27800 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Links to questions about nibbana Hi Herman, --- Egberdina wrote: > I found the rest heavy going, but will persevere with it. No need to > type a question and answer each day on my account, some of your > effort would get more lost than it needs to. I could possibly digest > one a week?!? > > Thanks all the same. .... ;-) Too slow! Anyway, you can spend a week digesting each - like StarCroc, grab all the food from the various traps and take it off for a week's digestion and then resurface again;-) Only 3 more - I'll probably do them tomorrow so as not to forget. Don't worry, you don't need to feel indebted or enlightened;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27801 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 5:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Michael, I appreciate all your posts and considerations. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > Lets assume that two individuals are going to perform the exact same > task, > dropping a bomb, and both at the moment of performing the task have > exactly > the same consciousness and mental factors present, and they are aware of > the > possible consequences and have the intention to kill. In the first case > no > one is hurt because the bomb misses the target, in the second countless > people die. In both cases they are unaware of the consequences of their > action. In accordance to what has been discussed in the list, the kamma > created by both would be exactly the same because it only depends on > their > mind states. .... No, because only the second would be an act of killing and akusala kamma patha. As Rob M listed in another post,in order for it to be an act of killing there have to be five factors including ‘consquential death’. Of course, this raises many qus, some of which are addressed in Abhidhamma texts, but many of which are unconjecturables. RobM or others may add more;-) There could be many degrees of intention involved and many kinds of injury and death caused. Many conditions at work all the time. ..... >Well this is what is nagging me. I think this is not > correct. I > don’t know exactly why, but my suspicion is because it views each > individual > as separate and isolated and only matters what happens within each > consciousness stream, it ignores the interconnection with all other > beings/phenomena, etc. ..... Does this clarify? .... > > If there are any related past messages I would appreciate if you could > point > me to them. ..... There are a few posts under killing and meat-eating in UP, but I don’t think this particular aspect has been addressed before. I’ll be glad to hear your further comments and those of others. I was reading in the paper today about a man who had been charged with ‘grievous bodily harm’ for throwing acid at an employer a few weeks back. The employer suffered complications in hospital and now the man has had the charge upgraded to murder. Hmmm.. Metta, Sarah ====== 27802 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hi Howard, A friend of mine was flying to NY today, so I was able to warn her about the weather;-) No wonder you folks spend a lot of time indoors. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I believe that "latent/dormant tendencies" rise and fall all the > time, > with subsequent tendencies being conditioned by previous ones in much > the > same way as the last mindstate in a "life" conditions the first > mindstate of the > next, and in much the same way as the motion of one billiard ball > conditions > the moving af another. It is not a matter of "the same tendency" > continuing, > though subsequent tendencies are often little different in form/pattern > from > prior ones. (But I agree that the terminology is off-putting, being > suggestive of > substantiality and permananence.) .... This sounded pretty good to me. I also liked a post you wrote in the last month, also using the billiard ball analogy but taking it a little further. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m22461.html I know it must be most frustrating at times, but we all appreciate your dialogues with Nina, Jon and others. Many lurkers will share your ambivalent feelings towards the Abhidhamma;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 27803 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 6:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Anyway there is no need to purposedly meet a circumstance bc > circumstance always come to us, one good example is that our senses > are always bombarded by different objects, they are the conditions > for our condition to train ourselves. There is no need to go and do > something as it is around us every minute of our waking moments. > When we think we need to do something is just bc we are not mindful > of the moment, this should a state that our mind is full of mental > restlessness which is more of moha rather than panna. > ================= Dear KenO,] Yes, and then restlessness and moha can be known at that time: and that is yoniso -manisikara. And so we can settle in to the present moment more and more instead of looking for something different or wishing we had more understanding . Robertk 27804 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 8:23am Subject: Re: Anusaya Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > RobM, I have a few gems for you, I hope;-) You started off by mentioning > that the term `pakatupanissaya' only occurs in the Patthana and you were > looking for expressions of the inter-connectedness of pakatupanissaya and > anusaya elsewhere. As I mentioned before, I think we read about this > frequently in the suttas, albeit in other terms and albeit with an > understanding of Abhidhamma necessary to appreciate the suttas in > question. > > Ken O introduced one good example in a discussion thread on `practice' and > control/lack of control with Howard. He wrote: > > >Just the chinese sayings wu wei er wei (no action yet there is > action) literal translation. I would to share this interesting sutta > paragraph with you > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html > ===== Thanks for pointing out this Sutta. I liked it (and BB's notes as well). I see two complementary dimensions to the Buddha's teachings; ethical and soterilolocial. I am coming the conclusion that pakatupanissaya is core to the ethical dimension (though I would feel more comfortable if there were at least one Sutta dedicated to this specific topic). I suspect that pakatupanissaya is also key to paticcasamuppada, though I haven't explored this yet. When I do get around to this exploration, this Sutta will come in handy. Metta, Rob M :-) 27805 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 9:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hello Sarah, I never said before and should have, that I appreciate and admire your effort and pacience in providing so many answers and directions. Sarah: No, because only the second would be an act of killing and akusala kamma patha. As Rob M listed in another post,in order for it to be an act of killing there have to be five factors including ‘consquential death’. Michael: OK, I missed that. So, the 'consequential death' is important, then maybe one could infere that the consequential death of many would produce a more potent kamma that only one death. Would this interpretation be acceptable? Metta Michael 27806 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 10:09am Subject: anapanasati 5 c anapanasati 5 c Sarah: We sometimes discuss the value of the abhidhamma when reading suttas and the following commentary note to the Satipatthana Sutta is one example (amongst many far more detailed ones) of this, followed by a reference to objects visual’ as requested;-) (p.41): ***** "Consciousness and mental objects, too, should be contemplated upon by way of the diversity of the division of object (arammana], dominance [adhipati], conascence [sahajata], plane [bhumi], causal action [kamma], result [vipaka], non-causative functional process [kriya], and so forth [adi], beginning with impermanence [aniccadinam anupassananam vesena] and by way of the division of consciousness that is with passion and so forth come down in the portion of analytical exposition [niddesavare agatasaragadi bhedañca vasena]. Or the divisions of object... non-causative functional process and so forth. Contemplation should be done by way of the division of the blue and so forth pertaining to the variety of objects visual and so forth [rupadi arammana nanattassa niladi tabbhedassa); ..." ***** END QUOTE 1 27807 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 47, 48, seven layers. Hi Larry, op 08-12-2003 01:43 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers > of cotton." > What's this all about? I assume "it" refers to eye sensitivity. N: Sneham/iva satta akkhi/pa.talaani /byaapetvaa oil/like /seven/eye/ layers/ having pervaded/ Just like an oily liquid it (the eyesense) pervades the seven layers of the eye. I compared with the paralel Expositor text (II, Ch III, p. 403), yes, it is the eye-sensitivity. Please note: all this is not medical science, it is a simile!!! See the word -iva after sneham (oil): just like oil. Iva is like viya: used for a simile. The Expositor says, That is why it is said: Eyesense is a hidden reality, you cannot touch it. But it is there, arising and falling away. You know it is there, otherwise you could not see. (an unobserved rupa that is real all the same!) As you will see in the Tika: Why here the seven layers? Perhaps to indicate that what we take for eye are so many groups of rupa arising and falling away. The seven layers are not the eyesense, but closely connected with it, eyesense cannot arise in isolation. It has to be supported by other groups of rupa produced by citta, heat or nutrition. You had a ? mark after louse head, why? It is only a simile. In fact, it is even smaller. The Tika explains: Note: its procedure: at this very, very small point there is a lot going on: when it is the right time for kamma to produce seeing, there is eyesense that is ready to receive visible object, so that there can be seeing. 48:The General of the Dhamma, this is Sariputta. Nina. P.S. Please note my footnotes in the translation, I hope they help for clarifying difficult points. The post is too long, but by breaking it up, the thread gets lost. People can skip the wordlist. Skroll down to the end for just English and footnotes. 27808 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 10:09am Subject: Tiika.Vis.47,48 Vis. text: 47. 1. There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose [respective] functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a warrior prince is by the four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, dressing, and fanning. It is consolidatd by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is furnished with colour, odour, flavour, etc. (see Ch. XVIII, par. 5); it is the size of a mere louse's head; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of the cognitive series]. [446] 48. And this is said by the General of the Dhamma: 'The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object is small and it is subtle too, no bigger than a louse's head'. -------------------- Pali: Vis. 47. cakkhu cettha yadeta.m loke niilapakhumasamaaki.n.naka.nhasukkama.n.dalavicitta.m niiluppaladalasannibha.m cakkhuuti vuccati. tassa sasambhaaracakkhuno setama.n.dalaparikkhittassa ka.nhama.n.dalassa majjhe abhimukhe .thitaana.m sariirasa.n.thaanuppattipadese sattasu picupa.talesu aasittatela.m picupa.talaani viya satta akkhipa.talaanibyaapetvaa dhaara.nanhaapanama.n.danabiijanakiccaahi catuuhi dhaatiihi khattiyakumaaro viya sandhaara.nabandhanaparipaacanasamudiira.nakiccaahi catuuhi dhaatuuhi katuupakaara.m utucittaahaarehi upatthambhiyamaana.m aayunaa anupaaliyamaana.m va.n.nagandharasaadiihi parivuta.m pamaa.nato uukaasiramatta.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadiina.m yathaaraha.m vatthudvaarabhaava.m saadhayamaana.m ti.t.thati. 48. vuttampi ceta.m dhammasenaapatinaa -- ``yena cakkhupasaadena, ruupaani manupassati. paritta.m sukhuma.m eta.m, uukaasirasamuupama''nti.. Words: saadheti (saadhayamana): to accomplish. byatireka: what is left, addition. visesa: distinction, difference. joteti: to explain Sariira: body sa.n.thaana (n): shape desa, padesa: location. ka.nha: black ma.n.dala (n): circle pa.tikkhipati : reject. sneha (sunehi): oily liquid akkhi : eye pa.tala (n): lining, film, membrane byaapeti (vyaapeti): pervade aayu: life va.n.na: colour anupaaleti: maintain parivaareti: surround santati :continuity samu.t.thaapaka: originating upatthambheti: to support kalaapa: group Pamaa.na (n): size uuka: louse sira (m,n): head matta: of the size of aavasaanaa: abode samavasarati : to meet Tiika: 47, 48: Pubbe lakkha.naadinaa vibhaavitampi cakkhu.m .thita.t.thaanaadito vibhaavetu.m ³cakkhu cetthaa²ti-aadi aaraddha.m. He said first, ³and there is here an eye², in order to explain the eye as standing in its location and so on, after he had also before explained about its characteristic and so on. Tattha cakkhu saadhayamaana.m ti.t.thatiiti sambandho. Here the connection is, as said, the eye stands accomplishing (its functions of base and door). Ca-kaaro byatirekattho, tenassa vuccamaanameva visesa.m joteti. By the word ³and² there is an additional meaning, he explains its diversity by saying this. Etthaati etesu yathaaniddi.t.thesu pa~ncasu upaadaaruupesu. As to the word here, this means with these five derived material phenomena as explained *. ²Sariirasa.n.thaanuppattidese²ti etena avasesa.m ka.nhama.n.dala.m pa.tikkhipati. As to the expression, the point where the images of the bodies appear, by this he rejects that the black circle is remaining. Snehamiva satta akkhipa.talaani byaapetvaa .thitaaheva attano nissayabhuutaahi catuuhi dhaatuuhi katuupakaara.m Just like an oily liquid it (the eyesense) pervades the seven layers of the eye, and it stands by itself, assisted by the four great elements on which it depends, tannissiteheva aayuva.n.naadiihi anupaalita.m parivaarita.m and it remains, maintained and protected by life, colour, and so on, tisantatiruupasamu.t.thaapakehi utucittaahaarehi upatthambhiyamaana.m ti.t.thati. supported by the three origination factors in the continuity of materiality, that are heat, consciousness and nutrition. Satta-akkhipa.talabyaapanavacaneneva cakkhussa anekakalaapagatabhaava.m dasseti. By the expression, pervading the seven layers of the eye, he teaches that the eye is connected with several groups of materiality. Pamaa.nato uukaasiramattanti uukaasiramatte padese pavattanato vutta.m. As to the expression, with the seize of a louse head, this was said with regard to its procedure at a point that has only the seize of a louse head. Cakkhuvi~n~naa.nassa vatthubhaava.m nissayabhaavato aavajjanasampa.ticchanaadiina.m tadaaramma.naavasaanaana.m dvaarabhaava.m samavasara.t.thaanato. Its nature is being a base for seeing-consciousness by way of being its dependence, and being a doorway (also) for the adverting-consciousness, the receiving-consciousness and so on, and the retention that dwell (on the object) in the sense of association **. Ta.m paneta.m cakkhu adhi.t.thaanabhedato, Thus this is the eye as to its fixed classification, tatthaapi pacceka.m anekakalaapagatabhaavato and there, taking part in several groups of materiality, it stands by itself, anekampi samaana.m saama~n~naniddesena aavajjanaaya ekattaa, and though it is also diverse in the general explanation, it is one in adverting, ekasmi.m kha.ne ekasseva ca kiccakarattaa eka.m katvaa vutta.m. and since it performs one function at one moment, it is said to be one. Evampi bahuusu kathamekasseva kiccakaratta.m. Though it is also diverse, how is it only one in the performing of its function? Ya.m tattha visada.m hutvaa ³ruupaabhighaataaraha.m², ta.m vi~n~naa.nassa nissayo hotiiti gahetabba.m. As he has made clear, saying, ³ready for impact of visible object², it should be taken as being thus the support for consciousness. Pho.t.thabbaviseso viya kaayavi~n~naa.nassa aaramma.nabhaave. Even as the variety of what is tangible is the object for body-consciousness ***. 48. Manupassatiiti ma-kaaro padasandhikaro, atha vaa manuuti macco. As to the expression, he sees (a visible object), the prefix ³ma² (of manupassati) is an euphonic combination, or, ³manu² means man. ***** Tiika English: He said first, ³and there is here an eye², in order to explain the eye as standing in its location and so on, after he had also before explained about its characteristic and so on. Here the connection is, as said, the eye stands accomplishing (its functions of base and door). By the word ³and² there is an additional meaning, he explains its diversity by saying this. As to the word here, this means with these five derived material phenomena as explained *. As to the expression, the point where the images of the bodies appear, by this he rejects that the black circle is remaining. Just like an oily liquid it (the eyesense) pervades the seven layers of the eye, and it stands by itself, assisted by the four great elements on which it depends, and it remains, maintained and protected by life, colour, and so on, supported by the three origination factors in the continuity of materiality, that are heat, consciousness and nutrition. By the expression, pervading the seven layers of the eye, he teaches that the eye is connected with several groups of materiality. As to the expression, with the seize of a louse head, this was said with regard to its procedure at a point that has only the seize of a louse head. Its nature is being a base for seeing-consciousness by way of being its dependence, and being a doorway (also) for the adverting-consciousness, the receiving-consciousness and so on, and the retention that dwell (on the object) in the sense of association **. Thus this is the eye as to its fixed classification, and there, taking part in several groups of materiality, it stands by itself, and though it is also diverse in the general explanation, it is one in adverting, and since it performs one function at one moment, it is said to be one. Though it is also diverse, how is it only one in the performing of its function? As he has made clear, saying, ³ready for impact of visible object², it should be taken as being thus the support for consciousness. Even as the variety of what is tangible is the object for body-consciousness ***. 48: As to the expression, he sees (a visible object), the prefix ³ma² (of manupassati) is an euphonic combination, or, ³manu² means man. **** _______ *The eyedecad consists of ten rupas in one group: the four great elements, the eyesense, life-faculty, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. Thus, apart from eyesense there are five other derived ruupas. ** Eyesense is base and doorway for seeing-consciousness, and it is doorway for the other cittas in that process. *** The body sensitivity is all over the body, but only at one point at a time there is impingement of tangible object, and only that point is base and doorway for body-consciousness. It is diverse, but also one under the aspect of receiving the impact of tangible object. The eye consists of many groups of rupa, but only one rupa in a group is eyesense, arising and falling away. Kamma keeps on producing it. Also when there is no impingement of visible object, the eyedecad is arising and falling away. It is ready or fit for impact of visible object, and then it is the doorway for the eye-door process cittas, and also the base for seeing-consciousness. The eye-decad is produced by kamma, and it is supported by other groups of rupa produced by citta, heat and nutrition, but in the latter groups there is no eyesense and no life faculty. Only kamma can produce those. ****** Nina. 27809 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 11:14am Subject: Re: Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James, > Thank you for your the letter that you gave me. I have > some questions to ask you: > 1 Each time when you write you name, why you always > put "Metta, James"? Is "metta" part of you name? > 2 How old are you? > 3 Do you usually have time to play or exercise? > 4 Have you ever been to a temple in some places? > I will be waiting for your answer. > > > Janet Hi Star Kid Janet! You're very welcome for the letter. I see you have some more questions so let me get to them. 1 Each time when you write you name, why you always put "Metta, James"? Is "metta" part of you name? Answer: No, metta is a Pali word that means `loving kindness'. My name is James Mitchell. 2 How old are you? Answer: I am 34. I will be 35 on May 4th. My Zodiac sign is Taurus and my favorite color is blue…oh, you didn't ask all of that did you?? ;-) 3 Do you usually have time to play or exercise? Answer: Yes, I belong to a gym where I work out. It is a small gym here in Cairo but it suits me. I don't play sports or anything like that. Sports really bore me. 4 Have you ever been to a temple in some places? Answer: Yes, I have been to temples in different places. I have been to Buddhist temples in Arizona, California, and Thailand. Maybe Mrs. Abbott can show you a picture of me at a Buddhist temple in Los Angeles, California. It is in the members photos section. Hope these answer your questions. Take care and study hard in school! Metta, James 27810 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 11:24am Subject: Re: The Buddha Hi Star Kid Sandy! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thankyou for the brilliant reply! James: Brilliant?! That must be why I like writing to you Star Kids, you are so easy to please! ;-) > > What did the Buddha exactly seek for? James: He was seeking the answer to life's suffering. He wanted to know why we are born only to grow old, sick, and then die--and then be reborn again, always suffering throughout. He wanted to know if there was any way to stop this process. Thankfully for everyone, he did find a way...and he taught it to those who wanted to know. > > Have a good weekend! James: You too! :-) > > Metta, > > Sandy Metta, James 27811 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 1:35pm Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 46 Vism.EngPali.XIV, 46 46. Now among these [sensitivities thus] possessed of difference due to difference of kamma, the eye and the ear apprehend non-contiguous objective fields, since consciousness is caused even if the supporting [primaries] of the objective fields do not adhere to the [faculties'] own supporting primaries.22 The nose, tongue and body apprehend contiguous objective fields, because consciousness is caused only if their objective fields' [primaries] adhere to their own supporting [primaries], [that is to say, if the objective fields' primaries adhere] as support [in the case of odours and flavours], and themselves [directly in the case of tangible data, which are identical with the three primaries excluding water]. 46. eva.m kammavisesato visesavantesu ca etesu cakkhusotaani asampattavisayagaahakaani, attano nissaya.m analliinanissaye eva visaye vi~n~naa.nahetuttaa. ghaanajivhaakaayaa sampattavisayagaahakaa, nissayavasena ceva, saya~nca, attano nissaya.m alliineyeva visaye vi~n~naa.nahetuttaa. --------------------- Note 22. See also par. 134 and notes 60, 61. The amplification in this paragraph is from Pm., which continues: 'There is another method: the eye and the ear have non-contiguous objective fields because arising of consciousness is caused while their objective fields are separated by an interval and apart (adhika). Some say that the ear has a contiguous objective field. If it did, then sound born of consciousness would not be the object of ear-consciousness, for there is no arising externally of what is consciousness-originated. And in the texts sound as object is spoken of as being the object of ear-consciousness without making any distinction. Besides, there would be no defining the direction and position of the sound because it would then have to be apprehended in the place occupied by the possessor of the objective field, as happens in the case of an odour. Consequently it remains in the same place where it arose, if it comes into focus in the ear avenue (so the Burmese ed.). Are not the sounds of washermen [beating their washing on stones] heard later by those who stand at a distance? No; because there is a difference in the way of apprehending a sound according to the ways in which it becomes evident to one nearby and to one at a distance. For just as, because of difference in the way of apprehending the sound of words according to the way in which it becomes evident to one at a distance and to one nearby, there comes to be [respectively] not apprehending, and apprehending, of the differences in the syllables, so also, when the sound of washermen (a) becomes [an occurrence] that is evident throughout from beginning to end to one who is nearby, and (b) becomes an occurrence that is evident in compressed form in the end or in the middle to one who is at a distance, it is because there is a difference in the apprehending and definition, which occur later in the cognitive series of ear-consciousness, that there comes to be the assumption (abhimaana) "Heard faintly is heard later". But that sound comes into the ear's focus at the moment of its own existence and in dependence on the place where it arises (see Ch. XIII, par.112; DhsA. 313). If there is absolutely no successive becoming of sound, how does an echo arise? The sound, though it remains at a distance, is a condition for the arising of an echo and for the vibration of vessels, etc., elsewhere as a magnet (ayo-kanta) is for the movement of iron' (Pm. 446-47). 27812 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire and the path to truth .... and Alan's intro ... Hi Alan, Thank you for sharing more about your background. I have a brother and his family living in Manchester and he’s coming to visit us soon (via Moscow -cheapest flight!) As I write this (6am), I’m just about to head off for a yoga class, my first in 9 weeks because of an injury....I’ll be taking it relatively easy;-) --- Alan Bell wrote: > I must admit my heart is sometimestorn though between the desire of > concentrating more fully on a zen buddhist path or deeper yogic path, > as I > think it is difficult (as one gets more advanced) to expend energy on > both - ..... I think you should expend your energy on writing to us here;-) Seriously, I think that the more panna (understanding) develops, the more the problems and dilemmas are seen for what they are - mind games without any right or wrong answers. In other words, whatever way you go, it’s conditioned thinking and action and may change tomorrow, in five minutes time or even next moment.... Jon’s just told me two minutes to go... Metta, Sarah p.s You may like to skip some of the more technical posts for now. Keep firing off your own excellent Qs. ====== 27813 From: Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 47, 48, seven layers. Nina: "You had a ? mark after louse head, why?" Hi Nina, That is B. ~Nanamoli's. I think it is meant to convey that it is unknown where this quote from Sariputta comes from. Larry 27814 From: Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika.Vis.47,48 Hi Nina, Thanks for all this translation. It would be handy if Num were around to help us with the anatomy. Maybe someone could give him a nudge. In case you were wondering how big a louse head is, here is a link: http://www.ent.iastate.edu/imagegal/phthiraptera/ Larry 27815 From: Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana is ecstasy Hi Jeff, How do you manage to suppress the 5 hindrances (nivarana)? I can see 3 possible means: life-style, will, insight. Of course there is also natural ability which is the result of kamma. For myself, I can't concentrate for 2 minutes, or relax without dozing off or spacing out. Larry ---------------------- from Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": nívarana: 'hindrances', are 5 qualities which are obstacles to the mind and blind our mental vision. In the presence of them we cannot reach neighbourhood-concentration (upacára-samádhi) and full concentration (appaná-samádhi), and are unable to discern clearly the truth. They are: 1. sensuous desire (kámacchanda), 2. ill-will (vyápáda), 3. sloth and torpor (thína-middha), 4. restlessness and scruples (uddhacca-kukkucca), and 5. skeptical doubt (vicikicchá; q.v.). In the beautiful similes in A. V, 193, sensuous desire is compared with water mixed with manifold colours, ill-will with boiling water, sloth and torpor with water covered by moss, restlessness and scruples with agitated water whipped by the wind, skeptical doubt with turbid and muddy water. Just as in such water one cannot perceive one's own reflection, so in the presence of these 5 mental hindrances, one cannot clearly discern one's own benefit, nor that of others, nor that of both. Regarding the temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances on entering the first absorption, the stereotype sutta text (e g. A. IX, 40) runs as follows: "He has cast away sensuous desire; he dwells with a heart free from sensuous desire; from desire he cleanses his heart. "He has cast away ill-will; he dwells with a heart free from ill-will, cherishing love and compassion toward all living beings, he cleanses his heart from ill-will. "He has cast away sloth and torpor; he dwells free from sloth and torpor; loving the light, with watchful mind, with clear consciousness, he cleanses his mind from sloth and torpor. "He has cast away restlessness and scruples; dwelling with mind undisturbed, with heart full of peace, he cleanses his mind from restlessness and scruples. "He has cast away skeptical doubt; dwelling free from doubt, full of confidence in the good, he cleanses his heart from doubt. "He has put aside these 5 hindrances, and come to know these paralysing defilements of the mind. And far from sensual impressions, far from unwholesome things, he enters into the first absorption, etc." The overcoming of these 5 hindrances by the absorptions is, as already pointed out, a merely temporary suspension, called 'overcoming through repression' (vikkhambhana-pahána). They disappear forever on entering the 4 supermundane paths (s. ariyapuggala), i.e. skeptical doubt on reaching Sotápanship; sensuous desire, ill-will and mental worry on reaching Anágámiship; sloth, torpor and restlessness on reaching Arahatship. For their origination and their overcoming, s. A. I, 2; VI, 21; S. XLVI, 51. See The Five Mental Hindrances, by Nyanaponika Thera (WHEEL 26). 27816 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 7:24pm Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi RobM, > > Thanks for your kind efforts - I really appreciate your patience. :-) > > metta and peace, > Christine Christine, I hope that's not the end of the thread. RobM asked if you could think of a better conceptual model to explain the present reality. If you have answered and I missed it, my apologies, but it's a good question and I look forward to the answer. Another way of putting it might be: Should the present moment be any different from the way it is and, if so, why? Thanks in advance, Ken H 27817 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 7:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Sarah (and Michael), -------------- S: > I was reading in the paper today about a man who had been charged with 'grievous bodily harm' for throwing acid at an employer a few weeks back. The employer suffered complications in hospital and now the man has had the charge upgraded to murder. Hmmm.. --------------- The five factors of murder, [the kamma-patha], include the death of the victim. Conventionally, no victim dies in the same billionth of a second as the act of killing but I think, in reality, if he is going to die from that act, the conditions will be there. There is no past and no future and therefore, all deeds and all results are in the same, present, moment. 'looking forward to that message you've been keeping up your sleeve. Even something off the cuff will be fine. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27818 From: Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/8/03 10:31:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > The five factors of murder, [the kamma-patha], include > the death of the victim. Conventionally, no victim dies > in the same billionth of a second as the act of killing > but I think, in reality, if he is going to die from that > act, the conditions will be there. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Not necessarily all conditions are there yet. ---------------------------------------- There is no past and> > no future and therefore, all deeds and all results are in > the same, present, moment. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? That's just not so, Ken. Sure, at any time there is just "the present moment". But many of the conditions that led to the present moment being as it is are no longer existing.They *did*, however, occur before. There *is* no past, but there *was*! (Of course, it was then "the present".) If everything occurs right now (not in the trivial sense that it is always considered "now", but in the sense that there is no passage of time, then it is already time to wake up, because I've already had my night's sleep!! ;-) Ken, (psychological) time is the subjective awareness of the stream of events. There is a predecessor relation among mindstates, and so long as that is a reality, there is before and after, there is time. --------------------------------------- > > 'looking forward to that message you've been keeping up > your sleeve. Even something off the cuff will be fine. > :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27819 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Dear Christine, suppose you say this to A. Sujin, what would she answer? I think:"Dear Christine, what about this moment now?" Let us consider this sincerely, for a moment. Then all this questioning and reasoning just falls away. There is only this very moment, and that is all that matters. We cannot change the past. Just accumulate a tiny, tiny bit of understanding right now. Is'nt that enough? This is like an echo of Azita's words some time ago, I realize. Nina. op 08-12-2003 06:25 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Kamma is such an important part of Buddhism, I'd really like to feel > settled about it, but don't see how to bring this about. > I guess one just has to live "as if" it is true. 27820 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas Hi Sarah, your post mademe laugh. Howard's rupaville, nutrition, all those notions we were discussing. S: N: It really is as simple as that. I wish others too could see that nutrition is not so complicated. It is so real. S: < October full-moon, Nina and I will be in India at > the very spot where the Buddha returned after teaching Abhidhamma to his > mother in Tusita;-) You'll be on your own, James;-)> N: O, that is most impressive, I did not know. I feel such gratefulness for the Abhidhamma. And then to be there together with you and Jon! I do not wish James to be left behind, he should come too. I will at such moments think of all my friends. Nina. 27821 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Dear Sarah, I am very grateful for your comments and extracts. This is one of my favorites, you remember Perfections under Patience? It gives the long, beautiful story, but not much about the Co to the sutta itself. I have this in Thai, but had no time to go over it. Nina. op 08-12-2003 10:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > A little later Pukkusaati becomes an anagami (non-returner) when he hears > these further words: 27822 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas Hi Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, your post mademe laugh. > Howard's rupaville, nutrition, all those notions we were discussing. .... Thanks Nina, for taking it in such good humour (and James, good reply;-)). Actually, I hope it’s a lesson to Ken H in what happens when I write off the cuff posts (i.e I just get very silly...) ..... > S: < October full-moon, Nina and I will be in India at > > the very spot where the Buddha returned after teaching Abhidhamma to > his > > mother in Tusita;-) You'll be on your own, James;-)> > N: O, that is most impressive, I did not know. I feel such gratefulness > for > the Abhidhamma. And then to be there together with you and Jon! I do not > wish James to be left behind, he should come too. I will at such moments > think of all my friends. .... ;-) Nina, I feel I must quickly tell you that this was real off the cuff guess-work. I hadn’t checked any of my facts. However, now I’m being a little more methodical. According to a full moon calendar, next October’s full moon is on 27th Oct. According to the itinerary, we’ll be visiting Nalanda and Rajghir that day, including the cave where Sariputta became an arahant and later his home, presumably where his parinibbana took place. It sounds very suitable too for wise reflection on this auspicious day too. (Of course, there is almost a year for the itinerary to be changed around many times, so no use clinging to concepts or relics of the past as Herman would remind us;-)). Metta and apologies for any misunderstanding from my frivolous post. Sarah p.s If any other friends wish to join, they need to take very prompt action as there is already a waiting list etc. =================================================== 27823 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Ken H > > I hope that's not the end of the thread. RobM asked if > you could think of a better conceptual model to explain > the present reality. If you have answered and I missed > it, my apologies, but it's a good question and I look > forward to the answer. Another way of putting it might > be: Should the present moment be any different from the > way it is and, if so, why? > k: I was wondering why do you need so many conceptual model to explain reality. Isn't materials now in the sutta, commentaries and text more than enough for studying reality? Why is there a need to seek for more? regards Ken O 27824 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath Hi Ken H, This is a really late ambush post as James would say;-) wrote: > Changing the subject > slightly: sankhara-khandhas are sometimes called > 'volitional formations;' (Volition is among their number > and so, I suppose, they are all volitional.) Are sanna > and vedana any less volitional than the other cetasikas? .... Under sankhara khandha in Sammohavinodani (Dispeller, PTS), classification of Aggregates, it says: Cetana (volition) is stated as the principal formation (padhaana or pa.t.thaana-sa’nkhaara-vasena) at the lower end (he.t.thimako.tiyaa). For at the lower end the four formations handed down in the Paali arise actually together with eye-consciousness itself, and among these volition is principal because of its obviousness in the sense of accumulating. That is why that alone is included. But when that is included, the formations connected with it are also included.” In other words, it is sankhara, i.e.cetana which plays the key role in forming and which signifies kamma. I believe sankhara and kamma are both derived from karoti ‘to make’ and are synonymous when used in dependent origination. In sankhara khandha, sankhara refers to all cetana and associated mental factors apart from vedana and sanna, not just to those in the javana process. (Of course, in the still wider meaning of sankhara, all the khandhas are included as conditioned dhammas). As I quoted yesterday from SN,12, 38 (Volition (1)’Cetana’): “Bhikkhus, what one intends (ceteti), and what one plans, and whaever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness...” The comy told us that ceteti includes all wholesome and unwholesome cetana which with the other factors and anusaya become a condition for cittas that can produce results, rebirth and so on. No need to be polite - how are we doing here? I’d appreciate any of your comments and ideas too. Also see note at end of post.... > -------------------- > S: > On anapanasati - that post of Jon's which Nina re- > sent is a pretty neat summary (imho) if you're still on > your surf-board up until departure and Andrew is still > giving you trouble;-) > ------------------ > > Yes, I have already come across that post in a > couple of places. Along with others like it, it is just > too good to leave out of my summary. .... It was your summary I was after.....;-) I answered the last part of your post on Mahacattarika ages ago, but am ready for another plunge;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Khandhas - I understand the categories are according to clinging as I mentioned before. Khandhas of clinging because of arising and falling away, different at each moment. Clinging clings to rupa, vedana etc. While in theory upaadaanakkhandha can apply to any conditioned reality (except lokuttara cittas), the meaning, as I understand, refers to the reality experienced and clung to now. In other words, it refers to the arising and falling away of what is actually experienced. If eye-sense is not experienced and not clung to, it is not upadana khandha. Lokuttara cittas are not experienced and so cannot be objects of clinging. Nibbana is only experienced by lokuttara cittas. ====== 27825 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 0:54am Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness KenH, RobM had kindly tried to answer the doubts and persistent questions I had about the buddhist teaching of kamma. I sensed he was growing impatient with my obtuseness and I decided not to inflict my confusion on him any further. I wasn't stating whether or not the present moment should be different - I was asking what proof there is for the Buddhist explanation of why it is as it is (Kalama sutta). I strongly disagree that that good -->good and that bad -->bad is an evidently common experience. Maybe in a small and protected circle for a short period of time, but not in the real world. And "having done a thesis on kamma" wouldn't change that. All day - everyday - I see and hear about just the opposite; cigarette burns, broken bones, or stab wounds on babies and children, bashed women, the helpless and the homeless, lonely and dying, de-frauded elderly people, seriously hurt and permanently disabled young people, distraught people of all ages who seek to 'end' their worries - GOOD people who have awful, chaotic things happen, 'accidently' or deliberately. I think it extremely simplistic to decide somewhere, somehow, somewhen they brought it on themselves - i.e. 'they inherited the result of actions done by the continuum previously'. And if the "proof" for kamma inherited over many lifetimes is supposed to be an extension of what is right before our eyes in this life, then I'd say it fails miserably to be convincing in any way. It isn't a matter of 'giving a better model'. Positing God, chaos, or telepathic emanations from an alien concealed behind the sun are all about equally convincing and have as much proof. So - you asked, I answered, and now what's your hypothesis KenH and with what evidence do you support it? Blind faith, self hypnosis or toeing the party line excepted. Thanks in advance, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi RobM, > > > > Thanks for your kind efforts - I really appreciate your patience. > :-) > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > Christine, > > I hope that's not the end of the thread. RobM asked if > you could think of a better conceptual model to explain > the present reality. If you have answered and I missed > it, my apologies, but it's a good question and I look > forward to the answer. Another way of putting it might > be: Should the present moment be any different from the > way it is and, if so, why? > > Thanks in advance, > Ken H 27826 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Ken H, I wish I could just give quick off the cuff replies to your messages, but usually the points you raise are too difficult for that or there is far too much ignorance for it this end;-) --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, > The translation I have (by David Maurice), says "There is > right understanding that is good and has good results but > yet has some blemishes and so ripens to clinging. It is > the opposite of wrong understanding but still has > elements of self and thought of self. > You have explained, I think, that this is mundane right > view (satipatthana). And also, it is the mundane right > view of a worldling, not of an ariyan. Ariyan right view, > be it mundane or supramundane, does not condition rebirth > (ripen to clinging). > > Then you add: > ---------- > S: > "MA [the comy] says that this is the right view of > insight which understands wrong view as an object by > penetrating its characteristic of impermanence, etc, and > which understands right view by exercising the function > of comprehension and by clearing away confusion." > ----------- > > So it is telling us that mundane insight can have wrong > understanding and right understanding as object. (In this > context, the significance of 'impermanence' and 'clearing > away' escapes me.) .... What I write is just my best guess at the present time as James would say. Insight develops and the fourth vipassana nana is knowledge or the arising and falling away of realities. Fewer and fewer conditions for doubts or confusion, though only finally eradicated by sotapatti-magga citta. I also think this first reference to right view (to which the MA note above refers) is applied to both mundane and supramundane rt view, because it then goes on to discuss the two kinds of rt view. A development of insight which knows more and more precisely what is rt view and what is wrong view. (Of course, wrong view can only be pnetrated directly when it arises, i.e before becoming a sotapanna... ..... > S: > Working back, in footnote 1100 for `pubbangamaa', > lit. "the forerunner", he gives: > > "MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners: > the right view of insight [as being discussed above], > which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, > and non-self; and the right view of the path, which > arises as a consequence of insight and effects the > radical destruction of defilements." > ------------- > > Is this a commentary on the preceding stanza which reads: > > "And how does right understanding come first? If > one realises that wrong understanding is wrong > understanding and right understanding is right > understanding, then that is one's right understanding." .... Yes, exactly. .... > > I have been trying to sort this out in terms of wrong, > mundane and supramundane views and whether there is one > that understands all three. If you can explain it > simply, that would be good; otherwise, I'm happy to leave > it in the too-hard basket for a while longer. .... Wrong view understands wrongly as in the examples given. Right view understands realities, impermanence, kamma, khandhas etc. It understands what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’. It understands the characteristic of wrong view when it arises directly or on reflection when it hears wrong view from others. As it said in the quote, the supramundane rt view is the ‘consequence’ of insight or mundane rt view which eradicates defilements such as doubt and wrong view completely. Part 2 coming.... Metta, Sarah ====== 27827 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Ken H (Steve & All), I’d be very glad for any input Steve can give too. --- kenhowardau wrote: > Getting back to the Mahacattarika Sutta: When you are > reading that sutta, do you get the impression that the > words, "the realisation that wrong understanding is wrong > understanding," are being used to describe all mundane > right understanding? And do you get the impression that > "the realisation that right understanding is right > understanding," [in this instance], describes only > 'supramundane right understanding?' .... No. ..... > In other words, I think 'wrong view' is being used > metaphorically for everything that is not Nibbana and the > Path. And 'right view,' for everything that is. .... Sorry, Ken H, you’ve completely lost me here. Wrong view is carefully defined to indicate it refers to beliefs that kamma doesn’t bring results, no rebirth, no such thing as generosity, no such thing as nibbana or those who have realised it etc. Right view - kamma, morality, rebirth, nibbana, enlightened sangha etc. .... > At Cooran, Steve and I were talking about the second > noble truth. We were wondering why 'clinging' (lobha) is > given as the cause of dukkha. I have slotted this into my > theory: :-) .... Oh, I can see you were having fun in between being mean to flies and building fires;-) ..... > In the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the first noble truth > is illustrated as 'birth, decay, death, grief, > lamentation' and so on. But we know that 'joy, > celebration, mundane success,' are also dukkha. It seems > as if the pleasant/wholesome dukkhas are being left out > for the purposes of metaphor. .... “briefly, the five factors of attachment are suffering” (sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa). So joy, celebration and success are all included. Grief, lamentation etc on account of clinging to the joy, celebration etc. .... >The metaphor highlights > the difference between the dukkhas that are mundane (the > five aggregates of clinging, the first noble truth) from > the dukkhas that are supramundane (the five aggregates of > path consciousness, the fourth noble truth). > I speculate that, for similar reasons, lobha is given as > the cause of dukkha -- even though all six mundane > motivations are responsible. This completes a > simplified, metaphorical picture painted by the profound, > ultimately real, four noble truths: 1, unwholesome, > conditioned reality is due to 2, unwholesomeness, whereas > 3, wholesome unconditioned reality is attained by 4, > wholesomeness. > > What do you think? (Be polite.) > :-) ..... I may need Steve to help me interpret :-) I don’t see any metaphor. It is the attachment to the inherently impermanent and unsatisfactory that is the cause of suffering. I think we can begin to test it out at this moment. I don’t see the 4NT as painting a metaphorical picture either. Also, not just unwholesome conditioned realities but each moment of samsara directly or indirectly is a result of ignorance and attachment. I’m probably just being dense here, Ken H. Hopefully Steve, Andrew or someone better at metaphoring like James can help. Perhaps I'm just running out of steam. Metta, Sarah ====== 27828 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hi Ken H (& Michael), It's OK, this is the last;-) --- kenhowardau wrote: > The interpretations I meant were the ones I referred to > as found in the commentaries to the Satipatthana Sutta. > (about jackalls and babies) > > In my early days of Dhamma study, there were popular > Buddhists books telling me how to 'practise satipatthana.' > The idea was that I should concentrate on (be mindful of) > everything I did in daily life: 'When you are making a > pot of tea, know you are making a pot of tea . . as you > see the tea pot, know you are seeing the tea pot . . as > you reach for it, . . as you feel the elbow straighten . . > the fingers straighten . . the touch of the tea pot . . .' > > These silly, impractical instructions are impossible to > comply with for more than a few seconds; More to the point, > they are ineffective and counterproductive and they make a > mockery of the Dhamma. .... ;-) Funny, as I was lifting the tea pot this morning, I was thinking of this and chuckling to myself.... .... > As you know, it is possible for wholesome consciousness > to experience unwholesome consciousness. By normal > logic, this should not be possible. But, in the > billionth of a second (or so) after a dhamma has ceased > to exist, the succeeding mental factors can know its > characteristics just as clearly as if it were still > there. .... including wrong view;-) .... > That's all I was trying to describe in my previous > message -- vipassana consciousness sharing the same > object as the previous jhana consciousness and so, > effectively, the two operating together. ... Wouldn't the object of the vipassana consciousness be one of the jhana factors or a reality such as the hardness of breath as opposed to the concept experienced by the previous jhana consciousness? Of course when they are coupled, the object (reality) is experienced by jhana level concentration etc. But then the factors are arising together. I'm getting into hot water here too. Nina may need to rescue us. Metta, Sarah ===== 27829 From: bodhi2500 Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath Hi Sarah and all Sarah wrote: >While in theory upaadaanakkhandha can apply to any conditioned reality (except lokuttara cittas), the meaning, as I understand, refers to the reality experienced and clung to now. In other words, it refers to the arising and > falling away of what is actually experienced. If eye-sense is not > experienced and not clung to, it is not upadana khandha. > ====== Wouldn't "eye-sense" be "capable of being clung to" therefore making it an upadanakhandha, whether it was being clung to or not? Steve 27830 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hang-ups and Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Ken H (& James), One more... You were discussing the Lokaayatika Sutta (SN12, 48 (8)) with James. Without B.Bodhi’s extensive commentary notes, I’d have had no idea about the meaning. Consider the BB translation for a Xmas presie.... --- kenhowardau wrote: > > As we have discussed before, I need expert help before I > can interpret a sutta with any confidence. What are we to > make of the way the Buddha answered the questions? He > wasn't interested in discussing the four forms of > cosmology but; "Avoiding these two extremes, the > Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From > ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. > From fabrications as a requisite condition comes > consciousness. . . ." > > So it seems that the notion "dhammas exist," is one of > the extreme (non-middle), beliefs. .... The notes give details about lokaayata (the science of debate).The commentary indicates that the first and third views are forms of eternalist view (sassatadi.t.thi)and the second and fourth views are forms of annihilationist view (ucchedad.t.thi). The first view was the one about whether all exists and the third one to whether there was unity (ekatta.m). According to the comy, he’s asking whether it has a permanent nature (niccasabhaava). Clearly this is not the same as suggesting paramattha dhammas have anicca sabhaava without any suggestion of permanence. .... > Call me stubborn if you like, but I still think it is > correct to say that dhammas exist absolutely (have their > own sabhava). After all, we have that sutta quoted by > RobertK where the Buddha specifically agrees with the > view that dhammas exist. .... Exactly so. (I mean, we’re in full accord;-)) So when it then refers to the middle path teaching of the Dhamma, it is to the direct understanding of dhammas as anicca, dukkha, anatta as usual. Look f/w to many more of your contributions and discussions. You'll be glad to hear I'm going off for a hike now;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 27831 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James, I meant to add a note at the time to say I completely agreed with these conclusions below.(it's happening quite often these days;-)). --- buddhatrue wrote: <....> >Take for example this stanza that you quote from the Dhammapada: > > When you see with discernment, > 'All phenomena are not-self' -- > you grow disenchanted with stress. > This is the path > to purity. > > There is obviously a division between discerning that `all phenomena > are not-self' and the final goal of purity (nibbana). However, it > would seem highly illogical that the path and the goal are complete > opposites or unrelated. If the path is viewing things as `non-self' > than the goal might be a true realization of 'non-self'. Right? For > example, if you want to teach someone to cook you don't have them > practice hoop shots, you have them practice cooking. The path and > the goal are related in most teaching situations. ... Nicely put. Metta, Sarah ====== 27832 From: ukvegans Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 3:03am Subject: my intro and thoughts ... To Sarah & All, Thanks very much for your e-mail. The dilemma I have between Yoga (steeped in Hinduism) and Buddhism, is that I ultimately believe that there is a Self (or immortal soul), which is against fundamental buddhist belief :-) However, I do love the Buddha dharma which is very similar to Patanjali's eight limbs of Yoga as a way to live one's life ... but I have read that it is important, as one develops a more advanced practice to concentrate on one path e.g. Yogic versus Buddhism. What do you think ? I have thought of trying to attend a different buddhist group as the Manchester buddhist centre which is part of the FWBO, as the MBC seemed a little too 'organised' if you know what I mean ... ? I long very much sometimes to be have more friends I have things in common with (spirituality), and when I atteneded the Manchester BC I did connect there with the people in the sangha. I certainly do feel that I am suffering from panna (mind games) at the moment and have 'stepped up' my time on meditation lately to try and help with this, do you have any other ideas that may help ... ? You seem very experienced in the dharma Sarah - how did you come to buddhism ? and what is your practice at this time ... ? Also, interested in how other members came to buddhism .. you can mail me off line with longer replies to this question if you wish ?! In light, Alan 27833 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 3:30am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV 47, 48 Hi Everyone, Larry, I know you are the messenger ( and a devoted one at that). A number of us start their waking day by reaching for their glasses. Others may need to race to the bathroom and implant contacts. Others may have contacts that can stay in place. Others may have had surgery to correct the image formed by the lens onto the retina. These marvels ie glasses, contacts, surgery have been made possible by the courage to discard accepted views of how things work. Every chance though, that reading sub-commentaries in a small-type face, or in a dimly lit environment, will wreck that small louses head beyond repair. That's common sense, not kamma. Look after your eyes, and they will look for you :-) Peace Herman PS By the way Sarah, what sort of liquid do you store your falsies in at night :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 47. 1. There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like > a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with > dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be > found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the > white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where > there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. > It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of > cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose [respective] > functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a warrior > prince is by the four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, > dressing, and fanning. It is consolidatd by temperature, consciousness, > and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is furnished with colour, > odour, flavour, etc. (see Ch. XVIII, par. 5); it is the size of a mere > louse's head; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for > eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of the cognitive > series]. [446] > > 48. And this is said by the Geneal of the Dhamma: > > 'The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object is small and it is > subtle too, no bigger than a louse's head' (?). > -------------------- 27834 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > RobM had kindly tried to answer the doubts and persistent questions I > had about the buddhist teaching of kamma. I sensed he was growing > impatient with my obtuseness and I decided not to inflict my > confusion on him any further. ..... It’s considerate of you to be concerned, but I don’t think RobM was becoming impatient. Regardless, we all know he’s very happy to share the Dhamma whenever he can and from different angles. He has great confidence in the value of this as do you. It’s a kind of dana to give others like him this opportunity for kusala. No need to think of any infliction;-) It sounds corny to say so, but really we all have confusion and obtuseness over certain points or aspects and we learn from those like you who are brave enough to honestly share your difficulties which many others will be relating to. It helps us all question our understanding too (and check whether we're just toeing party lines;-)). Thanks, Chris. (Also to Ken H for the encouragement). Metta, Sarah ===== 27835 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 5:10am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 47-48 Vism.EngPali.XIV, 47-48 47. 1. There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose [respective] functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a warrior prince is by four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, dressing, and fanning. It is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is furnished with colour, odour, flavour, etc. (see Ch. XVIII, par. 5); it is the size of a mere louse's head; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of the cognitive series]. [446] 47. cakkhu cettha yadeta.m loke niilapakhumasamaaki.n.naka.nhasukkama.n.dalavicitta.m niiluppaladalasannibha.m cakkhuuti vuccati. tassa sasambhaaracakkhuno setama.n.dalaparikkhittassa ka.nhama.n.dalassa majjhe abhimukhe .thitaana.m sariirasa.n.thaanuppattipadese sattasu picupa.talesu aasittatela.m picupa.talaani viya satta akkhipa.talaanibyaapetvaa dhaara.nanhaapanama.n.danabiijanakiccaahi catuuhi dhaatiihi khattiyakumaaro viya sandhaara.nabandhanaparipaacanasamudiira.nakiccaahi catuuhi dhaatuuhi katuupakaara.m utucittaahaarehi upatthambhiyamaana.m aayunaa anupaaliyamaana.m va.n.nagandharasaadiihi parivuta.m pamaa.nato uukaasiramatta.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadiina.m yathaaraha.m vatthudvaarabhaava.m saadhayamaana.m ti.t.thati. 48. And this is said by the General of the Dhamma: 'The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object Is small and it is subtle too, no bigger than a louse's head' (?). 48. vuttampi ceta.m dhammasenaapatinaa -- ``yena cakkhupasaadena, ruupaani manupassati. paritta.m sukhuma.m eta.m, uukaasirasamuupama''nti.. 27836 From: robmoult Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > RobM had kindly tried to answer the doubts and persistent questions I > had about the buddhist teaching of kamma. I sensed he was growing > impatient with my obtuseness and I decided not to inflict my > confusion on him any further. ===== Oh, I am terribly sorry if I left you with that impression. I assure you, not even a flicker of impatience. I'm an Abhidhamma teacher and have to set a good example, so I can't lie... especially in a Buddhist discussion group :-) ===== > I wasn't stating whether or not the present moment should be > different - I was asking what proof there is for the Buddhist > explanation of why it is as it is (Kalama sutta). > I strongly disagree that that good -->good and that bad -->bad is an > evidently common experience. Maybe in a small and protected circle > for a short period of time, but not in the real world. ===== I have an in-built faith that good --> good and bad --> bad, but I can fully appreciate how somebody with your experiences could question that point and have a different perspective. I am about to board a flight to Colombo. I am planning a spree at Buddhist bookstores to assist the local economy. Amateurs refer to this activity as "shopping"; we professionals call it "buying" :-) Over the next few days, I will try to "walk a mile in your shoes", Christine. I expect it will be painful; not used to high heels :-) sorry, I am in a weird mood tonight. I expect it will be painful because you witness more suffering in a day than most people witness in a lifetime. Interestingly, you mention the Kalama Sutta above. We might want to consider the four solaces from this sutta as a starting point: "'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him. "'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him. "'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him. "'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him. Christine, I want you to know that I will be thinking of you with compassion (karuna; wanting to reduce your suffering) over the next few days. Now that I understand your concern a bit better, I hope that I can find some words in the texts that help to ease your mind. Metta and Karuna, Your Friend, Rob M :-) 27837 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 6:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > I meant to add a note at the time to say I completely agreed with these > conclusions below.(it's happening quite often these days;-)). > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > <....> > > >Take for example this stanza that you quote from the Dhammapada: > > > > When you see with discernment, > > 'All phenomena are not-self' -- > > you grow disenchanted with stress. > > This is the path > > to purity. > > > > There is obviously a division between discerning that `all phenomena > > are not-self' and the final goal of purity (nibbana). However, it > > would seem highly illogical that the path and the goal are complete > > opposites or unrelated. If the path is viewing things as `non- self' > > than the goal might be a true realization of 'non-self'. Right? For > > example, if you want to teach someone to cook you don't have them > > practice hoop shots, you have them practice cooking. The path and > > the goal are related in most teaching situations. > ... > Nicely put. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== I think you are considering what I wrote out of context. There was more to this post that you snipped off. I wasn't saying that this is my viewpoint per se (even though you agree with it); I was just saying that this reasoning is something to consider. I would be presumptuous to the extreme to say that this is the way things are because I simply don't know. Theoretical arguments will only get a person so far. I don't have a direct realization of anatta and what it means it relation to issues like karma and transmigration. Perhaps I will have this understanding later, maybe not…but I am not trying to pretend that I do now. Metta, James 27838 From: Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hi, Christine (and Ken) - In a message dated 12/9/03 3:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > All day - everyday - > I see and hear about just the opposite; cigarette burns, broken > bones, or stab wounds on babies and children, bashed women, the > helpless and the homeless, lonely and dying, de-frauded elderly > people, seriously hurt and permanently disabled young people, > distraught people of all ages who seek to 'end' their worries - GOOD > people who have awful, chaotic things happen, 'accidently' or > deliberately. I think it extremely simplistic to decide somewhere, > somehow, somewhen they brought it on themselves - i.e. 'they > inherited the result of actions done by the continuum previously'. > ========================= I think it is extremely simplistic, and, in its extreme form contradictory. First of all, the Buddha denied that all that comes to one comes from his/her past actions. Also, and here is the contradictoriness, if all that happens to A is due to A's past actions, then B should not be "guilty" in attacking A, and not "earn any bad kamma points"! As I see it, a volitional action that *had* to be performed independent of that volition, is a contradiction in terms. As I see it, during certain events, there *may* be innocent victims. (Not *always* - there can be contributing kamma vipaka of the victim - but we cannot tell when that is a factor or not.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27839 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Livelihood Hi Howard, I followed with interest your dialogue with Christine. Most people will agree that there are transgressions as to livelihood which are coarse defilements. This is of the level of viitikkama kilesa, coarse defilements. I am particularly interested in what you say about the momentary aspect, this goes to the heart of the matter. I would just like to add a few remarks. op 06-12-2003 16:02 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > It seems to me that what really happens at all happens at a moment in > time, on some occasion... (snip) The same > applies to Right Action and Right Speech. All of these have their "critical > points" > occurring at moments in time, on specific occasions, and they are matters, in > specific areas, of volition that is immediately expressed in action or is > determinative of future action. The rest of the time, there is a sort of > "coasting" that is rather neutral. Or so it seems to me. N: As you say, We also find this in the Dhammasangani: § 121: Now, at that time, there are dhammas... Or: At that occasion there is contact,... and a long list of dhammas follows. This is deep in meaning! Volition certainly is an important factor, but there are also other cetasikas performing their functions at the moment of abstaining. As you know, there are three cetasikas performing the functions of abstention, virati cetasikas: abstention from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. It is good to know different degrees of them. There are not only coarse defilements, also medium defilements (pariyutthana kilesa) and the latent tendencies. We may not tell a lie, but exaggerating our story, so that it is not quite true. In the Vis. we read about beansoupery: some things are true, some are not, just as in a soup some beans are cooked, some are not quite cooked. Also the monks can engage in wrong livelihood, trying to become popular, meditating in public, hinting when they like to obtain requisites. In Ch 1 the Vis. gives the explanation of all aspects of sila, one of them the guarding of the sense-doors. When there is mindfulness of nama and rupa sati keeps one from transgressing. One is about to say an unpleasant word, but sati can perform its function. One does not press that button to send a harsh mail. But, we can have beautiful intentions, and why do we still engage in what is akusala? Why so much aversion when there is blame? The harsh word is spoken before we realize it, the button is pushed before we realize it. It is all "at some occasion" and these occasions arise, so quickly and beyond control. Different conditions are cooperating. The latent tendencies get the better of us. They are strong and have soil to grow in. They are the defilements that can only be eradicated at the stages of enlightenment. They are subtle defilements, but strong. It needs a refined understanding to go to the root of defilements. As to the first: sense desire-clinging, all kinds of objects in this world are included, praise, blame, etc. I shall quote part of my transl from Thai of latent tendencies: Thus, the momentary aspect is essential. Momentary realities are investigated by awareness of each reality that presents itself. Included have to be all the moments of akusala, whether we like it or not. When I say beyond control, I mean: they arise already in the process of cittas. This is like a natural law (nyaama). But, there is a remedy. The development of understanding of the presently arisen reality. The only remedy really. By the study of latent tendencies we learn more about the conditions for akusala that arises. Then we find "our akusala" less important. This helps us also not to dwell so long on it, to be oppressed by it. Nina. 27840 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 10:22am Subject: anapanasati 6 a anapanasati 6 a We have to go back to the fourth tetrad of the sutta: (XIII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence². (XIV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating fading away²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating fading away². (XV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating cessation²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating cessation². (XVI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment². (then as translated by Ven. Nyanatiloka:) <..on that occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful ,having put away covetousness and grief with regard to the world. Having see with understanding what is the abandoning of covetousness and grief, he becomes one who looks on with complete equanimity. That is why on that occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful ,having put away covetousness and grief with regard to the world. That is how respiration-mindfulness, developed and repeatedly practised, perfects the four foundations of mindfulness.> **** The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 237) states about the fourth tetrad, ŒThis tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three deal with serenity and insight.¹ As regards the words of the fourth tetrad, ³(XIII) I shall breathe in... breathe out contemplating impermanence², the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 234) states: Œ ... Impermanence is the rise and fall and change in those same khandhas, or it is their non-existence after having been; the meaning is, it is the break-up of produced khandhas through their momentary dissolution since they do not remain in the same mode. Contemplation of impermanence is contemplation of materiality, etc., as ³impermanent² in virtue of that impermanence...¹ Nina. 27841 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika.Vis.47,48, NUM Hi Larry, look, Larry, this is the way to give a nudge. He checks mail once a day, I believe. op 09-12-2003 01:30 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: It would be handy if Num were around to > help us with the anatomy. Maybe someone could give him a nudge. In case > you were wondering how big a louse head is, here is a link: > http://www.ent.iastate.edu/imagegal/phthiraptera/ N: I would like to hear Num but not for medical reasons, but because of his understanding of the Dhamma. Again, this is only a simile and nothing more. Sometimes a knowledge of Ayurveda comes in handy to understand why such or such simile is used. I remember the posts about kamma not being the only cause for happenings, and bile. People in olden times had questions about realities and then such similes were used. Also the lousehead is only a simile. Thanks for the link, but I have no time to look at it. Another aspect we should pay attention to: eyesense is a faculty, indriya produced by kamma. Eyesense can be keen or weak, depending on kamma. Faculties: see Vis. XVI. A faculty is a "leader" in its own field. Some are rupas, some namas. XVI, 6 XVI, 10: As to function. < Firstly, because of the words "The eye-base is a condition, as faculty condition, for the eye-consciousness-element and for the states associated therewith [N: cetasikas] (Ptnl.5), the eye's faculty's function is to cause by its own keenness, slowness, etc., the occurrence of eye-consciousness and associated states, etc., in a mode paralel to its own, which is called their keenness, slowness, etc. , this function being accomplished through the state of faculty condition.> Thus the keenness or slowness of the eyefaculty conditions seeing. We have to study faculties, indriyas, so that we can also understand what follows in our text about femininity faculty, and other faculties. Nina. 27842 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 11:29am Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Ken O and Christine, After re-reading my original message, I can see why you both find it less than totally satisfactory :-) What a mess. Sorry about that. Ken O wrote: -------------- k: I was wondering why do you need so many conceptual model to explain reality. Isn't materials now in the sutta, commentaries and text more than enough for studying reality? Why is there a need to seek for more? -------------- I agree, there is no need at all. I should define my terms: Reality is namas and rupas -- arising and falling away. A conceptual model explains what they are and why they behave the way they do. The description of kamma and vipaka is the model RobM and Christine were talking about. (before I butted in) "What better model could there be," was the question I wanted them to keep discussing. Christine, you wrote: ----------------- . . . . > I wasn't stating whether or not the present moment should be different ------------- No, that was me. It seemed like a good idea at the time. The present moment is conditioned by the present namas and rupas and all the other namas and rupas that ever went before it -- over untold lifetimes. There is no way the present moment could be any different -- no element of chance, no decree of an almighty god. I think that's how it should be, don't you? -------------- C: > - I was asking what proof there is for the Buddhist explanation of why it is as it is (Kalama sutta). I strongly disagree that that good -->good and that bad -->bad is an evidently common experience. --------------- Yeah b't. . that's what the Buddha taught. That's what we're studying. We don't have proof, we haven't proved it for ourselves, we are uninstructed worldlings. --------------- C: > Maybe in a small and protected circle for a short period of time, but not in the real world. And "having done a thesis on kamma" wouldn't change that. All day - everyday I see and hear about just the opposite; cigarette burns, broken bones, or stab wounds on babies and children, <. . . > - GOOD people who have awful, chaotic things happen, 'accidently' or deliberately. ----------------- How can we possibly explain these things if not by the laws of kamma and vipaka? We both find blind chance and Almighty God unacceptable. No, kamma/vipaka has all the answers. Admittedly, it's hard when you see suffering in real life. It makes it harder if we differentiate between good people and bad people but that's what we worldlings do. -- even though we are told samsara is a giant ferris wheel (now we're good people. . . . now we're bad people. . . now we're good people). In the long run, we're all just people. ------------------- C: > I think it extremely simplistic to decide somewhere, somehow, somewhen they brought it on themselves - i.e. 'they inherited the result of actions done by the continuum previously'. ------------------- When you simply study namas and rupas (not "my" nama and rupa, not "their" nama and rupa, just nama and rupa), is there any problem? No. Remember Brian at Cooran: He had never been in the least bit interested in nama and rupa; While we were talking about rebirth and the difficulties in accepting the theory of it, suddenly, the penny dropped. He saw the world purely in terms of impersonal nama and rupa (cuti- citta and all that), and it was all totally sensible and acceptable. He was genuinely excited about it: genuinely grateful to us for explaining it that way. So, whenever we have problems dealing with stories, we should be like Brian. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27843 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hang-ups and Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hello KenH & Sarah, KenH Call me stubborn if you like, but I still think it is correct to say that dham?as exist absolutely (have their own sabhava). After all, we have that sutta quoted by RobertK where the Buddha specifically agrees with the view that dhammas exist. Sarah: Exactly so. (I mean, we’re in full accord;-)) Michael: An essence (sabhava), or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing an essence, is uncaused, independent of other phenomena, and not fabricated from other things. If an essence would come from causes and conditions, then it would be fabricated. How could it be fabricated since essence does not depend on another. If existence is through essence then there cannot be nonexistence. A change in essence is not tenable. An essential property is a necessary property, and it is incoherent to say that a thing loses a necessary property. This is eternalism, a view rejected by the Buddha. Metta Michael 27844 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Sarah, There's not much of my theorising you haven't thoroughly squashed. I feared as much. But thank you, it had to be done. It's time for my fortnightly trip to Brisbane. I will reply properly in a day or two. Kind regards, Ken H -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken H (Steve & All), > > I'd be very glad for any input Steve can give too. > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > > > Getting back to the Mahacattarika Sutta: When you are > > reading that sutta, do you get the impression that the > > words, "the realisation that wrong understanding is wrong > > understanding," are being used to describe all mundane > > right understanding? And do you get the impression that > > "the realisation that right understanding is right > > understanding," [in this instance], describes only > > 'supramundane right understanding?' > .... > No. > ..... > > In other words, I think 'wrong view' is being used 27845 From: nordwest Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alan / my intro and thoughts ... Dear Alan, In Buddhism, it is beleived that what we are is mind and consciousness. Everything else we believe to be, is an illusion. Maybe you just use thw word "soul" for "consciousness", many people do so. The Soul would include things as emotions and knowledge, as far as I know, but the consciousness perceives the things how they are without thinking, it is the non-thinking mind. Hinduism and buddhism are not too far away from another, the revolutionary thing of buddha was the attainment of complete enlightenment, which cannot be attained thorugh any samadhi. However, the first steps are various samadhis in mediatation. thomas ukvegans wrote: To Sarah & All, Thanks very much for your e-mail. The dilemma I have between Yoga (steeped in Hinduism) and Buddhism, is that I ultimately believe that there is a Self (or immortal soul), which is against fundamental buddhist belief :-) However, I do love the Buddha dharma which is very similar to Patanjali's eight limbs of Yoga as a way to live one's life ... but I have read that it is important, as one develops a more advanced practice to concentrate on one path e.g. Yogic versus Buddhism. What do you think ? 27846 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clung to Dear Sarah and Steve, op 09-12-2003 11:05 schreef bodhi2500 op seisen_@h...: > > Wouldn't "eye-sense" be "capable of being clung to" therefore making > it an upadanakhandha, whether it was being clung to or not? N: upaadi.n.na, clung to, this is usually said of those rupas of the body produced by kamma. See Dsgn lists. Soon we get this in the Tiika. Also a note in the Wheel 101 about: Discourse on Elephant's Footprint, which states this, and in a general sense it can also be used for the whole body, since it is clung to by conceit, craving and wrong view. Nina. 27847 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: karoti, sankhara. Dear Sarah, Excuse me, just a small remark about the Pali karoti: to act, also build up. sankhaara: note the *h*, a different stem. preparation. what is put together, compounded, formed up, conditioned. I agree with your comments. Nina. op 09-12-2003 09:29 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > In other words, it is sankhara, i.e.cetana which plays the key role in > forming and which signifies kamma. I believe sankhara and kamma are both > derived from karoti to make’ and are synonymous when used in dependent > origination. In sankhara khandha, sankhara refers to all cetana and > associated mental factors apart from vedana and sanna, not just to those > in the javana process. (Of course, in the still wider meaning of sankhara, > all the khandhas are included as conditioned dhammas). 27848 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas and a confession. Dear Sarah, op 09-12-2003 07:32 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > According to a full moon > calendar, next October’s full moon is on 27th Oct. According to the > itinerary, we’ll be visiting Nalanda and Rajghir that day, including the > cave where Sariputta became an arahant and later his home, presumably > where his parinibbana took place. It sounds very suitable too for wise > reflection on this auspicious day too. (Of course, there is almost a year > for the itinerary to be changed around many times, so no use clinging to > concepts or relics of the past as Herman would remind us;-)). N: yes, I am clinging to concepts far too much!! And seemingly noble things. And not only concepts. Name it and I cling. The latent tendencies are so strong. But we can learn from this. The study and reflection about them is sobering up. The itinary never changed, as far as we experienced, when Kh Suwat was in charge. There was once trouble between Hindus and Moslems, and he had to change times slightly, but after all he managed fine. Only the hotel changed sometimes, because the group was large. There is no worry with him in charge. Nina. 27849 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: karoti, sankhara. Hi Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Excuse me, just a small remark about the Pali karoti: to act, also build > up. > sankhaara: note the *h*, a different stem. preparation. what is put > together, compounded, formed up, conditioned. I agree with your > comments. .... Thank you for your comments. From the first entries for these terms in the PTS dict, what you say makes sense: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Sankhara (p. 664) [fr. san+kr, not Vedic, but as sanskara Epic & Class. Kamma (p. 190) (nt.) [Vedic karman, work esp. sacrificial process. For ending °man=Idg. *men cp. Sk. dhaman=Gr. dh=ma, Sk. naman=Lat nomen] the doing, deed, work; orig. meaning (see karoti) either building (cp. Lit. kurti, Opr. kura to build) ..... I was being guided by comments of B.Bodhi’s in his introduction to SN which I’d read before and just assumed (with regard to the Pali) were correct. He writes: “ ‘Sa’nkhaara’ is derived from the prefix sa.m (=con), “together.” and the verb ‘karoti’, “to make”....................As the second factor in the formula of dependent origination, ‘sa’nkhaaras are the kammically active volitions responsible, in conjunction with ignorance and craving, for generating rebirth.........’Sa’nkhaaraa is synonymous with ‘kamma’, to which it is etymologically related, both being derived from ‘karoti’.....” ***** Thank you for pointing out that this probably is not correct. Perhaps we can confirm it with Jim when he returns or Steve may add a comment too. Meanwhile I'll be more careful about Pali points I'm just repeating without checking more carefully;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 27850 From: Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Livelihood Hi, Nina - Thank you for the detailed reply. I found nothing in it to make me "uncomfortable." ;-)) I add a brief comment to one closing point of yours: In a message dated 12/9/03 1:38:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Thus, the momentary aspect is essential. Momentary realities are > investigated by awareness of each reality that presents itself. Included > have to be all the moments of akusala, whether we like it or not. When I say > beyond control, I mean: they arise already in the process of cittas. This is > like a natural law (nyaama). But, there is a remedy. The development of > understanding of the presently arisen reality. The only remedy really. > ========================== The remedy at any moment consists of maintaining mindfulness of all that arises, whether pleasant or unpleasant to "look at," together with recollecting and renewing the understanding and right intention that one has so far developed based on prior practice and study of the Buddha's teachings. In addition to looking clearly at what arises, and, in fact, *in order* to do so, we need to actively *recall* what is moral and what is useful, not merely depending on automatically doing the right thing. I see right understanding and right intention, from the very beginning, in their most ordinary form leading to enhancement of the other six factors, which then, in turn, lead to higher-level understanding and intention and further enhancement of the other factors, each factor impacting each other factor, in rounds and rounds of an outward and upward spiral tending towards enlightenment and liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27851 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clung to (NUM;-)) Dear Nina & Steve (& Num), --- nina van gorkom wrote: Steve: > > Wouldn't "eye-sense" be "capable of being clung to" therefore making > > it an upadanakhandha, whether it was being clung to or not? > N: upaadi.n.na, clung to, this is usually said of those rupas of the body produced by kamma. See Dsgn lists. Soon we get this in the Tiika. Also a note in the Wheel 101 about: Discourse on Elephant's Footprint, which states this, and in a general sense it can also be used for the whole body, since it is clung to by conceit, craving and wrong view.< ..... I knew my comment would be controversial and added it at the end of the post because I knew I was walking on ice;-)That was sharp of you, Steve and thanks for reading my messages so carefully;-). I discussed these points with K.Sujin on the last trip and also repeated, like Steve, that any conditioned realities (except lokuttara cittas) were ‘capable of being clung to’ and therefore upadana khandha as we discussed before with BB’s helpful comments too. However, K.Sujin stopped me and stressed that upadana khandha applies just to what is experienced and therefore likely to be clung to at this moment. It depends on rapidly changing vipaka as to what is experienced through the sense doors as we discussed in the pig dung and inherent nature of rupas thread. In fact she asked me whether eyesense was experienced and I said of course it wasn’t. As you wrote to Larry, Nina, “eyesense is a hidden reality, you cannot touch it. But it is there, arising and falling away.” In other words, there may well be clinging to a concept of eyesense, but not to eyesense itself, being a ‘hidden’ or subtle rupa only capable of being experienced in the mind door process. Of course, the Abhidhamma lists all possibilities which is why I wrote: Sarah: >Clinging clings to rupa, vedana etc. While in theory upaadaanakkhandha can apply to any conditioned reality (except lokuttara cittas), the meaning, as I understand, refers to the reality experienced and clung to now. In other words, it refers to the arising and falling away of what is actually experienced. If eye-sense is not experienced and not clung to, it is not upadana khandha.< So, capable of being clung to as you say, Steve, but of course the teachings have to apply to realities now, I think. I may have overstated and there is always so much more to discuss about khandhas that we can also raise it again next time in Bkk. What I understood and mentioned made good sense to me, but I’ll appreciate any further comments either of you have. I can’t find Wheel 101. If the note isn’t too long, I’d be interested in it, otherwise never mind. Also do you have a Dhammasangani ref, otherwise I’ll look when I have time. Metta, Sarah I’m not sure how relevant it is, but as we’re trying to catch NUM’s attention, in a different context he was raising qus about the Mahapunnama Sutta, MN109, as I recall. In this sutta we read about the upadana khandhas rooted in desire. We read that ‘the clinging is neither the same as these five aggregates affected by clinging, nor is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates affected by clinging.It is the desire and lust in regard to the five aggregates affected by clinging that is the clinging there.’ The Buddha is then asked about the diversity in the desire regarding the upadana khandha and explains the various wishes or desires that may arise. Num, we’re all trying to get your attention - could you say something about kammaguna (sp?), pleasant rupas and the points. ================================================ 27852 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] my intro and thoughts ... Hi Alan, Thanks for continuing this discussion. --- ukvegans wrote: > Thanks very much for your e-mail. The dilemma I have between Yoga > (steeped in Hinduism) and Buddhism, is that I ultimately believe that > there is a Self (or immortal soul), which is against fundamental > buddhist belief :-) .... I think this is just honest.As other friends have commented here, we can repeat there is no self, but it doesn’t mean there is any direct understanding of experiences as anatta or that ‘self’ or ‘soul’ are seen to be mere concepts or illusions. I think it helps to begin to question what exactly is this Self we believe in and how it is experienced. This doesn’t mean we have to change our habits or beliefs over night. I liked this post which Ken H wrote a lot on this subject: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m21958.html .... > However, I do love the Buddha dharma which is very similar to > Patanjali's eight limbs of Yoga as a way to live one's life ... but I > have read that it is important, as one develops a more advanced > practice to concentrate on one path e.g. Yogic versus Buddhism. What > do you think ? ..... I think the best thing is to take it easy, live naturally and develop more understanding however one’s life unfolds. I’ve been doing yoga for as long as I’ve been studying Buddhism. At the yoga centre I visit, we recite a verse paying respect to Patanjali. There is much that I don’t agree with in the words, but it’s just part of the ritual and so I go along with it and don’t have any conflicts. There can be ‘Buddhist practice’ at any time - even in a Hindu temple. It always comes back to the present moment and present realities. For example, whilst we’re worrying about making the right choices or about results of future kamma or whether we can accept there is no self, what is being experienced? Surely it’s thinking and worrying and attachment to oneself and other experiences which can all be known, regardless of the time and place. ... > I have thought of trying to attend a different buddhist group as the > Manchester buddhist centre which is part of the FWBO, as the MBC > seemed a little too 'organised' if you know what I mean ... ? > > I long very much sometimes to be have more friends I have > things in common with (spirituality), and when I atteneded the > Manchester BC I did connect there with the people in the sangha. .... I think may of us will appreciate these feelings and have experienced them often. A very long time ago I visited one Manchester buddhist group with Nina, when she was invited to talk about abhidhamma to Lance Cousin’s group. But, I have no idea now about these centres - I’m out of touch. Alan, I sincerely hope you will stay with us long enough to consider us as your good friends in Dhamma. I’m sure you’ll find many friends here can totally relate to your dilemmas and feelings of spiritual isolation. I think you’ll find we’re a very friendly bunch. My brother and niece will be arriving shortly from M/C - perhaps after touring around with me for two weeks, they’ll be inspired to take more interest and then you can meet them on return;-) My niece is also a keen yogi. .... I > certainly do feel that I am suffering from panna (mind games) at the > moment and have 'stepped up' my time on meditation lately to try and > help with this, do you have any other ideas that may help ... ? ..... My no 1 suggestion is to keep asking questions and considering here on DSG. Ignore anything that is too difficult for now. Nina has written a book which you might find helpful called ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’. You can find it on line at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Others may give different advice;-) Lots of controversy on DSG. .... > You seem very experienced in the dharma Sarah - how did you come to > buddhism ? and what is your practice at this time ... ? .... I think I’ve just been reading and considering and listening for a while, but not experienced;-) How did I come to Buddhism? Hmmm.... I have to think. One summer while I was at uni studying psychology, I went to work on a kibbutz in Israel. I was reading books on different religions, the Bhagavad Gita, and so on, but I kept coming back to a chapter in a book on Buddhism and particularly the aspects on anatta. I’d long since rejected Christianity and was definitely looking for teachings that could be tested and proved and which could help me understand how the mind worked in a way that psychology was unable to. A year later, I was very determined to travel overland to India and pursue these ideas and seek further and also to visit yoga ashrams;-) In fact I pursued the Buddhist interests but never got to the yoga ashrams. ... >Also, > interested in how other members came to buddhism .. you can mail me > off line with longer replies to this question if you wish ?! .... I hope they all mail you on line so we can all share. What I gave above was the kind of answer I think you wished to hear. Another answer would be that if we can accept that for aeons and aeons life has continued on in different planes of existence, then we’ve heard different teachings over and over again and there are many complex causes as to why we may have such an interest in the Dhamma now. We can never work out all these factors. I look forward to hearing more from you, Alan. I look forward to more of your comments and qus. Please don’t mind if some of us are slow to reply at times. Metta, Sarah ======== 27853 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:21am Subject: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Dear Group, Just a thought - what should a *person* do if others indicate they believe them to have the two worst Defilements, i.e. ditthi (wrong view) and vicikiccha(sceptical doubt) and not only that, it is considered they also have the three basic Fetters - sakkaya-ditthi (personality belief), vicikiccha (sceptical doubt) and silabbataparamasa (attachment to rules and rituals). Laugh or cry? According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be done - no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? How,then, can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27854 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hang-ups and Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael, There are two or three posts I planned to write to you today, but no time and distracted on other threads;-) I have quotes on killing too, but pls be patient. Many thanks for your various comments. I can't do a dashed 'off the cuff number' to you either. I may leave this one to last to see if Ken H replies first too;-) Metta, Sarah ===== --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > An essence (sabhava), or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing > an > essence, is uncaused, independent of other phenomena, and not fabricated > > from other things. > > If an essence would come from causes and conditions, then it would be > fabricated. How could it be fabricated since essence does not depend on > another. > > If existence is through essence then there cannot be nonexistence. A > change > in essence is not tenable. An essential property is a necessary > property, > and it is incoherent to say that a thing loses a necessary property. > This is > eternalism, a view rejected by the Buddha. 27855 From: Alan Bell Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] more thoughts & my philosophy. Thanks Sarah and all for the replies thus far. I have studied and still practise the Buddha dharma and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras - and continue to take from them that which I feel is workable for me, if you like my own personal philosophy. I do not label myself a Buddhist, Yogi or even a vegan (even though I don't eat meat or dairy). I feel that to label oneself is to limit oneself :-) My own philosophy is based on common sense, most of the values or principles I live by are quite simple - but have come this way through my own practise and a likely elevation of conciousness ? In fact I believe that the more simple we live our lives the more at peace and content we become/remain. I lead an ethical life based on non harm to either myself or others, and also have the wisdom to know that I am not perfect and neither are other people ; this is part of surrendering to what is. What is my motivation for living this way ? - the understanding of kharma. I also try to lead a healthy lifestyle, I watch what I eat, I don't smoke, exercise and only drink alcohol in moderation. I also try to practise positive thinking and mindfulness throughout the day. Activities which I enjoy that support this is are meditation, yoga (asana) and chanting mantra (buddhist and hindu). I believe that we are here in this lifetime to grow and move from darkness to light, with the ultimate goal of opening our hearts. This is the greatest gift of life. We are here to shine, here to brighten all, brighten everything, banish darkness and shine radiantly ;-) Peace & light, Alan 27856 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa My dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, Just a thought - what should a *person* do if others indicate they believe them to have the two worst Defilements, i.e. ditthi (wrong view) and vicikiccha(sceptical doubt) and not only that, it is considered they also have the three basic Fetters - sakkaya-ditthi (personality belief), vicikiccha (sceptical doubt) and silabbataparamasa (attachment to rules and rituals). Laugh or cry? According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be done - no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? How,then, can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? metta and peace, Christine KKT: I see that the problem of Anatta perturbs you a lot, does it not? :-)) If you continue to see everything << according >> to Abhidharma then it is not for << real >> :-)) Why don't you try to feel, to sense this << self >> inside yourself? Answer for yourself, "What is it?" Can "it" do anything, control anything? Feel "it", sense "it" for << real >> Best wishes, KKT 27857 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/10/03 5:30:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > Just a thought - what should a *person* do if others indicate they > believe them to have the two worst Defilements, i.e. ditthi (wrong > view) and vicikiccha(sceptical doubt) and not only that, it is > considered they also have the three basic Fetters - sakkaya-ditthi > (personality belief), vicikiccha (sceptical doubt) and > silabbataparamasa (attachment to rules and rituals). Laugh or cry? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I would laugh heartily! And I would do so because theirs is a trivial observation almost always correctly made about any random person encountered, and, secondly, because I would most likely have no reason to take what they have to say seriously to begin with. (Who are they, and what do they know?) ----------------------------------------------- > According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be done - > no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Is that so? Is that what Abhidhamma maintains? Well, okay about there being no self to do anything - but the rest? Why in the world should anyone take the slightest interest in an area of thought which, contrary to what the Buddha provided in his teaching of 45 years recorded in the suttas, maintains that there is nothing to be done to put an end to suffering, and that either this end to suffering will happen (should appropriate conditions somehow arise) or not, but with nothing doable to affect the process? Why in the world should you or I or any of us pay even a moment's attention to a doctrine of despair which maintains that there are no voluntary actions that can be initiated which create conditions that set the ball rolling towards liberation and help keep that ball moving? I think that Abhidhamma, while not the direct word of the Buddha, is still far better than the picture you paint. I think that the hopelessness, total-lack-of-control take on Abhidhamma is an extreme interpretation put forward by some (and approximated in varying degrees by many) that skates on a tiny patch of thin ice right between the treacherous areas of lockstep determinism and utter randomness. I think it is a kind of nihilist position that is a dangerous near-enemy of the Dhamma. ------------------------------------------------- How,then, > > can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: By following the Buddha's prescription for the cultivation of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. By constantly reminding oneself of the teachings, and applying them. By being consistently kind and respectful, by calming the mind further with focussed meditation, and by being constantly watchful *with an eye* towards seeing the tilakkhana in all dhammas. With regard to this last, I have recently "discovered" that the Dhamma is to be seen right here and now in this psychophysical flow of experience with a richness and potential that is *amazing*. Just seeing, really seeing, how nothing at all (sights, for example) remain for even a moment is a revelation! The world speeds away at a breathtaking rate, perhaps infinite. How can one time the duration of what doesn't last at all? Other than the original teachings of the Buddha, I find no books or papers these days that are of any real help to me, but this lack is more than balanced by the richness of support that reality itself provides. -------------------------------------------------- > > metta and peace, > Christine > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27858 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:29am Subject: His 10-fold Powers! Friends: The 10 Powers of a Buddha: 1: He knows what are the causes & not-causes of any event & thing. He knows the possible as possible & the impossible as impossible. 2: He knows the results of any past, present & future action. 3: He knows the destination of any way, path & course. 4: He knows the diversity of forms in any world & dimension. 5: He knows the diverse character & inclination of any being. 6: He knows the different abilities & possibilities of any being. 7: He knows the obstruction, clearing, reaching, emerging, release & concentration of any meditation. 8: He knows and remembers his prior lives in every detail. 9: He knows & sees the decease & rearising of the various beings. 10: He knows directly the elimination of the mental fermentations. --oo0oo-- Source: The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha MN [I 69] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X The Book of Gradual Sayings AN [V 32] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 In equanimity & even ease. Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. Friendship is truly Greatest ! 27859 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Dear Ken H, op 09-12-2003 20:29 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Remember Brian at Cooran: He had never been in the least > bit interested in nama and rupa; While we were talking > about rebirth and the difficulties in accepting the > theory of it, suddenly, the penny dropped. He saw the > world purely in terms of impersonal nama and rupa (cuti- > citta and all that), and it was all totally sensible and > acceptable. He was genuinely excited about it: genuinely > grateful to us for explaining it that way. So, whenever > we have problems dealing with stories, we should be like > Brian. N: This is really striking. Actually, that is what A. Sujin means, saying: what about the present moment. It may irritate some people, and help others, depending on their accumulations. Can you tell us more about conversations afterwards with Brian? But I also understand Christine: nama and rupa now, that is not what she is waiting to hear. She has terrible experiences first hand. But still, what you said, citta and all that)>, is the key to the remedy. This is why the Buddha said that the cycle is dukkha. The Buddha himself could not stop kamma from producing vipaka. It is the natural law of kamma, kamma nyaama. After he attained enlightenment he said, to whom as a teacher he could pay respect? To the Dhamma. Now I quote from my : Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: Fixedness of Law regarding all things. There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: 1. temperature, season. 2. plant life. 3. kamma. 4. functions of citta in the processes. 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. N: As regards kamma: akusala kamma produces an undesirable result and kusala kamma produces a desirable result, and this is niyaama, a fixed order of dhammas. It cannot be altered. As regards functions of citta: cittas which experience objects through the senses and the mind-door arise in series or processes of citta. Each of the cittas arising in a process performs its own function. For example, when cittas in the eye-door process experience visible object, seeing-consciousness performs the function of seeing, and shortly afterwards kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in that process, which perform their own function. There is a certain fixed order of cittas within a process and this order cannot be altered. The ³Gradual Sayings² (I, 285) Ch XIV, §134, Appearance states: "Monks, whether there be an appearance or non-appearance of a Tathaagata, this causal law of nature (dhaatudhamma.t.thitataa), this orderly fixing of things (dhammaniyaamataa) prevails, namely, All phenomena are impermanent..." The same is said with regard to the nature of dukkha and anattaa.> But, the Buddha gave us the solution to get out of this cycle of dukkha, namely the development of right understanding. I apppreciate it that James keeps on reminding us, do we experience what we say about nama and rupa? Or, when we say, there is nama and rupa now? No, not yet, but this does not keep us from beginning to understand at least in theory that this is the way. We have accumulated also the latent tendency of wrong view, but intellectual right understanding stemming from listening and considering is one of the conditions for insight. The processes of citta are also dukkha: clinging arises, and then conditioned by it aversion, all those tears we shed. This is part of nyaama, it seems to occur automatically. It just happens. I am thinking of the sutta (S II) Victor is so much impressed by about the amount of tears, compared to the ocean. When Christine helps others, there are metta and compassion and at such moments there is no room for aversion, no tears. It is good she is in the position to help many people, anumodana. Her situation also makes me think of Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, (II, 113) The goad. A simile of four kinds of horses is used, who are agitated by the goad in degrees, to the extent of being pricked to the very bone. This is compared to a man when he hears about the death and affliction of someone in another village, or sees it himself, or experiences the death and affliction of a family member. And the fourth case: <.. but he himself is stricken with painful bodily feelings, grievous, sharp, racking, distracting, discomforting, that drain the life away. Thereat he is stirred, he feels agitation. Being so stirred he strictly applies himself. Thus applied he both realizes with his own person the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom...> The Co adds that magga-panna with insight realizes nibbana. Such grievous situations that are all around us can remind us of the necessity to develop panna which eventually is the condition for being freed of dukkha. It gives us a sense of urgency. We need courage to go on developing understanding. Nyaama, the law of Dhamma is not fatalism, it is as it is, but the Buddha gave us the remedy. Now back to my translation of latent tendencies, I need some more sobering up! Nina. 27860 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Dear Michael, I am just wondering whether you see too much behind this term sabhava. Can it be a matter of translation? It just means: each dhamma has its own characteristic, and speaking of conditioned dhamma, it falls away immediately. No question of essentialism. Seeing has its own characteristic, quite different from thinking or from hearing. We begin to learn about these different characteristics (visesa lakkha.na) when they appear, and there is no need to think about them. This is the beginning of insight, leading eventually to more understanding of the three general characteristics, sama~n~na lakkha.na, of impermanence, dukkha and anatta. I know I have said something similar before, but perhaps I did not express myself clearly. Nina. op 09-12-2003 20:30 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > An essence (sabhava), or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing an > essence, is uncaused, independent of other phenomena, and not fabricated > from other things. > > If an essence would come from causes and conditions, then it would be > fabricated. How could it be fabricated since essence does not depend on > another. > > If existence is through essence then there cannot be nonexistence. A change > in essence is not tenable. An essential property is a necessary property, > and it is incoherent to say that a thing loses a necessary property. This is > eternalism, a view rejected by the Buddha. 27861 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:07am Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 08 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The Dhamma practitioner has sat for an hour as a start in his early morning meditation. Through out the whole hour, he has put his mind on his breaths. He was fully aware of his breath. As soon as he started his sitting meditation, he put his mind on his breath. He had been well concentrated on his breath. He knows the start of his inhaling breath. He knows continuing inhaling. He knows near end of his breath. He knows the end of his breath. He knows there is a minor pause at the end of his inhalation of in-breath. He knows the beginning of his exhaling breath. He knows his continuous exhalation. He knows near end of his exhalation. He knows the end of his exhalation. He knows there is a long pause after exhalation before the next breath starts. He is fully aware of the whole breath including pauses and inhalation and exhalation. His mindfulness is so sharp that his whole mind is on his breath only. He knows his breathing if it is long as long and if short as short. As there is no other thought, his mind is well calm. Each breathing calms down him and he is quite peaceful. He knows the whole body of breath that is he knows the start, continuation, end, pauses and long, short, stop, harsh, tender, near stopping etc. He is taking the real object. He is not distracted. The real object is the sense of touch of air to his nostrils. He does not follow the air that goes in, which actually cannot be really followed. If this is done, it is just imagination. What he senses is touch. This real object touch or Photthabba Arammana strikes Kayapasada or sense-base at the nostril. There arises Kayavinnana Citta ( touch-consciousness ) like a spark. When an iron rod is striked against an iron surface, there arise sparks. This point the arising of spark occur at an exact moment. The whole process of this is comparable to arising of Kayavinnana Citta at breathing meditation. 1. Iron rod ..... touch-sense or Photthabba Arammana or object of touch 2. Iron surface.. Kayapassada or Kayaayatana or body sense-base 3. Sparks ..... Kayavinnana Citta 4. Contact of rod and surface ...Phassa or contact 5. Heat ........... Vedana or feeling 6. The act of striking...Cetana or volition 7. Perception of iron...Sanna or perception ( if wood there will not be sparks..but remember iron as iron and striking causes sparks ) 8. The exact point of contact...Ekaggata or one-pointedness 9. Right direction...Manasikara or attention ( if rod went to wrong direction it would not strike iron surface and there would not arise sparks ) 10. Occurrence ... Jivitindriya or mental life ( occurrence of the whole event ) Number 1.is for Rupa which is external ( sensation of touch cold/warm, harsh/tender, rush/gentle ) Number 2. is for Rupa which is internal. ( nostrils, upper lip ) Number 3. is for Citta which knows the sensation of touch. Number 4. to 10 are 7 Cetasikas that arise along with Kayavinnana Citta. They are in serial as stated in number 4. Phassa 5. Vedana 6. Cetana 7. Sanna 8. Ekaggata 9. Manasikara 10. Jivitindriya The iron rod is striked against the iron surface. Cetana acts this. So Cetana is chief offender and he is guilty of his act and this past act become Kamma as a potential to give rise to dhamma according to the act and exist as long as Satta concerned is in the Samsara. Instantaneously, the surface and rod touch. That is contact. It is Phassa. Phassa's function is to meet two parties together. As sparks arise heat arises. This is feeling. It is Vedana. Vedana's function is to feel. At the time of contact, sparks have to arise as both are iron. If surface is wood, iron will not be recognized and so does in case of rod and sparks will not arise. This perception as iron causing sparks is Sanna or perception. The sparks arise at the place of contact. They arise at the exact point. That point is Ekaggata or one-pointedness. The rod is directed to the surface otherwise there will not arise sparks. This steering function is done by Manasikara Cetasikas. The whole occurrence happens and exists. This is Jivitindriya Cetasikas. It is mental life. So 4 to 10 are 7 Cetasikas that always arise with each Citta. They arise at the time of arising of Citta, arise at the same object ( rod, Arammana ), home on the same base as Citta does ( iron surface, Kayapasada ), and they all disappear at the time of passing away of Citta. These are realities. If this practice can be continued steadfastly Panna will arise sooner or later. There is no person in the whole process. There is no permanent thing in this process. It is Anicca. There is nothing to be assumed as good and all are Dukkha. No one can control the whole process. It is Anatta. In actual sense, this working knowledge is sufficient for the practice. Awareness to the whole body of breathing as stated above is a good Sati. It is Samma-Sati, one of 8 Magganga or Noble Eightfold Path. Moment after moment putting on the process of breathing is effort-making. If it goes steadfastly, it will becomes Samma-Vayama. If the whole mind is on the process of breathing and at the exact point of a place in a body ( nostril ), then the mind is well concentrated and becomes Samma-Samadhi. Putting of the mind on the process of breathing itself is the work of mind done by Vitakka and this mind power becomes Samma-Sankappa. If these realities, ultimate realities are understood as just Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and the problems arise from these dhamma due to attachment which again is not knowing of their ultimate sense, if this is put down and released all will cease and the way of ceassation is all these 8 Maggana called Samma-Vaca, Samma-Kammanta, Samma-Ajiva, Samma-Sati, Samma-Vayama, Samma-Samadhi, Samma-Sankappa, and Samma-Ditthi. This realization as Dukkha, cause of Dukkha, cessation of Dukkha, and the way to cessation is called Samma-Ditthi. However, actual practice will not be so easy to this degree. So other aspects of Mahasatipatthana Sutta have to be continued. May you all practise Mahasatipatthana to get through the Samsara With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing Moderator JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group 27862 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 0:02pm Subject: Re: hello! Hi Star Kid Anne-Catherine! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James! > > How are you? Thank you for your reply, I really > apreciated your letter. > Now I know why you understand Phillip and other kids > as well. :) > > There are more questions which I like to ask you: > 1. What do you mean by 'Nowadays, Buddhist countries > aren't really all that Buddhist anyway'? James: Hmm...I had a feeling you were going to ask what I meant by this. I am not sure if I can explain well without offending some people who might read this, but I will try. I am reminded of a line from the movie "Seven Years in Tibet". One of the Tibetan people tells a famous mountain climber from Austria, after he shows her some pictures of him winning various awards, "This is another great difference between our civilization and yours. You admire the man who pushes his way to the top in any walk of life while we admire the man who abandons his ego." This, to me, is a good definition for a truly Buddhist country. A country that is truly Buddhist needs to not only have the majority of the people claim to be `Buddhist', they also need to adhere to the principals of Buddhism. Tibet, unfortunately, was savagely invaded by China and had its strong Buddhist identity badly trampled, though not completely lost. I have been to Thailand twice and it is predominately Buddhist in name only. In Thailand, corruption, vice, and materialism are as rampant as in non-Buddhist countries. I am in correspondence with a monk who lives in Sri Lanka, another Buddhist country, and he informs me that it isn't much different there. Nowadays you can find pockets of people who truly adhere to Buddhist philosophy but not an entire country. For this reason, I know that I don't have to live in a Buddhist country to be Buddhist. I have to try to maintain the philosophy of Buddhism wherever I happen to live. This isn't always easy so it is nice to belong to Buddhist groups on the Internet where I can communicate with others who feel as passionately about Buddhism as I do. I don't always agree with their views about Buddhism, but it is at least nice that they care enough to argue! ;-) And I get to write letters to you nice Star Kids about Buddhism! That is enough for me. > 2. Do you know why Buddhism isn't a part of the > culture in the Middle East, Europe and North/South > America. Why did the monks travel to China, Tibet? > (East) James: I believe that the spread of Buddhism predominately had to do with geography. Over 2,500 years ago, when the Buddha was alive, they didn't have airplanes, trains, cars, and other ways to get around quickly. Since great land masses are separated by vast oceans, Buddhism didn't have the chance to reach every part of the world. Traveling Buddhist monks were initially the ones to spread the teachings of the Buddha and they could only travel so far by boat and horseback. Also, the indigenous peoples of Asia could easily adapt Buddhism to the religious beliefs they already had; these early religions included beliefs in spirits, gods, and ancestor worship. They could accommodate new beliefs into these old belief systems, or simply replace them if wanted. However, in those countries with a strong Judeo/Christian belief system, new beliefs are less tolerated. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" is a strong tenet of the Judeo/Christian belief and therefore discourages other religious ideas. These two factors meant that Buddhism didn't spread to all areas of the world. > > Please reply, thank you for taking your time and I > will study hard in school :) James: You are very welcome. I am glad that you are working hard in school! :-) It will be very important to the rest of your life. > > Anne-Catherine :) Metta, James 27863 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:18am Subject: anapanasati 6 b anapanasati 6 b As regards the clause: ³(XIV) I shall breathe in... breathe out contemplating fading away², the Visuddhimagga states that there are two kinds of fading away, namely: ³fading away as destruction² which is the ³momentary dissolution of formations² (conditioned realities) and ³absolute fading away² which is nibbåna. The text (Visuddhimagga VIII, 235) states: Œ... Contemplation of fading away is insight and it is the path, which occur as the seeing of these two. It is when he possesses this twofold contemplation that it can be understood of him ³He trains thus, I shall breathe in... shall breathe out contemplating fading away.² ¹ The same method of explanation is applied to the clause ³contemplating cessation² (XV). And with regard to the clause (XVI) ³contemplating relinquishment², the Visuddhimagga states: ³relinquishment is of two kinds too, that is to say, relinquishment as giving up, and relinquishment as entering into.² ³Giving up² is the giving up of defilements, and ³entering into² is the entering into nibbåna, the Visuddhimagga explains. We read: Nina 27864 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Nina, I don’t think it is a matter of translation but just a reflection of how an unenlightened mind works. There is a natural ingrained tendency to see things either as truly existing by reason of some intrinsic essence or the exact opposite as non existing at all. It is quite clear that labeling the dhammas as sabhava has put them into a category of true existence. The messages in this list clearly show that this is the way dhammas are regarded. Dhammas are quoted as paramatha – ultimate reality, they truly exist. There is an important difference between bhava and sabhava. Bhava means existence as conditioned, impermanent and no-self, or in other words no true existence since it lacks an essence. Existence in the suttas is always conditioned and something conditioned by definition has no essence (if an essence comes from causes and conditions then it is fabricated, and it cannot be since essence does not depend on another). Characteristic does not help much either because as I understand each of the dhammas is considered to have a distinguishing characteristic, an independently existent property, and hence, an essence. I am not negating that things don’t have characteristics but I am arguing against those characteristics being intrinsic, that they exist inherently. Entities and their characteristics are mutually dependent and therefore have no inherent existence. As I may have said before, the Abhidhamma is an excellent tool to understand human psychology but falls short as a correct reflection of the philosophical ideas expounded by the Buddha. Metta Michael >From: nina van gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:18:26 +0100 > >Dear Michael, >I am just wondering whether you see too much behind this term sabhava. Can >it be a matter of translation? It just means: each dhamma has its own >characteristic, and speaking of conditioned dhamma, it falls away >immediately. No question of essentialism. Seeing has its own >characteristic, >quite different from thinking or from hearing. We begin to learn about >these >different characteristics (visesa lakkha.na) when they appear, and there is >no need to think about them. This is the beginning of insight, leading >eventually to more understanding of the three general characteristics, >sama~n~na lakkha.na, of impermanence, dukkha and anatta. >I know I have said something similar before, but perhaps I did not express >myself clearly. >Nina. >op 09-12-2003 20:30 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > > An essence (sabhava), or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing >an > > essence, is uncaused, independent of other phenomena, and not fabricated > > from other things. > > > > If an essence would come from causes and conditions, then it would be > > fabricated. How could it be fabricated since essence does not depend on > > another. > > > > If existence is through essence then there cannot be nonexistence. A >change > > in essence is not tenable. An essential property is a necessary >property, > > and it is incoherent to say that a thing loses a necessary property. >This is > > eternalism, a view rejected by the Buddha. > > > > 27865 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:16pm Subject: Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi Christine, Try a little experiment (no drugs involved :-)). Take an object, any object. Let any thoughts about the object go. Then become angry about the object. Were you able to feel angry at will? Let the anger go. Now feel happy about the object. Were you able to feel happy at will? Try applying different mindstates. Does it work? Clearly, feelings are not linked to objects. Feelings are linked to intention. If you find that you can intend, while a book is telling you that you can't, perhaps you should intend to put the book down :- ) Peace, love and joy Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be done - > no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? How,then, > can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27866 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 12/10/2003 2:53:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Characteristic does not help much either because as I understand each of the > dhammas is considered to have a distinguishing characteristic, an > independently existent property, and hence, an essence. I am not negating > that things don’t have characteristics but I am arguing against those > characteristics being intrinsic, that they exist inherently. Entities and > their characteristics are mutually dependent and therefore > have no inherent > existence. ======================= What entities are there, Michael, to exist interdependently with their characteristics? I don't believe in entities. Are the dhammas anything other than their so-called characteristics? What characteristic does hardness have other than hardness? In any case, as I see it, the problem with saying that 'sabhava' means "own nature" or "own characteristic" lies in saying "own", not in saying "nature" or "characteristic". The condition/characteristic of hardness is a dependent arising, and thus is not self-existent. But it is still true that hardness occurs and can be distinguished from warmth, and that seems to indicate distinguishing characteristics. With metta, Howard 27867 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:52pm Subject: Vism.XIV 49, 50, 51, 52, 53 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 49. 2. The ear [sensitivity] is to be found inside the [feature of the] ear-hole with its accessories in the place that is shaped like a finger-stall and surrounded by fine brown hairs. It is assisted by the elements in the way aforesaid. It is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is equipped with colour, etc.; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for ear-consciousness, and the rest. 50. 3. The nose [sensitivity] is to be found inside [the feature of the] nose-hole with its accessories in the place shaped like a goat's hoof. It has assistance, consolidation, and maintenance in the way aforesaid; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for nose-consciousness, and the rest. 51. 4. The tongue [sensitivity] is to be found in the middle of the [feature of the] tongue with its accessories in the place shaped like a lotus petal tip. It has assistance, consolidation and maintenance in the way aforesaid; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for tongue-consciousness, and the rest. 52. 5. The body [sensitivity] is to be found everywhere, like a liquid that soaks a layer of cotton, in this physical body where there is matter that is clung to.23 It has assistance, consolidation and maintenance in the way aforesaid too; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for body-consciousness, and the rest. 53. Like snakes, crocodiles, birds, dogs, and jackals that gravitate to their own respective resorts, that is to say, ant-hills, water, space, villages, and charnal grounds, so the eye, etc., should be regarded as gravitating to their own respective resorts, that is to say, visible data, and so on (cf. DhsA. 314). --------------------- Note 23. Upaadi.n.na (also upaadi.n.naka) is pp. of upaadiyati (he clings), from which the noun upaadaana (clinging) also comes. Upaadi.n.na-(ka-) ruupa (clung-to matter) = kammaja-ruupa (kamma-born matter); see Dhs. par.653. It is vaguely renderable by 'organic or sentient or living matter'; technically, it is matter of the four primaries that is 'clung-to' (upaadi.n.na) or 'derived' (upaadaaya) by kamma. Generally taken as a purely Abhidhamma term (Dhs., p.1), it nevertheless occurs in the Suttas at M.i,185 in the same sense. 27868 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Howard, See below ... >From: upasaka@a... >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:00:16 -0500 > >Hi, Michael - > >In a message dated 12/10/2003 2:53:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, >mbeisert@h... writes: > > > Characteristic does not help much either because as I understand each of >the > > dhammas is considered to have a distinguishing characteristic, an > > independently existent property, and hence, an essence. I am not >negating > > that things don’t have characteristics but I am arguing against those > > characteristics being intrinsic, that they exist inherently. Entities >and > > their characteristics are mutually dependent and therefore > > have no inherent > > existence. >======================= > What entities are there, Michael, to exist interdependently with their >characteristics? I don't believe in entities. Are the dhammas anything >other than their so-called characteristics? What characteristic does >hardness have other than hardness? MB: Well , as I understand, the Abhidhamma commentaries consider hardness to be an intrinsic characteristic of earth element. > In any case, as I see it, the problem with saying that 'sabhava' means >"own nature" or "own characteristic" lies in saying "own", not in saying >"nature" or "characteristic". The condition/characteristic of hardness is a >dependent arising, and thus is not self-existent. But it is still true that >hardness occurs and can be distinguished from warmth, and that seems to >indicate distinguishing characteristics. MB: Yes, I agree with what you are saying. Metta Michael > >With metta, >Howard > > > 27869 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Dear Nina, ------------ > N: This is really striking. Actually, that is what A. Sujin means, saying: what about the present moment. It may irritate some people, and help others, depending on their accumulations. Can you tell us more about conversations afterwards with Brian? -------------- There wasn't much conversation immediately afterwards because Brian was late for a social appointment. But, even as he walked to his car, he kept repeating, "That's bloody marvellous! I really like that -- just phenomena, no stories -- thanks for explaining it that way." When he came back next morning, the enthusiasm was still there but I don't know if I, or any of the others, was able to add anything particularly helpful. He had an interesting misconception of 'nama and rupa' which didn't mean much to me until, coincidentally, I read this post of yours. He seemed to think that 'nama' was the laws of nature and 'rupa' was the phenomena to which the laws applied: -------------- N: > Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: Fixedness of Law regarding all things. There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: 1. temperature, season. 2. plant life. 3. kamma. 4. functions of citta in the processes. 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. ----------------- It's a pity I wasn't aware of that, it would have struck a cord with Brian, I think. Oh well, there's always next time :-) Meanwhile, thank you for explaining it to me. I have read it before but without it's having much impact. Now, to use your words, it is really striking. It gives me added appreciation of what you remind of us here: "The Buddha himself could not stop kamma from producing vipaka. It is the natural law of kamma, kamma nyaama. After he attained enlightenment he said, to whom as a teacher he could pay respect? To the Dhamma. Thanks Nina, 'bloody marvellous!' :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27870 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 49, 50, 51, 52, 53 "The ear [sensitivity] is to be found inside the [feature of the] ear-hole with its accessories in the place that is shaped like a finger-stall and surrounded by fine brown hairs." Hi all, In case you were wondering, a finger stall is a sheath for the finger, like a thimble: http://monk.monk.ca/cgi-bin/webimage.cgi?58-900&R0.49 Larry 27871 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness dear KenH, Nina and Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken H, > op 09-12-2003 20:29 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > > Remember Brian at Cooran: He had never been in the least > > bit interested in nama and rupa; While we were talking > > about rebirth and the difficulties in accepting the > > theory of it, suddenly, the penny dropped. He saw the > > world purely in terms of impersonal nama and rupa (cuti- > > citta and all that), and it was all totally sensible and > > acceptable. He was genuinely excited about it: genuinely > > grateful to us for explaining it that way. So, whenever > > we have problems dealing with stories, we should be like > > Brian. > > N: This is really striking. Actually, that is what A. Sujin means, saying: > what about the present moment. It may irritate some people, and help others, > depending on their accumulations. Can you tell us more about conversations > afterwards with Brian? > But I also understand Christine: nama and rupa now, that is not what she is > waiting to hear. She has terrible experiences first hand. But still, what > you said, (cuti-> citta and all that)>, is the key to the remedy. This is why the > Buddha said that the cycle is dukkha. The Buddha himself could not stop > kamma from producing vipaka. I have been following this thread, be it briefly, and thought that the Buddha taught the way out of Samsara because of these painful things that happen to beings. He had so much compassion and knowledge I imagine it wasn't an easy load to carry, esp. when he 'choose' to hang around [so to speak] and teach the Dhamma to us fools, some of us didn't want to listen, wanted to go on and on, to continue to feel, hear, see, suffer. Christine, I know your strong accumulations for justice, fairness and equality - remember our discussion in the back of Betty's brother-in-law's vehicle while we drove round Chiangmai? I sensed then that you probably suffer along with those you care for - btw, did you read that small article on the Dog that I sent you? I'm not saying that these people actually 'want' to suffer, no one does, but I believe for the sake of liberation, one can only save oneself, by developing the right understanding of this present moment, to know this moment is only nama and rupa and very transitory. Once there is the realization that it can't be any other way, then there is a degree of freedom. I remember when my brother and I were young kids, he asked me to stand with my back to the forbidden-to-touch clock on the mantlepiece, and asked me if I couldn't see it how did I know it existed. I don't know what his motive was, but it was a condition for me to start wondering about this phenomenon, and my point here is, that much of our days are spent in stories, even horrible stories about atrocious things. In reality, it is sound, visible object, thinking, feeling etc all real and can be known for what they really are, impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 27872 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] my intro and thoughts ... Dear Alan, It was simple for me. My husband had to work in Thailand and so we lived there for almost five years. I learnt Thai and Buddhism. How? I asked and asked and asked questions to my friend in the Dhamma Acharn Sujin. It all begins with questioning. What you do is right. Then you will slowly come to read more and when it interests you you will reflect more. It all works because of conditions. Later on you feel that you need to learn more and more details. But nothing has to be forced. You also will discover that you have more defilements than you ever thought of before, but this is a gain. Good luck with your study, Nina. op 10-12-2003 11:11 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: >> Also, >> interested in how other members came to buddhism .. you can mail me >> off line with longer replies to this question if you wish ?! > .... > I hope they all mail you on line so we can all share. 27873 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] my intro and thoughts ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: >> You also will discover that you have more defilements than you ever thought > of before, but this is a gain. > Good luck with your study, > ======== Dear Nina, three of my students who have been translating your book (for over 2 years)come to see me on mondays to discuss the work. They keep having to rewrite sections because their understanding is maturing . One of them said this week that she has been so surprsed to find out that she has so much ignorance and desire because she had always thought of herself as good. I said this is all we are because smasara is the Paticcasamuppada, is the khandhas which include and are perpetuated by ignorance and desire. robert 27874 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi, Herman (and Christine) - In a message dated 12/10/03 8:41:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > If you find that you can intend, while a book is telling > you that you can't, perhaps you should intend to put the book down :-) > ======================== I LOVE it, Herman!! ;-)) With intentional metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27875 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 12/10/03 11:21:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > What entities are there, Michael, to exist interdependently with their > >characteristics? I don't believe in entities. Are the dhammas anything > >other than their so-called characteristics? What characteristic does > >hardness have other than hardness? > > MB: Well , as I understand, the Abhidhamma commentaries consider hardness to > > be an intrinsic characteristic of earth element. > ====================== Mmm, maybe so. As far as I'm concerned, I have no clue as to what the "earth element" is supposed to be - I've never experienced it, but (degrees of) hardness, softness, smoothness, roughness, warmth, cold, etc are actual experiences for me, they are all "rupas", they come and go, arising from conditions, and that's pretty much all I know about touch-objects. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27876 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > > Well , as I understand, the Abhidhamma commentaries consider hardness to > be an intrinsic characteristic of earth element. > >========= Dear Michael, I might have misunderstood but are you suggesting that the commentaries thought earth element was diferent from hardness. Like it was some THING separate from the characteristic? That would be a real misinterpretation. You see the hardness is the earth element The majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the following to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39. It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas." The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no dhammas devoid of their own characteristics this is said for the purpose of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such entities as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these dhammas are discovered as actually real actualties. And although there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known , acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas" It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc. this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the change of dhammas. RobertK 27877 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 0:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael, You wrote to Nina: --------------- > (if an essence comes from causes and conditions then it is fabricated, and it cannot be since essence does not depend on another). ---------------- Your whole argument seems to have come down to 'essence does not depend on another.' It certainly doesn't, I agree with you there. Dosa, for example is inherently akusala; that characteristic does not depend on someone's point of view. I can claim all the self-righteousness in the world but it won't make dosa kusala. This is why the teaching of absolute reality is irresistible; it takes out all the ambiguity. In conventional reality, everything is ambiguous; nothing can be known unequivocally; there is always a rational argument for and against. Only in absolute reality is there absoluteness. So, in that sense, essence does mean 'not dependent.' HOWEVER, that's as far as it goes. Essence does not mean 'not dependent' in the sense of 'not a part of dependent origination.' Paramattha dhammas do arise and cease in dependence on conditions; there is no doubt about that. It seems that all this fuss has been over two meanings of the word 'dependent.' I am glad to have cleared it up. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27878 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] my intro and thoughts ... Dear Nina, Alan, Christine & All, --- nina van gorkom wrote: >Later on you feel that you need to learn more and > more details. But nothing has to be forced. > You also will discover that you have more defilements than you ever > thought > of before, but this is a gain. ..... Yes, this is just how I see it. A great gain. Whether we read messages about the Dhamma, listen to good friends or read the texts, we’re reminded more and more of the extent of our subtle and course wrong views and all other defilements arising countless times in a day. Of course, sometimes it’s difficult to hear and appreciate reminders (due to yet more defilements such as ignorance, views, aversion, attachment and conceit), but it is the wise reflection and attention to all these details and those about the other actualities or truths that makes the path become more apparent. Gradually there’s no conflict at all when we hear there’s no self to do or control or have defilements and yet there is a way, a development, which leads to the eradication of defilements and the end of suffering. It sounds like a conundrum or riddle, but it’s not. When I hear or read helpful reminders about the truth and am able to listen (which is not always by any means), it’s a condition to really pay respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha for making these truths available to me. Metta, Sarah p.s Alan, thank you for sharing more of your simple and healthy philosophy. We have plenty of radiant lights here - you’re in good company;-) ======= 27879 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Ken O (& Christine), Sorry for the delay, Ken O, --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Just a simple question, every now and then, there is this word about > wise attention. What is it? Does it equate to panna or sati or > both? Vice versa what is unwise attention. .... I understand wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) to arise in the javana process WITH panna and sati. As you know, manasikaara is a universal cetasika with its own characteristic, so when it arises with wholesome cittas, it’s yoniso and vice versa with ayoniso (unwise). Usually when we read about it in the texts, it’s referring to wise attention arising with satipatthana. For example, in MN2,Sabbaasava Sutta, we read (~Naa.namoli/Bodhi transl): In the note given by the translators it says: “Wise attention(yoniso manasikaara) is glossed as attention that is the right means (upaaya), on the right track (patha). It is explained as mental advertence, consideration, orpreoccupation that accords with the truth, namely, attention to the impermanent as impermanent, etc. Unwise attention (ayoniso manasikaara) is attention that is the wrong means, on the wrong track (uppatha), contrary to the truth, namely, attention to the impermanent as permanent, the painful as pleasurable, what is not self as self, and what is fould as beautiful. Unwise attention, MA [comy] informs us, is at the root of the round of existence, for it causes ignorance and craving to increase; wise attention is at the root of liberation from the round, since it leads to the development of the Noble Eightfold Path. MA sums up the point of this passage thus: the destruction of the taints is for one who knows how to arouse wise attention and who sees to it that unwise attention does not arise.” Here I take wise attention to be referring to yoniso manasikaara, accompanied by panna, sati etc. I know you will read the last sentence as referring to wholesome cittas and not to any self that has to do anything, Ken O;-) Sometimes, it’s just used for any wise reflection. E.g, Vism 1, 85: “’Reflecting wisely,he uses the robe pnly for protection from the cold....”- Other times it’s specifically being used for developed panna.E.g, Vism 1V,53: “Herein, wise attention given to the profitable, etc, is attention occurring in penetration of individual essences and of [the three] general characteristics.” Here it’s used (as is common) to refer to attention with wise reflection or theoretical understanding as necessary conditions. E.g,Vism X1: “...for wise attention, hearing the Good Dhamma, etc, are a condition only for the profitable, while the opposite kinds are a condition forthe unprofitable.” Your questions are always good and never simple for me;-) I always look forward to reading all your contributions. Metta, Sarah p.s Chris, in another post on this thread (27750) you asked about developing panna and so on. This can and is done, but not by 'me'. Nothing is 'random or accidental'. You also wrote "If 'I' can't choose, how come 'I' get to pay the kammic bill? Good qu and the truth is 'you' don't. It seems conventionally that you can 'choose to read Dhamma', 'focus attention' and experience good and bad results, but in truth there really are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas at work;-) ============================================== 27880 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, Thanks for replying, I never mind how long it takes. I appreciate it. --- "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote: > Hello Sarah, and thank-you for your interest. Many apologies for > taking so long to get back with you. I have been busy responding to > over a hundred and 50 emails a day since I posted the original message > that you have so kindly responded to. Fortunately that flow of email > has slowed down enough for me to get back on line to check on the > responses to my post. .... You certainly sound very busy. Just two or three a day keep me busy enough;-). .... > Since you mentioned that my bio is about the past, and you inquired > into my present, then I can say that in my present I am more happy and > fulfilled than I can ever recall being, but since I practice > moment-to-moment mindfulness, then I am aware that most of my days and > night I feel more happy and content than I can ever recall being. .... I’m glad to hear you’re feeling so happy and content. What do you mean by practicing ‘moment-to-moment mindfulness’? (pls don’t consider any questioning and clarifying as unfriendly in any way, Jeff.) .... > I am also aware that many of the experiences that I mentioned in the > post that responded to are also part of my present as well as my > moment-to-moment experience for a number of years, such as awareness > of an aura and the upper 4 chakras. .... OK, thanks. I think there are different kinds of ‘awareness’,as the term is used, and they are not necessarily all wholesome. Awareness of auras and chakras can be very, very useful,especially for healing etc, but it doesn’t have anything to do with awareness as in satipatthana as I understand. It’s not necessary to have ever heard the Buddha’s teachings for this, whereas those who have developed satipatthana may have no awareness of auras. .... >And, during this morning's > meditation I had pleasant arisings to the 4th jhana, which is typical > for me, as well as the rising of "energy." ..... I’m also doubtful that we use terms like ‘4th jhana’ in the same way at all. ..... > As for the "I" when I refer to myself, this is a language that is > based on self references I use it in much the same way you use the > term. I speak of this one, who is typing this message to you, that > one who will be reading it. But, I know that this is not me, I am not > this, and this is not mine. ..... I’m glad to hear it. As we discuss quite often here, ideas of self can creep in often whenever there is an idea of doing something in particular in order to have more awareness with an idea that 'we' can do it, for example. I also read your other post ‘jhana is ecstasy’ with interest, Jeff. I appreciated your definitions and references. I don’t believe I’ve seen a single post on DSG in which ‘jhana’ is ‘regarded as a dirty word’, but perhaps you meant elsewhere. You’re welcome to try and find one here;-). You mention that ecstasy is used to describe the experience of enlightenment, but of course as you know, jhana is not any enlightenment. You refer in your quotes to ‘pleasure (bliss)’. This would refer to sukha and piti, I believe, sometimes translated as bliss or pleasant feeling (sukha) and joy or rapture (piti). The difficulty is, I think, that we assume these states are wholesome when they arise, but usually they’re unwholesome sukha and piti accompanying attachment. Indeed all kinds of attachment, accompanied by pleasant feeling are also accompanied by piti and these are stronger or more intense than other kinds of attachment. This piti with attachment is also delighted or blissed by the object, such as music or nature or a special experience. So,to get to the point, I don’t think you differentiate in your various definitions between wholesome bliss - sukha and piti and the unwholesome kinds. How do you know that the bliss you are describing is wholesome? Similarly with absorption, trance and so on? At this moment is there any knowledge or awareness of whether the pleasant feeling or joy is wholesome or unwholesome? I’ll appreciate any further clarifications. With metta, Sarah. ====== 27881 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:40am Subject: Re: characteristics Hi Robert K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc. > this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an > independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in > complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so > fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the > change of dhammas. > RobertK Hi Robert K, I agree with Michael on this point (I'm sure that's a shocker! ;-)) It is not possible to say that a dhamma is impermanent and non-self and then to say that it has its own characteristics. These are completely contradictory concepts. This is complicated to explain with dhammas like hardness, softness, color, etc, allow me to use a metaphor: when four lines come together at perpendicular angles they form a square. This square appears to have its own characteristics which others can agree on. In essence, this is a `Rupa Square'. However, the square is really nothing but the coming together of the lines in a certain way. It doesn't have its own essence or characteristics because its appearance is dependant on the lines that form it. In summary, it isn't an ultimate reality. The lines are also not an ultimate reality either because they are dependant on other factors to exist (what space on the paper, a straight edge, etc.). Therefore, characteristics of dhammas are only provisional, not ultimate. In order for those characteristics to be ultimate, they cannot be impermanent and non-self. Metta, James 27882 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:20pm Subject: Not shared Knowledge ... Friends: The Buddhas have 6 kinds of knowledge not shared by Disciples: 1: Direct knowledge of penetration of other being's Abilities. 2: Direct knowledge of other being's latent Tendencies & biases. 3: Direct knowledge of how to perform the Twin Miracle. 4: Direct knowledge of how to achieve Great Compassion. 5: Direct knowledge of Omniscient Knowledge. 6: Direct knowledge of Unobstructed Knowledge. Source: The Path of Discrimination by Sariputta. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 All yours in the Dhamma. In Equanimity & even Ease. Friendship is truly Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ To join: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 27883 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:33pm Subject: The 4 Confidences Friends: The 4 Confidences of a Buddha: The confidence inherent in complete & perfect self-enlightenment, is the 1st certainty, assurance, safety & fearlessness a Buddha enjoy. The confidence inherent in total elimination of all mental fermentation, is the 2nd certainty, assurance, safety & fearlessness a Buddha enjoy. The confidence inherent in knowing & seeing all obstructions as obstruction, is the 3rd certainty, assurance, safety & fearlessness a Buddha enjoy. The confidence inherent in teaching a Dhamma which unambiguously always lead to the complete & irreversible destruction & ceasing of all suffering, is the 4th certainty, assurance, safety & fearlessness a Buddha enjoy. --oo0oo-- Source: The great presentation of the Lions Roar. The middle length sayings of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya: Maha-sihanada Sutta MN 12 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X All yours in the Dhamma. In Equanimity & even Ease. Friendship is truly Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ To join: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 27884 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Doomed March Fly - Thomas Hi Thomas, As I wrote another post I remembered your comments on this popular thread and I don't think anyone replied. --- nordwest wrote: > Maybe the fly will reach a higher realm, because now so many buddhists > reflect upon her... .... It's nice to think our reflections might help, but it may be wishful thinking;-) .... >or maybe she had reached perfect enlightenment when > been eaten alive by the ants, like the monk who was eaten by the tiger > in the jungle.... .... Yes, but I think there are a few differences;-) I don't believe it's possible for an ant or animal to become enlightened. The monk developed the necessary wisdom which it's not possible for an animal to do. .... >the ways of karma are unconceiveable. I would rather > hope, she profited from it. ..... I think she'd have to profit from her own good kamma, but as you imply, the killing may have been a helpful decisive factor in this regard. Who knows? Metta, Sarah ====== 27885 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Michael, Ken H, Howard & All, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Sarah: <...> > As Rob M listed in another post,in order for it to be an act of killing > there have to be five factors including ‘consquential death’. > > Michael: > OK, I missed that. So, the 'consequential death' is important, then > maybe > one could infere that the consequential death of many would produce a > more > potent kamma that only one death. Would this interpretation be > acceptable? ..... Yes,as I understand the teachings,but only if intended. Ken H and Howard were also discussing the timing of death responsibility from the act of killing. I hope you all enjoy this quote from the Paramatthajotikaa (The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning),comy to the Khuddakapaa.tha),PTS,trans by ~Naanamoli. 11, the Training Precepts, 21 >” ’By means’: in the case of killing-breathing-things there are six kinds of means: with one’s own hand, by command, by missile, by fixed contrivance, by [magical] science, and by supernormal power. Herein,a blow given by the body or by what is connected to the body is ‘with one’s own hand’ as means. That is of two kinds as directed [to an individual] and not so directed. Herein, in the case directed [to an individual], one becomes responsible for the action of killing [kamma-bandha -responsibility for action] only through the death of the one to whom the blow was directed. In the case of that not so directed [and given] thus ‘Let anyone at all die’ [one becomes responsible] through anyone’s death that is conditioned by that blow. And in both cases, ***whether [the breathing thing] dies with the very blow or afterwards of a sickness due to it, one becomes responsible for the action as from the moment of the blow,*** and when after giving the blow with the intention to kill, the breathing thing is not killed and then again a blow accompanied by another congnizance is given by him to that breathing thing not yet dead, and later on if it dies of the first blow, it is from then that he becomes responsible for the action, in which case there is no killing-of-breathing-things by the second blow; but if it dies through both, then he is responsible for the action as from the first blow. ***If it does not die through either, then there is no killing-of-breathing-things***. This method applies also when a blow is given by many to one; for then the responsibility for the action lies with him by whose blow the breathing thing died. A command [given] after making a decision is a ‘command’ as means. Herein, too, responsibility for the action should be followed out by the same method as that stated under ‘with one’s own hand’ as means.”< ***** S: I think this is all quite clear. In the case of plane and the bomb mission, anyone who commanded or pressed any buttons with the intention that one or many should be killed would be ‘responsible’ for the deaths of the one or many from the action. If there was no intention to kill or those other than intended are killed, in terms of kamma-patha, there is no ‘responsibility’ for killing on the part of the commander or the one who pressed the buttons, just as when we step on insects and kill them accidentally (or the accidental death of a March fly;-)). It may be irresponsible behaviour etc etc, but that’s another issue. To quote a little more from the same section: ***** >”If the object is mistaken and someone is killed other than the one whom it was commanded to kill, ***then the giver of the command has no responsibility for the action.*** But if the object is not mistaken and death is caused,then responsibility for the action lies with both the one giving the command and the one commanded: with the former from the moment of his giving the command, and with the latter from the moment of the death. Likewise in the case of ‘time’,and the rest.”< ***** S: Michael, you may also be interested to read another paragraph on ‘blamability’in the same section from a letter I wrote some time ago: ***** S: >In the Khuddakapatha (The Minor Readings), under ‘The Ten Training Precepts’, a lot of detail is given about the various permutations and kinds of killing with regard to: >“The object, time, locality, The weapon, posture, and the kind Of act; these are the six that we Shall need to make ‘command’ defined.”< >“ ‘By blamability’: in the case of breathing things beginning with animals that are devoid of special qualities, killing of breathing things is (relatively) less blamable in the case of a small one and more blamable in the case of one with a large phsyical frame. Why? Because of the greater magnitude of the means (needed); and when the means are equal, (it depends) on the greater magnitude of the object, (namely, the breathing thing.) But in the case of human beings etc, endowed with special qualities, killing-breathing-things is (relatively) less blamable in the case of one with small special qualities; and when there is equality of special qualities and of the physical frame, then the lesser blamableness should be understood to reside in the (relative) mildness of the defilements and of the active process adopted, and the greater blamableness in their greater violence. .....”< ***** We had a long discussion about the murder of Maha-Mogallana and I think the obvious horrors of this particular murder (and the consequences) were very apparent. Obviously,from these quotes, it is obvious that the intended and consequential death of many is far more blamable than of one. I hope these quotes answer the lingering questions. I always appreciate all RobM’s examples and confidence in wholesome deeds and reflection. As he reminded us (post 27668), we should look for opportunities for wholesome deeds which will be a condition for more of the same in future. Metta, Sarah ===== 27886 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Ken/H, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > There's not much of my theorising you haven't thoroughly > squashed. .... Squashed fly sympathies? And the parts I agreed with, Michael squashed. This is life on DSG;-) ... >I feared as much. But thank you, it had to be > done. > > It's time for my fortnightly trip to Brisbane. I will > reply properly in a day or two. .... I hope you had a good trip into the big city. (Did you buy a hat??). Btw, pls don't assume that all or any of my guesses outside the commentary notes are necessarily any righter. I'm sure you're not serious, but in any case, I certainly had no intention to do any squashing and hope my 'no' did not sound impolite;-( Metta, Sarah ======= 27887 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:37am Subject: Re: characteristics Dear James, Thanks for joining the discussion. I'll wait for Michael's reply so I can consider your points at the sme time and then write back. robk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert K, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence > etc. > > this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an > > independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in > > complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so > > fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the > > change of dhammas. > > RobertK > > Hi Robert K, > > I agree with Michael on this point (I'm sure that's a shocker! ;- )) > It is not possible to say that a dhamma is impermanent and non- self > and then to say that it has its own characteristics. These are > completely contradictory concepts. This is complicated to explain > with dhammas like hardness, softness, color, etc, allow me to use a 27888 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Ken (and Michael) - In a message dated 12/11/03 3:07:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Michael, > > You wrote to Nina: > --------------- > >(if an essence comes from causes and conditions then it > is fabricated, and it cannot be since essence does not > depend on another). > ---------------- > > Your whole argument seems to have come down to 'essence > does not depend on another.' It certainly doesn't, I > agree with you there. Dosa, for example is inherently > akusala; that characteristic does not depend on someone's > point of view. I can claim all the self-righteousness in > the world but it won't make dosa kusala. > > This is why the teaching of absolute reality is > irresistible; it takes out all the ambiguity. In > conventional reality, everything is ambiguous; nothing > can be known unequivocally; there is always a rational > argument for and against. Only in absolute reality is > there absoluteness. > > So, in that sense, essence does mean 'not dependent.' > > HOWEVER, that's as far as it goes. Essence does not mean > 'not dependent' in the sense of 'not a part of dependent > origination.' Paramattha dhammas do arise and cease in > dependence on conditions; there is no doubt about that. > > It seems that all this fuss has been over two meanings of > the word 'dependent.' I am glad to have cleared it up. > :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================ There is the following dictionary entry: __________________________________ Main Entry: es·sence Pronunciation: 'e-s&n(t)s Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin essentia, from esse to be —more at IS Date: 14th century 1 a : the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being b : the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence c : the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is 2 : something that exists : ENTITY -------------------------------------------------- Permit me to do a brief analysis: Meaning 1 a): Atta or self //In this sense, Buddhism accepts no essence// Meaning 1 b): Defining or distinguishing characteristic // (i) For paramattha dhammas, the dhamma and its distinguishing characteristic or condition are one and the same, making this notion rather empty. Hardness isn't warmth - they don't get confused. So what? That needn't be raised to the level of a grand metaphysical principle. (ii) For conventional objects, this is a perfectly reasonable though often vague and unidentifiable notion (What is the defining characteristic of a tree?), and is not particularly important for the Dhamma.// Meaning 2: Something having atta or self (Buddhist perspective on this: No selves, no entities.) Now, getting to what you said, Ken, about dosa being inherently akusala: I don't know what you mean by "inherently" here. Anger always produces kammic traces that are harmful by standard evaluation. That is a relational fact. What does this have to do with essence? The distinguishing characteristic of anger is anger. That's the whole story. Lots of states have only harmful consequences, and that does not help to distinguish them. (Paramattha dhammas are experiential actualities that are directly distinguishable anyway.) Anger is not an entity - it has no essence other than being anger. Anger always arises from causes and conditions, in complete dependence on them, and these causes and conditions are equally empty of own-being. The very existence of anger is "borrowed". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27889 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Sarah, > > I hope you had a good trip into the big city. (Did you buy a hat??). > ---------- Thanks; lunch by the river at Sandgate with Mum and Dad. All the hats were sold out -- March fly season. ----------- Btw, pls don't assume that all or any of my guesses outside the commentary > notes are necessarily any righter. ---------- I've been working on my "proper reply;" it's not ready yet and my eyes have packed it in (too much computer screen). I have been trying to resurect the 4NT theory. The rest you can have. No, come to think of it, I'm not quite beaten on the 'jhana object' either. ----------- > I'm sure you're not serious, but in any > case, I certainly had no intention to do any squashing and hope my 'no' > did not sound impolite;-( ---------- Certainly not. Sorry to have left you in suspense. More tomorrow -- eyes permitting ;-) Kind regards, Ken H 27890 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Livelihood Hi Nina, Howard & All, --- nina van gorkom wrote: <...> > Volition certainly is an important factor, but there are also other > cetasikas performing their functions at the moment of abstaining. As you > know, there are three cetasikas performing the functions of abstention, > virati cetasikas: abstention from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong > livelihood. It is good to know different degrees of them. There are not > only > coarse defilements, also medium defilements (pariyutthana kilesa) and > the > latent tendencies. .... Yes, there are bound to be many moments of wrong speech, action and livelihood in a day for all of us. I find it helpful to reflect that the virati (abstaining) cetasikas of right speech and so on only arise at times when we deliberately refrain from wrong speech and so on. So right speech, action and livelihood can never arise with jhana cittas nor in the kiriya cittas of an arahant, an arahant having no inclination remaining towards wrong speech and so on. Likewise, as I understand, a sotapanna would have no virati with regard to stealing, telling lies, sexual misconduct or stealing, because there is no inclination remaining towrds these in the first place. (Of course all virati present in lokuttara magga cittas helping to perform the function of eradication of the kilesa). B.Bodhi gives more detail on this under ‘the three abstinences’ in CMA,11,Guide to 15. He adds: “Moreover, any abstinence that arises can arise only in part, as determined by the type of transgression one refrains from: if one meets the opportunity to take life, then right action arises as abstinence only from taking life; if one meets the opportunity to steal, then it arises as abstinence only from stealing. However, when the abstinences arise in the supramundance cittas they always occur together (ekato), all three being present simultaneously.” <..> > Also the monks can engage in wrong livelihood, trying to become popular, > meditating in public, hinting when they like to obtain requisites. .... This is always a good reminder for all of us. We should recognize all kinds of wrong action and livelihood, no matter what our lifestyle. <..> > They are the defilements that can only be eradicated at the stages of > enlightenment. They are subtle defilements, but strong. It needs a > refined > understanding to go to the root of defilements. As to the first: sense > desire-clinging, all kinds of objects in this world are included, > praise, > blame, etc. .... I meant to add a note to Victor to effect that sense desire refers to sense sphere clinging, not just objects experienced through the 5 sense doors. .... > But, there is a remedy. The development of > understanding of the presently arisen reality. The only remedy really. > By the study of latent tendencies we learn more about the conditions for > akusala that arises. Then we find "our akusala" less important. This > helps > us also not to dwell so long on it, to be oppressed by it. ..... I look forward to your series on latent tendencies. I agree about the remedy. The more understanding develops,the less idea there will be of ‘my akusala’ and thereby the less dwelling and oppression as you say. In appreciation of all these helpful reminders and also to Howard for your helpful reflections on the momentary aspects and sharing of concerns. Metta, Sarah p.s If anyone would like to read more details and quotes from CMA and other sources on the 3 virati cetasikas of right speech,right action and right livelihood, this earlier post of mind might be helpful: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m14061.html =============================================================== 27891 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi Christine Relax go for a yoga course :) or go sea surfing with Ken H Patience is the name of the game bc understanding depends on right conditions maturing and cannot be hurried or forced. Perplex is also there so dont worry too much, bc hanging on doubt only condition more doubt and mental restlessness. Mindful and discern - Understanding will come - is a matter of time thats all, maybe not this life but at least we don't live our lives in vain. Akusala may accumulate so does kusala :). It is not easy to know there is no doer in the doing, its not easy to realise practise is right here and right now, no need to seek, no need to find or do something. Its right here and right now, every moment. It is just a matter of time this mystery will unravel in ourselves. Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a source of unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable support :). Cheers Kind regards Ken O --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > Just a thought - what should a *person* do if others indicate they > believe them to have the two worst Defilements, i.e. ditthi (wrong > view) and vicikiccha(sceptical doubt) and not only that, it is > considered they also have the three basic Fetters - sakkaya-ditthi > (personality belief), vicikiccha (sceptical doubt) and > silabbataparamasa (attachment to rules and rituals). Laugh or cry? > > According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be > done - > no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? > How,then, > can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27892 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Ken, I am Captain Akusala from a former existence. How did you come to the conclusion that the concepts kusala/akusala are not dependent on a point of view? What allows you to know the results of intention, and how to classify those results, without recourse to a conceptual superstructure that is noone's point of view? Peace Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Your whole argument seems to have come down to 'essence > does not depend on another.' It certainly doesn't, I > agree with you there. Dosa, for example is inherently > akusala; that characteristic does not depend on someone's > point of view. I can claim all the self-righteousness in > the world but it won't make dosa kusala. 27893 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello RobertK, RobertK: I might have misunderstood but are you suggesting that the commentaries thought earth element was diferent from hardness. Like it was some THING separate from the characteristic? That would be a real misinterpretation. You see the hardness is the earth element. Michael: Yes, it is a misinterpretation of what the commentaries say, but you see my point is that the commentaries in some aspects got it wrong. If you say ‘hardness is the earth element’ you are clearly stating that hardness belongs to earth element, is an intrinsic part of earth element. What I am saying is that if earth element is conditioned then it is impossible for earth element to have any kind of intrinsic part in it. Earth element as well as hardness are both conditioned. I will repeat what I wrote before: An essence (sabhava), or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing an essence (like when you say ‘hardness is the earth element’), is uncaused, independent of other phenomena, and not fabricated from other things. If an essence, or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing an essence, would come from causes and conditions, then it would be fabricated. How could it be fabricated since essence does not depend on another. If existence is through essence then there cannot be nonexistence. A change in essence is not tenable. An essential property is a necessary property, and it is incoherent to say that a thing loses a necessary property. Therefore there change is not possible and this is eternalism. RobertK: All dhammas are conditioned in complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening Michael: Fully agree. But not only dhammas, their characteristics as well. And if dhammas are conditioned, as you say, they cannot be paramatha nor have any kind of sabhava. (See explanation above). Metta Michael 27894 From: robmoult Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:00am Subject: Dilbert + Colombo Shopping Hi All, I like Dilbert and subscribe to its newsletter. The recent newsletter had a bit that I don't understand: "Imagine, if you will, that all DNRC members moved their holiday gift-buying from December to January to take advantage of the sales. Then imagine that the money saved on gifts is invested at 5% compounded interest for 80 years. You'll be dead by then, but your estates would be worth literally hundreds of dollars, maybe more. Anyway, the point is that it's easier to park at the mall in January, and that's something that Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha would all agree is a good thing. Especially Buddha, if you know what I mean." Any ideas of what Scott Adams is trying to say? On an unrelated topic, I have bought a travel-bag full of Dhamma books in Colombo at ridiculously low prices. I picked up the two- volume "Buddhist Logic" by Stcherbatsky for less than US$15 (for both volumes). I also got "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa" and "Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma" by Fumimaro Watanabe for less than US$4 (hard cover, cloth bound). Other finds that should be interesting reading are "Origin of Species According to the Buddha" and "Theory of Relations in Buddhist Philosophy". I will start chatting again in January, when I get back from Canada. Metta, Rob M :-) 27895 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hello Sarah: Sarah: I understand wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) to arise in the javana process WITH panna and sati. As you know, manasikaara is a universal cetasika with its own characteristic, so when it arises with wholesome cittas, it’s yoniso and vice versa with ayoniso (unwise). Usually when we read about it in the texts, it’s referring to wise attention arising with satipatthana. Michael: I understand it differently. I think in the stage of javana it is too late. Kamma is taking place in javana and my impression is that manasikara at this stage is probably not so relevant. I thought manasikara can become yoniso or ayoniso at an earlier stage, either receiving, or investigating, or determining cittas. I have in my mind that there is a sutta (sorry don’t know the reference) which says that there are only two requisites for enlightenment: hearing the true dhamma and wise attention, which ties with what has been said in many messages in the list about attention to the present moment. I also heard once from Bhante G that satipatthana is the training to develop yoniso manasikara. Metta Michael 27896 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:10am Subject: Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death Dear Dhamma friends How are you? I did not have a chance to take part in the thread regarding recent death of Howard's mother-in-law, and now another thread regarding the death of Jack's father a week or so ago. The following is my response to Stephen's post regarding the death of Jack's father on another list. Hope my post contributes something in the way of coping with death- related grief. Suan -------------------------- Dear Jack, Howard, Stephen, Joyce, Christine and all How are you? Stephen wrote: "It ends with the Uraga Jataka, which I hadn't heard before. An entire family practices meditation of death. The son dies of a snake bite. The father is not perturbed and just goes on about his work; no one grieves or laments. ... I find something wrong in this ideal. Yet..." There are many teachings in Buddhism that are counter-intuitive for those on the beginning stages of learning and training. I regard my bedroom as my death room because I sleep deep sleep every night. Deep sleep (bhavangam), linking consciounsess (pa.tisandhi cittam) and death consciousness (cuti cittam, transiting consciousness) are the same type of consciousness according to the Abhidhamma teaching. When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. And, death is never my worry, but the possibility of being reborn is my profound concern, due to its conditions being unwiseness (avijjaa) and attachment still under the process of eradication. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 27897 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hello Sarah: Sarah: You mention that ecstasy is used to describe the experience of enlightenment, but of course as you know, jhana is not any enlightenment. You refer in your quotes to ‘pleasure (bliss)’. This would refer to sukha and piti, I believe, sometimes translated as bliss or pleasant feeling (sukha) and joy or rapture (piti). The difficulty is, I think, that we assume these states are wholesome when they arise, but usually they’re unwholesome sukha and piti accompanying attachment. Indeed all kinds of attachment, accompanied by pleasant feeling are also accompanied by piti and these are stronger or more intense than other kinds of attachment. This piti with attachment is also delighted or blissed by the object, such as music or nature or a special experience.. Michael: Sarah, I have a question, I always thought that piti, which is a physical sensation, is a jhana factor, it only arises with jhana. But as I read what you say, piti can also arise in mundane activities? Can you please explain? Tks Metta Michael 27898 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:14am Subject: Re: Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death Dear Suan, This is great. I will try to recloolect this tonight when I get into bed. robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > There are many teachings in Buddhism that are counter-intuitive for > those on the beginning stages of learning and training. > > I regard my bedroom as my death room because I sleep deep sleep every > night. Deep sleep (bhavangam), linking consciounsess (pa.tisandhi > cittam) and death consciousness (cuti cittam, transiting > consciousness) are the same type of consciousness according to the > Abhidhamma teaching. > > When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe > that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and > linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go > to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same > type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take > the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. > > 27899 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > > RobertK: > All dhammas are conditioned in > complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening > > Michael: > Fully agree. But not only dhammas, their characteristics as well. And if > dhammas are conditioned, as you say, they cannot be paramatha nor have any > kind of sabhava. (See explanation above). > >_________________ Dear Michael and James, Did you read the commentary I posted. To repeat:The majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) ""there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their characteristics"" I think if we imagine that dhammas are different from their characteristics then we go away from what the Abhidhamma and commentaries teach. If we see that the commentaries are not for philosphical discussion but to point directly to what appears at the 6 doors then we can come to see how profound and helpful they are. Robert 27900 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, eyefaculty. Hi Larry, op 11-12-2003 05:03 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The ear [sensitivity] is to be found inside the [feature of the] > ear-hole with its accessories in the place that is shaped like a > finger-stall and surrounded by fine brown hairs." > > In case you were wondering, a finger stall is a sheath for the finger, > like a thimble: N: Pali has a'ngulivedhaka.m, and Co explains: a"nguliiyaka.m which is a finger-ring. There is a Co to 53, and more to say. also to 54. I have a lot to tell about the anthill, the croc, etc. The co. to 58: very long, more than the footnote, and I am not yet through. The eye is a faculty, indriya: it controls seeing which is dependent on it. U Narada (Guide to Conditional Relations) explains the difference in eye sensitivity: condiitoned by age. He explains that even a young man, when he reads too much has his eyesense affected. I have to look after this lousehead, as Herman says. I feel my eyes when I have stared too much on texts, also the Thai letters are a strain. I like to do it so much, but I may have to shorten my translations. I do them late (at least late for me) at night. Nina. 27901 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clung to (NUM;-)) Dear Sarah, op 10-12-2003 09:51 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: I can’t find Wheel 101. If the note isn’t too long, I’d be interested in > it, otherwise never mind. Also do you have a Dhammasangani ref, otherwise > I’ll look when I have time. N: See what Larry prepared for us on upadi.n.na. This is longer than the note in Wheel most of which I rendered. Now Dhsg: p. 185, § 653: Thus, we have this Pali term in this context, used in this way, that is all. Upaadaanakkhandha is another context, and here upaadaana is used with a wider meaning: all that is clung to and favorable to clinging. On p. 299: The Group on Grasping (upaadaana-gocchaka.m) with foonotes and references to Expositor. I found in Dispeller I, p. 14, that the five khandhas and the five khandhas of grasping amount to the same. I appreciate the reminder that it all relates to this moment. S:> However, K.Sujin stopped me and stressed that upadana khandha applies just > to what is experienced and therefore likely to be clung to at this moment. ..... If eye-sense is not > experienced and not clung to, it is not upadana khandha.< N: It is khandha, thus also upadaanakkhandha. S: the Mahapunnama > Sutta, MN109, > > In this sutta we read about the upadana khandhas rooted in desire. We read > that ‘the clinging is neither the same as these five aggregates affected > by clinging, nor is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates > affected by clinging.It is the desire and lust in regard to the five > aggregates affected by clinging that is the clinging there.’ The Buddha is > then asked about the diversity in the desire regarding the upadana khandha > and explains the various wishes or desires that may arise. N: Exactly. Nina. 27902 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Michael, Howard answered your question on sabhava very clearly. I can add something later on. When you have misgivings, do speak out, useful for all of us. You may give some examples of sayings on this list which you find controversial. I bet, when the word realities is used. Howard formerly suggested actualities, which is fine too. It does not matter to me, so long as we know what the expression means. Or can you give examples from the Abhidhamma, points you consider as different from Suttanta. Helpful, then we can look into it. Let us keep this dialogue going, Nina. 27903 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) CORRECTION --- Sarah wrote: > Sometimes, it’s just used for any wise reflection. E.g, Vism 1, 85: > > “’Reflecting wisely,he uses the robe pnly for protection from the > cold....”- .... Besides the typo in 'only', reflecting a little more wisely I think this was an example of unwise reflection on my part;-( Yoniso for wisely, but not not manasikaara.I think reflection here is pa.tisankhaa, looking at the back of Vism. I don't think yoniso manasikaara is ever used in this kind of context. it didn't sound write when I wrote it. Apologies, Sarah ====== 27904 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:50am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello KenH, KenH: Your whole argument seems to have come down to 'essence does not depend on another.' It certainly doesn't, I agree with you there. KenH: Essence does not mean 'not dependent' in the sense of 'not a part of dependent origination.' Paramattha dhammas do arise and cease in dependence on conditions; there is no doubt about that. Michael: Can you see the contradiction in your argument? Or is it just me? KenH: This is why the teaching of absolute reality is irresistible; it takes out all the ambiguity. Michael: Yes, and this is why there is so much attachment to some form of reification, which is the same as going with the flow. And that is why it is said that Buddhist teachings go against the stream. Metta Michael 27905 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:23am Subject: Re: characteristics Hi Robert, > Dear Michael and James, > Did you read the commentary I posted. To repeat:The majjhimanikaya > tika (mulapariyaya sutta) ""there > IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their > characteristics"" James: This is entirely beside the point I was making. It doesn't matter if the dhammas and their characteristics are the same thing, what matters is when it is said that they have their `own' characteristics, that they are an ultimate reality, that no matter what they will continue to be as they are now. This is eternalism and contradictory to impermanence and non self. (I have always argued this in this group but more from a scientific perspective. I know that matter doesn't have its own characteristics. Even the elements of the Periodic Table, which are categorized according to increasing atomic number and characteristics, are not ultimate realities. They change, transmute, and are continually unstable. Quantum Physics demonstrates that this impermanence is even more basic than the atom.) > I think if we imagine that dhammas are different from their > characteristics then we go away from what the Abhidhamma and > commentaries teach. If we see that the commentaries are not for > philosphical discussion but to point directly to what appears at the > 6 doors then we can come to see how profound and helpful they are. James: What exactly is helpful about filling your mind with useless and incorrect data about the world? Isn't it better to accept that nothing is stable and that nothing is what it appears to be? > Robert Metta, James 27906 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:23am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello RobertK, RobertK; If we see that the commentaries are not for philosphical discussion but to point directly to what appears at the 6 doors then we can come to see how profound and helpful they are. Michael: Agree. But if one still regards the dhammas as paramatha with sabhava that is miccha ditti which will be an obstacle for emancipation. And whenever someone thinks of the dhammas as paramatha and with sabhava, whether wanting or not, a philosophical stand is being taken. Metta Michael 27907 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Nina, Thanks for your encouragement. I may sometimes sound negative in relation to the Abhidhamma but I want to stress that I really admire it and consider to be extremely useful for a better understanding. Nina: Or can you give examples from the Abhidhamma, points you consider as different from Suttanta Michael: I am far from reading all the suttas but I have yet to find a reference to the five aggregates as paramatha/sabhava. And this is how they are regarded in the commentaries of the Abhidhamma. It may seem a trivial point but in fact if someone really believes that there is something that trully exists, his/her thinking process will be shaped by that understanding. And if that key assumption turns out to be wrong, his/her understanding will also be wrong. And as we all know Samma dithi is the forerunner of the whole path. Metta Michael 27908 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:05am Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: MN62 anapanasati Dear Sarah and all, I thought this suitable, since we are still on anapanasati. The same on Pali list. op 10-12-2003 15:51 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@y...: > > thanks again, Nina. It is amazing how the Buddha understand things. > Does "body in the body" only applies to breath in the physical body, > ruupakaaya? Thanks. N: Rahula developed with this subject samatha to the degree of jhana as well as insight. He was highly gifted and could attain jhana, by developing calm. He was mindful of breath, a rupa, material phenomenon, as it touched the upperlip or nose. But he also developed insight. This means, after emerging from jhana, absorption, he was mindful of all dhammas that appeared, jhanacitta that had just fallen away, the accompanying jhanafactors, or rupas. Breath is actually tangible object, appearing as hardness, softness, heat, cold, oscillation or pressure. As we read: > > We say that breath is a body. Further, the twentyfive classes of > rupa, namely, the sense-base of visible object (ruupaayatana).... > nutriment, are called the physical body, ruupakaaya (N:different from > the mental body). Of these, breathing is ³a certain body² because it > is included in tangible object base (pho.t.tabbaayatana). ³That is > why²: because he contemplates the body of wind (vaayokaaya, motion or > pressure) among the four bodies (N: the four Great Elements) N: But he had to be aware of all kinds of rupas that the Buddha had explained to him before and also of mental phenomena. Not only tangible object, but all kinds: thus all kinds. This is a whole list, including sound, odour, flavour, etc. He had to see the body in the body, we read:< a mere body only, by not contemplating it as containing anything that can be apprehended as "I" or "mine" or "woman" or "man" all this is contemplation of the body. > As we read in the Sutta, Rahula had to realize: < Thus, "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be seen with right wisdom just as it is.> Nina. 27909 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness op 11-12-2003 04:37 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > There wasn't much conversation immediately afterwards > because Brian was late for a social appointment. But, > even as he walked to his car, he kept repeating, "That's > bloody marvellous! I really like that -- just phenomena, > no stories -- thanks for explaining it that way." N: A priceless story. So spontaneous. I love people who find the Dhamma bloody marvellous. Can you not invite him to dsg, then we can continue the dialogue. K: > N: > Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: > Fixedness of Law regarding all things. > There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: > 1. temperature, season. > 2. plant life. > 3. kamma. > 4. functions of citta in the processes. > 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. > > Meanwhile, thank you for explaining it to me. I have > read it before but without it's having much impact. Now, > to use your words, it is really striking. It gives me > added appreciation of what you remind of us here: "The > Buddha himself could not stop kamma from producing > vipaka. It is the natural law of kamma, kamma nyaama. > After he attained enlightenment he said, to whom as a > teacher he could pay respect? To the Dhamma. N: This last point is in another sutta, I cannot find now. I have the same all the time: so many points I overlooked but which get more meaning afterwards. Like now the latent tendencies. See also the processes of citta: it helps us to see anatta. The lobha and dosa come in so fast. Nina. 27910 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death Dear Dhamma Friends, Death is arising all the time. But what is death becomes an issue. There are different definitions on death. There will be difference in all of these definition. One gone. Soon after, another gone. Even though there is no waiting list, there is at least a person die at every second. If unrelated and remote, there is little or no feeling. But if related and very close, there arise grief. This grief arises from alternative viewing of Dhamma. The grief will be released at the same place where it was picked up. Dear Jack and Howard things are going on their own. But as we are assuming us as us, we have to do our functions. There are many functions in conventional terms. There are many duties like duties of children, duties of parents, duties of teachers, duties of pupils, duties of husbands, duties of wives, duties of employers, duties of employee, duties of friends, duties of leaders and endless duties. But these duties can be performed sensibly under practice I think. May all beings satisfy their existence and find Dhamma Htoo Naing -------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Suan, This is great. I will try to recloolect this tonight when I get into bed. robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" suanluzaw@b...> wrote: There are many teachings in Buddhism that are counter-intuitive for those on the beginning stages of learning and training. I regard my bedroom as my death room because I sleep deep sleep every night. Deep sleep (bhavangam), linking consciounsess (pa.tisandhi cittam) and death consciousness (cuti cittam, transiting consciousness) are the same type of consciousness according to the Abhidhamma teaching. When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. 27911 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi Ken O and Christine, I wanted to write a response to this thread, but am glad that I didn't until now. Because reading your response Ken, mine would have seemed like a lot of words with very little said. I liked this post Ken, and Anumodana on your great understanding of the Dhamma. I especially liked this reminder: >>Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a source of unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable support :).<< :-) Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Relax go for a yoga course :) or go sea surfing with Ken H > > Patience is the name of the game bc understanding depends on right > conditions maturing and cannot be hurried or forced. > > Perplex is also there so dont worry too much, bc hanging on doubt > only condition more doubt and mental restlessness. > > Mindful and discern - Understanding will come - is a matter of time > thats all, maybe not this life but at least we don't live our lives > in vain. Akusala may accumulate so does kusala :). > > It is not easy to know there is no doer in the doing, its not easy to > realise practise is right here and right now, no need to seek, no > need to find or do something. Its right here and right now, every > moment. It is just a matter of time this mystery will unravel in > ourselves. Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a > source of unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable support :). > Cheers > > > > Kind regards > Ken O 27912 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: characteristics Hi James, I'm never averse to contributions from a scientific perspective. I just wanted to agree with you about the Periodic Table of The Elements as a whole, or it's constituent parts not having any ultimate reality. Similarly the Periodic Table of Namas and Rupas is just a conceptual model that in some cases can help to understand that what is taken for real is not real, but in most cases serves to confuse one concept with another. Experience can be theorised about as the simultaneous arising of a number of independantly arising non-experienced "states" (it's just a word), the absence of any of which would result in the absence of the experience. It can also be theorised about in any number of other ways. There is no experience of namas and rupas. There is experience. Namas, rupas, and the doors they came through are the after-party dissections and ruminations about non-graspable and undifferentiated awareness. Nothing wrong with after-party ruminations. I quite enjoy them. But when after-party ruminations are mistakenly used as the source for after-party ruminations, then there is much talk about a party that never happened. Peace, love and joy Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > Dear Michael and James, > > Did you read the commentary I posted. To repeat:The majjhimanikaya > > tika (mulapariyaya sutta) ""there > > IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their > > characteristics"" > > James: This is entirely beside the point I was making. It doesn't > matter if the dhammas and their characteristics are the same thing, > what matters is when it is said that they have their `own' > characteristics, that they are an ultimate reality, that no matter > what they will continue to be as they are now. This is eternalism > and contradictory to impermanence and non self. (I have always > argued this in this group but more from a scientific perspective. I > know that matter doesn't have its own characteristics. Even the > elements of the Periodic Table, which are categorized according to > increasing atomic number and characteristics, are not ultimate > realities. They change, transmute, and are continually unstable. > Quantum Physics demonstrates that this impermanence is even more > basic than the atom.) > > > I think if we imagine that dhammas are different from their > > characteristics then we go away from what the Abhidhamma and > > commentaries teach. If we see that the commentaries are not for > > philosphical discussion but to point directly to what appears at > the > > 6 doors then we can come to see how profound and helpful they are. > > James: What exactly is helpful about filling your mind with useless > and incorrect data about the world? Isn't it better to accept that > nothing is stable and that nothing is what it appears to be? > > > Robert > > Metta, James 27913 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hello Nina, Nina: After he attained enlightenment he said, to whom as a teacher he could pay respect? To the Dhamma. N: This last point is in another sutta, I cannot find now. Michael: "I have heard that on one occasion, when the Blessed One was newly Self-awakened, he was staying at Uruvela on the bank of the Nerañjara River, at the foot of the Goatherd's Banyan Tree. Then, while he was alone and in seclusion, this line of thinking arose in his awareness: "One suffers if dwelling without reverence or deference. Now on what priest or contemplative can I dwell in dependence, honoring and respecting him?" ..... "What if I were to dwell in dependence on this very Dhamma to which I have fully awakened, honoring and respecting it?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn06-002.html Metta Michael 27914 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:13pm Subject: Re: Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death Hi Suan, I was interested in the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe > that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and > linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go > to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same > type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take > the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. > If deep sleep had changed to either transiting or linking consciousness , would you be able to observe that? Peace, love and joy Herman 27915 From: jangchup777 Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:58am Subject: Hello from new member To Everyone in Group, Hi. I'm happy to join the Dhamma study group. I'm a 22 year old guy living in Schenectady NY. I began meditation about 2 years ago. My interest in Buddhism really began several months after I began meditating when I found a copy of the Dhammapada in the basement of a used bookstore. Last summer I lived as a resident at the Bhavana Society in West Virginia. Maybe some of you have visited there. It was a good experience over all. I often read suttas from the Sutta Pitaka. I would like to understand the Dhamma and know the end of suffering. I think I found the way to this group just by surfing the internet. From, Ben 27916 From: Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Group The Buddha said... "In whatsoever way we conceive, the truth is ever other than that." It seems to me that in order to communicate we need to use terms, but whenever we use terms, we miss the "mark of actuality" to some degree. I think its more of a matter of getting away from bad terms than actually finding one that's accurate. The term "characteristic" seems to me much better than say "own characteristic" or the even worse "intrinsic characteristic." (The latter two way too strongly ignoring the principle of Dependent Origination.) No matter how good the term is, its still fraught with notions of essence, entity, etc. Even when a "bare ingredient" such as "firmness" is conceptualized, I think we cannot help but impart a sense of "entity" to it. So what can be done is to use the best term possible and be mindful that even its conceptualization is delusive. (I suppose if one were enlightened, that mindfulness would have been cultivated to the point that no delusive attribute would accompany the use of terminology.) TG 27917 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:20pm Subject: Yahoo mixed up Hi All, I notice the messages I sent yesterday all got a bit jumbled by yahoo, coming out in an entirely different order to that sent and some only after delays of several hours. Don't be alarmed if this happens from time to time. Just be patient;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27918 From: Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, eyefaculty. Hi Nina, If there are a lot of notes on this section let me know when to go ahead. No rush, and just translate what is interesting. Larry 27919 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:24pm Subject: The 3 non-Existents ! Friends: What is not ? The Greek king Milinda (1st century BC) once asked Bhikkhu Nagasena: "Please tell me Venerable Sir, what there is not in this world!" The cooled Monk answered: 'That which, whether conscious or unconscious, do not age, die & disappear, that exists not in this world... That construction, whether physical or mental, that do not change & decay, that exists not in this world... That becoming that leads to a stable & definable entity, person, identity or being, that exists not in this world... These three, Sir, are not found in the worlds...' --oo0oo-- Source: King Milinda's Questions. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132633 http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut045.htm All yours in the Dhamma. In Equanimity & even Ease. Friendship is truly Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. 27920 From: Andrew Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > I am far from reading all the suttas but I have yet to find a reference to > the five aggregates as paramatha/sabhava. And this is how they are regarded > in the commentaries of the Abhidhamma. It may seem a trivial point but in > fact if someone really believes that there is something that trully exists, > his/her thinking process will be shaped by that understanding. And if that > key assumption turns out to be wrong, his/her understanding will also be > wrong. And as we all know Samma dithi is the forerunner of the whole path. Hi Michael It takes all kinds to make a world and I must be one of the slower ones. I've read your concerns over paramattha/sabhava several times in a number of posts and I don't ask you to repeat them. What I would like to know is - when you talk about things existing or not existing, what time dimension (if any) are you referring to? Are you saying that change occurs within a point of time? That a point of time is just a "snapshot" used for intellectual discussion? Do you believe in "mind moments" (I forget the Pali term)? Metta Andrew PS there is a Professor at Princeton who now argues that our universe has 2 time dimensions. 27921 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:12pm Subject: Local is Global! Friends: World’s End ? The shining young god Rohitassa, who usually travelled with the speed of imagination, once asked the Buddha: Venerable Sir, is it possible to reach the end of the world & the end of birth, ageing, death, passing & rebirth by travel ? The Knower of all worlds then responded: Friend, I do not say, that there is an end of the world, where one is neither born, nor ages, nor dies, nor passes on, nor reappears, which can be reached, known or seen by travel. Yet, neither do I say that there is an end to Misery without reaching the world’s end! Rather, it is right within this very same fathom long frame of body, endowed with conscious experience, that I make known the world, the appearance of the world, the disappearance of the world & the Way to end the World !!! One cannot reach the end of the World by travel. Yet there is no escape from pain without ending the world. Therefore, let the Wise One know how to end the world by fulfilling the Noble life. Such one knowing the World's End through silenced calming, longs neither for this nor for any other world... --oo0oo-- Source: The connected discourses of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya SN [I 62] Bhikkhu Samahita Sri Lanka Buddha-Direct. 27922 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] meditation for all occasions Dear Sarah, and this is one of the meditations for all occasions we spoke about: recollection of the Triple Gem. Nina. op 11-12-2003 07:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > When I hear or read helpful reminders about the truth and am able to > listen (which is not always by any means), it’s a condition to really pay > respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha for making these truths available > to me. 27923 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death Dear Suan, Thank you, maranasati: another meditation subject for every occasion. Or we can consider momentary death of each citta, but that is harder to do. We take it so much for granted that each citta that falls away is succeeded by a next one. Moreover, I only know this in theory. It must be different for those who can experience this by insight. Nina. op 11-12-2003 16:10 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe > that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and > linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go > to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same > type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take > the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. 27924 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hi Michael (& Jeff), You ask an important qu and I'd like to add more on this and your other one, but will have to wait til after the w'end now as I'm v.busy these couple of days. Meanwhile, pls take a look at a good chapter on piti cetasika in Nina's book 'Cetasikas' (a very useful purchase too): http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas13.html You might also look at the ch on manasikaara,ch 7 in the meantime too. Michael, as Nina says, pls continue with the other paramatha/sabhava threads. These discussions are very helpful for us all and I like the fact that you question and consider and don’t agree unless satisfied;-) Your contributions are very valuable. Metta, Sarah ======= 27925 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from new member Hi Ben, Thanks for joining us and for introducing yourself so well. --- jangchup777 wrote: > To Everyone in Group, > > Hi. I'm happy to join the Dhamma study group. I'm a 22 year old guy > living in Schenectady NY. ..... This is a great place to spend your time during those snow storms;-) There are a few other New Yorkers around - Howard is our most prolific NY poster. .... >I began meditation about 2 years ago. My > interest in Buddhism really began several months after I began > meditating when I found a copy of the Dhammapada in the basement of a > used bookstore. Last summer I lived as a resident at the Bhavana > Society in West Virginia. Maybe some of you have visited there. .... Again, Howard or others may have. I'm afraid I've never been to the East Coast or NY, but would love to one day. We're literally from all over the world here. Perhaps you can share some of your favourite Dhp verses or any other reflections anytime. .... It > was a good experience over all. I often read suttas from the Sutta > Pitaka. I would like to understand the Dhamma and know the end of > suffering. > > I think I found the way to this group just by surfing the internet. .... Excellent! Again, pls raise any suttas you'd like to discuss for any reason. If you find some posts here too technical, just skip them for now or ask any qus. You can also use the search option on the back-up for the list here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ or in the word documents for the archives kept in the file section by RobM: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Look forward to hearing plenty more from you, Ben. Metta, Sarah ======= 27926 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Ken O and Christine, > > I wanted to write a response to this thread, but am glad that I > didn't until now. Because reading your response Ken, mine would have > seemed like a lot of words with very little said. I liked this post > Ken, and Anumodana on your great understanding of the Dhamma. > I especially liked this reminder: > > >>Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a source of > unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable support :).<< > > :-) > Metta, > Sukin. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong > wrote: > > Hi Christine > > > > Relax go for a yoga course :) or go sea surfing with Ken H > > > > Patience is the name of the game bc understanding depends on right > > conditions maturing and cannot be hurried or forced. > > > > Perplex is also there so dont worry too much, bc hanging on doubt > > only condition more doubt and mental restlessness. > > > > Mindful and discern - Understanding will come - is a matter of time > > thats all, maybe not this life but at least we don't live our lives > > in vain. Akusala may accumulate so does kusala :). > > > > It is not easy to know there is no doer in the doing, its not easy > to > > realise practise is right here and right now, no need to seek, no > > need to find or do something. Its right here and right now, every > > moment. It is just a matter of time this mystery will unravel in > > ourselves. Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a > > source of unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable > support :). > > Cheers > > Kind regards > > Ken O Ken O, Sukin, I believe you misinterpret that post by Christine. When I read her post I didn't sense that she was writing from a feeling of personal angst about the Buddha-dharma, she was just asking a question. When a person is so far from the dhamma, and there is no self to do anything about it, how is that person supposed to get closer to the dhamma? It is a philosophical question and reflects absolutely nothing about Christine. I seriously doubt that she was looking for platitudes and advice to go surfing! ;-)) Metta, James 27927 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:40am Subject: Re: characteristics Hi Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi James, > > I'm never averse to contributions from a scientific perspective. > I just wanted to agree with you about the Periodic Table of The > Elements as a whole, or it's constituent parts not having any > ultimate reality. Similarly the Periodic Table of Namas and Rupas is > just a conceptual model that in some cases can help to understand > that what is taken for real is not real, but in most cases serves to > confuse one concept with another. > Well, I hear from all sides on this issue. Some say that misunderstanding arises in those who read the Abhidhamma incorrectly, some say that the Abhidhamma itself is incorrect, some say (which is a new one from Michael) that the commentaries have misinterpreted the Abhidhamma. There seems to be a lot of finger pointing and very few answers. Since I don't have any copies of the books of the Abhidhamma, I can only go on what I read written about it. It seems to me that there must be an intrinsic flaw to the Abhidhamma which is then exacerbated by the commentaries and those who read it. Something truly good could not be so misunderstood. Metta, James 27928 From: sukinder Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi James, Thanks for pointing this out. But it did cross my mind about the appropriateness of Ken's response, and I thought that maybe like me, he has Christine's other posts in mind at the same time. Anyway on the whole my responnse was to Ken's comment in terms of his own general understanding and I did not even consider so much what Chrisitine's response would be to them.:-) Besides the whole point about going surfing and all is perhaps related to silabbataparamasa, maybe?...;-) Have been enjoying reading your posts! Metta, Sukin. Ken O, Sukin, I believe you misinterpret that post by Christine. When I read her post I didn't sense that she was writing from a feeling of personal angst about the Buddha-dharma, she was just asking a question. When a person is so far from the dhamma, and there is no self to do anything about it, how is that person supposed to get closer to the dhamma? It is a philosophical question and reflects absolutely nothing about Christine. I seriously doubt that she was looking for platitudes and advice to go surfing! ;-)) Metta, James 27929 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: characteristics --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > Dear Michael and James, > > Did you read the commentary I posted. To repeat:The majjhimanikaya > > tika (mulapariyaya sutta) ""there > > IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their > > characteristics"" > > James: This is entirely beside the point I was making. It doesn't > matter if the dhammas and their characteristics are the same thing, > what matters is when it is said that they have their `own' > characteristics, that they are an ultimate reality, that no matter > what they will continue to be as they are now. This is eternalism > and contradictory to impermanence and non self. (I have always > argued this in this group but more from a scientific perspective. I _________ Dear James, Take the example of dosa - anger- it is an element with certain harsh characteristics. It is always of a certain nature but no dosa can be exactly the same as another. Even we are angry for a minute or an hour the dosa is never the same becuase there are different conditions conditioning the dosa to arise. And it is by investigating the nature of dosa - or any other element - that this can be understood. This is experiential and so it has to be known when it arises - in the present. If there is no dosa arising now it cannot be investigated directly , but there are other elements, such as hardness or pleasant feeling or seeing that may be arising and can be studied. Robk 27930 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: characteristics --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear James, > Take the example of dosa - anger- it is an element with certain > harsh characteristics. It is always of a certain nature but no dosa > can be exactly the same as another. Even we are angry for a minute > or an hour the dosa is never the same becuase there are different > conditions conditioning the dosa to arise. And it is by > investigating the nature of dosa - or any other element - that this > can be understood. This is experiential and so it has to be known > when it arises - in the present. If there is no dosa arising now it > cannot be investigated directly , but there are other elements, such > as hardness or pleasant feeling or seeing that may be arising and > can be studied. > Robk Hi Rob K, Again, I think we keep basically missing each other. I will address your example- dosa (anger). You write about dosa "It is always of a certain nature but no dosa can be exactly the same as another." To say that anger is "always" of a certain nature and yet no two instances can be exactly the same is somewhat contradictory and vague to me. How can this be considered an ultimate reality? To change the focus a bit, allow me to share a poem I recently taught to my English classes: A Poison Tree From Songs of Experience By William Blake I was angry with my friend: I told my wrath, my wrath did end. I was angry with my foe: I told it not, my wrath did grow. And I watered it in fears, Night and morning with my tears; And I sunned it with smiles, And with soft deceitful wiles. And it grew both day and night, Till it bore an apple bright; And my foe beheld it shine, And he knew that it was mine, And into my garden stole When the night had veiled the pole; In the morning glad I see My foe outstretched beneath the tree. When I taught this poem, I discussed with my classes the varying nature of anger. I explained that anger is never really one emotion but several. Anger at a friend, when told, will quickly go away because it is of a different nature than anger at a foe (enemy). That second type of anger grows with the emotions of fears and sadness until it grows into something poisonous. Usually this poison will `kill' the person that has the anger but for irony, Blake had the anger kill the foe. Is anger an ultimate reality? How could it be when it manifests in so many different ways? Our label of `anger' or `dosa' is just a convenient label, it doesn't really describe a `single' thing. As far as your first other examples (I don't have time to address them all), to me hardness isn't an ultimate reality either. What is `hard' and by whose standards? Is water hard? How about when it's frozen? Is air hard? What about when it's in a tornado or hurricane? These are all relative characteristics to me and don't point to an ultimate reality. Metta, James 27931 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:43am Subject: Re: Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death : To Herman Dear Herman, Robert K, Nina, Htoo Et Al Herman wrote: "I was interested in the following: If deep sleep had changed to either transiting or linking consciousness , would you be able to observe that?" The quick answer is No. The bhavanga cittam (life-component consciousness) is a kind of filling-in mental resting state between the active mental events processing stimuli of different types. Pali expression for these active processing of stimuli is "viithi", cognitive road. Cognitive roads never represents smooth long straight lines. Rather, they represent very complex appearing and disappearing networks of abrupt repetitive wave crests. Each cognitive road appears by breaking off many bhavanga states and disappears on the spot by being replaced with bhavanga states which are equally impermanent and selfless, of course. When we observe a phenomenon, we do so with cognitive roads, the mental consciousness road (manoviññaa.naviithi) in particular. The phenomenon of deep sleep changing to transiting consciousness involves no cognitive road because both are the bhavanga consciousness types. Similarly, the phenomenon of transiting consciousness changing (immediately) to linking consciousness does not involve any cognitive road for the same reason that both are the bhavanga consciousness types. Therefore, when deep sleep changes to transiting consciousness, no observation can occur because such a change does not involve cognitive roads. The same applies when transiting consciousness changes to linking consciosness. Please remember that Theravada as the Buddha's teachings does not allow any limbo state between transiting consciousness and linking consciousness. In plain English, the dying moment is immediately followed by the rebirth moment. Nothing or nobody hangs around its dead body. By the way, your if-clause : "If deep sleep had changed to either transiting or linking consciousness", is better restated as follows. "If deep sleep had changed to transiting consciousness or transiting consciusness to linking consciousness," Deep sleep cannot directly change to linking consciousness by skipping the stage of transiting consciousness. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: Hi Suan, I was interested in the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe > that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and > linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go > to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same > type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take > the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. > If deep sleep had changed to either transiting or linking consciousness , would you be able to observe that? Peace, love and joy Herman 27932 From: Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/11/03 10:18:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hello Group > > The Buddha said... "In whatsoever way we conceive, the truth is ever other > than that." > > It seems to me that in order to communicate we need to use terms, but > whenever we use terms, we miss the "mark of actuality" to some degree. I > think its > more of a matter of getting away from bad terms than actually finding one > that's accurate. > > The term "characteristic" seems to me much better than say "own > characteristic" or the even worse "intrinsic characteristic." (The latter > two way too > strongly ignoring the principle of Dependent Origination.) No matter how > good the > term is, its still fraught with notions of essence, entity, etc. > > Even when a "bare ingredient" such as "firmness" is conceptualized, I think > we cannot help but impart a sense of "entity" to it. > > So what can be done is to use the best term possible and be mindful that > even > its conceptualization is delusive. (I suppose if one were enlightened, that > > mindfulness would have been cultivated to the point that no delusive > attribute > would accompany the use of terminology.) > > TG > =========================== I think you're right on target! There is a Son (Korean Zen) master who says something along the lines of "Mouth open, already a mistake!" ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27933 From: Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:44am Subject: Misunderstood Teachings (Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics) Hi, James - In a message dated 12/12/03 7:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > It seems > to me that there must be an intrinsic flaw to the Abhidhamma which is > then exacerbated by the commentaries and those who read it. > Something truly good could not be so misunderstood. > ====================== I can't say for sure whether there is an "intrinsic flaw" in the Abhidhamma or not. I personally find it to be inadequate compared to the suttas, which I believe are largely the actual word of the Buddha. I am not an Abhidhammika. But as to your statement "Something truly good could not be so misunderstood," I must definitely disagree. For centuries, and especially in more recent times since the Dhamma was "discovered" by Europeans, and based primarily on the suttas and not on the hardly-read Abhidhamma, Buddhism has been taken for a pessimistic nihilism! There is far less understanding of Buddhism (of all schools) than understanding of it. So, where there is smoke there is fire? Must there be an intrinsic flaw in the suttas as well? As the Buddha himself said, the Dhamma goes against the stream. It is deep and *not* easily accepted. That doesn't make it a false teaching. Teachings that are easy to accept are typically teachings that accomodate our afflictions, and are typically false teachings. If elements of Abhidhamma appear irrelevant, or silly, or contrary to the teachings in the suttas, for each of which I think a case can be made, then it is reasonable to point out and question those elements. But the mere fact of there being a lot of misunderstanding (real or apparent) of a teaching does not imply the teaching is not good. If that were so, then the Dhamma, itself, would be not good. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27934 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: anapanasati 6 c anapanasati 6 c The fourth tetrad pertains to the contemplation of dhammas (mental objects) in dhammas. We read in the Commentary to the Sutta (translated by Ven. Nyanatiloka) about the explanations of the words of the sutta: : here covetousness is the hindrance of lust. By grief the hindrance of ill will is pointed out. For this tetrad is stated by way of insight. And contemplation of mental objects is sixfold... Of that contemplation, the section on the hindrances is the beginning... Accordingly, he said, in order to point out the beginning of the contemplation of mental objects. (phaana.m) means it is the knowledge of abandoning, thus, that is intended... N: The Co refers to higher stages of insight knowledge leading to more detachment from conditioned realities: fading away (viraaga~naa.na), cessation (nirodha ~naa.na), and relinquishment (pa.tinissagga). We read further on: : because one who proceeds by the method, etc., is one who looks on with complete equanimity after successively seeing with understanding not only the mental objects beginning with the hindrances, but also the knowledge of the abandoning of the mental objects stated under the heading of covetousness and grief. Therefore, it should be understood that Nina: In the Way of Mindfulness, Co translated by Ven. Soma, it is stated that just as in the case of body, feeling and citta, the mental objects should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up. As we have seen, the hindrances are classified under the mental objects, and they include also the khandhas, the sense-bases (ayatanas), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four Truths. Nina 27935 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 49, etc, eyefaculty. Hi Larry, thanks, coming along soon, Nina. op 12-12-2003 01:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > If there are a lot of notes on this section let me know when to go > ahead. No rush, and just translate what is interesting. > 27936 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies Dear Sarah, op 11-12-2003 09:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I look forward to your series on latent tendencies. I agree about the > remedy. The more understanding develops,the less idea there will be of my > akusala’ and thereby the less dwelling and oppression as you say. N: Before I had different ideas of latent tendencies, but this study is an eye opener. It uses many texts from the Yamaka, the sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, which does not have an English translation. The Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka gives a good summary. I had underestimated the strength of latent tendencies, I thought that they are just subtle, and did not pay much heed. I thought, well, only at enlightenment they will be eradicated. They are subtle anyway. But I got the wrong notion of subtle defilements. Now it is repeated again and again that they are strong, powerful, because they are not eradicated. They lie persistant dormant in the series of cittas. And worse: when strong pariyutthana defilement arises with the citta, and falls away, the akusala is added to the latent tendencies. Akusala is heaped up again and again!! Makes us have more work to get rid of it. When the object is right for the defilement, there is the opportunity for being added to the latent tendencies Thus, they change all the time while citta arises and falls away. It is repeated; we are very sick, even when the microbes do not break out. Also the role of feeling which experiences the taste of the object is explained. This helps to have a sense of urgency. I may need to order Yamaka Pali. Also other commentaries, such as the Co to the Path of Discrimination is used and also this is not in English. Nina. 27937 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics, elements. Hello Michael, op 11-12-2003 19:34 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: I may sometimes sound negative in relation to > the Abhidhamma but I want to stress that I really admire it and consider to > be extremely useful for a better understanding. N: You give us food for thought. The wrong is not with the texts but in ourselves, the latent tendencies of clinging and wrong view. And they condition the arising of clinging to any object. As T G said, the terms used can lead to misunderstanding, we can apply them wrongly. I understand your qualms about ultimate or absolute realities. M: I am far from reading all the suttas but I have yet to find a reference to > the five aggregates as paramatha/sabhava. And this is how they are regarded > in the commentaries of the Abhidhamma. It may seem a trivial point but in > fact if someone really believes that there is something that trully exists, > his/her thinking process will be shaped by that understanding. And if that > key assumption turns out to be wrong, his/her understanding will also be > wrong. And as we all know Samma dithi is the forerunner of the whole path. N: I follow you here and consider your last sentence a good reminder. There is the danger to go wrong all the time. Especially when the beginning is already wrong. You wrote to Rob K: If you say hardness is the earth element’ you are clearly stating that hardness belongs to earth element, is an intrinsic part of earth element. What I am saying is that if earth element is conditioned then it is impossible for earth element to have any kind of intrinsic part in it. Earth element as well as hardness are both conditioned. N: The Buddha spoke about dhammas as khandhas, sense-fields (aayatanas) and elements. All with the purpose to become detached from them, not taking them for self. The elements of earth (hardness or softness), fire (heat or cold) and wind (motion or pressure) as used in the Tipitaka represent dhammas we can directly experience, without having to name them.Water cannot be experienced by touch, only through the mind-door. Do touch the table now. Is there hardness? You do not have to name it in order to experience it. The Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint reminds us that there is hardness (earth) in the body, but also outside. When we touch hardness there is no difference, but we do not like to hear this. We find the body very special. We read in the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta also that the Buddha taught Rahula about the elements. Rahula was clinging so much to his body (attaabhaava), but he had to develop vipassanaa pa~n~naa, to realize that there is not the whole body; that what we take for my body are only different elements which fall away immediately. In the ³Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint² Sariputta spoke about the impermanence of outward rupas by explaining about the calamities in nature. Evenso the rupas of the body are impermanent, they fall away immediately. As we have read in the Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: Rahula had to develop understanding not only of materiality, ruupa, but also of mental phenomena, naama, of all five khandhas. When we take them all as a whole, there is the idea of a person. Hearing is naama, a citta that experiences sound, it is not the ruupa that is sound, it is no the ruupa that is earsense. Understanding this, not only by reflection, but by direct understanding of the characteristics of the elements as they appear one at a time must lead to detachment. Clinging to the idea of "I, mine" can decrease. As we read in the Mahaarahulovaadasutta: See, that is the purpose of it all. But as we read in the "Muulapariyaaya Sutta", (The root of Existence and its Commentaries, translated by B.B.): we can go completely wrong. We are bound to go wrong all the time, and it is worse, if we do not realize it. We believe we are aware of the present moment, such as hardness and are delighted. But oh, we are holding on to dhammas. That is why A. Sujin reminds us not to *think* about satipatthana, that induces clinging. One may cling to anything, to breath, to concentration, to calm, to one's practice. We do this when we make it into something important. Now back to the terms. So long as we understand what they represent any term can be used, even sabhava. It is true that in the Suttanta you will not find the term paramattha dhamma. But this does not matter, the purpose of such terms is explained again and again. This term serves to explain the difference between conventional reality (person, table, etc.) and what is not a conventional reality, but only an element: mental or material. The expression: , only means: it can be directly experienced without naming it. If you feel uneasy now, it is aversion or anger. Anger is anger and it cannot be changed into metta. That is the meaning. And also: it is conditioned, beyond control, it falls away immediately, it is non-self. Instead of paramattha dhamma we can use the word dhamma. The term khandha denotes the same as conditioned dhamma. Five khandhas, nama and rupa. Since we are beginners, we keep on having wrong view. When insight is more developed, dhammas will be seen as conditioned, by direct experience. And after that their arising and falling away will be realized. Much later. Nina. 27938 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hello Michael, Thank you very much, I could not find it. Nina. op 12-12-2003 01:46 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > "I have heard that on one occasion, when the Blessed One was newly > Self-awakened, he was staying at Uruvela on the bank of the Nerañjara River, > at the foot of the Goatherd's Banyan Tree. Then, while he was alone and in > seclusion, this line of thinking arose in his awareness: "One suffers if > dwelling without reverence or deference. Now on what priest or contemplative > can I dwell in dependence, honoring and respecting him?" > ..... > "What if I were to dwell in dependence on this very Dhamma to which I have > fully awakened, honoring and respecting it?" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn06-002.html 27939 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, etc. conceit Dear Christine, good points, I combine with another post, a question on cetasikas, conceit. op 10-12-2003 11:21 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Just a thought - what should a *person* do if others indicate they > believe them to have the two worst Defilements, i.e. ditthi (wrong > view) and vicikiccha(sceptical doubt) and not only that, it is > considered they also have the three basic Fetters - sakkaya-ditthi > (personality belief), vicikiccha (sceptical doubt) and > silabbataparamasa (attachment to rules and rituals). Laugh or cry? N: The *they* are surely the texts, Tipitaka and Commentaries. It is true!! Better to know than not knowing the truth about ourselves. Laughing, though motivated by lobha, also helps us to take a certain distance, not to find our reactions too important. Ch: According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be done - > no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? How,then, > can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? N: As Howard said, the study of Abhidhamma should not induce to a lax or passive attitude. No, our study of defilements can induce a healthy sense of urgency. Understanding (not me) knows what to do: very urgent to continue developing. Persevere, have courage. A little more understanding of our defilements is already beneficial. Ch (other post): what I thought was my 'good mannered' deferring to the superior knowledge of others in a group, as compared to my own beginning understanding, was merely a form of omaana (inferiority conceit). I learned that there existed superiority conceit (atimaana) and equality conceit (maana) as well. If 'comparing' is conceit, does this mean that any recognition of difference between self and other is conceit? N: I make it worse. Even when not comparing there is bound to be conceit: my important personality. In India we made lots of examples, and this is real fun!! Let us do that again next time we meet. "He is dressed this way, o, funny." Look at the photographs of dsg, test yourself. Or: I am the Dhamma student, I am the Pali student. What will others think of *me*. With music: I play wrong notes, what will others think, or I play them right, how good I am. Opportunities enough. Ch: I think that it is easy to recognise dosa (anger) when it is strong enough to kill or harm, but I wonder what are some very subtle examples of dosa, lobha, and moha? N: good points. Some are coarse, some more subtle: a slight feeling of uneasiness is more subtle dosa. Or you take a glass of water: there can be lobha with indifferent feeling. Or you take a step forward in the room, plenty when there is no kusala: dana, sila or mental development. That is why Rob M insists so much on the ten bases of kusala. He realizes, when there is no kusala, we act, speak and think with akusala. CH: And the purpose of learning about cetasikas - it's helping us to see the utter anatta-ness of everything? ... just checking .. N: You understand that they arise before you even notice them. Michael would say, in the javana it is too late for yoniso manasikara. Actually, after the mind-door adverting citta the javanas follow so fast, it is nyaama, law of Dhamma. When there are conditions for kusala (even without panna) we can say there is wise attention, and this includes the whole series of javana. Nina. 27940 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from new member Dear Ben, welcome to our group. I appreciate it that you often read suttas. Peerhaps you can share what you read with us? To know the end of suffering is a long way, but a beginning can be made. Nina. op 11-12-2003 20:58 schreef jangchup777 op bj3682@a...: I often read suttas from the Sutta > Pitaka. I would like to understand the Dhamma and know the end of > suffering. 27941 From: nordwest Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / The Doomed March Fly Dear Sarah, The great guru Lama Zopa Rinpoche tell us the story of the fly that circumized a stupa, following a cow that was walking around with a person. She attained rebirth as a humen being because of this. Ven. master Chin Kung and others tell us about the experienment of mind-power, where a dozen Japanese monks concentrated some days on the water in a large japanese damm to be pure and clear. The scientists then took samples and analyzed them, compared the to the water quality before, and found that the water of the damm was freed from defilements, only pure water crystals. We often forget, that we have the buddha nature, the power to do supernatural wonders with the mind. And because of lack of faith we fail to do so. Some may interpret the sutras like the Christians the bible, when it some to the point of supernatural powers, and say, "It's not meant literally. It's exaggeration." I do nt so. I take it literally, because I experience the protection of the buddhas and bodhisattvas daily. Gassho, Thomas Sarah wrote: Hi Thomas, As I wrote another post I remembered your comments on this popular thread and I don't think anyone replied. --- nordwest wrote: > Maybe the fly will reach a higher realm, because now so many buddhists > reflect upon her... .... It's nice to think our reflections might help, but it may be wishful thinking;-) .... >or maybe she had reached perfect enlightenment when > been eaten alive by the ants, like the monk who was eaten by the tiger > in the jungle.... .... Yes, but I think there are a few differences;-) I don't believe it's possible for an ant or animal to become enlightened. The monk developed the necessary wisdom which it's not possible for an animal to do. .... >the ways of karma are unconceiveable. I would rather > hope, she profited from it. ..... I think she'd have to profit from her own good kamma, but as you imply, the killing may have been a helpful decisive factor in this regard. Who knows? Metta, Sarah ====== 27942 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Andrew, Andrew: What I would like to know is - when you talk about things existing or not existing, what time dimension (if any) are you referring to? Are you saying that change occurs within a point of time? That a point of time is just a "snapshot" used for intellectual discussion? Do you believe in "mind moments" (I forget the Pali term)? Michael: Time cannot be regarded as an independent entity on its own right but better as a dependent set of relations among empirical phenomena. Apart from those phenomena and those relations there is no time. Metta Michael 27943 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / The Doomed March Fly Hello Thomas,:-) I think you may mean "circummambulate"? Otherwise this could be a rather mind boggling story ... (I am already wondering if the fly had to walk [in which case, what a magnificent achievement! and how did it keep up?] or if the fly, well, ..flew? And did it know what it was doing? or did it just interestedly follow the cows 'tail end'? I'm smiling Thomas - but thanks for the story, it has made me think a lot about 'the things we do'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest > The great guru Lama Zopa Rinpoche tell us the story of the fly that circumized a stupa, following a cow that was walking around with a person. She attained rebirth as a humen being because of this. 27944 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Misunderstood Teachings (Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 12/12/03 7:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > It seems > > to me that there must be an intrinsic flaw to the Abhidhamma which is > > then exacerbated by the commentaries and those who read it. > > Something truly good could not be so misunderstood. > > > ====================== > I can't say for sure whether there is an "intrinsic flaw" in the > Abhidhamma or not. I personally find it to be inadequate compared to the suttas, > which I believe are largely the actual word of the Buddha. I am not an > Abhidhammika. > But as to your statement "Something truly good could not be so > misunderstood," I must definitely disagree. Hi Howard, Hehehe…I knew as soon as I wrote that sentence that someone would jump on it! Okay, really that sentence was just a vague generalization and I don't feel any faithfulness to it. We can consider it withdrawn. However, I do want to explain a bit as to why I wrote that sentence (which is not argumentative support, just explanation). I truly don't believe that the Buddha-dhamma is horribly difficult to understand. The Buddha's dhamma is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end. Of course when someone who is in the beginning tries to understand the dhamma of the end, there is bound to be misunderstanding; but that would be their fault, not the dhamma's fault. As far as the early Europeans, they were reading really BAD translations of the suttas. If I had read those translations I probably would have thought that Buddhism was nihilism also. I am able to explain the dhamma in terms that even small children can understand, as you may have seen by my letters to the Star Kids; of course I cannot explain adequately anatta and nibbana because they are beyond my level of understanding…but at least I KNOW that. But if even those who are really read and advanced in the Abhidhamma cannot agree with each other about the most basic tenets, and must continually go to an authority figure for explanation, I think there is something seriously wrong there. Before the Buddha passed he said that the Dhamma was to be the teacher after him, no one else. Okay, enough said. You win. ;-)) Metta, James 27945 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:55pm Subject: Tardy replies Hello All, My apologies to all those who have kindly replied to my posts on several threads, and who have heard nothing in return. All your posts are valuable (whether I agree, or disagree). They receive much mulling over and reflecting upon. Many are forwarded to work in case I get time during a lunch break for further consideration. Sometimes extracting 'words out of the mind' and putting 'words on the screen' is a difficult task - not like a flowing conversation. I've been very busy these last couple of weeks. You've heard of the corny one- liner "Usually I take one day at a time, but recently several days have attacked me at once." I feel a little like the cartoon of the Frog caught in the long pointed beak of the Egret, with his 'arms' and 'hands' reaching down, gripping the birds' neck and valiantly attempting to strangle it. The caption reads "NEVER give up". I'll try to put 'mind' in charge of 'keyboard' this weekend and send some responses. Just wanted you to know I get so much help from all the posts, I couldn't get by without them - not sure if I tell you this enough. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27946 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Internal Dust & Dirt! Friends: The 10 mental Defilements (Kilesas) 1: Attachment, Attraction, Lust & Greed. 2: Aversion, Repulsion, Hate, Anger & Irritation. 3: Confusion, Delusion, Ignorance, Not Knowing. 4: Conceit, Pride, Arrogance, The Deceit "I Am". 5: False View, Opinion, Prejudgement, Presumption. 6: Doubt, Uncertainty, Scepticism. 7: Stubbornness, Mental Rigidity, Obstinacy. 8: Restlessness, Agitation, Distractedness, Scatter. 9: Consciencelessness, no internal fear of wrongdoing. 10: Shamelessness, no sense of external decency. Source: The Path Of Purification. All yours in the Dhamma. In Equanimity & even Ease. Friendship is truly Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. 27947 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati 6 c Hi Nina Thanks. It is interesting to note that these commentaries could be verify by study at the suttas. The other day, I went to make a small survey in one small part of SN what Buddha taught in the suttas in developing right understanding by impermanence http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html by anatta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-085.html by not delighting in it http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-115.html by not laying hold of it http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-127.html by not of giving it up http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-024.html Kind regards Ken O 27948 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:08pm Subject: Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa/KKT Hello KKT, and All, KKT: I see that the problem of Anatta perturbs you a lot, does it not? :-)) Christine: I understand intellectually that there is no lasting identity, no personality, just nama (mental phenomena) and rupa (physical phenomena) rising and passing away, continually changing, nothing permanent, nothing staying even for a moment. But when suffering is evident in other beings and myself, it is anatta that seems to be the illusion, not the other way round. I actually had a period recently when I tried to conceive the world and people the way I used to, as lasting things which eventually, over the years, crumble and die - but it no longer seemed valid or satisfying. Having once heard the Dhamma,there is no going back to the old comforting beliefs. But, presently, there is no comfort in the Dhamma. KKT: If you continue to see everything << according >> to Abhidharma then it is not for << real >> :-)) Christine: "What" is not for real? Everything (me, you, the universe and all that)? anatta or the Abhidhamma? KKT: Why don't you try to feel, to sense this << self >> inside yourself? Answer for yourself, "What is it?" Can "it" do anything, control anything? Christine: Not a wise or reliable thing to do. :-) Sensing what is inside, I "feel" exactly as I did when I was a devout Christian - like a chocolate-coated mint candy. The <> is the mint, the chocolate covering is the flesh. The <> mostly feels as if it is in the heart or head area. But I don't know that this feeling/sensing has any validity at all. The <> has no power, other than to control the body. It needs the body in order to "do" things - and the body can't choose to do things by itself - the one depends on the other. I doubt it can control anything (but not absolutely sure) - but, together, the body and "whatever it is" CAN do things together. Try Herman's experiment .. KKT: Feel "it", sense "it" for << real >> Christine: That is just my problem, KKT, it does feel <>. Or did you mean something else by <>? Best wishes, KKT metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" 27949 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies Hi Nina This also confirmed my intuitive believe that latent tendecies are strong and not subtle. Usually when I was mindful of an anger, when I investigate it further, there was a strong notion of a self. This means moha has also got to be very strong in inducing the notion of self supported by our latent tendecies. kind regards Ken O 27950 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Howard, Herman and Michael (and Sarah), I owe each of you a reply (and I owe Sarah several but they might have to wait). After a few days away from the computer, [giving my poor eyes a rest], I'd like to take up where we left off. Howard, you commented on my message to Michael; You quoted the dictionary definition of essence and then offered your analysis. I have combined the two below along with my own comments: ----------------- Dictionary 1 a : the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being ----------------- H: > Meaning 1 a): Atta or self //In this sense, Buddhism accepts no essence// ----------------- Why do you compare 'permanent' with 'anatta?' I would have thought anicca would have been more to the point. Not that I have much opinion on 1 a, I don't know what "the accidental element of being" refers to, so I won't comment. ---------------- Dictionary b : the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence ------------ H: > Meaning 1 b): Defining or distinguishing characteristic // (i) For paramattha dhammas, the dhamma and its distinguishing characteristic or condition are one and the same, making this notion rather empty. -------------- Interrupting you there; Isn't the dictionary agreeing with the Abhidhamma? Isn't it saying the essence of a thing and the thing itself are one and the same? When you say the Abhidhamma notion is rather empty, that would have to apply to the dictionary notion too, I think. (Here, the dictionary is distinguishing 'essence,' not from the thing, but from its 'existence') You continued: ------------- Hardness isn't warmth - they don't get confused. So what? That needn't be raised to the level of a grand metaphysical principle. --------------- Sounds like sour grapes, Howard. :-) The rupa that is hardness is not the rupa that is temperature; that's all the Abhidhamma is saying (and the dictionary would agree). It's you who is making a big deal out of it (if not a grand metaphysical principle). -------------- Dictionary c : the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is --------------- H: > (ii) For conventional objects, this is a perfectly reasonable though often vague and unidentifiable notion (What is the defining characteristic of a tree?), and is not particularly important for the Dhamma.// ------------- Not important for the small-d dhamma but vitally important for the capital-d Dhamma, I would think. In order that we can directly know a dhamma, the Dhamma teaches us to identify it and categorise it according to its properties. --------------------- 2 : something that exists --------------- Meaning 2: Something having atta or self (Buddhist perspective on this: No selves, no entities.) -------------- No, no, the dictionary is saying something that exists has essence. How can anything that exists not have essence? No essence, no existence; no existence, no essence. I think the dictionary has done a very good job. On the other hand, I think your analysis of it has been faulty (go to the back of the class:-) ). In this last instance, for example, you jump from "existence" to "self" as if they were one and the same. Nothing could be further from the truth: A dhamma exists by virtue of having its own essence; The Buddha has taught us that a part of that essence is the characteristic known as anatta (non-self). Anatta is not, as you would have us believe, non-existence. Replies to Herman and Michael coming up, I hope. Kind regards, Ken H ps 'No replies [yet] to Sarah' does not mean I concede defeat :-) 27951 From: robmoult Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:03am Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Christine, > ===== > > > I wasn't stating whether or not the present moment should be > > different - I was asking what proof there is for the Buddhist > > explanation of why it is as it is (Kalama sutta). > > I strongly disagree that that good -->good and that bad -->bad is > an > > evidently common experience. Maybe in a small and protected > circle > > for a short period of time, but not in the real world. > > ===== Let me try a different approach to thinking about kamma that might help. Consider the body and its health. If we eat properly and exercise regularly, the body systems will be healthy. The body is a natural system and if you treat it properly, it will generally be healthy. Imagine a person dying of lung cancer who says, "It's not right. I gave up my three pack a day habit more than a year ago, why should I get lung cancer?" Of course, the answer is that to understand the health of the body, one has to look at more than the most recent 12 months. If we understand anatta, we know that the mind is also a natural process. Mental states arise because of conditions. Why do "unhealthy mental states" or "healthy mental states" arise? They arise because of conditions that support them. Just as we cannot understand the current health of a person by looking at just the past 12 months, we cannot understanding the conditions that support the mental conditions by looking at the immediate past. Not sure if this helps at all. Metta, Rob M :-) 27952 From: robmoult Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:13am Subject: Kamma Hi All, Is the "law of kamma" the same as "kamma condition" in the Patthana? Kamma condition talks about mental states in the past being conditions for current mental states, nothing more. The conditioning state for kamma condition is the cetana cetasika in 33 past kusala and akusala cittas. The conditioned states for kamma condition are the 36 vipaka cittas (plus their associated 38 cetasikas) and kamma- born rupa. In other words, kamma condition is purely mental (plus kamma-born rupa). It is therefore not correct to say that incidents that happen to you arise because of kamma condition. Incidents are not mental states. Incidents that happen to you arise because of a complex set of conditions, but it would seem that it is not appropriate to talk of kamma when discussing incidents. People do talk of incidents happening "because of kamma". Is this incorrect? Metta, Rob M :-) 27953 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:26am Subject: On more questions Hi James' Thank you for a reply for each letter and for each question. You said that I can see photos that you're in and I've seen them, it is marvellous, I've never seen such a nice view of a temple. I'm sorry to bother you but I still have some questions to ask you: 1 Why do sports bore you? 2 Are you a student of buddha? 3 If buddha is still alive now, how old is he? 4 Will you celebrate Christmas? From Janet 27954 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:28am Subject: spirits Dear Robert Do you get the feeling that you are not alone and people are always behind you or even above you? What do buddhists think about spirit and the afterlife? How do you know Mrs Abbott? Charles 27955 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:48am Subject: Re: spirits Dear Charles, I have questions like this in Thailand sometimes and I tell the Thai people that farang (western people) can't see phi (ghosts) or deva (angelic beings). That doesn't mean they don't exist and in fact I believe they do- but I don't have the capacity to see them. And of course some people think they see such things but they are just over imaginative. I think spirits have their own busy lives and don't have much to do with us humans. I met Mrs and Mr. Abbot about 12 years ago -before you were born- in Thailand and then I came and stayed with them for 2 weeks in Hong Kong, we are best friends. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear Robert > Do you get the feeling that you are not alone and > people are always behind you or even above you? What > do buddhists think about spirit and the afterlife? How > do you know Mrs Abbott? > > Charles > > > 27956 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Herman, ------------ H: > I am Captain Akusala from a former existence. ------------ Pleased to meet you :-) ------------- H: > How did you come to the conclusion that the concepts kusala/akusala are not dependent on a point of view? ---------------- Do you mean; "What a strange conclusion, how did you reach it?" Or do you mean; "To whom are you indebted for that gem of intellectual understanding?" In either case, I wouldn't have it any other way. If kusala/akusala depended on a point of view, there would be no sense in the world -- it would be one never ending debate; "You think this is good; I think it is bad. . ." Kusala kamma bears pleasant fruit; akusala kamma, unpleasant fruit. All the endless points of view, over which is kusala and which is akusala, are without influence -- the results will be the same. ------------- H: > What allows you to know the results of intention, and how to classify those results, without recourse to a conceptual superstructure that is noone's point of view? ------------- Consciousness at the sense doors knows the results of intentional action (vipaka). Mind-door consciousness knows mental states accumulated by all kinds of intention. They take no recourse in conceptual superstructure, they depend solely on conditions -- other paramattha dhammas. If panna (right understanding) is not present, then there is no way of telling which is which. Points of view have no influence. Is that what you were asking? Kind regards, Ken H . 27957 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello KenH, KenH: No, no, the dictionary is saying something that exists has essence. How can anything that exists not have essence? No essence, no existence; no existence, no essence … A dhamma exists by virtue of having its own essence; The Buddha has taught us that a part of that essence is the characteristic known as anatta (non-self). Anatta is not, as you would have us believe, non-existence. Michael: Existence and non-existence are the two extremes avoided by the Buddha. You are falling into the trap of grasping to those extremes. Instead of existence/non-existence try to think of conditioned existence instead. That everything exits based on causes and conditions, and in that case things neither exist (with essence, since a conditioned thing cannot have an essence), nor do they not exist, because things can perform functions, we know because we experience that. If you cannot see that, I am sorry to say that I think you are hopelessly lost to the eternalist camp. Metta Michael 27958 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:48am Subject: approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Dear Larry and all, The commentaries use many similes to explain the senses. We should go deeper into these texts in order to understand the purpose of the similes and explanations. Otherwise we do not profit to the full from the texts. The eye is compared to and it is not bigger than a louse head. . Louse head, goat's hoof, those are not attractive images. The Expositor (311) states as to the tongue:like the upper part of a torn lotus leaf. Not beautiful. These similes help us to see the foulness of the body, one of the meditation subjects for all occasions. And what is the purpose of that meditation? To remind us that what we take for our beautiful body are only rupas that are non-self. To see the body in the body. And this is repeated for each of the senses:< It has assistance, consolidation, and maintenance in the way aforesaid; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door...> The rupas that are the senses arise in a group of rupas, they need the assistance of theother rupas in that group, they are conditioned. Also the similes about the anthill have as purpose: to explain the particular conditions for each of the senses. The Expositor expands more and I added part of it in my footnotes. We have to take them in the right sense, they are very daily, simple reminders that can help us to understand them as just conditioned rupas. The bodysense is compared to a jackal who desires to be in a charnal ground where he can eat raw human flesh. Evenso the tactile sense desires matter grasped at (upadi.n.na), and takes tangible object dependent on the extension element (N:solidity or earth). The Expositor explains . It is also said that one does not know the hardness or softness of a bed without sitting down in it, and of fruits placed in the hand without pressing them. Very daily examples to remind us of the element of hardness, external and internal. It can be object of awareness now. What is the use of all these texts if they do not remind us of the dhamma appearing now. The bodysense is The bodysense is all over the body, and it is base at that point where there is impingement of tactile object. There can only be impingement at one point at a time. As you will see, at the end of my Tiika translation it is said: The word papa~nca, obsession, is used to give us an extra stab with the goad. We are obsessed by sense impressions. Therefore understanding of dhammas has to be developed at this moment. The Expositor clarifies the real purpose of all these similes and explanations by stating about the eyesense (308, 309): We never have enough of seeing, we cannot be satisfied, it is like an ocean. <'And this is an empty village,' refers to its being common to many and to the absence of a possessor.> There is no owner who can exert control. It is empty of essence as we read. Nina. P.s. Scroll down to my footnotes of the translation I will send, for more elaboration. 27959 From: Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:17am Subject: I-Making (Re: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa/KKT) Hi,Christine (and KKT) - In a message dated 12/13/03 2:08:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hello KKT, and All, > > KKT: I see that the problem > of Anatta perturbs you a lot, > does it not? :-)) > > Christine: I understand intellectually that there is no lasting > identity, no personality, just nama (mental phenomena) and rupa > (physical phenomena) rising and passing away, continually changing, > nothing permanent, nothing staying even for a moment. But when > suffering is evident in other beings and myself, it is anatta that > seems to be the illusion, not the other way round. I actually had a > period recently when I tried to conceive the world and people the way > I used to, as lasting things which eventually, over the years, > crumble and die - but it no longer seemed valid or satisfying. Having > once heard the Dhamma,there is no going back to the old comforting > beliefs. But, presently, there is no comfort in the Dhamma. > > KKT: If you continue to see everything > <>to Abhidharma > then it is not for <>:-)) > > Christine: "What" is not for real? Everything (me, you, the universe > and all that)? anatta or the Abhidhamma? > > KKT: Why don't you try to feel, to sense > this <>inside yourself? > Answer for yourself, "What is it?" > Can "it" do anything, control anything? > > Christine: Not a wise or reliable thing to do. :-) Sensing what is > inside, I "feel" exactly as I did when I was a devout Christian - > like a chocolate-coated mint candy. The <> is > the mint, the chocolate covering is the flesh. The > <> mostly feels as if it is in the heart or head > area. But I don't know that this feeling/sensing has any validity at > all. The <> has no power, other than to control > the body. It needs the body in order to "do" things - and the body > can't choose to do things by itself - the one depends on the other. > I doubt it can control anything (but not absolutely sure) - but, > together, the body and "whatever it is" CAN do things together. Try > Herman's experiment .. > > KKT: Feel "it", sense "it" for <> > > Christine: That is just my problem, KKT, it does feel <>. Or > did you mean something else by <>? > > Best wishes, > > KKT > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================ It seems to me that primarily what is being sensed is: the seeing of fuzzily bounded visual ports to the world of sight (the eye sockets) and the hearing of sounds, both experienced as in the head area, plus thoughts and volition, which also seem to go through the head area. Sight, sound, and thought-volition all seem centered at the head area, and it is these three senses of seeing, hearing, and mind that most folks, I believe, consider to be primary (whereas smell, taste, and touch are sometimes lumped together by the Buddha as "sensing"). We tend to mainly identify with these three head-centered senses, and thus that seems to be where "we" are located (with an occasional emotional excursion to the throat and heart for some of us). I think that realizing that the head area is simply a primary focus of attention and volitional activity may be helpful to us - there's no self there, just an important locus of activity. It is not "self" and body that work together to get things done, it is mind and body in the sense of nama and rupa, as in the Buddha's metaphor of the blind but mobile man (body) carrying the lame but sighted man (awareness) with the awareness serving to direct. These are two complementary fields of experience and function which cooperatively co-occur to get things done, all impersonally. At the core of this is volition, the power source, and it is our reification of and identification with that function, along with the head-centered functions of seeing, hearing, and thinking, that constitute the primary basis for our I-making. Because of our identifying with the function of volition, we sense and believe in a self that wills, thinks, sees, and hears (and secondarily tastes, smells, and has tactile experience). At least this is my theory. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27960 From: Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/13/03 2:22:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, Herman and Michael (and Sarah), > > I owe each of you a reply (and I owe Sarah several but > they might have to wait). After a few days away from the > computer, [giving my poor eyes a rest], I'd like to take > up where we left off. > > Howard, you commented on my message to Michael; You > quoted the dictionary definition of essence and then > offered your analysis. I have combined the two below > along with my own comments: > > ----------------- > Dictionary 1 a : the permanent as contrasted with the > accidental element of being > ----------------- > H: >Meaning 1 a): Atta or self //In this sense, Buddhism > accepts no essence// > ----------------- > > Why do you compare 'permanent' with 'anatta?' I would > have thought anicca would have been more to the point. > Not that I have much opinion on 1 a, I don't know what > "the accidental element of being" refers to, so I won't > comment. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not dealing with the exact words of the def'n, but its meaning. The contrasting with accidental is the main point. What is not accidental is essential. An essence or core of something is its "self". Such an alleged thing is permanent, where what is accidental is not permanent, but it is true, self-existent "being" of something that is its "essence" or "self". ------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------- > Dictionary b : the individual, real, or ultimate nature > of a thing especially as opposed to its existence > ------------ > H: >Meaning 1 b): Defining or distinguishing > characteristic // (i) For paramattha dhammas, the dhamma > and its distinguishing characteristic or condition are > one and the same, making this notion rather empty. > -------------- > > Interrupting you there; Isn't the dictionary agreeing > with the Abhidhamma? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. -------------------------------------------------- Isn't it saying the essence of a > > thing and the thing itself are one and the same? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Here it is pointing out the sense of 'essence' that is "distinguishing characteristic". It is a misleading usage of 'essence' in my opinion, dangerous because of the possibility of confusing it with the atta sense of 'essence'. To say that the essence of a thing *is* that thing is to trivialize the term 'essence'. The application of essence to conventional objects, while vague, makes some sense. The application of it to paramattha dhammas is an exercise in vacuity, or even worse. It amounts to nothing more than the assertion of the tautology "A is A". But "A is A" is already a hazard - in fact, A is *not* just A. In fact, A is *nothing* in and of itself, but is completely dependent upon the coming together of other equally empty conditions. ------------------------------------------------ When > > you say the Abhidhamma notion is rather empty, that > would have to apply to the dictionary notion too, I think. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, because you can rest assured that the dictionary writer knows nothing of paramattha dhammas. ------------------------------------------------ > > (Here, the dictionary is distinguishing 'essence,' not from > the thing, but from its 'existence') > > You continued: > ------------- > Hardness isn't warmth - they don't get confused. So what? > That needn't be raised to the level of a grand > metaphysical principle. > --------------- > > Sounds like sour grapes, Howard. :-) The rupa that is > hardness is not the rupa that is temperature; that's all > the Abhidhamma is saying (and the dictionary would > agree). It's you who is making a big deal out of it (if > not a grand metaphysical principle). -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It's not sour grapes at all. I agree that Abhidhamma means nothing more by 'sabhava' than "distinguishing characteristic". (Thank goodness!) I simply think that using a term like 'sabhava' that literally means "own being"/"own nature"/"essence" is a confusing move, and the proof is in the putting - Mahayanists (and many Theravadins) take 'sabhava' to mean "true, self-existent core." I am not making a grand, metaphysical principle out of paramattha dhammas being distinguishable. Of course they are! When that fact is enshrined by labeling it as 'sabhava' or 'essence', that is when one enters upon metaphysics. --------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > Dictionary c : the properties or attributes by means of > which something can be placed in its proper class or > identified as being what it is > --------------- > H: >(ii) For conventional objects, this is a perfectly > reasonable though often vague and unidentifiable notion > (What is the defining characteristic of a tree?), and is > not particularly important for the Dhamma.// > ------------- > > Not important for the small-d dhamma but vitally > important for the capital-d Dhamma, I would think. > In order that we can directly know a dhamma, the Dhamma > teaches us to identify it and categorise it according to its > properties. > > --------------------- > 2 : something that exists > --------------- > Meaning 2: Something having atta or self (Buddhist > perspective on this: No selves, no entities.) > -------------- > > No, no, the dictionary is saying something that exists > has essence. How can anything that exists not have > essence? No essence, no existence; no existence, no > essence. I think the dictionary has done a very good > job. On the other hand, I think your analysis of it has > been faulty (go to the back of the class:-) ). In this > last instance, for example, you jump from "existence" to > "self" as if they were one and the same. Nothing could > be further from the truth: A dhamma exists by virtue of > having its own essence; > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is substantialism, Ken, whether you realize it or not. ---------------------------------------------- The Buddha has taught us that a> > part of that essence is the characteristic known as > anatta (non-self). ---------------------------------------------- Howard: What a hoot! This is self-contradictory. The Buddha would never speak in such terms. --------------------------------------------- Anatta is not, as you would have us> > believe, non-existence. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I wouldn't have anybody believe that. Anatta is absence of core or essence - it is not nonexistence. It is dependent, relational existence. Whatever arises is a thing-in-relation, not a thing-in-and-of-itself. Emptiness is neither self-existence nor non-existence, it is conditional, dependent existence as expressed, for example, in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. It is the middle way. ----------------------------------------------- > Replies to Herman and Michael coming up, I hope. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ps 'No replies [yet] to Sarah' does not mean I concede > defeat :-) > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27961 From: Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael (and Ken) - In a message dated 12/13/03 9:22:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > If you cannot see that, I am sorry to say that I think you are hopelessly > lost to the eternalist camp. > ========================= Is being hopelessly lost "forever"? ;-)) With eternal metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27962 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Howard, Howard: Is being hopelessly lost "forever"? ;-)) Michael: As long as there is clinging to that view (eternalism), it will make a nice merry go round in samsara. Metta Michael 27963 From: robmoult Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:25pm Subject: Your signature line (was [dsg] Re: characteristics) Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Michael (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 12/13/03 9:22:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, > mbeisert@h... writes: > > > If you cannot see that, I am sorry to say that I think you are hopelessly > > lost to the eternalist camp. > > > ========================= > Is being hopelessly lost "forever"? ;-)) > > With eternal metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) "Eternal metta" and "fleeting world"? FYI, I happened to be reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Samyutta Nikaya and came across the following (Sn 22.95) which made me think of your signature line: Form is like a lump of foam, Feeling like a water bubble; Perception is like a mirage, Volitions like a plantain trunk, And consciousness is like an illusion. Here is the first part of Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on this Sutta: One evening, while dwelling in that abode, the Blessed One came out from his fragrant cottage and sat down by the bank of the Ganges. He saw a great lump of foam coming downstream and throught, "I will give a Dhamma talk relating to the five aggregates." The he addressed the bhikkhus sitting around him. The sutta is one of the most radical discourses on the empty nature of conditioned phenomena; its imagery (especially the similes of the mirage and the magical illusion) has been taken up by later Buddhist thinkers, most persistently by the Madhyamikas. Some of the images are found elsewhere in the Pali Canon, e.g. at Dhp 46, 170. In the context of early Buddhist thought these similes have to be handled with care. They are not intended to suggest an illusionist view of the world but to show that our conceptions of the world, and of our own existence, are largely distorted by the process of cognition. Just as the mirage and the magical illusion are based on real existents - the sand of the desert, the magician's appurtenances - so these false conceptions arise from a base that objectively exists, namely the five aggregates; but when seen through a mind subject to conceptual distortion, the aggregates appear in a way that deviates from their actual nature. Instead of being seen as transient and selfless, they appear as substantial and self. Here is verse 46 of the Dhammapada: Knowing that this body is like foam, and comprehending its mirage- nature, one should destroy the flower-shafts of sensual passions (Mara) and pass beyond the sight of the king of death. Here is verse 170 of the Dhammapada: Just as one would look upon a bubble, just as one would look upon a mirage - if a person thus looks upon the world, the King of Death sees him not. Howard, I am curious as to why you picked the signature line that you did (from the Diamond Sutra). Metta, Rob M :-) 27964 From: Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: Your signature line (was [dsg] Re: characteristics) Hi, Rob - In a message dated 12/13/03 5:27:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > "Eternal metta" and "fleeting world"? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, Of course I only said "eternal" to pick up on Michael's "eternalist camp". It would have been better to say "ever-renewing" metta, but then that wouldn't have worked as well! ---------------------------------------------------- > > FYI, I happened to be reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the > Samyutta Nikaya and came across the following (Sn 22.95) which made > me think of your signature line: > Form is like a lump of foam, > Feeling like a water bubble; > Perception is like a mirage, > Volitions like a plantain trunk, > And consciousness is like an illusion. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, sure. It's material like this (also to be found in the Sutta Nipata) that surely served as the basis for the Diamond Sutra material. ------------------------------------------------- > > Here is the first part of Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary on this Sutta: > One evening, while dwelling in that abode, the Blessed One came out > from his fragrant cottage and sat down by the bank of the Ganges. He > saw a great lump of foam coming downstream and throught, "I will > give a Dhamma talk relating to the five aggregates." The he > addressed the bhikkhus sitting around him. > The sutta is one of the most radical discourses on the empty nature > of conditioned phenomena; its imagery (especially the similes of the > mirage and the magical illusion) has been taken up by later Buddhist > thinkers, most persistently by the Madhyamikas. Some of the images > are found elsewhere in the Pali Canon, e.g. at Dhp 46, 170. In the > context of early Buddhist thought these similes have to be handled > with care. They are not intended to suggest an illusionist view of > the world but to show that our conceptions of the world, and of our > own existence, are largely distorted by the process of cognition. > Just as the mirage and the magical illusion are based on real > existents - the sand of the desert, the magician's appurtenances - > so these false conceptions arise from a base that objectively > exists, namely the five aggregates; but when seen through a mind > subject to conceptual distortion, the aggregates appear in a way > that deviates from their actual nature. Instead of being seen as > transient and selfless, they appear as substantial and self. > > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: They are not intended to give a nihilist view of the world, but I think they *are* intended to display an illusionist view of the world. Form and feeling, while seeming substantial, are fragile and fleeting like foam and a bubble, perception is like a mirage, volition is hollow, and consciousness, which we so often take for a self, is like an illusion. Elsewhere the Buddha likens consciousness to a magician, and, thus, the world to a magic show . These are the khandhas the Buddha is discussing, and he says that they are not at all what they seem. That is exactly what illusion is. It is the rope appearing to be a snake. ------------------------------------------------- > > Here is verse 46 of the Dhammapada: > Knowing that this body is like foam, and comprehending its mirage- > nature, one should destroy the flower-shafts of sensual passions > (Mara) and pass beyond the sight of the king of death. > > Here is verse 170 of the Dhammapada: > Just as one would look upon a bubble, just as one would look upon a > mirage - if a person thus looks upon the world, the King of Death > sees him not. > > > Howard, I am curious as to why you picked the signature line that > you did (from the Diamond Sutra). > > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Because I think it expresses beautifully the fragile, ephemeral, and empty nature of phenomena. I love all the other materials of this sort you quoted as well, but this has a poetic flair that particularly appeals to me. I gain the most from poetic expressions of the Dhamma - that is part of my "accumulations". ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27965 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hello Azita, You wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > Christine, I know your strong accumulations for justice, fairness > and equality - remember our discussion in the back of Betty's > brother-in-law's vehicle while we drove round Chiangmai? I sensed > then that you probably suffer along with those you care for - > I'm not saying that these people actually 'want' to suffer, no one > does, but I believe for the sake of liberation, one can only save > oneself, by developing the right understanding of this present > moment, to know this moment is only nama and rupa and very transitory. > Once there is the realization that it can't be any other way, > then there is a degree of freedom. <<>> my point here > is, that much of our days are spent in stories, even horrible stories > about atrocious things. In reality, it is sound, visible object, > thinking, feeling etc all real and can be known for what they really > are, impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita I understand that one can only 'save' oneself. I think all of us with loved ones not interested in the Dhamma have to come to that realisation and move gently or risk damage to relationships. I agree that once something has happened it can't be made to 'not have happened'. Living in the present moment all the time, knowing everything as just nama and rupa is not yet something I can do, but I do thank you for the reminder - I tend to forget. But if I ever can maintain an awareness of that, I still think assisting in the alleviation of suffering will be a separate matter. It is irrelevant, surely, whether everything is the result of previous kamma or not. If it is or if it isn't - I think karuna and metta should be shown "in action" to help bring ease and comfort. IMHO we can take analysing mind moments to extreme. If someone is suffering and they are in need of assistance, whether or not we decide our impulse to help stems from a mind moment of dosa at not being able to stand the sight of their pain, or one of selfless love and compassion for another who is suffering (just *I* have suffered uncountable times in the past, and, no doubt, will suffer uncountable times in the future), the alleviation of suffering will still be a good thing. Allowing *some-one* to continue to suffer when one has the ability to relieve it, and ascerting that a flicker in the mind is the kusala compassion the Blessed One spoke about is not something I believe is true or can understand. (I know you didn't mean to suggest that, but I've received this impression before on this list - as if, because there is no-self, and there is really no-one who is suffering, there is no need really to feel for others or do anything - and it is their kamma anyway.) [Hot up your way, Azita? allegedly only 32C here, but as the weather reading station is in the balmy ocean breezes at the mouth of the river, who knows what the thermometer actually reads for we unfortunates living 50 km inland? The dog actually 'wanted' a bath today, imagine that!]] metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" 27966 From: Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Nina, Re: N. "The commentaries use many similes to explain the senses. We should go deeper into these texts in order to understand the purpose of the similes and explanations. Otherwise we do not profit to the full from the texts. The eye is compared to and it is not bigger than a louse head." L: I think the eye organ is like a blue lotus petal but the eye sense is not bigger than a louse's head. If you had looked at that photo of a louse head I sent you you would know it is just a dot. There must be many (?) of these dots of eye sense in the eye, presumably each one an eye base. I liked your treatment of the senses as pointing toward revulsion with the body. This made me wonder if it says anywhere in scripture or commentary that it is a disadvantage to be blind or deaf, and if so, why? I have many times thought it would be a great advantage to be deaf. Plus I like sign language. I wish I could do it. But I think I am more likely to loose my sight in old age. Larry 27967 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael I was agreeing that, in one way, essence does mean a dhamma 'does not depend on another.' Its nature is its own essence, it does not depend on what you or I might want, or believe, it to be. Your response was: ------------- M: > Yes, and this is why there is so much attachment to some form of reification, ------------- You would have to explain that for me. -------------- M: > which is the same as going with the flow. And that is why it is said that Buddhist teachings go against the stream. ------------- The Dhamma goes against the stream in the sense that it goes against belief in an eternal self and belief in an annihilated-self. The mistake you and Howard have been making, has been to equate existence of dhammas with existence of self. This is an easy mistake but, please, it's time to rectify it. I can see it will be hard to rectify if you have a revered teacher (Nagarjuna), who has made the same mistake. My commiserations :-) Kind regards, Ken H. 27968 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:25pm Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hello RobM, and All, It does help Rob, thank you. Behaviour that causes certain changes to happen in mental and physical phenomena, together with other occurrences, sets up a cascade of further occurrences in the future. This is how I understand Conditionality. And Conditions stretch backwards into a seeming infinity of beginningless time. As an example, I tried to look at the conditions for my studying Dhamma (that I know of), not including anything exotic like having been a monk in a past life, or having known Ananda under another Buddha aeons ago. (Wouldn't that be lovely :-) :-)) I wouldn't be studying Dhamma except for Captain Cook, the Tsarist repression in Poland after the Congress of Vienna, the music lessons a young boy had in rural England, and The British Raj in India, and my divorce. My paternal (insert number of Greats) grandfather and his five brothers escaped from Poland after the January Uprising of 1863 because of tsarist repression, emigrated to Scotland and then to Australia . My maternal(insert number of Greats)grandfather gained a Commission in the British Army as a bandmaster, went to India, demobbed to Australia, met and married my maternal great ++ grandmother. And that isn't even looking into the history of how the great grandmothers came to be exactly wherever it was they were when the great grandfathers first laid eyes on them. There would have been a billion more conditions ranging from who discovered the technology that allowed large ships to navigate out of sight of land, Captain Cooks' upbringing, the fact of someone even hearing that they could migrate to Australia etc. etc. etc. And everyone of us could have a billion other conditions as well. Conditionality is awesome and fathomless, don't you think? But - sudden, unexpected, wonderful happenings or terrible catastrophes don't seem *connected* and *traceable* in the way conditionality is. If everything else that I can think of can be understood by way of conditionality, then I will (for the moment)take on trust that even those things that seem to be out of the blue MUST be the result of some logical process - otherwise it would wreck the web of all the other conditioned events. ...I can't see how it works though. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > ===== > > > > > I wasn't stating whether or not the present moment should be > > > different - I was asking what proof there is for the Buddhist > > > explanation of why it is as it is (Kalama sutta). > > > I strongly disagree that that good -->good and that bad -->bad > is > > an > > > evidently common experience. Maybe in a small and protected > > circle > > > for a short period of time, but not in the real world. > > > > ===== > > Let me try a different approach to thinking about kamma that might > help. > > Consider the body and its health. If we eat properly and exercise > regularly, the body systems will be healthy. The body is a natural > system and if you treat it properly, it will generally be healthy. > Imagine a person dying of lung cancer who says, "It's not right. I > gave up my three pack a day habit more than a year ago, why should I > get lung cancer?" Of course, the answer is that to understand the > health of the body, one has to look at more than the most recent 12 > months. > > If we understand anatta, we know that the mind is also a natural > process. Mental states arise because of conditions. Why > do "unhealthy mental states" or "healthy mental states" arise? They > arise because of conditions that support them. Just as we cannot > understand the current health of a person by looking at just the > past 12 months, we cannot understanding the conditions that support > the mental conditions by looking at the immediate past. > > Not sure if this helps at all. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 27969 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 8:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hello Howard, and all, Christine: I liked this post very much, Howard. Thank you. Looking back over some of my own old posts I noticed, here and there, that the yearning for comfort is mentioned a fair few times - not sure what cetasikas are involved - craving for sure, and dosa. I notice that the Pali word for 'comfort' is sukha and its opposite is asukha which means dukkha. So the yearning I have is for 'not- dukha'(not such a surprise!). And to get there means taking that long Way home. ========================== Howard: I think that Abhidhamma, while not the direct word of the Buddha, is still far better than the picture you paint. I think that the hopelessness, total-lack-of-control take on Abhidhamma is an extreme interpretation put forward by some (and approximated in varying degrees by many) that skates on a tiny patch of thin ice right between the treacherous areas of lockstep determinism and utter randomness. I think it is a kind of nihilist position that is a dangerous near-enemy of the Dhamma. Christine: I have difficulty with accepting 'total lack of control'. I can see that I don't have total control - otherwise I'd be happy and healthy all the time (not to mention rich, beautiful, forever young, and have no-one I love leave, die or be unhappy either). I think there is a difference between deciding with some certainty to do something (i.e. study Dhamma, travel) and having total control that the action will be completed. That depends on what conditions are like at the time. (And I suppose someone could say that either there is total control or none.) ------------------------------------------------- Christine: How,then, > > can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: By following the Buddha's prescription for the cultivation of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. By constantly reminding oneself of the teachings, and applying them. By being consistently kind and respectful, by calming the mind further with focussed meditation, and by being constantly watchful *with an eye* towards seeing the tilakkhana in all dhammas. With regard to this last, I have recently "discovered" that the Dhamma is to be seen right here and now in this psychophysical flow of experience with a richness and potential that is *amazing*. Just seeing, really seeing, how nothing at all (sights, for example) remain for even a moment is a revelation! The world speeds away at a breathtaking rate, perhaps infinite. How can one time the duration of what doesn't last at all? Other than the original teachings of the Buddha, I find no books or papers these days that are of any real help to me, but this lack is more than balanced by the richness of support that reality itself provides. -------------------------------------------------- Christine: I am so happy for you Howard - your practice seems to be going very well. Is there anymore you can say, or at least would wish to say about how you "discovered" this? I realise it probably is inexpressible. I know you were speaking above of seeing anicca, anatta and dukkha in the present moment - but I thought you might like a poem that helped me see that the Chiggala sutta - the one about the overwhelming rarity of human birth, the blind turtle who surfaced every hundred years, the yoke with the single hole, and the stunning truth of beginningless time, was meant to be taken seriously. Human re-birth is amazingly unlikely, subject to so many conditions. So, I'd better stop wasting time, and get on with it. :-) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-048.html "Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown And things seem sad or tough And people are useless, or obnoxious, or daft, And you feel that you've had quite enough... Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving revolving at nine-hundred miles an hour and orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned a sun that is the source of all our power. Now the sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see Are moving a million miles a day In an outer spiral arm at forty thousand miles an hour of the galaxy we call the Milky Way. Our galaxy itself contains a hundred million stars, it's a hundred thousand light-years side to side, it bulges in the middle, sixty thousand light-years thick, but out by us it's just three thousand light-years wide. We're thiry thousand light-years from galactic central point We go 'round every two hundred million years, and our galaxy itself is one of millions of billions in this Amazing and Expanding Universe! The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding in all of the directions it can whiz, as fast as it can go, the speed of light, y'know, twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is, So remember when you're feeling very small and insecure How amazingly unlikely is your birth, And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'Cause there's bugger-all down here on Earth." "From Monty Python's _The Meaning of Life_: Metta and peace, Christine ---The Trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: 27970 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 8:14pm Subject: I-Making (Re: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa/KKT) Hello Howard (KKT) and All, Howard said: "It seems to me that primarily what is being sensed is: the seeing of fuzzily bounded visual ports to the world of sight (the eye sockets) and the hearing of sounds, both experienced as in the head area, plus thoughts and volition, which also seem to go through the head area. Sight, sound, and thought-volition all seem centered at the head area, and it is these three senses of seeing, hearing, and mind that most folks, I believe, consider to be primary (whereas smell, taste, and touch are sometimes lumped together by the Buddha as "sensing"). We tend to mainly identify with these three head-centered senses, and thus that seems to be where "we" are located (with an occasional emotional excursion to the throat and heart for some of us). I think that realizing that the head area is simply a primary focus of attention and volitional activity may be helpful to us - there's no self there, just an important locus of activity. It is not "self" and body that work together to get things done, it is mind and body in the sense of nama and rupa, as in the Buddha's metaphor of the blind but mobile man (body) carrying the lame but sighted man (awareness) with the awareness serving to direct. These are two complementary fields of experience and function which cooperatively co-occur to get things done, all impersonally. At the core of this is volition, the power source, and it is our reification of and identification with that function, along with the head-centered functions of seeing, hearing, and thinking, that constitute the primary basis for our I-making. Because of our identifying with the function of volition, we sense and believe in a self that wills, thinks, sees, and hears (and secondarily tastes, smells, and has tactile experience). At least this is my theory." With metta, Howard Christine: Your theory is extremely helpful to me - Even accepting the teaching on anatta, and using what I have learned of Abhidhamma to dissect, fragment, and disprove the solid idea of a Soul, I never could understand why this 'feeling', this 'sense', of self remained intact and untouched - now I've got a good hypothesis. You have dismantled a major blockage for me.:-) I have found all your recent posts of great assistance, especially those on the "ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa" and "Justice and Fairness" and "Right Livelihood and Abhidhamma" threads. There was nothing I disagreed with at all. Thank you Howard. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: 27971 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:05pm Subject: Re: I-Making (Re: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa/KKT) Hi Howard; No offence meant and I was wondering why do you (and also others) need a conceptual theory to explain a self whereby Buddha already in his numerous suttas stating the concept of self by five aggregates, the concept of self by the six senses and the concept of self by dependent origination. I feel we should ponder what is already been and repeatedly been explain by Buddha and not come out our own model bc it will not be beneficial and this could be our own wrong views. For your kind thoughts please kind regards Ken O H: > Because of our identifying with the function of volition, we sense and believe in a self that wills, thinks, sees, and hears (and secondarily tastes, smells, and has tactile experience). At least this is my theory." 27972 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hello Ken O, Sukin, and all, I understand your point. :-) It's a reminder of the Adze Handle sutta (a.k.a. Nava Sutta)- and that even though nothing seems to be developing, and frustration reigns, I need to remember that pa~n~na cannot be hurried. It'll wear through moha when it does, and not before. Though, didn't the Buddha also mean in this sutta that Enlightenment does not come about by wishful thinking, but by deliberate effort? I saw this poem on another list, which was a little perturbing: "Some get it, Some don't. Some will, Some won't. Those that do, do Those that don't, don't." ...John Alston As you say - (hopefully) it's a matter of time - unfortunately, I'm a product of a society that teaches "this you must have, that you cannot live without, get in first". Even the first meditation course I took was based on "In this very Life". :-) Surfing with Ken H? - that strange sound is his knees knocking together, and teeth chattering in fear - he probably regards my surfing abilities as w-a-y worse than having to share a wave with longboarders ... :-) So Ken O, I read your advice as "just keep on keeping on - study the Dhamma, discuss it with admirable friends , reflect on it, practice according to what has been studied, and have patience". :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Relax go for a yoga course :) or go sea surfing with Ken H > > Patience is the name of the game bc understanding depends on right > conditions maturing and cannot be hurried or forced. > > Perplex is also there so dont worry too much, bc hanging on doubt > only condition more doubt and mental restlessness. > > Mindful and discern - Understanding will come - is a matter of time > thats all, maybe not this life but at least we don't live our lives > in vain. Akusala may accumulate so does kusala :). > > It is not easy to know there is no doer in the doing, its not easy to > realise practise is right here and right now, no need to seek, no > need to find or do something. Its right here and right now, every > moment. It is just a matter of time this mystery will unravel in > ourselves. Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a > source of unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable support :). > Cheers > > > > Kind regards > Ken O 27973 From: Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/13/03 7:35:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > The mistake you and Howard have been > making, has been to equate existence of dhammas with > existence of self. This is an easy mistake but, please, > it's time to rectify it. > ====================== Hmm! We're making a mistake, but, thank Buddha (!), there is time to rectify it. You're a funny guy, Ken! ;-)) In any case, Ken, nobody is equating existence with self. We are equating *independent* existence with self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27974 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Christine C: If it is or if it isn't - I think karuna and metta should be shown "in action" to help bring ease and comfort. IMHO we can take analysing mind moments to extreme. If someone is suffering and they are in need of assistance, whether or not we decide our impulse to help stems from a mind moment of dosa at not being able to stand the sight of their pain, or one of selfless love and compassion for another who is suffering and the alleviation of suffering will still be a good thing. Allowing *some-one* to continue to suffer when one has the ability to relieve it, and ascerting that a flicker in the mind is the kusala compassion the Blessed One spoke about is not something I believe is true or can understand. (I know you didn't mean to suggest that, but I've received this impression before on this list - as if, because there is no-self, and there is really no-one who is suffering, there is no need really to feel for others or do anything - and it is their kamma anyway.) k: Your reactions to others suffering are conditions by your compassions and sympathy for others. To alleviate their suffering is also your cetasikas of compasssions which condition your cetana to alleviate their suffering. I do not think Abdhidhamma will advocate and allow other to suffer just bc *hey we are happening to study our mind momments or the suffering is not ours or there is no one that is suffering* and have the chance to sincerely help them and helping ourselves. The criteria to help others should be basing on whether it would lead to self inflictions or afflictions to others or to both. See the sutta below http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn061.html k: I think what Buddhism is saying that no one can partake anyone suffering as describe in this quote from this sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn082.html <> k: To me what you have acted out of the conditions from compassion, is indeed commendable. Keep up the good work and just remember, even though we cannot suffer or take over others pain, but at least we can help in our own means to comfort others, to lesser their bodily pains by medicine. To me that that is already divine enough. Kind regards Ken O we should be compassion and helpful if we are able in our own 27975 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sutta and Abhidhamma. Dear Ken O, Thanks. I also find it very important to show that the teachings are one, that what is taught in the Abh is also taught in the sutta. I have no time for web and prefer just books. But, I can never find the reference of links in books. What is the secret?? Sn 35, how can I find it?? Michael also gave me Sn 8 or somewhere. Nina. op 13-12-2003 08:03 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > Hi Nina > > Thanks. It is interesting to note that these commentaries could be > verify by study at the suttas. The other day, I went to make a small > survey in one small part of SN what Buddha taught in the suttas in > developing right understanding > > by impermanence > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html 27976 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies Hi Ken O, Yes, true. They are called subtle since they do not arise with the citta, like pariyutthana kilesa, but indeed, very powerful. Also ditthi is very strong. They all condition our life. I like your example. Nina. op 13-12-2003 08:09 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > This also confirmed my intuitive believe that latent tendecies are > strong and not subtle. Usually when I was mindful of an anger, when > I investigate it further, there was a strong notion of a self. This > means moha has also got to be very strong in inducing the notion of > self supported by our latent tendecies. 27977 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Tiika Vis 49, 53 Tiika Vis 49, 53 Tiika 49, relevant Vis passage: 49. The ear [sensitivity] is to be found inside the [feature of the] ear-hole with its accessories in the place that is shaped like a finger-stall and surrounded by fine brown hairs. It is assisted by the elements in the way aforesaid. Tiika 49: A"ngulivedhaka.m a"nguliiyaka.m. A fingerstall is a finger ring. (There is no Co to 50-53) Vis. 53: 53. Like snakes, crocodiles, birds, dogs, and jackals that gravitate to their own respective resorts, that is to say, ant-hills, water, space, villages, and charnal grounds, so the eye, etc., should be regarded as gravitating to their own respective resorts, that is to say, visible data, and so on (cf. DhsA. 314). Pali Vis 53: vammikaudakaakaasagaamasivathikasa"nkhaatasagocaraninnaa viya ca ahisusumaarapakkhiikukkurasi"ngaalaaruupaadisagocaraninnaava ete cakkhaadayoti da.t.thabbaa. Tiika 53: words: ajjhaasaya: hanging on, disposed to, desiring visama: uneven vammika: anthill chidda (n): hole abhirata: indulging in sappo: snake bila (n): hole pakkhii : bird gaama : village abhirata: indulging in kukkura: dog aamakasusaana (n) : charnel ground si"ngaalo: jackal papa~nca: obsession. Tiika text: Visamajjhaasayataaya cakkhu vammikachiddaabhiratasappo viya, The eye takes to what is uneven * like a snake that delights in a hollow of an antshill, bilajjhaasayataaya sota.m udakabilaabhiratakumbhiilo viya, the ear takes to a cave** like a crocodile that delights in a cave in the water, aakaasajjhaasayataaya ghaana.m aja.taakaasaabhiratapakkhii viya, the nose takes to space*** like a bird that delights in the sky, gaamajjhaasayataaya jivhaa gaamaabhiratakukkuro viya, the tongue takes to a ³village² **** like a dog that delights in a village, upaadinnakajjhaasayataaya kaayo aamakasusaanaabhiratasi"ngaalo viya the body takes to what is ³clung to² ***** like the jackal that delights in a charnal ground, passitabboti dassento ³vammi..pe.. da.t.thabbaa²ti aaha. and he taught that it should be seen thus with the words, ³It should be seen as the anthill, etc.² Visamajjhaasayataa ca cakkhussa visamajjhaasaya.m viya hotiiti katvaa vuttaa, And the desire for the uneven was stated just as if there is desire of the eye for what is uneven, cakkhumato vaa puggalassa ajjhaasayavasena cakkhu visamajjhaasaya.m da.t.thabba.m. or because of the inclination of a person who has eyes the eye should be seen as desire for the uneven. Esa nayo sesesupi. The remaining is according to the same method. Sabbopi ca yathaavutto papa~nco sotaadiisupi yathaaraha.m veditabbo. And all this should be seen, as stated, as an obsession, also with regard to the ear and so on, as is appropriate. English: The eye takes to what is uneven * like a snake that delights in a hollow of an antshill, the ear takes to a cave** like a crocodile that delights in a cave in the water, the nose takes to space*** like a bird that delights in the sky, the tongue takes to a ³village² **** like a dog that delights in a village, the body takes to what is ³clung to² ***** like the jackal that delights in a charnal ground, and he taught that it should be seen thus with the words, ³It should be seen as the anthill, etc.² And the desire for the uneven was stated just as if there is desire of the eye for what is uneven, or because of the inclination of a person who has eyes the eye should be seen as desire for the uneven. The remaining is according to the same method. And all this should be seen, as stated, as an obsession, also with regard to the ear and so on, as is appropriate. _________ * Expositor elaborates: A snake does not like swept places but wants a place of refuse, a lair of grass and leaves, an anthill. Thus, an uneven place. Evenso, . Thus there is a great variety of visible object, and seeing sees it all. ** The cave: All these similes are used to teach the conditions necessary for the functioning of the senses so that the sense-cognitions can occur. *** It is explained that cattle turn up their muzzles and breathe the wind, and no smell is experienced when breath is not inhaled. An example easy to understand. ****The tongue Even when the bhikkhu who enters the village in the morning In the village he will receive almsfood. A simple example that the water element (saliva) has a function for tasting sense. *****The bodysense is compared to a jackal who desires to be in a charnal ground where he can eat raw human flesh. Evenso the tactile sense desires matter grasped at (upadi.n.na), and takes tangible object dependent on the extension element (N:solidity or earth). ********** Nina. 27978 From: Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/13/03 11:08:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Howard: ... being constantly watchful > *with an eye* towards seeing the > tilakkhana in all dhammas. With regard to this last, I have recently "discovered" > that the Dhamma is to be seen right here and now in this psychophysical flow of > experience with a richness and potential that is *amazing*. Just seeing, > really seeing, how nothing at all (sights, for example) remain for even a moment > is a revelation! The world speeds away at a breathtaking rate, perhaps > infinite. How can one time the duration of what doesn't last at all? Other than the > original teachings of the Buddha, I find no books or papers these days that > are of any real help to me, but this lack is > more than balanced by the richness of support that reality itself provides. > -------------------------------------------------- > Christine: I am so happy for you Howard - your practice seems to be > going very well. Is there anymore you can say, or at least would > wish to say about how you "discovered" this? I realise it probably > is inexpressible. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: The method of discovery was rather mundane. I had actually mentioned this in a DSG post to Herman on the 2nd entitled "Seeing things as They Are." What I had written was the following: *************************************** Quite often, we can look with attentive choiceless awareness, and yet miss some important things. As a particular example, without having in mind to be aware of, to *note*, the impermanence of phenomena, though we may see it, yet it may not "register" as such. This is particularly so because the mind has long been in the mold to see permanence where there is impermanence! We tend not to notice change, at least far from adequately. I have found that there is a radical difference in seeing impermanence when I'm "looking" to see it from when I'm not. (And I mean actually seeing cessation and change rather than mentally imposing it.) I was experimenting with this yesterday. I was sitting in the Student Union cafeteria, looking around not at particular things, but at the general flux, the "change of scene," and I found myself *amazed* at the show unfolding, the constant and wide-ranging change. It was fascinating, reminding me of watching a film. I didn't hold onto specific details of "things," but just the characteristic of anicca, of not remaining, and the experience was not the usual one. So I think that keeping in mind what is supposed to be the case, and maintaining readiness to see it, maintaining a directed vigilence, often helps one in genuinely seeing it. ************************************** That experiment in directed observing of visual impermanence was a real revelation. I saw impermanence in the visual realm in a way that I had never seen it previously, and it enabled me to understand, even more importantly (for the long run), I think, than the particular insight into the truth of anicca, that the Dhamma is to be found right here and now, in the flow of experience. ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27979 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Grasping at mind states Herman --- Egberdina wrote: ... > When awareness arises that there is clinging or grasping, it is > possible to intend to not cling or grasp. That intention or > decision > has effect over a period longer than just the momentary arising of > that intention. Sooner or later that intention wears off, and there > is grasping or clinging again. At some point of time the awareness > of clinging arises again, and the process can repeat if so > intended. I think you perhaps see awareness as resulting in an immediate reduction in the level of clinging. In my view, that is not the nature or function of awareness (although it is one of the long-term benefits of developed understanding). The main distinguishing feature of awareness is that the object of the awareness is experienced directly as it truly is. Now that object may be any kind of dhamma, for example, seeing or visible-object, neither of which has anything to do with clinging or grasping. That is not to say that there is no clinging or grasping to the experienced object going on, but that they are totally different and discrete dhammas. One can be experienced without the other. From the description you give I am wondering if by awareness of clinging or grasping you mean a kind of focussed attention on clinging or grasping. To my reading of the suttas, that would not be the development of sati/panna as taught by the Buddha. I believe that any apparent lessening of clinging or grasping resulting from such a practice would not in fact be of lasting benefit. Just my take. > I was down at the cricket nets this arvo with three of my lads, and > I was batting very well. I was aware that I was batting with a very > deliberate non-attachment to anything that would come to mind. > Thoughts would come and go , nothing would stick. Of course, from > the moment the bowler started his run up there was intense > concentration on that only, which is very akin to clinging, and > also very deliberate (full of intention). > > I was bowling like crap. I became aware that I was thinking about > my > bowling action while bowling. From time to time only, I was able to > suspend thinking about my bowling action while bowling, and the > results were a lot better. But all up I still bowled like crap. Too > much thinking, and unable to stop it. > > My guess is that in the case of cricket, you just have to repeat > the > required actions so often, that the whole process can occur without > any conscious participation. No substitute for practice if you > wanna become any good. The adage that 'practice makes perfect' is fine for some things, but not for the development of understanding or other forms of kusala, and I don't believe you'll find it anywhere in the texts. This is because the 'practice' is bound to be akusala (by definition -- if it was kusala it wouldn't be 'practice' in the sense you have just used the term). Jon 27980 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Grasping at mind states Take 2 Herman --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Perhaps a more obvious means of not clinging to anything seen is to > close one's eyes. So perhaps we'd be closer to the goal if we got around with our eyes closed?? Seriously though, I know what you mean. In fact jhana suppresses the experience of objects through the sense-doors, in one who has seen how those experiences are a condition for the arising of kilesa. However, even the development of jhaana does nothing to eradicate the latent tendencies for akusala that are the root cause of the problem. These can only be eradicated by the development of vipassana to the stage of enlightenment. Jon 27981 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: I have a problem with viewing hardness as neither content of consciousness (the phenomenalist take) nor property of a physical object (the materialist/objectivist take). I don't know what such a "thing" is supposed to be. A kind of ghost hanging out in a rupa realm, I suppose. Jon: You say there is a distinction between the place of arising of a rupa that is the object of one's experience (conceivable -- no problem) and the place of arising of rupas that are not the object of one's experience (not conceivable -- problem). The Abhidhamma position on this is clear: there is no such distinction to be made. The arising of rupas, and hence their place of arising, is determined by conditions that do not include the consciousness by which they are experienced. (Those conditions are 4, namely, kamma, citta, temperature and nutriment.) So being experienced or not being experienced can make no difference as regards place of arising. If this is inconceivable to you, then the problem may lie in your conception of '[place of] arising' of a rupa. The way you explain it, it seems that you regard the arising of rupa to be conditioned by the experiencing consciousness. Is this the case? If not, what factors do you see as being relevant? Does your adherence to the phenomenalist view perhaps cloud the issue for you? Howard: ... I, quite frankly, think that the terminology of a "sight" is far better than that of "visible object," far less prone to a substantialist reading. As far as I'm concerned, sights are nothing if not seen. Jon: I don’t think it matters a whole lot which particular term is used, as long as it approximates the Pali original (rupaarammana). The important thing is to understand clearly the reality represented by the term. However, if you choose to use a term like 'sights', which does not approximate the Pali original (in my view), then it is hardly open to you to allege 'contradictory' language, or to use that wording as support for your argument that only experienced rupas arise ('sights are nothing if not seen')!! DSG readers are not that naive, Howard ;-)). Howard: Visual consciousnesses have no nature other than seeing, and sights have no nature other than being seen, and they are mutually dependent. Jon: I agree that visual consciousness has no nature other than seeing; hence it only arises with visible-rupa as object. As we know, it is in the nature of consciousness that it must have an object. However, you offer no reason why the converse -- visible-rupa has no nature other than being seen -- must necessarily follow, as you claim, with the corollary that accordingly rupas only arise if they are the object of experience. What exactly is the reasoning here (other than in terms of contradiction of language)? Howard: Unheard sound, except in physics theory (a conventional model) and commonsense (a conventional model), is unknown and unknowable, and is, to me, meaningless. Jon: Are you saying it is unknowable to everyone (even to a Buddha), or just that its unknowable to you at your present stage of understanding? If the latter, what significance should one place on this? Howard: I do not countenance the existence of sights, sounds, hardnesses, etc that occur except as objects of awareness in various mindstreams, because what is not experiential is exactly that - not experiential and in principle unknowable. Jon: Are you saying that one should never *countenance* (i.e., *allow for the possibility of*) the existence of something that is not directly and immediately knowable? This sounds rather like an 'If I can't know it, it can't be so' approach. Should we not allow for the possibility of something that is not directly and immediately knowable, if it comes on good authority? I wouldn't see that as being contrary to the teachings. Jon 27982 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Michael You make a good point (and no, it's not a trivial one) when you say, if I may paraphrase, that if someone really believes something that is not in accordance with things as they really are, his/her thinking process will be shaped by that understanding, and his/her understanding will also be wrong. Samma ditthi is indeed the forerunner of the whole path. I believe the area being discussed in this thread is of fundamental importance, and I would like to have a go at stating what I understand the teachings to be saying. To my understanding, the term 'paramattha dhamma' (ultimate reality) is simply another term for all sankhata (conditioned) dhammas and nibbana, chosen to give emphasis to a particular aspect of these dhammas. Dhammas are to be regarded as 'ultimate' in the sense that they are absolute or fundamental, that is, not capable of reduction into further parts or dhammas, at least as far as their being the object of sati/panna is concerned. The development of the path is the development of understanding of these dhammas, and these dhammas only. The term 'sabhava' (with essence) I see as meaning 'exhibiting distinctive characteristic'. According to the teachings, (a) each kind of dhamma (seeing consciousness, visible-object, feeling, lobha, etc) exhibits a distinctive characteristic that is not shared by any other kind of conditioned dhamma, and (b) every instance of the same kind of dhamma exhibits the same distinctive characteristic that is peculiar to that kind of conditioned dhamma. Thus it is 'essence' in the sense that it is the unique feature of every instance of that particular kind of dhamma. (Concepts, on the other hand, do not exhibit a distinctive characteristic.) This may be a little different from your own reading of these 2 terms. Is that reading based on a study of the Theravada texts? Jon --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Nina, ... > Michael: > I am far from reading all the suttas but I have yet to find a > reference to > the five aggregates as paramatha/sabhava. And this is how they are > regarded > in the commentaries of the Abhidhamma. It may seem a trivial point > but in > fact if someone really believes that there is something that trully > exists, > his/her thinking process will be shaped by that understanding. And > if that > key assumption turns out to be wrong, his/her understanding will > also be > wrong. And as we all know Samma dithi is the forerunner of the > whole path. > > Metta > Michael 27983 From: Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi again, Ken - Just a couple additional comments and clarifications with regard to the following that I wrote: > Howard: > Here it is pointing out the sense of 'essence' that is "distinguishing > characteristic". It is a misleading usage of 'essence' in my opinion, > dangerous because of the possibility of confusing it with the atta sense of > 'essence'. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I think about this usage, while still thinking that there is considerable danger in using the term 'essence' to mean "distinguishing characteristic," because of conflating that meaning with the other meaning of "core/own being/own nature/self," it is a fact that the word 'essence' has "distinguishing characteristic" as a common meaning in English. In fact, one often speaks of "distilling the essence" of something, literally or figuratively, and 'essence' there means what is most peculiar to the thing, i.e., its distinguishing characteristic. The main problem with the English term 'essence', which rather faithfully translates 'sabhava', I think, is its literal meaning of "own being" (or "own nature"), and, as I pointed out before, the problematical word there is 'own' (or 'sa' in Pali), and not 'being' or 'nature'. In ordinary language, which incorporates all our defilements and reified ways of thinking, this is natural terminology, but it is not good for expressing the Dhamma. ----------------------------------------------------- To say that the essence of a thing *is* that thing is to trivialize the term > > 'essence'. The application of essence to conventional objects, while vague, > makes some sense. The application of it to paramattha dhammas is an exercise > in > vacuity, or even worse. It amounts to nothing more than the assertion of the > > tautology "A is A". But "A is A" is already a hazard - in fact, A is *not* > just A. In fact, A is *nothing* in and of itself, but is completely > dependent > upon the coming together of other equally empty conditions. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: In the foregoing, I made two additional points. One of these is that conventional objects such as trees, cars, cats, and people are mental groupings of conditions which typically interact in ways that make the group appear to function as a single entity, and to point out a primary condition or property (or a small collection of them) of that "entity" that is central to it is, in ordinary parlance, to point out its "essence." Often, it is up for grabs as to what that "essence" should be, but the idea makes some sense. However, this makes no sense in the case of a paramattha dhamma, because that is a single, directly experienced (or experiencing) condition, not a mental collection of conditions. Hardness is hardness. That's all there is to say. What, in fact, makes it a paramattha dhamma is that it is not construct composed of simpler conditions. (Caveat: It *is*, of course, dependent for its very existence on other conditions.) The other point I made above, related to this one, is that to say that the essence of something, in particular, a paramattha dhamma, is the "thing" itself, is problematical. In one way, it is a triviality that says nothing of any import. In another way, it is worse than that, because it suggests the independence of that dhamma, a very bad suggestion! ========================= I hope the foregoing clarifies my points a bit, Ken. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27984 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Jon, Jon: To my understanding, the term 'paramattha dhamma' (ultimate reality) is simply another term for all sankhata (conditioned) dhammas and nibbana, chosen to give emphasis to a particular aspect of these dhammas. Dhammas are to be regarded as 'ultimate' in the sense that they are absolute or fundamental, that is, not capable of reduction into further parts or dhammas, at least as far as their being the object of sati/panna is concerned. The development of the path is the development of understanding of these dhammas, and these dhammas only. Michael: If your interpretation is correct then I think the Pali commentators were really dumb in using the combination paramatha/sabhava to qualify dhammas. They certainly knew other ways of describing dhammas to avoid falling into some form of reification. But I don’t think you are correct. In my view the Pali commentators really regarded dhammas as paramatha/sabhava and the reason I believe that is the strong reaction against those ideas that was engendered by the early Mahayana commentators, in particular Nagarjuna. And that reaction was so strong that reading Nagarjuna’s writings today it is very easy to interpret them as nihilistic. But taken in context one can understand why he wrote them like that. One should also keep in mind the interpretations of modern Theravada commentators which clearly read paramatha/sabhava as truly existent, within a context of substantiality. I also don’t agree with your argument that dhammas are not capable of further reduction but, would rather argue that they are capable of further reduction, but it is not necessary to do so in order to see the nature of things as they are, i.e., viewing the 3 characteristics of the aggregates with proper insight is enough for liberation, one does not have to dwell deeper. But that doesn’t mean this is not possible. I would rather say that the development of the path is the understanding of these dhammas because that is the most practical, not that it is the only possibility. Jon: The term 'sabhava' (with essence) I see as meaning 'exhibiting distinctive characteristic'. According to the teachings, (a) each kind of dhamma (seeing consciousness, visible-object, feeling, lobha, etc) exhibits a distinctive characteristic that is not shared by any other kind of conditioned dhamma, and (b) every instance of the same kind of dhamma exhibits the same distinctive characteristic that is peculiar to that kind of conditioned dhamma. Thus it is 'essence' in the sense that it is the unique feature of every instance of that particular kind of dhamma.. Michael: Again, if the commentators used ‘essence’ without the intention of meaning ‘essence’ then simply they should not have used it. I would prefer to say that features are due to the regularity of the dhamma. It is not something intrinsic to the dhamma but when that dhamma arises with its characteristics, both due to causes and conditions, the feature of regularity makes that dhamma have that characteristic. And because of regularity we are mistaken to take that characteristic as unique, being part of the essence of that dhamma. Metta Michael 27985 From: Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Jon - Most of your post is such that any reply of mine would consist only of repeating things I have said before, which would be of little benefit to anyone. I will reply to one part of what you write, because I think I need to clarify my position with regard to that. In a message dated 12/14/03 7:55:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Jon: > Are you saying that one should never *countenance* (i.e., *allow for > the possibility of*) the existence of something that is not directly > and immediately knowable? This sounds rather like an 'If I can't > know it, it can't be so' approach. Should we not allow for the > possibility of something that is not directly and immediately > knowable, if it comes on good authority? I wouldn't see that as > being contrary to the teachings. > ============================= With regard to the question <>, my answer is no, I'm not saying that. There is no requirement for the existence of something that it be directly and immediately knowable. What I do consider to be a *pragmatic* requirement is that it be possible, in principle, to be directly known and not merely inferred. Now, what is directly known is an arammana. Whatever is not an arammana, if such exists, is not knowable, but merely inferable. A "thing" underlying (somewhere) experienced hardness *may* exist, but that existence is not knowable - it is merely inferable if one feels the need to infer it. I don't feel that need. I go along with the Buddha when he said, to paraphrase, "In the seen let there be just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the sensed just the sensed, and in the cognized just the cognized." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27986 From: Larry Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:20am Subject: Re: Tiika Vis 49, 53 Hi Nina, Look what was in today's paper. Larry ------------------ Hearing red For people with synthesthesia, sound has color and music has shape By Lisa Marshall, Camera Staff Writer December 14, 2003 To Massachusetts photographer Marcia Smilack, the image of light reflecting on water makes an almost deafening musical crescendo. To New York painter Carol Steen, pain appears orange. To Boulder poet Clara Burns, a year is an exaggerated oval, a "bent race track," and each month is a colored rectangle within it. Confused? While these may sound like mere metaphors hatched in the fertile imaginations of artists, they are in fact true sensory experiences, says psychologist Peter Grossenbacher, head of the Consciousness Laboratory at Naropa University and one of the nation's leading experts in synesthesia. The little-known neurological trait — only recently acknowledged as real in the scientific community — causes as many as 1 in 300 people to have their perceptual wires crossed, leading them to respond to outside stimuli with one sense instead of or in addition to the expected one. Some so-called "synesthetes" literally see sounds and hear colors. Others taste shapes and feel images. Many, like Burns, perceive time as having shape and numbers and letters as having their own specific colors. "For them, the experience is so real. A scent may be smelled and heard. It has its own loudness, pitch and timbre. Or the sound of an electric guitar may induce one specific color," says Grossenbacher, who has a Ph.D. and spent five years studying synesthesia at the National Institutes of Mental Health before coming to Boulder three years ago. While reports of "colored hearing" and "colored letters" date back to the early 1800s, synesthesia was long written off as the product of artistic fancy, psychedelic drugs or madness. But in the past decade, thanks to brain scan technology that now allows scientists to spy on the brain as it experiences the senses, researchers have begun to acknowledge that the condition may be real and investigate what causes it. Perhaps, some researchers say, the brains of synesthetes are structurally different, with portions of the brain that control color signals and hearing, for instance, so close together that signals intended for one area hit both. Or perhaps, as Grossenbacher thinks, people have the same basic neurological wiring, but in most of us, hormones keep us from experiencing those extra sensory perceptions so we don't get confused. "There are people who never experience synesthesia until they take LSD," he notes. Because people don't suddenly grow new anatomical connections in their brains when they take drugs, he's convinced we all have the same neurological connections, but for some reason synesthetes use theirs more fully. The trait is worth studying, researchers say, because it may offer insight into why some people are naturally more artistically inclined or more easily overstimulated than others. And perhaps, some theorize, those who lose one sense due to a brain injury may be able to compensate through synesthesia. For those who have it and never knew it had a name, the brewing interest has been a blessing because it has brought them together. 27987 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Dear Rob M, op 13-12-2003 11:13 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Is the "law of kamma" the same as "kamma condition" in the Patthana? N: They are different aspects dealt with in different contexts. Kamma produces result when it is the right time, and also other factors, place where on lives, time, etc. play their part. But the kamma once committed can even for arahats (Moggallana, Angulimala) rpoduce result. Not even a Buddha can prevent this. Kamma nyaama. As to kamma-condition, we have to differentiate conascent kamma, cetanaa arising with each citta (conditioning the accompanying dhammas), and naa.nakkha.nika kamma-paccaya, kamma working from a different time (the past). R: ... It is therefore not correct to say that incidents > that happen to you arise because of kamma condition. Incidents are > not mental states. Incidents that happen to you arise because of a > complex set of conditions, but it would seem that it is not > appropriate to talk of kamma when discussing incidents. > > People do talk of incidents happening "because of kamma". Is this > incorrect? N: I find Sarah's expression that a situation can be a shorthand for dhammas helpful. There were many posts about this. Jon remarked that praise and blame etc. are used in the Tipitaka to denote results of kamma. When we analyse different moments it is more complex of course. Nina. > Metta, > Rob M :-) 27988 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Larry, op 14-12-2003 01:29 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > L: I think the eye organ is like a blue lotus petal but the eye sense is > not bigger than a louse's head. If you had looked at that photo of a > louse head I sent you you would know it is just a dot. There must be > many (?) of these dots of eye sense in the eye, presumably each one an > eye base. N: The Tiika explained: in the middle of the black circle. This is not a medical explanation. It tells us something about rupa-dhamma. Only one eyesense in one eye. It is part of the eyedecad, so tiny, nobody can see it or touch it. Only one eyesense at a time is base for seeing, and, it falls away immediately, though not as quickly as citta. Nobody can take hold of it. That is what the Co wants to explain. Without essence! Beyond control, having no owner. L: I liked your treatment of the senses as pointing toward revulsion with > the body. N: Now look at the contrasts in Dispeller of Delusion I, Classification of the Truths, Origination, § 528, under : <...Beings in the world who are attached to the eye by fondness and who are well-favoured [as to their eyes], according as they grasp the sign (reflecion) in a mirror and so on, imagine their own eye to be like a jewelled window opened in the golden divine palace of the pure fivefold [colour-] sensitivity. They imagine the ear like a silver tube or like a chain string. They imagine the nose, which has got the name 'long nose'... like a sheath of green palmyra plaited and placed [there]... They imagine the tongue like a sheetof red wool, like a soft, wet, sweet candy. They imagine the body like a sala tree sapling and like a golden arched gateway. ...> This shows us our obsession, papa~nca. We are utterly misled. We have to go deeper into each para of the Vis. text to find out what the Commentator wants to explain. We should listen to the Commentaries, so that we do not miss the point. A problem is the translation: some of the translated passages are so difficult to read. But I know for myself how difficult it is to translate a text. We want to be faithful to the text, but our language becomes stilted. I make many footnotes to give additional explanations. The translation of Visuddhimagga and other texts was an immmense undertaking of different translators. L: This made me wonder if it says anywhere in scripture or > commentary that it is a disadvantage to be blind or deaf, and if so, > why? N: People born with ahetuka (rootless) kusala vipakacitta are handicapped from the first moment of life, some of the senses may be defective. In the suttas we also find references to results of weak kusala kamma. When you can see, you can read the texts. When you can hear, you can listen to Dhamma discussions, even on tape. Nina. 27989 From: Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tiika Vis 49, 53 Hi, Larry (and Nina, and all) - In a message dated 12/14/03 2:24:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Look what was in today's paper. > > Larry > ------------------ > Hearing red > For people with synthesthesia, sound has color and music has shape > ======================== This is *very* interesting. Now ... what do you make of it vis-a-vis Abhidhamma? My first thought with regard to this is that the physical sense organ, a conventional object, is not the sense door. Whatever is sensed as sight has entered the "eye door", and whatever is sensed as sound has entered the "ear door". The sense doorways are not material objects in the conventional sense (though classified as rupas), but are better thought of as channels or fields or loci of experiences of a certain sort. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27990 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Noticeable difference? Dear All, For those of us studying the Dhamma, reflecting on what we have learned, associating with admirable friends and diligently practising according to Dhamma - should all this conscientious effort and application make a noticeable difference (sounds like a face cream :-)) to our characters and personalities? I mean, should other people be able to see 'good' qualities and changes in us, and thereby be attracted to the Dhamma. "I want what she's having" (sounds like an hamburger advert. :-)). Apart from keeping the Precepts, should Dhamma study and practice cause us to be kinder, more understanding of others, less likely to hurt others by deed or by verbal aggression in the form of sarcasm or a 'joke'? The stimulus for this was my thinking over the Christian saying 'By their fruits ye shall know them". What would the noticeable 'fruits' be of a ardent Disciple of the Blessed One? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27991 From: M. Nease Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 0:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Sarah, By this do you mean that yoniso manasikaara arises only with regard to paramattha dhammas (i.e. never with regard to concepts)? Seems to me that it can arise with either but not sure. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 6:00 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) CORRECTION --- Sarah wrote: > Sometimes, it's just used for any wise reflection. E.g, Vism 1, 85: > > "'Reflecting wisely,he uses the robe pnly for protection from the > cold...."- .... Besides the typo in 'only', reflecting a little more wisely I think this was an example of unwise reflection on my part;-( Yoniso for wisely, but not not manasikaara.I think reflection here is pa.tisankhaa, looking at the back of Vism. I don't think yoniso manasikaara is ever used in this kind of context. it didn't sound write when I wrote it. Apologies, Sarah ====== 27992 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:09pm Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 09 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Life after life is going on without never ever ending. This chain of lives, that is life after life, is called Samsara or rotating wheel of life. To get through the Samsara, one has to practise Mahasatipatthana. Mahasatipatthana is a special mindfulness or special practice of mindfulness. Maha means great, Sati means mindfulness, and Patthana means putting or placing. Mahasatipatthana means great placing or putting of mindfulness on object. There are 4 groups where mindfulness can be placed on. The first is our body. The second is our feelings. The third is our mind. The fourth is our mental objects. This is for simple remembrance of 4 Mahasatipatthana. In order, they are called in Pali as 1. Kayanupassana Satipatthana Kaya means body that is our physical body. Anupassana is Anu+ Passana. Anu means in detail. Passana means contemplation,look into, examine, inspect, scrutinize. Kayanupassana means detail examination of our physical body. Satipatthana means placing of mindfulness. So it is placing of mindfulness on our physical body. 2. Vedananupassana Satipatthana Vedana means feeling. The same meaning applies as above. 3. Cittanupassana Satipatthana Placing of mindfulness on mind that is wherever the mind goes, mindfulness must remember that the mind goes there. 4. Dhammanupassana Satipatthana Placing of mindfulness on Dhamma or mind-objects. Breathing meditation or Anapanassati is a part of Kayanupassana Satipatthana. It is possibly enough to get through the Samsara if there are enough perfections ( Parami ). But in most people, it is hard to get concentration and hard to arise wisdom on pure breathing meditation. Because it is a hard job to do. The Dhamma practitioner has sat for an hour for his early morning sitting meditation. Then he decides to do walking meditation. Before he stands up, he was sitting. he knows that he is sitting or simply he knows sitting. He may say aloud in his mind ' sitting, sitting, sitting... '. At the same time of sitting, he notices that there is touching to the floor. He may say in his mind ' touching, touching, touching..'. Or simply ' touch, touch, touch..'. After he decided to stand up, he notices that he wants to stand up. ' wanna stand up, wanna stand up..' Then he notices that he wants to stretch his arms, want to stretch his legs and so on. He knows all his wishes to change his position. He knows changings and he is conscious through out all changes. Now he is standing. He knows that his feet touch the floor. '' Touch the floor, touch the floor,..'' He knows he wants to open his eyes. Then consciously opens. Then he knows that he sees something in front of him. As he stands, he knows that he stands. Then he walks. And he knows that he walks. He is conscious through out all his movements. He knows when he is sitting. He knows when he is standing. And he knows when he is walking. He also knows when he is in bed that he is lying. He knows all the positions of his physical body through out the whole day. May all beings be mindful on themselves and their environments and get through the Samsara With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27993 From: jangchup777 Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:53pm Subject: tanha and intention TANHA There is something that I find confusing. Often when I have a desire in the mind, I think that it's evil and that I must destroy it and annihilate it. But then I listened to a Dhamma talk that I downloaded from the internet my Ajahn Sumedho and he talked about "Vibhava tanha." You are probably familiar with the three types of craving: Kama tanha, Bhava tanha, and Vibhava tanha, Sensual craving, craving for becoming, and craving for non-becoming. He says that since we are beings living in the sense-desire realm that sensual desire is okay and natural and that wanting to annihilate it is wrong view, and it is a form of Vibhava tanha. Instead I think he talked about encompassing the desires in awareness and not being attached to them. So I'm getting two different views here. One is that craving must fade away completely without remainder, and the second is that craving is still there but I'm detached from it. I don't know which is right. Does anyone? Actually, Bhante Gunaratana told me in an interview that I cannot force these desires out of me, but they must fade away naaaaturally (I think by seeing impermanence in vipassana practice ??). And, in another talk I downloaded the nun explained the meaning of vibhava tanha as wanting to be done with rebirth. So, I'm confused, does vibhava tanha mean wanting wanting to be done with rebirth or does it mean wanting to annhiliate any little phenomenon in my everyday life? Also, I don't really understand the difference between kama tanha and bhava tanha, because if one imagines some pleasant existence they favor, are they not imagining a conglomeration of sensory experiences? So, to me, kama tanha seems the same as bhava tanha. How do others see this? INTENTION Furthermore, there is something else I've been wondering about and would like to ask others about it. In dependent origination if ignornace ceases then sankharas cease. And here, in this context, sankharas mean bodily, verbal, and mental "fabrications". (SN XII.2) As I understand it, "fabrication" is volition or intention. Is this correct? But if these intentions cease it seems to me that a person would be frozen still, completely silent, and not thinking at all! How would they even determine to get up and goto the bathroom? But this is not the case because the Buddha was very active after his enlightenment. How did he act without any intentions? And Samyutta Nikaya XII.38 seems to support this view that intentions cease when it says "when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], .... there is no future birth..." and also the line of victory: "there is nothing left to do..." Also, when sankaras are spoken of as an aggregate of clinging, are these the same sankharas that are referred to in dependent origination? It seems that I cannot discern the difference between an intention and a desire in my own mind. A sankhara and tanha. Say a man desires to relieve himself at the toilet. Is this a desire? An intention? Is it called tanha because we favor the empty- bladder feeling and oppose the have-to-go feeling? Is it rightly called a bodily sankhara? Now if this person is prevented from using the toilet, he might relieve himself outside and be undisturbed. But another man might be angry and displeased. And this is because he is clinging to that intention to use the toilet, right? Is that what it means to not cling to sankharas? To be able to abandon an intention without any care? This is my first posting after my introduction posting. I have written alot. I hope that I did not write to much. Looking forward to any responses, From Ben 27994 From: jangchup777 Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 2:03pm Subject: Re: Noticeable difference? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > What would the noticeable 'fruits' > be of a ardent Disciple of the Blessed One? > I believe that they would never get angry. From Ben 27995 From: Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Nina, You wrote: "The Tiika explained: in the middle of the black circle. This is not a medical explanation. It tells us something about rupa-dhamma. Only one eyesense in one eye. It is part of the eyedecad, so tiny, nobody can see it or touch it. Only one eyesense at a time is base for seeing, and, it falls away immediately, though not as quickly as citta. Nobody can take hold of it. That is what the Co wants to explain. Without essence! Beyond control, having no owner." L: I looked into eye anatomy on the web and I think what is being talked about is the end cap of the optic nerve. It looks like this is about the size of a louse's head. At first I thought "eye sense" was the rods and cones because it pervaded the 7 layers of the eye but there are millions of rods and cones so I don't think these could be seen without a microscope. Maybe "pervades" just means the eye sense "sees through" the seven layers. The 7 layers could be 7 parts of the eye depending on how you count them (cornea, pupil, lense, macula etc.). The impermanence of it doesn't mean much to me. It is like the impermanence of all rupas, too fast to be noticed. I think it is better to consider impermanence in experiential time. Larry 27996 From: Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tiika Vis 49, 53 Hi Howard, I think I am leaning toward understanding sense doors as nerve ends. Obviously science hasn't completely figured this out and I'm sure it isn't necessary to understand everything about it to penetrate desire. One thing that seems to happen is that sense input is somehow converted into electricity and then transmitted to the brain where it somehow creates a semblance of the world. The rupa that is supposedly "out there" is different from the rupa that consciousness experiences. This is obvious in something like color blindness. Larry --------------------- Howard: "This is *very* interesting. Now ... what do you make of it vis-a-vis Abhidhamma? My first thought with regard to this is that the physical sense organ, a conventional object, is not the sense door. Whatever is sensed as sight has entered the "eye door", and whatever is sensed as sound has entered the "ear door". The sense doorways are not material objects in the conventional sense (though classified as rupas), but are better thought of as channels or fields or loci of experiences of a certain sort. 27997 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Hi Ben, This is just a quick reply for now. I hope you receive others. At the end of your post, you wrote: ..... > This is my first posting after my introduction posting. I have > written a lot. I hope that I did not write to much. Looking forward > to any responses, .... All your Qs are excellent and certainly not too much. I’m most impressed by your careful considerations. Just the first part on tanha for now: --- jangchup777 wrote: > TANHA > > There is something that I find confusing. Often when I have a desire > in the mind, I think that it's evil and that I must destroy it and > annihilate it. .... No, no, no;-) Better to develop understanding and detachment than an idea of self which can and should ‘destroy it and annihilate it’. This isn’t a Terminator movie, though it may seem like that;-). ..... > But then I listened to a Dhamma talk that I downloaded from the > internet my Ajahn Sumedho and he talked about "Vibhava tanha." You > are probably familiar with the three types of craving: Kama tanha, > Bhava tanha, and Vibhava tanha, Sensual craving, craving for > becoming, and craving for non-becoming. He says that since we are > beings living in the sense-desire realm that sensual desire is okay > and natural and that wanting to annihilate it is wrong view, and it > is a form of Vibhava tanha. Instead I think he talked about > encompassing the desires in awareness and not being attached to them. ..... I agree with A.Sumedho that desire is natural and that it is a kind of wrong view to think we can annihilate it. I also agree that it indicates strong attachment when one is desperate to ‘destroy and annihilate’. Yes, awarenss, understanding and detachment of realities. By the time one is into ‘annihilate’ mode, the desire has already fallen away in any case;-) .... > So I'm getting two different views here. One is that craving must > fade away completely without remainder, and the second is that > craving is still there but I'm detached from it. I don't know which > is right. Does anyone? .... One step at a time. The way that craving will eventually fade away completely is by developing wisdom with detachment. Such wisdom and detachment always has to begin at the present moment with what is real, not what one hears will be real at the end of the Path. .... > Actually, Bhante Gunaratana told me in an interview that I cannot > force these desires out of me, but they must fade away naaaaturally > (I think by seeing impermanence in vipassana practice ??). .... Yes, by understanding. I would say by understanding namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena) right now, so that there will be greater understanding and insight (vipassana), including the understanding of impermanence of these namas and rupas in due course. .... > And, in another talk I downloaded the nun explained the meaning of > vibhava tanha as wanting to be done with rebirth. So, I'm confused, > does vibhava tanha mean wanting wanting to be done with rebirth or > does it mean wanting to annhiliate any little phenomenon in my > everyday life? .... I understand the nun to be correct and that vibhava means ‘ceasing to become’ in the sense of extinction at death. So vibhava tanha is craving for annihilation as opposed to bhava tanha which is craving for becoming or continued existence. (Of course vibhava should not be confused with the cessation of nibbana.) Wishing to annihilate any little phenomenon would I think be kama tanha or sensuous craving, wishing for other mental states and aversion for that which has arisen. DN15, Mahanidana Sutta: ‘ “Clinging conditions becoming.”.....If there were absolutely no clinging: sensuous clinging, clinging to views,to rite and ritual, to personality belief..., could becoming appear? ‘ “Craving conditions clinging.” ......If there were absolutely no craving: for sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles,mind-objects...., could clinging appear? ‘ ..... > Also, I don't really understand the difference between kama tanha and > bhava tanha, because if one imagines some pleasant existence they > favor, are they not imagining a conglomeration of sensory > experiences? So, to me, kama tanha seems the same as bhava tanha. > How do others see this? .... Good questions. I’ll look forward to other responses. An anagami has no more kama tanha or attachment to sensory experiences, but still, there is a subtle clinging to becoming to continued existence, to ‘being’. Of course, in the anagami’s case it is without any idea of wrong view. In our case there can be kama or bhava tanha with or without wrong view of self. You might like to look at this entry on tanha: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/tanhaa.htm “Of craving for existence (bhava-tanhá ) it is said (A.X.62): "No first beginning of the craving for existence can be perceived, o monks, before which it was not and after which it came to be. But it can he perceived that craving for existence has its specific condition. I say, o monks, that also craving for existence has its condition that feeds it (sáharam) and is not without it. And what is it? 'Ignorance', one has to reply." - Craving for existence and ignorance are called "the outstanding causes that lead to happy and unhappy destinies (courses of existence)" (s. Vis.M. XVII, 36-42).” Thank you again for your helpful Qs. Metta, Sarah ==== 27998 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Mike, Very glad to see you around keeping an eye on what I write;-) ;-) --- "M. Nease" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > By this do you mean that yoniso manasikaara arises only with regard to > paramattha dhammas (i.e. never with regard to concepts)? Seems to me > that it can arise with either but not sure. .... Sorry for the confusion. No, I didn't mean that (i.e only arises with regard to paramattha dhammas) and in my first post on the topic I said, I think, that when the javana cittas are sobhana or wholesome,the manasikaara is yoniso and when they are akusala, the manasikaara is ayoniso. So this would apply to all moments of dana, sila and samatha bhavana as well as to satipatthana. Having said that, however, it seemed to me on a quick look that most examples of the use of yoniso manasikaara in the texts, especially in the suttas, are referring to satipatthana as in the other examples I gave. In the following example here, at first I thought 'reflecting wisely' was a translation of yoniso manasikaara, but afterwards it occurred to me that it would be an unusual example of usage and so I checked and found yoniso was used but pa.tisankhaa rather than manasikaara. > > "'Reflecting wisely,he uses the robe only for protection from the > > cold...."- Yoniso for wisely, > but > not not manasikaara.I think reflection here is pa.tisankhaa, looking > at > the back of Vism. I don't think yoniso manasikaara is ever used in > this > kind of context. it didn't sound write when I wrote it. .... I really haven't made much of a study of this. I remember you were interested in this subject before, Mike and would be grateful for any additional comments you could make or any helpful references you have. Thx for this request for clarification too. Metta, Sarah ======== 27999 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:56pm Subject: Emptiness and so on..... was Re: Buddhaghosa etc Hi Michael, Larry, Sukin & All. > Larry: > Here is a link for several Nagarjunian views. Read the first two > sections at least: http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol3/madhyamaka.html > Michael: > Thanks for the excelent link. Reading only the first two sections you will > miss the best. Go through the end. The author's argument of 'Emptiness as an > Epistemological Doctrine' brought to my mind the Madhupindika Sutta - MN18. ..... I think the following points should be appreciated by those reading the Tipitaka (including Abhidhamma) and ancient Pali commentaries, especially if they are familiar with Nagarjuna and his writings: 1. In the Theravada commentaries and Abhidhamma, sabhava does not refer to self or ‘independent or autonomous being’.* It refers to a particular or differentiating characteristic or nature of a reality. Read in context, this is apparent. Howard gave these quotes from the Visuddhimagga on su~n~nattaa and anattaa: H:> (1) In XXI, 56, there is the following: Having discerned voidness in the six modes in this way , he discerns it again in eight modes, that is to say: 'Materiality has no core, is coreless, without core, as far as concerns (i) any core of permanence, or (ii) core of lastingness, or (iii) core of pleasure, or (iv)core of self, or as far as concerns (v) what is permanent, or (vi) what is lasting,or (vii) what is eternal, or (viii) what is not subject to change. Just as a reed has no core, is coreless, without core; just as a castor-oil plant, an udumbara (fig) tree, a setavaccha tree, a palibhaddaka tree, a lump of froth, a bubble on water, a mirage, a plantain trunk, a conjuring trick, has no core is coreless, without core, so too materiality etc.' (2) In XI, 104, there is the following, with the capitalization for emphasis being mine: ... They are states (dhamma) owing to bearing (dharana) for the length of the moment appropriate to them. They are impermanent in the sense of [liability to] destruction; they are painful in the sense of [causing] terror; THEY ARE NOT SELF IN THE SENSE OF HAVING NO CORE [OF PERMANENCE AND SO ON]. ... (Howard’s caps). ***** 2. There is a clear distinction between concepts (pannatti) and realities (paramattha dhammas). In the Tipitaka, paramattha dhammas which can be directly known and which have characteristics are clearly differentiated from pannatti (concepts). Indeed this is the ‘essence’ of the Teachings,without which a path would not be possible.* ***** 3. The Buddha’s teachings are not about transforming ‘unskilful mental events into skilful mental events’. Many Theravada teachers say this, but it is contradictory to what we read in the Tipitaka. Either attachment arises or it doesn’t. Attachment doesn’t change to detachment.For example: MN18 (~Na.namoli/Bodhi transl)**: “ Dependent on the eye and forms,eye-consciousness arises.....contact...feeling......perceives. What one perceives,that one thinks about. What one thinks about,that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man with respect to past,future,and present forms cognizable through the eye.” <...> “’Bhikkhus, as to the source through which perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man: if nothing is found there to delight in, welcome, and hold to, this is the end of the underlying tendency to lust,of the underlying tendency to aversion,... to views.....to doubt.......to conceit....to desire of being..... to ignorance.....’ “ ***** 4. An understanding of conditions is very important. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) are dependent on other factors. MN 18: “Dependent on the eye and forms,eye-consciousness arises............contact....feeling. What one feels, that one percieves.....’ If we talk about trees and rocks now, they are concepts. However, the rupas which make up the tree or rocks depend on temperature and not the mind to rise and fall and so exist momentarily. This is regardless of whether the rupas are directly experienced at any given time. Concepts do not arise and fall. In suttas, such as SN 22.95, Kaccayanagotta Sutta, when the imagery of foam, bubbles, mirages, a plantain trunk and illusions are used, it is referring to the nature of realities, to the khandhas as empty of self, insubstantial and fleeting. These are usually grasped at and taken for being substantial and lasting. The imagery is not referring to concepts in the mind. ***** 5. Conditioned dhammas or realities do originate. ‘Dependently originating entities’ are not a ’ mental creation’. Concepts, on the other hand, are not conditioned and there is no suggestion of them originating or being referred to in suttas on Dependent Origination. That which is conceived does not exist and does not originate. MN 18: “ ‘When there is the eye, a form,and eye-consciousness, it is possible to point out the manifestation of contact........feeling...perception....thinking. When there is the manifestation of thinking, it is possible to point out the manifestation of being beset by perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation.” The eye, form,consciousness, contact, feeling,perception and thinking do not have ‘merely conceptual existence.’ The objects of thinking -- the proliferations -- have ‘merely conceptual existence’, but are not dependently orginating. ***** 6. The ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas) are cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. Nibbana is the only reality which does not depend on causes. It can also be said to have sabhava or its particular features. But it is also anatta with no ‘true being’ or self of any kind relating to it.* Udaana Comy, 392 (Masefield transl): “ ‘Wherein there is neither earth....nor both un and moon’, whereby there is elucidated the fact that that which is the unconditioned element, which has as its own nature (sabhava) that which is the antithesis of all conditioned things,such as earth and so forth.....” Furthermore, it should be stressed that nibbana, “the ultra-profound, extremely hard to see, abstruse and subtle.....”, is not samsara or insight in any aspect. It is the unconditioned dhamma directly realised by supramundane consciousness accompanied by the supramundane mental factors including samma ditthi (right understanding). By contrast, the conventional nature of things can only ever be the object of thinking, not of insight. ***** 7. As we know, in the Theravada teachings, bhavanga cittas (life continuum consciousness) arise and fall between sense and mind door processes. These are not a substratum and there is no substratum.* ***** 8. Finally and most importantly, if realties were really inaccessible to sati and panna, the Buddha would not have taught the Satipatthana sutta, the Madhupindika sutta and the rest. Realities have characteristics which can be directly known ‘as they are’. This is the path which leads to the eradication of defilements and the realisation of nibbana. Conventions, it is true, cannot be known and merely hide true elements or paramattha dhammas when there is ignorance of the latter or concepts are taken for realities. Furthermore, when panna knows a reality, such as seeing consciousness, visible object or feeling, there is no ‘negotiation between the known entity and the knower’. There is no ‘knower’ other than panna. The reason that it seems that ‘the apprehension of these things is always from a particular vantage point’ is because no distinction is made between sammuti sacca and paramattha sacca (conventional and ultimate truths). Without this knowledge, panna will not develop and ideas of emptiness will be thinking about concepts. Indeed this is the very reason the teachings are inspiring and a path is possible. MN18; “’Bhikkhus,as to the source through which perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a man: if nothing is found there to delight in, welcome, and hold to, this is the end of the underlying tendency to lust,of the underlying tendency to aversion,... to views.....to doubt.......to conceit....to desire of being..... to ignorance.....’ “ Udana comy 395 : “ ‘Monks, if there were not’ that unconditioned element having as its own nature that which is unborn and so on, ‘there could not be made known’, there could not be discovered,there could not be witnessed, ‘here’, in this world, ‘the escape’, allayment without remainder, ‘for that which is conditioned’ reckoned as the khandha-pentad of form and so on that has as its own nature (sabhava) being born and so on, as they proceed making nibbana their object, extirpate the defilements without remainder. In this way, there is made known in this connection the non-occurrence of, the disappearance of, the escape from, the entire dukkha belonging to the cycle...” Comments very welcome! Metta, Sarah *see: sabhava, concepts and realities, concepts, bhavanga, nibbana, sunnatta, anatta etc under this link for more references: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts **Also see posts by RobM on this sutta: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m22375.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m21612.html ===================================================