28400 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:32am Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Ken O, k: Yes they occur spontaneously bc it is the way things are. Just like good deeds reap good fruits. As long as there is sati + panna, we leave the rest to chances, as enlightment cannot be forced or control, isn't this also a chance ;-) James: Okay, now we are going to get into some high philosophy. This approach to Buddhism that you and Sarah are advocating is more a synthesis of Buddhism and Gnosticism rather than pure Buddhism. Gnosticism is the belief that by cultivating an inherent wisdom that is present is only certain people, `Gnostics', these people may become enlightened and are never again reborn. Gnosticism and Buddhism actually share many similarities so it is quite easy to mix the two up. However, the difference is that the Buddha taught that the Path to Enlightenment is possible for anyone who follows the Eightfold Path, not just certain `wise' people. The Buddha accepted anyone into his Sangha because he believed this and taught this, not just to be nice. From my understanding, you believe that one must have this `spark of wisdom' (panna) already and that by wise reflection and good company this wisdom will intuitively grow without any direct effort. I'm sorry, but this is Gnosticism, not Buddhism. Not only that, but Gnostics believe that this inherent spark of wisdom must grow by individual, intuitive means, and learning the Abhidhamma would definitely not count because it is an outside source. The Buddha taught the Fourth Noble Truth which is that the round of samsara can be stopped for ANYONE who follows the Eightfold Path. It is a path of practice and not a description of any `mind moments' of those with enough panna (wisdom). For background information about Gnosticism: http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm k: When you concentrate, are you staying in place on one kasina, as the sutta on "Crossing over the Flood", those who stayed sinks. When Buddha say "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place.", means going with the flow, which means the discerning the flow of cittas and not damming the flow of cittas with concentration of a kasina. James: You have misinterpreted this sutta, it has nothing to do with concentration on a kasina (concentration subject); it has to do with following the Middle Way. Not only that, but your own Abhidhamma philosophy states that the flow of cittas cannot be `dammed' in anyway, from my understanding. kind regards Ken O Metta, James 28401 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert K > But the vipaka moments are always conditioned by either kusala or > akusala kamma .It is irrelevant whether there is any knowing of > this during the javana phase or not. It is just as it is. k: Hmm to me it can be quite significant. As said in Kotthita Sutta, about desire and passion arise in dependence of both forms and eye. Since eye consciouness is vipaka (with indifference feeling) so it is out of the equation, this means IMO javana process of the eye sense door process is the cause of such desire and passion. At least now IMO known that whenever a sense object is akusala in any sense door - this means it already brings the aksuala accumulation effect + latency. k: Furthermore, knowing technicality is impt, it builds faith (not blind ones) and develop understanding the Abhidhamma vis-a-vis Sutta. Moreover, it helps in discussion esp with a few good men here. ;-) kind regards Ken O 28402 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Jon and all, Jon: Michael, I'd be interested to hear your comments on these descriptions of 'sabhava' and 'paramattha'. Michael: I am sorry but I don’t think it would be profitable to continue the discussion about paramatha dhammas, sabhava and characteristics. I can see that there are very engrossed ideas about those themes among some members in this list. When one has such a strong attachment to some kind of view it can be very tiring to convince them otherwise. I don’t have the skill, time, and patience to do that. My best suggestion for those who view the Abhidhamma as metaphysics, considering dhammas as paramatha with sabhava and own characteristics, but that have an open mind to challenge their ideas, to study the Madhyamaka philosophy, in particular the writings of Nagarjuna. I am sure that this will only bring benefit over a long time. Metta Michael 28403 From: Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/28/03 3:23:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > Howard: > Well, of course there *could* be such a rupa, but it is > nowhere made clear, so far as I can see, what is the nature of it. > ... what is needed is some sort of demonstration of paramattha > dhammas, not pa~n~natti, that are properly called by these terms. > > Jon: > There is of course no rule that says if it's a dhamma that arises in > this world it must therefore be experiencable by you and me or, > conversely, if it can't be demonstrated to you and me then it can't > be a dhamma arising in this world. ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I've pointed out before, Jon, it can't be demonstrated that there is no Brahman/Atman. There is no need to prove its nonexistence - it is sufficient for there to be no evidence for its existence for one to disbelieve. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > The whole underlying thread of the teachings is that dhammas cannot > be experienced as they truly are except to developed panna. So it > would be anomalous if the finer points of the teachings or the subtle > rupas could somehow be 'demonstrated' to all and sundry. > > Countenancing the possibility of something, however, means nothing > more than not setting one's minds against it (even where it may seem > an unlikely proposition at first blush). It does not imply an 'act > of faith', nor even a willingness to accept anything uncritically. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do countenance the possibility of the existence of masculinity and feminity rupas, and a jivitiidriya rupa, and also a Brahman/Atman. I disbelieve in their existences, but I don't rule them out as impossible. As far as bhavanga cittas are concerned, I not only don't disbelieve in them - I think it is plausible that they exist, dreamless sleep serving as possible experiential evidence, and the entire commentarial theory of processes of cittas striking me as ringing true. (Of course, I could be wrong about bhavanga cittas - there might be no such things - but I think there is reasonable support for a belief in such states.) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28404 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:26am Subject: Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Hello James, and Devataasamyuttanikayists (is there such a word? :-)), Thanks for the unusual website (quick download too) - for me, it underlines the dreariness and unattractiveness of relentless rebirth. As a Christian, I used to secretly think I would die of boredom in what I was taught of as Heaven, but I looked with hope to the verse where Jesus mentions "In my fathers' house are many mansions" as meaning reincarnation. I looked on it as being a possible new 'adventure' each time. Adventures on the T.V. screen don't hurt. Life is different. How strange that I used to find joy in the idea of rebirth .. how strange... These suttas about the Devas are a goldmine of hidden meanings. I am so glad you and Sarah introduced a deeper study of them. Previously, I had thought some of the verses were interesting, and the stories cute, but they really are a help to understanding the Dhamma more deeply. I can't quickly locate where you quoted this sutta in full previously, so have taken the liberty of typing it again for those without a copy of the Samyutta Nikaya. 1 46 (6) Nymphs "Resounding with a host of nymphs, Haunted by a host of demons! This grove is to be called 'Deluding' How does one escape from it?" [n.100] "'The straight way' that path is called, and 'fearless' is its destination. The chariot is called 'unrattling', Fitted with wheels of wholesome states. "The sense of shame is its leaning board, Mindfulness its upholstery; I call the Dhamma the charioteer, With right view running out in front. [n.101] "One who has such a vehicle - Whether a woman or a man - Has, by means of this vehicle, Drawn close to Nibbaana." [n.102] Further sentences in note 100 explain that the first verse revolves around a word play between Nandana, the garden of delight, and Mohana, the garden of delusion. The garden was "resounding with a host of nymphs" because the nymphs were singing and playing musical instruments. Spk paraphrases the question by way of its intent: "Teach me insight meditation, which is the basis for arahantship." Interesting - I would have thought that Samatha and the Jhanas might have figured here, but it is Vipassanaa. "right view running out in front" is vipassanaa-sammaaditthi. "For just as the king's servants first clear the path before the king comes out, so the right view of insight clears the way by contemplating the aggregates, etc., as impermanent etc., and then the right view of the path (magga-sammaa-ditthi) arises fully understanding the round of existence." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > Note 100: Spk relates the background story: In his previous life this > deva had been an overzealous bhikkhu who had neglected sleep and food > in order to attend to his meditation subject. Because of his > excessive zeal, he died of a wind ailment and was immediately reborn > in the Tavatimsa heaven amidst a retinue of celestial nymphs > (acchara). The change occurred so quickly that he did not even know > he had expired and thought he was still a bhikkhu. The nymphs tried > to seduce him, but he rejected their amorous advances and tried to > resume his meditation practice. Finally, when the nymphs brought him > a mirror, he realized he had been reborn as a deva, but he thought "I > did not practice the work of an ascetic in order to take rebirth > here, but to attain the supreme goal of arahantship." Then, with his > virtue still intact, surrounded by the retinue of nymphs, he went to > the Buddha and spoke the first verse…" > > There is a very interesting Flash movie about devas at this link: > http://www.metta.lk/special-effects/index.htm > 28405 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: An Interesting But Fanciful Scenario Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Dear Howard, op 28-12-2003 07:10 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> >> I had afterthoughts about my jokes concerning citta and the groups of rupa, >> and I am really sorry, this was not appropriate. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not clear on what you are referring to, Nina, but I am not aware > of *anything* you said that was inappropriate or that calls for the slightest > apology. N: That is very kind of you. Lodewijk is very reserved about jokes, he said, you do not know what mood the other person is in. He prefers no jokes at all on internet. We cannot live like the monks or the arahats, that would be unnatural, but Vinaya helps us to see danger in the slightest faults. It means something that the monk is not supposed to joke. Working on bhavanga but also on Larry's thread, and intro to latent tendencies with Lodewijk's help. He is very keen on it, and was remarking how we do many things that seem so noble, but behind it all is selfishness. We just cannot skip akusala as object of awareness. But this does not mean that we have to say, now, I have to be aware of akusala, that is selecting, wrong again. H: I look forward to reading what you have to say further both with regard to rupas and bhavanga cittas, whenever you are ready. N: Yes, I like to, it is a good idea. Nina. 28406 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:48am Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: tipitaka.org Dear Sarah and all, this may interest the Pali students. frwd- Dear Yong Peng, op 28-12-2003 12:19 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@y...: > the Tipitaka website is online now: > http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html >N: hurray, thanks for telling us, Nina. 28407 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Dear Jon, op 28-12-2003 09:14 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > And secondly, it's > not a matter of 'paying attention', since that implies something 'to > be done', and also a conscious selection of the (perceived) presently > occurring object, whereas in fact that object has fallen away long > before it can be attended to. N: excellently put. What about a hardly perceptible selection, say, as I just was talking about to Howard, of awareness of akusala citta. That is a good point for Bgk!!! We know that it is very necessary to be aware of akusala, but as you say, it has fallen away. We need fast panna! It is no good to skip akusala and it is no good to select akusala as object of awareness. What subtle tricks tanha plays us all the time. I like to hear more about this, even before Bgk, and others may too. If Kom and Mike have time it would be very beneficial, they have also good ideas. I think that A. Sujin would say: self behind it all. She lets you feel this and then I can't help laughing. Jokes again! Nina. 28408 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:52am Subject: Flying the banner (Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders) Hello Sarah, and all, Thanks for the quotes. They do seem to be looking at conceit from the 'bragging about achievements" perspective. Maybe I misunderstood previously when I thought even talking about personal events and tragedies was a form of this. I'm not sure how talking about ones troubles could be called 'self-advertisement' - unless, maybe, because one is really saying "look at poor me!- I'm the important one, my suffering is important because ... well, because its ME that it's happening too!" Should we never mention problems then? How then does a person obtain comfort and support? Not supposed to need it? Just hope someone notices or is telepathic? I'd be out of a job! metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine & All, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > >I wonder where the 'flying > > the flag' quote came from? > .... > Here's one source: > > Atthasalini (bk 11, Part 11, ch2, 372) on conceit: > > " "Conceit", "overweening" and "conceitedness" signify mode and state. > "Loftiness" is in the sense of rising upwards or of springing over others. > "haughtiness", i.e. in whom conceit arises, him it lifts up, keeps > upraised. "Flaunting a flag" is in the sense of swelling above others. > "Assumption' means uplifting; conceit favours the mind all round. Of > many flags the flag which raises above others is called a banner. So > conceit arising repeatedly in the sense of excelling with reference to > subsequent conceits is like a banner. That mind which desires the banner > is said to be desirous of the banner (i.e. , self-advertisement). Such a > state is desire for self-advertisement......" > ..... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > 28409 From: Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Vism.XIV 59 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 12. The life faculty has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter. Its function is to make them occur. It is manifested in the establishing of their presence. Its proximate cause is primary elements that are to be sustained. And although it has the capacity consisting in the characteristic of maintaining, etc., yet it only maintains conascent kinds of matter at the moment of presence, as water does lotuses and so on. Though states (dhamma) arise due to their own conditions, it maintains them, as a wet-nurse does a prince. And it occurs itself only through its connexion with the states that occur, like a pilot; it does not cause occurrence after dissolution, because of its own absence and that of what has to be made to occur. It does not prolong presence at the moment of dissolution because it is itself dissolving, like the flame of a lamp when the wick and the oil are getting used up. But it must not be regarded as destitute of power to maintain, make occur, and make present, because it does accomplish each of these functions at the moment stated (cf. Dhs. 635).25 --------------------------- note 25. 'Since the life faculty is itself entirely kamma-born it is established, by taking them as conascent, that the things to be protected by it are kamma-born too; this is why there is no inclusion of the term "kamma-born". It maintains as if it were its own that kamma-born matter by being the cause of its occurrence even though only lasting for a moment; that is why it has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter. For kamma alone is not competent to be the cause of kamma-born things' presence, as nutriment, etc., are of the nutriment-born. ' "Because it does accomplish each of those functions": it does so because it is a condition for distinguishing what is living. For it is the life faculty that distinguishes matter that is bound up with faculties from dead matter, and kamma-born matter and what is bound up with that from matter that is temperature originated, and so on. 'And the life faculty must be regarded as the reason not only for presence during a moment but also for non-interruption of connexion; otherwise death as the termination of a life span would be illogical' (Pm. 448). 28410 From: Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 59 Hi Nina, Does the life faculty maintain any consciounesses? What about the formless realm? Is the life faculty the same for plants? Larry ---------------------- "The life faculty has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter." 28411 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies At least > now IMO known that whenever a sense object is akusala in any sense > door - this means it already brings the aksuala accumulation effect > + latency. ______________ Dear Ken, The sense door object is is rupa. It may be inherently unpleasant but as it is not nama we do not call it akusala. The experience of this object is also not akusala as its jati is vipaka. A good introducation to this is in Abhidhamma in daily life. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert K > > > > But the vipaka moments are always conditioned by either kusala or > > akusala kamma .It is irrelevant whether there is any knowing of > > this during the javana phase or not. It is just as it is. > > k: Hmm to me it can be quite significant. As said in Kotthita > Sutta, about desire and passion arise in dependence of both forms and > eye. Since eye consciouness is vipaka (with indifference feeling) so > it is out of the equation, this means IMO javana process of the eye > sense door process is the cause of such desire and passion. > > > k: Furthermore, knowing technicality is impt, it builds faith (not > blind ones) and develop understanding the Abhidhamma vis-a-vis Sutta. > Moreover, it helps in discussion esp with a few good men here. ;-) > > > > > kind regards > Ken O 28412 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 5:20pm Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi All, (Better late than never -- since this is one of my favourite suttas.) James wrote: ------------ > The difficulty of determining The Middle Way is very strong in today's world. The world is void of strict austerities so the whole standard has shifted more to the pleasure side in most people's minds. For example, smoking just one pack of cigarettes instead of ten isn't following the Middle Way! ;-)) What we might consider the Middle Way the Buddha probably wouldn't. What do you think? > ------------- I think it should be stressed that the Middle Way is not a hybrid of conventional views: In the conventional view of the eternalists, we should strive for rebirth in heaven (what better place to live for ever). In the conventional view of the annihilationists, we shouldn't strive at all; we should just eat, drink and be merry (for tomorrow we die and our suffering will be ended). I think the only reason for calling right view the Middle Way is that it is neither of the these two extremes. We mustn't think right view is a midpoint between two wrong views. It is not a happy medium between strict asceticism and overindulgence. In its mundane form, right view is a momentary direct understanding of conditioned reality; in its supramundane form, it is momentary direct understanding of unconditioned reality (Nibbana). It is only in this way that the flood is crossed -- without any concept of self-denial and without any concept of self-indulgence AND without any concept of self-moderation. Kind regards, Ken H 28413 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert RobK, your explanation is not congruent with the one I quoted below by Nina, “The sense door object is is rupa. It may be inherently unpleasant but as it is not nama we do not call it akusala. The experience of this object is also not akusala as its jati is vipaka. A good introducation to this is in Abhidhamma in daily life.” <> An object which is inherent unpleasant is only experience in the javana processs. Bc what is inherent pleasant and unpleasant is only due to our conditioning of kamma, our conditioned reaction to the object. We cannot said an object has pleasant or unpleasant bc pleasant and unpleasant are vedana and not the object itself. Just like an image of a spider may scare some pple off for others it is a joy to study them. Hence the spider is neither pleasant or unpleasant till we have "partake" the "spider". Furthermore, inherent is only applicable to the characteristic of a paramatha dhamma. An earth rupa has the inherent characteristic "solidity" but it does not has the pleasant or unpleasant characterisitics. Hence we cannot say a rupa is inherently unpleasant which is a vedana characterisitc. Sorry to bother you again, I like to clarify on the sense door process again. What is pasada rupa. I remember I read somewhere it is the pasada rupa that impinge on the averting door citta. Is this passda rupa that is the rupa that a sense door process holds till the seventeen moments. kind regards Ken O 28414 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken, here is a quick quote from the Dispeller of Delusion. I hope this clarifies. From the Dispeller of Delusion(Sammohavinodani) p9-11: Rupa sadda (visible data, sounds)..there are none which are disagreeable that are born of profitable kamma; all are agreeable only....But a disputatious speaker (vitandavadin) said 'There is no intrinsic agreeable and disagreeable'It is according to the likings of these or those 9individuals)[and the vitandavadin goes on to give an example of how to people in some distant place worms are considered a delicacy whereas most people find them repulsive , he also says the same about peacocks flesh]. He should be asked 'But how? Do you say that there is no distinguishing an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable?' 'Yes: I say there is not?..[it continues a little more and then refutes the vitantavadin (sectarian of another school)] ''It is through perversion of perception that the same object is agreeable for one and disagreeable for another. But there is the distinguishing of an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable'.......the elder Tipitaka Cula-Abhaya said: 'The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to vipaka (kamma result) only, not according to javana (impulsion that follows the vipaka). But it is impulsion through perversion of perception (sannavipallasa)only that lusts for the agreeable and hates the same agreeable; that lusts for the disagreeable and hates the same agreeable. Only by way of vipaka however is it rightly distinguishable. For resultant consciousness (vipaka citta) cannot be mistaken. If the object is agreeable it is profitable result that has arisen; if disagreeable, it is unprofitable result that has arisen. Although those of wrong view on seeing such exalted objects as the enlightened one(buddha) shut their eyes and feel domanassa (unpleasant feeling)[arising during the javana stage]and on hearing the Dhamma they stop their ears nevertheless their eye-consciouness, ear-consciousness , etc are only profitable kamma result (vipaka). Although dung eating pigs on smelling the odour of dung become joyful, thinking;'we shall get something to eat' nevertheless their eye-consciousness (a vipaka) in the seeing of the dung, nose consciousness (a vipaka) in smelling its odour and tongue consciousness (a vipaka)in tasting its flavour is only unprofitable result."" ENDQUOTE In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert > > RobK, your explanation is not congruent with the one I quoted below > by Nina, > > "The sense door object is is rupa. It may be inherently unpleasant > but as it is not nama we do not call it akusala. The experience of > this object is also not akusala as its jati is vipaka. A good > introducation to this is in Abhidhamma in daily life." > > < http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-03.htm states > "Every time we experience an unpleasant object through one of the > five senses, there is akusala vipaka. Every time we experience a > pleasant object through one of the five senses there is kusala > vipaka." >> > > An object which is inherent unpleasant is only experience in the > javana processs. Bc what is inherent pleasant and unpleasant is only > due to our conditioning of kamma, our conditioned reaction to the > object. We cannot said an object has pleasant or unpleasant bc > pleasant and unpleasant are vedana and not the object itself. Just > like an image of a spider may scare some pple off for others it is a > joy to study them. Hence the spider is neither pleasant or > unpleasant till we have "partake" the "spider". Furthermore, > inherent is only applicable to the characteristic of a paramatha > dhamma. An earth rupa has the inherent characteristic "solidity" > but it does not has the pleasant or unpleasant characterisitics. > Hence we cannot say a rupa is inherently unpleasant which is a vedana > characterisitc. > > > Sorry to bother you again, I like to clarify on the sense door > process again. What is pasada rupa. I remember I read somewhere it > is the pasada rupa that impinge on the averting door citta. Is this > passda rupa that is the rupa that a sense door process holds till the > seventeen moments. > > > kind regards > Ken O 28415 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James > James: Okay, now we are going to get into some high philosophy. > This approach to Buddhism that you and Sarah are advocating is more a synthesis of Buddhism and Gnosticism rather than pure Buddhism. > Gnosticism is the belief that by cultivating an inherent wisdom > that is present is only certain people, `Gnostics', these people may > become enlightened and are never again reborn. k: James, in my opinion there is no such thing as an inherent wisdom. An inherent wisdom will mean an original mind concept or luminous mind (we are not debating this ;-) ) Definitely Arahant do not reborn again or not what is the point of being enlighted and suffer again. James: However, the difference is that the Buddha taught that the Path to Enlightenment is possible for anyone who follows the Eightfold Path, not just certain `wise' people. The Buddha accepted anyone into his Sangha because he believed this and taught this, not just to be nice. k: Fully agreed. James: From my understanding, you believe that one must have this `spark of wisdom' (panna) already and that by wise reflection and good company this wisdom will intuitively grow without any direct effort. I'm sorry, but this is Gnosticism, not Buddhism. Not only that, but Gnostics believe that this inherent spark of wisdom must grow by individual, intuitive means, and learning the Abhidhamma would definitely not count because it is an outside source. The Buddha taught the Fourth Noble Truth which is that the round of samsara can be stopped for ANYONE who follows the Eightfold Path. It is a path of practice and not a description of any `mind moments' of those with enough panna (wisdom). k: As I said earlier, there is no such thing as innate spark of wisdom. Wise reflection and good company are advocate by Buddha not me. And definitely you are right to say anyone could follow the path. > James: You have misinterpreted this sutta, it has nothing to do > with concentration on a kasina (concentration subject); it has to do > with following the Middle Way. Not only that, but your own Abhidhamma philosophy states that the flow of cittas cannot be `dammed' in anyway, from my understanding. k: Damming is just a description for my sinking analogy. But James your stand is that meditation on one object is the path of Enlightment not me. You are the one advocating, one must practise this and I am the one who say this is not the middle way. K: Let me requote what Christine quote in an earlier post <<1 46 (6) Nymphs "Resounding with a host of nymphs, Haunted by a host of demons! This grove is to be called 'Deluding' How does one escape from it?" [n.100] "'The straight way' that path is called, and 'fearless' is its destination. The chariot is called 'unrattling', Fitted with wheels of wholesome states. "The sense of shame is its leaning board, Mindfulness its upholstery; I call the Dhamma the charioteer, With right view running out in front. [n.101] "One who has such a vehicle - Whether a woman or a man - Has, by means of this vehicle, Drawn close to Nibbaana." [n.102]>> k: Does it say one must do meditation. Does it say one must purposed do this or purposed do that. Or was it on wholesome states, on mindfulness, morality. kind regards Ken O 28416 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi RobK I have read this before and at that time it was not impt. Ahh now it is different, things fall into place. I think the word used is pivotal in my understanding bc agreeable and disagreeable has make a lot of sense rather than pleasant and unpleasant bc pleasant and unpleasant are vedana. I think the adding of confusion is aggravated by the fact that vipaka is indifference. Indeed, Dispeller of Delusion is correct, the perversion of preception, very nicely, said :). Yes again very well said, it is intrinsic agreeable or not are due to kamma, bc it is the fruit and not the cause :) I have to give three bows to the translator Bhikkhu Namoli (it is a pity that he passed away so soon at the age of 55, a great loss to the Abhidhamma translation) Many thanks and kind regards Ken O 28417 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hello Sarah, what a pleasure to hear back from you. Please see my comments below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > Thanks for getting back on our discussion;-) > > --- "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote:> > > %%%%%%%% Jeff: > > moment-to-moment mindfulness, as I use the term is attentive awareness > > of every activity, no mstter how trivial, as in the Satipatthana Sutta > > MN 10 > .... > S:I would like to suggest that it is not awareness `of every activity', > but awareness `during/whilst undertaking every (or any) activity'. The > objects of awareness are those included in the 4 satipatthanas, i.e the 5 > khandhas or all namas and rupas, but not concepts or activities. > ..... > J:> 3. Awareness with Clear Comprehension > > %%%%% Jeff: I prefer to use attentive awareness than clear comprehension, because comprehension implies cognition, and it is clear to me, the Buddha was looking for a bare awareness without the cognitive process involved. Comprehension would imply cognition. Secondly, if you read the Satipatthana Sutta, MN 10 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html then you will see: III. The Contemplation of consciousness and mental states (Cognition) and IV. The Contemplation of Mental Objects For me, this practice has definitely been a moment-to-moment awareness practice of all 7 senses, which includes all actions, words and thoughts. Through this practice I have been fortunate to arrive at a pleasant abiding in the here and now. I am quite sure if I was not mindful in every moment I would not have a pleasant abiding in every moment. %%%%%%%%% > .... > S: At these times, i.e in daily life, whatever the activity, sati > sampajanna (sati and panna) can and should arise of the various dhammas > included in the 4 satipatthanas. I recommend a look under `Satipatthana > Sutta and Commentaries in UP which you're most welcome to comment on: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > As I know you're busy with all your correspondence, I'll quote one at the > end of this post which is relevant. > .... > > %%%%%%%% Jeff: > > Moment-to-moment mindfulness to me means everything, even if aurus and > > chakras enter ones awareness domain. > > %%%%%%%% > .... > S: That's OK, Jeff. But this isn't satipatthana as described by the > Buddha. Of course sati itself arises with all wholesome states of > consciousness, but sati of satipatthana can only be aware of a paramattha > dhamma (ultimate reality). %%%%%%% Jeff:Sorry to disagree again. I believe it is awareness of everything that arrives in the sense domain. Also, I am not just relying on the Sati suttas. I have read the whole if the Digha Nikaya and much of the Majjhima Nikaya, and if you read the Lohicca Sutta DN 12 you will clearly see that the historic Buddha trained his students to recall past lifetimes through clairvoyance, and to develop Clairaudience and to also develop a mind-made body, which from the description is clearly astral traveling. Therefore, even though auras and chakras are not clearly mentioned it is reasonable that these realities would not have been ignored. %%%%%%% > .... > J:> Interesting questions Sarah however you assume there is an unwholesome > > bliss or jhana, or absorption. > .... > S: I think my comments were merely suggesting that pana (wisdom) has to be > very refined and developed to really understand and know the distinction > between wholesome states and those which can easily masquerade for the > same and fool us all the time. Like now, there may be neutral feeling or > pleasant feeling. Is it wholesome or unwholesome? Panna has to be so sharp > to really know the states following the experiences through the sense > doors and this can only be with detachment. The test is always at this > moment. Without highly developed panna which knows the distinction between > these states, samatha cannot develop, let alone reach high levels of > absorption and so on. %%%%%%%% Jeff: Well, I think Sarah, you are missing one point wisdom depends on being purified by jhana, not the other way around. %%%%%%%% > .... > J:>There isn't one, because otherwise it > > would not be jhana. > .... > S: There isn't unwholesome jhana, but there are unwholesome jhana factors > or mental states which are included under jhana condition. Highly > developed concentration, bliss and so on are not necessarily wholesome at %%%%%%% Jeff: Again I beg to dissagree. %%%%%%% > all. > .... > J:>If you recall the 4 Noble Truths, suffering > > (dukkha) caused be grasping and aversion. The pleasant abiding in the > > here and now the Buddha spoke of was jhana. > .... > S: We need to be careful of the context. > > Perhaps we can say that `sukha vihaara' refers to pleasant abiding for > those accomplished in jhanas (jhana-samapatti). Additionally, for ariyan > disciples, with mastery in jhanas, it refers to fruition-attainment (phala > samapatti) according to the level of enlightenment attained. > > "All ariyans attain their own respective fruition" Ud Comy, Enlightenmnet > Ch. > > I wrote more details in this post: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24069 > .... > J:>Therefore one does not > > get jhana with grasping and aversion. One gets suffering. > ... > S: I'd go further and suggest `one' doesn't `get' it at all. Even the > experiencing of jhana states is anatta. > > I hope we continue our discussion, even with long intervals is fine. I > appreciate your reflections and comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > *Jon > > The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas > (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the > dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental > objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object > of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities > (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). > > To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the > consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a > reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object > of seeing consciousness). > > So the visible object at that moment falls under both the rupas' section > and the mind object' section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind > us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying > realities and are not in themselves absolutes. > > Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only > something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being > experienced is considered to be a dhamma'; anything that does not, is > not. > > In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are > described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas > (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than > Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from The Way of Mindfulness' > > Jon > > Section on Mental Objects > 2. The Aggregates > > "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in > the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. > > "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the > mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? > > "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks: > 'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and > thus is the disappearance of material form. > Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the > disappearance of feeling. > Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is > the disappearance of perception. > Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations; > and thus is the disappearance of the formations. > Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and > thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' > > Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally > ... and clings to naught in the world. > > "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in > the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] > ********** > END QUOTE %%%%%% Jeff: Unfortunately I do not accept the translation of vinnana as Consciousness, especially in this case. If we do as the above quote suggests, then we come to the absurd conclusion that we ultimately seek an conscious state in nibbana. This of course is absurd, because we have been practicing awareness training exercises in Sati. Therefore why would we assume we go to all of the trouble of developing awareness if ultimately we are going to end up unconscious? If that were true we might as well go to sleep or commit suicide, and get it over with quickly. It was a pleasure discussing the dhamma with you. Best regards, Jeff Brooks Ecstatic Buddhism A newsletter for ecstatic Buddhists website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/ Subscribe: Ecstatic_Buddhism-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 28418 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:19am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Ken!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken:" I think it should be stressed that the Middle Way is not > a hybrid of conventional views: " -------------------------------------------------------------------- Right on, Ken! If there´s any original remark on Buddha´s dispensation, it´s the fact t= hat it´s not a mere picked up bunch of selected Hindu texts (as a garland of= flowers or whatever): it´s a new standpoint on philosophical, existential o= r even at religious realms! I usually get the feeling that Theravada Buddhism it´s the last word, th= e terminal point of all Hinduistic concepts on Philosophy and religion, goin= g beyond these in all aspects to new avenues of reasoning and insight! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken:" In the conventional view of the eternalists, we should > strive for rebirth in heaven (what better place to live > for ever). In the conventional view of the > annihilationists, we shouldn't strive at all; we should > just eat, drink and be merry (for tomorrow we die and our > suffering will be ended). > > I think the only reason for calling right view the Middle > Way is that it is neither of the these two extremes. We > mustn't think right view is a midpoint between two wrong > views. It is not a happy medium between strict asceticism > and overindulgence. > > In its mundane form, right view is a momentary direct > understanding of conditioned reality; in its supramundane > form, it is momentary direct understanding of > unconditioned reality (Nibbana)." --------------------------------------------------------------------- In all hinduistic religious culture everyone speaks on Moksha, Kaivalya .= .. the concept of "liberation" is deeply rooted on all these viewpoints:but = Buddha was the first (beside Mahavir and other unusual hindu masters) to poi= nt out the real labour of mind and their real aims, mainly the best one - re= aching the other shore, the Nibbana. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ken:" It is only in this way that the flood is crossed -- without > any concept of self-denial and without any concept of > self-indulgence AND without any concept of self-moderation." ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Self"-Moderation ??? It´s not ours, mister! Mettaya, Ícaro 28419 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:55am Subject: 4 Sati Suttas? Hello Sarah, in my last post forgot to ask you about the following comment you made. I am only familiar with the three following Sati Suttas? Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN. 22) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html Is there another one that I should be aware of? Best regards, Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > Thanks for getting back on our discussion;-) >> .... > S:I would like to suggest that it is not awareness `of every activity', > but awareness `during/whilst undertaking every (or any) activity'. The > objects of awareness are those included in the 4 satipatthanas, i.e the 5 > khandhas or all namas and rupas, but not concepts or activities. 28420 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/28/03 8:21:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > I think it should be stressed that the Middle Way is not > a hybrid of conventional views: > > In the conventional view of the eternalists, we should > strive for rebirth in heaven (what better place to live > for ever). In the conventional view of the > annihilationists, we shouldn't strive at all; we should > just eat, drink and be merry (for tomorrow we die and our > suffering will be ended). > > I think the only reason for calling right view the Middle > Way is that it is neither of the these two extremes. We > mustn't think right view is a midpoint between two wrong > views. It is not a happy medium between strict asceticism > and overindulgence. > > In its mundane form, right view is a momentary direct > understanding of conditioned reality; in its supramundane > form, it is momentary direct understanding of > unconditioned reality (Nibbana). > > It is only in this way that the flood is crossed -- without > any concept of self-denial and without any concept of > self-indulgence AND without any concept of self-moderation. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================== There are several senses to 'the middle way'. One of these is the Noble Eightfold Path, itself, by which I mean the Buddha's path of practice, a conventional process, volitionally tread (as opposed to a momentary arising of factors). This is the primary meaning of the term. It was (and is) the alternative to doing whatever one wants (simply indulging oneself), on the one hand, and strict asceticism, on the other. The Eightfold Path of Practice is an alternative to these two extremes, and is not a midpoint between them. It involves neither doing nothing (and thus sinking) nor engaging in extreme and pointless deprivation (and thus being swept away). It is a doing, but a very subtle and precise doing. Another sense is that of the philosophical middle replacing the extremes of eternalism-substantialism and annihilationism-nihilism by the emptiness-conditionality of dependent origination. This philosophical middle way is also not a compromise and not an amalgam, but something else entirely, and compared to the two extremes, it is extremely subtle. The "emptiness view" of dependent origination is, indeed, a middle-way view; it is Right View, and it is not a combination of or compromise between wrong views. But the not halting and not straining of this Crossing the Flood sutta does not pertain to view only; it pertains to the entire middle-way path of practice of the Buddha, the direct path to liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28421 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:10am Subject: life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Dear Larry, Dan, Howard and all, Larry, I was so glad to receive your two-liners early morning before breakfast. I had missed them. But do not go too fast, my transl is not ready yet. A line by line business, I have to make the word list for the Pali lovers. Yes, it is my morning meditation. I am thinking of Dan's sympathetic mail about Abhidhamma meditation, , going straight to the heart. It is true, but we have to find this out for ourselves. You guys really inspire me to consider difficult points and to try to make them relevant for our life, like Howard's questions. I never knew this before I joined Internet and dsg. When we read definitions of life faculty, or sex faculty, it seems that they are abstract, only concepts, and often ungraspable. They are rupas which are , not easy to penetrate, according to the Visuddhimagga. Let us consider the cause, kamma. Kamma aeons ago may have produced our rebirth-consciousness, it is really a mystery when we think of it. It is past kamma (from a former life) that keeps on producing life faculty, also at this moment. This faculty makes all the difference between dead matter and a living body. I went to the swimming pool and what a good place for meditation. We cling so much to being alive, to health, to being female or male. But these are only rupas produced by kamma. Kamma is past, but life-faculty has a special function to maintain the other rupas in the groups produced by kamma. These groups are all over the body. There are showers annex to the pool, and while we were standing there under the shower, a fellow swimmer talked to us about old friends in wheelchairs he had visited in homes for the aged. It could not be any better, reminders of old age. And I was considering life faculty. Our clinging to body, to health. And in the Abhidhamma, Book of Analysis Ch 7 there is that impressive list of objects of conceit (I mentioned before) and among these: Does the life faculty maintain any consciounesses? What about the > formless realm? Is the life faculty the same for plants? 28422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:10am Subject: anapanasati 9 a anapanasati 9 a (Jon to Rob Ep, Sept 16): the Anapanasati Sutta is a teaching on attaining to the superior kind of insight known as 'insight both ways', based on jhana, in this case jhana with breath as object. As such, is directed at those who have already attained jhana with breath as object or who are potentially capable of doing so. For such individuals, breath is already a naturally arising object in their daily life, a daily life that is far different from yours and mine. So, no, I do not read this sutta as *advocating* anything about taking a particular object for insight development... As I have indicated, the sutta was given for the benefit of those (monks) who are already highly adept at attending to the breath (actually, its nimitta) as an object of samatha, and for those persons the sutta is indeed about the discernment of an 'everyday object'. Jon: My view on the usefulness or appropriateness of formal meditation practice issue is simple: anything that's supported by the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries, either expressly or implicitly, as being appropriate for the development of the path is to be encouraged (but if it's not, then not). In determining what falls within this ambit, I don't believe one can rely on generally held ideas among Buddhist groups, or on the assurances of others. I think it's necessary to look at the texts for oneself. Nor do i think one can simply rely on results of just any 'practice' that seem to match things found in the texts; the 'practice' must be as indicated by the Buddha from the outset, otherwise the results cannot be the real thing -- they will give a 'false positive'. I've just been looking again through the Satipatthana Sutta, this time focussing on what I might call the 'operative words', that is, the key terms used by the Buddha in describing how each of the 4 foundations/arousings of mindfulness is carried out. I list these out below. I think they make interesting reading. [Body] Mindful, he breathes in thinking, 'I breathe in long,' he understands 'thinking thus, he trains himself understands: 'I am going'; is a person practising clear comprehension reflects... thinking thus thinks of his own body thus [Feeling] experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands... [Consciousness] understands the consciousness with lust [Mental objects] knows with understanding [5 hindrances] thinks: 'Thus is material form...' [5 khandhas] understands the eye and material forms [6 sense-bases] knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor [7 enlightenment factors] understands: 'This is suffering,' [4 noble truths] This doesn't seem to me like the language of formal meditation practice. Do you see anything here, or elsewhere in the sutta, that points to a formal meditation practice? Jon 28423 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 0:40pm Subject: Re: 4 Sati Suttas? Hello Jeff, Sarah and all, Enjoying your discussion. Perhaps when Sarah referred to the 4 Satipatthanas she was meaning the Four Foundations of Mindfulness themselves - Kayanupassana (constant observation of the body), Vedananupassana (constant observation of sensation), cittanupassana (constant observation of the mind), and Dhammanupassana (constant observation of the contents of the mind). Jeff - with your enthusiasm for all things Jhana, you may be interested in AN VIII.63 the Sankhitta Sutta 'In Brief (Good Will, Mindfulness, & Concentration)' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html Thanissaro says: "This discourse is important in that it explicitly refers to the practice of the four frames of reference (the four foundations of mindfulness) as a form of concentration practice, mastered in terms of the levels of jhana." Just a brief look, so this is not comprehensive, but in the Satipatthaanasamyutta there are 104 suttas (some repetition) in the "Connected Discourses on the Establishments of Mindfulness" (Wisdom. Bhikkhu Bodhi). A small number of Thanissaro's translations of these suttas are on-line at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Maha MN 119 Kayagata-sati sutta 'Mindfulness immersed in the Body' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote: > Hello Sarah, in my last post forgot to ask you about the following > comment you made. I am only familiar with the three following Sati > Suttas? > > Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html > Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN. 22) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html > Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html > > > Is there another one that I should be aware of? > > Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks > 28424 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:50pm Subject: The present moment Hi everyone, (that includes me) There are two types of present moment. One is the PRESENT as experienced in terms of the PAST. This present is not a given, but is constructed entirely on intention. Intention is based in the past to maintain it in the future. It is always based on self-view. The purpose of this type of present moment is indeed to maintain in the future the self-view that lies at it's origin. This type of present moment is always accompanied by conflict and anxiety, because it requires much effort to maintain the illusion of the reality of what is not real. When the conflict and anxiety become greater than the craving for the next moment with self view, the opportunity has arisen to not intend a future moment based on the past, and thus obtain a glimpse of the Present in terms of itself. This moment is given, unchangeable, timeless. It has no content. It is free of anxiety and conflict. This moment is not intended, but is there when there is no intention. The Buddha praised a lifestyle in which it was possible to become free of intention. The only consequence that follows from ignoring his recommendations is the continuation of the past-future life that is craved for. Anxiety and conflict and lip service to the Triple Gem can go on forever. May all be free from anxiety and conflict Herman 28425 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Hi Nina, I agree it would be difficult to take life as an object of satipatthana. I considered my hair, what little there is. At the tip it is dead but at the root it is alive. But this doesn't really touch life itself. What is the difference between the continuity of a non-living rupa such as what we would call a stick and a living rupa such as what we would call an insect? There is continuity in both cases but the stick doesn't eat. Is there a connection between life and nutriment? Larry 28426 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] The present moment Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/29/03 6:59:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi everyone, (that includes me) > > There are two types of present moment. > > One is the PRESENT as experienced in terms of the PAST. This present > is not a given, but is constructed entirely on intention. Intention > is based in the past to maintain it in the future. It is always > based on self-view. The purpose of this type of present moment is > indeed to maintain in the future the self-view that lies at it's > origin. This type of present moment is always accompanied by > conflict and anxiety, because it requires much effort to maintain > the illusion of the reality of what is not real. When the conflict > and anxiety become greater than the craving for the next moment with > self view, the opportunity has arisen to not intend a future moment > based on the past, and thus obtain a glimpse of the > > Present in terms of itself. This moment is given, unchangeable, > timeless. It has no content. It is free of anxiety and conflict. > > This moment is not intended, but is there when there is no intention. > > The Buddha praised a lifestyle in which it was possible to become > free of intention. The only consequence that follows from ignoring > his recommendations is the continuation of the past-future life that > is craved for. Anxiety and conflict and lip service to the Triple > Gem can go on forever. > > May all be free from anxiety and conflict > > > Herman > > ============================ It *sounds* to me that you may be saying something very important and quite deep here. Unfortunately for me, it is passing me by without my getting it. Could you explain a but more? In particular, how exactly are you using the word 'intention'. It *seems* to me that your meaning is different than the usual, everyday meaning or at least is different from how I understand the word. (The word, of course, isn't important, but the meaning is.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28427 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 6:42pm Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Htoo, ------------- Htoo: > Do you really think that this is just conceptual imitation of Satipatthana? There are many posts coming regarding the practice. > ------------- I will read them with interest. Perhaps my questions should wait until then. Since learning a little Abhidhamma, I am wary of any 'Buddhist practice' that seems to require the notion of a self who can practise. Instead, I think it is purely a matter of understanding paramattha dhammas. ------------- Htoo: > Did I say ' mindfulness of concepts leads to mindfulness of Dhamma ' ? But mindfulness of all leads to mindfulness of dhamma including concepts. -------------- I'll be interested to see what that means. I hope it doesn't include concentrating on concepts; I've tried that and it didn't work :-) Kind regards, Ken H 28428 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:13pm Subject: life etc. Hi Nina, I wonder if life faculty could even be an object of one of the 5 doors. Is there a category of realities which can only be inferred because of limitations of the sense doors? Can we say that not all realities are objects of satipatthana? Larry 28429 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:14pm Subject: life-faculty, explanation Dear Larry, some explanations of footnote 25. Do ask if anything is not clear. (answers to your other questions are coming) note 25. 'Since the life faculty is itself entirely kamma-born it is established, by taking them as conascent, that the things to be protected by it are kamma-born too; this is why there is no inclusion of the term "kamma-born". N: The rupas conascent with life faculty are in one group that originates from kamma. Thus there is no need to say that the other rupas that are conascent are also originating from kamma. 'It maintains as if it were its own that kamma-born matter by being the cause of its occurrence even though only lasting for a moment; that is why it has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter. For kamma alone is not competent to be the cause of kamma-born things' presence, as nutriment, etc., are of the nutriment-born.' N: Kamma is past kamma and is since long fallen away. But life-faculty maintains the other rupas in the group originated from kamma. U Narada: , thus, it is not the same as the way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in their respective groups. These rupas produced by them are compared to a child with the mother alive, ' "Because it does accomplish each of those functions": it does so because it is a condition for distinguishing what is living. For it is the life faculty that distinguishes matter that is bound up with faculties from dead matter, and kamma-born matter and what is bound up with that from matter that is temperature originated, and so on.' N: Kamma-born matter is not only different from dead matter but also from materiality produced by the three other factors of heat, nutrition, citta. 'And the life faculty must be regarded as the reason not only for presence during a moment but also for non-interruption of connexion; otherwise death as the termination of a life span would be illogical' N: The groups of rupa with life-faculty fall away but they are replaced throughout life until death occurs. Pm. 448). 28430 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, explanation Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/30/03 12:16:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: Kamma is past kamma and is since long fallen away. But life-faculty > maintains the other rupas in the group originated from kamma. U Narada: does not relate by the force of production>, thus, it is not the same as the > way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in > their respective groups. These rupas produced by them are compared to a > child with the mother alive, maintained by physical life-faculty, is compared to the motherless child > maintained by a wet-nurse.> > ============================ I understand this to be saying that the kammic cause is long gone, and so the life force serves in its stead to maintain the kamma-produced rupas. The following questions occur to me then: 1) What maintains the life force? 2) The factors of nutrition, heat, and citta that produce other rupas may not be *long* gone, but they are gone. Gone is gone - length of time is irrelevant. What serves in the stead of the nutrition, heat, and citta to maintain these other rupas? 3) More generally, what more is needed for "maintenance" than condit ionality? With metta , Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28431 From: Date: Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, explanation Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 12/30/03 1:02:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... asks: > 2) The factors of nutrition, heat, and citta that produce other rupas > may not be *long* gone, but they are gone. Gone is gone - length of time is > irrelevant. What serves in the stead of the nutrition, heat, and citta to > maintain these other rupas? > =========================== I think I have just partly answered this question for myself. I remember that in Abhidhamma, multiple rupas can co-exist (though at most one of them as object of a citta), so the nutrition and heat might not be gone, but could co-exist with the rupas they produce, and thus no life-force maintenance is needed. I suppose that when a prior citta is the cause, then that is when the namic version of life force comes into play. Would this be the Abhidhammic response to my question (2)? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28432 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:04am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Icaro, Congratulations on surviving boot camp -- and with a promotion (if I understood you correctly)! ------------- I: > If there´s any original remark on Buddha´s dispensation, it´s the fact that it´s not a mere picked up bunch of selected Hindu texts (as a garland of flowers or whatever): -------------- That's a lovely metaphor (in more ways than one). And it's a good thing that the Buddha´s dispensation is not a bunch of pretty bits picked from here and there -- because it wouldn't work. --------------- I: > In all hinduistic religious culture everyone speaks on Moksha, Kaivalya ... the concept of "liberation" is deeply rooted on all these viewpoints:but Buddha was the first (beside Mahavir and other unusual hindu masters) to point out the real labour of mind and their real aims, mainly the best one - reaching the other shore, the Nibbana. ---------------- I don't follow that but I'm sure you're right :-) -------------- I: > "Self"-Moderation ??? It´s not ours, mister! -------------- No, and it's not anyone else's either. Kind regards, Ken H 28433 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:16am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Howard, Thanks for your reply. ---------- H: > There are several senses to 'the middle way'. One of these is the Noble Eightfold Path, itself, ----------- I think we can regard Middle Way and Eight-fold Path as synonyms (with allowances for the five-fold, mundane, version). I would say Right Understanding is a third synonym but you might not see it that way. ----------- H:> by which I mean the Buddha's path of practice, a conventional process, volitionally tread (as opposed to a momentary arising of factors). ---------- Never!!!! :-) It is always a momentary arising of factors (phenomena). There is never anything but momentary phenomena -- apart from nibbana, the object of the path. ---------- H: > This is the primary meaning of the term. It was (and is) the alternative to doing whatever one wants (simply indulging oneself), on the one hand, and strict asceticism, on the other. The Eightfold Path of Practice is an alternative to these two extremes, and is not a midpoint between them. It involves neither doing nothing (and thus sinking) nor engaging in extreme and pointless deprivation (and thus being swept away). ----------- We agree here, although, instead of "nor engaging in extreme and pointless deprivation," I would prefer you had said, "nor doing something." ----------- H: > It is a doing, but a very subtle and precise doing. ----------- Now we disagree. What you call 'a very subtle and precise doing,' is still one of the extremes. The Middle Way will never be found by lightening-up on our asceticism or by toning down our indulgence. I don't think it matters whether we live in a remote forest, eating fallen berries and wearing picked-up rags -- as have some ariyan disciples -- or, if we live in a castle -- as, also, some ariyan disciples have done. ------------- H: > Another sense is that of the philosophical middle replacing the extremes of eternalism-substantialism and annihilationism-nihilism by the emptiness-conditionality of dependent origination. This philosophical middle way is also not a compromise and not an amalgam, but something else entirely, and compared to the two extremes, it is extremely subtle. The "emptiness view" of dependent origination is, indeed, a middle-way view; it is Right View, and it is not a combination of or compromise between wrong views. --------------- Now you're talking! Here, there is no hint of a self who is 'doing' or 'not doing.' This explanation -- of nama and rupa -- is our intellectual understanding of the Middle Way. Even though I am glad we agree, I am suspicious of that word 'emptiness.' Can we replace it with 'anatta?' 'Emptiness' might be misconstrued as, 'no-sabhava.' :-) ------------- H: > But the not halting and not straining of this Crossing the Flood sutta does not pertain to view only; it pertains to the entire middle-way path of practice of the Buddha, the direct path to liberation. ------------- Don't worry: after right view, the rest follows automatically -- by conditions. Kind regards, Ken H 28434 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Sarah, Sarah: I'll just respond to the Vism definition of equanimity as I think I've responded to the other points just now. I actually appreciated this post (all trimmed) very much, because it really helped me consider more about equanimity, pleasant feeling and so on. James: I'm glad that you appreciated the post all trimmed; here you are going to get another one. ;-) Sarah: Let me add a little more which may or may not help. Again, I'll ask someone else to pick up the baton if not. James: Yes, this detail did help me to understand a bit more about your position in regards to equanimity. But again, I think that the Vism does little more than confuse the issue. Sarah: Vism X1V, 153 "Specific neutrality …" "It has the characteristic of conveying consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly. Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. …" Atthasalini (Expositor p176): "'Equanimity' (or balance of mind)* is neutrality …" **** Sarah: James-This will come up again in the Vism thread. Now we're on rupa khandha. With patience and encouragement to Larry and Nina, we'll get to sankhara khandha and all mental states -- which weren't discussed under vedana and sanna khandha -- will come up for analysis;-) James: If you don't mind, I want to discuss some of these items now. This belief you raise of `mini-meditations' during everyday experience, fueled by panna (wisdom), needs to be addressed (Anyway, Howard is doing quite well in raising the appropriate questions about the rupa theories). The above definitions continue to use the term `neutrality' in regards to equanimity and I don't think that is correct. To quote Santaka Sutta: ""There are, Ananda, three kinds of feelings: pleasant, painful and neutral. Through the origin of sense-impression there is origin of feelings; through the cessation of sense-impression there is cessation of feelings. It is the noble eightfold path that is the way leading to the cessation of feelings, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-015.html So you see Sarah, neutrality is a feeling and the goal of the Buddhist path is develop the cessation of feeling. This is defined as `equanimity' and is the absence of feeling (as Nina appropriately defines it in her book); it cannot be defined as a `neutral' feeling, as done by the Vism, because that is still a feeling. The Vism has it wrong I believe. Also, it cannot occur during pleasant feelings because those are also feelings. So, your theory that `Right Concentration' can occur in the midst of everyday mind states and occur during various feelings is incorrect. Allow me to quote another sutta: "Among whatever qualities there may be, fabricated or unfabricated, the quality of dispassion -- the subduing of intoxication, the elimination of thirst, the uprooting of attachment, the breaking of the round, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, the realization of Unbinding -- is considered supreme. Those who have confidence in the quality of dispassion have confidence in what is supreme; and for those with confidence in the supreme, supreme is the result." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/iti3.html#90 And another: ""The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Release... Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present...Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... Conviction... Stress... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... Fabrications... Fabrications have their prerequisite, I tell you. They are not without a prerequisite. And what is their prerequisite? Ignorance." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-023.html Sarah: Good points. I'm sure if you ask KenO or RobM, for example, they'll gladly indicate texts or charts about the arising of equanimity, joy and so on. Vism 1V, 156f also gives details on various uses of equanimity (tatramajjhattataa) "Equanimity is of ten kinds; six factored equanimity, equanimity as a divine abiding, equanimity as an enlightenment factor, equanimity of energy, equanimity about formations, equanimity as a feeling, equanimity about insight, equanimity as a specific neutrality, equanimity of jhana, and equanimity of purification.' Plenty of detail and plenty of scope for misunderstanding on usage – quite possible here. James: You can say that again! For those who have an emotional need for excessive detail, they may appreciate this type of description. I don't have that need so I see it as overkill and confusing. Metta, Sarah ==== Metta, James 28435 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:24am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Ken H, Sorry I didn't respond to your original post but I am finding it difficult to keep up with the number of posts to me. I still owe posts to Sukin, Dan, Nina, and some Star Kids! ;-). I don't respond to some posts because I know that it will grow beyond my capability, and usefulness, to reply. I want to reply to one small statment you make here, which summarizes your position I believe: > Howard:> by which I mean the Buddha's path of practice, a > conventional process, volitionally tread (as opposed to a > momentary arising of factors). > ---------- > Ken H: Never!!!! :-) It is always a momentary arising of > factors (phenomena). There is never anything but > momentary phenomena -- apart from nibbana, the object of > the path. As I have told others, and I will continue to say, the Eightfold path is not a description of momentarily arising mind states, it is a fabricated, planned, and executed path of practice. Allow me to quote the Buddha: ""Among whatever fabricated qualities there may be, the Noble Eightfold Path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration -- is considered supreme. Those who have confidence in the Noble Eightfold Path have confidence in what is supreme; and for those with confidence in the supreme, supreme is the result…" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/iti3.html#90 These qualities of the Eightfold Path are fabricated, they are created in the mundane world, they do not arise spontaneously because then they would be considered unfabricated. This is a fabricated path of practice which requires confidence to be successful; momentary arising phenomena don't require any confidence to exist, do they? The Noble Eightfold Path is a path of practice and not a description of mind states, wholesome or otherwise. Metta, James 28436 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, Larry: A few more ideas on moha: I called it delusion but perhaps we could classify its experience as having a question or having a wrong view. I would include bewilderment in having a question. Jon: I would say that 'having a question or having a wrong view' about something is not the same as being ignorant of that thing. 'Bewilderment' is a word that could mean any 1 or more of a number of things, depending on the particular circumstance. So I don’t think we can really classify bewilderment as being necessarily 1 or the other (or either). Larry: I've been trying to figure out the connection between the mental formations of greed hatred and delusion and the internal physical sensations (tangible data) that seemingly always accompany them. How about the phenomenon of consciousness produced rupa? I'm looking at the chart on p. 249 in CMA. It looks like this might work, but I'm not sure. When I'm angry, I "feel" angry. When I'm bewildered, I "feel" bewildered. I am understanding this "feeling" as the body consciousness of tangible data. Jon: Let's take embarrassment as an example. When we are embarrassed we may feel flushed in the face and uncomfortable in the body, and there may be bodily movements of a certain kind. As I understand it, these would all be instances of different rupas being conditioned by consciousness (citta). I think Nina mentioned this phenomenon in an earlier reply to you on this thread. So although there is a 'feeling' we associate with 'feeling embarrassed', in fact there are different namas and different rupas arising. Only with developed understanding will these not be taken for something they're not. Larry: Can we say root consciousness (greed, hatred, delusion) produces it? Jon: The co-arising cetasikas will condition the mental feeling in some manner, but not the rupas. Rupas are conditioned by consciousness (citta), whereas the roots of greed, hatred and delusion are mental factors (cetasikas) arising with consciousness. As far as I know, cetasikas are not given as conditioning factors for rupas. Larry: Can we say this feeling is informed, so to speak, by the very subtle cetasikas of greed hatred and delusion and has both a general nature that I can recognize as g, h, or d and also a unique nature that is slightly different every time. Jon: There are just different namas and rupas arising according to conditions. These different dhammas are to be known as they are an not as part of an amalgam of dhammas. Larry: What I'm getting at is the very common experience of bewilderment and recognizing it as such. You don't need to have special wisdom to do this. Other forms of moha are trickier. Jon: But for reasons just given, there is no such reality as the 'common experience of bewilderment'; there is a only a concept of that. Larry: ps: In english "ignorance" can also mean "ignoring" or simply "not knowing". How would you classify these two? Jon: As I understand the description given in the texts, the meaning here is "not knowing", "lack of knowledge", and has nothing to do with the idea of "ignoring". Jon 28437 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Michael I'm sorry you don't feel able to continue on this particular thread, but I'm not sure it had any potential anyway. I believe the most fruitful area for discussion is the words spoken by the Buddha himself, and I don’t think our thread was moving in that direction. Discussing what person A or B has to say about the views held by person X or Y is not conducive in my view to a better understanding of the Buddha-word. If it helps, I don't mind avoiding the terms 'sabhava' and 'paramattha' in our future correspondence. As for 'characteristics', though, I am a little surprised to see that included in your list of things about which people have strong (and wrong) views. As far as I know, 'lakkhana' is a term met frequently in the suttas, especially in the context of the ti-lakkhana of anicca/dukkha/anatta, so I'm not sure exactly what aspect concerns you here, although I know you reject the idea that individual dhammas have a particular distinguishing characteristic (if I have understood you correctly). How do you feel about the idea of anicca/dukkha/anatta as characteristics that are common to all conditioned dhammas? Jon --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon and all, > > Jon: > Michael, I'd be interested to hear your comments on these > descriptions of 'sabhava' and 'paramattha'. > > Michael: > I am sorry but I don’t think it would be profitable to continue the > discussion about paramatha dhammas, sabhava and characteristics. I > can see > that there are very engrossed ideas about those themes among some > members in > this list. When one has such a strong attachment to some kind of > view it can > be very tiring to convince them otherwise. I don’t have the skill, > time, and > patience to do that. My best suggestion for those who view the > Abhidhamma > as metaphysics, considering dhammas as paramatha with sabhava and > own characteristics, but that have an open mind to challenge their > ideas, to > study the Madhyamaka philosophy, in particular the writings of > Nagarjuna. I > am sure that this will only bring benefit over a long time. > > Metta > Michael 28438 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies dear KenO and RobK, Have been following this thread, and understand that Kusala/akusala can only be accummulated during Javana process. This started me thinking about how many uncountable j.p. there are in just one single day and generally much more akusala than kusala. The Manual of Abhidhamma [Narada], states: 'Anusaya - to lie, to sleep; are those that lie dormant in oneself until an opportune moment arises for them to come to the surface as they have not been eradicated. All passions are Anusayas; but these 7 are the strongest. Every worldling, who has reached the topmost jhana plane, when born amongst mankind, may give vent to these evil tendencies as they are latent in him.' These 7 passions are: attachment to sensual pleasures, kamaraganusayo; attachment to existence, bhavaraganusayo; hatred, patighanusayo; pride, mananusayo; false views, ditthanusayo; doubts, vicikicchanusayo; ignorance, avijjanusayo. So presumably, with every akusala javana process we are accummulating more and more of the above. For example, on hearing a sudden, loud noise or burning a finger on the hot stove, we jump in fright, most probably Dosa immediately; or feeling a gentle cool sea breeze on a stinking hot sticky day, lobha immediately - can't stop it happening, can't stop it accumulating. I wrote to Sarah off line a while ago, commenting on my life style for many years prior to re-connecting with her & Jon again 3-4 years ago. Despite having heard the Dhamma from the late Ven. Dhammadharo, whose discussion groups I attended daily for more than one year, and listening to T.A.Sujin, for many months, I suspect it was due to the latent tendencies that lead me to associating with unwise persons, not listening to the true dhamma anymore, therefor not giving it wise attention and so not practicing in accordance with Dhamma. The Vis.XXII 60 talks about 'the latent tendency to greed for sense desires, the l.t. for resentment, for conceit, for false view, uncertainty, greed for becoming and ignorance.' The Vis. I 12;13 states that the abandoning of defilements by cutting off is shown by Understanding; and that prevention of latent tendencies is shown by Understanding. So I guess by developing understanding, we can get to know more about these nasty latent tendencies that presumably are accumulating at an unbelievably fast rate!!!! Yikes!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi RobK > > I have read this before and at that time it was not impt...... 28439 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Azita Javana process is indeed very dangerous, I happen to chance upon this email by Nina written on 6 Sep "In the commentary it is explained that there are three cycles: the cycle of kamma, the cycle of vipaka and the cycle of kilesa. Kilesa motivates again kamma and this produces again vipaka and this conditions again kilesa, and so we go on and on. Thus the three cycles keep turning around in our lives." Hi Robert and Kom Need your help again on vipaka cittas. I know there are kusala and akusala vipaka cittas - due to each kamma resultant. However in jati we only classify them as one jati where as kusala or akusala citta we classify them as two distinct jati. What is the reason it is classify as one jati. kind regards Ken O 28440 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:40am Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Ken H, As I said, even though Paramattha Dhamma are going on their own, there are conventional things. The Buddha existed. The Buddha preached. The Buddha left messages. The Buddha left many teachings. The Buddha passed many codes of conduct or Vinaya. Even though this whole second paragraph contained no Paramattha Dhamma, all are right and every one will accept that these are right. But Paramattha Dhamma are ultimate realities and Arahats always see with their mind-eye as Paramattha Dhamma. They are not practising mindfulness on Paramattha Dhamma. Their mindfulness arises automatically. What they see as Paramattha Dhamma comes from their real realization. So they are not holding concepts that are Paramattha. This can be seen in case of Bhikkhu who knows all Tipitaka. He will know all the details. He will explain all Dhamma. But until he becomes an Arahat, he has not realized Paramattha Dhamma. What he knows are learned wisdom or Sutamaya Nana( taught wisdom ) and possibly Cintamaya Nana ( thought-out wisdom ). Arahats have Bhavanamaya Nana or realization on Dhamma. So they will not mix up Pannatta and Paramattha Dhamma. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > ------------- > Htoo: > Do you really think that this is just conceptual > imitation of Satipatthana? There are many posts coming > regarding the practice. > > ------------- > > I will read them with interest. Perhaps my questions > should wait until then. > > Since learning a little Abhidhamma, I am wary of any > 'Buddhist practice' that seems to require the notion of a > self who can practise. Instead, I think it is purely a > matter of understanding paramattha dhammas. > > ------------- > Htoo: > Did I say ' mindfulness of concepts leads to > mindfulness of Dhamma ' ? But mindfulness of all leads to > mindfulness of dhamma including concepts. > -------------- > > I'll be interested to see what that means. I hope it > doesn't include concentrating on concepts; I've tried > that and it didn't work :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 28441 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > I wrote to Sarah off line a while ago, commenting on my life > style for many years prior to re-connecting with her & Jon again 3- 4 > years ago. Despite having heard the Dhamma from the late Ven. > Dhammadharo, whose discussion groups I attended daily for more than > one year, and listening to T.A.Sujin, for many months, I suspect it > was due to the latent tendencies that lead me to associating with > unwise persons, not listening to the true dhamma anymore, therefor > not giving it wise attention and so not practicing in accordance with > Dhamma. > ======== Dear Azita, Do you remember we spoke about this (not exactly this but along the same lines) more than a year ago in bangkok . Your understanding was still firm as soon as the time was right for you to renew your keen interest. It will be like that in the future too, whether far or near. At times not enough supporting conditions but then when the conditions are fulfilled understanding will have the chance to grow more, just a little.. Robk 28442 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > > > Hi Robert and Kom > > Need your help again on vipaka cittas. I know there are kusala and > akusala vipaka cittas - due to each kamma resultant. However in jati > we only classify them as one jati where as kusala or akusala citta we > classify them as two distinct jati. What is the reason it is > classify as one jati. > > > Good question Ken. I think you have the insight to find the answer yourself; maybe I do a disservice by telling now..;).... ... . Ok, I tell. The vipaka, whether caused by good or bad kamma is without power to further spin the wheel of dependent orgination. It is during the javana moments that akusala and kusala is done..thus there must be understanding of the difference between them. Vipaka is like a spent bullet but javana is like pulling the trigger. RobK 28443 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Jon, Jon: I believe the most fruitful area for discussion is the words spoken by the Buddha himself, and I don’t think our thread was moving in that direction. Michael: Then, to be consistent with your approach, you should also disregard the commentaries to the Canon because those are certainly not ‘words spoken by the Buddha.’ Show me a sutta where the Buddha affirms that the aggregates are paramatha and have sabhava. Those ideas come from the commentaries. And just to clarify my position, I don’t disregard all commentaries to the Canon but only those that fall into one of the extremes of reification or aniquilation. I don’t disregard all the Mahayana teachings either, but only those that fall into the extremes of reification and aniquilation. Nagarjuna teachings don’t fall into any of those extremes but are a true reflection of the spirit of the teachings of the Buddha, as found in the suttas. Jon: As for 'characteristics', though, I am a little surprised to see that included in your list of things about which people have strong (and wrong) views Michael: I probably didn’t express myself correctly. My problem is with stating ‘own’ characteristics. As if the characteristic would be something intrinsic to that thing. This is wrong view because it falls into reification. Characteristics are subject to conditionality as well and therefore cannot be intrinsic. In the conditioned world there is absolutely nothing that is not subject to conditons, and if something is subject to conditions it cannot exist by its own power. Words like paramatha and sabhava do not apply in the conditioned world. Jon: If it helps, I don't mind avoiding the terms 'sabhava' and 'paramattha' in our future correspondence Michael: I don’t mind if someone uses the words. It doesn’t bother me. I just feel sorry for those who are attached to those wrong views. Even if those words are not used, one still can clearly identify the substratum of reification in the arguments used. Metta Michael 28444 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:15am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [KenH] Dear Ken, I like very much your comment: "The Middle Way will never be found by lightening-up on our asceticism or by toning down our indulgence." The Middle Way (a.k.a. the fourth noble truth, the eightfold path) is not an averaging of two extremes. It is in no way asceticism, nor is it in any way hedonism. The focus is shifted from the things done (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the understanding of the state of mind when things are done. Metta, Dan 28445 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:28am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/30/03 4:18:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for your reply. > ---------- > H: >There are several senses to 'the middle way'. One of > these is the Noble Eightfold Path, itself, > > ----------- > > I think we can regard Middle Way and Eight-fold Path as > synonyms (with allowances for the five-fold, mundane, > version). I would say Right Understanding is a third > synonym but you might not see it that way. > > ----------- > H:> by which I mean the Buddha's path of practice, a > conventional process, volitionally tread (as opposed to a > momentary arising of factors). > ---------- > > Never!!!! :-) It is always a momentary arising of > factors (phenomena). There is never anything but > momentary phenomena -- apart from nibbana, the object of > the path. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that every factor of the path, when it is realized, arises at the moment. All actualities arise only at the moment. That includes right view, right resolve, right action (refraining from harmful action and intending and following through with useful action), right speech (refraining from harmful or inappropriate speech and intending and following through with useful speech), right livelihood (choosing against harmful livelihood, choosing useful livelihood, choosing against harmful action in pursuing one's livelihood, choosing useful action in pursuing one's livelihood), right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. All these, when they arise, arise in the moment. But they are all *cultivated* over many moments, and by means of intentional practice. For example, From AN X.99, there is the following, in which all the "abandoning" consists of repeated practice over a period of time: _______________________________________ Having thus gone forth, following the training & way of life of the monks, abandoning the taking of life, he abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He takes only what is given, accepts only what is given, lives not by stealth but by means of a self that has become pure. Abandoning uncelibacy, he lives a celibate life, aloof, refraining from the sexual act that is the villager's way. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world. Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord. Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large. Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal. --------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > H: >This is the primary meaning of the term. It was (and > is) the alternative to doing whatever one wants (simply > indulging oneself), on the one hand, and strict > asceticism, on the other. The Eightfold Path of Practice > is an alternative to these two extremes, and is not a > midpoint between them. It involves neither doing nothing > (and thus sinking) nor engaging in extreme and pointless > deprivation (and thus being swept away). > ----------- > > We agree here, although, instead of "nor engaging in > extreme and pointless deprivation," I would prefer you > had said, "nor doing something." > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no problem with saying "doing something". Only if one thinks that there is some "one" who is doing something, some agent of action, is there a problem. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------- > H: >It is a doing, but a very subtle and precise doing. > ----------- > > Now we disagree. What you call 'a very subtle and precise > doing,' is still one of the extremes. The Middle Way will > never be found by lightening-up on our asceticism or by > toning down our indulgence. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: You misread me. I am not saying that Buddhist practice consists of merely avoiding extremes. I am saying that it is a specific and precise path of cultivation, and that path, itself, is subtle and avoids all extremes. ----------------------------------------------------- > > I don't think it matters whether we live in a remote > forest, eating fallen berries and wearing picked-up rags > -- as have some ariyan disciples -- or, if we live in a > castle -- as, also, some ariyan disciples have done. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nor do I. -------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > H: >Another sense is that of the philosophical middle > replacing the extremes of eternalism-substantialism and > annihilationism-nihilism by the emptiness-conditionality > of dependent origination. This philosophical middle way > is also not a compromise and not an amalgam, but > something else entirely, and compared to the two > extremes, it is extremely subtle. The "emptiness view" > of dependent origination is, indeed, a middle-way view; > it is Right View, and it is not a combination of or > compromise between wrong views. > --------------- > > Now you're talking! Here, there is no hint of a self who > is 'doing' or 'not doing.' This explanation -- of nama > and rupa -- is our intellectual understanding of the > Middle Way. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: There'so hint of self in talk of "doing" or "not doing" unless one's own mind presumes a self who does or refrains from doing. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Even though I am glad we agree, I am suspicious of that > word 'emptiness.' Can we replace it with 'anatta?' > 'Emptiness' might be misconstrued as, 'no-sabhava.' > :-) > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I take 'emptiness' (su~n~nata) to be synonymous with impersonality and corelessness (anattata). I also take it to mean lack of *own* being or lack of *own* nature, but not to mean complete lack of being or characteristic. What is missing is exactly atta. Self, core, and own and independent existence are lacking. Anattata is the absence of *independent* existence and nature, but it is not the absence of existence and nature. If it were, it would be nihilism, and that is not the middle way. ------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > H: >But the not halting and not straining of this > Crossing the Flood sutta does not pertain to view only; > it pertains to the entire middle-way path of practice of > the Buddha, the direct path to liberation. > ------------- > > Don't worry: after right view, the rest follows > automatically -- by conditions. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Really! Then the Buddha should have saved himself and millions of followers much time and effort by teaching merely the One-Fold Noble Path!! All the factors are required Ken. They support each other and increase interdependently in cycle after cycle of cultivation. Right View is the alpha and omega of the path in that it is the beginning of it and the culmination of it, but it is far and away not the whole of the path. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ================================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28446 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:28am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [KenH] Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: The focus is shifted from the things done > (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the understanding > of the state of mind when things are done. > > Metta, > > Dan Then how do you explain the Vinaya Pitaka? Metta, James 28447 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:42am Subject: anapanasati 9 b Jon: It is an appropriate form of kusala for development by someone leading the homeless life to its fullest purity. I think if you look carefully at the texts you will find that in many suttas where samatha is being discussed, the real focus of the teaching is on how, for a monk in whom samatha is already highly developed or who has the potential for such, samatha can form the basis for enlightenment (the 'both ways' enlightenment). <> No, not inconsequential, since all kusala supports the development of vipassana; it's just that it's not an absolute prerequisite, if we are talking about the separate development of (mundane) samatha. Not to be confused with the samadhi that arises together with each moment of satipatthana, that is also developed together with the other (path) factors arising at those moments and that culminates in samma-samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path at the moment of supramundane path consciousness (= magga citta, = enlightenment). (Jon to Rob Ep, Sept 16): the Anapanasati Sutta is a teaching on attaining to the superior kind of insight known as 'insight both ways', based on jhana, in this case jhana with breath as object. As such, is directed at those who have already attained jhana with breath as object or who are potentially capable of doing so. For such individuals, breath is already a naturally arising object in their daily life, a daily life that is far different from yours and mine. So, no, I do not read this sutta as *advocating* anything about taking a particular object for insight development... As I have indicated, the sutta was given for the benefit of those (monks) who are already highly adept at attending to the breath (actually, its nimitta) as an object of samatha, and for those persons the sutta is indeed about the discernment of an 'everyday object'. 28448 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Hi Larry, I first take your last two uestions, since these concern our approach to study. op 30-12-2003 01:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I agree it would be difficult to take life as an object of satipatthana.... L What is the difference between the continuity of a non-living rupa such > as what we would call a stick and a living rupa such as what we would > call an insect? There is continuity in both cases but the stick doesn't > eat. Is there a connection between life and nutriment? N: Very good remark, Larry, you help me to consider an important point I tend to forget. What we call dead matter originates from temperature only. So long as there are conditions it is replaced, so it seems that it can last. Rupas in a living body originate from four factors. Different groups conditioned by either kamma, or citta, or heat or nutrition. But, these groups originated from the four factors also support one another. If there would be only groups originating from kamma, but not from food, the body collapses, or it cannot move properly. These groups are interrelated. The Expositor (I, 84) explains that these groups are interlocked. When you want to convey a meaning by gestures, citta condiitons bodily motion, but the rupas originating from the other three factors support it. Otherwise the gestures would not be supple. As I quoted to Howard in connection with nutrition: We read in the ³Guide to Conditional Relations²(U Narada): Thus, the study of all these rupas helps us to have more understanding of the intricacy of conditions. If the right temperature does not produce rupas, we cannot move about in a supple way or do exercises, but, we are stiff. There are many reminders in our study not to cling to my walking, my going, my exercising. L: I wonder if life faculty could even be an object of one of the 5 doors. Is there a category of realities which can only be inferred because of limitations of the sense doors? N: Life faculty is a subtle rupa, it can be known only through the mind-door. It cannot be touched or seen. L:Can we say that not all realities are objects of satipatthana? N: All of them are objects of satipatthana, but, this does not mean that this is so for us now. Rupas that are are hard to penetrate. I find the coarse rupas such as visible object, sound, tangible object already difficult enough. But, it is said in the suttas that should be known. But it is not possible in the beginning. The usefulness of our study: we are further away from the Buddha's time and we need more details. As Rob K quoted before: when we are more deluded (bewildered) more details are necessary. What we learn can sink in and as we learn more, we see that it is most helpful to understand conditions for whatever we do, say, for our activities during the day. Doubt is likely to occur, and bewilderment. The late Ven. Dhammadharo once said: then you can be aware of doubt, doubt, doubt. Or, we could say the same about thinking: be aware of thinking, thinking, thinking. These are objects worthy of study, not to be neglected. People are often wondering what the middle way is: actually, it is one moment of satipatthana without any selection. It is a moment by moment process. Nina. 28449 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/30/03 1:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > What we call dead matter originates from temperature only. ======================== Could you please elaborate on what is meant by 'temperature', Nina. I think it must be something other than just warmth/cold of varying degree. It strikes me as quite an overstatement - and very suprising to chemists, physicists, and even Buddhists who require more than one condition for the arising of a dhamma - that temperature is the only cause of the origination of dead matter. Moreover, "dead matter" isn't a single rupa, is it? There must be much here that I am missing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28450 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty, swimmingpool meditation Hi again, Nina - I have another brief question, Nina, stemming from the same post of yours. In a message dated 12/30/03 1:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: Life faculty is a subtle rupa, it can be known only through the > mind-door. It cannot be touched or seen. > ============================ In what way is it known through the mind door? As a direct object of mano-vi~n~nana (as a paramattha dhamma), or by inference (as a concept)? I find the notion of direct mind-door awareness (and not following upon a sense-door process) perplexing, but very interesting. I know that awareness of the "water element" (i.e. fluidity/cohesion) is said to fall into this category. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28451 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Azita, I like the way you put it, very honest, very true. Nina. op 30-12-2003 14:33 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > So I guess by developing understanding, we can get to know more > about these nasty latent tendencies that presumably are accumulating > at an unbelievably fast rate!!!! Yikes!!! 28452 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood , Vinaya Dear James and Dan, You are both right. I like to combine: satipatthana should never be separated from Vinaya, otherwise it is just following empty rules. The ideal recluse is mindful, develops wisdom, and his observance of Vinaya follows quite naturally, no forcing. He is mindful of what appears through the six doors and not lost in details. Nina. op 30-12-2003 17:28 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > > The focus is shifted from the things done >> (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the > understanding >> of the state of mind when things are done. > 28453 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:46pm Subject: Re: The present moment Hi Howard, Thank you for asking me to clarify. I'm happy to oblige, and hope you won't regret asking :-) There is consciousness, plain undifferentiated sentience. It is the raw material of existence. It is a given. Then there is consciousness of consciousness, awareness. Awareness is not given, it is selected. Even before birth, babies are learning that through action the content of awareness changes. What starts of as seemingly random, cerebral palsy-like action, whether it be movement, or sound making, or changing the focus of the eyes, is learned to be brought under control. Once under control, action can become intentional. And so in a dozen or so months, babies have abstracted out of the soup of undifferentiated consciousness an ever-changing flux of foreground, background awareness. This foreground, background flux is not a property of consciousness, it is a property of awareness, which is a product of selection based on preference and avoidance. Out of this process of selection the "I as intending agent" is born as a concept. And so future activity is based on what one is selecting out of the soup at this moment, and what one is selecting out of the soup is based on what one has intended in the past. Babies sleep 22 hours a day. By the time they are 2 years old they refuse to go to sleep. This limpet state of attachment to awareness kicks in pretty soon, doesn't it :-) Hope this clarifies somewhat. I think the following is relevant. (It's less than 1 Kb, Sarah :-) Samyutta Nikaya I.10 Arañña Sutta Standing to one side, a devata addressed the Blessed One with a verse: Living in the wilderness, staying peaceful, remaining chaste, eating just one meal a day: why are their faces so bright & serene? [The Buddha:] They don't sorrow over the past, don't long for the future. They survive on the present. That's why their faces are bright & serene. From longing for the future, from sorrowing over the past, fools wither away like a green reed cut down. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 12/29/03 6:59:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, > hhofman@t... writes: > > > > > Hi everyone, (that includes me) > > > > There are two types of present moment. > > > > One is the PRESENT as experienced in terms of the PAST. This present > > is not a given, but is constructed entirely on intention. Intention > > is based in the past to maintain it in the future. It is always > > based on self-view. The purpose of this type of present moment is > > indeed to maintain in the future the self-view that lies at it's > > origin. This type of present moment is always accompanied by > > conflict and anxiety, because it requires much effort to maintain > > the illusion of the reality of what is not real. When the conflict > > and anxiety become greater than the craving for the next moment with > > self view, the opportunity has arisen to not intend a future moment > > based on the past, and thus obtain a glimpse of the > > > > Present in terms of itself. This moment is given, unchangeable, > > timeless. It has no content. It is free of anxiety and conflict. > > > > This moment is not intended, but is there when there is no intention. > > > > The Buddha praised a lifestyle in which it was possible to become > > free of intention. The only consequence that follows from ignoring > > his recommendations is the continuation of the past-future life that > > is craved for. Anxiety and conflict and lip service to the Triple > > Gem can go on forever. > > > > May all be free from anxiety and conflict > > > > > > Herman > > > > > ============================ > It *sounds* to me that you may be saying something very important and > quite deep here. Unfortunately for me, it is passing me by without my getting > it. Could you explain a but more? In particular, how exactly are you using the > word 'intention'. It *seems* to me that your meaning is different than the > usual, everyday meaning or at least is different from how I understand the word. > (The word, of course, isn't important, but the meaning is.) > > With metta, > Howard > 28454 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:55am Subject: vitakka and vicára A critic of the translation of the Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' I have been studying the Pali canon in English translation as a means of providing canonical support for my subjective contemplative experiences. Through this study I have come across a few key areas that seem like errors in translation. The Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' are two of those words that seem to be incorrectly translated. I have appended to this post a copy of a definition for the Pali words 'vitakka' and 'vicára' from NYANATILOKA's, Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines. There you will find NYANATILOKA translates 'vitakka' and 'vicára' as "thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained thought')." I do not believe the historic Buddha was intending that one arrive at jhana through an intellectual activity, but one of subjective investigation through meditation, therefore not as a process of thinking and reasoning. I believe it must be an erroneous translation of the Pali words "vitakka-vicára" to say that through an intellectual pursuit, such as "applied and sustained thought" the Buddha said one can arrive at jhana. On the Jhana Support Group, we have found no evidence to support a belief that "intellectual investigation," or "applied and sustained thought," or "thought-conception and discursive thinking" will ever lead anywhere other than ignorance delusion and doubt (dukkha). I believe vitakka and vicára, if they lead to jhana, must be better translated as 'concentration' in which one "turns and returns one's mind," or "applies and reapplies" one's attention to one's meditation object. It is however possible that the Pali language might be inadequate to make the distinction between concentration and discursive thinking. Thank-you very much for your time. If you care to discuss this further, then please respond to me either here, or directly off-list, or on the Jhana Support Group. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks Jhana Support Group A support group for ecstatic contemplatives website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com From the Buddhist Dictionary Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by NYANATILOKA http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vitakka_vicaara.htm vitakka-vicára 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of the mind, the so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are constituents of the 1st absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions. (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, giving it attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to the object. (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving to and fro of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind" (Vis.M. IV). (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its resounding; (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.). 28455 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 0:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The present moment Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/30/03 5:48:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Thank you for asking me to clarify. I'm happy to oblige, and hope > you won't regret asking :-) ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't regret it at all! Far from it. I've read ahead, and I am very impressed! BTW, do you know Michael Olds? I think he might well like what you are writing here very much. Also, I think that you might find some interest in reading some of the psychological Buddhist analysis of Vasubandhu. It seems to me to be related. ------------------------------------------------------- > > There is consciousness, plain undifferentiated sentience. It is the > raw material of existence. It is a given. > > Then there is consciousness of consciousness, awareness. Awareness > is not given, it is selected. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, reflective, selective, and reifying consciousness - a kind of turning the mind back upon itself. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Even before birth, babies are learning that through action the > content of awareness changes. What starts of as seemingly random, > cerebral palsy-like action, whether it be movement, or sound making, > or changing the focus of the eyes, is learned to be brought under > control. Once under control, action can become intentional. > > And so in a dozen or so months, babies have abstracted out of the > soup of undifferentiated consciousness an ever-changing flux of > foreground, background awareness. This foreground, background flux > is not a property of consciousness, it is a property of awareness, > which is a product of selection based on preference and avoidance. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! And I think that Vasubandhu would think it excellent as well. ---------------------------------------------- > Out of this process of selection the "I as intending agent" is born > as a concept. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you should read David Kalupahana's book "The Principles of Buddhist Psychology" (SUNY Press) in which he discusses most particularly the vijnaptimattra (mere-concept) psychology of Vasubandhu. I think it may be like reading your own thoughts put on paper! ------------------------------------------------- > > And so future activity is based on what one is selecting out of the > soup at this moment, and what one is selecting out of the soup is > based on what one has intended in the past. > > Babies sleep 22 hours a day. By the time they are 2 years old they > refuse to go to sleep. This limpet state of attachment to awareness > kicks in pretty soon, doesn't it :-) > > Hope this clarifies somewhat. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: It does. You're an interesting guy, Herman! ----------------------------------------------- > > I think the following is relevant. (It's less than 1 Kb, Sarah :-) > > Samyutta Nikaya I.10 Arañña Sutta > > Standing to one side, a devata addressed the Blessed One with a > verse: > Living in the wilderness, > staying peaceful, remaining chaste, > eating just one meal a day: > why are their faces > so bright &serene? > [The Buddha:] > > They don't sorrow over the past, > don't long for the future. > They survive on the present. > That's why their faces > are bright &serene. > From longing for the future, > from sorrowing over the past, > fools wither away > like a green reed cut down. > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28456 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:12pm Subject: kamma produced, kamma resultant Hi Nina, Can we say my face as an abiding, living reality is kamma produced whether I am aware of it or not? When I become aware of some aspect of my face (hardness, color etc.), is that aspect kamma resultant? When I die and my face becomes part of a corpse, is the abiding reality of that corpse temperature produced? If someone smells that corpse, that smell is kamma resultant? Can we say all the materials of my computer are temperature produced; at the time those materials were fashioned into parts those parts were consciousness produced, but the abiding reality of those materials as parts is temperature produced? If the abiding reality of my computer is temperature produced, can we say whenever I touch my computer that touch creates a new group of materials that is consciousness produced? The touch itself is kamma resultant. If it rains on my computer, whatever effect that has is temperature produced. Larry 28457 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:42pm Subject: Re: The present moment Hi Howard, Thank you for the tips for further reading. I will certainly follow them up. And thank you so much for the encouragement. Much appreciated. All the best Herman 28458 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:49pm Subject: life maintenance Hi Nina, Please correct the following. Life only arises with kamma produced rupa. That is: organic matter (the 8 inseparables, basically food), the 5 sensitivities, male and female faculties, and the heart base. These are what life maintains. However, not all organic matter is kamma produced. It could be produced by temperature, consciousness, or nutriment. Nutriment (food) is the same as organic matter; so nutriment can produce itself. One food can become another food, as with excrement. The sensitivities, sex faculties, life faculty, and heart base are not organic, but they are derived from the 4 great essentials (earth, water, fire, and air). Life doesn't maintain matter produced by temperature, consciousness, or nutriment. Larry 28459 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:52pm Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Dear James, The Vinaya and patimokkha are not the "Middle Way" and are not the focus of the teaching, and Buddhism not a brand of "Asceticism Lite". Patimokkha is not at all a set rules that prescribe a way to develop wisdom. The Vinaya was compiled to build and promote harmonious relations within the community of Bhikkhus and between the Bhikkhus and lay supporters. In the early days of the Buddha's teaching, there was no Vinaya. As the Vinaya became more elaborate, some bhikkhus complained that training under the rules was difficult, and Buddha granted them exemptions from some of the rules. When Buddha was in his last days, he said that the Sangha should feel free to abolish the minor rules. (He never delineated which rules were "minor," and the bhikkhus could not agree amongst themselves which were "minor", so all 227 rules were kept.) Is it your opinion that the patimokkha is an outline of rules that constitute the "Middle Way"? Or constitute a part of the "Middle Way"? Although not the Middle Way and not a part of the eightfold path, the Vinaya has inestimable value in holding together the Sangha and helping preserve the teachings. It has performed remarkably well in this role for the past 2500+ years. I am enormously grateful to Buddha for setting up the Vinaya and to the Sangha for following it and passing down the teachings so admirably for such a long, long time. Dan Highlights of prior discussion: Dan: [With the Middle Way], the focus is shifted from the things done (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the understanding of the state of mind when things are done. James: Then how do you explain the Vinaya Pitaka? 28460 From: Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vitakka and vicára Hi Jeff, I think applied thought and sustained thought as jhana factors are the cognitive effort needed to focus on and stay with the object of meditation, a concept, in the first jhana. Presumably in the higher jhanas the object is just there, without any cognitive effort. It doesn't have much to do with reasoning; but in the first jhana I think there could probably still be little traces of reason, especially for a beginner. This falls away in the second jhana (using the 4-fold scheme). When counting the jhanas as 5, applied thought falls away in the second but sustained thought remains. I think this is just a subtle indication that the object of meditation is beginning to abide on its own. Just a guess. Outside jhana, applied thought and sustained thought could be discursive thinking, non-discursive reasoning and similar stuff. I don't think sustained attention qualifies as applied thought and sustained thought unless there is a concept. When someone throws a ball at you, you grasp it and follow it with your attention, but that doesn't seem like applied thought and sustained thought to me (although it is a method of hypnotism). Actually, I'm not sure about this -- need more research. Larry 28461 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Ken O, I think a clarification of the dhamma taught by anybody is a fantastic idea. Because the Buddha is a samma-sambuddha, he taught us the realities that he had penetrated by panna, the teachings (reflecting the truths) do not conflict. I was reminded that if we think the teachings conflict, either we don't understand it yet, or whoever is teaching it is not teaching what the Buddha had taught. > My understanding is that Vipaka citta are kamma produced hence there > is no way we can decide it is kusala or aksuala for its process of 17 > moments of Vipaka cittas. One can only make a difference in the mind > door, where whereby only kusala citta or akusala cittas could arise > to affect the latent tendecies and accumulations for future vipaka > cittas. This means Chapter 5 is not correct bc vipaka cittas are > vithi citta but not javana-vithi-citta and they cannot accumulate > latent tendecies as explain in Chapter 3. > Do you know that the sense door process comprises of vipaka, kiriya, and kusala/akusala? The sense door process is not purely vipaka, it has: 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) 2) Vinanana (1 moment - vipaka) 3) Sampatichanna (1 moment - vipaka) 4) Santirana (1 moment - vipaka) 5) Votappana (1 moment - kiriya) 6) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) 7) Tatalampana (2 moments - vipaka) Although undiscernable by us, the kusala/akusala vipaka cittas are differentiated by the Abhidhamma. There are 5 possible pairs of the sense door vipaka (in position 2 above): one set kusala vipaka, and the other akusala vipaka. I think they can be differentiated by their characteristics, with highly refined panna. What she meant about the accumulation in the sense door is at position 6 (javana), where tendencies are accumulated, even in the sense door. In the mind door, the process is less complicated (even if it is way more prevalent than the sense doors) 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) 2) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) 3) Tatalampanna (2 moments - vipaka) The tendencies are accumulated only in the position 2 here as well. kom 28462 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken O, In her work Summary of Paramatha Dhamma, TA Sujin explained that the reason why there is only one resultant jati to two causal jati is because vipaka (result) must follow its kamma (cause). Interestingly, although classified as only one jati, all the resultant cittas, among the 89 cittas, are clearly marked as either kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka. This implies that there are differences in characteristics among them, even if the cetasikas co-arising with the kusala and akusala vipaka may be identical. Furthermore, the commentaries (I think) talk about how to tell the differences, and the surest way to tell, is from the differences in the vipaka's characteristics. Clearly, there are differences in the characteristics of the resultant vipakas. My take on this is, the subtlety between the two are probably beyond provability in my case. I probably will never understand fully why the classification by jati of vipaka is of one type. However, classifications are supposed to aid the understanding of the current moment, if it doesn't, well, maybe in the future ;-) kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn2k@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 6:19 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies > > > Need your help again on vipaka cittas. I know there are kusala and > akusala vipaka cittas - due to each kamma resultant. However in jati > we only classify them as one jati where as kusala or akusala citta we > classify them as two distinct jati. What is the reason it is > classify as one jati. 28463 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 0:44am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan, James and everyone, This is the verbatim remainder of the intro to the Vinaya as found on accesstoinsight. "It helps to keep in mind that the name the Buddha gave to the spiritual path he taught was "Dhamma-vinaya" -- the Doctrine (Dhamma) and Discipline (Vinaya) -- suggesting an integrated body of wisdom and ethical training. The Vinaya is thus an indispensible facet and foundation of all the Buddha's teachings, inseparable from the Dhamma, and worthy of study by all followers -- lay and ordained, alike. Lay practitioners will find the Vinaya Pitaka filled with valuable practical lessons concerning human nature, guidance on how to establish and maintain a harmonious community or organization, as well as profound teachings of the Dhamma itself. But its greatest value, perhaps, lies in its power to inspire the layperson to consider the extraordinary possibilities offered by a life of true renunciation, lived in harmony with the Dhamma. " If understanding the state of mind when things are done does not lead to practical change, I'd say there has been no understanding. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear James, > The Vinaya and patimokkha are not the "Middle Way" and are not the > focus of the teaching, and Buddhism not a brand of "Asceticism Lite". > Patimokkha is not at all a set rules that prescribe a way to develop > wisdom. The Vinaya was compiled to build and promote harmonious > relations within the community of Bhikkhus and between the Bhikkhus > and lay supporters. In the early days of the Buddha's teaching, there > was no Vinaya. As the Vinaya became more elaborate, some bhikkhus > complained that training under the rules was difficult, and Buddha > granted them exemptions from some of the rules. When Buddha was in > his last days, he said that the Sangha should feel free to abolish > the minor rules. (He never delineated which rules were "minor," and > the bhikkhus could not agree amongst themselves which were "minor", > so all 227 rules were kept.) > > Is it your opinion that the patimokkha is an outline of rules that > constitute the "Middle Way"? Or constitute a part of the "Middle Way"? > > Although not the Middle Way and not a part of the eightfold path, the > Vinaya has inestimable value in holding together the Sangha and > helping preserve the teachings. It has performed remarkably well in > this role for the past 2500+ years. I am enormously grateful to > Buddha for setting up the Vinaya and to the Sangha for following it > and passing down the teachings so admirably for such a long, long > time. > > Dan > > > Highlights of prior discussion: > > Dan: [With the Middle Way], the focus is shifted from the things done > (follow strict rules or follow sensual desires) to the understanding > of the state of mind when things are done. > > James: Then how do you explain the Vinaya Pitaka? 28464 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 0:51am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi James, As I read the sutta you have quoted, it is perfectly consistent with the momentary nature of conditioned reality. ------------ J: > These qualities of the Eightfold Path are fabricated, they are created in the mundane world, ------------- In the normal, conventional sense of the word, are any mental qualities regarded as 'fabricated?' I think you'll find that, conventionally speaking, only material things are fabricated (constructed, made to actually exist). However, in the reality taught by the Buddha, mental phenomena are just as real as material phenomena. Each nama and rupa has its own, unique essence which has been fabricated by the conditioning (fabricating), actions of other namas and rupas. ------------- J: > they do not arise spontaneously because then they would be considered unfabricated. -------------- Agreed, but it is not contended that nama and rupa arise spontaneously. They arise dependent on conditions and they cease dependent on conditions. The only exception - - nibbana -- doesn't arise or cease at all. ------------ J: > This is a fabricated path of practice which requires confidence to be successful; momentary arising phenomena don't require any confidence to exist, do they? ------------- The wholesome ones do: Saddha (confidence), is a mental phenomenon that arises with all wholesome consciousness. ------------- J: > The Noble Eightfold Path is a path of practice and not a description of mind states, wholesome or otherwise. ------------- Strictly speaking, it is the Dhamma that is a 'description' of mind states, (and physical states). It includes a description of the Noble Eightfold Path as a series of (supramundane) conscious moments leading to the final cessation of suffering. I would be interested to know how many Buddhist schools officially share your view. Don't they all have an Abhidhamma that specifies the momentary, impersonal namas and rupas of reality? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > ...... > > ""Among whatever fabricated qualities there may be, the Noble > Eightfold Path -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right > action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right > concentration -- is considered supreme. Those who have confidence in > the Noble Eightfold Path have confidence in what is supreme; and for > those with confidence in the supreme, supreme is the result…" 28465 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, (Christine & all), --- "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote: > Hello Sarah, what a pleasure to hear back from you. ... S: Likewise. Thank you for continuing this thread and also to Christine for helping out too, knowing I'm rather busy at the moment. .... > %%%%% Jeff: > I prefer to use attentive awareness than clear comprehension, because > comprehension implies cognition, and it is clear to me, the Buddha was > looking for a bare awareness without the cognitive process involved. > Comprehension would imply cognition. .... S:I agree with you that the translation can be misleading. However, I understand ‘sampajaano’ as used throughout the Satipatthana sutta to be referring to wisdom,right understanding, panna. This of course is direct understanding of realities, not thinking about them. Right understanding, right awareness and right concentration etc of course arise together. Quote from commentary to Satipatthana Sutta: >Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. [Tika] "Clearly comprehending" = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. [T] "Rightly" = Correctly [aviparitam]. [T] "Entirely" = By knowing in all ways [sabbakarapajananena]. [T] "Equally" = By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparupari visesavaha-bhavena pavattiya].< ..... Jeff: > Secondly, if you read the Satipatthana Sutta, MN 10 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html > then you will see: > III. The Contemplation of consciousness and mental states (Cognition) > and > IV. The Contemplation of Mental Objects > For me, this practice has definitely been a moment-to-moment awareness > practice of all 7 senses, which includes all actions, words and > thoughts. Through this practice I have been fortunate to arrive at a > pleasant abiding in the here and now. I am quite sure if I was not > mindful in every moment I would not have a pleasant abiding in every > moment. > %%%%%%%%% S: I don’t think you will find a reference to ‘all 7 senses’ anywhere. Actions, thoughts and words are concepts conceptualised in the mind processes. They are only ever ideas and never actualities which can be directly known by panna or wisdom. Clearly understanding the characteristics of namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena) as distinct from concepts is essential in the development of satipatthana.* Otherwise, we may easily be misled into taking for satipatthana what is concentration of general mindfulness as we are used to using the term conventionally for sati-sampajanna (clear comprehension) ..... > %%%%%%% Jeff:Sorry to disagree again. I believe it is awareness of > everything that arrives in the sense domain. ..... S: Please continue to disagree. This is what a discussion is for;-)No need to apologise for your helpful comments. As the commentary to the sutta makes very clear, it is not the kind of awareness that those who have not heard the Buddha’s teachings already have in their daily lives whilst performing various activities that is being referred to. Satipatthana is the very specific direct understanding and awareness of paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) one at a time without any idea of self. Whilst I agree that any reality experienced can be directly known, in the beginning, such knowledge and awareness is bound to be very occasional only. Just a ‘finger-snap’ as we read about in Anguttara Nikaya, Bk of Ones. ..... Jeff: > Also, I am not just > relying on the Sati suttas. I have read the whole if the Digha Nikaya > and much of the Majjhima Nikaya, and if you read the Lohicca Sutta DN > 12 you will clearly see that the historic Buddha trained his students > to recall past lifetimes through clairvoyance, and to develop > Clairaudience and to also develop a mind-made body, which from the > description is clearly astral traveling. Therefore, even though auras > and chakras are not clearly mentioned it is reasonable that these > realities would not have been ignored. > %%%%%%% ..... S: You asked in your follow-up post about the ‘Sati suttas’. Let me make it clear at this point that I read all the suttas (in fact the entire Tipitaka and ancient commentaries) as being descriptions of the development of satipatthana and as being 'sati suttas';-) You raise many points here relating to particular abilities in jhana and what exactly the Buddha instructed in this regard. I’d be very glad to discuss the Lohicca sutta as a separate thread if you wish or the Samannaphala sutta which overlaps for verses 41-97 (and to which B.Bodhi’s translation of the comy is available). I’d just be going slowly for this month. Auras and chakras are concepts representing various realities too. For example, when a person sees or reads another’s aura, in truth only visible object is ever seen and can ever be known. After the experience of what is seen though the eye-sense, the object can be experienced through the mind-door, initially as visible object and then as concept of that object. Of course, different visible objects are being seen all the time and always vary for us. The same applies to the realities experienced through the body-sense which may relate to the chakras. When we think we experience certain energies from our own or others’ bodies at particular locations, in truth it is various combinations of the air, temperature and earth elements being experienced, followed again by concepts about chakras and so on. Whatever skills or abilities anyone may have, there remain only six doorways (or senses) by which they are experienced. This was also true for the Buddha and his great disciples. The truths the Buddha taught as included in the objects of satipatthana as Christine explained, remain as the only realities whatever our particular experiences. I’ll just add these as I understand them from the text: kayanupassana - direct understanding of rupas (primary and derived physical phenomena) vedanupassana - direct understanding of feelings cittanupassana - direct understanding of moments of consciousness such as seeing, hearing or thinking dhammanupassana - direct understanding of mental factors accompanying cittas as well as namas and rupas already specified and included in the 5 khandhas etc ..... > %%%%%%%% Jeff: > Well, I think Sarah, you are missing one point wisdom depends on being > purified by jhana, not the other way around. > %%%%%%%% ..... S: We’ve recently started looking at the Samyutta Nikaya and will be slowly working through the suttas. I hope you can join in. At the moment we’re looking at the first section, Devatasamyutta and one sutta being discussed is SN 1:46 . We read: "'The straight way' that path is called, and 'fearless' is its destination. The chariot is called 'unrattling', Fitted with wheels of wholesome states. "The sense of shame is its leaning board, Mindfulness its upholstery; I call the Dhamma the charioteer, With right view running out in front. [n.101] "One who has such a vehicle - Whether a woman or a man - Has, by means of this vehicle, Drawn close to Nibbaana." [n.102] Christine wrote (after looking at the notes from the commentary as given by B.Bodhi): C: >Interesting - I would have thought that Samatha and the Jhanas might have figured here, but it is Vipassanaa. "right view running out in front" is vipassanaa-sammaaditthi. "For just as the king's servants first clear the path before the king comes out, so the right view of insight clears the way by contemplating the aggregates, etc., as impermanent etc., and then the right view of the path (magga-sammaa-ditthi) arises fully understanding the round of existence."< ..... From section on the Aggregates: >.....”This is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and >thus is the disappearance of consciousness.” > %%%%%% Jeff: > Unfortunately I do not accept the translation of vinnana as > Consciousness, especially in this case. If we do as the above quote > suggests, then we come to the absurd conclusion that we ultimately > seek an conscious state in nibbana. ..... S: Perhaps we can just use vinnana or citta as you object to consciousness. That’s fine. However, I don’t follow your conclusion here. cittas (or vinnana) arise and fall like all other conditioned realities. They have characteristics of seeing, hearing and so on which can be directly known and which are quite distinct from the objects experienced by them such as visible object, sound and so on. Only by directly understanding all these conditioned dhammas repeatedly can higher insights be realized and eventually the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. Perhaps you can elaborate further on your comment and conclusion. I have an idea there’s an important point you’re raising. ..... Jeff: >This of course is absurd, because > we have been practicing awareness training exercises in Sati. > Therefore why would we assume we go to all of the trouble of > developing awareness if ultimately we are going to end up unconscious? > If that were true we might as well go to sleep or commit suicide, and > get it over with quickly. .... S: Oh, I understand a little more, I think. Nibbana is experienced by the eightfold path factors, right understanding and so on. The lokuttara (supramundane) cittas experience or ‘are conscious’ of the object, nibbana, in this case. At the end of the arahant’s life, at parinibbana, there are no more conditions for further conscious experiencing of anything. No conditions for rebirth or continuation in samsara. Of course, this is very different from going to sleep or dying as usual. Also, no self to go to any trouble either;-) .... J: > It was a pleasure discussing the dhamma with you. .... S: Likewise, Jeff. You raise many interesting points and I hope we can continue this useful discussion. Metta, Sarah ===== * "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Commentary continued on "Here, Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body..." In this body, apart from the above mentioned collection, there is seen no body, man, woman or anything else. Beings engender wrong belief, in many ways, in the bare groups of things mentioned above. Therefore the men of old said: What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free. [Tika] "What he sees" = What man or woman he sees. Why, is there no seeing of man or a woman with the eye? There is. "I see a woman," "I see a man." -- these statements refer to what he sees by way of ordinary perception. That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [rupayatana] in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form [viparita gahavasena miccha parikappita rupatta]. [T] Or the meaning is: the absence of perception which is called the seeing of primary and derived materiality, beginning with things such as the hair of the head, owing to non-cognizability of the collective nature of an object like a man or woman by eye-consciousness [kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam ditthi na hoti acakkhuviññana viññeyyatta]. [T] "What is seen that he does not properly see" = He does not see, according to reality by the eye of wisdom, the sense-basis which exists, the collection of primary and derived materiality beginning with hair of the head and the like [yam rupayatanam kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam dittham tam pañña-cakkhuna bhutato na passati]. [T] "Not seeing properly he is shackled" = Not seeing this body as it actually is, with the eye of wisdom, he thinks: "This is mine, this am I, this is my self," and is bound with the fetter of defilement [imam attabhavam yathabhutam paññacakkhuna apassanto etam mama esohamasmi eso me attati kilesa bandhanena bajjhati]. ***************************************** 28466 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint ..Continuation of Pannatta Dear Htoo (Michael & Carl), Your post to Carl on pannatti (concepts) was very detailed and useful and can be used as a reference article to return to. You wrote: > When we are saying Pannatta, actually we are speaking about ultimate > realities. In the ultimate sense there are only Citta, Cetasika, Rupa > and Nibbana. > > Pannatta is not an ultimate realities. But no one will say it is > wrong to say this is a tree and so on. Because it is conventionally > true and very true. .... As you suggest, there has to be the clear distinction between concepts and ultimate realities. It may be, as Michael is discussing with Jon, that the term ‘paramattha dhammas’ (ultimate realities) is not used in the suttas, but definitely the meaning is there throughout as I just discussed in my post to Jeff. Often, without the Abhidhamma and commentaries, the entire meaning can be lost as we’re seeing in the SN thread. Michael, I’d be grateful, in this regard, if you’d also take a look at this old post of mine on this subject and in particular at Robert Eddison’s comments I requote in it: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9249.html Any further feedback appreciated. Htoo, you mentioned to Ken H that ‘there are conventional things’. I’d like to clarify that we *think* there are conventional things. In truth they don’t exist except in our imaginations. When you also discuss how arahants ‘see...paramattha dhammas’, I’d also like to add that in fact paramattha dhammas are those phenomena that make up our lives with or without any knowledge of them and in fact right understanding has to begin to directly know them now from the very beginning (theoretically and then directly) in order for there to be any insight at all (vipassana ). In other words, it’s not a matter of no knowledge and then full knowledge of paramattha dhammas for the arahant. The practice has to begin and continue rightly, being aware and understanding namas and rupas without any wrong selection or focussing with an idea of self. We begin to learn how there is no distinction between what we learn in the Abhidhamma and practice or satipatthana as taught by the Buddha. I look forward to following your continued discussion with Ken H. I think it’s most helpful for everyone and you’re both raising important points. Thank you for encouraging Ken H and for helping to shake him out of his post-Xmas blues for us;-) ;-) Thank you again for all your contributions. Metta, Sarah ====== 28467 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:58am Subject: Basic Theravada Buddhism Course Dear Group, The Basic Buddhism Course No. 9, designed for those who are interested to learn Theravada Buddhism, starts in January, 2004 and will run for 6 months. The Course Registrants receive weekly lectures by EMail as an option. The Lecturer list includes monks mainly from UK, USA and Myanmar and some lay persons. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BuddhismBeginners9/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28468 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan and James IMHO Vinaya to me is definitely part of the middle way. From the Vissudd <> One of the three abstinences, Right Action falls inside the Vinaya hence we cannot say Vinaya is not part of the middle way. Likewise if we say Vinaya is not part of the Middle way so does Abdhidhamma bc they are part of three Baskets. If Vinaya is not impt to the middle path, Buddha will might as well say one noble footpath (that is right understanding) and why bother saying the next seven. However I like to qualify that without right understanding one cannot established the correct way of the path as right understanding is the forerunner (I think there is one sutta about it) and pivotal to enlightmentment Again in Visudd << (the reason) that for (the state of) Arahatship by understanding. And the Arahant is called "perfected in understanding".>> The 8NP is not fabricated, it already exist, an ancient path (Howard I like your sutta quote given to me :-) Cheers! ) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-065.html <> kind regards Ken O 28469 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi James, S: Thanks for all your good wishes. I’m having lots of fun with my brother and niece and luckily we’re having wonderful weather which is good for hikes and sea-swims. Lots of laughter and attachment and opportunities for mini-meditations;-). This morning, I took my brother to see Dr Ma (our acupuncturist). My brother has no sense of smell and limited sense of taste following nose problems and surgery. Dr Ma advised him to give up beer, so that was pretty successful;-) Some big hikes planned over the next few days. I have an afternoon off today - I think they’ve decided I’m more trouble than help on the shopping excursions;-) ..... --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: If you don't mind, I want to discuss some of these items now. > This belief you raise of `mini-meditations' during everyday > experience, fueled by panna (wisdom), needs to be addressed (Anyway, > Howard is doing quite well in raising the appropriate questions about > the rupa theories). The above definitions continue to use the > term `neutrality' in regards to equanimity and I don't think that is > correct. .... S:Of course I don’t mind. Delighted! Neutrality in the sense of impartiality. For example, whilst teaching, there can be kindness, friendliness and generosity. When there is even-handedness or equanimity with the kusala states, there’s impartiality or neutrality. If we think about friends here or at work or think about people in Iraq, is there impartiality, detachment and metta or partiality and attachment for some and aversion to others? We can use any words we find more helpful, but the mental states have their own characteristics which can be known directly. ..... J: > So you see Sarah, neutrality is a feeling and the goal of the > Buddhist path is develop the cessation of feeling. .... S:As I discussed before, we shouldn’t confuse the wholesome state of upekkha or equanimity which arises with each kusala citta (wholesome consciousness) with neutral feeling which can arise with wholesome or unwholesme cittas. I wouldn’t describe the Buddhist path as you do. I would say the sutta describes how the eventual eradication of all kilesa (defilements) leads to the final cessation of the khandhas at parinibbana due to the cutting off of the cause for further continuation. ..... J:>This is defined > as `equanimity' and is the absence of feeling (as Nina appropriately > defines it in her book); it cannot be defined as a `neutral' feeling, > as done by the Vism, because that is still a feeling. The Vism has > it wrong I believe. .... S: As I mentioned before, I think you’re confusing equanimity (upekkha or tatramajjhattata) with indifferent or neutral feeling (upekkha vedana) .... J: >Also, it cannot occur during pleasant feelings > because those are also feelings. So, your theory that `Right > Concentration' can occur in the midst of everyday mind states and > occur during various feelings is incorrect. .... S:Vedana or feeling is one of the ‘universal’ mental factors. This means there is a feeling (pleasant, unpleasant or neutral) with every citta (consciousness). Concentration also arises as a ‘universal’ mental factor. This means that concentration and feeling always co-arise. Perhaps I misunderstand you. Thank you for the suttas which point out the importance of dispassion and disenchantment or detachment. Alobha (detachment) is another mental factor which arises with all kusala cittas. ..... > James: You can say that again! For those who have an emotional need > for excessive detail, they may appreciate this type of description. > I don't have that need so I see it as overkill and confusing. .... S:LOL! I must be one of those with these emotionally needy types;-) Actually, I think that these days you have a pretty good open-minded approach and all your careful consideration and questioning and reference to suttas as you gave in this post is very helpful for me. Glad to be ‘All Shook UP’;-) Metta, Happy New Year to you and all members. Sarah p.s I think that others kindly took over the ‘ego’ thread baton for me. And I agree it would be hard for you to find anyone to pass your many batons to, James. Pls take that as a compliment as intended;-) ;-) ========================== 28470 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta, Co info. Hi Nina, Many thanks for all the extra detail you're adding and especially on the key words which is essential imho to understanding these suttas. You also add some extra commentary detail which BB hasn't included which helps a lot. Please add to the discussions and elaborations whenever you have free time (!!). Thanks also for telling me the Tipitaka website with the Abhidhamma Pali texts is back on line. Am I right in thinking we need another 'key' now? It seems different. (I just had a rushed look). Metta, Sarah --- nina van gorkom wrote: > just some more info from the Co. > Key words: > the holy life: brahmacaariya: development of the eightfold Path. > Meditation subject, kammathaana: stands for med. of calm (samatha) and > for > vipassana, satipatthana. > derived materiality (upada rupa): refers here to all material phenomena > of > the body, except the four great elements (earth, etc., see thread with > Larry). <.....> 28471 From: ashkenn2k Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael; > Michael: I probably didn't express myself correctly. My problem is with stating `own' characteristics. As if the characteristic would be something intrinsic to that thing. This is wrong view because it falls into reification. Characteristics are subject to conditionality as well and therefore cannot be intrinsic. In the conditioned world there is absolutely nothing that is not subject to conditons, and if something is subject to conditions it cannot exist by its own power. Words like paramatha and sabhava do not apply in the conditioned world. k: Nothing in this world arise by its own power, or without caused. The other time when I give you an example of fire. Fire does not exist without a cause and the characterisitic of fire being hot does not exist without the fire. Can we deny that the characteristic of fire (real not artificial ones created by special effects) that is hot is the same be it what kind of materials is used to condition it. Can we say that the clinging of food is different from the of clinging of drinks. And without clinging the characterisitc of clinging will not arise just like without fire, the characteristic of fire(hot) will not arise. So can we say that the characteristic of clinging of food is different from the clinging of drinks. Can we also say that without conditions, clinging will arise on its own. Likewise can we say that the characteristic of clinging arise on its own without cliniging. The other day I have quoted, "it is its mere occurrence in accordance with conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own particular nature' (sabhava-dhamma)". This is the meaning of sabhava and not otherwise. So far I have been very consistent with my answer, now it is your term to prove to me in any kind of example or description or anyway to me how does this characterisitcs that make a dhamma distinct (which is sabhava), is without cause, arise by its own power. Give me a prove to believe in what you say. Kind regards Ken O 28472 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flying the banner (Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders) Hi Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, and all, > > Thanks for the quotes. They do seem to be looking at conceit from > the 'bragging about achievements" perspective. Maybe I misunderstood > previously when I thought even talking about personal events and > tragedies was a form of this. I'm not sure how talking about ones > troubles could be called 'self-advertisement' - unless, maybe, > because one is really saying "look at poor me!- I'm the important > one, my suffering is important because ... well, because its ME that > it's happening too!" ..... Exactly!Me Me Me.... in terms of flying the banner, whether it’s the bragging or ‘poor me’ variety, I don’t think there’s much to choose between them;-( Let me add a few examples of the latter: “I’m so poor” “I can’t join the others, I’m feeling so rotten” “I live on my own” or “I don’t have spiritual friends” “I have to take care of my husband, children, mother....” “I have to work to pay the bills” “I don’t have a job.....” ..... C: > Should we never mention problems then? .... The point, I think, is that any of these comments or sentiments can be said or thought with or without mana and flying of the banner. Only panna can know when it is: “That mind which desires the banner is said to be desirous of the banner (i.e. , self-advertisement).” At these moments of finding oneself important, there’s no metta( friendliness) or mudita (sympathetic joy) or gladness in others’ good fortune. In fact, mana is the opposite of metta and we can begin to see why the brahma viharas always have others rather than oneself as object. (And no, others do not directly experience our metta except by way of vipaka cittas if there is seeing or hearing of pleasant rupas conditioned by ‘our’ kusala cittas. Someone in Afghanistand or Iraq cannot benefit from such metta unless it’s from some deed or action which brings them a result such as food and so on. Not from zapped metta;-)) ..... S: >How then does a person obtain > comfort and support? .... Results of good kamma and other conditions. No rules about asking for help or not. My mother has some back trouble and I just suggested to her that her neighbours would prefer to be told and to help bring in the logs for the fire than to have her suffer in silence and need more help later. One can speak out with consideration too;-) There can be mana and other unwholesome states either way, I think. .... C: >Not supposed to need it? Just hope someone > notices or is telepathic? I'd be out of a job! .... ;-) Just develop panna. This is the way to help ourselves and others better and to know what is most useful of all. The kilesa are going to arise repeatedly by conditions anyway. Gradually they can be seen for what they are. ***** In your other post, you wrote: C: > Telling the Story of hurt and unfairness was > just 'flying a flag' drawing attention to oneself, and what about the > present moment? I think they said it more gently than this. :-) Hope > I haven't got this terribly mixed up. ... ..... I don’t think you have it mixed up at all. “Why are the natives, dogs, women, nuns, Iraqis......treated so unfairly?” “Why isn’t the school, hospital, government.......run efficiently?” “Why doesn’t she/he look after the children, spouse, house.......” Raising the banner.....so very, very common and this has helped me consider more. I could write another list of my own examples just from yesterday, such as these with regard to my niece: “I wouldn’t let her snack at any time” “I’d just say that on holiday we’re making an early start....” “I’d have told her to bring a hat and something warm....” “white’s impractical on a holiday like this..” “Too much orange juice isn’t good..” Note: when it comes to mana, the implication may be quite true in that we might be able to run the country better, take better care of the children/dogs and so on. The texts make this quite clear. But, whether or not the implication is correct, the mana is still there ready show our self-importance. Metta and thanks for helping me to consider more. Happy New Year! Sarah ====== 28473 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:17am Subject: Re: vitakka and vicára Dear Jeff, What a good question that you made. Yes this matter need to be clarified. That translation as thoughts are not enough for Vitakka and Vicara. But when Cetasikas are studied in detail this matter will become clear. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@a... wrote: > A critic of the translation of the Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' > > I have been studying the Pali canon in English translation as a means of > providing canonical support for my subjective contemplative experiences. Through > this study I have come across a few key areas that seem like errors in > translation. The Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' are two of those words that seem > to be incorrectly translated. I have appended to this post a copy of a > definition for the Pali words 'vitakka' and 'vicára' from NYANATILOKA's, Manual of > Buddhist Terms and Doctrines. > > There you will find NYANATILOKA translates 'vitakka' and 'vicára' as > "thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained thought')." > I do not believe the historic Buddha was intending that one arrive at jhana > through an intellectual activity, but one of subjective investigation through > meditation, therefore not as a process of thinking and reasoning. > > I believe it must be an erroneous translation of the Pali words > "vitakka-vicára" to say that through an intellectual pursuit, such as "applied and > sustained thought" the Buddha said one can arrive at jhana. On the Jhana Support > Group, we have found no evidence to support a belief that "intellectual > investigation," or "applied and sustained thought," or "thought- conception and > discursive thinking" will ever lead anywhere other than ignorance delusion and doubt > (dukkha). > > I believe vitakka and vicára, if they lead to jhana, must be better > translated as 'concentration' in which one "turns and returns one's mind," or "applies > and reapplies" one's attention to one's meditation object. It is however > possible that the Pali language might be inadequate to make the distinction > between concentration and discursive thinking. > > Thank-you very much for your time. If you care to discuss this further, > then please respond to me either here, or directly off-list, or on the Jhana > Support Group. > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks > > Jhana Support Group > A support group for ecstatic contemplatives > website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ > Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > From the Buddhist Dictionary > Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, > by NYANATILOKA > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vitakka_vicaara.htm > > vitakka-vicára > > 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and sustained > thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of the mind, the > so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are constituents of the 1st > absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions. > > (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought, giving it > attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness to the > object. > > (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving to and fro > of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind" (Vis.M. IV). > > (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its resounding; > (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.). 28474 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:01am Subject: Vitakka And Vicara Dear Dhamma Friends, In Jhana practice or Vipassana practice, Vitakka and Vicara play a major role as good Cetasikas. Both Vitakka and Vicara are Cetasikas. They are ultimate realities. They have their own essence. Their conventional translations so far has not been enough for full understanding for those who are not engaged yet in the practice of Jhana or Vipassana. Both Vitakka and Vicara in isolation are not thought but they are both mental factors or mental conditioners or mind conditioners. Presence or absence of them makes Citta totally different. They are not thought. They are not simply thought. 1. Vitakka Vitakka works as an effort-producer but not as an effort-sustainer. Effort-sustension is the function of Viriya. Vitakka delibrately put the mind ( Citta and other Cetasikas along with himself ) on to the object or Arammana. Let's assume there is a table and a ball. The table is object or Arammana. The ball is the mind. The ball is off the table . Vitakka puts the ball on to the table so that the ball is being on the table. So the ball is in touch with the table. That finishes. Another man picks up another ball and puts it on to the table so that the ball is being on the table. Another man is another Vitakka. Another ball is another Citta or mind ( Cetasikas are included ). Table may be the same table or another table depending on the situations. The man who puts the ball on to the table is Vitakka. The ball is Citta. The table is object or Arammana. Vitakka delibrately takes the object. It is translated as initial application. Application means apply to the object. Here ' initial ' may be confusing. Another example is three men on a boat. At the front sits a chief rower. At the back sits a chief steerer. In between sits the organizer or the leader. The rower makes an effort to row to move the boat. He is Vitakka. He applies his effort to the object. As Vitakka is rowing the boat will be moving but if there is no control the boat may reach anywhere aimlessly. The middle man is urging the Vitakka to row to move the boat. He is Cetana Cetasika. He is the main committer of all actions and Cetana is sometimes assumed as Sankhara. At the back sits a steerer. He is Manasikara Cetasika. He makes a proper direction. If he directs to the south, the boat will move to the south however hard Vitakka is rowing. If he directs to the north, the boat will move to the north. ' Yoniso Manasikara ' means making attention in a proper way or directing to the proper way. 2. Vicara Vicara is another Cetasika. The Buddha preached these two as separate Dhamma as they each have their own characteristic. Vicara is a reality. It is a Cetasika. It has the characteristic that is totally different from Vitakka. A man picks up a ball and puts it on to a table as above example. Another man rolls the ball about and around on the table so that the ball is not off the table and at the same time the ball touches all the surface of the table. Another man picks up another ball and puts it on to the same table or on to another table depending on the context. Another man( another Vicara ) rolls the ball picked by the first man ( Vitakka ) about and around on the table so that the ball is not off the table and at the same time that ball touches all the surface of the table. Vicara sustains Citta in contact with the object. Vicara reviews the object or Arammana. Vicara does not depart from the object. It is not off the object. This post is for those whon are practising Jhana but it will also be useful for Vipassana meditators. ' Vitakka' and ' Vicara ' is posted at 'dhammastudygroup' by Jeff Brooks who is the owner of Jhana Support Group ( Jhanas Yahoo Group ). I do hope further adding or discussion on this matter from other members and non-members. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@g... 28475 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:17am Subject: Re:_[dsg]_vitakka_and_vicára Hi Larry & Jeff, You made some good comments. If you have time, I think you'd also find it useful to read more about these mental factors from Nina's book http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas10.html Metta, Sarah p.s I see Htoo has also posted but haven't opened his yet. 28476 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:36am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: Is it your opinion that the patimokkha is an outline of rules that > constitute the "Middle Way"? Or constitute a part of the "Middle Way"? Dan Yes and yes. Metta, James 28477 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:07am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Ken, Ken: As I read the sutta you have quoted, it is perfectly consistent with the momentary nature of conditioned reality. James: People often read what they want to read. The sutta I quoted didn't even mention anything about the `momentary nature of conditioned reality', it described the Eightfold Path. Do you see absolutely everything through `Abhidhamma Shaded' glasses? ;-) Ken: In the normal, conventional sense of the word, are any mental qualities regarded as 'fabricated?' I think you'll find that, conventionally speaking, only material things are fabricated (constructed, made to actually exist). James: No, the Eightfold Path is also fabricated, made to exist. The Buddha said so and it is his teaching. Ken: However, in the reality taught by the Buddha, mental phenomena are just as real as material phenomena. Each nama and rupa has its own, unique essence which has been fabricated by the conditioning (fabricating), actions of other namas and rupas. James: No, this is not a description for reality taught by the Buddha. The Buddha didn't teach the theory of namas and rupas, he taught dependent origination. In dependent origination all dhammas (phenomena) are transient and void of self…and the question of if they `exist' doesn't apply. Ken: Agreed, but it is not contended that nama and rupa arise spontaneously. They arise dependent on conditions and they cease dependent on conditions. The only exception - - nibbana -- doesn't arise or cease at all. James: I don't subscribe to this philosophy. Not only that, I was simply writing about the Eightfold Path and you respond with theories of namas, rupas, and nibbana. Can't you take those glasses off? ;-) Ken: The wholesome ones do: Saddha (confidence), is a mental phenomenon that arises with all wholesome consciousness. James: Again, I don't subscribe to this philosophy. To me, this is gibberish with no real meaning whatsoever. Ken: Strictly speaking, it is the Dhamma that is a 'description' of mind states, (and physical states). It includes a description of the Noble Eightfold Path as a series of (supramundane) conscious moments leading to the final cessation of suffering. James: I don't think so. The Dhamma is a description of a path of practice, specifically the Eightfold Path, and the practitioner will have innumerable consciousness moments, through out the period of practice, which will be both mundane and supramundane. Ken: I would be interested to know how many Buddhist schools officially share your view. Don't they all have an Abhidhamma that specifies the momentary, impersonal namas and rupas of reality? James: Frankly, I don't care how many Buddhist schools have an Abhidhamma. I am only interested in what the Buddha himself taught. Anything that veers too far from what he taught, I am not interested in as a personal belief for myself; however, I don't mind learning such thought as a subject of academic inquiry. Not only that, I thought we were discussing the Eightfold Path? Does everything have to go back to the Abhidhamma? Do you recognize how much this philosophy controls your thought processes? Kind regards, Ken H Metta, James 28478 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22am Subject: anapanasati 9 c anapanasati 9 c Ven. Soma left out a passage which I believe is essential for understanding the goal of anapanasati. It is also a passage translated in the Vis. VIII, 155: This is almost the same as my translation that follows (I saw it later on): apica, yasmaa ida.m kaayaanupassanaaya muddhabhuuta.m sabbabuddhapaccekabuddhabuddhasaavakaana.m visesaadhigama-di.t.thadhammasukhavihaarapada.t.thaana.m aanaapaanassatikamma.t.thaana.m N: And thus also, with regard to the meditation subject of anapanasati which has become the topmost of Body Contemplation, being the proximate cause for abiding in ease here, now (di.t.thadhammasukhavihaara, fruition attainment) for all Buddhas, Silent Buddhas and disciples of the Buddha, itthipurisahatthiassaadisaddasamaakula.m gaamanta.m apariccajitvaa na sukara.m sampaadetu.m, saddaka.n.takattaa jhaanassa. N: this is not easy to undertake when one has not abandoned the border of the village, full of sounds of women, men, elephants, horses etc. agaamake pana ara~n~ne sukara.m yogaavacarena ida.m kamma.t.thaana.m pariggahetvaa aanaapaanacatutthajjhaana.m nibbattetvaa tadeva jhaana.m paadaka.m katvaa sa"nkhaare sammasitvaa aggaphala.m arahatta.m paapu.nitu.m. N: If the meditator does not live in a village but in the forest, it is easy for him, after he has mastered this meditation subject, attained the fourth jhana of anapana sati, and made this jhana the foundation and has thoroughly comprehended conditioned dhammas (sankhare), to fulfill the highets frutuion, the fruition of arahatship; tasmaassa anuruupasenaasana.m dassento bhagavaa ``ara~n~nagato vaa''tiaadimaaha. N: Therefore the Blessed One, pointing out the dwelling suitable for that, said, gone to the forest etc. (As is) Remarks: We see here that this meditation subject is for those who can attain jhana and develop insight even to arahatship. English: And thus also, with regard to the meditation subject of anapanasati which has become the topmost of Body Contemplation, being the proximate cause for abiding in ease here, now (di.t.thadhammasukhavihaara, fruition attainment) for all Buddhas, Silent Buddhas and disciples of the Buddha, N: this is not easy to undertake when one has not abandoned the border of the village, full of sounds of women, men, elephants, horses etc. If the meditator does not live in a village but in the forest, it is easy for him, after he has mastered this meditation subject, attained the fourth jhana of anapana sati, and made this jhana the foundation and has thoroughly comprehended conditioned dhammas (sankhare), to fulfill the highets frutuion, the fruition of arahatship; Therefore the Blessed One, pointing out the dwelling suitable for that, said, gone to the forest etc. (As is) Remarks: We see here that this meditation subject is for those who can attain jhana and develop insight even to arahatship. The End. Nina 28479 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] cetasikas which produce rupas Dear Jon, I enjoyed your dialogue with Larry. This point, below, conditioned me to reflect more and I pulled out some texts. Really enjoying this. op 30-12-2003 14:10 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Jon: The co-arising cetasikas will condition the mental feeling in > some manner, but not the rupas. Rupas are conditioned by > consciousness (citta), whereas the roots of greed, hatred and > delusion are mental factors (cetasikas) arising with consciousness. > As far as I know, cetasikas are not given as conditioning factors for > rupas. N: Nyanaponika Abh. Studies, Appendix 3, the Factors of Absorption. He deals with jhanafactors, and jhana-condition taken also in a wider sense (also akusala), not just absorption in samatha. They have an intensifying influence on the other accompaying cetasikas and the simultaneous corporeal phenomena.< It is their presence that enables a state of consciousness to produce corporeal phenomena> (Co and subco to Khandha Vibhanga). I am inclined to think that citta and cetasika are so closely associated that they cooperate in producing rupas. Those ministers are ever active. I looked at U Narada, Conditional Relations: p. 26: except 14 types of citta (five pairs of sense-cognitions and 4 arupa jhana vipaka-cittas, rebirth-consciousness in the five khandha planes and death-consciousness of arahat), the other citttas can produce rupa. p. 65, jhana-condition: without it one cannot: <1. shoot birds and animals, 2, what and whose form it is, 3. to take one straight step forward correctly, for, if at the beginning the foot was pointed eastwards, it would point southwards in the middle and westwards at the end of the step. Or else, while taking the step forward, the mind would take another object and forget about the step altogether.4. To pronounce one word correctly. This shows how swiftly the mind is distracted and changed...> What pointed reminders for everyday life, even when walking or pronouncing words!!! Nina. 28480 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty,conditions. Hi Howard, thank you (and also Larry!) for your good questions. I may not react to all of them, we have to spend time with my father, stimulating him with music. Here it goes. op 30-12-2003 07:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> N: Kamma is past kamma and is since long fallen away. But life-faculty >> maintains the other rupas in the group originated from kamma. U Narada: > does not relate by the force of production>, thus, it is not the same as the >> way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in >> their respective groups. These rupas produced by them are compared to a >> child with the mother alive, > maintained by physical life-faculty, is compared to the motherless child >> maintained by a wet-nurse.> >> > ============================ H: I understand this to be saying that the kammic cause is long gone, and > so the life force serves in its stead to maintain the kamma-produced rupas. > The following questions occur to me then: > 1) What maintains the life force? N: very good. Vis. text: . And Tiika: It does not need another factor that supports it, it arises together with the rupas to be sustained and performs its function, not at the first moment, but just after. H: 2) The factors of nutrition, heat, and citta that produce other rupas > may not be *long* gone, but they are gone. Gone is gone - length of time is > irrelevant. What serves in the stead of the nutrition, heat, and citta to > maintain these other rupas? N: First more on physical life-faculty. I did not quote all from U.Narada but now I must : p. 64: As we saw, does not relate by the force of production> It is related to the conascent rupas . Explanation: the duration of rupa, compared to the duration of citta, lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, and, when taken into account the three phases of citta (arising, presence and cessation), 51 sub-moments. It performs its function of maintenance only after the first moment, thus when the conascent rupas have just arisen, and it itself has just arisen together with them. We cannot imagine this, think of the shortness of the moment. U Narada: Conditioning factors can be prenascent, conascent and post-nascent to the dhammas they condition. As we saw, ...< it is not the same as the >> way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in >> their respective groups.> This is intricate. See post to Jon about citta. Citta produces rupa at its arising moment. Nutrition and heat do not produce at the moment of their arising, but after that. See below, rupa is then too weak. There is no need for them to have a wet nurse, the producing factors are in fact not gone, they are still present. Nutrition produces and maintains. Factors can function as several types of condition at the same time, such as conascence-condition which is a large group encompassing several types of conditions. Thus, we also have conascence faculty-condition, but this goes for other faculties (but sex-faculty is not faculty-condition, as said before). > 3) More generally, what more is needed for "maintenance" than conditionality? N: See above, three ways of operation of condition. maintenance is one of them. It itself is a condition. op 30-12-2003 07:11 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: You wrote later on: H: I think I have just partly answered this question for myself. I > remember that in Abhidhamma, multiple rupas can co-exist (though at most one > of them > as object of a citta), so the nutrition and heat might not be gone, but could > co-exist with the rupas they produce, and thus no life-force maintenance is > needed. N: yes. H: I suppose that when a prior citta is the cause, then that is when the > namic version of life force comes into play. Would this be the Abhidhammic > response to my question (2)? N: there is more to it. You say: when a prior citta is the cause, but you mean the cause for rupas? Rupa is weak at its first moment and cannot be a condition. For citta, it is the opposite: citta is strong at its first moment and is then able to produce rupas. The namic version of life force is another matter I keep for next time. As Sarah reminds me: we have to think of the purpose of studying details. To conclude: we usually speak too casually about impermanence or shortness of the moment. When learning about fiftyone sub-moments of duration of rupa we can consider how extremely short it must be. Citta is extremely fast and evenso fiftyone sub-moments are extremely fast. We are taught a lesson here, and impermanence may become more meaningful. Learning more about conditions in detail shows evermore that empty phenomena are rolling on. Also the sutta you quoted don't long for the future. > They survive on the present.> will considerably gain in meaning. Nina. 28481 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] life maintenance Hi Larry, op 31-12-2003 04:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Please correct the following. Life only arises with kamma produced rupa. N; yes, but I like to precizise: life-faculty. L: That is: organic matter (the 8 inseparables, basically food), the 5 > sensitivities, male and female faculties, and the heart base. These are > what life maintains. N: the 8 inseparables, basically food, why basically food? I do not see it like that. And also, those eight are incorporated in a nonad, with life-faculty. We better look at nonads, decads, etc. Kamma does not produce pure octads. But I think you mention this at the end. L: However, not all organic matter is kamma produced. > It could be produced by temperature, consciousness, or nutriment. N: organic matter, shall we say: rupas of the body? I stumble over organic, it may cause confusion. What you say is correct. L: Nutriment (food) is the same as organic matter; so nutriment can produce > itself. One food can become another food, as with excrement. N: We should not confuse morsel like food, external food that is taken with that extremely tiny rupa of nutritive essence. When, what we say in conventional language, morsel like food is taken, and it is absorbed in the body, there is a rupa, nutrition or nutritive essence, that is a factor producing other rupas arising in a group. And then, the nutrition present in such a unit can produce in its turn other units with eight rupas. That is why we could be without food for a week. But there are many things I do not understand yet in depth. A good point to discuss in Bgk. The element of heat makes food mature, cooks it, it becomes excrement as we say in conventional language. But we cannot say this is another food produced by food. It is a whole situation, but we know that the Great Elements perform their functions. L: sensitivities, sex faculties, life faculty, and heart base are not > organic, but they are derived from the 4 great essentials (earth, water, > fire, and air). Life doesn't maintain matter produced by temperature, > consciousness, or nutriment. N: correct, except the word organic. I would rather speak about elements. Nina. P.S. some Pali puzzle, I have to look again and may make dots. Nobody in the world to help me. Sorry for the delay. 28482 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg]details, details! Dear James, I take all your remarks in the right sense!!! Also about mini-meditations!!! I want to tell you something. I appreciate your good works as to Devasamyutta, I told Victor about your work, and he said to me that he reads and follows those. People outside still seem to read our messages. Nina. op 30-12-2003 12:55 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > James: You can say that again! For those who have an emotional need > for excessive detail, they may appreciate this type of description. > I don't have that need so I see it as overkill and confusing. 28483 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:29am Subject: old year, new year. Dear All, May all beings be happy, whether it is an old year or a new year. May Panna grow and flourish. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 28484 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:53am Subject: Re: approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Sarah, Sarah: Thanks for all your good wishes. I'm having lots of fun with my brother and niece and luckily we're having wonderful weather which is good for hikes and sea-swims. Lots of laughter and attachment and opportunities for mini-meditations;-). This morning, I took my brother to see Dr Ma (our acupuncturist). My brother has no sense of smell and limited sense of taste following nose problems and surgery. Dr Ma advised him to give up beer, so that was pretty successful;-) James: There is no guarantee he will. If someone was poking needles into me, I would want to humor that person as much as possible! ;-)) Sarah: Some big hikes planned over the next few days. I have an afternoon off today - I think they've decided I'm more trouble than help on the shopping excursions;-) James: From reading about all of your `know-it-all' statements you described to Christine, you probably got on their nerves. ;-) Sarah: Of course I don't mind. Delighted! Neutrality in the sense of impartiality. For example, whilst teaching, there can be kindness, friendliness and generosity. When there is even-handedness or equanimity with the kusala states, there's impartiality or neutrality. If we think about friends here or at work or think about people in Iraq, is there impartiality, detachment and metta or partiality and attachment for some and aversion to others? We can use any words we find more helpful, but the mental states have their own characteristics which can be known directly. James: Well, here we are mixing up terms. I don't see `neutrality' and `impartiality' as being the same thing. Neutrality has the connotation of not caring about a particular stimulus, as deeming it unimportant. Impartiality has the connotation of recognizing a particular stimulus but being unbiased (non-craving) toward it; and is much closer to equanimity. From dictionary.com: Neutrality \Neu*tral"i*ty\, n. [Cf. F. neutralit['e].] 1. The state or quality of being neutral; the condition of being unengaged in contests between others; state of taking no part on either side; indifference. Impartiality \Im*par`ti*al"i*ty\, n. [Cf. F. impartialit['e].] The quality of being impartial; freedom from bias or favoritism; equitableness; fairness; as, impartiality of judgment, of treatment, etc. If you see equanimity as being impartiality, we don't have any argument. The majority of the rest of this post is moot. Sarah: LOL! I must be one of those with these emotionally needy types;-) Actually, I think that these days you have a pretty good open-minded approach and all your careful consideration and questioning and reference to suttas as you gave in this post is very helpful for me. Glad to be `All Shook UP';-) James: I don't think that you are more `emotionally needy' than anyone else. LOL! Until we become enlightened, we all have certain emotional needs. Mine are not the same as yours; that was all I was stating. My approach in this group is better these days because I have learned to better differentiate the emotional impressions I get from others and my own. Didn't really intend to `Shake You Up'! LOL! Metta, Happy New Year to you and all members. Sarah Metta, and Happy New Years to you too and to everyone. I am going to the opera for New Years! It should be fun (and much cheaper in Cairo!;-). p.s I think that others kindly took over the `ego' thread baton for me. And I agree it would be hard for you to find anyone to pass your many batons to, James. Pls take that as a compliment as intended;-) ;- ) James: I don't understand what you mean but I will take it as a compliment. Thank you. 28485 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi, Kom (and Ken O) and all - I think the sense-door and mind-door processes are very interesting - they constitute a very pretty scheme which may be quite true. It's a part of Theravadin commentarial theory that I find very appealing - way more than such things as gender faculties and life faculty, for example, which appear in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. My likes and dislikes aside, however, does anyone have any suspicion as to why the Buddha never taught about the sense-door and mind-door processes? (It is my understanding that it does not appear anywhere in the Tipitaka, but I stand to be corrected.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/31/03 1:47:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, komb@s... writes: > > Hi Ken O, > > I think a clarification of the dhamma taught by anybody is a fantastic idea. > Because the Buddha is a samma-sambuddha, he taught us the realities that he > had penetrated by panna, the teachings (reflecting the truths) do not > conflict. I was reminded that if we think the teachings conflict, either we > don't understand it yet, or whoever is teaching it is not teaching what the > Buddha had taught. > > >My understanding is that Vipaka citta are kamma produced hence there > >is no way we can decide it is kusala or aksuala for its process of 17 > >moments of Vipaka cittas. One can only make a difference in the mind > >door, where whereby only kusala citta or akusala cittas could arise > >to affect the latent tendecies and accumulations for future vipaka > >cittas. This means Chapter 5 is not correct bc vipaka cittas are > >vithi citta but not javana-vithi-citta and they cannot accumulate > >latent tendecies as explain in Chapter 3. > > > > Do you know that the sense door process comprises of vipaka, kiriya, and > kusala/akusala? The sense door process is not purely vipaka, it has: > > 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) > 2) Vinanana (1 moment - vipaka) > 3) Sampatichanna (1 moment - vipaka) > 4) Santirana (1 moment - vipaka) > 5) Votappana (1 moment - kiriya) > 6) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) > 7) Tatalampana (2 moments - vipaka) > > Although undiscernable by us, the kusala/akusala vipaka cittas are > differentiated by the Abhidhamma. There are 5 possible pairs of the sense > door vipaka (in position 2 above): one set kusala vipaka, and the other > akusala vipaka. I think they can be differentiated by their > characteristics, with highly refined panna. > > What she meant about the accumulation in the sense door is at position 6 > (javana), where tendencies are accumulated, even in the sense door. > > In the mind door, the process is less complicated (even if it is way more > prevalent than the sense doors) > > 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) > 2) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) > 3) Tatalampanna (2 moments - vipaka) > > The tendencies are accumulated only in the position 2 here as well. > > kom > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28486 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:13am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] So, how does patimokkha differ from Asceticism Lite? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Dan, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > Is it your opinion that the patimokkha is an outline of rules > that > > constitute the "Middle Way"? Or constitute a part of the "Middle > Way"? > > Dan > > Yes and yes. > > Metta, James 28487 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:50am Subject: Existence [Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Intro Notes)] Hi, James (and Ken, and all) - In a message dated 12/31/03 9:12:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Ken: However, in the reality taught by the Buddha, mental phenomena > are just as real as material phenomena. Each nama and rupa has its > own, unique essence which has been fabricated by the conditioning > (fabricating), actions of other namas and rupas. > > James: No, this is not a description for reality taught by the > Buddha. The Buddha didn't teach the theory of namas and rupas, he > taught dependent origination. In dependent origination all dhammas > (phenomena) are transient and void of self…and the question of if > they `exist' doesn't apply. > ============================= I rather like the following "existence" terminology (leaving nibbana out of consideration for the moment): 1) Does not exist: Ain't no such thing, no how, no way! 2) Exists conventionally only: Is the intended but only so-to-speak existing referent of a well grounded concept, i.e. a concept subsuming many actually existent phenomena that are interrelated in a coherent pattern. 3) Exists dependently: Is a directly observable phenomenon that arises in dependence on conditions. This is the only form of existence that is not imagined, merely conventional, or metaphorical. 4) Exists independently: See (1) As far as nibbana is concerned, it is an absence, and talk of the "existence" of an absence is problematical. But to the extent that such talk is allowed, nibbana is the only unconditioned, and permanent existent. I understand nibbana to be the absence of "things," the absence of independent, separate, self-existent entities, and this makes nibbana an ultimate emptiness. I also realize, however, that this definition of nibbana, as is the case with any definition of nibbana, must be radically inadequate. I view the world of "things" as being what exists but misperceived due to the three poisons. To see reality as it actually is, with ignorance, craving, and aversion held in abeyance - or, eventually, fully uprooted, is to get a glimpse of nibbana. And each glimpse of nibbana leads ever closer to complete liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28488 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Great comments, Herman. H: "The Vinaya is thus an indispensible facet and foundation of all the Buddha's teachings, inseparable from the Dhamma, and worthy of study by all followers -- lay and ordained, alike." [Access to Insight] H: "But its greatest value, perhaps, lies in its power to inspire the layperson to consider the extraordinary possibilities offered by a life of true renunciation, lived in harmony with the Dhamma." [Access to Insight] H: If understanding the state of mind when things are done does not lead to practical change, I'd say there has been no understanding. --> This is well put. Part of the fruit of understanding is that there is a decrease in attachment (alobha and adosa) and an increase in the strength of scruples (hiri and ottappa). That leads to practical change with certainty. I'd agree, then, that "practical change" can be used to gauge progress in understanding: Is the understanding just at the level of Pali words and recitation of doctrinal formulas (in which case it would be practically useless)? In the Brahmajala sutta, Buddha recites a long list (several pages long!) of debased behaviors that he is praised for not engaging in (e.g. taking what is not given, sexual intercourse, slander, sleeping with a quilt stuffed with cotton, earn a living by computation or by administering medicines to cure bodily diseases): "These, bhikkhus, are those trifling and insignificant matters, those minor details of mere moral virtue, that a worldling would refer to when speaking in praise of the Tathagata." These are some of the external, practical results of a highly developed understanding. Purified action comes through deep understanding, but following lists of rules does not lead to understanding. What does Buddha say is really praiseworthy? "There are, bhikkhus, other dhammas, deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, peaceful and sublime, beyond the sphere of reasoning, subtle, comprehensible only to the wise, which the Tathagata, having realized for himself with direct knowledge, propounds to others; and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathagata in accordance with reality would speak. And what are these dhammas?" The remaining 25 or so pages in the sutta explain that "these dhammas" are, basically, "the web of views" that Buddha has freed himself from. As release from the web of views is gradually won, the debased behavior gradually recedes. By contrast, stricter and stricter adherence to a set of rules (whether extreme asceticism, patimokkha, or hedonism's simple law of "do what feels good at the moment") does not lead to release from the web of views. I wish you all the best in the New year! Dan 28489 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] life-faculty,conditions. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/31/03 9:26:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > thank you (and also Larry!) for your good questions. I may not react to all > of them, we have to spend time with my father, stimulating him with music. > Here it goes. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thank you, Nina, for your detailed reply. I hope all goes well with your father. I, of course, don't know what is involved, but this reminds me of the case of someone my wife and I know who sustained severe head trauma a number of years ago resulting in a coma that lasted for many, many weeks. Her husband, as devoted as one could be, played music for her, talked to her, and obtained innumerable vials of fragrances of all sorts to provide olfactory stimulation. His efforts brought her out of the coma, and his continued efforts for years after brought her back to a relatively normal life. Whatever the circumstances of your father may be, I commend you on providing sensory stimulation, and I wish you the very best with this. With metta, Howard > op 30-12-2003 07:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >>N: Kamma is past kamma and is since long fallen away. But life-faculty > >>maintains the other rupas in the group originated from kamma. U Narada: < > It > >>does not relate by the force of production>, thus, it is not the same as > the > >>way the factors of nutrition, heat and citta produce the other rupas in > >>their respective groups. These rupas produced by them are compared to a > >>child with the mother alive, >>maintained by physical life-faculty, is compared to the motherless child > >>maintained by a wet-nurse.> > >> > >============================ > H: I understand this to be saying that the kammic cause is long gone, and > >so the life force serves in its stead to maintain the kamma-produced rupas. > >The following questions occur to me then: > >1) What maintains the life force? > N: very good. Vis. text: occurs itself only through its connexion with the states that occur, > like a pilot>. And Tiika: establishment, > it occurs itself and so on (only through its connexion with the states that > occur).> > It does not need ... > H: I think I have just partly answered this question for myself. I > >remember that in Abhidhamma, multiple rupas can co-exist (though at most > one > >of them > >as object of a citta), so the nutrition and heat might not be gone, but > could > >co-exist with the rupas they produce, and thus no life-force maintenance is > >needed. > N: yes. > H: I suppose that when a prior citta is the cause, then that is when the > >namic version of life force comes into play. Would this be the Abhidhammic > >response to my question (2)? > N: there is more to it. You say: when a prior citta is the cause, but you > mean the cause for rupas? Rupa is weak at its first moment and cannot be a > condition. For citta, it is the opposite: citta is strong at its first > moment and is then able to produce rupas. The namic version of life force is > another matter I keep for next time. > As Sarah reminds me: we have to think of the purpose of studying details. To > conclude: we usually speak too casually about impermanence or shortness of > the moment. When learning about fiftyone sub-moments of duration of rupa we > can consider how extremely short it must be. Citta is extremely fast and > evenso fiftyone sub-moments are extremely fast. We are taught a lesson here, > and impermanence may become more meaningful. Learning more about conditions > in detail shows evermore that empty phenomena are rolling on. Also the sutta > you quoted > > don't long for the future. > >They survive on the present.> > will considerably gain in meaning. > Nina. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28490 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Ken] Hi Ken, The "Middle Way" is Right understanding, Right effort, Right speech, etc. It is not the rule, that makes 8fp "middle", it is the "Right." "Rightness" comes from Understanding, not from brute force following of a rule or list of rules. When the understanding is truly there, the behavior is bound to be right. You quote Vism: "Likewise the reason for the states of stream entry; and once-returner is shown by virtue. For the stream returner is called 'perfected in the kinds of virtue'." I ask whether that stream-entry comes about through strict adherence to rules of virtue, or does the virtue develop naturally as a fruit of understanding? The "Middle Way" is the shifting of the approach from 'adherence-to-rules-and-rituals leads to wisdom' to 'wisdom leads to adherence-to-rules-and-rituals'. [The "Middle Way" also avoids the approach of 'abolition-of-rules leads to fulfillment' and replaces it with 'fulfillment leads to irrelevance-of-rules (because they are followed perfectly)'.] You go on to say: "One of the three abstinences, Right Action falls inside the Vinaya hence we cannot say Vinaya is not part of the middle way." --> Dan: The Patimokkha is more than "Right Action". It is a list of rules that, regardless of their understanding, bhikkhus are expected to follow for the benefit of the sangha, for the benefit of the community at large, and for the preservation of the Dhamma. These mundane expectations are not part of the Middle Way because there is no "Right" prefixed to any of the rules or to the list of rules as a whole. You continue: "Likewise if we say Vinaya is not part of the Middle way so does Abdhidhamma bc they are part of three Baskets. If Vinaya is not impt to the middle path, Buddha will might as well say one noble footpath (that is right understanding) and why bother saying the next seven." --> Dan: Vinaya and "Middle Way" overlap tremendously, but they are not the same and neither is contained in the other. Dan 28491 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Kom (and Ken O) and all - > > I think the sense-door and mind-door processes are very interesting - > they constitute a very pretty scheme which may be quite true. It's a part of > Theravadin commentarial theory that I find very appealing - way more than such > things as gender faculties and life faculty, for example, which appear in the > Abhidhamma Pitaka. My likes and dislikes aside, however, does anyone have any > suspicion as to why the Buddha never taught about the sense-door and mind-door > processes? (It is my understanding that it does not appear anywhere in the > Tipitaka, but I stand to be corrected.) > > ========= Dear Howard. From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: The Buddha said: ""I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment ..." It is truly what the Buddha taught. Robertk 28492 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:49am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello KenO, KenO: it is its mere occurrence in accordance with conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own particular nature' (sabhava-dhamma) Michael: Ken, just reflect about what you wrote. First you say that dhammas arise according to conditions which is fine with me, but then you go on to say that a dhamma also has a ‘particular nature’. Now, either you are thinking about something else and using the words incorrectly or you simply don’t realize the absurdity of what you are saying. Particular nature means something that only that dhamma possesses which is distinct from anything else. Would you agree with this interpretation? Well this is the same as saying it has an essence. And if something has an essence it is impossible that it can be affected by conditions. Metta Michael 28493 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/31/03 11:52:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard. > From the Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: > The Buddha said: ""I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated > birth and > passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of > beings? > On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness > arises. > Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact, > feeling > arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment ..." > > It is truly what the Buddha taught. > Robertk > > ========================== That is a *far* cry from what I mean by the theory of the sense-door and mind-door processes. I'm talking about all the bhavanga cittas, and javana cittas, and registration cittas etc, etc. (Please see the postscript below.) Certainly I'm not questioning the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination or conditionality in general! With metta, Howard P.S. Robert, I'm addressing the following: The Thought Process 1 Atita Bhavanga (Past Bhavanga) 2 Bhavanga Calana (Vibrating Bhavanga) 3 Bhavanga Upaccheda (Arrest Bhavanga) 4 Avajjana (Sense-door consciousness) 5 Panca Viññana (Sense consciousness) 6 Sampaticchana (Receiving consciousness) 7 Santirana (Investigating consciousness) 8 Votthapana (Determining consciousness) 9,10,11,12,13,14,15 JAVANA 16,17 Tadalambana Registering consciousness) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28494 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Ken O and all, Ken, I would suggest the following passage from the discourse "Now, again, lady, what is the noble eightfold path?" "This is the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." "Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?" "The noble eightfold path is fabricated." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's exposition can be helpful: Passage §67 deals with the second criticism -- that desire, etc., are antithetical to the goal -- by showing that these qualities are necessary for anyone who pursues a path, but are automatically abandoned on reaching the goal at the path's end. The image of the path is important here, for it carries important implications. First, the path is not the goal; it is simply the way there, just as the road to the Grand Canyon should not be confused with the Grand Canyon itself. Even though many stretches of the road bear no resemblance to the Grand Canyon, that does not mean that the road does not lead there. Secondly, the path of practice does not cause the goal, it simply leads there, just as neither the road to the Grand Canyon nor the act of walking to the Grand Canyon can cause the Grand Canyon to be. The goal at the end of the Buddhist path is unfabricated, and therefore no amount of desire or effort can bring it into being. Nevertheless, the path to the goal is a fabricated process [§105], and in that process desire, effort, intent, and discrimination all have an important role to play, just as the effort of walking plays a role in arriving at the Grand Canyon. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/2d.html Peace, Victor PS. I would recommend Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's The Wings to Awakening: An Anthology from the Pali Canon http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/wings/index.html To obtain a free printed copy of this book, write to: Dhamma Dana Publications c/o Barre Center For Buddhist Studies 149 Lockwood Road Barre, MA 01005 USA --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Dan and James > > The 8NP is not fabricated, it already exist, an ancient path (Howard > I like your sutta quote given to me :-) Cheers! ) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-065.html > < Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold > path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right > livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. > That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly > Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path.>> > > > kind regards > Ken O 28495 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:42pm Subject: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Dear DSG Cast & Crew I wish you all a Happy New Year and look forward to reading your thoughts and reflections in 2004. Here is one of my favourite passages - a verse spoken by the Buddha as quoted in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta: "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably. Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night- It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has a single excellent night." [Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi ed.] As always, any comments on the relevance of this verse (which appears in quite a number of suttas) would be welcome. I note in particular it refers to insight seeing presently arisen states correctly. With metta to all Andrew 28496 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael and Ken, Please excuse my butting in--Michael, has it occurred to you to think of sabhaava as simply being the difference between what can and can't be the object of satipa.t.thaana? This seems to me both to be the important distinction and to obviate the necessity of fitting these terms into a western philosophical framework. Happy New Year, All, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Beisert" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 8:49 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics > Hello KenO, > > KenO: > it is its mere occurrence in > accordance with conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own > particular nature' (sabhava-dhamma) > > Michael: > Ken, just reflect about what you wrote. First you say that dhammas arise > according to conditions which is fine with me, but then you go on to say > that a dhamma also has a 'particular nature'. Now, either you are thinking > about something else and using the words incorrectly or you simply don't > realize the absurdity of what you are saying. Particular nature means > something that only that dhamma possesses which is distinct from anything > else. Would you agree with this interpretation? Well this is the same as > saying it has an essence. And if something has an essence it is impossible > that it can be affected by conditions. > > Metta > Michael 28497 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Mike, Mike: Please excuse my butting in--Michael, has it occurred to you to think of sabhaava as simply being the difference between what can and can't be the object of satipa.t.thaana? This seems to me both to be the important distinction and to obviate the necessity of fitting these terms into a western philosophical framework. Michael: You are touching another area where I have significantly different opinions from some members of this list. In my view any object experienced by the senses can be object of Satipatthana. It is not the object that matters but the three characteristics of dukha, anicca, anatta which are present in any conditioned object/phenomena. Therefore anything can be used to realize insight. To think that only so called paramatha dhammas are good for insight is an unnecessary limitation. Sariputta was good at that, but very few others. Metta Michael 28498 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:43pm Subject: What the Buddha taught Hi everyone, including me, It can be said that what a person says is what they teach. Their sayings reflect their beliefs. But a far better indicator of what a person believes is what they do. What a person does is a teaching of what they believe. As we all know it is possible to come to believe many different and sometimes conflicting things about what the Buddha taught by words. This is because he said many different things at different times to different folks of different persuasions, and we are never the specific audience to which those specific things were said. We are selective about which of the Buddha's verbal teachings we take to heart, and commentary after commentary after commentary suggests that we do not know what teaching to apply when. When it comes to what the Buddha did, it is quite impossible to be selective. In the morning, the Buddha went on his alms round, after which he spent the rest of his day in seclusion, only coming out of the days abiding to expound the Dhamma when he was inclined to do so. Clearly, the Buddha is teaching, by doing, the value of seclusion and inactivity. Is seclusion and inactivity the Dhamma? Of course not. But seclusion and inactivity is, by the Buddha's example, creating the opportunity for insight into the Dhamma, whether wet, dry or otherwise to arise. Majjhima Nikaya 8 Sallekha Sutta The Discourse on Effacement "What can be done for his disciples by a Master who seeks their welfare and has compassion and pity on them, that I have done for you, Cunda. There are these roots of trees, there are empty places. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay, lest you later regret it. 'This is my message to you." Commentary "So far goes a compassionate teacher's task namely, the correct exposition of his teaching; that, namely, the practice (according to the teaching; patipatti), is the task of the disciples." Section on progress of the disciple http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/progress_disciple.htm I have no doubt about what the Buddha is teaching. I am very unwilling, however, to realise it. Quite attached to my thicket of beliefs, thank you very much. :-) I could hardly wish wisdom and understanding on anyone if I am daily rejecting the opportunities to take steps in the right direction, so I'll just wish everyone a pleasant abiding in the concept of 2004 :-) Be well!!! Herman 28499 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Victor, I am very happy to be reading your posts again. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: 28500 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan, Thank you for your post and encouraging words. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > --> This is well put. Part of the fruit of understanding is that > there is a decrease in attachment (alobha and adosa) and an increase > in the strength of scruples (hiri and ottappa). That leads to > practical change with certainty. I'd agree, then, that "practical > change" can be used to gauge progress in understanding: Is the > understanding just at the level of Pali words and recitation of > doctrinal formulas (in which case it would be practically useless)? > Most of us here have taken in more of the Buddha's words than most of those who became enlightened. Have the Buddha's words lost their edge? The Buddha's words have never been able to achieve anything without the willingness to practice them. I am chief amongst the unwilling. (There's another banner for you , Sarah . I am a poor follower of the Buddha, but at least I know how poor a follower I am :-)) But I do not kid myself that the acquisition of more theory will change my unwillingness. (another banner - Some poor fools are deluded, I am not :-)) If you are saying that theoretical understanding only is practically useless, you have my vote. All the best to you, Dan Herman (another banner, I am Herman, and the rest of you are not :-) 28501 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Herman] It's nice to have your vote, Herman. So, tell me if this is at all accurate: You gave up on Christianity a long time ago, and you gave up on Buddhism recently; and yet, you have a strong spiritual drive and instinct. What are you up to now? Dan > If you are saying that theoretical understanding only is practically > useless, you have my vote. > > All the best to you, Dan > > > Herman (another banner, I am Herman, and the rest of you are not :-) 28502 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:50pm Subject: Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Dear Andrew, Happy new year to you and Sandra. I so like this sutta quote. Not only does it appear in a number of suttas, but also in several of my note books! I have written in down a lot to remind myself. I visited my brother in Nov. [instead of attending Cooran], and he told me about a Catholic priest who spoke similar words in a sermon. "you can't retrieve the past and you might be dead in 10 minutes, so do good right now". This one was from Htoo Naing - I think - "we are being dead tick by tick. Death clock is running all the time, tick tack tick tack. No one can stop that tick tack tick tack". Cheers, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear DSG Cast & Crew > I wish you all a Happy New Year and look forward to reading your > thoughts and reflections in 2004. Here is one of my favourite > passages - a verse spoken by the Buddha as quoted in the > Bhaddekaratta Sutta: > "Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes; > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; > Let him know that and be sure of it, > Invincibly, unshakeably. > Today the effort must be made; > Tomorrow death may come, who knows? > No bargain with Mortality > Can keep him and his hordes away, > But one who dwells thus ardently, > Relentlessly, by day, by night- > It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, > Who has a single excellent night." > > [Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi ed.] > As always, any comments on the relevance of this verse (which appears > in quite a number of suttas) would be welcome. I note in particular > it refers to insight seeing presently arisen states correctly. > With metta to all > Andrew 28503 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Beisert" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics > Hello Mike, > > Mike: > Please excuse my butting in--Michael, has it occurred to you to think of > sabhaava as simply being the difference between what can and can't be the > object of satipa.t.thaana? This seems to me both to be the important > distinction and to obviate the necessity of fitting these terms into a > western philosophical framework. > > Michael: > You are touching another area where I have significantly different opinions > from some members of this list. In my view any object experienced by the > senses can be object of Satipatthana. I don't think we're in disagreement, here. > It is not the object that matters but > the three characteristics of dukha, anicca, anatta which are present in any > conditioned object/phenomena. Surely. The question is whether or not concept is conditioned object/phenomenon. I'm suggesting that the distinction is sabhaava. > Therefore anything can be used to realize > insight. The idea that ideas can be the object of insight is a dangerous one, I think--hence the importance of sabhaava. > To think that only so called paramatha dhammas are good for insight > is an unnecessary limitation. Not only unnecessary but contradictory to the idea that ideas can be the basis for liberating insight. > Sariputta was good at that, but very few > others. I don't think this (personality) is relevant--no offense. Nice chatting with you and Happy New Year, mike 28504 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:05pm Subject: Contraception and the First Precept Dear Group, What is the buddhist view of contraception in general, and the form of contraception known as the Morning-After Pill in particular? Does it break the first Precept, if the M-A Pill is taken, as it usually is, not knowing if fertilisation has taken place? [To deliberately kill a living being (i.e. to complete an unwholesome course of action - akusala kamma patha) five constituent factors must be fulfilled. There must be: - A living being - Knowledge that there is a living being - Desire to kill - Effort to kill - Consequential death] This relates to a small but concerning part of my work in Women's Health - the occasional anxious phone call from a woman who has had unprotected intercourse and is fearful of a pregnancy. http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1018838.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28505 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:34pm Subject: Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Hello Andrew, Azita, and all, This is such a coincidence! (And shows how papanca may be of help occasionally.) I was reading about Candana in the Devaputtasamyutta (young devas), when you posted the verses from the Bhaddekaratta Sutta, which focuses on our relationship to psychological time. Favourite of mine also. A monk called Lomasakangiya Thera had, in the time of Kassapa Buddha, been unable to understand the Bhaddekaratta Sutta even though another monk had tried very hard to explain it to him. They agreed to meet in the future life for a question and answer session on this sutta. The other monk became the deva Candana. And in this life, Lomasakangiya finally 'got it'. :-) http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/l/lomasakangiya_th.htm http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/c/candana.htm BTW, this sutta has been translated into Melanesian Pigin; if you are a little familiar with that, it makes charming reading: Bhaddekaratta Sutta = Sutta long husat i inap stap strong, em iet. No. 17 at: http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp06.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear DSG Cast & Crew > I wish you all a Happy New Year and look forward to reading your > thoughts and reflections in 2004. Here is one of my favourite > passages - a verse spoken by the Buddha as quoted in the > Bhaddekaratta Sutta: > "Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes; > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; > Let him know that and be sure of it, > Invincibly, unshakeably. > Today the effort must be made; > Tomorrow death may come, who knows? > No bargain with Mortality > Can keep him and his hordes away, > But one who dwells thus ardently, > Relentlessly, by day, by night- > It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, > Who has a single excellent night." > > [Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi ed.] > As always, any comments on the relevance of this verse (which appears > in quite a number of suttas) would be welcome. I note in particular > it refers to insight seeing presently arisen states correctly. > With metta to all > Andrew 28506 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:36pm Subject: the 8 inseparables Hi Nina, I called the 8 inseparables "organic matter" but I agree "organic" doesn't cover all the bases. I couldn't think of another word that would make sense out of the 8 inseparables. The 8 inseparables are a particular group of rupas that arise together. They are: 4 primary elements, color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. Salt would be included in this, so "organic" isn't quite right. It seems to me whatever has nutritive essence is food but I agree that thinking of one's fleshy body as food is a little odd. However, nutritive essence would include whatever has nutritive value to any living formation, including bacteria, imo. Considering the eye decade, for example, there are the 8 inseparables, eye sensitivity, and life faculty. These together are one of the things life faculty maintains for as long as kamma continues to produce them. Can't we call this an organ consisting of fleshy stuff with nutritive value plus eye sensitivity and life faculty which have no nutritive value? U Rewata Dhamma does use the word "organic" in CMA, but not as I used it: p. 250: Material phenomena originating from temperature: Beginning from the stage of presence at the moment of re-birth linking, the internal fire-element found in the material groups born of kamma combines with the external fire element and starts producing organic material phenomena originating from temperature. Thereafter the fire element in the material groups born of all four causes produces organic material phenomena born of temperature throughout the course of existence. Externally, temperature or the fire element also produces inorganic material phenomena, such as climatic and geological transformations. Larry 28507 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael k: Could you describe to me which dhamma do not have particular nature or possessed a distinct nature. Are you saying that that rupa can be nama and nama can be rupa or ignorance can be wisdom and wisdom can be ignorance. Dhamma has distinct nature, but the crux is whether this nature is caused, is conditioned. Furthermore I think you are confused about the usage of essence that we have used, when we used essence it does not mean it is not caused, arise on its own power. Just like when Buddha talks about anatta, can you tell me if it is an essence or not essence. Or in simply terms, can we deny the existence of not-self? When it is an existence mean it is an essence but that does not mean this essence can arise on its own or uncaused. An essence is not uncaused or arise as its own power, an essence to us means there is an existence that is caused. When we used the word possessed, it does not mean it has a self, definitely everything is anatta, cannot possessed anything. We are saying it is to relation that to a dhamma, this dhamma has its own unique characteristic just like anatta has its own unique characteristic. Can Anatta own its characteristic definitely not, the characteristic of Anatta is by natural law that is has such characteristic (no one create it neither does it arise on its own) but without this distinct characteristic of anatta, we will not have a path. And Anattta exist and is distinct (existence itself already connates an essence) but dependent on conditions and caused. kind regards Ken O 28508 From: Philip Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:02pm Subject: Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Hello Andrew, and everyone, from a new member. (My intro post was back about 10 days ago.) I certainly don't want to revive the past- it makes me queasy just thinking about it!- but I do believe in revisiting it. I've been going through my diaries from the last 3 years rather obsessively during the last week, finding patterns of backliding and diversions from the path. I think I've learned a lot about how to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and conduct my life more skillfully this year. I look forward to learning from you all this year. My participation will have to be limited mostly to reading a lot and asking occasional questions, since the depth of Dharma that is usually discussed here is beyond my beginner's practice. I live in Japan, and always enjoy New Year's eve here. The temple bells ring 108 times starting around 15 minutes before midnight to help us cleanse our minds of the 108...something or other. They are called "Bonnou" in Japanese. Unwholesome thoughts, I guess would be one way to translate it. Oh, my dictionary says "worldy desires." It's a nice tradition. Alas, there's not much sign of this kind of application of the Dharma in a communal way the rest of the year. It seems that for most Japanese, Buddhism is something to be pulled out for funerals and other ceremonies related to death. (In her greeting, Sarah mentionned that there are other DSG members living in Japan. I look forward to hearing about your experiences related to the Dharma here.) At least it's one single excellent night of the year here. Well, an excellent 15 minutes or so. With Metta, Philip --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear DSG Cast & Crew > I wish you all a Happy New Year and look forward to reading your > thoughts and reflections in 2004. Here is one of my favourite > passages - a verse spoken by the Buddha as quoted in the > Bhaddekaratta Sutta: > "Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes; > For the past has been left behind > And the future has not been reached. > Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; > Let him know that and be sure of it, > Invincibly, unshakeably. > Today the effort must be made; > Tomorrow death may come, who knows? > No bargain with Mortality > Can keep him and his hordes away, > But one who dwells thus ardently, > Relentlessly, by day, by night- > It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, > Who has a single excellent night." > > [Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi ed.] > As always, any comments on the relevance of this verse (which appears > in quite a number of suttas) would be welcome. I note in particular > it refers to insight seeing presently arisen states correctly. > With metta to all > Andrew 28509 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Victor Definitely the 8NP is part of the mental fabrication so does the three unwholesome roots bc they are all cetasikas. But if I am not wrong, the qn is asked whether the 8NP is fabricated (purposedly made up by the Buddha). No, bc mental fabrications cannot be fabricated as it is anatta. Kind regards Ken O 28510 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan --- "Dan D." wrote: > Hi Ken, > The "Middle Way" is Right understanding, Right effort, Right > speech, etc. It is not the rule, that makes 8fp "middle", it is > the "Right." "Rightness" comes from Understanding, not from brute > force following of a rule or list of rules. When the understanding > is truly there, the behavior is bound to be right. Your definition of Right Understanding is known as enlightement, so there is nothing there to discuss on this. However for those who cannot develop supramundane understanding after listening to Buddha has to follow this gradual path set by the Buddha. Pse kindly look at this sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn107.html The Vinaya is part of the middle way for those who still not enlighted. If we only defined the middle path as just for the enlighted that is to me, a very narrow definition. It is through mundane we proceed to supramundane so the middle path must be thread firstly in the mundane stage before to supramundane. Just like when we learn Abhdhamma we cannot verify certain things we learn bc of our kilesa, but we still have to see that way bc it is called the treading of the middle path (following the correct path). k: With regards to the qn wether virtue is path or fruit, here is the Visudd text, under the path of purification, Visudd say there are many ways to reach the path of Nibbana. One example is Virtue is part of way and definitely there must be understanding involved. <> > --> Dan: The Patimokkha is more than "Right Action". It is a list > of rules that, regardless of their understanding, bhikkhus are > expected to follow for the benefit of the sangha, for the benefit > of the community at large, and for the preservation of the > Dhamma. These mundane expectations are not part of the Middle Way > because there is no "Right" prefixed to any of the rules or to the > list of rules as a whole. K: But the inclusion of right action into this list cannot divulge the impt of these rules in the middle path. > --> Dan: Vinaya and "Middle Way" overlap tremendously, but they are not the same and neither is contained in the other. K: Since Buddha never specifically say which rules to abolish, that is why Vinaya becomes lengthy. The introduciton of Vinaya by Buddha is not just for the sake of conserving/protection of the sangha but is also for the the cultivation of virtues, that is part of the path as explain above. Kind regards Ken O 28511 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:57pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Christine, What do you reckon about this ? From the Udana 1 as found at http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn1.htm 8. Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Blessed One dwelt at Savatthi, in the Jetavana, the garden of Anâthapindika. At that time the venerable Sangamaji had arrived at Savatthi to see the Blessed One. Now the old wife of the venerable Sangamaji heard that her lord, Sangamaji, had arrived at Savatthi, so taking her child with her, she went to the Jetavana. At that time the venerable Sangamaji was sitting at the foot of a certain tree, enjoying a noonday rest. And the old wife went to where the venerable Sangamaji was, and drawing near to him, said, "This, O Samana, is thy little son, cherish thou him." When she had thus spoken, the venerable Sangamaji remained silent. A second and a third time she said: "This, O Samana, is thy little son, cherish thou him." When she had thus spoken, the venerable Sangamaji remained silent. Then the old wife, depositing the child in the presence of the venerable Sangamaji, took her departure, saying: "This, O Samana, is thy son, cherish thou him." And the venerable Sangamaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to him. Then the old wife with the assent of the venerable Sangamaji withdrew for a short distance, and when she saw that the venerable Sangamaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to him, this thought occurred to her, "This Samana cares not for his son", and turning away, she took her son and departed. And the Blessed One, with divine vision, clear and surpassing that of men, beheld this discomfiture of the old wife of the venerable Sangamaji. And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, breathed forth this solemn utterance: "He neither rejoices at his arrival, nor grieves at his departure: This Sangamaji, freed from attachment, him I call a Brahmana." All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > What is the buddhist view of contraception in general, and the form > of contraception known as the Morning-After Pill in particular? Does > it break the first Precept, if the M-A Pill is taken, as it usually > is, not knowing if fertilisation has taken place? > > [To deliberately kill a living being (i.e. to complete an unwholesome > course of action - akusala kamma patha) five constituent factors must > be fulfilled. > There must be: > - A living being > - Knowledge that there is a living being > - Desire to kill > - Effort to kill > - Consequential death] > > This relates to a small but concerning part of my work in Women's > Health - the occasional anxious phone call from a woman who has had > unprotected intercourse and is fearful of a pregnancy. > > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1018838.htm > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28512 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:58pm Subject: Sangamaji's actions was (Re: Contraception etc.) Hello Herman, and all, I find it a difficult sutta to consider - one of those areas in the scriptures that I put in the 'too hard' basket. I believe, in previous discussions (perhaps elsewhere), Sangamaji's actions were justified in later writings by giving the deserted wife with the hungry child an ulterior motive (!). Which indicates, to me, that people have felt uncomfortable about this sutta for more than two and a half thousand years. And, as Sangamaji's motives are praised by the Buddha, what more can be said? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > What do you reckon about this ? > > From the Udana 1 as found at > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn1.htm > > 8. Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Blessed One dwelt > at Savatthi, in the Jetavana, the garden of Anâthapindika. At that > time the venerable Sangamaji had arrived at Savatthi to see the > Blessed One. > > Now the old wife of the venerable Sangamaji heard that her lord, > Sangamaji, had arrived at Savatthi, so taking her child with her, > she went to the Jetavana. > > At that time the venerable Sangamaji was sitting at the foot of a > certain tree, enjoying a noonday rest. And the old wife went to > where the venerable Sangamaji was, and drawing near to him, > said, "This, O Samana, is thy little son, cherish thou him." > > When she had thus spoken, the venerable Sangamaji remained > silent. A second and a third time she said: "This, O Samana, is thy > little son, cherish thou him." When she had thus spoken, the > venerable Sangamaji remained silent. Then the old wife, depositing > the child in the presence of the venerable Sangamaji, took her > departure, saying: "This, O Samana, is thy son, cherish thou him." > And the venerable Sangamaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to > him. Then the old wife with the assent of the venerable Sangamaji > withdrew for a short distance, and when she saw that the venerable > Sangamaji neither looked at the child nor spoke to him, this thought > occurred to her, "This Samana cares not for his son", and turning > away, she took her son and departed. > > And the Blessed One, with divine vision, clear and surpassing > that of men, beheld this discomfiture of the old wife of the > venerable Sangamaji. > > And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, > breathed forth this solemn utterance: > > "He neither rejoices at his arrival, nor grieves at his departure: > This Sangamaji, freed from attachment, him I call a Brahmana." > > > All the best > > > Herman 28513 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:32pm Subject: Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Hi Philip Nice to hear from you and to learn a little bit about Japan. Don't be afraid to post more as there are many like you and I whose knowledge of Dhamma is limited - but growing (and that's the main thing to keep in mind). You wrote: I certainly don't want to revive the past- it makes me queasy just > thinking about it!- but I do believe in revisiting it. I've been > going through my diaries from the last 3 years rather obsessively > during the last week, finding patterns of backliding and diversions > from the path. I think I've learned a lot about how to avoid the > mistakes I've made in the past and conduct my life more skillfully > this year. I, too, have a tendency to revisit the past - mostly in an unskilful manner. I re-live my "glorious" moments (doesn't take long) and agonise over past bad "choices". While I'm revisiting the past and planning the future, the present moment passes unskilfully and I don't really learn anything. In the sense given in the sutta, reviving the past involves taking delight in thoughts about the past - I take this to mean not just "I want" thoughts but also "I don't want" thoughts. Sometimes, doing this is actually a form of conceit (mana) in which we wallow in thoughts of our "inferiority". I think re-visiting the past is useful IF AND ONLY IF we can do it as a means of wise reflection on Reality as taught by the Buddha. Philip, you may have already noticed that, on DSG, words like "practice" and "meditation" spark debate. Sometimes, the "debaters" can't agree. Sometimes they define their terms and find some stratum of agreement. If only a Buddha were teaching today, we could all go and ask him directly! But he isn't and we all do our individual best to comprehend his Teachings as they have come down to us. Some interesting areas of controversy are: 1. the teaching of conditionality - do we really have "choices" or is choice an illusion? 2. when does "Dhamma practice" become the fetter of merely adhering to rules and rituals? 3. what to do with the doctrine of "anatta" (not-self) - leave it to the monks and Ariyans or at least grapple with it on an intellectual level. If interested, you can always search the archives and read the differing views that have been expressed on these topics. If you are at all like me, these things take a long time to digest but I think the results are worthwhile. Personally speaking, I have gone from blaming myself for not being able to keep "on the Path" to believing that, whatever happens (good or bad) can become an object for Insight. To me, it's understanding the present that really matters. Too much re-visiting the past can cloud that. Do you agree? With metta Andrew > > 28514 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] processes in Patthana, Patisambhidha Hi Howard, Thank you for your kind wishes for my father. It is just old age, 103 years, some disorientation as to place, his memory, etc. But Music is fine for him. He is quite absentminded but lives up when he listens. We give it twice a week, it means rehearsing. Your story is quite amazing about the person in coma. My father gets irritated about Buddhism, but when Spinoza says something it is O.K. We had a nice chat about anger. Spinoza says that you should have no hate and when one is angry one cannot think clearly. He had to laugh and he asked Lodewijk and me whether we are sometimes angry. He can say very good things about politics, Proust, Balzac. What he formerly did emerges then and Lodewijk does his utmost to stimulate him, telling him about a passage of Proust he read the other day. Yes, about processes in more detail is in the Patthana under anatara paccaya, contiguity-condition, and in the Path of Discrimination. But citta is classified as dhatu: vinnanadhatu, mano-vinnana-dhatu, and people will not recognize them. I wrote to Rob M about all this in an old post. Please remind me, after I have first written about bhavanga, but this is work in progress. Nina. op 31-12-2003 18:17 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > In a message dated 12/31/03 11:52:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > That is a *far* cry from what I mean by the theory of the sense-door > and mind-door processes. I'm talking about all the bhavanga cittas, and javana > cittas, and registration cittas etc, etc. (Please see the postscript below.) > Certainly I'm not questioning the Buddha's teaching of dependent origination > or > conditionality in general! 28515 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Vinaya Dear Herman, I like your post very much, it is so true. I am glad you bring this up. Nina. op 31-12-2003 09:44 schreef Egberdina op hhofman@t...: > This is the verbatim remainder of the intro to the Vinaya as found > on accesstoinsight. 28516 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Ken O] Hi Ken, You write: "Your definition of Right Understanding is known as enlightement, so there is nothing there to discuss on this. However for those who cannot develop supramundane understanding after listening to Buddha has to follow this gradual path set by the Buddha." No, no. I'm talking of plain old kusala! Following rules or doing any particular "good deed" may be either kusala or akusala, depending on the cetasikas. I read mn107 per your request -- great sutta! But I don't see that it addresses 8fp (a.k.a., the "Middle Way"). I see "gradual training, gradual practice, and gradual progress"... Do you look at the Dhamma as a set of rules to follow? And that by following the rules, one will attain liberation? With metta galore, Dan 28517 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Dear Christine, It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, but from your description it looks like breaking the first precept because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. If there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach of the precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action motivated by dosa. Joy and peace to you in this new year, Metta, Dan 28518 From: Date: Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] processes in Patthana, Patisambhidha Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/1/04 1:41:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > Thank you for your kind wishes for my father. It is just old age, 103 years, > some disorientation as to place, his memory, etc. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: How wonderful to reach that age, to love music, and to have a loving, caring daughter and son-in-law. He is blessed. ----------------------------------------------- But Music is fine for him.> > He is quite absentminded but lives up when he listens. We give it twice a > week, it means rehearsing. Your story is quite amazing about the person in > coma. > My father gets irritated about Buddhism > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: And perhaps your husband a drop as well at times? ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- , but when Spinoza says something it> > is O.K. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: He could do a lot worse than Spinoza to admire. Years ago I read a little of Spinoza, and I was very impressed by his work. He was a pantheist who at one point was finally excommunicated by the Synagogue authorities of the time. ---------------------------------------------------- We had a nice chat about anger. Spinoza says that you should have no> > hate and when one is angry one cannot think clearly. He had to laugh and he > asked Lodewijk and me whether we are sometimes angry. He can say very good > things about politics, Proust, Balzac. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: He sounds like a brilliant man. (But that doesn't come as a surprise.) -------------------------------------------------- What he formerly did emerges then and> > Lodewijk does his utmost to stimulate him, telling him about a passage of > Proust he read the other day. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Wonderful! ------------------------------------------------ > Yes, about processes in more detail is in the Patthana under anatara > paccaya, contiguity-condition, and in the Path of Discrimination. But citta > is classified as dhatu: vinnanadhatu, mano-vinnana-dhatu, and people will > not recognize them. I wrote to Rob M about all this in an old post. Please > remind me, after I have first written about bhavanga, but this is work in > progress. > Nina. > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28519 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Ken O] Hi Dan > > By following the rules, one will attain liberation? k: Nope :-). But I (stubborn like a bull) still belief they are part of the middle way. kind regards Ken O 28520 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Christine, > It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, but > from your description it looks like breaking the first precept > because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. If > there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach of the > precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action motivated by > dosa. Hello Dan, I'm not so sure that it fits the bill of "knowing there is an embryo". 'Just in case' doesn't mean there is 'knowledge'. As you say, even if there was 'intention' but no embryo, there is no breach. I thought there had to be knowledge of a being, intention to kill that being, and the death of that being. Dan: > Joy and peace to you in this new year, > > Metta, And to you and your family also Dan metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28521 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Dear Christine, I think this is what Dan meant: if there is no new embryo then killing is not committed. It is similar to the case of war. A commander thinks enemy soldiers might be hiding in an area so he orders in an artillery bombardment or a bombing raid to be on the safe side. If there were no enemy present or killed then he commits no akusala kamma patha. The commander was playing it safe, just in case. The person who takes this aftermorning pill thinks there might be a new embryo so to be on the safe side they use the poison which will kill it. Often of course no new embryo was there at all, so no akusala kamma patha. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" <> > Dear Christine, > > It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, but > > from your description it looks like breaking the first precept > > because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. If > > there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach of > the > > precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action motivated > by > > dosa. > ========== > > I'm not so sure that it fits the bill of "knowing there is an > embryo". 'Just in case' doesn't mean there is 'knowledge'. As you > say, even if there was 'intention' but no embryo, there is no > breach. I thought there had to be knowledge of a being, intention to > kill that being, and the death of that being. > > Dan: > Joy and peace to you in this new year, > > > > Metta, > > And to you and your family also Dan > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28522 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 4:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: From reading about all of your `know-it-all' statements you > described to Christine, you probably got on their nerves. ;-) .... I expect you’re right as usual, James :-) I don’t think I had expressed any of those thoughts, but they probably sense them as you would. I know they don’t want to be advised yet again to watch their wallets and purses when shopping, esp.over the border......After a big hike today, I'm being excused for most of tomorrow too;-) ..... > James: Well, here we are mixing up terms. I don't see `neutrality' > and `impartiality' as being the same thing. Neutrality has the > connotation of not caring about a particular stimulus, as deeming it > unimportant. Impartiality has the connotation of recognizing a > particular stimulus but being unbiased (non-craving) toward it; and > is much closer to equanimity. ..... I agree. I mean I also much prefer equanimity and impartiality as translations. Your objection is therefore with a translation of upekkha rather than with the Visuddhimagga. .... > If you see equanimity as being impartiality, we don't have any > argument. The majority of the rest of this post is moot. .... Cool! .... > James: I don't think that you are more `emotionally needy' than > anyone else. LOL! Until we become enlightened, we all have certain > emotional needs. Mine are not the same as yours; that was all I was > stating. My approach in this group is better these days because I > have learned to better differentiate the emotional impressions I get > from others and my own. Didn't really intend to `Shake You Up'! > LOL! .... Oh well, fun while it lasted......shake shake...... ..... > Metta, and Happy New Years to you too and to everyone. I am going to > the opera for New Years! It should be fun (and much cheaper in > Cairo!;-). .... Hope you had fun! I can’t believe we’ve started the New Year in perfect agreement on a thread, but seems like it;-) ;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 28523 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 5:05am Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept dear Christine, One point that mitigates taking the morning after pill is that there a 2 ways it can work. The first is by working like a normal contraceptive that stops the sperm and egg joining. When it works like this it is fine from a buddhist perspective. The other is by stopping the fertilized egg from fixing to the uterus and this is where it is likely to be akusala kamma pattha. One can never know which is occurring (or whether there would have been no pregancy even without the pill) . The odds might be only 1 in a hundred or fifty that there is any breaking of the precept on any occasion of taking it. Hard to know. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Christine, > I think this is what Dan meant: if there is no new embryo then > killing is not committed. > It is similar to the case of war. A commander thinks enemy soldiers > might be hiding in an area so he orders in an artillery bombardment > or a bombing raid to be on the safe side. If there were no enemy > present or killed then he commits no akusala kamma patha. The > commander was playing it safe, just in case. > The person who takes this aftermorning pill thinks there might be a > new embryo so to be on the safe side they use the poison which will > kill it. Often of course no new embryo was there at all, so no > akusala kamma patha. > RobertK > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" <> > Dear > Christine, > > > It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, > but > > > from your description it looks like breaking the first precept > > > because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. > If > > > there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach > of > > the > > > precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action > motivated > > by > > > dosa. > > > ========== > > > > I'm not so sure that it fits the bill of "knowing there is an > > embryo". 'Just in case' doesn't mean there is 'knowledge'. As > you > > say, even if there was 'intention' but no embryo, there is no > > breach. I thought there had to be knowledge of a being, intention > to > > kill that being, and the death of that being. > > > > Dan: > Joy and peace to you in this new year, > > > > > > Metta, > > > > And to you and your family also Dan > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28524 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 5:30am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Hi Dan, Dan: So, how does patimokkha differ from Asceticism Lite? James: Asceticism Lite? What is that? A new type of diet soft drink? Hehehe… Okay, I think I catch your drift. The patimokkha (training rules for Bhikkhus) are not what you seem to think of them. They are not empty rules, void of meaning, or a lesser form of asceticism. This attitude is exactly why I made the statement that I made in my post to Howard. It seems to me that the Buddhist layperson's concept of the `Middle Way' has veered too much to the pleasure end of the spectrum. The patimokkha has the guiding principal of doing no harm: doing no harm to others, one's community, and one's self. It is designed for the monastic lifestyle so of course it doesn't apply directly to the layperson's lifestyle. However, what the layperson community needs to do, in my opinion, is to create its own Vinaya, fashioned on the principal of not doing harm and designed for the householder lifestyle. Rules that guide behavior for laypeople would be a lot better for us all than the individualistic theory of `if it feels good, do it'. As you noted, the Buddha refused to create a set of rules at first because they weren't needed. Why create rules when you don't need them? If everyone behaves appropriately, there is no need for rules. However, as the sangha grew and more `wayward' bhikkhus joined and they were spread out over far distances, the need for rules presented itself so the Buddha then created them, as the various needs arose. Before the Buddha died he said that some of the minor rules could be stricken, to of course account for changes in society due to the passage of time. He didn't say that they should be stricken, just that they could be. The sangha meet on this issue and decided not to strike any of the rules, which was probably a good decision. Those rules that become antiquated over time just simply won't apply in the future; no reason to tamper with the rules because it could set up a dangerous precedent. Now, the impression I am getting from you, forgive me if I am wrong, is that you believe the Buddha made some kind of mistake by creating these rules, that he was forced to create them, and that at the end he wanted to recant or to somehow correct the mistake he had made. That is not the proper way to look at it. The Vinaya and the Dhamma are synonymous. You keep emphasizing in this thread that the following of rules, without an understanding of them, isn't going to create wisdom. So, is the alternative better? Let people do whatever they want? Is that going to create wisdom? When we were all little children, our parents gave us rules to follow that we may not have understood but they were for our well being. As we grew older, we began to see the wisdom of those rules that we didn't see before. The Vinaya is for the well being of the sangha. Some monks will understand the wisdom of the rules and some won't, but that doesn't mean they all shouldn't follow them. I hope I have made my position clear. If you have anymore questions don't hesitate to ask! And Happy New Years! Metta, James 28525 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Mike, Mike: The question is whether or not concept is conditioned object/phenomenon. I'm suggesting that the distinction is sabhaava. Michael: Could you pls expand a little bit more on this idea? When you say concept, are you using the idea of paññati? I am not very comfrotable with paññati because it appears in very few suttas. I don’t know exactly were it comes from and what exactly it means. But anyway, in what sense is a concept distinct from a thought and would a concept fall into the sankhara aggregate, a mental formation? And if a concept is not conditioned, what is it then? Metta Michael 28526 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 6:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Ken: Ken: Could you describe to me which dhamma do not have particular nature or possessed a distinct nature. Michael: There is no dhamma that ‘possesses’ a distinct nature. Every dhamma has characteristics but those arise together with the dhamma, are also conditioned, and are not possessed by the dhamma. Ken: I think you are confused about the usage of essence that we have used, when we used essence it does not mean it is not caused, arise on its own power….it is an existence mean it is an essence but that does not mean this essence can arise on its own or uncaused. Michael: Confusion is to think that a dhamma can have an essence and at the same time be conditioned. An essence implies some unchanging nature and if it is unchanging the conditions do not apply. An essence does not arise and does not cease, this is the nature of an essence. A conditioned dhamma has not any kind of essence and therefore is subject to causes and conditions for its arising and ceasing. Dictionary definition of essence: The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something. The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things. Metta Michael 28527 From: Benjamin Jerome Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 7:33am Subject: [dsg] sexual misconduct vs. sensual pleasures misconduct Dear Everyone, Part of samma kammanto, right action, is: kamesu,micch'acara veramani For a translation of this I have seen both of these: Abstaining from sexual misconduct and Abstaining from misconduct in sensual pleasures. The latter, abstaining from misconduct in sensual pleasures, sounds like it includes more activities that the first, abstaining from sexual misconduct. How is this is be interpreted? Metta, Ben 28528 From: Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Ken O] Hi, Ken (and Dan) - In a message dated 1/1/04 4:10:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Dan > > > > >By following the rules, one will attain liberation? > > k: Nope :-). But I (stubborn like a bull) still belief they are > part of the middle way. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Good for you, Ken! What is key, I think, in "attachment to mere rules and rituals" are "attachment" and "mere".To observe rules that are useful and well given and that, when followed, can have auspicious consequences is simply good sense. On the other hand, to be *attached* to them in any way is already to fall victim to defilement, and, especially harmful is to be attached to them as *mere* rote ritual, as magic. And I think it is this sort of error that the Buddha cautioned against, and which disappears with stream entry. But, certainly he didn't teach actions for 45 years (in sutta and vinaya) only to advise against these actions. In fact, with stream entry, and the disappearance of the third fetter, there also arises enormous saddha, enormous confidence that the Buddha's path of practice works!) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > kind regards > Ken O ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28529 From: Benjamin Jerome Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 8:07am Subject: [dsg] dhamma to reflect upon To Everyone, ==== All that is subject to origination is subject to cessation ==== Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya (from AN VII,55) 'All things are not fit to be clung to' 'All things are unworthy of attachment' ==== Metta, Ben "And castles made of sand, slip into the sea, eventually." -Jimi Hendrix 28530 From: Larry Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: life maintenance Hi Nina, I left out one class of living materiality called the "vital 9" (8 inseparables + life faculty). What is it? Apparently it is different from the sense, sex, & heart base decades. Also, can you give specific examples of what these terms refer to, for example, skin, teeth, fat, bone? Otherwise they are too general and meaningless. I am inclined to think the sense decades, including the body decade, include only the materiality associated with the specific sensory mechanism, in other words, nerves. Would skin tissue, and physiognomy in general, be an example of a sex decade? Do all 4 means of production produce the 8 inseparables in the "whole" body? I am trying to figure out what is living and what isn't. The 8 inseparables that kamma produces is living materiality. Can you give examples of what would be examples of 8-inseparables produced by kamma, temperature, consciousness, and nutriment? Please be specific. If, because of desire, I eat too much pure octad, is the resulting fat produced by kamma or by consciousness? Larry 28531 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 8:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael > Michael: > There is no dhamma that ‘possesses’ a distinct nature. Every dhamma > has characteristics but those arise together with the dhamma, are also conditioned, and are not possessed by the dhamma. k: I thought that is the position I have told you. Dont take the word possession as some kind of monster that is has its own being. > Michael: > Confusion is to think that a dhamma can have an essence and at the > same time be conditioned. An essence implies some unchanging nature and if it is unchanging the conditions do not apply. An essence does not arise and does not cease, this is the nature of an essence. A conditioned dhamma has not any kind of essence and therefore is subject to causes and conditions for its arising and ceasing. > Dictionary definition of essence: The intrinsic or indispensable > properties that serve to characterize or identify something. The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things. > k: I think there are many definitions of essence, if you go to dictionary.com. it gives you six meanings including your definition mean but it also include this "The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something." That is what I am been telling you, sabhava means an indispensable properties that make a dhamma distinct. That is what it meant by the commentarian usage of the word essence. Earlier I have quoted you that essence depends on condition, now I have present one Abhidhamma quotes on essence that is meant by not a being, "The dispeller of delusion" under the classification of elements "As regards pathavidhatu ("earth element") and so on, the meaning of the element has the meaning of "nature" (sabhava) and the meaning of nature has the meaning of "voidness" (sunna) and the meaning of voidness has the meaning of "not a being" (nissatta). Thus it is the element that is only earth element in the sense of nature, voidness and not a being that is the earth element." Since you have insisted that essence in the commentarian usage is something of an unchangeable or uncaused nature, I would appreciate if you provide one example of the commentarian that you have seen. K: Furthermore, I have also used existence as essence in my earlier mail, the dictionary.com also defined essence that "something that exists, especially a spiritual or incorporeal entity" Can we say that anatta does not exist. Pse note that someting exist as an entity does not meant this entity is uncaused or rise up by its own power (anatta is always a good example) k: I hope this clarifies the meaning of essence - it is distinct and exist but it is conditoned and not a being. kind regards Ken O 28532 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 9:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Christine, I am not sure about contraceptive pills but I know there is one that killed a fertilized embryo. To me once there is a fertilize embryo, it has a life, be it attached itself to the uterus or not, so killing it, is breaking the first precepts. To me killing the embryo is not a breaking the first precept bc embryo does not have a life without fertilising. kind rgds Ken O 28533 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:01am Subject: Five aggregates of sustenance/pancupadanakkhandha Hi all, Here is some reflection on the theme of the five aggregate of sustenance/panupadanakkhandha. It might not be a very organized writing, but might offer some points for discussion. The word "upadanakkhandha" is a compound word made up of "upadana" and "khandha." The word "upadana" means fuel, supply, provision, or literally, that (material) substratum by means of which an active process is kept alive or going.[1] It is usually translated as "clinging" or "sustenance." The word "khandha", in its crude meaning, means "bulk, massiveness (gross) substance." In its applied sense, it means "the body of, a collection of, mass, or parts of"; in collective sense "all that is comprised under"; forming the substance of.[2] It is usually translated as "aggregate." As a compound word, "upadanakkhandha" can be understood as "aggregates of sustenance." When the Buddha taught the five aggregates/pancakkhandha, he taught form as an aggregate/the aggregate of form/rupakkhandho, feeling as an aggregate/the aggregate of feeling/vedanakkhandho, perception as aggregate/the aggregate of perception/sannakkhandho, fabrications as an aggregate/the aggregate of fabrications/sankharakkhandho, and consciousness as an aggregate/the aggregate of consciousness/vinnanakkhandho. yam kinci bhikkhave, rupam atitanagatapaccuppannam ajjhattam va khahiddhà va, olarikam va sukhumam va, hinam va panitam va, yam dure santike va, ayam vuccati rupakkhandho Bhikkhus, whatever form, past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called form as an aggregate/the aggregate of form. [3] The Buddha also taught the five aggregates of sustenance/pancupadanakkhandha: the form as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of form/rupupadanakkhandho, feeling as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of feeling/vedanupadanakkhandho, perception as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of perception/sannupadanakkhandho, fabrications as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of fabrications/sankharupadanakkhandho, and consciousness as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of consciousness/vinnanupadanakkhandho. For instance, yam kinci bhikkhave, rupam atitanagatapaccuppannam ajjhattam va bahiddha va, olarikam va sukhumam va, hinam va panitam va, yam dure santike va, sasavam upadaniyam, ayam vuccati rupupadanakkhandho Bhikkhus, whatever form, past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near, of effluence/sasava, of sustenance/upadaniya: that is called form as an aggregate of sustenance/the aggregate of sustenance of form. [4] Now some may have the following question: Are the five aggregates/pancakkhandha the same as the five aggregates of sustenance/pancupadanakkhandha or are they different? Before we come to a conclusive answer of the question above, let's examine the following passage: Tanneva nu kho ayye upadanam te ca pancupadanakkhandha, udahu annam nu kho pancahupadanakkhandhehi upadananti? Na kho avuso visakha tanneva upadanam, teva pancupadanakkhandha, napi annatra pancahupadanakkhandhehi upadanam yo kho avuso visakha pancasupadanakkhandhesu chandarago, tam tattha upadananti [Visakha]: "Is it the case, lady, that sustenance is the same thing as the five aggregates of sustenance or is it something separate?" [Bhikkhuni Dhammadinna]: "Friend Visakha, neither is sustenance the same thing as the five aggregates of sustenance, nor is it something separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five aggregates of sustenance, that is the sustenance there." [5] In the passage above, Dhammadinna explained the relation between sustenance, desire & passion, and the five aggregates of sustenance. This relation can be illustrated with a simile: The five aggregates of sustenance are like fuel, and desire & passion/chandarago is like fire. Sustenance/upadana is like the the fueling and sustaining of the fire by the fuel, or clinging of the fire to the fuel. And the following provides a explanation on what sustenance/upanada is: Katamanca bhikkhave upadanam? Cattarimani bhikkhave, upadanani: kamupadànam, ditthupadanam, silabbatupadanam, attavadupadanam. Idam vuccati bhikkhave upadanam. Bhikkhus, what is sustenance? These four are sustenances, bhikkhus: sensuality as sustenance/sustenance of sensuality, view as sustenance/sustenance of view, precept & practice as sustenance/sustenance of precept & practice, and doctrine of self as sustenance/sustenance of doctrine of self. This, bhikkhus, is called sustenance. [6] Sensuality, view, precept & practice, and doctrine of self can be seen as four forms of sustenance: four different ways how the fuel of the five aggregates fuels and sustains the fire of desire & passion, or how the fire of desire & passion clings to the fuel of the five aggregates. As Dhammadinna's reply to Visakha, sustenance is neither the same thing as the five aggregates of sustenance, nor is it something separate. Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the aggregates of sustenance, that is the sustenance there. In short, without the flame of desire & passion, there is no sustenance, the fueling & sustaining and the clinging. And sustenance/upadana leads to becoming, which in turn leads to birth, followed by aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. From sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. [7] Sustenance of precept & practice, and/or doctrine of self can be understood as that sustain and fuel the process of becoming, birth, aging & death, the round of rebirth. In short, sustenance inevitably leads to what is dukkha/unsatisfactory: the five aggregates of sustenance, which make up the totality of one's experience in the world from birth to death.[8] "Now this, monks, is the noble truth of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness: Birth is dukkha/unsatisfactory, aging is dukkha/unsatisfactory, death is dukkha/unsatisfactory; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are dukkha/unsatisfactory; association with the unbeloved is dukkha/unsatisfactory, separation from the loved is dukkha/unsatisfactory, not getting what is wanted is dukkha/unsatisfactory. In short, the five aggregates of sustenance are dukkha/unsatisfactory. [9] The origination/cause of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness is craving/tanha, the desire & passion with regard to the five aggregates of sustenance. The cessation of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness does not mean that the five aggregates of sustenance becomes not dukkha/unsatisfactory, nor does it mean that the five aggregates of sustenance becomes simply the five aggregates. "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness: the craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. [10] In terms of dependent co-arising/paticcasamuppada: From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of sustenance. From the cessation of sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire aggregate of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness. [11] Because of the cessation of birth, aging & death, the five aggregates of sustenance as the World, the All, the totality of a being's experience from birth to death, cease. That is the cessation of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness, the cessation of this entire aggregate of dukkha/unsatisfactoriness. Realizing the Unbinding/Nibbana, fully released, an arahant discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'[12] From the time of an arahant's realization of the Unbinding/Nibbana to the time of his or her passing away, Total Unbinding/Parinibbana, the arahant still lives in the world, with the five aggregates of sustenance. However, with the cessation of craving, sustenance ceases. For the arahant, there is no more birth. Peace, Victor Notes: * All pali passages are from http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html [1] The Pali-English Dictionary in http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ [2] Ibid. [3] Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48, Khandha Sutta, Aggregates. Adaptation of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html [4] Ibid. [5] Majjhima Nikaya 44, Cula-vedalla Sutta, The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers. Adaptation of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html [6] Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta, Analysis of Dependent Co-arising. Adaptation of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html [7] Ibid. [8] Another classification scheme of the totality of one's experience in the world is the scheme of six internal and external sense bases. [9] Samyutta Nikaya LVI.11, Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta, Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion Adaptation of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011.html [10] Ibid. [11] Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta, Analysis of Dependent Co-arising. Adaptation of Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html [12] Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59, Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the body, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html 28534 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Ken, KenO: I think there are many definitions of essence, if you go to dictionary.com. it gives you six meanings including your definition mean but it also include this "The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something." Michael: Yes, there are many definitions but all of them point towards something intrinsic, inherent, that truly exists. The use of ‘essence’ will always be loaded with those connotations no matter how much explanation one gives. If the intention of the commentators was to use sabhava/essence but did not mean to transmit the idea of inherent, intrinsic, why then use the word? KenO: I hope this clarifies the meaning of essence - it is distinct and exist but it is conditioned and not a being Michael: I agree with ‘distinct and exist and is conditioned’ but cannot agree that this is a definition of essence. It may be your particular way of defining essence but is not the common usage. Metta Michael 28535 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:40am Subject: life- faculty, fragility of life Dear Larry and Howard, op 29-12-2003 00:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Does the life faculty maintain any consciounesses? N: It performs its function in the unit of rupas produced by kamma. This happens so long as we are alive, and cittas arise and fall away, until the last moment. In this sense there is a connection. The length of our life depends on kamma. A. Sujin said to me: look at your father, we can see that kamma causes his life to hold out so long. L: What about the > formless realm? N: no life faculty, because there is no rupa. Thus we see that life-faculty is not a *conditio sine qua non* for being alive. I was at a loss with your first qu, but this solves it, thank you. L:Is the life faculty the same for plants? N: plant are external rupas produced only by the element of heat, kamma does not produce them. Thus, no life faculty. Some people find this difficult. A plant cannot perform kusala or akusala nor receive vipaka. But *we* cannot always know what is alive and what is not. In my correspondance with Howard I included a sutta passage: > In M I, 43, there is a conversation between Sariputta and Maha-Kotthita, > and > also vitality is mentioned. it is explained that vitality and heat depend on > one another. It is explained that a dead body is different from the body of > a monk who has realized the stopping of perception and feeling: this body, your reverence, when three things are got rid of: vitality, heat > and consciousness, then does this body lie cast away, flung aside like unto > a senseless log of wood.> H: I understand the difficulty to see life-faculty as a rupa, not just a conventional term. This also goes for heat as one of the producing factors. I come to that later on. H: I suppose that when a prior citta is the cause, then that is when the > namic version of life force comes into play. Would this be the Abhidhammic > response to my question. N: More about mental jivitindriya. The Expositor invites for the definition of rupa jivitindriya to look at nama jivitindriya, which is a cetasika, one of the universals arising with each citta. It has a function, preserving the life of the accompanying citta and cetasikas. I requote: > Mental jivitindriya: Expositor I, p. 197: <...that persistence which is in > immaterial states means the persistence which, in the sense of establishing > them, is in the immaterial states. For when it is present, the immaterial > states occur, go on, continue; hence it is called persistence [aayu: life, > is causative of i, to go, is explained]. This word gives the nature of the > faculty of life. And inasmuch as these associated immaterial states- when > there is persistence- subsist, occur, maintain themselves, progress, > continue, preserve themselves...> > Citta and cetasikas fall away together, but they are succeeded by a > following citta and cetasikas. There is a new life faculty with them each > time they arise, and it makes them subsist during that short moment. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: What are instances of the mental life principle *not* being present? Why should it be deemed necessary. Cittas, cetasikas, and rupas arise according to conditions. Why the need for a special "life principal" to sustain them??? N: The difficulty with this cetasika is that it does not appear as prominent as feeling cetasika or anger cetasika. It seems a hidden reality. This is also the case with attention, manasikara, the controller of the object, which drives citta and cetasikas to the object. And then what do we really know about remembrance, sanna, and contact, phassa, and concentration which focusses on the object? We may think we understand, but do we really? We should see mental jivitindriya in the context of these seven universals, which assist citta to cognize an object. The seven universals are the minimum amount of cetasikas, asisting the citta which sees or hears. Citta could not arise without them. And cetasikas cannot arise without citta. They condition one another by way of conascence and mutuality (an~nama~n~na). Thus also mental life faculty has its own task. Without it no citta. Let's consider more the meaning of cetasika in life. Cittas still go on from moment to moment, while seeing, while hearing. We read, < For when it [mental life faculty] is present, the immaterial states occur, go on, continue; hence it is called persistence [aayu: life, is causative of i, to go, is explained]. This word gives the nature of the faculty of life.> It becomes clearer that no man, woman sees, only citta and cetasikas, carrying out their functions. We cling to life mental and physical, unnoticed. We take it for granted that it continues. Kamma is the cause of physical life-faculty and it is beyond control how much longer kamma will produce it and jivitindriya will look after the conascent rupas. The study of jivitindriya reminds us of the fragility of life. Nina. 28536 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:good wishes Dear Mike, I am reflecting on what you say, < to obviate the necessity of fitting these terms into a western philosophical framework>. Food for thought. People do this already, no matter what we say, and how can we help, find ways to make the Abhidhamma more accessible? I think that helping should be to consider first the interests of an individual. Like I wrote about my father to Howard. What are his interests. We shall try to talk more about Proust to him. Had Proust only gone one step further: he realized already that there is not one "moi", not one Albertine, but many changing moments. Or let it be Spinoza, I get the info from my philosophical sister. It may be helpful if you tell us how for you "the penny dropped", and also if Ken H could say something. Mike, did you have trouble with the Abhidhamma? You entered dsg long before me, and, what I notice from you, it seems to me that you listened to A. Sujin already for ages. But you were not long in Bgk? Not much opportunity to listen? No conflicts with western ideas?? I am no good, since because of accumulations, I am not western. I felt right from the beginning very comfortable with the way the teachers of old express themselves, with their world of thinking. So, I had no idea that others find this difficult. But I want like people to look through the terms and go straight to the dhammas that are actually taught by these terms and explanations. To find out the intentions of the teachers of old. What did they want to express? I think, they taught to go straight to reality. How difficult to explain the difference between concepts and realities, sabhava dhammas. I think we should reflect more on this ourselves and give many examples from daily life, yes, as much as we can. We also have the matter of formal meditation, so often discussed here. It is a fact that many people feel comfortable with formal meditation, they find it beneficial for themselves. I would like to talk about dhammas occuring in daily life and reflect on what the suttas teach about these. The Abhidhamma teaches the same as the sutta but gives more details about nama and rupa. We should discover for ourselves the presently arisen dhammas in daily life and find out for ourselves that this is what the Buddha taught all the time, also in the suttas, also in Vinaya. To find out that the development of satipatthana from moment to moment is the way to begin to understand those realities. I hope to get ideas from you and others how to build a bridge between the modern, western outlook and the Dhamma as taught by the teachers of old. I myself do not think it helpful to westernize the Dhamma, we shall get further away instead of nearer to the Dhamma. I appreciate Azita's and Htoo's reminder that we have no time to lose, tick..tack.. Our life is too short, really. This conditions a sense of urgency. But at the same time we should realize that we are in for a long, long time project. Happy New Year to you all, and may we every day of this year develop understanding of the realities that arise in our daily life, Nina. op 31-12-2003 23:42 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Please excuse my butting in--Michael, has it occurred to you to think of > sabhaava as simply being the difference between what can and can't be the > object of satipa.t.thaana? This seems to me both to be the important > distinction and to obviate the necessity of fitting these terms into a > western philosophical framework. 28537 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Larry, op 01-01-2004 02:36 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I called the 8 inseparables "organic matter" but I agree "organic" > doesn't cover all the bases. N: one of those words, Larry, about which Mike said: < fitting these terms into a western philosophical framework.> You quoted U Rewata and concluded that he gives another meaning: organic: rupas of the body, inorganic: other rupas, not of the body. The trouble of such terms: different people give them a different meaning. Why not use the Abhidhamma terms straight? Preferable together with the Pali. L.... The 8 inseparables are a > particular group of rupas that arise together. They are: 4 primary > elements, color, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. Salt would be > included in this, so "organic" isn't quite right. N: salt is a conventional term, not one of the eight inseparable rupas. It is like sand. When it is on the tongue salty flavour appears, it impinges on tastingsense (a rupa) ready or fit for impact of flavour. At the same time it is accompanied by seven other rupas of that unit. But only one of those is experienced, depending on the right conditions for such experience. L: It seems to me > whatever has nutritive essence is food but I agree that thinking of > one's fleshy body as food is a little odd. However, nutritive essence > would include whatever has nutritive value to any living formation, > including bacteria, imo. N: yes, what we call a piece of wood consists of units of the inseparable rupas. Nutrition is included. > Considering the eye decade, for example, there are the 8 inseparables, > eye sensitivity, and life faculty. These together are one of the things > life faculty maintains for as long as kamma continues to produce them. N: Yes. L: Can't we call this an organ consisting of fleshy stuff with nutritive > value plus eye sensitivity and life faculty which have no nutritive > value? N: We have to distinguish between the compound organ and the sentient organ. The compound organ is a lump of flesh, and it is constituted by many units of rupa, including nutrition. The sentient organ is located within one unit, a decad, produced by kamma, also including the eight inseparables, thus, nutrition. No need to think of foodstuff we can eat. That decad is so very tiny. It is perhaps difficult to imagine that nutrition always arises with each unit? Nina. 28538 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:50am Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Dear Robert and Christine, I like that war analogy, Robert. The artillery bombardment is ordered on the assumption that there are enemy soldiers there. If enemy soldiers are then killed, there is breach of first precept -- a spiritual lapse. But, gosh, Christine, if knowledge must be certain that a being is to be killed before the deliberate killing of that being constitutes a breach of the first precept, you've found a wondrous loophole! Just think of the possibilities... Another point to consider is that we are not living in a purely spiritual world, and we should not expect that all the actions that are considered morally blameless in a material or social calculus will be blameless in a spiritual calculus, and we cannot expect that all actions that are spiritually tainted will also be materially or socially tainted. In fact, spiritually corrupt actions (e.g., M-A pill, bombing Hitler's tanks) may have social benefits that would improve the world for a lot of people. Metta, Christine. Dan 28539 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 2:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Dan, Christine & Robert, I think this quote is relevant, from the Paramatthajotikaa (The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning),comy to the Khuddakapaa.tha),PTS,trans by ~Naanamoli. 11, the Training Precepts, 21 "Herein,a blow given by the body or by what is connected to the body is ‘with one’s own hand’ as means. That is of two kinds as directed [to an individual] and not so directed. Herein, in the case directed [to an individual], one becomes responsible for the action of killing [kamma-bandha -responsibility for action] only through the death of the one to whom the blow was directed. In the case of that not so directed [and given] thus ‘Let anyone at all die’ [one becomes responsible] through anyone’s death that is conditioned by that blow." Metta, Sarah ===== 28540 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 2:41pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Christine and everyone, You come up with some interesting conundrums. I am reminded of the Monty Python lampooning of the Catholic stance against male masturbation through the song "Every sperm is sacred". Is it the Buddhist viewpoint that a sperm is not a living thing? That would be a bit arbitrary, don't you think? I wonder what the Buddhist stance would be on rape victims taking the M-A pill? I'm just imagining what would happen if a definitive stance was taken by majority or authority. Is a precept a guideline one applies to oneself, or is a precept applied from without? All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, but > > from your description it looks like breaking the first precept > > because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. If > > there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach of > the > > precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action motivated > by > > dosa. > > Hello Dan, > > I'm not so sure that it fits the bill of "knowing there is an > embryo". 'Just in case' doesn't mean there is 'knowledge'. As you > say, even if there was 'intention' but no embryo, there is no > breach. I thought there had to be knowledge of a being, intention to > kill that being, and the death of that being. > > Dan: > Joy and peace to you in this new year, > > > > Metta, > > And to you and your family also Dan > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28541 From: Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 9:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/1/04 5:44:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Christine and everyone, > > You come up with some interesting conundrums. > > I am reminded of the Monty Python lampooning of the Catholic stance > against male masturbation through the song "Every sperm is sacred". > Is it the Buddhist viewpoint that a sperm is not a living thing? > That would be a bit arbitrary, don't you think? > > I wonder what the Buddhist stance would be on rape victims taking > the M-A pill? > > I'm just imagining what would happen if a definitive stance was > taken by majority or authority. Is a precept a guideline one applies > to oneself, or is a precept applied from without? > > > > All the best > > > Herman > =========================== Now, cut that out, Herman! No libertarians allowed on Religion lists!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28542 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 3:34pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept [Herman] Hi Herman, Adopting a law to prohibit murder is good public policy, but it is not Buddhist. Nor is it non-Buddhist. Buddhism is not about devising ways to control other people's behavior; it is about development of wisdom and virtue within oneself. Dan > I'm just imagining what would happen if a definitive stance was > taken by majority or authority. Is a precept a guideline one applies > to oneself, or is a precept applied from without? 28543 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hello Dan, RobertK, and all, I wasn't looking for a loophole Dan - RobM had given me the definition of killing not so long ago, and I was trying to fit the Morning After Pill in with that. The definition was from the The Expositor (Atthasalini), which is an authorised Commentary on the Dhammasa.nga.nii by Buddhaghosa. (5th century C.E.)Book I, Part III, Chapter V - Discourse on Courses of Immoral Actions, p126-136 in the PTS version. It states: To deliberately kill a living being (i.e. to complete an unwholesome course of action - akusala kamma patha) five constituent factors must be fulfilled. There must be: - A living being - Knowledge that there is a living being - Desire to kill - Effort to kill - Consequential death So this is why I thought that actual knowledge that there definitely is a living being was important. There is something not clear to me - probably I'm mixing-up kamma and precepts. Here is how I see it. I think Kamma is Intention (a moment of desiring to act in order to create a particular result). I don't think it is the 'beginning the action' (whether or not achieving the intended result), or, the 'completion of action' (with the achieving of the intended result). Intention (kamma) precedes action and any result. A precept (using the first precept as an example) is broken, only if it is broken by deliberate completed action? Thinking about killing isn't breaking a Precept, accidentally killing (stepping on unseen ants) isn't breaking a Precept, badly injuring a being isn't breaking a Precept - only actually deliberately completing the killing does break a precept. Kamma has a much wider field of occurrence than the basic (unexpanded) Precepts. So, the intention to kill (the ordering of and the dropping of bombs on houses) is akusala and will create akusala accumulations (?) - even though it may or may not break the Precept (depending on whether there are beings killed)? If the Precept is only against actual killing - then anything less than the death of a being (such as hurting, disabling) doesn't break it? Intentions and mind states are the important things within Christianity and are equivalent to completed actions. The Lord Jesus said: "You have heard that it was said to people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 'But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca', [shows contempt] is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." Does the Lord Buddha say anything like this? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Robert and Christine, > I like that war analogy, Robert. The artillery bombardment is ordered > on the assumption that there are enemy soldiers there. If enemy > soldiers are then killed, there is breach of first precept -- a > spiritual lapse. > > But, gosh, Christine, if knowledge must be certain that a being is to > be killed before the deliberate killing of that being constitutes a > breach of the first precept, you've found a wondrous loophole! Just > think of the possibilities... > > Another point to consider is that we are not living in a purely > spiritual world, and we should not expect that all the actions that > are considered morally blameless in a material or social calculus > will be blameless in a spiritual calculus, and we cannot expect that > all actions that are spiritually tainted will also be materially or > socially tainted. In fact, spiritually corrupt actions (e.g., M-A > pill, bombing Hitler's tanks) may have social benefits that would > improve the world for a lot of people. > > Metta, Christine. > > Dan 28544 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Herman] Hi Dan, What you wrote is quite accurate. I think that all the "isms" out there have their uses as long as they remain the means to an end, not an end in themselves. These days I work as little as possible (which is significantly less than the nine-to-five routine) to maintain us in the manner accustomed, and am very focussed on doing very little:-) All the best to you Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > It's nice to have your vote, Herman. > > So, tell me if this is at all accurate: You gave up on Christianity a > long time ago, and you gave up on Buddhism recently; and yet, you > have a strong spiritual drive and instinct. > > What are you up to now? > > Dan > > > > > If you are saying that theoretical understanding only is > practically > > useless, you have my vote. > > > > All the best to you, Dan > > > > > > Herman (another banner, I am Herman, and the rest of you are not :-) 28545 From: Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Nina: "Why not use the Abhidhamma terms straight?" Larry: Daily life, Nina, daily life. These terms are meaningless jargon if we can't relate them to daily life. I disagree with what you said about salt. Salt is a nutritional substance, an example of the 8 inseparables, produced by temperature. It is a mineral; not a plant. I'm not very happy with plants not being considered to be alive. L. 28546 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hello Herman, and all, Everyday life just throws up conundrums. :-) I think there is an accepted definition of a 'sentient being', and it includes 'breathing, awareness of oneself, fearing pain and trying to avoid it'. I don't have an actual reference to hand for this definition. So a sperm would miss out on all three counts. I think of it as more of an unguided missile than a sentient being. I don't think there could be any objection to preventative forms of contraception such as the ordinary taken-in-advance contraceptive pill, or condoms, but the Morning- After Pill has become a question for me since it is now available here without prescription. And the rape victims is concerned (among other things) about the same spiritual matters as someone who has had impulsive, consensual sex and is panicing afterwards. People think very deeply and with great anxiety about these matters - abortion is legal here for many reasons, but people often go through great hardship rather than go against their ethical and spiritual values. The kammic consequences would be there whether or not the person knew about precepts and kamma. I think a Precept is a training rule - and can only be followed by oneself. But kamma/vipaka rolls on every moment, whether we want it applied or not. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Christine and everyone, > > You come up with some interesting conundrums. > > I am reminded of the Monty Python lampooning of the Catholic stance > against male masturbation through the song "Every sperm is sacred". > Is it the Buddhist viewpoint that a sperm is not a living thing? > That would be a bit arbitrary, don't you think? > > I wonder what the Buddhist stance would be on rape victims taking > the M-A pill? > > I'm just imagining what would happen if a definitive stance was > taken by majority or authority. Is a precept a guideline one applies > to oneself, or is a precept applied from without? > > > > All the best > > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." > > wrote: > > > Dear Christine, > > > It's hard to say what the "buddhist view" of the M-A pill is, > but > > > from your description it looks like breaking the first precept > > > because there is intent to kill the embryo and then killing it. > If > > > there happens not to be one, then of course there is no breach > of > > the > > > precept, even though there is aggressive, violent action > motivated > > by > > > dosa. > > > > Hello Dan, > > > > I'm not so sure that it fits the bill of "knowing there is an > > embryo". 'Just in case' doesn't mean there is 'knowledge'. As > you > > say, even if there was 'intention' but no embryo, there is no > > breach. I thought there had to be knowledge of a being, intention > to > > kill that being, and the death of that being. > > > > Dan: > Joy and peace to you in this new year, > > > > > > Metta, > > > > And to you and your family also Dan > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 28547 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Christine and all, I accept your definition of sentient being wholeheartedly, and see no problem excluding sperm (I like the unguided missile image :-) on that basis. But I can't help thinking that a single fertilised cell, or few celled organism, as would be the object of the M-A pill, would fall under the same definition, and therefore not be sentient. > > Everyday life just throws up conundrums. :-) I think there is an > accepted definition of a 'sentient being', and it > includes 'breathing, awareness of oneself, fearing pain and trying > to avoid it'. I don't have an actual reference to hand for this > definition. So a sperm would miss out on all three counts. I > think of it as more of an unguided missile than a sentient being. > I don't think there could be any objection to preventative forms of > contraception such as the ordinary > taken-in-advance contraceptive pill, or condoms, but the Morning- > After Pill has become a question for me since it is now available > here without prescription. And the rape victims is concerned (among > other things) about the same spiritual matters as someone who has had > impulsive, consensual sex and is panicing afterwards. I fully accept that a great number of women think very deeply about these matters before taking or not taking the M-A pill. I also know that there are many women who would take the M-A pill with as little effort or dosa as is required for taking an aspirin. For some the matter is very stressful, for others entirely stress free. I really have to question whether the kammic consequences would be the same for the stressed and the unstressed women. Kamma is intention. People must live with the consequences of how they judge their own deeds, not some objective judgment external to themselves (IMO) People think > very deeply and with great anxiety about these matters - abortion is > legal here for many reasons, but people often go through great > hardship rather than go against their ethical and spiritual values. > The kammic consequences would be there whether or not the person knew > about precepts and kamma. > I think a Precept is a training rule - and can only be followed by > oneself. But kamma/vipaka rolls on every moment, whether we want it > applied or not. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- All the best to you Herman 28548 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 5:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Beisert" To: Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 5:48 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics > Hello Mike, > > Mike: > The question is whether or not concept is conditioned > object/phenomenon. I'm suggesting that the distinction is sabhaava. This (immediately above) wasn't from me, was it? Another Mike, perhaps? > Michael: > Could you pls expand a little bit more on this idea? When you say concept, > are you using the idea of paññati? I am not very comfrotable with paññati > because it appears in very few suttas. Interesting point about the occurence in the suttas-- I'll leave the question to others better qualified to answer, though. > I don't know exactly were it comes > from and what exactly it means. But anyway, in what sense is a concept > distinct from a thought and would a concept fall into the sankhara > aggregate, a mental formation? > And if a concept is not conditioned, what is > it then? Good questions all (in my opinion), and also better answered by our better-informed correspondents. The only point I meant to make had to do with sabhaava being (perhaps) the distinguishing characteristic of what can vs. cannot be the object of satipa.t.thaana, as opposed to denoting some kind of essence or reality in a western philosophical sense. I think we might agree that the latter is not a particularly useful avenue of discussion. mike 28549 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 6:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Sarah, how does your Paramatthajotikaa quote square with Christine's DhsA quote that there must be [certain] knowledge that there really is a sentient being that will receive the blow in order for the first precept to be broken so that the M-A pill and the bombardier are off the hook as far as the training precepts go? A related question: If I don't believe that mosquitos qualify as sentient beings, then I can kill them with abandon without breaking the first precept, right? After all, I do not have knowledge that a sentient being is killed... Dan > I think this quote is relevant, from the Paramatthajotikaa (The > Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning),comy to the Khuddakapaa.tha),PTS,trans by > ~Naanamoli. > > 11, the Training Precepts, 21 > > "Herein,a blow given by the body or by what is connected to the body is > `with one's own hand' as means. That is of two kinds as directed [to an > individual] and not so directed. Herein, in the case directed [to an > individual], one becomes responsible for the action of killing > [kamma-bandha -responsibility for action] only through the death of the > one to whom the blow was directed. > > In the case of that not so directed [and given] thus `Let anyone at all > die' [one becomes responsible] through anyone's death that is conditioned > by that blow." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 28550 From: Benjamin Jerome Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 6:48pm Subject: [dsg] the Four Noble Truths To everyone, I have some thoughts and questions about the Dhamma. I would be happy to hear what others think about it. (I *think* I might use the words attention, awareness, and mindfulness all meaning the same thing, hope this does not cause confusion) Is mindfulness brought about by craving? (the below quote seems to say yes, and I agree with it) Is this the meaning of using a thorn to remove a thorn? Is the object of attention/awareness determined? Here is a description of the 4 noble truths in The Way of Mindfulness, the Satipatthaana Sutta Commentary by Soma Thera: "The mindfulness which lays hold of the [object of satipatthaana] is the Truth of Suffering; The previous craving which originates that mindfulness is the Truth of Origin; The non-occurance of both that mindfulness and the craving is the Truth of Cessation. The Real Path that understands suffering, casts out the origin, and has cessation for its object is the Truth of the Way. Endeavouring in this way by means of the Four Truths one arrives at peace." pg.107 I found this interpretation gives me a different angle on the 4 Noble Truths. Notice that here the *object of mindfulness* is not the truth of dukkha, but the *mindfulness itself* is the dukkha. And it seems that what we pay attention to is determined by craving. This is similar to what Herman wrote in a recent posting: " awareness ... is a product of selection based on preference and avoidance. " For an ordinary person, craving drags the attention constantly from the past to the future and back again, examining the present only sometimes, stirring up covetousness and grief like it's its job. But! thanks to satipatthaana we are instructed to use the *noble craving* to pay attention to the present moment, and try and be mindful of impermanence. This requires effort! This craving is special and is called Noble (in some sutta I read once) because is can lead to insight into the Four Noble Truths. I think that I had a tiny but significant insight while I was eating dinner tonight! I was eating a salad and chewing it mindfully, intent on listening to the sound of the chewing. But my father was in the room on the phone with his mother and his conversation was loud and overpowered the volume of my chewing. Then I noticed suddenly anger arose! But I recognized right away what the cause of the anger was, it was my desire to be mindful of the sound of chewing! In this way I saw for myself how wanting leads to anger! And of course I was able to abandon such a silly desire, is it not ridiculous to get angry because one cannot hear the sound of crunching food in his mouth? My question is, is this the way which leads to the destruction of craving? Is it because of seeing grief inside myself caused by wanting that wanting will gradually fade away? Sometimes it seems like I can understand a want and some anxiety it is producing, but it still the wanting doesn't cease! Lately I really have been noticing... I crave so much for mindfulness of present happenings that it causes me anxiety. When you want, you suffer! What I don't understand is this: if craving ceases, and awareness is based on "preference and avoidance" what does attention rest on? What determines what one pays attention to? I have heard the phrases "choiceless awareness" and I think "awareness-release". What does this mean? I don't understand how mindfulness could "not occur", as the above quotes describes in the Truth of Cessation. I remember reading something written by Kant. I believe it was called the Idea... he said something like, "freedom is to be free from determinations in a sensous world". Metta, Ben 28551 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 6:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael k: thanks for continuing the this discussion as I value it alot. I have the same concern as you, if Abhidhamma or ancient commentaries project something that is not changeable, independent then it must be rejected. > Michael: > Yes, there are many definitions but all of them point towards > something intrinsic, inherent, that truly exists. The use of ‘essence’ will always be loaded with those connotations no matter how much explanation one gives. If the intention of the commentators was to use sabhava/essence but did not mean to transmit the idea of inherent, intrinsic, why then use the word? K: Lets get into the discussion again, could you point to me which five khandhas that dont truly exist. They definitely truly exist but dependent on conditions. To me there is a load of difference between what exist on its own right and what exists dependent on conditions. IMHO the commentators used the word essence as a distinct nature of a dhamma that has inherent characteristics which can only be manifested when the dhamma arise and it truly exist not on its power or uncause but caused and conditioned. Inherent \In*her"ent\, a. [L. inhaerens, -entis, p. pr. of inhaerere: cf. F. inh['e]rent. See Inhere.] Permanently existing in something; inseparably attached or connected; naturally pertaining to; innate; inalienable; as, polarity is an inherent quality of the magnet; the inherent right of men to life, liberty, and protection. ``A most inherent baseness.'' --Shak. in·her·ent Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic. k: there a few ways that inherent is defined, one that is supported by your position that it is permanent, another it is inseparably attached or connect; naturally pertaining. If you choose the earlier one, definitely it is seen as permanent but if you choose the latter one, it is seen as naturally pertaining to or existig as an essential constituent or characteristic. So the word sabhava usage is not wrong, it is a matter how you see it. I have earlier quote you two Abhidhamma sources from two different books to say it is conditioned and sunna. So far they have been consistent on their definition. Since you said they promote an independent entity, please give me one sabhava definition that support your position from Abhidhamma or commentary works. > Michael: > I agree with ‘distinct and exist and is conditioned’ but cannot > agree that this is a definition of essence. It may be your particular way of defining essence but is not the common usage. k: Hmmmmmmmm I thought I already give a neutral one that is in dictionary.com. kind regards Ken O 28552 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 7:28pm Subject: Re: characteristics - formulation Hi Michael and Ken and everyone, I am appreciating the discussion very much. I cannot remember whether this has been raised yet. Sorry if I am repeating someone else :-) To me, the problem lies in the formulation. To say that rupa x has characteristic x is flawed. Rupa x = characteristic x. There is not a vanilla rupa that can take on any number of characteristics. The introduction of "rupas" is an abstraction. Anger = anger and only anger, green = green and only green, rupa = concept. The essence = the characteristic. When it is, it is, and when it ain't, it ain't. Wishing you both all the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Ken, > > KenO: > I think there are many definitions of essence, if you go to > dictionary.com. it gives you six meanings including your definition > mean but it also include this "The intrinsic or indispensable > properties that serve to characterize or identify something." > > Michael: > Yes, there are many definitions but all of them point towards something > intrinsic, inherent, that truly exists. The use of `essence' will always be > loaded with those connotations no matter how much explanation one gives. If > the intention of the commentators was to use sabhava/essence but did not > mean to transmit the idea of inherent, intrinsic, why then use the word? > > KenO: > I hope this clarifies the meaning of essence - it is distinct and > exist but it is conditioned and not a being > > Michael: > I agree with `distinct and exist and is conditioned' but cannot agree that > this is a definition of essence. It may be your particular way of defining > essence but is not the common usage. > > Metta > Michael 28553 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Five aggregates of sustenance/pancupadanakkhandha Dear Victor, Thank you very much for your well documented post on this sutta which I like very much. I also enjoyed the Pali you added, and I had not yet considered before the meaning of sustenance. Very good. with appreciation, Nina. op 01-01-2004 19:01 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > Here is some reflection on the theme of the five aggregate of > sustenance/panupadanakkhandha. > The word "upadanakkhandha" is a compound word made up of "upadana" > and "khandha." 28554 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood Dear Ken Ong, This passage always impresses me so much. This is the Path. all is included. Now something else. Just in case you have time, could you not come over from Singapore to Bgk Jan. 29-31? It would be so good to have you with us. Or else, Febr 7 ? You could join Jaran who also lives now in Singapore. Nina. op 01-01-2004 04:22 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > 'He who is possessed of constant virue. > Who has understanding, and is concentrated > Who is strenous and diligent as well > Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' (S.i.53)>> 28555 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Dear Andrew, Wonderful reminder. We can't hear enough of that, I feel. We may tell others: good or bad can be object of insight, but are we doing as we say? Thank you, Nina. op 01-01-2004 06:32 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > the results are worthwhile. > Personally speaking, I have gone from blaming myself for not being > able to keep "on the Path" to believing that, whatever happens (good > or bad) can become an object for Insight. To me, it's understanding > the present that really matters. Too much re-visiting the past can > cloud that. 28556 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Dan (Herman & All), --- "Dan D." wrote: > Sarah, how does your Paramatthajotikaa quote square with Christine's > DhsA quote that there must be [certain] knowledge that there really > is a sentient being that will receive the blow in order for the first > precept to be broken so that the M-A pill and the bombardier are off > the hook as far as the training precepts go? ..... Let’s put it this way: a sotapanna would have no thought of killing or encouraging others to do so, regardless of whether there is certain knowledge that there is life in the area about to be bombed or in the womb. Abstention (virati) from killing refers to abstention from taking any action intended to take life as I understand. Herman, “Human Being (manussaviggaha) means: from the mind’s first arising (pa.thama.m pa.tisandhicitta.m), from (the time of) consciousness becoming first manifest in a mother’s womb until the time of death,....” (Vin. 111, 73, vol1 Book of Discipline) “ ‘Life’ here (literally breathing thing), in common parlance, means a being; in its ultimate sense, living force (jivitindriya.m). And the term ‘life-taking’ is applied to the bodily and vocal doors of one who is conscious that a being is living, and who produces an effort to cut off the living force in that being.” (Atth., Expositor, Part11, ch5) “As to killing breathing things, firstly: a ‘breathing thing’ is a category-continuity involving the life faculty [jivitindriya], or it is a creature described derivatively upon that. When in the case of such a breathing thing someone perceives it as a breathing thing, then ‘killing breathing things’ is his choice to kill occurring in either the body door or speech door, and originating the active process of severing the life faculty.” (Paramatthajotikaa, Illustratator, ch11) The Paramatthajotikaa gives examples of laying traps or poison, the purpose of which is to kill. While the trap or poison is laid out, if any death occurs, the trapper is responsible. By implication, If one goes out fishing without any knowledge of whether there are fish in the waters, but intends to catch and kill any possible ones, it’s the same, I think. “There is a breathing thing, [the transgressor] is percipient of that as a breathing thing” (Paramatthajotikaa). I take this to mean that the fisherman knows that if there are any fish in the area, they are living things. There may be some grey areas we can never know about for sure and of course, often there is no knowledge of whether there is akusala kamma-patha through bodily action and speech or not. If life isn’t taken the action is not completed. However, we read that through the mind-door, “the mere harbouring of criminal intent to kill amounts to kamma, and that by ill-will, not by actual life-taking.” (Atth.Part11, ch 1V). Personally, I don’t think we can or need to always pinpoint what is akusala and what is akusala kamma patha. It’s more important to develop panna to understand the various namas and rupas regardless of the actions at these times. As you (Dan) have clearly indicated, by developing panna, the following of precepts and abstention from unwholesome courses of action will follow naturally rather than by rule-taking or fear. .... > A related question: If I don't believe that mosquitos qualify as > sentient beings, then I can kill them with abandon without breaking > the first precept, right? After all, I do not have knowledge that a > sentient being is killed... .... Hmm.... Good Qu. Certainly the wrong view and ill-will would be akusala kamma patha through the mind and as we know, the more ignorance the more weighty. Metta, Sarah p.s RobM would love this discussion;-) ====== 28557 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Five aggregates of sustenance/pancupadanakkhandha Hi Victor, Good to see you around again. You've been missed. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi all, > > Here is some reflection on the theme of the five aggregate of > sustenance/panupadanakkhandha. It might not be a very organized > writing, but might offer some points for discussion. .... I thought it was extremely well organized with a lot of excellent detail and very well written. Anumodana and well done! I've been considering the 'heaping' aspect of khandhas recently and I like the emphasis you give to 'sustaining the fire by the fuel' when you refer to the upadanakkhandha as the fuel and the desire and clinging as the fire. Excellent. I might quibble over some of the translated terms used in the passages, such as 'precept and practice' for silabbatupadanam and I'm still considering 'sustenance' for upadana. However, as you very helpfully give the Pali as well, it's all very clear. Metta, Sarah ======== 28558 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Single Excellent Night - and Year Hi Andrew (& Philip), Good to hear from you both and to read your helpful posts. --- Andrew wrote: > Personally speaking, I have gone from blaming myself for not being > able to keep "on the Path" to believing that, whatever happens (good > or bad) can become an object for Insight. To me, it's understanding > the present that really matters. Too much re-visiting the past can > cloud that. Do you agree? .... Yes! If there are conditions to think about the past, it's conditioned too. Still the present realities to be known at these times. Your comments are always helpful, Andrew. I hope you can continue to assist other newcomers in this way. Metta, Sarah ======= 28559 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > > Is it the Buddhist viewpoint that a sperm is not a living thing? > That would be a bit arbitrary, don't you think? > ========== Dear Herman, In fact it is in the Buddhist viewpoint that sperm is not living. Buddhist texts say that once the `blood'[egg] from the mother mix with the matter{sperm] from the father then consciousness may arise. "It amounts to no more than a drop of cream of ghee on a single fibre of a new-born [kid's] wool, and is known as the embryo in the first stage" (Visuddhimagga XVII 152). As I read the text new consciouness can arise with this matter at any time once the sperm has begun to enter the egg. It could be immediately or it could be hours later or possibly in rare situations even days later. But there has to be first the mixing of the sperm with the egg. Before that the egg or sperm alone is not a suitable support for consciousness. So in the case of the morning after pill there is no problem from a buddhist perspective when it works to stop sperm meeting egg. The possible killing only occurs if the sperm has already penetrated the egg and then it still depends on whether a new being is present. So one who takes the pill would not know whether they are killing or not. If they take it an hour or 2 after sex then the odds are it would stop conception before sperm had met egg. But it is taken up to 2-3 days after sex and at that stage the odds are higher that a new life is present. robertk 28560 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Larry (& Nina), An interesting point: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Nina: "Why not use the Abhidhamma terms straight?" > > Larry: Daily life, Nina, daily life. These terms are meaningless jargon > if we can't relate them to daily life. .... Hmmm..... I agree with this to some extent. At the same time, if we are always looking for novel ways to use the terms which accord with our very limited daily life knowledge and wisdom, we’re at risk of never getting a correct theoretical handle on how the terms are intended. Now this isn’t to say that we all need to hear and get a correct theoretical construct of the entire Abhidhamma, but I think the limited amount that is relevant and useful should be according to the texts we’re studying, otherwise instead of leading to greater clarity and opportunities for listening, hearing and considering them, they’re likely to result in greater confusion. I’m reminded that at moments of satipatthana, saddha and panna (confidence and wisdom) are balanced. In my case, when I follow other intellectual proliferations or else get lost in details I can’t really comprehend, I would say both the panna and saddha are too weak. The practice always comes back to awareness of the present reality. I appreciate your Qus and discussions, Larry. Keep it up! Metta, Sarah ====== I disagree with what you said > about salt. Salt is a nutritional substance, an example of the 8 > inseparables, produced by temperature. It is a mineral; not a plant. I'm > not very happy with plants not being considered to be alive. L. 28561 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 11:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sexual misconduct vs. sensual pleasures misconduct Hi Ben, --- Benjamin Jerome wrote: > Dear Everyone, > > Part of samma kammanto, right action, is: > > kamesu,micch'acara veramani > > For a translation of this I have seen both of these: > > Abstaining from sexual misconduct > and > Abstaining from misconduct in sensual pleasures. .... Good question. "In the expression 'wrong conduct in sensual pleasures,' [in this context], 'in sensual pleasures' means 'in matters of sexual intercourse'; 'wrong conduct' means 'base and truly blameworthy conduct.' The characteristic of 'wrong conduct in sensual pleasures' is the volition arising in the body-door, through the unlawful intention of trespassing upon a person to whom one has no right of going......" (Atthasalini, transl at The Expositor, PTS, Bk11, ch 5) Metta, Sarah ====== 28563 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 1, 2004 11:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Herman, --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Christine, > > What do you reckon about this ? > > From the Udana 1 as found at > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn1.htm .... I know you weren’t asking my opinion, but you may find it interesting (or not;-)) to look at the commentary details I included about Sangamaji before: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11897.html You’ve mentioned in your other discussions that:‘a far better indicator of what a person believes is what they do. What a person does is a teaching of what they believe.’ This is a good point and as Dan has emphasised ‘part of the fruit of understanding is that there is a decrease in attachment...’ and so on. We can test the teachings for ourselves. However, I think the Udana you quote from above is an excellent example of how others with their own views may interpret such actions and changes in a very different manner. This is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine at the moment, in case anyone hasn’t noticed;-) Also, I don’t think the point of the sutta is to suggest that we should all follow a lifestyle of ‘seclusion and inactivity’ to create better opportunities for insight into the Dhamma. The practice (patipatti) you refer to elsewhere is the understanding of conditioned realities and the danger of attachment. I’ll sign off with another sutta relevant for a few of your threads. Very good banner examples btw, Herman;-) ;-) Happy NY to all your family. Metta, Sarah http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn05-005.html Then, having understood that "This is Mara the Evil One," she replied to him in verses: “If even a hundred-thousand rapists came across me like this, I wouldn't stir a hair. I'd feel no terror,” More discussion when we get to Bhikkhuni samyutta (SN5), I’m sure. ============================================= 28564 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 0:49am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Christine, (James & All), I greatly appreciated all the posts on SN1, quotes and commentary notes, which I’ve only just caught up with;-) I know very little about devas and devatas. Anyway, a few bits to add here: --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello all, > > 1. One thing (trivial perhaps) that I notice translators differ on, > is the gender of Devas. Bhikkhu Bodhi invests this one with a > masculine gender, whereas Thanissaros' translation makes her female. > Is there anything known about gender issues among the devas? ..... I’ve been having a look through the Vimana stories and commentary (transl by P.Masefield, PTS) which is all about devas and devatas and their previous meritorious deeds which have resulted in their present heavenly abodes. Definitely they have genders. All, I can say is that the devatas as opposed to the devas seem to be female, but I’m sure BB must have had a reason for his choice. Maybe Nina can help. One of these is Surima (discussed before) -now a devata: “Thus I am a devata who sees the Deathless, a savaka of the Tathagata, of the Unrivalled One, one who sees Dhamma, established in the first fruit, a sotapanna and, moreover, there is for me no miserable destiny.” All the devas and devatas in these stories have ‘excesive splendour, being of variegated colours and shapes’ and so on. They are always asked what great deeds they performed as humans which have resulted in ‘such complexion’ and ‘shining majesty’ which ‘radiates in all directions’. We read that many of the recitations were given by Mahamogallana who of course was foremost amongst the disciples in supernatural powers (iddhi). He’d take a deva-tour, question the devatas and combine questions and answers, making them known to the Buddha who would address the monks. Even Sakka’s verses were spoken by Mahamoggalana. These were designated as the Vimana Stories (also verse form) and recited with the other texts as part of the Khuddaka Nikaya. Perhaps the verses and accounts in Devatasamyuta were also given by Mahamoggallana? He visited the first devata mentioned in the text. She had performed an offering to an elder and reflected joyfully on the dhamma talk and her deed. Mahamoggalana could see the good and bad deeds performed and usually the devatas also knew the deeds performed. We read that ‘O adorned one’ and so on indicate the ‘distinctive splendour’ and excellent ‘existence’, ‘for just as a glittering golden ornament, put together by a well trained master of his craft even, and itself inlaid with gems and jwels that blaze forth in a network of divers rays, shines, but not exclusively, even so does this individual personality, shining to its four corners....’ and so on. Just looked at the clock. Time to run as Num used to say... Metta, Sarah ===== 28565 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:24am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Dear Sarah,and all, These were great bits! Thankyou. I thought I'd post another sutta on Crossing the Flood, but this time from the Devaputtasamyutta - Connected Discourses with Young Devas. (how old is an old deva?) I also found another bit from Bhikkhu Bodhi about male and female devas. Candana, a Young Deva (Devaputta), Crosses the Flood: 2 15(5) Devaputtasamyutta - Candana Standing to one side, the young deva Candana addressed the Blessed One in verse: "Who here crosses over the flood, Unwearying by day and night? Who does not sink in the deep, Without support, without a hold?" ]n.164] "One always perfect in virtue, Endowed with wisdom, well concentrated, One energetic and resolute Crosses the flood so hard to cross. "One who desists from sensual perception, Who has overcome the fetter of form, Who has destroyed delight in existence - He does not sink in the deep." [n.165] Bhikkhu Bodhi says in a general note n.141: "Devaputtasamyutta means literally "son of the devas", but since devas are depicted as arising in their celestial abodes by way of spontaneous birth, I translate the compound simply as "young deva." Spk: They are reborn in the laps (anka) of devas. The males are called sons of the devas (devaputtaa); the females, daughters of the devas (devadhiitaro); When they are not known by name it is said, "a certain devataa" (as in the preceding samyutta); but those who are known by name are referred to as "a son of the devas named So-and-So" (as here)." ======== Christine: Are they are born as full-size or miniature versions of an adult deva? ... it could induce an anxiety complex if a deva was always wondering when a full size unknown adult deva was going to 'pop' into existence on their lap ... I wonder if, as in this life where one generally has forty weeks for the parent to get used to the idea, there are any signs and symptoms (even if not physical) heralding a deva arrival? And for what purpose are some male and some female, if there is spontaneous birth? How can one tell a male from a female? I suppose they know, which may or may not matter to them. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine, (James & All), > > I greatly appreciated all the posts on SN1, quotes and commentary notes, > which I've only just caught up with;-) I know very little about devas and > devatas. Anyway, a few bits to add here: > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello all, > > > > 1. One thing (trivial perhaps) that I notice translators differ on, > > is the gender of Devas. Bhikkhu Bodhi invests this one with a > > masculine gender, whereas Thanissaros' translation makes her female. > > Is there anything known about gender issues among the devas? > ..... > I've been having a look through the Vimana stories and commentary (transl > by P.Masefield, PTS) which is all about devas and devatas and their > previous meritorious deeds which have resulted in their present heavenly > abodes. Definitely they have genders. All, I can say is that the devatas > as opposed to the devas seem to be female, but I'm sure BB must have had a > reason for his choice. Maybe Nina can help. > > One of these is Surima (discussed before) -now a devata: > > "Thus I am a devata who sees the Deathless, a savaka of the Tathagata, of > the Unrivalled One, one who sees Dhamma, established in the first fruit, a > sotapanna and, moreover, there is for me no miserable destiny." > > All the devas and devatas in these stories have `excesive splendour, being > of variegated colours and shapes' and so on. They are always asked what > great deeds they performed as humans which have resulted in `such > complexion' and `shining majesty' which `radiates in all directions'. > > We read that many of the recitations were given by Mahamogallana who of > course was foremost amongst the disciples in supernatural powers (iddhi). > He'd take a deva-tour, question the devatas and combine questions and > answers, making them known to the Buddha who would address the monks. Even > Sakka's verses were spoken by Mahamoggalana. These were designated as the > Vimana Stories (also verse form) and recited with the other texts as part > of the Khuddaka Nikaya. Perhaps the verses and accounts in Devatasamyuta > were also given by Mahamoggallana? > > He visited the first devata mentioned in the text. She had performed an > offering to an elder and reflected joyfully on the dhamma talk and her > deed. Mahamoggalana could see the good and bad deeds performed and usually > the devatas also knew the deeds performed. > > We read that `O adorned one' and so on indicate the `distinctive > splendour' and excellent `existence', `for just as a glittering golden > ornament, put together by a well trained master of his craft even, and > itself inlaid with gems and jwels that blaze forth in a network of divers > rays, shines, but not exclusively, even so does this individual > personality, shining to its four corners....' and so on. > > Just looked at the clock. Time to run as Num used to say... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 28566 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Mike, Mike: The only point I meant to make had to do with sabhaava being (perhaps) the distinguishing characteristic of what can vs. cannot be the object of satipa.t.thaana, as opposed to denoting some kind of essence or reality in a western philosophical sense. I think we might agree that the latter is not a particularly useful avenue of discussion. Michael: Seems we are more or less back to where we started. As I mentioned before, in my view, the distinguishing characteristic that one hopes to unveil through insight are dukkha, anicca and anatta, not sabhava. I don’t know what you mean by ‘western philosophical sense’. My argument against paramatha dhammas/sabhava has been influenced by the thinking of the madhyamaka philosophy which is not western. Metta Michael _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 28567 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Ken, Ken: Lets get into the discussion again, could you point to me which five khandhas that dont truly exist. They definitely truly exist but dependent on conditions. Michael: You see Ken, there is a fundamental contradiction in your affirmation, something that truly exists cannot be subject to conditions. Those are two mutually exclusive propositions. Just think of a more ‘concrete’ object. Lets say a table, a chair, etc. To say that any of those objects truly exist one has to identify something in those objects that make them what they are. But if you separate the parts of a table there is no table to be found in them. The table has nothing in it that can be taken as its ‘tableness’ that justifies the table being something in its own right. On the contrary, the table only exists because of the internal conditions (like its parts and the work which was put into making the table) and external conditions (our convention of naming it as a table and the use given to it). The exact same logic applies to the khandhas and to any other object or phenomena in the conditioned world. They don’t truly exist, they only exist as conditioned realities. Ken: To me there is a load of difference between what exist on its own right and what exists dependent on conditions. Michael: You are absolutely right. In the conditioned world there is nothing that exists in its own right. Except as fabrications in our ignorant mind. Everything depends and is subject to conditions. Metta Michael _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 28568 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 2:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hello Herman, Herman: To me, the problem lies in the formulation. To say that rupa x has characteristic x is flawed. Rupa x = characteristic x. Michael: This is a difficult area because our mind is so deluded in assuming that objects own their characteristics. A characteristic is a distinctive feature that distinguishes the object but it is a flaw to assume that such a characteristic is part of the object or inherent in the object. To be absolutely coherent with dependent arising it has to be said that the characteristic arises and ceases subject to conditions the same way as the object. Our minds will not easily accept that but it is important to see it that way to avoid grasping at any form of existence. Everything is conditioned and nothing is truly existent. Metta Michael 28569 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 2:44am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael M: You see Ken, there is a fundamental contradiction in your affirmation, something that truly exists cannot be subject to conditions. Those are two mutually exclusive propositions. Just think of a more ‘concrete’ object. Lets say a table, a chair, etc. To say that any of those objects truly exist one has to identify something in those objects that make them what they are. But if you separate the parts of a table there is no table to be found in them. The table has nothing in it that can be taken as its ‘tableness’ that justifies the table being something in its own right. On the contrary, the table only exists because of the internal conditions (like its parts and the work which was put into making the table) and external conditions (our convention of naming it as a table and the use given to it). The exact same logic applies to the khandhas and to any other object or phenomena in the conditioned world. They don’t truly exist, they only exist as conditioned realities k: Hmmm a chair or a table is not the same as five khandhas bc chairs and tables are mental constructs just like the self we have is a mental construct of the khandhas. Therefore not an equivalent comparision. Nevertheless lets talk about chair, even though the chair is gone but when we take out the parts, do the parts of the chair exist or do not exists. Can we say if the chair made of wood that wood does not exist? Breaking it down to atoms - does it exist. Even if atoms are energies, do they exist? Can such energy arise on its accord? Paramatthas are irreducible, hence by breaking the chair till energy is only consider the paramattha of a chair, hence I assume energy as irreducible for matter, then can we say that energy exist or can it exists on its own accord, or does it exist out of conditions. k: Hence I counter proposed how about feeling and ignorance. By using your logic of your discussion and assume feelings as chairs? Can feeling arise on its on accord? Definitely no. But the problem with your logic of argument is that feelings that is immaterial cannnot be broken down further. Similarly can ignorance be further reduce. But does ignorance exist, IMHO yes, as it is in the dependent origination but does it exist on it own or arise by uncaused? No. As I say before, I am as concern as you on this issue bc this will mean if you are right then I am not doing the right thing. Hence I will be very happy if you can illustrate to me on how do your logic you proposed on the chair can be apply on the five khandhas. kind regards Ken O 28570 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 2:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hi Michael With regard to this statement to Herman, "Everything is conditioned and nothing is truly existent." Firstly nothing truly exist will meant everything is nil, zero, nothing so how does something that do not exist can be conditioned. Secondly in another way of dicussion, Can you denied the existence of ignorance, rupas, feelings that are conditioned. Can we say here this feeling of mine do not exist bc it is conditioned? Then you should not be feeling pleasant or unpleasant bc even thuogh it is conditioned but it does not exist. kind regards Ken O 28571 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi Larry <> Salt is indeed conventional not a paramattha and only when salt is digested it becomes a nutriment (an 8 inseparable) for the body. So this is still applicable to daily life. Let me quote you from the commentary to Abhidhammattha Sangaha "Nutriment which is the viscous liquid of edible food understand as the essence of the fluid that flows through the various parts [of the body] acting as cause which substain the body and its faculties, is here called materiality of food" The usage of organic and inorganic can be confusing, let me quote you an example. Salt is inorganic so does the earth elememt of salt considered as inorganic? Likewise our body is organic does the earth element of our body considered organic. kind regards Ken O 28572 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:16am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Ken, Ken: a chair or a table is not the same as five khandhas bc chairs and tables are mental constructs just like the self we have is a mental construct of the khandhas Michael: Careful here, they are not just ‘mental constructs’ because this is equivalent to idealism, that things only exist in the mind. It is a thinking similar to the Yogacara school of Buddhism but it is not what the Buddha taught. All those things exist as conditioned realities, they perform their functions, you can sit on a chair, eat using a table, etc. There is no difference between khandhas and a table. They are all conditioned, arise and fall away. Ken: Nevertheless lets talk about chair, even though the chair is gone but when we take out the parts, do the parts of the chair exist or do not exists. Can we say if the chair made of wood that wood does not exist? Breaking it down to atoms - does it exist. Even if atoms are energies, do they exist? Can such energy arise on its accord? Michael: Yes, they all exist as conditioned realities, they don’t arise on their own accord. As conditioned realities they definitely exist. It is important to understand the difference between conditioned existence and inherent existence. Ken: Paramatthas are irreducible. But the problem with your logic of argument is that feelings that is immaterial cannnot be broken down further Michael: Nagasena in his dialogue with King Meandros used the example of a chariot, I have used the example of the table, but the idea is the same. Conditioned phenomena can be divided into parts and are subject to various kinds of conditions. Material or immaterial is really irrelevant, it is just our limitation in imagining those same principles applying to more abstract things. Now, if you say that paramathas are irreducible it means that they must have something different from the table. The table is conditioned and can be divided into parts. Why would this not apply to the paramathas? The only possible explanation is that the paramathas have something the table doesn’t. And what could that be? It can only be some kind of intrinsic nature, some own substance which not only cannot be further reduced but also is not subject to conditions, and hence you prove my point. Ken: I am as concern as you on this issue bc this will mean if you are right then I am not doing the right thing Michael: In my view as long as you regard the Abhidhamma as a map of the human psychology, that is safe ground. The moment the Abhidhamma is used to derive metaphysical concepts then there is a big danger of falling into the extremes of existence/non existence rejected by the Buddha. Metta Michael 28573 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hello Ken, Ken: With regard to this statement to Herman, "Everything is conditioned and nothing is truly existent." Firstly nothing truly exist will meant everything is nil, zero, nothing so how does something that do not exist can be conditioned Michael: Nothing truly exists means nothing exists by its own power, nothing has an intrinsic, inherent existence. But if you think about the table, the table is conditioned (I think we agreed on that) but it exists, it performs a number of functions, you can experience that, so therefore we say it exists as a conditioned phenomena. Metta Michael 28574 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:50am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael > Michael: > Careful here, they are not just ‘mental constructs’ because this is > equivalent to idealism, that things only exist in the mind. It is a > thinking similar to the Yogacara school of Buddhism but it is not > what the Buddha taught. All those things exist as conditioned realities, they perform their functions, you can sit on a chair, eat using a table, etc. There is no difference between khandhas and a table. They are all conditioned, arise and fall away. k: If a chair is not a mental construct then you should not say there is a chair, you should say this thing (chair) is of four legs, can made of wood, steel etc.. However I do not say that earth element of the chair does not exist. I do not know Yogacara very well but from what you say I can derive that they assume that materiality exist only in the mind. > Michael: > Yes, they all exist as conditioned realities, they don’t arise on > their own accord. As conditioned realities they definitely exist. It is important to understand the difference between conditioned existence and inherent existence. k: Yes that is what I am saying about sabhava, they all exist as conditioned realities. Inhernet existence which I have quoted you can meant two ways in the english meanings, either independent or a characteristic. If you choose to believe it is an independent existence then that is your choice which I feel as unfair to infer on what the commentary and Abhidhamma texts say as a characteristics. > Michael: > Nagasena in his dialogue with King Meandros used the example of a > chariot, I have used the example of the table, but the idea is the same. Conditioned phenomena can be divided into parts and are subject to various kinds of conditions. Material or immaterial is really irrelevant, it is just our limitation in imagining those same principles applying to more abstract things. Now, if you say that paramathas are irreducible it means that they must have something different from the table. The table is conditioned and can be divided into parts. Why would this not apply to the paramathas? The only possible explanation is that the paramathas have something the table doesn’t. And what could that be? It can only be some kind of intrinsic nature, some own substance which not only cannot be further reduced but also is not subject to conditions, and hence you prove my point. k: Please answer me this question if feelings can be further reduce, dont you think Buddha will have said it long time again. I like the chariot method used by Nagasena however, if you look at it, it was using chariot as a metaphor that describe the five aggregates but he does not break down the five aggregates bc I know he cannot. If Buddha did not further break it down, therefore I am confident you cannot neither does Nagarjuna. Furthermore you are comparing an apple with an orange. Bc table can be reduce but paramathas cannot. No where in the sutta Buddha say that feelings are make of this and that. There are 108 types of feelings but there are not 108 parts of feeling. The reason that paramathas cannot be reduced anymore does not imply that it exist on its own right without caused. I have given you two quotes from commentary that shown sabhava that are sunna and condition. Also bc you assumed that the commentary and Abhidhamma sabhava as an independent entity, I would like to request your kindself to furnish me an example in these texts. kind regards Ken O 28575 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:54am Subject: Paramatha Dhammas and Concepts “There has to be the clear distinction between concepts and ‘paramattha dhammas’ (ultimate realities). We *think* there are conventional things. In truth they don’t exist except in our imaginations.” This seems to be a prevalent thinking among the Abhidhamma aficionados. The teachings of the Buddha, in his own words, should be regarded as a middle way. I would advance that there are two middle ways the Buddha refers to. The first is in relation to conduct, and it has recently been explored in a series of mails in relation to sila, precepts, etc. The second middle way refers to the philosophical content of the teachings. The distinction between concepts and paramatha dhammas, mentioned above, points towards a philosophical middle way which is similar to someone with a perfectly normal average temperature having the upper body in the freezer and the lower body in the oven. Concepts, considered as something that only exist in the imagination point towards idealism, or in other words that things do not exist except in our minds and this is the extreme of non existence rejected by the Buddha. On the other hand the idea of paramatha dhammas point towards something that truly exists, that is an ultimate reality, or in other words it has some kind of element which is inherent. This is the extreme of existence rejected by the Buddha. Therefore combining two extremes one expects to arrive at a philosophical middle way. This is not what the Buddha had in mind. The philosophical middle way proposed by the Buddha is the application of conditionality to all phenomena without any exclusion whatsoever. So called paramatha dhammas and concepts have exactly the same nature, they are conditioned, subject to arising and cessation. And if there is conditionality, essence and ultimate realities do not apply. The ultimate reality is that there is no ultimate reality. Metta Michael Metta Michael 28576 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hi Michael > Michael: > Nothing truly exists means nothing exists by its own power, nothing > has an intrinsic, inherent existence. But if you think about the table, the table is conditioned (I think we agreed on that) but it exists, it performs a number of functions, you can experience that, so therefore we say it exists as a conditioned phenomena. k: Ah Michael when you say a table perfroms a number of functions, doesn't these functions are characteristics of the table. Can we say a table exist without these functions vice versa can these functions exist without the table. Inherent can be define as existing as an essential constituent or characteristic. Ain't you just define that the table has intrinsic existence. Can you deny that if these functions are not of the table, then these characteristic should not be performed, then it should not a table at all. A table functions can only be manifested when there is table, so this is the same as what it is meant as intrinsic or inherent characteristics. kind regards Ken O 28577 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Ken, Ken: Please answer me this question if feelings can be further reduce, dont you think Buddha will have said it long time again. I like the chariot method used by Nagasena however, if you look at it, it was using chariot as a metaphor that describe the five aggregates but he does not break down the five aggregates bc I know he cannot. If Buddha did not further break it down, therefore I am confident you cannot neither does Nagarjuna. Furthermore you are comparing an apple with an orange. Bc table can be reduce but paramathas cannot. Michael: The purpose of the teachings of the Buddha was not ontological but the end of suffering. For this purpose the five khandhas are more than enough for the majority of the people. Sariputta was capable of reducing it further to cetasikas but he was an exception. Can there be further reduction beyond cetasikas? There has to be otherwise the cetasika is not conditioned and becomes a paramatha with some kind of essence, and this contradicts dependent origination. Apples and oranges are not the same but they are also conditioned and can be reduced. How far can they be reduced? Modern science is still struggling with this, so there is no answer. Metta Michael 28578 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:18am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hello Ken, Ken: A table functions can only be manifested when there is table, so this is the same as what it is meant as intrinsic or inherent characteristics. Michael: The functions of a table is a matter of convention. Someone may use it for eating while other who never saw a table before may think it is a bed and so on. Function has nothing to do with intrinsic characteristic. Metta Michael 28579 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:22am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [James] Dear James, We are in agreement about the importance of the Vinaya and about the Buddha making a wise decision in creating and implementing it. We can't help but be enormously thankful to him for establishing the Sangha and the rules by which it is organized. The gratitude extends to the Sangha, who have lived the Vinaya and preserved the teachings for these many centuries. In my opinion, Buddha did not make a mistake for creating rules to govern and preserve the sangha. If he had not done so, I don't think we'd have ever heard the word "Buddha" or "Dhamma". I also concur with your observation that "...that the Buddhist layperson's concept of the `Middle Way' has veered too much to the pleasure end of the spectrum," at least with many in the West. This is especially true of those who have little exposure to Buddhism beyond Zhuang-zi. Yeah, yeah, Zhuang-zi is not Buddhist, but there is something deeply attractive to the Western counterculture about words like: "Leave off, leave off this teaching men virtue! Dangerous, dangerous to mark off the ground and run! Fool, fool -- don't spoil my walking! I walk a crooked way -- don't step on my feet....All men know the use of the useful, but nobody knows the use of the useless." And then, they read S. Suzuki [Zen], "The best way to control people is to encourage them to be mischievous....First let them do what they want, and watch them. This is the best policy." The conclusion? "Cool! Buddhism is about breaking free from social constraints. I'm a Buddhist. Pass me the bong!" This would a gross misconception of the Middle Way. In fact, it is one of the extremes that the Middle Way is intended to avoid. The other extreme is that notion that the path consists of rule following (provided, of course, that the rules are good ones!) The path is straight and narrow -- so straight and narrow that it is quite difficult to stay on it for more than a few moments every now and then. And the path is only tread on when there is no effort to follow rules. Please don't read this as saying that throwing out rules puts one on the path, only that when on the path there is no thought of following any rules or rituals. You write: "You keep emphasizing in this thread that the following of rules, without an understanding of them, isn't going to create wisdom." What I'm trying to emphasize is that wisdom is not the result of following a formula or list of rules, and that the 8fp (="Middle Way") is the narrow path to wisdom and purification. The "understanding" I keep bringing up is not "understanding of the rules" but understanding the nature of reality. When there is understanding, the path is followed. When there is no understanding, the path is not followed. At most moments of the day, for most of us there is no understanding and no following of the path. This remains true whether we are sitting quietly in an intensive meditation retreat, studying Abhidhamma, discussing Dhamma with wise teachers, doing good deeds in the community, or doing whatever else we may be doing. A danger in looking at the path as a set of rules or instructions is that it becomes quite easy to conjure up a person who is trying to follow these rules so is on the path. An example: Suppose the notoriously fictitious Nadsemaj sits down to meditate for one hour in the morning. Is he really following the path during that hour simply by virtue of his sitting and trying? If you imagine a person sitting there putting out all that effort with the intention of purifying the mind, it is easy to imagine that he is treading the path. And vice versa -- If you imagine the path to be a set of rules or instructions that include such things as "sit quietly, legs crossed, keep the attention focused on the area between the upper lip and the nostrils, ...", then it is natural to envision this person who is following the instructions and is therefore following the path. But there is no room on the path for a "person", whether that "person" "follows directions" or not! Instead... At which moments does the path arise? "Hmmm... Not now because the mind is wandering (uddhacca). Not now because there is irritation at the talking in the back of the room (dosa). Not now because there is a wondering whether anyone notices how still I'm sitting (mana). Not now because I want this monkey mind to calm down so I can enjoy real peace (lobha). Oh! NOW there is because this sensation of illumination must be the path (moha -> not now either)." How important it is to understand what is and what is not the path! If it is misconceived, it will not be properly recognized or followed. You follow your previous comments immediately with some questions: "So,is the alternative better? Let people do whatever they want? Is that going to create wisdom?" Of course not! Junking rules of civilized behavior and cultivation of mental discipline in favor of officially hiring lobha and dosa as masters is not recommended! Rules and instructions are extremely valuable and important because they help support an organized and civil society and an organized and civil mind. I'd even go so far to say that the rules and instructions can help keep us in the vicinity of the path by taking some of the edge off the quasi-ubiquitous akusala moments encountered throughout the day. BUT this is distinctly different from the path or from saying that conscientiously following the rules and instructions give rise to the path. You close your comments with: "The Vinaya is for the well being of the sangha. Some monks will understand the wisdom of the rules and some won't, but that doesn't mean they all shouldn't follow them." Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu! I concur 100%. Dan 28580 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:32am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael k: I like immediate response ;-) cheers. > > Michael: > The purpose of the teachings of the Buddha was not ontological but > the end of suffering. k: Definitely the it is about end of suffering. I puzzled, I thought you are the one who started this ontological question that sabhava is a being. M: For this purpose the five khandhas are more than enough for the majority of the people. Sariputta was capable of reducing it further to cetasikas but he was an exception. Can there be further reduction beyond cetasikas? There has to be otherwise the cetasika is not conditioned and becomes a paramatha with some kind of essence, and this contradicts dependent origination. Apples and oranges are not the same but they are also conditioned and can be reduced. How far can they be reduced? Modern science is still struggling with this, so there is no answer. k: Ah Micheal please note that cetasikas are khandhas and not further reduction of khandhas. When you say cetasikas contradicts dependent origination then there is no dependent origination to start with at all bc ignorance, feelings are all cetasikas. Also the principle of dependent origination is about conditionality. If you look at those anicent text that it does not say feelings can start on it own, neither does it say that characteristics of feelings can start on its own. It does say feelings exist due to conditionality. kind regards Ken O 28581 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:39am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hi Michael > Michael: > The functions of a table is a matter of convention. Someone may use > it for eating while other who never saw a table before may think it is a bed and so on. Function has nothing to do with intrinsic characteristic. k: If they do not perform these functions, then dont you think a table is practically of no used. Then in the first place we also cannot say it is a table bc it does not have distinct functions to start with. All these functions as you mention that are a matter of convention like eating or bed or even making as an music instructment (if imaginations are good) are also manifested by the fact that there is a table there. A table got to have existence before any functions can be performed. Just like a feelings got to be existed before pain or not pain can be experience. And this also proved another point that table is a construct bc some pple may used it as a bed, so it should not a table. kind regards Ken O 28582 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: anapanasati 9 c Hi Nina Sorry to bother you, as I was pasting these notes by you into one file I seem cannot find anapanasati 9b or the numbering is wrong, 9c should be 9b. kind regards Ken O 28583 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 8:02am Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept [Christine] Hi Christine, It's nice to hear back from you! I know that you seriously wrestle with the Dhamma and really aren't the type to go looking for loopholes, and I apologize if sounded like I thought that's what you were doing. As to "consciousness of there being a living creature", I find it hard to fathom that intending to kill a living being and then actually killing it would not constitute immoral action, even if there is not certain knowledge of the being. The examples of M-A pill, bombardier, and mosquito killer who doesn't believe mosquitos qualify as "living beings" come to mind. In his comments in Asl., after discussing the five criteria you listed, writes: "Those desirous of details should look up the Saamantapaasaadikaa, the Commentary on the Vinaya." There may be a discussion about what that "knowledge" criterion really means. I like Sarah's comments about it: "Let's put it this way: a sotapanna would have no thought of killing or encouraging others to do so, regardless of whether there is certain knowledge that there is life in the area about to be bombed or in the womb. Abstention (virati) from killing refers to abstention from taking any action intended to take life as I understand." And "If life isn't taken the action is not completed. However, we read that through the mind-door, 'the mere harbouring of criminal intent to kill amounts to kamma, and that by ill-will, not by actual life-taking.' (Atth.Part11, ch 1V). Personally, I don't think we can or need to always pinpoint what is akusala and what is akusala kamma patha. It's more important to develop panna to understand the various namas and rupas regardless of the actions at these times." > So, the intention to kill (the ordering of and the dropping of bombs > on houses) is akusala and will create akusala accumulations (?) - > even though it may or may not break the Precept (depending on whether > there are beings killed)? I wonder what "the precept" means? Doesn't "precept" mean some sort of pledge or stated committment? If I pledge not to kill living beings, isn't my understanding of "kill" and "living being" central to my pledge (i.e. the precept I actually take)? Hmmmm... This is sounding a bit too philosophical for me! > If the Precept is only against actual > killing - then anything less than the death of a being (such as > hurting, disabling) doesn't break it? That seems right. > Intentions and mind states are the important things within > Christianity and are equivalent to completed actions. The Lord Jesus > said: "You have heard that it was said to people long ago, 'Do not > murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' > 'But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be > subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca', > [shows contempt] is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who > says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." > > Does the Lord Buddha say anything like this? Interesting question. Buddha does say that volition is kamma, and that volition rooted in dosa is akusala, and that bad kamma risks akusala-vipaka. And isn't akusala-vipaka hellish? Metta, Dan 28584 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 8:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Howard] Great comments, Howard, but where did the "mere" come from in "mere rules and rituals"? I don't see it in the Pali. Do you throw it in because you are resistant to the idea of dropping an attachment to rules and rituals? And I have no disagreement whatsoever with your comment: "To observe rules that are useful and well given and that, when followed, can have auspicious consequences is simply good sense." If one were to say: "it is a bad idea to follow sensible rules," I'd be sorely tempted to respond with, "You fool!" and risk suffering the fires of hell. Also, you write: "But, certainly he didn't teach actions for 45 years (in sutta and vinaya) only to advise against these actions." Right again! Did I write anything that suggest otherwise? Please help me find such a comment so I can correct it! Metta and mudita, Dan 28585 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 8:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation Hello Ken, Ken, I rest my case. I don't think my arguments were good enough to convince you. It is my lack of skill. I wish you be happy and will talk again in the future. Metta Michael >From: Kenneth Ong >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics - formulation >Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:02:18 +0000 (GMT) > >Hi Michael > > > > Michael: > > Nothing truly exists means nothing exists by its own power, nothing > > has an intrinsic, inherent existence. But if you think about the >table, the table is conditioned (I think we agreed on that) but it >exists, it performs a number of functions, you can experience that, >so therefore we say it exists as a conditioned phenomena. > >k: Ah Michael when you say a table perfroms a number of functions, >doesn't these functions are characteristics of the table. Can we say >a table exist without these functions vice versa can these functions >exist without the table. Inherent can be define as existing as an >essential constituent or characteristic. Ain't you just define that >the table has intrinsic existence. Can you deny that if these >functions are not of the table, then these characteristic should not >be performed, then it should not a table at all. A table functions >can only be manifested when there is table, so this is the same as >what it is meant as intrinsic or inherent characteristics. > > >kind regards >Ken O 28586 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 8:54am Subject: "Kamada" was (Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood ) Hi Dan, Some of the things you wrote in this post really cracked me up!;-)) I like your sense of humor. However, your position on this matter is perplexing to me. You basically agree with everything I wrote about the importance of the Vinaya and following rules but then state "And the path is only tread on when there is no effort to follow rules." What? It seems to me like you are trying to have it both ways. Also, I think your definition of `path' is far too narrow. By your definition, only arahants are the ones following the path. The path is not the goal and the path is a gradual one that meets people where they are. Now, about the example you gave of your fictitious meditator "Nadsemaj" (JamesDan backwards…cute;-) yes I do believe that he is following the path by sitting in meditation for one hour, even with all the inappropriate mind junk he encounters. Okay, here I go again! (James the Poster Boy for meditation practice! ;- )). Since we have now moved onto the Devaputtasamyutta for those in the SN study group, I will quote a sutta from there: SN II, 6(6) "Kamada" At Savatthi. Standing to one side, the young deva Kamada said to the Blessed One: "Hard to do, Blessed One! Very hard to do, Blessed One" 149 "They do even what is hard to do, [O Kamada," said the Blessed One,] "The trainees endowed with virtue, steadfast. For one who has entered the homeless life Contentment brings along happiness." "That is hard to gain, Blessed One, namely contentment." "They gain even what is hard to gain, [O Kamada," said the Blessed One,] "Who delight in calming the mind, Whose minds, day and night, Take delight in development." "That is hard to concentrate, Blessed One, namely, the mind." "They concentrate even what is hard to concentrate, [O Kamada," said the Blessed One,] "Who delight in calming the faculties. Having cut through the net of Death, The noble ones, O Kamada, go their way." "The path is impassable and uneven, Blessed One."150 "Though the path is impassable and uneven, The noble ones walk it, Kamada. The ignoble ones fall down head first, Right there on the uneven path, But the path of the noble ones is even, For the noble are even amidst the uneven." Note 149: Spk: This young deva, it is said, had been a meditator in a previous life, but he had thick defilements and thus could suppress them only with much effort. Though he did the work of an ascetic, because his supporting conditions were weak he passed away and took rebirth in the deva world without having reached the plane of the noble ones. He came to the Blessed One's presence to proclaim the difficulty of the ascetic life. Note 150: Spk: Although the noble path is neither impassable nor uneven (duggamo visamo) this is said because there are many impediments in the preliminary portion of the path. This wasn't really much of a pep talk by the Buddha but he didn't give pep talks, he just told it like it is. Yes, meditation is difficult but the noble ones do it even though it is difficult. There are no guarantees of success. I identify a lot with Kamada because meditation is difficult for me also; I believe I have a lot of defilements. But that is no reason to stop or whine about it, I just continue to do it. Over the years I have seen slow but steady progress. Dan, if you don't want to meditate then don't. If you think that to practice meditation is just following silly rules, okay. Think what you want and do what you want. I will continue to follow the rules as well as I can because I see the wisdom of them, not because anyone is forcing me to. If you think I am wrong, okay (my parents think I am wrong too so you are in good company! ;-)). Metta, James 28587 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 9:51am Subject: "Kamada" was (Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood ) James, I have only a few moments to write now, but I'll write more later. "Path" is a technical term, and it is important to understand clearly what it means. Lots of things may be good things to do and not be "path". Dan 28588 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 1/2/04 4:54:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Michael: > You see Ken, there is a fundamental contradiction in your affirmation, > something that truly exists cannot be subject to conditions. Those are two > mutually exclusive propositions. Just think of a more ‘concrete’ object. > Lets say a table, a chair, etc. To say that any of those objects truly exist > > one has to identify something in those objects that make them what they are. > > But if you separate the parts of a table there is no table to be found in > them. The table has nothing in it that can be taken as its ‘tableness’ that > > justifies the table being something in its own right. On the contrary, the > table only exists because of the internal conditions (like its parts and the > > work which was put into making the table) and external conditions (our > convention of naming it as a table and the use given to it). The exact same > logic applies to the khandhas and to any other object or phenomena in the > conditioned world. They don’t truly exist, they only exist as conditioned > realities. > ========================== Actually, Michael, I think you may have just perfectly hit on the distinction between pa~n~natti and paramattha dhamma! You wrote "To say that any of those objects truly exist one has to identify something in those objects that make them what they are. But if you separate the parts of a table there is no table to be found in them. The table has nothing in it that can be taken as its ‘tableness’ that justifies the table being something in its own right." Now what you say here is quite correct. Actually, there is no table at all, except as the intended but not actually existing referent of a thought constructed from numerous experiences. However, what you said does not apply to a paramattha dhamma such as a hardness. There *are* no parts to a hardness. To find a hardness, there are no parts to look in. It simply is an arising and ceasing condition, a phenomenon. And while there is no "tableness" to be found in a so called table or in any of its parts, there *is* "hardness" to be found in hardness - it is the hardness, itself! A hardness is a condition that, when arisen, exists. But it doesn't exist on its own, or from its own side, because its very existence is completely dependent on the coming together of other conditions, and, so, it is a "dependent existent". Now I don't know what *you* mean by "true existence". If you mean independent existence, well, there is no such thing, which I know is a proposition with which you concur. The only *true* existence, actually, is dependent existence. Hardness is a dependent existent, and it is such that it is distinguishable (though not separable from or independent of) other dependent existents. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28589 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] the 8 inseparables Hi, Ken and Larry - In a message dated 1/2/04 8:00:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Salt is indeed conventional not a paramattha and only when salt is > digested it becomes a nutriment (an 8 inseparable) for the body. So > this is still applicable to daily life. > > Let me quote you from the commentary to Abhidhammattha Sangaha > "Nutriment which is the viscous liquid of edible food understand as > the essence of the fluid that flows through the various parts [of the > body] acting as cause which substain the body and its faculties, is > here called materiality of food" > =========================== Of course salt is pa~n~natti. But from the quote you give here, Ken, from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, so is nutrition!! And this is one of the problems I have with parts of Abhidhamma and some of the commentaries, namely *lots* of merely conventional objects, like nutrition, life faculty, femininity, and masculinity being treated as actual phenomena (paramattha dhammas). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28590 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Howard, I generally agree with what you say, and from what I saw in your messages so far I think we have much more to agree on than to disagree. The only exception I would make in relation to this message is that I don’t see a reason why the so called paramatha dhammas, like your example of hardness, cannot be divided into parts. I know it is not possible to realize this with our normal senses, but my view is that since more concrete conditioned objects can be divided almost indefinitely (science is still trying to find how far this can go) I don’t see why this should not be applied to all dhammas. If we can realize that more concrete conditioned dhammas can be divided into parts, one can infer that the breakdown into parts is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. If you say hardness cannot be subdivided there is an assumption that this is as far as it goes, and that implies some kind of enduring thing in that hardness which does not allow for further reduction, and that in my view is almost the same as arguing for an essence. Metta Michael >========================== > Actually, Michael, I think you may have just perfectly hit on the >distinction between pa~n~natti and paramattha dhamma! You wrote "To say >that any >of those objects truly exist one has to identify something in those objects >that make them what they are. But if you separate the parts of a table >there is >no table to be found in >them. The table has nothing in it that can be taken as its ‘tableness’ >that >justifies the table being something in its own right." Now what you say >here >is quite correct. Actually, there is no table at all, except as the >intended >but not actually existing referent of a thought constructed from numerous >experiences. > However, what you said does not apply to a paramattha dhamma such >as a >hardness. There *are* no parts to a hardness. To find a hardness, there are >no parts to look in. It simply is an arising and ceasing condition, a >phenomenon. And while there is no "tableness" to be found in a so called >table or in >any of its parts, there *is* "hardness" to be found in hardness - it is the >hardness, itself! A hardness is a condition that, when arisen, exists. But >it >doesn't exist on its own, or from its own side, because its very existence >is >completely dependent on the coming together of other conditions, and, so, >it is a >"dependent existent". Now I don't know what *you* mean by "true existence". >If >you mean independent existence, well, there is no such thing, which I know >is >a proposition with which you concur. The only *true* existence, actually, >is >dependent existence. Hardness is a dependent existent, and it is such that >it >is distinguishable (though not separable from or independent of) other >dependent existents. > >With metta, >Howard 28591 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Howard] Hi, Dan - In a message dated 1/2/04 11:17:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, dalthor p@s... writes: > Great comments, Howard, but where did the "mere" come from in "mere > rules and rituals"? I don't see it in the Pali. Do you throw it in > because you are resistant to the idea of dropping an attachment to > rules and rituals? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I know little Pali, Dan. I've seen this rendered as "mere rules and rituals," and simply assumed that was correct. As far as being resistent to dropping rules and rituals, well, no, my unfortunate inclination tends more in the opposite direction! ;-) -------------------------------------------------- > > And I have no disagreement whatsoever with your comment: "To observe > rules that are useful and well given and that, when followed, can > have auspicious consequences is simply good sense." If one were to > say: "it is a bad idea to follow sensible rules," I'd be sorely > tempted to respond with, "You fool!" and risk suffering the fires of > hell. > > Also, you write: "But, certainly he didn't teach actions for 45 years > (in sutta and vinaya) only to advise against these actions." Right > again! Did I write anything that suggest otherwise? Please help me > find such a comment so I can correct it! > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I didn't presume you were throwing out the baby with the bath water. I was merely trying to do my part in distinguishing the two. --------------------------------------------------- > > Metta and mudita, > > Dan > > ====================== And to you, metta and mudita, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28592 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 1/2/04 3:11:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > Hello Howard, > > I generally agree with what you say, and from what I saw in your messages so > > far I think we have much more to agree on than to disagree. The only > exception I would make in relation to this message is that I don’t see a > reason why the so called paramatha dhammas, like your example of hardness, > cannot be divided into parts. I know it is not possible to realize this with > > our normal senses, but my view is that since more concrete conditioned > objects can be divided almost indefinitely (science is still trying to find > how far this can go) I don’t see why this should not be applied to all > dhammas. If we can realize that more concrete conditioned dhammas can be > divided into parts, one can infer that the breakdown into parts is a > characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. If you say hardness cannot be > subdivided there is an assumption that this is as far as it goes, and that > implies some kind of enduring thing in that hardness which does not allow > for further reduction, and that in my view is almost the same as arguing for > > an essence. > > Metta > Michael > ============================ If I could be unequivocallly shown that phenomena such as hardnesses are compounded from (and not just conditioned by) other phenomena, then I would become a Gelugpa (as I'm guessing you are, or have an affinity for), and I would adopt a thoroughgoing concept-only perspective. (But I don't anticipate being so shown. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28593 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:06pm Subject: I'm Back! Hi Friends, Metta, Rob M :-) 28594 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:18pm Subject: Re: I'm Back! G'day RobM, :-) Happy New Year! How was Canada? A little cooler than KL, I expect? Getting right down to business :-)... care to browse the "Contraception and the First Precept" Thread, and see if you have anything to add? Starts at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28504 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Friends, > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 28595 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 1:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was [Howard] Dear Howard, I was wondering about the "mere" because I recall seeing "[mere] rules and rituals", and I took the [mere] as a modern add-on to help counter the inevitable, post-modern, "well, throw the rules out then!" response to the notion of silabbataparamasa. With much appreciation, Dan 28596 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 3:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Howard, Howard: If I could be unequivocallly shown that phenomena such as hardnesses are compounded from (and not just conditioned by) other phenomena, then I would become a Gelugpa (as I'm guessing you are, or have an affinity for), and I would adopt a thoroughgoing concept-only perspective. (But I don't anticipate being so shown. ;-) Michael: The more I think about the idea of phenomena as a composite the less sense it makes that such a composite can be subdivided only up to a certain point. What could justify no further decomposition? Only the assumption that a certain level of true existence has been reached. But on the other hand a correct understanding of conditionality negates the possibility of any kind of true existence of any conditioned dhammas. Therefore in my mind it only makes sense to consider all phenomena as compounded (without the possibility of pointing towards and end to the decomposition) and subject to conditionality. I am not a follower of any of the Tibetan Buddhist schools. I started as a Theravadin and still feel very identified with the teachings of the Canon. I like to take large doses of the suttas and a few pinches of the abhidhamma. But yes, I have read a couple of very good books on Madhyamaka and have found that there is a direct link to the teachings of the Suttas. I don’t know what you mean by ‘concept only’ but this does not sound as madhyamaka and more like yogacara, which I am not very fond of. Metta Michael 28597 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 3:07pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Robert, Good to be reading you directly, though I read everything you write. It would look from what you wrote, that killing in a Buddhist sense is rendering the body in such a state that it cannot support consciousness. I am very happy to accept this, and leave it at that. The above has raised some questions, purely questions of interest, not questions of doubt, and if you would see benefit in it, I would appreciate your, and anyone else's take on the questions. In the Buddhist scheme of things, are consciousness and corporeality (body) necessarily co-dependant? (I'm thinking about beings of an arupa and rupa nature) My understanding of Paticca Samuppada is that the mind precedes the body, and that the mind is not subject to killing and death. Would the rendering of a body so that it could not support consciousness have any effect at all on the Rebirth thought that brought the body about? All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" > wrote: > > > > Is it the Buddhist viewpoint that a sperm is not a living thing? > > That would be a bit arbitrary, don't you think? > > > ========== > Dear Herman, > In fact it is in the Buddhist viewpoint that sperm is not living. > Buddhist texts say that once the `blood'[egg] from the mother mix > with the matter{sperm] from the father then consciousness may > arise. "It amounts to no more than a drop of cream of ghee on a > single fibre of a new-born [kid's] wool, and is known as the embryo > in the first stage" (Visuddhimagga XVII 152). > > As I read the text new consciouness can arise with this matter at > any time once the sperm has begun to enter the egg. It could be > immediately or it could be hours later or possibly in rare > situations even days later. But there has to be first the mixing of > the sperm with the egg. Before that the egg or sperm alone is not a > suitable support for consciousness. > So in the case of the morning after pill there is no problem from a > buddhist perspective when it works to stop sperm meeting egg. > The possible killing only occurs if the sperm has already penetrated > the egg and then it still depends on whether a new being is present. > So one who takes the pill would not know whether they are killing or > not. If they take it an hour or 2 after sex then the odds are it > would stop conception before sperm had met egg. But it is taken up > to 2-3 days after sex and at that stage the odds are higher that a > new life is present. > robertk 28598 From: Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 1/2/04 6:05:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > Hello Howard, > > Howard: > If I could be unequivocallly shown that phenomena such as hardnesses > are compounded from (and not just conditioned by) other phenomena, then I > would > become a Gelugpa (as I'm guessing you are, or have an affinity for), and I > would adopt a thoroughgoing concept-only perspective. (But I don't > anticipate > being so shown. ;-) > > Michael: > The more I think about the idea of phenomena as a composite the less sense > it makes that such a composite can be subdivided only up to a certain point. > > What could justify no further decomposition? Only the assumption that a > certain level of true existence has been reached. But on the other hand a > correct understanding of conditionality negates the possibility of any kind > of true existence of any conditioned dhammas. Therefore in my mind it only > makes sense to consider all phenomena as compounded (without the possibility > > of pointing towards and end to the decomposition) and subject to > conditionality. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: But what are any of a hardness or a pleasant feeling or an anger composed of? -------------------------------------------------- > > I am not a follower of any of the Tibetan Buddhist schools. I started as a > Theravadin and still feel very identified with the teachings of the Canon. I > > like to take large doses of the suttas and a few pinches of the abhidhamma. > But yes, I have read a couple of very good books on Madhyamaka and have > found that there is a direct link to the teachings of the Suttas. I don’t > know what you mean by ‘concept only’ but this does not sound as madhyamaka > and more like yogacara, which I am not very fond of. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh! Interesting! I'm very much of a yogacarin my self - or, better, a Theravadin with a Yogacarin overlay! ;-)) My phenomenalist take on things makes me a natural vijnanavadin. The reason I mentioned Gelugpa is that their position seems to be that of their being no paramattha dhammas, and of every "existent" being a merely conventional existent. But forget about Gelugpa. It doesn't matter. --------------------------------------------------- > > Metta > Michael > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28599 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 2, 2004 4:08pm Subject: Re: Contraception and the First Precept Hi Sarah, Rest assured that I look forward to comments from everyone, no invitation required. My quoting of the Udana sutta was purely in relation to the question of the M-A pill, not about "seclusion and inactivity" which is a hobby horse of mine, and the Buddha's from all appearances. There is another Udana sutta, namely 2.8 as found at http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn2.htm which might be relevant to the issues surrounding conception and contraception. It is the story of Suppavasa, who after being childless for seven years ends up in labour for seven days and finally bears a healthy child. The Buddha and his followers are fed by Suppavasa for seven days during which the following occurs. And Suppavâsa said to herself; "My son is conversing with the 'Captain of the Faith' (Sariputta)." And she rejoiced exceedingly and became enraptured and was filled with joy. And the Blessed One said to Suppavâsa, the daughter of Koliya; "Suppavâsa, would you have another son such as this one?" "I would have, Blessed One, seven other sons such as this one." And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, breathed forth this solemn utterance:-- "Joylessness in the guise of joy, delight in the guise of misery, Pain in the guise of happiness, take possession of the thoughtless". As to the question of following precepts, the Udana provides a very counter-intuitive example. Udana 3.6 tells of a monk who was in the habit of reviling other monks and calling them outcasts. This was brought to the attention of the Buddha who found no fault in the bahaviour, but exclaimed "From whom no deceit or pride proceeds, In whom avarice is annihilated, Who has got rid of the notion 'this is mine', Who is passionless and has put away wrath, Who is freed from all cares, That Bhikkhu is a Brahmana and a Samana." All the best to you, Sarah, and Jon, and keep up the great work with dsg. Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Herman, > > --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > What do you reckon about this ? > > > > From the Udana 1 as found at > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/udn/udn1.htm > .... > I know you weren't asking my opinion, but you may find it interesting (or > not;-)) to look at the commentary details I included about Sangamaji > before: > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11897.html > > You've mentioned in your other discussions that:`a far better indicator of > what a person believes is what they do. What a person does is a teaching > of what they believe.' This is a good point and as Dan has emphasised > `part of the fruit of understanding is that there is a decrease in > attachment...' and so on. We can test the teachings for ourselves. > However, I think the Udana you quote from above is an excellent example of > how others with their own views may interpret such actions and changes in > a very different manner. > > This is a bit of a hobby-horse of mine at the moment, in case anyone > hasn't noticed;-) Also, I don't think the point of the sutta is to suggest > that we should all follow a lifestyle of `seclusion and inactivity' to > create better opportunities for insight into the Dhamma. The practice > (patipatti) you refer to elsewhere is the understanding of conditioned > realities and the danger of attachment. I'll sign off with another sutta > relevant for a few of your threads. > > Very good banner examples btw, Herman;-) ;-) Happy NY to all your family. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn05-005.html > > Then, having understood that "This is Mara the Evil One," she replied to > him in verses: > > "If even a hundred-thousand rapists > came across me like this, > I wouldn't stir a hair. > I'd feel no terror," > > More discussion when we get to Bhikkhuni samyutta (SN5), I'm sure. > =============================================