma, I usually took the Lotus Sutta as a refreshing between that real conceptual marathon called Dhammasangani - and only at saturday mornings, because I was taking also my MSc examinations and Thesis on Engineering!!! What Could I say about the Lotus Sutta ? At first place, it is a real Boddhicitta - a very admirable one! - embodied with all the six perfections. Could one concentrate all that´s important on Buddhism in one tiny and single volume ? Well, the Lotus Sutta do it, and more! It´s a real inspiration for all serious readers of Mahayana Buddhism, either at the solitude of a cabinet, or watching and listening Iron Maiden, Guns´n´Roses, David Bowie, etc, at MTV. As good as listening lectures of His Holiness The Dalai Lama! I usually like to make comparisons between the Lotus Sutta and the Abhidhamma - the first ressembles an echo of the grandeur and accuracy at mental states´ classification of the last. Certain chapters of the Lotus Sutta inspired many buddhistic reformes at China and Japan, as Tien´Tai and Daishonin. And, as a reader of the Dhammasangani - and now the huge Patthanapali, taking aside for a moment the Vibbhanga, Puggalapañña, Dathukattha, Katthavatthu, Yamaka and letting the Vism for others more learned on Pali than me - I can say that if the Dhammasangani is the magnus opus of Theravada Buddhism, the Lotus Sutta is...is...incomensurable!!!! Dear Nina, that´s only my humble humble opinion about these issues. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24479 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 10:10 PM Subject: RE: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** > The thing is, I am wondering if I am > being limited > by terms such as anatta, anicca etc., such that when someone else uses > them in > a particular context, I *think* I understand them, but actually I don't. I think all us puthujjanas are in the same boat. These concepts all start out as just that, concepts, but they are essential, this is pariyatti. When enough understanding of them has accumulated it can condition a moment of insight into present reality, this is pa.tipatti. Then insight can condition pa.tivedha, liberation. But it all has to begin with these concepts, I think. This is the way I see it, anyway-- > ...I > know that > I am in the right place, and I think I should write more often ;-). Hear, hear! Looking forward to more. mike 24480 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Sarah, Thanks for the excellent quote from the Samohavinodanii! I can never be reminded to often that even kusala kamma only continues sa.msaara. mike 24481 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Asubha at Kaeng Kajan > The foulness is in the object, and it is panna which can realize it. it may > confuse us to think so much of citta accompanied by pleasant feeling or not. You have a point! I think I'll just set this one aside for a while. Thanks, mike 24482 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Yes, I'll let you know. I'm planning on having the phone line cut off > near the end of next month and you should be hearing from me again > around Christmas. I think I'll still continue to study the Vism during > the meantime. .... That’s good to hear. By coincidence,we had notes (off-list) from two of our friends from Sri Lanka yesterday. It made me wonder if it would be helpful if anyone there were to check in any 2nd hand book shops in SL for any of the old Pali grammar texts you need for your work. If so, perhaps you could just reply here with the titles of the main works you would like and if anyone has any success in tracking any of them down anytime, they can let you know. .... > surprised to see you bring it up here, especially after what you were > telling Victor. .... I see a distinction between supporting each other with Dhamma study and understanding in the various lifestyles (see my post to June in this regard) and having an idea that one lifestyle ‘fits all’ or is best for all. Does that make sense? ..... >I think the idea might be of interest to anyone with > the temperament for living a quiet life of seclusion devoted to the > study and practice of the Theravadin teachings. It's still life as a > layperson but it could be a viable alternative to living as an > ordained monk or as a layperson in a hectic world. I think it is just > a matter of interested people coming together to discuss the idea and > how best to go about making such a lifestyle change. ..... I think this is a good idea and just like those (like June) following the 8 precepts may be able to give each other support, encouragement and suggestions, so too can those making these lifestyle changes as you suggest. I think it’s much better too, to live a ‘good’ life as a layperson in this way, following a simple and secluded lifestyle than becoming an ordained monk if one isn’t able to follow all the vinaya rules precisely and thus playing a part in the decline of the Sangha as RobK pointed out. Just my view. ..... > I think my interest in the solitary life began in my teens while > reading H.D. Thoreau's Walden. I've also been inspired by Milarepa's > story, the writings of Thomas Merton, and my solitary wanderings in > Scotland which included visits to caves that were at one time the > abodes of religious asectics. .... So, even before your serious interest in the Dhamma, we can see your inclinations and accumulations in this regard, Jim. Before you disappear, perhaps you’d care to share more of your ideas and suggestions that might be helpful for others who willingly or unwillingly find themselves living alone and removed from social contact, but wishing to pursue ‘study and practice of the Theravadin teachings’. What are the difficulties and benefits now compared to when you first moved to your cottage and started living like this? I’m sure you must have considered ordaining on many occasions. Is there anything else you’d like to mention about your idea of mutual support? Metta, Sarah ====== 24483 From: Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/21/03 11:37:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > You wrote to Larry: > ------------ > > As far as I'm concerned, all conditioned dhammas > >arise and cease, and IF Abhidhamma or Buddhaghosa say > >otherwise, then they are in error. > --------------- > > If we can see that one of our personal opinions is > contrary to the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries, then > we have a golden opportunity: we can take that personal > opinion by the scruff of the neck and throw it out! :-) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha taught repeatedly and uneqivically that all conditioned dhammas are impermanent and unsatisfying, and, of course, not self. And there is but one unconditioned dhamma. I follow the Buddha's teaching. I throw out positions diametrical to it. -------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > > I have always considered concepts to > >be *thoughts*, and thoughts, like all other conditioned > >dhammas arise and cease. > --------------- > > In this instance, your opinion is that concepts should be > regarded as conditioned dhammas: or at least, you think > there is no harm in regarding them that way. But what if > you are wrong and the Abhidhamma is right? It could be that > the Middle Way is all about knowing that there are only > dhammas and that concepts are not dhammas. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is but one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. As far as concepts are concerned, I think we use the term 'concept' differently. I just mean a thought. Thoughts are conditioned mind-door objects, and they arise and cease, dependently. I believe that when you speak of a concept, you mean what I call the alleged referent of a concept. In the overwhelming majority of cases, concepts in that sense are literally nonexistent. It is even false to say that they don't arise and don't cease, because there is no "they" to do anything. --------------------------------------------------- > > I tend to think that concepts should be regarded as self > (in a manner of speaking). Concepts and self are both > illusory -- they are illusions of something more to > reality than the five khandhas. An ariyan uses illusions > to 'cross the street' but he doesn't believe in them. He > does believe in dhammas, though. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think we truly disagree here. We are not talking about the same things when we use the term 'concept'. -------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > >This class of concepts serves to enable the grasping by > >worldlings of the relational nature of the world, > >wheras pa~n~na is the primary means that arahants > >employ for such understanding. > ---------------- > > I wonder if your personal opinion in favour of the > 'existence' of concepts, is based on a concern that > people might lose their way -- go off the deep end. I > agree it would be wrong for an uninstructed worldling to > profess to know what he clearly doesn't know. We don't > know there is no self and we don't know there are no > concepts. Furthermore, it would give the Dhamma a bad > name were we to go about saying silly things like, "There > is no you, no me; there are no cars, no trucks, no . . " > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: What you say here *is* a consideration for me, but it is not the main point. -------------------------------------------------- > > There are ways of accepting the unreality of concepts > without going off the deep end. It all comes back to > that same old point of controversy: "The Dhamma is a > description of reality, it is not a prescribed course of > action." > > Kind regards, > Ken H > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24484 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:13am Subject: subco Vis. correction 4, and no 5. A Correction in subco, no 4: change after As to the word, half value, this means having half weight: (erase the old one.) and also in the Pali-English: iti-saddo aadiattho, tena paadasaara samasaaraparopaadasaaraadiina.m sa"ngaho. ================= Subco No 5: 5. sa~n~naa hiitiaadi upamaasa.msandana.m. The phrase ³Perception, etc.² this refers to the composing of a simile. sa~n~naa vibhaaga.m akatvaa pi.n.davaseneva aaramma.nassa gaha.nato daarakassa kahaapa.nadassanasadisii vuttaa. Perception is said to be like a child who sees the coin, because it does not make a distinction and it apprehends the object as a mass. tathaa hi saa ``yathaaupa.t.thitavisayapada.t.thaanaa'' vuccati. Therefore it is said of perception ³its proximate cause is whatever object has appeared². vi~n~naa.na.m aaramma.ne ekaccavisesagaha.nasamatthataaya gaamikapurisassa kahaapa.nadassanasadisa.m vutta.m. Consciousness is said to be like the villager who sees the coin, because of its skill of apprehending some distinguishing marks with regard to the object. pa~n~naa aaramma.ne anavasesavisesaavabodhato hera~n~nikassa kahaapa.nadassanasadisii vuttaati da.t.thabba.m. Understanding should be seen as said to be like the moneychanger who sees the coin, because it understands completely the distinguishing marks with regard to the object. ``naanappakaarato jaanana''nti iminaa ~neyyadhammaa pacceka.m naanappakaaraati tesa.m yaathaavato avabodho pa~n~naati dasseti. The phrase, ³by knowing in diverse ways², he explains that by this he knows with regard to the dhamma that is to be understood each single one, and as to the phrase, ³in diverse ways², it means, true knowledge of them, namely, ³understanding². tathaa hi vutta.m ``sabbe dhammaa sabbaakaarena buddhassa bhagavato ~naa.namukhe aapaathamaagacchantii''ti Therefore it is said, ³ All dhammas appear to the sphere of knowledge of the Buddha, the Exalted One.² ***** English: The phrase ³Perception, etc.² this refers to the composing of a simile. Perception is said to be like a child who sees the coin, because it does not make a distinction and it apprehends the object as a mass. Therefore it is said of perception ³its proximate cause is whatever object has appeared². Consciousness is said to be like the villager who sees the coin, because of its skill of apprehending some distinguishing marks with regard to the object. Understanding should be seen as said to be like the moneychanger who sees the coin, because it understands completely the distinguishing marks with regard to the object. The phrase, ³by knowing in diverse ways², he explains that by this he knows with regard to the dhamma that is to be understood each single one, and as to the phrase, ³in diverse ways², it means, true knowledge of them, namely, ³understanding². Therefore it is said, ³ All dhammas appear to the sphere of knowledge of the Buddha, the Exalted One.² ***** Nina. 24485 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:13am Subject: Dhamma Issues, 7: Understanding of Kamma as one's Own. Dhamma Issues, 7: Understanding of Kamma as one's Own. Chapter 7 Understanding of Kamma as one¹s Own. Introduction [1] One may have theoretical understanding of the fact that each person receives the results of the deeds he performed in the past, but this is not the same as the direct realization of this truth. As is explained in this Issue, when paññå has been developed to the degree that stages of insight arise, there is direct understanding of kamma as one¹s own (kammassakatå-ñåna). Insight is developed in different stages (Visuddhimagga Ch XVIII-XXI). The first stage of ³tender insight² is knowing the distinction between the characteristic of nåma and of rúpa. At this stage paññå understands more clearly the nature of nåma and it also understands what kamma is and what vipåka. The second stage is knowing the conditioned nature of nåma and rúpa. At this stage paññå realizes more clearly than at the first stage the nature of kamma and vipåka. Insight develops stage by stage until the process during which enlightenment is attained. Adaptation knowledge, anuloma-ñåna, which arises during the process of the attainment of enlightenment, still has the three general characteristics as object: it knows nåma and rúpa as impermanent, dukkha or anattå. It is succeeded by the change of lineage, gotrabhú, which has nibbåna as object. After that lokuttara cittas arise: path-consciousness, magga-citta, and fruition-consciousness, phala-citta. As we shall see, at each stage of insight kamma and vipåka are directly understood, and as insight develops this understanding becomes clearer. ****** Issue of Analysis: is insight knowledge also understanding of kamma as one's own (kammassakatå-ñåna)? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: insight knowledge includes understanding of kamma as one¹s own. The sources which support this conclusion: 1: The ³Book of Analysis² (Vibhanga, second Book of the Abhidhamma), Ch 16, Analysis of Knowledge, Fourfold Exposition (793-796). 2. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², Commentary to the Book of Analysis, II, Ch 16, Triads. The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: In the ³Book of Analysis² and in the ³Dispeller of Delusion² (2073, 2074, and 2090 etc.), different degrees of insight have been explained: knowledge that kamma is one¹s own, knowledge in conformity with the truth, knowledge of one having the path, the knowledge of one having the fruit 2. The ³Book of Analysis: (793) summarizes with regard to knowledge of kamma as one¹s own, that it is the understanding which comprehends kamma, and the result of kamma, such as, understanding that there is result of giving. This understanding is not yet of the degree of insight which is knowledge in conformity with the truth. Knowledge of kamma as one¹s own has many degrees and thus, it is explained in accordance with these different degrees. When insight is explained as fourfold in this section, it does not mean that these different kinds of insight do not include understanding of kamma as one¹s own. When paññå of the degree of insight knowledge arises, it knows the difference between cause: kusala and akusala, and result: vipåka. Therefore, the person who develops insight has understanding of kamma as one¹s own which is much clearer and firmer than merely theoretical understanding of kamma and its result. At the moments of insight knowledge paññå distinguishes between the different characteristics of realities, and, as subsequent stages of insight knowledge are reached, it realizes their characteristics more clearly, in a more refined way and more deeply. Paññå does not limit itself to only knowing that this is nåma and that rúpa. It must further develop and clearly know the realities of kamma and its result in accordance with their true nature. **** Footnotes: 1.I have written the introduction and added the footnotes. 2. Adaptation knowledge or conformity knowledge, anuloma-ñåna, arises before the ³change of lineage², gotrabhú, during the process when enlightenment is attained. The ³change of lineage² is followed by the lokuttara cittas experiencing nibbåna. Path knowledge refers to paññå accompanying the magga-citta and fruition knowledge refers to paññå accompanying the phala-citta, fruition-consciousness, which is the result of the magga-citta. We read in the ³Dhammasangani², the first Book of the Abhidhamma, Book II, Part II, 1365) that the knowledge of kamma as one¹s own is classified under purity of view (ditthivisuddhi), thus, under insight: ³What is purity in view? Knowledge of the specific nature of kamma; knowledge of the Truths in their due order; the knowledge of him who holds the Path; the knowledge of him who holds the fruit of the Path.² ***** 24486 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:30pm Subject: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hello Jim, Sarah, Victor and all, I think this is a very worthwhile idea and believe the discussion elsewhere provided much food for thought. Jim, I don't think the interest faded - it's like making bread - after combining the ingredients, bread mixture has to be covered and set aside in a warm place to multiply in size. And so with this topic of a deliberative spiritual community of lay hermits or recluses. As I recall - the discussion centred on lay people supporting each other to live a life of seclusion and simplicity for the purpose of dhamma study and practice. This included people staying where they were, and being in communication with a global network of similarly interested buddhists; a rotating use of properties for travel and holidays was suggested; and a strong interest was also expressed in creating an intentional spiritual community by sharing a property (i.e. rural, large, with separate forms of housing) - this led to a discussion of how to ensure an income, safety, support, and enough, but not too much, companionship. I think this topic has merit - as many of us are in the over-40 age bracket - we may find it useful to consider just how we eventually wish to live out our lives, with whom, and how best to support an increasing commitment to study and practice. I wonder what other dsg-ers think? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" Sarah: > > You mentioned your idea before to me of an organisation to support > > solitary dwelling. If you'd like to raise it here to determine any > > interest or support, then I'm sure others would be happy to hear > more. I'm > > wondering also if the idea is related to how you perceive bhavana > (mental > > development)in your life, Jim. Your comments on this thread would be > > interesting.(Pls only respond to this post if you'd care to). > Jim: That idea came up on another list about a month ago and discussed for > a couple of weeks and then it just sort of died. I haven't thought > much more about it since then, but I'm still interested and was > surprised to see you bring it up here, especially after what you were > telling Victor. I think the idea might be of interest to anyone with > the temperament for living a quiet life of seclusion devoted to the > study and practice of the Theravadin teachings. It's still life as a > layperson but it could be a viable alternative to living as an > ordained monk or as a layperson in a hectic world. I think it is just > a matter of interested people coming together to discuss the idea and > how best to go about making such a lifestyle change. > > I think my interest in the solitary life began in my teens while > reading H.D. Thoreau's Walden. I've also been inspired by Milarepa's > story, the writings of Thomas Merton, and my solitary wanderings in > Scotland which included visits to caves that were at one time the > abodes of religious asectics. > > Best wishes, > Jim 24487 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Hi Sarah, > By coincidence,we had notes (off-list) from two of our friends from Sri > Lanka yesterday. It made me wonder if it would be helpful if anyone there > were to check in any 2nd hand book shops in SL for any of the old Pali > grammar texts you need for your work. If so, perhaps you could just reply > here with the titles of the main works you would like and if anyone has > any success in tracking any of them down anytime, they can let you know. Looking for out-of-print Pali books in 2nd hand bookstores could be a time-consuming process, so it may not be such a good idea to ask someone if they could do this voluntarily. Another idea might be to ask if they could try to locate an antiquarian bookseller who may happen to specialize in such books and could help. Some of these antiquarian booksellers do not have stores in the usual way but rather keep their stock at home where you might have to arrange an appointment to see the books. Many countries have associations of antiquarian booksellers where one could obtain a list of their names and addresses. I don't know if SL has one and besides there could be a language barrier for English-speakers in foreign lands. One book I'm interested in getting is the Nyasa on Kaccayana's grammar, but Teng Kee says this work is coming up for reprinting in the next year or so. I'm also interested in acquiring the ganthipada (a kind of tika) on the Patisambhidhamagga commentary which I think can be obtained in Bkk. Perhaps Nina would be interested in a copy too. I'm interested in all kinds of hard-to-get books printed in Pali (grammatical, commentarial, or otherwise) and can be in any script. Perhaps on some of your Asian travels, you could make enquiries, get an address or two, or make a purchase for me if you're certain it's in Pali. But don't ever go out of your way, just if it happens to be convenient and a fun thing to do. :-) .... > > surprised to see you bring it up here, especially after what you were > > telling Victor. > .... > I see a distinction between supporting each other with Dhamma study and > understanding in the various lifestyles (see my post to June in this > regard) and having an idea that one lifestyle 'fits all' or is best for > all. Does that make sense? Sure does. .... > Before you disappear, perhaps you'd care to share more of your ideas and > suggestions that might be helpful for others who willingly or unwillingly > find themselves living alone and removed from social contact, but wishing > to pursue 'study and practice of the Theravadin teachings'. What are the > difficulties and benefits now compared to when you first moved to your > cottage and started living like this? I'm sure you must have considered > ordaining on many occasions. I won't get much into the difficulties and benefits aspect as it would take quite a bit of explaining. I can remember having thoughts about becoming a monk in 1982, but after some consideration I decided that the monastic lifestyle just wasn't for me. Actually, my retreat-in-the-forest living situation began 15 years before the cottage. Just after I returned from my 16 months of wandering on foot in the UK & Iceland in 1972-3, a trailer-retreat suddenly appeared in the forest of my parents' 10 acres. I made good use of this old trailer (given to me by my dad's boss) until 1982 when I sold it in anticipation of the property being sold in 1984. So for the past 30 years except for a 5 yr gap in the 80s I've been very fortunate in having my own retreat. I do not personally know anyone else who lives the way I do so I think my case may be rather unsual in this day and age. Last year, a brother-in-law of a friend of mine had been suffering greatly from a marriage breakdown that ended up in a divorce, losing a good job, and losing most of his hard-earned possessions to his wife and daughter through the court system. He was left facing the prospect of having to live on a small pension or worse having to live on the streets and was quite interested in finding out more about my cheap way of living. But his interest had more to do with economic survival than a unique way of life. He has since succeeded in getting a big disability pension from the insurance company but is continually fighting to keep it, just like the fight to keep his job. If he loses the battle, I could be hearing from him again... The main difficulty I've been having for the past five years is with the extent to which the internet has intruded into my daily life and I've been trying to come up with the best solution and I have to come up with one or I could end up in the hospital or with burned out eyes. It also interferes with my sense of living a quiet life of seclusion which I really need, this is not what I had in mind when I first moved here. I need to find out if the temporary phone disconnection helps. I'll let you know what it was like when I come back online. If it turns out to be beneficial, I'll have to consider doing it regularly. Just need to find the right balance, no need to give up the internet contacts altogether. > Is there anything else you'd like to mention about your idea of mutual > support? When I was thinking about the idea a few weeks ago, it led me to thinking about some larger social issues and how a Theravada society might function within a larger Western society. The Theravada society could be wide enough to include everyone from all walks of life, including hermits in the forest. I'm sure there is so much more to write about on this topic. Best wishes, Jim 24488 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:03pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Dear Chris: Chris: "I think this is a very worthwhile idea and believe > the discussion > elsewhere provided much food for thought. Jim, I > don't think the > interest faded - it's like making bread - after > combining the > ingredients, bread mixture has to be covered and set > aside in a warm > place to multiply in size. And so with this topic > of a deliberative > spiritual community of lay hermits or recluses. As > I recall - the > discussion centred on lay people supporting each > other to live a > life of seclusion and simplicity for the purpose of > dhamma study and > practice." ----------------------------------------------------- Dear Chris, you will find around the world many enterprises with the same aims: Findhorn at Scotland (new age and natural living), Church of Earth (Gurdjieff´s disciples) and even here where I live - Brazil - there were many supporters of these ideas, like the passed music and Composer Raul Seixas. "Viva...Viva... Viva a Sociedade Alternativa!" Some of these initiatives still survive, but most of them disappeared with time. And why ? The source of all this lies inside the human mind! --------------------------------------------------- Chris: "This included people staying where they > were, and being in > communication with a global network of similarly > interested > buddhists; a rotating use of properties for travel > and holidays was > suggested; and a strong interest was also > expressed in creating an > intentional spiritual community by sharing a > property (i.e. rural, > large, with separate forms of housing) - this led to > a discussion of > how to ensure an income, safety, support, and > enough, but not too > much, companionship. > I think this topic has merit - as many of us are in > the over-40 age > bracket - we may find it useful to consider just > how we eventually > wish to live out our lives, with whom, and how best > to support an > increasing commitment to study and practice." ----------------------------------------------------- Meritous as it seems to be, this concept of a platonic "Republic" of goodwilled persons, linked together by the internet or otherwise, living with the same aims and interests, respecting the line traced by everyone´s individuality, perhaps must overtake so many obstacles: without keeping a buddhistic commonplace, everyone will have to deal with Lobha, Dosa and Moha, bad vedanas, bad Kamma and its akusala vipakas, etc. Here in Brazil I can remember such initiative carried away many years ago by the Swamy Sevananda, Mr. Binot and others. It failed off, with bitter strifes between the "members" at the last end. That´s the real motivation of my "off topic" question to Nina about laypersons Guilds, brotherhoods , etc, at Thailand and Sri Lanka. Taking the Bhikkhus´ vows is a very hard attainment for everyone... Keep boostin´ Chris! Perhaps someday these ideals - nurtured on with good minds and good wills - will blossom at something very, very beautiful and meritorious to the real path! ----------------------------------------------------- Chris: "I wonder what other dsg-ers think?" ---------------------------------------------------- For sure you have got my own viewpoint about it! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24489 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Hi Jim! Jim: " One book I'm > interested in getting is the Nyasa on Kaccayana's > grammar, but Teng > Kee says this work is coming up for reprinting in > the next year or so. > I'm also interested in acquiring the ganthipada (a > kind of tika) on > the Patisambhidhamagga commentary which I think can > be obtained in > Bkk. Perhaps Nina would be interested in a copy too. > I'm interested in > all kinds of hard-to-get books printed in Pali > (grammatical, > commentarial, or otherwise) and can be in any > script. Perhaps on some > of your Asian travels, you could make enquiries, get > an address or > two, or make a purchase for me if you're certain > it's in Pali. But > don't ever go out of your way, just if it happens to > be convenient and > a fun thing to do. :-)" ---------------------------------------------------- Hey !!!! I´m on it !!!! Spare room at the table for me !!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------- Jim: " I've been trying to come up with the best solution > and I have to come > up with one or I could end up in the hospital or > with burned out eyes." ---------------------------------------------------- Heheheh!!! Me too !!!! ------------------------------------------------------ Jim: " When I was thinking about the idea a few weeks ago, > it led me to > thinking about some larger social issues and how a > Theravada society > might function within a larger Western society. The > Theravada society > could be wide enough to include everyone from all > walks of life, > including hermits in the forest. I'm sure there is > so much more to > write about on this topic." ----------------------------------------------------- Nina could get more details about this matter of Theravada Societies...ops! Off Topic !!!!! Good Luck! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Best wishes, > Jim === message truncated === ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24490 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:00pm Subject: Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Sarah, you wrote in a past post (Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendship): > "I still recall how hard it was for me to give up life in a tiny > bare cell (with no electricity) in the forest in Sri Lanka to > return to England and try to help my family during a difficult > time." I don't mean to intrude, but I was wondering if you can share some of your experiences with us that you had in Sri Lanka ? I very often contemplate selling all of my possessions, quitting my job and taking off to a Theravada Buddhist dominated country such as Thailand or Sri Lanka to live a life of contemplation. I am not certain if you went there to live a life of solitude and contemplation, but if you did, I thought it would also be relevant to the ongoing discussion (on solitude) and would be helpful to those like me contemplating doing this. with metta, nori 24491 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:31am Subject: Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers Note: Sorry Sarah it took so long to rework this update and submit it but I have been visiting the Pyramids, the Egyptian Museum, and traveling to the Red Sea. My arrival to Cairo was pretty much what I expected: chaotic. The airport was crowded and hot and one of my large cargo suitcases didn't arrive. After filling out a report for the airport, which required assistance from the public relations director associated with the school, we were off for the apartment. But the bus driver, who had to circle the airport several times while getting this done, is a very daring driver. At one point he had missed the turn to go back around the airport so he stopped in the middle of the road and proceeded to backup the bus, even while there was oncoming traffic! I guess such wild driving is the thing in Cairo; it must have been because the police didn't immediately swoop down on us, as would have happened in the US. I hope my other cargo container wasn't lost; the airport is supposed to call and have it delivered when it arrives. It will be interesting to see if that happens. On the way to the apartment building, Lucille told me about the buildings 'landlord'; I was not pleased to hear of this situation. The landlord and his wife and their three children live underneath the apartment building; now when I say underneath I don't mean in the basement. I mean that there is an empty space underneath the building that doesn't have walls, the building is supported by columns, and has nothing but a dirt floor and that is where this family lives. There are several empty apartments in this building but they aren't allowed to live in any of them; not only that, there is a laundry room in the building with two washers and two dryers but they cannot use those either, the wife washes all of the clothes by hand, outside. Surprisingly, they do not have a dirty appearance, even though they live in a 'cave' practically, which I am not sure how they manage. The husband is very professional. He makes sure that everything is working in the apartment and takes care of problems. The owner of the building gives them some kind of salary but it isn't much so I was encouraged to tip them a little bit, like one pound (18 cents American) whenever they help me carry things up to my apartment, etc. The landlady, I was told, will also clean my apartment weekly, or bi-weekly if I choose, for about 15 to 20 pounds (about $3.00 American). Of course I will probably do that…in the US I paid a housekeeper $70.00 each time she cleaned…this kind of thing will take some getting used to. According to Buddhism, such things are the result of kamma: ""Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the condition, why inferiority and superiority are met with among human beings, among mankind? For one meets with short-lived and long-lived people, sick and healthy people, ugly and beautiful people, insignificant and influential people, poor and rich people, low-born and high-born people, stupid and wise people. What is the reason, what is the condition, why superiority and inferiority are met with among human beings, among mankind?" 3. "Student, beings are owners of kammas, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings according to inferiority and superiority." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn135a.html Following this train of thought, being a white, male, educated, citizen of the United States (the most powerful country in the world), I must have fantastic karma. Do I feel that I deserve it? Not really. I just feel that I have been incredibly lucky, but according to the Buddha that isn't the case at all. I don't know what I feel about this but being here in Cairo, the land of the incredibly rich and the incredibly poor, I will have more opportunity to explore this matter. 24492 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers Hello james! James: " Note: Sorry Sarah it took so long to rework this > update and submit it > but I have been visiting the Pyramids, the Egyptian > Museum, and > traveling to the Red Sea." ----------------------------------------------------- Dhamma´s Diary Chapter 1 !!! I. JAMES´ LANKAVATARA (ops! It´s Egypt, not Sri Lanka) (Mettaya, Ícaro) ---------------------------------------------------- > > My arrival to Cairo was pretty much what I expected: > chaotic. The > airport was crowded and hot and one of my large > cargo suitcases > didn't arrive. After filling out a report for the > airport, which > required assistance from the public relations > director associated > with the school, we were off for the apartment. But > the bus driver, > who had to circle the airport several times while > getting this done, > is a very daring driver. At one point he had missed > the turn to go > back around the airport so he stopped in the middle > of the road and > proceeded to backup the bus, even while there was > oncoming traffic! > I guess such wild driving is the thing in Cairo; it > must have been > because the police didn't immediately swoop down on > us, as would have > happened in the US. I hope my other cargo container > wasn't lost; the > airport is supposed to call and have it delivered > when it arrives. > It will be interesting to see if that happens. > > On the way to the apartment building, Lucille told > me about the > buildings 'landlord'; I was not pleased to hear of > this situation. > The landlord and his wife and their three children > live underneath > the apartment building; now when I say underneath I > don't mean in the > basement. I mean that there is an empty space > underneath the > building that doesn't have walls, the building is > supported by > columns, and has nothing but a dirt floor and that > is where this > family lives. There are several empty apartments in > this building > but they aren't allowed to live in any of them; not > only that, there > is a laundry room in the building with two washers > and two dryers but > they cannot use those either, the wife washes all of > the clothes by > hand, outside. Surprisingly, they do not have a > dirty appearance, > even though they live in a 'cave' practically, which > I am not sure > how they manage. The husband is very professional. > He makes sure > that everything is working in the apartment and > takes care of > problems. The owner of the building gives them some > kind of salary > but it isn't much so I was encouraged to tip them a > little bit, like > one pound (18 cents American) whenever they help me > carry things up > to my apartment, etc. The landlady, I was told, > will also clean my > apartment weekly, or bi-weekly if I choose, for > about 15 to 20 pounds > (about $3.00 American). Of course I will probably > do that…in the US > I paid a housekeeper $70.00 each time she > cleaned…this kind of thing > will take some getting used to. > > According to Buddhism, such things are the result of > kamma: > > ""Master Gotama, what is the reason, what is the > condition, why > inferiority and superiority are met with among human > beings, among > mankind? For one meets with short-lived and > long-lived people, sick > and healthy people, ugly and beautiful people, > insignificant and > influential people, poor and rich people, low-born > and high-born > people, stupid and wise people. What is the reason, > what is the > condition, why superiority and inferiority are met > with among human > beings, among mankind?" > 3. "Student, beings are owners of kammas, heirs of > kammas, they have > kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, > kammas as their > homing-place. It is kammas that differentiate beings > according to > inferiority and superiority." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn135a.html > > Following this train of thought, being a white, > male, educated, > citizen of the United States (the most powerful > country in the > world), I must have fantastic karma. Do I feel that > I deserve it? > Not really. I just feel that I have been incredibly > lucky, but > according to the Buddha that isn't the case at all. > I don't know > what I feel about this but being here in Cairo, the > land of the > incredibly rich and the incredibly poor, I will have > more opportunity > to explore this matter. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24493 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:12am Subject: Greetings All Dear Friends, Please accept my heartfelt metta to you all. Sarah ordered me to inform the members about my whereabouts , so in case the InterPol wants me ,DSG can tip them right away. :o) I was asked to come back to USA on an assignment in the the beginning of this year and was living in Boston since then. Will be here until sometime next year. I have been behaving well , without accumulating papa kamma, but there have been some akusala kamma. My plan is to go beyond the break-even ,.. but as you know , one has to be very very patient. Although I have remained silent on DSG, I have been frequently reading the posts and thoughts with great interest. Hope all your merits have been treating you well. May they get all the favourable conditions to get realised. May you get all the courage to face your demerits. Rgds, gayan 24494 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Hi Gayan, Really great to hear from you. I've often wondered what had become of you as things seemed to be improving in SL. I found your old posts on the va~ncakas priceless--learning to recognize the prevalence and subtlety of akusala is not only invaluable in itself, it also points up the indispensibility of detailed understanding (hence abhidhamma) to practice. Welcome back! I hope we can look forward to hearing more from you. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gayan Karunaratne To: Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 6:12 AM Subject: [dsg] Greetings All > Dear Friends, > > Please accept my heartfelt metta to you all. > > Sarah ordered me to inform the members about my whereabouts , so in case the > InterPol wants me, DSG can tip them right away. > :o) > > I was asked to come back to USA on an assignment in the the beginning of > this year and was living in Boston since then. Will be here until sometime > next year. > I have been behaving well , without accumulating papa kamma, but there have > been some akusala kamma. Glad to hear you've avoided the paapa-- > My plan is to go beyond the break-even ,.. but as you know , one has to be > very very patient. No choice! Slow going with or without it--so much more pleasant with patience. > Although I have remained silent on DSG, I have been frequently reading the > posts and thoughts with great interest. > > Hope all your merits have been treating you well. May they get all the > favourable conditions to get realised. > May you get all the courage to face your demerits. Thanks! Keep in touch, eh? mike p.s. I'll notify 'Homeland Security' of your whereabouts. 24495 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Nina, > Dear Jim, > Thank you very much for your corrections. I shall explain to Larry to put > them in. > I respect your decision, I understand. Lodewijk sympathizes warmly with you > that you want to cut off telephone and radio, news is so bad. > When in Dec may I write to you again? I ask this, because Yong Peng has his > examinations in Nov. and only in Dec he may start a new sutta. He mentioned > Elephant's footprint, but I have to ask him again. I depend so much on you > for my texts on line. From where do you download co and subco? Maybe > difficult for me. As I mentioned to Sarah, I should be back online around Christmas time. If that is too late for you, I'd be glad to supply you with the texts you need before I go offline in late September. Just let me know what you need. The source for the texts is the CSCD disk but these have to be converted to the Velthuis scheme. Being a Mac user you might be able to copy and paste the texts from tipitaka.org and then do a "replace all" for each of the special Pali characters as I explained to Sarah in an earlier message. > Which day in Sept do you turn the lights off? The lights stay on! I'm only disconnecting the phone line and putting the radio out of reach, as if I'm severing some worldly ties here, eh? I have to take such action because I simply don't have enough will power to resist the temptation to check on the email and the news, like someone trying to give up smoking and knowing that there are plenty of cigarettes in the house. The disconnection will also allow me more time to do some much needed work around the property and reconnect with my immediate surroundings. I feel like > an orphan, quite a blow to us and the Pali list. You are the most able and > inspiring teacher I know, and I always appreciate your help. To whom else > could I turn? And now no more Kaccayaana! It's unfortunate that there are so few around who are willing and able to help with the difficulties of Pali. I had to learn Pali mostly on my own and there was never anyone I could turn to for help, except for a short period in 1980 while studying with one of Warder's students. Wouldn't the Foundation be a good resource to turn to? I've heard that there are a number of Pali experts there, including K. Supee. And what about K. Suporn? The study of Kaccayana can resume at a later time. That stopped because of the Vism. project. I'm afraid I'm not very good at multi-tasking. I seem to do best just focussing on one project or discussion thread at a time and if there are a number of them to deal with all at once, I just seem to go into gridlock not knowing what to do next. > I do not feel good about it that I may have many mistakes in Co Rahula. > Nobody else can or will correct me on Pali list. Would you please, before > going away, indicate to me where the mistakes are, so that I can correct > those. Yong Peng wants to put my texts on his net and it would be better > without coarse mistakes at least. I always check my text with the Thai as > best as I am able to. Given the voluminous translation work that you've done so far regarding MN 62, I'm afraid that checking for mistakes will involve an enormous amount of time and I already have enough on my plate as it is. The MN 62 project is one that I didn't get involved with right from the start and for me to check your work I'd first have to spend a great deal of time just getting familiar with all the Pali material. As you have the Thai translation of the co., at least you can check with that. Don't take it that, just because no one has pointed out any mistakes, there aren't any. [...] > Just one question on Saddaniti, at the end. I completed "Meanings of > dhamma". The word : > Since the teachers of the commentary have thus demonstrated that the > occurence of the word dhamma as subject is manifold, > > tattha tattha pana aadisaddena yuttivisayaadayo ca atthaa gahetabbaa. > and when one has taken up the application of these subjects, beginning with > the word as used in various texts, the meanings (of the word dhamma) should > be comprehended. > I'm not too clear on these passages. What I'm seeing in the last one is: 'but with the word 'aadi' here and there the meanings of application, subject, and so one are to be taken.' I'm a little puzzled about the function of the 'ca'. The first passage is even more difficult to interpret. > But Canadian winter starts really end Dec. but autumn is earlier now. > Thank you very much and I hope you have a good hibernation; yes, you have it > every year. The simple life, no fringes. > Nina. A Canadian winter usually sets in by Dec and it can be earlier or later in the month. The snow can come as early as October but doesn't usually stay very long. Best wishes, Jim 24496 From: crystalmelodyhaven Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:40am Subject: generosity I were likely to give, as for one doves wing. Blindy i did not even see what was done. A dove doesn't fly without two wings, but as generosity is seen, as what it gives, and what arises. Two wings will spread and the dove will be complete. 24497 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Systematic Study of Dhamma Dear Manu, I am so glad you are interested in Abhidhamma, I always rejoice when people have this interest. If you have questions or remarks, it is good to exchange views for all of us. Perhaps we meet in Bgk, welcome to this list and chook di. Nina. op 22-08-2003 07:39 schreef Manu Wadhwani op lachmis@l...: > I visited him at his shop. At that time he gave me a copy of Khun Nina's " > Abhidhamma in Daily Life". 24498 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Dear Sukin, you expressed your views on concepts very well, and I know you would. I hope to receive more often your sympathetic posts, and this one was a condition for Mike to write so well about the three phases. We need to be reminded often: pariyatti, patipatti and pativeda. With appreciation, Nina. op 22-08-2003 07:10 schreef Sukinderpal op sukin@k...: we begin to differentiate, at least > in theory, between > conventional realties and actual phenomena. And we still function > largely with a deluded > mind, but sometimes there can be sati, and one learns a little more > about this distinction. 24499 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] three phases. Hi Mike, excellent reminder, Nina. op 22-08-2003 14:40 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > I think all us puthujjanas are in the same boat. These concepts all start > out as just that, concepts, but they are essential, this is pariyatti. When > enough understanding of them has accumulated it can condition a moment of > insight into present reality, this is pa.tipatti. Then insight can > condition pa.tivedha, liberation. But it all has to begin with these > concepts, I think. This is the way I see it, anyway-- 24500 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kusala kamma continues samsara Dear Mike and Sarah, op 22-08-2003 14:48 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the excellent quote from the Samohavinodanii! I can never be > reminded to often that even kusala kamma only continues sa.msaara. N: I shall just quote from my : N: I can add: jhana is great kusala, it is praised by the Buddha, but in itself it is not the right practice leading out of the cycle. Nina. 24501 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] lotus sutta Dear Icaro, I am glad to hear about the Lotus Sutta that means so much to you and others. I heard about it when traveling in Asia, and was always wondering. Thank you. You downloaded even the whole of the Patthana Book, and are you reading it all in Pali? I have the PTS transl of part of it, and also Guide to Conditional Relations, U Narada. A useful guide, but the common conditions, in numbers are tough! I worked some out, then I found them too difficult. Also the negative ones: not-kamma, not-repetition, etc. very complicated. Nina. op 22-08-2003 11:52 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > What Could I say about the Lotus Sutta ? ... Well, the Lotus Sutta do > it, and more! It?s a real inspiration for all serious > readers of Mahayana Buddhism 24502 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] lotus sutta Dear Nina: "You downloaded even the whole of the Patthana Book, > and are you reading it > all in Pali? " ------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina: By the means of a software called "Webcopier", I could download ALL the content of the www.tipitaka.org. Ah! The entire Pali Tipitaka!! Vinaya, Suttas and Abhidhamma ( plus the Añña, or commentaries) !!! This music is food for me !!!! At the www.tipitaka.org the Patthanapali is complete at five volumes. You see, Nina, before that I would only to read a ASCII version of Abhidhamma I got here - a terrible one, without unicode fonts and so on. As you can guess, I am dancing around with merry because the www.tipitaka.org texts are in a good set of pali fonts, easily readable , well ordered and...COMPLETE!!!! ------------------------------------------------------ Nina: "I have the PTS transl of part of it, and also Guide > to Conditional > Relations, U Narada. A useful guide, but the common > conditions, in numbers > are tough! I worked some out, then I found them too > difficult. Also the > negative ones: not-kamma, not-repetition, etc. very > complicated." --------------------------------------------------- Don´t fret, Nina! By my side, I am using again the Webcopier to download all the Pali-English Dictionary online of PTS. And after that, Shinran´s works! If I find a De Luxe version of Lotus Sutta, I will grab it with my gadgets!!! HEHEHEHEH!!!!!!!! I can recommend you to take a look on www.tipitaka.org. It´s worthy material. I´ve got also many material I picked up on Internet - books online and so on that I will read at the future! Mettaya, Ícaro > > What Could I say about the Lotus Sutta ? ... Well, > the Lotus Sutta do > > it, and more! It?s a real inspiration for all > serious > > readers of Mahayana Buddhism ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24503 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, Apa kabar. Yes, I learnt Bahasa when we lived there for three and a half years. But now I forgot most, no opportunity to keep it up. I love that language, and the country, the people. I felt so at home, like with a family. If you want to contact the Bogor group, Selamet Rodjali, I can give you info off line. I am enjoying your nice and sympathetic posts, Nina. op 22-08-2003 07:59 schreef eaglenarius op eaglenarius@c...: Now I keep on learning > buddhist teachings, and try to practice it. > By the way, are you speaking Indonesian, since you mention the dharma group > Bogor ? 24504 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles Dear Jim, op 23-08-2003 17:19 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y... > > As I mentioned to Sarah, I should be back online around Christmas > time. If that is too late for you, I'd be glad to supply you with the > texts you need before I go offline in late September. N: Thank you for your offer and tips about download, I try. Yong Peng wants to ask others first about the new sutta, and there may not be any hurry. J: Wouldn't the Foundation be a good resource to turn to? I've heard that > there are a number of Pali experts there, including K. Supee. And what > about K. Suporn? N: K. Supee does not know English but Kom could write to him.. Yes, it is all right Jim, I understand that correcting me would be too much. Thank you for all your help, and I wish you a good, quiet time, Nina. 24505 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers Dear James, I liked this very much, also with the added sutta. Looking forward to more. I also liked the Pyramids and museum, I was with A. Sujin and a Thai group. A. Sujin explained satipatthana while we were walking along pyramids. Thank you, Nina. op 23-08-2003 10:31 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > but I have been visiting the Pyramids, the Egyptian Museum, and > traveling to the Red Sea. 24506 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Dear Gayan, op 23-08-2003 15:12 schreef Gayan Karunaratne op gkarunaratne@v...: > May you get all the courage to face your demerits. > N: So pleased to hear from you. I like the last wish. We have to know our akusala, not ignore it. Good reminder. So many moments of selfishness pass unnoticed. As Mike said,< learning to recognize the prevalence and subtlety of akusala is not only invaluable in itself, it also points up the indispensibility of detailed understanding (hence abhidhamma) to practice.> I hope to hear from you again, Nina. 24507 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:59pm Subject: side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, > I follow the Buddha's teaching. I throw out > positions diametrical to it. ------------------ Yes, of course. Actually, my inept comments were an unnecessary distraction from this Vism thread. Every step along the way to intellectual understanding is, it seems to me, marked by the sudden redundancy of old opinions. It then becomes an absolute pleasure to throw those old opinions out -- no matter how much we had liked them. (The bigger the better.) I was daring to suggest that you might be hanging on to some redundant opinions. If the Abhidhamma and commentaries say that no concepts are real in the way that dhammas are real, then why be inclined to think otherwise? If, [to dredge up another example], they say that rupa arammana are inherently pleasant or unpleasant then, again, why be inclined to think otherwise? I was trying to suggest this in a kusala way but I suspect my self-opinionated personality was showing through :-) So please, don't mind me; we all have our own ways of progressing and yours are serving perfectly well. Kind regards, Ken H 24508 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impediments (I) Nina Thanks for coming in on this. An area with lots to discuss. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, ... N: Dwelling, relatives, traveling, all this are characteristics of a busy life, where one is involved with people, it prevents one from leading a solitary life which is so necessary to concentrate on the meditation subject of samatha. The last one refers to supernormal powers. J: Thanks for pointing out the common element of involvement with people and a busy lifestyle (apart from the last one). I see that Vis IV, 2 elaborates further, giving no less that 18 faults of a monastery (largeness, newness, nearness to a road, famousness, etc) any 1 of which render it unsuitable. As a further refinement, at IV, 19 there are 5 'required' factors for a monastery to be considered favourable. Then there are the so-called lesser impediments (long hair etc) that also need to be severed (Vis IV, 20). We can see just how particular the conditions must be for the development of samatha. Even the successful severing of these impediments apparently may not be enough to see one all the way, as it were. IV, 35 gives a further set of 7 stipulations regarding abode, speech etc. that may be needed to guard the counterpart sign once obtained. No room here for the 'urban jhana' views that seem to be widely held today! More on the rest of your post (the 10th impediment) in a separate post. Jon PS In Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' the list is given as follows: <<< palibodha: 'obstacles' The term for the following things if they obstruct the monk in the strict practice of a subject of meditation: a crowded monastery, travelling, relatives, association with lay folk, gifts, pupils, repairs in the monastery, sickness, study, magical power. The latter, however, may become an obstacle only in developing insight. >>> 24509 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 0:40am Subject: Next weekend is nearly here Hey KenH (Steve, Andrew, Azita), and all, As the next Cooran weekend is rapidly approaching, and as the theme this time is Dhamma in Daily Life, I hope you are all well advanced in your plan to present your own stimulating paper or lead robust discussions on a riveting article around this theme. Yes? I await with trepidation Andrew's temperature forecast and news of the lurking black bull. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 24510 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impediments (II) Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, ... N: [regarding the last of the 10 impediments, the supernormal powers] We read: (III, 56): J: I can see why the supernormal powers are not an impediment for concentration (i.e., because it is through concentration that they are obtained), but I do not recall why they are said to be an impediment for insight. Is it because of subtle attachment to them, causing the person to be distracted from the goal of penetrating the characteristic of dhammas (conditioned phenomena)? I usually think of ignorance or wrong view as being the only true obstacles to the development of insight. N: Studying the impediments helps us to understand the difference between the way of development of insight and of samatha. Why are the first nine impediments not impediments for insight? One's house, social contacts and work are no impediments for insight, because the development of insight is the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doors. They are sabhaava dhammas, they each have their own characteristic that appear. J: Good reminders, Nina. There is nothing about our daily life that need impede the development of insight, even though we may have thoughts to that effect from time to time. That kind of thinking can be recognised for what it is -- just thinking (conditioned by wrong view, no doubt). N: For samatha a certain method is to be applied, but the method for vipassana is no method. The Buddha said to the monks: here are the roots of the trees, but we should remember to whom he was speaking. The monk is supposed not to indulge in social contacts. Several of them had the skill to develop both jhana and vipassana, thus, that is a different matter. Dhammas appear already because of their own conditions in their own time. J: Yes, the roots of trees are an appropriate place for monks to spend their 'spare' time; better there than in a crowded temple, for example. And monks were admonished to develop samatha to the level of jhana (in addition to vipassana, and even those who had already attained enlightenment), since their lifestyle is well suited to that, assuming as you say the necessary foundation of suitable accumulated tendencies in the first place. As to a certain method for samatha, I think this can be so as regards the concentration aspect, but not the kusala/tranquillity aspect (if you see what I mean). N: If awareness does not arise often (and this is common), the reason is that we still have not quite understood what the object of awareness is: any nama or rupa appearing now. We believe we have understood this, but in reality we have not. We have to listen again, reflect again. Moreover: the perfections have not been accumulated sufficiently, they are still defective, or some perfections have been neglected. J: Yes. First comes the understanding at an intellectual level of the connection between *awareness of the nama or rupa appearing now* and *attainment to the path*. I think this step is perhaps the biggest hurdle to surmount; I know that in my own case it was a long time before I really felt comfortable about the idea of awareness of the presently appearing nama or rupa being 'all there is to it', or at least as much as was needed for a person of my (very limited) level of understanding. I remember raising questions about this time and again over the years, looking for other connections as well, thinking that there must also be a central role for samatha, monk's life, etc here, especially given the many references to these aspects in the teachings. But in the end it always came back to the same thing, and the conclusion that while samatha and the rest are certainly part of the overall picture, they are not central to the Buddha's message in the way that satipatthana and vipassana are. Thanks again for the comments. Jon 24511 From: sese2k3 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:45am Subject: Meaning of Ayya Dear all friends, I've joined this group for several weeks ago. But I am not the active one.Now let me introduce myself once more. My name is Sese. I am from Jakarta, Indonesia. Now, I've worked at a newspaper company for 2 years. My knowledge about Buddhism is average, although several years ago I have joined a temporary Silacarini program for about two weeks in Mendut Monastery, Indonesia. I've heard someone who called Ayya Khema. But I'm not really know is "Ayya" a Bhikkhuni? I hope someone can explain it to me. And also I'd rather confuse whether Theravada still has a Bhikkhuni-Sangha or not. Thank you very much for your attention. with Metta, Sese 24512 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/24/03 2:03:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > >I follow the Buddha's teaching. I throw out > >positions diametrical to it. > ------------------ > > Yes, of course. Actually, my inept comments were an > unnecessary distraction from this Vism thread. > > Every step along the way to intellectual understanding > is, it seems to me, marked by the sudden redundancy of > old opinions. It then becomes an absolute pleasure to > throw those old opinions out -- no matter how much we had > liked them. (The bigger the better.) > > I was daring to suggest that you might be hanging on to > some redundant opinions. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not so daring. ;-)) Of *course* I might be doing that. I definitely have opinions - about many things,and some I am quite certain about. What I *can* say is that I probably have 100% certainty with regard to almost none of them. One thing, though - I do not abrogate the responsibility of deciding, albeit always tentatively. Generally speaking, I accept with little questioning, but with constant consideration for purposes of understanding, what appears to have come directly from the Buddha. I truly do not know whether this includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka or not, and I hope for the day that an English translation of the Dhammasanghani and Patthana are available for my direct perusal. At this point, I have to depend on synopses, commentaries (mostly reports of commentaries), and characterizations, some of which material rings true to me and some of which, from my observation, contradicts basic teachings given in the Sutta Pitaka. In particular, the tilakkhana are sacrosanct to me. As I wrote before, I understand it as basic teaching that nibbana is the only unconditioned dhamma, that it is sukkha (in the sense of not dukkha), and that *all* other dhammas are sankhata and partake of all the tilakkhana. Trees and cars etc, etc ultimately are fictions. They are the merely conventional, actually nonexistent, intended referents of oft repeated thoughts (concepts and percepts). In truth, from the ultimate perspective, they neither arise nor cease, making them sound like asankhata dhammas similar to nibbana; but the reason for their nonarising and nonceasing is different from that for nibbana - these *do not even exist* except by convention, whereas nibbana is an existent. Thus, except in a derivative sense that requires further explanation, trees and cars etc are not impermanent. Nor are they permanent. They are just plain NOT - except in a manner of speaking. If it is such non-things that one means by 'concepts', then, as I have said before, I would agree that they are not impermanent, but only in the sense that making (nonexistential) assertions and denials about nonexistent things is a pointless process. But if 'concept' means "thought", which is my meaning of that word, then concepts are conditioned mind-door objects, and are not special except for their usefulness and their perils. ---------------------------------------------------- > If the Abhidhamma and > > commentaries say that no concepts are real in the way > that dhammas are real, then why be inclined to think > otherwise? If, [to dredge up another example], they say > that rupa arammana are inherently pleasant or unpleasant > then, again, why be inclined to think otherwise? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, I do not believe that what a microbe or a hungry ghost will find pleasant/unpleasant is the same as what a human finds pleasant/unpleasant. Relative to the human condition, I do not doubt that certain sensory inputs are universally pleasant and some universally unpleasant, but that some are not. To me this is fairly obvious. If I'm incorrect, so what? This issue is a very small one, of little import. As far as commentaries are concerned, well, they are there to be perused, considered, and appreciated, but not to be put at the same level as the word of the Buddha. ------------------------------------------------------- > > I was trying to suggest this in a kusala way but I > suspect my self-opinionated personality was showing > through :-) So please, don't mind me; we all have our > own ways of progressing and yours are serving perfectly > well. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I appreciate our conversations and learn from them, and I very much appreciate your good will. We both muddlealong as well as we can. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24513 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Dear Howard: Howard: " I > truly do not know whether this > includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka or not, and I hope > for the day that an English > translation of the Dhammasanghani and Patthana are > available for my direct > perusal." ----------------------------------------------- Uphilled Upasaka... AHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!! That´s such a dream!!!! Unfortunately I never read the monumental T.W. Rhys-Davies´translation of Dhammasangani - I would like to! With time and patience someday we´ll get on the best booksellers´ shelves a paperbook or hardbound version of The Abhidhamma!!! As one could say, with more translators, more resources, more specialized printers and more readers even you will get a bigger accumulation of good karma and, by consequence, more books on Abhidhamma to buy! ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: "At this point, I have to depend on > synopses, commentaries (mostly reports > of commentaries), and characterizations, some of > which material rings true to > me and some of which, from my observation, > contradicts basic teachings given > in the Sutta Pitaka. In particular, the tilakkhana > are sacrosanct to me. As I > wrote before, I understand it as basic teaching that > nibbana is the only > unconditioned dhamma, that it is sukkha (in the > sense of not dukkha)," ----------------------------------------------------- Bullseye, Uprighted Upasaka! As I see it, there´s sometimes a shocking difference between the simpliciry of the Pali language poured down on all Abhidhamma and the exquisite, even strange Pali´s on commentaries like the Visuddhimagga... and the Visuddhimagga Mahatika !!!!! As is written in the Dhammasangani , Nibbana is a ahetu dhamma... undoubtfully!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: " and that > *all* other dhammas are sankhata and partake of all > the tilakkhana. Trees and cars > etc, etc ultimately are fictions. They are the > merely conventional, actually > nonexistent, intended referents of oft repeated > thoughts (concepts and > percepts). In truth, from the ultimate perspective, > they neither arise nor cease, > making them sound like asankhata dhammas similar to > nibbana; but the reason for > their nonarising and nonceasing is different from > that for nibbana - these *do > not even exist* except by convention, whereas > nibbana is an existent." ----------------------------------------------------- From Dhammasangani to Patthanapali in one single ecartée: trees, cars, byclcles, Abhidhamma books, etc, are Aramanapaccayo - object-conditioned mind stuff. My question: is the Hetupaccayo - root condition mind stuff - the substratum of these aramanapaccayo, as a 3D object is the source of a 2D image ? Or are they partake of different definitions ? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: " Ken, I do not believe that what a microbe or > a hungry ghost will find > pleasant/unpleasant is the same as what a human > finds pleasant/unpleasant. > Relative to the human condition, I do not doubt that > certain sensory inputs are > universally pleasant and some universally > unpleasant, but that some are not. To > me this is fairly obvious. If I'm incorrect, so > what? This issue is a very > small one, of little import." ---------------------------------------------------- All human affairs ( call they sensorial inputs or otherwise, this could be irrelevant) can be classified as kusala, akusala... or Abhyakata. They can be weighted on by our own accumulations (karma included) - for example: there is an biological evolution from the amoeba to human being (very different creatures as you can see!)...but who are guarantying this ? The human being, and not the amoeba!!! Could it be otherwise ? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: "As far as commentaries > are concerned, well, they > are there to be perused, considered, and > appreciated, but not to be put at the > same level as the word of the Buddha." > ----------------------------------------------------- Don´t you worry about it, Uplifted Upasaka! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24514 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers Dear Nina: Nina: " A. Sujin explained > satipatthana while we were > walking along pyramids." ---------------------------------------------------- WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (well...what could I say ?) --------------------------------------------------- Nina: " but I have been visiting the Pyramids, the > Egyptian Museum, and > > traveling to the Red Sea." ------------------------------------------------- Nothing is perfect!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24515 From: Elias Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:48am Subject: Presence All, Many times have i investigated thus reflected, and many times have results occured. What has arisen as wisdom? No objects exist as theirself or as many have arised as wisdom. There is no lightness without darkness, there is no darkness without lightness has arised as wisdom. Things exist not as in theirself or as many, such falseness the mind dwells in, even so the mind cannot be of nature outside illusion has arised as wisdom. There is no past, no future and no presence hsa arised as wisdom. This are few thigns that have arised as wisdom, also have arised a question to the way of wisdom, what questions has arised, this question has arised. If there cannot be a precense because presencse wouldn't be exist, moreover causes and effect of truth emptiness of reality, how is then one be mindfull in the precense, would not the mind then be illusiv if it's trying to be mindfull in the presence? Is this benefit for wisdom, or is it only benefit for the arising of mindfullness and concentration? /Elias Ps. I've read if it's true i do not know, that theravada strives for the calm and still, but misses wisdom if compered to bodhisattvas dwelling in mahayana. 24516 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Presence Hi, Elias - In a message dated 8/24/03 9:50:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, crystalmelodyhaven@y... writes: > > Ps. I've read if it's true i do not know, that theravada strives for > the calm and still, but misses wisdom if compered to bodhisattvas > dwelling in mahayana. > =========================== Mahayana propaganda, Elias, or, to put a better face on it, misunderstanding of Theravada, confusing it with the Sautrantika school and, more especially, with the Sarvastivadin school. Wisdom is paramount in Theravada. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24517 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2003 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 > From Dhammasangani to Patthanapali in one single ecartée: trees, cars, byclcles, > Abhidhamma books, etc, are Aramanapaccayo - object-conditioned mind stuff. > My question: is the Hetupaccayo - root condition mind stuff - the substratum of these > aramanapaccayo, as a 3D object is the source of a 2D image ? Or are they partake of > different definitions ? This is an interesting question--a Platonic construction? I think I've read this hinted at elsewhere. I just think of them as two different conditions. This is probably over my head, though--do you think there's support for this 'substratum' idea in the texts? For example (an odd one maybe), hasituppada-citta (an ahetuka kiriya citta) would be the 'substratum' of what aaramma.napaccayo? By 'substratum', do you refer to the Paali word 'he.t.thaatala'? I don't think I've run across it before. mike 24518 From: rahula_80 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:29am Subject: Buddhist Critique... Hi, Has anyone read, "A Buddhist Critique of the Christian Concept of God" by Gunapala Dharmasiri? A brief review would be appreciated. Thanks. Rahula 24519 From: Larry Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:46am Subject: Re: Vism XIV, 7 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the > individual essences of states." > > Hi all, > > Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this as understanding has > the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of > states? > > The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't understand > concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. > > Larry Hi all, Perhaps a clue to this problem can be found here: Vism. XVI, 66:[Nibbana]It has peace as its characteristic. Its function is not to die; or its function is to comfort. It is manifested as the signless; or it is manifested as non- diversification [nippapan~nca]. L: The way I'm reasoning right now, if nibbana manifests as the signless, then the khandhas manifest with signs. I would say one way signs manifest is as the meaning of words. The vague mental image in my mind that arises when I think the word "tree", is a sign. However, I don't think it is necessary for words to accompany meanings (signs). The meanings can arise by themselves, perhaps with the "determining" consciousness. Furthermore, I would say signs are perceptions (sanna), insofar as sanna deals with rather superficial and naive knowledge which is, in the ultimate sense, close but wrong. Insofar as sanna arises with every consciousness, the task of differentiating concept (sign) from reality can only be partially accomplished by mundane "consciousness" and "understanding", as in the three modes of knowing: :perception (sanna), consciousness (vinnana), and understanding (panna). Ultimately, in order to differentiate signs from the signless (nibbana), the "change of lineage" and supramundane consciousnesses are necessary. This is all just theory of course. So, don't anyone get too excited. It's all superficial and naive. Larry 24520 From: Elias Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Presence Hello Howard I did read it in a book where dalai lama describes meditation with parts of texts from Bhavanakrama by Kamalashila. In the book "The Sates of Meditation" it can be read where Kamalashila have wroten it. It says over and over how theravadans miss parts of the teachings, and just develops samadhi and small parts of wisdom. as theravadans not seing the truth, just parts of it, ex to see things do not have a self, but haven't investigated it. As I also wrote in the mail, the emptiness that can be very well read ind escribed ways in the 'heart sutra'(mahayana) was for me, the more intresting teaching. But as we read theravadas suttas, we do not go so much into this subject, we don't investigate anatta. ofcurse this is individual, and some monks in the theravada do not miss this 'emptiness wisdom', but to just say and understand 'there's no self in objects' is not enough. it's not completed wisdom. So, thinka bout yourself, and thinka bout if you had nibbana in your hands, you could eat it or wait for it. mahayanas wait untill every being have eatin eat, then theirself do it it. In theravada it seems we first care mostly only for ourself, untill we reach nibbana. now we can learn others so they also can reach nibbana. then we will not enter samsara more. but in mahayanit's the opposite, they choose reach the parinibban after all others have done it. If one ask a theravada monk, "whya re you here as a monk?" the answer might just be "to become enlightened and destroy all suffering". This way as theravadas can be seen unsoft and hard, as we ourself may seem more important because we choose nibbana as fast as we can. One have to understand WHY one gives love and less suffering to others by reaching parinibbana and leaves samsara. This will make the theravada much more joyfull and not making such differences with other buddhist paths. /elias > Mahayana propaganda, Elias, or, to put a better face on it, > misunderstanding of > Theravada, confusing it with the Sautrantika school and, more especially, > with the Sarvastivadin school. Wisdom is paramount in Theravada. > > With metta, > Howard 24521 From: Larry Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: Vism XIV, 7 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Vism. XIV, 7: "Understanding has the characteristic of penetrating the > individual essences of states." > > Hi all, > > Is it acceptable to one and all to understand this as understanding has > the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of > states? > > The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't understand > concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. > > Larry Hi all, Perhaps a clue to this problem can be found here: Vism. XVI, 66:[Nibbana]It has peace as its characteristic. Its function is not to die; or its function is to comfort. It is manifested as the signless; or it is manifested as non- diversification [nippapan~nca]. L: The way I'm reasoning right now, if nibbana manifests as the signless, then the khandhas manifest with signs. I would say one way signs manifest is as the meaning of words. The vague mental image in my mind that arises when I think the word "tree", is a sign. However, I don't think it is necessary for words to accompany meanings (signs). The meanings can arise by themselves, perhaps with the "determining" consciousness. Furthermore, I would say signs are perceptions (sanna), insofar as sanna deals with rather superficial and naive knowledge which is, in the ultimate sense, close but wrong. Insofar as sanna arises with every consciousness, the task of differentiating concept (sign) from reality can only be partially accomplished by mundane "consciousness" and "understanding", as in the three modes of knowing: :perception (sanna), consciousness (vinnana), and understanding (panna). Ultimately, in order to differentiate signs from the signless (nibbana), the "change of lineage" and supramundane consciousnesses are necessary. This is all just theory of course. So, don't anyone get too excited. It's all superficial and naive. Larry 24522 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Mike: Mike: " This is an interesting question--a Platonic > construction? I think I've read > this hinted at elsewhere. I just think of them as > two different conditions. > This is probably over my head, though--do you think > there's support for this > 'substratum' idea in the texts?" ----------------------------------------------------- It seems a little. Platonic and neo-platonic works - Plotinus, Numenius of Apanea and Proclus - share many of these remarks...but they insist in the concept of a soul immortal, pure, eternal, etc, as a term of their reasonings. At this particular point theravada buddhism is indeed light-years ahead! Different conditions...hmmm... perhaps yes. At Patthanapali ( if I could translate its beginning right!!!) I found that hetupaccayo has a "sameness" relationship with objects of same class or dhamma at a rupa level "...hetusampayutakanam dhammanam tamsammuthañañanca rupanam..." while Aramanapaccayo has a liason with Cakkhuviññana, manoviññana, etc (all six elements) that forms a mental image in our minds. If you suppose that an object at your mind has a same class of rupa than a real object just ahead our senses, so they share the same conditions. If not, they don´t. That´s my viewpoint about these particular text at Abhidhamma. Corrections are welcome. ----------------------------------------------------- Mike:" For example (an odd one maybe), hasituppada-citta > (an ahetuka kiriya citta) > would be the 'substratum' of what aaramma.napaccayo?" ----------------------------------------------------- A smilling Arahant could be a very rare event...but since it is a ahetuka kiriya citta ( embodied at the six senses as defined, despite to be ahetu),so there could be an Aramanapaccaya related to it. Why not ? ------------------------------------------------- Mike: " By 'substratum', do you refer to the Paali word > 'he.t.thaatala'? I don't > think I've run across it before." -------------------------------------------------- Yes!!! At my opinion, the hetupaccaya could be a solid foundation (hetthaatala) of the Aramanapaccayo that lies on it, as a basis of a stupa! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24523 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Larry, op 21-08-2003 02:00 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Larry: Is nibbana different from the attainment of cessation? Nibbana is > unproduced. N: Yes, nibbana is the object of lokuttara cittas. The attainment of cessation is not lokuttara. After emerging phalacittas arise which experience nibbana. (Vis. XXIII,47). Positively produced etc. I have dounts about this translation, I would have to know the Pali. All these notes are very complicated. I read in Vis. XXIII, 52: it is not sabhaava. And not classifiable as conditioned or unconditioned, mundane or supramundane. Then the not 18, as quoted by you. Nina. 24524 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:48am Subject: FW: Meanings of dhamma, no 9. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:54:47 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Meanings of dhamma, no 9. no. 9 The Saddaniti explains dhamma as pu~n~na, virtue: <"Dhammo have rakkhati dhammacaarin"ti evamaadiisu pu~n~ne. In a passage such as ³The dhamma truly protects the person who practises it², dhamma refers to virtue.> The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta² explains: ³Dhamma well-practised issues in bliss² (Sn.v. 184), dhamma means merit (or kusala), gu.na. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as disciplinary offense in a similar way as above: <"Cattaaro paaraajikaa dhammaa"ti-aadiisu aapattiya.m. In passages such as ³four disciplinary offenses involving defeat (paaraajika)², dhamma means disciplinary offense. > The Saddaniti explains dhamma as knowable (neyya): <"Kusalaa dhammaa"ti-aadiisu ~neyye. In a passage as ³wholesome dhammas etc.² the word dhamma means what is knowable, what is to be known.> N: Neyya: gerund of neti: to lead, guide, understand. neyya: to be instructed, understood. The Saddaniti, as we have seen above, defines dhamma as sabhaava in a similar way: N: Thus, all that is real, inside or outside, is classified as these three dhammas: kusalaa dhammaa, akusalaa dhammaa, abyaakataa dhammaa. They are sabhaava, they each have their own specific nature (or characteristic), and these characteristics are unalterable. Kusala is always kusala, akusala is always akusala. They are not abstractions: when their specific characteristics appear, they are are to be understood, neyya. Their true nature can be known. The Commentary to the ³Muulapariyaayasutta² explains dhamma as neyya: The word dhamma is associated with dhaareti: to bear. ***** Nina. 24525 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear Nina: > Nina: " A. Sujin explained > > satipatthana while we were > > walking along pyramids." > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > (well...what could I say ?) > > --------------------------------------------------- Actually, I would find it very discourteous to be droning on about satipatthana while visiting the pyramids. They should be savored and pondered in as much silence as possible. There is a time and a place for everything and I don't think that was the proper time or place...but to each their own. Metta, James 24526 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:15pm Subject: Re: Meaning of Ayya Hello Sese, Ayyaa is a Pali word which means Lady (or Sister). More about Ayya Khema can be found at this link: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6774/a_khema.htm There is controversy within the Theravada tradition surrounding the term Bhikkhuni (female monk). There are some people who believe the Bhikkhuni Sangha died out in Sri Lanka a thousand years ago, was not revived, and is not able to be revived. Those who hold this view allow that women can, at most, be eight or ten precept nuns. Thus, the four-fold community of fully ordained nuns, fully ordained monks, lay women and lay men, which the Buddha declared was integral to the success of the Buddhadhamma, has been absent from all Theravada countries for one thousand years. Other people believe the Bhikkhuni Sangha can be, and has been, revived in Sri Lanka. Those who believe it legitimately can, and has been, revived are working towards the objective of offering and supporting this training pathway to increasing numbers of women. My understanding is that there are now Bhikkhuni Training Centres in Sri Lanka at Newgala, Panadura and Kalundewa (Dambulla) and Anuradhapura in Sri Lanka. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sese2k3" wrote: > Dear all friends, > > I've joined this group for several weeks ago. But I am not the > active one.Now let me introduce myself once more. > > My name is Sese. I am from Jakarta, Indonesia. Now, I've worked at a > newspaper company for 2 years. My knowledge about Buddhism is > average, although several years ago I have joined a temporary > Silacarini program for about two weeks in Mendut Monastery, Indonesia. > > I've heard someone who called Ayya Khema. But I'm not really know > is "Ayya" a Bhikkhuni? I hope someone can explain it to me. And also > I'd rather confuse whether Theravada still has a Bhikkhuni-Sangha or > not. > > Thank you very much for your attention. > > with Metta, > > Sese 24527 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Nina, Thanks for the clarification on attainment of nibbana. This subject will come up again later, perhaps years from now, when we get to this section of the book. However, if you see something of immediate importance that needs clarification, either in Ven. ~Nanamoli's translation or understanding, perhaps we could request some assistance from Bhikkhu Bodhi, or, if he is too busy, perhaps even A.K. Warder (is he still out and about?). Larry 24528 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Presence Hi, Elias - In a message dated 8/24/03 11:47:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, crystalmelodyhaven@y... writes: > Hello Howard > > I did read it in a book where dalai lama describes meditation with > parts of texts from Bhavanakrama by Kamalashila. > In the book "The Sates of Meditation" it can be read where Kamalashila > have wroten it. > > It says over and over how theravadans miss parts of the teachings, > and just develops samadhi and small parts of wisdom. > as theravadans not seing the truth, just parts of it, > ex to see things do not have a self, but haven't investigated it. > > As I also wrote in the mail, the emptiness that can be very well > read ind escribed ways in the 'heart sutra'(mahayana) was for me, > the more intresting teaching. > But as we read theravadas suttas, we do not go so much into this > subject, we don't investigate anatta. > > ofcurse this is individual, and some monks in the theravada > do not miss this 'emptiness wisdom', but to just say and > understand 'there's no self in objects' is not enough. > it's not completed wisdom. > > So, thinka bout yourself, and thinka bout if you had nibbana in your > hands, you could eat it or wait for it. > mahayanas wait untill every being have eatin eat, > then theirself do it it. > In theravada it seems we first care mostly only for ourself, > untill we reach nibbana. now we can learn others > so they also can reach nibbana. then we will not enter samsara more. > but in mahayanit's the opposite, they choose reach the parinibban > after all others have done it. > > If one ask a theravada monk, "whya re you here as a monk?" > the answer might just be > "to become enlightened and destroy all suffering". > > This way as theravadas can be seen unsoft and hard, > as we ourself may seem more important because > we choose nibbana as fast as we can. > > One have to understand WHY one gives love and less suffering > to others by reaching parinibbana and leaves samsara. > This will make the theravada much more joyfull and > not making such differences with other buddhist paths. > > /elias > ========================== Classical Tibetan Buddhism doesn't know about Theravada. It knows about the Sarvastivadins (and the Sautrantikas and some others), which it sometimes calls "Hinayana". Sometimes, on the other hand, it refers to Hinayana as a limited part of the path within the full Mahayana-Vajrayana path of practice. Most modern Tibetan Buddhists, including the Dalai Lama, are quite respectful of Theravada. Lama Surya Das, a Dzogchen master, is quite good friends with well known Theravadins. Moreover, 'Theravada' is an umbrella term with quite a broad span. The main thing about Theravada, however, is that it is based on the Tipitaka, which is truly the Buddha word. Everything that is the real teaching of the Buddha can be found there, including the Bodhisatta career, and emptiness/corelessness of persons and objects. Also, aspiration to Buddhahood is a recognized goal of Theravada. As far as the matter of "compassion and Theravada" is concerned, well, I do think you need to meet some more Theravadins! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24529 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:59pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, welcome, we are living in Bogor. Ph no. 08121108290. metta, selamat rodjali dhamma study group bogor ------original message------ From: nina van gorkom To: Date: 23 Aug 2003 18:52:20 Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, Apa kabar. Yes, I learnt Bahasa when we lived there for three and a half years. But now I forgot most, no opportunity to keep it up. I love that language, and the country, the people. I felt so at home, like with a family. If you want to contact the Bogor group, Selamet Rodjali, I can give you info off line. I am enjoying your nice and sympathetic posts, Nina. op 22-08-2003 07:59 schreef eaglenarius op eaglenarius@c...: Now I keep on learning > buddhist teachings, and try to practice it. > By the way, are you speaking Indonesian, since you mention the dharma group > Bogor ? 24530 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, Howard & Mike, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > What needs to be cut off is lust (chandaraga), not sense faculty. > .... > I think we all agree with your comment. ... snip Excuse my ignorance but could anyone define chandaraga/lust for me ? Do we mean: a) extreme desire for sensual pleasure, b) extreme desire in general, c) any small bit of sensual desire, d) any small bit of desire in general ? And how is lust cut off ? is it: Seclusion from sensual pleasures ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: ... > Seclusion from sensual pleasures is necessary. ...snip > * That reminds me of the following incident: > > "Now at that time a certain bhikkhu, tormented by dissatisfaction, > cut off his own penis. ... ouch! > They reported this matter to the Blessed One > (who said), 'When one thing should have been cut off, that foolish > man cut off something else.'" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc2/ch10.html ... what is it that needs to be cut off ? > > In the same vein, it would be foolish to blindfold oneself, having > one's ears blocked, sense of smell and taste removed, and hands tied > and so on thinking that this would eradicate addiction and > intoxication to senses. Any comments are appreciated. with metta, nori 24531 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:35pm Subject: DSG Messages in a Word Document Hi Friends, When I first discovered DSG, the following thought arose in my mind, "It would be really interesting to read all of the past posts 'like a novel'." In other words, I found that scrolling through a limited number of messages on a web page to be inconvient. I wanted to have a single Microsoft Word document with just the text of the messages (none of the images or advertisements that appear on a web-page). I figured out how to create such a document using a combination of software and brute force. The "software" part is quick, but the "brute force" part takes time (I will likely be "current" by December. In the "files" section of DSG, you will find five zipped Word documents. Each Word document covers 1000 messages and is about 1000 pages long (the zip files are each about 1 meg in size). I will not be adding any more files because a rough calculation shows that there will not be enough space in the files section of the DSG to hold all of the files. I ask those of you who wish to get a "Christmas present" from me to drop me an email at "rob.moult@j..." and I will snail mail you a CD with the complete set of files. Enjoy! Metta, Rob M :-) 24532 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:51pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 8 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 8. How many kinds of understanding are there? 1. Firstly, as having the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states, it is of one kind. 2. As mundane and supramundane it is of two kinds. 3. Likewise as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on, 4. As the defining of mentality and materiality, 5. As accompanied by joy or by equanimity, 6. As the planes of seeing and of development. 7. It is of three kinds as consisting in what is reasoned, consisting in what is learnt (heard), and consisting in development. 8. Likewise as having a limited, exalted, or measureless object, 9. As skill in improvement, detriment, and means, 10. As interpreting the internal, and so on. 11. It is of four kinds as knowledge of the four truths, 12. And as the four discriminations. (4) ---------------------------- (4) "Pa.tisambhidaa" is usually rendered by 'analysis' (see e.g. "Points of Controversy" -- "Kathaavatthu" -- pp. 377ff.). But the Tipi.taka explanations of the four "pa.tisambhidaa" suggest no emphasis on analysis rather than synthesis. Pm. gives the following definition of the term: 'Knowledge that is classified (pabhedagata = put into a division) under meaning (attha) as capable of effecting the explanation and definition of specific characteristics of the meaning class (meaning division) is called "attha-pa.tisambhidaa"; and so with the other three (Pm. 436). 'Discrimination' has been chosen for "pa.tisambhidaa" because, while it has the sense of 'division', it does not imply an opposite process as 'analysis' does. Also it may be questioned whether the four are well described as 'entirely logical': 'entirely epistemological' might perhaps be both less rigid and nearer; for they seem to cover four interlocking fields, namely: meanings of statements and effects of causes (etc.), statements of meanings and causes of effects (etc.), language as restricted to etymological rules of verbal expression, and clarity (or perspicuous inspiration) in marshalling the other three. 24533 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 8 Hi all, I guess we may as well begin discussing the 4 divisions ('discriminations') of knowledge: meaning and result, assertion and cause, etymology, and eloquence. There will be a paragraph or two later in Vism. that discusses this but it is such an odd way to divide up knowledge, I think it will take a while to understand. I have the book "Path of Discrimination" but can't make heads or tails of it. I don't even see how it is a path. If anyone has the "Points of Controversy" or any tipitaka source that discusses this, any additional input would be welcome. I guess my main question for now is how is knowledge of etymology and eloquence panna? What is panna's object here? Is knowledge of meaning and knowledge of eloquence the beginning and end of this path? Larry 24534 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi all (anyone interested to comment), Initially I made this post due to observing the passive nature and aloofness of buddhists in general to worldly affairs. I, as well, as I practice and learn dhamma have noticed myself more and more passive to worldly affairs. But in my state of passivity, I feel something underlying which feels very wrong in the position I take. I posed a question (in this group) of whether it was fair and ethical for buddhists to hold this position: i.e. whether it is living off of alms food, or not taking part in worldly affairs. The gist of the responses was that: > > Howard: > > The bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, in addition to what I have > > said before > > about them, are the primary preservers of the Dhamma, and for > > this I think we > > should be enormously grateful. > > ------------------------------------------------- ... This would be so (to be grateful, and excuse them from mundane tasks), if the dhamma is indeed an ethical position to hold in the first place. And so, the question I will pose in the following example by analogy is whether the position of dhamma is an ethical position to take. Before I present my example, let me state that there is no question as to whether the teaching of Buddha Dhamma is beneficial to those with mental dispositions which cause suffering. The only thing I question here (as ethical) is the position of aloofness/detachment and non-activity in worldly affairs, as well as the dispensing of the suggestion of living off of alms food. Here is my example: To explicate my point, I will reduce our entire global community of billions of people to a nomadic tribe of 5 people. 3 are men who hunt and 2 are women who gather and prepare food. 1 of them is the Buddha. Let us say that they are all suffering from starvation and are approaching death. The Buddha teaches to them that they suffer from delusion/wrong view, from desire (sensual pleasures, becoming/not becoming, etc.) or aversion, or from not realizing Annica (impermanence), not realizing Anatta (not self), etc., etc. While these things Buddha teaches might dispel suffering for those with these mental dispositions, this is not the case here. The case here for suffering is very simple: There is no food !!!; They are starving ! and they are approaching death. Likewise, the solution to this suffering is very simple: To attain food !!!; To act to attain food !!! No amount of meditation or mental conditioning will solve this suffering. Likewise is the case of suffering for much of the world. Most people in this world suffer, not due to mental dispositions, but instead due to physical conditions. Whether it is war, disease, lack of food, lack of sustenance (i.e. money for shelter, food, clothing, education, etc.) The only solution to the suffering in my example, and the latter case (s) is to attend to the physical condition through action to alleviate the condition! So then in my example of the tribe of five: Would it be fair and ethical to remain aloof from the others; to not act (to help attain food)? Would it be fair and ethical to ask the others for alms while refusing to help them gain sustenance through work and toil/suffering since he has taught them the dhamma (which does them no good to alleviate their suffering from starvation)? comments are appreciated. with metta, nori ---------------- 24535 From: june_tg Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: food craving help dear sarah, confidence comes from putting the buddha's teachings into practice, one by one. first you start with a little faith in the goodness/wholesomeness of his teachings (especially after your attachments and longings have put you through hell), which will then grow into a higher level of confidence once you have seen the effects of putting to practice his teachings in your daily life. although i should also say that even though we have confidence, sometimes it is still very easy to get discouraged. but nothing worthwhile comes easy, so i guess the best thing to do is to never give up. the mind is a tricky thing. my food cravings are gone. they were impermanent after all. we just need to have a little patience. may you grow in your meditation practice (if you are meditating, or may you start if you aren't)...and may you and everyone else here and all living beings everywhere be released from all forms of suffering as soon as possible. all the best june --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi June, > > Thanks for joining us and for raising your question here. As James > implied, your qu was a little unusual here (but not out-of-place), just > like him;-) (Hi James, waiting for Egypt Diary2;-)). > > Actually, I really liked the kind and helpful responses James, Icaro, > Howard, Mike & Christine gave a lot. I think it's good to give support in > this area whilst looking at our purpose at the same time. I think I see it > rather like the `living in solitude' or dressing simply in white threads. > It's good to give assistance to others, whilst recognising it's not for > everyone and won't of itself take us closer to nibbana;-) > > --- june_tg wrote: > thanks for all > > > i guess i should mention i am not american, i just grew up there. > .... > Hopefully you'll tell us a little more about yourself in your own time, > June. > .... > > the only reason i am keeping the 8 precepts is because lately my > > confidence in buddhism grew and i have come to believe that there is > > something special about meditation. i find that not eating is quite > > supportive when you want to get into that state of calm. otherwise the > > body is too heavy. > ..... > I think there are many advantages in eating less....including health > considerations and more time for DSG;-)(Also, less shopping, preparing, > cooking, washing-up....;-)) > ..... > >some days things go well, but other days i have > > this food craving and i feel so restless that i can't get myself to > > sit. i guess i should try some walking meditation. does anyone know a > > good book or website about that? > ..... > Perhaps, as others have suggested, you could follow a modified version of > the 8 precepts and have the same benefit of lightness without the > pressure. It can be very difficult to follow exactly in a lay life, > especially when working, travelling or spending time with friends and > family. > > A few other suggestions: > - if you're following a modified version, try having a little fruit and > nuts mid-afternoon > - have a couple of desert dates in the morning and later if you're low in > energy. Or some dried fruit... > - make some veggie broth and finely strain - drink the liquid for energy > rather than tea or coffee perhaps. Diluted apple juice is good or soya > milk.... > - I think it's better to avoid caffeine completely in the afternoon if > possible and to try to go to bed early and get up early. I think a late > routine makes it harder to follow this precept. > - I'm sure it would help to get some exercise - swimming, hiking, Tai chi > - whatever you like. > > June, perhaps you could tell us more about how and why your confidence in > Buddhism has grown. Do you think it's possible for your understanding and > practice to develop even when you're having food cravings and unable to > sit quietly? > > I'm sorry, I don't know any books or websites that are relevant, but there > are many references to the Buddhist monks drinking congee (cooked rice) > water first thing in the morning for any digestive problems and of course > many references to attachment to food. I think you'll find it helpful to > read these past messages and maybe follow the links as they include many > of these references. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14298 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14408 > > Finally a quote from the Questions of King Milinda. I'm reading it in the > Sammohavinodanii,2179(PTS Dispeller of Delusion) now: > Ven Nagasena says: > "...your Majesty, this ten-thousandfold world system carries one Buddha; > it carries the qualities of only one Tathagata. If a second Buddha were to > appear, this ten-thousandfold world system would not carry him. It would > waver and tremble and rock and swoop and swerve and tumble and roll over > and capsize, and it would not come to rest. > > `Or indeed, your Majesty, just as a man might eat as much food as he > wished and, enjoying it and being filled up to his gullet, might be sated, > appeased, filled, stuffed, dazed and stiff as a board, would he be happy > if he were to eat as much again?' `No, venerable sir, if he ate as much > again he would die.' `So indeed, your Majesty, this then-thousandfold > world system carries one Buddha ...would not come to rest.' " > > Metta and look forward to more of your unusual qus, > > Sarah > ====== 24536 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Larry, op 24-08-2003 17:46 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > The main problem, as I see it, is that understanding can't > understand >> concepts. So, there is no right view of concepts. N: Panna understands all kinds of objects, also concepts, why not? It knows when the object is a concept, it knows what a concept, pa~n~natti, is, different from paramattha dhammas. Nina 24537 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Dear Howard, op 24-08-2003 13:41 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I hope for the day that an English > translation of the Dhammasanghani and Patthana are available for my direct > perusal. N:Yes, the PTS transl of Dhammasanghani: Buddhist Psychological Ethics. and Patthana: part of it: Condiitonal Relations. Nina. 24538 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/24/03 11:44:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Here is my example: > > To explicate my point, I will reduce our entire global community of > billions of people to a nomadic tribe of 5 people. 3 are men who hunt > and 2 are women who gather and prepare food. 1 of them is the Buddha. > Let us say that they are all suffering from starvation and are > approaching death. > > The Buddha teaches to them that they suffer from delusion/wrong view, > from desire (sensual pleasures, becoming/not becoming, etc.) or > aversion, or from not realizing Annica (impermanence), not realizing > Anatta (not self), etc., etc. > > While these things Buddha teaches might dispel suffering for those > with these mental dispositions, this is not the case here. > > The case here for suffering is very simple: There is no food !!!; > They are starving ! and they are approaching death. > > Likewise, the solution to this suffering is very simple: To attain > food !!!; To act to attain food !!! > > No amount of meditation or mental conditioning will solve this > suffering. > > Likewise is the case of suffering for much of the world. > > Most people in this world suffer, not due to mental dispositions, but > instead due to physical conditions. > > Whether it is war, disease, lack of food, lack of sustenance (i.e. > money for shelter, food, clothing, education, etc.) > > The only solution to the suffering in my example, and the latter case > (s) is to attend to the physical condition through action to > alleviate the condition! > > So then in my example of the tribe of five: Would it be fair and > ethical to remain aloof from the others; to not act (to help attain > food)? Would it be fair and ethical to ask the others for alms while > refusing to help them gain sustenance through work and toil/suffering > since he has taught them the dhamma (which does them no good to > alleviate their suffering from starvation)? > > > comments are appreciated. > > > with metta, > nori > =========================== You're right, Nori. Instead of becoming the Buddha and leading untold numbers of beings to freedom, Sakyamuni should have become a farmer, food-kitchen provider, and charity organizer! Less caustically: Provided that you do believe what it is claimed about the Buddha and his achievement in rediscovering the path to freedom (and, of course, you have every right to disbelieve this), it seems to me that your position is a bit silly. All beings live, suffer, and die, and then live, suffer, and die - again and again and again. Should we be kind to others and provide for their physical, emotional, and other needs along the way? Of course we should!! And practice, genuine practice, of the Dhamma will only serve to heighten our compassion and our response to the needs of human and other beings. Buddhists are among the most generous people in the world and are among the most active people in the world in helping others and working for peace, harmony, and good will. Out of ten perfections, dana is the first. But providing and safeguarding the means to the ultimate, complete, and final cessation of suffering, pointing out the path to the deathless and safeguarding the possibility of walking that path is incomparably superior to other acts of goodness, and is the greatest act of dana. This is the immense gift that the Buddha has provided to sentient beings and that the Sanghas, both the Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni Sanghas and the Ariyasangha, have helped perpetuate. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24539 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/25/03 12:16:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > op 24-08-2003 13:41 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I hope for the day that an English > >translation of the Dhammasanghani and Patthana are available for my direct > >perusal. > N:Yes, the PTS transl of Dhammasanghani: Buddhist Psychological Ethics. and > Patthana: part of it: Condiitonal Relations. > Nina. > > ========================== Are you saying that these are available? If yes, could you please give more information? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24540 From: Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi again, Nina - I've found these, both at the Pali Text Society web site and at the Pariyatti site. They are indeed available, but rather expensive for me: $49 for Buddhist Psychological Ethics and $136 for the 2 volume set of Conditional Relations. When my Fall classes begin early inSeptember, I may request that my college library purchase copies. I don't know whether I'll meet with success in this, but it's worth a try. Another prof and I are currently working on setting up a "Queens College Buddhist Association", and that may be an arguing point in support of the acquisition. (Actually, it occurs to me now, that if we get administrative support for such a club - it would be a faculty/staff club with activities open to students and the public as well - perhaps we might even get a limited budget for books and journals of our own!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24541 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:06pm Subject: Re: DSG Messages in a Word Document ---Put me down on your XMas list Rob. I looked at the files. Excellent! Could you tell me how to do what you did? Thanks Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Friends, > > When I first discovered DSG, the following thought arose in my > mind, "It would be really interesting to read all of the past > posts 'like a novel'." In other words, I found that scrolling > through a limited number of messages on a web page to be inconvient. > I wanted to have a single Microsoft Word document with just the text > of the messages (none of the images or advertisements that appear on > a web-page). > > I figured out how to create such a document using a combination of > software and brute force. The "software" part is quick, but > the "brute force" part takes time (I will likely be "current" by > December. In the "files" section of DSG, you will find five zipped > Word documents. Each Word document covers 1000 messages and is about > 1000 pages long (the zip files are each about 1 meg in size). > > I will not be adding any more files because a rough calculation > shows that there will not be enough space in the files section of > the DSG to hold all of the files. I ask those of you who wish to get > a "Christmas present" from me to drop me an email > at "rob.moult@j..." and I will snail mail you a CD with the > complete set of files. > > Enjoy! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24542 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Dear Howard, With respect, I feel you have completely missed my point, and also feel your opening few lines were with intent of ridicule (I think that speech ("caustic" as you say) is wrong speech, no?). Howard: > =========================== > You're right, Nori. Instead of becoming the Buddha and leading untold > numbers of beings to freedom, Sakyamuni should have become a farmer, > food-kitchen provider, and charity organizer! ...This is not what I am saying. > Less caustically: Provided that you do believe what it is claimed > about the Buddha and his achievement in rediscovering the path to freedom (and, of > course, you have every right to disbelieve this), it seems to me that your > position is a bit silly. If you read my argument more carefully again, you will see that my point is that my belief is this: that dhamma is not a path of freedom from dukkha (suffering) for all people. Not all people suffer from mental dispositions, but instead from real physical conditions (e.g. lack of, (or threatening of) life sustenance); Buddha dhamma will do nothing for this - Only changing of the momentary physical condition can alleviate this. > Buddhists are among the most generous people in the world and are > among the most active people in the world While this may be true for lay buddhists I do not think this is the case for the ordained. I do not think monks living in seclusion in the forest, living off of alms, take part in worldly affairs and concerns. And so I question, and raise discussion on whether it is right/ethical for the ultimate goal of Buddhism partly being - to become detached/aloof from the world; to disregard the world; to live off alms with no posession (thus no physical communal functionality); and finally to the ultimate state of detachment - self extinguish- ment - nibbana . Please do not ridicule me for questioning the dhamma. If Buddha was alive he would have wanted me to. I would appreciate helpful replies in my inquiry. with metta, nori 24543 From: robmoult Date: Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:22pm Subject: Re: DSG Messages in a Word Document Hi Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ---Put me down on your XMas list Rob. > I looked at the files. Excellent! > Could you tell me how to do what you did? > Thanks > Robertk Here are the steps: Step 1 - Click Messages, Go To Message 1, Click "Expand Messages" Step 2 - Under File, Select "Save As" Step 3 - Click "Next" (displays next 15 messages) Step 4 - Repeat Step 2 & Step 3 1600 times (really boring) Step 5 - Go into DOS, do a DIR command (with appropriate switches) and pipe the output to a "files.TXT" file (this creates a "files.TXT" file that includes all of the file names) Step 6 - Run a software program that reads the "files.TXT" file to get a file name, reads in the saved web page (.HTM) as an ASCII file, parses the contents to extract relevant info and saves the information in a "DSG.TXT" text file. Repeat the process until 1000 messages have been parsed. (FYI - I wrote the program in Visual Basic) Step 7 - Load the "DSG.TXT" file into Word as an ASCII file and save it as a .DOC file. Step 8 - Use "Find/Replace" feature of Word to replace remaining embedded HTML codes and delete embedded advertisements. (also boring) Sorry you asked? Metta, Rob M :-) 24544 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Nori, --- norakat147 wrote: > I don't mean to intrude, but I was wondering if you can share some of > your experiences with us that you had in Sri Lanka ? > > I very often contemplate selling all of my possessions, quitting my > job and taking off to a Theravada Buddhist dominated country such as > Thailand or Sri Lanka to live a life of contemplation. ..... Nori, you’re not intruding at all - or rather, that is what the list is for;-) We’re hear to discuss, consider and explore experiences and understandings of the (Theravada) teachings together. Even so, this is very difficult for me to answer- like Jim found,it’s hard to know where to start and finish. Perhaps others like Mike can share their far more extensive experiences of solitary and contemplative living;-) ***** It’s nearly 30 years since I spent that time living in a forest monastery, really living in solitude and seldom speaking at all, strictly following 8 precepts and devoted to my intense (Mahasi-style) meditation practices. I had deliberately gone to the monastery -- which I knew about from a friend I’d met in Bodh Gaya -- to become a nun and only had two simple Indian dresses and a small bag of dhamma books by the time I arrived, penniless. I had long ago left a good research job offer, a doting boyfriend and a large close family behind. I still had a very special watch I’d been given as a 21st/come farewell gift when I’d left England about a year before. One day I even donated this to the Sangha and then I often had no clue about days and dates. I found out that there were no nuns or bhikkhuni order but got over this disappointment and happily settled into my simple lifestyle. As I mentioned my cell was tiny - just a wooden plank inside. The women’s section was far away from the bhikkhus who lived in much larger kutis in the forest. I never visited the rest of the forest and I only ever saw the bhikkhus, apart from the head bhikkhu, for ceremonies such as on full-moon days when large numbers of lay people would dress in white and visit the temple to pay respect, offer dana and listen to sermons. I didn’t leave the temple at all for about 6 months and had no contact at all with the outside world apart from a very occasional super snail-mail letter. The only writing I did would be an occasional brief reply and as instructed by the head monk, a detailed diary in exercise books of my meditation experiences. What I particularly remember (perhaps because we have a typhoon in Hong Kong today), were the tropical storms, the almost open air living, all the creatures, the orphanage children in the temple grounds and the sweet little lady who used to look after me. We never spoke a word -- she spoke no English -- but she was really devoted to me and cried and cried when I left. I visited a few years later and she was still quite overcome with emotion. Often, we were the only women there. Other guests would come and just stay a few nights only. She’d sweep the common areas, bring me a most delicious herbal broth in the very early morning, try to make sure the tub of water used for body and clothes washing was kept full and most importantly for me, after the bhikkhus had finished eating, she’d collect what she could from the remains of the offerings for my lunch. As I was strictly following the noon precept, eating in slow motion (as Erik used to describe here) and as I’ve always been allergic to chillies, it was often quite difficult to eat at all healthily. Sometimes I’d just have a little plain rice. On good days I’d have a piece of papaya and curd in addition to the rice and vegetables. Also, it was only a couple of months or so since I’d been sick with hepatitis in Nepal and so I really had to be quite careful not to cause stress to my liver. Inevitably, I became very mal-nourished and very thin. When I had arrived, I had long, thick golden hair. It had started coming out in tufts and I was physically falling apart a few months later. Eventually, there was general concern about this and it became one of the reasons I very reluctantly persuaded to start eating something later in the day. I remember taking a bus to the market and selecting a couple of avocados which seemed to be just what I needed. In any case, by this time - around 6 months since I had arrived, my understanding of the Dhamma had totally changed, mainly as it seemed by a chance meeting with Ann Marshall. As I said, I was an earnest Mahasi-style meditator and had previously had spent several months in Bodh Gaya studying and meditating under A.Munindra’s kind and gentle guidance. Although I had had almost daily discussion sesions with Munindra on the teachings, still it was the meditation practice that was considered to be the practice and I was very serious about it. (I had also spent a little time with Mr Goenka in Bodh Gaya and later on a course in Hyderabad on my way down to Sri Lanka from McLeod Ganj. Ken H, it was like a heveanly break from 3rd class Indian travel in spite of the long hours of sitting in a lotus position on a hard floor. Only Mr Goenka sat in a chair as I recall;-)) ..... > I am not certain if you went there to live a life of solitude and > contemplation, but if you did, I thought it would also be relevant to > the ongoing discussion (on solitude) and would be helpful to those > like me contemplating doing this. ..... What I had understood was that if something was ‘right’ then the more one followed it, the more ‘right’ it became. And so, for 12, 14, 16 hours a day, I followed the Mahasi-style training exactly and of course had many of the weird and wonderful experiences others have had and like Dan has described, would attribute them all to great insights. I’d have a weekly session with the Head monk, reading out my diary extracts and occasionally I’d have correspondence with Munindra. I was only ever encouraged in all these assumptions and experiences. “Carry on, carry on”, I’d be told by the monk. I’m sure I became something of a freak, wandering around my part of the temple in slow motion, wasting away but being known as the one who was really practising the teachings. Deep down, I think I must have known something was badly wrong. For a start, my family badly needed my assistance in England and apart from sending occasional kind notes, I wasn’t helping and it disturbed me. I knew my health was not at all good and moving slower and slower was not going to help. I was also beginning to question the practice for the first time and reading the few books I had, including Soma’s Satipatthana sutta and books by Narada, Nyanponika and Nyanamoli very carefully after hardly opening a book for months. I think that Venice, the lady who was in charge of the lay-administration of the temple, must have told Ann when she visited about her concerns about me and my health and strict meditation. No one spoke to me, but one day, on my wooden bed when I returned from some walking meditation, I found a copy of the manuscript of Nina’s ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’. I read the first page and ‘bingo’, as Icaro might say, all the lights went on and it seemed as though the penny dropped for the first time. Although I had heard and read so much about anatta, no-self and no-control, there had been such a strong idea of ‘making’ awareness happen, with no idea about the real objects of awareness, i.e. namas and rupas. Concepts and realities had all been one blur. When I’d been eating, I’d been aware of ‘eating’, 'eating' and so on, without knowing anthing about what is really experienced. I listened with Ann to the tapes she had from the discussions in Banares that Nina wrote about recently and in spite of parts in Thai and Pali, Khun Sujin’s words were like a priceless gift to me instantly. What she said about living in the world of dreams and concepts without any understanding of the present reality, i.e the thinking or seeing or visible object at this moment, was momentous, even though I thought I knew all about living in the present. I burned all my meditation diaries, stopped all my meditation practices at once and started to read the Visuddhimagga and one or two other texts with Ann, snacking, chatting and building up strength. I wrote to my mother to offer to come home and help her and my father reunite after a stormy separation, borrowed the fare for the cheapest flight back via Moscow (Moscow in December in thongs and a thin Indian dress!!)and have never since felt the slightest inclination or need to do anything in particular or be in any particular place or lifestyle in order to develop satipatthana. Returning home was hard - I had to go straight into a tough job working with delinquent adolescents with very long hours and then in my free time try to help family and so on, paying off debts at the same time. However, I was so happy to feel ‘free’ from the great burden of searching for the truth or following a particular ritual. Nori, I had no idea this would be such a long ramble. I don’t know if it’s helpful at all. In answer to your questions, I think that the most important thing is the ‘straightening of views’ and the right theoretical understanding of the Dhamma in the first place. I could give you many references in support for this. Simply put, I think that the more our views are straightened, the less one thinks about what is the right or better place to be in terms of the development of insight. What is the way to straighten our views? I think that asking questions here as you are doing, reading, reflecting and really considering are the most useful. Then it really doesn’t matter if one is working hard and long hours in a New York office or here in Hong Kong’s hustle bustle or living in a temple in Sri Lanka. There can be a life of solitude and contemplation at any moment and any idea that another moment would be more suitable is merely wishful thinking. You may also like to read this letter Jon wrote to Ann a little later when she came to stay with me in England: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17252 See also, a few other posts under ‘decisions’ in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Let me know if this helps or not or if you have any further questions. Thanks for putting up with such a long-winded, somewhat self-indulgent answer. Metta, Sarah ====== 24545 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Arrival and Cave Dwellers Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Note: Sorry Sarah it took so long to rework this update and submit it > but I have been visiting the Pyramids, the Egyptian Museum, and > traveling to the Red Sea. ..... No need to apologise at all. It works really well and the sutta quote answers your own uneasiness better than anything else. Excellent and most enjoyable. I'll keep all your diary entries to show the small number only of kids I'll be teaching in September. Look forward to NO 3 'The Pyramids with or without satipatthana reminders'??? Great to hear you so well settled, James. Metta, Sarah p.s If you want to read Nina's account of the discussions in Egypt, I forget the title now, but I'm sure it would be on this website: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Let me know if you have trouble finding it. Or RobK would know. ====== 24546 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: DSG Messages in a Word Document --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Rob K, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > wrote: > > ---Put me down on your XMas list Rob. > > I looked at the files. Excellent! > > Could you tell me how to do what you did? > > Thanks > > Robertk > > Here are the steps: > Step 1 - Click Messages, Go To Message 1, Click "Expand Messages" > Step 2 - Under File, Select "Save As" > Step 3 - Click "Next" (displays next 15 messages) > Step 4 - Repeat Step 2 & Step 3 1600 times (really boring) > it as a .DOC file. > Step 8 - Use "Find/Replace" feature of Word to replace remaining > embedded HTML codes and delete embedded advertisements. (also boring) > > Sorry you asked? > ___________ Yes, I am actually. Seriously, You did a ton of work Rob. much appreciated! 24547 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Hi Gayan (& Elias), --- Gayan Karunaratne wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Please accept my heartfelt metta to you all. > > Sarah ordered me to inform the members about my whereabouts , .... Hey, Gayan, since when did a heartfelt pleading become an order;-) Just sometimes when members ask me to send metta to all other members, I suggest they might do it themselves;-) Thanks anyway. For Newbies, you can find Gayan’s pic in the album: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst I don’t think I’ve even told the photo committee the story about when Gayan first posted his pic, my server at the time banned it. When I enquired with emails and ph calls, I was told it was probably because the pic was indecent. So everytime I looked in the album, I just saw a cross for Gayan. However, Jon checked on his office computer with a different server and found a properly attired Gayan with no problem. I followed up again with my server and found he’d been banned because of the first three letters of his name;-) Any pictures of Bodh Gaya would have been banned too. Hong Kong has to have the most conservative servers. (Hi Elias, thx also for adding your pic as well. I see you’ve really been making yourself at home in the links page too. That’s fine - we just keep a watchful eye to check any links conform with our strict guidelines;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links If any other new (or old) members feel able to follow Elias’ lead in the photo album, we’d all be glad.) ..... > I was asked to come back to USA on an assignment in the the beginning of > this year and was living in Boston since then. Will be here until > sometime > next year. > I have been behaving well , without accumulating papa kamma, but there > have > been some akusala kamma. > My plan is to go beyond the break-even ,.. but as you know , one has to > be > very very patient. .... Gayan, I’m not quite sure what the ‘break-even’ is. Is it to perform more kusala than akusala kamma in a day or is it to reach the first stage of enlightenment? Glad for any enlightening... .... > Although I have remained silent on DSG, I have been frequently reading > the > posts and thoughts with great interest. .... It’s always encouraging to hear this. Even if lurkers only surface once in a while to tell us they’re around, it’s much appreciated. .... > Hope all your merits have been treating you well. May they get all the > favourable conditions to get realised. > May you get all the courage to face your demerits. .... Thanks and as Mike said, the reminders from your ‘Cheating’ Dhammas series is helpful in this regard: See the following posts: Cheating (vancaka) Dhammas 3543, 3544, 3545, 10517 I know you’re not in Sri Lanka now, but I thought you (or maybe Sumane) might have an idea of anywhere Jim could contact there to help track down the old Pali grammars. If so, maybe you could let me or him know. Thanks so much for following my ‘order’;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24548 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG Messages in a Word Document Hi RobM & Friends, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Friends, > > When I first discovered DSG, the following thought arose in my > mind, "It would be really interesting to read all of the past > posts 'like a novel'." In other words, I found that scrolling > through a limited number of messages on a web page to be inconvient. > I wanted to have a single Microsoft Word document with just the text > of the messages (none of the images or advertisements that appear on > a web-page). > > I figured out how to create such a document using a combination of > software and brute force. .... And it has taken lots and lots and hundreds of hours of brute force I know. Thanks to Rob M and his interest in reading the entire archive ‘novel’, all my DSG nightmares which were always centred around losing the entire archives and work on UP, disappeared overnight. He has no idea how many people I had approached in the effort to find a way to back up the entire archives with the same numbering system without success. At one point I even joined a busy list for moderators and no one there could work out a system to get around the difficulty yahoo has painstakingly created. Instead I read many stories of lists and archives that had been entirely lost and so my nightmare rate increased, especially when we couldn’t access DSG for several days and could get no response from yahoo. Anyway, that’s all a thing of the past. We have a back-up DSG2 in case of a breakdown of longer than a week, most the archives on escribe, and now the entire archives with same numbering (important for UP etc) backed up out of Yahoo’s reach by RobM. Thank you so much Rob. It’s a wonderful gift to DSG and wonderful that others now can scroll through the ‘novel’ as you do on flights, holiday destinations and maybe even during blackouts;-) For those with limited internet access time or for whom cost is a major factor, this could be really wonderful. I know you can also use the word search facility on the archives without internet, but forget how all this works. I think it’s a great idea too to put the series in ‘Files’ as you have done. I think you should carry on with this and we’ll make room for them. (RobK, perhaps if you and Nina aren’t looking at the full ‘Survey’ there anymore, it can be removed as it takes up quite a lot of space and can be read at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ If there was another reason for it to stay til it gets printed, I just forget- let me know off-list if so.) What we can also possibly do, RobM, when there’s no more room in the files, is to use the file space in DSG2 (same amount) which I mentioned we have for emergency use only. At the moment only the moderators can access it as we don’t want ppl posting there by mistake. When we get closer to that point, we’ll discuss it or other alternatives with Kom. (On another topic, Rob M, if you find a way of Pali conversion for Mac dummies without throwing out the Mac, Nina and I will again be grateful for ever, but this is not in the nightmare league at all, let me assure you. It’s jsut that everyone else has failed) Rob, always great to have you around. I’m not sure you’ve met Icaro from Brazil whose favourite text is the Pali version of Dhammasangani;-) I’ve forgotten which date we’ll be seeing you in HK. Hope it’s soon. Metta, Sarah p.s for anyone like me who prints out posts to read away from the computer, Rob M's system ( read the first couple of steps or so), is by far the quickest and easiest way to do this. Thx again. For creaky arms, it all helps. (Mike, Jon uses voice recognition software for his work, but has limited success here, esp. with any Pali. He's my guinea pig for testing it out) ====== 24549 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG Messages in a Word Document Hi Sarah, A labour of love! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > I think it's a great idea too to put the series in `Files' as you have > done. I think you should carry on with this and we'll make room for them. === I will post them as I create them and leave it to you (and Kom) to figure out what to do when space becomes an issue. === > (On another topic, Rob M, if you find a way of Pali conversion for Mac > dummies without throwing out the Mac, Nina and I will again be grateful > for ever, but this is not in the nightmare league at all, let me assure > you. It's jsut that everyone else has failed) === Believe it or not, I will be in HK all of next week; not sure which evenings I will be free yet, but we can get together and chat about this problem. === > Rob, always great to have you around. I'm not sure you've met Icaro from > Brazil whose favourite text is the Pali version of Dhammasangani;-) === Icaro has already sent me an email requesting a "Christmas present". I was looking at the English version of the Dhammasangani last night, I can't imagine tackling it in Pali! Metta, Rob M :-) 24550 From: eaglenarius Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:03am Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Hello Selamat, Nina, -----Original Message----- From: nana_palo@c... [mailto:nana_palo@c...] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:59 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, welcome, we are living in Bogor. Ph no. 08121108290. ---------------------- Eagle : Thanks for your introduction. I'm reading your works in Buddhistonline, and articles (Indonesian) from theravada.net which was sent by Mr. Chandadhammo B. C. I'll surely contact you ( off-list ?), if I need more explanation of the articles. ---------------- Nina :If you want to contact the Bogor group, Selamet Rodjali, I can give you info off line. ------- Eagle : It's very kind of you to offer that. Best regards, Eagle 24551 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:20am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 8 Vism.EngPali.XIV, 8 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 8. (iv) How many kinds of understanding are there? 1. Firstly, as having the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states, it is of one kind. 2. As mundane and supramundane it is of two kinds. 3. Likewise as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on, 4. As the defining of mentality and materiality, 5. As accompanied by joy or by equanimity, 6. As the planes of seeing and of development. 7. It is of three kinds as consisting in what is reasoned, consisting in what is learnt (heard), and consisting in development. 8. Likewise as having a limited, exalted, or measureless object, 9. As skill in improvement, detriment, and means, 10. As interpreting the internal, and so on. 11. It is of four kinds as knowledge of the four truths, 12. And as the four discriminations. (4) 8. katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.nena taava ekavidhaa. lokiyalokuttaravasena duvidhaa. tathaa saasavaanaasavaadivasena, naamaruupavavatthaapanavasena, somanassupekkhaasahagatavasena, dassanabhaavanaabhuumivasena ca. tividhaa cintaasutabhaavanaamayavasena. tathaa parittamahaggataappamaa.naaramma.navasena, aayaapaayaupaayakosallavasena, ajjhattaabhinivesaadivasena ca. catubbidhaa catuusu saccesu ~naa.navasena catupa.tisambhidaavasena caati. 24552 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG Messages in a Word Document Hi Robmoult! Robmoult:" Icaro has already sent me an email requesting a > "Christmas present". > I was looking at the English version of the > Dhammasangani last > night, I can't imagine tackling it in Pali!" ----------------------------------------------------- :-)))))))))))))))) TALLY HO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24553 From: Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/25/03 2:15:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > With respect, I feel you have completely missed my point, and also > feel your opening few lines were with intent of ridicule (I think > that speech ("caustic" as you say) is wrong speech, no?). ----------------------------------------------- Howard: You are correct, it is wrong speech, and I apologize. ----------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > >=========================== > > You're right, Nori. Instead of becoming the Buddha and > leading untold > >numbers of beings to freedom, Sakyamuni should have become a > farmer, > >food-kitchen provider, and charity organizer! > > ...This is not what I am saying. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay. I thought that you were grossly mimimizing what the Buddha accomplished relative to certain urgent worldly needs, and I thought that position was way off base. I then permitted myself a quick piece of sarcasm that was thoughtless, inappropriate, and uncalled for. Again, I am very sorry. ------------------------------------------ > > > > Less caustically: Provided that you do believe what it is > claimed > >about the Buddha and his achievement in rediscovering the path to > freedom (and, of > >course, you have every right to disbelieve this), it seems to me > that your > >position is a bit silly. > > If you read my argument more carefully again, you will see that my > point is that my belief is this: that dhamma is not a path of freedom > from dukkha (suffering) for all people. Not all people suffer from > mental dispositions, but instead from real physical conditions (e.g. > lack of, (or threatening of) life sustenance); Buddha dhamma will do > nothing for this - Only changing of the momentary physical condition > can alleviate this. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: While I don't at all deny the need to change momentary physical conditions or the importance of doing so, to help out people whenever possible, I basically disagree with your view. I do see the Dhamma as a path of freedom from dukkha for all people. This does not, of course, preclude helping people obtain food, shelter, medicine, etc in order to maintain their fortunate human life, and to maintain it in a state suitable to make it useful and livable with some degree of ease. ------------------------------------------------ > > >Buddhists are among the most generous people in the world and are > >among the most active people in the world > > While this may be true for lay buddhists I do not think this is the > case for the ordained. I do not think monks living in seclusion in > the forest, living off of alms, take part in worldly affairs and > concerns. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Some certainly do. The examples are plentiful, from all schools of Buddhism. Others more single-mindedly pursue mental cultivation according to the vinaya with the aim of liberating themselves to whatever degree possible, putting themselves into a way better position to bring the benefits of the Dhamma to others. Along the way, they typically teach within the Sangha and without, serve as prefects for other monks and nuns, and often help the lay population in many, many ways. What monks and nuns do runs the gamut from very worldly activities to a life a forest solitude. It is all good. --------------------------------------------------- > > And so I question, and raise discussion on whether it is > right/ethical for the ultimate goal of Buddhism partly being - to > become detached/aloof from the world; to disregard the world; to live > off alms with no posession (thus no physical communal functionality); > and finally to the ultimate state of detachment - self extinguish- > ment - nibbana . > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: You, indeed, have every right to question it. I wonder whether your questioning may not be based on a few incorrect suppositions including a fixed view of what monks and nuns limit themselves to, what detachment actually involves (it isn't indifference), and the view of nibbana as a nothingness. It seems that way to me, but I could well be wrong. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Please do not ridicule me for questioning the dhamma. If Buddha was > alive he would have wanted me to. I would appreciate helpful replies > in my inquiry. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are absolutely correct! I again apologize for my intemperence and rudeness. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > with metta, > nori > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phan tom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24554 From: Elias Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All (buddha) all, i also added a new photograf (art) of gotama buddha in the photosection. WHo or whom have drawed the picture i do not know. /elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > (Hi Elias, thx also for adding your pic as well. I see you've really been > making yourself at home in the links page too. That's fine - we just keep > a watchful eye to check any links conform with our strict guidelines;-) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links 24555 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Vis. XIV,7 samaano Dear Larry, It is very thoughtful to collect different footnotes of Vis which are Tika passages. Of no 7, about dhammasabhaavo, the word samaana was translated as existing , but although not incorrect, I prefer: true. You will see the next sentence: I am still working at this passage and will poste it later on. Nina. 24556 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 8 B FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 8 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:57:23 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 8 B Commentary 8B: aya~nhi -- This is the saying: anatthajanano lobho, lobho cittappakopano. Desire leads to harm, it agitates the mind, bhayamantarato jaata.m, ta.m jano naavabujjhati. peril occurs within, but people do not understand this. luddho attha.m na jaanaati, luddho dhamma.m na passati. The person with desire does not know cause and effect. * andhatama.m tadaa hoti, ya.m lobho sahate nara.m.. (itivu 88) -- There is dense darkness when desire overwhelms people. yathaa kho pana anekaratanapuuraa mahaanaavaa bhinnaphalakantarena udaka.m aadiyamaanaa Just as a vessel full of treasures that takes in water through a broken board inside muhuttampi na ajjhupekkhitabbaa hoti, should not be neglected for one moment, vegenassaa vivara.m pidahitu.m va.t.tati, and its hole should be quickly closed, evameva.m ayampi na ajjhupekkhitabbo. evenso should Rahula not be neglected. yaavassa aya.m kileso abbhantare siilaratanaadiini na vinaaseti, So long as those defilements do not destroy the treasures of his virtue, taavadeva na.m nigga.nhissaamii''ti ajjhaasayamakaasi. I can still censure him.² Thus the Buddha decided. evaruupesu pana .thaanesu buddhaana.m naagavilokana.m naama hoti. At such occasions Buddhas look around with the Elephant¹s Look. tasmaa yantena parivattitasuva.n.napa.timaa viya Therefore, just as a golden statue is turned around by a mechanical device, sakalakaayeneva parivattetvaa .thito raahulabhadda.m aamantesi. he turned around with his whole body and so standing he addressed Lucky Rahula. ta.m sandhaaya ``atha kho bhagavaa apaloketvaa''tiaadi vutta.m. In this connection it was said, ³then the Buddha after he had looked around² and so on. English: This is the saying: Desire leads to harm, it agitates the mind, peril occurs within, but people do not understand this. The person with desire does not know cause and effect. * There is dense darkness when desire overwhelms people. Just as a vessel full of treasures that takes in water through a broken board inside should not be neglected for one moment, and its hole should be quickly closed, evenso Rahula should not be neglected. So long as those defilements do not destroy the treasures of his virtue, I can still censure him.² Thus the Buddha decided. At such occasions Buddhas look around with the Elephant¹s Look. Therefore, just as a golden statue is turned around by a mechanical device, he turned around with his whole body and so standing he addressed Lucky Rahula. In this connection it was said, ³then the Buddha after he had looked around² and so on. * the person with attachment does not understand the cause (dhamma as cause, hetu) of dukkha, which is craving, nor the effect (attha) which is dukkha. He does not understand the noble Truths and thus there will not be the cessation of dukkha. ***** Nina. 24557 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impediments (II) Dear Jon, Thank you for elaborating further on this interesting and important subject. op 24-08-2003 09:52 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > J: I can see why the supernormal powers are not an impediment for > concentration (i.e., because it is through concentration that they > are obtained), but I do not recall why they are said to be an > impediment for insight. Is it because of subtle attachment to them, > causing the person to be distracted from the goal of penetrating the > characteristic of dhammas (conditioned phenomena)? I usually think > of ignorance or wrong view as being the only true obstacles to the > development of insight. N: To gain the supernormal powers the yogavacara has to attain the fourth jhana, have masteries of jhana, and cultivate the four iddhiipaada, bases of success. While jhanacittas arise he cannot be aware of nama and rupa appearing through the six doors. When he emerges from jhana he has to make a resolve for the supernormal power he wants to attain, such as to become many (Vis. XII, 57). He is indeed distracted from the goal of penetrating the characteristic of dhammas (conditioned phenomena) appearing one at a time through the six doors. When he is an arahat already it is a different matter. Nina. 24558 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Dear Icaro, I could add a few things. op 24-08-2003 18:18 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: At > Patthanapali ( if I could translate its beginning > right!!!) I found that hetupaccayo has a "sameness" > relationship with objects of same class or dhamma at a > rupa level > >First sentence of Patthana: "...hetusampayutakanam dhammanam tamsammuthanananca > rupanam..." N: samu.t.thaana: origination, cause, arising from. : and of the rupas arising from the dhammas which are accompanied by roots.In my Transl: Citta is one of the four factors that produce rupa (the others being kamma, heat and food). A citta accompanied bu hetus, say, dosa-muula-citta, can produce rupa, and then that rupa is conditioned by root-condition, hetu-paccaya. When we are angry, we may express this with our facial expression, akusala citta produces the rupa which is boduly intimation (kayavi~n~natti), and this rupa is then conditioned by the hetus of moha and dosa by way of root. The same is true for sobhana hetus. Thus here is the relation with rupa you were wondering about. Icaro: .... If you suppose that an > object at your mind has a same class of rupa than a > real object just ahead our senses, so they share the > same conditions. If not, they don?t. > That?s my viewpoint about these particular text at > Abhidhamma. Corrections are welcome. N: Citta experiences an object, as you imply, through the six doors. Nama is experienced only through the mind-door, and rupa can be experienced through the sense-doors and also through the mind-door. We have to learn that nama and rupa have different characteristics, but this is very difficult for all of us. I would not think of an object at your mind that has a class of rupa, just as if rupa enters citta, it is just experienced by citta. Citta experiences an object for an extremely short moment, and it is difficult for us to know when seeing which is ahetuka, experiences visible object and when lobha-mulacitta arises and experiences that object. It is hard to know when the hetus react towards the object. Is there yoniso manasikara or ayoniso manasikara? It is all so fast, panna must be very keen. Because of contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya, cittas succeed one another very rapidly, and according to a fixed order (niyaama). Also, when lobha accompanies the citta it is conditioned by former lobha: pakatupanissaya-paccaya, natural strong dependence-condiiton. Translating "Kamma as one's own" reminded me again how difficult it is to really understand conditions, including kamma that produces vipaka. Only at the first stage of insight it is known what nama is. Thus, before that we can only understand the theory of object-condition and hetu-paccaya. What does it really mean: citta experiences an object at this moment. I: A smilling Arahant could be a very rare event...but > since it is a ahetuka kiriya citta ( embodied at the > six senses as defined, despite to be ahetu),so there > could be an Aramanapaccaya related to it. Why not ? N: That is right, each citta is conditioned by Arammanapaccaya, the object conditions the citta by being the object of experience. > ------------------------------------------------- > Mike: " By 'substratum', do you refer to the Paali > word >> 'he.t.thaatala'? I don't >> think I've run across it before." > > -------------------------------------------------- I: > At my opinion, the hetupaccaya could be a solid > foundation (hetthaatala) of the Aramanapaccayo that > lies on it, as a basis of a stupa! N: I would like another option: object-condition is a condition by way of object for citta accompanied by hetu. It is experienced not only by citta but also by the accompanying cetasikas, thus by the accompanying hetus. There are so many conditions operating at the same time, I am not inclined to look for a foundation in particular. We can say, a hetu is a foundation for the citta that is rooted in it, just as the root is a foundation for a tree. Only in that way, as I see it. Nina. 24559 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Dear Nina: Nina:I could add a few things. ----------------------------------------------------- I liked so much your reply, Nina! I am adding it to my bookmarks for further reference!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- >> N: samu.t.thaana: origination, cause, arising from. > : and of the rupas > arising from the dhammas which are accompanied by > roots.In my Transl: roots are related to the dhammas which are > associated with roots, and the > materiality produced thereby, by root-condition.> > Citta is one of the four factors that produce rupa > (the others being kamma, > heat and food). A citta accompanied bu hetus, say, > dosa-muula-citta, can > produce rupa, and then that rupa is conditioned by > root-condition, > hetu-paccaya. ----------------------------------------------------- Perfect!!!! Nina, this demonstrates that my single-handed labour of translating the Pali is not vain!!!!!!!!!!!!! There´s more to come!!!! --------------------------------------------------- > Icaro: .... If you suppose that an > > object at your mind has a same class of rupa than > a > > real object just ahead our senses, so they share > the > > same conditions. If not, they don?t. > > That?s my viewpoint about these particular text at > > Abhidhamma. Corrections are welcome. > N: Citta experiences an object, as you imply, > through the six doors. Nama is > experienced only through the mind-door, and rupa can > be experienced through > the sense-doors and also through the mind-door. We > have to learn that nama > and rupa have different characteristics, but this is > very difficult for all > of us. I would not think of an object at your mind > that has a class of rupa, > just as if rupa enters citta, it is just experienced > by citta. ----------------------------------------------------- That could be very difficult to assimilate because it is not a crude idealism (the object only exists really in our minds)but better an Antinominalism ( objects as mind stuff are names AND things - ´sed nominem ET res´ - nama/rupa). Citta receives the Rupa external our door-senses as an object perceived by the eye, the hear, etc, and as a concept of mind itself! ---------------------------------------------------- Citta > experiences an object for an extremely short moment, > and it is difficult for > us to know when seeing which is ahetuka, experiences > visible object and when > lobha-mulacitta arises and experiences that object. > It is hard to know when > the hetus react towards the object. Is there yoniso > manasikara or ayoniso > manasikara? It is all so fast, panna must be very > keen. ----------------------------------------------------- This can be understood as the principle of the Animated Cartoon or a movie - a very fast sequence of draw images or photograms behaves like an illusion of movement... but the neat experience at our minds falls not (ahetuka)to it: you can enjoy the show as a real thing...or not!(Kusala or Akusala!!) --------------------------------------------------- Nina: " Because of > contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya, cittas > succeed one another very > rapidly, and according to a fixed order (niyaama)." ---------------------------------------------------- A good definition of Niyaama!!! -------------------------------------------------- > Also, when lobha > accompanies the citta it is conditioned by former > lobha: > pakatupanissaya-paccaya, natural strong > dependence-condiiton. > Translating "Kamma as one's own" reminded me again > how difficult it is to > really understand conditions, including kamma that > produces vipaka. Only at > the first stage of insight it is known what nama is. > Thus, before that we > can only understand the theory of object-condition > and hetu-paccaya. What > does it really mean: citta experiences an object at > this moment. ----------------------------------------------------- That makes an anti-metaphysical statement: prese > I: A smilling Arahant could be a very rare > event...but > > since it is a ahetuka kiriya citta ( embodied at > the > > six senses as defined, despite to be ahetu),so > there > > could be an Aramanapaccaya related to it. Why not > ? > N: That is right, each citta is conditioned by > Arammanapaccaya, the object > conditions the citta by being the object of > experience. > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Mike: " By 'substratum', do you refer to the Paali > > word > >> 'he.t.thaatala'? I don't > >> think I've run across it before." > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > I: > > At my opinion, the hetupaccaya could be a solid > > foundation (hetthaatala) of the Aramanapaccayo > that > > lies on it, as a basis of a stupa! > N: I would like another option: object-condition is > a condition by way of > object for citta accompanied by hetu. It is > experienced not only by citta > but also by the accompanying cetasikas, thus by the > accompanying hetus. > There are so many conditions operating at the same > time, I am not inclined > to look for a foundation in particular. We can say, > a hetu is a foundation > for the citta that is rooted in it, just as the root > is a foundation for a > tree. Only in that way, as I see it. > Nina. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24560 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:15am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Dear Nina: Nina:I could add a few things. ----------------------------------------------------- I liked so much your reply, Nina! I am adding it to my bookmarks for further reference!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- >> N: samu.t.thaana: origination, cause, arising from. > : and of the rupas > arising from the dhammas which are accompanied by > roots.In my Transl: roots are related to the dhammas which are > associated with roots, and the > materiality produced thereby, by root-condition.> > Citta is one of the four factors that produce rupa > (the others being kamma, > heat and food). A citta accompanied bu hetus, say, > dosa-muula-citta, can > produce rupa, and then that rupa is conditioned by > root-condition, > hetu-paccaya. ----------------------------------------------------- Perfect!!!! Nina, this demonstrates that my single-handed labour of translating the Pali is not vain!!!!!!!!!!!!! There´s more to come!!!! --------------------------------------------------- > Icaro: .... If you suppose that an > > object at your mind has a same class of rupa than > a > > real object just ahead our senses, so they share > the > > same conditions. If not, they don?t. > > That?s my viewpoint about these particular text at > > Abhidhamma. Corrections are welcome. > N: Citta experiences an object, as you imply, > through the six doors. Nama is > experienced only through the mind-door, and rupa can > be experienced through > the sense-doors and also through the mind-door. We > have to learn that nama > and rupa have different characteristics, but this is > very difficult for all > of us. I would not think of an object at your mind > that has a class of rupa, > just as if rupa enters citta, it is just experienced > by citta. ----------------------------------------------------- That could be very difficult to assimilate because it is not a crude idealism (the object only exists really in our minds)but better an Antinominalism ( objects as mind stuff are names AND things - ´sed nominem ET res´ - nama/rupa). Citta receives the Rupa external our door-senses as an object perceived by the eye, the hear, etc, and as a concept of mind itself! ---------------------------------------------------- Citta > experiences an object for an extremely short moment, > and it is difficult for > us to know when seeing which is ahetuka, experiences > visible object and when > lobha-mulacitta arises and experiences that object. > It is hard to know when > the hetus react towards the object. Is there yoniso > manasikara or ayoniso > manasikara? It is all so fast, panna must be very > keen. ----------------------------------------------------- This can be understood as the principle of the Animated Cartoon or a movie - a very fast sequence of draw images or photograms behaves like an illusion of movement... but the neat experience at our minds falls not (ahetuka)to it: you can enjoy the show as a real thing...or not!(Kusala or Akusala!!) --------------------------------------------------- Nina: " Because of > contiguity-condition, anantara-paccaya, cittas > succeed one another very > rapidly, and according to a fixed order (niyaama)." ---------------------------------------------------- A good definition of Niyaama!!! -------------------------------------------------- > Also, when lobha > accompanies the citta it is conditioned by former > lobha: > pakatupanissaya-paccaya, natural strong > dependence-condiiton. > Translating "Kamma as one's own" reminded me again > how difficult it is to > really understand conditions, including kamma that > produces vipaka. Only at > the first stage of insight it is known what nama is. > Thus, before that we > can only understand the theory of object-condition > and hetu-paccaya. What > does it really mean: citta experiences an object at > this moment. ----------------------------------------------------- That makes an anti-metaphysical statement: present - or time - has no meaning! It´s only the own infinitesimal moment of conscience of Citta, followed by the subsequent ones, and preceeded by the near last ones! ---------------------------------------------------- > N: I would like another option: object-condition is > a condition by way of > object for citta accompanied by hetu. It is > experienced not only by citta > but also by the accompanying cetasikas, thus by the > accompanying hetus. > There are so many conditions operating at the same > time, I am not inclined > to look for a foundation in particular. We can say, > a hetu is a foundation > for the citta that is rooted in it, just as the root > is a foundation for a > tree. Only in that way, as I see it. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------- Right on the point, Nina!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24561 From: Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Howard I don't know. The Buddha used such speech himself in order to "teach lessons" for the overall good of the community. The Buddha would occasionally "put people in their place" when the occasion was appropriate. To the recipient of the "critique" it was probably "stinging" at the time. But it was done for the greater good. Sarcastic Speech is not necessarily lying, malevolent, harsh, or frivolous. I don't think you have anything to apologize for but I applaud your good manners in doing so. :) TG In a message dated 8/25/2003 5:00:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Hi, Nori - > > In a message dated 8/25/03 2:15:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > nori_public@a... writes: > > > > >Dear Howard, > > > >With respect, I feel you have completely missed my point, and also > >feel your opening few lines were with intent of ridicule (I think > >that speech ("caustic" as you say) is wrong speech, no?). > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You are correct, it is wrong speech, and I apologize. > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > >Howard: > >>=========================== > >> You're right, Nori. Instead of becoming the Buddha and > >leading untold > >>numbers of beings to freedom, Sakyamuni should have become a > >farmer, > >>food-kitchen provider, and charity organizer! > > > >...This is not what I am saying. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Okay. I thought that you were grossly mimimizing what the Buddha > accomplished relative to certain urgent worldly needs, and I thought that > position > was way off base. I then permitted myself a quick piece of sarcasm that was > thoughtless, inappropriate, and uncalled for. Again, I am very sorry. > ------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > >> Less caustically: Provided that you do believe what it is > >claimed > >>about the Buddha and his achievement in rediscovering the path to > >freedom (and, of > >>course, you have every right to disbelieve this), it seems to me > >that your > >>position is a bit silly. > > > >If you read my argument more carefully again, you will see that my > >point is that my belief is this: that dhamma is not a path of freedom > >from dukkha (suffering) for all people. Not all people suffer from > >mental dispositions, but instead from real physical conditions (e.g. > >lack of, (or threatening of) life sustenance); Buddha dhamma will do > >nothing for this - Only changing of the momentary physical condition > >can alleviate this. > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > While I don't at all deny the need to change momentary physical > conditions or the importance of doing so, to help out people whenever > possible, I > basically disagree with your view. I do see the Dhamma as a path of freedom > from > dukkha for all people. This does not, of course, preclude helping people > obtain food, shelter, medicine, etc in order to maintain their fortunate > human > life, and to maintain it in a state suitable to make it useful and livable > with > some degree of ease. > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > >>Buddhists are among the most generous people in the world and are > >>among the most active people in the world > > > >While this may be true for lay buddhists I do not think this is the > >case for the ordained. I do not think monks living in seclusion in > >the forest, living off of alms, take part in worldly affairs and > >concerns. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Some certainly do. The examples are plentiful, from all schools of > Buddhism. Others more single-mindedly pursue mental cultivation according to > the > vinaya with the aim of liberating themselves to whatever degree possible, > putting themselves into a way better position to bring the benefits of the > Dhamma > to others. Along the way, they typically teach within the Sangha and > without, > serve as prefects for other monks and nuns, and often help the lay > population > in many, many ways. What monks and nuns do runs the gamut from very worldly > activities to a life a forest solitude. It is all good. > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > >And so I question, and raise discussion on whether it is > >right/ethical for the ultimate goal of Buddhism partly being - to > >become detached/aloof from the world; to disregard the world; to live > >off alms with no posession (thus no physical communal functionality); > >and finally to the ultimate state of detachment - self extinguish- > >ment - nibbana . > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > You, indeed, have every right to question it. I wonder whether your > questioning may not be based on a few incorrect suppositions including a > fixed > view of what monks and nuns limit themselves to, what detachment actually > involves (it isn't indifference), and the view of nibbana as a nothingness. > It > seems that way to me, but I could well be wrong. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >Please do not ridicule me for questioning the dhamma. If Buddha was > >alive he would have wanted me to. I would appreciate helpful replies > >in my inquiry. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > You are absolutely correct! I again apologize for my intemperence and > rudeness. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >with metta, > >nori > > > ========================== > With metta, > Howard > 24562 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:16pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hello Christine, Thank-you for your encouraging words. I have been thinking that if there is enough interest out there (at least five of us), it might be worth starting a new yahoo group specifically for discussing these matters and to share our ideas and experiences. I did some searching of yahoogroups categories and I thought the 'voluntary simplicity' one might fit the best -- simple living for Theravadins! This category is found under Cultures & Community: Issues and Causes. There are 127 voluntary simplicity groups listed and I went through them all and didn't see any for Buddhists, let alone Theravadins. I also thought that such a group could include couples in addition to solitaries. I sometimes hear stories of couples giving up citylife and good jobs to move to a simple life in the country. Btw. I make all my own bread. Best wishes, Jim > Hello Jim, Sarah, Victor and all, > > I think this is a very worthwhile idea and believe the discussion > elsewhere provided much food for thought. Jim, I don't think the > interest faded - it's like making bread - after combining the > ingredients, bread mixture has to be covered and set aside in a warm > place to multiply in size. And so with this topic of a deliberative > spiritual community of lay hermits or recluses. As I recall - the > discussion centred on lay people supporting each other to live a > life of seclusion and simplicity for the purpose of dhamma study and > practice. This included people staying where they were, and being in > communication with a global network of similarly interested > buddhists; a rotating use of properties for travel and holidays was > suggested; and a strong interest was also expressed in creating an > intentional spiritual community by sharing a property (i.e. rural, > large, with separate forms of housing) - this led to a discussion of > how to ensure an income, safety, support, and enough, but not too > much, companionship. > I think this topic has merit - as many of us are in the over-40 age > bracket - we may find it useful to consider just how we eventually > wish to live out our lives, with whom, and how best to support an > increasing commitment to study and practice. > > I wonder what other dsg-ers think? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 24563 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:22pm Subject: Right Speech was [Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for ...] Hello Nori, Howard, TG, All, I was actually pleased to see Nori's calm assertiveness in requesting Right Speech and Howard's alacrity in instantly recognising the need for, and openheartedly giving, the necessary apology. I feel both are to be commended for these actions. I agree with TG that, if we were Buddhas, then we would be able to act without clinging to our identity as a particular person, a particular nationality, a particular role, a particular gender, a particular age, and so view the words or beliefs of others without reaction, but with equanimity. Our speech could then be directed towards helping them to Liberation. But we are very far from being Buddhas. As I understand it, sarcasm does not comply with the last three characteristics below, and very likely not the first two either. "Bhikkhus, words having these five characteristics are words well- spoken, are not words badly-spoken, are blameless words that the wise do not criticize. What are these five characteristics? The five are: spoken at the proper time spoken in line with the truth spoken gently spoken beneficially spoken with a friendly heart Bhikkhus, speech having these five characteristics are words well- spoken, are not words badly-spoken, are blameless words that the wise do not criticize." (Anguttara-Nikaya, Fives.) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: 24564 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical justification for passivity in social action & politics Hi Nori and everyone.... Nori says > Here is my example: > > To explicate my point, I will reduce our entire global community of > billions of people to a nomadic tribe of 5 people. 3 are men who hunt > and 2 are women who gather and prepare food. 1 of them is the Buddha. > Let us say that they are all suffering from starvation and are > approaching death. > > The Buddha teaches to them that they suffer from delusion/wrong view, > from desire (sensual pleasures, becoming/not becoming, etc.) or > aversion, or from not realizing Annica (impermanence), not realizing > Anatta (not self), etc., etc. My comments: First off this is a mischaracterization of the Buddha's teachings. In his first teaching he taught about the Middle Way, the way between engaging in sensual pleasures and self mortification. He found that starvation robbed the body of strength and thus was a limitation to practice. Thus in this example, I think we can gather from the text, that the Buddha would indeed first of all help the group avoid starvation. Nori says: > > While these things Buddha teaches might dispel suffering for those > with these mental dispositions, this is not the case here. > > The case here for suffering is very simple: There is no food !!!; > They are starving ! and they are approaching death. > > Likewise, the solution to this suffering is very simple: To attain > food !!!; To act to attain food !!! > My comments: I disagree the cause of starvation here is lack of food, the cause of suffering is still the attachment to desire, attaching to becoming, etc. Nori says: > No amount of meditation or mental conditioning will solve this > suffering. > > Likewise is the case of suffering for much of the world. > > Most people in this world suffer, not due to mental dispositions, but > instead due to physical conditions. > > Whether it is war, disease, lack of food, lack of sustenance (i.e. > money for shelter, food, clothing, education, etc.) > > The only solution to the suffering in my example, and the latter case > (s) is to attend to the physical condition through action to > alleviate the condition! My comments: I again disagree, the majority of the people in the world are not suffering from starving, but suffering because they cannot get what they want, cannot kept what they get, what they don't want, etc. I do not think one ends the round of suffering through better food and better TV. There is never enough food, never enough heath, never enough clothing to end suffering. If it were so the Buddha would have framed the Forth Noble Truth along the lines that the cessation of suffering is a better house, more pay, and a good union. Nori's comments: > > So then in my example of the tribe of five: Would it be fair and > ethical to remain aloof from the others; to not act (to help attain > food)? Would it be fair and ethical to ask the others for alms while > refusing to help them gain sustenance through work and toil/suffering > since he has taught them the dhamma (which does them no good to > alleviate their suffering from starvation)? > My Comments: The ethical action would be to obtain the food necessary to support the body and to help the others end develop the understanding to end the round of rebirth... Nori says: > > comments are appreciated. > > > with metta, > nori > > > ---------------- > A great opportunity to address one of the issues that often comes up with the Buddhist path :) 24565 From: Eddie Lou Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- icaro franca wrote: > Dear Eddie: > Science and Maths belong to the same substratum of > our minds that can attain and understand Buddha, > Dhamma and Sangha. I don´t see much more points of > contact between them beyond these. Dear Ícaro, What I really mean is Buddha's Dhamma is the 'ultimate complete reality picture / model' and Science (let alone Math) is but a drop in the bucket and far away from catching up. It will take quite some time but when it does it should coincide 'exactly'. See what I mean. Again my question remains - why this samsara and rebirth games described in Dhamma? I already asked of a number of knowledgeable persons but no satisfactory answer yet. > Eddie...do you like Iron Maiden ? "Eddie" is > the > mascot of the band! I do know about Iron Maiden. Can you elaborate a bit? I hope I had trimmed to be short and yet meaningful enough (I was told a few times to trim already). I guess this may be just 1 to 2 kilobytes. Metta, Eddie. 24566 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- In , Eddie Lou < What I really mean is Buddha's Dhamma is the 'ultimate complete reality picture / model' and Science (let alone Math) is but a drop in the bucket and far away from catching up. It will take quite some time but when it does it should coincide 'exactly'. See what I mean. Again my question remains - why this samsara and rebirth games described in Dhamma? I already asked of a number of knowledgeable persons but no satisfactory answer yet. > ___________ Dear eddie, I agree about science and dhamma. Could you give more details about the 'samsara and rebirth games' question. What is it you want answered? RobertK 24567 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding Dear Eddie: Eddie Lou " What I really mean is Buddha's Dhamma is the > 'ultimate complete reality picture / model' and > Science (let alone Math) is but a drop in the bucket > and far away from catching up. It will take quite > some > time but when it does it should coincide 'exactly'. > See what I mean." ---------------------------------------------------- This "ultimate complete reality picture/model" is only the last link of a mental process that begins with sheer ignorance.I think that it can be difficult to leave Math alone, because is one of the best flourishments of human mind - just think that at Classical Greek´s time, Science and Physics were only a branch of Philosophy and Maths (geometry and arithmetics)owned entirely original remarks on thought patterns. The bucket of Reality is far from be filled at present times with this present science... but much of the hard work on understand and elaborate the Universe as the playground of Science Laws was already done. Fortunately! ----------------------------------------------------- Eddie: "Again my question remains - > why > this samsara and rebirth games described in Dhamma? > I > already asked of a number of knowledgeable persons > but > no satisfactory answer yet." --------------------------------------------------- His Holiness The Dalai Lama had expounded many teachings about these matters in his works. Think about the Kamma - cause and effect at a existential level, for example. If you are living not alone, interacting with other living beings, you will perceive that your own mental moods and feelings make on the mental moods and feelings of others...and vice-versa. At one single day in a big city you can find yourself at a Samsara´s rollercoaster: from the Empireal kingdom of the Devas of autosatisfaction to the Infernal Niraya of car accidents, bombs and shotgunnery. Leaving away such samsaric thoughts and take a firm decision of reach the other shore of unconditioned state - Nibbana - is the aim of every person interested on Buddhism. "Lege. Tace. Judice" (Read! Be silent! Judge!) ---------------------------------------------------- Eddie: "I do know about Iron Maiden. Can you elaborate a > bit? > I hope I had trimmed to be short and yet meaningful > enough (I was told a few times to trim already). I > guess this may be just 1 to 2 kilobytes." ---------------------------------------------------- Iron Maiden is a heavy metal band that I am fan!!! Some of their hits: "The tropper" "The number of the beast" "Rhyme of Ancient Mariner" "Running Free". "Two Minutes to Midnight" "Fear of the Dark" "Wasting Love" "Bring your daughter... to the slaughter!" And many many others!!! I could take a entire discussion group only to chatting about it!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24568 From: Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:35pm Subject: RE: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, please don't hesitate to contact me. Dear Mrs Nina, anumodana for your kind attention send Eagle's message to me. how are you? may you and your family be well and ever grow in the Dhamma. muditacittena, selamat. ------original message------ From: "eaglenarius" To: Date: 25 Aug 2003 17:03:07 Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Hello Selamat, Nina, -----Original Message----- From: nana_palo@c... [mailto:nana_palo@c...] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:59 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Dear Eagle, welcome, we are living in Bogor. Ph no. 08121108290. ---------------------- Eagle : Thanks for your introduction. I'm reading your works in Buddhistonline, and articles (Indonesian) from theravada.net which was sent by Mr. Chandadhammo B. C. I'll surely contact you ( off-list ?), if I need more explanation of the articles. ---------------- Nina :If you want to contact the Bogor group, Selamet Rodjali, I can give you info off line. ------- Eagle : It's very kind of you to offer that. Best regards, Eagle 24569 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 8 Dear Larry, While in India we had such an interesting discussion with A. Supee about these. He was explainig how the Buddha knew the way to express all details of Dhamma in perfect and clear language. Expression in language is also a discriminative panna and the Buddha had the highest degree of it. Sariputta had it less, but was still very apt. The other great disciples had it in a lesser degree. The fourth one: knowledge of the first three: the Buddha knew all details of all dhammas, he knew cause and effect.See Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch 15. Meaning, attho: the fruit of a cause. and dhamma in the sense of hetu, cause. See my meanings of Dhamma, I repost the passage: Thus, in these texts dhamma as hetu, condition or cause has been referred to. Also in the ³Pa.tisambhidaamagga², the Path of Discrimination, the four analytical knowledges have been explained. In the Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Sevens, IV, 37, we read about seven conditions leading to the four ³analyses². We read at the end: * Attha has many meanings, this word can designate: purpose, meaning, but also result or consequence. Kom and Jaran also listened while in India, and maybe they can add. Nina. op 25-08-2003 05:22 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I guess my main question for now is how is knowledge of > etymology and eloquence panna? What is panna's object here? Is knowledge > of meaning and knowledge of eloquence the beginning and end of this > path? 24570 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary:with satipatthana. Dear Sarah, dear James, Yes the title is something like Dhamma in Egypt. I would not recommend it to you, James. James, it was still different from what you thought. A. Sujin spoke to us outside while we were walking amidst the bustle of tourists, not inside the graves. We had such good reminders of impermanence and mindfulness of death, seeing the past glory. We also indulged fully in our lobha for art. Daily life. The museum, all that gold: the seeing sure was kusala vipaka. And how we cling immediately. Lodewijk said today: satipatthana can be any moment. Nina. op 25-08-2003 09:14 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Look forward to NO 3 'The Pyramids with or without satipatthana > reminders'??? > p.s If you want to read Nina's account of the discussions in Egypt, I > forget the title now, but I'm sure it would be on this website: > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Let me know if you have trouble finding it. Or RobK would know. > ====== 24571 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Dear Howard, yes to be ordered at PTS, England, and for you in U.S. Pali Text Society. Pariyatti Book Service email: sales@p... It is in Lake city way, N.E. Seattle For members there is ten % off. Success, Nina. P.S. I just read your next message. A good idea. op 25-08-2003 06:32 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 8/25/03 12:16:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > writes: > 24572 From: robmoult Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Hi Howard, FYI - when you join PTS you get one book free (including postage) included in your membership fee. This does not apply to certain books (dictionary, etc.). I believe that this also applies when you renew your membership (i.e. one "free book" per year included in your membership). Details on the PTS website. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Howard, > yes to be ordered at PTS, England, and for you in U.S. Pali Text Society. > Pariyatti Book Service email: sales@p... > It is in Lake city way, N.E. Seattle > For members there is ten % off. > Success, > Nina. > P.S. I just read your next message. A good idea. > op 25-08-2003 06:32 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > Hi, Nina - > > > > In a message dated 8/25/03 12:16:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > > writes: > > 24573 From: Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Hi, Rob - In a message dated 8/26/03 1:22:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > FYI - when you join PTS you get one book free (including postage) > included in your membership fee. This does not apply to certain > books (dictionary, etc.). I believe that this also applies when you > renew your membership (i.e. one "free book" per year included in > your membership). Details on the PTS website. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ========================= Thanks for the info, Rob. I'll ck out the site. (Somehow I expect that the $136 Patthana will not be an acceptable choice of free book! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24574 From: Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 8 Hi Nina, Thanks for your remarks. One odd thing about the 4 patisambhida is that it seems no one can make up their mind whether they are about cause and effect or discourse. This ambivalence almost suggests that experience is syntactic or grammatical. How would you translate patisambhida? I'm leaning towards "division". Larry -------------------------- Nina: Dear Larry, While in India we had such an interesting discussion with A. Supee about these. He was explainig how the Buddha knew the way to express all details of Dhamma in perfect and clear language. Expression in language is also a discriminative panna and the Buddha had the highest degree of it. Sariputta had it less, but was still very apt. The other great disciples had it in a lesser degree. The fourth one: knowledge of the first three: the Buddha knew all details of all dhammas, he knew cause and effect.See Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch 15. Meaning, attho: the fruit of a cause. and dhamma in the sense of hetu, cause. See my meanings of Dhamma, I repost the passage: Thus, in these texts dhamma as hetu, condition or cause has been referred to. Also in the ³Pa.tisambhidaamagga², the Path of Discrimination, the four analytical knowledges have been explained. In the Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Sevens, IV, 37, we read about seven conditions leading to the four ³analyses². We read at the end: * Attha has many meanings, this word can designate: purpose, meaning, but also result or consequence. Kom and Jaran also listened while in India, and maybe they can add. Nina. 24575 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Hi Howard, (Icaro, RobM, Eagle & All), Let me add my bit too.... The Patthana (Conditional Relations) is extremely difficult for me to follow even in translation. However, it’s a great reference text in small doses at a time, I think. I strongly recommend that you order U Narada’s ‘Conditional Relations’ which is a detailed guide or summary to the Patthana, to study either first or alongside the Patthana which he translated for the PTS. ***** Miss Horner, in her foreward to the Patthana translation also discusses the disappearance of the Teachings: “In the Anagatavamsa and some of the Pali Commentaries it is stated that as time goes on and on the Buddha’s Dhamma will decay owing to five “disappearances” affecting its survival. In the “disappearance of learning”, the Great Patthana itself will decay first, other parts of the Pitaka following till all have fallen into oblivion. It is largely to delay such an eventuality that the Muula Pa.t.thaana Sayadaw [U Narada] and his fellow-worker, U Thein Nyun, feel it important to devote so much of their time and effort to translating the Abhidhamma. They believe that if Patthana can be understood in the West "as it really is" (yathaaabhuuta), a means of keeping it alive for an additional length of time will have been achieved; hence the survival of the rest of the Abhidhamma-pitaka, of the Sutta-pitaka and of the Vinaya-pitaka will be assured also.” I think this is also one reason for DSG and for some of us, for quoting from the Abhidhamma and commentaries at length. ***** Let me add another quote by U Narada himself from his preface to the Guide to Conditional Relations. This is really for Icaro: “In essence, Patthana deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed(sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant withut a break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions. So Patthana is the teaching of anatta.” ***** U Narada also writes in the conclusion to his introduction to the Patthana; “...So instead of simply arguing whether Pa.t.thaana, which is part of Abhidhamma, was expounded by The Buddha or not, this translated Text should be studied and understood. Then the facts should be tested as Pa.t.thaana deals with all the causes and effects that arise and cease in the continuity of beings at every instant of the day. Only then will one be in a position to make a personal decision as to whether The Buddha expounded Pa.t.thaana or not.” ***** I also wrote before that the other question, I think, might be that if the Abhidhamma was not taught by the Buddha, who else could it have been taught by? In the preface to the ‘Discourse on Elements’, Thein Nyun adds these comments: “The Abhidhamma is so abstruse, profound and subtle that only Enlightened Buddhas are able to give a complete exposition of it because of their Omniscience in three respects:- 1) perfect knowledge of all the things knowable which are a) conditioned; b) subject to change; c)characteristics or qualities of things; d)Nibbana, and e)concepts. 2) Perfect knowledge of the various kinds of expositions for teaching the above in detail. 3) Perfect knowledge of all beings who are worthy and unworthy of instruction for deliverence. ***** Howard, I know you’ve read most these comments before, but others may not have as they don’t all read the archives as a novel like RobM does. Icaro, I think it’s great if you introduce single Pali sentences from your reading of Dhammasangani in Pali and also Patthana with your rough translation or idea. We can add the ‘formal’ translation and discuss further. One sentence at a time;-)Thank you for this, I appreciate it. Whilst RobM has an ability to greatly simplify in his slides, (Newbies see RobM’s Notes and Slides in Files): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ we know that you, Icaro, have an equally great ability to complicate and well and truly keep us on our toes(Eagle, I think we need our Pali, Spanish, Sanskrit, English, Latin, French and Icish dictionaries handy;-). Muito Obrigado for all the encouragement!(hope it’s right this time;-)) Metta to all, Sarah ======= 24576 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the Sasana Hi RobK & All, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > Anagatavamsa commentary:"""'How will it occur? After my decease there will first be five disappearances. What five? The disappearance of attainment (in the Dispensation), the disappearance of proper conduct, the disappearance of learning, the disappearance of the outward form, the disappearance of the relics. There will be these five disappearances.< ***** Quoting just now from IB Horner’s preface to the Patthana reminded me that I meant to say that I thought this was a very good summary of the disappearance of the sasana and it makes me very interested to read the text in full. Thank you for posting the passage. I found it to be very credible because it conforms with and summarises what we read elsewhere in the Tipitaka and commentaries. You’ve already added other good references. I’d like to add a little more from just some recent considering of commentary passages. ***** We read in the Parinibbana Sutta about Subhadda, the recently ordained elderly bhikkhu’s joy on hearing the news about the Buddha’s parinibbana, having ‘conceived hostility towards the Blessed One’. I added more details about this from the Bahiranidana, commentary to the Vinaya before: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m5862.html Further in the commentary to the Parinibbana Sutta, we read about MahaKassapa’s concern for the preservation of the Dhamma: “ ‘In the teaching which the Blessed One established with effort, a thorn has so quickly become a major evil defect. This wicked man is indeed capable of growing and acquiring other companions like himself and so causing the teaching to disappear.........As flowers blown by the wind scatter here and there, so by the influence of people like this, as time passes, a rule of training or two will be lost from the Vinaya. A question or two will be lost from the Sutta; a difference between stages or two will be lost from the Abhidhamma, so in due course, when the root [basic text] is destroyed, we will become like demons. Therefore I will have the Dhamma and Vinaya recited. When it is done, this Dhamma and Vinaya will be immovable like the flowers tied together by strong string. It is for this reason that the Blessed One walked three leagues to meet me [see Ja 469]: gave me the ordination with three homilies [see SN11 220]; gave me his own robe from his body in exchange; talked about the path through a simile of the moon, by waving his hand in the sky, and made me realise the truth; gave the jewel of the whole teaching three times. While monks like me remain alive, let this evil man not prosper within our doctrine. I will have both the Dhamma and the Vinaya rehearsed before what is not Dhamma shines out and Dhamma is kept out, before those who speak what is not Dhamma become strong and those who speak Dhamma become feeble, before those who speak what is not Vinaya become strong and those who speak Vinaya become feeble. Then monks, each memorising what he is capable of himself, will tell what is legitimate from what is not legitimate. Then this evil man will by himself incur censure and will not be able to hold up his head again....’” ..... Earlier we read in the sutta itself (ch4), that the Buddha addresses the bhikkhus, encouraging them to check whether what they hear is in conformity with the Discourses and Discipline and about the four great references to be preserved. There is a lot of detail in the commentary, but I’ll just add one paragraph here: “But in the list [of four things] beginning with sutta, sutta means the three baskets which the three Councils recited. ‘Accordance with sutta’ means legitimate by being in accord [with what is explicitly legitimate]. ‘The word of a teacher’ means the commentary. ‘One’s own opinion’ means one’s own illumination through grasping an analogy or one’s consequent understanding. Of these, sutta should not be rejected, for he who rejects that rejects the Buddha himself. If what is legitimate by being in accord agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. If the word of a teacher agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. One’s own opinion is weakest of all, but if it agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. ‘The three Councils’ are the one of five hundred monks, the one of seven hundred, the one of a thousand. Only a sutta transmitted through them is authoritative; any other is a contemptible sutta, not to be accepted. Even though words and syllables appear in the latter, they should be known ‘as ones which do not appear in the Sutta, are not found in the Vinaya.’ “ ***** The commentary to the passage (ch 5) regarding veneration of the Tathagata also has a lot of detail. Material worship (aamisa-puujaa) “cannot sustain Buddhism (saasana) for a single day, or even for the time it takes to drink one helping of rice gruel. A thousand monasteries like the Mahaavihaara and a thousand stuupas like the Mahaacetiya cannot sustain Buddhism. The deed done belongs to the doer alone. It is right conduct (sammaapa.tipatti) that is suitable as honour to the Tathaagata, for that is what he desired and what can sustain Buddhism.” It continues with details about when monks, nuns and lay people do and do not “practise in accordance with dhamma”. ***** 24577 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the Sasana cont. On the decline of the sasana, I also thought about the dreams of King Pasenadi which we read about in the Mahaaupina Jaataka. Rob M summarised them in this post; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22408 “In a Jataka tale, the Buddha interpreted the sixteen dreams of King Pasendai to foretell what would happen when society decayed.” I’d like to expand on a couple of them from the text: RobM: 11. Men bartering butter milk for precious sandal wood. -> When society decays... the Dhamma will decay as monks and teachers seek money and gifts. ..... Text: “This dream too shall not have its fulfilment till the future - in the days when my doctrine is waning. For in day to come many greedy and shameless Brethren shall arise, who for their belly’s sake shall preach the very words in which I inveighed against greed! Because they have deserted by reason of their belly and have taken their stand on the side of the sectaries, they shall fail to make their preaching lead up to Nirvana. Nay, their only thought, as they preach, shall be by fine words and sweet voices to induce men to give them costly faiment and the like, and to be minded to give such gifts. Others again seated in the highways, at the street-corners, at the doors of kings’ palaces, and so forth, shall stoop to preach for money, yea for mere coined kahapanas, half-kahapanas, padas, or masakas. And as they thus barter away for food or raiment or for hahapanas or half-kahapanas my doctrine the worth whereof is Nirvana, they shall be even as those who bartered away for sour buttermilk precious sandal-wood worth 100, 000 peices....” ..... RobM: 13. Solid blocks of rock floated in the water. -> When society decays... nobles and wise men are scorned while upstarts shall thrive. Text: “This dream also shall not have its fulfilment before such times as those of which I have spoken. For in those days unrighteous kings shall show honour to the low-born, who shall become great lords, whilst the nobles sink into poverty. Not to the nobles, but to the upstarts alone shall respect be paid. In the royal presence, in the council chamber, or in the courts of justice, the words of the nobles learned in the law (and it is they whom the solid rocks typify) shall drift idly by, and not sink deep into the hearts of men; when they speak, the upstarts shall merely laugh them to scorn, saying, ‘What is this these fellows are saying?” So too in the assemblies of the Brethren; the words of such shall not sink deep, but drift idly by, - even as when the rocks floated upon the waters.” ***** Finally, I’m also thinking of the chapter in the Visuddhimagga on the destruction of the world cycles, in detail in ch X111,31 onwards. I think it’s also relevant to Nori’s thread on world affairs. We read about the omniscience of the Buddha with unlimited power to know the states related to hundreds of thousands of world cycles. “The intellect of the Buddhas is not caught by any intervening birth, nor do they miss their aim, but go straight to the wished-for place.” We can never underestimate the compassion of his teaching and its value. We read further in the Vism: 64 “What is the reason for the world’s destruction in this way? The [three] roots of the unprofitable are the reason. When any of the roots of the unprofitable of the unprofitable becomes conspicuous, the world is destroyed accordingly. When greed is more conspicuous, it is destroyed by fire. When hate is more conspicuous, it is destroyed by water - though some say that it is destroyed by fire when hate is more conspicuous, and by water when greed is more conspicuous. And when delusion is more conspicuous, it is destroyed by wind.” ***** “These six things, O monks, rarely appear in the world: Rare in the world is the appearance of a Tathaagata. Rare in the world is the appearance of one who teaches the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by the Tathaagata. Rare in the world is it to be reborn in the land of the noble ones. Rare in the world is the possession of unimpaired physical and mental faculties. Rare in the world is absence of stupidity and dullness. Rare in the world is a desire for wholesome qualities(ariyaayatane)” [AN, Bk of 6s, 135 ‘Six Rarities’, B.Bodhi transl] With metta and best wishes that we may all help preserve the sasana for a little longer through our sincere reflections, discussions and growth in understanding. Sarah ======= 24578 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:01am Subject: Bathtub musings 1 Dear group, I was sitting at my computer answering some emails when I heard the sound of running water. I realised that I'd started filling a bath, had become immersed in the emails, and forgotten the taps were still on. Leaping up, I dashed into the hall, tripped over the dog who was on his mat, scrambled to my feet, entered the bathroom and turned off the taps. The floor was wet, the bath mats soaked, and, too late, I saw some ants being washed down the floor drain. Don't you ever wonder about kamma? where and how it is recorded? what keeps track and how vipaka arises? how events are so enmeshed that the result happens to the right 'being'? how can it possibly be that my lack of mindfulness can, without intention or illwill, be the condition for terminal akusala vipaka for some unfortunate other beings (ants). Not to mention the same event being the combination of my akusala vipaka (falling over the dog) and his kusala vipaka from the same event (he thought it was a delightful new game). Perhaps I need a nice cup of tea... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 24579 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > Looking for out-of-print Pali books in 2nd hand bookstores could be a > time-consuming process, so it may not be such a good idea to ask > someone if they could do this voluntarily. Another idea might be to > ask if they could try to locate an antiquarian bookseller who may > happen to specialize in such books and could help. ..... Well, I’m sure many friends here will keep this in mind. ..... > I'm interested in > all kinds of hard-to-get books printed in Pali (grammatical, > commentarial, or otherwise) and can be in any script. Perhaps on some > of your Asian travels, you could make enquiries, get an address or > two, or make a purchase for me if you're certain it's in Pali. But > don't ever go out of your way, just if it happens to be convenient and > a fun thing to do. :-) .... Well, I have to tell you, Jim, that the only criterion on which I’d probably pass your ‘simplicity living’ test with flying colours is in the almost total avoidance of shopping. I have it down to such a fine art that I can go on a trip with a very large group of shopaholic Thai friends and return with the same small bag(nothing kusala in this, let me assure you). At the beginning of the SARS crisis here, I stocked up on basics and didn’t go into a shop for nearly 3 months. (Again, it's just attachment and aversion that leads to this unusual avoidance in Hong Kong). So I’m afraid that this wouldn’t be my idea of fun. However, I do get fun from bringing it to others’ attention as I’m doing here;-) On the subject of simplicity living, where I’d fail miserably would be in the bread making;-( I think I mentioned once before that I’ve long since accepted that driving and cooking are not for me in this life. Kom gave a kind response I remember. Perhaps it’s Ok, though, because I never eat bread or butter or even drink milk and could be quite happy living on congee for months if need be. Hey, you might give me a lot of points for not having driven a car for 20 years too???? I walk almost everywhere, (even if it’s in a city). I’m glad Jon would no longer need to be banned either....and then our hiking would score well too, I think. We have no idea where we’ll be living in retirement, but I’m more inclined towards ‘simplicity in the city’ for now, I’m afraid. I don’t mean to be frivolous, Jim (let’s blame it on Icaro’s DSG influence). I sincerely hope, as you know, that your ideas materialise in this area. Azita and I could recommend one or two disrobed bhikkhus living in real simplicity and solitude. The only problem, as I see it, is that they see the internet as an intrusion and have far longer spells with ‘black outs’ and without telephone lines, so I’m not sure how the communication would work.... ..... >So for the past 30 > years except for a 5 yr gap in the 80s I've been very fortunate in > having my own retreat. I do not personally know anyone else who lives > the way I do so I think my case may be rather unsual in this day and > age. .... Thanks for sharing more of your background, Jim. Most interesting. You are unusual in this regard, but I’m sure there are others too. It’s just that without internet we don’t hear from them. You’re obviously well suited and used to this lifestyle and the extended stay in Toronto last year must have been quite a change. I hope you don’t mind, but I can’t help asking what happens if you get sick or have an accident when your tel.lines are cut and you’re living alone and without contact with neighbours? Do you have some contingency measures? .... > The main difficulty I've been having for the past five years is with > the extent to which the internet has intruded into my daily life and > I've been trying to come up with the best solution and I have to come > up with one or I could end up in the hospital or with burned out eyes. .... I should point out to Icaro, that Jim has very limited eyesight since a childhood illnes, so it’s a little more serious than our ‘burned out eye’ problems, but you weren’t to know this. .... > It also interferes with my sense of living a quiet life of seclusion > which I really need, this is not what I had in mind when I first moved > here. I need to find out if the temporary phone disconnection helps. > I'll let you know what it was like when I come back online. If it > turns out to be beneficial, I'll have to consider doing it regularly. > Just need to find the right balance, no need to give up the internet > contacts altogether. ..... As you say, it comes down to ‘balance’ and knowing what suits us and is beneficial. I think it goes along with developing right understanding and we’ll spend this life and more finding this ‘balance’. I also share the ‘gridlock’ and weak will-power often, Jim. I think we all work out ways to manage that work best for us in this regard. For me, I know that exercise is very essential every day, with special exercises for the creaky arm at the moment. I print out posts on recycled paper to read away from the computer and so on. I try to have a break at the weekend. Perhaps you could ask the tel co to cut the lines on alternate days;-) ..... > When I was thinking about the idea a few weeks ago, it led me to > thinking about some larger social issues and how a Theravada society > might function within a larger Western society. The Theravada society > could be wide enough to include everyone from all walks of life, > including hermits in the forest. I'm sure there is so much more to > write about on this topic. .... You’ve written a little more in other messages, I see. Jim, how do you understand ‘simplicity’ as far as the Dhamma is concerned? Is there any Pali equivalent that you have in mind. I’d be interested to hear more, but only answer if you wish to and if it doesn’t become another gridlock for you;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24580 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:11am Subject: Bathtub musings 2 Dear group, ... after finally cleaning up the bathroom, getting into the bath and relaxing, I noticed I was singing an old folk song 'Brisbane Waters" - sad and irish and great in an echoing bathroom. I wonder why Buddhism doesn't have songs and hymms? 'Once in Royal Davids' City' doesn't quite feel right ... If Buddhist hymms are not common, it couldn't be because of lobha surely? - one can feel this for texts and chants just as much as for lovely songs. Is it because songs can manipulate emotions? But many of the lyrical texts do that as well. Is it because songs weren't part of the culture? Maybe not tea, maybe coffee .. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 24581 From: Elias Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:13am Subject: desire for sex All, If the mind is mindfull there's no chance that thoughts about sex, fantasies about sex, fantasies about selfsex (masturbating), or thoughts related to sex. However 'naken' may be there, because often we do 'visual reflect' over anatta, while doing this we do undress ourself or others we reflect over. If you ex become lost in a though, miss the presence, now desire for sex may arise. If you ex play a video game, and get lost into it, miss the presence, now desire for sex may arise. If you ex, see television, get lost into it, miss the presence, now desire for sex may arise. If we wish to reach the goal, if we wich to give up all forms of sex, all forms of desire, we need to give up things that makes the mindfullness impure, what makes the mindfulness impure? Ignorance, delusion etc. Objects outside the mind do not make the mindfullness decrese, but if we cannot be still inside, and cannot see with wisdom what things outside the mind are, we get into delusion, and get lost, miss the presence. /Elias 24582 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bathtub musings 1 Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > The floor was wet, the bath mats soaked, and, too late, I > saw some ants being washed down the floor drain. > Don't you ever wonder about kamma? .... Well, sometimes. But when I read this, I wondered about whether someone should be let loose in bathrooms at all, vaguely recalling a bathroom bubbled out on another occasion in Noosa...;-) .... >where and how it is recorded? .... Ah, that’s easy..some of us have good memories for trivia and bad memories for essentials. Put it down to accumulations and let me know if you get any answers after the Cooran weekend. (Talking of which, Azita, please share more about this paper you are presenting...!!) ..... > Perhaps I need a nice cup of tea... .... Sorry, I’ve had to snip the ‘essence’ - have to rush out while you enjoy your tea.....Glad Rusty’s happy, even if the poor ants...;-( Oh, for city living without anty concerns;-) metta, Sarah Look forward to Bathtub Musings2 - maybe a whole Bathtub Diary series??? ====== 24583 From: christhedis Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:17am Subject: Different meditation techniques. Hi all, I am wondering about different techniques for doing Vipassana meditation. I have done two 10-day courses. The first one was Goenka's course, scanning every part of the body and remaining equanimous to any sensations felt. The main theme of this technique seemed to be eradication of old sankharas. The second course used the Burmese technique of watching the rising and falling of the abdomen, and the main theme there was Mindfulness. I have read that Mindfulness is central to development along the path. I know all different techniques have the same ultimate goal, but why does Goenka's technique not seem to go into mindfulness at all? I am still trying to decide which technique to adopt. The Burmese one seems to make more 'obvious' sense in understanding impermanence and not-self. However, I think the Goenka one seemed easier and more comfortable for me. Appreciate any help or comments. Thanks, Chris. 24584 From: Elias Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 hello Christine As you wrote you sang on a song, therefore it had to arise in the mind in a way of desire. Therefore 'music' etc, is not a part of the life of monks, because it's as a wall that stands up, and makes the path very hard to continue. Ofcurse one may listen to music in the presence and not generating desire, so it will not arise later in the mind, to wish to hear it again. but that's very hard, and needs a very stable mindfullness. As for culture, 'buddhist songs' etc, have not been a part because it do not help with the path, more it's a hindrence. Music is a wordly pleasure, and as you might now, wordly pleasures is to be given up in the buddhist practice, (if we wish to become monks or are monks), laypeople however listen to music. But that might also depend on the laypeoples insight, experiences, and wisdom. Music, sounds is emptiness, it do not have a begining, nor and end, nor a precense, it's not one object, nor many. anatta. So there's not need for music to generate the path, more it's a hindrance. /Elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear group, > > ... after finally cleaning up the bathroom, getting into the bath > and relaxing, I noticed I was singing an old folk song 'Brisbane > Waters" - sad and irish and great in an echoing bathroom. I wonder > why Buddhism doesn't have songs and hymms? 'Once in Royal Davids' > City' doesn't quite feel right ... If Buddhist hymms are not common, > it couldn't be because of lobha surely? - one can feel this for texts > and chants just as much as for lovely songs. Is it because songs can > manipulate emotions? But many of the lyrical texts do that as > well. Is it because songs weren't part of the culture? > > Maybe not tea, maybe coffee .. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 24585 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:28am Subject: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hello Jim, and All, Thanks for your reply. I think the idea of a separate list should be given consideration, but I wonder if, initially at least, having a Simple Living for Theravadins corner on dsg might be worthwhile. My experience with a number of small lists is that they tend to dwindle and die - whereas a larger list can often shelter several separate interest groups and provide cross fertilisation, vitality and new members - either occasional 'popper-inners' or committed 'true believers'. This would also allow members to take 'leave of absence' for a few months without a huge impact on a tiny group. Whichever way it goes is fine with me. I have been catching up on the 'Solitary' thread (some great quotes!) and have found many posts point to new facets and reflections. Dhamma is not separate from life, whether we more easily find the detachment and aloneness in a crowded life or in one of physical solitariness and simplicity. I hope our accumulations would lead us to the way of living which is most conducive to beneficial study and practice. You make your own bread?! Good to hear. I used to bake my own before my daily paid work hours extended - my favourite was warm Banana bread using lashings of home made butter from our Jersey house cow, (which resulted in a significant weight gain. Currently not baking the bread, and no longer have the cow either). I was interested to hear this subject of simplifying how we live being discussed on a very early morning talk back radio programme. People of all religious backgrounds, and none, were troubled by the number of 'things' they owned - or, rather, the feeling that these 'things' really owned and oppressed them. The term they were using to discuss the solution to being overwhelmed by the clutter of possessions was 'asset stripping' - borrowed, no doubt, from the world of big business.. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Hello Christine, > > Thank-you for your encouraging words. I have been thinking that if > there is enough interest out there (at least five of us), it might be > worth starting a new yahoo group specifically for discussing these > matters and to share our ideas and experiences. I did some searching > of yahoogroups categories and I thought the 'voluntary simplicity' one > might fit the best -- simple living for Theravadins! This category is > found under Cultures & Community: Issues and Causes. There are 127 > voluntary simplicity groups listed and I went through them all and > didn't see any for Buddhists, let alone Theravadins. I also thought > that such a group could include couples in addition to solitaries. I > sometimes hear stories of couples giving up citylife and good jobs to > move to a simple life in the country. > > Btw. I make all my own bread. > > Best wishes, > Jim 24586 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different meditation techniques. Hi, Chris - In a message dated 8/26/03 6:20:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, charnett@y... writes: > Hi all, > > I am wondering about different techniques for doing Vipassana > meditation. I have done two 10-day courses. The first one was Goenka's > course, scanning every part of the body and remaining equanimous to > any sensations felt. The main theme of this technique seemed to be > eradication of old sankharas. The second course used the Burmese > technique of watching the rising and falling of the abdomen, and the > main theme there was Mindfulness. > > I have read that Mindfulness is central to development along the path. > I know all different techniques have the same ultimate goal, but why > does Goenka's technique not seem to go into mindfulness at all? > > I am still trying to decide which technique to adopt. The Burmese one > seems to make more 'obvious' sense in understanding impermanence > and not-self. However, I think the Goenka one seemed easier and more > comfortable for me. > > Appreciate any help or comments. > > Thanks, > Chris. > ============================ You seem to be assuming that the Mahasi labeling technique = mindfulness. If so, I think you are mistaken. Mindfulness is a mental concomitant, which arises during many mindstates, and is not peculiar to the Mahasi meditation style. Mindfulnes is "simply" the mental operation of not getting mentally lost, but rather of attending directly (not conceptually) to whatever arises at the moment. It fosters and is fostered by concentration, and it works hand-in-glove with so-called clear comprehension. The Goenka meditation on bodily sensations is a "mindfulness practice". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24587 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meaning of Ayya Hi Sese & All, --- sese2k3 wrote: > Dear all friends, > > I've joined this group for several weeks ago. But I am not the > active one.Now let me introduce myself once more. > > My name is Sese. I am from Jakarta, Indonesia. Now, I've worked at a > newspaper company for 2 years. My knowledge about Buddhism is > average, although several years ago I have joined a temporary > Silacarini program for about two weeks in Mendut Monastery, Indonesia. .... I've been meaning to welcome you to DSG and am so glad when others like Chris also welcome new members. I know that for some people, it can be difficult to send that first message. Thank you also for telling us where you're from and a little more. Eagle is also from near Jakarta and Jon spent a long spell on Java a long time ago too. We went back to visit an old Buddhist friend and teacher in Solo thirty years after his stay there. I'm sure he also has some solitary living stories, but we've never discussed them and much of what I wrote yesterday about my stay in Sri Lanka, was new to him too;-)) As Nina said, she lived in Jakarta and wrote some of her manuscripts there when her husband was posted there. I think I recall her having to entertain the Dutch queen who was visiting, (probably in the early 80s, Nina, when we were living in Austalia?? I'm trying to recall what you wrote from there - perhaps it was the beginning of Survey in another series?). ..... As I said to Eagle, I sincerely hope there are no more bomb attacks in Jakarta. I read this description in a newspaper about a man: " "He is the perfect family man. He is incapable of doing wrong. I have never seen him angry (and lived in the same house with him for three years). He is a soft spoken person who never raises his voice". He detested television and watched only news programmes, telling his mother-in-law that entertainment shows corrupted the mind. But he spent "long hours on the computer at night" she said." This was not a description of a DSG member, but of Hambali, the alleged mastermind of all the bomb attacks, including Bali and Jakarta, in Indonesia and the region an closely linked to Bin Laden. Appearances can be very deceptive and accumulations very mixed as Kom was saying before. I was glad to see your question on 'Ayya' and the Bhikkhuni-Sangha which Christine already gave a neat response to. Would you like to tell us why you were particularly interested in Ayya Khema or let us know of any other interests or questions from your Buddhist studies. With metta, Sarah ==== 24588 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:00am Subject: Internet-Connection Woes Hi, all - While I have internet access for the moment, I'm writing to let you know that if at some point you receive no communications from me for an extended period, my not replying to on-list or off-list posts, it is due to having technical problems. It seems that ever since I attempted to upgrade to AOL 9.0 there's been a big problem (or perhaps several) which I have been able to occasionally do an end-run around, such as at the moment. Most of the time, I'm unable to access e-mail etc from home, and none of the tech personnel (at AOL or a Cablevision [re: the cable modem]) have been any help - the only limited breakthroughs have been due to my own muddling. So, if you stop hearing from me, well, this is likely the reason. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24589 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Dear Nina (and Icaro), ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. N: I would like another option: object-condition is a condition by way of object for citta accompanied by hetu. It is experienced not only by citta but also by the accompanying cetasikas, thus by the accompanying hetus. There are so many conditions operating at the same time, I am not inclined to look for a foundation in particular. We can say, a hetu is a foundation for the citta that is rooted in it, just as the root is a foundation for a tree. Only in that way, as I see it. This is pretty much the way I was thinking about it when I wrote 'I think of them as two different conditions' or some such--but in much less detail, thanks, both. mike 24590 From: sese2k3 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: Meaning of Ayya Hello Christine, Thank you very much for your informations. It makes me understanding this problem clearly. Unfortunately we have controverse within Theravada tradition surrounding the term Bhikkhuni. It would make a confusion between us. I have read about Ayya Khema at the link you mentioned. I really admire Ayya Khema. There is one thing I want to know clearly about the term "nuns". Are they only commit 8 or 10 precepts at most? And how should we call a Bhikkhuni? May I call she "Bhante" too ? metta and peace, Sese --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sese, > > Ayyaa is a Pali word which means Lady (or Sister). More about Ayya > Khema can be found at this link: > http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6774/a_khema.htm > > There is controversy within the Theravada tradition surrounding the > term Bhikkhuni (female monk). There are some people who believe the > Bhikkhuni Sangha died out in Sri Lanka a thousand years ago, was not > revived, and is not able to be revived. Those who hold this view > allow that women can, at most, be eight or ten precept nuns. Thus, > the four-fold community of fully ordained nuns, fully ordained monks, > lay women and lay men, which the Buddha declared was integral to the > success of the Buddhadhamma, has been absent from all Theravada > countries for one thousand years. > > Other people believe the Bhikkhuni Sangha can be, and has been, > revived in Sri Lanka. Those who believe it legitimately can, and has > been, revived are working towards the objective of offering and > supporting this training pathway to increasing numbers of women. My > understanding is that there are now Bhikkhuni Training Centres in Sri > Lanka at Newgala, Panadura and Kalundewa (Dambulla) and Anuradhapura > in Sri Lanka. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time > 24591 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Hi Sarah ! --- Sarah " Let me add my bit too.... > > “In essence (...)Patthana is the > teaching of anatta.” --------------------------------------------------- Up the Irons! Exact! You see, at Buddha´s time there were many other instructors and gurus even at Magadha region - the best known were the Nigrodakappa (mentioned at Sutta Nipaata), also called Mahavir. The contact between them made arise such a intellectual boiling that all interested on their masters managed to get the teachings of all them as clear and objective as possible! Reading first the Dhammasangani and after the Patthana you can get some hints about such questionings about self and no-self. The Patthana begins with the statement of 24 Paccayas: after some reading you get how these paccayas interact with the Kusala and Akusala propositions as written in Dhammasangani - hetupaccayo and aramanapaccayo, etc, conjoined with Kusala and Akusala , hetu and ahetu Dhammas, etc, in my combinations! But all this can be a very pretty effott to translate... I am only at the beginninng of the Paccayas´description: I have got the opinion that such detailed reasonings about anatta came forth after many dialogs with Mahavir´s disciples, that preached the existence of Self with strong arguments! ----------------------------------------------------- Sarah:“...So instead of simply arguing whether > Pa.t.thaana, which is part of > Abhidhamma, was expounded by The Buddha or not > I also wrote before that the other question, I > think, might be that if the > Abhidhamma was not taught by the Buddha, who else > could it have been > taught by? ---------------------------------------------------- Put buddhism in a nutshell is not so simple as it seems! Putting aside legends, the Abdhidhamma was written circa 300 years after Buddha´s Parinibbana. It seems a resumed text-book (The Vibbhanga IS a text-book or primer at its strucutre!)of all dialogs, meditations, visions, reasonings (dreams and muttering too!)of the Sangha in all that golden years of Buddha preaching. The Dhammasangani and the huge Patthana are magnus opus of all humanity!!!!! --------------------------------------------------- Sarah: "Icaro, I think it’s great if you introduce single > Pali sentences from your > reading of Dhammasangani in Pali and also Patthana > with your rough > translation or idea. We can add the ‘formal’ > translation and discuss > further. One sentence at a time;-)Thank you for > this, I appreciate it." --------------------------------------------------- I will do it. Fortunately I´ve download ALL the Pali Tipitaka of www.tipitaka.org... and source texts will be always available! I will try also burn a CD with that material...but it belongs to the future! > Sarah: "Muito Obrigado for all the encouragement!(hope it’s > right this time;-))" -------------------------------------------------- That´s fine, Sarah. No problem! (Trimming as good as possible, Sarah!) Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24592 From: Sarah Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: food craving help Hi June, Thank you for replying here. --- june_tg wrote: > dear sarah, > > confidence comes from putting the buddha's teachings into practice, > one by one. first you start with a little faith in the > goodness/wholesomeness of his teachings (especially after your > attachments and longings have put you through hell), which will then > grow into a higher level of confidence once you have seen the effects > of putting to practice his teachings in your daily life. .... I think I agree with you if you're saying that confidence grows as direct experience and understanding of the teachings grows. I think people are so different, that whilst some feel they've been 'through hell' first, others don't have this experience at all. What do you think? ..... > although i should also say that even though we have confidence, > sometimes it is still very easy to get discouraged. but nothing > worthwhile comes easy, so i guess the best thing to do is to never > give up. the mind is a tricky thing. .... it's true and there have been some discussions on this. See under 'Discouraged' in UP anytime: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... > my food cravings are gone. they were impermanent after all. we just > need to have a little patience. .... That seemed like quick work. I'm always having food cravings at unusual and inappropriate times like in the middle of a yoga class today;-( .... > may you grow in your meditation practice (if you are meditating, or > may you start if you aren't)...and may you and everyone else here and > all living beings everywhere be released from all forms of suffering > as soon as possible. .... Thanks June and please keep in touch to let us know how your practice, confidence and food cravings are going;-) Look forward to anything else you may care to share too. Metta, Sarah ====== 24593 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bathtub musings 2 Dear chris: --- christine_forsyth: "Maybe not tea, maybe coffee .." ----------------------------------------------------- Prayers, Hymns and chants exist at the Mahayana Buddhism (at least), for example this Dharani: "...Suryo Suryo boya suryo boya suryo, somoko!" That´s an exerpt of a more longer and older prayer...but I can´t barely imagine what this means! Perhaps in sanskrit: "...Surupaya surupaya surupaya surupaya, svaha!" Hmmm... no use anyway!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24594 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Hi Mike: --- "m. nease" This is pretty much the way I was thinking about it > when I wrote 'I think of > them as two different conditions' or some such--but > in much less detail, > thanks, both." ---------------------------------------------------- There´s a lot goin´ on ! I am only at the beginning of the Patthanapali, but taking a look at further pages I can deduce that these two or more conditions (there are 24 Paccayas!) have got more modes of reasonigs, by the means of the conjoining with sets of Kusala and Akusala factors, hetu and ahetu dhammas and so on! I am with my hands full !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24595 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:36am Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I wonder > why Buddhism doesn't have songs and hymms? 'Once in Royal Davids' > City' doesn't quite feel right ... If Buddhist hymms are not common, > it couldn't be because of lobha surely? - one can feel this for texts > and chants just as much as for lovely songs. Is it because songs can > manipulate emotions? But many of the lyrical texts do that as > well. Is it because songs weren't part of the culture? I have a number of Buddhist CDs that I listen to in the car. My favourites are the "Mangala Sutta" and the "Chant of Metta". At the local Buddhist bookstore there are a wide variety of CDs, including "Morning Chanting", "Evening Chanting" and selections by a Malaysian Buddhist Choral Group. A couple of years back, I sponsored the pressing of a "Parita Pali" CD by Sayadaw U Silananda. I just dug one last spare copy out of a bottom of a drawer and will be mailing it to you within the next few days. Since I will already be mailing you a package, I might as well add another CD or two. What is your preference? Pali or English? Traditional or contemporary? CD or cassette? Enjoy! Metta, Rob M :-) 24596 From: Jeff Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:49am Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 Greetings Rob Maybe we can do an exchange? I don't have a cd burner, but I would be more than happy to tape the couple of cd's that I listed for Christine in exchange for the Pali, traditional chants, or whatever you could make time for. It would be much appreciated as I can only locate a few cd's here in Fresno, Ca. My email is JABergmann@a... Nemaste, Peace, and Love, Jeff 24597 From: Jeff Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:45am Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 Greetings Christine Here's a few cd's I own...makes my day a bit more mindful. :-) * "One Sound- Traditional Buddhist Music from Tibet, China, Vietnem, Korea, Sri Lanka, and Japan"/Ellipsis Arts * "The Lamas Chant- Songs of Awakening" by Lama Gyurme and Jean- Philippe Rykiel/Sony Music Entertainment * "The 14th Dalai Lama in Hawai'i"/Sakyadhita * "Sacred Chants of Buddha- Music for Inner Peace by Craig Pruess/Heaven On Earth Music Limited Nemaste, Love, and Peace, Jeff "One good thing about music...when it hits you feel no pain..." -Bob Marley 24598 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Dear Icaro, op 25-08-2003 20:12 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > There?s more to come!!!! N: Welcome. I: That could be very difficult to assimilate because > it is not a crude idealism (the object only exists > really in our minds)but better an Antinominalism ( > objects as mind stuff are names AND things - ?sed > nominem ET res? - nama/rupa). Citta receives the Rupa > external our door-senses as an object perceived by the > eye, the ear, etc, and as a concept of mind itself! N: When you receive your Christmas present (anumodana to Rob M, he is so generous), you will see many philosophical discussions about the experience of an object, about concepts etc. When someone is involved with special philosophical points of view (phenomenology, also in a more moderate form, Plato, Aristoteles, etc.) it is understandable that he wants to compare with Buddhism. However, as I see it, it will not work. Nor will the scientific approach of experience help. The goals are different. So, I do not know how to react to the above, it is different from what I understand about the experience of objects one at a time. As I said, it is difficult to really know what the visible is, that which appears through the eye-door. It is difficult to know what a doorway is. I do not claim to understand these things, but let me be the parrot, as our friend Num says, imitating what I learnt: when your eyes are closed and then you open them, something appears what was not there before. There is not yet an image, but through eyes only: just colour or what is visible. The same through ears: when you do not pay attention to the source or the meaning of the sound, but just the characteristic of sound is heard, you can consider the meaning of audible object. This is the way to learn what sense objects are. No need to think of them as concepts in the mind. It would be wonderful if Jon would butt in and add something. I like to be reminded. When you learn about the processes of citta (viithi cittas), you will know that just colour, just sound are also experienced in a mind-door process following the sense-door process. You will also learn that even before we know what something is there are already akusala javanacittas. That is so because of accumulations and the niyaama of the order of cittas succeeding one another so fast. You could look at the Samyutta Nikaya, Salayatanavagga, right from the beginning, about the objects experienced through the senses and the lobha which follows. The world (loka) is impermanent, it crumbles away (lujjati). These suttas are a real help, and you have them all now within reach!!! When different sense objects are experienced, we do not think of a concept yet, there are other processes later on which think of a thing, of the whole of impressions. As you will see (from your Christmas present) there can be much confusion as to pa~n~natti. Different people mean different things by it. Nina. 24599 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahasa Indonesia. Selamat,apa kabar. I was so glad to hear from you. Could you tell us more about the group discussions you have? How did the gold and silver for monks discussion continue, you mentioned on Pali list? With appreciation, Nina. op 26-08-2003 02:35 schreef nana_palo@c... op nana_palo@c...: > Dear Eagle, please don't hesitate to contact me.