26400 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life" Hi again, Julie - In a message dated 10/28/03 12:57:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Julie, > > Congratulations on your de-lurking. > You haven't actually said why you want to meditate. Has > anything in "ADL" given you the impression it is necessary > for practising the Buddha's teaching, satipatthana? > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================= I'm just writing, Julie, to make you aware that a number of members of this list, Ken H among them, believe that meditating is avoidable, or even best avoided! As you may realize from other responses you've received, that is not the opinion of all the members, a number of us believing that meditation is a basic and essential part of the Buddha's teaching. What is certain is that within the world-wide community of Buddhism, this latter, pro-meditation perspective, is the norm, certainly in point-of-view, if not always in practice. With metta, and encouragement to meditate, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26401 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] new member intro Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/28/03 5:23:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes to Ross: > We love hiking, as do Nina and her > husband, RobertK as well. =========================== Ahh, the ambiguity of language! Lodewijk must have been surprised by this information!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26402 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:10am Subject: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi, all - I draw your attention to the following material from the Satipatthana Sutta. The very first of these items is formal sitting meditation, and the subsequent ones begin with "Furthermore": ____________________________________ "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [3] "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [4] "Furthermore...just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain -- wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice -- and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [5] "Furthermore...just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. [6] "Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground -- one day, two days, three days dead -- bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... "Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions -- here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a chest bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26403 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:04am Subject: More of the Buddha's Recommendations to Meditate Hi, all - [From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn053.html] "And how is the disciple of the noble ones devoted to wakefulness? There is the case where a monk during the day, sitting & pacing back & forth, cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the first watch of the night [dusk to 10 p.m.], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the second watch of the night [10 p.m. to 2 a.m.], reclining on his right side, he takes up the lion's posture, one foot placed on top of the other, mindful, alert, with his mind set on getting up [either as soon as he awakens or at a particular time]. During the last watch of the night [2 a.m. to dawn], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. This is how the monk is devoted to wakefulness. (Howard's note:What do you suppose is meant by "sitting & pacing back & forth"? ;-) ***************************************************************************** [From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-030.html] "'This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. 'This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. ************************************************************ [From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/cgi/search/search.pl?Realm=&Match=0& Terms=jhanas&maxhits=10&Rank=21] Too much, all worthwhile, to quote here. All I shall quote is the multiply repeated advice towards formal meditation that is the following: Herein, Ananda, a monk having gone to the forest or to the foot of a tree or to an empty house (lonely place) contemplates thus: ******************************************************** [And, finally, from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn12.html] (Abandoning the Hindrances)"Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness & alertness, and this noble contentment, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a wilderness, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a forest grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. "Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will & anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will & anger. Abandoning sloth & drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth & drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth & drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness & anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness & anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty. "Suppose that a man, taking a loan, invests it in his business affairs. His business affairs succeed. He repays his old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining his wife. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, taking a loan, I invested it in my business affairs. Now my business affairs have succeeded. I have repaid my old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining my wife.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man falls sick -- in pain & seriously ill. He does not enjoy his meals, and there is no strength in his body. As time passes, he eventually recovers from that sickness. He enjoys his meals and there is strength in his body. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was sick... Now I am recovered from that sickness. I enjoy my meals and there is strength in my body.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man is bound in prison. As time passes, he eventually is released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was bound in prison. Now I am released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man is a slave, subject to others, not subject to himself, unable to go where he likes. As time passes, he eventually is released from that slavery, subject to himself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where he likes. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was a slave... Now I am released from that slavery, subject to myself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where I like.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "Now suppose that a man, carrying money & goods, is traveling by a road through desolate country. As time passes, he eventually emerges from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, carrying money & goods, I was traveling by a road through desolate country. Now I have emerged from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy & happiness. "In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated. (The Four Jhanas)"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder -- saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. When a disciple of a teacher attains this sort of grand distinction, Lohicca, that is a teacher not worthy of criticism in the world, and if anyone were to criticize this sort of teacher, the criticism would be false, unfactual, unrighteous, & blameworthy. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time & again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate & pervade, suffuse & fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born of composure. When a disciple of a teacher attains this sort of grand distinction, Lohicca, that is a teacher not worthy of criticism in the world, and if anyone were to criticize this sort of teacher, the criticism would be false, unfactual, unrighteous, & blameworthy. "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born & growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated & pervaded, suffused & filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. When a disciple of a teacher attains this sort of grand distinction, Lohicca, that is a teacher not worthy of criticism in the world, and if anyone were to criticize this sort of teacher, the criticism would be false, unfactual, unrighteous, & blameworthy. "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. When a disciple of a teacher attains this sort of grand distinction, Lohicca, that is a teacher not worthy of criticism in the world, and if anyone were to criticize this sort of teacher, the criticism would be false, unfactual, unrighteous, & blameworthy. (Insight Knowledge)"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge & vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, & dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' Just as if there were a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water -- eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects, and going through the middle of it was a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread -- and a man with good eyesight, taking it in his hand, were to reflect on it thus: 'This is a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water, eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects. And this, going through the middle of it, is a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, purified, & bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability -- the monk directs & inclines it to knowledge & vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, & dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' When a disciple of a teacher attains this sort of grand distinction, Lohicca, that is a teacher not worthy of criticism in the world, and if anyone were to criticize this sort of teacher, the criticism would be false, unfactual, unrighteous, & blameworthy. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26404 From: bodhi342 Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Dear Sukin and Sarah, Good to see you back, and apparently refreshed. I returned to respond to a message from Htoo, posted by RobertK, answered by Nina, forwarded by a friend. A little bit of forgotten unfinished business from February. I don't know if you had a chance to follow the thread all the way back, but there are some simple questions about Nibbana, that ought to be addressed. At least if we are interested in exploring the issue of exclusivity. I sense reluctance to do so, and an impulse to to divert to more familiar territory. Let me know if this is truly the case - you know I do not have an axe to grind. ;-) [Conceit is an assumption about the mental factor that insists on exclusivity, and is more of a side-issue.] metta, dharam 26405 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Hi Julie. Are the three of you reading together ADL ? I appreciate your interest, questions always welcome. op 27-10-2003 08:58 schreef Julie, Steve and Kevin op julie_and_steve@b...: > regarding ch. 21 - Samatha. What meditation subject have you found most > successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, > which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. I > was surprised to read this because it seems that mindfulness of breathing is > the most commonly practiced meditative object, or am I wrong in this > understanding. N: You will see that I quote the Visuddhimagga, an encyclopedia written by the great Commentator Buddhaghosa. I am interested to study the Tipitaka and the ancient commentaries. Modern teachers have different ideas, but these are not my field of interest. The Visuddhimagga warns not to take breath lightly, it shows how subtle this subject is. It is a rupa conditioned by citta and it appears as hard, soft, hot, cold, motion or pressure, at the nosetip or upperlip. What type of citta conditions it? Great understanding and mindfulness are necessary, it states. Understanding: this arises with kusala citta. Cittas change so rapidly, then lobha, then kusala citta. These different moments have to be known, otherwise one develops lobha instead of panna. When we read in the suttas that the Buddha spoke about mindfulness of breathing, we have to study: to whom is this sutta addressed? To monks who had the potentials for arahatship? Some people believe that Buddhaghosa manipulated the scriptures, that he was wrong. But we can see for ourselves how conscientiously he describes all the meditation subjects. They are helpful, good for reflection. He would not gain anything by changing the teachings or by downplaying samatha. The Buddha's teachings are in the suttas, but we may overlook important points. Just like the other day: it is good Victor gave us the text: something more peaceful than that, and Steve gave the Co: also the four Paths are more peaceful: quote: And actually, the highest calm is in the sutta, but we have to read on to the end. Buddhaghosa merely elaborates on what is in the sutta, but sometimes the sutta is very compact. Samatha is taught also by other teachers, but the development of insight is specifically the Buddha's teaching. It is all in the suttas, and Buddhaghosa helps us not to overlook this, in reminding us all the time of the five aggregates, the elements, the sensefields. Coming back to meditation. There are subjects suitable for every occasion, any time, any place: the Triple Gem, metta, death, foulness of the body. Reflection on these can arise spontaneously, without trying to make it arise. I am becoming older, friends who are my age go, one after the other. We receive many announcements of death and then it is not difficult to reflect on death which is sure to come. The Buddha gave, as I said before, an extra dimension: death is not different from the passing away of citta at each moment. Whenever we read the satipatthana sutta we should keep in mind that all these meditations should bring us back to the development of understanding of the present moment. I find this the most important. I do not think of having success in development of calm, calm depends on the occasion, on the citta at a given moment. As Rob M pointed out, people have different accumulations. If someone likes to have a quiet time, for example in the early morning, he follows his accumulated inclinations. It is helpful if he also realizes that these are conditioned moments. This will help him not to cling to such moments or to cling to the idea of . Nina. 26406 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:00am Subject: Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part I Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part I The Rebirths of the Sotåpanna Introduction [1] There are four stages of enlightenment: the stage of the streamwinner, sotåpanna, of the once-returner, sakadågåmí, of the non-returner, anågåmí, and of the arahat. Defilements are successively eradicated at these four stages of enlightenment. The arahat has eradicated all defilements and thus, there are no more conditions for rebirth. The ariyans of the preceding stages will have to be reborn. The sotåpanna will not be reborn more than seven times, and this is the subject of this Issue. ****** Issue of Analysis: Will the streamwinner, sotåpanna, not be reborn more than seven times, or more than that? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: The Sotåpanna will not be reborn more than seven times. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. The ³Saddhammappakåsiní², Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination², Patìsambhidåmagga, Commentary to Treatise II, on Views, 706. 2. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², Commentary to the ³Book of Analysis², Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, Decads, 2162. 3. The ³Pañcappakaranatthakathå², Commentary to the fourth Book of the Abhidhamma, the ³Puggalapaññatti², ³Human Types², Ch I, by One, 39, ³single-seeded², ekabíjin. 4.The ³Sumangalavilåsiní², Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², Commentary to the ³Questions of Sakka² (II, no 21). The explanation of the reason for this conclusion: Several texts of the Commentaries explain about the kinds of rebirth of the sotåpanna. 1. We read in the ³Saddhammappakåsiní², Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination² about three types of sotåpanna: 1. The sotåpanna who is reborn seven times at most, sattakkhattuparama. 2. The sotåpanna who goes from clan to clan, kolankola. 3. The sotåpanna with a single seed, ekabíjin. We read: ³As to the words, of the person who is reborn seven times at most (sattakkhattuparamassa), this means that seven times is the most, and that he will not assume an eighth rebirth after he became this person. Thus he is a sotåpanna who is reborn seven times at most, sattakkhattuparama. As to the words, of the goer from clan to clan (kolankolassa), this means that he is not born in a lower clan, but only in a wealthy family so that he can realize the fruition of the sotåpanna. This is the sotåpanna who goes from clan to clan, kolankola. As to the words, with a single seed, ekabíjin, it is said that seed means the seed of the khandhas. This sotåpanna has only one seed of the khandhas [2]. He only has this one life and thus he is called ³single seeded². He has to assume one personality only, he germinates only once. The Buddha created these different names for these sotåpannas. The person who is called ³seven times at most², sattakkhattuparama, has reached just this status. The person who is called ³who goes from clan to clan², kolankola, has reached just this status. The person who is called ³with a single seed², ekabíjin, has reached just this status. These are the names the Buddha gave to those persons. Truly, the Buddha knew what status such and such people would reach and thus he created the appropriate names for them. It is true that the sotåpanna whose understanding is weak will be reborn seven times, and he is called, ³who will be reborn seven times at most². The sotapanna whose understanding is of medium degree will not be reborn after the sixth existence, and he is called ³who goes from clan to clan². The sotåpanna who has strong understanding will only be reborn once, and he is called ³single seeded². The fact that sotåpannas have different degrees of understanding, weak, medium and strong, is determined by conditions stemming from the past. These three kinds of sotåpanna have been referred to as having rebirth in the sensuous planes. However, many of them were reborn also in the planes of rúpa brahmas and arúpa brahmas [3].² It can be concluded that the sotåpanna does not have an eighth rebirth. He will not be reborn more than seven times, no matter whether he is reborn in the sensuous plane or in the planes of the rúpa brahmas or arúpa brahmas. Footnotes: 1. I wrote this introduction. 2. The khandhas arising and falling away during one single existence. 3. Rebirth in these planes is the result of rúpa-jhåna, material jhåna, and arúpa-jhåna, immaterial jhåna. Nina. 26407 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:13am Subject: Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Howard and all, I just wanted to point out and emphasize to everyone that awareness of feelings/(bodily sensations), and mind contents/objects/ideas should be tried to be held all throughout the day as much as possible. ... Since it is throughout the day that that moments of suffering are experienced and less likely in sitting meditation. When moments of suffering are experienced during the day, I think it is valuable to stop and take time to reflect and contemplate upon - What was the cause of that suffering, that unpleasent bodily sensation? When moments of suffering are experienced during the day, I think it is valuable to stop and take time to reflect upon - What were the sequence of thoughts/mind contents that led up to these moments of suffering, unpleasent bodily sensations? Many times these things will go by unrecognized unless an effort is made at that moment to discern it. In the opening section of the Maha Satipatthana suttana - "And how, bhikkus, does a brother so continue to consider the body?..." It follows in that paragraph: "Parimukham satim upatthapati" which means literally: "set up his memory in face of (the object of his thought)" -(Pali text society translation) It is most valuable that a log be kept of events in memory of what you are observing i.e. bodily sensations and mind contents, for they must be recalled for contemplation. This is evident in the sutta line: "...mindfulness hereof becomes established, far enough for the purposes of knowledge and of self collectedness." - Pali text society "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance." - Thanissaro Bhikkhu. There will be memory as long as there is awareness. The stronger the awareness the stronger the memory. while the Satipatthana does begin specifically with the instruction for breathing meditation: "having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise..." It is obvious from the rest of the Sutta that awareness of bodily sensation and mind contents should be held all day as much as can be done. We must also keep in mind that the most important goal in Satipatthana is to eliminate all of your suffering. While some may have very lofty goals of seeing the ultimate reality of nature, ability to see past lives, and other supernatural powers, we must not lose sight of what the main purpose of this practice is for. The practice, is done, in order recognize and to discern the source of your suffering, and then to eliminate it. I imagine, and do witness, that many people before even completing the task of recognizing and eliminating all of their suffering, grasp at the more "loftier" goals of discerning the ultimate reality of our existence. May all beings be happy, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > I draw your attention to the following material from the Satipatthana ---snip--- > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26408 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, Nori - In a message dated 10/28/03 1:18:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > Hi Howard and all, > > I just wanted to point out and emphasize to everyone that awareness > of feelings/(bodily sensations), and mind contents/objects/ideas > should be tried to be held all throughout the day as much as possible. > > ============================== I agree with you. In fact, my current practice consists basically of the following: Guarding the senses, ongoing mindfulness "at regular times", and sitting samatha meditation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26409 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry's place Hi Sarah, I think Larry lives in Montana, must be very good for trekking, Nina. op 28-10-2003 11:22 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > p.s Larry, I forget now, do you live in Penn too? 26410 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:03pm Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Julie. > Are the three of you reading together ADL ? I appreciate your interest, > questions always welcome. > op 27-10-2003 08:58 schreef Julie, Steve and Kevin op > julie_and_steve@b...: > > > regarding ch. 21 - Samatha. What meditation subject have you found most > > successful in the development of calm? I see that focusing on the breath, > > which is what I have been concentrating on, is one of the most difficult. I > > was surprised to read this because it seems that mindfulness of breathing is > > the most commonly practiced meditative object, or am I wrong in this > > understanding. > N: You will see that I quote the Visuddhimagga, an encyclopedia written by > the great Commentator Buddhaghosa. I am interested to study the Tipitaka and > the ancient commentaries. Modern teachers have different ideas, but these > are not my field of interest. > The Visuddhimagga warns not to take breath lightly, it shows how subtle this > subject is. It is a rupa conditioned by citta and it appears as hard, soft, > hot, cold, motion or pressure, at the nosetip or upperlip. What type of > citta conditions it? Great understanding and mindfulness are necessary, it > states. Understanding: this arises with kusala citta. Cittas change so > rapidly, then lobha, then kusala citta. These different moments have to be > known, otherwise one develops lobha instead of panna. > When we read in the suttas that the Buddha spoke about mindfulness of > breathing, we have to study: to whom is this sutta addressed? To monks who > had the potentials for arahatship? > Some people believe that Buddhaghosa manipulated the scriptures, that he was > wrong. But we can see for ourselves how conscientiously he describes all the > meditation subjects. They are helpful, good for reflection. He would not > gain anything by changing the teachings or by downplaying samatha. > Hi Nina, Though you don't mention me by name, I probably fall into this category of people you are describing. For the record, I don't believe that Buddhaghosa manipulated the commentaries in regard to the meditation subjects. This should be apparent because I provided a link to Julie that describes his translated commentary in detail. I believe it is original and un-manipulated, as well as extremely useful. Just wanted to point this out. However, it doesn't state that the breath is the most difficult of the meditation subjects, as far as I know. Yes, the breath is subtle and the mind can play tricks, but that goes for the other meditation subjects as well. Where exactly does the commentary state that it is the most difficult? I am very curious about this because I have seen this idea scattered throughout different posts in this group and I am not sure where it came from. Metta, James 26411 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:14pm Subject: Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi Howard and all, > > I just wanted to point out and emphasize to everyone that awareness > of feelings/(bodily sensations), and mind contents/objects/ideas > should be tried to be held all throughout the day as much as possible. > > ... Since it is throughout the day that that moments of suffering are > experienced and less likely in sitting meditation. Hi Nori, I agree with your other points but not this one. Suffering is a constant of the human condition and is experienced at all times, even during sitting meditation. Actually, I would state that it is especially experienced during sitting meditation; that is why sitting meditation is so difficult and unappealing to most people. I believe that you are thinking of the suffering that comes from the vicissitudes of life, the gross manifestations of suffering, but that isn't where the true problem lies. The problem lies with the Root of Suffering, the subtle and constant suffering stemming from mind moments, and that suffering is usually only seen in the midst of meditation (for the wordling, that is). Metta, James 26412 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I agree with you. In fact, my current practice consists basically of > the following: Guarding the senses, ongoing mindfulness "at regular times", and > sitting samatha meditation. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, If it isn't too personal, would you mind describing somewhat how you go about 'guarding the senses'? I have come across this phrase quite often in sutta translations and I don't think I understand what it means. I can understand guarding the mind and its reactions to the senses, but I don't understand guarding the senses. Metta, James 26413 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry's place Hi Nina & Sarah, I live in Boulder Colorado. It's good for trekking but I don't go farther than the nearest donut shop. Larry ----------------- Nina: Hi Sarah, I think Larry lives in Montana, must be very good for trekking, Nina. op 28-10-2003 11:22 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: p.s Larry, I forget now, do you live in Penn too? 26414 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, James - In a message dated 10/28/03 6:48:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > If it isn't too personal, would you mind describing somewhat how you > go about 'guarding the senses'? I have come across this phrase quite > often in sutta translations and I don't think I understand what it > means. I can understand guarding the mind and its reactions to the > senses, but I don't understand guarding the senses. > > Metta, James > ============================= I understand guarding the senses to actually be a guarding of the mind. Most of the time, when there is contact via the sense doors but mindfulness is weak and one is not vigilant, one reacts with aversion/craving/confusion depending on the vedanic flavor of the object, but with heightened mindfulness and vigilance (with an eye towards seeing what's coming and reacting usefully or not at all), akusala reacting can be avoided, or at least cut short if already begun. By such mindful vigilance one can often head off harmful states that have not yet occured, terminate harmful states that have begun, foster useful states not yet arisen, and sustain and further useful states that have already begun. This is my understanding of guarding the senses. Unfortunately, my practice of guarding the senses is more often along the lines of closing the barn door after the horse has escaped - that is, at best cutting short the akusala response rather than forestalling it, but at other times I can do better than this. What I do find is that the more often and regularly I *think* about maintaining mindfulness and vigilance, the more consistently this then occurs, the more consistently I *remember* to guard the senses. The repeated thinking about doing this, reiterating in the mind the *intention* to be vigilant, seems to foster its occurrence. (This reminds me a bit of cultivating lucid dreaming. The more one *thinks* about it and *intends* to do it, the more easily does it occur.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26415 From: Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:49pm Subject: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi again, James - I had defined guarding the senses as basically a combination of mindfulness with vigilance. To clarify, what I'm talking about is a mindful vigilance to avoid being swept away by the current of experience, much as a sentinal at the gates of a city is watchful for attacks to which the city may be vulnerable. I hope this captures the sense I'm trying to convey. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26416 From: nordwest Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... May be this quote helps: If you want to know the One, do not reject the data of the six senses. If they are not rejected they are the same as Enlightenment. 3rd Patriarch of China > Teaching: Have Faith In Your Mind http://www.shakumasu.com/ upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, James - ... I understand guarding the senses to actually be a guarding of the mind. Most of the time, when there is contact via the sense doors but mindfulness is weak and one is not vigilant, one reacts with aversion/craving/confusion depending on the vedanic flavor of the object, but with heightened mindfulness and vigilance (with an eye towards seeing what's coming and reacting usefully or not at all), akusala reacting can be avoided, or at least cut short if already begun. By such mindful vigilance one can often head off harmful states that have not yet occured, terminate harmful states that have begun, foster useful states not yet arisen, and sustain and further useful states that have already begun. This is my understanding of guarding the senses. 26417 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hi Dharam, Sarah, and All, > Good to see you back, and apparently refreshed. I returned to > respond to a message from Htoo, posted by RobertK, answered by Nina, > forwarded by a friend. A little bit of forgotten unfinished business > from February. As Azita says, Myanmar is just a memory, the same realities here as there. Hope this time Dharam, you do not have to leave and no business is left unfinished. ;-) > I don't know if you had a chance to follow the thread all the way > back, but there are some simple questions about Nibbana, that ought > to be addressed. At least if we are interested in exploring the > issue of exclusivity. I sense reluctance to do so, and an impulse to > to divert to more familiar territory. Let me know if this is truly > the case - you know I do not have an axe to grind. ;-) If you are willing, then I have no reluctance at all to discuss anything, as long as we can all be reasonable. And if there is a territory, it is `clear reasoning' that I am happy to be in. I do not like to think about Nibbana for the reason that I can't even get a glimpse of what it might be, since all I know is what goes on through the five senses and the `conditioned thinking' always limited by the memory of these same five sense door experiences. Even to say that it is `not' this, `not' that, the mind still analyzes and makes deductions, and I believe that there is so much room for clinging to one conclusion or the other. I am happy to take it on faith and some logical reasoning just this much; that Nibbana is the object of Lokuttara citta. And between Magga and Phala cittas, the former is just one citta moment for each of the stages of enlightenment. And this is all that is needed for final release from Samsara. It is not important to dwell on the peace of Nibbana as `fruit' (phala), so there is absolutely no reason for me to contemplate about it. But I do believe that as one comes to know more and more the nature of conditioned realities, automatically, one gets an increasingly better understanding of what the `unconditioned' Nibbana might be, i.e. when there are conditions for such a reflection. But I am far from any direct understanding of these realities, so better not to think too much about that which I have no idea about! ;-) In fact, early on when I was still quite new to Abhidhamma, I asked K. Sujin, Sarah was also there, and if I remember right, she also was curious to know, that can't panna develop just by accumulation to the point of enlightenment, without needing to experience Nibbana? Her answer was short, but what I vaguely understood then, was that for the `conditioned' to be known perfectly, it must be known in relation to the `unconditioned'. The implication of this as I see it, one is that it requires increasing familiarity of conditioned realities, from gross `particular' characteristics of each nama and rupa, to the direct apprehension of the universal characteristic of anicca, dukkha and anatta. The other is that "knowing" the unconditioned Nibbana, means that one *must* know these same conditioned realities perfectly. Contemplating a bit about it, Nibbana is not a state of mind, nor is it anything that can give rise to any thought about being here or there or all around or nowhere. There is no observer/observed duality nor is there a "oneness", a sense of `unity' (to me this sounds like the ultimate conceit). It is not some state of mind that one `prefers' to dwell in, as against everyday conditioned realties. It *can't* be the object of desire, though misunderstanding it, one *does* seek a concept of something which goes by the same name, and this is just one's mental projection. And within the scope of mental projections with wisdom (not of the vipassana kind) or without, many *do* things with the aim of reaching certain states of mind and experiences. Those with the wisdom, who see the harm in unwholesome mental states and the benefit of wholesome ones, have different views about the ultimate goal, some even use the same label- Nirvana, as Buddha did. However, not knowing about conditionality and anatta, their understanding is quite if not completely different from what the Buddha taught. Depending on accumulations and temperament, some will seek `Godhead', `Tao', `cessation of form', `cessation of mind', `infinity of space', `neither perception nor non perception' etc. However all these only result in suppression and sublimation of unwholesome states of mind and if the `meditations' do progress successfully; they result in the most sublime states of mind. But they do not lead to complete eradication of defilements, and as Nina and Victor were discussing recently, this is far inferior to the peace of Nibbana, as in the case of *complete* eradication. Actually, the goal of all other religions is just *different* from the Buddha's teachings!! What the Buddha taught, was about the Four Noble Truths, which when viewed from different angles can be identified in terms of `conditionality/unconditioned', `nama, rupa (/Nibbana)', `5 khandhas/ Nibbana', `Dhatu', `Ayatana' or even `dependent origination / transcendental dependent origination'. No other religion teaches this. Why? Because they have *not* seen the "Truth"! Some will even claim to aim at `getting out of the cycle of birth and death', however, only the right cause can bring about the right result. And not understanding the conditioned realities of the present moment is *not* the right cause to attenuate and finally eradicate defilements, such that at some point Nibbana will then be experienced and "doubt" will finally cease. Having said the above, I must say that I do greatly admire *all* the wise men of the past, especially those who have independently (conventionally and comparatively speaking), come upon the understanding that they have, and more so, the sincere determination to not allow unwholesome tendencies to rule their lives. As I said before, when I first reflected on the life of the Buddha's contemporaries, especially his teachers, I was greatly impressed by their accumulations of wisdom. However, with the sanna of the Buddha's Teachings, I can't be bothered with anything else. And I don't understand why some Buddhists would like to for example, practice jhana. Having the accumulations for it is one point, I think a person who does have it, must as I understand it, be so sensitive to `lobha', that he would feel completely uncomfortable living the modern life. And though he may know about anatta and conditionality which would then cause him not to deliberately seek better conditions; I think he should then also see more value in satipatthana as capable of being developed only "naturally". And if he `did' see any real value in the Buddha's teachings, he will see that it is `vipassana panna' and not `samatha panna' which is more worthy of accumulation. Besides, after reading the other day, Rob M's description of `Planes of Existence', knowing that one can be *stuck* on some Brahma plane for a time that it takes even several Buddha's to come and go, risking being reborn as one, implies a really BAD choice, I think ;-). > [Conceit is an assumption about the mental factor that insists on > exclusivity, and is more of a side-issue.] Though my own understanding is not much to feel any good about, and there are many conditions for doubt and uncertainty, there is no other teachings I would give any priority to. I hope you now get a better picture and see why `exclusivity' is the result. That it is not so much, `*my* Teacher and Teachings', but more `*Teachings* and Teacher' as against `other Teachings' and consequently the `other Teachers'. In other words, I am inclined to say that it is more about `reasoning' (and some experience), than `assumption' or `identification'. But of course, this does not mean that `mana' does not come in, in fact it can even be more so. :-) Metta, Sukin. 26418 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 0:03am Subject: RE: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Nina wrote: Are the three of you reading together ADL (Julie, Steve and Kevin)? I appreciate your interest, questions always welcome. Julie: Thank you for your detailed response. I have much to reflect on. As for Steve and Kevin, they are my husband and 3 year old. Steve has just decided to read "Buddhism in Daily Life" I think as a means of deciphering what on earth I'm talking about! I've actually just joined Lynn's group in Melbourne. They are responsible for introducing me to this new language of 'namas' and 'rupas' and I'm afraid I am a lost cause being completely and utterly fascinated. Bye Julie 26419 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 0:56am Subject: Myanmar2 - self-view & tapes Dear Nina, I’ll try to add a little more on the the first qu you asked me to raise on the trip. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > As to points of discussion in Myanmar, intellectually we can understand > that > sakkaya-ditthi and other ditthis are extremely subtle. We can also cling > to > "me" just with lobha, no wrong view or conceit. It would be helpful to > hear > more about it. ..... There was so much discussion on this topic. (If anyone is interested to listen, I think the tapes will be very helpful. I’ve just listened to the first couple which are very clear. To get copies, pls send an email to K.Supatsorn at the Foundation, specifying whether you prefer cassette or MP3 and giving the dates (i.e 17th-25th Oct inc). "Supassorn Jindathai" These include ‘official’ tapes made at the Foundation and on the last day of the trip and ‘unofficial’ tapes made by Jon on the trip. Let me or Sukin know off-list if there are any problems. Costs including postage have already been covered, but pls mention DSG or my name and be patient as K.Supatsorn and others are very busy!) Just a few notes from my jottings on mana(conceit) and sakkaya ditthi (self-view) to add to comments Sukin and I have given already on mana. I hope others will add more: K.Sujin: “Develop the mind and you’ll find out everything, like theory and exercise...” On self-view, “When awareness is aware, it’s there. When there is awareness, the characteristic is there - no need to think too much - just develop understanding, otherwise it’s like we’ve understood the reality already.” “.....More and more subtle (degrees), eg heat through the body. Understanding develops - develop and let go of everything - even the heat. Very subtle, taking whatever appears as me.” In other words, there can be awareness and understanding of heat and then taking it for self immediately afterwards or just attachment - it depends. She also mentioned that sakkaya ditthi was the ‘lightest’ view. She said that other views were the same, but the content was different, eg ‘computers’ and ‘things’. When there is self-view, there are bound to be other wrong views. Metta, Sarah ====== > Sarah: > quite sure that at the higher stages of insight any lingering > > sakkaya-ditthi and other ditthi are extremely subtle. Even now, > amongst > > grosser forms, I am sure there are many subtle variants that we have > > little idea about. Quite possibly, too, that many so called conceits > (or > > sense-of-self’ cittas), may with more wisdom turn out to be one form > of > > ditthi or other. They follow each other so very closely, I find.> 26420 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:56am Subject: Myanmar3 - Nirutti Patisambhida & Pali Dear Nina (& Larry), > Q 2: about the four discriminations: > Very high degrees of panna, some mundane, some lokuttara as the Tiika > says. > We cannot even try to grasp what they are, and when reading texts we > meet > many difficulties. Such as nirutti, language. <...> ..... I asked more on this difficult qu and also on points from the texts about Magadha or Pali as being the speech of Ariyans, ‘the individual essence’ language and references to children and animals speaking Pali. This is what I made notes on, repeated here in parrot fashion;-): Realities are represented by words. The meaning is understood when the word is heard. It depends on accumulations (for those with patisambhidas (discriminative knowledges) whether there may be more of one of the 4 knowledges. Just as not all arahants have equal understanding, not all those with patisambhidas have equal discriminative knowledges. Pali is the ‘individual essence language’ just for the one who speaks Pali or reads it already. It doesn’t mean the sotapanna or other ariyans have to speak or learn the language. Without nirutti patisambhida (discriminative knowledge of language), one cannot really undestand the words represented in the dictionary. For us, we hear a word such as feeling or vedana and we cannot really understand what it means. For those with this knowledge, the word conditions understanding. Because the texts were written in Pali, therefore for those reading them, it is the essential language, conditioning knowledge of reality and understanding of the meaning. We are born at this time, so we can’t know what happened in old times (eg examples of animals speaking etc). It’s not necessary to study Pali. It depends on the understanding, not the language. Patisambhidas don’t depend on Pali. All ariyans, even the sotapanna has attha patisambhida (discriminative knowledge of result) - knowledge of no self and of conditions. It is the same path leading to enlightenment as to the patisambhidas. It just depends on accumulations as to whether the patisambhidas will be fully developed. All ariyans have patisambhida knowledges, all are trainers, but to different degrees and they are only fully developed and realized by some arahants only. Panna (understanding) directly knows reality as it is, it ‘disciminates’. ***** More on Pali study - a conversation between K.Sujin and myself: KS: The point of studying is to understand realities, otherwise what you think you know by words in this life in this language, next life is in a different language and so you forget everything. S: What about Pali being the real Buddha-vacana... KS: What’s the objective in studying it? S: Different people have different objectives. Some people feel they can only understand the Teachings by studying in Pali. By reading and studying the Pali, the meaning will be deeper.. KS: Only for those who already know realities. For example, Pali may have been your language in your last life, now you’ve forgotten it. You might have recited lots of Pali suttas and abhidhamma, now there is no understanding of Pali. There can be understanding, no matter what language. S: We should be grateful that the Teachings have come down to us in Pali because this is the way they’ve kept their authenticity. We should be grateful for those who’ve learnt Pali to transmit and translate... KS; ... to understand reality correctly. Otherwise there’s no point just to remember sounds of Pali and meanings of the words. S: So one just studies or learns as much as is helpful to condition more understanding of reality. KS: Yes. S: What about more study or translation work to help others have access to the Teachings.. KS: to understand reality clearer and better. ..... Later she added that for those who have good understanding, studying Pali is useful but for those who study Pali without understanding, they just follow their wrong views. Metta, Sarah ==== 26421 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hi Dharam, --- bodhi342 wrote: > I don't know if you had a chance to follow the thread all the way > back, but there are some simple questions about Nibbana, that ought > to be addressed. ... I assure you that all the posts were being passed around the bus in Myanmar;-) .... At least if we are interested in exploring the > issue of exclusivity. I sense reluctance to do so, and an impulse to > to divert to more familiar territory. Let me know if this is truly > the case - you know I do not have an axe to grind. ;-) ..... Perhaps we can all agree that there is only ever the present moment and present reality that can be known. No nibbana now, but seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, conceit and other namas and rupas arising and falling away. These can be known and tested out - common to all, nothing exclusive and no special labels needed;-) Any objections? Metta, Sarah ===== 26422 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry's place Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina & Sarah, > > I live in Boulder Colorado. It's good for trekking but I don't go > farther than the nearest donut shop. > > Larry > ----------------- .... Donut meditations;-) Boulder, Colorado became famous when that little child beauty queen was murdered I think. I remember now, I made this association before. .... > Nina: Hi Sarah, > I think Larry lives in Montana, > must be very good for trekking, ..... Sanna vipallasa (perversion of perception). We say this, but actually sanna vipallasa arrives with each moment of akusala citta(unwholesome consciousness). I think that was Dan in his Montana cabin and also Shakti lives in Montana- sounds beautiful. Metta, Sarah ====== 26423 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi James & Nori, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I agree with your other points but not this one. Suffering is a > constant of the human condition and is experienced at all times, even > during sitting meditation. .... As you imply, suffering in its ultimate sense is one of the three characteristics of all realities because of their impermanent nature. This is regardless of whether there is any understanding of it or of the realities or not. ..... --- norakat147 wrote: > I just wanted to point out and emphasize to everyone that awareness > of feelings/(bodily sensations), and mind contents/objects/ideas > should be tried to be held all throughout the day as much as possible. ... Held by whom or what, I wonder?? .... > ... Since it is throughout the day that that moments of suffering are > experienced and less likely in sitting meditation. > > When moments of suffering are experienced during the day, I think it > is valuable to stop and take time to reflect and contemplate upon - > What was the cause of that suffering, that unpleasent bodily > sensation? ..... Would this be thinking or awareness?? Good to see both your posts. Nori, we discussed a little more on accumulations, natural decisive support condition and sappaya sampajanna (right comprehension of suitability) on the trip....I’ll try to add more tomorrow. Metta, Sarah ===== 26424 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, James - > > I had defined guarding the senses as basically a combination of > mindfulness with vigilance. To clarify, what I'm talking about is a > mindful > vigilance to avoid being swept away by the current of experience, much > as a sentinal > at the gates of a city is watchful for attacks to which the city may be > vulnerable. I hope this captures the sense I'm trying to convey. ..... So doesn't guarding the senses refer to mindfulness of seeing and visible object, hearing and sound and so on for the other sense doors so that at those moments, these namas and rupas are not followed by clinging to the details and ideas about these? As you suggest, at those moments of mindfulness, there is vigilance already. No self to do anything! I like the analogy of the sentinal at the city gates. Good to read your discussions with Ken H in our absence;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 26425 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - ============================= > I understand guarding the senses to actually be a guarding of the > mind. Most of the time, when there is contact via the sense doors but mindfulness > is weak and one is not vigilant, one reacts with aversion/craving/confusion Hi Howard, Thanks for this input. I think the mistake I make is that I take this phrase too literally. I see "guarding the senses" and I imagine that one is supposed to somehow carefully control what objects come in contact with the senses, from the environment. I could imagine how a monk might do this, by limiting contact with the outside world, but I wasn't sure how a layperson was supposed to do this. If you interpret this to mean an internal process, then I guess it does makes it more feasible for the layperson. Metta, James 26426 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James & Nori, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > I agree with your other points but not this one. Suffering is a > > constant of the human condition and is experienced at all times, even > > during sitting meditation. > .... > As you imply, suffering in its ultimate sense is one of the three > characteristics of all realities because of their impermanent nature. This > is regardless of whether there is any understanding of it or of the > realities or not. > ..... Hi Sarah, No, I don't think I imply that at all. I wrote that suffering is a constant of the human condition, not of all realities. I don't believe that a chair, for example, suffers. Remember, I don't accept the Abhidhamma with its theories of rupa. Metta, James 26427 From: Sarah Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > No, I don't think I imply that at all. I wrote that suffering is a > constant of the human condition, not of all realities. .... It must have been wishful thinking on my part;-) .... I don't > believe that a chair, for example, suffers. ..... Does anyone? .... >Remember, I don't accept > the Abhidhamma with its theories of rupa. .... Right! Metta, Sarah ====== 26428 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Howard, --------------- H: > I draw your attention to the following material from the Satipatthana Sutta. The very first of these items is formal sitting meditation, and the subsequent ones begin with "Furthermore": ----------------- I'm not sure of the point you are making, could you elaborate? As you know, this sutta has been extensively discussed on dsg; I'd like to make a few comments based on what I have learnt so far: ------------- SS: > "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness ------------- Is it necessary to go into the wilderness and practise mindfulness of breathing in order to remain focused on the body in and of itself? Or is this simply the description of one case in which it happens (i.e., the case of the most accomplished of all jhana meditators). -------------- SS: > [2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. . Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. --------------- So it is not only when practising anapanasati that right mindfulness of the body can occur. Can we say the Buddha *prescribed* anapanasati as a means of bringing satipatthana into being? If he did prescribe it, did he also prescribe walking, standing and sitting (and every other disposition of the body)? ---------------- SS: > [3] "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. ------------------- Apart from sleep, is there any bodily activity in daily life during which a monk cannot make himself fully alert? ------------------ SS: > [4] "Furthermore...just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain -- wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice -- and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. . . . . This is husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, ------------------ Is there any part of the body that cannot be seen, with right mindfulness, as mere rupa? ----------------- SS: > [5] "Furthermore...just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.' ------------------ Whatever we know as the body is always, in absolute reality, just the elements. ------------------- SS: > [6] Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground -- one day, two days, three days dead -- bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'... ---------------------- The absolutely real characteristics of rupa -- anicca, dukkha and anatta -- can be seen as vividly as can the conventionally real characteristics of a stinking corpse -- impermanence, loathsomeness and the absence of an abiding self. Is that how you understand the sutta? How does this extract signify what you have called, "The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta" Kind regards, Ken H 26429 From: shakti Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:08am Subject: Myanmar Dear Friends, It has been over 25 years since I first visited Burma, now known as Myanmar and it has changed dramatically since then. The jet age has certainly turned the once isolated, exotic country into a popular vacation destination. Burma in many ways is still like the Burma that I remembered from years ago. Both men and women still wear the traditional longyi and slippers, smoke their aromatic cheroot cigars and women continue to paint their faces with thanaka paste as a form of beautification. And even though new crisp bank notes (previously very old and very dirty) are everywhere there remains an active black market. No trip to Burma would be complete without going to Rangoon (now Yangon) to visit the famous Shwedagon Pagoda, where eight hairs of the Buddha are enshrined. One sees the pagoda long before arriving at it's steps, as the pagoda is 327 feet high and towers above most of Rangoon. The top of the pagoda is capped with thousands of diamonds and other precious stones, the cap stone being a 76 carat diamond. It is covered with more than 60 tons of pure gold. The main pagoda is surrounded by 72 smaller temples or chedis, most of them too crowned by golden pagodas. Words can't describe the incredible awe that it evoked in me. It was absolutely majestic and even seemed other worldly somehow. The gold and diamonds were dazzling and with the setting sun seemed to be on fire. Walking around the pagoda was spectacular. Devout Buddhist stopped to pay their respect at many of the Buddha statues, to make offerings of incense, flowers, candles and money. The deep sound of bells and gongs added to the other worldly atmosphere. At one point some from our group of 108, sat with Khun Sujin in one of the temples for dhamma discussion. The trip was an amazing experience, it was a rich mix of visiting pagodas or chedis, experiencing the beauty of Burma's lush landscape and having the opportunity to discuss dhamma with Khun Sujin and other friends. Special thanks to all of those english speaking dhamma friends, Sarah, Betty, Jon, Christine, Azita, Sukin, Sandra, Jack, Noi and Num, who shared so freely of their experiences and gave support and encouragement as I struggled at times to understand dhamma. I feel very grateful to have had the opportunity to have had dhamma discussions everyday with Ajahn Sujin. I especially appreciated her kindness and marveled at her immense patience, as we asked question after question. She was extremely generous with her time and her willingness to share her deep understanding with us. I was amazed at how she listened to the 'stories' that we would tell, then would cut to the heart of the issues that we raised. She gave us constant reminders that 'now' can only be experienced 'now.' The following are a few quotes of Khun Sujin that relate to different questions that were raised. If in anyway I have misquoted her please forgive me and let me know. Please forgive me for not going into the questions, but hopefully her words will be of help to you anyways. If anyone is interested in hearing more about the discussions perhaps you could email or call the foundation for copies of the tapes. Thank you Jon for making those tapes. "Any reality that one takes for self is wrong view." "Panna sees attachment as attachment and not self." "Whispering lobha" "If not now? When?" "Ignorance is the darkest darkness." "Life is one process to another to another." "Anything which is real is dhamma." "Before giving advice consider if the person wants advice." "What do you mean by meditation?" "Is meditation the understanding of nama and rupa?" "What about meditation? Just throw it away. Would you like to keep it?" "Seeing is real, it is not I, it is conditioned." "At moment of seeing and clinging to visible object, at that moment is there clinging to self?" With metta, Shakti 26430 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/29/03 5:29:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi again, James - > > > > I had defined guarding the senses as basically a combination of > >mindfulness with vigilance. To clarify, what I'm talking about is a > >mindful > >vigilance to avoid being swept away by the current of experience, much > >as a sentinal > >at the gates of a city is watchful for attacks to which the city may be > >vulnerable. I hope this captures the sense I'm trying to convey. > ..... > So doesn't guarding the senses refer to mindfulness of seeing and visible > object, hearing and sound and so on for the other sense doors so that at > those moments, these namas and rupas are not followed by clinging to the > details and ideas about these? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Simple mindfulness is most of it. But that doesn't quite fully describe the matter. There must be an ongoing, repeated intention to be aware and not allow being swept away. This is where the vigilance seems to come in. Intention, intention, and yet more intention is important in this. The thing is: At the moment a sight, sound, odor, taste, bodily sensation, or mind-door object enters awareness, it it *too late* to first exercise mindfulness and reactive "control" - it will be automatic (already determined) at that point. There must be prior heightened attention and intention (with high energy - viriya), a sharp readiness, and this must occur repeatedly, so that when it is time for appropriate response and avoiding of harmful response, the necessary conditions are already in place. ------------------------------------------------------ As you suggest, at those moments of> > mindfulness, there is vigilance already. No self to do anything! > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Never a self to do anything - not at the moment of arising at a sense door, nor in advance of that. No self doing anything at all, but the doing occurring none the less. ----------------------------------------------------- I like> > the analogy of the sentinal at the city gates. > > Good to read your discussions with Ken H in our absence;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26431 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, James - In a message dated 10/29/03 6:12:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for this input. I think the mistake I make is that I take > this phrase too literally. I see "guarding the senses" and I imagine > that one is supposed to somehow carefully control what objects come > in contact with the senses, from the environment. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, this would be very limited in possibility of carrying out - one could close ones's eyes, shut one's ears. It reminds me of the three monkeys: See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil! ;-)) This, of course, is a practice that could *easily* involve and worsen aversion. On the other hand, the aspect of guarding the mind which involves fostering useful states and not proliferating and concocting harmful ones is important. When the mind is running towards lustful thoughts, for example, there are moments at which it is possible to increase or decrease the momentum, to turn towards or to turn away - there is choice, and it is important then to *remember* the Dhamma, and act accordingly. ------------------------------------------------------ I could imagine > how a monk might do this, by limiting contact with the > outside world, > but I wasn't sure how a layperson was supposed to do this. If you > interpret this to mean an internal process, then I guess it does > makes it more feasible for the layperson. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I think it is always prudent to externally minimize putting oneself in harm's way, but the essential practice is internal. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26432 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:02am Subject: Re: The Centrality of ...) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Howard: > Yes. Simple mindfulness is most of it. But that doesn't quite fully > describe the matter. There must be an ongoing, repeated intention to be aware > and not allow being swept away. This is where the vigilance seems to come in. > Intention, intention, and yet more intention is important in this. ================== Dear Howard, A few questions: What is simple mindfulness? Why do you say intention is the main factor? Could someone who hasn't heard deep Dhamma expreince the 'simple mindfulness' you mention? Say I suggested to someone that they focus calmly and carefully on the breath, or feelings; would that be mindfulness that the Buddha meant? RobertK 26433 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:33am Subject: Re: Myanmar Dear Shakti, I still haven't made it to Burma. Such a great country, where the Abhidhamma and Tipitaka is still cherished. Thanks very much for the quotes from A. Sujin. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti > The following are a few quotes of Khun Sujin that relate to different questions that were raised. If in anyway I have misquoted her please forgive me and let me know. Please forgive me for not going into the questions, but hopefully her words will be of help to you anyways. If anyone is interested in hearing more about the discussions perhaps you could email or call the foundation for copies of the tapes. Thank you Jon for making those tapes. > > "Any reality that one takes for self is wrong view." > "Panna sees attachment as attachment and not self." > "Whispering lobha" > "If not now? When?" > "Ignorance is the darkest darkness." > "Life is one process to another to another." > "Anything which is real is dhamma." > "Before giving advice consider if the person wants advice." > "What do you mean by meditation?" > "Is meditation the understanding of nama and rupa?" > ====- We might want to know dhamma. But instead of knowing the reality at that moment of wanting (tanha, i.e wanting itself), perhaps we look for something else that we think we must do first. And this is because of the idea that dhammas last , that there is something lasting (for a second or split second, or longer) . Or one has doubt about Dhamma or about what the path really is. So instead of knowing doubt and seeing its conditioned nature, one might turn away from doubt and try to force it away; take up what seems to be a clearcut method that convinces one they are on the right path. And so things get complicated. Robert K 26434 From: bodhi342 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:14am Subject: Re: nibbana Hi Sarah, > I assure you that all the posts were being passed around the bus in > Myanmar;-) > Perhaps we can all agree that there is only ever the present moment > and present reality that can be known. No nibbana now, but seeing, > hearing, thinking, feeling, conceit and other namas and rupas > arising and falling away. These can be known and tested out - > common to all, nothing exclusive and no special labels needed;-) > Any objections? > Metta, > Sarah This topic seems to cause the arising of irritation and impatience -- presumably just in the present moment of course! How can there be any objection to everyone returning to familiar territory? No need to consider anything else now. In any case these are just concepts. :) metta, dharam 26435 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, Ken - I will reply to a few points, in context: In a message dated 10/29/03 7:14:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --------------- > H: >I draw your attention to the following material from > the Satipatthana Sutta. The very first of these items is > formal sitting meditation, and the subsequent ones begin > with "Furthermore": > ----------------- > > I'm not sure of the point you are making, could you > elaborate? As you know, this sutta has been extensively > discussed on dsg; I'd like to make a few comments based on > what I have learnt so far: > > ------------- > SS: >"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & > of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having > gone to the wilderness > ------------- > > Is it necessary to go into the wilderness and practise > mindfulness of breathing in order to remain focused on > the body in and of itself? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. but this is what is called for here, and it is the *first* thing mentioned. the point is not that of wilderness or cave, but of seclusion. My point also, was that the very first thing mentioned was a formal sitting meditation. (I suggest you also examine the material quoted in my follow-up post.) ------------------------------------------------- Or is this simply the> > description of one case in which it happens (i.e., the > case of the most accomplished of all jhana meditators). ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. There is no basis for this. -------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > SS: >[2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns > that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is > standing. When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. . > Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns > it. > --------------- > > So it is not only when practising anapanasati that right > mindfulness of the body can occur. Can we say the Buddha > *prescribed* anapanasati as a means of bringing > satipatthana into being? If he did prescribe it, did he > also prescribe walking, standing and sitting (and every > other disposition of the body)? > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: He prescribed mindfulness of the body in all modes. I have not claimed and do not claim that only formal, sitting maditation was called for. But it is primary. It was then, and it has been throughout the history of Buddhism. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------- > SS: >[3] "Furthermore, when going forward &returning, he > makes himself fully alert; when looking toward &looking > away... when bending &extending his limbs... when > carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe &his bowl... > when eating, drinking, chewing, &savoring... when > urinating &defecating... when walking, standing, > sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, &remaining > silent, he makes himself fully alert. > ------------------- > > Apart from sleep, is there any bodily activity in daily > life during which a monk cannot make himself fully alert? > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Fully?? Well that depends on the training one has put oneself through!! Nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever will! (Nice lyric, I think. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------ > SS: >[4] "Furthermore...just as if a sack with openings > at both ends were full of various kinds of grain -- > wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, > husked rice -- and a man with good eyesight, pouring it > out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. . . . . This is > husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on > this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the > crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of > various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are > head hairs, body hairs, > ------------------ > > Is there any part of the body that cannot be seen, with > right mindfulness, as mere rupa? > > ----------------- > SS: >[5] "Furthermore...just as a skilled butcher or his > apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a > crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk > contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however > it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body > there is the earth property, the liquid property, the > fire property, &the wind property.' > ------------------ > > Whatever we know as the body is always, in absolute > reality, just the elements. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. Good theory. Nice to read about. Much better to directly know! -------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------- > SS: >[6] Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast > away in a charnel ground -- one day, two days, three days > dead -- bloated, livid, &festering, he applies it to this > very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is > its future, such its unavoidable fate'... > ---------------------- > > The absolutely real characteristics of rupa -- anicca, > dukkha and anatta -- can be seen as vividly as can the > conventionally real characteristics of a stinking corpse > -- impermanence, loathsomeness and the absence of an > abiding self. > > Is that how you understand the sutta? How does this > extract signify what you have called, "The Centrality of > Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta" > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26436 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 10/29/03 10:07:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >Howard: > > Yes. Simple mindfulness is most of it. But that doesn't > quite fully > >describe the matter. There must be an ongoing, repeated intention > to be aware > >and not allow being swept away. This is where the vigilance seems > to come in. > >Intention, intention, and yet more intention is important in this. > ================== > Dear Howard, > A few questions: > What is simple mindfulness? > Why do you say intention is the main factor? > Could someone who hasn't heard deep Dhamma expreince the 'simple > mindfulness' you mention? > Say I suggested to someone that they focus calmly and carefully on > the breath, or feelings; would that be mindfulness that the Buddha > meant? > RobertK > > =============================== Well, in my complete post and my other posts on this topic, I've made myself about as clear as I think I can. The repeated acts of intention are preparatory and cultivational. Robert, instead of questioning me further on this matter I would love to hear your opinions on it. Even better, I would be very interested in hearing of your real-life experience with guarding the senses and its relation to what you have read on the subject. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26437 From: bodhi342 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hi Sukin, "As Azita says, Myanmar is just a memory, the same realities here as there. Hope this time Dharam, you do not have to leave and no business is left unfinished. ;-)" Azita is absolutely correct - the same attitudes, motivations, instincts etc. are here as anywhere else. That should have been expected, and is now verified. It is the same sky. We can try to partition it and call it our own special, particular bright area. Others may do the same, calling it their own. That bright area is now our new reality. Therefore, how dare any outsider contemplating that same sky, try to suggest a coherence, or even that dirty word - 'unity'? What a silly notion? What a dangerous one? What a conceited one? Thanks to you and others, I have come to understand, there is no more unfinished business for me here. metta, dharam 26438 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:21am Subject: Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II 2. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, Decads, 2162, explains about the remaining rebirths of each class of sotåpannas, and in particular about the sotåpanna who is attached to life in the process of existence (vatta, the cycle of birth and death). We read: ³For the Master, after judging with the Buddha¹s judgement, after defining with omniscient knowledge that: ŒThis person has the greatest understanding of all and keen insight and he will grasp Arahatship after producing one existence more only,¹ created the name ŒOne with a single seed¹ (ekabíjin); [knowing] that: ŒThis person will grasp Arahatship after producing a second, a third, a fourth, a fifth, a sixth existence,¹ he created the name ŒOne who goes from clan to clan¹ (kolankola); [knowing] that: ŒThis person will grasp Arahatship after producing the seventh existence,¹ he created the name Œseven times at most¹ (sattakkhattuparama). But there is no person who is certain of seven existences. But the Noble Disciple attains complete extinction before the eight existence in whatever way his understanding is slow. He only goes to a seventh existence, even if he enjoys the process [of existence] as much as Sakka. In the seventh existence, even if he lives in all negligence, his insight knowledge comes to ripen. Feeling revulsion for even the smallest object, he arrives at peace.² 3. The ³Pañcappakaranatthakathå², Commentary to the ³Puggalapaññatti², ³Human Types², Ch I, by One, 39, ³single-seeded², ekabíjin, explains about the sotåpanna who enjoys the cycle of birth and death: ³Some sotåpannas are inclined to life in the cycle, they enjoy the process of existence and they traverse different lives. The following people had this inclination: Anåthapindika the layfollower Visåkhå Cúlaratha deva Mahåratha deva Anekavanna deva Sakka, King of the devas Någadatta deva All these people had attachment to life in the cycle of birth and death. They were born in the six classes of deva worlds, beginning with the lowest class, and they purified their minds in those deva worlds. They were established in plane of akanittha [4] and then attained parinibbåna. ... The sotåpannas who were reborn in the human world and were there reborn again, were reborn not more than seven times and then attained arahatship. The sotåpannas who were reborn in the deva worlds were there reborn again, but they were reborn not more than seven times and then attained arahatship. ......² The ³Sumangalavilåsinií², Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², Commentary to the ³Questions of Sakka² (II, no 21), gives an additional explanation about the rebirth of Sakka, the King of Devas: ³It is said that when he departed from his existence as Sakka, he was going upwards in the stream of life to the plane of akaniììha, because he had attained to the stage of anågåmí. First he was born in the Aviha plane [5] and finally he was born as brahma of the akaniììha plane.² We see from the texts that even the sotåpanna who was attached to life in the cycle, such as King Sakka, would only be reborn seven times. Therefore, sotåpannas will not be reborn more than seven times, no matter whether they are reborn only in the human world, or only in the deva planes, or in both kinds of planes. Or even if they are reborn in the devaplane until they attain the stage of the anågåmí and are then reborn in five classes of the Pure Abodes and attain arahatship in the akanittha plane, they will not be reborn more than seven times. Footnotes 4. Non-returners, anågåmís, can be reborn in the ³Pure Abodes², suddhåvåsa, which are five heavens of the fine-material world. The highest of these is the akanittha plane. 5. The lowest class of the ³Pure Abodes². ******** Nina. (end of this series, will be sent later on to Zolag web) 26439 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 28, 29, 30, 31 Hi Larry, op 25-10-2003 19:48 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > ""Prior effort" is devotion to insight in the dispensation of former > Buddhas, up to the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and > change-of-lineage by one who has practiced [the duty of] going [with the > meditation subject on alms round] and coming back [with it]." > I think this sentence is decisive in stating that the 4 discriminations > are developed before a path moment. N I just read the opposite: They come after the fruitions. Your above quoted text is about prior effort. meditation subject on alms round] and coming back [with it]> I like this text and have read about the monk who goes to the cedi and pays respect. It makes meditation very daily. It can apply to a samatha object and to insight, I think both. L: "For the discriminations come to success in noble ones only through the > noble fruition as the ten powers do in Perfect Ones." N: Yes. > L: we might say we don't really know what we are talking > about until we have realized egolessness up to at least the first stage > (sotapanna). N: I think they are above our heads. L:Furthermore, I would say all these discriminations are > abilities or skills in analyzing abstract, conceptual, path related, > knowledge. How do you see it? N: I do not see them in this way, it must be a very high degree of panna no longer realized now in this world. I am almost through with Tiika texts Conni gave me. They are very many pages, and I have to make a choice, cannot translate them all. I need advice from Sarah too. Nina. 26440 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Dear James, op 28-10-2003 23:03 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > Though you don't mention me by name, I probably fall into this > category of people you are describing. For the record, I don't > believe that Buddhaghosa manipulated the commentaries in regard to > the meditation subjects. This should be apparent because I provided > a link to Julie that describes his translated commentary in detail. > I believe it is original and un-manipulated, as well as extremely > useful. Just wanted to point this out. N: I really appreciate your interest. In fact several teachers, monks, even members of our Pali list have a negative view of Buddhaghosa. J: However, it doesn't state that the breath is the most difficult of > the meditation subjects, as far as I know. Yes, the breath is subtle > and the mind can play tricks, but that goes for the other meditation > subjects as well. Where exactly does the commentary state that it is > the most difficult? N: In the "Path of Purity" by Buddhaghosa. It is explained that we should not take it lightly. The same "Path of Purity" also explains how difficult access concentration and jhana are. I quote what I wrote before: You asked Howard about restraint of the senses. Here is a sutta: Middle Length Sayings 38: < Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the whole, nor to its parts. and he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses.> Thus, when you see colour immediately negative reactions may follow, after seeing, and then we are going on thinking about them, through the mind-door. There are many levels of this restraint. It is one among the monk's morality he has to observe. It can be observed on the level of all kinds of good deeds, the level of morality of laymen, tranquil meditation and on the level of vipassana. The arahat has perfect equanimity because of perfect restraint. As Howard rightly remarked, it is difficult, usually harm is done already. He reminds himself and this helps. I think the sutta words are a very good reminder as well. I find the following sutta helpful. ³Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28, translation of Wheel 101). We read : The same is said about feeling, perception , aggregate of formations or activities and consciousness. We then read: ³And his mind enters into that very object (taking it just as an impersonal) element, and acquires confidence, steadiness and decision (herein)². He developed understanding of the five aggregates and learnt to see them as impersonal elements. That is the way. The Buddha in many suttas spoke about colour and the other sense objects as they are experienced through the senses and the mind-door. If we take them all together: O, that terrible neighbour, that terrible country. If the neighbour speaks sharply, we can understand that hearing only hears sound. Are we cross with sound? I wrote before about the Elephant's Footprint: I thought of you the other day. Ramadhan has started and before dawn moslims eat. Here they let homeless people share with their meal. Another side of Islam. I appreciate your efforts with the students. Lodewijk says, one should go out of one's way and one additional step. Nobody asks for it but it is decisive, he said. His principal guideline in personal diplomacy. Openmindedness for the other party, interest in their culture, religion. There are many Islamic studies on our universities. So, we can apply the teachings on all levels. Nina. 26441 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Larry's place Hi Larry, do not eat donuts. Nina. op 29-10-2003 01:22 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I live in Boulder Colorado. It's good for trekking but I don't go > farther than the nearest donut shop. 26442 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re: a practical sutta for laymen. Dear Howard, op 28-10-2003 14:59 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I'm just writing, Julie, to make you aware that a number of members of > this list, Ken H among them, believe that meditating is avoidable, or even > best avoided! As you may realize from other responses you've received, that is > not the opinion of all the members, a number of us believing that meditation > is > a basic and essential part of the Buddha's teaching. What is certain is that > within the world-wide community of Buddhism, this latter, pro-meditation > perspective, is the norm, certainly in point-of-view, if not always in > practice. N:I understand that you point this out. As I wrote before, in the Dhamma there is a place for all kinds of accumulations. The same is true for dsg, fortunately. We do not always agree, but respect the other's viewpoint. Sometimes misunderstandings arise: people may think that there is an anti meditation club here ;-)) Another point you rightly stressed some time ago was: about living in the world of ultimate realities and in the world of conventional realities. Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you rightly indicated that one can go too far in saying, there are only nama and rupa, or, this is only thinking. In a way this is true, but, our life in the world concerns also conventional realities. Lodewijk also said that we have to be careful in our explanations. I shall now quote a sutta the Buddha spoke to laypersons where we find a perfect balance. Thanks for all the suttas on jhanas, I do not deny that what the Buddha said to monks can be applied to laypeople. But here in this sutta the Buddha does not speak about jhana. He did not say, everybody must develop concentration and jhana. It is the sutta on Longknee, the Koliyan (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VI, § 4.). I use the transl of Wheel no 14. The Buddha speaks about four conditions for worldly progress: accomplishment of persistent effort, he earns his living by trading, farming, etc. He is able to carry out and allocate duties. The accomplishment of watchfulness: he looks well after his possessions. Good friendship: he associates with those of faith, virtue, charity and wisdom. Balanced livelihood: he leads a balanced life, not extragavant nor miserly, . The Co refers to the Sigalovadasutta (Dialogues of the Buddha) where it is said that a layman divides his income in four portions: one for his wants, two on his business and one he keeps for times of need. Then there are four conditions for spiritual progress: accomplishment of faith, of virtue, of charity and of wisdom. The arising and cessation of the five aggregates: this can be achieved by developing precise understanding of each presently arising nama and rupa, through insight. Here, to laymen, the Buddha did not say: use jhana as a basis for insight, or, here are the roots of trees. And how full of practical advice is this sutta. I like the stress on right friendship. Nina. 26443 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:25am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II ---Dear Nina, I wondered about the tense in these sentences: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > The ³Sumangalavilåsinií², Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², > Commentary to the ³Questions of Sakka² (II, no 21), gives an additional > explanation about the rebirth of Sakka, the King of Devas: > > ³It is said that when he departed from his existence as Sakka, he was going > upwards in the stream of life to the plane of akaniììha, because he had > attained to the stage of anågåmí. First he was born in the Aviha plane [5] > and finally he was born as brahma of the akaniììha plane.² > ============== I thought that sakka would still be sakka because of the longlife in the deva world and wouldn't be born in other worlds till the future. with respect RobertK 26444 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re: a practical sutta for laymen. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/29/03 1:24:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N:I understand that you point this out. As I wrote before, in the Dhamma > there is a place for all kinds of accumulations. The same is true for dsg, > fortunately. We do not always agree, but respect the other's viewpoint. > ================================ Indeed. Respect for the other's viewpoint, and, even more, respect for the other's good will and basic goodness. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26445 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 0:18pm Subject: Re: re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > op 28-10-2003 23:03 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > > Though you don't mention me by name, I probably fall into this > > category of people you are describing. For the record, I don't > > believe that Buddhaghosa manipulated the commentaries in regard to > > the meditation subjects. This should be apparent because I provided > > a link to Julie that describes his translated commentary in detail. > > I believe it is original and un-manipulated, as well as extremely > > useful. Just wanted to point this out. > N: I really appreciate your interest. In fact several teachers, monks, even > members of our Pali list have a negative view of Buddhaghosa. Dear Nina, Well, I didn't know that others felt the same way that I do about Buddhaghosa. I haven't encountered any in this group and thought I might be the odd man out. After all, I base most of my opinion on the extra sensory perceptions I receive while reading his writings: those writings that disturb me I sense they have been fabricated or manipulated, those writings that give me a feeling of peace I sense they are original. Not the most scholarly approach I know but it works for me. Yes, taking the breath as a meditation object shouldn't be taken lightly. I have no disagreement about that. Moreover, I still believe its level of difficulty is going to be dependent on the individual. Thank you for the additional sutta quotes about guarding the senses; they are beautiful. I believe that this is one aspect of the teaching that many of us take for granted, assume we know what it means, but we don't really. How can you know what it means to do something when you can't really do it, or can do it only rarely? I still don't think I completely know what it means because I am not proficient at it. (I wonder, how can you do this if you are often times overwhelmed by ESP input? I don't believe the Buddha spoke to this.) Metta, James 26446 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi James and all, A chair does not suffer, nor do birth and death. But birth is dukkha, and so is death. Every thing, phenomenon, incident, event, relation, et cetera in the world is dukkha. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: [snip] > Hi Sarah, > > No, I don't think I imply that at all. I wrote that suffering is a > constant of the human condition, not of all realities. I don't > believe that a chair, for example, suffers. Remember, I don't accept > the Abhidhamma with its theories of rupa. > > Metta, James 26447 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James and all, > > A chair does not suffer, nor do birth and death. But birth is > dukkha, and so is death. Every thing, phenomenon, incident, event, > relation, et cetera in the world is dukkha. > > Peace, > Victor Hi Victor, Here is what the Buddha had to say about suffering (dukkha): "Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha." Now, if you notice, everything that the Buddha describes as being dukkha is associated with human beings (and other living entities). He doesn't mention anything about non-living things, like chairs, being dukkha. Suffering is only a quality to being alive, not to absolute reality. Metta, James 26448 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) - Cultivative speech and posts From: "rjkjp1" > > Dear Howard, > > A few questions: > > What is simple mindfulness? > > Why do you say intention is the main factor? > > Could someone who hasn't heard deep Dhamma expreince the 'simple > > mindfulness' you mention? > > Say I suggested to someone that they focus calmly and carefully on > > the breath, or feelings; would that be mindfulness that the Buddha > > meant? > > RobertK > > ... > Robert, instead of questioning me further on this matter I would love > to hear your opinions on it. Even better, I would be very interested in > hearing of your real-life experience with guarding the senses and its relation to > what you have read on the subject. > > With metta, > Howard > ---- From: "kenhowardau" I'm not sure of the point you are making, could you elaborate? As you know, this sutta has been extensively discussed on dsg ---- I must agree with Howard. Instead of questioning posts and statements people make, it would be much more beneficial for everybody if all of the statements and posts people made were contributing. e.g. ... is that your opinion? ... well this is my opinion. Questioning statements people make without offering new information benefits nobody. Even if it leads one to contemplate the subject, its a waste of time compared to just offering their view. ---- Also, I believe making posts on subjects that were already discussed are good since there are many of us here who are new here. If everyone is discussing advanced subjects and there is not enough on the basics then that would not be good for newcomers and beginners. peace, nori 26449 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Sarah, First, welcome back from Myanmar. Looks like you guys had a fun trip. > --- norakat147 wrote: > > I just wanted to point out and emphasize to everyone that awareness > > of feelings/(bodily sensations), and mind contents/objects/ideas > > should be tried to be held all throughout the day as much as possible. > ... > Held by whom or what, I wonder?? Very often you and others point out to me or remind me about Anatta (not-self), but I must admit that these replies are not helpful to me since I have yet to experience it. I read it in the Suttas and everyone talks about it but it is not my truth till I experience and understand this. For now, here "I" sit, ME, encapsulated in this skin. My mind/cognition however... I'm not too sure about. If however, you can elucidate Anatta in any way for me, I would be greatful. I have read the Suttas on the reasoning of - feelings, etc. arising and passing and so therefore not-self but I don't quite understand it. ---- > .... > > ... Since it is throughout the day that that moments of suffering are > > experienced and less likely in sitting meditation. > > > > When moments of suffering are experienced during the day, I think it > > is valuable to stop and take time to reflect and contemplate upon - > > What was the cause of that suffering, that unpleasent bodily > > sensation? > ..... > Would this be thinking or awareness?? > When moments of bodily sensations/feelings are felt, pleasent, unpleasant, or neither pleasant or unpleasant ... this is awareness. When one takes the moment to contemplate, recollect the events ... then this would be thinking as instructed by the blessed one. ---- > Good to see both your posts. Nori, we discussed a little more on > accumulations, natural decisive support condition and sappaya sampajanna > (right comprehension of suitability) on the trip....I'll try to add more > tomorrow. Looking forward to reading them. Still working on downloading the picture ... been busy, also I don't seem to like any of my pics, will try to find one thats not so corny ;) metta, nori 26450 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:45pm Subject: Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I agree with your other points but not this one. Suffering is a > constant of the human condition and is experienced at all times, even > during sitting meditation. I agree with you on that, but like you have said later in your post the gross manifestations are experienced very often throughout the day; these, I think you will agree, should be recognized by continuous awareness upon the body throughout the day. This I think is very important to emphasize especially for those starting out on Satipatthana who have so many gross manifestations, they cannot even begin to concentrate on the more subtle ones, or the mechanism in itself during sitting meditation. > The problem lies with the Root of > Suffering, the subtle and constant suffering stemming from mind > moments, and that suffering is usually only seen in the midst of > meditation (for the wordling, that is). Agreed, but like I said above. peace, nori 26451 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:01pm Subject: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi all, Somebody wrote: > At the moment a sight, sound, odor, taste, bodily sensation, or mind-door > object enters awareness, it it *too late* to first exercise mindfulness and > reactive "control" - it will be automatic (already determined) at that point. There > must be prior heightened attention and intention (with high energy - viriya), > a sharp readiness, and this must occur repeatedly, so that when it is time > for appropriate response and avoiding of harmful response, the necessary > conditions are already in place. I don't understand why here and in the Suttas, they speak as though much of our suffering takes place when objects enter our awareness through the sense doors (and then clinging to them)? Like if I'm walking down the street, see a beautiful woman, car, house or pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm suffering because I desire or crave the object. Or I feel a beautiful woman, car, house or taste pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm suffering because I cling to the object. I think most suffering (in our modern world) stems from having unfulfilled dreams and desires of living a certain kind of life, career, etc. Having a certain social life, friends, money, etc. How do we guard our senses against desires like these ??? peace and metta, nori 26452 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi James, People uses chairs and sit on them. Yet a chair, like our body, is inconstant, subject to change. Sooner or later, it breaks and disintegrates. It is dukkha. However, usually people don't grieve, lament, suffer, or get angry over a broken chair. Why not? Because they are not passionate about it. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: [snip] > > Metta, James 26453 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Nori, Body is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Mind is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Body and mind is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi Sarah, [snip] 26454 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi victor, Like I said, I have read it, now how do I witness this ? peace, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > Body is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right > discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not > my self." > > Mind is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right > discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not > my self." > > Body and mind is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with > right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is > not my self." > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > [snip] 26455 From: Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:29pm Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi, Nori - In a message dated 10/29/03 10:03:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > Hi all, > > Somebody wrote: > > >At the moment a sight, sound, odor, taste, bodily sensation, or > mind-door > >object enters awareness, it it *too late* to first exercise > mindfulness and > >reactive "control" - it will be automatic (already determined) at > that point. There > >must be prior heightened attention and intention (with high energy - > viriya), > >a sharp readiness, and this must occur repeatedly, so that when it > is time > >for appropriate response and avoiding of harmful response, the > necessary > >conditions are already in place. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The "somebody" was me. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- > > > I don't understand why here and in the Suttas, they speak as though > much of our suffering takes place when objects enter our awareness > through the sense doors (and then clinging to them)? > > Like if I'm walking down the street, see a beautiful woman, car, > house or pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm suffering > because I desire or crave the object. Or I feel a beautiful woman, > car, house or taste pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm > suffering because I cling to the object. > > I think most suffering (in our modern world) stems from having > unfulfilled dreams and desires of living a certain kind of life, > career, etc. Having a certain social life, friends, money, etc. > > How do we guard our senses against desires like these ??? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Suffering is mental pain due to craving and aversion. That craving or aversion always arises as a reaction to a sense-door object. But don't forget that one of the most important sense doors is the mind door! Just as we can be vigilant with regard to not reacting with craving or aversion to what arises through the five physical sense doors, by letting go, by averting attention, and by not concocting further, this can be done as well with regard to mind-door objects such as thoughts, emotions, imaginings, memories etc. When we sense, due to heightened energy and watchfulness that a memory of a loss, for example, is about to arise, we can note that it is just an unpleasant memory, and let it go rather than ruminate, and cogitate, and replay it again and again with constantly increasing detail and resulting distress. ------------------------------------------------------- > > > peace and metta, > > nori > > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26456 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Nori, How do you witness what? I want to make sure if I understand your question. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi victor, > > Like I said, I have read it, now how do I witness this ? > > > peace, > nori [snip] 26457 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar2 - self-view & tapes Dear Sarah, thank you very much, also about patisambhidas and Pali, very good. I jotted down dates of tapes and ask for them when in Bgk. I do not understand , see below. Nina. op 29-10-2003 09:56 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > She also mentioned that sakkaya ditthi was the lightest’ view. She said > that other views were the same, but the content was different, eg > computers’ and things’. When there is self-view, there are bound to be > other wrong views. 26458 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar Dear Shakti, Thank you very much for your report, I was delighted to read it. I think we are going to meet in Bgk next year, looking forward, Nina. op 29-10-2003 15:08 schreef shakti op deannajohnsonusa@y...: > > It has been over 25 years since I first visited Burma, 26459 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:07pm Subject: FW: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094] Dear Sarah, this was a topic here: doing evil with ignorance of akusala. See below for just English. ---------- Van: John Kelly Beantwoord: Pali@yahoogroups.com Datum: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:27:20 -0800 (PST) Aan: Pali Onderwerp: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094] Pali - Every few days - [B094] Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 5 ? Further Readings Ex. 3. (Part 1 of 2) Raajaa aaha: ?Bhante Naagasena, yo jaananto paapakamma.m karoti, yo ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti, kassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti? The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one who does evil unknowingly?? Thero aaha ?yo kho, mahaaraaja, ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti, tassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti. The elder replied: "Indeed, great king, for him who does evil not knowing is the greater demerit?. ?Tena hi, bhante Naagasena, yo amhaaka.m raajaputto vaa raajamahaamatto vaa ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti, ta.m maya.m digu.na.m da.n.demaa?ti. "In that case, venerable Nagasena, he who is our prince or king?s chief minister who not knowing does evil, we would doubly punish him?. English: The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one who does evil unknowingly?? The elder replied: "Indeed, great king, for him who does evil not knowing is the greater demerit?. "In that case, venerable Nagasena, he who is our prince or king?s chief minister who not knowing does evil, we would doubly punish him. 26460 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Dear Julie, Do tell us more about Lynn's group. If Steve has remarks about BDL, everybody here will welcome his input. Nina. op 29-10-2003 09:03 schreef Julie, Steve and Kevin op julie_and_steve@b...: > I've actually just joined Lynn's group in > Melbourne. They are responsible for introducing me to this new language of > 'namas' and 'rupas' and I'm afraid I am a lost cause being completely and > utterly fascinated. 26461 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:25pm Subject: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi Nori, I agree with your observation. I see the desires that you mentioned as craving/tanha, particularly in terms of "May I be like this", "May I be otherwise", "I will be like this", "I will be otherwise", or other craving-verbalizations as enumerated by the Buddha in Anguttara Nikaya IV.199 Tanha Sutta Craving http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-199.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi all, [snip] > I think most suffering (in our modern world) stems from having > unfulfilled dreams and desires of living a certain kind of life, > career, etc. Having a certain social life, friends, money, etc. > > How do we guard our senses against desires like these ??? > > > peace and metta, > > nori 26462 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 11:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) - Cultivative speech and posts Hi Nori, N: > Instead of questioning posts and statements > people make, it would be much more beneficial for everybody if all of the statements and posts people made were contributing. > > e.g. ... is that your opinion? ... well this is my opinion. > > > Questioning statements people make without offering new information > benefits nobody. Even if it leads one to contemplate the subject, its a waste of time compared to just offering their view. ------------------ It's hard to argue with that. However, the thought often occurs to me; "Well I said that once on dsg, [or I saw that once on dsg], and nobody corrected it so, presumably, it was right; or were people just being polite?" In other words, it is inconvenient in the long run if, for whatever reason, the group lets wrong interpretations of the Dhamma go unquestioned. According to our home page, we are: "A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition." (end quote) If a statement is made here without being challenged, there must be an assumption that we consider it to be consistent with those ancient texts. Admittedly, where someone repeatedly makes a wrong statement, it doesn't have to be corrected every time. But if we allow readers to assume inconsistent statements are actually consistent, then we are doing them a disservice. (Just my opinion.) -------------------- N: > Also, I believe making posts on subjects that were already discussed > are good since there are many of us here who are new here. If everyone is discussing advanced subjects and there is not enough on the basics then that would not be good for newcomers and beginners. -------------------- Another very good point -- no argument there :-) Kind regards, Ken H 26463 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 0:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... -- --->Howard: > > Yes. Simple mindfulness is most of it. But that doesn't > quite fully > >describe the matter. There must be an ongoing, repeated intention > to be aware > >and not allow being swept away. This is where the vigilance seems > to come in. > >Intention, intention, and yet more intention is important in this. > ================== > "rjkjp1" Dear Howard, > A few questions: > What is simple mindfulness? > Why do you say intention is the main factor? ............ =============================== Howard: Well, in my complete post and my other posts on this topic, I've made myself about as clear as I think I can. The repeated acts of intention are preparatory and cultivational. Robert, instead of questioning me further on this matter I would love to hear your opinions on it. Even better, I would be very interested in hearing of your real-life experience with guarding the senses and its relation to what you have read on the subject. ================-.> w: "norakat147" people make, it would be much more beneficial for everybody if all of > the statements and posts people made were contributing. > Questioning statements people make without offering new information > benefits nobody. Even if it leads one to contemplate the subject, its > a waste of time compared to just offering their view. ================================================= Dear Nori and Howard, Sorry to be wasting the time of the group. Sometimes I like to be sure of the terms that are being used. For example what does mindfulness really mean in terms of the path out of samsara? We might have differing ideas about that and so I wanted Howard to explain a bit more. It is like Plato said: "If you would converse with me, please, first, define your terms." I find without these clarifications communication is limited. And so this letter might be off the point, possibly even adding to the waste. Each of us has very different accumulations and I think what one gets out of any sutta depends on what aspects of the teachings impress us most. For instance, Howard, you find that formal sitting meditation is central to the teachings. What I feel is unique in the teaching of the Buddha and the one that strikes to my heart is that on anatta, not self. Samyutta Nikaya IX (20)7 "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves." The commentary (p708 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation) notes that this means deep teachings such as those dealing with emptiness (sunnatapatisamyutta), explaining mere phenomena devoid of a being (sattasunnata-dhammamattam eva pakasaka) And the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347) The great chapter Dhammadina: 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus: "as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void [about anatta] from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days." And so this interest in anatta means that when I read the suttas more and more this aspect appears. The suttas and commentaries often talk about guarding the senses. And Howard you pointed out this can be done by having the intention to avoid having desire or aversion to what is sensed and even to avoid sense objects as much as possible. One ideally could stay in a forest living at the foot of a tree and concentrate on the breath and in this way limit the sense contacts. This is one way of guarding the senses. The way that interests me is, as I indicated above, influenced by my prediliction towards investigating anatta. Take the Majjhima Nikaya 138 Uddesavibhanga sutta. The Buddha said (p1074 bodhi)"Bhikkhus a bhikkhu should examine things in such a way that while he is examining them his consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck internally.If his consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck internally and if by not clinging he does not become agitated, then for him there is no origination of suffering or birth, ageing and death in the future." The monks asked MahaKaccana to explain this in detail. And Mahakaccana explained this with regard to the six senses and to the five khandhas. "here when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye,if his consciousness follows after the sign of formis tied by the fetter of gratification in the sign of the form , then his consciousness is called `distracted and scattered externally'. Let me explain by example in daily life. We see a nice car or pretty woman. Immediately there is desire (assuming we like pretty woman or nice cars - if not subsitute your favourite thing)of some degree. In fact there was simply a moment of visible object . What happened next was that minddoor processes formed up concepts rooted in lobha (desire). If it is not seen as it is then the processes rooted in lobha can continue on and on. Maybe the car is out of sight now but we are caught up in thought: "how can I get the money to buy that" A black one would be nice", maybe I could do some overtime at work", "I wonder if my girlfriend would like it"..it could last for days! Very natural that this happens but insight into the processes cuts through and shows what is really present: i.e citta and cetisaka, paramattha dhammas. This insight breaks up the 'story', the whole, into what is really there, which is only evanescent elements: "when the resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements (dhatus ie. paramattha dhammas), the characteristic of not-self become apparent in its true nature: Visuddhimagga xx15 Very gradually this insighting into reality becomes more and more habitual until: "perception of not-self becomes anchored (anattasanna santhathi): ..reckoned as the perception of not-self as follows, viz 'All dhammas are not self' on account of their being devoid of esssence, on account of their proceeding uncontrolled, on account of their being other, on account of their being vacant, on account of their being void and empty, becomes anchored in the heart, becomes established extremely firmly" endquote from The Udanatthakatha (translation masefield p595) Back to the sutta: Mahakaccana then explains what the Buddha meant by "agitation due to clinging" (upadaya paritassana). " Here the "uninstructed worldling" (assutava puthujjana), who regards his five aggregates as self. When his form, or feeling, or perception, or volitional formations, or consciousness undergoes change and deterioration, his mind becomes preoccupied with the change, and he becomes anxious, distressed, and concerned. Thus there is agitation due to clinging. But the instructed noble disciple does not regard the five aggregates as his self. Therefore, when the aggregates undergo change and transformation, his mind is not preoccupied with the change and he dwells free from anxiety, agitation, and concern."" http://www.abhidhamma.org/maha_kaccana.htm#ch5 To gradually wear away self view. This is the way of freedom from anxiety. If there is developing understanding of anatta then I think there is less and less concern about whether consciousness and other mental factors are deteriorating or improving, rather the interest is with what the khandhas are right now. And so the present moment becomes clearer because there is true patience with whatever is occurring. Maybe we don't like to accept that there is no one who can control. We might think we can become sotapanna if we put in much effort trying to guard against any desire or aversion. But all dhammas are conditioned and such efforts may be conditioned by self view that obscures that all dhammas are so evanescent, it might lead to the wrong path. Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking.....From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release...... Because this wrong view is tied up with tanha(desire) it will entangle more and more. Instead of calmly and patiently investigating the characteristic of the present moment one will always be looking for something better and this will condition wrong concentration. If it goes far enough then wrong release will finally occur and one will happily conclude they are now sotapanna. In my early years in Dhamma there was so much wrong effort. Trying to see anatta with the idea that dhammas (consciouness, feeling, sanna....) can be made to do this or that! Pure self view, conditioning wrong effort and wrong concentration. RobertK 26464 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar Hi Shakti, Hope you and your husband are having a good time in Phuket - it was really great having you on the trip with your keen iterest in Dhamma and non-stop energy for discussion as the rest of us dropped in exhaustion;-) Thank’s so much for sharing your comments here as well - I learnt more detail as I read your post too;-): --- shakti wrote: > > No trip to Burma would be complete without going to Rangoon (now Yangon) > to visit the famous Shwedagon Pagoda, where eight hairs of the Buddha > are enshrined. One sees the pagoda long before arriving at it's steps, > as the pagoda is 327 feet high and towers above most of Rangoon. The top > of the pagoda is capped with thousands of diamonds and other precious > stones, the cap stone being a 76 carat diamond. It is covered with > more than 60 tons of pure gold. The main pagoda is surrounded by 72 > smaller temples or chedis, most of them too crowned by golden pagodas. .... As we walked around, you asked me a question about the distribution of the relics after the Buddha’s parinibbana. Here is a brief account from the end of the Parinibbana Sutta: ***** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16a.html transl by Thanissaro bhikkhu >When this was said, Dona the brahman addressed the groups & factions, Listen, good sirs, to a word from me. Our Awakened One taught forbearance. It's not good that there should be combat over the relics of the highest one. Let's unite in concord, on friendly terms, and make eight shares. Let there be burial mounds in the various directions, many people made confident in the One with Eyes. "In that case, brahman, you yourself divide the Blessed One's bone-relics into eight equal shares." Responding, "As you say, good sirs," to the groups & factions, Dona the brahman divided the Blessed One's bone-relics into eight equal shares and then said to the groups & factions, "Good sirs, give me this urn. I will build a burial mound and hold a ceremony for the urn." They gave him the urn. Then the Moriyans of Pipphalivana heard, "The Blessed One, they say, has been totally unbound in Kusinara." So they sent an envoy to the Kusinara Mallans: "The Blessed One was a noble warrior. We, too, are noble warriors. We deserve a share of the Blessed One's bone-relics. We, too, will build a burial mound and hold a ceremony for them." "There is no [remaining] share of the Blessed One's bone-relics. They have been divided. Take the embers from here." They took the embers from there. Then King Ajatasattu Vedehiputta of Magadha built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Rajagaha. The Licchavis of Vesali built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Vesali. The Sakyans of Kapilavattu built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Kapilavattu. The Buliyans of Allakappa built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Allakappa. The Koliyans of Ramagama built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Ramagama. The brahman of Vettha Island built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics on Vettha Island. The Pava Mallans built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Pava. The Kusinara Mallans built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the Blessed One's relics in Kusinara. Dona the brahman built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the urn. The Moriyans of Pipphalivana built a burial mound and held a ceremony for the embers in Pipphalivana. Thus there were eight burial mounds for the bone-relics, a ninth for the urn, and a tenth for the embers. That is how it was in the past. > ***** > The trip was an amazing experience, it was a rich mix of visiting > pagodas or chedis, experiencing the beauty of Burma's lush landscape and > having the opportunity to discuss dhamma with Khun Sujin and other > friends. .... I’m sure we all appreciated your enthusiasm and good questions on so many different topics. .... > I feel very grateful to have had the opportunity to have had dhamma > discussions everyday with Ajahn Sujin. I especially appreciated her > kindness and marveled at her immense patience, as we asked question > after question. She was extremely generous with her time and her > willingness to share her deep understanding with us. I was amazed at > how she listened to the 'stories' that we would tell, then would cut to > the heart of the issues that we raised. ..... This was where you used the analogy of the Manjushri sword, cutting off the trails of papanca (proliferations) and cutting to the heart of the matter as you describe;-) .... >She gave us constant reminders > that 'now' can only be experienced 'now.' > > The following are a few quotes of Khun Sujin that relate to different > questions that were raised. ..... I mentioned my notes from my first trip with K.Sujin in Sri Lanka consisted of a set of brief quotes and you showed interest. They are on Zolag http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I was going to copy them here, but just checking, I see there are over a hundred! At Zolag, scroll down to ‘phrases’ and share any you like. In those days, a trip lasted several weeks and our group consisted of four! Nina wrote ‘Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka’ (which you may have picked up at the Foundation) about that trip. I like this reminder you quote about awareness: > "If not now? When?" Metta, Sarah p.s I think the dates Nina and other friends will be in Bkk are 29thJan-1stFeb and also the following weekend. It would be great if you can join us again, perhaps w/your husband? ====== 26465 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Nori, --- norakat147 wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > First, welcome back from Myanmar. Looks like you guys had a fun trip. ... Thanks, Nori. Good to be talking to you again. I always like your qus. .... > Very often you and others point out to me or remind me about Anatta > (not-self), but I must admit that these replies are not helpful to me > since I have yet to experience it. I read it in the Suttas and > everyone talks about it but it is not my truth till I experience and > understand this. For now, here "I" sit, ME, encapsulated in this > skin. My mind/cognition however... I'm not too sure about. .... I think you’re making good points and this is exactly as it is. In other words, without more development of understanding there is the illusion of ME and “I” sitting here all the time as you describe. Better that we acknowledge it and as I wrote yesterday, there are so many subtle shades of self-view and other wrong views all the time. .... >If > however, you can elucidate Anatta in any way for me, I would be > greatful. I have read the Suttas on the reasoning of - feelings, etc. > arising and passing and so therefore not-self but I don't quite > understand it. .... So we accept that there is an illusion of self at this moment, but intellectually at least, we can begin to appreciate that it is an illusion. Is the ‘self’ seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched or thought about? It can only be thought about. In other words, it’s an idea, a concept that is construed on account of what is experienced and what is experiencing (i.e seeing, hearing and so on) through the sense doors. At a moment of right understanding and awareness, it’s clear there is only a nama or rupa such as seeing or visible object, feeling or attachment appearing. No self at all at these moments. If there is an idea of a “ME” or “SELF” ‘holding’ awareness or directing or controlling it, again it’s an idea only. Awareness, like all mental factors is conditioned to arise according to complex conditions. No self to do anything. I hope this helps. You may like to read more detail in some of the posts under ‘anatta’ and ‘anatta and control’ in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Christine also asked many qus on this topic on the trip - she may be able to add more when she returns. Metta, Sarah ====== 26466 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar2 - self-view & tapes Dear Nina, Thanks for your feedback. --- nina van gorkom wrote > I do not > understand , see below. .... S:> > She also mentioned that sakkaya ditthi was the lightest’ view. She > said > > that other views were the same, but the content was different, eg > > computers’ and things’. When there is self-view, there are bound to > be > > other wrong views. ... As I wrote it, I also made a note to myself to follow up on this next time I’m in Bkk as it’s not clear to me either. This is speculative. I understood by ‘lightest’ that it meant self-view has to be known and eradicated before other deeper views could be (but as we know they are all eradicated at the same time, though gradually worn away with each moment of satipatthana). There are bound to be ideas of other people and things while there is no understanding that what is taken for self is in fact a combination of namas and rupas or 5 khandhas or dhatus or ayatanas. I hadn’t heard the reference to ‘lightest’ before and of course, I may have even heard wrong. I don’t have all the tapes yet, but will listen out for it too. Metta, Sarah ===== 26467 From: nordwest Date: Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:50pm Subject: The great whiner in my head Dear sangha, recently I read that mind would be a "compare" mechanism. So I tried to be aware of this function and guess what, this can be really great fun! You should try this, just do anything simple, like going for a late-evening walk in your neighborhood. And watch what your mind does, when there is a little wind it says " I'm cold." When the wind stops, then it says for example "Is it save walking in the dark alone?", or ten again thewind comes, "I'm cold." or "I'm tired." or "tomorrow will be lots of work, go home sleep." - Whatever it says, it is great fun to listen to it. I had a big laugh several times, about this stupid mind of mine...very healthy laughs. :) The mind is such a WHINER, if it would be a person we would most likely have said long ago, "Namo Buddha! Please stop the whining. Gimme a break!" But because we identify with it, thinking wrongly that we ARE this mind, we let it continue with this whining. But we all know, we are not this mind, nor this body. So we have to teach this annoying whiner in our head to already SHUT UP! Nothing is ever good enough for this mind. Even if everything is just great it for sure finds something that is faulty...is it sunny, it's too hot... is it rainy, it's too wet... is it a average day, it's to boring... is it a busy day, it's too hectic. haha! Try this observation yourself, enjoy the great WHINING, and have a laugh about your mind too. :0) Yours in the Dharma, Thomas 26468 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:59am Subject: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Dear Nina & All, There are 24 conditions which ‘cause’ namas and rupas to arise at this moment. These are elaborated in detail in the last book of the Abhidhamma, the Patthana. During our trip, K.Sujin was referring a lot to one of these conditions, or rather a sub-category of one of these conditions, namely pakatuupanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition). Nina writes a detailed and helpful introduction to the conditions which can be found at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Pakatuupanissaya paccaya is a very broad condition and K.Sujin was saying that everything is included in it including all other conditions and even concepts. Mike was asking before what she meant when she refers so often to ‘accumulations’ and when I asked her for a Pali term, she said ‘pakatuupanissaya’. So accumulations includes everything ‘including concepts and rupas’conditioning at this moment. Who knows the accumulations of each person and how anyone will respond at any moment? By pakatuupanissaya, accumulations can be traced back over aeons and aeons. Anything can be a condition as a result. For example, strong emotions may be a condition for awareness for one person or lobha(attachment) for another. All we can do is to encourage others to understand the teachings and ‘to understand one’s own world’. We cannot know the others. While we speculate about perceived conceit, attachment or irritation in others, the accumulated thinking or speculation at this moment can be known. There was some discussion before between Nina and I about concepts as pakatuupanissaya paccaya and what this meant when we talk about the weather or a friend, for example as condition. K.Sujin explained that the concepts represent a detailed account of realities. This reminds me of the descriptions in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary which explain what is meant by ‘going forward’, ‘eating’ and so on. Whatever we read represents realities. By ‘weather’ is meant the heat or cold or other experiences felt as a result of this condition. We use ‘weather’ as a kind of shorthand for an otherwise long detailed account of realities. By accumulations as we sat under the air-conditioning, some felt cold and others felt hot. Kamma can only bring its results, ie the kusala and akusala vipaka to experience the desirable or undesirable objects by pakatuupanissaya paccaya, formed up over those aeons. All ‘roots’ (i.e lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha), and all other cetasikas are included in this condition too. As I mentioned to Nori, there was also brief mention of sappaya sampajanna (clear comprehension of suitability)for the arising of satipatthana in this context. Again, as I understand, when we read about the ‘good friend’ or ‘suitable place’, for example, it is the sound or visible object and so on represented by ‘friend’ or ‘place’ at that moment which by accumulations conditions satipatthana. As K.Sujin stressed, there is ‘no need to think about sappaya sampajanna for an arahant’ as all kilesa (defilements) have been eradicated. As I write, I realise there is more to explore here. Given the complexity of accumulations we cannot say whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka at any particular moment. No one can judge and rupas arise and fall away so fast, even though each rupa must have the characteristic of ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’. ‘Who knows?’ K.Sujin would respond when scenarios were described. Just as Kom wrote: >The text says the only surefire way to know if its is kusala or akusala vipaka is to know the difference between the two types of cittas! Of course, this is incredibly subtle (just imagine, an unskilled wordling lready has a hard-time distinguishing between lobha and kusala - which share the same set of feelings, and the differences between these two are gross comparatively), and only the most differentiating wisdom can tell the differences.< We can generalise and say it’s akusala vipaka to hear angry words, but cannot say more. ‘No one can judge’. Again we can only generalise to see that as a rule kusala vipaka is followed by attachment and akusala vipaka by aversion. ‘That’s all!’ There are different accumulations from past lifetimes and aeons by pakatupanissaya paccaya so that the same air will feel hot to one and cold to another or the same food will taste sweet to one person and salty for another. What is ‘sappaya (suitable)’ will be different. Rupas conditioned by kusala cittas, such as the rupas which make up the Buddha’s body must be intrinsically pleasant, but it depends on the cittas as to what is seen at any moment. We can only generalise about seeing the Buddha or conversely seeing dung. In truth there’s no self, no pig and only thinking. It’s not developing understanding when we speculate or try to pinpoint as I was reminded. Jon gave the example of the story in a Thai paper a long time ago about two boys on a railway line who were playing and didn’t hear the train or whistles or angry voices and were killed. K.Sujin reminded us that there’s no need to think of two boys or people or anything. Just moments of kusala and akusala vipaka, followed by kusala and akusala cittas. Discussions on this general topic continued by various people over several days, perhaps giving an indication of the complexity (or of the accumulated moha (ignorance) on our part!). Thanks to RobM and RobertK for their help in prompting so much discussion;-) Finally, RobM discussed more details before on various conditions very helpfully (27th July), but K.Sujin stressed we cannot refer to kamma as ‘natural decisive support condition for the vipaka it creates’. They are completely different conditions, but kamma cannot bring its result without pakatuupanissaya paccaya. In other words, there are many other factors at work which affect whether a result arises. On the other hand, pakatuupanissaya paccaya doesn’t need kamma to condition a reality. This is important for understanding how lobha(attachment) now, for example, may condition lobha in the future but not necessarily bring about a result by kamma. If all lobha brought about results by kamma condition, these would not be distinct conditions as K.Sujin explained to me. She also stressed the importance of understanding the 3 rounds of kamma vatta, vipaka vattha and kilesa vatta again. Lobha is always included in kilesa vatta but not in kamma vatta unless it is kamma patha. Comments welcome! Metta, Sarah ===== 26469 From: Sarah Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:35am Subject: corny pics;) Hi Nori, --- norakat147 wrote: > > Still working on downloading the picture ... been busy, also I don't > seem to like any of my pics, will try to find one thats not so > corny ;) .... Some of us don't get a say as Chris would add - Sukin clicks and pronto, there we are for the world to see;) Any corny pic will be great Nori, and anyone else too. I'm sure James will be happy to give any assistance if required.... Thx in advance. Metta, Sarah ====== 26470 From: Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, Robert - Thank you for the detailed reply. In a message dated 10/30/03 4:03:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes in part: > > The suttas and commentaries often talk about guarding the senses. > And Howard you pointed out this can be done by having the intention > to avoid having desire or aversion to what is sensed and even to > avoid sense objects as much as possible. One ideally could stay in a > forest living at the foot of a tree and concentrate on the breath > and in this way limit the sense contacts. > This is one way of guarding the senses. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't recommend attempting to avoid sense objects. If you will recall, I likened that to the three monkeys: Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil," with ears, eyes, and mouths covered by their hands! When sitting for samatha bhavana, of course, and even at times for formal vipassana bhavana, it is useful to reduce the complexity of input, but that is different from viewing guarding the senses as closing the senses. Guarding the senses consists of an internal vigilance to not let the mind be swept away by experience. --------------------------------------------------------- > > The way that interests me is, as I indicated above, influenced by my > prediliction towards investigating anatta. > > Take the Majjhima Nikaya 138 Uddesavibhanga sutta. > The Buddha said (p1074 bodhi)"Bhikkhus a bhikkhu should examine > things in such a way that while he is examining them his > consciousness is not distracted and scattered externally nor stuck > internally.If his consciousness is not distracted and scattered > externally nor stuck internally and if by not clinging he does not > become agitated, then for him there is no origination of suffering > or birth, ageing and death in the future." > > The monks asked MahaKaccana to explain this in detail. And > Mahakaccana explained this with regard to the six senses and to the > five khandhas. "here when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye,if > his consciousness follows after the sign of form is tied by the > fetter of gratification in the sign of the form , then his > consciousness is called `distracted and scattered externally'. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. This is good. --------------------------------------------------- > > Let me explain by example in daily life. We see a nice car or > pretty woman. > Immediately there is desire (assuming we like pretty woman or nice > cars - if not subsitute your favourite thing)of some degree. In fact > there was simply a moment of visible object . What happened next was > that minddoor processes formed up concepts rooted in lobha (desire). > If it is not seen as it is then the processes rooted in lobha can > continue on and on. Maybe the car is out of sight now but we are > caught up in thought: "how can I get the money to buy > that" A black one would be nice", maybe I could do some overtime at > work", "I wonder if my girlfriend would like it"..it could last for > days! Very natural that this happens but insight into the processes > cuts through and shows what is really present: i.e citta and > cetisaka, paramattha dhammas. > > This insight breaks up the 'story', the whole, into what is really > there, > which is only evanescent elements: > "when the > resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements > (dhatus ie. paramattha dhammas), the characteristic of not-self > become apparent in its true > nature: Visuddhimagga xx15 > > Very gradually this insighting into reality becomes more and more > habitual until: > > "perception of not-self becomes anchored (anattasanna > santhathi): ..reckoned as the perception of not-self as follows, > viz 'All dhammas are not self' on account of their being devoid of > esssence, on account of their proceeding uncontrolled, on account of > their being other, on account of their being vacant, on account of > their being void and empty, becomes anchored in the heart, becomes > established extremely firmly" endquote from The Udanatthakatha > (translation masefield p595) > =============================== Yes, I'm happy with this, Robert. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26471 From: robmoult Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:13am Subject: Natural Decisive Support Condition Hi Sarah, Nina, Rob K and all, The Abhidhammaatthasangaha groups the 24 conditions as follows: - Mind as a condition for mind (6 modes - proximity, etc.) - Mind as a condition for mind/matter (5 modes) 1. Root condition (ethics - defines what is good / bad) 2. Kamma condition 2a. Conascent: cetana coordinating other cetasikas 2b. Asynchronous (temporal gap): conditioning state is past wholesome / unwholesome volition, conditioned state is resultant cittas with their cetasikas and kamma-produced rupa (both at rebirth linking and during course of existence) 3. Vipaka condition (makes vipaka cittas / cetasikas passive, not active) 4. Jhana condition 5. Path condition - Mind as a condition for matter (1 mode - postnascence) - Matter as a condition for mind (1 mode - prenascence) - Mind/matter as a condition for mind/matter (9 modes) - Concepts and mind/matter as a condition for mind (2 modes) 1. Object condition 2. Decisive Support Condition 2a. Object decisive support condition 2b. Proximity decisive support condition 2c. Natural decisive support condition / pakatupanissaya (aka accumulations) The conditioning states for natural decisive support (i.e. that which causes natural decisive support to condition something) are: - Strong past 89 cittas - Strong past 52 cetasikas - Strong past 28 rupas - Some strong past concepts The conditioned states for natural decisive support (i.e. what gets conditioned by natural decisive support) are: - Later 89 cittas with their 52 cetasikas I view the citta process as fundamental to the operation of the mind. In the past, I had always viewed natural decisive support as playing a role only in the determining or mind door adverting citta. My logic was that this is the point at which the citta-stream diverts to: - liking (leading to lobha-mula javana) - disliking (leading to dosa-mula javana) - ignoring (leading to moha-mula javana) - seeing things as they truly are / wise attention (leading to kusala) The diversion had to be conditioned by something (wasn't kamma as the determining / mind door adverting citta are kiriya). I had assumed that it was accumulations (past strong concepts, nama, rupa) and the mode of conditioning was natural decisive support. Here are my questions / problems / concerns: 1. How can natural decisive support be a conditioning factor for all 89 cittas; I can understand how it conditions the one citta that plays the role of determining / mind door adverting, but how can natural decisive support condition all of the other cittas as well? 2. Based on my understanding, natural decisive support is the keystone for morality and development; if this is true, why is it not central to the Suttas (even under the name of accumulations)? Metta, Rob M :-) 26472 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:29am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > In a message dated 10/30/03 4:03:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@y... writes in part: > > The suttas and commentaries often talk about guarding the senses. > > And Howard you pointed out this can be done by having the intention > > to avoid having desire or aversion to what is sensed and even to > > avoid sense objects as much as possible. One ideally could stay in a > > forest living at the foot of a tree and concentrate on the breath > > and in this way limit the sense contacts. > > This is one way of guarding the senses. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't recommend attempting to avoid sense objects. If you will > recall, I likened that to the three monkeys: Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no > evil," with ears, eyes, and mouths covered by their hands! > When sitting for samatha bhavana, of course, and even at times for > formal vipassana bhavana, it is useful to reduce the complexity of input, but > that is different from viewing guarding the senses as closing the senses. > Guarding the senses consists of an internal vigilance to not let the mind be swept > away by experience. > --------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Thanks for clarifying this, I sometimes skim a post and miss a key point. I think one of the things that is easy to confuse in Dhamma is the difference between samatha and vipassana. And because so many monks in the old days were skilled in both, the suttas often address and elucidate the path of the samathayanika who uses mundane jhana as the basis for insight. Thus he must live in seclusion and become skilled in all levels of jhana. However, there is another lesser but still valid path of the one who develops insight alone. And this one may or may not live in seclusion. He may or may not also develop some degree of samatha. So when we read the suttas we need to realize that some of them are addressed to monks with extraordinary levels of parami like Mahakassapa. And I think we are trying to do something beyond our capacity if we try to equal their way. RobertK 26473 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi Robert and Howard, I believe that it is not unreasonable to say there are people who choose to develop both tranquillity and insight, there are people who choose to develop only insight, and there are people choose to develop only tranquillity. And I believe that how to put the Buddha's teaching into practice is a personal decision that can not be forced upon. Robert, you mentioned that there is another lesser but still valid path of the one who develops insight alone. I would ask, a valid path to what? What does this path lead to? I am not sure what you mean by "we are trying to do something beyond our capacity if we try to equal their way". Do you mean that if we are to develop tranquillity, we are trying to do something beyond our capacity? If so, where did you get that idea? I don't see how developing tranquillity means tryng to do something beyond our capacity. I don't see how this connection can be inferred from what the Buddha taught. Again, I believe that how to put the Buddha's teaching into practice is a personal choice and that personal choice cannot be forced upon. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: [snip] > Dear Howard, [snip] 26474 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II Dear Robert, thank you for bringing this up, you are correct. I looked in Pali proper names. I shall send the correction. I have trouble with the tenses. In Pali Pr Names (p. 960) it is said that he was reborn as young Sakka, and would tread the Path of anagamis. Was he already an anagami, or still a sotapanna? I think a sotapanna. Please look at my correction. I compared Pali and Thai. The rebirth in Akanittha is a future. I tried to avoid pitfalls. Sometimes you can read it in different ways. Many thanks, Nina. op 29-10-2003 19:25 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: >>> The ³Sumangalavilåsinií², Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the > Buddha², >> Commentary to the ³Questions of Sakka² (II, no 21), gives an > additional >> explanation about the rebirth of Sakka, the King of Devas: >> >> ³It is said that when he departed from his existence as Sakka, he > was going >> upwards in the stream of life to the plane of akaniììha, because > he had >> attained to the stage of anågåmí. First he was born in the Aviha > plane [5] >> and finally he was born as brahma of the akanittha plane.² >> > ============== > I thought that sakka would still be sakka because of the longlife in > the deva world and wouldn't be born in other worlds till the future. > with respect > RobertK 26475 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: FW: [dsg] Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II, correction Dhamma Issue 14, Rebirths of the Sotapanna, Part II The ³Sumangalavilåsinií², Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², Commentary to the ³Questions of Sakka² (II, no 21), gives an additional explanation about the rebirth of Sakka, the King of Devas: ³It is said that after departing from this existence as Sakka, he will go upwards in the stream of life to the plane of akaniììha, because of his attainment to the stage of anågåmí. After his birth in the Aviha plane and so on he will finally be born as a brahma of the akanittha plane.² [5] Footnote 5: "Going upwards in the stream of life" means, treading the Path of anagami. Aviha is the lowest class of the ³Pure Abodes². 26476 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re: guarding the senses Dear James, op 29-10-2003 21:18 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Thank you for the additional sutta quotes about guarding the senses; > they are beautiful. I believe that this is one aspect of the > teaching that many of us take for granted, assume we know what it > means, but we don't really. How can you know what it means to do > something when you can't really do it, or can do it only rarely? I > still don't think I completely know what it means because I am not > proficient at it. N: Neither am I!! It is good to reflect more on it, indeed we take it too much fro granted. If there is no seeing or hearing how can we think about this terrible neighbour? Thus, the sutta refers to the senses and the mind. You used to think formerly: < I see "guarding the senses" and I imagine that one is supposed to somehow carefully control what objects come in contact with the senses, from the environment>. Here is a sutta about someone in the Buddha's time who taught that it would be better not to see or hear. Middle Length Sayings no 152, Discourse on the Development of the Sense organs. We read that Uttara said to the Buddha that Parasariya teaches the development of the sense organs thus: <"As to this, good Gotama, one should not see material shapes with the eye, one should not hear sounds with the ear.." "This being so, Uttara, then according to what Parasariya the brahman says a blind man must have his sense-organ developed, a deaf man must have his sense-organ developed. For a blind man does not see material shape with the eye, nor does a deaf man hear sound with the ear."...> The Buddha then explained to Ananda: The Buddha then explains by way of similes how fast the stopping is of what is liked and disliked. Like and dislike are very fast, before we know it is too late. But then comprehending is stressed in this sutta. The sutta deals with understanding that conditions equanimity. Also the factor understanding is very fast. But it is understanding that has been developed. J: (I wonder, how can you do this if you are often > times overwhelmed by ESP input? I don't believe the Buddha spoke to > this.) N: what is ESP input ? O, I saw that you spoke about extra sensory perceptions. But I am not familiar with this term. Some intuition? I hope Howard will add a drop more. Nina. 26477 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Dear Howard, op 30-10-2003 04:29 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > When we sense, > due to heightened energy and watchfulness that a memory of a loss, for > example, is about to arise, we can note that it is just an unpleasant memory, > and > let it go rather than ruminate, and cogitate, and replay it again and again > with > constantly increasing detail and resulting distress. N: Yes this happens very often, you describe it rightly. But even such tendency (most unwelcome) to replay it has conditions, it is fit to be object of mindfulness. It is just one of our accumulated inclinations, and it is beneficial to realize this. Nina. 26478 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: Tiika Vis 24 Relevant text Vis. 24: 24. This same meaning is shown in the Abhidhamma by the following analysis: (a) 'Knowledge about suffering is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the origin of suffering is the "discrimination of law". [Knowledge about the cessation of suffering is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of suffering is the "discrimination of law]... (b) 'Knowledge about cause is the "discrimination of law". .... etc. Pali: ayameva hi attho abhidhamme -- ``dukkhe ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. dukkhasamudaye ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. hetumhi ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa.... Tiika 24: 24. ayameva hi atthoti yvaaya.m atthadhammaana.m pa~ncadhaa vibhajanavasena attho vutto, As to the expression, the same meaning (is shown in the Abhidhamma), the meaning which is stated by way of the fivefold classification of the things which are ³meaning² (or fruit), ayameva abhidhamme vibhajitvaa dassitoti sambandho. after having classified this according to the Abhidhamma, the connection is thus shown. *** English: As to the expression, the same meaning (is shown in the Abhidhamma), the meaning which is stated by way of the fivefold classification of the things which are ³meaning² (or fruit), after having classified this according to the Abhidhamma, the connection is thus shown. **** Nina. 26479 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 10:15am Subject: myanmar Dear Sarah, I have been reflecting on this: N: Even understanding of heat and then taking it for self. Very subtle, hard to notice this. Mostly it may be unnoticed and that gets me. Nina. 26480 From: Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi, Victor - I agree with what you say in the following. In particular, whether or not the jhanas are beyond one's reach is certainly an individual matter. I have had a taste of jhanas, and that with relatively little samatha bhavana (just a few months of twice/day 20-minute sittings with a mantra). I resumed the mantra meditation recently, and I do find that I can "get into it" rather quickly - so I intend to continue with it. Some folks may not do very well with focussed meditation, but better with formal "insight meditation" combining cultivation of calm and insight, and yet others may do best with simply staying mindful at "regular times". There may even be a few who have the accumulations to succeed at such ongoing mindfulness practice without any further support (except for the calm induced by observing sila), and they are certainly in a wonderful position. I am not one of these. I need the support of samatha meditation, and, fortunately, I seem to have a knack for it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/30/03 12:38:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Robert and Howard, > > I believe that it is not unreasonable to say there are people who > choose to develop both tranquillity and insight, there are people > who choose to develop only insight, and there are people choose to > develop only tranquillity. And I believe that how to put the > Buddha's teaching into practice is a personal decision that can not > be forced upon. > > Robert, you mentioned that there is another lesser but still valid > path of the one who develops insight alone. I would ask, a valid > path to what? What does this path lead to? > > I am not sure what you mean by "we are trying to do something beyond > our capacity if we try to equal their way". Do you mean that if we > are to develop tranquillity, we are trying to do something beyond > our capacity? If so, where did you get that idea? > > I don't see how developing tranquillity means tryng to do something > beyond our capacity. I don't see how this connection can be > inferred from what the Buddha taught. > > Again, I believe that how to put the Buddha's teaching into practice > is a personal choice and that personal choice cannot be forced upon. > > Peace, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26481 From: Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:29am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/30/03 1:16:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > >When we sense, > >due to heightened energy and watchfulness that a memory of a loss, for > >example, is about to arise, we can note that it is just an unpleasant > memory, > >and > >let it go rather than ruminate, and cogitate, and replay it again and again > >with > >constantly increasing detail and resulting distress. > N: Yes this happens very often, you describe it rightly. But even such > tendency (most unwelcome) to replay it has conditions, it is fit to be > object of mindfulness. It is just one of our accumulated inclinations, and > it is beneficial to realize this. > ======================== I concur completely. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26482 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 0:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: re: guarding the senses --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear James, > N: what is ESP input ? O, I saw that you spoke about extra sensory > perceptions. But I am not familiar with this term. Some intuition? > I hope Howard will add a drop more. > Nina. Hi Nina, You have never heard or read the term "Extra Sensory Perception", ESP? That is very surprising. Yes, it contains intuition, but can involve many other `extra' perceptions as well; they are perceptions in addition to sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. The Buddha spoke of it in some suttas. Don't worry about it anyway, my question was rhetorical. Metta, James 26483 From: Larry Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Vism. XIV 32, 33 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 32. (v) How is it [understanding] developed? Now the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the "soil" of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely, purification of virtue and purification of consciousness, are its "roots", while the five purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the "trunk". Consequently, one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about these things that are the 'soil' after he has perfected the two purifications that are the 'roots', then he can develop the five purifications that are the 'trunk'. This is in brief. The detail is as follows. [B. DESCRIPTION OF THE FIVE AGGREGATES] 33. When it was said above 'the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the 'soil', the "aggregates" here are the five aggregates, that is to say, the materiality aggregate, the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, and the consciousness aggregate. 26484 From: Larry Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi all, FYI, "purification of consciousness" is development of right concentration as outlined in the second section of the Visuddhimagga. The five purifications (view, overcoming doubt, knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path, knowledge and vision of the way, and knowledge and vision) are analyzed in this section of Vism. on 'understanding' (pa~n~na). So the idea is to first "perfect" virtue and concentration, then learn and question about the aggregates etc., and finally develop the five purifications that are concerned with understanding the aggregates etc. We will work on all three levels. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 32. (v) How is it [understanding] developed? Now the things classed > as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent > origination, etc., are the "soil" of this understanding, and the > [first] two purifications, namely, purification of virtue and > purification of consciousness, are its "roots", while the five > purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by > overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the > path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision > of the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the "trunk". > Consequently, one who is perfecting these should first fortify his > knowledge by learning and questioning about these things that are > the 'soil' after he has perfected the two purifications that are > the 'roots', then he can develop the five purifications that are > the 'trunk'. This is in brief. The detail is as follows. > 26485 From: Lynn Cohen Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 6:44pm Subject: guarding the senses Hi everyone, I have been very interested in the discussion on guarding the senses. Just this past week or more there has been regular arising of a past memory which is extremely painful (strong feeling within the body) I am able(sometimes) to remain mindfully with this memory until it disapates. The question is, if I am mindful enough to sense its arising ( although they mostly sneak up on me! ) would it not be more beneficial to cut it off at the knees so to speak rather than allow it each time to run its full course, or would that be a type of rejection which would give rise to further painful memory { of the same flavour} later on? I am very grateful for the chance to participate with this group. With Metta,Lynn 26486 From: Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Hi, Lynn - In a message dated 10/30/03 9:50:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, lynn.cohen@b... writes: > Hi everyone, I have been very interested in the discussion on guarding the > senses. Just this past week or more there has been regular arising of a past > memory which is extremely painful (strong feeling within the body) I am > able(sometimes) to remain mindfully with this memory until it disapates. The > question is, if I am mindful enough to sense its arising ( although they mostly > sneak up on me! ) would it not be more beneficial to cut it off at the knees > so to speak rather than allow it each time to run its full course, or would > that be a type of rejection which would give rise to further painful memory { > of the same flavour} later on? > I am very grateful for the chance to participate with this group. With > Metta,Lynn ========================== I'm no expert on this at all, so you should take my opinion with a very small grain of salt. I think you should probably experiment with it. I think that to the extent that you can face the memory without your painful reaction being overwhelming, you might try to permit the experiencing of it with as much equanimity as you can muster, and then let it go. By repeatedly encountering it with increasing equanimity it seems to me that its hold on you may be lessened. But if your reaction to it is very strong, then I would say you need to tread carefully, sometimes seeing the memory coming and turning the mind away - not giving it entry, but other times allowing a slight "taste" of it. I think this is a subtle internal process that you have to work carefully and gently with, sometimes stepping back,and sometimes moving forward, but always dealing with it knowingly and intentionally. Good luck with this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26487 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:53pm Subject: Re: guarding the senses Hi Lynn, I used to have heartache/pain in the chest that came with the emotional pain in my childhood and younger years. This is how I see it: I would say that because the issue is not completely resolved, when the memory comes back, it comes with painful feeling. To resolve the issue associated with that memory, what happened in the past needs to be understood with the principle of kamma/action.* Memory comes back from time to time. If the issue is resolved, it is just the memory that comes back without the painful feeling. Peace, Victor * Anguttara Nikaya V.57 Upajjhatthana Sutta Subjects for Contemplation http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-057.html "'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'... "[This is a fact that] one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained... "Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'? There are beings who conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that bad conduct in body, speech, and mind will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker... "A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who -- whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings -- past and future, passing away and re-arising -- all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and live dependent on their actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed." 26488 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi Howard, I think that is great! Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - [snip] 26489 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Dear Nori, Craving is the second noble Truth, the origin of dukkha. You get what you want but it will change, or you will lose it, or you become older and cannot enjoy things anymore, too sick. This is more obvious suffering. The deepest suffering is the arisinf and falling at each moment of the five khandhas, the arising: The khandhas arise at birth. and have to continue in the cycle of birth and death. As Rob K quotes from the Majjhima Nikaya 138 Uddesavibhanga sutta: Mahakaccana then explains what the Buddha meant by "agitation due to clinging" (upadaya paritassana). <" Here the "uninstructed worldling" (assutava puthujjana), who regards his five aggregates as self. When his form, or feeling, or perception, or volitional formations, or consciousness undergoes change and deterioration, his mind becomes preoccupied with the change, and he becomes anxious, distressed, and concerned. Thus there is agitation due to clinging. But the instructed noble disciple does not regard the five aggregates as his self. Therefore, when the aggregates undergo change and transformation, his mind is not preoccupied with the change and he dwells free from anxiety, agitation, and concern.""> op 30-10-2003 04:01 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > Like if I'm walking down the street, see a beautiful woman, car, > house or pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm suffering > because I desire or crave the object. Or I feel a beautiful woman, > car, house or taste pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm > suffering because I cling to the object. > > I think most suffering (in our modern world) stems from having > unfulfilled dreams and desires of living a certain kind of life, > career, etc. Having a certain social life, friends, money, etc. > > How do we guard our senses against desires like these ??? 26490 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Dear Sarah, Thank you for your report. I find this one, see below, very important. I think about the long discussions here about concept and reality, but this goes to the heart of the matter. Nina. op 30-10-2003 12:59 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > There was some discussion before between Nina and I about concepts as > pakatuupanissaya paccaya and what this meant when we talk about the > weather or a friend, for example as condition. K.Sujin explained that the > concepts represent a detailed account of realities. This reminds me of the > descriptions in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary which explain what is > meant by going forward’, eating’ and so on. Whatever we read represents > realities. By weather’ is meant the heat or cold or other experiences > felt as a result of this condition. We use weather’ as a kind of > shorthand for an otherwise long detailed account of realities. 26491 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] nibbana Hi Dharam, I hope you are reading this post, if you aren't still subscribed, your friend as before, will forward it to you. But of course I must ask you not to take anything personally, nor consider it as hopeless any dogmatism that I might show. This time, you should give some explanation about any particular belief that you think leads to `liberation' and the reasons why you think they do, instead of me having to make a general comment of what they might be. You probably think that I am fixed in my views and because the Abhidhamma being a self-contained system, that this may be what makes it hard for me to accept other possible paths. This may be so, but even to decide what else to look into, it must first appeal intellectually. And so far, nothing you or anyone else has said has caused this intellectual appeal. In fact just the other day when Larry gave a link in response to Rob M's query about Vedanta, I decided to read a bit, because I admire Larry's intelligence, so there must be something to it. But no, Shankara didn't impress me at all. As I said to you before, I see some limitation with deductive reasoning, i.e. if the premise is wrong, then the conclusion would also be wrong. And I think most of us have a high tendency to cling to conclusions especially those that have come about by `sound' reasoning. And even though, Abhidhamma impresses upon me as being precise and straight to the point, there is still much room for lobha to influence one's understanding. This is why I think it is absolutely important that we constantly engage in discussions, especially with those who are more experienced; this is the only way to straighten one's views. And what do wise friends constantly remind us about? The realities which arise "now", the characteristics of these realities which we read about, can be known directly. So far I have got only vague impressions of some realities, and I rely all the time on `thinking' about them. Sometimes, I do feel a bit disappointed with myself that there is no `right effort', and at those times wrong view and lobha quickly come in and there is an attempt to `catch' realities. But this is also quickly recognized now, and seen as `conditioned'. That the understanding is still very weak, and that more pariyatti is needed. However, at the same time, I also get the impression that this `intellectual understanding' is none other but `panna' cetasika, the same when fully developed, understands the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Also I see `detachment' as being a common factor accompanying all levels of panna. So Dharam, you mention that none of us have "directly" experienced the ultimate goal; that this should give us reason to doubt about the exclusivity of Satipatthana as being the only way that leads to final liberation. So far, according to my understanding, I see no reason to believe this to be the case. You will have to convince me! Do you agree that the worthy goal is `wisdom accompanied by detachment'? I see this as possibly happening only in this moment, not in some projected goal, a consequence of holding on to some belief and performing some ritualistic practice. But perhaps you have other ideas as to why one should seek Truth or Liberation!? Now I would like to comment on part of your post. > It is the same sky. We can try to partition it and call it our own > special, particular bright area. Others may do the same, calling it > their own. That bright area is now our new reality. > > Therefore, how dare any outsider contemplating that same sky, try to > suggest a coherence, or even that dirty word - 'unity'? What a silly > notion? What a dangerous one? What a conceited one? You mentioned in your post to Robert, that you think that none of us is in the position to judge the validity or not of other paths. You suggested also that even the Buddha could not truly assess the value of other paths, since he would be limited in terms of having `tasted' just `his' particular way. When I first joined this group, someone asked K. Sujin about Buddha's ability with regard to worldly feats. "Would he be able to master the piano by just looking at someone play?" someone asked. K. Sujin answered, "Why not?" It took me a few minutes to comprehend this, but ultimately I had to agree. It may sound to you like superstition, an irrational confidence in one's teacher's wisdom and ability, one that is almost like a theist's belief in the omniscience of God. But it wasn't so, I did comprehend I think reasonably, that the Buddha was so clear minded and had absolutely no obstacles, that he could understand and do perfectly what he put his mind on to. It is easy to believe that he would be able to compose multilevel fugues that would absolutely baffle and put to shame even Bach himself. But even when it came to `physical' ability, I think there would be no hindrances and he would play the piano such that Liszt and Rachmaninoff would both feel shy. ;-) But all this is trivial, what the Buddha accomplished in terms of knowledge and understanding was so great that we cannot imagine what it could be like. We assess another's ability in terms of what *we* know and possibly can know. I too do that all the time! But I believe that Buddha was omniscient. And I think he knew in and out, all other possible views (perhaps this is what is talked about in the Brahmajala Sutta? I have not read it.). This I believe was a result in part, of his perfecting the Paramis. Through all his existence as the Bodhisattva, he had experience thoroughly all view points. …….Speculating a bit here. So Dharam, it is not about `insider / outsider', I don't think I am that petty. ;-) Like I said before, it *has* to appeal intellectually. And btw, I have read and been impressed by other religions and philosophies in the past, and I truly believe that there is so much inherent tendency to `wrong view', such that under conditions I would revert back to being impressed by them. But today, they don't and though this is based only on intellectual understanding, it would in the minimum, require sound reasoning to cause me to believe your proposition. So please give me one. When I mentioned in my last post about `unity with the All' being `ultimate conceit', I hope you don't understand this to be in the sense that it is commonly used, namely, excessive pride. I understand that people of other religions do just that to reduce this same pride and sense of `self', and I think in this sense it is quite effective. However, I was referring to mana as we know it, in the sense of `Identification'. Hope you will continue to take part in the discussions here. Look forward to your response. Metta, Sukin. 26492 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:27am Subject: Hello! Dear Kom, I hope you would still remember me. I am Janice! It is great talking to you again. I have a few questions about Buddhism. 1:Was the Kamma a person when it was still alive? 2:Is he really related to the Buddhism? 3:Does the Buiddha talk to you when you pray to him? Metta, Janice Chung (12 years old) 26493 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:30am Subject: Buddhism Dear James, I hope you are keeping well. I have not been typing to you as I went to camp and I had a holiday so I did not go to any classes. Well, I have a few questions. 1: About how many times do Buddhists pray a day? (I mean average) 2:Does every Buddhist have a prayer book with them or do they have to remember it? 3: Are there any bad spirits in Buddhism? That's all! Metta, Janice 26494 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:35am Subject: Also Buddhism James: Hey there! Thanks for your last letter. Like you said, I have trouble going on with my teachers, so can you give me some advice? Thanks very much. Philip Chui (I wrote lots of other questions about Buddhism to you, but the letter got lost when I sent it two weeks ago). 26495 From: Julie, Steve and Kevin Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 3:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Hi Nina, When I get a chance, I'll ask Lynn if she wouldn't mind filling you in about the group. Lynn is one of the main stalwarts of the group and would be much more able to answer. Have a fantastic weekend. See You Julie Do tell us more about Lynn's group. If Steve has remarks about BDL, everybody here will welcome his input. 26496 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural Decisive Support Condition Hi RobM & All, I greatly appreciate the extra detail you add and Your points and questions are always very helpful for me to consider further. I often raise points from your posts when I’m in Bkk too. Really hope you can join us for a day or so in January and anyone else as well. Also, on the bus in Myanmar, we all appreciated your post on planes of existence and the ones on compassion and the brahma viharas. On our last morning in Bkk, we discussed more about compassion with Christine & Azita over breakfast and how easy it is to avoid facting up to or knowing the present reality which may so easily be a ‘near enemy’. .... -- robmoult wrote: > 2c. Natural decisive support condition / pakatupanissaya > (aka accumulations) > > The conditioning states for natural decisive support (i.e. that > which causes natural decisive support to condition something) are: > - Strong past 89 cittas > - Strong past 52 cetasikas > - Strong past 28 rupas > - Some strong past concepts > > The conditioned states for natural decisive support (i.e. what gets > conditioned by natural decisive support) are: > - Later 89 cittas with their 52 cetasikas .... Some people may wonder how it helps to understand more about this condition. I think it helps to understand how any state or even rupa or concept in the past or now can act as condition for the citta and cetasikas at this moment. Nothing is by chance, but these states are conditioned in complex ways and knowing this can help us have more confidence and understanding of anatta. ..... > I view the citta process as fundamental to the operation of the > mind. In the past, I had always viewed natural decisive support as > playing a role only in the determining or mind door adverting citta. > My logic was that this is the point at which the citta-stream > diverts to: > - liking (leading to lobha-mula javana) > - disliking (leading to dosa-mula javana) > - ignoring (leading to moha-mula javana) > - seeing things as they truly are / wise attention (leading to > kusala) > > The diversion had to be conditioned by something (wasn't kamma as > the determining / mind door adverting citta are kiriya). I had > assumed that it was accumulations (past strong concepts, nama, rupa) > and the mode of conditioning was natural decisive support. ..... This is true, but also for all other cittas and cetasikas too. Even for vipaka cittas. .... > Here are my questions / problems / concerns: > 1. How can natural decisive support be a conditioning factor for all > 89 cittas; I can understand how it conditions the one citta that > plays the role of determining / mind door adverting, but how can > natural decisive support condition all of the other cittas as well? .... Take seeing consciousnes which of course is vipaka citta (result of kamma). Why does kamma bring its result at a particular time and manner? What determines whether kusala or akusala kamma will bring a result whilst sitting under the air-conditioner or eating the same food? Without natural decisive support condition assisting and conditioning there couldn’t be any result. Who can determine at any moment what result will be experienced or what cittas will follow? Even if attachment follows in the javana process, what determines the strength or intensity of the mental states and so on? The rupas experienced, the concepts thought about, the mind-states experienced from aeon to aeon can all determine the present cittas and cetasikas as I understand. ..... > 2. Based on my understanding, natural decisive support is the > keystone for morality and development; if this is true, why is it > not central to the Suttas (even under the name of accumulations)? .... Good Qu. I think it is central to the Suttas, but addressed in different terminology. For example, what would be the purpose of reading about ‘guarding the senses’ or developing other wholesome states if they were not ‘accumulated’ and developed. When we read about the khandhas or ayatanas, we’re reading about anatta and the conditioned nature of realities. Indeed the second stage of insight is understanding about this. I think this is the point about reading the Teachings as a description of conditioned realities rather than as a set of rules to follow with an idea of ‘self’ that can do anything. It just depends how the suttas are read and interpreted. I hope others like Nina, Robert or especially **Mike** will add comments about this qu as I’m a bit tired now after teaching and beginning to ramble. I was also planning to write out a few notes about balancing faculties etc, following up on one of your posts, but it’ll have to wait. Look forward to any further comments of yours as usual. Metta, Sarah ====== 26497 From: Sarah Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Hi Lynn, I liked Victor’s post with reminders and quote about reflecting on kamma. --- Lynn Cohen wrote: > Hi everyone, I have been very interested in the discussion on guarding > the senses. Just this past week or more there has been regular arising > of a past memory which is extremely painful (strong feeling within the > body) I am able(sometimes) to remain mindfully with this memory until it > disapates. The question is, if I am mindful enough to sense its arising > ( although they mostly sneak up on me! ) would it not be more beneficial > to cut it off at the knees so to speak rather than allow it each time to > run its full course, or would that be a type of rejection which would > give rise to further painful memory { of the same flavour} later on? .... I discussed a very similar topic with a friend in Bkk (not a member here) who had had a very difficult experience. We discussed how we tend to be caught up with our own experiences and be unaware that everyone has painful experiences of one kind or other, if not in this life, then certainly in the last or next. What seems so difficult and disturbing at the time, may be a mere ‘blip’ over a course of many lifetimes. Sometimes we may have the idea that by thinking and thinking, some issues can be resolved, but this is never so. Painful memories and experiences can only be ‘resolved’ by developing awareness and understanding of the present reality whether it be thinking, unpleasant feeling, seeing or hearing. We can never know or understand all the complex conditions which led to certain ‘events’ or realities in the past (or the present for that matter). Better to just let them go (but of course, without any idea of ‘self’ that can ‘let go’), rather than cling to past memories, even the unpleasant ones. As we’ve discussed so many times, the past has gone, the future not yet come - only the present namas and rupas can be known. ..... > I am very grateful for the chance to participate with this group. ...... Very glad you’ve joined us too and for your helpful question. Metta, Sarah ===== 26498 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... --- dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Robert and Howard, > > I believe that it is not unreasonable to say there are people who > choose to develop both tranquillity and insight, there are people > who choose to develop only insight, and there are people choose to > develop only tranquillity. And I believe that how to put the > Buddha's teaching into practice is a personal decision that can not > be forced upon. =========== Dear Victor, Yes, I certainly agree with this. However it is more complex than simply choosing to be one type or the other. =========== > > Robert, you mentioned that there is another lesser but still valid > path of the one who develops insight alone. I would ask, a valid > path to what? What does this path lead to? > > I am not sure what you mean by "we are trying to do something beyond > our capacity if we try to equal their way". Do you mean that if we > are to develop tranquillity, we are trying to do something beyond > our capacity? If so, where did you get that idea? > > ===================== In the Netti-pakarana (587) "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We at this time- so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details. Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight. Nevertheless all types of kusala - of which samatha is one of the highest- should be developed as all kusala assists insight. RobertK From Ledi sayadaw http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/individu.htm Four Classes of Individuals who encounter the Sasana (According to the Buddha as stated in the 'Puggala Pannatti' and the 'Anguttara Nikaya') ((1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual who encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse. (2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who encounters a Buddha in person, but who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length. At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain. 26499 From: shakti Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Photos of Myanmar Dear Sukin, Thanks for posting the photos. For some reason I can't seem to access them from the computers at the cyber cafes that I have tried. I'll be back home in approx. one week and look forward to seeing them then. Thanks for taking the time to post them. With mett, Shakti Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: Hi All, We have all just arrived back from Myanmar. It was a great trip. Happy to be able to access dsg again. I have uploaded some photos from our trip. Hope you will all enjoy viewing them. Metta, Sukin. 26500 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:01am Subject: Re: guarding the senses --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lynn Cohen wrote: > Hi everyone, I have been very interested in the discussion on guarding the senses. Just this past week or more there has been regular arising of a past memory which is extremely painful (strong feeling within the body) I am able(sometimes) to remain mindfully with this memory until it disapates. The question is, if I am mindful enough to sense its arising ( although they mostly sneak up on me! ) would it not be more beneficial to cut it off at the knees so to speak rather than allow it each time to run its full course, or would that be a type of rejection which would give rise to further painful memory { of the same flavour} later on? > I am very grateful for the chance to participate with this group. With Metta,Lynn Dear Lynn, I think what Victor said was good. I quoted the Majjhima 138 yesterday: " Here the "uninstructed worldling" (assutava puthujjana), who regards his five aggregates as self. When his form, or feeling, or perception, or volitional formations, or consciousness undergoes change and deterioration, his mind becomes preoccupied with the change, and he becomes anxious, distressed, and concerned. Thus there is agitation due to clinging. But the instructed noble disciple does not regard the five aggregates as his self. Therefore, when the aggregates undergo change and transformation, his mind is not preoccupied with the change and he dwells free from anxiety, agitation, and concern."" I think memories, or the feelings that go with them have no hold over us when they are seen as not self. And that will also improve the confidence in Dhamma. Nothing is too extreme or too hard when it is not taken as mine or me. RobertK RobertK 26501 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi Robert, Thank you for your reply. It seems to me that you got the idea from the commentary, not from what the Buddha taught as recorded in the Pali Canon. Let me refer to this discourse in which the Buddha clearly talked about what one should do regarding attaining internal tranquillity of awareness and insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 Samadhi Sutta Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html No where in this discourse, or in any other discourse that I've come across indicates that the Buddha taught insight and tranquillity discriminatively based on one's faculties such that he taught insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: [snip] 26502 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Dear Larry, when we read this we may believe that a certain order is meant. First purification of morality, then purification of consciousness (samatha), then purification of view. There cannot be any purification when one clings to the wrong view of self. We should look at morality as described by the Visuddhimagga: Ch I, 42, under 17 b, the guarding of the sensedoors. It refers to the M. no 27" he is possessed of this ariyan control of the senseorgans. Ariyan: not of the ordinary person. The highest way is through vipassana. Then the Vis. speaks about proper resort of the bhikkhu, proper resort as anchoring, Ch I, 51: the four foundations of mindfulness. In the same ch on morality the Vis. describes all levels of morality, including jhanas and insight: I, 140, he abandons the perception of permanence through the contemplation of impermanence. Thus, we should not have an idea of this first, then that. There are many levels of morality and concentration. No question of any purity (visuddhi) without satipatthana, without vipassana. Nina. op 31-10-2003 01:45 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > FYI, "purification of consciousness" is development of right > concentration as outlined in the second section of the Visuddhimagga. > The five purifications (view, overcoming doubt, knowledge and vision > of what is the path and what is not the path, knowledge and vision of > the way, and knowledge and vision) are analyzed in this section of > Vism. on 'understanding' (pa~n~na). So the idea is to first "perfect" > virtue and concentration, then learn and question about the > aggregates etc., and finally develop the five purifications that are > concerned with understanding the aggregates etc. We will work on all > three levels. 26503 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses, memories Dear Lynn, I like the sutta that Victor quoted very much. <"A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who -- whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings -- past and future, passing away and re-arising -- all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and live dependent on their actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed."> It reminds us of the suffering, dukkha, of being in the cycle. But the Path leads out of the cycle. In this sutta it is not only kamma that should be daily reflected upon, also old age, disease, death, separation from what is dear. The fact that such painful memories arise is due to accumulated inclinations, it is conditioned and beyond control. It is conditioned by past experiences. The more we try to push it away, the more importance we attach to it, and then the more we become entangled. It is only one moment and then gone. We thinkabout it on and on but also such moments pass. We think that these moments last, but there is seeing and hearing again. When there is seeing or hearing there cannot be thinking at the same time. If we reflect more on the momentary characteristic of our experiences it can help us to attach less importance to them, be it only on the intellectual level. As Robert said in his post: end quote. The development of understanding conditions patience with whatever occurs. Remember: it is just conditioned. This verse in the Visuddhimagga I find such a consolation: VIII, 39, explaining that The world full of people, full of worries about the stories we think of, it dissolves with the consciousness which thinks. Worries of the past have gone, now there are new worries, worry about your worry, and that goes also. Nina. op 31-10-2003 03:44 schreef Lynn Cohen op lynn.cohen@b...: Just this past week or more there has been regular arising of a past > memory which is extremely painful (strong feeling within the body) I am > able(sometimes) to remain mindfully with this memory until it disapates. The > question is, if I am mindful enough to sense its arising ( although they > mostly sneak up on me! ) would it not be more beneficial to cut it off at the > knees so to speak rather than allow it each time to run its full course, or > would that be a type of rejection which would give rise to further painful > memory { of the same flavour} later on? 26504 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:06am Subject: more on natural language, Tiika Vis. Dear Larry and friends, We read about Magadha being the natural language. I think it is good to repost Sarah's conversation with A. Sujin about this difficult subject. End quote. This is for me a key sentence:< For those with this knowledge, the word conditions understanding.> Thus, they hear the Pali word for feeling, vedana, and they have a very deep understanding of what feeling is, its anattaness, its being conditioned by which conditions, its place in the Dependent origination, etc. They know Pali already. Not the learning of a language, but understanding should be emphasized, the whole chapter is about understanding. Nina. 26505 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:06am Subject: Tiika Vis. 25 Relevant text Vis: Vis. 25. "Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law" (par.21): there is the language that is individual essence, the usage that has no exceptions, and deals with that meaning and that law. Any knowledge falling within the category concerned with the enunciation of that, with the speaking, with the utterance of that, concerned with the root-speech of all beings, the Magadhan language that is individual essence, in other words, the language of law (dhamma), [any knowledge that] as soon as it hears it spoken, pronounced, uttered, knows, 'This is the individual-essence language; this is not the individual-essence language'--[such knowledge] is "discrimination of language". [442] One who has reached the discrimination of language knows, on hearing the words 'phasso, vedanaa'. etc., that that is the individual-essence language, and on hearing 'phassaa, vedano', etc., he knows that that is not the individual-essence language. ---------------------- 25. tatradhammaniruttaabhilaape ~naa.nanti tasmi.m atthe ca dhamme ca yaa sabhaavanirutti abyabhicaarii vohaaro. tadabhilaape tassa bhaasane udiira.ne ta.m bhaasita.m lapita.m udiirita.m sutvaava aya.m sabhaavanirutti, aya.m na sabhaavaniruttiiti eva.m tassaa dhammaniruttisa~n~nitaaya sabhaavaniruttiyaa maagadhikaaya sabbasattaana.m muulabhaasaaya pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa. niruttipa.tisambhidaappatto hi phasso vedanaati evamaadivacana.m sutvaava aya.m sabhaavaniruttiiti jaanaati. phassaa vedanoti evamaadika.m pana aya.m na sabhaavaniruttiiti. ***** Tiika 25: words: avipariita: unequivocal byabhicaara : exception abhilaapa: expression. vohaara: common usage pa.tiniyata: fixed sambandha (m): connection pakaara (m): method Tiika 25 (first part ): 25. ``dhammaniruttaabhilaape''ti ettha dhamma-saddo sabhaavavaacakoti katvaa aaha``sabhaavaniruttii''ti, avipariitaniruttiiti attho. As to the expression, enunciation of language dealing with dhamma, here .... he said: the natural language, language that is unequivocal, is the meaning. tenaaha ``abyabhicaarii vohaaro''ti, tassa tassa atthassa bodhane pa.tiniyatasambandho saddavohaaroti attho. Therefore he said, ³common usage, which is normal, without exceptions², concerning the understanding of such and such meaning, there is a fixed connection, thus, a common usage of words, is the meaning. tadabhilaapeti tassa sabhaavaniruttisa~n~nitassa abyabhicaarivohaarassa abhilaapane. As to the expression, (any knowledge falling within the category) concerned with the enunciation of that, this means, concerned with the enunciation of that so called natural language, of that normal, common speech. saa panaaya.m sabhaavanirutti maagadhabhaasaa. atthato naamapa~n~nattiiti aacariyaa. This natural language is the Magadha Language. As to the meaning of this, the teachers say that it is a name. phassoti ca sabhaavanirutti, phassa.m phassaati na sabhaavaniruttiiti dassitovaayamattho. The word phasso, contact, is natural language, but phassa.m and phassaa are not, this is the meaning that is shown. na ca avacana.m eva.mpakaara.m atthi. And in this manner there is not the wrong word. tasmaa vacanabhuutaaya eva tassaa sabhaavaniruttiyaa abhilaape uccaara.neti attho da.t.thabbo. Therefore, the meaning of ³utterance² should be seen as the enunciation of this natural language by the constitution of speech. ta.m sabhaavaniruttisadda.m aaramma.na.m katvaa paccavekkhantassa tasmi.m sabhaavaniruttaabhilaape pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa, When one is reviewing that expression of natural language by making the sound of it the object, the knowledge that falls under the category of the utterance of natural language is the discrimination of language. ``evamaya.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa saddaaramma.naa naama jaataa, na pa~n~nattiaaramma.naa''ti (vibha0 a.t.tha0 718) Thus it is said, ³this discrimination of language comes to have sounds as its object, not a concept.² ca a.t.thakathaaya.m vuttattaa niruttisaddaaramma.naaya sotavi~n~naa.naviithiyaa parato manodvaare niruttipa.tisambhidaa pavattatiiti vadanti. And the sayings of the commentaries state that the discrimination of language occurs with the sound of language as object in the ear-door process and afterwards in the mind-door process. ``niruttipa.tisambhidaa paccuppannaaramma.naa''ti (vibha0 749) ca vacanasadda.m gahetvaa pacchaa jaanana.m sandhaaya vuttanti. As to the expression (in the Book of Analysis): ³The discrimination of language has a present object², it is said in this connection that after having grasped the sound of speech there is understanding. ****** English: As to the expression, enunciation of language dealing with dhamma, here .... he said: the natural language, language that is unequivocal, is the meaning. Therefore he said, ³common usage, which is normal, without exceptions², concerning the understanding of such and such meaning, there is a fixed connection, thus, a common usage of words, is the meaning. As to the expression, (any knowledge falling within the category) concerned with the enunciation of that, this means, concerned with the enunciation of that so called natural language, of that normal, common speech. This natural language is the Magadha Language. As to the meaning of this, the teachers say that it is a name. The word phasso, contact, is natural language, but and are not, this is the meaning that is shown. And in this manner there is not the wrong word. Therefore, the meaning of ³utterance² should be seen as the enunciation of this natural language by the constitution of speech. When one is reviewing that expression of natural language by making the sound of it the object, the knowledge that falls under the category of the utterance of natural language is the discrimination of language. Thus it is said, ³this discrimination of language comes to have sounds as its object, not a concept.² And the sayings of the commentaries state that the discrimination of language occurs with the sound of language as object in the ear-door process and afterwards in the mind-door process. As to the expression (in the Book of Analysis): ³The discrimination of language has a present object², it is said in this connection that after having grasped the sound of speech there is understanding. ****** (last part of section 25 untranslated) Nina. 26506 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:29am Subject: Re: Also Buddhism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > James: > > Hey there! Thanks for your last letter. Like you said, > I have trouble going on with my teachers, so can you > give me some advice? Thanks very much. > > Philip Chui > > (I wrote lots of other questions about Buddhism to > you, but the letter got lost when I sent it two weeks ago). Hi Star Kid Philip!, Thanks for writing again. I hope you are doing well. Sorry that your other letter to me got lost, maybe you can send it again later. So, you want some advice about how to get along better with your teachers. Philip, I sense that you are a very gifted and precocious child. I also sense that you are very socially mature for your age. In other words, you have a good understanding of people and the reasons behind why they do things, more advanced than your fellow students. Unfortunately, being this way also makes you very sensitive to criticism, criticism in any form. For example, if your teacher tells you that you should write a little neater, you start to feel that maybe she doesn't like you as much as before; if she doesn't agree with an answer that you give in class, you start to feel bad about yourself like you have really failed. Sometimes these feelings make you angry and sometimes they make you sad. I sense that you really want to be liked and appreciated by everyone, but you think that things don't usually go that way. So, to make up for this you act out in class, disrupt the lesson as much as possible, don't listen to the teacher, say unacceptable things so that you get attention from your friends, sometimes tell your friends that the teacher is stupid, etc. You do anything you can do so that it seems like you don't care what the teacher thinks about you, when deep down inside that is what you care about the most. Unfortunately, your bad behavior will cause the teacher to criticize you more which just makes you act out more. It will continue like this until you do something to stop it. The good thing is that you see this as a problem now and you do want to stop it. Philip, to get along better with your teachers you are going to have to try to develop two things that the Buddha taught: awareness and compassion. You need to be aware that you are very sensitive to criticism and to notice how it makes you feel when you are criticized, especially by your teachers. When you feel these strong reactions to criticism you need to remind yourself that they are too strong, and notice them until they go away. Don't blame the teacher or blame yourself for the feeling, just notice the feeling until it goes away. As time goes by, you will be able to accept criticism easier without such strong feelings. The second thing you need to develop is compassion, compassion for yourself and for your teachers. Philip, try not to be so hard on yourself or on your teachers. Your teachers really do want to help and teach you, that is why they became teachers, but you need to let them teach and help you. To do their job they have to tell you when you do something wrong; remember that it isn't personal to you. Finally, accept yourself for yourself and allow yourself to make mistakes without feeling bad about them. Nobody is perfect and you don't have to expect yourself to be perfect. I hope this helps you Philip. No one told me these things about you, I can just sense them. If I am wrong about you, okay; but I know for sure that I am not wrong about how you need to be nice to your teachers. Take care and study hard in school. Metta, James 26507 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:59am Subject: Re: Buddhism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear James, > I hope you are keeping well. I have not been > typing to you as I went to camp and I had a holiday so > I did not go to any classes. Well, I have a few > questions. > > 1: About how many times do Buddhists pray a day? > (I mean average) > 2:Does every Buddhist have a prayer book with > them or do they have to remember it? > 3: Are there any bad spirits in Buddhism? > That's all! > Metta, > Janice >Hi Star Kid Janice! Thank you for the well wishes, I am keeping well. I hope you are keeping well also. It is okay that you haven't written to me for a while. I hope that you enjoyed camp and your holiday. Janice, it is hard for me to answer your questions about praying and prayer books because there are a lot of different kinds of Buddhists in the world. Some pray and have prayer books and some don't. I am not the type of Buddhist who prays and has a prayer book so I don't know a whole lot of details about those Buddhists who do. I couldn't tell you how many times they pray and if they memorize prayers. However, I do know that Buddhist monks, in every type of Buddhism I can think of, do have certain prayers, called chants, and they do have them memorized. At my temple they did them twice a day, in the morning and in the evening, and they lasted for half an hour. They were in another language, Pali, which the monks had to learn in special schools for monks. When I was at the temple during those times I would also chant with the monks (they had books I could follow) and I would do that for the entire half hour, on my knees…it was very painful! ;-) Yes, there are bad spirits in Buddhism. Before the Buddha was enlightened, and when he would stay in the woods alone at night, he would become terrified of every little sound he would hear. But he learned to overcome his fear by observing it until it went away. He also told his monks to not to attempt to meditate in any place that was haunted. After he was enlightened, one bad spirit named Mara would come to visit him and his monks. Buddhists don't believe in souls, like Christians, but they do believe in non-material entities, some of them bad, which can move from one dimension to another. But they can't hurt you physically, they can just scare you if you let them. Know them as just silly spirits and they will go away. Hope this answers your questions. Take care and study hard in school. Metta, James 26508 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Nori --- norakat147 wrote: > Hi James, ... > I agree with you on that, but like you have said later in your post > the gross manifestations are experienced very often throughout the > day; these, I think you will agree, should be recognized by > continuous awareness upon the body throughout the day. This I think > is very important to emphasize especially for those starting out on > Satipatthana who have so many gross manifestations, they cannot > even > begin to concentrate on the more subtle ones, or the mechanism in > itself during sitting meditation. As a fellow beginner when it comes to satipatthana, and I like your frank approach and I agree that there is so much that goes on that is not the object of awareness. However, as it has been explained to me, the immediate goal is not *continuous* awareness or anything like it, but *any* awareness as long as it is true (correct) awareness. For this we need to know in some detail what awareness is, what it's object can be, what brings about its arising and how it can be known or recongnised if it arises. Jon 26509 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:58pm Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Nori --- norakat147 wrote: > Hi all, ... > I don't understand why here and in the Suttas, they speak as though > much of our suffering takes place when objects enter our awareness > through the sense doors (and then clinging to them)? > > Like if I'm walking down the street, see a beautiful woman, car, > house or pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm suffering > because I desire or crave the object. Or I feel a beautiful woman, > car, house or taste pastries in the window and all of a sudden I'm > suffering because I cling to the object. > > I think most suffering (in our modern world) stems from having > unfulfilled dreams and desires of living a certain kind of life, > career, etc. Having a certain social life, friends, money, etc. > > How do we guard our senses against desires like these ??? A good question. But first, we should understand that *all* dhammas are suffering in the ultimate sense, since this term 'suffering' refers not only to the fact that our wishes cannot be realised but also to the fundamental nature of all dhammas and of existence as we know it. Thus it is not just the 'desirable objects' and our 'sense desires' that are the 'culprits' here. These sense desires (attachments) are deeply ingrained in us (mostly they are latent and not apparent) and cannot be 'dealt with' by awareness at the beginning level. We are going to have to learn to live with them for some time yet! However, the immediate task remains the development of awareness as you identified in your earlier post. Jon 26510 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Dear Victor, I wouldn't like to comment on this sutta as I don't have the commentary to it. What we agree on is that there are differences in accumulations of beings. I am content that the commentaries are right in their explanations of the different capacity of beings, and that insight is what should be stressed at these times. If one has right understanding of what samatha entails then if that is developed too, then wonderful. RobertK --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Thank you for your reply. It seems to me that you got the idea from > the commentary, not from what the Buddha taught as recorded in the > Pali Canon. > > Let me refer to this discourse in which the Buddha clearly talked > about what one should do regarding attaining internal tranquillity > of awareness and insight into phenomena through heightened > discernment. > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html > > No where in this discourse, or in any other discourse that I've come > across indicates that the Buddha taught insight and tranquillity > discriminatively based on one's faculties such that he taught > insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. > > Your comments are appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor 26511 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Photos of Myanmar dear sukin, thanks forthe photos of Myanmar, they are great. Currently awaiting plane for Australia. The northern trip was good. More on that later, sorry missed you at breakfast at Marriot with Chris and Betty, conditions rule OK. Hope all goes well, and thank you again for being a kalayanamita. Patience [have learnt a little more about patience since my trip], courage and good cheer, Azita. ps hello Shakti -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > Thanks for posting the photos. > > 26512 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi Robert, Thank you for your reply. I don't think I have been discussing with you whether there are differences in accumulations of beings. So I don't think it is true to say that what we agree on is that there are differences in accumulations of beings. Regarding what the Buddha taught in Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 Samadhi Sutta Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html if you have any doubt about the Buddha's teaching in the discourse, or if there is anything about what the Buddha said in the discourse that you don't understand or agree with, we can discuss it further. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Victor, [snip] 26513 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Photos of Myanmar Hi Azita and Shakti, I am glad you appreciate the photos, though I would have prefered to retouch them in a photo editing program first. Thankyou for your company during the trip, and Shakti, I loved your summary. :-) And like Sarah, I was quite inspired by your enthusiasm for and understanding of K. Sujin's words. Please do take a more active part on the list, I am quite certain that you will make positive contribution. Look forward to seeing both of you and everyone else again in the future. BTW, I am sorry to report that the Keang Krajan trip has been cancelled. :-(( But we will be having discussions at the foundation anyway, and Jon, Sarah, Nina and Lodevijk will be here. So hope you can make it. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > dear sukin, > > thanks forthe photos of Myanmar, they are great. > > Currently awaiting plane for Australia. The northern trip was > good. More on that later, sorry missed you at breakfast at Marriot > with Chris and Betty, conditions rule OK. > > Hope all goes well, and thank you again for being a kalayanamita. > > Patience [have learnt a little more about patience since my > trip], courage and good cheer, > > Azita. > > ps hello Shakti > > > -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti > wrote: > > Dear Sukin, > > > > Thanks for posting the photos. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > 26514 From: Lynn Cohen Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Hi Nina, I am Lynn from the abhidhamma group of which Julie is a member. We started off just running meditation evenings after our teacher ( a monk) went back to Sri Lanka. He had given us some instruction on Abhidhamma. After we found your teachings on line we were so enthusiastic we decided to keep going! We eventually opened the class to new members( of which Julie is one) At the moment we are studying Abhidhamma in Daily Life. We meet every Tuesday evening for study and discussion.With Metta, Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. > Dear Julie, > Do tell us more about Lynn's group. If Steve has remarks about BDL, > everybody here will welcome his input. > Nina. > op 29-10-2003 09:03 schreef Julie, Steve and Kevin op > julie_and_steve@b...: > > > I've actually just joined Lynn's group in > > Melbourne. They are responsible for introducing me to this new language of > > 'namas' and 'rupas' and I'm afraid I am a lost cause being completely and > > utterly fascinated. > 26515 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Luck?...Kamma? Dear James, I'm still thinking about the words "luck" and "kamma".I mean why do people think four-leaf clovers are lucky? Did the Buddha think four-leaf clovers were lucky? I was wondering, did you read my letter on the 11th of October, because I didn't see any reply . But it doesn't matter if you're busy. Metta, Sandy. 26516 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 1:17am Subject: Re: According to the Buddha, there isn't such thing as luck! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thankyou for the reply. > So if the Buddha does not believe in luck, did the > Buddha do things that are good and not bad? > Why do people have to do good things to want good > things to happen to themselves? Is this one of the > teachings from the Buddha? > > Yes, I did know that King Tut is actually a boy > king! Did you take any photos of his treasures? > And what treasures did he have? > > Metta, > Sandy Hi Star Kid Sandy! Sorry I didn't reply to this letter earlier. I think I read it and intended to answer it and then it got buried in some other posts and it slipped my mind. I think that someone else in this group, a man named Michael, wrote to me some questions about the pyramids and I lost that post also. I don't have a fast Internet connection here in Cairo so I can't go through pages and pages of posts when I lose track…unless I am told exactly where to go. I hope that anyone will forgive me if I haven't replied to his/her post. Okay, now to answer your questions: Yes, the Buddha only did things that were good; he didn't do things that were bad. This can't be said about most religious leaders, many of them sometimes do bad things, and so it is quite significant that for forty years the Buddha never had a weak or selfish moment. People have to do good things to get good results, that is the law of karma. Yes, this is something that the Buddha taught. But it really isn't as complicated as it sounds, the Buddha made it easy to understand. He taught that each person should do at least five things to have a happy life and good karma: 1. Don't lie; 2. Don't Steal; 3. Don't kill; 4. Don't drink alcohol or take drugs; 5. Don't commit adultery. Sounds pretty simple doesn't it? Well, these five things are what most people are not able to follow. The world would be a perfect place if everyone followed these five rules. I didn't take any photos of King Tut because I had a new digital camera with me and I didn't know how to turn off the flash! Hehehe They don't allow flash photography in the museum. I may go back again soon, it is getting cooler outside (and the museum is predominately not air conditioned, ugh!), and take some photos. Now I know how to turn off the flash! ;-). He had all kinds of treasures: gold and jewel necklaces, g&j rings, g&j waist wraps, gold finger and toe coverings, gold shoes, etc. Too many things to list. His sarcophagus was also gold and jewel encrusted. Egypt used to be a very rich land, now it is very poor. Just goes to show how things change. Take care and study hard in school. Metta, James 26517 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 1:25am Subject: Re: Luck?...Kamma? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > I'm still thinking about the words "luck" and > "kamma".I mean why do people think four-leaf clovers > are lucky? > Did the Buddha think four-leaf clovers were lucky? > I was wondering, did you read my letter on the 11th of > October, because I didn't see any reply . But it > doesn't matter if you're busy. > > Metta, Sandy. Hi Star Kid Sandy! I replied to your other letter, so now I will reply to this one. I think that people believe that four-leaf clovers are lucky because they are rare. It takes some looking around to find one (though with genetic engineering I believe that they have figured out how to grow them by the hundreds...cheaters! ;-). No, the Buddha didn't think that four-leaf clovers where lucky. Actually, I doubt that he even saw a four-leaf clover because he lived in India and they don't grow there. They only grow is wet climates like Ireland and Scotland (and other wet parts of the world); India is predominately dry for most of the year and then gets a lot of rain once a year. But either way, he didn't believe that any sort of object could be lucky. Take care. Metta, James 26518 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: ...An act of consciousness is a knowing of an object via an activated sense door. .Neither the knowing, nor the known, nor the sense-door activation occur other than as aspects of an act of consciousness. But the act of consciousness, itself, is an event, an occurrence, arising only in dependence on its aspects of knowing, known, and sensory doorway, and in dependence on the coming together of earlier conditions, including sankhara, and, before that, avijja. So it is completely a fleeting, conditioned event, dependent on other equally empty phenomena. ... A moment of seeing is an act of consciousness which is the knowing of a visible object via the eye door. There is no knowing of the entire act of seeing at that time, for that would involve a double object. But after the moment of seeing, there could follow an awareness of that just-passed moment of seeing. BTW, Jon, I'll ask you also: Do you find this discussion helping move you towards enlightenment? Or is it just a kind of psychological theorizing we are engaging in? (I think the latter!) ----------------------------------------------------- Jon: You ask whether I think discussion about moments of consciousness can be helpful in developing the path. I believe the answer is clearly Yes. On my reading of the teachings, a proper intellectual grasp of awareness and insight, of the conditions for their development, and the phenomena that can be their object (and also what cannot be their object) is a necessary prerequisite for awareness and understanding at a more direct level to arise. This cannot be gained without reading, listening, inquiry, discussion and reflection, all done repeatedly. There is frequent mention in the suttas of the importance of meeting the right friend, hearing the teachings, listening to one's teacher, considering what has been heard, etc. These are all references to acquiring understanding at the intellectual level. Without this it's too easy to simply follow one's own idea about the way things are, and this could be an obstacle to the development of the path. I notice you mention a number of times in this and your previous post an 'act of consciousness', and you give as an example 'a moment of seeing ... which is the knowing of a visible object via the eye door'. You describe the consciousness and object of that moment as 'inseparable', and you say this act of consciousness/act of seeing can be the object of awareness (I hope I have understood you correctly). According to my reading of the teachings, there is no fundamental phenomenon of 'act of seeing' and, accordingly, since it is the fundamental phenomena that are the object of awareness, there could never be awareness of such a thing. Awareness could have as object either the seeing consciousness or the visible-object, but not the composite of 'act of seeing'. In terms of the tipitaka and ancient commentaries (as I read them), 'act of seeing' would be a concept, i.e., not something having its own characteristic, like the seeing consciousness and visible-object that are the fundamental phenomena of that moment and are potentially capable of being objects of awareness. I think that to regard a concept as having a characteristic of its own, as being on a par with the fundamental phenomena that arise at that moment, can fairly be described as a form of reification, but you will no doubt disagree with this characterisation ;-)). I hope I have not misunderstood your reference to 'act of seeing/act of consciousness'. My apologies if I have -- is it something taken from the texts? Jon 26519 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge about conditions Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > [Jon:] > As to conditioning, there are many conditions applying at a given > 'dhamma' at a given moment, and not all of these concern the > relationship between the moment of consciousness and its object. It > helps to know of the other kinds of conditions at play also ;-)). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Helps for what? ;-)) Jon: Helps to give a better picture of the conditioned nature of the present moment and the fundamental phenomena of which that moment is comprised. In general terms, a better understanding of the conditioned nature to things helps to attenuate the idea of self. In the particular example of the 'act of seeing' discussed earlier, we learn that in the case of the seeing consciousness and the visible-object each of these phenomena is at that moment conditioned by (multiple) factors other than the other phenomenon. These other conditioning factors would include, for example, in the case of the seeing consciousness, kamma and in the case of the visible-object, temperature, and so many others also. Knowing this, we are less likely to think in terms of any coming together to form an 'act of seeing', a composite entity the component aspects of which are inseparable. If the individual phenomena are themselves simply conditioned phenomena they cannot 'form' into something. Jon 26520 From: robmoult Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 6:23am Subject: Karuna (compassion) for comment Hi All, Karuna arises when one perceives helplessness in those overwhelmed by suffering. When karuna arises, the mind cannot bear others' suffering and wants to remove that suffering. Karuna is the opposite of cruelty. Most people are insensitive to the suffering around them as their main focus is on themselves. This self-centredness makes the heart stiff. A stiff heart inhibits the practice that leads to positive results. Karuna takes the paralyzing heaviness away from the heart and strengthens us to be better able to face suffering when it befalls us. The motives of loving-kindness and compassion are different. When we visit a sick person, we may offer them flowers and wish them well; these are moments of loving-kindness (metta - treating others as friends). When we notice their suffering, moments of compassion (karuna - wishing to allay their suffering) may arise. Compassion is supported by the other three divine abodes: - Loving-kindness guards compassion against selecting and falling into partiality or aversion against the excluded side. - Sympathetic joy stops compassion from being overwhelmed by the sight of suffering; it relieves the tension of mind and keeps compassion away from melancholic brooding without purpose. Sympathetic joy develops compassion into active sympathy. - Equanimity guards compassion from being caught up in uncontrolled emotion and thereby guides compassion's focus. Aversion is the "near enemy" of compassion; it displaces compassion through stealth. When we visit a sick person we may have moments of compassion where we wish that the person's suffering be reduced. The next moment, we may be thinking of the person's sickness with aversion or fear. The following moment, we may be thinking about aversion about the injustice of the situation. Feelings of injustice leading to aversion can arise when we feel that we are not in control of a situation. When the unwholesome thoughts rooted in aversion arise, they pushed aside the wholesome thought of compassion. The way to differentiate between thoughts of compassion and thoughts rooted in aversion is to examine the accompanying feeling. Thoughts rooted in aversion will be accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling. Thoughts of compassion are accompanied by either pleasant or neutral mental feeling. When thoughts of compassion are translated into action, we act to reduce another's suffering; perhaps we give a medicine to a sick person or adjust their pillow to make them more comfortable. There is almost always something that one can do for another person, even if it is simply "being there" for them. These actions are done with a pleasant or neutral feeling. The compassion of the wise man does not render him a victim of suffering. His thoughts, words and deeds are full of pity. But his heart does not waver; unchanged it remains, serene and calm. How else would he be able to help? Out of compassion, the Buddha often visited the sick and encouraged monks to follow his example to attend to both the physical and mental needs of the sick. The Buddha encouraged monks to instruct, rouse, gladden and satisfy the sick with Dhamma-talk. When householders give a monk a gift, no matter whether it is "mean or choice", the monk should accept it out of compassion, in order to help the householders to accumulate wholesomeness. Modern society focuses on the external, so it is natural to feel compassion toward one who is physically sick or destitute. One who understands the Dhamma focuses on the internal; they feel compassion toward all beings as all beings are bound to saµsara and subject to the first noble truth (dukkha). We should develop the skill of compassion before trying to realize the first noble truth; otherwise, we may be overwhelmed. Compassion means having our hearts engaged, not overwhelmed or broken. The Visuddhimagga explains how one can arouse compassion toward a person even though that person may be happy. This is done by imagining a criminal being led to execution. As this criminal is paraded through the streets, people feel sorry for the criminal and offer him good food as he passes by. The criminal may be momentarily happy enjoying the good food, but the people in the street feel compassion as they know his fate. We can consider that, with each day passing, we are all one day closer to our death. Though they may be momentarily happy, evil-doers are destined for an unfortunate rebirth and deserve our compassion. Lost in delusion, people jump from one state of suffering to another, not knowing the real cause and not knowing how to escape. This insight into the general law of suffering supports a foundation of compassion. Understanding kamma and vipaka can condition compassion when we are treated unjustly. When we consider that the other person will receive the results of his own deeds, compassion can arise instead of anger. When somebody speaks harshly to us, we can consider with compassion the unpleasant feelings which caused them to react so negatively and we can also consider the future negative impact on them of their current negative feelings. Karuna has the quality of delaying one's happiness. For example, at the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit realized that if he were to become a monk that he would become an Arahant in that life. Sumedha the Hermit also realized that his spiritual faculties (faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom) were very strong. Out of compassion for mankind, Sumedha the Hermit decided not to become an Arahant but rather he decided to develop the ten perfections (paramis) so that he could be reborn as a Buddha and spread the Dhamma in a future life. Sumedha the Hermit committed himself to countless rebirths and suffering and he eventually became our Lord Buddha. Once He achieved enlightenment, the Buddha could have spent the rest of His life enjoying Nibbana, but out of compassion, the Buddha embarked on a long and difficult life of teaching. It is the Buddha's greatest deed of compassion to teach Dhamma since in this way beings' greatest suffering, their being in the cycle of birth and death, can be overcome. It is due to the Buddha's great compassion that we today can develop the way leading to the end of suffering. At the moment of compassion there is calm. Compassion can be developed as a meditation subject of samatha by those who have accumulations to do so. The Visuddhimagga describes how compassion as one of the divine abidings is to be developed as meditation subject leading to the attainment of jhana. Compassion is developed for the purpose of purification from cruelty. When jhana is attained, compassion can be extended to all beings, and then it has become unlimited. When used as a meditation object, karuna should be developed initially towards persons who are in great distress; it is easy to feel compassion for such a person. One develops karuna by focusing on the phrase, "May be free for misery." Next one can proceed as in the development of metta; self, teacher, friend, neutral person, difficult person, all living beings, etc. Progress through meditating on the classes of beings at your own pace. One can even radiate karuna to a person who is committing evil deeds; we know the fate in store for such a person. Radiating compassion to one who is causing suffering creates a new type of relationship. Acknowledging suffering is the first stage; the second, more difficult stage, is opening your heart to suffering. Opening to suffering should be done slowly, otherwise our sense of purpose may be shattered by aversion, the near enemy of compassion. If one feels oneself moving from the trembling of the heart, which is normal for karuna, to feelings of aversion, then return the focus to the breath. There are six kinds of knowledge that can only be achieved by a Buddha and not Arahants: 1. Knowledge of the great compassion induced by ecstatic meditation (Mahakarunasamapatti-nana): this is the great compassion for beings in the heart of a Buddha who fully understands the conditions to which beings are subjected 2. All knowing wisdom 3. Wisdom that dispels all obstructions in the way of "all knowing wisdom" 4. Understanding the "depth of knowledge" of other beings 5. Understanding the accumulations of other beings 6. Power to create the double miracle (simultaneously create flame from one part of the body and water from another part) From our study of Abhidhamma, we see that when conditions arise, the cetasika karuna can arise in any of the sense sphere wholesome cittas and in any of the sense sphere functional cittas. Karuna cannot arise in sense sphere resultant cittas because the object of karuna is always a living person. Karuna can accompany the cittas of the fine material sphere up to the fourth jhana. Karuna does not appear in other cittas. References ========== Nyanaponika Thera, Ven. – "The Four Sublime States" Salzberg, Susan – "Loving Kindness, The Revolutionary Art of Hapiness" Sayadaw, Ven. Mahasi – "Brahmavihara Dhamma" Sujiva, Ven. – "Divine Abodes" van Gorkom, Nina – "Cetasikas" Comments? Metta (and karuna), Rob M :-) 26521 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 7:08am Subject: Re: Karuna (compassion) for comment Excellent work, RobM! RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > Karuna arises when one perceives helplessness in those overwhelmed > by suffering. When karuna arises, the mind cannot bear others' > suffering and wants to remove that suffering. Karuna is the opposite > of cruelty. > 26522 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma A Sujin: "Whatever we read represents realities. By weather' is meant the heat or cold or other experiences felt as a result of this condition. We use weather' as a kind of shorthand for an otherwise long detailed account of realities." Hi Nina, This is exactly as I see it also, i.e.: carriages, persons, and governments are realities insofar as the words "carriages, "persons" and "governments" point to the rise and fall of the complex manifestation of khandhas. I am hopeful that we are all (including Howard and Sarah in agreement on this point. The only issue now is to figure out a distinction between this use of concept and the use as exemplified by "mathematics". Or do we want to say mathematics is a shorthand for the rise and fall of realities (mostly? rupa). Larry 26523 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural Decisive Support Condition Dear Sarah, not a set of rules to be followed. I was reflecting on the purification of sila, of citta and of understanding, and thought of the text which seems to suggest first this, then that. But, how would that be possible, since it depends entirely on many conditions whether there is now a moment of developing sila, or calm or understanding. Your remark below makes this very clear. Very starnge to sit down and say to yourself: now first sila, etc. Nina. op 31-10-2003 14:24 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: For example, what would be the purpose of reading about guarding the senses’ or developing other wholesome states if they were not accumulated’ and developed. > When we read about the khandhas or > ayatanas, we’re reading about anatta and the conditioned nature of > realities. Indeed the second stage of insight is understanding about this. > I think this is the point about reading the Teachings as a description of > conditioned realities rather than as a set of rules to follow with an idea > of self’ that can do anything. It just depends how the suttas are read > and interpreted. 26524 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 0:30pm Subject: Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 > 33. When it was said above 'the things classed as aggregates, bases, > elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are > the 'soil', the "aggregates" here are the five aggregates, that is to > say, the materiality aggregate, the feeling aggregate, the perception > aggregate, the formations aggregate, and the consciousness aggregate. Hi all, Here is something on the etymology of "khandha" from Mathieu Boivert's "The Five Khandhas: Understanding Theravada Psychology and Soteriology": The term "khandha" (or its Sanskrit equivalent, "skandha") was already used in pre-Buddhist and pre-Upanisadic literature. One of the oldest Indian treatises on semantics and etymology, the "Nirukta", holds that the general meaning of "skandha" in the Veda is restricted to "the branches of a tree" since they "are attached to the tree." It is interesting to note that the word "trunk," which stands for the union of all branches of the tree, is one of the connotations of the Pali term "khandha" as well. The author of the "Nirukta" also alludes to a secondary meaning, viz. "shoulder," which is derived from the same root ("skandh" = "to be attached"), and is used in this peculiar sense because the shoulder "is attached to the body." We find a similar usage in the Pali canon: the "Samyuttanikaya" and the "Visuddhimagga" use the word "khandha" to designate shoulder. Some later pre-Buddhist texts, such as the "Chandogya Upanisad," use the word "skandha" in the sense of "branches" referring to the three branches of duty: trayo dharmaskandhah yajnah adhyayanam danam. In contrast, the "Maitri Upanisad" uses the term "skandha" in the sense of a "mass" of smoke. A similar usage of the word is found in the Pali canon: the sutta also use the word "khandha" to refer to a "mass" of fire and of water (aggikkandha and udakkhandha). This usage is wide spread in the Pali literature, for we find constant references to the "mass of suffering" (dukkhakkhandha). The word "khandha" is also used in Theravada literature to refer to the concept of "division," in the sense of a variety of constituent groups. The "Dighanikaya," for example, alludes to four "khandha"" morality (sila), concentration (samadhi), wisdom (panna),and release (vimutti). The same source mentions another association of three khandha which corresponds to the previous grouping less release. In both pre-Buddhist and Buddhist literature, the number of meanings associated with the term "khandha" is striking. However, the most important usage of the term in Pali canonical literature is in the sense of pancakkhandha, "the five aggregates." The importance of this meaning is evidenced by the fact that Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" provides only the definition referring to the five aggregates. It also must be stressed that this particular definition of the term is non-existent in currently available pre-Buddhist literature, whether Upanisadic or Vedic. Larry: Boivert goes on to make the case that the meaning of pancakkhanda is the Buddha's innovation, with somewhat "primitive" Upanisadic parallels. I think an important point for our purposes is that the five khandhas arise in experience as a group but the individual form, feeling etc. arise in experience as individuals, rather than as a group (of feeling, for example). I don't think we should attach too much philosophical importance to this word "individual". The underlying idea is the elusive, impermanent nature of experience, the "whole" of which can be analyzed into these five phenomena. Larry 26525 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 0:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural Decisive Support Condition Nina: "Very strange to sit down and say to yourself: now first sila, etc." Hi Nina, I think the idea is that sila, samadhi, and panna arise in a certain order over a considerable time. If you start out with the purification of knowledge and vision it is because you have perfected the other purifications in a previous life. For purposes of teaching children you should start with virtue, not profound insight into anatta. But I agree, once the basics have been understood and experienced, we develop all three more or less together. Larry 26526 From: Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 4:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Jon: "Awareness could have as object either the seeing consciousness or the visible-object, but not the composite of 'act of seeing'." Hi Jon, I agree that is what the abhidhamma says but does it say what is the consciousness of seeing consciousness without an object? What is the consciousness of consciousness alone? Larry 26527 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 8:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Larry, Just to clarify, the quote you gave below was mine, not A Sijin’s. Sorry for any confusion. I use quotes and try to make it clear when I’m using someone’s exact words. I make very few if any notes during a discussion, so I’m very much reporting my own understanding and impressions (always subject to change;-)), unless, like with the brief quoted conversation about Pali, I’m quoting directly from a tape. --- Larry wrote: > A Sujin: "Whatever we read represents realities. By weather' is > meant the heat or cold or other experiences felt as a result of this > condition. We use ‘weather' as a kind of shorthand for an > otherwise long detailed account of realities." .... This is what I wrote: Sarah: >There was some discussion before between Nina and I about concepts as pakatuupanissaya paccaya and what this meant when we talk about the weather or a friend, for example as condition. K.Sujin explained that the concepts represent a detailed account of realities. This reminds me of the descriptions in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary which explain what is meant by ‘going forward’, ‘eating’ and so on. Whatever we read represents realities. By ‘weather’ is meant the heat or cold or other experiences felt as a result of this condition. We use ‘weather’ as a kind of shorthand for an otherwise long detailed account of realities.< Metta, Sarah ======= 26528 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 8:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta hi victor, How do I witness/experience/realize anatta (not self)? Like in a Buddhist parable I have read somewhere Buddha said something like '... Just as a Goldsmith tests his gold by examining it, bending it, melting it, etc. ... so you should test my words.' ...well something like that. peace, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > How do you witness what? I want to make sure if I understand your > question. > > Peace, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" > wrote: > > Hi victor, > > > > Like I said, I have read it, now how do I witness this ? > > > > > > peace, > > nori > [snip] 26529 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 8:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "Awareness could have as object either the seeing > consciousness or > the visible-object, but not the composite of 'act of seeing'." > > Hi Jon, > > I agree that is what the abhidhamma says... Yes, and also the suttas. In numerous suttas the Buddha lists out the fundamental phenomena ('dhammas') that constitute this 'world', namely: - seeing consciousness, visible-object, eye-base, contact between these 3, the feeling arising from their contact, etc; - hearing consciousness, sound, ear-base, contact between these 3, the feeling arising from their contact, etc; and so on for the other sense-doors and the mind-door. Or they are given in terms of the 5 khandhas or the dhatus -- these are just the same dhammas 'cut' another way. > ... but does it say what is the > consciousness of seeing consciousness without an object? What is > the consciousness of consciousness alone? An important point. From our studies we know that there can be no consciousness without an object. But even though both the consciousness and its object are arising contemporaneously, each has its own distinctive characteristic (as well as certain characteristics in common), and whole the point seems to be that this distinctive characteristic can be directly experienced by developed awareness, and is in no sense dependent on the distinctive characteristic of any other contemporaneously arising dhamma(s). Does this make sense? Jon 26530 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 8:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) - Cultivative speech and posts --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > In other words, it is inconvenient in the long run if, > for whatever reason, the group lets wrong interpretations > of the Dhamma go unquestioned. ... > If a > statement is made here without being challenged, there > must be an assumption that we consider it to be > consistent with those ancient texts. ...But if we allow readers > to assume inconsistent statements are actually > consistent, then we are doing them a disservice. > (Just my opinion.) > > Kind regards, > Ken H I agree with you completely. Let us not allow wrong interpretations of Dhamma remain without correction. I only suggest that instead of using the strategy of questioning the statement or objects in the statement, without offering an alternative, to immediately offer the new (what is believed to be the) correct opinion in response; to lay it out plainly on the table so that all may learn from the response. peace and metta, nori 26531 From: Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Jon: "Does this make sense?" Hi Jon, Yes, it makes perfect sense. Can you describe the consciousness of consciousness? Larry 26532 From: Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Sarah: "Just to clarify, the quote you gave below was mine, not A Sujin's." Hi Sarah, I have every confidence that you reported A. Sujin's intimation correctly. Good job! Larry 26533 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry I believe I still owe you a reply on this pre-Myanmar post ;-)). --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "Is the experience of tranquillity something you aspire to?" > > Hi Jon, > > The experience of tranquility is something I aspire to identify as > a quality distinct and different from the other "Beautiful > Universals". The Buddha taught the importance of being able to identify the distinct quality of *all* dhammas without limitation or distinction. And whatever the dhamma, the same applies -- it can be known to developed awareness as and when it (i.e., the dhamma) arises, and not otherwise. Similarly, when it comes to the *further development* of those dhammas that lead out of samsara (i.e., awareness and insight), or that are a support for the development of those dhammas (i.e., other levels of kusala, including samatha), these can be developed only as and when they arise and there is awareness accompanied by panna of one level or another. So the immediate task is to know better the presently arising dhammas, including the 'boring' ones of this moment of seeing or hardness, etc, for they are all grist to the mill of awareness/insight (or, as your latest Vism extract puts it, soil for the development of insight). For this reason, I believe it would be a mistake to aspire to the development of samatha to the exclusion of the development of satipatthana. Does this make sense? > Also, I still don't have a clear idea why the Buddha recommended > samma > samadhi or what is the exact relationship between tranquility and > concentration in samma samadhi. To my understanding, samma samadhi as used in the texts means either of the following: A. In general terms, it refers to concentration that is kusala, that is, that accompanies a kusala mind-state. Depending on the context, this could be a reference to samadhi of the level of sila, of samatha, or of vipassana (or of all 3). B. As a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it means the ekaggataa cetasika that accompanies a moment of path consciousness (mundane or supramundane). A moment of path consciousness is a moment of vipassana/insight. At such moments the various appropriate path factors (including samma samadhi) arise together. As a path factor, samma samadhi does not occur without its fellow path factors arising also. So I would say that the Buddha explained the importance of samma samadhi, rather than that he recommended it, although he did of course recommend the development of all levels of kusala including samatha. Jon 26534 From: Date: Sat Nov 1, 2003 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, From CMA: "The twofold tranquility has the characteristic of the quieting down of disturbances (daratha) in the mental body and consciousness, respectively. Its function is to crush such disturbances. It is manifested as peacefulness and coolness. Its proximate cause is the mental body and consciousness. It should be regarded as opposed to such defilements as restlessness and worry, which create distress." L: First, it seems to me that a disturbance in consciousness can only be a cetasika, not consciousness itself. So what is tranquility of consciousness? Secondly, crushing disturbances seems to go along with suppression of the hindrances. Perhaps we could say the main difference between tranquility and the one pointed cetasika is that we could be one pointed about worry. In jhana both tranquility and one pointedness manifest as peace. Peace is the goal, so that is the reason for cultivating concentration (or at least tranquility). Jhana is impermanent, so that is the reason for cultivating insight. Insight is always accompanied by some degree of tranquility. Agreed? Larry 26535 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "Does this make sense?" > > Hi Jon, > > Yes, it makes perfect sense. Can you describe the consciousness of > consciousness? Sorry, I'm not with you. What do you mean by 'the consciousness of consciousness'? Jon 26536 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:58am Subject: Question for RobK on Anatta ...Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting M "rjkjp1" : > Dear Nori and Howard, > Sorry to be wasting the time of the group. Sometimes I like > to be sure of the terms that are being used. ... I find without these > clarifications communication is limited. Hi Robert, I might have misinterpreted the 'tone' of your post. Indeed there is no communication unless we agree upon the same symbols and ideas attached to them. However questions stated only to imply that a statement is of wrong opinion without offering a new opinion is a waste of time. You however are not a waste of time; I have learned much from your posts. Might I ask you a question on anatta: RobK: ... > viz 'All dhammas are not self' on account of their being devoid of > esssence, on account of their proceeding uncontrolled, on account of > their being other, on account of their being vacant, on account of > their being void and empty, ..." endquote from The Udanatthakatha > (translation masefield p595) Am I to understand that the Buddha believes that everything we do, all the decisions we make, the thoughts that we think, the feelings we feel, are all due to "uncontrolled" cause-and-effect from pre- existing conditions? ...And since all things proceed on their due course "uncontrolled" by cause and effect from preceding conditions, there is anatta (not- self)? peace & metta, nori 26537 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 3:47am Subject: Question for RobK on Anatta ...Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting M dear Nori, Thanks for your kind comments. I reply about your question: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: >> Might I ask you a question on anatta: > > RobK: > ... > > viz 'All dhammas are not self' on account of their being devoid of > > esssence, on account of their proceeding uncontrolled, on account of > > their being other, on account of their being vacant, on account of > > their being void and empty, ..." endquote from The Udanatthakatha > > (translation masefield p595) > > Am I to understand that the Buddha believes that everything we do, > all the decisions we make, the thoughts that we think, the feelings > we feel, are all due to "uncontrolled" cause-and-effect from pre- > existing conditions? ================================ We can't say it is all from prexisting conditions because there are present conditions too. This is thoroughly detailed in the Patthana of the Abhidhamma, which Nina van gorkom has written a very good book about. ============== > ...And since all things proceed on their due course "uncontrolled" by > cause and effect from preceding conditions, there is anatta (not- > self)? ================= They proceed uncontrolled by anyone and entirely due to conditions from past AND present. Another excellent book is by ven. Narada of Burma and can be obtained from PTS: 'guide to Conditional Relations'. I think anyone who can grasp these matters will understand anatta well intellectually and have a basis for furtehr progress. I much appreciate any interest in anatta. RobertK 26538 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > From CMA: "The twofold tranquility has the characteristic of the > quieting down of disturbances (daratha) in the mental body and > consciousness, respectively. Its function is to crush such > disturbances. > It is manifested as peacefulness and coolness. Its proximate cause > is the mental body and consciousness. It should be regarded as > opposed to such defilements as restlessness and worry, which > create distress." > > L: First, it seems to me that a disturbance in consciousness can > only be > a cetasika, not consciousness itself. So what is tranquility of > consciousness? Your quote from CMA [Ch II par. 5] is from the section dealing with sobhana cetasikas (wholesome mental factors). There are 2 tranquillity cetasikas, one is tranquillity of citta/consciousness, and the other is tranquillity of cetasika/mental factor. There is a very useful explanation of these mental factors in Nina's 'Cetasikas' at the beginning of Ch 31 (available on RobK's website at http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html or in the e-books section of Zolag at http://www.zolag.co.uk/). You might it useful to read. > Secondly, crushing disturbances seems to go along with suppression > of the hindrances. Perhaps we could say the main difference between > tranquility and the one pointed cetasika is that we could be one > pointed about worry. Yes, one-pointedness can be kusala or akusala, and it is the kusala version that is to be developed. (I'm not sure exactly what 'disturbances' means here.) As I understand it, it is not one-pointedness per se that is the path to jhaana; it is the development of kusala of the kind that is samatha, with which there comes the kusala one-pointedness that is necessary to achieve jhaana. > ... In jhana both tranquility and one pointedness manifest > as peace. Peace is the goal, so that is the reason for cultivating > concentration (or at least tranquility). Jhana is impermanent, so > that is the reason for cultivating insight. Insight is always > accompanied by some degree of tranquility. Agreed? Yes, but remember that 'peace' comes in different kinds ;-)). The goal of jhana is the peace/tranquillity of the total but temporary suspension of impressions through the sense-doors and the temporary suppression of kilesa. However, this should be contrasted with the peace of enlightenment, by which the underlying latent tendencies for akusala are permanently eradicated. This of course is a higher kind of peace. The jhaana practitioner sees the danger in the akusala that is conditioned by sense-door impressions; but in developing jhaana he/she does nothing to eradicate or even attenuate the latent tendencies for akusala, which are the real 'culprits' of the piece. Only by the development of insight (vipassana) to the stages of enlightenment can these be eradicated. Different paths, leading to different goals. Jon 26539 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 25 Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Thus it is said, ‘this discrimination of language comes to have sounds > as > its object, not a concept.’ > And the sayings of the commentaries state that the discrimination of > language occurs with the sound of language as object in the ear-door > process > and afterwards in the mind-door process. > As to the expression (in the Book of Analysis): ‘The discrimination of > language has a present object’, it is said in this connection that after > having grasped the sound of speech there is understanding. ..... It always comes down to the development of panna and understanding of present realities according to the degree of panna developed. I appreciate your additional notes very much. .... > ****** > (last part of section 25 untranslated) .... You mentioned in another post that you were waiting for me or something - I think that like here, you can select the parts which are of most interest and relevance. Even if there are dots or parts we need to clarify later, it’s OK. It’s very interesting to see what the Tika adds like here. Metta, Sarah ====== 26540 From: robmoult Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 5:26am Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 41-43 for comment Ethically Variable Cetasikas in Daily Life Slide Contents ============== Citta + Eye + Form -> Contact Contact -> Feeling Feeling -> Perception (Naming) Perception (Naming) -> Thinks About (Memory) Thanks About (Memory) -> Mental Proliferation Small circle (nucleus) = Ultimate Reality Big Circle (surrounding small circle) = What we think is real Area between small circle and big circle = Mental Proliferation Quotation from Honeyball Sutta (Mn18) Naturally arising phenomena --------------------------- Dependent on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling. One's reaction to naturally arising phenomena --------------------------------------------- What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. Impact of one's reaction ------------------------ With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye. Speaker Notes ============= The list of mental factors used in the Abhidhamma were taken from the Suttas. Here is an example from the Honeyball Sutta (Mn18), which gives some insight into how the mind works. The first part of this extract lists the purely objective natural reaction occurring as part of the seeing process. The next part of this extract shows how, based on feeling, one reacts to the natural process of seeing. We can see that the Sutta uses many of the terms found in the Abhidhamma. The final part of this extract gives the impact of our reaction. What this Sutta tells us is that what we think is real is in fact 99% added by our own selves. Seeing things as they truly are means to understand what is an ultimate reality and what has been added onto it by our own habits and accumulations. To draw an analogy, seeing things as they truly are means to see a TV screen as coloured dots and not to be deluded by "images" on the screen. 26541 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor Thanks for pointing me to the place we left off, and apologies for the delay in replying. You suggest starting again. I think that's a good idea ;-)). I too have a suggestion. I think we should keep the discussion to manageable-sized chunks. So please don't think I'm avoiding any of your points or sutta quotes if I don’t cover everything in a single post ;-)) You start by asking the question, 'Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi?' I think the short answer is that the Buddha taught everything that needs to be known about the path leading to enlightenment. One of the most important of these is the 8 factors of which the Noble Eightfold Path is comprised. Samma samadhi is 1 of these. To my understanding, these path factors are the factors that accompany a moment of path consciousness. They are not factors to be developed separately and individually and that somehow coalesce when they have reached a certain degree. I wont cite from the commentaries here, since I understand that you don’t accept the commentarial material. Instead I'll ask whether in your view what I have just said is inconsistent with anything found in the suttas. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > It seems to me that we are talking about different questions. > > Let's go back to the original question that I asked: > > Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi? > > To that question, I answered: > > As a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it leads to the cessation > of dukkha. > > Now, to realize the cessation of dukkha right concentration alone > is > not sufficient. However, to realize the cessation of dukkha, right > concentration, as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, is > necessary. 26542 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Dear Victor, Thank you for the sutta you gave to Rob K. You are right, the Buddha taught here calm and insight. Some additional remarks from the commentary. The first person has calm, but not insight. Now, as to the question, Co: the three characterstics are taught: dukkha, impermanence, non-self. N: thus, the Buddha teaches him vipassana, to see all conditioned dhammas as dukkha, impermanent and not self. As to the end of the sutta, it is said that the Buddha taught here calm and insight that are mundane as well as supermundane. My remark: The supermundane citta cannot arise without having developed also vipassana. In this sutta the Buddha exhorted the monks to develop both. The monk has more potentialities to do this, is in a better position, because of his lifestyle. Monks and laypeople are different, lead different kinds of lives, although I do not deny that also some layfollowers could develop samatha. I would like to study suttas the Buddha spoke to layfollowers. I quoted already the sutta on Longknee, the Koliyan (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VI, § 4.) This is about the accomplishment of faith, the accomplishment of virtue, the accomplishment of charity, the accomplishment of wisdom. I like the Upali sutta, M I, 56. Here the Buddha gave a gradual discourse to the householder Upali: We read that Upali attained enlightenment. He had the pure, dustless eye of Dhamma. The Co explains: this is used for the three Paths, but in this case for the state of sotapanna. Then Upali said that he was very busy and had to go. This phrase is often used when laypeople take leave. I like the ending, also busy laypeople can attain enlightenment. He did not stop and sit down to ponder more on the enlightenment he had just attained. It is so natural, occurring in daily life. Very much down to earth. And also before he attained enlightenment the Buddha did not tell him to sit and concentrate first. Imagine, Upali had just experienced the highest good, and then went about his business. it shows that nibbana and the supermundane cittas cannot be objects of clinging. The supermundane cittas are merely conditioned realities. Thus, Samatha is a high degree of kusala, but not for everyone. I feel more affiliated with busy laypeople, and therefore I am more inclined to quote sutttas like the above one. In other suttas also we read that the Buddha gave a . Nina. op 31-10-2003 18:26 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html 26543 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Also Buddhism Dear James, appreciating your letter to Philip, written with so much metta and compassion, Nina. op 31-10-2003 20:29 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: So, to make up for this You do anything you can do so that it seems > like you don't care what the teacher thinks about you, when deep down > inside that is what you care about the most. Unfortunately, your bad > behavior will cause the teacher to criticize you more which just > makes you act out more. 26544 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:"abhidhamma in daily life", meditation. Dear Lynn, op 01-11-2003 08:29 schreef Lynn Cohen op lynn.cohen@b...: , I am Lynn from the abhidhamma group of which Julie is a member. We > started off just running meditation evenings after our teacher ( a monk) > went back to Sri Lanka. He had given us some instruction on Abhidhamma. We meet every > Tuesday evening for study and discussion. N: I appreciate your and your group's interest very much. Wonderful you meet once a week. Here in dsg people would also be interested to hear about your discussions. Any discussion on Abhidhamma is always useful, Nina. 26545 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] concept a shorthand for a long detailed account of realities op 01-11-2003 16:52 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > A Sujin: "Whatever we read represents realities. By weather' is > meant the heat or cold or other experiences felt as a result of this > condition. We use weather' as a kind of shorthand for an > otherwise long detailed account of realities." L: This is exactly as I see it also, i.e.: carriages, persons, and > governments are realities insofar as the words "carriages, "persons" > and "governments" point to the rise and fall of the complex > manifestation of khandhas. N: I would turn this around: the khandhas are not as complex as carriages, persons. Insight is developed of nama and rupa, so that their rise and fall eventually can be realized. L: The only issue now is to > figure out a distinction between this use of concept and the use as > exemplified by "mathematics". Or do we want to say mathematics is a > shorthand for the rise and fall of realities (mostly? rupa). N: I am not a mathematicus, perhaps Howard can answer this. I do not see any relation here. Nina. 26546 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 8:02am Subject: The First Buddha Discourse Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha first preached The Dhamma called '' Dhammacekkapa '' or wheel of Dhamma to His first five disciples called Kondanna, Vappa, Baddiya, Mahanama, and Assaji in the deer park called '' Isipatana '' on the full moonday of 4th month of Buddha calendar or on the 60th day of Buddhahood as Brahma King '' Sahampati '' requested. Ananda retold his first-hand knowledge of The Buddha first discourse as he heard through his own ears from the live Buddha. Ananda answered this discourse to Mahakassapa and attenders of the first Sangha Council ( Sanghayana ). Once , Bhagava, when He was in the deer park ' Isipatana ' in Varanasi, said to His first five disciples at the foot of Bodhi-tree ( Banyan ): '' O Monks! Those who have been ordained have to avoid two extreme things which are extremely bad in terms of Way for liberation. The first is called ' Kamasukhallikanuyogo ' which arises along with sensural pleasure as boosted by Chandha Raga and Tanha. '' '' And the second is called 'Attakilamathanuyogo ' which arises along with self tortures such as sleeping on thorns, non-justifiable avoiding eating of enough food for health etc. These two extremes are to be avoided if one intends for liberation.'' '' After avoiding these two extremes, you have to hold the middle path called ' Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo ' or Noble Eightfold Path or Eight-factored Path. Following this path will already exclude two extremes. This path comprises Samma Ditthi, Samma Sankappa, Samma Vaca, Samma Kammanta, Samma Ajiva, Samma Vayama, Samma Sati, and Samma Samadhi. All these 8 factors are Magganga or parts of the path.'' '' Jati, Jara, Vyadhi, Marana, accompanying with hatred ones, departing from beloved ones, not obtaining what one wants, five Upadanakkhandha or 5 clingings are all Dukkha. Realising all these as Dukkha is the first Ariya's Sacca called Dukkha Ariya's Sacca.'' ''Kama Tanha or sensual desire, Bhava Tanha or desire for eternal life and Vibhava Tanha or desire of complete ceasation of all after death are all the cause of Dukkha and this Tanha or Samudaya becomes the second Ariya's Sacca which has to be eradicated.'' '' There is a state that completely ... free of all forms of Dukkha, ...devoid of any Dukkha ...exists as ceasation of all Dukkha ...releases all attachment and clinging ...totally deserts all Tanha hooked things ...escapes from all forms of Dukkha ...stays absolutely detached to anything. That state is called Nibbana. This state of ceasation becomes the third Ariya's Sacca. '' ' Ariya Atthingiko Maggo ' or Noble Eightfold Path or Eight-factored Path is called Majjimapatipada or the middle path, which refrains from two extremes of Kamasukhallikanuyogo or staying with sensual pleasure and Attakilamathanuyogo or staying self torturing.This path is called Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada or simply 'suffering ceasing path practice '. This Noble Eightfold Path becomes the fourth Ariya's Sacca.'' Tathagata continued.. '' O Monks! I have got eye-sight ( Cakkhu ) into these matters, knowledge ( Nana ) of these matters,realization ( Panna ) of these matters at their full length, penetrative wisdom ( Vijja ) to these matters, and a bright light that strikes away all darkness that hides these Sacca.'' '' O monks! I have got the wisdom that can reveal complete picture of Dukkha, this is Dukkha, this Dukkha has this dimension, it is not more than this dimension and it is not less than this dimension and I have got the wisdom that figures out any Dukkha.'' '' Such things which I have never known before now come to me as I have got eye-sight, knowledge, realization at full length, penetrative wisdom and the bright light casting on Sacca.'' '' O Monks! Tanha is the source of Dukkha. There are three kinds called Kama Tanha, Bhava Tanha and Vibhava Tanha. As there are six senses, there are 18 Tanha. Ijjatta ( inside ) and Bahiddha ( outside ) make 36 Tanha. There are three temporal existances of present past and future so there are 108 Tanha. I have realized all these Tanha. As I have realized I have eradicated Ditthi and Vicikiccha through Sotapatti Magga, eradicated Kama Raga through Anagami Magga and Rupa and Arupa Tanha through Arahatta Magga. I have eradicated the second Sacca Samudaya which is the cause of sufferings.'' '' O Monks! The state called Nibbana is devoid of all forms of Dukkha. I have seen it with my mind-eye. Nibbana can be ' Sa-Upadisesa ' that is when alive being realization of that state and ' Anupadisesa ' that is total extinguishment of all fire of Dukkha which comes next to death.'' '' Nibbana can be called ' Sunnata Nibbana ', or ' Animitta Nibbana ' or ' Appanihita Nibbana '. These three are states and they arise from how Ariyas see the Dhamma on their path. If they view with Anatta Sanna ( recognition as Anatta ), Nibbana becomes Sunnata Nibbana. If see with Anicca Sanna ( recognition as Anicca ), Nibbana is Animitta Nibbana and if with Dukkha, it becomes Appanihita Nibbana.'' '' O Monks! I have realized the ceasation of all Dukkha through Magga Nana, Phala Nana, Paccavakkhana Nana. This state of ceasation of all Dukkha or Nibbana becomes the third Ariya's Sacca.'' '' O Monks! The fourth Sacca is Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada Ariya's Sacca. It is Noble eightfold Path or Ariya Atthingiko Maggo. This path is to be maintained in the state of increasing amount and make abundant and proliferate and to be practised.'' '' O Monks! As long as I have not seen all these Sacca, I have not admitted that I have seen these. When I have realized all, I admit that I have realized all these Dhamma through Arahatta Magga Nana and Sabbannuta Nana. My this very life is the last life in Samsara and I definitely will not have any more rebirth.'' The first five disciples all liked the first discourse and they wailed Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! aloud. Kondanna became Sotapam immediately after the discourse and he asked for monkhood under The Buddha Sasana or teachings. The Buddha allowed him and called him '' Come on Bhikkhu '' and Kondanna became the very first member of Sangha in The Buddha Sasana. After the discourse, earth Deva wailed that '' Gotama The Buddha has preached Dhammacakkappa, which no other Satta can never ever ever can do so. This wailing spread to Catu Maharaja Deva realm, Tavatimsa Deva realm, Yama Deva realm, Tusita Deva realm, Nimmanarati Deva realm, Paranimmitavassavati Deva realm and Brahma realms. The Buddha announced that Kondanna realized Ariya Sacca through Sotapatti Magga. Since then Kondanna became '' Annasi Kondanna ''. The 1st waning day was the day for Vappa, the 2nd for Baddiya, the 3rd for Mahanama and the 4th for Assaji that they all each became Sotapams on their specific days. The Buddha preached the second discourse '' Anattalakkhana Sutta '' on the 5th waning day of the 4th month of Buddha calendar. All five disciples became Arahats at the end of the second discourse. The first five disciples were all Arahats so did next hundreds and thousands of ordained disciples all these sattas constituted Sangha group. May you all be able to realize Four Ariya's Noble Truths in this very life. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing Moderator_JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group 26547 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 11:01am Subject: Meaning in life Hello All, Got back from Thailand/Myanmar yesterday and am trying to catch up on three weeks posts - you are such a talkative lot! (among others, I appreciate RobM's Karuna post and one by RobK on aspects of anatta - I'll need to read them again a couple of times but will likely have a question or so). A few things seemed to come up again and again in the Myanmar and Thailand discussions for me - anatta as always, and vipaka. Ajahn Sujins' "In the seeing, there is just seeing" made a big impact - which led onto more 'proliferating' thoughts caused, I think, because I'm searching for a 'meaning' in life - if I can't have the 'stories', where did the meaning go? Just namas and rupas seem so boring without "me" in there co-ordinating, assessing, and trying to direct all the experiences. The best alternative to the repetitive pointlessness of existence would seem to be liberation - though surely *I* should have a nobler motive? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26548 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi all, Here are some notes by B. Bodhi and the SN commentary (Spk) on SN XII 95 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-095.html This sutta examines the khandhas using the similes of foam, bubble, mirage, plantain trunk, and magical illusion: B. Bodhi: In the context of early Buddhist thought these similes have to be handled with care. They are not intended to suggest an illusionist view of the world but to show that our conceptions of the world, and of our own existence, are largely distorted by the process of cognition. Just as the mirage and magical illusion are based on real existents--the sand of the desert, the magician's appurtenances-- so these false conceptions arise from a base that objectively exists, namely, the five aggregates; but when seen through a mind subject to conceptual distortion, the aggregates appear in a way that deviates from their actual nature. Instead of being seen as transient and selfless, they appear as substantial and as a self. BB: Spk explains at length how form (i.e., the body) is like a lump of foam (phe.napi.n.da). I give merely the highlights: as a lump of foam lacks any substance (saara), so form lacks any substance that is permanent, stable, a self; as the lump of foam is full of holes and fissures and the abode of many creatures, so too form; as the lump of foam, after expanding, breaks up, so does form, which is pulverized in the mouth of death... Spk: A bubble (bubbu.la) is feeble and cannot be grasped, for it breaks up as soon as it is seized; so too feeling is feeble and cannot be grasped as permanent and stable. As a bubble arises and ceases in a drop of water and does not last long, so too with feeling: 100,000 ko.tis of feelings arise and cease in the time of a fingersnap (one ko.ti = 10 million). As a bubble arises in dependence on conditions, so feeling arises in dependence on a sense base, an object, the defilements, and contact. Spk: Perception is like a mirage (mariicikaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial, for one cannot grasp a mirage to drink or bathe or fill a pitcher. As a mirage deceives the multitude, so does perception, which entices people with the idea that the colourful object is beautiful, pleasurable, and permanent. Spk: As a plantain trunk (kadalikkhandha) is an assemblage of many sheaths, each with its own characteristic, so the aggregate of volitional formations is an assemblage of many phenomena, each with its own characteristic. Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion. Larry: Perhaps we could say consciousness gives the impression that a person comes and goes with the same mind because of the unchanging nature of consciousness itself, while what changes is the object of consciousness and the mental body (feeling, perception, volitional formations). It is interesting that of the three "modes of knowing" (perception, consciousness, understanding) understanding falls in the volitional formations category which is illustrated by the plantain trunk which is an assemblage of many phenomena. Understanding understands precisely this, that experience is an assemblage of many phenomena, each with its own characteristic. Larry 26549 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 11:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Nori, Now I understand your question. Being inconstant, dukkha, not self is a characteristic of the conditioned, be it physical object, form, body, feeling, emotion, consciousness, will, idea, concept, thought, event, phenomenon, relation, et cetera. Now, let me ask this question: Who or what else can realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless for you except you your self? Can the conditioned realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless? No, it can't. How can what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha realize the cessation of dukkha if it itself is dukkha? Only you can realize the cessation of dukkha for your self, nothing and no one else can. Let me ask this question: Is what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha fit to be seen thus: "This is mine. This I am. This is my self."? No, what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha is not fit to be seen thus: "This is mine. This I am. This is my self." What is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Peace, Victor [snip] 26550 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:06pm Subject: Re: Meaning in life Hi Christine, Welcome back. I am not sure what you mean by "meaning in life". Do you mean a goal to realize? If so, is what is to be realized the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless? As I see it, what is to be realized is the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless. What the Buddha taught in this discourse touches me: Samyutta Nikaya XV.3 Assu Sutta Tears http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-003.html At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- or the water in the four great oceans?" "As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- not the water in the four great oceans." "Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me. "This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- not the water in the four great oceans. "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello All, [snip] 26551 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:39pm Subject: Re: Meaning in life Hi Victor, "Meaning in Life" is what I feel is lost when looking at life as paramattha dhammas and not the stories that we live in. I spend most of my life lost in the stories of self. The Assu Sutta is a great sutta, thanks for posting it - 'inconstruable beginning' and 'wandering on' - these phrases are so evocative of weariness, misery and aloneness. How fooled we are by grasping at only the happiness and sadnesses of this brief little life, and how conceited are all our self-centred little plans. If we could only realise we can't avoid experiencinge everything unaccountable, unceasing times, it would lose its attraction. (perhaps). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Welcome back. > > I am not sure what you mean by "meaning in life". Do you mean a > goal to realize? If so, is what is to be realized the cessation of > dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless? As I see it, what is to be > realized is the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless. > > What the Buddha taught in this discourse touches me: > > Samyutta Nikaya XV.3 > Assu Sutta > Tears > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-003.html > 26552 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:44pm Subject: kamma and vipaka Dear All, On the trip some of us found kamma and vipaka coming to attention more than usual. In discussion with dhamma friends, I was told vipaka is just a moment, not the whole story. Maybe vipaka is all the moments that make up the story, a million vipakas quite unrelated, and it is *self* that does the weaving of it into a narrative - my story, this is happening to me? If a part of each moment is vipaka (result), that would mean that everything that comes in through each of the sense doors is vipaka (result). (The length of samsara backwards and forwards for this to be so is a little overwhelming, don't you think?) I have two stories, find the vipaka: 1. "Don't trust your friends at dinner-time" One evening, I tasted a dish that I thought included a square piece of red dessert jelly. It tasted a little strong, a little savoury, a little strange. I mentioned this to K. Betty who had been interestedly watching. She said (with a smile) - 'it's coagulated pigs' blood'. Azita was most helpful then, covering the choking sounds, by having a nurses' discussion about the use of pigs' arteries in heart surgery. (No Azita! not helpful!) (experiencing the taste, wondering, enquiring, hearing the answer --> feeling aversion, feeling aversion, feeling aversion) 2. "Don't mess with Thai ladies when they're armed with mobile phones" The group visited an Orchid growing centre. After looking at the beautiful flowering plants, I thought I would buy some orchid jewellery. The sales assistant converted the Thai Baht to $US and I paid (not being terribly familiar with either currency, but having $US left over from Myanmar). We continued on our way on the winding mountain roads of Chiangmai in our ten seater vans. Talking over our purchases later, the ladies discovered I had spent $82.00 instead of $22.00 (but what can you expect from a farang the expressions said. Thank heavens I was one of *their* farangs!). There were seven determined Thai ladies on my bus - and that means (at least) seven mobile phones. Within ten minutes, due to a concerted team effort, the Orchid Centre had been contacted, the situation 'discussed', a meeting arranged, the bus diverted, and a refund accomplished. It was a genuine mistake - both the sales assistant and I were equally unfamiliar with the currency and the calculator functions. (happy, enjoying visit and satisfied with purchase. Show and Tell. Noting expressions, hearing about overpayment, unhappy. Very strong aversion. Embarrassment. Hope. Relief. Gratitude. happy, enjoying visit and satisfied with purchase again.) I understand, after reading discussion considering, that 'feeling' is a condition for 'craving', and craving is viewed as the root of the Round, - what can be done about 'feeling' which just seems to flare up? It was also said that the point of learning about Dhamma is to get in a positon not to create new kamma and vipaka, to lessen the strength of the kilesas (defilements). How do you do that when there is no 'we' to have a choice? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26553 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Re: Meaning in life --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Welcome back. > > I am not sure what you mean by "meaning in life". Do you mean a > goal to realize? If so, is what is to be realized the cessation of > dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless? As I see it, what is to be > realized is the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless. > > What the Buddha taught in this discourse touches me: > > Samyutta Nikaya XV.3 > Assu Sutta > Tears > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-003.html Hi Victor, That sutta is very touching to me also. It is melancholic to consider the eons of suffering we have all encountered. However, I would not say that ending this suffering is `the meaning' to everyone's lives; at least not in the way I understand Christine to be using that phrase. Some people are meant to "realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless" in this very lifetime, and some people are not. Actually, I would posit that the meaning of one's life is to realize one's karma. For example, a friend of mine here in Cairo went to see a therapist to do a `past life regression' session. She told me about it because she knows that I am Buddhist and thus believe in rebirth. Through this session, by recalling a past life that strongly influenced her current life, she felt that she had found greater meaning in this life. I could sense that she was quite sincere and credulous. The Buddha was able to see the whole picture, not only his past lives but the past lives of all those he put his mind to; we are not so lucky. The majority of us only exist in this current life with no knowledge of past lives. To use an analogy, it is like we only know one chapter of a book that has many chapters, and finding meaning is figuring out how that one chapter fits in with the rest. If this knowledge leads to the end of the book, great; however, if it leads to another chapter that eventually leads to the end of the book, that is great also. The problem is when a chapter (a certain karmic stream) is repeated again and again, through countless eons, because the lessons are never learned. That is definitely where following the Eightfold Path can help. The Buddha mainly addressed monks who were in their final chapter; we have to remember that not everyone (including ourselves) is at that point yet. I am not suggesting that anyone do `past life regression' sessions since I really don't know much about them. However, I would suggest that if one wants to learn about past lives, do what the Buddha taught in that regard: Meditate (Jhanic/Concentration). Metta, James 26554 From: nordwest Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 1:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meaning in life Isn't the meaning of human life to attain enlightenment and escape the suffering to help others to attain the same thing? Gassho, Thomas buddhatrue wrote: ... Hi Victor, That sutta is very touching to me also. It is melancholic to consider the eons of suffering we have all encountered. However, I would not say that ending this suffering is `the meaning' to everyone's lives; at least not in the way I understand Christine to be using that phrase. Some people are meant to "realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, the deathless" in this very lifetime, and some people are not. Actually, I would posit that the meaning of one's life is to realize one's karma.... 26555 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 2:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meaning in life --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Isn't the meaning of human life to attain enlightenment and escape the suffering to help others to attain the same thing? > > Gassho, > Thomas Hi Thomas, Hmmm....you make it sound kinda simple. Since you haven't attained enlightenment yet does that mean that your life has no meaning? You are looking at the final goal, I was addressing getting to that goal. Metta, James 26556 From: Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Jon: '"Sorry, I'm not with you. What do you mean by 'the consciousness of consciousness'?" Hi Jon, Consciousness as object of consciousness, distinguished from its object and accompanying cetasikas. I believe consciousness is the same regardless of object, cetasikas, sphere, plane and possibly (?) function. Am I understanding this correctly? When consciousness (A) is the object of consciousness (B) is the object of A included with A as object of B? Or would that make two objects? If the object of A is not included, then can you describe this consciousness of consciousness? Doesn't this mean the object consciousness is arising without an object itself? If consciousness can't be distinguished from its object how do we know they are two, not one? Let me know if you want more of this spaghetti. Larry 26557 From: Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, It occured to me that the tranquility of consciousness cetasika may relate to the objects of consciousness, establishing a bias in favor of objects more condusive to tranquility. Hence the 40 meditation objects. If I am undersanding consciousess correctly, consciousness itself is never in need of tranquilizing. Larry 26558 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Worrying about others (and oneself) Dear Group, There was discussion on the trip about children, parents, relatives, partners etc. who are not interested in Buddadhamma in this rare and precious human life, and much wondering about how to 'encourage' them to take an interest. Often I feel that if only I could present the Dhamma skillfully enough they would be convinced. Others talked of accumulations, conditions, vipaka - and of how even many who heard the Buddha remained untouched by the truth about reality. Can you imagine such a wasted chance? Don't we each occasionally think that if only we were born 2600 years ago, and could speak to a living Buddha in a common language, there would be no more doubts, the way to enlightenment would be assured? After all, it's only the distance in time and having to rely on translations that prevents insight from arising, isn't it? :-) In Yangon one night, the English group decided not to go out to dinner and cultural presentation with the others, and to have a Dhamma discussion with K. Sujin in her rooms. Just as we began, there was a knock on the door, and a Myanmar family, having heard K. Sujin was there, seized the opportunity to see and hear her. They were made welcome and one man wanted to know what he could do for his mother who was at that moment unconscious and dying in hospital - it seemed he had had to choose between being at the bedside and coming to see Tan Ajahn. I was thinking of things such as 'sound' being the last faculty to fade, maybe loving words or recordings of dhamma or chanting would help, maybe even gentle massage. Tan Ajahn simply said that the best thing he could do was to be a good son. I was a little puzzled by this, still am. At other times, there was discussion about things we have done in the past (this life or others) before and since we knew the Dhamma, and whether kamma and vipaka must run their course - some wondered how it could ever end - so many flickering moments of kamma and vipaka ceaselessly happening every instant, having result, engendering new kamma, result, more reaction on and on. But then ... there was Angulimala who went from multiple murderer (999 victims?) to Sotapana and on through the stages of holiness to Arahat in one life. I'm sure it would be very fair if it happened to *me* - but 999 murders and not even a jail term? I wonder what the families of the victims thought? Is panna so powerful that it can wipe out or ameliorate kammic debts? Something would have to be - if we had to experience the result of every thought word and deed there could be no liberation. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26559 From: Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 0:30pm Subject: Bouncing Messages Hi, all - I've been notified that list messages from th Yahoo groups to which I belong have been bouncing. There are a number of messages that have bounced, some of which may have been targeted at me. If I have not replied to any messages sent to me, this is the reason. I replied to the bouncing notification,which is supposed to fix things. We'll see. Hey! Maybe Yahoo is telling me I should meditate more and post less. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26560 From: upasaka_howard Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 6:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Jon - I'm replying from the web site. I'm hoping that the bouncing will stop soon, but meanwhile I'll read & respond to messages this way. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ... > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > ...An act of consciousness is a knowing of an object via an > activated sense door. .Neither the knowing, nor the known, nor the > sense-door activation occur other than as aspects of an act of > consciousness. But the act of consciousness, itself, is an event, an > occurrence, arising only in dependence on its aspects of knowing, > known, and sensory doorway, and in dependence on the coming together > of earlier conditions, including sankhara, and, before that, avijja. > So it is completely a fleeting, conditioned event, dependent on other > equally empty phenomena. > ... > A moment of seeing is an act of consciousness which is the knowing of > a visible object via the eye door. There is no knowing of the entire > act of seeing at that time, for that would involve a double object. > But after the moment of seeing, there could follow an awareness of > that just-passed moment of seeing. > BTW, Jon, I'll ask you also: Do you find this discussion > helping move you towards enlightenment? Or is it just a kind of > psychological theorizing we are engaging in? (I think the latter!) > ----------------------------------------------------- > > Jon: > You ask whether I think discussion about moments of consciousness can > be helpful in developing the path. > > I believe the answer is clearly Yes. On my reading of the teachings, > a proper intellectual grasp of awareness and insight, of the > conditions for their development, and the phenomena that can be their > object (and also what cannot be their object) is a necessary > prerequisite for awareness and understanding at a more direct level > to arise. This cannot be gained without reading, listening, inquiry, > discussion and reflection, all done repeatedly. > > There is frequent mention in the suttas of the importance of meeting > the right friend, hearing the teachings, listening to one's teacher, > considering what has been heard, etc. These are all references to > acquiring understanding at the intellectual level. > > Without this it's too easy to simply follow one's own idea about the > way things are, and this could be an obstacle to the development of > the path. > > I notice you mention a number of times in this and your previous post > an 'act of consciousness', and you give as an example 'a moment of > seeing ... which is the knowing of a visible object via the eye > door'. You describe the consciousness and object of that moment as > 'inseparable', and you say this act of consciousness/act of seeing > can be the object of awareness (I hope I have understood you > correctly). > > According to my reading of the teachings, there is no fundamental > phenomenon of 'act of seeing' and, accordingly, since it is the > fundamental phenomena that are the object of awareness, there could > never be awareness of such a thing. Awareness could have as object > either the seeing consciousness or the visible-object, but not the > composite of 'act of seeing'. > > In terms of the tipitaka and ancient commentaries (as I read them), > 'act of seeing' would be a concept, i.e., not something having its > own characteristic, like the seeing consciousness and visible-object > that are the fundamental phenomena of that moment and are potentially > capable of being objects of awareness. ------------------------------ Howard: As I mentioned in a previous post, by an 'act of consciousness' I mean "contact," and nothing more or less. In the suttas, the Buddha defines contact to be exactly the coming together of sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. This is what the Buddha meant by 'phassa'. If phassa is concept-only, then phassa is just a useful fiction, not a truly occuring event, or at least not a fundamental one. However, I don't consider it to be concept-only. I understand such an event to be fundamental. Moreover, none of its three aspects occur without the others, which is exactly what I mean by their being "inseparable." The Buddha *did* define 'contact' in the suttas to be the coming together of sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. If the Abhidhamma sees it differently, then the Abhidhamma takes exception to the Buddha's position. I'll go with the Buddha. ------------------------------- I think that to regard a > concept as having a characteristic of its own, as being on a par with > the fundamental phenomena that arise at that moment, can fairly be > described as a form of reification, but you will no doubt disagree > with this characterisation ;-)). -------------------------------- Howard: I have never experienced objectless consciousness. Have you, Jon? I've never known an unexperienced object of consciousness. Have you? In fact, is there such a thing as a sense-door activation, a sense object, or a sense consciousness ever occurrng except as an aspect of an act of consciousness (phassa/contact)? I don't believe so. As far as reification is concerned, *whatever* we dream has its own being, whether a fundamental event or a complex one, is locus for reification. But when we realize that there are no self-existent things at all, but only fleeting, interdependent, events or conditions, then we are not engaged in reification. -------------------------------- > > I hope I have not misunderstood your reference to 'act of seeing/act > of consciousness'. My apologies if I have -- is it something taken > from the texts? ------------------------------ Howard: Well, if you understand me to mean phassa, then you understand me correctly. ----------------------------- > > Jon > > =========================== With metta, Howard > 26561 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 6:27pm Subject: Re: Meaning in life Hi Christine, No problem. The discourse strikes a chord and speaks to me in a way that puts life in perspective. Indeed long have we thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26562 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 7:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Victor, What is the self? Is it eternal? Is it the creation of a god? Did the Buddha know about it? If he did know about it, why didn't he mention it? Ken H > Now, let me ask this question: > > Who or what else can realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, > the deathless for you except you your self? > > Can the conditioned realize the cessation of dukkha, the unbinding, > the deathless? > > No, it can't. > > How can what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha realize the > cessation of dukkha if it itself is dukkha? > > Only you can realize the cessation of dukkha for your self, nothing > and no one else can. > > Let me ask this question: > > Is what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha fit to be seen > thus: "This is mine. This I am. This is my self."? > > No, what is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha is not fit to be > seen thus: "This is mine. This I am. This is my self." > > What is inconstant, subject to change, dukkha is to be seen as it > actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I > am not. This is not my self." > > Peace, > Victor 26563 From: Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 3:04pm Subject: Testing - Empty Message 26564 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 8:13pm Subject: Re: Meaning in life Hi James, I appreciate the book analogy. I also would not say that ending this dukkha/suffering is `the meaning' to everyone's lives. If finding meaning in life is understood as achieving degree of happiness, satisfaction, or realization in life, then meaning of life can mean differently to different people. Some might find the meaning in life in making money and accumulating wealth. Some might find the meaning in life in wielding political power over others. Some might find the meaning of life in creative activity. Some might find the meaning of life in accumulating and specializing in certain field of knowledge. Some might find meaning of life in communicating with higher divine being. Some might find meaning in life in providing service helping others.....the list goes on. However, any of the pursuits listed above does not lead to the deathless, the unbinding. If one does not have the goal of realizing the unbinding, either in this very life or in the future, one would just wander in the round of rebirth indefinitely. Not everyone is at the same point in their development to realize the cessation of dukkha. However, for everyone on the path to the realization of the deathless, the aspiration to the realize the unbinding is necessary. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 26565 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 8:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Ken, I would suggest abandoning the line of inquiry in your message. This line of inquiry is unskillful, connected with speculative reasoning, not connected with what the Buddha taught. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Victor, [snip] 26566 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Karuna (compassion) for comment Dear Rob M, Thank you very much, many good thoughts about compassion. One remark, see below. op 01-11-2003 15:23 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > We should develop the skill of > compassion before trying to realize the first noble truth; > otherwise, we may be overwhelmed. Compassion means having our hearts > engaged, not overwhelmed or broken. N: It all depends on conditions what will be developed at which moment, I do not think of a certain order. When understanding of nama and rupa is being developed, eventually dukkha and the other noble Truths will be realized. And also: it will be known more clearly when there is compassion and when aversion. When there is right understanding we will not be overwhelmed, or if we are, these moments will be known. At the moment of panna there is no aversion. Nina. 26567 From: nordwest Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 5:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meaning in life Then the way is the goal. Isn't it? :) Enlightenment comes in layers, little by little normally. This flash-enlightening of Zen stories is really a rare one. I think, we are all a little bit enlightened, but not complete perfectly. Gassho, Thomas buddhatrue wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Isn't the meaning of human life to attain enlightenment and escape the suffering to help others to attain the same thing? > > Gassho, > Thomas Hi Thomas, Hmmm....you make it sound kinda simple. Since you haven't attained enlightenment yet does that mean that your life has no meaning? You are looking at the final goal, I was addressing getting to that goal. Metta, James 26568 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 10:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kamma and vipaka Hi Christine, I’m sure others like us are glad to see you back on list;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > On the trip some of us found kamma and vipaka coming to attention > more than usual. In discussion with dhamma friends, > I was told vipaka is just a moment, not the whole story. ..... Right. Let’s face facts and accept that sometimes it’s quite a relief to understand (at least in theory) that some of our accumulated tendencies are anatta and not *ME* that is responsible..... I think one lesson we could learn is that you could do with a *treasurer* nearby who understands the real value of various coins and currencies, whilst I could do with a *bodyguard* who looks out for pitfalls as I cheerily expound on ‘awareness at anytime’. ..... C: > I have two stories, find the vipaka: > 1. "Don't trust your friends at dinner-time" > One evening, I tasted a dish that I thought included a square piece > of red dessert jelly. .... Loved this first story, but will pass to the second which relates to the ‘regal’ accumulations in need of a treasurer;-) ..... C: >Talking over our > purchases later, the ladies discovered I had spent $82.00 instead of > $22.00 (but what can you expect from a farang the expressions said. > Thank heavens I was one of *their* farangs!). ..... Now, Chris, when you’ve hinted to me on several occasions that your adult children don’t really trust you and your purse alone in Asia, I’ve tried to be sympathetic. When you told me about the poor taxi driver who moved you from one hotel to another and then had to face hotel security systems to find you to get paid, I put it down to delayed jet-lag. Skipping one or two other little stories (maybe we can hold the ‘bag’ responsible for the little panic in Mandalay) and just touching on the strange idea that Shakti and Sukin got when they felt they needed to watch you carefully as you bought a Buddha in Pagan.....I think I’m beginning to get the picture;-) Still, who or what are these accumulations to talk? There’s embarrassment just at the thought of them;-( Azita rang from the airport in Hong Kong on Saturday nite as we were listening to Santana live through our living-room window. She kindly asked how my leg was doing, having seen it sticking out at awkward angles all over Myanmar in recovery mode. What I couldn’t face telling her on the phone (or DSG last week for that matter), was that after checking the list, the first thing I did on return from Thailand was to wander out to the nearby shopping mall and relieved at no longer having to look out for broken Thai and Burmese pavements, I underestimated the lingering weakness in the left leg as I took a step down. CRACK, I fell and twisted my right ankle. Back to bandages and sticks, having to be ‘rescued’, having to face students with another leg suspended.... Still, I needn’t have worried about the latter - Starkid Philip and his friends were too busy showing off their bruises and cuts from Camp, determined they were far worse than mine. I was happy to be ‘out-done’;-) So now, I’m getting good value from Dr Ma as he treats my rt arm, left leg and rt ankle at the same time. No orchid jewellery or Buddha bargains, but the dollars I didn’t spend are rapidly being taken care of in these all-in-one fix-it sessions. ..... > I understand, after reading discussion considering, that 'feeling' is > a condition for 'craving', and craving is viewed as the root of the > Round, - what can be done about 'feeling' which just seems to flare > up? .... Feeling just feels - pleasant, unpleasant or neutral - for an instant and then gone. .... >It was also said that the point of learning about Dhamma is to > get in a positon not to create new kamma and vipaka, to lessen the > strength of the kilesas (defilements). .... I think the point is to undestand and accept with detachment, whatever is conditioned at this moment. We might like to get in this ‘position’ you mention or ‘to lessen the strength of the kilesas’, but this is wishing (lobha whispering) again, usually with an idea of ‘self’ that can do something;-( .... >How do you do that when there > is no 'we' to have a choice? .... ‘You’ and ‘We’ don’t;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Look forward to more of your colourful accounts, Chris - I can see the others had a lot of fun as you politely tasted your ‘jelly’;-) ====== 26569 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Worrying about others (and oneself) Hi Christine (& Htoo), I’ll try not to be too frivolous this time - --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > C: > There was discussion on the trip about children, parents, relatives, > partners etc. who are not interested in Buddadhamma in this rare and > precious human life, and much wondering about how to 'encourage' > them to take an interest. Often I feel that if only I could present > the Dhamma skillfully enough they would be convinced. <..> .... Doesn’t this bring us back to ‘whispering lobha’ again - wishing we might understand more, wishing our dear ones might take interest, wishing our elderly parents might at least have kusala cittas (wholesome consciousness) at the ends of their lives....? .... I liked the reminder Htoo gave about the various kinds of attachment or craving (tanha) as elaborated both in the suttas and Abhidhamma (not quite sure whether this is a translation of a sutta or an elaboration of part of the Dhammacakkapavattana sutta, Htoo??): Htoo: >'' O Monks! Tanha is the source of Dukkha. There are three kinds called Kama Tanha, Bhava Tanha and Vibhava Tanha. As there are six senses, there are 18 Tanha. Ijjatta ( inside ) and Bahiddha ( outside ) make 36 Tanha. There are three temporal existances of present past and future so there are 108 Tanha. I have realized all these Tanha. As I have realized I have eradicated Ditthi and Vicikiccha through Sotapatti Magga, eradicated Kama Raga through Anagami Magga and Rupa and Arupa Tanha through Arahatta Magga. I have eradicated the second Sacca Samudaya which is the cause of sufferings.''< ..... C: > In Yangon one night, the English group decided not to go out to > dinner and cultural presentation with the others, and to have a > Dhamma discussion with K. Sujin in her rooms. Just as we began, > there was a knock on the door, and a Myanmar family, having heard K. > Sujin was there, seized the opportunity to see and hear her. They > were made welcome and one man wanted to know what he could do for his > mother who was at that moment unconscious and dying in hospital - it > seemed he had had to choose between being at the bedside and coming > to see Tan Ajahn. I was thinking of things such as 'sound' being > the last faculty to fade, maybe loving words or recordings of dhamma > or chanting would help, maybe even gentle massage. Tan Ajahn simply > said that the best thing he could do was to be a good son. I was a > little puzzled by this, still am. .... You were kindly trying to help the man and I could see your surprise as K.Sujin ‘cut’ the story and gentle suggestions in the following discussion. What I understood her to mean is that we know our parents better than anyone else and so we know at the time what they’d like and how to make them comfortable. It depends on many factors what is appropriate and we can all do our best accordingly. I remember being in the hosptial with A.Sujin when her own father was dying and watched her stroking him, supervising nurses, camping in the room and occasionally discussing dhamma with other visitors. When Jon’s mother was dying recently, her main concern was to have her three sons present and her Christian pastor recite Christian prayers to her. Whilst we can share experiences and advice, the best help and friendship we can give each other is by giving reminders about the present realities. This is why, I think, K.Sujin made brief comments about ‘being a good son’, suggesting the son do as he needed to do and spent the rest of the precious opportunity in encouraging an understanding of present namas and rupas - understanding more about the four noble truths, about practice and development of understanding at the present moment and so on. Whilst it might seem ‘heartless’ or lacking in compassion to discuss realities at such a time, I think this is what the family wished to hear and why they had come to listen rather than spend all their time in the hospital. I’m not sure if this makes sense. ..... <...> > Is panna so powerful that it can wipe out or ameliorate kammic > debts? .... More whispering lobha? So often we are concerned about results of kamma and what will happen to *ME*, forgetting there is no me and attachment to results won’t help at all. ... >Something would have to be - if we had to experience the > result of every thought word and deed there could be no liberation. .... Just speculations, I think, instead of developing understanding at this moment;-) Look forward to any further comments or discussion topics with more whispering lobha again (even if you disagree with anything here). As you said to me, we don’t have to agree with A.Sujin or anyone else on any topic. We can read and consider the teachings and find out for ourselves what is right. Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo and Suan, we thought of you both and any other Burmese members whilst travelling in your home country. ===== 26570 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 2, 2003 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Karuna (compassion) for comment Dear RobM. Like the others, I think you gave many excellent reminders about karuna (compassion). However, I marked a longer list of comments for further consideration to add to Nina’s point. I hope it doesn't seem petty to add them: 1. Yes, we read in the Vism about the function of compassion as ‘not bearing others’ suffering’. I don’t know the Pali for ‘bearing’, but we need to consider the meaning as so easily we might read it to suggest a ‘can’t stand’ or other kind of aversion. 2. You mention karuna ‘strengthens us to be better able to face suffering’. Interesting. Do you have a reference. Expectations creep in again as I read this. 3. The role of the other brahma viharas - eg ‘sympathetic joy develops compassion into active sympathy’ and ‘relieves the tension of mind and keeps compassion away from melancholic brooding’ etc. These comments don’t seem right to me as they seem to be mixing different mental factors. 4.Wishing for the person’s suffering to be reduced - of course can be with compassion, but usually with attachment I find. So differentiating wholesome and unwholesome mental states by feelings is not very satisfactory. I agree that we can say that when there is unpleasant feeling it cannot be compassion. ‘His thoughts, words and deeds are full of pity’. Again only panna will know whether there is any compassion at such a time. Same with ‘trembling of the heart’. For me, at such times, it would not be an indication of compassion which is light and free of trembles, I think. 5. Delaying happiness. Difficult. I think it’s one thing to refer to Sumedha, a Bodhisatta, for whom there were conditions to develop the parami and become enlightened. Another thing to suggest that there can be any choice, control or delay of certain states for us at this moment. Again, we have to read all the texts in the light of anatta and no free-choice;-) 6. I see we’re back to ‘radiating’ karuna and karuna meditation. We had some ‘radiating’ and zapping discussions on the trip - I’d like Shakti to add more when she has a chance. So easily, I think, an idea of self, selection or wish to develp wholesome states such as compassion, creeps in. No detachment at these times. I hope I haven’t given too many comments. Metta, Sarah p.s I liked slides 41-43 ================ 26571 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 0:23am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi Victor (& Nori), After I included the extract from Htoo’s post, I remembered you gave a link to the following very helpful sutta about craving which also elaborates on the 108 kinds as enumerated in the various texts: --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > I see the desires that you mentioned as craving/tanha, particularly > in terms of "May I be like this", "May I be otherwise", "I will be > like this", "I will be otherwise", or other craving-verbalizations > as enumerated by the Buddha in > Anguttara Nikaya IV.199 > Tanha Sutta > Craving > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-199.html .... "Monks, I will teach you craving: the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds,.....” The PTS translation mentions the Pali words for ensnares and so on as describing a fisherman’s circular cast-net....... Yes, caught by tanha at every turn. The true cause of suffering including the ‘eighteen thoughts which are haunted by craving concerning the inner self” such as those you refer to. Thank you for this. I think, as Jon would say, we had some unfinished business from before our trip, but hopefully KenH or others took good care of it for me;-) If not, I’d be glad if you’d raise any points again. I was glad to read all your helpful posts and sutta quotes in our absence. Metta, Sarah ===== 26572 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bouncing Messages Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hey! Maybe Yahoo is telling me I should meditate more and post > less. ... Oh, no - I’m sure Yahoo likes your messages.....If you need any help, let Jon or I know - we can always f/w your messages for the time being if needed. In Myanmar we had to find a devious way to read posts given the ban on Yahoo there - we used Betty’s non-yahoo list which gets posts in digest form and printed out from there after wading through all her accumulated spam;-) Betty, remember to let us know if you need help in starting another account too. Howard, we were also having a discussion about thinking, thoughts and concepts before the trip. I think it was all clarified and as Robert K said, better not to confuse pa~n~natti (concepts) with mental factors such as vitakka, sometimes translated as thought. The latter,cetesikas (mental factors), are certainly included in sankhara khandha, but not the former. Pls let me know if there was anything else to clarify. I appreciated your posts and these were important points. Metta, Sarah p.s How’s your mother-in-law? As K.Sujin would say, you know what to do best. Meanwhile any understanding developed can help a lot. ============================================ 26573 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re: guarding the senses Hi James, I also appreciated your posts to Philip and the other children. I mentioned to a friend in Thailand that you were considering visiting Hong Kong and she wondered if you might consider visiting Bangkok when others are there as well. ..... --- buddhatrue wrote: > You have never heard or read the term "Extra Sensory Perception", > ESP? That is very surprising. Yes, it contains intuition, but can > involve many other `extra' perceptions as well; they are perceptions > in addition to sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. The Buddha > spoke of it in some suttas. ..... I'd be interested in looking at any sutta you have in mind on this subject. I know your original qu was rhetorical, so never mind if you'd prefer not. Metta, Sarah ====== 26574 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:13am Subject: What did Buddha accomplish? What did Buddha accomplish? What does an arahant accomplish? What is the goal of Buddhism? Thanks / Antony. 26575 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:19am Subject: Pigs eating dung Hello Sukin, Sarah, Jon, Azita, Shakti, Sandra, and All, Sukin :-) - I was thinking over when we went to the Kuthodaw Temple where the Tipitaka is carved on 729 marble slabs, each in its separate Jedi, arranged in rows according 'Baskets'. I remember sitting with you, Sarah, Azita, Shakti and Sandra - Jon had gone to the Thai discussions - we were tired (and one of us was a little grumpy), as we continued a discussion on inherently undesirable objects. I think it had something to do with pigs eating dung and finding nothing objectionable in it, whereas a human probably would. And that the desireableness or otherwise lay not in the object itself but in the perception of the eater. I think you (?) mentioned perversion of perception. [or am I right off the track?] Anyway, I remember you and I had widely differing views, and that you went to the Thai discussion and posited a question on this topic to K. Sujin. I think the gist of K. Sujins' reply was that we were both a little bit right, but the truth lay in the middle. Can you, or anyone, recall this topic in any more detail than I can? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 26576 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:30am Subject: delayed reply to TG Hi TG, I think I also owe you a reply, but am having trouble finding some pre-trip mail and also remembering what I replied to already;-) I know you raised a section from part of MN43, Mahaavedalla Sutta, Q& A, particularly the part about 'conjoined states'. I wrote about this before in a discussion with Frank: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m16856.html Briefly, as universal factors, feeling and perception always arise with a citta, but this doesn’t mean their characteristics can’t be known separately when they appear. When a citta arises, together with its accompanying mental factors, it experiences or cognizes a nama, a rupa or a concept. The cittas, the mental factors, the rupas are real and arise and fall away. The concepts (pa~n~natti) do not. I think Htoo set this out very clearly in an earlier post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m21450.html You raised other points and I’d be glad if you’d repost any that I haven’t addressed or which still suggest to you that concepts should be included in sankhara khandha. (As I just mentioned to Howard, ‘thoughts’ can often refer to the mental factors of vitakka and vicara rather than to concepts in translations. Also, the way Thanissaro uses ‘ideas’ can be very misleading too imho, not always referring to concepts by any means.) Metta, Sarah p.s As RobM would say, pls let me know anyone else if there are posts waiting for replies as I'm slowly catching up;-) ===== 26577 From: sue Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Sarah wrote "Sometimes we may have the idea that by thinking and thinking, some issues can be resolved, but this is never so. Painful memories and experiences can only be ‘resolved’ by developing awareness and understanding of the present reality whether it be thinking, unpleasant feeling, seeing or hearing. We can never know or understand all the complex conditions which led to certain ‘events’ or realities in the past (or the present for that matter). Better to just let them go (but of course, without any idea of ‘self’ that can ‘let go’), rather than cling to past memories, even the unpleasant ones. As we’ve discussed so many times, the past has gone, the future not yet come - only the present namas and rupas can be known. " Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary of the day he died. I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. Metta Sue 26578 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Dear Sue, This is the sort of event where you might feel like blaming yourself: could you have brought him up better etc. etc. But the Buddha said that all beings are owners of their kamma, heirs to their kamma. Parents are people who introduce chidren to the world but it is still up to the child to live their own life. All of us here must have committed suicide during many lives because of the length of samasara. Even some beings who were close to becoming arahant did so in the Buddha's time. I think it is fine to light candles in memory of your son. Memories are not meant to be suppressed but rather seen as they are. The memory of your son is only that, a concept. At the time of thinking of him there are many realities, such as feeling, or lobha, attachment. As Victor said over time you can notice how the feelings arising at the time of taking son as object change. In the first few months they were no doubt very painful, later they become merely unplessant and one day they will neutral. One might even have plesant feeling if at the same time there is insight into the difference between concept and reality. It will really be like that. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue wrote: > Sarah wrote > "Som > matter). Better to just let them go (but of course, without any idea of > `self' that can `let go'), rather than cling to past memories, even the > unpleasant ones. As we've discussed so many times, the past has gone, > the > future not yet come - only the present namas and rupas can be known. " > > Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary of the day he died. > > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. > > Metta > > 26579 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Dear Sue, I only have time to add a little now, I hope others will add more. --- sue wrote: > Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with one > particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. I do > think of him every day even though it is painful. In addition, I light > candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary of the day he died. .... Thank you for sharing this with us. I know it won’t have been easy. If it’s any comfort to know, there are other members here who have lost familiy members in the same way - one a sister and one a daughter as I recall. You are bound to think about him. My father died in unhappy circumstances and I’d wake up in tears night after night by conditions, having terrible nightmares. But they passed. Others have lost partners or spouses too. ..... > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a > form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from > attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. .... I don’t think you need to set yourself any ‘rule’. If you like to spend his anniversary in this way, I think you should. The aim is not ‘to try to free oneself from attachments’, but to understand attachment and other phenomena when they arise, no matter how we grieve or spend our time. I can understand it may be comforting for you to have a little ceremony in this way. I found it comforting to visit my father’s grave a couple of years or so ago and speak out some appreciation for his good qualities which I’d not been able to do when he passed away. As I mentioned to another friend, over aeons in samsara, this tragic event is just a taste of the deep grief we have experenced so many, many times. It doesn’t necessarily help at the time, but in the end, the only way to overcome such grief is by understanding all realities as conditioned and not-self. I’ll think of you on the 9th, Sue. Please don’t think that you should be free of attachments. We’re only beginners on the path....Thank you again for sharing. Please add more if it's helpful. Metta, Sarah ====== 26580 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Worrying about others (and oneself) Dear Sarah, Jon, Chris, Sukin, Azita, Betty and all the tour group members on the Myanmar Trip How are you? And welcome back. Sarah wrote: "Htoo and Suan, we thought of you both and any other Burmese members whilst travelling in your home country." Thank you for your kind thoughts while I envied you all. I have been outside Myanmar more than two decades. I still haven't planned for a visit to it. I could have one month visa, but, if I do visit at all, I would like to have a visa with a longer permit. I even made inquiry recently at the Myanmar Embassy about the possibility of applying for Myanmar citizenship without losing my Aussi citizenship. I was told that dual citizenship was unavailable for the time being. So I am looking forward to hearing more news trickling down from the visitors to Myanmar like you and others. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine (& Htoo), > > I'll try not to be too frivolous this time - Htoo and Suan, we thought of you both and any other Burmese members whilst travelling in your home country. ===== 26581 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi Sarah and Howard Could we just put a simple word for this - Right Effort with Right Mindfulness Kind rgds Ken O --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 10/29/03 5:29:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi again, James - > > > > > > I had defined guarding the senses as basically a combination > of > > >mindfulness with vigilance. To clarify, what I'm talking about > is a > > >mindful > > >vigilance to avoid being swept away by the current of > experience, much > > >as a sentinal > > >at the gates of a city is watchful for attacks to which the city > may be > > >vulnerable. I hope this captures the sense I'm trying to convey. > > ..... > > So doesn't guarding the senses refer to mindfulness of seeing and > visible > > object, hearing and sound and so on for the other sense doors so > that at > > those moments, these namas and rupas are not followed by clinging > to the > > details and ideas about these? > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. Simple mindfulness is most of it. But that doesn't > quite fully > describe the matter. There must be an ongoing, repeated intention > to be aware > and not allow being swept away. This is where the vigilance seems > to come in. > Intention, intention, and yet more intention is important in this. > The thing is: > At the moment a sight, sound, odor, taste, bodily sensation, or > mind-door > object enters awareness, it it *too late* to first exercise > mindfulness and > reactive "control" - it will be automatic (already determined) at > that point. There > must be prior heightened attention and intention (with high energy > - viriya), > a sharp readiness, and this must occur repeatedly, so that when it > is time > for appropriate response and avoiding of harmful response, the > necessary > conditions are already in place. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > As you suggest, at those moments of> > > mindfulness, there is vigilance already. No self to do anything! > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Never a self to do anything - not at the moment of arising > at a sense > door, nor in advance of that. No self doing anything at all, but > the doing > occurring none the less. > ----------------------------------------------------- > I like> > > the analogy of the sentinal at the city gates. > > > > Good to read your discussions with Ken H in our absence;-) > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > > =============================== > With metta, > Howard > 26582 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:40am Subject: Re: guarding the senses Dear Sue, Sarah, Robert K and all How are you? Sue, I agree with what Sarah and Robert wrote on the issue. I will add something for you to try out if it works to reduce the pain in memory of your son's death. The mind has two modes roughly. One is the processing mode while the other is the resting mode. Please pay your attention to the resting mode for our purpose under consideration. The resting mode of the mind occurs between its processing modes in waking periods. The resting mode also occurs in deep sleep, in coma, in rebirth and in dying. Put it another way, the deep sleep, the coma, the rebirth and the death are the resting modes of the mind. The implication of the above statement is that, from the perspective of the Buddha's teachings on the nature of mind, we die whenever the resting modes of the mind occur - while awake or while asleep. You may find it difficult to detect the resting modes of the mind while awake. So please direct your attention to your nightly deep sleep - the unavoidable fact of life. The deep sleep and the death are the same type of mind as far as the Buddha's teachings on the nature of mind are concerned. By contemplating our own regular temporary death while awake and while asleep, our attitude towards commonly-understood death will change. This change of attitude towards death will become handy in managing your grief in memory of the death of your son. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue wrote: > Sarah wrote > "Sometimes we may have the idea that by thinking and thinking, some > issues > can be resolved, but this is never so. Painful memories and experiences > > > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. > > Metta > > Sue > --------------------------------- > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger > > 26583 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 6:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipat... Hi Victor The sutta did not mention how does one attain internal tranquility. Could you kindly quote reference to this attain of internal tranquility? Is it meditation? If it is, could you substantiate this claim with other suttas. Kind rgds Ken O > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > Thank you for your reply. It seems to me that you got the idea > from > > the commentary, not from what the Buddha taught as recorded in > the > > Pali Canon. > > > > Let me refer to this discourse in which the Buddha clearly talked > > > about what one should do regarding attaining internal > tranquillity > > of awareness and insight into phenomena through heightened > > discernment. > > > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 > > Samadhi Sutta > > Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html > > > > No where in this discourse, or in any other discourse that I've > come > > across indicates that the Buddha taught insight and tranquillity > > discriminatively based on one's faculties such that he taught > > insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. > > > > Your comments are appreciated. > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > > wrote: > > [snip] 26584 From: Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bouncing Messages Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/3/03 4:04:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Hey! Maybe Yahoo is telling me I should meditate more and post > >less. > ... > Oh, no - I’m sure Yahoo likes your messages.....If you need any help, let > Jon or I know - we can always f/w your messages for the time being if > needed. In Myanmar we had to find a devious way to read posts given the > ban on Yahoo there - we used Betty’s non-yahoo list which gets posts in > digest form and printed out from there after wading through all her > accumulated spam;-) Betty, remember to let us know if you need help in > starting another account too. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Sarah. The problem has now been apparently corrected. ---------------------------------------------- > > Howard, we were also having a discussion about thinking, thoughts and > concepts before the trip. I think it was all clarified and as Robert K > said, better not to confuse pa~n~natti (concepts) with mental factors such > as vitakka, sometimes translated as thought. The latter,cetesikas (mental > factors), are certainly included in sankhara khandha, but not the former. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. I don't conflate the two. By 'concepts' and 'thoughts' and 'ideas' I do mean certain cetasikas, and by pa~n~natti, I mean their intended referents, never actually arising or ceasing, even in the case of something such as the pa~n~natti called 'hardness', an imagined, but not-actually-observed substitute for observed hardness. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Pls let me know if there was anything else to clarify. I appreciated your > posts and these were important points. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s How’s your mother-in-law? As K.Sujin would say, you know what to do > best. Meanwhile any understanding developed can help a lot. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It remains critical, with little hope. There is the slim posibility of a new medication, if received in time, doing something. We'll see. It's a tough time .. sleeping with the phone on, waiting for a not very good call. Constant reminders of the Buddha's teachings help. ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 26585 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Hi Sue Mine is slightly different - my sister commit siucide also and she is very close to me. It take a long time to grief over it. To me I was quite traumatised by this event. You have practise Buddhism to overcome grief and I encourage you to continue to exhort yourself doing it. To me there is no another better antidote of solving the suffering of the dissociation of a love one. I have to admit it is extremely hard to do. But don't give up, exhort yourself and one day you will overcome it. Have faith in the teachings and just be mindful of this painful feeling as it comes. Mindful of feelings as impermanent, as clinging object leading to more suffering. It has help me overcome a few grief I have experience in my life. Honestly, in some ways I have still griefing but now as I look back, it is manageable. No matter what, as I said again, exhort yourself, if fall down, come up again and again. I believe one day you will win. One day you will look back this incident as a passing moment of your life, more importantly as a source of strength in your understanding of the way. Kind rgds Ken O --- sue wrote: > Sarah wrote > "Sometimes we may have the idea that by thinking and thinking, some > > issues > can be resolved, but this is never so. Painful memories and > experiences > can only be ‘resolved’ by developing awareness and understanding of > the > present reality whether it be thinking, unpleasant feeling, seeing > or > hearing. We can never know or understand all the complex conditions > > which > led to certain ‘events’ or realities in the past (or the present > for > that > matter). Better to just let them go (but of course, without any > idea of > ‘self’ that can ‘let go’), rather than cling to past memories, even > the > unpleasant ones. As we’ve discussed so many times, the past has > gone, > the > future not yet come - only the present namas and rupas can be > known. " > > Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with > one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. > I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In > addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each > anniversary of the day he died. > > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this > is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free > oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this > case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. > > Metta > > Sue > > 26586 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 7:43am Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > On the trip some of us found kamma and vipaka coming to attention > more than usual. In discussion with dhamma friends, > I was told vipaka is just a moment, not the whole story. Maybe > vipaka is all the moments that make up the story, a million vipakas > quite unrelated, and it is *self* that does the weaving of it into a > narrative - my story, this is happening to me? > If a part of each moment is vipaka (result), that would mean that > everything that comes in through each of the sense doors is vipaka > (result). (The length of samsara backwards and forwards for this to > be so is a little overwhelming, don't you think?) ===== I agree with the sentiment that vipaka is "just a moment", not the "whole story". Vipaka is the maturing of some past seed (a seed planted by a past volitional action). However, if we consider that in each citta process there are seven javana cittas producing kamma (one will only mature in this existence, one will only mature in the subsequent existence, the remaining five can mature any time after the subsequent existence), it is clear that past seeds build up as we travel through samsara. After so many existences, there are an uncountable number of past seeds ready to mature at any instant. Which one matures at this particular instant? There are many other factors which act as conditions. The 24 conditions of the Patthana cover mind as a condition for mind, mind as a condition for mind/matter, mind as a condition for matter, matter as a condition for mind, concepts/mind/matter as a condition for mind and mind/matter as a condition for mind/matter. Please note that the 24 conditions do not cover matter as a condition for matter; these would include all the laws of physics/chemistry/biology, etc. The Buddha intentionally excluded these from his "radar screen" because his stated purpose was to talk of things conducive to the holy life and things leading to Nibbana. The Buddha also made it clear that the detailed workings of kamma were an "unknowable". So far, I have only talked about the "front end" of the citta process; that which happens to us. This is where vipaka plays a role. The determining citta in the sense door citta process or mind door adverting citta in the mind door citta process is the point at which the flow of the mind is controlled to a kusala / akusala direction. This citta is functional citta, not a vipaka citta. The determinination of the direction of flow of the mind is conditioned largely by accumulations (this is why I consider accumulations to be so important - they are what steers the mental process). Of course, once the determining citta / mind door adverting citta sets the direction, the javana cittas arise and create future kamma. In brief, vipaka is not all of the moments; vipaka is one of the many conditions which cause what happens to us to arise. Our reactions and our emotions are not vipaka, they are javana. ===== > > I have two stories, find the vipaka: > 1. "Don't trust your friends at dinner-time" > One evening, I tasted a dish that I thought included a square piece > of red dessert jelly. It tasted a little strong, a little savoury, a > little strange. I mentioned this to K. Betty who had been > interestedly watching. She said (with a smile) - 'it's coagulated > pigs' blood'. Azita was most helpful then, covering the choking > sounds, by having a nurses' discussion about the use of pigs' > arteries in heart surgery. (No Azita! not helpful!) > (experiencing the taste, wondering, enquiring, hearing the answer - -> > feeling aversion, feeling aversion, feeling aversion) ===== In a simplistic fashion (I am not going to even try to understand the detailed working of kamma), you chose to go on that trip (that was an action). The result of that action of deciding to go was that you were with the group at that dinner. There were a number of other actions that you took as well that also conditioned you being at that dinner. You being at that dinner was vipaka of those decisions. Your eye was drawn to the "square piece of red desert jelly"; this may have been natural decisive support condition (i.e. accumulation) at work. You were hungry; this is another condition at work that would not be included in the patthana. All of these conditions (vipaka - being at the dinner, natural decisive support - attracted to red desert jelly, hungry) caused you to put the stuff in your mouth. There was attachment to taste followed by a craving to classify the taste. These cravings were condition for you to ask what it was (speech intimation). When the reply came, you organized the sounds into words; you then passed a judgement on the concept (i.e. yuck!) and mental proliferation took over. You (or others) could easily pick apart my analysis and come up with another equally plausable explanation; the main message remains the same - lots of conditions interacting in a complex manner. The objective of this analysis is not to determine the specific set of conditions at work (this is virtually impossible), but to understand that everything is arising because of conditions, not because of a "self". I am going to skip the second scenario that could be analyzed in a similar fashion. ===== > I understand, after reading discussion considering, that 'feeling' is > a condition for 'craving', and craving is viewed as the root of the > Round, - what can be done about 'feeling' which just seems to flare > up? ===== "Feeling" arises at all moments; but we need to specific about what is meant by "feeling". This is the cetasika vedana; it can be one of five types: - Pleasant bodily feeling - Unpleasant bodily feeling - Pleasant mental feeling - Unpleasant mental feeling - Indifferent mental feeling One cannot eliminate "feeling". According to dependent origination, feeling causes craving (tanha) to arise. But tanha needs more than just feeling to arise, it also needs ignorance and accumulations. When you say "feeling which just seems to flare up", I think you are talking about emotions (javana), not "feeling" in an Abhidhamma sense. The best remedy to this is mindfulness; wise attention, seeing things as they truly are. When we view beings as simply heirs to their kamma, we can avoid approval / resentment and cultivate equanimity. ===== > It was also said that the point of learning about Dhamma is to > get in a positon not to create new kamma and vipaka, to lessen the > strength of the kilesas (defilements). How do you do that when there > is no 'we' to have a choice? ===== Excellent question. There is clearly a "choice" made at every instant; there are multiple possible paths for our mind to flow, but our mind flows along one specific path, so a "choice is made". There is no "self" to make a choice, but choice is made according to natural laws. Here is an analogy; imagine that a ball is placed on the top of a pile of gravel. We release the ball and because of the law of gravity, the ball makes its way down the pile of gravel. At each moment, there is a choice as to which way the ball will proceed. At a micro-level, we know that the path of the ball is determined by the laws of physics (there is no God guiding the ball's path). How do we influence the path of the ball to go in a selected direction? The best way would be to form a small gully in the gravel. This gully corresponds to our accumulations. The ball still moves according to the laws of nature, but our gully is increasing the chance that the ball will end up where we want it. If habits are nurtured, accumulations and affinities are formed and this is how we "steer our mental processes". It will happen automatically and naturally. Assuming that we spend time radiating metta (or doing some other forms of meditation), every morning, this will create gullies and will cause us to be happier / more likely to see things as they truly are. BTW, a recent experiment at UofWisconsin recently illustrated this phenomena; meditation training had a measurable long term and positive impact on the brain functions, even weeks after the meditation classes were stopped. Metta, Rob M :-) 26587 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karuna (compassion) for comment Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > We should develop the skill of > > compassion before trying to realize the first noble truth; > > otherwise, we may be overwhelmed. Compassion means having our hearts > > engaged, not overwhelmed or broken. > N: It all depends on conditions what will be developed at which moment, I do > not think of a certain order. When understanding of nama and rupa is being > developed, eventually dukkha and the other noble Truths will be realized. > And also: it will be known more clearly when there is compassion and when > aversion. When there is right understanding we will not be overwhelmed, or > if we are, these moments will be known. At the moment of panna there is no > aversion. This piece was an amalgamation of may different authors, so there were some "Nina comments" (you may have recognized some of them), there were some "Susan Salzberg comments", there were some "Mahasi Sayadaw comments" etc. There were also a few "Rob comments" as I tried to create some linkages. Not surprisingly, the sentence that you took exception to was a "Rob comment" :-) I see your point that we each have our own accumulations and there is no ONE correct order. I am going to weaken the sentence with, "Many people feel the need to ..." so that it does not sound so absolute. Metta, Rob M :-) 26588 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 8:30am Subject: Re: What did Buddha accomplish? Dear Anthony, Answer for question one : As Bodhisatta when He was Hermit Sumeda, He did have enough Parami to get through the Samsara. But as boundless Karuna arose, He decided to endeavour to fulfil 30 Paramattha Parami so that He finally became Sammasambuddha. In His last life He attained Arahatta Magga along with Sabbannuta Nana at His 35. He had been preaching Dhamma until He did Parinibbana. He helped out countless Sattas from their Samsara. Even though He did Parinibbana The Dhamma still exists as His disciples and Sangha maintain it to the purest form. As long as The Dhamma preached by The Buddha is there, His accomplishment will be still going on. Answer to the second question : An Arahat accomplishes eradicating all defilements at Arahatta Magga. So he no more has Akusala Cetasikas. All he is doing is based on Avyakata Hetuka Dhamma. This means that all his actions are Kamma- less. Answer to the third question : The goal of Buddhists is to get through Samsara. This means that to attain Arahatta Magga. This again means that to experience a state called Nibbana when they are still alive and to be in the state of Nibbana when their body cease to function any more. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > What did Buddha accomplish? > What does an arahant accomplish? > What is the goal of Buddhism? > > Thanks / Antony. > 26589 From: robmoult Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 8:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Karuna (compassion) for comment Hi Sarah, Welcome back! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > 1. Yes, we read in the Vism about the function of compassion as `not > bearing others' suffering'. I don't know the Pali for `bearing', but we > need to consider the meaning as so easily we might read it to suggest a > `can't stand' or other kind of aversion. ===== I thought about the phrase, "not bearing" and I felt it was the best alternative; suggests "trembling heart" and is not too suggestive of aversion. Do you have an alternative phrase? ===== > 2. You mention karuna `strengthens us to be better able to face > suffering'. Interesting. Do you have a reference. Expectations creep in > again as I read this. ===== I think that this was a Susan Salzberg quote. I think I will change it to "see suffering as it truly is". Of course, this type of mindfulness will help us cope when suffering arises in us or others. ===== > 3. The role of the other brahma viharas - eg `sympathetic joy develops > compassion into active sympathy' and `relieves the tension of mind and > keeps compassion away from melancholic brooding' etc. These comments don't > seem right to me as they seem to be mixing different mental factors. ===== This is taken from Ven. Nyanaponika Thera. Obviously, one cannot have the four brahamaviharas in the same citta. However, the point here is that balancing your practice so that there are accumulations for all four is a good idea. The same is true of the spiritual faculties; one must develop all five (faith, energy, concentration, mindfulness and wisdom) so that the accumulations become mutually- supporting. ===== > > 4.Wishing for the person's suffering to be reduced - of course can be with > compassion, but usually with attachment I find. ===== I see "wishing for a person's suffering to be reduced" as the definition of compassion. "It would be better for me if they got better..." is definitely lobha-mula, but if the thought is clearly with the other person as object, "I want their suffering to be reduced...", then it is compassion. ===== > So differentiating > wholesome and unwholesome mental states by feelings is not very > satisfactory. I agree that we can say that when there is unpleasant > feeling it cannot be compassion. `His thoughts, words and deeds are full > of pity'. Again only panna will know whether there is any compassion at > such a time. ===== I am suggesting using feelings to determine compassion or not so that one can avoid being fooled by the near enemy, aversion. From my experience, aversion tends to push compassion aside a lot more easily than lobha-mula cittas do. When I recognize lobha-mula cittas at times that I feel it is appropriate to have compassion, I feel like a hypocrite - "Here they are suffering, and all I can think about is myself!" On the other hand, when I should be feeling compassion, righteous indignation about "how unfair it is" often creeps in and stays around for a while (mentally proliferates). ===== > Same with `trembling of the heart'. For me, at such times, it > would not be an indication of compassion which is light and free of > trembles, I think. > > 5. Delaying happiness. Difficult. I think it's one thing to refer to > Sumedha, a Bodhisatta, for whom there were conditions to develop the > parami and become enlightened. Another thing to suggest that there can be > any choice, control or delay of certain states for us at this moment. > Again, we have to read all the texts in the light of anatta and no > free-choice;-) Mahasi Sayadaw uses "trebling of the heart" as part of the definition of compassion. Mahasi Sayadaw uses "delaying of hapiness" (kam sukham rundhatiti = karuna) as a definition of compassion. ===== > 6. I see we're back to `radiating' karuna and karuna meditation. We had > some `radiating' and zapping discussions on the trip - I'd like Shakti to > add more when she has a chance. So easily, I think, an idea of self, > selection or wish to develp wholesome states such as compassion, creeps > in. No detachment at these times. ===== My view on radiating is that the benefit goes to the being doing the radiating, not the being that is radiated to. The benefit is the developing an accumulation through nuturing a habit. Metta, Rob M :-) 26590 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 9:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Chrisitine, Isn't practising the way and reading suttas is "choice". So how could we say that there is no choice at all. However, in fact it is the kusala condition or our need to attain nibbana or the fear of suffering condition our urge to do this "choice" in the first place. Just like the choice to eat more good food, is conditioned by akusala conditions. All are just condition "conditioning" our next condition. Sounds mechanic and also sounds like we have no control - scary idea isn't it. It isn't. In fact this is very helpful bc kusala conditions will condition more kusala ones. Isn't it nice :) Kind rgds Ken O > > ===== > > > It was also said that the point of learning about Dhamma is to > > get in a positon not to create new kamma and vipaka, to lessen > the > > strength of the kilesas (defilements). How do you do that when > there > > is no 'we' to have a choice? > > ===== > > Excellent question. There is clearly a "choice" made at every > instant; there are multiple possible paths for our mind to flow, > but > our mind flows along one specific path, so a "choice is made". > There > is no "self" to make a choice, but choice is made according to > natural laws. Here is an analogy; imagine that a ball is placed on > the top of a pile of gravel. We release the ball and because of the > > law of gravity, the ball makes its way down the pile of gravel. At > each moment, there is a choice as to which way the ball will > proceed. At a micro-level, we know that the path of the ball is > determined by the laws of physics (there is no God guiding the > ball's path). > > How do we influence the path of the ball to go in a selected > direction? The best way would be to form a small gully in the > gravel. This gully corresponds to our accumulations. The ball still > > moves according to the laws of nature, but our gully is increasing > the chance that the ball will end up where we want it. > > If habits are nurtured, accumulations and affinities are formed and > > this is how we "steer our mental processes". It will happen > automatically and naturally. Assuming that we spend time radiating > metta (or doing some other forms of meditation), every morning, > this > will create gullies and will cause us to be happier / more likely > to > see things as they truly are. BTW, a recent experiment at > UofWisconsin recently illustrated this phenomena; meditation > training had a measurable long term and positive impact on the > brain > functions, even weeks after the meditation classes were stopped. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 26591 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism. XIV 32, 33 Hi Larry, op 02-11-2003 20:11 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Perhaps we could say consciousness gives the impression that a > person comes and goes with the same mind because of the unchanging > nature of consciousness itself, while what changes is the object of > consciousness and the mental body (feeling, perception, volitional > formations). N: Also citta changes each moment, seeing is not the same as the following citta, another vipakacitta, receiving-consciousness which receives the visible object. Nina. 26592 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 11:12am Subject: Re: re: guarding the senses Hi Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > I also appreciated your posts to Philip and the other children. I > mentioned to a friend in Thailand that you were considering visiting Hong > Kong and she wondered if you might consider visiting Bangkok when others > are there as well. James: Could be, actually I am seriously considering moving to Thailand to teach after a year here in Cairo. A year in Cairo is probably enough for anyone! ;-). Taiwan is a strong possibility also. Either way I could easily travel to Bangkok and Hong Kong. I am finding that traveling anywhere other than the Middle East from Cairo is problematic and expensive. Don't count on me coming to Hong Kong this year. From what I am reading, it sounds like your get- togethers in Bangkok are a real hoot! I may not agree with everything you discuss, but I like a good adventure! ;-) > ..... > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > You have never heard or read the term "Extra Sensory Perception", > > ESP? That is very surprising. Yes, it contains intuition, but can > > involve many other `extra' perceptions as well; they are perceptions > > in addition to sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. The Buddha > > spoke of it in some suttas. > ..... > I'd be interested in looking at any sutta you have in mind on this > subject. I know your original qu was rhetorical, so never mind if you'd > prefer not. James: It doesn't matter what I prefer, you can look at whatever sutta you want. You don't need to ask my permission ;-))). Seriously, I don't have just one sutta in mind, there are several suttas about this subject scattered throughout the Sutta Pitaka. I am surprised that you and Nina are not familiar with them. Granted, those who are more oriented toward discussions of nama/rupa AKA `Present Realities' are not going to be interested in such suttas. Frankly, they detail matters that turn the Abhidhamma on its ear. However, as a good starter for you, you can read this article about the monk Maha-Moggallana: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel263.html Maha-Moggallana, a contemporary of the Buddha, had more psychic powers than anyone else in the sangha. He had the powers of: telepathy, clair-audience, clairvoyance, second sight, visions, astral travel, and telekinesis. I am not going to discuss what psychic abilities I have because it isn't important (I have written to you about them off-list so you are aware anyway). The only reason I brought this subject up is because having psychic ability makes the whole process of `guarding the senses' that much more difficult. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Metta, James 26593 From: Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:07pm Subject: Re: A Drop More About Guarding the Senses (Re: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of ...) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/3/2003 8:48:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Sarah and Howard > > Could we just put a simple word for this - Right Effort > with Right > Mindfulness > > Kind rgds > Ken O ========================== Not bad, Ken. :-) If that's not all of it, it's certainly most of it! With metta, Howard 26594 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Centrality of Formal Sitting Meditation Even in the Satipatthana Sutta Hi Victor, ----------- V: > I would suggest abandoning the line of inquiry in your message. -------------- The line of inquiry "is there a self; is there not a self" is abandoned when it becomes redundant. When we accept there is only nama and rupa (the five khandhas and nibbana), we are no longer caught up in questions of self. However, you, Victor, have not accepted (not even at the intellectual level), that there is only nama and rupa. You have accepted that nama and rupa are not self but you believe self is something else. So, in your case, this line of inquiry remains entirely valid. ------------------ V: > This line of inquiry is unskillful, connected with speculative reasoning, not connected with what the Buddha taught. ------------------ The Buddha taught that, while we worldlings are caught up in ideas of self, it is inevitable we will ask, "Is there a self; is there not a self." It is a sign of wrong view but it is not wrong view itself. That is to say, the elimination of wrong view is not brought about by the ritualistic avoidance of a line of inquiry. The Suttanta, the Abhidhamma, the Vinaya and the Commentaries -- taken separately or together -- make it perfectly clear that there is no self: There is no reality apart from the conditioned five khandhas and the unconditioned nibbana; all of which are anatta (not- self). To find this truth less painful and, ultimately, marvellous, simply study the absolute realities that were taught by the Buddha. Kind regards, Ken H > Hi Ken, > > I would suggest abandoning the line of inquiry in your message. > This line of inquiry is unskillful, connected with speculative > reasoning, not connected with what the Buddha taught. > > Peace, > Victor > > 26595 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 1:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] guarding the senses Hello Sue, (and KenO), Thank you for telling us of the completed suicide of your son. It is a hard thing to mention, and shows your growing trust in us. To have a child no matter what the age, who has suicided, is a very lonely grief to bear. They are supposed to outlive us, aren't they? Sometimes to hear from others who have experienced similar, though never identical, losses is a great comfort. Thank you KenO for speaking of the almost unspeakable pain you both deal with on a daily basis. As you are talking of anniversaries, I see that you have been enduring for some time now. That is a testament to your courage, strength and fortitude. Do whatever it takes to get through - there is no politically correct Buddhist way to deal with it. It is not possible to stop remembering. Lighting candles is something the human spirit recognises and gains comfort from at a deep level. It is a respectful and loving thing to do. I'm sure you will be aware of the various organisations who can be of support through the years, and of the literature available for reading and reflection. I mention a couple, in case anyone is unfamiliar with them. support: http://www.compassionatefriends.org/ literature: http://www.centering.org/ When you are able, now and then, here and there, read and reflect a little on the Buddha's words on attachment, separation and death. Sometimes they will seem too harsh, reality is often that way. But over time they will come to be seen as kinder and truer than the way of the world. There are many suttas - here are a few where the Buddha explains that attachment to loved ones is a cause of sorrow http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-011.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud8-08.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn087.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud2-07.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/therigatha/thig06. html#1 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sue > > Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary of the day he died. > > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. > > Metta > > Sue 26596 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 2:28pm Subject: Re: guarding the senses Although the above words are very wise, I have a difficulty with one particular memory. My son committed suicide at the age of 28. I do think of him every day even though it is painful. In addition, I light candles and say prayers for him on each anniversary of the day he died. > > I will do the same this year on 9th November. I realise that this is a form of attachment on my part and one should try to free oneself from attachments, but this seems impossible for me in this case. > > Any comments anyone may have would be much appreciated. > > Metta > > Sue Hi Sue, I could imagine that this is very tough for you; thank you for sharing. A part of you would like to stop lighting the candles and saying the prayers because that means that you have accomplished detachment, and with detachment will come an ending to the pain you feel. But another part of you doesn't want to stop because you feel it is your duty as a mother to forever mourn the loss of your child. I would imagine that you have many conflicting emotions. I think that everyone has given you some good advice. I don't think that I can really add much. However, I might suggest that you watch the movie, "Monster's Ball". When I read your post that movie came to my mind. Though on the surface the movie is about interracial relationships, I think the real theme is about two people who have to move forward with their lives after they both lose a child (one to suicide). Warning: it is a gritty and realistic movie, but it might prove to be something of a catharsis for you. Metta, James 26597 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Jon and Howard, Howard, I think Jon and I are having a similar conversation about the nature of consciousness/experience. In other, non-Theravada traditions consciousness is likened to a crystal that takes on the characteristics of whatever it touches. A crystal on a piece of red cloth is colored red. In the same way, consciousness OF red is red consciousness and consciousness WITH anger is angry consciousness. This way of understanding consciousness makes sense to me and it seems to make sense out of the 121 kinds of consciousness, which otherwise are not different kinds of consciousness but different combinations of cetasikas and rupas. Using this model of the crystal I would call this consciousness subjectivity. The question remains, how to account for objectivity? Perhaps we could say the two cetasikas "view" (ditthi) and "mindfulness" each somehow engineer a point of view. We could call this experiential point of view objectivity. Obviously there are differences between the objectivity of view and the objectivity of mindfulness. Most notably, the "point of view" of view seems like self while the "point of view" of mindfulness doesn't. This way of understanding objectivity would also give a real, experiential manifestation to view instead of being merely opinion and belief (concept). I don't know if it is significant but this model would also mean that objectivity is a kind of subjectivity. Consciousness WITH mindfulness is mindful consciousness and the same for view. Comments? I'm particularly interested in how to account for the experience of objectivity, both wholesome and unwholesome, and whether you think this simile of the crystal will fly in Theravada. Larry 26598 From: norakat147 Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 3:04pm Subject: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration hi all, I know there is probably no chance of intelectualizing this in words but I'll throw it out there anyway. If there is no-self (soul), then what transmigrates? (I have a feeling I asked this before, if so, sorry.) one, nori 26599 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 3, 2003 4:06pm Subject: Re: The paradox of Annatta (not-self) and transmigration Hi Nori, Where did you get the idea that there is no soul? The Buddha did not teach whether there is soul or not. Thinking along the line of "there is soul" or "there is no soul" is speculative, not connected with the Dhamma. Similar question such as "if there is no self, who gets reborn?" also starts with the assumption not connected with the Buddha's teaching. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi all, > > I know there is probably no chance of intelectualizing this in words > but I'll throw it out there anyway. > > If there is no-self (soul), then what transmigrates? > > (I have a feeling I asked this before, if so, sorry.) > > > one, > nori