25400 From: Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi, Jon (and Jim) - In a message dated 9/18/03 7:20:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Jim > > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: >Hi Jon, > > Jim: > When you write (as you have before) about the difference between > concentration and samatha, you seem to take samatha as never being an > akusala dhamma in the way that concentration can in order to show the > difference between the two. Yet, from my reading of the Dhammasangani > §365 etc, 'samatha' is included in with the same akusala dhamma as > wrong concentration, one pointedness of mind, etc. See Buddhist > Psychological Ethics, p. 91 'quiet'. > > Jon: > Hmmm, puzzling. The list appears to be a list of the cetasikas > accompanying a particular akusala citta. I have no idea which > cetasika is represented by the term 'samatha' here. > =========================== Lists aside, wouldn't it be appropriate to say that while Jeffrey Dahmer was enjoying a large, satisfying dinner, his calm mindstates were akusala? ;-) The point, it seems to me, is that evil actions can instill delightful calm in some people, and that calm is certainly unwholesome. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25401 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:38am Subject: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Dear Jim, Sarah and all How are you? Jim wrote: "I think it's much better to study the teachings in the Buddha's own language. Recently, I've been thinking of translations as being counterfeits. They should never be taken as equivalents of the original. I never did put much faith in translations and I will probably never be a translator myself. It's a good thing that the Pali has been kept alive and well. Think of how much worse off we'd all be if there had been a dominant mindset that considered translations to be exact equivalents of the originals and the Pali had been discarded and obliterated many centuries ago." Although I do not have as strong a view as Jim on translations, I do have similar view on preferableness of reading in the original Pali language. Here are my attitudes and experiences in learning foreign languages. Stage One When I became serious about mastering English language as a teenager, I have had very strange attitudes regarding dictionaries. They are as follows. 1. Get rid of the English-Myanmar Dictionaries as soon as possible. 2. Develop the ability to use English-English Dictionaries only - as soon as possible. 3. If you cannot use English-English Dictionaries, you will never understand English, let alone master it. Nobody has taught me to get the above attitudes. They just happened to me naturally. With those attitudes, I, as a teenager, began to attack the problem of putting English-English dictionaries under my control - like a lunatic. Stage Two When I came to Australia in 1980 as an immigrant, I came to develop the next very important attiudes, which came to me naturally as well. 1. Get rid of the habit of MENTALLY translating English into my native language, Myanmar. 2. Develop the ability to understand and enjoy English as native speakers of English would. 3. Use English like native speakers do - speak, read, write and dream in English. The above atitudes are also transferred to dealing with Pali language. Needless to say, I find it most enjoyable to read Pali like a native speaker would. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 25402 From: Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fifth Precept Hi again - In a message dated 9/18/03 10:28:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... miswrites: > 2) > Completely abstaining at some times at which there is the active inclination > not > indulge, but not abstaining at other times. ========================= I meant to write "to indulge" where I wrote "not indulge". Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25403 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:06am Subject: kosalla and language. Dear Mike, as to your question about kusala and kosalla, yes, PED gives for kosalla: it is derived from kusala. Translates it as proficiency. As we have seen it classified in Vis it is understanding, a certain aspect of it. Kusala: see Expositor I, p. 83, wholesomeness, faultlessness, and accomplishment by skill. It is translated among others as skillfulness. Looking again at Expositor, so many details I skipped before, but now I have more interest after our studies of Vis. and Tiika. A new subject that strikes me: about language, nirutti. This is because Jim spoke about it. There is a lot about it in the Atthasalini. I try to understand the way of thinking of the ancients about grammar and language and also nomenclature. The name arises with a reality like feeling? (Under nama and namati.) Even an unknown tree in the forest has a name. I used to skip it. But there is more to it. Nirutti is among the meanings of dhamma, it is a dhamma. Nina. 25404 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine, (Howard and all), I have no answers, just more questions: By their nature, rules of training potentially give a false impression. By observing the five precepts, laymen who are worldlings, act out the lifestyle of laymen who are sotapannas; By observing the rules of Vinaya, monks who are not arahants, act out the lifestyle of arahants. What is the reason for of all this 'acting out?' Whatever the reason for it, acting-out should be known for what it is. When we worldlings make a show of not killing an insect, let's not kid ourselves that we wouldn't kill our own next-of-kin if the required conditions were to arise. Genuine abstention is infinitely more praiseworthy than any ritualistic precept-keeping. When we abstain with kusala motives, the abstaining is done before we have even thought about it. The sentiments that automatically follow it are unlikely to be, "I obey the precepts" (though they might be). I think they are much more likely to be, "How could I possibly kill a living creature?" (The answer of course is, 'conditionality.') Kind regards, Ken H 25405 From: Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Ken (and Christine) - In a message dated 9/18/03 7:43:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Christine, (Howard and all), > > I have no answers, just more questions: > > By their nature, rules of training potentially give a > false impression. By observing the five precepts, laymen > who are worldlings, act out the lifestyle of laymen who > are sotapannas; By observing the rules of Vinaya, monks > who are not arahants, act out the lifestyle of arahants. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: This is an interesting observation, Ken. It reminds me of (is it St. Augustine's?) "Imitation of Christ" and Judaism's "Be holy, for I, the Eternal, thy God, am holy." -------------------------------------------- > What is the reason for of all this 'acting out?' > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Possibly, acting "as if" tends to cultivate the actuality. --------------------------------------------- Whatever the reason for it, acting-out should be known> > for what it is. When we worldlings make a show of not > killing an insect, let's not kid ourselves that we > wouldn't kill our own next-of-kin if the required > conditions were to arise. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with this. We may think not, yet we don't know all the conditions that might arise. ------------------------------------------- > > Genuine abstention is infinitely more praiseworthy than > any ritualistic precept-keeping. When we abstain with > kusala motives, the abstaining is done before we have > even thought about it. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: For sure! Merely ritualistic precept-keeping strikes me as falling into the same category of fake commodities as blind faith. One disclaimer, though: Sometimes useful habits can be created by such imitative actions. --------------------------------------------------- The sentiments that automatically> > follow it are unlikely to be, "I obey the precepts" > (though they might be). I think they are much more > likely to be, "How could I possibly kill a living > creature?" > > (The answer of course is, 'conditionality.') > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that the most important point here may be that of internality versus externality. When we make the precepts a part of ourselves, and not mere actions, then we have truly "taken the precepts". It's what's in the mind that is critical. Recall the Dhammapada's statement that "Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they." ---------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25406 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Dear Ken, I've been in Bangkok since wednesday and had a leasurely dinner with betty, Ivan, Elle and Sukinder. We talked about silabataparamasa as one of the topics. Your post is very wise. The other day I was feeling saddened by the 1million abortions performed in a year in America alone (sorry Americans for using your country as an example . I know Russia and china perform many more but they don't give out statisics as much). So we think , all those innocents being slaughtered. How could anyone be so cruel. But in a few lives after this one, we might be an expectant mother in a difficult position and do that very act. Not remembering at all our resolution in a prior life not to kill. That is why uncovering silabataparamasa - by learning to study nama and rupa- is the way it can be attentuated so that genuine insight which will eradicate the conditions for breaking any precepts is a most profitable area for right effort. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, (Howard and all), > > I have no answers, just more questions: > > By their nature, rules of training potentially give a > false impression. By observing the five precepts, laymen > who are worldlings, act out the lifestyle of laymen who > are sotapannas; By observing the rules of Vinaya, monks > who are not arahants, act out the lifestyle of arahants. > What is the reason for of all this 'acting out?' > > Whatever the reason for it, acting-out should be known > for what it is. When we worldlings make a show of not > killing an insect, let's not kid ourselves that we > wouldn't kill our own next-of-kin if the required > conditions were to arise. > > Genuine abstention is infinitely more praiseworthy than > any ritualistic precept-keeping. When we abstain with > kusala motives, the abstaining is done before we have > even thought about it. The sentiments that automatically > follow it are unlikely to be, "I obey the precepts" > (though they might be). I think they are much more > likely to be, "How could I possibly kill a living > creature?" > > (The answer of course is, 'conditionality.') > > Kind regards, > Ken H 25407 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:07pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Ken, I am not sure where you are coming from. How would you know who is acting out with keeping precepts? Is keeping precepts acting out? What do you mean by ritualistic precept-keeping. Can keeping precepts be ritualistic? How would you determine what is ritualistic precept-keeping from non- ritualistic precept-keeping? Who is kidding him or herself that he or she wouldn't kill his or her own next-of-kin if the required conditions were to arise? What required conditions are you talking about? How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, if one has to kill when the required conditions arise? Isn't abstaining from killing, from taking what is not given, from lying, from sexual misconducts, from alcohol and drug itself wholesome? What is fake or genuine about abstaining from killing, from taking what is not given, from lying, from sexual misconducts, from alcohol and drug? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, (Howard and all), > > I have no answers, just more questions: > > By their nature, rules of training potentially give a > false impression. By observing the five precepts, laymen > who are worldlings, act out the lifestyle of laymen who > are sotapannas; By observing the rules of Vinaya, monks > who are not arahants, act out the lifestyle of arahants. > What is the reason for of all this 'acting out?' > > Whatever the reason for it, acting-out should be known > for what it is. When we worldlings make a show of not > killing an insect, let's not kid ourselves that we > wouldn't kill our own next-of-kin if the required > conditions were to arise. > > Genuine abstention is infinitely more praiseworthy than > any ritualistic precept-keeping. When we abstain with > kusala motives, the abstaining is done before we have > even thought about it. The sentiments that automatically > follow it are unlikely to be, "I obey the precepts" > (though they might be). I think they are much more > likely to be, "How could I possibly kill a living > creature?" > > (The answer of course is, 'conditionality.') > > Kind regards, > Ken H 25408 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:11pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Erratum: "How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, if one has to kill when the required conditions arise?" should read "How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, possible if one has to kill when the required conditions arise?" 25409 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:10pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine and all, This is how I see it: The five precepts are clear-cut and unambiguous, and one can decide if these five precepts are rules or guidelines for oneself to live by. It is one's own decision. If one takes up five precepts as rules or guidelines to live by, then drinking wine, however small amount it is, means not refraining from intoxicating drink. He or she broke a rule that he or she had taken up for him or herself. There is no need to justify if drinking small amount of wine does not mean breaking the fifth precept. One can always not to take up the fifth precept as a rule to live by. He or she could be observing four precepts, or three precepts, or two precepts, or one precept, or no precept. If one did want to take up the fifth precept as a rule to live by, then one could just recognize that he or she had broken the rule and make an effort to refrain from drinking intoxicating drinks such as wine or beer. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sarah, Nina and all, 25410 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:31pm Subject: defilements eradicated at stream-entry references, please Dear All: At stream-entry, sotaapatti-magga-citta, what defilements are eradicated? Could you give me some referrence in the tipitaka, too, please? Best Regards, jaran 25411 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Training Precepts Dear Ken, do not be afraid to ask any question, it is not a matter of being horribly wrong. If people never ask, there are always some points of doubt that are not cleared up. op 18-09-2003 05:59 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: >....... > The kamma-pathas ARE intention aren't they? But when you > say,"breaking the fifth precept," you are talking about > conventional reality. A person can break the fifth > precept by drinking alcohol but there may be no serious > intention (cetana, kamma-patha) involved. N: It is not kusala, thus it is akusala. The akusala citta is not a conventional reality. K: I assume the same applies to the other four precepts. OR, > are you saying there is something special about the fifth > precept? N: The other four refer to serious akusala kamma. You may take one sip of wine, but you cannot say, just a little killing. > I ask that partly because the fifth precept doesn't seem > to correspond to any one kamma-patha (as the other four > do). Nina has said that drunkeness may lead to the > breaking of the other four precepts. Did she mean that > the fifth precept doesn't directly relate to any > particular kamma-patha? Or, was she simply making the > point that the precepts are concepts, not dhammas, and > that different dhammas (different types of cetana), can > be involved in each? N: the abstaining is kusala cetana. The precepts themselves are words of advice, guiding people to have kusala citta. The transgressing of the fifth is not among the classified kamma pathas with all the factors which make it a complete action. But , as Howard said, it is serious to drive while drunk. There are degrees of being intoxicated. He says: you need common sense. You have to find out for yourself: this is bad. Sati realizes: this is leading to your benefit, that not. H: Was I correct in assuming that the fifth precept is > basically about the mental kamma-patha, wrong view? N: No, it does not have anything to do with wrong view. Lobha, the wine tastes good. Or, what is worse: one finds it nice to be light in the head and forget one's worries. Nina. 25412 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: defilements eradicated at the sotaapattimagga-citta and references 2 op 18-09-2003 13:52 schreef Jaran Jainhuknan op jjn@b...: >Dear Jaran, I read with interest and appreciation your correspondance with a friend of us. It is wonderful that you have discussions on Dhamma during sutta study. And please share them with us, so that we can anumodana. Would you tell us which suttas you study? Our friend wrote: I'm currently translating the Sa~ncetanika Sutta (A. 10.206/5:292). N: Jaran, you found many sutta references, excellent. It takes a lot of searching to find the right suttas, more easy to find places in Abh and co!! Defilements are classified under different groups and in the suttas we find references like this: the five lower fetters (samyoyana) were eradicated. There are convenient lists in Vis XXII, 47-77. The English is sometimes confusing: such as ties: gantha. Now the sotapanna has eradicated three of the five lower fetters, orambhaagyiya sa.myojana, and these are sakkaaya di.t.thi, personality, clinging to rules and rituals and doubt. All kinds of wrong view and wrong practice are eradicated by the sotapanna. Also avarice and jealousy. You may find suttas on the lower fetters. You would have to explain what wrong practice is. People wonder about this, they just read about practice like a cow or dog. But, as you know, this is not all. A delicate subject! J: I can answer part of my questions: in addition to sakkaaya-ditthi and > vicikicchaa, the next defilement eradicated at sotaapattimagga-citta is the > siilabbatapramasa. Please advice the references. N: Another way: if you would look up in PED a defilement or group, they may give sutta references. Jaran, you are doing excellent work. I find it difficult to find sutta references now. Let me know how it goes, if I can I would like to help, but those who are clever at CD Rom searching may help better. About being free from stinginess, I remember in the suttas: he lives at home, openhanded, etc. But I cannot remember where. As to doubt: he has crossed over doubt. Or this wording, The dustless eye of dhamma arose: describes attaiment of sotapanna. Nina. > 25413 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] week 5 (Jul 7 02) No 8 Dear Jaran, Thank you. op 18-09-2003 09:42 schreef jaranoh op jjn@b...: > But panna must develop in > their order: if satipatthana does not begin to arise, there will not > be the distinction of naama and ruupa through the mind-door [naama- > ruupa-pariccheda~na.na]. It all starts from the arising of sati to be > aware of lakkha.na of one dhamma arising *now*. It happens naturally, > nothing out of ordinary. Like it or not, panna will arise [to truely > experience the actual dhamma] corresponding to our understanding. N:< to be aware of one dhamma... Like it or not panna will arise. > We do not have to pay attention to specific objects, sati and panna will arise by themselves when there are the right conditions. That is why, even when running for your life during military exercises, like Icaro, who can prevent panna from arising. It does its own work. We do not have to do anything special. Nina. 25414 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] defilements eradicated at stream-entry references, please Hi Jaran, --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear All: > > At stream-entry, sotaapatti-magga-citta, what defilements are > eradicated? Could you give me some referrence in the tipitaka, too, > please? .... I’m also rushed right now, but you might find these posts (Christine & Icaro) from UP helpful: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17758 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24298 ..... Ray , TG or others may be able to add more sutta references - I’m not sure if the Abhidamattha Sangaha would be acceptable? On sakkaya ditthi and ditthi, I wonder if any of the quotes would be helpful in the post I sent to Victor yesterday? In UP, if you look under Sakkaya ditthi and Wrong view, you’ll find more references too, I think. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Also, Nina’s book, ‘Cetasikas’ for the various mental factors involved like ditthi, issa (envy) amd macchariya (stinginess) for more details. Hope you can share more of your writing & research with us here and greatly appreciating your extracts and translation series. As you know, some of the commentaries are available in Thai and not in English, so it's always good to have any extra notes from these. Yes, daily life and living naturally. Having an idea of not fleeing the burning house would be unnatural! Likewise with our work and even with the daily chores for bhikkhus - not any impediment to ‘practice’ as I understand. This was in the last extract from Nina’s translation of the commentary to the Mahrahulavadasutta: “When the Buddha had gone, the venerable Sariputta would leave his lodging and consider: ‘When there are many monks in a dwelling place, not all of them may be able to make it agreeable.’ He would go around and sweep the places that had not been swept. When there was rubbish that was not thrown away, he threw it away. When there was no drinking water in the place where it should be set out, he placed a pot with drinking water. He went to visit the sick and asked: "Friend, what shall I bring you, what do you wish?" .... Daily life for Sariputta. I hope we’ll see you in Bkk end Oct, Jaran. Metta, Sarah ====== 25415 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] defilements eradicated at stream-entry references, please Dear Jaran, Also Buddhist dict by Ven Nyanatiloka gives suttas (it is transl into Thai), under samyoyana: A.IV, 67, 68, X.13, D 33. For A.IV: it means Book of the fours (catunipata). I have to go out now,I hope this helps, Nina. op 19-09-2003 04:31 schreef jaranoh op jaranoh@y...: > > At stream-entry, sotaapatti-magga-citta, what defilements are > eradicated? Could you give me some referrence in the tipitaka, too, > please? > 25416 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Training Precepts Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: You raise a number of very interesting and curious points in your post and it would be easy to dismiss them and overlook the textual support. I’m raising a few: H: > But time factor is not the same. Vinayawise, Vinaya in Buddha Gotama > time are the greatest in number. ( I apologise my not being able to > show evidence for this ). .... I’ve also seen references like this (Vinaya?) - and it being a reason for a Buddha’s teachings to last longer. I just can’t find the references and will be glad for any help. .... H: > There had been many many Buddhas. Time factor of Parinibbana of a > Buddha and arising of next Buddha is immence. Unimaginably long. As > far as we can reach accoding to History even in this earth, specific > time speaks its existence and the existences differ each other. .... There is a lot of helpful detail in the Buddhavamsa (Bv) and IB Horner’s intro to her translation. She quotes from the comy to DN: “Before our Lord’s aspiration was made the four Buddhas.....arose in one eon. This was followed by one incalculable world-period void of Buddhas. In the final eon of the inclaculable only one Buddha, named Kondanna, arose in that eon. thena gain there was an incalculable world-period void of Buddhas. ..............”and so it goes on for other Buddhas and other incalculables void of Buddhas. Only Metteyya will arise in the present eon. The ‘Miscellany on the Buddhas’ at the end of the Bv also gives all these details. As Horner pointed out in her introduction “this world of ours, which is but one world in the so called ten-thousand world-systm, has to be in a state of comparative harmony for Buddhas to arise and their message to be received and effective. they arise after they have succeeded in their determined endeavour, lasting for eons (as Bv makes abundantly clear), to fulfil the perfections to the third and highest degree. Time on a cosmic plane has to be allowed both for the enormously long period of self-preparation needed to win omniscience, and hence for the rare appeearance of Buddhas in the world.” She also explains how eons are divided into ‘Void eons’(su~n~nakappa), which is void of Buddhas, paccekabuddhas and universal monarchs and ‘Non-void eons’ (asu~n`nakappa) consisting of five classes to which the 28 Buddhas mentioned in Bv and BvA are assigned. In addition to the ‘tremendous periods of time involved, incalculable by computation and beyond all ways of reckoning’, we read in the Bv about Buddhas and their contemporaries living for hundreds and thousands of years. She gives a table for this and it also reminds me of some posts of Jim’s on this subject in the early DSG days which I’ve just found on this subject. (no need to comment, Jim;-)). He wrote: “According to DN XXVI, Cakkavatti-siihanaada-sutta, stealing first arose when the normal life span of humans was 80,000 years or less. So that means at least 17 of the last 25 Buddhas arose in a world where stealing was unknown. The sutta suggests that the next Buddha, Metteyya, will appear in a world when the normal human lifespan will be 80,000 years. It takes an intermediate period (antarakappa) for the human lifespan to decline from 100,000+ years down to 10 and back. 20 such periods make up 1 great aeon. I think it's generally understood that the current human condition is in a state of moral decline. Moral decline is the main contributor to the decline of the human lifespan.” He also gives some details about the lifespans of Buddhas and more interesting details about‘incalculables’ and ‘eons’ in these early posts: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m1076.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m1081.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m1082.html In the Cakkavatti-siihanaada Sutta, there is a wealth of interesting and relevant information on the decline of lifespans and of associated morality in general. .... H: > Within 2000 years, sexual orientation and view on it has changed a > lot. This is time factor. In the first 1000, even though there might > be abnormal sexual orientation, it was not so prevalent as today. > Today, some laws have to be passed. In the indefinite past, there > might have been a time when there is no gay. This can be reasoned out. > Regarding intoxicants, there also was a time when there was not any > intoxicant ( used as recreational purposes ). At that particular time > no one will drink alcohol as there might not have any form of > alcohol. Even if alcohol existed, as there was no previous practice, > no one would drink that strange smelling liquid. > > Before the era of telling lies, those who heard telling lies could > not understand what was the matter. Before that era, no one would try > to tell lies. And there are many other things to discuss on time > factors. .... I’d like to see more references relating to the present Buddha sasana in this regard. We know many of the Buddha's disciples lived to over 120 or 140 yrs(?).If you or anyone have anything further to add, it would be interesting. In the Cakkavatt-Siihanaada Sutta, we read about the reasons for the various declines including from 250 yrs to 100 yrs (not giving to the needy, lack of respect for parents, ascetics and heads of clans) and how there will be a lifespan of ten years in the future. I’m sure the purity at times of the long-living Buddhas is unimaginable to us today. I think ch X111 in Visuddhimagga on world cylcles is also relevant. It can also be found on line: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits069.htm We read about the reasons for the decline of worlds: “Why does the world perish in these particular ways? It is on account of the special wickedness that may be at bottom. For it is in accordance with the wickedness preponderating that the world perishes. When passion preponderates, it perishes by fire; when hatred, it perishes by water.--But some say that when hatred preponderates, it perishes by fire, and that when passion preponderates it perishes by water.--When infatuation preponderates, it perishes by wind.” We also read in this account reference to the start of stealing in world cycles: “Now when these beings eat this material food, the excrements are formed within them, and in order that they may relieve themselves, openings appear in their bodies, and the virility of the man, and the femininity of the woman. Then the woman begins to meditate excessively on the man, and the man on the woman, and as a result of this excessive meditation, the fever of lust springs up, and they have carnal connection. And being tormented by the reproofs of the wise for their low conduct, they build houses for its concealment. And having begun to dwell in houses, after a while they follow the example of some lazy one among themselves, and store up food. From that time on the red granules and the husks envelop the rice-grains, and wherever a crop has been mown down, it does not spring up again. Then these beings come together, and groan aloud, saying, "Alas! wickedness has sprung up among men; for surely we formerly were made of mind." The full account of this is to be supplied from the Discourse on Primitive Ages. Then they institute boundary lines, and one steals another's share.” ..... H: > When our Buddha Gotama arose as Buddha and soon followed by arising > of Arahats, The Buddha had not passed any Vinaya in His early time. > Because it was not needed at that time as all members of Sangha were > Arahats and all bhikkhus were Arahats. > > But as time passed by The Buddha had to pass down Vinaya by using > Buddha authority. Some Buddha even did not lay down any Vinaya as all > members of his followers including Sangha and all Puthujana people > did not do any ill-things and they would not do as long as that > Buddha stayed. All Sammasambuddha do have Sabbannuta Nana. All > Sammasambuddhas are the same in terms of Dhamma. .... I think this is right and ‘fits’ with the lengths of life-spans and other details Jim gave. Even now, it’s hard to imagine the general levels of dana, sila, jhana and then wisdom at the time of the Buddha compared to now, a relatively short time later in these terms. Some of this was touched on in the decline of the sasana thread as well. As you say the Dhamma and omniscience of the Buddhas is the same. Also from Vism, ch X111 on ‘world cycles’ and how the Buddhas would know all this detail about eons: “The Buddhas, however, do not need to make use of the succession of the groups, nor yet of the sequence of births and deaths. For any point which they choose to remember, throughout many times ten million world-cycles, becomes plain to them, and that in either direction. Thus they contract many times ten million world-cycles, as one would make an abridgment in a Pâli text, arriving at the desired point with the stride of a lion. Just as an arrow shot from the bow of a skilled archer, trained like Sarabhanga to shoot at a hair's breadth, goes straight to the mark, and is not caught in the way by any tree or plant, nor sticks fast, nor misses its aim, so the intellect of The Buddhas is not caught by any intervening birth, nor do they miss their aim, but go straight to the wished-for place.” .... > Among Sila matter, drinking alcohol per se is not an Akusala as > discussed in the previous post of this thread. But time factor speaks > and other factors like anatomy and physiology of Manussa at > particular time. > > At some time, intoxicant may rapidly change the mind of drinkers and > removes their controls over things. But at some time drinking alcohol > will not have any problem. .... This makes sense, but again I'd be curious to see references. .... H: > Main things is to advance forward in achievement of Dhamma. If > intoxicant hinders it, then it should be totally avoided. If it does > not hinder the practice like very very small amount of alcohol in > some food and some medicine, the practitioner of Dhamma should not > have any Kukkucca on that food and medicine. .... I agree, though when I was unknowingly given some medicine in alcohol a few years ago, I almost fainted and had to lie down in the clinic to recover;-) ... > May you all have a good insight into Dhamma. .... Thx Htoo for these comments. If you or anyone else finds additional relevant textual support, I’d be glad to see that too. Hoping you’re well and good to see you reading the posts;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 25417 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:07am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hello Howard, Ken, Rob, and Victor, Thank you all for your posts. My question, however, was not about moderation, extremism, common sense, judgmentalism, acting out, kidding ourselves, ritualistic precept-keeping or silabataparamasa. My question was about the downgrading of the importance of keeping a particular precept, turning it into a lifestyle choice. It was about why, when the Buddha used the same words in a sutta for abstaining from killing, abstaining from stealing, abstaining fromwrongful sexual conduct, abstaining from lying and abstaining from intoxicants, it should be deemed that the habitual and planned breaking of one precept should meet with justification and acceptance and not the others. There doesn't seem to be a rider to the sutta saying 'Well chaps, the first four are really really important, and oh, here's another one for any of you who think you could stand a bit of extra training this week.' What happened to seeing the danger in the slightest fault? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25418 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:44am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Dera Christine, I think i've missed something somewhere. I was replying to Ken's letter but I didn't see any posts where anyone is saying drinking alcohol is not akusala? Nina refered to lodewijk drinking some wine with some of his meals. She said this is akusala but noted that it is not as strong akusala as if someone drinks to get drunk. I take it we all accept that. The person she referred to who said one sip of even a beeris akusala kammapatha was myself. I wrote about this a couple of years ago. And there was a discusion at the foundation about this. Ajahn Sujin pointed out that the sotapanna can never drink alcohol deliberately but if I remember rightly said that drinking with the intent to get drunk is worse than having a drink for the taste. There was mention too of the vinaya where there is a passage about whether monks are allowed to take medicine if it has any alcohol in it. I think someone said they could if the amount of alcohol was very minimal , but someone would have to check? It is also like killing. If one really enjoys killing it is worse than if one kills out of self- defense say. It always depends on the mindstate when doing any deed. Many degrees and we can't always pinpoint. Of course it is clear in many texts that drinking alcohol is akusala. one example: In the kuddakatapatha by Buddhaghosa (translated as Minor readings PTS by nanamoli). on p24 -25 it notes that the blamableness of an action varies according to its degree. " But unlike killing, drinking is always greatly blamable. Why? because it obstructs the ariyan Dhamma by inducing even madness in a human being". It does note however if one gets very drunk to the point of doing bad things this is the worst. Still there are exampes like Sarakanni who left the order of monks and became an alcoholic . He still came to listen to the Dhamma during his sober intervals. But died with stench of alochol strong on his breath. Some monks were outraged when the Buddha proclamined him to have become a sotapanna at the moment of death and now in the deva world . But this was by conditions he accumulated good and bad deeds. And especially he must have seen deeply into conditionality so that the idea of self was eradicated, as ken was pointing too. Strong insight can be developing that does not always show itself to outside observation. RobertK p32 "the fruits of abstaining from the opportunity for negilgence due to wine or liquor are such things as quick recognition of past, future and present tasks to be done, constant establishment of mindfulness, possession of knowledge, non-stupidty, non-drivelingness,,,non-confusion, non-timorousness, non-presumption, uneviousness, truthfulness, freedom from malicious and harsh speech and from gossip, freedom from dullness day and night, gratitude, libearlty, possesion of conscience, great understanding, rectitude of view, skill in distinguishing skill from unskill, and so on"END QUOTE. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Howard, Ken, Rob, and Victor, > > Thank you all for your posts. My question, however, was not about > moderation, extremism, common sense, judgmentalism, acting out, > kidding ourselves, ritualistic precept-keeping or silabataparamasa. > My question was about the downgrading of the importance of keeping a > particular precept, turning it into a lifestyle choice. It was about > why, when the Buddha used the same words in a sutta for abstaining > from killing, abstaining from stealing, abstaining fromwrongful > sexual conduct, abstaining from lying and abstaining from > intoxicants, it should be deemed that the habitual and planned > breaking of one precept should meet with justification and > acceptance and not the others. There doesn't seem to be a rider to > the sutta saying 'Well chaps, the first four are really really > important, and oh, here's another one for any of you who think you > could stand a bit of extra training this week.' What happened to > seeing the danger in the slightest fault? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25419 From: ajahn_paul Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:41am Subject: Spirit out of body? @.@ Some ppl r discussing [spirit going out of body] in some chinese newsgroup. i dont beleive this and i even dont want to discuss on this useless topic in the first place. But ppl seems getting interest and moving out of the Buddhism's track. >.< Does any of you know any dhamma concerning on this topic? Thanks! ^^ 25420 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: Pali language Dear Suan, I have the same attitude in learning languages. When we read some suttas which are not too difficult and we have studied the Co, I agree, the sutta in Pali goes straight to the heart, a very effective reminder for satipatthana now. Other suttas may be more difficult, we need more study. I always find that the English translation does not do justice to the Pali, it is a loss. But we work with it, because Pali is difficult for us. Take this one: Sam. IV, XXXV, 107: Loko. Lokassa bhikkhave samudaya~nca atthagama~n ca desissaami ta.m su.naatha. Katamo ca bhikkhave lokassa samudayo Cakkhu~nca pa.ticca ruupe ca uppajjati cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m.... Owing to eye and objects arises eye-consciousness. This is always now. Nina. op 18-09-2003 16:38 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > 3. Use English like native speakers do - speak, read, write and dream > in English. > > The above atitudes are also transferred to dealing with Pali language. > > Needless to say, I find it most enjoyable to read Pali like a native > speaker would. 25421 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:59am Subject: Vis. Tiika 14, second section Tiika 14, second section : Relevant text Vis. 14: And this is said: 'Herein, what is understanding consisting in what is reasoned? In the spheres of work invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires without hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is reasoned. ' (In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt (heard). 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development. "tattha katamaa cintaamayaa pa~n~naa? "yogavihitesu vaa kammaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa sippaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa vijjaa.t.thaanesu kammassakata.m vaa saccaanulomika.m vaa ruupa.m aniccanti vaa vedanaa...pe0... sa~n~naa. sa"nkhaaraa. vi~n~naa.na.m aniccanti vaa, ya.m evaruupi.m anulomika.m khanti.m di.t.thi.m ruci.m muti.m pekkha.m dhammanijjhaanakhanti.m parato assutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati cintaamayaa pa~n~naa...pe0... sutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati sutamayaa pa~n~naa. "sabbaapi samaapannassa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti" ***** Tiika 14, second section, skipping the first part about understanding regarding the spheres of work, science, etc. (almost the same as Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch 16, 2073, p. 157): kammassakatanti ``ida.m kamma.m sattaana.m saka.m, ida.m no saka''nti eva.m jaanana~naa.na.m. As to the words, ownership of kamma, this is the understanding of ³This action is owned by beings, that one is not². saccaanulomikanti vipassanaa~naa.na.m. As to the words, what is in conformity with truth, this is insight knowledge. ta.m hi saccapa.tivedhassa anulomanato ``saccaanulomika''nti vuccati. That is called in comformity with truth, because of comformity with the penetration of the truth. idaanissa pavattanaakaara.m dassetu.m ``ruupa.m aniccanti vaa''tiaadi vutta.m. Now in order to show the way it occurs, it is said, materiality is impermanent, or... and so on. tattha vaa-saddena aniyamatthena dukkhaanattalakkha.naanipi gahitaanevaati da.t.thabba.m naanantariyakabhaavato. Here with the indefinite word ³or² also the characteristics of dukkha and non-self are thus taken and should be understood, although not handed down. ya.m hi anicca.m, ta.m dukkha.m. ya.m dukkha.m, tadanattaati. What is impermanent is dukkha. What is dukkha is non-self, has been said. ya.m evaruupinti ya.m eva.m he.t.thaa niddi.t.thasabhaava.m. The words, ³or is of such kind², refer to the characteristic that is thus described above *. anulomika.m khantintiaadiini pa~n~naavevacanaani. Conformable acceptance and so on are synonyms for understanding. saa hi he.t.thaa vuttaana.m kammaayatanaadiina.m apaccaniikadassanena anulomanato, For that is in conformity since it shows non-opposition to the spheres of work and so on, which were explained above.** tathaa sattaana.m hitacariyaaya maggasaccassa, paramatthasaccassa, nibbaanassa ca avilomanato anulometiiti anulomikaa. Likewise, it is in comformity since it comforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it comforns to the Truth of the Path, and to the highest truth, namely nibbana. ***** English: As to the words, ownership of kamma, this is the understanding of ³This action is owned by beings, that one is not². As to the words, what is in conformity with truth, this is insight knowledge. That is called in comformity with truth, because of comformity with the penetration of the truth. Now in order to show the way it occurs, it is said, materiality is impermanent, or... and so on. Here with the indefinite word ³or² also the characteristics of dukkha and non-self are thus taken and should be understood, although not handed down. What is impermanent is dukkha. What is dukkha is non-self, has been said. The words, ³or is of such kind², refer to the characteristic that is thus described above *. Conformable acceptance and so on are synonyms for understanding. For that is in conformity since it shows non-opposition to the spheres of work and so on, which were explained above.** Likewise, it is in comformity since it comforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it comforns to the Truth of the Path, and to the highest truth, namely nibbana. ----------- * This refers to understanding, as we read in the Visuddhimagga: ³or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent..² ** We read in the Visuddhimagga: . The Dispeller of Delusion explains that a wise man invents things for people¹s confort, such as dwellings, tools for ploughing, sorts of science, etc. This is wisdom with regard to worldly matters. Thus, there is wisdom in behaviour beneficial to beings, and higher degrees of understanding, namely: understanding of the Path, and the realization of nibbana. 25422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Dear Howard and Ken, op 19-09-2003 02:14 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Howard quotes Ken: >> By their nature, rules of training potentially give a >> false impression. By observing the five precepts, laymen >> who are worldlings, act out the lifestyle of laymen who >> are sotapannas; By observing the rules of Vinaya, monks >> who are not arahants, act out the lifestyle of arahants. > Howard: > I think that the most important point here may be that of internality > versus externality. When we make the precepts a part of ourselves, and not > mere actions, then we have truly "taken the precepts". It's what's in the mind > that is critical. Recall the Dhammapada's statement that "Mind is the > forerunner > of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they." Nina: Howard, you wrote what I just tried to explain in Pali list about the benefit of the Vinaya and satipatthana, that these should go together. I quote part: It goes for laypeople also with regard to the precepts: through satipatthana observing them can come from within, more naturally. Mind is the forerunner. That is why even satipatthana is classified under sila, as we see in the Visuddhimagga. I think that was what Ken meant when he said: it can be like acting out, thus, it is merely outward observing. The monks lead the life of an arahat, but they know that they are not perfect. They confess to each other their transgressions, and they forgive each other. But the rules help them to know themselves. And also, they should be an example to laypeople. It is not acting as if, acting out, but the Visuddhimagga, in the Ch on sila, also gives examples of insincere conduct. The monk should not meditate in public, hoping that laypeople shall become more generous to him because of it. Nina. 25423 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. op 18-09-2003 00:40 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Larry quotes: > Nina: "Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, when the > duration of rupa is compared to that of citta. Or, counting three > sub-moments of each citta as: arising moment, moments of presence and > moment of falling away, rupa lasts as long as fiftyone submoments of > citta." L: > In the above you are referring to the rupa that disturbs the bhavanga, > not the rupa that impinges on the sensitive matter of the sense base, > correct? Aren't these two different rupas? N: The duration concerns all rupas which are concrete matter. The rupa that has impinged on one of the sensebases (eye, ear, bodysense, which are extremely tiny, smaller than a needle point) first disturbs the bhavanga and then a process is set in motion. Impingement, sensitive matter, we should not confuse these notions with the way we use these in conventional language. Just now it seems that we see, hear and experience tangible object all at the same time. But in reality only one citta experiences one object. Bodysense is all over the body, but only one extremely tiny point is the place where a tangible object impinges, and on account of this a process of cittas which experience that object can arise. Not two points at the same time are impinged on. Cittas are so very fast and we have the illusion that there can be more than one experience at a time. All this can be proven by satipatthana, by awareness of one object at a time. Nina. 25424 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Dear Howard, op 17-09-2003 21:07 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Howard quotes from Nina: Right livelihood: a >> virati cetasika abstains from wrong livelihood at certain moments. >> When lokuttara citta arises the object of the three abstinences is not a >> person, it is nibbana. The conditions for wrong speech, action, livelihood >> are cut off, in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is attained. >> Thus: nibbana is experienced and conditions for akusala are eradicated. At >> the same time. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, okay. What you describe here seem to be "mind movements" quite > like intentions/inclinations/acts of volition. But, in any case, this sense of > 'right livelihood' appears to be radically differnt from what the Buddha gives > in the suttas, where lists of wrong choices of livelihood are given. Nowhere > have I come across anything like this in the suttas. Is it not possible that, > relative to the suttas, the Abhidhamma is being "innovative" here, contrary to > the idea expressed by some that there is nothing in Abhidhamma does not > already occur in the suttas? N: The Buddha gave in the suttas examples, occasions where one could transgress, such as selling alcohol. But, in all of the teachings the essence is: know the citta, be aware of the citta, citta with virati cetasika abstains. In the Book of Analysis, second book of the Abh. there are also many examples of wrongdoing, insincerity etc. When these are committed for the sake of livelihood (for the monk: to obtain things) they are wrong livelihood. Ch 17, § 851: A long list:he is pretending to be better than one is. §862: This is Abhidhamma! Many examples, with the aim: know the citta, citta is the forerunner.The teaching in Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma is one. ________ > Howard: >..... But I don't see how that answers the > question about the assertion "The fruition-consciousness experiences nibbana > and > the defilements that were to be eradicated at that stage ..." seeming to > allowfor multiple objects for fruition consciousness. I apologize for pressing > this, but I still find this issue unresolved. N: I do not see a problem concerning fruition-consciousness which is vipakacitta experiencing nibbana, but I would understand it if your question pertained to Path-consciousness. I shall quote now Vis. XXII, 92,< The four functions in a single moment. Now at the times of penetrating to the truth each one of the four [path] knowledges is said to exercise four functions in a single moment. These are: full understanding, abandoning, realizing and developing... For this is said by the Ancients 'Just as a lamp performs four functions simultaneously in a single moment-it burns the wick, dispels darkness, makes light appear, and uses up the oil- so too, path knowledge penetrates the four truths simultaneously in a single moment- it penetrates to suffering by penetrating to it with full understanding, penetrates to origination by penetrating to it with abandoning, penetrates to the path by penetrating to it with developing and penetrates to cessation by penetrating to it with realizing. What is meant? By making cessation [N:nibbana] its object it reaches, sees and pierces the four truths.> Nina. 25425 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Victor - In a message dated 9/18/03 9:18:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Erratum: > > "How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, > if one has to kill when the required conditions arise?" > > should read > > "How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, possible > if one has to kill when the required conditions arise?" > > ======================= And the answer (to the correct formulation) is: It's not; it's a violation. But life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. As I said, killing a scorpion about to sting a child would be a violation of the precept, but it is an action I believe I would take if there were no other recourse, and it is an action which I think is the more moral of the two choices a) Do nothing and b) Kill the scorpion, but it is action that would be very mentally painful to me. I *think* I would take the action, though I find a terribly strong repugnance at the thought of doing so. Obviously, if I could simply remove either the scorpion (to where it would do no further harm) or the child (to safety), that would be a far better choice. Tell me, Victor, if a rabid dog were attacking yourself or a relative or a friend or even a stranger, and if you had the means to kill the dog, *and no other means to save the victim*, what would you do? Would it be a violation of the precept to kill the dog? Sure would be! Would it be the "wrong" thing to do? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25426 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/19/03 2:02:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > >Howard: > >..... But I don't see how that answers the > >question about the assertion "The fruition-consciousness experiences > nibbana > >and > >the defilements that were to be eradicated at that stage ..." seeming to > >allowfor multiple objects for fruition consciousness. I apologize for > pressing > >this, but I still find this issue unresolved. > N: I do not see a problem concerning fruition-consciousness which is > vipakacitta experiencing nibbana, but I would understand it if your question > pertained to Path-consciousness. > ======================== Thank you for the detailed reply. With regard to what seem to be multiple objects of fruition consciousness, I am referring to nibbana being one object and the three defilements/fetters that were to be eradicated at stream entry being others. That gives a total of four objects, it would seem. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25427 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Howard, ---------- H. > This is an interesting observation, Ken. It reminds me of (is it St. Augustine's?) "Imitation of Christ" and Judaism's "Be holy, for I, the Eternal, thy God, am holy." ---------- Yes, that's the interesting thing: Superficially, the Dhamma sounds like other teachings. How is it different and what is the importance of that difference? With all due respect to the other great teachers in history, they simply hadn't seen, with insight, the conditioned and the unconditioned realities. When we gain a little understanding of those absolute realities, we see how the Dhamma is unique. -------------- H. > Possibly, acting "as if" tends to cultivate the actuality. > Sometimes useful habits can be created by such imitative actions. > ------------- This is a reasonable suggestion but it doesn't take into account the uniqueness of the Dhamma. Rob M also makes a good argument for what you have said; he refers to "habit condition" as found (I think) in the Abhidhamma. But which habits will condition kusala? Does the habit of 'imitating kusala' condition kusala or does it condition more imitation? -------------- H. > When we make the precepts a part of ourselves, and not mere actions, then we have truly "taken the precepts". It's what's in the mind that is critical. > -------------- That sounds right, although I haven't read much about taking precepts and I've never engaged in any ceremony of that kind. We don't need a Tathagata to teach us precepts. Jesus and St Augustine, the much maligned Jains and countless others all taught perfectly good precepts and many followers sincerely observe them (make them a part of themselves). But precepts don't destroy kilesas. As Robert K said; in a future life, (or maybe later in this life), our strongest resolutions may be forgotten and we will be back where we started. So, essentially, all those praiseworthy precepts might as well be meaningless rites and rituals; They don't get us out of samsara. It is only when we study nama and rupa that, as Rob K said, our clinging to mere rite and ritual is uncovered. Then we see that the similarity to St Augustine and Co., is purely superficial. Kind regards, Ken H 25428 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:21pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > That is why uncovering silabataparamasa - by learning to study nama > and rupa- is the way it can be attentuated so that genuine insight which > will eradicate the conditions for breaking any precepts is a most > profitable area for right effort. ---------------- Thanks Robert, I like the way you say that the study of nama and rupa 'uncovers silabataparamasa.' We know the Buddha didn't teach the efficacy of rite and ritual but it's hard to know how his Dhamma is different. So, despite our protestations to the contrary, we cling to rite and ritual. Only when we learn about nama and rupa is our silabataparamasa uncovered. Kind regards, Ken H 25429 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:23pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Victor, Yikes, you seem to have found fault with every word I wrote! :-) ----------- V. > Who is kidding him or herself that he or she wouldn't kill his or her own next-of-kin if the required conditions were to arise? What required conditions are you talking about? How is keeping the first precept, refraining from killing, if one has to kill when the required conditions arise? > ----------- Here, I think you have genuinely misunderstood me. I don't want to suggest hypothetical situations in which you might kill your own parents or wife or anyone. But, with a little imaginative thinking, you'll see how you might, in some extreme circumstances, feel compelled to do the unthinkable. That's all I was saying. --------------- V. > Isn't abstaining from killing, from taking what is not given, from lying, from sexual misconducts, from alcohol and drug itself wholesome? > ----------------- Yes, but there is no control over these things. First, there has to be the opportunity to break the precepts, then there has to be abstention (with adosa and alobha). Most of the time, we only think there is opportunity; most of the time we act out of lobha, dosa and moha and we think, "Look, I'm doing good!" Either way (breaking, non-breaking, getting it right, getting it wrong), we only think we have control over over these things. Apart from the five khandhas, there is no actor who acts and no thinker who thinks. Furthermore, with or without the illusion of such entities, there can never be any control over conditions. But there I go again with those "views" you object to so much :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25430 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. Tiika 14, second section Hi Nina, I am understanding this as saying there are three kinds of understanding as reasoning, learning from another, and jhana. All the insight knowledges are reasoned. Is this how you see it? Are "learning" and "having attained jhana" also concerned with individual and general characteristics but not on the level of insight? Larry 25431 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Nina, I still don't understand. Is the sensitive matter of sense bases different from the bhavanga stream? What is the function of this sensitive matter? Larry 25432 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Ken, Is keeping the first precept possible in extreme circumstances? Do you think if one should keep the first precept in extreme circumstances? Perhaps I am not imaginative enough, but I don't see there is any circumstance in which I have to kill anyone. If you do see such circumstance with your imagination, what would it be? Are you saying that with required condition, one has to kill? If one has to kill given required condition, then how is refraining from killing possible, how is keeping the first precept possible? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 25433 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Howard Thanks for your detailed reply. I am responding just on your first comment, and have snipped the rest. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would suspect that concentrating on various objects that > are > common-sensically either kusala or neutral (such as various sounds) > leads to calm, > ease, and the absence of opposing features. Concentrating intently > on lustful > thoughts or vengeful thoughts or intentions etc, however, while > generating > energy, are unlikely to engender calm. > ------------------------------------------------------- I think you are saying that if one concentrates on the right kind of object (a 'kusala' object) for long enough, the mind-state will become calm and then kusala. I'm sure this is a commonly held view. So far as the teachings are concerned, however, we should remember that there is no such thing as kusala or akusala objects, only kusala or akusala mind-states; nor is it said that merely concentrating on the 'right object' leads (via calm) to kusala mind-states. There are of course certain objects (the 40) that are *capable of* supporting the development of tranquillity to the level of access or absorption concentration (jhana), but that is quite a different thing from saying that concentration on those objects will lead to calm and to kusala citta. As I understand it, we cannot 'think' our way to kusala by the choice of a particular object of thought. Wrong view, for one thing, is always ready to intervene and lead the thinking astray. So if a person does develop concentration on one of the 40 objects in the (mistaken) belief that this will somehow lead to kusala mind-states, the ensuing concentration is unlikely to be kusala (and hence would be akusala, although this would not be apparent to the person at the time). Mere concentration on one of the 40 objects of meditation does not satisfy the conditions for the development of kusala, which are principally (a) useful reflection, prompted or supported by hearing words that are appropriate to one's present stage of development and readiness to receive, and (b) one's previously accumulated tendencies for kusala. I am aware that personal experience can appear to give a different conclusion, i.e., that personal experience seems to confirm that focussed concentration on an object leads to calm. But is this apparent calm truly the calm of kusala? Unless a person has previously developed an understanding of the difference between the kusala and akusala moments as they arise naturally in daily life (as of course they do for everyone) there is simply no way that true calm can be sorted out from subtle attachment accompanied by slight pleasant feeling or neutral feeling (for example, a gentle lulling effect). The 'jhana' we read about in the suttas is of course the jhana that is the outcome of the development of samatha, but this requires first and foremost the development of kusala (and its associated concentration), not simply the development of concentration per se. I believe this is supported by the quote you give in your message: > [First jhana] > "There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture > and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and > evaluation. This suggests to me that the absence of unskilful qualities (i.e., the presence of kusala) must precede the attainment of jhana. Jon 25434 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry (and Howard) (Larry, I meant to include you in my post to Howard of a minute ago. Sorry) I would like to go back a step and look at the factors that lead to the development of concentration, i.e., the factors that support consciousness in taking the same object repeatedly. This is a subject we have discussed on a number of occasions previously. Below is a passage on this subject from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha that I came across recently in CMA, and also the commentary translation from STA on the same part of the text. Of interest is that, although called 'jhana' factors, they apply to the development of concentration at any level (i.e., for anyone). Note that none of the factors is exclusively a kusala factor (and indeed, one of them is an exclusively akusala factor). To me this suggests that there is no *necessary* link between concentration and kusala, even though in our experience concentration *seems* to lead to a calming of the mind. Larry, you say, "My view is that jhana is clearly Right Concentration." There are certainly grounds for asserting that Right Concentration is jhana, since there are passages in the suttas describing Right Concentration (as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path) in terms of the 4 jhanas. But I don't think the reverse can be said, i.e., that jhana is Right Concentration. Likewise, it's true that as long as samatha is being developed the necessary concentration for jhana is also being developed, but again the reverse is not true, i.e., that the development of concentration leads to kusala. Jon ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CMA Chapter VII - Compendium of Categories Compendium of Mixed Categories #16 Jhaana Factors The seven jhaana factors: (1) initial application, (2) sustained application, (3) zest, (4) one-pointedness, (5) joy, (6) displeasure, (7) equanimity. [vitakka, vicaara, piiti, ekaggataa, somanassa, domanassa, upekkhaa] Guide to #16 The word 'jhaana' is not used here in the sense of meditative absorption, but in the broader sense of close contemplation (upanijjhaayana) of an object. Therefore the states listed here are considered jhaana factors even when they occur outside a meditative framework. These seven cetasikas are called jhaana factors because they enable the mind to closely contemplate its object. Of them, displeasure is exclusively unwholesome and occurs only in the two cittas connected with aversion [dosa]. The other six can be wholesome, unwholesome, or indeterminate, depending on the citta in which they occur. STA The miscellaneous collection [Commentary] The jhaana factors (jhaananga) are jhaana in the sense of contemplating (upanijjhaayana), understood as considering, the object [of consciousness] once they have approached it, and in the sense of burning up (jhaapana) their respective opposing dhammas. And these are also the limbs (anga) that walk (angiiyati) or progress by being the components of the assembled items. And while there is no whole apart from its components, like the parts (anga) of an army or of a chariot, which are so called by their being the separate parts [of the whole], [the jhaana-factors] are [such] because together they constitute jhaana. Herein unhappiness is an unwholesome jhaana factor; the rest are wholesome, unwholesome and undetermined jhaana factors. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --- Larry wrote: > Hi Jon, > > My view is that jhana is clearly Right Concentration. I don't know > what the official definition of "right" is but I would think it > includes all the path factors. So even though none of the jhana > factors are exclusively wholesome all of the path factors are > assumed > as 'context'. > > Additionally, I don't see why a mantra couldn't be an object of > right > concentration as long as it was elemental or wholesome. What's the > difference between a sound and a color (colour). > > On another tack, I would say all 40 objects of jhana are mantra > insofar as they are repititious vitakka and vicara. However, > traditionally, mantra is sanskrit only and not necessarily used to > develop one pointed concentration, nor is it necessarily wholesome. > > Larry 25435 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 5:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Howard, No, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I completely agree with you. It is precisely because life is not a simple, singular phenomenon, it is possible to save the child from scorpion without killing. In other word, if, for some reason, you were in the situation where a scorpion is about to sting a child, you wouldn't be left with only two choices: 1)Do nothing or 2)Save the child by killing the scorpion. In fact, you just listed two more choices: 3) remove either the scorpion to where it would do no further harm, or 4) remove the child to safety. And choice 3) and choice 4) are not only better than choice 1) and choice 2). They are smarter. Now you are setting me up in the rabid dog situation, assuming the only way to save the victim is to kill the rabid dog. What if I don't accept that assumption at all? Like you said, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I agree with that! Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - [snip] 25436 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I'm not sure what your point is, but I agree virtue (sila) is necessary for the development of the path. Are you saying something more than that? Larry 25437 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hello Victor and Howard, I don't think ANYONE knows what they would REALLY do in extreme circumstances. Lets hope I never have to decide what to do if a rabid koala tries to get my elderly mother, or a platypus aims its poisonous hind spur at SarahF ... I'll deal with it at that time, and consequences be damned! But getting back to real life ... which consists of living in rather boring humdrum situations.... the Precepts are part of this everyday life. The Buddha set the foundation of the ethical life of lay people firmly on these short simple clear straightforward Training Rules. Minimising any of them, looking for loopholes, or deciding in advance to bend them, doesn't bode well for whatever structure one hopes to build on that foundation, don't you think? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > No, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I completely agree > with you. It is precisely because life is not a simple, singular > phenomenon, it is possible to save the child from scorpion without > killing. In other word, if, for some reason, you were in the > situation where a scorpion is about to sting a child, you wouldn't > be left with only two choices: 1)Do nothing or 2)Save the child by > killing the scorpion. In fact, you just listed two more choices: 3) > remove either the scorpion to where it would do no further harm, or > 4) remove the child to safety. And choice 3) and choice 4) are not > only better than choice 1) and choice 2). They are smarter. > > Now you are setting me up in the rabid dog situation, assuming the > only way to save the victim is to kill the rabid dog. What if I > don't accept that assumption at all? > > Like you said, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I agree > with that! > > Peace, > Victor 25438 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry Thanks for the succinct comment and direct question ;-)) --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I'm not sure what your point is, but I agree virtue (sila) is > necessary > for the development of the path. Are you saying something more than > that? > > Larry All kusala is supportive of the development of the path. Sila is, by nature/definition, kusala and so of course is included. Concentration, on the other hand, is not kusala by nature/definition, it is either kusala or akusala, depending on the nature of the moment of consciousness. What, then, is the development of concentration that is kusala (only)? Jon 25439 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:12pm Subject: Re: Spirit out of body? @.@ Hello Paul, Good to read you again! :-) Did you get to see Sara, Jon and RobM when he visited HK the other week? You chaps should keep in closer contact. :-) I don't know anything much about being outside the body .. sounds a bit like Astral Travelling. However, in an article called "The mind- body relationship in Pali Buddhism: A philosophical investigation" by Peter Havery, there is a bit about The Mind-made Body and also about Psychic Powers. Scroll down towards the foot of the article. http://www.buddhismtoday.com/english/philosophy/thera/014-mind- body_relationship.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ajahn_paul" wrote: > Some ppl r discussing [spirit going out of body] in some chinese > newsgroup. i dont beleive this and i even dont want to discuss on > this useless topic in the first place. But ppl seems getting > interest and moving out of the Buddhism's track. >.< > > Does any of you know any dhamma concerning on this topic? > Thanks! ^^ 25440 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Ken/Howard In a message dated 9/19/03 5:17:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ---------- > H. >This is an interesting observation, Ken. It reminds > me of (is it St. Augustine's?) "Imitation of Christ" and > Judaism's "Be holy, for I, the Eternal, thy God, am > holy." > ---------- > > Yes, that's the interesting thing: Superficially, the > Dhamma sounds like other teachings. How is it different > and what is the importance of that difference? > > With all due respect to the other great teachers in > history, they simply hadn't seen, with insight, the > conditioned and the unconditioned realities. When we > gain a little understanding of those absolute realities, > we see how the Dhamma is unique. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't for a second dispute the difference between the Dhamma and the teachings of other traditions. My point is only that it is common to recommend the imitation of goodness. -------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > H. >Possibly, acting "as if" tends to cultivate the > actuality. > >Sometimes useful habits can be created by such > imitative actions. > > ------------- > > This is a reasonable suggestion but it doesn't take into > account the uniqueness of the Dhamma. Rob M also makes > a good argument for what you have said; he refers to > "habit condition" as found (I think) in the Abhidhamma. > But which habits will condition kusala? Does the habit > of 'imitating kusala' condition kusala or does it > condition more imitation? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That, I think, would depend on other conditions. ------------------------------------------------ > > -------------- > H. >When we make the precepts a part of ourselves, and > not mere actions, then we have truly "taken the > precepts". It's what's in the mind that is critical. > > -------------- > > That sounds right, although I haven't read much about > taking precepts and I've never engaged in any ceremony of > that kind. We don't need a Tathagata to teach us > precepts. Jesus and St Augustine, the much maligned > Jains and countless others all taught perfectly good > precepts and many followers sincerely observe them (make > them a part of themselves). But precepts don't destroy > kilesas. As Robert K said; in a future life, (or maybe > later in this life), our strongest resolutions may be > forgotten and we will be back where we started. > > So, essentially, all those praiseworthy precepts might as > well be meaningless rites and rituals; They don't get us > out of samsara. It is only when we study nama and rupa > that, as Rob K said, our clinging to mere rite and ritual > is uncovered. Then we see that the similarity to St > Augustine and Co., is purely superficial. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course the precepts don't destroy defilements. But they can weaken them, and they can lead to calm, which, in turn supports concentration. The Buddha did include the precepts as part of the practice for good reason. -------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25441 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Victor - In a message dated 9/19/03 8:21:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > No, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I completely agree > with you. It is precisely because life is not a simple, singular > phenomenon, it is possible to save the child from scorpion without > killing. In other word, if, for some reason, you were in the > situation where a scorpion is about to sting a child, you wouldn't > be left with only two choices: 1)Do nothing or 2)Save the child by > killing the scorpion. In fact, you just listed two more choices: 3) > remove either the scorpion to where it would do no further harm, or > 4) remove the child to safety. And choice 3) and choice 4) are not > only better than choice 1) and choice 2). They are smarter. > > Now you are setting me up in the rabid dog situation, assuming the > only way to save the victim is to kill the rabid dog. What if I > don't accept that assumption at all? > > Like you said, life is not a simple, singular phenomenon. I agree > with that! > > Peace, > Victor > ============================ I think it is clear that each of us would always look for the choice that is most benefical and harmless. I would attempt solutions 3 or 4 for the scorpion as would you, and I would attempt an alternative to killing the rabid dog, as would you. the question remains as to what is the optimally moral thing to do when the alternatives are *not* available. The question is: Are the precepts training rules, or are they context-independent, absolutisms? Obviously I think the former. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25442 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/19/03 9:05:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Victor and Howard, > > I don't think ANYONE knows what they would REALLY do in extreme > circumstances. Lets hope I never have to decide what to do if a > rabid koala tries to get my elderly mother, or a platypus aims its > poisonous hind spur at SarahF ... I'll deal with it at that time, and > consequences be damned! But getting back to real life ... which > consists of living in rather boring humdrum situations.... the > Precepts are part of this everyday life. The Buddha set the > foundation of the ethical life of lay people firmly on these short > simple clear straightforward Training Rules. Minimising any of them, > looking for loopholes, or deciding in advance to bend them, doesn't > bode well for whatever structure one hopes to build on that > foundation, don't you think? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. I do recommend observing the precepts to the best of one's ability. (For disclaimers, see my previous posts. ;-) ------------------------------------------ > > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25443 From: Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "What, then, is the development of concentration that is kusala (only)?" Hi Jon, Ah! Now I get it. What makes it jhana (kusala) is relinquishment, less is better. I'm sure there is a more eloquent and detailed way of saying it, but I think this sums it up. Ironically, a rather high degree of tenacity is necessary to develop one pointed concentration on anything, including letting-go, but sometimes it just happens. [Just guessing here.] How do you see it? Larry 25444 From: Andrew Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 9:34pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Dear All This has been such a busy thread, I can't resist making a few comments. As I see it, the precepts are part of the Raft - you need wisdom to decide when to pick them up and when to abandon them. They are "abandonable" and that's why they are called mere training rules. If they were not "abandonable", they would be absolutisms which, in some circumstances, would lead to wrong action. There are some interesting Zen stories about some of those circumstances ... but that's for another list, isn't it. The primary point of all this is that the most important question is not "have I followed the precepts" but "have I been wise". Buddha told the dog ascetic that, if he continued behaving like a dog, he would be reborn in the company of dogs. He tells us that, if we follow the precepts, we can expect a pleasant or favourable rebirth. But there is no guarantee that me in my favourable rebirth will pass into the Deathless before the dog ascetic does. And indeed, the Buddha warns that, if my following of the precepts turns into clinging to mere rules and rituals, this will be a fetter to my Release. Having been schooled in a non-Buddhist tradition in which prayers and rituals were rote-learned and could be recited half asleep, my personal inclination is against turning over rules in my head until they become meaningless. I prefer to try and take every situation as it arises and apply wise attention to what's going on. But everyone is different and I can quite easily imagine another person memorising the precepts in a useful manner. Metta, Andrew 25445 From: connie Date: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:24pm Subject: Re: Training precepts Dear Htoo and Sarah, S: You raise a number of very interesting and curious points in your post and it would be easy to dismiss them and overlook the textual support. I'm raising a few: H: > But time factor is not the same. Vinayawise, Vinaya in Buddha Gotama > time are the greatest in number. ( I apologise my not being able to > show evidence for this ). .... S: I've also seen references like this (Vinaya?) - and it being a reason for a Buddha's teachings to last longer. I just can't find the references and will be glad for any help. .... C: maybe this? Mike Olds - BuddhaDust.org The First Rule Adopted From the Vinaya-Pitaka, The Book of the Discipline, Volume I, (Suttavibhanga), PTS, I.B. Horner, trans. Now while the venerable Sariputta had gone into seclusion for meditation, this thought arose in his mind: "Of which enlightened ones, of which lords did the Brahma-life last long?" Then the venerable Sariputta, rising up at evening time from his meditation, came up to the Bhagava and having come up he greeted him and sitting to one side, the venerable Sariputta related the thought that he had had during his meditation. "Sariputta, while Vipassin was Buddha, while Sikhin was Buddha, and while Vessabhu was Buddha the Brahma-life did not last long. Sariputta, while Kakusandha was Buddha and while Konagamana was Buddha and while Kassapa was Buddha the Brahma-life lasted long." "Sariputta, the Buddha Vipassin and the Buddha Sikhin and the Buddha Vessabhu were idle in preaching dhamma in detail to the disciples; and these had few Suttas in prose or in prose and verse, Expositions, Songs, Verses of Uplift, Quotations, Jatakas, Miracles, Miscellanies; the course of training for the disciples was not made known, the Patimokkha [set of rules] was not set down. After the disappearance of these enlightened ones, after the disappearance of the disciples enlightened under these enlightened ones, those last disciples of the various clans, of various social strata, who had gone forth from various families, allowed this Brahma life rapidly to disappear. ... peace, connie 25446 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hello RobK, Howard, Victor, Ken, Andrew and All, RobK: Thanks for your post. My apologies for the delay in replying, but I was looking for something about choice and sila that I read recently and thought might be relevant to Precept keeping. I don't think you have missed any posts - I think there are a couple of sub- threads going, one discussing precepts in general and the relative value/necessity of adhering to them, and one discussing just the fifth precept in the same manner. I think, for me, there was also some 'background noise' from other lists where the fifth precept is often quoted as saying 'I vow not to drink to the point of being intoxicated' i.e. so anything less is O.K. It's interesting that 2600 years ago there was an advanced disciple (Sarakani/Saranani) who overcame an alcohol problem for sufficient time to have enough clarity to become a Sotapana. I feel happiness for him. But Sarakani is not me or anyone of us, and we are all far from hearing a Buddha explain the Teachings. I'm talking about us all, here and now, in this daily life. With regard to the Precepts mentioned in the Jivaka Sutta, I think the Buddha meant each of these precepts to carry equal importance. Not that number one was more important than number two, and number two more important than number three ... etc. If the Buddha said to refrain/abstain, maybe he meant just that - not just to do the best we can, but to strive earnestly. Regarding the Fifth: In the West, we live in societies that encourage and promote the use of alcohol. Advertising is aimed at niche markets. There are alcoholic products for those who see themselves as the 'cool' 'young' 'go-getter' group; for those who see themselves as the 'tough' 'sporting' 'courageous' group; for those who see themselves as the 'well bred' 'educated' 'higher social status' group; for those who see themselves as the 'working-class' 'salt of the earth' group; for those who see themselves as the 'health and weight conscious' - and so it goes on. Lobha and moha. Could it be that the values of Western Society lead to the minimising of the necessity of keep the fifth precept with as much determination as the other four? As an aside - in the Anguttara-Nikaaya, V. 1 77 it says: `Five trades should be avoided by a disciple: trading in arms, in living beings, in flesh, in intoxicating drinks, and in poison'. If we buy alcohol - what responsibility do we then have for being a condition for supporting the 'wrong livelihood' of another? What does our example say to others who know we follow the Teachings? Would it be fair to say that Sila is Ethical Action - which I see as the 'foundation' and 'expression' of bhavana.(mental development)? Practicing Vipassana allows me (at times) the clarity of mind to see things separately - to see the relationship between the actions that I do and the happiness or suffering in my immediate world. It teaches me about 'how' I contribute to the creation of more happiness or suffering. I think Ethics deals mainly with Speech and Body. Mind seems to be quicker (even instantaneous) to understand and transform its way of thinking - but Speech and Body are slower and seem to fall back into old habits and reactions, even though the Mind knows better. I, certainly, have done/said something completely stupid at times, even though I *knew* it was wrong. Given the slowness and recidivism of Speech and Body, I think the Precepts need to be adhered to as a means of training a fairly recalcitrant being - even at the risk of being called 'imitation' precept keeping or adhering to rites and rituals. Any comments? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 25447 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "What, then, is the development of concentration that is > kusala (only)?" > > Hi Jon, > > Ah! Now I get it. What makes it jhana (kusala) is relinquishment, > less is better. I was not talking about jhana as such, but 'ordinary' concentration, since I understood this to be the subject of our previous discussions (as to the factors that make this possible). My question is, given that none of the 7 'concentration' factors mentioned in the texts are specifically kusala ones (meaning that concentration is developed regardless of whether the consciousness is kusala or akusala), under what circumstances would the concentration that is being developed be kusala concentration and not akusala concentration? ...I'm sure there is a more eloquent and detailed way of > saying > it, but I think this sums it up. Ironically, a rather high degree > of > tenacity is necessary to develop one pointed concentration on > anything, > including letting-go, but sometimes it just happens. [Just guessing > here.] How do you see it? As I see it, only if kusala of one kind or another is being developed can kusala concentration be developed. Does this make sense? Jon 25448 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:35am Subject: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Hello again ! I have been studying Abhidhamma at tortoise-like pace since I posted questions here a few month ago. Let me ask you a basic question, even though it must be nonsense from a practical viewpoint of samata and vipassana bhavana and it might have already been answered here . In theravada tradition, each of our cittas arises at one moment together with some cetasikas, but not with all the 52 cetasikas. Where are cetasikas which do not arise at the moment ? They should repeatedly arise and disappear from one moment( citta kkhanan ) to momen somewhere.(I know an arahant eradicated some negative cetasikas.) from lokuttaracitta ! 25449 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:13am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear Dhamma Friend ( ? Lokuttaracitta ), There are infinite Nama and Rupa. All are impermanent. In terms of their own characteristics there are 89 states of consciousness called '' Citta ''. Each Citta is always accompanied by appropriate Cetasikas. According to their own nature, there are 52 mental factors or Cetasikas that shape Citta to have its name. Nama and Rupa are arising and passing away at every moment. This is the nature. Abhidhamma is not like a game of scribble. It is not true to say that when 7 Cetasikas arise 45 are left. It is not true to say that when 10 is in use 42 are left. In real when only 7 Cetasika arise, it is true to say that 7 have arisen. When 22 Cetasika have arisen there will be characteristics of all those 22. And when 38 Cetasikas arise, there will be all the characters of 38. Actually there is no stock of Cetasikas or Cittas to arise. So there is nowhere unarising Cetasikas have to be placed. I do hope this message is clear enough for all beginners. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > Hello again ! > > I have been studying Abhidhamma at tortoise-like pace since I > posted questions here a few month ago. > > Let me ask you a basic question, even though it must be nonsense from > a practical viewpoint of samata and vipassana bhavana and it might > have already been answered here . > > In theravada tradition, each of our cittas arises at one moment > together with some cetasikas, but not with all the 52 cetasikas. > Where are cetasikas which do not arise at the moment ? They should > repeatedly arise and disappear from one moment( citta kkhanan ) to > momen somewhere.(I know an arahant eradicated some negative > cetasikas.) > > > from lokuttaracitta ! 25450 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:48am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear Htoo and LC, Good question, excellent answer. Very clear - as you say - no storehouse/stock of cittas cetasiakas. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friend ( ? Lokuttaracitta ), > > There are infinite Nama and Rupa. All are impermanent. In terms of > their own characteristics there are 89 states of consciousness > called '' Citta ''. > > Each Citta is always accompanied by appropriate Cetasikas. According > to their own nature, there are 52 mental factors or Cetasikas that > shape Citta to have its name. > > Nama and Rupa are arising and passing away at every moment. This is > the nature. Abhidhamma is not like a game of scribble. It is not true > to say that when 7 Cetasikas arise 45 are left. It is not true to say > that when 10 is in use 42 are left. > > In real when only 7 Cetasika arise, it is true to say that 7 have > arisen. When 22 Cetasika have arisen there will be characteristics of > all those 22. And when 38 Cetasikas arise, there will be all the > characters of 38. > > Actually there is no stock of Cetasikas or Cittas to arise. So there > is nowhere unarising Cetasikas have to be placed. 25451 From: Sarah Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Training precepts Dear Connie, (Htoo, Ken H and Azita). --- connie wrote: > Mike Olds - BuddhaDust.org > The First Rule > Adopted From the Vinaya-Pitaka, The Book of the Discipline, Volume I, > (Suttavibhanga), PTS, I.B. Horner, trans. > .... This is exactly what I had in mind. I was looking in the introductions and other parts but not at the right place in Bk of Discipline. That's useful to know that Mike O has part of the Bk of D on line too. (Hi Mike O, hope to hear from you one day if you're still keeping an eye on us. I think other friends like Mike N would be glad too;-)) Connie, how very fortunate we are that almost the entire Tipitaka and ancient commentaries (inc. Vinaya) have been so carefully preserved and with the Pali intact as Jim and Suan were commenting. Without all of this, it's unlikely we'd be having these discussions or opportunities for consideration and practice. I think we're also very fortunate to have all the translation help we have as well. Metta, Sarah P.S. No time for more now - I have an intensive yoga weekend, so very busy and tired. (Ken H & Azita, the visiting teacher is Peter Scott from Noosa who we took a class with when we were with you all. Azita, at your friend Michel's studio;-)). 25452 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine, ----------- C. > The Buddha set the foundation of the ethical life of lay people firmly on these short simple clear straightforward Training Rules. Minimising any of them, looking for loopholes, or deciding in advance to bend them, doesn't bode well for whatever structure one hopes to build on that foundation, don't you think? > ----------- No it doesn't bode well, but aren't we talking about undertaking to keep the precepts? Looking for loopholes in precepts is a different matter from simply not taking precepts. So what exactly is entailed in 'taking' precepts? Is it a solemn vow not to break them in the future? Does that imply that the consequences of killing, stealing, lying, illegal sex, drinking will be doubly onerous? That is, will the consequences be more severe than they would have been had we not taken a vow? If not, why not? If there is no obligation involved -- no added danger -- then let's all take the precepts. Let's take eight precepts. Sorry to be frivolous but what is the answer? Kind regards, Ken H PS If I don't promptly respond to your ressponse, it will be because, on Monday, Sue and I are heading off for a few days hol. To the Gold Coast! Don't laugh, there could be a perfectly good reason for travelling from the Sunshine Coast to the Gold Coast for a holiday. (If you know of one please tell me.) KHG 25453 From: Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/20/03 3:53:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > If the Buddha said to refrain/abstain, maybe > he meant just that - not just to do the best we can, but to strive > earnestly. > ========================== To strive to our utmost is exactly the do the best we can, it seems to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25454 From: Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/20/03 8:28:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > So what exactly is entailed in 'taking' precepts? Is > it a solemn vow not to break them in the future? Does > that imply that the consequences of killing, stealing, > lying, illegal sex, drinking will be doubly onerous? > That is, will the consequences be more severe than they > would have been had we not taken a vow? > ======================== Unfortunately (or not), I would say so. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25455 From: Larry Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "As I see it, only if kusala of one kind or another is being developed can kusala concentration be developed. Does this make sense?" Hi Jon, Makes sense to me. I agree. Larry 25456 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Howard, The thing is that I would not assume that the choices are, as in the baby-scorpion situation, only 1) do nothing, and 2) kill the scopion to save the baby. The five precepts are training rules which can be observed and kept in all situations, even though each situation is different from other and have different contexts. There is no need for, in a sense, a "super-rule" that can override the five precepts, namely: given certain situation, one of the five precepts can not be kept, thus it has to be broken. It is a hidden rule, a different value system that is different from that of the five precepts. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - 25457 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:01am Subject: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct Issue of Analysis: Is it sexual misconduct when a father seeks sexual relations with his daughter? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: When a father seeks sexual relations with his daughter it is surely sexual misconduct. The sources which support this conclusion: 1: Book of Discipline (I, Suttavibhaòga, Formal meeting (Saògaadisesa V). 2: Mangalattha Dípaní (Explanation of the Mangala Sutta, Minor Readings, no 5 by Ven. Sirimangala of Chiangmai), exposition on the Vinaya and on support to child and spouse. The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: 1. The father has the duty to guard his daughter so that she is protected from sexual misconduct. But he himself has no right to have sensual contact with her. We read in the ³Book of Discipline² (I, Suttavibhaòga, Formal meeting, Saògådisesa V): ³Protected by the father means: the father protects, guards, wields supremacy, has her under control [1] .² We read in the ³Mangalattha Dípaní², exposition on the Vinaya, on sexual misconduct: ³It is not possible that the mother and the other people who protect the daughter guard her in order to themselves enjoy sensual contact with her. Those who protect her only prevent her from misbehaviour, forbidding her to go to other men. Therefore the mother and the other people who protect her do not have the right of having sensual contact with her.² Therefore, the father only has the duty to protect his daughter, but he himself has no right to have sensual contact with her. If he misbehaves with his daughter it is sexual misconduct. 2. We read in the Mangalattha Dípaní, in the exposition on support to child and spouse: ³The girl who is protected by her own clans-people and by those regarding the Dhamma, people who have gone forth on account of one teacher, and belong to the same group, is said to be protected by her own clans-people and by Dhamma [2].² This shows us that even if a girl is without mother, father, brother, sister or other family members who could protect and guard her, there must be people of her own clan, or people of a group she belongs to who protect her. Thus, if a man abuses that girl it is sexual misconduct. 3. We should undestand that there are different degrees in the eradication of akusala. The monk should abstain altogether from sexual relations. With regard to laypeople, there are unmarried laypeople who do not engage in sexual relations and there are married laypeople who have sexual relations. The Buddha prescribed moral rules for monks and he taught morality to laypeople, in accordance with their status and inclinations. He laid down the precepts for laypople such as the precept concerning sexual misconduct, so that people with moral shame and fear of blame (hiri and ottappa, fear of the consequences of evil) would understand to what extent akusala kamma is a completed action (kamma patha) or not. However, someone may commit a bad deed motivated by defilements which far exceed the generally accepted moral conduct among human beings, such as in the case of a father who abuses his daughter. This concerns a person who has no moral sense at all, who behaves like an animal. This is evil which is more serious than a man¹s misconduct with someone else¹s spouse. 4. The committing of akusala kamma patha does not have anything to do with what people in society regard as right or wrong. The transgression in the way of misconduct of a father towards his daughter motivated by unwholesome intention (akusala cetanå) is certainly sexual misconduct. ****** Footnotes 1. The same is said with regard to the mother, parents, and members of the family. The Commentary explains in which way the mother protects her, and this also regards the father and members of the family. As to protects: she lets her go nowhere. As to guards: she puts her in a place so (well) guarded that other people cannot see (her). As to wields supremacy: restrains her from living in lodgings of her own choice, and overrules her. As to: has her under control: Saying Œdo this, do not do that.¹ 2. This is said in the Commentary to the Vinaya. Her co-religionists protect her. ******* (translated from Thai) Nina. 25458 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine, I agree, and I would say that there is no need to minimise any of them, look for loopholes, or decide in advance to bend them, in everyday life or extreme ethical circumstances. The five precepts is the bedrock of the development of the virtue, there is no need for one to undermine it in any circumstance, unless he or she chooses to. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor and Howard, [snip] 25459 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:37pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine and all, I agree with you. This is how I see it: The five precepts are rules or guidelines for refraining from unwholesome and or unethical actions or behaviors. They are clear- cut and unambiguous, and it is up to one to take up and live by them. The five precepts can be observed and kept in all circumstances. Precepts are not rituals to be performed, and keeping precepts is not ritualistic. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello RobK, Howard, Victor, Ken, Andrew and All, [snip] 25460 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:58pm Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear Htoo Naing and rjkjp1 Thank you very much for your reply ! Please let me continue. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friend ( ? Lokuttaracitta ), > > There are infinite Nama and Rupa. All are impermanent. In terms of > their own characteristics there are 89 states of consciousness > called '' Citta ''. > > Each Citta is always accompanied by appropriate Cetasikas. According > to their own nature, there are 52 mental factors or Cetasikas that > shape Citta to have its name. > > Nama and Rupa are arising and passing away at every moment. This is > the nature. Abhidhamma is not like a game of scribble. It is not true > to say that when 7 Cetasikas arise 45 are left. It is not true to say > that when 10 is in use 42 are left. > > In real when only 7 Cetasika arise, it is true to say that 7 have > arisen. When 22 Cetasika have arisen there will be characteristics of > all those 22. And when 38 Cetasikas arise, there will be all the > characters of 38. > > Actually there is no stock of Cetasikas or Cittas to arise. So there > is nowhere unarising Cetasikas have to be placed. I do hope this > message is clear enough for all beginners. Will some of the unarising Cetasikas suddenly arise depending only on the other nama and rupa without their own continuity of arising and disappearance? Can they arise only from the external causes without their own continuum of arising and disappearance? How about anusaya (latent tendencies) ? They should repeat their own arising and disappearance without interruption somewhere even though all of them do not always arise to sense-doors and mind-door of ordinary beings ,because only a Buddha and arahant have eradicated them. Looking forward to hearing from your answer! from lokuttaracitta 25461 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Formations - 'choice' - the creative power of Intention? Dear All, I was considering the first part of the Paticcasamuppada formula ... the part about 'Ignorance' conditions 'formations' and 'formations' conditions 'consciousness' .... 'formations' seems to have a few meanings, one of which is 'anything that is constructed/made up from other bits and pieces'. Things like a computer, a house, a body, a feeling/emotion, a breath etc are all seeming wholes made up of complex systems which are in turn imbedded in other complex systems that are in turn imbedded... on and on. But somewhere (and I can't find it again) I read that the most important of the 'formations' was 'choice' which is the creative power of 'intention' made up from our inner drives, yearnings, terrors etc. Can anyone give, or point to, further info.? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25462 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Chris, Azita and all --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > Azita has had some difficulty posting this first part of the > article > by her friend Chittapala - and has asked me to forward it. Any > comments would be most welcome: > > "THE SEXUAL ETHIC OF THE MIDDLE WAY > > by Chittapala Thanks for arranging for this. It's good to be hearing again, if indirectly, from my old friend Chittapala. Will comments be passed back to him? It would be good if he could respond later. Reading this article, I suspect that Chitt. and I have somewhat different ideas about the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. To my reading of the texts, these are the mental factors that accompany a moment of path-consciousness, and at a moment of supramundane path consciousness all 8 factors are present, while at a moment of mundane path consciousness 5 (or 6) of them are present. As regards the factor of Right Action, this is one of the 3 restraints and, like the other 2 restraints, it only arises as a path factor when there is an occasion for restraint from akusala of a particular kind (and when certain other conditions are present). Now not all akusala action is action the restraint from which constitutes Right Action as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. The restraint must be restraint from action of a certain degree of unwholesomeness (i.e., killing, lying or sexual misconduct). Most of our actions during the day are motivated by akusala of one kind or another, including when we eat and drink, walk around, speak and do our work. But restraint from these akusala actions would not be 'Right Action' of the Noble Eightfold Path. As regard sexual activity, only certain kinds of activity are mentioned in the teachings as action that is particularly to be avoided (as in the precept). So it does not seem curious to me that only restraint from sexual activity that amounts to misconduct should constitute Right Action of the Noble Eightfold Path. Given that the other instances of Right Action involve restraint from killing and lying, it would seem somewhat anomalous if the situation were otherwise. On the general question of 'sexual ethics', Chittapala says: "Throughout his dispensation Buddha frequently spoke about the dangers of sensual desire, how it can create suffering in this and other lives, and how it is a major obstruction to spiritual development." I think that when the Buddha spoke abut the dangers of sensual desire he was referring to desire of any degree for the objects of all the 5 senses, that is, our old friends visible-object, audible-object, etc., and not specifically to carnal desires/lust. Such desire *is* suffering. Finally, I would hesitate to agree with the idea that all sense-desire is regarded in the texts as an obstacle to spiritual development, since everyone starts from a position of having sense desires and other kilesas in abundance, and their eradication comes only when full enlightenment has been attained. It might be more helpful to consider sense desires as unwholesome tendencies that can be known for what they are, as and when they arise, by developed insight. Jon 25463 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry, --- Larry wrote: > Jon: "As I see it, only if kusala of one kind or another is being > developed can kusala concentration be developed. Does this make > sense?" > > Hi Jon, > > Makes sense to me. I agree. > > Larry So our aim should be to develop more kusala rather than to develop more concentration. Would you agree?. Jon 25464 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hello KenH, ----------- C. > The Buddha set the foundation of the ethical life of lay people firmly on these short simple clear straightforward Training Rules. Minimising any of them, looking for loopholes, or deciding in advance to bend them, doesn't bode well for whatever structure one hopes to build on that foundation, don't you think? > ----------- KH: No it doesn't bode well, but aren't we talking about undertaking to keep the precepts? Looking for loopholes in precepts is a different matter from simply not taking precepts. CJF: No - we aren't talking about 'taking' precepts. Don't try your Lawyer's tricks on me HG - tangentally switching subjects, starting a debate, and then ducking out for a few days at Surfers or Coolangatta :-) :-)) We were discussing whether the Buddha's words in the Jivaka Sutta where he used the word 'pañivirato' (meaning 'abstain')when listing EACH of the five training rules, meant just that. Have fun in the sun, remember to slip slop slap (an early Spring 30 C there todsy) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" 25465 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Howard, ----------- > > will the consequences be more severe than they > > would have been had we not taken a vow? > > > ======================== > Unfortunately (or not), I would say so. ------------------ As you say, "unfortunately or not." On the unfortunate side, taking a vow has created the potential for greater akusala. On the fortunate side, it seemed like the honourable thing to do at the time. It's a murky area isn't it? Don't you agree that the safest approach is to treat the Dhamma, not as a prescription but as a description? In other words, forget about being the kusala hero (Captain Kusala), who risks hell and high water in order to make the world a better place. Learn what is kusala kamma and, what is akusala kamma, what is right understanding and what is wrong understanding. If the situation permits (if the conditions are right), then here and now, we will put what have learned into practice. That will happen before we even know it, let alone before we can vow to do it. I think that is not only the safest way, it's the only way. Kind regards, Ken H 25466 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 7:17pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept Dear Christine, Let me speak generally around this topic. I brought it up with Ajahn sujin yesterday. I was wrong about taking a sip of beer being akusala kammapatha as these only include the 10 unwholesome actions and drinking is not among them. It is true though that a sotapanna would never knowingly drink alcohol unless it was part of medicine. And although taking a sip of beer is unlikely to corrupt one immediately, the danger lies in that one sip might lead to more(and more). So I think so far no one is trying to encourage drinking among Buddhists. What Ken (and Andrew too) have been pointing too is that merely abstaining from drinking is not the path. It can even obscure the path if it becomes an aspect of silabataparamasa. The Sammohavinodani (page227): "The ordinary man is like a madman and without considering 'Is this right or not' and aspiring by means of clinging ...he performs any of the kinds of kamma [good or bad)... Thus silabataparamasa [clinging to rules and rituals]is a condition for all three, namely the sense desire world, fine material and immaterial kinds of existence with their divisions and what they include" Thus silabataparamasa can lead to both good and bad states, it can lead even to the highest pleasant feelings experienced in jhana but it cannot lead out of samsara. All ways of kusala (wholesome) can support the development of insight, but they won't if they are clung to or mistaken as the path. -------------------------------- Christine: It's interesting that 2600 years ago there was an advanced disciple > (Sarakani/Saranani) who overcame an alcohol problem for sufficient > time to have enough clarity to become a Sotapana. I feel happiness > for him. But Sarakani is not me or anyone of us, and we are all far > from hearing a Buddha explain the Teachings. I'm talking about us > all, here and now, in this daily life. ______ Sarakanni died with the alcohol still on his breath. How did he overcome - forever- his problem is what we should want to understand. And that can have been no other way than by insighting the anattaness, the uncontrollability of arising dhammas, so that self view and hence also silabataparamasa were eradicated. And this way is identical 2600 years or now. If we hear true Dhamma from the Buddha directly or we study his teachings now, whether they are understood or not depends on various conditions. On this list from time to time we are fortunate to have, for example, Dan Dalthorp or Kenhoward give subtle pointers into the way silabataparamasa is working in our 'Buddhist' life. __________ Christine: Practicing Vipassana allows me (at times) the clarity of mind to see > things separately - to see the relationship between the actions that > I do and the happiness or suffering in my immediate world. It > teaches me about 'how' I contribute to the creation of more happiness > or suffering. ______________ Is this practicing vipassana or is it only thinking about the way we think things occur? If there is vipassana there is no I, there are only differnt conditions. One moment anger, next moment seeing . One moment resolving not to drink, the next clinging to that idea, the next having conceit about abstaining. This is not singling you out, it is just how it works for everyone. It is always good to keep the precepts, all religions encourage this to some degree and its results can be heavenly or human rebirth. But this is still trapped in samsara and so we need to push more to look into the moment and so let go of all hidden degrees of 'me'. I think if no one is kind enough to explain about the way silabataparamsa keeps arising then it will always remain hidden and we might live our whole life divorced from the depth of the Dhamma, even though we keep the strictest degree of outward sila. Robertk 25467 From: Date: Sat Sep 20, 2003 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "As I see it, only if kusala of one kind or another is being developed can kusala concentration be developed. Does this make sense?" Larry: "Makes sense to me. I agree." Jon: "So our aim should be to develop more kusala rather than to develop more concentration. Would you agree?." Hi Jon, That seems like leaping logic to me. I'm highly reluctant to say what anyone's aim "should" be. If you want to follow the prescribed 8-fold path then you should develop jhana. If you can't do that then at least develop kusala. Larry 25468 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:32am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Nina and Dhamma Friends, To my knowledge: The Bhikkhu has to be free from any sex ( from three Kammadvara of Kaya, Vaci and Mano _ Abrahmacariya ). This is no need to say. For lay people who are engaged in sexual relation can have sex with their lawful partners. Otherwise any sex will be sexual misconduct. Any one, male or female, who has sex with married person who is not his or her own legal partner is said to commit sexual misconduct and will definitely suffer sooner or later. Married male is said to commit sexual misconduct when he has sex with a female who is not his wife. This includes all females including his own daughters, grand-duaghters, sisters and so on. Married female is said to commit sexual misconduct when she has sex with a male who is not her own husband. This includes all males including her own father, own sons, own brothers and so on. A single male, who has sex with a female who is married, is said to commit sexual misconduct. This is no doubt a sexual misconduct. Again, '' when a single male has sex with a female who is not married is sexual misconduct '' raises a question with doubt. Law and legal views are different from Abhidhamma and Vinaya. The above case is said to commit '' Karmesumicchacara '' or sexual misconduct. Because even though female party is not married she is under control of her owners like 1. father 2. mother 3. brothers and sisters 4. society 5. monastry or any religious team 6. government including very local like 10 householderer 7.relatives 8. judges In above case, even though the female may give consent, which is legally lawful, the male is said to commit sexual misconduct from views of Abhidhamma and Vinaya. A single female who has sex with a married male is said to commit sexual misconduct even though law may differ in different societies, in which polygamy is being practised. She may legally be right in some societies where polygamy is a norm. But she is not from the views of Abhidhamma and Vinaya. A single female who has sex with a single male is free of sexual misconduct because she does possess her sexuality. The reverse is not true as sexuality is controlled by owners. With Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dhamma Issue no 11. > > Sexual Misconduct > > Issue of Analysis: Is it sexual misconduct when a father seeks sexual > relations with his daughter? ----------------------------------------- > This shows us that even if a girl is without mother, father, brother, sister > or other family members who could protect and guard her, there must be > people of her own clan, or people of a group she belongs to who protect her. > Thus, if a man abuses that girl it is sexual misconduct. ------------------------------------------- > 3. We should undestand that there are different degrees in the eradication > of akusala. He laid down > the precepts for laypople such as the precept concerning sexual misconduct, > so that people with moral shame and fear of blame (hiri and ottappa, fear of > the consequences of evil) would understand to what extent akusala kamma is a > completed action (kamma patha) or not. ----------------------------------- > 4. The committing of akusala kamma patha does not have anything to do with > what people in society regard as right or wrong. The transgression in the > way of misconduct of a father towards his daughter motivated by unwholesome > intention (akusala cetanå) is certainly sexual misconduct. > > ****** > Footnotes > > 1. The same is said with regard to the mother, parents, and members of the > family. The Commentary explains in which way the mother protects her, and > this also regards the father and members of the family. --------------------------- > (translated from Thai) > Nina. 25469 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:53am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Christine, -snip- > I think if no one is kind enough to explain about the way > silabataparamsa keeps arising then it will always remain hidden and we > might live our whole life divorced from the depth of the Dhamma, even > though we keep the strictest degree of outward sila. > > > Robertk Dear Rob, I would like to know more about silabbata-paramasa. I have been listening to tapes and A. Sujin talks about s-p on a very momentary level and at that level I am a bit lost. In the dictionary it states 'attachment/clinging to rules and rituals'. Now, can this mean that if I think I can have awareness by trying to name or 'catch' the present moment, that this is s-p? Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? I ask this bec. I think the precepts can be broken easily, if the conditions are right. Are you still in Thailand? Patience, courage and good cheer. 25470 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 4:14am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear LC, Thanks for your interesting and demanding question. Here is my inline text to your reply. I hope it is clear to all. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing and rjkjp1 > > Thank you very much for your reply ! > > Please let me continue.( LC ) --------------------- Sure, we will do ( Htoo ) ----------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friend ( ? Lokuttaracitta ), ---------------------------------------------- > Will some of the unarising Cetasikas suddenly arise depending only on the other nama and rupa without their own continuity of arising and disappearance? ( LC ) ---------------------------------- Yes, exactly. To peel out Ditthi and to have Samma-Ditthi or the right view, the Dhamma of Nama and Rupa have to be crystal clear to the viewer. If it is clear, then Samma-Ditthi arises. Any Nama or Rupa has their own characteristics. They have their own function. There are signs that make the viewer known that there is Nama or Rupa. There are immediate causes for Nama and Rupa. As I said, there is no stock for Nama Dhamma. So the unarising Cetasikas ( the term you used ) did not arise because there was not any cause. The unarising Cetasikas are Nama Dhamma. So they have their own characteristics. They have their own function. If they arose, the arising of them will be evident to the viewer. They have immediate causes for their arising. Immediate causes for arising of Cetasika are Nama and Rupa. So what you asked is right. They arise suddenly depending only on the other Nama and Rupa. Citta arises and falls away. Next Citta arises and falls away again. This may be assumed by some as Citta's own continuity. This is the place where Atta and Anatta problem arises. Next Citta arises because of its cause. If there is no cause, the next Citta will not arise. This is entirely true in case of '' Cuti Citta of Arahats ''. Rupa also arises and falls away. Thinking of continuum is just a concept.Saying this may encourage Attavadhi to argue more and more on the matter. '' If there is no continuum, how does identity work? '' Identity is the matter of Sanna( memory ) and which is a Cetasika. It has its own characteristics and own function. When it arises it is evident to the viewer. It has to arise because of the cause. ( Htoo ) P.S : I hope moderator would add more to this arguement. ------------------------------------------------------- Can they arise only from the external causes without their own continuum of arising and disappearance? ( LC ) ---------------------------------------------- This is already answered above. There actually is no continuum even though it seems there is. ( Htoo ) --------------------------------------------------- > How about anusaya (latent tendencies) ? They should repeat their own arising and disappearance without interruption somewhere even though all of them do not always arise to sense-doors and mind- door of ordinary beings ,because only a Buddha and arahant have eradicated them. Looking forward to hearing from your answer! from lokuttaracitta -------------------------- Anusaya are Dhamma that have potentials to arise when circumstances favour. These Dhamma are some of the most difficult Dhamma that can be realised and understood. Yes, as you said only Arahatta Magga will eradicate these Anusaya. Anusaya is a '' name ''. It does not arise nor disappear. But it does exist and will end instantaneously at the time of Arahatta Magga Citta arises. ( Htoo ) P.S : Will someone please quote Anusaya from literature? May all beings free from confusion and Miccha-Ditthi. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 25471 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 4:29am Subject: Re: Formations - 'choice' - the creative power of Intention? Dear Christine and all, Paticcasamuppada or dependent origination is a circle without any start or beginning. But conventionally it is discussed on Avijja or Moha or ignorance to start with. '' Avijja Paccaya Sankhara Sankhara Paccaya Vinnana Vinnana Paccaya Nama-Rupam.....Sambhavanti.'' Absence of Vijja is Avijja. As there is no Vijja Nana, Sankhara are being done. Sankhara rae '' delibrate actions ''. Any Sankhara comprises Cetana Cetasika or volition or delibrate will. So it can be said that Cetana is wilful action. All Kammapatha( Kamma-generating ) actions at three Kammadvara of Kaya, Vaci and Mano are are always always accompanied by Cetana or volition. I hope this message is clear enough to understand and further opinions are welcome. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > I was considering the first part of the Paticcasamuppada formula ... > the part about 'Ignorance' conditions 'formations' and 'formations' > conditions 'consciousness' .... 'formations' seems to have a few > meanings, one of which is 'anything that is constructed/made up from > other bits and pieces'. Things like a computer, a house, a body, > a feeling/emotion, a breath etc are all seeming wholes made up of > complex systems which are in turn imbedded in other complex systems > that are in turn imbedded... on and on. > But somewhere (and I can't find it again) I read that the most > important of the 'formations' was 'choice' which is the creative > power of 'intention' made up from our inner drives, yearnings, > terrors etc. Can anyone give, or point to, further info.? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25472 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:08am Subject: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER ONE ! (At the last episode...) The Paramattha Dhammas are the main structure of all Buddhism and the golden bricks that Reality are made of. White T-Shirts, Socks, Pants, Toothbrush, shaving blade... At the first glance, these Dhammas are classified in two main categories: the first one is nipphanannarupa, produced by the catuja (kamma, citta, utu, ahara), that are "Real" because they are material and entirely grounded on Rupa. Niyama! Niyama! Niyama! (And now, the conclusion...) ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER ONE ! - AFTER A MUTTON SCÉANCE, WHAT´S REALITY ? Bootcamp! Living at the barracks, among other doughboys, it´s a matter of adaptability: one must get good manners on standing up at bed, to attend the calling of Nature in the common bathroom,to shave one´s own face (Rasée la figure, in French),to put on the camp uniform and to get a good place to take the breakfast! In all these acts, there is a constant and definite set of signals and messages that are shared with the speaker and the listener at a two-way channel of communication. When the Sergeant or Lieutennat loudly verbalize off the instructions, our ears must take these set of signals, and after a very quick ellaboration put the limbs on action as fast as possible! Are these affairs a set of "Real" things ? At this point of our journey, we will meet the second group of Paramattha Dhammas: Ten elements that are considered not real (anipphanannarupa). 1. akasa - space Communication (viññatti) - 2. bodily language (kayaniññatti) 3. vocal intimation (vagiviññatti) These two are produced by mind. After the first Viññatti - the space between myself and others, and between myself and the sergeant, the scene of all communication act, we get the first signals of further communicantion when the sergeant boldly looks at us and begins to speak. Our minds also begin to prepare us to understand and to act! And finally, after a nanosecond of suspense, comes out the order by the sergeant - a definite vocal intimation (Vagiviññatti)which you must obey!!!! And there are also other mutable material qualities: 4. lightness (lahuta) 5. softness (muduta) 6. adaptability (kamma¤¤ata) These three are produced without kamma. You all, noble company of Dhamma Students, could try out these experiment: standing on foot entirely motionless do FEEL the lightness, softness and adaptability (or the contraries of these!!!) of your clothes, your boots and the air you breathe! All these factors are made without any material action, or Kamma!!! Other Characteristics of material qualities (lakkhanarupa) 7. material productivity - beginning (upacaya) 8. continuity (santati) 9. decay (jarata) 10. impermanence (aniccata) All in this world of Dukkha rises and falls at the same patterns: from upacaya to anicatta, the food dish in front of my eyes at the begin of lunch is filled (or produced by the cook) of rice, beams and meat. Time runs out. And at last the food dish is empty of mundane food. All material processes in world follow up the same path, that´s not "real" as a material and finite thing. Finally, we get a full list of Paramattha Dhammas: The first 18 plus these 10 make the classical and canonical 28 rupas! And I´ll become a vegetarian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! O Noble flock of Dhamma followers! Don´t deny my advice: stay tuned for more Dhamma Days at the Military Bootcamp !!!!!!!!! Next Episode: "ICARO DAMMA´S DIARY, CHAPTER TWO: The FLEEEEEECE of a good soldier is a good uniform!" Mettaya, Ícaro 25473 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry Sorry about the leaping logic. Let me try again ;-)). We agreed in a previous post that only if kusala of one kind or another is being developed can concentration that is kusala be developed. In other words, when kusala is developed, so is concentration that is kusala. So for example, when kusala of the level of samatha is developed, so is the kusala concentration that supports jhana (absorption concentration). Any disagreement here? Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > Jon: "So our aim should be to develop more kusala rather than to > develop > more concentration. Would you agree?." > > Hi Jon, > > That seems like leaping logic to me. I'm highly reluctant to say > what > anyone's aim "should" be. If you want to follow the prescribed > 8-fold > path then you should develop jhana. If you can't do that then at > least develop kusala. > > Larry 25474 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:13am Subject: Different Path to Enlightenment Hey Guys, For those not interested in meditation, here is an alternative method leading to enlightenment (supposedly) you might want to try ;-): http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0920japan- marathon20.html Metta, James 25475 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:21am Subject: About Egypt Hey All, I have not written anything about Egypt in a while because I am just finding it to be a hopelessly stupid, backward, and apathetic society. But those may be just foreigner's reactions/culture shock. After a while I may get a balanced perspective and then I can make intelligent observations. Now I think all you would get from me would be rantings. Metta, James 25476 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim Thanks very much for unravelling the references in the translation for me. So, 'samatha' in this context is ekaggataa cetasika (but with emphasis on its 'quiet' aspect). Thanks also for pointing out this new (to me) meaning of samatha. I can see I will need to be more careful in future when comparing samatha and concentration. Regarding samatha in the context of samatha-vipassana or samatha bhavana (and samadhi as in the samadhi section of Visuddhi-Magga), my understanding is that this is a reference to kusala citta accompanied by pannaa but not of the level of insight (i.e., not having paramattha dhamma as object). Is this how you see it? Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > Jim > > > > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, .. > The translation of 'samatha' in the list is 'quiet'. This is > explained > at Dhs §395 in the Pali but the translation on p.95 refers you back > to §375 on p. 92 which in turn refers back to §11 on p. 11 for > 'self-collectedness' (cittass'ekaggataa). Instead of calling them > cetasikas, the Dhs calls them aruupino (immaterial) dhammas in > order > to include citta. There are many more aruupino dhammas (about twice > as > many) as the standard list of 52 cetasikas. The Expositor explains > how > all these extra dhammas (except citta) are reduced to the list of > 52. > Samatha is included in the cetasika one-pointedness (ekaggataa). > Buddhist Psychological Ethics is lacking in some respects eg. Mrs. > Rhys Davids didn't bother to translate the last ka.n.da or chapter > as she didn't think it had any value!! ... > 'steadiness of consciousness' (citta.t.thiti or cittassa .thiti) is > also included in the description of one-pointedness of mind and > samatha in the Dhs. 25477 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Jim) - > Lists aside, wouldn't it be appropriate to say that while > Jeffrey > Dahmer was enjoying a large, satisfying dinner, his calm mindstates > were akusala? > ;-) The point, it seems to me, is that evil actions can instill > delightful > calm in some people, and that calm is certainly unwholesome. > > With metta, > Howard I'm sure you're right here. But unwholesome mindstates are the norm for everyone, it's just that there can be considerable differences in degree, so it shouldn't be assumed that the concentration of upright, law-abiding folks like you and me (hopefully) is kusala rather than akusala, even where the object is one we regard as a 'kusala' object. Sounds tough, I know, but better to face up to the size of the problem than assume (wrongly) a better case ;-)) Jon 25478 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 6:42am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear Htoo Naing I appreciate your great metta ! > The unarising Cetasikas are Nama Dhamma. So they have their own > characteristics. They have their own function. If they arose, the > arising of them will be evident to the viewer. They have immediate > causes for their arising. > > Immediate causes for arising of Cetasika are Nama and Rupa. So what > you asked is right. They arise suddenly depending only on the other > Nama and Rupa. > Citta arises and falls away. Next Citta arises and falls away again. > This may be assumed by some as Citta's own continuity. This is the > place where Atta and Anatta problem arises. Next Citta arises because > of its cause. If there is no cause, the next Citta will not arise. > This is entirely true in case of '' Cuti Citta of Arahats ''. > > Rupa also arises and falls away. Thinking of continuum is just a > concept.Saying this may encourage Attavadhi to argue more and more on > the matter. > > '' If there is no continuum, how does identity work? '' > > Identity is the matter of Sanna( memory ) and which is a Cetasika. It > has its own characteristics and own function. When it arises it is > evident to the viewer. It has to arise because of the cause. ( Htoo ) > > P.S : I hope moderator would add more to this arguement. I think this is a matter of what is the definition of the continuum as well as a matter of our sanna. If it means " permanence and ever-lasting without any change" , it can lead to attan or soul taught in some religions. However when the word used in theravadin like citta-santati, should it mean " ever-lasting change with ariseng and dissapearance at every moment (but which will come to an end at a next moment when cuti-citta of an arahat arise)" ? If so, there seems no room to have a view of attavadin when we understand the difference. > > How about anusaya (latent tendencies) ? They should repeat their > own arising and disappearance without interruption somewhere even > though all of them do not always arise to sense-doors and mind- > door of ordinary beings ,because only a Buddha and arahant have > eradicated them. > > > Anusaya are Dhamma that have potentials to arise when circumstances > favour. These Dhamma are some of the most difficult Dhamma that can > be realised and understood. Yes, as you said only Arahatta Magga will > eradicate these Anusaya. > > Anusaya is a '' name ''. It does not arise nor disappear. But it does > exist and will end instantaneously at the time of Arahatta Magga > Citta arises. ( Htoo ) Yes the word anusaya is a concept. Can a concept not be said " it exists" in an ulitimate sense of theravadin"? So let me talk about lobha as one of paramattha dhammas. Lobha does exist in ordinary beings and will be eradicated the moment when arahatta magga citta arises. So where is the lobha before arahatta magga citta arises? Where is the potenciality to arise ? As long as lobha or the potenciality exists, it must exist (repeatedly arise and dissapear)somewhere even when it does not arise to our sense-doors and mind-door. There shoud exist behind sense- doors and mind-doors the lobha/ potenciality which will have the immediate causes for its arising. Otherwise there is no difference on lobha between arhants and ordinary beings when lobha of ordinary beings do not arise. Where is the lobha or the potenciality ? Looking forward to hearing from you all !! from LC 25479 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/20/03 9:07:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Don't you agree that the safest approach is to treat the > Dhamma, not as a prescription but as a description? In > other words, forget about being the kusala hero (Captain > Kusala), who risks hell and high water in order to make > the world a better place. Learn what is kusala kamma and, > what is akusala kamma, what is right understanding and > what is wrong understanding. If the situation permits (if > the conditions are right), then here and now, we will put > what have learned into practice. That will happen before > we even know it, let alone before we can vow to do it. I > think that is not only the safest way, it's the only way. > > ======================= No, I think the Dhamma *is* a prescription and, optimally, we will take the medicine as prescribed. Sometimes - most of the time - we will fall short, but we should attempt to do our utmost, without beating ourselves over the head each time we forget and leave the medicine on the shelf. We do have to at least be aware when we forget, especially when we "forget" on purpose! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25480 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:32am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Quote For Anusaya-s Dear Saya Htootinnaing, Lokuttaracitta, Robert, Mike and all How are you? As Saya Htootinnaing said, cetasikas can arise only when a consciousness has a chance to arise. Cetasikas being inactive mean cetasikas not arising. They do not arise outside a consciousness. Anusaya-s are merely eradicatable cetasikas (maggehi pahaatabba cetasika-s). Even though the term "anusaya" sounds invisibly lying somewhere, this is only for figurative purposes. That is to say, they are nowhere to be found outside unhealthy consciousnesses (akusala cittaani) that arise in the present. The following is the Suttam quote for the three root cetasika anusaya- s. "Sukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, adukkhamasukhaaya vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. "Friend Visaakha, indeed, the latent lust tends to arise in the comfort feeling, the latent violence tends to arise in the miserable feeling, and the latent ignorance tends to arise in the neutral feeling." Section 465, Muulapa.n.naasa Pali, Majjhimanikaayo. In the above quote, the latent lust means greed (lobho) that hasn't been eradicated by Arahatta magga ñaa.na. The latent violence means anger (doso) that hasn't been eradicated by Anaagaami magga ñaa.na. The latent ignorance means ingnorance (moho) that hasn't been eradicated by Arahatta magga ñaa.na. In short, the adjective "latent" for the term "anusaya" means "hasn't been eradicated by magga ñaa.na-s or magga citta-s". The term "latent" does not mean the literal sense of lying and waiting invisibly somewhere. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear LC, Anusaya is a '' name ''. It does not arise nor disappear. But it does exist and will end instantaneously at the time of Arahatta Magga Citta arises. ( Htoo ) P.S : Will someone please quote Anusaya from literature? > May all beings free from confusion and Miccha-Ditthi. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 25482 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:37am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi Azita, I hope you don't mind if I take a stab at your questions... [We are fortunate to have Rob around to correct me if I screw up.] Q: Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? --> Dan: Not necessarily, but if you believe that liberation can come about by adhering to the 5 precepts, that would be silabbataparamasa. It is good to adhere to the precepts because breaking them can lead to tremendous suffering for both the doer and the done to's, but this is substantially different from saying that following the precepts is in any way the development of wisdom or leads to liberation. In fact, the arrow between wisdom and precepts points the other way -- one with refined wisdom does not break precepts, but adhering to precepts does not lead to wisdom. Getting the direction of the arrow backwards and thinking that wisdom is developed by adhering to precepts and rituals is called silabbataparamasa. This remains true whether those precepts are the pañca sila; a rule like "I will catch the present moment by trying to catch the present moment"; or a ritual like sitting in a corner with eyes closed, legs crossed, and attention directed to a particular sensation or concept. Azita: I think the precepts can be broken easily... --> Dan: Agreed. But, keeping the 5 precepts is very important, so we should try hard to do so even though it is extremely difficult to do. However, thinking such efforts (no matter how important and valuable and good they may be) will lead to liberation is silabbataparamasa. Dan > I would like to know more about silabbata-paramasa. > I have been listening to tapes and A. Sujin talks about s-p on a > very momentary level and at that level I am a bit lost. > In the dictionary it states 'attachment/clinging to rules and > rituals'. > Now, can this mean that if I think I can have awareness by trying > to name or 'catch' the present moment, that this is s-p? > > Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? I ask this bec. > I think the precepts can be broken easily, if the conditions are > right. > > Are you still in Thailand? > > Patience, courage and good cheer. 25483 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:40am Subject: Cutting Back Hi, all - Once before I noted that too much of my energy and time are being dedicated to e-mail list interaction at the expense of what I call "formal practice". This is reoccurring. So, once again I'll be cutting back a bit - not going anywhere, not cutting *out*, but definitely cutting back. Meanwhile I intend to improve the regularity and frequency of my sitting meditation, I've signed up for a brief retreat (months off), and I hope soon to be visiting a nearby monastery at which some quite worthy monks reside. Still in touch, and with metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25484 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, > Jim > > Thanks very much for unravelling the references in the translation > for me. So, 'samatha' in this context is ekaggataa cetasika (but > with emphasis on its 'quiet' aspect). When we are using the classification system of the 52 cetasikas as enumerated in the Abhidhammatthasangaha, one would have to include 'samatha' under the general term 'ekaggataa'. But in the Atthasalini (Expositor, p. 178), the general term used is 'samaadhi' (concentration) which is classified in 6 places (in all kusala states) as follows: 1. cittass'ekaggataa (a jhaana-factor) 2. samaadhindriya (a faculty) 3. sammaasamaadhi (a path-factor) 4. samaadhibala (a power or strength) 5. samatha (calm) 6. avikkhepa (non-distraction) In akusala states, no.3 is changed into micchaasamaadhi. Dhs §1189 defines cetasika dhammas as vedanaakkhandha, sa~n~naakkhandha, sa"nkhaarakkhandha. I think one can refer to any one of the above six categories of samaadhi as a cetasika dhamma in the Abhidhammic system of the Dhammasangani but in the other simplified system one can only use the 'ekaggataa' term for all six. N.B.: I just spotted a big error in the PTS edn. of Atthasaalinii (p. 135): "Magga"ngaani patvaa samaadhindriyan ti." should read "Magga"ngaani patvaa sammaasamaadhii ti." Fortunately, the translation in The Expositor is okay. > Thanks also for pointing out this new (to me) meaning of samatha. I > can see I will need to be more careful in future when comparing > samatha and concentration. > > Regarding samatha in the context of samatha-vipassana or samatha > bhavana (and samadhi as in the samadhi section of Visuddhi-Magga), my > understanding is that this is a reference to kusala citta accompanied > by pannaa but not of the level of insight (i.e., not having > paramattha dhamma as object). Is this how you see it? No, I see that samatha is an associated dhamma that is found in all kusala states with or without pa~n~naa including the lokuttaracittas (see Dhs §334). If a citta associated with knowledge has a paramattha dhamma as object, then the associated samatha will also take the same paramattha object. Note that in the Asankhatasamyutta of the Samyutta Nikaya, the Buddha states that 'samatha' is a path (one of many) leading to the Unconditioned, etc. I think the crucial difference between kusala and akusala states is the presence or absence of sati. Best wishes, Jim 25485 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Quote For Anusaya-s Dear Suan Lu Zaw Thank you for your reply ! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Saya Htootinnaing, Lokuttaracitta, Robert, Mike and all > > How are you? > > As Saya Htootinnaing said, cetasikas can arise only when a > consciousness has a chance to arise. Cetasikas being inactive mean > cetasikas not arising. They do not arise outside a consciousness. > > Anusaya-s are merely eradicatable cetasikas (maggehi pahaatabba > cetasika-s). Even though the term "anusaya" sounds invisibly lying > somewhere, this is only for figurative purposes. That is to say, they > are nowhere to be found outside unhealthy consciousnesses (akusala > cittaani) that arise in the present. > > The following is the Suttam quote for the three root cetasika anusaya- > s. > > "Sukhaaya kho, aavuso visaakha, vedanaaya raagaanusayo anuseti, > dukkhaaya vedanaaya pa.tighaanusayo anuseti, adukkhamasukhaaya > vedanaaya avijjaanusayo anusetii"ti. > > "Friend Visaakha, indeed, the latent lust tends to arise in the > comfort feeling, the latent violence tends to arise in the miserable > feeling, and the latent ignorance tends to arise in the neutral > feeling." > > Section 465, Muulapa.n.naasa Pali, Majjhimanikaayo. > > In the above quote, the latent lust means greed (lobho) that hasn't > been eradicated by Arahatta magga ñaa.na. > > The latent violence means anger (doso) that hasn't been eradicated by > Anaagaami magga ñaa.na. > > The latent ignorance means ingnorance (moho) that hasn't been > eradicated by Arahatta magga ñaa.na. > > In short, the adjective "latent" for the term "anusaya" means "hasn't > been eradicated by magga ñaa.na-s or magga citta-s". The > term "latent" does not mean the literal sense of lying and waiting > invisibly somewhere. > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw Can you say that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does not exist anywhere? If you can, it means the magga-citta eradicate " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist anywhere.This sounds quite illogical. If you can not, does not it follow that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does exist somewhere ? And where is the " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" eradicated by the magga-citta ? Lobha does not arise as his/her cetasika even for moments before the magga-citta arises as well as at the moment when the magga-citta arises. However I think that lobha should exist somewhere in his/her nama when it is eradicated by his/ her arahatta magga-citta. Otherwise where is lobha eradicated by the magga-citta? Or what is eradicated by the magga-citta? Looking forward to receiving clear explanations from anyone ! from LC 25486 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:44am Subject: FW: Co. to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 13 B Co. to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 13 B Commentary: avassikadaharaana.m santika.m gantvaa -- He visited the young monks who were newly ordained and exhorted them, saying, ``abhiramatha, aavuso, maa ukka.n.thittha, pa.tipattisaaraka.m buddhasaasana''nti ovadati. "Rejoice, friends, be not discontented with the Teachings which contain a practice that is essentail and most excellent in substance.² eva.m katvaa sabbapacchaa bhikkhaacaara.m gacchati. When he had acted in that way he went on his almsround after all the other monks. yathaa hi cakkavatti kuhi~nci gantukaamo senaaya parivaarito pa.thama.m nikkhamati, Just as the wheelturning monarch, wherever he wants to go, departs first, followed by his army, pari.naayakaratana.m sena"ngaani sa.mvidhaaya pacchaa nikkhamati, and his chief of army arranges the divisions of the army and departs afterwards, eva.m saddhammacakkavatti bhagavaa bhikkhusa"nghaparivaaro pa.thama.m nikkhamati, evenso departs the Blessed One first, followed by the community of monks, tassa bhagavato pari.naayakaratanabhuuto dhammasenaapati ima.m kicca.m katvaa sabbapacchaa nikkhamati. and the General of the Dhamma who is the adviser of the Blessed One performs his duty and departs after all the other monks. so eva.m nikkhanto tasmi.m divase a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisinna.m raahulabhadda.m addasa. When he went out on that day he saw "Lucky Rahula", seated at the foot of a certain tree. tena vutta.m ``pacchaa gacchanto addasaa''ti. Therefore it was said, ³He saw him when he came afterwards². ****** English: He visited the young monks who were newly ordained and exhorted them, saying, "Rejoice, friends, be not discontented with the Teachings which contain a practice that is most excellent in substance.² When he had acted in that way he went on his almsround after all the other monks. Just as the wheelturning monarch, wherever he wants to go, departs first, followed by his army, and his chief of army arranges the divisions of the army and departs afterwards, evenso departs the Blessed One first, followed by the community of monks, and the General of the Dhamma who is the adviser of the Blessed One performs his duty and departs after all the other monks. When he went out on that day he saw "Lucky Rahula", seated at the foot of a certain tree. Therefore it was said, ³He saw him when he came afterwards². Nina. 25487 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Larry, op 20-09-2003 00:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I still don't understand. Is the sensitive matter of sense bases > different from the bhavanga stream? What is the function of this > sensitive matter? N:sensitive matter of sense bases are just rupas, they cannot experience anything, they do not feel. Perhaps the words sensitive matter may create confusion. The sensebases are rupas which are capable to receive objects which are also rupas, when these impinge on the relevant sense-bases. Thus, eyesense is rupa, but it is capable to receive visible object so that there are conditions for the eye-door process cittas which can experience visible object. The Abhidhamma is very precise and it is confusing to mix it with notions we have on account of science. We may have intellecual understanding of nama and rupa, but it is difficult not to have a notion of my sensitive body, we confuse nama and rupa. By awareness of either nama or rupa, one at a time, we shall learn more what nama and rupa really are. Bhavangacitta is nama, but it does not experience an object that impinges on one of the six doors. It only experiences it own object which is the same as that experienced at the first moment of life. The last three bhavangacittas before a process begins have been given different names indicating that they are the last ones. That is all. See ADL ch 12. Nina. 25488 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:01pm Subject: Re: Formations - 'choice' - the creative power of Intention? Hello Htoo Naing and all, I think I was confusing a couple of the meanings of formations (sankhara). Thanks for making it clearer. (I see that Nyanatiloka give four different meanings). http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Christine and all, > > Paticcasamuppada or dependent origination is a circle without any > start or beginning. But conventionally it is discussed on Avijja or > Moha or ignorance to start with. > > '' Avijja Paccaya Sankhara > Sankhara Paccaya Vinnana > Vinnana Paccaya Nama-Rupam.....Sambhavanti.'' > > Absence of Vijja is Avijja. As there is no Vijja Nana, Sankhara are > being done. Sankhara rae '' delibrate actions ''. Any Sankhara > comprises Cetana Cetasika or volition or delibrate will. So it can be > said that Cetana is wilful action. > > All Kammapatha( Kamma-generating ) actions at three Kammadvara of > Kaya, Vaci and Mano are are always always accompanied by Cetana or > volition. > > I hope this message is clear enough to understand and further > opinions are welcome. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 25489 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, I'll reply in text: Jon: "We agreed in a previous post that only if kusala of one kind or another is being developed can concentration that is kusala be developed. In other words, when kusala is developed, so is concentration that is kusala." Larry: I agree that when kusala is being developed then the concentration cetasika that accompanies every citta is kusala. J: "So for example, when kusala of the level of samatha is developed, so is the kusala concentration that supports jhana (absorption concentration). Any disagreement here?" L: I would say concentration cetasika and jhana are quite different. Samatha is a kusala cetasika but it takes much more than that to develop jhana. Jhana requires samatha and other kusala intentions as well as concentration, but samatha does not necessarily lead to jhana. I wouldn't say when kusala, which always includes samatha, is developed so is access concentration necessarily developed. If samatha is focused-on exclusively, possibly we could say access concentration is being developed. We would need that exclusivity. Even if something else were focused on exclusively with the intention of developing some kusala citta or cetasika we might possibly say access concentration is being developed. But so far we haven't been able to find this in any of the books. How's that? Larry 25490 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:47pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. -- Dear Htoo, This is very interesting. - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: >> A single female who has sex with a single male is free of sexual > misconduct because she does possess her sexuality. The reverse is not > true as sexuality is controlled by owners. > > _____________________ I asked ajahn sujin this very question lat year and she gave pretty much the same answer to what your entire post said. I was surprised because I had thought that if a woman is no longer living with her parents and past the age of consent then if she freely went with a man that this was not wrongful conduct for the man. Do you have any other comments about this area. Could there be some difference depending on the society. In our western world woman who have left home are not considered to be owned by the society . Whereas in say a muslim society they would be considered so and then it would be surely breaking the precept? In the suttas it gives an example of a man who has paid for a prostitute. If another man then seduces the woman he is committing sin but it seems the man who paid is not. RobertK 25491 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 6:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply, but I didn't understand what is the function of sensitive matter? Are you saying rupa impinges on the sensitive matter then the very same rupa interrupts the bhavanga stream? If so, how does it get there? Wouldn't that rupa's duration ('life') be longer than the maximum 17 cittas because first it has to impinge? Does the rupa not exist before it impinges? Larry 25492 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:50pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa --- Dear Azita and Dan, Not much to add to Dan's very accurate (as far as I understand ) letter. ""Getting the direction of the arrow backwards > and thinking that wisdom is developed by adhering to precepts and > rituals is called silabbataparamasa."" This sums it up. Silabbataparamasa (thanks for spelling correction) is like the manifestation of wrong view. Until we are sotapanna,and depending on the degree of self view,there will be aspects of silabbataparamasa. So we can understand that it is more common than we probably realise. I think if there is developing understanding than then what seems like subtle s-b now will probably be like a glaring wrong practice in the future. On the example you mention: ." Sujin talks about s-p on a > > very momentary level and at that level I am a bit lost." it will depend on what degree we think 'we' are controlling dhammas, like sati and panna as to whether or how strong s-b is. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Azita, > I hope you don't mind if I take a stab at your questions... [We are > fortunate to have Rob around to correct me if I screw up.] > > Q: Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? > --> Dan: Not necessarily, but if you believe that liberation can come > about by adhering to the 5 precepts, that would be silabbataparamasa. > > It is good to adhere to the precepts because breaking them can lead > to tremendous suffering for both the doer and the done to's, but this > is substantially different from saying that following the precepts is > in any way the development of wisdom or leads to liberation. In fact, > the arrow between wisdom and precepts points the other way -- one > with refined wisdom does not break precepts, but adhering to precepts > does not lead to wisdom. Getting the direction of the arrow backwards > and thinking that wisdom is developed by adhering to precepts and > rituals is called silabbataparamasa. This remains true whether those > precepts are the pañca sila; a rule like "I will catch the present > moment by trying to catch the present moment"; or a ritual like > sitting in a corner with eyes closed, legs crossed, and attention > directed to a particular sensation or concept. > > Azita: I think the precepts can be broken easily... > --> Dan: Agreed. But, keeping the 5 precepts is very important, so we > should try hard to do so even though it is extremely difficult to do. > However, thinking such efforts (no matter how important and valuable > and good they may be) will lead to liberation is silabbataparamasa. > > Dan > > > 25493 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:56pm Subject: A Non-Materialist View of Rupas Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/21/03 9:29:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for your reply, but I didn't understand what is the function of > sensitive matter? > > Are you saying rupa impinges on the sensitive matter then the very same > rupa interrupts the bhavanga stream? If so, how does it get there? > Wouldn't that rupa's duration ('life') be longer than the maximum 17 > cittas because first it has to impinge? Does the rupa not exist before > it impinges? > > Larry > ======================== Here's my phenomenalist take on this issue. It is, of course, speculative, and I present it here as an approach to the question that is plausible to me, but not as something I know for a fact to be true. (I note, BTW, how quickly I have violated my intention to "cut back" on e-mail posting! Well, two posts today besides this one, one of which was very brief, and the other being the "cutting Back" post - so I guess I'm cutting back a *little*! ;-) This particular business of viewing "matter" as something objectively "out there" is something that I consider to be a serious error leading to substantialist beliefs and a variety of pseudo-problems, and I'm afraid I find commenting on this subject nearly irresistable. (I hope I can manage to get myself better in check with posting!! ;-) Now to the issue. I think the problem lies in thinking that 'rupa' means "matter" in the sense of an alleged substance "out there in the physical world". Rupas, as I see it, are of two sorts: 1) certain types of objects of awareness, the so-called material forms of the well known five types; they constitute the objective aspect of physical-contact events, and 2) the capacities within a namarupic stream to permit the arising within that stream of rupas of the first type; i.e., the so-called physical sense doors; they constitute the "sensing mechanisms" involved in physical-contact events. Until the conditions for the arising of a rupa-object are all in place, the rupa doesn't exist as an actuality for a given namarupic stream, but only as a potentiality coming closer and closer to being actual as the necessary conditions, one by one, fall into place. The capacity within a given namarupic stream for such a rupic potentiality (of a particular sort - visual, auditory, etc) to become an actual rupa (to arise) when the conditions are all in place is what a sense door is, and that capacity/faculty being operative is itself one of the needed conditions for the arising of a rupa. Certain physical events, actually sequences of one or more physical-contact events, can disable a sense-door capacity; should that happen, a necessary condition for the arising of rupas of that sort is missing, and rupas of that type will no longer arise unless that capacity is restored. But, with sense doors functioning, when a rupa-object *does* arise the discerning consciousness does as well. The coming together of rupa, sense door, and discerning consciousness is contact. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25494 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 8:47pm Subject: Re: A Non-Materialist View of Rupas Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Howard, My position is that I think science is paramattha dhamma and I see no indication that the Buddha had a problem with materiality. What he did have a problem with is papa~nca (mental proliferation) and abhidhamma, science, and us email addicts are all equally guilty of that. Bon voyage! Larry 25495 From: Date: Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Mind as Resort Attn: Christine Hi Christine I found the sutta that I was thinking had to do with your past teachers remark. In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 43, Sariputta states... "Friend, these five faculties each have a separate field, a separate domain, and do not experience each others field and domain, that is, the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, and the body faculty. Now, these five faculties, each having a separate field, a separate domain, not experiencing each others field and domain, have mind as their resort, and mind experiences their field and domains." TG 25496 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:58am Subject: Re: Mind as Resort Attn: Christine Hello TG, The Mahavedalla Sutta "The Greater Series of Questions and Answers" is a very interesting sutta. Thanks for continuing your search until you found it.:-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Christine > > I found the sutta that I was thinking had to do with your past teachers > remark. In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 43, Sariputta states... > > "Friend, these five faculties each have a separate field, a separate domain, > and do not experience each others field and domain, that is, the eye faculty, > the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, and the body faculty. > Now, these five faculties, each having a separate field, a separate domain, > not experiencing each others field and domain, have mind as their resort, and > mind experiences their field and domains." > > TG 25497 From: K.L Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mind as Resort Attn: Christine --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello TG, > > The Mahavedalla Sutta "The Greater Series of > Questions and Answers" > is a very interesting sutta. Thanks for continuing > your search until > you found it.:-) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > TGrand458@a... wrote: > > Hi Christine > > > > I found the sutta that I was thinking had to do > with your past > teachers > > remark. In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 43, Sariputta > states... > > > > "Friend, these five faculties each have a separate > field, a > separate domain, > > and do not experience each others field and > domain, that is, the > eye faculty, > > the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue > faculty, and the body > faculty. > > Now, these five faculties, each having a separate > field, a separate > domain, > > not experiencing each others field and domain, > have mind as their > resort, and > > mind experiences their field and domains." > > > > TG > > 25498 From: K.L Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:10am Subject: Fwd: Dharma Discussion Forum > Hi all, > You are invited to join this dharma discussion > forum. > URL: http://triplegem.conforums.com 25499 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:22am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hello Azita, Robert, Dan and all, I understand the concern about silabbata-paramasa though I've not heard it mentioned in relation to the Buddha's Precepts before. I think it really refers to blind attachment to some form of behaviour or belief with no understanding of its aim, or any reflection on its real meaning. Silabbata-paramasa involves believing that the practices will automatically produce a particular benefit like rebirth in a favourable realm. (I could understand also if the concern was about the practice of dana which is often performed in that sense). Scrupulousness regarding compliance with the Training Rules is simply that - faithfull following of the Precepts given to us by the Buddha. He expected nothing less of his disciples. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 25500 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Dear Dan, Rob and Christine, I have found all of your comments helpful, and esp: R: Silabbataparamasa (thanks for spelling correction) is > like the manifestation of wrong view. Until we are sotapanna,and > depending on the degree of self view,there will be aspects of > silabbataparamasa. So we can understand that it is more common than > we probably realise. I think this answers my question, as my concern was that if I thought I could adhere to precepts then that is wrong view, bec there is no 'me' to do this. There can be the intention but that is not the same [to me] as adhereing - am I making sense here? That intention changes from moment to moment, and who can say what the intention will be a any given moment. > > > > Q: Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? > > --> Dan: Not necessarily, but if you believe that liberation can come > > about by adhering to the 5 precepts, that would be > silabbataparamasa. > > > > It is good to adhere to the precepts because breaking them can lead > > to tremendous suffering for both the doer and the done to's, but this > > is substantially different from saying that following the precepts is > > in any way the development of wisdom or leads to liberation. I agree here, I don't believe that sticking to the precepts leads to liberation, but I do believe that if 'I' break a precept and am aware of my action in so doing, then wisdom can know that and if wisdom grows then that is the way to liberation. This is not to say that I keep precepts just so I can break them and be aware!!!!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 25501 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Dear Dan, Rob and Christine, I have found all of your comments helpful, and esp: R: Silabbataparamasa (thanks for spelling correction) is > like the manifestation of wrong view. Until we are sotapanna,and > depending on the degree of self view,there will be aspects of > silabbataparamasa. So we can understand that it is more common than > we probably realise. I think this answers my question, as my concern was that if I thought I could adhere to precepts then that is wrong view, bec there is no 'me' to do this. There can be the intention but that is not the same [to me] as adhereing - am I making sense here? That intention changes from moment to moment, and who can say what the intention will be a any given moment. > > > > Q: Is believing I can adhere to the 5 precepts s-p? > > --> Dan: Not necessarily, but if you believe that liberation can come > > about by adhering to the 5 precepts, that would be > silabbataparamasa. > > > > It is good to adhere to the precepts because breaking them can lead > > to tremendous suffering for both the doer and the done to's, but this > > is substantially different from saying that following the precepts is > > in any way the development of wisdom or leads to liberation. I agree here, I don't believe that sticking to the precepts leads to liberation, but I do believe that if 'I' break a precept and am aware of my action in so doing, then wisdom can know that and if wisdom grows then that is the way to liberation. This is not to say that I keep precepts just so I can break them and be aware!!!!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 25502 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:23am Subject: double messages! Dear Group, Apologies for the double message, I really cherish the idea you have, Jim, of going to a solitary place with no phone and NO computer!! Cheers folks, Azita. 25503 From: Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:39am Subject: Re: A Non-Materialist View of Rupas Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi, Larry - A quickie: In a message dated 9/21/03 11:48:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > My position is that I think science is paramattha dhamma and I see no > indication that the Buddha had a problem with materiality. What he did > have a problem with is papa~nca (mental proliferation) and abhidhamma, > science, and us email addicts are all equally guilty of that. Bon > voyage! > > Larry > ======================== You are right about papa~nca, and abhidhamma, science, and email! Thank you especially for the papa~nca reminder. BTW, the eye organ and sensitive eye matter are much like trees and the chlorophyll in the leaves - not imagined or made up out of whole cloth, but concept-only, pa~n~natti, or so I see it. With metta, Howard P.S. Thank you for the "bon voyage". Now I just have to ease up on postcards home! ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25504 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry I didn't mean to suggest that when samatha is developed so is access concentration (my apologies if my last post was not as clear as it could have been on this point). I was rather trying to point out that access concentration cannot be developed without the development of samatha, so that if samatha is being developed then so are the necessary conditions for access/absorption concentration to arise at some time in the future (other necessary conditions also being in place). Is this how you see it? CMA Ch. IX makes a clear connection between samatha bhavana and jhana. Samatha bhavana is not so much a particular cetasika as a particular (kusala) mindstate, although this mindstate is accompanied by certain (sobhana) cetasikas and in particular by pannaa of the appropriate level. As such it is included among the bhaavanaa of daana, siila and bhaaavanaa, the 3 kinds of 'meritorious action' (punna-kiriya-vatthu). Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > L: I would say concentration cetasika and jhana are quite > different. > Samatha is a kusala cetasika but it takes much more than that to > develop > jhana. Jhana requires samatha and other kusala intentions as well > as concentration, but samatha does not necessarily lead to jhana. I > wouldn't say when kusala, which always includes samatha, is > developed so > is access concentration necessarily developed. If samatha is > focused-on > exclusively, possibly we could say access concentration is being > developed. We would need that exclusivity. Even if something else > were > focused on exclusively with the intention of developing some kusala > citta or cetasika we might possibly say access concentration is > being > developed. But so far we haven't been able to find this in any of > the books. 25505 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Dear LC, Thanks for your interest. I will try to sort them out. Here are my inline text reply to your post. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing > I appreciate your great metta ! --------------------------- LC : > So let me talk about lobha as one of paramattha dhammas. Lobha does exist in ordinary beings and will be eradicated the moment when arahatta magga citta arises. So where is the lobha before arahatta magga citta arises? Where is the potenciality to arise ? ( LC ) ---------------------------- Htoo : Mr Lobha is very greedy. Everyone knows how greedy he is. He feels happily all his senses. He likes to see good sights and visions. He likes to hear good sounds. He likes to smell good fragnance. He likes to eats dilicious food. He likes to handle, touch, stay in agreeable body environments. He feels happily all senses. Moreover, he tries to chase them. He delibrately chase them. Tries to get them. When he cannot obtain what he wants he is still craving for them. Everyone understands him and sees him as he is showing his emotions evidently. Mr Ordinary is an ordinary man. He is not as greedy as Mr Lobha. He is content with what he obtains. No one knows whether he is craving for something. But he himself knows that he is sometimes craving. Mr Good is well learned person. He learned every possible Dhamma. And he does practice and even achieves to some extent. He sees himself as free of Lobha as he is quite content with the stage he is in. Everyone accepts him as a good man free of Lobha. He himself sees he is almost free of Lobha. One day an opportunity arises for him. It is quite fascinating and promising in terms of sensuality. All of a sudden, Lobha arises and leads him to take that opportunity. Before Arahatta Magga, that person may be Puthujana or Sotapam or Sakadagam or Anagam. ( This means just for time factor_ Just before Arahatta Magga a person must have been an Anagami Phala Puggala ). He may have Jhana and he may enjoy it. This Lobha is difficult to see. When he is in Vipassana practice, there is no Lobha. But when he is in his Jhana, he may like his Jhana. This is a possibility of arising of Lobha. Potential means possibility of arising when circumstances favour. If not favour it may not arise. When not arising say for a day, then he is free of Lobha a whole day. There is no Lobha on that day. But Anusaya is there. Anusaya is not Paramattha. When Lobha arises, a Paramattha Dhamma arises and when disappears, Paramattha Dhamma disappears. But no Anusaya arises or falls away. But it exist not as a Paramattha Dhamma.( Htoo ) -------------------------- LC: > As long as lobha or the potenciality exists, it must exist (((Yes. /Htoo))) (repeatedly arise and dissapear) ((( But there is time when it does not arise/Htoo ))) somewhere even when it does not arise to our sense-doors and mind-door. There shoud exist behind sense- doors and mind-doors the lobha/ potenciality which will have the immediate causes for its arising. Otherwise there is no difference on lobha between arhants and ordinary beings when lobha of ordinary beings do not arise. ( LC ) ------------------------ Htoo : Lobha has different degrees. Lobha of kings, queens, ministers, presidents, prime ministers, leaders, heads, rich people, millionaires, handsome or beautiful people, educated people, high blooded people, and any people with the reverse or in between will have different degrees. Lobha of Puthujana, Lobha of Sotapam, Lobha of Sakadagam will differs each other. Anagams still have Lobha. When it is not arising, the possibility is called as Anusaya. But since they have been Anagams, Lobha may not arise and they may become Arahats without ever arising of Lobha in between Anagami Phala Cittas and Arahatta Magga Citta. This matter can be seen in case of those who attained Arahatta Magga on the same day when they were Puthujanas such as the time after the preaching of The Buddha. Lobha has no time to arise from the start of preaching to the end of the preaching when they become Arahats. Even though Lobha did not arise, Anusaya exist. In some Puggala Lobha may arise in between Puthujana state and Arahatta Magga. ( Htoo ) ---------------------------- LC: > Where is the lobha or the potenciality ?( LC ) ----------------------------- Htoo : It does not arise. So it is nowhere. As once I said, it is not in the stock. But the potentiality exists. Potentiality is not a Paramattha Dhamma. ( Htoo ) -------------------- > Looking forward to hearing from you all !! > from LC 25506 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:42am Subject: Re: Question again .Where is our inactive cetasikas? Quote For Anusaya-s Dear LC, Swan, Rob and all, I hope the following answers will help a lot in solving posted questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > Dear Suan Lu Zaw > Thank you for your reply ! > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" > wrote: > > Dear Saya Htootinnaing, Lokuttaracitta, Robert, Mike and all > > How are you? > > Suan Lu Zaw ----------------------------- LC: > Can you say that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" > does not exist anywhere? ( LC ) ----------------------------- Htoo : This sentence needs to be clear.But see below please. There are four Magga Cittas. 1. Sotapatti Magga eradicates 1.Ditthi and 2. Vicikiccha 2. Sakadagami Magga makes Akusala much much more thinner. 3. Anagami Magga eradicates 1. Dosa 4. Arahatta Magga eradicates all Kilesa including Lobha and Moha. Lobha, Dosa , and Moha are roots.One or more of these roots support Akusala Dhamma. And Adosa, Alobha and Amoha of Kusala origions are also roots and support Kusala Dhamma. In Arahats there are only Avyakata Hetukas called Alobha ( Avyakata Hetuka ), Adosa ( Avyakata Hetuka ) and Amoha ( Avyakata Hetuka ). ( Htoo ) --------------------------- LC: If you can, it means the magga-citta eradicate " what has not been > eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist anywhere.This > sounds quite illogical.( LC ) --------------------------- Htoo : These setences sounds like one of the speaking strategies of 10, called '' Paddy stalk reaping method ''. Arahatta Magga Citta eradicates ' what has not been eradicated by Anagami Magga, Sakadagami Magga, and Sotapatti Magga Citta'. Lobha and Moha are not eradicated by Sotapatti Magga or Sakadagami Magga or Anagami Magga. But when they are not arising they are nowhere. This means they do not exist anywhere at that particular moments when they are absent. But there does exist a potential to arise these if conditions and circumstances favour. This is called Anusaya. If not favour, they will not arise and if favour they may arise. I hope this is entirely logical. Dhamma is to be practised. Dhamma is not just for logical thinking. Sutamaya Panna and Cintamaya Panna do not excel Bhavanamaya Panna. Arahatta Magga is Bhavanamaya Panna. All Magga Cittas and Phala Cittas cannot be attained by just logical thinking. ( Htoo ) ---------------------- LC: > If you can not, does not it follow that "what has not been eradicated > by the magga-citta" does exist somewhere ?(LC) ------------------------ Htoo: Dhamma is not for the battle of logic but for those who wish to be liberated. The statement '' _'What has not been eradicated by the Magga Citta (this must not be Arahatta Magga Citta )'_ does exist somewhere'' is totally wrong. This reveals that the idea of stock is still there. What has not been eradicated by the first three Magga Cittas means un- eradicated Cetasikas like Lobha, Moha, Mana,etc. When they are not arising, they exist nowhere. But potentiality is there. Anusaya is there as long as Arahatta Magga does not arise. (Htoo ) ----------------------------- LC : > And where is the " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" > eradicated by the magga-citta ?( LC ) ----------------------------- Htoo : When they arise, they are there but when they are not arising they are nowhere. There is no stock. ( Htoo ) ----------------------------- LC: > Lobha does not arise as his/her cetasika even for moments before the magga-citta arises as well as at the moment when the magga-citta arises. However I think that lobha should exist somewhere in his/her nama when it is eradicated by his/ her arahatta magga-citta.( LC ) ---------------------------------- Htoo : That somewhere may be anusaya. But they are nowhere.( Htoo ) ----------------------------------- LC : > Otherwise where is lobha eradicated by the magga-citta? Or what is > eradicated by the magga-citta? > > > Looking forward to receiving clear explanations from anyone ! > > from LC -------------------------------- Htoo : What are eradicated by each Magga Citta have been delineated above. I hope this message is crystal clear to all. If still there is any query, please do not hesitate. We all possibly can sort them out. May all beings free from any confusion. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 25507 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:12am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Robert, In case of prostitution, the man who paid is free of misconduct provided he is not married. ( If yes, his wife will suffer and this is what matter and so he will be guilty of misconduct even though he paid for that particular sex). If another man involved, he was doing sexual misconduct. If both partners ( the man and the prostitute ) are unmarried, and the man pays for the sex, they are free of misconduct. If men are married, the prostitute will be guilty of sexual misconduct. Almost all prostitutes will never consider these things. Difference is the shape of societies may ( may ) effect these aspect. For single female who is over the age of consent are still governed by some authority. But if the society ( mentally ) accept the act of living together, that act must be approved by some outside authority. Western living together may be equivalent to eastern marriage. The only difference is aspect of law. This is for basic precept. Someone practising Samatha or Vipassana will not do any unlawful sex. If he did, he was committing with Lobha Citta called, '' Somanassa Sahagatam Ditthi Vippayutta Asankharika Citta ''. Because he was aware of what is unlawful sex and sexual misconduct. The lay practitioner may have lawful sex. But as he is practising Vipassana his Lobha will be different from those who are not practising Vipassana. Htoo Naing -------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > -- > Dear Htoo, > This is very interesting. > - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > >> A single female who has sex with a single male is free of sexual > > misconduct because she does possess her sexuality. The reverse is > not > > true as sexuality is controlled by owners. > > > > _____________________ > I asked ajahn sujin this very question lat year and she gave pretty much > the same answer to what your entire post said. > I was surprised because I had thought that if a woman is no longer > living with her parents and past the age of consent then if she freely > went with a man that this was not wrongful conduct for the man. > Do you have any other comments about this area. > Could there be some difference depending on the society. In our > western world woman who have left home are not considered to be > owned by the society . Whereas in say a muslim society they would be > considered so and then it would be surely breaking the precept? > In the suttas it gives an example of a man who has paid for a > prostitute. If another man then seduces the woman he is committing sin > but it seems the man who paid is not. > RobertK 25508 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:52am Subject: The Meaning Of Eradication Of Anusayas With No Address: To Lokuttaracitta Dear Lokuttaracitta and all How are you? Lokuttaracitta asked: "Can you say that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does not exist anywhere?" I answer Yes. LC continued to speculate: "If you can, it means the magga-citta eradicate " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist anywhere.This sounds quite illogical." It is true and logical even though it sounds illogical. The eradication by maggacitta at the moment of maggañaa.na-s does not require the eradicable cetasika-s to be present (pahaatabba cetasika- s) as objects (aaramma.na-s). LC also wrote: "Lobha does not arise as his/her cetasika even for moments before the magga-citta arises as well as at the moment when the magga-citta arises." LC got it right by writing the above, the only statement that is true. :-) But, LC continued to speculate: "However I think that lobha should exist somewhere in his/her nama when it is eradicated by his/ her arahatta magga-citta." Please do not think like that. It is the Wrong Thinking (micchaa sa`nkkappo). As you might be well aware of, cetasika-s such as lobho are mental associates. A mental associate means just that - it cannot be dissociated / separated from a relevant consciousness arising at the present moment. When a consciousness and its mental associates arise, we cannot pinpoint their location, their whereabout. Even when we are observing a particular mental associate by the practice of vippasanaa / satipa.t.thaana, it is wrong to think that the mental associate in question exists somewhere. The only correct way to think and say about a mental associate is the time of their arising. And, the time when it can arise is the present moment only, the real time only. Therefore, the following types of questions are wrongly put: 1. "Does not it follow that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does exist somewhere? 2. "And where is the " what has not been eradicated by the magga- citta" eradicated by the magga-citta ?" 3. "Otherwise where is lobha eradicated by the magga-citta? However, the following question asked by LC is okay. "What is eradicated by the magga-citta?" The answer is that the eradicable mental associates such as lobho are eradicated by the maggacitta-s. Now, let's examine the scenario that the magga-citta eradicate " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist anywhere. As I argued above, an eradicable mental associate can appear only in the present moment in the real time without existing anywhere. LC, do you understand the above statement? Shall I continue? The present moment or the real time means the time when (Yasmim Samaye, as the Buddha described it) that mental associate arises. We also know that eradicable mental associates accompany only the unhealthy consciousnesses (akusala cittaani). What if we allowed only the healthy consciousnesses (kusala cittaani) to arise by the practice of recollection / mindfulness? If we were successful in bringing about only the healthy consciousnesses, the mental time we enjoy would be without any unhealthy mental associates. Conversely, we would have no time for any unhealthy mental associate such as lobho to accompany our consciousness. LC, do you follow what I have been telling you so far? Shall I continue? If the practice of recollection / mindfulness were able to make our consciousness healthy most of the time and keep it free from unhealthy mental associates, suppose that we liked it and wanted to make it permanent. That is when we went all the way to attain maggacitta-s. To make a long story short, when we finally attained Arahatta magga ñaa.na, our Arahatta consciousness would be pure and healthy all the time. Put it another way, we were no longer capable of giving latent unhealthy mental associates the time and the chance to arise because our mental time was totally Arahattized. Thus, this state of living with the Arahattized consciousness amounted to eradication of all the latent unhealthy mental associates such as lobho, doso and moho for good. I hope that my explanations help. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: Dear Suan Lu Zaw Thank you for your reply ! ___________________ Can you say that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does not exist anywhere? If you can, it means the magga-citta eradicate " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist anywhere.This sounds quite illogical. If you can not, does not it follow that "what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" does exist somewhere ? And where is the " what has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" eradicated by the magga-citta ? Lobha does not arise as his/her cetasika even for moments before the magga-citta arises as well as at the moment when the magga-citta arises. However I think that lobha should exist somewhere in his/her nama when it is eradicated by his/ her arahatta magga-citta. Otherwise where is lobha eradicated by the magga-citta? Or what is eradicated by the magga-citta? Looking forward to receiving clear explanations from anyone ! > > from LC 25510 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:14am Subject: Tiika Vis. 14, last section Tiika 14, last section (continued) Relevant Visuddhimagga text (14): ....In the spheres of work invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires without hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is reasoned. ' (In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt (heard). 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development. ya.m evaruupi.m anulomika.m khanti.m di.t.thi.m ruci.m muti.m pekkha.m dhammanijjhaanakhanti.m parato assutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati cintaamayaa pa~n~naa...pe... sutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati sutamayaa pa~n~naa. "sabbaapi samaapannassa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti" Tiika: words: khamati: endure, approve of, indulge in nijjhaana: understanding, insight, indulgence. nijjhaayati: meditate, reflect on. khanti: patience, acceptance. Tiika text: sabbaanipi etaani kaara.naani khamati da.t.thu.m sakkotiiti khanti. It accepts, it is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance. passatiiti di.t.thi. rocetiiti ruci. munaatiiti muti. pekkhatiiti pekkhaa. It sees, it is view. It approves, it is approval. It knows, it is understanding. It observes, it is consideration. te ca kammaayatanaadayo dhammaa etaaya nijjhaayamaanaa nijjhaana.m khamantiiti dhammanijjhaanakhanti. And these subjects beginning with the spheres of work that are reflected on incline to understanding, and thus it is acceptance of the understanding of them. parato asutvaa pa.tilabhatiiti a~n~nassa upadesavacana.m asutvaa sayameva cintento pa.tilabhati. As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this means that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another¹s words of instruction. aya.m vuccatiiti aya.m cintaamayaa pa~n~naa naama vuccati. The words, ³this is called², mean, this is called understanding consisting of reasoning. saa panesaa abhi~n~naataana.m bodhisattaanameva uppajjati. But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. tatthaapi saccaanulomika~naa.na.m dvinna.myeva bodhisattaana.m antimabhavikaana.m. And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two kinds of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. sesapa~n~naa sabbesampi puuritapaaramiina.m mahaapa~n~naana.m uppajjati. The remaining understanding arises in all those with great understanding who have fulfilled the perfections. parato sutvaa pa.tilabhatiiti kammaayatanaadiini parena kariyamaanaani vaa kataani vaa disvaapi As to the words, he acquires by hearing it from another, this means: all that has been acquired by seeing spheres of work being done or having done by someone else, parassa kathayamaanassa vacana.m sutvaapi aacariyasantike uggahetvaapi pa.tiladdhaa or by hearing someone else¹s words, or by learning under a teacher, sabbaa parato sutvaava pa.tiladdhaa naamaati veditabbaa. all this should be understood as acquired by hearing from another. samaapannassaati samaapattisama"ngissa, nidassanamatta~nceta.m. As to the words, of one who has attained, this means, the understanding of someone who has an attainment, and this is just the explanation. vipassanaamaggapa~n~naa idha ``bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti adhippetaa. Here insight knowledge of the Path has been pointed out as understanding consisting of development. ****** English: It accepts, it is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance. It sees, it is view. It approves, it is approval. It knows, it is understanding. It observes, it is consideration. And these subjects beginning with the spheres of work that are reflected on incline to understanding, and thus it is acceptance of the understanding of them. As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this means that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another¹s words of instruction. The words, ³this is called², mean, this is called understanding consisting of reasoning. But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two kinds of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. The remaining understanding arises in all those with great understanding who have fulfilled the perfections. As to the words, he acquires by hearing it from another, this means: all that has been acquired by seeing spheres of work being done or having done by someone else, or by hearing someone else¹s words, or by learning under a teacher, all this should be understood as acquired by hearing from another. As to the words, of one who has attained, this means, the understanding of someone who has an attainment, and this is just the explanation. Here insight knowledge of the Path has been pointed out as understanding consisting of development. _________ * In the Sammåsambuddhas and in the Solitary Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas. ***** Nina. 25511 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. Tiika 14, second section Hi Larry, See the last sentence of Tiika 14, last section. Later on I shall answer more. op 20-09-2003 00:32 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I am understanding this as saying there are three kinds of understanding > as reasoning, learning from another, and jhana. All the insight > knowledges are reasoned. Is this how you see it? > > Are "learning" and "having attained jhana" also concerned with > individual and general characteristics but not on the level of insight? 25512 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Egypt Hi James, Just a tip, learn Arabic from an Egyptian teacher and start talking to people on the street and at the local markets. It will make all the difference, try it. You will see that there are many nice people around. Language is a bridge. Nina. op 21-09-2003 14:21 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I have not written anything about Egypt in a while because I am just > finding it to be a hopelessly stupid, backward, and apathetic > society. 25513 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo ,Suan and everyone Dear Htoo Naing ,Suan Lu Zaw and everyone. Thank you very very much for your great metta ! Sorry, I deleted my post once and have just renewed it for convenience. > I hope this is entirely logical.Dhamma is to be practised.Dhamma is > not just for logical thinking.Sutamaya Panna and Cintamaya Panna do > not excel Bhavanamaya Panna. Arahatta Magga is Bhavanamaya Panna. > All Magga Cittas and Phala Cittas can't be attained by just logical > thinking. ( Htoo ) > Dhamma is not for the battle of logic but for those who wish to be > liberated. I agree with you ! Please remember I wrote in my first post on this theme " Let me ask you a basic question, even though it must be nonsense from a practical viewpoint of samata and vipassana bhavana,," I just do like to clarify what are unclear to me before I go into retreat. But we should not forget there might be a being whose paramis has been accumulated to the extent that he/she can become an ariya just by mere contact with Buddha Dhamma ,even though it might be unlikely possibility. Ofcourse I am not such a being! > Potential means possibility of arising when circumstances favour.If is free of Lobha a whole day. There is no Lobha on that day. But > Anusaya is there. Anusaya is not Paramattha. When Lobha arises, a > Paramattha Dhamma arises and when disappears, Paramattha Dhamma > disappears.But no Anusaya arises or falls away. But it exist not as > a Paramattha Dhamma.( Htoo ) ***************************************************** > Now,let's examine the scenario that the magga-citta eradicate "what > has not been eradicated by the magga-citta" which does not exist > anywhere. > >As I argued above, an eradicable mental associate can appear only in > the present moment in the real time without existing anywhere.( Suan) I see what you(Htoo and Suan) mean. Sorry for having used your time so much, but please let me continue by changeing the way I ask you for possibly final clarification. What is the definition of "exist" in theravada tradition when it's subject is each of nama and rupa ? What is it when it's subjetct is nibbana? What is it when it's subject is a pannatti ? What is it when it's subject is an anusaya ? Looking forward to hearing from you again ! from LC 25514 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] About Egypt Hi Nina and James, James, hope things will go well with you soon in Egypt. Nina, that is a great tip! Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > Just a tip, learn Arabic from an Egyptian teacher and start talking to > people on the street and at the local markets. It will make all the > difference, try it. You will see that there are many nice people around. > Language is a bridge. > Nina. 25515 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:20pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi all, I am not a pali expert. What does "silabbataparamasa" mean? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Azita, Robert, Dan and all, > > I understand the concern about silabbata-paramasa though I've not [snip] 25516 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:37pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hello Victor, Below are the meanings from Nyanatiloka's dictionary. "sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.), and one of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti). For definition, s. upádána. upádána: 'clinging', according to Vis.M. XVII, is an intensified degree of craving (tanhá, q.v.). The 4 kinds of clinging are: sensuous clinging (kámupádána), clinging to views (ditthupádána), clinging to mere rules and ritual (sílabbatupádána), clinging to the personaljty-belief (atta-vádupádána). <<<>>> 3) "What is the clinging to mere rules and ritual? The holding firmly to the view that through mere rules and ritual one may reach purification: this is called the clinging to mere rules and ritual". http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I am not a pali expert. What does "silabbataparamasa" mean? > > Peace, > Victor 25517 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hello all, One also wonders - what about a male who has sex with a male (unpaid)? Or a male who has sex with a male (paid)? Or a single female who hires a male prostitute? Or serial monogamy? Women as property? ... Interesting and quaint ideas from long ago and far away ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25518 From: Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "I was rather trying to point out that access concentration cannot be developed without the development of samatha, so that if samatha is being developed then so are the necessary conditions for access/absorption concentration to arise at some time in the future (other necessary conditions also being in place). Is this how you see it?" Hi Jon, I agree. On a side note, one of the conditions for developing jhana that I should have mentioned is "skill", see Vism. 16, 17, 18. I'm sure this applies to developing samatha also. Larry 25519 From: Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 14, last section Hi Nina, I see that understanding that arises from attainment of jhana can be Path understanding. Can understanding that arises from hearing also be Path understanding? I'm thinking of Sariputta in particular. Would remembering what was heard also apply? Larry tika 14: As to the words, of one who has attained, this means, the understanding of someone who has an attainment, and this is just the explanation. Here insight knowledge of the Path has been pointed out as understanding consisting of development. 25520 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Dear Victor (and Christine, et al.), Victor asks: I am not a pali expert. What does "silabbataparamasa" mean? I see that Ñanatiloka glosses it as "attachment to mere rules and ritual", but I don't see where he gets the "mere" from. sila (behavior, moral practice, code of morality) + -bbata (good works and ceremonial observances) + paramasa (taking hold of) Attachment to rules and rituals is one of the three fetters that is broken by the sotapanna. The other two (wrong view and doubt) are closely related. Dan 25521 From: Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:26am Subject: New translations of the Satipatthana Sutta Hello everyone, in an effort to support my insights I have recently been concentrating my studies on the various suttas in the Pali canon that are dedicated to meditation, consciousness and cognition. As some of you may know I have had a conflict over the use of words 'consciousness' and 'mind' in the translations that have been available to us. I have spent some time examining these suttas in search of the intent that I believe was behind the Buddha's discourses, and I have informed my study through reflecting upon my meditation practice. This reflection and contemplation has confirmed my belief that our language of consciousness and cognition is not properly represented in the present translations of this ancient document. A classic example of what I believe is the incorrect use of our language of gnosis, consciousness and cognition is in the use of the word 'consciousness' which too often seems to imply that through meditation we are seeking an unconscious state, which cannot be true. Also the Pali term 'citta' is often translated as 'mind.' Mind in the English language means " The faculty of thinking, reasoning, and applying knowledge." Also there are numerous unsuccessful compound words used in these translations, like 'eye-consciousness' which should be replaced by something that uses our language more successfully, like 'visual perception.' If you examine these recent uploads I believe you will find them far more readable and accessible. And, for ease of use they are in Acrobat Reader PDF format. I also find the translations of the canon far too heavily waited on the male sex. Therefore I have removed many of the gender specifying references as well. The files uploaded are: Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN 22) Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) Bahiya Sutta, Udana I.10 They are available at this URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/files/ Blessings to you and all, &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Suffering can indeed be ended in this very lifetime Take refuge Let the Four Noble Truths be your guiding-light Follow the Eighth Fold Path, and observe the precepts Practice regularly and often, with duration and intensity &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Jeff Brooks editor, Southwest Insight E'letter http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWI_E_letter/ moderator, Ecstatic Buddhism http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/ moderator, Jhana Support Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ 25522 From: Andrew Date: Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > following of the Precepts given to us by the > Buddha. He expected nothing less of his disciples. > Hi Christine I'm not trying to be cute or pedantic but for some reason talk of the Buddha's "expectations" seems problematical to me. An expectation is an anticipation that may or may not be fulfilled - something that seems tied up with dukkha. I don't think the Buddha would have had expectations, certainly not ones that would lead to disappointment if they weren't fulfilled. True, the Precepts were given to us by the Buddha, but so was the whole Dhamma ... so the problem remains: what happens if Precept- following gives rise to wrong action? The whole area is difficult. I recently read Buddha's advice to Rahula - never tell a deliberate lie, not even in jest. (A person capable of telling a deliberate lie is capable of any evil). Then I thought of some people I know who will deliberately lie when they are sober, but cannot maintain the deception when drunk! On the face of it, breaking the 5th Precept would seem to lead to less negligence in that case? Now, I'm sure that's not correct when you can see what is happening at the level of momentary rupa, citta and cetasika. And that, I think, is what needs to be attained - an ability to transcend rules and see what is actually happening. Metta Andrew 25523 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > I agree. On a side note, one of the conditions for developing jhana > that > I should have mentioned is "skill", see Vism. 16, 17, 18. I'm sure > this applies to developing samatha also. I don't think Ch. XIV of Vism can be taken as applying to samatha also. To do so would be to overlook the very important differences between samatha and vipassana. Although both are accompanied by panna, the level of panna and its object, and the final goal/outcome are quite different. In the Vism, Part II (Chs III to XIII) deals with samatha, while Part IV (Chs. XIV to XXIII) deals with vipassana. Getting back to our thread... As I understand it, there is no way to develop jhaana other than by samatha bhaavanaa. In encouraging jhaana, the Buddha was encouraging the development of samatha. Are we agreed? Jon 25524 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Christine (& All on this thread). I’m very grateful to you for raising and persisting with this thread. It’s not easy when the few assumptions and inklings we confidently have about the Buddha’s teachings are questioned and challenged here;-) I think it takes a certain amount of confidence in the value of these teachings to raise points, discuss and not accept any answers unless they make sense for us. I appreciate Victor’s posts in this regard. I’ve found it helpful to consider my very mixed motives in keeping the precepts as best as I can. There is some understanding of the great value, but also aspects of fear, attachment and other less wholesome ideas that creep in easily as well. I think as Azita pointed out, knowing the various mind-states and other phenomena experienced is most precious of all. For most of us, we’re not really being tested in difficult circumstances as Howard suggested. There are no scorpions or tigers or serious challenges. I may well think it’s unlikely I’d ever have cause to drink alcohol again in this lifetime,not having done so for 30 years, but we never know. Some of us have known monks keep excellent sila for many, many years and then succomb to temptations on disrobing for example. When I stayed in the temple in Sri Lanka, it was easy for me to keep 8 precepts perfectly, no temptation to utter any gossip or joke or exaggerate a story even as I wasn’t speaking most the time! Later, working in London with delinquent adolescents, all the old accumulated tendencies for harsh and frivolous speech became apparent again. Should one avoid such situations and live in a temple? I don’t think we need to set another rule. It's better to know the truth than to think one’s beyond such weaknesses. I remember how my brothers would tease me as I seemed to behave so perfectly on my return from Sri Lanka. It was just like the story of the servant who got up later and later to test whether her mistress was really as calm as she appeared;-) Without enough accumulated wisdom, it's just a matter of time and conditions before one 'snaps'. As KenH suggested, if not in this life, what about the next life? As it mentioned in the Minor Readings, for a lay person, the taking of precepts is momentary. If one lapses, one can understand the accumulations and make another undertaking. .... Back to the Jivaka sutta and your original questions on it: --- christine_forsyth wrote: >The sutta says (in part): "Jivaka, when the lay disciple > abstains from destroying living things, taking the not given, from > sexual misconduct, from telling lies, from taking intoxicated and > brewed drinks, with this much he becomes virtuous" > > "Yato kho jãvaka, upàsako pàõàtipàtà pañivirato hoti, adinnàdànà > pañivirato hoti, kàmesu micchàcàrà pañivirato hoti, musàvàdà > pañivirato hoti, suràmerayamajjapamàdaññhànà pañivirato hoti. > Ettàvatà kho jãvaka, upàsako sãlavà hotãti." > > Does 'pañivirato' mean 'abstain'? And does 'abstain' mean 'to > forbear or refrain voluntarily, and especially from an indulgence of > the passions or appetites'? ***** I think we all agree here that ‘abstain’ is being referred to with regard to all the precepts. I understand these lines to mean that a lay-person is virtuous when he follows these precepts entirely. The question for me is whether this suggests a prescription for striving as some suggest or a description of an end result for those with sufficient wisdom developed? In other words, there can only then be no more causes for any further non-abstention as suggested by Dan’s reverse arrow. In other words, I believe it is a description of the one with purified sila or virtue. Just for consideration, we read that the Buddha tells Jivaka that one who has taken reufge in the triple gem is a lay follower and that one who ‘abstains’ from breaking the precepts is a virtuous lay-follower as you point out. Finally, the Buddha then describes a lay follower who has confidence, virtue, gnerosity, visits the Sangha, listens to the Dhamma, listens, considers, recalls, understands the Dhamma and practices accordingly. In addition, this lay follower encourages others in all these regards. Jivaka (Komaarabhacca) is the well-known doctor discussed before (by Num). Jivaka himself would be a perfect example of all these qualities. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/j/jiivaka.htm I believe he was already a sotapanna and gave great support to the Sangha, including building a monastery in Rajagaha and continually providing medical treatment. In other words, it sounds very like a description of Jivaka’s qualities, I think. Similarly, the sutta before this in AN is the one addressed to Mahaanaama the Sakyan. (I can’t find it on line- I’m looking at the PTS transl, Bk of 8s, v (25)0, Mahanama asks identical questions and receives the same replies. Is this because Mahanama needs to be urged to strive to keep the precepts, take refuge and perform good deeds? http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/j/jiivaka.htm (the third Mahanama, the Sakiyan) Again we read that Mahanama already showed great generosity to the Sangha and is included in a list of ‘exemplary lay devotees’. Furthermore, he was a sakadagami, so he also had no need for a prescription as to keeping the 5 precepts. I also think it may be a description of the qualities of one who really understands the meaning of taking refuge, full abstaining from breaking precepts under any circumstances and a model of exemplary lay life. Chris, I think as you say, these suttas can and should be reminders for us to see the slightest faults and the qualities to be developed. Understanding these faults as conditioned phenomena and not-self is most precious of all. Many of us would like to have a system or structure or set of rules to follow, but again I think there can be awareness of the attachment at these times too. I agree with RobertK & Dan when they suggest that subtle clinging to ditthi and rituals can creep in very easily. It can arise when we open a Dhamma text, read a message on DSG or almost anytime. It seems very subtle now for us. As Robert suggested, it may seem not at all subtle as wisdom develops. With great appreciation for your posts and all the traffic they have generated. I think that by raising these points and persisting with the thread you’ll also be doing many lurkers a great favour too who may feel the same but be shy or busy to make the points. It’s certainly been most helpful to me and my comments here are only suggestions for anyone to consider and question;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25525 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Egypt Hi James, Great to know you’re still around;-) --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hey All, > > I have not written anything about Egypt in a while because I am just > finding it to be a hopelessly stupid, backward, and apathetic > society. But those may be just foreigner's reactions/culture shock. > After a while I may get a balanced perspective and then I can make > intelligent observations. Now I think all you would get from me > would be rantings. ..... I don’t have Nina’s linguistic talents and of course when one’s working one has limited time to put into language learning, but in Hong Kong I always found the small efforts I’ve put into speaking Cantonese have been a great help too in settling in and getting over any feelings of ‘me’ and ‘them’. For outgoing people like ourselves, I think it’s particularly helpful. On a Dhamma track, I know you’ve had some overwhelming experiences and health and other difficulties. James, you have a real talent for writing beautifully and also a great appreciation for the Buddha’s teaching. I know you don’t find it very helpful to hear about namas and rupas ad nauseum and ‘akusala cittas’;-). This is why I think you can really be your best teacher by using your humourous writing and incorporating a sutta or two so that you learn a lesson from the experience in the process. In terms of our ‘accumulations’ or habitual responses, we can see that these follow us around the world. The Dhamma is what will help and make a real difference in the long run. I know you feel that if you write anything about your experiences, especially the difficult ones, that it will just sound like a ranting here. On the other hand, this is daily life and the difficulties we face are common - impatience, intolerance, attachment, clinging to self and so on. Are there also examples of kindness, metta and tolerance around? You’ll do everyone a favour, including yourself, if you can find a few aspects of Dhamma to draw on - like some modern James-ish Dhamma Aesop’s Fables with an Egyptian ranting flavour;-). You did the first couple very well and I’d personally be glad to see your further efforts. 'From the heart' rather than 'intelligent observations' is fine. With metta and best wishes for your health and well-being. Sarah ====== 25526 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:37am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Christine, They all are wrong practice called '' Micchacara ''. Miccha is wrong and Cara is practice or act or behaviour. If this practice of wrong things is done in ' Karma ', it may constitue '' Karmesu Micchacara ''. This unusual Lobha ( Tanha ) as a leader of Akusala Dhamma also accompanied by Ahirika ( shamelessness ) and Anottappa (fearlessness ) makes the committers happy in their act. And they assume it as normality. For those who are engaged in higher practice hardly have these problems. But this matter needs to be clear as a basic precept.Before basic precept of sex is discussed let me go a bit deep into the matter. Tahna, Mana, Ditthi are three things that expand the Samsara. Having sex is associated with enormous Tanha. While trying to eradicate subtle Tanha, stopping of these things will not be too difficult. If the act is deviated from normal then there do exist potential of resultant effect. A female single who hires male prostitute and having sex with him is deviated from norm. If that male prostitue is married, that single female will breach the precept even though she paid for sex. If male prostitute is unmarried, as she is a single she MAY not breach. But as a prostitue, if that male has been paid by another female beforehand, then she will possibly breach the precept. What matters is other party. In serial monogamy, it needs to be separately considered. Male having sex with male also has implication of sexual misconduct. If a male is married, he is committing the precept whatever he is receptive or insertive party. Single male having sex with married male also commits the precept whatever he is insertive or receptive partner. The problem arises in case of two single males. Even though it is not clear black or white, it is deviated by norm. They may have their guardians. The guardians may suffer. If suffer, both males are guilty of the act. If the owner or guardian allows and there is no other implication the allowed partner may be free of breaching the precept. In case of male to male sex, paid or unpaid has many implication. Sometimes it may need to be considered and sometimes not. If society accept, one of parties may be assume as female counterpart. In that case, owners needs to allow to have sex. The most important point in these matters is not to affect society, partners and social implication. With Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > One also wonders - what about a male who has sex with a male > (unpaid)? Or a male who has sex with a male (paid)? Or a single > female who hires a male prostitute? Or serial monogamy? > Women as property? ... Interesting and quaint ideas from long ago and > far away ... > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25527 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:07am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo ,Suan and everyone Dear LC, Thanks for your clarifying question. If still in doubt post new questions for that. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > > > Dear Htoo Naing ,Suan Lu Zaw and everyone. > > Thank you very very much for your great metta ! ----------------------------------------------- LC: > Sorry for having used your time so much, but please let me continue > by changeing the way I ask you for possibly final clarification. ------------------------------------------------ Htoo : It's all right. Before I proceed here I would like to say. Do not underestimate own Parami. See in case of '' Sulapanthaka Thera '' in Buddha's time. He was so unintelligent that he could not recite a short verse. But flush of wisdom sudden came to him as he was handling a white cloth given by The Buddha and attained Arahatta Magga along with Jhana and Abhinna. Some did have a good knowledge and very intelligent. But still not free from attachment and so still not liberated. I do not underestimate any one and I am not conceited in case of Dhamma. ( Htoo ) ------------------ LC: > What is the definition of "exist" in theravada tradition when it's > subject is each of nama and rupa ? (LC) ------------------------ Htoo : '' Exist '' may have many meanings. Nama and Rupa exist. In that, even though they are not arising at the time of speaking, they do exist. This '' exist'' means they exist as realities.This can be rephrased as '' There are Nama and Rupa .'' So '' exist'' may mean '' are ''. Nama and Rupa arise and exist. In that Nama and Rupa have arisen and staying there and they are still there, not disappearing. That staying means '' exist ''.( Htoo ) ---------------------------- LC : > What is it when it's subjetct is nibbana?( LC ) -------------------------- Htoo : Nibbana exists. There is Nibbana. ' exist ' = '' is ''in this sentence.( Htoo ) ---------------------- LC: > What is it when it's subject is a pannatti ? ( LC ) -------------------------- Htoo : Panatti does not exist as Paramattha Dhamma. ( Htoo ) ------------------------------ LC: > What is it when it's subject is an anusaya ? ( LC ) ------------------------ Htoo : Anusaya exists. In this '' there is Anusaya ''. So '' exists '' in this sentence means '' is ''. Even though there is Anusaya, there is no Paramattha Akusala at the time of speaking when these Akusala do not arise. I hope this will be a clear answer.( Htoo ) With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------- > Looking forward to hearing from you again ! > > from LC 25528 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Dear All, I would just like to bring to your attention something I've known for awhile about the 5 precept formula that we're all familiar with. It appears to me that after repeated word searches on the Tipitaka and its commentaries there is no such formula per se to be found anywhere in these texts. The closest to it that I can find is the set in the Vibhanga at the beginning of Chapter 14 but here the word 'samaadiyaami' (I undertake) is missing. It seems to me that the Buddha never laid down such a formula for laypersons in the same way that he laid down the 10 precept formula for samaneras as found in the Mahavagga (Vinayapi.taka) and the Khuddakapaa.tha. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Best wishes, Jim 25529 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Dear Sarah, What you say about following the precepts is interesting. You write: "I've found it helpful to consider my very mixed motives in keeping the precepts as best as I can. There is some understanding of the great value, but also aspects of fear, attachment and other less wholesome ideas that creep in easily as well." Can you elaborate on the charactistics of hiri and ottappa and how we can distinguish these wholesome "fears" from the dosa-derived "fear" of which you speak? Dan 25530 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:55am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi, Htoo, > They all are wrong practice called '' Micchacara ''. Miccha is > wrong and Cara is practice or act or behaviour. If this practice of > wrong things is done in ' Karma ', it may constitue '' Karmesu > Micchacara ''. Isn't it kaamesu and not karmesu (from kaama and not karma)? Also, putting in the diacritical marks, micchaacaaraa must be from miccha + aacaara, not miccha + caara because of the long vowel in the middle? Derek. 25531 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi again, I was interested in seeing if I could find any passages where the Buddha explicitly refers to the five as training-precepts (sikkhaapadaani) and found one at AN IX.20 (Velaama Sutta) in a dialogue with Anathapindaka: ". . . though with pious heart he took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and the Order, greater would have been the fruit thereof, had he with pious heart undertaken to keep the precepts [sikkhaapadaani]: abstention from taking life, from taking what is not given, from carnal lusts, from lying and from intoxicating liquor, the cause of sloth." -- GS iv p. 265 That is enough to convince me that the five precepts are indeed well-grounded in the Buddha's teachings. Best wishes, Jim > Dear All, > > I would just like to bring to your attention something I've known for > awhile about the 5 precept formula that we're all familiar with. It > appears to me that after repeated word searches on the Tipitaka and > its commentaries there is no such formula per se to be found anywhere > in these texts. The closest to it that I can find is the set in the > Vibhanga at the beginning of Chapter 14 but here the word > 'samaadiyaami' (I undertake) is missing. It seems to me that the > Buddha never laid down such a formula for laypersons in the same way > that he laid down the 10 precept formula for samaneras as found in the > Mahavagga (Vinayapi.taka) and the Khuddakapaa.tha. Please correct me > if I'm mistaken. > > Best wishes, > Jim 25532 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:33am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Dear Dereck, Thanks for your correction. You put what I exactly meaned. Words are OK. What is your opinion on these matter like male prostitutes and male to male sex. I think it is a bit complicated. For Bhikkhus, there is no problem as their Vinaya is Abrahmacariya. So no sex at all. But for lay people it is confusing, isn't it? Htoo Naing ---------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Cameron" wrote: > Hi, Htoo, > > > They all are wrong practice called '' Micchacara ''. Miccha is > > wrong and Cara is practice or act or behaviour. If this practice of > > wrong things is done in ' Karma ', it may constitue '' Karmesu > > Micchacara ''. > > Isn't it kaamesu and not karmesu (from kaama and not karma)? Also, > putting in the diacritical marks, micchaacaaraa must be from miccha + > aacaara, not miccha + caara because of the long vowel in the middle? > > Derek. 25533 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 14, last section Hi Larry, op 23-09-2003 01:08 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I see that understanding that arises from attainment of jhana can be > Path understanding. N: This is not in the text. Of someone who has an attainment was unexplained. Then the Tiika adds: L:Can understanding that arises from hearing also be > Path understanding? I'm thinking of Sariputta in particular. Would > remembering what was heard also apply? N: Not right away, it has to be developed on and on. Sariputta was different, he needed only a few words because he had in countless former lives developed understanding. You used the word jhana, this reminds me. There are two meanings of mundane jhaana: mundane jhana concentrating on meditation subjects (kasina, etc.), and in the case of vipassanaa: contemplating the general characteristics (impermanence, etc.), also this is called jhana. We have to look at contexts so that we know what is meant. We discussed this before. As to concentration, in the Dhsg., as Jim pointed out, there are many aspects of ekaggata cetasika, and (§ 11) one of these is called samatha, quiet. Here it is this cetasika, but in other contexts the development of cakm is meant. In the Vis. we study now we find many terms and many aspects of understanding, and each time we have to look carefully at the context. Nina. 25534 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:05am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo and,,,,,,,,, Dear Htoo Naing Thank you so much for your great metta ! > Do not underestimate own Parami. See in case of '' Sulapanthaka > Thera '' in Buddha's time. He was so unintelligent that he could not > recite a short verse. But flush of wisdom sudden came to him as he > was handling a white cloth given by The Buddha and attained Arahatta > Magga along with Jhana and Abhinna. > > Some did have a good knowledge and very intelligent. But still not > free from attachment and so still not liberated. > > I do not underestimate any one and I am not conceited in case of > Dhamma. ( Htoo )Sulapanthaka The story of Sulapanthaka thera is one of my favorites ! It has been cited as a good example even in Maha-yana traditions. I was born and brough up in a Maha-yana country and have been studying and practising Maha-yana traditions before I fortunately came in contact with Theravada tradition last year. I do not like to compare the different traditions and argue about the differences because it seems just wast of time from a practical viewpoint of bhavana. I do want to understand and practise the "newest (to me !) " tradition without any mixing-up with others. That is one reason why I insistently asked you about seemingly a clear-cut point to those who has been in pure theravada tradition. In my experiences ,it was/is one of the watershed points in various buddhist traditions . But here I stop bringing up other traditions. I want to try to understand purely what pali-canon teach. Thanks to you and Suan, I can understand well theravadin's basic stance on the point. I greatly appreciate your help. from LC 25535 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:37am Subject: Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi Christine and Dan, Thanks for the info regarding the term "silabbataparamasa"/"attachment to rules and ritual" Peace, Victor 25536 From: Derek Cameron Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:39am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi, Htoo, > What is your opinion on these matter like male prostitutes and > male to male sex. I think it is a bit complicated. > For Bhikkhus, there is no problem as their Vinaya is Abrahmacariya. > So no sex at all. Yes -- I think everyone agrees on that one! > But for lay people it is confusing, isn't it? I don't know of any suttas that explicitly address these subjects. Even the Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), often considered the code of conduct for laypeople, doesn't give a definition of kaamesu micchaacaaraa. (BTW anyone know what the commentary says?) Perhaps the best we can say is that this isn't a subject the Buddha ever addressed. Derek. 25537 From: Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "As I understand it, there is no way to develop jhaana other than by samatha bhaavanaa. In encouraging jhaana, the Buddha was encouraging the development of samatha. Are we agreed?" Hi Jon, I agree. Larry ps: Concerning whether development of samatha requires "skill": Vism. XIV 16: In the third triad, it is increase that is called "improvement". That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in improvement? When a man brings these things to mind both unarisen unprofitable things do not arise and arisen unprofitable things are abandoned in him; or when he brings these things to mind [440] both unarisen profitable things arise and arisen profitable things advance to growth, increase, development, and perfection in him. Whatever here is understanding, act of understanding ... [for words elided see Dhs. 16] ... non-delusion, investigation of states, right view, is called skill in improvement' (Vbh. 325-26). L: I'm understanding profitable to mean kusala and samatha bhavana to be kusala. So skill in improvement is understanding that samatha is improvement and skill in means is understanding how to develop that improvement. Do you understand it differently? 25538 From: Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 14, last section Larry: "I see that understanding that arises from attainment of jhana can be Path understanding." Nina: "This is not in the text. Of someone who has an attainment was unexplained." Hi Nina, Here is the usual understanding of "attainment" (samapatti) according to Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": "samápatti: 'attainments', is a name for the 8 absorptions of the fine-material and immaterial spheres to which occasionally is added as 9th attainment, attainment of extinction (nirodhasamápatti) Cf. jhána." L: I agree nibbana can be an object of jhana and therefore "attainment" would also apply to this kind of Path moment but the reference to attainment wasn't limited to this. At this point I am inclined to stress the "having" in "having attained an attainment". This suggests to me an insight knowledge may arise after jhana but still within the jhana "mind-set". Within jhana itself, we might possibly say the agenda of analyzing jhana factors and gradually releasing them in order to progress to greater tranquility (peace) as well as the rational behind suppressing the hindrances *inclines toward* insight into the general characteristics which would be present in the form of the hindrances and the jhana factors. However, I think it more likely the reference was to post jhana insight. I am tempted to call this insight "intuition" in order to differentiate it from "reason" and "hearing". But "intuition" is such a vague idea I'm not sure. What do you think? Larry 25539 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question again :To Htoo ,Suan and everyone Dear LC, Please, I hope you will come back to us after your retreat. I like your questions. You asked about latent tendencies and there is so much to study about them. In a few weeks I shall begin to tranlate from Thai about this subject: whwere are the latent tendencies and how are they eradicated. But I have to finish first three more chapters of the first Book I am translating. Nina. op 22-09-2003 19:35 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > I just do like to clarify what are unclear to me before I go into > retreat. 25540 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 0:26am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, I hadn’t forgotten our thread, but these are difficult topics for me and I may be out of my depth... ..... --- Jim Anderson wrote: > The kind of pa~n~naa that is being developed in Vism is > insight-knowledge, but there are other kinds too such as sutamayaa > pa~n~naa that seems to me to have a connection with a deep > understanding of Pali or the Buddha's language. .... I’m not sure. When we read about the 3 kinds of understanding inc. sutamayaapa~n~naa (understanding bsed on what is heard) in VismX1V, 14, I understood them all to be referring to insight-knowledge and this being the reason they are included here. Whilst I agree that of course there can be other kinds of pa~n~naa, such as with samatha development, I would have thought most/all(?) instances of sutamayaa pa~n~naa in suttas and commentaries referred to satipatthana development (??). I’ve only had a quick look so far at Nina’s commentary notes on this and also Dispeller 2066f and there’s much I’m unclear on. Nina may be able to add more or perhaps you can elaborate further for me. In an earlier post, Num summarised from the Patisambhidamagga: ***** “Path of Discrimination / Patisambhidamagga #3 Mahavagga, matika and atthakathan~a_n.akathamatika. 1) Sutamayan~a_n.a (suta: listening, maya: attain, success, nana: knowledge) Matika: knowledge in remembering dhamma from listening is sutamayan~ana. Atthakatah: Knowledge attained through listening (sutamayan~a_n.a). Suta here refers to teaching of the Buddha. Knowledge attained by listening to the teaching is sutamayan~ana. It can also refer associated dhamma of listening for example phassa. Knowledge in associated dhamma of listening is sutamayan~ana. Then the commentary gives the definition of knowledge (n~ana). <> ***** Whilst I’m not sure that I agree that a deep knowledge of Pali necessarily leads to any pa~n~naa, I have no doubt it is very useful. I have known people, inc. K.Sujin herself, who do not have a deep knowledge of Pali but a lot of insight, in my view, into the teachings. I have also known quite a few Pali scholars with an apparent ‘deep knowledge’ of the language, but also an ability, in my view, to miss the essence of the teachings, so I’m somewhat wary of making this connection. Presumably you’d say that in the latter cases there is not a deep knowledge of the language? ..... >I was also thinking of > a comparison of the money-changer's knowledge of money with the > expert's knowledge of Pali. I think I may have a very hard time trying > to convince you, especially if you don't agree that the Pali language > and the teachings presented in that language (concepts) can be a focus > for pa~n~naa. .... Of course, if we read and comprehend the teachings in Pali or any language, the concepts considered (about realities) can of course be a condition for insight. If not, we wouldn’t read or consider. Certainly, too, I agree with you and Suan that inevitably much is lost in any translation which can only ever be as good as the translator’s understanding of the text. But, I think you are saying something more and we may have to let it be;-) ..... > One of the five things in the explanation of 'attha' in the > Discrimination of Meaning is the "meaning of what is spoken" > (Dispeller, 1944). And similarly for 'dhamma' in the Discrimination of > Law there is "what is spoken" (1945). Would you not consider these to > be concepts? However, these only form part of the explanation of the > two discriminations and I'm sure they would go well beyond concepts > too. I think the translations 'meaning' and 'law' don't adequately > give the full range of the applied meanings of 'attha' and 'dhamma' in > these discriminations and should probably be best left untranslated. .... As I’ve said, I know very little about the discriminations and this will come up soon in Vism with tika notes. But no, I understand them to only refer to deep penetrative knowledge of realities - directly penetrating ‘what is spoken’ - causes, meanings, conditions and so on. I’d better not speculate further;-) Nina referred to the Vibhanga text before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24569 "The Vibhanga states according to the knowledge of attha and knowledge of dhamma with regard to the four Truths: Thus, in these texts dhamma as hetu, condition or cause has been referred to." ***** > I think it's much better to study the teachings in the Buddha's own > language. Recently, I've been thinking of translations as being > counterfeits. They should never be taken as equivalents of the > original. I never did put much faith in translations and I will > probably never be a translator myself. It's a good thing that the Pali > has been kept alive and well. Think of how much worse off we'd all be > if there had been a dominant mindset that > considered translations to be exact equivalents of the originals and > the Pali had been discarded and obliterated many centuries ago. ..... I agree with all this, though perhaps I wouldn’t use such a strong word as ‘counterfeit’. I think for Pali experts to share what they read is a priceless gift and a very difficult task. I’m not suggesting you should be a translator, Jim - I think developing one’s ‘own’ understanding is always the most important thing. ..... > > Could it mean foremost in terms of being the no 1. language (rather > than > > most common) as we read in the next para about how other languages > change > > but "only this Magadha tongue correctly called the perfect (brahma) > usage, > > the noble usage, does not change."??? And it then goes on to talk > about > > why the Buddha used this language relating to the above: > > I was thinking along those lines also. .... Interesting!! - would the Pali allow this? .... > Yes, I've been reading about their solitary lifestyles. Like Reg, I > also lived for the first ten years without electricity. I also have a > lot of experience staying in small tents during my long periods of > travel when I was much younger. ..... And now we have Azita thinking of cutting off all lines;-) Not sure how you’ll all exchange notes.... Also, appreciating your input on the 5th precept thread, Jim. Oops, I’ve exceeded my word limit.... Metta, Sarah ==== 25541 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 0:33am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Suan, Many thx for your contribution on this same thread: --- abhidhammika wrote: > > Although I do not have as strong a view as Jim on translations, I do > have similar view on preferableness of reading in the original Pali > language. > > Here are my attitudes and experiences in learning foreign languages. [...] .... I agreed with all the points you made about learning languages. When you arrived in Australia as an immigrant, I was working in a technical college teaching the same skills you outline to other newly arrived immigrants - exactly as you explained;-) I just do better teaching others than following the advice and making the time myself..... Thankyou for your inspiration and also appreciating all your and Htoo’s replies to LC’s excellent questions. Metta, Sarah ====== 25542 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Hi Dan, Seems like a long time since we’ve talked. Hope you’re all doing well and well-settled. --- "Dan D." wrote: >Can you elaborate on > the charactistics of hiri and ottappa and how we can distinguish > these wholesome "fears" from the dosa-derived "fear" of which you > speak? .... Many thanks for this opportunity to reflect further on this useful topic. I think that pretty well anytime there is any aspect of fear as generally understood, any worry, anxiety or story related to the ‘abstaining’, the cittas are most likely to be uwholesome. As we know, a knowledge of Dhamma is not necessary for understanding the value of wholesome states and the harm of unwholesome ones. When I was writing, I was reflecting on the time when I stopped drinking alcohol completely (and taking any other ‘intoxicants’). This was before I knew anything about the Buddha or his teachings and was mostly a result of a) seeing the harm of the effects on both my own mental states and actions and also on others dear to me , b) seeing the ease and danger of its addictive nature, c) fear (dosa ) of the results of continuing in this course of action. A few years ago (well, maybe 15), Jon and I went to a resort and were given a welcome fruit drink. I was thirsty and took a gulp, only to find it was alcoholic. My reaction was over-the-top annoyance at not having been told and so on. Actually, the fear was very apparent. Even now, I have this kind of fear at the thought of unknowingly being given alcohol or some other intoxicant. In my case, it also applies to coffee which I used to be quite addicted to and had to give up completely;-(. By contrast, hiri (scruples or conscience) and ottappa (shame) arise immediately with all wholesome states. At moments of abstaining wisely from any unwholesomeness, the hiri and ottappa are ‘scrupulous’. As Jon said ‘we cannot ‘think’ our way to kusala by the choice of a particular object of thought’. At moments of dana, sila or bhavana, hiri and ottappa arise without any thought or prompting. Like Andrew and others have said, this is very different from ‘turning rules over in one’s head’ and these precious cittas are accompanied by a genuine calm and ‘lighteness’ from akusala. I see the precepts and all other reminders of kusala as advice and guidance to prompt wise reflection and accompanying hiri and ottappa, rather than any special paying of attention or focussing on particular objects. KenH also said ‘when we abstain with kusala motives, the abstaining is done before we have even thought about it.’ I think this applies to all kinds of kusala - hence the daily life applicability. In brief, I don’t find ‘fear’ a useful word to use for these wholesome states because it is so easily confused with unwholesome fear. Perhaps it’s easier to consider hiri and ottappa as the opposites of shamelessness and recklessness which accompany all unwholesome states, when there is no seeing their harm. I’d be glad to hear your reflections, too, Dan. Metta, Sarah p.s I know Dan is very familiar with Nina’s ‘Cetasikas’, but others may like to read the chapter in that book on these sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html ============================ 25543 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi Jim, An interesting point here: --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear All, > > I would just like to bring to your attention something I've known for > awhile about the 5 precept formula that we're all familiar with. It > appears to me that after repeated word searches on the Tipitaka and > its commentaries there is no such formula per se to be found anywhere > in these texts. The closest to it that I can find is the set in the > Vibhanga at the beginning of Chapter 14 but here the word > 'samaadiyaami' (I undertake) is missing. It seems to me that the > Buddha never laid down such a formula for laypersons in the same way > that he laid down the 10 precept formula for samaneras as found in the > Mahavagga (Vinayapi.taka) and the Khuddakapaa.tha. Please correct me > if I'm mistaken. .... I think the section in the vibhanga you refer to above has a lot of fascinating detail about the various mental states, reinforcing the understanding of the momentary nature of these conditioned namas. As you say, no ‘samaadiyaami’ (I undertake), but in context, perhaps not to be expected? To repeat the line from the commentary on the Minor Readings (paramatthajotikaa) 11,19 again --not sure what the Pali is-- “In the case of householders, when one[precept] is broken then only that is broken, and consequently the fivefoldness of their virtue becomes effective again as soon as that one alone is reundertaken.” More relevant to your point perhaps is Dispeller (Sammohavinodanii),Classification of the Jhanas,1692. “In the word explanation of samaadaaya sikkhati skkhaapadesu (“He trains himself by undertaking the precepts of training”), bhikkhusikkha (“bhikkhus’ training”) is the training to be trained in by bhikkhus.......bhikkhuiisikkhaa (“bhikkhuniis’ training”)..........the training of novices, female probationers and female novies is included here too. Upaasakasikkhaa (“lay devotees’ training”) is the training to be trained in by lay devotees. that may be taken as the five precepts and the ten precepts. Upaasikaasikkhaa (“women devotees’ training”).........five and the ten precepts.” Not sure if this helps??? Metta, Sarah ===== 25544 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept,silabbataparamasa Hi again Jim & all on this thread, Three posts in one day to you.....comments only *if* anyone wishes;-) I'm just adding more quotes which may be relevant. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi again, > > I was interested in seeing if I could find any passages where the > Buddha explicitly refers to the five as training-precepts > (sikkhaapadaani) and found one at AN IX.20 (Velaama Sutta) in a > dialogue with Anathapindaka: > ***** Also: Dispeller, 14Classification of the Training Precepts, 1905 1905 “Now in the classification of the Training Preepts next to that, pa~nca (five) is the division by number. Sikkhaapadaani (training precepts): precepts to be trained in; ‘portions of training’ is the meaning. Furthermore, all the profitable states handed down above [S: in earlier sections] are trainings (sikkhaa) because they should be trained in.. but any factor among the five factors of virtuous conduct is a basis (pada) for those trainings in the sense of foundation; thus because of being the bases for trainings (sikkhaana.m padattaa), they are precepts (bases) of training....... 1907”Suraamerayamajjapamaada.t.thaanaa (from causes for indulgence in the intoxicants of liquor and strong drink): here suraa (liquor) is of five kinds........the volition whereby they drink is the pamaada.t.thaana (cause of negligence) because of being the reason for negligence..... 1908”But because not only just abstention is a training precept but volition also is a training precept, therefore there is a second method for pointing it out. And because a training precept is not only these two things but also the fifty and more things [S -I take this as the other cetasikas inc hiri and ottappa] associated with volition, because of being a ‘portion of what is to be trained’, are training precepts too. Therefore a third method is taught too. Herein training precept is of two kinds, training precept in the figurative sense (pariyaaya) and training precept in the literal sense (nippariyaaya). Herein, abstention (virati) is the training precept in the literal sense......for it is the hostile volition at the time of transgression that is called misconduct (dussiilya), therefore that volition is stated by way of good conduct (susiilya) even at the time of abstention. Impression [phassa], etc are included because of being associated with it............... 1921 “Drinking of liquor in the drinking of as much as a small measure (pasata) is less to blame; in the drinking of as much as the cupped hands full (a~njali) it is more to blame; but that which causes the bodily unsteadiness in one who, after drinking much, does the work of destroying a village or destroying a town is unreservedly more to blame. “As to the killing of living things, the slaughter of one whose cankers are destroyed is the more to blame............taking what is not given.......misconduct, it is the transgression with a bhikkhuni whose cankers are destroyed..........But the most to blame of all these is the causing of schism in the Order by false speech; for that is most frightful and causes roasting in hell for an aeon.” 1931 “ “As to breaking”: for lay people only that which is transgressed is broken, spoilt; the rest are not spoilt. Why? Because lay people have transitory virtuous conduct; they keep whatever precepts they can.” ***** Also see Dispeller, ‘Classification of Knowledge’2082, which summarises about how the precepts are referred to as virtuous conduct whether Buddhas teach or not. However the sila of the Patimokkha exceeds all other kinds of virtuous conduct and is only taught by a Buddha. this is ‘higher virtue’ ***** > ". . . though with pious heart he took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma > and the Order, greater would have been the fruit thereof, had he with > pious heart undertaken to keep the precepts [sikkhaapadaani]: > abstention from taking life, from taking what is not given, from > carnal lusts, from lying and from intoxicating liquor, the cause of > sloth." -- GS iv p. 265 > > That is enough to convince me that the five precepts are indeed > well-grounded in the Buddha's teachings. .... There is more on the Velaama sutta in the Khadira”ngaara Jataka (no40).The Buddha tells Anathapindika (who has given away all his wealth) “ “householder, in giving this unplalatable gift, you are giving it to those who have entered on the Noble Eightfold Path. Whereas I, when in Velaama’s time I stirred up all India.....I found none who had reached the Three Refuges or kept the Five commandments; for rare are those who are worthy of offerings. Therefore, let not your heart be troubled by the thought that your gift is unpalatable.” And so saying, he repeated the Velaamaka Sutta.” Maybe here, the reference to the five precepts refers to sotapannas and above? The Buddha also says to Anathapindika here: “You, householder, are a converted man and an elect disciple; your faith and your vision is purified.” Metta, Sarah ====== 25546 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question again :To Nina Dear Nina Thank you very much for your attention! I am very looking forward to reading the new translation for better understandings! May I ask you a question(^^)? Nibbana is defined as visankhara(unconditioned) nama in theravada tradition. Could you please let me know the reason in theravada tradition why nibbana is not only non-sankhara ,but also non-sankhara nama. Best wishes from LC --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear LC, > Please, I hope you will come back to us after your retreat. I like your > questions. You asked about latent tendencies and there is so much to study > about them. In a few weeks I shall begin to tranlate from Thai about this > subject: whwere are the latent tendencies and how are they eradicated. But I > have to finish first three more chapters of the first Book I am translating. > Nina. > op 22-09-2003 19:35 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > > > I just do like to clarify what are unclear to me before I go into > > retreat. 25547 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:18am Subject: Question about Citta Dear everyone, I have a question (please don't laugh at my ignorance :-)) I know that Citta (Consciousness) always arises with a set of Cetasikas. My question is: Is there a Citta that exists by itself? (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) Another way to formulate my question: Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? (ie. Citta has only itself as object) Thanks. KKT 25548 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:05am Subject: Tiika Vis. 16 Relevant passage of Visuddhimagga: Vis:16. 9. In the third triad, it is increase that is called "improvement". That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in improvement? When a man brings these things to mind both unarisen unprofitable things do not arise and arisen unprofitable things are abandoned in him; or when he brings these things to mind [440] both unarisen profitable things arise and arisen profitable things advance to growth, increase, development, and perfection in him. Whatever here is understanding, act of understanding ... [for words elided see Dhs. 16] ... non-delusion, investigation of states, right view, is called skill in improvement' (Vbh. 325-26). Vis : 16. tatiyattike aayo naama vuddhi, saa duvidhaa anatthahaanito atthuppattito ca. tattha kosalla.m aayakosalla.m. yathaaha -- ``tattha katama.m aayakosalla.m? ime me dhamme manasikaroto anuppannaa ceva akusalaa dhammaa na uppajjanti, uppannaa ca akusalaa dhammaa pahiiyanti, ime vaa panime dhamme manasikaroto anuppannaa ceva kusalaa dhammaa uppajjanti. uppannaa ca kusalaa dhammaa bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa sa.mvattantiiti, yaa tattha pa~n~naa pajaananaa...pe0... amoho dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi, ida.m vuccati aayakosalla''nti (vibha0 771). Tiika:16. words: sampatti: benefit attha: meaning, benefit. haani: decrease vuddhi: growth uppatti: origin .thiti : maintaining, steadfastness. Text Tiika 16: ayanti etaaya sampattiyoti aayo, vuddhi. As to the word improvement, this means: improvement in this benefit, growth. tattha kosallanti tasmi.m anatthahaaniatthuppattilakkha.ne aaye kosalla.m kusalataa nipu.nataa. Here, the word skill means : skill in improvement with regard to this characteristic of diminution of harm and arousing of benefit, wholesomeness, accomplishment. ta.m pana ekantika.m aayakosalla.m paa.livaseneva dassetu.m ``ime dhamme''tiaadi vutta.m. ³These dhammas etc.² * is said, in order to show that this surely is skill in improvement according to the text. tattha ida.m vuccatiiti yaa imesa.m akusaladhammaana.m anuppattipahaanesu, Here this is called **, means, that which is understanding concerning the non-arising and abandoning of these unprofitable dhammas, kusaladhammaana~nca uppatti.t.thitiisu pa~n~naa, and the arousing and maintaining of these profitable dhammas, ida.m aayakosalla.m naamaati vuccati. is called skill in improvement. ****** English: As to the word improvement, this means: improvement in this benefit, growth. Here, the word skill means : skill in improvement with regard to this characteristic of diminution of harm and arousing of benefit, wholesomeness, accomplishment. ³These dhammas etc.² * is said, in order to show that this surely is skill in improvement according to the text. Here this is called **, means, that which is understanding concerning the non-arising and abandoning of these unprofitable dhammas, and the arousing and maintaining of these profitable dhammas, is called skill in improvement. --------------- * In paying attention to these dhammas. ** This is called skill in improvement. ******* 25549 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 14, last section Hi Larry, op 24-09-2003 01:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Here is the usual understanding of "attainment" (samapatti) according to > Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": > > "samápatti: 'attainments', is a name for the 8 absorptions of the > fine-material and immaterial spheres to which occasionally is added as > 9th attainment, attainment of extinction (nirodhasamápatti) Cf. > jhána." N: We have to see the context. This whole section, as Jon said, is about understanding. This is stressed very much in Vis. 16: at the end: > L: I agree nibbana can be an object of jhana and therefore "attainment" > would also apply to this kind of Path moment but the reference to > attainment wasn't limited to this. N: We have to be careful. Nibbana can be experienced by lokuttara jhanacitta. Or, for those who did not develop jhana: the right concentration accompanying the maggacitta has the intensity of jhana, but nibbana is the object. L:At this point I am inclined to stress > the "having" in "having attained an attainment". This suggests to me an > insight knowledge may arise after jhana but still within the jhana > "mind-set". N: But what about the many, many people, also in the Buddha's time who did not develop jhana? L:Within jhana itself, we might possibly say the agenda of > analyzing jhana factors and gradually releasing them in order to > progress to greater tranquility (peace) as well as the rational behind > suppressing the hindrances *inclines toward* insight into the general > characteristics which would be present in the form of the hindrances and > the jhana factors. However, I think it more likely the reference was to > post jhana insight. N: Suppressing the hindrances: this is not in the development of insight: knowing them as they are, as non-self. Now these texts on kosalla, skill, make clear that also akusala non-arisen or already arisen have to be known. These are the four right efforts, sammavayama of the eightfold Path. Insight, not jhana. When there is right understanding of whatever arises, also akusala, the Path is being developed. L: I am tempted to call this insight "intuition" in order to differentiate > it from "reason" and "hearing". But "intuition" is such a vague idea I'm > not sure. What do you think? N: It can denote direct understanding. I have to come back to reason and hearing, because reasoning is used here in a different context: one's own thinking and practice (cinta includes also practice) without having heard from someone else: Buddhas are able to develop panna without having heard it in that life, from someone else. Nina. 25550 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:20am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo and,,,,,,,,, Dear LC, Thanks for your interest and persistent focusing on Dhamma. I totally believe that there were 6 Sangha meetings. What The Buddha accurately said will not be possible to carry over. The Buddha said and preached in simple language in His time. I do not think The Buddha was preaching in verse ( or Lanka or song ). We can imagine that 45 years ( 16425 days ) preaching and speaking were a lot. The main facts were carried over verbally. Literature was started at the 4 th meeting in Celon or Srilanka. 5th meeting records are still there in Burma. In the last capital of Burmese kingdom called Mandalay ( in northern Burma ). In that city, to the northeast is a hill called Mandalay (so the city, which origionally was ' Ratanabon ' a compilation of jewel was changed to Mandalay ). At the foot of the hill, there are ( are ) all the records of 5th Sangha meeting and all Dhamma preached by The Buddha are there. If you have enough time you can go there and check yourself. 6th meeting was done in Yangon, the capital of today Myanmar. There are books related to the 6th meeting. It is the purest source. If you can understand Pali, it will help you a lot. I have read some words that stated '' the eighth sense ''. I was shocked to hear that. Anyway, if there is still in doubt about anything, please do not hesitate. We all should try to our best. This is study area. So it is called '' Dhamma Study Group ''. Isn't it? With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 25551 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:31am Subject: Re: Question about Citta Dear KKT ( phamdluan2002 ), Citta can be thought in isolation. But Citta cannot arise itself. It always ( always takes an object ). Among these objects, Citta itself is one. Citta can be defined as one who is conscious to the object. Or one who knows the sense. Citta is one of senses. Among Lokiya Citta of 81, Nevasannanasannaayatana Arupa Jhana Citta is the most subtle Citta. But it arises with equanimous feeling ( Vedana Cetasika ) and other Cetasikas as well. Cittas are counted as 89 or 121. If not mixed with Jhana they are 89 altogether and if Lokuttara Citta arise in Jhana then there will be 121 Citta. But there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > Dear everyone, > > > I have a question > (please don't laugh at my ignorance :-)) > > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > My question is: > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) > > Another way to formulate my question: > > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) > > > Thanks. > > > KKT 25552 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:56am Subject: Re: Question about Citta Dear Htoo Naing, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear KKT ( phamdluan2002 ), Citta can be thought in isolation. But Citta cannot arise itself. It always ( always takes an object ). Among these objects, Citta itself is one. Citta can be defined as one who is conscious to the object. Or one who knows the sense. Citta is one of senses. Among Lokiya Citta of 81, Nevasannanasannaayatana Arupa Jhana Citta is the most subtle Citta. But it arises with equanimous feeling ( Vedana Cetasika ) and other Cetasikas as well. Cittas are counted as 89 or 121. If not mixed with Jhana they are 89 altogether and if Lokuttara Citta arise in Jhana then there will be 121 Citta. But there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing KKT: Thanks for answering my question. I know that I've formulated my question wrongly. Yes, << Citta cannot arise itself >> as you stated. Citta as well as Cetasikas arise by conditions. My question should be: Is there a Citta << without Cetasikas >> ? (ie. Citta as subject and object of itself and there is no other Cetasika) It seems that your answer is Yes, isn't it? If Yes then I'll have another question. Thanks, KKT ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > > Dear everyone, > > > I have a question > (please don't laugh at my ignorance :-)) > > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > My question is: > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) > > Another way to formulate my question: > > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) > > > Thanks. > > > KKT 25553 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 0:09pm Subject: Re: Question about Citta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: Dear Htoo Naing, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear KKT ( phamdluan2002 ), Citta can be thought in isolation. But Citta cannot arise itself. It always ( always takes an object ). Among these objects, Citta itself is one. Citta can be defined as one who is conscious to the object. Or one who knows the sense. Citta is one of senses. Among Lokiya Citta of 81, Nevasannanasannaayatana Arupa Jhana Citta is the most subtle Citta. But it arises with equanimous feeling ( Vedana Cetasika ) and other Cetasikas as well. Cittas are counted as 89 or 121. If not mixed with Jhana they are 89 altogether and if Lokuttara Citta arise in Jhana then there will be 121 Citta. But there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing KKT: Thanks for answering my question. I know that I've formulated my question wrongly. Yes, << Citta cannot arise itself >> as you stated. Citta as well as Cetasikas arise by conditions. My question should be: Is there a Citta << without Cetasikas >> ? (ie. Citta as subject and object of itself and there is no other Cetasika) It seems that your answer is Yes, isn't it? If Yes then I'll have another question. KKT: Sorry, I missed your last phrase: << there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika >> So your answer is NO, right? My next question is: What is the << in-between >> of the falling-away of one Citta and the arising of the next Citta? Thanks. KKT 25554 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question again :nibbana Dear L.C., op 24-09-2003 15:08 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > Nibbana is defined as visankhara(unconditioned) nama in theravada > tradition. > > Could you please let me know the reason in theravada tradition why > nibbana is not only non-sankhara ,but also non-sankhara nama. N: Nibbana is asankhata dhaatu, unconditioned element. It is not rupa: aruupino: without materiality. This is said in the Dhammasangani: see "Buddhist psychological Ethics". § 1092. It is nama. But different from citta and cetasikas which are namas that experience an object. The Co, the Expositor, II, The Summary, Suttanta Couplets: the meanings of nama are: name making, bending, causing to bend. The Pali namati means: to bend. Nameti: to cause to bend. Citta and cetasikas bend to wards an object, they experience an object. They also cause one another to bend toward an object. Nibbana does not bend toward an object, but it is the object of lokuttara citta. Thus, it causes to bend. Nina. 25555 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question about Citta Dear KKT, op 24-09-2003 17:18 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...:> > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) N: Impossible. But the accompanying cetasikas are not its objects, they assist citta to experience an object that presents itself, be it rupa or nama. > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) N: no. It does not have itself as object. It can be aware of another citta or cetasika that has just fallen away. When rupa impinges on a sense-door there are cittas in a process which experience that rupa which has not fallen away. After that rupa is experienced in a mind-door process when it has just fallen away. With citta as object, it is different, rupa lasts longer than citta, it can be object during a whole sense-door process of different cittas, all of which experoence that rupa. Citta falls away immediately. Citta can experience another nama, citta or cetasika, in a mind-door process. That citta or cetasika which is the object has just fallen away. Your question is good, and I hope it is somewhat clearer now? An example: you have dosa, aversion, and you know it. That dosa falls away immediately, and another citta knows that there was dosa, or it has aversion about the dosa, or it considers with understanding that dosa is a conditioned reality. It is hard to realize that cittas fall away so extremely fast, that there are already other moments of citta which have as object the past dosa. It just seems to be the same moment, but that is an illusion. People are discouraged about akusala and believe that there cannot be awareness of it. First there may be aversion, and then understanding can be developed about aversion. That is another moment which is kusala accompanied by panna. We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching so many details about dhammas. Nina. 25556 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question about Citta Dear KKT, op 24-09-2003 21:09 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...: > What is the << in-between >> > of the falling-away of one Citta > and the arising of the next Citta? N: the citta that has fallen away is a condition for the next citta. This condiiton is: anantara paccaya, contiguity condition. Anantara means: no "antara", nothing in between. Antara means: in between. Only the dying citta of the arahat is not succeeded by a next citta, no more rebirth. Nina. 25557 From: Date: Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah In a message dated 9/16/2003 2:36:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > TG: >I suspect that Arahats: rather than being without any view that > people > >actually exist; I suspect rather, that arahats have the correct view as > >to how they > >exist (what they are.) > ..... > Sarah: I’d say that when sakkaya ditthi (personality view) has been > eradicated, > there is no more view of any kind that ‘people actually exist’. > .... "Personality view" has to do with whether there is a view that there is a self, soul, controler, agent, entity, etc., that persists apart from mere conditions. Since such a condition does not exist, personality-view is an incorrect view. However, as you point out next, nama and rupas do exist...and yes...people are made up of nama and rupas. Therefore...people exist based on that. People = The 5 Aggregates, and the 12 Fold Chain indicates the systematic dynamics that power them. I don't think that personality-view, self-view, identity-view, or whatever term suits you, has anything to do with whether or not people exist. The conditions that generate what we call a person do occur. People and animals and plants actually do arise. There is just no self that arises along with those conditions. To use an old expression...I think saying -- "people don't exist" is like "throwing out the baby with the bath water." There's hundreds if not thousands of instances of the Buddha saying "there is no self" in the suttas. Can't recall one of him saying "there are no people." (On much rarer occasions he says there is no "being," but I read it as a reference to "self.") To view people as nama and rupas is at best a good stepping stone to progress away from self view. But if it stops there, it has failed. The nama and rupa views become there own little "self/entity-views" and one has failed to understand that insight into conditionality is for the purpose of liberating the mind from those types of views -- (self-views/delusions/attachments that generate suffering.) > TG: >I think they see them as "unfolding causal > >occurrences" that are bewildered and trapped in an interactive (pain > >generating) system. > .... > Sarah: I think they would see this description as a set of concepts with > little > bearing on the namas and rupas which are the only phenomena which actually > exist;-) It's one of the ironies of Buddhism that it requires a maze of complex concepts in order to overcome the delusion which normally fuels concepts. I'm not even sure if there is any document in the world more conceptually complex than the abhidhamma with the suttas right there as well. My statement is intended to express a "world condition," insight of which, if comprehended, would hopefully induce the mind to turn away from self view and attachment. I believe the above short sentence managed to incorporate conditionality, impermanence, no-self (by implication) and affliction regarding human beings. And yet you read it as a set of concepts that had little bearing on nama and rupa. That's your "choice/interpretation." (Due to conditions.) Since you believe that nama and rupas are the only phenomena that actually exist, I suggest that my statement should have been read with that in mind. What else could it possibly refer to? The view that nama and rupa are realities is a "personification" of states. It can't but help make them "entities" in the mind. As long as you understand that and know that such views are only stepping stones to escaping such views (as part of the process of overcoming affliction), they may do no harm -- as an insight stepping stone. If the view is held on to, it is just attachment and delusion. > .. > TG: >With this "correct view," how could arahats not have compassion (or > >friendliness)? :) > > > >This is perhaps what you meant anyway. > ..... > Sarah: Not really :-) Another paraphrase gone astray??? > I know it’s hard to understand how with the full appreciation that what we > take for people and things are only namas and rupas that these same > ‘people and things’ can be the objects of mana, metta and even of panna, > but not of satipatthana. This relates to the discussions Howard, Toby and > I have been having too. The point is that concepts, including people, are > still objects of cittas (consciousness) for ariyans with no more wrong > view, just as they are for us now. The difference is that there is no > illusion that these concepts represent realities in anyway. Although I > agree that namas and rupas are conditioned or ‘causal’, I’m not sure they > can be referred to as ‘occurrences’. Perhaps you’d clarify. Does > ‘unfolding’ refer to ‘impermanent’ or ‘changing’? Sorry to be so > paticular. (It must be the abhidhamma which has crept in....LOL ...can’t > leave home without it, but then I read abhidhamma in the suttas too;-)). Concepts, including people, -- including rupa, including nama, including paramattha dhammas are all false when they are viewed as entities or self in any way...i.e., basically whenever they are conceptualized in the unenlightened mind. My understanding is that -- Arahats have overcome "self-view", not "non-reality-view." The illusion they have overcome is that there is any self in any way, shape, or form. I suspect that terming nama and rupa as "realities" to destroy concepts like "people"...is letting the concepts of nama and rupa off "Scott Free." It seems as if you are positing some kind of intrinsic quality to nama and rupas. They have none. They arise due to conditional interactions that also arose due to conditional interactions. They are empty and selfless. Any view of them is ultimately an impediment to liberation. (In the unliberated mind.) Yes, unfolding in the way I used it is meant to refer to impermanence and causality. The two cannot be separated. I find it fascinating that you so freely and strongly use the term "exist" to nama and rupa but that the term "occur" troubles you to some degree. Can something exist without occuring? Actually, the word "exist" bothers me to some degree because I think it is heavily charged with self-view tendencies. I find the word "occur" to be much less "substantial" and more accurate (in my mind anyway.) The bottom line is...if the knowledge you are developing is leading away from affliction, then it has merit to whatever degree it succeeds. TG 25558 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:42am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo and,,,,,,,,, Dear Htoo Nating Thanks for your constant attention with metta! > We can imagine that 45 years ( 16425 days ) preaching and speaking > were a lot. The main facts were carried over verbally. Literature was > started at the 4 th meeting in Celon or Srilanka. Could you give me names of the literateture ? Why were they not included at the 3 th meeting ? > At the foot of the hill, there are ( are ) all the records of 5th > Sangha meeting and all Dhamma preached by The Buddha are there. If > you have enough time you can go there and check yourself. I do want to go to Myanmar for retreat before long. If I have a chance , I will go to see them too. I do not know if this question is appropriate or not, but Do you know any reliable sayadaws who teach samatha before we go on to vipassana bhavana ? > I have read some words that stated '' the eighth sense ''. I was > shocked to hear that. I can just imagine you were shocked (^^). >Anyway, if there is still in doubt about anything, please do not hesitate. We all should try to our best. This > is study area. So it is called '' Dhamma Study Group ''. Isn't it? Thanks a lot! from LC 25559 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi Derek & Htoo, Thank you both for your input here. These are sensitive issues. I understand Nina’s reluctance to translate the Dhamma issue on incest which seems so obvious, but also touches on other areas of misconduct which, as RobertK said, some of us discussed last year. I also sympathised with Christine’s comment that some of Htoo’s remarks seemed like ‘interesting and quaint ideas from long ago and far away’. As far as the teachings are concerned I’m not sure we can dismiss them so easily, however. ..... --- Derek Cameron wrote: H: > > But for lay people it is confusing, isn't it? > D: > I don't know of any suttas that explicitly address these subjects. > Even the Sigalovada Sutta (DN 31), often considered the code of > conduct for laypeople, doesn't give a definition of kaamesu > micchaacaaraa. (BTW anyone know what the commentary says?) > > Perhaps the best we can say is that this isn't a subject the Buddha > ever addressed. ..... I would have said the same, but in the sutta (and Jim’s post) I quoted from the other day, the Cakkavatti-Siihanaada Sutta (DN 26), we read: “And among the generation whose life-span was five hundred years, three things increased: incest, excessive greed and deviant practices*.....and as a result, the children of those whose life-span had been five hundred years lived, some for two hundred and fifty years, some for only two hundred. And among those whose life-span was two hundred and fifty years, these things increased: lack of respect for mother and father, for ascetics and Brahmins, and for the head of the clan.” In my other post I continued to quote about how a time will come when there is a life-span of only ten years. Girls will be ‘marriageable at five years old’. Food delicacies will disappear and the 10 kusala kamma-patha will disappear completely with the 10 akusala kamma-patha very prevalent. There will be no word for ‘moral ‘(kusala). Those who show no respect for parents, ascetics and so on will ‘enjoy honour and prestige’ (just as in King Pasenadi’s dream in the Jataka Tales). “All will be promiscuous in the world like goats and sheep, fowl and pigs, dogs and jackals.” There will be fierce enmity, hatred, killing. Eventually there will be a ‘turn around’ after the seven day ‘sword interval’. People will realise that the addiction to evil ways has led to terrible results and they start to abstain from taking life and so on. Life spans start to increase again. Only when they return to eighty thousand years will the next Buddha, Metteyya appear. * Note to Walshe translation says: “Micchaa-dhamma. DA (commentary) says ‘men with men, women with women’. Sacred Books transl (TW and Mrs Rhys Davids): “Among humans of the latter span of life, brethren, three things grew apace: incest, wanton greed, and perverted lust. Thereby the life-span of those beings and their comeliness wasted..........two centuries”. You or Htoo may be able to check the Pali and comy. ==================================== 25560 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ONE_! Hi Icaro and ‘sensitive matter thread’ folks, --- icarofranca wrote: > (At the last episode...) > > The Paramattha Dhammas are the main structure of all Buddhism and > the golden bricks that Reality are made of. .... Right and we all agree that these golden bricks of Reality consist of all namas and rupas, I think? .... > > White T-Shirts, Socks, Pants, Toothbrush, shaving blade... > > At the first glance, these Dhammas are classified in two main > categories: the first one is nipphanannarupa, produced by the catuja > (kamma, citta, utu, ahara), that are "Real" because they are material > and entirely grounded on Rupa. ..... I would say these Dhammas (the four great elements, sensitive phenomena, etc as you listed last time) are ‘real’ because they have characteristics and can be directly known. ..... > ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER ONE ! > - AFTER A MUTTON SCÉANCE, WHAT´S REALITY ? > > Bootcamp! > > Living at the barracks, among other doughboys, it´s a matter of > adaptability: one must get good manners on standing up at bed, to > attend the calling of Nature in the common bathroom,to shave one´s > own face (Rasée la figure, in French),to put on the camp uniform and > to get a good place to take the breakfast! > [..] .... I hope all your training in the field and Abhidhamma textbooks is being put to good use;-) .... > Are these affairs a set of "Real" things ? > At this point of our journey, we will meet the second group of > Paramattha Dhammas: > Ten elements that are considered not real (anipphanannarupa). > 1. akasa - space > Communication (viññatti) - > 2. bodily language (kayaniññatti) > 3. vocal intimation (vagiviññatti) > These two are produced by mind. ..... This is a little difficult and Nina ‘corrected’ your same statement once before about the anipphanna (non-concrete) rupas not being real. As far as I understand from the texts, ALL rupas are considered real (28 rupa paramattha dhammas), even though these are not ‘nipphanna’ (concrete matter). I’d be glad if you’d share any references from the Abhidhamma texts which suggest they are ‘not real’. Paramattha by definition means ultimate or actual, I think. ..... > And there are also other mutable material qualities: > 4. lightness (lahuta) > 5. softness (muduta) > 6. adaptability (kamma??ata) > These three are produced without kamma. > [lots of reluctant snipping this end;-(] > > Other Characteristics of material qualities (lakkhanarupa) > 7. material productivity - beginning (upacaya) > 8. continuity (santati) > 9. decay (jarata) > 10. impermanence (aniccata) ... These are characteristics of rupas, but still classified under paramattha rupas. As you listed last time, the sensitive matter (eye-sensitivity etc) which Larry and others have been discussing was all listed in the first 18 nipphanna rupa. (see CMAp236). ..... > All in this world of Dukkha rises and falls at the same patterns: > from upacaya to anicatta, the food dish in front of my eyes at the > begin of lunch is filled (or produced by the cook) of rice, beams and > meat. Time runs out. And at last the food dish is empty of mundane > food. All material processes in world follow up the same path, that´s > not "real" as a material and finite thing. > > Finally, we get a full list of Paramattha Dhammas: The first 18 > plus these 10 make the classical and canonical 28 rupas! .... 28 paramattha ‘real’ rupas;-) .... > And I´ll become a vegetarian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .... Logic??? No more mutton sceances?? ..... > O Noble flock of Dhamma followers! Don´t deny my advice: stay > tuned for more Dhamma Days at the Military Bootcamp !!!!!!!!! > > Next Episode: > > "ICARO DAMMA´S DIARY, CHAPTER TWO: > The FLEEEEEECE of a good soldier is a good uniform!" .... I’m very tuned and very appreciative (even if I don’t speak Icarish like Connie;-)). Sounds like bootcamp’s going very well with lots of good paramattha reminders;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 25561 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question again :nibbana Dear Nina I found your past post on the same topic at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15339?source=1 Thanks to you , I can understand well. from LC --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear L.C., > op 24-09-2003 15:08 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > > > Nibbana is defined as visankhara(unconditioned) nama in theravada > > tradition. > > > > Could you please let me know the reason in theravada tradition why > > nibbana is not only non-sankhara ,but also non-sankhara nama. > N: Nibbana is asankhata dhaatu, unconditioned element. It is not rupa: > aruupino: without materiality. This is said in the Dhammasangani: see > "Buddhist psychological Ethics". § 1092. > It is nama. But different from citta and cetasikas which are namas that > experience an object. > The Co, the Expositor, II, The Summary, Suttanta Couplets: the meanings of > nama are: name making, bending, causing to bend. The Pali namati means: to > bend. Nameti: to cause to bend. Citta and cetasikas bend to wards an object, > they experience an object. They also cause one another to bend toward an > object. > Nibbana does not bend toward an object, but it is the object of lokuttara > citta. Thus, it causes to bend. by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of object.> > Nina.. 25562 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question again :nibbana Hi LC, --- lokuttaracitta wrote: > Dear Nina > > > I found your past post on the same topic at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15339?source=1 > > Thanks to you , I can understand well. .... I'm greatly appreciating all your qus and interest (also KKT, glad to see yours;-)). If you haven't found the U.P., I think you might find some of the posts there, for example on nibbana, to be useful. You're most welcome to raise anything you find. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah Given your M.background and interest in anusaya, ayuhana etc, you may find part of this old post of mine of some relevance. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11878.html ..... 25563 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim Very interesting, and thanks very much. I obviously need to spend some time looking into the Dhs and Atthasalini. My reading to date has been almost exclusively confined to the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha and Visuddhi-Magga (apart of course from the many quotes from the texts themselves that Nina has included in her writings or that are quoted on this list). Just going back to your previous post, you point out that: "The Expositor explains how all these extra dhammas [the aruupino dhammas] (except citta) are reduced to the list of 52 [cetasikas]. Samatha is included in the cetasika one-pointedness (ekaggataa)." That being so, then the 'samatha' in the excerpts you quote here from Dhs is the universal (and ethically variable) cetasika more commonly known as ekaggataa. As you will know, the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha also gives a similar explanation regarding the factors that constitute the bala-s, indriya-s, path factors (mentioned in your list of 6 below); indeed the whole 37 bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma (requisites of enlightenment) are said to be reducible to 13 cetasikas, and citta. My question however really related to the 'samatha' of samatha bhavana as one finds discussed, for example, in the section of the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha dealing with samatha and vipassana (kamma.t.thaanasanganavibhaaga, samathasangaha). Of course I am using the translations, CMA Ch IX and STA Ch 9, but it is clear that the meaning here is not simply ekaggataa cetasika. To my understanding, all moments of samatha bhavana are ~naa.nasampayutta.m (accompanied by wisdom), just as all moments of vipassana bhavana are ~naa.nasampayutta.m. The difference lies in the level of wisdom and the nature of the object of the wisdom. Further, as I understand it, the 'Samaadhi' section of Vism deals with samatha bhavana while the 'Panna' section deals with vipassana bhavana. Is what I have just said consistent with the Abhidhamma texts as you read them, Jim? Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > When we are using the classification system of the 52 cetasikas as > enumerated in the Abhidhammatthasangaha, one would have to include > 'samatha' under the general term 'ekaggataa'. But in the > Atthasalini > (Expositor, p. 178), the general term used is 'samaadhi' > (concentration) which is classified in 6 places (in all kusala > states) > as follows: > > 1. cittass'ekaggataa (a jhaana-factor) > 2. samaadhindriya (a faculty) > 3. sammaasamaadhi (a path-factor) > 4. samaadhibala (a power or strength) > 5. samatha (calm) > 6. avikkhepa (non-distraction) > > In akusala states, no.3 is changed into micchaasamaadhi. Dhs §1189 > defines cetasika dhammas as vedanaakkhandha, sa~n~naakkhandha, > sa"nkhaarakkhandha. I think one can refer to any one of the above > six categories of samaadhi as a cetasika dhamma in the Abhidhammic > system > of the Dhammasangani but in the other simplified system one can > only use the 'ekaggataa' term for all six. > > N.B.: I just spotted a big error in the PTS edn. of Atthasaalinii > (p. > 135): "Magga"ngaani patvaa samaadhindriyan ti." should read > "Magga"ngaani patvaa sammaasamaadhii ti." Fortunately, the > translation > in The Expositor is okay. ... > No, I see that samatha is an associated dhamma that is found in all > kusala states with or without pa~n~naa including the > lokuttaracittas > (see Dhs §334). If a citta associated with knowledge has a > paramattha > dhamma as object, then the associated samatha will also take the > same paramattha object. Note that in the Asankhatasamyutta of the > Samyutta > Nikaya, the Buddha states that 'samatha' is a path (one of many) > leading to the Unconditioned, etc. I think the crucial difference > between kusala and akusala states is the presence > or absence of sati. > > Best wishes, > Jim 25564 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fifth Precept Nicely explained, Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Dan, > > Seems like a long time since we've talked. Hope you're all doing well and > well-settled. > > --- "Dan D." wrote: > >Can you elaborate on > > the charactistics of hiri and ottappa and how we can distinguish > > these wholesome "fears" from the dosa-derived "fear" of which you > > speak? > .... > Many thanks for this opportunity to reflect further on this useful topic. > > I think that pretty well anytime there is any aspect of fear as generally > understood, any worry, anxiety or story related to the `abstaining', the > cittas are most likely to be uwholesome. As we know, a knowledge of Dhamma > is not necessary for understanding the value of wholesome states and the > harm of unwholesome ones. When I was writing, I was reflecting on the time > when I stopped drinking alcohol completely (and taking any other > `intoxicants'). This was before I knew anything about the Buddha or his > teachings and was mostly a result of a) seeing the harm of the effects on > both my own mental states and actions and also on others dear to me , b) > seeing the ease and danger of its addictive nature, c) fear (dosa ) of the > results of continuing in this course of action. > > A few years ago (well, maybe 15), Jon and I went to a resort and were > given a welcome fruit drink. I was thirsty and took a gulp, only to find > it was alcoholic. My reaction was over-the-top annoyance at not having > been told and so on. Actually, the fear was very apparent. Even now, I > have this kind of fear at the thought of unknowingly being given alcohol > or some other intoxicant. In my case, it also applies to coffee which I > used to be quite addicted to and had to give up completely;-(. > > By contrast, hiri (scruples or conscience) and ottappa (shame) arise > immediately with all wholesome states. At moments of abstaining wisely > from any unwholesomeness, the hiri and ottappa are `scrupulous'. As Jon > said `we cannot `think' our way to kusala by the choice of a particular > object of thought'. At moments of dana, sila or bhavana, hiri and ottappa > arise without any thought or prompting. Like Andrew and others have said, > this is very different from `turning rules over in one's head' and these > precious cittas are accompanied by a genuine calm and `lighteness' from > akusala. > > I see the precepts and all other reminders of kusala as advice and > guidance to prompt wise reflection and accompanying hiri and ottappa, > rather than any special paying of attention or focussing on particular > objects. KenH also said `when we abstain with kusala motives, the > abstaining is done before we have even thought about it.' I think this > applies to all kinds of kusala - hence the daily life applicability. > > In brief, I don't find `fear' a useful word to use for these wholesome > states because it is so easily confused with unwholesome fear. Perhaps > it's easier to consider hiri and ottappa as the opposites of shamelessness > and recklessness which accompany all unwholesome states, when there is no > seeing their harm. > > I'd be glad to hear your reflections, too, Dan. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s I know Dan is very familiar with Nina's `Cetasikas', but others may > like to read the chapter in that book on these sobhana (beautiful) > cetasikas. > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > ============================ 25565 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "As I understand it, there is no way to develop jhaana other > than by samatha bhaavanaa. In encouraging jhaana, the Buddha was > encouraging the development of samatha. Are we agreed?" > > Hi Jon, > > I agree. Good. Then let's continue. Developing samatha is different from developing concentration. There is no kusala involved in simply focussing on an object, even an object such as a kasina or the breath. Are we still agreed? Jon PS Regarding your PS (below), the text you are quoting from, Vism Ch XIV, 16, is part of the description of the different kinds of *understanding*, begining at para 8 of that chapter. The corresponding passage dealing with *concentration* is at Ch III, 5 to 25. There is some very interesting stuff there. However, there is no argument from me on the proposition that the development of samatha requires 'skill', since samatha bhaavanaa is kusala of a very high level. But the skill of samatha is different from the skill of vipassana. It is very helpful to learn more about the difference between the two; this will support the development of both (while confusion about this distinction makes the development of either a much more difficult task). > ps: Concerning whether development of samatha requires "skill": > > Vism. XIV 16: In the third triad, it is increase that is called > "improvement". That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the > arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according > as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in improvement? ... 25566 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: six Councils, to Htoo and Suan. Dear Htoo and Suan, I do not know anything about the 5th -sixth council. Was something new added? Were there conroversies? At the fourth: the teachings were put into writing? Nina. op 24-09-2003 20:20 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Literature was > started at the 4 th meeting in Celon or Srilanka. > > 5th meeting records are still there in Burma. In the last capital of > Burmese kingdom called Mandalay ( in northern Burma ). In that city, > to the northeast is a hill called Mandalay (so the city, which > origionally was ' Ratanabon ' a compilation of jewel was changed to > Mandalay ). > > At the foot of the hill, there are ( are ) all the records of 5th > Sangha meeting and all Dhamma preached by The Buddha are there. If > you have enough time you can go there and check yourself. > > 6th meeting was done in Yangon, the capital of today Myanmar. There > are books related to the 6th meeting. It is the purest source. 25567 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: Pali study in Bgk. Dear Sarah, I just like to add a little more info. A. Sujin has for many years asking the meaning of Pali terms to Pali experts such as A. Somporn, who knows by heart the derivation of almost every term. As I mentioned before, I was present at the Board meeting on Sunday after a long day of sessions. All books and dictinaries are pulled out and the texts are studied in depth. A. Sujin asked: is there another meaning of this term? She will keep on asking. Different texts where the term occurs are compared, scriptures, commentaries and subcommentaries. I think that is very important. Nina. op 24-09-2003 09:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I have known > people, inc. K.Sujin herself, who do not have a deep knowledge of Pali but > a lot of insight, in my view, into the teachings. 25568 From: Derek Cameron Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi, Sarah, > * Note to Walshe translation says: > "Micchaa-dhamma. DA (commentary) says `men with men, women with women'. > You or Htoo may be able to check the Pali and comy. I did, and Maurice Walshe's translation is correct. Evidently homosexuality was regarded as part of the gradual degradation from the moral ideal. I didn't know that. Derek. 25569 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question about Citta Dear Nina, Thanks for answering my questions. I have many more questions and I want to proceed slowly if you don't mind. You said that << It (ie. Citta) can be aware of another citta or cetasika that has just fallen away >> As I understand there is only one Citta at a time, right? How could this Citta (which cannot be aware of itself as an actual Citta) be aware of another Citta that has just FALLEN AWAY? We have only one Citta of a time. Thus when one Citta is present, the previous Citta was already finished. There is no << overlap >> between them. Therefore how could the actual Citta be aware of something already finished. I don't see the relation between two successive Cittas. Thank you, Nina. KKT =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear KKT, op 24-09-2003 17:18 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...:> > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) N: Impossible. But the accompanying cetasikas are not its objects, they assist citta to experience an object that presents itself, be it rupa or nama. > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) N: no. It does not have itself as object. It can be aware of another citta or cetasika that has just fallen away. When rupa impinges on a sense-door there are cittas in a process which experience that rupa which has not fallen away. After that rupa is experienced in a mind- door process when it has just fallen away. With citta as object, it is different, rupa lasts longer than citta, it can be object during a whole sense-door process of different cittas, all of which experoence that rupa. Citta falls away immediately. Citta can experience another nama, citta or cetasika, in a mind-door process. That citta or cetasika which is the object has just fallen away. Your question is good, and I hope it is somewhat clearer now? An example: you have dosa, aversion, and you know it. That dosa falls away immediately, and another citta knows that there was dosa, or it has aversion about the dosa, or it considers with understanding that dosa is a conditioned reality. It is hard to realize that cittas fall away so extremely fast, that there are already other moments of citta which have as object the past dosa. It just seems to be the same moment, but that is an illusion. People are discouraged about akusala and believe that there cannot be awareness of it. First there may be aversion, and then understanding can be developed about aversion. That is another moment which is kusala accompanied by panna. We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching so many details about dhammas. Nina. 25570 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Question about Citta Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear KKT, op 24-09-2003 21:09 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...: > What is the << in-between >> > of the falling-away of one Citta > and the arising of the next Citta? N: the citta that has fallen away is a condition for the next citta. This condiiton is: anantara paccaya, contiguity condition. Anantara means: no "antara", nothing in between. Antara means: in between. Only the dying citta of the arahat is not succeeded by a next citta, no more rebirth. Nina. KKT: So there is no << in-between >>, no << hole >>, no << gap >>, between two successive Cittas, right? Thus it is not << really incorrect >> to consider the flow of successive Cittas as a << continuous >> flux, is it? Another question: What exists in the << deep >> sleep? Is there Cittas, Cetasikas in deep sleep? With << deep >> sleep I mean << dreamless >> sleep, an << unconscious >> state not very much different from coma. Metta, KKT 25571 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Question about Thought Dear Nina, I have another question (please don't mind :-)) What exactly is << thought >> in Abhidhamma? I mean << thought >> in the common sense that all of us have the same understanding and usage. Metta, KKT 25572 From: Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "Developing samatha is different from developing concentration. There is no kusala involved in simply focussing on an object, even an object such as a kasina or the breath. Are we still agreed?" Hi Jon, I agree developing samatha is different from developing concentration. From my understanding of the conversation between you and Jim it seems that developing samatha isn't necessarily kusala either. If so, can you give an example? What about taking a lot of naps? Larry 25573 From: Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion TG: "The bottom line is...if the knowledge you are developing is leading away from affliction, then it has merit to whatever degree it succeeds." Hi TG & Sarah, I agree. It occurred to me that it doesn't really matter whether one sees a car as arising (ultimate reality) or as non-arising (conventional reality [concept]). If a car is seen as arising then the insight knowledges apply. If a car is seen as non-arising, insight knowledges don't apply but the car can't be found and its identity is very tenuous. This is tantamount to insight knowledge in that it leads to nonattachment. If we avoid saying either "exists" or "doesn't exist" in either case, the ethical viability of kamma is preserved and we don't stray into the extremes of nihilism or eternalism. One point I would like to add is that "reality" is actually a translation of "dhamma". It might be worth considering whether conventional reality (concept) is less "real" than ultimate reality. Both realities are ungraspable. Also, a question for you and Sarah: in terms of self-view, I was wondering how abhidhamma, or the suttas, analyze subjectivity when it manifests as "identifying-with". For example, I can be subjectively angry or objectively angry. Anger can be an object of consciousness which is not angry. Is lobha, dosa, moha as root consciousness personality view? Is "identifying-with" the same as root consciousness? Is alobha, adosa, amoha as root consciousness personality view? Is sati personality view? Larry 25574 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Dear Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: < snip > One point I would like to add is that "reality" is actually a translation of "dhamma". It might be worth considering whether conventional reality (concept) is less "real" than ultimate reality. Both realities are ungraspable. KKT: A pen or a computer is conventional reality (concept) but I can << grasp >> the pen or touch the computer while I am sure I never can experience a Citta or Cetasika. Why? Because I read somewhere that in a blinking of eye there are more than one billion Cittas! What do you think? Metta, KKT 25575 From: Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:10pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 19 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 19. 10. In the fourth triad, insight-understanding initiated by apprehending one's own aggregates is "interpreting the internal" (6). That initiated by apprehending another's aggregates or external materiality not bound up with the faculties, [that is, inanimate matter], is "interpreting the external". That initiated by apprehending both is "interpreting the internal and external". So it is of three kinds as interpreting the internal, and so on. (6). The word "abhinivisati" with its noun "abhinivesa" means literally 'to dwell on', and so to adhere, or 'insist'. In the Tipi.taka it always appears in a bad sense and always appears in contexts with wrong view and clinging (see e.g. M.iii, 30-31, Nd. I, 436 and also Ps. quoted above at Ch. I, 140). However, in the Commentaries the word appears also in a good sense as at Ch. XIV, 130, Ch. XXI, 73 and 83f., and at MA.i,250 (cf. "saddha.m nivisati", M.ii,173). In this good sense it is synonymous with "right" interpretation of experience. All the bare experience of perception is interpreted by the mind either in the sense of permanence, pleasure, self, which is wrong because it is not confirmed by experience, or in the sense of impermanence, etc., which is right because it is confirmed by experience (see Ch. XIV, 130). There is no not interpreting experience, and it is a function of the mind that the interpretation adopted is 'dwelt upon', i.e. insisted upon. And so it is this insistence or interpretation in accordance with reality as confirmed by experience that is the "abhinivesa" of the Commentaries in the good sense. For these reasons the words "interpretation", "misinterpretation" and "insistence" have been chosen here as renderings. 25576 From: Derek Cameron Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. P.S. -- > "And among the generation whose life-span was five hundred years, > three things increased: incest, excessive greed and deviant > practices It occurred to me that in the text itself the three things said to have increased are adhammaraago visamalobho micchaadhammo. Literally these three mean something like "unrighteous lust, disagreeable greed, and wrong dhamma [?]". Is the commentator correct in glossing micchaadhamma as homosexuality? Derek. 25577 From: Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion KKT: "A pen or a computer is conventional reality (concept) but I can << grasp >> the pen or touch the computer while I am sure I never can experience a Citta or Cetasika. Why? Because I read somewhere that in a blinking of eye there are more than one billion Cittas! What do you think?" Hi KKT, Usually we would say you can't touch a concept but you can touch a rupa. We experience cittas and cetasikas all the time because that is what experience is. But neither concept, rupa, or citta can be grasped as a solid permanent thing. Concept is supposedly not impermanent (non-arising) but it can't be grasped because it is not solid. If we say computers are not concepts but rupas (and possibly namas) we might say computers last a long time before they disintegrate and they can definitely be held in our hands, but our experience of them only lasts a second. So in that sense they are ungraspable. A third possibility is to say concept and reality arise together. The idea of a computer, various rupas, and interpretations of that idea and rupa compound arise more or less together and then are instantly replaced by different ideas, different rupas and different interpretations. Rupa in this sense is the experience of rupa (color, hardness etc.). The idea is to distinguish between experience that arises, concept that doesn't arise, and interpretation that does arise. Eg: white/black/hard, computer/email/tech. stuff, attraction/aversion/bewilderment. Sarah might want to pitch in something here. She is the one to ask why a concept is non-arising. Larry 25578 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Question again :nibbana Dear Sarah Thank you for your information ! "Useful_Posts" are really useful. Regarding "store-consciousness" or something like that, All I can say now from my experiences is that " attachement to self " tends to creep into practioners in a very subtle level and give a kind of fatal damage to their spritual development as Buddhists once "latent citta" or " store-consciousness " is assumed as a kind of paramattha dhamma.That is why "authentic" maha-yana traditions including Vajra- yaha ( Dont feel shocked!) have been interpreting the definition of such conciousnesses with the utmost care. Theravadin's( Shoud I say "Buddha's" (^^)? ) stoic attitude toward such a citta should be highly appreciated. Best wishes From LC 25579 From: lokuttaracitta Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:33pm Subject: parita?E?E?Edharani? Hi, Some buddhist scholar say there are some parita(protection) in pali- canon which are identical with dharani(sanskrit) of maha-yana. All of the parita I have read so far are far from dharani. Is it true that such parita are available in pali-canon? If the answer is "YES", could you give me the examples ? Are they recited often in theravada countries ? From LC "dharani" is a form of spells that is longer than "mantra" and considered to have power to induce various magical effects by its recitaion . It consistes of sounds that carry no explicit meanins ,so it has been untranslated into another languages in most of the cases. 25580 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:53pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 6-8 for comment History of Abhidhamma Slide Contents ============== - Realized by the Buddha the fourth week after His enlightenment - Taught to the Devas in Tâvatimsa heaven for three months during the seventh rainy season retreat - Each day, Buddha gave outline to Sâriputta, who "filled in details" Speaker Notes ============= In the fourth week after enlightenment, the Buddha sat in the Jewel house and contemplated on the Abhidhamma. When the Buddha started contemplating on the most complicated part of the Abhidhamma, Conditional Relations, His body emanated rays of six colours. The Buddha's mother died seven days after giving birth. She was reborn as a male Deva in Tusita heaven. In gratitude to His mother, the Buddha went to Tavatisma heaven to teach the Abhidhamma to his former mother and many other Devas. It took three months of human time (the entire rainy retreat) for the Buddha to complete this task; equivalent to 3.6 minutes of Deva time. Each day, when it was time for His alms-round, He created a Buddha after His own image and willed that the created Buddha teach the Dhamma so much during His absence. After alms-round, He met Sariputta and told him that so much of the Dhamma had been taught during the interval. Three versions of Abhidhamma: - Taught by Buddha in Tavatimsa Heaven (long) - Taught by Buddha to Sariputta (short) - Taught by Sariputta to 500 monks (medium, passed to us) 25581 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:55pm Subject: Back again! Hi Friends, Sorry for the long absence. Please advise if I owe anybody any replies. Metta, Rob M :-) 25582 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi Derek, --- Derek Cameron wrote: > It occurred to me that in the text itself the three things said to > have increased are adhammaraago visamalobho micchaadhammo. Literally > these three mean something like "unrighteous lust, disagreeable > greed, and wrong dhamma [?]". Is the commentator correct in glossing > micchaadhamma as homosexuality? ...... Presumably we are talking about Buddhaghosa’s Suma”ngalavilaasanii, the complete commentary (a.t.thakathaa) to DN, on the basis of the ancient commentaries which he edited and compiled. There is a sub-commentary (.tika) by Dhammapala which explains difficult terms or knotty issues and discusses the rationale and implications further. I don’t know if you have access to this in Pali and whether it sheds any further light on this point. As to whether Buddhaghosa’s commentary is “correct”, I think this depends again on how one considers his work and whether it is acceptable to ‘cherry-pick’ or not;-) If you have access to the .tika or have further comments, I’d be glad to hear. Metta, Sarah ====== 25583 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali study in Bgk. Dear Nina, I agree with all your comments and perhaps when I suggested that K.Sujin doesn’t have a deep knowledge of Pali, it was misleading. I should clarify that what I meant was that she is not an expert in Pali language, as she always says. This is in the sense of being a Pali scholar or grammarian, for example, as I understood Jim to be implying. Of course, as you say, she has a very deep and profound understanding of the texts and Pali terms, as we see it. Like you, we’ve often been present when A.Somporn is called in to help with various meanings or qus about terms and various books are pulled out to clarify. Perhaps we should ask what 'a deep knowledge of Pali' means? ..... >Different texts where the term occurs are > compared, > scriptures, commentaries and subcommentaries. I think that is very > important. .... I agree and apologise if anything I suggested might have implied otherwise. Metta, Sarah ====== 25584 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:44pm Subject: Re: Back again! --- Dear Rob, Welcome back! I met a young Malaysian woman , Miss Wee, during here first trip to the foundation and it turned out she has attended one of your classes. It's a small world but it is natural that those of similar interests and acumulations come togther. It will be so in future lives too. RobertK p.s. back in Japan yesterday, and now enjoying a warm autumm time here. dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Friends, > > Sorry for the long absence. Please advise if I owe anybody any > replies. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 25585 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi TG, I appreciate your further comments and feedback. I’m not sure if there’s any difference (other than terminology) in what we’re saying or not. Perhaps you could kindly tell me if you disagree with any of these points before we go on, to clarify: 1. ‘People’ is a conventional term, a pa~n~natti referring to the 5 aggregates. 2. Khandhas repesented by conventional terms such as people and animals arise and pass away, but the conventional terms are mere designations. 3. Namas and rupas can be directly experienced and known by pa~n~na (wisdom) and associated mental factors. 4. There are no ‘events’ - mere elements or phenomena arising and passing away. (I’m checking because perhaps I mistakenly took ‘unfolding causal occurrences’ to refer to something more than the latter - apologies if this was wrong). 5. Namas and rupas are ‘paramattha dhammas’ (ultimate realities/actualities). 6. They are such because they have lakkha.na (characteristics) and sabhaava (intrinsic quality/particular nature) which can be known. For example, seeing has a characteristic quite different from hearing and quite different from the object seen. 7. These ‘actualities’ are conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta. 8. Wrong views are an impediment. Right views are the forerunner of the other path factors. 9. Arahants have no more kilesa (defilements) of any kind. Sotapannas have eradicated all erroneous self and other views. 10. Finally, I forget if you have CMA (or other AbhidamatthaSangaha transl) or Vism. If so, do you accept a) CMA ch V111, Compendium of Conditionality, 30 Concept as what is made known “...such terms as ‘person’, ‘individual’, and the like, so named [concepts] on account of the five aggregates..................... All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things. They are called concepts because they are thought of, reckoned, understood, expressed, and made known on account of, in consideration of, with respect to, this or that mode. This kind of concept is so called because it is made known.” b) Vism V111,39 “ ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; The highest sense this concept will allow” (Nd 1, 42). See detailed footnote 11 (Nanamoli transl) which details all the kinds of concepts. ***** TG, again, I greatly appreciate your well-considered comments. Pls let me know if I have over-looked any points (I’m in a bit of a rush) and which of the comments above you disagree with (if any;-)). With metta, Sarah ===== --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > "Personality view" has to do with whether there is a view that there is > a > self, soul, controler, agent, entity, etc., that persists apart from > mere > conditions. Since such a condition does not exist, personality-view is > an incorrect > view. However, as you point out next, nama and rupas do exist...and > yes...people are made up of nama and rupas. Therefore...people exist > based on that. > People = The 5 Aggregates, and the 12 Fold Chain indicates the > systematic > dynamics that power them. I don't think that personality-view, > self-view, > identity-view, or whatever term suits you, has anything to do with > whether or not > people exist. > > The conditions that generate what we call a person do occur. People and > > animals and plants actually do arise. There is just no self that arises > along > with those conditions. [....] 25586 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:31am Subject: Mantras Dear Group, What is the purpose of mantras? Is there any place for mantras within Theravada Buddhism? I have a zip file of a group chanting/singing "Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammasambuddhassa" and "namo sakyamuni buddha" in a most melodic and calming manner. Lots of lobha I suppose ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25587 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:53am Subject: Re: Mantras Hi Christine, I was recently asked why we chanted in Pali rather than English (a reference was made to the Catholic Church changing from Latin to English for mass). I answered that, based on my strong attraction to the Dhamma (and Abhidhamma), I am convinced that I was a Buddhist in a previous existence. Christine, I suspect that you were as well. I have no idea what my nationality or my mother tongue was in my previous existence, but I believe that I chanted in Pali. When I chant in Pali in this existence, it creates a link to past experiences and causes feelings of love of the Dhamma to arise in me. These feelings of love of the Dhamma are conditioned by past- life experiences. I recently met some Vajarana (Tibetian) Buddhists who explained to me that a mantra has some sort of power and that a single phrase can summarize the Buddha's teaching into a "concentrated" form. I am not very comfortable with this concept. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > What is the purpose of mantras? Is there any place for mantras > within Theravada Buddhism? I have a zip file of a group > chanting/singing "Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammasambuddhassa" > and "namo sakyamuni buddha" in a most melodic and calming manner. > Lots of lobha I suppose ... 25588 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: Mantras Hi RobM, Glad you're back. :-) I found some Pali mantras/chants on this interesting site. (Lots of stuff for kids as well). http://buddhamind.info/leftside/index.htm click on 'activities' and then 'sound'.- then scroll down to 'mantras' I'm not sure about these repetitive chants (mantras). They seem to have a calming, pleasurable affect, but so did 'radiating metta to self' - which, I am told was an incorrect thing to do. I would think, from the little I know of accumulations and tendencies, that it is likely we have had some contact with the Dhamma and Pali previously. Not sure if that includes previous contact with each other and other likeminded beings. Is there anything about groups of beings meeting each other in more than one lifetime? (Other than Jataka Tales, I mean.) That would sound a little like 'group kamma' and I'm not sure that exists, does it? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I was recently asked why we chanted in Pali rather than English (a > reference was made to the Catholic Church changing from Latin to > English for mass). > > I answered that, based on my strong attraction to the Dhamma (and > Abhidhamma), I am convinced that I was a Buddhist in a previous > existence. Christine, I suspect that you were as well. > > I have no idea what my nationality or my mother tongue was in my > previous existence, but I believe that I chanted in Pali. When I > chant in Pali in this existence, it creates a link to past > experiences and causes feelings of love of the Dhamma to arise in > me. These feelings of love of the Dhamma are conditioned by past- > life experiences. > > I recently met some Vajarana (Tibetian) Buddhists who explained to > me that a mantra has some sort of power and that a single phrase can > summarize the Buddha's teaching into a "concentrated" form. I am not > very comfortable with this concept. > > Comments? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 25589 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry Samatha in the context of samatha bhavana, samatha-vipassana, the punna-kiriya-vatthu etc is always kusala. To my knowledge, it is only when samatha is used as a synonym for ekaggataa cetasika that it can refer to an akusala dhamma. In our thread, where we are talking only about samatha bhavana (the development of tranquility/serenity), samatha is always used in it's purely kusala sense, and we can ignore the other meaning (ekaggataa cetasika). Getting back to our thread then, we have agreed that developing samatha is different from developing concentration. Samatha is a reference to kusala of a very high level, while concentration is a reference to the development of factors that could be either kusala or akusala. If samatha is not the same as concentration, then what is it? Samatha is in fact kusala mental action (i.e., action that is completed through the mind-door) accompanied by panna. Are you happy with this as a working definition of samatha? Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: ... > Hi Jon, > > I agree developing samatha is different from developing > concentration. > From my understanding of the conversation between you and Jim it > seems > that developing samatha isn't necessarily kusala either. If so, can > you give an example? What about taking a lot of naps? > > Larry 25590 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: Question about Citta Dear KKT, Your question is a bit strange. I answer on my own ( I mean before I read up Nina's post ). One is taking an object. Subject = one = Citta Object = an object = Citta The action of subject = is taking ( seeing or realizing or concentrating on ) Htoo Naing ------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > Dear KKT ( phamdluan2002 ), > > Citta can be thought in isolation. But Citta cannot arise itself. It > always ( always takes an object ). Among these objects, Citta itself > is one. > > Citta can be defined as one who is conscious to the object. Or one > who knows the sense. Citta is one of senses. > > Among Lokiya Citta of 81, Nevasannanasannaayatana Arupa Jhana Citta > is the most subtle Citta. But it arises with equanimous feeling ( > Vedana Cetasika ) and other Cetasikas as well. > > Cittas are counted as 89 or 121. If not mixed with Jhana they are 89 > altogether and if Lokuttara Citta arise in Jhana then there will be > 121 Citta. But there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > > > > KKT: Thanks for answering my question. > > I know that I've formulated > my question wrongly. > > Yes, << Citta cannot arise itself >> > as you stated. > > Citta as well as Cetasikas > arise by conditions. > > My question should be: > > Is there a Citta << without Cetasikas >> ? > (ie. Citta as subject and object of itself > and there is no other Cetasika) > > It seems that your answer is Yes, isn't it? > > If Yes then I'll have another question. > > > Thanks, > > > KKT > > > ============ > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" > wrote: > > > > Dear everyone, > > > > > > I have a question > > (please don't laugh at my ignorance :-)) > > > > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > > > My question is: > > > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) > > > > Another way to formulate my question: > > > > Can Citta (Consciousness) be aware of itself? > > (ie. Citta has only itself as object) > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > KKT 25591 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:01am Subject: Re: Question about Citta Dear KKT, Very interesting question. Here again, I answer independent of Nina's answer. It is the place where Attavadha arises. If I say no space, you will ask what is the essence of arising and falling away. Isn't it all the same that the whole piece is one. You might think that Citta lives always and it departs from the body when the body no longer able to live and Citta achieves a next body and so Samsara is that. If you think like this this thinking is the wrong view called '' Sasata Ditthi '' or eternal life belief. If I say yes there is a space, you will ask what is that space and how can it be measured in terms of Nama. All you do at this moment is fancying. Practical matters will more benefit us. Htoo Naing ---------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" > wrote: > > > Dear Htoo Naing, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > Dear KKT ( phamdluan2002 ), > > Citta can be thought in isolation. But Citta cannot arise itself. It > always ( always takes an object ). Among these objects, Citta itself > is one. > > Citta can be defined as one who is conscious to the object. Or one > who knows the sense. Citta is one of senses. > > Among Lokiya Citta of 81, Nevasannanasannaayatana Arupa Jhana Citta > is the most subtle Citta. But it arises with equanimous feeling ( > Vedana Cetasika ) and other Cetasikas as well. > > Cittas are counted as 89 or 121. If not mixed with Jhana they are 89 > altogether and if Lokuttara Citta arise in Jhana then there will be > 121 Citta. But there is no Citta that arises without any Cetasika. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > > > > KKT: Thanks for answering my question. > > I know that I've formulated > my question wrongly. > > Yes, << Citta cannot arise itself >> > as you stated. > > Citta as well as Cetasikas > arise by conditions. > > My question should be: > > Is there a Citta << without Cetasikas >> ? > (ie. Citta as subject and object of itself > and there is no other Cetasika) > > It seems that your answer is Yes, isn't it? > > If Yes then I'll have another question. > > > > > KKT: Sorry, I missed > your last phrase: > > << there is no Citta that arises > without any Cetasika >> > > So your answer is NO, right? > > My next question is: > > What is the << in-between >> > of the falling-away of one Citta > and the arising of the next Citta? > > > Thanks. > > > KKT 25592 From: Derek Cameron Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue no 11. Sexual Misconduct. Hi, Sarah, > I don't know if you have access to this in Pali and whether it > sheds any further light on this point. I use the materials available online at http://www.tipitaka.org where they have the text, the a.t.thakathaa and the .tiikaa. As you say, the Diighanikaaya A.t.thakathaa (DA in the PTS abbreviation system) is also called Suma"ngalavilaasinii. > As to whether Buddhaghosa's commentary is "correct", I think this > depends again on how one considers his work and whether it is > acceptable to `cherry-pick' or not;-) Well ... cherry-pick it if it's right, discard it if it's wrong! > If you have access to the .tika or have further comments, I'd be > glad to hear. I was hoping one of our Pali experts would help here. The .tiikaa suggests that in the expression micchaadhammo from the DN, micchaa means the reversal of the ordinary, and dhamma in this context means nature, or something like that. So, micchaadhammo would mean the reversal of nature, and hence would be a euphemism for (in the commentary's words) "lustful desire of men for men and women for women." Derek. 25593 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:21am Subject: Re: Question again :nibbana Dear Nina, We have long not met since I posted ' Citta As A Leader ' ' Cetasikas As Helpers ' ' Rupa As A Ladder ' 'Nibbana As Absolute Peace ' and ' Pannatta As A Vehicle '. The problem was that I could not manage mails on DSG at that time. AT that particular time there were over 100 posts in a day. So I have stayed dorment since then with only occasional appearing. I like your explanation and quotes. Nibbana is Nama Dhamma. Citta is Nama Dhamma. Cetasika is Nama Dhamma. Rupa is Rupa Dhamma. Pannatti is not an ultimate reality. Citta arises. It passes away. It takes an object.And it can be taken as an object.It is Nama Dhamma. It is one of ultimate realities. Cetasikas arise. They pass away. They also take an object along with Citta. They can be taken as objects.They are Nama Dhamma. They are some of ultimate realities. Rupa arise. They pass away. They cannot take any object. But they can be taken as objects.They are Rupa Dhamma. They also are some of ultimate realities. Nibbana does not arise. Nor does it pass away. It cannot take any object. But it can be taken as an object. As you said it causes bending of Citta or Cetasika. So it is Nama Dhamma.It is one of ultimate realities. Panatti does not arise. It does not pass away. It cannot take any object. It is not an ultimate reality. But it can be taken as an object. Even though it can cause bending of Nama ( Citta and Cetasika ) it is not Nama Dhamma ( this may not fit with definition of Nama ). It is not Rupa Dhamma as well. But without Pannatti, everything is hard to be talked. So I posted '' Pannatta As A Vehicle'. Because it conveys about real Dhamma or ultimate realities. I will be looking forward to hearing your comments on my expression. With Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear L.C., > op 24-09-2003 15:08 schreef lokuttaracitta op lokuttaracitta@y...: > > > Nibbana is defined as visankhara(unconditioned) nama in theravada > > tradition. > > > > Could you please let me know the reason in theravada tradition why > > nibbana is not only non-sankhara ,but also non-sankhara nama. > N: Nibbana is asankhata dhaatu, unconditioned element. It is not rupa: > aruupino: without materiality. This is said in the Dhammasangani: see > "Buddhist psychological Ethics". § 1092. > It is nama. But different from citta and cetasikas which are namas that > experience an object. > The Co, the Expositor, II, The Summary, Suttanta Couplets: the meanings of > nama are: name making, bending, causing to bend. The Pali namati means: to > bend. Nameti: to cause to bend. Citta and cetasikas bend to wards an object, > they experience an object. They also cause one another to bend toward an > object. > Nibbana does not bend toward an object, but it is the object of lokuttara > citta. Thus, it causes to bend. by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of object.> > Nina. 25594 From: Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi, sarah (and TG) - I'm"popping in" to take your test! ;-)) In a message dated 9/26/03 3:47:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi TG, > > I appreciate your further comments and feedback. I’m not sure if there’s > any difference (other than terminology) in what we’re saying or not. > > Perhaps you could kindly tell me if you disagree with any of these points > before we go on, to clarify: > > 1. ‘People’ is a conventional term, a pa~n~natti referring to the 5 > aggregates. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Almost. It's a conventional term corresponding to mind-constructed phenomena which seem to point to entities; they actually correspond to networks of phenomena interelated by a wide variety of relations, and which function cooperatively and harmoniously so as to give the impression of being entities. ------------------------------------------------- > > 2. Khandhas repesented by conventional terms such as people and animals > arise and pass away, but the conventional terms are mere designations. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. ---------------------------------------------------- > > 3. Namas and rupas can be directly experienced and known by pa~n~na > (wisdom) and associated mental factors. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. But so can concepts/thoughts (though not their alleged referents , the pa~n~natti), be directly experienced. The difference is that the concepts/thoughts are mental constructs, whereas the so-called paramattha dhammas are not mentally constructed - they are the raw materials the mind uses in its constructive (sankharic) activities. ------------------------------------------------------ > > 4. There are no ‘events’ - mere elements or phenomena arising and passing > away. (I’m checking because perhaps I mistakenly took ‘unfolding causal > occurrences’ to refer to something more than the latter - apologies if > this was wrong). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree. Dhammas are exactly events and features of events. If a dhamma is not an event or a feature, then it is a "thing" - an entity, and this is where objective substantialism enters in! There are only occurrences and features of occurrences, all fleeting and conditioned. --------------------------------------------------------- > > 5. Namas and rupas are ‘paramattha dhammas’ (ultimate > realities/actualities). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but "ultimate" only in that they are not mind-constructs; they are elementary as regards sankharic construction; they are the basic sankharic building blocks. But they are all empty of self. They are separated out by vi~n~nana from a namarupic flux; they have no true separate existence on their own, being merely fleeting events separated out *by our minds* from "the flow" for which we haven't got a really good name. (Could that be dhammata/tathata/nibbana-dhatu, the reality that is the experience of an arahant or buddha?) This is how I see the matter. (I know - I've "failed the test"! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > 6. They are such because they have lakkha.na (characteristics) and > sabhaava (intrinsic quality/particular nature) which can be known. > For example, seeing has a characteristic quite different from hearing and > quite different from the object seen. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: They have characteristics/features. But they don't have *intrinsic* nature! They are what they are - and they "are" at all - in dependence on other silmilarly empty phenomena, and,thus, their "natures" are *not* intrinsic. Also, mind-constructs, such as the keyboard-construct (a mental construct) that seems to point to keyboard entity has characteristcs as well, characteristics derived from the phenomena that served as its basis. (Uh, oh - heading for an F- grade!! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ > > 7. These ‘actualities’ are conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and > anatta. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep. These basic phenomena/events/conditions are indeed so. And 'anatta' includes not having intrinsic nature. ---------------------------------------------------- > > 8. Wrong views are an impediment. Right views are the forerunner of the > other path factors. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sounds good. ----------------------------------------------------- > > 9. Arahants have no more kilesa (defilements) of any kind. Sotapannas have > eradicated all erroneous self and other views. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So I have heard (by report). ------------------------------------------------------- > > 10. Finally, I forget if you have CMA (or other AbhidamatthaSangaha > transl) or Vism. If so, do you accept > > a) CMA ch V111, Compendium of Conditionality, 30 > > Concept as what is made known > “...such terms as ‘person’, ‘individual’, and the like, so named > [concepts] on account of the five aggregates..................... > All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, > become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) > things. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: The terms and the corresponding ideas do. And the ideas are directly experienced as namas within the namarupic flux. -------------------------------------------------- > > They are called concepts because they are thought of, reckoned, > understood, expressed, and made known on account of, in consideration of, > with respect to, this or that mode. This kind of concept is so called > because it is made known.â€? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Concepts/vi~n~natti are means for communication, among sentient beings and within one's own thought processing. --------------------------------------------------- > > b) Vism V111,39 > > “ ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return. > No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; > The highest sense this concept will allowâ€? (Nd 1, 42). > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm! I rather like that! :-) -------------------------------------------------- > > See detailed footnote 11 (Nanamoli transl) which details all the kinds of > concepts. > ***** > > TG, again, I greatly appreciate your well-considered comments. Pls let me > know if I have over-looked any points (I’m in a bit of a rush) and which > of the comments above you disagree with (if any;-)). > > With metta, > > Sarah > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25595 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question about Citta Dear Nina and KKT, Now I understand what KKT would like to ask. There is no one. A moment later a man appears suddenly. He knows himself. That is he sees himself. This is just to show as comparison but not exactly. At least you will have a clear idea on the question you asked. A Citta arises. Citta arises at that moment cannot take itself as an object. This is totally different from the above example. Let aside five sense-doors and senses. Let's take a journey to Dhamma- arammana. A Citta can knows Dhamma-arammana. In Dhamma-arammana, Citta is included. But The Citta at the start of this paragraph cannot be taken as Dhamma-arammana. If so, when that Citta ( the Citta at the beginning of the above paragraph ) can be taken as an object? Don't you think this is an interesting question? That Citta ( the Citta at the beginning of the fourth paragraph to above ) can be taken as an object again only after 11th or 12th moment after it appeared. This is just contemplation and Only The Buddha will see this Citta. No one will be able to see that Citta at the same time of its arising. Here is a series of Citta. It is a Manodvara Vithi Cittas. There arise a Dhamma-arammana. 1. Bhavangha Citta 2. Manodvara Avajjana Citta 3. 1st Javana Citta 4. 2nd Javana Citta 5. 3rd Javana Citta 6. 4th Javana Citta 7. 5th Javana Citta 8. 6th Javana Citta 9. 7th Javana Citta 10. 1st Tadaarammana Citta 11. 2nd Tadaarammana Citta 12. 1st Bhavangha Citta 13. Manodvara Avajjana Citta 14. Javana Citta ( starts to knows 3. 1st Javana Citta but 7th Javana Citta will well knows than the first. ) This is the shortest period possible to know arising Citta . With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear KKT, > op 24-09-2003 17:18 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...:> > > I know that Citta (Consciousness) > > always arises with a set of Cetasikas. > > > > Is there a Citta that exists by itself? > > (ie. without Cetasikas as its objects) > N: Impossible. But the accompanying cetasikas are not its objects, they > assist citta to experience an object that presents itself, be it rupa or > nama. > 25596 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question about Citta Dear Nina, How nice that you explained to KKT with Paccaya. I will note that. Thanks for your effort in this thread. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear KKT, > op 24-09-2003 21:09 schreef phamdluan2000 op phamdluan@a...: > > > What is the << in-between >> > > of the falling-away of one Citta > > and the arising of the next Citta? > N: the citta that has fallen away is a condition for the next citta. This > condiiton is: anantara paccaya, contiguity condition. Anantara means: no > "antara", nothing in between. Antara means: in between. Only the dying citta > of the arahat is not succeeded by a next citta, no more rebirth. > Nina. 25597 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:54am Subject: Re: Question again :To Htoo and,,,,,,,,, Dear LC, Please see inline text. Htoo Naing --------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "lokuttaracitta" wrote: > Dear Htoo Nating > > Thanks for your constant attention with metta! > > > > We can imagine that 45 years ( 16425 days ) preaching and speaking > > were a lot. The main facts were carried over verbally. Literature > was > > started at the 4 th meeting in Celon or Srilanka. ---------------------------------------------------- LC : > Could you give me names of the literateture ?( LC ) ------------------------------------------------ Htoo : I mean Tipitaka. It is not a name but just a name ( :-) do not be confused ) ( Htoo ) ---------------------------- > > Why were they not included at the 3 th meeting ? ------------------------------------------------------------ There was not any letter or equivalent at that time. ( Htoo ) ------------------------------------------ > > > At the foot of the hill, there are ( are ) all the records of 5th > > Sangha meeting and all Dhamma preached by The Buddha are there. If > > you have enough time you can go there and check yourself. > > I do want to go to Myanmar for retreat before long. If I have a > chance , I will go to see them too. > > I do not know if this question is appropriate or not, but Do you > know any reliable sayadaws who teach samatha before we go on to > vipassana bhavana ? > > > > I have read some words that stated '' the eighth sense ''. I was > > shocked to hear that. > > I can just imagine you were shocked (^^). > > >Anyway, if there is still in doubt about anything, please do not > hesitate. We all should try to our best. This > > is study area. So it is called '' Dhamma Study Group ''. Isn't it? > > Thanks a lot! > > > from LC 25598 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:56am Subject: Egypt Diary: A Bunch of Noise The early morning sounds of birds chirping and roosters crowing are ripped asunder by the wafting, grinding cadence of a loudspeaker `call to prayer'. Its male tones are like a chant and a mutter that follows no discernable rhythm and reaches peaks of intensity that border on screeching. It is 4:30 am and this will be the first of five such blaring announcements echoing forth from mosque's loudspeakers throughout the city throughout the day, calling the faithful to prayer. When I first arrived to Cairo, I noticed these calls to prayer and thought to myself that I was thankful we didn't have them in the US. Then I stopped paying attention to them; then I noticed something else: no one else seemed to be paying much attention to them either. When there is a call to prayer in Cairo, people don't stop what they are doing to pray; life goes on in the streets like absolutely nothing has happened. I have to wonder, if people aren't really following the call to prayer, why continue with all of this noise pollution? I believe the people here have learned to tune it out as much as I have. The Moslems in American still practice their faith without a call to prayer. Why subject everyone, especially non-Moslems like myself, to a daily litany of religious overtures? Honestly, I can understand the purpose to call to prayer somewhat, but what I cannot understand here is the need for businesses to so blatantly demonstrate their piousness. Almost all of the grocery stores and some of the department stores, instead of playing relaxing music like they do in the US, play an extremely loud tape of the Koran being recited (in chanting/muttering style) everyday while shoppers do their shopping. These tapes are often so loud that conversations between shoppers can't be heard over the blaring volume; all sounds are swallowed up in its presence. Personally, I find it hard to concentrate on my shopping with this racket going on and I can hardly wait to get out of the store. Would God, or anyone, want his teachings to become such an annoyance to people? I know that, like everyone else, I am going to have to learn to tune it out. So, do all of these public reminders of religion make everyone more religious? Well, it didn't seem to work on those young men who robbed me the other day. The Prophet Mohammed wanted his followers to remain mindful of God and the teachings, so he devised these methods to remind everyone of God everyday. I wonder what it would be like if my religion, Buddhism, required such public reminders everyday and if the Pali Canon was blared in the grocery store every time I was there to shop for food. I sincerely think that over time it would begin to lose meaning for me. I think that over time the same thing is happening here. Piety and religious feeling can't be forced from the outside; it has to come from the inside. Everything else is just a bunch of noise. 25599 From: Derek Cameron Date: Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: Mantras Hi, Christine, > What is the purpose of mantras? Is there any place for mantras > within Theravada Buddhism? Some of the Thai forest monks mentally repeat to themselves "buddho, buddho, buddho ..." at the beginning of their meditation. This is sometimes called parikamma bhaavanaa, or "preliminary meditation." Ajahn Mun himself taught this method. Derek.