27000 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:17pm Subject: Re: citta, cetasika, rupa. Hi James Could you kindly explain how those beings in the immaterial state that experiences feelings, if feeling is a physical response in the body? rgds Ken O > > Hi Nina, > > First, you state all of this as if it is fact; it isn't fact, it is > theory. I don't agree with this theory. Here is a summary of my > thoughts on the subject: I do not believe that feeling is a single > mental factor that arises with thoughts. This is an out of date and > old fashioned idea. Feeling is a physical response in the body, > triggered by neurotransmitters in the brain, leading to physiological > reactions in the body, which stem from thoughts. There can be > subsequent thoughts about the feeling, but the feeling itself doesn't > originate in the brain…it comes from the reactions of the body. The > function of the brain is a tool to guarantee survival of the body. > Through evolution, the brain has evolved that certain thoughts must > trigger certain feelings that trigger certain actions. All of these > thoughts and feelings are focused on survival. Consciousness, > however, isn't focused on survival and isn't limited to the functions > of the brain. Consciousness is fully aware. It is because of this > that the watcher can become the watched and that Nibbana is possible. > > Metta, James 27001 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness In a message dated 11/15/2003 4:27:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi TG, > > In the suttas emptiness is always defined as a nama or rupa with > distinguishable characteristics (usually the characteristic of arising > and falling away) is empty of some other dhamma, usually, but not always > a concept such as permanence. If you say, in reality there are no > characteristics, then what is empty of self? The only answer is that you > are asserting that all experience is conceptual. This is an arguable > point but I don't think it is in the suttas. > > Larry > Hi Larry As so often stated in the Suttas... "All things are not self." Emptiness refers both to the conditioned and unconditioned. I did not say there were no characteristics. I said -- things do not have their own characteristics. The rest of your proposed hypothesis would therefore not follow. TG 27002 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Dear Suan and Michael, Suan:"I refuted Kalupahana thoroughly in the article pages which are available in the journal issue 2000 and 2001 on the bodhiology website. If Robert had downloaded them previously, please feel free to forward them here." Suan, I tried to find it on your site but couldn't see it. Anyway I am glad you are around to help discuss directly. Your wide knowledge of Dhamma and Pali will ensure accuracy in the discussion. Michael thank you very much for writing out the page from Kalapuhana's book. I see the main point was that Kalupahana says that Buddhaghosa misrepresented the Dhamma and made it 'essentialist'. And that other ancient Theravada Bhikkhus like Anuruddha, the author of the Abhidhammamattha-sangaha, were even more so. The long line of Bhikkhus who preserved these ancient commentaries for all these centuries were perhaps deluded people, not really understanding the Dhamma. These are strong accusations by Kalupahana. But anyway he feels that he has the wisdom that can distinguish this wrong teaching and he finds that the Theravada commentaries were not much different from the wrong teachings of the Sarvastivadins and Sautrantikas. I don't know much about these groups except that the Sautrantikas rejected the Abhidhamma. They said there was no Tipitaka but only a Dvipitaka - Sutta and Vinaya. Further than this Professor Kalupahana notes that the Mahayana teacher Nagajuna also criticized the position taken by the ancient monks of Thearavda - for the same or similar reasons that Kalupahana does. It is very hard to judge these matters without reading the complete book so I just take one point. Professor Kalupahana says that "With the pursuit of such an essentialist conceptual > enterprise, the explanation of events or entities in terms of their > dependence (paticcasamuppada) was relegated to the background."" It is difficult to understand how the professor reached such a conclusion. In the Visuddhimagga alone there is a chapter devoted to Paticcasamuppada XVII running in my edition to some 79 pages. This is separate from all the references to it in other sections of the Visuddhimagga.. He may also be unaware of the chapters by Buddhagshosa in other commentaries: there is a very detailed one in the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion – PTS) for instance. And the commentaries on individual suttas are filled with explanations about paticcasamuppada: for instance the long commentary on the Mahidinana sutta (section of the Sumangalavilasini). The sub- commentaries, such as the DighaNikaya tika give even more detail. Anuruddha too, despite what Kalupahana says about him, laid stress on conditionality: Note chapter VIII "Compendium of Conditionality" in the Abhidhammatthasangaha. RobertK 27003 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness TG: "As so often stated in the Suttas... "All things are not self." Emptiness refers both to the conditioned and unconditioned." Hi TG, Anatta is a synonym for "empty of permanence". It wouldn't make sense to say nibbana is empty of permanence. In the two places in MN that the Buddha says "all dhamma are not self" the reference is clearly to the khandhas. I don't know of any commentarial notes that say otherwise. I vaguely remember reading that nibbana is empty or void of something but I don't remember what. It wasn't self. I think we could safely say everything, including nibbana, is empty of all else. Larry 27004 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reply to James James --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Star Kid Philip! ... > Yes, compassion is seeing someone in a good way. Have you ever > played a video game? I bet you have. You know how most video > games > are about overcoming challenges, shooting at enemies, and trying > not to get destroyed as you gather points in order to win the game? > Well, most everyone looks at life this way also. They don't see > other people as people; they see them as challenges, as potential > enemies, who may do something to destroy them at any minute. Or > they > see them as fellow players, who are competing to win the game, and > are therefore another type of threat. But the truth of the matter > is > that no one is playing a game, the game is playing us. The game of > life is stopping us from seeing the truth. When you stop viewing > people as potential threats, you develop compassion for them. Even > if they don't like you, or say bad things about you, you don't > care- > you know that they are just stuck in the game. Philip, you worry > that if anyone doesn't approve of your or criticizes you, you feel > like you have lost points. You get upset because you don't want to > lose the game. But the TRUTH isn't a game. Remember that and you > will have compassion for everyone. Great metaphor for a kid like Phillip. I'm sure he'll appreciate this. (Of course he may not admit as much!) Jon 27005 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hi Michael, Suan & All, There is a lot of detail in the first extract you posted as Nina said and I think it is useful to discuss it. Let’s take time to consider the points as I have no doubt they are well-considered and sincerely intended and very interesting. I hope to add something on the point James stressed later. I hope others join in as well - there are so many topics to be checked and raised, more than Suan, RobertK and I can handle;-) For now, the point Suan raised was the first one that caught my attention too: .... Suan: > >Therefore, the very statement "there can be many paths (magga) > >leading to that one goal (ekayana)" was already wrong. > Michael:> So, you don't find in the Visuddhimagga "at least six different ways of > attaining the goal: > 1. Insight (panna) > 2. Contemplation and insight ljhana and panna) > 3. Action (kamma) > 4. Morality or virtue (sua) > 5. Mindfulness (sati) > 6. Right effort (samma vayama), etc.12" .... Throughout the commentaries it is stressed that there is only one path (ekayana) as Suan corrected. We discussed the term ‘ekayana’ in considerable detail when looking at the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta (compiled by Buddhaghosa) and sub-commentary. Please see notes in this post of mine: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12410.html An extract from the commentary: >"The only way" = The one way [Ekayanoti ekamaggo]. There are many words for "way". The word used for "way" here is "ayana" ("going" or road). Therefore, "This is the only way, O bhikkhus [ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo]" means here: "A single way ("going" or road), O bhikkhus, is this way; it is not of the nature of a double way [ekamaggo ayam bhikkhave maggo na dvedhapathabhuto]".< ***** Back to the Visuddhimagga itself and the number of ways of attaining the goal. What are listed in your quote from the book above are aspects of the Path or Way which are described accordingly in detail. In Ch XV1, 75f,we are given a detailed description of “The Truth of THE Way” [my caps]. It starts: “In the description of THE way leading to the cessation of suffering eight things are given.” This is followed by a detailed elaboration of the path factors starting with right view. “It has right seeing as its characteristic. Its function is to reveal elements. It is manifested as the abolition of ignorance.” There is nothing contradictory with the suttas as I read it. Even the term ‘characteristic’ (lakhana) can be found in the suttas. For example, in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga tansl,1,285: “How many characteristics (lakhana) does he see who sees the rise of the five aggregates?” etc. A little later in the Vism (84), we read: “As to knowledge’s function (see #14): the exposition should be understood according to knowledge of the truths. For knowledge of the truths is twofold, namely, knowlege as idea and knowledge as penetration.” Conveniently at this point the translator (~Nyaa.namoli) gives a reference to S.v.431f to compare. The word ‘function’(rasa) may not be used but its meaning is clear: “That noble truth of suffering, bhikkhus, has been understood and penetrated. That noble truth of the origin of suffering has been understood and penetrated..cessation of suffering.....way leading to the cessation of suffering has been understood and penetrated.” Back to the Vism text and a little later, the ONE path is stressed again (95): “Also THE path is of ONE kind [my caps]as what should be developed. It is of two kinds classed according to serenity and insight, or classed according to seeing and developing. It is three kinds classed according to the three aggregates; for the [path], being selective, is included by the three aggregates, which are comprehensive, as a city is by a kingdom.” This is followed by a passage in M i,301 which elaborates on why it is said the Noble Eightfold Path is included by the three aggregates of virtue, concentration and wisdom. (B.Bodhi gives a note on the meaning of khandha in this context, but I digress). In short, I see nothing in the Visuddhimagga that conflicts with what we have already read in the various suttas and Abhidhamma regarding the one Path. I’d be glad to look at any further references in this regard. Metta, Sarah ===== 27006 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Ken O I agree in general terms with everything you said in this post, especially as regards the Abhidhamma being a support for the practice. I had noticed a distinct change in your recent posts (BTW, good to have you back, after quite a long absence), and I'm not surprised to learn here of your appreciation for the Abhidhamma. It's good to know that you've been putting your absence to good use! I would just like to add 1 or 2 comments of my own. --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James ... k: I am one living example of the fruits of Abhidhamma study that provide insight into many of my studies of Buddhist even though I have to admit that I study less than others. In fact I not an avid Abhidhamm studist (in fact I am quite lazy, I rely mostly on pple here to tell me). Jon: Like you Ken, most of my Abhidhamma studies have been of a passive nature. I have always relied very much on (live) discussions and recordings of talks (and I'm very fortunate to be able to listen in Thai) for most of what I learn, and these are discussions and talks on the practice, not on Abhidhamma per se. Now there are the exchanges here as another leg to my intake. Actually, it's only because of this list that I started delving into books like the Visuddhi-Magga and Abhidhammattha-Sangaha to find textual support for what I had come to know by other means. I have never considered myself and Abhidhammist (and in fact, on the last trip to India some Thai friends were telling me that if I was serious I ought to be taking more interest in the Abhidhamma -- clearly I didn't know how to talk the Abhidhamma talk!) k: Another impression of Abdhammaist study, is that its interpretations are sometimes very different from the mindset that we derived from our understanding through the study of sutta. I think it is natural, bc we always have our so called comfort arena. Jon: Right on, Ken! I suspect that many instances of what people consider to be inconsistencies with the suttas are in fact simply things that are so counter-intuitive for that person that they just can't believe it could be what the Buddha meant. There's nothing like exposure to the Abhidhamma to challenge our cherished ideas and beliefs ;-)) Thanks for the post. I think you have a very balanced approach. I hope you continue to benefit from the exchanges here, as I do. Jon 27007 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/15/03 2:37:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi TG, > > It seems to me, if there is emptiness there has to be something that > is non-empty, a container. If all there is is a big zero the Buddha > wouldn't experience anything at all, not even emptiness. Sense > consciousness is empty of hatred and desire. That is a path _and_ a > fruition, IMO. > > Larry > ======================== Emptiness may be no-thing-ness, but it is not nothingness. Belief in su~n~nata/anatta is not a nihilism - it is the middle way. Emptiness amounts to conditionality. While conditions have characteristics, they do not have own being, arising as they do from the coming together of other similarly empty conditions. No condition is a self-existent thing, but is merely a fleeting state whose very tentative and fragile existence is completely dependent on other similarly hollow phenomena. Looking for an anchor, for a steady ground that is not pulled out from under ones feet, looking for something that is non-empty, is the essence of samsara. Letting go completely - of every possible anchor and all solid ground, and giving oneself over entirely to uncertainty, nonlastingness, insubstantiality, and emptiness, is the doorway to nibbana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27008 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/16/03 12:14:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Anatta is a synonym for "empty of permanence" ======================= If that were so, then there would be but two lakkhana, not three, for these would be dukkha and anatta = anicca. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27009 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati A quick supplement to this post of mine just sent. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Ken O > Jon: Like you Ken, most of my Abhidhamma studies have been of a > passive nature. I have always relied very much on (live) > discussions > and recordings of talks (and I'm very fortunate to be able to > listen > in Thai) for most of what I learn, and these are discussions and > talks on the practice, not on Abhidhamma per se. I would also like to add a special mention of Nina's writings too, which over the years have been a big factor in my becoming familiar with the Abhidhamma as an integral aspect of the practice. And I don't mind admitting it has taken a long time to sink in! (At the same time, I'm glad I didn't feel the need to push myself into it ;-).) Many thanks, Nina. Jon 27010 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness TG --- TGrand458@a... wrote: ... > Hi Jon and Howard > > 'Mutual Dependence' is the primary focus of the suttas IMO; > in-so-much as it > is used to bring about freedom from suffering. Sariputta said... > "He who sees > the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination, he who sees Dependent > Origination sees > the Dhamma." That statement clearly shows the primacy of mutual > dependence. I think we are in agreement, TG, because I think you are referring to 'conditionality' in general and not mutual dependency in particular. Mutual dependence, as I used the term in my post, is a particular instance of conditionality (for example, kamma conditions vipaka, but the 2 are not mutually dependent). Dependent Origination is all about conditionality, and understanding conditionality is important in coming to an understanding of the teaching on not-self. Thanks for the comment. Jon 27011 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:contact Hi Howard, op 07-11-2003 01:07 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ============================== > In my opinion, the nature of contact is one point at which the > Abhidhamma and the suttas differ. In Abhidhamma contact is a concomitant to > consciousness, something associated with and subordinate to consciousness. In > the > suttas, contact is an event which is the coming together or co-arising of a > consciousness, a sense door, and a sense object, making consciousness an > aspect of, > and hence subordinate to, contact. N: The Atthasalini (Part IV, Ch I, 108) explains: the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and vi~n~naa.na. (translation of Wheel 101) We then read: H: Also, I think it is wrong to say that seeing is a type of > consciousness. Seeing is exactly awareness of a visual object via the eye > door, which > makes it visual contact. The visual consciousness, per se, is only the > subjective > pole of seeing, something which never occurs except as an aspect of a visual > contact. Correspondingly for hearing, tasting, feeling,smelling, and > cognizing. N: Seeing is a citta, consciousness, it experiences visible object. It arises in a process. Shortly afterwards kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in the same process. Let us look at the suttas: often it is stated: after having seen visible object, attachment to the object arises. MI, no 18, The Honeyball: It is clearly said: seeing-consciousness, this is the aggregate of consciousness, vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. We read in this sutta how contact conditions feeling, and then there is perception, reasoning, obsessions. H: As I see it, the Abhidhammikas developed a clever conceptual scheme of > sequences of mindstates, each of which is an occurrence of consciousness > accompanied by a selection from everything else that can occur in some > combination, these cetasikas being subordinate functions or features. This is > a brilliant and fascinating framework, one which, as a mathematician, I greatly respect, > but it does not seem to perfectly accomodate all of reality easily. Moreover, > it appears to me to be a BIG stretch to see it as "uncreatively" reflecting > the content of the suttas. N: That is all right, Howard. The main thing is to check for ourselves the truth contained in the teachings. Nina. 27012 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa, just quotes, please. Hi Michael, I have trouble with some terms. What are essencialist ideas, and where and how do you see them? In this group??I also had trouble with hermeneutic?? Hermes was the god of science. I looked at the co to the Kathavatthu intro, all those heretical schools. I did not see the Sarvastivadins and Sautrantikas K. alluded to. Buddhaghosa quotes all the time from suttas, Patisambhidamagga, Qu. of Milinda. We find the same aspects of sila in the Patisambhidamagga. It is very impressive to me, but, it cannot be understood without at least a basic understanding of the practice of vipassana. Without this the texts are just words. Look at the text of restraint as to the six doors, where he quotes a sutta. Buddhaghosa stresses vipassana, realize the khandhas, elements, sensefields, time and again. He helps us to see that the whole of the teachings, Abhidhamma included is for practice. As Ken O rightly stressed:< I like to clarify that Abhidamma is not just a scholaristic view of the dhammas which I have in the first instance when I first met it last two years ago. Abhidhamma has it strength in looking at dhamma with the anatta and anicca perspective which cannot be seen or match in any else in any Buddhist book that I have read. Its practicality is only known when we start using it. It is useless without practise bc it was meant for practise. Let me emphasis it again and again, Abhidamma is meant to help us to practise and not otherwise.> Vinaya, Sutta, Abhidhamma, we cannot understand them without a beginning understanding of the practice, otherwise, whatever we read of Buddhaghosa will remain theory for us. The article is very long, and maybe you can cut it and just select a very concrete point which we can examine. K. speaks very generally I think. What if we select sila. Is there any text K quotes where we could find any contradictions with the Tipitaka? It is best to use just quotes. I would like very much to listen to Suan and hear his opinion. His posts are always very valuable. Nina. op 15-11-2003 16:40 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Then just let it be, but franklly the key issue in Kalupahana's argument is > the inclusion in Buddhaghosa's writings of essencialist concepts which > cannot be found in the suttas. If you pay carefull attention you will notice > those essencialist ideas creeping up in this very same list. 27013 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Dear Sukin, I greatly appreciate your post. Excellent reminders, and so sincere. How true: < Are we expecting to have more sati and panna than our accumulations allow?.> We should scrutinize ourselves as to this. Nina. op 15-11-2003 12:34 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > There would be moments of discouragement, and then I would > be reminded of the fact that it is all `conditioned', that this is > just how it is supposed to be. Are we expecting to have more sati > and panna than our accumulations allow? Yes, like children learning > to walk we are! We are so fortunate to be amongst those who have > gone further than us. :-) > Estimating `how far we have come', even such thinking is > conditioned, but is it particularly useful? With sati, such thoughts > can condition calm if at the same time it conditions Saddha. > However, it is mostly done with `attachment' to self and progress. > In any case if we are honest, I think we will see that akusala > conditions far out weighs the kusala. > But there is never any reason not to prefer having patience, courage > and good cheer. ;-)). 27014 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:06am Subject: Re: citta, cetasika, rupa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi James > > Could you kindly explain how those beings in the immaterial state > that experiences feelings, if feeling is a physical response in the > body? > > rgds > Ken O Hi Ken, Well, I really don't know much about immaterial beings. I only know some things about the physiology of material beings. If I ever met an immaterial physiologist I'll be sure to ask him!;-) Seriously, matter is energy that vibrates at a certain frequency. Immaterial Beings, I conjecture, would be composed of energy that vibrates at a different frequency...they wouldn't be composed of nothing or they wouldn't exist. Perhaps they have an energy body, perhaps they are all mind, I don't know…the suttas give scant details about such matters. I was speaking predominately about the Abhidhamma, feelings, and how they relate to humans, I wasn't positing a `Theory of Everything'. Metta, James 27015 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: ... As I see it, the *particular rupa that arises* in a given mind stream, with its desirableness or undesirableness (which I take to be its pleasant or unpleasant "taste"), is conditioned by the accumulations of that mind stream along with other conditions. Jon: Which accumulations do you refer to here, apart from the akusala ones of attachment and aversion? I am wondering what you see as the role, if any, of kamma in conditioning the experience of objects through the sense doors. Does kusala kamma result in the experience of a 'liked' object (i.e., one to which one has attachment), and akusala kamma result in a 'disliked' object (one to which one has aversion)? If so, what is the position in the case of the arahant who has eradicated both of these tendencies? Howard: I think what I just wrote prior to this explains my understanding. The only rupas that are relevant here are those that actually arise in the namarupic stream involved, and, as I understand it, a rupa that arises in a given mind stream already carries with it the vedanic flavor that makes it desired or the disliked by the given "being". If at one time a given rupa is unpleasant and at another time "the same" rupa is felt as pleasant, these are, in fact, *not* the same rupas, because they differ not only in time and context of occurrence, but also in that one is undesirable and the other is desirable. Jon: You say that a rupa that is experienced carries its own 'vedanic' flavour. As far as I am aware, 'vedana' as used in the suttas refers only to the mental factor of that name that accompanies consciousness, never as an attribute of rupas. Furthermore, as I see it, there could be no necessary connection between the nature of the rupa being experienced and the feeling that accompanies the immediately following moments of consciousness. For the unenlightened person, the experiencing of a highly unpleasant object (for example, severe bodily pain) is inevitably going to be followed by consciousness that is rooted in aversion and thus is accompanied by unpleasant feeling, while for the arahant there is no dosa and no unpleasant feeling. So what happens to the 'vedanic' flavour in that case? As I understand it, what is being described by the Pali term 'ittha-arammana' and its opposite are attributes that pertain to the object being experienced, and not anything to do with the experiencing consciousness. Howard: Of course, if 'desirable' and 'undesirable' mean something other than inducing desire or aversion, then this all goes out the window. But, in that case, it is obligatory on the user of these terms to spell out exactly what s/he means by 'desirable' and 'undesirable' - desirable for what? in what sense? by what criteria? ... I only say that no objective criterion has been given. I offer "tending to induce desire" or "bearing pleasant taste" as criterion. Jon: Personally I would consider your "bearing pleasant taste" a better choice than 'desirable', but for whatever reason the Pali term used is apparently 'desirable'. But even 'pleasant' would leave open the question of what is meant by 'pleasant', so one comes back to the explanation given rather than relying on the term used. The answer to that is, as we have already heard in this thread, pleasant by the reckoning of the average person, i.e., not a person who is excessively sensitive or insensitive as regards such matters. Jon 27016 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > When consciousness is the object of consciousness is the object > consciousness with or without accompanying cetasikas? It apparently > is without an object. There can only be 1 present object of consciousness. Furthermore, to my understanding of the texts, no moment of consciousness can have as object anything other than a single dhamma or concept. Thus, whether the object of consciousness is the (immediately preceding) consciousness (citta), or one of the accompanying mental factors (cetasikas), or a sense-door object (visible-object, audible-object, hardness etc), or a concept, only that single dhamma or concept could be the object, and never for example, consciousness-with-object. > ... Also, I know in the Satipatthana Sutta consciousness > of consciousness is _with cetasikas_ but could there be mindfulness > of > consciousness in consciousness the same way there is mindfulness of > feeling in feeling? Feeling is, in some way, an "exclusive" object > of > mindfulness even though it always arises with other cetasikas. Why > not the same for consciousness? Yes, there can be there be mindfulness of consciousness in consciousness, in the same way there as there can be mindfulness of feeling in feeling. Feeling is not unique or even special in this regard. Every dhamma has characteristics that can be the object of awareness. Consciousness has, for example, the general characteristic of being a nama, and the unique characteristic of being chief in experiencing the object, and either of these characteristics could be the object of awareness. Jon 27017 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: citta, cetasika, rupa. Hi James, Science is always an interesting subject, it is sad that I do not have an aptitude for it. We have to understand that Science is always an ever changing subject, what they think is right today could be different from tomorrow. Are we so sure they have disprove the nama-rupa theory. When Budhha talks about dependent origination, he said ""'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?" " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn15.html So do we have consciousness first or rupa first for our first appearance in the womb? kind regards Ken O 27018 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:55am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 24 [Regarding the discriminations of attha ("meaning") and dhamma ("law")...] 24. This same meaning is shown in the Abhidhamma by the following analysis: (a) 'Knowledge about suffering is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the origin of suffering is the "discrimination of law". [Knowledge about the cessation of suffering is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of suffering is the "discrimination of law]... (b) 'Knowledge about cause is the "discrimination of law". Knowledge about the fruit of a cause is the "discrimination of meaning"... (c) 'Knowledge about whatever things are born, become, brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the things from which those things were born, became, were brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of law"... (d) 'Knowledge about ageing and death is the "discrimination meaning". Knowledge about the origin of ageing and death is the "discrimination of law". [Knowledge about the cessation of ageing and death is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of ageing and death is the "discrimination of law". Knowledge about birth ... becoming ... clinging ... craving ... feeling ... contact ... the sixfold base ... mentality-materiality ... consciousness ... knowledge about formations is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the origin of formations is the "discrimination of law".] Knowledge about the cessation of formations is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of formations is the "discrimination of law" ... (e) 'Here a bhikkhu knows the Dhamma (Law)--the Discourses, Songs, [Expositions, Stanzas, Exclamations, Sayings, Birth Stories, Marvels, and] Answers to Questions--this is called the "discrimination of law". He knows the meaning of whatever is said thus : "This is the meaning of this that was said; this is the meaning of this that was said"--this is called the "discrimination of meaning" ... (f) 'What states are profitable? On an occasion when profitable consciousness of the sense sphere has arisen [that is accompanied by joy and associated with knowledge, having a visible datum as its object ... or a mental datum as its object, or contingent upon whatever it may be, on that occasion there is contact ... (for elision see Dhs. 1) ... there is non-wavering]--these things are profitable. Knowledge about these things is the "discrimination of law". Knowledge about their result is the "discrimination of meaning:' ... (Vbh. 293-95). (8) ------------------- (8) This quotation has been filled out from the Vibha.nga text for clarity. 24. ayameva hi attho abhidhamme -- "dukkhe ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. dukkhasamudaye ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. hetumhi ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. hetuphale~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. ye dhammaa jaataa bhuutaa sa~njaataa nibbattaa abhinibbattaa paatubhuutaa. imesu dhammesu ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. yamhaa dhammaa te dhammaa jaataa bhuutaa sa~njaataa nibbattaa abhinibbattaa paatubhuutaa, tesu dhammesu ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. jaraamara.ne~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. jaraamara.nasamudaye ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa...pe0... sa"nkhaaranirodhe ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. sa"nkhaaranirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. idha bhikkhu dhamma.m jaanaati sutta.m geyya.m...pe0... vedalla.m. aya.m vuccati dhammapa.tisambhidaa. so tassa tasseva bhaasitassa attha.m jaanaati `aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho, aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho'ti. aya.m vuccati atthapa.tisambhidaa. katame dhammaa kusalaa. yasmi.m samaye kaamaavacara.m kusala.m citta.m uppanna.m hoti...pe0... ime dhammaa kusalaa. imesu dhammesu~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. tesa.m vipaake ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa" tiaadinaa (vibha0 719 aadayo) nayena vibhajitvaa dassito. 27019 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael RobertK, >Professor Kalupahana says that "With the pursuit of such an essentialist >conceptual enterprise, the explanation of events or entities in terms of >their dependence (paticcasamuppada) >was relegated to the background." It >is difficult to understand how the professor reached such a conclusion. It is not difficult at all to understand this conclusion because assuming that phenomena have any sort of essence, or that there are phenomena that can be regarded as having an ultimate substantial nature (svabhava), then there is no way to justify dependent origination. Dependent origination only works if there is no ultimate substantial nature in phenomena, if phenomena are entirely subject to causes and conditions. And that in brief is what has been proven by Nagarjuna. So, if you accept any kind of svabhava, you cannot justify dependent origination, they are contradictory. And just to ilustrate that even contemporary Theravada scholars struggle with this issue, have a look at the very different views below: “The Abhidhamma may be described as a philosophy because it proposes an ontology, a perspective on the nature of the real. This perspective has been designated the "dhamma theory" (dhammavada). The theory as such is not articulated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, which rarely makes explicit the premises that underlie its systematizing projects, but it comes into prominence only in the later commentarial literature, particularly in the commentaries to the Abhidhamma manuals. It is the dhammas alone that possess ultimate reality: determinate existence "from their own side" (sarupato) independent of the mind's conceptual processing of the data.” A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma – page 3 Bhikkhu Bodhi “Now, in what sense can the Abhidhamma be called a philosophy? Let us make a rough division of philosophy into phenomenology and ontology, and briefly characterize them as follows: Phenomenology deals, as the name implies, with "phenomena," that is, with the world of internal and external experience. Ontology, or metaphysics, inquires into the existence and nature of an essence, or ultimate principle, underlying the phenomenal world. In other words, phenomenology investigates the questions: What happens in the world of our experience? How does it happen? Of course, when inquiring into the "what" and "how," philosophy is not satisfied with the surface view of reality as it presents itself to the naive and uncritical mind. Ontology, on the other hand, insists, at least in most of its systems, that the question "how" cannot be answered without reference to an eternal essence behind reality, whether conceived as immanent or transcendent. Particularly in the latter case the question "how" is frequently changed into a "why," containing the tacit assumption that the answer has to be sought somewhere or somehow outside of the given reality. The Abhidhamma doubtlessly belongs to the first of these two divisions of philosophy, that is, to phenomenology.” Abhidhamma Studies – page 20 Nyanaponika Thera Those are extracts from a larger text, and it is easy to see that Kalupahana’s argument sides much easier with the position taken by Nyanaponika while the cristicism of Buddhaghosa would also apply to the arguments presented by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Metta Michael 27020 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Dear Michael, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, James and all How are you? My answers follow Michael's statements. Mike B: I am doing well, thank you. Hope you are also doing well and not too much upset by my message. Suan: I am well, and unable to find reason to be upset by your message. Mike B: Read the whole post to get to the kernel of his argument. Don't get lost in one word which I am not sure either if you are right or not. Suan: Thank you for this advice. But, if you are not sure whether I am right or wrong, I do not see the point in explaining things to you. Do you follow what I just said? I do not want to waste my time as well as your time. In fact, I never intended to take part in this thread. Only because Robert K drew my attention to the thread by including my name in the heading. The reason for planning to ignore the thread was that this type of thread usually involved speculative arguments. Right now, Kalupahana's chapter on Buddhaghosa was long on his personal speculative conclusions and short on quotes from Pali texts. Mike B: Yes I am sure. And you should be more carefull with your language. Bad karma you know :) Suan: So you were upset by my question! Sorry about that, but it was merely a literary device to stress the mistake of Kalupahana. Even though it was merely one word (ekaayano), as far as Buddhism is concerned, the term "ekaayano maggo" represents one of the Four Noble Truths. It means "One And The Only Way", and as such, is not negotiable. If Kalupahana as a Professor of Buddhist Philosophy could not get the important terms of the Buddha's teachings right, how could we make sense of his arguments and conclusions? Mike B : >If so, he did not understand even a very simple Pali like "ekaayaano".< (from Suan's previous post) I don't know about this. But maybe you don't know it either (don't take offense but I don't know you). Anyway this is not a key issue. But if you are just trying to find a reason to reject what he is saying, then go ahead and be happy. Suan: You discovered this list (dhammastudygroup) through the Pali discussions beteen me and Nina, forwarded to Pali List by Nina. So you might know, at least, that I am a Pali scholar. As a Pali scholar, I surely know the Pali language and can consult the Buddha's teachings, standard commentaries, subcommentaries and any related texts written in Pali. I mention these things, only because you said that you did not know me. For further information, though, the bodhiology website can be the starting place. In fact, if you recalled, I requested you and other like-minded critics of Buddhaghosa to provide me with Pali quotes from commentaries that contradict the Buddha's teachings. Nobody was able to do so so far. When you posted Kalupana's chapter on Buddhaghosa, the first things I looked for were specific Pali passages Kalupahana might use in his arguments. But, Kalupahana was not able to produce one single reliable Pali quote from Buddhaghosa's commentaries that contradict the Buddha's teachings. If you or someone think that I overlooked something, please let me know and draw my attention to them, please. I wasn't finding a reason to reject what Kalupahana is saying. I simply called a spade a spade. Kalupahana got it wrong when he interpreted "ekaayano" as "one goal". --- Sarah, thank you for taking care of this aspect of Kalupahana's mistakes. --- The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" can be found in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (The Establishment Of Recollection/Mindfulness). The term "ayano" has different meanings, but in the phrase "eka + ayano" it means "road or way". If you have a Pali-English dictionary, please look up the term there. The term "eka" normally means "one", but it can also take on the meaning of "one and only one" when used as in "ekaayano maggo". Thus, we get "The Only Way" when we mention "Maggo" as the Buddhist path. The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (Discourse On The Establishment Of Recollection) is used to signify (as adjectives) the four establishings of recollection (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Here, the Buddha was describing the establishment of recollection as the Only Way (for overcoming worry and grief, , and for realizing nibbaana). This type of singling out one component, namely right recollection, of the Noble Eightfold Path and equating it with the path (equating a part with the whole) is called "Teaching By Making Recollection As Head" (Satisiisena). To Be Continued.... With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 27021 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:50am Subject: Tiika 36 II, correction Tiika 36 II, correction. I forgot to copy the first line, thank you, Jonothan. Va.n.navikaara.m aapajjamaana.m hadaya"ngatabhaava.m ruupayatiiti ruupa.m, iva dassetiiti attho. It makes visible a change of appearance that manifests the state of mind, and thus it is visible object, * as it is shown, is the meaning. _____ * A word association of ruupa, visible object and ruupayati: to make visible. When someone has a change in the colour of his face, it shows what is in his mind. 27022 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi Larry, you ask many questions, but I can quote only one sutta now; D, no II, 83: The four great elements can never be separated. The body is built up by them. Nina. op 15-11-2003 20:10 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > One slight hiccup, however, is that sutta also doesn't say anything > about the inseparability of the 4 primary elements. In fact we are > advised to identify each primary individually as in the Satipatthana > Sutta. 27023 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma and science, Rob K Hi James, op 15-11-2003 20:02 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > First, you state all of this as if it is fact; it isn't fact, it is > theory. I don't agree with this theory. Here is a summary of my > thoughts on the subject: I do not believe that feeling is a single > mental factor that arises with thoughts. This is an out of date and > old fashioned idea. Feeling is a physical response in the body, > triggered by neurotransmitters in the brain, leading to physiological > reactions in the body, which stem from thoughts. .... All of these > thoughts and feelings are focused on survival. N: It is all right James. It does not help you if I say, do not compare Abhidhamma with science. Or if I say the Abhidhamma helps us to know presently arisen realities, it is for practice. Or, by knowing conditions you will cling less to my body, my mind. It does not help, because you are used to thinking the way you do. You are not the only person, many others think the way you describe above. Rob K is a scientist and he fully appreciates Abhidhamma. He wrote a few years ago about a dialogue he had with scientists about this subject. Rob, please could you reproduce some of it for James and others? J:Consciousness, > however, isn't focused on survival and isn't limited to the functions > of the brain. Consciousness is fully aware. It is because of this > that the watcher can become the watched and that Nibbana is possible. N: You see consciousness differently from what most scientists think. Here you will not put the brain central as some people do. The question is only: aware of what and how? But I cannot add anything new that would interest you. Nina. 27024 From: Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:contact Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/16/03 3:38:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > >In my opinion, the nature of contact is one point at which the > >Abhidhamma and the suttas differ. In Abhidhamma contact is a concomitant to > >consciousness, something associated with and subordinate to consciousness. > In > >the > >suttas, contact is an event which is the coming together or co-arising of a > >consciousness, a sense door, and a sense object, making consciousness an > >aspect of, > >and hence subordinate to, contact. > N: The Atthasalini (Part IV, Ch I, 108) explains: physical base, object and consciousness) as its manifestation. Thus, when an > object is experienced through the eyes, we know that there is eye-contact, > it is the manifestation of it. Seeing is conditioned by visible object, > since that is its object, and by eyesense, since that is its physical base, > but all the same seeing is the chief in knowing an object, it is not > subordinate. > ======================== That approach, of taking phassa as being something of which the "coinciding (of the physical base, object and consciousness)" is manifestation is an instance of reification to me. I do not believe in some hidden something called "phassa" which plays such a role. I understand phassa as an event, and that is the event describable as the coming together of consciousness, object, and door. That is what I understand to be the position expressed in the suttas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27025 From: Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/16/03 6:31:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > > Howard: > ... As I see it, the *particular rupa that arises* in a given > mind stream, with its desirableness or undesirableness (which I take > to be its pleasant or unpleasant "taste"), is conditioned by the > accumulations of that mind stream along with other conditions. > > Jon: > Which accumulations do you refer to here, apart from the akusala ones > of attachment and aversion? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps 'accumulations' is the wrong word. What I meant is that whether a pleasant or unpleasant rupa arises is at least partly a kammic consequence. -------------------------------------------------- > > I am wondering what you see as the role, if any, of kamma in > conditioning the experience of objects through the sense doors. Does > kusala kamma result in the experience of a 'liked' object (i.e., one > to which one has attachment), and akusala kamma result in a > 'disliked' object (one to which one has aversion)? If so, what is > the position in the case of the arahant who has eradicated both of > these tendencies? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, old kamma still has its effect, and the pleasantness/unpleasantness of what arises still is conditioned by prior kamma. --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > I think what I just wrote prior to this explains my > understanding. The only rupas that are relevant here are those that > actually arise in the namarupic stream involved, and, as I understand > it, a rupa that arises in a given mind stream already carries with > it the vedanic flavor that makes it desired or the disliked by the > given "being". If at one time a given rupa is unpleasant and at > another time "the same" rupa is felt as pleasant, these are, in fact, > *not* the same rupas, because they differ not only in time and > context of occurrence, but also in that one is undesirable and the > other is desirable. > > Jon: > You say that a rupa that is experienced carries its own 'vedanic' > flavour. As far as I am aware, 'vedana' as used in the suttas refers > only to the mental factor of that name that accompanies > consciousness, never as an attribute of rupas. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, vedana is a mental feature/function. The question is of its dependency. I am merely saying that the rupa itself is a condition for the particular vedana that arises. [Analogy: A surface that reflects only red light is seen as red. The seeing of redness is not something in the surface, nor is the seen redness, itself, something in the surface. But a "black" surface will not be seen as red - so the seen redness is dependent on the surface, and we might say, in that sense, that it is inherent in the surface. Likewise, the pleasantness of a rupa depndes in part on the rupa, and, in that sense, may be described as inherent in it. Of course, all talk of inherency is and should be suspect! It is a dangerous manner of speech.] --------------------------------------------------------- > > Furthermore, as I see it, there could be no necessary connection > between the nature of the rupa being experienced and the feeling that > accompanies the immediately following moments of consciousness. For > the unenlightened person, the experiencing of a highly unpleasant > object (for example, severe bodily pain) is inevitably going to be > followed by consciousness that is rooted in aversion and thus is > accompanied by unpleasant feeling, while for the arahant there is no > dosa and no unpleasant feeling. So what happens to the 'vedanic' > flavour in that case? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: In the enlightened person, severe bodily pain, for example, unless blotted out by some means for some purpose, *is* felt as unpleasant, but no dislike/repugnance arises in reaction, no craving or aversion arises. It is "just" unpleasant. ---------------------------------------------------- > > As I understand it, what is being described by the Pali term > 'ittha-arammana' and its opposite are attributes that pertain to the > object being experienced, and not anything to do with the > experiencing consciousness. > > Howard: > Of course, if 'desirable' and 'undesirable' mean something > other than inducing desire or aversion, then this all goes out the > window. But, in that case, it is obligatory on the user of these > terms to spell out exactly what s/he means by 'desirable' and > 'undesirable' - desirable for what? in what sense? by what criteria? > ... > I only say that no objective criterion has been given. I offer > "tending to induce desire" or "bearing pleasant taste" as criterion. > > Jon: > Personally I would consider your "bearing pleasant taste" a better > choice than 'desirable', but for whatever reason the Pali term used > is apparently 'desirable'. But even 'pleasant' would leave open the > question of what is meant by 'pleasant', so one comes back to the > explanation given rather than relying on the term used. The answer > to that is, as we have already heard in this thread, pleasant by the > reckoning of the average person, i.e., not a person who is > excessively sensitive or insensitive as regards such matters. > > Jon > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27026 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello Sarah, >In short, I see nothing in the Visuddhimagga that conflicts with what we >have already read in the various suttas and Abhidhamma regarding the one >Path. I’d be glad to look at any further references in this regard. I agree with you and thanks for the thorough explanation. I also had a similar understanding and was somewhat confused by what Kalupahana wrote in respect of the 'one way'. But again although it looks like he is wrong in this case, I still think this does not invalidate his core argument which is in relation to how dhammas or ultimate realities are treated in the commentaries. This is the key issue which has been the object of criticism by subsequent schools of Buddhism. And although I feel like a commmited Theravadin, I believe that those critics have a very good and valid point and Theravada practitioners should open their eyes and be aware of those shortcomings in the commentaries. Metta Michael 27027 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Howard, What does anatta mean in the context of the suttas? Larry 27028 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Suan, Some additional comments below... >From: "abhidhammika" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael >Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:48 -0000 > > > >Dear Michael, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, James and all > >How are you? My answers follow Michael's statements. > >Mike B: I am doing well, thank you. Hope you are also doing well and >not too much upset by my message. > >Suan: I am well, and unable to find reason to be upset by your >message. OK. I feel better then. I misinterpreted the tone of your message. > >Mike B: Read the whole post to get to the kernel of his argument. >Don't get lost in one word which I am not sure either if you are >right or not. > >Suan: Thank you for this advice. But, if you are not sure whether I >am right or wrong, I do not see the point in explaining things to you. > Precisely because I am not sure you could be more compassionate and dispell my ignorance. > Do you follow what I just said? I do not want to waste my time as >well as your time. > > In fact, I never intended to take part in this thread. Only because >Robert K drew my attention to the thread by including my name in the >heading. > > The reason for planning to ignore the thread was that this type of >thread usually involved speculative arguments. > > Right now, Kalupahana's chapter on Buddhaghosa was long on his >personal speculative conclusions and short on quotes from Pali texts. > I still think that your approach is too narrow focused. I am presenting an elephant and you are puzzled by the trunk wiithout looking at the whole animal. Look for my other posts to Saraha and Robert in this respect. > >Mike B: Yes I am sure. And you should be more carefull with your >language. Bad karma you know :) > >Suan: So you were upset by my question! Sorry about that, but it was >merely a literary device to stress the mistake of Kalupahana. Well, you are partially right, I was upset by your implication that I was lying and that I took as wrong speech on your part. > > Even though it was merely one word (ekaayano), as far as Buddhism >is concerned, the term "ekaayano maggo" represents one of the Four >Noble Truths. It means "One And The Only Way", and as such, is not >negotiable. I agree with you as mentioned in another post. > > If Kalupahana as a Professor of Buddhist Philosophy could not get >the important terms of the Buddha's teachings right, how could we >make sense of his arguments and conclusions? Still only looking at the elephant's trunk.... > >Mike B : > >If so, he did not understand even a very simple Pali >like "ekaayaano".< (from Suan's previous post) > >I don't know about this. But maybe you don't know it either (don't >take offense but I don't know you). Anyway this is not a key issue. >But if you are just trying to find a reason to reject what he is >saying, then go ahead and be happy. > >Suan: You discovered this list (dhammastudygroup) through the Pali >discussions beteen me and Nina, forwarded to Pali List by Nina. So >you might know, at least, that I am a Pali scholar. As a Pali >scholar, I surely know the Pali language and can consult the Buddha's >teachings, standard commentaries, subcommentaries and any related >texts written in Pali. I mention these things, only because you said >that you did not know me. For further information, though, the >bodhiology website can be the starting place. Sorry if I didn't know you. Now I know you a little bit better. I am happy to have found these groups. > > In fact, if you recalled, I requested you and other like-minded >critics of Buddhaghosa to provide me with Pali quotes from >commentaries that contradict the Buddha's teachings. Nobody was able >to do so so far. > > When you posted Kalupana's chapter on Buddhaghosa, the first things >I looked for were specific Pali passages Kalupahana might use in his >arguments. But, Kalupahana was not able to produce one single >reliable Pali quote from Buddhaghosa's commentaries that contradict >the Buddha's teachings. If you or someone think that I overlooked >something, please let me know and draw my attention to them, please. > > I wasn't finding a reason to reject what Kalupahana is saying. I >simply called a spade a spade. Kalupahana got it wrong when he >interpreted "ekaayano" as "one goal". --- Sarah, thank you for taking >care of this aspect of Kalupahana's mistakes. --- Yes he probably got it wrong here but I don't think he got it wrong in saying that the commentaries categorize dhammas as svabhava. > > The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" can be found in >Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (The Establishment Of >Recollection/Mindfulness). The term "ayano" has different meanings, >but in the phrase "eka + ayano" it means "road or way". If you have a >Pali-English dictionary, please look up the term there. The >term "eka" normally means "one", but it can also take on the meaning >of "one and only one" when used as in "ekaayano maggo". Thus, we >get "The Only Way" when we mention "Maggo" as the Buddhist path. > > The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" in >Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (Discourse On The Establishment Of >Recollection) is used to signify (as adjectives) the four >establishings of recollection (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Here, the >Buddha was describing the establishment of recollection as the Only >Way (for overcoming worry and grief, , and for realizing >nibbaana). > >This type of singling out one component, namely right recollection, >of the Noble Eightfold Path and equating it with the path (equating a >part with the whole) is called "Teaching By Making Recollection As >Head" (Satisiisena). > >To Be Continued.... > >With regards, Metta > >Suan Michael > >http://www.bodhiology.org > 27029 From: Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/16/03 12:03:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > What does anatta mean in the context of the suttas? > > Larry > =========================== Mostly, it means impersonal and without self. The point is, in part, I think, what did atta/atma mean in India at that time. I believe it meant essence/fixed core and true, self-sufficient being. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27030 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:23am Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott Yes, there can be there be mindfulness of consciousness in consciousness, in the same way as there can be mindfulness of feeling in feeling. Hi Jon, I have had a change of mind. I don't think consciousness by itself can be an object of consciousness. I would say consciousness ALWAYS arises with cetasikas. The 121 consciousnesses are actually 121 combinations of the 52 cetasikas. Consciousness as object would be one of the 121 combinations. Cetasika as object would be one of the 52 cetasikas as object, not in combination. The same applies to the two tranquility cetasikas (possibly?). Tranquility of the mental body would be tranquility applied (?) to one of the cetasikas of the mental body (feeling, perception, mental formations). Tranquility of consciousness would be tranquility applied to one of the 121 combinations. Obviously this means the object of consciousness can be a group. I don't see any way around this, plus there is a precedent. Rupa arises as a group of the 4 primaries. At least we could say it is just one group. 27031 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: D, no II, 83: Hi Nina, Well done! When rupa is object is it one or four or one group of four? When we are mindful of the four elements in our body are we mindful of them one at a time or all four at once? Larry 27032 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Howard, Could you substantiate this with a sutta quote? If you wish, I could provide a quote to support my contention that anatta is a synonym for "empty of permanence". Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 11/16/03 12:03:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, > LBIDD@w... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > What does anatta mean in the context of the suttas? > > > > Larry > > > =========================== > Mostly, it means impersonal and without self. The point is, in part, I > think, what did atta/atma mean in India at that time. I believe it meant > essence/fixed core and true, self-sufficient being. > > With metta, > Howard > 27033 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: abhidhamma and science, Rob K Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > op 15-11-2003 20:02 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > First, you state all of this as if it is fact; it isn't fact, it is > > theory. I don't agree with this theory. Here is a summary of my > > thoughts on the subject: I do not believe that feeling is a single > > mental factor that arises with thoughts. This is an out of date and > > old fashioned idea. Feeling is a physical response in the body, > > triggered by neurotransmitters in the brain, leading to physiological > > reactions in the body, which stem from thoughts. .... All of these > > thoughts and feelings are focused on survival. > N: It is all right James. J: hehehe…you sound like one trying to calm a mad dog. Are you afraid I might bite? ;-) Don't worry. Don't be deceived by writing, it doesn't always reveal mental state. It does not help you if I say, do not compare > Abhidhamma with science. Or if I say the Abhidhamma helps us to know > presently arisen realities, it is for practice. Or, by knowing conditions > you will cling less to my body, my mind. J: Now Nina, what if I don't want to stop clinging to your body?? ;- )) Seriously, your message here is quite different. Shortly after I joined this group and was learning the Abhidhamma, I asked you in a post if the Abhidhamma was to be taken literally or if it was symbolic, like Herman Hesse's `The Glass Bead Game'. You replied that it was to be taken literally, as a description for ultimate reality. Now you are saying that it doesn't have to be taken literally. Honestly, I am confused about your position. It does not help, because you are > used to thinking the way you do. You are not the only person, many others > think the way you describe above. > Rob K is a scientist and he fully appreciates Abhidhamma. He wrote a few > years ago about a dialogue he had with scientists about this subject. Rob, > please could you reproduce some of it for James and others? J: Again, shortly after I had joined this group, Rob M. (different Rob, but anyway) explained to me in a post that he doesn't view Abhidhamma as a scientific description, that it is unscientific and he realizes that, but that it is used as a means for releasing one from conceptual `ego' thinking. I still think he should meditate, but I took that as a valid answer. As you may or may not have noticed, I don't write posts challenging the Abhidhamma posts of Rob M. He doesn't discuss it in the same light that you do. > J:Consciousness, > > however, isn't focused on survival and isn't limited to the functions > > of the brain. Consciousness is fully aware. It is because of this > > that the watcher can become the watched and that Nibbana is possible. > N: You see consciousness differently from what most scientists think. Here > you will not put the brain central as some people do. The question is only: > aware of what and how? J: Scientists don't really have a theory of consciousness. What they are discovering, through brain research, is that consciousness appears to be `more than the sum of its parts'. In other words, the functions of the brain, added up, doesn't adequately explain consciousness. The Buddha didn't explain the functions of consciousness...not necessary to eliminate suffering. My thinking on the subject is greatly influenced by Eckhart Tolle. But I cannot add anything new that would interest > you. J: Never know. If you introduce something new, I think I would be very interested. > Nina. Metta, James 27034 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:13pm Subject: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 44. Then they may say: 'Just as you assume, from excess of some primary element in such and such material things, the [respective] functions of upholding (sandhaara.na), etc., for earth, etc., so from finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of excess(19) in material things that have fire in excess, one may assume that visible data, etc., are [respectively] qualities of these'. They should be told: 'We might assume it if there were more odour in cotton, which has earth in excess, than in fermented liquor, which has water in excess, and if the colour of cold water were weaker than the colour of hot water, which has heat in excess. 45. 'But since neither of these is a fact, you should therefore give up conjecturing the difference to be in the supporting primary elements. Just as the natures of visible objects, etc., are dissimilar from each other though there is no difference in the primaries that form a single group, so too are eye-sensitivity, etc., though no other cause of their difference exists'.(20) This is how it should be taken. But what is it that is not common to them all?(21) It is the kamma itself that is the reason for their difference. Therefore their difference is due to difference of kamma, not to difference of primary elements; for if there were difference of primary elements, sensitivity itself would not arise, since the Ancients have said: 'Sensitivity is of those that are equal, not of those that are unequal'. ---------------------------- (19) ' "From finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of excess": from finding them associated with these differences, namely, the bright visible datum in fire, sound audible through its individual essence in air, the odour beginning with surabhi perfume in earth, and the sweet taste of water; thus "visible data, etc., are the [respective] qualities of these". This is according to the first theory, and he has stated the conclusion (uttara) that follows, beginning with "we might assume" in terms of that. The second is confuted in the same way. Or alternatively, "Then they may say", etc., can be taken as said emphasizing, in order to confute it, the theory of Kanada, which asserts that the eye, etc., are respectively made of fire, space, earth, water, and air, that have visible data, etc., as their respective qualities' (Pm.445). (20) In the P.T.S. text and the Sinhalese Hewavitarne text the word "ekakalaape", 'that form a single group', occurs in this sentence but is not in the Harvard text. (21) 'If there is no differentiation according to primaries, what then is the reason for the differentiation of the eye, and so on? Though the kamma that is produced by the longing for a selfhood (individual personality) with five sense-bases is one only, still it should be taken as called "not common to them all" and "difference of kamma" because it is the cause of the differentiation of the eye, and so on. For it is not a condition for the ear through the same particular difference through which it is a condition for the eye, since, if it were, it would then follow that there was no distinction between the faculties. Because of the words, "At the moment of rebirth-linking, exalted volition is a condition, as kamma condition, for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed that come into existence at the moment of rebirth-linking. For if the volition were different, then, when there came to be the arising of the faculties, it would follow that the materiality due to kamma performed was generated by limited and exalted kamma. And rebirth-linking that is one is not generated by a plurality of kinds of kamma. Thus it is established that the arising of the plurality of the faculties is due to a single kamma' (Pm.446). 27035 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:46pm Subject: Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Hi all, This is how I see this argument: Opponent: Blood is fluid so blood has water element in excess. Similarly, fire is bright so light has fire element in excess. Buddhaghosa: Blood is also red, warm, and substantial so we can't say it has water element in excess. Similarly there is no difference in appearance between hot blood and cold blood so we can't say the fire element is light. Since neither of these arguments is tenable we cannot say the distinctions of derived sense objects is due to particular primary elements. Larry: The object of the touch sense is primary, not derived matter, ie. heat, extension/solidity, pressure (air element), coherence (water element). Buddhaghosa: Since we can't explain the distinctions of derived matter (light, sound, taste, odour) by the 4 elements we can at least say that these distinctions arise because of kamma (desire). Larry: Works for me. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 44. Then they may say: 'Just as you assume, from excess of some > primary element in such and such material things, the [respective] > functions of upholding (sandhaara.na), etc., for earth, etc., so from > finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of excess(19) in > material things that have fire in excess, one may assume that visible > data, etc., are [respectively] qualities of these'. They should be > told: 'We might assume it if there were more odour in cotton, which > has earth in excess, than in fermented liquor, which has water in > excess, and if the colour of cold water were weaker than the colour > of hot water, which has heat in excess. > > 45. 'But since neither of these is a fact, you should therefore give > up conjecturing the difference to be in the supporting primary > elements. Just as the natures of visible objects, etc., are > dissimilar from each other though there is no difference in the > primaries that form a single group, so too are eye-sensitivity, etc., > though no other cause of their difference exists'.(20) This is how > it should be taken. > > But what is it that is not common to them all?(21) It is the kamma > itself that is the reason for their difference. Therefore their > difference is due to difference of kamma, not to difference of > primary elements; for if there were difference of primary elements, > sensitivity itself would not arise, since the Ancients have > said: 'Sensitivity is of those that are equal, not of those that are > unequal'. > ---------------------------- > (19) ' "From finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of > excess": from finding them associated with these differences, namely, > the bright visible datum in fire, sound audible through its > individual essence in air, the odour beginning with surabhi perfume > in earth, and the sweet taste of water; thus "visible data, etc., are > the [respective] qualities of these". This is according to the first > theory, and he has stated the conclusion (uttara) that follows, > beginning with "we might assume" in terms of that. The second is > confuted in the same way. Or alternatively, "Then they may say", > etc., can be taken as said emphasizing, in order to confute it, the > theory of Kanada, which asserts that the eye, etc., are respectively > made of fire, space, earth, water, and air, that have visible data, > etc., as their respective qualities' (Pm.445). > > (20) In the P.T.S. text and the Sinhalese Hewavitarne text the > word "ekakalaape", 'that form a single group', occurs in this > sentence but is not in the Harvard text. > > (21) 'If there is no differentiation according to primaries, what > then is the reason for the differentiation of the eye, and so on? > Though the kamma that is produced by the longing for a selfhood > (individual personality) with five sense-bases is one only, still it > should be taken as called "not common to them all" and "difference of > kamma" because it is the cause of the differentiation of the eye, and > so on. For it is not a condition for the ear through the same > particular difference through which it is a condition for the eye, > since, if it were, it would then follow that there was no distinction > between the faculties. Because of the words, "At the moment of > rebirth-linking, exalted volition is a condition, as kamma condition, > for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed that come into > existence at the moment of rebirth-linking. For if the volition were > different, then, when there came to be the arising of the faculties, > it would follow that the materiality due to kamma performed was > generated by limited and exalted kamma. And rebirth-linking that is > one is not generated by a plurality of kinds of kamma. Thus it is > established that the arising of the plurality of the faculties is due > to a single kamma' (Pm.446). 27036 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:05pm Subject: Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Correction Hi Nina, Here is a correction to note 21. Also I was wondering what is exalted volition and limited and exalted kamma? Larry (21) 'If there is no differentiation according to primaries, what then is the reason for the differentiation of the eye, and so on? Though the kamma that is produced by the longing for a selfhood (individual personality) with five sense-bases is one only, still it should be taken as called "not common to them all" and "difference of kamma" because it is the cause of the differentiation of the eye, and so on. For it is not a condition for the ear through the same particular difference through which it is a condition for the eye, since, if it were, it would then follow that there was no distinction between the faculties. Because of the words, "At the moment of rebirth-linking, exalted volition is a condition, as kamma condition, for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed"(P.tn.) IT MUST BE RECOGNIZED THAT A SINGLE VOLITION IS KAMMA CONDITION FOR ALL KINDS OF MATERIALITY DUE TO KAMMA PERFORMED that come into existence at the moment of rebirth-linking. For if the volition were different, then, when there came to be the arising of the faculties, it would follow that the materiality due to kamma performed was generated by limited and exalted kamma. And rebirth-linking that is one is not generated by a plurality of kinds of kamma. Thus it is established that the arising of the plurality of the faculties is due to a single kamma' (Pm.446). 27037 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma and science, Rob K Not a scientist, Nina! Just a teacher with a passing interest in the beliefs of scientists. I think science has little useful to say about the mind: The definition of consciousness in the International Dictionary of Psychology: "Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon; it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written about it" (cited in Crick, 1994, vii). Philosopher of mind Collin McGinn writes in his summary of the different ideas about mind: "The head spins in theoretical disarray; no explanatory model suggests itself; bizarre ontologies loom. There is a feeling of intense confusion, but no clear idea of where the confusion lies" (1993,). RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > op 15-11-2003 20:02 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > First, you state all of this as if it is fact; it isn't fact, it is > > theory. I don't agree with this theory. Here is a summary of my > > thoughts on the subject: I do not believe that feeling is a single > > mental factor that arises with thoughts. This is an out of date and > > old fashioned idea. Feeling is a physical response in the body, > > triggered by neurotransmitters in the brain, leading to physiological > > reactions in the body, which stem from thoughts. .... All of these > > thoughts and feelings are focused on survival. > N: It is all right James. It does not help you if I say, do not compare > Abhidhamma with science. Or if I say the Abhidhamma helps us to know > presently arisen realities, it is for practice. 27038 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Sukin, Please don't think that your questions were not proper for me. I shall reply to your questions. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Azita, [snip] 27039 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:51am Subject: Exceptionally Clear ! Friends: The Difference ! Venerable Maha-Kotthita once asked Venerable Sariputta: Friend, what is the difference between one who is Dead & the Bhikkhu who has entered upon the state of Cessation of Perception & Feeling ? Friend, in one who is dead all his bodily, verbal & mental Constructions (activities) has ceased & subsided, his Vitality (metabolism) is exhausted, his Heat has been dissipated & his Abilities are fully broken up ? In the Bhikkhu, however, who has entered Cessation, all his bodily, verbal & mental constructions has ceased & subsided, but his Metabolism is not exhausted, his Heat is not dissipated & his Abilities have become Exceptionally Clear !!! This is the difference between one who is dead & the Bhikkhu, who has entered the state of cessation of perception & feeling ? Commentary: The abilities within ordinary life are soiled by the vast details of sensing, just as a mirror set up at a highway is covered with dust & dirt? The abilities within cessation of perception & feeling are exceptionally clear, just as a polished mirror, which wrapped in silk is stored in a sealed box? Source: Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha Majjhima Nikaya [i 296], Mahavedalla Sutta 43. The Great Series of Questions & Answers. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] bhikkhu_samahita@y... 27040 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael ========= > RobertK,:Professor Kalupahana says that "With the pursuit of such an essentialist > >conceptual enterprise, the explanation of events or entities in terms of > >their dependence (paticcasamuppada) >was relegated to the background." It > >is difficult to understand how the professor reached such a conclusion. ============== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > It is not difficult at all to understand this conclusion because assuming > that phenomena have any sort of essence, or that there are phenomena that > can be regarded as having an ultimate substantial nature (svabhava), then > there is no way to justify dependent origination. Dependent origination only > works if there is no ultimate substantial nature in phenomena, if phenomena > are entirely subject to causes and conditions. And that in brief is what has > been proven by Nagarjuna. So, if you accept any kind of svabhava, you cannot > justify dependent origination, they are contradictory. ============= Dear Michael, I know very little about what Nagajuna said or proved, just what people have told me over the years. I am not sure but I think the term svabhava you use is from sanskrit and might be roughly the same as sabhava in the pali. From what you write I wonder if professor Kalupahana and yourself are suggesting that the ancient Theravada bhikkhus believed that some phenomena, apart from nibbana, were unconditioned? Also if we leave aside the semantics of sabhava/svabhava what does the word 'phenomena' mean to you or Nagajuna or Kalupahana? Robertk 27041 From: Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/16/03 12:43:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Could you substantiate this with a sutta quote? If you wish, I could > provide a quote to support my contention that anatta is a synonym > for "empty of permanence". > > Larry > ==================== Do you mean to substantiate that anatta primarily means impersonal and without self? That seems rather obvious and uncontroversial to me. In any case, I'm not much good at quotes, Larry, and particularly not right now. Perhaps sometime soon. Right now I'm too exhausted to do a search of any sort. We're in the midst of finishing up the settling my mother-in-law's affairs, the arrangements of which are complex. We just finished the last day of the formal "mourning" period for her, and I'm just a bit too done in right now to do much more than write things "off the top of my head". I'll try to remember to get back to you on this, though. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27042 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Dear Suan, I am very happy you wrote this post, and I like very much the end, learning about "Teaching By Making Recollection As Head" (Satisiisena). Looking forward to your following post, Nina. op 16-11-2003 16:21 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" in > Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (Discourse On The Establishment Of > Recollection) is used to signify (as adjectives) the four > establishings of recollection (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Here, the > Buddha was describing the establishment of recollection as the Only > Way (for overcoming worry and grief, , and for realizing > nibbaana). > > This type of singling out one component, namely right recollection, > of the Noble Eightfold Path and equating it with the path (equating a > part with the whole) is called "Teaching By Making Recollection As > Head" (Satisiisena). > 27043 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Right now I'm too exhausted to do a search of any sort. > We're in > the midst of finishing up the settling my mother-in-law's affairs, the > arrangements of which are complex. We just finished the last day of the > formal > "mourning" period for her, and I'm just a bit too done in right now to > do much more > than write things "off the top of my head". ...... I’ve been thinking about you and Rita. I’m sure you are exhausted after being on call for so long, so please get plenty of rest and don’t expect to be ‘back to normal’ in a hurry. Pace yourselves out. It all takes time, far more than anticipated usually. One step at a time. Please let us know if there’s anyway we can help at this time by way of any particular reminders or references or anything else on DSG. Meanwhile, we appreciate any of your "off the top of my head" comments. Let us know how you’re doing from time to time. Meanwhile a special extra dollop of metta and best wishes for sati and panna even at times of exhaustion and mourning;-) "Sabbe dhammaa anattaa ti yadaa pa~n~naaya passati Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyaa" Dhp 279 "All Dhammas are without a soul, when this, with wisdom,one discerns then is one disgusted with ill; this is the path to purity." (Naarada transl) Sarah ====== 27044 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:35pm Subject: The 5 releasers! Friends: The 5 releasing Abilities (indriya): The Ability of Trust (saddha) becomes a Power, when unskakable by scepticism. Trust emerges within the 4 factors of stream entry. The Ability of Energy (viriya) becomes a Power ,when unskakable by laziness. Enthusiastic Energy emerges within the 4 best efforts. The Ability of Awareness (sati) becomes a Power, when unskakable by neglect. Awareness emerges within the 4 foundations of awareness. The Ability of Concentration (samadhi) becomes a Power, when unskakable by agitated distraction. Concentration emerges within the 4 levels of Jhana absorption. The Ability of Understanding (panna) becomes a Power when, unskakable by ignorance. Understanding emerges within the 4 Noble Truths... --oo0oo-- Source: The Path of Discrimination. Patisambhidamagga IV: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] bhikkhu_samahita@y... Friendship is truly GREATEST ! For Gladdening of Good People ! Goodwill Motivates all Noble Life ! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ Easy subscription by sending an email to: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 27045 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie (RobM & All). Thanks for paddling along further;-) and Rob, for your further clear summaries. --- connie wrote: > I was having trouble understanding how a rupa could be inherently > desirable. It is lobha, not the rupa, that shouts DESIRABLE. .... I agree with your comment. Hence, the characteristic of lobha as desiring or attaching can be known, but we can only speculate about rupas that have already fallen away as to their desirability or not. When visible object or sound or hardness are the objects of awareness, there is no idea of ‘desirable/undesirable rupa’. However, lobha has been accumulated to like or shout DESIRABLE as soon as such rupas are experienced;-). It knows just what it likes;-). Hence we are reminded throughout the texts that mental development ‘is like the earth’ which accepts the dust,dirt and excrement without being affected or overwhelmed. From a recent extract of the Raahyulovaada sutta we read: “Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula, For, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, will not persistently overwhelm the mind.” The commentary as Nina translated, elaborated: “Now he said to him, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ‘like the earth’ and so on. Someone who is not attached nor has aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable (i.t.thaani.t.thesu) is called ‘of such nature’.......... With reference to the expression, they do not persistently obsess the mind, this means, when these impressions have arisen....” I’m also reminded by the quote about ‘like the earth’ to Sariputta’s Lion’s Roar in which he stresses the same point of developing detachment, regardless of the objects experienced through the senses. He gives his own exemplary example: From B.Bodhi’s “Numerical Discourses of the Buddha’, under ‘Sariputta’s Lion’s Roar’, p231. “Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean, dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow monk and leave without an apology.” ***** C: >I was > thinking that 'desirable rupa' meant there was, (sputter), somehow > something about the rupa itself that should make me recognize it as > being a good thing. But the characteristics of whichever rupa we talk > about stay the same, neutral, now one and now another being experienced. .... I think we can only speculate about ‘good’ and ‘bad’ rupas being experienced, associating ‘good’ with pleasant of course;-) Whilst the feeling accompanying, say, seeing consciousness is neutral (with exceptions), I don’t think we can describe the rupa as ‘neutral’, but your point is that they remain as they are conditioned , regardless of subsequent cittas and kilesas (defilements) which may arise. .... C: > When a bunch of realities are all lumped together and called a slap > upside the head and we say I'm perverse if I like that (unless the > majority of the normal folk agree with me), it isn't really saying > anything about the characteristics of rupa... just about what the normal > lobha consensus is... <..> .... This is true. Even if we don’t like it and react with dosa or even moha, it can be said to be ‘perverse’. As RobM explained, we can still use ‘a slap on the head’ or ‘hearing anger’ as examples of experiencing akusala vipaka I think. It just depends how they are understood however,as you point out. In truth, no ‘slap’, no ‘head’ and so on. This is why we have to understand paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) in order to understand what is meant in the suttas and conventional language. .... <....> C: > I wondered what was undesirable > about the heat needed to cook rice... not that I want to experience that > heat directly. And I really don't know anything about fire-walkers, > either, but it seems that the heat there is a desirable support for > faith. .... I think we could speculate for ever along these lines and lose the plot so to speak. I’m reminded from a quote (taken somewhat out of context from the latest Vism installment, ch X1V,44): “'We might assume it if there were more odour in cotton, which has earth in excess, than in fermented liquor, which has water in excess, and if the colour of cold water were weaker than the colour of hot water, which has heat in excess. 45. 'But since neither of these is a fact, you should therefore give up conjecturing the difference to be in the supporting primary elements.” Also, we may get more confused if we refer to ‘desirable support’. What do you think? ***** C: >The same way, although it's not a rupa, fear of hell can be an > inducement for kusala... but would it be a cogent one? .... As we have discussed, anything can be a condition for kusala or akusala states. however, by ‘cogent’ I think we were referring to arammanupanissaya paccaya (decisive support of object) and for this condition, the objects have to be a powerful or cogent inducement by way of being desirable. So fear of hell would be a kind of dosa which wouldn’t qualify. It would have to be a condition by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support) only. .... <..> C: >... like you said about phassa being "both a decisive support for > citta to experience its object at each moment and also a mental > nutriment for this contact. It must also act as a condition in many > other ways too, such as by conascent condition for other cetasikas and > the citta, etc, etc." ... I understand you now. As you say, a dhamma can have many conditioning forces. Lobha (attachment) can be both object decisive support as well as natural decisive support as well as a condition in many other ways for more attachment to arise over and over again. C: > dog paddling, .. Likewise;-) Hope you're not sputtering and choling too much this time. Metta, Sarah p.s I’m sure many people may be confused by all these comments on Decisive Support Condition and the different kinds we're discussing. If you would like to write a summary of each, perhaps with a little introduction as to where this elephant trunk fits in, or post the details from Nina’s book, maybe, in bite-size pieces, it would be helpful for others who’d also like to paddle along. Anyway, you think might bring others to where your comments are coming from would be good. ====== 27046 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina / transference of merit. Hi Thomas & Nina, --- nordwest wrote: > Dear Nina, try not to become attached to orders in rituals etc. Anyorder > you make is the right one. There will be a point on the path, when we > all have to burn all buddhist texts, stop reading, and stop being a > buddhist, to become finally a buddha. Any dualism, "right order-worng > order" would become an obstruction to realizing complete emptiness. ..... I think it’s a good point about not mistaking rituals for being the path or necessarily wholesome states at all. When we follow such practices, such as the service RobM described with the pirit thread and water pouring and so on, it just depends on the intentions and understanding as he explained. We can only know for ourselves. Thomas, I asked Nina to help provide more references about ‘sharing merit’ (as she said, ‘transfer’ can so easily be misunderstood). I greatly appreciated the examples she gave and the reminders for us even now to share and rejoice in each others’ good deeds. This can be as we listen to/read the Dhamma, share the Dhamma with each other and straighten our views by developing satipatthana. Thomas, you’ve mentioned here about finally becoming a Buddha and in another post to Michael, you wrote “we are all buddhas”. I’d like to just mention in passing, that according to the Theravada texts, that this is not so. We are not Buddhas and are not expecting or aiming to become Buddhas. The Bodhi citta and idea of a potential Buddha within us all is only taught in other (Mahayana) traditions. When we use the word ‘pure’ to describe consciousness, it depends what we mean. I think it can be misleading. Nina, thank you for reminding me about Nanda’s mother and the deva Vessavana. I think the detail in the commentary to the ‘Without the walls Discourse’ details that it is the partaking of the nutriment offered (as described in the sutta) that can only benefit this kind of peta. As you explain, others, even devas, can share and appreciate the merit of our deeds. As you also say, there can be kusala before, during and after giving when one recollects it. I liked RobM’s example of using the thread to recollect good deeds performed. Wise reflection on dhamma can be moments of samatha (calm), or there may be moments of satipatthana when realities are known. So often, attachment creeps in all the time, however, especially when there is any idea of ‘doing’ this or ‘having kusala’, for example. I read in a Wheel booklet that “The efficacy of chanting of parittas is discussed” in various commentaries such as: VinA 11, pp472,476; DA 111, pp962-70, SA 1, pp 341-2 and AA 11, p9. I don’t have access to any of these, however, though we’ve touched on this subject before. Thank you and RobM again directing us to look at the textual support further. It’s been helpful for me. A little more from the commentary to the Without-The-Walls-Discourse which I found interesting: “Either it was uttered for the purpose of showing that although someone neglectful in the practice of profitable action of the various kinds.....may be reborn in a place better than the actual hells and animal womb, yet he may still be reborn among such ghosts as these, and consequently no one should be negligent therein; or else it wa uttered for the purpose of showing that some of the beings by whom Vesali was plagued...” “ ‘then let this be for relatives’, nevertheless it is not that action done by one gives fruit for another, [which is never so] but simply that an object dedicatd in this way is a [necessary] condition for [ghost] realtives [themselves to do] profitable action, [and he showed] how such profitable action with that as its object generates its fruit at that very moment.” Metta, Sarah ====== 27047 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael, James & All, So I think we all agree on the trunk now. Nina and RobertK are looking at the body and Suan’s looking at the big picture and any Pali details. So I’ll try to help with the tail, especially as this is the part James has picked up on;-) [note: DK = D.Kalupahana] .... --- buddhatrue wrote: > Thank you very much for posting this information. I find most > interesting that Buddhaghosa actually fabricated a quote from the > Buddha to prove one of his theories (but not surprised). ..... Actually, I think he was careful not to accuse Buddhaghosa of this, but I agree it could be understood that way. Let’s take a look: DK: >.....Unfortunately, Buddhaghosa's philosophical language eliminated not only metaphysical conceptions, such as permanent and eternal subjects and objects, but also empirical distinctions like: woman (itthi) and man (purisa), retaining only the aggregates (khandha). .... In the latest section of Vism X1V, 36 and its tiika, mention was just given of the rupas of femininity faculty and masculinity faculty: “Itthiyava indriya.m itthinindriya.m, tathaa purisindriya.m The faculty of a woman is feminity faculty, and likewise there is masculinity faculty.” Perhaps I miss the significance of the comments. Perhaps the objection is to the clear presentation of all conditioned realities being included in the 5 khandhas without any loopholes for the inclusion of all the concepts we cling to as being absolute realities as well. Surely, the khandhas, the All (apart from nibbana), are just what are described over and over and over again throughout the Suttas? Surely the rupas are included in the dhatus (elements) and ayatanas (sense fields) also elaborated in the Suttas? Surely, it is the vain attempt to find characteristics and essence in ‘things’ and ‘beings’ that suggests the ‘essentialist enterprise’ which Buddhaghosa is being accused of? Let me know if I’ve lost the plot. .... DK: >The fact that this is an essentialist enterprise is made clear by his analysis of human life into discrete momentary events, which he justifies by quoting a passage that is supposed to be from the Buddha but that has not yet been traced in any of the early discourses. ..... As he doesn’t quote the passage here, my response is based on guess work. The passage quoted that first comes to my mind is one discussed recently: Vism V111,39 “ ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; The highest sense this concept will allow” (Nd 1, 42). (See detailed footnote 11 (Nanamoli transl) which details all the kinds ofconcepts.) The reference shows this comes from the Niddesa, the Maha Niddesa, I believe, which is the oldest of commentaries. It elaborates on part of the Sutta Nipata. There is no English translation, but the Pali is available. Both the Maha and Culla Niddesa are included in the Canon as part of the Khuddaka Nikáya. I believe it is usually attributed to Sariputta. If Suan or anyone has access to the Pali, perhaps they could check if it is there. While it is true that some suttas and commentaries have been lost over the years, I don’t think this means that quotes have been ‘fabricated’. I think this would have been rather obvious to those who were familiar with the same sources and used to reciting them;-). (We may be accused of the same by future generations, if our quotes out-live the texts;-( ) [By the way, James, I was looking at a Wheel publication today that you might find of interest: Buddhist Commentarial Literature by l.R. Goonesekere. He gives evidence to suggest that the ancient Sinhala commentaries referred to by Buddhaghosa and others were probably available until the thirteenth century and used by later authors until this time. “Just as Pali replaced Sinhala as the literary language at this time, so the Sinhala commentaries were superseded by the Pali commentaries which in addition were used more extensively. Buddhaghosa himself says, in the introduction to the Samantapaasaadikaa, that the commentary written in Sinhala was of no benefit to the bhikkhus outside Ceylon and therefore he was rendering it into Pali.” Goonesekere also gives many examples to show that Buddhaghosa stuck to the commentaries. For example in the introduction to the Samantapaasaadikaa (comy to Vinaya), the list of Vinaya teachers given from Mahinda up to ‘the present day’ (yaava ajjatanaa) does not include theras who lived after the first century A.C, indicating that the Sinhala commentaries were almost completed by this time.] Back to life at this moment: “ ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return.” Isn’t this a good reminder that can be proved right now? We read in the suttas about the speed of cittas (conscious moments) flicking by. For example, “Monks, I know not of any other single thing so quick to change as the mind: insomuch that it is no easy thing to illustrate how quick to change it is.” (AN, 1,10) Isn’t it true that the mental states and experience through the senses that are taken for ‘life’ and ‘me’ change far quicker than we have any idea. One moment ‘happy me’, next moment ‘sad me’ and so on. Those experiences seen, heard and experienced have gone for ever. Hence we are repeatedly reminded not to ‘revive the past’ or build our hopes on the future but with insight to see ‘each presently arisen state’ (MN, 131). We learn to see the meaning of death at each moment and to understand that only presently arising namas and rupas can ever be known. This is also what I read in the Satipatthana and all other suttas. Seeing consciousness, visible object, attachment, thinking and so on can only ever be known now, regardless of time, place and position. DK: > ....the Mahavihara monks did not realize its far-reaching implications. > I think that, on the contrary, they were very aware of the far-reaching benefits of the work. The most important ancient commentary which Buddhaghosa relied on was the Mahaa-a.t.thakathaa, the commentary of the Mahavihara monks. He was invited and tested in his work by these monks who would have been fully aware, I believe, of any deviations. I appreciate that others, like James and DK, view this differently. I look forward to any further comments from either of you or anyone else and also to the other discussions on this thread. There are still four feet for anyone else to join in and take a look at;-) Thanks again, Michael, for introducing these comments. I greatly appreciate your own careful reflections and open mind. With metta, Sarah ===== 27048 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / transference of merit. Thanks Sarah, glad I checked this the posting, as it was adressed to Nina,. :) It is just a short answer-problem, when I say "We are already a buddha" I mean, that we don't need to wait for anything, and could (theoretically and practically) become a buddha right now. Every sentient being could do so. Of course we can't because we struggle with the fact that our mind is not pure, so we don't know what is real and what illusion. When I, or anyone as many masters use this phrase too, says "to become a buddha", then it is to be understood in the very same way like mentioned above. We have the buddha-nature, but there is still something "to do" to clear the defiled mind so it will become the Pure Mind again. The most important about "Transfer of merit" is not, where the merit goes, but the motivation behind it. It is the motivation to benefit not oneself but other beings with one's own merits. Rituals are very important, just wanna mention this. They help us to train mindfulness, e.g. when lightening incense we concentrate only on this, so it is training of mindfulness. Gassho, Thomas Sarah wrote: Hi Thomas & Nina, --- nordwest wrote: > Dear Nina, try not to become attached to orders in rituals etc. Anyorder > you make is the right one. There will be a point on the path, when we > all have to burn all buddhist texts, stop reading, and stop being a > buddhist, to become finally a buddha. Any dualism, "right order-worng > order" would become an obstruction to realizing complete emptiness. ..... I think it’s a good point about not mistaking rituals for being the path or necessarily wholesome states at all. When we follow such practices, such as the service RobM described with the pirit thread and water pouring and so on, it just depends on the intentions and understanding as he explained. We can only know for ourselves. Thomas, I asked Nina to help provide more references about ‘sharing merit’ <...> 27049 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:16am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 25 [Regarding the 4 discriminations, meaning, law, language, perspicuity] 25. "Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law" (par.21): there is the language that is individual essence, the usage that has no exceptions, (9) and deals with that meaning and that law. Any knowledge falling within the category concerned with the enunciation of that, with the speaking, with the utterance of that, concerned with the root-speech of all beings, the Magadhan language that is individual essence, in other words, the language of law ("dhamma"), [any knowledge that] as soon as it hears it spoken, pronounced, uttered, knows, 'This is the individual-essence language; this is not the individual-essence language'--[such knowledge] is "discrimination of language".(10) [442] One who has reached the discrimination of language knows, on hearing the words 'phasso, vedanaa'. etc., that that is the individual-essence language, and on hearing 'phassaa, vedano', etc., he knows that that is not the individual-essence language. (9) Byabhicaara (vyabhicaara): not in P.T.S. Dict.; normal grammarian's term for an 'exception'. (10) The idea behind the term 'individual-essence language' (sabhaavanirutti), that is to say, that there is a real name for each thing that is part of that thing's individual essence, is dealt with at DhsA. 391-92. Magadhan as 'the root speech of all beings' and the 'individual-essence language' is dealt with in greater detail at VbhA. 387. 'Phasso' and 'vedanaa' as respectively masc. and fem. nom. sing. have the correct terminations. 'Phassaa' and 'vedano' are wrong. --------------------------- 25. tatradhammaniruttaabhilaape ~naa.nanti tasmi.m atthe ca dhamme ca yaa sabhaavanirutti abyabhicaarii vohaaro. tadabhilaape tassa bhaasane udiira.ne ta.m bhaasita.m lapita.m udiirita.m sutvaava aya.m sabhaavanirutti, aya.m na sabhaavaniruttiiti eva.m tassaa dhammaniruttisa~n~nitaaya sabhaavaniruttiyaa maagadhikaaya sabbasattaana.m muulabhaasaaya pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa. niruttipa.tisambhidaappatto hi phasso vedanaati evamaadivacana.m sutvaava aya.m sabhaavaniruttiiti jaanaati. phassaa vedanoti evamaadika.m pana aya.m na sabhaavaniruttiiti. 27050 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:39am Subject: Lobha, Tanha, Samudaya and Samyojana Dear Dhamma Friends, Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana are ultimate realities. No other single thing is a reality apart from these four Paramattha Dhamma. Citta is consciousness or is the nature that perceives, knows, recognizes, is aware of, realizes the object. The object can be visual object, auditory object, smell, taste, bodily sense or ideas. There are 89 Cittas or 89 states of consciousness. Citta itself is a single thing. But depending on accompanying Cetasikas, time, place, leading Dhamma and so on there are infinite Cittas. But again when Citta with the same qualities are groupped, there becomes 89 Cittas. Cetasikas are the nature that condition Citta concerned.There are 52 Cetasikas. 1. 7 Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas 2. 6 Pakinnaka Cetasikas 3. 14 Akusala Cetasikas 4. 25 Sobhana Cetasikas Out of 14 Akusala Cetasikas 1. 4 Moha-rooted Cetasikas 1. Moha 2. Ahirika 3.Anottappa 4.Uddacca 2. 3 Lobha-rooted Cetasikas 1. Lobha 2. Ditthi 3. Mana 3. 4 Dosa-rooted Cetasikas 1.Dosa 2.Issa 3.Micchariya 4. Kukkucca 4. 3 Other Cetasikas 1. Thina 2. Middha 3. Vicikiccha Among them Lobha is one of powerful Akusala Cetasikas. It is so poerful that it binds Sattas so that they are not able to depart the Samsara. Lobha has other different names. It has Samudaya effect. It is included in Samudaya Sacca. It is also called Tanha. Tanha again has different types. There are Kama Tanha, Bhava Tanha, and Vibhava Tanha. May all beings be able to delete Tanha With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27051 From: Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Dear Sarah - Thank you so very much for your kindness and sweetness. With much metta, Rita & Howard In a message dated 11/17/03 1:38:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Right now I'm too exhausted to do a search of any sort. > >We're in > >the midst of finishing up the settling my mother-in-law's affairs, the > >arrangements of which are complex. We just finished the last day of the > >formal > >"mourning" period for her, and I'm just a bit too done in right now to > >do much more > >than write things "off the top of my head". > ...... > I’ve been thinking about you and Rita. I’m sure you are exhausted after > being on call for so long, so please get plenty of rest and don’t expect > to be ‘back to normal’ in a hurry. Pace yourselves out. It all takes time, > far more than anticipated usually. One step at a time. > > Please let us know if there’s anyway we can help at this time by way of > any particular reminders or references or anything else on DSG. Meanwhile, > we appreciate any of your "off the top of my head" comments. Let us know > how you’re doing from time to time. > > Meanwhile a special extra dollop of metta and best wishes for sati and > panna even at times of exhaustion and mourning;-) > > "Sabbe dhammaa anattaa ti > yadaa pa~n~naaya passati > Atha nibbindati dukkhe > esa maggo visuddhiyaa" > > Dhp 279 > > "All Dhammas are without a soul, > when this, with wisdom,one discerns > then is one disgusted with ill; > this is the path to purity." (Naarada transl) > > Sarah /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27052 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Michael, James & All, > > So I think we all agree on the trunk now. James: Actually, I am not in agreement with anything. At the beginning of his chapter, Kalupahana is analyzing how Buddhaghosa explains the title of his treatse "The Path of Purification" (Visudhimagga). Kalupahana states that Buddhaghosa explains that there is one goal but apparently several paths. They are: 1. Insight (panna) 2. Contemplation and insight ljhana and panna) 3. Action (kamma) 4. Morality or virtue (sua) 5. Mindfulness (sati) 6. Right effort (samma vayama), etc.12 Now, there has been great agitation over this and post and counter post about how there aren't actually several paths, there is only one path. Okay. However, support for this contention is quotes that are being taken from all through the Visudhimagga but not from the introduction itself, which Kalupahana discusses. What exactly does Buddhaghosa write in the introduction? How does he explain the title for his book? Does he write that several paths are actually one path leading to one goal, or does he explain it differently? Anyway, as Michael points out, this is a minor point of contention. The main thrust of Kalupahana's argument is that Buddhaghosa then takes the liberty of redefining these six sub-paths as three: morality, concentration and insight. For the sake of clarity and categorization, this would be fine, but then Buddhaghosa takes these inventions as the true definition and further defines these three categories using even more sub-categories that he invented. The result of this, because Buddhaghosa summarizes the Buddha's teaching and then takes each of his summaries as the original, is that his analysis grows more and more distant from what the Buddha actually taught. Buddhaghosa's commentary is then very much like a house of cards- ideas all balanced on each other- but take one out and they all fall. Nina and RobertK are looking at > the body and Suan's looking at the big picture and any Pali details. So > I'll try to help with the tail, especially as this is the part James has > picked up on;-) James: I think this is a minor contention also. DK doesn't quote the sutta he is referring to so it is somewhat a dead issue. Your guess work is fine in this regard (even then, the quote isn't from a sutta), but there is no reason to argue using guesswork. > > [note: DK = D.Kalupahana] > > > [By the way, James, I was looking at a Wheel publication today that you > might find of interest: Buddhist Commentarial Literature by l.R. > Goonesekere. He gives evidence to suggest that the ancient Sinhala > commentaries referred to by Buddhaghosa and others were probably available > until the thirteenth century and used by later authors until this time. > "Just as Pali replaced Sinhala as the literary language at this time, so > the Sinhala commentaries were superseded by the Pali commentaries which in > addition were used more extensively. Buddhaghosa himself says, in the > introduction to the Samantapaasaadikaa, that the commentary written in > Sinhala was of no benefit to the bhikkhus outside Ceylon and therefore he > was rendering it into Pali." James: Yes, this is of interest to me. However, this quote doesn't support your introductory summary of the article. What authors used the original commentaries, in Sinhala, after Buddhaghosa? How is this shown? > > Goonesekere also gives many examples to show that Buddhaghosa stuck to the > commentaries. For example in the introduction to the Samantapaasaadikaa > (comy to Vinaya), the list of Vinaya teachers given from Mahinda up to > `the present day' (yaava ajjatanaa) does not include theras who lived > after the first century A.C, indicating that the Sinhala commentaries were > almost completed by this time.] Metta, James 27053 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael >Dear Michael, >I know very little about what Nagajuna said or proved, just what people >have told me over the years. I am not sure but I think the term svabhava >you use is from sanskrit and might be roughly the same as sabhava in the >pali. >From what you write I wonder if professor Kalupahana and yourself are >suggesting that the ancient Theravada bhikkhus believed that some >phenomena, apart from nibbana, were unconditioned? Also if we leave aside >the semantics of sabhava/svabhava what does the word 'phenomena' mean to >you or Nagajuna or Kalupahana? >Robertk RobertK, That is precisely the argument. Some of the Pali commentaries (in the Visudhimagga for instance) entertain the idea that phenomena (or dhammas) are irreductible entities and have an inherent nature, are real in the ultimate sense (sabhava/svabhava). They are not called unconditioned but subject to dependent origination, but having a real nature. Those ideas were criticised initially by Nagarjuna, and later by the Mahayana in general. Interestingly Nagarjuna used as a basis for his criticism a sutta from the Pali Canon. Metta Michael 27054 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:19am Subject: Dhamma Issues I Dear all, Alan put the Dhamma Issues I which I translated from Thai on his web under E Books: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I am starting now my translation of no II on the Latent tendencies, it is a whole book on this subject. Nina. 27055 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi Larry, op 16-11-2003 18:35 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: When rupa is object is it one or four or one group of > four? When we are mindful of the four elements in our body are we > mindful of them one at a time or all four at once? N: One characteristic at a time. Citta and thus also citta with mindfulness can have only one object at a time. Earth appears as hardness or softness, Fire appears as heat or cold. When citta experiences cold it cannot experience hardness at the same time. Nina. 27056 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Hi Larry, Cohesion is not tangible object. It can only be experienced through the mind-door. You have a lot of texts, thank you. But, for me it is too fast. How can we absorb it all? I also try to read Vis text Pali apart from the Tiika. I still have to asnwer your Q about no 37. But if most people like this tempo, it is OK, but I am just dragging behind. Nina. op 16-11-2003 22:46 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Larry: The object of the touch sense is primary, not derived matter, > ie. heat, extension/solidity, pressure (air element), coherence > (water element). 27057 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Correction Hi Larry, Exalted is usually a transl of jhana. No chance to look at the Pali yet, but it must be jhanacitta that produces rebirth. Yes, it says mahaggata: that is jhanacitta. Nina. op 16-11-2003 23:05 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Here is a correction to note 21. Also I was wondering what is exalted > volition and limited and exalted kamma? 27058 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Sarah, >DK: The fact that this is an essentialist enterprise is made clear by his >analysis >of human life into discrete momentary events, which he justifies by >quoting a passage that is supposed to be from the Buddha but that has not >yet been traced in any of the early discourses. ..... >Sarah: As he doesn’t quote the passage here, my response is based on guess >work. I didn't quote the passage not to overload the message even more. The passage DK mentions is Vism 328. Metta Michael 27059 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:14am Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hello James, Michael, RobK, Suan, Sarah and All, James, you say: ">Actually, I am not in agreement with anything. At the beginning of his chapter, Kalupahana is analyzing how Buddhaghosa explains the title of his treatse "The Path of Purification" (Visudhimagga). Kalupahana states that Buddhaghosa explains that there is one goal but apparently several paths. They are: > 1. Insight (panna) > 2. Contemplation and insight ljhana and panna) > 3. Action (kamma) > 4. Morality or virtue (sila) > 5. Mindfulness (sati) > 6. Right effort (samma vayama), etc.12 > > Now, there has been great agitation over this and post and counter > post about how there aren't actually several paths, there is only one > path. Okay. However, support for this contention is quotes that are > being taken from all through the Visudhimagga but not from the > introduction itself, which Kalupahana discusses. What exactly does > Buddhaghosa write in the introduction? How does he explain the title > for his book? Does he write that several paths are actually one path > leading to one goal, or does he explain it differently? James - the best way is to see for your self - part of the Visuddhi- magga is on-line by permission of the Buddhist Publication Society (all rights reserved). (*Note to RobK - I can't open section 1 of the Vis. at this site and so had to cut and past from Dhamma-List Files Section.) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-1.htm The Path of Purification (Visuddhi-magga) Part I. Virtue (Sila) CHAPTER I. DESCRIPTION OF VIRTUE (Sila-niddesa) [1. Introductory] I. [1] `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle' (S.i,13) This was said. But why was it said? While the Blessed One was living at Savatthi, it seems, a certain deity came to him in the night, and in order to do away with his doubts he asked this question: `The inner tangle and the outer tangle- `This generation is entangled in a tangle. `And so I ask of Gotama this question: `Who succeeds in disentangling this tangle?' (S.i, 13). 2. Here is the meaning in brief. Tangle is a term for the network of craving. For that is a tangle in the sense of lacing together, like the tangle called network of branches in bamboo thickets, etc., because it goes on arising again and again up and down among the objects [of consciousness] beginning with what is visible. But it is called the inner tangle and the outer tangle because it arises [as craving] for one's own requisites and another's, for one's own person and another's, and for the internal and external bases [for consciousness]. Since it arises in this way, this generation is entangled in a tangle. As the bamboos, etc., are entangled by the bamboo tangle, etc., so too this generation, in other words, this order of living beings, is all entangled by the tangle of craving- the meaning is that it is intertwined, interlaced by it. [2] And because it is entangled like this, so I ask of Gotama this question, that is why I ask this. He addressed the Blessed One by his race name as Gotama. Who succeeds in disentangling this tangle: who may disentangle this tangle that keeps the three kinds of existence entangled in this way? - What he asks is, who is capable of disentangling it? 3. However, when questioned thus, the Blessed One, whose knowledge of all things is unimpeded, Deity of Deities, excelling Sakka [Ruler of Gods], excelling Brahma, fearless in the possession of the four kinds of perfect confidence, Wielder of the Ten Powers, All-seer with unobstructed knowledge, uttered this stanza in reply to explain the meaning: `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. * * * 4. My task is now to set out the true sense, Divided into virtue and the rest, Of this same verse composed by the Great Sage. There are here in the Victor's Dispensation Seekers gone forth from home to homelessness, And who although desiring purity Have no right knowledge of the sure straight way Comprising virtue and the other two, Right hard to find, that leads to purity- Who, though they strive, here gain no purity. To them I shall expound the comforting Path Of Purification, pure in expositions, Relying on the teaching of the dwellers In the Great Monastery; let all those Good men who do desire purity Listen intently to my exposition. 5. Herein, purification should be understood as nibbana, which being devoid of all stains, is utterly pure. The Path of Purification is the path to that purification; it is the means of approach that is called the path. The meaning is, I shall expound that path of purification. 6. In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone, according as it is said: `Formations are all impermanent: `When he sees thus with understanding `And turns away from what is ill, `That is the path to purity' (Dh. 277). [3] And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is said: `He is near unto nibbana `In whom are jhana and understanding' (Dh. 372). And in some instances by deeds (kamma), etc., according as it is said: `By deeds, vision and righteousness, `By virtue, the sublimest life - `By these are mortals purified, `And not by lineage and wealth' (M.iii,262) And in some instances by virtue, etc., according as it is said: `He who is possessed of constant virtue, `Has understanding, and is concentrated, `Is strenuous and diligent as well, `Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' (S.i, 53). And in some instances by the Foundations of Mindfulness, etc., according as it is said: `Bhikkhus, this path is the only `way for the purification of beings, . . . for the realization of `nibbana, that is to say, the four Foundations of Mindfulness' (D.ii, 290); and similarly in the case of the Right Efforts, and so on. But in the answer to this question it is taught by virtue and the other two. 7. Here is a brief commentary [on the stanza]. Established well in virtue: standing on virtue. It is only one actually fulfilling virtue who is here said to `stand on virtue'. So the meaning here is this: being established well in virtue by fulfilling virtue. A man a living being. Wise : possessing the kind of understanding that is born of kamma by means of a rebirth-linking with triple root-cause. Develops Consciousness and Understanding : develops both concentration and insight. For it is concentration that is described here under insight. For it is concentration that is described here under the heading of `consciousness', and insight under that of `understanding'. Ardent (atapin) : possessing energy. For it is energy that is called `ardour (atapa)' in the sense of burning up and consuming (atapana-paritapana) defilements. He has that, thus he is ardent. Sagacious: it is understanding that is called `sagacity'; possessing that, is the meaning. This word shows protective understanding. For understanding is mentioned three times in the reply to the question. Herein, the first is native understanding, the second is understanding consisting in insight, while the third is the protective understanding that guides all affairs. He sees fear (bhayam ikkhati) in the round of rebirths, thus he is a bhikkhu. He succeeds in disentangling this tangle : [4] Just as a man standing on the ground and taking up a well-sharpened knife might disentangle a great tangle of bamboos, so too, he-this bhikkhu who possesses the six things, namely, this virtue, and this concentration described under the heading of consciousness, and this threefold understanding, and this ardour--, standing on the ground of virtue and taking up with the hand of protective-understanding well-sharpened on the stone of concentration, might disentangle, cut away and demolish all the tangle of craving that had overgrown his own life's continuity. But it is at the moment of the Path that he is said to be disentangling that tangle : at the moment of fruition he has disentangled the tangle and is worthy of the highest offerings in the word with its deities. That is why the Blessed One said : `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. 8. Herein there is nothing for him to do about the [native] understanding on account of which he is called wise; for that has been established in him simply by the influence of previous kamma. But the words ardent and sagacious mean that by persevering with energy of the kind here described and by acting in full awareness with understanding he should, acting in full awareness with understanding he should, having become well established in virtue, develop the serenity and insight that are described as Concentration and Understanding. This is how the Blessed One shows the path of purification under the headings of virtue, concentration and understanding there. 9. What has been shown so far is the three trainings, the dispensation that is good in three ways, the necessary condition for the threefold clear-vision, etc., the avoidance of the two extremes and the cultivation of the middle way, the means to surmounting the states of loss, etc., the abandoning of defilements in three aspects, prevention of transgression, etc., purification from the three kinds of defilements, and the reason for the states of Stream-entry and so on. How? 10. Here the training of higher virtue is shown by Virtue; the training of higher consciousness, by Concentration' and the training of higher understanding, by Understanding. The dispensation's goodness in the beginning is shown by Virtue. Because of the passage `And what is the beginning of profitable things ? Virtue that is quite purifies'(S.v, 143), `rbril' (Dh. 183), Virtue is the beginning of the dispensation. And that is good because it brings about the special qualities of non-remorse, and so on. Its goodness in the middle is shown by Concentration. [5] Because of the passage beginning `Entering upon the profitable' (Dh. 183), Concentration is the middle of the dispensation. And that is good because it brings about the special qualities of supernormal-power, and so on. Its goodness in the end is shown by Understanding is the end of the dispensation. And that is good because it brings about equipoise with respect to the desired and the undesired. For this is said: `Just as a solid massive rock `Remains unshaken by the wind, `So too, in face of blame and praise `The wise remain immovable' (Dh. 81) Likewise the necessary condition for the triple clear-vision is shown by Virtue. For with the support of perfected virtue one arrives at the three kinds of clear-vision, but nothing besides that. The necessary condition for the six kinds of direct-knowledge is shown by Concentration. For with the support of perfected concentration one arrives at the six kinds of direct-knowledge, but nothing besides that. The necessary condition for the categories of discrimination is shown by Understanding. For with the support of perfected understanding one arrives at the four kinds of discrimination, but not for any other reason. And the avoidance of the extreme called devotion to indulgence of sense-desires is shown by Virtue. The avoidance of the extreme called devotion to mortification of self is shown by Concentration. The cultivation of the middle way is shown by Understanding. 12. Likewise the means for surmounting the states of loss is shown by Virtue; the means for surmounting the element of sense-desires, by Concentration; and the means for surmounting all becoming, by Understanding. And the abandoning of defilements by substitution of opposites is shown by Virtue that by suppression is shown by Concentration; and that by cutting off is shown by Understanding. 13. Likewise prevention of defilements' transgression is shown by Virtue; prevention of obsession [by defilement] is shown by Concentration; prevention of inherent tendencies is shown by Understanding. 14. Likewise the reason for the states of Stream-entry and Once- return is shown by Virtue; that for the state of Non-return, by Concentration; that for Arahantship, by Understanding. For the Stream- enterer is called `Perfected in the `kinds of virtue'; and likewise the Once-returner. But the Non-returner is called `Perfected in concentration'. And the Arahant is called `Perfected in understanding' (See A.i, 233). 15. So thus far these nine and other like triads of special qualities have been shown, that is, the three trainings, the dispensation that is good in three ways, the necessary condition for the threefold clear-vision, the avoidance of the two extremes and the cultivation of the middle way, the means for surmounting the states of loss etc., the abandoning of defilements in three aspects, prevention of transgression, etc., purification from the three kinds of defilements, and the reason for the states of Stream-entry and so on." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" 27060 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi Christine and All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: James - the best way is to see for your self - part of the Visuddhi- > magga is on-line by permission of the Buddhist Publication Society > (all rights reserved). Thank you so much! I was not aware that portions of the Visudhimagga were available online (you seem to be very knowledgeable about Buddhist Internet sources; if you ever create a links page let me know…I bet it would be fantastic!). Anyway, now that I have read the introduction and compared it to Kalupahana's analysis, I really don't see what all the fuss is about. All of the fuss seems to be over this sentence: "However, there can be many paths (magga) leading to that one goal (ekayana)." In my ananlysis, Kalupahana isn't defining `goal' as `ekayana', he is defining the idea behind the whole sentence as `ekayana'. That is, when many minor paths (magga) become the one path that will lead toward the one goal: that is `ekayana'. Just as `ekayana' is used in the Satipatthana Sutta to describe how the eightfold path is the one way that leads to nibbana. Of course Kalupahana could have been a little clearer, but I saw what he was saying right away when I became more familiar with the part of the Visudhimagga he was discussing. Regardless, this isn't even a part of his criticism of Buddhaghosa, he is just laying the ground work here. Metta, James Ps. Yuck! I have never used so many Pali words! ;-)) 27061 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Nina: "When citta experiences cold it cannot experience hardness at the same time." Hi Nina, So the 4 elements are not inseparable. Larry 27062 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:32pm Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga - RobK Dear RobK, Just ignore my previous mention of not being able to access Ch.1 of Vis. As you probably realise, I simply didn't scroll down far enough. http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-1.htm metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 27063 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:39pm Subject: Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Hi Nina, How are we to be mindful of the water element? Larry ps: I've been going through this section quickly because it all goes together but the footnotes are so long it is too much to put on one email. Anyway, we can slow down now. I think I've posted most of the argument. As far as I can tell, you, Sarah, and I are the only ones following this thread. I wonder what happened to Mike? L. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > Cohesion is not tangible object. It can only be experienced through the > mind-door. > You have a lot of texts, thank you. But, for me it is too fast. How can we > absorb it all? I also try to read Vis text Pali apart from the Tiika. I > still have to asnwer your Q about no 37. But if most people like this tempo, > it is OK, but I am just dragging behind. > Nina. > op 16-11-2003 22:46 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > > Larry: The object of the touch sense is primary, not derived matter, > > ie. heat, extension/solidity, pressure (air element), coherence > > (water element). 27064 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Correction Hi Nina, Thanks for this. Very interesting. Can we say a desire can be generated with a jhana citta? Any ideas where we can find out more about "exalted volition"? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > Exalted is usually a transl of jhana. No chance to look at the Pali yet, but > it must be jhanacitta that produces rebirth. Yes, it says mahaggata: that is > jhanacitta. > Nina. > op 16-11-2003 23:05 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > > Here is a correction to note 21. Also I was wondering what is exalted > > volition and limited and exalted kamma? 27065 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:11pm Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi all, Perhaps some of you don't know we have been conducting an in-depth study of the third book of the Visuddhimagga ("On Wisdom") since about June. The thread was originally identified as Vism. XIV 1,2,3 etc. I recently changed this to Vis. XIV. We are beginning with chapter 14 and the paragraphs are numbered. The easiest way to find a discussion on a particular paragraph is to find the link in Jon's index in the files section then scroll through the messages previous to that. It's a bit of a difficult read and takes some application and consideration to follow it. If you do decide to jump in, once we are finished you should have a good understanding of abhidhamma. What more could you want? Larry ps: If you identify your interests we can steer the discussion in that direction. L. 27066 From: connie Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 0:55pm Subject: Re: Myanmar 4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Thank you, Rob. What you say below is helpful. Rob: A rupa gets it's characterisitic at stage 1, when it arises. At this point, the rupa is anittha (undesireable), ittha (moderately desireable) or ati-ittha (extremely desireable). Based on this inherent characteristic, the rupa is handled slightly differently at stage 2 of the process (i.e. "seeing" is done with an akusala vipaka citta or "seeing" is done with a kusala vipaka citta). I believe this to be a relatively minor technical issue. At stage 3 of the process, we react to the object and create new kamma. If the object is anittha and we react with lobha, this is "perversion of perception" (in less technical terms, "you are a wierdo" - masochists fall into this category). Connie: I think Sarah was giving me too much credit (below). I was thinking rupa would be neutral, but it's sinking in now, I think. ***** C: >I was > thinking that 'desirable rupa' meant there was, (sputter), somehow > something about the rupa itself that should make me recognize it as > being a good thing. But the characteristics of whichever rupa we talk > about stay the same, neutral, now one and now another being experienced. .... Sarah: I think we can only speculate about 'good' and 'bad' rupas being experienced, associating 'good' with pleasant of course;-) Whilst the feeling accompanying, say, seeing consciousness is neutral (with exceptions), I don't think we can describe the rupa as 'neutral', but your point is that they remain as they are conditioned , regardless of subsequent cittas and kilesas (defilements) which may arise. .... peace, connie 27067 From: connie Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:41pm Subject: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Sarah: p.s I'm sure many people may be confused by all these comments on Decisive Support Condition and the different kinds we're discussing. If you would like to write a summary of each, perhaps with a little introduction as to where this elephant trunk fits in, or post the details from Nina's book, maybe, in bite-size pieces, it would be helpful for others who'd also like to paddle along. Anyway, you think might bring others to where your comments are coming from would be good. Look, Sarah! A leaky raft of pieces floated out of various places... Nina's Conditions, TA's Paccaya, Amara's comments and Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw's The Patthanuddesa Dipani. Not exactly bite sized, but maybe we can take it apart and put it back into something the elephant can use. peace, connie There are three kinds of upanissaya-paccaya, decisive support-condition or strong dependence-condition; occurs when a phenomenon (nama, rupa or pannatti = paccaya, conditioning) assists another phenomenon (citta = paccayupanna dhamma, conditioned) that does not arise concurrently with it by being a powerful inducement/strong birthplace. "sufficient cause" [Sufficing condition by way of Suttanta may also be mentioned here. It is found in many such passages in the Pitakas as, "through intercourse with virtuous friends", "through association with sinful companions", "by living in the village", "by dwelling in the forest", and so forth. In short, the five cosmic orders (Panca-niyamadhamma) are the stronger sufficing conditions relating to the three worlds--the animate world, the inanimate world, and the world of space, to go on unceasingly through aeons of time.] 1. Arammanupanissaya-paccaya: decisive support/inducement of [desirable] object [arammana = paccaya] - conditions the citta by way of strong dependence; the dominant object acts as a main basis for subjects (arammanika). The citta is so attached that it can't turn away from the object & the same kind of citta arises more easily in the future. Excludes the Not Desirable = painful bodily feeling; dosa-mula-citta, moha-mula-citta (or accompanying cetasikas); etc. Neither nibbana nor the 8 lokuttara citta can be arammanupanissaya-paccaya for lobha; kusala can be powerful inducement for attachment and wrong view (arising with pleasure); attachment can be decisive support condition for further attachment; (concrete) rupas (music) can induce lobha; sense- & heart-bases and sense objects can induce lobha but not kusala citta. It depends on accumulated inclinations whether one has wise or unwise att'n to an object. similar to oject predominance condition 2. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya: decisive support of proximity/contiguity [of cittas] - preceding citta conditions only the immediately succeeding citta of the same type to arise w/out any intervening interval (javana, tadalambana/tadarammana) . The preceding consciousness (mother) acts as a main basis for the arising of its immediately succeeding consciousness (son). good/bad qualities accumulate (Nina talks of guarding senses) similar to proximity condition 3. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya: decisive support of natural condition; naturally known to the wise as a distinct sufficing condition. pakata: done properly, thoroughly; (habitual, firmly accumulated) pakati: naturally, by nature (without assistance of types 1 & 2) good/bad accumulated qualities (from the past become our 'nature, habit, tendency', conditioning cittas of the present) akusala, kusala and vipaka can be pakatupanissaya-paccaya for either kusala or akusala; kamma can be pakatupanissaya-paccaya for vipaka Nina mentions 'preparation of paths'. All past, present and future, internal and external, classes of consciousness together with their concomitants, all material qualities, Nibbána and concepts (pannatti), are natural sufficing conditions, severally related, as the case may be, to all the present classes of consciousness and their concomitants. 27068 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > >Dear Michael, > >I know very little about what Nagajuna said or proved, just what people > >have told me over the years. I am not sure but I think the term svabhava > >you use is from sanskrit and might be roughly the same as sabhava in the > >pali. > >From what you write I wonder if professor Kalupahana and yourself are > >suggesting that the ancient Theravada bhikkhus believed that some > >phenomena, apart from nibbana, were unconditioned? Also if we leave aside > >the semantics of sabhava/svabhava what does the word 'phenomena' mean to > >you or Nagajuna or Kalupahana? > >Robertk > > RobertK, > > That is precisely the argument. Some of the Pali commentaries (in the > Visudhimagga for instance) entertain the idea that phenomena (or dhammas) > are irreductible entities and have an inherent nature, are real in the > ultimate sense (sabhava/svabhava). They are not called unconditioned but > subject to dependent origination, but having a real nature. Those ideas were > criticised initially by Nagarjuna, and later by the Mahayana in general. > Interestingly Nagarjuna used as a basis for his criticism a sutta from the > Pali Canon. ================= Dear Michael, What is the sutta that Nagajuna refers to? And I still wonder what phenomena means to you/Nagajuna/Kalupahana? RobertK 27069 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:24pm Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hello James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Metta, James Ps. Yuck! I have never used so many Pali words! ;-)) KKT: This is your << accumulations >> after one year on the DSG :-)) No offense is intended here. I cannot resist making this comment. Just for fun :-)) Metta, KKT 27070 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael >What is the sutta that Nagajuna refers to? And I still wonder what >phenomena means to you/Nagajuna/Kalupahana? >RobertK It is the Kaccayanagotta Sutta - SN XII.15. I quote: "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one..." Phenomena is the same as dhamma, like for example in sabbe dhamma anicca. Metta Michael 27071 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Ken O, I am not sure where you got the idea that I don't see the difference and importance of both insight and calm and not just insight or just calm, if you do have that idea at all. On the other hand, what you said in the following On my personal experience, mediation is good for calming of mind but is such calming of mind could lead to attachment to so called "calm". The question is, is there a danger that we might not known or aware that we will be attached to calm? and I personnally do not believe in one-pointed concentration meditation, I prefer investigation meditation bc it put the chances of attachment to calm lesser. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26927 give me the impression that you prefered insight to calm, mindfulness to concentration. Also, how is the sutta quote in message #26936 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26936 very clear that both of calm and insight are practise together and not one exclusively another? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 27072 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Larry Ah, now I see where you are coming from in our thread on consciousness as object of consciusness, tec. The way you see it, if the 4 elements are inseparable, it means that if 1 of them is the object of consciousness then they must all be. I don't see that as a necessary assumption. To my understanding, consciousness takes only 1 object (dhamma, or a concept) at a time. Thus, no matter how many dhammas are arising and in what combination, only 1 of them can ever be the object of citta at a given time. So a group of dhammas can be inseparable as far as their arising is concerned, but as far as the precise moment of actually being experienced is concerned their mutual dependency makes no real difference. In the case of for example a group of rupas, each will still be experienced through its own appropriate doorway, and any 'association' with other coarisen rupas is made by the mind-door subsequent to that. That's one reason why it's so important to know just what these things called 'dhammas' are ;-)). Jon --- Larry wrote: > Nina: "When citta experiences cold it cannot > experience hardness at the same time." > > Hi Nina, > > So the 4 elements are not inseparable. > > Larry 27073 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:07pm Subject: Re: Lobha, Tanha, Samudaya and Samyojana Hi Htoo, Where in the discourses did the Buddha teach that Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana are ultimate realities and no other single thing is a reality apart from these four Paramattha Dhamma? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana are ultimate realities. No other single thing is a reality apart from these four Paramattha Dhamma. 27074 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > > > I didn't quote the passage not to overload the message even more. The > passage DK mentions is Vism 328. .... Sorry, I'm still lost. Vism 328 takes me to the Aaruppa-niddesa (immaterial states). I need another clue;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27075 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:12pm Subject: Re: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi KKT, --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Metta, James > Ps. Yuck! I have never used so many Pali words! ;-)) > > > > > KKT: This is your << accumulations >> > after one year on the DSG :-)) > > No offense is intended here. > I cannot resist making this comment. > Just for fun :-)) .... ...And this is your <> too, KKT;-) (btw, were you referring to the 'yuck' or the use of Pali in spite of other intentions?) Good to see you around and look forward to more of your gentle wit. I’m sure you could contribute to the DK thread. How about looking at an elephant’s foot? James, one year already!;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27076 From: Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Jon: "In the case of for example a group of rupas, each will still be experienced through its own appropriate doorway, and any 'association' with other coarisen rupas is made by the mind-door subsequent to that." Hi Jon, This is how I see it too. But this still seems like separation of primary elements. Interestingly, this only applies to the body door. This is the only door that can experience primary elements. All other sense objects are derived matter. One solution would be to say primary elements are not objects of consciousness, hardness and temperature are derived matter, and movement and cohesion are concepts. But abhidhamma doesn't say that. Btw, could you spell out how this applies to consciousness when it is the object of consciousness and how it differs from a cetasika being an object of consciousness? It seems like we are heading toward saying the 6 senses are incapable of experiencing a complex reality (ie. 2 of anything) directly. Concept is necessary to understand things as they are. Is that why they call it dukkha? Larry 27077 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Pali Glossary update Hi Friends, For those of you who would like to check the meanings of most the Pali words used on DSG or to build up your vocabulary of some of the key terms, there is a simple Pali glossary in the Files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ The credit for this goes to Kom who based it on a glossary used in Nina's books. Recently Connie has also worked to improve it, by adding the correct (or preferred) "Paali" spelling (Velthius scheme) in brackets after the simplified 'Pali' spelling we often use. The Velthius scheme spelling reflects the diacritical marks we're unable to use easily on a standard keyboard. I think that it may be helpful for many people to print this glossary out to have handy when reading posts. Many thanks to Kom and Connie. Metta, Sarah ======== 27078 From: Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Hi Nina, Regarding mindfulness of the water element, I looked through Visuddhimagga, MN 28, and the Satipatthana Comy. and my conclusion is that mindfulness of the elements is a conceptual analysis. This would mean there would be no problem with mindfulness of the water element even though it can't be sensed. Below is a snip from the Satipatthana Comy. Larry "A bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the mode of materiality, THINKING thus: 'There are, in this body, the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m17220.html 27079 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:59pm Subject: In search of .....Sinhala commentaries Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Actually, I am not in agreement with anything. I’ll leave the other comments until I find more strength;-) ..... S: > > [By the way, James, I was looking at a Wheel publication today that > you > > might find of interest: Buddhist Commentarial Literature by l.R. > > Goonesekere. He gives evidence to suggest that the ancient Sinhala > > commentaries referred to by Buddhaghosa and others were probably > available > > until the thirteenth century and used by later authors until this > time. .... > James: Yes, this is of interest to me. However, this quote doesn't > support your introductory summary of the article. What authors used > the original commentaries, in Sinhala, after Buddhaghosa? How is this > shown? ..... The author says: “The references in the Mahavamsa to the recitation of the canon together with the commentaries would not prove the existence of the Sinhala commentaries at these [later] periods, as a.t.thakathaa could equally refer to the Pali commentaries. However, quotations from the Sinhala a.t.thakathaa in the works of later authors would prove their existence at the time these books wer written, and they would appear to have been available till about the thirteenth century.” She then gives a footnote with a very long list of such works - far too long for me to type out, so here’s just a small part: “The Dhampiyaa-a.tuvaagaa.tapadaya, a work dated in the tenth century A.C. contains quotations from these commentaries in the original Sinhalese. In the Sahassavatthuppakara.na, a work asigned to a period before the eleventh century A.C. the author says in the introduction that he is following the method of the Siihala.t.thakathaa....” There are about another dozen or so such books, written up to the 13th century, mentioned with quotations and references to the Sinhalese commentaries. I'll them all if you like when I have time. James, no one knows for sure when or how these commentaries disappeared. I’m merely reporting back what I’ve just read here. Incidentally, it’s Wheel no 113/114. My copy is 30yrs old, so I’ve no idea if it’s still in print etc. The article was originally for the ‘Encyclopaedia of Buddhism around 1960 by Mrs Goonesekere, a Pali scholar. I note in the introduction that she died soon after in her 30s. Metta, Sarah ======= 27080 From: shakti Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali Glossary update Dear Friends, Thank you so much for the updated pali glossary. What a gift! Special thanks to Kom and Connie for all the work. I have already printed out a copy and will use it when traveling instead of carrying Nyanatiloka's Buddhist dictionary. With metta, Shakti Sarah wrote: Hi Friends, For those of you who would like to check the meanings of most the Pali words used on DSG or to build up your vocabulary of some of the key terms, there is a simple Pali glossary in the Files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ The credit for this goes to Kom who based it on a glossary used in Nina's books. Recently Connie has also worked to improve it, by adding the correct (or preferred) "Paali" spelling (Velthius scheme) in brackets after the simplified 'Pali' spelling we often use. The Velthius scheme spelling reflects the diacritical marks we're unable to use easily on a standard keyboard. I think that it may be helpful for many people to print this glossary out to have handy when reading posts. Many thanks to Kom and Connie. Metta, Sarah ======== 27081 From: Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:21pm Subject: escribe Sarah, I noticed the search function on escribe doesn't work for words like "way 76" or "vism. xiv". Should I be titling the visuddhimagga thread in a different way? Larry 27082 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] escribe Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah, > > I noticed the search function on escribe doesn't work for words like > "way 76" or "vism. xiv". Should I be titling the visuddhimagga thread in > a different waay? ..... Hmmm......that Q’s too difficult for me. I’m rather used to working along with escribe however. Here are a couple of clues: 1. If you have the text, find the most infrequently used DSG word you can in the on-line passage you want to retrieve. For example, if I wanted to find the first extract you posted, I’d probably choose ‘stanza’. You’ll get a number of entries, but just scroll down to the first LBIDD one that looks likely. [just checked and that was easy -2 secs]. More reliable and just as quick [timed the same] is to click on DSG homepage [saved at top of the screen], click on files, Jon’s Vism links to get this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/23711?expand=1 (Escribe does occasionally miss messages too). The other useful thing you can do with escribe is to click on any message by LBIDD and then click on ‘other messages by this author’ to trace back Vism entries. As you send a lot of messages, it might have limited value and involve quite a lot of scrolling. I think you should carry on as you are. With Jon’s back-up file, it’s really very easy for anyone to track down the entries, even if he gets a bit behind at times as well;-) You’re doing a great job on the extracts, esp. with the notes as well. Just because others don’t contribute, doesn’t mean they’re not taking partial or full note. I think it’s very helpful and the Qs you raise are excellent. I’d rather just let you and Nina sort out the pace. Metta, Sarah http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ ======= 27083 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / transference of merit. Hi Thomas, I appreciate your further comments. --- nordwest wrote: > Thanks Sarah, glad I checked this the posting, as it was adressed to > Nina,. :) .... We have our ways of trying to get you to check all posts;-) ... > It is just a short answer-problem, when I say "We are already a buddha" > I mean, that we don't need to wait for anything, and could > (theoretically and practically) become a buddha right now. ..... I agree with the sentiment about not needing to wait, but I don’t agree that we could become ‘a buddha’ right now. This is not according to what The Buddha taught. Those who listened carefully and had the right conditions could develop insight and become enlightened. This doesn’t mean that even his key disciples became ‘a buddha’. In the tipitaka, the use of ‘Buddha’ is used very precisely to refer to a) the Sammaa-Sambuddha or Universal Buddha: “Now, someone, in things never heard before, understands by himself the truth, and he therein attains omniscience, and gains mastery in the powers. Such a one is called a Universal Buddha, or Enlightened One” (Pug 29). b) Pacceka-Buddha or Independently Enlightened One: In this case, there is not the ability to proclaim the Dhamma to others and apparently they do not arise while the teachings of a Samma-Sambuddha are known. There are many conditions for both kind of Buddha including the need to make an aspiration before a live Samma-Sambuddha. This post gives the conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18577 You may like to look at others under ‘Bodhisatta’ in U.P.: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... >Every > sentient being could do so. Of course we can't because we struggle with > the fact that our mind is not pure, so we don't know what is real and > what illusion. .... I fully agree with you about the importance of determining ‘what is real and what illusion’. What is real as we write to each other now in your view, Thomas? .... >When I, or anyone as many masters use this phrase too, > says "to become a buddha", then it is to be understood in the very same > way like mentioned above. We have the buddha-nature, but there is still > something "to do" to clear the defiled mind so it will become the Pure > Mind again. .... I don’t think there is any mention of us having the ‘buddha-nature’ in the Tipitaka and Pali commentaries, Thomas. Also, the idea of clearing the defiled mind to find the [hidden] pure mind is contradictory to what we read and understand about impermanence and conditioned changing realities. You might like to look at the comments I made on ‘present moment’ in my post to Michael on the Buddhaghosa thread yesterday. When the consciousness is defiled or unwholesome, there is no ‘pure mind’ hidden at all. .... > > The most important about "Transfer of merit" is not, where the merit > goes, but the motivation behind it. It is the motivation to benefit not > oneself but other beings with one's own merits. ... Agreed. .... > Rituals are very important, just wanna mention this. They help us to > train mindfulness, e.g. when lightening incense we concentrate only on > this, so it is training of mindfulness. .... I think we have a different understanding of mindfulness too;-) What you say is how I understand mindfulness as we might use it conventionally. It’s not how I understand samma-sati or right mindfulness which has to be a wholesome state accompanying a moment of ‘pure mind’ consciousness;-) I hope we can continue this discussion. I appreciate that it may be difficult for people who are used to the language and teachings of other traditions when they come here and have every sentenced pulled apart. Metta, Sarah ====== 27084 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:13am Subject: Anapanasati, II a Anapanasati Part II a: We should go back to the first tetrad: (I) Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows ³I breathe out long². (II) Breathing in short, he knows ³I breathe in short²; or breathing out short, he knows ³I breathe out short². (III) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body². (IV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in tranquillizing the bodily activity²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out tranquillizing the bodily activity², at that time, monks, the monk is faring along contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious (of it), mindful (of it) having put away the covetousness and dejection in the world. I say, monks, that of bodies, this is (a certain) one, that is to say breathing-in and breathing-out. That is why, on that occasion, monks, the monk is faring along contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious (of it), mindful (of it) having put away the covetousness and dejection in the world. In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read Vis. 223 < On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and out-breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that just as, when a blacksmith¹s bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing to the bag and to the man¹s appropriate effort, so too, in-breaths and out-breaths are due to the body and the mind. Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial... Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...> The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read: **** Nina. 27085 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): from Sarah Dear Sarah. enjoying very much your post on Buddhaghosa. I also have the booklet of Goonesekere but had forgotten about it. Nina. op 17-11-2003 13:10 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: >> > [By the way, James, I was looking at a Wheel publication today that you > might find of interest: Buddhist Commentarial Literature by l.R. > Goonesekere. He gives evidence to suggest that the ancient Sinhala > commentaries referred to by Buddhaghosa and others were probably available > until the thirteenth century and used by later authors until this time. 27086 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi James, Let’s look at the elephant’s trunk again. I’m glad to see your contributions: --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Actually, I am not in agreement with anything. At the > beginning of his chapter, Kalupahana is analyzing how Buddhaghosa > explains the title of his treatse "The Path of Purification" > (Visudhimagga). Kalupahana states that Buddhaghosa explains that > there is one goal but apparently several paths. .... Ok, we’ve all read the same material (thanks to Christine’s help). You clarify DK’s comments in another post as meaning: J: >That is, when many minor paths (magga) become the one path that will lead toward the one goal: that is `ekayana'.> ..... Can you show me exactly where in the extract posted that Buddhaghosa suggests there are ‘several paths’ or ‘many minor paths (magga) [which] become the one path. What I read here and throughout the text (as I showed in the rejected quotes) is a clear description that there is one Path taught in different ways and showing different aspects: Vism, ch 1: >5. Herein, purification should be understood as nibbana, which being devoid of all stains, is utterly pure. The Path of Purification is the path to that purification; it is the means of approach that is called the path. The meaning is, I shall expound that path of purification. 6. In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone, <...> And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is said: <..> And in some instances by deeds (kamma), etc., <...> And in some instances by the Foundations of Mindfulness, etc., according as it is said: `Bhikkhus, this path is the only `way for the purification of beings, . . . for the realization of `nibbana, that is to say, the four Foundations of Mindfulness' (D.ii, 290); and similarly in the case of the Right Efforts, and so on. But in the answer to this question it is taught by virtue and the other two.> ***** In other words, one path of purification taught or highlighted in different ways. All those who have become enlightened have to follow the same route of satipatthana. Wisdom (panna) has to realize the same insights in the same order. There is no other way. Mindfulness, effort, concentration and so on are the mental factors which accompany wisdom at each moment of satipatthana. They are not separate paths or minor paths. ..... J: > Anyway, as Michael points out, this is a minor point of contention. > The main thrust of Kalupahana's argument is that Buddhaghosa then > takes the liberty of redefining these six sub-paths as three: > morality, concentration and insight. .... Leaving aside the ‘sub-paths’, is it true that these categories were invented by Buddhaghosa? A couple of days ago, I wrote: S: >Back to the Vism text and a little later, the ONE path is stressed again(ch XV1, 95): “Also THE path is of ONE kind [my caps]as what should be developed. It is of two kinds classed according to serenity and insight, or classed according to seeing and developing. It is three kinds classed according to the three aggregates; for the [path], being selective, is included by the three aggregates, which are comprehensive, as a city is by a kingdom.” This is followed by a passage in M i,301 which elaborates on why it is said the Noble Eightfold Path is included by the three aggregates of virtue, concentration and wisdom.< To quote further from the Culavedella Sutta, MN 44 on the Noble Eightfold Path: “Lady, are the three aggregates included by the Noble Eightfold Path, or is the Noble Eightfold Path included by the three aggregates?* “The three aggregates are not included by the Noble eightfold Path, friend Visakha, but the Noble Eightfold Path is included by the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, and right livelihood - these states are included in the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration - these states are included in the aggregate of concentration. Right view and right intention - these states are included in the aggregate of wisdom.” *khandha here refers to the three divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path, ie virtue (siila), concentration (samaadhi), and wisdom (pa~n~naa). Metta, Sarah ======= 27087 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Victor, > The question is, is there a danger that we might not known or aware > that we will be attached to calm? k: with regard to this question, there is always a danger for attachment to calm just that now I do not have any Buddhist refernce now. I will in future if read the suttas again will point it out to you. This type of attachment is very subtle, very difficult to detect. One gross example i think of now is that, if one happens to feel like going into again and again to crave for that type of experience that type of elation and calmness, subtle attachment of calm has been developed. > Also, how is the sutta quote in message #26936 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26936 > very clear that both of calm and insight are practise together and > not one exclusively another? > k: Different people looking a certain sutta quote will derive different meanings due to their past kamma and present understanding. I interpret that it entails both concentration and insight to go into higher jhanas and not exclusive of one another. Hence both have to be practise together and not exclusively. How to practise together, it is describe in the concentration sutta. kind regards Ken O 27088 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): from Sarah Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah. > enjoying very much your post on Buddhaghosa. I also have the booklet of > Goonesekere but had forgotten about it. .... I had long forgotten it too. As usual, I was looking for quite another Wheel, when I came across it like a hidden treasure. Sometimes I find old wheels or passages in texts which I've obviously read before, but quite forgotten. I was reflecting again about how any academic or conceptual knowledge will just get forgotten in this life or at the end of life. Only true wisdom will be accumulated and developed. I also came across the Wheel 'Buddhism in Myanmar, A short history'wheel 399/401 in my search, which I plan to read at the weekend. It also says in the intro to Goonasekere's wheel that it was reprinted as Dhamma-dana by her husband and relations. We have to be grateful for so many acts of dhamma-dana that we're able to read the books we do. Metta, Sarah ====== 27089 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] escribe Larry I think the problem is the space between the 2 words -- I suspect that only strings without a space can be searched. In the subject heading, try replacing the space with a stop or underscore. That way you will be able to search by subject heading (that's why I chose 'Vism.EngPali.XIV' as the call sign for the English-Pali posts). The same applies to searches here on Yahoo Groups. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah, > > I noticed the search function on escribe doesn't work for words > like > "way 76" or "vism. xiv". Should I be titling the visuddhimagga > thread in > a different way? > > Larry 27090 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:48pm Subject: Deep Friends: Deep is Dependent Origination: Deep is Ignorance as not seeing nor understanding the 4 Noble Truths. Deep is Construction as creating & accumulating future by Intention only. Deep is Consciousness as empty of Self & absent of Agent yet rebirth linking. Deep is Name&Form as simultaneously arising twins, both separable & not. Deep is 6 Senses as the doors, field of world & only objective source. Deep is Contact as encounter, meeting, touchdown & all imprinting. Deep is Feeling as labeling the objects as pleasant, painful or neutral. Deep is Craving as the insatiable seeker, dragging along urge & pain. Deep is Clinging as taking up, grasping, attaching, unable to relinquish. Deep is Becoming as effecting future destinations & modes of being. Deep is Birth as conception, generation, manifestation & being born. Deep is Ageing, Decay & Death as inevitable change & falling away. Verily, Deep as an ocean abyss is this Dependent Origination.... Not comprehending this make us come back here again & again! Source: SumangalaVilasini [453]. Buddhaghosa's commentary to Mahanidana Sutta. Digha Nikaya 15. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 27091 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:04am Subject: 1st Jhana Entry A friend asked: How is 1st Jhana attained ??? First good morality have to be observed otherwise will recurrent regrets stir up & distract the mind... Calm of Body & Mind have to be established by breathing. Focus fixed on the air-touch inside nose. Then the entry into 1st Jhana have these 10 factors: 1: Absence of Sensual Urge 2: Absence of Ill Will 3: Absence of Laziness & Lethargy 4: Absence of Restlessness & Regrets 5: Absence of Sceptical Doubt 6: Presence of Directed Thinking 7: Presence of Sustained Thinking 8: Presence of Pleasure 9: Presence of Happiness 10: Presence of Unified Focus Can strongly recommend the Path of Purification for details: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771110 With Upekkha http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 27092 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:25am Subject: Bliss & Beauty ! Friends: The 4 Divine Couplings: _____________ When one joins release of mind by Universal Goodwill with Awareness with Curiosity with Enthusiasm with Rapture with Tranquility with Concentration with Indifference Then the excellent state of exquisite Bliss & Beauty emerges. _____________ When one joins release of mind by Universal Sympathy with Awareness with Curiosity with Enthusiasm with Rapture with Tranquility with Concentration with Indifference Then the excellent formless state of Infinite Space emerges. _____________ When one joins release of mind by Universal Mutual Joy with Awareness with Curiosity with Enthusiasm with Rapture with Tranquility with Concentration with Indifference Then the excellent formless state of Infinite Consciousness emerges. _____________ When one joins release of mind by Universal Equanimity with Awareness with Curiosity with Enthusiasm with Rapture with Tranquility with Concentration with Indifference Then the excellent formless state of Nothingness emerges. ---oo0oo--- Source: Sariputta Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] bhikkhu_samahita@y... Friendship is truly GREATEST ! For Gladdening of Good People ! Goodwill Motivates all Noble Life ! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ Easy subscription by sending an email to: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 27093 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Thanks Michael, I think I understand the points Kalupahana is trying to make. Is it right that he objects to the word 'sabhava' because this means 'essence'? But he doesn't object to such words as dhamma (or dhatu, element, or ayatana, sense field, or khandha, aggregate,?) Does he object to words such as lakkhana, characteristic? I would like to stress that although sabhava means essence, whne the comemntaries talk about sabhava dhammas they go to lengths to stress that sabhava in such cases never means something unconditioned (except for nibbana). So if we look at for example feeling. This is sabhava dhamma (as against asabhava such as 'soul' which is imaginary). Feeling is impermanent, dukkha and anatta. There are various kinds of feeling when we consider by way of door. So the Visuddhimagga in the section on Paticcasamuppada explains by way of the eye-door: 'beginning with eye-contact is a condition in eight ways as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment association, presence and non- disappaearence conditions, for the five kinds of feelings that have respectively eye sensitivity etc. as their respective basis...' And in the Phena Sutta (A Lump of Foam) which Sarah quoted some time back the commentary by Buddhaghosa says about feeling: ( translated by B.Bodhi:) ***** note 190: "Spk: a bubble (bubbu.la) is feeble and cannot be grasped, for it breaks up as soon as it is seized; so too feeling is feeble and cannot be grasped as permanent and stable. As a bubble arises and ceases in a drop of water and does not last long, so too with feeling: 100,000 `ko.tis' of feelings arise and cease in the time of a fingersnap (one ko.ti = 10 million). As a bubble arises in dependence on conditions, so feeling arises in dependence on a sense base, an object, the defilements, and contact." I include this just to show how much stress is laid on conditionality in the commentaries. There is never any hint that dhammas could exist independent of conditions. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > >What is the sutta that Nagajuna refers to? And I still wonder what > >phenomena means to you/Nagajuna/Kalupahana? > >RobertK > > It is the Kaccayanagotta Sutta - SN XII.15. I quote: > > "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a > polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the > origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, > 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one > sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, > 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one..." > > Phenomena is the same as dhamma, like for example in sabbe dhamma anicca. > > Metta > Michael > 27094 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues I Dear Nina Thank you for this information, and looking forward to your new work on latent tendencies. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear all, Alan put the Dhamma Issues I which I translated from Thai on his web under E Books: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I am starting now my translation of no II on the Latent tendencies, it is a whole book on this subject. Nina. 27095 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hi Michael & All, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Thanks Michael, > I think I understand the points Kalupahana is trying to make. > Is it right that he objects to the word 'sabhava' because this > means 'essence'? <...> M: > > It is the Kaccayanagotta Sutta - SN XII.15. I quote: .... In the following post I quoted a few passages from B.Bodhi's very extensive commentary note translations to this sutta and added a few notes which you're welcome to follow up on or disagree with: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11205.html You might also find it useful to look at some of the posts under 'sabhava' in UP. There have been long-running discussions on this topic here;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Apologies if this seems like an overload. Metta, Sarah ====== 27096 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:25am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 26, 27 [Regarding the 4 discriminations: meaning, law, language, perspicuity] 26. "Knowledge about kinds of knowledge" (par.21): when a man is reviewing and makes any of the foregoing kinds of knowledge the object [of his knowledge], then any knowledge in him that has knowledge as its object is "discrimination of perspicuity", and so is any knowledge about these aforesaid kinds of knowledge, which is concerned with details of their individual domains, functions, and so on. 26. ~naa.nesu ~naa.nanti sabbattha ~naa.namaaramma.na.m katvaa paccavekkhantassa~naa.naaramma.na.m ~naa.na.m, yathaavuttesu vaa tesu ~naa.nesu sagocarakiccaadivasena vitthaarato ~naa.na.m pa.tibhaanapa.tisambhidaati attho. 27. And these four kinds of discrimination can be placed in two categories: the plane of the trainer and the plane of the non-trainer. Herein, those of the chief disciples and great disciples come into the category of the non-trainer's plane. Those of the Elder Aananda, the householder Citta, the layman Dhammika, the householder Upaali, the laywoman Khujjuttaraa, etc., come into the category of the trainer's plane. 27. catassopi cetaa pa.tisambhidaa dviisu .thaanesu pabheda.m gacchanti sekkhabhuumiya~nca asekkhabhuumiya~nca. tattha aggasaavakaana.m mahaasaavakaana~nca asekkhabhuumiya.m pabhedagataa. aanandatthera cittagahapati dhammikaupaasaka upaaligahapati khujjuttaraaupaasikaadiina.m sekkhabhuumiya.m. 27097 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Larry A reply to part of your post. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "In the case of for example a group of rupas, each will still > be experienced through its own appropriate doorway, and any > 'association' > with other coarisen rupas is made by the mind-door subsequent to > that." > > Hi Jon, > > This is how I see it too. But this still seems like separation of > primary elements. When something that has coarisen with something else is experienced individually, that does not mean there is any separation of those 2 things in terms of their co-dependence at that moment. Different sets of conditioning factors. It's like this: While A and B arise in this world dependent on each other, only one or the other can ever be the object of consciousness at a given moment The factors relevant to the arising of A and B, and the factors relevant to their being the object of consciousness, are quite different. > It seems like we are heading toward saying the 6 senses are > incapable of > experiencing a complex reality (ie. 2 of anything) directly. > Concept is > necessary to understand things as they are. Consciousness only ever takes a single object, and yes, concepts are necessary for funtioning in the world. > Is that why they call it dukkha? Sorry, you've lost me. Is what why they call what dukkha? Jon 27098 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Jon (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/17/03 11:21:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > So a group of dhammas can be inseparable as far as their arising is > concerned, but as far as the precise moment of actually being > experienced is concerned their mutual dependency makes no real > difference ============================== The fundamental question that arises for me is: "Exactly *where* does the alleged group of dhammas (only one of which is experienced) arise?". For example, when one is experiencing the coldness of a "metal rod", exactly *where* is the hardness? For that matter, other than as an object of consciousness *where* is the coldness? Another closely related question is: "By what means is one aware that there is an entire group of rupas arising (somewhere), when only one rupa is experienced?" I could come up with several theories about this. One is that the rupas of a group of rupas have dependency relations holding among them, that they all eventually appear as objects of consciousness, but one at a time in a sequence determined by those dependencies (or by other conditions in the mindstream). Another theory is that all these rupas do appear in the "mindstream" at the same time, but all but one of them only subliminally. Another is that all but one rupa in the group are missing some sort of "actualization condition", though all other conditions for their arising in consciousness have occurred, but the lack of that one condition prevents them from actually arising as experiences, and remaining only as unrealized potentialities. (For each of these "explanations", the only means of knowing about the "group" seems to be inference.) Are any of these theories, or some unmentioned alternative, given as explanation in the Abhidhamma? Actually, if I were to have a choice in the matter, which I do not, the second theory involving subliminal arising has the most appeal to me. That theory seems to more easily allow for how one could come to know about the unobserved rupas of the group: Having arisen, albeit subliminally, they would have left traces in the mindstream that could be examined (by a suitable trained mind) after the fact. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27099 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael >Sorry, I'm still lost. Vism 328 takes me to the Aaruppa-niddesa >(immaterial states). I need another clue;-) Yeah, I know. The book does not give any information about what the numbers mean. One would have to ask DK. But anyway there is a reference for his quote. Metta Michael 27100 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:37am Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi KKT, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Hello James, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > Metta, James > Ps. Yuck! I have never used so many Pali words! ;-)) > > KKT: This is your << accumulations >> > after one year on the DSG :-)) > > No offense is intended here. > I cannot resist making this comment. > Just for fun :-)) > > > Metta, > > > KKT No offense taken. Perhaps it is a wake-up call? ;-) I was wondering when you would pop up again. Glad my silly comment inspired an appearance. Metta, James 27101 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:41am Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi KKT, > James, one year already!;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Hi Sarah, Yea, it's amazing that I have lasted that long and haven't been completely banned (at least not yet ;-). Metta, James 27102 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hello Sarah, Thomas and all, Sarah: I don’t think there is any mention of us having the ‘buddha-nature’ in the Tipitaka and Pali commentaries, Thomas. Also, the idea of clearing the defiled mind to find the [hidden] pure mind is contradictory to what we read and understand about impermanence and conditioned changing realities. Michael The Pabhassara Sutta ( AN I.49-52) can probably shed some light on this discussion. In this sutta we read: "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements." "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." The first statement seems to imply that the mind is naturally pure while the second seems to imply that the mind is naturally defiled. The mind has to be pure in order to be defiled and by the same token it has to be defiled in order to be purified. If the mind were totally pure (or in other words already had a “Buddha-nature”) it would not have to be purified and if it were totally defiled it would not have to be defiled again. So, how to solve this puzzle? Metta Michael 27103 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / transference of merit. Hello Sarah, Sarah: It’s not how I understand samma-sati or right mindfulness which has to be a wholesome state accompanying a moment of ‘pure mind’ consciousness;-) Michael: This needs some additional clarification. First mindfulness is a beautiful cetasika and therefore only arises in wholesome cittas. In unwholesome cittas there is no possibility of mindfulness being present. Second if consciousness is ‘pure’ then the task has been done, the burden laid down, and there will be no more rebirths, because a purified mind is the mind of an arahant. I cannot comprehend a mind that has alternating moments of purity and moments of impurity. I can understand a mind which has moments of kusala/akusala or wholesome/unwholesome but this is quite different from pure/impure. Metta Michael 27104 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati, II a Hello Nina, Nina: Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows ³I breathe out long.² He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body². Michael: Nina, I am very interested in this first tetrad of the sutta because it connects with my meditation practice. Is it possible to expand a little bit on the meaning of ‘knows’ and ‘trains’. I think those are clear pointers for someone who is involved in the practice of meditation. Metta Michae 27105 From: shakti Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 (Jon) Jon, I'm confused about something that you said. I thought that I heard once, that citta could never take concepts as an object. ??? With metta, shakti Jonothan Abbott wrote: ---snip --- I don't see that as a necessary assumption. To my understanding, consciousness takes only 1 object (dhamma, or a concept) at a time. Thus, no matter how many dhammas are arising and in what combination, only 1 of them can ever be the object of citta at a given time. So a group of dhammas can be inseparable as far as their arising is concerned, but as far as the precise moment of actually being experienced is concerned their mutual dependency makes no real difference. In the case of for example a group of rupas, each will still be experienced through its own appropriate doorway, and any 'association' with other coarisen rupas is made by the mind-door subsequent to that. That's one reason why it's so important to know just what these things called 'dhammas' are ;-)). Jon --- Larry wrote: > Nina: "When citta experiences cold it cannot > experience hardness at the same time." > > Hi Nina, > > So the 4 elements are not inseparable. > > Larry 27106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 mahaggata citta. Hi Larry, op 17-11-2003 22:46 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for this. Very interesting. Can we say a desire can be > generated with a jhana citta? N: Never. Jhanacitta is citta without attachment, it is kusala citta of a high degree. L:Any ideas where we can find out more > about "exalted volition"? N: all over the Tipitaka, also in the suttas: translated as the first meditation, etc. Or as musing. Volition with mundane jhanacitta is kusala kamma of a high degree. We read in the Vis. about the senses: created by kamma sourcing from desire to see, etc. It was because of conditions that we are born here where there are sense impressions. In the past we had desire to experience sense objects, and we have now. We desire to see, hear and experience all the sense impressions. Those who cultivate jhana see the disadvantages of sense impressions, they want to be away from them. Rupajhanacitta (rupavacara kusala citta) that arises shortly before dying produces birth in rupabrahma planes where there are seeing, hearing but not the other sense impressions. The beings of those planes are more refined. In the arupa brahmaplanes there is no rupa, only nama, thus no sense impressions at all. Nina. 27107 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi Larry, op 17-11-2003 22:27 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "When citta experiences cold it cannot > experience hardness at the same time." > So the 4 elements are not inseparable. N: They are inseparable, they arise and fall away in a group consisting of at least eight rupas. Visible object is one of those eight, but it does not appear to the citta all the time. Only when there are specific conditions. Hardness does not appear all the time, cold may appear. We can verify even on the level of thinking, that we cannot think of hardness and cold at the same time. Hardness.. cold..., try it out. When seeing sees visible object, there cannot be at the same time the experience of hardness through the bodysense. Only one citta experiencing one object through one doorway. But, this does not mean that visible object is floating by itself in the air, it needs earth, solidity, as a foundation, and it needs the other three elements. Nina. P.S. By the way, some people do follow this thread even though they are silent. Someone told me expressively that he reads all mails. And so there are others who participate silently. Some people lack time to react much, others find it a very difficult subject, and it is difficult. Nina. 27108 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45, water. Hi Larry, The footnotes are useful and make my transl work lighter, because they are from the Tiika. op 17-11-2003 22:39 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > How are we to be mindful of the water element? N: We cannot try to be mindful of it. Whatever appears through one of the six doors is the object of sati. We cannot select anything. Water, cohesion, is a subtle rupa. Vis. XIV, 73:< What is subtle is far because it is difficult to penetrate... >The other three Great Elements are gross rupas, because of impinging. They are near, because easy to penetrate, we read in the same para. Nina. 27109 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:18am Subject: FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 24 B Commentary 24 B Relevant sutta passage: metta.m raahulaa bhaavana.m bhaavehi. develop loving kindness, Rahula. Co text: 120. metta.m raahulaati kasmaa aarabhi? taadibhaavassa kaara.nadassanattha.m. As to the phrase, mettaa raahulaa, (develop loving kindness, Rahula) why did he begin (with these words)? In order to explain the condition for ³such nature² (of the arahat). he.t.thaa hi taadibhaavalakkha.na.m dassita.m, Before, the characteristic of ³such nature² was explained, na ca sakkaa aha.m taadii homiiti akaara.naa bhavitu.m, but it is not possible to develop ³such nature² when there are no conditions for being so; napi ``aha.m uccaakulappasuto bahussuto laabhii, nor when one thinks, ³I am belonging to a noble family, I have heard much and I am wealthy, ma.m raajaraajamahaamattaadayo bhajanti, aha.m taadii homii''ti the king , his ministers and so on associate with me², imehi kaara.nehi koci taadii naama hoti, someone cannot be called ³of such nature² because of these reasons. mettaadibhaavanaaya pana hotiiti However, one can be ³of such nature² by the development of loving-kindness and so on. taadibhaavassa kaara.nadassanattha.m ima.m desana.m aarabhi. Therefore, the Buddha began this teaching (of mettå) in order to explain the condition for being of ³such nature². English: As to the phrase, mettaa raahulaa, (develop loving kindness, Rahula) why did he begin (with these words)? In order to explain the condition for ³I am of such nature² (of the arahat). Before, the characteristic of ³such nature² was explained, but it is not possible to develop ³such nature² when there are no conditions for being so; nor when one thinks, ³I am belonging to a noble family, I have heard much and I am wealthy,the king , his ministers and so on associate with me², someone cannot be called ³of such nature² because of these reasons. However, one can be ³of such nature² by the development of loving-kindness and so on. Therefore, the Buddha began this teaching (of mettå) in order to explain the condition for being of ³such nature². Nina. 27110 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. mindfulness of cohesion Hi Larry, op 18-11-2003 05:48 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Regarding mindfulness of the water element, I looked through > Visuddhimagga, MN 28, and the Satipatthana Comy. and my conclusion is > that mindfulness of the elements is a conceptual analysis. This would > mean there would be no problem with mindfulness of the water element > even though it can't be sensed. Below is a snip from the Satipatthana > Comy. > "A bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or > disposed, by way of the mode of materiality, THINKING thus: 'There are, > in this body, the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of > caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' N: He reflects on the elements and is reminded to be directly aware of whatever reality appears. Satipatthana is not thinking. In the Satipatthanasutta the Buddha arranged the objects of mindfulness in many different ways to help different people to be aware of the presently arisen reality. What appeals to one person may not appeal to another one. Does this make sense to you? Nina. 27111 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Sarah, James and al, Sarah: What I read here and throughout the text (as I showed in the rejected quotes) is a clear description that there is one Path taught in different ways and showing different aspects: Michael: I think the only place in the Canon which has a clear reference to one path is the Satippathana Sutta - MN 10 & DN22. On the other hand it is generally accepted that the Noble Eightfold Path, with its subdivision into sila, samadhi and pañña, should be regarded as the main highway or main path in the teachings of the Canon. But upon reading the many suttas that describe the advice given by the Buddha, and his disciples, in various different situations, one comes across a bewildering array of options in relation to that main highway. Those options can be regarded as ramifications of that main path but they in themselves can also be called paths of practice, why not? For the practitioner who is devoted to developing the first jhana, and insight based on that jhana, that is his path of practice, while for the practitioner who has developed up to the fourth jhana and wants to develop supra-normal powers and then insight, that is his path of practice. Those are not the same path with just ‘different ways and different aspects’. They are clearly two separate paths. If you have a road which goes in the north/south direction and passes by a nice farm, and another road which goes on the east/west direction and passes by the same nice farm, both are not the same road just because they share the same nice farm. They have something in common but they are not the same road. And they may at the end reach the same destination but through different routes. In some instances we see references to only one or all of the four material jhanas (which is the case with the Satippathana) while in others, in addition to the former, the immaterial jhanas are also included. The three true knowledge are not even mentioned in the Satippathana Suttas while in quite a number of other suttas they appear prominently. Not to talk about the never ending disputes between the ‘wet’ and ‘dry’ practitioners. This is just to refer to a few options, and although I could expand the examples, those instances mentioned should suffice, at least for now. Although one likes to refer to the Buddhist practice as consisting of only one path, there are indeed a myriad of optional paths which can be found in the suttas, and it would not be befitting to a supreme physician to be prescribing all the same medicine to all his patients irrespective of their ailments. Metta Michael 27112 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello Sarah, Sarah: It is the Kaccayanagotta Sutta - SN XII.15. I quote: .... In the following post I quoted a few passages from B.Bodhi's very extensive commentary note translations to this sutta and added a few notes which you're welcome to follow up on or disagree with: Michael: Thanks for your post. My contention is that the view that dhammas, as defined in the Abhidhamma & Visudhimagga, are real and ultimate, also is an eternalistic view. It attributes existence to something which is only another convention. The dhammas in the Abhidhamma are valid from a phenomenological point of view but have no real nature. Metta Michael 27113 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:22am Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > Let's look at the elephant's trunk again. I'm glad to see your > contributions: Hi Sarah, Okay, first, it has to be understood that we are discussing `The Path of Purification' taught by Buddhaghosa, not the Noble Eightfold Path taught by Lord Buddha. I believe that they are different in very essential ways. Suttas and ideas concerning one cannot be applied directly to the other. You ask, "Can you show me exactly where in the extract posted that Buddhaghosa suggests there are `several paths' or `many minor paths (magga) [which] become the one path." Does Buddhaghosa write that there are many `paths of purification'? Even though he doesn't state it exactly that way, in essence he does. He writes: "In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone," The operative word here is `alone'. If the path of purification, the path to nibbana, is taught by insight alone than insight is the path. This doesn't compare to the Satipatthana Sutta because there all factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are stressed; one couldn't become enlightened by `Right Speech' alone, for example. Buddhaghosa continues to write, in the same vein, "And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is said:" The operative word here is `according', which means that the same `alone' idea is continued. Buddhaghosa then goes through a list, pulling from sources all throughout the Pali Canon that each support the `alone' concept for each value, until we get this list: 1. Insight (panna) 2. Contemplation and insight (jhana and panna) 3. Action (kamma) 4. Morality or virtue (sua) 5. Mindfulness (sati) 6. Right effort (samma vayama) However, Buddhaghosa doesn't leave each of these things separated, he combines them into a three-fold path, not using the Sutta quote you use Sarah, but by analyzing another quote: "`When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. 8. Herein there is nothing for him to do about the [native] understanding on account of which he is called wise; for that has been established in him simply by the influence of previous kamma. But the words ardent and sagacious mean that by persevering with energy of the kind here described and by acting in full awareness with understanding he should, acting in full awareness with understanding he should, having become well established in virtue, develop the serenity and insight that are described as Concentration and Understanding. This is how the Blessed One shows the path of purification under the headings of virtue, concentration and understanding there." When Buddhaghosa refers to `The Path' later in the Visudhimmaga, he is referring to this three-fold path, not the original minor paths (magga) that he listed. That is why I `rejected' your quotes, because they come later in the Vis. Now, to understand why I say that Buddhaghosa has invented these three categories is going to be difficult because it is very subtle. The categories of morality, concentration and insight by Buddhaghosa are not the same three aggregates that you refer to in this sutta from MN. This sutta details that the Noble Eightfold path can be explained in three aggregates, namely morality, concentration, and insight, but that the three and the one are not the same thing. As the sutta states, "The three aggregates are not included by the Noble eightfold Path, friend Visakha, but the Noble Eightfold Path is included by the three aggregates." The footnote explains, "The word khandha here has a different meaning than in the more common context of the five aggregates affected by clinging. It here refers to a body of training principles, the three divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path into virtue (sila), concentration (samadhi), and wisdom (panna)." This is NOT how Buddhaghosa uses these terms. He presents these terms in the same light that he presents the introductory values, as sovereign, independent concepts. To Buddhagohsa, Virtue (Sila) isn't a category for a set of training principals, it is a single entity. The same follows for Concentration and Wisdom. Then he defines these three values in terms of four conditions…but that is beyond the scope of this post. I hope I have explained myself thoroughly. If anyone other than Sarah has actually read to the end of this post, you should be congratulated! ;-) Metta, James 27114 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:42am Subject: Re: In search of .....Sinhala commentaries --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > There are about another dozen or so such books, written up to the 13th > century, mentioned with quotations and references to the Sinhalese > commentaries. I'll them all if you like when I have time. Hi Sarah, Yes, I want you to list every single one of them! ;-) (just kidding). No, I think this is enough. I have no reason to doubt this scholarship, it seems pretty sound. However, this is somewhat contradictory to what hs been discussed earlier, that the original commentaries had fallen into disuse. If authors were using them up into the thirteenth century, then they were pretty important. Why did they suddenly disappear? As I have stated before, I don't believe that Buddhaghosa threw them away or something, but I do think that they met with foul play of some sort. Ohhh…a mystery! ;-) Metta, James 27115 From: nordwest Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Michael / transference of merit. Dear friends, in other words: You have the Pure Mind already, but it is in an unwholsome condition, it is defiled with bad habits and negative imprints of karmic deeds form billions of former lifetimes. This is what we have to change by stopping the mind from thinking at all. THe ultimate goal is the non-thinking mind. So we practice mindfullness on ONE THING , andone thing only.. this can be any object: a mantra, a buddha, a stone, a bottle of coca cola. Seriously, you can prove this: Take a bottle of a houshold article and concentrate mindfull on it, see its shape, the color, the refelction of the light on it.. study it like your life would depend on knowing this object. You will reach mindfulness in a few minutes. The mind is wandering, this must stop. Gassho, Thomas Michael Beisert wrote: Hello Sarah, Sarah: It’s not how I understand samma-sati or right mindfulness which has to be a wholesome state accompanying a moment of ‘pure mind’ consciousness;-) Michael: This needs some additional clarification. First mindfulness is a beautiful cetasika and therefore only arises in wholesome cittas. In unwholesome cittas there is no possibility of mindfulness being present. Second if consciousness is ‘pure’ then the task has been done, the burden laid down, and there will be no more rebirths, because a purified mind is the mind of an arahant. I cannot comprehend a mind that has alternating moments of purity and moments of impurity. I can understand a mind which has moments of kusala/akusala or wholesome/unwholesome but this is quite different from pure/impure. 27116 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45, water. Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/18/03 2:29:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > op 17-11-2003 22:39 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > >How are we to be mindful of the water element? > N: We cannot try to be mindful of it. Whatever appears through one of the > six doors is the object of sati. We cannot select anything. > =========================== So, Nina, are you saying that there is no vipassana bhavana? No volitional actions that can be taken to cultivate and increase the occurrence of mindfulness? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27117 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hi, Michael - In a message dated 11/18/03 2:30:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > My contention is that the view that dhammas, as defined in the Abhidhamma & > Visudhimagga, are real and ultimate, also is an eternalistic view. It > attributes existence to something which is only another convention. The > dhammas in the Abhidhamma are valid from a phenomenological point of view > but have no real nature. > > Metta > Michael > =========================== I think this depends on what one means by "real" and "ultimate". I prefer "actual" to "real", myself. Conditions such as hardness are actually experienced, which makes them "actual", whereas a particular table, for example, is not something directly experienced, but is merely the imagined referent of a mental construct (a percept). Also, a condition such as hardness is ultimate in the sense that it is not a mental construct built from other experiences. None of this, however, makes a condition such as hardness or an odor or a sight or a sound a self-existent thing. Each of these is but a flashing of actuality which arises momentarily in complete dependence on the coming together of other equally empty phenomena. All actual/ultimate phenomena (paramattha dhammas), while distinguishable, are interdependent and inseparable, and, while not nothing at all, ARE nothing IN AND OF THEMSELVES. This is how I see the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27118 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi, James - In a message dated 11/18/03 4:33:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I hope I have explained myself thoroughly. If anyone other than > Sarah has actually read to the end of this post, you should be > congratulated! ;-) > > ======================= Why, thank you!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27119 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Larry: "Is that why they call it dukkha?" Jon: "Sorry, you've lost me. Is what why they call what dukkha?" Hi Jon, Bit of a joke. If many dhammas arise at once and we can only perceive one at a time, we are incapable of seeing things as they are. Even arahants are incapable of seeing more than one thing at a time. Our only recourse is to concepts which are inherently flawed, even when "right". No wonder this is dukkha. Larry ps: thanks for the tip for escribe. L 27120 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Nina: "Only one citta experiencing one object through one doorway." Hi Nina, I agree; that is the way experience unfolds. What about the cetasikas? Various numbers of cetasikas arise with the one citta but we don't experience them unless they are an object of consciousness, and then only one at a time. Correct? Larry 27121 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. mindfulness of cohesion "A bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the mode of materiality, THINKING thus: 'There are, in this body, the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' Nina: "He reflects on the elements and is reminded to be directly aware of whatever reality appears. Satipatthana is not thinking. In the Satipatthanasutta the Buddha arranged the objects of mindfulness in many different ways to help different people to be aware of the presently arisen reality. What appeals to one person may not appeal to another one. Does this make sense to you?" Hi Nina, No, I doesn't make sense. It says right there, "thinking thus". "Thinking thus" is thinking. We could say there are different kinds of thinking. Reflecting is thinking. We are obviously using concepts in this exercise. How else can we be mindful of the water element? The idea is to change one's view of the body from being a "nest" to being these 4 disembodied elements. Here we definitely want to separate the elements, as a butcher separates the parts of a cow. We are cultivating non-attachment, not an accurate view of reality. I agree that it's not for everyone. Larry 27122 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi James I don't think they will ban you just bc you don't conform or agreeable or critical (cross you fingers :) ). This what make DSG so interesting, so many kinds of different thoughts on Buddhism. So many differnt ways of interpreting Buddhism. In the end, it is the learning spirit, the investigating spirit and not blind faith that make Buddhism so enticing. Cheers Ken O --- buddhatrue wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > Hi KKT, > > > James, one year already!;-) > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== > > Hi Sarah, > > Yea, it's amazing that I have lasted that long and haven't been > completely banned (at least not yet ;-). > > Metta, James > > 27123 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Michael / transference of merit. Hi Thomas What is a non-thinking mind - could you kindly elaborate? I thought mindfullness is practise in our every waking momments, why do we need a bottle to practise that? To use a bottle to practise is more like for investigating impermanence and anatta and not mindfullness. kind rgds Ken O --- nordwest wrote: > Dear friends, in other words: You have the Pure Mind already, but > it is in an unwholsome condition, it is defiled with bad habits and > negative imprints of karmic deeds form billions of former > lifetimes. This is what we have to change by stopping the mind from > thinking at all. THe ultimate goal is the non-thinking mind. So we > practice mindfullness on ONE THING , andone thing only.. this can > be any object: a mantra, a buddha, a stone, a bottle of coca cola. > Seriously, you can prove this: Take a bottle of a houshold article > and concentrate mindfull on it, see its shape, the color, the > refelction of the light on it.. study it like your life would > depend on knowing this object. You will reach mindfulness in a few > minutes. > > The mind is wandering, this must stop. > > Gassho, > Thomas > 27124 From: mlnease Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Sarah and Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah That sounds like a half-promise, Connie;-) Perhaps we could ask Mike to do a quick sketch;-) I should think you've had enough half-promises from me...! Best wishes all around. mike 27125 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > > > My contention is that the view that dhammas, as defined in the Abhidhamma & > Visudhimagga, are real and ultimate, also is an eternalistic view. It > attributes existence to something which is only another convention. The > dhammas in the Abhidhamma are valid from a phenomenological point of view > but have no real nature. > Dear Michael, Could you tell us more about your view. How does it relate to this sutta: Samyutta nikaya Khanda vagga XXII 94 (p.950 of Bodhi translation) "Rupa(matter, physical phenomena) that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say it exists. Feeling...perception..volitional formations..consciouness..that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change..I too say that it exists" endquote RobertK 27126 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis in different editions Hi Michael the trouble is the numbering which varies in different editions. I have the Nanamoli one. Nina. op 17-11-2003 19:54 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > I didn't quote the passage not to overload the message even more. The > passage DK mentions is Vism 328. 27127 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:24pm Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa Hi James, op 18-11-2003 17:41 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Hi Sarah, > > Yea, it's amazing that I have lasted that long and haven't been > completely banned (at least not yet ;-). Nina: It is all right James, it is all right James, pat, pat, pat. But in earnest, you make challenging comments and then a lot of good comes out of it for me. That is my experience. It is a condition for many people to look at issues from all angles. Nina. 27128 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 object of sati Dear Shakti, citta can take realities and concepts as object. But the object of direct awareness, thus sammasati, is a nama or rupa that appears now, not a concept. Nina. op 18-11-2003 18:47 schreef shakti op deannajohnsonusa@y...: > Jon, I'm confused about something that you said. I thought that I heard > once, that citta could never take concepts as an object. ??? 27129 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > If many dhammas arise at once and we can only perceive > one at a time, we are incapable of seeing things as they are. Even > arahants are incapable of seeing more than one thing at a time. On the contrary, it is he who sees more than 1 thing at a time that is unable to see things as they truly are. Things that arise but are not directly experienced by a person do not form part of 'things as they are' of that moment for that person, so not seeing them is no shortcoming on his/her part. The difficulty lies in seeing that in reality there is only 1 moment of consciousness and 1 object of that consciousness at any given time, and that all dhammas are conditioned, arising and falling away. Not exactly easy to comprehend other than at a purely intellectual level, is it ;-)) > Our only recourse is to concepts which are inherently flawed, > even when "right". > No wonder this is dukkha. Concepts are just concepts. They are not inherently anything. They are the way we think about actual phenomena. Contrary to the impression some may have, concepts are not part of the problem -- ignorance and wrong view are the problem. Jon 27130 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:23pm Subject: Re: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi Ken O, --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James > > I don't think they will ban you just bc you don't conform or > agreeable or critical (cross you fingers :) ). .... I assure you that all the parameters have been well and truly tested in this case and there have been times when ‘they’ have been at their wits’ end ;-) .... >This what make DSG so > interesting, so many kinds of different thoughts on Buddhism. So > many differnt ways of interpreting Buddhism. In the end, it is the > learning spirit, the investigating spirit and not blind faith that > make Buddhism so enticing. .... :) Metta, Sarah p.s I agree with your comment to Victor about attachment - clinging to anything, even to calm or wisdom or other wholesome states. Hence, tanha (craving) is the cause of suffering. (Only exceptions: nibbana and lokuttara cittas cannot be objects of attachment) ====== 27131 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:49pm Subject: Mike's Half-promises Hi Mike (& Connie), S:> That sounds like a half-promise, Connie;-) Perhaps we could ask Mike > to do a quick sketch;-) > M:> I should think you've had enough half-promises from me...! > > Best wishes all around. .... Connie, on second thoughts, let's not ask Mike to do a sketch of you.....reflections on decaying bodies aside, I think a photo would be quicker and simpler;-) Mike, good to see your name here;-);-) Larry was just asking after you (you'll soon catch up with his message). I thought of letting him know that you might have one or two (pleasant) distractions these days, but will let you fill him in if you wish. Have you come across all the posts on accumulations yet?? Also, if you'd like copies of the tapes from our last trip, let me know so I can give you (and anyone else), K. Supatsorn's new email address. Metta, Sarah p.s The occasional one-liner here, even a 'Me-too' would be good these days;-) ======= 27132 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie, I thought your summary of the three kinds of decisive support condition was very clear and helpful. Any comments I add below are more like comments to myself with which you're welcome to take issue;-) If you feel at all inclined to give summaries of the other 23 now, that would be very helpful to many of us, I’m sure. Icaro, especially, will be glad to see your name and humour anytime when he returns;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 1. When we refer to conventional language descriptions of conditions in the suttas, such as ‘living in the village’ or ‘association with wise companions’ etc, I understand these to be representations of various realities which act as pakatupanissaya paccaya and other conditions. 2. I don’t think we can say ‘kamma can be pakatupanissaya-paccaya for vipaka’ as these are two different conditions. We can say that there have to be other dhammas acting as pakatupanissaya paccaya to support kamma paccaya bring about vipaka I think. I discussed just this point with RobM. 3. When we say namas, rupas, nibbana and concepts can be (rather than ‘are’) natural decisive support condition, we need to clarify what is meant by concepts here. Actually, I understand that terms like ‘climate’ listed in the Patthana, refer to realities represented by these shorthand concepts. What you wrote was correct, but it depends how it is understood. ====== 27133 From: mwr45678 Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:43pm Subject: Natural Breathing OK. New to meditation, blah, blah, blah. Studying Vipassana. I am told to focus on my breathing but that the breathing should be natural. Problem is, when I focus on the breath, I have to breathe consciously. In other words, when I meditate, I am no longer breathing autonomically. What gives? Does/has anyone else have/had this problem? Have I dreadfully misunderstood this whole thing? Does anyone know how to do this? 27134 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi RobM & Ken H, I’ve been waiting patiently for KenH to continue your interesting thread. Lost on his surfboard?? Meanwhile, having just read an article about ‘surf rage’ Down Under, may I join in? [Actually, I'm just taking a break from the Buddhaghosa and DK threads 'til I feel brave;-)] ..... --- robmoult wrote: >The way I see it, everything arises because of > supporting conditions. For some people, because of their > accumulations, sitting in the lotus position is a supporting > condition for Satipatthana. For some people, because of their > accumulations, waiting at a red light is a supporting condition for > Satipatthana. For some people, because of their accumulations, being > in the middle of road rage is a supporting condition for > Satipatthana. .... Your arguments are becoming more and more refined, Rob;-) As we know, any moment of Satipatthana is only ever 'this one' and anything may have been a supporting condition as you indicate. However, there is a difference between understanding this (at least theoretically) when satipatthana arises and having any idea or expectation that it will arise again by tying to repeat those same conditions. For example, let's say that the anger experienced during road or surf rage happens to be the object of satipatthana (or to act as decisive support). Any idea of repeating the rage for this result would clearly be wrong view with wrong expectations and also a false idea that somehow conditions can be controlled by a ‘self’, however subtle. Hence we come back to understanding with detachment and no expectation, rather than a prescribed course of action. ..... > I see papanca (mental proliferation) as the enemy of mindfulness. > Situations which condition a lot of papanca are unlikely to support > the arising of mindfulness. I tend to "lose it" during moments of > madness such as road rage and papanca takes over. I tend to "be with > it" during moments of sitting (though I admit that I am an > infrequent meditator). .... All we can say is that the realities are conditioned as they are at such times. Even whilst ‘losing it’, there can be moments of satipatthana and vice versa. It depends on the understanding rather than the obvious papanca, I think. After all, even amongst all that papanca, there can be moments of satipatthana. Otherwise we’re limiting its scope again or having expectations about mindfulness arising at another time. More clinging to the self. ..... > > I know what you are going to say... you are going to say that you > detect a sense of self wanting to control the situation, when in > fact trying to control the situation is like trying to control > gravity. .... ;-) .... > Dana, sila and bhavana will arise when conditions are conducive. How > can they be "put off"? Does it make sense to talk of "putting off > gravity"? Your question has a whiff of "self in control" about it! > Touche! :-) :-) :-) ..... ;-) You know all the right answers. So whether there are conditions to be road-raging or sitting in a lotus or making an offering now, OK. No other time for satipatthana;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Maybe now you can both help with the DK/Buddhaghosa threads;-) ====== 27135 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:55am Subject: Re: Natural Breathing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mwr45678" wrote: > OK. New to meditation, blah, blah, blah. Studying Vipassana. I am > told to focus on my breathing but that the breathing should be > natural. Problem is, when I focus on the breath, I have to breathe > consciously. In other words, when I meditate, I am no longer > breathing autonomically. What gives? Does/has anyone else have/had > this problem? Have I dreadfully misunderstood this whole thing? Does > anyone know how to do this? Hi Friend, I think that you are putting too much emphasis on the idea of `natural' breathing; as if `natural' breathing has to mean that it is automatic and unconscious. The breath is still natural even if you are conscious of it and in control. Allow me to quote part of an essay to explain: "Of course, there were times when clinging and obsessiveness forced the breath this way and that, including forcedly deep. That, however, wasn't what the Buddha meant and I found ways to avoid that particular habit. So what breathing was "natural"? Were all the shallow, tight, tired, hot, erratic, stressed breaths "natural"? In the sense that everything is ultimately Dhamma, sure, they are natural. In the sense of healthy, useful, skilful — no way! Shifting from busy-minded breathing to gentle-walking breathing has taught me that they aren't the kind of "natural" I need (like being bit by a rattlesnake isn't the kind of natural I need). In fact, they were examples of the short breathing mentioned by the Buddha. Off and on over the years, I'd stumbled upon genuine long breathing — deep, full, slow, relaxed, joyful. It usually happened when mind would drop some obsession or irritation to simply settle in and ride with the breathing. Yoga, massage, and soaks in the hot springs helped, too. Ajarn Buddhadasa didn't mind "controlling" the breathing if it brought healthy results, so I also found creative ways to foster — not force — long breathing and through it internally massage tightness and tension in chest, solar plexus, back, and abdomen. The easing and lightening could then spread throughout the body. Increasingly, these developed without conscious effort. However they might arrive, the results were delightful. Body more relaxed and light, whether walking or sitting. Mind much more settled and clear. Pleasant feelings. Happiness. Maybe that's why the Buddha talked about these things specifically and not just the watered down "watch your breathing." He even taught us to experience satisfaction and joy as we breathe in and out." --Santikaro Bhikkhu, Technology of Breathing in and Out Hope this helps. Best wishes for your practice. Metta, James 27136 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:15am Subject: Magical illusions Hi Azita, Michael, RobertK, Larry, Thomas & All, Robert’s recent helpful post on sabhava and quoting the section from the Phena sutta commentary about feelings as bubbles - transient and conditioned and ungraspable - reminded me that Larry also quoted from the same commentary notes recently (post no 26548). Azita, you were asking in Myanmar about the reason why the 5 khandhas are as they are and I think the sutta and these commentary notes help us appreciate how much grasping there is of form which is like ‘foam without substance’, ungraspable bubbles of feelings and how deceived we are by the mirage of perception for a start: Spk: Perception is like a mirage (mariicikaa) in the sense that it is > insubstantial, for one cannot grasp a mirage to drink or bathe or > fill a pitcher. As a mirage deceives the multitude, so does > perception, which entices people with the idea that the colourful > object is beautiful, pleasurable, and permanent. ..... Michael, when we read about consciousness in the commentary, we read: > Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense > that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even > more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the > impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the > same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. > Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion. ..... No lasting mind of any kind or ‘essence’ other than the transient characteristics or nature when it (citta) arises fleetingly. Larry, I’m not sure that anyone responded to your following comments after posting these passages: > --- Larry wrote: > Larry: Perhaps we could say consciousness gives the impression that a > person comes and goes with the same mind because of the unchanging > nature of consciousness itself, while what changes is the object of > consciousness and the mental body (feeling, perception, volitional > formations). .... The wrong impression is a result of moha (ignorance) and lack of panna (wisdom). As the descriptions make clear, all the khandhas arise and fall away ‘more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion’. .... > It is interesting that of the three "modes of knowing"(perception, > consciousness, understanding) understanding falls in the volitional > formations category which is illustrated by the plantain trunk which > is an assemblage of many phenomena. .... the 50 cetasikas apart from sanna and vedana. .... >Understanding understands > precisely this, that experience is an assemblage of many phenomena, > each with its own characteristic. .... One characteristic or reality to be known at a time as you’re discussing with Nina and Jon. Metta, Sarah ====== 27137 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:31am Subject: Re: Traffic Lights Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Your arguments are becoming more and more refined, Rob;-) Natural decisive support condition from hanging around DSG :-) I've been silent for a few days because I lost my handphone (a nuisance) and my hard disk crashed (major nuisance). I have been busy getting re-connected with the world and trying to recover whatever data I could. You may have noticed that I added a few more zipped files into the "Files" section of DSG; I am now up to message 9000. Unfortunately, I lost the rest of the raw data when my disk crashed. Sarah / Jon, I remember passing to you a bunch of files a year or so ago in HK. I think that this included raw data past message 9000. If that is so, please email me the raw data files past message 9000 so that I can continue producing Word documents. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that I am not going to be able to meet my target of having all the messages ready by Christmas. I have been observing my mental states as these nuisances have arisen. Interesting - very little dosa... even a bit of lobha (new handphone, new features :-) ). I will be tied up in India next week and China the following week. I just found out today that I need to go to Sri Lanka for a few days the following week. I am really excited. On my last trip to Columbo, I brought an extra suitcase just for Dhamma books and I was able to fill it up for less than US$100 (Dhamma books are really cheap there). After that, I am off to Canada for three weeks. Hopefully, this travel itinery explains my relatively low profile for the rest of 2003. Metta, Rob M :-) 27138 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:01am Subject: Natural Decisive Support Condition Last Sunday, I gave a talk on Natural Decisive Support Condition. When it was over, somebody commented, "Natural Decisive Support Condition... it sounds like a health care product!" :-) :-) :-) 27139 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > Your arguments are becoming more and more refined, Rob;-) > > Natural decisive support condition from hanging around DSG :-) .... ;-) ....> > I've been silent for a few days because I lost my handphone (a > nuisance) and my hard disk crashed (major nuisance). I have been > busy getting re-connected with the world and trying to recover > whatever data I could. You may have noticed that I added a few more > zipped files into the "Files" section of DSG; I am now up to message > 9000. Unfortunately, I lost the rest of the raw data when my disk > crashed. Sarah / Jon, I remember passing to you a bunch of files a > year or so ago in HK. I think that this included raw data past > message 9000. If that is so, please email me the raw data files past > message 9000 so that I can continue producing Word documents. > Unfortunately, the bottom line is that I am not going to be able to > meet my target of having all the messages ready by Christmas. .... Very sorry to hear about this. I just checked and I think the file you passed us goes up to 17,000. Jon says he'll liaise with you off-list to see how we can help. Funny, I thought about asking for a disc of the most recent up-date, but not enough decisive conditions;-) Maybe next time. ..... > > I have been observing my mental states as these nuisances have > arisen. Interesting - very little dosa... even a bit of lobha (new > handphone, new features :-) ). ..... Which just goes to show.... we never know;-)Glad to hear there's not too much dosa. It's the kind of example where there's not necesarily anthing obvious that's inherently undesirable (i.e any obvious akusala vipaka) through eyes, ears, body and so on and yet the thinking can condition so much difficulty and stress. ..... > I will be tied up in India next week and China the following week. I > just found out today that I need to go to Sri Lanka for a few days > the following week. I am really excited. On my last trip to Columbo, > I brought an extra suitcase just for Dhamma books and I was able to > fill it up for less than US$100 (Dhamma books are really cheap > there). After that, I am off to Canada for three weeks. > > Hopefully, this travel itinery explains my relatively low profile > for the rest of 2003. .... Thanks for letting us know, RobM and hope you have safe travels with no more mishaps. Ranil and Sumane, if you're reading this, you might like to contact Rob when he's in Colombo. You'd all have good abhidhamma discussions I know;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27140 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:56am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 28, 29, 30, 31 [Regarding the two planes (trainer and non-trainer) of the four kinds of discrimination] 28. And though they come into the categories of the two planes thus, they are nevertheless distinguishable in five aspects, that is to say, as achievement, mastery of scriptures, hearing, questioning, and prior effort. Herein, "achievement" is the reaching of Arahantship. "Mastery of scriptures" is mastery of the Buddha's word. "Hearing" is learning the Dhamma carefully and attentively. "Questioning" is discussion of knotty passages and explanatory passages in the texts, commentaries, and so on. "Prior effort" is devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas, up to the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and change-of-lineage by one who has practiced [the duty of] going [with the meditation subject on alms round] and coming back [with it]. (11) 28. eva.m dviisu bhuumiisu pabheda.m gacchantiyopi cetaa adhigamena pariyattiyaa savanena paripucchaaya pubbayogena caati imehi pa~ncahaakaarehi visadaa honti. tattha adhigamo naama arahattappatti. pariyatti naama buddhavacanassa pariyaapu.nana.m. savana.m naama sakkacca.m atthi.m katvaa dhammassavana.m. paripucchaa naama paa.lia.t.thakathaadiisu ga.n.thipadaatthapadavinicchayakathaa, pubbayogo naama pubbabuddhaana.m saasane gatapaccaagatikabhaavena yaava anuloma.m gotrabhusamiipa.m, taava vipassanaanuyogo. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ 29. Others have said: 'A prior effort, and great knowledge, [Knowledge of] dialects, of scriptures, And questioning, and then achievement, And likewise waiting on a teacher, Success in friends--these are conditions Productive of discriminations'. 29. apare aahu -- ``pubbayogo baahusacca.m, desabhaasaa ca aagamo. paripucchaa adhigamo, garusannissayo tathaa. mittasampatti cevaati, pa.tisambhidapaccayaa''ti.. 30. Herein, "prior effort" is the same as already stated. "Great learning" is skill in some science or sphere of craft. "Dialects" means skill in the hundred-and-one tongues, particularly in that of Magadha. "Scriptures" means mastery of the Buddha's word, even if only of the Chapter of Similes. (12) "Questioning" is questioning about defining the meaning of even a single stanza. "Achievement" is stream-entry ... or Arahantship. "Waiting on a teacher" is living with very learned intelligent teachers. "Success in friends" is acquisition of friends such as that. [443] 30. tattha pubbayogo vuttanayova. baahusacca.m naama tesu tesu satthesu ca sippaayatanesu ca kusalataa. desabhaasaa naama ekasatavohaarakusalataa. visesena pana maagadhike kosalla.m. aagamo naama antamaso opammavaggamattassapi buddhavacanassa pariyaapu.nana.m. paripucchaa naama ekagaathaayapi atthavinicchayapucchana.m. adhigamo naama sotaapannataa vaa...pe0... arahatta.m vaa. garusannissayo naama sutapa.tibhaanabahulaana.m garuuna.m santike vaaso. mittasampatti naama tathaaruupaana.myeva mittaana.m pa.tilaabhoti. +++++++++++++++++++++++ 31. Herein, Buddhas and Paccekabuddhas reach discriminations through prior effort and through achievement. Disciples do so through all these means. And there is no special way of developing a meditation subject in order to attain discriminations. But in trainers the attaining of the discriminations comes about next upon the liberation consisting in trainers' fruition, and in non-trainers it does so next upon the liberation consisting in non-trainers' fruition. For the discriminations come to success in noble ones only through the noble fruition as the ten powers do in Perfect Ones. So these were the discriminations referred to when it was said above 'It is of four kinds ... as the four discriminations' (par. 8). 31. tattha buddhaa ca paccekabuddhaa ca pubbayoga~nceva adhigama~nca nissaaya pa.tisambhidaa paapu.nanti. saavakaa sabbaanipi etaani kaara.naani. pa.tisambhidaappattiyaa ca paa.tiyekko kamma.t.thaanabhaavanaanuyogo naama natthi. sekkhaana.m pana sekkhaphalavimokkhantikaa. asekkhaana.m asekkhaphalavimokkhantikaava pa.tisambhidaappatti hoti. tathaagataana.m hi dasabalaani viya ariyaana.m ariyaphaleneva pa.tisambhidaa ijjhantiiti imaa pa.tisambhidaa sandhaaya vutta.m catupa.tisambhidaavasena catubbidhaati. ++++++++++++++++++++ (11) The expression "gatapaccaagatikabhaava" refers to the practice of 'carrying the meditation subject to and from the alms round', which is described at MA.i,257 in detail. The same expression is also used of a certain kind of refuse-rag (see Ch. II, par.17). (12) 'The "Chapter of Similes" is the Chapter of Twin Verses in the Dhammapada (Dh.1-20), they say. Others say it is the Book of Pairs in the First Fifty (M. Suttas 31-40)' (Pm. 436). 27141 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/18/03 11:24:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Nina: "Only one citta experiencing one object through one doorway." > > Hi Nina, > > I agree; that is the way experience unfolds. What about the cetasikas? > Various numbers of cetasikas arise with the one citta but we don't > experience them unless they are an object of consciousness, and then > only one at a time. Correct? > > Larry > =========================== If I may add my own personal take on this: While we are not experiencing the cetasikas as objects, we *are* experiencing them as "flavorings" of, or "background music" for, the mindstate. At least it seems to me, for example, that there can be an accompanying flavoring of sadness or of happiness throughout the process of discerning a sequence a objects. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27142 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Jon (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/19/03 3:45:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Larry > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > >If many dhammas arise at once and we can only perceive > >one at a time, we are incapable of seeing things as they are. Even > >arahants are incapable of seeing more than one thing at a time. > > On the contrary, it is he who sees more than 1 thing at a time that > is unable to see things as they truly are. > > Things that arise but are not directly experienced by a person do not > form part of 'things as they are' of that moment for that person, so > not seeing them is no shortcoming on his/her part. > > The difficulty lies in seeing that in reality there is only 1 moment > of consciousness and 1 object of that consciousness at any given > time, and that all dhammas are conditioned, arising and falling away. > > Not exactly easy to comprehend other than at a purely intellectual > level, is it ;-)) > > > >Our only recourse is to concepts which are inherently flawed, > >even when "right". > >No wonder this is dukkha. > > Concepts are just concepts. They are not inherently anything. They > are the way we think about actual phenomena. Contrary to the > impression some may have, concepts are not part of the problem -- > ignorance and wrong view are the problem. > > Jon > > =============================== How is what is unobserved and unobservable anything other than concept-only, merely inferable? How is it that, on the one hand a group of rupas is what actually arises, yet on the other hand "Things that arise but are not directly experienced by a person do not form part of 'things as they are' of that moment for that person, so not seeing them is no shortcoming on his/her part."? It seems to me that when you add the phrase 'for that person', then "things as they are" turns into things as they are limitedly perceived, but not in their fullness. Mind you, I am not questioning here the assertion that at any time there is only one act of consciousness discerning but one object via one sense door. Actually, I would be surprised if that were not the case. My specific point is that if rupas arise (somewhere, somehow, in some sense) as a group, but with only one being an object of consciousness, this is discoverable (on evidence, perhaps retrievable from mental traces) only by inference. My more general point is that some of what is true in "the world", perhaps much, is knowable only inferentially. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27143 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural Breathing Hi, mwr4songs (a name you choose to use here might be helpful ;-), In a message dated 11/19/03 4:10:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, mwr4songs@g... writes: > OK. New to meditation, blah, blah, blah. Studying Vipassana. I am > told to focus on my breathing but that the breathing should be > natural. Problem is, when I focus on the breath, I have to breathe > consciously. In other words, when I meditate, I am no longer > breathing autonomically. What gives? Does/has anyone else have/had > this problem? Have I dreadfully misunderstood this whole thing? Does > anyone know how to do this? > > =========================== What you are experiencing is not at all uncommon. With continued practice, and as the mind calms down, you will find that the attention one gives to the breath less and less affects it, and, after a while, there will be no discernable influence at all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27144 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:57am Subject: Re: Buddhist questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > Thank you for answering my questions! well, > I have a a few new ones. > 1.How is the mind of the Buddha like? ( I mean > like how he taught the Buddhist) > 2.Did the Buddha tell his people not to > communicate with bad spirits? > 3.What language does the Buddha communicate in? > That's all > Metta, > Janice Hi Star Kid Janice! You're very welcome for the answers. Okay, let me jump into these questions: 1.How is the mind of the Buddha like? ( I mean like how he taught the Buddhist) Answer: This is a very good question! Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you. The mind of a Buddha cannot be known by the mind of a regular person. Our minds are too `dirty' with anger, greed, and delusion (false belief) to really know what a Buddha's mind is like. The only way to know a Buddha's mind is to become enlightened oneself. 2.Did the Buddha tell his people not to communicate with bad spirits? Answer: No, he didn't really say not to communicate with them; he just said to know them for what they are. Different monks and nuns had conversations with a bad spirit named Mara, but it was only to make him go away. Let him know that he had no power or influence over them. 3.What language does the Buddha communicate in? Answer: Buddhism can be communicated in all languages, but it is widely believed that the actual language of the Lord Buddha was Pali. Hope this answers your questions. Thanks for writing. Study hard in school. Metta, James 27145 From: connie Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:15am Subject: Re: Vis in different editions Hi Michael and Nina, Hi Michael the trouble is the numbering which varies in different editions. I have the Nanamoli one. Nina. op 17-11-2003 19:54 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > I didn't quote the passage not to overload the message even more. The > passage DK mentions is Vism 328. The copy I have gives the Harvard edition numbers in [brackets], so for what it's worth, that [328] minus {footnotes} is below. peace, connie Vsm X,9: He adverts again and again to the sign of the space left by the removal of the kasina [328] as 'Space, space', and he strikes at it with thought and applied thought. As he adverts to it again and again and strikes at it with thought and applied thought the hindrances are suppressed, mindfulness is established and his mind becomes concentrated in acccess. He cultivates that sign again and again, develops and repeatedly practices it. 10: As he again and again adverts to it and gives attention to it in this way consciousness belonging to the Base Consisting of Boundless Space arises in absorption with the space [as its object], as the consciousness belonging to the fine-material sphere did in the case of the earth kasina, and so on. And here too in the prior stage there are either three or four sensual-sphere impulsions associated with equanimous feeling, while the fourth or the fifth is of the immaterial sphere. The rest is the same as in the case of the earth kasina (Ch.IV,74). 11. There is however, this difference. When the immaterial-sphere concsiousness has arisen in this way, the bhikkhu, who has been formerly looking at the kasina disk with the jhana eye, finds himself looking at only space after that sign has been abruptly removed by the attention given in the preliminary work thus 'Space, space'. He is like a man who has plugged an opening in a [covered] vehicle, a sack or a pot {2} with a piece of blue rag or with a piece of rag of some such colour as yellow, red or white and is looking at that, and then when the rag is removed by force of the wind or by some other agency, he finds himself looking at space. [Text and Commentary] 12. And at this point it is said: With the complete surmounting (samatikkamaa) of perceptions of matter, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, with non-attention to perceptions of variety, [aware of] "Unbounded space", he enters upon and dwells in the base consisting of boundless space' (Vbh.245). 13. Herein, complete is in all aspects or of all [perceptions]; without exception, is the meaning. Of perceptions of matter: both (a) of the fine-material jhanas mentioned [here] under the heading of 'perception' and (b) of those things that are their object. For (a) the jhana of the fine-material sphere is called 'matter' in such passages as 'Possessed of visible matter he sees instances of matter' (D.ii,70; M.ii,12), and (b) it is its object too [that is called 'matter'] in such passages as 'He sees instances of visible matter externally, ... fair and ugly' (D.ii,110; M.ii,13). {3} Consequently here the words 'perceptions of matter (ruupa-sa~n~naa - lit. matter-perceptions)', in the sense of 'perceptions about matter', are used (a) for fine-material jhana stated thus under the heading of 'perceptions'. [Also] (b) it has the label (sa~n~naa) 'matter (ruupa)' thus it (the jhana's object) is 'labelled matter (ruupa-sa~n~na.m)'; what is meant is that 'matter' is its name. So it should be understood that this is also a term for (b) what is classed as the earth kasina, etc., which is the object of that [jhana]. {4} [329] 27146 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati, II a, training. op 18-11-2003 18:22 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he > knows ³I breathe out long.² > He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body²; he trains > thus ³I shall breathe out > experiencing the whole body². > Nina, I am very interested in this first tetrad of the sutta because it > connects with my meditation practice. Is it possible to expand a little bit > on the meaning of knows’ and trains’. I think those are clear pointers for > someone who is involved in the practice of meditation. N: Vis. VIII, 165 etc: "But their length and shortness should be understood by extent (addhaana)...so in the case of elephants' and snakes' bodies the in-breaths and out-breaths regarded as particles slowly fill the long extent, in other words, their persons, and slowly go out again. That is why they are called long...> the opposite is said of short. A note of the Tiika to particles: As to group, kalapa, rupas arise in groups which are rapidly arising and falling away. So is the rupa we call breath. In conventional sense we say that the breath is long or short. Another long footnote to Vis. VIII, 168. Thus, development: making much of, increase. Not only concentration, but realizing the three charactristics is the goal. Mindfulness of the realities appearing while breathing in order to know their true characteristics. I am glad you brought this up, and as you will see, I also inserted parts of discussion between Jon and Rob Ep about this subject. As you see, Nanamoli translates as essence what is sabhava, as we just discussed: the individual characteristic of a reality. Vis. VII, 173:Herein, he trains: he strives, he endeavours in this way. Or else the restraint here in one such as this is training (sikkha) in the higher virtue, his consciousness is training in the higher consciousness, and his understanding is training in the higher understanding (Patisambidhamagga I, 184). So he trains in, repeats, develops, repeatedly practises, these three kinds of training, on that object, by means of that mindfulness, by means of that attention...> Higher virtue (adhisiila), higher consciousness (adhicitta), and higher understanding (adhipa~n~naa) are always connected with vipassana. In the next para it is said in the present tense: he knows I breathe in...But then the future tense is used: <"I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body" should be understood as used in order to show that the aspect of arousing knowledge, etc. , has to be undertaken from then on.> So many aspects I have not considered myself enough. This subject is very useful. Nina. 27147 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Vis.Tiika.36.part.III Tiika 36 part III Relevant text of Vis. 36: ... bodily intimation,verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment. ...kaayavi~n~natti, vaciivi~n~natti, aakaasadhaatu, ruupassa lahutaa, ruupassa mudutaa , ruupassa kamma~n~nataa, ruupassa upacayo, ruupassa santati, ruupassa jarataa, ruupassa aniccataa, kaba.liikaaro aahaaroti. Text Tiika 36, part III: words: copana: agitation adhippaaya(m): intention vi~n~natti: communication. viggaha: analysis, resolution (into parts) dibbati: to enjoy nipphanna: produced Text: Copanakaayabhaavato kaayo ca so adhippaayavi~n~naapanato vi~n~natti caati kaayavi~n~natti. The body, with its nature of bodily agitation, and the intimation which makes known an intention, is thus bodily intimation. Copanavaacaabhaavato, adhippaayavi~n~naapanato ca vacii ca saa vi~n~natti caati vaciivi~n~natti. Speech with its nature of agitation of the voice, and this intimation which makes known an intention, is thus verbal intimation. Viggahaabhaavato na kassati, kasitu.m chinditu.m na sakkaa, na vaa kaasati dibbatiiti akaasa.m, akaasameva aakaasa.m, tadeva nissattanijjiiva.t.thena aakaasadhaatu. It is space, because it cannot be broken up, it cannot be ploughed *; it is not possible to plough it or to break it, or it does not appear, and thus, one does not enjoy what does mot appear; what does not appear is space. Then, because it is without a living soul, it is the element of space. Ruupassaati nipphannaruupassa. Lahubhaavo lahutaa. As to the expression (lightness) of matter, of produced matter. The nature of being light is lightness. Saya.m anipphannataaya ³ruupassaa²ti visesita.m. Esa nayo sesesupi. Because in itself it is unproduced, it is explained as ³of matter.² This method applies for the remaining qualities **. Aya.m pana visesani kammani saadhu kamma~n~na.m, tassa bhaavo kamma~n~nataa. This is being wieldy for different works, its nature is wieldiness. Pa.thama.m, upari ca cayo pavatti upacayo. The first and the later accumulation is the occurrence, integration.*** Pubbaaparavasena sambandhaa tati pavatti santati. Because of what precedes and follows there are connections, it goes on, proceeds as continuation. Aniccassa vinaasino bhaavo aniccataa. Impermanence is the nature of being impermanent, subject to destruction. Kabala.m kariiyatiiti kaba.liikaaro. It is made into morsels and thus it is morsel-made (food). Aaharatiiti aahaaro. It produces and thus it is food. Eva.m taava upaadaayaruupa.m saddatthato veditabba.m. Thus one should understand the derived material phenomena in as far as it concerns their word meaning. ***** English: The body, with its nature of bodily agitation, and the intimation which makes known an intention, is thus bodily intimation. Speech with its nature of agitation of the voice, and this intimation which makes known an intention, is thus verbal intimation. It is space, because it cannot be broken up, it cannot be ploughed *; it is not possible to plough it or to break it, or it does not appear, and thus, one does not enjoy what does mot appear; what does not appear is space. Then, because it is without a living soul, it is the element of space. As to the expression (lightness) of matter, of produced matter. The nature of being light is lightness. Because in itself it is unproduced, it is explained as ³of matter.² This method applies for the remaining qualities **. This is being wieldy for different works, its nature is wieldiness. The first and the later accumulation is the occurrence, integration.*** Because of what precedes and follows there are connections, it goes on, proceeds as continuation. Impermanence is the nature of being impermanent, subject to destruction. It produces and thus it is food. Thus one should understand the derived material phenomena in as far as it concerns their word meaning. _______ * There is a word association of aakaasa, space and kassati, to plough. Another word derivation, according to Ledi Sayadaw: kaasati: to shine, to appear. ** These are different qualities or characteristics of matter, ruupa: lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter are matter as alteration. They are unproduced, not concrete matter. Growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter are characteristics of matter. *** This refers to the origin or arising of rupa. ***** Nina 27148 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45, water. Dear Howard, Thank you for reacting to my post, I understand that you have a difficult time just now. My thoughts are with you and your family. op 18-11-2003 23:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > So, Nina, are you saying that there is no vipassana bhavana? No > volitional actions that can be taken to cultivate and increase the occurrence > of mindfulness? N: We are not so far apart. I read former posts of you where you said that there is volition but not a self who takes decisions. There is ardour and striving but no self who does. We know this in theory, but the idea of self idea creeps in all the time since we have not eradicated it. The old question comes back: can or should we do something to develop vipassana? You can guess my answer: cultivate conditions. Right theoretical understanding of the basics are the condition and, as you agree, all the perfections. This means, that we are not inclined to think so much about cultivating or thinking of objects we should be aware of. That is only thinking and can be realized as a conditioned dhamma, not so important, not me who thinks.You or others will ask: who cultivates conditions? Answer: accumulated conditions. Accumulations again! I find for me that so much reasoning does not help. For me it is best not to think of wanting to develop vipassana. Besides panna there are all the other perfections. Nina. 27149 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi Larry, op 19-11-2003 01:25 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "Only one citta experiencing one object through one doorway." L: I agree; that is the way experience unfolds. What about the cetasikas? > Various numbers of cetasikas arise with the one citta but we don't > experience them unless they are an object of consciousness, and then > only one at a time. Correct? N: completely correct. Dosa arises with a citta and when that has just fallen away, the dosa can be experienced, reflected on or be object of mindfulness when it has just fallen away. Or the unpleasant feeling which always accompanies aversion. And this can trigger off more cittas arising later on with aversion and unpleasant feeling about the unpleasant feeling that arose before and has just has fallen away. And so we go on and on. Nina. 27150 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, to Mike Hi Mike, Nice to hear from you. Thanks for your good wishes, Hope to hear more from you ;-)) Now I catch your eye, I remember that latent tendencies was a favorite subject for you. As I announced, I am just trying to translate from Thai, it goes very slowly. Be on the look out, and please feed back! Nina. op 19-11-2003 04:08 schreef mlnease op mlnease@y...: > Hi Sarah and Connie, > I should think you've had enough half-promises from me...! > > Best wishes all around. 27151 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. mindfulness of cohesion op 19-11-2003 01:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "A bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or > disposed, by way of the mode of materiality, THINKING thus: 'There are, > in this body, the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of > caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' > > Nina: "He reflects on the elements and is reminded to be directly aware > of whatever reality appears. Satipatthana is not thinking. In the > Satipatthanasutta the Buddha arranged the objects of mindfulness in many > different ways to help different people to be aware of the presently > arisen reality. What appeals to one person may not appeal to another > one. Does this make sense to you?" Larry:> No, It doesn't make sense. It says right there, "thinking thus". > "Thinking thus" is thinking. We could say there are different kinds of > thinking. Reflecting is thinking. N: In the Co to the Satipatthanasutta, just before the Nine Cemetery contemplations, at the end of Reflection on the modes of materiality, there is a quote from the Tiika: We have in Pali paccavekkhati, then what he reflects ending with the word *ti*, denoting end quote. This is translated as thinking(placed in the beginning of the quote)...thus and thus. Be careful, it is a matter of translation. Often in texts we find just a whole quote ending with *ti*, no mention of he thinks. But the translator puts in: he thinks... because it looks strange to have just a quote. It has not to do with just thinking about something, but, note here: with the eye of wisdom. What should be stressed is insight. Remember we discussed before (in the context of Soma) a similar word: anupassati. The object of insight is nama or rupa. Not an idea or concept. L:We are obviously using concepts in > this exercise. How else can we be mindful of the water element? N: How the body is placed or disposed. Tiika note: . The four elements are a condition for the other kinds of rupa in the body. The second stage of insight is realizing that dhammas are conditioned, not by thinking about the conditions, but by direct realization. So long as we have not reached this stage we may believe that this can only be known by thinking. It is directly realized with the eye of wisdom! Thus, the yogavacara is mindful of whatever reality appears, and who can tell of what reality, it may even be cohesion. It is not impossible, it has a characteristic. And also: cohesion is with the other three Great Elements a condition for the other rupas such as visible object, or odour. L:The idea > is to change one's view of the body from being a "nest" to being these 4 > disembodied elements. Here we definitely want to separate the elements, > as a butcher separates the parts of a cow. We are cultivating > non-attachment N: right, I am glad you return to the butcher. L: not an accurate view of reality. N: Yes, right view of the body as elements leads to detachment. L: I agree that it's not > for everyone. N: It depends on the accumulated wisdom of an individual of what dhammas he can have awareness and right understanding. No use to think, we can never know this. Nina. 27152 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: Introduction to Visuddhimagga, different headings Dear Christine and Suan, Christine, thank you very much for this post. I had read this before several times, but now seeing it on the net, it made a deep impression on me. Going straight to the heart. I add some comment and a question for Suan. op 17-11-2003 20:14 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > 6. In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight > alone, according as it is said: > > `Formations are all impermanent: > > `When he sees thus with understanding >> `And turns away from what is ill, >> `That is the path to purity' (Dh. 277). [3] >> And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is > said: >> `He is near unto nibbana >> `In whom are jhana and understanding' (Dh. 372). N: it is understanding that is stressed in all these aspects and it never is so clear to me as now. Also for those who develop jhana: jhana and understanding. Panna should never be lacking. C:>> And in some instances by deeds (kamma), etc., according as it >> is said: >> `By deeds, vision and righteousness, >> `By virtue, the sublimest life - >> `By these are mortals purified, And not by lineage and wealth' (M.iii,262) N: By deeds, vision and righteousness, vision or insight is never absent. C: And in some instances by virtue, etc., according as it is said: `He who is possessed of constant virtue, `Has understanding, and is concentrated, `Is strenuous and diligent as well, `Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' (S.i, 53). N:Has understanding. C: And in some instances by the Foundations of Mindfulness, etc., according as it is said: `Bhikkhus, this path is the only `way for the purification of beings, . . . for the realization of `nibbana, that is to say, the four Foundations of Mindfulness' (D.ii, 290); and similarly in the case of the Right Efforts, and so on. But in the answer to this question it is taught by virtue and the other two. N: Vipassana. In order to realize nibbana insight has to be developed, no matter someone develops jhana or not. As I see it, all these passages are referring to vipassana, satipatthana, the eightfold Path. At the end of the Ch on virtue, as I wrote before, all degrees of virtue are included: jhanacittas, and all stages of insight and of enlightenment. There is a verse at the end: At the end it is said: N: The teaching of insight , satipatthana, the eightfold Path, leading to the eradication of the wrong view of self is exclusively the teaching of Buddhas. Thus, whenever we read about virtue or jhana in the Suttas we have to remember this. Then understanding of the suttas will become deeper. The threepartite division we find in the Visuddhimagga and also in the suttanta is not a matter of: develop first virtue and concentration and then insight. It is a matter of arranging the material to be taught under these three headings. I am reflecting on what Suan wrote: Suan: < The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (Discourse On The Establishment Of Recollection) is used to signify (as adjectives) the four establishings of recollection (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Here, the Buddha was describing the establishment of recollection as the Only Way (for overcoming worry and grief, , and for realizing nibbaana). This type of singling out one component, namely right recollection, of the Noble Eightfold Path and equating it with the path (equating a part with the whole) is called "Teaching By Making Recollection As Head" (Satisiisena).> I think it is very important to keep this in mind, otherwise misinterpretations will arise. Virtue is in the first chapter, but concentration and understanding are included as well. We read in XIV, 1, the beginning of khandhaniddesa: the same verse that was in the beginning: When a wise man...etc. It is also said: cittasiisena niddi.t.tho: concentration has been explained under the heading of consciousness. Then: Here is dealt with the bhikkhu who has developed all jhanas and the special supernatural powers. He is destined for arahatship. He has to develop understanding of jhanacittas and even the supernatural powers, so that he will not cling to them. N: Suan, I feel it is so useful to learn more about this subject of headings. If you can add more, I appreciate it very much, Nina. 27153 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello Robert and anyone else interested in this... Robert wrote: Could you tell us more about your view. How does it relate to this sutta: Samyutta nikaya Khanda vagga XXII 94 (p.950 of Bodhi translation) "Rupa(matter, physical phenomena) that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say it exists. Feeling...perception..volitional formations..consciouness..that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change..I too say that it exists" endquote RobertK Michael It is quite clear that the teachings in the Theravada tradition expressed in the suttas of the Pali Canon affirm that the world is made up of conditioned and interdependent phenomena, and that those phenomena have no intrinsic nature that comes from their own side without depending on external causes and conditions. Therefore all those phenomena should be regarded as composing a conventional reality, something that actually exists, can be experienced, but has no ultimate existence, are utterly empty. The teachings in Theravada are divided into three branches, in addition to the suttas, described above there is also the Abhidhamma which goes deeper than the suttas and treats reality from the perspective of its ultimate components or dhammas. And Bhikhu Bodhi says that “the dhammas alone possess ultimate reality: determinate existence from their own side.” Now if something exists from its own side it means that it has something intrinsic which is independent from anything else. And if that is the case, the attributes of impermanence and no-self cannot be applied. And if you browse the Theravada literature, in particular the commentaries to the Abhidhamma and the Visudhimagga you will come across numerous references that the Abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities – paramatha dhamma - which have an intrinsic nature - svabhava. One has to understand that the Abhidhamma does not deal with ultimate realities but with just another way of presenting the conventional reality. There should be no grasping at the Abhidhamma teachings as representing true existence. That is just another expression of the eternalistic view. Now, referring to the sutta you posted, it is not difficult to understand what the Buddha is saying if you think in terms of conventional reality. From the point of view of conventional reality the world of course exists but from the point of view of ultimate reality there is no world. The Buddha is talking in terms of conventional reality. Metta Michael 27154 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45, water. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/19/2003 1:04:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > Thank you for reacting to my post, I understand that you have a difficult > time just now. My thoughts are with you and your family. ----------------------------- Thank you, Nina. Yes, this is a difficult and exhausting time. ------------------------------ > op 18-11-2003 23:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > So, Nina, are you saying that there is no vipassana bhavana? No > > volitional actions that can be taken to cultivate and increase the occurrence > > of mindfulness? > N: We are not so far apart. I read former posts of you where you said that > there is volition but not a self who takes decisions. There is ardour and > striving but no self who does. > We know this in theory, but the idea of self idea creeps in all the time > since we have not eradicated it. The old question comes back: can or should > we do something to develop vipassana? You can guess my answer: cultivate > conditions. Right theoretical understanding of the basics are the condition > and, as you agree, all the perfections. This means, that we are not inclined > to think so much about cultivating or thinking of objects we should be aware > of. That is only thinking and can be realized as a conditioned dhamma, not > so important, not me who thinks.You or others will ask: who cultivates > conditions? Answer: accumulated conditions. Accumulations again! > I find for me that so much reasoning does not help. For me it is best not to > think of wanting to develop vipassana. Besides panna there > are all the other > perfections. > Nina. =================================== You are absolutely right - we are not so far apart at all! :-) With metta, Howard 27155 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Howard: "If I may add my own personal take on this: While we are not experiencing the cetasikas as objects, we *are* experiencing them as "flavorings" of, or "background music" for, the mindstate. At least it seems to me, for example, that there can be an accompanying flavoring of sadness or of happiness throughout the process of discerning a sequence a objects." Hi Howard, The question is, can we experience a cetasika and an object at the same time? The example you give above suggests yes but I'm not sure. Also, can we experience two cetasikas at the same time? Desire and pleasant feeling, for example. Larry 27156 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Nina: "Dosa arises with a citta and when that has just fallen away, the dosa can be experienced," Hi Nina, This answers the question I was discussing with Howard. Very interesting. Larry 27157 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Jon: "Things that arise but are not directly experienced by a person do not form part of 'things as they are' of that moment for that person, so not seeing them is no shortcoming on his/her part." Hi Jon, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I have come to the conclusion that a "reasonable" understanding of reality is necessary to cultivate the path but what is reasonable is relative and dependent on accumulations. Not all differences have to be resolved. Larry 27158 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael > > Dear Michael, I'm still a bit unsure of your position. Michael: > It is quite clear that the teachings in the Theravada tradition expressed in > the suttas of the Pali Canon affirm that the world is made up of conditioned > and interdependent phenomena, " You later say: Michael "From the point of view of conventional reality the world of course exists > but from the point of view of ultimate reality there is no world. " ======== So have I got it right: When the suttas etc. talk about, say, feeling or consciousness(vinnana) , in the ultimate, true sense, there is no feeling or consciousness? So in fact there is nothing at all? The Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong teachings because they say that dhammas like feelings and consciousness are conditioned realities that arise and pass away and have the attributes of aniccca, dukkha and anatta. Whereas in fact in the ultimate sense, there is nothing anywhere, anytime, at all, ever. Is that your view? RobertK > > The teachings in Theravada are divided into three branches, in addition to > the suttas, described above there is also the Abhidhamma which goes deeper > than the suttas and treats reality from the perspective of its ultimate > components or dhammas. 27159 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi Sarah (and RobM), ---------------- S: > Hi RobM & Ken H, I've been waiting patiently for KenH to continue your interesting thread. Lost on his surfboard?? --------------- Sorry Sarah; I do have some flimsy excuses. First, I sensed that Rob was not with us; when he is not posting prolifically, he is away on business or his computer has packed it in. Second, our conversation had reached an agreeable accord -- to have continued might have 'ruined the moment.' Third, I had drafted a reply but couldn't find the right words. When I asked Rob if sila, dana and bhavana ever needed to be put off until another [more suitable] time, it was a trick question, of course. And he bounced it straight back at me. However, we do hear a lot of talk about formal Buddhist practice: when you are walking, know you are walking; when you are pouring a cup of tea, know you are pouring a cup of tea -- that sort of thing. What about; 'When you are racing to stop the baby from tipping a saucepan of boiling water over herself, know you are racing to . . . . . .' We don't hear that one. There are clearly some circumstances when formal 'Buddhist practice' is unworkable. That being so, the very idea of formal Buddhist practice is unworkable; it only reinforces the perception of a controlling self. To me, it seems particularly important that satipatthana can occur even when we are doing something completely unrelated (if you know what I mean). Admittedly, it can happen during calming, relaxing, [related], yoga exercises. However, it can also happen during surf rage or while we are being run over by a bus (both of which are very unrelated, in the conventional sense). There's more to it than that but, like I said, I'm having trouble finding the right words. (I heard on the radio yesterday: When you understand what you are saying, so will your audience.) :-) ---------------- . . . . S: > Hence we come back to understanding with detachment and no expectation, rather than a prescribed course of action. ---------------- Excellent -- no pressure, no need to do anything special. Dhamma practice is as natural as anything can be. Kind regards, Ken H PS: You wrote: ". . let's say that the anger experienced during road or surf rage happens to be the object of satipatthana . . Any idea of repeating the rage for this result would clearly be wrong view . . ." Except, of course, if there are longboarders. Someone has to tell them to keep out of the ### water! :-) 27160 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael - Hi Michael and RobertK, Thanks for this excellent discussion. I was tempted to come in earlier but didn't want to muddy the waters. Perhaps now, I can tactfully suggest (commiserate), Michael, that you have approached Theravada Dhamma study from an unfortunate angle. You have come to it with the preconception (from Mahayana? Nagarjuna?), that sabhava is synonymous with permanence, satisfactoriness and self. This must make Dhamma study almost impossible. To hold that there is nothing that is real, absolute, possessing its own intrinsic nature, is essentially to hold that nothing exists. (which is wrong view (Mahacattarika- sutta).) The two extremes, existence and non-existence, are concepts; the Middle Way is reality. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have their own sabhava (intrinsic natures). To learn these intrinsic natures is, in my humble opinion, the whole purpose of Dhamma study. Kind regards, Ken H PS: We see, yet again, RobertK's awesome ability to produce the appropriate quote: :-) > "Rupa(matter, physical phenomena) that is impermanent, suffering and > subject to change: this > the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say it > exists. Feeling...perception..volitional > formations..consciouness..that is impermanent, suffering and > subject to change..I too say that it exists" 27161 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:13pm Subject: anapanasatisutta, II b anapanasatisutta, II b In the Papancasudani, the Co to the Anapanasati sutta, there is more explanation on rupas which should be objects of awareness after the meditator has emerged from jhana. As we read at the end of the first tetrad, The Commentary explains, this is a certain body, kåya~n~natara: N: Breath is rupa, and it can be understood as such when it appears through the bodysense, at the nosetip or upperlip. It can appear as solidity or motion or temperature. It can be known as only rupa, not my breath, as non-self. *** Nina. 27162 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/19/03 9:55:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "If I may add my own personal take on this: While we are not > experiencing the cetasikas as objects, we *are* experiencing them as > "flavorings" of, or "background music" for, the mindstate. At least it > seems to me, for example, that there can be an accompanying flavoring of > sadness or of happiness throughout the process of discerning a sequence > a objects." > > Hi Howard, > > The question is, can we experience a cetasika and an object at the same > time? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I suspect yes, but not in the same way. ---------------------------------------------- The example you give above suggests yes but I'm not sure. Also,> > can we experience two cetasikas at the same time? Desire and pleasant > feeling, for example. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I general I would say yes, though desire won't initially arise except in the wake of pleasant feeling. ----------------------------------------- > > Larry > ===================== With metta Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27163 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/19/03 10:51:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Nina: "Dosa arises with a citta and when that has just fallen away, the > dosa can be experienced," > > Hi Nina, > > This answers the question I was discussing with Howard. Very > interesting. > > Larry > ========================== Seems sort of reasonable at first, except how do we know that a bunch of cetasikas arose with a given citta when only one or so of them is experienced afterwards. Also, how does one experience something which no longer exists? Also, after the fact, how does one know which was past citta that the currently experienced cetasika accompanied? Frankly, this all makes no sense to me at all. When something pleasant is experienced, that pleasantness is in the mind right then and there - it colors ones mental state, and it is part of the experience. After the fact one is aware that one was just in the midst of a pleasant experience, but that is not experiencing the pleasantness - that went before. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27164 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis in different editions Hi Connie, Michael & James, --- connie wrote: > The copy I have gives the Harvard edition numbers in [brackets], so for > what it's worth, that [328] minus {footnotes} is below. ... This led to the same place as the Nanamoli reference led us. Thanks for checking. Nothing that seems related to the comment by DK. I even checked the on-line German Vism (which Icaro pointed us to;-)), but it didn’t help. However, I found, like Icaro, that it has the entire text. Not only that, they have highlights at all the sutta reference nos that take one directly to the suttas. Nina, it may be useful for you or any other German speakers: http://www.palikanon.com/ Before I made reference to the passage (Vism V111,39) about ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment.....’ and gave the Niddesa ref. James commented, rightly, that it isn’t a sutta, but a commentary. This is correct. However, I believe the Niddesa, along with the Sutta Nipata has always been part of the Khuddaka Nikaya and is generally attributed to Sariputta (and sometimes MahaKaccayana as well). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/ As we know, there are many suttas given by these key disciples which are elaborations or commentaries on what the Buddha had said. The Honeyball Sutta (Madhupindika Sutta) is a good example. Larry, I just did a google search and keyed in: ‘dates council sutta nipata niddesa’. To my amazement the first entry was a post of mine written long ago to Erik on DSG. You could try it;-) Here’s an extract from that post: S: >As we can see in the case of just one sutta, the Satipatthana sutta or even just in one phrase like ‘ekaayano’, there is nothing simple about the understanding of the suttas. We all read the suttas with different interpretations. Some of us find it helpful to look at the commentaries by Buddhaghosa and others which have been accepted with the greatest respect by the Theravada sangha since the time they were written down. I also understand the origins of the commentaries and Abhidhamma to date from the Buddha’s own lifetime and from his Teachings and those of his great disciples such as MahaKassapa, Sariputta, MahaKaccayana, Ananda and so on who were entrusted to elaborate as appropriate. In the series on the commentary to the Vinaya, I quoted from Malalasekera (The Pali Literature of Ceylon); “When later the text of the canon came to be compiled, arranged, and edited, some of the expositions found their way into the Pitakas and were given a permanent place therein. Thus we have the Sangiti-suttanta of the Digha Nikaya, ascribed to Sariputta and forming a complete catechism of terms and passages of exegetical nature. Such was also the Sacca-vibhanga (an exposition of the four Noble Truths) of the Majjhima, which later found its proper place in the second book of the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and also the Madhu-pindika-sutta of Maha-Kaccayana, included in the Majjhima Nikaya. It sometimes happened that for a proper understanding of the text, explanations of a commentarial nature were quite essential; and in such cases the commentary was naturally incorporated into the text and formed part of the text itself.......Then there is the Niddesa, a whole book of commentary on texts now included in the Sutta-nipata; and there are passages clearly of a commentarial nature scattered throughout the Nikayas.”< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 27165 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael, You’re raising all the most controversial DSG topics in your first week on board;-) Here’s another good example that could compete with sabhava for the longest ever running thread here (homework at end of post;-)): --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael > > The Pabhassara Sutta ( AN I.49-52) can probably shed some light on this > discussion. In this sutta we read: > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming > defilements." > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming > defilements." > > The first statement seems to imply that the mind is naturally pure while > the > second seems to imply that the mind is naturally defiled. .... As I understand, pabhassara.m can only refer to bhavanga cittas and sobhana cittas. In this quote, according to the commentary, it refers to bhavanga cittas, defiled by subsequent kilesa (defilements) in the javana process. Of course, different cittas changing at great speed as usual. * Nina & Suan translated the full translation and sub-commentary and trust me, some of us have checked every reference to pandara.m (clear/pure) which can refer to every citta (and be a synonym for citta in some contexts) - clear in that it just has the characteristic to experience objects vs pabhassara.m which cannot be used to refer to all cittas. Many helpful and detailed posts have been written.** .... >The mind has > to be > pure in order to be defiled and by the same token it has to be defiled > in > order to be purified. .... Different moments. This is why ‘pure’ or ‘pure mind’ is best avoided as it leads to so much misunderstanding as you point out in another post to me. .... >If the mind were totally pure (or in other words > already had a “Buddha-nature”) it would not have to be purified and if > it > were totally defiled it would not have to be defiled again. > > So, how to solve this puzzle? ..... No ‘totally pure’ mind or ‘buddha-nature’. Even for an arahant or Buddha, there are not sobhana cittas all the time. For example, at moments of seeing or hearing, these are vipaka cittas accompanied by the universal cetasikas only. By defiled and purified, we have to understand a little about processes and when akusala and sobhana cetasikas arise as you do. Michael, if you have time (lucky you’re retired;-)), pls check some of the posts below. Let me know if this is over-kill or whether you have further points for discussion. I realize these lines hold great significance for many people coming from a Mahayana tradition. Metta, Sarah *a note by B.Bodhi at the back of his anthology from Anguttara Nikaya (p.278, note 13) which gives his own quite neat summary of the meaning of Luminous (pabhassaram) in the suttas we've discussed so much. I think this pretty much accords with what some of us have been saying and quoting. (Note AA refers to the commentary): "Luminous (pabhassaram). AA states that here "the mind" (citta) refers to the bhavanga-citta, the "life-continuum" or underlying stream of consciousness which supervenes whenever active consciousness lapses, most notably in deep sleep. The 'adventitious defilements' are greed, hatred and delusion, which appear at a stage of the cognitive process which, in later Buddhist literature, is called javana, "impulsion". AA says that the defilements do not arise simultaneously with the bhavanga, but they 'arrive' later, at the phase of javana. the fact that this expression "luminous mind" does not signify any "eternal and pure mind-essence" is evident for the preceding text, in which the mind is said to be extremely fleeting and transitory. the "uninstructed worldling" (assutavaa puthujjana) is one who lacks adequate knowledge of the dhamma and training in its practice." ** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 'Luminous Mind' check post nos: 7296, 7792, 8281, 8336, 8337, 8386, 8408, 10268, 10364, 10469, 10484, 10645, 10719, 10770, 10782, 10785, 11360, 16496, 16771 ======================================================================= 27166 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:00pm Subject: Pure again Hi again Michael (& Thomas), --- Michael Beisert wrote: > First mindfulness is a beautiful cetasika and therefore only arises in > wholesome cittas. In unwholesome cittas there is no possibility of > mindfulness being present. .... Agreed .... > Second if consciousness is ‘pure’ then the task has been done, the > burden > laid down, and there will be no more rebirths, because a purified mind > is > the mind of an arahant. .... I would only use ‘pure’ or clear to refer to pandara.m or citta and as I think it can be so misleading, I think the word pure is best avoided. In my post to Thomas, I was following his lead and used quotation marks, but it was still a mistake because of these confusions and all the connotations with the word. The arahant has no more kilesa, but I think ‘pure’ can again be misleading. As I just said, the vipaka cittas, for example, are just like they are now. No lasting ‘pureness’ or anything else. .... >I cannot comprehend a mind that has alternating > moments of purity and moments of impurity. I can understand a mind which > has > moments of kusala/akusala or wholesome/unwholesome but this is quite > different from pure/impure. .... So better not to use pure/impure because of all the connotations. We can say that for us, even when there are kusala cittas, there is still the potential and latent tendencies for akusala cittas. For the arahant, no more potential. Thanks for asking for clarification. I agree that what I wrote was easily misleading. Metta, Sarah p.s Thomas, any more comments? ===== 27167 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael (& James), --- Michael Beisert wrote: <..> >one comes across a bewildering array of options in relation > to > that main highway. Those options can be regarded as ramifications of > that > main path but they in themselves can also be called paths of practice, > why > not? .... Hmm... options might suggest choices, selections and a self. .... Although one > likes to refer to the Buddhist practice as consisting of only one path, > there are indeed a myriad of optional paths which can be found in the > suttas, and it would not be befitting to a supreme physician to be > prescribing all the same medicine to all his patients irrespective of > their > ailments. .... On the contrary, I believe the extraordinary wisdom of the Buddha was to realize the truths - the universal affliction, its cause, the final relief and the correct same medicine. These truths, as I was writing to Jeff recently, do not depend on the lack-lustre or colourful experiences which we are used to attaching such importance to. They depend on the development of panna (understanding) and the development of insights into the paramatha dhammas (ultimate realities) which are experienced at any time. Of course no two sets of experiences are identical, not even two moments of consciousness or two visible objects. However, the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta are common to all namas and rupas or dhatus (elements). The path has to be one of detachment rather than one of assigning importance to any particular phenomena experienced. You gave a good analogy of two different paths passing by the same farm to suggest there are different routes. As I don’t drive, maybe I could suggest a very long train ride instead? Same route, same journey, but different sights, sounds and experiences en route. I’m not sure how far we can take our journeys here;-) Whatever I read in the texts - suttas, abhidhamma or commentaries - I read as a description of satipatthana, the one path that leads to the eradication of an idea of self and of all other kilesa (defilements). Nina has pointed out several references in her series on anapanasati to show that even those who had attained the highest jhanas (by conditions) still had to understand the realities as namas and rupas after emerging from these jhanas and to relinquish all attachment for these states. Ultimately, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha and unsatisfactory. The path doesn’t depend on any special experiences, but on the development of sati and panna at this moment, regardless of how our lives are conditioned. In the Satipatthana sutta, as Nina just pointed out, “The Buddha arranged the objects of mindfulness in many different ways to help different people to be aware of the presently arisen reality.” We need to hear about paramattha dhammas so many times and from so many different angles before understanding really begins to develop and doubts disappear about what the Path really is, I think. I look forward to further feedback. Greatly appreciating your comments. Metta, Sarah ==== 27168 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote at the end of his post: J: > I hope I have explained myself thoroughly. If anyone other than > Sarah has actually read to the end of this post, you should be > congratulated! ;-) .... For what it’s worth, James, I thought it was a very good post indeed and you explained yourself very thoroughly. Thank you . (Of course, such praise doesn’t mean we’re in fagreement, but no one would expect that;-)) I think I’ve mostly explained my understanding just now to Michael, but I’ll add a couple more points. ..... J: > Okay, first, it has to be understood that we are discussing `The Path > of Purification' taught by Buddhaghosa, not the Noble Eightfold Path > taught by Lord Buddha. I believe that they are different in very > essential ways. Suttas and ideas concerning one cannot be applied > directly to the other. .... On the other hand, I see ‘the Path of Purification’ as being a thorough description of the Noble Eightfold Path: “The path of purification is the path to that purificaion [nibbana]; it is the means of approach that is called the path.” The same word ‘visuddhi’ is used in the Dhp quote I just used in a post to Howard: Dhp 279 "All Dhammas are without a soul, when this, with wisdom,one discerns then is one disgusted with ill; this is the path to purity (esa maggo visuddhiyaa)." (Naarada transl) ..... <...> > Now, to understand why I say that Buddhaghosa has invented these > three categories is going to be difficult because it is very subtle. > The categories of morality, concentration and insight by Buddhaghosa > are not the same three aggregates that you refer to in this sutta > from MN. This sutta details that the Noble Eightfold path can be > explained in three aggregates, namely morality, concentration, and > insight, but that the three and the one are not the same thing. As > the sutta states, "The three aggregates are not included by the Noble > eightfold Path, friend Visakha, but the Noble Eightfold Path is > included by the three aggregates." The footnote explains, "The word > khandha here has a different meaning than in the more common context > of the five aggregates affected by clinging. It here refers to a > bod of training principles, the three divisions of the Noble > Eightfold Path into virtue (sila), concentration (samadhi), and > wisdom (panna)." ..... I agree it refers to the three divisions of the Eightfold Path, though I think ‘training principles’ can be misleading which is why I had the note;-) .... > This is NOT how Buddhaghosa uses these terms. He presents these > terms in the same light that he presents the introductory values, as > sovereign, independent concepts. To Buddhagohsa, Virtue (Sila) isn't > a category for a set of training principals, it is a single entity. > The same follows for Concentration and Wisdom. ..... On the contrary, I understand that throughtout the Vism, Buddhaghosa is referring to these wholesome mental factors as constituents of the Path. Realities, not concepts. I don’t find any conflict at all, but you’re welcome to elaborate further. Perhaps I don’t understand what you mean by ‘sovereign, independent concepts’. I think that the Vism is a very difficult text and we are bound to read it according to our varied understandings. I assure you there is plenty in it that I’d be at a complete loss to explain. Metta, Sarah ===== 27169 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: In search of .....Sinhala commentaries Hi again James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Yes, I want you to list every single one of them! ;-) (just > kidding). ..... There was a momentary panic;-) ..... >No, I think this is enough. I have no reason to doubt > this scholarship, it seems pretty sound. However, this is somewhat > contradictory to what hs been discussed earlier, that the original > commentaries had fallen into disuse. If authors were using them up > into the thirteenth century, then they were pretty important. Why > did they suddenly disappear? As I have stated before, I don't > believe that Buddhaghosa threw them away or something, but I do think > that they met with foul play of some sort. Ohhh…a mystery! ;-) ..... Quite a little fun diversion off the path;-) I imagine they were less and less used. It reminds me of Jim’s search for the early Pali grammars. If he’s lucky, he’ll find one in a second-hand bookshop, but we can see how lack of demand leads to disappearance. It’s the same with some of the Pali commentaries. I remember Teng Kee was trying to track some down before. I won’t ask for your sympathetic comments - these are merely examples of how texts fall into oblivion. As we know, as the interest in the Tipitaka declines, so will all the texts disappear, starting with those least appreciated. We know what they are;-) G.Malalasekera in ‘The Pali Literature of Ceylon’ writes about the disappearance of the Sinhalese commentaries: “It is a hopleless task to inquire into what has become of the old Sinhalese commentaries; no trace of them now exists. ‘The early diffusion of Pali among the priesthood and the learned laity, and the subsequent introduction of Sanskrit literature and Sanskrit verbiage into the once pure Elu, must have so choked that language that it died out early and its memory was cherished only by the lovers of Parnassus. For all religious and philosphic purposes Pali ans Sanskritized Sinhalese began to be used from a very early period and continue to be used to this day.’ “ Metta, Sarah ======= 27170 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi Howard (Jon & Larry), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Larry) - > > My specific point is that if rupas arise (somewhere, somehow, in > some > sense) as a group, but with only one being an object of consciousness, > this is > discoverable (on evidence, perhaps retrievable from mental traces) only > by > inference. My more general point is that some of what is true in "the > world", > perhaps much, is knowable only inferentially. ..... Good points and I agree it seems this way. We’d have said the same about directly knowing namas and rupas when we first heard about them. However, we shouldn’t underestimate what developed panna (wisdom) can know. This knowledge of groups is known directly at the third stage of insight. Metta, Sarah ===== 27171 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hello to Ken H, Sarah and RobM, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sarah (and RobM), > > ---------------- > S: > Hi RobM & Ken H, > > I've been waiting patiently for KenH to continue your > interesting thread. > Lost on his surfboard?? > --------------- > > Sorry Sarah; I do have some flimsy excuses. First, I > sensed that Rob was not with us; when he is not posting > prolifically, he is away on business or his computer has > packed it in. Second, our conversation had reached an > agreeable accord -- to have continued might have 'ruined > the moment.' Third, I had drafted a reply but couldn't > find the right words. > Me too [Sarah's suggestion from a few posts ago], but the 'me too' means here that I often can't find the right words. Want to reply but can't quite get there! My excuse this time is that I'm on night shift and am about to fall asleep right here at the comput....zzzzz .....just kidding. Firstly, for KenH, I feel a tad sad that I won't be attending the upcoming w/e at Cooran; I leave those w/e feeling very uplifted. Hello to the others for me. > When I asked Rob if sila, dana and bhavana ever needed to > be put off until another [more suitable] time, it was a > trick question, of course. And he bounced it straight > back at me. However, we do hear a lot of talk about > formal Buddhist practice: when you are walking, know you > are walking; when you are pouring a cup of tea, know you > are pouring a cup of tea -- that sort of thing. What > about; 'When you are racing to stop the baby from tipping > a saucepan of boiling water over herself, know you are > racing to . . . . . .' We don't hear that one. > LOL when I read this, I think you have worded that very well. > > To me, it seems particularly important that satipatthana > can occur even when we are doing something completely > unrelated (if you know what I mean). Admittedly, it can > happen during calming, relaxing, [related], yoga > exercises. However, it can also happen during surf rage > or while we are being run over by a bus (both of which > are very unrelated, in the conventional sense). > Always a hard one for me, always wanting to 'do something' > . . . . > S: > Hence we come back to understanding with detachment > and no expectation, rather than a prescribed course of > action. > ---------------- > > Excellent -- no pressure, no need to do anything special. > Dhamma practice is as natural as anything can be. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > To Sarah: in answer to a post a few days ago, about my Q in myanmar re the 'positioning' of the khandhas. Yes, I can see why vedana and sanna are a khandha each, they do keep 'us' running around; road rage bc we rememeber what its like when there's not much traffic and we like that better; when there's no longboarders in the surf :-) cos we like it better without them, etc. Despite being on the zombie shift, I have enjoyed the current lot of posts, lots of 'meat' so to speak. To RobM: Anumodana, I suspect you spend a lot of time doing Dhamma things, teachin etc. On one of your posts you mentioned going to SriLanka, China and somewhere else - can't remember where. So much NRG!! If you ever travel this way, Cairns, Aust. please visit. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 27172 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > On one of your posts you mentioned going to > SriLanka, China and somewhere else - can't remember where. So much > NRG!! If you ever travel this way, Cairns, Aust. please visit. Sorry, you got me on that one... please translate "NRG". I will definitely let you and Christine know the next time I come to Brisbane area. I had planned a trip recently, but discovered that Christine was going to be in Myanmar at that time, so I cancelled it. Metta, Rob M :-) 27173 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi Cooranites, --- gazita2002 wrote: > Firstly, for KenH, I feel a tad sad that I won't be attending the > upcoming w/e at Cooran; I leave those w/e feeling very uplifted. ...... Oh we haven’t heard anything about the agenda for this one....(is there one at all this time??).Hope you’re all doing your preparation and have a very uplifting weekend even though you won’t have Azita’s cheery presence and zappy reminders about this moment. Metta, Sarah p.s Looking forward to the reports of discussions and all the background details - over-fed cats, noisy cockatoos, star-gazing, dietary accumulations or whatever else. ============================= 27174 From: nordwest Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Michael, Sarah / Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Dear Michael, Sarah, there is no contradiction in this. "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements." - The original mind of ours was a Pure Mind, a undefiled mind. But it became defiled by refelction upon an "external" world, which doesn't exist, so eventaully the mind created the extrenal world itself by the question "What is out there?". At the very same moment it was bound to a samsaric body, and ever since it transmigrates in illusionary states in the cycle of samsara and creates all kinds of imbalances (negative deeds) out of delusion about the world which doesn't exist in the first place. "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." - Elightenment is nothing but freeing the mind from defilements. Yet there is no attainment that leads to this Enlightenment, and there is no doer who becomes enlightened. By realizing that nothing has to be attained, when all thoughts are stopped, the mind becomes the Pure Mind again, escapes the illusion of the world, and is in its original state. Without any thought it perceives reality like it is. Thoughts are only interpretations of the reality. Gassho, Thomas Sarah wrote:Hi Michael, You’re raising all the most controversial DSG topics in your first week on board;-) Here’s another good example that could compete with sabhava for the longest ever running thread here (homework at end of post;-)): --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael > > The Pabhassara Sutta ( AN I.49-52) can probably shed some light on this > discussion. In this sutta we read: > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming > defilements." > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming > defilements." > > The first statement seems to imply that the mind is naturally pure while > the > second seems to imply that the mind is naturally defiled. .... As I understand, pabhassara.m can only refer to bhavanga cittas and sobhana cittas. In this quote, according to the commentary, it refers to bhavanga cittas, defiled by subsequent kilesa (defilements) in the javana process. Of course, different cittas changing at great speed as usual. * Nina & Suan translated the full translation and sub-commentary and trust me, some of us have checked every reference to pandara.m (clear/pure) which can refer to every citta (and be a synonym for citta in some contexts) - clear in that it just has the characteristic to experience objects vs pabhassara.m which cannot be used to refer to all cittas. Many helpful and detailed posts have been written.** .... >The mind has > to be > pure in order to be defiled and by the same token it has to be defiled > in > order to be purified. .... Different moments. This is why ‘pure’ or ‘pure mind’ is best avoided as it leads to so much misunderstanding as you point out in another post to me. .... >If the mind were totally pure (or in other words > already had a “Buddha-nature”) it would not have to be purified and if > it > were totally defiled it would not have to be defiled again. > > So, how to solve this puzzle? ..... No ‘totally pure’ mind or ‘buddha-nature’. Even for an arahant or Buddha, there are not sobhana cittas all the time. For example, at moments of seeing or hearing, these are vipaka cittas accompanied by the universal cetasikas only. By defiled and purified, we have to understand a little about processes and when akusala and sobhana cetasikas arise as you do. Michael, if you have time (lucky you’re retired;-)), pls check some of the posts below. Let me know if this is over-kill or whether you have further points for discussion. I realize these lines hold great significance for many people coming from a Mahayana tradition. Metta, Sarah *a note by B.Bodhi at the back of his anthology from Anguttara Nikaya (p.278, note 13) which gives his own quite neat summary of the meaning of Luminous (pabhassaram) in the suttas we've discussed so much. I think this pretty much accords with what some of us have been saying and quoting. (Note AA refers to the commentary): "Luminous (pabhassaram). AA states that here "the mind" (citta) refers to the bhavanga-citta, the "life-continuum" or underlying stream of consciousness which supervenes whenever active consciousness lapses, most notably in deep sleep. The 'adventitious defilements' are greed, hatred and delusion, which appear at a stage of the cognitive process which, in later Buddhist literature, is called javana, "impulsion". AA says that the defilements do not arise simultaneously with the bhavanga, but they 'arrive' later, at the phase of javana. the fact that this expression "luminous mind" does not signify any "eternal and pure mind-essence" is evident for the preceding text, in which the mind is said to be extremely fleeting and transitory. the "uninstructed worldling" (assutavaa puthujjana) is one who lacks adequate knowledge of the dhamma and training in its practice." ** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 'Luminous Mind' check post nos: 7296, 7792, 8281, 8336, 8337, 8386, 8408, 10268, 10364, 10469, 10484, 10645, 10719, 10770, 10782, 10785, 11360, 16496, 16771 ======================================================================= 27175 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi Howard > Seems sort of reasonable at first, except how do we know > that a bunch > of cetasikas arose with a given citta when only one or so of them> is > experienced afterwards. Also, how does one experience something> which no longer exists? k: Conditions - as citta A condition citta B. Citta B can take citta A as an object for cognize even though A has been past. > Also, after the fact, how does one know which was past citta that> the > currently experienced cetasika accompanied? >Frankly, this all makes no sense to me at all. When something pleasant is experienced, that pleasantness is in the mind right then and there - it colors ones mental state, and it is part> of the > experience. After the fact one is aware that one was just in the> midst of a > pleasant experience, but that is not experiencing the pleasantness - that went > before. k: That will depends on the pattananaya (conditional relations). Abdhihamma always like to make things very technnical and at times a bit complicated - 24 ways of conditional relations. Depending on so called "strength" of the citta or cetasikas, one of them will conditon the experienced that the present citta B will experience. Come to think about it, technically it is quite illogical to accept that how come one only experience a feeling when the feeling was already past. But this is possible due to conditions and its conditions relations between one past and one preceding cittas. The experience of the citta has been "transferred" to the preceding one by conditions and strength of the conditions relations. I hope I get it right also :) Cheers Kind regards Ken O 27176 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi agin, Nina & Larry - In a message dated 11/20/03 2:19:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > When something pleasant is experienced, that pleasantness is in the mind > right then and there - it colors ones mental state, and it is part of the > experience. After the fact one is aware that one was just in the midst of a > pleasant experience, but that is not experiencing the pleasantness - that > went > before. > =========================== Just a drop more. (First of all, let me say that I''m not certain on this issue - I would be willing to be persuaded contrary to my stated position if I came upon what I considered to be a sufficiently detailed, plausible, and understandable argument.) It seems to me that on any occasion there are in play the discernment of a single object, through some sense door, and, simultaneously, a good number of other functions and conditions associated with that object as concomitants to that discerning (vi~n~nana). All of the cetasikas, with varying degrees of being evident, are part of the experience we call "the current mindstate". Afterwards, we may take a memory of that mindstate or aspects of it as an object, and that later mindstate will have its own associated cetasikas, most often including duplicates of earlier ones that were part of the mindstate being remembered. (Typically, when remembering a pleasant event, for example, the current feeling is pleasantness, though other conditions such as regret might elicit sadness instead. This opposite feeling of sadness, however, is probably not in effect during the remembering, but afterwards. It seems likely to me that the memory of a pleasant experience is always pleasant, but it may be followed by regret at the thought of having found it pleasant, and that state of regret would be unpleasant.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27177 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:57am Subject: Re: Introduction to Visuddhimagga, different headings: To Nina Dear Nina How are you? Nina : I am reflecting on what Suan wrote: Suan: < The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (Discourse On The Establishment Of Recollection) is used to signify (as adjectives) the four establishings of recollection (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Here, the Buddha was describing the establishment of recollection as the Only Way (for overcoming worry and grief, , and for realizing nibbaana). This type of singling out one component, namely right recollection, of the Noble Eightfold Path and equating it with the path (equating a part with the whole) is called "Teaching By Making Recollection As Head" (Satisiisena).> Nina: I think it is very important to keep this in mind, otherwise misinterpretations will arise. Virtue is in the first chapter, but concentration and understanding are included as well. We read in XIV, 1, the beginning of khandhaniddesa: the same verse that was in the beginning: When a wise man...etc. It is also said: cittasiisena niddi.t.tho: concentration has been explained under the heading of consciousness. Then: Here is dealt with the bhikkhu who has developed all jhanas and the special supernatural powers. He is destined for arahatship. He has to develop understanding of jhanacittas and even the supernatural powers, so that he will not cling to them. Nina asked: N: Suan, I feel it is so useful to learn more about this subject of headings. If you can add more, I appreciate it very much, Suan answered: Yes, Nina, I agree with you, and I will add more. For now, I am doing some reading (of relevant Pali texts) to refute professor David Kalupahana's wrong views against Buddhaghosa in particular, and Pali commentaries in general. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine and Suan, > Christine, thank you very much for this post. I had read this before several > times, but now seeing it on the net, it made a deep impression on me. Going straight to the heart. Nina. 27178 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:46am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 32-36 32. (v) How is it [understanding] developed? Now the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the "soil" of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely, purification of virtue and purification of consciousness, are its "roots", while the five purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the "trunk". Consequently, one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about these things that are the 'soil' after he has perfected the two purifications that are the 'roots', then he can develop the five purifications that are the 'trunk'. This is in brief. The detail is as follows. 32. katha.m bhaavetabbaati ettha pana yasmaa imaaya pa~n~naaya khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa dhammaa bhuumi. siilavisuddhi ceva cittavisuddhi caati imaa dve visuddhiyo muula.m. di.t.thivisuddhi, ka"nkhaavitara.navisuddhi, maggaamagga~naa.nadassanavisuddhi, pa.tipadaa~naa.na dassana visuddhi, ~naa.nadassanavisuddhiiti imaa pa~nca visuddhiyo sariira.m. tasmaa tesu bhuumibhuutesu dhammesu uggahaparipucchaavasena ~naa.naparicaya.m katvaa muulabhuutaa dve visuddhiyo sampaadetvaa sariirabhuutaa pa~nca visuddhiyo sampaadentena bhaavetabbaa. ayamettha sa"nkhepo. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [B. DESCRIPTION OF THE FIVE AGGREGATES] 33. When it was said above 'the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the 'soil', the "aggregates" here are the five aggregates, that is to say, the materiality aggregate, the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, and the consciousness aggregate. 33. aya.m pana vitthaaro, ya.m taava vutta.m ``khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa dhammaa bhuumii''ti, ettha khandhaati pa~nca khandhaa ruupakkhandho vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sa"nkhaarakkhandho vi~n~naa.nakkhandhoti. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 34. Herein, all kinds of states whatsoever that have the characteristic of 'being molested' (ruppana) by cold, etc., taken all together should be understood as the materiality (ruupa) aggregate. 1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of 'being molested'. 2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhuuta) and (b) derived [by clinging] (upaadaaya). 34. tattha ya.m ki~nci siitaadiihi ruppanalakkha.na.m dhammajaata.m, sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa ruupakkhandhoti veditabba.m. tadeta.m ruppanalakkha.nena ekavidhampi bhuutopaadaayabhedato duvidha.m. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] 35. tattha bhuutaruupa.m catubbidha.m pathaviidhaatu aapodhaatu tejodhaatu vaayodhaatuuti. taasa.m lakkha.narasapaccupa.t.thaanaani catudhaatuvavatthaane vuttaani. pada.t.thaanato pana taa sabbaapi avasesadhaatuttayapada.t.thaanaa. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 36. (b) "Derived materiality" is of twenty-four kinds as eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible datum, sound, odour, flavour (13), feminity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; bodily intimation,verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment. 36. upaadaaruupa.m catuviisatividha.m cakkhu, sota.m, ghaana.m, jivhaa, kaayo, ruupa.m, saddo, gandho, raso, itthindriya.m, purisindriya.m, jiivitindriya.m, hadayavatthu, kaayavi~n~natti, vaciivi~n~natti, aakaasadhaatu, ruupassa lahutaa, ruupassa mudutaa , ruupassa kamma~n~nataa, ruupassa upacayo, ruupassa santati, ruupassa jarataa, ruupassa aniccataa, kaba.liikaaro aahaaroti. ------------------------- (13) 'Tangible data are omitted from this list because, not being derived matter, they are included in the primaries' (Pm.442). They are described as consisting of three of the four primaries, excluding the water (cohesion) element. 'What is the materiality of the great primaries? It is the tangible-data base and the water-element' (Dhs.663). For the whole list see Dhs. 596, in which (N.B) the heart-base does not appear. See also note 32 Ch. XV, n.15. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 27179 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42n Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/20/03 5:42:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard (Jon &Larry), > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Larry) - > > > > My specific point is that if rupas arise (somewhere, somehow, in > >some > >sense) as a group, but with only one being an object of consciousness, > >this is > >discoverable (on evidence, perhaps retrievable from mental traces) only > >by > >inference. My more general point is that some of what is true in "the > >world", > >perhaps much, is knowable only inferentially. > ..... > Good points and I agree it seems this way. We’d have said the same about > directly knowing namas and rupas when we first heard about them. However, > we shouldn’t underestimate what developed panna (wisdom) can know. This > knowledge of groups is known directly at the third stage of insight. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================== I get your point, and I won't say it's wrong, because I can't know that. However, it strikes me that this is making pa~n~na into a catch-all for everything we have a problem explaining, making it a sort of dumping bin for explanations. Now, of course, it is quite possible that in an arahant inference based on sa~n~na is replaced by pa~n~na, but, as I say, if we just assume this is so without evidence and without clear teachings to that effect in the suttas, then there is a real danger of turning pa~n~na into an escape hatch for all difficulties of explanation. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27180 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/20/03 7:10:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Seems sort of reasonable at first, except how do we know > >that a bunch >of cetasikas arose with a given citta when only one > or so of them> is >experienced afterwards. Also, how does one > experience something> which no longer exists? > > k: Conditions - as citta A condition citta B. Citta B can take > citta A as an object for cognize even though A has been past. > ======================== With no offence intended, this strikes me as nonsense. Perhaps a memory of A could be object for B, but not A itself, for at the time of B, THERE IS no A. One cannot observe what does not exist. The thinking that dhammas continue to exist in some manner throughout time is a substantialist "heresy" of the Sarvastivadins. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27181 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael RobertK, Riobert wrote So have I got it right: When the suttas etc. talk about, say, feeling or consciousness(vinnana) , in the ultimate, true sense, there is no feeling or consciousness? So in fact there is nothing at all? The Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong teachings because they say that dhammas like feelings and consciousness are conditioned realities that arise and pass away and have the attributes of aniccca, dukkha and anatta. Whereas in fact in the ultimate sense, there is nothing anywhere, anytime, at all, ever. Is that your view? Michael: Tell me, the chair you are sitting on, or the table you have in front of you, have you ever tried to find the “tableness” of that table? That elusive quality that makes it be a table? And also if you separate the table into its constituting parts, can you still find a table in those parts? Of course not. So, the table only exists because of the supportive conditions, and due to its parts, and of course also the fact that we gave it that name. So, can you really tell me that the table exists? Where did it go when you took it apart? Don’t put words in my mouth, I never said the Abhidhamma is wrong. The problems are in the commentaries which define the dhammas as ultimate reality (paramatha) with an intrinsic essence (svabhava), or in other words that they really exist. This is wrong view in accordance with the suttas. Metta Michael 27182 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:39am Subject: Vis.37, misleading translation. Hi Larry and all, This translation is misleading. It looks as if the four great elements acquire sensitivity, but that is not so. Let me analyse it. 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see. ------------------ 37. tattha ruupaabhighaataarahatappasaadalakkha.na.m da.t.thukaamataanidaanakammasamu.t.thaanabhuutappasaadalakkha.na.m vaa cakkhu, N: impact of visible object, ruupaabhighaata, readiness or fitness, arahataa, the eyesense (sensitivity), pasaada. Then at end: characteristic, lakkha.na.m. Thus we can say: sentient organ that is ready for the impact of visible data is the characteristic (of the eye). No mention here of primaries, or the four great elements, bhuutas. Pasada, literally brightness or clearness, (it is a revealer) is a derived rupa with its own specific nature or characteristic, (sa-bhava, own nature) also called pasaada-ruupa. It is sentient organ, eyesense, earsense, etc. Now the second part, and for this I needed to consult the Atthasalini, 307 (Expositor II, p. 404). Vis reads: I analyse: sourcing from desire to see, da.t.thukaamataa nidaana, originated by kamma, kammasamu.t.thaana, sentient organ depending on the primaries, bhuutappasaada. At the end: characteristic, lakkha.na.m, and eye, cakkhu. In a compound stems are used and except for the last one, no case endings are used. But bhuuta stands for the genetive case, but in the compound this ending is eliminated. This will be clear from what follows. In the Tiika it is said: catunna.m bhuutaana.m pasaado : the sensitivity of the four primaries. Now see Atthasalini: Thus we read the genetive: of the four primaries, but the meaning is: depending on. The second characteristic becomes: or its characteristic is the sentient organ depending on the primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see. As to the proximate cause: Here the primary elements arising together in a group with the sentient organ are also produced by kamma sourcing from desire to see. This is clear. Nina. 27183 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello Ken, Ken wrote: The two extremes, existence and non-existence, are concepts; the Middle Way is reality. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have their own sabhava (intrinsic natures). To learn these intrinsic natures is, in my humble opinion, the whole purpose of Dhamma study. Michael If they have an intrinsic nature it means they have an essence, that they truly exist from their own side, and that is one extreme rejected by the Buddha. Metta Michael 27184 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Sarah, Sarah wrote: Michael, if you have time (lucky you’re retired;-)), pls check some of the posts below. Let me know if this is over-kill or whether you have further points for discussion. I realize these lines hold great significance for many people coming from a Mahayana tradition. Michael: Sarah, I don't come from a Mahayana tradition, but I try to keep my eyes and ears open and not hold on too tight to my views. There was a time when I believed the Commentaries to be correct, that the Abhidhamma describes paramatha dhammas and that they have svabhava. Now, in my humble opinion, this is wrong view. I wish in my somewhat unskilful ways I can stirr some doubts in the readers of this list. Metta Michael PS: Tks for the links - I will read them carefully.:) 27185 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: Pure again Dear Sarah: Sarah:" The arahant has no more kilesa, but I think `pure' can again be > misleading. As I just said, the vipaka cittas, for example, are just like > they are now. No lasting `pureness' or anything else." ------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah! Back to Air Base!!!! My bootcamp is ending at last!!! I will post here at DSG my bootcamp photos... muddled, hanged up at ropes, eating jungle food with some reluctant comrades around me... "Scenes of a Bootcamp !!!" or " The practical uses of the Bamboo Grove´s Sutta" I always kept in my mind the Buddha´s Sermon at Bamboo grove, and the paramount ideas of Sammuit-Sacca and Paramattha-Sacca! "Hercules Squad!!! Go Go Go !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Sarah:" So better not to use pure/impure because of all the connotations. We can > say that for us, even when there are kusala cittas, there is still the > potential and latent tendencies for akusala cittas. For the arahant, no > more potential." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jungle survival is a hard road to step on! 10% of our Hercules Squad suffered up casualities... injuries ankles, slashed toes and many grrrls saying "Oh My goodness... I cannot bear such efforts..." Mike, you could to be there to raise up the grrrrrls´ fighting spirit...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" Thanks for asking for clarification. I agree that what I wrote was easily > misleading." ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gosh!!! The Hon. Kevin Sorbo could be there too to salute our Hercules Squad!!! "You all boys and girls done well at Jungle Bootcamp !!!" Mettaya, Ícaro 27186 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Sarah, How is the train ride?:) Better than my car for sure;) Sarah: I believe the extraordinary wisdom of the Buddha was to realize the truths - the universal affliction, its cause, the final relief and the correct same medicine. Michael: Agree with you up to ‘same medicine’. That is not what you read in the suttas. There were countless situations with varying medicines. One can argue that the ‘best’ medicine is the Noble Eightfold Path but that was not the cure for all that the Buddha prescribed in every situation. And each medicine can be called a path of practice. Take the perspective of the person who got the advice from the Buddha, whatever that might be, for her/him that is her/his path of practice. Sarah: These truths, as I was writing to Jeff recently, do not depend on the lack-lustre or colourful experiences which we are used to attaching such importance to. They depend on the development of panna (understanding) and the development of insights into the paramatha dhammas (ultimate realities) which are experienced at any time. Michael: I prefer to say insight into the three characteristics and not into paramatha dhamma. In my opinion, as you are probably sick of hearing by now, paramatha dhamma is a dupe. Sarah: Whatever I read in the texts - suttas, abhidhamma or commentaries - I read as a description of satipatthana, the one path that leads to the eradication of an idea of self and of all other kilesa (defilements). Michael: I also read that, and try my best to practice it. But how about the three kinds of true knowledge? Except for the destruction of the taints, there is no reference in the Satipatthana Suttas about the other two kinds of knowledge. And those 3 kinds of knowledge are the only true realization of the Buddhist path. So, who practices Satipatthana ignores the other 2 kinds of knowledge. And even so this is called a complete and only path? Metta Michael 27187 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Michael,and all, I am interestedly reading your exchanges with other members. I may be being particularly dense this morning (6.30 a.m. Brisbane time now) but can you tell me about the three kinds of true knowledge and give me a reference please? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > I also read that, and try my best to practice it. But how about the three > kinds of true knowledge? Except for the destruction of the taints, there is > no reference in the Satipatthana Suttas about the other two kinds of > knowledge. And those 3 kinds of knowledge are the only true realization of > the Buddhist path. So, who practices Satipatthana ignores the other 2 kinds > of knowledge. And even so this is called a complete and only path? > > > Metta > Michael 27188 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hello RobM, NRG = energy, some sort of slang that I've collected from somewhere. Hope your trip goes well and may you be safe and happy, Cheers, Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > wrote: > > On one of your posts you mentioned going to > > SriLanka, China and somewhere else - can't remember where. So > much > > NRG!! If you ever travel this way, Cairns, Aust. please visit. > > Sorry, you got me on that one... please translate "NRG". I will > definitely let you and Christine know the next time I come to > Brisbane area. I had planned a trip recently, but discovered that > Christine was going to be in Myanmar at that time, so I cancelled it. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 27189 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hello Sarah, Sarah: You’re raising all the most controversial DSG topics in your first week on board;-) Michael: Sorry;) But I cannot resist. Sarah: As I understand, pabhassara.m can only refer to bhavanga cittas and sobhana cittas. Michael, if you have time (lucky you’re retired;-)), pls check some of the posts below. Let me know if this is over-kill or whether you have further points for discussion. Michael: I have read some of the posts (confess not all of them) and gather that the kernel of the discussion was around the sutta commentary. I haven’t seen in the posts the following remarks by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, if it has already been mentioned sorry for the redundancy: “This statement (Luminous, monks, is the mind) has engendered a great deal of controversy over the centuries. The commentary maintains that "mind" here refers to the bhavanga-citta, the momentary mental state between periods when the mental stream adverts to objects, but this statement raises more questions than it answers. There is no reference to the bhavanga-citta or the mental stream in any of the suttas (they appear first in an Abhidhamma treatise, the Patthana); and because the commentaries compare the bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? And why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta?” BTW, the inclusion of bhavanga in the commentaries is another critique that DK makes of the commentaries for the same reasons outlined above. Metta Michael 27190 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:51pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Sukin, The discourses are the major source from which I learn the teaching of the Buddha. Reflecting on what the Buddha taught, I see that the qualities of the Buddha's teaching do lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome. These are the qualities of the Dhamma/Doctrine. My study in the Vinaya Pitaka is not extensive; however, I do see that the qualities of the code of discipline lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome. These are the qualities of the Vinaya/Discipline. What I know about the Abhidhamma Pitaka mostly comes from reading people's discussions online, writings on the internet. I also had the book _Abhidhamma Studies: Buddhist Explorations of Consciousness and Time_ by Nyanaponika Thera, which I did not finish reading. From what I read about Abhidhamma Pitaka, my impression is that the content of Abhidhamma Pitaka is mainly of an elaborate taxonomy and theory about mental phenomena. To me, it is not much different from a taxonomy in biology in its nature, except the objects the its classification. I thus tend to see the Abhidhamma Pitaka as a result of scholastic pursuit, intentionlly or unintentionally. To me, the "flavor" or "taste" of the content of the Abhidhamma Pitaka is different from that of the content in the discourses and the code of discipline, whereas "this Dhamma and Discipline has one taste, the taste of liberation."* I would say my knowledge in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is superficial. On the other hand, I have not read all the discourses and remembered all the code of discipline. But as the question James posed: Does a person need to drink the whole ocean to know that it tastes salty? ** I don't think so. You asked: how according to you does the Buddha's Teachings as taught in the Suttas, "lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome"? Particularly if you could, apply the same question to the practice of formal meditation! How does formal meditation lead to dispassion etc.? My response is that: Reflect on the Buddha's teaching and put the Buddha's instruction into practice. Peace, Victor * Udana V.5 Uposatha Sutta The Observance Day http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5- 05a.html ** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26935 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 27191 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Christine and Michael, Maybe the density extends along the east coast, Chris, bc I was wondering what these 3 are too. Maybe its that 'dog' thing!!!!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Michael,and all, > > I am interestedly reading your exchanges with other members. I may > be being particularly dense this morning (6.30 a.m. Brisbane time > now) but can you tell me about the three kinds of true knowledge and > give me a reference please? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > > I also read that, and try my best to practice it. But how about the > three > > kinds of true knowledge? Except for the destruction of the taints, > there is > > no reference in the Satipatthana Suttas about the other two kinds > of > > knowledge. And those 3 kinds of knowledge are the only true > realization of > > the Buddhist path. So, who practices Satipatthana ignores the other > 2 kinds > > of knowledge. And even so this is called a complete and only path? > > > > > > Metta > > Michael For MIchael; you wrote: if they have an intrinsic nature it means they have an essence, that they truly exist from their own side, and that is one extreme rejected by the Buddha. Are you saying that they [paramatta dhammas] do not exist? If I've misinterperated you, forgive me, bc I'm unclear as to what you are suggesting. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 27192 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:16pm Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi Sarah, Could you provide some references regarding clinging to wholesome states? Did the Buddha ever address the problem of clinging to wholesome states, if there is such problem at all? As I understand it, the Buddha explained clinging/sustenance as the following: "And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging. I don't see that the Buddha taught in the following amount to teaching clinging to the wholesome states: "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort. I also don't see what the Buddha said in the following is about clinging to renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm- pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. "Now, there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. So, exactly what do you mean by clinging to wholesome states? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken O, [snip] > Sarah > > p.s I agree with your comment to Victor about attachment - clinging to > anything, even to calm or wisdom or other wholesome states. Hence, tanha > (craving) is the cause of suffering. (Only exceptions: nibbana and > lokuttara cittas cannot be objects of attachment) 27193 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:00am Subject: RE: New member, Jeff Brooks A defense of Ecstatic Buddhism Please excuse my delay in replying, I fully expected to get back on to each and every Yahoo group that I posted my brief spiritual bio to, but I have had over 150 email messages on most days since I post that biography a week ago. And, I have endeavor to give each thoughtful message sent to me a personal and thoughtful response. Therefore, I have literally spent every moment from roughly 6 AM, after my morning meditation, to 9 PM before my evening meditation, reading and responding to these very thoughtful and tender responses to my simple contemplative biography. I do however take breaks for rest and meals, as well as a mid-day break to lead a meditation sit with my tiny sangha here in Tucson. Many apologies to all of you if my message last week caused any difficulties for anyone. I do certainly seek not to harm, but only to benefit all beings. I have found it is my work to validate, contextualize, authenticate through canonical support, and to generally support the ecstatic contemplative, who are sincere seekers, in their journey. It is interesting to note that most of the responses have been from ecstatic contemplatives who feel they either have had no support for their practice, or they have been dismissed by their meditation teachers and spiritual guides due to their various charismatic manifestations. I regret that a few small flaws in my writing implied that there was not ample and excellent support in many religions and traditions of the world. And, there is of course excellent support for the ecstatic contemplative here on Yahoo as well. And, no doubt that excellent support is most probably available on this very Yahoo list. I posted to this list because I felt it fit in a general way within the context of meditation and the various charismatic manifestations that can occur to some contemplatives. Perhaps 98% of the responses I have received to my simple bio have been positive. And, they have come from contemplatives in almost every tradition and religion. Remarkably there have been a small number of misguided people who claim to be teachers of the Buddha dhamma. I too often find I am being accused of "arhat practice" as though it is some kind of dirty word or misguided practice. My practice is "Arahant practice" as was the historic Buddha's, he was after all called "an Arahant, a fully enlightened being," by his students. Arahant (Pali) practice is intent on enlightenment (nibbana, Pali). If you read the original Buddhist canon of literature, which is now available in English, you may find that the historic Buddha was a Bodhisatta (Bodhisattva, Sanskrit) who attained nibbana (nirvana, Sanskrit) and became a fully enlightened Arahant (arhat Sanskrit). Therefore he taught "Arahant practice." I have found there is a remarkable degree of misinformation prevalent within the Buddhist community (sangha). And, I believe its origin is in too many Buddhist teachers who do not read the teachings of the Historic Buddha, but rely too heavily on latter-day commentary and apocrypha for their beliefs and practices. The Pali Canon is reputed to be a record of the spoken word of the historic Buddha, Sidharta Gotama, who was a native speaker of the Pali language. The Pali Canon is at least the oldest extant document of the words of the Buddha in the language he spoke. It was first written during the reign of King Ashoka in 250 BCE. Therefore no other canon of Buddhist literature has a better claim of authenticity. It may also be worth pointing out that most of the other canons of Buddhist literature are based on first century CE Sanskrit translations of the original Pali canon. It is also worth noting that some of the other Buddhist canons have additions that can only be of questionable origin, since these additions are not in the original Pali canon. Reading the Pali canon is an excellent way to come to understand the central concepts of the teachings of the historic Buddha. It is available in many languages including English. While the canon has a reputation for being a weighty tome, I have found it is readable and accessible. Much of it is even online at the websites listed below. In defense of my position that Buddhism was originally an ecstatic contemplative tradition, do consider reading the suttas that outline the Buddha's original discourses on meditation. There you will find Sidharta Gotama specifically instructed his students in what he called the jhanas, or eight ecstatic states of absorption. It is these ecstatic states that I have arrived at, and which are listed in my personal statement. I have received a few generous offers to become someone's disciple. It might be worth pointing out, based on my years of practice and my subjective experiences, that I am really not seeking guidance. I am however interested in developing an international ecumenical dialog on and about the ecstatic experience and practice. I am also interested in developing a community of peers who honor, respect, and validate each other's subjective experiences. So, those who are interested in participating as peers in that venture, then please join the Jhana Support Group where that dialog is going on today.. Jhana Support Group A support group for ecstatic contemplatives website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Best regards, Jeff Brooks The Buddha's three discourses on meditation and the ecstatic states (jhanas) are available in these suttas at these URLs: Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjthis onea/mn118.html Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN. 22) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html Do consider examining the Buddha's original teachings at the following websites: S O U R C E S for the Tipitaka, P A L I Canon &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& ACCESS TO INSIGHT http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/ The Tipitaka and other valuable Pali sources http://www.palikanon.com/english/english_web.htm The PALI TEXT SOCIETY http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/ METTANET - LANKA http://www.metta.lk/ The various volumes of the Pali Canon in English translation and where they can be purchased, or downloaded off the web for free are at these URLs: Digha Nikaya, DN (The Long Discourses). Translation by Maurice Walshe. Wisdom/Buddhist Publication Society BPS. 1996: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=251033 Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Majjhima Nikaya, MN (The Middle Length Discourses). Translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli. Ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi. Wisdom/Buddhist Publication Society BPS http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=25072X Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html Samyutta Nikaya, SN (The Connected Discourses of the Buddha) Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Wisdom Publications. Or ATI www: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=948507 Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Anguttara Nikaya, AN (The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha) Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Nyanaponika Thera. Or ATI www: Altamira Press, 1997 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=204050 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=132552 Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html 27194 From: nordwest Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Pure again Dear Sarah, I really find the word pure perfectly right. It ia an easy english word to use. What is this wholesome or unwholesome? What is this cittas and critters? - I am joking, as you may imagine. Please let me exaplin why "pure" is such a useful word, it arises from this understanding: Imagine the mind as a mirror in which reality is reflected. Like this you can understand how mind works. It is not seeing things directly, but contemplating things, or refecting upon things. Originally the mind was a Pure Mind, this means it refelcted without any thought this what is, and all that is, without limitations in space and time. This Pure Mind is nothing elese but Pure Consciousness which can't be located to a place or part of the universe. If we locate Buddhas etc. where they live, this is only a helpful means for the people who can't understand, that a Buddha is one with all that is, and his only limitations is the individual path of pureness of consciousness, this works in connection with the original bodhisattva vows, but not only. So we have been Buddhas, each of us, very long time ago, we were all with one, Pure Minds. Then something interesting happened: we questioned one thought, "What is out side of this?" or "What is reality?" and from this thought we got captured by illusion, the mind limitated itself to an limited object, and was bound to live in a body in samsara, imprisoned by its own limitatins and wrong views. This thoughts made the mind impure. It was defiled, and the pure reflection of waht is, was obscured by thoughts. The longer we wandered in samsara, the more bad habits we created, to more defilements we accumulated, andnow we end up with a heap of ideas about a world we think was created by evolution. But volution is a creation of our mind, a complexation of this was is. The universe in it's original nature has no changed even a little bit. It is still the same, we are only dreaming evolutions and progress. Time to wake up from this waking dream. The more we become enlightened, the more the clouds (or dirt) which obscure the mind fade away... a gradula process of realizatins. There are innumerbale realizations, many levels! The Mind becomes original again by this, it becomes the Pure Mind, the Pure Consciousness again, but is still imprisoned by the idea that it is this very life, living in this universe with a earth and a moon and a sun, with telephones, and dinosaurs. We really believe this bullshit we created ourselves, excuse this word, but it really fits best. It's entierely bullshit, thisis what all science work is about. We cure diseases like cancer, because we have made it up by mind in the first place. So is HIV, so is the atomic bomb, and the flight to the moon. Dreams, nothing but dreams. Time to wake up. HOW!? The thinking has to stop! This is the simple formula to enlightenment. The gaol of the human existence is one only: to make the thinking stop, and return to the natural state of non-thinking, where everything is known, where the mind is pure and one with all that is. You don't have to become a hermit, you can do this right here. Look at your hand, contemplate it.. the fingers, the fingernails, the veins, the hair, the rippels and the form ... is this you? Do you really think, you are such a strange being, destined to die? When looking in the mirror, that you might have a big laugh, when you realize this dream. The entire world becomes a funny place, knowing that its all ade up by yourself. The power of thoughts? NO, the weakness of thoughts! The reality is something completely different, what you perceive is only a temporary state of reality and has nothing to do with this what is. Gassho, Thomas Sarah wrote: So better not to use pure/impure because of all the connotations. We can say that for us, even when there are kusala cittas, there is still the potential and latent tendencies for akusala cittas. For the arahant, no more potential. Thanks for asking for clarification. I agree that what I wrote was easily misleading. Metta, Sarah p.s Thomas, any more comments? ===== 27195 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:41pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Azita, Where did you get the idea that "there is no 'me' to do anything anyway"? Where did you get the idea that any attempt to have more understanding, is just 'me' wanting, lobha again? I don't think the Buddha taught those ideas. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Hello Sukin and Victor, that there is no 'me' to do anything > anyway. Any attempt to have more understanding, is just 'me' > wanting, lobha again. [snip] 27196 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Pure again Hi Thomas, Once one realizes the unbinding, the cessation of dukkha and becomes another arahant, the birth is the last birth and there is no more becoming for one. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Dear Sarah, I really find the word pure perfectly right. It ia an [snip] > So we have been Buddhas, each of us, very long time ago, we were [snip] 27197 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote at the end of his post: > > > > I think I've mostly explained my understanding just now to Michael, but > I'll add a couple more points. James: I read the post. Actually, I agree with you on this point…I know, that's probably a shocker! ;-)))(And I'm not sure if Michael's point isn't simply a semantic one). I do not believe that a person can develop any single part of the Eightfold Path to fruition, to nibbana, alone. All of them must be developed in tandem. Granted, they may not all be developed to the same degree, but there cannot be any deficiencies. Therefore, I agree with you, there is only one path. But remember, I wasn't explaining my position; I was explaining Buddhaghosa's. He is the one who wrote that each of those values, developed ALONE, will lead to nibbana. I don't agree with him. I think he has misinterpreted those suttas he quotes. Just because those suttas are emphasizing a single value, that doesn't mean that the others are excluded; they are still there, just unstated. If you have any disputes, it is with Buddhaghosa, not with me ;-). > ..... On the contrary, I understand that throughtout the Vism, Buddhaghosa is > referring to these wholesome mental factors as constituents of the Path. > Realities, not concepts. I don't find any conflict at all, but you're > welcome to elaborate further. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by > `sovereign, independent concepts'. James: Actually, this is DK's argument, it isn't mine. It does appear to be valid, from what I have read so far, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I support it wholeheartedly. I was simply trying to rephrase it in a simplified manner. I guess I wasn't too successful. ;-). As soon as Michael quotes more from DK's chapter, we can look at this issue more (Nina wants Michael to quote less, but I I would actually like him to quote more…an argument of this sort cannot be well understood in piecemeal.) > > I think that the Vism is a very difficult text and we are bound to read it > according to our varied understandings. I assure you there is plenty in it > that I'd be at a complete loss to explain. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== Metta, James 27198 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Pure again Hi, Thomas - In a message dated 11/20/03 6:42:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tnordwest@y... writes: > So we have been Buddhas, each of us, very long time ago, we were all with > one, Pure Minds. Then something interesting happened: we questioned one > thought, "What is out side of this?" or "What is reality?" and from this thought we > got captured by illusion, the mind limitated itself to an limited object, > and was bound to live in a body in samsara, imprisoned by its own limitatins > and wrong views. ========================== Please forgive me, but I think you are very much in error in this. No Buddha ever became a worldling. The fall from grace is a Judeo-Christian story, not a Buddhist one. There is no beginning to ignorance, but there can be an ending. I think the position you are putting forward here is not Buddhist, neither Theravadin nor Mahayanist. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27199 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > Michael: > Sarah, I don't come from a Mahayana tradition, but I try to keep my eyes and > ears open and not hold on too tight to my views. There was a time when I > believed the Commentaries to be correct, that the Abhidhamma describes > paramatha dhammas and that they have svabhava. Now, in my humble opinion, > this is wrong view. I wish in my somewhat unskilful ways I can stirr some > doubts in the readers of this list. James: For what its worth, I agree with you. But, you're preaching to the choir in my case! ;-) > > Metta > Michael Metta, James