24800 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:38am Subject: Cooran Weekend 30/31 August, 2003. Hello All, The Cooran weekend was the usual source of spiritual refreshment and sustenance. Azita and I held things up a little at the beginning. She is a member of nursing staff at the Cairns Base Hospital, so naturally I had to give her a cuppa and a short tour of Logan Hospital. Kieran (some will know him previously as Sundara) was also able to come. Lovely to see dsg-ers Andrew, KenH and Steve again - in total, there were eight of us staying for the weekend and one extra dropped in for Sunday morning. The discussions were vigorous and wide ranging, often with everyone speaking at the same time (KenH was the kindly Moderator - maybe a Zen Stick, and a few whacks next time, will help keep order and 'focus the attention'?). I remember thinking at one point "It is marvellous! It is amazing! truly the most abundant rupa is Sound!" Andy Mc. brought his astronomical telescope and tripod and Saturday Night was Mars Watch night. It was fascinating to see the craters/discolourations on its surface, and also on the surface of the moon. No little green Devas dancing there though. The Milky Way, the Southern Cross and the occasional shooting star were blazing when seen from that cold, isolated hillside in the Queensland bush. The discussion on Accumulations was clarifying for me (stimulus was half a dozen posts from the UP from Jon, Larry, Mike and Kom). One question arose out of a quote Larry had used from the Atthasalini at the end of his post no.12544. "In dependence on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the destiny of beings without legs, with two legs, four legs, many legs, VEGETATIVE, spiritual, with perception, without perception, with neither perception nor without perception." Does this mean kamma can cause some beings to become plants, trees or vegetables!? Or does it mean, beings can be born as living beings but with a mind afflicted with a vegetative state? Jim, Suan, and Sarah may be interested to hear that there was interest in discussing supports for lay spiritual practice, and I'm sure this will be a frequent topic at future meetings. We found the old "O.K. there is no control, but there has to be SOME choice" topic was discussed quite heatedly again - The inherent pleasantness/unpleasantness of objects arose, and Anatta, particularly in regard to rebirth/ kamma/nibbana got a mention - as well, there was a feeling expressed by some of not really understanding Dependent Origination. And KenO might be interested to know that there was vigorous discussion, and not necessarily agreement, about Luminous Mind. Reg had brought an article "Relinquishing 'Me' and 'Mine'" from Forest Sangha newsletter, in which The Buddha was quoted as having said, "This mind is naturally radiant and pure, it's only defiled by transitory defilements that come from without." And a quote from Ajahn Chah saying that "It's already peaceful by itself, inherently peaceful, it only moves and shakes when it's contacted ny sense impressions." And a further quote from Ajahn Mun, "This pure, radiant mind is like the sun, and the defilements are like the clouds that come over and obscure the sun.' I hope the others will soon post their thoughts and memories of the weekend's discussions - I'll end for now and hope I haven't rambled on too long - tired and happy ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 24801 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:44am Subject: Yahoo getting mixed up... Dear Friends, Both Jon and I are finding our messages for the last couple of days have been mixed up and sometimes quite delayed before reaching the list. Just like the old days! If it happens to yours, just be patient, continue posting as usual and no need to repost if they are slow showing. Metta, Sarah ======= 24802 From: buddhafanclub Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:13am Subject: Bodhisattva in Theravada I am a fan of Gotama Buddha and his teachings. I happened to read the following at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhamma-list/message/14593?source=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------- *Although the Theravada holds that anybody can be a Bodhisattva, it does notstipulate or* *insist that all must be Bodhisattva which is considered not practical. The decision is left to the* *individual whether to take the Pathof the Sravaka or of the Pratyekabuddha or of the* *Samyaksambuddha. But it is always clearly explained that the state of a Samyaksambuddha is superior and that the other two are inferior. Yet they are not disregarded.* ------------- There are many Buddhists, both bhikkhus and laymen, in Sri Lanka, Myanmar,Thailand and Cambodia which are regarded as Theravada countries, who take the vow or resolution to become Buddhas to save others. They are indeed Bodhisattvas at different levels of development. Thus one may see that in Theravada countries all are not Sravakas. There are Bodhisattvas as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Question I have never been to so called Teravada countries. Do you know any theravadin who take the resolution or vow to become a Buddha around you? Or Have you ever heard of such a living person ? looking forward to hearing from you soon. from ok 24803 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/30/03 8:34:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "Our normal "world" consists entirely of mental constructs of > constructs of constructs - a kind of house of cards, the elementary > building blocks of which aren't even at all what they seem to be, but > simply fleeting, insubstantial, completely dependent phenomenal > flashings." > > Hi Howard, > > I think the key _name_ here is "phenomenal". No matter how you slice it > a name is a mental event and so has a characteristic of becoming, the > same as a feeling, mental image (meaning), affection, or intention. > However, if I said names exist then I went too far. My intention was > simply to say they are included in the khandhas and have a > characteristic that "becomes". Regarding extremes of "existence" and > "nonexistence" I refer you to a voluminous post by Sarah today on this > subject. Below is a small snippet: > > "First straight from the Sammohavinodanii (commentary to the Vibhanga, > 2nd text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka)2281: > > "'iti bhavadi.t.thisannissitaa vaa ti ('so they are either dependent on > the view of existence'): they are either dependent thus on the eternity > view; for it is the eternity view which is here 'the view of > existence'(vibhava-di.t.thi). For owing to the fact that all (wrong) > views are included by the eternity and annihilation views (together), > all these beings who hold (wrong) views are dependent on those two kinds > of (wrong) view. This also is said: 'this world, Kaccaayana, mostly > depends on two things, on existence and non-existence' (Sii17); and > here, 'existence'(atthitaa) is eternity, 'non-existence' is annihilation > (uccheda). This firstly is the habitat of beings that are ordinary men > dependent on the process."" > > Larry (Lllll airrrr eeeeee) > =========================== As I see it, conventional existents arise and cease conventionally, whereas actual existents arise and cease actually, though, of course, not as separate, independent entitites. Ultimately there is no such thing as the tree in my garden, and, thus, there is no tree to arise, change, and cease. Conventionally, there *is* a tree in my garden; it wasn't always there, but grew from seed to sprout to tree, it is changing all the time, and it will eventually wither, die, decay,and utterly cease. What is this entire last scenario? It is actually just a scenario, a story. But it is a well grounded story, the reality of which is an extraordinarily complex structured, patterned, dynamic flow of actual interrelated phenomena that are not merely conventional. All the conventional arising, changing, and ceasing in the "story" is derivative from actual arising, changing, and ceasing, which is exactly what makes the story well grounded. Now what I have said here applies in the same way to names and all other abstractions, although the more abstract the concept, the closer one is to the concept end of the percept-concept spectrum, and, accordingly, the less directly the concept seems to even conventionally partake of the transitoriness of the actualities it subsumes. So, the alleged referents of some concepts such as 'circularity' seem to be unchanging, whereas as a particular circle-percept, such as a ring of dancing people does seem to change (in size, shape, and existence). Such a changing circle is actually a sequence of circle-percepts, each of which is a single thought which sums up a host of actual visual images. It is all hugely complex. Are there trees, grass, mountains, and names? Yes - but conventionally. Do they arise, change, and cease? Yes, conventionally - and derivatively, based on the arising, changing, and ceasing of a multitude of interrelated actual phenomena (paramattha dhamma). Are there trees, grass, mountains, and names? No - not actually. Do they arise, change,and cease? No, not actually, for they do not actually exist. The middle way of dependent arising - and, BTW, I *love* the Kaccayanagotta sutta - is a truth directly about paramattha dhammas and their conditionality and emptiness. It applies only conventionally and derivatively to conventional entities. With metta, Howard (so-to-speak ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24804 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Intelligence or wisdom --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, Meanwhile, off for some nice safe dreams after analysing the Pali > dictionary;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Hi Sarah, You analyze the Pali dictionary? That would put me to sleep also!!;- ). I will post some more about wonderful and terrible Egypt later; school starts tomorrow and I am quite busy. Stay tuned...and don't be afraid! ;-). Metta, James 24805 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Dear Friend Welcome to the list, and thanks for the interesting question. It raises some points that have not been discussed in great detail so far on this list. --- torloff87048 wrote: > ... > I'm not even sure that I'm asking the right questions here. What > I'm hoping for is someone to lead me through all the cittas, > mind-objects and cetasikas that generally occur during speech. The > more details the better! Take a simple example, like, "I'm going > to the store," and analyze it on the most microscopic level > possible, making whatever assumptions necessary to pin things down. Your question is fine, but it's not one I have the knowledge to really answer ;-)). I'm going to leave the detail to the Abhidhamma experts around here. I'd just like to make some farily general comments to get the discussion started. In the course of uttering a single sentence there would be uncountable experiences through the mind door and each of the sense doors, and each such experience would be part of a process of cittas that includes certain cittas (the javana cittas) that are either kusala or akusala. To my understanding, the vast majority of these experiences/processes of cittas would be mind-door processes (moments of thinking); the sense-door experiences would be relatively few (but still a large number in absolute terms). We can ignore for the moment the bhavanga cittas occurring in between the various processes. Again as I understand it, the vast majority of javana cittas arising during the day, such as 'ordinary' moments of seeing and thinking, are akusala of one kind or another (not necessarily strong akusala, but akusala nonetheless). From this I would extrapolate that even at a moment of doing a 'kusala act' of some kind, there will still be many, many akusala cittas arising among the (relatively few) kusala ones. I don't know if this partly answers your question. Thanks for the interest. Jon 24806 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi ‘Torloff’, Welcome to DSG from me as well. Some of our members, esp. the Abhidhamma enthusiasts, will be delighted to see your very detailed first post. I hope you receive many responses. I’m just going to give a sign-post answer for now;-) --- torloff87048 wrote: > > I wonder if one of you that is a student of the Abhidhamma could help me > understand how to apprehend verbal intimation in strict Abhidhamma > terms. <...> > I'm not even sure that I'm asking the right questions here. What I'm > hoping for is someone to lead me through all the cittas, mind-objects > and cetasikas that generally occur during speech. The more details the > better! <...> Of course you’re asking the right questions. Any questions or comments or answers related to the (Pali) Tipitaka and commentaries are very right;-) As you’ve asked for as many details as possible on this very complex topic, may I recommend you take a look at these past posts, most or all written in a series by Nina translating and adding to material discussed by Abhidhamma teachers in Thailand. Just click on the links and let us know whether they are helpful. There are very few new members to DSG I’d recommend them to, but you’re obviously very familiar with all the terminology. ***** Intimation ( through body and speech) 19056, 19105, 19144, 19194, 19217, 19289, 19364, 19454, 19541 ***** Meanwhile I’d also be glad if we could encourage you to share a few comments about yourself such as which country you’re based in and how you’ve come to have such detailed Abhidhamma knowledge. Greatly looking forward to more of your contributions. Metta, Sarah ====== 24807 From: m. nease Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma My off-list response failed, so: : 64.157.4.78 failed after I sent the message. Remote host said: 554 delivery error: dd Sorry your message to torloff87048@y... cannot be delivered. This account has been disabled or discontinued [#102]. - mta110.mail.sc5.yahoo.com Hi Torloff(?), Great questions, in my opinion, very pertinent to abhidhamma in daily life. I respond off-list because I'm a bare beginner and not even slightly qualified to answer. I look forward to competent responses. Meanwhile: ----- Original Message ----- From: torloff87048 To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma > Does this mean that the cittas which have the original object (the welfare of the > other) are continually arising and falling during the act of speech? Do other cittas > with different objects have to intervene in order to access the individual words and > speak them? As I'm beginning to grasp this (maybe), the answer to both is 'certainly'. The 'welfare' cetasika(s) (alobha-adosa? not sure) may remain predominant throughout the statement but a practically infinite number of other cittas and cetasikas--kusala and akusala--must certainly arise and subside with their respective cittas through all the doors before the statement is finished*. By the way, I think that kusala is very rarely predominant--subtle akusala almost always rules for us puthujjanas. Your other questions are more complicated and I look forward to reading competent responses. I don't remember seeing your address here before--glad to meet you and that you're reading the CMA--looking forward to more. mike *"The life-span of a citta, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkha.na)...is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to the commentators, in the time that it takes for lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of mind moments can elapse." Bhikku Bodhi in CMA 24808 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:41am Subject: Journey To Nibbana Dear Dhamma Friends, In history, there have been a lot of changes. Every locality has its own history even though it may not have been recorded. History is record of changes. There are many histories as time passes by. In history, there had been a lot of countries, kings, queens, princes, princesses, presidents, prime ministers, leaders, groups, tribes, clangs and so on. Among these groups, there had been huge changes. There had been many political systems. When one arises others fall away. Political systems are also subjected to change. For example, communism when it first arose, seemed to be a strong system. But, later it became nearly extinct. Whatever the history has existed, there has been a community, which has been very strong, united, well-disciplined, great, noble and still serving to people of all origions pointing the right path. This community is Sangha. Sangha maintain Buddha's teachings and doctrines. These great teachings are Dhamma. These Dhamma are extremely precious and ever excel other gems and jewelery. Gems and jewelery are precious because of their rarity. Arising of true Dhamma is an extremely rare instance. These Dhamma were preached by The Buddha, The Blessed One, The Exalted One, The Supreme One, The Enlightened One. To become a Sammasambuddha is extremely difficult. Bodhisattas have to complete their perfections for many many lives. When they were matured enough to attain Magga, they reconsidered every possible thing and with their great Karuna or compassion, they decided to fulfil perfections to become Sammasambuddha. They have been completing perfections even before they receive Vyaditta or Sammasambuddha's prediction of becoming Sammasambuddha. Nine Asenkheyya have to lapse just for their wish. Another seven Asenkheyya have to pass to do determination ( Adhitthana ) to become Sammasambuddha. After Vyaditta, they still have to fulfil perfections for a very very long time. So said that ''To become a Sammasambuddha a Satta has to be able to climb mountains of razors ( sharp knives ) and swim across seas of great fire.'' Anyway, due to their great effort, there have been a great piles of Dhamma, with which each Satta can travel safely on the journey to their total liberation. Liberation means release from any attachment. That totally liberated state is called Nibbana, which is one of ultimate realities. If we can start the journey to Nibbana now, it is not too late to achieve the goal of attaining that entirely peaceful and totally liberated state called Nibbana. May you all start your journey to Nibbana in time. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 24809 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:41am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 10 ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:44:51 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 10 Meanings of dhamma, no 10. The Saddaniti gives more definitions of dhamma. It explains dhamma as what is correctness, what is suitable: The Saddaniti then explains dhamma as object: < "Mana~nca pa.ticca dhamme ca uppajjati manovi~n~naa.nan"ti-aadiisu visaye. Dependent on the mind-door and objects arises mind-consciousness, in such passages dhamma refers to object.> N: This passage occurs for example in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, XXXV, 107, Loko: the world). The words citta, mano and vi~n~naa.na are the same in meaning, they are the paramattha dhamma that is citta, consciousness. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (II, Nidaana-sa.myutta, Ch VII, 61: However, in different contexts there is a differentiation of terms. The aggregate of consciousness is called vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, and it includes all cittas. For seeing-consciousness, the word cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is used. Mano can stand for mano-dhaatu, mind element, and this includes the citta which is the mind-door. Cittas which experience objects through the senses and the mind-door arise in processes: the eye-door process, the other sense-door processes and the mind-door process. In between these processes bhavangacittas (life-continuum) arise and fall away, and these do not experience an object through one of the six doors. Their function is preserving the continuity in the life of an individual. The last bhavangacitta arising before the mind-door process begins is the mind-door. The mind-door is the means through which citta experiences an object in that process. Thus, returning to the relevant passage: "Mana~nca pa.ticca dhamme ca uppajjati manovi~n~naa.nan"ti.... Dependent on the mind-door and objects arises mind-consciousness... ****** Nina. 24810 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] cankers Dear Icaro,Sarah, Larry. an interesting text. op 30-08-2003 20:19 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Katame dhammaa aasavavippayutta saasava N: I have it at § 111: which are the dhammas that are disconnected (vippayutta: not accompanied by) with aasavas but can have aasavas? Next para: only the lokuttara dhammas and nibbana have nothing to do with aasavas. Thus we have to study further in what sense they are saaasava. You translate: vippayutta as : flow at separate ways. And saasava, you translate: connected with aasava. sampayutta:associated, citta and cetasikas arising together. vippayutta, dissociated: rupa is always vippayutta for nama, they are not closely associated like citta and cetasika. rupa is not associated with asavas but it can also be saasava: involved with asava, the object of asava. Atthasalini : I, p. 64: The objects do not arise at the same time as the aasavas themselves. The word occurring together may be confusing. Coming back to the footnote in Dsg: < saasavas: dhammas proceeding with aasavas, and which have made onself their object (attaanam aaramma.na.m katvaa).> Now attaana.m is not only accusative, it can be gen. or dative pl: for themselves. When accusative: they have made the asava itself object. But why singular? Lots of questions. Next para in Atthasalini makes it clearer, about the knots and floods:< Dhammas which are liable as objects to be overwhelmed by the floods are termed "subject to floods". Only those dhammas which are the objects of floods should be taken.> Or knots (tie or gantha): By the way, in the Book of Analysis aasava is translated as defilement, very confusing so many different translations for one term. Pali is not a luxury. Dispeller of Delusion I, p. 34: the five khandhas as objects of clinging, § 132 : Gocara means the objective field, the object. Dispeller II, p. 40, the same is said about right speech. Now I try again the subco. Nina. 24811 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:41am Subject: subco Vis 8. Subco Vis. no 8. 8. dhammasabhaavapa.tivedho naama pa~n~naaya aave.niko sabhaavo, na tenassaa koci vibhaago labbhatiiti aaha The penetration of the specific nature of dhammas is truly the unique characteristic of understanding, and he said that it therefore has not got any division, with the words, ``dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.nena taava ekavidhaa''ti. ³Because of its characteristic of penetrating the individual nature of dhammas it is just so of one kind.² lujjanapalujjana.t.thena loko vuccati va.t.ta.m, tappariyaapannataaya loke niyuttaa, tattha vaa viditaati lokiyaa. Because of the meaning of crumbling away * the world is called the cycle (of birth and death); it (understanding) is engaged with the world, since it is included in it, and there it is known as mundane (understanding). tattha apariyaapannataaya lokato uttaraa utti.n.naati lokuttaraa. Since it is not included in it, it is beyond the world **, it has overcome it, and this means supermundane. lokuttaraapi hi maggasampayuttaa bhaavetabbaa. Supermundane understanding should be brought about by being associated with the Path..... vipassanaapariyaayopi tassaa labbhatevaati lokuttara-ggaha.na.m na virujjhati. (....) attaana.m aaramma.na.m katvaa pavattehi saha aasavehiiti saasavaa, Since it has made itself as object (for them) it proceeds along with the cankers, and this is the meaning of subject to cankers. aaramma.nakara.navasenapi natthi etissaa aasavaati anaasavaa. Also because of the object *** it does not have cankers and this is the meaning of cankerfree. aadi-saddena aasavavippayuttasaasavadukaadiina.m sa"ngaho da.t.thabbo. With the word etc. (coming after ³subject to cankers and free from cankers²) a classification should be seen of canker-free and subject to cankers as a dyad, etc. **** English: The penetration of the specific nature of dhammas is truly the unique characteristic of understanding, and he said that it therefore has not got any division, with the words, ³Because of its characteristic of penetrating the individual nature of dhammas it is just so of one kind.² Because of the meaning of crumbling away * the world is called the cycle (of birth and death); it (understanding) is engaged with the world, since it is included in it, and there it is known as mundane (understanding). Since it is not included in it, it is beyond the world **, it has overcome it, and this means supermundane. Supermundane understanding should be brought about by being associated with the Path... Since it has made itself as object (for them) it proceeds along with the cankers, and this is the meaning of subject to cankers. Also because of the object *** it does not have cankers and this is the meaning of cankerfree. With the word etc. (coming after ³subject to cankers and free from cankers²) a classification should be seen as canker-free and subject to cankers as a dyad, etc. **** * lujjati, to crumble has a word association with loko, world. See Kindred Sayings IV, 52, The world. It is impermanent. **There is a word association: between loko, world, uttara, beyond, and lokuttara, supermundane. *** This is nibbaana. Nina. 24812 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? Dear Icaro op 31-08-2003 02:33 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > you must take the Noble Path with good > intentions and a well disposed mind to obtain at least > the more basic jhanas. N: ??? Perhaps I misunderstand you here. jhana is not necessary to develop insight, moreover it is extremely difficult. Only very few people can, and at this time? Who knows. Nina. 24813 From: Elias Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 0:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? all, as i've understood, everyone can develop jhanas and attain nibbana. to attain nibbana you have to develop the jhanas to its fully. it's difficult to attain jhanas because we do not have a concentrated mind and live with desire and uncontentment. As for a layperson it would be diffucult to attain nibbana, as the mind is often distracted by obstacles. But even a layperson, or anyone can develop jhanas if they can develop an concentrated mind. /Elias > N: ??? Perhaps I misunderstand you here. > jhana is not necessary to develop insight, moreover it is extremely > difficult. Only very few people can, and at this time? Who knows. > Nina. 24814 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:34pm Subject: Search for 'Cause of Rebirth Samsara'- A triviality. Dear Robert, Thanks very much, it is all well put and fits exactly into the correct and very wise way to answer that question. (Please also note: I have change the subject title). You know I actually have come to that conclusion as I scoured many places for the closest answer. It is amazing that you hit on the right answer very quickly. Your answer really refocus or more correctly - draws it to a very sharp & acute focus. To summarize, as long as one understands (I did not use - 'believe' which can mean unreasoned /fanatic trust & belief) 'Samsara (Rebirth Cycle), cause & effect or in a nutshell - Dhamma' are all very real and functioning, focusing on the goal of Nibanna is, what is important. Why & how is it like that? - is only an icing on a cake, so to speak- really unimportant. But we have to be true to ourselves and not to skirt or shelve the question. I believe we do not do that, in search for Nibanna (I almost say - (which I usually do) - search for truth, that is what set me on this question). Also there may or may not be a real answer to it. A person with the arrow /bullet in his body does not question who, why & how the arrow /bullet was shot. Surviving is the foremost. Especially, if on a huge battlefield, how can you tell whose arrow /bullet it is? Maybe, no real answer. What use towards salvation? Nothing or not much. Also (1)'dukkha (suffering)' effect of injury & dying is here - upfront, real & functioning and we know or need to know (point#2, 3 & 4) - (2)the cause (not the very origin-who shot it? A triviality) of this 'dukkha', (3)the cessation of this 'dukkha', (4)the way (the how to) to end 'dukkha'. Thus forming, what I understand as the four noble truths. I think you are very wise and helpful towards my quest and quite pivotal in my life direction setting. I think I will put that question in my backburner or even dump it out altogether, knowing that there may never be any real question and the answer, if ever found, may be of no consequence. Thank you again. Metta Eddie Lou. 24815 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/31/03 8:54:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Again as I understand it, the vast majority of javana cittas arising > during the day, such as 'ordinary' moments of seeing and thinking, > are akusala of one kind or another (not necessarily strong akusala, > but akusala nonetheless). From this I would extrapolate that even at > a moment of doing a 'kusala act' of some kind, there will still be > many, many akusala cittas arising among the (relatively few) kusala > ones. ======================== As much as many of us "modern folk" would tend to balk at this, and call it imbalanced, and pessimistic, I am certain that it is absolutely correct. The very fact that we are "in" samsara, where dukkha is central, requires that at the level of actual experience, the paramatthic level, the three poisons must be primary, and most kammic states must be akusala. Because of this fact, it is truly a great boon to us that the possibility of change, radical change, is still open to us at any split-second moment. By studying and contemplating the Dhamma, and by engaging in cultivation as we (individually) understand the Buddha to have instructed, we plant the seeds any one of which may blossom into the tree of freedom when conditions are right. Then it doesn't matter that the overwhelming aggregate of states are akusala - the one moment of liberating wisdom saves the day. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24816 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? Dear Nina: N: "??? Perhaps I misunderstand you here. > jhana is not necessary to develop insight, moreover > it is extremely > difficult. Only very few people can, and at this > time? Who knows." ----------------------------------------------------- Nina, I am just taking on account the first class of Jhaanas - connected with pitti-sukhi at a level of discourse. I was trying to stand that the mere survival desiring can give us an illusion of insight - a poor dog anxious to receive an aasava´s tasteful bone... but at the end there´s no bone and no giving at all coming from Aasava - the matter of the question is at an other level of Pañña. "...And the poor dog gets none". And perhaps he becomes a mahayanist by heart! As a matter of fact, taking the Noble Path is a serious decision , to be take with the best of our thoughts and feelings. Even the more common Jhaana totally imbricated with a mundane pitti-sukhi viewpoint maybe is far beyond our forces. To be a Sukha-vipassaka is more adequate to human minds at present age! (And I can remember much more nursery rhymes...hahah!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24817 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Howard, I can agree with this: H: "Are there trees, grass, mountains, and names? Yes - but conventionally. Do they arise, change, and cease? Yes, conventionally - and derivatively, based on the arising, changing, and ceasing of a multitude of interrelated actual phenomena (paramattha dhamma)." I would further say that almost all concepts are mis-identifications in the sense that identity is identical. Further, concepts *appear* to be, in some sense, outside a process of becoming. Clearly the Buddha's teaching is based on the understanding of impermanence; dukkha and anatta are predicated on that. Can we agree that the root of this problem of dukkha lies with sanna? Sanna is unable to penetrate the general characteristics, impermanence in particular, and so fails to correctly understand experience. The middle level of understanding, "consciousness", does a little better but doesn't actually understand the individual characteristics, doesn't _see_ impermanence. Put another way, I would say sanna understands experience _as_ concept, "consciousness" understands experience _with_ concept, and panna understands experience without ( or with less) concept, in other words nibbana, the signless. Larry 24818 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? Hello Elias, You may be interested in this short article: "Vipassana & Jhana: What The Masters Say" by Ven. Visuddhacara "Renowned and experienced masters of Buddhist meditation are generally agreed on the point that Jhana is not necessary or a prerequisite for Vipassana Meditation. For example, in the book Living Buddhist Masters (Formerly published under BPS, this book has since been retitled Living Dharma by Shambala) by Jack Kornfield, all the 12 masters written about, clearly stated or indicated that one can do Vipassana without cultivating any Jhana. Some teach Vipassana relying only on Khanika Samadhi or Access Concentration (upacara samadhi). Others teach both Samatha, Jhana and Vipassana but emphasised that one need not attain Jhana to do Vipassana. Yogis can switch to Vipassana after attaining a moderate level of concentration which is sufficient to overcome The Five Hindrances. Furthermore, most cautioned against attachment or stagnation in Jhana and emphasised the need to do Vipassana. Some of these Masters too have been monks from their early youth and are adept not only in meditation but also scholarship. They have studied the Tipitaka, Commentaries and Sub-commentaries in the original Pali and thus speak with the authority of both the scriptures and personal practice and experience. Some have practised in forests for many years and are well-versed with both Samatha and Vipassana." The Masters quoted are: Achaan Chah, Achaan Dhammadaro, Achaan Jumnien, Achaan Buddhadasa, Achaan Naeb, and Venerable Matara Sri Ñanarama Mahathera. http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/zennun/vip-jhana.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > all, > > as i've understood, everyone can develop jhanas and attain nibbana. > to attain nibbana you have to develop the jhanas to its fully. > it's difficult to attain jhanas because we do not > have a concentrated mind and live with desire and uncontentment. > > As for a layperson it would be diffucult to attain nibbana, > as the mind is often distracted by obstacles. But even a layperson, > or anyone can develop jhanas if they can develop an concentrated mind. > > /Elias > > > > N: ??? Perhaps I misunderstand you here. > > jhana is not necessary to develop insight, moreover it is extremely > > difficult. Only very few people can, and at this time? Who knows. > > Nina. 24819 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, Re: concept not being an object of insight, I think you are supporting your position with a concept of concept. Do you feel secure standing on that ground? Larry 24820 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:41am Subject: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Chapter 8 The Eradication of Akusala Kamma by the Sotåpanna Introduction [1] There are ten unwholesome courses of action, akusala kamma-pathas, accomplished through body, speech and mind: killing, stealing, sexual misbehaviour, lying, slandering, rude speech, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill will and wrong view (ditthi). Killing, stealing and sexual misbehaviour are accomplished through the body. Lying, slandering, rude speech and frivolous talk are accomplished through speech. Covetousness, ill will and wrong view are accomplished through the mind. The akusala kamma-patha of covetousness is the intention to obtain with dishonest means what belongs to someone else. The akusala kamma-patha which is ill will is the intention to harm or hurt someone else. As to wrong view, there are many kinds of it, and only three are akusala kamma-patha through the mind: 1. The belief that there is no cause for the existence of beings and no cause for their purity or corruption (ahetuka-ditthi). 2. The belief that there are no good and bad deeds which produce results (akiriyå-ditthi). 3. The annihilation view: the belief that there is no result of kamma and no further life after death (natthika-ditthi). There are different degrees of these akusala kamma-pathas, depending on the presence of specific constituent factors as explained by the ³Atthasåliní² (Book I, Part III, Ch 5). These factors are different in the case of each of the akusala kamma-pathas. When all factors of a particular akusala kamma are present it is a ³completed akusala kamma-patha² and thus a serious offense. This can produce an unhappy rebirth as a result. We read about slandering (Atthasåliní, 99, 100): ŒSlander¹ means calumnious speech which, by being said to another, reduces to nothing the love which that person, or the speaker bears at his own heart to a third person... The volition of one with a corrupt mind, producing the bodily and vocal effort to sow the seed of discord among others, or to endear oneself to others is termed the volition of calumnious speech. It is a smaller or greater offence, according as the virtue of the person whom he separates is smaller or greater. There are four constituent factors of this crime: (1) Other persons to be divided; (2) the purpose: Œthey will be separated,¹ or the desire to endear oneself to another: ŒI shall become dear and intimate¹; (3) the corresponding effort; (4) the communication. But when there is no rupture among others, the offence does not amount to a complete course; it does so only when there is rupture. As we shall see, different akusala kamma-pathas are eradicated when the subsequent stages of enlightenment are attained. Slandering is completely eradicated at the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner. However, at the first stage of enlightenment, at the stage of the stream-enterer, the sotåpanna, this kind of akusala is not a completed action which could produce an unhappy rebirth. The sotåpanna cannot commit akusala kamma that could produce an unhappy rebirth. ****** Issue of Analysis: Can the sotåpanna still engage in slandering? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: the sotåpanna has eradicated slandering with the intention to cause division among people. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. Manorathapúraní, Commentary to the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the Threes, Ch 2, §15, The wheelright. 2. Visuddhimagga XXII, 75. The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: The Commentary to the ³Gradual Sayings², Book of the Threes, Ch 2, §15, ³The wheelright², deals with the eradication of unwholesome courses of action (kamma-patha) by the path-consciousness of the subsequent stages of enlightenment. Slandering is eradicated by the path-consciousness of the sotåpanna. We read: ³... six kinds of unwholesome courses of action which are killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, slandering and wrong view, are eradicated by the path-consciousness of the ariyan who is sotåpanna. Two kinds of unwholesome course of action which are harsh speech and ill will are eradicated by the path-consciousness of the anågåmí (non-returner who has attained the third stage of enlightenment). Two kinds of unwholesome course of action which are covetousness and idle speech are eradicated by the path-consciousness of the arahat.² The Visuddhimagga XXII, 75 (Purification by Knowledge and Vision) states: ³In the case of unprofitable courses of action, killing living things, taking what is not given, sexual misconduct, false speech (lying) and wrong view are eliminated by the first knowledge (of the sotåpanna). The three, namely, malicious speech (slandering), harsh speech and ill will are eliminated by the third knowledge (of the anågåmí). Gossip and covetousness are eliminated by the fourth knowledge (of the arahat).² It can be concluded that the sotåpanna does not engage in slandering which can divide others, because he has eradicated all akusala kamma that can cause rebirth in an unhappy plane. He has also eradicated jealousy and stinginess. However, sometimes the sotåpanna should say what is true for the benefit of others without there being the unwholesome intention of using speech which could cause division among others. However, others could mistakenly take this for speech that causes division because it may seem to be slandering. Moreover, the sotåpanna can still speak with aversion, dosa, since he has not eradicated aversion. Footnote: 1. I wrote the Introduction. Nina. 24821 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Re: concept not being an object of insight, I think you are supporting > your position with a concept of concept. Do you feel secure standing on > that ground? .... Seeing can be known. Visible object can be known. Hearing, sound and other realities can be known right now while we talk. 'Computer', 'keyboard', 'Larry' can only be thought about, not known. Test it out. Any ideas about 'me' feeling or not feeling secure on any ground is merely more thinking too. The thinking at these times can be known, but not the concepts about 'me', 'secure' and 'ground'. They don't exist except as a conventional manner of speech. Glad to get down to the nitty-gritty here. Metta, Sarah ====== 24822 From: icaro franca Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? Dear Elias: Elias: " as i've understood, everyone can develop jhanas and > attain nibbana. > to attain nibbana you have to develop the jhanas to > its fully. > it's difficult to attain jhanas because we do not > have a concentrated mind and live with desire and > uncontentment. > > As for a layperson it would be diffucult to attain > nibbana, > as the mind is often distracted by obstacles. But > even a layperson, > or anyone can develop jhanas if they can develop an > concentrated mind." ------------------------------------------------------ It can be a very long sequence of "if", Elias... even the more simple Jhaana can be very hard even to the average trained human mind. Keeping your mind focused on a Jhaana stream of consciousness - even a basic pitti-sukhi Jhaana! - on matras and matras it´s more harder than it seems. To be a Sukha-Vipassaka is a goal more easy to attain... and gives good results also! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24823 From: Elias Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:24am Subject: mice saver All, Dear friends, And what is wise-compassion? As a man saw a mice there high on the mountain top, unable to move, unable to drink and eat. The mice would die there if not saved. As a man saw that mice, and climbed that high, to then carry the mice in his hand, calmy and carefully down to the ground, so the mice now could, walk, run, drink and eat and no longer be in a deadly situation on the top of the cliff. As this man who saved the mice, would say, "I did not offer my life to save that mice" but instead with a wise mind said, "I used my life to save that mice". Such is the form wise-compassion. /Elias 24824 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cankers N: I have it at § 111: which are the dhammas that are disconnected (vippayutta: not accompanied by) with aasavas but can have aasavas? Next para: only the lokuttara dhammas and nibbana have nothing to do with aasavas. H Nina, The mundane panna of an arahant is also free from asavas because they have all ceased for him. Larry 24825 From: Andrew Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Similes of the Snake and Raft Hello All Christine has already posted an excellent account of the latest Cooran Dhamma discussion weekend. I would like to thank everyone for coming - especially Azita who had to travel all the way from Cairns. Dhamma was mixed with astronomy thanks to Andy's telescope on Saturday night. I was very excited at seeing the canals on Mars, only to be told that there was a hair on the lens! A lesson in visible object and mind object? On Saturday, I led a discussion on the Simile of the Snake Sutta (which also includes the simile of the raft). Alaggadupama Sutta. I noted that there is a translation discrepancy about the "dhamma" that is to be treated like a raft and relinquished after "crossing over". One source says it means good states/serenity, while Bhikkhu Bodhi says it means the Teachings in toto. If anyone has any insight on this point, please do share it. Metta Andrew 24826 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Hi Icaro, No no no. This completely wrong, more than wrong, beyond wrong, absolutely wrong. Asavas are not a way to cultivate panna. Rather, panna is defiled and misunderstood by being an object of asavas. When the insight knowledge of rise and fall first arises the implications of this insight are not fully realized. This is because this insight is still subject to bewilderment (avijjaasava). The implications that are revealed in the other insight knowledges have yet to be worked out. Similaly, there is a survival instinct (bhavaasava), gross or subtle, in everyone but an arahant. This will taint whatever insight may arise. Larry ---------------------- Dear Larry: larry:" I take "sense desire" to include mental satisfaction at intellectual nicety. Could bhavaasava be desire for the eternal becoming of insight?" ---------------------------------------------- Of course Nina can take this subject at a proper way, Larry...but only think about the old nursery rhyme ( about bhavaasava and insight): "Old Mother Hubbard went to her cupboard To give her poor dog a bone. When she got there The cupboard was bare And so the poor dog has none." Mother of whom we are talking about ???? It´s only the same question: may the bare survival desire to be sufficient to make one poor dog (or another proper animal) gets insight of the higher values of existence ? At first analysis yes... the bhavaasava can conduct one to the first glimpse of insight. But Aasavas are aasavas: people gets nothing for nothing... you must take the Noble Path with good intentions and a well disposed mind to obtain at least the more basic jhanas. ---------------------------------------------- Larry: "Wrong views could include assumptions of permanence. I'm not sure how to characterize panna as an object of bewilderment. Any ideas?" ---------------------------------------------- It sounds strange such mundane traits taking a serious decision to get pañña. Mettaya, Ícaro Larry 24827 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, Thinking can be known. I am not sure if all thought is conceptual (maybe), but I don't see how there can be a concept that is not thought. Are you saying there is such a dhamma as an unthought concept? If so, I agree unthought concepts can't be known and are not even objects of consciousness but conceptual thoughts are conditioned and conditionS for the arising of other dhammas. To say there is no keyboard is to deny my experience of reading, at the very least. To say "keyboard" is an inaccurate description of the group of rupas and namas called "keyboard" is true. I think the real issue though is the semblance of permanence concepts carry. Concepts are general, not particular in meaning. But they are particular individual constructs in themselves. Their general nature hides impermanence. I would agree that generalities only exist as generalities but generalities are formed and I think there is quite a bit to know about them. Larry ------------------------- Sarah: Seeing can be known. Visible object can be known. Hearing, sound and other realities can be known right now while we talk. 'Computer', 'keyboard', 'Larry' can only be thought about, not known. Test it out. Any ideas about 'me' feeling or not feeling secure on any ground is merely more thinking too. The thinking at these times can be known, but not the concepts about 'me', 'secure' and 'ground'. They don't exist except as a conventional manner of speech. Glad to get down to the nitty-gritty here. 24828 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:13pm Subject: Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah! Speaking of standing on secure ground, I just popped in to say hello and thought this would be a good place to land. Although I can't jump into the middle of a thread with anyI see the conflict between experience and concept is still brewing; it guess it's more or less eternal. : ) I appreciate your admonition to check in to the current reality and see what is really experienced. While we can't reference the keyboard to each other, or maybe even to ourselves, without using the mental construct "keyboard," we can look at that which we call keyboard and see the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have any name or any substantial existence outside of the consciousness with which they arise. And then perhaps when we say "keyboard" the next time we will maintain the understanding that this is just a convention, as you say, and not a reality. Well, I can't come around as often as I'd like, but thanks for letting me drop in from time to time to remind myself of what is real, and what is not. Best, Robert Ep. ================================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry, > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Re: concept not being an object of insight, I think you are supporting > > your position with a concept of concept. Do you feel secure standing on > > that ground? > .... > > Seeing can be known. Visible object can be known. Hearing, sound and other > realities can be known right now while we talk. 'Computer', 'keyboard', > 'Larry' can only be thought about, not known. Test it out. > > Any ideas about 'me' feeling or not feeling secure on any ground is merely > more thinking too. The thinking at these times can be known, but not the > concepts about 'me', 'secure' and 'ground'. They don't exist except as a > conventional manner of speech. > > Glad to get down to the nitty-gritty here. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > 24829 From: torloff87048 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 0:54pm Subject: Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Dear Friends, Thanks for your interest in these questions about verbal intimation. I look forward to hearing more about it from you. Perhaps it will help further the discussion if I sharpen the question even more: What is the correct apprehension (through the Abhidhamma) of the reality, knowledge and use of grammar in speech? We all know how to speak in grammatical sentences, and for the most part we can tell a grammatical sentence from an ungrammatical one. Something is going on in the mind to make this happen. What is it? To put it another way, what is the direct, experiential knowledge of speech on a word-by-word, or even syllable-by-syllable, basis? Presumably, when the Buddha spoke he had the capability of apprehending every process taking place in his mind. If we could ask him, what would Buddha tell us about the processes which (seemingly) invariably give rise to grammatical sentences and not ungrammatical ones? This is not so much a question about kusala and akusala factors as a question about a mental process taking place regardless of the presence of kusala or akusala factors. Perhaps I could add some thoughts of my own on this subject. At best, these are intelligent speculations, since, try as I might, I have never been able to directly observe the formation of words and sentences in my mind. From a western scientific perspective, "grammar" is an object that has an independent existence and can be studied to determine its properties. I'm not saying I agree with that point of view, but it is hard to deny that grammar is "something" and that all languages seem to share it in a fundamental way. As I understand current scientific belief, there supposedly exists an abstract structure, called the "Universal Grammar," from which each particular language derives its grammar by the selection of a relatively small number of choices, like whether the verb comes before or after the subject in a sentence. If this turns out to be true, then a wonderful question for Abhidhamma students is how does t 24830 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi all, I have some questions about this also. How does one classify writing? Is there a functional, morally neutral, intimation? It says that intimation expresses intention. What about expressing understanding? I would think a wholesome "I'm going to the store" would not only intimate the intention of going to the store but also the intention to communicate, thereby minimising possible misunderstanding. Also there would be a mindfulness of the sound and manner of expression of one's voice. What else? Larry 24831 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: Search for 'Cause of Rebirth Samsara'- A triviality. --- Dear Eddie, The credit all goes to you. It shows that clinging to view is weak. I think this understanding is part of sacca-nana the first round of development of wisdom. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > Dear Robert, > Thanks very much, it is all well put and fits exactly > into the correct and very wise way to answer that > question. (Please also note: I have change the subject > title). You know I actually have come to that > conclusion as I scoured many places for the closest > answer. It is amazing that you hit on the right answer > very quickly. Your answer really refocus or more > correctly - draws it to a very sharp & acute focus. > To summarize, as long as one understands (I did not > use - 'believe' which can mean unreasoned /fanatic > trust & belief) 'Samsara (Rebirth Cycle), cause & > effect or in a nutshell - Dhamma' are all very real > and functioning, focusing on the goal of Nibanna is, > what is important. Why & how is it like that? - is > only an icing on a cake, so to speak- really > unimportant. 24832 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 8/31/03 5:32:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I can agree with this: > > H: "Are there trees, grass, mountains, and names? Yes - but > conventionally. Do they arise, change, and cease? Yes, conventionally - > and derivatively, based on the arising, changing, and ceasing of a > multitude of interrelated actual phenomena (paramattha dhamma)." > > I would further say that almost all concepts are mis-identifications in > the sense that identity is identical. Further, concepts *appear* to be, > in some sense, outside a process of becoming. Clearly the Buddha's > teaching is based on the understanding of impermanence; dukkha and > anatta are predicated on that. > > Can we agree that the root of this problem of dukkha lies with sanna? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would say that it is sa~n~na that is what is directly affected by ignorance, and that despoiled perception is the beginning of illusion and dukkha. --------------------------------------------------- > Sanna is unable to penetrate the general characteristics, impermanence > in particular, and so fails to correctly understand experience. The > middle level of understanding, "consciousness", does a little better but > doesn't actually understand the individual characteristics, doesn't > _see_ impermanence. Put another way, I would say sanna understands > experience _as_ concept, "consciousness" understands experience _with_ > concept, and panna understands experience without ( or with less) > concept, in other words nibbana, the signless. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Mmm, this isn't bad, provided that by 'consciousness' you mean mental consciousness (manovi~n~nana). ----------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24833 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi 'Torloff' and all New Members, The end of your message didn't reach us with the 'wonderful question';-) Grateful if you'd check and repost it. Also, we ask everyone here to sign off with a name we can use to address you with, (preferably a real name) to avoid confusion and an opening to make it clear who is being addressed as you've done here. Thx. Mike, very glad to see your response on list;-) Good comments, hope everyone will encourage you to keep sharing them with us all;-) Metta, Sarah ====== --- torloff87048 wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Thanks for your interest in these questions about verbal intimation. [....] > If this turns out to be true, then a wonderful question for > Abhidhamma students is how does t > ??? 24834 From: torloff87048 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Sarah, Thanks for taking the time to gather the references to past posts on verbal and bodily intimation. I intend to read through them. In response to your request, here's a brief biographical sketch. I live in the United States in the Pacific Northwest. My interest in the Tipitaka arose only in the last six months, but it follows a long history (20 years) of meditative practice in what I now know was a home-grown version of the bare insight approach to mindfulness. Without the Dhamma to guide me I wandered quite a bit and didn't make a whole lot of progress until recently (except perhaps in training myself to tolerate the discomfort that arises from watching a deluded mind run itself around in circles.) My original motivation for this practice was to find relief from painful physical symptoms that had no obvious organic cause. I was pretty sure that the root cause of these problems was in my mind, so I set about trying to resolve them by observing my mind and its effects on my health and well-being. That sounds simple, but as I'm sure many of you can affirm, it is no easy matter for a deluded mind to discover its own delusions and directly see how they give rise to suffering. Nevertheless, for 20 years I never waivered in my belief that somewhere hidden inside the suffering I was experiencing was the truth about that suffering and the means to relieving it. My exposure to Buddhism during this time was fairly limited. I read the standard sort of popular books that one finds in American bookstores- mostly modern, Western Zen Buddhist kinds of things. This wasn't very helpful to me. My temperment suits me to a practice of bare insight meditation and not much of anything else. At the time I knew nothing about Theraveda Buddhism and the Tipitaka, so I had little to guide me on the path I was taking. Nevertheless, I did make some progress. This culminated in a breakthrough about two years ago when, on a limited basis, I was able to apprehend my suffering in a new way. What I came to suspect was that by asking my mind to interpret my suffering, I was only giving rise to delusional beliefs about the suffering. But what if I used that delusion to my advantage? Namely, I would say within myself, "My mind says such-and such about my suffering. This is probably false. What does my suffering say about itself? Does it say the opposite of what my mind is saying?" In this way I was able to encourage a direct apprehension of the suffering as it really was, not as my deluded mind misapprehended it. This led to a truly miraculous transformation that is still ongoing. I'll try to describe it, but I confess it's a subtle thing and I have not had much success so far in explaining it to others. The key has been this ability to "listen to my suffering in its own voice." That is, not what my mind says about my suffering, but what my suffering says about itself. What I've found is that when heard in this way, suffering is actually revulsion for the unwholesome mental activity that created it. I'm not talking about a knowledge-based understanding of how suffering arises. I'm talking about a direct experience of the suffering as it really is. Sort of like the direct experience of pain if one put one's hand in a fire. Whatever the original reason for putting one's hand in the fire, that temptation will never arise again. Similarly, once suffering is apprehended and experienced as revulsion for the mental activity causing it, then the temptation to engage in that mental activity ceases to arise. That's the miracle. It is the "remainderless fading away" of unwholesome mental states. At the time I made this breakthrough, I still had not been exposed to Theraveda Buddhism or the Tipitaka. But in searching for teachings that corresponded to my experience, I was eventually led to the Sutta on The Four Foundations of Mindfulness, and from there into the whole Tipitaka. These books describe exactly what I have been experiencing and lead me further and further along the path to the end of suffering. I've been gobbling them up and have continued to make a lot of progress in eliminating unwholesome states. Because of my tempermental leaning towards bare insight meditation, I particularly love the Abhidhamma. It is surely one of the most astonishing revelations of truth ever recorded. Not only that, but it really works. Toby 24835 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thinking can be known. I am not sure if all thought is conceptual > (maybe), .... Yes, by definition;-) .... but I don't see how there can be a concept that is not thought. > Are you saying there is such a dhamma as an unthought concept? .... No ..... If so, I > agree unthought concepts can't be known and are not even objects of > consciousness but conceptual thoughts are conditioned and conditionS for > the arising of other dhammas. .... The thiniking (i.e the cittas and cetasikas involved) are conditioned. Only paramattha dhammas (except nibbana of course) are conditioned. Thoughts are not included in the khandhas. It’s true that as arammana paccaya (object condition) or upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition) that concepts or thoughts can be condition. Sounds illogical, but it isn’t. .... To say there is no keyboard is to deny my > experience of reading, at the very least. .... No. ..... To say "keyboard" is an > inaccurate description of the group of rupas and namas called "keyboard" > is true. ... It’s accurate conventionally speaking as Howard said, but not ‘actually’. .... I think the real issue though is the semblance of permanence > concepts carry. Concepts are general, not particular in meaning. But > they are particular individual constructs in themselves. Their general > nature hides impermanence. I would agree that generalities only exist as > generalities but generalities are formed and I think there is quite a > bit to know about them. ..... Only by more thinking, not by direct understanding;-) See the extract from the latest installment from the Maharaulavada sutta. The aggregates include only rupa,vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana khandhas. ..... Glad to keep talking. This thread is being given priority! Also am appreciating your discussion with Howard Metta, Sarah ====== From Nina’s Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B. series: 9 B Relevant sutta passage: [...] "Rahula, whatever form, - past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, base or exalted, whether it is far or near, - all form should be seen as it really is with right wisdom in such a way: "This is not mine, I am not this, this is not me". "Form only, Lord? Form only, Blessed One?' "Also feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, Rahula, as well as form." [``ruupampi, raahula, vedanaapi, raahula, sa~n~naapi, raahula, sa"nkhaaraapi, raahula, vi~n~naa.nampi, raahulaa''ti.] Commentary: tattha ya.mki~nci ruupantiaadiini sabbaakaarena visuddhimagge khandhaniddese vitthaaritaani. Here, as to the words, ya.m ki~nci ruupa.m, whatever form (material phenomena), these are explained in every way in the ‘Visuddhimagga’,’Description of the Aggregates’ (Ch XIV). ================================ 24836 From: torloff87048 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:28pm Subject: Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma (Repost of msg #24829) Hi All, This is a repost of a previous message that got cut off for some reason. Are there length limitations I should know about? Also, does anyone know why the word wrap looks good in the window for posting the message, but is messed up on the actual post? I'm cutting and pasting from a Pocket Word document. Is there a better way to do it so the final post is more legible? Thanks, Toby ______________________ Dear Friends, Thanks for your interest in these questions about verbal intimation. I look forward to hearing more about it from you. Perhaps it will help further the discussion if I sharpen the question even more: What is the correct apprehension (through the Abhidhamma) of the reality, knowledge and use of grammar in speech? We all know how to speak in grammatical sentences, and for the most part we can tell a grammatical sentence from an ungrammatical one. Something is going on in the mind to make this happen. What is it? To put it another way, what is the direct, experiential knowledge of speech on a word-by-word, or even syllable-by-syllable, basis? Presumably, when the Buddha spoke he had the capability of apprehending every process taking place in his mind. If we could ask him, what would Buddha tell us about the processes which (seemingly) invariably give rise to grammatical sentences and not ungrammatical ones? This is not so much a question about kusala or akusala factors as it about the processes taking place regardless of the presence of kusala or akusala factors. Perhaps I could add some thoughts of my own on this subject. At best, these are intelligent speculations, since, try as I might, I have never been able to directly observe the formation of words and sentences in my mind. From a western scientific perspective, "grammar" is an object that has an independent existence and can be studied to determine its properties. I'm not saying I agree with that point of view, but it is hard to deny that grammar is "something" and that all languages seem to share it in a fundamental way. As I understand current scientific belief, there supposedly exists an abstract structure, called the "Universal Grammar," from which each particular language derives its grammar by the selection of a relatively small number of choices, like whether the verb comes before or after the subject in a sentence. If this turns out to be true, then a wonderful question for Abhidhamma students is how does this structure arise? Language and the mind are so intimately connected that it seems as if the fundamental structure of one must reflect the fundamental structure of the other. If the fundamental structure of the mind is Dependent Arising, understood in all the detail of the Abhidhamma, then perhaps the fundamental structure of language is Dependent Arising as well? This leads to the bold speculation that Dependent Arising and the Universal Grammar are one and the same thing, only apprehending different objects and applying different labels to them. This leads to all kinds of other interesting observations. For example, the dry language of the Abhidhamma often sounds just like the dry language of grammar, e.g., there are so many types of this or that citta or cetasika, just like there are so many types of this or that part of speech or type of phrase. Or again, if Dependent Arising is the governing law of all phenomenon, and the governing law of language is Universal Grammar, then to say that Dependent Arising and Universal Grammar are disguised versions of the same thing is to point out that the universe is self-similar: The part of the universe that is "language" has the same complexity and governing law as the whole universe itself. And doesn't that seem to be the way it is with the mind? Whatever we can experience in the mind (excepting perhaps Nibbana) has a verbal counterpart once it is directly apprehended by the mind. And that verbal counterpart is itself another experience of the mind. So that the world of apprehended and described experience is both a part of the whole world of experience and equal to it in complexity and detail. That said, I should add by way of honest self-disclosure that, after several years of trying to make sense of it, I now apprehend these speculations as delusional and causing suffering! The problem is most certainly not with the Abhidhamma. The problem is with western scientific belief. There is no "Universal Grammar" of language just like there is no "Unified Field Theory" of physics. The search for them is delusional, based ultimately on a misapprehension of the world (near and far) as permanent, non-suffering and containing self (i.e. a controlling element). Language and grammar are dependently arisen, conditioned phenomenon, just like hands, eyes and thoughts are, subject to impermanence, change and passing away. Or are they? At the very least, it remains a valid question to ask for a direct, experiential apprehension of the formation of words and sentences in the mind. Something is going on there that is not at all obvious. Whatever truthful can be said about that experience is still of interest to me. Toby 24837 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bodhisattva in Theravada Dear Friend, Welcome to DSG. Many thanks for your post and questions. --- buddhafanclub wrote: > I have never been to so called Teravada countries. > > Do you know any theravadin who take the resolution or vow to become a > Buddha around you? > > Or Have you ever heard of such a living person ? .... Someone might make this resolution, but according to the texts it won’t be of any use unless very particular and unusual conditions are present, including the presence of a live Buddha before whom the resolution must be made. As Htoo just wrote: H: “To become a Sammasambuddha is extremely difficult. Bodhisattas have to complete their perfections for many many lives. When they were matured enough to attain Magga, they reconsidered every possible thing and with their great Karuna or compassion, they decided to fulfil perfections to become Sammasambuddha. They have been completing perfections even before they receive Vyaditta or Sammasambuddha's prediction of becoming Sammasambuddha. Nine Asenkheyya have to lapse just for their wish. Another seven Asenkheyya have to pass to do determination ( Adhitthana ) to become Sammasambuddha. After Vyaditta, they still have to fulfil perfections for a very very long time. So said that ''To become a Sammasambuddha a Satta has to be able to climb mountains of razors ( sharp knives ) and swim across seas of great fire.''> ***** More spefically still, we read about all the special conditions - human, male, ripe for enlightenment, in the presence of a living Buddha, gone forth, obtained the 8 attainments and 5 super-knowledges, special sacrifice and great resolve that are essential for becoming a Bodhisatta. For more details, you may like to review these posts, mostly by Nina: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18577 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22341 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22428 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22462 ***** Please share a little with us about your background and as I just mentioned to another new member, we’d appreciate it if you would kindly make it clear who you are addressing (even if it’s ‘All’) and sign off with your preferably real name. It makes it easier for us all. No need to be shy;-) Please let us know your thoughts on these comments and anything more about your interest in this topic. Metta, Sarah ====== 24838 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:13pm Subject: Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah! Speaking of standing on secure ground, I just popped in to say hello and thought this would be a good place to land. Although I can't jump into the middle of a thread with anyI see the conflict between experience and concept is still brewing; it guess it's more or less eternal. : ) I appreciate your admonition to check in to the current reality and see what is really experienced. While we can't reference the keyboard to each other, or maybe even to ourselves, without using the mental construct "keyboard," we can look at that which we call keyboard and see the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have any name or any substantial existence outside of the consciousness with which they arise. And then perhaps when we say "keyboard" the next time we will maintain the understanding that this is just a convention, as you say, and not a reality. Well, I can't come around as often as I'd like, but thanks for letting me drop in from time to time to remind myself of what is real, and what is not. Best, Robert Ep. ================================ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry, > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Re: concept not being an object of insight, I think you are supporting > > your position with a concept of concept. Do you feel secure standing on > > that ground? > .... > > Seeing can be known. Visible object can be known. Hearing, sound and other > realities can be known right now while we talk. 'Computer', 'keyboard', > 'Larry' can only be thought about, not known. Test it out. > > Any ideas about 'me' feeling or not feeling secure on any ground is merely > more thinking too. The thinking at these times can be known, but not the > concepts about 'me', 'secure' and 'ground'. They don't exist except as a > conventional manner of speech. > > Glad to get down to the nitty-gritty here. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > 24839 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:02pm Subject: Simple at Cooran; was: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Hi Sarah, Jim and all, Thanks for the use of your 'simply living' conversation, it was a big hit. > > Sarah and Jim, your "simple living" conversation would > > make a great discussion paper. I might simply print out the > > latest message (24671), if you don't mind. > .... > Classic! You're obviously THE expert on simple 'simply living';-) > BUT, I'll make a deal - you have to report back to us in detail (or > delegate at the very least It will be a pleasure. I have been delegated a very interesting question on the kilesa-destroying function of the Eight-fold Path. But that will have to wait until Azita has posted Chittapala's essay. While I was driving to Cooran, I listened to Paul Simon's Gracelands CD. I remembered how at first, I was unable to make out some of the lyrics; in particular, there was a line which sounded like, "The dominant ego." I knew that couldn't be right but sang along with those words many times before, eventually, finding the lyrics inside the CD case. The right words to the line were, "We come and we go." (The following line, by the way, is "That's a thing that I keep in the back of my head.") As I listened on the way to Cooran, it occurred to me that the words were crystal clear; how could I have mistaken "We come and we go" for anything else? In particular, it didn't sound remotely like, "The dominant ego." Anyway, the first discussion topic of the weekend (arising from Chitttapala's essay), was 'the meaning of the Middle Way.' There was the usual discussion about self-indulgence versus self-denial, eternity belief versus annihilation belief, choice versus no choice (don't mention that to Christine), control versus no control and so on. Whenever I remembered 'nama and rupa,' the meaning of the Middle Way instantly became clear. Just like Paul Simon's lyrics, it couldn't be mistaken for anything else. It certainly couldn't be mistaken for, "Do I exist or do I not exist." The same thing happened throughout the weekend, just as it happens here in dsg. Arguments in favour of changing environmental conditions and creating suitable mind states can make a lot of sense, conventionally. Little wonder we easily confuse them with the Middle Way. But then, thankfully, we remember the namas and rupas of the present moment and the way becomes clear again. We can waste our lives 'trying' to practise the Middle Way. We can think, "There's a little too much self- indulgence here, I need more self-mortification . . . Woops, too much mortification, a tad more indulgence and I should be right in the middle! . . No a bit more . . ." That sort of practice is not the Middle Way. Nor is the contemplation, "Do I exist? Do I not exist? Do I both exist and not exist? Do I neither exist nor not exist?" To find the Middle Way we learn about nama and rupa. Seen from the outside, that lacks the romance of formalised practices but not from the inside. Nama and rupa are all there is; when we remember that, they cease to be dry, academic subjects -- learning more about them IS the Middle Way. Kind regards, Ken H 24840 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:18pm Subject: Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) - correction... Sorry, I left out a word or two in my post. This is the hopefully corrected version..... Rob Ep. ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > Hi Sarah! > Speaking of standing on secure ground, I just popped in to say hello > and thought this would be a good place to land. Although I can't jump > into the middle of a thread with any certainty, I see the conflict between > experience and concept is still brewing; I guess it's more or less > eternal. : ) > > I appreciate your admonition to check in to the current reality and > see what is really experienced. While we can't reference the keyboard > to each other, or maybe even to ourselves, without using the mental > construct "keyboard," we can look at that which we call keyboard and > see the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have > any name or any substantial existence outside of the consciousness > with which they arise. And then perhaps when we say "keyboard" the > next time we will maintain the understanding that this is just a > convention, as you say, and not a reality. > > Well, I can't come around as often as I'd like, but thanks for letting > me drop in from time to time to remind myself of what is real, and > what is not. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ================================ 24841 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, S: "The thiniking (i.e the cittas and cetasikas involved) are conditioned. Only paramattha dhammas (except nibbana of course) are conditioned. Thoughts are not included in the khandhas. It's true that as arammana paccaya (object condition) or upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition) that concepts or thoughts can be condition. Sounds illogical, but it isn't." L: If thoughts are not included in the khandhas then it seems to me that turns a blind eye to a lot of experience. I've been thinking about concepts all day. Are you saying that simply didn't happen? As for concepts not being conditioned, I bet the name "dhammastudygroup" was formed by accumulations and conditions. Larry 24842 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cankers Dear Nina (Larry & Icaro), Difficult as you say. I’ve also pulled out a few texts, but I’m not sure I can be of any help. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Katame dhammaa aasavavippayutta saasava > N: I have it at § 111: which are the dhammas that are disconnected > (vippayutta: not accompanied by) with aasavas but can have aasavas? > Next para: only the lokuttara dhammas and nibbana have nothing to do > with > aasavas. > > Thus we have to study further in what sense they are saaasava. .... As well as ‘involved with asava, the object of asava.’ as you give many examples for, I wonder if in some contexts, asava is used rather like anusaya as referring to (latent) taint, i.e with all cittas except for lokuttara and arahant’s as Larry said. Just an idea. .... > The objects do not arise at the same time as the aasavas themselves. The > word occurring together may be confusing. .... This is why I wonder. ..... > Coming back to the footnote in Dsg: < saasavas: dhammas proceeding with > aasavas, and which have made onself their object (attaanam aaramma.na.m > katvaa).> > Now attaana.m is not only accusative, it can be gen. or dative pl: for > themselves. When accusative: they have made the asava itself object. > But > why singular? .... ??? (because of) its object,accompanied by asava - the meaning of subject to cankers. contrasting with object of lokuttara cittas which is nibbana, therefore supramundane, no asava. ***** M117 “ "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. ... "And what, bhikkhus, is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by taints [aasava], partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment; and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.” Jon wrote a helpful post on this, imho, discussing the meaning as referring to mundane and supramundane rt view: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17539 I’ll quote a part in case the link doesn’t work for you: ”The distinction relates to the difference between the mundane and the supramundane versions of the path factor. In brief, both the mundane and the supramundane path factors mentioned are a support for supramundane right concentration, but in different ways. The mundane path factors are a support in that they lead eventually to the supramundane; the supramundane ones are a support in that they accompany each other at supramundane moments. But in each case, right view is the leader ('comes first').” ***** Vism XX11, 56 “Cankers (aasava): as far as (aa) change-of-lineage [in the case of consciousness] and as far as (aa) the acme of becoming [in the case of the kinds of becoming that is to say the fourth immaterial state,] there are exudatios (savana) owing to the [formed nature of the]object...” etc see note 15 to this: “Pm only says ‘ “Exudations” (savana) because of occurring [due to], svanato (‘because of exuding’) is because of flowing out as the filth of defilement.” **** Under anusaya, not merely a latent tendency (Guide to Abhid Pit p78, 139). Maybe also asava, not merely an arising of defilement??? **** Shv1571 quoting on Rt Speech as you mentioned from M suttas. This is like M117 about rt speech subject to cankers (sasaasava), brings merit and worldly results and supramundane, not subject to cankers (anaasava) and factor of 8fold path. I took the first to refer to non-eradication of kilesa, i.e tendency to kilesa whilst rt speech and other mundane path factors are arising in these contexts. Also Shv 445 and 571 **** SN 111,47 has the same passage about the aggregates subject to clinging referring to that which is tainted (sasaasava) ***** Nina, no need to be polite if you don’t think any of these comments help. Pls continue with your sub-com translations, just leaving aside or leaving gaps for any difficult areas. They may become clearer later. When we spoke to B.Bodhi, he stressed he wasn’t a scholar with his Pali and just does his best with what he has to hand (sometimes not all the Pali texts). Otherwise nothing would ever get distributed or published in his case. I’ll also mention to him that you’re working on this to see if he has any interest in looking at it or if anyone else has had a go before. Hopefully Jim will look at it further when he has time too. Metta, Sarah ===== 24843 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi again Larry, For some reason your posts are jumping my queue.. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > L: If thoughts are not included in the khandhas then it seems to me that > turns a blind eye to a lot of experience. ..... not if you consider experience as 'actual' (to coin Howard's transl of paramattha, though I did see he also used 'ultimate' in one post;-)). ..... I've been thinking about > concepts all day. Are you saying that simply didn't happen? .... It happened. 'You' thought about concepts, with the stress on 'thought about'. .... > As for concepts not being conditioned, I bet the name"dhammastudygroup" > was formed by accumulations and conditions. .... ;-) The particular kind of thinking certainly was 'formed by accumulations and conditions' to think in that way and not another way. But that which was conceived by those accumulations and conditions never existed and still doesn't exist in spite of the busy numbers which might suggest otherwise;-) Try being aware of DSG and what is the object that can be directly known? Thinking? Metta, Sarah ====== 24844 From: Roger Garin-Michaud Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Buddhist bibliography September update the September update to the Buddhist bibliography is now online at : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/buddbib.html while the Buddhist directory is at : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/buddlinks.html if you know of a Buddhist web site which is not listed yet, please do not hesitate to write to me with the url of the Buddhist website you wish to see listed, thanks ! Happy reading ! Roger Garin-Michaud from Saint-Priest near Lyon, France http://www.cyberdistributeur.com more information at : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/English1.html to subscribe/unsubscribe to any of our mailing lists : http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/feedback.htm 24845 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception hello all, Thank you all again for all the help I recieved on prior posts. Currently, I have been studying the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) and am having problems with some very basic terms. I was wondering if anyone can offer help in clarifying. The words I am having problems connecting with reality are the following: Mind, Conciousness, and Perception I have always thought of them synonymously and very vaguely; Reality is so much more complex than words. In reality, many things interrelate in this realm. When I think of what mind is, I also think of conciousness; or as one and the same. When I think of perception, not only of the senses, but perception within and of the mind, they are all (the 3 terms) once again interrelated (as I define them). However in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) they are distinct entities. The following are passages in which they are referred: "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself... [2] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates? There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' I would appreciate any help anyone could offer to turn these vague terms/words into real things/entities I can grasp. gratitudes, nori 24846 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi RobEp, Always good to see you;-) ;-) --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Hi Sarah! > Speaking of standing on secure ground, I just popped in to say hello > and thought this would be a good place to land. .... An illusion, Rob, an illusion....it’s crumbling away as we speak. From a recent post of Nina’s translating the sub-comy to Vism: “lujjanapalujjana.t.thena loko vuccati va.t.ta.m, Because of the meaning of crumbling away the world is called the cycle (of birth and death);....” ..... >Although I can't jump > into the middle of a thread with anyI see the conflict between > experience and concept is still brewing; it guess it's more or less > eternal. : ) .... Please jump right in..... We’ll all be glad of your help :) ..... > I appreciate your admonition to check in to the current reality and > see what is really experienced. While we can't reference the keyboard > to each other, or maybe even to ourselves, without using the mental > construct "keyboard," we can look at that which we call keyboard and > see the endless aspects and configurations which really do not have > any name or any substantial existence outside of the consciousness > with which they arise. .... What is seen are merely visible objects, seen and marked and then conceptualised about. The mind-door activity and conceptualising follows immediately, but I think we agree. As Howard discussed recently with Ken H, no two visible objects are the same, even though they share common characteristics. ..... >And then perhaps when we say "keyboard" the > next time we will maintain the understanding that this is just a > convention, as you say, and not a reality. ..... And before we know it, we’re lost in that world of conventions, taking them for realities and having the illusion they can be directly known, I think. .... > Well, I can't come around as often as I'd like, but thanks for letting > me drop in from time to time to remind myself of what is real, and > what is not. .... Don’t run away so fast!What’s the hurry? How’s your summer been and is the drama book finished? Meet some of our newer members and talk to Larry when he gets frustrated with my clumsy language & posts;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Newbies, Rob Ep has the no 1 slot in the photo album. I think Emmy now heads her own album of ‘significant others’. Perhaps you can encourage others to join - after all, weren’t you meant to be Keeper of the Album? http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst ======= 24847 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi Toby, An interesting study might be to compare the grammar of body language, the grammar of vocal language, and the grammar of logic. Mathematics, for example, has a grammar. These are all matters of convention, social agreements, which we learn at an early age and which evolve through countless accumulations. Beyond that I don't think abhidhamma has much to say about it. Although there *might* be the seeds of an ontology of grammar or grammar of ontology in the 4 patisambhida. Stay tuned. Larry 24848 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: to Sukin, re: cremation Hi Nina, I sent one reply yesterday and waited for today to see if it would appear on the list. Nina, I don't personally know K. Sukol, so I didn't even think about going to the funeral. Besides I think it took place in Chiang Mai. I just called up Elle however, and asked her to convey your and Lodewijk's condolence to K. Sukol. I heard before that the Abbot had very good understanding of the Dhamma and I was hoping that one day I might meet him. So I feel this loss too... Please convey my regards to Lodewijk. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sukin, > op 30-08-2003 11:22 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > > > Today there was no discussion because K. Sujin had > > to attend the funeral of K. Sukol's monk brother. > N: This touches me very, very deeply and I sympathize with K. Sukol very > much, please tell him this. Lodewijk will also be touched, we both respected > him so much. We were going to ask for a trip to the Wat Dong Devi when we > are in Thailand end January, beginning February, because we wanted to see > him. What a loss for the Dhamma also, he had such great understanding. Can > you give me more news? I like to hear about the Abbot's kusala and about the > Dhamma talk at the ceremony. > Nina. 24849 From: Andrew Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hello all, > > Thank you all again for all the help I recieved on prior posts. > > Currently, I have been studying the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) > and am having problems with some very basic terms. I was wondering > if anyone can offer help in clarifying. > > The words I am having problems connecting with reality are the > following: > > Mind, Conciousness, and Perception > > I have always thought of them synonymously and very vaguely; > > However in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) they are distinct > entities. The following are passages in which they are referred: > > "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of > itself... > > [2] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & > of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. And > how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves > with reference to the five clinging-aggregates? There is the case > where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such > its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are > fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such > its disappearance.' > Dear Nori How strange that a very similar point was made at the Cooran weekend. I recently purchased a copy of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations of the Majjhima Nikaya and have been reading the suttas (not just reading about them) for the first time - feeling somewhat like a Christian reading the Bible for the very first time after years of being told what's in it! So, in the Alagaddupama Sutta (Simile of the Snake), I read the Buddha telling the Bhikkhus that, if they don't understand anything, they should ask him or "those bhikkhus who are wise". Later in the sutta, he talks about material form, feeling, perception, formations etc. Imagining myself as a bhikkhu listening to the Buddha's discourse at the time, it is plainly obvious that I would have to ask him for a detailed explanation of those terms, what they mean, how they interrelate and so on. What I am saying is this - I have not been able to understand the suttas without knowing the underlying psychological & other theories underpinning them (which do not seem to be explained in the suttas themselves). Rightly or wrongly, I have gained the impression from reading DSG posts that there is inconsistency between the suttas and the Abhidhamma, that Buddha's "true" teachings can be discerned - fully and comprehensively - from a reading of the suttas alone. I now consider this type of thread to be a complete red herring. So, Nori, what I think you have to do is this. Read the suttas, as you are doing. For those parts not explained in sufficient detail for your understanding, don't be afraid to consult the Abhidhamma and commentaries. Then do as the Buddha said - examine his Dhamma reflectively with wisdom. Specifically, I think you have to study the 5 aggregates (khandhas)- also termed "nama-rupa". Buddha said to see them as they actually are with proper wisdom thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self". This leads to liberation. Good luck! Andrew 24850 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 3:14am Subject: Re: Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception Hello Nori, It may be helpful if you could read the first three chapters of Abhidhamma in daily life. Each chapter is about eight or nine pages. This would probably give you a good idea of what Theravadins mean by mind, consciousness and perception - which is not what the everyday world means by the terms. http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-00.htm I'm not sure of the differences between the Mahasatipatthana sutta and the Satipatthana sutta. But, you might be interested to know that the Satipatthana Sutta from the Majjhima Nikaya was exhaustively discussed on dsg. using "The Way of Mindfulness" The Satipatthana Sutta and it's Commentary by Soma Thera. This can be viewed or downloaded at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Larry kept us studying by regularly posting sections from 'The Way of Mindulness', starting at Way 1: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15863 and finally coming to a completion at Way 105: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23070 Perhaps the questions and discussions in this study would also be of assistance to you. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hello all, > > Thank you all again for all the help I recieved on prior posts. > > Currently, I have been studying the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) > and am having problems with some very basic terms. I was wondering > if anyone can offer help in clarifying. > > The words I am having problems connecting with reality are the > following: > > Mind, Conciousness, and Perception > > I have always thought of them synonymously and very vaguely; Reality > is so much more complex than words. In reality, many things > interrelate in this realm. When I think of what mind is, I also > think of conciousness; or as one and the same. When I think of > perception, not only of the senses, but perception within and of the > mind, they are all (the 3 terms) once again interrelated (as I > define them). > > However in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) they are distinct > entities. The following are passages in which they are referred: > > "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of > itself... > > [2] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & > of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. And > how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves > with reference to the five clinging-aggregates? There is the case > where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such > its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are > fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such > its disappearance.' > > I would appreciate any help anyone could offer to turn these vague > terms/words into real things/entities I can grasp. > > > gratitudes, > > nori 24851 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Dear Larry: Larry:"No no no. This completely wrong, more than wrong, > beyond wrong, > absolutely wrong. Asavas are not a way to cultivate > panna." ---------------------------------------------------- It´s not the end of the world as we know it... But take a look at my Nina´s reply about these matter. Of course Pañña doesn´t arise from Aasava: this I was trying to stand with the Honourable mom Hubbard Rhyme. ------------------------------------------------------ Larry:"This is because this > insight is still > subject to bewilderment (avijjaasava). The > implications that are > revealed in the other insight knowledges have yet to > be worked out. > Similaly, there is a survival instinct (bhavaasava), > gross or subtle, in > everyone but an arahant. This will taint whatever > insight may arise." ------------------------------------------------------ Just the right point Larry! The bhavaasava is a instinct - you can just imagine, as the mom Hubbard´s poor dog, that either this or that Aasava can give you a first glimpse of insight. Mere illusion. But if you cultivate attention and vigilance - Satipatthana - you can get it...and taking a pick at the Sukha-Vupassana is as good also it. Only the Arahantship is free of such Aasavas. May everyone attain this bliss! Well... it´s not so serious as to err at basic maths as I do sometimes (is ten plus three twenty eight, tad ??? Is this way you deserve your Mickey Mouse´s club card ??? Sad, very sad tad !!! No No No!!!!!) And I feel fine... Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24852 From: Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 9/1/03 12:57:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > If so, I > >agree unthought concepts can't be known and are not even objects of > >consciousness but conceptual thoughts are conditioned and conditionS for > >the arising of other dhammas. > .... > The thiniking (i.e the cittas and cetasikas involved) are conditioned. > Only paramattha dhammas (except nibbana of course) are conditioned. > Thoughts are not included in the khandhas. It’s true that as arammana > paccaya (object condition) or upanissaya paccaya (decisive support > condition) that concepts or thoughts can be condition. Sounds illogical, > but it isn’t. > ========================== Sarah, this is zeroing in on an important matter that hasn't been clearly ironed out yet on the list, nor in my mind, nor, I believe, in Larry's mind, namely the relationships among the following: Acts of mental discernment (mind-door cittas), cetasikas concomitant to mind-door cittas, thoughts, and the alleged referents of thoughts. It seems to me that you are saying the following: So called thoughts (the stuff that seems to go through our heads as we think about things) are fictions; when engaged in a process of thinking, what occurs is a structured sequence of cittas and cetasikas with mind-door objects consisting of a variety of namas and rupas, including memories, feelings, emotions, images, odors, sounds, etc, but no mind-door objects of a special sort that can be called "thoughts" - all there is are just the sequences of mind-door citta-cetasika-arammana events that constitute the thinking. I may be right or wrong in the foregoing analysis of the position you are putting forward. I do find this position an interesting and plausible one, though it is one which is different from what has been my view. Let me mention two other viewpoints: 1) What has been my view is that among the dhammas that can arise through the mind door are namas that are mind-constructed (manosankhata, to make up some Pali! ;-), that these can serve as objects of mind-door cittas, that they are what thoughts are, and that discerning them as objects, one after another, is what a thought process (or thinking) is. 2) Another, alternative view, that has a "natural" feel to it, and which, I suspect, is a very common one, is that there is no subject-object relation holding between mind-door cittas and their thought-objects, but rather that the thought, the knowing of the thought, and the thinking are all a single, non-dual event. It seems to me that the position I put forth first (as "yours") partakes of elements of both (1) and (2) above, and may synthesize them and be superior to them. I draw no final conclusion here. I look forward to reading your comments. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24853 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Sarah and Laiiiireeee, Also for me, but as you see, it is coming up soon in the Vis and also in subco, but I may skip that one???? nina. op 31-08-2003 09:06 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > With regard to the patisambhida, it’s a very difficult subject for me 24854 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Hi Larry, op 31-08-2003 00:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Could bhavaasava be desire for the eternal becoming of insight? > Wrong views could include assumptions of permanence. I'm not sure how to > characterize panna as an object of bewilderment. Any ideas? N: for bhavaasava see my quote to Mike. I do not think it has to do with eternal becoming of insight. One may have wrong ideas about panna: thinking that one can make it arise again by control, motivated by an idea of self who controls. But obviously, any object can be object of the aasavas. It reaches up to the plane of gotrabhuu, the Atthasalini states. In other words: it concerns all cittas except lokuttara cittas which follow closely upon gotrabhu, change of lineage. Nina. 24855 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 11. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:17:01 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: meanings of dhamma, no 11. Meanings of dhamma, no. 11. The Saddaniti explains dhamma as nibbaana: <"Sata~nca dhammo na jara.m upetii"ti ettha nibbaane vattati. In the passage ³And true dhamma is not susceptible to decay², here dhamma means nibbaana...> We read further on: N: The terms hetu and paccaya are often used together, for example in the ³Kindred Sayings²(IV, XXXV, § 93, Duality: yo pi hetu, yo pi paccaya...so pi hetu, so pi paccaya.. : that condition, that relation... The Saddaniti ends with a summary in verse: Icceva.m- Thus indeed the word dhamma occurs with reference to the following words: Pariyattipaccayesu, gu.ne nissattataaya ca; scriptures and conditions, virtue and what is devoid of a living being; sabhaave ceva pa~n~naaya.m, pu~n~ne pa~n~nattiyampi ca. what has its own characteristic and wisdom, merit and also concept. Aapattiya.m vikaare ca, paccayuppannakepi ca; disciplinary offense and alteration, and also what is conditioned; saccasamaadhipakati-~neyyesu yuttiyampi ca; truth, concentration and nature, what is to be known and also what is suitable; visaye ceva nibbaane, dhammasaddo pavattati. object and nibbaana, thus the word dhamma occurs. Keci pana dhammasaddassa pavattivisayaana.m dasadhaava pariccheda.m vadanti. Some teachers, however, indicate the classification of the applications of the word dhamma by way of tenfold: Neyyamagge ca nibbaane, sabhaave atha jaatiya.m; What is to be known, the Path, nibbaana, what has its own nature, and also birth; mane visayapu~n~nesu, bhaave paavacanepi ca; mind-door, object and merit, nature and also the scriptures; imesu dasasvatthesu, dhammasaddo pavattati. in these ten applications the word dhamma occurs. ****** (The end.) With thanks to Jim and Dimitri, who inspired me to carry on this study. Nina. 24856 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Dear Mike and Tobi, op 31-08-2003 18:00 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: Tobi, I am so delighted with your interest in Abhidhamma. Welcome here, all questions most welcome. Maybe after you read those sugested posts you have more questions. I liked Jon's remarks and also, Mike, you give us excellent reminders. Mike: The 'welfare' cetasika(s) (alobha-adosa? not sure) may remain predominant > throughout the statement but a practically infinite number of other cittas > and cetasikas--kusala and akusala--must certainly arise and subside with > their respective cittas through all the doors before the statement is > finished*. By the way, I think that kusala is very rarely > predominant--subtle akusala almost always rules for us puthujjanas. N: Wonderful Mike, and how little we know about all these uncountable moments of subtle akusala, even when we study Dhamma, explain it, or help others in different ways. How neglectful we really are! And deluding ourselves. Since there are countless cittas arising and falling away so fast, I think we should not try to pinpoint what happens exactly when speaking, from moment to moment. The details help us to have more understanding of anatta, that there is no self who speaks or conditions bodily intimation. With appreciation, Nina. 24857 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Dear Tobi, op 31-08-2003 21:54 schreef torloff87048 op torloff87048@y...: > We all know how to speak in > grammatical sentences, and for the most part we can tell a > grammatical sentence from an ungrammatical one. Something is going > on in the mind to make this happen. What is it? N: It is the function of the cetasika sa~n~naa, remembrance or perception, accompanying each citta. It marks and remembers each object. Whatever you learn, grammar, falls away each moment with the citta. But each citta that falls away is succeeded by a next one, and thus experiences, also learning experiences are accumulated from moment to moment. It is due to sa~n~naa that there is remembrance of words, and the correct way of forming sentences. We attach great importance to remembrance, we take it for self. But it is only a cetasika performing its function. Amazing how slowly a learning process evolves. Not only with regard to grammar, but also with regard to the Dhamma. All we learn has to be applied, the Dhamma explains realities as they appear now. But before this sinks in! A Thai Abbot who just passed away said that we have to listen countless times.We think that we understand, but we have not understood yet, listening and considering is never enough. May we all have patience to listen again, consider again, so that gradually more understanding is gained. Nina. 24858 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg]basic jhanas? Dear Icaro, I understand what you mean. I assumed already that you were using jhana in another sense. In the Dhsg and the Patthana: jhanafactors, also akusala ones are mentioned. They condition citta by way of jhana. These factors condition citta to think closely of an object. They each perform their own function function while they accompany citta. Good or bad deeds cannot be performed without these jhana-factors. Like speech: the jhana-factor vitakka plays an important part. Ven. Nyanaponika in Abhidhamma Studies explains about these factors. In the Subco they are called strength-givers. But how easy to take the akusala factors for the kusala factors. Nina. op 31-08-2003 23:32 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > even the more simple Jhaana can be very hard even to > the average trained human mind. Keeping your mind > focused on a Jhaana stream of consciousness - even a > basic pitti-sukhi Jhaana! 24859 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kusala kamma continues samsara Dear Jon, I translated from the Thai commentary. Nina. op 31-08-2003 07:47 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > The commentary material you quote below is interesting stuff. Is it > from a published translation, or is it your own translation from the > Pali (or Thai)? 24860 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Howard! Howard: "when engaged in a process of thinking, > what occurs is a structured > sequence of cittas and cetasikas with mind-door > objects consisting of a variety of > namas and rupas, including memories, feelings, > emotions, images, odors, > sounds, etc, but no mind-door objects of a special > sort that can be called > "thoughts" - all there is are just the sequences of > mind-door citta-cetasika-arammana > events that constitute the thinking." ---------------------------------------------------- Exact the point, Uplifted Upasaka! And this clarifies the question. You see, when I was studying the Dhammasangani, I felt an urge to expand such ideas as the generation of sense-door thinking: the Dsg, despite the fact the Nibbana is an ahetu Dhamma, doesn´t support the concept of innate ideas -after the Mattika, you got only Kusala and Akusala Dhammas, embedded or not on hetu and ahetu grounds! So, I jump directly to the Patthana and I found at the hetu and Aramana Paccaya´s stands the first glimpse about this clarification. I will intend to read the rest of Patthana and its superb Combinatory Analysis of Kusala, Akusala, hetu, Aramana, etc, Paccayoti!!! Howard: " 1) What has been my view is that among the > dhammas that can arise > through the mind door are namas that are > mind-constructed (manosankhata, to make > up some Pali! ;-), that these can serve as objects > of mind-door cittas, that > they are what thoughts are, and that discerning them > as objects, one after > another, is what a thought process (or thinking) is." ------------------------------------------------------ Following the Patthana´s classification, it´s not only nama that are constructed as mind stuff (rated as Arupa)... even external rupa manages to penetrate our consciousness, forming a mental image - rupa as mind stuff - as similar as possible to reality. ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard:" 2) Another, alternative view, that has a > "natural" feel to it, and > which, I suspect, is a very common one, is that > there is no subject-object > relation holding between mind-door cittas and their > thought-objects, but rather that > the thought, the knowing of the thought, and the > thinking are all a single, > non-dual event. -------------------------------------------------- They are no-dual at rupa level...the same Rupa-Dhamma is found inside mind door-citta and out of it. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: "I draw no final conclusion here. I > look forward to reading your > comments." ---------------------------------------------------- I left to the Patthanapali the final word about this matters... for a while! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24861 From: Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi again, Sarah - A couple more thoughts. I presented what I took to be "your position": > So called thoughts > (the stuff that seems to go through our heads as we think about things) are > fictions; when engaged in a process of thinking, what occurs is a structured > > sequence of cittas and cetasikas with mind-door objects consisting of a > variety of > namas and rupas, including memories, feelings, emotions, images, odors, > sounds, etc, but no mind-door objects of a special sort that can be called > "thoughts" - all there is are just the sequences of mind-door > citta-cetasika-arammana events that constitute the thinking. and my position: > > What has been my view is that among the dhammas that can arise > through the mind door are namas that are mind-constructed (manosankhata, to > make > up some Pali! ;-), that these can serve as objects of mind-door cittas, that > > they are what thoughts are, and that discerning them as objects, one after > another, is what a thought process (or thinking) is. > =========================== Actually, as I think about it, these two positions are may not be mutually exclusive. I've been mulling over exactly what it is that I mean for the most part when I speak of "thoughts", and I think that mainly, in addition to "the mind-door objects consisting of a variety of namas and rupas, including memories, feelings, emotions, images, odors, sounds, etc," what I most particularly have in mind are acts of mind-door sa~n~na, the makings of mental tags/markings and the reviewing of such. It is these cognitive events that I most view as "thoughts". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24862 From: torloff87048 Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 8:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Thank you, Nina. That seems to be the correct way to apprehend grammar. It is a conditioned marking of mental objects by perception. This accumulates over time so that when mental objects arise in the mind, they are already marked by past conditioning. When we speak, we are sequentially "reading" the markings that are a property of the object, which itself is changing even as we speak. Grammar is only a conditioned way of reading those markings. Toby > N: It is the function of the cetasika sa~n~naa, remembrance or perception, > accompanying each citta. It marks and remembers each object. Whatever you > learn, grammar, falls away each moment with the citta. But each citta that > falls away is succeeded by a next one, and thus experiences, also learning > experiences are accumulated from moment to moment. It is due to sa~n~naa > that there is remembrance of words, and the correct way of forming > sentences. 24863 From: Larry Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Hi Icaro, I was just kidding with my no no no. I hope you weren't taken aback. Also, I think I made a mistake about avijjaasava. I called it bewilderment but I think it is actually wrong view. It seems there is a slight difference between bewilderment and wrong view. According to CMA wrong view (ditthi) is associated with desire and I would say also with concepts. Bewilderment (moha) is just not understanding. I think avijjaasava (ignorance) is wrong view, very basically one of the two extreme views (eternalism or nihilism) and is the same as the first link in dependent origination. Maybe ditthi is a subcategory of moha. I don't know. But I think it is significant that desire is associated with wrong view but not particularly with bewilderment. Larry 24864 From: torloff87048 Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 10:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi Larry, And not only that, but what about the "grammar" of natural phenomenon, which even seems to be "speaking" to us at times? The intuition that perhaps all these different "grammars" are the same is what drove my speculations. As far as I can tell though, the only wholesome approach to to these things is to recognize all phenomenon as dependently arisen and to direct one's attention to the experience of them as impermanent, suffering and non-self. I can't find a reference to patisambhida in the CMA. I'll have to do a little exploring to find out what that's all about... Toby > > An interesting study might be to compare the grammar of body language, > the grammar of vocal language, and the grammar of logic. Mathematics, > for example, has a grammar. These are all matters of convention, social > agreements, which we learn at an early age and which evolve through > countless accumulations. Beyond that I don't think abhidhamma has much > to say about it. Although there *might* be the seeds of an ontology of > grammar or grammar of ontology in the 4 patisambhida. Stay tuned. > > Larry 24865 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Simple at Cooran; was: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Dear Ken, Thank you, that is the essence of the Middle Way. The song: we come and go: nobody knows from where he came when he is born, and then so soon he goes again: where? It is the cycle. With appreciation, Nina. op 01-09-2003 08:02 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > To find the Middle Way we learn about nama and rupa. > Seen from the outside, that lacks the romance of > formalised practices but not from the inside. Nama and > rupa are all there is; when we remember that, they > cease to be dry, academic subjects -- learning more > about them IS the Middle Way. 24866 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Dear Howard, I like your well thought out post. I do not see the change very radical, but more gradual, over many, many years, so that we hardly notice it. But, it is an immense boon that the Buddha taught us about our different cittas, and rupas. He taught us to be aware also of akusala, and then panna can develop! I agree with you: there are countless akusala cittas, but one moment of right understanding is very precious. No need to be distressed about our akusala. Nina. P.S. If your mail bounces do you allow me to answer your litterature post on dsg? I have to wait and see. More people like to know about books on abhidhamma. op 31-08-2003 17:41 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Because of this fact, > it is truly a great boon to us that the possibility of change, radical > change, is still open to us at any split-second moment. By studying and > contemplating the Dhamma, and by engaging in cultivation as we (individually) > understand > the Buddha to have instructed, we plant the seeds any one of which may blossom > into the tree of freedom when conditions are right. Then it doesn't matter > that the overwhelming aggregate of states are akusala - the one moment of > liberating wisdom saves the day. 24867 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] cankers Dear Larry, I have to consider Sarah's post. Difficult! But someone else could have desire for the citta of the arahat? Or is that not the meaning? Why is the Atthasalini saying: right up to the plane of gotrabhu there are asavas. Actually the matter was: the object of asavas. Nina. op 31-08-2003 22:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: I have it at § 111: which are the dhammas that are disconnected > (vippayutta: not accompanied by) with aasavas but can have aasavas? Next > para: only the lokuttara dhammas and nibbana have nothing to do with > aasavas. > > H Nina, > > The mundane panna of an arahant is also free from asavas because they > have all ceased for him. > 24868 From: Larry Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 11:11am Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Try being aware of DSG and what is the object that can be directly known? > Thinking? Hi Sarah, The object that can be directly known is the people who wrote all these emails. However, I have some more thoughts on this. If you say that what looks like a tree, sounds like a tree, feels like a tree, smells like a tree, and tastes like a tree is not a tree, it is looking, hearing, feeling, smelling, and tasteing, then I would agree this is logical. But, this does not rule out concepts as a conditioned mental event and it doesn't prevent one from calling this particular assembly of sensations a tree. What it does do is deny the duality of "other". By denieing that duality you are denieing objects (arammana). So doing, you are saying all there is is consciousness. If, conventionally, concepts are the object of consciousness then, ultimately, concepts _are_ consciousness. So, voila, you have asserted that a concept is a paramattha dhamma. I agree. Larry 24869 From: Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/1/03 1:52:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > P.S. If your mail bounces do you allow me to answer your litterature post > on > dsg? I have to wait and see. More people like to know about books on > abhidhamma. > ======================= A few of my mails are bouncing, but most are not. But, please, yes, by all means, answering on list will be fine. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24870 From: torloff87048 Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 11:21am Subject: The heart base Hi All, I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the heart base as the physical support for the mind element and mind-consciousness. I know this base is not specifically stated in the Abhidhamma proper, but I assume the commentary that names it is authoritative. Any comments are appreciated. The obvious question is, what about the brain? My understanding is that the heart base is the physical support for citta and cetasika, while the brain can be understood as the physical support for mind-objects that are presented to the mind-door. If that is so, would it be correct to say that when a cetasika such as perception "marks" a mind-object, that this is another case of consciousness produced matter, in that the physical support for the mind-object (in the brain) is altered in some way by the mark? If a person is hit on the head and "knocked unconscious," should we understand this as being a disruption in the flow of mind-objects from the brain to the mind-door? Or, does the mind-door have a physical base in the brain and that is what is being disturbed by a blow to the head? I know one could just explain being knocked out as a reduction in the cetasika of attention, but if the cetasikas are physically supported in the heart base, why should a blow to the head have the effect of "knocking out" attention? I hope this doesn't seem too pedantic a question. Perhaps the question is how literally are we to take the heart base as "the physical cavity inside the heart" to be? If it is taken as strictly literal, then what are we to make of modern medicine's ability to remove a person's heart and keep them alive (and conscious) on a machine outside the body pumping their blood? Without a heart, do they still have a heart-base? If so, where is it? And not to get too gruesome here, but what about the medical possibility of entirely removing a person's body below the neck and keeping them alive, at least for some period of time, artificially pumping blood to their brain? I don't see any fundamental reason this couldn't be done, though it does seem rather unwholesome. What becomes of the physical support base for their cittas and cetasikas then? Toby 24871 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] The heart base Dear Toby: Toby:"I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the > heart base as the physical support for the mind > element and mind-consciousness. I know this base is > not specifically stated in the Abhidhamma proper, > but I assume the commentary that names it is > authoritative. Any comments are appreciated." ------------------------------------------------------ Toby, the Abhidhamma doesn´t partake the Aristotelic disregard of the heart´s role on human being. Since the elaboration of sense-door datum and further evaluation of Citta and cetasika´s predicament are tasks due to cognitive appareil, so you got the brain´s role as a "Dramatis Personna" of this act. And the heart ? Think about how our feelings and thoughts are connected with other centers of conscience of our body - for The Abhidhamma is irrelevant if you get the fish with a hook or a net, since you get it. --------------------------------------------------- Toby:" The obvious question is, what about the brain? My > understanding is that the heart base is the physical > support for citta and cetasika, while the brain can > be understood as the physical support for > mind-objects that are presented to the mind-door." ----------------------------------------------------- The Brain, the Heart, the Guts, &c, are the "Dramatis Personnae" of the act of elaborate reality or Dhamma. Our mind embodied in our brains can even take the main role, but human being is a complete set of relationships! Think about it! ------------------------------------------------------ Toby: " If that is so, would it be correct to say that when > a cetasika such as perception "marks" a mind-object, > that this is another case of consciousness produced > matter, in that the physical support for the > mind-object (in the brain) is altered in some way by > the mark?" ------------------------------------------------- Toby, I could say that Citta and Cetasika are events that interact one each other, or others... as the Potential fields on a Movement Lagrangian Equation, but I won´t take such analogy so far: one must take in account daily life on these issues! And excuse me...pardonnez-moi...but I got just now a very important event to attend!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24872 From: Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 4:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception Hi Nori, In the passages you quote "mind" and "consciousness" are the same khandha. It might have been better to translate "mind" as "consciousness". The word is citta. In terms of the 4 foundations the observation and clear comprehension of consciousness (citta anupassana) is for the purpose of counteracting a belief in permanence. The observation and clear comprehension of dhamma (dhamma anupassana) is for the purpose of counteracting a belief in a self, generally speaking, but any foundation will cover both of these as well as insight into dukkha. The three are inter-related. A good resource is Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm and Nina's "Abhidhamma In Daily Life" http://www.zolag.co.uk/ . It's sometimes a little tricky figuring out what the pali is for a translation. Larry Nori: "However in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) they are distinct entities. The following are passages in which they are referred: "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself... [2] "Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates? There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" 24873 From: Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception Hi Nori, I forgot to say "focused on mental qualities" is a translation of "dhamma aanupassanaa". Larry 24874 From: Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 8:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception Hi Nori (and a question for Nina), Re: "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself..." Looking at the sutta again, the object of citta anupassana seems to me to be a general state of mind rather than individual thoughts. saraaga.m citta.m translated by Soma Thera as "the consciousness with lust" could be interpreted as a lusty state of mind rather than a lusty thought. mahaggata.m citta.m translated as "the state of consciousness become great" refers to jhana but probably not the jhana nimitta (conceptual "sign" which is the object of jhana). The object of mindfulness would be instead the general unbounded state of consciousness that is jhana. "Citta" can be either mind or consciousness. I think "mind" would be a good translation for citta in this case. It isn't exactly the consciousness khandha that is the object of mindfulness. The object is more of a general nature. Nina, what do you think? Larry 24875 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] moha and ditthi Hi Larry, They are two different cetasikas. But when there is wrong view it is accompanied by, rooted in moha. Lobha is the other root that accompanies it. Nina op 01-09-2003 19:26 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > I > think avijjaasava (ignorance) is wrong view, 24876 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry, --- Larry wrote: > > The object that can be directly known is the people who wrote all > these emails. .... How are all those people knonw? What is experienced? ..... > However, I have some more thoughts on this. If you say that what > looks like a tree, sounds like a tree, feels like a tree, smells like > a tree, and tastes like a tree is not a tree, it is looking, hearing, > feeling, smelling, and tasteing, then I would agree this is logical. .... ..and of course all the sights, sounds, smells, tastes.... .... > But, this does not rule out concepts as a conditioned mental event > and it doesn't prevent one from calling this particular assembly of > sensations a tree. .... I agree with the second part anyway;-) 50% ..... >What it does do is deny the duality of "other". By > denieing that duality you are denieing objects (arammana). .... I get lost in duality theories. Concepts are arammana of thinking. No one says otherwise. But concepts can only ever be experienced by consciousness (citta) as concepts. They cannot be directly known as namas and rupas by panna. Just as the money-changer needed coins to know the details and realize the value, so does panna (in satipatthana) need namas and rupas to do its work. Just as a money-changer might give a theoretical analysis based on a conceptual description of those coins, panna can theoretically do its task, like now on DSG. But theoretical knowledge is always theoretical and still has to be based on right theory;-) ..... >So doing, > you are saying all there is is consciousness. .... No .... If, conventionally, > concepts are the object of consciousness then, ultimately, concepts > _are_ consciousness. So, voila, you have asserted that a concept is a > paramattha dhamma. I agree. .... I don't. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard and others - I'll get back to you all. Somehow the Larry-ping pong-along is being given priority, partly because it's quick;-) ======= 24877 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 1, 2003 11:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cankers Dear Nina (& Larry), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry, > I have to consider Sarah's post. Difficult! But someone else could have > desire for the citta of the arahat? Or is that not the meaning? Why is > the > Atthasalini saying: right up to the plane of gotrabhu there are asavas. > Actually the matter was: the object of asavas. ..... I'll also try to raise it in Burma with K.Sujin if I have a chance. Metta, Sarah ====== 24878 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Similes of the Snake and Raft Hi Andrew (Christine, Ken H & All). Thanks for letting us all share your discussion weekend too;-) ;-) Look forward to further reports. In appreciation of your hospitality too. ..... > On Saturday, I led a discussion on the Simile of the Snake Sutta > (which also includes the simile of the raft). Alaggadupama Sutta. I > noted that there is a translation discrepancy about the "dhamma" that > is to be treated like a raft and relinquished after "crossing over". > One source says it means good states/serenity, while Bhikkhu Bodhi > says it means the Teachings in toto. If anyone has any insight on > this point, please do share it. .... I think that when one reads these last lines and refers to the commentary notes B.Bodhi gives, then his translation seems correct. Also, I understand it to be the attachment to the raft and to the good states that should be abandoned, rather than the Teachings and good states themselves. Conveniently I can cut and paste some of these quotes from earlier posts I’ve written to Rob M and others: Simile of the Snake in the Nanamoli/Bodhi transl of MN, p227: “Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma- discourses, stnzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom, they do not gain a reflective aceptance of them. Instead they learn the Dhamma only for the sake of criticising others and for winning in debates, and they do not experience the good for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma. Those teachings, being wrongly grasped by them, conduce to their harm and sufering for a long time.” Note253: “MA [the commentary] explains that this passage is stated in order to show the fault in wrongly motivated acquisition of intellectual knowledge of the Dhamma - apparently the pitfall into which Arittha fell. The ‘good (attha) for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma’ is the paths and fruits. ***** Simile of the Raft p.229: “Bhikkhus, when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft, you should abandon even good states, how much more so bad states.” Note 225: ““Dhammaa pi vo phaatabbaa pageva adhammaa” MA identifies the good states with serenity and insight (samatha-vipassana), and paraphrases the meaning: “I teach, bhikkhus, even the abandoning of desire and attachment to such peaceful and sublime states as serenity and attachment, how much more so to that low, vulgar, contemptible, coarse, and impure thing that this foolish Arittha sees as harmless when he says that there is no obstruction in desire and lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure.” The commentator cites MN 66.26-33 as an example of the Buddha teaching the abandonment of attachment to serenity, MN 38.14 as an example of his teaching the abandonment of attachment to insight. Note that it is in each case the ATTACHMENT to the good states that should be abandoned, not the good states themselves. The Buddha’s injunction is not an invitation to moral nihilism or a proposal that the enlightened person has gone beyond good and evil. In this connection see MN 76.51” (end Bodhi quote> ***** Andrew, I hope you’re also considering the purchase of Samyutta Nikaya, transl by B.Bodhi. We also have the raft simile in this sutta: SN(1V, 238 The Vipers). ********** We read about a man’s adventure facing four deadly vipers, five murderous enemies,an even more scary sixth murderer, village-attacking dacoits and a great expanse of water to be crossed with no ferry or boat: “’The four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom’: this is a designation for the four great elements...... ‘The five murderous enemies’: this is a desgnation for the five aggregates ubject to clinging...... ‘The sixth murderer, the intimate companion with drawn sword’: this is a desgnation for delight and lust. ‘The empty village’: this is a designation for the six internal sense bases. If bhikkhus, a wise, competent, intelligent person examines them by way of the eye, they appear to be void, hollow, empty....by way of the ear....by way of the mind.... ‘Village-attacking dacoits’: this is a designation for the six external sense bases. The eye, bhikkhus, is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable forms, the ear..The nose...The tongue...The body..The mind is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena. ‘The great expanse of water’: this is a designation for the four floods; the flood of sensuality, the flood of existence, the flood of views, and the flood of ignorance. ‘The near shore, which is dangerous and fearful’: this is a designation for identity. ‘The further shore, which is safe and free from danger’: this is a designation for Nibbana. ‘The raft': this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is right view....right concentration. ‘Making effort with hands and feet’: this is a desgnation for the arousing of energy. ‘Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground’: this is a designation for the arahant.” ********** Let me know how any of this sounds and keep posting, Andrew! Share your MN readings with us. Metta, Sarah p.s >I was very excited at seeing the canals on Mars, > only to be told that there was a hair on the lens! A lesson in > visible object and mind object?.... ;-) Ken H, a real Middle Way masterpiece;-) Chris, a great and prompt summary;-) ============================================== 24879 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi Toby, This is mostly another sign-post note. It’s really great to have your contributions here and thank you very much for taking the time to give such a detailed and unusual introduction. I know it can’t be easy to describe the experiences you have shared. Thank you for your efforts to do so. You mention the Pacific NW and my geography is rather blurry. Dan, Connie and Mike are all in Oregon I think....[Maybe one day you can all have a Pacific NW DSG get together like the SE Qld DSGers Down Under;-)] Thanks for detailing your experiences. There is much to discuss, but it’ll all resurface in due course, I’m sure. In any case, I’m glad to hear about the positive effects on your health and well-being. It's so interesting that the Tipitaka seemed to fit like a glove when you first came across it, Toby. --- torloff87048 wrote: > At the time I made this breakthrough, I still had not been exposed to > Theraveda Buddhism or the Tipitaka. But in searching for teachings that > corresponded to my experience, I was eventually led to the Sutta on The > Four Foundations of Mindfulness, and from there into the whole Tipitaka. > These books describe exactly what I have been experiencing and lead me > further and further along the path to the end of suffering. I've been > gobbling them up and have continued to make a lot of progress in > eliminating unwholesome states. Because of my tempermental leaning > towards bare insight meditation, I particularly love the Abhidhamma. It > is surely one of the most astonishing revelations of truth ever > recorded. Not only that, but it really works. .... For most people, the details are a very slowly acquired taste if at all. Occasionally someone like yourself comes along who appreciates the Abhidhamma instantly. Of course, conditions and propensities are so very complex. Reading all your messages, there are many topics in Useful Posts which I think you’d appreciate when you have time. These are just a few posts from the archives set aside at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Scroll down to the following which I think are relevant to your threads: heart-base sanna (perception) Patisambhiddamagga vipassana satipatthana thinking concepts & realities dependent arising (paticca samuppada) vipallasa (perversions) ***** You can then follow the threads of discussions. Also, in the escribe back-up, you can use the search facility: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ If you’d like a copy of the entire archives on a word document disc for Xmas (easy to scroll through messages without ads and for searches even when away from the internet) contact RobM. Metta, Sarah ====== 24880 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 3:31am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, (RobK, Howard, Elias, Cooran DSGers, Suan, Mike & All) Sorry for the delay.... --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Sarah, > In an earlier message I corrected 'icchataa' to 'appicchataa'. I also > made reference to the 5 dhuras which is also incorrect. That should be > the five dhutadhammas as discussed in the AN commentary on > Mahakassapa. Wasn't there some DSG discussion on this some time ago? .... (By the time I wrote to Nori, I relised you must have meant ‘appicchataa’). Yes, a long time ago. Mahakassapa was of course foremost in these. I’ve just tracked down a discussion between us on this very topic in very early DSG days: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m320.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m331.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m438.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m446.html [by way of a diversion for RobK & Howard, I also found an interesting quote from you in one of these posts which is relevant to the ‘decline of the sasana’ thread I think: Jim: I'm not sure where you're going with this in regards to SN XVI.13, the Saddhammapatiruupakasutta. In its commentary there is an interesting section on pariyatti, pa.tipatti, and adhigamo. "When scriptural learning is declining, the practice declines: when the practice is declining, attainment declines. When scriptural learning is being fulfilled, individuals holding the scriptural learning fulfill the practice, fulfilling the practice they fulfill accomplishment." (SA ii 204). I have seen other similar passages that make it quite clear that pariyatti (scriptural learning) is a condition(paccaya) for pa.tipatti (practice), and pa.tipatti is a condition for adhigamo” ] ***** [...] >Fewness of wishes and contentment are included in the > five ascetic practices (dhutadhammas) and relate to alobha. > Kaayaviveka (bodily seclusion) would be another interesting one to > look at. I don't know if this is included among the dhutadhammas, > perhaps in pavivekataa. .... I’m sure many of the dhutangas relate to or are included. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/dhutaanga.htm My question, I suppose, is whether these don’t just refer to the life of the bhikkhu already highly accomplished in jhanas and other attainments such as MahaKassapa? .... >I also like the 'nekkhamma' (renunciation) > that Suan brought up. This term also belongs to sammaasankappa (right > thought), the 2nd member of the noble eightfold path. .... Yes, but in the sense of renunciation from attachment, I think. I don’t see it as referring to ‘bodily seclusion’ at all. What do you think? http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nekkhamma.htm ..... [....] > I think it would be a good idea to keep in touch with these > ex-bhikkhus of whom I hardly know anything about. I know that it can > be unhealthy for solitaries to cut off all communication with other > Buddhists for years on end. We need to stay in touch with each other > in one way or another. ..... I agree with all this. One ex-bhikkhu we know, Kieran (Sundhara), joined the Cooran weekend. Azita is about to post an article by another, Chittapala. At least another two I know are members of DSG. Hopefully, we’ll be able to have more contact. It can be difficult when us city folks are so busy.....;-) ..... [...] >There's no point in trying to > convince a solitary forest dweller (a rare thing) that he'd be much > better off in the big city or to ask him to justify his chosen way of > life. .... I think the more we understand about conditions, accumulations and anatta, the easier it becomes to ‘live and let live’. I had meant to suggest this to Elias who wrote a very nice post about communicating with his mother. K.Sujin always reminds us to be ‘the understanding person’. - just to accept others as they are and to show kindness without expectations. .... > I don't think it has to be 100% solitary confinement. There is some > good commentary on MN1 describing a balance between living alone in > the forest and interacting with society and why many of the suttas > give two locations of the Buddha's abode: the place of resort (a > village, town, or city) and the place of contemplation (eg. at the > foot of a tree). .... Do you mean in the Mulapariyayasutta? Do you think the ‘foot of a tree’ references refer to those who have already attained jhana or are highly adept in this regard? ... > Until this year, I was in the habit of only going to the village for > groceries once a month and then I got to thinking about the bhikkhu > going into the village for his almsfood every day. So I've been > working to change my habit to going in once a week and also using this > day as a day for wandering about extensively on foot and mingling in > with the people and traffic. I was so surprised at how many friendly > people I met in the village on Thursday and how quick and willing they > were to assist me. .... I’m glad to hear it. Opportunities for metta and also for appreciating and giving others the opportunity for metta. .... [...] >I much agree with what you write. I believe that a > solitary life can be lived in such a way that it can be beneficial > both to the individual and those around him. It doesn't have to be the > way of an anti-social hermit. I very much wish to apply the Theravada > teachings in my daily life. .... I agree and appreciate these comments. No one would ever doubt your sincere appreciation and confidence in the Theravada teachings. You mentioned in another note that you’d been considering correlations between quiet vs busy life and other factors, inc samathayaanika vs vipassanayaanika. I think this opens a whole new dimension and maybe part of the crux of the matter for many. I think we then see that not only are personal inclinations and preferences at work, but also views and understandings about ways of practice, especially relating to the development of samatha. I’m happy to consider or discuss any of these areas further. I know you’ve considered them all very carefully and always have helpful comments and references. Hopefully we'll be hearing more feedback from the Cooran group and others like Suan and Mike as well. Metta, Sarah ==== 24881 From: jaranoh Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 3:33am Subject: Re: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 11. Dear Nina: Thank you for sharing your study. I am trying to digest it. Will sure have some questions. Thanks, jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > ****** > (The end.) > With thanks to Jim and Dimitri, who inspired me to carry on this study. > Nina. 24882 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Nori, I apologise for the delay. I hadn’t forgotten your question, but I don’t find your qus easy to answer simply. Please keep asking them nonetheless;-) --- norakat147 wrote: > hi sarah, > > I asked mike n. this also, and I think I can predict the answer, but > i figured i'd ask. ..... > What do you think life would be like dwelling in a forest in Sri > Lanka (or any other thera-buddhist dominated country), living off > alms with a small backpack and tent (moving from place to place; as > opposed to a monastery)? > > Would it be any more conducive to the ending of dukkha (than living > as a householder in a busy city with a job with long hours) ? ..... I hope you can help Mike to share his comments here (always very fine imho) with everyone, so I can just agree with what he says;-) I was thinking of your qu just now as a typhoon is rapidly approaching HK. I think, the first typhoon or monsoon would soon blow you and your tent away, if you weren’t attacked by snakes, elephants, insects or robbers first. However, with right understanding anything is OK - even being blown away in a typhoon. There are still the namas and rupas that are the objects of satipatthana which you’re reading about in the sutta. Nina and Jon recently wrote these comments: Nina: “.....One's house,social contacts and work are no impediments for insight, because the development of insight is the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doors. They are sabhaava dhammas, they each have their own characteristic that appear. John: “Good reminders, Nina. There is nothing about our daily life that need impede the development of insight, even though we may have thoughts to that effect from time to time. That kind of thinking can be recognised for what it is -- just thinking (conditioned by wrong view, no doubt). ..... Later in the post: John: “First comes the understanding at an intellectual level of the connection between *awareness of the nama or rupa appearing now* and *attainment to the path*. I think this step is perhaps the biggest hurdle to surmount; I know that in my own case it was a long time before I really felt comfortable about the idea of awareness of the presently appearing nama or rupa being 'all there is to it', or at least as much as was needed for a person of my (very limited)level of understanding.” ***** Nori, I was also interested in your discussion with Ray and others on ‘passivity in Buddhism’. As you know, there is no self at all. You mentioned being ‘focused on liberating ourselves from suffering’. Indeed, there is no self to be liberated. You wonder what right action is and give many examples of relieving others’ physical suffering and so on. As I’ve said before, so many of your comments and inclinations remind me so much of my own. However, it is all just thinking when we have these ideas. In truth, there’s only ever one citta (moment of consciousness) at a time and only ever one reality that can be known. Understanding the truth at this moment without any selection or idea of self is the path of detachment and the way to understand the Noble Truths of suffering...eventually. Back to your original question and reference to the simple life as compared to the long hours in an office job. Nori, I’ve written to you before about a time I spent in Sri Lanka. by contrast, for the last 20 years in HK Jon and I have both had demanding jobs and very long work hours, 6 days a week. It’s all just the norm in HK. Neither of us have ever considered our busy lives, demanding jobs or even being very sick at times as impediments to ending dukkha. Certainly they have been impediments to reading as much as we might like or to studying Pali and so on, but not to the development of satipatthana. Only ignorance is the real obstacle whether we’re living in the tent or monastery or high-rise. ..... From the Netti-ppakarana.m,65: “ ‘by ignorance is the world shut in, Ajita’ the Blessed One said. ‘ ‘Tis undisplayed through miswishing (vivichhaa) and neglect, and hankering smears it, I say; Suffering is its greatest fear’ “ Sn1033; Pe13,83) “Bhikkhus, I say that, relatively speaking (pariyaayato), all creatures, all breathing things, all beings, have one hindrance only, that is to say, ignorance; for all beings, have ignorance as hindrance. And bhikkhus, it is with the entire cessation of ignorance, with giving it up and relinquishing it, that creatures have no more hindrance, I say.” Netti, 499: “Of those who have ignorance for their hindrance and craving for their fetter no first beginning is evident as they run on and on and go the roundabout (cf Sii,178ff), now in hell, now among animals, now in the ghost realm, now in the body of the Asura Demons, now among gods, now among men.” Nori, I hope there is something of help. Metta, Sarah ====== 24883 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 11. Hi Jaran & Nina, --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear Nina: > > Thank you for sharing your study. I am trying to digest it. Will sure > have some questions. .... Glad to see you around, Jaran. Are you coming to Burma? We'll also be at the foundation the weekend before for discussions as will several others. Look f/w to your questions. It's been a great series. Thank you for sharing it, Nina and for all the research. It's all under 'Dhamma' in UP (or will be when updated), if anyone wishes to refer to the whole series easily. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ===== 24884 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impediments (II) Thanks, Nina. Very clear. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: ... > N: To gain the supernormal powers the yogavacara has to attain the > fourth > jhana, have masteries of jhana, and cultivate the four iddhiipaada, > bases of > success. While jhanacittas arise he cannot be aware of nama and > rupa > appearing through the six doors. When he emerges from jhana he has > to make a > resolve for the supernormal power he wants to attain, such as to > become many > (Vis. XII, 57). He is indeed distracted from the goal of > penetrating the > characteristic of dhammas (conditioned phenomena) appearing one at > a time > through the six doors. When he is an arahat already it is a > different > matter. > Nina. 24885 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg]object and root conditions. Nina and Icaro --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Icaro, ... > As I said, it is difficult to really know what the visible is, that > which > appears through the eye-door. It is difficult to know what a > doorway is. I > do not claim to understand these things, but let me be the parrot, > as our > friend Num says, imitating what I learnt: when your eyes are closed > and then > you open them, something appears what was not there before. There > is not yet > an image, but through eyes only: just colour or what is visible. > The same > through ears: when you do not pay attention to the source or the > meaning of > the sound, but just the characteristic of sound is heard, you can > consider > the meaning of audible object. This is the way to learn what sense > objects > are. No need to think of them as concepts in the mind. It would be > wonderful > if Jon would butt in and add something. I like to be reminded. I'm not sure that I can add anything of use here. I too find the sense-door objects to be elusive customers. I do find it useful to reflect on the basics of the mechanics as explained in the texts. Perhaps I may just expand a little on Icaro's original statement: > Citta receives the Rupa > external our door-senses as an object perceived by the > eye, the ear, etc, and as a concept of mind itself! The object of all sense-door experience is 'raw' sense-door data, for example, visible-data in the case of eye-door experience, or audible-data in the case of ear-door experience. Sense-door data is just that. It may not experienced in chunks that correspond to the 'things' that we take as being the 'source' of the data. Visible data, for example, is not necessarily experienced in discrete packages that correlate to trees, people etc; so at the moment of being experienced there is no tree or person in the visible data. Thus the perception of the experience of things such as trees and people is a creation of the mind, in the sense that that is not how the world is actually being experienced at that moment. Saying that it's a creation of the mind, however, is not meant to imply that it is 'purely imagined', since even the enlightened being similarly creates objects out of sense-door experiences. It simply means it's a perception that relies on inferences drawn from the way things are actually experienced. There is nothing 'wrong' with this, except that for the worldling there are conditions for such perception to be accompanied by wrong view. As Icaro says, consciousness tends to take the sense-door data as objects perceived by the sense faculties (e.g., as 'tree' being perceived by the eye). In doing so it is off-base on 2 counts: there is no perception of 'objects' *as objects*, and what perception there is is by consciousness and not by the physical faculty, which is merely the base for the arising of the consciousness. As I said earlier, I fully agree with Nina that dhammas such as visible-object are difficult to know, they are elusive. However, reflective consideration of the 'basics' such as we are now discussing is useful, and can be a condition for better 'real-time' understanding, although not at an occasion (i.e., as to time or kind of dhamma) of our choosing. No expectations! Jon 24886 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:11am Subject: More on Money-changers Hi Larry & Jon,(Jim & Suan), You were having a discussion about the role of vitakka (applied thinking) in sustained concentration. Jon wrote: J: “The question of what is the factor that causes/allows sustained concentration to occur has come up for discussion before (I remember Howard raising it on occasion). From memory, the relevant factor here is vitakka, the mental factor that has the function of striking at the object. In sustained concentration, vitakka strikes at the same object successively, as I understand it.” ..... As we know, when vitakka is a factor of the eightfold path it is referred to as sammaa-sankappa (Right Thinking). I came across the following quote regarding its importance to samma-di.t.thi (Right View)and the money-changer simile: Sammohavinodanii 441: “ Also as regards Right View and Right Thinking, understanding cannot of its own nature determine an object as “impermanent, painful, no-self”, but with applied thought giving [assistance] by repeatedly beating [upon the object] it can. How? Just as a money-changer, having had a coin placed in his hand and being desirous of looking at it on all sides equally, cannot turn it over with the power of his eye only, but by turning it over with his finders he is able to look at it on all sides; likewise understanding cannot of its own nature determine an object as impermanent, etc, but with applied thought with its characteristic of focussing the mind and its function of striking and threshing, as it were beating and turning over, it can take what is given and determine it. Therefore Right View only is included here in the understanding group as being of the same kind, but Right Thinking is included because of its action [of assisting].” (The 3 groups are the virtue group, the concentration group and the understanding group). Nina also writes more about vitakka in ‘Cetasikas’. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas10.html Jim & Suan may be interested to read the quotes and comments on nekkhama(thought of renunciation) at the end of the short ch on vitakka as being one of the 3 kinds of kusala vitakka, along with avyaapaada (thought of non-malevolence) and avihi’msa (thought of non-harming. Metta, Sarah ====== 24887 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > As much as many of us "modern folk" would tend to balk at > this, and > call it imbalanced, and pessimistic, I am certain that it is > absolutely correct. > The very fact that we are "in" samsara, where dukkha is central, > requires > that at the level of actual experience, the paramatthic level, the > three poisons > must be primary, and most kammic states must be akusala. Because of > this fact, > it is truly a great boon to us that the possibility of change, > radical > change, is still open to us at any split-second moment. By studying > and > contemplating the Dhamma, and by engaging in cultivation as we > (individually) understand > the Buddha to have instructed, we plant the seeds any one of which > may blossom > into the tree of freedom when conditions are right. Then it doesn't > matter > that the overwhelming aggregate of states are akusala - the one > moment of > liberating wisdom saves the day. > > With metta, > Howard Thanks for these comments. I agree that there is no cause for pessimism. Although life is mostly akusala, that is no bar to the pursuit of the way out of samsara. Our boon is that we have been born into an environment where the necessary information for the [further] development of that way out is available, and that because of past efforts in that direction we appreciate the urgency of seizing that opportunity. However, like with facing up to the fact that 'akusala rules' (as Mike so aptly put it), we should also be honest with ourselves as to how little of the knowledge necessary to progress along the way (i.e., how little insight) has been developed to date and, consequently, how long the road ahead. Thanks for sharing your reflections, and for your well-considered posts of late on our old friend concepts. Jon 24888 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Money-changers Dear Sarah: Sarah:"You were having a discussion about the role of > vitakka (applied thinking) > in sustained concentration. Jon wrote: > > J: “The question of what is the factor that > causes/allows sustained > concentration to occur has come up for discussion > before (I remember > Howard raising it on occasion). From memory, the > relevant factor > here is vitakka, the mental factor that has the > function of striking > at the object. In sustained concentration, vitakka > strikes at the > same object successively, as I understand it.” > ..... > As we know, when vitakka is a factor of the > eightfold path it is referred > to as sammaa-sankappa (Right Thinking)." ------------------------------------------------------ Sarah, as an illustrative example you can take a quote as the Paticca-Samuppada or the "Namo Tasso Bhagavato Arahato Sammasambuddhassa". At each word that definies a kind of Buddha´s essence, you are hitting out or touching the same object at Citta with a vocal intimation (vagiviññatti - "as a mantra" you could say) or with your mind - Vitakka. You can identify two aspects of this Citta operation: Sama-Samkhapa and Samma-Sati. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24889 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 8:23am Subject: The Role Of Brain In Abhidhamma : Re: The heart base Dear Toby and all How are you? Toby wrote: "The obvious question is, what about the brain? My understanding is that the heart base is the physical support for (citta and cetasika), while the brain can be understood as the physical support for mind- objects that are presented to the mind-door." What you wrote above is only partially true. The heart base is the physical support only for mental consciousness (manoviññaa.na) and its mental associates (cetasikas). For the five-sense-door consciousnesses and their mental associates such as visual consciousness and its cetasikas, though, the five- sense-door receptors (pasaadas) found in the head serve as their physical supports. ------------------------ Abhidhamma reference is as follows. "Taani hi ajjhattike pa`nca pasaade vatthum katvaa uppajjanti." "Those (five-sense-door consciousnesses) emerge by making the internal five receptors the base(s)." Section 762, Vibha`nga A.t.thakathaa The above line of commentary is an elaboration on the following Vibha`nga original Pali. "pañcannam viññaa.naanam vatthu ajjhattikaa aaramma.naa baahiraa" "The base of the five (perceptual) consciousnesses are internal while their objects or stimuli are external." Section 762, Vibha`nga Pali, Abhidhamma Pi.taka. --------------------------- As the five internal receptors (representing eyes, ears, tongue, nose, skin) can all be found in the head, and are directly connected to the brain, we can safely say that Abhidhamma does not overlook the role of brain for the emergence of perceptual consciousnesses such as visual consciousness. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "torloff87048" wrote: Hi All, I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the heart base as the physical support for the mind element and mind-consciousness. < snip> Toby 24890 From: connie Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 9:15am Subject: peace, Icaro Thanks for all the great inspiration, Icaro. While you're off practicing field exercises and whatever, I'll be drilling in grammar & hoping I'm better at that than I ever was at marching. Looking forward to hearing the Buddhist cadences you pull out of the Mother's cupboard. I'm not in the army anymore, but I salute you, Sir. connie 24891 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg]The book of Analysis Hi Howard, The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga) could be on your future list. Also good for Icaro, but for him the fateful 13th is approaching. His departure. The Intro is excellent, and fascinating examples for daily life (as quoted before, about conceit), but also lists in it. The book is rather big. Just curious to know what was in New York Library. Nina. 24892 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The heart base and Patthana. Dear Toby and Icaro, Icaro explained very well the role of the heartbase. I just would like to add a few things from the Patthana op 01-09-2003 20:52 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > ----------------------------------------------------- > The Brain, the Heart, the Guts, &c, are the > "Dramatis Personnae" of the act of elaborate reality > or Dhamma. N: It is western tradition to stress the brain so much. But also liver, blood, etc. play their part in our functioning, dramatis personae. We are nama and rupa and thus, when citta arises it needs a physical base. For the sense-cognitions (seeing etc.) these are the sense bases, and all cittas other then these have another physical base, a rupa, and for convenience sake it is called heart base. In the Patthana it is referred to as "that rupa". The Comy explains that it is somewhere near the heart, but we should remember that Buddhism is not medical science. It does not matter how it is called and where it is exactly located, but it performs its function of being a base, vatthu. Brain: if the doctor pierces your brain, it hurts. Then at that place there is bodybase: it conditions the body-consciousness and pain by being its base, vatthu. If you burn your finger, that spot is body-base for that moment. Sortly afterwards there is dosa, and that has the heartbase. At this moment you cannot experience your brain directly. It is a mass of rupas we call brain. Take the brain out and what do you see: colour. Touch it: hardness. It consists of countless rupas arising and then falling away, gone forever. It is a poor thing that brain we find so important. Kamma produces at the first moment of life the rebirth-consciousness and at the same time three units of ten rupas, dasakas: one contains bodybase (bodysense, but very, very tiny, not yet developed) one the rupa of heartbase and one sex. At that moment (and only at that moment) heartbase and the citta condition one another by way of conascence-condition (sahajata paccaya). Citta could not arise without the heartbase and without the patisandhi-citta the heartbase could not arise. During life it is different. Then a base cannot condition citta at its arising moment, since rupa is too weak at its arising moment. It has to arise just before the citta it conditions, it conditions citta by way of base prenascence condition (vatthu purejata-paccaya). This is possible, because rupa lasts longer then citta (seventeen times longer). You may wonder, how is it possible that each citta grabs the right base. Yes, that is the way conditions work. It is all so extremely fast, no time to interfere! We read in the Patthana (Analytical Exposition): Cittas can be classified as mind-element and mind-consciousness-element. mind-consciousness-element includes the cittas other than the sense-cognitions and other than the cittas classified as mind-element (five-door adverting-consciousness, receiuving-consciousness). Thus one sentence of the Patthana is very compact and we should read it carefully: Here is reference to the rebirth-consciousness. Nina. 24893 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 10:10am Subject: subco Vis. 8: correction Dear Larry, subco Vis. 8: correction: A correction to be added to subco Vis. 8: Because of the meaning of crumbling away * the cycle (of birth and death) is called the world. (instead of the world is called the cycle) And add to footnote *: Atthasaalinii 47: For each sentence of the subco I have to pull out other books, to make a prestudy. Like: plane of seeing and development: Netti (the Guide) and Expositor II, about the Paths. Very interesting. I wait for you first. Nina. 24894 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22): Mind, Conciousness, and Perception Hi Larry, op 02-09-2003 05:04 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Re: "In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of > itself..." > > Looking at the sutta again, the object of citta anupassana seems to me > to be a general state of mind rather than individual thoughts. saraaga.m > citta.m translated by Soma Thera as "the consciousness with lust" could > be interpreted as a lusty state of mind rather than a lusty thought. N: just lobha-mulacitta, citta rooted in lobha, akusala citta. It can be desire for sense objects or concepts, anything. L: mahaggata.m citta.m translated as "the state of consciousness become > great" refers to jhana but probably not the jhana nimitta (conceptual > "sign" which is the object of jhana). The object of mindfulness would be > instead the general unbounded state of consciousness that is jhana. N: jhanacitta. Unbounded is used for a specifi jhana. L: "Citta" can be either mind or consciousness. I think "mind" would be a > good translation for citta in this case. It isn't exactly the > consciousness khandha that is the object of mindfulness. The object is > more of a general nature. N: I shall quote from my meanings of dhamma study: > However, in different contexts there is a differentiation of terms. The aggregate of consciousness is called vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, and it includes all cittas. For seeing-consciousness, the word cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is used.> Now about the fourth object of satipatthana, mindfulness of mental objects. I quote: <""dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharatii"ti-aadiisu (dii. ni. 2.373) nissattanijjiivataaya.m. and again, ³he abides watchful over certain dhammas²-dhamma implies absence of an entity or living soul.².... Remarks: The last sentence refers to the fourth Application of Mindfulness: contemplating dhammas in dhammas. All objects of mindfulness which have not been classified in the first three Applications of Mindfulness are classified in the fourth Application of Mindfulness. This Application includes the cetasikas which are the five hindrances, it includes the five khandhas, the six internal and the six external aayatanas (sense-bases), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four noble Truths. These are all dhammas without a living soul, they are not a person, not a being, not self. > Nina. 24895 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 9/2/03 2:46:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > p.s Howard and others - I'll get back to you all. Somehow the Larry-ping > pong-along is being given priority, partly because it's quick;-) > ======================== I'm in no rush. I've always liked ping pong anyway! It's good neck exercise to watch, and in this case, it's good mind exercise as well. Larry's question-challenges are very useful - and they save me from being the unorthodox one for a change! ;-) Right on, Larry! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24896 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 8:25am Subject: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha (Re: [dsg]object and root conditions.) Hi, Jon (and Nina & Icaro) - I like what you have to sayvery much in the post of yours I copy below, Jon. I'll make some comments on one point you raise. You write of the difficulty in observing sense-door objects in an unalloyed manner. At the end of your post you write "As I said earlier, I fully agree with Nina that dhammas such as visible-object are difficult to know, they are elusive." I agree that they are elusive and difficult to know. In fact, I would say, though you may well disagree, that without a long history of cultivation and without setting up specific helpful conditions, the task is near impossible. This is so, because to attempt see, under ordinary circumstances, what *actually* happens moment after moment in one's mindstream is like trying to see the exact appearance of the bumps and pebbles in the roadway as one hurtles down the highway on a moonless, sky-clouded, fog-filled night. Our minds are mired in reification of personal self and of "external objects", and in the grasping after and pushing away of these fictions - so much so that we don't even know what we are looking at. This, I think, is where the jhanas can play a beneficial role with regard to the arising of mindfulness, clear comprehension, and wisdom. Particularly, from the base of the 4th jhana (5th in Abhidhamma), there is a temporary suppression of the defilements, serving to temporarily disperse the clouds and the fog, and permitting the moonlight of insight to illuminate what comes and goes, which is then far more correctly observable should one then turn to investigation of dhammas. Now, I'm not saying that the jhanas are indispensable, just helpful. There will, without jhana practice, be ordinary occasions that occur at which the cloudiness and murkiness of one's mind is minimal, and, especially if other conditions are just right, mindfulness, clear comprehension, and even wisdom can arise, even quite dramatically and with lasting consequences. But the "odds" of this happening are better, I do believe, if one avails oneself of as much of the skillful means provided by the Buddha as possible. This is why I include samatha meditation in my practice along with study and contemplation of the Dhamma, guarding the senses, and carrying out ongoing mindfullness as best I can. I do think the samatha bhavana provides a useful support to all the rest. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/2/03 8:56:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Nina and Icaro > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: >Dear Icaro, > ... > >As I said, it is difficult to really know what the visible is, that > >which > >appears through the eye-door. It is difficult to know what a > >doorway is. I > >do not claim to understand these things, but let me be the parrot, > >as our > >friend Num says, imitating what I learnt: when your eyes are closed > >and then > >you open them, something appears what was not there before. There > >is not yet > >an image, but through eyes only: just colour or what is visible. > >The same > >through ears: when you do not pay attention to the source or the > >meaning of > >the sound, but just the characteristic of sound is heard, you can > >consider > >the meaning of audible object. This is the way to learn what sense > >objects > >are. No need to think of them as concepts in the mind. It would be > >wonderful > >if Jon would butt in and add something. I like to be reminded. > > I'm not sure that I can add anything of use here. I too find the > sense-door objects to be elusive customers. I do find it useful to > reflect on the basics of the mechanics as explained in the texts. > Perhaps I may just expand a little on Icaro's original statement: > >Citta receives the Rupa > >external our door-senses as an object perceived by the > >eye, the ear, etc, and as a concept of mind itself! > > The object of all sense-door experience is 'raw' sense-door data, for > example, visible-data in the case of eye-door experience, or > audible-data in the case of ear-door experience. > > Sense-door data is just that. It may not experienced in chunks that > correspond to the 'things' that we take as being the 'source' of the > data. Visible data, for example, is not necessarily experienced in > discrete packages that correlate to trees, people etc; so at the > moment of being experienced there is no tree or person in the visible > data. Thus the perception of the experience of things such as trees > and people is a creation of the mind, in the sense that that is not > how the world is actually being experienced at that moment. > > Saying that it's a creation of the mind, however, is not meant to > imply that it is 'purely imagined', since even the enlightened being > similarly creates objects out of sense-door experiences. It simply > means it's a perception that relies on inferences drawn from the way > things are actually experienced. There is nothing 'wrong' with this, > except that for the worldling there are conditions for such > perception to be accompanied by wrong view. > > As Icaro says, consciousness tends to take the sense-door data as > objects perceived by the sense faculties (e.g., as 'tree' being > perceived by the eye). In doing so it is off-base on 2 counts: > there is no perception of 'objects' *as objects*, and what perception > there is is by consciousness and not by the physical faculty, which > is merely the base for the arising of the consciousness. > > As I said earlier, I fully agree with Nina that dhammas such as > visible-object are difficult to know, they are elusive. However, > reflective consideration of the 'basics' such as we are now > discussing is useful, and can be a condition for better 'real-time' > understanding, although not at an occasion (i.e., as to time or kind > of dhamma) of our choosing. No expectations! > > Jon > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24897 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 1:30pm Subject: Ignorance (was Re: [dsg] Question for Sarah ...) Hello Sarah (Nori) and all, I really liked these quotes on ignorance. One of the byways we wandered down on the Cooran weekend concerned ignorance and animals. Do animals have more or less ignorance than human beings? One of our members thought that to say so was showing arrogant anthropocentric species-ism. (we do speak our minds :-)). Others pointed out that we are not locked into the human form with occasional 'disciplinary' or 'reward' trips into other forms. It included mention of the scriptures about the frog that heard the Dhamma just before it was squashed, and the bats in the cave that overheard some monks, who had a fortunate rebirths. (One wonders at the attribution to frogs and bats of the ability to understand human language ...) This conversation also touched on how kammically 'unlucky' one would be to have most of the 'good factors of life e.g. living in a time when the Dhamma was available, hearing the true Dhamma, living in a prosperous country, living a comfortable life with food and medical treatent readily available, being loved and kept safe - but to be an animal who couldn't understand the Dhamma [even though showing interest in the recordings of Brahma Viharas and, lately, the lectures of Bhikkhu Bodhi. [Rusty is cultivating his mind :-))] So, do animals have more ignorance than humans .. Idle thoughts arise about what proportion of one's uncountable lives are spent as a human compared to more unfortuanate forms of births - a bit scary to go there ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Only ignorance is the real obstacle whether we're living in the tent or > monastery or high-rise. > ..... > From the Netti-ppakarana.m,65: > > " `by ignorance is the world shut in, > Ajita' the Blessed One said. > ` `Tis undisplayed through miswishing (vivichhaa) and neglect, and > hankering smears it, I say; > Suffering is its greatest fear' " Sn1033; Pe13,83) > > "Bhikkhus, I say that, relatively speaking (pariyaayato), all creatures, > all breathing things, all beings, have one hindrance only, that is to say, > ignorance; for all beings, have ignorance as hindrance. And bhikkhus, it > is with the entire cessation of ignorance, with giving it up and > relinquishing it, that creatures have no more hindrance, I say." > > Netti, 499: > > "Of those who have ignorance for their hindrance and craving for their > fetter no first beginning is evident as they run on and on and go the > roundabout (cf Sii,178ff), now in hell, now among animals, now in the > ghost realm, now in the body of the Asura Demons, now among gods, now > among men." > > Nori, I hope there is something of help. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 24898 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 2:56pm Subject: Re: The heart base Hi Toby, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "torloff87048" wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the heart base as the physical support for the mind element and mind-consciousness. I know this base is not specifically stated in the Abhidhamma proper, but I assume the commentary that names it is authoritative. Any comments are appreciated. > > The obvious question is, what about the brain? My understanding is that the heart base is the physical support for citta and cetasika, while the brain can be understood as the physical support for mind-objects that are presented to the mind-door. If that is so, would it be correct to say that when a cetasika such as perception "marks" a mind-object, that this is another case of consciousness produced matter, in that the physical support for the mind-object (in the brain) is altered in some way by the mark? === In the original Abhidhamma texts, this was "the matter that the mind element is based upon". In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered in the heart (not the brain). The writers of the commentaries, following the tradition at the time (but not the Buddha's words), called this the "heart-base". It was clear to the ancients that sensory data moved in the body and the only thing that they could see moving in the body was blood. Obviously, the heart has a primary role in moving blood and so the ancients placed great importance on the heart. Even today in common speech we say, "I love you with all my heart" and the heart is seen as the source of emotions. Consider the eye-consciousness citta. This citta and the associated cetasikas (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, life faculty and attention) have the eye-base as physical support. Do we interpret this literally and say that there is a point in the eye which supports consciousness and the associated mental factors? Does it make sense to identify this with a specific part of the biological eye? I don't think that we can take this too literally. Consider what happens at the moment of rebirth. From a biological perspective, at this moment there exists only one cell but, from an Abhidhamma perspective, the heart-base rupa arises at this moment as a foundation for the rebirth linking citta. Again, it does not make sense to completely associate a base with a physical biological organ. There are some interesting parallels between Abhidhamma and science. However, one must not forget the objective of the Dhamma. The Buddha was not a scientist, focused on creating a realistic model for the physical world. Consider the Simsapa Sutta (Sn LVI.31 – reproduced in whole here because it is short): === Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them. "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them. "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" === Toby, I hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 24899 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The heart base Hi Rob M. This is a wonderful post of yours. ("Yours" = Conditions associated with this post.) ;) Great common sense that brushes aside the unimportant and gets to the important. TG In a message dated 9/2/2003 2:59:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > In the original Abhidhamma texts, this was "the matter that the mind > element is based upon". In classical India, it was believed that the > mind was centered in the heart (not the brain). The writers of the > commentaries, following the tradition at the time (but not the > Buddha's words), called this the "heart-base". It was clear to the > ancients that sensory data moved in the body and the only thing that > they could see moving in the body was blood. Obviously, the heart > has a primary role in moving blood and so the ancients placed great > importance on the heart. Even today in common speech we say, "I love > you with all my heart" and the heart is seen as the source of > emotions. > > Consider the eye-consciousness citta. This citta and the associated > cetasikas (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, > life faculty and attention) have the eye-base as physical support. > Do we interpret this literally and say that there is a point in the > eye which supports consciousness and the associated mental factors? > Does it make sense to identify this with a specific part of the > biological eye? I don't think that we can take this too literally. > > Consider what happens at the moment of rebirth. From a biological > perspective, at this moment there exists only one cell but, from an > Abhidhamma perspective, the heart-base rupa arises at this moment as > a foundation for the rebirth linking citta. Again, it does not make > sense to completely associate a base with a physical biological > organ. > > There are some interesting parallels between Abhidhamma and science. > However, one must not forget the objective of the Dhamma. The Buddha > was not a scientist, focused on creating a realistic model for the > physical world. Consider the Simsapa Sutta (Sn LVI.31 – reproduced > in whole here because it is short): > > === > > Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. > Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the > monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, > the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa > forest?" > "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. > Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." > "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct > knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I > have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not > connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy > life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to > cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to > Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them. > "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination > of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of > practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have > taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are > connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, > and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to > direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I > have taught them. > "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This > is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' > Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice > leading to the cessation of stress.'" > > === > > Toby, I hope that this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > 24900 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 11 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 11. 4. In the third dyad, when a man wants to begin insight, his understanding of the defining of the four immaterial aggregates is understanding as "defining of mentality", [439] and his understanding of the defining of the material aggregate is understanding as "defining of materiality". So it is of two kinds as the defining of mentality and of materiality. 24901 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 Hi all, What's this all about: insight, mentality and materiality, defining? Larry 24902 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] peace, Icaro Dear Connie: Connie:" Thanks for all the great inspiration, Icaro. While > you're off > practicing field exercises and whatever, I'll be > drilling in grammar & > hoping I'm better at that than I ever was at > marching. Looking forward > to hearing the Buddhist cadences you pull out of the > Mother's cupboard. > I'm not in the army anymore, but I salute you, Sir. > connie" -------------------------------------------------- Thanks Connie!!! Fortunately you don´t need marching along anymore or stress your voice with "Yes Sir! No Sir!" But I will carry on... after my "trainee" term at the boot camp I will go back to Rio and Ipanema Beach... but hang ten only at Sundays!!!! (Geeez...it´s good to be appreciated, Connie!) With Metta and Peace, Ícaro P.S.: Do you like music ? ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24903 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The heart base and Patthana. Dear Nina: Nina: "It is western tradition to stress the brain so > much. But also liver, > blood, etc. play their part in our functioning, > dramatis personae. We are > nama and rupa and thus, when citta arises it needs a > physical base. For the > sense-cognitions (seeing etc.) these are the sense > bases, and all cittas > other then these have another physical base, a rupa, > and for convenience > sake it is called heart base. In the Patthana it is > referred to as "that > rupa"." ---------------------------------------------------- It´s the way I see it. Aristotle ruled all philosophical western world for two thousand years with lamed and awkward concepts about these questions. The Abhidhamma´s teaching is perfectly clever and free of superstitions and wrong views: "that rupa", as the Patthana says, is that other basis of elaboration, or representation of reality, that is not only five senses based - the "Heart Basis" is their foundation. Even at the Jhana´s level of approach, the first ones - Pitti-Sukha ones- connected with discourse based thinking and "High Happiness" - denotes the existence of a foundation beyond the five senses - calling this "heart basis" or "liver basis" or whatever is only a matter of terminology irrelevant to Abhidhamma´s classification. It´s only "that rupa". ------------------------------------------------------ The Comy explains that it is somewhere near > the heart, but we should > remember that Buddhism is not medical science. It > does not matter how it is > called and where it is exactly located, but it > performs its function of > being a base, vatthu. ------------------------------------------------------ Nina, you are right. At future I will take the Comys with more confidence! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24904 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg]The book of Analysis Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/2/03 1:16:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga) could be on your future list. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Once Iget through the DHS and the Guide to Conditional Relations unscathed, I will look into that! ----------------------------------------------- Also good for> > Icaro, but for him the fateful 13th is approaching. His departure. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, close. All the very best to him! ----------------------------------------------- The Intro> > is excellent, and fascinating examples for daily life (as quoted before, > about conceit), but also lists in it. The book is rather big. > Just curious to know what was in New York Library. --------------------------------------------- Howard: It will be a while before I get there. (It's not all that easy to find the time to get into Manhattan.) Probably won't get there till late this month. I have to arrange for a library card first - I'm not a NYC resident. After that, I'll check their Buddhist inventory and report back. --------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24905 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Similes of the Snake and Raft Dear Sarah, i like the co quote about the raft a lot. It is troublesome to get B.B.transl from Sri Lanka, I remember the way to pay was troublesome. But it was at Mahamakut Bgk and in Jan. I can go there. Nina. 24906 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg]how long the road ahead Dear Jon and Mike, op 02-09-2003 14:19 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > However, like with facing up to the fact that 'akusala rules' (as > Mike so aptly put it), we should also be honest with ourselves as to > how little of the knowledge necessary to progress along the way > (i.e., how little insight) has been developed to date and, > consequently, how long the road ahead. N: I find it very helpful to be reminded of the development of insight by different people who write each in their own way. That is a boon we receive here in dsg. Just now Ken wrote about the middle way and gave the essence of it. Yes, and then that hair on the lens, priceless! I would like it very much if Mike would also add something, just to remind us of the long way ahead, but not being pessimistic about it. With appreciation, Nina. 24907 From: Date: Tue Sep 2, 2003 11:26pm Subject: thinking Hi Sarah, I would say discursive thinking (vicara) is an object of insight knowledge because it rises and falls. If you agree to that then possibly we could say "tree" doesn't rise and fall as a concept but does rise and fall as thought-conception (vitakka) and discursive thinking (vicara). How's that? Larry ps: also you might notice that discursive thinking isn't an object of citta anupassana but is an object of dhamma anupassana as included in the khandhas. pps: are ditthi as speculative thinking the same as vitakka avd vicara but with a different subject? Is "tree" kaama vitakka? Is "self" kaama vitakka? Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" vicára: 'discursive thinking' s.vitakka-vicára. vitakka: 'thought', 'thought-conception', is one of the 'secondary' (not constant) mental concomitants (s. Tab. II), and may be either karmically wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. - "There are 3 karmically unwholesome (akusala) thoughts: sensuous thought (káma-vitakka), hating thought (byápáda-v.), and cruel thought (vihimsa-v.). There are 3 karmically wholesome (kusala) thoughts: thought of renunciation (nekkhamma-v.), of hatelessness (avyápáda-v.), of not harming (avihimsá-v.) " The latter three constitute 'right thought', the 2nd link of the 8-fold Path (s. magga 2). On the 'Removal of Distracting Thoughts' (vitakka-santhána), s. M. 20 (tr. in WHEEL 21). vitakka-vicára: 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of the mind, the so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are constituents of the 1st absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions. (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, giving it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to the object. (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving to and fro of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind" (Vis.M. IV). (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its resounding; (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.). 24908 From: Elias Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 0:49am Subject: touch all, If we do investigate, nama is untouchible with the fifth sense. Rupa is able to be touched. As we investigate we understand rupa is anatta, it is not one object/thing, if we investigate even more we understand rupa is not many objects, it's not one object and it's not many objects, also i doubt it can be infinite objects. So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. so how come the touch is possible? /elias 24909 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi, Larry (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/3/03 2:27:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I would say discursive thinking (vicara) is an object of insight > knowledge because it rises and falls. If you agree to that then possibly > we could say "tree" doesn't rise and fall as a concept but does rise and > fall as thought-conception (vitakka) and discursive thinking (vicara). > How's that? > > Larry > > ps: also you might notice that discursive thinking isn't an object of > citta anupassana but is an object of dhamma anupassana as included in > the khandhas. > > pps: are ditthi as speculative thinking the same as vitakka avd vicara > but with a different subject? Is "tree" kaama vitakka? Is "self" kaama > vitakka? > > Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" > > vicára: 'discursive thinking' s.vitakka-vicára. > > vitakka: 'thought', 'thought-conception', is one of the 'secondary' (not > constant) mental concomitants (s. Tab. II), and may be either karmically > wholesome, unwholesome or neutral. - "There are 3 karmically unwholesome > (akusala) thoughts: sensuous thought (káma-vitakka), hating thought > (byápáda-v.), and cruel thought (vihimsa-v.). There are 3 karmically > wholesome (kusala) thoughts: thought of renunciation (nekkhamma-v.), of > hatelessness (avyápáda-v.), of not harming (avihimsá-v.) " The > latter three constitute 'right thought', the 2nd link of the 8-fold Path > (s. magga 2). > On the 'Removal of Distracting Thoughts' (vitakka-santhána), s. M. 20 > (tr. in WHEEL 21). > > vitakka-vicára: 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or > 'applied and sustained thought') are verbal functions > (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of the mind, the so-called 'inner > speech ('parole interieure'). They are constituents of the 1st > absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions. > (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, > giving it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the > consciousness to the object. > (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving to > and fro of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of > mind" (Vis.M. IV). > (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its > resounding; (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis > . IV.). > > ======================== Without any knowledge of details, the direction being taken here, your identification of "thoughts" with vitakka, vicara, and sa~n~na (I would add), seems right to me. Actually, I think that what we often take for a single thought is a structured, interrelated sequence consisting of many of these three activities - but it also seems to me to make sense that in every such case, there must be a single (but possibly repeated) culminating higher-level act of sa~n~na that marks, sums up, and recalls as a unit any such sequence of mental actions. It seems to me that sa~n~na has a unifying, unit-making function, which is why it plays a crucial role in our tendency towards reification. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24910 From: jaranoh Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 5:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 11. Dear Sarah: Sorry for lerking. Will try to keep up with dsg more. For Burma trip, it's a bit expensive for a 7-day trip (40k baht?). We are going to skip it although I'd like very much to join you all. Enjoy the trip. Thankful, jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jaran & Nina, > > --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear Nina: > > > > Thank you for sharing your study. I am trying to digest it. Will sure > > have some questions. > .... > Glad to see you around, Jaran. Are you coming to Burma? We'll also be at > the foundation the weekend before for discussions as will several others. > > Look f/w to your questions. It's been a great series. Thank you for > sharing it, Nina and for all the research. It's all under 'Dhamma' in UP > (or will be when updated), if anyone wishes to refer to the whole series > easily. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== ______________________________________________________________________ _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo. com.hk 24911 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 5:29am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, Thanks for your response. As it is rather long, I'm only responding to some parts of it. [...] > Jim: I'm not sure where you're going with this in regards to SN XVI.13, > the Saddhammapatiruupakasutta. In its commentary there is an interesting > section on pariyatti, pa.tipatti, and adhigamo. "When scriptural learning > is declining, the practice declines: when the practice is declining, > attainment declines. When scriptural learning is being fulfilled, > individuals holding the scriptural learning fulfill the practice, > fulfilling the practice they fulfill accomplishment." (SA ii 204). I have > seen other similar passages that make it quite clear that pariyatti > (scriptural learning) is a condition(paccaya) for pa.tipatti (practice), > and pa.tipatti is a condition for adhigamo" ] > ***** I have since found some more interesting details on this in the subcty. to Buddhappiya's Mahaaruupasiddhi (a Pali grammatical treatise). The threefold saasana is ultimately grounded on skilfulness in the 41 Pali letters (including grammar) for when this exist there is the understanding of pariyatti (the tipi.taka with the a.t.thakathaa-s). This is great as it really underscores the worthwhileness of studying and gaining expertise in Pali. Pa.tipatti (practice) is the threefold training and pa.tivedha (penetration) is the attainment of the nine lokuttara dhammas. Pa.tivedha seems to be interchangeable with adhigama. > [...] > >Fewness of wishes and contentment are included in the > > five ascetic practices (dhutadhammas) and relate to alobha. > > Kaayaviveka (bodily seclusion) would be another interesting one to > > look at. I don't know if this is included among the dhutadhammas, > > perhaps in pavivekataa. > .... > I'm sure many of the dhutangas relate to or are included. Perhaps the dhutadhammas should be better regarded as ascetic qualities or principles instead of practices as in the 13 dhutangas. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/dhutaanga.htm > My question, I suppose, is whether these don't just refer to the life of > the bhikkhu already highly accomplished in jhanas and other attainments > such as MahaKassapa? I'm inclined not to agree that these ascetic qualities are found only in those like Mahaakassapa. I believe they can be cultivated by anyone who can appreciate them although probably not to the same advanced level as a Mahaakassapa, but one never knows for sure. > .... > >I also like the 'nekkhamma' (renunciation) > > that Suan brought up. This term also belongs to sammaasankappa (right > > thought), the 2nd member of the noble eightfold path. > .... > Yes, but in the sense of renunciation from attachment, I think. I don't > see it as referring to 'bodily seclusion' at all. What do you think? I think bodily or physical seclusion could be a part of it. The thought of renunciation seems to be what motivates one to go forth into a state of homelessness as a pabbajita. I'm fully aware that separating oneself from the desired object doesn't necessarily eradicate the desire for it but in certain situations it can help. As I indicated in an earlier post, nekkhamma is a term I'm not too familiar with and I would therefore have to do some more studying. [...] > > I don't think it has to be 100% solitary confinement. There is some > > good commentary on MN1 describing a balance between living alone in > > the forest and interacting with society and why many of the suttas > > give two locations of the Buddha's abode: the place of resort (a > > village, town, or city) and the place of contemplation (eg. at the > > foot of a tree). > .... > Do you mean in the Mulapariyayasutta? Yes. that's it, the commentary on it. I don't have B. Bodhi's translation but the Pali commentary can be found at Ps I 12f (§27) PTS edn. > > Do you think the 'foot of a tree' references refer to those who have > already attained jhana or are highly adept in this regard? I think it refers to both plus those who aspire to become adepts, but in general the idea is that the forest or wilderness is the primary abode of those who have gone forth (pabbajita). [...] > I'm happy to consider or discuss any of these areas further. I know you've > considered them all very carefully and always have helpful comments and > references. Hopefully we'll be hearing more feedback from the Cooran group > and others like Suan and Mike as well. I'm glad to have seen that there has been at least some interest shown by you and a few others. I suspect that solitary living in a forest hermitage will remain only of interest to a very small number of us, whether or not we are involved in Buddhism. I think that this kind of living has many advantages and offers a practical long-term solution for some, especially in a Western society. One great advantage is that it gives one a lot of free time to pursue such things as studying Pali or developing samatha as these do require a lot of time, effort, and patience. And as I said earlier simple solitary living is suitable for one who has the temperament for it. Best wishes, Jim 24912 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Howard (& Lary), I’ve read all your ‘positions’ and all seem partly right as far as my understanding of the teachings goes. I’ll try to clarify first: 1.In a mind-door process (as opposed to a sense-door process), the cittas (consciousness) and accompanying cetasikas (mental factors) can take as object: 1)cittas or cetasikas that have just fallen away, 2)rupas which have just fallen away, having been experienced in a sense door process OR concepts.(We’ll forget about nibbana for now;-)) 2. In the case of concepts experienced as arammana (object),they are not cittas, cetasikas or rupas which have just fallen away like the other objects. They never existed, were never experienced through the sense doors and never themselves experienced other namas or rupas. 3. Regardless of the object experienced in this mind-door process, the cittas and cetasikas perform their functions as it is experienced. So, as an example, sanna (perception) always arises and marks the object, whether it be a nama, a rupa or a concept. Similarly, vitakka and vicara (applied and sustained thinking) arise with each citta in the mind-door process, helping to ‘direct’ and ‘fix’ the citta onto its object. This is also true at moments when there is no thinking of concepts. 4. When it comes to sati(mindfulness) and panna(wisdom), naturally these only accompany wholesome cittas in the mind-door process. Sati accompanies all of these and panna some of them. Sometimes wholesome cittas have concept as object, for example when there is generosity or metta to a person or reflection on the Buddha’s qualities. 5. When we are referring to the development of satipatthana, vipassana, stages of insight, eightfold path and so on, however, only namas and rupas can be the objects of the cittas and accompanying sati, panna, vitakka, vicara, sanna and so on at these times. In other words, only these realities with specific qualities and characteristics can be directly known by insight, leading to enlightenment and the eventual eradication of all defilements. Understanding the truth about these same realities and their qualities is therefore essential. 6. What we conventionally refer to as thinking, would refer to many mind-door processes with concepts as objects. As the Buddha elaborated so well in suttas like the Mulapariyaya sutta, the difference between the wordling and the ariyan is that the wordling takes these experiences of concepts for being real, whereas the ariyan has no wrong view and understands exactly what realities really are. Direct insight can never develop merely by thinking about concepts. 7. The cittas and cetasikas that take concepts as objects are formed up and have all the characteristics of realities. They can be directly known. The concepts themselves -- no matter whether they relate to real or non-real percepts or concepts -- are only ever thought about and never exist in actuality to be directly known. Therefore, they do not have characteristics either. ***** So back to your last thought;-) H:> I've been mulling over exactly what it is that I mean for the most part when I speak of "thoughts", and I think that mainly, in addition to "the mind-door objects consisting of a variety of namas and rupas, including memories, feelings, emotions, images, odors, sounds, etc," what I most particularly have in mind are acts of mind-door sa~n~na, the makings of mental tags/markings and the reviewing of such. It is these cognitive events that I most view as "thoughts".< .... S: the mind-door objects also include concepts: Lll/aaa/rrr/yyy - concepts about concepts about concepts. One moment of seeing visible object and then many many mind-door processes experiencing concepts. As you point out, sanna plays a vital role, marking its object according to its accumulated nature at each moment. The same with vitakka, vicara and all the other factors involved. I wouldn’t say it is so much the ‘cognitive events’ but the objects of these experiences that are the thoughts. (Note: sometimes in translations, thought is used to refer to cittas or cetasikas such as vitakka. I think this tends to confuse more, so when Nina or I or some others here refer to thoughts, we’re referring to concepts experienced by cittas and cetaskikas. As RobK quoted before, Karunadasa writes rather well I think about pannattis (concepts) in “Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma’, Wheel 412/3. http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm Here’s a short extract: “Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the pannattis can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva sambhonti);and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)."Pannattis have no own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, presence, and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do not apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time (kalavimutta). For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional analysis of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included in the khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic of pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned(sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of the conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of underscoring their unreality.” ***** I think you’re both raising good points and questions and as you suggested, they need to be ‘ironed out’. I find it helpful to consider further and to try to clarify a I understand. Pls let me know whether this helps or not in zeroing in on the various ‘positions’. Metta, Sarah p.s I’ve only just seen the latest vitakka posts as I lost my internet connection today. Larry, lots of traffic on 7 (4);-) =================================== 24913 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re: touch Hi Elias, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Elias wrote: > all, > If we do investigate, > nama is untouchible with the fifth sense. > Rupa is able to be touched. > As we investigate we understand rupa is anatta, > it is not one object/thing, > if we investigate even more we understand rupa is not many objects, > it's not one object and it's not many objects, > also i doubt it can be infinite objects. > > So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch > would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. > so how come the touch is possible? The following has been summarized from Nina's book, "Rupas": Rupas do not arise singly; they arise in groups. Each group is composed of different kinds of rupa. All groups (body and non-body) include the four "Great Elements" (Maha-bhuta rupas). Other rupas in the group depend on Great Elements. They are: - Element of Earth or solidity (pathavi dhatu) - Element of Water or cohesion (Apo dhatu) - Element of Fire or heat (Tejo dhatu) - Element of Wind (air) or motion (Vayo dhatu) In this context, Earth, Water, Fire and Wind do not have the same meaning as in conventional language, neither do they represent conceptual ideas; they represent ultimate realities, specific rupas which each have their own characteristic. For example, the Element of Earth has the characteristic of hardness or softness. It can be directly experienced when we touch something. It may seem that hardness can last, but in reality it falls away immediately. The hardness which is experienced now is already different from the hardness that arose a moment ago. Rather than thinking of "cushion" or "chair", we can understand that we are experiencing hardness or softness when we sit. Viewing the body and things around us as groups of rupas may be a new outlook to us. Gradually we realize that rupas are not abstract categories. Rupas are realities appearing in daily life. Each reality has a distinguishing characteristic. For example, solidity has hardness (or softness) as characteristic. Rupas have functions in relation to nama or other rupas. For example, solidity acts as a foundation for the other rupas in its group. Smell could not arise alone, it needs solidity as foundation. Visible object needs solidity as a foundation, though solidity cannot be seen. Manifestation is the way a reality habitually appears. Solidity is manifested as receiving, it receives the other rupas (it acts as their foundation). Each of the four Great Elements has the other three as its proximate cause. The four Great Elements arise together and condition one another. Earth ===== Solidity can be internal or external (outside the body). Solidity is also present in what we call a mountain or a rock, in all material phenomena. Water ===== The element of water or cohesion cannot be experienced through the body-sense, only through the mind-door. When we touch what we call water, it is only solidity, temperature or motion which can be experienced through the body-sense, not cohesion. Cohesion has to arise together with whatever kind of materiality arises. It makes the other rupas it accompanies cohere so that they do not become scattered. Fire ==== The element of heat or temperature can be experienced through the body-sense and it appears as heat or cold. The element of heat accompanies all kinds of materiality which arises, rupas of the body and materiality outside. It maintains or matures them. The element of heat is one of the four factors which produce rupas of the body. Rupas which are materiality outside such as those of a plant or a rock are produced solely by temperature. The element of heat plays its part in the process of aging and in the digestion of food. So long as we are still alive the internal element of heat arises and falls away all the time. Wind ==== The rupa which is motion cannot be seen. The "conventional" meaning of motion is not the same as the element of wind or motion. We say that something has moved because there are different moments of seeing and thinking and there is association of these different experiences, but that is not the experience of the rèpa which is wind. This rèpa can be directly experienced through the body-sense. When we touch an object which has resilience, the characteristic of wind may present itself. This is the characteristic of the wind element. It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. The function of the element of wind is to cause motion and it is manifested as conveying. For example, it is a condition for the movement of the limbs of the body (but we should not confuse movement with the direct experience of this rupa through the body- sense). The element of wind arises with all kinds of materiality, both of the body and outside the body. With dead matter such as a pot, the element of wind ensures that the pot holds its shape and does not collapse. The element of wind plays its specific role in the strengthening of the body so that it does not collapse and assumes different postures; it is a condition for the stretching and bending of the limbs. Three of the four Great Elements can be tangible object: solidity (appearing as hardness or softness), temperature (appearing as heat or cold) and motion (appearing as motion or pressure). The element of cohesion is not tangible object, it can be experienced only through the mind-door. Visible object, odour and flavour are included in the "eight inseparable rupas" which always arise together. Though they arise together, only one kind of rupa at a time can be the object which is experienced. For example, when there are conditions for the experience of flavour, the flavour which impinges on the tasting sense is experienced by tasting- consciousness. Flavour arises together with the four Great Elements of solidity, temperature, cohesion and motion and with visible object, odour and nutrition, but these are not experienced at that moment. Metta, Rob M :-) 24914 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 3:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - I address myself to just one part of your post: In a message dated 9/3/03 9:36:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > 2. In the case of concepts experienced as arammana (object),they are not > cittas, cetasikas or rupas which have just fallen away like the other > objects. They never existed, were never experienced through the sense > doors and never themselves experienced other namas or rupas. > > ========================= I'm afraid this makes *no* sense to me. Besides nibbana, all there are are cittas, cetasikas,and rupas. Concepts, it is repeatedly asserted, do not exist. What does not exist can NOT and is NOT taken as an object. Anything asserted, positive or negative,about a non-existent, is literally either false or meaningless (or is a shorthand for an assertion quite different from the face value of the given assertion). If there are no concepts, then there are no concepts .. period. What we actually experience is what we actually experience. If we *think* that we are experiencing something that does not exist, then we are simply deluded in that respect, and we should not speak of cognizing what does not exist. To say "I am thinking of a tree" is merely to describe the nature of the flow of one's thoughts in a metaphorical fashion. Taken literally, it is simply false. The thing is, however, it seems to me that when you say "concept" you refer to the alleged referent of what I mean when I say "concept". To me, a concept is an internal mental phenomenon collection of such. To me, a concept is a thought. Now, as far as I'm concerned, we *do* cognize thoughts. Thoughts do arise, continue a bit, and cease. What they *are* exactly I can't say. I *think* they are primarily sa~n~na-created marks/signs. After all, what mind-door objects can it be that vitakka hits upon and vicara continues to probe other than sa~n~na-created marks? When one says that concepts don't exist, I take that to mean that, with the exception of concepts of paramattha dhammas, it is the alleged *referents* of concepts that do not exist. The concepts, themselves, per se, are thoughts - internal sankharic creations, most likely sa~n~na-created mental tags. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24915 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 4:06am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/3/03 10:55:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > To me, a > concept is an internal mental phenomenon collection of such. ========================== I meant to write "To me, a concept is an internal mental phenomenon OR collection of such." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24916 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: FW: meanings of dhamma, no 11. Dear Jaran, sure, there is a lot to discuss about this subject. It is useful even if you start with one question or remark about the beginning. No need to wait until you have digested all! Lodewijk asked when you will visit us again. Nina. op 02-09-2003 12:33 schreef jaranoh op jjn@b...: > Thank you for sharing your study. I am trying to digest it. Will sure > have some questions. 24917 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The physical bases. Dear Rob M, Thank you for your post. Very appropriate that you quoted the Singsapa suttaJust a remark about the eyebase. op 02-09-2003 23:56 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Consider the eye-consciousness citta. This citta and the associated > cetasikas (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, > life faculty and attention) have the eye-base as physical support. > Do we interpret this literally and say that there is a point in the > eye which supports consciousness and the associated mental factors? > Does it make sense to identify this with a specific part of the > biological eye? I don't think that we can take this too literally. N: That point in the eye is extremely tiny, but it is rupa. This is explained by the Dhammasangani, the Patthana, the Co to the Dsg, Atthasalini. I think we should not deny this. See Expositor II, p. 403: the eye of the flesh is towfold: the compound organ and the sentient organ. The sentient organ (eyesense) is situated in and bound to it. . It makes sense to me that rupa supports nama. We can also read this in the Patthana. It is very clear. Eyebase is a condition different from earbase. Where else would these rupas be but somewhere in the eye or the ear? Of course we cannot touch them or see them, and they fall away immediately after they have arisen. Kamma keeps on producing them throughout life. Nina. P.S. Were you in Hong Kong and how were your discussions with Sarah and Jon? 24918 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11, defining nama and rupa. Hi Larry, op 03-09-2003 02:15 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > What's this all about: insight, mentality and materiality, defining? >N: Very important: indispensable for insight. You have to know what nama is and what rupa, and be able to distinguish their different characteristics. A conditio sine qua non for the further development of insight. It is the first stage of tender insight. We read in the text: To begin is a rather flat translation of the Pali aarabhati: to undertake, to attempt. Aarambha: attempt, effort. It is often together with viriya, energy, courage or effort. There is the flavour of endeavour to aarabhati. We need courage and patience to "define" nama and rupa. We cannot expect a quick result. As we discussed, the three general characteristics cannot be known immediately. First the particular characteristics, visesa lakkhana have to be penetrated. I just listened to tapes of the late Abbot in the North of Thailand. He said: Yes only one characteristic, because there can be only one citta at a time. I have heard this many times from A. Sujin, but obviously the listening and considering has not been enough yet. We should not believe that we know all this already. I feel that the patience to consider nama and rupa is most important. He also said, if sati does not arise, it does not matter (maj pen rai), it is natural (thammada). Yes, the more we desire sati, the further from the goal. It is the function of panna to gradually develop and come to the stage of defining nama and rupa. Reminders from friends are welcome! Nina. 24919 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:17am Subject: FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 10 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:20:10 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 10 B ******* 10 B sikkhaakaamo hi aya.m aayasmaa, The venerable Rahula who was eager for training paatova gandhaku.tiparive.ne patthamatta.m vaalika.m okirati -- scattered early in the morning as much as a handful of sand in the area near the Fragrant Chamber, with the thought: ``ajja sammaasambuddhassa santikaa mayha.m upajjhaayassa santikaa ³May I receive today from the Buddha and from my preceptor ettaka.m ovaada.m ettaka.m paribhaasa.m labhaamii''ti. just so many words of exhortation and admonishment.² sammaasambuddhopi na.m etadagge .thapento -- The Buddha appointed him as foremost with the words: ``etadagga.m, bhikkhave, mama saavakaana.m bhikkhuuna.m sikkhaakaamaana.m yadida.m raahulo''ti The foremost, monks, among my disciples, who are monks eager for training, is Rahula.² sikkhaayameva agga.m katvaa .thapesi. Thus he appointed him as the foremost in training. sopi aayasmaa bhikkhusa"nghamajjhe tameva siihanaada.m nadi -- Moreover, the venerable Rahula uttered in the midst of the community of the monks this lion¹s roar: ``sabbameta.m abhi~n~naaya dhammaraajaa pitaa mama ³The King of the Dhamma, my father, who has known all this sammukhaa bhikkhusa"nghassa, etadagge .thapesi ma.m placed me foremost in the presence of the community of the monks. sikkhaakaamaanaha.m aggo, dhammaraajena thomito Praised by the King of Dhamma, I am the foremost of those who are eager for training, saddhaapabbajitaana~nca sahaayo pavaro mama and my noble friend (is foremost) of those who went forth out of confidence.* dhammaraajaa pitaa mayha.m The King of the Dhamma is my father, dhammaarakkho ** ca pettiyosaariputto upajjhaayo and the protector of the Dhamma, Sariputta who is like a father, is my preceptor. sabba.m me jinasaasana''nti. All of the Conquerer¹s teaching is for me.² **** English: The venerable Rahula who was eager for training scattered early in the morning as much as a handful of sand in the area near the Fragrant Chamber, with the thought: ³May I receive today from the Buddha and from my preceptor just so many words of exhortation and admonishment.² The Buddha appointed him as foremost with the words: The topmost, monks, among my disciples, who are monks eager for training, is Rahula. Thus he appointed him as foremost in training. Moreover, the venerable Rahula uttered in the midst of the community of the monks this lion¹s roar: ³The King of the Dhamma, my father, who has known all this placed me foremost in the presence of the community of the monks. Praised by the King of Dhamma, I am the foremost of those who are eager for training, and my noble friend (is foremost) of those who went forth out of confidence.* The King of the Dhamma is my father, dhammaarakkho ** ca pettiyosaariputto upajjhaayo and the protector of the Dhamma, Sariputta, who is like a father, is my preceptor. All of the Conquerer¹s teaching is for me.² ***** * The Tiika explains:< he mentioned in this connection his friend the Thera Ra.t.thapaala. He was placed foremost of those who went forth out of confidence.> ** The Tiika explains the word dhammaarakkho: < satthu saddhammaratanaanupaalako dhammabha.n.daagaariko. the teacher, the protector of the treasure of the true Dhamma, surveyor of the warehouse of dhamma-goods.> anupaalako: who guards aagaarika: belonging to a house, surveyor of a (store)house. **** Nina 24920 From: Elias Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:53am Subject: Re: touch all, and rob. this do not satisfy me, this do not fully answer what rupa is. as you might remember i read that therevada misses wisdom because they do not investigate, more mostly only develop mental stillness. if this is the way therevada answers what rupa is, it's not a complete answer. i will write more of emptiness. ex. chair, we will use chair as an exemple. through what you wrote it's build upon the four elements. at first sight there is a chair, if we look closer there's wooden parts, this wooden parts theirself if builded by wood, so theirs many many wooden objects that theirself creates a larger wooden part. These small wooden objects is different parts theirself, ex (water etc.).in the most science way this objects would be atoms. the atoms also have the be builded with other objects, or else the atoms couldn't exist. the objects that build up the atoms also they have to be builden by other objects, or else the atoms wouldn't exist, wouldn't theye xist, etc.etc. the chair wouldn't exist. the four elements is just a way of desribing but not fully investigate. A chair is not a chair, it's not one object. also it cannot be many objects, why? if it would be many objects, the objects would have a limit, but they do not, they continue infinite. simply there would only be emptiness, science can't discover that atoms are builded up by nothing, and that things exist by themself not builded up by anything. this can be hard to understand when ex there is science terms, H2O, is an exemple, that's water not onyl water but H and O). but H and O also need to be builed up by other objects or else they couldn't exist, they science way to anser this would be atoms. but atoms cannot exist by themself, they need to be builded up by other obhects as well, and this objects also have to etc.etc. so there's not one thing, and there's not many. this is one of the depest teachings in the mahayana, can be read in the heart sutra were avakoliteshvara(spelling?) speaks about it. As the main part in therevada seems to be calm, stillness, meditation, etc. mahayna do not onyl deal with that, wisdom is a major part as well. i do follow the theravada tradition, but if i am not satisfy of a text or others can't answer questions, i have to answer them myself, are the text etc. wrong, i still practice the theravada tradition ignoring that part, that seemed unright. /elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Elias, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Elias > wrote: > > all, > > If we do investigate, > > nama is untouchible with the fifth sense. > > Rupa is able to be touched. > > As we investigate we understand rupa is anatta, > > it is not one object/thing, > > if we investigate even more we understand rupa is not many objects, > > it's not one object and it's not many objects, > > also i doubt it can be infinite objects. > > > > So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch > > would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. > > so how come the touch is possible? > > The following has been summarized from Nina's book, "Rupas": > > Rupas do not arise singly; they arise in groups. Each group is > composed of different kinds of rupa. All groups (body and non-body) > include the four "Great Elements" (Maha-bhuta rupas). Other rupas in > the group depend on Great Elements. They are: > - Element of Earth or solidity (pathavi dhatu) > - Element of Water or cohesion (Apo dhatu) > - Element of Fire or heat (Tejo dhatu) > - Element of Wind (air) or motion (Vayo dhatu) > > In this context, Earth, Water, Fire and Wind do not have the same > meaning as in conventional language, neither do they represent > conceptual ideas; they represent ultimate realities, specific rupas > which each have their own characteristic. For example, the Element > of Earth has the characteristic of hardness or softness. It can be > directly experienced when we touch something. It may seem that > hardness can last, but in reality it falls away immediately. The > hardness which is experienced now is already different from the > hardness that arose a moment ago. > > Rather than thinking of "cushion" or "chair", we can understand that > we are experiencing hardness or softness when we sit. Viewing the > body and things around us as groups of rupas may be a new outlook to > us. Gradually we realize that rupas are not abstract categories. > Rupas are realities appearing in daily life. > > Each reality has a distinguishing characteristic. For example, > solidity has hardness (or softness) as characteristic. Rupas have > functions in relation to nama or other rupas. For example, solidity > acts as a foundation for the other rupas in its group. Smell could > not arise alone, it needs solidity as foundation. Visible object > needs solidity as a foundation, though solidity cannot be seen. > Manifestation is the way a reality habitually appears. Solidity is > manifested as receiving, it receives the other rupas (it acts as > their foundation). Each of the four Great Elements has the other > three as its proximate cause. The four Great Elements arise together > and condition one another. > > Earth > ===== > Solidity can be internal or external (outside the body). Solidity is > also present in what we call a mountain or a rock, in all material > phenomena. > > Water > ===== > The element of water or cohesion cannot be experienced through the > body-sense, only through the mind-door. When we touch what we call > water, it is only solidity, temperature or motion which can be > experienced through the body-sense, not cohesion. Cohesion has to > arise together with whatever kind of materiality arises. It makes > the other rupas it accompanies cohere so that they do not become > scattered. > > Fire > ==== > The element of heat or temperature can be experienced through the > body-sense and it appears as heat or cold. The element of heat > accompanies all kinds of materiality which arises, rupas of the body > and materiality outside. It maintains or matures them. The element > of heat is one of the four factors which produce rupas of the body. > Rupas which are materiality outside such as those of a plant or a > rock are produced solely by temperature. The element of heat plays > its part in the process of aging and in the digestion of food. So > long as we are still alive the internal element of heat arises and > falls away all the time. > > Wind > ==== > The rupa which is motion cannot be seen. The "conventional" meaning > of motion is not the same as the element of wind or motion. We say > that something has moved because there are different moments of > seeing and thinking and there is association of these different > experiences, but that is not the experience of the rèpa which is > wind. This rèpa can be directly experienced through the body-sense. > When we touch an object which has resilience, the characteristic of > wind may present itself. This is the characteristic of the wind > element. It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. The > function of the element of wind is to cause motion and it is > manifested as conveying. For example, it is a condition for the > movement of the limbs of the body (but we should not confuse > movement with the direct experience of this rupa through the body- > sense). > > The element of wind arises with all kinds of materiality, both of > the body and outside the body. With dead matter such as a pot, the > element of wind ensures that the pot holds its shape and does not > collapse. The element of wind plays its specific role in the > strengthening of the body so that it does not collapse and assumes > different postures; it is a condition for the stretching and bending > of the limbs. > > Three of the four Great Elements can be tangible object: solidity > (appearing as hardness or softness), temperature (appearing as heat > or cold) and motion (appearing as motion or pressure). The element > of cohesion is not tangible object, it can be experienced only > through the mind-door. Visible object, odour and flavour are > included in the "eight inseparable rupas" which always arise > together. Though they arise together, only one kind of rupa at a > time can be the object which is experienced. For example, when there > are conditions for the experience of flavour, the flavour which > impinges on the tasting sense is experienced by tasting- > consciousness. Flavour arises together with the four Great Elements > of solidity, temperature, cohesion and motion and with visible > object, odour and nutrition, but these are not experienced at that > moment. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24921 From: Elias Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:59am Subject: dsg, touch. i did get an answer in the dhammastudygroup yahoo-group. i will present it here, with my answer. also i do now know what the words meant that ranil wrote, it were the words of the four elements in pali language. original message: ~ all, > > If we do investigate, > > nama is untouchible with the fifth sense. > > Rupa is able to be touched. > > As we investigate we understand rupa is anatta, > > it is not one object/thing, > > if we investigate even more we understand rupa is not many objects, > > it's not one object and it's not many objects, > > also i doubt it can be infinite objects. > > > > So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch > > would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. > > so how come the touch is possible? re: post ~ > The following has been summarized from Nina's book, "Rupas": > > Rupas do not arise singly; they arise in groups. Each group is > composed of different kinds of rupa. All groups (body and non-body) > include the four "Great Elements" (Maha-bhuta rupas). Other rupas in > the group depend on Great Elements. They are: > - Element of Earth or solidity (pathavi dhatu) > - Element of Water or cohesion (Apo dhatu) > - Element of Fire or heat (Tejo dhatu) > - Element of Wind (air) or motion (Vayo dhatu) > > In this context, Earth, Water, Fire and Wind do not have the same > meaning as in conventional language, neither do they represent > conceptual ideas; they represent ultimate realities, specific rupas > which each have their own characteristic. For example, the Element > of Earth has the characteristic of hardness or softness. It can be > directly experienced when we touch something. It may seem that > hardness can last, but in reality it falls away immediately. The > hardness which is experienced now is already different from the > hardness that arose a moment ago. > > Rather than thinking of "cushion" or "chair", we can understand that > we are experiencing hardness or softness when we sit. Viewing the > body and things around us as groups of rupas may be a new outlook to > us. Gradually we realize that rupas are not abstract categories. > Rupas are realities appearing in daily life. > > Each reality has a distinguishing characteristic. For example, > solidity has hardness (or softness) as characteristic. Rupas have > functions in relation to nama or other rupas. For example, solidity > acts as a foundation for the other rupas in its group. Smell could > not arise alone, it needs solidity as foundation. Visible object > needs solidity as a foundation, though solidity cannot be seen. > Manifestation is the way a reality habitually appears. Solidity is > manifested as receiving, it receives the other rupas (it acts as > their foundation). Each of the four Great Elements has the other > three as its proximate cause. The four Great Elements arise together > and condition one another. > > Earth > ===== > Solidity can be internal or external (outside the body). Solidity is > also present in what we call a mountain or a rock, in all material > phenomena. > > Water > ===== > The element of water or cohesion cannot be experienced through the > body-sense, only through the mind-door. When we touch what we call > water, it is only solidity, temperature or motion which can be > experienced through the body-sense, not cohesion. Cohesion has to > arise together with whatever kind of materiality arises. It makes > the other rupas it accompanies cohere so that they do not become > scattered. > > Fire > ==== > The element of heat or temperature can be experienced through the > body-sense and it appears as heat or cold. The element of heat > accompanies all kinds of materiality which arises, rupas of the body > and materiality outside. It maintains or matures them. The element > of heat is one of the four factors which produce rupas of the body. > Rupas which are materiality outside such as those of a plant or a > rock are produced solely by temperature. The element of heat plays > its part in the process of aging and in the digestion of food. So > long as we are still alive the internal element of heat arises and > falls away all the time. > > Wind > ==== > The rupa which is motion cannot be seen. The "conventional" meaning > of motion is not the same as the element of wind or motion. We say > that something has moved because there are different moments of > seeing and thinking and there is association of these different > experiences, but that is not the experience of the rèpa which is > wind. This rèpa can be directly experienced through the body-sense. > When we touch an object which has resilience, the characteristic of > wind may present itself. This is the characteristic of the wind > element. It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. The > function of the element of wind is to cause motion and it is > manifested as conveying. For example, it is a condition for the > movement of the limbs of the body (but we should not confuse > movement with the direct experience of this rupa through the body- > sense). > > The element of wind arises with all kinds of materiality, both of > the body and outside the body. With dead matter such as a pot, the > element of wind ensures that the pot holds its shape and does not > collapse. The element of wind plays its specific role in the > strengthening of the body so that it does not collapse and assumes > different postures; it is a condition for the stretching and bending > of the limbs. > > Three of the four Great Elements can be tangible object: solidity > (appearing as hardness or softness), temperature (appearing as heat > or cold) and motion (appearing as motion or pressure). The element > of cohesion is not tangible object, it can be experienced only > through the mind-door. Visible object, odour and flavour are > included in the "eight inseparable rupas" which always arise > together. Though they arise together, only one kind of rupa at a > time can be the object which is experienced. For example, when there > are conditions for the experience of flavour, the flavour which > impinges on the tasting sense is experienced by tasting- > consciousness. Flavour arises together with the four Great Elements > of solidity, temperature, cohesion and motion and with visible > object, odour and nutrition, but these are not experienced at that > moment. > > Metta, > name-not-written :-) my answer: ~ all, and name-not-written. this do not satisfy me, this do not fully answer what rupa is. as you might remember i read that therevada misses wisdom because they do not investigate, more mostly only develop mental stillness. if this is the way therevada answers what rupa is, it's not a complete answer. i will write more of emptiness. ex. chair, we will use chair as an exemple. through what you wrote it's build upon the four elements. at first sight there is a chair, if we look closer there's wooden parts, this wooden parts theirself if builded by wood, so theirs many many wooden objects that theirself creates a larger wooden part. These small wooden objects is different parts theirself, ex (water etc.).in the most science way this objects would be atoms. the atoms also have the be builded with other objects, or else the atoms couldn't exist. the objects that build up the atoms also they have to be builden by other objects, or else the atoms wouldn't exist, wouldn't theye xist, etc.etc. the chair wouldn't exist. the four elements is just a way of desribing but not fully investigate. A chair is not a chair, it's not one object. also it cannot be many objects, why? if it would be many objects, the objects would have a limit, but they do not, they continue infinite. simply there would only be emptiness, science can't discover that atoms are builded up by nothing, and that things exist by themself not builded up by anything. this can be hard to understand when ex there is science terms, H2O, is an exemple, that's water not onyl water but H and O). but H and O also need to be builed up by other objects or else they couldn't exist, they science way to anser this would be atoms. but atoms cannot exist by themself, they need to be builded up by other obhects as well, and this objects also have to etc.etc. so there's not one thing, and there's not many. this is one of the depest teachings in the mahayana, can be read in the heart sutra were avakoliteshvara(spelling?) speaks about it. As the main part in therevada seems to be calm, stillness, meditation, etc. mahayna do not onyl deal with that, wisdom is a major part as well. i do follow the theravada tradition, but if i am not satisfy of a text or others can't answer questions, i have to answer them myself, are the text etc. wrong, i still practice the theravada tradition ignoring that part, that seemed unright. /elias 24922 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 11:08am Subject: pali fonts and Velthuis Dear Jim, I must learn to become independent in taking sutta and co from the net. It is good you will hibernate, otherwise I never will be independent. I tried the Tipitaka org recommended by Icaro. I do not know the most practical solution, but I copied a bit for trial, and did the search and replace command for 2 letters: .m and aa. I could more or less read the text with the funny signs beforehand and then find out the right letters, and it worked! I should make a separate list of all the funny signs and the proper Velthuis ones I need for replacing them. Is that the quickest? Then consulting my list I can get to work. I hope the Tipitaka also has Tika of Visuddhimagga, because meanwhile I may run out of texts, it depends on the tempo. Nina. 24923 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg, touch. Dear Elias: Elias: "i did get an answer in the dhammastudygroup > yahoo-group. > i will present it here, with my answer." ----------------------------------------------------- Great! it´s good to hear about a clarification of mind due of our dearly dsg!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Elias: "also i do now know what the words meant that ranil > wrote, > it were the words of the four elements in pali > language." ----------------------------------------------------- Don´t give up your mental fight, Elias! About this question about Rupa and four elements, I could humbly add that the Dhammasangani explains Rupa as a COMPLETE Dhamma by itself (last stanza of the Dsg fourth book) - so you can´t deny it as a profound component of mind: citta. The four elements sound as a shallow description fo reality...but consider them as Kusala dhammas or Vittakas due to good Kamma accumulations: Buddha hadn´t a scientifical concern on explaining up dhamma to others. His perspective is much more phenomenological than rational, without put off aside entirely the last one. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24924 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] pali fonts and Velthuis Dear Nina: Nina:" I tried > the Tipitaka org recommended by Icaro. I do not know > the most practical > solution, but I copied a bit for trial, and did the > search and replace > command for 2 letters: .m and aa. I could more or > less read the text with > the funny signs beforehand and then find out the > right letters, and it > worked! > I should make a separate list of all the funny signs > and the proper Velthuis > ones I need for replacing them. Is that the > quickest? Then consulting my > list I can get to work. > I hope the Tipitaka also has Tika of Visuddhimagga, > because meanwhile I may > run out of texts, it depends on the tempo. ---------------------------------------------------- It does have it !!!! www.tipitaka.org has also The Visuddhimagga-mahatika and the Visuddhimagga-nidaanakatha complete in Pali!!! Good Luck !!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24925 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: touch Hi Elias First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result of wisdom/insight in Theravadin. It is not something to try to "artificially establish" as it would appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. First develop wisdom, wisdom then overcomes views, attachments, etc., and the mind "turns away" from samsara. Wisdom is always the most important factor in the Sutta Pitaka. Your question is very difficult to understand. Part of that difficulty might be due to the broken English. But most of the difficulty seems to come from mixing science, philosophy, abhidhamma, Mahayana in a disorganized manner. Regarding this question: >>So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch >>would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. >>so how come the touch is possible? 1) Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are conditioned by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is nothing there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., emptiness. Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing things incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, chairs, bodies, etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the mind needs to learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously changing due to the interaction. 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. 3) Nama and rupa are both energies. Nama is energy associated with cognition. Rupa is energy other than that. 4) The Four Great Elements represent the direction and structure of the energy flow. 5) Touch is possible because energies are interacting. They affect each other. From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the SuttaPitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading the Suttas before I even realized the depth at which they were speaking. I came to realize that the Suttas are speaking about "real things/states" whereas Mahayana by comparison is generally philosophically oriented. Initially, I also thought Mahayana was more wisdom oriented, but after some serious months of study (now 22 years) I came to understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking about the Sutta Pitaka and not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.) TG In a message dated 9/3/2003 10:59:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, crystalmelodyhaven@y... writes > all, and rob. > this do not satisfy me, this do not fully answer what rupa is. > as you might remember i read that therevada misses wisdom because > they do not investigate, more mostly only develop mental stillness. > if this is the way therevada answers what rupa is, > it's not a complete answer. > > i will write more of emptiness. > > ex. chair, we will use chair as an exemple. > through what you wrote it's build upon the four elements. > at first sight there is a chair, if we look closer there's wooden > parts, this wooden parts theirself if builded by wood, so theirs many > many wooden objects that theirself creates a larger wooden part. > These small wooden objects is different parts theirself, > ex (water etc.).in the most science way this objects would be atoms. > the atoms also have the be builded with other objects, or else the > atoms couldn't exist. the objects that build up the atoms also they > have to be builden by other objects, or else the atoms wouldn't > exist, wouldn't theye xist, etc.etc. the chair wouldn't exist. > > the four elements is just a > way of desribing but not fully investigate. > > A chair is not a chair, it's not one object. also it cannot be many > objects, why? if it would be many objects, the objects would have a > limit, but they do not, they continue infinite. simply there would > only be emptiness, science can't discover that atoms are builded up > by nothing, > and that things exist by themself not builded up by anything. > > this can be hard to understand when ex there is science terms, > H2O, is an exemple, that's water not onyl water but H and O). > but H and O also need to be builed up by other objects or else they > couldn't exist, they science way to anser this would be atoms. > but atoms cannot exist by themself, they need to be builded up by > other obhects as well, and this objects also have to etc.etc. > > so there's not one thing, and there's not many. > this is one of the depest teachings in the mahayana, > can be read in the heart sutra were avakoliteshvara(spelling?) > speaks about it. As the main part in therevada seems to be calm, > stillness, meditation, etc. mahayna do not onyl deal with that, > wisdom is a major part as well. > > i do follow the theravada tradition, but if i am not satisfy > of a text or others can't answer questions, > i have to answer them myself, are the text etc. wrong, > i still practice the theravada tradition ignoring that part, > that seemed unright. > > /elias 24926 From: connie Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: peace, Icaro Dear Icaro, It isn't often, but I do still find myself going mindlessly along with properly curled fingers, taking the regulation 30" stride. It's good for a laugh, especially if I'm in lock-step with someone else. So was your reminder of the ONLY time I yelled out "Yes, Drill Private!" at boot camp. I do like music, but hardly ever play it anymore. Was just now listening to a dhamma talk that ended in time for me to hear a whiny buzzing sound that must've come from one of the two flies I picked out of my cup. What I 'hear' in my head more often than music, as well as to any tune, is Nichiren's nam-myoho-renge-kyo. (Although I've read he was not the first to chant it). Not saying it's a good thing, just that it's there, like my walk. Earlier, I brushed aside a couple flies mating on the computer screen and don't know how many would-be fly babies might've had to go elsewhere then. But, I remembered that I still haven't gotten back with Sarah about intermediate states/bardo and really don't know that I will pursue it. I'm still content to think of bardo as a string of moments like any other lifetime. I don't appreciate the flies, but suppose there are worse places to start out than on a computer playing dhamma talks. vanda then, since I don't know how to conjugate it yet, connie 24927 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: touch Hi Elias, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > all, and rob. > this do not satisfy me, this do not fully answer what rupa is. > as you might remember i read that therevada misses wisdom because > they do not investigate, more mostly only develop mental stillness. > if this is the way therevada answers what rupa is, > it's not a complete answer. It helps if each of us trim the post to which we are replying. If we do not do this (I forget sometimes, too), then exchanges become extremely long. Let me try to explain this in a different way. There is a woman living in my house. I see her as "wife". My kids see her as "mommy". The person next door sees her as "neighbour". Our doctor see her as "patient". The salesperson sees her as "customer". All of these perspectives are correct. Our perspective depends on our relationship with the object. Molecular structure, molecules, atoms and subatomic particles is the scientist's perspective of tangible object. A scientist tries to create a model for reality, but this is only one perspective. A phenomenologist sees tangible object as being hardness, temperature and motion. A phenomenologist focuses on input from the senses - this is an equally valid perspective. I am going to repeat here a portion of a recent posting of mine (24898): There are some interesting parallels between Abhidhamma and science. However, one must not forget the objective of the Dhamma. The Buddha was not a scientist, focused on creating a realistic model for the physical world. Consider the Simsapa Sutta (Sn LVI.31 – reproduced in whole here because it is short): === Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them. "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them. "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'" === A radical phenomenologist denies the relevance of existence of those things that do not impinge on the senses. The Buddha's perspective does not fit neatly into the definition of radical phenomenlolgy; the Buddha's view focuses on "things connected with the goal (Nibbana), relate to the holy life, etc." The Buddha's view extends beyond that of a radical phenomenologist in that it also includes the understanding that all things except Nibbana (contacting the senses or not) have the three characterisitics of anicca (impermanance), dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (non-self). Elias, I hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 24928 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: touch Hi, TG - I don't usually do this .. and many folks frown on it .. but I just can't let your post go by without shouting out "Sadhu X 3"! This is one of the most delightful succinct praisings of "Tipitaka Buddhism" I have seen. (I know you only mention the Sutta Pitaka, but what you say fits perfectly well with Abhidhamma also, it seems to me.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/3/2003 5:26:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458 writes: > > Hi Elias > > First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result of wisdom/insight in > Theravadin. It is not something to try to "artificially establish" as it would > appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. First develop wisdom, > wisdom then overcomes views, attachments, etc., and the mind "turns away" from > samsara. Wisdom is always the most important factor in the Sutta Pitaka. > > Your question is very difficult to understand. Part of that difficulty might > be due to the broken English. But most of the difficulty seems to come from > mixing science, philosophy, abhidhamma, Mahayana in a disorganized manner. > > Regarding this question: > >>So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch > >>would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. > >>so how come the touch is possible? > > 1) Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are conditioned > by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is nothing > there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., emptiness. > Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing things > incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, chairs, bodies, > etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the mind needs to > learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously changing > due to the interaction. > > 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. > > 3) Nama and rupa are both energies. Nama is energy associated with > cognition. Rupa is energy other than that. > > 4) The Four Great Elements represent the direction and structure of the > energy flow. > > 5) Touch is possible because energies are interacting. They affect each > other. > > From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the > SuttaPitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading the Suttas before I > even realized the depth at which they were speaking. I came to realize that > the Suttas are speaking about "real things/states" whereas Mahayana by > comparison is generally philosophically oriented. Initially, I also thought Mahayana > was more wisdom oriented, but after some serious months of study (now 22 > years) I came to understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana > schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking > about the Sutta Pitaka and > not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.) > > TG 24929 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: peace, Icaro Dear Connie: connie :"I do like music, but hardly ever play it anymore. > Was just now > listening to a dhamma talk that ended in time for me > to hear a whiny > buzzing sound that must've come from one of the two > flies I picked out > of my cup." ------------------------------------------------------ Surf slang... Personally, I like very much the H.H. Dalai Lama audiotapes! Relaxing! But what kind of music do you like ? Heavy Metal ? Salsa & Merengue ? Latin ? Beach Boys (good for surfing...hahahah!!!)? Elton John...? ------------------------------------------------------- Connie: "What I 'hear' in my head more often than > music, as well as > to any tune, is Nichiren's nam-myoho-renge-kyo. > (Although I've read he > was not the first to chant it). Not saying it's a > good thing, just that > it's there, like my walk." ---------------------------------------------------- I like the melody of the Nam Myoho Rengue Kyo: last Sunday I was strolling at the Hippie´s Fair at Ipanema and I heard two ladies chant it. Amazing! But Nichiren´s Daishonin´s buddhism, even totally based on Lotus Sutta, doesn´t appeal me very much. I am a bit traditional on my viewpoints! ----------------------------------------------------- >Connie:" Earlier, I brushed aside a couple flies mating on > the computer screen > and don't know how many would-be fly babies might've > had to go elsewhere > then. But, I remembered that I still haven't gotten > back with Sarah > about intermediate states/bardo and really don't > know that I will pursue > it. I'm still content to think of bardo as a string > of moments like any > other lifetime. I don't appreciate the flies, but > suppose there are > worse places to start out than on a computer playing > dhamma talks." ------------------------------------------------------- Think about the chain of thinking/feeling that starts with the hear-conscience of perceiving the Dhamma talk,connected with the akusala moods about the two flies that leads to a definite action to trap them inside your cup. Freud could call this a "failed act"... but let´s view this at the Abhidhamma´s stands: it´s only a reaction of a state of mind connected with akusala and the rupa of flies, that leads to a definite action: now you have got two flies traped on your cup. Kamma begins its flow. Did you not killed them...huh ? ------------------------------------------------- > Connie: "vanda then, since I don't know how to conjugate it > yet, > connie" --------------------------------------------------- Oh, don´t despair!!! With patience you will reach the other shore... and me, an English not so squared!!! Mettaya and peace, Ícaro P.S.: but... speaking seriously: did you not kill the flies, right ? ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24930 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: touch Dear TGrand TGrand:"First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result > of wisdom/insight in > Theravadin. It is not something to try to > "artificially establish" as it would > appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. > First develop wisdom, > wisdom then overcomes views, attachments, etc., and > the mind "turns away" from > samsara. Wisdom is always the most important factor > in the Sutta Pitaka." ---------------------------------------------------- Well, TGrand, your approach is Mahayana to the marrow and bone! At Theravada, Wisdon - Pañña - is the end of a process that begins with Sila - Discipline. It´s not a "finality" as an Aristotelic concept. For western minds it sounds strange, but think about the tasks endowed at the man or woman that takes the first step on Path, the Sotapanna: to clean and purify one own´s mind of wrong views, connected or not with pleasure or knowledge. It´s not Philosophy at general view... it´s an existential step. ------------------------------------------------------ > TGrand:" 1) Emptiness means that -- things have no-self > because they are conditioned > by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning > that there is nothing > there. Things are very real, but they are empty of > self, i.e., emptiness. > Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" > it is viewing things > incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things > as desks, trees, chairs, bodies, > etc., which imbues things as self existing > "object-entities," the mind needs to > learn to see things as elements that are interacting > and continuously changing > due to the interaction." ----------------------------------------------------- This concept of Emptiness is more akin of the Mahayana´s shunyatta. The Theravada takes this question for another side, with sometimes a strong grammatical colors! ---------------------------------------------------- > TGrand:" 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both > energies. > > 3) Nama and rupa are both energies. Nama is energy > associated with > cognition. Rupa is energy other than that." ------------------------------------------------------ You are mixing concepts that are very, very different in meaning. "Energy" is a term coined by Aristotle, that meant originally the immobile axle of a mobile Wheel. Rupa and Nama are aggregates of elements of existence, and Rupa is a Complete Dhamma by itself! ------------------------------------------------- TGrand:" From someone who had studied Mahayana for years > before studying the > SuttaPitaka, I can tell you that it took several > months of reading the Suttas before I > even realized the depth at which they were speaking. > I came to realize that > the Suttas are speaking about "real things/states" > whereas Mahayana by > comparison is generally philosophically oriented. > Initially, I also thought Mahayana > was more wisdom oriented, but after some serious > months of study (now 22 > years) I came to understand, that in terms of > wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana > schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am > speaking about the Sutta Pitaka and > not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.)" ----------------------------------------------------- Best studies! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24931 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 8:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi RobEp, > > Always good to see you;-) ;-) Thank you. Nice to see you too, and to see all the deep topics continuing to arise here. > > Well, I can't come around as often as I'd like, but thanks for letting > > me drop in from time to time to remind myself of what is real, and > > what is not. > .... > Don?t run away so fast!What?s the hurry? How?s your summer been and is the > drama book finished? Meet some of our newer members and talk to Larry when > he gets frustrated with my clumsy language & posts;-) > > Metta, > Sarah Yes, it seems like things are pretty exciting around here! Unfortunately for me, I'm pretty overwhelmed. I hope I can look at the Vism thread and trace it back a little after I finish some current projects. I'd like to see Nina's recent translation and some of the discussion.... > p.s Newbies, Rob Ep has the no 1 slot in the photo album. I think Emmy now > heads her own album of ?significant others?. Emmy is starting Kindergarten tomorrow - her first day of "real school." Pretty amazing. She's now five and doing great. Perhaps you can encourage > others to join - after all, weren?t you meant to be Keeper of the Album? Yes, and I have failed miserably, after a good beginning. I guess I'm finding all my responsibilities kind of overwhelming.... : ) I'll look forward to seeing you here again, and thanks for letting me "pop in." : ) Regards, Robert Ep. 24932 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 9:49pm Subject: *Jaran* -waiting for feedback;-)(was: meanings of dhamma, no 11.) Dear Jaran & Nina (& Rob Ep), --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear Sarah: > Sorry for lerking. Will try to keep up with dsg more. ..... That would be good;-)No need to apologise, but to be honest, I’m not sure if you stay around long enough to read slow replies to your occasional posts....;-( For example, you sent a bulletin of a discussion at the foundation w/ K.Sujin and asked a qu about ‘sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of insight)’. I was very slow getting back on this, but did eventually with more conversation w/ K. Sujin in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m19874.html A lot of discussion followed. You could follow the links at the end of the post. We'd be glad to hear any of your feedback. > Enjoy the trip. ..... Thx Jaran. I had hoped you and Kom would be joining, but understand about costs and so on. As many of us will be away at that time, any contributions of yours on DSG would be much appreciated. Nina may be away hiking as well, so Larry will be looking for Vism pals. (Rob Ep, perhaps you’ll be able to join in then if not before too;-)). Nina, you mentioned ordering B.Bodhi translations from Sri Lanka. So many of our orders have gone astray. When possible, we order now from Pariyatti which is very fast and efficient. You just need to give a credit card no., I think. You don’t need to live in the States. http://www.pariyatti.com/ Metta, Sarah ==== 24933 From: Elias Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:22pm Subject: Re: touch hi rob, anatta seems to be the important parts in these answers, anatta means no-self, but go the other direction to no-self, that would be many-self, infinite-selfs. and this cannot be, because an object can't exist by itself, if it's not builded by other objects, the main object cannot exist. So as you mentioned "wife". that would be human, a human form is builded up with organs, blood, hair etc. and these parts (blood, hair etc.) is builded up by cells, atoms etc. and these parts (atoms, cells) have to be builded up by other objects, smaller objects, or else they couldn't exist. ok, so it's anatta, no-self. now let's se how the object do exist, if it cannot be a 'self'. in that wa it has to be builded up by other objects, and they to is not a 'self'. you mentioned atoms etc, these things cannot just exist by nothing, they have to be builded up by minor objects to exist. as for the four elements, it is a good way to describe things, but what is the elements builded of? /elias It helps if each of us trim the post to which we are replying. If we > do not do this (I forget sometimes, too), then exchanges become > extremely long. > > Let me try to explain this in a different way. There is a woman > living in my house. I see her as "wife". My kids see her as "mommy". > The person next door sees her as "neighbour". Our doctor see her > as "patient". The salesperson sees her as "customer". All of these > perspectives are correct. Our perspective depends on our > relationship with the object. > > Molecular structure, molecules, atoms and subatomic particles is the > scientist's perspective of tangible object. A scientist tries to > create a model for reality, but this is only one perspective. A > phenomenologist sees tangible object as being hardness, temperature > and motion. A phenomenologist focuses on input from the senses - > this is an equally valid perspective. > > I am going to repeat here a portion of a recent posting of mine > (24898): > > There are some interesting parallels between Abhidhamma and science. > However, one must not forget the objective of the Dhamma. The Buddha > was not a scientist, focused on creating a realistic model for the > physical world. Consider the Simsapa Sutta (Sn LVI.31 – reproduced > in whole here because it is short): > > === > > Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. > Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the > monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, > the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa > forest?" > "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. > Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." > "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct > knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I > have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not > connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy > life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to > cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to > Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them. > "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination > of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of > practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have > taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are > connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, > and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to > direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I > have taught them. > "Therefore your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This > is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' > Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice > leading to the cessation of stress.'" > > === > > A radical phenomenologist denies the relevance of existence of those > things that do not impinge on the senses. The Buddha's perspective > does not fit neatly into the definition of radical phenomenlolgy; > the Buddha's view focuses on "things connected with the goal > (Nibbana), relate to the holy life, etc." The Buddha's view extends > beyond that of a radical phenomenologist in that it also includes > the understanding that all things except Nibbana (contacting the > senses or not) have the three characterisitics of anicca > (impermanance), dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (non-self). > > Elias, I hope that this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24934 From: Elias Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:24pm Subject: Re: dsg, touch. oh, this e-mail were sent to the wrong @yahoo.com adress :/ 24935 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Howard: "It seems to me that sa~n~na has a unifying, unit-making function, which is why it plays a crucial role in our tendency towards reification." Hi Howard, I'm tending to think of sa~n~na as a symbol maker and something that identifies by matching past symbol to present experience but I still don't have a clear understanding of what is meant by the "carpenter's mark". [We will discuss this further in a few weeks in the Vism. thread.] Here is something on "compactness" which might relate to your idea above: Vism. XXI, n.4: "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial staes have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm. 824). Larry: There's plenty to think about here. We will be revisiting this in about two years when we get to this part of the Visuddhimagga. 24936 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 6:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/4/03 1:37:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "It seems to me that sa~n~na has a unifying, unit-making > function, which is why it plays a crucial role in our tendency towards > reification." > > Hi Howard, > > I'm tending to think of sa~n~na as a symbol maker and something that > identifies by matching past symbol to present experience but I still > don't have a clear understanding of what is meant by the "carpenter's > mark". [We will discuss this further in a few weeks in the Vism. > thread.] > > Here is something on "compactness" which might relate to your idea > above: > > Vism. XXI, n.4: "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means > that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as > an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial staes have > arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for > example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of > mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And > likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite > differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as > one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although > differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make > them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are > seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, > they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They > are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this > way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm. 824). > > Larry: There's plenty to think about here. We will be revisiting this in > about two years when we get to this part of the Visuddhimagga. > =============================== Hmm. Yes, plenty to think about. The language is a bit dificult to follow, I find, but I agree that there is some richness here,and it seems quite important! This material seems to be getting at the guts of the matter of reification and corelessness. It seems to me that the Vism needs a far more fair reading than I have given it!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24937 From: Date: Wed Sep 3, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 Hi all, Here is part of Nyanatiloka's definition of "khandha": "Whatever there exists of corporeal things, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, all that belongs to the corporeality group. Whatever there exists of feeling ... of perception ... of mental formations ... of consciousness ... all that belongs to the consciousness-group" (S. XXII, 48). - Another division is that into the 2 groups: mind (2-5) and corporeality (1) (náma-rúpa), whilst in Dhamma Sanganí, the first book of the Abhidhamma, all the phenomena are treated by way of 3 groups: consciousness (5), mental factors (2-4), corporeality (1), in Páli citta, cetasika, rúpa. Cf. Guide I. What is called individual existence is in reality nothing but a mere process of those mental and physical phenomena, a process that since time immemorial has been going on, and that also after death will still continue for unthinkably long periods of time. These 5 groups, however, neither singly nor collectively constitute any self-dependent real ego-entity, or personality (attá), nor is there to be found any such entity apart from them. Hence the belief in such an ego-entity or personality, as real in the ultimate sense, proves a mere illusion. "When all constituent parts are there, The designation 'cart' is used; Just so, where the five groups exist, Of 'living being' do we speak." (S. V. 10). The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness. For example, with one and the same unit of consciousness only one single kind of feeling, say joy or sorrow, can be associated and never more than one. Similarly, two different perceptions cannot arise at the same moment. Also, of the various kinds of sense-cognition or consciousness, only one can be present at a time, for example, seeing, hearing or inner consciousness, etc. Of the 50 mental formations, however, a smaller or larger number are always associated with every state of consciousness, as we shall see later on. Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities ('heaps', 'bundles'), while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body- and -mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental formations are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities. In S. XXII, 56, there is the following short definition of these 5 groups: "What, o monks, is the corporeality-group? The 4 primary elements (mahá-bhúta or dhátu) and corporeality depending thereon, this is called the corporeality-group. "What, o monks, is the feeling-group? There are 6 classes of feeling: due to visual impression, to sound impression, to odour impression, to taste impression, to bodily impression, and to mind impression.... "What, o monks, is the perception-group? There are 6 classes of perception: perception of visual objects, of sounds, of odours, of tastes, of bodily impressions, and of mental impressions.... "What, o monks, is the group of mental formations? There are 6 classes of volitional states (cetaná): with regard to visual objects, to sounds, to odours, to tastes, to bodily impressions and to mind objects.... "What, o monks, is the consciousness-group? There are 6 classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness." About the inseparability of the groups it is said: ''Whatever, o brother, there exists of feeling, of perception and of mental formations, these things are associated, not dissociated, and it is impossible to separate one from the other and show their difference. For whatever one feels, one perceives; and whatever one perceives, of this one is conscious" (M. 43). Further: "Impossible is it for anyone to explain the passing out of one existence and the entering into a new existence, or the growth, increase and development of consciousness independent of corporeality, feeling, perception and mental formations" (S. XII, 53) For the inseparability and mutual conditionality of the 4 mental groups s. paccaya (6, 7). Regarding the impersonality (anattá) and emptiness (suññatá) of the 5 groups, it is said in S. XXII, 49: "Whatever there is of corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, this one should understand according to reality and true wisdom: 'This does not belong to me, this am I not, this is not my Ego.' " Further in S. XXII, 95: "Suppose that a man who is not blind were to behold the many bubbles on the Ganges as they are driving along; and he should watch them and carefully examine them. After carefully examining them, however, they will appear to him empty, unreal and unsubstantial. In exactly the same way does the monk behold all the corporeal phenomena ... feelings ... perceptions ... mental formations ... states of consciousness, whether they be of the past, present or future ... far or near. And he watches them and examines them carefully; and after carefully examining them, they appear to him empty, unreal and unsubstantial." The 5 groups are compared, respectively, to a lump of froth, a bubble, a mirage, a coreless plantain stem, and a conjuring trick (S. XXII, 95). http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm 24938 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 0:15am Subject: Bahiya1 intro (was peace, Icaro) Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > Dear Icaro, > > It isn't often, but I do still find myself going mindlessly along with > properly curled fingers, taking the regulation 30" stride. It's good > for a laugh, especially if I'm in lock-step with someone else. So was > your reminder of the ONLY time I yelled out "Yes, Drill Private!" at > boot camp. .... I see you’re well in lock-step with Icaro and have even learned ‘Icarish’....good for you and also for sharing your appreciation of his posts. He’s shown the world that Abhidhamma study doesn’t need to be DRY, ACADEMIC, HEAVY, SUPER-SERIOUS and so on. He’s also shown that one can still listen to music and march along. No need to become a robotic encyclopaedia. We’ll all look forward to any boot-camp diary Patthana reflections of his;-);-) .... > But, I remembered that I still haven't gotten back with Sarah > about intermediate states/bardo and really don't know that I will pursue > it. I'm still content to think of bardo as a string of moments like any > other lifetime. .... Not to worry, Connie, I’m about to pursue it anyway, as you’ve reminded me of a great quote I came across in the Udana commentary. I’m actually planning now to write a series of posts, including the one to you, from this same commentary to the well-know Bahiya Udana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html As I’ve had posts swimming round in my head for a while on this, I think I’ll try not to respond to other threads until I get these written over the next few days. (We’re meeting RobM this afternoon after having to cancel for the typhoon earlier in the week when Hong Kong came to a standstill, so won’t get very far today). Meanwhile, Connie, keep up your discussions with Icaro and add to our threads on soldiers, solitary seclusion, ignorant insects or anything else of interest. Metta, Sarah ======= 24939 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 1:21am Subject: Bahiya2 - *Connie* -intermediate becoming HI Connie & All, I’m using Peter Masefield’s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana commentary (Ud-a), both published by the PTS for these quotes. The on-line sutta can be found at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html As you reminded me, before we discussed a little about intermediate states (antaraabhava) which are often referred to in other Buddhist traditions as ‘bardo’. I quoted from the Abhidhamma text, the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy) in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18195.html In Bk V111,2,”Of an Intermediate State’, the Kathavatthu discusses in detail why the proposition “that there is an intermdiate state of existence” is not valid. I don’t think there is any difference of understanding between us here or elsewhere, Connie, but as it is a common misperception about the Buddha’s teaching, I’m using your comment as an excuse add more detail from the Ud and Ud-a. ***** The Buddha encourages Bahiya to understand the objects experienced through the sense doors and the six classes of consciousness. “ ‘With respect to the seen...merely the seen (di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m)’: with respect to a sight-base (ruupaayatane) (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye-consciousness.” The Buddha is stressing that mere dhammas exist. A little later in the Ud-a we read: “For, in this connection, the sight-base is called ‘the seen’ (di.t.tha.m)in the sense that it is something that is to be beheld, (as is) eye-consciousness, together with the consciousness associated with the doors therefor, in the sense of seeing, both of these, occurring (as they do) in accordance with conditions, being solely and merely dhammas; there is, in this connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done, as a result of which, since (the seen) is impermanent in the sense of being non-existent after having been, dukkha in the sense of being oppressed by way of rise and fall, not-self in the sense of proceeding uncontrolled, whence the opportunity for excitement and so on with respect thereto on the part of one who is wise?...” This is important, because, ideas of intermediate states are often wrapped up in an idea of self or control. The Buddha says a little later in the sutta: “When you, Bahiya, are not therein (tato tva.m Baahiya na tattha), then you, Bahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in both (tato tva.m Baahiya nev’idha na hura.m na ubhayamantarena)- this alone is the end of dukkha.” Ud-a makes it clear that the first few words refer to how having fully understood the deep meaning of the previous words, along with path-fruition, Bahiya ‘will be neither excited with that lust, blemished with that anger, nor deluded with that delusion, then, or alternatively therefore, you [Bahiya] will not be therein, in that seen and so on, you will not be attached, established, either in that seen or in that heard, sensed and cognised, by way of craving, conceit and (wrong) view thinking ‘This is mine, this I am, this is for me the self’.” In otherwords, arahantship and parinibbana at the end of his life, the end of all dukkha. Ud-a continues: “It is, moreover, wrong on the part of those who seek reference to an intermediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) by seizing upon the phrase ubhayamantarena [in both]. For the existence of an intermediate becoming is altogether rejected in the Abhidhamma. ....Furthermore, those who still say that there is an intermediate becoming by seizing unmethodically upon the meaning of such sutta-passages as ‘An antaraaparinibbaayin’ (eg Aiv70ff) and ‘Those who are become or those seeking becoming’(Khp8) are to be rebuffed with ‘there is no (such thing)’, since the meaning of the former sutta passage is that he is an antaraaparinibbaayin since he attains parinibbaana (parinibbaayati) by way of remainderles defilement-parinibbana through attaining the topmost path midway (antaraa)[in lifespan]...., whilst the meaning of the latter (sutta-passage) is that those who, in the former word, are spoken of as ‘those who are become’ (bhuutaa), are those in whom the asavas have been destroyed, being those who are merely become, (but) who will not become (again, (whereas the latter,) being the antithesis thereof, (and spoken of as) ‘those seeking becoming’ (sambhavesino) since it is becoming (sambhava.m) that they seek (esenti), are sekhas and puthujjanas on account of the fetters giving rise to becoming not having been abandoned....” There is a lot more detail, but I’ll leave it here with this last quote given in Ud-a on the same subject: “For when there is a straightforward meaning that follows the (canonical) Pali, what business is there in postulating an intermediate becoming of unspecified capacity?” Any comments welcome. With metta, Sarah ====== 24940 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya1 intro (was peace, Icaro) Dear Sarah: Sarah:"I see you’re well in lock-step with Icaro and have > even learned > ‘Icarish’....good for you and also for sharing your > appreciation of his > posts. He’s shown the world that Abhidhamma study > doesn’t need to be DRY, > ACADEMIC, HEAVY, SUPER-SERIOUS and so on." ------------------------------------------------- Dagodigodagodoo!!! Geez...Thanks Sarah! I take the Abhidhamma´s study at a very fair way. It is very clever at one side: no need to worry about concepts that are showed at a pristine way from Dhammasangani to Patthana! But Comys as the Buddhaghosa´s Visuddhimagga are a hard climb indeed for any reader! I will survive the boot camp and come back to my studies! -------------------------------------------------- He’s also > shown that one can > still listen to music and march along. No need to > become a robotic > encyclopaedia. We’ll all look forward to any > boot-camp diary Patthana > reflections of his;-);-) --------------------------------------------------- Great! The Great Patthana and its Combinatory Analysis of Paccayoti, Kusala and akusala dhammas and so on is mesmerizing me .... someday I will get full dominion of all its stanzas!!! I will take a very clear path at boot camp: since all reality comes from out us by sense-doors, so I will take the firm decision to view all thse interplay of nama and rupa, Citta and cetasika as a direct linking of thoughts - like the Paticca-samuppada, without the twisting an curling of personal opinions and viewpoints: hetu-paccaya combining with akusala sampayutta and rupadhamma and so on. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24941 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] pali fonts and Velthuis Dear Nina, It's wonderful to hear about your success! It's probably the best way given that you have to do it on your Mac. It would have been easier if you had a PC as you might have been able to use Andy Shaw's PaliTrans font conversion utility program. Manually replacing the characters can be a little time-consuming. Can you copy and paste a whole book (eg. Vism Mahatika vol 2) from tipitaka.org? If you can do that and convert each of the funny characters to Velthuis then you can acquire just about any Pali book you need. It looks as though the Vism discussion will reach XIV.32 before I come back online at year's end. But before I go, I could prepare another Vism text file to upload to the DSG files folder. I just need to know whether the group wishes to carry on from XIV.33 or go directly to the last chapter on the benefits of developing understanding (as I had suggested earlier) and then go back and carry on from XIV.33 with the detailed analysis of the aggregates. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Jim, > I must learn to become independent in taking sutta and co from the net. It > is good you will hibernate, otherwise I never will be independent. I tried > the Tipitaka org recommended by Icaro. I do not know the most practical > solution, but I copied a bit for trial, and did the search and replace > command for 2 letters: .m and aa. I could more or less read the text with > the funny signs beforehand and then find out the right letters, and it > worked! > I should make a separate list of all the funny signs and the proper Velthuis > ones I need for replacing them. Is that the quickest? Then consulting my > list I can get to work. > I hope the Tipitaka also has Tika of Visuddhimagga, because meanwhile I may > run out of texts, it depends on the tempo. > Nina. 24942 From: susan macqueen Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 5:12am Subject: Hi, I'm new to this group and thought I would pop in and say hello...........I am new to Buddhism although I have read a bit about it. At the moment I am reading the Four Noble Truths and trying to incorporate these teachings into my daily life. I look forward to learning from the people on this website and listening to everyone's thoughts and hope to be posting soon with my own. Susan 24943 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 6:07am Subject: Welcome and new series Hi Susan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "susan macqueen" wrote: > I'm new to this group and thought I would pop in and say hello...........I am new to Buddhism although I have read a bit about it. At the moment I am reading the Four Noble Truths and trying to incorporate these teachings into my daily life. > > I look forward to learning from the people on this website and listening to everyone's thoughts and hope to be posting soon with my own. Welcome to DSG! Sarah and Jon are the moderators and they live in Hong Kong. I am traveling on business to Hong Kong and have just returned from a delightful three hour dhamma-filled discussion with them in a hotel lobby. One of the topics that we discussed tonight is the number of new members on DSG. Some time ago, I prepared a scripted PowerPoint presentation called "Introduction to the Abhidhamma" (available as a PowerPoint or as a .PDF in the files section of DSG). Sarah and Jon encouraged me to post one slide at a time from this presentation for group discussion every few days. I had started this some time ago and was about half way through when my work required me to take a break from DSG. Given the number of new members, I have decided to start again at the beginning. I apologize to the older members who have already read this material - perhaps it will trigger a new line of discussion. Susan, I hope that you and the other new members will add your comments / questions. Metta, Rob M :-) 24944 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 6:12am Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi All, In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: The question is raised whether the Abhidhamma is essential for Dhamma practice. The answer to this will depend on the individual who undertakes the practice. People vary in their levels of understanding, their temperaments and spiritual development. Ideally, all the different spiritual faculties should be harmonized, but some people are quite contented with devotional practices based on faith, while others are keen on developing penetrative insight. The Abhidhamma is most useful to those who want to understand the Dhamma in greater depth and detail. It aids the development of insight into the three characteristics of existence - impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non-self. It is useful not only for the periods devoted to formal meditation, but also during the rest of the day when we are engaged in various mundane chores. We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 24945 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 7:13am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: > > > We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we > experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge > of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and > explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most > important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, > Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without > a knowledge of Abhidhamma. > > Comments? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi Rob M., I will give you twenty guesses as to what I think of Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda's statements about the Abhidhamma...I bet you will guess right on the first try though! ;-) Metta, James p.s. Can you see the tone of conceit in his writing? I sure can! Maybe we can thank his Abhidhamma studies for that. 24946 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 7:28am Subject: Re: *Jaran* -waiting for feedback;-)(was: meanings of dhamma, no 11.) Dear Sarah: :"> This time, I do need to apologize. I missed it completely. Give me 2 days. Thanks for your summary. I printed it out. Will talk later. (usual) Guilt, :-) jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Jaran & Nina (& Rob Ep), > > --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear Sarah: > > Sorry for lerking. Will try to keep up with dsg more. > ..... > That would be good;-)No need to apologise, but to be honest, I'm not sure > if you stay around long enough to read slow replies to your occasional > posts....;-( For example, you sent a bulletin of a discussion at the > foundation w/ K.Sujin and asked a qu about `sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of > insight)'. > 24947 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 7:28am Subject: Re: touch : To TG Dear TG, Elias, and all How are you? You wrote: "From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the Sutta Pitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading the Suttas before I even realized the depth at which they were speaking. ------ ---- I came to realize that the Suttas are speaking about "real things/states" whereas Mahayana by comparison is generally philosophically oriented. ---- ----- Initially, I also thought Mahayana was more wisdom oriented, but after some serious months of study (now 22 years) I came to understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking about the Sutta Pitaka and not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.)" TG, your above observations are very insightful. More than two decades before in Myanmar, I have had a very bizarre idea - after reading "Systems Of Buddhistic Thoughts" By S. Yamakami. This book wrote about how a later Mahayana sect was better than or more advanced than a previous one. The bizarre idea I had was that I could generate many Mahayana sects by selecting some Suttas from the Pali Sutta Pi.taka. All I needed to do was to interpret some statements in those Suttas in absolute terms or interpret them out of context by basing on personal opinions alone - that is to say, without consulting the elucidations given in the standard commentaries. And I could even give them names after the selected Suttas. It is very easy to do, really. :-) There you have it! With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: Hi Elias First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result of wisdom/insight in Theravadin. It is not something to try to "artificially establish" as it would appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. First develop wisdom, wisdom then overcomes views, attachments, etc., and the mind "turns away" from samsara. Wisdom is always the most important factor in the Sutta Pitaka. Your question is very difficult to understand. Part of that difficulty might be due to the broken English. But most of the difficulty seems to come from mixing science, philosophy, abhidhamma, Mahayana in a disorganized manner. Regarding this question: >>So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch >>would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. >>so how come the touch is possible? 1) Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are conditioned by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is nothing there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., emptiness. Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing things incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, chairs, bodies, etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the mind needs to learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously changing due to the interaction. 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. 3) Nama and rupa are both energies. Nama is energy associated with cognition. Rupa is energy other than that. 4) The Four Great Elements represent the direction and structure of the energy flow. 5) Touch is possible because energies are interacting. They affect each other. From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the SuttaPitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading the Suttas before I even realized the depth at which they were speaking. I came to realize that the Suttas are speaking about "real things/states" whereas Mahayana by comparison is generally philosophically oriented. Initially, I also thought Mahayana was more wisdom oriented, but after some serious months of study (now 22 years) I came to understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking about the Sutta Pitaka and not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.) TG 24948 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi, James (and Rob) - In a message dated 9/4/03 10:14:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > >Hi All, > > > >In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: > > > > > >We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we > >experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge > >of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and > >explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most > >important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, > >Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without > >a knowledge of Abhidhamma. > > > >Comments? > > > >Metta, > >Rob M :-) > > Hi Rob M., > > I will give you twenty guesses as to what I think of Dr. K. Sri > Dhammananda's statements about the Abhidhamma...I bet you will guess > right on the first try though! ;-) > > Metta, James > p.s. Can you see the tone of conceit in his writing? I sure can! > Maybe we can thank his Abhidhamma studies for that. > > > ================================ I think one doesn't have to look far to spot tones of conceit in *each* of us. I think that when we are very, very sure about a matter that we don't truly know first hand - which applies to almost every opinion on almost everything that almost everyone of has - conceit is there. We're all filled with opinions, and we all think we are "right". I'm engaged in that at this very moment! (Of course, there *are* degrees to things.) I happen to think that viewing knowledge of the Abhidhamma Pitaka as essential is a view that goes too far. Specifically, I think the statement " ... the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma" is simply false. This is provable, I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going "too far". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24949 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:05am Subject: Egypt Diary: Accident After school today, I was getting a ride back to my apartment in Makkatom. The driver was winding his way through the normally busy, but flowing streets, when we suddenly came to a traffic jam. It was difficult to see ahead as to what was causing the jam but eventually we inched to a spot where we could see a significant accident. A small car was severely damaged on both sides, resting on only two wheels, stuck to the front of a large cargo truck. The truck had obviously smashed into this small car which had then smashed into other cars. Now it hung off of the front of the truck by only a bit of metal, like an elephant had pierced its metal skin with a single tusk and kept it hanging there. My driver, and Egyptian named Gamal who is a driver for the school (not a taxi driver), asked me excitedly if I would like to go see the accident. I was a little surprised, not having done such a thing before, but I could tell that he really wanted to go look and that it was culturally acceptable. He parked the car quickly on the side of the road and we went to look. There was a crowd of people swarming around where the accident occurred. The first thing I saw was a little girl, sitting up on the edge of a parked car, who was badly scraped and several men were putting water on her cuts to clean the wounds. There were several bottles of water sitting around her that people had gladly donated, much more than needed. The little girl was very scared and several men were shouting and all trying to help her at once…something that would frighten anyone. The mother was badly shaken, talking on a cell phone, while throngs of people were all shouting and surrounding her. Everyone was looking and acting upset, crawling around in every direction like a swarm of ants that had been disturbed. One might think that they each had personally experienced the accident. An Egyptian young man came up to me and starting speaking Arabic in a rushed manner, probably asking me what happened; when I gave the signal that I didn't understand what he was saying, he quickly went to another person to ask what happened. I am sure that this man was not involved at all, but he as taking it all very personally. The accident had occurred some fifteen minutes before we arrived; we were there for maybe five or ten minutes, and still there was no sign of police or ambulance. I asked Gamal about this and he told me that police will come maybe half an hour to an hour after an accident is reported. The experience reminded me of the photos and live video footage I have seen in Middle Eastern locations where there are crowds of people protesting something or mourning the death of a suicide bomber or victim of an Israeli attack, etc. I always wondered what it would be like to be in a crowd like that. Now I know. In the hysteria I wasn't as much a foreigner as just one of the mass. It was a surreal experience. I reflect on this incident as a reminder of how tragedy and suffering help to define a culture. People are people, but many of the differences in cultures develop due to differences in meeting the sufferings inherent to life; or at least I think so. 24950 From: Elias Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:09am Subject: Re: touch : To TG hello all, if i'm going to be honest, the suttas are great, yes, but i also find them to be just plain text. books, books, books, to many, to many. what if we could do it this way, practice, practice, practice, experience, experience. now we will get major results! /elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear TG, Elias, and all > > How are you? > > You wrote: > > "From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the > Sutta Pitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading > the Suttas before I even realized the depth at which they were > speaking. ------ > > ---- I came to realize that the Suttas are speaking about "real > things/states" whereas Mahayana by comparison is generally > philosophically oriented. ---- > > ----- Initially, I also thought Mahayana was more wisdom oriented, > but after some serious months of study (now 22 years) I came to > understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana > schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking about the > Sutta Pitaka and not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.)" > > TG, your above observations are very insightful. > > More than two decades before in Myanmar, I have had a very bizarre > idea - after reading "Systems Of Buddhistic Thoughts" By S. Yamakami. > This book wrote about how a later Mahayana sect was better than or > more advanced than a previous one. > > The bizarre idea I had was that I could generate many Mahayana sects > by selecting some Suttas from the Pali Sutta Pi.taka. All I needed to > do was to interpret some statements in those Suttas in absolute terms > or interpret them out of context by basing on personal opinions > alone - that is to say, without consulting the elucidations given in > the standard commentaries. And I could even give them names after the > selected Suttas. It is very easy to do, really. :-) > > There you have it! > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Elias > > First of all, "mental stillness" is the end result of wisdom/insight > in > Theravadin. It is not something to try to "artificially establish" as > it would > appear to be in some practices like Zen for example. First develop > wisdom, > wisdom then overcomes views, attachments, etc., and the mind "turns > away" from > samsara. Wisdom is always the most important factor in the Sutta > Pitaka. > > Your question is very difficult to understand. Part of that > difficulty might > be due to the broken English. But most of the difficulty seems to > come from > mixing science, philosophy, abhidhamma, Mahayana in a disorganized > manner. > > Regarding this question: > >>So my question is, when we touch, (ex with our hands) what we touch > >>would be many many objects, but in theirself it would be emptiness. > >>so how come the touch is possible? > > 1) Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are > conditioned > by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is > nothing > there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., > emptiness. > Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing > things > incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, > chairs, > bodies, > etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the > mind needs to > learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously > changing > due to the interaction. > > 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. > > 3) Nama and rupa are both energies. Nama is energy associated with > cognition. Rupa is energy other than that. > > 4) The Four Great Elements represent the direction and structure of > the > energy flow. > > 5) Touch is possible because energies are interacting. They affect > each > other. > > From someone who had studied Mahayana for years before studying the > SuttaPitaka, I can tell you that it took several months of reading > the Suttas before I even realized the depth at which they were > speaking. > > I came to realize that the Suttas are speaking about "real > things/states" whereas Mahayana by comparison is generally > philosophically oriented. > > Initially, I also thought Mahayana was more wisdom oriented, but > after some serious months of study (now 22 years) I came to > understand, that in terms of wisdom, the Suttas blow Mahayana > schools "out of the water." (Notice that I am speaking about the > Sutta Pitaka and not a "school/sect" of Buddhism.) > > TG 24951 From: Elias Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:13am Subject: susan, welcome very welcome. the first noble truth has to be understood, and the second noble truth has to be abandoned. /elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "susan macqueen" wrote: > Hi, > > I'm new to this group and thought I would pop in and say hello...........I am new to Buddhism although I have read a bit about it. At the moment I am reading the Four Noble Truths and trying to incorporate these teachings into my daily life. > > I look forward to learning from the people on this website and listening to everyone's thoughts and hope to be posting soon with my own. > > Susan > > > > 24952 From: Elias Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:33am Subject: Re: Welcome and new series hello rob, in the powerpoint presentation (abhidhamma), why do you have the text 'purify the mind' related to the heart organ?? /elias rob wrote to susan: > Welcome to DSG! > > Sarah and Jon are the moderators and they live in Hong Kong. I am > traveling on business to Hong Kong and have just returned from a > delightful three hour dhamma-filled discussion with them in a hotel > lobby. One of the topics that we discussed tonight is the number of > new members on DSG. > > Some time ago, I prepared a scripted PowerPoint presentation > called "Introduction to the Abhidhamma" (available as a PowerPoint > or as a .PDF in the files section of DSG). Sarah and Jon encouraged > me to post one slide at a time from this presentation for group > discussion every few days. I had started this some time ago and was > about half way through when my work required me to take a break from > DSG. > > Given the number of new members, I have decided to start again at > the beginning. I apologize to the older members who have already > read this material - perhaps it will trigger a new line of > discussion. > > Susan, I hope that you and the other new members will add your > comments / questions. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24953 From: susan macqueen Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] (unknown) Elias........thank you for your warm welcome. At the moment I am reading Buddhism - plain and simple to give me an overall idea of the teachings, I'm very much enjoying the book and can resonate with quite a lot of what this author is saying. After I have read this book I will be reading Four Noble Truths that was written by Venerable Ajahn Sumedho and I will keep in mind what you said in your email. Thank you Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elias" To: Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 4:13 PM Subject: [dsg] (unknown) > susan, > > welcome very welcome. > > the first noble truth has to be understood, > and the second noble truth has to be abandoned. > > /elias > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "susan macqueen" > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I'm new to this group and thought I would pop in and say > hello...........I am new to Buddhism although I have read a bit about > it. At the moment I am reading the Four Noble Truths and trying to > incorporate these teachings into my daily life. > > > > I look forward to learning from the people on this website and > listening to everyone's thoughts and hope to be posting soon with my > own. > > > > Susan 24954 From: susan macqueen Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcome and new series Rob, Thank you also for your warm welcome. When I have more understanding in what I am reading I am sure my questioning mind will get to work. In the literature I have read so far which is minimal as I am just beginning, I actually have not come across the word Abhidhamma, however I will be looking out for the files you mentioned in your email. Thanks Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:07 PM Subject: [dsg] Welcome and new series > Hi Susan, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "susan macqueen" > wrote: > > I'm new to this group and thought I would pop in and say > hello...........I am new to Buddhism although I have read a bit > about it. At the moment I am reading the Four Noble Truths and > trying to incorporate these teachings into my daily life. > > > > I look forward to learning from the people on this website and > listening to everyone's thoughts and hope to be posting soon with my > own. > > Welcome to DSG! > > Sarah and Jon are the moderators and they live in Hong Kong. I am > traveling on business to Hong Kong and have just returned from a > delightful three hour dhamma-filled discussion with them in a hotel > lobby. One of the topics that we discussed tonight is the number of > new members on DSG. > > Some time ago, I prepared a scripted PowerPoint presentation > called "Introduction to the Abhidhamma" (available as a PowerPoint > or as a .PDF in the files section of DSG). Sarah and Jon encouraged > me to post one slide at a time from this presentation for group > discussion every few days. I had started this some time ago and was > about half way through when my work required me to take a break from > DSG. > > Given the number of new members, I have decided to start again at > the beginning. I apologize to the older members who have already > read this material - perhaps it will trigger a new line of > discussion. > > Susan, I hope that you and the other new members will add your > comments / questions. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24955 From: Elias Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:12am Subject: the flowing river All, I'm writing this in `Word' using an automatic correction spelling. I'm not good to write English (even worse on speaking it)… but I can read, this means I can read all he fantastic texts about the dhamma. So this time I would want to write a little about the `world today'. I will simply try to describe how the `manussa' (human beings) have made the society and environment out from desire, And is daily interacted with desire and ignorance, and will therefore be reborn and not complaining. The major problem of all manussa is it cannot understand the first noble truth, therefore the second noble truth cannot be understood, the third one is a laugh, and the four is nonsense. It's the ironic of life, desire is not suffering, it's the cause of suffering, it's a major difference. If desire were suffering we wouldn't ex. crave for material pleasure, would we? If we investigate on the society of the -modern world- it seems its born and is alive because desire, television, media, music, all of these products are bought because desire. We want them so strongly we are willing to get reborn to enjoy them again. This is the major misunderstanding, if the first noble truth cannot be understood there seems nothing wrong to get reborn. I often use the simile of the buoyant river, As we all were uncontrolled and just flowing in a circular river, just flowing there, around and around in the river. Suddenly on stands up in the river `what's going on? Why am I in this river? What is this river? … where am I?". It's common people that thes who do stand up falls in again and going for another billions of rides. But some, never rides the river again. /Elias 24956 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: touch : To TG Hi, Elias - In a message dated 9/4/03 11:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, crystalmelodyhaven@y... writes: > hello all, > if i'm going to be honest, the suttas are great, yes, > but i also find them to be just plain text. > > books, books, books, to many, to many. > what if we could do it this way, > practice, practice, practice, experience, experience. > > now we will get major results! > /elias > > ======================= Had you never seen any books on the Dhamma nor learned Dhamma from someone whose knowledge utimately originated in the record of the Buddha's teachings, and, assuming that you are not, yourself, a paccekabodhisatta or bodhisatta, exactly what would you practice? It is certainly true that one will not get filled by reading the menu, but without a menu, there is no way to know what to order! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24957 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: emptiness. Dear T.G. Yes, su~n~natta is used in the suttas as empty of the self, anatta. Completely in accordance with the Tipitaka and comy. You explain this very well. Only the word energy: here science may cause confusion. A different angle. Nina. op 03-09-2003 23:26 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are conditioned > by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is nothing > there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., emptiness. > Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing things > incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, chairs, > bodies, > etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the mind needs > to > learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously changing > due to the interaction. > > 2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. 24958 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg, dhammas for investigation. Dear Elias, op 03-09-2003 19:59 schreef Elias op crystalmelodyhaven@y...: > > the four elements is just a > way of desribing but not fully investigate. N: This is completely Theravada tradition: based on the Tipitaka and the ancient commentaries. There are four paramattha dhammas: citta cetasika rupa nibbana. Citta, cetasika (mental factors accompanying citta) and rupa are conditioned dhammas: they arise and fall away. Their characteristics are described in the teachings. They have characteristics which cannot be altered. Heat, a rupa element, is always heat, this characteristic cannot be altered. It can be directly experienced when it appears. It appears through the bodysense. Heat is rupa, it does not know anything. Bodysense is rupa it does not know anything. They can be conditions for citta which experiences. It is panna which can fully investigate the characteristics of realities, but this is a gradual development. Then we can learn that realities, dhammas, are not abstract notions. The aim is not stillness, but understanding which can eradicate wrong view and all defilements. When you speak about wood, atoms, these are different notions of science, they are a subject altogether different from paramattha dhammas. Thus, when you say, , yes, they are described so that we can ponder over them, consider them and investigate them in our daily lives. It is a new subject to you, and thus, what you read here may seem confusing to you. Keep on asking, Nina. 24959 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsgn, rupa Dear Icaro, Remember, rupa is avyaakata!!! Avyaakata is neither kusala nor akusala. Rupa cannot do good or bad deeds, it is not mental. It has no intention. It does not know anything, it could not be a component of citta. They are separate dhammas. Dsgn fourth book, in English the no. are different. What is the Pali name of the section and text? Rupa is always rupa, no matter it is cognized by citta or not. Visible object is seen by citta, and then it does not change into a mental reality. It does not know that it is seen, it has no like or dislike. When you speak of a mental image of what is seen, it is not the rupa which is visible object, but it is an idea formed on account of (conditioned by) the visible object which was seen before. Rupa is not vitakka, which is a cetasika. Larry just brought up from the Vis.: naamaruupavavatthaana: defining of nama and rupa, first stage of insight. Panna has to know that they have different characteristics and are quite distinct from each other. If we do not see this intellectually first, it is an impediment to insight. op 03-09-2003 20:22 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: About this question about Rupa and four elements, I > could humbly add that the Dhammasangani explains Rupa > as a COMPLETE Dhamma by itself (last stanza of the > Dsg fourth book) - so you can?t deny it as a profound > component of mind: citta. > The four elements sound as a shallow description fo > reality...but consider them as Kusala dhammas or > Vittakas due to good Kamma accumulations 24960 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg, dhammas for investigation. Hi, Nina - You wrote to Elias: > The aim is not stillness, but > understanding which can eradicate wrong view and all defilements. > =========================== Just one comment, which I *think* may be more in the way of a clarification than a disagreement: If by "stillness" you mean calm in the sense of samatha, I agree - it is a useful means, an important contributing factor, but not the ultimate aim. But there is, as I see it, another sense in which the ultimate aim *is* stillness, namely that total disinclination towards being disturbed, that complete absence of dukkha, which is nibbana, wherein there is neither coming nor going, neither arising nor ceasing - complete nonproliferation ... absolute peace. And insight-understanding is the direct portal to this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24961 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dsgn, rupa Dear Nina: Nina:" Dear Icaro, > Remember, rupa is avyaakata!!! > Avyaakata is neither kusala nor akusala. Rupa cannot > do good or bad deeds, > it is not mental. It has no intention. It does not > know anything, it could > not be a component of citta. They are separate > dhammas. > Dsgn fourth book, in English the no. are different. > What is the Pali name of > the section and text?" ---------------------------------------------------- Dhammasangani, fourth book - Atthakathakhandam, last stanka: "1616. Katame dhamma arana? Cattusu bhumisu kusalam, cattusu bhumisu vipako, tisu bhumisu kiriyabyakatam, RUPAÑCA, nibbanañca– ime dhamma arana." I´ve translated Dhamma Aranaa as "Complete and Full Dhamma", but could it be also "Object of Dhamma"? Rupañca is dhamma aranaa. Corrections are welcome indeed! Mettaya, Ícaro ------------------------------------------------------- > Rupa is always rupa, no matter it is cognized by > citta or not. Visible > object is seen by citta, and then it does not change > into a mental reality. > It does not know that it is seen, it has no like or > dislike. When you speak > of a mental image of what is seen, it is not the > rupa which is visible > object, but it is an idea formed on account of > (conditioned by) the visible > object which was seen before. Rupa is not vitakka, > which is a cetasika. (snip) ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24962 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: emptiness. Hi Nina The way I see "energy" is primarily through the cause and effect Dependent Origination model:-- "This being, that is; with the arising of this, that arises, etc. That combined with observation of experiences and surroundings... and yes some of the science background I have as well. I use these things and test them in my mind to see if they "work" in reality. Experiences are real things, but the models that may help explain those experiences are just models. Whether its a scientific model or abhidhamma model of 17 consciousness processes, these are just models. If someone penetrates them with absolute direct knowledge, that's another matter. But to the rest of us they're models. The more a model can assist in overcoming suffering, the more valuable it is. From a Buddhist point of view, the models all have to be overcome. They help show us the futility of grasping after "energies" that are continually altering, afflicting, not self...including the energies associated with the models. So it doesn't matter to me whether its science, abhidhamma, sutta, mahayana, or whatever. Its just matters that model works. To me, the best model is the Sutta Pitaka. But to make it work, I have to make it work in my mind, and I have to make it make sense in the world I know. If the Buddha was teaching today, I suspect his teaching would have more analogies to science and less to carts, stray cows, etc. ;) Anyway, I'm sure you know all these things but I wanted to show you the way I approach it. Thanks. TG In a message dated 9/4/2003 10:13:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear T.G. > Yes, su~n~natta is used in the suttas as empty of the self, anatta. > Completely in accordance with the Tipitaka and comy. You explain this very > well. > Only the word energy: here science may cause confusion. A different angle. > Nina. > op 03-09-2003 23:26 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > >Emptiness means that -- things have no-self because they are conditioned > >by other things. It has nothing to do with meaning that there is nothing > >there. Things are very real, but they are empty of self, i.e., emptiness. > >Therefore, when the mind views things as "with self" it is viewing things > >incorrectly. That's why, instead of seeing things as desks, trees, chairs, > >bodies, > >etc., which imbues things as self existing "object-entities," the mind > needs > >to > >learn to see things as elements that are interacting and continuously > changing > >due to the interaction. > > > >2) The hand and whatever is touched are both energies. > 24963 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:18pm Subject: Re: touch Hi Elias, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > anatta seems to be the important parts in these answers, I view all three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) as being equally important. It is said that completely understanding one of these three will allow one to understand the other two. I would say that anatta is the toughest of the three to approach; probably because, at first, it seems to be counter-intuitive. > anatta means no-self, but go the other direction to no-self, > that would be many-self, infinite-selfs. and this cannot be, > because an object can't exist by itself, if it's not builded by other > objects, the main object cannot exist. So as you mentioned "wife". > that would be human, a human form is builded up with organs, blood, > hair etc. and these parts (blood, hair etc.) is builded up by cells, > atoms etc. and these parts (atoms, cells) have to be builded up by > other objects, smaller objects, or else they couldn't exist. > > ok, so it's anatta, no-self. now let's se how the object do exist, > if it cannot be a 'self'. in that wa it has to be builded up by other > objects, and they to is not a 'self'. > > you mentioned atoms etc, these things cannot just exist by nothing, > they have to be builded up by minor objects to exist. > > as for the four elements, it is a good way to describe things, > but what is the elements builded of? According to the Abhidhamma, the ultimate elements of reality (paramattha dhammas) are: - Cita (consciousness): 89 or 121 types, depending on how you count - Cetasika (mental factors): 52 types - Rupa (matter): 28 types - Nibbana (an object of consciousness) Citta, cetasika and rupa exist only for a moment. Cetasikas arise together with and fall away with their associated citta. The falling away of a citta is one of the conditions for the arising of the next citta; cittas appear sequentially. Elias, you seem interested in rupa. Frankly, the Buddha did not put much focus on analyzing rupa. When rupa is mentioned in the Suttas, it is almost always as an input to the senses or as a base supporting the mind. The commentaries analyze rupa further, but the focus does not stray far from the purpose of the Buddha's teachings. There are four things that can condition the arising of rupa: - Kamma - Citta - Temperature - Nutrition Elias, if you would like to study this subject further, I suggest that you download Nina's book, Rupas, from the eBooks section of: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Alternatively, you could download my Class Notes (I teach beginners' Abhidhamma) from the files section of DSG and review pages 155-166 (a summary of Nina's book). Metta, Rob M :-) 24964 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: > > > > > > We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we > > experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge > > of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and > > explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most > > important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, > > Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without > > a knowledge of Abhidhamma. > > > > Comments? > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > Hi Rob M., > > I will give you twenty guesses as to what I think of Dr. K. Sri > Dhammananda's statements about the Abhidhamma...I bet you will guess > right on the first try though! ;-) > > Metta, James > p.s. Can you see the tone of conceit in his writing? I sure can! > Maybe we can thank his Abhidhamma studies for that. Dr. K. Sri. Dhammananda is the Chief Theravada monk for Malaysia / Singapore. I meet with him frequently and from my experience, he is a very humble monk. Though Chief Reverend clearly respects the Abhidhamma, he never references it during his Dhamma Talks. His talks are very down to earth. Nevertheless, I see you point of view, James. If this were the only contact one had with Chief Reverend, I could understand how one could come away with an impression of conceit. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: It seems as though you are enjoying your time in Egypt. I appreciated your recent write-up on witnessing the accident. I travel every week, yet never tire of observing the subtle nuances of different cultures. It is fascinating. 24965 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > >We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we > > >experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge > > >of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and > > >explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most > > >important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, > > >Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without > > >a knowledge of Abhidhamma. > I happen to think that viewing knowledge of the Abhidhamma Pitaka as > essential is a view that goes too far. Specifically, I think the statement " > ... the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as > Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood > without a knowledge of Abhidhamma" is simply false. This is provable, I > believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who achieved stream entry > by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing instructions. He was surely not versed > in Abhidhamma. But to write off the Abhidhamma and the commentaries > completely, and especially to do so without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also > be considered as going "too far". I agree with you that one does not need to study Abhidhamma to achieve enlightenment. I would paraphrase what Chief Reverend wrote as, "If you want to teach the Dhamma and truly understand the technical terms of Dhamma, kamma, etc., then you need to understand Abhidhamma." With this interpretation of what he wrote, I agree with him. Metta, Rob M :-) 24966 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:54pm Subject: Re: Welcome and new series Hi Elias, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > hello rob, > in the powerpoint presentation (abhidhamma), > why do you have the text > 'purify the mind' related to the heart organ?? > /elias Excellent question! The bottom part of this diagram (legs and lower body) showed the foundation while the middle part (arms and upper body) shows the practice. The three aspects of the practice are: - Dana (generosity) - Sila (self-discipline) - Bhavana (meditation) On the diagram, I put Dana as the right arm because, in Asia, people give things with their right hands. I put Sila as the left hand because when we meditate, we place the left hand (normally the weaker hand) over the right hand (normally the stronger hand). I put Bhavana in the centre, over the heart, as it is a purely internal activity. I also put Bhavana in the centre as I feel it is the heart of the practice. I then took a very commonly repeated verse from the Dhammapada, "Avoid Evil, Do Good, Purify the Mind, This is the teaching of the Buddhas." and drew a parallel to the three aspects of the practice: - Avoid Evil --> Sila - Do Good --> Dana - Purify the Mind --> Bhavana This is why the text "purfify the mind" appears over the symbol of the heart. In addition, the physical support for the mind in Abhidhamma is called the "heart-base" (not the brain). I recently posted some details on the heart-base in message 24898. Hope this clarifies. Metta, Rob M :-) 24967 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcome and new series Hi Susan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "susan macqueen" wrote: > Thank you also for your warm welcome. When I have more understanding in > what I am reading I am sure my questioning mind will get to work. In the > literature I have read so far which is minimal as I am just beginning, I > actually have not come across the word Abhidhamma, however I will be looking > out for the files you mentioned in your email. My advice is to wait a bit before tackling the Abhidhamma. Perhaps the best introductory book that I have found is Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life". You can download it from the eBooks section of: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Metta, Rob M :-) 24968 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 4:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The physical bases. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M, > Thank you for your post. Very appropriate that you quoted the Singsapa > suttaJust a remark about the eyebase. > op 02-09-2003 23:56 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > Consider the eye-consciousness citta. This citta and the associated > > cetasikas (contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, > > life faculty and attention) have the eye-base as physical support. > > Do we interpret this literally and say that there is a point in the > > eye which supports consciousness and the associated mental factors? > > Does it make sense to identify this with a specific part of the > > biological eye? I don't think that we can take this too literally. > N: That point in the eye is extremely tiny, but it is rupa. This is > explained by the Dhammasangani, the Patthana, the Co to the Dsg, > Atthasalini. I think we should not deny this. See Expositor II, p. 403: the > eye of the flesh is towfold: the compound organ and the sentient organ. The > sentient organ (eyesense) is situated in and bound to it. than the head of a louse>. > It makes sense to me that rupa supports nama. We can also read this in the > Patthana. It is very clear. Eyebase is a condition different from earbase. > Where else would these rupas be but somewhere in the eye or the ear? Of > course we cannot touch them or see them, and they fall away immediately > after they have arisen. Kamma keeps on producing them throughout life. > Nina. > P.S. Were you in Hong Kong and how were your discussions with Sarah and Jon? Thanks for the correction. I know that the eye-base is rupa. I was trying to stress that we should not try and draw a one to one parallel between eye-base and a biological component of the eye such as retina, optic nerve, etc.. My point is that the eye-base rupa is the base for a consciousness which includes mental factors of contact, feeling, perception, volition, concentration, life-faculty and attention. The biologist does not associate this consciousness and these mental factors as arising at the back of the eye. PS: Had three delightful dhamma-filled hours (plus some idle chatter) with Sarah and Jon last night. Metta, Rob M :-) 24969 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] pali fonts and Velthuis Jim: "I just need to know whether the group wishes to carry on from XIV.33 or go directly to the last chapter on the benefits of developing understanding (as I had suggested earlier) and then go back and carry on from XIV.33 with the detailed analysis of the aggregates." Hi Jim, I vote for keeping the order and not jumping ahead. Larry 24970 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/4/03 6:39:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > I agree with you that one does not need to study Abhidhamma to > achieve enlightenment. I would paraphrase what Chief Reverend wrote > as, "If you want to teach the Dhamma and truly understand the > technical terms of Dhamma, kamma, etc., then you need to understand > Abhidhamma." With this interpretation of what he wrote, I agree with > him. > ========================= I would agree with that for the most part. However, if one is a high ariyan or if one has studied the sutta pitaka to the extent of having culled from it the mass of material that is laid out in Abhidhamma (which would be one heck of a study of the suttas!), then one still could be a superb Dhamma teacher. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24971 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 11 the Khandhas Dear Larry and Elias, Thank you Larry, very useful to have all the material here. Elias, this is a lot to digest, but if you take it part by part very slowly, I think it can be very useful to you. Nina. P.s. Larry, I notice that in The Vis there is, in the next paras, reference to the Vibhanga too, and you may not have the Vibhanga, Book of Analysis? Then I shall help, adding a note. op 04-09-2003 08:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Here is part of Nyanatiloka's definition of "khandha": > > "Whatever there exists of corporeal things, whether past, present or > future, 24972 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] books Dear Sarah, op 04-09-2003 06:49 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Nina, you mentioned ordering B.Bodhi translations from Sri Lanka. So many > of our orders have gone astray. When possible, we order now from Pariyatti > which is very fast and efficient. You just need to give a credit card no., > I think. You don’t need to live in the States. N: This is a dangerous thing to do. The PTS just needs the last numbers of the whole which is safer. But best of all, When I am in Bgk. going to the Mahamakut Bookshop. Sri Lanka is too complicated for us to order from, both ordering and paying. Nina. 24973 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Pali. Dear James, Thanks for your lively description. But it was nice many people tried to help the girl. On our Pali list there was a new member, a professor at the American University in Cairo, doing Buddhist studies. I thought of you, but second thoughts arose: guess what, he is a Pali scholar, doing a study of twelfth century Pali text. So I did not keep his address for you. Or you may end up learning Pali in Egypt!!! I have to laugh, because you always find to say a little something about Pali. Nina. op 04-09-2003 17:05 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I reflect on this incident as a reminder of how tragedy and suffering > help to define a culture. People are people, but many of the > differences in cultures develop due to differences in meeting the > sufferings inherent to life; or at least I think so. 24974 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] pali fonts and Velthuis Dear Jim, Thank you for offering to help. I shall just see what Larry wants to do. It ios not bad to copy. I make a separate doc with all the Velthuis letters and their equivalent funny signs, to keep. Then I just copy and paste this in any text, with replace all. Gradually I shall build up my own list of signs. I copied now the Rahuovaadasutta, and shall use this one together with my hard copy. I would not copy a whole book at a time, because the memory may collapse. Only parts and then save on diskette. With appreciation for all the help you have given, Nina. op 04-09-2003 14:27 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > > It's wonderful to hear about your success! It's probably the best way > given that you have to do it on your Mac. .. Can you copy and paste a whole book (eg. > Vism Mahatika vol 2) from tipitaka.org? 24975 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Hi Howard, I am really glad about this! But in this thread you will read the Visuddhimagga gradually, and digest it. It can come naturally. Nina. op 04-09-2003 07:50 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > It seems to me that the Vism needs a far more fair reading than I have > given it!! 24976 From: Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Howard: "It seems to me that sa~n~na has a unifying, unit-making function, which is why it plays a crucial role in our tendency towards reification." Hi Howard, It occurred to me that a better translation for sa~n~na might be imagination, primarily in the sense of image making for the purpose of identification and understanding on a simple level. An image, aka sign (nimitta), is abstract and assumed to be unchanging, in other words a concept. As a basis of identity an image is the source of belief in the concept of self; although that belief (di.t.thi) goes beyond the phenomenon of the image. Hence there is a slight difference between identity (sa~n~na) and belief (di.t.thi) in an identity. I don't know where "unit-making" comes from but one could argue that a unit, or compact whole, is what an image is. For example, we can look at a table and look at a chair and see them as two; or we could look at a table and chair and see unity. Is that a matter of image making? One comment about the commentary below: notice that interdependence is not negated. Larry Vism. XXI, n.4: "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial states have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm. 824). 24977 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:43pm Subject: Bahiya3 - *KIO* - wrong idea of self Dear Kio, I hope you’re still looking in on the posts here. You gave some helpful comments to posts of Nina’s and referred to the Bahiya sutta. I’d like to pursue this a little further.I apologise for the delay. I’ll just repeat a short part of your discussion here: ***** >Nina: Therefore, it is our task to detect it when it appears. Very difficult, but it needs panna to be able to detect this. >Kio: Why do you convince yourself that this is 'very difficult'? Again, you carry more burden everytime you convince yourself that this is very difficult. I do not see any use of doing that at all. >Nina: As to a sense of detachment: the first aim is understanding, even attachment. >Kio: Hope you are not studying to understand this. Again, this is the point of practice. As found in the case of Bahiya, there is no magic to it (for those who 'understand.'). It is just that discursive thoughts may get into the way. Adding more thoughts to this discursive thought is not what was explained by the Buddha to Bahir.< **** You also suggested: “we are here for investigation and practice of dhamma for our path, as you mentioned, we should all chip in ideas, and that is what I am trying here. If things get clarified, I believe that would be everyone's benefit.” With this in mind, let me suggest that while I agree that ‘in the case of Bahiya, there is no magic..’, I think we read over and over again about how very difficult and profound the teachings are and how they are only for the wise to fully comprehend. We read in th Bahiya sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html that Bahiya became fully enlightened (an arahant) after hearing a few sentences from the Buddha on the nature of realities. His wisdom was such that it penetrated the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta and we may think that this is a relatively simple matter. In the commentary to this sutta (Ud-a), we read in fact about how Bahiya had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious deeds. He had ‘gone forth’ under Buddha Kassapa and had lives in deva realms with ‘morality completely fulfilled’. In fact he had spent one entire Buddha sasana in the devaloka. Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him respect. It took a visit by Grat Brahma, a former deva companion and an anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses. Great Brahma tells him: “You now, though being no arahant, roam about wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant. You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to views.” Hence, we see how even for those who have heard the Dhamma from Buddhas, have had kalpas of rebirths as devas with wise companions, and have attained all jhanas, they can still succomb badly to wrong views about self if they haven’t reached the first stage of enlightenment. We read in the Ud-a about how the conceit of arahantship arose in him because of being used to ‘wanting little, contentment and effacement’ for a long time and misjudging these states or because of having attained jhanas and therefore not experiencing defilements ‘as a result of abandoning in the form of suppression’. In other words, wrong views about attainments as a result of not experiencing defilements for a long time can be very dangerous. Urged by Great Brahma, he went to see the Buddha. As we read in the sutta, it was only on a third occasion that the Buddha agreed to teach him the Dhamma. In the Ud-a, we read that he was rejected twice because the Buddha knew “the thrill of that joy is too powerful - even if he hears Dhamma he will not, as yet, be able to pierce it. So let him wait until balance and equanimity reasert themselves.” In order for Bahiya to be able to hear and fully comprehend the teachings from the Buddha, so many different conditions had to be in place, including the final meeting and listening to the Buddha himself. The Buddha fully comprehended these conditions and knew the time was ripe for Bahiya and so entered Savatthi in order that Bahiya would find him. I agree with your comment, Kio, that there is no magic. However, I also agree with Nina’s comment that it is very difficult for panna to see the more subtle shades of clinging to an idea of self as Bahiya eventually realised. Look forward to any further comments. Metta, Sarah ====== S: > I’m using Peter Masefield’s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana > commentary (Ud-a), both published by the PTS for these quotes. The > on-line sutta can be found at: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html 24978 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 10:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: Pali. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > Thanks for your lively description. But it was nice many people tried to > help the girl. James: Actually, it wasn't that nice really. So many men trying to help that little girl terrorized her. Especially in this culture, men are supposed to keep their distance from women/girls. These men were so whipped up into a frenzy that they forgot protocol. I knew better to keep my distance. > On our Pali list there was a new member, a professor at the American > University in Cairo, doing Buddhist studies. I thought of you, but second > thoughts arose: guess what, he is a Pali scholar, doing a study of twelfth > century Pali text. So I did not keep his address for you. Or you may end up > learning Pali in Egypt!!! James: I don't think you would have to worry about that. Nina, I have nothing against people doing Buddhist studies or being Pali scholars. I just consider the use of Pali, in a non-Pali setting, pretentious. > I have to laugh, because you always find to say a little something about > Pali. James: Oops...I did it again! ;-) > Nina. Metta, James 24979 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 4, 2003 11:20pm Subject: Bahiya4 - *Nina&Larry* - asavas Dear Nina & Larry, The description of the asavas (intoxicants/cankers) given here is found elsewhere, but I like this translation and find the frequent reminders about the similarity of clinging to sense-desires and liquor to be very helpful. In the sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.htm We read that when Bahiya listened to the Buddha, he was ‘immediately liberated from the asavas’. Ud-a (the commentary) adds: “ ‘from the asavas (aasavehi), from the lusts for sense-desires and so on that have acquired the name ‘asavas’ on account of its being upto (aa) the summit of becoming (as to space or) upto (aa) change of lineage (as to mental states) that there is their flowing (savana), their proceeding, and on account of their similarity to spirituous liquor (aasava), such as (that made from) madira (fruit) and so on in the sense that they are of long fermentation. For it is whilst he [Bahira] still was hearing Dhamma from the Teacher that he cleansed the precepts, established vipassana based upon the concentration of mind thereby acquired, immediately brought all the asavas to destruction on account of his rapid superknowledge, and reached arahantship together with the discriminations.” In a post yesterday I also added this quote which I think helps us to appreciate the conditioned nature of phenomena and the importance of the development of detachment and comprehension of the non-controllability of these for the wise” >Ud-a we read: “For, in this connection, the sight-base is called ‘the seen’ (di.t.tha.m)in the sense that it is something that is to be beheld,(as is) eye-consciousness, together with the consciousness associated with the doors therefor, in the sense of seeing, both of these, occurring (as they do) in accordance with conditions, being solely and merely dhammas; there is, in this connection, neither a doer nor one who causes things to be done, as a result of which, since (the seen) is impermanent in the sense of being non-existent after having been, dukkha in the sense of being oppressed by way of rise and fall, not-self in the sense of proceeding uncontrolled, whence the opportunity for excitement and so on with respect thereto on the part of one who is wise?...”< Metta, Sarah ====== S: > I’m using Peter Masefield’s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana > commentary (Ud-a), both published by the PTS for these quotes. The > on-line sutta can be found at: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html 24980 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 0:02am Subject: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi Howard & Christine, >H: I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going "too far".< .... You did mention this before and I’d be interested in a reference if you or someone else comes across it. It also half rings a bell to me. I’m also thinking again of Christine’s question about intelligence and insight. Accumulations or habitual tendencies are so very complicated and so often the picture we get is a very limited one. Taking the case of Bahiya, we read about the seemingly simple life of a man dressed in lower garments made from bark and hiding in the forest. We read that he was well-respected and provided for, but convinced erroneously that he was an arahant until the visit of the Brahma. Without knowing the details in the commentary about how he had been a trader and ship-wrecked in that life or about the details of his previous lives in deva realms and meeting former Buddhas, one might easily have the idea that he was simple-minded in someway. His story is also an example of how easily we can mistrue the outer appearances. He refused offers of clothes and continued to live in seclusion (pa.tisalliinassa) because he wished to continue receiving ‘gains and respect’ on account of being perceived to be very worthy and to lead a faultless life by the local people. He became more and more self-deluded as a result. Yet, as we read later, he had the potential to become an arahant on the spot when he met the Buddha. Two theories are given about why Bahiya failed to immediately fine bowl and robe and so lack the prerequisites for ordination then and there. The first theory given in Ud-a (the commentary) suggests that during the time of the Buddha Kassapa he failed to’ sympathetically’ give bowl or robe to any monk, suggesting that they should acquire them by themselves. Another theory is that at a time when ‘the world was empty of a Buddha’, he shot a Paccekabuddha with an arrow out of greed for his bowl and robe. Knowing that the bowl and robe would not appear for Bahiya, the Buddha failed to givehim the customary ‘going forth’ with the words “Come, monk!” As I also mentioned in the last post, Bahiya had listened to 'Dhamma-teaching' from previous Buddhas and also to anagamis (non-returners) in deva realms. So while it might seem from the sutta that he was also not well-versed in the Abhidhamma, from all his previously accumulated knowledge,jhanic abilities and other kusala kamma, he was able to fully penetrate the succinct summary of the Abhidhamma in the brief words as I understand. Look forward to any comments, Metta, Sarah ==== 24981 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard & Christine, > > >H: I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who > achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing > instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the > Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so > without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going > "too far".< > .... > You did mention this before and I'd be interested in a reference if you or > someone else comes across it. ___________ Dear Sarah, The story is in the Dhammapada atthakatha verse 25. The monk is Culapantaka and he couldn't memorize even a 4 line stanza of the Tipitaka because in the time of Kassapa Buddha he had mocked another Bhikkhu for being slow. He had enormous accumulations of insight though, and so the Buddha gave him the cloth to rub and seeing the dirt he attained vipassana and nibbana. He was an arahant with the 4 patisambhidha and had great powers. Someone of thse times might think they could equal his vast insight, but we can check now and see whether rubbing a cloth leads us to arahatship in a few minutes. In fact Culapantaka was either Ugghatitannu or Vipancitannu, who do not need so many detaqils of the teaching. At this time these typs of being are said to be extinct and now we are either Neyya, who need many details and may attain if they understand and practice correctly, and padaparama who cannot attain in this life, but may attain in future lives. The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, the Abhidhammattha Vibhavani says: "Those among the different groups who are slow in understanding as regards mentality can understand realities as explained by way of five khandhas, because mentality is classified by way of four khandhas, thus, in a more extensive way. Those who are slow in understanding as regards physical phenomena (rupa) can understand realities as explained by way of åyatanas. The five senses and the five sense objects are ten kinds of rúpa which are åyatanas. As to dhammåyatana this comprises both nåma and rúpa. Thus in this classification rúpa has been explained more extensively. Those who are slow in understanding as to both nåma and rúpa can understand realities as explained by way of elements, dhåtus, because in this classification both nåma and rúpa have been explained in detail." Which type are we: slow in understanding nama, slow in understanding rupa or slow in both? RobertK 24982 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:49am Subject: Bahiya6 - *RobM* - kamma Dear Nina, RobM (& Christine, Jim, RobK), As RobM said, we had a most enjoyable early evening dhamma and dhamma-related discussion. Time went very fast. As usual, we were so impressed by all the examples of RobM’s kindnesses - he seldom misses an opportunity to help others, especially with regard to sharing the Dhamma in many different ways. He even told us a story about a minor car accident recently (whilst on a trip to buy padded envelopes to send the CDs To Chris and others). He and the other car driver worked out an amicable arrangement after the accident and he gave her one of the metta CDs on the spot. I’m sure his many acts of kindness will bring many good results and meanwhile are accumulating at a rapid rate as far as I can tell;-) Why did the cow with a calf collide and thus kill Bahiya? As we know, nothing happens by accident. According to the commentary, it was on account of ‘resentment acquired in a former existence’ which ‘gave rise to thoughts of revenge simply at the mere sight of him’, leading the cow to strike him with her horn and kill him. We no longer have discussions with Rob about anatta and free-will as I think we’re mostly in agreement these days;-). Kamma, kamma-patha and punna-kiriya-vatthu are now more problematic and difficult areas for us to resolve. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/kamma_patha.htm http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/punna_kiriya_v.htm The question is whether all or which moments of kamma (cetana cetasika) can be said to bring results. Rob finds the suggestion that only kusala and akusala kamma-patha bring results to be somewhat far-fetched, illogical and as yet unconvincing from the references provided. I also agree with him that the scope would seem to be rather narrow. For example, how would generosity be included? If punna-kiriya-vatthu (bases of meritorious action) are included, then acts of generosity and other wholesome deeds are covered. Rob, you asked at one stage what Nina has to say and this is one post she wrote to you on this question: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18349.html In this post I gave the following quote, but I’m not sure whether refers to kusala kamma-patha or to punna-kiriya-vatthu.Maybe Nina can add more. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m16003.html Sammohavinodani, comm to Dhammasangani, PTS trnsl, Class. of the Structureof Conditions 681: “Firstly, with the formation of merit of the sense sphere as condition(there arise) the sixteen (kinds of resultant consciousness, namely,)the five profitable resultant beginning with eye-consciousness, and in respect of mind consciousness, one kind of mind element and two kinds of mind-consciousness element, and the eight kinds of sense-sphere resultant;accordingly as it is said: “Due to profitable kamma of the sense-sphere having been performed, stored up, resultant eye-consciousness arises’ (Dhs431........” So what is meant by ‘the formation of merit’ here? 645: “Herein, because “it purifies (p.naati) the one who performs it, and it perfects (puureti) his inclination, and it produces an honourable (pujja)state”, it is merit (pu~n~na). Because “it forms result and the kind of materiality due to kamma performed”,(cf Vis 538)it is “formation”(abhisa”nkhara)....” ***** Nina, I’m not sure if you can help furthe. I think Rob finds it very limited or like a sudden cut-off to say only kamma-patha brings results and other moments of kamma (cetana) do not even act in this way even in a very mild form. I mentioned in another post than when I raised the topic with K.Sujin she mentioned that this is why there are different conditions such as upanissaya and kamma. Also the 3 rounds. However, I’m just parrotting and not able to help much if at all. It would be helpful to find some very specific references and it occurred to us that Christine, as ‘foremost in web-tracking’ might be able to help too. Jim,RobK or others may also have suggestions. With metta, Sarah p.s Jim, RobM mentioned in passing that his father has a cottage which seems to be very close to where you are in Ontario... I hope you have a chance to meet him one day too. ======================================================= 24983 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:36am Subject: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living Hi Nori (& Mike), I'm just a little concerned that my comments may have been too blunt or even flippant sounding. I’ll just add a little more on a rather more conventional line if I can: --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Nori, > > What do you think life would be like dwelling in a forest in Sri > > Lanka (or any other thera-buddhist dominated country), living off > > alms with a small backpack and tent (moving from place to place; as > > opposed to a monastery)? > > > > Would it be any more conducive to the ending of dukkha (than living > > as a householder in a busy city with a job with long hours) ? > ..... I just want to add that if you feel inclined to spend time travelling or living in a Thera-Buddhist country such as Sri Lanka, I’m sure you can manage to do so very inexpensively. I don’t think you would receive any support outside a temple, however, and I think this would be generally frowned upon by the local residents who are mostly very poor themselves but seldom ask for any help or beg. It would simply be rather incomprehensible to most I think. Really, though, one can live on very little in the countryside, I’m sure or else in temples as a visitor perhaps. Perhaps you might also consider a holiday to Asia in the first place, to join some of us for discussions or on a trip. You’d be most welcome. Pls let us know more about why you consider such a lifestyle as more ‘conducive to ending of dukkha’. ..... As I’m quoting from the Bahiya sutta and commentary to everyone, let me find a piece for you as well;-). When Bahiya was living simply in seclusion in the forest, content with little, praised and respected but under the delusion of attainments, Brahma said to him: “ ‘...nor is this practice of yours one by which you could become an arahant or one who has attained the arahant-path’(saa pi te pa.tipadaa n’atthiyaaya tva.m arahaa vaa assa arahattamagga.m vaa samaapanno):whereas in this way he rejects even the status of the virtuous puthujjana for him. Herein: ‘practice’ (pa.tipadaa): the six purifications beginning with the purification of morality and so on, it being a ‘practice’ (pa.tipadaa) since it is by this means that one comes to practise (pa.tipajjati) the ariyan paths.” ..... After Bahiya has passed into parinibbana, the Buddha mentions that Bahiya was one who did not ‘vex’ him ‘on the basis of Dhamma’, on account of ‘having practised as instructed’. Obviously the ‘practice as instructed’ does not refer to going to any place but to fully comprehending the nature of realities as anatta on the spot. .... Whichever way I approach these questions, it always comes back to the importance of ‘straightening of one’s views’ (ditthujukamma). Without the development of right understanding there won’t be any knowing of when there is kusala that is to be developed and when there is akusala that is to be abandoned or what the truth is at this moment. Without the great compassion and assistance of Brahma and the Buddha, Bahiya might still be wandering around in samsara, following wrong practices and blinded by conceit and ignorance too. Comments most welcome, Metta, Sarah ====== http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html 24984 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi RobertK, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > The story is in the Dhammapada atthakatha verse 25. ..... Excellent! Thanks for all the extra details too. I think it's time for a complete re-reading of the Dhp attakatha for me.... Metta, Sarah p.s RobM was just saying how much he appreciated your posts, so good to see this one;-) ===== 24985 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:16am Subject: Re: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hello Sarah and All, Over the last couple of days, I've been thinking about kamma a lot. At first, kamma sounds a neat explanation for the puzzling things that happen to people. But is this just blind faith in something that can't be proven, anymore than the existence or otherwise of gods or demons controlling things can't be proven or disproven. As an explanation of things as they really are, it seems like something a child might conclude: "this awful thing happened because I must have been bad and deserve it, even though no- one can tell me what it was I did". Today, the idea of kamma seems too pat an explanation. All these stories of far away and long ago (like Bahiya) sound romantic and have a certain attraction. But perhaps they are only morality tales, teaching parables, and can't be accepted as an explanation for the ugliness of real life. Yesterday, here, a four month old, an eighteen month old, and a five year old were stabbed to death by their father, an eleven month old still clings to life. A young injured mother watched most of her children, plus one baby she was minding, being killed - unable to defend them. This is what can happen, out of the blue, to ordinary people. Naturally one wants to say there is a reason (the kamma they committed coming home to roost). Because, if there is a reason for it happening to the little ones, then maybe it won't happen to me ... or to my children. Maybe belief in kamma/vipaka is a security blanket that we cling to, as it's a little more intellectual-sounding than theism - it keeps away the fear that maybe chaos really reigns supreme. Kamma doesn't seem to have a point, there is no verifiable balance sheet, no kamma- cupboard where it's stored while awaiting consequences - it doesn't teach any lessons because no-one remembers their alleged past lives, and justice is not seen to be done. Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard & Christine, > > >H: I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who > achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing > instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the > Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so > without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going > "too far".< > .... > You did mention this before and I'd be interested in a reference if you or > someone else comes across it. It also half rings a bell to me. I'm also > thinking again of Christine's question about intelligence and insight. > > Accumulations or habitual tendencies are so very complicated and so often > the picture we get is a very limited one. Taking the case of Bahiya, we > read about the seemingly simple life of a man dressed in lower garments > made from bark and hiding in the forest. We read that he was > well-respected and provided for, but convinced erroneously that he was an > arahant until the visit of the Brahma. > > Without knowing the details in the commentary about how he had been a > trader and ship-wrecked in that life or about the details of his previous > lives in deva realms and meeting former Buddhas, one might easily have the > idea that he was simple-minded in someway. > > His story is also an example of how easily we can mistrue the outer > appearances. He refused offers of clothes and continued to live in > seclusion (pa.tisalliinassa) because he wished to continue receiving > `gains and respect' on account of being perceived to be very worthy and to > lead a faultless life by the local people. He became more and more > self-deluded as a result. > > Yet, as we read later, he had the potential to become an arahant on the > spot when he met the Buddha. > > Two theories are given about why Bahiya failed to immediately fine bowl > and robe and so lack the prerequisites for ordination then and there. > > The first theory given in Ud-a (the commentary) suggests that during the > time of the Buddha Kassapa he failed to' sympathetically' give bowl or > robe to any monk, suggesting that they should acquire them by themselves. > Another theory is that at a time when `the world was empty of a Buddha', > he shot a Paccekabuddha with an arrow out of greed for his bowl and robe. > > Knowing that the bowl and robe would not appear for Bahiya, the Buddha > failed to givehim the customary `going forth' with the words "Come, monk!" > > As I also mentioned in the last post, Bahiya had listened to > 'Dhamma-teaching' from previous Buddhas and also to anagamis > (non-returners) in deva realms. So while it might seem from the sutta that > he was also not well-versed in the Abhidhamma, from all his previously > accumulated knowledge,jhanic abilities and other kusala kamma, he was able > to fully penetrate the succinct summary of the Abhidhamma in the brief > words as I understand. > > Look forward to any comments, > > Metta, > > Sarah > ==== 24986 From: Andrew Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 3:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Dear RobM, James and Howard, You wrote: RobM: In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma. James: I will give you twenty guesses as to what I think of Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda's statements about the Abhidhamma...Can you see the tone of conceit in his writing? I sure can! Maybe we can thank his Abhidhamma studies for that. Howard: I think one doesn't have to look far to spot tones of conceit in *each* of us. I think that when we are very, very sure about a matter that we don't truly know first hand - which applies to almost every opinion on almost everything that almost everyone of has - conceit is there. We're all filled with opinions, and we all think we are "right". I'm engaged in that at this very moment! (Of course, there *are* degrees to things.) In the Ariyapariyesana Sutta, Buddha compared our realm to a lotus pond. We are all at different places, depths and stages in that pond. It is surely incorrect to hold that the Buddhadhamma is a "one size fits all" phenomenon. This, I think, is illustrated in the Mahagosinga Sutta. This sutta relates a conversation in the Gosinga sala-tree wood between 6 senior and accomplished bhikkhus. They posed the question "what kind of bhikkhu could illuminate the Gosinga sala- tree wood?" Not surprisingly, each answered with a description of a bhikkhu matching their own accomplishments. Ananda described a good learner. Revata described a good solitary meditator. Anuruddha described a bhikkhu with the divine eye. Kassapa described a 'fewness of wishes' forest dweller. Moggallana described a bhikkhu good at discussing the higher Dhamma. Sariputta described one in control of his own mind. They then went to the Buddha and told him everything that had happened and asked him who had spoken well. THE BUDDHA ANSWERED THAT THEY HAD ALL SPOKEN WELL. Surely he would not have so answered if you can only attain Nibbana by meditating or by studying or whatever? My conclusion: it's not wholesome to get uptight [experience dosa?] when people claim to be practising the Middle Way in a manner that does not match your own preferences. I am not stating that anyone in this thread has actually got uptight in this manner. Indeed, how would I know ... and that's exactly my point. I'm in the lotus pond. Don't ask me whether it's the sunny end or the muddy end - whichever way I answer, there will be some conceit (mana) in my reply. Better that I focus on where I am at without seeing if it's higher or lower than the others around me. Hope that makes sense to you. Andrew 24987 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] pali fonts and Velthuis Hi Larry, Okay, that's fine with me. I'll go with your vote unless directed to do otherwise. Jim > Jim: "I just need to know whether the group wishes to carry on from > XIV.33 or go directly to the last chapter on the benefits of developing > understanding (as I had suggested earlier) and then go back and carry on > from XIV.33 with the detailed analysis of the aggregates." > > Hi Jim, > > I vote for keeping the order and not jumping ahead. > > Larry 24988 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/5/03 1:05:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "It seems to me that sa~n~na has a unifying, unit-making > function, which is why it plays a crucial role in our tendency towards > reification." > > Hi Howard, > > It occurred to me that a better translation for sa~n~na might be > imagination, primarily in the sense of image making for the purpose of > identification and understanding on a simple level. An image, aka sign > (nimitta), is abstract and assumed to be unchanging, in other words a > concept. As a basis of identity an image is the source of belief in the > concept of self; although that belief (di.t.thi) goes beyond the > phenomenon of the image. Hence there is a slight difference between > identity (sa~n~na) and belief (di.t.thi) in an identity. > > I don't know where "unit-making" comes from but one could argue that a > unit, or compact whole, is what an image is. For example, we can look at > a table and look at a chair and see them as two; or we could look at a > table and chair and see unity. Is that a matter of image making? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, I think there is real virtue to your analysis. Image making (or sign making) is the key. Very good. ------------------------------------------------ > > One comment about the commentary below: notice that interdependence is > not negated. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I did, indeed, notice that. I noticed talk of the activity of grouping of "states" as unities, taking them as unitary objects which, when seen rightly, disintegrate like froth, and I noticed the "mere" states, themselves, talked of as being conditioned and void. This all got through to me, and it is largely what is encouraging me to look far more carefully at the Vism. Now I just have to go slowly with it, patiently, and resist putting it away when I come across parts that are not so pleasing to me! ;-) ------------------------------------------------ > > Larry > > Vism. XXI, n.4: "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means > that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as > an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial states > have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, > for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, > compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to > pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although > definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are > taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, > although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects > make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they > are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, > they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They > are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this > way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm. 824). ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24989 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi, Sarah (and Christine) - Of course, I do not at *all* dismiss the role of accumulations in the case of the mentally deficient person or in other cases. Conditions, all the necessary conditions, must be in place for any event to occur, including stream entry. But what they are in a specific case is usually indiscernible for us, and to assume that for stream entry they must include having had more or less direct contact with Abhidhamma teachings during some lifetime or other strikes me as a BIG presumption. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/5/03 3:07:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard &Christine, > > >H: I believe, by the example I gave recently of a retarded man who > achieved stream entry by following the Buddha's cloth-rubbing > instructions. He was surely not versed in Abhidhamma. But to write off the > Abhidhamma and the commentaries completely, and especially to do so > without an extensive, fair hearing, might well also be considered as going > "too far".< > .... > You did mention this before and I’d be interested in a reference if you or > someone else comes across it. It also half rings a bell to me. I’m also > thinking again of Christine’s question about intelligence and insight. > > Accumulations or habitual tendencies are so very complicated and so often > the picture we get is a very limited one. Taking the case of Bahiya, we > read about the seemingly simple life of a man dressed in lower garments > made from bark and hiding in the forest. We read that he was > well-respected and provided for, but convinced erroneously that he was an > arahant until the visit of the Brahma. > > As I also mentioned in the last post, Bahiya had listened to > 'Dhamma-teaching' from previous Buddhas and also to anagamis > (non-returners) in deva realms. So while it might seem from the sutta that > he was also not well-versed in the Abhidhamma, from all his previously > accumulated knowledge,jhanic abilities and other kusala kamma, he was able > to fully penetrate the succinct summary of the Abhidhamma in the brief > words as I understand. > > Look forward to any comments, > > Metta, > > Sarah /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24990 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya5 - *Howard&Christine* - ordinary people? Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/5/03 6:20:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Sarah and All, > > Over the last couple of days, I've been thinking about kamma a lot. > At first, kamma sounds a neat explanation for the puzzling things > that happen to people. But is this just blind faith in > something that can't be proven, anymore than the existence or > otherwise of gods or demons controlling things can't be proven or > disproven. As an explanation of things as they really are, it > seems like something a child might conclude: "this awful thing > happened because I must have been bad and deserve it, even though no- > one can tell me what it was I did". Today, the idea of kamma seems > too pat an explanation. All these stories of far away and long ago > (like Bahiya) sound romantic and have a certain attraction. But > perhaps they are only morality tales, teaching parables, and can't > be accepted as an explanation for the ugliness of real life. > Yesterday, here, a four month old, an eighteen month old, and a five > year old were stabbed to death by their father, an eleven month old > still clings to life. A young injured mother watched most of her > children, plus one baby she was minding, being killed - unable to > defend them. > This is what can happen, out of the blue, to ordinary people. > Naturally one wants to say there is a reason (the kamma they > committed coming home to roost). Because, if there is a reason for > it happening to the little ones, then maybe it won't happen to me ... > or to my children. > > Maybe belief in kamma/vipaka is a security blanket that we cling to, > as it's a little more intellectual-sounding than theism - it keeps > away the fear that maybe chaos really reigns supreme. Kamma doesn't > seem to have a point, there is no verifiable balance sheet, no kamma- > cupboard where it's stored while awaiting consequences - it > doesn't teach any lessons because no-one remembers their alleged past > lives, and justice is not seen to be done. > > Christine > ============================ I suspect that kamma and its effects form an *extraordinarily* complex causal web, and that most popular understandings of it are wildly primitive compared to the reality. One thing I think may be good to keep in mind is that kamma (one's "own" kamma) is but one if several niyama, or cosmic principles active in human affairs. While all sense experience that comes to us is kamma vipaka in the sense that at least *some* previous intention/intentional action constituted conditions for its arising, sometimes that may be the smallest part. When A attacks B, the primary condition for what B experiences is most typically the akusula kamma of A far more than the akusala vipaka of B. If B's experience were entirely or largely due to B's own vipaka, then A would be the innocent vehicle for the working out of B's kamma, a rather perverse notion, as I see it. So called innocent victims, are, I really do believe, innocent for the most part. There is no way for us to sift out how much of what ill comes to us is "kammic compensation" and how much is being the innocent recipient of evil actions of others, but I think that in this area it is reasonably safe to *primarily* rely on common sense. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24991 From: Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi, Andrew - VERY nice. Thank you! With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/5/03 6:27:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > Dear RobM, James and Howard, > You wrote: > RobM: In "What Buddhists Believe", Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda says: > We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we > experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge > of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and > explaining the Dhamma. In fact the real meaning of the most > important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, > Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a > knowledge of Abhidhamma. > James: I will give you twenty guesses as to what I think of Dr. K. > Sri Dhammananda's statements about the Abhidhamma...Can you see the > tone of conceit in his writing? I sure can! Maybe we can thank his > Abhidhamma studies for that. > Howard: I think one doesn't have to look far to spot tones of conceit > in *each* of us. I think that when we are very, very sure about a > matter that we don't truly know first hand - which applies to almost > every opinion on almost everything that almost everyone of has - > conceit is there. We're all filled with opinions, and we all think we > are "right". I'm engaged in that at this very moment! (Of course, > there *are* degrees to things.) > > In the Ariyapariyesana Sutta, Buddha compared our realm to a lotus > pond. We are all at different places, depths and stages in that > pond. It is surely incorrect to hold that the Buddhadhamma is a "one > size fits all" phenomenon. This, I think, is illustrated in the > Mahagosinga Sutta. This sutta relates a conversation in the Gosinga > sala-tree wood between 6 senior and accomplished bhikkhus. They posed > the question "what kind of bhikkhu could illuminate the Gosinga sala- > tree wood?" Not surprisingly, each answered with a description of a > bhikkhu matching their own accomplishments. Ananda described a good > learner. Revata described a good solitary meditator. Anuruddha > described a bhikkhu with the divine eye. Kassapa described > a 'fewness of wishes' forest dweller. Moggallana described a bhikkhu > good at discussing the higher Dhamma. Sariputta described one in > control of his own mind. They then went to the Buddha and told him > everything that had happened and asked him who had spoken well. THE > BUDDHA ANSWERED THAT THEY HAD ALL SPOKEN WELL. Surely he would not > have so answered if you can only attain Nibbana by meditating or by > studying or whatever? > My conclusion: it's not wholesome to get uptight [experience dosa?] > when people claim to be practising the Middle Way in a manner that > does not match your own preferences. I am not stating that anyone in > this thread has actually got uptight in this manner. Indeed, how > would I know ... and that's exactly my point. I'm in the lotus > pond. Don't ask me whether it's the sunny end or the muddy end - > whichever way I answer, there will be some conceit (mana) in my > reply. Better that I focus on where I am at without seeing if it's > higher or lower than the others around me. > Hope that makes sense to you. > Andrew > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24992 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 8:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > My conclusion: it's not wholesome to get uptight [experience dosa?] > when people claim to be practising the Middle Way in a manner that > does not match your own preferences. I am not stating that anyone in > this thread has actually got uptight in this manner. Indeed, how > would I know ... and that's exactly my point. I'm in the lotus > pond. Don't ask me whether it's the sunny end or the muddy end - > whichever way I answer, there will be some conceit (mana) in my > reply. Better that I focus on where I am at without seeing if it's > higher or lower than the others around me. > Hope that makes sense to you. Thank you. Well said. I will use these Sutta references next week - I have been invited to give an "Introduction to Abhidhamma" Dhamma talk to a general Buddhist audience and the issue of, "Why not just focus on the Suttas?" is often raised at these types of talks. Metta, Rob M :-) 24993 From: connie Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: peace, Icaro Dear Icaro, The mating flies flew off the screen together when I touched them and I don't know where they went. The two that were in my cup flew in there on their own and one was definitely drowned. I think the other was still alive when I threw it out, but I didn't do any artificial respiration or anything. For the most part, no Beach Boys, heavy metal or rap. For the rest, ok. Something might be a favorite one time and then I don't like it next time I hear it. Yes, Nichiren is very different and I'm afraid I'm a bit like a fly myself to friends who put their faith there. Still, the chanting doesn't go away and I do like the LS. metta, connie 24994 From: torloff87048 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: The physical bases. Dear Rob, Nina and others, Thanks for your responses to my question about the physical location of the heart-base. Actually, I had misread the commentary (in CMA) as saying the heart-base was the physical cavity inside the heart. That seemed so specific and strange that I had to ask about it. What it actually says is that the heart-base is the blood inside the cavity in the heart. This is in line with Rob's remarks about ancient Indian beliefs. To me, this is a satisfying answer because it ends speculation on the matter- that's the true wisdom in it. As many of you pointed out, such speculation is more of a hindrance to insight than an aid. Thanks again, Toby 24995 From: torloff87048 Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma Hi Sarah, Thanks for your interest in my "bio" and for taking the time to put together references that might be useful to me. It's great to come across so much sincere and intelligent conversation on the Dhamma as there is in this group. People here are very knowledgable. > > It's really great to have your contributions here and thank you very much > for taking the time to give such a detailed and unusual introduction. I > know it can't be easy to describe the experiences you have shared. Thank > you for your efforts to do so. You're welcome. I enjoy sharing the experience of insight meditation, especially when it is about actual transformation. I hope to see some threads develop along these lines in DSG. Toby 24996 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:11am Subject: Issues of Dhamma, no 9, The sixfold Path Dhamma Issues Chapter 9 The sixfold Path Introduction [1]. There are eight factors of the eightfold Path: right view, right thinking, right effort, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right mindfulness and right concentration. These factors are eight sobhana cetasikas which have to be developed together. The factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood are the sobhana cetasikas which are the abstinences, virati-cetasikas. They are abstinence from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. Abstinence from wrong speech is abstinence from lying, slandering, harsh speech and idle, frivolous talk. Abstinence from wrong action is abstinence from killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. Abstinence from wrong livelihood is abstinence from wrong speech and wrong action committed for the sake of one¹s livelihood. In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere, these abstinences arise only one at a time, because a person can only abstain from one kind of evil at a time. There are many degrees of the three abstinences. They can arise without understanding or accompanied by understanding. When they are accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path they have a higher degree of purity, because at that moment there is no notion of self who abstains from evil. As we have seen, the abstinences which accompany cittas of the sense-sphere arise only one at a time. However, when lokuttara citta arises, all three abstinences accompany the lokuttara citta and nibbåna is the object of citta and the accompanying cetasikas. The three abstinences fulfil their functions of path-factors in cutting off the conditions for wrong conduct (Atthasåliní, II, Part VIII, Ch 1, 219, 220). When satipaììhåna is developed five path-factors accompany the citta, and, as the occasion arises, there can, in addition, be one of the three abstinences. Thus, when the eightfold Path is mundane, it has five or six factors. Whereas when it is lokuttara, it has all eight factors. When the Path is mundane and it is accompanied, for example, by abstinence of wrong speech, thus by right speech, the five path-factors are the condition for right speech to become more perfect. The ³Dispeller of Delusion² states, that right speech ³perfects itself² at that moment. As is explained in this Issue, the five factors which accompany one of the abstinences perform a function with regard to that particular abstinence. However, only lokuttara magga-citta can eradicate wrong conduct at different stages of enlightenment. ***** Issue of Analysis: Do six factors of the eightfold Path arise together when satipatthåna is being developed? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: six factors of the eightfold Path can arise together when satipatthåna is being developed. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. The Commentary to the ³Book of Analysis², the ³Dispeller of Delusion², II, Ch 11, Classification of the Path, B. Abhidhamma Division. 2. The ³Såratthappakåsiní², the Commentary to the ³Kindred Sayings², the Commentary to the Mahå-vagga, Book I, Ignorance. The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: In the ³Dispeller of Delusion², II, Ch 11, Classification of the Path, B. Abhidhamma Division, the functions of the factors of the fivefold Path have been explained: ²...Then by this fivefold Path, what purpose is taken up? The purpose of explaining (special) functions more clearly. For at the time when he abandons wrong speech and perfects right speech, at that time there are not right action and right livelihood; it is only these five action-causing factors which abandon wrong speech. Right speech perfects itself through abstention [2]. At the time when he abandons wrong action and perfects right action, at that time there are not right speech and right livelihood. It is only these five action-causing factors which abandon wrong action. Right action perfects itself through abstention. At the time when he abandons wrong livelihood and perfects right livelihood, at that time there are not right speech and right action. It is only these five action-causing factors which abandon wrong livelihood. Right livelihood perfects itself through abstention. This is taken as the Œfivefold path¹ in order to show the extra function of these factors that cause action...² The ³Såratthappakåsiní², the Commentary to the ³Kindred Sayings², in the Commentary to the Mahå-vagga, Book I, Ignorance, gives additional explanations: ³As it is also stated in the ŒAbhidhamma¹ (Dhammasangaùi, §89 3 ), it was said, ŒAt that time there is the fivefold Path¹, in order to explain the specific functions of the Path-factors. At the time when he abandons wrong action, right action is perfected, and there are no wrong speech or wrong livelihood. As to the five factors of right view, thinking, effort, mindfulness and concentration, right action is perfected by these five action-causing factors. Because of abstention right action truly perfects itself. The same is explained with regard to right speech and right livelihood. This was said in order to explain the specific functions of the Path-factors. In the case of the Path which is Œworldly¹ (lokiya), there are five Path-factors. Abstention is not definite [3] and therefore the Buddha did not say that there are six factors, but he spoke of five factors.² From these quoted texts it can be concluded that six Path-factors can arise together when satipatthåna is being developed. There are the following reasons: 1. The text explaining the functions of the five factors of the Path and of each of the three abstentions, ³these five action-causing factors abandon wrong speech. Right speech perfects itself through abstention² etc. has the following meaning: the fivefold Path-factors manifest their specific functions, they are the factors that are the condition for abandoning akusala (wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood). With regard to abstention, this is the function of the three virati (abstention) cetasikas, which abstain each in their specific case. When abstention arises in the case of lokiya magga, the Path that is worldly, only one of the three virati cetasikas at a time accompany the other five Path-factors and then the Path is sixfold. But when abstention does not arise, the Path is fivefold. 2. The quoted text which is, ³In the case of the Path which is Œworldly¹ (lokiya), there are five Path-factors. Abstention is not definite and therefore the Buddha did not say that there are six factors, but he spoke of five factors², has the following meaning: when satipatthåna arises, there must be at least five Path- factors which definitely arise. They are: right view, right thinking, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. Sometimes one of the three abstentions, right speech, right action or right livelihood, also arise and in that case the Path is sixfold. When one of the three abstentions is accompanied by the five Path-factors, it is different from abstention without understanding of the characteristics of realities. Abstention accompanies the five Path factors when there is understanding of realities which appear. Then it is realized that it is only a dhamma which abstains, not self. 3. Since the Buddha has explained that all eight factors should be developed, including each of the three abstentions, it can be concluded that sometimes one of the three can accompany the five Path factors, so that, in that case, the Path is sixfold. Thus, it is not said that the abstentions never arise when insight is being developed. However, only when the Path is lokuttara all three abstentions arise together. ***** Footnotes. 1. I wrote the Introduction. 2. The English translation of the P.T.S. by Ven. Nyanamoli, has a negation: ³Also right speech does not perfect through abstention itself². However, three manuscripts (the editions in Roman, Burmese and Singhalese script) do not have this negation, they state: ³Right speech perfects itself through abstention² and so on for the other two abstentions. Moreover, as we shall see, the Commentary to the Mahå-vagga does not have this negation. The text states, ³at that time there are not right action and right livelihood². The reason is that there can only be one kind of abstention at a time. The ³five action causing factors² (in Pali kaaraka: doing, active) are the other five factors of the eightfold Path which accompany the kusala citta that abstains from evil. The text states: ³ it is only these five action-causing factors which abandon wrong speech. Right speech perfects itself through abstention.² These five factors have each a specific function and they are a condition for abstinence from evil. When right understanding, right mindfulness and the other Path-factors arise, there cannot be wrong action. Moreover, they are the condition for abstinence to become purer, because at such a moment there is no notion of self who abstains. The development of the Path-factors leads to the eradication of wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. 3. Abstention, virati: this includes the three factors which are abstention from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. When the Path is not lokuttara, supermundane, they may arise one at a time, or they may not arise. Their arising is not fixed or certain, because there is not always an opportunity for abstention from wrong speech, wrong action or wrong livelihood. ****** (translated from Thai) Nina. 24997 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsg, stillness Dear Howard, I quite agree when speaking of the end result. The perfect calm or stillness is being removed from all defilements. Nibbana is also called the cool. Nina. op 04-09-2003 19:58 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: But there is, as I see it, another sense in which the > ultimate aim *is* stillness, namely that total disinclination towards being > disturbed, that complete absence of dukkha, which is nibbana, 24998 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:11am Subject: FW: [Pali] Pali -aasava, saasava Dear all, on Pali yahoo list we just received this text. I asked permission to forward it. After all our discossions about this subject! Nina. ---------- Van: John Kelly Beantwoord: Pali@yahoogroups.com Datum: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Aan: Pali Onderwerp: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B069] Pali - Every few days - [B069] Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 4 ? Further Readings Ex. 3. (Part 4 of 7) Dve'maani, bhikkhave, sukhaani. Monks, there are these two types of happiness. Katamaani dve? What two? Saasavasukha.m ca anaasavasukha~nca. There is the happiness of clinging and the happiness of non-clinging. Imaani kho, bhikkhave, dve sukhaani. Indeed, monks, these are two types of happiness. Etadagga.m, bhikkhave, imesa.m dvinna.m sukhaana.m yadida.m anaasavasukha.m ti. The better, monks, of these two types of happiness is the happiness of non-clinging. 24999 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] dsgn, rupa and Pali accents Dear Icaro, an interesting text. See below. op 04-09-2003 21:01 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > > Dhammasangani, fourth book - Atthakathakhandam, > last stanca: > > "1616. Katame dhamma arana? Cattusu bhumisu kusalam, > cattusu bhumisu vipako, tisu bhumisu kiriyabyakatam, > RUPA?CA, nibbana?ca? ime dhamma arana." N: arana should be spelled: ara.na (this is Velthuis, a dot under the n, which makes a lot of difference). It means: far from, away from. The signs coming over on computer as ? also need replacement by Velthuis. It is essential to have thos correct, we may confuse cases. . uu for the long u, aa for the long a. Shall I give you the whole list? I have now completed my funny sign list with the Velthuis equivalents. You know this one: 3/4 is : aa. 1/2 is : .m . Spanish n stays the same in the web text, but we can also write: ~n. I would like to help and encourage Sarah with the funny accents, it is simple. I had them all in the first paras of the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, I took from the web. Now I can get any text. Now your text: P.T.S. transl:
Thus, ruupa and nibbaana are the realities removed from objects. I think the word dhamma stands here for object, aaramma.na. This is one of the meanings of dhamma. Object of thought just means: object. Rupa and nibbana cannot take any object. The reason: ruupa does not know anything, it cannot think, feel or remember. Nibbaana is not citta, it cannot experience an object, but, nibbaana itself can be an object, the object of lokuttara citta. Thus, this part of the text makes sense to me. The P.T.S. has these in an Appendix and has not properly translated the whole text. And if you do not give it with the proper accents, the construction is not so clear. Now this is interesting: Ch XI (also towards the end): mahantara duka.m: N: the last one is nibbaana. Nina.