26200 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 10/17/03 11:58:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > ---Dear Ken > For the sake of clarity and so that I can follow the discussions it > might be better to use concept when meaning pannati rather then > thoughts. This is because most English translations of the ultimate > realities that occur when thinking such as vittaka and vicara are > translated as thinking. Thus if you mean concepts say 'ideas' > or 'concepts' rather than 'thoughts' which is liable to confuse > ultimate reality with pannati. > RobertK > ============================== Thank you, Robert! What you are suggesting is a move in the direction of sticking with standard language use, and I applaud it. It happens that the words 'concept' and 'idea' do, very occasionally, refer to intended *referents* of thoughts rather than the thoughts themselves, and when that is so, these words are proper translations of 'pa~n~natti'. However, most of the time, 'concept' and 'idea' carry the same meaning as 'thought', and are more properly translations of 'vitakka' or 'vacara' in these cases. What is needed, it seems to me, is an English term that means "intended concept reference," but I'm not aware of such a term. If there is none such, then this suggests that the Pali word 'pa~n~natti' should be imported into English. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26201 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:19am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken - Just a couple comments: In a message dated 10/18/03 3:07:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > I think the answer is simple; meditation is not the > Middle Way, the practice taught by the Buddha. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, so *don't* meditate, Ken! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > H: >Yes, we all use Abhidhamma and whatever else we like > when it "suits" us. We particularly run to parts of the > Abhidhamma and suttas that seem to support our already > extant preconceptions! When I, for example, pick up what > might be phenomenalism in parts of Abhidhamma or in > certain suttas, why they immediately become the "best"! > We are nearly hopeless, Ken! ;-)) It helps, at least, > for us to be aware of our doing this. This is an example > of how important guarding the mind door is. > ----------------- > > No argument there. Phew! :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------- > . . . . . > > K: >> > >No one is claiming not to have thoughts. 'A thought' > >is different from 'thought' (thinking). And vitakka, > >as found in the Pali Canon, is virtually unknowable > >without a lot of help. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Huh? Sorry - don't get what you are saying. > ------------ > > I see what you mean, it looks like a dog's breakfast. > > In my opinion, you have been equating 'thought' the noun > with 'thought' the verb. In Abhidhamma, a thought (the > noun), is an idea, a concept (pannatti). Thought (the > verb), can refer to vitakka and/or vicara which are > cetasikas. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Our language usage is noun-bound, Ken, an unfortunate fact which helps support our tendency to reify. We talk of cittas as "things", we talk of hardness as a "thing". This is all wrong speech. These are events/occurrences/happenings/ functionings, not entities, and they are all ungraspable. Thoughts are thinkings! ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26202 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:57am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, Regarding meditation practice, one discourse that you can refer to is Majjhima Nikaya 118 Anapanasati Sutta Mindfulness of Breathing http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html I think I can understand your frustration about how to meditate. But please don't give up. Keep trying and verify your own practice with what the Buddha taught. Over time, you will gain confidence. (But it does take time!!) Again, follow what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta and keep trying. Verify your own practice with what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta, as well as what the Buddha taught on what right concentration is. Do you know how to ride a bicycle?? If you do, how did you learn it? Anyway, don't give up trying. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Howard, [snip] 26203 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear Dharam, How have you been. I am so glad to hear from you. I have thought of you after our correspondance, but I presumed that you must have been busy. Did you leave dsg for a while? I hope you will stay on and contribute with your input. op 17-10-2003 06:23 schreef bodhi342 op bodhi342@y...: > The primary intent of my questions was to explore the possibility of > multiple paths to the same 'destination'. We should reasonably > expect that same ultimate reality to be described in subtly different > terms depending on the teacher experiencing and later > describing, ...........in so far as description is possible at all.... > > A valid question sometimes asked is why do 'true believers' have such > an absolute certainty that theirs is the only path to the ultimate > unconditioned reality? All the more surprising because few if any > have actually made the journey! Yet, there is a degree of conceit > and arrogance that sustains such a (self?) view, disguised > as 'confidence'. N: I can understand that you wonder about this, it seems so dogmatic that there is only one way. However, the Buddha spoke in the satipatthana sutta about the one and only way. There is such and such practice, the eightfold Path and it leads to the end of defilements, to nibbana. But let everybody find out for himself whether the development of the Path is the way to get closer to the goal, very gradually. Nina. 26204 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] the usuals Dear Jonothan, op 17-10-2003 14:31 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: we had discussion with Ajarn Sujin at the Foundation, along > with Betty and also (surprise) Jack and Oi from California. N: Please my warmest regards to both of them. I regret not being there to see them also. J: Topics discussed included, in addition to 'the ususals' (seeing and > visible object of the present moment etc), kalayana mitta... N: The usuals, a short reminder, but so helpful today. Lodewijk and I had a beautiful nature hike in crisp, sunny whether, enjoying the autumn (fall) colours. I thought of "the usuals", and the fact that we hear this year in year out and that we never have enough of it. Why? We are captured by the pleasant objects through the eyes and immediately create stories about them. I had to laugh, I was doing this all the time and also thinking of your words about "the usuals". Such a good time with your reminder, it is wonderful. It is so obvious that only visible object is seen, but it is so enticing! With much appreciation, Nina. 26205 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > The text says the only surefire way to know if it is kusala or akusala > vipaka is to know the difference between the two types of cittas! Of > course, this is incredibly subtle (just imagine, an unskilled worldling > already has a hard-time distinguishing between lobha and kusala - which > share the same set of feelings, and the differences between these two are > gross comparatively), and only the most differentiating wisdom can tell the > differences. If you don't have one of those, then you just have to plainly > guess, just like me! > Hi Kom, Thanks for that. We hear a lot about how book knowledge is not enough, there has to be practice. And of course, this is true but it's hard to see how we can study Dhamma without practising it. As you say in the example you give, the Dhamma student has to know kusala vipaka citta from akusala vipaka citta. No doubt, this will entail knowing kusala kamma citta from akusala kamma citta. Then it will entail knowing kusala kamma citta accompanied by panna, from kusala kamma citta unaccompanied by panna. It's hard to imagine how the Dhamma student could investigate these things without, at some stage, wisely considering the conditions pertaining here and now. (In other words, practising Dhamma.) So we're on the right track aren't we? Kind regards, Ken H 26206 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:23am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard In a message dated 10/18/2003 7:12:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > It happens that the words 'concept' and 'idea' do, very occasionally, > refer to intended *referents* of thoughts rather than the thoughts > themselves, > and when that is so, these words are proper translations of 'pa~n~natti'. > However, most of the time, 'concept' and 'idea' carry the same meaning as > 'thought', and are more properly translations of 'vitakka' or 'vacara' in > these > cases. What is needed, it seems to me, is an English term that means > "intended > concept reference," but I'm not aware of such a term. If there is none such, > then > this suggests that the Pali word 'pa~n~natti' should be imported into > English. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard That "intended concept reference" is a nice way of distinguishing it. It seems to me that whether the term concept, idea, or thinking is used, all denote a "mental construction." Seems to me in all these cases -- concept, idea, thought, -- that there is mental activity that "images" past or present experiences. The mental activity and mental image arise and cease due to conditions and are actual occurrances. The mental image "represents" something "beyond itself" and "that thing" does not arise. Personally, I don't even consider "that thing" a concept. To me, the concept is the mental image itself and thinking is the mental activity of interlacing conceptual constructions. I'll concede that the term concept points more toward mental imagery and the term thought (might) point more toward "mental constructing activity." In either case they are both mentality; arising and ceasing due to conditions. They are empty derivitives altering due to causal conditions that are also empty derivitives. To think that a concept can mean -- "intended concept reference" is in my view a flaw in understanding what a concept is. Not sure If you'll agree. I've been using the word "referent" but your phrase "intended concept referent (or reference)" is much clearer and should be incorporated into vocabulary. I will anyway. Thanks. TG 26207 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:56am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, TG - In a message dated 10/18/03 3:24:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > That "intended concept reference" is a nice way of distinguishing it. It > seems to me that whether the term concept, idea, or thinking is used, all > denote > a "mental construction." Seems to me in all these cases -- concept, idea, > thought, -- that there is mental activity that "images" past or present > experiences. The mental activity and mental image arise and cease due to > conditions > and are actual occurrances. The mental image "represents" something "beyond > > itself" and "that thing" does not arise. Personally, I don't even consider > "that > thing" a concept. To me, the concept is the mental image itself and > thinking > is the mental activity of interlacing conceptual constructions. > > I'll concede that the term concept points more toward mental imagery and the > > term thought (might) point more toward "mental constructing activity." In > either case they are both mentality; arising and ceasing due to conditions. > They > are empty derivitives altering due to causal conditions that are also empty > derivitives. > > To think that a concept can mean -- "intended concept reference" is in my > view a flaw in understanding what a concept is. Not sure If you'll agree. > I've > been using the word "referent" but your phrase "intended concept referent > (or > reference)" is much clearer and should be incorporated into vocabulary. I > will anyway. Thanks. > > TG ========================== We understand this matter the same way, and it seems we use language in the same way. With regard to the occasional use of the word 'concept' to actually mean concept-reference, the usage is very limited, and it involves a mistaken reading. What I have in mind are such statements as "The self is concept only" (or "The self is merely a concept") and "Trees are concept only" (or "Trees are only concepts"). These locutions are, of course, not literal, but figurative. What they really mean is that while there are concepts of self and of trees, there is no self and there are no trees, per se. Unfortunately, some folks will understand such statements literally, and then one will encounter inappropriate linguistic mixings/conflations, confusing mental phenomena with their alleged referents. A native speaker of English, it seems to me, should recognize the silliness of a statement such as "The Buddha is a concept". As I see it, this entire discussion is largely a language-usage discussion posing as a Dhamma discussion! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26208 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:51pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: Real Reason Friend James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > As I become more settled into Cairo, I begin to reflect on the reason > I came here. Could these be the right conditions for you to further develop your Brahmaviharas? Metta, Rob M :-) 26209 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: Real Reason --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Friend James, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > As I become more settled into Cairo, I begin to reflect on the > reason > > I came here. > > Could these be the right conditions for you to further develop your > Brahmaviharas? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi Rob M., I would suppose so; however my goal at the moment is not quite so advanced. At the moment, I am focusing on concentration practice and daily mindfulness with the goal of more fully understanding the First Noble Truth. I am examining how my mind creates suffering by constantly jumping, in fantasy, to the past and to the future…trying to make substantial that which is impermanent. When I am able to more fully abide in the present, those fleeting moments, then I feel the peace in my heart that is usually hidden. I am systematically examining the manifestations of suffering that have dominance in my mind in gross and subtle ways. There are layers and layers of suffering to examine, and lots of `mental escape tricks' to try to cease. When I am more established in staying in the present, I believe the Brahmaviharas (Loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity) will arise naturally. I have never had much success at meditations that are supposed to create these states in a somewhat artificial way. As soon as the meditation is over, the good feeling is gone and suffering/self-centeredness comes flooding back in. I am just doing basic breath meditation…forever going back to the basics. However, I think I know what you are driving at and I do agree with you. Cairo is filled with such poverty and unhappiness that one, especially one like myself from a prosperous nation, must develop the Brahmaviharas to some extent as a natural response to the suffering. Right now I know that there are thousands of Egyptians who are hungry and can only afford basic bread and maybe a few vegetables to eat. In the US life is like a shiny amusement park; when I get out into the rest of the world that is when I really begin to see the truth of suffering, on a global and personal scale. Metta, James 26210 From: Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:08pm Subject: Vism. XIV 25 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [Regarding the 4 discriminations, meaning, law, language, perspicuity] 25. "Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law" (par.21): there is the language that is individual essence, the usage that has no exceptions, (9) and deals with that meaning and that law. Any knowledge falling within the category concerned with the enunciation of that, with the speaking, with the utterance of that, concerned with the root-speech of all beings, the Magadhan language that is individual essence, in other words, the language of law (dhamma), [any knowledge that] as soon as it hears it spoken, pronounced, uttered, knows, 'This is the individual-essence language; this is not the individual-essence language'--[such knowledge] is "discrimination of language".(10) [442] One who has reached the discrimination of language knows, on hearing the words 'phasso, vedanaa'. etc., that that is the individual-essence language, and on hearing 'phassaa, vedano', etc., he knows that that is not the individual-essence language. ---------------------- (9) Byabhicaara (vyabhicaara): not in P.T.S. Dict.; normal grammarian's term for an 'exception'. (10) The idea behind the term 'individual-essence language' (sabhaavanirutti), that is to say, that there is a real name for each thing that is part of that thing's individual essence, is dealt with at DhsA. 391-92. Magadhan as 'the root speech of all beings' and the 'individual-essence language' is dealt with in greater detail at VbhA. 387. 'Phasso' and 'vedanaa' as respectively masc. and fem. nom. sing. have the correct terminations. 'Phassaa' and 'vedano' are wrong. 26211 From: monomuni Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:09am Subject: On Voidness ... Friends: On Voidness (sunnata~sunyata): What is the meaning of Voidness ? The eye, visible objects & visual consciousness are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. The ear, sounds & auditory consciousness are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. The nose, smells & olfactory consciousness are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. The tongue, taste & gustatory consciousness are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. The body, touch & tactile consciousness are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. The mind, thought & mental consciousness is are Void of a self & of what belongs to a self & void of what is lasting & void of what is not subject to change & void of what is mine, pleasant & safe. --- What is Characteristic Voidness ? There are two kinds of characteristics: The characteristics of the fool & the characteristics of the wise man … The characteristics of the fool is void of the characteristics of the wise man … The characteristics of the wise man is void of the characteristics of the fool… --- What is Tranquil Voidness ? Through withdrawal, the absence of sensual urge is both tranquil & void. Through goodwill, the absence of ill-will is both tranquil & void. Through effort, the absence of laziness is both tranquil & void. Through calm, the absence of agitation is both tranquil & void. Through insight, the absence of doubt is both tranquil & void. --- What is Supreme Voidness ? This state is supreme, this idea is best, this state is sublime, that is to say: The stilling of all construction, the relinquishment of all substrata of being, the exhaustion of Craving, the fading away of any Greed, Ceasing, Nibbana ! --- What is Ultimate Voidness ? Here in this very same life, one who is fully aware terminates all sensual urge, he terminates any occurrence of ill will, he terminates any occurrence of sloth, he terminates any occurrence of restlessness, he terminates any occurrence of doubt, he terminates any occurrence of distraction, he terminates any occurrence of thought, he terminates any occurrence of glad & sad-ness, he terminates any occurrence of pleasure & pain, he terminates any occurrence of movement, he terminates any occurrence of perception of objects, he terminates any occurrence of perception of space, he terminates any occurrence of perception of consciousness, he terminates any occurrence of perception of nothingness, he terminates any occurrence of perception & feeling. he terminates any occurrence of eye, ear, nose, tongue, he terminates any occurrence of body & mind without arising of new occurrence of eye, ear, nose, tongue, without arising of new occurrence of body & mind. This is the element of Nibbana without trace of being left. This is the Ultimate Voidness, which is the terminating of all occurrence in the Arahat who is fully Aware … --oo0oo-- Source: The Path of Discrimination. Patisambhidamagga: The Essay on Voidness. By Sariputta. For the Gladdening of Good People. Bhikkhu Samahita , Sri Lanka http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ As a flower beautiful and brilliant of hue, but without fragrance, even so fruitless is the well-spoken word of one who does not practise it. Random Dhammapada Verse 51 26212 From: monomuni Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:55pm Subject: The 4 Sources ! Friends: The 4 Sources: The Generosity of Giving. The Kindness of Speech. The Benefit of Service. The Fairness of Impartiality. That is the 4 sources of Sympathy! --oo0oo-- Anguttara Nikaya II 32 : - ] bhikkhu samahita, lovely lanka http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Though a fool, through all his life, associates with a wise man, he no more understands the Dhamma than a spoon (tastes) the flavour of soup. Random Dhammapada Verse 64 26213 From: monomuni Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:06pm Subject: The 5 Powers ! Friends: The 5 Powers (bala): The Power of Faith is unshakable by Scepticism. The Power of Energy is unshakable by Laziness. The Power of Awareness is unshakable by Negligence. The Power of Concentration is unshakable by Distration. The Power of Understanding is unshakable by Doubt. --oo0oo-- : - ] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ The man who is not credulous, who understands the Uncreated (Nibbana), who has cut off the links, who has put an end to occasion (of good and evil), who has eschewed all desires, he indeed, is a supreme man. Random Dhammapada Verse 97 26214 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:03pm Subject: Brief report from Bangkok Dear All Much excitement today as the Malaysian Prime Minister arrived at our hotel to stay, on a visit to attend the APAC conference. Generally the whole city is abuzz as Pres Bush arrived yesterday (staying at the Hyatt Erawan for those of you who're familiar with Bangkok). Security is high, with airport-type scans for body and personal belongings everytime we come back to the hotel, mirrors under the car as you enter etc. This stretch of the river, which contains hotels hosting several of the delegations (including China) is awash with anti-terror squads in high-powered inflatables, helicopters passing overhead in convoy etc. Just nama and rupa and many, many stories. Are the stories real? Jon 26215 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:13am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard, TG and All, I would like to butt in, but hope it won't confuse matters further. Howard: > With regard to the occasional use of the word 'concept' to actually > mean concept-reference, the usage is very limited, and it involves a mistaken > reading. What I have in mind are such statements as "The self is concept only" > (or "The self is merely a concept") and "Trees are concept only" (or "Trees are > only concepts"). These locutions are, of course, not literal, but figurative. > What they really mean is that while there are concepts of self and of trees, > there is no self and there are no trees, per se. Unfortunately, some folks > will understand such statements literally, and then one will encounter > inappropriate linguistic mixings/conflations, confusing mental phenomena with their > alleged referents. A native speaker of English, it seems to me, should recognize > the silliness of a statement such as "The Buddha is a concept". As I see it, > this entire discussion is largely a language-usage discussion posing as a Dhamma > discussion! ;-) But Howard, the fact still remains that you and TG believe that pannatti *arises and falls* no? Now I don't know how close to the truth my own idea of the process is, but I think it may be a good alternative explanation for what occurs when we think that `thinking' takes place. I do not insist upon it, for few reasons, one because I am just speculating based on my very weak understanding of Abhidhamma theory. Secondly, if I am wrong, I am afraid that it might condition wrong thoughts and wrong view. And thirdly, the very fact that there is a strong tendency to attachment and `attachment to views' being one of the nastiest, I should be careful. I do not think that thoughts occur like in films, frame by frame. Take the example what goes on with regard to that which corresponds with the objects `seen'. What goes through the eye-door is only `colour'. Immediately after seeing, because every citta is accompanied by sanna, there is an automatic process of marking and simultaneous recall of what has been experienced in the past (not necessarily of the same kind as the present one). At this point vitakka and vicara together work to take in the signs and the particulars and along with sanna, in an ongoing process, forms what we *think* we think. But I believe, that even when for example we *see* the computer screen in front of us, the process is ongoing and extremely dynamic. Because of our past reliance on concepts, both the `visual' as well as the `word' that give meaning to what we recognize as computer screen, and because of the ignorance with which we have experienced these, reinforced each time by the emotional reactions we have in relation to the experience, this computer screen in front of me will seem more *real* and *static* now. [And depending on how much faith we have in the Abhidhamma, we will in turn interpret this experience as being ultimately real or unreal. :-)] In the time that it takes for a `computer screen' to be the arammana of the citta, I believe trillions of cittas have arisen and fallen. And each of these is a matter of taking cues from past experiences and from what is being experienced through the eye-door at this moment. Even though sanna marks whatever is experienced, recalling it seems, takes time. Even if we were to close our eyes now as we are looking at the monitor, you will see that it takes time for a recognizable `monitor' to appear. And I say `recognizable', because we will never have an exact reproduction. And this is due to the fact not only because ours the citta and sanna are always vipallasa, but more importantly, the experience of the "whole" involves many discrete processes, none of which can be said to involve a `pannatti' arising and falling. But only, sanna, vitakka and vicara along with other mental factors, citta and rupa arammana. Make any sense? But I will be leaving for Myanmar with the group early tomorrow and wont be able to reply to any response until after we are back. :-) Metta, Sukin. 26216 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: Sutta and interpretation. Hi Victor, > Have a good time in Myanmar! Thanks, I think I will. :-) Metta, Sukin. 26217 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Dear Nina, > > Seeing, hearing etc. being > > vipaka, may be the foundation of knowledge based on 'discrimination > > of meaning', while kamma may be 'discrimination of law'??! Nina, am > > I off track? > Seeing is vipaka, it is produced by a cause, thus, seeing falls into the > category of attha, meaning or fruit, or outcome. > Kamma is under the category of cause, hetu, thus, it falls under dhamma > (transl as law). Thank you Nina. The thought is recurring, so I think I might as well ask. The four discriminations refer to very developed panna, but I wonder if there is any corresponding low level discrimination that can arise in ordinary putthujanas? I mean, that which manifests as an `interest' in dhamma and which conditions intellectual right view? :-) Metta, Sukin. 26218 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greatings from Vientiane dear Manu, This brought many memories for me, bec as a young traveller in the 70's I was in Vientiane and lost my heart and my appendix!!!! Fell in love with a Vietnamese boy and got appendicitis [but not really related to each other]. After I returned to Bkk, I had to rest a while before I continued my travels and it was during this time that someone introduced me to the late Ven. Dhammadharo who taught me about the Dhamma, and thro him I met Achan Sujin. I also met Jonathon during that time in Bkk. One never knows where one will go in this life or the ones to follow. Now I'm back in Bkk briefly before I fly to Myanmar with many of the dsg members including Achan Sujin. May we all be well and happy, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Manu Wadhwani" wrote: > Dear Peter, > > Let me introduce myself, my name is Manu Wadhwani and I live in Vientiane. > 26219 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 2:52am Subject: Terms:Howard]) - Thanks, Howard, As Plato said: "If you would converse with me, please, first, define your terms." RobertK -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ============================== > Thank you, Robert! What you are suggesting is a move in the direction > of sticking with standard language use, and I applaud it. > It happens that the words 'concept' and 'idea' do, very occasionally, > refer to intended *referents* of thoughts rather than the thoughts themselves, > and when that is so, these words are proper translations of 'pa~n~natti'. > However, most of the time, 'concept' and 'idea' carry the same meaning as > 'thought', and are more properly translations of 'vitakka' or 'vacara' in these > cases. What is needed, it seems to me, is an English term that means "intended > concept reference," but I'm not aware of such a term. If there is none such, then > this suggests that the Pali word 'pa~n~natti' should be imported into English. > >==] 26220 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:24am Subject: Re: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER FOUR !!!! Dear Nina Nina:" What is the sheep road?" Heheh... only a mention about the "Sheep at the Big City" animated cartoon! ------------------------------------------------------------------- N: Very good to see this. It is so natural. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes!!!!! When you manage to achieve some degree of Samatha and Ekagatta,you find that many diary tasks become more easy to perform! I am aplying these ideas just now to get a better stand at my jogging sessions!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: I had a good laugh. --------------------------------------------------------------------- That was very funny, Nina!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: Yes. It reminds me that even during one bang there are already many > processes going on. Hearing in the eye-door process, like or dislike in the > same eye-door rpocess, mind-door process of cittas which only experience the > sound, after that again other processes through the mind-door which know the > origin of the sound, and think with like or dislike of it, other cittas with > coneit: I am better than my neighbour. --------------------------------------------------------------------- When I´ve read at the first time this passage years ago, this disgusted me because I found it at first glance very "mechanical" and "artificial"... but at the shooting stand I´ve really perceived that´s the way the mind processes run out: from the initial eye-door process to its end at mind conceit "Hey! Don´t shoot at me!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > N:" The Atthasalini gives fine details. If the tongue would not be wet you > would not taste anything." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fortunately all Tiikas have got a easy way to classificate these mind states of consciousness, almost at the Levi´s, Waite´s and Crowley´s style ! At other side, Buddhaghosa´s comments are sometimes very hard to follow up, even in german!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: "P.S. You just copied the Tipitaka in time, because now the Tipitaka org is > off line for a while. I was too late for my Tiika!!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- I´ve copied ALL the tipitaka.org with a software called webcopier. There are others like the Webreaper, Httptrack and so on. This week you, members of these Dhamma Study Noble Society, won´t get the new chapter of ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY, because I ought to study to class examinations about Military Law and Air Force regulations and ordnances. Our class had choosed their name and Battle cry: "Hercules" - the C-130 airplane and not the immortal Kevin Sorbo´s Character!!! (I don´t think that the Hon. Kevin Sorbo could be a special guest anyway!!!!) Metta, Ícaro 26221 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:25am Subject: Re: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER FOUR !!!! Dear Nina Nina:" What is the sheep road?" Heheh... only a mention about the "Sheep at the Big City" animated cartoon! ------------------------------------------------------------------- N: Very good to see this. It is so natural. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes!!!!! When you manage to achieve some degree of Samatha and Ekagatta,you find that many diary tasks become more easy to perform! I am aplying these ideas just now to get a better stand at my jogging sessions!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: I had a good laugh. --------------------------------------------------------------------- That was very funny, Nina!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- > N: Yes. It reminds me that even during one bang there are already many > processes going on. Hearing in the eye-door process, like or dislike in the > same eye-door rpocess, mind-door process of cittas which only experience the > sound, after that again other processes through the mind-door which know the > origin of the sound, and think with like or dislike of it, other cittas with > coneit: I am better than my neighbour. --------------------------------------------------------------------- When I´ve read at the first time this passage years ago, this disgusted me because I found it at first glance very "mechanical" and "artificial"... but at the shooting stand I´ve really perceived that´s the way the mind processes run out: from the initial eye-door process to its end at mind conceit "Hey! Don´t shoot at me!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > N:" The Atthasalini gives fine details. If the tongue would not be wet you > would not taste anything." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fortunately all Tiikas have got a easy way to classificate these mind states of consciousness, almost at the Levi´s, Waite´s and Crowley´s style ! At other side, Buddhaghosa´s comments are sometimes very hard to follow up, even in german!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: "P.S. You just copied the Tipitaka in time, because now the Tipitaka org is > off line for a while. I was too late for my Tiika!!" -------------------------------------------------------------------- I´ve copied ALL the tipitaka.org with a software called webcopier. There are others like the Webreaper, Httptrack and so on. This week you, members of these Dhamma Study Noble Society, won´t get the new chapter of ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY, because I ought to study to class examinations about Military Law and Air Force regulations and ordnances. Our class had choosed their name and Battle cry: "Hercules" - the C-130 airplane and not the immortal Kevin Sorbo´s Character!!! (I don´t think that the Hon. Kevin Sorbo could be a special guest anyway!!!!) Metta, Ícaro 26222 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor (and All, in a PS) Thanks for setting out your thoughts. That makes it easier to have a meaningful discussion, and I would like to respond in detail when I have a chance (I have very limited access to the internet right now). On the meaning of 'more peaceful than that', where we have a difference of interpretation, I think this can only be resolved by the commentary which, as far as I know, is not available in English. So we may have to leave this point for a future occasion! Thanks for the good wishes. Take care. Jon PS to All Christine says hi to everyone. Azita, glad to hear you're in town. Looking forward to seeing you at the airport tomorrow morning --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > It seems to me that we are talking about different questions. > > Let's go back to the original question that I asked: > > Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi? > > To that question, I answered: > > As a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it leads to the cessation > of dukkha. > > Now, to realize the cessation of dukkha right concentration alone > is > not sufficient. However, to realize the cessation of dukkha, right > concentration, as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, is > necessary. > > Specifically, as the Buddha taught, > > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the > dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the > infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell > you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html 26223 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 4:45am Subject: Re:_[dsg]_ICARO´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_CHAPTER_THREE_!!!! Dear Sarah Sarah:"I really enjoy your Dhamma Diary entries;-)" ----------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" We certainly see the concentration at these moments (kusala? akusala?. > You'll have to talk to Jon about the samatha;-)" --------------------------------------------------------------------- I have got a personal viewpoint about this: The act of concentration at this own side is really kusala. The outer manifestation of these concentration - as an external and concrete act or as a mind-phala - is akusala. Anyway, corrections are welcome! Samatha - as I see it - is always kusala! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" p.s Icaro, I'm thinking of you as I pack - also having trouble trying to > stick to the basics;-)" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed! Just for now I haven´t got any time to write the next chapter of ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - I must study all that issues and ordnances of Air Force laws and regulations!!!! Our Air Force Class had finally choosed their name and Battle Cry - "Hercules!!!" - a mention about the famous C-130 airplane and not (Unfortunately!!!) the immortal Kevin Sorbo´s character! Amd - as I´ve already posted to Nina - I don´t think that the Hon. Kevin Sorbo could be our special guest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 26224 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 5:37am Subject: Re: ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY CHAPTER FOUR !!!! Dear Norakat Norakat:" Hi icaro, > > Please don't take offence to my question but ..." --------------------------------------------------------------- No problem, Norakat! --------------------------------------------------------------- Norakat:" Why would a Buddhist put himself in the position to possibly (very > possibly), in the future, kill another being (or many, many other > beings) at the orders of a superior ???" ------------------------------------------------------------- I won´t stress this issue about imperative duties - moral ones or otherwise. Siddartha Gautama was formerly a Kshatria, a member of the Hindu Warrior Pride. No one could feel and know the hardness of a military life better than He did it: the World IS Dukkha and till the blessed day of taking the Bhikkhu´s vows, the average human being is really chained up at the Samsara wheel: killing and being killed, faint pleasures and deep suffering, etc, all these affairs are spinning around the same axle. As a soldier I only pray to never, never, never take off my gun to harm another being... and sometimes you can take out all your life as a private, sergeant or officer without do it! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Norakat:" ...mind you the motives for having to kill could be rooted in the > most unwholesome nature (if not always unwholesome), i.e. not for the > reason for self defence of a country. > > what about sila ?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- Nori, killing other beings is always akusala: for self-defence or for your country´s duty. Since you get the consciousness of having a right perception, right thoughts and perhaps the trends of right actions about these questions, you begin to catch the first glimpses of Sila. I don´t believe in Kamma Determinism: killing other being as a soldier doesn´t transfer the responsability of this act for your superior officer - it´s a personal affair between Reality and your illusory ego, and only taking the firm decision to reach the other shore - the Nibbana - will divert the Kammic consequences (if any) of hitting your life. At the last end, it´s all in your mind. Mettaya, Ícaro 26225 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] bhavanga Dear Lynn, I appreciate the interest of your group in the Abhidhamma. Rob M answered your question and I could add a few remarks. op 17-10-2003 03:42 schreef Lynn Cohen op lynn.cohen@b...: Does this stream of bhavanga > that continues on from life (understanding that it arises and falls away in > the present moment) to life hold all the karmic seeds from our past lives like > a sort of reservoir of information? N: Some people translate bhavangacitta as subconsciousness, and then it seems as if it could remain and store experiences. As Rob M. explained this is not the case. The bhavanga-citta arises and falls away, but it keeps the continuity in the life of an individual. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, and each citta that falls away conditions the next citta, by way of contiguity condition. The bhavangacitta arises in between processes of citta and in this way there never is a gap between cittas. Youu would die without citta. The stream of life goes on and on. Kamma committed in the past, even many lives ago, falls away, but since kamma is mental, its force is accumulated from moment to moment, from life to live. When there are the right condiitons it can produce result later on. You can also notice that what you learnt is remembered later on, and that habits formed in the past, different inclinations, condition different types of citta at the present. This occurs because there is contiguity-condiiton, each citta is succeeded by a following citta. In conventional language we speak of people who have different characters. This is actually due to differences in accumulated tendencies and inclinations. A process that goes on from moment to moment. Thus, each citta falls away but there is a connection of past to present and again from present to the future. I hope this clarifies somewhat. I am looking forward to more input from your group, Nina. 26226 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Hi Larry, op 17-10-2003 23:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I disagree that cittas are born. Only babies are born. This is the > correct use of these words. N: Certainly, babies are born. We say that in daily speech. But we have to study the context and see how born, jaata, is used in the Abhidhammic sense. We spoke about conventional death and momentray death of each citta. In the same way there is birth both in conventional sense, this is dukkha, as well as momentary birth of each nama and rupa, birth of the khandhas, and here we can learn to understand the deepest sense of dukkha. Let us look at the Vis. text again, 24 c: (c) 'Knowledge about whatever things are born, become, brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the things from which those things were born, became, were brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of law"... N: Remember, things is the translation of dhammas. Born: jaata: in PED: born, grown, arisen, produced, become, occurred, happened. Surely the discrimination of law, dhamma, concerns paramattha dhammas, not conventional realities. This whole passage concerns paramattha dhammas. The Buddha also speaks about nibbana as that which is not-born, and surely this means: what is unconditioned. Whatever is born or arises, does so because there are the appropriate conditions. It is conditioned. L:I agree that everything in abhidhamma points > to the present moment. N: Yes, the Abhidhamma really helps us to understand our life at this very moment. Nina. 26227 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:50am Subject: FW: Commentary mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 18 B Commentary mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 18 B 18 B: Cross reference to the Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28), Part I. The Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta states: The Commentary stated before: In the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" the four great Elements are explained in detail by Sariputta. First he teaches the four noble Truths. All kusala dhammas are included in (come together in) the four noble truths: He then explains what dukkha is, ending with: in short, the five khandhas of clinging are dukkha: . Sariputta explained in detail about the four great elements of earth, water, fire and wind. They are the basis for all the other derived material phenomena. For example, colour could not arise alone, it has to be together with these four great elements. And so it is with sound and all other material phenomena. The elements of earth (hardness or softness), fire (heat or cold) and wind (motion or pressure) can be experienced by touch, but the element of water, cohesion, can only be experienced through the mind. This sutta reminds us that there is hardness (earth) in the body, but also outside. When we touch hardness there is no difference, but we do not like to hear this. We find the body very special. Rahula was clinging so much to his body (attaabhaava), but he had to develop vipassanaa pa~n~naa, to realize that there is not the whole body; that what we take for my body are only different elements which fall away immediately. In the ³Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint² Sariputta spoke about the impermanence of outward rupas by explaining about the calamities in nature. Evenso the rupas of the body are impermanent, they fall away immediately. As we have read in the Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: Rahula had to develop understanding not only of materiality, ruupa, but also of mental phenomena, naama, of all five khandhas. When we take them all as a whole, there is the idea of a person. Hearing is naama, a citta that experiences sound, it is not the ruupa that is sound, it is no the ruupa that is earsense. Understanding this, not only by reflection, but by direct understanding of the characteristics of the elements as they appear one at a time must lead to detachment. Clinging to the idea of "I, mine" can decrease. As we read in the Mahaarahulovaadasutta: Nina. 26228 From: Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 3:14am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Sukin (and TG, Ken, and all) - In a message dated 10/19/03 4:13:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@k... writes: > Hi Howard, TG and All, > > I would like to butt in, but hope it won't confuse matters further. > > Howard: > > With regard to the occasional use of the word 'concept' to > actually > >mean concept-reference, the usage is very limited, and it involves > a mistaken > >reading. What I have in mind are such statements as "The self is > concept only" > >(or "The self is merely a concept") and "Trees are concept only" > (or "Trees are > >only concepts"). These locutions are, of course, not literal, but > figurative. > >What they really mean is that while there are concepts of self and > of trees, > >there is no self and there are no trees, per se. Unfortunately, > some folks > >will understand such statements literally, and then one will > encounter > >inappropriate linguistic mixings/conflations, confusing mental > phenomena with their > >alleged referents. A native speaker of English, it seems to me, > should recognize > >the silliness of a statement such as "The Buddha is a concept". As > I see it, > >this entire discussion is largely a language-usage discussion > posing as a Dhamma > >discussion! ;-) > > But Howard, the fact still remains that you and TG believe that > pannatti *arises and falls* no? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: But, as I see it, that depends entirely on what is meant by 'pa~n~natti'. If by that is meant certain mental phenomena, mental activities, that I (and most speakers of English, I think) call "thoughts," then, yes, I believe that they arise and fall, that is, that they do come into and go out of phenomenal existence as do sights, sounds, feelings, volitions, etc. If, on the other hand, by 'pa~n~natti' you mean things like computer screens, I do not believe they ever exist except figuratively - in a manner of speaking. It does *appear*, however, that computer screens literally exist. That delusive appearing is mental projection and reification. Having said this, there is really little else for me to say on this, with the exception that I do find the semi-detailed description you provide in the following on concept formation to be apparently quite well stated. [I'm not in a position to adequately evaluate, being neither an Abhidhammika nor a psychologist.] With metta, Howard > Now I don't know how close to the truth my own idea of the process > is, but I think it may be a good alternative explanation for what > occurs when we think that `thinking' takes place. I do not insist > upon it, for few reasons, one because I am just speculating based on > my very weak understanding of Abhidhamma theory. Secondly, if I am > wrong, I am afraid that it might condition wrong thoughts and wrong > view. And thirdly, the very fact that there is a strong tendency to > attachment and `attachment to views' being one of the nastiest, I > should be careful. > > I do not think that thoughts occur like in films, frame by frame. > Take the example what goes on with regard to that which corresponds > with the objects `seen'. What goes through the eye-door is > only `colour'. Immediately after seeing, because every citta is > accompanied by sanna, there is an automatic process of marking and > simultaneous recall of what has been experienced in the past (not > necessarily of the same kind as the present one). At this point > vitakka and vicara together work to take in the signs and the > particulars and along with sanna, in an ongoing process, forms what > we *think* we think. > But I believe, that even when for example we *see* the computer > screen in front of us, the process is ongoing and extremely dynamic. > Because of our past reliance on concepts, both the `visual' as well > as the `word' that give meaning to what we recognize as computer > screen, and because of the ignorance with which we have experienced > these, reinforced each time by the emotional reactions we have in > relation to the experience, this computer screen in front of me will > seem more *real* and *static* now. [And depending on how much faith > we have in the Abhidhamma, we will in turn interpret this experience > as being ultimately real or unreal. :-)] > In the time that it takes for a `computer screen' to be the arammana > of the citta, I believe trillions of cittas have arisen and fallen. > And each of these is a matter of taking cues from past experiences > and from what is being experienced through the eye-door at this > moment. Even though sanna marks whatever is experienced, recalling > it seems, takes time. Even if we were to close our eyes now as we > are looking at the monitor, you will see that it takes time for a > recognizable `monitor' to appear. And I say `recognizable', because > we will never have an exact reproduction. And this is due to the > fact not only because ours the citta and sanna are always vipallasa, > but more importantly, the experience of the "whole" involves many > discrete processes, none of which can be said to involve > a `pannatti' arising and falling. But only, sanna, vitakka and > vicara along with other mental factors, citta and rupa arammana. > > Make any sense? > > But I will be leaving for Myanmar with the group early tomorrow and > wont be able to reply to any response until after we are back. :-) > > Metta, > Sukin. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26229 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, No problem. Regarding the difference in interpretation in the phrase 'something more peaceful than that', let's leave it like that for now. I look forward to your response in detail. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor (and All, in a PS) [snip] 26230 From: Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Nina: "Surely the discrimination of law, dhamma, concerns paramattha dhammas, not conventional realities." Hi Nina, I disagree. It looks to me that discrimination of cause and effect (dhamma and attha) concerns both paramattha dhammas and conventional realties, or, to put it another way, basic and complex arisings. Larry 26231 From: Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 25 Hi all, It seems that the knowledge about the speaking of language concerning cause and effect ("dhamma" & "attha") is concerned with vocal intimation. In other words, elocution. In a context of reading and writing, elocution is meaningless, but in a context of speaking and listening it is very important. Here are a couple of snippets I was able to scratch together concerning elocution as taught by Chogyam Trungpa, a Tibetan master who taught elocution as an empowerment of speech: Speaking the Queen's Anglish "If you are talking to a bank manager or a lawyer, they will believe you if you speak properly. If a policeman is about to give you a speeding ticket, if you speak to him properly, he might not give you the ticket!" "Chogyam Trungpa encouraged his students to speak mindfully and discover the living essence of words. He delighted in teaching elocution, or speech training, based on the pronunciation of English as spoken at Oxford University in England." "Developing a proper relationship with speech and overcoming laziness and hesitation in the way we use language. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who transmitted this practice,said, "Each word that we speak should be regarded as a gem. When we speak or talk, we should regard words as tangible rather than as pure sound." Larry -------------------- ps: Nina, I think "individual-essence language" as well as Magadhan as 'the root speech of all beings' is meant to be taken figuratively but I ran into some confusion on the reality status of bodily and vocal intimation. On page 241 in CMA it says b & v intimation is unconditioned (not a paramatta dhamma) because it isn't produced directly from the 4 main causes of matter: kamma, consciousness, temperature, and nutriment. But on page 247 it says consciousness produces bodily and vocal intimation. So which is it? Is vocal intimation produced (sankhata) or unproduced (asankhata)? And how does that coordinate with "individual-essence language"? L. 26232 From: robmoult Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:38pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 31 - 38 for comment Cittas in a "Thought Process" Slide Contents ============== Life-Continuum ("Subconscious"): Beautiful Resultant Citta Adverting / Eye-Consciousness / Receiving / Investigating / Determining (What We Experience): Rootless Resultant Cittas (slightly simplified) Javana (Creating Kamma): Unwholesome or Wholesome Registration (Link to Next Thought): Rootless Resultant Cittas Speaker Notes ============= Let us go through the stages of a thought process, according to the Abhidhamma. Between thought processes, the mind is in a "subconscious state". As mentioned in the previous slide, for humans, this is beautiful resultant mental state. When a visible object impinges on the eye, there are a number of mental states that arise in succession. These are rootless resultant mental states. These mental states do not create kamma, they are the result of some past kamma. Next are the javana mental states; these are the mental states that create unwholesome or wholesome kamma. The javana mental states are the active part of the thought process. This is where emotions arise. Finally, there are some registration cittas to provide continuity of the process with the next thought process. Under the Mango Tree Slide Contents ============== At the foot of a mango tree, a man is sleeping with his head covered. Wind strikes the tree. Branches sway with the wind. A fruit falls beside the sleeping man. ("Subconscious") The man awakes. The man removes his head covering. The man picks up the fruit. The man inspects the fruit. The man understands that this is a fruit with certain qualities. (What we Experience) The man eats the fruit. (Creating Kamma; action) The man notes the aftertaste. (Link to Next Thought) Speaker Notes ============= The commentary gives an analogy of how the thought process works. "Subconscious": The sleeping man is the subconscious mind. What we Experience: This is the stage when the mind takes in an object presented to it and decides what to do. Creating Kamma: This is the active portion of the thought process. Link to Next Thought: Finally the registration portion. 26233 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:55pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Victor, Thanks for this message. Although slow to respond, I have been thinking about it. --------------- V: > I think I can understand your frustration about how to meditate. But please don't give up. ---------------- Thanks again. Actually, being frustrated with meditation was never the issue. In fact, I used to be quite happy with it. When I first started looking for other Buddhists on the internet, I was hoping I could teach someone what I had learnt. But I found dsg and my meditation days were over. :-) ----------------- V: > Keep trying and verify your own practice with what the Buddha taught. ----------------- This is the crux of the matter. If I could quote your previous message to me in full: "I think it would be helpful if the discussion is focused on what the Buddha taught." Before we can know what the Buddha taught -- even the basic outlines -- we have to learn something we don't already know. Having chosen one school of Buddhism, we should learn what that school teaches whether we like it or not. I have chosen the Theravada school -- as found in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. You, it seems, reject some of those texts -- "pernicious views," you call them. I can't criticise you for that nor can I claim any moral high ground. Who knows what I would have done if, like you, I had found some of those texts untenable. In principle, however, it is best if we can faithfully study one chosen school of Buddhism regardless of our predilections and biases. After establishing exactly what that school teaches, we can make an informed decision: continue with that tradition or reject it and try another one. In any event, it would be silly to go it alone. We must be prepared to learn something we don't already know -- something that is contrary to our old, cherished opinions. If we select bits of text from here and there, according to what seems right to us, [and virtually start our own Buddhist tradition], then we will learn nothing. We will just reinforce the same, wrong views we started with. -------------- V: > Again, follow what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta and keep trying. -------------- I would like to understand the Anapanasati Sutta. From what I already understand, mindfulness of breathing is, for me, the least appropriate of all Buddhist practices. Dsg friends have pointed to textual explanations of that particular sutta. If I understand correctly, it describes the highest form of practice -- suited only to the greatest minds in the universe. Of all the Buddha's disciples who attained enlightenment, only an elite few did so by practising mindfulness of breathing. ------------ V: > Verify your own practice with what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta, as well as what the Buddha taught on what right concentration is. Do you know how to ride a bicycle?? If you do, how did you learn it? ------------ I said before that I am not taking the moral high ground; so I don't mean to sound judgemental when I talk about 'slandering the Buddha:' I think you will remember the sutta Mike quoted in which 'slandering the Buddha' was described. If a person says that a certain teaching of the Buddha does not need further explanation when, in fact, it does need further explanation, then that person slanders the Buddha. If a person says a teaching of the Buddha does need further explanation when, in fact, it does not, then that person slanders the Buddha. So what [if anything], are we to say about mindfulness of breathing? I tend to think it needs more explanation than anything else. If, anywhere in the suttas, the Buddha refers briefly to mindfulness of breathing [or to development of right concentration], then that seems definitely to be a lesson where further explanation is required. I would not promote the view that it was simple and self-explanatory, like bike riding. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 26234 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Egypt Diary: Real Reason Dear James, I really appreciate your diaries. Life was not easy, and as you wrote, you were sick several times. And that in a strange country. But you make the most of it, taking more time for reading and considering. I hope your health is better now. You write,< I really begin to see the truth of suffering, on a global and personal scale.> I like what you write here, it is good to consider the teachings on different levels. Another level:seeing dukkha also on a momentary scale. This is really difficult, a long way to go. We know merely intellectually that since each moment falls away, no matter pleasant or unpleasant, nothing is worth clinging to. But this is not enough. Nina. op 19-10-2003 00:53 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > In the US life is like a shiny amusement park; when I get out into > the rest of the world that is when I really begin to see the truth of > suffering, on a global and personal scale. 26235 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta and interpretation. Dear Sukin, op 19-10-2003 10:30 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > The four > discriminations refer to very developed panna, but I wonder if there > is any corresponding low level discrimination that can arise in > ordinary putthujanas? I mean, that which manifests as an `interest' > in dhamma and which conditions intellectual right view? :-) N: I do not think there is a low level discrimination for us ordinary putthujanas. We can only read about them and admire and appreciate the high degree of wisdom of those who had these discriminations. Nina. P.S. Looking forward to hear your personal impressions about Myanmar. 26236 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greatings from Vientiane Dear Azita, What an interesting life story I did not know. Please, when you have returned, tell your personal impressions about Myanmar. Nina. op 19-10-2003 10:50 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > One never knows where one will go in this life or the ones to follow. > Now I'm back in Bkk briefly before I fly to Myanmar with many of the > dsg members including Achan Sujin. 26237 From: Lynn Cohen Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 9:24pm Subject: bhavanga Hi Nina and Rob, Thankyou both for shedding light on the bhavanga citta, it is most appreciated. I have made copies of these answers which I will read tomorrow night to our group. Now the initial contact has been made, I am sure there will be more questions! With Metta , Lynn 26238 From: connie Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 10:07pm Subject: Path of Purification Thank you, Christine ~ The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation 11F, 55Hang Chow South Road Sec 1, Taipei, Taiwan, ROC (http://www.budaedu.org overseas@b...) sent me a copy of The Path of Purification! I trust you all are having great discussions. A few of us went up to the Tibetan retreat center near here today and helped one of the monks hang a series of pictures of Jataka tales, and I wondered if the V one was there, but didn't ask. peace, connie 26239 From: Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:41pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken (and Victor) - In a message dated 10/20/03 12:09:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Victor, > > Thanks for this message. Although slow to respond, I > have been thinking about it. > > --------------- > V: >I think I can understand your frustration about how > to meditate. But please don't give up. > ---------------- > > Thanks again. Actually, being frustrated with meditation > was never the issue. In fact, I used to be quite happy > with it. When I first started looking for other Buddhists > on the internet, I was hoping I could teach someone what I > had learnt. > > But I found dsg and my meditation days were over. :-) > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Shhh, Ken! Someone might be listening! (Are you sure you want to really come right out and declare that? ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > V: >Keep trying and verify your own practice with what > the Buddha taught. > ----------------- > > This is the crux of the matter. If I could quote your > previous message to me in full: > > "I think it would be helpful if the discussion is > focused on what the Buddha taught." > > > Before we can know what the Buddha taught -- even the > basic outlines -- we have to learn something we don't > already know. Having chosen one school of Buddhism, we > should learn what that school teaches whether we like it > or not. I have chosen the Theravada school -- as found > in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. > > You, it seems, reject some of those texts -- "pernicious > views," you call them. I can't criticise you for that > nor can I claim any moral high ground. Who knows what I > would have done if, like you, I had found some of those > texts untenable. > > In principle, however, it is best if we can faithfully > study one chosen school of Buddhism regardless of our > predilections and biases. After establishing exactly > what that school teaches, we can make an informed > decision: continue with that tradition or reject it and > try another one. > > In any event, it would be silly to go it alone. We must > be prepared to learn something we don't already know -- > something that is contrary to our old, cherished > opinions. If we select bits of text from here and there, > according to what seems right to us, [and virtually start > our own Buddhist tradition], then we will learn nothing. > We will just reinforce the same, wrong views we started > with. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, do you remember the story of the man impaled by the arrow??? You might consider rereading it! Also, it might be useful to recall that extremes are not always beneficial. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > V: >Again, follow what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati > Sutta and keep trying. > -------------- > > I would like to understand the Anapanasati Sutta. From > what I already understand, mindfulness of breathing is, > for me, the least appropriate of all Buddhist practices. > > Dsg friends have pointed to textual explanations of that > particular sutta. If I understand correctly, it > describes the highest form of practice -- suited only to > the greatest minds in the universe. Of all the Buddha's > disciples who attained enlightenment, only an elite few > did so by practising mindfulness of breathing. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: How ironic, then, that the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta are probably the two most important suttas to the greatest number of Buddhists throughout the world. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------ > V: >Verify your own practice with what the Buddha taught > in Anapanasati Sutta, as well as what the Buddha taught > on what right concentration is. > > Do you know how to ride a bicycle?? If you do, how did > you learn it? > ------------ > > I said before that I am not taking the moral high ground; > so I don't mean to sound judgemental when I talk about > 'slandering the Buddha:' I think you will remember the > sutta Mike quoted in which 'slandering the Buddha' was > described. If a person says that a certain teaching of > the Buddha does not need further explanation when, in > fact, it does need further explanation, then that person > slanders the Buddha. If a person says a teaching of the > Buddha does need further explanation when, in fact, it > does not, then that person slanders the Buddha. > > So what [if anything], are we to say about mindfulness of > breathing? I tend to think it needs more explanation > than anything else. If, anywhere in the suttas, the > Buddha refers briefly to mindfulness of breathing [or to > development of right concentration], then that seems > definitely to be a lesson where further explanation is > required. I would not promote the view that it was > simple and self-explanatory, like bike riding. :-) > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: One thing the Buddha certainly did was to recommend meditation to his followers, again and again and again. And what he recommended to them most of all, was samatha meditation, a form of meditation well known, easy to practice at least in its most basic form, and it was the primary sort of formal meditative cultivation of the mind he gave. The commentaries, which seem to impress you considerably, go into much detail on subjects for samatha meditation, including the breath, BTW. In the Majhima Nikaya, the Buddha encourages his followers repeatedly to practice seated meditation and to master the jhanas. He makes it clear that this makes the mind a malleable, fit tool, for investigation of dhammas. Why should one of the things most often praised and recommended by the Buddha be avoided like the plague? (Just a rhetorical question, Ken. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26240 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 10:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: new member Dear Rob: I appreciate your posts very much. They are concise, to the point and easy to understand. You wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 5:33 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: new member > ====== > > Yes, unfortunately, butchers do accumulate bad kamma throughout > their lives. > > However, it is more serious if they are ignorant of the 'wrong' in > what they do. To illustrate this point, consider who gets burned > more seriously when touching a hot iron rod; he who knows in advance > that it is hot or he who has no idea that it is hot. > > I understand that the above example is from Milindapa~nha. I have always been uncomfortable with it. Normally, a person who knows that he is committing wrong should bear greater responsibility as compared to a person who does not know that he is committing any wrong. The above example seems to suggest that a lay Buddhist would accumulate less bad kamma when he drinks alcohol as compared to someone else just because the lay Buddhist knows in advance that it is wrong to drink. Always looking forward to read your posts. Warmest regards, Manu 26241 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 0:33am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, No problem. Even with your reply, I would still encourage you not to give up meditating. I would still encourage you to keep practicing. I wonder why you gave up meditating if you were happy about it. To me, you did not sound you were happy about it in your last message. I choose to learn what the Buddha taught, and I find that the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka in the Pali Canon of the Theravada Tradition preserve the record of the Buddha's teaching. It is the Buddha's teaching that I choose to learn, not the teaching of a particular Buddhist school or tradition. Regarding the Theravada Buddhism, I respect it as a tradition in preserving the record of the Buddha's teaching. Regarding mindfulness of breathing, I would not say that it is the least appropriate of all Buddhist practices. In fact, I understand that this is what the Buddha said regarding mindfulness of breathing: "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html I don't see that the view "mindfulness of breathing is the least appropriate of all Buddhist practices", as well as the rationale for that view, can be inferred from what the Buddha said in the passage above. I don't see that both the view and its rationale can be inferred from what the Buddha taught in general. However, even if I don't have that view as you do, at least we can both agree with what the Buddha said in the passage above. So I encourage you to follow what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta and verify your practice with the Buddha's teaching. I don't see that encouragement is a slander to the Buddha in anyway. Regarding riding bicycle, I wanted to remind you that a lot of learning, whether learning a simple or complex skill, is achieved through trying and practicing. One could say that one of the skills in riding a bicycle is keeping balance while moving. How exactly should one keep balance while moving? That skill, or the sense of balance, is an experiential knowledge that can only be acquired by actually getting on a bicycle and trying. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Thanks for this message. Although slow to respond, I > have been thinking about it. [snip] 26242 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 0:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: new member Hi Manu, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Manu Wadhwani" wrote: > > Yes, unfortunately, butchers do accumulate bad kamma throughout > > their lives. > > > > However, it is more serious if they are ignorant of the 'wrong' in > > what they do. To illustrate this point, consider who gets burned > > more seriously when touching a hot iron rod; he who knows in advance > > that it is hot or he who has no idea that it is hot. > > > > > I understand that the above example is from Milindapa~nha. I have always > been uncomfortable with it. Normally, a person who knows that he is > committing wrong should bear greater responsibility as compared to a person > who does not know that he is committing any wrong. > > The above example seems to suggest that a lay Buddhist would accumulate less > bad kamma when he drinks alcohol as compared to someone else just because > the lay Buddhist knows in advance that it is wrong to drink. Understanding Buddhist Ethics requires a slight shift in perspective. Modern society measures quality of actions predominantly by the impact they have on our surroundings. With kamma, we focus on the effect of actions on ourselves (agents of actions). According to Buddhism, the "quality" (good / bad) of an action depends on roots; bad things are rooted in greed, aversion and delusion. Good things are rooted in their non-greed, non-aversion and wisdom. The kammic weight or "seriousness" of an action depends on the level of volition / intention. Imagine a lay Buddhist who knows that it is wrong to kill animals and who knows why it is wrong to kill animals. If, for whatever reason, this person kills animals, they are more likely to do so with relatively weak volition / intention. This will have a weak result. Imagine another person who does not know that it is wrong to kill animals. When this person kills animals, it is possible that they do so with strong volition. This will have a strong result. I have changed the example from "drinking alcohol" to "killing animals" because it is easier to link this to the underlying roots. According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, "The fifth precept differs from the preceding four in that the others directly involve a man's relation to his fellow beings while this precept ostensibly deals solely with a person's relation to himself -- to his own body and mind. Thus whereas the first four precepts clearly belong to the moral sphere, a question may arise whether this precept is really ethical in character or merely hygienic. The answer is that it is ethical, for the reason that what a person does to his own body and mind can have a decisive effect on his relations to his fellow men. Taking intoxicants can influence the ways in which a man interacts with others, leading to the violation of all five precepts. Under the influence of intoxicants a man who might otherwise be restrained can lose self-control, become heedless, and engage in killing, stealing, adultery, and lying. Abstinence from intoxicants is prescribed on the grounds that it is essential to the self-protection of the individual and for establishing the well-being of family and society. The precept thus prevents the misfortunes that result from the use of intoxicants: loss of wealth, quarrels and crimes, bodily disease, loss of reputation, shameless conduct, negligence, and madness." Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 26243 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 2:20am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Thanks for this message. Although slow to respond, I > have been thinking about it. > > --------------- > V: > I think I can understand your frustration about how > to meditate. But please don't give up. > ---------------- > > Thanks again. Actually, being frustrated with meditation > was never the issue. In fact, I used to be quite happy > with it. When I first started looking for other Buddhists > on the internet, I was hoping I could teach someone what I > had learnt. > > But I found dsg and my meditation days were over. :-) Hi Ken, I think that both Howard and Victor have given you excellent responses to your doubts about meditation (if Howard ever forms a cult, I think I would be the first to join! I love his posts! ;-), but I just wanted to add a little something else that neither one of them mention. Having doubts about the practice of mindfulness of breathing is quite natural and expected; it is one of the five hindrances that the Buddha taught would occur with all meditation practitioners. This is a tendency of the mind to try to stop the practice in any way possible because it wants to defend the ego. However, when this doubt arises one should continue the practice, as Victor suggests, until the doubt subsides. Like everything, it will subside. I also have had serious doubts about the effectiveness of meditation, and my ability to practice it properly, but then I remember that my mind is just telling me that it is impossible and ineffective so that I will stop. The wrong thing to do when you encounter these doubts is to seek out other people with the same doubts and form a `meditation doubting group'. Talk about enabling! If you choose not to meditate, okay; that is your choice. I would just suggest that you be aware of the true reason you have made that choice rather than to blame the practice. Metta, James 26244 From: bodhi342 Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hello RobertK, Thanks for your response, and good to be exchanging ideas with you again. Let me be totally clear: my questions are about exclusivity rather than faith. Allowing for other possible courses does not have to impact on one's own faith about a particular course to be followed. Are you not somewhat disturbed when some find it necessary to negate the faith of others, just to shore up their own? What is the foundation of such a 'confidence' that requires the demolishing of others? The questions were NOT about the Buddha or others in the past. We can only speculate about so much that is 'known' about historical teachers. What information they had or did not have, how they evaluated it, against what background etc. If we are truly honest, we would categorize much of that under belief, until it is verifiable. Our focus here should be on the categorical assertions of present day 'true believers'. We have a much better idea about the information now available to most people. To be able to reject other claims of having realized the ultimate reality by slightly different paths, there should be more than just a pedantic reading of hearsay. Have these 'defenders' beome omniscient soon after stepping on a chosen path? Your quote from the Mahaparinnibbana sutta addresses people on the path to becoming arahats, but not specifically about nibbana itself: > The Buddha explained in the Mahaparinnibbana sutta that: "in this > Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, is found the Noble Eightfold Path; > and in it alone are also found true ascetics of the first, second, > third, and fourth degrees of saintliness. Devoid of true ascetics > are the systems of other teachers". Do we clearly understand the parameters of these assertions? IF following the Noble Eightfold Path is taken to define where one could find the 'true ascetics', then of course one could not find 'true ascetics', so defined, elsewhere. Other teachers would, by definition, be devoid of such 'true ascetics'. QED? Also, what other teachers are being referred to? Those in the locale that the Buddha was familiar with? The rest of the world? At that time, in the past, in the future? Let's say that the Sherpas who lived during the seventeenth century C.E. knew of no others who had climbed to mountaintops for the 'ultimate view'. Are they correct? Yes, but only within the parameters of the Sherpa's own knowledge. Therefore no need to ascribe arrogance or conceit. If however, 400 years later, a present day Sherpa, with knowledge of other claims of mountain climbing elsewhere, persists in this view, then what are we to make of him/her? Is it unreasonable to consider arrogance and conceit to explain such an atavistic view? > If the Buddha was wrong and there are other teachers who teach the > path to arahantship would he be worthy of the title Buddha? Was he > conceited? Yes, he definitely would be worthy of the title Buddha - since that is based on his own rare qualities, not whether others may have also found their own paths. As I said, this is not about faith in the Buddha's path, but about rejecting the possibility of other paths at this time. I have addressed the second question in the paras above, and respectfully decline the offer either to sidetrack or blaspheme ;-) We have to be careful not to accept invalid assumptions taken as dogma. When the edicts about how women should be treated were discussed a few months ago, many agreed that we had to view those teachings according to the prevailing standards of those times, and they do not apply to the present. Surely, we should exercise similar good judgment about other issues that may have to be looked at in a different light, given information not available then, but available now to open minds everywhere. There are wise exhortations 'not to compare' on dsg, yet when it comes to this topic there is a strange silence - a tacit agreement with exclusivity? Everyone is entitled their own haven of certitude. What they are (hopefully) not entitled to is to deny the existence of other havens when no thorough exploration has been made up and down the philosophical/experiential coast. To explicitly or implicitly condone such self-centered, unsubstantiated views, is possibly a dangerous support along the path to bigotry. At least this seems to be the case with some other faiths, each of which may suggest that they are indeed the only true path. Elevating our chosen path does not necessarily require consigning all others to the dustbin. Tacitly accepting this type of conceit is also not altogether blameless. metta, dharam 26245 From: bodhi342 Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:22am Subject: Re: nibbana Dear Nina, Thanks for your kind words - it is good to be conversing with you again. I appreciate your diplomatic, patient and gentle approach to the problem of path exclusivity. As I wrote to RobertK, we may have to be very careful about the parameters and context of teachings as time goes by. This is not to argue that they are faulty, but rather to be open to the possibility that they were specifically tailored to the prevailing situation, and post-hoc extrapolation is as risky in this, as in other matters. From the little I know of the Buddha, I believe he would have encouraged a clear-eyed appraisal of the facts that are available, instead of dogmatic obedience. Perhaps he himself sensed the probability that his own words would be progressively misunderstood as time went by. Not because they are untrue, but because the ability of later learners to understand the context becomes progressively compromised. Also, because other factors become apparent as time goes by. Neither of these invalidate his exquisite insights. However, they make it all the more important to recognize those instances of conceit mistaken as faith when they occur now. metta, dharam 26246 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:16am Subject: Tiika Vis. 22 Vis. 22: 22. Herein, "meaning" (attha) is briefly a term for the fruit of a cause (hetu). For in accordance with the cause it is served, arrived at, reached, therefore it is called 'meaning' (or 'purpose'). But in particular the five things, namely, (i) anything conditionally produced, [441] (ii) nibbana, (iii) the meaning of what is spoken, (iv) (kamma-) result, and (v) functional (consciousness), should be understood as "meaning". When anyone reviews that meaning, any knowledge of his, falling within the category (pabheda) concerned with meaning, is the "discrimination of meaning". 22. tattha atthoti sa"nkhepato hetuphalasseta.m adhivacana.m. hetuphala.m hi yasmaa hetuanusaarena ariyati adhigamiyati sampaapu.niyati, tasmaa atthoti vuccati. pabhedato pana ya.m ki~nci paccayasambhuuta.m, nibbaana.m, bhaasitattho, vipaako, kiriyaati ime pa~nca dhammaa atthoti veditabbaa. ta.m attha.m paccavekkhantassa tasmi.m atthe pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. Tiika 22: words: sampaapaka: leading to anusaarena: in accordance with dahati: necessitate vidahati: contrive, arrange nibbattati; to arise, to be rpoduced nibbattaka: producing bhaajaniya: division nibbacana: word derivation. sampaapunati: to reach, to attain adigacchati: to attain saadhara.na: general. common. bhaasita: spoken avabodhati: perceive, pay attention to Tiika22. nibbaanampi sampaapakahetuanusaarena ariiyati, adhigammatiiti attho. Also nibbana, in accordance with the cause leading to it, is , as is said, served, reached, and thus, it is meaning. ``ya.m ki~nci paccayasambhuuta''nti etena saccahetudhammapaccayaakaaravaaresu aagataani dukkhaadiini gahitaani. As to the expression, ³anything conditionally produced², this means: it refers to the sections of truth, of cause, of dhamma, of the structure of conditions *, and is taken as dukkha and so on. saccapaccayaakaaravaaresu nibbaana.m, pariyattivaare bhaasitattho, Nibbana refers to the section of truth, and to the structure of conditions, the meaning of what is spoken refers to the section of competency in the scriptures (pariyatti) ** , abhidhammabhaajaniiye vipaako, kiriyaa caati eva.m paa.liya.m vuttaana.m eva vasena pa~nca atthaa veditabbaa. Result and functional consciousness refer to the Abhidhamma division, and because of what is thus said in the text, five categories which are meaning should be known. dahatiiti vidahati, nibbattakahetuaadiina.m saadhaara.nameta.m nibbacana.m. As to the word necessitates, this means, it arranges, by a cause that produces (result)and so on ***, and this (nibbattakahetu, producing cause) is a common word derivation. tadattha.m pana vibhaavetu.m ``pavatteti vaa sampaapu.nitu.m vaa detii''ti vutta.m. It was said, ³It makes occur, or it allows it to be reached², in order to explain this meaning. (tesu purimo attho maggavajjesu da.t.thabbo. ) ............. bhaasitampi hi avabodhanavasena attha.m pavatteti, maggo pana nibbaana.m paapetiiti (tasmi.m pacchimo attho.) Also what is spoken makes the meaning occur because of understanding it, and the Path causes nibbana to be reached........ nibbaana.m hi pattabbo attho, bhaasitattho ~naapetabbo attho, itaro nibbattetabbo atthoti eva.m tividho hoti. Nibbana is meaning that should be attained, the meaning of what is spoken is meaning that must be made known, as to the other meaning, that must be produced and in this way meaning is threefold. ****** English: Also nibbana, in accordance with the cause leading to it, is , as is said, served, As to the expression, ³anything conditionally produced², this means: it refers to the sections of truth, of cause, of dhamma, of the structure of conditions *, and is taken as dukkha and so on. Nibbana refers to the section of truth, and to the structure of conditions, the meaning of what is spoken refers to the section of competency in the scriptures (pariyatti) **, Result and functional consciousness refer to the Abhidhamma division, and because of what is thus said in the text, five categories which are meaning should be known. As to the word necessitates, this means, it arranges, by a cause that produces (result)and so on ***, and this (nibbattakahetu, producing cause) is a common word derivation. It was said, ³It makes occur, or it allows it to be reached², in order to explain this meaning. ............. Also what is spoken makes the meaning occur because of understanding it, and the Path causes nibbana to be reached........ Nibbana is meaning that should be attained, the meaning of what is spoken is meaning that must be made known, as to the other meaning, that must be produced and in this way meaning is threefold. _____________ * Meaning, attha, is the outcome or result of a condition. Nibbana is to be reached by means of a condition, thus it falls under meaning, attha. As to the truth section, the truth of dukkha is the result of the truth of origin, which is craving. Thus it falls under the category of meaning, attha. ** The meaning of what is spoken is the effect to be reached by means of the condition called ³what is spoken². The condition is the competency in the scriptures, as is explained in the ³Dispeller of Delusion², Ch 15, Category section, §1966. Now we see that discriminative understanding of language can be understood ³by means of meaning and so on, which have these as object² as said in Tiika 21. Thus, by means of attha, meaning, outcome or result, and dhamma, cause, we also understand better what is said about language that is uttered. *** This is said about dhamma, law, in Vis. 23. ****** 26247 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paramattha dhammas Dear Larry, op 19-10-2003 22:28 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > It looks to me that discrimination of cause and effect > (dhamma and attha) concerns both paramattha dhammas and conventional > realties, or, to put it another way, basic and complex arisings. N: I believe that cause and effect in conventional sense can be understood without learning the dhamma. When I look at the Vis 21 and at the Tiika I see five items and these refer to paramattha dhammas. Vis 21 has: < But in particular the five things, namely, (i) anything conditionally produced,(ii) nibbana, (iii) the meaning of what is spoken, (iv) (kamma-) result, and (v) functional (consciousness), should be understood as "meaning".> But I agree that what is spoken (cause) and meaning that is understood (meaning or outcome) is more complex. When I studied before the meanings of dhamma and learnt that even pannatti is dhamma, I was at first surprised. Now it is clearer. That what makes known, which is one meaning of pannatti, is cause, *dhamma*, and what is known is *meaning* in this sense. We also learn that the four discriminations are for non-trainers, arahats, and trainers, ariyans who are not arahat. Thus, it is not understanding of cause and effect that is common to us ordinary people. Nina. 26248 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... Hi Ken, > -----Original Message----- > From: kenhowardau [mailto:kenhowardau@y...] > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 11:19 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: particular. specific characteristics...... > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > wrote: > > > Thanks for that. We hear a lot about how book knowledge > is not enough, there has to be practice. And of course, > this is true but it's hard to see how we can study Dhamma > without practising it. As you say in the example you > give, the Dhamma student has to know kusala vipaka citta > from akusala vipaka citta. No doubt, this will entail > knowing kusala kamma citta from akusala kamma citta. > Then it will entail knowing kusala kamma citta > accompanied by panna, from kusala kamma citta > unaccompanied by panna. That's why it is important to know our own limit. We may hear about the different dhammas in very intricate details, but we need to realize that not all those can be known to us. It's possible at least for me to learn more and more about the differences between lobha and kusala, but it is not unexpected that the differences between vipaka, and process cittas, may never be directly known in this life (or the next!). > > It's hard to imagine how the Dhamma student could > investigate these things without, at some stage, wisely > considering the conditions pertaining here and now. (In > other words, practising Dhamma.) So we're on the right > track aren't we? > The question I ask is that is there an improvement of the knowledge that at this very moment, this is dhamma, which is not ours, not us, not within us? How about thinking? We are so used to think that "I" think (and that what I think must be right!), but is it really "I" who thinks? kom 26249 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 1:23pm Subject: "let the Dharma take care of the rest" Rodney Smith taught: Practice the phrase, “Just surrender to the Dharma,” when a difficulty arises in your life or practice. Your job is to be mindful and know what is happening, let the Dharma take care of the rest. See if inspiration and confidence come from repeating this phrase. http://www.seattleinsight.org/faculties_faith.htm "let the Dharma take care of the rest" - does this include creative thinking and problem-solving? Is this what the discussion on non-self means? Thanks / Antony. 26250 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:24pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard, ----------- KH: > > But I found dsg and my meditation days were over. :-) --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Shhh, Ken! Someone might be listening! (Are you sure you want to really come right out and declare that? ;-) ------------ :-) One of the dsg people who have taught me all I know is Robert K -- he meditates regularly. If it's a natural part of daily life, then it doesn't require silabbata- paramasa (belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual). In my case, the novelty of not having to meditate still hasn't worn off. If I was a kid on a bicycle, I'd be shouting, "Look Mum, no hands!" :-) ------------- H: > Ken, do you remember the story of the man impaled by the arrow??? You might consider rereading it! ----------------- In my own way, I AM getting on with the practice: I'm not waiting for 'meditation hour' and I'm not waiting to direct my mind to an object. I understand that dhammas are to be known here and now. ----------------- H: > How ironic, then, that the Anapanasati Sutta and the Satipatthana Sutta are probably the two most important suttas to the greatest number of Buddhists throughout the world. --------------- Ironic and sad but don't let it get you down :-) The Buddha's teaching is to be heard and understood. The fact that millions use it to boost their illusory egos is regrettable but just another symptom of conditionality. Conditionality is everywhere in all things -- it is to be understood. ------------- H: > One thing the Buddha certainly did was to recommend meditation to his followers Why should one of the things most often praised and recommended by the Buddha be avoided like the plague? (Just a rhetorical question, Ken. ;-) ------------- Rhetorical because you know the answer as well as I do? :-) Just for the record: There is no self. Wondrous things like jhana will occur if the conditions for wondrous things are present. Ignorance will occur if the conditions for ignorance are present. Conditions can be understood [thanks to the Buddha], but they can't be controlled. Kind regards, Ken H 26251 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Victor, ------------- V: > I wonder why you gave up meditating if you were happy about it. To me, you did not sound you were happy about it in your last message. -------------- We have a habit of misunderstanding each other. The meditation I practised brought almost instant happiness. It was a form of self-hypnosis couched in Buddhist terms. I can still do it if I want to; even without the Buddhist terms. But I'm more than content to know that reality is a group of fleeting, worthless, impersonal phenomena. Learning this was the best thing that ever happened to me. --------------- . . . . V: > Regarding mindfulness of breathing, I would not say that it is the least appropriate of all Buddhist practices. --------------- Nor would I. Nor did I. I said that, as I understand it, mindfulness of breathing is the least appropriate practice for me. I said that, as I understand it, mindfulness of breathing is the most highly esteemed of Buddhist practices; suited to the most highly esteemed individuals. There can be vipassana development without any jhana development; there can be jhana development followed by vipassana; there can be vipassana development followed by jhana; or there can be both jhana and vipassana developed in tandem. I think this last one involves mindfulness of breathing (not sure). As Jon has pointed out, it is a matter of understanding these four ways, not a matter of choosing one or the other. -------------- . . . . V: > However, even if I don't have that view as you do, at least we can both agree with what the Buddha said in the passage above. So I encourage you to follow what the Buddha taught in Anapanasati Sutta and verify your practice with the Buddha's teaching. I don't see that encouragement is a slander to the Buddha in anyway. -------------- Point taken and appreciated, thank you. --------------- V: > Regarding riding bicycle, I wanted to remind you that a lot of learning, whether learning a simple or complex skill, is achieved through trying and practicing. One could say that one of the skills in riding a bicycle is keeping balance while moving. How exactly should one keep balance while moving? That skill, or the sense of balance, is an experiential knowledge that can only be acquired by actually getting on a bicycle and trying. --------------- The accomplished bike rider still has the idea of a self who can ride a bike. The only way to learn not-self is to practice, here and now, without the idea of self. This is not an easy thing to do: the Middle Way is difficult to see. Trying makes it harder and not-trying makes it harder. Kind regards, Ken H 26252 From: Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:06pm Subject: Vism XIV, 26 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [Regarding the 4 discriminations: meaning, law, language, perspicuity] 26. "Knowledge about kinds of knowledge" (par.21): when a man is reviewing and makes any of the foregoing kinds of knowledge the object [of his knowledge], then any knowledge in him that has knowledge as its object is "discrimination of perspicuity", and so is any knowledge about these aforesaid kinds of knowledge, which is concerned with details of their individual domains, functions, and so on. 26253 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "let the Dharma take care of the rest" Hi Antony, ----- Original Message ----- From: Antony Woods To: Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 1:23 PM Subject: [dsg] "let the Dharma take care of the rest" > Practice the phrase, "Just surrender to the > Dharma," when a difficulty arises in your life or practice. Your > job > is to be mindful and know what is happening, let the Dharma take > care of the rest. See if inspiration and confidence come from > repeating this phrase. Without going into 'Your job', may I ask what you reckon he means by 'the Dharma'? Do you reckon he means the four noble truths? If so, do they seem to you to be able to 'take care' of anything? I don't mean these as rhetorical questions--just curious. mike p.s. I wonder if this resonates for you with any specific teaching in the paali tipi.taka? I can see where certain generalities might be inferred, but any particulars? I do recall various words translated as 'surrender' but can't, off the top of my head, remember the Buddha suggesting this as, e.g., the fourth noble truth (i.e. the way to the end of suffering). 26254 From: Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 26 Hi all, The definition of perspicuity is clarity, intelligence, etc. As described here patibhana (perspicuity) seems to be a synonym for ~naa.na (knowledge). The intimation might arise that this knowledge is not unlike scholastic knowledge. Larry ----------------------- 26. "Knowledge about kinds of knowledge" (par.21): when a man is reviewing and makes any of the foregoing kinds of knowledge the object [of his knowledge], then any knowledge in him that has knowledge as its object is "discrimination of perspicuity", and so is any knowledge about these aforesaid kinds of knowledge, which is concerned with details of their individual domains, functions, and so on. 26255 From: Manu Wadhwani Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: new member Dear Rob: > > Hope this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > It does make things clearer. Thank you & warmest regards Manu 26256 From: antony272b2 Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:29pm Subject: Re: "let the Dharma take care of the rest" Dear Mike, there is a saying "the Dhamma upholds those who uphold the Dhamma" but I couldn't find a scriptural reference. I am interested in learning the meaning of Smith's teaching. It seemed to give a sense of relief when I read it. There is Dhamma-niyama: 5. Dhammaniyama: the natural law governing the relationship and interdependence of all things: the way all things arise, exist and then cease. All conditions are subject to change, are in a state of affliction and are not self: this is the Norm. The first four niyama are contained within, or based on, the fifth one, Dhammaniyama, the Law of Dhamma, or the Law of Nature. It may be questioned why Dhammaniyama, being as it were the totality, is also included within the subdivisions. This is because this fourfold categorization does not cover the entire extent of Dhammaniyama. http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma1.htm This quote might help: The Two Meanings of Dhamma (also by Bhikkhu Payutto) For many people, the term "Buddhist economics" may evoke the image of an ideal society where all economic activity - buying and selling, production and consumption - adheres to strict ethical standards. But such an idealized image, attractive as it may sound, does not convey the full depth of the Buddha's teachings. The Buddha's teachings point to //Dhamma//, or truth. In Buddhism the term Dhamma is used to convey different levels of truth, both relative truths and ultimate truth. Those truths regarding ethical behaviour - both on a personal day-to-day basis and in society - are called //cariyadhamma//. These are the truths related to matters of good and evil. Dhamma in its larger sense is //saccadhamma//, truth, or //sabhavadhamma//, reality: it includes all things as they are and the laws by which they function. In this sense, Dhamma is used to describe the entire stream of causes and conditions, the process by which all things exist and function. Unlike the narrower scope of //cariyadhamma//, which refers to isolated ethical considerations, //sabhavadhamma// points to nature of reality itself, which is beyond concerns of good and evil. In this all-encompassing sense, Dhamma expresses the totality of natural conditions, that which the various branches of science seek to describe. Thus, the Buddha's teachings give us more than just ethical guidelines for a virtuous life. His teachings offer a grand insight into the nature of reality. Given the twofold meaning of the term Dhamma, it follows that an economics inspired by the Dhamma would be both attuned to the grand sphere of causes and conditions and, at the same time, guided by the specific ethical teachings based on natural reality. In other words, Buddhist economists would not only consider the ethical values of economic activity, but also strive to understand reality and direct economic activity to be in harmony with "the way things are." Ultimately, economics cannot be separated from Dhamma, because all the activities we associate with economics emerge from the Dhamma. Economics is just one part of a vast interconnected whole, subject to the same natural laws by which all things function. Dhamma describes the workings of this whole, the basic truth of all things, including economics. If economics is ignorant of the Dhamma - of the complex and dynamic process of causes-and-effects that constitutes reality - then it will be hard pressed to solve problems, much less produce the benefits to which it aims. http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/econ1.htm --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Antony, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Antony Woods > To: > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 1:23 PM > Subject: [dsg] "let the Dharma take care of the rest" > > > > Practice the phrase, "Just surrender to the > > Dharma," when a difficulty arises in your life or practice. > Your job is to be mindful and know what is happening, let the Dharma > take care of the rest. See if inspiration and confidence come from > repeating this phrase. > > Without going into 'Your job', may I ask what you reckon he means by 'the > Dharma'? Do you reckon he means the four noble truths? If so, do they seem > to you to be able to 'take care' of anything? I don't mean these as > rhetorical questions--just curious. > > mike > > p.s. I wonder if this resonates for you with any specific teaching in the > paali tipi.taka? I can see where certain generalities might be inferred, > but any particulars? I do recall various words translated as 'surrender' > but can't, off the top of my head, remember the Buddha suggesting this as, > e.g., the fourth noble truth (i.e. the way to the end of suffering). 26257 From: Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/20/03 6:26:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Why should one of the things most often praised and > recommended by the Buddha be avoided like the plague? > (Just a rhetorical question, Ken. ;-) > ------------- > > Rhetorical because you know the answer as well as I do? > :-) Just for the record: There is no self. Wondrous > things like jhana will occur if the conditions for > wondrous things are present. Ignorance will occur if the > conditions for ignorance are present. Conditions can be > understood [thanks to the Buddha], but they can't be > controlled. > =========================== I have entered jhanic states in the past, because I meditated appropriately - I set up the needed conditions. [Warning! Warning! "I did this and I did that" is figurative speech and is understood to be such.] Had I not so meditated, had the conditions not been established, there would have been no results. I'm engaged in samatha meditation once again and am slowly making progress once again. It is a mistake, I believe, to take no-control and no-self, to mean that nothing can be accomplished. Nothing can be accomplished if the needed steps are not taken. The Buddha didn't tell his followers to refrain from cultivation of the jhanas, there being "no control". He told them just the opposite. And he was nobody's fool. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26258 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:39pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, Thank you for your reply and for sharing your meditation experience. Self-hypnosis is certainly not mindfulness of breathing. I wonder how mindfulness of breathing is the least appropriate for you. I also wonder how you see that mindfulness of breathing is suited to the most highly esteemed individuals. I don't see how those ideas can be inferred from what the Buddha taught. But I believe that you must have a rationale for seeing that way. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26259 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:10pm Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 19 B Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 19 B Cross reference to the ³Discourse on the great Elephant¹s Footprint², Part II. As is explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28): < Ta~n-ce aavuso bhikku.m, pare akkosanti paribhaasanti rosenti vihesenti, so eva.m pajaanaati: So then if others abuse and scold and curse and threaten a bhikkhu, he understands thus, Upannaa kho me aya.m sotasamphassajaa dukkhaa vedanaa, "This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. saa ca kho pa.ticca no appa.ticca, ki.m pa.ticca: phassa.m pa.ticca. That is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact." So: phasso anicco ti passati, vedanaa aniccaa ti passati, sa~n~naa aniccaa ti passati, sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa ti passati, vi~n~naana.m aniccanti passati.> Then he sees that contact is impermanent..." the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and vi~n~naa.na. (translation of Wheel 101) We then read: < Tassa dhaataaramma.na.m-eva citta.m pakkhandati pasiidati santi.t.thati adhimuccati> And his mind enters into that very object (taking it just as an impersonal) element, and acquires confidence, steadiness and decision (herein). > Knowing that what we see or hear are just conditioned elements reminds us of the true Dhamma. If equanimity does not persist in the bhikkhu, he should arouse a sense of urgency (sa.mvega.m aapajjati) as is stated in the sutta. A sense of urgency to develop right understanding at this very moment. We are bound to be distressed about an unpleasant experience or a loss, but when we begin to develop pa~n~naa we can gradually learn from such an experience. Sometimes, when there are conditions, we may even be glad and full of confidence in the Triple Gem, as we also read in this sutta: < Tassa ce aavuso bhikkhuno eva.m Buddha.m anussarato eva.m Dhamma.m anussarato eva.m Sa"nga.m anussarato But if, when a bhikkhu recollects the enlightened One, the Teaching and the Community, upekhaa kusalanissitaa sa.n.thaati, so tena attamano hoti... equanimity with the beneficial (kusala dhamma) as its support, becomes established in him, then he is satisfied.> Sariputta also spoke here about the Buddha's Discourse on the "Parable of the Saw": "Even if bandits brutally severed limb from limb with a two-handled saw, he who entertained hate in his heart on that account would not be one who carried out my teaching." Sariputta explained the conditions for seeing, for the other sense-cognitions and for the experiences through the mind-door, and he explained that the five khandhas have arisen because of conditions. He referred to the Dependent Origination, and he explained that clinging to the five khandhas is the cause of dukkha, whereas the eradication of clinging is the cessation of dukkha. ****** Nina. 26260 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 0:46am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi James, I am a lost cause. I really have no inclination to take up meditation again. Fortunately, my disposition is entirely consistent with what I understand of the Buddha's teaching; That is, with the development of bare insight. If you can convince me otherwise, please do so but it will have to be by referring to the Pali Canon. It would be wrong to rely on strength of convictions: cold hard facts please. ------------- J: > The wrong thing to do when you encounter these doubts is to seek out other people with the same doubts and form a `meditation doubting group'. Talk about enabling! ----------------- I hope you are not referring to anyone we know. :-) Discussing the Dhamma as found in the Pali Canon can involve treading on toes. Some people will be hurt and insulted -- especially if the discussion is inept. But if some people come to Buddhism for the wrong reasons -- because they are in love with meditation, for example -- then they should know that. ----------------- J: > If you choose not to meditate, okay; that is your choice. I would just suggest that you be aware of the true reason you have made that choice rather than to blame the practice. ----------------- In my case, the true reason is not doubt about formal meditation, it is confidence in momentary, conditioned, right understanding (panna). Kind regards, Ken H 26261 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:56am Subject: Re: "let the Dharma take care of the rest" --- Dear Antony and mike, I think this teaching: "Practice the phrase, "Just surrender to the > > > Dharma," when a difficulty arises in your life or practice. > > Your job is to be mindful and know what is happening, let the Dharma > > take care of the rest. " can be taken on many levels. Because all there is is Dhamma. If it is happening this way - whatever way that is - it is because those are the dhammas that are conditioned at this moment. Thinking about the situation is often being caught up in concepts, but insight into the present moment is a refuge that doesn`t depend on external conditions. 'Surrender' sounds a bit corny but I think is actually not too bad a term for the moments when there is a little understanding. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: > Dear Mike, > > there is a saying "the Dhamma upholds those who uphold the Dhamma" > but I couldn't find a scriptural reference. > 26262 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:44am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James, > > I am a lost cause. I really have no inclination to take > up meditation again. Fortunately, my disposition is > entirely consistent with what I understand of the > Buddha's teaching; That is, with the development of bare > insight. If you can convince me otherwise, please do so > but it will have to be by referring to the Pali Canon. > It would be wrong to rely on strength of convictions: > cold hard facts please. > Hi Ken H., I don't think that anyone is a lost cause; we all have the potentiality for change. However, I am not really trying to convince you to meditate. I don't believe in proselytizing. As I wrote, you can do whatever you choose to do. I am merely writing for the sake of the contention. You wrote that you want "cold hard facts", well, here are the cold hard facts as I know them: the Noble Eightfold Path doesn't contain just Right View and Right Understanding (Panna, by your definition), it also contains Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. They all must be developed, as taught by the Buddha. Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration cannot be developed without meditation practice: Jhana, samatha, or vipassana. This is again what the Buddha taught (Further clarified by Ananda). Mindfulness and Concentration are not natural states of the mind in samsara. The confused mind in the state of samsara cannot enlighten itself by will power alone or by having Right View and Right Understanding alone (which I don't believe the Abhidhamma qualifies, but for the sake of argument let's assume it does). This is as simple and factual as I can make it. Actually, I would like for you to tell me the cold hard facts as to why meditation isn't necessary for fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths. What is your reasoning? What are the facts and support from the Pali Canon? Are there posts in the archives or something that lay out the groundwork for this whole school of thought? I have been reading the posts of Jon, Sarah, you and others that speak against meditation practice and I still don't get it. There isn't anything written that is specific enough to pin down as a reason, as I see it. Could you explain exactly what it is that you do that is supposed to end dukkha? In other words, how are you (or your life) different from anyone else who doesn't know the dhamma? What are you doing that is going to end the round of samsara for yourself (non- self)? Metta, James 26263 From: Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:13am Subject: Supports for Investigation of Dhammas [Re: Nibbana a Nama? ...] Hi, Ken (and James)- In a message dated 10/21/03 3:47:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi James, > > I am a lost cause. I really have no inclination to take > up meditation again. Fortunately, my disposition is > entirely consistent with what I understand of the > Buddha's teaching; That is, with the development of bare > insight. If you can convince me otherwise, please do so > but it will have to be by referring to the Pali Canon. > It would be wrong to rely on strength of convictions: > cold hard facts please. > > ------------- > J: >The wrong thing to do when you encounter these > doubts is to seek out other people with the same doubts > and form a `meditation doubting group'. Talk about > enabling! > ----------------- > > I hope you are not referring to anyone we know. :-) > Discussing the Dhamma as found in the Pali Canon can > involve treading on toes. Some people will be hurt and > insulted -- especially if the discussion is inept. But > if some people come to Buddhism for the wrong reasons -- > because they are in love with meditation, for example -- > then they should know that. > > ----------------- > J: >If you choose not to meditate, okay; that is your > choice. I would just suggest that you be aware of the > true reason you have made that choice rather than to > blame the practice. > ----------------- > > In my case, the true reason is not doubt about formal > meditation, it is confidence in momentary, conditioned, > right understanding (panna). > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================ I would like to make a couple comments on what you write here, Ken. A practice of attention to whatever arises in the namarupic stream at "regular times," particularly involving the observation of the tilakkhana in all arising and ceasing dhammas, is most certainly a central and important part of the Buddha's path, and it constitutes an important element of what he taught in the Satipatthana Sutta. I do believe, however, that without several extremely important supports, this will be a practice that only operates at a superficial and relatively ineffective level. To be effective, it must be accompanied by very strong concentration and unrelenting mindfulness. This is not normally the case. An essential means of support, as, of course, you well know, is sila, because a mind that is unruffled by akusala behavior, is a mind that has a degree of basic calm and happiness, and is less inclined to distraction. Conversely, immoral nehavior disturbs the mind and makes it an unfit tool. Sila, of course, is something we all pursue, not just because it is useful, but because it is "right". A classical, overall means of support, obviously, is the entire regulated life of a monk/nun, which fosters all the needed factors. This is the optimal environment for Buddhist practice, but has not been adopted by us, though there may be some monks who are members of DSG - I just don't know. An important means of support repeatedly emphasized by the Buddha, is attaining, or, better, mastering, jhanic states, which keeps discontent, including desires and aversions, at bay, making the mind a more fit tool for investigation of dhammas. This is a classical support recommended repeatedly by the Buddha. Another type of support, particularly emphasized by modern Buddhist meditation teachers, is investigation of dhammas from the state of "neighborhood concentration" attained by directly engaging in such investigation in a context of "restricted input" such as in walking meditation with attention centered on leg and foot motions and positions, or sitting meditation with attention centered on, though not restricted to, a primary area of observation such as the breath or bodily sensations, with such a limiting of scope serving to intensify concentration and mindfulness, and serving to make less likely the getting caught up (or "swept away") in thought and losing mindfulness. This third sort of approach is usually refered to as insight meditation/vipassana meditation/mindfulness practice in current teaching, and it is a kind of a middle-way approach between unsupported attending to what arises during "ordinary times" and the more focussed jhana-cultivation practice. Also falling under such an approach would be, I believe, such practices as the "just sitting" or "silent illumination" practices of Zen/Ch'an. I can attest to all of these means of support as being effective. What is a near-impossible task, however, unless one has unusual accumulations that have arisen from herculean efforts and long practice in past lives, is, as I see it, the attempt to see things as they are during "ordinary times" without support. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26264 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:57am Subject: FW: Hi from Mynmar -----Original Message----- From: sinsk@m... [mailto:sinsk@m...] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 7:29 AM To: dsg Subject: Hi from Mynmar Dear all, Hello from us all. Sarah asked me to post on dsg to let you guys know that we cannot access dsg/yahoo group from Mynmar. We wish you all can be here. With metta, Sarah, Jon, Sukin, Christine, Betty, & Num Bagan, Mynmar ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through MU-Webmail: webmail.mahidol 26265 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:06am Subject: Re: "let the Dharma take care of the rest": To Antony, Mike, and Robert K Dear Antony, Mike, Robert K and all How are you? Antony wrote and asked: "There is a saying "the Dhamma upholds those who uphold the Dhamma" but I couldn't find a scriptural reference. ---- What is the meaning of this expression?" I think the saying Antony mentioned might be a loose translation of the following Theragaathaa verse. "Dhammo have rakkhati dhammacaarim, dhammo suci.n.no sukhamaavahati. "Merit indeed protects the practitioner of merit, The well-accumulated merit brings happiness." Section 303, Theragaathaa. AS for the meaning of the above expression, the commentary explains along these lines. Dhammo means the worldly and transworldly meritorious actions. Those meritorious actions will protect us from miserable experiences and rebirths. And well-accumulated merit will also guarantee us good experiences and rebirths as well as nibbaana ultimately. I hope the above information helps. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" wrote: Dear Mike, > there is a saying "the Dhamma upholds those who uphold the Dhamma" > but I couldn't find a scriptural reference. > 26266 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "let the Dharma take care of the rest" Dear Anthony, You give interesting points for considering. Dhammaniyama is a subject that interests me very much. op 21-10-2003 04:29 schreef antony272b2 op antony272b@h...: Rodney Smith taught: Practice the phrase, “Just surrender to the Dharma, when a difficulty arises in your life or practice. Your job is to be mindful and know what is happening, let the Dharma take care of the rest. See if inspiration and confidence come from repeating this phrase."let the Dharma take care of the rest" - does this include creative thinking and problem-solving? Is this what the discussion on non-self means? > I am interested in learning the meaning of Smith's teaching. It > seemed to give a sense of relief when I read it. > > There is Dhamma-niyama: > 5. Dhammaniyama: the natural law governing the relationship and > interdependence of all things: the way all things arise, exist and > then > cease. All conditions are subject to change, are in a state of > affliction > and are not self: this is the Norm. . N: I made a study of the meanings of dhamma (about 18 meanings) and one of these is Dhammaniyama. I repost (it is in the archives of dsg): You found it a relief to read, "let the Dharma take care of the rest". There can be a relief, but this should be balanced with a sense of urgency to develop understanding of realities, no matter what appears. To give some examples. We may be depressed by the unpleasant worldly conditions of loss, dishonour, blame, bodily sickness. But it helps to know that these are conditioned, dhamma niyaama. There can be more understanding that whatever arises has its appropriate conditions. We may be overwhelmed by strong lobha and strong dosa. These realities are conditioned, we had such inclinations in the past. But no matter what arises, it is fit to be object of understanding. Then the Dhamma takes care of the rest in the right way. We are not leaning back in laziness. If we have right understanding of dhammaniyaama it makes the development of vipassana very natural. No forcing. All akusala has to be known anyway, because what is not understood is taken for self. Ken H just wrote: Good to remember, and take action! Rodney wrote: Mindfulness is not just knowing what is happening, we have to be more precise, and this is what Mike was also suggesting. The question is: mindfulness of what? Nina. 26267 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 26 Hi Larry, I have to look at the Tiika, but I am only at 22. What do you mean by scholastic knowledge ? The four discriminations are not theory for the enlightenend ones. Nina. op 21-10-2003 02:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi all, > > The definition of perspicuity is clarity, intelligence, etc. As > described here patibhana (perspicuity) seems to be a synonym for ~naa.na > (knowledge). The intimation might arise that this knowledge is not > unlike scholastic knowledge. 26268 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Dear Jon and Victor, Jon, you mentioned that we should look at the Co, and I did. Victor, I looked up sutta and commentary, which I have in Thai. See below. op 19-10-2003 13:28 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: Victor: Now, to realize the cessation of dukkha right concentration alone >> is >> not sufficient. However, to realize the cessation of dukkha, right >> concentration, as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, is >> necessary. >> >> Specifically, as the Buddha taught, >> >> "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the >> first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the >> dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the >> infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell >> you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the >> dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. >> >> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html N: the ending of the mental fermentations, the canker destruction, refers to the arahat. The sutta states (PTS) about the monk who enters the first jhana: Co states: these dhammas (te dhamme): the five khandhas of rupa, etc....Aniccato: as impermanent, because of the state of: there is and then there is not.> N: What a good definition of impermanence! Seeing arises, and then it is gone, there is and then there is not. Lobha arises, and then it is gone, there is and then there is not. The Co elaborates on the sutta words: a hurt, and affliction, etc. By being anatta: because it is beyond control, not in anyone's power. Co: We read in the sutta: N: Victor, this is what Jon meant: the greatest peace. Co< The bhikkhu is established in the first jhana, develops strong insight and attains arahatship.> The Co then explains more about the three characteristics and about vipassana that has the three characteristics as object. It states that he should overcome attachment to samatha and to vipassana. Then he can attain arahatship. The Co then speaks about rupajhana and arupajhana. Thus we see, also those who were jhanalabhi, skilled in jhana, had to develop insight so that they could reach arahatship. This sutta deals with the highly gifted person who could develop rupajhana, arupajhana, attain arahatship and attain cessation of perception and feeling, nirodha samapatti. Nina. 26269 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:47am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, I think James has given you a cogent explanation in accordance with the what the Buddha taught. Here I would like to refer to some passages from the Pali Canon, in which the Buddha exhorted bhikkhus to meditate. 371. Meditate, O monk! Do not be heedless. Let not your mind whirl on sensual pleasures. Heedless, do not swallow a red-hot iron ball, lest you cry when burning, "O this is painful!" 372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are found both meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp1/25.html An alternative translation: 371. Meditate, O bhikkhu, and be not heedless. Let not your mind whirl in the strand of sensuality. Do not swallow a metal ball, being heedless, While burning; do not lament, "This is woe." 372. There is no meditative absorption for one who lacks insight; There is no insight for one who is not meditating. In whom there is meditative absorption and insight, Truly, he is in Nibbana's presence. * Here is another passage: "Thus, monk, I have taught about the monk engrossed in mastery over learning, about one engrossed in teaching, about one engrossed in recitation, about one engrossed in pondering, and about one who lives by the Dhamma. Whatever should be done by a compassionate teacher who, out of compassion, seeks the welfare of his disciples, that I have done for you. These are the roots of trees, O monk, these are empty huts. Meditate, monk, do not be negligent lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you." ** An alternative translation: "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html I hope you will find these passages helpful. Peace, Victor * Carter, R. John and Palihawadana, Mahinda, trans. The Dhammapada. New York: Oxford University Press, 1987. ** Nyanaponika, Thera and Bodhi, Bhikkhu, trans. Numerical Discourses of the Buddha; an anthology of Suttas from the Anguttara Nikaya. Walnut Creek, CA: AltaMira Press, 1999. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James, [snip] 26270 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 0:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hi Nina, Thank you for looking up the sutta and commentary. I would not disagree with you. It is just that we have different interpretations about what it means by the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" from the passage: "Mahanama, there is still a state unabandoned by you internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade your mind and remain; for were that state already abandoned by you internally you would not be living the home life, you would not be enjoying sensual pleasures. It is because that state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the home life and enjoying sensual pleasures. "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures. * Let's put aside the differences in our interpretations for now. I believe that both of us would agree that when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures. Peace, Victor * Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi, trans., _The Middle Length Discourses fo the Buddha: a new translation of the Majjhima Nikaya_, p. 186-7. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon and Victor, > Jon, you mentioned that we should look at the Co, and I did. > Victor, I looked up sutta and commentary, which I have in Thai. See below. [snip] 26271 From: Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 26 Nina: "What do you mean by scholastic knowledge ?" Hi Nina, Not theory. Just knowledge of knowledge like a teacher, scholar. I believe a bhanaka is a reciter of suttas. If this bhanaka really knew his stuff he would have discriminating knowledge of knowledge (patisambhida patibhana), scholastic knowledge. Larry 26272 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear Dharam, I think you make some good points. Probably the best step to take would be if you write about any other teachings or religions that you find equal to the teaching of the Buddha in wisdom etc. Otherwise it is speculation that there are such teachers. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342" wrote: > Hello RobertK, > > Thanks for your response, and good to be exchanging ideas with you > again. > > 26273 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 8:44pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Howard (James and Victor), ------------- H: > I have entered jhanic states in the past, because I meditated appropriately - I set up the needed conditions. ------------- Here is a good example of what I was saying to James about treading on toes: How, without being impertinent, can I say that you have not entered jhanic states? (At least, that you have not in this lifetime -- and probably not in this current 'turn of the wheel' -- entered jhanic states.) Obviously, you have had astounding, indescribable, experiences and your meditation teachers have certified them as jhana but you and our teachers can be wrong. I have just looked in CMA for a paragraph I read there some time ago but have been unable to locate since. As I remember it [and I could be wrong], it describes access concentration: (I think access is a level reached prior to jhana concentration; jhana being a much higher level.) This access concentration manifests in truly amazing ways; including levitation. The body of the meditator actually floats above the ground. And this is before jhana! (There's a lot on jhana in UP's, of course.) I doubt very much there is an accomplished jhana practitioner living on earth today. In the Buddha's era, there were many, many people living alone literally at the bases of trees in abandoned cemeteries or remote forests. Their lives were totally devoted to jhana development. When they died and were reborn, they continued where they had left off -- such was the power of their training. Of those who seriously embarked on this course of training, only one in a thousand (I think those are the figures), succeeded in developing access concentration. In turn, only one in a thousand of these developed the first jhana; and so on to the eighth jhana. So it's a really, really rare and powerful concentration; unlike anything known on earth today (IMHO). ----------------- H: > [Warning! Warning! "I did this and I did that" is figurative speech and is understood to be such.] ----------------- Good, I'll hold you to that. :-) --------------- H: > Had I not so meditated, had the conditions not been established, there would have been no results. --------------- I think we can all agree on that (as figurative speech). ----------------- . . . . H: > It is a mistake, I believe, to take no-control and no-self, to mean that nothing can be accomplished. ----------------- Agreed: that would, in the absolute (non-figurative), sense, be wrong view (miccha-ditthi). (In the conventional world though, who can say what is true and what is false? Strong arguments can be made for and against any proposition. But I digress.) --------------- H: > Nothing can be accomplished if the needed steps are not taken. --------------- Yes, figuratively speaking, we must get on a bicycle [repeatedly], before we can ride it properly: We must live a thousand consecutive lifetimes at the bases of trees before we can experience jhana. BUT, figuratively speaking, does the same apply to vipassana? There are no bases of trees needed there (even kings and merchants have developed vipassana). Figuratively speaking, the steps are: hear the true Dhamma from a reliable source, consider it, discuss it and actually know rupa as rupa, nama as nama, with deeper and deeper levels of insight. These are the only required 'steps' before eventually, [after who knows how many lifetimes], reaching the Eightfold Path. -------------- H: > The Buddha didn't tell his followers to refrain from cultivation of the jhanas, there being "no control". He told them just the opposite. -------------- Yes, if a person is suited to jhana, he should practise jhana: if he is suited to being a merchant, he should be a merchant: no out-of-the-ordinary steps are needed for vipassana. Even so, those steps are not carried out by virtue of control over reaity; it just seems that way. ---------------- H: > And he was nobody's fool. --------------- The Buddha knew and taught absolute realty. I think you and I agree on this but not so Victor and maybe not James. Leaving aside the figurative speech, there are just the five khandhas that arise, persist and cease all in this present, fleeting moment. Nowhere, are there good friends, monks, kings or merchants -- there are no trees and no lifetimes spent seated at the bases of them. Kind regards, Ken H 26274 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Re: _[dsg]_ICARO´S_BIRTHDAY Dear Icaro, Many happy returns, and may your understanding of dhamma in daily life grow. Sarah cannot answer you now, she is in Myanmar. op 19-10-2003 13:45 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > The act of concentration at this own side is really kusala. > The outer manifestation of these concentration - as an external > and concrete act or as a mind-phala - is akusala. Anyway, corrections > are welcome! > Samatha - as I see it - is always kusala! N: There is concentration with each citta as you know. I would not separate citta from outward manifestation. The citta with concentration, kusala or akusala can motivate actions. Samatha bhavana is always kusala, it is mental development. I: Just for now I haven´t got any time to write the next chapter of > ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - - "Hercules!!!" - a mention about the famous C-130 airplane and > not (Unfortunately!!!) the immortal Kevin Sorbo´s character! N: This is probably a cartoon? ;-) Never heard of it. I do not look at cartoons, my brother does. I understood you have some time off at home, and I hope you have a nice and also a fruitful day, Nina. 26275 From: Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi, Ken - Okay, Ken, as I said before: "So, don't meditate!" ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/21/03 11:46:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (James and Victor), > > ------------- > H: >I have entered jhanic states in the past, because I > meditated appropriately - I set up the needed conditions. > ------------- > > Here is a good example of what I was saying to James > about treading on toes: How, without being impertinent, > can I say that you have not entered jhanic states? (At > least, that you have not in this lifetime -- and probably > not in this current 'turn of the wheel' -- entered jhanic > states.) Obviously, you have had astounding, > indescribable, experiences and your meditation teachers > have certified them as jhana but you and our teachers can > be wrong. > > I have just looked in CMA for a paragraph I read there > some time ago but have been unable to locate since. As I > remember it [and I could be wrong], it describes access > concentration: (I think access is a level reached prior > to jhana concentration; jhana being a much higher level.) > This access concentration manifests in truly amazing > ways; including levitation. The body of the meditator > actually floats above the ground. And this is before > jhana! (There's a lot on jhana in UP's, of course.) > > I doubt very much there is an accomplished jhana > practitioner living on earth today. In the Buddha's era, > there were many, many people living alone literally at > the bases of trees in abandoned cemeteries or remote > forests. Their lives were totally devoted to jhana > development. When they died and were reborn, they > continued where they had left off -- such was the power > of their training. Of those who seriously embarked on > this course of training, only one in a thousand (I think > those are the figures), succeeded in developing access > concentration. In turn, only one in a thousand of these > developed the first jhana; and so on to the eighth jhana. > > So it's a really, really rare and powerful concentration; > unlike anything known on earth today (IMHO). > > ----------------- > H: >[Warning! Warning! "I did this and I > did that" is figurative speech and is understood to be > such.] > ----------------- > > Good, I'll hold you to that. > :-) > > --------------- > H: >Had I not so meditated, had the conditions not been > established, there would have been no results. > --------------- > > I think we can all agree on that (as figurative speech). > > ----------------- > . . . . > H: >It is a mistake, I believe, to take no-control and > no-self, to mean that nothing can be accomplished. > ----------------- > > Agreed: that would, in the absolute (non-figurative), > sense, be wrong view (miccha-ditthi). > > (In the conventional world though, who can say what is > true and what is false? Strong arguments can be made for > and against any proposition. But I digress.) > > --------------- > H: >Nothing can be accomplished if the needed steps are > not taken. > --------------- > > Yes, figuratively speaking, we must get on a bicycle > [repeatedly], before we can ride it properly: We must > live a thousand consecutive lifetimes at the bases of > trees before we can experience jhana. > > BUT, figuratively speaking, does the same apply to > vipassana? There are no bases of trees needed there > (even kings and merchants have developed vipassana). > Figuratively speaking, the steps are: hear the true > Dhamma from a reliable source, consider it, discuss it > and actually know rupa as rupa, nama as nama, with deeper > and deeper levels of insight. These are the only > required 'steps' before eventually, [after who knows how > many lifetimes], reaching the Eightfold Path. > > -------------- > H: >The Buddha didn't tell his followers to refrain from > cultivation of the jhanas, there being "no control". He > told them just the opposite. > -------------- > > Yes, if a person is suited to jhana, he should practise > jhana: if he is suited to being a merchant, he should be > a merchant: no out-of-the-ordinary steps are needed for > vipassana. Even so, those steps are not carried out by > virtue of control over reaity; it just seems that way. > > ---------------- > H: >And he was nobody's fool. > --------------- > > The Buddha knew and taught absolute realty. I think you > and I agree on this but not so Victor and maybe not > James. Leaving aside the figurative speech, there are > just the five khandhas that arise, persist and cease all > in this present, fleeting moment. Nowhere, are there > good friends, monks, kings or merchants -- there are no > trees and no lifetimes spent seated at the bases of them. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26276 From: robmoult Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:12pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Consciousness (Citta) & Mental Factors (Cetasikas) Slide Contents ============== Unwholesome Cittas (Between 15 and 22 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas - Unwholesome Cetasikas Wholesome Cittas (Between 31 and 38 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas - Wholesome Cetasikas Rootless Cittas (Between 7 and 12 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas Speaker Notes ============= One of the definitions of citta mentioned earlier was, "the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object. The accompanying mental factors are the cetasikas; the second type of ultimate reality. Cittas never arise without cetasikas and cetasikas depend upon citta to get access to an object. Cittas are pure awareness; it is the accompanying cetasikas that determine if the citta is unwholesome, wholesome or neutral. The Abhidhamma lists three classes of cetasikas: - Ethically variable: can be unwholesome, wholesome or neutral - Unwholesome: always bad - Wholesome: always good Ethically Variable Cetasikas Slide Contents ============== In all cittas: - Contact / Sense Impression - Feeling / Sensation - Perception / Recognition - Volition / Intention / Will - One-pointedness / Concentration - Life Faculty / Vitality - Attention / Advertence / Reflection In some cittas: - Initial Application / Applied Thinking - Sustained Application / Discursive Thinking - Determination / Decision - Energy / Effort / Exertion - Enthusiasm / Zest / Rapture / Interest - Desire / Zeal / Wish Speaker Notes ============= This is the list of the 13 mental factors which are unwholesome when they arise in unwholesome cittas, wholesome when they arise in unwholesome cittas and neutral when they arise in a neutral citta. In the seeing-consciousness citta, each cetasika has a task to perform as follows: - Contact connects with the visible object - Feeling experiences the "taste" of the visible object - Perception marks and remembers the visible object - Volition coordinates the tasks of the accompanying mental factors - One-pointedness focuses on the visible object - Life faculty sustains the citta and accompanying mental factors until they fall away - Attention drives the citta and the accompanying mental factors towards the visible object 26277 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 0:58am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > The Buddha knew and taught absolute realty. I think you > and I agree on this but not so Victor and maybe not > James. Hi Ken, For the record, I believe that the Buddha knew absolute reality but he didn't teach it. The Buddha only taught suffering and the end to suffering...that was it. Why would he attempt to teach absolute reality to humans who are mired in ignorance? It would be an impossible task. The Abhidhamma, not taught by the Buddha, attempts this impossible task and fails, in my opinion. Metta, James ps. Everything you have to say about the Jhanas is not supported by the suttas, it comes from secondary texts. The Buddha was the absolute authority and only what he taught should be considered. Secondly, let's just say that it does take an incredibly long time to develop jhana, so what? That is more reason for you to stop complaining about it and begin practicing! You are wasting time! 26278 From: Sugiarto Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 0:24am Subject: Just to say Hello to All Member... Namo Buddhaya... Let's me introduces myself first, My Name is Sugiarto Limawan , Male, 26th years Old, lived in Jakarta- Indonesia. I interesting with "Dhamma Study Group" mailing list to find out about Buddhist , I still a member of Local Buddhist's Mailing list, such as: Mahasati, SamaggiJaya and others . I know DSG from someone ,who are member of one buddhits's mailing list. NB: I'm sorry , if my english so bad , because i'm not expert in english. Mettacittena, S.L 26279 From: robmoult Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: Just to say Hello to All Member... Hi Sugiarto, Selamat Datang! (My wife is Indonesian and I lived in Jakarta 15 years ago). The best way to get involved in the group is to ask a question or make a comment on somebody else's post. I think you will find the group here to be quite friendly. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sugiarto" wrote: > Namo Buddhaya... > > Let's me introduces myself first, > My Name is Sugiarto Limawan , Male, 26th years Old, lived in Jakarta- > Indonesia. > > I interesting with "Dhamma Study Group" mailing list to find out about > Buddhist , I still a member of Local Buddhist's Mailing list, such as: > Mahasati, SamaggiJaya and others . > > I know DSG from someone ,who are member of one buddhits's mailing list. > > NB: I'm sorry , if my english so bad , because i'm not expert in english. > > Mettacittena, > S.L 26280 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:25pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi James and Howard, I am behind in my 'messages to reply to' but, judging from your latest posts, I may have said too much already. Since the following reply is ready to go, I may as well post it. James, Thanks for those cold hard facts, as you see them. You say the 'Noble Eightfold Path' is one. Is this just some warm and fuzzy description of just another religion? For example, is Right Speech the same sort of thing the local church minister would encourage from his parishioners? Or, is it a definite, concrete thing with finite, inherent characteristics? How is the meditation you refer to worth bothering with? There are so many weird and wonderful stories of yogis and what they are supposed to have done -- I'm really not interested in any of that. Show me in concrete terms what formal meditation is and how it fundamentally changes anything that is real. ------------------ J: > Actually, I would like for you to tell me the cold hard facts as to why meditation isn't necessary for fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths. ---------------- I have to prove a negative? I would rather say that there is dukkha, the cause of dukkha, the end of dukkha and the path leading to the end of dukkha. Each of these four truths is a cold hard fact; an absolute reality (paramattha dhamma). None of them is a concept. Someone with no knowledge of the Dhamma might say, "Dukkha means suffering; Jesus offered salvation for all who suffered; he taught the same sort of thing." That would be fundamentally and demonstrably wrong. ------------------ J: > What is your reasoning? What are the facts and support from the Pali Canon? Are there posts in the archives or something that lay out the groundwork for this whole school of thought? --------------- I don't know where to begin. It would be better if you would point to a specific part of the teaching and say, "This is proof (or evidence), that formal meditation is the way taught by the Buddha." (There is a post like that from Victor that I haven't replied to yet.) -------------- J: > I have been reading the posts of Jon, Sarah, you and others that speak against meditation practice and I still don't get it. There isn't anything written that is specific enough to pin down as a reason, as I see it. -------------- That is a problem, I agree. These things have been comprehensively explained from many angles. By people who have studied deeply, that is; not so much by me, a raw, non-academically minded beginner. You still say they speak against meditation; I haven't seen them do that. (I may have said a few clumsy, disparaging words but who cares what I say? :-) ) If you haven't grasped their arguments by now -- regardless of whether you agree with them -- then why not? I hope you are not feigning naivete as a debating tactic :-) ? -------------- J: > Could you explain exactly what it is that you do that is supposed to end dukkha? -------------- I know you won't like my answer but I'd like to give it anyway: There is dukkha, its cause, its end and the path. Who mentioned anything about doing something? That sounds unnecessarily cryptic and smug but it's a hard question to answer. -------------- J: > In other words, how are you (or your life) different from anyone else who doesn't know the dhamma? What are you doing that is going to end the round of samsara for yourself (non-self)? --------------- Non-self is the crux of the matter. Do you believe in it? If there is no self, then what is there? If there is no self, then why worry, why bother? Worry and bother are symptoms of ignorance -- ignorance of there being just the four noble truths. If there were just dukkha, its cause, its end and the path, there would be no problem. But we know 'self' and so we think we have to do something. We don't have the option of not doing something while there is this 'self' who is doing the not-doing. First and foremost, let's understand the four noble truths. Kind regards, Ken H 26281 From: Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:05pm Subject: Vism. XIV 27 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 27. And these four kinds of discrimination can be placed in two categories: the plane of the trainer and the plane of the non-trainer. Herein, those of the chief disciples come into the category of the non-trainer' plane. Those of the Elder Aananda, the householder Citta, the layman Dhammika, the householder Upaali, the laywoman Khujjuttaraa, etc., come into the category of the trainer's plane. 26282 From: Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 27 Hi all, Here is the definition for trainer and non-trainer from Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": sekha: a 'noble learner', a disciple in higher training, i.e. one who pursues the 3 kinds of training (sikkhá, q.v.), is one of those 7 kinds of noble disciples who have reached one of the 4 supermundane paths or the 3 lower fruitions (s. ariya-puggala), while the one possessed of the 4th fruition, or Arahatta-phala, is called 'one beyond training' (asekha, lit. 'no more learner'). The worldling (puthujjana, q.v.) is called 'neither a noble learner, nor perfected in learning' (n'eva-sekha-násekha). Cf. Pug. 23-25. Larry 26283 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 8:06pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Victor, ----------- V: > I think James has given you a cogent explanation in accordance with the what the Buddha taught. Here I would like to refer to some passages from the Pali Canon, in which the Buddha exhorted bhikkhus to meditate. 371. Meditate, O monk! Do not be heedless. Let not your mind whirl on sensual pleasures. Heedless, do not swallow a red-hot iron ball, lest you cry when burning, "O this is painful!" --------------- As usual, without expert help, I don't know who this sutta was addressed to. Remember, some monks were jhana meditators, some were not. The majority of arahants were not. At least, they weren't prior to attaining enlightenment. That is why they said "We have attained by wisdom alone." If he was talking to jhana meditators, he may have been saying "suppress the hindrances;" that is, after all, what they do. But, jhana was practised before the Buddha's sasana; it, in itself, is not the Middle Way. So the Buddha's conventional-sounding instructions to jhana meditators must be understood in terms of the Middle Way. Just as the Buddha advised meditators to suppress the hindrances, he also advised merchants to be fair and honest; housewives to respect their parents-in-law; just about every category of human being was advised in what, superficially, sounded like the same sensible advice anyone might have given. However, the conventional- sounding advice must always be understood in terms of satipatthana -- something only a Buddha can teach. -------------- V: > 372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are found both meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana. ------------------ Again, I don't know who this sutta was addressed to. Judging from that extract it could have applied to anyone -- even to me. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight. (OK, so I'll get insight and then I can have meditative concentration.) and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. (!!!) Is this a catch 22? No, it is not a catch 22 because the Buddha taught a Middle Way, a way beyond the limits of logic. In the absolute reality that the Buddha discovered and taught, there are only the fleeting mental and physical phenomena of this present moment. If one of those phenomena is insight (right understanding, samma-ditthi, panna), then another of those phenomena will be right concentration (samma-samadhi). Right understanding must exist before there can be right concentration: Even though they arise together, right understanding comes first. This is explained in the laws of conditionality (Paccaya). But those laws also explain how, by another condition, right understanding depends on the co-arising of right concentration. In this way, they can only arise together, in the same moment of consciousness. ----------------- V: > Here is another passage: "Thus, monk, I have taught about the monk engrossed in mastery over learning, about one engrossed in teaching, about one engrossed in recitation, about one engrossed in pondering, and about one who lives by the Dhamma. Whatever should be done by a compassionate teacher who, out of compassion, seeks the welfare of his disciples, that I have done for you. These are the roots of trees, O monk, these are empty huts. Meditate, monk, do not be negligent lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you." ** --------------- Thanks, this looks like a good source for the steps needed for vipassana, namely: hear, discuss, memorise, consider and "live by" the Dhamma. (I assume that last one means practise satipathana.) Then he adds "These are the roots of trees, O monk, these are empty huts." Was he literally pointing to trees and huts? Or was he saying 'hearing, discussing, memorising, considering and practising satipathana, THESE ARE the roots of trees and empty huts'? The alternative translation you provide says, "Over there are the empty huts." Needless to say, I prefer "these are" but, without expert help, I am only guessing. For vipassana (the teaching of the Buddha), the prerequisite steps are hearing, discussing, remembering, considering, and practising the Dhamma. THESE ARE the Buddhist equivalents of the prerequisite steps for conventional wisdom (jhana) (e.g., dressing in rags, living alone in remote, deserted huts or at the roots of trees.) He may have been pointing to actual huts and trees; for an elite few, both vipassana and jhana were developed, either one at a time or, most rarely, both together. The rest of the quote was, "Meditate, monk, do not be negligent lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you." I don't know; could this, as you would say, refer to jhana or could it refer to vipassana (the momentary arising of right understanding and right concentration)? Or both? :-) It depends on who he was taking to. Kind regards, Ken H 26284 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sugiarto, apa kabar . Dear Sugiarto, Apa kabar. Welcome to this list. I am always very glad to see Indonesian members, because I lived in Jakarta before. Our moderators are now in Myanmar, but they are back next week and they will give you good tips for beginners on this list. Your English is fine, and we are looking forward if you have remarks and questions. Are you a member of a local Buddhist group? Someone of the very active Bogor group is a member of this list. Looking forward to your input, Nina. op 22-10-2003 09:24 schreef Sugiarto op sugiarto@o...: > Namo Buddhaya... > > Let's me introduces myself first, > My Name is Sugiarto Limawan , Male, 26th years Old, lived in Jakarta- > Indonesia. 26285 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 22, 2003 10:16pm Subject: Meditate oh bhikkhu , Dhammapada 371(Ken and Victor) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > ----------- > Victor: > I think James has given you a cogent explanation in > accordance with the what the Buddha taught. > > Here I would like to refer to some passages from the Pali > Canon, in which the Buddha exhorted bhikkhus to meditate. > > >> 371. Meditate, O monk! Do not be heedless. Let not your > mind whirl on sensual pleasures. Heedless, do not swallow > a red-hot iron ball, lest you cry when burning, "O this >> is painful!" > --------------- > >KEN: As usual, without expert help, I don't know who this > sutta was addressed to. Remember, some monks were jhana > meditators, some were not. The majority of arahants were > not. At least, they weren't prior to attaining > enlightenment. That is why they said "We have attained by > wisdom alone." > > . > > The rest of the quote was, "Meditate, monk, do not be > negligent lest you regret it later. This is our > instruction to you." I don't know; could this, as you > would say, refer to jhana or could it refer to vipassana > (the momentary arising of right understanding and right > concentration)? Or both? :-) It depends on who he was > taking to. > >______ Dear Ken and Victor, I have posted the commentary to this a few times over the last 3 years.When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to know that there are two types. The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." The Atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of meditative absorptions" And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the three characteristics'"endquote Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the actual characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote Note that some of the first type of jhaya/jhana (the 40 objects for samatha) require a seated position, especially anapanasati. But some of this type of can be developed, at least to some degree, in any position, anytime, such as meditation on death. The second type of jhaya/jhana is that leading out of samsara and that takes the aggregates, paramattha dhammas as object. It can be developed anytime, anyplace. RobertK 26286 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:08am Subject: Re: Meditate oh bhikkhu , Dhammapada 371(Ken and Victor) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Ken and Victor, > I have posted the commentary to this a few times over the last 3 > years.When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to > know that there are two types. > The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless." The > Atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of > meditative absorptions" > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics" > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506 > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments > (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on > one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or > Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the > three characteristics'"endquote > > > Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the > actual > characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to > the vipassana nanas and magga and phala. > THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter) says > "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of > ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the > mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being, > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider > the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of > the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the > pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that > the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the > causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the > cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote > > Note that some of the first type of jhaya/jhana (the 40 objects for > samatha) require a seated position, especially anapanasati. But some > of this type of can be developed, at least to some degree, in any > position, anytime, such as meditation on death. > The second type of jhaya/jhana is that leading out of samsara and > that takes the aggregates, paramattha dhammas as object. It can be > developed anytime, anyplace. > RobertK Robert K, ab•sorp•tion( b-sôrp sh n, -zôrp -) n. The act or process of absorbing or the condition of being absorbed. A state of mental concentration. Reflecting \Re*flect"ing\, a. Given to reflection or serious consideration. How can it be concluded that "meditative absorptions" might include simply `reflecting' on nama and rupa? They are two entirely different things. It appears that this sutta quote has been filtered through an interpretation by the commentaries and then that commentary has been further filtered through your interpretation…until the end result you present hardly resembles the original source. Metta, James 26287 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:33am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James and Howard, > > I am behind in my 'messages to reply to' but, judging > from your latest posts, I may have said too much already. > Since the following reply is ready to go, I may as well > post it. > > James, > > Thanks for those cold hard facts, as you see them. You > say the 'Noble Eightfold Path' is one. Is this just some > warm and fuzzy description of just another religion? For > example, is Right Speech the same sort of thing the local > church minister would encourage from his parishioners? > Or, is it a definite, concrete thing with finite, > inherent characteristics? > Hi Ken, Okay, now I think I have a better understanding of your position (and the position of others). I probably understand you better because you are more frank (no I wasn't faking not understanding). This is how I see it (also being frank): You don't consider the Eightfold Path really all that special. Your thinking is like, "Ho hum, who cares?" After all, it isn't really that different from the moral codes of other religions so it must have been directed by the Buddha to those of `wee brains'. Now, when you look at the Abhidhamma and its declaration that all namas/rupas have the characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self, Wow! That is something you can really sink your teeth into! That must be what the Buddha meant for those of `big brains'. Now, since everything has no-self, there isn't anyone or anything that can DO anything. Furthermore, since meditation is definitely doing something, that isn't a practice done by those Buddhists with the `big brains'; that is a practice only performed by those Buddhists with the `wee brains'… who don't understand that there is no-self to meditate anyway. Ken, with this kind of mind-set there is nothing I can say to you. Everything I say will be suspect because I am one of those Buddhists with a `wee brain'. But to those of you who are reading this post who don't have such a mind-set I say: Non-self is an ultimate truth that shouldn't be applied to conventional reality. Just because we ultimately have no self that doesn't mean we don't have to go to work, buy groceries, clean our bodies, and clean our minds (meditate). All of those things must still be done. When there is the final unbinding (parinibbana), then those things can be abandoned. Metta, James 26288 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:05am Subject: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" Hi All, Today there was a Halloween celebration at my school. The classes were shortened and all of the students gathered outside of the school to listen to music and participate in different activities. It is designed to be a fun-filled day for all. It appeared to me that all of the students were enjoying themselves and having a good time; but something happened that somewhat darkened the festivities for me. There was a microphone that one of the Arabic teachers took out into the crowd as a certain song began. One of the senior boys took the microphone and started to sing along with this particular song, to a cheering audience of children. This boy even got on the shoulders of another boy and was singing to the audience with his arms flailing in the air to the beat. All of the children were smiling and singing along to the song, so I could see that they all knew it and that it must be very popular. It had a rather simple rhyme scheme and I could hear the word "Israel" repeated several times throughout the song. I asked one of the Arabic teachers nearby what the boy was singing and she told me, "I hate Israel". I just couldn't believe it! I saw the Principal and asked him if he knew what this song meant; he replied that he didn't know. When I told him the meaning of the song he rolled his eyes and walked away from me like he didn't want to hear. Earlier in the festivities the Principal had stopped a song, in English, because it contained bad language; but this time he didn't do anything. The crowd was whipped up into a frenzy of hating Israel and the Principal just decided to dance along with all of the students. Now, I might be missing something, but I see nothing to dance about and celebrate when it comes to hate. It made me sick to my stomach to see such a display. Obviously, all of the Arabic teachers thought that this song was perfectly acceptable for children to sing and the American principal didn't think anything of it. When is this hating of Israel going to stop in the Middle East? Is it good to teach children to hate anybody? I am saddened and disgusted by what I saw today, and I really don't know who to blame. The Israel/Middle East situation is so gnarled and confusing that I don't know what to think about it: I don't have an opinion, really. But I do know, no matter what, hate is never an appropriate response. Metta, James 26289 From: teoh chee keam Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:51am Subject: Nibbana A Nama? Hi Ken, Howard & all, Let's not be passive. Whoever sow a good seed cultivate a good harvest. I, myself a meditator never discourage anyone not to meditate or persuade anyone to do so, against his freewill. So as not to develop akusala kamma due to the undesireable action even we have good intention towards the deliverance of other puthujjana. If one understand the Dhamma well, one will meditate without being forced to do so, neither setting a goal nor expecting the state of achievement. Because only through meditation, one can investigate the Dhamma as invited by the Buddha (ehipassiko), not to follow a blind faith as emphasized in the Kalama Sutta & reach the final destination (Nibbana). Its up to us to decide & design our future. Our inclination or declination is due to our understanding of the Dhamma, especially the Noble Eight Fold Path. metta, Vijita Teoh 26290 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hi Victor, Jhana does not eradicate attachment to sensepleasures, it is only temporary peace. Thus, not the highest peace. The monk is not all the time in jhana, he emerges, to take care of his daily routine. The latent tendencies that are not eradicated condiiton the arising of attachment, aversion and delusion. These are the real disturbers of inner peace. We read in the Brahmajaalasutta (D, 1)about heretics who thought that entering the first jhana and following jhanas was the highest nibbana. (B.B. transl p. 86). They believed in a self doing so. Also before the Buddha's time jhana was developed. The Budha's teachers before his enlightenment, Alara and Uddaka, did so. The Buddha gave the development of jhana a deeper dimension: jhana should not be taken for self. Also jhanacitta has the three characteristics of dukkha, impermanence and non-self. Insight has to be developed in order to realize them. That is why he said in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Nines, 36, Musing, that the monk who enters the first jhana should realize: Five khandhas: The five khandhas should be understood as they really are, this leads to the end of dukkha. A gimcrack, a rather strong expression. It is not my interpretation, it is in the sutta. In many suttas the Buddha said, jhana alone is not enough. The right jhana is very difficult, before one realizes it one clings to my jhana or one clings to the peace of jhana, and then it is already the wrong jhana. The wrong jhana may manifest itself as the right one, no end to delusion. Also to Sariputta the Buddha said, jhana should not be taken for self, "I am developing jhana". You also refer to the text: here are the roots of the trees, meditate. We discussed the word meditate with Jim and Sarah before: Pali jhaayati: two meanings: on the meditation subjects of kasinas, etc. and on the three characteristics. It can also be translated as: contemplate. If one translates it as practise jhana it renders only one aspect. Jhaana, sskr dhyaana: to burn or to contemplate. Burning away of defilements and contemplating the meditation subjects or the three characteristics of dhammas. Nina. op 21-10-2003 21:27 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > Let's put aside the differences in our interpretations for now. I > believe that both of us would agree that when a noble > disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how > sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and > much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to > the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, > apart from unwholesome states, then he is no longer attracted to > sensual pleasures. 26291 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:48am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi Ken, Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I understand that you have doubt about what the Buddha said in those quotes, and that is ok. I would still encourage you to meditate; however, I understand that to meditate or not is your choice that I can not force upon you. I believe that both of us have the goal to realize the cessation of dukkha. I believe that both of us can agree that to realize the cessation of dukkha, right concentration, along with other factors in the Noble Eightfold Path, is necessary. To develop right concentration, I would encourage you to meditate, in particular, to take up the practice of mindfulness of breathing, as the Buddha taught in Majjhima Nikaya 118 Anapanasati Sutta Mindfulness of Breathing http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html If you think that the mindfulness of breathing is the least appropriate for you, you might find the practice of brahmavihara more suitable to you: Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63 Sankhitta Sutta In Brief http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html I hope you find these discourses helpful for your meditation practice in developing right concentration. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, 26292 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:27am Subject: Re: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi James, Thanks for the reminder, going to groceries, also that is conditioned. Reminds me of the satipatthanasutta: when walking standing, etc. Only elements, but we forget, we are indeed slow wits. It is still, I am going to the groceries. We have to lead our normal daily life, but some understanding can be developed while going along. Why are we going? So many conditions are involved. Why do we live? Because there is still ignorance and clinging. Nina. op 23-10-2003 11:33 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > But to those of you who are reading this post who > don't have such a mind-set I say: Non-self is an ultimate truth that > shouldn't be applied to conventional reality. Just because we > ultimately have no self that doesn't mean we don't have to go to > work, buy groceries, clean our bodies, and clean our minds > (meditate). All of those things must still be done. When there is > the final unbinding (parinibbana), then those things can be abandoned. 26293 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hi Nina, Thank you for your reply. Let's go back the point where our exchange on this thread started: we have different interpretations about the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" from the passage "Mahanama, there is still a state unabandoned by you internally, owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade your mind and remain; for were that state already abandoned by you internally you would not be living the home life, you would not be enjoying sensual pleasures. It is because that state is unabandoned by you internally that you are living the home life and enjoying sensual pleasures. "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures. * I suggested that we put aside the differences in our interpretations for now. Given what the Buddha said in the passage above, I would suggest that let's reach an accord in understanding that when a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasures. Peace, Victor * Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi, trans., _The Middle Length Discourses fo the Buddha: a new translation of the Majjhima Nikaya_, p. 186-7. 26294 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 1:50pm Subject: Re: Meditate oh bhikkhu , Dhammapada 371(Ken and Victor) Hi Robert, Thank you for this post. Although you made a few references to the commentary, I don't see how your ideas can be inferred from what the Buddha taught. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: [snip] > Dear Ken and Victor, [snip] 26295 From: Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 11:36am Subject: Femininity and Masculinity Faculties Hi all - A couple items to be found in Abhidhamma, femininity and masculinity, are among the things that some "modern folks" (like me ;-) tend to look askance at. In this regard, for any folks who find these notions questionable, I think the following CNN article might be of interest: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/20/sexuality.brain.reut/index.html My god! Soon they'll be finding a life faculty (jivitindriya) also!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26296 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" Hi James and all, The situation in the Middle East, particularly the relation between Israelis and Palestinian people, and the situation in Iraq, is in a state of misery. Hatred breeds more hatred, and violence, state or otherwise, begets more violence. I believe that situation will improve if more people, from political and religious leaders to ordinary citizens, come to this realization as expressed in the following verse from Dhammapada: 5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp1/01.html This is a message that you can bring to your students. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi All, [snip] 26297 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:45pm Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" Friend James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Today there was a Halloween celebration at my school. The classes > were shortened and all of the students gathered outside of the school > to listen to music and participate in different activities. It is > designed to be a fun-filled day for all. It appeared to me that all > of the students were enjoying themselves and having a good time; but > something happened that somewhat darkened the festivities for me. > > There was a microphone that one of the Arabic teachers took out into > the crowd as a certain song began. One of the senior boys took the > microphone and started to sing along with this particular song, to a > cheering audience of children. This boy even got on the shoulders of > another boy and was singing to the audience with his arms flailing in > the air to the beat. All of the children were smiling and singing > along to the song, so I could see that they all knew it and that it > must be very popular. It had a rather simple rhyme scheme and I > could hear the word "Israel" repeated several times throughout the > song. I asked one of the Arabic teachers nearby what the boy was > singing and she told me, "I hate Israel". I just couldn't believe it! > > I saw the Principal and asked him if he knew what this song meant; he > replied that he didn't know. When I told him the meaning of the song > he rolled his eyes and walked away from me like he didn't want to > hear. Earlier in the festivities the Principal had stopped a song, in > English, because it contained bad language; but this time he didn't > do anything. The crowd was whipped up into a frenzy of hating Israel > and the Principal just decided to dance along with all of the > students. Now, I might be missing something, but I see nothing to > dance about and celebrate when it comes to hate. It made me sick to > my stomach to see such a display. > > Obviously, all of the Arabic teachers thought that this song was > perfectly acceptable for children to sing and the American principal > didn't think anything of it. When is this hating of Israel going to > stop in the Middle East? Is it good to teach children to hate > anybody? I am saddened and disgusted by what I saw today, and I > really don't know who to blame. The Israel/Middle East situation is > so gnarled and confusing that I don't know what to think about it: I > don't have an opinion, really. But I do know, no matter what, hate > is never an appropriate response. Twenty five years ago, I was living in Canada and my girlfriend was Egyptian. At one time, a friend of the family was visiting from Cairo. The friend was charming and intelligent (multiple degrees). She was an editor for the Al-Haram, a popular Arabic newspaper. While the friend was visiting, we went as a group to see a movie, "Chariots of Fire". As we returned home from the movie, I commented that it was an excellent film (I think it won the Oscar for best film that year). The visitor from Cairo sneered, "Jewish propoganda!" I then realized that the protagonist (an underprividged runner trying to make it to the Olympics) was Jewish. I realized that, in spite of her "intellgience", she did not have much "wisdom". She was very much a creature of her accumulaitons. Consider the Buddha immediately after His enlightenment. When He surveyed the world, I am sure that He understood the magnitude of the task in front of Him (even worse than the current Middle East situation). The Mahmabrahma reminded him that there were beings with less dust in their eyes and the Buddha went forth to teach the Dhamma. James, perhaps you can reflect on what you have seen as indicative of how deep accumulations are; rather than reflect with dosa, this reflection might be able to galvanize your own commitment to move against the stream of your own accumulations to deepen your own practice. Metta, Rob M :-) 26298 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:45pm Subject: Re: Nibbana A Nama? Hi Vijita Teoh, You wrote: --------------- Let's not be passive. Whoever sow a good seed cultivate a good harvest. I, myself a meditator never discourage anyone not to meditate or persuade anyone to do so, against his freewill. --------------- Agreed. Even when we are trying to discuss Dhamma, we can fall into the trap of making accusions and attributing blame. But unwholesome speech only makes matters worse; if we think someone has wrong understanding then there is all the more reason for right speech. ----------------- VT: > So as not to develop akusala kamma due to the undesireable action even we have good intention towards the deliverance of other puthujjana. If one understand the Dhamma well, one will meditate without being forced to do so, neither setting a goal nor expecting the state of achievement. ----------------- Yes, that would be one result of right understanding. ----------------- VT: > Because only through meditation, one can investigate the Dhamma as invited by the Buddha (ehipassiko), not to follow a blind faith as emphasized in the Kalama Sutta & reach the final destination (Nibbana). ------------------ Actually, the only meditation I am interested in is the momentary, conditioned arising of wholesome consciousness (kusala-citta), accompanied by the mental factor, right understanding (panna). This requires a lot of wholesome conditions but, as I understand it, not necessarily any 'formal' meditation. ------------------ V: > Its up to us to decide & design our future. Our inclination or declination is due to our understanding of the Dhamma, especially the Noble Eight Fold Path. ---------------- Agreed. Thank you. Kind regards, Ken H 26299 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:49pm Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) Hi James, We seem to be understanding each other a little better - - except in some areas such as 'comparative brain sizes:' ----------- J: > Now, when you look at the Abhidhamma That must be what the Buddha meant for those of `big brains'. Furthermore, since meditation is definitely doing something, that isn't a practice done by those Buddhists with the `big brains'; that is a practice only performed by those Buddhists with the `wee brains' ------------- You have missed the point about brain sizes as it has been made here on dsg. As I understand the explanations, Abhidhamma is required for the slow witted. Only the quick witted can go straight on to the Suttanta. That doesn't relate to any difference between you and me. As I understand the point, we are both 'slow witted.' The fact that we appreciate the importance of the suttas, must mean that we are not entirely slow witted. However, we are not so quick as to hear them once and attain enlightenment. In fact, we continually misunderstand them. And we needn't think that meditation will fix that. Concentration with wrong understanding only produces concentrated wrong understanding. We have to face the fact that, as slow-witted types, we need the painstakingly precise language of the Abhidhamma to explain the often imprecise (conventional), language of the suttas. Kind regards, Ken H 26300 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:54pm Subject: Re: Meditate oh bhikkhu , Dhammapada 371(Ken and Victor) Hi Robert, Thank you for injecting some facts into the discussion. Keep posting that quote and, in another three years, I might remember it. :-) As I have just mentioned to James, I need a lot of Abhidhamma; Even what you have written here in straightforward language, was not, at first, straightforward enough for me: RK: > "The second type of jhaya/jhana is that leading out of samsara and that takes the aggregates, paramattha dhammas as object. It can be developed anytime, anyplace." That temporarily led me to the interpretation that there was a living being who could develop jhaya and that there really were such things as places and times. It's crazy I know but, for my slow wits, every little thing has to be spelt out in painful detail. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 26301 From: Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" Hi, Rob & James - I was so impressed by your letter, James, expressing your heartfelt abhorrence of anger and hatred, and, Rob - what a wonderful, compassionate, and useful reply. You both impress me so much; you take a lead in being among the many here who make me proud to be a subscriber to DSG. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/23/03 9:47:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Friend James, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > >Today there was a Halloween celebration at my school. The classes > >were shortened and all of the students gathered outside of the > school > >to listen to music and participate in different activities. It is > >designed to be a fun-filled day for all. It appeared to me that > all > >of the students were enjoying themselves and having a good time; > but > >something happened that somewhat darkened the festivities for me. > > > >There was a microphone that one of the Arabic teachers took out > into > >the crowd as a certain song began. One of the senior boys took > the > >microphone and started to sing along with this particular song, to > a > >cheering audience of children. This boy even got on the shoulders > of > >another boy and was singing to the audience with his arms flailing > in > >the air to the beat. All of the children were smiling and singing > >along to the song, so I could see that they all knew it and that > it > >must be very popular. It had a rather simple rhyme scheme and I > >could hear the word "Israel" repeated several times throughout the > >song. I asked one of the Arabic teachers nearby what the boy was > >singing and she told me, "I hate Israel". I just couldn't believe > it! > > > >I saw the Principal and asked him if he knew what this song meant; > he > >replied that he didn't know. When I told him the meaning of the > song > >he rolled his eyes and walked away from me like he didn't want to > >hear. Earlier in the festivities the Principal had stopped a song, > in > >English, because it contained bad language; but this time he > didn't > >do anything. The crowd was whipped up into a frenzy of hating > Israel > >and the Principal just decided to dance along with all of the > >students. Now, I might be missing something, but I see nothing to > >dance about and celebrate when it comes to hate. It made me sick > to > >my stomach to see such a display. > > > >Obviously, all of the Arabic teachers thought that this song was > >perfectly acceptable for children to sing and the American > principal > >didn't think anything of it. When is this hating of Israel going > to > >stop in the Middle East? Is it good to teach children to hate > >anybody? I am saddened and disgusted by what I saw today, and I > >really don't know who to blame. The Israel/Middle East situation > is > >so gnarled and confusing that I don't know what to think about it: > I > >don't have an opinion, really. But I do know, no matter what, > hate > >is never an appropriate response. > > > Twenty five years ago, I was living in Canada and my girlfriend was > Egyptian. At one time, a friend of the family was visiting from > Cairo. The friend was charming and intelligent (multiple degrees). > She was an editor for the Al-Haram, a popular Arabic newspaper. > While the friend was visiting, we went as a group to see a > movie, "Chariots of Fire". As we returned home from the movie, I > commented that it was an excellent film (I think it won the Oscar > for best film that year). The visitor from Cairo sneered, "Jewish > propoganda!" I then realized that the protagonist (an underprividged > runner trying to make it to the Olympics) was Jewish. I realized > that, in spite of her "intellgience", she did not have > much "wisdom". She was very much a creature of her accumulaitons. > > Consider the Buddha immediately after His enlightenment. When He > surveyed the world, I am sure that He understood the magnitude of > the task in front of Him (even worse than the current Middle East > situation). The Mahmabrahma reminded him that there were beings with > less dust in their eyes and the Buddha went forth to teach the > Dhamma. > > James, perhaps you can reflect on what you have seen as indicative > of how deep accumulations are; rather than reflect with dosa, this > reflection might be able to galvanize your own commitment to move > against the stream of your own accumulations to deepen your own > practice. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26302 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:10am Subject: Re: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Friend James, > Twenty five years ago, I was living in Canada and my girlfriend was > Egyptian. At one time, a friend of the family was visiting from > Cairo. The friend was charming and intelligent (multiple degrees). > She was an editor for the Al-Haram, a popular Arabic newspaper. > While the friend was visiting, we went as a group to see a > movie, "Chariots of Fire". As we returned home from the movie, I > commented that it was an excellent film (I think it won the Oscar > for best film that year). The visitor from Cairo sneered, "Jewish > propoganda!" I then realized that the protagonist (an underprividged > runner trying to make it to the Olympics) was Jewish. I realized > that, in spite of her "intellgience", she did not have > much "wisdom". She was very much a creature of her accumulaitons. > > Consider the Buddha immediately after His enlightenment. When He > surveyed the world, I am sure that He understood the magnitude of > the task in front of Him (even worse than the current Middle East > situation). The Mahmabrahma reminded him that there were beings with > less dust in their eyes and the Buddha went forth to teach the > Dhamma. > > James, perhaps you can reflect on what you have seen as indicative > of how deep accumulations are; rather than reflect with dosa, this > reflection might be able to galvanize your own commitment to move > against the stream of your own accumulations to deepen your own > practice. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Hi Rob (and Victor), I am not so sure that what I witnessed was the manifestation of accumulations; I saw it as the manifestation of conditioning. These children weren't born to hate Israel, they have been taught this horrible thinking. I am not sure what `dosa' means but I am going to assume from the context that it isn't good…maybe it means `aversion'? My reaction to what I saw was quick and immediate, and not long lasting. At first I felt strong aversion, which I think was a natural reaction. These are students in my school and I feel a sense of responsibility for them. When I see them dancing and joyfully singing about hating Israel, I feel like I am failing them…and maybe I am…maybe we all are. My next reaction after the aversion was a resolve to do something about this hate. As Victor suggests, it is my responsibility to try to teach my students that hate isn't appropriate. We have been discussing inequality among men and women around the world (another big problem in the Middle East) in my classes, now I am going to begin to insert discussions about anti- semitism whenever possible. I won't be able to change all of Egypt, or even all of my students, but I hope to make some small difference toward developing good wherever I can; perhaps in this way I can, as you suggest, 'deepen' my practice. Metta, James 26303 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob & James - > > I was so impressed by your letter, James, expressing your heartfelt > abhorrence of anger and hatred, and, Rob - what a wonderful, compassionate, and > useful reply. You both impress me so much; you take a lead in being among the > many here who make me proud to be a subscriber to DSG. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Thank you for the kind words, but if anyone deserves them most I think it would be you. Metta, James 26304 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:23am Subject: Nibbana a Nama? (Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion [Howard]) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James, > > We seem to be understanding each other a little better - > - except in some areas such as 'comparative brain sizes:' > ----------- > J: > Now, when you look at the Abhidhamma That > must be what the Buddha meant for those of `big brains'. > Furthermore, since meditation is definitely doing > something, that isn't a practice done by those Buddhists > with the `big brains'; that is a practice only performed > by those Buddhists with the `wee brains' > ------------- > > You have missed the point about brain sizes as it has > been made here on dsg. As I understand the explanations, > Abhidhamma is required for the slow witted. Only the > quick witted can go straight on to the Suttanta. That > doesn't relate to any difference between you and me. As > I understand the point, we are both 'slow witted.' Hi Ken, I was being kinda tongue-in-cheek with the `brain size' comparison in order to make a point. Now I am confused again about the `official' position. You state that the Abhidhamma is for the slow witted and the suttas are for the quick witted. This runs contrary to many posts I have read here. I have read Nina, Sarah, Jon, and others write about how only those with the right accumulations and the right level of `Panna' (wisdom) will be attracted to the Abhidhamma, and I was pretty sure that they weren't speaking in the negative. Even the title "Abhidhamma" means "Higher Dhamma"; `Higher' usually means above or greater. How does this correlate with what you are saying? Metta, James 26305 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:21am Subject: Compassion Hi All, Modern society focuses on the external, so it is natural to feel compassion toward one who is physically sick or destitute. One who understands the Dhamma focuses on the internal; they feel compassion toward all beings as all beings are bound to samsara and subject to the first noble truth (dukkha). The Visuddhimagga suggests that one can arouse compassion toward a person, even though they may be happy. This is done by imagining a criminal being led to execution. As this criminal is paraded through the streets, people feel sorry for the criminal and offer him good food as he passes by. The criminal may be momentarily happy enjoying the good food, but the people in the street feel compassion as they know his fate. We can consider that, with each day passing, we are all one day closer to our death. Though they may be momentarily happy, evil-doers are destined for an unfortunate rebirth and deserve our compassion. Consider the poor children of the Middle East. Each day, they are being taught to hate. As Buddhists, we know what fate lies in store for those who hate. These children are wasting this precious human existence. Though they may be momentarily happy, they are deserving of our compassion. Compassion has as its near enemy "grief, based on the homelife". This means dosa (aversion) based on worldly events. The nature of compassion is that it is accompanied by a pleasant or neutral feeling, never an unpleasant feeling. Karuna, Rob M :-) 26306 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:54am Subject: Re: Femininity and Masculinity Faculties Dear Howard How are you? Thank you for the CNN link with the article. So femininity and masculinity are pre-hormonal workings of the genes in embryonic brain! With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi all - A couple items to be found in Abhidhamma, femininity and masculinity, are among the things that some "modern folks" (like me ;-) tend to look askance at. In this regard, for any folks who find these notions questionable, I think the following CNN article might be of interest: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/20/sexuality.brain.reut/index.html My god! Soon they'll be finding a life faculty (jivitindriya) also!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26307 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:55am Subject: Re: Femininity and Masculinity Faculties Dear Howard How are you? Thank you for the CNN link with the article. So femininity and masculinity are pre-hormonal workings of the genes in embryonic brain! With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi all - A couple items to be found in Abhidhamma, femininity and masculinity, are among the things that some "modern folks" (like me ;-) tend to look askance at. In this regard, for any folks who find these notions questionable, I think the following CNN article might be of interest: http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/20/sexuality.brain.reut/index.html My god! Soon they'll be finding a life faculty (jivitindriya) also!! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26308 From: Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion Hi, Rob - In a message dated 10/24/03 8:22:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi All, > > Modern society focuses on the external, so it is natural to feel > compassion toward one who is physically sick or destitute. One who > understands the Dhamma focuses on the internal; they feel compassion > toward all beings as all beings are bound to samsara and subject to > the first noble truth (dukkha). > > The Visuddhimagga suggests that one can arouse compassion toward a > person, even though they may be happy. This is done by imagining a > criminal being led to execution. As this criminal is paraded through > the streets, people feel sorry for the criminal and offer him good > food as he passes by. The criminal may be momentarily happy enjoying > the good food, but the people in the street feel compassion as they > know his fate. We can consider that, with each day passing, we are > all one day closer to our death. Though they may be momentarily > happy, evil-doers are destined for an unfortunate rebirth and > deserve our compassion. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this could be useful imagining, so long as one doesn't include in that imagined scenario the recollection of those onlookers not offering succor, but jeering the condemned and cheering at their being taken off for destruction, something readily seen throughout the world including, unfortunately, the good old U.S. of A. in some news editorials and in some church and synagogue and mosque sermons. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Consider the poor children of the Middle East. Each day, they are > being taught to hate. As Buddhists, we know what fate lies in store > for those who hate. These children are wasting this precious human > existence. Though they may be momentarily happy, they are deserving > of our compassion. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. Indeed. The felt hatred is, itself, already a form of extreme suffering,and it leads to further terrible consequences. Unfortunately, when and if hatred leads to the point that parents are willing to let their children blow themselves up "for the cause" and take other lives with them, many, many of which are innocent lives as regards the current situation, there is enormous need for good people to react with compassion, and without hate, though also simultaneously to actively take all appropriate precautions to protect the innocent. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Compassion has as its near enemy "grief, based on the homelife". > This means dosa (aversion) based on worldly events. The nature of > compassion is that it is accompanied by a pleasant or neutral > feeling, never an unpleasant feeling. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Might that be "far enemy"? My impression was that the near enemy of compassion is pity. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Karuna, > Rob M :-) > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26309 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:03am Subject: Yahoo Is Playing Up! Re: Femininity and masculinity Thread Dear Dhamma friends I just replied to Howard's thread Femininity and masculinity thread. Even though I posted my reply only once, my reply post appeared twice! I also got Page Expire message. After refreshing the page as instructed, I saw my reply post appearing twice. With regards, Suan 26310 From: Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:10am Subject: Solar Flares (Re: [dsg] Yahoo Is Playing Up! ) Hi, Suan - In a message dated 10/24/03 9:04:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > Dear Dhamma friends > > I just replied to Howard's thread Femininity and masculinity thread. > > Even though I posted my reply only once, my reply post appeared twice! > > I also got Page Expire message. After refreshing the page as > instructed, I saw my reply post appearing twice. > > With regards, > > Suan > =========================== I just read that there are some solar flares that may affect cell-phone and other communications today (Friday). Perhaps this includes an impact on the internet. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26311 From: monomuni Date: Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:28pm Subject: Thornless ... Friends: Delight in Seclusion: For one delighting in seclusion, delight in society is a thorn. For one devoted to reflection on disgust, the sign of beauty is a thorn. For one controlling the senses, the seeing of shows is a thorn. For one living the Noble Life, association with women is a thorn. For the 1st meditative Jhana absorption, Noise is a thorn. For the 2nd meditative Jhana absorption, Thought is a thorn. For the 3rd meditative Jhana absorption, Joy is a thorn. For the 4th meditative Jhana absorption, Breathing is a thorn. For the attainment of Cessation, Perception & Feeling is a thorn. Greed is a Thorn. Hate is a Thorn. Confusion is a Thorn. Be Thornless, Bhikkhus & Friends. Abide freed from Thorns. Thornless are the Arahats. Freed from Thorns are the Arahats. --oo0oo-- Source: Anguttara Nikaya V 135 Friendship is truly GREATEST ... For Gladdening of Good People !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Whosoever rejects the words of the noble, righteous Arahants, such a fool, because of his false views, brings forth on his head ruin and destruction, like the banana-tree which dies when it has borne fruit. Random Dhammapada Verse 164 26312 From: monomuni Date: Mon Oct 20, 2003 4:05am Subject: Exactly at that Moment! Friends: The Breath Meditator knows his exact moment of Death: An elder brother at Mihintale Monastery, here on Sri Lanka, once went, after having recited the Vinaya code on a full-moon night, to his hut followed by a number of bhikkhus. There, standing on the terrace path, looking at the moonlight, he considered his span of life & then asked the brothers: ‘In how many ways have you previously seen brothers attain complete quenching ?’ Some answered: ‘Previously we have seen brothers reach perfect extinction sitting cross-legged in their seats.’ Others answered: ‘Previously we have seen brothers be fully released by burning up without smoke nor ash, while sitting elevated in the air.’ The elder then answered: Then, I will show you complete liberation, while walking to & fro ! He then drew a line across the sand of the terrace path and said: ‘I will go to the other end & return. When I reach this line, exactly then & right there, will I achieve supreme Nibbana.’ So saying did he walk down & turned around. At the exact moment his foot touched the line, he realized absolute freedom ... Yeah! --oo0oo-- Source: The Path of Purification. The Classic Meditation Manual: VisuddhiMagga by Buddhaghosa. The 'Explainer' of the 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=771100 Friendship is truly GREATEST ... For Gladdening of Good People !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Whosoever in this world is overcome by this base craving, this clinging (to sense objects), his sorrows grow like Birana grass after rain. Random Dhammapada Verse 335 26313 From: monomuni Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:02am Subject: Queen Maya’s Dream! Friends: Queen Maya’s Dream of the White Elephant: The day Queen May conceived the Buddha, she had taken part in a 7 day festival. On the 7th day she rose quite early, bathed in perfumed water, adorned herself with best jewelry, enjoyed a delicious meal & gave great alms spending 400.000! Then she withdraw to her ornamented bedchamber, set her mind firmly on the 8 Uposatha vows & there on the royal couch she fell asleep & dreamt the following Dream: She experienced, that the four Guardian Deities lifted her up, bed & all & carried her to the Himalayas, where they sat her down on a plateau of red arsenic under a mighty Sal tree. Then their concubines came & took her to lake Anottata, bathed her gently, anointed her with divine perfume, dressed her in heavenly clothing & adorned her with celestial flowers. Then they took her to the nearby silver mountain with the golden cave. There they left her on a divine couch with her head facing East. The Boddhisatta appearing as a Magnificent & Majestic White Elephant, carrying a White Lotus in his trunk, then trumpeted triumphantly from the nearby golden mountain. Approaching from the North, he went respectfully around his mother's bed thrice. Then it appeared as though he entered his mother's womb through an opening on the right side. Thus did he take conception under the asterism of Asalha. The Buddha much later explained to Sariputta: There are four kinds of people: Those who enter, stay & leave the womb unaware of it. Those who enter the womb knowing it, but stay and leave unaware. Those who enter & stay in the womb knowing it, yet leave unaware. Those who enter, stay & leave the womb knowing it, fully aware of it! --oo0oo-- Source: Jataka Nidana. Friendship is truly GREATEST ... For Gladdening of Good People !!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ He who has passed beyong this quagmire, this difficult path, the ocean of life (samsara), and delusion, who has crossed and gone beyond, who is meditative, free from craving and doubts, who clinging to naught, has attained Nibbana, - him I call a Brahmana. Random Dhammapada Verse 414 26314 From: nordwest Date: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Diary: "I Hate Israel" Dear James, I lived 32 years, thefirst half of my life, In Austria / Europe. I've been several times to Israel and many other countries in Europe and lived there a short time with the people, not as a tourist. Europe is very different from the USA, because of it's ancient culture. America's ancient culture, the Natives, has been suppressed or even wiped out, but in Europe it's still all over the place intermingeling in thousand ways in everyday life. Preoccupations were created over hundreds of years and are passed on from partens to childs. Every cultural group had a war there with any other land in the world. In the medieval times in Austria and Germany there was a civil war that endured 30 years! The farmers were fighting against the landlords with primitve farmer's tools instead of weapons, we can still see this in European museums. First the Nordic people terrorized the seas, than the Roman Empire invaded Europe, than there were the Christian wars to convert the Middle East, than the Turkish invaded mid-Europe, in the Middle East the Egyptians and the others always gave Israelis a hrad time, and then the first and second world war not long ago, where Millions of Jewhish (Israelis) were slaughtered. And so in Europe if you talk to people, they are still aware that war could happen any time. Unlike the USA, the wars happend - similiar like 9/11 all on homeground. Many Europeans are very proud of former historic events, and considering what price each cultural group, each land, has payed over the last 2000 years, it's no wonder that some strange behaviors developed... and preoccupations, great many! Europeans are very sceptical towards other people in general, and especially towards other cultures, they'd rather stick to their kind. Too much great cultures had been torn apart by wars. People in central Europe are daily reminded in everydays life by ruins, old castles etc. that life is perishable, nothing lasts. Unfortunately they draw the wrong conclusions out of this, they get nearsighted and clng even more to life and to traditions and old stories about hate and ignorance. Gassho, Thomas buddhatrue wrote: Hi All, Today there was a Halloween celebration at my school. The classes were shortened and all of the students gathered outside of the school ... The Israel/Middle East situation is so gnarled and confusing that I don't know what to think about it: I don't have an opinion, really. But I do know, no matter what, hate is never an appropriate response. 26315 From: monomuni Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:34am Subject: Deepavali Day ! Friends; Today is Deepavali Day: An ancient Hindu festival of Light, Peace & Goodwill! May we all rejoice! --oo0oo-- When one with a mind of Goodwill, kindly understands the entire world, just above so below and all across, unlimited, vast, immense & everywhere: Just as a mother even with her own life protects her only child, so let one cultivate infinite sympathy towards all living beings... Thus the one who both day and night cultivates joyous harmlessness, sharing amity with all that breathes, such one finds enmity with none ... J 37 & S I 208 --oo0oo-- May all the infinite number of sentient beings, without even any single hidden exception, in all 31 forms of individual existence, residing in the 3 realms, of inconceivable number, extending in space infinitely in all 10 directions, enduring eternally through all past, present & future time, to an absolutely complete, infinite and endless degree, develop Goodwill and beam Friendship towards all Beings ... --oo0oo-- Friendliness (Metta) is the ninth perfection (parami) Come on now friends! This One is the ninth one to adopt, practice, develop, refine & perfect resolutely: As water cleans & cools both the evil & the good, refresh both the friend & enemy equally with Friendly Goodwill, then a Buddha's knowledge shall be yours! Jataka Nidana --oo0oo-- Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ If no wound there be in one's hand, one may carry poison in it. Poison does not affect one who has no wound. There is no ill for him who does no wrong. Random Dhammapada Verse 124 26316 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion Hi Howard, > > > > Compassion has as its near enemy "grief, based on the homelife". > > This means dosa (aversion) based on worldly events. The nature of > > compassion is that it is accompanied by a pleasant or neutral > > feeling, never an unpleasant feeling. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Might that be "far enemy"? My impression was that the near enemy of > compassion is pity. > ------------------------------------------------------- Each of the Four Sublime States has a "far enemy" and a "near enemy". The far enemy is easy to identify as it is an opposite. The "near enemy" is much more dangerous as it "masquerades as a friend" and can easily be mistaken for a sublime state. Metta ===== The far enemy of metta is ill will. The near enemy of metta is selfish affection, attachment. We should find out whether we want to be kind only to people who we particularly like, or whether we are kind to whomever we meet, because we are truly concerned for his welfare. From our own experience we can learn to see the difference between loving kindness and selfish affection. When there is loving kindness we do not think of our own enjoyment in someone's company. Karuna ====== The far enemy of karuna is cruelty. The near enemy of karuna is aversion (based on worldly events). When we see someone else who is in miserable circumstances, there tend to be moments of compassion when we wish to help to allay his suffering and there can also be moments of aversion about his suffering. Howard, if you would define "pity" as "aversion to another's suffering", then we are saying the same thing. Mudita ====== The far enemy of mudita is aversion (boredom). The near enemy of mudita is joy based on the home life, as both share in seeing success. When we say to someone else: "What a beautiful garden you have", there may be moments of sympathetic joy, sincere approval of his good fortune, but there may also be moments with attachment to pleasant objects. Upekkha ======= The far enemies of upekkha are greed and resentment. The near enemy of upekkha is ignorance. One may think that there is equanimity when, in fact, we are simply ignoring. The Buddha (AN V.161) gave the following five methods for removing annoyance with other people: 1. Loving-kindness can be maintained towards a person. 2. Compassion can be maintained towards a person. 3. Equanimity can be maintained towards a person. 4. The forgetting and ignoring of a person can be practiced. 5. Ownership of deeds in a person can be concentrated upon, "This good person is owner of his deeds, heir to his deeds, his deeds are the womb from which he is born, his deeds are his kin for whom he is responsible, his deeds are his refuge, he is heir to his deeds, be they good or bad." The commentary (Anguttara Atthakatha) notes that mudita is not mentioned because it is difficult to practice mudita with those who annoy us. It is interesting that the Buddha included point #4 as a point separate from equanimity (and might be interpreted as the near enemy of equanimity). It is also interesting that point #5 is in fact, the contemplation used to develop the state of equanimity. Metta, Rob M :-) 26317 From: bodhi342 Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear RobertK, > I think you make some good points. Thanks. I was hoping we would actually discuss contemporary attitudes of students, but it looks like you prefer to revert to the Teachers themselves: > Probably the best step to take would be if you write about any > other teachings or religions that you find equal to the teaching of > the Buddha in wisdom etc. To paraphrase: Who can even measure up to the wisdom of my own teacher? Presumably, the only 'acceptable' response would be: "No one else possibly could"! After all, how many devout followers of a Guide would be comfortable even considering the possibility of co-equals, let alone superiors; especially when dismissing all else as inferior, is so appealing to the ego? How many even on dsg? However, the same question can be asked by a Christian about Jesus; a Jew about Moses; a Muslim about Muhammad; a Taoist about Lao Tan; and so on. In fact, it could be asked about each of the teachers who we know of ever speaking about realizing the ultimate reality. We can easily guess the answers that almost all these students would insist on. Yet a survey of the whole scene reveals a problem - the answers are all different, depending on their particular biases. Therefore, who is qualified to make this judgment? The potential judge would need these minimum qualifications: 1. Absence of any bias; 2. Complete first-hand knowledge of the paths being compared by having traveled faithfully on each (more valid than intellectual assumptions based on centuries old hearsay in many cases); 3. Having realized the ultimate reality i.e. having reached the destination by those paths. Do you know of anyone so qualified to compare any two, let alone make a global judgment? I do not. Without offending anyone, we should also consider excluding the master teachers themselves. Why? Because it is exceedingly unlikely any of them has such qualifications. Most concentrated on their own path, a precious few considered the validity of other paths. What chance has the average spiritual explorer today of making a sound discriminant judgment? > Otherwise it is speculation that there are such teachers. Of course there has never been, nor is likely to be, anyone such as the Buddha...... or Jesus, or Lao Tan, etc. They are as unique, as the individual mountain guides expert in their own paths up to the ultimate view at the peak. Choose according to your taste, but no need to reject the existence or expertise of the others you have not chosen. The same applies to the path - easier, faster, safer, wiser - all illusory details along the way, irrelevant once you have reached the destination. It is the destination, NOT the path, NOR the guide, that is of the ultimate importance. If we focus on that, we may become much less attached to the path, the guide, or ourselves. They then become what they always were - practical necessities for the journey - nothing more, nothing less. We should clearly see defense of one's own path and guide, and denial of others, as based on attachment - something warned against by almost all the enduring teachings that we know of today. My only intention is to warn against the well-disguised hurdle of contemporary conceit along the path - any path, with any guide - always to the same destination. metta, dharam 26318 From: Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion Hi, Rob - In a message dated 10/24/03 10:50:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Karuna > ====== > The far enemy of karuna is cruelty. The near enemy of karuna is > aversion (based on worldly events). When we see someone else who is > in miserable circumstances, there tend to be moments of compassion > when we wish to help to allay his suffering and there can also be > moments of aversion about his suffering. Howard, if you would > define "pity" as "aversion to another's suffering", then we are > saying the same thing. > ========================= Yes, I understand pity as a kind of compassion defiled by both aversion and a sense of separation from the object of that pity (and even, at times, carrying an element of contempt) rather than loving identification. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26319 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:44am Subject: New Photos of Myanmar Hi All, We have all just arrived back from Myanmar. It was a great trip. Happy to be able to access dsg again. I have uploaded some photos from our trip. Hope you will all enjoy viewing them. Metta, Sukin. 26320 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:12am Subject: Tiika Vis. 23 Tiika Vis. 23. Relevant text Vis. 23 23. "Law" (dhamma) is briefly a term for a condition (paccaya). For since a condition necessitates (dahati) whatever it may be, makes it occur or allows it to happen, it is therefore called 'law' (dhamma). But in particular the five things, namely,(i) any cause that produces fruit, (ii) the noble path, (iii) what is spoken, (iv) what is profitable, and (v) what is unprofitable, should be understood as "law". When anyone reviews that law, any knowledge of his, falling within the category concerned with the law, is the "discrimination of law". 23. dhammotipi sa"nkhepato paccayasseta.m adhivacana.m. paccayo hi yasmaa ta.m ta.m dahati pavatteti vaa sampaapu.nitu.m vaa deti, pabhedato pana yo koci phalanibbattako hetu, ariyamaggo, bhaasita.m, tasmaa kusala.m, akusalanti ime pa~nca dhammaa dhammoti veditabbaa. ta.m dhamma.m paccavekkhantassa tasmi.m dhamme pabhedagata.m~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. Tiika 23. word: nibbattati: to produce text: ``yo koci phalanibbattako hetuu''ti etena saccahetudhammapaccayaakaaravaaresu aagataani samudayaadiini gahitaani, As to the expression, any cause that produces fruit, this means: it refers to the sections of truth, of cause, of dhamma, of the structure of conditions, and is taken as the origin of dukkha and so on. saccapaccayaakaaravaaresu maggo, pariyattivaare bhaasita.m, The Path refers the sections of truth and of the structure of conditions, what is spoken refers the section on competency in the scriptures, abhidhammabhaajaniiye kusalaakusalanti eva.m paa.liya.m vuttaana.m eva vasena pa~nca dhammaa veditabbaa. As to profitable and unprofitable, this refers to the Abhidhamma division, and thus, because of what is said in the texts, five things should be understood as dhamma. tattha maggo sampaapako, bhaasita.m ~naapako, itara.m nibbattakoti eva.m tividho hetu veditabbo. Here the Path is leading to (nibbana), what is spoken makes known, and as to the other dhamma, it produces, and thus cause should be known as threefold.... ****** English: As to the expression, any cause that produces fruit, this means: it refers to the sections of truth, of cause, of dhamma, of the structure of conditions, and is taken as the origin of dukkha and so on. The Path refers the sections of truth and of the structure of conditions, what is spoken refers the section on competency in the scriptures, as to profitable and unprofitable, this refers to the Abhidhamma division, and thus, because of what is said in the texts, five things should be understood as dhamma. Here the Path is leading to (nibbana), what is spoken makes known, and as to the other dhamma, it produces, and thus cause should be known as threefold.... ******* (second part of Tiika 23 untranslated). Nina. 26321 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:30pm Subject: slow-witted Hi all, I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: 1. If one is not slow-witted but calls and/or characterizes oneself as slow-witted, then that would be an utterance of a falsehood in one's part. 2. If one is really slow-witted, then sooner or later others who are not slow-witted will recognize it. There is no need for the slow- witted one to raise the banner. 3. If other is not slow-witted, then calling and/or characterizing other as slow-witted would be an utterance of falsehood. 4. If other is really slow-witted, then sooner or later others who are not slow-witted will recognize it. There is no need to for one to point it out. In general, I tend to see that it is not necessary in dhamma discussion to call/characterize oneself and others as slow- witted/stupid, whether one and others are really slow-witted/stupid or not. Peace, Victor 26322 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:19pm Subject: Re: slow-witted --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- > witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: Hi Victor, I think that when it comes to recognizing/understanding dhamma, the characterization of `slow-witted' doesn't equal `stupid', as you suggest. A person can have a very high IQ and still not understand the dhamma…we were discussing a completely different matter from comparative intelligence. Therefore, your reasoning doesn't apply. Metta, James 26323 From: Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] slow-witted Hi, Victor - I like both your logic and your humor! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/24/03 4:34:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi all, > > I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- > witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: > > 1. If one is not slow-witted but calls and/or characterizes oneself > as slow-witted, then that would be an utterance of a falsehood in > one's part. > > 2. If one is really slow-witted, then sooner or later others who are > not slow-witted will recognize it. There is no need for the slow- > witted one to raise the banner. > > 3. If other is not slow-witted, then calling and/or characterizing > other as slow-witted would be an utterance of falsehood. > > 4. If other is really slow-witted, then sooner or later others who > are not slow-witted will recognize it. There is no need to for one > to point it out. > > In general, I tend to see that it is not necessary in dhamma > discussion to call/characterize oneself and others as slow- > witted/stupid, whether one and others are really slow-witted/stupid > or not. > > Peace, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26324 From: robmoult Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 39-40 for comment Consciousness (Citta) & Mental Factors (Cetasikas) Slide Contents ============== Unwholesome Cittas (Between 15 and 22 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas - Unwholesome Cetasikas Wholesome Cittas (Between 31 and 38 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas - Wholesome Cetasikas Rootless Cittas (Between 7 and 12 cetasikas) - Ethically Variable Cetasikas Speaker Notes ============= One of the definitions of citta mentioned earlier was, "the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object. The accompanying mental factors are the cetasikas; the second type of ultimate reality. Cittas never arise without cetasikas and cetasikas depend upon citta to get access to an object. Cittas are pure awareness; it is the accompanying cetasikas that determine if the citta is unwholesome, wholesome or neutral. The Abhidhamma lists three classes of cetasikas: - Ethically variable: can be unwholesome, wholesome or neutral - Unwholesome: always bad - Wholesome: always good Ethically Variable Cetasikas Slide Contents ============== In all cittas: - Contact / Sense Impression - Feeling / Sensation - Perception / Recognition - Volition / Intention / Will - One-pointedness / Concentration - Life Faculty / Vitality - Attention / Advertence / Reflection In some cittas: - Initial Application / Applied Thinking - Sustained Application / Discursive Thinking - Determination / Decision - Energy / Effort / Exertion - Enthusiasm / Zest / Rapture / Interest - Desire / Zeal / Wish Speaker Notes ============= This is the list of the 13 mental factors which are unwholesome when they arise in unwholesome cittas, wholesome when they arise in unwholesome cittas and neutral when they arise in a neutral citta. In the seeing-consciousness citta, each cetasika has a task to perform as follows: - Contact connects with the visible object - Feeling experiences the "taste" of the visible object - Perception marks and remembers the visible object - Volition coordinates the tasks of the accompanying mental factors - One-pointedness focuses on the visible object - Life faculty sustains the citta and accompanying mental factors until they fall away - Attention drives the citta and the accompanying mental factors towards the visible object 26325 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Dear Victor, Now we are back where Jon left off. Meanwhile, I do not have B.B. translation, and could you give the location please? I read about Mahanama in Gradual Sayings. Nina. op 23-10-2003 22:34 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: Let's go back the point where our > exchange on this thread started: we have different interpretations > about the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" from the > passage > 26326 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hi Nina, Here is the link to another translation of MN.14 Cuuladukkhakkhandha Sutta: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima1/014-culadukkhakkhanda-sutta-e1.htm I also read about Mahanama in Anguttara Nikaya. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-013.html The Buddha's instruction to Mahanama would be very helpful to one's practice. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Victor, [snip] 26327 From: nordwest Date: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: slow-witted I would like to mention, that for me Victor posting was a very important reminder, that even "social humbleness" can be an evil deed, if it is not based on reality, but a mere lie. At least, this was how I understood it. Gassho, Thomas buddhatrue wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- > witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: Hi Victor, I think that when it comes to recognizing/understanding dhamma, the characterization of `slow-witted' doesn't equal `stupid', as you suggest. A person can have a very high IQ and still not understand the dhamma…we were discussing a completely different matter from comparative intelligence. Therefore, your reasoning doesn't apply. Metta, James 26328 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Femininity and Masculinity Faculties Dear Howard, I did not read the article, but Suan gave a summary. I have a few remarks. op 24-10-2003 14:55 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > Thank you for the CNN link with the article. > > So femininity and masculinity are pre-hormonal workings of the genes > in embryonic brain! N: the embryo at the first moment of life does not have brains as far as I know, but I do not know about medical science. Besides, I am not inclined to emphasize the notion of brain so much, as is mostly done by Western scientists. The Abhidhamma teaches that at the first moment of life of a human there arise three groups of ten rupas (dasakas): one with the heartbase, one with bodysense and one with sex. But these are infinitesimally tiny. The Abhidhamma does not have science as its goal. The goal is knowing dhammas as they are. We may cling to our sex, but in fact it is only a rupa. This rupa conditions our posture, way of walking, interests, it has a great influence on our life. It is beneficial to know that there are conditioning factors for everything in action, speech and thought. Nina. 26329 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] slow-witted Dear Victor, I join in with Howard ;-)) But now more seriously. As you can read in the suttas, some people at the Buddha's time could attain immediately, after a few words (Assaji, Sariputta). Some needed to hear more, some listened but did not attain. Now we are further away from the teachings, and the teachings decline. I think of the "Peg", quoted by Rob K: Samyutta Nikaya IX (20)7 p708 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation <...In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works -- the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples -- are recited. ... In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- will come about. > We are in the cycle of birth and death because of ignorance. Ignorance of dukkha and the other three noble Truths. We know that it may take aeons before ignorance is eradicated. When someone says that he is slow-witted he may say this with different types of citta. It is akusala citta when he says it with conceit, a feeling of: I am less than others. It can also be said with understanding of the hard facts of life. I am grateful for any kind of reminder because I know that I am forgetful of realities. James helped me when speaking of going to the grocery. When I walked back from the grocery the other day I thought of James and then I reflected on the Dhamma. And as James said, being slow-witted does not have anything to to with the degree of intelligence one has. We can think of the novice who could not remember one stanza, but after rubbing the cloth the Buddha gave him he was reminded of the dirt of defilements and attained arahatship. Nina. op 25-10-2003 01:21 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Hi, Victor - > > I like both your logic and your humor! ;-)) > 26330 From: Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:55am Subject: Vism. XIV 28, 29, 30, 31 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [Regarding the two planes (trainer and non-trainer) of the four kinds of discrimination] 28. And though they come into the categories of the two planes thus, they are nevertheless distinguishable in five aspects, that is to say, as achievement, mastery of scriptures, hearing, questioning, and prior effort. Herein, "achievement" is the reaching of Arahantship. "Mastery of scriptures" is mastery of the Buddha's word. "Hearing" is learning the Dhamma carefully and attentively. "Questioning" is discussion of knotty passages and explanatory passages in the texts, commentaries, and so on. "Prior effort" is devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas, up to the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and change-of-lineage by one who has practiced [the duty of] going [with the meditation subject on alms round] and coming back [with it]. (11) 29. Others have said: 'A prior effort, and great knowledge, [knowledge of] dialects, of scriptures, and questioning, and then achievement, and likewise waiting on a teacher, success in friends--these are conditions productive of discriminations'. 30. Herein, "prior effort" is the same as already stated. "Great learning" is skill in some science or sphere of craft. "Dialects" means skill in the hundred-and-one tongues, particularly in that of Magadha. "Scriptures" means mastery of the Buddha's word, even if only of the Chapter of Similes. (12) "Questioning" is questioning about defining the meaning of even a single stanza. "Achievement" is stream-entry ... or Arahantship. "Waiting on a teacher" is living with very learned intelligent teachers. "Success in friends" is acquisition of friends such as that. [443] Herein, Buddhas and Paccekabuddhas reach discriminations through prior effort and through achievement. Disciples do so through all these means. And there is no special way of developing a meditation subject in order to attain discriminations. But in trainers the attaining of the discriminations comes about next upon the liberation consisting in trainers' fruition, and in non-trainers it does so next upon the liberation consisting in non-trainers' fruition. For the discriminations come to success in noble ones only through the noble fruition as the ten powers do in Perfect Ones. So these were the discriminations referred to when it was said above 'It is of four kinds ... as the four discriminations' (par. 8). --------------------- (11) The expression "gatapaccaagatikabhaava" refers to the practice of 'carrying the meditation subject to and from the alms round', which is described at MA.i,257 in detail. The same expression is also used of a certain kind of refuse-rag (see Ch. II, par.17). (12) 'The "Chapter of Similes" is the Chapter of Twin Verses in the Dhammapada (Dh.1-20), they say. Others say it is the Book of Pairs in the First Fifty (M. Suttas 31-40)' (Pm. 436). 26331 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: slow-witted --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > I would like to mention, that for me Victor posting was a very important reminder, that even "social humbleness" can be an evil deed, if it is not based on reality, but a mere lie. At least, this was how I understood it. > > Gassho, > Thomas > > buddhatrue wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I've seen some people characterize themselves and others as slow- > > witted in their posts. I would suggest not to do that because: > > > Hi Victor, > > I think that when it comes to recognizing/understanding dhamma, the > characterization of `slow-witted' doesn't equal `stupid', as you > suggest. A person can have a very high IQ and still not understand > the dhamma…we were discussing a completely different matter from > comparative intelligence. Therefore, your reasoning doesn't apply. > > Metta, James Hi Thomas, I believe that you and Victor are really making too much of this. Take for example this information about the Taiwanese from the Internet: It is considered very impolite to boast in Taiwan. Always make sure to compliment people on anything that is worth noting. Conversely, when receiving a compliment, you are expected to play down your attributes and prowess. When someone compliments your language ability, for example, have a standard response ready ("I really should study more," or "It could be a lot better."). http://www.jobmonkey.com/teaching/asia/html/customs_of_tawain.html Now, are you suggesting that all of the Taiwanese are committing an `evil deed' when they do this? Isn't that a bit of hyperbole? I see this a social custom and I don't believe it falls under the category of lying. Metta, James 26332 From: Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Femininity and Masculinity Faculties Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/25/03 1:08:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > I did not read the article, but Suan gave a summary. I have a few remarks. > op 24-10-2003 14:55 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > > >Thank you for the CNN link with the article. > > > >So femininity and masculinity are pre-hormonal workings of the genes > >in embryonic brain! > N: the embryo at the first moment of life does not have brains as far as I > know, but I do not know about medical science. Besides, I am not inclined to > emphasize the notion of brain so much, as is mostly done by Western > scientists. > The Abhidhamma teaches that at the first moment of life of a human there > arise three groups of ten rupas (dasakas): one with the heartbase, one with > bodysense and one with sex. But these are infinitesimally tiny. The > Abhidhamma does not have science as its goal. The goal is knowing dhammas as > they are. We may cling to our sex, but in fact it is only a rupa. This rupa > conditions our posture, way of walking, interests, it has a great influence > on our life. It is beneficial to know that there are conditioning factors > for everything in action, speech and thought. > Nina. > =========================== Of course - just conditioning factors, just physical and mental inclinations, all modifiable, conditioned, and not-self. As far as the embryo is concerned, there is not much of a brain at least at the very early stages, but there are the genes, and it is 54 genes dealt with in the study that seem to be carriers/determiners/conditioners for femininity/masculinity. It seems clear to me that when there is so-called embodied existence, the bodily elements, in particular the genes, serve as vehicle for carrying at least some of the accumulations, and that was my point. Moreso, my point was that a notion of "gender tendency" in a namarupic stream, while possibly bothersome to some liberal/libertarian minded folks (me included - libertarian) gets a bit of modern-science support here. Obviously, given our anicca-view of things, the Buddhist "non-inherency" view, there is really no reason to be troubled by mere inclinations. In Buddhist writings, while beings tend to be born again and again as the same sex, there are also changes in sex in some lifetimes. Nothing, including femininity/masculinity, is fixed. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26333 From: Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 28, 29, 30, 31 ""Prior effort" is devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas, up to the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and change-of-lineage by one who has practiced [the duty of] going [with the meditation subject on alms round] and coming back [with it]." Hi Nina, I think this sentence is decisive in stating that the 4 discriminations are developed before a path moment. "For the discriminations come to success in noble ones only through the noble fruition as the ten powers do in Perfect Ones." L: And this sentence seems to indicate that the discriminations are a kind of auxiliary fruition of at least some cessation (nibbana). To combine these two we might say we don't really know what we are talking about until we have realized egolessness up to at least the first stage (sotapanna). Furthermore, I would say all these discriminations are abilities or skills in analyzing abstract, conceptual, path related, knowledge. How do you see it? Larry 26334 From: Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Rob, Re: "One of the definitions of citta mentioned earlier was, "the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object. The accompanying mental factors are the cetasikas; the second type of ultimate reality. Cittas never arise without cetasikas and cetasikas depend upon citta to get access to an object. Cittas are pure awareness; it is the accompanying cetasikas that determine if the citta is unwholesome, wholesome or neutral." L: It's been bothering me to say "cittas are pure awareness". Does abhidhamma really characterize citta that way? If not, what do you mean by it? Also you say cetasikas determine the ethical status of cittas. I thought cetasikas were subordinate to cittas; plus "determine" is a big word with many dimensions. What do you mean here? Larry 26335 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Re: "One of the definitions of citta mentioned earlier was, "the means > by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object. The > accompanying mental factors are the cetasikas; the second type of > ultimate reality. Cittas never arise without cetasikas and cetasikas > depend upon citta to get access to an object. Cittas are pure awareness; > it is the accompanying cetasikas that determine if the citta is > unwholesome, wholesome or neutral." > > L: It's been bothering me to say "cittas are pure awareness". Does > abhidhamma really characterize citta that way? If not, what do you mean > by it? Also you say cetasikas determine the ethical status of cittas. I > thought cetasikas were subordinate to cittas; plus "determine" is a big > word with many dimensions. What do you mean here? I suspect that the problem that we are having here is one of semantics. Each English word comes with a set of "baggage" and to properly represent a Pali term, it is rarely adequate to select one English word. For example, the cetasika piti has been translated as "enthusiasm", "zest", "rapture", "interest" and "joy". Each of these translations reflect a different aspect of piti. You are bothered by the phrase, "cittas are pure awareness". In this context, "pure" implies "without any other function such as feeling, attention, etc.". Rather than "pure awareness", I might say, "simple awareness", "raw awareness" or even "primordial awareness". Instead of "awareness", I could substitute "consciousness", "cognition" or even "knowing". A citta never arises without a set of cetasikas. Each of these cetasikas has a function to perform (a role to play). One could say that the citta is the "leader" or "forerunner" of the cetasikas as the function of the citta is to allow the cetasikas to access the object. I don't think that the concept of "subordinate" really fits here. The function of the cetasika "cetana" is to coordinate the activities of the other cetasikas; that does't mean that the other cetasikas are subordinate to "cetana". The ethical status of a citta is determined by the presence or absence of "roots"; the presence of lobha / dosa / moha makes the citta unwholesome, the presence of alobha / adosa / panna makes the citta wholesome. The absence of roots (i.e. no lobha / dosa / moha / alobha / adosa / panna) makes the citta without an ethical status. For example, the eye-consciousness citta (seeing) is without roots and has no ethical status. If I rewrote the sentence without the word "determining", it might be, "the ethical status (unwholesome / wholesome / neutral) of the citta is based on the presence or absence of root cetasikas (lobha / dosa / moha / alobha / adosa / panna)." Metta, Rob M :-) 26336 From: Ross Barlow Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:45pm Subject: new member intro Hello, everyone. I am new to this list and know that I can learn much from all of you. I am looking forward to reading what you folks have to say. I will probably not post much, except for occasional questions. I will mainly look, lurk, and learn. I am a 53 year old high school teacher (history and philosophy) from northwestern Pennsylvania. My first introduction to Buddhism was an encounter with Beatnik Zen in my youth in the 1960s, which has always fit well with my love of mountaineering and being in wild places. I have, in recent years, been interested more and more in the Theravadin tradition, which is having a tremendous impact on my life. Thanks to Howard for telling me of this group. With metta, -Ross Barlow. http://free-market.net/members/s/Strato.html Climbing Meditation, high on the West Face of Seneca Rocks. 26337 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 6:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] new member intro Ross Welcome to the list, and thanks for telling us something about yourself. I would be interested to hear more about your studies of Theravadin Buddhism and how it has had an impact on your life, when you feel comfortable about doing so. Please feel free to come in at any time on the list. Jon --- Ross Barlow wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > I am new to this list and know that I can learn much from all of > you. I am looking forward to reading what you folks have to say. > I will probably not post much, except for occasional questions. I > will mainly look, lurk, and learn. > > I am a 53 year old high school teacher (history and philosophy) > from > northwestern Pennsylvania. My first introduction to Buddhism was > an encounter with Beatnik Zen in my youth in the 1960s, which has > always > fit well with my love of mountaineering and being in wild places. > I have, in recent years, been interested more and more in the > Theravadin tradition, which is having a tremendous impact on my life. > > Thanks to Howard for telling me of this group. > > With metta, > > -Ross Barlow. > http://free-market.net/members/s/Strato.html > Climbing Meditation, high on the West Face of Seneca Rocks. 26338 From: Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Rob, My qualm concerning "pure awareness" is that that characterization isn't really found in CMA or Visuddhimagga. It gives the impression that all consciousness is the same and is only differentiated by cetasikas or sense objects. What about root consciousnesses and the other 89 or 121 kinds of consciousness? I don't think cetasikas are usually classified as roots and to say that cetasikas determine the consciousness is like saying clothes make the man or the king's retinue determines the king. It is the man who makes the clothes and the king who determines the retinue. Larry 26339 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 9:36pm Subject: Buddhists Conceited ? (Dharam) Dear Dharam, If I could just paraphrase your points. These are that some Buddhist believe that the Buddha was the only fully enlightened teacher. That this belief, although disguised as confidence, is actually conceit. And in fact there are other teachers who teach/taught a complete path to enlightenment: Just as there is not one path up a mountain but many/several. I think conceit is a very common element, mental factor (dhamma, dhatu, cetasika) and so it is not in doubt that most of us 'buddhists' feel conceited about all manner of things including the 'fact' that we are folliwng a fully enlightened one. However the teaching stress over and over that any attachment, incluidng to the Buddha or Dhamma is not wisdom and is actually harmful. Thus potentially one can learn to see this danger. Also one may have the view that all or many religions are essentially teaching the same thing and still have conceit about this view. Or one could believe that no religions have such teachings and be conceited about that idea. Or one could say that they neither believe nor not believe that all/some/one teaching has a path to enlightenment. Thus it is always the moment, what element is arising now, that awareness can know as it is. Only in this way can the actual chracteristic of each different element be known. If conceit is seen in the presnt moment its ugly nature can be seen. RobertK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342" wrote: > Dear RobertK, > > > I think you make some good points. > > Thanks. I was hoping we would actually discuss contemporary > attitudes of students, but it looks like you prefer to revert to the > Teachers themselves: > > > Probably the best step to take would be if you write about any > > other teachings or religions that you find equal to the teaching of > > the Buddha in wisdom etc. > > To paraphrase: Who can even measure up to the wisdom of my own > teacher? > > Presumably, the only 'acceptable' response would be: "No one else > possibly could"! After all, how many devout followers of a Guide > would be comfortable even considering the possibility of co- equals, > let alone superiors; especially when dismissing all else as > inferior, is so appealing to the ego? How many even on dsg? > > However, the same question can be asked by a Christian about Jesus; a > Jew about Moses; a Muslim about Muhammad; a Taoist about Lao Tan; and > so on. In fact, it could be asked about each of the teachers who > we know of ever speaking about realizing the ultimate reality. We > can easily guess the answers that almost all these students would > insist on. Yet a survey of the whole scene reveals a problem - the > answers are all different, depending on their particular biases. > > Therefore, who is qualified to make this judgment? The potential > judge would need these minimum qualifications: > > 1. Absence of any bias; > > 2. Complete first-hand knowledge of the paths being compared by having > traveled faithfully on each (more valid than intellectual > assumptions based on centuries old hearsay in many cases); > > 3. Having realized the ultimate reality i.e. having reached the > destination by those paths. > > Do you know of anyone so qualified to compare any two, let alone make > a global judgment? I do not. > > Without offending anyone, we should also consider excluding the master > teachers themselves. Why? Because it is exceedingly unlikely > any of them has such qualifications. Most concentrated on their own > path, a precious few considered the validity of other paths. What > chance has the average spiritual explorer today of making a sound > discriminant judgment? > > > Otherwise it is speculation that there are such teachers. > > Of course there has never been, nor is likely to be, anyone such as > the Buddha...... or Jesus, or Lao Tan, etc. They are as unique, as > the individual mountain guides expert in their own paths up to the > ultimate view at the peak. Choose according to your taste, but no > need to reject the existence or expertise of the others you have not > chosen. The same applies to the path - easier, faster, safer, > wiser - all illusory details along the way, irrelevant once you have > reached the destination. > > It is the destination, NOT the path, NOR the guide, that is of the > ultimate importance. If we focus on that, we may become much less > attached to the path, the guide, or ourselves. They then become > what they always were - practical necessities for the journey - > nothing more, nothing less. > > We should clearly see defense of one's own path and guide, and denial > of others, as based on attachment - something warned against by > almost all the enduring teachings that we know of today. > > My only intention is to warn against the well-disguised hurdle of > contemporary conceit along the path - any path, with any guide - > always to the same destination. > > metta, > dharam 26340 From: Nanapalo Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Just to say Hello to All Member... dear Sugiarto, greatly appreciate your contribution in the lists. may you ever grow in the Dhamma. selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sugiarto" To: "Dhamma Study Group" Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 2:24 PM Subject: [dsg] Just to say Hello to All Member... > Namo Buddhaya... > > Let's me introduces myself first, > My Name is Sugiarto Limawan , Male, 26th years Old, lived in Jakarta- > Indonesia. > > I interesting with "Dhamma Study Group" mailing list to find out about > Buddhist , I still a member of Local Buddhist's Mailing list, such as: > Mahasati, SamaggiJaya and others . > > I know DSG from someone ,who are member of one buddhits's mailing list. > > NB: I'm sorry , if my english so bad , because i'm not expert in english. > > Mettacittena, > S.L 26341 From: robmoult Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:35pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > My qualm concerning "pure awareness" is that that characterization isn't > really found in CMA or Visuddhimagga. It gives the impression that all > consciousness is the same and is only differentiated by cetasikas or > sense objects. What about root consciousnesses and the other 89 or 121 > kinds of consciousness? Citta is one entity, divided into 89 or 121 types (see CMA p265). Unfortunately, they use the term "citta" to describe both the entity and the types and this can generate confusion. > I don't think cetasikas are usually classified > as roots and to say that cetasikas determine the consciousness is like > saying clothes make the man or the king's retinue determines the king. > It is the man who makes the clothes and the king who determines the > retinue. Roots are the cetasikas lobha / dosa / moha / alobha / adosa / panna. A citta with roots is a type of citta with one or more of these cetasikas. Sorry for the short answer; I am just about to get on a plane and don't have time to go into more details. Metta, Rob M :-) 26342 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Dear Victor, Thank you. I do not have the Co to this sutta, but my PTS made a note to the passage "or something better than that": MA II 63 points out that This note is to another sutta, but it can be applied here. The end is very interesting: the King who has not lasting happiness, and the Buddha who experiences nothing but happiness. The Co note: the happiness of attaining the fruits (of the Way). This is fruition attainment, phaalasamaapatti. What Co notes are given by B.B.? Also to the first one. Nina. op 25-10-2003 07:58 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > Hi Nina, > > Here is the link to another translation of MN.14 Cuuladukkhakkhandha > Sutta: > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- > Nikaya/Majjhima1/014-culadukkhakkhanda-sutta-e1.htm > > I also read about Mahanama in Anguttara Nikaya. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-013.html > > The Buddha's instruction to Mahanama would be very helpful to one's > practice. > > Peace, > Victor > 26343 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:07pm Subject: Myanmar dear Nina and others, Missed you , Nina. If there is not the development of right understanding at this present moment, then the eradication of kilesa can never occur. Only this presently arising dhamma can be known directly, by r.u., otherwise ir is just thinking, about the past, about the future. Myanmar is just a story, cannot be touched, seen, heard, smelt or tasted as any reality. Where is Myanmar in the visible object; when seeing arises and experiences visible object, no Bagan, no Shwedagon. Golden pagodas, amazing sunsets, piles of stinking rubbish are merely objects of thinking. No right understanding at those moments. We took as many opportunities as we coulld to have dhamma discussions with Aachan. Sarah made me smile as she marked each "shopping" slot on the itinary as opportunity for d.d as a few of us weren't into shopping, including Aachan. Quest. about mana and wrong view and how closely related they seem to be. A.S. would answer 'is there mana n0w? if there is, then it can be known, otherwise just thinking about it'. A very tightly packed schedule had us visiting many, many places [lots of chedis]. I stayed at the hotel one day to relax and I thought about 'thinking' and how 'messy' the world of concepts is. So the moment of Sati must be a very 'clear' , a moment of clarity about what this present moment really, really is - .no confusion at t hat moment. patience, courage and good cheer. Azita ps I think the development of R.U takes a long, long time. But it must start somewhere, so if not now, when? it has to be now. 26344 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:12pm Subject: On the road to Mandalay, pigs and compassion Dear group, Sukin - just looked at the photos - thanks. Azita is showing me the intricacies of internet cafes ... I remember hearing my father singing "On the Road to Mandalay - where the flying fishes play - and the moon comes up like thunder - Out of China cross the bay". That song, and memories of Rudyard Kiplings' writings were flavours of my childhood. What a surprise to find that Mandalay is absolutely nowhere near the coast! Standing on the balcony of the Marriott in Bkk brough a visitor to me - not a monkey as in Sri Lanka, but a blue budgerigah with a yellow head. It flew to the balcony I was standing on - tried to land on the railing next to me, fell to the floor. It escaped as I tried to cup it in my hands. The next day around the pool, some German tourists stopped in front of me, staring just past my left shoulder. This time, a green budgie was sitting on the back of the lounge seat next to me. Interesting (and silly) how the mind tries to invest occurrences with meaning ... I thought, "Australian birds coming to an Australian woman in a foreign land ... is it a sign I should call home?" So, I did ... and it wasn't. :-) The Animal Plane is the only other plane of existence that we can see. A trip to Thailand for me always contains lots of reflections on animals. It is usually only 10 hours from dropping Rusty to the safety of the Boarding Kennels, to seeing the Soi Dogs of Bangkok. This time there were very few Soi Dogs - on the Thai TV News we saw the dog catchers running with butterfly nets, capturing frightened animals. We were assured they were merely being taken to north Thailand to be released out of the view of the APEC delegates. (!) In Myanmar there are dogs in the Temple grounds and they mostly stay without hindrance, but many look unwell and have skin diseases and sores. It is one thing to think of the precept about non-harming - I wondered about how "not saving" is related. I understand that to be born an animal is vipaka from past kamma committed, and how scary to be born not able to hear and understand the Dhamma. (except for the bats and the flea RobK once told me about - but a tiny few out of billions.) And I thought about future rebirths and how the Teachings tell us that the chance of a human rebirth is so rare as to be almost infinitesimal. I thought of how we view humans as more valuable than animals. We stopped outside a small silk making factory in Mandalay, and people were inspecting the process and buying the fabric. I wandered out to the footpath. A large sow and five piglets were snuffling round in a rubbish heap a few feet away. (I thought about the bacon many had eaten for breakfast.) I'm struggling to understand that compassion is only a brief mind moment, and that the rest is just thinking as the others tell me. Is Compassion really of any use without action? metta and karuna, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 26345 From: bodhi2500 Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 0:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hello Nina,Victor and all Nina wrote: > What Co notes are given by B.B.? Also to the first one. > Nina. From Culadukkhakkhandha Sutta MN14 "Even though a Noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little gratification,much suffering, and much despair, and how great is the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures,apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, he may still be attracted to sensual pleasures." B.B notes> The "rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures" are the rapture and pleasure pertaining to the first and second jhanas; the states "more peaceful than that" are the higher jhanas. From this passage it seems that a disciple may attain even to the second path and fruit without possessing mundane jhana. Com.> A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti tato jhaanadvayato santatara.m a~n~na.m uparijhaanadvaya~nceva maggadvaya~nca. A little later in the sutta the "or to something more peaceful than that" passage occurs again, the com. to that is > A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti idha upari jhaanadvaya.m ceva cattaaro ca maggaa adhippetaa. Hopefully someone can offer a translation to the com. passages.. Steve 26346 From: monomuni Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 1:46am Subject: The 2 Nirvanas! Friends: The 2 dimensions of Nirvana: There is Nibbana here & now in this very life: We call it 'sa-upadi-sesa-nibbana' i.e. Nibbana with the substrates of becoming, still remaining: Then there is final Nibbana, with no substrates of being nor becoming left: an-upadi-sesa-nibbana: Buddha explained it thus: ______________________________________________________________ The 2 aspects of Nibbana: 'This was said by the Blessed One: "Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left & the Nibbana-element with no remains left. "What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahat, one whose mental fermentations is eliminated, who have fulfilled the Noble life, who has done all what was to be done, who has laid down the burden, attained the goal, who has destroyed the bondages of being, who is completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense abilities remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable, and feels both pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, aversion, and confusion in him, that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left. "Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue remaining? Here a bhikkhu is an arahat, one whose mental fermentations is eliminated, who have fulfilled the Noble life, who has done all what was to be done, who has laid down the burden, attained the goal, who has destroyed the bondages of being, who is completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will grow cool right there & cease. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left. "These, bhikkhus, are the two Dimensions of Nibbana." These two Nibbana-elements were thus made known by the Seeing One, confident & detached: The first is the element with substrates of being remaining, realized here and now, but with re-becoming destroyed. The other, having no residue left for the future, is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease. Having understood this unconstructed state, released in mind, with the cord to becoming eliminated, They attain to the sublime essence of all states. Delighting in the ceasing & calming of craving, those steady ones have left all being & becoming.' Source; Thus Was it Said: Itivuttaka II.17; Iti 38 ______________________________________________________________ Final Nibbana: So have I heard: At a certain occasion when the Blessed One was instructing, arousing, inspiring, explaining & gladdening a group of Bhikkhus with a Dhamma talk on Nibbana, then, these Bhikkhus listened, fully attentive, well motivated, mentally absorbed into what they heard, then appreciating the value of this circumstance, the Blessed One, exclaimed: There is, Bhikkhus, that state, that sphere, that realm, that dimension: where there is neither earth, water, fire nor any air, where there is neither solidity, fluidity, heat nor any movement, where there is neither extension, cohesion, vibration nor any diffusion, where there is neither any space, nor any consciousness, where there is not even void empty nothingness, where there is neither perception nor non-perception, where there is neither any here nor there, nor in between nor beyond , where there is neither any sun, moon nor any universe at all !!! There, Bhikkhus, one cannot point out any coming, nor any going, nor any remaining, nor any duration, nor any beginning & much less any ending. Neither is there any activity, movement nor fix stability, nor any basis or substrate of any conditioning medium whatsoever. This - just this – is the End of Suffering. Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 1 ______________________________________________________________ Subtle Nibbana: So have I heard: On that very same occasion of instructing Bhikkhus on the nature of Nibbana, the Blessed One exclaimed: Hard it is to see the unconstructed, the undistorted. This independent state is not easily realized. Craving is cut for the One, who so knows, since he sees. that there is nothing to cling to … Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 2 ______________________________________________________________ Traceless Nibbana: So have I heard: On that same occasion, the Blessed One, furthermore exclaimed: There is, Bhikkhus, what is unborn, unbecome, uncreated & unconstructed. If, Bhikkhus, there was not this unborn, unbecome, uncreated & unconstructed state, no escape from what is born, become, created & constructed could be realized. But since there is what is unborn, unbecome, uncreated & unconstructed, the escape from this born, become, created & constructed state can therefore be declared & realized. Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 3 ______________________________________________________________ Forceless Nibbana: So have I heard: Finally on that same occasion, teaching on the nature of Nibbana the Blessed One exclaimed: In any dependence there is bound to be instability. In Independence there cannot be any instability. When there is no liable instability, no feeble wavering, there is a quiet calm, stillness, serenity & peace. When there is such solid tranquility, then there is no tendency to drift, no attraction, no mental push or pull, nor strain of appeal or repulsion. When there is no attraction, no drift, no bending, then there is no movement, no development, no coming nor going. No starting nor ending. When there is no coming nor going, then neither is there any ceasing nor reappearing. Neither ceasing nor reappearing, there is no here nor there nor beyond nor in between. This – just this – is the End of Suffering. Udana – Inspiration: VIII - 4 ______________________________________________________________ The Meditator: So have I heard: When seeing Ven. Mahamoggallana sitting absorbed in meditation, cross-legged, straight upright & internally aware of the body, the Blessed One, inspired & welcoming the opening of this event, exclaimed: Aware of the body, perceiving it’s internal forms, in complete control of the contacts of the 6 senses, such Bhikkhu, ever composed in absorption, may directly, by himself, come to touch & taste Nibbana. Udana – Inspiration: III - 5 ______________________________________________________________ Elementally Beyond So have I heard: When the Blessed One, on repeated requests from Bahiya instructed him in what were Venerable Bahiya’s last minutes of life, the result was that he, Venerable Bahiya - the bark-clothed ascetic - attained final Nibbana! This direct, clear-cut, exact yet quite subtle admonition was so simply expounded: In the seen is merely the process of seeing. In the heard is merely the process of hearing. In the sensed is merely the process of sensing. In the thought is merely the process of thinking. So knowing, you will not be connected nor obsessed ‘with that’. So disconnected you will not be absorbed ‘in or within that’. So neither ‘with that’ nor ‘in that’ you Are Not! ‘by that’ sensation. # When there is no ‘you’ inferred or conjectured by that sensation, then ‘you’ are neither ‘here’, ‘there’,‘beyond’ nor ‘in between' ... On realizing the importance of this event the Blessed One exclaimed: Where neither solidity, fluidity, heat or diffusion find footing, there no sun, moon nor star shines. There is neither any light yet nor is there any darkness. When the Noble, through stilling of all construction, through quieting of all mental formation, directly experiences this, then is he freed from both form & formlessness, then is he released from both pleasure & pain …’ Udana – Inspiration: I – 10 Comment #: A gold-nugget of an instruction! Brevity is clarity! There is no-one who senses, even though sensing occurs! Seeing is just a selfless event of contact between eye, object & visual consciousness. No ‘person’ or ‘onlooker’ is involved there! No subject or ‘I’ is created, just because there is an object, or just because there occurs the process of seeing … The fact that there is an image projected, does per se imply, in or by itself, that any-one actually is ‘looking in’ or ‘is behind’ the camera ... ‘By that’ perception no ‘perceiver’ is thereby present, created or engaged! So the ‘personal entity’ we assume, suppose, deduce, expect & believe to enjoy the experience is merely a mental construct, an idea, a concept & not a reality … The passive impersonal process of sensing, perception & experiencing cannot thereby be ‘instrumental’ for neither creating nor inferring any ‘being in existence’. The fact of this fundamental ‘selflessness’ is far the most essential core of the Buddha-Dhamma. Outmost important to grasp yet subtle, counterintuitive & thereby difficult & somewhat ‘nasty’ to comprehend. Keep trying, since this central NO-SELF exists (anatta) teaching is the opener, the releaser & very freer of any mind! Being hopelessly in love with an imagined idea of ‘I’ is both fatal, tragic & sardonically comic … ;-) Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] Friendship is truly GREATEST; For Gladdening of Good People. Goodwill Motivates Noble Life! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct Easy subscription by sending an email to: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Cut off your affection as though it were an autumn lily, with the hand. Cultivate the very path of peace. Nibbana has been expounded by the Auspicious One. Random Dhammapada Verse 285 26347 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Photos of Myanmar Sukin and All Many thanks for posting these pics, which I am looking forward to viewing as soon as I get home tomorrow (Monday, around 12 noon Hong kong time). Somewhat sadly, Sarah and I are coming to the end of a wonderful 10 days in Myanmar and here in Bangkok. I can't quite accept at the moment that by this time tomorrow I will not only be back in Hong Kong but will have just about finished an afternoon's work! Our thanks to all the English speaking members of the tour group for great discussion and good companionship on the trip -- Sukin, Betty, Num, Christine, Azita, Jack (and wife Oi), Shakti and Sandra (potential newbie), and also to Kom and O (from Calif), Ivan and Ell for the time here in Bangkok. Many thanks also to all of you who posted while we were away. Checking the list from time to time and reading through printouts of all the posts along the way (despite very limited internet access in Myanmar)has been one of the highlights for Sarah and I. Many good points to consider. Myanmar is a very nice country to visit, despite the bad press it gets, and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone considering a visit. Have to go now. Sarah and I are looking forward to getting back to discussion with you all soon. Jon --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > Hi All, > > We have all just arrived back from Myanmar. > It was a great trip. > Happy to be able to access dsg again. > I have uploaded some photos from our trip. > Hope you will all enjoy viewing them. > > Metta, > > Sukin. 26348 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:47am Subject: onyx Deer and compassionate lion Dear Group, Just watching a documentary on Japanese Tv set in Africa. They had some nice footage where a lost deer was taken in by a lion! The baby deer got separated from its mother and a female lion looked after it for 3 days. The deer even tried to feed from the lion but couldn't get milk. Still the lion protected it from rain by putting it in a bush and covering it with its own body. In the end the lion was asleep and the mother deer came along and found her offspring. When the lion woke up it seemed concerned about where the baby deer had gone. RobertK 26349 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:30am Subject: Re: new member intro Hi Ross, Welcome to the group. I remember when I was on d-l group you sent me a photo of you way up in the mountains. It would look nice in the photo files I think. Robert K (kirkpatrick) In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ross Barlow wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > I am new to this list and know that I can learn much from all of > you. I am looking forward to reading what you folks have to say. I > will probably not post much, except for occasional questions. I will > mainly look, lurk, and learn. > Rocks. 26350 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:10am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 20 B Commentary Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 20 B. Relevant passage of the sutta: ``katamaa ca, raahula, aakaasadhaatu? aakaasadhaatu siyaa ajjhattikaa, siyaa baahiraa. "And what, Rahula, is the space element? The space element may be internal or external. katamaa ca, raahula, ajjhattikaa aakaasadhaatu? ya.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m aakaasa.m aakaasagata.m upaadinna.m, And what, Rahula, is the internal space element? That, internally, and individually, is space, empty, and clung to, seyyathida.m -- ka.n.nacchidda.m naasacchidda.m² namely: the orifice of the ear, nose, mouth.² Ya.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m aakaasa.m aakaasagata.m upaadinna.m, That, internally, and individually, is space, spacious, and clung to, seyyathida.m - ka.n.nacchidda.m naasacchidda.m mukhadvaara.m, namely: the orifice of the ear, nostril, mouth, yena ca asitapiitakhaayitasaayita.m ajjhoharati, whereby (food that) is consumed having being tasted, drunk and eaten is swallowed, yattha ca asitapiitakhaayitasaayita.m santi.t.thati, where (food that) is consumed having being tasted, drunk and eaten is stored, yena ca asitapiitakhaayitasaayita.m adhobhaaga.m nikkhamati.. and whereby (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten passes out of the body lower down. Commentary text: aakaasadhaatuya.m aakaasagatanti aakaasabhaava.m gata.m. With regard to the element of space, the expression, ³connected with space² means: having the characteristic of emptiness. upaadinnanti aadinna.m gahita.m paraama.t.tha.m, sariira.t.thakanti attho. As to the expression, clung to, this means, clung to, grasped and misapprehended. The meaning is that it refers to the bodily frame *. ka.n.nacchiddanti ma.msalohitaadiihi asamphu.t.thaka.n.navivara.m. As to the expression, cavity in the ear, this means, an opening in the ear, not touched by flesh and blood, etc. naasacchiddaadiisupi eseva nayo. With regard to cavity in the nose etc. this is also according to the same system of teaching. yena caati yena chiddena. As to the words ³and that by which² , this means: by which cavity. ajjhoharatiiti anto paveseti, As to the words, ³he swallows², this means, he makes it go inside. jivhaabandhanato hi yaava udarapa.talaa manussaana.m vidatthicatura"ngula.m chidda.t.thaana.m hoti. From the base of the tongue as far as the mucous membrane of the intestines of humans there is a hollow tract of one cube and four fingers length. ta.m sandhaayeta.m vutta.m. Now, this is said in this connection. yattha caati yasmi.m okaase. As to the words, ³And where², this means: at whichever occasion. santi.t.thatiiti pati.t.thaati. As to the expression, it remains, this means: it is established. manussaana~nhi mahanta.m pa.taparissaavanamatta~nca udarapa.tala.m naama hoti. What is like a large filter for humans is called intestines. ta.m sandhaayeta.m vutta.m. Now, this is said in this connection. adhobhaaga.m nikkhamatiiti yena he.t.thaa nikkhamati. As to the words, it comes out at the lower part, this means: where it comes out underneath. dvatti.msahatthamatta.m ekaviisatiyaa .thaanesu va"nka.m anta.m naama hoti. Here, the intestines have been referred to that are thirtytwo cubits (a cubit being half a yard) in length and coiled in twentyone places **. ta.m sandhaayeta.m vutta.m. Now, this is said in this connection. ya.m vaa pana~n~nampiiti As to the words, or whatever else, iminaa sukhumasukhuma.m cammama.msaadiantaragata~nceva lomakuupabhaavena ca .thita.m aakaasa.m dasseti. this means: by this he explains the very subtle space situated between the inner skin and flesh and so on, which is like skin pores ***. sesametthaapi pathaviidhaatuaadiisu vuttanayeneva veditabba.m. Here, the other words should be understood in the same way as what is said with reference to the element of earth and so on ****. ***** English: With regard to the element of space, the expression, ³connected with space² means: having the characteristic of emptiness. As to the expression, clung to, this means, clung to, grasped and misapprehended. The meaning is that it refers to the bodily frame *. As to the expression, cavity in the ear, this means, an opening in the ear, not touched by flesh and blood, etc. With regard to cavity in the nose etc. this is also according to the same system of teaching. As to the words ³and that by which² , this means: by which cavity. As to the words, ³he swallows², this means, he makes it go inside. From the base of the tongue as far as the mucous membrane of the intestines of humans there is a hollow tract of one cube and four fingers length. Now, this is said in this connection. As to the words, ³And where², this means: at whichever occasion. As to the expression, it remains, this means: it is established. What is like a large filter for humans is called intestines. Now, this is said in this connection. As to the words, it comes out at the lower part, this means: where it comes out underneath. Here, the intestines have been referred to that are thirtytwo cubits (a cubit being half a yard) in length and coiled in twentyone places **. Now, this is said in this connection. As to the words, or whatever else, this means: by this he explains the very subtle space situated between the inner skin and flesh and so on, which is like skin pores ***. Here, the other words should be understood in the same way as what is said with reference to the element of earth and so on ****. ____________ * The subcommentary states: clung to by carving (tanhaa) and wrong view (di.t.thi) **See also Visuddhimagga VIII, 118-120, for the intestines, etc. *** The Visuddhimagga VI, 89, states that there are ninety-nine thousand pores. **** The subcommentary refers to the ³Discourse on the Elephant¹s Footprint². ***** Nina. 26351 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Larry, I can add. Indeed citta is the chief in knowing an object, it is accompanied by different kinds of cetasikas. Rob indicated the roots, wholesome and unwholesome, and these are like the root of a tree: the base. They condition citta to be wholesome or unwholesome. Besides there are many other types of cetasikas, wholesome, unwholesome or neither. Pure awareness: Citta just cognizes an object, that is its task. Awareness is not used here in the sense of sati. Cetasikas assist the citta each in their own way to know the object. Does this help? Nina. op 26-10-2003 06:35 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: >> Hi Rob, >> >> My qualm concerning "pure awareness" is that that characterization > isn't >> really found in CMA or Visuddhimagga. 26352 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member intro Hi Ross, welcome to the list, and could you just start with one question? Then the contact is established. Looking forward, Nina. op 25-10-2003 21:45 schreef Ross Barlow op rbarlow@p...: > I > will probably not post much, except for occasional questions. I will > mainly look, lurk, and learn. 26353 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Just to say Hello to All Member... Dear Selamat, delighted to hear from you. I know you have little time, but I hope Sugiarto can tell us about the discussions you all have in your group, best wishes from Nina. op 25-10-2003 21:55 schreef Nanapalo op nana_palo@c...: > dear Sugiarto, > greatly appreciate your contribution in the lists. > may you ever grow in the Dhamma. > > selamat 26354 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: slow-witted Hi James. Interesting. It makes me think of Japan. When praising a house or food, they would answer, it is bad, . And in China they speak about themselves as . Nina. op 25-10-2003 19:12 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Conversely, > when receiving a compliment, you are expected to play down your > attributes and prowess. 26355 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Hi Nina and Steve, Thank you both for providing the references. My understanding regarding the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" largely agrees with Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes: The "rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures" are the rapture and pleasure pertaining to the first and second jhanas; the states "more peaceful than that" are the higher jhanas. as provided by Steve. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Victor, [snip] 26356 From: Larry Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Pure awareness: Citta just cognizes an object, that is its task. >Awareness is not used here in the sense of sati. Cetasikas assist >the citta each in their own way to know the object. Hi Nina and Rob, This completely changes my view of consciousness. I thought greed rooted consciousness was a particular kind of consciousness rather than a generic consciousness with a particular cetasika. This view of consciousness as being all the same is very compatible with the Vedanta. Surprising! Larry 26357 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi, Larry (and Nina and Rob) - In a message dated 10/26/03 2:12:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > >Pure awareness: Citta just cognizes an object, that is its task. > >Awareness is not used here in the sense of sati. Cetasikas assist > >the citta each in their own way to know the object. > > Hi Nina and Rob, > > This completely changes my view of consciousness. I thought greed > rooted consciousness was a particular kind of consciousness rather > than a generic consciousness with a particular cetasika. This view of > consciousness as being all the same is very compatible with the > Vedanta. Surprising! > > Larry > =========================== Is your car painted green the same as "that" car painted red? The function is the same, but not the color. In a sense, do not the cetasikas and object of an act of awareness constitute the "coloration" of that act of awareness. The citta, its cetasikas, and its object are inseparable and co-conditioning. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26358 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar trip Dear Sarah, Jon and friends, welcome back all of you. We really missed you. Delighted to hear the discussions were so good and to hear who were present. Kom, I did not know you were in Bgk, do tell us more about the discussions. And also Kh O, how nice you were there. Azita, thank you very much for your post and good reminders, and Christine for the post about animals and compassion. Yes, whenever there is an opportunity let us take action. We live in the world. There should not be in our life a contradiction of ultimate and conventional realities! We should find a balance. Nina. op 26-10-2003 10:50 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Somewhat sadly, Sarah and I are coming to the end of a wonderful 10 > days in Myanmar and here in Bangkok. .. > Our thanks to all the English speaking members of the tour group for > great discussion and good companionship on the trip -- Sukin, Betty, > Num, Christine, Azita, Jack (and wife Oi), Shakti and Sandra > (potential newbie), and also to Kom and O (from Calif), Ivan and Ell > for the time here in Bangkok. 26359 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Dear Steve, Thank you very much. I have to take time to study, and see below for transl, Nina. op 26-10-2003 08:55 schreef bodhi2500 op seisen_@h...: > B.B notes> > > The "rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures" are > the rapture and pleasure pertaining to the first and second jhanas; > the states "more peaceful than that" are the higher jhanas. From this > passage it seems that a disciple may attain even to the second path > and fruit without possessing mundane jhana. > > Com.> > > A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti tato jhaanadvayato santatara.m > a~n~na.m uparijhaanadvaya~nceva maggadvaya~nca. >As to the expression something else more peaceful than that, this means: more peaceful than the two (stages of) jhaana are the two higher jhanas and the two Paths. > > A little later in the sutta the "or to something more peaceful than > that" passage occurs again, the com. to that is > > > A~n~na.m vaa tato santataranti idha upari jhaanadvaya.m ceva cattaaro > ca maggaa adhippetaa. >As to the expression something more peaceful than that, this means: here are meant the two higher jhanas and the four Paths. Nina. 26360 From: Jerdjun Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:41am Subject: A new member profile. Hi, I am new to the group. I live in Fresno, California. My husband, Sutee, and I own a Thai resteurant in Fresno, and we have been studing with Ajan Sujin for 5 years, but my knowledge about damma is very little. Not much for me to say because I am shy, and I want to keep a low profile. Jerdjun. 26361 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member profile. Hi, Jerdjun Very pleased you have joined us (Yin dee maak, na krup). I am writing this from Don Muang airport, on our way back home after a delightful trip to Myanmar with Ajarn Sujin and others (including some from Fresno and elsewhere on the West Coast). I'm sure you will feel at home here. Please consider sharing your dhamma knowledge with others on the list (shyness is not allowed as an excuse on this list!). Jon --- Jerdjun wrote: > Hi, I am new to the group. I live in Fresno, California. My > husband, > Sutee, and I own a Thai resteurant in Fresno, and we have been > studing with Ajan Sujin for 5 years, but my knowledge about damma > is > very little. Not much for me to say because I am shy, and I want to > keep a low profile. > Jerdjun. 26362 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Howard, If all consciousness is the same and there is no moment without consciousness, how do we know consciousness is impermanent? If we say, theoretically the change in cetasika or object signifies a change in consciousness, what does change in consciousness mean if the consciousness is the same? Larry 26363 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samatha, sutta and co. Victor (and Nina, Steve and all) I agree with this. It is a reference to higher levels of samatha. I think Bh Bodhi's note must come from the commentary, although for some reason he does not attribute it as such. Good to have sorted this out. However, I have somewhat lost our original thread, and will need to go back and pick it up again. Thanks to Steve and Nina for following this through. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nina and Steve, > > Thank you both for providing the references. My understanding > regarding the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" > largely agrees with Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes: > > The "rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures" > are > the rapture and pleasure pertaining to the first and second jhanas; > the states "more peaceful than that" are the higher jhanas. > > as provided by Steve. 26364 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > Is your car painted green the same as "that" car painted > red? The > function is the same, but not the color. In a sense, do not the > cetasikas and > object of an act of awareness constitute the "coloration" of that > act of > awareness. The citta, its cetasikas, and its object are inseparable > and co-conditioning. I'm not sure about 'inseparable'. Does this not tend to 'reify' the citta/cetasika combination and its object? While the 2 are mutually dependent at the very moment that the object is experienced, each still has its own individual characteristic. As I understand it, at a moment of, say, seeing, awareness could be aware of the seeing or of the visible object, but not of a 'composite' of seeing-and-visible object. As to conditioning, there are many conditions applying at a given 'dhamma' at a given moment, and not all of these concern the relationship between the moment of consciousness and its object. It helps to know of the other kinds of conditions at play also ;-)). Jon 26365 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor I think I've managed to find the point where we left off ;-)). --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Larry, Jon, and all, > > Perhaps the way to have a clear idea why the Buddha recommended > right concentration/samma samadhi or what is the exact relationship > between tranquility and concentration in samma samadhi is to > develop right concentration/samma samadhi itself. Well, yes, but we first need to know what RC of the Noble Eightfold Path is and how it fits inot the scheme of things. Let's remember that not every instance of mundane samatha is RC of the Noble Eightfold Path. > Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi? As a > factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it leads to the cessation of > dukkha. Yes, but (again!) it is the NEP itself that leads to the cessation of suffering, not the individual path factors taken in isolation, as I understand it. > Specifically, > > > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the > dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the > infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell > you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html This is so for the person who develops insight based on samatha. According to the comments I quoted before, it should not be read as meaning that mundane samatha is the same thing as RC as a factor of the NEP. > Let me quote from MN14 Culadukkahkkhandha Sutta* the following > passage: I see now that Nina is planning to look at the commentary material provided by Steve, so I will wait until I have seen that before giving my comments on this passage. Time to board our flight anyway. Talk to you again later. Jon > > "Mahanama, there is still a state unabanddoned by you internally, > owing to which at times states of greed, hate, and delusion invade > your mind and remain; for were that state already abandoned by you > internally you would not be living the home life, you would not be > enjoying sensual pleasures. It is because that state is > unabandoned > by you internally that you are living the home life and enjoying > sensual pleasures. > "Even though a noble disciple has seen clearly as it actually is > with proper wisdom how sensual pleasures provide little > gratification, much suffering, and much despair, and how great is > the danger in them, as long as he still does not attain to the > rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart > from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that, > he > may still be attracted to sensual pleasures. But when a noble > disciple has seen clearly as it actually is with proper wisdom how > sensual pleasures provide little gratification, much suffering, and > much despair, and how great is the danger in them, and he attains > to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, > apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than > that, then he is no longer attracted to sensual pleasure. > 26366 From: abbott_hk Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar trip Dear Nina & All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, Jon and friends, > welcome back all of you. We really missed you. > Delighted to hear the discussions were so good and to hear who were present. .... Not quite back - I'm on on a Thai computer at the airport and fumbling around with the keys as I have so meany pleasant thoughts about the trip and friends....'whispering lobha' as K. Sujin quietly reminded us all many times as we asked questions about the details, find ways for wholesome states to develop quicker or showed concern about unwholesome states....'whispering lobha' as we looked at tables of food, sunsets, stupas, markets or swimming pools(in my case)....'whispering lobha' as we excitedly discussed dhamma on buses, in airports, over meals together and with K.Sujin whenever we could arrange it.... 'whispering lobha' as I met Kom for the first time over breakfast yesterday at our hotel and other friends like Shakti & Sandra for the first time..... more 'whispering lobha' (in truth it was often screaming lobha) to spend time with old friends again, chat and laugh a lot together too..., but it was a really super group... and now more 'whispering lobha' as I catch up with you all on list, in between the great appreciation for all the super dhamma-packed posts and friendly comments...Ken H, James & All (too many to mention) - many thanks;-). This is likely to get zapped anytime, so will catch up more after settling back into Hong Kong life....another world from the quiet, undeveloped, seemingly unpolulated beautiful Myanmar countryside with nothing but stupas on the horizon.... and of course, 'whispering lobha' as I tell these stories with just occasional awareness of thinking as the reality in between the seeing, hearing and so on. At these precious moments of awareness, there's no dream or illusion and then the 'whispering lobha' follows again..... Asavas(intoxicants)fermenting and oozing out at every opportunity. So I understand in the Vism context (discussed before with Nina and Larry and now with KS), a moment of understanding and then lobha attaching to it. Elsewhere, understanding comprehending the 'whispering lobha' and other asavas for what they are - conditioned dhammas, anatta and quite beyond any control. Boarding call - another set of stories;-) Any 'whispering lobha' now? Any awareness or understanding? Metta, Sarah p.s Kom, Betty, Christine, Azita, Jack, O and others have all left this morning for Chengmai and the north today...more opportunities for awareness and understanding....and 'whipsering lobha'....Shakti has gone sounth and 'whispering lobha' hopes she'll add her report with the Manjushri sword reminders;-);-) ================================================================= 26367 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/26/03 7:12:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > If all consciousness is the same and there is no moment without > consciousness, how do we know consciousness is impermanent? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that if all consciousness were the same, then there would be just one eternal act of awareness, at least until the nibbana of those I think of as annihilationists! ;-)). I, however, don't think of all cittas as the same. Actually that's not quite properly stated. As I've said before, I don't consider cittas as entities at all, nor as separable, self-existent functions. I believe that the psychological reality is that of a sequence of acts of consciousness (actually, phassa) which consist of three aspects: knowing (vi~n~nana), known (arammana), and sense door activation (dvara), and together with each act of consciousness there co-occur concomitant features and operations (cetasika). There is no knowing except via a sense door activation, and there is no knowing without a known; there is no known without a knowing, and there is no known except via a sense door activation; and, there is no sense-door activation except in the context of, and as medium for, the knowing of some known. In addition, there are no concomitants (cetasikas) except as associated with an act of consciousness (phassa). We may analytically separate out the active sense door, the knowing, the known from each other, but they, in fact, do not occur except together, as aspects of an act of consciousness. Likewise for the cetasikas. Whenever there is a change in any aspect of an act of conscious, it is no longer the same act of consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > If we say, theoretically the change in cetasika or object signifies a > change in consciousness, what does change in consciousness mean if the > consciousness is the same? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Assume, for a moment, my perspective that the primary occurrence is the act of consciousness, with knowing, known, sense door, and concomitants being distinguishable but inseparable aspects of it. Now suppose there are two different acts of consciousness, act A and act B. Could the knowing aspect of A be identical with the knowing aspect of B? How could they be the same? If you own two cars, car A and car B, both colored red. Can the red paint of car A be the very same red paint as is on car B? Of course not. The function is the same, but the context is different. Corresponding aspects of different occurrences may *correspond*, but they are not the same. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ============================ With metta, Howard P.S. I wonder, Larry, whether this issue has any bearing on our Buddhist practice, and whether the answer is properly one way or the other what difference that makes with regard to our being one iota closer to liberation. (Actually, I, of course, don't really wonder about this at all. I'm quite certain that that this has no bearing whatsoever on our practice or our progress! /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26368 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, We had some exchange after that point, before you left for Bangkok and Myanmar. Please refer to this message http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26155 It is good that we have come to an accord in understanding that something in the phrase "or to something more peaceful than that" pertains to higher jhanas or higher level of samatha, but not insight/vipassana. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor [snip] 26369 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Howard: "P.S. I wonder, Larry, whether this issue has any bearing on our Buddhist practice, and whether the answer is properly one way or the other what difference that makes with regard to our being one iota closer to liberation. (Actually, I, of course, don't really wonder about this at all. I'm quite certain that that this has no bearing whatsoever on our practice or our progress!" Hi Howard, Actually it has great bearing on our understanding. I have been thinking about the sutta in which someone proposes that consciousness is self. [Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the sutta.] The Buddha gets very animated about this and practically accuses the fellow of heresy. If all consciousness is the same, how do we know experientially that consciousness is impermanent and therefore not self? I had thought the Buddha's solution was that each kind of consciousness is different IN ITSELF. Apparently, this is a wrong interpretation. Every consciousness is different only in its concomitants. I guess we have to take it on faith that consciousness and its concomitants are experientially indistinguishable. I think there may be some yogins who disagree with this. Larry ps: If consciousness and its concomitants are experientially indistinguishable, why do we conceptually distinguish them? Why not eliminate consciousness as a khandha? L. 26370 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar trip Hi - To all on or back from Myanmar trip, Enjoying all the pictures and posts/reports from Myanmar. Welcome back or safe trip home ! Metta, nori 26371 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/26/03 7:30:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ... > > Is your car painted green the same as "that" car painted > >red? The > >function is the same, but not the color. In a sense, do not the > >cetasikas and > >object of an act of awareness constitute the "coloration" of that > >act of > >awareness. The citta, its cetasikas, and its object are inseparable > >and co-conditioning. > > I'm not sure about 'inseparable'. Does this not tend to 'reify' the > citta/cetasika combination and its object? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't think so at all. An act of consciousness is a knowing of an object via an activated sense door. Neither the knowing, nor the known, nor the sense-door activation occur other than as aspects of an act of consciousness. But the act of consciousness, itself, is an event, an occurrence, arising only in dependence on its aspects of knowing, known, and sensory doorway, and in dependence on the coming together of earlier conditions, including sankhara, and, before that, avijja. So it is completely a fleeting, conditioned event, dependent on other equally empty phenomena. ------------------------------------------------------- While the 2 are mutually> > dependent at the very moment that the object is experienced, each > still has its own individual characteristic. As I understand it, at > a moment of, say, seeing, awareness could be aware of the seeing or > of the visible object, but not of a 'composite' of seeing-and-visible > object. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: A moment of seeing is an act of consciousness which is the knowing of a visible object via the eye door. There is no knowing of the entire act of seeing at that time, for that would involve a double object. But after the moment of seeing, there could follow an awareness of that just-passed moment of seeing. BTW, Jon, I'll ask you also: Do you find this discussion helping move you towards enlightenment? Or is it just a kind of psychological theorizing we are engaging in? (I think the latter!) ------------------------------------------------------- > > As to conditioning, there are many conditions applying at a given > 'dhamma' at a given moment, and not all of these concern the > relationship between the moment of consciousness and its object. It > helps to know of the other kinds of conditions at play also ;-)). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Helps for what? ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26372 From: Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/26/03 8:52:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "P.S. I wonder, Larry, whether this issue has any bearing on our > Buddhist practice, and whether the answer is properly one way or the > other what difference that makes with regard to our being one iota > closer to liberation. (Actually, I, of course, don't really wonder about > this at all. I'm quite certain that that this has no bearing whatsoever > on our practice or our progress!" > > Hi Howard, > > Actually it has great bearing on our understanding. I have been thinking > about the sutta in which someone proposes that consciousness is self. > [Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the sutta.] The Buddha gets > very animated about this and practically accuses the fellow of heresy. > If all consciousness is the same, how do we know experientially that > consciousness is impermanent and therefore not self? I had thought the > Buddha's solution was that each kind of consciousness is different IN > ITSELF. Apparently, this is a wrong interpretation. Every consciousness > is different only in its concomitants. I guess we have to take it on > faith that consciousness and its concomitants are experientially > indistinguishable. I think there may be some yogins who disagree with > this. > > Larry > > ps: If consciousness and its concomitants are experientially > indistinguishable, why do we conceptually distinguish them? Why not > eliminate consciousness as a khandha? L. > > ============================== They are distinguishable, but not separable. It's rather like the inside and outside of a box, Larry. Of the box, it's inside, and it's outside, the box is the primary with inside and outside being aspects of it, and all three are distinguishable, but interdependent and inseparable. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26373 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:58pm Subject: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi Nina and dsg group, I've just been reading "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" and have a question regarding ch. 21 - Samatha. What meditation subject have you found most successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. I was surprised to read this because it seems that mindfulness of breathing is the most commonly practiced meditative object, or am I wrong in this understanding. Bye for now Julie (officially de-lurked!- Oh the relief!) 26374 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear Dharam, (and Robert and Nina), I have finally caught up with this thread and am ready to butt in. ;- ) Robert, thanks so much for your reminder about conceit. I am inspired to see that you can be so objective about it. When someone says that I am conceited, that itself usually conditions many moments of conceit; self-consciousness. One of the reasons I think, is that the word `conceit' in normal everyday use carries with it a sense of moral judgment and it causes in me a reaction. But `mana' is more common than we know and exists on many levels. It is good to know however, that conceit is only fully eradicated at the level of arahattaship. We do not then have unrealistic expectations. In Myanmar, the topic on mana came up a few times, and one of the things we were reminded about was that it manifested on subtle levels, ones we would never recognize had a wise friend not pointed it out to us. For example, when we make a judgement about say, someone's clothing or even a wall painting, the implication is that `*we* could have done better!' But I guess this will go on for aeons in the future since the kilesas are still so thick, so no need to think too much about this. The point is to continue be reminded about these things without any need to "do" anything to reduce them. That endeavour would be self- defeating. Dharam, I found Nina's response to you excellent and to the point, when she said; > N: I can understand that you wonder about this, it seems so dogmatic that there is only one way. However, the Buddha spoke in the satipatthana sutta about the one and only way. There is such and such practice, the eightfold Path and it leads to the end of defilements, to nibbana. But let everybody find out for himself whether the development of the Path is the way to get closer to the goal, very gradually.< But perhaps the impression is only from the standpoint of being an `insider'. I find myself to be gradually drawn away from the tendency to suggest other people to `test it out for themselves', considering the fact that they may have no inclination to do so. Besides, we very much stress here, the connection between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, so in a sense it is only if someone sees it for himself `intellectually' the validity and truth of the Buddha's teachings, will there be any condition for the `practice' to take place. In which case saying `test it out' will be more a reminder than an advice. Also though you consider `conceit' a major obstacle to understanding and receptivity of other's thoughts, I personally think `attachment to views' to be particularly nasty. This does not point to any doubt in me, with regard to the Teachings themselves, but the fact that I tend to `throw my views at the other person'. Anyway this too can be known. But we *can* discuss and try to sort out our thoughts, and because `reasoning' appeals to most humans regardless of faith, doing so can bring all concerned some good, I think. So Dharam, when Robert asked you if there were any teachers who you considered as teaching the same thing as the Buddha, what I understood was that he wanted to discuss if indeed what they taught could lead to the same goal. It is not enough for me to *state* that they all point to the same goal, there is absolutely no reason for me to believe this to be the case. What are your own reasons to believe so? Also is your believing so the cause for then `disregarding' the means to achieving it, and coming to the following conclusion? >Dharam: It is the destination, NOT the path, NOR the guide, that is of the ultimate importance. If we focus on that, we may become much less attached to the path, the guide, or ourselves. They then become what they always were - practical necessities for the journey - nothing more, nothing less.< I think this is a big mistake. It conditions irrationality and blind faith, though it may sound like open-mindedness. Open-mindedness requires more than a `belief' that all paths are equally valid. It is mindfulness and wisdom of the arising reality in this very moment. Truthfulness is *knowing* what really is going on. Attachment to `path', `guide' and `self' is definitely not good, but to conclude that "They then become what they always were - practical necessities for the journey - nothing more, nothing less", is I believe a form of conceit conditioned by "wrong understanding" of the way things are. *This* I believe is a greater obstacle. To downplay the role of the teachings and consequently the teacher as being only "practical necessities" is to risk falling prey to one's own ignorance and tendency to clinging and conceit. So as Robert has pointed out, `self' can rule anywhere, anytime, both here and there. I think it wiser to consider causes, and not to think too much about results, except in their relation to the cause. Otherwise results are just projections, whereas causes can be known here and now. We first read about them and understand them intellectually, and then there may be conditions to actually see how they manifest and possibility of what they lead to. However, at no time is it necessary to dwell upon the result, it will only condition an `attachment to self'. Realities arise and fall in an instant, only `ideas' about them can be held on to, and these are not real. Dharam, in my own case, it is considering causes and not results, which is the basis of my confidence in the Buddha's wisdom. Were it the `goal' that my mind fixed upon, with this level of understanding, I would more likely end up blindly seeking `shortcuts' and be impressed by any Lao, Shankara or Jesus. And had I not come across the Buddha's teachings, I would most probably be saying the same thing as you are saying today, and not only would I be `worshiping' one of these people, I would have tried to study as much as I can from all of them. But I am glad today, that I do not have to carry such a burden. :-) The Buddha's teaching point to the reality of this moment which none of us can deny without falling into contradiction. The basis for confidence arises from just "not looking away". Other teachings demand blind faith. They posit as real, that which is unverifiable. This is so *unfair* to the believer (Sorry to be so frank here). You will probably have seen that even here amongst so called Buddhists, there is stressing the importance of distinguishing between concept and reality. Even the concept of `meditation' can be an obstacle to direct understanding of realities. There is no world beyond this moment, but none of us is enlightened to see this as "fact". But how much we accept this `intellectually' is I believe the mark of understanding of the way things are. The more we believe in the existence of things unverifiable and ignore the realities that arise here and now in this moment; the more we are fixed on the results, regardless, and ignore the cause, I think we risk being drawn further into wrong thinking and wrong practices. Hope you are not offended by my frankness, blame it on conditions one of which is `lack of firm understanding'. ;-) Metta, Sukin. Ps: I never consider myself a Buddhist, except conventionally, and that too only to show the other person my priorities. I think, again only conventionally, that it requires more than my present level of understanding to be firm in taking "refuge" in the Triple Gem. However, I would like to think that anyone is a true Buddhist when he is treading the Middle Way, which is the moment of Satipatthana. In which case, one could say that being a Buddhist is just one moment of arising and falling away. With this attitude, there is no room for `fundamentalism' as far as Buddha's teachings are concerned. Fundamentalism exists only when one is stuck on `belief'. ;-) 26375 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:22am Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: > Hi Nina and dsg group, > > I've just been reading "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" and have a question > regarding ch. 21 - Samatha. What meditation subject have you found most > successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, > which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. I > was surprised to read this because it seems that mindfulness of breathing is > the most commonly practiced meditative object, or am I wrong in this > understanding. > > Bye for now > Julie > (officially de-lurked!- Oh the relief!) Hi Julie, I think that it is misleading to say that the breath is the most difficult object for meditation, for everyone. For some people it is going to be very difficult and for others it isn't going to be as difficult…we are all different. Not only that, at different times in your life the difficulty/non-difficulty of the breath as a meditation object is going to change…because we don't stay the same. For example, when I first started to meditate, some 20 odd years ago, I used the breath as my focus of meditation. It worked very well for me then. However, now I don't use the breath as much for deeper meditation, I use the element of fire (a candle), mindfulness of death, and the recollection of peace. My disposition has changed and so has my meditation. I have become more intellectual about the dhamma than in the past so these different meditations suit me more. If I had kept beginner's mind (oh, wonderful beginner's mind!) the breath would be sufficient…now it isn't, at least for me. These are just some suggestions. Use them as you see fit. If you would like to read more about the different objects of meditation and their appropriateness for different temperaments, you can at this link: http://www.palikanon.com/english/the_jhanas/jhanas02.htm Hope this helps you some. Metta, James Ps. Glad to see you come out of lurking! I love those posts without Pali! ;-) 26376 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 5:01am Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" < , some 20 odd years ago, I > used the breath as my focus of meditation. Oops, I just re-did the math and this should read 'some 15 odd years ago'...I'm not that old. ;-) (but soon enough...). Metta, James 26377 From: Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi, Julie - In a message dated 10/27/03 3:11:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, julie_and_steve@b... writes: > What meditation subject have you found most > successful in the development of calm? ============================ I think that James' reply to the effect that what is most suitable is an individual matter is quite correct. For development in the direction of the jhanas, I have done "okay" with the breath, but much better using a mentally recited sound [manta (Pali) /mantra (Sanskrit)]. A mantra works well for me, because I have an affinity for sound. (I'm musically inclined, and, for example, I always, automatically, center my language learning around the sound-system more than the syntax.] If, on the other hand, you are visually inclined, you might try fire or light, or make a colored (or white) disk (kasina) to use as visual meditation object. On the other hand, some people do well using so-called metta meditation for this purpose. Some experimentation (and introspection) may be in order. Should you choose to use the breath, the way it is used for development of calm is a bit different from how it is used for cultivation of insight. For development of calm, attend not so much to the detailed aspects of the breath, but rather to the overall in-out flowing of the breath, allowing oneself to so-to-speak be carried along by the breath as one would be carried along by a current in a very buoyant stream, and let the mind become aware of and enjoy the pleasant bodily feelings that develop during the meditation, at some point even switching your attention over to that pleasure. (But don't look for or anticipate anything in particular happening - just keep on with the attention.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26378 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re: nibbana: To Sukin Dear Sukin, Dharam, Robert-s, Nina, Mike and all How are you? Sukin, I found your post to be well thought through. And your hesitance to consider yourself to be a Buddhist is also found to be an understatement. I would call anyone who likes the idea of turning away from Samsaara a Buddhist. All forms of theists, be they Vedists / Vedantists (including Vedantic Buddhists), Judaists, Christians or Muslims, could not dare to go beyond personhood (God as the Last Person), thereby remaining stuck in Samsaara. You seem to be courageous enough to stand on existential impermanence, appearing and disappearing on the spot with no room left for self or personhood. This type of courage can be found only in the followers of Gotama the Buddha. With regards, Suan PS... Thank you for the photos from Myanmar trip http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Dear Dharam, (and Robert and Nina), > > I have finally caught up with this thread and am ready to butt in. ;- > ) 26379 From: bodhi342 Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: Nibbana Dear RobertK, We are mainly in agreement. I also believe the Buddha was a unique and Fully Enlightened Teacher. His path to Nibbana is a remarkable gift given to mankind. It is that other qualification that some insist on adding - "Only" - where the pitfall of conceit may be manifesting. Conceit indeed seems to be a very common mental factor, and we humans usually shy away from identifying it in ourselves, except at the most mundane and pain-free levels. We develop sophisticated defences to avoid honest examination. Community or collective, conceit is an equal opportunity affliction - not sparing any particular group. This is not specific to Buddhists, and I am not aware of any other group free of it. It is closely related to the identity confusion of superior/inferior self, and its extensions. Completely agree with what you wrote: "However the teaching stress over and over that any attachment, including to the Buddha or Dhamma is not wisdom and is actually harmful. Thus potentially one can learn to see this danger." We seem to be agreed that either exclusive views ('only my own religion leads'), or rejectionist ones ('no religions lead') about a path to enlightenment ......... can be manifestations of conceit. How do you think allowing for "all or many religions are essentially teaching the same thing" - is also a manifestation of conceit? Is it not a tolerant alternative, a middle option, allowing for possibilities that we cannot fairly evaluate, and therefore justifiably reject. Could it be that others speak about the same ultimate reality, in similar but slightly different terms? Can we justify rejection based on our limited understanding of the differences, yet wilfully ignore the striking similarities? Essentially, can we justify such emotional rejection, when it is not necessary for us to vigorously pursue our own path? "Thus it is always the moment, what element is arising now, that awareness can know as it is. Only in this way can the actual characteristic of each different element be known. If conceit is seen in the present moment its ugly nature can be seen." Yes. It is clinging to contemporary conceit - in this moment or generally present - that we have to clearly identify, understand and hopefully relinquish. Thanks for a stimulating conversation, RobertK. metta, dharam 26380 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar trip, whispering lobha Dear Sarah and all, delighted with the airport letters of both of you. I can imagine you both sitting at the computers. And as Azita said, you marked shopping time for dhamma time. I could imagine this! As usual a very good opportunity. Kom and other Chengmai going friends, have compassion on me, and tell me about where you went and what you discussed with whom! Kom, could you find out about the difficult phrase: thy aw? But I post the issue on sotapannas anyway, with dots. The main thing is to know that there are conditions for different types of sotapanna. In the Dhamma there is room for all types of people with different kinds of accumulations. The panna of the sotapanna who has seven rebirths is not as strong as the panna of sotapannas with six or only one rebirth. I find it helpful to know that a sotapanna can cling to all the pleasant things, cling to life in the cycle, but panna goes across all such moments and in the end he attains arahatship. We read in the Dispeller of Delusion: Thus, even a sotapanna may live in negligence. I am impressed, we see that wisdom works its way. Panna can become a power, bala, it can arise in the midst of negligence and attachment. It shows that vipassana is very natural. But of course, once the person who became a sotapanna had to begin. It teaches us, though, not to try to change our natural inclinations, but rather, to understand them. This is very comforting, we do not need to despair. <...even if he lives in all negligence, his insight knowledge comes to ripen> we read. There were also conditions for courage and energy. All the perfections have been accumulated. There are many intricate conditions working in our lives, and this explains why there are periods of slackness, doubt, despair, and also moments of courage and energy for the development of panna. It is important to understand that all those moments are conditioned. But good friends are very important for the development of panna. That is why such a trip as to Myanmar boosts one's confidence. Nina. P.S. Sarah, you need to settle down first, I hope your knee is better. Later on I would like to hear more details of the discussions, please. op 27-10-2003 01:51 schreef abbott_hk op abbott_hk@y...: > p.s Kom, Betty, Christine, Azita, Jack, O and others have all left > this morning for Chengmai and the north today... 26381 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member profile. Hi Jerdjun, Welcome to this list. Do tell us more about your study with A. Sujin, were you in Bgk? And do you belong to Jack's group in Fresno? What are your discussions like? In India I met a doctor from Fresno and his wife who is from the Philipines and a catholic. But he left the group, I think. You must know Kh O and her husband too, I think. Hoping to hear from you, Nina. op 26-10-2003 15:41 schreef Jerdjun op sutee110@y...: I live in Fresno, California. My husband, > Sutee, and I own a Thai resteurant in Fresno, and we have been > studing with Ajan Sujin for 5 years... > 26382 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:05am Subject: Tiika texts Dear Larry, I wait a little about my reaction to your letter, so engrossed with the natural root language. Connie is so kind to help me now with the following Tiika texts, and she is also doing them in the Velthuys spelling. The Tipitaka org stopped, you know. I also downloaded from the files the Vis text in Pali Jim gave us. I went to another web with iMac tool and then they give you half the Abh (enormous), but no Co. The tool worked after I had some trouble but my computer did not like so much stuff. Nina. 26383 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > This view of > consciousness as being all the same is very compatible with the > Vedanta. Surprising! I have heard the term "Vedanta" a few times but don't know what it is. Please educate me. Thanks. Metta, Rob M :-) 26384 From: robmoult Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:56pm Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi Julie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: > What meditation subject have you found most > successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, > which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. James and Howard have given some excellent points. Each of us has our own accumulations and as James points out, these can change over time. Another approach to choosing a mediation object is to note the defilement that gives you the most trouble. If you have a problem with desire, you might try meditating on impermanence. If you have a problem with ill will, metta meditation may be your answer. If you are often overcome by dullness or drowsiness, you may need an "active" object such as light or walking meditation. Breathing is suggested for those who suffer from restless and worry (most beginners fall into this class). If the "defilement du jour" is doubt, then study and reflection rather than meditation may be useful at this stage. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 26385 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 5:52pm Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi Julie, As I see it, every meditation practice taught by the Buddha is beneficial. I have not found in the discourses that the Buddha claimed one meditation practice is easier or more difficult than the other. I don't think that whether mindfulness of breathing is difficult or not is really an issue in the actual practice. I think what is more important is if one perseveres in practicing, be it mindfulness of breathing, Brahmavihara, or other meditation practice taught by the Buddha. I see that success, or rather, progress in meditation comes from practicing. If you practice and develop the mindfulness of breathing, you will benefit from your practice. Likewise for Brahmavihara or any other meditation practice taught by the Buddha. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: > Hi Nina and dsg group, [snip] 26386 From: Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma: Slide 39 - 40 for comment Hi Rob, Here's a link re. "pure awareness" in the Vedanta tradition: http://www.self-realization.com/self.htm Larry ------------------ Rob: Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: This view of consciousness as being all the same is very compatible with the Vedanta. Surprising! I have heard the term "Vedanta" a few times but don't know what it is. Please educate me. Thanks. Metta, Rob M :-) 26387 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:56pm Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi Julie, Congratulations on your de-lurking. You haven't actually said why you want to meditate. Has anything in "ADL" given you the impression it is necessary for practising the Buddha's teaching, satipatthana? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Julie, Steve and Kevin" wrote: > Hi Nina and dsg group, > > I've just been reading "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" and have a question > regarding ch. 21 - Samatha. What meditation subject have you found most > successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, > which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. I > was surprised to read this because it seems that mindfulness of breathing is > the most commonly practiced meditative object, or am I wrong in this > understanding. > > Bye for now > Julie > (officially de-lurked!- Oh the relief!) 26388 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 0:48am Subject: Mana (conceit) and photo album Hi Dharam, Good to read your posts again and careful considerations;-) --- bodhi342 wrote: > Dear RobertK, > Conceit indeed seems to be a very common mental factor, and we humans > usually shy away from identifying it in ourselves, except at the most > mundane and pain-free levels. We develop sophisticated defences to > avoid honest examination. .... You make many good points and as you remind us here, no one sees the mana arising most the time (even Buddhists;-)). Unless we're arahants, 'no matter how much metta there is, there's still mana' as we were reminded on the trip. We also discussed how 'trying to know it' is not the same as understanding its quality when it arises at any time - looking at our finger nails or a picture (as Sukin mentioned), living alone without any comparing necessarily at all. Layers and layers of mana that are never known unless wisdom and awareness develops. We may think we can detect it easily in others, but this is just thinking about it and usually we have no idea about the mana arising when we think about it even now. K.Sujin mentioned its 'harsh' nature and I'm just reflecting on this. Thank you again for your comments and useful discussions with Robert, Nina and Sukin. Metta, Sarah p.s Sukin, thx for sharing your pics w/their witty captions;-)- we'll probably leave them there for a couple of weeks for everyone to see and then reluctantly have to start some culling in the album as we're almost at our limit. Newbies, to view pics of members, go to: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst Pls add a pic to the album of members (James, Kom or Chris will help if you have technical probs). Ross, I look f/w to your climbing meditation pic too;-) Derek, thanks for sharing yours. ========================================== 26389 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 0:59am Subject: The lesser evil? Dear Manu, --- Manu Wadhwani wrote: > The above example seems to suggest that a lay Buddhist would accumulate > less > bad kamma when he drinks alcohol as compared to someone else just > because > the lay Buddhist knows in advance that it is wrong to drink. ..... I’m always glad to see you posting and I understand what you’re saying. These are all good points. Actually, there many not be any bad kamma at this moment of drinking alcohol. Cittas (consciousness) are so complicated and other factors such as wise reflection, restraint and shame of wrong-doing may be key factors. Complete ignorance and wrong view about the nature and possible effects of kilesa (defilements) are most dangerous, I think. Metta, Sarah p.s Hoping you and anyone else will be able to join us in Bangkok end Jun/Beg Feb ========= 26390 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 0:57am Subject: RE: [dsg] :"abhidhamma in daily life" - Ken Hi Ken, Ken wrote: Congratulations on your de-lurking. You haven't actually said why you want to meditate. Has anything in "ADL" given you the impression it is necessary for practising the Buddha's teaching, satipatthana? Julie: I'm still pretty new at this game and haven't really explored whether or not meditation is a necessary component of practising Buddhism. I've been following the discussion regarding this on dsg with interest. See Ya Julie 26391 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana A Nama? Hi Vijita (Teoh), I think this was your first message and appreciate your reminders about not having expectations or trying to persuade anyone in any particular course of action/non-action. --- teoh chee keam wrote: > Hi Ken, Howard & all, > > Let's not be passive. Whoever sow a good seed cultivate a > good harvest. I, myself a meditator never discourage anyone not to > meditate or persuade anyone to do so, against his freewill. So as not to > develop akusala kamma due to the undesireable action even we have good > intention towards the deliverance of other puthujjana. .... I think there are many definitions of meditation used here;-) I hope you and Ken H and others will continue your discussions. I'd be glad if you would tell us a little more about yourself and your understanding. Where do you live? (Malaysia??). I see you're very familiar with the Pali terms. You and other new members may also find it helpful to use the back-up posts on escribe for searches and threads: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Also, a very small percentage of posts from the archives have been put under subject headings at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ====== 26392 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] A new member profile. Hi Jerdjun, Thankyou also for intrducing yourself - like Jon, I enjoyed meeting friends from California (old and new) on our trip to Burma... I'm sure you're being very modest and look forward to any contributions you care to share with us;-) --- Jerdjun wrote: > Hi, I am new to the group. I live in Fresno, California. My husband, > Sutee, and I own a Thai resteurant in Fresno, and we have been > studing with Ajan Sujin for 5 years, but my knowledge about damma is > very little. Not much for me to say because I am shy, and I want to keep ..... Also, Lynn, thanks for introducing yourself and group in Victoria and for your qus on ADL. Look forward to reading more discussion between you, Nina and others. I hope I have this right when I say Julie is from Melbourne too. Jon's from Adelaide and we lived there briefly before Hong Kong. ..... And Sugiarto, thanks for your intro as well. Your English is fine and we look forward to hearing from you. Hope all's peaceful in Jakarta these days. There are quite a few members from Jakarta and elsewhere in Indonesia now. ..... For any newbies who are new to the list and new to the dhamma (not any of the above, I'm sure), you may find it useful to look at subjects 'New to the list and New to the Dhamma' and 'Abhidhamma -beginners' in U.P>: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Also there is a very simple Pali glossary at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms This Pali dictionary may also be helpful: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html Metta, Sarah ====== 26393 From: Sugiarto Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:50am Subject: MARA... ???? Hi, This my first questions for DSG . Very simple but confuse me to explaning to whom asking. Who is MARA ? Someone told me that He's an Evil's God / Satan , someone told me that It's our Evil's Mind. What the exactly he is ? And Please give me the references, what suttas that can explains who / what it is? NB: Apologize for my english . Correct me if i have mistakes. Mettacittena, S.L 26394 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member intro Hi Ross, --- Ross Barlow wrote: > Hello, everyone. > > I am new to this list and know that I can learn much from all of > you. I am looking forward to reading what you folks have to say. I > will probably not post much, except for occasional questions. I will > mainly look, lurk, and learn. ... Thanks so much for your detailed intro....hope you look, lurk, learn and post too;-) I'm sure you have plenty to contribute. .... > I am a 53 year old high school teacher (history and philosophy) from > northwestern Pennsylvania. My first introduction to Buddhism was an > encounter with Beatnik Zen in my youth in the 1960s, which has always > fit well with my love of mountaineering and being in wild places. I > have, in recent years, been interested more and more in the Theravadin > tradition, which is having a tremendous impact on my life. > > Thanks to Howard for telling me of this group. .... Thanks to Howard too;-) I've just looked at your link and varied interests and quotes. Now I know you'll have plenty to add here. Nice pic. Looking forward to hearing more about the impact of the Theravadin tradition on your life if you can add a little more detail and about mountain climbing meditation too. We love hiking, as do Nina and her husband, RobertK as well..... unfortunately I keep getting injured and end up with hobbling meditation instead;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Larry, I forget now, do you live in Penn too? =============================================== 26395 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: slow-witted Hi Thomas, --- nordwest wrote: > I would like to mention, that for me Victor posting was a very important > reminder, that even "social humbleness" can be an evil deed, if it is > not based on reality, but a mere lie. At least, this was how I > understood it. ..... Welcome to DSG from me too. Where do you live (or did I miss it?)? It's an interesting point you mention here - I think it very much depends on the intention and this can easily be misunderstood by different cultures. I usually appreciate self-deprecating comments or modesty as indications of not attaching importance to compliments or clinging to self. I think we just have to understand our own mental states when they arise in this regard. As you suggest, there can be false modesty, another kind of conceit as well. Look forward to more of your contributions and comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 26396 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] :"abhidhamma in daily life" Thanks everyone for your fantastic responses. Much appreciated!!!! See ya Julie 26397 From: Sarah Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] MARA... ???? Hi Sugiarto, --- Sugiarto wrote: > Hi, > This my first questions for DSG . > Very simple but confuse me to explaning to whom asking. > Who is MARA ? > Someone told me that He's an Evil's God / Satan , > someone told me that It's our Evil's Mind. > What the exactly he is ? And Please give me the references, what suttas > that can explains who / what it is? ... Very good questions. I've always found the subject of Mara difficult too. I think you'll find it useful to read the following posts by Nina, Bhikkhu Bodhi and Christine. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16439 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16799 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17371 .... > NB: Apologize for my english . Correct me if i have mistakes. ... Not at all. No need to apologize - we all make plenty of mistakes (even us native speakers of English;-( ). Let us know if you have further comments or questions when you've looked at these posts. Others may have further contributions to make as well. Metta, Sarah ====== 26398 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar trip --- norakat147 wrote: > Hi - To all on or back from Myanmar trip, > > Enjoying all the pictures and posts/reports from Myanmar. > > Welcome back or safe trip home ! > > > Metta, > > nori Thanks, Nori. It's good to be back! Jon 26399 From: monomuni Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:55am Subject: Awareness (Sati) Friends: Awareness of What ? Awareness is the prime advantage! Awareness is the chief of good states! But Awareness of What ? Friends, there are these 4 Foundations of Awareness! What four ? First, the Clever One, remains reflecting on the Body … as just an assembly; a formed cluster of mere matter! One considers this form, to be a construction liable to ageing. One understands, comprehends & fully realizes That: This ‘bio-robot’ is neither lasting, nor to be kept as owned. This ‘painted flesh doll’ is often afflicted, in pain & inevitably dies. These material qualities is neither ‘I-nor-Me’ nor ‘Mine-nor-Self’. In this way the Clever One puts away any obsession & fear rooted in this Body and thus remains just calm yet alert, fully aware & clearly conscious … Secondly, the Intelligent One, remains reflecting on the Feeling … as just a mere passing mental response to contact, born of contact. One considers pleasure, pain & indifference to be momentary mental constructs, liable to immediate fading & instantaneous vanishing. One understands, comprehends & fully realizes That: This shifting gladness & sadness is neither lasting, nor to be kept as owned. These always changing emotions therefore always are frustrating. These affective mental labels are neither ‘I-nor-Me-nor-Mine-nor-Self’. In this way the Intelligent One sets aside any attraction & repulsion rooted in these feelings & thus remains just calm yet alert, fully aware & clearly conscious … Thirdly, the Wise One, remains reflecting on the Mind … as mere ever changing, jumping, variable & labile Moods. One considers all mentality to be a formed construction liable to abrupt disappearance. One understands, comprehends & fully realizes That: This Mind is nothing but a series of momentary mental qualities, neither lasting, nor to be kept as owned, endowed with or possessed of. This Mind, mentality or moods therefore also all are dissatisfactory. This momentary Mind neither are ‘I-nor-Me-nor-Mine-nor-any-Self’... In this way the Wise One reduces any greed & hate rooted in this Mind & thus remains just calm yet alert, fully aware & clearly conscious … Finally, the Noble One, remains reflecting on all phenomena as just changing mental states, mental representations, imaging … One considers all phenomena; both physical & mental, both material & immaterial, both internal & external, both present & future to be mere mental projections, mere mental imprints, mere experience, created by conditions, flickering, fluctuating & passing by, liable to immediate decay … One understands, comprehends & fully realizes That: All phenomena, all states of this world are indeed transient & neither lasting nor to be kept as owned … All phenomena, all states of this world are disappointing & painful. All phenomena, definitely, neither are any ‘I-nor-Me-nor-Mine-nor-Self’. In this way the Noble one eliminates any desire & disgust rooted in this entire World & thus remains just calm yet alert, fully aware & clearly conscious … The 7 Milestones: Such one realizes that body, feeling, mind & all phenomena are indeed transient & not lasting … Such one realizes that body, feeling, mind & all phenomena are indeed painful & not pleasant … Such one realizes that body, feeling, mind & all phenomena are indeed impersonal & not a ‘Self’ nor a ‘Soul’ nor ‘I-Me-Ego-Mine’ … Gradually such one becomes first bored, then disgusted & do not enjoy. Gradually such one becomes disillusioned & do not inflame any lust. Gradually such one ceases activities & do initiate or take up new ones. Gradually such one let go & does not cling to anything of this world... While reflecting on transience, one eliminates the deceptive perception of permanence … While reflecting on misery, one eliminates the deceptive perception of pleasure … While reflecting on impersonality, one eliminates the deceptive perception of identity … While disgusted, one eliminates the addiction connected with delight … While ceasing, one eliminates the agitation connected with initiation … While letting go, one eliminates the bondage connected with clinging … While thus relinquishing any form, feeling, mentality & phenomena, Such Noble One is utterly, irreversibly & perfectly Freed !!! ... This, only this, is the deathlessness of Nibbana ... Yeah !!! --oo0oo-- Source: Samyutta Nikaya V 75 Patisambhidamagga XXVIII Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] Friendship is truly GREATEST; For Gladdening of Good People. Goodwill Motivates all Noble Life! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct Easy subscription by sending an email to: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Should a person perform a meritorious action, he should do it again and again; he should find pleasure therein: blissful is the accumulation of merit. Random Dhammapada Verse 118